# Colubrids > General Colubrids >  Russian Rat Regurgitated

## hilabeans

Bonsai is still on mice pinks and had his regularly scheduled feeding yesterday.  I had a feeling the pinkie I offered was a little on the big side compared to the usual size, but he still took it eagerly, although having a harder time than normal getting it down.  He spit it up at some point later, completely intact.

I know the general rule of thumb for beeps, no food or handling for a couple of weeks to recover.  Is this the same for colubrids?

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_CALM Pythons_ (01-17-2018)

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## dylan815

If you feed every week, take a week off and then try again. Maybe use a smaller food size if it was substantially larger than normal. Best of luck!

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_hilabeans_ (12-18-2017)

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## BallPythonWannaBe

Honestly have no idea as Russian Rats seem to be more hardy than beeps. Just to be safe though I'd follow the same rules and try to find smaller pinks to feed at first(not really sure if you could find anything smaller than day old mouse pinks)

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_hilabeans_ (12-18-2017)

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## Sylphie

It can happen, some russians really hate having too big meals, will eat them eagerly but then throw them up just like yours did. As a rule you should give him 2 weeks without food and then fed him one smaller pinky  :Smile:  Like you said it was probably too big so try to stay away from this size until he grows a little bigger.

It's the same as with corns, 2 weeks is a safe time for him to recover and then the next feeding should be smaller.

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_hilabeans_ (12-18-2017),_MissterDog_ (12-18-2017)

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## hilabeans

> It can happen, some russians really hate having too big meals, will eat them eagerly but then throw them up just like yours did. As a rule you should give him 2 weeks without food and then fed him one smaller pinky  Like you said it was probably too big so try to stay away from this size until he grows a little bigger.
> 
> It's the same as with corns, 2 weeks is a safe time for him to recover and then the next feeding should be smaller.


Ok, that's what I figured.  Thank you all for confirming.  Should I avoid handling him in that 2 week period as well?  And would it be beneficial to dust his next meal with Nutribac (probiotic) to help his system get back in check?

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## dylan815

I would suggest minimum handling and not using a dusting supplement. He should be getting all the necessary nutrients from the rodents.

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_hilabeans_ (12-18-2017)

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## redshepherd

How long did you thaw the pink? I suspect it might have still been slightly frozen on the inside?

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## hilabeans

> How long did you thaw the pink? I suspect it might have still been slightly frozen on the inside?


About an hour & a half in warm to hot water.  I felt him (the pink) all over and he felt warm and soft, but I didn't temp gun him.   He was the largest pink I've ever offered, and Bonsai struggled getting him down, so I'm inclined to think it was a size issue. But I guess it could have been a temp issue since I didn't check the pinkie temp before offering.

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## redshepherd

> About an hour & a half in warm to hot water.  I felt him (the pink) all over and he felt warm and soft, but I didn't temp gun him.   He was the largest pink I've ever offered, and Bonsai struggled getting him down, so I'm inclined to think it was a size issue. But I guess it could have been a temp issue since I didn't check the pinkie temp before offering.


Ah that should be more than enough time! It should barely leave a lump in them.

The other possibility is that it was way too hot when offered, or even slightly cooked, since you mention hot water. I always thaw in just a little warm to the touch water. If the water feels "hot" to our hands, it's way too hot.

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_hilabeans_ (12-18-2017),_MissterDog_ (12-18-2017),_zina10_ (12-22-2017)

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## zina10

It was probably just to big..

While Colubrids have a rapid metabolism, they don't usually load up like the pythons will. They eat smaller and more often.

Its actually LESS damaging to regurgitate within an hour of the meal, then days into it. You don't have all those corrosive digestion juices within that meal yet, scarring everything on its way up. 

However, do wait a bit, just to be safe, and then a smaller meal again. After that meal, if things go well, wait a little longer again in between meals, and then a smaller one again. 
If all goes well you should be able to go back to the regular schedule. 

The worm will grow rapidly, so you will go up in size, just be careful you never go above the circumference of the snake. Rather feed more often and smaller meals.

I think he will be just fine  :Smile:

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dr del (12-22-2017),_hilabeans_ (12-27-2017),_MissterDog_ (12-22-2017)

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## hilabeans

Ugh...I waited 1.5 weeks and offered again today.  This time a very small mouse pink.  And this time, a total refusal.  He sniffed around but never struck.  I tried enticing him a couple of different times before just leaving his mouse in there.  It's been two hours and he hasn't touched it.

He usually eats twice a week, Wed & Sat.  We haven't touched him or bothered him at all since his regurg, except for water changes.  I don't want to over worry, but he's still so young and these guys are known to be such great eaters - could it be weather related?  Or is he still traumatized from his last feeding?

