# Lizards > Monitors and Tegus >  Is it legal to sell monitor lizards in pet stores?

## chinchillachic18

ok so this may sound like a stupid question. But is it illegal to sell  certain moniters in pet stores? 

Cause i cant believe what i saw today. I think it was a moniter of some kind..and it was MASSIVE. Probably about the size of my 50lb dog and of course very long..
The cage didnt say what it was either..which made me kinda suspicious. Not to mention the fact that it was going nuts in the "cage" and then there was a sign that said for serious buyers only..as far as them taking it out of the cage. I wish i had taken a picture because it was unbelievable. Does that sound like some kind of moniter?

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## chinchillachic18

and when i say my dog, i mean height wise. it had to be at least 8 feet long

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## snakecharmer3638

That would probably depend on which State and County you lived in. There are different limitations and laws depending on where you live.  :Good Job:

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## mainbutter

Most places it is legal to sell monitor lizards.. but of course not all species are legal.  I'm pretty sure that komodo dragons are highly regulated, while things like savana monitors are pretty easy to get a hold of.

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## N4S

I bought a Savannah from a petstore when I was 15.

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## chinchillachic18

So you could actually get a komodo?!?!? O.O who the hell would want to do that? Someone with a death wish? lol

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## mainbutter

komodos in captivity are pretty tame towards their regular keepers, they most certainly can recognize different people and are more wary of strangers.  I don't know of anyone in the US who owns one in a personal collection, I only know of them in zoos.  The regulations on komodos are not based on possible danger, but because of conservation issues.  Galapagos tortoises, for example, are pretty much the most impossible-to-get reptiles in the world because of conservation issues.

People in the US, depending on location, can legally own gators and caimans and other large, dangerous reptiles.  Heck check out the Hots forum here on ball-pythons.net for people "with a deathwish"  :Very Happy:

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## daniel1983

The monitor you saw was probably a Water Monitor. They are one of the largest species.

Komodos are CITES restricted, so you will only see those in zoos. 

However, monitors are great animals.....just because you can't imagine keeping a lizard as large as a dog.... it does not make those that keep them 'wish for death'. 

They are no more dangerous than a large python as a pet....they just require more space to house and a responsible keeper.

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## crsaz

I bet it was a nile they are much more common than waters(thow both are pretty common)and going crazy in the cage sounds like a typical nile

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## Argentra

It could have been a 'store pet'. The store I go to regularly now has a Black Throat at least 50lbs, and a Rhino Iggy! Yes, he has the permit/license for that last guy, and he was rescued off the internet. Pretty boy, too.  :Smile:

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## anendeloflorien

Huh, I don't know much about monitors but I know that most are legal to sell. I have a buddy who's got at least 50 monitors of different sizes, shapes, and colors. Some of them are around 10+feet and eat whole chickens! They're extremely cool animals and while most are pretty docile when they're that big he loves bitey snappy animals and some of them are just NASTY. Still cool and he's got some extremely rare monitors. He's building a whole shed (it's more like a freaking house) in his backyard just for his big monitors it's gonna be cool!

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## chinchillachic18

yah when they tried to take it out it pretty much tried to maul them. Not a happy camper..and it was drooling which was kinda gross  :Razz:  im sorry if i offended anyone by saying someone with a death wish lol But an animal that aggressive, i think would only be pretty to look at.

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## chinchillachic18

it looked alot like this one

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D1%26hl%3Den

the page says thats a nile.. but to me it seemed to be higher from the ground . Geez i really wish i had taken a picture >.<

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## chinchillachic18

and it seemed alittle fatter than that

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## WingedWolfPsion

Like this?  http://www.rfadventures.com/images/A...nitor-bg-1.jpg

Or like this?  http://www.socialteez.com/images/lizard.jpg

Or maybe this one?  http://www.reptilevillage.net/crocmonitor.gif

The first one is the largest monitor common in the pet trade.  They do get massive.  They can be quite tame, but of course, they are individuals, so the one you saw may not have been.

Nile monitors have a rep for being flighty and defensive.

Croc monitors can be quite tame, but are insanely dangerous to your digits, as their razor-sharp teeth take no prisoners and sever tendons like butter.

Water monitors CAN make great pets, if you know what you're doing.
http://www.bayareareptiles.com/Monit...sianWater1.jpg

Trivia bit:  The reason komodo dragons are so incredibly dangerous is not simply because of their tremendous size.  One bite from a Komodo...even a captive, tame one...may kill you.  While not venomous, they might as well be.  They've evolved a solution at least as effective, if not as immediate, as venom.  Their mouths are loaded with specialized and incredibly virulent bacteria.  
More than 57 different strains, both gram positive and gram negative.  Immediate treatment with massive doses of antibiotics might save you...but it might not.
The Komodo has an excellent sense of smell.  Once its prey begins to die of the virulent infection, it has no problem tracking it down, and devouring it once it's too weak to run any longer.

