# Colubrids > Pituophis >  Big bull snakes

## goopyguy

Does anyone have a 6 ft plus bull snake pic they wanna share? I hear a lot about bull snakes getting rather large but online pics and videos are few and far between. I haven't seen too many impressive bull pics. I have a male about 4 ft and female who might be approaching 5 1/2. Alot of the bull snake pics of 6 footers I have seen are pretty thin. Anyone have any pics of big and bulky bulls? Or any impressive and bulky pituophis? I have heard of girthy 7 footers but I have yet to see a picture. I think my female might eventually get over 6' but she isn't too girthy.

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## Lucas339



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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),_cecilbturtle_ (01-22-2014),_Daybreaker_ (08-02-2013)

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## goopyguy

> Does anyone have a 6 ft plus bull snake pic they wanna share? I hear a lot about bull snakes getting rather large but online pics and videos are few and far between. I haven't seen too many impressive bull pics. I have a male about 4 ft and female who might be approaching 5 1/2. Alot of the bull snake pics of 6 footers I have seen are pretty thin. Anyone have any pics of big and bulky bulls? Or any impressive and bulky pituophis? I have heard of girthy 7 footers but I have yet to see a picture. I think my female might eventually get over 6' but she isn't too girthy.


Thank you. Thats pretty good sized. Havent seen to many of those.

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## goopyguy

I don't know how tall you are. I would assume he/she is 7ft ish.

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## Lucas339

She is just over 7 feet.

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## jclaiborne

That thing is huge...I'm a little confused...when I was at the reptile show I saw a bull snake for the first time and asked the breeder about it since I had never seen/heard of them and he said it is what they call gopher snakes on the east coast?!  That doesn't look like any gopher snake that I have seen.

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## goopyguy

I am not a huge expert on this. I am pretty sure that Bull snakes are classified as a type of gopher snake now. But there are a lot of differences in color patterns and so on. Of all the snakes that I know of Bull/Pine/Gopher snakes seem to have a lot more localities attached to a name. Like "Christmas Mountain Bullsnake" or "San Diego Gopher snake". And the different localities have different patterns and colors. I think some may get larger or smaller etc. Someone else on these forums could probably answer it better than I can.

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## Lucas339

Technically there are only 3 different species of Pituophis and they don't line up with bull, pine or gopher.

Who ever told you that west coast east coast thing was wrong.  They are different sub-species not localities.  They are genetically and morphological distinct.  The east coast is mostly pines not gophers.  The west coast is mostly gophers and the middle of the country is a mix with bulls being there.  This is very arbitrary and I am not saying that gophers only occur on the west coast and pines in the east.  Bulls go all the way up the center of the country to Canada. 

Gophers are different than bulls big time!  

They all have a lot of localities but make sure you buy from a reputable breeder for those.

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_jclaiborne_ (07-30-2013)

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## jclaiborne

> Technically there are only 3 different species of Pituophis and they don't line up with bull, pine or gopher.
> 
> Who ever told you that west coast east coast thing was wrong. They are different sub-species not localities. They are genetically and morphological distinct. The east coast is mostly pines not gophers. The west coast is mostly gophers and the middle of the country is a mix with bulls being there. This is very arbitrary and I am not saying that gophers only occur on the west coast and pines in the east. Bulls go all the way up the center of the country to Canada. 
> 
> Gophers are different than bulls big time! 
> 
> They all have a lot of localities but make sure you buy from a reputable breeder for those.


The west/east coast answer seemed a little off to me, but made the mistake of assuming the breeder knew what he was talking about since he was selling them...kinda sad now that I think about it.

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## goopyguy

> Technically there are only 3 different species of Pituophis and they don't line up with bull, pine or gopher.
> 
> Who ever told you that west coast east coast thing was wrong.  They are different sub-species not localities.  They are genetically and morphological distinct.  The east coast is mostly pines not gophers.  The west coast is mostly gophers and the middle of the country is a mix with bulls being there.  This is very arbitrary and I am not saying that gophers only occur on the west coast and pines in the east.  Bulls go all the way up the center of the country to Canada. 
> 
> Gophers are different than bulls big time!  
> 
> They all have a lot of localities but make sure you buy from a reputable breeder for those.


