Bee w/ wobble

Well...after having our little 2010 female Bee for about 2 months now, I held her last night and she has a pretty serious wobble! This is incredibly depressing being that we have always wanted a Bee, finally bought one with no visual signs of having a wobble, but now she has it bad. How could it have come on this fast and strong with no warnings??? Could she possibly grow out of it as she has grown into it?

My next question may be controversial. Can/would you breed her? I have heard of people breeding Bees/Spiders with a wobble that poduce visually wobble free offspring and vice versa. What do I do??!!

please let me know what you think! :confused:

Thanks,

I'm very sorry to hear about your snake. Unfortunately this is why I don't like the Spider morph and I will never have one in my collection.

As far as whether you should breed her or not, I believe that is a decision you must make. It's common knowledge that most if not all Spiders and Spider morphs exhibit some degree of wobble, but people are breeding them all the time. Even though it is your decision, if you do decide to breed her hopefully you will make any of your customers aware of this condition before selling them.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I'm very sorry to hear about your snake. Unfortunately this is why I don't like the Spider morph and I will never have one in my collection.

As far as whether you should breed her or not, I believe that is a decision you must make. It's common knowledge that most if not all Spiders and Spider morphs exhibit some degree of wobble, but people are breeding them all the time. Even though it is your decision, if you do decide to breed her hopefully you will make any of your customers aware of this condition before selling them.

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Were are just heart broken over this! We shopped so hard to avoid this disorder (at least to this severity). Being that she is only a 2010...breeding her is not something we need to worry about any time soon, but I want to hear everyones views and opinions before we cross that bridge. If I did breed her...I would certainly notify the buyers.

Thanks for your opinion.

They ALL wobble. There is no more reason now for you to not breed your snake
than there was before you noticed the wobble. If you don't want to have/breed snakes that wobble your only choice is to not work with spiders.


When you say "a pretty serious wobble" what do you mean? I have seen some before that sit with there head upside down almost 24hrs a day and some that literally roll around in the tub. Is yours that bad?

Spiders and their combos do wobble/spin which is why some people chose not to work with them.

Now they all wobble to a certain degree it can be extreme to very light (making people say or think theirs does not wobble/spin)

It can be very obvious from day 1 and slightly get to the point to where it is hardly noticeable but the opposite can be true too going from hardly noticeable to very obvious.

Things such as excitement and stress can accentuate the behavior.
Your be wobble might be more noticeable at time it might gradually be less noticeable as she get older, there is no guarantee a way or another.

Now as far as breeding animal exhibiting very slight (unnoticeable) wobble have been known to produce train wrecks and vice versa.

Ultimately the choice is YOURS and I believe anyone thinking about getting a spider or one of its combo should do some research and know what to expect and then decide whether they want to work with them or not.

Spiders and their combos are just not for everyone.

Thanks guys/gals for your input

I would say her wobble is serious, but I would not call her a "train wreck". She sits with her head slightly cocked to one side (noticeably different than before) and sort of 'cork screws' when she moves and climbs. It's worse than any I have personally seen before.

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Originally Posted by J.Vandegrift

I have seen some before that sit with there head upside down almost 24hrs a day and some that literally roll around in the tub. Is yours that bad?

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Did these animals feed okay? How will this impact her feeding response? I have not offered food since this discovery.

Most spiders eat just fine even with a train wreck wobble, most likely what you are seeing is brought on by stress. If I read correctly you have had this snake for 2 months and not handled very often, she probably just got a little nervous and got to spinning. Mine seems to do this too, she didn't wobble at all according to the breeder (who is a friend, he wasn’t trying to just make a sale) when I got her home she stated to spin in her cage. I have found that if I pick her up and point her to her hide she will stop, crawl in and relax. I have noticed that her wobble is actually worse when she is actively looking for food.

As for breeding I understand that it is different to see the wobble in person, rather than just reading about it. It does not seem that the severity of the spider parents wobble dictates the severity of the off- springs wobble. I wouldn’t worry about it, just make sure you only sell to people who know about and understand this issue.

