# Miscellaneous Herp Interests > Venomous Animals >  venomoid?

## oliverstwist

I was looking for a leu. monicaled cobra and ran across some for sale and they saId they had been devenomized and had venimoid implants.

I have no experiance with hots yet, and this was using this fact as a selling oont saying that they could then be owned by anyone.

thoughts?

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## evan385

> I was looking for a leu. monicaled cobra and ran across some for sale and they saId they had been devenomized and had venimoid implants.
> 
> I have no experiance with hots yet, and this was using this fact as a selling oont saying that they could then be owned by anyone.
> 
> thoughts?


I'm guessing the venimoid implants gives them just enough venom to kill a rodent?

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## oliverstwist

No. According to this, there is NO venom left. They do the surgery and removed ALL of those glands. Place implants inside the snake so that they look normal. And then feed themONLY prekilled

 I just wondered if you thought this was 'ethical' to do to an animal (i know what I think)\

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## babyknees

They're highly controversial and generally considered unethical. Also if done improperly their venom sacks could reconnect to the fangs or not be entirely removed. They pretty much should still be treated like hots even though they "don't have venom".

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## evan385

> No. According to this, there is NO venom left. They do the surgery and removed ALL of those glands. Place implants inside the snake so that they look normal. And then feed themONLY prekilled
> 
>  I just wondered if you thought this was 'ethical' to do to an animal (i know what I think)\


Okay then no, I do not believe that this is ethical. If I were to own a cobra (actually one of the easiest snakes to tame) I would take the risk and have some antivenom handy instead of buying a mutilated animal. To do so is to encourage them to continue mutilating these cobras.

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## Kara

If you have no experience with hots yet, you need to find a mentor to actually teach you safe handling skills & snakebite protocol.  Starting off with a monocled cobra is *not* the way to go, regardless of whether or not it's been de-venomized. 

$.02...

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_cmack91_ (11-25-2011),Ezekiel285 (11-25-2011),_Kinra_ (11-25-2011),_Mft62485_ (11-28-2011),_minguss_ (11-26-2011),_oliverstwist_ (11-25-2011),_purplemuffin_ (11-26-2011),_waltah!_ (11-26-2011)

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## Jessica Loesch

VERY controversial.
Oh, and they can get their venom back, so never safe.

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_minguss_ (11-26-2011)

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## oliverstwist

Kara, that's I guess what frightened me. Is I don't have any hots because no one has taught me yet. So I have no buisness owning. But this was trying to make it sound like no big deal.

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## Ezekiel285

> If I were to own a cobra (*actually one of the easiest snakes to tame*)


You sure about that?

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_CoolioTiffany_ (11-26-2011),_djansen_ (11-26-2011)

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## iCandiBallPythons

great vid for you on venomoids http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrWhb7EBVsA

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## cmack91

i personally will never ever ever own a venomoid, the venom is one of the reasons i would buy a venomous snake in the first place. and like stated, they can still grow their venom glands back, so its never 100% safe. and starting off with a monocle is not the best idea. if i were trying to get into hots right now, i would get a snake that we have locally, in my case, it would be the western rattlesnake. the main reason i would go with a local species is because antivenin will be close by in the event of a bite. this isnt likely to be the case with a monocle cobra. but whatever you choose, there is a way to make sure your snake isnt venomous (and note that even this method should never be considered 100% proof), you do a live mouse test, basically you have the snake bite a mouse, and if it lives, its either a dry bite (no venom injected), or the snake has no venom. even this you would want to do numerous times to be sure, and do it often. for example, just because these 5 mice lived, doesnt mean the next five two weeks later will. its up to you, but if you ever buy a venomoid, you have to be willing to own a fully venomous version of that snake, since there is a chance the snake can end up that way. just look into it, and do as much research as possible, and maybe even find some super aggressive snakes to handle with tongs/hooks to get a feel of how to do that. 

and dont take any of this as coming from someone with any experience, as i have 0, this is all just from what ive read

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## Maixx

Another reason this has been considered inhuman is that several species use their venom as part of their digestive process, not just to kill. 
If you want a venomous reptile, first find out the laws, they are illegal in many locations. Then do your homework, how to handle, start off with with non venomous aggressive snakes, then work up to non lethal venomous, then the lethal ones.

Most venomous are illegal in WA, so its a moot point for me.

