# Colubrids > Ratsnakes >  Worried about Ma-tsu

## MedusasOwl

Ma-tsu has a vet appointment tomorrow... there's a small squishy lump I don't recognize on the upper third of her body.  Definitely not a good thing.  She's also been real lethargic.  I'm very very worried about my special girl.  :Sad:   Good thoughts, energy, and prayers her way would be much appreciated...

She is eating great though, and I take comfort in that.

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## Perry

I wish you and Ma-tsu good luck tomorrow, hopefully its nothing serious.

Perry.

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## frankykeno

Aww you must be so worried.  Please let us know what the vet finds.  Best wishes, prayers and good thoughts winging her way.

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## kc261

I'd be really scared to find something like that on my snake!  I'll be sending positive vibes your way!  I hope the vet can take care of her!

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## JLC

Oh dear!  Ma-tsu has such a special place in my heart!  I'll say a prayer for her!   :Hug:

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## Shelby

Oh no.. poor Ma-tsu. I hope it's nothing serious. I'm quite fond of the little dragonette myself.

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## Perry

How is Ma-tsu doing?

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## tigerlily

I've been worrying about the poor girl, and hoping her vet appointment went well.  Let us know how things are going?

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## Laooda

Sending my best her way....

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## BMorrison

Good luck! Hope she's ok!

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## missi182

Stay positive :Smile:  Hoping all will go well for you and Ma-tsu, crossing my fingers for you.

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## MedusasOwl

Thank you for the well wishings you guys, we still don't know what Ma-tsu's "nodules" are. There's two of them it turns out very close together that I thought were one lump. They're small and not painful, right where her neck meets her body (basically where her pattern changes). They took some cells or something from them and we'll know more later in the week. 

The good news is that in all other ways -aside from needing desperately to shed- Ma-tsu is a healthy and even ovulating girl!  Heart, lungs, all sound good. She's even gained a little weight. Not that Neptune's getting any action till she's shed and has a clean bill of health of course. I feel a bit cursed in the breeding department as it's always something, but you know me and my scale kid's health always comes first.  I posted a public apology on Myspace to the folks on my hatchling waiting list because stuff like this keeps happening.  Sigh.

She was, as always, a very good girl at the vet. It's been suggested that I give her a bath twice a day for a week to encourage her to shed, which I'm happy to do.  As for the nodules... we'll have to wait and see.

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## kc261

I hope that whatever the tests turn up that it is nothing serious.  Please do keep us updated!

I think that your Ma-tsu and Neptune are really special to a lot of people on this forum.  I know that between them and Jack Spirko's Tai, I've gotten really turned on to the beauty snakes.

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## MedusasOwl

Awh, thank you kc.  :Embarassed:   It means a lot to me to be spreading the beauty love.

In Ma-tsu news, the test came back inconclusive... so to be safe they want to take the nodules out and send the things in for a serious wtf-is-this test. She's set for surgery on the 21st. They're very optimistic though and because the nodules are quite small it should be a relatively minor and simple affair..  :Please:

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## rabernet

Poor Ma-tsu! I hope it's nothing, and it's good that you were so tuned into her that it sounds like you noticed it early!  :Hug:

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## frankykeno

Sending our love and hope that all will be well with her, Sheree.  Please let us know how the surgery goes and what the results come back as.

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## MedusasOwl

Thanks guys, I'll keep you posted!  As it is, she's eating normally and everything so that's good.  No big changes.  We'll see how things go on the 21st.   :Please:

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## cassandra

Oooh...

*send happy blue snake thoughts Ma-tsu's way*
*Ma-tsu just wants people to send actual rats her way  :Razz:   :Snake: *

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## Blu Mongoose

Hope all is good with Ma_tsu.  She's a gorgeous girl. Sending good vibes her way!!

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## MedusasOwl

Thanks guys!  Ma-tsu is recovering well and staying overnight at the vet.  She was none to pleased with them this morning though.

