# Colubrids > Hognose >  Hognose with mass/lump

## GoingPostal

Last week my Hognose refused food, then seemed to be struggling to pass something later in the week, there was liquid and solid urine passed but nothing else.  She refused again this week and I took her out to check what was up, her vent looked a mess with urate buildup, I soaked her a little and cleaned it off.  

Sunday night she passed some bloody fluid like a clot and Monday there was a mass up her body, before there was only a lump near her vent, now theres two.  She went to the vet today, xrays, needle aspirate the mass.  I thought maybe retained egg?  She laid a bunch this summer and we had an issue of her not being able to pass them when she was younger.  Vet says no, thats not it.  

Its not in her digestive tract but near her colon so they dont think its food.  Vet thought maybe abscess but didnt drain when they poked a needle in.  They didnt want to do an enema because of her already bleeding from the vent.  They got layers of tissue, blood and pus in the aspirate .  Suggested treatment so far is antibiotics (baytril) soak several times daily and return in a week.   

I wasnt at the appt, cant get off work at all right now so this is all second hand from my husband and it was a new vet, not the guy I have seen before and am confident in.  Any ideas or thoughts?  Im pretty concerned. 

X-ray I was sent attached 




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## bcr229

An MRI would show more about what's going on with a soft tissue infection than an x-ray.  Not many vets have them though.  Perhaps call around and see if there's anyone.

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*Bogertophis* (12-18-2018),_GoingPostal_ (12-18-2018)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

IMO if it was eggs that she did not passed she would probably be dead already, when animals remain egg bound for two long they basically go septic, that's why egg binding is something serious and that need to be addressed ASAP if it happened, so I would likely ruled that out too. Than again sometimes weird things happen. 

I agree that getting a picture of the soft tissue which cannot show on X-Ray would help, you could be looking as a cyst (+ abscess if caseous pus is present), or tumor.

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*Bogertophis* (12-18-2018),_GoingPostal_ (12-18-2018),_Jus1More_ (12-18-2018),_Sonny1318_ (12-22-2018)

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## GoingPostal

Ok if I cant find a vet to do an MRI?  Good to know trapped egg is pretty much out as an idea.  They did an ultrasound too judging by the pic he sent 



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## GoingPostal

Thoughts on the treatment plan?  Its .1ml of baytril daily for ten days plus soaks and returning to vet in approx a week.  


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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Thoughts on the treatment plan?  Its .1ml of baytril daily for ten days plus soaks and returning to vet in approx a week.  
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well any time you have an infection you want a broad spectrum anti-biotic but that's in the short term, because the goal is to figure out what is going on, what the mass is causing the infection and whether or not it can be removed.

As far as dosage it depends on the concentration the most common is 2.7% which is prescribed between 5 to 10 mg per KG (1000 grams)

So 5 mg/kg dose = 0.22 ml or cc
or 10 mg/kg dose = 0.44 ml or cc

Now will whatever is in there pass? Well it depends on what it is and that I do not have the answer but it will be interesting to see what it is.

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*Bogertophis* (12-18-2018),_GoingPostal_ (12-18-2018),_Jus1More_ (12-18-2018)

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## Txonthebayou

Did they do a fecal or blood work? I'm not an expert on reptiles but just from looking at the xray I'd suspect some kind of impaction or parasites. There could be a cyst, do snakes have hormonal issues? Or maybe it is a foreign body that has tissue built up around it? 

Antibiotics won't hurt, there's infection somewhere. I normally lurk but thought I'd throw out more suggestions since your vet is stumped. A MRI is a good suggestion, I'm sorry your snake is sick. I hope they figure out what's going on.

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*Bogertophis* (12-19-2018),_GoingPostal_ (12-19-2018)

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## GoingPostal

No fecal or bloodwork was done.  Or suggested afaik but I can definitely bring up next week.  If she makes it that long, I'm not happy with the amount of blood she is loosing at all.  How much blood can a tiny snake have?  She's only eaten f/t mice for years so parasite should be out right?

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*Bogertophis* (12-21-2018)

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## GoingPostal

Following the treatment plan, last night was the first night she didn't leave a bloody mess in the case, still a small amount of blood but also some urine so maybe encouraging?  Have an appt set up for next Thursday for her recheck.