Jump into this too early any you could end up dead or maimed.

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_darkbloodwyvern_ (12-28-2011),_oliverstwist_ (11-26-2011)

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## Strick

> Okay then no, I do not believe that this is ethical. If I were to own a cobra (actually one of the easiest snakes to tame) I would take the risk and have some antivenom handy instead of buying a mutilated animal. To do so is to encourage them to continue mutilating these cobras.


Might want to do some serious research there...It's all not quite that easy including the anti venom...

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_cmack91_ (11-26-2011),_darkbloodwyvern_ (12-28-2011),Ezekiel285 (11-26-2011),Jessica Loesch (11-26-2011)

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## Enigmatic Reptiles

Well I have assisted in a few different types of Venom gland removal or duct occlusions.  We ONLY will do these for state approved facilities which use the animals for educational purposes and the need for wildlife conservation.  I still do not agree with it one bit...but I feel the same way about debarking.  If getting a dog debarked means that it will remain in a loving household and not end up in a shelter...it is worth it.  Back to the topic.  The procedure which we have had the most LONG TERM success is to occlude and cauterize the venom gland. This is actually far easier than implants and since the duct itself has been in cauterized, there is FAR less likely of a chance of regrowth with function.  This being said I would NEVER trust a bite from any venomous snake regardless of the procedure.  I think if you want to keep hots, take your time and keep the HOT.

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_darkbloodwyvern_ (12-28-2011),_minguss_ (11-28-2011)

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## jason_ladouceur

Venimoids are and atrocity!  Mutilating one of these amazing animals no matter what your motivation goes against any and all things that any animal lover should stand for. In addition to all the snakes that die as a result of this disgusting surgery, the survivors are maimed and as you can see in the video link posted not even reliable safe.   Its all ready been stated but Naja kaouthia is far from an ideal beginner hot. Although by cobra standards they are fairly calm they get pretty big and can be quite a handful for a novice. As mentioned before it would be ideal if you found a mentor to show you the ropes before jumping into any hot snake.  But if this is not possible and you are determined than I suggest you at the very least start with something a little more manageable, maybe you should consider Aspidelaps.  They stay small and will defiantly give you a taste of what it takes to successfully handle elapids. You also need to consider the availability of anti-venom in case you do suffer a bite.  Be aware that anit-venom requires a prescription to obtain,  has a very limited shelf life and is very expensive.  Also depending on where you live ER doctors will more than likely not be aware of how to properly treat any snake bite let alone one from a foreign species.  

And most importantly be careful and be safe.
Jason Ladouceur

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Arcapello (08-08-2012),_darkbloodwyvern_ (12-28-2011),Maixx (11-26-2011)

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## mr.spooky

:Sad: i could be wrong, but there is one place that the venomoids are done right, and are done by a DVM, and given a chip..  im not sure of the "success" rate though.. if venom glands are surgecally removed, and all of the gland is taken, i dont think that they can regenerate the gland.
   the thing that i found out when looking into these animals was that they are illegal in my state... heres the wierd thing,, i live in georgia where it is LEGAL to have HOT NATIVE species,,, but it is illegal to have "hot "non native species.  they (DNR) said that the only way to have a hot non native species was if it was for teaching purposes (wich about only leaves university acredidations),, and more that that, there were stacks of paper work, and expensive fees that you had to pay. (the fees were not a one time thing).
   soo,,, if i wanted a venomoid EDB, i could have one,, or i could have a "hot " EDB :Snake: ...   guess ill never have that gaboon :Sad: 
  spooky

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## WtGreg

Aside from ethical, humane, and legal debates, I would say you don't want to start with a cobra if you are getting into hots. They are beautiful, but also fast, and can have a temper. 

I have had cobras with venom and devenomized and there is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING! I know because I got into hots by jumping straight into cobras (hots, not devenomized at that point), so trust me there. A devonmized needs to be treated as if it were hot, with the fully respect of a deadly cobra. The video posted before is an excellent example of why. If you get bit by one which has venom, even if sold as a v'oid, them do you have access to anything that could help the doctors save your life? Is there anyone in your area that does, because if they can't ship it in in time because it was too far away, then you're screwed, and worse that adds another story in the newspaper to drive people further towards wanting to ban hots and even all reptiles. And, BTW, insurances commonly don't cover antivenom for cases like exotic pet handlers, so you have a potentiaal for a really high medical bill.