Sooo...wait another week?  Wait two weeks?  Help me obi-wan bp.net, you're my only hope.

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## redshepherd

That is odd, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. :s 

If he's not already, I'd move him into a completely sterile little tub (just a white paper towel, 1-2 hides, one water bowl) just in case, to keep a close eye on if anything weird happens.

I'd offer again in 5 days or so, just wait the full 2 weeks minimum after a regurge. You could just be offering too early.

Just in case I'll mention again, but I would make sure you're not offering the pinks too hot. The water should just be barely warm, not warm to hot. I honestly don't know why some people on the forum are recommending new keepers to heat f/t prey in HOT water... It should not be hot lol.

No way that it's weather related especially for such a tiny hatchling who barely ate, and that you're keeping your ambient temps steady... Mine hasn't missed a meal.

I hope your dude eats soon!

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_hilabeans_ (12-28-2017),_MissterDog_ (12-28-2017)

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## MissterDog

> Just in case I'll mention again, but I would make sure you're not offering the pinks too hot. The water should just be barely warm, not warm to hot. I honestly don't know why some people on the forum are recommending new keepers to heat f/t prey in HOT water... It should not be hot lol.


I've been wondering this too. It's entirely possible to damage (too mushy or explode) or even _cook_ your prey item when you place it in hot or the hottest your tap water can get off the bat, even if it was thawed in the fridge beforehand.

Anyways, I hope your boy eats for you again Hila! I'm agreeing with Redshepherd and just wait abit longer to give your little one more time to recover.

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_hilabeans_ (12-28-2017),_redshepherd_ (12-28-2017)

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## hilabeans

Thank you all. I used basically room temp water to thaw this last pink in. Not warm and nowhere near hot, just to be sure.  I'll work on getting him into a new tub today and then offer again in 5 days. 

I did weigh him yesterday and he's lost .3 grams. ☹️

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## MissterDog

Keep everyone posted! I'm unfamiliar with how much weight loss is considered worrisome for colubrids but hopefully Sylphie, Zina10 or Redshepherd can offer their insight on that!

Best of luck!

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_hilabeans_ (12-28-2017)

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## zina10

Well, I don't like to "disagree" with other members advice, but perhaps its not so much disagreement but a slightly different view.

I ALWAYS use "hot" water before offering f/t food items. If the rodent is even just slightly less then "very warm" , say room temp, hardly any of my snakes will even react to it. 

That said, there IS such a thing as TO hot, for warming up f/t rodents. Of course there is. 

It gets more tricky the smaller the rodent is. A large or medium rat can handle hotter temps before getting "questionable". If you use a nekkid little rat or mouse pinkie, you have to go about it slightly different. 

Start out with a well thawed out rodent. I use cold water for a couple of hours. 

After that, use slightly hotter then lukewarm water for about 5 minutes, then drain water and then hit it with hot water for about 5 minutes. Hot, as in hotter then just warm, but not burning hot !!! 

The trick is to get them up to temperature a little slower then a larger rodent, and not leave them in that hot water for as long as a larger rodent. And of course, as everyone said, don't use water that is burning hot. 

If you use barely luke or room temperature water, you won't get any but the most well established and "used to this" snake to go for that. Heat signature is one of the (big) ways to tell them this is "food". In time they get used to this type of feeding and not so picky about the exact temp or smell of the rodent. But a new/young snake can be trickier with that. 

Those tiny food items also cool off rapidly. Sometimes on the way to the cage you already have a cold rodent. The wetness and air movement cools them fast. 

I would try above method and wrap the wet pinky in a few sheets of paper towels as you carry it to the cage. It will dry it off and preserve the heat a bit longer. Then offer..

You can also hit it with a blow dryer near the cage, so you can offer quickly while rodent feels warm. 

If you move him, then DO give him a few days to get settled before offering again.

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_hilabeans_ (12-28-2017)

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## hilabeans

> If you move him, then DO give him a few days to get settled before offering again.


On my phone, so won't get to thoroughly read until I'm back online. But was going to go get supplies for a new, smaller ,"observation" tub while I'm out.  Do you feel I should still move him into a small tub?

I felt like this last pinkie I offered was cooler than any I've offered before, but I was maybe over-correcting so as not to offer something too hot.  I guess I'm totally questioning everything I ever did before, and should just do whatever I did originally because it always worked until the last big pinkie screwed everything up. He was always a champion eater until then. 

Is the weight loss a big concern?

