# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics >  Has desert female breeding got anywhere?

## AlbertaBP

Just wondering if any progress has been made on figuring out the desert female breeding problem?

 anyone getting close?

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## aalomon

Im sure if anyone successfully breeds a female there will be huge threads on almost every bp site on the web discussing it.

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## Solarsoldier001

There's a problem with the desert females?

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## dart

> There's a problem with the desert females?


I actually  :sploosh:

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## rebelrachel13

> Im sure if anyone successfully breeds a female there will be huge threads on almost every bp site on the web discussing it.


I agree.... I hope it happens soon though!!

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## h00blah

> There's a problem with the desert females?


For some reason, nobody has come forward saying that they've successfully bred deserts. All that we know is that they haven't bred. With the amount of time deserts have been out, everyone is assuming that desert females are just infertile. Male deserts seem to get the job done just fine though  :Good Job: .

That's it in a nutshell... If you want to know more, just do a search.

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_moonlightgdess_ (05-16-2012)

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## Lair of Dragons

I would be willing to bet someone has done it....just not going to publish it yet...there are too many breeders in th U.S. that have them in their collection, but not every breeder will share info on the internet.....as soon as some shows a pic of them on eggs you will see them pop up from every direction...
A lot of your "OLD SCHOOL" breeders still do a lot in secret and not willing to share because of what it does to the market price. There has never ever been a female anything that cant reproduce so is the "Desert female" one of the wonders of the world....nope...just needs to be treated a little different than the normal Ball Python.
I just picked up a 650g female yestrday and looking for more at the right price because I know proof is coming soon and the information needed to have them reproduce.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## h00blah

> I would be willing to bet someone has done it....just not going to publish it yet...there are too many breeders in th U.S. that have them in their collection, but not every breeder will share info on the internet.....as soon as some shows a pic of them on eggs you will see them pop up from every direction...
> A lot of your "OLD SCHOOL" breeders still do a lot in secret and not willing to share because of what it does to the market price. There has never ever been a female anything that cant reproduce so is the "Desert female" one of the wonders of the world....nope...just needs to be treated a little different than the normal Ball Python.
> I just picked up a 650g female yestrday and looking for more at the right price because I know proof is coming soon and the information needed to have them reproduce.
> Travis
> Lair of Dragons


What about the banana females only producing females, and rarely producing males? It's not impossible for an animal to be infertile. Sounds like a mutation. Spiders wobbling is a genetic trait that's passed down. Infertility could be the same thing. Who knows? I hope your desert female reproduces for you. They're awesome snakes, and their combos are sweet!

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## Lair of Dragons

Bob Clark though the same thing with his Leusistic Burmese and she never did reproduce...he chalked it up to the Morph must make it infertile....yet now they produce them....
Same thing was said about Caramel BPs...like I stated to many large breeders are working with them and soon info will be posted on the secret to breeding them. I would be willing to say its a temp thing. 
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## Driver

There has been a person that has came forward and said that they were able to successfully breed a female desert. He just doesn't have any pictures.  And he is doing something different than most as well. He only uses ambient temps. I wanna say in the low 80s. There is talk about it on the BLBC.

Also I disagree that they wouldn't come forward.  If people successfully breed a desert it would be smart of them to come forward.  That way the price of the females would jump back up, and people would stop considering it a useless morph. Unless they want to buy more females while the prices are still low.

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## h00blah

> Bob Clark though the same thing with his Leusistic Burmese and she never did reproduce...he chalked it up to the Morph must make it infertile....yet now they produce them....
> Same thing was said about Caramel BPs...like I stated to many large breeders are working with them and soon info will be posted on the secret to breeding them. I would be willing to say its a temp thing. 
> Travis
> Lair of Dragons


 
The notoriety around caramels wasn't about their infertility. Rather that they lay a lot of slugs and for some reason, they sometimes hatch with kinks.

Remember, we're dealing with speculation. Nobody is right or wrong. I agree with Driver. It would be unwise to keep it a secret. There's already many desert designer morphs.... Proving that females can breed would just make the price go back up, and hopefully we can see more combos... 

Also... If they require some special temps to get them to breed, then that's an anomaly of its own! That would make it what you call a "wonder of the world" lol.

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## Lair of Dragons

Exactly...buy while low....produce multiple clutches....release the info....make a heafty return on investment....not everyone does this as a hobbly like you and I...there is a huge business aspect to it....I will agree with you on the temp thing...heat can and will produce slugs....if you doubt me...keep Hognose at same temps as Ball Pythons and see how many fertile eggs you get...I did it this year with a female on her first clutch....got 12 eggs and only two fertile....I put her back into a colubrid enviroment as soon as she laid the first clutch and got 18 eggs second clutch 2 where infertile....
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## Royal Hijinx

At this point, I find that speculating that a Desert female can be fertile without PROOF is merely a desperate plea to keep prices up on what for many may be, or have been, a bad investment.  I am sure that some folks have made some money off the gene, but prices are now rapidly and appropriately falling.  Rumors will only serve to artificially keep prices afloat.

I hope someone does figure out something that is not more trouble than it is worth, but currently there is ZERO proof of a fertile Desert female.

I would pay a couple of hundred for a female as a interesting pet, and that is about it.

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_bad-one_ (04-28-2012),_C&H Exotic Morphs_ (04-27-2012),rabernet (04-27-2012),_Slim_ (04-27-2012),_zeion97_ (04-28-2012)

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## Valentine Pirate

> I would pay a couple of hundred for a female as a interesting pet, and that is about it.


Same here, just not interested in all the drama at this point. There's no proof either way, until there is I'll wait till the prices drop. I really like how they look! Just not worth the price for the trouble and speculation

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_Slim_ (04-27-2012)

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## oskyle1567

Deserts make some incredible morphs! Some of the best combinations i have ever seen its sad that it has come down to this. But they would make an incredible pet i would love to get my hands on a desert pin even better a desert blast.

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## Slim

> A lot of your "OLD SCHOOL" breeders still do a lot in secret and not willing to share because of what it does to the market price.


And a few of those OLD SCHOOL guys you are referring to, are bailing out of this project, at least on the female side, and are redoubling their efforts to produce multi-gene morphs with the males.  That should tell you something...






> I would be willing to bet someone has done it....just not going to publish it yet...





> ...buy while low....produce multiple clutches....release the info....make a heafty return on investment....


This logic only floats if you are the only breeder to successfully get female Deserts to produce.  Otherwise, you run the risk of the train leaving the station when someone else does it and beats you to the announcement.  At that point, you aren't the first, even if you really were.  

No, if you hit on fertile Desert females, you are going to put that word on the street.  Especially in light of all the speculation and anticipation.






> There has been a person that has came forward and said that they were able to successfully breed a female desert. He just doesn't have any pictures.


I have a Unicorn on a secret horse farm down in Ocala, FL....I just don't have any pictures.





> At this point, I find that speculating that a Desert female can be fertile without PROOF is merely a desperate plea to keep prices up on what for many may be, or have been, a bad investment....I would pay a couple of hundred for a female as a interesting pet, and that is about it.


 :Number1:  This!!!  

Don't get me wrong, I _want_ the Desert females to produce, because a Desert Pin male is way at the top of my wish list.  As long as only Desert males are viable, that animal will remain out of my reach from a financial stand point.

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_zeion97_ (04-28-2012)

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## Lair of Dragons

Slim,
So tell me this...has there ever been a female reptile that is proven to be infertile...if so I have never heard of it. Maybe I missed it......
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## rabernet

> I would be willing to bet someone has done it....just not going to publish it yet...there are too many breeders in th U.S. that have them in their collection, but not every breeder will share info on the internet.....as soon as some shows a pic of them on eggs you will see them pop up from every direction...
> A lot of your "OLD SCHOOL" breeders still do a lot in secret and not willing to share because of what it does to the market price. There has never ever been a female anything that cant reproduce so is the "Desert female" one of the wonders of the world....nope...just needs to be treated a little different than the normal Ball Python.
> I just picked up a 650g female yestrday and looking for more at the right price because I know proof is coming soon and the information needed to have them reproduce.
> Travis
> Lair of Dragons


And I know a lot of breeders, big ones as well, dumping their desert females. 

