# Site General > General Herp > Herp Broadcast >  News: 2 die in rock python attack

## Emmastaff

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...oa-attack.html

----------


## scooter11

Doesn't sound like have a clue what type of snake it was

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

----------


## Emmastaff

I know, my guess would be burm or rectic?

----------


## Emmastaff

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23583116

----------


## SnowShredder

Very, very sad. My condolences go out to the family. 
Strange that *two* boys were killed, I have a hard time seeing how that would happen

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

Well, there goes our pets.

----------


## Kodieh

Non poisonous. 

Shoot me. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## Stewart_Reptiles

I guesswork the press it´s lets forget about autopsy report but let´s just jump to conclusion instead.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Emmastaff

It does seem strange that two were killed. Very odd, seems like there has to be more to the story...

----------


## Herpenthusiast3

> I know, my guess would be burm or rectic?


http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2619837

I Think it may be an african rock python. :/
Either way the whole ordeal seems a little far fetched. There's probably so much more to this story but they are immediately going to criminalize the snake. If anything, the snakes keeper should be held responsible for being absent minded by  leaving the enclosure unlocked and or having an enclosure that doesn't suffice to house such a powerful animal. I still find the whole thing hard to believe. :/

----------

_alykoz_ (08-05-2013),_OctagonGecko729_ (08-06-2013),_sorraia_ (08-06-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## shadow240sx

The strangest thing is.. i heard this from someone who has nothing to do with snake community at all, and i feel like this is the last thing we need going on with everything that's happening already

http://globalnews.ca/news/762560/esc...new-brunswick/

----------


## Southern_Breeder

Wow  :Sad:

----------


## bcr229

I'll reserve judgement until the authorities complete their investigation.

----------


## Mephibosheth1

But we will never hear about that, now will we??

----------

_alykoz_ (08-05-2013),_Annarose15_ (08-05-2013),_Anya_ (08-05-2013),_Shadera_ (08-06-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

My theory is that the python was out cruising in the night and was just heavy enough that when it crawled on top of the boys, it might have accidentally suffocated them. A simialar case happened when an African rock python crawled into a toddler's crib and was just laying on top of them; not attacking them.
Of course, python = scary snake so let's smear it all over the news WITHIN HOURS of the first report before any autopsy.

I hate the other irrelevant notes on the bottom of the USA today page; saying they're everywhere in Florida and that AfRocks are all out vicious. Sounds like an HSUS grunt.

----------

_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Anya

Ulgh...poor little boys. My heart goes out to their parents. But there has to be more to this. I can't help but wonder if something far more intelligent strangled these boys, and is using the snake as a skapegoat.

----------

Badmonkey17 (08-08-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-05-2013),_sissysnakes_ (08-08-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013),_Vipera Berus_ (05-25-2017),wolfy-hound (08-06-2013)

----------


## sunn_maiden

What Kind Of Python! Burmese Is Way diff From A Ball!

Ps Sorry For The Caps. My Phone Does That Now. :/

----------


## MarkS

> Ulgh...poor little boys. My heart goes out to their parents. But there has to be more to this. I can't help but wonder if something far more intelligent strangled these boys, and is using the snake as a skapegoat.


Certainly wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

----------

_stoaob3_ (08-15-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

i call bull.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-05-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (08-06-2013),_Daybreaker_ (08-06-2013),DestinyLynette (08-05-2013),_Mike41793_ (08-06-2013),RockyGurly (08-07-2013),_sissysnakes_ (08-08-2013),_stoaob3_ (08-15-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## reptileexperts

First report was a boa... Next it was a python they corrected that statement that it was correct but wrong it was "an anaconda a type of python" ... Actual snake was an African Rock Python based on the last news report that went out. I really believe this entire thing is a fraud and a framed snake... Things do not add up at all. 

1) kids didnt scream? 
2) second kid waited around to die? 
3) umm you could get a report from the pet store but not an ID initially, really? 

That's just to start... 

Then again, this was in Canada... Eh?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

Badmonkey17 (08-08-2013),_OctagonGecko729_ (08-06-2013),_stoaob3_ (08-15-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Archimedes

I really, _really_ want to know what the coroner's report says. Have a feeling the marks will be much less snakey than the media wants to think.

----------


## Jonas@Balls2TheWall

> i call bull.


+1

----------


## DestinyLynette

okay this story sounds like bullcrap. 
What snake is big and heavy enough to kill a 5 / 7 year old and still fit through ventilation? Never have I heard of a "serial killer snake" that goes bed to bed killing but not eating and leaving the bodies untouched.

The whole thing sounds stupid. Something's not right here. They didn't even name a species. Probably due to the inconsistency. Would suck to name a burm or anaconda and people be like "really because those weigh this much and can't climb straight up through ventilation"

----------


## Pyrate81

...   :-/

----------


## rabernet

Wonder if it's a cover up for a double homicide...kinda like the kid in Florida. 

Sent from my Samsung Note II using Tapatalk 2

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (08-05-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (08-06-2013),_jbean7916_ (08-06-2013),_joebad976_ (08-05-2013),_Jyson_ (08-08-2013),_Mike41793_ (08-06-2013),_Quiet Tempest_ (08-07-2013),_Shadera_ (08-06-2013),_STjepkes_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## BlueMoonExotics

I think the story might have been a little more believable if it was only one child. I have my doubts that a snake would attack one child, find that it couldn't swallow it and then do the same thing to the other? That doesn't make much sense to me. The report says they were just strangled.... I don't know much about big snakes but I have a hard time believing that they just go around strangling everything in sight unless they have plans to try and eat it. Also, I think if I saw my friend being attacked (surely there was some kind of struggle) by a giant "monster" at that age, I probably would have ran screaming before it got me next..... just sayin. This story just doesn't seem quite right to me but I feel bad for those kids and their family.

----------


## CrystalRose

Something seems really fishy about all this. I'm hoping they will release the autopsy results but I won't hold my breath.

----------


## M&NSnakeDen

> Ulgh...poor little boys. My heart goes out to their parents. But there has to be more to this. I can't help but wonder if something far more intelligent strangled these boys, and is using the snake as a skapegoat.


Ditto to this.

----------


## towelie4365

My best guess: someone stole a huge snake from the pet store, strangled the kids, put the snake in the room with their bodies.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),_interloc_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Pythonfriend

there is one link that has videos in it, including an "interview" with the owner, which is most revealing.

http://globalnews.ca/news/762560/esc...new-brunswick/

i still have a hard time believing it. When constricting they only focus on one thing and nothing else. How can it be that it killed both?

Autopsy reports are not yet out there, this is important. Also no charges filed yet, which is also important.

But it was a snake (african rock python) that was never handled or let out, only moved into a box for cage cleaning and maintenance and then returned to the enclosure. Snakes that get handled a lot do not view humans as food and only tag humans sometimes (ram the teeth in and let go and retreat, no pulling no attempt at constricting). Snakes that get handled a lot only do the crazy bites if food smell confuses them, otherwise they would never do a bite followed by constriction.

Two boys dead, how come one didnt wake up in the mayhem? How come they didnt wake up when a giant african rock python came crashing down through the ceiling tiles into the room?

what we do not know is how the scene looked like. If its two boys in the beds dead, in their beds under their blankets, and a python elsewhere, then i dont see how it could be the python. If it was the python, there would be bite marks on both, significant signs of an unusual fight, blankets twisted, bodies apart from the blankets not under them. Humans, and children, do wake up quickly when oxygen supply to the brain is depleted rapidly and will struggle immediately. Maybe they only get a few seconds to struggle, but these few seconds together with the wrapping action of the snake would leave a very disordered scene.

so i still see two other ways:  Gas leak / chemical leak, killing the children and freaking out the snake, or murder covered up using the snake. Autopsy reports and more data on how the scene looked like will bring clarity. Bite marks on both bodies would be really, really bad.

----------


## Anya

Sigh. All just makes me sick.  :Sad:

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Poor kids!

I'm also calling complete and utter BS. Autopsies won't happen til Tuesday

----------


## liv

I heard about this earlier... absolutely tragic. 

It seems fishy to me too. I hope that whomever is responsible (snake owner or otherwise) is held accountable.

----------


## SquamishSerpents

As per NERDs latest Facebook status, a 3rd child was in the room...WTF!?!?!? That makes it even less likely 




> Ok, we need to be thoughtful and LOGICAL about the Python in the news that "possibly" was involved in the death of two children. I am now talking to people on the inside and learning some facts here. We MUST do damage control here and learn what happened before we sign on to any of this. Two children did in fact die and a snake was found in the room. Autopsies are occurring on Tuesday by coroner to see the EXACT cause of death. It was an African Rock Python.... 14' (let's guess that weighs 50 - 60 lbs). There were 3 children sleeping there when this happened. The two brothers died and the third child woke in the morning with no idea of what had happened. It appears possibly the ceiling caved in? Possibly the ceiling collapsed and was the cause of death. The African Rock was found in the room. When approached it was sluggish and NOT with the children. It was NOT attacking anyone. Well, I know pythons and this entire tale sounds WRONG. Pythons do not attack like this, they don't kill one yet along two people without resistance or alarm. They don't abandon their prey easily and will continue to struggle as they attempt to eat a meal that is too large. non of this makes sense to me. We need actual information that has not been turned out by the media. We need to use our EXPERTS and LOGIC to fight this situation and lend a voice of reason. EVERYONE, do not think for a minute a snake actually attacked and killed these two children without knowing way more. From what I am hearing on the inside it does not sound this way one bit!. We all need to assume INNOCENCE on the snake's behalf before any of us say people should not be keeping Pythons and such. They can say that WAY more about keeping dogs, more importantly LARGE BREEDS. We are working on this, we all need to do damage control and EDUCATE anyone that runs with these BOGUS FACTS. More to come.....

