# Feeders > Breeding Rats >  Rats Keep Dying...

## Wretched Deviant

I keep trying to keep rats as pets, rats as feeders, or breed them. The first time a female I bought as food was pregnant, she seemed healthy, alert, ate well, no sneezing or anything (not tame or anything) but I waited for her to have her babies...she had 13, wow! I woke up the next morning and two were dead, later that night another was dead but I think she dropped her water bottle on it, a day later, another, and another, and another, until only three were left. One more died, I went on vacation and at that time only two were left, my sitter called me and informed me both babies had died, also. Along with my pet rat who was a healthy rat, she said the pet just started racing around her cage suddenly and fell over. After the mother had her babies she started  showing signs of being sick, losing fur, losing weight, wheezing, her eyes became crusted shut, and her nose was filled with bubbles and a lot of porphyrin stains. After all her babies died (the last two were weaned) she started recovering, gaining weight, looking healthier.

She was in with a male and became pregnant again, one day I found her dead. But I try buying rats from different sources, Petco, Petsmart, Petland, and the local exotic store. Half the time the rats end up dying before I can feed them to a snake. The antibiotics are expensive, costing three to four times the rat's price when it's only going to be fed. I keep all the rodents on aspen shavings, they have food and water at all points in time (I check the rodents several times a day), the room is 74 degrees, sometimes a little warmer, there's no draft or excessive moisture. So...what can I do? This is getting really irritating, rats don't even survive a day and I don't understand why. None of my snakes will eat prekilled rats so once they're dead the only option is throwing them out or preparing them for the tegu. They aren't mistreated or given horrible conditions I have the thought that every feeder should be treated like a pet up until the time of feeding.

And, no matter what shop I buy them from they either are or become sick quickly, and I haven't seen any breeders locally or I'd try them.

I went through two pet rats that seemed healthy from Petco several months ago, one just started racing around her cage, hanging on the bars, and suddenly fell over and died. The other I spent a month fighting whatever it was buying antibiotics of all sorts from the vet as he recommended and one day I saw her racing around, then she laid down and started gasping for breath...she died on the way to the vet. I tried using several different antibiotics with her and echinacea mixed in with treats.

I got three rats as feeders, none seemed sick, a day later one was dead.

Before that, I bought four young rats and one adult, the only one who showed signs of being sick was the adult, a week later one of the young ones were dead yet the adult survived for over a month (until a snake ate him).

Does anyone else have this many issues with rats?

----------


## singingtothewheat

This is why I started raising my own.  I kept getting mice that looked like they were sick.  Flea bitten, underfed.   I'm sure if we saw the conditions they come in we'd shiver.  As for you rat, try going someplace else.  Look at the other environmental stuff.  You don't spray a lot of chemicals, or use it in their cages?

I see your from wellington, isn't that by wichita?  They should have several sources

----------


## tomfromtheshade

This sounds to me like an environmental problem.

I would re-examine everything from top to bottom.

1. where are you keeping the rats?
2. is there anything in the room that could be killing them?
3. are you using any chemicals to clean the enclosure?
4. what is the temperature in the room?
5. what are you feeding the rats?
6. could there be anything in their water?

You need to look at everything from start to finish. Rats are notoriously hardy creatures that should not be dying off like flies. Their needs are relatively small and they survive in some very tough conditions.

----------


## suzuki4life

What is your cage setup and how are you cleaning it?

----------


## Wretched Deviant

The only way I clean my cages is with hot water and a little Dawn, the rats have a ten gallon aquarium and then a screen cage with a metal bottom (it's mostly open).

As far as the room goes there's nothing I could notice I have thirty some odd mice, twenty something African soft furs, two gerbils, three leopard geckos, and a tarantula and those all act fine.

The temperature in that room isn't as warm as the rest of the house but it's still comfortable to a person so I figured room temperature, maybe a little warmer.

The rats have a rat feed from Wal Mart, can't remember the name but I mix in extra sunflower seeds, corn, and sometimes oats or grain cereal.

The water here at some times of the year smells so strongly of chlorine that you'd think your bath tub had been filled with water from a pool so I always use filtered water for them, it's just a filter that attaches to my faucet.

