# Feeders > General Feeders >  Do you keep snakes and Pet rats?

## littleindiangirl

I am looking for responses from people that keep snakes, and also keep pet rats.

How do you do what many consider impossible? 
Did you have any moral arguments with yourself? 
What is the mind set that allows you to enjoy both hobbies? Or don't you? Maybe you feel guilty about feeding rats? (Or mice)
How did you come to terms with feeding a rat (or mouse) to a snake when you also enjoy working with them?

I am very interested in hearing the answers, and would love to use them on my website, since I intend to devote a whole page to those who keep both animals. I know it's a lonely road for people like myself that keep several pet rats, but also deal with feeding rats or mice to my snakes. I am keenly interested in how you've managed both hobbies, what steps did you take to be at peace within yourself, or maybe you haven't. Please share.


If you allow me to use your comment, please explicitly say so and I will contact you.  :Good Job:

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## littleindiangirl

Sorry, I didn't put a choice for those that keep mice or ASF's as pets, I had wanted to really only focus on Norway rats as pets.

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## blackcrystal22

I love all animals and treat all of my animals with respect they fully deserve. Though I do not consider my ASF's pets (they do not enjoy being held very much) I still respect them as if they were my pets, and some will never be fed off. 
I have kept rats and mice as pets before and have made attachments. When I became interested in reptiles such as snakes, I slowly was able to overcome attachments with my feeder animals because I accepted that it was part of the natural cycle. I often feed frozen, out of convenience, but feeding live is just the same to me. I naturally feel bad about taking part in killing the animal but I also know it is in the most natural and (IMO) quick and painless way possible. 

I have chosen snakes and reptiles to become a serious hobby of mine that could eventually turn into a career involving herpetology, breeding, or exotic veterinary science. Snakes are my favorite because of their unusual characteristics and many other reasons that I can't quite explain. Feeding off another animal I care about is an unfortunate sacrifice that I make for my hobby, but I am willing to take life to give life under this circumstance.

Connie, my permission is yours.  :Very Happy:

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_littleindiangirl_ (04-22-2009)

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## 2kdime

FWIW

I don't like feeding rats at all, or any feeder to my snakes. I cringe every time I have to gas live feeders when I run out of frozen. It makes me very sad. I feel your dilemma Connie. 

BUT I love my snakes, and that's just what snakes eat, so I do what I have to to ensure they're survival.

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## reaxion07

I keep both - at first, the idea of feeding rats is what prevented me from getting a BP, even though I wanted one.  I didn't know that most people feed frozen.  Once I found out about that, I was okay.  I still get a little pit in my stomach when I think about feeding live, but I don't get angry or anything with people that do.  I understand, it's nature.  Could I feed live?  Only if it was NECESSARY, and I would probably feel like crap during and after.  I always make sure to inquire what a snake I am interested is feeding on.  

The real turning point for me was the whole nature - predator/prey thing.


You can use my opinion if you would like  :Smile:

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## truthsdeceit

Rats were always my pet of choice when I was a kid. Now snakes are my pet of choice and they eat rodents.

I breed mostly mice for my snakes feeding mostly live, sometimes p/k or frozen depending on what I have. 
I also breed rats on a smaller scale, I always feed rats f/t. It used to be because I couldn't imagine feeding a sweet rattie live to a snake, now I do it more for the snakes sake. I've seen the damage a rat can inflict. And while I always feel a twinge when the baby rats are up to size and it's time to put them in the CO2 chamber, I know I can't keep all these babies, and I know my bp and red tail have to eat. Honestly I don't feel much guilt about it after the initial twinge.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  I treat my breeders very well, they are spoiled rotten pets. They get more handling than my snakes. The litters get the same treatment before the one way trip to the freezer. I kinda think that one of the best parts about owning snakes it the ability to own rodents too. I love watching the cycle of life, seeing the babies grow up, I'd have never bred rats if it wasn't for the snakes. I can justify having so many pets because one set provides for the other.  :Very Happy: 

Snakes are beautiful to have and I would classify myself as a collector. It's their beauty and non-demanding care that makes them a collection. It's the rodents that get all the handling and love. Don't get me wrong, I handle my snakes but the rats beg for attention, the snakes don't care. Still at the end of the day I'd still choose the non-affectionate snakes over the rats who love me, hmmm.... does that make me a bad person.  :Weirdface:    Nah!!  :Razz: 

The rats only love me for the Yogis anyway.  :Razz:

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_cinderbird_ (04-22-2009),_gothkenny_ (10-05-2009)

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## mainbutter

I plan on raising rats some day when I have the ability to raise my own feeders.

