# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics >  Sugar and Calico Question

## guambomb832

Is a sugar ball python the same as a Calico Ball Python? I mean they both have the white sides and stuff.

----------


## Hock3ymonk3y

They are the exact same thing, just have different names

----------


## shico

i agree with monkey

----------


## guambomb832

Oh alright
Thanks  :Smile:

----------


## FIREball

I think the sugars look better in my opinion, there seems to be more white on them

----------


## Patrick Long

I do not think they are the same.

I think that there is a HUGE difference.

(ALL PHOTOS FROM GOOGLE)

Pastel Calico
http://www.exoticsbynature.com/tinley07/ballroom1.jpg

Pastel Sugar
http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona07/kahl7.jpg

----------

_josh@outbackreps_ (07-04-2009)

----------


## WingedWolfPsion

I don't see the difference.  I thought they had been crossed and proven to be the same.  I'm sure there are some minor differences (as between a lemon pastel and Graziani pastel), but it's the same gene.

----------


## matt71915

the 2 pictures that pat posted look pretty similar except for the pattern variation that pastels have

----------


## Patrick Long

No way....comparing two lines of pastels?!?!

I would have maybe agreed if you had said lesser/butter but not different lines of pastels.

Its completely different looking. Not just a different shade.



The calicos IMO have a much stronger white, that doesnt melt like the sugars do

Sugar
http://www.baileyreptiles.com/pics/08sgm1.jpg

Calico
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ima...alico_main.jpg




I find this topic very interesting and have for some time.

Do you have a link to where they were proven to be the same? I am very curious, not just tryin to bust yer balls....LOL


So weird, I was just having this conversation with a friend of mine a few days ago...so bizarre

----------


## RoyalVariations

Sugar

----------


## Patrick Long

Right....


The sugars look melted to me....while the calicos....look speckled and jagged

----------


## matt71915

IMO they are pretty much the same. Like lesser and butter and black pastel and cinni

each snake of the morph is different
find a picture of a dark sugar and compare it to the calico you posted and they will look virtually the same
find a light calico and compare to the light sugar you posted and they will look similar too

as far as the white flecking on the sides it all varies from snake to snake, they both will have some with high and low white. One morph may have more high or low white but i dont think that matters much
to me its kinda like saying a high white spider is a different morph than a low white

----------


## Patrick Long

> IMO they are pretty much the same. Like lesser and butter and black pastel and cinni
> 
> each snake of the morph is different
> find a picture of a dark sugar and compare it to the calico you posted and they will look virtually the same
> find a light calico and compare to the light sugar you posted and they will look similar too
> 
> as far as the white flecking on the sides it all varies from snake to snake, they both will have some with high and low white. One morph may have more high or low white but i dont think that matters much
> to me its kinda like saying a high white spider is a different morph than a low white


If the high white had black tipping around every scale, and the low white did not, I would probably call it a different morph as well.

----------


## matt71915

yeah,  but i mean as far as it matters to me, i think they are the same thing. Will I call them all a calico or a sugar? probably not I would call it what it's  labeled

----------


## RoyalVariations

the snake keeper is working with both lines. they have noticed differences. sugars tend to be smaller and less per clutch. sugars also produce more black backs which includes the siblings which are NOT sugars. the sugar pastels tend to look different than calico pastels. when I refer to sugars i am speaking of the Rene Valentin line from France.

----------


## muddoc

Kyle,
  I assume that is your snake, so I will say congrats on the very nice Valentin line Sugar you have.  I refer to my animal as a Sugar, because that is what Tracy called it.  I believe there is a difference in the VPI line and the Calicos.  I also believe that in most cases, you could pick the Valentin line animal out of a group.  

As for the super form, it was done by Morton Wright last year.  He bred a VPI line Sugar (acyually the original import if I'm not mistaken) to a Calico and produced what they believe is the Super.  Further breeding will prove that or not.

----------


## West Coast Jungle

Personally I think they are different names of a similar mutation and Mortons snake seems to prove that thought.

At the end of the day the white seems to come out randomly like in a pied so the animals vary tremendously from one to the other as well as from line to line and also when mixed into other morphs so who knows?

I got a girl TSK line calico a while back banking on the super form and was very excited when Morton said he produced a super. I also hear some folks say Morton's is not a super, I hope they are wrong but time will tell. I think the morph has tremendous potential. 

I would like to make the super black pastel super calico, that should have some serious contrast!

----------


## likebull1

> Right....
> 
> 
> The sugars look melted to me....while the calicos....look speckled and jagged


X2

The Calicos have sort of a pixelated look, almost like somebody sprayed them with white paint in microsoft paint.

----------


## WingedWolfPsion

The trick is to take a super, breed it to a normal, and see if you get intergraded-looking animals (or animals that all basically look like each other), or distinct sugars and calicos.

The same is true of butter/lesser, and cinnamon/black pastel.  If you get some of each, rather than intergrades, they are different.

----------


## RoyalVariations

> Kyle,
>   I assume that is your snake, so I will say congrats on the very nice Valentin line Sugar you have.  I refer to my animal as a Sugar, because that is what Tracy called it.  I believe there is a difference in the VPI line and the Calicos.  I also believe that in most cases, you could pick the Valentin line animal out of a group.  
> 
> As for the super form, it was done by Morton Wright last year.  He bred a VPI line Sugar (acyually the original import if I'm not mistaken) to a Calico and produced what they believe is the Super.  Further breeding will prove that or not.