It is by Wichita, I've used Tails & Scales (the local exotic store), Petco, Petsmart, Gupton's, one I can't remember the name right off the bat. But the problem is that these rats die within twenty four hours of getting them, when I go to the pet stores they all have rats that look sick, some places I can't even tell if they're alive or dead. I can try getting the healthiest I see but those usually end up dying before the sickest ones. And I want to raise my own, but it's a little hard when all the babies die or the mother died before being able to give birth.

I use aspen shavings that say they're kiln dried.

----------


## cinderbird

> The only way I clean my cages is with hot water and a little Dawn, the rats have a ten gallon aquarium and then a screen cage with a metal bottom (it's mostly open).
> 
> As far as the room goes there's nothing I could notice I have thirty some odd mice, twenty something African soft furs, two gerbils, three leopard geckos, and a tarantula and those all act fine.
> 
> The temperature in that room isn't as warm as the rest of the house but it's still comfortable to a person so I figured room temperature, maybe a little warmer.
> 
> The rats have a rat feed from Wal Mart, can't remember the name but I mix in extra sunflower seeds, corn, and sometimes oats or grain cereal.
> 
> The water here at some times of the year smells so strongly of chlorine that you'd think your bath tub had been filled with water from a pool so I always use filtered water for them, it's just a filter that attaches to my faucet.
> ...


this isn't part of the issue i dont think, but those seed mixes are terrible for rats. They are almost all fats and oil. Feed a rodent block diet, low protein dog food diet or a suebees diet (you can find the recipe online). They cover much more of the nutritional requirements that rodents have. That bird seed is best left for birds. Nuts and seeds can be used sparingly for treats. Nuts they have to get into (peanuts are good) can also be used for enrichment. 

If they are dieing within 24 hours of coming into your home it is environmental. Rats have extremely sensitive respiratory systems. You could be using a chemical that is harming them (fumes from bleach or another household chemical), nail polish remover or something like that perhaps. Ask your family/room mates/whoever else you live with what chemicals they are using. it could be something in the tank you're keeping them in.

Aquariums are VERY bad for rats. The ammonia in their urine builds up and doesn't have a place to go and they breathe it in which exacerbates any issues they have already. Rats need plenty of ventilation, more so than other rodents.

I hope you figure out what the issue is. :/ it seems terrible.

----------


## suzuki4life

how many rats per tank?

are they in direct sunlight?

----------


## Nevadamoon

Moving rats can stress them, and a lot of feeders are mill-bred which will also run you into issues.  Petsmart/Petco get their rats from the same distributor, Petland often uses local dealers, and you'd probably have to ask the others who they used to get the rats.

I know Petco/petland do have a 'return policy' if a rat dies within 14 days (or similar, don't know exactly which.).  If a place has sick rats, assume they're all sick (or at least, been exposed to the illness.).  

I might try finding a local rat breeder off of CL or similar and seeing if you can't get some quality rats from them.  It's weird that all have died so quickly.  You should wait until the females are at least 4-5 months old before breeding them, breeding them too young can result in difficult labor.

----------


## bokuza

Definitely environmental.

I'd like to mention that giving a seed mix to a rat who has never had it before easily can make it hack and joke on the splinters resulting in death. Not fun.
Mice can give respiratory infection to rats. ASFs I don't know about. The amoinia from the urine builds up nastily in tanks. When rats come into new environments they already are pretty vulnerable, I suggest doing a quarantine of all new rats and housing them somewhere else for now.

----------


## alohareptiles

I find some to be great producers and others not...Sometime they do just die...My breeder friend confirms that and depending on your numbers will also determine how much and fast you notice the loss...I've had some feeders pass trying to breed them, but my Dumbo are doing well (except for the Blues, they are WEAK genetic rats and I'm not weaning them out)...Just make sure your husbandry is spot on and keep on going...

