# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Opinions on breeding young / small females

## Wh00h0069

What is your opinion on breeding young females? For example, a female that is 1.5 years and 1100  1200 grams.

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## Gloryhound

I know some have had success breeding females this small and hats off to them.  Generally speaking 1500 grams is a nice number to start at.  People like to push envelopes and I think a lot of people have probably pushed the 1500 gram envelope that seems to be the common number on the site as well as 2 winters old.  While yes younger and smaller snakes have been bred successfully I think we have to watch what we say when discussions are in public forums like this.  All you need to do is find someone who does not have the proper experience to read their snakes (or thinks they do, but really don't) start searching on the web and see some rediculously light wieght ball python can be bread and they will try it.  I know I don't have the experience yet to even think about breeding a female less than 1500 grams, but I did find Jasballs discussion on it facinating.

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## Wh00h0069

> I know some have had success breeding females this small and hats off to them.  Generally speaking 1500 grams is a nice number to start at.  People like to push envelopes and I think a lot of people have probably pushed the 1500 gram envelope that seems to be the common number on the site as well as 2 winters old.  While yes younger and smaller snakes have been bred successfully I think we have to watch what we say when discussions are in public forums like this.  All you need to do is find someone who does not have the proper experience to read their snakes (or thinks they do, but really don't) start searching on the web and see some rediculously light wieght ball python can be bread and they will try it.  I know I don't have the experience yet to even think about breeding a female less than 1500 grams, but I did find Jasballs discussion on it facinating.


From other discussions that I have had, I have came to the conclusion that it will not hurt the female to try to breed her if she is too small or too young. If she is not ready, she will not go. If she is, then she will. No harm done. What are your thoughts?

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## anatess

I have read in several places (I haven't bred anything but rats!) that if a female is too small, she could still get pregnant but would be in great risk of egg-binding which can be fatal.

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## Wh00h0069

> I have read in several places (I haven't bred anything but rats!) that if a female is too small, she could still get pregnant but would be in great risk of egg-binding which can be fatal.


I have heard of that also, but have not actually heard of any actual accounts of it happening. I heard it from people that heard it from others, that heard it from others. I wonder if breeding young / small females increases the chance of egg-binding. I have also heard of egg-binding happening to large females too.

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## jsmorphs2

Not only do you have to worry about her being big enough to pass the eggs (if she does become gravid) but you also need to consider her weight because females expend a lot of energy and nutrients to develop eggs. The risk of loosing your female and a clutch of eggs is extremely high.

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## Wh00h0069

> Not only do you have to worry about her being big enough to pass the eggs (if she does become gravid) but you also need to consider her weight because females expend a lot of energy and nutrients to develop eggs. The risk of loosing your female and a clutch of eggs is extremely high.


Good point. Do you think that a smaller female would have smaller eggs and not as many, so would use the same ratio of energy and nutrients as a larger female that lays larger and more eggs?

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## greghall

most smaller snakes will have smaller eggs,larger snakes will have larger eggs.

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_Wh00h0069_ (12-23-2008)

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## littleindiangirl

Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?

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## Wh00h0069

> Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?


Yes it is.

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## stevenkeogh

I personally believe that it is better that most don't have the experiences to share with the rest. Shows restraint and commitment to upholding a higher standard of treatment to the animals that we are claiming to have profound respect for.
I for one will never have the first-hand knowledge of whether a 1 kilo female can successfully breed. 
There's always next year.
-Steven

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granny farbuckle (02-21-2009)

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## Gloryhound

> From other discussions that I have had, I have came to the conclusion that it will not hurt the female to try to breed her if she is too small or too young. If she is not ready, she will not go. If she is, then she will. No harm done. What are your thoughts?


I've heard it both ways.  From long time breeders on both sides of the coin.  Most long time breeders that did discuss the breeding of smaller snakes also made a point of saying "you have to know how to read your animals before trying this."  With that said I don't think any first year breeder can read their animals sufficiently enough to make that call.

At this time for my wife and I we decided that when dealing with living animals, particularly considering they are pets as well as breeders, it is best to error more on the side of caution using 1500 Grams as a minimum weight for females.  I know some on the site use an even more conservative number of 1800 or more grams.

Additionally I would think smaller babies run more risks than larger ones.  Smaller eggs come from smaller females.  A beginning breeder would have to be in a really big hurry, kinda like a business deadline, to risk not only the mommy snake, but also the babies.

If a beginner can't just sit back and wait it out the extra year, go get a large enough female to breed as they are forsale.  If they can not afford the large normal girl to breed then wait another year.  If you can't do one of those things then I have to ask what was that persons reason for getting into Ball Pythons in the first place?  Our Ball Pythons are pets first and formost.  Would I like to start breeding some of the morph females I have in my collection right now?  You bet!  Will I?  Unfortunately only one Het made weight this year and with any luck we have a pastel female and an Albino female who are just 100 to 200 grams light (when empty) that may get a chance late in the year if everything else is looking good!  On a side note we have 3 normal females that we bought at breeding weight, last spring, that are already paired up and messin with the guys!  :Smile:

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## jsmorphs2

> Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?


I agree. You never want to endanger your animals with bad husbandry practices.

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_Eventide_ (09-01-2009)

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## Wh00h0069

> I personally believe that it is better that most don't have the experiences to share with the rest. Shows restraint and commitment to upholding a higher standard of treatment to the animals that we are claiming to have profound respect for.
> I for one will never have the first-hand knowledge of whether a 1 kilo female can successfully breed. 
> There's always next year.
> -Steven


I thought that forums were here for discussion. I am trying to discuss with fellow herpers to find out if breeding small / young females is harmful or not.

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## Wh00h0069

> I've heard it both ways.  From long time breeders on both sides of the coin.  Most long time breeders that did discuss the breeding of smaller snakes also made a point of saying "you have to know how to read your animals before trying this."  With that said I don't think any first year breeder can read their animals sufficiently enough to make that call.
> 
> At this time for my wife and I we decided that when dealing with living animals, particularly considering they are pets as well as breeders, it is best to error more on the side of caution using 1500 Grams as a minimum weight for females.  I know some on the site use an even more conservative number of 1800 or more grams.
> 
> Additionally I would think smaller babies run more risks than larger ones.  Smaller eggs come from smaller females.  A beginning breeder would have to be in a really big hurry, kinda like a business deadline, to risk not only the mommy snake, but also the babies.
> 
> If a beginner can't just sit back and wait it out the extra year, go get a large enough female to breed as they are forsale.  If they can not afford the large normal girl to breed then wait another year.  If you can't do one of those things then I have to ask what was that persons reason for getting into Ball Pythons in the first place?  Our Ball Pythons are pets first and formost.  Would I like to start breeding some of the morph females I have in my collection right now?  You bet!  Will I?  Unfortunately only one Het made weight this year and with any luck we have a pastel female and an Albino female who are just 100 to 200 grams light (when empty) that may get a chance late in the year if everything else is looking good!  On a side note we have 3 normal females that we bought at breeding weight, last spring, that are already paired up and messin with the guys!


