# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Unexpected Eggs

## santino34

Hi guys.  This is my first post and I want to say hi before telling my story.  I am 46 and I have had the same BP since I was 21 and in college.  Her name is Eptius and I have NEVER had her near another BP or tried to breed her.  I have had her in several types of different cages over the years, but I recently put her in a critter cage with a plastic hide rock after my family moved to a new home.

My mom had been fighting cancer since last year so I had been very busy with trips to NW Indiana all Spring.  I hadnt been able to pay Epty much attention.  All I knew was that she wasnt eating and had 2 sheds very close together.  I also didnt see much of her because she was spending a lot of time in her hide rock.  My wife kept telling me that she thought something was wrong with Epty, but I just thought she wasnt hungry.

My mom passed during June and I didnt see Epty until well after the funeral (about 1.5 weeks).  One Saturday, I lifted the rock off her to show her to a friend.  Words cannot describe the shock I felt when I saw her coiled around a clutch of eggs.  

I scrambled and did some fast research.  I learned about parthenogenesis and ordered an incubator.  I decided to incubate them myself because I really wanted Epty to eat again.  Now let me just say at this point that I really had no idea what I was doing.  I started with a clutch of 6 eggs, but 2 dried up and rotted.  I kept the temp at about 89-90, but I had a problem with the humidity for a weekend while I was out of town.

On 08/19/10, the first one started to come out.  Number 3 came out last night, but #4 appears to have died in the egg.  It was fully formed, but for some reason it died.  #1 and #3 appear to be perfectly normal.  In fact, #3 snapped at me twice tonight.  

The one that I dont understand is #2 because she appears to have been born with a birth defect of the eyes.  The eye covers are HUGE and my kids have affectionatly named her Bugsy.

What exactly is wrong with her eyes and can she survive?  Should I take her to a vet?  Also, what are the odds of Epty doing this again next year?  :Confused:  Thanks in advance. 

Here are some pics of my journey.

EPTIUS


THE INCUBATOR


THE EGGS


THE BABIES


#1


#2


#3

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_Quiet Tempest_ (08-24-2010),_shorty54_ (04-06-2011)

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## ahunt037

wow idk wat to do about that but i just had to say thats an amazing story and that Bugsy doesnt look good but idk im not very educated on this stuff yet

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## Kyle1989

Can you take a better pic of those eye's I've never seen that before.

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## llovelace

The one with the eye problem is most likely blind. And you say she has never been with a male?

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## reggi-BP

:Surprised:  :Confused:  :Confused:  i really dont know wat happened here with her having eggs

btw #3 looks amazing ill buy him lol

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## kb1290

So wait you have had the same BP for 25 years and you've NEVER once had another BP in contact with her, and some how had viable eggs!?!  :Confused:  Does #3 have kinks in its neck or is it just the picture? I personally would put #2 down, unless your sure it is in no pain and can live a quailty life.

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## xxxLIGERxxx

whatever happened its a blessing and congrats!

with bugsy, better have a vet see it.

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## tylersweeney22

what part of sw ohio you live in i am from cincinnati.if you need one of them off you hands let me know. id proply put blindy down jmo

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## seeya205

Congrats on the babies!  Interesting story!

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## Quiet Tempest

I've heard about someone locally who experienced parthenogenesis in his snake a couple years ago, but I was skeptical. I know it can happen but it's just so unreal. Very cool story. Good luck with your babies.

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## JLC

I guess she REALLY wanted to have some babies!  :Razz:   And they're gorgeous.  I especially like the pattern on #3.  Very pretty!  

As for the eyes on #2...I've never seen anything like that.  I'd probably cull the animal, but if I was unsure, I would definitely take it to a vet who has good knowledge and experience with snakes.  If your kids have already named it, y'all may be too attached to cull it yourself and a vet's diagnosis could either set your minds at ease that the snake could live a normal life, or he could help euthanize the animal for you.  Good luck with it!! 

*Just a quick note for everyone....offers to buy or adopt the animals should be made IN PRIVATE.  Thanks.*  :Smile:

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## santino34

Thats correct.  In all these years Eptius has NEVER been in contact with another snake.  This came as a complete suprise.  I am not a breeder and have never even tried to breed her.  Hell, I didnt even know another snake owner until 2 days ago when a lady in my office told me that she and her husband have had a BP for 10 years.