----------


## Wretched Deviant

All right, I'll look into some things. We're in a two person household me and my fiancee, he works all the time so I run the house really. But no one uses Bleach, not for clothing, cleaning, anything...I got a high powered steam cleaner for the reptile cages awhile back that just uses water. I don't use makeup or nail polish so I don't have nail polish at all. I use either vinegar or ammonia to mop the floors and Old English to coat the wood and seal cracks. The only cleaning supplies I use otherwise are SOS pads in the kitchen and a cheap version of Windex in the bathroom, everything else is generally a little Dawn and hot water. I actually stopped keeping the rats in aquariums lately, I've only been keeping two to three rats at a time in a cage that's open oh...let me see if I can find a picture of an example...

http://wb7.itrademarket.com/pdimage/..._habitrail.jpg

minus the little up top area I usually keep one rat or two weanlings in that one, 

http://petstuffresale.com/Pet_Stuff/...entCage_lg.jpg

 and I think the one I have is a little bigger but I keep two adults or three weanlings or small adults in that one.

I'm just really confused as far as environmental except the food...I mean there's thirty something mice all with the same type of setups (except they have aquariums or full wire cages) and none of them are sick and the only fatalities have been from rival mothers. All the soft furs were first time mothers so I understand some loss of babies. But other than normal deaths on those they're all healthy. I have one cage in the same room as the mice and other rodents and one in the main part of the house and both cages have fatalities pretty soon after getting them.

And, actually...Petco and Petsmart refuse to do any exchange or return on pet rats or mice. I bought my Gerbils from them, they made me sign a bunch of papers that I was buying this pet and was going to take care of it and so on, these are vets and hotlines to call stuff like that. I bought two female rats and nothing, when they died a couple days later and I tried to return them they said they couldn't do a return for them. I haven't tried Petland because that store has really gotten on my nerves lately. I went in there for the first time in one and a half years and every dog was sick and severly underweight (they looked like they had Parvo), several birds had broken wings, the ferrets were unweaned and too young, and the Leopard Geckos (four of them in one cage) looked like this: 
. 
I'm not sure I want to try buying rats from them, honestly simply from the conditions of other animals for sale there and rats are kept in the back where I can't inspect them before buying. If I had a camera or cell phone with me I would have taken my own pictures to come back later when the manager was in and show him/her. I used to like Petland for that reason that they're generally smaller and would buy local stuff, and I did go in with the idea of getting a couple rats but...they just kind of scared me with all the other animals.

I'll be surfing craigslist to find a breeder, lately I haven't seen many though.

----------


## singingtothewheat

> Definitely environmental.
> 
> I'd like to mention that giving a seed mix to a rat who has never had it before easily can make it hack and joke on the splinters resulting in death. Not fun.
> Mice can give respiratory infection to rats. ASFs I don't know about. The amoinia from the urine builds up nastily in tanks. When rats come into new environments they already are pretty vulnerable, I suggest doing a quarantine of all new rats and housing them somewhere else for now.



And rats can't vomit, so if they become over distended they die.

----------


## dr del

Hi,

Could it be worth trying to completely disinfect the cages you are using for the rats rather than the mild cleaners you are currently using?

Just in case it was something that came in earlier and has managed to hang around?

Is it possible it is something that  is present in the mouse population but doesn't really cause them any problems but quickly affects the rats?

The quarantine idea might help you find that out if you disinfect the cages amd move them to another area. If that rats are fine there but die when introduced to the same area as the mice then you know that is probably the issue.


dr del

----------


## cardell75

> Hi,
> 
> Could it be worth trying to completely disinfect the cages you are using for the rats rather than the mild cleaners you are currently using?
> 
> Just in case it was something that came in earlier and has managed to hang around?
> 
> Is it possible it is something that  is present in the mouse population but doesn't really cause them any problems but quickly affects the rats?
> 
> The quarantine idea might help you find that out if you disinfect the cages amd move them to another area. If that rats are fine there but die when introduced to the same area as the mice then you know that is probably the issue.
> ...


I agree with Dr. Del

I would recommend you go buy a small bottle of bleach and use it (Diluted of course) to completely disinfect the cages, food bowls and water bottle(s) make sure you cover every area and rinse well with hot water untill all of the bleach smell is gone and let them air dry.

Put them in a well ventillated room away from the other rodents, start again and see if that makes a difference at all. 

Also I would pick one place to get rats and stick with it, it can sometimes cause problems getting rats from a bunch of different places.