----------

4theSNAKElady (08-06-2013),_Aes_Sidhe_ (08-05-2013),_Annarose15_ (08-06-2013),_Anya_ (08-05-2013),_Daybreaker_ (08-06-2013),DestinyLynette (08-05-2013),_dkspftw_ (08-05-2013),_OctagonGecko729_ (08-06-2013),Pythonfriend (08-05-2013),_Quiet Tempest_ (08-07-2013),_satomi325_ (08-05-2013),_STjepkes_ (08-06-2013),wolfy-hound (08-06-2013)

----------


## dkspftw

Awful that people have died, but I also have a hard time believing this is possible.

All other obvious evidence aside, as a 7 year old, I honestly think I would have kicked that snake's ass. Or at least made a hell of a mess resisting. I mean, I would have been in little league by that time, and although that is one powerful predator, it hasn't evolved a means of defense against a weapon. What 7 year old boy doesn't have some kind of object designed for whacking other objects in their room? That's practically all I did at that age.

I realize I'm being a little ridiculous here, but I have a very hard time believing this situation could happen. Especially in such a way where somebody would walk into the room and initially think the kids are asleep. Simply no way that a kid wouldn't put up a LOT of struggle, by snake standards. They don't generally hunt prey with self-awareness and opposable thumbs.

Again, whatever happened to these kids was awful, but I can't imagine this snake angle is even possible.

Ed. Just read Squamish's post above. This makes it even less likely. The thing didn't even hiss? Not to mention the sound of a 60 lb animal dropping 10 feet seems like it'd wake you up.

----------

_Anya_ (08-05-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),Pythonfriend (08-05-2013),_Quiet Tempest_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## Pythonfriend

The scenario is getting a bit ridiculous by now, isnt it?

Worst case scenario, if the snake did it: 
2 boys, age 5 and 7, not too young to jump out of their beds and cause mayhem and scream and shout. And even if they get strangled by a snake they will wake up and have a few seconds to cause mayhem.

A really big snake comes crashing through the ceiling, breaking a ceiling tile, falls to the floor, noone wakes up. The snake approaches one, does a catch-bite, biting then pulling hard followed by strangling, which involves wrapping around the boy. The other one doesnt wake up, no scream, nothing. The snake rejects the prey item, or attempts to swallow and fails, then moves on to the second one, again, cath-bite, pulling in, strangling action. 

in the end both dead and the python is somewhere else.

Now with a third boy in the room, WTF?  its unreal even with two boys, age 5 and 7. What age was the surviving third boy? What i remember from when i was 5 was soldering electronic components out of old electronics for fun, climbing trees to insane altitudes, explaining to others that crystals dont just exist but have to grow, stuff like that, i would have put up a fight, no way for a python to kill me silently.


Really, the autopsy reports are the thing. I am convinced when both bodies have bite-marks consistent with the python.

----------


## Pythonfriend

> As per NERDs latest Facebook status, a 3rd child was in the room...WTF!?!?!? That makes it even less likely





> Ok, we need to be thoughtful and LOGICAL about the Python in the news  that "possibly" was involved in the death of two children. I am now  talking to people on the inside and learning some facts here. We MUST do  damage control here and learn what happened before we sign on to any of  this. Two children did in fact die and a snake was found in the room.  Autopsies are occurring on Tuesday by coroner to see the EXACT cause of  death. It was an African Rock Python.... 14' (let's guess that weighs 50  - 60 lbs). There were 3 children sleeping there when this happened. The  two brothers died and the third child woke in the morning with no idea  of what had happened. It appears possibly the ceiling caved in? Possibly  the ceiling collapsed and was the cause of death. The African Rock was  found in the room. When approached it was sluggish and NOT with the  children. It was NOT attacking anyone. Well, I know pythons and this  entire tale sounds WRONG. Pythons do not attack like this, they don't  kill one yet along two people without resistance or alarm. They don't  abandon their prey easily and will continue to struggle as they attempt  to eat a meal that is too large. non of this makes sense to me. We need  actual information that has not been turned out by the media. We need to  use our EXPERTS and LOGIC to fight this situation and lend a voice of  reason. EVERYONE, do not think for a minute a snake actually attacked  and killed these two children without knowing way more. From what I am  hearing on the inside it does not sound this way one bit!. We all need  to assume INNOCENCE on the snake's behalf before any of us say people  should not be keeping Pythons and such. They can say that WAY more about  keeping dogs, more importantly LARGE BREEDS. We are working on this, we  all need to do damage control and EDUCATE anyone that runs with these  BOGUS FACTS. More to come.....




OK now i guess we know what to do. Get real data. 

i put out two possible scenarios for YOU to DISPROVE:


- gas leak or chemical leak, killing the boys, freaking out the snake

- murder, using the snake as a cover


i really REALLY want to see if they find bite-marks consistent with the python on both bodies, or not. They bite hard for a pull-bite, pull in, strangle, kill, then attempt to swallow. Autopsy reports all the way, these are CRUCIAL. Also data on how the scene looked like upon arrival of owner / relatives / police.

----------


## Pythonfriend

accidental double-post

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Can the public in any way demand that this information is released?

This I am not sure of, but I want the full report, as I'm sure everybody in the reptile community does!

----------


## DestinyLynette

Wouldn't a gas / chemical leak kill the third boy?

Also, wouldn't a heavy snake like that break the bones of a five year old? Just a thought.

----------


## MootWorm

> Wouldn't a gas / chemical leak kill the third boy?
> 
> Also, wouldn't a heavy snake like that break the bones of a five year old? Just a thought.


Not if the third boy was much older, or if the younger boys had compromised immune systems. Also depends on where the gas/chemical leak originated from and where boy #3 was in proximity to it. A whole host of factors still need to be accounted for. Very sad and interesting case, I'll definitely be following.

----------


## bcr229

Oh sheesh, just had to field a call from the monster-in-law.  She's deathly afraid of snakes and just spent an hour on the phone pestering us to get rid of ours - never mind that the largest is a 6' BCI who is sweet as pie - because one of them might strangle my eight year old daughter in her sleep.   :Rage:

----------


## MsMissy

Any way you look at this it is a tragedy... If, in fact, this is what we are being told<doubtful>, this store owner is guilty of negligent homicide. I find it very difficult to believe, likely because I simply do not want to believe it. Snakes can kill and we all know it. 

The autopsy will tell us what we need to know, I don't know how Canada's laws work but a case this high profile will certainly call for the public to be made aware. That snake is probably dead by now.... A waste of a beautiful animal, but we do the same to pit bulls when they kill a child, much more common than this. 

Will United States politicians latch onto this as a way to try to limit the ownership of these animals? Possibly, but it would be a long fight.

----------


## AJs Snake House

Sounds to me like the the store owner strangled the two unrelated boys and covered it up with a bogus story...as his child was unharmed in another room...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## AJs Snake House

Autopsy will more than likely rule it as foul play...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## Pythonfriend

Lets put it this way:

Two boys, age 5 and 7, are dead. The suspect is a big african rock python. The suspect will be euthanized no matter what.

We are the defense. That one african rock python will die or maybe is already dead. But we still need to defend and find a way to argue and convince that the snake did NOT kill the two boys. If we fail to put up a defense, the judgement will be: Large constricting snakes can escape their enclosures and can then kill two boys, age 5 and 7, in their sleep. 

And there is no judge, and the jury is the populus, its a media war. We need to be smart and alert and better be one step ahead. And if anything else is to blame for these two deaths, we need to first find out, then prove it and make a case, then publicise it.

If we fail and this goes down in the historical record as one python escaping and killing two boys in their sleep, it would even get used as a precedent in Europe and even here in Europe, where things vary a great deal between nations, it will have an impact. The worst case they bring against constricting snakes is one case where a burm killed a baby. If this crap materializes, even in Europe all anti-snake people in politics will switch from the "a burm killed a baby" - story to the "a rock python killed two boys age 5 and 7" - story. 

This is so big, so tremendously huge, it might flatten the hobby. And dont think snake keepers outside the USA will be safe. The fallout from this might even hit the EU. So we need to be informed and smart and need to cooperate.


We need to be the defense for one african rock python currently "charged" with multiple homicide. And the prosecution is the media, and the defense also is the media. No real court here so far. I think its a "play dead and you are dead" situation. We need to unite, think hard, put together a defense, then approach the media, and fight the media battles, and then it moves on to legislative actions, and there will be more political fights. 

1st step: get informed, and DO NOT underestimate this.

----------

_Anya_ (08-05-2013),*bcr229* (08-06-2013),Centexsnakes (08-08-2013),_Quiet Tempest_ (08-07-2013),_SnowShredder_ (08-06-2013),_sorraia_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Pythonfriend

> Any way you look at this it is a tragedy... If, in fact, this is what we are being told<doubtful>, this store owner is guilty of negligent homicide. I find it very difficult to believe, likely because I simply do not want to believe it. Snakes can kill and we all know it. 
> 
> The autopsy will tell us what we need to know, I don't know how Canada's laws work but a case this high profile will certainly call for the public to be made aware. That snake is probably dead by now.... A waste of a beautiful animal, but we do the same to pit bulls when they kill a child, much more common than this. 
> 
> Will United States politicians latch onto this as a way to try to limit the ownership of these animals? Possibly, but it would be a long fight.


i do not believe this. I was able to put up a fight at age 5, even more so at age 7. If a big python comes crashing down through the ceiling, i would have woken up. Especially when my 7-year-old friend in the same room puts up a short but hard fight against a giant python, and a giant python goes into wrapping action. And then it would be minutes between the python strangling one and trying but failing to eat it and then attacking the other.