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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## Jabberwocky Dragons

> Slim,
> So tell me this...has there ever been a female reptile that is proven to be infertile...if so I have never heard of it. Maybe I missed it......
> Travis
> Lair of Dragons


I'm not really sure what to make of your question.  There are many individual females of every animal species on this planet that are infertile.  Unless there's environmental factors involved, infertility is often caused by a mutation.  Most environmental factors that cause infertility due so by way of mutation too but that's irrelevant to Deserts.

The desert morph is also caused by a mutation.  It is not inconceivable to suggest that color and infertility are linked by the same mutation.  This would result in infertile female Deserts.  Several examples of similar mutation linkage were given above.

The question isn't whether infertile female animals exist  :Confused:  but whether the reproduction difficulties are husbandry based or are an innate infertility caused by mutation.  One is surmountable, one is not, either is possible.

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_Don_ (05-16-2012),_Slim_ (04-27-2012)

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## h00blah

> I'm not really sure what to make of your question.  There are many individual females of every animal species on this planet that are infertile.  Unless there's environmental factors involved, infertility is often caused by a mutation.  Most environmental factors that cause infertility due so by way of mutation too but that's irrelevant to Deserts.
> 
> The desert morph is also caused by a mutation.  It is not inconceivable to suggest that color and infertility are linked by the same mutation.  This would result in infertile female Deserts.  Several examples of similar mutation linkage were given above.
> 
> The question isn't whether infertile female animals exist  but whether the reproduction difficulties are husbandry based or are an innate infertility caused by mutation.  One is surmountable, one is not, either is possible.


All of this.... There are stranger things in nature than the infertility of a specific gender in rare occasions lol...

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## Simple Man

If nothing else good comes from the Desert debacle, at least it made the choice to get into the Desert Ghost recessive that much easier  :Good Job:  I love recessives anyway for hobby and business reasons. More fun to work into projects and see results and the prices stay a lot more stable.

Regards,

B

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_AGoldReptiles_ (04-27-2012),snakesRkewl (04-27-2012)

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## Lair of Dragons

I watch ads in Kingsnake and Fauna....I do not see very many ads at all of anyone dumping off Desert Females....I see babies listed and a lot of males and male morphs but no females. So...let me know who these breeders are that are "dumping" them off and maybe I can pick another female or two....I would apreciate it.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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_wwmjkd_ (05-16-2012)

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## RandyRemington

I wish I knew how close the caramel females are to infertile.  I've got a chance to produce my first caramel this year.  If I hatch a female that is very very unlikely to produce any good eggs I'll probably quietly look for someone to give her to as a pet rather than advertise her at a super low price ticking off other breeders who might think they should be more.  Maybe the lack of for sale desert females is due to a similar reluctance to advertise them at what they might be valued at now.

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_Slim_ (04-27-2012)

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## Royal Hijinx

> I wish I knew how close the caramel females are to infertile.  I've got a chance to produce my first caramel this year.  If I hatch a female that is very very unlikely to produce any good eggs I'll probably quietly look for someone to give her to as a pet rather than advertise her at a super low price ticking off other breeders who might think they should be more.  *Maybe the lack of for sale desert females is due to a similar reluctance to advertise them at what they might be valued at now*.


I think this is in play.  Also, not everyone buys off of KS and Fauna, so I am sure there are off the cuff deals to be had for the females.

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masonhall (04-29-2012)

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## Slim

> Slim,
> So tell me this...has there ever been a female reptile that is proven to be infertile...if so I have never heard of it. Maybe I missed it......


Well, Travis, so far, Desert female ball pythons are doing an outstanding job of being just what you've described here.

I also have a hunch that the list of things you have never heard of or missed is long and distinguished.





> I watch ads in Kingsnake and Fauna....I do not see very many ads at all of anyone dumping off Desert Females....


Do you think that when big breeders bail out of a project that they sell those animals on KS and Fauna????  Dude...Really?

Good luck with your plan to corner the market on Desert females  :Good Job:

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_Jonas@Balls2TheWall_ (04-27-2012)

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## Jonas@Balls2TheWall

I know a guy who knows a guy who supposedly has a desert female due to lay very soon.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

We shall see.....

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## ZBP

I think Travis has a point to an extent. Yes Desert females have not yet been able to have a fertile clutch, but who is to say that this will remain true. Special conditions could be the only thing needed. I do not think there has been a whole species or type of animal that has been infertile in its entirety but the Desert Ball python could prove to be one of these animals. I do not plan on getting into them because of there infertility problem but I just feel like it may still be possible to get a fertile clutch, but it is also just as possible that they never have a fertile clutch. Who knows we will just have to wait and see.

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## Slim

> Who knows we will just have to wait and see.


It's not like a _couple_ of guys somewhere are _dinking_ around with this project. * A LOT* of breeders have been working this project for quite some time with no positive results.

At a certain point you have to start accepting the reality of the situation, sad as it may be.

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## Lair of Dragons

Not trying to corner the market...never said I was going to be first and never planned to do so....just want to be on the ground floor when someone else figures it out....it will be solved...if not already....I would just like the heads up if anyone hears of any breeders dumping Desert females in the 400 to 900 gram range....not interested in babies or adults because I want a year or two to set them up right.
I just have a very very hard time accepting that because a female has a morph gene it makes her infertile...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## Slim

Travis, as I stated earlier in this thread, I _want_ you to make this work.  I _want_ you to be the first guy to do it, make your money, and then show the world how it's done.

Problem is, I'm a realist and the one thing I haven't seen are any real results.

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## dr del

Hi,




> Not trying to corner the market...never said I was going to be first and never planned to do so....just want to be on the ground floor when someone else figures it out....it will be solved...if not already....I would just like the heads up if anyone hears of any breeders dumping Desert females in the 400 to 900 gram range....not interested in babies or adults because I want a year or two to set them up right.
> I just have a very very hard time accepting that because a female has a morph gene it makes her infertile...
> Travis
> Lair of Dragons


Just thought I'd point out there are several morph genes already known can can result in the animal *dying* - infertile is far from impossible.

Find MAballs videos on youtube with NERD where they discuss lethal combos - it's a two parter.


dr del

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MarkS (04-28-2012),_Slim_ (04-27-2012)

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## Lair of Dragons

Slim,
Dont have any plans to be the first but I do plan on having them when it is published...aint worried about making the money...make that at work...and I dont need to pound my chest to the world...been in reptiles for over 25 years and the only thing I have ever done that hasnt been done before is produce Hypo Translucent x Hypo Translucent Dragons that everyone told me it cant be done..the babies die....well they dont...that info is not posted on my site....never talked about it till now....anything is possible...
I know of some very large players in the BP market that are searching for Desert Females as well...just following their leads....and absorbing the info they are willing to pass to me.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## Slim

Do your thing, Brother!

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## Lair of Dragons

> Just thought I'd point out there are several morph genes already known can can result in the animal dying - infertile is far from impossible.


Yes there are lethal genes...seen both videos....dont cross those genes because of the results he posted....but those are cross morphs....not single gene morphs producing lethal genes....they produces fertile eggs but died after birth...not one that they discuss is infertile...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## RandyRemington

Say a morph doesn't produce some hormone that in necessary both to make the ball a normal color and for a critical stage in female reproduction.  Maybe you could work around it with weekly shots.

Pearl is a lethal non combo, spider might also be homozygous lethal.  For all I know caramel females might be 90+% infertile.

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## RobNJ

> just want to be on the ground floor when someone else figures it out


 :Confused:  Aren't there a ton of Desert combos...I'd say the project is half way to the top floor.