I also look forward to keeping some as pets as well, which will never be fed off.

I have no moral qualms about feeding rats, and am 99% sure I won't have any moral qualms about it when I do have pet rats.

I fish for food, I love eating guinea pig, and I want to have livestock on a farm someday.  Yet I certainly love the idea of fish, guinea pigs, and various farm animals for pets as well.

In the next few years I really hope I can raise chickens.  You take care of them, they make eggs for you to eat, and then if they get to be too much work or you're headed out of town on vacation, or you just need some meat, well you can look forward to chicken dinner.

I definitely can look at an animal and think it looks cute AND delicious at the same time.  I guess that's what separates hunters from gatherers.

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## Michelle.C

I keep (kept) Rats and Snakes as pets. I currently do not own any rats, for space reasons only. I feed f/t mice and rats to my snakes, I will not feed a live rat. I have had to feed live mice to a few snakes to get them started though.

When I did keep Rats as pets, they had the left side of the critter room and the reptiles had the right side. I never noticed a negative reaction from either sets of animals. I owned over 40 Pet Rats and 70 Reptiles at that that time. The only thing that ever worried me was one of the snakes escaping and getting into the Ferret Nation (Rat cages). I took extra precautions to make sure that would never happen.

As far as moral issues with feeding rodents, I never had much of an issue. My views are simple; as long as you respect a prey animal (throughout it's life and after) and make sure it's death is as painless as possible, I can accept that it is the circle of life and all things to need eat. 

Personally, I do not like feeding f/t, but I do the best I can to make sure the animals death is as peaceful as I can possibly make it when I am forced to feed a live rodent.

I enjoy both hobbies, throughly.  My mindset was, yes I am feeding f/t (or live) rodents, but..One set are my pets, the other are animals that were bred strictly for food and never shown any human emotion. To me, once an animal has bonded with a human, it's out of the question to feed it to another animal. It's weird logic, but..just my opinion.  :Smile: 

If you want to use my comment on your site, you are more than welcome.

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_littleindiangirl_ (04-22-2009)

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## cobweb2000

I am breeding ASF's since they get a bit larger than mice specifically so I never have to feed rats to most of my snakes.  I have joint custody of a boa with the ex that does eat frozen rats and when I need to feed him, I try very hard not to look at or think about the prey item.  If I ever get to point with any of my snakes where it requires I feed live norway rats or that I pre-kill them myself, the snake will have to be rehomed. 

I have kept pet rats for many more years than snakes.   I don't have a moral issue with the snake needing to eat, what I have an issue with is thinking about the rat that has to be fed; most of my pet rats came from a feeder bin so but for the grace of God go they...

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## Stewart_Reptiles

I raise rats, mice and ASF, the breeders are spoiled however I do not see them as pets, I take good care of them just like I would any animal except there is no emotional attachment even if I found the babies cute and very likable just like any other baby animals.

I grew up with pet hamsters and I am not sure why I do not get attached to rats or mice as I am an animal lover in general, or maybe it is the fact that un-consciously I do not let myself get attached to them because of the fact that if I did I could not deal with having to feed them off. 

The only furry animal that I keep as a pet and that is considered to be a feeder by some is a rabbit and I know there is just NO WAY I could ever feed a rabbit to a snake, however it does not mean I dont understand that yes for some they are food.

