# Other Pets > Dogs >  New Year's Puppies

## Jyson

There are 8 pups total, all black and white, 1 dark brown and white. They are Austrailian Shepard/Catahoula/Border Collie mix. She had them yesterday, and this will be her second (and last) litter. I'm really looking forward to seeing which ones will be long hair, and which ones will have blue eye(s).

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## Stewart_Reptiles

I love the miniature cow  :sploosh:  on the right with the white head : (first pic)

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_Jyson_ (01-03-2010)

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## Jyson

> I love the miniature cow  on the right with the white head : (first pic)


Me too!  :Very Happy:  You can see a heart on its side (on the first pic.) I have a feeling that one is going to have two blue eyes.

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## joepythons

Cool looking puppies  :Good Job:

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_Jyson_ (01-03-2010)

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## ballpythonluvr

They are so cute Jason!  Momma is very beautiful also!

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_Jyson_ (01-03-2010)

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## Jyson

Here's some more pics.

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## Repfanaticlady28

I love it when people claim to love dogs and then produce mutts when there's TONS of homeless pets in shelters and rescues everywhere. NOW I remember why I don't look at this section. Don't care if I rained on your parade either. People need to get their freakin heads out of the clouds, or wherever else they may be.

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_catawhat75_ (01-05-2010),Jamie-n-Heith (01-05-2010)

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## Jyson

> I love it when people claim to love dogs and then produce mutts when there's TONS of homeless pets in shelters and rescues everywhere. NOW I remember why I don't look at this section. Don't care if I rained on your parade either. People need to get their freakin heads out of the clouds, or wherever else they may be.


Wow, you must be like super smart or something.  :Good Job: 

I'm not going to dive too deeply on this situation, but in short..Not everyone who breeds dogs are careless. As I stated on an older thread I believe, we make sure to find good homes for all of them, and if we can't find a good, loving home we keep them. And I also stated that, this is also her last litter, after this she's getting fix.

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## CoolioTiffany

They are so adorable!  Good luck with raising those puppies, they look fantastic!  I have an Australian Shepherd mix, but he looks more German Shepherd (his other half) and his body type is more German Shepherd-looking.

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_Jyson_ (01-03-2010)

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## Repfanaticlady28

> I'm not going to dive too deeply on this situation, but in short..Not everyone who breeds dogs are careless.


No need to dive anywhere. Allowing mutts to breed in this already overpopulated country equals careless. Good for you! You are finding good homes for the puppies that shouldn't have even been produced so now those families will not adopt the homeless dogs/puppies in shelters. I bet you're not getting the puppies spayed/neutered before they go to new homes (contracts are not a guarantee). Yay! Thousands more accidental litters helping to fill up animal shelters even more.



> And I also stated that, this is also her last litter, after this she's getting fix.


Congratulations on finally figuring it out. Too bad it's 2 litters too late. If you had gotten her fixed before her first heat then I'd commend you. Now you could be dealing with some major health issues because you allowed her to breed. No commendation for that. Play it however you want to make yourself feel better. I know how it really is. I've been to high kill shelters many times over. You obviously have no idea where the dogs that don't find homes go or you could just care less. Since you and many others on this forum think they're not your problem and keep adding to it I, and many others like me, have a lot of work to do. Thank you very much! Have fun with your puppies. I hope I don't see them in the shelter someday.

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_catawhat75_ (01-05-2010)

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## CoolioTiffany

> No need to dive anywhere. Allowing mutts to breed in this already overpopulated country equals careless. Good for you! You are finding good homes for the puppies that shouldn't have even been produced so now those families will not adopt the homeless dogs/puppies in shelters. I bet you're not getting the puppies spayed/neutered before they go to new homes (contracts are not a guarantee). Yay! Thousands more accidental litters helping to fill up animal shelters even more.
> 
> Congratulations on finally figuring it out. Too bad it's 2 litters too late. If you had gotten her fixed before her first heat then I'd commend you. Now you could be dealing with some major health issues because you allowed her to breed. No commendation for that. Play it however you want to make yourself feel better. I know how it really is. I've been to high kill shelters many times over. You obviously have no idea where the dogs that don't find homes go or you could just care less. Since you and many others on this forum think they're not your problem and keep adding to it I, and many others like me, have a lot of work to do. Thank you very much! Have fun with your puppies. I hope I don't see them in the shelter someday.


You don't have to be rude about this.  I'm sure he'll get these puppies to good homes and have none of them ending up in the pound.  A person breeding mutts isn't considered careless.  There are people who breed pure breds and are careless to the point the puppies get skinny and have external/internal parasites.  Everyone is different, but I'm sure many people who breed their dogs aren't careless.  There are people who breed snakes that are careless to what happens to those snakes by selling them to pet stores, just like there are people who give their dogs to pounds.  I think it was best for you to not comment if you did not like this thread.

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_Jyson_ (01-04-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (01-04-2010)

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## joepythons

> I love it when people claim to love dogs and then produce mutts when there's TONS of homeless pets in shelters and rescues everywhere. NOW I remember why I don't look at this section. Don't care if I rained on your parade either. People need to get their freakin heads out of the clouds, or wherever else they may be.


A little bit rude are we  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ? Why not just avoid these threads if you can not be nice next time  :Weirdface:

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_Jyson_ (01-04-2010)

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## DutchHerp

I think Repfanaticlady28 is being a tad rude, but I do agree with her statements.

Later, Matt

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## Jyson

> No need to dive anywhere. Allowing mutts to breed in this already overpopulated country equals careless. Good for you! You are finding good homes for the puppies that shouldn't have even been produced so now those families will not adopt the homeless dogs/puppies in shelters. I bet you're not getting the puppies spayed/neutered before they go to new homes (contracts are not a guarantee). Yay! Thousands more accidental litters helping to fill up animal shelters even more.
> 
> Congratulations on finally figuring it out. Too bad it's 2 litters too late. If you had gotten her fixed before her first heat then I'd commend you. Now you could be dealing with some major health issues because you allowed her to breed. No commendation for that. Play it however you want to make yourself feel better. I know how it really is. I've been to high kill shelters many times over. You obviously have no idea where the dogs that don't find homes go or you could just care less. Since you and many others on this forum think they're not your problem and keep adding to it I, and many others like me, have a lot of work to do. Thank you very much! Have fun with your puppies. I hope I don't see them in the shelter someday.


First off, I don't disagree with what you are saying, but you are not going about this the right way. Being very rude, and making assumptions doesn't help your arguement. 

Actually, yes we do get the puppies fix, and we get them their shots too. :Surprised:  Along with that we check on the dogs every few months to make sure they are being taken care of, if they are not, then we take the dog back and refund their money (as it states in the contract.) Also before we even put any of the pups in the new owners hands, we make sure that the environment they are being place in is suitable to their needs.