> I just have a very very hard time accepting that because a female has a morph gene it makes her infertile...
> Travis
> Lair of Dragons


Caramels have issues, spiders/womas have issues all in their singular forms...not too far fetched that it's very possible with Deserts. I would have a harder time accepting that Deserts are the only morph that should be bigger/older to breed, or that they would require a lower temp than the 90 degree hot spot every other morph seems to lay eggs on perfectly.

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_C&H Exotic Morphs_ (04-28-2012)

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## Lair of Dragons

Yes there are a ton of Desert combos...but most are scared to buy because what are you going to do with those females....?...and what I mean when I say "ground floor" is when the market takes off, I want to have the Desert females ready to go. You watch what happens to the price of Deserts as soon as its posted "they do produce...and heres how you have to do it"

Hmmm....90 Degree hot spot....yea I think that will soon be a temp of the past...I dont run a single tub hot spot at that temp and havent had any problems getting eggs....and I know a lot of other BP breeders that do the same. 
Considering that the aveage temp in Ghana is in the mid to high 80's year round and they spend most of the hot daytime hours underground...then why does everyone hit 90s as a hotspot...and the lows average high 70s year round.    
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## dr del

Hi,




> Yes there are a ton of Desert combos...but most are scared to buy because what are you going to do with those females....?...and what I mean when I say "ground floor" is when the market takes off, I want to have the Desert females ready to go. You watch what happens to the price of Deserts as soon as its posted "they do produce...and heres how you have to do it"
> 
> Hmmm....90 Degree hot spot....yea I think that will soon be a temp of the past...I dont run a single tub hot spot at that temp and havent had any problems getting eggs....and I know a lot of other BP breeders that do the same. 
> Considering that the aveage temp in Ghana is in the mid to high 80's year round and they spend most of the hot daytime hours underground...then why does everyone hit 90s as a hotspot...and the lows average high 70s year round.    
> Travis
> Lair of Dragons


Yes people use different temps to keep their BP's - VPI being one of the main ones I can recall. 

But people have suggested the same fixes for every single genetic problem for years upon years, Higher/lower temps, higher/lower humidity bigger females/ grown slower.

They have never, ever even helped with any of the problems and, frankly, are only suggested because those are the only things *we* can change - not because they make a great deal of sense as a solution to the problems.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm 

Is worth a read for one persons experiences with deserts and temps.

I'd quite like to see what happens if someone crosses deserts into the sub saharan giants in terms of their growth rate etc. But I can't afford deserts at the moment in terms of gambling. You plainly feel you can so good luck with it and keep us posted.


dr del

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## Alex.B

> I just have a very very hard time accepting that because a female has a morph gene it makes her infertile...


then you may want to do some more research on genetics.

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## Royal Hijinx

Not all morphs are beneficial.  Some of them cause the long term extinction of that animal type.  Not saying the Desert morph would wipe out Bps in the wild, but chances are the Desert gene would not last long (in the scheme of things) in the wild.

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_Slim_ (04-28-2012)

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## JLC

Seems to me like a classic argument of the Optimist vs the Pessimist, with the Realist stuck somewhere in the middle.  :Razz: 

I think it doesn't make the Optimists look good to see illogical arguments used to try and sway folks to their way of thinking.  Genetics certainly CAN play into fertility in any number of ways from hormonal production to physical deformities of the reproductive organs that we might not ever see from the outside.  And it doesn't make much sense to suggest that so many breeders are being successful and keeping it a secret just for profit's sake.  Doesn't make sense at all.  

I don't need those kinds of arguments to still be an optimist.  If I were in a position to do so, I'd be glad to have a female desert in my collection and plans to work with her over the long term to see what might happen.  I'm hopelessly and eternally optimistic about stuff like that.  

All the doomsayer arguments don't matter to me...but on the flipside, I don't feel any compelling need to convince anyone else to have "hope" for desert females.  

Folks, by nature, will believe what they want to believe.  Us optimists still hold out hope, however illogical that may seem to some.  Pessimists have given up altogether and are convinced that no good will come of desert females, however illogical that stance may be as well.  The Realists do a better job of weighing the evidence before them, and I can understand that the evidence, as it is currently being presented, weighs heavily against the girls being viably productive.  

I think a large part of my optimism comes from the fact that I don't believe the evidence, as it is currently argued on typical internet forums, is particularly accurate.  It's exaggerated and full of hyperbole as rumors and "statistics" get passed along as absolute fact, when the truth is no one really knows.  BUT...that's just my personal little inner picture of how all this is playing out.  What others make of it is entirely up to them and doesn't bother me a bit.

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_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-28-2012),_Slim_ (04-28-2012)

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## Royal Hijinx

I agree that most of the arguments get a little blown out, but there have been a few very well written and documented cases that do not look good at all for the optimists in this case.

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## JLC

> I agree that most of the arguments get a little blown out, but there have been a few very well written and documented cases that do not look good at all for the optimists in this case.


Sure...but that's kind of the definition of an optimist, don't you think?  To still have hope when things don't "look good."   :Razz: 

Is the optimist always right?  Nope.  But sometimes we are.  :Wink:

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## meowmeowkazoo

I completely agree with Judy. If I had the cash, I would probably invest in at least one desert female just because I am very optimistic about them. I can think of so many things I would like to try, and just the experience of working with a morph that isn't fully understood yet would be fascinating.

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## Royal Hijinx

> Sure...but that's kind of the definition of an optimist, don't you think?  To still have hope when things don't "look good."  
> 
> Is the optimist always right?  Nope.  But sometimes we are.


I think it is OK to be optimistic, but I think that it has gotten to the point of some folks deliberately trying to keep rumors afloat that they can produce, or that someone has made progress, just to keep the project afloat and prices up.

That is not optimism, it is poor business practice (ethically, not monetarily I guess).

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## Slim

> with the Realist stuck somewhere in the middle.


 :Tip of the Hat:

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## Lair of Dragons

> I think it is OK to be optimistic, but I think that it has gotten to the point of some folks deliberately trying to keep rumors afloat that they can produce, or that someone has made progress, just to keep the project afloat and prices up.
> 
> That is not optimism, it is poor business practice (ethically, not monetarily I guess).


I totally agree with this...thats the whole reason I never owned a Desert or the gene till eairler this week...they may never ever prove to reproduce...which would be a shame...
I am treating the female I got just like a "Dinker" with a wild pattern...and it would be great if someone has the answers they would publish it...
I just have a feeling a breeder out there has done it but wants to re-test their findings to make sure it wasnt a fluke.
Its either me being hopeful or hard headed...been accused of both before.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## RobNJ

Whichever way it goes doesn't concern me, as the Desert isn't on my radar at all. I really do hope, and would love to see some females successfully breed...mostly for the sake of those who've bought them with no clue about possible issues...and I'm sure there are plenty of them. 

And Travis, you may be right...I don't think I would be in such a hurry to come out with it if I had a Desert female lay a viable clutch. The heat that would come along with it alone wouldn't be worth it, IMO...I'd want to work it a little further. 

There very well may be a good clutch that has been laid out there... :Wink: .

Even so, it would take a lot more than a few good clutches to undo the damage.

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## PythonOutlaw

So if i were to buy a male desert and breed him too say a pastel, and I got a pastel desert female. would the double gene female still be unable too breed?

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## Royal Hijinx

> So if i were to buy a male desert and breed him too say a pastel, and I got a pastel desert female. would the double gene female still be unable too breed?


Adding genes does not appear to help.

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_Slim_ (04-29-2012)

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## MarkS

> Hi,
> Just thought I'd point out there are several morph genes already known can can result in the animal *dying* - infertile is far from impossible.
> dr del


Yup, what he said.

I've heard a number of reports of female deserts actually dying while gravid.  Not something I'm really anxious to experience first hand.

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## Emilio

> Adding genes does not appear to help.


This to me is one of the worst indicators of failure in them. Hope I'm wrong, I like some of you will still give it a try eventually.