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## zina10

> On my phone, so won't get to thoroughly read until I'm back online. But was going to go get supplies for a new, smaller ,"observation" tub while I'm out.  Do you feel I should still move him into a small tub?
> 
> I felt like this last pinkie I offered was cooler than any I've offered before, but I was maybe over-correcting so as not to offer something too hot.  I guess I'm totally questioning everything I ever did before, and should just do whatever I did originally because it always worked until the last big pinkie screwed everything up. He was always a champion eater until then. 
> 
> Is the weight loss a big concern?


I do not believe its a big concern just yet. Of course, with young snakes, you have to be more diligent about everything and about monitoring and fixing problems. 

Since the last meal WAS bigger then usual and regurged almost immediately, I tend to think size was the issue. The quick regurge is actually less strain on the body, then one after a few days. However, if there is a underlying problem that caused it, its still concerning. 

Since you have had no other issues, before and then, I tend to think perhaps it was just to big.

You should follow your own instincts, but imho it would be worth ONE more try in his old enclosure. Since a move in itself can be stress. Of course a move can help in some instances, but like you said, he was fine before...so I do not think you have parasites to worry about, or that he feels unsafe in a larger enclosure. 

Make sure your temps are right. They don't need high temps like Ball Pythons (actually, to high is harmful, they are from a cooler climate) but do offer a area where he can warm up a bit if he chooses so. Without raising the ambient to high. I'm sure you already know the parameters, though. Just double check them..

Warm that pinky up a bit more. NO water so hot that it hurts your hands, but it does need to give off a heat signature. 

go SLOW with heating up. First defrost...then very warm water for 5 minutes, then hot (not burning) water for 5 minutes. Try to keep it warm while transporting to cage (wrap in paper towels), offer. If its slightly to cool, hit it with a hair dryer, again, don't cook it though !! 

Its hard to give advice through the computer. What is hot to one person, is burning hot to another, or just very warm. Err on caution. You can always hit it with a blow dryer for a min, rather then cooking it in the water  :Wink:  

Don't drive yourself to crazy just yet. Try the small meal and see what happens. If he takes it, NO stressing for a few days. But do observe for eventual issues.

Should there be another regurge (hopefully not) we will re-visit  :Wink: 

Good luck !!

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_hilabeans_ (12-28-2017)

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## hilabeans

Sounds like a plan!!  

My instincts tell me first rejected mouse was too big, and second rejected mouse was too cool.  But since I'm new to this little one, and snakes in general, I am getting all bewildered and out of sorts about this hiccup.  I'm going to wait 5 days and then offer a warm pink according to the above guidelines, as that's what always worked before, and just get this thing back on track.  I really don't suspect anything other than the two mice being less than ideal for my little hatchling. 

I'll update everyone next week - hopefully with a good report!

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_zina10_ (12-28-2017)

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## hilabeans

Well I wanna cry.  He's still refusing.  He's so tiny, I don't think he can keep up with this.  I'm heartbroken and starting to freak out.

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## greco

Do you have any way to get a live pink?

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

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## hilabeans

I think I am going to try and source a live pink for the next offer.

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## zina10

Is there a exotic vet you could go to? The chances of internal parasites are small since it's a cb baby, but perhaps worth ruling out. You could also get some Nutribac for reptiles. It helps out the intestinal tract. Could you reach out to the breeder to see if they have any advice for you? Don't panic. They are small but they are a smaller species to begin with. Any signs of oncoming shed? Respiratory issues? Other behavior that differs from before? Get the live pink...dust a bit of Nutribac on it. The back end of the pink so it doesn't put your snake off from grabbing it...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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_hilabeans_ (01-01-2018),_SDA_ (01-01-2018)

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## hilabeans

I do have Nutribac.  I posted on the elaphe schrenckii FB board and was advised trying live in 5 days, so that's what I'll try next with the Nutribac.  Temps are perfect and he looks healthy otherwise. No signs of external parasites, no changes to enclosure, no obvious signs of shed yet - but it could be coming.

I have an exotic vet in town and that will be my next resort if he refuses live, I just worry about stressing him too much.  Not sure how long such a tiny little thing can go without eating.  Dec. 13 was his last consumed meal.  I think because he was such a voracious eater before, and they are known for being such great eaters, the no-eating thing is really upsetting me.  But I'm trying to be patient.  I just worry about him being so young and small at only 13.7 grams.  I would be so devastated if something happened to him.  :Tears:

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## zina10

> I do have Nutribac.  I posted on the elaphe schrenckii FB board and was advised trying live in 5 days, so that's what I'll try next with the Nutribac.  Temps are perfect and he looks healthy otherwise. No signs of external parasites, no changes to enclosure, no obvious signs of shed yet - but it could be coming.
> 
> I have an exotic vet in town and that will be my next resort if he refuses live, I just worry about stressing him too much.  Not sure how long such a tiny little thing can go without eating.  Dec. 13 was his last consumed meal.  I think because he was such a voracious eater before, and they are known for being such great eaters, the no-eating thing is really upsetting me.  But I'm trying to be patient.  I just worry about him being so young and small at only 13.7 grams.  I would be so devastated if something happened to him.


