# Feeders > Breeding Rats >  Rat Losing Fur???

## Balls Out Morphs

I started my own rat colony about 2 weeks ago and hand selected 12 females and 6 males to get it started all from the same source. Everything has been going great and everyone seems to be getting along, but today when I came home from work and did my rounds I noticed one of my favorite females missing hair. Has anyone ever seen this and if so do you know what causes it?







Should I separate her from the rest of the group and is there anything to do for it?

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## Rhasputin

Search her for mites, could be that.

I don't have experience with ringworm, but I don't think it causes a mark like that.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## John1982

First thing I thought when I saw those pictures was ringworm. I'd get that girl into isolation and likewise not bring any of her previous tub mates into contact with your other rats until you know for sure what you're dealing with. I know ringworm(fungal infection) is quite contagious and is passed by contact.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## Balls Out Morphs

I have checked her and a good handful of the others and don't see any mites, but I did find some dirt around the follicles of their fur. I just handled her last night and she was fine. What can I treat my colony with as a preventive measure to assure none of them are carrying anything?

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## Amon Ra Reptiles

Kinda looks like ringworm . That can be treated with medication from a vet. But honestly if it is I would just cull your colony and wash down all tacks with bleach and start over . It's highly contagious and will spread to all your rats and even you. Also if you don't know it's not actually a worm. It's a fungus. Why they call it ringworm I duno lol. 
    It could be mites. Again if it's mites you may as well start over. They are hard to get rid of and if you buy the stuff to treat your rats great, but you can't feed them to your snakes. 
   Or could just be an irritation.

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## satomi325

I'm thinking ringworm as well.
Quarantine her and the rest of her tubmates. But not together since they're potentially infected.
And change their bedding. Contaminated bedding can also carry ringworm.

Try to limit your contact with the infected and possible infected. You personally can pass ringworm to the healthy ones if you don't be careful. So if you want to keep your colony clean, be sure to wash up before handling the others. 

You can take your rat to the vet for a skin scrape to make sure it's ringworm. But if you're sure it's ringworm , I bet you can just ask for some ringworm meds.

Anti-fungal creams will work as well.

Good luck

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## Balls Out Morphs

I don't see any irritation to the skin itself though other than a few little scraps. Could the other rats in the tub do something like this? I looked up ringworm and all the photos I looked at look nothing like this other than the spot is a circular shape. I swear it almost looks like her hair has been chewed off but I know she couldn't have done this to herself. I know they're flexible but not that flexible.

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Annageckos (01-25-2012)

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## mkeller13

That really does look like ringworm and as above said it is contagious to humans.

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## Balls Out Morphs

I have also read the following at many different websites;

Hair Loss"There are two main causes of bald spots in rats. The most common is barbering, a behavior where a rat obsessively grooms itself or another rat to the point of nibbling off the hair. The result is bald patches or areas where the hair looks like its had a bad haircut. Usually there is no damage to the skin, but sometimes there can be scabs. The most common areas for self-barbering are the front legs and stomach. The most common areas for barbering another rat are on the head, face, neck, and shoulders. These bald spots are not usually symmetrical. Because this behavior doesn't usually cause any health problems, there is no reason to separate a barber from her roommates, unless you are showing your rats. Another cause of bald spots is fungus 
Another type of hair loss is a general thinning of the hair. This can occur in a rat infested with lice or tropical rat mites. Although in these cases the rat usually doesn't self-inflict scabs, constant scratching can cause general hair loss, most commonly on the back. Rex rats may tend to have thinning hair as they grow older or if they are stressed due to disease. 

In some other animals, such as dogs and cats, a hormone problem can cause hair thinning, although I havent seen this in rats. This type of hair loss is usually seen on the flanks, hindquarters and sometimes the stomach and is usually symmetrical." 

I have separated the three that are housed together from the rest of the group. I decided to get up a little earlier this morning to check on them to see if things had worsened through the night. As I was sitting in the room I noticed that the male would grab the females by the back (shoulder area) and forcefully hold them down. It almost seemed like he was biting them? The female without the missing hair wouldn't stand for this and would put up a fight. The female that is missing her hair for whatever reason didn't really fight back but she did make sounds that did not sound as if it were an enjoyable treatment. 