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## RobNJ

> This to me is one of the worst indicators of failure in them.


Why would that make any difference...and I'm truly curious to your thoughts, not being combative. Spiders still wobble when combined with other mutations. The thought process behind mutations essentially being "fixed" by entirely separate mutations is baffling to me...but then again, I don't claim to be well versed in genetic mutations or how they work.

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## Lair of Dragons

> Why would that make any difference...and I'm truly curious to your thoughts, not being combative. Spiders still wobble when combined with other mutations. The thought process behind mutations essentially being "fixed" by entirely separate mutations is baffling to me...but then again, I don't claim to be well versed in genetic mutations or how they work.


You are correct...you can not fix a morph just because you mix that morph...I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong...
For example...Spider and Sable proven to be fatal...if you were to combine an extreme morph....lets say a Spider Pin Lesser Ghost Pastel to a Sable Mojave Yellow Belly Orange Dream and in that clutch any baby that had the Spider Sable gene in the same baby it would not make it....when those two morphs cross the same path results will be the same no matter how many other morphs are present.
So you can't solve the problem of Desert females throwing infertile eggs just because its crossed into other genes....that gene still plays a roll....
Anyone can correct me if I am wrong...I know I have been wrong before....
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## dr del

Hi,

There have been some odd anomalies reported at NERD - like a living sable spider and a surviving pearl.

I haven't heard anthing more about them though so I don't know what the long term result was.

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MarkS (05-04-2012)

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## Royal Hijinx

> Hi,
> 
> There have been some odd anomalies reported at NERD - like a living sable spider and a surviving pearl.
> 
> I haven't heard anthing more about them though so I don't know what the long term result was.


At least with the Pearl, isn't that thing so neuro that maybe it should not be alive?

----------

_Slim_ (04-29-2012)

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## Dragoon

as soon as the price of female deserts reflects the lack of 'investment' capability I will probably buy one.

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## Royal Hijinx

> as soon as the price of female deserts reflects the lack of 'investment' capability I will probably buy one.


I agree.  I would buy one for $200 or so as a pet.  Maybe a bit more if it has another gene and looks really cool.

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## WingedWolfPsion

I don't think being able to produce an exception means something is ok.  

For example, mules are sterile.  Just because you have an anomalous mule that is not sterile doesn't change the fact that sterility is the norm in mules.  (Yes, this has happened).

If one person has a desert female that isn't sterile, but the rest all are, that doesn't mean desert females aren't sterile, it just means that person has an anomalous animal.

Look at the evidence:  Most of the reports of desert female breeding result in a clutch of slugs, and all TOO often, a female dead of egg binding.  The egg binding would indicate that there is something physically amiss with the animal's reproductive system that has nothing to do with temperature or hormones.  

Caramel females:  Something is obviously wrong with their reproductive system.  They have very low fertility.  They will lay fertile eggs--every once in a blue moon, they may even lay a clutch that's mostly fertile--but the norm is for them to lay a lot of slugs, and maybe just a few fertile eggs along with them.

I don't understand why people are struggling so hard against the inevitable conclusion.  The idea that desert ball pythons become egg bound because they're too warm is relatively mystical thinking--there's no conceivable reason why higher temperatures would cause egg binding, particularly when they cause no other symptoms of overheating in the animal.

I don't see how it could possibly be so, from a physiological perspective.  Physical abnormality of the reproductive system due to mutation makes sense--how does 'keep them cooler and they'll lay good eggs' actually make sense?  Upon what is it based?  What physiological process COULD cause such a thing?

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_Redneck_Crow_ (06-20-2012),_Royal Hijinx_ (04-29-2012),_Slim_ (04-29-2012)

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## OhhWatALoser

> I don't see how it could possibly be so, from a physiological perspective.  Physical abnormality of the reproductive system due to mutation makes sense--how does 'keep them cooler and they'll lay good eggs' actually make sense?  Upon what is it based?  What physiological process COULD cause such a thing?


The keep them cool thing came from the theory they weren't properly thermoregulating the eggs inside of them and cooking them causing the slugs. I haven't herd of egg binding being normal.

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## Royal Hijinx

> The keep them cool thing came from the theory they weren't properly thermoregulating the eggs inside of them and cooking them causing the slugs. I haven't herd of egg binding being normal.


I do not know that it is normal, but seems to be more common as more people are trying to breed females.

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## RobNJ

> as soon as the price of female deserts reflects the lack of 'investment' capability I will probably buy one.


I won't...I already have "pet" snakes.




> I don't see how it could possibly be so, from a physiological perspective.  Physical abnormality of the reproductive system due to mutation makes sense--how does 'keep them cooler and they'll lay good eggs' actually make sense?  Upon what is it based?  What physiological process COULD cause such a thing?


Dr. Del summed it up perfectly in post #38...there's no _real_ reason behind the thinking, only that there's nothing else we can think of that may be the problem. When worries set in, we'll go to all sorts of lengths to figure out problems, no matter how irrational the train of thought may be. I think when you add in the fact that most people working with ball pythons have a very basic understanding of genetics at best, and and have such varying thoughts as to even the most simple of husbandry techniques/practices, then grasping at straws to figure things out beyond our understanding is the next logical step.

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_Royal Hijinx_ (04-30-2012),_Slim_ (04-29-2012)

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## Brandon Osborne

> Bob Clark though the same thing with his Leusistic Burmese and she never did reproduce...he chalked it up to the Morph must make it infertile....yet now they produce them....
> Same thing was said about Caramel BPs...like I stated to many large breeders are working with them and soon info will be posted on the secret to breeding them. I would be willing to say its a temp thing. 
> Travis
> Lair of Dragons


Bob's leucy was later diagnosed with pseudamonas, which at the time was rampant throughout many burm collections in the US.

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## marshall

The Desert is a really interesting topic.  I think there are a number of things keeping the price high based on the information around.  First, the snake makes crazy combos.  If the Desert made ugly or poor combos, we wouldn't even be talking about it anymore.  Second there has been some serious money invested in the Desert.  It is hard to let something go when you have money invested.  Also based on the past not all information is shared on a morph.  So because of the first two people are skeptical that what they hear may or may not be true.  Everyone wants the Desert to produce.




> Adding genes does not appear to help.


I am not so sure about adding genes.  I have produced a number of Desert and Desert combos including a 4 gene combo female.  When I look at the Desert is seem to be a skinny snake.  My Tiger breeder looks like he is heading down hill at any moment.  He sporadically eats but breeds like crazy.  All my 2011 productions eats extremely well.  I feed once a week and they eat each time with only the occasional skip.  But they all still look on the under fed side.  Almost triangular in shape.  They don't seem to have the shape or pack on the weight like a normal ball python.  But the 4 gene combo looks like a normal ball python.  I am not saying she will produce or even lay eggs but just my observations.



I am not holding my breath.  They make great combos and I want to make more.  Just wanted to add my person experience with the Desert.  The female will not be an 18 month breeder.  She will be a 3 year girl for sure.

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JLC (04-30-2012),_oskyle1567_ (05-16-2012),_Pinoy Pythons_ (05-04-2012)

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## h00blah

Great post, Marshall! Hope that quad girl produces for you  :Good Job: !!!