Well, they are small to begin with, so for him, that is still in the "ok" range. He hasn't lost a huge amount by far. 

If you do go the route of the vet, bring your Nutribac with you. Perhaps your vet can syringe a bit of nutribac slush into him while there. IF the vet recommends that, of course. 

I'm hesitant to advise anything more drastic as of yet (like you doing the syringing at home) because at this point the stress may be worse then just a bit more patience and trying live pinks. 

Don't panic to much just yet and don't beat yourself up. You are doing all you can. You have more options if the live feeding doesn't work.

One step at a time. 

I'm crossing fingers and toes over here, that he will eat and get back "to normal".

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_hilabeans_ (01-01-2018)

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## hilabeans

He took his sweet time, nearly 20 minutes, sitting near, on, under, over and around the squirming pinkie, nuzzling every nook and cranny, before slowly maneuvering his mouth around and swallowing.  I thought I was going to lose my mind, but he did _FINALLY_ eat it.

I think I'm going to wait 10 days so he hopefully gets good and hungry after this meal and then offer f/t to him from a fresh batch.  The pink was dusted with a little Nutribac on his backside, so hopefully that helps settle things too.

P.S.  Feeding live was absolutely dreadful and the poor thing squeaked the whole way down.   :Tears:   I hope I never have to do it again.

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_Alicia_ (01-10-2018),C.Marie (01-05-2018),_MissterDog_ (01-05-2018),_Starscream_ (01-05-2018),_tttaylorrr_ (01-06-2018)

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## zina10

Awesome!! So happy for you  I have to admit...I don't like to feed live either. For a few reasons, and rat babies are so cute, too...

However, I will do what it takes to take care of the snakes and sometimes that means feeding live. Or even to prekill. 

Hopefully your baby will be on course again with frozen thawed, but sometimes it takes a couple live feedings...

I'm so glad he took it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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_hilabeans_ (01-05-2018)

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## hilabeans

> Hopefully your baby will be on course again with frozen thawed, but sometimes it takes a couple live feedings...


Oh gosh, I hope not.  But yes, will do whatever it takes...even if it's horrible.  Just so happy he finally ate, the stinking brat.

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_zina10_ (01-05-2018)

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## zina10

So I suppose all went well ? No regurgitation? 

 :Smile:

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_hilabeans_ (01-08-2018)

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## hilabeans

No regurge!  Yay!  He hasn't pooped yet, so that's the next watch I'm keeping, just to make sure everything looks healthy there.

I keep debating if I should offer one - or even 2 - more live feedings, just to get some more calories in him before trying to go back to f/t.  As much as I hate to, they're at least a sure thing.  Or I could try braining a f/t next.  Bleh.

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## zina10

Back when I worked with rescues and sick snakes, I've tried the "braining". That never worked for me, while other tricks would ...

That said, I would try one more live, smaller pinky, dusted once again.

After that, you can be sure the lost weight is re-gained, the nutribac had a chance to do its work and no regurges happened. That's when I would try f/t again, after at least 5 to 6 days "break", so he's nice and hungry  :Wink:

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## hilabeans

> Back when I worked with rescues and sick snakes, I've tried the "braining". That never worked for me, while other tricks would ...
> 
> That said, I would try one more live, smaller pinky, dusted once again.
> 
> After that, you can be sure the lost weight is re-gained, the nutribac had a chance to do its work and no regurges happened. That's when I would try f/t again, after at least 5 to 6 days "break", so he's nice and hungry



Yep.  Ok, I totally agree.  I'm gonna suck it up and feed live one more time to have the best chance to set him up for success.  

Thank you a million times over for your - and everyone's - support through my first speed bump.   :Bowdown:    Hopefully once his eating is back on track, I can post some nice pics  of him in his progression thread.  We've been leaving him totally alone  for the last few weeks and really miss him.

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_zina10_ (01-08-2018)

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## zina10

> Yep.  Ok, I totally agree.  I'm gonna suck it up and feed live one more time to have the best chance to set him up for success.  
> 
> Thank you a million times over for your - and everyone's - support through my first speed bump.     Hopefully once his eating is back on track, I can post some nice pics  of him in his progression thread.  We've been leaving him totally alone  for the last few weeks and really miss him.


I know its hard to be "hands off" with such a cute little noodle...