All very good points. And good luck with your pairings.  :Good Job:

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## Gloryhound

> All very good points. And good luck with your pairings.


Thanks, and good luck with your projects as well!

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## stevenkeogh

> I thought that forums were here for discussion. I am trying to discuss with fellow herpers to find out if breeding small / young females is harmful or not.


And my post was a reply to the one stating that they thought it was a shame that the people with the first-hand experience to share were not here to do so.
Maybe, but it is much better than having multitudes of individuals possibly putting snakes in jeopardy by breeding them under weight.
If this is a discussion then why is the validity of my post being questioned? 
You wanted opinions, there is mine.
If you are just looking for reassurance when breeding young females then maybe you should have posted something along those lines.
-Steven

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## stevenkeogh

If there was absolutely no danger I'm pretty confident that there would be no 1500g guideline. 
I should clarify, the 1500g rule is the consensus up here in Canada.
Seems that the forums frequented by mostly Americans prefer 1200g.
They are your animals, nobody is going to be able to stop you from endangering any of them. So I hope for your success.
-Steven

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## MDB

> From other discussions that I have had, I have came to the conclusion that it will not hurt the female to try to breed her if she is too small or too young. If she is not ready, she will not go. If she is, then she will. No harm done. What are your thoughts?


I feel the same way but still needs to be atleast 1200 in my opinion or very close to it

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?


Yep!

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## Vibrant Balls

Here is another thought.

If the female is bred under 1500g, wouldn't the eggs be smaller and also make it much harder to raise up the hatchlings? Or would they still be large eggs and just be less of them?  :Confused: 

To each their own I guess. I'd stick with the 1500g minimum, but everyone has the right to their own judgement and opinion.   :Smile:

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## littleindiangirl

Well, here's me sticking my big head back into the mess. We had eggs come from our girl that wasn't up to the "magic" weight of 1500, and she gave us 4 very nice eggs, but they were also all around 100 grams when we weighed them. I don't want to say they weighed 100 grams coming out, because if I have it right we didn't weigh right away, so they very well could have put on some grams inbetween the time they were laid and we weighed them. (Egg's breathe, they absorb and release water weight every day, and they lose quite a bit as they get closer to hatching.)

Now this isn't to say that a small female won't have physically small eggs, but I rather expect her to have less eggs. I'm not sure how true all of this is in regards to the whole, it's just what happened in our situation.

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## Adam_Wysocki

Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.

According to my records ...

1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)

2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).

3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.

4. Females bred at under 1500 grams or younger than their third winter will have smaller clutches and generally never produce more than 4 - 6 viable eggs a clutch no matter how large they grow later in life ... for example, in 1998 I bred a 1200 gram female het albino in her second winter ... she laid 4 eggs and produced 1 albino ... she's now over 3500 grams and still only lays about 6 viable eggs a year while other 3500 gram girls that I have that were bred for the first time at 1500 grams and over lay 10 and even 12 egg clutches for me.

5. Many times, females that I attempt to breed in their second winter will go off feed for a significant amount of time once introduced to a male ... and if they don't end up producing, that fast has a severe impact on my ability to maximize their potential breeding size for the following season when their odds of producing are much higher.

Do I breed females in their second winter and under 1500 grams? ... I sure do ... I take the shot every year with a very small number of girls that I personally feel have a shot at going ... After years of doing this, I feel that I have a sense for a female that has a chance over a young girl that will give me nothing.

Have I seen any negative impacts to the health of a female ball python by breeding her young or attempting to breed her young? ... Absolutely not ... In my experience, if they're not ready to lay eggs, they won't ... I've never had a female become egg bound by being bred too young or too small, but I've had several older girls that have become egg bound from twisted oviducts.

Do I suggest breeding females in their second winter? ... Not for me to say ... My personal feeling is that it's for each individual keeper to educate themselves and make that decision ... I do what's best for ME and MY COLLECTION ... the only thing that I suggest is for others to do what's best for THEM and THEIR COLLECTION. There's a lot of judgmental people in this hobby/business, don't let them bother you ... experiment, try things, learn ... rise and fall on your own experiences ... don't let a so called "internet expert" prevent you from trying something "outside the box".

Hope this helps.

-adam

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## MarkS

I personally think that age is more important then size.  I feel comfortable breeding anything over 3 years of age no matter what size they are.  If they don't want to lay eggs, they don't

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granny farbuckle (02-21-2009),_mooingtricycle_ (09-03-2009)

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## Wh00h0069

> Thanks, and good luck with your projects as well!


Thank you!  :Smile:

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## Wh00h0069

> If there was absolutely no danger I'm pretty confident that there would be no 1500g guideline. 
> I should clarify, the 1500g rule is the consensus up here in Canada.
> Seems that the forums frequented by mostly Americans prefer 1200g.
> They are your animals, nobody is going to be able to stop you from endangering any of them. So I hope for your success.
> -Steven


I'm sorry. I must have mis-read your original post. I thought you were saying that I should not have posted this discussion, because I was somehow mistreating my animals by breeding them young / small, and condoning others to mistreat their animals. If that is not the case, I apologize.

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## Wh00h0069

> Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.
> 
> According to my records ...
> 
> 1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)
> 
> 2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).
> 
> 3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.
> ...


Adam, 
     Thank you very much for you insight into this, and great post. This is the post that I was looking for. I know a lot of people say dont' breed them young / small, but they have never tried. I am very glad that a professional could chime in with personal experience.

Thanks again,

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## Wh00h0069

> Here is another thought.
> 
> If the female is bred under 1500g, wouldn't the eggs be smaller and also make it much harder to raise up the hatchlings? Or would they still be large eggs and just be less of them? 
> 
> To each their own I guess. I'd stick with the 1500g minimum, but everyone has the right to their own judgement and opinion.


I don't think this is the case. The reason I say this is because I had two sets of twins this season. Each twin was half the size of all of their single-egg clutch mates. I had no problem getting them to eat, and they are all four doing just fine. Actually I held back the twin spider females, and neither has missed a meal to this day.

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## PastelDreamMorphs

> Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.
> 
> According to my records ...
> 
> 1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)
> 
> 2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).
> 
> 3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.
> ...