With cobras especially, the second you loose respect because you get cocky  with the thought "this is a venomoid, it can't hurt me" is the second you get bit. I know this because I did this. It is so easy to get yourself into that mindset you don't even realize it until it happens and you ask "what was I thinking?" I was good with hots, never got bit by one of my other cobras and handled them perfectly with care, but I got cocky with my v'oid while pinning it and sure enough, I was nipped. Grabbed too lightly and it wiggled all of an inch or two forward as I tightened grip, enough to whip it's haed around to scrape me.  Hardly a nip of only one fang, but that could have killed me if it was one of my other hots or was not properly devenomized.
I am never happy to admit this, but I do cause I know others can learn from my mistake and others have made the same mistake and not been as fortunate as me..

I know I should never have jumped into hots with cobras looking back, but wayyyy back then it seemed like a good idea and I probably wanted an animal to show off, knowing my younger self. That was all the wrong reasoning and it isn't until I got comfortable with handling all my cobras that I realized I really wasn't ready when I began. I didn't have all the forums and other online resources to tell me all the points I hadn't considered, so I hadn't considered alot of what people point out here, now. Please use the resources that are now available to you.

Since noone can stop you, to own a hot is your choice, but get an experienced handler to show you every thing and guide you. I suggest you start with something easier to handle if you are just starting out in hots. I am not trying to say your shouldn't have hots, but really a cobra needs experience before you get one if it is your first hot. It is not a beginner hot in my opinion. *If you are not absolutely comfortable handling a hot cobra, then you shouldn't own a v'oid, cause at the end of it all they are the same thing and should be respected they same*.

my 2-cents in novel form.

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Arcapello (08-08-2012),_babyknees_ (11-26-2011),_cmack91_ (11-26-2011),_CoolioTiffany_ (11-26-2011),_darkbloodwyvern_ (12-28-2011),Ezekiel285 (11-26-2011),Jessica Loesch (11-26-2011),JLC (11-26-2011),_minguss_ (11-26-2011),_mr.spooky_ (11-26-2011),Strick (11-26-2011),_Valentine Pirate_ (11-26-2011),_zeion97_ (11-27-2011)

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## Strick

^^^
Good points there.  My neighbor who got me started with balls is in to hots.  He is teaching me as I help him with his...When I am ready I will get one but not until he says so.  I wont be starting with a cobra either...

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## Jessica Loesch

Yes .. antivenin is extremely expensive and can be difficult to obtain.  So getting it just in case would be quite hard to do.

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## Maixx

> Yes .. antivenin is extremely expensive and can be difficult to obtain.  So getting it just in case would be quite hard to do.


Adding to this, I believe it also has a shelf life. But no idea how long.

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## Denial

If you cant handle the heat buy a cornsnake. Its not rocket science handling venomous snakes. All it takes is common sense and a healthy respect for the animal. The venom is apart of the animal and should not be taken away. The only thing venomoids do is continue to cause people that have no business keeping these animals get even cockier about handling them because there suppose to be safe. Theres a reason venomoids do not come with guarantee.

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## mr.spooky

> If you cant handle the heat buy a cornsnake. Its not rocket science handling venomous snakes. All it takes is common sense and a healthy respect for the animal. The venom is apart of the animal and should not be taken away. The only thing venomoids do is continue to cause people that have no business keeping these animals get even cockier about handling them because there suppose to be safe. Theres a reason venomoids do not come with guarantee.


 id have to disagree with that..  it takes alot more than common sense to keep these.. and do some not come with a guarantee??
 spooky

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_darkbloodwyvern_ (12-28-2011),Jessica Loesch (11-26-2011)

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## Denial

Well then I guess we would have to agree to disagree. They truly are not as bad as you would think. Very defensive but not overly aggressive. Common sense can get you far in life if you use it. Sadly many choose not to

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## Denial

And you forgot were I put in the healthy respect for the animal part. You put those two together  and have a hook in your hand and your on your way to being a hot keeper

