Bee w/ wobble

[DemmBalls]

Act like a Proud Southerner and put her on the front porch for the world to see, right next to the alzheimer patient. Crazy is not bad just a interesting fact of life.

LOL! Thanks! She has been my avatar for quite some time. Definitely our favorite pain in the butt snake!

I would wait a few days and try again.

Thanks...I'll give this a shot.

[xdeus]

@xdeus How is the wobble detrimetal? Ive never heard if a spider die from a wobble/spin vs kinks from cinnys, super cinny, caramels, etc.

I've never heard of a snake dying because of kinks, although I'm sure it could happen if severe enough. I have, however, heard of Spiders being culled because their condition was too severe and they were unable to function.

The fact is that they can not lead a "normal" life. Imagine you're a snake and you're trying to use your instincts to stay still or you want to explore something, but are unable to because your body is too busy doing its own thing. Sure, they can eat and breed like a normal snake, but their defect is still a handicap.

For arguments sake, let's use my other example of an eyeless snake. I'm sure they can breed and eat just fine in captivity. Would you have any qualms about breeding them because you liked the pattern on their skin? You may or may not, but I personally wouldn't want to continue that genetic handicap.

[ericeod]

I actually first bought my Spider before realizing there was a wobble. issue I did my research on "Ball Pyhtons" and not specific morphs. So for me it was something I had to deal with after getting the Spider male. But he isn't bad at all (as of now), and does very well. he is a great pet, is not agressive at all and eats every time for me (F/T hoppers).

As for the wobble beaing an issue, you really can't relate it to the natural order fo things. If the animal can live in captivity with a wobble but can't in the wild, that doesn't mean it is a serious issue and the animal shouldn't be bread. After all, a majority of these morphs have color patterns that would make it difficult to live in the BP's natural habitiat and be able to blend in like a wild type would. But that isn't a reason to not propogate them.

I look at it this way; These designer morphs are man made with very little genetic variation. Treat them as pets and care for them as best you can to suit their needs.

[anatess]

I've never heard of a snake dying because of kinks, although I'm sure it could happen if severe enough. I have, however, heard of Spiders being culled because their condition was too severe and they were unable to function.

The fact is that they can not lead a "normal" life. Imagine you're a snake and you're trying to use your instincts to stay still or you want to explore something, but are unable to because your body is too busy doing its own thing. Sure, they can eat and breed like a normal snake, but their defect is still a handicap.

For arguments sake, let's use my other example of an eyeless snake. I'm sure they can breed and eat just fine in captivity. Would you have any qualms about breeding them because you liked the pattern on their skin? You may or may not, but I personally wouldn't want to continue that genetic handicap.

Not sure I agree with this 100%. A spider who corkscrews does not necessarily mean he DIDN'T WANT to corkscrew. If you look at the videos out there, they corkscrew when they want to explore something. They lay still if they don't.

It's not quite the same as an eyeless snake. First of all, I have never heard of an eyeless snake being genetic. But, let's just say you got a morph that consistently produces an eyeless snake... A blind snake has lost a primary body function, although it still has other senses to compensate. You can't say a corkscrewy spider has lost a function unless he is one of the rare "train wreck" occurrences. He achieves his objective by different means - looks kinda weird to us - but it's his way of doing it. There's nothing to give evidence that it hurts the snake. An eyeless snake who thrives in captivity does not necessarily mean it needs to be culled. It is a matter of what you accept as "within the bounds of normal".

A trait is considered a defect because it looks/acts "different" than normal. But then, all morphs are "different" than normal... we just have accepted those insane colors as "cool" instead of "defect". I mean, a BEL can be considered a defect - a snake without color...

So, if you see eyelessness or corkscrewy as normal (a cool trait for a certain morph) having no evidence that it hurts the snake whatsoever or prevents it from performing all its necessary functions, I don't see an issue. It all then boils down to preference. Just like some people have no desire to own a white snake, some people have no desire to own a wobbly snake.

Train wrecks are different. These are the ones that has the wobble so bad that it can't find direction so it can't perform certain functions - like strike at prey. These are rare occurrences. This would be then synonymous to any bp morph that is born without a head, for instance. There is no way that snake can survive. So, if a breeding pair of bp's produce a headless snake in one clutch but doesn't produce it in another... would you continue breeding the pair? It's all up to you. I wouldn't see it as bad if you continue to breed them.