It makes no sense.

----------


## MarkS

A couple of things to remember.

The snake has ALREADY been convicted in the media.  

There has been no medical report as of yet so actual cause of death is not known. These things tend to take a long time to complete.  Much of the story will already be out of the media by the time the truth is known.

Once the actual cause of death is known, (and I'm betting that the snake will be exonerated) there will be NO followup reports in the media explaining that the snake was not at fault.

----------

Centexsnakes (08-08-2013),Pythonfriend (08-06-2013),_Shadera_ (08-06-2013),_sorraia_ (08-06-2013),_STjepkes_ (08-06-2013),wolfy-hound (08-06-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

I heard this on the radio on my way to work.  In Germany.  And my reaction was What the 'instert curse words here.'  All they said was two bous were killed by a python and that the house was a reptile store.  First thought check here.  Sure enough... I really hope it gets put out quick that the snake did not do it as seems obvious to everyone here.... But a good portion of damage is already done because of the media jumping to conclusions and reporting crap with no real information.  Sad.. For the kids and their family, and for snake owners world wide.  Media is just perpetuating the fear of the public.

----------

_Shadera_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## el8ch

Tragic that these little boys lost their lives, no matter how it happened.

Curious what the autopsy will reveal, a lot does not add up here. Then again "investigative" reporting on this story has been very lacking. A lot of buzz words being thrown around by the media and no real facts about what really took place.

----------


## Pythonfriend

> A couple of things to remember.
> 
> The snake has ALREADY been convicted in the media.  
> 
> There has been no medical report as of yet so actual cause of death is not known. These things tend to take a long time to complete.  Much of the story will already be out of the media by the time the truth is known.
> 
> Once the actual cause of death is known, (and I'm betting that the snake will be exonerated) there will be NO followup reports in the media explaining that the snake was not at fault.



ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.  But if we get the facts right and have the right arguments to fend off the nonsense, then we can score where it matters: in the legislative and judicial battles.

But of course media perception matters. Any experts here? Anyone here working for NBC or MSNBC or CBS or (*vomit*) fox? 

i dont know, just make us look not so bad in the media. There is an avalanche of very bad and nasty coming downhill on all keepers of constricting snakes, which includes ball pythons.

----------


## eatgoodfood

> ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.  But if we get the facts right and have the right arguments to fend off the nonsense, then we can score where it matters: in the legislative and judicial battles.
> 
> But of course media perception matters. Any experts here? Anyone here working for NBC or MSNBC or CBS or (*vomit*) fox? 
> 
> i dont know, just make us look not so bad in the media. There is an avalanche of very bad and nasty coming downhill on all keepers of constricting snakes, which includes ball pythons.


We share the same feelings on fox news... But its not just a problem for constrictors but all snakes, a snake is a snake to someone afraid of them or misinformed.  Its already next to impossible to own large snakes and venomous where I am.  Cant even have a BCC without a permit and thats not easy to get.  When stuff like this makes international news and countries start making laws, the whole world is watching and governments start to follow suit.

----------


## Banana

I completely agree with what everyone has said so far. What a horrible situation  :Sad:  I definitely agree that there is something very fishy going on here. But also I wonder where the adults in this situation were? It said the boys were sleeping at a friends house (perhaps the third boy), who I would like to assume had at least one parent. And as discussed earlier it would be virtually impossible for all of this to happen so silently that no one else was woken up. So why were the boys bodies not found until the morning? Were there no adults home at all? How terrifying. I hope more details come to light explaining this tragedy better, because right now it just appears to be an unlikely mess.

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Here is something interesting that was posted up on cornsnakes.com. The store owners name is John-Claude Savoie....

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/nb/news-no...-00134-eng.htm

Accused of sexual assault with a weapon, sexual assault, assault with a weapon, assault, uttering threats, and pointing a firearm

Could be a coincidence, however.

----------

_STjepkes_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

Unfortunately for your theory, there's no such thing as coincidence. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## SquamishSerpents

I just mean it could be a completely different person, with the same name.

However I'm not sure why but my first impression of the story, I just had a gut feeling that there would be something very sinister behind it, and sexual abuse was my first thought. Do not know why, but it was one of my first thoughts. 

I am patiently hoping the public gets to see this unfold

----------


## Kodieh

I know why, two young children at an apartment over a store in the wee hours of the morning. 

That spells more bad than it does good. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## eatgoodfood

Well if it does play out that way, everyone is just going to think all reptile owners are sickos and we will have fanatic religous groups protesting shows.. ok maybe not, bus still..

----------


## Kodieh

Snakes are the devil.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## Kodieh

Saw the story on yahoo just now, most commenters there are calling bs too. Glad to see the public isn't buying this either. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## eatgoodfood

Thats good.

----------


## rlditmars

Well they just reported it on Good Morning America which is nothing more than a long format, glorified Entertainment Tonight as far as journalism is concerned. They reported it was a rock python but then showed pictures of a boa, blood python, and linked it to the video of the albino burmese found in the Florida shed. Talk about piling on with an agenda. Damage done, mission accomplished.

The deaths are a tragedy. But I wonder if we will hear the true results of the autopsy unless it is murder? Then that is more sensational than a snake attack so they will have to run with it.

----------


## Annarose15

> Well they just reported it on Good Morning America which is nothing more than a long format, glorified Entertainment Tonight as far as journalism is concerned. They reported it was a rock python but then showed pictures of a boa, blood python, and linked it to the video of the albino burmese found in the Florida shed. Talk about piling on with an agenda. Damage done, mission accomplished.
> 
> The deaths are a tragedy. But I wonder if we will hear the true results of the autopsy unless it is murder? Then that is more sensational than a snake attack so they will have to run with it.


x2. The story was also broadcast on my morning XM station today, complete with criticism toward anyone who "keeps an animal in a cage" (oh, except for zoos, of course). I attempted to call in _before_ they even discussed it, but my comments weren't acknowledged on-air. Not surprised, just saddened.

----------


## Joe parker

I was wondering what everyone thought about the news of a python killing two children
Here's the link if u havnt seen it yet

- - - Updated - - -

http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2619837

----------


## Annarose15

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-in-Boa-Attack

----------


## David1991

This is horrible news for the reptile industry. If you go on CNN.com, there is a post from a female reporter and she states that she is confused by this whole mess and does not believe that a python would strangle two boys and not try to eat one of them. She said the whole story makes no sense. So hopefully the mass of people reading the article will agree with her because it does NOT make any sense. I personally believe it is a covered up murder.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Pythonfriend

we really need to ask for, and wait, and watch out for, two crucially important pieces of information.


- AUTOPSY REPORTS.  Bite marks consistent with the snake on both, yes or no? Cause of death consistent with strangulation or heart failure due to blood stream disruption? Or something else?

- CHARGES BEING FILED. The people that know most are the police officers investigating this right now. Investigations are secret, but as soon as charges are filed with prosecutors / state attorneys, it goes public. Will there be murder charges, or will there be charges consistent with a snake owner allowing a snake to escape, causing a freak accident? 

pieces of data i picked up from CNN: Royal canadian mounted police has forensics experts and major crime experts working on this case, and autopsy of both boys will be performed today, august 6, 2013. Also the police is in possession of the snake, which is still alive. 

So far the assertion that the snake did it is only based on what officers first believed when arriving at the scene. There is a complete investigation going on, but it seems like nothing leaked or got publicised about any results of that large scale investigation. 

The media is still cautious because everything is based on heresay originating from the initial police response.

----------


## Mike41793

If the snake fell through the ceiling how did the kids not wake up screaming? Even if it grabbed both kids and they were being strangled they didnt scream at all? My sister has given everyone a heart attack waking me up in the middle of the nite for the stupidest crap. If she can wake everyone up screaming because she can't find her stuffed animal Buttons, i think she'd be just fine waking us up over the killer snake. Shes 5, same age as the boys. 

I think this is a cover up for a double homicide as robin said. He had the perfect scape goat, use the snake that lived right down stairs. They REALLY better investigate this thoroughly and not just automatically write it off. They need to check the whole ventilation system bc if the dust isn't disturbed all the way through it then that kills that theory of how the snake got there. Also, the snake didn't eat them, just killed both? That's not how a snake works. It would wrapped one and killed him and eat him, then gone for the second. I just don't believe any of it.

----------

Pythonfriend (08-06-2013)

----------


## BFE Pets

good grief I live in a tiny town and its in the morning paper here! I call bs on the whole thing!

----------


## MarkS

> good grief I live in a tiny town and its in the morning paper here! I call bs on the whole thing!


Maybe write a commentary to that newpaper explaining why you think it's a bunch of baloney?

----------

_gsarchie_ (08-07-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013),_Quiet Tempest_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

I hate the media... yep a python killed two boys heres a picture of a boa and a corn snake... oh and by the way we have no real evidence as to what happened but were going to shove this fear mongering crap down your throats so you can be even more scares of snakes or somehow confirm your fears. I know everyone that thinks pythons eat kids is sitting there right now saying i told you so, better make more laws so these creepy people cant have them and their 50ft annacondapythonboa cant terrorize the neighborhood.