From what I have read, the babies are genetic clones of Epty since she used her own DNA to fertilize her own eggs.  However, they do not have the same pattern.  Bugsy is also the biggest of the 3.  Bugsy is pretty active and I really cant tell if she is in pain or not.  I do plan to have a vet see her soon.

Some one asked about kinks in #3's neck.  I dont know what kinks are, but she looks pretty normal to me.  She was the last one to hatch and I thought she was pretty mellow, until she tried to bite me last night.  My kids have now named her Cleo.  

I am going to offer Cleo a dead pinky tonight to see if she eats it.  I've tried to to feed #1 twice, but she hasnt eaten yet.

Should I offer them live baby mice or stick with pre killed frozen pinkies?  Thanks.

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## rabernet

It's rare for a hatchling to take f/t as their first meal. It'd offer live.

BTW, My condolences in the loss of your mother.

Sent from my HTC Incredible using Tapatalk.

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## Ntume

Very weird eyedefect there, have never seen anything like that, at all.

Now on with the pathogenesis, you'd expect the babies to look like mom.
All babies should be females. But the pattern is very different, and it should be like moms..

questions questions. :p

Good luck raising the babies, but I'd put bugsy down as well. 

Greets,

Yaron

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## DemmBalls

Excellent story!  I'm terribly sorry to hear about your mother.  Maybe this was natures way of trying to cheer you up a little?

Did the babies shed yet?  I would wait until after they shed to offer food.

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## Courtney281

I'd keep the blind one for myself, as long as he wasnt in any pain. Then again, Im a sucker for strange animals. I have a 2 and 3/4 legged cat hahaha Pretty babies though, congrats  :Smile:

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## santino34

I dont know what to say about the pattern differences.  #1, who my kids have named Rocco, seems to have the same pattern as Eptius.  But Bugsy and Cleo are both way off.  Here is a better pic of Bugsy:

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## lusciousdragon

I wouldn't put Bugsy down unless she is in pain. There are lots of blind animals that leave nice lives.

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_cecilbturtle_ (05-02-2011),Hilltop (09-04-2010),_MoshBalls_ (04-05-2011)

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## The Hedgehog

> I wouldn't put Bugsy down unless she is in pain. There are lots of blind animals that leave nice lives.


THIS.  If she ends up eating and being able to live without much assistance, why not keep such an awesome animal, and a blessing at that.  This is something that has apparently given your kids joy and happiness out of something sad.   :Good Job: 

They all look good in their own way, and #3 is really hot for a normal.  I'd keep all of them honestly.  LOL

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## santino34

I currently have no plans to put Bugsy down.  I am taking her to a vet this afternoon.  If she can live without pain and can feed on her own, I dont see the point in putting her down.  I still have to discuss if were are going to keep her with my daughters.

Thanks to those who sent their condolences.

I also suspected that Eptius may have done this to help take my mind off things.  That snake has been with me through thick and thin and out lived 3 dogs. :Smile:

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## anatess

> I dont know what to say about the pattern differences.  #1, who my kids have named Rocco, seems to have the same pattern as Eptius.  But Bugsy and Cleo are both way off.  Here is a better pic of Bugsy:


Is it just me or do those eyes look like they may just have big scales over them.  I'm thinking it just might shed out and have a normal eyeball underneath.

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## AkHerps

That's awesome.  The reason that some didn't make it, and some have genetic deformities is probably because of how it happened.  Since it is only asexual reproduction from the female, there is not a lot of genetic diversity, which allows fohttp://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?127721-Unexpected-Eggs/page3r more mutations.

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## mpkeelee

WOW, that is crazy. sorry about ur mom. congrats on the eggs tho, guess ur snake really wanted u to be happy again. good luck with bugsy and keep us updated, this is a really interesting thread. i think u may also have the oldest Ball on here    :Good Job:

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## dr del

Hi,

I know I have seen this before. I just can't find the thread about it.  :Mad: 

The word glaucoma is bubbling in my noggin but also something about blocked tear ducts.  :Confused: 

I don't think it needs to be euthanised though - I think a vet should be able to identify it and drain if needed and check to see if it is an infection or a structural defect.


dr del

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## mpkeelee

you may want to contact someone cuz ive been looking and there really isnt much on this happening in pythons.

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## dr del

Oh good grief,




> Hi,
> 
> I know I have seen this before. I just can't find the thread about it. 
> 
> The word glaucoma is bubbling in my noggin but also something about blocked tear ducts. 
> 
> I don't think it needs to be euthanised though - I think a vet should be able to identify it and drain if needed and check to see if it is an infection or a structural defect.
> 
> 
> dr del


Turns out the reason I remember that thread was because *I* started it.  :Embarassed: 

It was a response about seeing a similar picture in a Ralph Davis hatching record.

