# Site General > General Herp > Herp Broadcast >  So Sad - 33 Reptiles Die Overnight at Zoo

## bcr229

http://wate.com/2017/03/25/33-reptil...zoo-knoxville/

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## CALM Pythons

shame...


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_Eric Alan_ (03-25-2017),_zina10_ (03-25-2017)

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## Eric Alan

Oh, man. Massive, immediate losses like that lead me to believe foul play is involved - especially in a reptile building with less than cuddly creatures. I hope they get the answers they need through the necropsy results.

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_Lizardlicks_ (03-26-2017),_zina10_ (03-25-2017)

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## zina10

Yeah, I'm getting a bad feeling about that one, too. 

If it was an unfortunate accident due to power failure or thermostat failures, they would have been able to establish that pretty quickly, I would think?

I hope this wasn't something along the lines of "PETA" or a disgruntled ex employee or some reptile haters bent on causing mayhem. A accident is heart breaking enough as it is, but the thought of someone doing this willfully. 

Such a shame all around. I hope they will update after the investigation.

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_Eric Alan_ (03-25-2017)

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## sarahndipity

As someone who works in an aquarium/zoo, it breaks my heart for these herpetologists  :Sad:  I hope they can find some comfort and closure over the next few weeks regarding the cause. You know the staff is devastated over such a loss. My thoughts and prayers are with Knoxville Zoo!

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_Eric Alan_ (03-25-2017)

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## EmilyandArlo

This is terrible! I hope that it was some freak accident (not that it would make it any less tragic) rather than something more sinister, but it does sound fishy...


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## CALM Pythons

If anyone hears results please share back on this thread so we can all Subscribe. 


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Craiga 01453 (03-26-2017)

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## Craiga 01453

Man, this is heartbreaking.  I'm super curious to see what the necropsy results reveal. If anybody hears anything new about this please share. Thanks in advance.

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## WastelandExotics

Subscribed - I hope they find their answers. Any loss of a reptile/pet is a tragedy but this is especially tragic because not only were most of these reptile ambassador animals (which help the public understand the importance of these awesome animals), but there were critically endangered species that were lost as well. 

I also can't help but think fowl play. Very interested in seeing how this one pans out.

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## crenfrow524

I hope they let the public know the final verdict. It could go a long way with helping others avoid the same mistakes or helping to bring a perpetrator to justice.

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## DLena

The loss is irreplaceable. I so hope it was failing infrastructure and not a hate crime.

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## zina10

To kill them overnight due to electric failure, that would have to be heat, right ? 

Cold doesn't kill them overnight. Esp. since a building wouldn't dip down to freezing that fast. Not to mention, they would have noticed that as soon as stepping in. They probably keep a certain "ambient" temperature on top of controlling the enclosures temps. 

So if there was a electrical failure, could it have been overheating? But in that case, would all enclosures be run by the same thermostat to be failing on "high" and over heating? That seems wrong. And what could make ALL thermostats fail at the same time, in the wide open (heating) setting?

And gases?? What kind of gases could enter that old building that would kill all the snakes? Carbon Monoxide perhaps? But wouldn't they be able to establish that fairly quickly as well ?? 

I know the keepers have got to be devastated.

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## DLena

That makes a lot of sense, Zina. Maybe food contamination? This needs to be addressed publicly. It's not some little thing to be buried in the news.

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## Slither Seeker

animal rights folks don't usually kill the thing they wish to see free, so I don't think that's it, besides, to efficiently kill that many reptiles that quickly without leaving any traces would be very difficult.  I would suspect an airborn toxin, like maybe a new cleaning agent with something really toxic to reptiles in it was used by the janitor on the floors overnight, something fairly volatile and readily available at stores.  is there a cleaning agent that toxic to reptiles that is used to clean floors?  maybe a pesticide was sprayed to control flees in mamal exhibits but was accidently applied to the reptile area?  anyway, super sad and rather devastating to conservation efforts, hope they figure it out quick and share with us what they find so we can all learn from the tragedy and apply the knowledge to best practices!

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## zina10

It was probably not animal right people, but you would be surprised how whacko some of those people are. Some of them actually care very little about saving the animals, and they care more about punishing the owners that dare to keep pets as "pets". Being scared of snakes, they probably would not want to set them "free" as to release them, but they would want to cause damage to the keepers and zoos, for daring to keep those animals in cages..