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## wolfy-hound

I did keep rats as pets until very recently(only did not replace the 'pet' rats because of time/space issues).  I also bred most of the pet rats, and fed rats to the snakes/lizards.
I really did not have any issue, becuase I did treat the feeder rats just as good as the 'pet' rats or the breeder rats.  I used to have chickens, and I loved chickens, but also had no real issue with killing and butchering the chickens either.
I did always have a couple here and there, that never got killed for food, but if they died of natural causes(as happens with both) then they became food for other critters without qualm.
I eat meat.  I eat goats, and chickens, and cows... and fish and such... and my snake eats rats.  If rats had more meat on them, I'd probably eat rats too.  I'm pretty much an omnivore.  I've raised(or helped to raise) meat animals(including cows, goats, chickens, rabbits) and killed them for food.
Somehow.. I would draw the line at a dog or cat.. but not at a rat or rabbit or bird.  Yes, it's a little hypocritical, but dogs and cats have no purpose as food items in my culture(I understand other cultures eat them, but it's not my typical culture), so perhaps they get a 'free pass'.

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## Bruce Whitehead

I am up to my eyeballs in allergy meds, so I may miss most of the points... but will do my best. 

I feed rats, mice, ASFs, and FT chicks. As well I feed FT rats.

I try to feed FT to most, and get all my new hatchlings on FT, but mostly I feed live.

I love my pet rats, and ended up getting into rats after keeping snakes. My first batch of feeders ended up being to big to feed off (I was new to the hobby and misjudged), so I held them back as breeders. 

The more time I spent with them, the more I enjoyed them. Smart and socialable, they were just a great animal. I had one female that was always escaping, and I would find her nearby every day, place her back and she would escape again. 

Each time she got out I would sit with her and hold her and chat before putting her back in the cage. Eventually it came to a point where I knew she was out because she would come over and pull on my pant leg asking for a treat.

My first group were given very generous house privileges, with the above mentioned rat eventually getting her own cage with an open door. The only free-range rat I have had, and one of the best pets I could have ever asked for. She spent most of her time in her nest in my closest, and was always underfoot if we were around. Something very comforting about being up working at night and just catching a glimpse of her out of the corner of my eye, having her tug (or crawl up) my pant leg, and knowing that if I did call her she would come running everytime.

Despite this, I do not have issues with feeding rats off. I can covet the parents, but I can feed the babes and I do not have any issue with it. But there is the odd occasion where one of us will bond to (purely on our part and for what reason I do not know) one of the pups and then it gets held back).

Trevor, Belle, Maurice, Pepper, Sven, Frank, Denise, Chantel, Clarisse, Suzanne, Gloria, and Sharon can all attest to that...

The times I notice I have problems, is euthanizing any rat that gets too big to feed off. I can euthanize them, but I always try to re-home them first. Even if they have simply been in the feeder bin without much interaction, as in no bonding. I have probably placed 40 rats as pets... and I am always recommending them to people. I do think they are one of the best pets. I think if every house had two rats in it as pets, the world would be a better place. 

Feel free to roll your eyes there. 

Same with as pets for kids. I think they are ideal. They teach love, compassion, responsibility, and yes... ultimately death and mourning. Seeing my friend's 5 year old daughter handfeeding her two pet rats while they perch on her shoulder as she watches TV is just a really great feeling.

Gerbils, ASFs, Mice... not so much. I like my colonies overall, and I appreciate their good dispositions (and I feel affection for them), but I can feed off retired breeders as easily as I can feed off the babes. 

I can open a tub to find a dead breeder and feel *bad* but I still toss it. I open a tub to find a dead rat - breeder or pet, and I mourn each and everytime for them.

And what is a rat post without a few pics?

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_littleindiangirl_ (04-22-2009)

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## littleindiangirl

Bruce, I had hoped you would include pics!  :Very Happy:

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## ThyTempest

I understand how separating the feelings for both hobbies can be hard for many people, but I was surprised how easy the change was for me.  I felt bad when we fed off our first litter, but quickly got used to the fact that I breed rats for fun and feeders and that either way, the rat was not going to waste.  

On one hand, I find that keeping feeder/pet colonies mixed might make it a bit harder to separate the feelings, especially if you are feeding off the babies of your favorite momma.  However, I would rather have this than people segregating colonies and clearly giving the pet rats attention, better enclosure care, etc while the feeder colony just gets the bare minimum to produce.  