> You obviously have no idea where the dogs that don't find homes go or you could just care less.


Actually yes I do.  :Omfg:  I've even seen what happens to animals when are under the care and supervision of an abusive owner. Which is why we go out of our way to make sure that every single animal that we give away adopt out/sell etc. is being care for and loved.

There is always a right way and a wrong way to go about things. Anyone can spit your arguement back at anyone who bred their pets, even someone who is breeding their snakes. So if you have such a problem with this, then why don't you make your own thread and rant all about it.

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## Swingline0.0.1

While I can understand your argument, not everybody wants a puppy from a shelter.

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_CoolioTiffany_ (01-04-2010)

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## GoingPostal

Better bet is getting all the puppies microchipped so if they do end up in a shelter you get notified.  Only 1 in 4 dogs end up in it's first home, too many people move or have a baby or just plain don't think a dog matters that much, they'll just get another.  I'm sure whoever bred my dogs thought their buyers were great owners too.  One got rehomed on Craigslist due to a move and the other ended up in a kill shelter with no one to claim him.  

In the past 4 months I've fostered 3 mixed breed puppies, one the local vet even recognized because the buyers had brought her in several times, didn't care enough to come pick her up at the pound though.  I just don't see the point in breeding more pet quality dogs and mutts,  4 million dogs put down every year isn't enough?  Not like anyone that wanted a mutt couldn't find one without you adding to it.

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_catawhat75_ (01-05-2010),Jamie-n-Heith (01-05-2010),Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## starrlamia

Sorry but breeding mutts=irresponsible.
35 million dogs die every year in shelters.

And Im glad you find them good homes... Do you have contracts stating you will take the dogs back should the owners ever need to get rid of them?
Did you health test your dogs to ensure you are not passing on genetic diseases? (hip and elbow testing, eyes and ears? whatever else is relevant to your breeds of dogs?)
Did you title your dogs to prove that they are of breeding quality? That they possess more traits then being a nice dog that can be passed down to the pups ?

Sorry. But when millions of dogs die every year in shelters, I cannot sit back and let people who breed irresponsibly think they are not doing something wrong.

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_catawhat75_ (01-05-2010),Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## CoolioTiffany

> Sorry but breeding mutts=irresponsible.
> 35 million dogs die every year in shelters.
> 
> And Im glad you find them good homes... Do you have contracts stating you will take the dogs back should the owners ever need to get rid of them?
> Did you health test your dogs to ensure you are not passing on genetic diseases? (hip and elbow testing, eyes and ears? whatever else is relevant to your breeds of dogs?)
> Did you title your dogs to prove that they are of breeding quality? That they possess more traits then being a nice dog that can be passed down to the pups ?
> 
> Sorry. But when millions of dogs die every year in shelters, I cannot sit back and let people who breed irresponsibly think they are not doing something wrong.


I'm sure Jyson didn't breed irresponsibly.  Wanna hear of a _real_ irresponsible breeding?

My oldest dog, Max, was bred from a guy who bred his German Shepherd and Australian Shepherd together.  My oldest sister really wanted a dog, and my mom said she could get one when she has straight A's.  She got the straight A's, and went almost everywhere in town looking for a dog.  She did not like any of the dogs she saw, until my mom brought her to the guy's house who bred the two dogs.  There were two puppies left, chained tightly to the fence.  The mother was also chained to the fence.  To the point they could barely go anywhere.  My sister picked the puppy she liked, and we took him home.  We took him to the vet because Max was infested with fleas.  Today, Max is turning 14 on January 13.  He is a very healthy dog and still likes to act like a puppy sometimes.  Jyson doesn't have his dogs and puppies infested with fleas and chained to a fence outside.  So if you think Jyson is breeding irresponsibly, that statement is wrong.

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_Jyson_ (01-04-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (01-04-2010)

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## CoolioTiffany

> While I can understand your argument, not everybody wants a puppy from a shelter.


Puppies and dogs from shelters can have kennel cough.  Three dogs of mine have had it, and Max almost died from it at age 9 because my dog Buddy had it.  My other dog Lily had it so we did not introduce her to Buddy until it was completely gone, we didn't want any of our dogs getting kennel cough again.  It is a definite nightmare.  Max got it real bad--he was throwing up a lot, pooping/peeing everywhere, had snot everywhere.. it was just horrible.  That's one of the main reason why it isn't that great to get a dog from a shelter, even though you are giving a dog a new home and stuff, sometimes it's not worth it if the dog can die from kennel cough.

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_Jyson_ (01-06-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (01-04-2010)

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## Jt.

> I love it when people claim to love dogs and then produce mutts when there's TONS of homeless pets in shelters and rescues everywhere. NOW I remember why I don't look at this section. Don't care if I rained on your parade either. People need to get their freakin heads out of the clouds, or wherever else they may be.


x2

And I don't think you're being rude about it. Life isn't all cotton candy and gumdrops. This is REALITY.

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Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## Jt.

> Puppies and dogs from shelters can have kennel cough.  Three dogs of mine have had it, and Max almost died from it at age 9 because my dog Buddy had it.  My other dog Lily had it so we did not introduce her to Buddy until it was completely gone, we didn't want any of our dogs getting kennel cough again.  It is a definite nightmare.  Max got it real bad--he was throwing up a lot, pooping/peeing everywhere, had snot everywhere.. it was just horrible.  That's one of the main reason why it isn't that great to get a dog from a shelter, even though you are giving a dog a new home and stuff, sometimes it's not worth it if the dog can die from kennel cough.


Puppies and dogs from anywhere can have anything. It's not only an animal shelter problem. 

Dogs from reckless breedings can have loads of defects that can't be cured. That's why breedings shouldn't be done without the proper health testing.

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## Jyson

> Sorry but breeding mutts=irresponsible.
> 35 million dogs die every year in shelters.
> 
> And Im glad you find them good homes... 
> Did you health test your dogs to ensure you are not passing on genetic diseases? (hip and elbow testing, eyes and ears? whatever else is relevant to your breeds of dogs?)
> Did you title your dogs to prove that they are of breeding quality? That they possess more traits then being a nice dog that can be passed down to the pups ?
> 
> Sorry. But when millions of dogs die every year in shelters, I cannot sit back and let people who breed irresponsibly think they are not doing something wrong.


Yep, a local vet comes once a year to do checkups on our horses and our dogs. All clean bills of healthiness. :Wink: 

A majority of the people who adopted the pups from the last litter were farmers looking for a good herding dog or two. And the pups (breed-wise) are perfect for the job. As for traits, they definitely live up to their breeds: smart as a border collie, hyper as a catahoula, and chases anything that moves just like an austrailian shepard.  :Very Happy: 



> Do you have contracts stating you will take the dogs back should the owners ever need to get rid of them?