Clutch 16 on this page as the link in the thread is now obsolete.

So while I don't have any answers I can recommend you contact Ralph and ask him if he knows what caused it and how to fix it if possible.


dr del

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## Oxylepy

It isnt necessary for the offspring to be genetic clones of the mother, in genetics there is something called crossing over where genes move between the two separated chromosomes. This happens after the first split. Also certain variables are going to be random and not genetically controlled to the extent others are. Still pretty amazing considering BPs arent known for parthenogenisis.

The snake is fairly old at this point and as such her eggs are likely suffering in the same way that they do in other animals, increasing the likelihood of deformities in offspring as well as remarkable processes like parthenogenisis. Unless, of course, she was bred prior to you getting her, in which case it's possible she's been storing semen or fertilized eggs. In any case this is still pretty fantastic.




> Is it just me or do those eyes look like they may just have big scales over them.  I'm thinking it just might shed out and have a normal eyeball underneath.


All snake eyes are covered in a scale, however this snake's scales seem to have grown to massive proportions. The scale itself is likely not going to shed off, however it's possible she may grow into them. 

A blind BP isnt that bad considering that they have 2 other senses to hunt with (heat pits and the jacobson's organ).

Also the TC may want to get the snakes sexed. If any are male then there is a chance she had been carrying sperm/fertilized eggs. However if they got the snake when it was still a baby that's kinda thrown out the window.

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LizardPants (04-07-2011)

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## bobmurffy

gratz on the babies  :Smile:  they are all very nice looking!! maybe these babies are the saviors of the ball python world  :Wink:

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## santino34

Good news.  I just got back from the vet.  I had all 3 of the kids checked out.  The vet believes that Bugsy has a fluid build up under her eye covers.  So her eye covers are stretched out.  The right eye was normal when she was born, but now it is almost as big as the left. 

The vet believes that it is caused by clogged ducts or perhaps ducts that never formed.  We are going to find out for sure tomorrow because thats when we are taking Bugsy back for surgery.  The fluid will be drained and the vet will check the ducts.

Rocco and Cleo each weight .06 and Bugsy weighs .08.  Cleo was also found to have a kink in her neck.  Rocco is in perfect shape, but Cleo was everyone's favorite at the vet because of her color and pattern.

As for Eptius, she was full grown 25 years ago when I bought her from a guy in school who needed the money to pay his electric bill.  I think I paid $40 for her.  I have no idea how old she really is.

I told Eptius' story to the vet and she thought that perhaps she was storing sperm, but not for 25 years. :Smile:

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## PghBall

Cool story.  Glad to hear the little one's are doing ok.  My condolences to your family regarding the loss of your mother.

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## AkHerps

So, can you take the blood of a snake and see if it has something from another snake, or if it is all just from the mom??

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## mpkeelee

well thats good news, the kinked neck shouldnt be a problem. a lot of snakes get kinks and grow up to be just fine. i hope bugsy gets to see his new family once the vet drains his eyes. good luck tomoro, let us know how it goes

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## santino34

I contacted Mr. Davis as dr del suggested.  He said that his little guy died after a few days even after he drained the fluid, but that he also had other problems. 

Also, mpkeelee suggested that I contact someone about the babies and how they came to be.  However, I'm not exactly sure who to contact.  I know that there is Herp Society in Cinci, so I guess I can start with them.

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## Quiet Tempest

I hope your little ones do well and grow up to be happy, healthy adults.   :Smile:

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## mpkeelee

> Also, mpkeelee suggested that I contact someone about the babies and how they came to be.  However, I'm not exactly sure who to contact.  I know that there is Herp Society in Cinci, so I guess I can start with them.


ill do some lookin around and maybe i can find something in ur area. but maybe some vets know of some herpotologists

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## reggi-BP

good luck on the surgery keep us posted

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## santino34

FYI, Bugsy came out of surgery yesterday and she is doing fine.  The left eye cover sprung a leak on it's own and drained itself.  The vet only had to drain the right one.  She gave us a prescription for an ointment, but none of my local pharmacies had it so it had to be ordered.  It should arrive tomorrow.  The vet said that she should be OK and that she should not have anymore fluid build up.  Here are some pics.





