# Colubrids > Hognose >  so i want to keep some hognoses.

## EdShal

after reading caresheets and all, still got a few questions.

will it be ok, if i use newspaper as bedding?
cause i got tons of them which i use for my corns, milks, king & ball pythons.

will it be ok, if i kept them in the same room/rack? after quarantine that is..
cause, im scared if the hoggies play dead and produce their defensive musk. i read their musk is horrible.

can a hoggie be feed on adult mice once they are bigger?
i went from page 1 to 10.. and i didnt find anyone feeding adult mice. most are either pinkies to fuzzies. and just mice. (dont know what size mice)

lastly, am i ready for a hognose?
i keep corn since 2005. milks, king in 2008. and started on ball pythons late of 2008. 
currently i keeping 7 corns. 2 milks. 1 king & 10 ball pythons.

hope you guys can advice me..

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## RedDevil

> after reading caresheets and all, still got a few questions.
> 
> will it be ok, if i use newspaper as bedding?
> cause i got tons of them which i use for my corns, milks, king & ball pythons.
> 
> will it be ok, if i kept them in the same room/rack? after quarantine that is..
> cause, im scared if the hoggies play dead and produce their defensive musk. i read their musk is horrible.
> 
> can a hoggie be feed on adult mice once they are bigger?
> ...


They like to burrow, but newspaper shouldn't be much of a problem. I haven't personally used it, but I've heard of others doing so successfully.

Same room wouldn't be an issue, and same rack could work depending on what the temps are set at. I keep my hatchling BP and Hogs in the same racks (seperate tubs, of course) with no problems.

As for the size mouse, that definately depends on the individual snake. Some don't get big enough for a large mouse, and some could easily take more than one.

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_EdShal_ (12-19-2009)

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## mainbutter

Others do use newspaper on occasion, but as it was stated they do like to burrow.  I'd rather keep them on a substrate they could burrow in personally, but it's not like they'll die or refuse to breed if you don't.

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## Aeries

I feed my hoggie rat hoppers. Captive hoggies rarely EVER play dead/musk (maybe a bit as babies). Hissing yes! xD 
I think you'd be fine with a hoggie, they're not much different than any other colubrid, as long as you don't take their bluffing seriously.

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_EdShal_ (12-19-2009)

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## EdShal

thanks all for your advice..

i'll upload them once I get them home.. ;o)

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## mainbutter

Can't wait for pics  :Very Happy: 

Are you picking up a pair?

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## EdShal

> Can't wait for pics 
> 
> Are you picking up a pair?


Hopefully it will arrive sooner.. but i think, it will arrive in the 1st week of 2010.

yes.. a pair. how did you ever know..  :Good Job:

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## EdShal

so i received the hoggies pair yesterday.
man they are cute.. both weighting 42-grams.
I place them in their individual tubs.
One of them, I think is in shed. Both of them were all around the tub, exploring. i place a few shredded newspaper.. just to make them feel more comfortable.
Strange thing.. i notice. a few hours after they settle in & this morning, the one in shed, dont want to use its hide, its in the open. the other one, is happily in his hide. Should i worry?
I also place a damp clean rag over the hog (the one in shed) to increase the humidity.

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## Gregg Madden

> I think you'd be fine with a hoggie, they're not much different than any other colubrid, as long as you don't take their bluffing seriously.


This seems to be a very common misconception... They are very different than most colubrids... They do well with higher temps and the differences do not stop there...

Also, and this is a big one, their bluffing should be taken seriously... They can and will bite... I have a few hogs that will readily bite... Mostly out of feed responce but I have 2 males in particular that will bite while being handled... The hognose snake can also inflict a pretty nasty bite... I have been bitten many times and have never had a reaction to their bite but not everyone is the same and you can have a pretty bad reaction to their venom... Yes in some circles they are considered a venomous species...

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## kitsunex

they aren't according to this:
http://www.toxinology.com/fusebox.cf...play&id=SN1531

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## Skiploder

Hognose venom is low in 3ftx (3 finger toxins) and rich in proteins.  Most colubrid venoms (and elapid venoms) are the opposite.  Hognose venom is medically insignificant.

Swelling, a little bit of pain and itching.  The longer you let them chew, the worse it can be.

Technically, they are venomous.  In reality, they are harmless.

Remember - technically a bearded dragon is also venomous.........

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## Gregg Madden

> Hognose venom is medically insignificant.
> 
> Swelling, a little bit of pain and itching.  The longer you let them chew, the worse it can be.
> 
> Technically, they are venomous.  In reality, they are harmless.


Again, a common misconception... And it also depends on what you consider harmless...

I can direct you to atleast 4 individual accounts where the effects of the bit were medically significant...

Trust me, I used to feel the same way but the reality of it is, is that you can have a bad reaction that points to envenoming, not an allergic reaction... 

In at least two of the documented accounts the person bitten suffered from some long lasting effects from the bite...

You may also want to contact Wolfgang Wuster and Bryan Grieg Fry about the venom of a hognose snake and its potential...

Here is a photo of a bite from a harmless hognose snake...

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## Skiploder

> Again, a common misconception... And it also depends on what you consider harmless...
> 
> I can direct you to atleast 4 individual accounts where the effects of the bit were medically significant...
> 
> Trust me, I used to feel the same way but the reality of it is, is that you can have a bad reaction that points to envenoming, not an allergic reaction... 
> 
> In at least two of the documented accounts the person bitten suffered from some long lasting effects from the bite...
> 
> You may also want to contact Wolfgang Wuster and Bryan Grieg Fry about the venom of a hognose snake and its potential...
> ...