Adam I agree with you 100% and I don't think that could have been said any better :Good Job:  :Good Job: 

Good luck this year with your projects also Adam and have a safe and happy holiday  :Smile:

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## 771subliminal

at what point does age come into play? if you have a girl in her 3rd winter @ 800-900 grams do you wait go for it and what if she is only 1100-1200 in her 4th?

if you look at people grown women that have perfectly healthy babies and no problem with child birth range from our little people of 3ft to women of 7ft+ and all most likely will birth a avg size new born baby. 

are there the little bps? we have seen the giants

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## RuGGeR

> at what point does age come into play? if you have a girl in her 3rd winter @ 800-900 grams do you wait go for it and what if she is only 1100-1200 in her 4th?
> 
> if you look at people grown women that have perfectly healthy babies and no problem with child birth range from our little people of 3ft to women of 7ft+ and all most likely will birth a avg size new born baby. 
> 
> are there the little bps? we have seen the giants


A very good point there boss.....

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## blackcrystal22

If there is a high risk, I just won't take it.
When I do breed, I will not breed until it hits 1500+ grams or is 3 years old.

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## hobbyist

Ok, So I have a question for readers of this thread/forum

I have to temporarily house two of my snakes together while I order heat tape and build an enclosure for them as well as other snakes coming in. I have a full grown 5' and over 1500 gram male, a 2.5' young male, and a 2' young female. The female i'm estimating is about 500 grams. I am going to house the two in a 100 gallon tank with 4 hides- two on each side of the temperature gradient. They have all been near each other, and quarantined adequately. 
I'm worried that if I stick my female and the young male in the cage together, that they would attempt to breed- and possibly jeopardize the female's life if she becomes egg-bound. I'm not even sure if she's capable of breeding yet- nor the male for that reason. I dont want to stick the big one in with the others, because i'm worried about size problems. 
It's only temporary, a few weeks at most.

What should I do?
thanks

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## greghall

> Ok, So I have a question for readers of this thread/forum
> 
> I have to temporarily house two of my snakes together while I order heat tape and build an enclosure for them as well as other snakes coming in. I have a full grown 5' and over 1500 gram male, a 2.5' young male, and a 2' young female. The female i'm estimating is about 500 grams. I am going to house the two in a 100 gallon tank with 4 hides- two on each side of the temperature gradient. They have all been near each other, and quarantined adequately. 
> I'm worried that if I stick my female and the young male in the cage together, that they would attempt to breed- and possibly jeopardize the female's life if she becomes egg-bound. I'm not even sure if she's capable of breeding yet- nor the male for that reason. I dont want to stick the big one in with the others, because i'm worried about size problems. 
> It's only temporary, a few weeks at most.
> 
> What should I do?
> thanks


no if the female is not ready she won't lift her tail & breed,no folicals no eggs to be fertilize & bind.

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hobbyist (12-27-2008)

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## Sebrina

I started gathering in 06'ish I did get one that was an 05. My females are now roughly 1600+ grams and ready they weren't last year and waiting for a good end result is much more satisfying than rushing and killing your snake (in my opinion).

If you can't get a clutch THIS year due to a small female buy a regular full size female a few years older and a chance hey it's better than killing a small snake. Not to mention most simply won't breed.

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## SGExotics

i always, and will continue to always wait till the female is over 1500 grams to be on the safe side, my the females breeding right now are over 1500 grams...

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## Gloryhound

> Ok, So I have a question for readers of this thread/forum
> 
> I have to temporarily house two of my snakes together while I order heat tape and build an enclosure for them as well as other snakes coming in. I have a full grown 5' and over 1500 gram male, a 2.5' young male, and a 2' young female. The female i'm estimating is about 500 grams. I am going to house the two in a 100 gallon tank with 4 hides- two on each side of the temperature gradient. They have all been near each other, and quarantined adequately. 
> I'm worried that if I stick my female and the young male in the cage together, that they would attempt to breed- and possibly jeopardize the female's life if she becomes egg-bound. I'm not even sure if she's capable of breeding yet- nor the male for that reason. I dont want to stick the big one in with the others, because i'm worried about size problems. 
> It's only temporary, a few weeks at most.
> 
> What should I do?
> thanks


For around $75.00 + the T-stat (which you probably already have for the 100 gallon tank.) you can build a nice 32qt 3 tub rack.  Price includes flex watt and tubs.  As a general rule for building buget racks I put the price down as $25 per level + the overall cost of the T-stat, but if you go less than 3 levels the cost overall goes down, but the cost per level goes up and vise versa if you go taller.  If I put my mind to it I can easily build one on a day off.  At this point no reason exists to do what you are intending to do since you already have some kind of seperation due to quarantine that you can keep up for another week or two while you build the rack.

On the other hand if you do have to do it you should be OK as far as actual breeding possibly taking place since the female will not cooperate.  The only additional issue I see here is you will have 2 males and 1 female in an enclosure if I am reading it correctly.  I'm not sure if this may cause some fighting between the males as part of the mating ritual.  I have never personally put two males together in one enclosure and do not really have any intention of trying.

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## MattZ BallZ

my thoughts on the size is if shes ready she will go, if not she will not.  but with my animals i wait till i know her weight is up and if i feel she can handle it, im thinking weights of around 1300g and up.  by that size they typically are big enough to breed but remember that a snake could be 1500 g but not have a good fat reserve and may not be a good idea to breed as she will have trouble with the fasting. if any of my snakes miss meals and or goes off feed and depends how long i take her out my breeding plans, unless she begines to eat again.  so far so good i got some females from 1350g to 3500 g breeding this season but they are still pounding food back with no problems so im sure the smaller ones will put on weight in 2 or 3 months of feeding before they go off feed for the lay.  but typiccaly after laying females become rat heads (crack heads)  lol   and start eating like theres no tomorrow..  well thats my thought on the topic feel free to comment.. :Snake:

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## Lexcorn

Ya,

I am one of those who fall under the cautious heading.

My preference is to postpone breeding until the female is 1800 - 2000grams minimum.

Not a huge number of years behind me in the B.P. breeding, however, many with regards to the corn snake.

Again I prefer to wait until the corn female is around 500 gram. 

Although the ever quoted mantra jumps to mind " All the 3's" - i.e. 3 foot length, 3 years old & 300 grams 

I consider the age of the animal to be relevant as I feel the 3 years allows for the individual to, not only, sexually mature, but, also, mentally mature.  

The other words of wisdom are quite optimistic as a 300 gram female corn is not a large animal.

One previous poster suggested that to wait another year is not a bad thing in a Breeding Programme & I agree with this statement.

A larger female, whatever the species, should provide a larger clutch of eggs & that is definately worth the wait. 

I would stress, however, that each indivdual will make up his/her own mind as to the time to breed a female B.P.