I also contacted the Boonshoft Museum of Discovery in Dayton, OH about the entire virgin birth deal.  I reported the incident to their Live Animal Collection Dept.  Their animal curator is supposed to call me tomorrow.   :Smile: 

BTW, how long will it take these guys to have their first shed?

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bigSAK (04-18-2016)

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## Kyle1989

So glad it went well dont forget to let us no what the animal curator has to say. :Dancin' Banana:  :Dancin' Banana:  :Dancin' Banana:

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## xxxLIGERxxx

glad everything went well with bugsy. thats a fighter and a keeper!

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## llovelace

Glad to hear things are going good  :Smile:

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## Lesserbee

Have you got them sexed yet? If it was a partho I bet they are all females. You should contact Dr. Warren Booth and send him sheds from these animals along with your story. He would be really interested in this I'm sure. Contact Andrew Wyatt at USARK for his info. :Smile:

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## Matt K

> Have you got them sexed yet? If it was a partho I bet they are all females. You should contact Dr. Warren Booth and send him sheds from these animals along with your story. He would be really interested in this I'm sure. Contact Andrew Wyatt at USARK for his info.


I _think_ they'd all be male actually. They receive the genes from the mother, but only the ones required to make male offspring. Anywho, this stuff is truly amazing. Congratulations on your little miracles.

Cheers,
-Matt

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## shelliebear

Congrats--glad little Bugsy is ok.  :Smile: 
she/he looks a lot better.

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## Vypyrz

:Surprised:  Wow, that's amazing. If she was already an adult when you got her, that would put her somewhere around 27+ years old...

 :Welcome:  to BP.net. Please keep us updated on this...

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## che

By far one of the most interesting posts on here! Please keep us informed on all progress.. It can only be described as a miracle and a blessing! They are truly beautiful!

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## Quiet Tempest

> I _think_ they'd all be male actually. They receive the genes from the mother, but only the ones required to make male offspring. Anywho, this stuff is truly amazing. Congratulations on your little miracles.
> 
> Cheers,
> -Matt


I know it's a wiki page, but it looks like they'd all be female.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

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## ballpythonluvr

What an amazing story!  I'm so happy that the little one is going to be ok with it's eyes!  Those are some very cute babies!  Congrats!

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## mpkeelee

im glad bugsy is gonna be ok. after a shed she should be perfectly fine. im glad to hear someone took interest in your situation, i wanna know what they have to say.

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## Matt K

> I know it's a wiki page, but it looks like they'd all be female.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis


I just read that page, interesting stuff. Do Ball Pythons follow XY or ZW sex determination? I'm not sure. But it still seems to me like they might be male. It would make sense for them to be male, as this kind of thing, adaptively speaking, happens as a result of a female not being in the presence of a male. Because no males are around for sexual reproduction, parthenogenesis becomes a necessity if reproduction is to happen at all. BUT, the logical result of creating offspring would be to create male offspring to compensate for the lack of available males, thus making sexual reproduction a viable option again. That's just my 2 cents, and I'm by no means 100% confident in my hypothesis, but I am reasonably confident, haha. Either way though, it really is amazing.

Cheers,
-Matt

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LizardPants (04-07-2011)

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## ice#1

get in touch with http://www.herpetologistsleague.org/en/pubs.php

if that link isn't right i posted it here in the top sections of forum pages for somebody wanting to talk to a herpetologist they are a world wide group so they could answer any questions on asexual reproduction in snakes allot better then any of us could

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## Ash

I have actually seen that big-eyed condition before. There was an 09 pied male for sale on kingsnake and they were letting it go for about $500 less than pieds were worth at the time. They were suggesting that despite his deformity, he still possessed the pied gene and was worth breeding. I wasn't so sure about that...

Anyway, I am very interested to know whether the babies are all male or all female. I at first assumed they must be all female because I didn't know about the ZW chromosome system, but now I'm not sure. If we knew what gender they were, it might shed some light on what chromosome system ball pythons go by. Interesting stuff!

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## reggi-BP

so how r they doing did u talk to someone about her having eggs let us know  :Please:  :Confused:  :Smile:

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## mpkeelee

anything new going on with the wee ones??

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## santino34

The kids are all doing fine.  Thanks for asking.  The vet asked us to bring Bugsy in yesterday for a check up and she gave her the thumbs up.  Rocco and Cleo both shed yesterday.  Bugsy shed tonight and her eye is much better.  The big crusty eye cap came off and revealed a much better looking eye.