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*Bogertophis* (12-21-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Poor little snake...I hope she gets well... :Please:    I'd have been just as concerned with the "bloody mess" in the cage, btw, and you're right, they cannot afford to lose 
much...that's how mites are able to kill snakes, the snakes body goes into shock.

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_GoingPostal_ (12-21-2018)

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## Sonny1318

Sorry to hear, wish you the best of luck getting her better.

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## GoingPostal

Well our Thurs appt had to get rescheduled due to weather, so ended up going today.  She has been passing blood daily trying to push out waste and this "cyst/tumor/mystery lump".  She did pass a large hard dried waste piece on Thursday and some more moved down which she passed a little on the ride to the vet and he performed an enema to remove the rest.  We think the cyst has been making her constipated and that's most of the issue at hand.  I'm supposed to continue with antibiotics and soaks for another ten days, the cyst has not moved or changed.   He wants me to try feeding her in a week or so.  I only have adult mice or day old chicks for the little prey available so am debating if I should order smaller prey or chop something up, I think feeding her smallest meals might be crucial right now.  Playing it by ear.

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*Bogertophis* (12-29-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Poor little snake...I hope this all works out for the good, & soon.  Your prey (on hand) all sounds way too big for her & I've never had success feeding snakes 
with 'chopped up' items, personally.

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## dr del

If I'm remembering right snake pus ( the stuff inside the cyst ) is solid and generally won't go away without being surgically removed - they can't be "drained" like cysts in mammals etc. Hope the li'l guy feels better soon though.  :Good Job:

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*bcr229* (12-30-2018),*Bogertophis* (12-30-2018)

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## GoingPostal

So we don't know if it's actually a cyst or tumor or infection or what the deal is.  Neither vet has suggested going in and removing at this point.  Now the mystery lump has either moved or gone down, it's not a lump on her side any more. Not passing any blood or anything else since the appt.   She's been not moving around a lot lately but still seems alert.  I'm going to order some smaller prey to offer also.

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*Bogertophis* (02-25-2019)

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## GoingPostal

Havent updated as theres been really no change, finished course of antibiotics, the lump went down somewhat to not outwardly visible but still seemed there if I felt her.  

I started offering food again, smaller and less frequently to see if things were passing, did not want another clog happening.  Still doing occasional soaks.  Shes passed urates but no fecal waste.  Not leaking fluid or struggling to pass anything so I was cautiously optimistic.   

Today I found this in the cage, which I took apart (2nd pic) and it looks to me very much like a leftover slug after all.  I chopped into it and it was gooey inside .  Hoping this will be the end of this ordeal.  








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*bcr229* (02-24-2019),*Bogertophis* (02-25-2019),dr del (02-25-2019),_FollowTheSun_ (02-24-2019)

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## Dianne

Hope this resolves the issue for you and your little one starts to recover.

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_GoingPostal_ (02-25-2019)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

It's amazing that she actually went that long without issue since it was an egg usually things start going down the hill pretty fast if an egg stay in the female.

Glad it's an happy ending.

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_GoingPostal_ (02-25-2019)

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## Bogertophis

Wow, let's hope this is all resolved now.

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_GoingPostal_ (02-25-2019)

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## GoingPostal

She passed another small bit of white fatty looking stuff and two good sized solid very normal appearing feces later that evening.  Yay for poop and she hasnt had a good one like this on her own since this started.  Im so relieved and bet shes feeling a lot better too.  What a roller coaster.  


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*Bogertophis* (02-25-2019),dr del (02-25-2019)

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## GoingPostal

Went back and looked at my records, she laid slugs March 2018.  So thats how long this egg has been in there.  


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*Bogertophis* (02-25-2019)

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## FollowTheSun

:Surprised:  Wow! Your little snake is a big trooper! I'm glad she's okay and survived this ordeal! Thanks for posting all this, I am glad it's a happy ending

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_GoingPostal_ (02-25-2019)

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## GoingPostal

Seems easier to bump this to keep it all together.  The Hognose did fine through most of 2019 after passing those slugs finally.  November 2019 I noticed she had yet another lump!  She wasn't struggling to pass it and I gave her awhile hoping it would pass with soaks but soon became clear we had another issue.  

Back to the vet, more xrays, looks like another ! They try to get it out, do an enema, lube, fluid drained from the egg.  They can't get it out.  It's definitely starting to block her from passing feces so I've stopped offering food until this is cleared out, she's not happy about this at all.  