There is a risk inherent with any breeding be it animal or human.

Lex

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## Kryptonian

I would rather wait till shes at least 2-3 years and 1500+ grams. I think, whats the hurry? If you are in it for the hobby then it will be worth the wait then you know you have a nice healthy mature female who will give you a nice healthy clutch of eggs that will hopefully hatch some good sized healthy babies. Sounds like more fun that way then breeding to small and then worrying about the female. I dont power feed for the same reason. I want my girls big and muscular and in perfect shape to have babies, not fat from over feeding just so they look big. Each one of my girls is a pet not just for breedng and Id feel awful if one got sick becuase i bred her to soon.

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granny farbuckle (02-21-2009)

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## Wh00h0069

> I would rather wait till shes at least 2-3 years and 1500+ grams. I think, whats the hurry? If you are in it for the hobby then it will be worth the wait then you know you have a nice healthy mature female who will give you a nice healthy clutch of eggs that will hopefully hatch some good sized healthy babies. Sounds like more fun that way then breeding to small and then worrying about the female. I dont power feed for the same reason. I want my girls big and muscular and in perfect shape to have babies, not fat from over feeding just so they look big. Each one of my girls is a pet not just for breedng and Id feel awful if one got sick becuase i bred her to soon.


The big hurry is creating a new morph that I do not have, and also producing morphs to sell. For example, this year I have a pastel het ghost female that is approximately 1200 grams and 1.5 years old. I also have a pastel ghost to breed to her. Some people would wait to breed her until the following year. I decided to breed her this year. If she goes for me, then I could possibly produce super pastel ghosts this season as opposed to waiting until next season. I am also in the same boat with a het pied female and a pied male. If she goes for me, then I could produce pieds this season. I do not feel that it in any way harms the females. So why wait? In my opinion, if the females are ready, then they will give me eggs. If they are not, then they will not.

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## Egapal

> if you look at people grown women that have perfectly healthy babies and no problem with child birth range from our little people of 3ft to women of 7ft+ and all most likely will birth a avg size new born baby.


Please please please do not compare human fertility to ball python fertility.  Humans being primates we are by definition mammals and therefore don't lay eggs.  This makes our reproduction different enough that I think any comparison is going to be pointless.  

That being said woman die during child birth all the time and many many more would if not for expert medical care.  Extremely young women as well as extremely old woman (over 35, sorry ladies) put themselves and there unborn children at greater risk.  Weight also plays a huge role in woman's fertility. 

I am not making any judgment calls here at all.  I just think you have to ask yourself why you are doing what you are doing and see how you feel about it.  

Personally I would not breed a female BP until her 3rd breeding season and only after she was over 1500 grams.  I base this solely on the prevailing wisdom of books I have read and sites like this.  I am not in the habit of rolling the dice with my animals health and well being.

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granny farbuckle (02-01-2009),_Quiet Tempest_ (05-05-2009)

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## Oxylepy

I'd breed them if it was breeding season and the snake was 1500g or larger, regardless of age. And if a snake was 2 years old. plump, but short and was only 1200g, I'd breed her.

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## granny farbuckle

One other point that I don't think has been mentioned is the shape of an individual snake.  Some of my girls are fairly short for their weight and age, good solid looking girls, whilst the one morph girl that I was wanting to breed from in order to get a nice combo morph is of course not like that  :Wag of the finger:   No she is going to be a really big girl as she is l-o-n-g and slim.  This being the case I have decided  :Sad:  not to breed her until she is 1750 grams or more. As has been said by others, my snakes are my pets and I will just have to behave myself and think of her welfare more than my impatience !!!!   :Sigh2: 

Whilst typing this someone has made the same point about shape...

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## Oxylepy

Haha, yeah. It is more about the shape and size. I remember hearing that 500g times each foot of their body length is a good way to figure out if they are safe to breed. So if your snake is 2~3 foot you could probably safely breed under 1500g, but if you have a 5' female you should probably not breed her at 1500g.

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h00blah (08-13-2009)

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## mechnut450

I have had it happen wit hno problem  but the female in question was only 1300 grams. IT was also an unplanned event since i had to treat the room for mite and only had her and cage mate  about 3 weeks.  I was possible she was already gravid when I got them.   I had ot treat the entire colelction for mites cause I had some on some cloths and they migrated into the snake room on me ( I used my bedroom as aqt room cause lack of proper space for a qt room)and had to do cage cleaning that mornig and a mite was on my cloths which causea population explosion in the snake room and I had to place all the snake inpillow cases and in the same room. 

anyhow  there are a lot of possible issues that can show up during the time she carrying the eggs and  after she lays them.  it hard,  egg binding is one of the major ones. I also had the snake adopted out befoer she laid and the guy was waiting  for her to drop to pick her up, I only let her go  after she ate 3 times since i took the eggs and used an incubator.

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## Damon Theis

I didn't read the 5 pages of this thread, just chiming in.
My experience has been this.
I breed 2 year old females all the time with success that are around the 1500g mark and are "stout".
I have never had good success breeding 2 year old females that are 1200g mark or are not "stout".
-d

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_jkobylka_ (08-11-2009)

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## jkobylka

Without reading all the prevous posts...

I have produced from 1100g females before, had nice hatchlings... And still regretted it. Reason: I feed her back up really hood and if I'm lucky she get up to 1300-1400g for the next season. So I get another tiny clutch from her. The same goes for the next season. 

Point is that I have jumped the gun and now I'll fall behind in the long run as the bigger girls are giving normal and large clutches. 


Justin

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_AlexisFitzy_ (03-01-2015),_scutechute_ (08-12-2009),_Wh00h0069_ (08-11-2009)

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## Wh00h0069

> Without reading all the prevous posts...
> 
> I have produced from 1100g females before, had nice hatchlings... And still regretted it. Reason: I feed her back up really hood and if I'm lucky she get up to 1300-1400g for the next season. So I get another tiny clutch from her. The same goes for the next season. 
> 
> Point is that I have jumped the gun and now I'll fall behind in the long run as the bigger girls are giving normal and large clutches. 
> 
> 
> Justin


Hi Justin, thanks for you insight. From my understanding, what you described seems to be the consensus. Breeding smaller females can be done, but may not be the best in the long run not because their health but because it will take longer for them to start laying large clutches.

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## Jason Bowden

I shoot for the 40 inch mark with my up and coming females.  If they don't make it, they get another year.

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## MarkS

> Hi Justin, thanks for you insight. From my understanding, what you described seems to be the consensus. Breeding smaller females can be done, but may not be the best in the long run not because their health but because it will take longer for them to start laying large clutches.


