# Feeders > General Feeders >  Mice Direct FDA Recall

## Aes_Sidhe

The Food and Drug Administration issued a statement that Mice Direct rats, mice and chicks sold as reptile food were being recalled by the company due to salmonella contamination.
Link to Pet hobbyist Article http://www.pethobbyist.com/sitenews/...e,-chicks.html

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## jfreels

Crazy! 




> Human illnesses that may be related to the frozen reptile feed have been reported in 17 states.


So just handling the frozen then thawed product may have given people salmonella?  Or gave their pets and then handling their pets gave them salmonella?  I'd like to know since I handle f/t rats.

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## BAMReptiles

yea thats an interesting question. youd think freezing would kill the bacteria

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## WebbyD

I know that for sushi they have to deep freeze (-170f) to kill parasites bacteria etc...

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## Freakie_frog

What kind of grubby nasty person handles Frozen rats with their bare hands and doesn't wash them.. 

If we were lower life form's this would be called natural selection, the stupid ones die off and the other's move on with life.. 

Jesus..PEOPLE IF YOU HANDLE any kind of animal flesh please wash your damn grubby hands before you go chewing on your finger nails.. Or don't whine about being stupid and getting sick..

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## Oxylepy

I either use my hemostats to get them or some hand sanitizer after handling them.

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## Soterios

> What kind of grubby nasty person handles Frozen rats with their bare hands and doesn't wash them.. 
> 
> If we were lower life form's this would be called natural selection, the stupid ones die off and the other's move on with life.. 
> 
> Jesus..PEOPLE IF YOU HANDLE any kind of animal flesh please wash your damn grubby hands before you go chewing on your finger nails.. Or don't whine about being stupid and getting sick..


Wow, a little harsh don't you think?

At least it's good to know that your personal hygiene is 100% clean all the time and you've never once made a mistake in that department.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I hardly think reporting a serious issue to the FDA qualifies as "whining"

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## Freakie_frog

> Wow, a little harsh don't you think?
> 
> At least it's good to know that your personal hygiene is 100% clean all the time and you've never once made a mistake in that department.  
> 
> I hardly think reporting a serious issue to the FDA qualifies as "whining"


No it's not harsh..your not playing with flowers, or making home made play dough..they are dead frozen rats.. There should be some little thing in the back of your head that says "Hey you just pawed all over 50 wet dead rats..might be a good idea to rub a little soap and water on them hands before you go stirring the Kool Aid"

I mean at what point does personal responsibility get handed over to someone else.. It is'nt the FDA's job to point out that hey "not washing your hands after messing with 6 month old dead frozen rats might be a good idea"

It isn't anthrax or eboli its salmonella it's every where, from the eggs for Breakfast to the Sushi Bar you visit on Friday at lunch.. 

As for my personal Hygiene its great..but come on even Kindergarten kid's know after you stick your hands in something icky you go wash them for God sakes.

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_anendeloflorien_ (07-29-2010),ballpythonluvr (07-29-2010),_BAMReptiles_ (07-28-2010),_cinderbird_ (07-28-2010),_Jason Bowden_ (07-28-2010)

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## wilomn

> Wow, a little harsh don't you think?
> 
> At least it's good to know that your personal hygiene is 100% clean all the time and you've never once made a mistake in that department.  
> 
> I hardly think reporting a serious issue to the FDA qualifies as "whining"


Nope, not harsh at all.

If you're too stupid to wash after handling dead rodents which may well have feces on them, then you are too stupid to own a snake.

Period.

If you're too stupid to own a snake you will make others who don't own snakes think that I too, as a snake owner, am as stupid as you. I am not. I do not wish to be even suspected as such. Therefore, if you are too stupid to wash after handling dead rodents, please take up guppies or roaches or anything that I don't keep myself.

I'm tired of STUPID people.

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_bad-one_ (08-01-2010),ballpythonluvr (07-29-2010),_BAMReptiles_ (07-28-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (07-28-2010),_tonkatoyman_ (07-28-2010)

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## wolfy-hound

Apparently a high percentage of household roaches carry salmonella also.  Plus.. who the heck thought to test DEAD RATS for salmonella? I mean.. really?

I'm one that's not so picky about everything being sterile and super clean, but I rarely EVER get sick, never have had(knock on wood) any food borne illness or salmonella.  I have a hyper-immune system though.  When I work a kitchen, work on food while camping with others, or prepare food that others will consume, I am ANAL about everything being clean and sanitary.  It's the basics for food prep to have things clean, and not cross-contaminate items.

I just got chicks from Mice Direct at the local Repticon in Kissimee.  Since chicken is often a carrying factor for salmonella, think that could be the cross-contamination origin?

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## ice#1

i wanna know how they got a place that only does feeder food goes and gets it spread to there whole line of frozen prey. did they keep all the animals in the same enclosure? surely not. how did they not notice tons of animals being sickly? hmmm thats the real question to isn't it? did they notice and just not care cause honestly it's not hard to pick a sick animal out of a a group of healthy animals when you work with them daily.(i grew up on a farm with several head of cattle pigs and horses and it's not hard to tell a sick animal from a healthy animal. i understand how they got it spread they clearly had some contaminated chickens and there employees didn't wash there hands properly after handling them.( which when they first started noticing sick animals they should of shut down everything right then and there not wait for FDA to do the recall. as think about it they got names and records of everybody they sold to why not get a hold of all those people and say hey send your stuff back we just found some of our animals got salmonella send yours back. but they chose to sit back and let money roll in till they got caught. i myself will never buy from them again I'd rather let my animals starve before i use a company thats just in it for the almighty dollar and this proves it they sit there counting there money instead of out checking on the health of the animals they sell opps wait they just sell dead animals who cares right

all i got to say is watch out for the price increase now that they are recalling all that was sold for that time i bet they never cleaned what ever they used to kill the prey items like they should of 

i myself think it is funny as tons of people demanded cheaper food well you got your cheaper food and a Lil extra for your wanting to save a few pennies lol (yes i can be an ass) honestly i bet all those people who ended up with tainted frozen prey are now rethinking breeding there own.

reminds me of 2 old adages if you want it done right do it yourself. and if you want it cheaper do it yourself. 


i think we as a whole the herp community needs to boycott them this is just another reason the government to use to shut down the pet trade in the USA a fancy lawyer could easily blame the pet trade for the demand of dead animals which just so happen to be prone to get salmonella if not treated properly

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## jfreels

They actually have nice facilities, there are videos of them on YouTube.  I'll pass on the boycott for reasons stated above, it's the users fault.

