# Other Pythons > General Pythons >  Wiggles, the Children's Python

## Homebody

Meet Wiggles, my new Children's Python.

Wiggles was hatched on July 29, 2020.  He was produced by Exotics Unlimited and sold as a pet to Steve Hager, a high-end hognose snake breeder in Maryland.  Steve sold him to me to make room for additional projects.  I picked him up last Saturday.  After a quick introduction to the family, he's been adjusting to his new 3x2x2 enclosure, climbing on his branches...

and basking on his slate...
.
Tonight, he took his first meal...
.
I'm looking forward to spending many happy years together and sharing them with all of you.

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_Albert Clark_ (03-10-2022),blisterbeetle (03-10-2022),*Bogertophis* (03-09-2022),_Caitlin_ (03-10-2022),_dakski_ (03-09-2022),_EL-Ziggy_ (03-14-2022),_Hugsplox_ (03-15-2022),_Luvyna_ (03-14-2022),_MD_Pythons_ (10-13-2022),_richardhind1972_ (03-10-2022),_Trinityblood_ (03-09-2022)

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## Bogertophis

He's a handsome little guy, & I hope you have MANY happy years enjoying him.   :Love:    He looks very much at ease too- I'm sure he's enjoying his new home.

By the way, I think you made a great choice, getting a well-started young snake, rather than a hatchling.  Not that a hatchling would have been 'difficult' but they're so much smaller, & you thought this guy was tiny, lol.

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_Homebody_ (03-09-2022)

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## Homebody

> I'm sure he's enjoying his new home.


Steve had him in 12 quart tub.  I suppose breeders are always short on space.  I figured out that my 3x2x2 works out to about 90 gallons, so it's a big change for him.  I hope he enjoys it.

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_Albert Clark_ (03-13-2022)

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## Homebody

> By the way, I think you made a great choice, getting a well-started young snake, rather than a hatchling.  Not that a hatchling would have been 'difficult' but they're so much smaller, & you thought this guy was tiny, lol.


A hatchling would have blown my mind, and made me way too nervous.  They're so fragile.

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_Albert Clark_ (03-10-2022),*Bogertophis* (03-09-2022),_Hugsplox_ (03-15-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> Steve had him in 12 quart tub.  I suppose breeders are always short on space.  I figured out that my 3x2x2 works out to about 90 gallons, so it's a big change for him.  I hope he enjoys it.


I'm sure he will- these aren't as shy as BPs, from what I've seen.  When I got my Spotted python (Antaresia maculosa) she was a tiny yearling, & explored her new, much larger home in the same way yours is doing.  And today, I just moved her into a larger tank, & she checked it all out, then drank some water, sat on her driftwood, then parked herself in her warm hide with her face & tail at the doorway, calmly checking out her new view for a while.  These are very cool pythons.   :Cool:   And they seem fairly smart as snakes go, which I think helps them adapt easier than some snakes do.

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_Caitlin_ (03-10-2022),_Homebody_ (03-09-2022)

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## Homebody

> ...these aren't as shy as BPs, from what I've seen.


I would have been nervous putting a hatchling in such a large enclosure, but you, and I think some others, assured me that it wouldn't be an issue.  And, of course, I didn't end up getting a hatchling.

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_Albert Clark_ (03-10-2022),*Bogertophis* (03-10-2022)

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## Albert Clark

He looks really healthy and like he was waiting for you to pick him up from Steve. Congrats. I sense a perfect fit!

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_Homebody_ (03-10-2022)

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## Homebody

Im starting to understand what others mean when they say Antaresia are more aware and interactive than other snakes.  As Wiggles is still settling in, rather than handling him, Ive been opening his enclosure and just sitting by the opening.  Yesterday, Wiggles came over to investigate the fresh air, I suppose.  Not wanting him to leave the enclosure, I slowly put my hand up to block his progress.  He stopped.  I slowly pulled my hand back.  He advanced again.  This time not toward the open air but toward my hand.  I got worried thinking that he was confusing my fingers for food.  So, I got up and quickly put hand sanitizer on my hands and returned.  This time when he smelled my finger he recoiled slightly.  He advanced again, smelled my finger, and recoiled again.  We did this a few times.  It became a game of sorts.  Then I put my face closer to the enclosure.  He advanced again this time toward my face.  I started to wish Id put hand sanitizer on my nose and I pulled back.  Then, this became the game.  I even let him boop my snoop.  Still not sure if he was investigating my nose as food, I decided to end the game there.  I wanted to keep our time together positive for both of us.  I cant remember ever interacting with my bp in quite this way. I would give my bp games to play and watch him play them, but I dont remember him ever playing a game with me.

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_Albert Clark_ (03-13-2022),*Bogertophis* (03-12-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Well, just remember that these have heat-sensing pits too.   :ROFL:   I'm glad he took note of your scent to make sure you're not edible.  Cute pic- I think you've picked a winner!   :Snake:

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_Albert Clark_ (07-23-2022),_Homebody_ (03-13-2022)

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## Caitlin

These little snakes are SO intelligent. I target train all of my snakes as a way of establishing trust, offering non-invasive interactions with me, and moderating the food response, among other reasons. But out of all of my snakes, it's the Antaresia and the Carpet Python (all of the Aussie pythons!) that have responded best and have become my best learners.

I had to chuckle over your game with Wiggles. Unlike any of my other snakes, both of my Children's pythons will always extend themselves forward when I open their enclosures and tongue-flick the tip of my nose. I don't know why they do it, but it's pretty cute.

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*Bogertophis* (03-13-2022),_Homebody_ (03-13-2022)

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## Homebody

> These little snakes are SO intelligent. I target train all of my snakes as a way of establishing trust, offering non-invasive interactions with me, and moderating the food response, among other reasons. But out of all of my snakes, it's the Antaresia and the Carpet Python (all of the Aussie pythons!) that have responded best and have become my best learners.


I'm not sure if I have the discipline to see it through, but I'm going to give target training a try.  When I fed him this week, I paired the feeding with a target (a paint stirrer with a circle drawn on then end).  His food response so far hasn't been a problem.  He hasn't struck at or bitten me yet.  I'm just sympathetic to the non-invasive approach.  For the same reason, I'm also giving choice-based handling a try.

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_Albert Clark_ (03-13-2022),*Bogertophis* (03-13-2022)

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## Homebody

> ...I'm also giving choice-based handling a try.


Well, for the past couple weeks, he's been choosing not to be handled.  I handled him today for the first time since I got him.  Not because he chose it, but because it was time for his monthly enclosure cleaning.  He was a perfect sweetheart.  He didn't seem stressed, but I kept it short anyway.

He's been eating well.  I'm feeding him hoppers weekly.  He weighed in today at 120 grams.  He was advertised as 80 grams in January, so his weight's climbing quickly.

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_Albert Clark_ (03-26-2022),*Bogertophis* (03-26-2022)

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## Albert Clark

Sounds like you are on top of all possibilities! What a amazing reptile.

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_Homebody_ (03-26-2022)

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## Homebody

Wiggles bit me and I'm trying to figure out if it was a defensive bite or a food bite?  I removed the glass to refresh his water bowl and he immediately came over to investigate.  He seemed a little too interested, so I backed off.  Tomorrow's feeding day.  I sat in front of his enclosure and he came over and sniffed my hand, as he usually does.  He recoiled, as he usually does, even though, this time, I wasn't wearing hand sanitizer.  We did this a few times and then I resumed replacing his water.  As I was returning the bowl, he struck and released.  He didn't wrap.  So, do you think he was defending his territory or did he think my hand might be food?

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## Bogertophis

> Wiggles bit me and I'm trying to figure out if it was a defensive bite or a food bite?  I removed the glass to refresh his water bowl and he immediately came over to investigate.  He seemed a little too interested, so I backed off.  Tomorrow's feeding day.  I sat in front of his enclosure and he came over and sniffed my hand, as he usually does.  He recoiled, as he usually does, even though, this time, I wasn't wearing hand sanitizer.  We did this a few times and then I resumed replacing his water.  As I was returning the bowl, he struck and released.  He didn't wrap.  So, do you think he was defending his territory or did he think my hand might be food?


Snakes don't exactly "defend their territory", though they might personally feel cornered & threatened*.  But no, that wasn't what yours was doing.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   He was hoping your warm & wiggling hand was his incoming dinner.  Fortunately he realized pretty fast that he didn't want the "special of the day".   :Very Happy:   Hey, don't forget these little guys have heat sensing pits, & they USE them.   :Snake:   When a snake looks a "little too interested", believe them.   :Wink:   And if you've been wearing hand sanitizer, but not this time, that might have been just enough for him to think "Hey, maybe this IS it?"  I trust you'll survive?

(*Might be some exceptions as far as "territory defense"- like maybe king cobras?  But I don't think most snakes have a sense of "territory".)

BAD Wiggles!   :Wag of the finger:   NO soup for you!

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AutumnVanilla (04-13-2022),_Caitlin_ (04-12-2022),_Homebody_ (04-13-2022)

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## jmcrook

Bite and release is an attempt to defend themselves against threats/predators. Bite and wrap is an attempt at subduing prey/feed response. What youve experienced is a snake defending itself.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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_Homebody_ (04-13-2022)

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## Homebody

> Snakes don't exactly "defend their territory", though they might personally feel cornered & threatened*.  But no, that wasn't what yours was doing.    He was hoping your warm & wiggling hand was his incoming dinner.  Fortunately he realized pretty fast that he didn't want the "special of the day".    Hey, don't forget these little guys have heat sensing pits, & they USE them.    When a snake looks a "little too interested", believe them.    And if you've been wearing hand sanitizer, but not this time, that might have been just enough for him to think "Hey, maybe this IS it?"  I trust you'll survive?
> 
> (*Might be some exceptions as far as "territory defense"- like maybe king cobras?  But I don't think most snakes have a sense of "territory".)
> 
> BAD Wiggles!    NO soup for you!


It's the bite and release that confuses me.  I've been taught that a bite and release is a defensive move.  Bite and wrap is a food bite.  His behavior prior to the bite wasn't defensive at all.  He was coming toward me.  Enough so, that I decided to back off and properly introduce myself.  It was only when I thought it was clear to him that I wasn't food that I decided to reenter his enclosure.  My mistake may have been leaving to fill the water bowl after I had introduced myself.  When I returned with the water bowl, maybe, he thought I was something new.  But if it was a food bite, why release?  Seems counterintuitive.

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## Homebody

> Bite and release is an attempt to defend themselves against threats/predators. Bite and wrap is an attempt at subduing prey/feed response. What youve experienced is a snake defending itself.


That's what I've been taught but, he didn't seem at all defensive prior to the bite.  He was coming toward me.  When he bit me, I wasn't moving toward him either, although I was, admittedly, reaching into his enclosure.

It got me to thinking though.  Has he ever struck and released his food?  I'm not sure.  I do remember some unsuccessful strikes.  Maybe they weren't unsuccessful.  I can't feel if he bit the mouse.  Maybe he uses an exploratory bite if he's not sure if something is prey.

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## Homebody

> I trust you'll survive?


I screamed like a little girl.  My son was standing right next to me.  Soooo embarrassing.  Just three pin pricks at the base of my index finger.  Shaving nicks hurt more.

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*Bogertophis* (04-13-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> It's the bite and release that confuses me.  I've been taught that a bite and release is a defensive move.  Bite and wrap is a food bite.  His behavior prior to the bite wasn't defensive at all.  He was coming toward me.  Enough so, that I decided to back off and properly introduce myself.  It was only when I thought it was clear to him that I wasn't food that I decided to reenter his enclosure.  My mistake may have been leaving to fill the water bowl after I had introduced myself.  When I returned with the water bowl, maybe, he thought I was something new.  But if it was a food bite, why release?  Seems counterintuitive.


"Bite & wrap" is an enthused food bite.  A snake coming toward your hand is investigating what, in their mind, "might be food" is what gets you a bite like this- you didn't taste or feel right, so he "threw you back"!  :Very Happy:   It's an honest mistake on his part- nothing more.  And you already knew he was hungry- due to be fed.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

"Bite & release" MAY be defensive, but not always.  And from your detailed description, I'm quite sure this wasn't either.  Your hand was "warm & wiggling"- that might be food!  Let's see?

If you'd rather PREVENT bites like this, & I highly recommend that you do  :Wink:  you need to give him more information, so he doesn't have to bite you to see if you're any good.  How you let him know you're not "room service" depends on what your snake is doing when you "invade his space"- in other words, you need to pay attention to him and think first about what you're doing that's going to  confuse him.

May I remind you that snakes have other senses besides sight, & that they do NOT identify things by sight- not by itself, anyway.  They use cues of scent & touch, & that's what I do too, so they know what's happening.  I don't want my snakes making mistakes, & neither do they.  It's up to us to communicate better with them- we rely on sight & hearing, but THEY don't.  Use their sense of touch & scent to help them understand what's going on.  That not only prevents needless bites, it also helps them feel less stressed.  They don't like "surprises" either.  

Maybe if you think of the average pet snake like it's your grandmother sitting in a chair- she might be dozing off, she can't hear well, & doesn't see well.  Are you going to approach her in a way that startles & scares her?  I hope not.  She won't bite you, but it won't be good for her heart.  You might touch her arm or shoulder lightly, to let her know you're there.  With a snake, you can also use their sense of smell- blow across your hand in their direction so they get your  scent.  Assuming you don't smell like rodents, anyway.   :ROFL:  Or use something else as a substitute for your hand/arm, something they can come & sniff.  

It's on you to pay attention to your individual snake as to whether they fully got your "message"- a very hungry snake might not have their minds changed easily.  You can also mist them- it won't hurt a thing (remember, it rains in the real world) but it usually "changes the channel" very effectively.

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_Homebody_ (04-13-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I screamed like a little girl.  My son was standing right next to me.  Soooo embarrassing.  Just three pin pricks at the base of my index finger.  Shaving nicks hurt more.


So much for setting a good example & not scaring your son... :ROFL:  Yeah, those tiny teeth DO hurt.  That's why it's better to "communicate" & pay attention to what your snake is thinking.

Another thing you can do- if you need to reach in to change the water or do a spot clean & see your snake "stalking you"- use your other hand with a large piece of cardboard to just block their way- they don't usually fight their way around it, they just take the hint.  If they're in their hide, block the doorway before they come out.  See?  You don't need to be a pin-cushion to keep snakes- nothing to prove here.   :Wink:

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_Homebody_ (04-13-2022)

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## Homebody

> So much for setting a good example & not scaring your son... Yeah, those tiny teeth DO hurt.  That's why it's better to "communicate" & pay attention to what your snake is thinking.
> 
> Another thing you can do- if you need to reach in to change the water or do a spot clean & see your snake "stalking you"- use your other hand with a large piece of cardboard to just block their way- they don't usually fight their way around it, they just take the hint.  If they're in their hide, block the doorway before they come out.  See?  You don't need to be a pin-cushion to keep snakes- nothing to prove here.


I just need to learn to read Wiggles better.  When he's obviously hungry, I'll need to take additional steps, like the ones you've suggested, to avoid taking bites.  Two years with a fully mature BP, didn't prepare me well for avoiding bites.

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*Bogertophis* (04-13-2022)

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## Homebody

I think the bite also indicates that Wiggles has settled in and he's more comfortable with his new environment.  His previous owner warned me that he sometimes mistakes fingers for food.  Until now though, I haven't seen that.  Generally, I haven't seen the food aggression for which Children's Pythons are famous.  So, I'll take the bite as a positive sign that Wiggles feels safe and secure enough to let his personality show.