The news is this:  WTF PARASITES??   :Omg: 

It turns out that the tiny bumps are not tumors, but some kind of worm parasite things??  BUGS WTF!  They don't know what they are, so they're sending them to university to find out.  I, naturally, spazzed out at this news since we're so insanely careful and the fecals have been clean.  It was explained to me then that it's not only possible but likely that she's had these things for years long before we got her, and once they know wtf these worm things are we should check out Neptune too (oh, that will be an adventure).  Since they're under the skin and not in the gut, they wouldn't show in a fecal.  

I am SO glad I caught this before we bred them!  Thank God.  :Please:  This is why the Universe has been going "Not yet, not yet, not yet" on our baby VBBs.  I knew there had to be a reason.

Even though this is a horrible revelation, I am incredibly incredibly grateful.  That we won't be unwittingly selling infected hatchlings like their previous owners were, and that our beauties will soon be in better health than they've ever been.  I really feel looked out for in this.  Things have kept coming up to stymie our breeding plans, over and over, and then I just happen to catch this very little thing on a very long snake.  Not to mention nasty as parasites are, I'd rather this than a tumor on my poor gal!

In any case, I'll keep you guys updated when we find out for sure what these little nasties are and what we're going to do about it.

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## frankykeno

While I'm certainly glad for you that this isn't a cancerous disease, you must be just shocked at this parasitic deal.  Please let us know what they are and what the deal is to clear her of them.  Hoping that Neptune doesn't have them but I know they were housed together for ages by their previous owner so that's not great odds really.

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## MedusasOwl

Yeah, I'm sure he has them too, whatever they are.  :/  Poor things.    We'd had them checked for anything fecal before, but this stealth skin parasite thing has completely floored me.  I knew they weren't in the best of conditions before, but this... geez, wtf.  I thought we'd totally brought these two up to code.  Ugh.  

It feels like it's always something, these days.  This is definitely bad news, but after losing Cleo so recently there's part of me that just wants to sob in relief that it's nothing fatal.  I couldn't deal with losing Ma-tsu right now, I really couldn't.  I'm glad to do whatever it takes to put her and Neptune at 100% healthy and clean.

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## MedusasOwl

Karen put it best; we're basically gawking in horrified relief.

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## MelissaFlipski

Wow.  I am so sorry to hear about that, but also so relieved that they figured out what the lumps were.  How big were they?  

It's funny that I ran across this thread while I am trying to rehab a black rat snake w/ a lump.  I still don't know what it is....

Wishing you and Ma-tsu all the best.

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## kc261

> Karen put it best; we're basically gawking in horrified relief.


I know exactly what you mean.  I think that is an exact description of me reading your update!

I am SO glad to hear that it isn't anything cancerous or otherwise life-threatening.  I have heard of worm-things that can live under the skin, but I don't think I've heard of it in snakes before.  Interesting, in a really yucky sort of way.

Good for you for being an observant enough snake keeper to find these things!

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## Shelby

Yuck.. wonder what kind of worms do that. Nasty. I'm interested to hear what they find out about it.

Glad it's not something worse though.  :Smile:

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## MelissaFlipski

I have been in touch with a timber rattlesnake rehabber in NY and she was wondering if the lump in the black rat snake's neck that I am attempting to rehab is a bott fly maggot.  But it does not look that way.

Did they say what it could be (any guess before results form the University)?

Bott flies lay their eggs inside the skin.  It hatches into a maggot that eats some of the surrounding flesh and skin. The skin around dies away, the maggot comes out and goes from pupa to fly.  The animal recovers, losing some skin, etc. around the area.

I am glad you caught it early, whatever it is.  And good luck!!

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## MedusasOwl

The current theory is that Ma-tsu and Neptune were wild caught (or kept with wild caught) and have always had them (or just Ma-tsu, but I'd be surprised if Neptune doesn't need treatment too), it just wasn't obvious.  Poor things!  Once we get this taken care of, they'll be better than they've ever been!