But just think, that species actually seems to like being fussed over and they are nosy little things. So you will be able to make up for lost time when you are over this hiccup  :Smile:  Once they take off they do seem to grow at a pretty good clip. I actually used to take my female on walks, LOL. Well, she tagged along while I walked my dog. 
And no, I would never recommend doing that with just any snake. I also rarely ever saw another person where I walked, so noone to "freak out". 

I had her under my hoodie and her little head and neck hung out above the zipper. It was funny how her head was "nodding" along with the steps I took. She never moved anything at all other then her head, looking around. 

They really are the funniest snakes  :Wink:

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_Alicia_ (01-10-2018),_hilabeans_ (01-08-2018),_MissterDog_ (01-10-2018),_Starscream_ (01-08-2018)

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## MissterDog

I'm late to the party but I'm so glad your little guy ate! Here is hoping for more successful feeds and that he will go back to f/t in time. I commend you for being able to tough through it and giving him what he needs despite not wanting to feed live. I would have such a hard time too! So great big awesome mom award to you!

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_hilabeans_ (01-10-2018)

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## hilabeans

> So great big awesome mom award to you!


*I accept this award on behalf of all the other bleeding heart snake moms & dads who have had to tearfully offer live for the health of their beloved noodles.  I did not get here on my own, but owe thanks to the bp.net community and the support provided by the awesome members here.  I also thank my agent, publicist, nutritionist, stylist, make-up artist, and therapist.*

Seriously though, I'm planning one more live feed just to increase odds of success and I'm *literally* having dreams (nightmares?) of it almost nightly.  That squeaking!!!   :Tears:   But a mom's gotta do what she's gotta do.

I'll update this thread again on the results.  I think it's important to record all this as it shows even snakes with impeccable eating reputations can get weird about it.  One of the main reasons I was drawn to the RRS was because of their feeding response, vs bps, thinking it would practically eliminate the idea of ever having to feed live.  AND HERE I AM!   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Almost as bad as feeding live is the not handling him while he comes out of it.  We miss him terribly.  Patience, patience...

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_Alicia_ (01-10-2018),_tttaylorrr_ (01-12-2018),_zina10_ (01-10-2018)

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## hilabeans

If I could decipher where his neck was, I think I'd ring it...

I got another live feeder yesterday and tempted him with it.  He ran away from it like I was trying to kill him.  He finally settled down and I left the writhing pink next to his head.  He just sat there staring at it, so I left them alone.  After 2 hours the mouse no longer moved and I assumed it was dead, or dying.  Bonsai hadn't moved either so I just left the two of them there and went out with the fam for a few hours.  When we returned late last night, the mouse was gone and Bonsai was in his hide.

I assume he ate his mouse, though I didn't lift his hide to check.  I'll do that this evening when I get home from work.  I just can't believe this once bold, ravenous eater has turned into this hesitant, disinterested, nervous little thing.  I do not want to keep feeding live, I absolutely hate it, but if it takes him hours to eat a _live_ mouse - surely he's going to totally turn down a f/t?  Right?

Could time of feeding be an issue?  We leave the house early every morning, before the sun is up, so I've been offering his food in the late afternoons between 4-5 PM when we're home and he's out.  As a diurnal snake, is this a turnoff for him?  It never mattered before, but now I'm grasping at straws trying to figure out why he's completely changed his tune on food.

I would really love to end this thread, but the corner I'm trying to turn seems as far away as ever.    :Sad:

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_zina10_ (01-13-2018)

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## zina10

Ok, let's look at this from another point of view  :Smile: 


He did accept the former live feeding after regurging. That is GREAT !! 
He never regurged that feeding. That is AWESOME !!! What a relief  :Smile: 

He was hesitant about the next feeding, even though it was live. But in the end..he took it. That is FANTASTIC !!

That mean, even IF something was going on, he is getting better.

It doesn't matter what it takes, or how long it takes. He is on the up-swing. That is so much better news then it could be. 

Who knows what happened originally. Perhaps there was something off with that particular rodent he regurged. Or he had a bit of a stomach ailment or for whichever reason didn't feel all fit. It was a GOOD sign he ate after that and even BETTER he didn't regurge it. 

But just perhaps, digesting that meal was still a bit more difficult for him and he is a bit hesitant. At this time we can only guess...

I think its a fantastic sign that he did take that live pink yesterday, even though he wasn't all that excited. Perhaps he is going into another shed now after all ? Time line would be about right. Maybe he smelled the Nutribac on it?  Either way, he took it  :Smile: 

While its frustrating, try to look on the bright side.

I don't like live feedings either, esp. with those cute babies. 