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## Bogertophis

> I just need to learn to read Wiggles better.  When he's obviously hungry, I'll need to take additional steps, like the ones you've suggested, to avoid taking bites.  Two years with a fully mature BP, didn't prepare me well for avoiding bites.


BPs aren't the most "outgoing" snakes, that's for sure.  Aussie pythons, on the other hand... :Snake:   They may be little, but they don't seem to know that.  Sorta like Chihuahuas.   :Very Happy:

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_Homebody_ (04-13-2022)

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## Homebody

> So much for setting a good example & not scaring your son...


I did show him the bite after I'd washed it and explained that my cry was more from surprise than pain.

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## Homebody

> BPs aren't the most "outgoing" snakes, that's for sure.  Aussie pythons, on the other hand...  They may be little, but they don't seem to know that.  Sorta like Chihuahuas.


With my BP, I would warm the rat with a hair dryer and make it dance the mambo, and still rarely got a strike.  So, the strong food drive of the Children's Python is going to take a little getting used to.

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*Bogertophis* (04-13-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I did show him the bite after I'd washed it and explained that my cry was more from surprise than pain.


Good save... :Wink:    I hope this snake isn't one of the "stubborn ones" that keep trying to eat hands, as that won't be much fun. You might be taking some more bites- the previous owner probably just quit trying to handle him so the snake never learned to distinguish.




> ...His previous owner warned me that he sometimes mistakes fingers for food...

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_Homebody_ (04-13-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> With my BP, I would warm the rat with a hair dryer and make it dance the mambo, and still rarely got a strike.  So, the strong food drive of the Children's Python is going to take a little getting used to.


It really depends on the BP- they have their own personality, but I agree, most of them have far less food drive.  They're "introverts"- :Very Happy: 

I've never needed to warm the prey for my Spotted python- that should tell you something.  Aussie pythons- "extroverts"!   :Cool:

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_Homebody_ (04-13-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I think the bite also indicates that Wiggles has settled in and he's more comfortable with his new environment.  His previous owner warned me that he sometimes mistakes fingers for food.  Until now though, I haven't seen that.  Generally, I haven't seen the food aggression for which Children's Pythons are famous.  So, I'll take the bite as a positive sign that Wiggles feels safe and secure enough to let his personality show.


What it tells me is that he needs more "socialization".   :Wink:   He knows how to be a snake, but not how to be your pet.  He can do both, trust me.

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_Homebody_ (04-13-2022)

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## Homebody

> What it tells me is that he needs more "socialization".    He knows how to be a snake, but not how to be your pet.  He can do both, trust me.


That's good to hear because "socialization" is one of my favorite things to do.  I spend some time with him almost every night.  Usually, we play sniff and retreat.  Sometimes, we crawl around the living room.  I don't handle him much, but my kids do during his weekly enclosure cleanings.  I'm confident that, in time, we'll learn to avoid this type of misunderstanding.  If not, well, I've got gloves.

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*Bogertophis* (04-13-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> That's good to hear because "socialization" is one of my favorite things to do...


Mine too!   :Very Happy:

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_Homebody_ (04-13-2022)

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## Homebody

Last night was feeding time.  I took one look at Wiggles and I knew there was going to be trouble.  When I brought the warmed up mouse into the room, he was already surfing the glass.  I managed to open his enclosure without being bitten.  Picked up the mouse with my tongs, but before I could turn around, he launched himself out of his enclosure.  It's a good thing it sits on the floor or the fall might have hurt him.  I tried to lure him out from under the enclosure but failed.  He crawled behind the bookcase, his favorite spot.  I tried to lure him from there, but gave up and decided to wait him out.  I didn't want to feed him out of his enclosure anyway.  After a short while, he came prowling out, still looking for the mouse.  With gloved hands, I scooped him up and returned him to his enclosure where he ate readily from the tongs.

I don't know what it is.  Maybe, having settled in, he's becoming more bold.  Maybe, it's the warmer weather, but his food drive is definitely getting stronger.

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AutumnVanilla (04-14-2022),*Bogertophis* (04-14-2022),_EL-Ziggy_ (04-21-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> Last night was feeding time.  I took one look at Wiggles and I knew there was going to be trouble.  When I brought the warmed up mouse into the room, he was already surfing the glass.  I managed to open his enclosure without being bitten.  Picked up the mouse with my tongs, but before I could turn around, he launched himself out of his enclosure.  It's a good thing it sits on the floor or the fall might have hurt him.  I tried to lure him out from under the enclosure but failed.  He crawled behind the bookcase, his favorite spot.  I tried to lure him from there, but gave up and decided to wait him out.  I didn't want to feed him out of his enclosure anyway.  After a short while, he came prowling out, still looking for the mouse.  With gloved hands, I scooped him up and returned him to his enclosure where he ate readily from the tongs.
> 
> I don't know what it is.  Maybe, having settled in, he's becoming more bold.  Maybe, it's the warmer weather, but his food drive is definitely getting stronger.


When any snake is ready to "launch" for a meal, never open the enclosure unless in one hand, you have the prey held with tongs, ready to offer ("put it in his face") immediately.   :Wink:   And try not to let him grab the tongs... :Very Happy: 

Aren't you glad this isn't a LARGE python?   :ROFL:  (But he missed that memo...)   My Spotted python is a "quick feeder" too- these are bold snakes, not BPs.  
Your snake is normal & healthy- this is just "who he is"- expect this from now on.

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_Homebody_ (04-14-2022)

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## Homebody

> When any snake is ready to "launch" for a meal, never open the enclosure unless in one hand, you have the prey held with tongs, ready to offer ("put it in his face") immediately.    And try not to let him grab the tongs...


Good advice.



> Aren't you glad this isn't a LARGE python?   (But he missed that memo...)   My Spotted python is a "quick feeder" too- these are bold snakes, not BPs.  
> Your snake is normal & healthy- this is just "who he is"- expect this from now on.


It called to mind the stories I've heard of retics launching themselves out of their enclosures.  That's not for me.  I love my little monster but a big monster is too much monster for me.

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*Bogertophis* (04-14-2022)

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## Bogertophis

I'm with you...no "launching retics" for me either, though I've fed more than my share of large colubrids, a large BCI, & rattlesnakes, all of whose appetites & enthusiasm can be formidable too.   :Wink: 

You'll want to avoid a feeding bite from this Children's python at all costs- assuming he's like my Spotted python, he not only wraps firmly, he won't be talked out of whatever he catches.   :Cool:   These are surprisingly strong snakes for being so little.

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## Homebody

> I'm with you...no "launching retics" for me either, though I've fed more than my share of large colubrids, a large BCI, & rattlesnakes, all of whose appetites & enthusiasm can be formidable too.


I can see why people love the retic attitude.  I just prefer it in a more manageable-sized package.



> You'll want to avoid a feeding bite from this Children's python at all costs- assuming he's like my Spotted python, he not only wraps firmly, he won't be talked out of whatever he catches.    These are surprisingly strong snakes for being so little.


I'm learning.  Hopefully, I won't have to learn the hard way.

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*Bogertophis* (04-14-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I can see why people love the retic attitude.  I just prefer it in a more manageable-sized package.
> 
> I'm learning.  Hopefully, I won't have to learn the hard way.


You now have the perfect little snek to practice on.   :Snake:    (And you couldn't PAY me to take in a retic...)

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_Homebody_ (04-14-2022)

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## Homebody

Last week, he tries to eat me, then, launches himself out of his enclosure at the mere smell of a mouse.  This week, he refuses to eat. I guess I'll figure this guy out at some point, but I sure haven't yet.

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## Bogertophis

> Last week, he tries to eat me, then, launches himself out of his enclosure at the mere smell of a mouse.  This week, he refuses to eat. I guess I'll figure this guy out at some point, but I sure haven't yet.


When did he last shed?  That's the only time mine refuses, & even then it's not always.  Remember, they know a shed is coming before we can see the signs.  So I wouldn't worry.   :Snake:

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_Homebody_ (04-21-2022)

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## Homebody

> When did he last shed?  That's the only time mine refuses, & even then it's not always.  Remember, they know a shed is coming before we can see the signs.  So I wouldn't worry.


That was my first thought as well, so I checked.  His last shed was March 29th.  Seems too soon for another shed, but he's young.  Could be.  I'm not worried, not after one missed feeding, but I am interested.  I could see he wasn't hungry.  At least not ravenous like last week.  I briefly considered holding off, but he's a Children's python.  They never refuse.  Oh well, live and learn.

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## Bogertophis

> That was my first thought as well, so I checked.  His last shed was March 29th.  Seems too soon for another shed, but he's young.  Could be.  I'm not worried, not after one missed feeding, but I am interested.  I could see he wasn't hungry.  At least not ravenous like last week.  I briefly considered holding off, but he's a Children's python.  They never refuse.  Oh well, live and learn.


Still could be a shed coming, & maybe his most recent meal was on the "big" side for him?  Anyway, it's only been a week since he ate last, right?

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## Homebody

> Still could be a shed coming, & maybe his most recent meal was on the "big" side for him?  Anyway, it's only been a week since he ate last, right?


That's right.  He actually ate twice last week if you count the chomp he took out of me  :Laughing: . Come to think of it. He has been keeping kind of a low profile, like he did before his last shed.

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*Bogertophis* (04-21-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> That's right.  He actually ate twice last week if you count the chomp he took out of me . Come to think of it. He has been keeping kind of a low profile, like he did before his last shed.


Hahaha, "the chomp he took out of you"!  Young snakes can easily shed every 3 weeks- there's no set schedule anyway & I suspect he's doing just fine.   :Wink:  

Though he might need a rabies shot now, come to think of it?  :ROFL:

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_Homebody_ (04-21-2022)

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## Homebody

> Young snakes can easily shed every 3 weeks- there's no set schedule anyway & I suspect he's doing just fine.


Temps and humidity are on point.  I don't have any other reason to think there's a problem.  So, I'll expect a shed in the coming days.

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## Bogertophis

> Temps and humidity are on point.  I don't have any other reason to think there's a problem.  So, I'll expect a shed in the coming days.


It's obvious you just miss him "launching" at you-   :Snake2:   LOL.

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_Homebody_ (04-21-2022)

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## Homebody

> It's obvious you just miss him "launching" at you-    LOL.


True.  I was all set to face his flying fangs, so his indifference was disappointing.  I expect he'll make up for it at his next feeding.

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AutumnVanilla (04-22-2022),*Bogertophis* (04-21-2022)

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## Homebody

Look who remembered feeding day!

Fresh out of a shed and ready for action.

Went off with out a hitch.

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AutumnVanilla (04-28-2022),*Bogertophis* (04-27-2022)

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## Bogertophis

I think you're doing a great job with this guy!  Too bad the nickname "Fierce snake" is already taken by another species* though, eh?   :Very Happy:   (*Inland/Western Taipan)
It's obvious that he's really enjoying his home too.   :Good Job:

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_Homebody_ (04-27-2022)

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## Homebody

> I think you're doing a great job with this guy!  Too bad the nickname "Fierce snake" is already taken by another species* though, eh?    (*Inland/Western Taipan)
> It's obvious that he's really enjoying his home too.


Thanks.  It's only been 6 months since Fonzie passed, so I really appreciate the reassurance.

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## Homebody

Cleaning Day!  Yeh!


All my furnishings get a diluted chlorhexidine wipe down.  This includes:

4 hides
3 climbing branches
2 water bowls
1 repticarpet
1 bench
1 basking slate
1 shedding stone
1 fake foliage
1 glass cover
1 pvc shelf
1 tub
1 Golum.

To alleviate my concern with bacteria buildup in my repticarpet, I have two identical pieces that I alternate.  So, I'll wash this one with Dawn dishwashing soap, dry it, put it away, and replace it with the piece I cleaned last month.  All this takes me about an hour.  It's not fun, but you do what you gotta do.

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## Homebody

One thing I love about teeny tiny snakes is that they make teeny tiny turds.  So, spot cleaning after a Children's python is so easy, even compared to a ball python.

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*Bogertophis* (05-03-2022)

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## Homebody

Wiggles has successfully moved on to step two in his target training.

For those of you who don't know, in target training, you reward your snake for interacting with a target.  As you progress through the steps, the snake is required to perform more complex behaviors in order to get its reward (food).  In step one, you present the target and the reward at the same time.  Your goal is to have the snake associate, in its mind, the target with the reward.  In step two, you present the target by itself and reward the snake when it directs its attention to the target.  This is the step Wiggles successfully completed last night. 

I've been pairing food with a target since I got him, so, he spent 8 sessions in step one.  Last night was his first session in step two. My ultimate goal is to be able to direct Wiggles wherever I want him to go using the target.  For those interested in learning more, Lori Torrini has a great video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vkqbJWHwwk.

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AutumnVanilla (05-05-2022),*Bogertophis* (05-05-2022)

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## Homebody

I just had an hour long conversation with Wiggles.  You'll say I'm crazy, but I swear I can practically hear him talk.  The conversation went something like this:

Wiggles: Excuse me?
Me: Yes?
Wiggles: Are you food?
Me: No.  Sorry.  I'm not food.
Wiggles: Are you sure?
Me: Yes.  I'm certain.
Wiggles:  Mind if I smell you?
Me: Be my guest.
Wiggles: Oh God no!  You are not food.  Get away from me!
Me: Fine!
Wiggles: How about you?  Are you food?
Me:  No.  I'm the same guy that wasn't food before.
Wiggles:  Are you sure?
Me:  Yes. I'm certain.
Wiggles:  Mind if I smell you?

Over and over for an hour.  I never managed to convince him that I wasn't food.  I just gave up and closed up his enclosure.  My question is:  Is this a healthy interaction?  For my part, it was kind of fun even if it was also a little maddening.  I mean, I never had conversations with my ball python.  For his part, he was certainly engaged.  I would imagine interacting with a living creature is more stimulating for him than interacting with the inanimate objects in his enclosure.  On the other hand, the subject of the conversation doesn't seem healthy.  I mean, he spent the whole time trying to figure out if he could eat me.  What do you think?

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AutumnVanilla (05-06-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> ... My question is:  Is this a healthy interaction?........the subject of the conversation doesn't seem healthy.  I mean, he spent the whole time trying to figure out if he could eat me.  What do you think?


 :ROFL:  Some snakes are charter members of Densa, but most finally get it thru their heads that we're not edible- some king snakes are like that too- hard to convince, especially if they've not been well "socialized".  But you haven't had him that long to change him- and it's not as if the seller didn't warn you about this, though I don't recall if that was before or after you paid for him?  Hopefully it was before.  :Snake2:   When the seller says a snake "may mistake fingers for food", believe them!

From what I've read, Children's pythons are more likely to be "nippy" than the very similar Spotted Pythons, like the one I have- I've never had a problem with my Aussie.  And for what it's worth, I've never had such a problem with a rat snake, & I've known MANY- no matter how big their appetite & no matter how feisty their personality, they appear to know better- on the whole, rat snakes seem to be smarter snakes-IMO.  I think your snake's former owner just didn't spend much time with this snake, so he's late to learn his limits.

Now supposing there might be a medical reason for this endless hunger- has he had a stool check for worms?  A snake with worms might show excessive hunger- & it won't be their fault.  Just a thought.  