Actually I kind of disagree with this.  In my experience, the smaller to mid sized girls are more likely to lay every year.  Perhaps because it takes less time to get them back up to _they're_ ideal breeding weight.  Whereas many of my largest girls are more likely to take every other year off.  Personally I'd rather get a 5-6 egg clutch every year then a 10-11 egg clutch every other year.

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## Kryptonian

I too go with the 1500 g rule, and will under no circumstance breed one that is lighter. My girl that just layed was 2000 before laying and now shes 1100 right after. She was 1800+ when i paired her.Her eggs were 612 g. She has eaten a bit already so I will weigh her agian soon. Just from that alone I couldnt see breeding a small female just incase that female too lost alot, then her life would be in danger.
I bought a female last year in hopes to breed her, and she was sold to me as a breedable female. She was supposed to be 1300g, so I thought a couple hundered grams gained wouldnt be long. Well this girl was actually less than 1100 and she had eating issues. So for the last year I have been working on her feeding and letting her gain weight slowly. She is now 1400gs. So if she doesnt gain the weight with her normal freedings by fall then she will not be bred.
As far as my pastel, I cant wait till she is big enough simply becuase I want a bee. Some might try to breed her this season, shes close to 1000g but I wont so looks like another year or more before I get a bee.

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## Wh00h0069

> Actually I kind of disagree with this.  In my experience, the smaller to mid sized girls are more likely to lay every year.  Perhaps because it takes less time to get them back up to _they're_ ideal breeding weight.  Whereas many of my largest girls are more likely to take every other year off.  Personally I'd rather get a 5-6 egg clutch every year then a 10-11 egg clutch every other year.


Good point Mark.




> I too go with the 1500 g rule, and will under no circumstance breed one that is lighter. My girl that just layed was 2000 before laying and now shes 1100 right after. She was 1800+ when i paired her.Her eggs were 612 g. She has eaten a bit already so I will weigh her agian soon. Just from that alone I couldnt see breeding a small female just incase that female too lost alot, then her life would be in danger.


Hi, from my experience smaller females lay smaller clutches and smaller eggs, so laying a clutch of eggs would not put the females life in danger. For example, one of my 1200 girls layed four eggs. She now weighs approximately 900 grams, and is eating great. Your female lost 900 grams, but she layed a large clutch of large eggs. The egg ratio is the same though.

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## coolluigi007

Alright guys/gals. I got a interesting point/experience this last year.
I personally have always thought the 1500 gram rule. Thats what I've heard through all over the net and from my friends. This last year one of my largest girls (Well over 1800 grams) became egg bound with the last two eggs. As far as I know, she is well over two years old. Now, the other end of the coin. One of the normal, wild types I bought from a friend this year laid 5 eggs for me. (Now he shound not have tried to breed her IMO, so don't yell at me, I know this was dumb.) When I weighed her after she laid eggs and she was 800 grams!!!! With the eggs she could have weighed no more than 1100 grams! Now she laid fine and the eggs are still cooking in the 'bator, but my 1800 gram girl got egg bound with the same number of eggs? Now the egg size is quite different, but it was the same number.... I still tell anyone getting into the hobby, buying from me to wait for 1500 grams... but they're animals... there is no one in the wild saying "Oh no! wait until you're heavier until you breed!!"  I'm not supporting those who breed young/light... Just showing my experiences.

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## pavlovk1025

My opinion is this...in the wild they will breed whenever they are ready. They dont sit there and eat and eat, climb onto a scale and refuse a male suitor if they're not making weight. Prey is hard enough to come by, who's to say that a 900 gm female or a 1100gm female will refuse breeding in the wild? At the end of the day we captively breed WILD animals, who have their own WILD instincts and they themselves know better than you or I when they are ready to take.

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_Wh00h0069_ (08-13-2009)

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## Kryptonian

I see good points from both sides, but I will continue to go with 1500g. That way you are likely to get a bigger clutch with bigger eggs which will be bigger babies. Especially with morphs. If I want to make a bee I think ill have a better chance when my female is over 1500, as she will prob have more eggs. The wait is definately gruelling but will be worth it in the end. :Smile:

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## rabernet

> The big hurry is creating a new morph that I do not have, and also producing morphs to sell. For example, this year I have a pastel het ghost female that is approximately 1200 grams and 1.5 years old. I also have a pastel ghost to breed to her. Some people would wait to breed her until the following year. I decided to breed her this year. If she goes for me, then I could possibly produce super pastel ghosts this season as opposed to waiting until next season. I am also in the same boat with a het pied female and a pied male. If she goes for me, then I could produce pieds this season. I do not feel that it in any way harms the females. So why wait? In my opinion, if the females are ready, then they will give me eggs. If they are not, then they will not.


I'm curious - did she go for you this year?

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## Wh00h0069

> I'm curious - did she go for you this year?


Hi, no she didn't. I tried to breed three 1200 gram females this season. Two did not go for me and one did. The pastel het ghost female never produced follicles, or at least ones that I could feel; although, she did lock with my pastel ghost male a few times. The het pied female did produce follicles, but the male was not ready. The yellow belly that did give me eggs produced four perfect eggs that are still in the bator.

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## rabernet

Thanks Eddie!

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## Wh00h0069

> Thanks Eddie!


You're welcome.

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## boasandballs

> Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?


lol, it's because we are all trying to save those small females.  No.  I have breed small females (1100-1200) grams and big females (2000-up).  Now with the use of the ultrasound I can see that a female is producing follicles and thus I feel her body feels it is safe to produce young.  

The female that was the smallest was 1100 grams going into the breeding season.  She continued to eat very well and produced some beautiful bumble bees several years ago.  I she got up over 1200 grams before she stopped eating.  The following season she took the year off and them produced again each year after that.  I have 2 of the babies from that first year and know where one other is and they are all doing very well.  

I believe that in the wild the females would be able to eat when ever they wanted and as much as they want.  They will produce follicles when they are ready to reproduce and attract a male when it is time.  If it is not time, and their bodies would be in jeopardy if they were to become gravid they would not. 

ps. I have only lost 1 to egg binding, one other became egg bound and now I do not breed her at all.  We have aproxamatly 350 ball pythons 100+ boas, and lots other reptiles.

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## Jay_Bunny

While I'm very tempted to just throw a male in with my normal girl, I will wait. She is approaching 1500g and might actually be there right now (haven't weighed her since her last meal), but she was 1800g last season and dropped down to 1300 after laying eggs. I want her to at least 1700g (if I'm feeling particularly patient, I will wait till 1800g) before introducing a male. 

Now, 1500g is a general rule for me, but if I ever have a female that I am really itching to breed and the season is starting and I put her on the scale and she weighs in at 1400g, I'm going to try and breed her.