Yep, a friend of ours who owns a rescuing facility that helped us find good homes for our first litter typed up the contracts. She's been adopting out animals for years and had over that time perfected a detailed contract.

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## aaramire

I agree with Brook. I do not understand why anyone would ever breed or buy dogs when there are so many dying every day in shelters.

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_catawhat75_ (01-05-2010),Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## joepythons

If you people want to ride the OP behind because he bred his dogs.Why not speak up to the pet stores that sell mutts as $2000 designer breeds? These idiots are buying mixed breed dogs for idiotic prices instead of rescueing one from the pound  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .Now back to our forum  :Very Happy:

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## CoolioTiffany

> I agree with Brook. I do not understand why anyone would ever breed or buy dogs when there are so many dying every day in shelters.


I think another major thing that has to do with that is people not finding the right dog when they visit shelters.  Some people want pure bred dogs, or nice looking mutts, and dogs that have a clean record.  Clean record meaning no abuse, no parasites, etc.  People are weird with Pit Bulls, since they are claimed to be born "fighters" when of course they are not, so they won't buy one from a shelter if they think it won't get along with the family or other family pets if it was used for fighting.  The point is that some people want to get their dogs from top quality breeders so they have a nice dog without a bad history and know it came from someone with top notch breeding dogs.  

People are starting to build non-kill shelters (these shelters are HUGE too, and have parts where the separate the new dogs from the already established dogs that got over sicknesses and got rid of parasites) so the dogs don't have to die, and so that most will get a good home.

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## catawhat75

> If you people want to ride the OP behind because he bred his dogs.Why not speak up to the pet stores that sell mutts as $2000 designer breeds? These idiots are buying mixed breed dogs for idiotic prices instead of rescueing one from the pound .Now back to our forum



We do. Against pet stores, the Hunte Corp, Amish puppy mills, backyard breeders and the morons who create a new "designer dog" every other day etc...

At least he hasn't named them Austrialian Border Houlas  :Wink:

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Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## catawhat75

And didn't she just have the other litter back in August??? That is in NO way, shape or form a responsible thing to do. It is hard enough for the female to have a litter every year but twice in one year. DISGUSTING!

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Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## sekaiNdobes

I'll just say this.... for a site that is so incredibly particular about where snakes come from and how they're kept (I agree totally, BTW).... there sure are a lot of irresponsibly bred, BYB, totally unwarranted litters of dogs that are welcomed with open arms.

Here, I'll make a comparison that might be understood.  Buying from a BYB is like buying a skinny hatchling from Petco.  Supporting a BYB's decision to breed untested, untitled mixed breed dogs with no purpose other than to be pets is like *supporting* Petco's sale of skinny hatchlings.

Not all shelter dogs are ill - in fact, most are healthy.  Kennel cough really isn't a big deal, as long as it's treated correctly.  If kennel cough is someone's main excuse for not considering a shelter dog... yeesh.

I may be poo-pooed for this post... I have one snake, nothing fancy or pretty, just a plain, normal rescue.  I know enough to keep him happy and healthy.... but I don't know nearly as much about BPs that many members here do.

What I DO know is dogs.... and this isn't the first time I've noticed the double standard regarding dogs here.  

Perhaps I'm just a "snooty show person", but rest assured that the two show dogs I do own have extensively health tested parents and grandparents (and beyond) - and my dogs have health testing of their own.  They are pets first and foremost, but they are also performance dogs with correct temperaments and very specific breeding.  My corgi is from a health tested,  stockdog-bred performance pedigree.  And our 2nd corgi is on the way, 3 weeks old - from a fully health tested, responsible bred litter specifically brought into this world for performance and conformation.  

Notice a trend?  Extensive health testing, and from litters bred with a purpose in mind... not untested pets, bred to see what fun colors come out.  Perhaps that's how it's done in snakes, but there's a lot more to dog breeding that having fun with color.

Just my two cents.

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_aaramire_ (01-06-2010),_Calift_ (01-08-2010),Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## sekaiNdobes

PS -

Most of the hardcore herding folk I know get their herding dogs from proven, potent herding lines... not mixes from their neighbors.  But I suppose they're snooty working folk.   :Wink:

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_aaramire_ (01-06-2010),Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## sekaiNdobes

PSS - 

As far as health testing on these puppies.... basing what I know of the three breeds in their makeup, I'd expect the following tests:

OFA Hips
OFA Elbows
Shoulder consult
BAER
Holter (performed annually, and before each planned litter)
annual CERF
TNS test
annual thyroid panel (through MSU or other OFA accepted lab)
Optigen (for collie eye anomaly)
MDS screening through WSU VCPL

And no, these tests are not included in yearly checkups.   :Wink:

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_aaramire_ (01-06-2010),_Calift_ (01-08-2010),Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## CoolioTiffany

> PSS - 
> 
> As far as health testing on these puppies.... basing what I know of the three breeds in their makeup, I'd expect the following tests:
> 
> OFA Hips
> OFA Elbows
> Shoulder consult
> BAER
> Holter (performed annually, and before each planned litter)
> ...


A dog wouldn't need those tests if it's very healthy.  Some people like to feed their dogs dinner scraps which posses a higher risk for things to come later when the dog is old, but if the dog is walked each day, fed the right amount, never really fed scraps, active, brushed, bathed, etc. (which most people are willing to do those things for their dog(s)) I don't see the need for any of those tests.  Though, the reasons why I wouldn't personally want to own a dog is:
-Have to do extra hard work to keep it healthy
-Pay expensive vet bills
-Get it shots
-Feed it everyday
-Let it outside
-Clean up the crap
-Clean up the puke
-Walk it
-Train it so it actually listens

I'm not a dog person at all, but I do find dogs to be very adorable.  I just don't have the desire to own one when I'm on my own.  It's just going to be me and the reptiles.  That's all.  I don't need anything else to satisfy myself.  Snakes are 100x easier to care for IMO :Razz:  :Very Happy:  :Good Job:

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## Swingline0.0.1

I really tried not to comment on this post, but it is ridiculous to berate the OP like you have. Do any of you people that posted badly about this have kids? If so, are they all adopted? If the answer is no, then why not? There are millions of children that need a good home, and are in orphanages. Think that sounds crazy? So does making a big deal when somebody shows you the beautiful puppies they have.