For a cleaner to have killed the reptiles, it would have had to been something so strong, I'm not sure how a person could safely use it without wearing a mask. But then you never know...

With it being a old building and in need of repair/replacement, perhaps some work was done on it? Certain sealers and glues can be pretty toxic. 

The thing is, any of those problems should have been figured out pretty quickly. If anything was so toxic that it killed the snakes, traces of the smell should still have been in the air. Unless its a odorless gas. 

Mite treatment gone wrong? A "bug bomb" set off ? 

Again, wouldn't they keep some records?

I do hope they figure it out and share their findings, however difficult that may be. It should help other zoos and reptile keepers to avoid the same problem.

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## Sallos

http://www.wfmynews2.com/news/33-rep...ille/425621849 Looks like their news is reporting that it was likely an issue with one of the building systems, and they treated the surviving animals with oxygen.I'm guessing they already know the "what" but are investigating the "how" before releasing that info.

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_CALM Pythons_ (03-26-2017),_zina10_ (03-26-2017)

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## WastelandExotics

Updated article with a little more info as far as what they have ruled out; this just gets stranger and stranger! 

http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/l...aths/99682162/

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## zina10

Holy Cow !!! 

That is getting weirder and weirder !!!

"we may never know" would not work for me. Something so intense, deadly and swift has GOT to have a definite cause. Not finding it would drive me crazy..

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## sneksNferts

Tested negative for carbon monoxide, but I assume when they do that, they're testing the air?  If something happened shortly after they left for the night, could it not have seeped out by the time they were discovered the next day and were able to get someone over there to test?

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## JodanOrNoDan

My bet is on a chemical aerosol. Most likely a cleaning agent.

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## Craiga 01453

It really is getting weirder.  They may "never know" the cause of these animals dying.  Wasn't food related and apparently not gas ingestion.  Some animals had substrate in their mouths, some did not.  Some had mild redness in the lungs. Strange and getting stranger...

- - - Updated - - -

It really is getting weirder.  They may "never know" the cause of these animals dying.  Wasn't food related and apparently not gas ingestion.  Some animals had substrate in their mouths, some did not.  Some had mild redness in the lungs. Strange and getting stranger...

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## zina10

> My bet is on a chemical aerosol. Most likely a cleaning agent.


Could be very well so. But then..in a zoo setting, everything is logged. 
Cleaning crews are on a schedule. And in animals settings, only certain and approved cleaning agents are allowed/used. They know how dangerous certain fumes can be. 

I would assume that this is one of the scenarios that was one of their immediate concerns and got ruled out? 

This kind of reeks of someone "knowing" what would kill such animals and introducing it into the room somehow. Which could even be done from the outside, only a small opening is needed..
Its just to weird that they still don't know. A cleaning crew being on schedule for that night, or even at the zoo, would be easy to check out, I would think?? 

Just strange..

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## JodanOrNoDan

I suppose it could have been a deliberate act of some sort, however it is usually the simplest scenario that turns out to be the cause. Someone screwed up bad and someone else is covering for the screw up with the logic being applied that no matter who's fault it is the result cannot be reversed.

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## FlynnTheBP

Seems strange that foul play could be involved...how would someone kill all those animals with no physical signs? Gas poisoning? Maybe. The zoo claims that alarms for temps were set and surely someone checked on the animals occasionally. It's sad but I would guess that some sort of poisoning must have occurred, since it doesn't make sense that some of the more temperature-hardy species such as rattlers would die, but others wouldn't. It's pretty upsetting no matter what happened.

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## distaff

> Could be very well so. But then..in a zoo setting, everything is logged. 
> Cleaning crews are on a schedule. And in animals settings, only certain and approved cleaning agents are allowed/used. They know how dangerous certain fumes can be. 
> 
> I would assume that this is one of the scenarios that was one of their immediate concerns and got ruled out? 
> 
> This kind of reeks of someone "knowing" what would kill such animals and introducing it into the room somehow. Which could even be done from the outside, only a small opening is needed..
> Its just to weird that they still don't know. A cleaning crew being on schedule for that night, or even at the zoo, would be easy to check out, I would think?? 
> 
> Just strange..