Even if Komodos weren't a CITES protected endangered species, they would quickly be banned from the pet trade for the tremendous and very real deadly danger they pose.  Zookeepers are all very highly aware of this potential, and treat even dog-tame komodos with respect.

A rough experiment was recently shown on an Animal Planet program.  The host took two nearly identical fresh steaks out of the fridge.  He dribbled Komodo saliva on one, and spit on the other one.

He let them sit for 3 days.

The human-spit steak looked very little different from when he'd taken it out.

The Komodo-spit steak was shockingly decayed and deteriorated, half-eaten away by the hungry bacteria.

Komodos are of great interest because living in alliance with all those bacteria, they must have one hellacious immune system.

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_anendeloflorien_ (10-12-2008),_mischevious21_ (10-12-2008)

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## Skiploder

> Like this?  http://www.rfadventures.com/images/A...nitor-bg-1.jpg
> 
> Or like this?  http://www.socialteez.com/images/lizard.jpg
> 
> Or maybe this one?  http://www.reptilevillage.net/crocmonitor.gif
> 
> The first one is the largest monitor common in the pet trade.  They do get massive.  They can be quite tame, but of course, they are individuals, so the one you saw may not have been.
> 
> Nile monitors have a rep for being flighty and defensive.
> ...


Komodos are in fact venomous.  I would encourage anyone who doubts this to read the relevant research by Dr. Bryan Fry.  It is easily accessible on his website.

In the meantime:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/...s/s1520986.htm

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre...ounts-part-ii/

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## mischevious21

> Komodos are in fact venomous.  I would encourage anyone who doubts this to read the relevant research by Dr. Bryan Fry.  It is easily accessible on his website.
> 
> In the meantime:
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/...s/s1520986.htm
> 
> http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre...ounts-part-ii/



Everything I've ever read about them or seen in documentaries and stuff said that they were not venomous, but that their saliva has so much deadly bacteria in it that they might as well be.. Just like "Winged Wolf" said earlier... That is quite interesting though- I wonder why no one ever figured it out sooner? lol

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## Patrick Long

> Everything I've ever read about them or seen in documentaries and stuff said that they were not venomous, but that their saliva has so much deadly bacteria in it that they might as well be.. Just like "Winged Wolf" said earlier... That is quite interesting though- I wonder why no one ever figured it out sooner? lol


There is new evidence (scientific that is) that proves that the saliva is in fact venomous. I believe in Decembers issue of Reptiles Mag, they talk about this.

Bryan Fry has done a lot for the world of herps. Its actually a great article....


.....but at the end of the day, komodos are venomouse LOL

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## Skiploder

> Everything I've ever read about them or seen in documentaries and stuff said that they were not venomous, but that their saliva has so much deadly bacteria in it that they might as well be.. Just like "Winged Wolf" said earlier... That is quite interesting though- I wonder why no one ever figured it out sooner? lol


I would urge anyone who is interested in reading about this to visit Bryan Fry's site and read his research for themselves - not only about varanids but about colubrids and the relationship between venom and evolution.

People have been debating for quite awhile now that the bite of a komodo monitor kills large animals much more quickly than can be attributed to bacterial septicemia......Fry went and proved it.

Fry's research was published over three years ago - so this is hardly breaking news..........

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## daniel1983

People always argue the fact that monitors are venomous.....Dr. Fry does great research...however, I think he should have coined a new term instead of stating that monitors are venomous. I don't like to use the term venomous when talking about monitors. They are not venomous like rattlesnakes or cobras.....more like western hognose snakes. Not many people talk about hognoses as 'venomous'....

The venom of ANY monitor is not enough to kill a person. 

However, the small amount of venom in a monitor bite does make a bite feel a little different than that of 'non-venomous' reptiles. I have been bitten by monitors numerous times. The only difference in 'feel' between a small monitor bite and a ball python bite is....the monitor bite bleeds more and is sore afterward. It has to do with the anticoagulant properties of the small amount of "venom" contained within their saliva. 

Although the 'venom' amount is in extreamly small amounts with all monitors....the larger the monitor, the larger the bite. Of course large monitor bites will be bad.

A bite from a Komodo, water monitor, croc monitor, or any other larger monitor is going to be horrible with or without "venom"....In my opinion, there would be little difference between being bitten by a 6-7' long monitor than there is getting bit by a 6-7' alligator...they both bite hard and cause deep wounds. With monitors however, there is the small amount of 'venom' in their bite....it makes the wound bleed more and hurt more. Ask Dr. Fry. He has trouble using one of his hands due to a Lace monitor bite....his problems did not occur from any 'venom'....the physical bite damaged his hand so much that function was lost. They are BIG animals.