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Muze (01-15-2010),_West Coast Jungle_ (01-06-2010)

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## starrlamia

> A dog wouldn't need those tests if it's very healthy.  Some people like to feed their dogs dinner scraps which posses a higher risk for things to come later when the dog is old, but if the dog is walked each day, fed the right amount, never really fed scraps, active, brushed, bathed, etc. (which most people are willing to do those things for their dog(s)) I don't see the need for any of those tests.  Though, the reasons why I wouldn't personally want to own a dog is:
> -Have to do extra hard work to keep it healthy
> -Pay expensive vet bills
> -Get it shots
> -Feed it everyday
> -Let it outside
> -Clean up the crap
> -Clean up the puke
> -Walk it
> ...


Are you kidding me? Wow. Health checks Should be done on EVERY dog no matter if they are deemed healthy by your vet or not. You cannot see if you are passing on some genetic problems. Dogs with hip dysplasia arent always bad enough to show symptoms, but that doesnt mean it should be bred. 
What constitutes a good food to feed your dog anyway in your opinion?

Are your dog working farm dogs? I cant see a farmer who wants a true working dog, esp a herding dog buying an unproven puppy. NVM are all of the people you sold puppies to aware of the fact that border collies need a job and can be extremely neurotic and distructive if they are not given adequate amounts of exercise?

Honestly there is absolutely no way you can justify this litter of dogs, if you dont have health testing (not vet checks) and proven working ability they are like every other mutt on the planet, great pets but adding to the overpopulation problem.

BTW reputable shelters and rescues are not full of sick animals. If the animals are sick they are being treated. Kennel cough is not generally a big deal unless you are dealing with an animal with a supressed immune system. Plus, you can find pure breds in shelters, about half of all shelter dogs are purebreds.

Do you want to read a thread which I think encompasses why people are so passionate about irresponsible breeding?

http://pitbullforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27224

And one last thing. Seka- thank you. I doubt most of the people on here would buy a random snake from their next door neighbour who thought it would be cute and fun to have baby snakes and to make a quick buck.

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_aaramire_ (01-06-2010),Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## RichsBallPythons

Both sides are very VALID points.

Shelters for one have a huge ass book you have to complete before they allow anything to be adopted. They have strict rules about where the dog can live and so on.

I recently this past year when to the local shelter as there was a sheppard puppy listed, i went to adopt him and they had a 15 page application on adopting a dog that had a death date in 2 weeks. Im sorry but 15 pages to adopt a dog that is set to be killed in 2 weeks is ridiculous.

I even had my father with as i was adopting this for him as he loves sheppards. They denied him cause of his location and his back yard was not suitable. Mind you my fathers back yard is 2 acres and fenced in. So rather adopt him out they denied every person application and the dog was sadly put down.


So there for im sick of shelters and will only buy from breeders who dont make you sit for 2 hours filling out paperwork to just get denied.

Edit: To add to this they even denied my mother a adult cat cause my 9 month old neise often visits my mothers house, but doesnt live or sleep there. They have a list of demands never met.

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Muze (01-15-2010),_West Coast Jungle_ (01-06-2010)

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## starrlamia

> Both sides are very VALID points.
> 
> Shelters for one have a huge ass book you have to complete before they allow anything to be adopted. They have strict rules about where the dog can live and so on.
> 
> I recently this past year when to the local shelter as there was a sheppard puppy listed, i went to adopt him and they had a 15 page application on adopting a dog that had a death date in 2 weeks. Im sorry but 15 pages to adopt a dog that is set to be killed in 2 weeks is ridiculous.
> 
> I even had my father with as i was adopting this for him as he loves sheppards. They denied him cause of his location and his back yard was not suitable. Mind you my fathers back yard is 2 acres and fenced in. So rather adopt him out they denied every person application and the dog was sadly put down.
> 
> 
> So there for im sick of shelters and will only buy from breeders who dont make you sit for 2 hours filling out paperwork to just get denied.


Some places go to far IMO, which makes it hard to adopt out the animals. But I wouldnt let that deter you from shelters or rescues. They have the animal's best interest in mind and the applications are to ensure that you can provide what the dog needs. ive read a ton of stories of people adopting pets and either bringing it back to the shelter because OMG it acts like a dog, or trying to find a home for it on kijiji/craigslist for the same reasons.

Reputable breeders will have an application just as long as most shelters. And if they dont have any applications/contract at all, they arent worth buying from.

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## Jt.

At the very least I hope all the puppies will be spayed and neutered before being sent to their new homes.  :Mad:

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## Jt.

Also...




> I think another major thing that has to do with that is people not finding the right dog when they visit shelters.  Some people want pure bred dogs, or nice looking mutts, and dogs that have a clean record.  Clean record meaning no abuse, no parasites, etc.  People are weird with Pit Bulls, since they are claimed to be born "fighters" when of course they are not, so they won't buy one from a shelter if they think it won't get along with the family or other family pets if it was used for fighting.  The point is that some people want to get their dogs from top quality breeders so they have a nice dog without a bad history and know it came from someone with top notch breeding dogs.  
> 
> People are starting to build non-kill shelters (these shelters are HUGE too, and have parts where the separate the new dogs from the already established dogs that got over sicknesses and got rid of parasites) so the dogs don't have to die, and so that most will get a good home.


Your ignorance on this subject is truly astounding.

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_aaramire_ (01-06-2010),_Calift_ (01-08-2010),_GoingPostal_ (01-05-2010),Jamie-n-Heith (01-05-2010),Repfanaticlady28 (01-05-2010)

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## RichsBallPythons

> Some places go to far IMO, which makes it hard to adopt out the animals. But I wouldnt let that deter you from shelters or rescues. They have the animal's best interest in mind and the applications are to ensure that you can provide what the dog needs. ive read a ton of stories of people adopting pets and either bringing it back to the shelter because OMG it acts like a dog, or trying to find a home for it on kijiji/craigslist for the same reasons.
> 
> Reputable breeders will have an application just as long as most shelters. And if they dont have any applications/contract at all, they arent worth buying from.


Thats true but my mother tired 2 different shelters and they all had different excuses as to why she cant have a cat.

I looked at shelters and rescues and they were either sick or not what my father wanted.

I ended up buying a Sheppard puppy from a local breeder for my father and hes been happy and the breeder still comes by and visits the dog.

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## starrlamia

> Thats true but my mother tired 2 different shelters and they all had different excuses as to why she cant have a cat.
> 
> I looked at shelters and rescues and they were either sick or not what my father wanted.
> 
> I ended up buying a Sheppard puppy from a local breeder for my father and hes been happy and the breeder still comes by and visits the dog.


Thats unfortunate and surprising.
Were the parent's health tested? GSDs are prone to hip dysplasia. Cute pup.

----------


## RichsBallPythons

> Thats unfortunate and surprising.
> Were the parent's health tested? GSDs are prone to hip dysplasia. Cute pup.