Apart from that- snakes are wild & instinctive creatures- they each do have their own personality, & some just make better (or "easier") pets than others.  Be glad- very glad- he's tiny!   :Very Happy: 

Anyway, didn't you just say how well his target training is going?   :Confused:   Sorta hard to tell if your question is real or in jest.   :Wink: 

And you gotta hand it to him- he's not "a quitter"!   :ROFL:

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AutumnVanilla (05-06-2022)

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## Homebody

> Some snakes are charter members of Densa, but most finally get it thru their heads that we're not edible- some king snakes are like that too- hard to convince, especially if they've not been well "socialized".  But you haven't had him that long to change him- and it's not as if the seller didn't warn you about this, though I don't recall if that was before or after you paid for him?  Hopefully it was before.   When the seller says a snake "may mistake fingers for food", believe them!
> 
> From what I've read, Children's pythons are more likely to be "nippy" than the very similar Spotted Pythons, like the one I have- I've never had a problem with my Aussie.  And for what it's worth, I've never had such a problem with a rat snake, & I've known MANY- no matter how big their appetite & no matter how feisty their personality, they appear to know better- on the whole, rat snakes seem to be smarter snakes-IMO.  I think your snake's former owner just didn't spend much time with this snake, so he's late to learn his limits.
> 
> Now supposing there might be a medical reason for this endless hunger- has he had a stool check for worms?  A snake with worms might show excessive hunger- & it won't be their fault.  Just a thought.  
> 
> Apart from that- snakes are wild & instinctive creatures- they each do have their own personality, & some just make better (or "easier") pets than others.  Be glad- very glad- he's tiny!  
> 
> Anyway, didn't you just say how well his target training is going?    Sorta hard to tell if your question is real or in jest.  
> ...


To the extent that I'm asking a question, rather than just relating a funny story, it's this: Is it unusual for a highly food motivated individual (seller warned me in advance), from a species in the upper tier of highly food motivated species, to be fixated on food 24 hours after its last meal?

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## Bogertophis

> To the extent that I'm asking a question, rather than just relating a funny story, it's this: Is it unusual for a highly food motivated individual (seller warned me in advance), from a species in the upper tier of highly food motivated species, to be fixated on food 24 hours after its last meal?


Yes.  Snakes may stay in "feed mode" for hours, or even a day or days after feeding.  It's a very individual thing- I've had snakes that I can feed & handle right after, but not all.    Yours obviously enjoys "feed mode" more than most.   :Wink:

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_Homebody_ (05-06-2022)

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## Homebody

> Anyway, didn't you just say how well his target training is going?


I did and I'm very excited that Wiggles is at step 2, but there are 7 steps.  So, I guess I have a ways to go before Wiggles learns that no target means no food.

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## Bogertophis

> I did and I'm very excited that Wiggles is at step 2, but there are 7 steps.  So, I guess I have a ways to go before Wiggles learns that no target means no food.


Maybe he misunderstood his lesson?- "you're the target!"   :Very Happy:    (hang in there)

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_Homebody_ (05-06-2022)

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## Homebody

Last night I had a bit of a set back in my choice-based handling program with Wiggles.  For those that don't know, choice-based handling seeks to reduce the stress inherent in handling by only handing the animal when it chooses to be handled.  Unfortunately, sometimes you just have to handle the animal whether it wants it or not, like last night.

After dinner, I noticed that Wiggles was surfing the glass, so I decided to let him out to roam around a bit.  There is only one FREAKIN' place in my whole living room Wiggles is not allowed to go.  It's in the narrow space between his tub and the side of the enclosure.

So, of course, that's where he went.  3 times.  The last time he reminded me why he's not allowed to go there.

Now, I can see why he wants to go there.  I don't blame him.  It's a cave, a tight dark place.  The problem is that I can't get him out of there.  The first couple times I caught him before he got too far.  But that damned reptile patience got the better of me.  He just sat there, still, for like an hour.  I get distracted and the next thing I see is his tail disappearing into the crevice.

I decide to wait until he _chooses_ to come out. Two and half hours later, it's midnight, my patience is worn out and I'm falling asleep.  I can't leave him there all night.  Who knows where he'll end up?  So, I decide a more forceful approach is called for.  Fortunately, I can see him, so when I remove the tub I can see that he's not getting pinched against the side.  Unfortunately, he can see me too and he buries himself in my carefully secured electric cables.  I try to pull him out, but he's wound himself in there.  So, I fix myself a cup off coffee and go back to waiting him out.  I changed his substrate and secured the heat tape that had come loose.  While I was working, I noticed that he was no longer so tightly wound among the cables and managed to pull him free.

In any training program, there will be set-backs, but I really need to figure out a way to avoid this one.  I like giving him the freedom to move about on his own.  Watching him do so is my favorite thing to do, but I've got to figure out a way to keep him from going back in that gap.

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AutumnVanilla (05-16-2022),*Bogertophis* (05-14-2022),_EL-Ziggy_ (05-22-2022),Erie_herps (05-14-2022)

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## Homebody

I'm considering taking Wiggles outside tomorrow, but I'm concerned about the reception he'll receive from my neighbors.  The weather should be beautiful, sunny, 85 degrees, but I live in a city and the only outdoor space I have is a public park.  I imagine I'll encounter both people that are terrified of snakes and those that can't keep their hand off them.  Frankly, I doubt the UV and pretty pics are worth the drama, but maybe my imagination is running away with me.

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## Bogertophis

> I'm considering taking Wiggles outside tomorrow, but I'm concerned about the reception he'll receive from my neighbors.  The weather should be beautiful, sunny, 85 degrees, but I live in a city and the only outdoor space I have is a public park.  I imagine I'll encounter both people that are terrified of snakes and those that can't keep their hand off them.  Frankly, I doubt the UV and pretty pics are worth the drama, but maybe my imagination is running away with me.


It's generally a bad idea to show up with a snake where you know people won't expect to see one & where some may be terrified of them- you also might run into rules or legal issues being in a public park.  (I've heard of someone being harassed for being in violation of the "leash law", despite the fact that no snake can keep a collar & leash ON.)  While it's lots of fun to share a snake with most people, I'd suggest finding a quiet out of the way area so as not to cause a scene.  And it won't end well if Wiggles decides to nip someone- are you sure this won't be an issue?  Nothing like a bite to make snakes even more hated & feared.

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## Homebody

> It's generally a bad idea to show up with a snake where you know people won't expect to see one & where some may be terrified of them- you also might run into rules or legal issues being in a public park.  (I've heard of someone being harassed for being in violation of the "leash law", despite the fact that no snake can keep a collar & leash ON.)  While it's lots of fun to share a snake with most people, I'd suggest finding a quiet out of the way area so as not to cause a scene.  And it won't end well if Wiggles decides to nip someone- are you sure this won't be an issue?  Nothing like a bite to make snakes even more hated & feared.


UV and pretty pics would be my goal, not making friends.  I wouldn't let anyone hold him.  I'd prefer it if they didn't see him, but I don't think I can avoid that.  It's a public park on a sunny day.  There will be lots of people.

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## Bogertophis

> UV and pretty pics would be my goal, not making friends.  I wouldn't let anyone hold him.  I'd prefer it if they didn't see him, but I don't think I can avoid that.  It's a public park on a sunny day.  There will be lots of people.


Well, good luck- I hope it goes well.

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_Homebody_ (05-20-2022)

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## Homebody

> Well, good luck- I hope it goes well.


I've decided against it.  I'm working on building trust in our relationship and I don't think this would be an activity that Wiggles would enjoy.  Maybe later when our relationship is on firmer ground and he's exploring outside his enclosure more confidently.

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*Bogertophis* (05-22-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I've decided against it.  I'm working on building trust in our relationship and I don't think this would be an activity that Wiggles would enjoy.  Maybe later when our relationship is on firmer ground and he's exploring outside his enclosure more confidently.


Probably just as well- it could go either way.  He might enjoy it, or he might be freaked out- he might feel inspired to run away, or he might look to you as his "safe harbor".  I take my snakes outside in my yard now & then with proper temperatures, & they seem to enjoy all the scents in the fresh air.  But your snake is still pretty new to you.

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_Homebody_ (05-22-2022)

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## Homebody

I made an adjustment to Wiggles's basking temps and it resulted in a dramatic change in his behavior.  I started off keeping his basking temps between 85 and 90 degrees, the same as I did for my ball python.  But I noticed that Wiggles wasn't behaving the way I had been told a Children's Python would behave.  He was docile and easy to handle.  I had been told he was bitey.  He was feeding regularly, but he wasn't food aggressive. Lastly, he wasn't very active.  He didn't climb.  If he was out of his hide, it was only to bask. He spent most of his time in his warm side hide and he never used his cool side hide.  Frankly, he acted a lot like my ball python and I was a little disappointed.

At first I reasoned that he was settling in.  He would come out of his shell once he adjusted.  But he didn't.  Since he was spending so much time on the warm side, I decided to go back and review my temps.  I have an Excel sheet of basic care parameters part of which I've copied below.  After reviewing them, I decided to try bumping my basking temps up to between 90 and 95 degrees.

Source
Basking high
Basking low

https://www.reptiledirect.com/childrens-python/
90
85

https://reptilesmagazine.com/antaresia-pythons/
99
99

https://www.reptilerange.com/childre...on-care-sheet/
90
90

https://www.azreptiles.com/childrens-python/
90
88

https://dubiaroaches.com/blogs/snake...hon-care-sheet
100
90

https://www.amazingamazon.com.au/pag...nd-information
91
87

https://reptilehow.com/childrens-python-care-sheet/
90
85

https://www.unusualpetvets.com.au/wp...Care-Sheet.pdf
100
91



The result was dramatic.  He stopped spending so much time in his warm side hide.  He began to climb and explore his enclosure.  He became much more food aggressive, and so, a little trickier to handle.  He would surf the glass begging to be fed or maybe let out (I'm not always sure what he wants when he does that).  In short, be became the snake I had hoped he would be.

Later on, I saw a Lori Torrini video where she describes an similar change in her Children's Python when she raised his temps.  Now, I'm not saying I disagree with the lower temps suggested in some of the care guides above.  I'm just saying that warmer temps seem to be working better for Wiggles and me.

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*Bogertophis* (06-03-2022)

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## Homebody

I'm pleased to report that Wiggles has been making use of his entire enclosure.  Since the enclosure is divided between an upper terrarium and a lower tub, I was curious to see which he would favor.  The enclosure was originally designed for a ball python.  Ball pythons being shy creatures I thought my BP would appreciate the security the opaque tub provides.  But I also knew my BP liked to escape from his previous tub, so I have him the terrarium as a safe place for him to escape to.  It worked wonderfully for my BP, but I wasn't sure it would work as well for Wiggles, my Children's python.

As a semi-arboreal species, I expected Wiggles to favor the terrarium.  Children's pythons are also not a shy species, so I was concerned that the tub would be a waste of space.  But after 3 months, I can say he's using both.  I often see him in his terrarium hiding, basking, and exploring.  I can't see him in the tub, but sometimes when I spot clean, I'll see him in there.  I also find his feces and urates in there.  It's tough to say where he spends more time since I can only see him in the terrarium, but I think where he spends his time may change with the seasons.

In the Spring, I think he favored the terrarium.  His basking spot is there, so it's warmer there.  As Summer approaches, I've noticed him spending more time in the tub.  I think he's seeking the cooler temperatures there.  I expect as the weather warms, he'll spend more time there.  In the Fall, I expect he'll start favoring the terrarium again, but we'll see.

Anyway, I'm happy to see him making use of the entire enclosure.  I was concerned that an enclosure designed for a Ball python wouldn't be ideal for a Children's python, but so far, it appears to be working even better than I'd hoped.

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*Bogertophis* (06-09-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Great observations ^ ^ ^ and I think it really shows how much snakes appreciate & NEED choices to be at their best.   :Good Job:

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_Homebody_ (06-09-2022)

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## Homebody

The kid's legal now!

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*Bogertophis* (06-14-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> The kid's legal now!


Just curious, was there a fee required for that?

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_Homebody_ (06-15-2022)

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## Homebody

> Just curious, was there a fee required for that?


Yep.  $10.

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## Bogertophis

> Yep.  $10.


Oh good, that's not bad at all.  Just pays for their office help keeping track of things.  (it could be a lot worse)

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_Homebody_ (06-15-2022)

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## Homebody

> Oh good, that's not bad at all.  Just pays for their office help keeping track of things.  (it could be a lot worse)


I was surprised at how cheap it was.

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## Homebody

Wiggles bit me again.  I grabbed him from behind to keep him from entering the forbidden gap (see post #59), and he swung around and bit me on the base of my right middle finger.  Unlike the last time he bit me (#14), he wrapped and held on.  I would describe the feeling as mildly irritating, certainly nothing to fear, kind of like a mild jellyfish sting.  I dont know why he wrapped.  It was clearly a defensive bite.  He just doesnt seem to have his striking technique down.  When hes hungry, he bites and releases.  When hes defensive, he bites and wraps.  Its a good thing he has me to look after him.  I dont think hed fare very well in the wild.

Anyway, as a result Ive modified my approach to Wiggles recreational time.  I no longer allow him to come out of his enclosure on his own.  Now, I open his enclosure.  If he comes to the threshold looking for a way out, I gently pick him up and put him in his favorite hide on top of his enclosure.  If hes at all stressed by my picking him up, my thought is that hell recover quickly there.  He usually spends a few minutes there before coming out to explore.  After an hour, I gently scoop him up and put him back.  Allowing him the freedom to come out of his enclosure on his own was supposed to reduce his stress, but too often, it led to distressing situations. So, I took away that little bit of freedom.  I think hes better off for it.

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*Bogertophis* (06-22-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Was he fed live previously?  He does seem to have it backwards-   :Very Happy:   But maybe he's less-than-thrilled with f/t prey so when it doesn't struggle (or maybe isn't warm enough?), he lets go.

That "should have been" a defensive bite (to your hand) but it sounds to me like he's hungry & when he caught something warm & wiggling, he decided to go for it.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   Silly snek!

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_Homebody_ (06-22-2022)

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## Homebody

> Was he fed live previously?  He does seem to have it backwards-    But maybe he's less-than-thrilled with f/t prey so when it doesn't struggle (or maybe isn't warm enough?), he lets go.
> 
> That "should have been" a defensive bite (to your hand) but it sounds to me like he's hungry & when he caught something warm & wiggling, he decided to go for it.    Silly snek!


He bites and wraps mice just fine.  It's my hands that confuse him.  The first time he bit me, he clearly thought I was food, but he bit and released.  This time, the second time, he was clearly trying to defend himself and yet he bit and wrapped.  Maybe with more practice he'll learn to bite my hands properly.  Hopefully, not.

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*Bogertophis* (06-22-2022)

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## dakski

Homebody, 

Have you thought about hook/tap training Wiggles?

I do it with all my aggressive feeders.

If you want info on how to do it successfully, I can pass it on. 

I think it would help. 

From what I've know and experienced, Antaresia can go for hands anyway, but hook training could greatly reduce the tendency and certainly in tank.

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_Homebody_ (06-23-2022)

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## Homebody

> Homebody, 
> 
> Have you thought about hook/tap training Wiggles?
> 
> I do it with all my aggressive feeders.
> 
> If you want info on how to do it successfully, I can pass it on. 
> 
> I think it would help. 
> ...


Great idea!  I found your thread and video:  https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ead-with-Video 
Anything to add?

I target train Wiggles once a week, but this will give me something for me to do with him the other six days.  Thanks.

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_dakski_ (06-23-2022)

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## dakski

> Great idea!  I found your thread and video: http://Hook Training Instruction Thread with Video.  Anything to add?
> 
> I target train Wiggles once a week, but this will give me something for me to do with him the other six days.  Thanks.


Be consistent. Look at body language. Sometimes I have to rub/tap a snake for 2 seconds, sometimes, 30 seconds, to get them to "snap" out of food drive and/or understand that I am coming to pick them up. 

Once they relax their body, I am comfortable picking up any of my snakes, even if they've been striking a moment before.