I am pretty sure bull snakes and gophers are very similar. They are actually classified closer together than to pine snakes. Bull snake= Pituophis catenifer sayi. gopher snake = Pituophis catenifer. pine snake =Pituophis melanoleucus. So technically a Bull Snake is a subspecies of gopher snake.

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## Lucas339

That is exactly what I said.  Re-read what you just quoted 

"Technically there are only 3 different species of Pituophis and they don't line up with bull, pine or gopher.

Who ever told you that west coast east coast thing was wrong. *They are different sub-species not localities.* "

Take a look at this for the 3 different species aspect.  You might not be able to read the entire article but at least you can read the abstract

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...5579039990698X

Having bred both, bulls and gophers they are not that similar.  Their head scales are different, sizes are different and their color genes are different.  For example, bulls have the axanthic trait while gophers have anery.  Great basins have the motley trait which isn't found in bulls.


Also, P. catenifer is just a generic name used for the group of bulls and gophers.  There is no animal that is "Pituophis catenifer" because that is a multi-species complex.  There are only sub-species under this species designation.  There are multiple sub-species of gopher snake, not just one.  Look here for that:

http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleRp...h_value=209400

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## goopyguy

> That is exactly what I said.  Re-read what you just quoted 
> 
> "Technically there are only 3 different species of Pituophis and they don't line up with bull, pine or gopher.
> 
> Who ever told you that west coast east coast thing was wrong. *They are different sub-species not localities.* "
> 
> Take a look at this for the 3 different species aspect.  You might not be able to read the entire article but at least you can read the abstract
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...5579039990698X
> ...


I am sorry. I only responded because you said that bull snakes and gophers are completely different. What I thought you meant is that they are like a different species are something.

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## goopyguy

However bull snakes are scientifically classified as a sub- species of gopher snake. I never said that there was only one subspecies of gopher. Bull snakes are one of many .

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## goopyguy

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/bull-snake-facts.html.

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## goopyguy

I just originally thought that you said gopher snakes and bull snakes are as far apart as garter snakes and canned yams. What you really meant is that they are closely related but there are some physical differences as far as colors and maybe size.

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## Lucas339

Look at the last link i posted.  That is a scientific link, not just someone's random dot com website.  The "gopher snake" is a multi-species complex.  Calling a snake Pituophis catenifer is meaningless because there are 6 different subspecies under that name.  There is no animal called Pituophis catenifer anymore. You are getting hung up on common names which don't mean anything.  Saying you have a gopher snake is like saying you have a python.  It really doesn't mean anything unless you specify what type.  I have been a taxonomist for 6 years now.  I understand very, very well how taxonomy works both at the morphological and genetic level.

Don't put words in my mouth.  What I meant to say is what I said. " They are genetically and morphological distinct"  and "Gophers are different than bulls big time!"  Bulls get large and are more heavy bodied than any of the gopher subspecies.  Their heads look different and they act different.  I never said completely different.  Again you are putting words in my mouth.

I suggest you read the links I posted before trying to tell me what I mean.

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## Daybreaker

Great bull info: I can't wait to see how big my snow male grows up to be!

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## goopyguy

> Great bull info: I can't wait to see how big my snow male grows up to be!


I did not mean to offend you. I don't see the point in arguing.

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## goopyguy

The only reason I listed pituophis catenifer is that every snake labeled "pituophis catenifer" ssp. is considered a gopher snake. The bull snake is Pituophis Catenifer sayi. So they are technically the same species. Just a different subspecies right? This a question I am not trying to be a prick. I don't know a heck of a lot about taxonomy. I just know that "Pituophis" is the genus and "catenifer" is the species. As far as looking different. I think bull snakes and gophers look and behave very similarly. They may have different colors/patterns but they are not that different. The way I see it, Gopher to bull snake is the same as Eastern Garter to Common garter snake. They are basically the same snake. Just some minor differences.