Everything was tested and the breeder brings the mother and father of the pup with him when he visits. Both parents are 5 and 6 years old.

When i bought him i got many vet paper work with all types of testing done including the dewclaw removal when young. Never once had a problem with him at all. I hardly get to see the lil guy but my father has trained him now for tracking down deer in woods. He also only listens to commands in german.

----------


## starrlamia

> Everything was tested and the breeder brings the mother and father of the pup with him when he visits. Both parents are 5 and 6 years old.
> 
> When i bought him i got many vet paper work with all types of testing done including the dewclaw removal when young. Never once had a problem with him at all. I hardly get to see the lil guy but my father has trained him now for tracking down deer in woods. He also only listens to commands in german.


Sounds like a great dog, and it is nice to hear of a GSD being given a job to do. They are great working dogs.

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_RichsBallPythons_ (01-05-2010)

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## Repfanaticlady28

> And didn't she just have the other litter back in August??? That is in NO way, shape or form a responsible thing to do. It is hard enough for the female to have a litter every year but twice in one year. DISGUSTING!


Yep. Less than 7 months ago (6-22-09) she had 10 puppies. Large litter and very little time to recuperate before she was irresponsibly bred again. And there are still idiots that will reply saying it's not irresponsible. These people either know nothing, or would rather stick up for their "friend" rather than look out for the well being of the dog. Here comes another interesting tidbit from the last litter's thread. Quoted from post #10 (which is a post by Jyson).



> Tell me about it, and even more shocking is that this is her FIRST(and only) litter!


Hmmm. Looks familiar. So, how many "last" litters are you going to make her suffer before you either get her spayed, or she dies?
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=94628



> So if you have such a problem with this, then why don't you make your own thread and rant all about it.


What's the point when you've already made one for me with examples? Thank you, BTW. <-------I might be rude, but at least I show my gratefulness.

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_aaramire_ (01-06-2010)

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## GoingPostal

> A dog wouldn't need those tests if it's very healthy.  Some people like to feed their dogs dinner scraps which posses a higher risk for things to come later when the dog is old, but if the dog is walked each day, fed the right amount, never really fed scraps, active, brushed, bathed, etc. (which most people are willing to do those things for their dog(s)) I don't see the need for any of those tests.


Ok, seriously, don't open your mouth if you don't have a clue what you are talking about.  These are GENETIC disorders, meaning if the parents have or carry the genes for them then it's highly likely the puppies will have issues down the line.  

My boss has a mini schnauzer that at 2 years old developed cataracts and is now blind because he bought from some byb who didn't care about the issues that commonly plague the breed.  My breed of choice, APBT stands at about 25% displaystic of dogs tested.  I could show you xrays of a great dane puppy who was put down at 4 months old because his hips were completely out of the sockets due to careless breeding and he was in extreme agony.  

But someone thought their dog just needed to be bred because it was cute or they wanted one just like it.  They don't bother to think or care what happens to those dogs over the rest of their lives or how many more dogs are produced as a result of their litter.  Out of sight, out of mind right?

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_aaramire_ (01-06-2010),_Calift_ (01-08-2010)

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## Swingline0.0.1

> Ok, seriously, don't open your mouth if you don't have a clue what you are talking about.


You really do not need to be so rude to people.

----------

_CoolioTiffany_ (01-07-2010),dr del (01-05-2010),_joepythons_ (01-05-2010),_Jyson_ (01-06-2010),_waltah!_ (01-06-2010)

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## sekaiNdobes

> A dog wouldn't need those tests if it's very healthy.


YES, they do.

I kjnow perfectly healthy dogs that were CERFed... turned out they had cataracts.  Dogs were spayed/neutered.  Not bred.

In my breed, a doberman can appear perfectly healthy, but be vWD affected.  Then an idiot can breed that dog to another "perfectly healthy" dog, that also happens to be vWD affected.  They produce a whole litter of vWD affected puppies.  And half of them end up being clinical.  

What would you tell those puppy owners, as they watch their puppies bleed to death from a simple scratch?  Oh golly gee whiz, the parents were perfectly healthy!

Dogs with poor hips may never show signs of it... but they can pass it on, especially if bred to another dog with bad hips.  Same thing with elbows.

Responsible breeders do extensive health testing, because they feel that EVERY dog they produce should have the very best start in life.  They love their breed, and want to improve their dogs by reducing health problems, increasing longevity, improving structure and perfecting the correct temperament.

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_aaramire_ (01-06-2010),_Calift_ (01-08-2010),_catawhat75_ (01-05-2010)

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## blackcrystal22

Both points are valid, but here's what I don't understand.

Why are people getting on the OP's case for breeding and supporting people to adopt from shelters with thousands of homeless animals when they bought a purebred from a breeder themselves and not a shelter? I understand you wanted a purebred, but don't get on their case about shelters unless you are also doing your part to help out the shelters and adopt. Maybe you are, but this sure doesn't seem the case.

And seriously, whether people know what they are talking about or not, being so incredibly rude is not going to get your point across in a better manner. In fact, it shows a lot about you. I don't care how passionate you are about the issue, discuss it and display your side. Attacking others makes your side look a lot worse.

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Muze (01-15-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (01-06-2010),_West Coast Jungle_ (01-06-2010)

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## DutchHerp

> I really tried not to comment on this post, but it is ridiculous to berate the OP like you have. Do any of you people that posted badly about this have kids? If so, are they all adopted? If the answer is no, then why not? There are millions of children that need a good home, and are in orphanages. Think that sounds crazy? So does making a big deal when somebody shows you the beautiful puppies they have.


Well come on, I'm sure his feelings won't get hurt over this.

There's also a difference between breeding dogs as a hobby and passing on your genes.

Later, Matt

----------


## sekaiNdobes

> Why are people getting on the OP's case for breeding and supporting people to adopt from shelters with thousands of homeless animals when they bought a purebred from a breeder themselves and not a shelter?


Because there's a huge difference between the OP and actual responsible breeders.  Responsible breeders don't breed to produce pets for the "market", and take back dogs they produce at any time - i.e. they aren't directly contributing to the shelter population.  They title their dogs to ensure they are breeding quality specimens, and do extensive health testing to ensure they're not taking their breed backward.  

My cats are from a shelter, but my dogs are from breeders... because I show my dogs in conformation and performance events.  Rescue dogs can be great for performance, but in my breed there are several very serious health problems and I want to do everything in my power to ensure I have healthy dogs with the correct temperament.   I have a wonderful breeder that consistently produces the type of dog I need for the activities we do.