I never heard from anyone at the museum, so I e-mailed their biology dept and attached a link to this thread.  Maybe I'll hear from them or maybe not.  Who knows, maybe they dont believe me.  I guess if I dont hear from them by the end of next week I'll contact the herp society in Cinci.  Thanks again guys.

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dr del (09-03-2010),_Quiet Tempest_ (09-04-2010)

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## mpkeelee

im glad everyone is going ok, do u have any pics u can put up of them? i would love to see them freshly shed

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## mainbutter

> All babies should be females.


Are you sure?

I know NOTHING about sex determination in snakes, or if its common across all snake species.

The komodo dragon (also able to reproduce via parthenogenesis) uses the ZW system, reversed from the XY system, where the female is ZW and the male is ZZ.  This lets komodo females reproducing via parthenogenesis have both male and female offspring.

Does anyone know about snakes?

edit: my girlfriend (who usually knows these things) says that all snakes use the ZW system, so the snakes could be either male or female.

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## Lesserbee

> Are you sure?
> 
> I know NOTHING about sex determination in snakes, or if its common across all snake species.
> 
> The komodo dragon (also able to reproduce via parthenogenesis) uses the ZW system, reversed from the XY system, where the female is ZW and the male is ZZ.  This lets komodo females reproducing via parthenogenesis have both male and female offspring.
> 
> Does anyone know about snakes?
> 
> edit: my girlfriend (who usually knows these things) says that all snakes use the ZW system, so the snakes could be either male or female.


PM sent!

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## anatess

> PM sent!


But we wanna know too!

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## sarahlovesmiike

I would think that any temperature spikes or drops could account for the different patterns. I'd like to see a new picture of Bugsy. This is so interesting!

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## santino34

Unfortunately I'm out of town this weekend and wont be able to take and post new pics until Monday.  I cant wait to see Bugsy myself because I'm just going by what my daughter told me on the phone.  I also need to try and feed them when I get home.  Should I try live mice or frozen pinkies?

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## zues

Normally you'll have better luck with live hopper mice. Keep us posted. I find myself logging in everyday just to check this thread.

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## santino34

Hi guys.  I tried to feed the babies live hopper mice today, but none of them wanted to eat.  Its been 2 weeks since they hatched, so when do they get hungry?  Are they born digesting their eggs yolk?  I ask because Cleo pooped in my daughter's hand today (too funny).  Anyway, I took some new pics of the kids. 

BUGSY


CLEO


ROCCO

 :Very Happy:

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## dr del

Hi,

Any updates on how bugsy did - has he shed and did it help any?  :Please: 


dr del

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## ahunt037

Wow Cleo has an amazing pattern on her i wish my Cleo looked like that lol and i hope bugsy is doing good

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## santino34

The kids are all doing OK.  None have eaten on their own yet.  I have assist fed each one frozen pinkies twice.  The only really stubborn one was Rocco.  He really didnt want to eat and kept trying to spit it out.  Cleo and Bugsy gobbled down the pinkies as soon as I got them in thier mouths.  I went to the pinkies after they refused live hopper mice.  

Bugsy is still having eye problems, but not as bad as they were.  I'm hoping she does better as she gets older and sheds a few more times.  However, I think she has a mouth/jaw problem as well.  It just doesnt look right when she opens it.  It looks like one side doesnt close evenly with the other.  With that said, she is still as active as the other 2 and flicks her short little tongue out while exploring.

Cleo and Rocco are also both very active and love to climb, but Cleo still has that kink in her neck.  The vet said she should grow out of it.  

Eptius (mom) has also been very active since the babies hatched.  She unlike the babies is eating great.  She has eaten every rat I've put in front of her.  Every time I walk by her tank she sticks her head out of her hide rock as if to see what I have for her.  

Hopefully, I'll be able to get the kids eating on their own soon.   :Smile:

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## Rije682

I'm glad things are working out for you.  Good luck with the youngsters, I know first hand how anxious you can get hoping they'll eat on their own.  At least they're all doing well.

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## Tim Lloyd

sorry to hear about your mother, but the snake story is just awesome. i personally tink bugsy looks the best, are they eating yet?

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## santino34

Good new.  I gave Cleo AKA Kinky a hopper mouse tonight and left them alone for a little while.  While I was out of the room, she killed it and started eating it.  She eventually ate the whole thing.  I'll try Rocco and Bugsy tomorrow.
 :Dancin' Banana:

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## dr del

Congrats,  :Smile: 

And best of luck with the others. **crosses fingers**  :Good Job: 


dr del

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## sarahlovesmiike

Could you post an updated close up of Bugsy's eyes?