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_KMS_ (07-29-2010)

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## wolfy-hound

Why are you assuming that the rodents appeared sick or even WERE sick? Do you think that chicken on the counter that has salmonella somehow looked sick before it was slaughtered too?  Many reptiles carry salmonella and the only way to ever know would be the get them tested in a lab.  So is that also "poor practices" or "unhealthy animals"?

The rodents could have been contaminated in many many ways, not all related to ill animals or poor practices.

And for the record, not everyone is ABLE to breed their own rodents, due to space, regulations, housemates' objections, or time.  Not everyone bought from MiceDirect for lower prices(they aren't the cheapest place ever).

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## theGuardian

There isn't anything wrong with Mice Direct's Rodents. FDA has been investigating links between handling Rodents and getting Salmonella. There isn't any case against Mice Direct specifically - just general cases linking the handling of rats/mice & getting Salmonella. They chose to start their investigation at the Mice Direct facility. 

*It is a fact that Mice & Rats carry Salmonella*, so it is no surprise that the FDA found Salmonella in Mice Direct's products. The simple truth is that their Rodents are *completely safe to use FOR THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE* - *Feeding your pet Reptiles*. And people need to wash their hands after touching them. Most people know this-

Mice Direct has fully cooperated with the FDA and has already begun the process of Irradiating all products before they ship -- Something that no other Rodent dealer is doing. Expect to see Rodent Pro, American Rodent & the others to be held to same standards.

I am friends with the owners of Mice Direct and I proudly distribute their products.

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-29-2010),_anendeloflorien_ (07-29-2010),_FloridaHogs_ (07-28-2010),_KMS_ (07-29-2010),_tonkatoyman_ (07-28-2010),wolfy-hound (07-28-2010)

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## FloridaHogs

> i wanna know how they got a place that only does feeder food goes and gets it spread to there whole line of frozen prey. did they keep all the animals in the same enclosure? surely not. how did they not notice tons of animals being sickly? hmmm thats the real question to isn't it? did they notice and just not care cause honestly it's not hard to pick a sick animal out of a a group of healthy animals when you work with them daily.(i grew up on a farm with several head of cattle pigs and horses and it's not hard to tell a sick animal from a healthy animal. i understand how they got it spread they clearly had some contaminated chickens and there employees didn't wash there hands properly after handling them.( which when they first started noticing sick animals they should of shut down everything right then and there not wait for FDA to do the recall. as think about it they got names and records of everybody they sold to why not get a hold of all those people and say hey send your stuff back we just found some of our animals got salmonella send yours back. but they chose to sit back and let money roll in till they got caught. i myself will never buy from them again I'd rather let my animals starve before i use a company thats just in it for the almighty dollar and this proves it they sit there counting there money instead of out checking on the health of the animals they sell opps wait they just sell dead animals who cares right
> 
> all i got to say is watch out for the price increase now that they are recalling all that was sold for that time i bet they never cleaned what ever they used to kill the prey items like they should of 
> 
> i myself think it is funny as tons of people demanded cheaper food well you got your cheaper food and a Lil extra for your wanting to save a few pennies lol (yes i can be an ass) honestly i bet all those people who ended up with tainted frozen prey are now rethinking breeding there own.


You don't come off as an ass as much as you come off as ignorant.  The salmonella in question is from HANDLING RAW MEAT, just like with poultry you cook with in your kitchen, *NOT* from sick animals.  At least understand the topic before making crazy statements.  And guess what, if FDA gets their way and starts regulating, it will be ALL frozen feeder producers.  That would include Laine Laboratories,  Rodent Pro, American Rodent Supply, South Florida Rodents, Big Cheese Factory, Bushhill Rodents just to name a few.  ALL of them will have to comply because mice and rats DO carry salmonella, so the ONLY way to insure the product is clean is to irradiate it.  Right now, Mice Direct is the ONLY company doing this, not because they believe something is wrong with their product, but because the FDA asked them to.  They are trying to do everything in their power to aide the FDA (even jumping through silly hoops)  in hopes they will decide to NOT regulate this part of the industry.

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_anendeloflorien_ (07-29-2010),wolfy-hound (07-28-2010)

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## izoid

Not all rats carry salmonella but they can carry it.  It seems as though we like to make blanket statements that are not based in fact.  I for one would not want to purchase an animal that was contaminated with salmonella, if you do then go right ahead but it is not a good idea.

The question that needs to be answered is how did this salmonella outbreak cross contaminate the entire product line.  This very fact would indicate that proper hygiene practices may not have been followed.  

Nobody knows that the FDA is using this as a ploy to shut down, or regulate, all rodent suppliers.  This is akin to some silly conspiracy theory like Roswell.  The facts are the facts and we do not know all of them.  All we know is the entire supply is being recalled for salmonella.  People in 17 states MAY have gotten sick because of it.

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## FloridaHogs

> Not all rats carry salmonella but they can carry it.  It seems as though we like to make blanket statements that are not based in fact.  I for one would not want to purchase an animal that was contaminated with salmonella, if you do then go right ahead but it is not a good idea.
> 
> The question that needs to be answered is how did this salmonella outbreak cross contaminate the entire product line.  This very fact would indicate that proper hygiene practices may not have been followed.  
> 
> Nobody knows that the FDA is using this as a ploy to shut down, or regulate, all rodent suppliers.  This is akin to some silly conspiracy theory like Roswell.  The facts are the facts and we do not know all of them.  All we know is the entire supply is being recalled for salmonella.  People in 17 states MAY have gotten sick because of it.


What part of the facts did you not understand.  The 17 cases are not all directly linked to Mice Direct, but TO FROZEN FEEDERS! Let me state it another way...there have been 17 cases linked to frozen feeders, *NOT* 17 cases linked to Mice Direct, but frozen feeders from several different producers.  Mice Direct is the one taking the crap for the whole frozen rodent industry....and BTW why is anybody believing everything the media says....aren't they the ones that tell the public your BP will kill the family pet or EVEN A CHILD!! :Wag of the finger:  

We have been aware of the FDA's doings for roughly 2 weeks.  They are targeting frozen feeders in general, not the company Mice Direct.  So yes I do know what the FDA is up to, we have been in contact with some of the key players.  They are debating regulating the entire frozen feeder market just as they do dog food.  So yes this will affect the ENTIRE frozen feeder industry.  