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Originally Posted by ed4281

Most spiders eat just fine even with a train wreck wobble, most likely what you are seeing is brought on by stress. If I read correctly you have had this snake for 2 months and not handled very often, she probably just got a little nervous and got to spinning. Mine seems to do this too, she didn't wobble at all according to the breeder (who is a friend, he wasn’t trying to just make a sale) when I got her home she stated to spin in her cage. I have found that if I pick her up and point her to her hide she will stop, crawl in and relax. I have noticed that her wobble is actually worse when she is actively looking for food.

As for breeding I understand that it is different to see the wobble in person, rather than just reading about it. It does not seem that the severity of the spider parents wobble dictates the severity of the off- springs wobble. I wouldn’t worry about it, just make sure you only sell to people who know about and understand this issue.

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Unfortunately this isn't the case. I rarely handle her as she is a 'troubled feeder' and I have been trying to fight this battle as well. However...I periodically will check in on her (without disturbing her) and I will find her climbing around cork screwing and rolling her head/neck upside down. When she finally makes it back to her hide...she will lay her head down (slightly cocked), but otherwise in a normal position.

Does anyone know if temp changes or other climatic changes can affect this? I have heard that stress can bring this on, but the only changes that could be stressing her are the seasonal weather changes or a similar atmospheric condition? Everything else has been unchanged.

My biggest worry is that she has already been difficult to get feeding...I hope this doesn't impede any progress we may have made?

All spiders have wobbles. Now, only some have it bad.
But there are some circumstances that make the wobble appear more, and more severe that will go away once they're fixed.

1. Stress, they wobble a lot more when stressed (if it's bad, it gets worse, if not noticeable, you start to see it a little)

2. Feeding, sometimes can bring out the wobble in a spider morph.

3. Drop in temperature. Was it on the cold side when you picked him up? If so, how cold is it? This could also mix with stress making it appear all at once when no wobble was seen before.

If one of those things went towards the problem, then once the cause is gone (warm, in the tub, done eating) symptoms should go back to the norm.

Unfortunately, you'll never find a wobble free spider, ever, so either try not to be heart broken (You can still love the little guy/girl!) or stay away from the morph.:)

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Originally Posted by A.VinczeBPs

All spiders have wobbles. Now, only some have it bad.
But there are some circumstances that make the wobble appear more, and more severe that will go away once they're fixed.

1. Stress, they wobble a lot more when stressed (if it's bad, it gets worse, if not noticeable, you start to see it a little)

2. Feeding, sometimes can bring out the wobble in a spider morph.

3. Drop in temperature. Was it on the cold side when you picked him up? If so, how cold is it? This could also mix with stress making it appear all at once when no wobble was seen before.

If one of those things went towards the problem, then once the cause is gone (warm, in the tub, done eating) symptoms should go back to the norm.

Unfortunately, you'll never find a wobble free spider, ever, so either try not to be heart broken (You can still love the little guy/girl!) or stay away from the morph.:)

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I love the morph, so i won't be staying away from it. hearing all of your input/support makes me feel a little better about it.

That being said...the ambient room temp has changed by about 8-10 degrees (to the cool side), but I have not messed with the thermostat at all. Should I try warming things up a bit?

Thanks for your advice.

I have a male and female spider and I have never seen the wobble in them yet. I know it can come and go or come and stay. They are both eating very well and putting on weight just like they should. The female was my only problem eater when I first got her. Now she is pounding mice and rats like there is no tomorrow. It is sad that this morph has such a bad problem. If my snakes start a really serious wobble I wouldn't think twice about not breeding them. What is baffling is that nobody knows what causes it and why it is mostly happening with Spiders.

The wobble appears to be linked directly to the spider gene, and cannot therefore be bred out. We know this because the spider is one of the most out-crossed morphs there is, because it does not have a super form.

Your bee's offspring may wobble a lot, or they may wobble very little, even show no sign of it at all. You'll probably have a few of each in every clutch--and you would have if your bee had shown no sign of a wobble, too.

Wobble does not affect feeding response. My spider has a moderate wobble, and he's always been game to eat whatever is offered to him--if he misses, he comes back around and tries again, which some of my balls would never do.