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## goopyguy

Would it be accurate to describe bull snakes as the largest type of gopher snake?

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## Daybreaker

> I did not mean to offend you. I don't see the point in arguing.


I think you quoted the wrong post  :Smile:

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## Lucas339

> The only reason I listed pituophis catenifer is that every snake labeled "pituophis catenifer" ssp. is considered a gopher snake.


No.  Again, look at the last link I posted. Pituophis catenifer is classified as gophers and bulls.  And this species doesn't even include the cape and baja cape gophers.  Again, stop getting hung up on common names for this.  Read the first link I posted.





> The bull snake is Pituophis Catenifer sayi. So they are technically the same species. Just a different subspecies right? This a question I am not trying to be a prick. I don't know a heck of a lot about taxonomy. I just know that "Pituophis" is the genus and "catenifer" is the species.


As I have said time and time again, it is a multi-species complex.  When scoring animals, sub-species technically score as species when doing stats and such.  Technically speaking, breaking animals up into sub-species really means eventually, given en enough time, they will become their own species due to many factors.  This is an entirely separate subject that would take more than just a few posts to explain.  It also requires understanding of genetics, natural selection and ecology.




> As far as looking different. I think bull snakes and gophers look and behave very similarly. They may have different colors/patterns but they are not that different. The way I see it, Gopher to bull snake is the same as Eastern Garter to Common garter snake. They are basically the same snake. Just some minor differences.


Again, having kept and bred both bulls and gophers, they aren't that similar.  Look at the picture I posted of my big bull.  None of my gophers will ever get this big.  A few species of "gopher" look similar to bulls but if you look at the heads, they don't look at all alike.  I suggest you look up head scale counts for this complex.  This will show you the differences in the head shape and scales.  They also act different.  The majority of my gophers (basins and capes) are secretive while my bulls are more curious.  They even sound different when they are being defensive.

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## goopyguy

> No.  Again, look at the last link I posted. Pituophis catenifer is classified as gophers and bulls.  And this species doesn't even include the cape and baja cape gophers.  Again, stop getting hung up on common names for this.  Read the first link I posted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I have said time and time again, it is a multi-species complex.  When scoring animals, sub-species technically score as species when doing stats and such.  Technically speaking, breaking animals up into sub-species really means eventually, given en enough time, they will become their own species due to many factors.  This is an entirely separate subject that would take more than just a few posts to explain.  It also requires understanding of genetics, natural selection and ecology.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, having kept and bred both bulls and gophers, they aren't that similar.  Look at the picture I posted of my big bull.  None of my gophers will ever get this big.  A few species of "gopher" look similar to bulls but if you look at the heads, they don't look at all alike.  I suggest you look up head scale counts for this complex.  This will show you the differences in the head shape and scales.  They also act different.  The majority of my gophers (basins and capes) are secretive while my bulls are more curious.  They even sound different when they are being defensive.


Cape gophers = Pituophis catenifer vertebralis So technically catenifer does cover cape/ baja gophers.

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## goopyguy

http://www.humboldtherps.com/pituophis.html
 This website seems to clear it up for me

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## Lucas339

You know what, just believe what you want.  The paper I listed clearly splits off the capes from the gopher and bulls.  I posted scientific data, you can believe people's websites.  This is a lost cause.

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## goopyguy

> You know what, just believe what you want.  The paper I listed clearly splits off the capes from the gopher and bulls.  I posted scientific data, you can believe people's websites.  This is a lost cause.