I guess I really have not said anything worthwhile, but basically it comes down to whether or not the rats, both as a species and individual animals, are being cared for and "used" efficiently.  If they are used as feeders, they have a good purpose for their death, to sustain another life.  If they are used as pets, they bring joy to the keeper.  I don't think it is up to anyone but the individual keeper to decide which is right, wrong or better.

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## littleindiangirl

I am surprised to see 13 people (besides myself) keep pet rats and also feed off rats!

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## Wh00h0069

I keep snakes as pets / breeders, and I raise rats as feeders. I do not consider my rats as pets. I do take care of them, and keep them healthy, but am not upset in the slightest when my snakes eat them.

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## Freakie_frog

First of all when I first start to own snakes I had a gut feeling that feeding the mice and rats off would be just an uncrossable hurdle for me. I soon found out that while it sucks major to have to end an animals life I also understand that the feeders are bred, fed and raised for this purpose. 

I have hundreds of feeder rats and I have a few that are pets I have a big Dumbo boy that is the nicest rat ever..I love him to death and he gets extra speical treats and privlages in the room.

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## Jenn

Great thread Connie!!! I have pet rats and I love them to death. I'm much more attached to my rats than my snakes, well... except for my bumblebee who has no idea he's a Ball Python. 

It is very difficult for me to feed my rats to my snakes. It's also really hard to feed mice to my snakes but not quite as bad. I thought it would get easier with time but it has actually gotten harder. I dread feeding day every week!

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## littleindiangirl

> I keep snakes as pets / breeders, and I raise rats as feeders. *I do not consider my rats as pets.* I do take care of them, and keep them healthy, but am not upset in the slightest when my snakes eat them.



Thanks for the input. I am however specifically looking for people that keep *PET* rats, and pet snakes.  :Good Job:

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## littleindiangirl

I have a feeling people are not voting on the poll correctly... so screw the poll I guess. :/

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## Wh00h0069

> Thanks for the input. I am however specifically looking for people that keep *PET* rats, and pet snakes.


That is why I did not vote.

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## Jenn

I'm surprised too Connie!!! 70% feed their loved ones to their loved ones!!!

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## littleindiangirl

> I'm surprised too Connie!!! 70% feed their loved ones to their loved ones!!!


Yea! Oh well. Poll is a bust!  :Razz:

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## RoyalGuardian

IMHO I think that you should do what works. If you love rats, have rats! If they create a problem I would make note of it and try to find a solution. If no solution works then I would say that you have to make a choice. I had a pet mouse for a while but he was  STINKY!!!! Not only were my Ball pythons on constant "FOOD MODE" i couldn't take them out without someone trying to tag me.

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## RoyalGuardian

Your poll wasn't a total bust! At least we know people aren't using those infernal "snake sausages" :Good Job:

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## littleindiangirl

Haha, yes I see, but the point was for people with PET rats to vote, and how they deal with both hobbies that seem to be at odds.

Keeping feeders isn't the same as keeping pet rats. Can feeders be pets as well? Yes, but it's all in how you look at it. If you don't see your rats as Pets, then why vote on a poll that is asking about pet rats with any other option but "I keep only snake pets"?  :Wink:

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## Michelle.C

Don't know if this helps...but. 

Yes I keep snakes and PET rats, I also feed F/T rats.  :Smile:

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_littleindiangirl_ (04-23-2009)

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## dizzy

I had many pet rats as a child and teenager. Since I've started keeping snakes I didn't really plan on having any more pet rats in the near future... But this one rat pup somehow just wouldn't get eaten, so I have kept her and I plan to breed her but at this point she is definitely a pet. I haven't actually named her yet but only because I really want to name her helmut and am trying to decide if that's an okay name for a girl.

I guess technically she's a future breeder but I do take her out and handle her...

There's no real moral dilemma for me. The food chain was around long before me and will be long after me. Snakes eat rats if I watch it happen or not, if I keep pet rats or not. I don't feel bad about my snakes eating and thriving.

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## Bruce Whitehead

One thing I left out... I do not feed off my retired breeders, even after they die. 