But this snake is YOUR baby, and right now he needs a little "extra" care and you will have to brave the thought of a couple more live feedings. Because if that's what it takes to get him over this hiccup, that is what you will do..because you love your little noodle. 

That said, wait about 8 or 9 days until the next feeding. See if he goes into shed. If not, let the nutribac do its thing and let him clear himself out and get a little hungry. Then try another live pink. See if he is more "excited". Once he gets all excited about food again, you can think about f/t. 

 :Smile:

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_hilabeans_ (01-13-2018)

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## hilabeans

The voice of reason...thank you zina.  You're right, he IS eating.  And for that I should be happy.  Both pinks were nutribac-ed, so that may have thrown the smell off.  I will give him a solid 9 days and try again.  

Can I offer f/t on the off chance he'll take it after 9 days?  Or do you feel strongly that I should do another live feed, or two?  

My husband held him on his chest today while I did a thorough clean of his tub, and just sweet-talked him the whole time.  We really do love him, he is such a sweet little thing.  This is the first time we've had him out of his tub in weeks.  Hope that doesn't set him back, but he really needed a freshen up of everything.

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_zina10_ (01-13-2018)

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## zina10

> The voice of reason...thank you zina.  You're right, he IS eating.  And for that I should be happy.  Both pinks were nutribac-ed, so that may have thrown the smell off.  I will give him a solid 9 days and try again.  
> 
> Can I offer f/t on the off chance he'll take it after 9 days?  Or do you feel strongly that I should do another live feed, or two?  
> 
> My husband held him on his chest today while I did a thorough clean of his tub, and just sweet-talked him the whole time.  We really do love him, he is such a sweet little thing.  This is the first time we've had him out of his tub in weeks.  Hope that doesn't set him back, but he really needed a freshen up of everything.


Well, by now you know him.

Can you usually tell when he is getting "antsy" for food? Does he start looking for it, get more active?

If you can tell when he gets hungry, and starts acting that way in a week or so, give it an extra day or two and then try f/t. But do NOT chase him around with it, do a "crazy" dance with it or anything like this. Hold it up to him, move it a bit, and give him a couple of chances to go for it. If he runs, or will NOT go for it, wait another day and then give live. 

At this point its all about experimenting with what works, without stressing him. 

All in all, its looking very good and I'm glad he is on the upswing  :Smile:

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_hilabeans_ (01-13-2018)

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## hilabeans

> Well, by now you know him.
> 
> Can you usually tell when he is getting "antsy" for food? Does he start looking for it, get more active


Yes, normally.  But he's been so much less active in the last few weeks.  He's usually in his hide, or swirled up on top of his plant.  He has not displayed his normal hunger posturing in some time.  

I will wait 9 days, offer a f/t and see what happened.  If it's a no-go, which it likely will be, I will offer live 3 days after that.  Not sure if shed is on the horizon, he's lost 2 grams and is at 12g at the moment.  How long can I leave a thawed pink in with him until it goes bad? 

Here is his favorite spot, if he's not in his hide:







I don't know how he does it, but he loves to be perched right on top of his tree.  The two white strips visible are on the outside. I have his jumpstart velcro'd to the outside of his tub.

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## zina10

He is so very cute 

Have you checked your ambient temp? He seems to seek out a warm spot in the light. 

But since they like to be right out in the open anyway...that may not mean anything. They don't really like it real warm, but make sure the ambient isn't to low (or high...LOL). 

I'm sure you have done all that already, but  I'm just trying to think of things...

They may still shed even if there isn't weight gain. My big male BP shed during his fast...So who knows 

I think he will be fine. Perhaps he is confused and trying to hibernate? Lol...

As long as he is eating something and keeping it down, you don't need to worry over much..


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## hilabeans

Ambient had gotten down to 68° with the weather changes, but when all of his food issues started i raised them and they have been fluctuating between 70° and 75°.  I raised his warm hide by a couple of degrees too, to 82°-84°.

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## zina10

I wonder if the short cold snap triggered his "brumation" ? I've heard some go off feed around the fall...

Also, they like to "bask" during their shed cycle..

This is a cool article 

http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Snak...an-Rat-Snakes/

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_hilabeans_ (01-13-2018)

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## hilabeans

Yes, great article!! It's very possible.  We've had an unusually cold winter for central TX, and it snuck up on us rather rapidly.  I've gotten conflicting advice on brumating him.  I think I will try it once he's older, especially if he goes off food again, but I'm just not sure about doing it at his age.  Plus I don't have a cooler that I can set to constant temp now.

But I've read it can be good for them and they generally come out of it nice and hungry.  So next winter I'm going to look into it.

I would love it if he's getting ready to shed!  He's only done it once since I've had him.  I'll keep my eye on him.