They said that the worms *look* kinda like small dead tape worms  :Omg:   They showed them to me, and they do.  I thought tape worms were a gut parasite, but apparently not necessarily all the time. They're not sure though, hence the testing.  *shudder*  Poor baby...  She said normally tape worms are "lively" but these didn't move at all.  It's possible all the parasites they have are dead ones, which... I don't even know what that means.  Guess we'll find out.

But they're definitely worm-things of some kind.

Watch them discover some new species of parasite from Myanmar or something.  Our pets never get sick in normal ways, it's always something bizarre like giant bladder stones or random off and on diabetes.   :Slam head:   But from what I saw and was told, sounds like dead tapeworms... which is still pretty freaking weird.  And gross.

I'll keep you posted!  It may be the same thing with the black ratsnake, Melissa.  As I always obsessively read up on things that are or might be affecting my animals (even if it squicks me, ugh) this DOES sound a lot like what Ma-tsu has: 

_Symptoms of tapeworm infection differ according to the location of cysts formed in the body. And symptoms may not occur for months, or even years after infection. In some cases, there are no symptoms.  Cysticerci in muscles may cause no symptoms but can form lumps under the skin._

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## MelissaFlipski

Sheree,
Wow.  That is GROSS - but I am so glad you are getting it taken care of.  I was hoping I could glean some information from your experience b/c I just don't know what that lump is on the black rat snake.

How big were the lumps - or how big were the two of them together?  The lump on the BRS is about dime-sized and 3/16" in the middle, tapering off to the sides.

How is Ma-tsu doing now?  She is back home, right?

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## MedusasOwl

Yes, it is very very gross.  She is home now with little blue stitches.  I thought it was cute of the vet to use blue stitches on her.  I may take a pic when I check to make sure it's doing ok, but I don't want to bother her right now, poor sweetie.  

That sounds pretty close, Ma-tsu's little lump was a little bit smaller than that but the worm things seem to vary in size, so it could still be that.  The two they removed, one was bigger than the other.  Our vet could tell there was two nodules by feeling it, but they felt like one to me.   :Confused2: 

The "up" side  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  if it IS tapeworms is that it's very hard to transfer.   So unless they got fed rats with the nasty things it may be possible Neptune doesn't have any. If they were wild caught, then it's a coin toss.  I need to give him a good feeling up, which he hates, but I can't think of any obvious lumps he has off the top of my head.  I shouldn't be overthinking this till I hear back on what these things are for sure, but I can't seem to help it.  :Weirdface:

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## Perry

Glad to hear Ma-tsu's surgery was a success. Hopefully she recover's great and that you find out exactly what those little buggers are. Also I hope Neptune doesn't have them either. Good luck with both of them!

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## MedusasOwl

Ma-tsu is recovering nicely, btw.  :Smile:   Still waiting to hear back on the bugs... I haven't noticed any bumps on Neptune but I'm gonna have the vet help me check him over after we know what it is Ma-tsu's got.

I took a real quick snapshot of her stitches while I was checking for swelling or anything else I should be panicking about.  Kinda fuzzy, but she was very "Noooo, I doooon't waaaaannaaaa...  :Disbelief: " squirmy and sulky and just wanted to be left alone.  Looks good, healing nice, and one quick pic then she went back to her nap.  Poor sweetie.

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## MelissaFlipski

Awww.  Poor girl.  It's always sad to see stitches.  But I am glad the buggers are out.  I hope she is back to her normal self as soon as can be.  Good catch on that one, btw.   :Good Job:   You care for your snakes well!

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## kc261

Good to hear Ma-tsu is recovering.

I'm not sure I'd ever seen such a close-up pic of a VBB before.  Those very pointy scales are nifty looking!  So different from a BPs.  I also don't remember noticing it when I held a Taiwan Beauty at a pet store or a Trinket at a show.  Is it unique to the VBBs or am I just not observant?  Or maybe it was because both of the ones I held were youngsters.

Thanks again for sharing these beauties with all of us.