Remember, we are not talking about live animals with salmonella, but raw meat.  They tested RAW MEAT....not the living breeders.  And everybody and their mama knows you can get salmonella from handling raw meat...even that for human consumption.

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_jkobylka_ (07-29-2010)

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## Jason Bowden

Mice direct has great rodents. IMO

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## izoid

> What part of the facts did you not understand.  The 17 cases are not all directly linked to Mice Direct, but TO FROZEN FEEDERS! Let me state it another way...there have been 17 cases linked to frozen feeders, *NOT* 17 cases linked to Mice Direct, but frozen feeders from several different producers.  Mice Direct is the one taking the crap for the whole frozen rodent industry....and BTW why is anybody believing everything the media says....aren't they the ones that tell the public your BP will kill the family pet or EVEN A CHILD!! 
> 
> We have been aware of the FDA's doings for roughly 2 weeks.  They are targeting frozen feeders in general, not the company Mice Direct.  So yes I do know what the FDA is up to, we have been in contact with some of the key players.  They are debating regulating the entire frozen feeder market just as they do dog food.  So yes this will affect the ENTIRE frozen feeder industry.  
> 
> Remember, we are not talking about live animals with salmonella, but raw meat.  They tested RAW MEAT....not the living breeders.  And everybody and their mama knows you can get salmonella from handling raw meat...even that for human consumption.


I think you need to calm down a bit and stop being so aggressive in the way you dialog with others.  For some reason you seem to enjoy belittling those who have different opinions than you.   :Wag of the finger: 

The recall was initiated by the FDA AFTER samples contained salmonella.  These samples were traced to lots that were sent to 17 states where people got sick.  Nowhere in the recall data does it indicate that the illness was possibly caused by anyone other than Mice Direct.  I do not know where you got your info from but I would appreciate it if you could direct us there.

The fact that it was dead rats that were infected and not live breeders is a smokescreen, it means nothing.  I feed my boas frozen and not live so all I care about is the frozen feeders that I get from them....the ones with salmonella.

If companies are shipping feeders that are contaminated with salmonella maybe they need to be regulated.  If they can't police themselves then maybe someone else should.  Just a thought.

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## RichsBallPythons

How would one go about doing irradiate. I sell many mice here locally live and frozen. And do plan on selling Frozen ASF as well and would like to  take the extra step if it helps.

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izoid (07-28-2010)

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## wilomn

Does Mice Direct, or any distributor for that matter, produce 100% of what they sell?

If not, there is no way to know what happens prior to the prey items arriving at their facility.

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## wilomn

> How would one go about doing irradiate. I sell many mice here locally live and frozen. And do plan on selling Frozen ASF as well and would like to  take the extra step if it helps.


I think all you have to do is drive within 100 miles of Vegas and it's all taken care of.

Radiation wise, that is.

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## izoid

> How would one go about doing irradiate. I sell many mice here locally live and frozen. And do plan on selling Frozen ASF as well and would like to  take the extra step if it helps.


I applaud you sir....this is the appropriate response, someone who truly cares to do the right thing.  No blame game, no conspiracy theories, just plain old do the right thing.

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## RichsBallPythons

> I think all you have to do is drive within 100 miles of Vegas and it's all taken care of.
> 
> Radiation wise, that is.


HA too bad thats out of the question with the long drive.

Theres gotta be a safe way of doing this without exposing ourselves to it

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## FloridaHogs

> I think you need to calm down a bit and stop being so aggressive in the way you dialog with others.  For some reason you seem to enjoy belittling those who have different opinions than you.  
> 
> The recall was initiated by the FDA AFTER samples contained salmonella.  These samples were traced to lots that were sent to 17 states where people got sick.  Nowhere in the recall data does it indicate that the illness was possibly caused by anyone other than Mice Direct.  I do not know where you got your info from but I would appreciate it if you could direct us there.
> 
> The fact that it was dead rats that were infected and not live breeders is a smokescreen, it means nothing.  I feed my boas frozen and not live so all I care about is the frozen feeders that I get from them....the ones with salmonella.
> 
> If companies are shipping feeders that are contaminated with salmonella maybe they need to be regulated.  If they can't police themselves then maybe someone else should.  Just a thought.


I got my facts from the source, not the media.

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## izoid

> I got my facts from the source, not the media.


The FDA or Mice Direct???

I watch cops on TV all the time and the guilty party is always at a loss as to what they may have done, it is always the other guy.

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## FloridaHogs

> Does Mice Direct, or any distributor for that matter, produce 100% of what they sell?
> 
> If not, there is no way to know what happens prior to the prey items arriving at their facility.



That is correct.  Many producers such as rodent pro, get some of their product from other facilities.  I know for a fact, that recently, in an effort to increase rat production, Mice Direct did get some breeders from another facility...so you are right, several facilities are all tied together.

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## izoid

So, are you saying that the mice, rats and chicks that had salmonella all came from different facilities and that Mice Direct has no culpability in the matter?

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## wilomn

> That is correct.  Many producers such as rodent pro, get some of their product from other facilities.  I know for a fact, that recently, in an effort to increase rat production, Mice Direct did get some breeders from another facility...so you are right, several facilities are all tied together.


Didn't they have a power outage a bit ago too and lose a bunch of breeders? 

Not to go way off topic or anything.

I would imagine that getting enough rats to jumpstart an operation as large as theirs necessitated purchasing large numbers of rodents from multiple sources and if they just had them shipped in, didn't go get them in person, there is no way to really know how they were kept.

Anyway, this is not about them in particular. We should keep that in mind.

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## FloridaHogs

> How would one go about doing irradiate. I sell many mice here locally live and frozen. And do plan on selling Frozen ASF as well and would like to  take the extra step if it helps.