A few people in this thread have said they have experienced smaller eggs and therefore, smaller hatchlings. My first ever hatchling weighed in at 37g at hatching. Very small little guy and I'm still struggling to get him started. I would much rather breed a medium to larger female (1400+) and get a nice sized clutch with normal sized hatchlings than get tiny babies.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Adam's post made me change my mind--I'll be waiting three years, even if my females are up to 1500 by the second year.  I want to maximize the productivity of my holdback females--especially the ones I held back specifically because their dam lays 13 egg clutches. ^_^.
When I think about the potential cumulative loss over time if I don't wait...well, it's just not worth it to jump the gun.

Has anyone had a female bred under age 3 go on to produce 8 or more egg clutches?

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## Damon Theis

> Adam's post made me change my mind--I'll be waiting three years, even if my females are up to 1500 by the second year.  I want to maximize the productivity of my holdback females--especially the ones I held back specifically because their dam lays 13 egg clutches. ^_^.
> When I think about the potential cumulative loss over time if I don't wait...well, it's just not worth it to jump the gun.
> 
> Has anyone had a female bred under age 3 go on to produce 8 or more egg clutches?


I'll let you know next year.  There were three 7 egg clutches this year from females I produced, each of which where bred at 18 months.  It's all in the genetics.  The grand dam is a big beach...

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## Wh00h0069

An update from this breedings season. I did not do to well and only four girls produce for me.  :Tears:  The girls weight in grams and year born were: 1200 and '07, 1600 and '06, 2500 and '05, and 2500 and '05. The two 2500 gram girls were second year producers. The 1200 gram girl laid four perfect eggs. One of the 2500 gram girls laid eight perfect eggs. The 1600 gram girl laid six eggs, but become egg-bound on the last egg. The other 2500 gram girl laid five eggs, but became egg-bound on the last three eggs. Luckily I was able to get the eggs out of the two females, and they are doing fine now. I have no idea why the two females became egg-bound, but I do not think that it has anything to do with weight or age. They were able to get the other eggs out fine, and one of the girls was 2500 grams, which is way over the suggested breeding weight.

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## PythonChick

The only female that I bred this year was a second year female. That being said, I feel like I was reading her behavior and she was showing me all the signs that she was ready to go. She weighed 1600 grams the first time I bred her, and was quite stocky for her length. She crammed in the food and kept eating up until two weeks before she ovulated. Just before she layed her eggs she weighed in at 1900 grams. 

I think I read the signs right, because she produced 7 perfect eggs with no issue in mid July, and has already bounced back to around 1500 grams. 

I also had another second year female I considered breeding. She was not giving me any of the same signs though, and she tried to go off food early in the season. She has hovered around 1300 grams for nearly a year now, and I did not ever really consider breeding her after observing her behavior. I think it can be done, but each animal needs to be considered as an individual, and that the general rule for a LARGE MAJORITY of females should be wait until the third year.

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## wRobio

My smallest planned breeding this year was my largest female pastel. Before I decided to breed her, I watched her eating habits for a while, and knowing that she was a really amazing eater before she was bred, I decided to let her do it. Started breeding her at 1200, she stopped eating around 1500, and laid 7 perfect eggs on October 19th. She is not back to being close to 1500, and has a few hundred grams to go before she is back to what I would call a healthy weight. 

I also got a 50% poss. het ghost, who arrived at 760gms, she was a little underweight, and three months after she arrived she was up to 1350gms, and refusing food. Then she started doing a pre-ovulation soak, and wagging her tail, so I put a het ghost male in with her... Her pre-lay shed was one month ago today. So, any minute now. Her eggs look like they are going to pack up their yolks and leave if she doesn't kick them out.

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## Repsrul

What if someone had a freak of nature? A dwarf Ball Python or two that will never reach those weights? Lets say that she will still produce follicles. How would this be handled? Never try to breed because the health risk? What if it was in the wild?


It is good we all have guide lines that we follow to insure the health of our animals.

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## Clear

The problem I see with listening to breeders who do this for an income is. The sooner you get babies on the market they more competition they have which drives down prices. Why would a breeder who knows that you can breed at 1200g say so and not tell you to wait till at least 1500g? Those 300g can make you wait a few extra months! (Not saying you can breed at 1200g, i am just using those weights as a reference. Also this is not targeted to Adams post, just an over sight of pages I have seen where breeders have recommended weights.)

Adam, thanks for sharing your experience with us. Do you think that genetics played a difference at all?

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## J.Vandegrift

> An update from this breedings season. I did not do to well and only four girls produce for me.  The girls weight in grams and year born were: 1200 and '07, 1600 and '06, 2500 and '05, and 2500 and '05. The two 2500 gram girls were second year producers. The 1200 gram girl laid four perfect eggs. One of the 2500 gram girls laid eight perfect eggs. The 1600 gram girl laid six eggs, but become egg-bound on the last egg. The other 2500 gram girl laid five eggs, but became egg-bound on the last three eggs. Luckily I was able to get the eggs out of the two females, and they are doing fine now. I have no idea why the two females became egg-bound, but I do not think that it has anything to do with weight or age. They were able to get the other eggs out fine, and one of the girls was 2500 grams, which is way over the suggested breeding weight.


How long did you give the females to get the eggs out on their own?

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## WingedWolfPsion

Pretty dark view of reality to think all the breeders are recommending folks wait until females are larger just because they want to breed all the small ones themselves, sooner.  It couldn't have anything to do with breeding smaller females being detrimental to their production in the long term.  Nope.  Has to be because they're money-grubbing.

Seriously?

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## Wh00h0069

> How long did you give the females to get the eggs out on their own?


I'm sorry, I just saw this post. I waited about two months each. I did not realize that they were egg-bound until they were constipated. They were both eating well. This could have been prevented by feeling them to make sure that all of the eggs were out, which I will do from now on.

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## Kuba

Why take a risk anyway, i would rather KNOW that she's ready rather than hope

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## Big Gunns

> Aint it a shame most of the guys that have the experience to edumacate us on the odds of breeding young females and the rate of fatal or injurious mishaps is severely lacking in online forums?


That was then...this is now. As long as Big Gunns is here, BP.net will never have a problem again. :Good Job: 

Big Gunns is expecting to be paid soon though. :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:

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## dr del

Get in line like the rest of us.  :Razz:   :Very Happy:

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## BPHERP

In the wild, they will lock and produce clutches when ready, so trying them at marginally reasonable sizes is not a bad thing; if they are ready, they will, if not, then they wont.

BrandonsBalls

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## WingedWolfPsion

This is not the wild.  