I don't plan to "cull" off my entire colony because of this and plan to continue with a topical crème to help stop/prevent ringworm. During my reading last night I read that most rats are carrying ringworm but it doesn't affect them. I also read that for ringworm to affect anyone/anything it must enter the skin through a cut/scratch/break in the skin. My thinking now is that if the male was biting and broke her skin that it could have resulted in her getting ringworm.

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## MikeM75

It looks like excessive grooming to me as well.  Another rat or the same rat just nibbled too much.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## snakesRkewl

Mites + ringworm is what it looks like to me, been there done that.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## Balls Out Morphs

> It looks like excessive grooming to me as well.  Another rat or the same rat just nibbled too much.


I've looked at hundreds of photos of Ringworm and this just doesn't look like that. There aren't any sores on the skin other than a couple little places that you can see in the pics, but they look nothing like Ringworm. After seeing the male grabbing her by the back of the neck and forcefully holding her down I'm really starting to think he's the culprit. For the time being I have left all three in the same tub together and will check on them tonight when I get home from work.

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## snakesRkewl

Maybe there is no ringworm, I can't see any for sure, but the hair loss looks like mites.(think mange...)
These same mites carry ringworm.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## Balls Out Morphs

> Mites + ringworm is what it looks like to me, been there done that.


Is there anything I give the entire colony to rid/prevent both the mites and Ringworm? Keeping their tubs clean is no problem; I keep them cleaner than most pets I've seen. I know these guys are really just feeders but I care for them as much as any other animal living in my house. Starting completely over wouldn't be that bad being that I've only had them for a couple weeks but here in VA everyone gets their rats from the same place so if I started over the stock would be from the same source. 

A few of them seem to have the "sneezes" also, is there anything I can give the entire group to rid them of this also?

I've got to get this right in order to produce my own feeders or I will not be able to afford my growing collection of snakes.

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## snakesRkewl

Ivermectin paste, hope your rats don't bite  :Smile: 

Here's a good read up...http://ratguide.com/health/integumen...oparasites.php

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## jasbus

You say she was fine the day before?  No obvious skin irritation?  Then, my call is either mites, or overgrooming.  With the little blood spots around the perimeter, it looks more like a grooming issue...  I see little spots around her head as well, looks like more blood spotting.  If you can check her fur around the neck and underbelly for more of these spots, it may be parasites.
But, judging by what you say, nothing the day before, I call grooming.

Another issue I find in rats and fur loss is, an improper diet.  If their food source is not correct, they can get hot spots, just like a dog or cat.  In rodents, it's usually from too much protein.  It generally takes several months to become a problem though.  Do you know what the breeder was using for rodent diet?  Generally, a protein of 17--19% is perfect for rats, lower range if you're not breeding them.  But, like I said, it usually takes several months for diet related issues to become obvious.

Ringworm usually starts with a little hair loss in a patch, then after several days, you see the classic ringworm and the hair comes off on that spot.  And, the spot has a ring of dark around it.  If the rats aren't scratching alot, it's probably an overgrooming issue.  It doesn't look like ringworm, but I've been fooled before!

The only real other common fur loss issue is gonna be molting, but 90% of the time molting happens with the fine new fur already in place.  Molting can happen in round spots that can "resemble" ringworm, and some people(Rasputin) will argue that can never happen, but every rat and every molt is different.

Personally, I'd cull the rat.  Ringworm is very contagious, but sometimes you only see it in one rat, and it never spreads. But, it's not worth the few bucks to wait and find out in my opinion.
If you want to isolate her and just wait and see, it only takes a few days for the ringworm to totally be obvious.  Any over the counter jock itch or athletes foot spray will cure it, but you have to wait weeks for the anti-fungal med to clear out before you can safely use the female again.
Feed her off, and move on, the easiest, safest and smartest way to get on with life in my opinion....