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## RandyRemington

Sorry for the side track but Bob Clark's leucistic burm was a great motivator for me when I first got into serious snake keeping (way back when you sent a self-addressed stamped envelope to get a price list and considered yourself very lucky to get an actual photo along with the list).  Anyway, Brandon, do you think the leucistic burms now are the same thing (i.e. will they look that clean white at that size)?  That one of Bob's never bred, right?  I read once there was another one (maybe Indian python) back in the 50’s.  Who ever thought the US would lead the way in banning …

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## Lair of Dragons

Yes, Bobs Burmese never bred before it died...he tried everything...even artificial simulation...
Randy I hear you...I held that snake...I have a polaroid pic...(yes dating myself)...holding that snake..I still have a laminated autographed pic of the leusistic burm hanging on my incubator that I have held onto for over 20 years..
I use to work for Wes Harris in OKC at his pet store when he had it, him and Bob are still good friends to this day and my first three Burms were bought from Bob...I hand picked them out of the egg...one 100% het female and 1.1 Albinos back when the cost a lot more than today.
Serious motivation back then seeing Bobs facility I just should have stuck with it instead of taking a 15 year break...ohh where I would be now ...lol
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> I wish I knew how close the caramel females are to infertile.  I've got a chance to produce my first caramel this year.  If I hatch a female that is very very unlikely to produce any good eggs I'll probably quietly look for someone to give her to as a pet rather than advertise her at a super low price ticking off other breeders who might think they should be more.  Maybe the lack of for sale desert females is due to a similar reluctance to advertise them at what they might be valued at now.



Randy -- I know it's not all that scientific, but I did a rough tally a year or so ago based on data scrounged from the Internet that suggests a 2:1 slug:egg ratio for caramel females. 

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1572476

It's enough to keep me from wanting to spend $100's on a caramel female, that's for sure, or even from really wanting a female as a cornerstone for a project. However, it wouldn't be enough to keep me from breeding a caramel female if I did encounter a really nice looking one from a good bloodline at a good price (or produce a nice holdback from a caramel x het breeding). 

I haven't found a single viable report of fertile eggs from a desert female, however ... What concerns me even more about the deserts is, as has already been mentioned, the number of reports of desert females dying or requiring surgery secondary to pregnancy. 

I love the deserts, and moreover, there are desert combos out there (enchi desert lesser, etc.) that absolutely blow me away. The prospect of infertile or subfertile females also doesn't really scare me. What _does_ scare me is the idea that the females I produce may potentially die if bred. It's great to place animals in pet homes, but for an animal with the potential for a 40+ year lifespan, it would be easy enough for her to change hands a few times and wind up with an uninformed owner. 

So for me to make an informed decision on starting a desert project, I would want to know not whether or not the females are fertile (to me it looks as though they are _not_, and I would only ever consider buying a male), but whether or not any attempt to breed a desert female is likely to be fatal to her. If it is highly likely to be fatal, then I would feel very uncertain about producing this morph due to the future welfare of my desert females.

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MarkS (05-03-2012),_Slim_ (05-03-2012)

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## Emilio

> Why would that make any difference...and I'm truly curious to your thoughts, not being combative. Spiders still wobble when combined with other mutations. The thought process behind mutations essentially being "fixed" by entirely separate mutations is baffling to me...but then again, I don't claim to be well versed in genetic mutations or how they work.



I was told by a big breeder recently that one of the main problems with the desert gene is them feeding consistently. My thoughts are simple, you mix Spiders into deserts and maybe just maybe you get an animal that feed's and breed's better. In my opinion Spiders are the best feeding and breeding ball pythons hands down, I'm thinking maybe just maybe they can offset some of the desert's weaknesses.

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## dr del

> I was told by a big breeder recently that one of the main problems with the desert gene is them feeding consistently. My thoughts are simple, you mix Spiders into deserts and maybe just maybe you get an animal that feed's and breed's better. In my opinion Spiders are the best feeding and breeding ball pythons hands down, I'm thinking maybe just maybe they can offset some of the desert's weaknesses.


I wondered the same thing about the sub-saharan giants.  :Wink:

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## Emilio

> I wondered the same thing about the sub-saharan giants.


I'm in full agreement with you on this idea also. :Good Job:

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## Dragoon

Last year pro exotics posted their theory of lower temps during ovulation hopefully someone is testing that theory since they can't.  i guess bush league breeders will start up the yearly debate again and we can find out this years results from the larger breeders

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## Lair of Dragons

Well its time for me to eat crow...anyone have any salt...
He did the cooler temp idea with an 08 female over 2000g and got the same results as everyone else....all slugs
I feel for his loss and for the Reptile Community as a whole. For all you that said lower temps wont help and I argued with you I apologize. You were right and I was wrong. 
John my sympathy goes out to you.
I read the post on the BLBC. 
Travis
Lair of Dragons :Tears:

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## Slim

Despite my naysaying attitude on this subject, I am sorry it didn't work out.  Deserts are such beautiful BPs, and only being able to get combos from the males is unfortunate  :Sad:

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Lair of Dragons (05-16-2012)

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## 1nstinct

Sorry travis, i was hoping someone would be able to crack the desert problem :Mad: . There are so many amazing combos with the desert.
I hope someone can get some eggs from them :Confused: 
Tom

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## Ga_herps

I think the resolution to the problem is just going to have to be breeding male deserts to make your combos, and the female offspring will be amazing show pieces in there own right. Its not the best solution but it keeps the morph going. The combos are endless just will take someone a little more patience to get it right since the desert gene can only be carried in the male. The light at the end of the tunnel is still there just not what everyone wanted it to be.

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Lair of Dragons (05-16-2012)

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## sho220

> I think the resolution to the problem is just going to have to be breeding male deserts to make your combos, and the female offspring will be amazing show pieces in there own right. Its not the best solution but it keeps the morph going. The combos are endless just will take someone a little more patience to get it right since the desert gene can only be carried in the male. The light at the end of the tunnel is still there just not what everyone wanted it to be.


Kind of the reptile equivalent of the paper weight...purty but kinda useless... :Very Happy:

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_Shadera_ (05-16-2012)

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## JLC

> Kind of the reptile equivalent of the paper weight...purty but kinda useless...


Really?  Does a ball python HAVE to breed and reproduce in order to have value?  Or does every loved pet ball python (including my own, as I am no breeder) have no more value than a paper weight?  

Interesting...

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_Annarose15_ (05-16-2012),rabernet (05-16-2012),_Slim_ (05-16-2012)

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## alittleFREE

So will we see the price of desert females drop dramatically, and males rise?  :Confused:

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## Slim

> Kind of the reptile equivalent of the paper weight...purty but kinda useless...


Well, if that is the case, then you can call me a paper weight collector since I have a rack full of males with no intentions of breeding them  :Wink:

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## Dragoon

> Really?  Does a ball python HAVE to breed and reproduce in order to have value?  Or does every loved pet ball python (including my own, as I am no breeder) have no more value than a paper weight?  
> 
> Interesting...


Only needs to be able to breed to justify the $1000 price tag.  I'll still buy a female desert for the right price.

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## JLC

> Only needs to be able to breed to justify the $1000 price tag.  I'll still buy a female desert for the right price.


 :Confused2:   I spent $1000 for my doberman...and another couple hundred to get her spayed so she couldn't/wouldn't breed.  

That's not to say that I don't understand MOST people's reluctance to spend a grand on a snake just because it's pretty.  But my point was to question the statement that the animals have NO value for no other reason than that they can't breed. 

I just find the whole discussion very...eye opening.

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_Slim_ (05-16-2012)

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## Slim

> I just find the whole discussion very...eye opening.


At the risk of taking this thread in a very strange direction, my snakes help me deal with my PTSD, and allow me to relax when things get stressful for me and I want to go off the deep end.

I can't put a price tag or value on how much that is worth to me.

Ok, weird rant off, back to your regular programing  :Wink:

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JLC (05-16-2012),_Shadera_ (05-17-2012)

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## h00blah

> I just find the whole discussion very...eye opening.


Indeed  :Weirdface: . However I wouldn't think badly of some of the people who probably surprised you in a negative way lol, a lot of people these days are more interested in the business aspect of ball pythons. They want to INVEST in ball pythons and ball python morphs. Of course a morph that can't produce would be useless to them.

I don't think deserts themselves should be worth 1k because they're not that cool looking. I would have gotten a bumblebee for $800 (that's how much they were when I joined) and I had no intention of breeding lol. I think bee's are freakn HOT. Even to this day, if you see a sweet bee, you gotta have it  :Good Job: !! It's a beautiful snake even if it's just a pet.