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_Homebody_ (06-23-2022)

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## Homebody

Wiggles weighed in today at a bruising 164 grams.  That's 44 grams more than her last weigh-in on March 26th and 83 grams more than in January.  I'll probably start adding a pinkie to the hopper he takes weekly.  Another feeder will give me an additional opportunity to target train.

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*Bogertophis* (06-26-2022),_dakski_ (06-25-2022)

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## Homebody

Semi-Arboreal My Butt!

Beat that, Asian vine snake!

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*Bogertophis* (06-26-2022)

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## Bogertophis

:ROFL:   These are such talented snakes-  definitely not boring!   :Very Happy:

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_Homebody_ (06-26-2022)

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## Homebody

Yesterday’s target training was a bit of a muddle.  I got a pinkie to go with the hopper that I usually feed, so I had two opportunities.  The pinkie went normally.  He didn’t have a particularly strong reaction to the target, but it was good enough.  For the hopper, I decided to set up a little foraging exercise for him, but I didn’t what to break with the target training, so I put the mouse in front of the target.  Well, that didn’t work.

First, he is not used to taking two prey items.  After the pinkie, he went into his hide to digest.  He came out halfway a few times, flicking and yawning.  I think he sensed the hopper, but he wasn’t interested enough to go hunting for it.  After a while, I moved his hide closer to it.  He came out of the hide completely but couldn’t find it.  So, I gave up on foraging and decided to have another target training.  That didn’t work either.

He saw the hopper as soon as I picked it up, so he ignored the target and went straight for it.  I put the target directly between him and the hopper, but I don’t think he noticed it.  I fed him the hopper anyway.

It was a muddle because I started target training, switched to foraging, and back to target training all with a snake that not adept at either.  No wonder he was confused.  You live, you learn.  Even experienced trainers have bad sessions.  At least he ate.

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*Bogertophis* (06-30-2022)

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## Bogertophis

I usually feed the larger item first, IF feeding more than one thing.  Better digestion that way- the larger one will be slower so the "afterthought" item can catch up & not cause a re-gurge.

It does sound like a perfect "muddle"-  :Cool:   But plenty of chances to practice- Rome wasn't built in a day either.

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_Homebody_ (06-30-2022)

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## Homebody

> I usually feed the larger item first, IF feeding more than one thing.  Better digestion that way- the larger one will be slower so the "afterthought" item can catch up & not cause a re-gurge.
> 
> It does sound like a perfect "muddle"-   But plenty of chances to practice- Rome wasn't built in a day either.


Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I fed the smaller first because I thought he would be more likely to eat the larger second.  It didn't know regurgitation was a possibility.  I'll switch up the order.

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## Bogertophis

> Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I fed the smaller first because I thought he would be more likely to eat the larger second.  It didn't know regurgitation was a possibility.  I'll switch up the order.


A re-gurge is unlikely when both are taken pretty close together, but the trouble is, you never know how long before the second prey item goes down, & pinkies digest really fast.  Also, if they don't take the second item, at least you didn't waste the better meal item.

Snakes may regurgitate when they've just digested something & haven't yet replenished their digestive fluids- & there isn't enough to digest the second item.  You never want to add an item to their meal if it's been longer than 30-60 minutes (roughly), just to be on the safe side.

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_Homebody_ (06-30-2022)

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## Homebody

> A re-gurge is unlikely when both are taken pretty close together, but the trouble is, you never know how long before the second prey item goes down, & pinkies digest really fast.  Also, if they don't take the second item, at least you didn't waste the better meal item.
> 
> Snakes may regurgitate when they've just digested something & haven't yet replenished their digestive fluids- & there isn't enough to digest the second item.  You never want to add an item to their meal if it's been longer than 30-60 minutes (roughly), just to be on the safe side.


I guess I should have researched feeding multiple items before I did it.  I'll do so, now, before I do it again.

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## Homebody

Good news!  Wiggles has progressed to stage three of his target training.  Tonight, he locked on the target and started moving toward it.  He did so well I thought he might just skip over stage three and go to stage four, but I didn't want to be greedy, so I rewarded him after he moved toward the target.

Now, the bad news.  The second session didn't go so well.  After he ate the hopper in the first training, he ducked into his warm hide.  I wasn't sure I would be willing to do another session.  Eating two items is new for him and I wasn't sure he'd have any interest in a second one.  Well, I was wrong.  

He came right back out of his hide, so I decided to do another training session with a pinkie.  He didn't show a strong interest in the target.  I suppose his interest is directly proportional to his hunger.  So, I just dangled the pinkie in front of the target.  He sniffed the pinkie, but turned and launched at my hand.  Just a quick tag.  

My theory is that the pinkie had cooled between sessions.  He smelled mouse but struck at the warmest thing, my hand.  You live, you learn (I've been sayin' that a lot lately).  Next time, I'll rewarm the pinkie and wear my gloves.

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*Bogertophis* (07-07-2022),_dakski_ (07-07-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Yup, bigger warm "prey"-  :Surprised:   Oops, sorry human!   (Longer tongs are in order- your hand should not be that close to the mouse-12" tongs should suffice.)

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## Homebody

> Yup, bigger warm "prey"-   Oops, sorry human!   (Longer tongs are in order- your hand should not be that close to the mouse-12" tongs should suffice.)


My tongs are 12".  He didn't strike at the prey, miss, and hit me.  He turned from the prey and launched directly at me.  My tongs could have been 25" and he still would have gotten me.  Gloves should protect me though.  Mine are thick, waterproof gloves you see fisherman use.  They'll not only protect my hands from a bite, but also mask the heat from my hands, so he won't try.  That's what I hope at least.

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## Bogertophis

> My tongs are 12".  He didn't strike at the prey, miss, and hit me.  He turned from the prey and launched directly at me.  My tongs could have been 25" and he still would have gotten me.  Gloves should protect me though.  Mine are thick, waterproof gloves you see fisherman use.  They'll not only protect my hands from a bite, but also mask the heat from my hands, so he won't try.  That's what I hope at least.


Oh, okay- in that case, put your gloves in the freezer for a while first.   :ROFL:  You know, they make super-long & well-padded fireplace gloves too... :Wink:  (I used to have some, but no longer need them.)

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_Homebody_ (07-07-2022)

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## plateOfFlan

> Yesterday’s target training was a bit of a muddle.  I got a pinkie to go with the hopper that I usually feed, so I had two opportunities.  The pinkie went normally.  He didn’t have a particularly strong reaction to the target, but it was good enough.  For the hopper, I decided to set up a little foraging exercise for him, but I didn’t what to break with the target training, so I put the mouse in front of the target.  Well, that didn’t work.
> 
> First, he is not used to taking two prey items.  After the pinkie, he went into his hide to digest.  He came out halfway a few times, flicking and yawning.  I think he sensed the hopper, but he wasn’t interested enough to go hunting for it.  After a while, I moved his hide closer to it.  He came out of the hide completely but couldn’t find it.  So, I gave up on foraging and decided to have another target training.  That didn’t work either.
> 
> He saw the hopper as soon as I picked it up, so he ignored the target and went straight for it.  I put the target directly between him and the hopper, but I don’t think he noticed it.  I fed him the hopper anyway.
> 
> It was a muddle because I started target training, switched to foraging, and back to target training all with a snake that not adept at either.  No wonder he was confused.  You live, you learn.  Even experienced trainers have bad sessions.  At least he ate.


I've noticed going into the hide and coming back out seems to "reset" their behavior with my ball pythons and they'll often go back into food mode. I wonder if snakes have poor object permanence? It seems like that going in and coming out makes them forget what was going on before. In any case I always make sure to keep my hands and everything well clear when they come back out because sometimes they'll act kind of weird, like they're surprised to find me outside even though they just saw me. Losing sight of me during handling also often makes them come back to sniff me even if they just did a moment ago, like they need to make sure I'm still the same person.  This isn't very helpful I guess, I just think it's an interesting behavior thing. Maybe entering the hide kind of broke the sequence you were training?

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*Bogertophis* (07-07-2022),_Homebody_ (07-08-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I've noticed going into the hide and coming back out seems to "reset" their behavior with my ball pythons and they'll often go back into food mode. I wonder if snakes have poor object permanence? It seems like that going in and coming out makes them forget what was going on before. In any case I always make sure to keep my hands and everything well clear when they come back out because sometimes they'll act kind of weird, like they're surprised to find me outside even though they just saw me. Losing sight of me during handling also often makes them come back to sniff me even if they just did a moment ago, like they need to make sure I'm still the same person.  This isn't very helpful I guess, I just think it's an interesting behavior thing. Maybe entering the hide kind of broke the sequence you were training?


I agree- I think they actually do need to reconnect with our scent or touch- because snakes (at least most of them) don't appear to recognize us visually.  Both scent & touch can really help- once you set a snake down, they're easily startled without us showing "I.D." again.  They're quite different from most other animals-they take some getting used to.

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_Homebody_ (07-08-2022)

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## plateOfFlan

> I agree- I think they actually do need to reconnect with our scent or touch- because snakes (at least most of them) don't appear to recognize us visually.  Both scent & touch can really help- once you set a snake down, they're easily startled without us showing "I.D." again.  They're quite different from most other animals-they take some getting used to.


They're definitely different, my hat's off to Homebody for going so deep on training. Even getting them used to handling is frustrating because it seems like you're often back at square one with a confused and frightened snake staring at you like they've never met you before in their life and have no idea what you intend to do with them.

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*Bogertophis* (07-08-2022),_Homebody_ (07-08-2022)

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## Homebody

> I've noticed going into the hide and coming back out seems to "reset" their behavior with my ball pythons and they'll often go back into food mode. I wonder if snakes have poor object permanence? It seems like that going in and coming out makes them forget what was going on before. In any case I always make sure to keep my hands and everything well clear when they come back out because sometimes they'll act kind of weird, like they're surprised to find me outside even though they just saw me. Losing sight of me during handling also often makes them come back to sniff me even if they just did a moment ago, like they need to make sure I'm still the same person.  This isn't very helpful I guess, I just think it's an interesting behavior thing. Maybe entering the hide kind of broke the sequence you were training?


I don't think going into the hide caused the bite.  I think a cool prey item and a warm hand confused him.  I think it's pretty funny, actually.  I'm dangling the pinkie right in front of his face.  My mammalian mind is thinking, "It's right there!  How can you not see that?!"  But he's not a mammal, so he uses his heat pits to see.  That's why he's confused.  To his reptilian mind the prey looks like nothing.  My hand on the other hand, that has potential.  I just need to learn to see things from his perspective and that's going to take a while.

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*Bogertophis* (07-08-2022)

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## Homebody

> I wonder if snakes have poor object permanence? It seems like that going in and coming out makes them forget what was going on before. In any case I always make sure to keep my hands and everything well clear when they come back out because sometimes they'll act kind of weird, like they're surprised to find me outside even though they just saw me. Losing sight of me during handling also often makes them come back to sniff me even if they just did a moment ago, like they need to make sure I'm still the same person.  This isn't very helpful I guess, I just think it's an interesting behavior thing.


I agree.  The first time Wiggles bit me I was changing his water.  I carefully introduced myself, grabbed his water bowl, and went to fill it.  He bit me when I put the water bowl back.  In the thirty seconds it took me to fill the water bowl, he forgot who I was.

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*Bogertophis* (07-08-2022)

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## Homebody

> Oh, okay- in that case, put your gloves in the freezer for a while first.   You know, they make super-long & well-padded fireplace gloves too... (I used to have some, but no longer need them.)


I think it's funny that you're suggesting I use "super-long & well padded fireplace gloves" with a snake that has a head smaller than the tip of my pinkie.  It just goes to show how ferocious Antaresia can be, but a least he's not a retic.  With apologies to all the retic lovers out there, but every time Wiggles bites me I think, "Thank God he's not a retic."

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*Bogertophis* (07-08-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I think it's funny that you're suggesting I use "super-long & well padded fireplace gloves" with a snake that has a head smaller than the tip of my pinkie.  It just goes to show how ferocious Antaresia can be, but a least he's not a retic.  With apologies to all the retic lovers out there, but every time Wiggles bites me I think, "Thank God he's not a retic."


Well, it wasn't a real serious suggestion anyway...I was laughing.   :Wink:   But frozen gloves might feel good, especially in the summertime?   :Very Happy:

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_Homebody_ (07-08-2022)

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## Homebody

> Well, it wasn't a real serious suggestion anyway...I was laughing.    But frozen gloves might feel good, especially in the summertime?


I'm not sure it's a bad idea.  My gloves stop at the wrist.  What's to stop him from biting my forearm?  Anyway, I'll give the fisherman's gloves and warmer prey a go.  Welder's gloves or chainmail if that doesn't work.

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## Bogertophis

> I'm not sure it's a bad idea.  My gloves stop at the wrist.  What's to stop him from biting my forearm?  Anyway, I'll give the fisherman's gloves and warmer prey a go.  Welder's gloves or chainmail if that doesn't work.


Yeah, that's how you know their dinner isn't warm enough-  :Very Happy: 

You mentioned chainmail- somewhere there's a photo of that on this forum -someone posted.  Most of the good ideas are already out there.   :Cool:

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_Homebody_ (07-08-2022)

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## Homebody

After a big meal, Wiggles just likes to Netflix and chill.  I open up Wiggles's enclosure for about an hour daily.  Usually, he'll leave the enclosure to explore my living room.  He stopped going into the forbidden gap (post #59) and now he climbs out the top of his enclosure.  He climbs along the window sill taking in the sights and smells through the window, climbs down my son's telescope, up the end table and onto the couch.  At that point, i have to collect him, because he's no longer allowed on the couch.  My wife thinks she found a turd there.  I'll handle him for a few minutes before he climbs off me and onto my rocking chair.  When the hour's up, I gather him up and return him to his enclosure.  The day or two after a meal, though, he's often content to just rest his head on the threshold of his enclosure and take in the fresh air.

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*Bogertophis* (07-18-2022),_Caitlin_ (07-10-2022),_dakski_ (07-09-2022)

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## Homebody

I hate it when Wiggles is in shed.  While he's normally very active and engaging, sometime too much so, when he's shedding he disappears and doesn't reappear 'til he'd done.  This time he checked out for a whole week.  I still opened his enclosure nightly, but he wouldn't come out.  Every couple days, I'd give him a poke just to make sure he was still alive.  

My daughter's boyfriend came over for dinner for the first time yesterday.  He really wanted to meet Wiggles, but Wiggles would have none of it.  Of course, today he shed.  I'm just glad to have my friend back.

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*Bogertophis* (07-18-2022),_EL-Ziggy_ (07-19-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> ...I hate it when Wiggles is in shed.....when he's shedding he disappears and doesn't reappear 'til he'd done....


The "solution" is getting more snakes-   :Very Happy:

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_EL-Ziggy_ (07-19-2022),_Homebody_ (07-18-2022)

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## Homebody

> The "solution" is getting more snakes-


If I got another snake, he'd have to be a real potato.  When Wiggles isn't in shed, he wears me out.

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## Bogertophis

> If I got another snake, he'd have to be a real potato.  When Wiggles isn't in shed, he wears me out.


THAT little snake???   :ROFL:

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_Homebody_ (07-18-2022)

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## Homebody

> THAT little snake???


Oh, yeah.  He always begging to come out.  He spends an hour out every day.  On weekends, sometimes a couple times a day.  He spent an hour out earlier.  What's he doing now?  Begging to come out.