My male has produced wobbler hatchlings, and non-wobbler hatchlings. It appears to be as random as the amount of white on a pied.

No normal animals from any spider clutch I have produced have shown signs of a wobble. Wobble in normals or other morphs may be due to neurological or inner ear problems unrelated to the spider wobble.

I have to deal with this issue, and posted about it about a month ago (and got some negative comments because I posted such a common issue). My Spider seemed to be virtually wobble free at first, but at times can show signs of it when stressed. I've also got a Bumblebee (Spider Pastel) coming in 2 days, and still have no reserves of owning these animals. What it comes down to is that they are pets, can have great lives and still have the wobble.

My suggestion is to not worry about it. Take the best care you can for the animal and it will have a long happy (stress free) life!

Thanks guys!

I got her out last night and she was kind or crazy at first, then she settled down a little bit and I let her crawl on the ground and she looked a lot better than I was expecting. It definitely seems as though stress/excitement cause this to spike.

Our other issue still remains...with or without the wobble she still has not accepted a meal on her own since she arrived from the breeder nearly two months ago. She took several meals before we had her shipped, then stopped accepting meals on her own. i don't know if the stress from shipping and the new enviroment caused this?

Thanks again for all the good words and advice guys!

Well, the first thing is that you shouldn't be handling her until after she's feeding for you.

You need to reduce her stress as much as possible, and go over your husbandry. How is her current cage different from the one she was raised in? Are temps and humidity correct? Does she have the right size and shape for her hides? Do your best to make her current cage more closely resemble the one she's used to. Do not offer food more often than every 3 or 4 days. Do not disturb her for things other than changing water or cleaning.

Ball pythons do not feed if they don't feel secure.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, the first thing is that you shouldn't be handling her until after she's feeding for you.

You need to reduce her stress as much as possible, and go over your husbandry. How is her current cage different from the one she was raised in? Are temps and humidity correct? Does she have the right size and shape for her hides? Do your best to make her current cage more closely resemble the one she's used to. Do not offer food more often than every 3 or 4 days. Do not disturb her for things other than changing water or cleaning.

Ball pythons do not feed if they don't feel secure.

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I had her out last night to clean urates. Other than that she is out rarely to have her weight checked. We aren't actually handling her as we do our other snakes.

Her setup is as close to what the breeder had as we can get (through discussions with her). It's a shoebox tub with a small hide on the cool side and one on the warm side w/ a small water bowl between them. She is on news print and has a basking spot in the low 90's controlled by a Ranco T-Stat and 3" flexwatt. Ambient temp is in the low to mid 80's. Humidity is 50-60 percent.

We offer one live mouse (fuzzy to hopper size) every Saturday overnight (making sure the mouse is too small to harm the snake of course). She is currently sitting at 80 grams, but doesn't look too skinny yet.

At what point do I consider assist feeding her? Any advice or tricks I can try?

I would try filling her tub almost completely with balled up newspaper and offer a bigger mouse that what you have been. I would put the mouse in the cage around midnight while leaving all of the lights in the room off and then check back in about an hour.

2 months is a long time for a snake that size to go without food. If she does not eat in the next couple weeks you may need to assist feed her.

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Originally Posted by J.Vandegrift

I would try filling her tub almost completely with balled up newspaper and offer a bigger mouse that what you have been. I would put the mouse in the cage around midnight while leaving all of the lights in the room off and then check back in about an hour.

2 months is a long time for a snake that size to go without food. If she does not eat in the next couple weeks you may need to assist feed her.

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How long should I have the balled paper in with her before offering the next meal?

Thanks for the advice.

I don't mean to hijack the thread or anything but I'm having a hard time understanding what the problem is with the wobble/spin? Does this affect the snake at all? I have bred spiders before with no problems. They eat and breed fine.

So what is the problem? Do people not like to see them do it? Is that it?

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Originally Posted by BlckPhntm

So what is the problem? Do people not like to see them do it? Is that it?

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For me it's simply a defect that I don't wish to propagate. It would be the same for any other snake with a major defect such as a kinked spine or born without eyes. I'm sure they can live reasonably well and I wouldn't cull it if it could lead a semi-normal life, but I feel that they shouldn't be propagated just because they happen to have a different paint job.