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012),snakesRkewl (01-25-2012)

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## jasbus

> Is there anything I give the entire colony to rid/prevent both the mites and Ringworm? Keeping their tubs clean is no problem; I keep them cleaner than most pets I've seen. I know these guys are really just feeders but I care for them as much as any other animal living in my house. Starting completely over wouldn't be that bad being that I've only had them for a couple weeks but here in VA everyone gets their rats from the same place so if I started over the stock would be from the same source. 
> 
> A few of them seem to have the "sneezes" also, is there anything I can give the entire group to rid them of this also?
> 
> I've got to get this right in order to produce my own feeders or I will not be able to afford my growing collection of snakes.


Mites don't carry ringworm... Ringworm is a fungus, it's found everywhere.  You have to physically come into contact with it to contract it.  That usually means, direct contact with another being that either has it, or is carrying it.  I had a cat once that got it, and gave it to my daughter.  What a nightmare...  It took months to totally cure both of them, but no one else in my family got it...  Just when I thought either my daughter or the cat was clean, another spot would show up...  It sucked!!
I have had a couple of rats with ringworm over the years, but I usually just cull off anything that even remotely looks like a disease or fungus or sickly rat...
As for mites, I started using PAM for my reptile enclosures several years ago.  When I moved my store to a new building about 3 years ago, we started getting mites in our rodents, bad, like overnight explosion...  I climbed into the attic space, and found several squirrel nests that were just crawling with mites.  Having a pet store, you can't obviously just spray chemicals around.  I called several exterminators, but none would touch a pet store, for obvious liability reasons.  So, I went on a crusade.  Calling anyone I knew who raises rodents/snakes/etc... The only thing I kept consistantly hearing was PAM, PAM, PAM.  Having been using it already for my reptile enclosures, of course, I started using it on my rodent racks and caging.  But, after a couple of weeks of going through several cans of $18/can PAM, it hit me to look at the main ingredient(I'm not too slow :Wink: )...  Permitherin.  Ok, find it in another product that is cheaper.  HotShot Bedbug and Flea spray, $10/gallon at the hardware store.  It's half the dosage of PAM, perfect.  Been using it since, and I haven't seen a mite since....  I buy it by the case, and keep it on hand.  I spray the perimeter of each tub every week when I clean.  I have never had any issues using it, but my rat building are very well ventilated, which I think is very important when using any insecticide in proximity of animals...

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## Balls Out Morphs

Thank you for your input "Jasbus", you defiantly sound like you know what youre talking about. And the answer is yes she had no sign of sickness or the bald spot the day before yesterday and she wasn't acting sick at all last night. Their diet main diet consist of "Native Earth" 18% and every other day I give each tub a small bowl full of a mix I make out of; reg cheerios, puffed wheat, raisin brain, dry split peas, dry lentils, unsalted peanuts in the shell, rolled oats, cracked corn, black oil sunflower seeds, dry tri colored vegi pasta, and dried cherries. The breeder they came from says he uses rat block.

Are there any meds/treatments that I can give my entire group to kill any colds, possible RI's, mites, etc? I would like to have all of them as healthy as possible before the babies start coming so things don't get passed on to them. I know it may take time and some work but I'm willing to do whatever to get this group healthy.

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## jasbus

Yeah, like I said, it sounds like a grooming issue.  Just keep an eye on it, make sure it doesn't spread if you decide to keep her.

As for sniffles, it's not uncommon.  Make sure they are in a clean environment, and use low dust bedding.  I've been using kiln dried pine for a couple of decades without much incident.  Of course, nothing is fool-proof, there will always be a rat or 12 that get sick, no matter what you use for bedding.  I sell alot of aspen bedding in my store, but most people buy the pine for rodents.  I go through 4-5 huge bales of pine a week, so aspen is not an option for me, it's just not worth the extra 40-45% price.
Best practice is to clean often, and cull out weak lines.  An occasional sniffle does not mean sick rats.  Even the cleanest low dust bedding has dust...  Just keep an eye on them, and make sure you don't get a myco flareup...
Your babies are going to be the ones that suffer from RI's or other sickness.  Adult rats may not even show signs of being sick, that will kill weak babies.  I try to keep my rat barns at a relative constant temp, to stop temps goin g up and down too much.  Anything above 65 up to about 85 is fine, but obviously a constant mid range is preferred.  Mine stay around 68-70 year round, but I onl;y really worry about it this time of year.  Summer, often I will leave the doors open for fresh air, so the temp will go up or down quite a bit.