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## santino34

OK guys, I'm 2 for 2 now.  Rocco ate his first hopper mouse on his own tonight.  I left the mouse with him while we had dinner.  I came back to find him swallowing the mouse.  I was really surprised because he initially didnt show any interest.  Its Bugsy's turn tomorrow night and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  I'll take some new pics of her tomorrow before I try to feed her.

Now that 2 out of 3 have eaten on their own, It has really started to sink in that all 3 are probably going to make it.  This is my first experiece with hatchlings and I have just been learning as I go.  Add to that the fact that they should not have been born in the first place and its really kind of mind blowing.

Once they are all eating, I'll have to decide which one I'm going to keep and which 2 I'm going to have to find homes for.   :Snake:  :Snake:  :Snake:

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## Matt K

So there was more than one sex in the clutch? Very interesting.

Cheers,
-Matt

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## anatess

> So there was more than one sex in the clutch? Very interesting.
> 
> Cheers,
> -Matt


I know, right?

I'm starting to think momma snake was fooling around with the neighbors at night while you guys were asleep.   :Very Happy: 

If she got 20 years of holdover sperm... I wanna know who's the daddy!  Lol.

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## ahunt037

> Once they are all eating, I'll have to decide which one I'm going to keep and which 2 I'm going to have to find homes for.



oooo does this mean Cleo could be up for grabs? she is a beauty i would be first in  line for her! she would make an amazing pet no way would i breed her because of the kink but i love her pattern

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## santino34

I REALLY dont know about their sex.  I'm just going by the names my kids chose.  Their actual sex is still a mystery to me.  :Confused:

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## Matt K

Ohhhh, very cool! You should have them sexed if at all possible--my bet is on them being all males. It would definitely be an interesting little piece of information to have, and would teach us more about parthenogenesis in Ball Pythons. Anywho, I'm still stoked for you! I'd love to have on of those little guys in my collection!

Cheers,
-Matt

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## Kingofspades

I had a baby pastel hatch out with a bubble like that over it's eye.
I tossed it into a trade for free to a guy and he told me it died.

I'd put him down to be honest.

But awesome on the parthenogenesis.

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## anatess

> I had a baby pastel hatch out with a bubble like that over it's eye.
> I tossed it into a trade for free to a guy and he told me it died.
> 
> I'd put him down to be honest.
> 
> But awesome on the parthenogenesis.


You will put him down because he has a chance of dying??? :Mad:

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## santino34

Bugsy is still having some eye problems that switch off between eyes.  The left one will swell then drain and then later the right.  I offered her a live hopper mouse 2 nights in a row and she didnt eat it.  I'll try again tonight.

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## sarahlovesmiike

Offering food too often will put them off feed, so you probably should give him a few days before offering again.

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## pixie6710

thats amazing but how the heck can she have babies without a daddy????? im confused as hell unless she was with a male while u were gone....idk anyway good luck :Good Job:

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## Carlene16

Any updates or new pictures? I'd love to see em!  :Smile:

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## Kateesaurus

Me too!

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## santino34

Here is the latest.  I had to put Bugsy down because she continued to have problems with her eyes and she would not eat on her own.  Rocco is eating great and getting huge.  Cleo is smaller than Rocco and will only eat every 2 weeks.  If I try to feed her once a week, she kills the mouse and leaves it. 

I will try to take some new pics by the end of the week and post them here.

Thanks for the continued interest guys.

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## jsmorphs2

Sorry to hear you had to put Bugsy down  :Sad: . We have a hatchling with the same condition and while his eyes drained completely they filled back up with fluids recently and even with assist feedings he's still not growing or thriving. 

I'm glad to hear the others are doing well though  :Smile: .


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

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## santino34

That is exactly what I experienced with Bugsy  :Sad:

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## MoshBalls

Wow what an amazing story!  This is one of the few thread this long that I read from beginning to end!  I have to admit I had to take a break to look up Parthenogenesis, and I found the following post.   http://forum.kingsnake.com/ball/messages/74370.html 

If anyone is interested.  I am curious as to where you are at in SW Ohio.  I live in Erlanger KY myself.  Did anyone that studies pathenogenesis ever contact you?

I am sorry to hear about your mother, and Bugsy.    :Sad:

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## Mike Cavanaugh

I am sorry but to me something just stinks about this whole story.  Has there ever been any scientific proof of a female ball python laying eggs without mating?  