Nobody knows what it's like for the snake to live with that condition, but I imagine that it's difficult for even a primitive animal like a snake. Imagine if you had a condition where you couldn't control your basic motor skills?

There are so many other morphs out there, why continue to breed snakes that have an obvious detrimental defect?

Well, spiders do not show any signs of distress due to their condition--as has been widely noted, they tend to be good feeders, and many are considered tame and personable--signs of a secure and unstressed animal.
Since they are not in distress, why not propagate them?

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Well, spiders do not show any signs of distress due to their condition--as has been widely noted, they tend to be good feeders, and many are considered tame and personable--signs of a secure and unstressed animal.
Since they are not in distress, why not propagate them?

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Just because they aren't distressed doesn't mean they're fine. Going back to my reply, would you breed snakes that were eyeless or kinked? I'm sure those aren't distressed, either.

I think everyone has their limits as to what is acceptable and what isn't. Personally, I feel a snake that spins and can't move normally and freely isn't worth the odd pattern.

I may have offended some people because Spiders and their morphs are very popular, but that wasn't my intent. I was asked for my opinion as someone who doesn't like Spiders, and I gave my personal opinion.

blckphntm, the spider wobble is extremely unnatural. You don't have to have any experience with snakes to see a spider wobble and think that there is something wrong with the snake.

The fact that these snakes seem to thrive in captivity is itself surprising as heck to me, when I think about all the human disorders that cause motor problems.

It almost looks a bit like parkinson's syndrome to me, which is a bit disturbing until you get past the initial shock factor.

That said, spiders DO in fact thrive in captivity and I don't think it's wrong for anyone to work with these animals, but I hope that those who do respect the views of people who are completely turned off of spiders because of the balance and motor control issues.

i have an adult female spider who when you first look at her she looks normal but after you pick her up then you see her head looping around but this does not affect her at all she is my best eater and does not even show the wobble when she is going to eat

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

blckphntm, the spider wobble is extremely unnatural. You don't have to have any experience with snakes to see a spider wobble and think that there is something wrong with the snake.

The fact that these snakes seem to thrive in captivity is itself surprising as heck to me, when I think about all the human disorders that cause motor problems.

It almost looks a bit like parkinson's syndrome to me, which is a bit disturbing until you get past the initial shock factor.

That said, spiders DO in fact thrive in captivity and I don't think it's wrong for anyone to work with these animals, but I hope that those who do respect the views of people who are completely turned off of spiders because of the balance and motor control issues.

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I for one think that this is what makes Ball python morphs so great. You can totally avoid some morphs and still have buckets full of choices. Theres enough different stuff out for everyone without having pee in someone's kiddie pool (stole that from Kevin) People not liking spiders is totally fine with me. I enjoy them and their many combo's..

The most important thing is can she eat ? If she can then carry on as usual.

Even if your Bee didnt wobble does not mean her kids would not. If you want the beauty of this morph then accept it and enjoy the craziness.

Act like a Proud Southerner and put her on the front porch for the world to see, right next to the alzheimer patient. Crazy is not bad just a interesting fact of life.

I have a bee with a minimal wobble, very minimal seems to only come out when hes about to be sexed. Kinda weird. I fell in love with bumblebees at first sight and so when I did my research I was head over heels and decided the wobble is nothing I can change just like a normal snake looking well normal.;)

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Originally Posted by demjor19

How long should I have the balled paper in with her before offering the next meal?

Thanks for the advice.

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I would wait a few days and try again.

@xdeus How is the wobble detrimetal? Ive never heard if a spider die from a wobble/spin vs kinks from cinnys, super cinny, caramels, etc.

@mainbutter I do understand the wobble is not natural, anyone can see that. However, they do fine in captivity.

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Originally Posted by ChuckSM

Act like a Proud Southerner and put her on the front porch for the world to see, right next to the alzheimer patient. Crazy is not bad just a interesting fact of life.

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LOL! Thanks! She has been my avatar for quite some time. Definitely our favorite pain in the butt snake!

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Originally Posted by J.Vandegrift

I would wait a few days and try again.