I personally think my spider's manifestation of a wobble - the little vibration he does with his head right before a strike - is awesome. It tells us exactly when he is going to strike so we can make sure our fingers are out of range. It also looks cute when he does his puppy-dog periscope position...

[xdeus]

A spider who corkscrews does not necessarily mean he DIDN'T WANT to corkscrew.

Now that's just silly. Maybe I should feel sorry for my normal snakes that might want to corkscrew but can't.

An eyeless snake who thrives in captivity does not necessarily mean it needs to be culled. It is a matter of what you accept as "within the bounds of normal".

I agree and that was the point I was making. I don't believe Spiders should be culled, but I also don't believe they should be propagated because they will all have this defect. I wouldn't breed eyeless snakes just to get a cool pattern as well. I think everyone has their own limits as far as what is acceptable and what isn't, and the guarantee of a Spider spin isn't acceptable to me.

[anatess]

Now that's just silly. Maybe I should feel sorry for my normal snakes that might want to corkscrew but can't.

The corkscrew movement is manifested in some spiders who goes one direction then decides to go a different direction - instead of turning the head on the shortest route to the direction it wants to face, like non-wobblers do - they turn their head the opposite direction, the longer route, to achieve the same objective. The facts are - the spider achieves their objective but from a different angle. Logically extrapolating - there is no evidence that a spider "can't" turn their heads in the shorter route - it could be that they have "preference" to go the other route... which could be because they do not experience a "negative feedback" for going the corkscrew route. Hence, my statement that it may very well be "preference"... just like a kid who prefers to write with his left hand instead of his right.

Do you feel bad for your kid who can't write with his left hand?

I agree and that was the point I was making. I don't believe Spiders should be culled, but I also don't believe they should be propagated because they will all have this defect. I wouldn't breed eyeless snakes just to get a cool pattern as well. I think everyone has their own limits as far as what is acceptable and what isn't, and the guarantee of a Spider spin isn't acceptable to me.

Dude, I think you have a completely different understanding of "Spider spin". I'm not sure if you're just going by what you read or if you've actually seen a multitude of spiders in Reptile shows...

A spider is not guaranteed to "spin". Yes, it is guaranteed that he would have some kind of wobble - most of them ranging from very slight to undetectable. The undetectable ones are commonly manifested in a less-than-accurate strike at prey or the puppy-dog periscope. But, from your statement you make it sound like all spiders "corkscrew". Not so. Not even close. A giant majority of spiders are in the slight to undetectable wobble range. You know why I say that? Because, there are a BUNCH of people owning spiders and spider combos and only a very FEW report a wobble such as what is expressed by the OP.

I think it is safe to say that the severe cases of the wobble occur in the same frequency as other defects. And yes, we continue to breed the other morphs even when there's a possiblity that you can end up with a snake without eyes, snake without heads, snake with a deformed jaw, snake with bent tails, etc. etc.

[xdeus]

- it could be that they have "preference" to go the other route... which could be because they do not experience a "negative feedback" for going the corkscrew route. Hence, my statement that it may very well be "preference"... just like a kid who prefers to write with his left hand instead of his right.

That is some extremely convoluted logic right there. Instead of trying to fit your observations to meet your expectations, perhaps you should look at it in a more elementary perspective. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Spider can't use the shorter route to turn its head. There's no evidence that a snake can't do multiplication, but I'm pretty sure it can't do that either. The facts are that Spiders have a problem with motor control... they are UNABLE to move the way nature intended them to move.

A spider is not guaranteed to "spin". Yes, it is guaranteed that he would have some kind of wobble - most of them ranging from very slight to undetectable. I think it is safe to say that the severe cases of the wobble occur in the same frequency as other defects. And yes, we continue to breed the other morphs even when there's a possiblity that you can end up with a snake without eyes, snake without heads, snake with a deformed jaw, snake with bent tails, etc. etc.

Spin, wobble, corkscrew, getting the wimbly-wamblies... call it whatever you like. It's a genetic affliction (probably neurological) that affects their basic motor skills. Apparently the condition can change and a seemingly normal Spider will turn into a train wreck later on in its life, but the fact remains that they all have it and nobody really knows when their Spider might change for the worse.