----------

*bcr229* (08-06-2013),Centexsnakes (08-08-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## sorraia

My dad told me about this on the phone yesterday. My first reaction was, "What? That's not right." and second reaction, "Now all snake keepers are going to get hell for this." It doesn't make any sense, and doesn't add up. 




> Once the actual cause of death is known, (and I'm betting that the snake will be exonerated) there will be NO followup reports in the media explaining that the snake was not at fault.


This. End. 
Reminds me of the Diane Whipple case in San Francisco. She was killed in her apartment by two dogs that attacked her. The media immediately called them pit bulls, it went nationwide. Pit bulls killed a woman in San Francisco. Then the truth came out. They weren't pit bulls, they were Presa Canarios (a mastiff breed). A small handful of reports gave the truth about the dogs' identity, and it was quickly swept under the rug and forgotten. I'm sure many people still think those dogs were pit bulls.
Probably will be the same thing here. When it is discovered the snake did not actually kill these boys, a handful of truthful media outlets will put out a short blurb about it, and then quickly sweep it under the rug. The rest of the media outlets won't even bother, just quickly move on to the next big story.





> x2. The story was also broadcast on my morning XM station today, complete with criticism toward anyone who "keeps an animal in a cage" (oh, except for zoos, of course). I attempted to call in _before_ they even discussed it, but my comments weren't acknowledged on-air. Not surprised, just saddened.


Anyone who keeps an animal in a cage eh? Hmm... That will include far more than just reptile keepers! Since rodents and rabbits are also kept in cages, as well as birds. Let's not forget. Oh yeah... even dogs are kept in cages! Does "cage" include fenced in pens or stalls? If so, then livestock keepers must be included in that. Typical media broadcast... opening their mouths without thinking.

----------

_minguss_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## 4theSNAKElady

What im hoping, and i feel bad for saying this,(no young boys should die)  is that it IS foul play and the person who did it was using the snake as a cover up. Now THAT would definately make news, and possibly cause the general public to question past "snake attacks", in hopes that snakes are considered less dangerous...that the idea that snakes deliberately go out and attack people, mainly children, is just plain crazy...which it is. 

sent from my incubator

----------


## Mephibosheth1

So this story is number 1 on the Yahoo main page, and according to the article, the preliminary investigation yields "evidence" that the snake did it.


This is complete bullcrap (pardon me....gets me angry), but everyone in the comments is posting "well, my python loving friends sure are misinformed about their pets".

I already have prepared my family as best I can for the realization that we will probably have to get rid of our snake when this story causes the NEPA amendments to be passed.

----------

_Anya_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## AnotherBallPun

My heart goes out to the family of the 2 boys, this is a tragedy. I think there's a few things we should take into consideration aside from who is responsible & if this afrock even "did it."

I think we should be speaking out against the owner & what we know for sure at this point.
1) African rock pythons ARE ILLEGAL in New Brunswick (3m rule in effect)
2) This facility was a "zoo" until it lost its accreditation a few years ago for poor husbandry.
3) There was an active petition in place by local hobbyists to have this store shut down (poor husbandry again)

We need to educate more people about our hobby. Many/most of us do not keep "giants" and the last thing we need is the whole hobby being painted with the same brush.

Page 2 of the Toronto Sun had the story this morning, with a pic of a ball python next to a pic of the store saying "a snake similar to the 'African python' as seen on reptile oceans website"

This keeper may be 'like us' but he isn't one of us. If for some strange reason the autopsies come back to show this animal was responsible we need to be a step ahead. 

We have to be smart about how this is viewed & we need to do some damage control. The first step, and something we can all do is always ensure you enclosures are secure & care for your animals properly...

----------


## Pythonfriend

one thing that makes me angry when i look at news reports uploaded to youtube....


They all fail to mention that the python crashed down through a ceiling tile!

a ceiling tile broke and 50 pounds of meat fell, together with ceiling tile debris, into the room.

The media just dropped it and only mentions the ventilation system.

The thing is, this is the one piece of information that REALLY DOES NOT FIT THE STORY. It calls it all into question. Everyone would ask: How the heck did two boys that age not wake up when a ceiling tile broke and 50 pounds of meat crashed onto the floor?

it calls the story into question, so what does the media do?  THEY DROP IT. THEY REPORT WITHOUT MENTIONING THIS. They drop this detail to make the story more consistent, more believable. They dont want to report inconsistent and self-contradicting stories, so they remove the inconsistency by erasing how the snake supposedly entered the room.

That really makes me angry.

----------


## norwegn113

> My heart goes out to the family of the 2 boys, this is a tragedy. I think there's a few things we should take into consideration aside from who is responsible & if this afrock even "did it."
> 
> I think we should be speaking out against the owner & what we know for sure at this point.
> 1) African rock pythons ARE ILLEGAL in New Brunswick (3m rule in effect)
> 2) This facility was a "zoo" until it lost its accreditation a few years ago for poor husbandry.
> 3) There was an active petition in place by local hobbyists to have this store shut down (poor husbandry again)
> 
> We need to educate more people about our hobby. Many/most of us do not keep "giants" and the last thing we need is the whole hobby being painted with the same brush.
> 
> ...


is it me or did they post a pic of a ball python? lol. the headline calls it a boa, the story says its a rock python and the pic shows a ball python! EXCELLENT investigative reporting!

----------


## Mike41793

Seriously can't NBC or CNN just invite me onto their show to explain why this sounds like BS? I wish there wasn't such a distance between the leaders and the people. One lunch with president obama and i bet i'd have him shooting down any of the stupid anti snake laws... I hate this country. Canada sucks too, btw.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),Centexsnakes (08-08-2013),_STjepkes_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## TJ_Burton

> Seriously can't NBC or CNN just invite me onto their show to explain why this sounds like BS? I wish there wasn't such a distance between the leaders and the people. One lunch with president obama and i bet i'd have him shooting down any of the stupid anti snake laws... I hate this country. Canada sucks too, btw.


The media is having a field day with misinformation.

----------


## Inarikins

> 


Notice the line under the photo? "A snake similar to an African python". I guess they're technically not wrong as a BP is a python from Africa... 

But how do you mistake this



for this



(Also, in case you're curious, that BP pic comes from a blog titled 'Dangerous Snakes'  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  )

Apparently, all snakes are the same now, and 'journalists' can't even be bothered to google properly. Even if you type in 'African Python' you get pics of Rock Pythons, though I don't really know if that's being caused by the poopstorm around this story or not.

----------


## eatgoodfood

Why does everything have to be entertaining, why does everything have to be sensational, why cant they just report FACTS, stop speculating, report on whats known, and let the people speculate among themselves and determine their own opinions until more FACTS are made available.  The medias influence on people is disgusting, people cant think for themselves anymore, what the media says is true and we must follow!   :Salute:   A world full of ignorance and idiocy.

----------


## norwegn113

> Why does everything have to be entertaining, why does everything have to be sensational, why cant they just report FACTS, stop speculating, report on whats known, and let the people speculate among themselves and determine their own opinions until more FACTS are made available.  The medias influence on people is disgusting, people cant think for themselves anymore, what the media says is true and we must follow!    A world full of ignorance and idiocy.


I have an answer to that ... its called ratings, and ratings  = $$$$$$$$$$$$ im old enough to remember when the news was just about the facts. Yes sometimes it was boring, but it was REAL. The only way this stuff is ever going to change is if the news is not run by the rating scale anymore, and they figure out a way to make news about news and not about who gets rich! $$$$ is going to kill this world! it has corrupted everything!!!!

----------


## mechnut450

I agree this sounds like total bs and some kind of cover up. I bet if they look closely there a lot more information and issues that leading up to this event. I wait until  the reports are out .

----------


## sorraia

> Why does everything have to be entertaining, why does everything have to be sensational, why cant they just report FACTS, stop speculating, report on whats known, and let the people speculate among themselves and determine their own opinions until more FACTS are made available. *The medias influence on people is disgusting, people cant think for themselves anymore, what the media says is true and we must follow!    A world full of ignorance and idiocy.*


Bolded my thoughts... pretty much. People can't think for themselves, and scarier yet, do not WANT to think for themselves. It is far easier to have someone else spoon feed you propaganda...

----------

_eatgoodfood_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## bcr229

> Notice the line under the photo? "A snake similar to an African python". I guess they're technically not wrong as a BP is a python from Africa... 
> 
> But how do you mistake this
> 
> 
> 
> for this


Easily, neither picture has anything in it to give the viewer an idea of the snake's overall size.  Putting the two snakes side by side in the same picture would tell a very different story, but that's not sensational and it doesn't sell.

Sadly, to most people a snake is a snake is a snake, and they don't have a clue with the differences between the boids, colubrids, and venomous species, never mind the difference between a rock python and a ball python.

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> A snake expert said it was possible that the python was spooked and simply clung to whatever it landed on.


That sounds, unfortunately, believable. That would explain why it didn't try to eat the kids, and could explain a lack of bite marks. 
The odds of the news media explaining this as a bizarre incident, such as a person being hit on the head by a meteor, though, is unlikely.

----------


## MarkS

> Notice the line under the photo? "A snake similar to an African python". I guess they're technically not wrong as a BP is a python from Africa... 
> 
> But how do you mistake this
> 
> 
> 
> for this
> 
> 
> ...