I have people with larger snakes that have offered to take them. And I KNOW I am being a bit ridiculous in this (as I get the food chain, etc.) but they go into the freezer and eventually all make it to my mother in law's garden to be buried.

One thing I left out... Ginger (the rat with the two art pieces dedicated to her in the previous post) has a third and final piece in the works.

It plays on martyrdom. She was the first rat to go into the garden btw... this summer her bones are being dug up and used in an art piece as well. Churches used to have the remains of martyrs buriend in the floor... this piece will play on that. There is a stage, a curtain of red crystals, a spot-light, etc... the most emotional of all 3 pieces dedicated to her.

Bruce

PS: Dang Connie... you're making me all misty for her (but that is not new - I still well up when I think about that rat).

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## kc261

Connie, I know you specifically asked about RATS, not mice or other species, but I decided I'd reply anyway because it might interest others who read this thread.  Hope you don't mind.

Before I move on to the mice, I will say that I fully expect that at some point in the future I will have pet rats as well as the snakes.  I've had rats in the past and absolutely love them.

When we started expanding the number of snakes we had, we decided to start a mouse colony.  We have both BPs and corn snakes, and so mice work well for both of them.  I stated, rather emphatically, to myself and the rest of the family that we were getting these as FEEDERS.  Even the breeders would be fed off when they were retired.  But that hasn't happened.  One male breeder managed to really work his way into the hearts of all of us.  When it was time to retire him, I just couldn't feed him off.  I decided I'd let him live out his days in the male grow-up cage, but that didn't work out.  It was causing too much fighting.  So I again decided he had to be fed off, believing his life with the young males fighting with him was too miserable and a quick death would be preferable.  I once again found I just couldn't do it.  So now he has his own cage.

I'm currently struggling with feeling guilty about him being by himself.  I know mice aren't quite as bad as rats by themselves, but I still think companionship would be good for him.  I may put a retired female with him, and if they end up having some litters, I won't care one way or the other.  I'm just a little concerned if it would begin to get too hard on the female.  For now, he gets lots of human interaction every day, and I hope that is good enough.

As far as the original question in this thread, how does one balance the conflict between keeping them as pets and using them as feeders... To me it really isn't much of a conflict.  I feel a little bad every time I feed off a mouse, the same way I feel a little bad every time I watch one of those nature shows and the predator catches its prey.  But, as others have said, that is the way the food chain works.  But there is a difference between those that are feeders and those that are pets.  I think like Bruce, I will find that the ones that become pets, whether unplanned such as the male mouse I discussed above, or if it was planned that way from the start, will never be fed off.

EDIT:  I did not vote in the poll, although I see you think others have been responding differently than you had intended anyway.

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## FlowRock

I own two pet rats, 3 snakes and around twenty mice by now, but I am thinking about starting a rat (feeder) project in the moment. My rats were my first pets in my new flat after my ex left me, before that I have been a proud cat daddy. The two ratties gave me a lot of fun and love. But then I rembered my old childhood desire to own snakes, a desire I was not able to give in, because my ex and my mom were snakephobiacs. So I got my snakes now. When I was a child my mom would have never allowed me to own mice (but I really really wanted this), because they stink. But now (for feeding issues) I started a mice breeding project, that works and even though I like every single fuzzybutt I breed, I do not hesitate to give it to my most loved pets. I guess it will be the same with rats.

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## spygirl

I keep both pet snakes and pet ASF's. I just started my ASF breeding project and they were supposed to be just a food source, but I ended up getting attached to a couple of the girls.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I had a pet mouse in high school named Shadow who lived for four years. She would chill in a sock on my desk and we would share plain almonds. She was my little buddy. The day she died, I was crying so hard that I couldn't dig her grave myself, so my little brother did it for me. 

It was after her death that I started to get into snakes. It never once bothered me that I was feeding the same species of a beloved pet to a new beloved pet. I come from a family that tries to sustain itself over buying. Meaning we have gardens, raise chickens, hunt, etc. Everything has it's place, circle of life and everything else that goes with it. Our dogs earn their keep by doing some sort of work. Even my shih tzu has her place by being worth her weight in gold in being a demo dog for my dog training sessions.