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_Calift_ (01-08-2010)

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## starrlamia

> Both points are valid, but here's what I don't understand.
> 
> Why are people getting on the OP's case for breeding and supporting people to adopt from shelters with thousands of homeless animals when they bought a purebred from a breeder themselves and not a shelter? I understand you wanted a purebred, but don't get on their case about shelters unless you are also doing your part to help out the shelters and adopt. Maybe you are, but this sure doesn't seem the case.
> 
> And seriously, whether people know what they are talking about or not, being so incredibly rude is not going to get your point across in a better manner. In fact, it shows a lot about you. I don't care how passionate you are about the issue, discuss it and display your side. Attacking others makes your side look a lot worse.


All of my animals except my dog and bp are rescues. My bf was the one who wanted a dog, and he wanted a specific breed. So we got a dog from a reputable breeder who works his dogs and health tested/certified his dogs. This isnt a popular enough breed of dog to find in a shelter (there are only a handful of breeders in North America and none would ever let their dogs end up in a shelter). Otherwise we would have gone to a shelter or rescue.

I have no problem with purebred dogs or people buying purebreds from a reputable breeder. But the OP is neither a reputable breeder, or someone breeding purebred dogs, so a rescue is a much better option (and the ethical option)

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## Repfanaticlady28

All of my dogs and cats are rescues. I have never bought from a breeder and never will...reputable or not. I don't disagree with breeding purebred, health tested, show quality dogs, but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy them. I believe that if people are going to breed these dogs they need to contribute to their local humane society. 

In the matter of this litter and the one from June it's just downright irresponsible and I'm not going to overlook an irresponsible mutt breeder that is posting on a dog forum and getting congratulated for his irresponsibility. 
And for those who gave me bad rep points....waste of your time. I could care less what you think of me. I'd give you bad rep points for congratulating an irresponsible mutt breeder, but I know they'd just be taken away anyway since most of the idiots congratulating Jyson and giving me bad rep are mods. Needless to say I'm not a fan of this site and will gladly go back to RZ when I'm finished here.

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_aaramire_ (01-06-2010)

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## blackcrystal22

> All of my dogs and cats are rescues. I have never bought from a breeder and never will...reputable or not. I don't disagree with breeding purebred, health tested, show quality dogs, but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy them. I believe that if people are going to breed these dogs they need to contribute to their local humane society. 
> 
> In the matter of this litter and the one from June it's just downright irresponsible and I'm not going to overlook an irresponsible mutt breeder that is posting on a dog forum and getting congratulated for his irresponsibility. 
> And for those who gave me bad rep points....waste of your time. I could care less what you think of me. I'd give you bad rep points for congratulating an irresponsible mutt breeder, but I know they'd just be taken away anyway since most of the idiots congratulating Jyson and giving me bad rep are mods. Needless to say I'm not a fan of this site and will gladly go back to RZ when I'm finished here.


I doubt they were giving you negative rep points due to the validity of your information. I think it had to do more with how rude you were to the OP initially. You came across more to me as a troll then you did as an educated dog-person.

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_Jyson_ (01-06-2010),_West Coast Jungle_ (01-06-2010)

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## dr del

I beg your pardon?




> And for those who gave me bad rep points....waste of your time. I could care less what you think of me. I'd give you bad rep points for congratulating an irresponsible mutt breeder, but I know they'd just be taken away anyway since most of the idiots congratulating Jyson and giving me bad rep are mods. Needless to say I'm not a fan of this site and will gladly go back to RZ when I'm finished here.


Sorry but I am not going to let that one slide past.

*ONE* of the rep interactions you got from this thread was from a member of staff - ONE. Incase your math skills are as rusty as your social skills let me work that out for you. It comes to 33% 

Since when was a third classed as "most" ???

In your *entire history* on the site you have only ever recieved any rep interaction from staff twice. I intend to change that once I have posted this by the way as I really don't like people lying in general and about the staff even less.

And in this thread containing 51 posts, again, *ONE* was made by a member of staff. I'll let you work that one out yourself ( hint - it's less than 33% this time ). I did thank someones post though if you wish to try and count that in.

And yet you call us idiots.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

The only time your rep points would be taken away was if they broke the rules for the rep system and were either abusive or retaliatory.

I have never had the pleasure of visiting RZ so do not know how they would feel about someone lying about the staff - but I can't imagine them liking it any more than I do.


dr del

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_Elise.m_ (01-06-2010),_Jyson_ (01-06-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (01-06-2010),_waltah!_ (01-06-2010)

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## waltah!

Congrats, Jason. There have been some very rude posts here which are generally not appreciated. If those folks can find a place that does appreciate it then hey, go nuts. You can have all of the factual info you want, but when you are that rude in proving your points the facts tend to get overlooked.
Just another .02 from one of the idiot mods.

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_Jyson_ (01-06-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (01-06-2010)

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## DutchHerp

> I beg your pardon?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but I am not going to let that one slide past.
> 
> *ONE* of the rep interactions you got from this thread was from a member of staff - ONE. Incase your math skills are as rusty as your social skills let me work that out for you. It comes to 33% 
> 
> Since when was a third classed as "most" ???
> ...


I think this is a pretty chode-ey post coming from a mod, honestly.

Later, Matt

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## waltah!

> I think this is a pretty chode-ey post coming from a mod, honestly.
> 
> Later, Matt


I would disagree. The great thing is that we don't all always have to agree.

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Muze (01-15-2010)

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## dr del

Hi,

Whatever else I am - I am still a member of the site Matt.

Was I supposed to quietly watch someone lie and say nothing about it?

Or should I only say something if it isn't the staff they are lying about?

What, exactly, do you think I should be doing in these areas and why?

What about my above post don't you agree with? You never know I might end up agreeing with you.


dr del

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## Elise.m

I didn't read this whole thread, but skimmed through most of the post. All I can say is WOW. People who put in long hard 3 hour days at a shelter are complaining about a responsible dog breeder. 

I think it's misdirected anger. You guys need to be angry and shout at the people who are putting the dogs in the shelter, not people like Jason. That's just rude. I'm sure you're one of those types of people who thinks that just because they do community work it gives them the right be berate people like you have done in this thread.

And don't say that you have gone out and shouted at the people who put animals in shelters, because there are so many people that you'd be shouting at them while I type this. Dogs being in shelters is a fact of life. That's why there are shelters. DOGS DIE. That's the way the circle goes. Yes, it's sad that they have to be put to sleep because of some idiot who got caught up in the moment, but so what. If you spend so much time in a shelter as you have said, you would learn that it's part of the world.

I don't understand why you're trying to preach to people that we need to adopt dogs from the shelter when the economy is so bad that people who normally do adopt have stopped. 