That's completely ridiculous, it's like putting a picture of a Pomeranian in a story about a dog attack.  The news media is made up of uneducated fools, that's the only logical explanation for their constantly 'getting it wrong'

----------


## Mike41793

> That's completely ridiculous, it's like putting a picture of a Pomeranian in a story about a dog attack.  The news media is made up of uneducated fools, that's the only logical explanation for their constantly 'getting it wrong'


I'm assuming you mean like a big dog attacking a person 

If a pomeranian attacked me wouldn't it be accurate to put a picture of one in the story?  :Confused:

----------


## MarkS

> I'm assuming you mean like a big dog attacking a person 
> 
> If a pomeranian attacked me wouldn't it be accurate to put a picture of one in the story?


Do you know anyone that would run a story about a Pomeranian attack?

I originally wrote pitbull attack, but I didn't want to unfairly single out any specific breed.

----------


## Jay2322

first off i want to say that my heart goes out this family and i will be keeping them in my thoughts.

ok...second of all i agree with what all you guys are saying in that the news reporters are doing a lousy job giving all the details on this incident, which is leading people to believe all these wild accusations and basically doing a job of crippling the herp society ....anyway i live a couple hours away from where all of this has happened, and i am to the point where i want to beat people away with a stick because they keep asking me all these questions like "why would you keep such an animal?", "aren't you scared that it might strangle you?", "why would this snake strangle the kids?","can they really get that big?"....etc.. the usually questions but with only more intensity. then the majority of these people have the audacity to tell me that i am wrong and they believe/fallow all the things they are saying on the news like a herd of sheep (i am utterly disappointed). i just wish the news was still about the facts and not about the ratings. but anyway i will keep holding on and continue to educate as many of these people as i can for the greater good of our herp society.

(sorry for the poor writing, i had to type this up fast as im at work)

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),DPBallPythons (08-07-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## bcr229

At least they are asking questions and trying to learn more; my mother-in-law jumped straight to "You have to get rid of all your snakes before one of them strangles your daughter in her sleep!" last night on the phone.

----------


## eatgoodfood

For those of you with facebook:  

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Urban...02915186391965

For those without:

"Update: The official word from RCMP according to Indian River Reptile Zoo curator Bry Loyst, is that teeth marks have been found on the children and the evening the event occurred they had been at a petting zoo or farm until 10:30pm. 

Stay tuned for another quick update show with details later today. 

(Photo of actual python from Ocean Reptiles owner Jean Claude's FB)"

-Urban Jungles Radio

If this proves to be true, its a black day for all of us.

----------


## reptileexperts

Hmm, have an interview to discuss african rock pythons with the media about this in a little bit. . . maybe I should've said no.

----------

DestinyLynette (08-06-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (08-06-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## MootWorm

> Hmm, have an interview to discuss african rock pythons with the media about this in a little bit. . . maybe I should've said no.


 I think an interview from an educated herper's perspective is definitely needed at this time. Good luck!! And please keep us posted on any status updates/response/link to interview!

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> Hmm, have an interview to discuss african rock pythons with the media about this in a little bit. . . maybe I should've said no.


Well hopefully you will get through to someone, regardless of what actually occurred, this is out of the norm, and people should know that, whether they choose to accept it is up to them, but maybe, just maybe someone will understand.

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## reptileexperts

Yeah, that's the only reason I agreed, it's better to keep ones oppinions out of the papers and medias hands. Which is why I will only be giving them facts about giants and living with giants, and information on attack histories if they ask specificaly. But I'm fairly certain the topic of the actual deaths will, and should, be avoided.

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> Yeah, that's the only reason I agreed, it's better to keep ones oppinions out of the papers and medias hands. Which is why I will only be giving them facts about giants and living with giants, and information on attack histories if they ask specificaly. But I'm fairly certain the topic of the actual deaths will, and should, be avoided.


Try not to say anything that will fuel the wrong fire.
And try to let everyone know that African rock pythons are already regulated in the US of A. Damage control, amigo.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
(Just so you know, I can't seem to find a place anywhere in Texas that has African Rock Pythons.)

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Mephibosheth1

Our hopes and futures rest on you

----------


## Jay2322

^^^ no pressure though

----------



----------


## Rickys_Reptiles

> Try not to say anything that will fuel the wrong fire.
> And try to let everyone know that African rock pythons are already regulated in the US of A. Damage control, amigo. 
> (Just so you know, I can't seem to find a place anywhere in Texas that has African Rock Pythons.)


Please keep the word "Regulations" out of it all together. The last thing we need in Canada is more regulations.

----------


## rlditmars

> Yeah, that's the only reason I agreed, it's better to keep ones oppinions out of the papers and medias hands. Which is why I will only be giving them facts about giants and living with giants, and information on attack histories if they ask specificaly. But I'm fairly certain the topic of the actual deaths will, and should, be avoided.


Choose your words very wisely and be wary of the power of editing. Remember they can cut and snip, and they are good at it. The media has an agenda today and it is not herp friendly. Best of luck.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> Our hopes and futures rest on you


It's not just him. It's all of us. We all have a responsibility to watch out and defend one-another if we hope to keep this hobby alive by educating as many people as possible. Events like this, unfortunately, are a huge setback, like a fire in a forest restoration project. However, we don't give up. We clean up and move on.
For example, on the 11th of August, I'm still taking Boots the Magic Ball Python to a child's birthday party. Hopefully, I'll get to motivate the next generation of reptile keepers. More members, and we have a stronger community. I just hope those kids grow up faster. lol

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Mephibosheth1

So, I know this isn't an "official" media outfit, but I there some way that we as a community (or the owners/admin) could put out an official statement on the matter, or something??

Im sure that USARK and other offical groups probably have, but if all us "independent" groups say something, it couldn't hurt...

----------

_Shadera_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Annarose15

> For those of you with facebook:  
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Urban...02915186391965
> 
> For those without:
> 
> "Update: The official word from RCMP according to Indian River Reptile Zoo curator Bry Loyst, is that teeth marks have been found on the children and the evening the event occurred *they had been at a petting zoo or farm until 10:30pm*. 
> 
> Stay tuned for another quick update show with details later today. 
> ...


Petting zoo _or_ farm? Until almost two hours after dark? Still smells. :Fishslap:

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

Yeah its all hearsay until there is an official statement.  But thats the best most recent news ive seen.

----------


## reptileexperts

Here is my exact statements in quotes from the interview that happened a lot quicker than expected - maybe so I wouldn't have time to brush up? Anyways I mentioned the facts in regards to the questions. If its misquoted here is the quote for everyone to see and when it releases tomorrow ill try and get a link to the online version. Cheers, 

"African Rock Pythons, Python sebae, are typically aggressive in wild caught individuals, or captive bred specimens who receive little to no handling. Not all specimens are like this though, many will calm over time if raised from a young snake with proper care and handling. 

African rocks were a fairly common sight in pet stores during the first decade of 2000, but have since become less kept. This is due to the fact that many wild caught imports were still being sold - which were aggressive - and the captive born hatchlings that were being sold were simply growing too large for most keepers who did not realize exactly what they were getting into. In current day - the US has added Python sebae to the injurious wildlife list of the Lacey act, effectively prohibiting it from interstate transportation, in or out. This also forbids the ability for these snakes to be brought into the states (no more wild caught species at least) but still allows direct exportation of animals out of the states to other countries (Germany, Japan, UK, etc). On top of the federal law that is in place, state laws also effect this with new laws going into place making it more difficult on keepers. Texas has a simple permit process which is essentially a registration fee. Ohio requires very strict insurance to be purchased as well as permits. Florida basically forbids them from ownership outside of snakes that were already owned prior to the laws being placed. Thus, pet store appeal has dropped to near nothing with the exception of specialized exotic shops.

African Rocks need large caging, experienced handlers (those who have at least dealt with large constrictors) and large food items. They are not something to be kept by everyone, but they are something that can be kept by a responsible keeper who knows exactly what they are getting into. As with most giant constrictors (Burmese, Reticulated Pythons, and Anacondas) African rocks exhibit a trait known as feeding aggression which essentially is a response for food when a cage is opened. While this aggression usually leaves the snake once it is out of the cage and realizes there is no food being given. It is a dangerous moment for the keeper who initially opens the enclosure. Enclosure for an African rock adult need to usually be custom made or custom ordered through a company who specializes in giant caging. A female will need at least a 6' by 3' floor space in her enclosure (most would argue at least an 8' by 3') and a male would also need at least a 4' by 3' (again, preferably 6' by 3'). These cages do not come cheap and will need to be able to handle a giant constrictor who can push their way through a weak side. Food for an adult will range from 3-8 pound rabbits, or a few adult chickens, or even pigs for some of the larger spectrum females. For safety concern, at least 2 people should also always be present when feeding, handling, cleaning, or in any way simply opening the cage to an adult African rock python. 

Again, African rocks from wild caught origin are known for their extremely aggressive behavior. These, much like their captive born counter parts, can and will calm with regular interactions between them and their keeper. A snake that is left in its cage with feeding being the only interaction it receives, will typically stay on the aggressive side. It is up to the keeper to raise a calm snake. Tame, African Rocks are just as docile as Burmese, and Reticulated Pythons. But it does take effort, just like any other giant species."



Cheers,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-06-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

Thats good information but I fear their going to hack it and only take the parts where you say aggressive and talk about the bans.....