So I suppose it was in the way I was raised. Death never really bothered me. I respect it, but I don't fear it or am disturbed by it. So my short answer is yes, I keep both pet snakes and pet ASF's.  :Mouse2:   :Snake2:

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## Starbaby

Great thread. Its been interesting reading the posts in here, since this dilemma is the main reason I don't own a snake and probably never will. As much as I'm fascinated by them and would love to have one, I can't do it. Especially since the recent death of my hamster whom I only had for 8 months..I cried so much you would've thought my mama died!

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## truthsdeceit

Wow. Lots of people have responded.  :Smile: 
I just wanted to say that you can use my posts on you site if you like. 

And to make clear that I do keep pet rats and pet snakes. and voted accordingly.
I don't think I made it clear that they are PETS in my first post. I have 2 male rats who run loose and come for treats. And only one breeder female who is also spoiled despite her less than friendly disposition. If I was just breeding for feeders my males would have to go. Their oversized setup takes up too much space and having two males to one female is definitely the wrong ratio for breeding en-masse. So yeah, the rats and the snakes are both pets. But if I had to choose I'd go with the snakes, I think that's why it's no big crisis when I have to feed off rats. Though I doubt my boy rats will ever see the inside of a snake.  :Razz: 

The boys:




And my girls  :Razz:

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## MarkS

I raise both snakes and rats, but I don't consider the rats to be pets.  More like livestock.

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## MarkS

Oops, I tried to edit my post but it took too long.  What I meant to say was that I don't currently keep pet rats.  However in the past I have kept rats that I considered to be pets and had snakes at the same time.  It's really not that unusual and I never thought there was anything odd about it.  When my Dad was a kid growing up on a farm, he had a pet pig named Orville.  Orville would come when you called, would follow you around like a dog and loved to be petted and scratched behind the ears.   At the same time, they raised hogs on the farm for slaughter.  It's really not that unheard of, pets are pets and food is food.  I'm sure a lot of people who grew up on farms could tell you the same type of story.

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_littleindiangirl_ (06-24-2009)

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

I dislike rodents strongly, and I have no problem feeding them to snakes. I feel bad for those who struggle here, though.

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## littleindiangirl

Thanks for the replies everyone! It's nice to read through them all.  :Smile:

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## OFRD_GRL

Snakes, pet mouse. 

Feed pinky mice/fuzzies & rats/asf.....

I have no problem differentiating between the pet & the feeders. The feeders are there for just that and bought with the intent for feeding to the snakes. And are definitely not named... other than maybe steak or dinner or something funny like that.

The pet is housed completely differently and gets hugs and kisses from everyone in the house. And is named.

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## LaFilleClochette

we keep both and also feed rats ( and mice)  we feed frozen tho we did one time get live and had to euthenize them because we dont have the room to keep them alive- that was the hardest thing for me to do because i love all sorts of animals and they were so cute!  :Tears:  from now on the ones we feed are gonna be thawed....no more live to dead....   :Sad:

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## SlitherinSisters

I keep both. I had two pet rats before I ever got snakes. I just keep my pets separate from my breeders/feeders, that way I don't get too attached to the snake food. Although my breeders have become my pets and I couldn't kill them off at this point, they will just have to retire until they die of natural causes. Since I don't handle the feeder rats as much they don't really enjoy being held, although I will admit I do scratch or pet them whenever I'm in their cages. 

I'm not sure how I do it other than I grew up on a farm in which our "pet" pigs/ducks/rabbits/chickens/sheep etc. were butchered and put on the table for dinner. In fact I have three baby ducks I raised from eggs (in my home) we will be murdering and eating in the next week. Maybe that's how I do it  :Very Happy:

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## suzuki4life

> I raise both snakes and rats, but I don't consider the rats to be pets.  More like livestock.


exactly, they are to be treated humanely...

and anyone who wants to dissect that word might want to research where their hamburger comes from or their chicken. Striking a rat on the head properly is no more cruel than a bolt gun or a bleed funnel.