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## satomi325

> Are there any meds/treatments that I can give my entire group to kill any colds, possible RI's, mites, etc? I would like to have all of them as healthy as possible before the babies start coming so things don't get passed on to them. I know it may take time and some work but I'm willing to do whatever to get this group healthy.


For RI, you can mix Tetracycline powder into their water. Tetracycline is an antibiotic that clears up infections. You can find Tetracycline in the fish section of pet stores. Each box usually has a couple packets. The one I get comes w/ 10 packets.

I don't know if you have an automatic watering system or individual bottles, but 1 packet can be used in a 16oz water bottle. But be sure to check the box for dosage to water ratio.

A few vet techs and I have used this method to cure mild and severe RIs. I've treated rats who were sneezing till their noses bled with this stuff and it worked great. Rats may take 1-3 weeks to recover.

It definitely saves the trouble of going to the vet and buying meds from them.
Also it's totally safe for rats of all ages and pregnant/nursing rats. Most vets will prescribe baytrill for RI, and that is not safe for growing/pregnant/nursing rats.

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## Rhasputin

I would go ahead and treat for parasites just in case. A bottle of iver on is only $15-$20 and you dilute it 4 parts water to 1 part medicine for rats, so you can keep it around for a long time. It's really a must have if you're breeding rodents.  :Smile:

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## Balls Out Morphs

> For RI, you can mix Tetracycline powder into their water. Tetracycline is an antibiotic that clears up infections. You can find Tetracycline in the fish section of pet stores. Each box usually has a couple packets. The one I get comes w/ 10 packets.
> 
> I don't know if you have an automatic watering system or individual bottles, but 1 packet can be used in a 16oz water bottle. But be sure to check the box for dosage to water ratio.
> 
> A few vet techs and I have used this method to cure mild and severe RIs. I've treated rats who were sneezing till their noses bled with this stuff and it worked great. Rats may take 1-3 weeks to recover.
> 
> It definitely saves the trouble of going to the vet and buying meds from them.
> Also it's totally safe for rats of all ages and pregnant/nursing rats. Most vets will prescribe baytrill for RI, and that is not safe for growing/pregnant/nursing rats.


I use a water system that I purchased through RBI so would it be safe to mix this and give it to everyone as a preventive measure? There were a few with a slight redness around the nostrils when I first brought them home but that seems to have cleared up. 

Is there anything that you would recommend to rid the group of mites/lice/fleas etc as a preventive measure?

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## jasbus

Pour on treatments work, and they work great, but, you have to follow a schedule, and it only keeps the mites off of the rats that are treated...  So, you have to keep treating them, and figure out how to keep up with all of the offspring as well..
Even at a dozen rats, this is tedious...  The ingestible, I can't even imagine the pain in the arse...

I can't even fathom doing 300-400 rats, and their offspring... much less keeping up with who/when/how much.  I know not everyone keeps that many, but holy cow, that would be a nightmare.
Spray the tubs with permitherin, keeps the little buggers away completely...

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## RichsBallPythons

If you dont want to deal with the HotShot Gallon Mixing, Pick up Bedding Spray for Lice. It will work for the Mites,fleas,lice rats get.

Just spray the bare tub, toss in bedding and spay top layer of bedding. Do so once a week depending how bad it gets.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## Balls Out Morphs

> Pour on treatments work, and they work great, but, you have to follow a schedule, and it only keeps the mites off of the rats that are treated...  So, you have to keep treating them, and figure out how to keep up with all of the offspring as well..
> Even at a dozen rats, this is tedious...  The ingestible, I can't even imagine the pain in the arse...
> 
> I can't even fathom doing 300-400 rats, and their offspring... much less keeping up with who/when/how much.  I know not everyone keeps that many, but holy cow, that would be a nightmare.
> Spray the tubs with permitherin, keeps the little buggers away completely...