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## WingedWolfPsion

I think people will freak out, and prices will drop....hopefully, the male prices will stabilize once people come to their senses.  This makes Desert a more rare and precious morph than any of the others, because only males will breed.  This means the number of breedable deserts will always be low.  Regardless of the combination, 1/4 of the clutch will be sold as 'pet only' animals.  Combinations with multiple recessives may take longer to produce.  I don't think that having 1/4 of the clutch sell for the price of normals (which is what I see EVENTUALLY happening) is too much of a price to pay to work with this gene.

However, I do sincerely hope that people WILL stop trying to breed the females, soon.  They not only slug out, they're heavily prone to egg binding, and they are dying in droves due to these attempts.  I think the females should be sold with a non-breeding agreement, the way female pet-quality purebred dogs are.  The females should be discouraged from going into a breeding cycle, as it could be a risk to their lives.

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MarkS (05-18-2012),_Slim_ (05-17-2012)

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## Lair of Dragons

Just thought I would let you all know...John Woolards Desert died trying to pass the last two eggs...2008 female at 2000g.  :Tears: 
Travis

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## bad-one

> Just thought I would let you all know...John Woolards Desert died trying to pass the last two eggs...2008 female at 2000g. 
> Travis


That's just heartbreaking  :Tears:   Were any of the eggs fertile?

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## JLC

> That's just heartbreaking   Were any of the eggs fertile?


No.  :Sad: 

Very sad news, indeed.

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## Lair of Dragons

> That's just heartbreaking   Were any of the eggs fertile?


No...none...he cut them in the pictures...they were yellow...he has a Tiger female bred from the same Desert male that is due any day...he had them at cooler temps for a long time thinking it would solve the problem..same thinking I HAD...
I just can't grasp the fact that Mother Nature would make such a nice looking morph that is not venomous and that the males can breed and reproduce and the females throw slugs and some end up dying for the attempt.  
Travis

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## Slim

That really is sad news.  I agree with Donna's earlier post.  Maybe it's time we stop trying to breed these Desert girls, and just enjoy them as pets.

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MarkS (05-18-2012)

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## RandyRemington

In the wild the line probably would have eventually died out due to the lower production from only the males.  Just luck that someone found/hatched it into captivity where the selection pressure is different.  

I really haven't been keeping up with all the morphs now days.  There is another thread here where someone was picking from two higher end morph/combo females and it occurred to me that I have no idea if either is proven to reproduce.  At this point I would assume any new morph could have reproductive issues in one or both sexes until proven otherwise.

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## sho220

> Really?  Does a ball python HAVE to breed and reproduce in order to have value?  Or does every loved pet ball python (including my own, as I am no breeder) have no more value than a paper weight?  
> 
> Interesting...


Lighten up Francis...it was a joke...

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## Royal Hijinx

I do not think they will sell as low as a normal, but I could see them in the $100-200 range for a female.

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## h00blah

> Just thought I would let you all know...John Woolards Desert died trying to pass the last two eggs...2008 female at 2000g. 
> Travis


Man that's salt on the wounds  :Sad: ... My sincere condolences to John.. I don't know him, but I know losing a pet is painful...

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## loonunit

> I spent $1000 for my doberman...and another couple hundred to get her spayed so she couldn't/wouldn't breed.  
> 
> That's not to say that I don't understand MOST people's reluctance to spend a grand on a snake just because it's pretty.  But my point was to question the statement that the animals have NO value for no other reason than that they can't breed. 
> 
> I just find the whole discussion very...eye opening.


Sure, I did the same with my $500 German Shorthair. Sometimes I regret it and wish he could breed, because he's so sweet, and I feel strongly that most dog breeds would benefit from breeding for sweetness. But the world is already full of sweet dogs looking for homes...

Did I buy my first piebald FOR her breeding value? Nah, I bought her because I was over the moon about ball pythons, and pieds especially. And I thought she was gorgeous. But I was only willing to pay as much as I did because I knew there was a pretty good chance I could get some of it back eventually.

And I can definitely only justify having MULTIPLE pieds because I want to do projects with them.

So, no, I don't think my snakes' value is _solely_ in their ability to breed? But I really DO want to make pied combos. So do lots of other people. I'd argue that the ability to produce similarly cool offspring _adds_ to my ball pythons' value in a very real way.

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## RandyRemington

My ancestors have been farming for thousands of years.  It's in my blood.  I started breeding hamsters in the 3rd grade, lol.  I understand the concept of pet only but I see a nice looking animal and I want to make more/better.

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## JLC

I hope no one got the impression from my statement that I have anything against breeding, or even valuing animals based on their breeding potential.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I was just put off by the back-handed, casual implication that because they couldn't breed they had NO value.

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_Slim_ (05-18-2012),_West Coast Jungle_ (05-28-2012)

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## Dragoon

no one ever revered to no value but each person has their threshold for return on investment.

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## WingedWolfPsion

> Just thought I would let you all know...John Woolards Desert died trying to pass the last two eggs...2008 female at 2000g. 
> Travis


That's a HORRIBLE shame, I'm very sorry to hear that she didn't make it.  :Sad:   Clearly, something is wrong with the structure of these animals' reproductive tract, or they wouldn't be dying the way they are.

We must always remember that a color or pattern morph is a mutation, and most mutations in nature are detrimental.  Only rarely are they beneficial, or neutral.  Desert is due to a single mutated gene, and that gene must also control something that is involved with the female reproductive system.  (Or, even more likely, the Desert appearance is a side-effect of whatever this gene is actually affecting).

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_Slim_ (05-18-2012)

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## Dragoon

Anyone else get a PM from someone with 0 posts trying to sell desert females?

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## Shadera

> Anyone else get a PM from someone with 0 posts trying to sell desert females?


It was likely this post that prompted them to message you.




> Only needs to be able to breed to justify the $1000 price tag.  I'll still buy a female desert for the right price.


I'll probably end up buying a nice combo girl just to keep as a pet at some point, but I'll never attempt to breed her.  Maybe a desert pin, those're nice.

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## Lair of Dragons

> Anyone else get a PM from someone with 0 posts trying to sell desert females?


Yes I did and I would guess you did too
Travis

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## Lair of Dragons

Well,
Johns Woolards Enchi Desert female pushed out 4 slugs today and still has 3 to go....I hope and pray for him she passes the other three and makes it through it...she is also 2000+ g  and is kept at lower temps...back to square one....
I know there are larger breeders with a lot of more experience that have to have some idea what to do next....would love to hear it if you are willing to share the same info that John was most kind share....who is a I real stand up guy in my book
Travis
Lair of Dragons

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_Don_ (05-29-2012),_oskyle1567_ (05-24-2012),_Slim_ (05-22-2012)

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## Royal Hijinx

I am hoping John's forwardness will prompt others in the project to come forward with numbers and what they have tried.  

Time to put to rest rumors with facts, as John has.

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_Don_ (05-29-2012),JLC (05-22-2012),_oskyle1567_ (05-24-2012),_Shadera_ (05-23-2012),_Slim_ (05-22-2012),_Zombie_ (05-22-2012)

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> However, I do sincerely hope that people WILL stop trying to breed the females, soon.  They not only slug out, they're heavily prone to egg binding, and they are dying in droves due to these attempts.  I think the females should be sold with a non-breeding agreement, the way female pet-quality purebred dogs are.  The females should be discouraged from going into a breeding cycle, as it could be a risk to their lives.



... And this is exactly why I would have to give it an awful lot of thought before investing in a male desert or combo (even if he was the right price).

I worry that a non-breeding clause in a sales agreement would be useless in ball pythons. We already know how much value a piece of paper has to many people (think of all those folks with "Genetics Guarantees" that mean nothing) and basically, all you would be doing is selling the snake with a piece of paper that says, "I don't want you to breed this snake." Sure, you could theoretically sue them for breach of contract if they DID try, but who's really going to do that? 