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*Bogertophis* (07-18-2022)

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## EL-Ziggy

> I hate it when Wiggles is in shed.  While he's normally very active and engaging, sometime too much so, when he's shedding he disappears and doesn't reappear 'til he'd done.  This time he checked out for a whole week.  I still opened his enclosure nightly, but he wouldn't come out.  Every couple days, I'd give him a poke just to make sure he was still alive.  
> 
> My daughter's boyfriend came over for dinner for the first time yesterday.  He really wanted to meet Wiggles, but Wiggles would have none of it.  Of course, today he shed.  I'm just glad to have my friend back.


I can relate. I also miss seeing/handling my snakes when they're in shed, which typically lasts 10-14 days from start to finish. Luckily,  I have a few other critters to compensate for their absence. I didn't know Children's pythons were so active. Most of my snakes are pretty sedentary. They're usually only active at night and when they're hungry.

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_Homebody_ (07-19-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> Oh, yeah.  He always begging to come out.  He spends an hour out every day.  On weekends, sometimes a couple times a day.  He spent an hour out earlier.  What's he doing now?  Begging to come out.


He knows a pushover when he sees one.   :Very Happy:

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_Homebody_ (07-19-2022)

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## Homebody

> I didn't know Children's pythons were so active. Most of my snakes are pretty sedentary. They're usually only active at night and when they're hungry.


Same here.  Just in Wiggles's case "at night" and "when...hungry" covers 20 out of every 24 hours.  He's not always surfing the glass, but if I open the enclosure, he'll take the opportunity to come out and explore.

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## Homebody

> He knows a pushover when he sees one.


Right you are!  You know I let him out for another hour.  How can you say no when they want to do something that's good for them?

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## Caitlin

My Antaresia are the same - they're active and curious, which I love. One thing you might try for your little guy is one of those pet 'playpens'. Not the metal kind, but the cloth + cloth screen type. Just search 'pet playpen' on Amazon. I have a large and a medium sized one that I use for my snakes when they want out to explore but I am needing to do other stuff and can't supervise them directly. The playpens have a screen top that can be zipped shut - I toss hides, branches, cardboard boxes, plushy stuff or towels (they love soft materials), fake plants, and other enrichment items in there. The playpen can easily be folded up and stashed away when not in use.

Those things have really been a help for me, as I have a few snakes that love to come out, and I always felt terrible if I was busy and couldn't let them out.

Photo below of Frida, one of my Tarahumara Mountain Boas. She LOVES to come out and when I open her enclosure, will actually take herself to the playpen, as in this photo.[IMG][/IMG]

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*Bogertophis* (07-20-2022),_dakski_ (07-20-2022),_Homebody_ (07-20-2022)

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## Homebody

> One thing you might try for your little guy is one of those pet 'playpens'. Not the metal kind, but the cloth + cloth screen type. Just search 'pet playpen' on Amazon. I have a large and a medium sized one that I use for my snakes when they want out to explore but I am needing to do other stuff and can't supervise them directly. The playpens have a screen top that can be zipped shut - I toss hides, branches, cardboard boxes, plushy stuff or towels (they love soft materials), fake plants, and other enrichment items in there. The playpen can easily be folded up and stashed away when not in use.[/IMG]


Wiggles has a hatchday coming up, so I'll definitely keep that in mind.  I also have another idea, a freestanding coat rack:

I could hang platforms at different heights from the hooks.  I could even hang the playpen you suggested.

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*Bogertophis* (07-20-2022)

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## Caitlin

Great idea! Though the pet playpens I use are too big to hang. For climbing, I do something similar for my Ants - I put together an 'Itty Bitty Python Jungle Gym' using a clothes drying rack. The little guys love it: [IMG][/IMG]

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blisterbeetle (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (07-20-2022),_EL-Ziggy_ (07-20-2022),_Homebody_ (07-20-2022)

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## Homebody

> Great idea! Though the pet playpens I use are too big to hang. For climbing, I do something similar for my Ants - I put together an 'Itty Bitty Python Jungle Gym' using a clothes drying rack. The little guys love it


I use those collapsible laundry baskets, so that's what I was picturing.  You probably use one of those puppy playpens.  That would be too large to hang.

What I like about the coat rack is that I can use the height to keep him confined.  As long as I can keep him about 2 feet off the ground with no way to climb down, he should stay on it.

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*Bogertophis* (07-20-2022)

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## Caitlin

> You probably use one of those puppy playpens.  That would be too large to hang.
> 
> What I like about the coat rack is that I can use the height to keep him confined.  As long as I can keep him about 2 feet off the ground with no way to climb down, he should stay on it.


I have to admit I had a bit of a chuckle over this. He's an Antaresia. He WILL find a way to climb down.

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*Bogertophis* (07-20-2022),_Homebody_ (07-20-2022)

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## Homebody

> I have to admit I had a bit of a chuckle over this. He's an Antaresia. He WILL find a way to climb down.


Matching wits with them is one of the great joys of keeping them.

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*Bogertophis* (07-20-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> ...As long as I can keep him about 2 feet off the ground with no way to climb down, he should stay on it.


Don't bet on that!   :ROFL:  He can circle that pole very easily & head down to the floor- so DON'T make the mistake of not watching him when he's using that-  or you'll be playing "hide & seek" instead.

I've used something similar with some of my rat snakes- they don't stay put, that's for sure.  They don't even stay up there for very long... :ROFL:

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_dakski_ (07-20-2022),_Homebody_ (07-20-2022)

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## Homebody

> Don't bet on that!   He can circle that pole very easily & head down to the floor- so DON'T make the mistake of not watching him when he's using that-  or you'll be playing "hide & seek" instead.


I just thought of this this morning, so there will definitely be kinks to work out in the design.  In my head, one of my hanging platforms will prevent him from climbing down the pole, but don't worry.  Wiggles and I will put it through rigorous testing.  If it doesn't work.  Well, it costs $15.  Maybe it'll make a good coat rack.

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## Bogertophis

> I just thought of this this morning, so there will definitely be kinks to work out in the design.  In my head, one of my hanging platforms will prevent him from climbing down the pole, but don't worry.  Wiggles and I will put it through rigorous testing.  If it doesn't work.  Well, it costs $15.  Maybe it'll make a good coat rack.


If you keep it "interesting enough" maybe he'll want to stay up there.  Like hang some baskets or other things he can "hide" in, like fake foliage.  I just know my snakes never stay put, lol, but "your results may vary".

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_Homebody_ (07-20-2022)

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## Homebody

What do you think about repti-links for Children's pythons?  The pick below is from their mega-blend advertising.  The mega-blend has: Guinea fowl, Chicken, Quail (includes whole bird and some feathers), Ohio raised New Zealand white or California white breed rabbit, and bullfrog, 100% natural collagen casing.  I understand that a variety of prey is healthier, my local rodent supplier isn't the most reliable, and I don't think my wife would mind me keeping these in the freezer because they look like regular sausages rather than dead rodents.

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*Bogertophis* (07-21-2022)

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## Bogertophis

She'll only mind if she cooks them for breakfast accidentally.   :ROFL: 

I see nothing wrong with feeding Repti-links- the only question is whether your snake will eat them.  I've never tried them on any of my snakes.

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_Homebody_ (07-21-2022)

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## Homebody

> I see nothing wrong with feeding Repti-links- the only question is whether your snake will eat them.


I'll try them for his first meal after a shed.  He'll be extra hungry then.

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_Albert Clark_ (07-23-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I'll try them for his first meal after a shed.  He'll be extra hungry then.


Good idea- He probably won't mind at all, but you never know?  I'm curious to see if he likes them.

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_Homebody_ (07-21-2022)

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## Caitlin

Several of my snakes eagerly accept reptilinks. A couple of them look at me like I'm crazy when I offer them. The Ants will eat anything that doesn't eat them first.

Overall I like them a lot since they are a whole-prey item and they add some nice variety.

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_Albert Clark_ (07-23-2022),*Bogertophis* (07-21-2022),_Homebody_ (07-21-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> ...The Ants will eat anything that doesn't eat them first....


For anyone it may confuse- I'm sure that by "The Ants" you're referring to members of Antaresia- ie. Children's & Spotted pythons+ and NOT the kind of "ants" with many legs that ALSO eat "anything".   :Very Happy:   And I cannot picture my Spotted "Ant" refusing them either.   :Snake2:   Only for the moment, since she's in shed.

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_Caitlin_ (07-22-2022),_Homebody_ (07-21-2022)

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## Homebody

I put together Wiggles's activity station.  It basically consists of a banker's box, a couple lids and some twine attached to the coat rack above.  I added newspaper for substrate, a water bowl, and some hides.



Wiggles tried it out for the first time today.





After an hour and a half, he'd had enough,...



so I put him back in his enclosure.

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## Bogertophis

Apart from the edges/sides, cardboard boxes used as platforms offer very little traction to a snake.  Could stand improvements, IMO, but he obviously enjoyed it for a while anyway.

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## Homebody

> Apart from the edges/sides, cardboard boxes used as platforms offer very little traction to a snake.  Could stand improvements, IMO, but he obviously enjoyed it for a while anyway.


Fair point.  I'll have to put that in the old pot and stew up a solution.  Thanks.

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## Bogertophis

> Fair point.  I'll have to put that in the old pot and stew up a solution.  Thanks.


You might try zip-tying some branches into a network that's attached to the "tree", &/or use some baskets as I've previously described, or use other stuff, tbd.  You're plenty creative, you'll figure it out- many things can work.  But smooth cardboard (like that shelf) has no traction.  Also, something he can literally hide in might go a long way for his "sense of security" (like from birds of prey).

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## Homebody

> You might try zip-tying some branches into a network that's attached to the "tree", &/or use some baskets as I've previously described, or use other stuff, tbd.  You're plenty creative, you'll figure it out- many things can work.  But smooth cardboard (like that shelf) has no traction.  Also, something he can literally hide in might go a long way for his "sense of security" (like from birds of prey).


I know.  It looks spare.  You're probably disappointed.  "Where's all that wonderful Homebody creativity?", you're probably wondering.  Well, unfortunately, Wiggles's activity center needs to be broken down and put away after every use.  As a fellow reptile keeper you can appreciate the beauty of my creation.  You say it should be even bigger and more elaborate.  I agree.  My wife does not.  She sees a tall pile of garbage.  Sigh.

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## Bogertophis

> I know.  It looks spare.  You're probably disappointed.  "Where's all that wonderful Homebody creativity?", you're probably wondering.  Well, unfortunately, Wiggles's activity center needs to be broken down and put away after every use.  As a fellow reptile keeper you can appreciate the beauty of my creation.  You say it should be even bigger and more elaborate.  I agree.  My wife does not.  She sees a tall pile of garbage.  Sigh.


Oh no, so sorry!  But it doesn't need to be difficult to break down- I use pieces of coated wire (stronger than grocery-store twist-ties) to temporarily secure branches, & your snake isn't going to pull them apart anyway.  You can probably pre-connect a couple things that you can easily put on & off the coat rack (even a wreath, with the right-sized holes).  I see a plant nearby- hey, maybe you just need to go all the way for "attractiveness" & get a tall fake tree?  Anyway- we all have challenges- not to worry.

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_Homebody_ (07-24-2022)

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## Homebody

> Oh no, so sorry!  But it doesn't need to be difficult to break down- I use pieces of coated wire (stronger than grocery-store twist-ties) to temporarily secure branches, & your snake isn't going to pull them apart anyway.  You can probably pre-connect a couple things that you can easily put on & off the coat rack (even a wreath, with the right-sized holes).  I see a plant nearby- hey, maybe you just need to go all the way for "attractiveness" & get a tall fake tree?  Anyway- we all have challenges- not to worry.


While each version needs to be simple, fortunately, there can be multiple versions.  It's flexible like that.  So this month it's cardboard platforms.  Well, I don't have a lot of money invested in the cardboard platforms.  So, next month, it can be branches.  The month after, vines.  Each version, taken in isolation, may be boring, but hopefully, by changing it up, I'll keep it interesting for Wiggles.

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*Bogertophis* (07-24-2022)

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## Homebody

Feeding day!  I don't like dead mice and I like dead baby mice even less, but Wiggles's excitement is infectious, so I'm looking forward to it.

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*Bogertophis* (07-27-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> Feeding day!  I don't like dead mice and I like dead baby mice even less, but Wiggles's excitement is infectious, so I'm looking forward to it.


Well I'm sure the feeling's mutual- your sandwich doesn't excite him either.   :ROFL:

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_Caitlin_ (07-27-2022),_Homebody_ (07-27-2022)

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## Homebody

Wiggles had a monumental activity session on Monday.  He climbed onto the activity station, shot up to the top platform, and sat there for two hours.  Sunday’s session was more sedate.  He only explored the first platform.  This time he climbed to the top level like he’d done it a thousand times before.  I was a little disappointed that he just sat there, but there was one unexpected benefit.  I noticed my family interacted with him more.  He wasn’t doing anything, but they all stopped to greet him and compliment his appearance, even my wife.  It’s a lot easier to interact with a snake when it’s at eye level.

His activity sessions usually aren’t so long, but I was waiting for him to show me a sign that he was anything other than perfectly content.  I also wasn’t anxious to get him back in his enclosure.  His ambient temps have been a little too high lately due to the weather and, while the temperatures were the same on this activity session, at least the air flow was better.

After a couple hours or so, I shut off the lights, and Wiggles decided it was time to get down.  I could have just put him away but he hadn’t had much exercise, so I decided to let him try and get down by himself.  His efforts were impressive.  

He anchored himself to the side of the top platform and extended.  It must have been a full two thirds of this body length straight out, but there was nothing to grab.  Prior to the session, I didn’t think he’d be able to climb down around the platform.  He did so with ease by anchoring himself to a coat hook, extending himself over the edge of the platform and back to another coat hook on the underside.  My confidence that the activity station is escape proof took a big hit there.

The bottom platform foiled his efforts though.  He just couldn’t manage it.  The sides are higher so the distance from his anchor point to the pole on the underside was further than he could reach.  Though he didn’t manage it Monday, I’m concerned that with practice he will.  I don’t need the activity station to be escape proof, but I do need it to be escape resistant.  We’ll see how that goes.

At bedtime, I moved his activity station close to his enclosure so he could put himself away, but he still hadn’t had enough.  He climbed off the station, but onto the window sill and started to follow his old track around the room.  From the sill, he usually climbs down my son’s telescope, but I moved it.  So, he anchored himself to the sill using this cool Centipede Tetris maneuver and climbed to the ground without it.



At his point, I’d had enough.  Four hours after the activity session started, I tapped him with the paper towel roll, gently picked him up and I put him away.  I was all set to do it again last night, but Wiggles wasn’t.  When I opened his enclosure, he just sat there with his head on the threshold.  I said to him, “After last night, you earned it.”

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (07-27-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Sounds like a very production & enjoyable session for everyone.   :Good Job:    That's hilarious that last night he thought better of coming out.

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_Homebody_ (07-27-2022)

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## Homebody

More pics of Wiggles messing around:

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (07-27-2022),_EL-Ziggy_ (07-28-2022)

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## Bogertophis

That's like a confidence-building course for snakes!   :Very Happy:   And I have to say, he's racking up the points.

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_Homebody_ (07-28-2022)

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## Homebody

...and many happy returns.  Wiggles is two years old today.

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*Bogertophis* (07-29-2022),_EL-Ziggy_ (07-29-2022)

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## Bogertophis

:Tip of the Hat:  :Dancing Carrot:  :Fest2:  :Bday:  :Fest:  :Pink Elephant:  :Cake:  :Clap:    What a great looking cake (for a snake)- :Very Happy:

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_Homebody_ (07-29-2022)

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## Homebody

Wiggles just began and ended his activity session all on his own.  I noticed he was hanging out on his perches, so I thought he might be game for an activity session.  He thought it over for about 20 minutes, but ultimately decided to come out.  