Personally I think the room temps are a little high for any of the rodents you keep, I keep my facilities at 66-68 degrees due to the higher natural body temps that the rodents have, and I have had great success. If you can get them cooler I think you should.

Can you describe in more detail the symptoms and conditions of the rats when they are sick and when they die? are there any odd marks, area's of missing hair, rings around there eyes, etc...?

----------


## suzuki4life

My rodent building hits the 90's in the summer...it is not temperature related directly...

if the tanks are in the sunlight at all...they become microwaves and will kill pretty much anything very quick.

----------


## suzuki4life

I would never use bleach on an aquarium...it leaves a residue in most cases and of course emits gases....their urine will reactivate it...

use dish soap and plenty of water.

----------


## steveboos

I work at a Petsmart, and if anyone came in with a dead rodent within 14 days or maybe even longer (at managers discresion) we would ask them about husbandry and how they are keeping the rodents. In your situation your doing most everything right, so as long as you still have the reciept and go back to the store you bought them from, they will give you your money back or an exchange.

I do believe your situation is very odd, but i agree with above posters that you should completely disenfect your enclosures and start afresh. I keep all my rats in my garage with a space heater and its always between 66-70 and my rats are doing fine. Even though most are first time mothers, they still never eat any babies or show any signs of health issues. Also i feed mine all 21% rodent block and i don't notice any problems in any of them and i have over 50 rats right now.

----------


## suzuki4life

and you don't want to pour bleach on urine...acids and bases....


it is a neat experiment...

it emits very nasty gases, do it outside only.

----------


## cardell75

Every situation is different, however I use and believe in bleach as a disinfectant and use it regularly in my facilities (Floors), water buckets/lines/valves and to clean/disinfect enclosures, I however do not use aquariums much and all enclosure cleaning occurs outside anyway, it is definately good advice to use any chemicals outside when practical.

----------


## alohareptiles

> Every situation is different, however I use and believe in bleach as a disinfectant and use it regularly in my facilities (Floors), water buckets/lines/valves and to clean/disinfect enclosures, I however do not use aquariums much and all enclosure cleaning occurs outside anyway, it is definately good advice to use any chemicals outside when practical.


I'd follow Chuck's advice...He's a good man and reputable breeder of rats...Gave me many nuggets of wisdom for my anemic rat colony...And a damn nice Lesser too...

----------


## Warocker's Wife

> All right, I'll look into some things. We're in a two person household me and my fiancee, he works all the time so I run the house really. But no one uses Bleach, not for clothing, cleaning, anything...I got a high powered steam cleaner for the reptile cages awhile back that just uses water. I don't use makeup or nail polish so I don't have nail polish at all. I use either vinegar or ammonia to mop the floors and Old English to coat the wood and seal cracks. The only cleaning supplies I use otherwise are SOS pads in the kitchen and a cheap version of Windex in the bathroom, everything else is generally a little Dawn and hot water. I actually stopped keeping the rats in aquariums lately, I've only been keeping two to three rats at a time in a cage that's open oh...let me see if I can find a picture of an example...
> 
> http://wb7.itrademarket.com/pdimage/..._habitrail.jpg
> 
> minus the little up top area I usually keep one rat or two weanlings in that one, 
> 
> http://petstuffresale.com/Pet_Stuff/...entCage_lg.jpg
> 
>  and I think the one I have is a little bigger but I keep two adults or three weanlings or small adults in that one.
> ...


that leo looks like it has crypto (CRYPTOSPORIDIOSIS). 
I wouldnt buy ANYTHING from that store

----------


## alohareptiles

Love that seagull animation Warocker's Wife...Those things are crazy smart sometimes...

----------


## slk

Make sure you aren't spraying anything like Febreeze, those air freshners, they can kill birds.  Do you burn any oils, potporri?  Again, something that may irritate them.  
LK

----------


## BAMReptiles

> Make sure you aren't spraying anything like Febreeze, those air freshners, they can kill birds.  Do you burn any oils, potporri?  Again, something that may irritate them.  
> LK


fabreeze and such doesnt hurt rats, trust me

----------

slk (06-08-2010)

----------