There are two facilities in the south east.  One in South Florida, and one about 3 hours from Atlanta.  I do not know about facilities in the North.  You basically have to take your product to the facility to get the process done.  It is time consuming and costly, but Mice Direct is doing it at the direction of the FDA

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## wilomn

> So, are you saying that the mice, rats and chicks that had salmonella all came from different facilities and that Mice Direct has no culpability in the matter?


Are you not understanding that while it may well be present in their frozen food it may not be originating with them?

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## AaronP

Holy Crap! I used to get my rats from mice direct but after having issues with snakes getting sick I changed up my husbandry and a few months ago switched to a different rodent breeder completely.

I always suspected somethning since the vet reports came back with a abundance of salmonella as the cause for the illness, but I wasn't convinced it was the food I was feeding them... My snakes also didn't as readily eat the mice direct rats as they do with the new breeder I get them from...

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## izoid

> Are you not understanding that while it may well be present in their frozen food it may not be originating with them?


But they are the ones selling them.  I am not understanding why the vigorous defense of Mice Direct.

Let's pretend I am an importer of snakes.  I get a batch, from someone else, that is infected with disease.  I then mix those snakes with the rest of my reptiles, infecting them.  I then sell the snake, or other reptiles, to you and your collection get sick and dies.  Who is to blame?  It can't be me by your logic because the animals didn't originate with me.  This just makes no sense at all.

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## wolfy-hound

> So, are you saying that the mice, rats and chicks that had salmonella all came from different facilities and that Mice Direct has no culpability in the matter?


He didn't say anything of the sort, he said that some of the animals may have originated at other facilities.  You just twisted it to that.

Are you just out to get MiceDirect for some reason? Seeing as Mice Direct is the one saying they will be doing the irradiation that you just praised someone else for saying they'll do.. yet you overlook that part.  You've ranted about how bad a facility it is, stated that their live animals carry salmonella, disparaged their production and integrity.  Just wondering why all the squalling, when Mice Direct is the only company stating they will be going the extra(pricier) step to ensure any salmonella is killed on future product.. but I don't see you screaming for all the other companies(which could have produced some of the frozen feeders that may have caused the human cases, since not all of the feeders causing the issues came from MiceDirect) to be boycotted.

I mean.. I bought a bag or two of feeders from them, but generally I do use a different company(who is cheaper than them, so there goes your first rant about cheap being worse, huh?) so I have no real dog in the fight, so to speak.

Did they steal your french fries in the second grade or something? Just wondering.

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theGuardian (07-28-2010)

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## RichsBallPythons

> There are two facilities in the south east.  One in South Florida, and one about 3 hours from Atlanta.  I do not know about facilities in the North.  You basically have to take your product to the facility to get the process done.  It is time consuming and costly, but Mice Direct is doing it at the direction of the FDA


That will be way out of the question i guess. I dont breed on large scale to afford all that for the rodents. But then again i wash my hands in between touching mice and rats or feeding snakes.

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## izoid

> He didn't say anything of the sort, he said that some of the animals may have originated at other facilities.  You just twisted it to that.
> 
> Are you just out to get MiceDirect for some reason? Seeing as Mice Direct is the one saying they will be doing the irradiation that you just praised someone else for saying they'll do.. yet you overlook that part.  You've ranted about how bad a facility it is, stated that their live animals carry salmonella, disparaged their production and integrity.  Just wondering why all the squalling, when Mice Direct is the only company stating they will be going the extra(pricier) step to ensure any salmonella is killed on future product.. but I don't see you screaming for all the other companies(which could have produced some of the frozen feeders that may have caused the human cases, since not all of the feeders causing the issues came from MiceDirect) to be boycotted.
> 
> I mean.. I bought a bag or two of feeders from them, but generally I do use a different company(who is cheaper than them, so there goes your first rant about cheap being worse, huh?) so I have no real dog in the fight, so to speak.
> 
> Did they steal your french fries in the second grade or something? Just wondering.


Talk about making things up.  What got into you.  Nothing that you have accused me of saying is in fact what I said....go back and read my posts and then take a comprehension class.

1.  I never ranted about how bad their facility is.
2.  I never said their live animals carry salmonella.
3.  I never disparaged them at all.

Please do not misrepresent what I have said as it only makes you look bad.  

It is great that they are going the extra step of irradiating their stock, good for them.  It still does not change the fact that their product was recalled due to salmonella contamination.

And BTW....they took my whole happy meal, not just the fries.   :ROFL:

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## izoid

> That will be way out of the question i guess. I dont breed on large scale to afford all that for the rodents. But then again i wash my hands in between touching mice and rats or feeding snakes.


Just use a good quality food, clean your cages on a regular basis and wash your hands after handling.  I think that is a reasonable approach for a small scale home breeder like yourself.  If you were selling thousands of rodents all over the country I would image you would want to take some extra measures.

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## wilomn

> But they are the ones selling them.  I am not understanding why the vigorous defense of Mice Direct.
> 
> Let's pretend I am an importer of snakes.  I get a batch, from someone else, that is infected with disease.  I then mix those snakes with the rest of my reptiles, infecting them.  I then sell the snake, or other reptiles, to you and your collection get sick and dies.  Who is to blame?  It can't be me by your logic because the animals didn't originate with me.  This just makes no sense at all.


If I don't follow proper and well known guidelines for quarantine and husbandry, it is NOT your fault. Doesn't matter what you did before I got them, I made the choice to purchase, therefore I, just me, all alone and by myself, am responsible for what happens.

However, we are not, as you seem to dim to understand, not referring to living reptiles but to dead, frozen, no longer living and not reptiles when they were(just to be clear) rodents.

You do understand why they're different, right?

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## RichsBallPythons

> Just use a good quality food, clean your cages on a regular basis and wash your hands after handling.  I think that is a reasonable approach for a small scale home breeder like yourself.  If you were selling thousands of rodents all over the country I would image you would want to take some extra measures.


Always kept clean(every 4-5 days) fed Mazuri or Kent and hand sanitizer and Dial all over.

Do not expect to become rodent breeder. Just hoped id be able to take the extra step easier than driving hours. Maybe in time somewhere up here in Michigan it will be easily accessed.

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## izoid

Help me understand why it is OK to sell dead rodents contaminated with salmonella.

Instead of arguing with each other we should be asking how this happened and how can we all prevent it from occurring in the future.  Instead we talk about poor Mice direct and the big bad government conspiracy.  