Out and up to the top of his enclosure, he climbed on my potted plants, the candy bowl, some books, and the fan (turned off).  Then, he went over to the window sill where he took in outside smells through the screen.  He even got a little sun. When hed had enough, he put himself away.

What made the session great was that I know Wiggles got just the amount of activity that he needed.  I always give Wiggles the freedom to choose when to start an activity session, but letting him choose when to end it is more difficult.  Most often, he wants to stay out longer than I am available to supervise him.  Other times, he may want to return, but doesnt know how.  He has to rely on me to read his sometimes ambiguous signals.  This time, he was able to end the session on his own.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (07-30-2022)

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## Bogertophis

That's awesome!   :Good Job:

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_Homebody_ (07-30-2022)

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## Caitlin

I love hearing this - you are doing really good work with him and he's obviously responding! It's SO satisfying when they start to manage their 'freedom time' in a way that works well for both snake and keeper. And Antaresia are so bright and responsive that they learn really quickly.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (07-30-2022),_Homebody_ (07-30-2022)

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## Homebody

> I love hearing this - you are doing really good work with him and he's obviously responding! It's SO satisfying when they start to manage their 'freedom time' in a way that works well for both snake and keeper. And Antaresia are so bright and responsive that they learn really quickly.


Putting himself away from on top of his enclosure is a great start.  I don't think he's fluent at it yet, but I agree that he'll learn quickly.  Next, I'll try to teach him to put himself away from his activity station.  Then, likely using his target training, I'll teach him to put himself away from the floor.  At that point, I'll be confident that he can end any activity session when he's no longer benefitting from it.  That's the goal anyway.  We'll see how it goes.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022)

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## Homebody

I lost Wiggles.  Last night, during an activity session, he slithered under my couch.  At least, I thought he did.  When I went to check on him, he wasn't there.  I thoroughly searched that and the adjoining rooms.  Then, I searched the more distant bedrooms.  Finally, I decided I'd have better luck if I let him come to me.

Wiggles is an active little guy.  I didn't see him holding up in one spot for long.  So, I crumpled some newspaper and put in across the thresholds in every room.  I figured when he slithered across them, it would make enough noise for me to hear.  I turned off the lights, grabbed my flashlight, and I waited.  At midnight, I let myself doze off on the sofa flashlight at the ready.  I woke up periodically during the night and checked the newspapers, but they were undisturbed.

After work, I plan to stop off at the reptile shop and pick up some pinkies to bait him out of hiding.  At this point, I'm still optimistic that he'll turn up.  I had a hamster once that went missing for weeks.  Still it ain't fun.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (08-01-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Nope, NOT fun!  :Sad:   Have you turned your couch "inside out"?  remove cushions, & turn couch over & check for any holes in the lining fabric that would allow him to go inside the couch?  That's a favorite place that snakes gravitate to.  

You've been "playing with fire" by letting him out so much (if you're anything like me, that is- I'm always multi-tasking & distractions get us in trouble!) & I wouldn't count on him "coming to you" but I hope I'm wrong.  Good luck!   :Please: 

If he's in your couch, the scent of food might bring him out- but I would get fuzzies at least- with fur, they'll have more scent.  You can always freeze them & serve them when he's bigger.  (Just for the scent, getting one adult mouse might be even better- especially if it works- but just make sure it can't escape, & that he cannot actually get to it.)

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),_Homebody_ (08-01-2022)

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## Homebody

> Nope, NOT fun!   Have you turned your couch "inside out"?  remove cushions, & turn couch over & check for any holes in the lining fabric that would allow him to go inside the couch?  That's a favorite place that snakes gravitate to.


Yes.  I did all that.




> You've been "playing with fire" by letting him out so much (if you're anything like me, that is- I'm always multi-tasking & distractions get us in trouble!) & I wouldn't count on him "coming to you" but I hope I'm wrong.  Good luck!


Yes.  Clearly I've been giving him too much freedom.  When I find him, he's going to be so grounded.




> If he's in your couch, the scent of food might bring him out- but I would get fuzzies at least- with fur, they'll have more scent.  You can always freeze them & serve them when he's bigger.  (Just for the scent, getting one adult mouse might be even better- especially if it works- but just make sure it can't escape, & that he cannot actually get to it.)


Will do.  Thanks for the tip.

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## Bogertophis

P.S.  Adult MALE mice have the most odor (scent).  It would be worth the sacrifice (or you could rehome him, lol) if it works.  A small fan set on low would help circulate his "fragrance" too.   Just make sure the mouse can't escape... :Wink: 





> ...Clearly I've been giving him too much freedom. When I find him, he's going to be so grounded...


 :ROFL:   :ROFL:   :ROFL:

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),_Homebody_ (08-01-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Also, keep looking UP- these little pythons climb well & seem to like the safety of hunting from above.  And heat rises, so higher up might be more to his liking.  The little brat... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   (This is the drawback of Antaresia, compared to BPs- they're much smaller & harder to find when they hide.  Good luck!)

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),_Homebody_ (08-01-2022)

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## Homebody

My wife just called me.  She was very upset.  She can't do the laundry because Wiggles is in the laundry cart and she's afraid to move it.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),_GoingPostal_ (08-01-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> My wife just called me.  She was very upset.  She can't do the laundry because Wiggles is in the laundry cart and she's afraid to move it.


 :Very Happy:   Your wife is afraid of that little worm?  Hey, at least he's FOUND!   :Dance:

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## Homebody

> Your wife is afraid of that little worm?  Hey, at least he's FOUND!


My son came to her rescue, so no need to fret.  The laundry will get done.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (08-01-2022)

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## Homebody

> ...Clearly I've been giving him too much freedom. When I find him, he's going to be so grounded.





> 


On a serious note, I think I will scale back his activity sessions.  Not because Wiggles did anything wrong, but because I can't handle them.  I'm thinking one late night session a week.  Late night to minimize distractions.  I'll add more sessions as my supervisory skills improve.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (08-01-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> On a serious note, I think I will scale back his activity sessions.  Not because Wiggles did anything wrong, but because I can't handle them.  I'm thinking one late night session a week.  Late night to minimize distractions.  I'll add more sessions as my supervisory skills improve.


As long as you're not dozing off late night- been there, done that!   :Cool:   Yeah, Wiggles was just being a snek!   :Snake:  

Something to consider (& based on what I've seen with various different kinds of snakes I've kept over the years):  Many snakes sit still as a form of camouflage from predators.  As much as they get to know us, I think their instincts still tell them to "sit still" when we're watching them, & move off the moment we're no longer looking.  Like I said, been there... I'm very glad he was found quickly & unharmed.   :Good Job:

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_Homebody_ (08-01-2022)

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## Snagrio

Glad you found him safe and sound!  :Very Happy: 

I'm always paranoid about escapes and snakes getting out of my hands and getting to where I can't retrieve them, especially as I've gradually gone from a slow BP to a speedy VBB.  :Worry:

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (08-01-2022),_Homebody_ (08-01-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> Glad you found him safe and sound! 
> 
> I'm always paranoid about escapes and snakes getting out of my hands and getting to where I can't retrieve them, especially as I've gradually gone from a slow BP to a speedy VBB.


You're absolutely right to stay vigilant.  And skinny snakes fit in more places too- plus they climb better.

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_Homebody_ (08-01-2022)

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## Bogertophis

@ Homebody- that's another thing Wiggles would like to play (climb) on- an empty laundry basket (as long as all the holes are a safe size- nothing he can get stuck in).   And it seems he's already shown a propensity for doing laundry... :Very Happy:

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_Homebody_ (08-02-2022)

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## Homebody

> Something to consider (& based on what I've seen with various different kinds of snakes I've kept over the years):  Many snakes sit still as a form of camouflage from predators.  As much as they get to know us, I think their instincts still tell them to "sit still" when we're watching them, & move off the moment we're no longer looking.


I can't tell you how many times I've lost Wiggles only to find him right in front of my face.  He's not a chameleon! He's brown with a faint spotted pattern, but evolution has given him the ability to fit perfectly in the gaps in our perception making him, at times, effectively invisible.  It's spooky.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (08-02-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I can't tell you how many times I've lost Wiggles only to find him right in front of my face.  He's not a chameleon! He's brown with a faint spotted pattern, but evolution has given him the ability to fit perfectly in the gaps in our perception making him, at times, effectively invisible.  It's spooky.


Yes, my Spotted python has excellent camouflage for shadowy places too- darker green w/faint speckling ("granite phase").  Either way, their patterns help break up their overall body shape that we see.  I hope he's at least a little contrite today?   :Wink:   LOL

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_Homebody_ (08-02-2022)

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## Homebody

> I'm always paranoid about escapes and snakes getting out of my hands and getting to where I can't retrieve them, especially as I've gradually gone from a slow BP to a speedy VBB.


Yeah, I'm still adjusting from BP care to Children's care.  I used to let my BP roam all.  Because he was large and slow, I only had to keep a half eye on him.  While my Children's is still slow, I find I need to keep two eyes on him.  I admire your VBB and I'll follow closely its progression, but I don't envy your challenge in keeping up with it.  When he's out, you may need to find a way to put a third eye on him.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022)

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## Homebody

> @ Homebody- that's another thing Wiggles would like to play (climb) on- an empty laundry basket (as long as all the holes are a safe size- nothing he can get stuck in).   And it seems he's already shown a propensity for doing laundry...


I've heard that snakes like soft surfaces.  I'll have to add some to his enclosure and activity center.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (08-02-2022)

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## Homebody

> I hope he's at least a little contrite today?    LOL


Contrite?  I don't think so.  Ungrateful little punk was begging to get out three hours later.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (08-11-2022)

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## Homebody

> Your wife is afraid of that little worm?  Hey, at least he's FOUND!


I feel like I have to set the record straight.  I got the full story when I got home.  She wasn't afraid of him.  She was afraid for him.  She was in the laundry room in the basement of our building when she found him.  She was afraid to move because she didn't want to startle him.  If she lost him again there, he'd be even harder to find.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (08-02-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> Contrite?  I don't think so.  Ungrateful little punk was begging to get out three hours later.


Hate to say it but you've "created a monster" hahahaha!  Sure hope he doesn't take to rubbing his nose raw while pushing to leave home for another excursion.  

Yes, some snakes do seem to like soft things too- a clean un-matched sock that you don't need just might make his day?

Even some snug (clean) boxes are enjoyed- one of my young (4') rat snake ladies like to curl up in empty Kleenex boxes.   :Cool:   And if you have some various small clean boxes, you can cut little doorways w/ an Exacto knife & join them together for a "maze"- I've done that for young rat snakes before, & they LOVED it, always peeking out of different holes.  Of course when it gets dirty, it goes, but it's just one more "toy" challenge for them.

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_Homebody_ (08-02-2022)

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## Homebody

Last night's target training went really well.  For both feeders, he moved his whole body a short distance to the target before I fed him.  I'd say this puts him at stage 4.  Stages 5, 6 & 7 basically entail making him travel progressively further to the target before he's fed.  I'm confident we can do that.

The reason I'm so excited is that two weeks ago he didn't really react to the target at all, so I just fed him with the target present (stage 1).  I started to doubt my ability to do this, but, then, last week, I was shocked when Wiggles struck at the target _twice_.  I realized, "Ah, so you do know what the target means."  Armed with that realization, I was much more patient this week.  When I presented the target, Wiggles just stared at me.  I said to myself, "Be patient.  He knows what the target means."  It was only a couple minutes before he broke.  He started to move toward the target.  I fed him when he reached it.  It went the same with the second feeder.

My problem was that I lacked the confidence to be patient.  I've never done this before.  It's easy to doubt that I'm doing it correctly.  I see now that I am doing it correctly, and Wiggles is progressing.  Armed with that confidence, I know I'll have the patience necessary to see Wiggles through the final stages of his training and I'm very excited about that.

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*Bogertophis* (08-04-2022)

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## Homebody

Ive noticed that Wiggles avoids doing things that lead directly to being handled.  Thats why he no longer goes in the forbidden gap (post #59).  When I open his enclosure now, he still heads over to the gap.  He explores it with his head and neck, but he doesnt go in.  I monitor his behavior pretty closely.  So, when he does this, I move my chair a little closer so I can grab him if I need to.  When I do this, he withdraws immediately and looks at me.  I imagine him saying, I was just looking.  I wasnt going to go in there.  His fear of being handled, in that moment, is palpable.

When I say fear, I dont mean terror.  He doesnt strike at me.  He just doesnt want to be handled.  Its like if you drive too fast through a speed trap.  Youre afraid youre going to get a ticket.  That fear of being handled has proven to be an effective teaching tool.

During last nights activity session, Wiggles made a beeline for the hallway where I keep my laundry cart.  Thats where I eventually found him after I lost him a couple weeks ago and, as a result, where hes no longer allowed to go.  Just before he reached the threshold, I scooped him up and put him back on his activity station.  From there, he made a beeline for the hallway again, and again, I scooped him up and returned him to his activity station.  I dont know how many times we did this, 3, 4, maybe 5 times, but, eventually, before he reached the threshold he stopped on his own, sat there for a minute or two and went back the way he came.  I hope, eventually, hell learn to keep himself in the living room and I wont have to intervene so often.

This got me to thinking, How do I feel about Wiggless perception of my handling as negative reinforcement?  It turns out Im totally o.k. with it.  I think I differ from a lot of keepers in that Ive never really enjoyed handling all that much.  When I had a bp, who is the undisputed king of handling, I found that what I enjoyed the most was when he climbed off my shoulders and started exploring.  By giving him the freedom to explore on his own, I was able to learn what he liked and what he didn't.  I got to know him personally.  When he passed, I decided to get a snake that was more active and inquisitive.  That he was less handleable didnt bother me.

Now, I know that negative reinforcement is a limited tool.  Tickets dont stop people from speeding.  Wiggles will get accustomed to my handing, but Ill happily use it as long as its effective.

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*Bogertophis* (08-11-2022)

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## Homebody

Last night, Wiggles completed five laps around my living room and, when he'd had enough, he put himself away.  He was hanging out on his branches when I went to refresh his water and replace his ice block.  When I was done, I just laid down in front of his enclosure to watch him.  He stopped by to give me a sniff before climbing out onto the top of his enclosure.  Over the course of a lap, he'll climb my house plants, surf the screen of the open window, climb down off the window sill into a large fern, crawl under one end table, behind my couch, under the matching end table, and finally head for the door.  There I tap him, scoop him up, and return him to the activity station on top of his enclosure.  Last night's session was particularly satisfying because my daughter was there and it was she who scooped him up at the end of each lap.  I just love sharing the joy I get from playing with Wiggles with others.  It was also satisfying because Wiggles was able to end the session when he'd had enough.

It was funny to me how it ended.  On the fourth lap, I could see he was getting tired.  He stopped to rest in the fern, under the couch and in the wicker basket on the second end table.  So when I scooped him up, I thought he'd return to his enclosure.  I'm pretty confident that he knows how to get back into his enclosure from his activity station.  He's done it before.  He did start for the enclosure entrance, but surprised me by heading out for another lap.  I'm not sure if he tried to return home and just got confused, or if he changed his mind and just decided he wanted to go for another lap.  Either way, on lap five he didn't dawdle.  He raced through it.  I think he was eager to get home.  Sure enough, at the end of it, he quickly and confidently put himself away.

It was a prototypical activity session.  He started it; he was active but also safe during it; and when he'd had enough, he ended it.  I know they won't all go this well.  Wiggles and I still have a lot to learn, but I expect good quality sessions like this one to one day become the norm.