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## mr.spooky

lol ,, what do you mean "there not as bad as you think"????  if a hot bites you, theres a chance you might die..  true, ,common sense will get you far,, look at me  LOL,,, but to keep hots, you need to know what to do when bit, how each animal acts, and certain handeling tequnics that most snake keepers dont have (or dont have the need for)..  i know that theres a difference.. iv had copperheads, and been comfortable with them,,, but the first time i hooked a EDB  that was quite a bit fatter than a coke can,,, i knew that i had no business being there. would i get use to them if i did it more, probabally,,,, but next time, ill go in with a little more knowlage than just common secse and a hook in my hand.
 spooky

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_darkbloodwyvern_ (12-28-2011),Jessica Loesch (11-26-2011)

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## Denial

tisk tisk you shouldnt get comfortable with venomous snakes. Yea a bite can be horrible. But its the getting bitten part that should never come. I dont believe every hot keeper gets bitten. If you do things right the first time bits should not occur. Once again Respect the snake. Know your limits know the snakes limits. But keep laughing out loud and enjoying your copperheads. There wonderful animals.

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## mr.spooky

dude, 
   i was being sarcastic about the LOL comment.  and i was talking about me being more comfortable _being_ there. if your not comfortable in your surroundings, or enviroment, you have a higher risk of making mistakes.
  i dont have coppers anymore, but yes, they are nice. very docile.
 spooky

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## Denial

So your talking about being more comfortable at your home handling them? I dont understand that. Do you not go field herping? Are you uncomfortable out in the field? Your comfort level should not matter regardless of where your at when handling these snakes as long as your confident you know what your doing. If you had no business handling the eastern you should of never tried. One knows when there confident enough to handle these animals. Going from a copperhead to an eastern is a pretty big step up the totem pole. But I am glad you walked away without suffering a bite.

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## zeion97

> Adding to this, I believe it also has a shelf life. But no idea how long.





> If you cant handle the heat buy a cornsnake. Its not rocket science handling venomous snakes. All it takes is common sense and a healthy respect for the animal. The venom is apart of the animal and should not be taken away. The only thing venomoids do is continue to cause people that have no business keeping these animals get even cockier about handling them because there suppose to be safe. Theres a reason venomoids do not come with guarantee.


No matter how careful you are, or even how many prevention steps you have in place it could happen. Just like if you step outside you could be hit by a bus, or Even shot. It's chances in life that make life worth living. I'm not going to disagree with the whole "respect the animal" Because you have to, even if You're handling a little BP. I might get bashed for this post, but I know everyone agrees, it could always happen. I will admit, I want to own a hot, but besides living in IL. (Strict venomous laws) and the fact I already have a family started I can't bring myself to do it. Now don't think I'm trying to start anything with you, just understand what I mean. It could happen..... and personally, I myself believe you shouldn't just be able to go out and buy a venomous snake, I mean, with how many laws there are on guns why not some on snakes? ;/

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## Denial

I understand where your coming from and do agree it "could" happen but if done right the chances are very slim. And the whole law thing I believe you should be 18 and show some type of knowledge and caging for the animal but other then that nothing should stop the private keeping of venomous snakes. Its easy for someone who has not kept these animals to imagine the dangers that come with them. And yes they are somewhat different then other snakes they can possibly kill you but when kept right theres really not that much of a difference. This is one reason the WHOLE exotic industry is so screwed with all these laws. Because we bicker inside the industry with what everyone else keeps. We cant get along enough with each other about what we want to keep so how the heck can we fight a government on what we can and can not keep? We have small snake keepers who could care less about big snake keepers and we have big snake keepers that could care less about venomous keepers. When in reality we should all care for everyone and try to make "reasonable" regulations preferably written by someone who has an idea of what they are talking about. Instead of out right bans that we have been getting.

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_Anatopism_ (11-27-2011),Arcapello (08-08-2012),_darkbloodwyvern_ (12-28-2011),_jason_ladouceur_ (11-28-2011),JLC (11-27-2011),_Kara_ (11-28-2011)

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## Maixx

The problem with regulations, is that there has to be a government body to set, and enforce the regulations or permits. In our current economical situation of bankrupt local and state governments, this is not going to happen. With every mistake or irresponsible action made by reptile keepers being exaggerated by the AR activists and the media we loose our rights. 
It's getting ugly, and not looking good for herp keepers, when its easiest for a bankrupt government to say "banned" over trying to set up a dept of whatever so we can keep our herps.

Venomous are by far the most dangerous to keep, even the best keepers can make a mistake. When they do, it hurts us all.