I for one would feel more comfortable buying from them now than ever before but that does not alleviate the potential harm they may have caused.

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## wilomn

> Help me understand why it is OK to sell dead rodents contaminated with salmonella.


If you're serious about this statement, you will simply not understand.

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theGuardian (07-28-2010)

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## wolfy-hound

> Talk about making things up.  What got into you.  Nothing that you have accused me of saying is in fact what I said....go back and read my posts and then take a comprehension class.
> 
> 1.  I never ranted about how bad their facility is.
> 2.  I never said their live animals carry salmonella.
> 3.  I never disparaged them at all.
> 
> Please do not misrepresent what I have said as it only makes you look bad.  
> 
> It is great that they are going the extra step of irradiating their stock, good for them.  It still does not change the fact that their product was recalled due to salmonella contamination.
> ...


First, sorry, I mistook you for the OP with a name starting with a small "i" and similiar postings.
Second, "The question that needs to be answered is how did this salmonella outbreak cross contaminate the entire product line. This very fact would indicate that proper hygiene practices may not have been followed. "  Says you are disparaging the facility.
"watch cops on TV all the time and the guilty party is always at a loss as to what they may have done, it is always the other guy."  says you are pointing to them as "guilty parties".

Sorry I didn't "quote" those officially.. I've never figured out how to do that more than once in a post.

Just because a facility produced some of the feeders recalled/contaminated, doesn't mean all the feeders came from them, doesn't mean everything they have is contaminated, and isn't absolutely indictive of poor husbandry.  

If we meet in person sometime, I'll buy you a happy meal though, cause a trauma like that can follow you for years.  I might steal the toy out of it though.. if it's a really awesome one.

----------


## theGuardian

Here is the Statement issued by Mice Direct
https://micedirect.com/2010recall/index.htm


Valued customers,

This is to inform you that MiceDirect has issued a voluntary recall. Over the years we have regularly tested our rodents for any potential issues. During one of these recent tests it was detected that a portion of our rodents may be potentially carrying Salmonella. Because of this we are offering a voluntary recall option to our customers.

Facts:

This particular type of Salmonella cannot be passed to your reptile. Reptiles carry other specific strains.

Salmonella is common in almost all groups of both domestic and wild animals
Salmonella can make you sick, small children and frail or elderly people are more susceptible.
Washing your hands prevents this risk of illness from Salmonella. Please wash your hands when handling.



When handling raw product, such as rodents, chicken, pork, beef or any dead animal, it is very important to thoroughly wash your hands. Washing your hands should keep you from becoming sick in the event you come into contact with Salmonella.

What we are doing:

We begun a voluntary program to irradiate all pet food products.

All of our products starting on July 24, 2010 are irradiated, in a similar manner to raw food for human consumption.
We are irradiating our products at a level equivalent to the standards for human consumption.
This product continues to be fully acceptable for consuming reptiles.
You can be confident that our quality standards meet or exceed the standards currently held by other companies.



You can be confident that our quality standards are superior.

Recall Information:

If you have unused product that was purchased between May 2009 and July 23, 2010, please contact us. We are happy to replace product purchased between the above stated dates with our new irradiated product at your request.

We take the quality of our product very seriously. Please contact us for further assistance.

To view our official press release you may Click Here.

Sincerely,

John Callaham

JULY 28, 2010

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-29-2010)

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## ice#1

meaning how could a place that shipped that many contaminated animals live or dead not notice some of the live ones were sick rember not all animals become carriers but get sick and die from it also is what I'm saying. and if you work with an animal day in and day out you get to the point you can tell by way it acts 

and I've worked with chickens when i was younger and not all chicken stay healthy they to get sick so like i said my point is how if they had that much contaminated frozen feeders did they not notice it in the live animals some part of the cleanliness process got over looked or side stepped to fill orders at some point maybe employ x went to the bathroom and was back-up at his section forgot to wash hands or something or maybe went to outside break area and put some contaminated chicken on the grill who knows who cares but there has to be some kind of standard set in place so this never happens again not just nuking the mice but quality control as far as if anything sold at least hourly I've been in couple different kraft factories and kal-can factories and seen them do hourly checks on food being sold at all stage of processing and car factories are the same qc once an hour on everything they process 

i must say if they are working with the FDA to take steps to make sure this never happens again i take my hat off to them. but  i can think of one good rule that would make something like this from ever happening again in other factories they do quality tests hourly once an hour all feeder sales people should do an in house test for salmonella contamination nothing can be shipped till test is all good. and must be kept on file or reported 

I've seen pharmaceutical lab mice and how they are kept what use to be up-john in Kalamazoo Michigan had hairless mice they paid 1 million a piece for to use for drug testing totally clean even if got to go in room and breath the same air as them you had to be sterilized and have up-to date shots for everything and thats just to fix a blown plug-in receptacle 

 that is the only way they will get rid of or make sure stuff like this never happens again. even if they are just selling snake food but how do you feed a snake if you can never touch the bag they came in cause could have salmonella. (little drastic there but some of us got not only ourself to look after and pets but kids as-well) yes i think there should be very strict guide lines set in place to make sure nothing like this happens again no that don't mean shut them down but at least upgrade to comply with standards trade wide.

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## Raptor

> meaning how could a place that shipped that many contaminated animals live or dead not notice some of the live ones were sick rember not all animals become carriers but get sick and die from it also is what I'm saying. and if you work with an animal day in and day out you get to the point you can tell by way it acts 
> 
> and I've worked with chickens when i was younger and not all chicken stay healthy they to get sick so like i said my point is how if they had that much contaminated frozen feeders did they not notice it in the live animals some part of the cleanliness process got over looked or side stepped to fill orders at some point maybe employ x went to the bathroom and was back-up at his section forgot to wash hands or something or maybe went to outside break area and put some contaminated chicken on the grill who knows who cares but there has to be some kind of standard set in place so this never happens again not just nuking the mice but quality control as far as if anything sold at least hourly I've been in couple different kraft factories and kal-can factories and seen them do hourly checks on food being sold at all stage of processing and car factories are the same qc once an hour on everything they process 
> 
> i must say if they are working with the FDA to take steps to make sure this never happens again i take my hat off to them. but  i can think of one good rule that would make something like this from ever happening again in other factories they do quality tests hourly once an hour all feeder sales people should do an in house test for salmonella contamination nothing can be shipped till test is all good. and must be kept on file or reported 
> 
> I've seen pharmaceutical lab mice and how they are kept what use to be up-john in Kalamazoo Michigan had hairless mice they paid 1 million a piece for to use for drug testing totally clean even if got to go in room and breath the same air as them you had to be sterilized and have up-to date shots for everything and thats just to fix a blown plug-in receptacle 
> 
>  that is the only way they will get rid of or make sure stuff like this never happens again. even if they are just selling snake food but how do you feed a snake if you can never touch the bag they came in cause could have salmonella. (little drastic there but some of us got not only ourself to look after and pets but kids as-well) yes i think there should be very strict guide lines set in place to make sure nothing like this happens again no that don't mean shut them down but at least upgrade to comply with standards trade wide.