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## MedusasOwl

Thank you, still waiting to hear back on the bugs!  I asked today while making an appointment for one of my rabbits because _it's always something_.   :Crazy: 

Yes, I'm pretty sure Taiwans have similarly shaped scales, but I don't tend to notice how pointy they are when I'm handling my snakes either.  Photos are cool like that, make us notice things we didn't before.  I notice the texture more during handling.  Every reptile show I go to I'm amazing at how _soft_ the Retics are!  And yes, I cuddle a baby retic at virtually every show.  :Love: 

Here's a couple of older nice close-ups of Ma-tsu scales while she's in the blue. A friend got permission to use of the first one as a dragon scale icon for an RPG she's doing.  :Wink:   snake scale close-ups fascinate me, I wish I had the patience to do them justice art wise.

http://www.bluegorgon.com/matsuwallpaper3.bmp
http://www.bluegorgon.com/matsuwallpaper2.bmp

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## MelissaFlipski

Gorgeous pictures!  The shape of the scales is great!

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## kc261

Those close up pics are awesome!  The contrast of textures between the pointy scales and the mist droplets is just wow.

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## Shelby

'In the blue' indeed! Great pics there.

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## MedusasOwl

Thank you.  :Smile: 

Well, it's official:  It's tape worms.  Now we're basically waiting on a decision amongst the vets on how to treat it.  There's a shot that should take care of it, but they're not 100% that it's ok to use with reptiles and wonder if it's better to try and find and cut all of them out.   :Weirdface:   I'm hoping the anti-tapeworm shot turns out to be a safe way to go... anybody else have experience with this?

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## Blu Mongoose

Hope all goes well. Glad to hear she's on her way to recovery.
Let us know how it goes with the tape worm treatment

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## Shelby

Wow weird that tapeworms made a cyst-like thing like that. I guess an oral dewormer wouldn't work in that case then, huh?

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## MelissaFlipski

Wow.  I have no idea about the shots.  Can you ask more herp vets' opinions?  Or find an expert via the internet?  Good luck!

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## MedusasOwl

Yeah, no oral dewormer.  They decided to do the shot, and that would take care of even the ones we can't find.  She has an appointment next Tuesday.  Thoughts and prayers for my special girl are most appreciated!

 :Please: 

On top of this... Daphne needs dental work.  FUN!   :Tears:   Urgh.  They're so worth it though.  Every one of the little monsters.

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## Laooda

Keeping my fingers crossed for her!  :Smile: 

 I'm sure she'll be just fine!

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## Schlyne

> Wow.  I have no idea about the shots.  Can you ask more herp vets' opinions?  Or find an expert via the internet?  Good luck!



Good luck, and maybe post on multiple forums?  I remember reading a post about someone's GTP on a different forum that had to have surgery to remove parasite lumps like this.  I don't recall what else was done to treat it, or what the worms ended up being.

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## kc261

> Good luck, and maybe post on multiple forums?  I remember reading a post about someone's GTP on a different forum that had to have surgery to remove parasite lumps like this.  I don't recall what else was done to treat it, or what the worms ended up being.


Posting on multiple forums is a good idea.  You may or may not get any information that will be useful to you at this point, as it sounds like you have the problem identified and under control now.  However sharing the information may end up being very useful to someone else who encounters the same or similar situation.

Sheree, were you able to determine if Neptune has any of the worms?  Are you going to give him a shot too?  I'm sure Ma-tsu will be happier once all the nasties are gone!

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## MedusasOwl

Neptune appears to be clean, but I want to take him in and have the vet help me check.  Thanks guys!  I'm always intimidated by posting on Fauna, but I'll ask a few of my LJ comms too.

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## MelissaFlipski

Good luck with your research and her shot, if she gets it.  Keep us posted.  She'll be in our thoughts, as well as you!

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## MedusasOwl

I asked on the snake LJ comm, and feel very reassured. I adore and trust my vet, just this is such alien territory you know?  I needed the extra info/coddling.  I feel good about Tuesday.   :Smile:  Thanks again you guys!  Ma-tsu will be good as new in no time.