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## zina10

I never brumated mine and they never went off of feed, but our house never fluctuated much. If anything it would get to warm, esp. that one time our AC broke down..

But it could be that this short cold snap triggered something in his body and that is why he is a bit reluctant to eat. I would continue feeding him, but not worry about him not being as excited about it. If the temps stay stable, he may get excited about food soon again.

He sure is a cutie, though  :Smile:

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_hilabeans_ (01-13-2018)

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## hilabeans

I just found found him stiff and spread out on his cage floor.  I think he is gone.  I am gutted and in disbelief.  We are holding him but no signs of life.  Why did this happen.

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## MissterDog

I'm so sorry for your loss and that you had to go through such a heart breaking experience  :Sad:  You did absolutely everything you could!

 Do you think it's possible you can take him to the vet to see if they can do a necropsy? Maybe they can figure out what happened?

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_hilabeans_ (01-18-2018)

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## zina10

What???

Omg...nooooo...
What in the world...

It's not your fault, whatever happens, though. For some reason he got sick back then, and they don't all recover...

I'm sad for you...


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_hilabeans_ (01-18-2018)

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## hilabeans

I am desperate for answers.  I have to know if I did something to cause this.  Should I freeze him?  What is the best way to preserve him until I can get him to the vet for a necropsy?  I will call first thing in the morning.

We are so completely devastated.

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## hilabeans

> What???
> 
> Omg...nooooo...
> What in the world...
> 
> It's not your fault, whatever happens, though. For some reason he got sick back then, and they don't all recover...
> 
> I'm sad for you...
> 
> ...



I just don't understand - I am consumed with guilt.  I really tried everything I could think of to make him better.  We are sobbing and heartbroken.  This is such a resilient species, I don't know what I did wrong.

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## zina10

No don't freeze him! Put him in a paper towel and zip lock and the fridge. Freezing destroys tissue that can't be tested anymore...


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_hilabeans_ (01-18-2018)

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## zina10

I'm so very very sorry. He did so well until that one feeding. Perhaps something was wrong with that rodent? Or perhaps the little one had a issue that stayed hidden for awhile... 
I would want a full necropsy too..


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_hilabeans_ (01-18-2018)

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## hilabeans

> No don't freeze him! Put him in a paper towel and zip lock and the fridge. Freezing destroys tissue that can't be tested anymore...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Done.  I will call the vet in the morning.  Even after reluctantly eating the two live feeders he still lost weight.  He just wasn't thriving.  I just couldn't get him to turn the corner.  Poor sweet little thing.

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## hilabeans

Just dropped him off at the vet, hopefully will get word late today or tomorrow.  An awful sleepless night with my daughter, consumed with grief.  I hope the necropsy gives us answers. 

I reached out to his breeder to see if they've seen anything else in his litter.  They are as perplexed as we are.  They've never had problems with their Russians before.  Which tells me it must be something I did.  Half-wit pothead teenagers keep their snakes alive, and I managed to kill one of the hardiest species.  Unbelievable.

We loved him hard for the couple of months we had him.

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## John1982

Sorry for your loss. I hope the necropsy sheds some light on the issue but even if it doesn't you shouldn't blame yourself. Not all snakes are destined to live, even with the best of care.

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_hilabeans_ (01-18-2018),_zina10_ (01-18-2018)

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## zina10

> Just dropped him off at the vet, hopefully will get word late today or tomorrow.  An awful sleepless night with my daughter, consumed with grief.  I hope the necropsy gives us answers. 
> 
> I reached out to his breeder to see if they've seen anything else in his litter.  They are as perplexed as we are.  They've never had problems with their Russians before.  Which tells me it must be something I did.  Half-wit pothead teenagers keep their snakes alive, and I managed to kill one of the hardiest species.  Unbelievable.
> 
> We loved him hard for the couple of months we had him.



Stop that right there. You did nothing wrong. 

You let us follow you on your journey with that little dude, his setup, his feeding, his schedule. 

And you are right. Others don't try half as hard to do it right, and their snakes are fine. Its NOT you !!!


There are so many variables. It could have been a birth defect. I got a beautiful Angolan Python a few years ago. My username was her name, Zina. That is a HARDY species. They were quite expensive back then. I was offered a little one that had a funny little defect on the belly. Just a line going through the scales where it shouldn't be. (not the belly button) It shouldn't have affected the snake and it didn't seem to. Snake was perfectly fine for a very long time. Until I found her dead one morning, many months and feedings later. All I can think, perhaps something INSIDE of the snake was also not right, and sometimes it takes time to become an issue. And not always do you see it on the outside..