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## mr.spooky

i have to agree with *Denial*  on this... i persionaly dont think that anyone should be able to tell me what to do in my own house..  i dont know the numbers,, but im sure that more people die each year by livestock than they do by snakes.. and im not hearing nobody hollerin " shut down the rodeos".
   but the point that i was trying to get across is that it your going to keep these, you darn well better know the consiquences.... take coppers for example, when i had them, i knew how to handle them, and i knew what and what not to do,,,, i also knew that if i was to get bit,, chances were that i wasent going to die, or be disfigured... now,, getting back to the EDB,,, the times that i have found them, i have been field herping,, i was, and am confident that i know how to handle them,,, but i also know that the consiquences of getting bit are far greater. so the first time that i hooked one, was the first time that *i* realised what i was doing, and the real dangers..
   will i hook one again,,, hell yes.  but i am also mature enough to say that they make me a little more nervous than copperheads or cottonmouths.
  with age comes wisdom.. im not claming that im wise or anything,,,but i am claiming that im alot wiser now than when i was in my 20's..
 spooky

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## zeion97

> I understand where your coming from and do agree it "could" happen but if done right the chances are very slim. And the whole law thing I believe you should be 18 and show some type of knowledge and caging for the animal but other then that nothing should stop the private keeping of venomous snakes. Its easy for someone who has not kept these animals to imagine the dangers that come with them. And yes they are somewhat different then other snakes they can possibly kill you but when kept right theres really not that much of a difference. This is one reason the WHOLE exotic industry is so screwed with all these laws. Because we bicker inside the industry with what everyone else keeps. We cant get along enough with each other about what we want to keep so how the heck can we fight a government on what we can and can not keep? We have small snake keepers who could care less about big snake keepers and we have big snake keepers that could care less about venomous keepers. When in reality we should all care for everyone and try to make "reasonable" regulations preferably written by someone who has an idea of what they are talking about. Instead of out right bans that we have been getting.


You basically hit everything I meant. I wasn't trying to say we shouldn't own them and yes I apologize.  :Sad:  I should have worded my reply better. What I was leaning more towards was when kids or adult go out and by like a diamond back just Because it looks cool, then lets say something happens to them. The Reptile community gets blamed as whole and not one keeper who was not responsible. I apologize for my wording, I really do. And you also added more on to What I said. I seem to like to talk about Burmese a lot... but in Florida it's the same thing, with all the restrictions on large snakes Because of a few owners. (Please don't start a argument here about this...) and yes, I agree again, unless we all ban together and fight for our rights not alone, but as a community we have little to no chance to stop all the bans we receive. Again, I apologize. And I hope I don't start a fight for my mis-wording, all I was trying to say was it could happen.  :Smile:

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## zeion97

> i have to agree with *Denial*  on this... i persionaly dont think that anyone should be able to tell me what to do in my own house..  i dont know the numbers,, but im sure that more people die each year by livestock than they do by snakes.. and im not hearing nobody hollerin " shut down the rodeos".
>    but the point that i was trying to get across is that it your going to keep these, you darn well better know the consiquences.... take coppers for example, when i had them, i knew how to handle them, and i knew what and what not to do,,,, i also knew that if i was to get bit,, chances were that i wasent going to die, or be disfigured... now,, getting back to the EDB,,, the times that i have found them, i have been field herping,, i was, and am confident that i know how to handle them,,, but i also know that the consiquences of getting bit are far greater. so the first time that i hooked one, was the first time that *i* realised what i was doing, and the real dangers..
>    will i hook one again,,, hell yes.  but i am also mature enough to say that they make me a little more nervous than copperheads or cottonmouths.
>   with age comes wisdom.. im not claming that im wise or anything,,,but i am claiming that im alot wiser now than when i was in my 20's..
>  spooky


Again, I apologize, I should have chosen my words ALOT better. When I meant laws, I was meaning what Daniel said, not they should be banded or someone not allowed. It just seems like were allied to buy them without a word then when something happens it's the community's fault an not a keeper. It's just like the law in IL.. why should we be allowed to purchase Burns, reticulated or even rock pythons when they're illegal once they hit 15 feet. It's like someone says to a venomous keeper, "okay, you can keep this rattlesnake til it's mature, then you have to put it down or take it out of state" the Reptile community as a whole needs to be together, not just for rights on what once person wants, but for every keeper, big and small. A lot of us believe in the Same things, we just use different ways of expression so it seems like we're always at each others throat. (I'm using this analogy as a statement referring to one person. Wanting to keep balls, another RTB'S and even another hots, in the end though, they're al exotics and all reptiles, well most. Lol) again Iu apologize though.