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## frankykeno

Sheree, I did some googling for you on tapeworm cysts.  Apparently this is the larval stage of the tapeworm that forms these cysts.  This is how I saw them described at one site..."cysts are an oblong, semi-clear, fluid-filled sac with a white spot head at one end".

http://home.austarnet.com.au/wormman/wltape.htm

Google "tapeworm cysts" hon, there's a ton of sites out there with all sorts of information including things like frogs can pass these eggs to snakes, as well as deer mice and so forth.  Very interesting stuff (loads of PDF's).

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## MedusasOwl

*shudders*  Bwah...  :Omg:   Good find, Jo!  All the ones I'd found only mentioned mammals.  Some tough reading though, gives me the heebie jeebies.   :Bolt: 

Urgh, everything I find half say surgery half say injections.  But, if the medication doesn't do it (not sure how we'll tell, I guess more feeling her up) we can always do surgery later!  Seems like going the injection route first will be less stressful on her.  *crosses fingers*!

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## MelissaFlipski

> ... things like frogs can pass these eggs to snakes, as well as deer mice and so forth.  Very interesting stuff (loads of PDF's).


One more good reason not to feed wild mice to our snakes.  Just made me think about some of the questions out there on that.
Thanks!

Good luck, Sheree.  I am glad you feel better about the shot.  Also, it does seem less invasive than surgery.

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## frankykeno

> *shudders*  Bwah...   Good find, Jo!  All the ones I'd found only mentioned mammals.


Yep it did take some digging to come up with anything other than the typical carnivore passes eggs in feces, herbivore eats egg infested grass, cysts form in herbivore, carnivore eats herbivore and the adults develop cycle.  Those studies and articles though say this does happen in cold blooded creatures like snakes, fish, etc.  Hopefully they will help you make decisions or at least better understand what's going on here.

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## MedusasOwl

Update!

Ma-tsu was an angel as usual for the vet (I love watching her hog-tie my favorite vet-tech, lol), and she got her first shot.  I forgot to ask what exact species of tapeworm it is, and I don't remember the name of the drug.  But in my defense I've been adjusting to a new sleep schedule (again) and have spread myself a bit thin, so brain stoppage happens.   :Rolleyes2:  But I plan to ask Friday when I call; the middle of the week our vet is closed so they can be open for people on the weekends.

BUT she is doing very well, stitches healing up nice but still in for now.  The doc wants to get them out before she sheds, but she'd like to wait another week or so.  Ma-tsu's not close enough to shed for it to be a worry.

She gets a second shot in a couple of weeks.  Our vet said that we shouldn't be seeing any bugs, her body should absorb them as foreign protein. 

She's pretty popular over there now, btw.  Like our lil Unut monster - so adorable and well behaved who can resist em?   :Smile:

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## MelissaFlipski

I'm glad things are going well with her treatment.  What dedication!  I hope you get a few naps in this weekend!  Don't worry about us; we'll still here when you get back.   :Hug:

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## MedusasOwl

Thank you!  She's such a trooper.   :Love:

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## STORMS

Sending positive thoughts her way!!! She'll be in my prayers!

Good luck.

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## cassandra

Oh good...I miss hearing how all creatures, scaley, furry or not, are over at Blue Gorgon. Hugs to all!  :Smile:

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## MedusasOwl

Awh  :Hug:  Thanks Cassandra!  I know I've been slacktastic at posting over here, but I'm tryin ta keep up!   :Embarassed:   We're doin pretty good over here other than the tape worms and deep desire to move somewhere else.   :Smile:  

Lil Irwin did have a great escape though and we've yet to figure out how he did it. It was still sealed up and everything!  Very Houdini, but he's back where he should be and eating like a a good lol rubber boa!  His little tub is now inside a huge tub incase he pulls it off again, I know he can't scale that thing!

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## frankykeno

Glad to hear she's doing well, Sheree.  I finally got to hold a good sized Blue Beauty at the BHB visit I went on.  I think I now completely understand your fascination with them.  What gorgeous and unique looking snakes they are!

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## MedusasOwl

I envy you that visit, Jo!  :Very Happy:   I plan to get more beauties from BHB when we're ready!  Aren't they amazing?  I am so obsessed!

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