You would think everyone would be informed of that, but don't rule out simple "stupid."  I've told this story before, but I used to work in a building that supposedly had a mould problem.  One day, someone took upon themselves to get an aerosol can of something NASTY, and spray the air to get rid of the mould.  We were all working there at the time, and this guy is just going around cubicles spraying!  I nearly gagged from the fumes.  People also love their air fresheners.  I can't stand to be around that stuff.

The deaths may have been due to an odd one-off no one would necessarily have known about.  For example, microwave popcorn party for the night cleaning crew?  Those bags have teflon in them, and are a deadly hazard to birds.  I haven't heard of teflon hazards to reptiles, but teflon in a microwave bag is the kind of thing almost no one is even aware of to begin with.

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_zina10_ (04-05-2017)

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## zina10

You are all right. 

I just can't wrap my head around it that this happened at night. When alarms are set and entries are logged. 

They said that was checked upon, NO-ONE entered the room during that time. I suppose they can make sure of that, if they said they did?

So how did the fumes get in there accidentally? Without anyone entering?

That is why I find this so suspicious..

Otherwise I would absolutely go with "cleaning gone wrong" or, given the building was aging as they say, some renovations gone wrong. Many adhesives, spray foam, insulation etc is very toxic. But again, at night? With no-one having entered the building??

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## bcr229

Since the eggs in incubators were ok I would guess that the facility didn't overheat.  There should also have been multiple thermometers and/or thermostats that would have sounded alarms had temperatures climbed dangerously high.

IIRC signs of CO poisoning do appear in bloodwork.

There hasn't been any mention of audio/video security footage from inside or around the building, often these systems just run on a continuous loop that overwrite footage more than 48 hours old.  If there was a system in place then the authorities would know if this was a deliberate act.

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## bcr229

Update:
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/2...les/316341001/

From the article:
*Exact toxin unknown*The exact identity of the deadly toxin remains a mystery. Tests couldn't determine the poison. 
"It helps to know that most likely an environmental toxic agent caused this," Zoo  President and CEO Lisa New said Friday. "But we will never know, we will not be able to determine that toxin." 

Tests on both the animals and their building didn't pinpoint the exact cause of death. No poisons or infections were found in blood from the dead reptiles or unaffected animals. Zoo officials also determined within days of the event the reptiles didn't die from food issues, disease, infection or any human or animal predator.
The deaths happened on the night of a violent thunderstorm that swept through East Knoxville but no zoo systems pointed to any electrical failure of lightning strike, New said. 
But  zoo officials point out that carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and electrical shock cannot be tested for in animals' bodies after death and so can't be ruled out as potential causes. Knoxville Utilities Board tests done shortly after the deaths didn't find carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide or methane gas in the building.

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_tttaylorrr_ (05-12-2017)

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## tttaylorrr

): sad.

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## Jhill001

> animal rights folks don't usually kill the thing they wish to see free



Tell that to PETA.

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*bcr229* (05-13-2017)

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## Albert Clark

So very sad and upsetting. I just have to lean in the direction of a respiratory event that occurred. How and what seems to be a mystery but with the irritated state of the lungs and the substrate found in the mouths of the snakes is telling. CO gas is colorless, odorless, and tasteless. Things that make you go hmmm.

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Craiga 01453 (05-13-2017)

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## zina10

Has anyone ever heard of an update in this situation ?

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## Starscream

A quick google search gives me this: http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/2...les/316341001/

They say it was a "unknown toxin" and that they may never know the cause, which is really sad. And apparently the total death count ended up being 34. They ended up deciding to never use that building to house animals again, because they couldn't replicate anything that their sensors were rigged to detect.

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_zina10_ (09-30-2017)

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## zina10

> A quick google search gives me this: http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/2...les/316341001/
> 
> They say it was a "unknown toxin" and that they may never know the cause, which is really sad. And apparently the total death count ended up being 34. They ended up deciding to never use that building to house animals again, because they couldn't replicate anything that their sensors were rigged to detect.


Wow. How unfortunate. Its bad enough that so many have died, but never finding out WHY is kind of scary...

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