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Thanks...I'll give this a shot.

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Originally Posted by BlckPhntm

@xdeus How is the wobble detrimetal? Ive never heard if a spider die from a wobble/spin vs kinks from cinnys, super cinny, caramels, etc.

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I've never heard of a snake dying because of kinks, although I'm sure it could happen if severe enough. I have, however, heard of Spiders being culled because their condition was too severe and they were unable to function.

The fact is that they can not lead a "normal" life. Imagine you're a snake and you're trying to use your instincts to stay still or you want to explore something, but are unable to because your body is too busy doing its own thing. Sure, they can eat and breed like a normal snake, but their defect is still a handicap.

For arguments sake, let's use my other example of an eyeless snake. I'm sure they can breed and eat just fine in captivity. Would you have any qualms about breeding them because you liked the pattern on their skin? You may or may not, but I personally wouldn't want to continue that genetic handicap.

I actually first bought my Spider before realizing there was a wobble. issue I did my research on "Ball Pyhtons" and not specific morphs. So for me it was something I had to deal with after getting the Spider male. But he isn't bad at all (as of now), and does very well. he is a great pet, is not agressive at all and eats every time for me (F/T hoppers).

As for the wobble beaing an issue, you really can't relate it to the natural order fo things. If the animal can live in captivity with a wobble but can't in the wild, that doesn't mean it is a serious issue and the animal shouldn't be bread. After all, a majority of these morphs have color patterns that would make it difficult to live in the BP's natural habitiat and be able to blend in like a wild type would. But that isn't a reason to not propogate them.

I look at it this way; These designer morphs are man made with very little genetic variation. Treat them as pets and care for them as best you can to suit their needs.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I've never heard of a snake dying because of kinks, although I'm sure it could happen if severe enough. I have, however, heard of Spiders being culled because their condition was too severe and they were unable to function.

The fact is that they can not lead a "normal" life. Imagine you're a snake and you're trying to use your instincts to stay still or you want to explore something, but are unable to because your body is too busy doing its own thing. Sure, they can eat and breed like a normal snake, but their defect is still a handicap.

For arguments sake, let's use my other example of an eyeless snake. I'm sure they can breed and eat just fine in captivity. Would you have any qualms about breeding them because you liked the pattern on their skin? You may or may not, but I personally wouldn't want to continue that genetic handicap.

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Not sure I agree with this 100%. A spider who corkscrews does not necessarily mean he DIDN'T WANT to corkscrew. If you look at the videos out there, they corkscrew when they want to explore something. They lay still if they don't.

It's not quite the same as an eyeless snake. First of all, I have never heard of an eyeless snake being genetic. But, let's just say you got a morph that consistently produces an eyeless snake... A blind snake has lost a primary body function, although it still has other senses to compensate. You can't say a corkscrewy spider has lost a function unless he is one of the rare "train wreck" occurrences. He achieves his objective by different means - looks kinda weird to us - but it's his way of doing it. There's nothing to give evidence that it hurts the snake. An eyeless snake who thrives in captivity does not necessarily mean it needs to be culled. It is a matter of what you accept as "within the bounds of normal".

A trait is considered a defect because it looks/acts "different" than normal. But then, all morphs are "different" than normal... we just have accepted those insane colors as "cool" instead of "defect". I mean, a BEL can be considered a defect - a snake without color...

So, if you see eyelessness or corkscrewy as normal (a cool trait for a certain morph) having no evidence that it hurts the snake whatsoever or prevents it from performing all its necessary functions, I don't see an issue. It all then boils down to preference. Just like some people have no desire to own a white snake, some people have no desire to own a wobbly snake.

Train wrecks are different. These are the ones that has the wobble so bad that it can't find direction so it can't perform certain functions - like strike at prey. These are rare occurrences. This would be then synonymous to any bp morph that is born without a head, for instance. There is no way that snake can survive. So, if a breeding pair of bp's produce a headless snake in one clutch but doesn't produce it in another... would you continue breeding the pair? It's all up to you. I wouldn't see it as bad if you continue to breed them.