Sounds like a crock to me...

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## MoshBalls

> I am sorry but to me something just stinks about this whole story.  Has there ever been any scientific proof of a female ball python laying eggs without mating?  
> 
> Sounds like a crock to me...


We need an unlike button.

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## Kateesaurus

> I am sorry but to me something just stinks about this whole story.  Has there ever been any scientific proof of a female ball python laying eggs without mating?  
> 
> Sounds like a crock to me...


Yes it's called parthenogenesis and it does happen very rarely in ball pythons. Way to be a wet blanket.

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## santino34

Thanks guys.  I am near Dayton, Ohio.  I reported it to the local Boomshoft Museum of Discovery, but they never came out to see the snakes or anything.  They acknowledged the parthenogenesis, but nothing more.

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## WingedWolfPsion

My bet is on them being females.  I have mourning geckos--all female.  In the majority of cases of parthenogenesis, the mother essentially clones herself.  They don't all have the same pattern because pattern is only partially genetic--it's also developmental.  That's why identical twin snakes also do not have identical patterns.  Genetically identical does not mean physically identical.

Komodo dragons are a highly unusual case--females that reproduce via parthenogenesis will have all male offspring (not a mix of genders).  As far as I know, they're the only species that does this.  (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

It will be extremely interesting to hear if this female repeats the trick in the future!  You may have better luck with clutches down the road, if you find them more quickly and get them into a stable incubator.  Deformities such as you see there can be caused by improper incubation temperatures at crucial points in development, not just by genetics.  (Actually, they're associated with incubation problems more often than with genetic problems).

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## shorty54

Interesting story! Thx 4 sharin! I agree #3 is BEAUTIFUL!

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## RandyRemington

I remember a case of Burmese python parthenogenesis in a European zoo where the embryos (some whacked zoo policy prevented allowing them to hatch) where all female clones of mom.  The article commented on that being unusual as at the time parthenogenesis had been seen in some viper where apparently a random half of the moms genetic material was doubled and only the ZZ sons where viable (interesting about the WW female boas surviving in the wiki link).  So apparently two types of parthenogenesis are known in snakes.  

Congrats on hatching these as I've seen several reports like this through the years where i suspected the clutch was lost due to inexperience with incubation.  Would be great if could eventually find a grad student to do some testing of mom and babies for a paper to see if these are the clone type or the fully homozygous type.  You could also perhaps find a local breeder here to sex them for you and if any males might explain the problems as fully homozygous animals might expose a few bad genes from mom.

I suspect parthenogenesis might happen fairly often in ball pythons, perhaps even when males are present, but most are quick to dismiss the possibility.  Could explain the occasional unexpected phenotype result in morph breedings.

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## CookieCutter

WOW!  I read this thread front to back in one sitting haha!
That's really weird!  Whether it be parthenogenesis or stored sperm, it's awesome!

I can't imagine the shock you had when you found EGGS! O_O

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## jfmoore

Hi all,

New member here and first post. I first bred ball pythons in 1983 and still have a male I got in a pet store in 1979.

I came to this thread through a search for parthenogenesis in ball pythons. This is a very interesting story, indeed; not just because of the genetics, but due to the human interest angle, as well: long-time pet purchased to help pay off someone's utility bill, etc.

Here's a link to the case of the zoo animal that Randy Remington referred to above: It's in the journal, _Heredity,_ "Molecular genetic evidence for parthenogenesis in the Burmese python, Python molurus bivittatus" http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v9.../6800210a.html

The problem with our anecdotal information is that we can never be sure (or at least, never really convince everyone) that these are truly cases of parthenogenesis without some sort of specialized DNA testing of the offspring. It would be nice if the original poster could find some academic specialist willing to do this.

Anyway, the same sort of thing happened to me just ten days ago. A virgin female ball python I produced myself seven years ago deposited a small clutch of eggs. If anything comes of it, I'll post more.

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## ClarkT

That's cool to know of another occurrence. Definitely keep us posted.

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## cecilbturtle

is this just a random thing or are there environmental factors that can contribute to this happening?

a while back i got a female bp. the first thing i noticed was my male going insane in his enclosure. well insane for him. he is about 800 grams and an 06. he started producing sperm but calmed down and continued to eat so i left them in the same room. i recently noticed my female acting strange. she has been coiling her her water bowl and i find her in her hide upside down. 

i gave this behavior little notice because she has had absolutely ZERO contact with my male. now i might just set up an incubator. 

this was by far the most interesting thread i have read so far. i have a degree in biology and chemistry. i have read about this but really do not know anything about it. very fascinating!

are there any updates? I'm curious where the surviving babies ended up. do you still have them?