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## Denial

As a community we have every chance to fight these bans. We are a strong community if we stand together. Remember hr 669? All those letters....But its the keepers that sit around thinking it will be ok because other keepers will fight that mess us up. We all need to fight and not just one and not just ones that are in our state. We need to fight them all together as a community. If that happened you would never see anything banned. Politicians are terrified of not getting your vote and the more keepers that speak out the bigger a difference that number looks to them.

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_babyknees_ (11-28-2011),Ezekiel285 (11-28-2011),JLC (11-28-2011),_Kara_ (11-28-2011),_zeion97_ (11-28-2011)

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## Wh00h0069

If I were going to own hots, I would first start with venomoids. I saw a couple venomoids in person while touring NERD's facility.

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## jason_ladouceur

> Venomous are by far the most dangerous to keep, even the best keepers can make a mistake. When they do, it hurts us all.


Dont kid yourself.  Although there of course a very real danger present with keeping Hots,  but giant constrictors can be as or more dangerous as any hot.  With the exception of just a handful of very large Hots a skilled keeper should be able to handle them safely without any assistance.  The same cannot be said of the giants,  I in fact have an old friend out west that kept a very large female retic.  He made a mistake with her a suffered a nasty bite followed by constriction.  Fortunately he had someone there as he should have to help him and they managed to get her off of him, but not before she cracked one of his ribs. I remember another case years ago where a keeper was distracted during feeding of a large retic and she got his hand instead of the rabbit.  He jerked his hand away resulting in his hand being almost completely de-gloved.  He of course required major reconstructive surgery and months of rehabilitation.

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_darkbloodwyvern_ (12-28-2011)

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## wilomn

> Dont kid yourself.  Although there of course a very real danger present with keeping Hots,  but giant constrictors can be as or more dangerous as any hot.  With the exception of just a handful of very large Hots a skilled keeper should be able to handle them safely without any assistance.  The same cannot be said of the giants,  I in fact have an old friend out west that kept a very large female retic.  He made a mistake with her a suffered a nasty bite followed by constriction.  Fortunately he had someone there as he should have to help him and they managed to get her off of him, but not before she cracked one of his ribs. I remember another case years ago where a keeper was distracted during feeding of a large retic and she got his hand instead of the rabbit.  He jerked his hand away resulting in his hand being almost completely de-gloved.  He of course required major reconstructive surgery and months of rehabilitation.


If he's that easily distracted it's probably a good thing he doesn't keep hots.

An animal who can kill you with a single bite, bringing death twice to your inattentive  pal, to me, is far more dangerous than one who may or may not feel like trying to eat me if I, me, not the snake, make a mistake.

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## jason_ladouceur

> If he's that easily distracted it's probably a good thing he doesn't keep hots.
> 
> An animal who can kill you with a single bite, bringing death twice to your inattentive  pal, to me, is far more dangerous than one who may or may not feel like trying to eat me if I, me, not the snake, make a mistake.


Just to  be clear these 2 incidents I mentioned happened to 2 separate keepers.  And although yes any Hot is capable of delivering a potentially deadly bite, very few have a 8 or 10 foot strike range and with the exception of a case of anaphylaxis to my knowledge there is no venomous animal capable of killing a human in a matter of minutes. And although any envenomation is a life threatening situation at least there is a potential treatment available for most Hot snake bites. To my knowledge there is no way to reverse the affects of constriction. I in no way intend to down play the risk surrounding keeping Hots, I just want to remind people that there are plenty of potential hazards attached to the keeping of many other types of reptiles that all too often are regarded as safe by the reptile community.

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## zeion97

> Just to  be clear these 2 incidents I mentioned happened to 2 separate keepers.  And although yes any Hot is capable of delivering a potentially deadly bite, very few have a 8 or 10 foot strike range and with the exception of a case of anaphylaxis to my knowledge there is no venomous animal capable of killing a human in a matter of minutes. And although any envenomation is a life threatening situation at least there is a potential treatment available for most Hot snake bites. To my knowledge there is no way to reverse the affects of constriction. I in no way intend to down play the risk surrounding keeping Hots, I just want to remind people that there are plenty of potential hazards attached to the keeping of many other types of reptiles that all too often are regarded as safe by the reptile community.