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),DestinyLynette (08-06-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013),_Mike41793_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Mephibosheth1

Good stuff
Looks like you gave them good info

----------


## Rickys_Reptiles

I'm both nervous for and excited to hear the results of the autopsy. 

Arnt you??

----------

DestinyLynette (08-06-2013)

----------


## reptileexperts

> Thats good information but I fear their going to hack it and only take the parts where you say aggressive and talk about the bans.....


in the interview itself I was asked about their aggression more than anything else, then asked about issues with keeping them. It's the media, I could've said "No response" to the attitude questions, and made myself look bad, and then given them an assumption mark. It's lose, lose I'm afraid. We can only do our best to educate. 

Cheers

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-06-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Rickys_Reptiles

> in the interview itself I was asked about their aggression more than anything else, then asked about issues with keeping them. It's the media, I could've said "No response" to the attitude questions, and made myself look bad, and then given them an assumption mark. It's lose, lose I'm afraid. We can only do our best to educate. 
> 
> Cheers


You did well. I for one am proud of you  :Good Job:

----------

_reptileexperts_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## DestinyLynette

> You did well. I for one am proud of you



^ ditto! I admire you for keeping your cool. I struggle not to get tongue-tied, and I was just teaching 2nd graders about snakes  :Razz:  Cameras regarding a huge case? I'd be a sweaty, twitching wreck ha ha. You gave great information, I hope ALL of it goes through!

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

Unfortunately, this is what your interview will probably evolve into.




> "African Rock Pythons, Python sebae, are typically aggressive in wild caught individuals, or captive bred specimens who receive little to no handling." Said snake expert, Cody Conway.
> 
> "African [pythons] were a fairly common sight in pet stores during the first decade of 2000, but have since become less kept. This is due to the fact that many wild caught imports were still being sold - which were aggressive - and the [snakes] that were being sold were simply growing too large for most keepers who did not realize exactly what they were getting into. In current day - the US has added Python sebae to the injurious wildlife list of the Lacey act, effectively prohibiting it from interstate transportation, in or out. This also forbids the ability for these snakes to be brought into the states," he continued. African rock pythons, along with Burmese pythons, are known to be invasive in the state of Florida. Florida citizens became even more worried when fear sparked that hybrids of the two could become larger and more aggressive. "Florida basically forbids them from ownership outside of snakes that were already owned prior to the laws being placed."
> Recently, Ohio has passed stricter legislation after a man released exotic tigers, lions, and bears before killing himself.
> "Ohio requires very strict insurance to be purchased as well as permits."
> 
> "African Rocks need large caging, experienced handlers (those who have at least dealt with large constrictors) and large food items. They are not something to be kept by everyone," said Cody Conway. He went on to state "with most giant constrictors (Burmese, Reticulated Pythons, and Anacondas) African rocks exhibit a trait known as feeding aggression which essentially is a response for food when a cage is opened. It is a dangerous moment for the keeper" 
> Pythons are also known for their ability to take down large prey items. In the wild, these animals will typically eat small antelope. A Burmese python was found with a deer in its stomach. A photo of a Burmese python that exploded after eating swallowing an alligator has been posted on the internet.
> "Food for an adult will range from 3-8 pound rabbits, or a few adult chickens, or even pigs" he went on to say.
> ...


Who knew being a journalist could be so easy? Expose a few bad facts, make it scary, and then get rich from advertisement revenue.

----------

_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> in the interview itself I was asked about their aggression more than anything else, then asked about issues with keeping them. It's the media, I could've said "No response" to the attitude questions, and made myself look bad, and then given them an assumption mark. It's lose, lose I'm afraid. We can only do our best to educate. 
> 
> Cheers


In no way was I trying to downplay or make it bad what you said, I hope you did not take it that way.  I appreciate you for taking your time to try and educate.  I was just pointing out what I fear they might do.  We can always hope for the best!

----------


## DestinyLynette

Where will the autopsies be released? What site should we be watching?

----------


## Diamond Serpents

This is why I don't ever watch the news or read the paper and I stick to Cartoons and Comic books with my kids. 5 and 7 this just made me think of my two boys so I quit reading it after the age.


A whole life was ahead of them and it got robbed from them, my heart goes out to the two boys families.

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> Where will the autopsies be released? What site should we be watching?


They were released and they found bite marks.

----------


## CrystalRose

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who kept insisting I need to get rid of my snakes before they kill me in my sleep,or eat my dog. Yeah,ok. I found an article that has a picture of the two boys and talks about the "pet store/zoo" that owned the python. It said there was an online petition to shut the store down even before this incident because the animals were not being cared for. I feel for the family of those boys however they died they were way too young.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/05...-new-brunswick

----------


## hig

There are laws in Canada restricting exotic pets.  You must have a permit to have that kind of snake or any large snake (or a lion or tiger or bear oh my) in the province of NB.  The snake is question was not a pet, it was a zoo animal.  Why are kids allowed sleeping at a zoo?

----------

11anthony (08-06-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Rickys_Reptiles

> They were released and they found bite marks.


Anything else? Crushed bones? Internal bleeding? bruising?

----------


## jclaiborne

My son turns 5 this week, my heart goes out to the family.  That being said I agree with everyones posts, the owner should be the one held responsible, it was due to his improper care that this even happened.  :Mad:

----------


## Slitherous

Unfortunately, no matter what the facts turn out to be, we as reptile  keepers will be vilified by the general public in the end. It's yet  another example of a single irresponsible keeper doing something that  effects all of us. I just watched the uncle of the victims make a  statement on CNN, and he said they had been out to a farm with various  animals earlier during that day. Combine that with an ill-kept large  hungry snake and the smell of prey and the reports sound_ possibly _ plausible. But I wonder why someone didn't notice? Especially when the  snake supposedly "fell", (as quoted from CNN), from the ceiling vent and  then subsequently constricted the children. So many  questions.............was the snake feeding? Were there bite wounds on  the victims? Was the snake just laying there? I have kept large pythons,  and they begin to feed after constriction. If the snake wasn't  attempting to feed I wonder about a cover up for a more human-like  crime. This is a horrible tragedy whatever the cause, but I find it hard  to believe that even a large python could constrict two children at the  same time without any noise or commotion, (not saying it couldn't happen, just saying it sounds unlikely). Whatever the truth turns out  to be, the knee-jerk reaction will be negative towards ANY type of  python and those that keep them.


S

----------


## MrLang

I just don't know about all of this. One kid just hangs out there while the other gets killed? A kid that age is not TOTALLY useless... were they locked in the room or something?

Has anyone ever heard of a constrictor using constriction as a defensive behavior?

----------

_Mike41793_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Diamond Serpents

> My son turns 5 this week, my heart goes out to the family.  That being said I agree with everyones posts, the owner should be the one held responsible, it was due to his improper care that this even happened.


x2 I agree 100% and its people like him who are ruining it for responsible people with children. On the other hand it could have been a mistake with not locking the cage ect.... Regardless its a mistake that's taken the life of two lil dudes that you can never replace. That's something this guy is going to have to live with the rest of his life.

I have OCD when it comes to checking and closing cages sometimes I have to do it 3 or 4 times before I'm happy and can walk away.  :Surprised:

----------


## SquamishSerpents

> They were released and they found bite marks.


Says who, I cannot find it anywhere

----------

_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## jclaiborne

> x2 I agree 100% and its people like him who are ruining it for responsible people with children. On the other hand it could have been a mistake with not locking the cage ect.... Regardless its a mistake that's taken the life of two lil dudes that you can never replace. That's something this guy is going to have to live with the rest of his life.
> 
> I have OCD when it comes to checking and closing cages sometimes I have to do it 3 or 4 times before I'm happy and can walk away.


I go into OCD mode too!  I check my locks at least 3 times when I have opened the enclosure and I check the locks evertime I pass the cages.

----------


## Neal

I've heard so many variations of the story so I'm not going to even bother paying attention with it to be honest. I feel for the families of the two kids that were killed and may god rest their soul, but that's as far as I'm going to get into this discussion.

----------


## Maverick67

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ed-boys-world/

Well Nat Geo isn't helping 

"Two boys found strangled to death by an African rock python in New Brunswick, Canada, on Monday were victims of one of the world's most vicious snakes."

----------


## Mephibosheth1

Dang Nat Geo...I thought you were better than this...*facepalm*

----------


## CrystalRose

The discovery channel did an article too and they aren't helping much either. 

http://news.discovery.com/animals/pe...ids-130806.htm

----------


## John1982

> Has anyone ever heard of a constrictor using constriction as a defensive behavior?


Absolutely, they don't have limbs - they have teeth and coils to secure themselves and will readily use either when frightened. Imagine yourself falling from a large tree, you're going to be flailing around trying to grab anything you can to stop the fall. A snake is going to do the same thing with their given tools - teeth and coils. 

Very unfortunate event regardless of what the autopsy reveals. Whether it's found that the snake did indeed kill the boys or not, the blame should(obvious to competent keepers) fall on the man who owned the animal. My heart goes out to the family and friends of the 2 lost boys.

----------

_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## reptileexperts

> In no way was I trying to downplay or make it bad what you said, I hope you did not take it that way.  I appreciate you for taking your time to try and educate.  I was just pointing out what I fear they might do.  We can always hope for the best!


Yes, and it probably will happen that way. And if any questions get sourced back to me, I will happily send them the minutes from the interview in direct quotations, but yes. People will not take the time to track source information. . . sad world. Sad day. And bite marks should be compared with bite marks from known attacks, bite marks could've been post mortem . . .