I personally think my spider's manifestation of a wobble - the little vibration he does with his head right before a strike - is awesome. It tells us exactly when he is going to strike so we can make sure our fingers are out of range. It also looks cute when he does his puppy-dog periscope position...

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Originally Posted by anatess

A spider who corkscrews does not necessarily mean he DIDN'T WANT to corkscrew.

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Now that's just silly. Maybe I should feel sorry for my normal snakes that might want to corkscrew but can't. :confused:

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Originally Posted by anatess

An eyeless snake who thrives in captivity does not necessarily mean it needs to be culled. It is a matter of what you accept as "within the bounds of normal".

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I agree and that was the point I was making. I don't believe Spiders should be culled, but I also don't believe they should be propagated because they will all have this defect. I wouldn't breed eyeless snakes just to get a cool pattern as well. I think everyone has their own limits as far as what is acceptable and what isn't, and the guarantee of a Spider spin isn't acceptable to me.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Now that's just silly. Maybe I should feel sorry for my normal snakes that might want to corkscrew but can't. :confused:

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The corkscrew movement is manifested in some spiders who goes one direction then decides to go a different direction - instead of turning the head on the shortest route to the direction it wants to face, like non-wobblers do - they turn their head the opposite direction, the longer route, to achieve the same objective. The facts are - the spider achieves their objective but from a different angle. Logically extrapolating - there is no evidence that a spider "can't" turn their heads in the shorter route - it could be that they have "preference" to go the other route... which could be because they do not experience a "negative feedback" for going the corkscrew route. Hence, my statement that it may very well be "preference"... just like a kid who prefers to write with his left hand instead of his right.

Do you feel bad for your kid who can't write with his left hand?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I agree and that was the point I was making. I don't believe Spiders should be culled, but I also don't believe they should be propagated because they will all have this defect. I wouldn't breed eyeless snakes just to get a cool pattern as well. I think everyone has their own limits as far as what is acceptable and what isn't, and the guarantee of a Spider spin isn't acceptable to me.

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Dude, I think you have a completely different understanding of "Spider spin". I'm not sure if you're just going by what you read or if you've actually seen a multitude of spiders in Reptile shows...

A spider is not guaranteed to "spin". Yes, it is guaranteed that he would have some kind of wobble - most of them ranging from very slight to undetectable. The undetectable ones are commonly manifested in a less-than-accurate strike at prey or the puppy-dog periscope. But, from your statement you make it sound like all spiders "corkscrew". Not so. Not even close. A giant majority of spiders are in the slight to undetectable wobble range. You know why I say that? Because, there are a BUNCH of people owning spiders and spider combos and only a very FEW report a wobble such as what is expressed by the OP.

I think it is safe to say that the severe cases of the wobble occur in the same frequency as other defects. And yes, we continue to breed the other morphs even when there's a possiblity that you can end up with a snake without eyes, snake without heads, snake with a deformed jaw, snake with bent tails, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by anatess

- it could be that they have "preference" to go the other route... which could be because they do not experience a "negative feedback" for going the corkscrew route. Hence, my statement that it may very well be "preference"... just like a kid who prefers to write with his left hand instead of his right.

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That is some extremely convoluted logic right there. Instead of trying to fit your observations to meet your expectations, perhaps you should look at it in a more elementary perspective. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Spider can't use the shorter route to turn its head. There's no evidence that a snake can't do multiplication, but I'm pretty sure it can't do that either. The facts are that Spiders have a problem with motor control... they are UNABLE to move the way nature intended them to move.

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Originally Posted by anatess

A spider is not guaranteed to "spin". Yes, it is guaranteed that he would have some kind of wobble - most of them ranging from very slight to undetectable. I think it is safe to say that the severe cases of the wobble occur in the same frequency as other defects. And yes, we continue to breed the other morphs even when there's a possiblity that you can end up with a snake without eyes, snake without heads, snake with a deformed jaw, snake with bent tails, etc. etc.

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Spin, wobble, corkscrew, getting the wimbly-wamblies... call it whatever you like. It's a genetic affliction (probably neurological) that affects their basic motor skills. Apparently the condition can change and a seemingly normal Spider will turn into a train wreck later on in its life, but the fact remains that they all have it and nobody really knows when their Spider might change for the worse.