I can't speak for others, but *I* don't find it cute or endearing to see a snake jerk around, spin, corkscrew, or wobble when they should move like the millions of other graceful snakes that inhabit this planet. This is why *I* don't want to breed Spiders. I'm not sure why you have such a difficult time grasping that concept. I'm not telling you what *you* should do, or anyone else for that matter. I was asked for *my* opinion on why I don't want to breed Spiders, and I gave it.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Just because they aren't distressed doesn't mean they're fine. Going back to my reply, would you breed snakes that were eyeless or kinked? I'm sure those aren't distressed, either.

That's an interesting question--the answer is, eyeless snakes are rarely able to feed normally, since they lack the sensory stimulation of tracking movement to spur their feeding response. In addition, eyeless is frequently associated with jaw deformities, and sudden death before maturity (I have had a few snakes with this condition due to incubation temperature spikes).
Kinking can also prove to be fatal--yet people still breed caramel albinos, which are prone to it.

I have not heard instances of the spider wobble leading to fatality, or preventing feeding.

So yes--in many cases, eyeless snakes are physically distressed, and kinked snakes may die due to their kinking. I would not breed them. In fact, I have no plan to acquire caramel albinos for that reason (instead, I want ultramels).

I think everyone has their limits as to what is acceptable and what isn't. Personally, I feel a snake that spins and can't move normally and freely isn't worth the odd pattern.

That's certainly a valid opinion, but you shouldn't feel that those who choose to breed them are being unethical. We humans deliberately raise animals with aberrant behavior--waltzing mice and fainting goats are two examples. If it does them no harm, and they are not in any apparent distress, why not?

I may have offended some people because Spiders and their morphs are very popular, but that wasn't my intent. I was asked for my opinion as someone who doesn't like Spiders, and I gave my personal opinion.

I certainly wouldn't have taken offense to it--I just wanted to point out the difference between choosing to avoid breeding an animal because its aberrations make you uneasy, and it being unethical to breed that animal because of quality of life issues.
Spiders do not appear to suffer from a reduced quality of life, so there should not be any serious ethical concerns involved in breeding them. Their behavior is certainly quirky and unusual, but if it doesn't bother them, why should it bother us?

[BlckPhntm]

I've never heard of a snake dying because of kinks, although I'm sure it could happen if severe enough. I have, however, heard of Spiders being culled because their condition was too severe and they were unable to function.

Severe kinks do not allow the snake to swallow its prey, therefore not being able to eat and dies some time after birth of starvation. THAT is detrimental. Ralph Davis himself has said this on youtube if you need any proof.

[anatess]

That is some extremely convoluted logic right there. Instead of trying to fit your observations to meet your expectations, perhaps you should look at it in a more elementary perspective. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Spider can't use the shorter route to turn its head. There's no evidence that a snake can't do multiplication, but I'm pretty sure it can't do that either. The facts are that Spiders have a problem with motor control... they are UNABLE to move the way nature intended them to move.




Spin, wobble, corkscrew, getting the wimbly-wamblies... call it whatever you like. It's a genetic affliction (probably neurological) that affects their basic motor skills. Apparently the condition can change and a seemingly normal Spider will turn into a train wreck later on in its life, but the fact remains that they all have it and nobody really knows when their Spider might change for the worse.

I can't speak for others, but *I* don't find it cute or endearing to see a snake jerk around, spin, corkscrew, or wobble when they should move like the millions of other graceful snakes that inhabit this planet. This is why *I* don't want to breed Spiders. I'm not sure why you have such a difficult time grasping that concept. I'm not telling you what *you* should do, or anyone else for that matter. I was asked for *my* opinion on why I don't want to breed Spiders, and I gave it.

Hey, chill dude. You are presenting your reasons, I am presenting mine. I'm not telling you what to do either. Just telling you there's nothing wrong with breeding these guys because of their paint job which you have obviously alluded to several times. You call my reasoning convoluted and I call your reasoning simplistic. There's no evidence to support either one. Just trying to expand your horizons a little from somebody who has studied spiders for 2 years.