----------


## reptileexperts

> Unfortunately, this is what your interview will probably evolve into.
> 
> 
> 
> Who knew being a journalist could be so easy? Expose a few bad facts, make it scary, and then get rich from advertisement revenue.


Yep, it's just about removing facts, using quotes, and making it say what you want it to. Unfortunately, with even nat geo claiming out that this is one of the most vicious snakes in the world, it's not helping the case at all.

----------


## Maverick67

I've seen multiple articles stating an autopsy of the snake will show what really happened. Also I found this one saying it was already euthanized. 
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...l-in-province/

----------


## crazypythonlady

It is just a sad day all around....there will be no winners here. It seems unlikely however that a snake of that size ( they are reporting it at 100lbs) would constrict and then leave behind its "prey" none the less two items. The media has reported the snake being a boa or a burm and now an African rock unfortunately this doesn't help our cause of stopping CatX it will only fuel it. We can only do damage control now..somehow. We as a group have to come together and continue to prove we are responsible owners and if in fact the snake in question did do this...we need to show it was a freak accident.

----------


## Slitherous

> The discovery channel did an article too and they aren't helping much either. 
> 
> http://news.discovery.com/animals/pe...ids-130806.htm


Actually I found the article to be relatively benign. They quoted a seemingly-experienced "expert" who raised many of the questions we are raising in this thread. It quoted him saying he found the circumstances of the case to be "unusual", (understatement).


S

----------


## MrLang

I just read the first few lines of that Discovery Channel article and had to stop.

"*extensive experience* with this type of snake, having *help care for one for some time in the past*."

'Mommy, mommy, I wanna be Lois Lane!!'
'Ok, let's pay an institution $100,000 to sell you some text books and pass you and then you can be Lois!'
'Look guys, I know how to tell people about things that happen, I went to SCHOOL for it. They taught me RHETORIC!!'
'You're hired!'


What... is... that...?!?!

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## norwegn113

OK so me and my wife just read an article where the media stated that the children were victims of a snake that went " on a snack attack!!!!" OMG! my take on this.... The guy that found these kids ( the dad ) killed these kids for what ever reason then worked out this elaborate plan to cover it up by some amazing snake escape gone horribly wrong! ) Im not buying that a 100 lb snake falls from the ceiling into the room of 2 sleeping kids ( btw wasnt this a sleep over? when I was a kid and had sleep overs we all slept in the same room in couch cushion and blanket forts. ) very convenient his son was safely in another room. These kids did not wake up before being attacked. noone heard 100 lbs falling through the ceiling?  the boys did not scream? snake attacks 2 kids at the same time without a single bite mark? any snake I have ever seen constrict has always bitten first! I fear this is one guy that is going to get away with murder! Yep I said it....call me heartless but my money is on the dad as the culprit. I call it as I see it! However this makes good news and is the perfect way for the governments to introduce more restrictions on our rights. this is the SandyHook of the snake world. No more guns...No more snakes!!!!!!

----------

David1991 (08-06-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## KingObeat

Urban Jungle Radio did a report about this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMXW...quSAX3r4kRv-MQ   What are the odds that this will make Canada ban or put more restrictions on large snakes?

----------


## Slitherous

Most "professional" zoologist comments I've seen in the news tend towards skepticism that the snake would, (_or could),_ do that, but the sensationalism from the media will be what does the damage. I agree, I can't see how a snake constricts two children with a third child present and no one notices til morning? It very well could be a coverup, but if not it is a very rare and isolated incident. I haven't heard a length on the snake, just that it was "100 lbs". A 15' python _that only_ weighs 100 lbs would be by definition a hungry snake, (a snake that long should be 150lbs +), so if you combine that with prey-smelling children I suppose it's possible, but definitely _not plausible_! I agree, there very well might be more to the story. Unfortunately all python species will be vilified as a result.

S

----------


## Snakeman

Yeah...what if the dad had actually something to do with their deaths and used the snake as a cover up? I guess if we find out the results we'll know.

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Please listen to the UJR interview before posting ANY more comments. 

There are still a few questions to be answered but as of now, it APPEARS that the very worst has happened.

----------


## Salamander Rising

> Do you know anyone that would run a story about a Pomeranian attack?
> 
> I originally wrote pitbull attack, but I didn't want to unfairly single out any specific breed.


Ask and ye shall receive

http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/anim...omeranian.html

And no, you never heard of that because it doesn't fit the narrative.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-06-2013),MarkS (08-06-2013)

----------


## Salamander Rising

> first off i want to say that my heart goes out this family and i will be keeping them in my thoughts.
> 
> ok...second of all i agree with what all you guys are saying in that the news reporters are doing a lousy job giving all the details on this incident, which is leading people to believe all these wild accusations and basically doing a job of crippling the herp society ....anyway i live a couple hours away from where all of this has happened, and i am to the point where i want to beat people away with a stick because they keep asking me all these questions like "why would you keep such an animal?", "aren't you scared that it might strangle you?", "why would this snake strangle the kids?","can they really get that big?"....etc.. the usually questions but with only more intensity. then the majority of these people have the audacity to tell me that i am wrong and they believe/fallow all the things they are saying on the news like a herd of sheep (i am utterly disappointed). i just wish the news was still about the facts and not about the ratings. but anyway i will keep holding on and continue to educate as many of these people as i can for the greater good of our herp society.
> 
> (sorry for the poor writing, i had to type this up fast as im at work)


Were he not dead, I would fear strangulation by David Carradine more than my snakes.

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Mephibosheth1

Sounds like it is confirmed then that it is the snake that killed the kids then??

Correlation does not imply causation.  The presence of bite marks is not conclusive enough IMHO to determine if the snake actually did kill the kids.

----------


## CrystalRose

This article is saying now that "officials" believe he had the snake in the apartment and not in the store downstairs.




> Though reports originally indicated that the snake slithered up from the Reptile Ocean pet store below, officials now believe that the snake was housed in the upstairs apartment.


http://www.upi.com/blog/2013/08/06/N...2061375832251/

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/snake-t...rcmp-1.1399386

----------


## Kodieh

Whoever gets away with this, is either the smartest or the luckiest person ever. And perhaps even a combination of both. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## Anya

> Urban Jungle Radio did a report about this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMXW...quSAX3r4kRv-MQ   What are the odds that this will make Canada ban or put more restrictions on large snakes?


Oh, god.  :Sad: 

No.

----------


## MarkS

> Ask and ye shall receive
> 
> http://www.igorilla.com/gorilla/anim...omeranian.html
> 
> And no, you never heard of that because it doesn't fit the narrative.


I am speechless.

----------


## Mephibosheth1

> Urban Jungle Radio did a report about this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMXW...quSAX3r4kRv-MQ   What are the odds that this will make Canada ban or put more restrictions on large snakes?



Didnt want to start yelling at my computer....could someone provide a summation of the report so I don't have to get quite as angry about this??

I listened to the first 2 minutes (?) and it did sound like they are attributing the bite marks with the Cause of Death??

----------


## MootWorm

I don't think we'll truly know cause of death until the autopsy is released. From what I gathered, the bite marks were what sealed the deal, but it has not been 100% confirmed. Not looking good either way :/

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Just listen to it like everybody else has to...It's a long video and a lot is said.

----------


## Anya

It'll make you more sad than angry. There's not a lot to get angry about, other than the negligence of the owner.

----------


## hig

Everyone vote!  No account required.

http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/community/poll-results

----------

_Anya_ (08-06-2013),_CrystalRose_ (08-06-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013),Pythonfriend (08-07-2013)

----------


## Slitherous

I listened to the entire interview and I am shocked and saddened. The interviewee said the police had already released the scene and that _there were_ bite marks on the children, so the authorities were absolutely sure the snake was the culprit. He named his source as an RCMP officer. I still am having a hard time imagining would could have happened, but so far it appears that what we all fear is true.

S

----------


## Mephibosheth1

> Everyone vote! No account required.
> 
> http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/community/poll-results



Done


Everyone do this; there are 401 people on here (guests and users included).  That's a lot of votes

- - - Updated - - -




> I listened to the entire interview and I am shocked and saddened. The interviewee said the police had already released the scene and that _there were_ bite marks on the children, so the authorities were absolutely sure the snake was the culprit. He named his source as an RCMP officer. I still am having a hard time imagining would could have happened, but so far it appears that what we all fear is true.
> 
> S




 :Puke:

----------

_Anya_ (08-06-2013),Pythonfriend (08-07-2013)

----------


## Slitherous

Done, I voted NO!

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## norwegn113

> Everyone vote!  No account required.
> 
> http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/community/poll-results


voted! No.

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013),Pythonfriend (08-07-2013)

----------


## CrystalRose

> Everyone vote!  No account required.
> 
> http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/community/poll-results


Done. I voted no.

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-06-2013)

----------


## Reinz

> It does seem strange that two were killed. Very odd, seems like there has to be more to the story...


Yeah, things just don't add up. 

So sad.

----------


## joebad976

This is really sad. 

I still don't believe it. Bite marks prove nothing to me. I want to see if the autopsy reveals that the boys show signs of death from the snake constricting them. 

What is to say it was not a homicide and the killer pried the snakes mouth open to place bite marks on the boys implicating the snake as the killer? It is also a far fetched conclusion but now a days anything is possible.