You may claim that you don't care what people think of you, but the cold hard fact is you're a human being. Unless you're a psychopath, which I doubt you are, you care.

Honestly, I'm so tired of hearing about dogs in shelters. I want to hear more about the reptiles that are abused for YEARS on end. But of course, we have idiots like you who think that just because dogs are furry and cuddly they should make headlines. (I'm not trying to say that we should forget about the dogs, I just think it's already a well known fact and it's being beaten into the ground while other animals are being overlooked.)

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_Swingline0.0.1_ (01-06-2010)

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## DutchHerp

> Hi,
> 
> Whatever else I am - I am still a member of the site Matt.
> 
> Was I supposed to quietly watch someone lie and say nothing about it?
> 
> Or should I only say something if it isn't the staff they are lying about?
> 
> What, exactly, do you think I should be doing in these areas and why?
> ...


The part that I found chode-ey is that I personally believe you went down to his level by talking down to him as if he was a mind challenged child.

I agree with you that the information he spilled about the rep points was largely incorrect. 

Later, Matt

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## catawhat75

So it is perfectly ok for Jason to breed his dog, back to back in a year b/c hey he is doing a great job finding mutts homes for now?  :Bowdown:  I would be just as pissed if the dog was a titled champion. 

Who cares about the dog or her health, we shouldn't be rude, we don't want to offend someone. Speaks volumes about personalities that they think this is ok in any shape or form. And rescue people are going to be upset by this, we deal with the fall out on a daily basis. It makes us angry, it makes us bawl our eyes out. Mostly, it makes us like animals alot more than humans.

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## RichsBallPythons

Let the thread die and take it to the QT room.

In case you havent noticed snake morphs are MUTTS as well. This can go back and forth and this thread is NOT where it belongs anymore.

Take it elsewhere :Wag of the finger:

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## catawhat75

It's not the fact that it is mutts (if you can't read) it is about the fact that it is UNHEALTHY for his female.

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## RichsBallPythons

> It's not the fact that it is mutts (if you can't read) it is about the fact that it is UNHEALTHY for his female.


This thread was more about breeding MUTTS adding to the population of dogs. Health wasn't brought up until certain ppl got rude when challenged. 

Bottom line its his dog and he can do what he feels is in her best interest, just like we do with out pets. Simple as that.

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## catawhat75

Oh but we can bash people for not taking care of their snakes the right way? Excccuuse me. So sorry! Well, if he can take care of (ha!) his dog any way he sees fit, then there is no reason people should get jumped on for doing other stupid things and not doing right by their animals. Makes perfect sense to me. Its not a reptile so who cares.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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_aaramire_ (01-07-2010),Repfanaticlady28 (01-06-2010)

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## RichsBallPythons

You can argue all you want RESPECTFULLY. OP not once disrespected anyone here in this thread yet many felt the need to make an ass out of them selves over something they cant do squat about. Just DROP IT already

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## catawhat75

Why don't you follow your own advise? 

And as for something I feel passionately about, when I see something that is detrimental to an animal, I am going to speak up. It is obvious that Jason loves his dog, but he should be concerned about her health and the puppies. It's not only Jason I have the issue with, it's alot of those who have posted in this thread.

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## Repfanaticlady28

Awwww! Did I chafe somebody the wrong way again? Welcome to my world. I have to fight against tons of idiotic, irresponsible dog breeders and their supporters every day. Might as well make some people feel the same way as me. 
Elise- If you didn't read the whole thread then STFU! You obviously didn't read the part where Jason has bred this dog twice within less than a 7 month period. If that still sounds like a responsible breeder to you then you are an idiot. I want somebody (preferrably Jyson) to show me where it says that it's healthy for a dog to be bred that often. Heck, good luck finding something that says it's healthy to breed a dog at all.

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## RichsBallPythons

> Why don't you follow your own advise? 
> 
> And as for something I feel passionately about, when I see something that is detrimental to an animal, I am going to speak up. It is obvious that Jason loves his dog, but he should be concerned about her health and the puppies. It's not only Jason I have the issue with, it's alot of those who have posted in this thread.


Please show where i was rude to anyone or pointed fingers at anyone. I stated my facts about shelters and breeders and thats it. Everyone else as gone on and on about populations of dogs in a rude disrespectful way. You  and many others can get your point across with out being rude to anyone.

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## catawhat75

Meant the drop it part, not the rude part. My bad. 
But it does piss me off and while 99% of the time I can remain civil or just stick to the facts, this is something that has gone on before. Heard the I won't breed her again before. Just like ignorance against reptiles hit most of our buttons, this one hits mine (and several others). 

While it is his right to do as he pleases, it is not fair to that dog. Bottom line.

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## accidental777

Since when has "fair" had anything to do with legality? It is his animal. Bottom line. 

You can try to educate someone, but you can not control their actions. Getting bent out of shape about it and berating someone does not actually do anything. It might make you feel better, but it isn't going to change the situation at hand. 
I agree that there are too many animals in shelters. Just like I agree that there are too many babies born into bad situations. It is irritating, but it just doesn't pay to get worked up over it. You end up just making yourself look bad.

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## catawhat75

And in my mind, those that say well it's his animal, we shouldn't care- look bad. 

Not getting worked up about it and ignoring the problem sounds like a great idea. Why don't we do that with all the drama going on about loosing our snakes. Heck, BPs aren't on the chopping block, why should I care? But I do, and I fight because it is the right thing to do, because I don't want them coming after other animals next. 

In fact, why don't we ignore everything and let people do as they please? Who needs accountability, to be responsible, to do the right thing?

No wonder most people think so poorly of the "reptile freaks"....

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## Bruce Whitehead

Brook, I know this is something you are passionate about, and I can respect that, but I really do not see Jason as some beast.

I say this not because I am sticking up for a friend, but rather I know him well... as a lover of his animals. I know Jason and his family have rehabbed many animals that i love (horses being one, and an animal that is NOT cheap to take on). 

I have had animals that go in and out of heat with no chance of spaying in between, funny thing about animals, we cannot control that all the time, can we?

I once had a cat that was unspayable for close to two years... so blanket assumptions do not sit well with me (and yes, I have made MORE than my share over the years).

Conversely, I do not think that people need to address every assumption made about them. I think Jason has been very dignified in this thread, and I do commend him for that.

This is something I have seen so many times come up, that I can not even count. Everytime someone breeds a dog, the rescuers come out to voice their opinions. As someone that has invested undue time, money, and resources in rehabbing sick and dying snakes/reptiles I can relate. 

But to draw a comparison between those that adopt a new pup and those that will adopt a rescue/shelter dog is not even close to being congruent. Even as someone that breeds reptiles I know that.