I brought her back in last week, vet drained more out, more stuff up the butt, they could not get it out and ended up prolapsing her a little trying which went back in right away but caused some bleeding.  They recommend a vet with more experience saying she may need surgery.  I'm pretty rural so had to call another five vets between 3-5 hours away to find one that could help us out.  

Today I trucked her down to a new vet.  Waiting in the room for the dr, I check on her again and am greeted by a horrendous odor.    She finally just passed them after 2.5 months of struggle.  We do another X-ray just to make sure but looks like just blocked up feces left.  

I'm happy she passed them again but definitely concerned why this an issue, one piece was an encapsulated egg, the other just looked like layers of tissue.  But why do they get stuck in the same spot when she clearly can pass them?  

First X-ray of this round 




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*Bogertophis* (01-23-2020)

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## GoingPostal

Also I've given in and am calling her "Eggy" now, the vets all seem so baffled that my snakes aren't named.  

Her in the vet office, right when I smelt it.  




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*Bogertophis* (01-23-2020)

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## Bogertophis

No idea why...poor little hoggy!  I have middle-aged unbred Florida rat snakes (Yellow x Gulf Hammock x ?) that every year produce double clutches of eggs, like 2
dozen or more for the first clutch & upper teens for the second clutch...some are clearly slugs while many others look like good eggs (& in fact this year I incubated 
the good ones & THREE of them hatched!?  :Surprised:  ).  These big girls make me nervous, I wish they'd quit producing eggs...  Years ago, I lost a nice Calif.desert king to 
egg-binding & she'd never bred either.  Years further back, I had a rat snake that had an ectopic pregnancy (the eggs were not in the oviducts) & I was fortunate to 
find a vet that successfully spayed her- that solved the problem.  Good luck with yours...

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_GoingPostal_ (01-23-2020)

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## bcr229

I was also going to suggest spaying since it sounds like she has an internal issue that prevents eggs from passing easily.

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_GoingPostal_ (01-23-2020)

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## GoingPostal

> I was also going to suggest spaying since it sounds like she has an internal issue that prevents eggs from passing easily.


Problem is no vet really wants to do it at this point, being such an invasive surgery.  I guess we will see if it continues to be an issue with her.  This vet was going to look into whether anyone had tried hormone treatment, like a des implant that they put in various animals already.  It would likely cost me nearly 2k to get a spay on her between vet costs and travel expenses so that's worst case scenario but if it gets to having to open her up at all I'd rather have it done and avoid more repeats.

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## bcr229

> Problem is no vet really wants to do it at this point, being such an invasive surgery.  I guess we will see if it continues to be an issue with her.  This vet was going to look into whether anyone had tried hormone treatment, like a des implant that they put in various animals already.  It would likely cost me nearly 2k to get a spay on her between vet costs and travel expenses so that's worst case scenario but if it gets to having to open her up at all I'd rather have it done and avoid more repeats.


Since the surgery doesn't need to be done immediately you can call around to the exotics specialists nationwide, do a consultation, see what they suggest to stop her from cycling, etc.  I know that SEAVS gets reptiles shipped in from all over for treatment.

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*Bogertophis* (01-23-2020),_GoingPostal_ (01-23-2020)

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## Bogertophis

> Problem is no vet really wants to do it at this point, being such an invasive surgery.  I guess we will see if it continues to be an issue with her.  This vet was going to look into whether anyone had tried hormone treatment, like a des implant that they put in various animals already.  It would likely cost me nearly 2k to get a spay on her between vet costs and travel expenses so that's worst case scenario but if it gets to having to open her up at all I'd rather have it done and avoid more repeats.


It doesn't help that she's such a small snake either.  FYI, when I had a snake spayed I lived in So. Calif. & took her to the vet who had both a private practice & also worked for the Living Desert Zoological Park in Palm Springs, so you might check with nearby zoos to find someone they can recommend who doesn't work exclusively for them.  I don't recall what the surgery cost me (it's been quite a few years) but I guarantee it wasn't anything like 2k...nearest I can recall it was about $500 & was a total success.

Good luck!