For the love of all things holy..Use periods at the end of your sentences. Run on sentences make me head hurt.  :Weirdface: 

Additionally, not all animals will look ill before they drop over dead. I used to raise guinea fowl chicks during the summers. Big batches at a time. Some mornings I'd look in and one of the healthy, spunky chicks from the previous night would be dead. Yesterday, I found a breeder mouse dead. The previous night she had been fine.

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## MarkS

Hey Ice#1, I just read a VERY SHOCKING REPORT right here... <shocking report> 

Did you know that all paper money and coins can contains thousands of bacteria that can make you sick including many of the dreaded salmonella serotypes? Just think of all those hands these bills pass through every day, we could have a pandemic on our hands.   As a public service to you and anyone else who may be terrified by this horrible threat, I'm offering to take all of those dirty paper bills off your hands.  Just send them all to me and I'll dispose of them in a safe and proper fashion.  I know it'll be a terrible burden, but I see it as my civic duty to protect all God fearing American citizens from this dreadful threat.  (Heck, I'll even do it for you Canadians, because that's just the kind of helpful guy I am) 

In the meantime though I suggest you take all of that righteous wrath that you seem to have in such abundance and march on the federal treasury building in Washington DC demanding that they cease circulating these foul diseased ridden notes of theirs. Think of the safety of the children for goodness sakes...

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bellepunkfille (08-02-2010),_Bruce Whitehead_ (08-01-2010),Stewart_Reptiles (07-29-2010)

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## lance

so what am i to do throw away my rodents I bought at the show? Are they refunding us money?

lance

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## wilomn

> Hey Ice#1, I just read a VERY SHOCKING REPORT right here... <shocking report> 
> 
> Did you know that all paper money and coins can contains thousands of bacteria that can make you sick including many of the dreaded salmonella serotypes? Just think of all those hands these bills pass through every day, we could have a pandemic on our hands.   As a public service to you and anyone else who may be terrified by this horrible threat, I'm offering to take all of those dirty paper bills off your hands.  Just send them all to me and I'll dispose of them in a safe and proper fashion.  I know it'll be a terrible burden, but I see it as my civic duty to protect all God fearing American citizens from this dreadful threat.  (Heck, I'll even do it for you Canadians, because that's just the kind of helpful guy I am) 
> 
> In the meantime though I suggest you take all of that righteous wrath that you seem to have in such abundance and march on the federal treasury building in Washington DC demanding that they cease circulating these foul diseased ridden notes of theirs. Think of the safety of the children for goodness sakes...


Snicker chortle hoot guffaw

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## ice#1

thats OK MarkS i use plastic not paper so go try to collect elsewhere

man you people are harsh look the other way when somebody goes and poisons over a dozen people in over a dozen states. but jump on the guy who say they need to get stricter rules to operate to make sure they keep people safe.  guess everybody can see who could careless about other humans lives kids included. i'm sorry what did your mom or dad drop you on your head as a baby 

heck I've seen people get more outraged for getting an over cooked steak then you guys get from possibly being poisoned 

if you read there way of dealing with it notice they only agreed to cover cost of left over food not cover med bill of anybody infected that had to go to the ER or miss work 


also think about it how is washing your hands going to get rid of it you before you can wash your hands have to turn on the water then wash your hands then turn the water off so unless somebody figured out a hands free in-home water faucet. just washing your hands does no good cause you got to touch what was contaminated to turn the water on to wash your hands thus getting the virus back on your hands 



Raptor that is true not all will show signs of being sick but there will be sick ones in the population might only be 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 but still they should check there sick animals there was warning signs before they ever gassed the animals to begin with Evan if only a dozen were sick in a whole plant of thousands of rodents. i to have had females drop dead litery in minutes of checking on them case in point. i just had a female die that was very heavily pregnant put her thing by herself went pee came back and she was dead so yes i know animals drop dead showing no signs but if you are running a business and say day before you had none drop dead then next day you got a dozen or half dozen dead that are close together in racks for respect for your customer wouldn't you go test some of your animals to make sure the rest don't die cause if not your running a very crappy business and just in it for the money. treating your customers right is what makes a good business grow while making a crappy one disappear.

like i said they are doing the right thing by showing they are trying to make sure this never happens again. and there not playing the blame game by trying to pass the buck they manned up and said OK lets fix this and make sure it never happens from us again. now since they did that the government needs to step forward and require all f/t foods be done this way no matter what or shut them down till they comply

MarkS i noticed how they left out info on old reports of money having cocaine and other drugs on money

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## wolfy-hound

You really missed all the facts presented, didn't you? There's sooo much wrong with your statements that I'm not going to attempt it, since you obviously aren't interested in anything but ranting and a massive vendetta.

*gives tinfoil for new hat*  Have a nice day.  I gotta go to work, where I shall attempt to touch all surfaces repeatedly and put my fingers into my mouth.. just to make you cringe.

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## Wh00h0069

> What kind of grubby nasty person handles Frozen rats with their bare hands and doesn't wash them.. 
> 
> If we were lower life form's this would be called natural selection, the stupid ones die off and the other's move on with life.. 
> 
> Jesus..PEOPLE IF YOU HANDLE any kind of animal flesh please wash your damn grubby hands before you go chewing on your finger nails.. Or don't whine about being stupid and getting sick..