We want our girls to be as healthy as possible, and most of us want them to produce large, healthy clutches each year.
In the wild, a female will breed as soon as she is physically able to do so--this may not be ideal for her body, and it will probably result in a tiny clutch.  She will run into a male sooner in areas where ball pythons are very common--that means competition.  By having a smaller clutch, her offspring may not compete with each other as much over available resources--obviously the area supports many ball pythons well, so they also may not have as much outside pressure from predation.

It's a winning strategy, in the wild.  If a female is much larger and older when she encounters a male, she'll lay a big clutch, because ball pythons are rare in that area, and there may be less competition for food, but more predators around.

Or perhaps not.  But because it makes sense, and roughly matches the experiences of breeders, I'll be waiting until my girls are larger to breed them for the first time.  I'd rather have 10 eggs per year for 20 years after waiting an extra year or so than have 4 eggs per year for 20 years, but get them started one year earlier.

What you prefer is, of course, up to you, and your mileage may vary.  I'm sure that genetics and development play some role in clutch size as well.  But it's only logical that environment is an influence.

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## lance

I think its too risky to breed a female that is less then 1200 grams, its better to wait and get a healthy clutch and to protect your female

lance

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## Bruceweb

Just an assumption on my part but if a female is tail lifting when she comes in contact with a male I'm assuming that she is wanting to breed..come to the conclusion that many more breeders breed at slightly smaller sizes than the recognized 1500g with decent results, many simply dont advertise the fact on forums..spoke to a few that have given honest information, seems much more of a common practice than popular opinion leads you to believe

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## WingedWolfPsion

I'm sure people do things behind closed doors that they don't want to admit to in public.  I'm also sure that there's a reason they haven't come barreling out to announce that there's nothing wrong with doing this, and it never causes any problems.

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## DJ_Bizarre

I have yet to ever breed but I am going to say 1500g from what I read is a safe bet.  I mean if you are the type of person to push it then fine but just know that you may be risking your pet's life.  I wouldnt do anything under 1200 because that just seem waaaaaay to low.

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## ClarkT

How do you go about getting the egg(s) out of one that has become egg bound?

Also, on the OP subject, I have a 5 yr. old reduced pattern normal. I got her about 6 weeks ago. She had been fed every 2-6 months, because they thought she was a picky eater. The fact is, though, her conditions were never quite right. (she was kept in a glass tank  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  -- lol) Her conditions are spot on now. She's in a glass enclosure, but I'm setting up a 41 qt. tub so she can be more comfortable.

Anyway, I've gotten her to eat a small rat every 2 weeks, and I'm hoping she'll increase to every week, soon. She's only 2-1/2' long. I'll be weighing her today. She's very small. She looks about the size of most of the 6-12 mo. old snakes I've seen on various sites. 

With her being 5 years old, what's the opinions here if I tried breeding at 1200 grams?

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## TessadasExotics

Don't know the answer to the egg bound question.

I would wait untill she hit 2-3k myself. Why rush her? With her age, if she waited till she was 3k, she would probably put out 10+ eggs

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## sho220

All three of my females are '08 babies and I bred all three this year. Only two produced clutches. One was four eggs, the other five eggs. The two that produced were around 1400-1500 grams. The one that didn't was about 2000 grams. I have about 10 days until the second clutch hatches. It will be interesting to see if their future clutches are the same size (in quantity, not egg weight). I don't think the females size or age affect the weight of the eggs all that much. I think if they were on a good feeding schedule and have a good body weight the eggs will be healthy and average size/weight.

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## boasandballs

Its better safe than sorry to wait.  Besides most will take the next year.  I have done it both ways and the way I see it is.

young female 4 eggs
next year 0
next year 6

older female
second year 6-8
next year 8-9 

Now in the 3 years the younger female had 10 and the older had as many as 16

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## WingedWolfPsion

My 1500 gram girls tend to lay 5 or 6 eggs their first year.  The only undersized female clutch I have seen (not one of mine) was 4 very undersized eggs.  One died, 2 are still limping along, 1 seems ok.  (I bought the girl and I'm incubating her clutch for the prev owner).

Once the girls are between 1600 and 2000 grams, I get 6 to 8 eggs from them.  Over 2000 to 3000, I get 8 to 12 eggs.  Over 3000, sometimes I get even more (my largest clutch to date was 13 eggs from a 3600 gram female).

The faster I can get a girl to grow, the more eggs I get.  Breeding a girl under 1500 grams is not worth it, because she is unlikely to both regain her weight AND grow significantly over the course of the year, so you lose out.  I like to get my females stabilized before the breeding season starts--fattened up to a proper good weight, and then slow the feeding a bit.  We know how 800 to 1400 gram girls like to go off feed over the winter--I let them rest, I don't breed them.  Spring comes, and they take off eating like crazy, and then I get big healthy clutches from them the next season.

It's worked for me--this year I have had only 3 slugs, ALL of the females I expected to lay did lay, and I have not lost a single egg in incubation so far.  (I also did not cool for more than 5 degrees or longer than 1 week last fall).

It has been a very wet and stormy spring and summer here so far, and this may be contributing to the high fertility and breeding rate.

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## j_h_smith

I think it will also depend on the breeder's morph we're talking about.  Some new, untested morph will probably be bred closer to 1000-1200 grams than a run of the mill morph.  Waiting another year to get more breeding stock could cost the breeder thousands of dollars.  Like someone else said a few pages back, you need to know your snakes.  


Jim Smith

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## koloo921

> Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.
> 
> According to my records ...
> 
> 1. When I breed females in their 3rd winter at 1350 grams and up, my success rate is generally between 85% and 90% (ie. about nine out of every ten girls that are bred will lay a viable clutch)
> 
> 2. When I breed females in their 2nd winter regardless of their weight, my success rate is 10% (ie. about one in ten that I attempt will lay a viable clutch of eggs).
> 
> 3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.
> ...


I am pretty new to ball pythons. I would not breed a young female under 1000 grams, but you hit the nail on the head with this discussion! All the advice that I have read in the forums or learned from breeders is different. Weather it be breeding or general care. It seems that everyone does things their own way with ball pythons. I like that. Their really is not a right or wrong. Its what works and what does not work.

Back to the topic. A female that is under 1000 grams is going to be raped in the wild weather she is ready or not. She is going to go or she is not. If she gets egg bond she won't produce a future generation. It's evolution at it's best. Only the strong will survive. Not saying everyone should breed a underweight female just wanted to give you something to think about.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Actually, not so much so.  Male ball pythons aren't interested in females that aren't putting out the right pheromone signatures.  They won't even bother to court them in most cases.

Ball python males cannot hook up with an uncooperative female.  So, females breed in the wild when their bodies feel they are ready to, and not before.