The only thing I was arguing was that the bull snakes are considered a type of gopher snake and are very similar. This doesn't matter if capes are separated. Yes there are some differences between the two. But they are in no way a completely separate species. The difference between bull snakes and gophers are only as large differences between checkered garter snake and butlers garter snakes. They are still both garter snakes. Just like bull snakes and gopher snakes. Saying bull snakes get larger than all other gopher snakes is irrelevant. Different types of gopher snakes are either smaller or larger than other types of gophers. Just because bull snakes tend to be larger than other gopher snakes does not mean the are not gopher snakes. If San Diego gopher snakes get larger than sonorans does that mean sonorans aren't gopher snakes? The paper you provided never said one time that bull snakes are not type of gopher snakes. And If you want to get scientific here you go http://www.asihcopeiaonline.org/doi/...P%5D2.0.CO%3B2  this abstract clearly defines Pituophis catenifer as the Gopher snake. heres more http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...nticated=false. http://www.kingsnake.com/pituophis/species.html This website clearly shows the bull snakes as a type of gopher snake via phylogeny tree. Also, just because you observed different sound and or behavior from two different snakes does not mean they are all that different either. My male and female bull snake act nothing like one another. My male hisses and does all the typical behaviors. My female is feisty until i get her out of her cage. Then she is chilled out like a ball python. Since bull snakes are the same genus and species as most gopher snakes. They are simply a subspecies of gopher. In other words, Bull snakes are a type of gopher snake.

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## Kodieh

The bull snake is as close to a western diamond as I'll ever get. They've got gorgeous patterns.

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## Lucas339

The articles you posted are from 2003 and 2002. The other post was from kingsnake.....who knows how old that is.  The most recent molecular evidence splits the animals as I have said.

But who cares.  You are going to believe what you want.  It is obvious you don't want to deal with facts and want to act like a big shot.  I don't care honestly.  Believe what you want.  The rest of us will rely on facts.  And again you are getting hung up on common name crap.  Just because you have 2 bull snakes doesn't mean you know all of Pituophis.

But keep arguing.

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## Lucas339

> The bull snake is as close to a western diamond as I'll ever get. They've got gorgeous patterns.


You should be out looking for Stillwater locale bulls!  You are in the right location!!

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_Kodieh_ (08-04-2013)

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## Lucas339

> Since bull snakes are the same genus and species as most gopher snakes. They are simply a subspecies of gopher. In other words, Bull snakes are a type of gopher snake.


I guess all carpet pythons are the same as well.  I mean they are all in the same species so there must not be any major differences.  You know, just color, pattern, length, girth, location, genetics......nothing major.  They all "act" like carpet pythons so it must be true.  And hey, it's on the internet.

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## goopyguy

[QUOTE=Lucas339;2119434]I guess all carpet pythons are the same as well.  I mean they are all in the same species so there must not be any major differences.  You know, just color, pattern, length, girth, location, genetics......nothing major.  They all "act" like carpet pythons so it must be true.  And hey, it's on the internet.[/QU

The article you posted does not contradict anything I have said or provided. Also the article is based on the what the specific authors believe to be true. They make suggestions of the classifications. Not the classifications themselves.  You can breed a bull and gopher together. You can breed an iran jaya carpet with a jungle carpet. They don't make hybrids because they are very similar snakes. The offspring can breed and create more because they are extremely similar.  You are attacking my sources but not the information itself. The bull snake is a subspecies of gopher snake. Nothing you have said or the articles provided contradict that. You ignore the other article i posted while attacking the one from king snake. You are right, having two bull snakes don't make me an expert. On the same note. You cannot use your own personal experience with the snakes to note there differences as well. Every snake has it's own personal personality. Heck my bull snakes don't even have the same scale count as each other. You keep hopelessly clinging to an article that really doesn't tell me anything relevant to this conversation. It is a good paper. It is not intended to be empirical proof.

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## goopyguy

"You know, just color, pattern, length, girth, location, genetics......nothing major. They all "act" like carpet pythons so it must be true. And hey, it's on the internet"

Behavior is irrelevant.All the differences can be applied to different bull snake localities as well. I already acknowledge that there are indeed some differences but your making them out to be major differences. The genetics are similar enough that they can produce viable offspring if they are crossed with each other. Species have to be extremely similar to do this. How do we measure the differences between the two?  That is what this conversation is about. We are arguing about how different or similar a gopher snake is to a bull snake. I have already proven they considered at least a subspecies of gopher. You have not debunked my sources. Your sources don't even contribute to this argument. Simply being on the internet does not mean it is wrong.

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## Ronmayron

I have a 7 foot bull snake male, sadly i have no pics on here though!  :Razz:

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