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_GoingPostal_ (01-23-2020)

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## GoingPostal

I really wish the weather was nicer, shipping her would expand my options and be a ton easier.  Multiple vets recommended I take her to Como Park Vet in St. 80, which would be at minimum two separate overnight trips, they need an exam before surgery and won't do them same day.  I was told they would be the most expensive option.  Cedar Lake Pets is slightly closer and can do same day, they quoted me 900-1300 for surgery + exam.  There's exotics vets in Garrison and Fargo, both about four hours from me I'd have to call back and see what they would charge, one place was overbooked for a long time and the other recommended the vet we ended up seeing.  Or I can cross the border and go to Winnipeg, the exchange rate would help me a little.  On the plus side I have located several new exotics vets within driving distance.

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## Bogertophis

Keeping my fingers crossed that you find a good solution, something within reason for cost & distance.  It's truly the pits to deal with this in the winter.   :Sad:

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## GoingPostal

ARRRGGGGHHH! Apparently it's time for our yearly egg lump.  In my reptile room checking on everyone last night, cleaning cages and noticed she's got a slight swelling about 2/3 down, took her out to feel and it 100% feels like an egg.  I was finally starting to look at her like a decent snake and not just a PITA too.  Cross your fingers she decides to pass this on her own although maybe we will take her on a long car ride just to help things along.  Now that I have some debt paid down and money in savings I'll have to look into options for fixing her somehow if she can't.  I wonder if it's worth taking her in locally to get an xray and see if there's more I'm not feeling or wait and bit and see if it moves down quickly.

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*Bogertophis* (01-06-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> ARRRGGGGHHH! Apparently it's time for our yearly egg lump.  In my reptile room checking on everyone last night, cleaning cages and noticed she's got a slight swelling about 2/3 down, took her out to feel and it 100% feels like an egg.  I was finally starting to look at her like a decent snake and not just a PITA too.  Cross your fingers she decides to pass this on her own although maybe we will take her on a long car ride just to help things along.  Now that I have some debt paid down and money in savings I'll have to look into options for fixing her somehow if she can't.  I wonder if it's worth taking her in locally to get an xray and see if there's more I'm not feeling or wait and bit and see if it moves down quickly.


What lousy luck.  I hate it when snakes just keep trying to reproduce- egg-binding killed a beautiful young unbred Cal-king I had years back- it's just not easily dealt with. 
I still have 2 adult FL rat snakes that lay dozens of eggs every year (double-clutches, too), but so far, none of their eggs ever get stuck.  And some have been parthenogenetically viable too, I made the mistake of incubating the eggs that looked good the summer of 2019, & now I have 3 more snakes... :Surprised:   (so much for that bright idea!)  Hope you get her sorted out safely.

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_GoingPostal_ (01-06-2021)

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## GoingPostal

> What lousy luck.  I hate it when snakes just keep trying to reproduce- egg-binding killed a beautiful young unbred Cal-king I had years back- it's just not easily dealt with. 
> I still have 2 adult FL rat snakes that lay dozens of eggs every year (double-clutches, too), but so far, none of their eggs ever get stuck.  And some have been parthenogenetically viable too, I made the mistake of incubating the eggs that looked good the summer of 2019, & now I have 3 more snakes...  (so much for that bright idea!)  Hope you get her sorted out safely.


It's really frustrating because I was originally supposed to a male hognose, I prefer males because I wanted to avoid this lol.  I read about your rat snakes, can't help but giggle a bit, curiosity alone would likely have me doing the same thing if she ever had eggs that looked good but I sure don't want any more snakes causing me problems like she does.

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*Bogertophis* (01-06-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> It's really frustrating because I was originally supposed to a male hognose, I prefer males because I wanted to avoid this lol.  I read about your rat snakes, can't help but giggle a bit, curiosity alone would likely have me doing the same thing if she ever had eggs that looked good but I sure don't want any more snakes causing me problems like she does.


That was it, my curiosity!  Oops!  I'd bred & raised snakes before, so I knew what good eggs look like, I just couldn't believe there were so many!?  I thought they'd all go bad, & when they didn't, it was too late.  They're cool snakes, for sure, but I'm not wanting so many pets any more- I've been at this for a long time.  Thanks for admitting that you'd have been curious too, lol.  I don't feel so bad now.  Good luck with Ms. PITA.   :Please:

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_GoingPostal_ (01-07-2021)

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