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_Wh00h0069_ (06-30-2010)

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## fishboyUK

> Actually, not so much so.  Male ball pythons aren't interested in females that aren't putting out the right pheromone signatures.  They won't even bother to court them in most cases.
> 
> Ball python males cannot hook up with an uncooperative female.  So, females breed in the wild when their bodies feel they are ready to, and not before.


So a smaller female is unlikely to be accepting to a male and become gravid, unless she is ready and putting out the right pheremone signals. Unless your male is particularly rapey, like my enchi  :ROFL:

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## Bruceweb

I bred 4 females at 1300g..to date the only one that is gravid is my pied..she is sitting at 1700g, nothing appears to have happened with the others..would I try again at this size..probably not as all the females stopped feeding & It was causing me concern..tbh was really glad nothing came of it..delighted with the pied mind you, I had given up on her but she was niggling away at me as she was getting larger..she has now ovulated..fingers crossed for healthy eggs.

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## KingPythons

this thread lasted long! geeeezzz well anyways just thought id let you guys know im breeding my 1200 gram girl to my YB. Close to 2nd winter but she just has been acting funny so I threw the male in there and they been at it ever since. Needless to say she started eating again dont know if thats a good thing since she had a funny eating pattern after her first winter. Keep you updated

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## shakyhand

I kind of agree that larger snakes yield bigger clutch of eggs.  I was on my first season breeding ball too.  Got 2 pastels female and both are virgins but over 2 years old.  

The 1800g gave me 9 eggs with great odd... 3 superpastels, 5 pastels and 1 normal...

The 1300g gave me only 4 eggs (large eggs)..  2 bumblebee and 2 pastels...   :Dancin' Banana:

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## Wildman09

I think 1200 is the MINIMUM, but I'm more towards 1400+, I currently have 2 pairs going, one of which have already locked up. The female is over 1600 grams, she is Proven and laid I believe 6 eggs last season. I'm only expecting 6-8, maybe less. I have one female Over 2400grams, thats a VIRGIN!!!...I'm hoping to get a Nice big pile of Pearly Whites from her. My other females are right around or the 1500 gram mark...Like most have said here, the bigger the female, the greater the amount of eggs can be produced. 

So, yeah..Right now all of my females are over the 1500g mark...I rather have a bigger clutch, keep the mother Healthy, and not risk anything bad to happen to her or the clutch...


Good Luck with what ever you do. And, Good Luck this season!!!!

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## j_h_smith

I was at the MARS Expo this month and I couldn't believe the number of FEMALE ball Pythons that were being sold as PROVEN BREEDERS and they were in the 800-1000 gram range.  I just walked away chuckling when I would see one.

But I do agree with the 1200 gram minimum.

Jim Smith

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## Wildman09

^^That MIGHT be true as far as Proven breeders, they might have Just laid a few weeks prior...They will lose quite a bit of weight, but I'd ask for paper work or weights before being gravid, just as a precaution...But that also means they were probably bred at a small weight...

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## jplehmann

I know Adam's probably not around to answer this, but someone else can perhaps clarify #3 and #4 of this much read testimony:




> Here's my experience with breeding younger/smaller females over the last 10+ years ... I've given this spiel a few times before, so it might be redundant for a lot of you guys.
> 
> 3. Just about every single one of my girls lay a number of eggs equivalent to the 1/3 of their body weight divided by 100 rule ... ie a 1500 gram female will lay 5 eggs, a 1000 gram female will lay 3 - 4 eggs ... give or take.
> 
> 4. Females bred at under 1500 grams or younger than their third winter will have smaller clutches and generally never produce more than 4 - 6 viable eggs a clutch no matter how large they grow later in life ... for example, in 1998 I bred a 1200 gram female het albino in her second winter ... she laid 4 eggs and produced 1 albino ... she's now over 3500 grams and still only lays about 6 viable eggs a year while other 3500 gram girls that I have that were bred for the first time at 1500 grams and over lay 10 and even 12 egg clutches for me.
> 
> Have I seen any negative impacts to the health of a female ball python by breeding her young or attempting to breed her young? ... Absolutely not ...
> 
> -adam


#3 suggests that as females grow larger they tend to produce larger clutch sizes. I've heard that from others too.

#4 however, if I am interpreting it correctly, says that in Adam's experience, not only do females bred early produce smaller clutches that year, but they also tend to produce smaller clutches throughout their lifetime ("no matter how large they grow later in life").  This sounds like causation, ie, as if it stunts their capability .  He's either saying that, OR, he's saying that of the small females given the chance to breed, the ones who do breed tend to always produce small clutches -- AKA correlation.  And if causation, it would seem that breeding them young is in some way impacting one aspect of their health.

Can someone interpret?

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## Albert Clark

> Yes it is.


Hey listen, no one person knows everything but we all know something. Especially as it pertains to bps. We all can use help and information for ourselves and for those who are too afraid to ask.    Peace.       :Taz:   :Good Job:

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## ARBallMorphs

hey,

since this thread was brought up again i thought lets post my question in here.

I have a 2014 Lesser Pastel female that at the moment weighs +/-1200 empty and she never skipped a meal (only when she was in shed cause i don't offer food when they are in shed) and if she keeps eating she is gonna be 1500 grams easy at the end of this year but it is gonna be only her 2nd winter.

now i have to admit i didn't read everything in this thread but i have read a lot about that a female should be 1500 grams or more but also read about it being their 3rd winter before introducing males.

so now my question what would you do if it is only the 2nd winter but the female is 1500+ grams? would you try it and see if she goes or wait another year?

I do like to think i know my snakes and i think it would be save with her to try it but i do have no experience with breeding that is why i wanted to ask the people out here.

thanks,

Andrew

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## CD CONSTRICTORS

Its a 50/50 shot. All my two year old females proved that out for me last season. Half of them went and half didn't.

Just be sure if you pair her, that the fact she absorbs follicles and has retained sperm does not ruin plans for her next season when you might have a higher powered male for her.

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## bcr229

I would wait, it's not like either lesser or pastel are hard to find genes at the moment, unless you have an insanely good male for her now.

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## ARBallMorphs

> Its a 50/50 shot. All my two year old females proved that out for me last season. Half of them went and half didn't.
> 
> Just be sure if you pair her, that the fact she absorbs follicles and has retained sperm does not ruin plans for her next season when you might have a higher powered male for her.


Hey, no it wont ruin my plans as she will be paired to my clown and if she doesn't produce i will breed the clown to her again the season after  :Smile:

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## ARBallMorphs

> I would wait, it's not like either lesser or pastel are hard to find genes at the moment, unless you have an insanely good male for her now.


She will be paired with my clown male to hopefully get atleast 1 Lesser Pastel female het. Clown.

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