A dog sold without breeding rights cannot have his or her litters registered, and many breeders won't even send over the "pet only" registration papers until they receive proof of spay/neuter. So, for most breeds, there isn't much incentive to breed that dog as the pups won't be registrable. Sure, some HIGHLY dishonest people will still do that, but I think the existence of a registry for most breeds makes it much less common. Ball pythons have no registry, and probably never will. 

Additionally, screening of potential buyers can help to weed out those few dishonest people who would try and breed a "not for breeding" animal. In dogs, this screening is of major importance, and once you've found that good home, the dog is likely to stay there for life. (I hope ...) A dog's life expectancy is only ~10-15 years, max. Even if it needs to be re-homed at some point, if you were successful in finding someone honest and responsible, they most likely did get the dog spayed or neutered so it likely won't be breeding in its new home. I am less worried about the person that I sell my theoretical desert female baby to -- since they will have heard from the source that trying to breed their new pet could be fatal -- and a lot more worried about the person that bought it from the person that he sold it to. These are animals with a 30-40+ year lifespan. They are quite likely to change hands at least once, probably multiple times during their life. Somewhere along the line, the message of "Don't breed this! It could kill her!" may get lost, and if the snake winds up with someone who isn't too familiar with morphs, she could get bred without really any intentional dishonesty.

Soo ... Yeah. Believe me, I'm pretty bummed about this, and I have not one penny invested in this morph. I just think some of the combos are outrageous ... And I don't know if I could really work with them in good conscience.  :Sad:

----------

_Jabberwocky Dragons_ (05-24-2012)

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## WingedWolfPsion

> a lot more worried about the person that bought it from the person that he sold it to. These are animals with a 30-40+ year lifespan. They are quite likely to change hands at least once, probably multiple times during their life. Somewhere along the line, the message of "Don't breed this! It could kill her!" may get lost, and if the snake winds up with someone who isn't too familiar with morphs, she could get bred without really any intentional dishonesty.


But, the same can be said of normal ball pythons--they're far more likely to wind up in the hands of someone who doesn't know proper ball python care, than a morph would be.  Should we refuse to sell them, due to this?  I don't see a reason to borrow potential trouble.  Once we sell an animal, it's out of our hands, and in the hands of the person who buys it.  At that point, it's up to them to behave ethically, and ensure that anyone THEY sell the animal to, knows what they are doing.  

The best we can do is try to ensure that we make information available, and promote that information as much as possible, to help reduce the chances of neglect or mishandling.  I don't think Desert females are necessarily at higher risk than normal males, though for different reasons.  I know it's not enough reason to prevent me from working with the desert gene in the future, if I have the opportunity.
I wonder if a spay procedure could be developed for them?

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> But, the same can be said of normal ball pythons--they're far more likely to wind up in the hands of someone who doesn't know proper ball python care, than a morph would be.  Should we refuse to sell them, due to this?  I don't see a reason to borrow potential trouble.  Once we sell an animal, it's out of our hands, and in the hands of the person who buys it.  At that point, it's up to them to behave ethically, and ensure that anyone THEY sell the animal to, knows what they are doing.  
> 
> The best we can do is try to ensure that we make information available, and promote that information as much as possible, to help reduce the chances of neglect or mishandling.  I don't think Desert females are necessarily at higher risk than normal males, though for different reasons.  I know it's not enough reason to prevent me from working with the desert gene in the future, if I have the opportunity.
> I wonder if a spay procedure could be developed for them?



I am a vet (as of this past Sunday -- yay!!) so spaying before selling them is definitely an option that would be available to me. It would be interesting, too, to see what their reproductive tract looks like on a macroscopic scale, and even to send in some sections for histopath ... Hmm!

I can see your point regarding normal males. That's actually an interesting consideration, and it is definitely something that I often give thought to (the fate of "not for breeding quality" individuals of the various species that I work with). 

I think that right now, desert propagation falls into that "ethical grey zone" for me personally, similar to spiders ... Difference being, of course, that I do currently own spiders (and have a clutch in the incubator  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ), but don't have any deserts.

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## Slashmaster

I'm sad to hear about the 2000g desert that passed away. That's truly a shame. As recently as October 2011 I was given a pretty solid guarantee by Chad of Pro Exotics that my desert combo would breed if I put her on the bottom of my rack where the temperatures were cooler. With the fact that deserts are dying from the breeding process, I feel even more reluctant to breed her if the time came... I wonder if more news will come in the next 1-2 years... either a solid yes or no...

But with respect to eating, my desert combo is a fabulous eater. Granted, she is probably among the weirdest feeders in the world, but since I know her eating quirks, she eats every week for me. She is gaining weight quite solidly.

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## Royal Hijinx

Well, the bottom is officially falling out on the price of females.

Mike Wilbanks just sold two Tiger (Desert Enchi) females for $500 each, and I saw another ad that was throwing in a female for $100 if you bought a male.

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_Slim_ (05-28-2012)

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## alittleFREE

They have no other health problems aside from the breeding issues, though, correct? There wouldn't be a reason not to buy a desert (or desert combo)  female if you maybe just liked the look and planned on having it simply as a pet?

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## Slim

> They have no other health problems aside from the breeding issues, though, correct? There wouldn't be a reason not to buy a desert (or desert combo)  female if you maybe just liked the look and planned on having it simply as a pet?


As long as you're familiar with the issues surrounding Desert females and their complications with breeding, I see no reason why they wouldn't make fine and beautiful pets.

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## KingPythons

This might be a stupi question but what about the dessert female combos, are they useless ?

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## sho220

> This might be a stupi question but what about the dessert female combos, are they useless ?


I believe this problem affects any female with the Desert gene, combo or not.  And it's "Desert"..."dessert" is a tasty treat...

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_Annarose15_ (05-30-2012),_KingPythons_ (05-28-2012)

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## KingPythons

T9 sucks but you get my drift spelling B champ lol

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## sho220

> T9 sucks but you get my drift spelling B champ lol


haha...I was usually out in the 2nd or 3rd round...I'm not a grate speller... :Wink:

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## Crazygecko

Are there any other morphs of ball pythons where females don't lay viable eggs?

That question right there had me thinking, What if a Desert isn't what we think it is. 
I know its a long shot but what if its a hybrid.
Lets say a Jag carpet x Ball and after a few gens of breeding male carpalls back to female Ball pythons you get a snake that looks like this but has a lethal gene when you finally use a female showing the mutation.
The desert is almost what I would picture a jag x ball mix a few generations down the line bred just to ball python females.

Was just something I have been thinking about.
Any thoughts on it?

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## Slim

> Any thoughts on it?


Interesting hypothesis.  A DNA test would show the presence of other genetic material, right?

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## dr del

Hi,




> Are there any other morphs of ball pythons where females don't lay viable eggs?
> 
> That question right there had me thinking, What if a Desert isn't what we think it is. 
> I know its a long shot but what if its a hybrid.
> Lets say a Jag carpet x Ball and after a few gens of breeding male carpalls back to female Ball pythons you get a snake that looks like this but has a lethal gene when you finally use a female showing the mutation.
> The desert is almost what I would picture a jag x ball mix a few generations down the line bred just to ball python females.
> 
> Was just something I have been thinking about.
> Any thoughts on it?


You do realise that's the thing that scares people the most about the hybrids?

That 5 generations later you discover you had a hybrid in the original group and that all your hard work has resulted in nothing but a collection of mutts.


dr del

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_Slim_ (05-28-2012),_Wh00h0069_ (05-30-2012)

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## Crazygecko

> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> You do realise that's the thing that scares people the most about the hybrids?
> 
> That 5 generations later you discover you had a hybrid in the original group and that all your hard work has resulted in nothing but a collection of mutts.
> 
> 
> dr del


That's exactly what I was sort of hinting at. 
The Desert pattern to me is what I would imagine a Jag carpall would look like a few gens down the line. And with the Jag being a somewhat lethal gene I wonder if it could be causing this. That is only if the slim chance these are actually a hybrid. 
I have just never heard of any other morph of ball python where females just don't lay viable eggs.
But who knows what is actually going on here, it would be almost impossible to prove.