That's true, most Burmese and even RTB's that are docile get the "well they can't hurt a fly" when the truth is they can kill you, and it can happen.. every animal has its risk even cats or dogs. And yes, it's true venomous can be worked with alone, and large constrictors need multiple people to be worked with safely. And I will say, I have a more temperamental 5 foot male Burmese, and I never work with him alone. (Especially after been bit, and having my arm constricted) needless to say none of these animals should be "banded" just Because they're dangerous.. though on a lighter note... I don't believe a 8 year old kid who has no experience, and no one in there family has experience should own a large constrictor or Even a hot.

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## Wh00h0069

> That's true, most Burmese and even RTB's that are docile get the "well they can't hurt a fly" when the truth is they can kill you, and it can happen.. every animal has its risk even cats or dogs. And yes, it's true venomous can be worked with alone, and large constrictors need multiple people to be worked with safely. And I will say, I have a more temperamental 5 foot male Burmese, and I never work with him alone. (Especially after been bit, and having my arm constricted) needless to say none of these animals should be "banded" just Because they're dangerous.. though on a lighter note... I don't believe a 8 year old kid who has no experience, and no one in there family has experience should own a large constrictor or Even a hot.


None of my RTB's could kill me.

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## mr.spooky

just as a side note,,, i just read in the paper (here in south ga.) that some 22year old kid bought a momba from someone at an exit off the side of the road.  he got bit,, there,, at the side of the road... aparentaly he was rushed to the hospital and survived... im asuming that "venom 1"  (i think thats whats its called) flew the antivenin here from Fla... but thats just my asumption.... but im pretty sure that south Ga doesent keep momba antivenin on hand.
       what was the person/persons doing having these transactions on the side of the road,,, and why did the person even have it out?????   one more strike against hots because of 2 blackmarket peddlers..
 spooky

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## zeion97

> None of my RTB's could kill me.


....okay, and LARGE constrictor CAN kill someone. To say that a 8 or even 18 foot sake couldn't is negligence. Yes they are docile, yes it rarely happens. But it CAN. Just like a hot COULD bite. All to often do people with RTB's Burmese, reticulated even Anaconda's say "my snake is docile it won't hurt me" Because it could happen.... itself often that degree of "confidence" that results in a accident.

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## Anatopism

> ...and with the exception of a case of anaphylaxis to my knowledge there is no venomous animal capable of killing a human in a matter of minutes



Just a quick google search will show that there are a couple snakes that can kill in minutes if they hit the right spot, as well as the black mamba that can apparently potentially kill in 20 minutes or less. I didn't bother looking up how fast a blue ringed octopus or box jelly can kill, nor other species that are not snakes... but there are some wicked animals out there.

The point of what people are saying is not that large constrictors cannot be just as deadly if care is not taken to be safe, even if there are people out there who are complacent and ignorant enough to think so. The point is that hots are dangerous, and certain precautions should be taken. I can argue all day about how macaws can break fingers or cause irreversable damage... but that's not the focus of this thread. The focus is on hots/venomoids.

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## zeion97

> Just a quick google search will show that there are a couple snakes that can kill in minutes if they hit the right spot, as well as the black mamba that can apparently potentially kill in 20 minutes or less. I didn't bother looking up how fast a blue ringed octopus or box jelly can kill, nor other species that are not snakes... but there are some wicked animals out there.
> 
> The point of what people are saying is not that large constrictors cannot be just as deadly if care is not taken to be safe, even if there are people out there who are complacent and ignorant enough to think so. The point is that hots are dangerous, and certain precautions should be taken. I can argue all day about how macaws can break fingers or cause irreversable damage... but that's not the focus of this thread. The focus is on hots/venomoids.


True again, and i never stated how i feel about venomoid.. I myself think that it shouldn't be done. Not only is it wrong to do this to the animals, but it takes away the point of Hots. If someone wants to own a hot then they need to be aware of the irresponsibility of the venom that makes them hots.