 :ROFL:   :Good Job:

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## kellysballs

I am going to start by saying I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I feed live. But some of the ignorance(I'm using this word in the nicest possible way :Smile: ) being spewed on this thread is a little more than I can take. 

I am not trying to attack but to educate.




> man you people are harsh look the other way when somebody goes and poisons over a dozen people in over a dozen states. but jump on the guy who say they need to get stricter rules to operate to make sure they keep people safe. guess everybody can see who could careless about other humans lives kids included.


Really? I mean REALLY????? You honestly think this way?
"somebody" didn't poison 17 people. 17 people did not practice effective hand washing or sanitary techniques when dealing with RAW DEAD ANIMALS. 




> also think about it how is washing your hands going to get rid of it you before you can wash your hands have to turn on the water then wash your hands then turn the water off so unless somebody figured out a hands free in-home water faucet. just washing your hands does no good cause you got to touch what was contaminated to turn the water on to wash your hands thus getting the virus back on your hands


Again you MUST be kidding, right?!? My 9yr old knows how to properly wash her hands. Please do yourself a favor take just one microbiology course. You'll feel better knowing how to properly wash your hands and sanitize your living area.

There are (according to Bergies Manual 9th edition) 1200 strains of Salmonella that exist. But a quick web search will tell you there are over 2500 species. Wonder which of them these 17 cases contracted?The only effective way to test which species is present is with antigens and that is expensive. You can test fairly inexpensively the type, but that will include MANY different species. Of the different types only certain ones are found in reptiles.                         

Here is an example: Last semester I was in Microbiology and I took an active air sample for bacteria inside the micro lab. (The micro lab is a very clean environment we sanitized floors, tables and counter tops daily.) Once I grew the bacteria colonies I collected, I tested it to see what I had. One of the bacteria types that grew on the plate was a species of Salmonella (didn't have antigens so I couldn't test it to the species level). And this was floating around in the air! So I really wonder just where these people actually contracted their strain of salmonella from.

Mice Direct seems to be taking the steps to deal with the problem but the fact of the matter is bacteria is every where and even once the rats are treated they will still have bacteria present. Especially when they sit on your counter all day and defrost. 

The lesson to be learned here is WASH YOUR HANDS and SANITIZE YOUR AREA! Boycotts are not necessary, government oversight is not necessary. A little bit of personal responsibility is what is necessary here. 

For those of you who are yelling about the mice direct facility being dirty, their animals being sick and Mice direct not following proper handling procedures for preparing their product. 

I just want to know if you eat meat because I guarantee that the slaughter house your beef, chicken, pork and turkey come from is way nastier. Did you really think your hamburger came from a totally healthy cow  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ? 

In the end it really doesn't matter if the rats are irradiated. You just can't regulate stupid. If people continue to not follow proper sanitation procedures when handling raw meat they will continue to get sick. Raw chicken for human consumption is irradiated, are you going to rub it all over your hands then eat a sandwich? No your probably not.

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-29-2010),wolfy-hound (07-29-2010)

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## jkobylka

Being close to Mice Direct, I've been speaking with them throughout this process. A few things to remember:

FDA is on a hunt right now for salmonella in the pet food industry, because people handle the pet food. They are extremely thorough and I suspect that they would find contamination *MANY* rodent breeding operations. _(On a side note, if salmonella is introduced to a colony at any point, *and there are MANY ways that can happen* there is no way to know you've eliminated it except by replacing the entire colony)_The rodents are extremely healthy, they are carriers of  salmonella. Just like reptiles are.The FDA microbiologist has assured them that this type of salmonella has no affect on reptiles, so there is no chance peoples reptiles will be affectedThey have voluntarily began this irradiation process effectively deals with the salmonella. They are irradiating to levels that are even higher than what is required for human consumption. This process doesn't change the look, smell or taste of the rodents.

So in the end... 

Yes they have a problem, it's a problem that only affects people who handle the rodents and do not wash their hands...They are going above and beyond to fix the problem, possibly giving them one of the cleanest final product available.They are happy to assist anyone who wishes to replace their recalled product with the new irradiated product.

I hope this is helpful!

Justin

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-29-2010)

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## izoid

I think the fact that the microbiologist has assured us that our reptiles will not be harmed by this strain is encouraging.  My fear all along is not so much for myself but for my reptiles, even though I do lick each and evry rodent prior to feeding....just to ensure it tastes good.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Percentage of supermarket chicken contaminated with salmonella:  15%
Percentage of supermarket chicken contaminated with campylobacter:  80%

Where does salmonella come from?
Salmonella lives in the intestinal tracts of living animals.  Some strains of salmonella are pathogenic (they cause disease), while others do not cause disease.

Salmonella contamination in meat occurs when the intestinal contents or feces come into contact with the meat.

Obviously a whole, frozen animal contains the entire gut contents, including the intestinal flora.  If the animal is harboring any strain of salmonella, it will be ingested along with the gut contents.  This is harmless to a snake, which cannot generally contract the strains of salmonella found in mammals.

In short, unless you are eating whole, raw rodents yourself, or are foolish enough not to wash your hands after handling them, you aren't going to catch salmonella from frozen feeders, and neither are your snakes.

Salmonella cannot be reliably tested for, because if it is present in an animal, it frequently is shed in cycles, and not all at once.  A fecal test may come up clean one day, and contaminated the next.

By the way, every single last one of your frozen feeders from any supplier also contains e-coli bacteria.  So do you.  Tsk tsk.

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-29-2010),_kellysballs_ (07-29-2010)

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## Aes_Sidhe

Ehhh... I just try to be informative and this is why i post That info.. 
Now I see That we have little war going on  here.. and That wasn't my intention at all... *sighs*

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## Raptor

> thats OK MarkS i use plastic not paper so go try to collect elsewhere
> 
> man you people are harsh look the other way when somebody goes and poisons over a dozen people in over a dozen states. but jump on the guy who say they need to get stricter rules to operate to make sure they keep people safe.  guess everybody can see who could careless about other humans lives kids included. i'm sorry what did your mom or dad drop you on your head as a baby 
> 
> heck I've seen people get more outraged for getting an over cooked steak then you guys get from possibly being poisoned 
> 
> if you read there way of dealing with it notice they only agreed to cover cost of left over food not cover med bill of anybody infected that had to go to the ER or miss work 
> 
> 
> ...