.....I really think that one day people will use Dr. Fry's research to impose some sort of legislation against monitor keepers....all because they were labeled 'venomous'.

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## Skiploder

> People always argue the fact that monitors are venomous.....Dr. Fry does great research...however, I think he should have coined a new term instead of stating that monitors are venomous. I don't like to use the term venomous when talking about monitors. They are not venomous like rattlesnakes or cobras.....more like western hognose snakes. Not many people talk about hognoses as 'venomous'....
> 
> The venom of ANY monitor is not enough to kill a person. 
> 
> However, the small amount of venom in a monitor bite does make a bite feel a little different than that of 'non-venomous' reptiles. I have been bitten by monitors numerous times. The only difference in 'feel' between a small monitor bite and a ball python bite is....the monitor bite bleeds more and is sore afterward. It has to do with the anticoagulant properties of the small amount of "venom" contained within their saliva. 
> 
> Although the 'venom' amount is in extreamly small amounts with all monitors....the larger the monitor, the larger the bite. Of course large monitor bites will be bad.
> 
> A bite from a Komodo, water monitor, croc monitor, or any other larger monitor is going to be horrible with or without "venom"....In my opinion, there would be little difference between being bitten by a 6-7' long monitor than there is getting bit by a 6-7' alligator...they both bite hard and cause deep wounds. With monitors however, there is the small amount of 'venom' in their bite....it makes the wound bleed more and hurt more. Ask Dr. Fry. He has trouble using one of his hands due to a Lace monitor bite....his problems did not occur from any 'venom'....the physical bite damaged his hand so much that function was lost. They are BIG animals.
> ...


Well then we can agree that while not as dangerous to humans as the venom from what we would consider a true "hot", they do contain glands that produce "bioactive secretions" that are used to immobilize their prey.  It's still venom and while it's not as evolved as that of an elapid and the delivery system is much more primitive, it technically serves the same purpose.

Whether or not people decide to legislate restrictions of ownership of these animals based on the fact that they do produce a venom - albeit one of no significant consequence to an adult human - is a topic that deserves it's own thread.

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## daniel1983

> Whether or not people decide to legislate restrictions of ownership of these animals based on the fact that they do produce a venom - albeit one of no significant consequence to an adult human - is a topic that deserves it's own thread.


I figured that since we were discussing monitor venom in a thread about the legality of selling monitors......discussing legislation concerning monitors would actually be more 'on topic'  :Wink: 

All interesting conversation topics though. I like to talk monitors.

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## Skiploder

> I figured that since we were discussing monitor venom in a thread about the legality of selling monitors......discussing legislation concerning monitors would actually be more 'on topic' 
> 
> All interesting conversation topics though. I like to talk monitors.


I have mixed feelings, Daniel, on whether or not there _should_ be legislation regarding the sale of some reptiles.

The number or nile, croc, water, etc. monitors being sold to people who have no business buying them is obscene, and efforts to educate people or preach ethics to dealers seems to be falling on deaf ears.

I for one, would not be upset in the least if I would be required to obtain a license to keep my boiga, my heterodon, my rufous or even my varanids - as far as I am concerned that little bit of inconvenience would be worth it if it kept these animals out of the hands of people who are unable to care for them.

I attended the Sacramento reptile show last month as was appalled to see what many people would consider reputable breeders selling retics and burms to anyone who had the cash on hand.  It's become obvious to me that as this hobby has become more and more popular, we have been increasingly unable to promote proper ethics to retailers and proper education to consumers.  As a result, we are attracting unwanted attention to our hobby.

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_daniel1983_ (10-12-2008),_gothkenny_ (11-16-2008)

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## daniel1983

I understand that point. The US has a problem though.....we seem to like to do an 'all or nothing' legislation on lots of thing.....

If reptile keeping regulations similar to those in some parts of Australia were established UNIFORMLY thoughout the US....I really would not have issue with it.

The treatment of animals at reptile shows and most pet stores makes me sick. A business's goal is to make money....alot of businesses do it at the cost of the animal. 

Sadly monitors are not 'easy' reptiles to keep......some 90% of those imported die within their first year or so. Sad stuff.

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## hoax

> Like this?  http://www.rfadventures.com/images/A...nitor-bg-1.jpg
> 
> Or like this?  http://www.socialteez.com/images/lizard.jpg
> 
> Or maybe this one?  http://www.reptilevillage.net/crocmonitor.gif
> 
> The first one is the largest monitor common in the pet trade.  They do get massive.  They can be quite tame, but of course, they are individuals, so the one you saw may not have been.
> 
> Nile monitors have a rep for being flighty and defensive.
> ...


Actually they are venomous. I just watched a special on them and they have a slow acting venom. The venom gland is located in the bottom jaw and it secretes from the gum line that is part of the reason why they seem to drool all the time. I also thought they were not venomous but needless to say I was very surprised.

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