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## chapskis1

> Hi all,
> 
> New member here and first post. I first bred ball pythons in 1983 and still have a male I got in a pet store in 1979.


Ummm...how about some pictures please of your 32 year old python.  He is probably older than half of the members on here!!

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lasweetswan (05-18-2011)

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## Carlene16

I would love to see some updated pictures of these guys. This was a very interesting thread when I first read it  :Smile:

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## santino34

I know this is an old thread, but my old a$$ Ball Eptius did it again!  I have 4 new eggs and 3 or so slugs.  I'll post pics of mom, the baby I kept from last time and of the new batch sometime this weekend.  My wife and kids are all in disbelief that this happened again.

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## bunnykit

> I know this is an old thread, but my old a$$ Ball Eptius did it again!  I have 4 new eggs and 3 or so slugs.  I'll post pics of mom, the baby I kept from last time and of the new batch sometime this weekend.  My wife and kids are all in disbelief that this happened again.


Haha, for real?  :Very Happy:  Did you ever get the genetics of the last clutch checked out? Were they mommy clones? If you didn't get it the last time, make sure you get it this time! What baby did you keep? Cleo? If I didn't live in sweden I'd buy cleo without one second of hesitation. I hope you get some more cleos this time too!  :Very Happy:

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## bigt0006

Thats so cool

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

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## kitkatbird

I've just got my first ball python a month ago and joined and read this thread. How exciting that I get to the last page and find that its is happening again! I have a degree in conservation and wildlife management an I am super fascinated with evolution and this story has me thinking about why this would happen to a snake so old. I have a theory. There is a common occurrence with a lot of trees in which they will normally produce nuts or seeds once every several years, but when under stress, facing disease or impending death they will drop nuts every year until they die to give them the best chance of passing on their genetics. I wonder if after living so long and possibly never encountering a male Epitus's body decided the only way to pass on her genes would be to clone herself. Just a theory but it is absolutely fascinating. 
Keep updating please.

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RellesReptiles (06-24-2014)

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## Warren_Booth

Nice story. Its a pity I did not hear of this when it happened. We genetically confirmed parthenogenesis in ball pythons and reticulated pythons (and raised questions regarding the case in Burmese pythons) in a paper published in 2014. We currently have data from 7 or 8 clutches of ball pythons, a clutch of bloods, a clutch of Children's, and several clutches of retics, when it comes to pythons.

Booth, W., Schuett, GW., Ridgway, A., Buxton, DW., Castoe, TA., Bastone, G., Bennett, C. & McMahan, Wm. 2014. New Insights on facultative parthenogenesis in pythons. Biological Journal of the Linnean Society. 112, 461-468.

Click on the hyperlinked title for the paper.

Do you have any update on this second clutch or the offspring from the first. 

Warren

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_Coluber42_ (04-18-2016)

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## PhoenixGate

> Nice story. Its a pity I did not hear of this when it happened. We genetically confirmed parthenogenesis in ball pythons and reticulated pythons (and raised questions regarding the case in Burmese pythons) in a paper published in 2014. We currently have data from 7 or 8 clutches of ball pythons, a clutch of bloods, a clutch of Children's, and several clutches of retics, when it comes to pythons.
> 
> Booth, W., Schuett, GW., Ridgway, A., Buxton, DW., Castoe, TA., Bastone, G., Bennett, C. & McMahan, Wm. 2014. New Insights on facultative parthenogenesis in pythons. Biological Journal of the Linnean Society. 112, 461-468.
> 
> Click on the hyperlinked title for the paper.
> 
> Do you have any update on this second clutch or the offspring from the first. 
> 
> Warren


I second this.  I'm definitely interested in seeing what happened with the second clutch.

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## stickyalvinroll

So what happened in the first clutch and the one from 2014? The op didn't give a update?

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## Warren_Booth

Looking at the activity of the original poster, I think we are unlikely to hear about an update any time soon.

I will have soon cool news about ball python parthenogenesis soon. Just waiting for the last results to come off the sequencer.

Warren

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dr del (04-18-2016)

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## PitOnTheProwl

Yep... OP hasnt been here since 06.13.2014

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