Again. Run on sentences are bad. I'm getting tired of rereading your posts in order to understand what you're saying.

Not all animals are going to get sick from salmonella considering most of them carry it. The only ones that's going to get sick are ones that are young/old/extremely sick to begin with.

As a fyi, your dog/cat/bird/horse/etc can all carry salmonella. As can the chicken you buy from the store. Why do you think people are always saying to sanitize after handling raw chicken? Pork is also the same way, but I think that's due to worms.

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## loonunit

> What kind of grubby nasty person handles Frozen rats with their bare hands and doesn't wash them.. 
> 
> If we were lower life form's this would be called natural selection, the stupid ones die off and the other's move on with life.. 
> 
> Jesus..PEOPLE IF YOU HANDLE any kind of animal flesh please wash your damn grubby hands before you go chewing on your finger nails.. Or don't whine about being stupid and getting sick..


Children, apparently. We all know kids aren't so careful with hand washing, and are most vulnerable. Apparently 2/3s of the cases are kids of snake owners.

That statistic kinda freaks me out.

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## SquamishSerpents

please read this everybody!!!! Nanci, a very active memeber of "the other snake site" cornsnakes.com, as spoken directly with Mice Direct to get more information:

"I spoke with Jenea Wood last night about the recall. She is a distributor. She is also a CS.com member. This is what Jenea told me:

There isn't anything wrong with Mice Direct's Rodents. FDA has been investigating links between handling Rodents and getting Salmonella. There isn't any case against Mice Direct specifically - just general cases linking the handling of rats/mice & getting Salmonella. They chose to start their investigation at the Mice Direct facility. There are 17 cases linked with frozen feeders, not 17 cases linked with Mice Direct.

It is a fact that Mice & Rats carry Salmonella, so it is no surprise that the FDA found Salmonella in Mice Direct's products. The simple truth is that their Rodents are completely safe to use FOR THEIR INTENDED PURPOSE - Feeding your pet Reptiles. And people need to wash their hands after touching them. Most people know this-

Mice Direct has fully cooperated with the FDA and has already begun the process of Irradiating all products before they ship -- Something that no other Rodent dealer is doing. Expect to see Rodent Pro, American Rodent & the others to be held to same standards.

We have been aware of the FDA's arrival on the farm for a few weeks, and have been in communication through the entire proceedings. The media has twisted and blown out of proportion (just like they always do) everything that is going on. The short of it is, the FDA is trying to determine if they need to regulate frozen feeders like they regulate dog food production, and Mice Direct has become the media punching bag for the all the frozen feeder producers.

Jenea Wood

*********************************************

Here is a link to the statement on the Mice Direct site:

https://micedirect.com/2010recall/index.htm

Valued customers,

This is to inform you that MiceDirect has issued a voluntary recall. Over the years we have regularly tested our rodents for any potential issues. During one of these recent tests it was detected that a portion of our rodents may be potentially carrying Salmonella. Because of this we are offering a voluntary recall option to our customers.

Facts:

This particular type of Salmonella cannot be passed to your reptile. Reptiles carry other specific strains.

Salmonella is common in almost all groups of both domestic and wild animals
Salmonella can make you sick, small children and frail or elderly people are more susceptible.
Washing your hands prevents this risk of illness from Salmonella. Please wash your hands when handling.


When handling raw product, such as rodents, chicken, pork, beef or any dead animal, it is very important to thoroughly wash your hands. Washing your hands should keep you from becoming sick in the event you come into contact with Salmonella.

What we are doing:

We begun a voluntary program to irradiate all pet food products.

All of our products starting on July 24, 2010 are irradiated, in a similar manner to raw food for human consumption.
We are irradiating our products at a level equivalent to the standards for human consumption.
This product continues to be fully acceptable for consuming reptiles.
You can be confident that our quality standards meet or exceed the standards currently held by other companies.



You can be confident that our quality standards are superior.

Recall Information:

If you have unused product that was purchased between May 2009 and July 23, 2010, please contact us. We are happy to replace product purchased between the above stated dates with our new irradiated product at your request.

We take the quality of our product very seriously. Please contact us for further assistance.

To view our official press release you may Click Here.

Sincerely,

John Callaham

JULY 28, 2010

**********************

I feel quite reassured. I didn't take into consideration a fact which I knew- salmonella is species-specific. So while it's too bad this type can infect humans, what I was really worried about was my snakes!!

Anyway, it sounds like the replacement process should be quite straight forward. "

taken directly from this thread.

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## Jeremy78

I knew that I saw this somewhere!

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## Crazy4Herps

Not sure if this link has been posted yet.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/bu...e.html?_r=2&hp

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## ice#1

ok but this even if you use a towel to turn the water off aint water wet and soak up into the towel which you use to turn the sink off thus there is still a chance to get it from the towel or paper towel. it don't matter how well and clean you get your hands you still got to take a chance of getting it either soaked threw a paper towel or regular towel unless I'm the only person on the planet who has the problem of the towels getting wet when i dry my hands 


and i know how to wash my hands properly even if i just touch something with only my finger i wash up-to my elbows 


but no i dont got no grudge against anybody but have notice paranoid people usually think everybody does for some reason

but yeah i know not using punctuation bothers people and i do like it when i hear people crying about how it hurts there brains gives me a good laugh

lol
Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55% of plepoe can. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! fi yuo cna raed tihs, palce it in yuor porfiel.
this was a study Cambridge university did

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> lol
> Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55% of plepoe can. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! fi yuo cna raed tihs, palce it in yuor porfiel.
> this was a study Cambridge university did


I am curious how many times are you planning on posting this on the forum?

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_Bruce Whitehead_ (08-01-2010)

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## ice#1

just those 2 as far as i know is it against the rules or something just trying to figure why you asked that most places i've been and posted it everybody thought it was neat even forums mods like you sorry if it broke some kind of rule my bad

but I've only posted it of the green tree python forum on yuku and i think one other forum

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## KAW84

I just think that this is going to be a big can of worms... I personally have only bought from there once and had no probs with the product... its just cheaper for me to buy live since the guy lives a mile down the road... 

But I am glad that I can finally see what Flordia Hogs has to say as a distributor first hand instead of second hand through a local herp society....

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