Tim,

best of luck with your Sugar. these are all amazing morphs be it calico or sugar. for now I am in the mind set that the Sugar and Calico are not the same morph in regards to the valentin line and most of the american calico lines. I understand that I could be wrong,  :Wink:  that would not be the first time,   :Embarassed:  when I inquired about all of the lines and so forth before I went with the Valentin line it seemed to me that "they looked" different to me. the Pastel combos look different to me also. I am speaking of pattern and color. I asked TSK what they thought from their own experience with both lines "from two different sources". TSK expalined some differences that they had noticed. To them it did not matter one way or the other but they kept noticing differences. Sugars from the Valentin line were smaller as hatchlings than Calicos. Sugars tended to be less per clutch. the Valentin line produced black backs in each Sugar clutch which not only included the Sugars but also the non sugar siblings. time will tell. I dont think that one is better than the other but I do think they are different. the Sugars tend to be more extreme in pattern and color more often than most calico lines. then again, what do I know?   :Smile:

----------

_muddoc_ (07-06-2009)

----------


## RoyalVariations

Tim,

please post photos of your hatchlings this season. you always produce some beautiful Royals.  

best of luck with your Sugar project. have you posted any photos of your Sugar yet?

----------


## sg1trogdor

I say they are way different.  My opinion is based on the fact that I have yet to see a calico that I thought looked half way decent, but even the worst example of a sugar is just the greatest thing since sliced bread.   :Rolleyes2:

----------


## muddoc

> Tim,
> 
> please post photos of your hatchlings this season. you always produce some beautiful Royals.  
> 
> best of luck with your Sugar project. have you posted any photos of your Sugar yet?


  I have attached a link to the thread where I posted my Sugar.  Although he is near 700 grams, he did not breed this year.  I will however be posting pics of our hatchlings when they start coming (only 2 clutches out so far).

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=95460

----------


## Freakie_frog

I like a lot of people believe them to be compatible variations of the same mutation. as with the BEL complex I feel like the Calico is just a toned down version of a Sugar. I have seen Calico's for sale that look like sugars and visa versa. I feel like calico's and sugars are a mutation that is often forgotten about like a few of the other morphs that not much has been done with. I however LOVE sugars..I love the orange outlines and the melty pattern they have..

----------


## bbooradly

> I don't see the difference.  I thought they had been crossed and proven to be the same.  I'm sure there are some minor differences (as between a lemon pastel and Graziani pastel), but it's the same gene.


The sugar has more detailed or defined pattern, calico seems to have more distortion or smudging especially when you cross it with other morphs, but they have the same colors for the most part.

----------


## TheReptileEnthusiast

I think they are different lines of the same mutation. The different lines labeled calico have a lot of variation. The NWE line calicos could easily be mistaken for a Valentin line sugar. I have seen Sugars that look more calico as well. I believe that if you want to keep the caracteristics of a particular line, you have to be selective of any normals or morphs you breed them to. For example, I will breed my NWE line calico to a blackback because the blackback pattern is what drew me to the NWE calicos(I have a nice blackback lesser for her). I would do the same with a sugar as well, since they also have a strong blackback pattern.

----------


## MarkieJ

Does anyone have pics of the various lines of sugars and calicos?  Here's my Flora/Fauna Line Calico:

----------


## nickmetherd

I'll take Pete's Sugars over any calico I've seen so far.

----------


## OhhWatALoser

> I have attached a link to the thread where I posted my Sugar.  Although he is near 700 grams, he did not breed this year.  I will however be posting pics of our hatchlings when they start coming (only 2 clutches out so far).
> 
> http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=95460


looks exactly like my friends calico.....

just looking at all the pictures in this thread im pretty convinced they are different lines of the same morph.

----------


## TheReptileEnthusiast

Here is a NWE line calico.

http://www.nextworldexotics.com/imag...oFC26-9008.jpg

----------

_MarkieJ_ (12-13-2010)

----------


## Serpent_Nirvana

Calico, produce by Charles Glaspie. I'm not 100% sure what line she is; NERD line, perhaps?

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (09-20-2016)

----------


## MakiMaki

I became a fan of the Flora and Fauna line calico when I saw this snake on Dan Wolfe's site three years ago (photo by Dan Wolfe posted with his permission).  Both she and her brother have been among the favorites in my collection since then, and I'm excited about exploring what we can create with these genes.  I just love the oranges in them and I think the Flora and Fauna line has a ton of potential with color, but I have to admit the blackbacks on the sugars are cool.  I've had my male with some blackback females to see what pops out.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (09-20-2016)

----------


## mbrass

why couldnt they be like pieds and have varying degree's of white from both lines.... some high white and other not!

----------


## Bighill_Reptiles

the same could be said for the butter and lesser  
low white sugar


i'm not sure if there is a big difference in the two lines

----------


## cebabes20

The Calico is basically a Sugar.  :Smile: 

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/calico/

----------


## Eric Alan

> The Calico is basically a Sugar. 
> 
> http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/calico/


This thread is basically 7 years old.  :Smile: 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

----------