Here's what Dr. Fry has to say on the subject:

http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...ight=heterodon

http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...ight=heterodon

http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...ight=heterodon

Where's the potential?

And if you can find the potential, the potential for what?  

The whole allergy thing is blown out of proportion when it comes to rear fanged snakes.

Are hognoses venomous?  Yes.

Is their venom medically significant?  According to one of the people you cited (Fry) - no.

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## Gregg Madden

> Here's what Dr. Fry has to say on the subject:
> 
> http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...ight=heterodon
> 
> http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...ight=heterodon
> 
> http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...ight=heterodon
> 
> Where's the potential?
> ...


Those are internet threads from 6 years ago... There was virually nothing known about hognose venom or the effects of the bite... The picture I posted is from a medical study book... 

Seriously, instead of trying to prove me wrong, look at the photo... Does that look mecially insignificant??? People can say they are harmless but the fact is, you can be one of the unlucky and have a very bad reaction to the venom that is not an allergic reaction... There have been plenty of reported cases of reactions way worse than just some mild swelling and itching... 

I have been bitten numerous times by my hogs and have not had even a slight reaction but this is how my body reacts...

I am a venomous keeper (Bitis and Atheris mostley) and it was hard for me to look at or consider hogs as venomous snakes species for a long time but the evidence kept coming to me and the facts are hard to ignor...

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## Skiploder

> Those are internet threads from 6 years ago... There was virually nothing known about hognose venom or the effects of the bite... The picture I posted is from a medical study book... 
> 
> Seriously, instead of trying to prove me wrong, look at the photo... Does that look mecially insignificant??? People can say they are harmless but the fact is, you can be one of the unlucky and have a very bad reaction to the venom that is not an allergic reaction... There have been plenty of reported cases of reactions way worse than just some mild swelling and itching... 
> 
> I have been bitten numerous times by my hogs and have not had even a slight reaction but this is how my body reacts...
> 
> I am a venomous keeper (Bitis and Atheris mostley) and it was hard for me to look at or consider hogs as venomous snakes species for a long time but the evidence kept coming to me and the facts are hard to ignor...


Let's clear the air here - the allergic reaction thing is something I never believed in.  Having an allergic reaction of any kind to something you've never been exposed to is like winning the lottery.  All of those reports regarding allergic reactions to hognose bites were envenomations - you and I are in agreement there.  I have stated as much in this thread - hognose snakes are venomous.

I've seen the pictures and I've read the accounts, most (if not all) of which were from bites that lasted well into the 3 to 5 minutes range.  I've been bitten by an adult female mexican hognose who I was able to get off in less than 60 seconds and got nothing.  I have also been chewed on by snakes that aren't in the least venomous and have had swelling.  I have a friend who got gnawed on by a _Boiga Blandingii_ and had severe effects - some neurological.  

Your photo isn't coming up on my computer.  I am a member on that site and did a search - are you talking about the post from 10/31/09?   I also am assuming you are also referring to the Toxicon article "Local envenoming by the Western hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus): A case report and review of medically significant Heterodon bites"?

If so I have it and just re-read it.  It seems that the summary clearly states that:

 "Although hognose snakes may *uncommonly* produce *medically significant* bites, they should not be considered dangerous or venomous."

So I'll concede - under the right circumstances, and in rare documented cases - a hognose can uncommonly produce a medically significant bite.

But that summary raised a point - although the article calls the cases outlined medically significant - it also states that they should not be considered dangerous or venomous.

Again - I guess it all depends on your perspective.   You and I both maintain they are venomous.  You and I both maintain that any symptoms displayed are not allergic reactions.  Where we differ is on what is medically significant.  Using the Toxicon article - I have to agree with you that  the bites are categorized as medically significant.  

However in the same breath, the article states that, even so, hognose snakes should not be considered either venomous or dangerous.

Did you read the full text of the paper, specifically the portion on hypersensitivity and other contributing factors?  If not, or if you need the full text of the a paper, shoot me a PM.  There are lots of interesting things there to discuss.

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## Skiploder

Just and add:

I have been bitten by non-venomous snakes and have had ecchymosis and edema - two of the outlined reactions that defined the medical significance of the hognose bite.  

I guess in that sense, my mexican lined pine is capable of producing a medically significant bite

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## Gregg Madden

I need to read more carefully... Now that I back read, and read your new post, I see you and I are pretty much on the same page...

I just figured the potential should at least noted...

Thanks for your input...

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## EdShal

and i wonder, what did i last ask/question??

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## Skiploder

> and i wonder, what did i last ask/question??


Are they western hognoses?

IF they are westerns, they really don't need extra humidity during shedding.

As for the one not using his hide - that alone is not a cause for worry.  As has been pointed out, they are burrowers and will often ignore a hide in preference for digging into the substrate.  Provide him with something deep enough to burrow in.

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_EdShal_ (01-17-2010)

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## Aeries

Beardie's too? How widespread is venom in lizards? Other than the gila, beaded and monitors?

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## Gregg Madden

Lizards like bearded dragons and monitors can not technically be cosidered venomous because of their complete lack of delivery system... Hognose snakes, although it is poor, do have a delivery system...

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## Skiploder

> Beardie's too? How widespread is venom in lizards? Other than the gila, beaded and monitors?


http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/...pogona&start=0

Read the whole thread and then read the paper:

http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/20...mate_venom.pdf

From these links you should be able to draw your own conclusions.

According to the authors, documented medically significant symptoms (from the venom) have occurred from varanid bites.

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_Aeries_ (01-19-2010)

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## zackw419

I really recommend giving them the option of burrowing. Don't use newspaper. I mean you can but its in their nature to burrow, allow them that small pleasure  :Wink: .

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_EdShal_ (01-18-2010)

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