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*Bogertophis* (08-24-2022)

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## Bogertophis

That's awesome!   :Good Job:    I think he's trying to redeem himself after giving you such a scare when he disappeared recently-  :Very Happy:

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_Homebody_ (08-24-2022)

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## Homebody

> I think he's trying to redeem himself after giving you such a scare when he disappeared recently-


I dunno.  From Wiggles's point of view, last night was five more failed attempts to escape via the laundry cart, but it's o.k.  I know that one day the love and admiration I have for him will be mutual.

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## Bogertophis

> ... I know that one day the love and admiration I have for him will be mutual.


That I've gotta see- I have some doubts.   :Very Happy:   (Not that you aren't deserving, just that  :Snake:  will be  :Snake: .)

Personally, I'm happy just to have these essentially-wild animals feel comfortable & safe with me.  I wouldn't really call it love or admiration though.

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_Homebody_ (08-24-2022)

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## Homebody

> That I've gotta see- I have some doubts.    (Not that you aren't deserving, just that  will be .)
> 
> Personally, I'm happy just to have these essentially-wild animals feel comfortable & safe with me.  I wouldn't really call it love or admiration though.


Indifference, then.  I know that one day Wiggles will feel as indifferent to me as I love and admire him.  Better?

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_Albert Clark_ (09-30-2022)

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## Homebody

Wiggless target training went well tonight.  This comes as something of a relief because his past couple sessions havent gone well.  August 24th, he didnt react to the target at all, so I didnt feed him.  I checked my calendar and decided that he must be going into a shed.  Funny thing though, he remained active.  Came out every night for his activity session.  I started to wonder if he had just failed to recognize the target.  August 31, still didnt react to the target.  Still didnt get fed.  My doubt grew until a couple days later, he went into his pre-shed hiding.

He came out of hiding yesterday.  Tonight he relocated a short distance in his enclosure (training stage 5 of 7) to the target both times before being fed.  The difference in how he reacted to the target was stark.  The two previous sessions, he didnt react at all.  Tonight, he stalked it. Very cool.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (09-14-2022),_dakski_ (09-14-2022),Kryptic (09-24-2022)

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## Bogertophis

That's great.  I can sure see how this requires patience for the periodic frustration, but hey, you're getting there, & apparently he knows what he wants.   :Good Job:

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_Albert Clark_ (09-30-2022),_Homebody_ (09-14-2022)

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## Homebody

I've recently started using this insulated paper that Amazon Fresh uses to pack frozen foods in Wiggles's enclosure.  It's soft and insulating like a blanket, but I don't have to clean it if Wiggles soils it.  So, it's very useful.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-24-2022),*Bogertophis* (09-24-2022)

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## Homebody



----------

_Albert Clark_ (09-30-2022),blisterbeetle (09-28-2022),*Bogertophis* (09-28-2022),_dakski_ (09-29-2022)

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## Homebody

The video above is something of a graduation from target training for Wiggles.  The seventh and final stage of target training is to target out of the enclosure and onto an activity station.  That is essentially what happens here.  Although it was only two weeks ago that Wiggles was at stage 5 (post #172), stage six was not really a challenge for Wiggles.  Stage six requires him to target across the threshold of his enclosure.  This can be quite a challenge for a shy snake, but Wiggles is a confident snake that eagerly leaves his enclosure nightly for his activity session.  So, I decided to skip that step.

I will continue target training him.  Not all our target training sessions go that well.  So, he can grow in his proficiency, and I will also teach him to target over greater distances.

Also, one of the reasons I decided on such an ambitious session was that I wanted to get a weight on him.  As you can see from the video, he weighed in at 187 grams.  That is 23 grams more that his last weigh in on June 25th.  His rate of growth has slowed significantly.  His June 25th weight was 44 grams more than his March 26th weight which was 39 grams more that his January weight.  As he matures, I expect the rate of his growth to slow even further.  I’ll keep weighing him quarterly, though, for as long as he shows significant growth.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-30-2022),*Bogertophis* (09-30-2022)

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## Caitlin

You and Wiggles are doing SO well together! He's made really wonderful progress in target training, and it sounds like he's enjoying his exploration sessions.

I also have a couple of snakes that, while they aren't afraid of me at all and don't mind being in close proximity, simply prefer not to be handled. That's fine. I'm just happy that they trust me. I keep handling down to only necessary situations and even then I try to give them the option of maybe shifting to a container or climbing onto a pet bed, branch, etc. to be carried rather than held.

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_Albert Clark_ (10-18-2022),*Bogertophis* (10-01-2022),_Homebody_ (10-01-2022)

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## Homebody

Look who's hunting microbats.



"Any minute now, a bat's gonna fly out of that cave.  I just know it."

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_Albert Clark_ (10-18-2022),*Bogertophis* (10-06-2022),_MD_Pythons_ (10-13-2022)

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## Homebody

Last night, I learned that I need to be more flexible in my target training.  Lately, I've been pretty rigid.  My thinking has been that Wiggles knows that if he touches the target he gets fed.  He needs to learn that, if he doesn't touch the target, he doesn't get fed.  For you logicians out there, he knows that touching the target is sufficient to get fed.  He needs to learn that it's also necessary.  So, lately, if Wiggles didn't touch the target, he didn't get fed.  That's what happened last week, and if I stayed rigid, it would have happened again this week.

Last night, when I presented the target, he showed some interest, but didn't move toward it and didn't touch it.  I became concerned that he was going to miss another meal.  He's healthy enough to do it, but I started to wonder if it was my training and not Wiggles's appetite that was the problem.  I decided to compromise on the goal.  I cut off the mouse's tail and simply presented it with the target.  This is stage 1 stuff.  Wiggles is supposed to be at stage 7, so this is a big compromise.  It worked. He ate the tail.  When I presented the target again, he quickly and confidently moved out of his enclosure onto the station (stage 7), just like he's supposed to.  I'm not entirely sure why Wiggles needed to take that step back to move forward, but I'm glad to worked.

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_Albert Clark_ (10-18-2022),*Bogertophis* (10-13-2022)

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## Homebody

According to Serpwidgets.com, Wiggles is 31.29 - 31.79 inches long.

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_Albert Clark_ (10-18-2022),*Bogertophis* (10-17-2022)

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## Homebody

I have received the prize.  Now, I know everything!  I am everything! (Highlander, 1986)

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*Bogertophis* (10-22-2022),YungRasputin (10-22-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Good, we'll expect GREAT things from you now!   Side note- when I first got my spotted python, I nicknamed her "Aunt Theresa" because it helped me remember her species name.   :Cool:  

When I got to know her better, she became Yiva, which means "wolf" or "she-wolf" in Scandinavian- so much more appropriate.   :Snake2:

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_Homebody_ (10-22-2022)

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## Homebody

> Good, we'll expect GREAT things from you now!


Now wait a minute!  In my excitement, I may have gotten a bit ahead of myself.  I should, at least, read the book first.  I did read the first chapter, and I'll say it's a dense read.  I'm going to have to read it again while also reading the sources that they cite to better understand it.  Then, I'll probably need to read it a third time.  So, it's going to take me a while get through all 256 pages.  As I go along, though, I'll share about the most interesting things I learn.

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*Bogertophis* (10-22-2022)

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## YungRasputin

how many books Mutton got 🤔

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## Homebody

> how many books Mutton got 🤔


Three that I know of.  This one and two on carpet pythons.

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YungRasputin (10-22-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> Now wait a minute!  In my excitement, I may have gotten a bit ahead of myself.  I should, at least, read the book first.  I did read the first chapter, and I'll say it's a dense read.  I'm going to have to read it again while also reading the sources that they cite to better understand it.  Then, I'll probably need to read it a third time.  So, it's going to take me a while get through all 256 pages.  As I go along, though, I'll share about the most interesting things I learn.


I was thinking you oughta read it first... :ROFL:  But you'll get there.

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## YungRasputin

> Three that I know of.  This one and two on carpet pythons.


was gonna say! someone just the other day in the carpet python section recommended me 1 of the carpet books and then i saw this so i was like hmm 🤔

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## Homebody

> was gonna say! someone just the other day in the carpet python section recommended me 1 of the carpet books and then i saw this so i was like hmm 🤔


The second one on carpets is just an expansion of the first one.  It's not out yet, but should be out soon.  So, I'd wait for it.

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YungRasputin (10-23-2022)

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## blisterbeetle

i would love to own that book one day, it seems like a great read.  :Smile:

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_Homebody_ (10-23-2022)

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## Homebody

I cleaned Wiggles's enclosure a day early.  I have the day off and Wiggles conveniently decided to come out for a morning activity session.  His activity sessions have been much less active of late.  He used to do laps around my living room.  Recently, he discovered my bookcase.  This was one of my late BP's favorite haunts.  He hides his body behind the books but leaves his head out so he can watch what's going on.  He can sit here for hours.

I've also recently reduced the amount I'm feeding him.  I tried adding a pinkie to his hopper, but he started refusing.  Since the change, he's been eating regularly.  I'll reconsider this depending on his New Year's weigh-in.

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## Bogertophis

Nothing better than a scholarly predator!   :ROFL:  As far as adding a pinkie- are you just trying to use them up?  They don't add much in the way of nutrition, & his objection might have to do with the fact that for snakes with longer teeth, pinkies can be awkward to consume (they can actually get stuck on their teeth- I've noticed this with some snakes).  He's looking great.   :Love:

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_Homebody_ (11-25-2022)

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## Homebody

> As far as adding a pinkie- are you just trying to use them up?


No.  I was just trying to add a few grams to his meal.  I thought a hopper was too small, but that an adult mouse would be too big, so I added a pinkie to the hopper.

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## Homebody

He's getting more comfortable with me. He crawled onto my arm himself.

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*Bogertophis* (12-05-2022),_dakski_ (12-05-2022)

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## Spicey

> Nothing better than a scholarly predator!   As far as adding a pinkie- are you just trying to use them up?  They don't add much in the way of nutrition, & his objection might have to do with the fact that for snakes with longer teeth, pinkies can be awkward to consume (they can actually get stuck on their teeth- I've noticed this with some snakes).  He's looking great.



And they don't have fingers to poke the pinkie from between their teeth . . . .

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*Bogertophis* (12-05-2022),_Homebody_ (12-05-2022)

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## Homebody

> And they don't have fingers to poke the pinkie from between their teeth . . . .


He didn't obviously to have any trouble with them, but I guess he may have.  I'll pay closer attention if I ever have to feed pinkies in the future.  For now, I have a different feeding challenge, reptilinks.  My first order should be delivered tomorrow.

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## Bogertophis

> He didn't obviously to have any trouble with them, but I guess he may have.  I'll pay closer attention if I ever have to feed pinkies in the future.  For now, I have a different feeding challenge, reptilinks.  My first order should be delivered tomorrow.


I can remember (when I was very new to keeping snakes) seeing a snake have that trouble with a pinkie- one was a BP.  Wiggles head is smaller though.  

Hey, I've never tried Reptilinks for any of my snakes- I sure hope he likes them, & good luck with that.

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## Homebody

> I can remember (when I was very new to keeping snakes) seeing a snake have that trouble with a pinkie- one was a BP.  Wiggles head is smaller though.


I know what you mean.  I fed Wiggles a mouse tail once just to wet his appetite for a training session.  It worked, but he sure struggled to get it down.

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## Homebody

I scented the Reptilink with a hopper mouse.  Watching him trying to find the head was hilarious.

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*Bogertophis* (12-07-2022),SunshineWalker (01-11-2023)

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## Bogertophis

Hey, he did GREAT!   :Good Job:   But shame on you for laughing at his trouble finding the head... :Very Happy:   He got it done, at least.  Maybe he was thinking "What's up with this bald mouse?"   :Snake:

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_Homebody_ (12-07-2022)

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## Homebody

This is the story of Wiggles's first Reptilink.  For those that don't know, Reptilinks are sausages specifically designed as reptile feeders.  By blending together different types of feeders, Reptilinks provide a easy way to give your pet a varied diet.  I got their most popular Megablend.  It combines rabbit, guinea fowl, chicken and bull frog.  Because Children's pythons eat a variety of prey in the wild, I want to provide similar variety in captivity.

I hadn't ordered before now because Reptilinks doesn't ship small orders.  They require you to buy three items.  They say it's not economical for them to ship less.  One package of my links contains 40 links.  Because I only have one small snake, that would last me a year.  Three packages would last three years.  I don't have a freezer that will keep them fresh for that long.  They sell other things too, including live feeders, but nothing I was interested in.  After some months, I managed to persuade my local exotic pet shop to buy the extras.  A Black Friday deal from Reptilinks allowed me to sell at a price that interested them.  I hope I'll be able to do this annually.

Once I had the links, my next problem was getting Wiggles to eat them.  They are sausages.  They both look and smell different than the hopper mouse he's used to.  I was reasonably confident that I would ultimately succeed.  Children's pythons are not picky eaters.  I just wasn't sure how long it would take.  It turns out not long.  He took it on the first try.

Preparing it was really easy.  I scented the link with a hopper mouse.  I don't plan to keep doing this going forward, but I thought I should to ease the transition.  To thaw it, I just held one frozen link (12g) in my hand until it heated up to 90 degrees.  It only took a few minutes.  It was much faster than thawing out a hopper.  No water bowls or water changes required.

He took it from my tongs as usual.  There was no hesitation.  The only trouble he had was trying to find the head.  Now, the sausage's blunt ends are wider than a hoppers nose.  Once he gave up trying to find the head, he really struggled to get his mouth around that blunt end, but he ultimately succeeded.  Next time, I'll try squeezing one end make it smaller.

Overall, I'm very happy with them.  They are a higher quality feeder than I get from local shop, and my wife does mind keeping them in our freezer.  While I plan to feed Reptilinks primarily from now on, I may occasionally feed Wiggles a hopper just to keep that option open in case I need it.

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*Bogertophis* (12-08-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Did you mean to say that your wife "does *not* mind" keeping them in your freezer?   :Wink: 

I'm glad Wiggles took to the Reptilinks so easily, & especially that your local shop helped you make the deal so you didn't have to buy three years worth with only one snake to feed.  Of course you also could have gotten more snakes. :ROFL:  (I'm a bad influence!)

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## Homebody

> Did you mean to say that your wife "does *not* mind" keeping them in your freezer?


That's right.  Antagonizing my wife doesn't benefit me or Wiggles.  We both dearly depend on her good graces.

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## Homebody

Wiggles's new favorite hiding spot is curiously warm.



It's this warm because his radiant heat panel is directly below it.  What's more, this spot is under our Christmas tree skirt which presumably traps the rising heat.

When I started, I kept his basking spot between 85 - 90F.  Then I bumped it up to 90 - 95F and noticed a marked increase in activity and appetite.  Do I dare bump it up to 95-100F?  Having kept a ball python for years, those temperature seem dangerous, but they are not outside the range given in some care guides for Antaresia pythons (most notably the one from Reptile magazine.)

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*Bogertophis* (12-13-2022)

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## dakski

> Wiggles's new favorite hiding spot is curiously warm.
> 
> 
> 
> It's this warm because his radiant heat panel is directly below it.  What's more, this spot is under our Christmas tree skirt which presumably traps the rising heat.
> 
> When I started, I kept his basking spot between 85 - 90F.  Then I bumped it up to 90 - 95F and noticed a marked increase in activity and appetite.  Do I dare bump it up to 95-100F?  Having kept a ball python for years, those temperature seem dangerous, but they are not outside the range given in some care guides for Antaresia pythons (most notably the one from Reptile magazine.)