I can't speak for others, but *I* don't find it cute or endearing to see a snake jerk around, spin, corkscrew, or wobble when they should move like the millions of other graceful snakes that inhabit this planet. This is why *I* don't want to breed Spiders. I'm not sure why you have such a difficult time grasping that concept. I'm not telling you what *you* should do, or anyone else for that matter. I was asked for *my* opinion on why I don't want to breed Spiders, and I gave it.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

Just because they aren't distressed doesn't mean they're fine. Going back to my reply, would you breed snakes that were eyeless or kinked? I'm sure those aren't distressed, either.

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That's an interesting question--the answer is, eyeless snakes are rarely able to feed normally, since they lack the sensory stimulation of tracking movement to spur their feeding response. In addition, eyeless is frequently associated with jaw deformities, and sudden death before maturity (I have had a few snakes with this condition due to incubation temperature spikes).
Kinking can also prove to be fatal--yet people still breed caramel albinos, which are prone to it.

I have not heard instances of the spider wobble leading to fatality, or preventing feeding.

So yes--in many cases, eyeless snakes are physically distressed, and kinked snakes may die due to their kinking. I would not breed them. In fact, I have no plan to acquire caramel albinos for that reason (instead, I want ultramels).

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I think everyone has their limits as to what is acceptable and what isn't. Personally, I feel a snake that spins and can't move normally and freely isn't worth the odd pattern.

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That's certainly a valid opinion, but you shouldn't feel that those who choose to breed them are being unethical. We humans deliberately raise animals with aberrant behavior--waltzing mice and fainting goats are two examples. If it does them no harm, and they are not in any apparent distress, why not?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I may have offended some people because Spiders and their morphs are very popular, but that wasn't my intent. I was asked for my opinion as someone who doesn't like Spiders, and I gave my personal opinion.

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I certainly wouldn't have taken offense to it--I just wanted to point out the difference between choosing to avoid breeding an animal because its aberrations make you uneasy, and it being unethical to breed that animal because of quality of life issues.
Spiders do not appear to suffer from a reduced quality of life, so there should not be any serious ethical concerns involved in breeding them. Their behavior is certainly quirky and unusual, but if it doesn't bother them, why should it bother us?

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Originally Posted by xdeus

I've never heard of a snake dying because of kinks, although I'm sure it could happen if severe enough. I have, however, heard of Spiders being culled because their condition was too severe and they were unable to function.

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Severe kinks do not allow the snake to swallow its prey, therefore not being able to eat and dies some time after birth of starvation. THAT is detrimental. Ralph Davis himself has said this on youtube if you need any proof.

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Originally Posted by xdeus

That is some extremely convoluted logic right there. Instead of trying to fit your observations to meet your expectations, perhaps you should look at it in a more elementary perspective. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Spider can't use the shorter route to turn its head. There's no evidence that a snake can't do multiplication, but I'm pretty sure it can't do that either. The facts are that Spiders have a problem with motor control... they are UNABLE to move the way nature intended them to move.




Spin, wobble, corkscrew, getting the wimbly-wamblies... call it whatever you like. It's a genetic affliction (probably neurological) that affects their basic motor skills. Apparently the condition can change and a seemingly normal Spider will turn into a train wreck later on in its life, but the fact remains that they all have it and nobody really knows when their Spider might change for the worse.

I can't speak for others, but *I* don't find it cute or endearing to see a snake jerk around, spin, corkscrew, or wobble when they should move like the millions of other graceful snakes that inhabit this planet. This is why *I* don't want to breed Spiders. I'm not sure why you have such a difficult time grasping that concept. I'm not telling you what *you* should do, or anyone else for that matter. I was asked for *my* opinion on why I don't want to breed Spiders, and I gave it.

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Hey, chill dude. You are presenting your reasons, I am presenting mine. I'm not telling you what to do either. Just telling you there's nothing wrong with breeding these guys because of their paint job which you have obviously alluded to several times. You call my reasoning convoluted and I call your reasoning simplistic. There's no evidence to support either one. Just trying to expand your horizons a little from somebody who has studied spiders for 2 years.