It could have been that feeder. At that small size of feeders I doubt it was because it wasn't defrosted right or to warm. That would have caused a regurge, but not this drawn out listlessness and subsequent death. Besides, you know what TO warm is, and those tiny ones defrost so fast, no way was there a "cold" spot in there without you noticing. Unless that feeder had some kind of "poison" in it, due to what the mother was fed, or decomp setting in before freezing. Highly un-likely, but again, one never knows. 

It could have been a virus or illness of some sort. Perhaps had it from before, or something that hitch hiked from a petstore or so ? That can happen to anyone. Perhaps the little ones body decided to go into hibernation and something went hay wire in its digestion system? 

And lastly...sometimes you just get sick and die. Despite everything that is tried and done. 

Whatever it was, it was not something you did. And you know it. Its juts part of the grief to want to blame it on something/someone, and often we point the finger at ourselves. 

Sanitize the enclosure, throw away what cannot be sanitized, dust yourself off and when you are ready, welcome another new member to the family. 

You provide an excellent home to these creatures, and that is what so many of them need..

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_AbsoluteApril_ (01-18-2018),_hilabeans_ (01-18-2018),_tttaylorrr_ (01-18-2018)

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## hilabeans

(crying)  Thank you Zina.

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_zina10_ (01-19-2018)

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## tttaylorrr

i am so, so sorry for you and your daughter's loss. you were nothing but an excellent snarent, and i'm sure you know that deep down. 

sending positive vibes~
 :Group Hug:

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_hilabeans_ (01-18-2018),_zina10_ (01-18-2018)

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## Prognathodon

Im so sorry. I had to put down my husbands little Deckerts rat snake a couple weeks ago, and it was really really hard, even though wed seen it coming. I suspect our little guy came to us with mites and was never healthy to begin with, but I still had to fight not to beat myself up with everything I might have done wrong. And now Im getting all sniffly again.


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_hilabeans_ (01-18-2018),_zina10_ (01-18-2018)

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## AbsoluteApril

I'm very sorry for your loss. I can't say anything that Zina hasn't already said so nicely, please accept my sympathies.

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_hilabeans_ (01-18-2018),_zina10_ (01-18-2018)

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## hilabeans

The vet confirmed - a 'significant' bacterial infection in his liver and stomach.  His heart and lungs looked good.  He could have gotten the infection from a bad feeder.  He could have had it before he even came to us because it can take a long time to present.  But those questions will be left unanswered.  

I will pick up his remains next week and we will give him a proper burial.

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## MissterDog

Very unfortunate news but atleast we know this was something you couldn't have possibly known. This isn't your fault. You gave him your all and absolute best.  :Hug:  Rest in peace sweet Bonsai!

By chance do you have any idea if it may have been from the live or frozen feeders? Which supplier did you get them from?

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## tttaylorrr

> The vet confirmed - a 'significant' bacterial infection in his liver and stomach.  His heart and lungs looked good.  He could have gotten the infection from a bad feeder.  He could have had it before he even came to us because it can take a long time to present.  But those questions will be left unanswered.  
> 
> I will pick up his remains next week and we will give him a proper burial.


i hope the results bring you peace of mind that you did everything you could have done.
~ ~ ~

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## hilabeans

> i hope the results bring you peace of mind that you did everything you could have done.


Yes, for sure. While we're still mourning, it does bring me some peace knowing it wasn't some dumb rookie mistake I made.  





> Very unfortunate news but atleast we know this was something you couldn't have possibly known. This isn't your fault. You gave him your all and absolute best.  Rest in peace sweet Bonsai!
> 
> By chance do you have any idea if it may have been from the live or frozen feeders? Which supplier did you get them from?



Sadly, there was no way for the doctor to tell how long he had it or where he could have definitively gotten it from. He guesses it was for a while because of how pronounced it was, and because it can take a long time to build.  We had Bonzai for 2.5 months and he said he could have had the beginnings of it before he even got to us.  He could have gotten it from feeders, or from another reptile.  But it's all just a guess.  

During the time we had him, we gave him f/t pinkies from two different sources.  One was from PetSmart, and the other was a local mom & pop pet store.  From the little pet shop - I can't remember the brand name of the pinks, but they came by the dozen in a little blue box, individually sealed in plastic.  That was the brand of the regurged mouse.  I'll get the name when I get home, I think I still have some in the freezer. 

The two live feeders also came from two different sources.  One from a local specialty reptile store and the last from a BRB breeder in town who also sells his own mice.  But Bonzai was already sick by the time he got those, so I don't think it was the live feeders.

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## zina10

My condolences..

Do not let this stop you from trying again, it was not your fault. 

This can happen to any of us..

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_hilabeans_ (01-24-2018)

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