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## littleindiangirl

Except, wacking on the head is no where near as decisive as an instant bolt through the skull, and does not have such a high margin of error. (bleed funnel, gods) Whacking on the head is recommended for neonatal animals. You're comparing apples to oranges, because bolts are used to kill rats too, comparing whacking to bolt is not the same...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

This thread is about people who keep pet rats, not those who like to whack rats on the head.

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## kazboots

When the rats/mice/ASF are bought/born they are classified as food or pets, a pet will never be food although food can become pet if I want it to be. I don't allow myself to get attached to the food, but I love my pet rats, they are just as important to me as my pet snakes. I deal with the euthanasia of cats and dogs for no reason other than lack of homes while volunteering at the animal shelter and have even held animals for the shot so I guess at least the rats serve a purpose and its necessary for my snakes.

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## suzuki4life

> Except, wacking on the head is no where near as decisive as an instant bolt through the skull, and does not have such a high margin of error. (bleed funnel, gods) Whacking on the head is recommended for neonatal animals. You're comparing apples to oranges, because bolts are used to kill rats too, comparing whacking to bolt is not the same...  
> 
> This thread is about people who keep pet rats, not those who like to whack rats on the head.



a non penetrating bolt gun as used in kosher food does not go "through the skull". I relies on blunt force trauma as I stated before. Even penetrating bolt guns are not 100% effective...PETA has tons of info on this if you want proof.

And bleed funnels (which you didn't bother to even reply to) are used for mainly turkeys but sometimes chickens, the animals are palced in these upside down and their throats are cut...


but of course...this is okay but let's not strike a rat on the head.  :Wag of the finger:  :Wag of the finger:  :Wag of the finger:  :ROFL:

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## dr del

Hi,

You might not want to get info from PETA without some independant corroboration.

I also wouldn't rely on Herod for information on how to raise children.

Just sayin.

And the reason we are trying to make the point on how you kill an animal *you are legally responsible for*  has very little to do with how others choose to do it.


dr del

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## suzuki4life

> Hi,
> 
> You might not want to get info from PETA without some independant corroboration.
> 
> I also wouldn't rely on Herod for information on how to raise children.
> 
> Just sayin.
> 
> 
> dr del


hard to dispute their videos

I know how bolt guns work since I have relatives who are pig farmers. I know how effective and how "humane" they are also.

I just find it funny people raise a food source for another animal and treat it so delicately. However they don't seem to care how their own food sources are treated. I know what pigs are fed, hence I don't eat pork.

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## dr del

Hi,

It's probably related to the fact that how their breakfast was killed by other people has no chance of getting them charged with animal abuse and all their animals removed.

Maybe you have a totally different system over there but over here the animal welfare organizations care a great deal more about mammals than they do about reptiles.

They also don't have the training in most cases to be able to truly identify mistreatment of reptiles outside of the most extreme examples - but they *know* putting a mammal in a sack and swinging it against a wall is illegal and will prosecute happily and get you banned from keeping *any* animals at all for years as a result.

A problem avoided is far better than one you have to deal with later.


dr del

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## suzuki4life

> Hi,
> 
> It's probably related to the fact that how their breakfast was killed by other people has no chance of getting them charged with animal abuse and all their animals removed.
> 
> Maybe you have a totally different system over there but over here the animal welfare organizations care a great deal more about mammals than they do about reptiles.
> 
> They also don't have the training in most cases to be able to truly identify mistreatment of reptiles outside of the most extreme examples - but they *know* putting a mammal in a sack and swinging it against a wall is illegal and will prosecute happily and get you banned from keeping *any* animals at all for years as a result.
> 
> A problem avoided is far better than one you have to deal with later.
> ...


never seen an animal cruelty case in the US resulting from the care or intentional death of a rat.

I mean if we prosecuted someone for killing a rat by striking it on the head...we would have to outlaw snap traps.

Have you ever seen what decon does to a rat?

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## dr del

Hi,

The law makes a plain difference between an animal you own and a wild animal though.


dr del

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## suzuki4life

> Hi,
> 
> The law makes a plain difference between an animal you own and a wild animal though.
> 
> 
> dr del



yes but no....

they made coolant producers make their products animal friendly for all animals...not just neglected pets

Many states even went to making trappers use soft jaws on their traps.