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## Serpent_Nirvana

Well, I started to type that I think that when hybrids are sterile due to mismatched chromosome counts, it's usually both sexes. However, good ol' Wikipedia refutes me by saying that, in fact, of the scattered accounts of mules producing young, _all_ have been female. So, maybe ...

However, if this were more of a "mystery morph," I'd be a bit more inclined towards that hypothesis -- but don't we have pretty good "origin stories" on two separate lines of Desert that are both female-sterile?  :Confused:

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## Crazygecko

I am curious where did both lines come from? Could they have originated from them same person in Africa?

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## WingedWolfPsion

It's a single gene, not a hybrid.  We know this because the offspring do not look like gradations in between both parents--they are either deserts, or they are not.  If the females are not deserts, then they are not sterile, even if they had a desert sire.

In hybrids, the offspring will look like a cross between the parent species--they may look more like one than the other.  You will often get individuals that look more like one parent, and others that look like the other parent, in the same clutch/litter.  Deserts look like ball pythons, and not like anything else.

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## RobNJ

> It's a single gene, not a hybrid.


Off topic, but I think what Crazy gecko is talking about would be more accurately called an intergrade rather than a hybrid....which though I doubt is a plausible scenario with deserts, but can be a real issue in the future of ball python breeding and careless breeders producing hybrids "just because they can". I think it's entirely possible to breed out the look of a different species while retaining some color/pattern traits...it's been done with corn snakes.

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## Crazygecko

Yes  what Robnj said is what I was thinking of.  And the normal females throwing viable eggs is what I would expect to happen here. If the jag gene was in the desert that's what I think would be the lethal part so normal looking females would be ok.
And after multiple generations I do believe you could get rid of the carpet look. Let's say the snake is only 10% or less carpet and the rest ball then wouldn't it be possible for it to look more like a ball?

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## PsychD_Student

> Are there any other morphs of ball pythons where females don't lay viable eggs?
> 
> That question right there had me thinking, What if a Desert isn't what we think it is. 
> I know its a long shot but what if its a hybrid.


I highly doubt that the desert is a hybrid species. The main evidence to support this idea is the fact that this morph is dominant, so only 50% of the offspring have the genetic traits. 100% of a hybrid's offspring would exhibit characteristics such as these and look similar to the hybrid parent. 

However, if it wasn't bred to a similarly genetic specimen (i.e. 50% ball python 50% something else) but to a 100% ball python, it would likely look more like a BP than the original hybrid parent due to the decreased "other species" genetic material. 

Also, hybrid species of snakes are NOT actually sterile, and there are a multitude of different "morphs" which are dependent on the amount of genetic material of each species. I don't think its immoral or wrong to do the hybrid thing. Its actually kind of interesting and cool-- however it is important to maintain genetic purity in captive species! So all hybrids should be labeled as such, IMHO.

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## Crazygecko

> I highly doubt that the desert is a hybrid species. The main evidence to support this idea is the fact that this morph is dominant, so only 50% of the offspring have the genetic traits. 100% of a hybrid's offspring would exhibit characteristics such as these and look similar to the hybrid parent. 
> 
> However, if it wasn't bred to a similarly genetic specimen (i.e. 50% ball python 50% something else) but to a 100% ball python, it would likely look more like a BP than the original hybrid parent due to the decreased "other species" genetic material. 
> 
> Also, hybrid species of snakes are NOT actually sterile, and there are a multitude of different "morphs" which are dependent on the amount of genetic material of each species. I don't think its immoral or wrong to do the hybrid thing. Its actually kind of interesting and cool-- however it is important to maintain genetic purity in captive species! So all hybrids should be labeled as such, IMHO.


But what if the hybrid was from a Morph of another species of snake that was dominant? I am not talking about a straight normal ball to a normal carpet but a Jag. That is what I was trying to say.
Jag carpet is a dominant trait so a Hybrid jag carpall would be dominant. 
And since the Jag is partialy lethal who knows what could happen and maybe it would make all females lethal or sterile.
Once you start mixing morphs into the Hybrids who knows what would happen to some of these genes. They could be lethal who knows.

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## Crazygecko

[QUOTE=PsychD_Student;1873729]there are a multitude of different "morphs" which are dependent on the amount of genetic material of each species.QUOTE]

There are also morphs that aren't.  Check out the youtube vid of the spider carpall. Sick looking snake, but a few gens back into carpets and you wouldnt even be able to tell it was a Ball python co dom morph and it could be passed off as a new carpet morph.
Not saying it would happen but there are some very shady people out there who might not be able to resist the temptation.

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## MorphMaster

Does this mean there's an issue with a female that isn't just desert, say tiger pin? Would it still be infertile as the rumor goes?

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## Crazygecko

As long as the female has Desert in it pretty sure there is a problem until someone proves there isn't.

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## Andybill

> Does this mean there's an issue with a female that isn't just desert, say tiger pin? Would it still be infertile as the rumor goes?


I asked this same question on a different thread. From other's experience any female with the desert gene is affected, they are infertile..

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## Rallisonreptiles

I'm gonna try adding calcium to the rats that I feed. Mine and see if it's a vitamin dif problem I mean can't hurt. To try it

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## h00blah

> I'm gonna try adding calcium to the rats that I feed. Mine and see if it's a vitamin dif problem I mean can't hurt. To try it


Umm... Yes it can. Your desert female can die. That might not hurt YOU, but I have a feeling that the snake might not be too happy about that..

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_C&H Exotic Morphs_ (07-18-2012)

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## kdreptiles

> I'm gonna try adding calcium to the rats that I feed. Mine and see if it's a vitamin dif problem I mean can't hurt. To try it



Calcium wouldn't be the vitamin it lacks, if they lack any at all. Their prey has a lot of calcium... you know, with the bone and all. A snake of any mutation is built to digest bone. If metabolizing calcium were an issue, I'd think we'd be seeing bone fragments, or in the vey least, white (that isn't urate) in their poo. No, I'd go with something more along the lines of a general multivitamin... but seeing as we don't really know what amounts of which vitamins snakes need, it is probably not the best idea. Especially since vitamins like A and D are fat soluble and can be OD'd on.

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## WingedWolfPsion

For those who are thinking of 'trying' things to get their female deserts to breed:

The risk of death is VERY VERY HIGH.  The reports are STILL coming in, one after another, of females dead of egg binding.

It is a miserable death due to necrosis in some cases, though some have died apparently of an embolism after a retained egg caused internal hemorraging.

There is no known vitamin deficiency I am aware of that would cause the combination of sterility and inability to pass the infertile eggs.  Are you aware of one?  Because if you are not, then your experiment has no basis, and risks the animal's life without justification.

This is the point at which people should, ethically, STOP.  There is not going to be a magic bullet or technique that suddenly makes desert females fertile.  There is no precedent for one, there absolutely no reason to believe there is one, and there is absolutely no scientific basis for one.  The females ARE dying in these attempts.  Continuing is heartless and wrong.

You can take this or leave it, but that's my opinion.  Desert is a really pretty gene.  Stick to breeding only the males.

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_kdreptiles_ (07-18-2012),_Pinoy Pythons_ (07-19-2012)

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## dreese88

I'd take it one step further WWP and say to stop breeding them in general when statistically, 1/4 of offspring will be desert females. 

I'd put my money on it being a hormonal issue, not a vitamin deficiency and according to people more knowledgable than myself, there are no full hormonal assays available for normal bp's, much less deserts

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## dreese88

just wanted to add this...an independent study done by a vet

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...gnostics/page2

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## Coleslaw007

Surgery on a desert female! 
Someone on a group I'm in on FB posted this.
http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...095#post769095

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_Serpent_Nirvana_ (07-28-2012)

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