As people that breed animals we accept a very heavy price for what we can and cannot control. We safeguard as much as we can and we hope for the best, because we love this/these hobbies and our animals, but it is NOT failproof and we also accept a huge degree for what we cannot control.

Everytime I hold a burned and scarred snake I do not blame the breeder, I look to the person that had that animal and subjected it to such immense negligience. I focus my attention on educating new keepers, and teaching others how to buy, evaluate and invest responsibly. And yes... if you are going to be caring for an animal for 5-40 years, they are an investment.

Do we blame those that pass by an *inferior* animal. Never.

Yet we champion those that purchase purebred genetically weak progeny? It does not make sense to me. I am not saying that in any way to be difficult, I truly have never grasped that analogy. If you want genetically suscepticle (sp?) animals look no further than any purebred dog show for a never-ending list of animals with deep-rooted genetic inbred defects.

Fluctuating patella anyone? (to name just one). Shall we stop breeding the dogs entirely since it is such a high occurrence? (mark my vote as YES) Anyone breeding them is both negligent and grossly incompetent... i mean, regardless of how many stellar examples of the breed that are produced right?

Where do you think all those PUREBREDS are going when they are not fit for the ring? Yep, to your shelters and your inexperienced owners, who then saddle bills of THOUSANDS to fix the PURE breeding that is so cachet.

If a dog cannot even clean its own eyes without my help, then yeah...  :Confused2: 

I hope this response is as ambivalent as I feel. We all have an animal that inspires us to fight for them, and mine are snakes, yours is dogs. 

Respectfully,
Bruce (AKA loftlizard)

P.S: I may not be around much (at all) but RZ AKA "the green screen" was where I learned to care for my beloved Ash, and I will always pay that forward.

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_Jyson_ (01-06-2010),_waltah!_ (01-06-2010)

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## catawhat75

Bruce, that was a very well thought out and worded response.

----------


## Bruce Whitehead

> Bruce, that was a very well thought out and worded response.


Thank you for that... I hesitate these days to post as I truly lack the time or energy to follow threads to completions (AKA death). 

If I have learned nothing in my years online it is that there are many ways to raise *insert animal of passion here*...

Bruce

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## aaramire

The point that cata and Brook are trying to make is that breeding a female dog more then once a year can be VERY harmful to her health. We have already established our opinions on breeding in general when there are dogs to be adopted at shelters. I think that is clear. I also agree with Bruce on the fact that purebreds can be genetic trainwrecks, and its a sad thing to see. I work at a vet clinic and I cant tell you the countless numbers of golden retrievers I see with severe hip problems, and bulldogs who cant breathe because of the structure of their brachycephalic noses, etc. But I think all these problems stem from the fact that dogs are overpopulated, over-bred, and inbred. So why keep breeding then? Why make more dogs to contribute to the problem? It makes no sense to me. Go to a shelter, and save a life. Its worth it.

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## starrlamia

I am sad that people are being rude, it does negate the facts, and I hope I did not come across rude, i tried to come off as passionate and put that into how important the facts that presented are.

Do you really think that the millions of dogs produced every year by irresponsible breeders who end up dying in shelters are a result of pet owners who mistreat their animals? Yah some are. But the biggest problem out there are the people who think they have a great pet and want to see little offspring running around.  Im glad the OP is good to his pets, maybe he can open his eyes to the huge overpopulation problem of dogs and realize that not breeding like he is, would be the kindest thing he can do for dogs.

Yep some purebreds have genetic problems. But do you really think that breeding mutts isnt passing off those same genetic traits? Just because it is a mixed breed doesnt mean it wont inherit some of the bad genetics of the breeds it is a mix of. This is also why it is very important for a breeder to test their dogs to weed out those genetic traits. Responsible breeders do this, but unfortunately the irresponsible breeders vastly outnumber responsible ones and so breeds are abound with these horrible problems

Breeding a dog back to back is pretty awful. It is extremely hard on their bodies.

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## accidental777

Wow.....ok, I obviously was not very clear the first time. 
I did not mean we should ignore a problem. If you are truly passionate about changing something go for it. Find out ways to get better legislation in order. Education also plays a big role in all of this. There are other ways to deal with issues than making yourself look bad. That really doesn't do anyone much good does it? 
Going around an bashing people on forums can make people tune you out pretty quickly. Maybe you could just be more tactful about how you are expressing your facts and opinions. This may perhaps in turn make people more receptive. Besides, in my honest opinion, I think the more people you can rally together the better off the cause will be. If you go around scaring people off you may end up very alone.

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## dr del

Hi,




> The part that I found chode-ey is that I personally believe you went down to his level by talking down to him as if he was a mind challenged child.
> 
> I agree with you that the information he spilled about the rep points was largely incorrect. 
> 
> Later, Matt


Your right - starting or inflaming a situation then lying/ playing the victim card is one of my hot button topics and I should have taken that into consideration and been less insulting in my reply.

But please don't use the word "chode-ey" - urban dictionary is not age restricted.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

There are plenty of words in the english language you could have used that don't skirt quite so close to the infractable.  :Please: 


dr del

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_Bruce Whitehead_ (01-07-2010)

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## sekaiNdobes

> I also agree with Bruce on the fact that purebreds can be genetic trainwrecks, and its a sad thing to see.


This is true.  However, *responsible* breeders are working very hard to change this.  Not only are responsible breeders breeding away from health problems, but they are active in their breed clubs and collectively donate thousans, even millions of dollars to help fund research to make ALL dogs healthier.  Our breed club (the DPCA) is reknowned for making health a priority, and supporting research that is trying to make all dogs healthier.

How can a litter whose pedigree has never been health-tested be assumed to be healthy?  

If the OP had done full health testing, I wouldn't have an issue with it.  But as it stands, the parents of this litter have no health testing.  And that truly is sad.

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## sekaiNdobes

> ...we cannot control that all the time, can we?


Yes, we can - it's called responsible ownership.  I've had intact dogs in my house for more than 7 years, and not once have we had an accident.  It's actually not very hard.  





> Fluctuating patella anyone? (to name just one).


Actually, it's _luxating_ patellas - and responsible breeders are trying very hard to eliminate it.  BYBs are not.





> Where do you think all those PUREBREDS are going when they are not fit for the ring? Yep, to your shelters and your inexperienced owners


False.  Pet quality puppies go to pet homes.  Responsible breeders do everything in their power to prevent their dogs from being dumped in shelters, and when one does end up in a shelter they pull them.  Responsible breeders take back any dog, at any time.  Responsibly bred puppies come with contracts, and buyers are thoroughly screened.  I would be curious to know what kind of application process the OP has for his puppies.  Probably nothing near the requirements of responsible breeders.

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