So I disagree that government only takes into consideration the "feelings" of pets. As Dennis Leary says,"they just want to save the cute animals."

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## Artistry Exotics

I apologize for bringing up an old topic, but I loved reading everyone's responses and this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

Long before I kept snakes, I kept rats.  I think they're one of the best pets because they're so affectionate.  I even bred fancy rats for pets only for a little while in high school, and made sure that all of the babies went to pet only homes.  I didn't have anything against snakes or feeding rats to snakes, but wanted my babies that were bred to be pets to go as pets.

My last pet rat, Milli, passed away over a year ago.  It was rough, she'd grown a tumor and the vet was unable to remove it due to its location, so we made her comfortable as long as possible.  I told myself that I didn't want anymore pet rats, because the short lifespans were just too unfair.

I got my first snake around the one year anniversary of Milli's passing.  I still haven't been able to switch Harvey over to f/t, but would like to.  Harvey's hit and miss eating habits led me to keep Benjamin, a rat that I "made the mistake of" getting attached to.  Benjamin is a pet, and lives happily in another room of the house.  He spends a lot of time hanging out with me, riding on my shoulder as I go around the house, snuggling in my lap when I'm relaxing on the couch.  

I now have ten snakes, and feed some live and some f/t.  I'd like all the snakes to be eating f/t eventually, not just for the rodent's sake, but for the snakes' safety.

How can I feed rodents when I love them as pets too?  I have to separate it in my mind.  The rodents I feed to my snakes are bred as food.  They should still be treated humanely, but they are not pets.  They don't get socialized, they don't have names.  Right now, they get picked up at the pet store on feeding day and usually aren't around within the hour.  

Since I have so many snakes now, I'm tossing around the idea of setting up small mouse and rat breeding colonies.  I plan to breed albinos so that they all look the same and it'll be harder to single one out as cute.

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## gothkenny

Old post, but oh well.

I keep both rats, and snakes, but my rats much over-weigh the reptiles. I only feed f/t, and I have absolutly no problem with it. If I had to feed live though, I would without a thought, sell my reptiles. I love all animals, but the rats are the ones that love me, the ones I can come home to and they're happy to see me. Snakes are like really cool plants in my opinion, somthing to collect. If they ever made me feed live, which I would be VERY uncomfortable doing, then I wouldn't have them.

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## Brewster320

I keep 15 snakes and 4 rats. The rats are pets but when they breed I feed off the pinkies and fuzzie to my snakes. If a rats grows large enough to were it eyes are open I can kill it or feed it because i feel bad so then I just by frozen rats. Doesn't bother me if they are already dead.

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## Sonya610

> Old post, but oh well.
> 
> I keep both rats, and snakes, but my rats much over-weigh the reptiles. I only feed f/t, and I have absolutly no problem with it. If I had to feed live though, I would without a thought, sell my reptiles. I love all animals, but the rats are the ones that love me, the ones I can come home to and they're happy to see me. Snakes are like really cool plants in my opinion, somthing to collect. If they ever made me feed live, which I would be VERY uncomfortable doing, then I wouldn't have them.


I have had my BP for 3 years, she was originally on frozen so I figured cool...this will always be the case! LOL. I even moved to a remote small town secure in the knowledge I could order the finest frozen rats from TX anytime I wanted (closest store that sells live is 15 miles away, and they sometimes don't have any). Yes I have two pet rats (kept as pets but sort of a rescue situation) and my lovely BP decided she would rather starve than eat frozen.  

Anyway I finally broke down and purchased 4 feeders the other night (vs just one at a time). I feel bad about it too and googled "bonding with feeder rats" which brought me to this thread. I never thought I could feed live, but it is that or rehome my BP (which I did consider).Last night I picked up the 4 feeders and to my horror one was an adorable hoodie (just like my elderly pet) and I felt like quite hte evil best when I chose to feed him first, I knew if I didn't I could end up with another pet rat for 2+ years and while they are cute I would prefer not too.

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