If the mites are killed off once and if there are no outsiders brought into the colony how would the mites come back? I keep my rats and snakes in the same room on the second story of my house and no one comes in contact with them prior to washing up outside the room and then applying hand sanitizer once they're in the room. To keep my kids from playing with the rats I allow each of them to house (2) each in their rooms as pets so they don't disturb mine. I just don't understand how they would keep coming back if they were all killed once? This is the reason I keep asking about what preventive measures I can take now to wipe sickness/parasites out of my colony before it gets any bigger.

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## RichsBallPythons

> If the mites are killed off once and if there are no outsiders brought into the colony how would the mites come back? I keep my rats and snakes in the same room on the second story of my house and no one comes in contact with them prior to washing up outside the room and then applying hand sanitizer once they're in the room. To keep my kids from playing with the rats I allow each of them to house (2) each in their rooms as pets so they don't disturb mine. I just don't understand how they would keep coming back if they were all killed once? This is the reason I keep asking about what preventive measures I can take now to wipe sickness/parasites out of my colony before it gets any bigger.


Eggs laid before the livign ones are killed. You need to keep on the treatment to keep killing them and the eggs. In winter time keep your bedding outside in garage or somewhere. The cold will kill the living ones and any newly hatched ones. Treat the rack and bedding with spray and your good to go.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## jasbus

Once they lay eggs, it's tough to kill them.  They will travel a pretty good distance to lay eggs.  they like to go high and in a tight area, like the edge of an aquarium or the rail of a rack, etc.  Even if you manage to spray the egg, it doesn't always kill it off.  So, by the time you realize they are back, it's too late.  
I spray every week, I don't miss a week.  
My reptiles, I spray every month, I don't miss a month.

I've dealt with both reptile mites and rodent mites, I will never deal with them again!!!  I spray.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## satomi325

> I use a water system that I purchased through RBI so would it be safe to mix this and give it to everyone as a preventive measure? There were a few with a slight redness around the nostrils when I first brought them home but that seems to have cleared up. 
> 
> Is there anything that you would recommend to rid the group of mites/lice/fleas etc as a preventive measure?


It is safe to use for everyone, sick or healthy. However, I don't think this could be used as a preventative measure. Only as treatment. There are dosages for single animals, but the the dosages I use are more diluted to use for group housing. I forgot to mention above, each of the packets I use contain 500mg. And I use 1 packet/16 oz. You can change the concentrations depending how severe the infection is, but I had no problems with 500mg/16 oz. A box of 10 packets was $12 for me, but I'm sure prices vary from place to place. It's always handy to have just in case there are sneezy rats.

For a preventative measure, the only thing you could do is keep a clean and well ventilated environment. Don't neglect weekly cleaning. If you have to, you may have to clean twice a week. Ammonium build up is one of the lead causes of RI next to incorrect bedding material and lack of ventilation.

I don't have anything else to add about the mite/lice/flea preventative that others haven't already said.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## Annageckos

The best preventive measure is keeping everyone clean and healthy. It is a bad idea to give antibiotics unless you know what you are treating. That is how resistant strains of bacteria/viruses come about. If your animals are healthy and clean then mites or lice shouldn't be a problem. But check them over for mites, I can't tell from the photo if the specks on that rat is scabs or mites. It looks nothing like ringworm. I have had ringworm before, got it from digging in the garden.(it's a fungus) It wasn't too hard to get rid of, took maybe a two weeks.

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Balls Out Morphs (01-25-2012)

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## Balls Out Morphs

I greatly appreciate everyones input. I got gloved up and checked out the "infected tub" which is now the we're in "heat" tub. I combed through their fur and didn't find anything, honestly they're amazingly clean. The only place I found anything on the "infected" girl was just around the bald spot which seemed to be stuck scab and it rubbed right off. The other two in the tub are spotless under and in their fur. I'm gonna keep my eye on um for a few days before I go feeding off anybody.

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