If Wiggles is digesting properly - no lumps in 2 days with an appropriate sized meal - and has an appetite and normal waste, I wouldn't push the issue on temps. 

The purpose of temp control, in my mind, is to aid proper digestion and stimulate natural/"appropriate" behavior. If you are doing that, don't raise temps. 

Let's say that Wiggles can handle 100F, but not 103F without damage, short or long-term. Why risk it? That's a small margin of error. 

Shayna - BP - as you mentioned, likes no more than 90F and much more can be dangerous. I keep her hot side about 86-88F, with a spot here or there at 90-91F (literally a spot or two - I'll get to that in a second). This gives my redundant thermostats a few degrees of heat before shutting down the heat, but not to a dangerous level for her. 

The other thing is what will raising the heat do to the cool side in the tank? My boas can handle 90F+ on the hot side, but even in a 6X2X1' tank, much more and the cool side is too hot for them. They like a 80F cool side +/-, but if I push hot side temps then the cool side gets to 82-84F, which is more like ambient temps for them and they get restless. 

My corn snakes have hot spots of 84-86F and a cool side at 75-78F depending on time of year (I use no heating elements on their cool sides). If the temp on the hot side gets too warm AND their cool side gets above 78F or so, they are cruising. They are not happy. Too much heat equates to too much stimulation and they are uncomfortable. Can a corn snake handle 90F, sure, but they won't like for prolonged periods, and what does that do the temps in the rest of the tank. Keep in mind overstimulated animals can get hungrier quicker and if uncomfortable don't really know how to tell you. This could lead to biting or other behavior, but more importantly, it could be bothering your snake. 

Now, the spots. I use RHP's and heat tape on all my tanks. It's impossible to keep every inch of the hot side the desired temp. I hit about 6 spots in a 1-2FTX2FT area in my tanks to test hot side temps. If 5 spots are 88-91F, and one spot is 94F, for my Boas, for example, that's okay. 90%+ of the area is ideal temp and 1 spot is a little high. I can also have a spot that's 86F and the average is 90F. Not a big deal. Nature isn't perfect and nether is keeping snakes in captivity, for a lot of reasons. Pros are we can control the environment, but the cons include being human and making mistakes or thinking we can improve things without consequence. 

One final thought is Yafe, my CP. He can also handle higher temps. 93-95F. However, although there is a spot or two on his basking branch/PVC pipe below the RHP that gets that hot, I keep his hot side on the basking branch about 90-92F and it's 88-90F on the ground below. He will use those areas briefly when digesting, usually right after eating, but spend 90% of his digestion on the hot side where it's 86-88F at the front lift of the tank, just in front of the heat panel, but on the heat tape. He knows and I follow his lead. This doesn't mean I make it as hot as possible and see how he does, but I give him a range and he chooses what's best for him. The other thing, as mentioned, is the cool side. If I made his tank hotter on the hot side, he'd be too warm on the cool side as well. Gradients are good, but proper temps are important too. Both hot and cool side. 

Bottom line, Wiggles is doing great and I'd stick with what's working.

EDIT: On the top of the tank, his belly might be warm/hot, but the ambient temp in the room is much lower (I presume). He could be compensating. However, in the tank, getting the ground to that temp could cause the hot side to be too hot in general, depending on how you are heating it (forgive me for not remembering your setup and also humoring other people who might read this for their benefit).

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*Bogertophis* (12-14-2022),_Homebody_ (12-14-2022)

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## Homebody

> Let's say that Wiggles can handle 100F, but not 103F without damage, short or long-term. Why risk it? That's a small margin of error.


You reasoning is unassailable.  I am persuaded.  I would still like to give him access to 100F degrees when I can do so safely.  Currently, I use those cheap on/off thermostats, so I can only maintain temps within 5F degree range.  I'll revisit the issue once I've upgraded my thermostats.

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*Bogertophis* (12-14-2022),_dakski_ (12-14-2022)

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## Homebody

I tried feeding a Reptilink without scenting it.  No dice.  He struck it repeatedly. but released it each time.  Then, I scented it with a hopper.  He took it without delay.  I guess I'll have to keep scenting it for a while.

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*Bogertophis* (12-16-2022),_dakski_ (12-17-2022)

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## Homebody

Couple things. Target training is going well.  I've been targeting Wiggles out of his enclosure onto his activity station and that's been going well.  It's easy because he likes to come out of his enclosure and he likes to eat, so he's double motivated. Targeting him back into his enclosure is more of a challenge.  He has to choose between food and freedom. He motives are mixed.  Tonight hunger won out and I succeeded.  I thought it would.  You see Wiggles has been pretty hungry the past couple days and that brings me to my second thing.

I decided to feed Wiggles on a 9 day schedule.  My Reptilink pack has 40 links so on a 9 day schedule they'll last the year.  Reptilinks are also higher in calories, so I thought the change was appropriate.  It still might be, but for the past couple days (days 6 and 7 on his schedule), Wiggles has been acting very hungry.  Last night, he stuck at my daughter.  Tried for her face.  He missed, but scared her pretty good.  She ended up laughing it off, but it got me to wondering why he struck, "Food or fear?"  Tonight he took a swipe at my hand, and I decided it was food.

So, I'm not surprised tonight's targeting session went well.  I knew he'd be super motivated.  My 9 day feeding schedule has been called into question.  Time will tell.  Let's see how long this link lasts him.

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*Bogertophis* (12-23-2022),_dakski_ (12-23-2022)

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## Bogertophis

I'm glad that at least he didn't "connect" with anyone.  Hungry snakes have been known to forget their manners-  & since he missed, I assume your hand & her face were far enough away that he wasn't identifying either of you very well- most likely going for the "warm & wiggling" potential prey.  Were you holding him when he tried for your hand?  I assume not, or he'd have caught you, so I'm assuming he didn't have the advantage of your (or her) scent & touch, just played a couple bad hunches.  Silly little snek!  It's far more concerning when they have all the right cues (scent & touch) & bite anyway.  Honest mistakes are easily forgivable.

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_Homebody_ (12-24-2022)

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## Homebody

> I assume your hand & her face were far enough away that he wasn't identifying either of you very well- most likely going for the "warm & wiggling" potential prey.  Were you holding him when he tried for your hand?  I assume not, or he'd have caught you, so I'm assuming he didn't have the advantage of your (or her) scent & touch, just played a couple bad hunches.


Correct on all counts.  Wiggles was on his activity station both times.  We were sitting next to it.  I reached out to touch the station and he made a half-hearted strike.  His strike at my daughter was so surprising because I had just been nose to nose with him.  Then, he did a complete 180 and lunged at her.  I'm surprised she was even on his radar.

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## Bogertophis

> Correct on all counts.  Wiggles was on his activity station both times.  We were sitting next to it.  I reached out to touch the station and he made a half-hearted strike.  His strike at my daughter was so surprising because I had just been nose to nose with him.  Then, he did a complete 180 and lunged at her.  I'm surprised she was even on his radar.


I think this is part of why snakes get such a bad rap- we assume other animals visually identify everything the way we do, but I've seen it many times where a snake is a very short distance from us- maybe after we just set them down, but suddenly they don't recognize us & they lash out- mistaking us either for prey or a predator.  It's the way their reptile brains work- I've always found that for me the best way not to get bit is by keeping a snake close to me.  Once there is space between you, there's room for them to misinterpret & make mistakes.  Scent & touch are to a snake what language is to us.

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_Homebody_ (12-24-2022)

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## Homebody

> I think this is part of why snakes get such a bad rap- we assume other animals visually identify everything the way we do, but I've seen it many times where a snake is a very short distance from us- maybe after we just set them down, but suddenly they don't recognize us & they lash out- mistaking us either for prey or a predator.  It's the way their reptile brains work- I've always found that for me the best way not to get bit is by keeping a snake close to me.  Once there is space between you, there's room for them to misinterpret & make mistakes.  Scent & touch are to a snake what language is to us.


I just read this in Boas and Pythons of the World, "Snakes can detect motion owing to the structure of the retina, which is armed with more rods rather than cones, and provides vision similar to a mammal's peripheral vision with its 'all or nothing' response.  They cannot detect colour or shape."  Very illuminating.

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*Bogertophis* (12-25-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I just read this in Boas and Pythons of the World, "Snakes can detect motion owing to the structure of the retina, which is armed with more rods rather than cones, and provides vision similar to a mammal's peripheral vision with its 'all or nothing' response.  They cannot detect colour or shape."  Very illuminating.


Is this all snakes or just boas & pythons?  My previous sources have said they (snakes) can see some color, but maybe the overall knowledge has changed & is now updated?  My own experience with many snakes does suggest they don't visually make out "shapes" -to recognize us, for example.  But I've also observed that some snakes appear to have much better eyesight than others.  Either way, I make regular use of scent & touch cues to communicate with all my snakes.  'Cause I don't like bites, & I don't like snakes living in fear of the unknown.

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## Homebody

> Is this all snakes or just boas & pythons?


All snakes, but it's an old book (2007).  It wouldn't surprise me, if more recent scholarship found some species can see color.  But if a world renown herpetologist thought that snakes can see neither shape nor color, it stands to reason that they see very differently than we do.  So, we shouldn't be surprised when they fail to recognize us visually.

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*Bogertophis* (12-25-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> All snakes, but it's an old book (2007).  It wouldn't surprise me, if more recent scholarship found some species can see color.  But if a world renown herpetologist thought that snakes can see neither shape nor color, it stands to reason that they see very differently than we do.  So, we shouldn't be surprised when they fail to recognize us visually.


Also, there's no reason to think that all 3000+ species of snakes that differ widely in their methods of survival are all going to have the same sort of visual ability.  I think it's more likely that active diurnal hunters will have superior vision to nocturnal ambush-predators, but I don't don't know that for a fact, only that it seems that way to me, from what I've kept.

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_Homebody_ (12-25-2022)

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## Homebody

So, transitioning to Reptilinks is proving to be more challenging than I thought.  The first time I fed him a Reptilink, I just scented the link by rubbing it on a hopper.  He took it no problem.  The second time I tried not scenting it.  When that didn't work, I scented it, as before, and he took it just fine.  Last night, I tried lightly scenting half of the link.  When that didn't work, I scented it as before.  When that didn't work, I paired it with a mouse tail.  When that didn't work, I slathered it in mouse entrails.  That worked.

However, I don't want to keep buying mice in order to feed Reptilinks.  That's not efficient.  I could just buy one mouse, puree it and coat all my Reptilinks at one time, but, before I resort to that, I think I'll try simply waiting until he's positively ravenous before feeding him.

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*Bogertophis* (01-07-2023),Malum Argenteum (01-07-2023)

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## Bogertophis

> ...However, I don't want to keep buying mice in order to feed Reptilinks.  That's not efficient...


It's not efficient nor does it "save" any mice (for those who prefer that aspect).  From what I've read, Reptilinks have always had acceptance problems with many or most snakes, which is why I've never bothered trying them on any of mine.  I do understand why you'd like to make it work though, so I hope you can manage to do so.  Either way, I'm glad you're sharing your experience here.

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_Homebody_ (01-07-2023)

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## Homebody

> It's not efficient nor does it "save" any mice (for those who prefer that aspect).  From what I've read, Reptilinks have always had acceptance problems with many or most snakes, which is why I've never bothered trying them on any of mine.  I do understand why you'd like to make it work though, so I hope you can manage to do so.  Either way, I'm glad you're sharing your experience here.


I'm confident that I will eventually succeed in the transition.  I know of others with Children's pythons that have.  My experience has made me more reticent to recommend them to others with snakes.  Lizards seem to be more willing to take them, and I think they are a great idea if you have an omnivore that won't eat its veggies.

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## Snagrio

I've always been skeptical over getting a snake to eat Reptilinks. When they're used to eating whole, "unmodified" prey as a rule, always seemed like more hassle than its worth unless the meat involved is very specific (like frogs for a hognose) or the snake in question will eat anything you offer it. Compared to lizards which are more willing to eat anything they come across regardless of form.

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_Homebody_ (01-07-2023)

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## Bogertophis

@ Homebody- As I say, I've never tried offering them, but aren't the Reptilinks also a different texture than an actual rodent?  I'm guessing they're more dense & stiff, & less flexible & soft- so maybe that's part of the problem too?  Snakes go by both scent & sense of touch.  Of course if they were too soft, they'd probably fall apart too, since they're a composite?

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_Homebody_ (01-07-2023)

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## Homebody

> I've always been skeptical over getting a snake to eat Reptilinks. When they're used to eating whole, "unmodified" prey as a rule, always seemed like more hassle than its worth unless the meat involved is very specific (like frogs for a hognose) or the snake in question will eat anything you offer it. Compared to lizards which are more willing to eat anything they come across regardless of form.


Whether feeding Reptilinks is more hassle than it's worth boils down to whether feeding a variety of prey is healthier than feeding only mice.  I'm taking it, pretty much, on faith that it is.  If it is healthier, then it's easier to argue that the hassle is worth it.

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Malum Argenteum (01-07-2023)

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## Homebody

> @ Homebody- As I say, I've never tried offering them, but aren't the Reptilinks also a different texture than an actual rodent?  I'm guessing they're more dense & stiff, & less flexible & soft- so maybe that's part of the problem too?  Snakes go by both scent & sense of touch.  Of course if they were too soft, they'd probably fall apart too, since they're a composite?


No.  Reptilinks are pretty soft once thawed and they don't have bones, intact ones anyway.  I think it comes down to scent.  Snakes have to be taught to recognize the Reptilink scent as food.

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*Bogertophis* (01-07-2023)

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## Homebody

At Wiggles's quarterly weigh in, he tipped that scales at a bruising 225 grams.  That's 38 grams more than last quarter.  That's a bit of a pleasant surprise for me.  He only grew 23 grams at his last weigh in after recording previous gains of 44 and 39 grams. I thought his growth was slowing down, but I guess not.

Sadly, the news isn't all good.  According to serpwidgets, he shrunk two inches (31.79 - 29.9) since the last time I measured him on 10/17/22 (post #180). :Tears:

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*Bogertophis* (01-13-2023),_dakski_ (Yesterday)

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## Bogertophis

I've never used Serpwidgets, but I don't think he actually shrunk- could it be that's the part of his body (in pic above) that's behind something else that didn't get included?

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_dakski_ (Yesterday),_Homebody_ (01-13-2023)

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## dakski

Great on the weight gain! Not as cool on shrinking, Widget!

I think serpwidgets has some margin for error, but stranger things have happened, right?

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_Homebody_ (Yesterday)

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## Homebody

No.  Wiggles didn't shrink.  I screwed up taking the picture.  In the picture above, the ruler is closer to the camera than the snake is.  That makes it look relatively larger.  Our brains understand this.  The computer's brain doesn't.  So, if you use Serpwidget to get a length on your snake, you need to make sure that the snake and the ruler are the same distance from the camera, as I did when I first tried Serpwidget (pic below).

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*Bogertophis* (Yesterday)

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## Bogertophis

Too bad he didn't shrink...you could have marketed that trick to dieters everywhere, lol.

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_Homebody_ (Yesterday)

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## Snagrio

> Too bad he didn't shrink...you could have marketed that trick to dieters everywhere, lol.


"This snake shrunk three inches in one week with this one simple trick. Veterinarians HATE him!!!"

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_Homebody_ (Yesterday)

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## Bogertophis

> "This snake shrunk three inches in one week with this one simple trick. Veterinarians HATE him!!!"


 :ROFL:   That would come in very handy to keep snakes from outgrowing their enclosures (or their humans, lol).

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_Homebody_ (Yesterday)

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