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## jason_ladouceur

> Just a quick google search will show that there are a couple snakes that can kill in minutes if they hit the right spot, as well as the black mamba that can apparently potentially kill in 20 minutes or less. I didn't bother looking up how fast a blue ringed octopus or box jelly can kill, nor other species that are not snakes... but there are some wicked animals out there.
> 
> The point of what people are saying is not that large constrictors cannot be just as deadly if care is not taken to be safe, even if there are people out there who are complacent and ignorant enough to think so. The point is that hots are dangerous, and certain precautions should be taken. I can argue all day about how macaws can break fingers or cause irreversable damage... but that's not the focus of this thread. The focus is on hots/venomoids.


First I would like to say that I in no way intended to put this thread off topic, I in fact think its one of the most interesting threads Ive seen on BP.net in ages.  I was simply responding to an all to common comment about how Hots are the most dangerous reptiles one can keep.  Although without question dendroaspis polylepis venom is one of the fastest acting venom on the planet and I have heard anecdotal evidence of victims succumbing to their bites in under an hour I find it highly unlikely that they could kill an adult in 20 minutes.  Thats not to say it didnt happen,  I suppose if someone was unlucky enough to receive a dose intravenously that would greatly increase the rate they would be affected by the venom.  At least it did in a case study I read where a man was bitten by a crotalus horridus and the fang punctured an artery or vein (I cant remember which).  The victims symptoms advanced at many time the speed that you would expect from a timber bite.  But I would guess the patient in the case you mention probably died from anaphylactic shock.  Not knowing the details I couldnt say for sure of course but being that mamba venom is highly nerotoxic I would think that respiratory failure would be easily attributed to the venom by mistake.  In either case this would be an extreme example and in most cases in north America a victim of snake bite would have time to seek treatment.

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## Anatopism

> First I would like to say that I in no way intended to put this thread off topic, I in fact think its one of the most interesting threads Ive seen on BP.net in ages.  I was simply responding to an all to common comment about how Hots are the most dangerous reptiles one can keep.  Although without question dendroaspis polylepis venom is one of the fastest acting venom on the planet and I have heard anecdotal evidence of victims succumbing to their bites in under an hour I find it highly unlikely that they could kill an adult in 20 minutes.  Thats not to say it didnt happen,  I suppose if someone was unlucky enough to receive a dose intravenously that would greatly increase the rate they would be affected by the venom.  At least it did in a case study I read where a man was bitten by a crotalus horridus and the fang punctured an artery or vein (I cant remember which).  The victims symptoms advanced at many time the speed that you would expect from a timber bite.  But I would guess the patient in the case you mention probably died from anaphylactic shock.  Not knowing the details I couldnt say for sure of course but being that mamba venom is highly nerotoxic I would think that respiratory failure would be easily attributed to the venom by mistake.  In either case this would be an extreme example and in most cases in north America a victim of snake bite would have time to seek treatment.



I figured as much, and I apologize if I came across as too curt.. it happens sometimes when the touch screen on my phone decides that me pushing on the bottom right should be interpreted as clicking and making squiggles up in the top left. 

If I didn't know better I'd think my male hognose is the deadliest snake around... he sure does put up a great show of making himself look tough. As far as this thread goes, it is very interesting. It's made me want to learn more about hots. I've always wanted something like an eyelash viper, but I've had my eyes opened to more species that I'd never considered before. Either way, it wont happen until I have my own house with a room dedicated only to snakes. I don't currently trust my roommate not to walk up and go "Oh, this thing must be the hognose.. she said it was friendly!" and get killed.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## jason_ladouceur

> I figured as much, and I apologize if I came across as too curt.. it happens sometimes when the touch screen on my phone decides that me pushing on the bottom right should be interpreted as clicking and making squiggles up in the top left. 
> 
> If I didn't know better I'd think my male hognose is the deadliest snake around... he sure does put up a great show of making himself look tough. As far as this thread goes, it is very interesting. It's made me want to learn more about hots. I've always wanted something like an eyelash viper, but I've had my eyes opened to more species that I'd never considered before. Either way, it wont happen until I have my own house with a room dedicated only to snakes. I don't currently trust my roommate not to walk up and go "Oh, this thing must be the hognose.. she said it was friendly!" and get killed.


a dedicated room is a must for Hot's and every cage containing any hot must be clearly labeled as to what it contains and how many.  and most improtantly it MUST be locked. it's also a good idea to have a advised treatment protocol nest to the cage that can be taken with you to the E.R just in case.

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