I want to hear from the third boy....He heard nothing? I don't believe it.

----------

_Daybreaker_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## MarkS

> Everyone vote!  No account required.
> 
> http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/community/poll-results


71% voting yes....   :Mad:  :Mad:  :Mad:  :Mad:

----------


## Raven01

Snakes in the province this occurred are only allowed to be those that get to a maximum of 3 metres.  This was a 4.5 metre snake, so it was already illegal (unsure the owner may have had an exemption allowing him to keep it).
So, clearly, a "ban" would not have even prevented this single tragedy(unless they figure out a way to ban "stupid" effectively).

I cannot imagine keeping any snake of this size in a building with small children and not having the animal in a locking cage, in a lockable room.  We can tell kids to not do some things but, that can just make it more attractive to some of them.
Then, if I have an escapee of this size, having more children over would not even enter my mind, the wife and kids would be at a hotel until either the animal or its' corpse was recovered.

There is already talk of an outright ban on *all pythons* (the tree-hugging ci-diots from groups along the lines of PETA are asking for an "all exotics ban", bye-bye to your gerbil junior) because you know those balls, woma's, children's and GTP are sooooo lethal even in the care of a moron(ignore the sarcasm if you are a mouse, rat or, ASF).
If it comes to pass we will spend millions on a stupid law that still won't fix stupidity and has only claimed 2 lives that I am aware of in my 40+ years, ignoring stuff like educating kids about water safety with that same money potentially saving easily 10,000 times as many young lives for the same cost over the same period.

That the owner was in the business just ticks me off even more.  This should be a no-brainer, being responsible and teaching responsibility ensures his livelihood, this..... well this just messes up every single one of his potential responsible customers.

/rant off

I may have to run that through "Talking Tom" and play it back until I cool down.

----------

_Anya_ (08-07-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-07-2013),Pythonfriend (08-06-2013),_SnowShredder_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## Pythonfriend

i voted, and i will keep voting every 24 hours until the poll closes.

(i have a variable IP adress that changes at least every 24 hours and the provider has a pool of tens of millions of IP adresses. Really. Pollsters from the USA often forget that.)


Also, i made a thread redirecting to this thread in General BPs, specifically about the impact it has on BPs, and mirrored the poll over there because it clearly would hit ball pythons.

*Should the City of Ottawa ban all exotic snakes? Yes or No, poll open.*

ottawa.ctvnews.ca/community/poll-results

VOTE. (currently: 71% for 29% against at 1533 votes)

one other thing: to better coordinate our response, and our anger and grief, maybe some temporary changes to the website could make sense. Like a banner redirecting to a page that links to the different threads about this and that contains some information. Maybe the forum section this thread is in needs a more prominent place, its currently a sub-forum not visible unless you click on "General Herp" first. Maybe this incident temporarily deserves its own subsection directly in "Site General". I dont know what exactly, a banner would make sense, but i think the structure of this forum can maybe help in focusing energy and providing structure for our response.

----------


## Slitherous

It;s gone down a little, it was 73% when I voted. Amazing how ignorant the general public is when it comes to herping.

S

----------


## Salamander Rising

> Sounds like it is confirmed then that it is the snake that killed the kids then??
> 
> Correlation does not imply causation.  The presence of bite marks is not conclusive enough IMHO to determine if the snake actually did kill the kids.


*If* I felt like it, I could go out right now, open a couple houses with hungry girls in them and get myself some really impressive bites.

_Or_, I could pull out a gentle, cowardly BP and pry his mouth open, guaranteeing a few accidental snags.

Then again, I could pry open a Boa's mouth and approximate "milking it", using my hand instead of a collection cup.

None of the above would constitute a real attack...but they'd look pretty good/bad.

This still just* reeks*.

I 'smell like animals' 24/7 by merit of having my dogs lounging over me all the time.

None of my snakes has ever mistaken me for supper.

----------


## norwegn113

So here is my question. .if they put an outright ban on exotics, what does that mean? Are those of us with snakes already grandfathered in for those snakes or do they just expect us to gather our babies up and deliver them to a location for a mass killing???

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

This is the worst thing to happen to the reptile hobby since the burm killed the little girl.
In fact, this is much worse.

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## Pythonfriend

> So here is my question. .if they put an outright ban on exotics, what does that mean? Are those of us with snakes already grandfathered in for those snakes or do they just expect us to gather our babies up and deliver them to a location for a mass killing???


right now its just a media poll that is still open, and it asks for a ban of all exotic snakes in Ottawa.


But now stuff like this could happen for real. And then it could mean anything. Worst case would be that there comes a law, and before the law goes into effect all snakes affected by it have to be evacuated outside of the area of influence of the law before it goes into effect. And when the law goes into effect all animals affected by the law in that jurisdiction turn illegal and/or get rounded up and euthanized. Maybe they even put some punishment on possession.

Really, it could be anything, in the USA some species can no longer be moved across state lines and are outlawed in some states, and it means breeders stop breeding them because they cannot move the snakes to potential customers.

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion...159/story.html
Get there like I did! Like my little "essay" at the bottom of the comment section too.  :Wink:

----------


## DestinyLynette

Oh I love the idiots commenting about how keeping exotics is for ego and vanity and not in the best interest of the animal.
I hope you still have that opinion when you see people with hamsters or fish or go to the zoo,

----------


## CrystalRose

Yeah it's all over. I was just on BHBs facebook page. They posted a "guess what snake this is" picture and someone commented underneath it with:




> I really don't care what kind of a snake it is.....a snake strangled two young boys in Canada last night. Should not be viewed as pets.


Probably only going to get worse.

----------


## Joe parker

They have already 'destroyed' it (there words not mine) 
So they didn't even wait till atrophy to kill it

----------


## hig

> http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion...159/story.html
> Get there like I did! Like my little "essay" at the bottom of the comment section too.


Good job, i would like it if i had facebook!

Everyone still needs to go to ottawa.ctvnews.ca/community/poll-results and vote.  

Quick Poll, August 6, 2013
Should the City of Ottawa ban all exotic snakes?
YES	1103	(70 %)
NO	477	(30 %)

Total number of votes: 1580

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

I honestly don't know why everyone on the internet is quick to blast away Fox News.
Greta had a segment tonight where she discussed the incident and in it, a man from the Columbus Zoo in Ohio was interviewed. Her first question, should giant pythons be kept as pets? He never said no and the media, for once, let him get away with it and explain it!  :Very Happy:  He went on to compare the numbers, stating that thousands of these animals are kept as pets, and, our continued favorite fact, comparing 10 deaths in 20 years to over 200 with dogs and how rare a snake-related death was. Albeit, he still mentioned how powerful they are, and how aggressive hungry snakes are. But that isn't a lie, isn't it? Maybe that isn't dissuading a lot of people watching it, because snakes are reincarnations of Satan anyway, (sarcasm) but hey, he was hell of a lot more accurate than other media outlets!  :Smile:  At least give Fox News credit for that one.

----------


## BrandiR

It seems that the most common theory is that the snake was used to cover the murder of these two boys or the snake killed these two boys.  If those are the two options, I hope the snake did it.

Regardless of whether the snake "did it" or not, everything else stands.  The snake isn't "responsible", shouldn't be killed, isn't an evil killing machine, etc. If the snake is in fact what killed the kids, the snake's keeper is responsible, not the snake.   I'd rather know that these boys each briefly awoke to find they were being constricted by a snake than to know they briefly awoke to find they were being strangled by an adult human being they trusted.  I'm a mother before I'm an animal lover.  The biggest tragedy here isn't the potential impact on the reptile world.  That's big, for sure, but it's not the worst thing here.

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> It seems that the most common theory is that the snake was used to cover the murder of these two boys or the snake killed these two boys.  If those are the two options, I hope the snake did it.
> 
> Regardless of whether the snake "did it" or not, everything else stands.  The snake isn't "responsible", shouldn't be killed, isn't an evil killing machine, etc. If the snake is in fact what killed the kids, the snake's keeper is responsible, not the snake.   I'd rather know that these boys each briefly awoke to find they were being constricted by a snake than to know they briefly awoke to find they were being strangled by an adult human being they trusted.  I'm a mother before I'm an animal lover.  The biggest tragedy here isn't the potential impact on the reptile world.  That's big, for sure, but it's not the worst thing here.


Well, the fact is, this has become one tragedy, and is evolving into another. The loss of life in the two young children, whom had a good life ahead of them, is horrible. That's bad for the kids not having a future, and the family who lost two wonderful ecstatic children is heartbreaking. And my deep condolences to them.
However, a new tragedy is on the horizon, with a saddening situation like this being manipulated for revenue by the media is at the expense of reptile lovers and owners. These poor kids lost their lives, unfortunately, but now thanks to money greedy hands and radical naturalist, thousands will be losing their livelihoods.

- - -  - - -

----------

_BrandiR_ (08-07-2013),_SnowShredder_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## BrandiR

> Well, the fact is, this has become one tragedy, and is evolving into another. The loss of life in the two young children, whom had a good life ahead of them, is horrible. That's bad for the kids not having a future, and the family who lost two wonderful ecstatic children is heartbreaking. And my deep condolences to them.
> 
> 
> - - -  - - -


I just wanted for this to be acknowledged and it didn't look like it was going to be, at least not to the degree it should have been.  I wanted to know that people give a crap about those kids as much as their snakes.  Nicely put.  Thank you.

----------


## SnowShredder

> So here is my question. .if they put an outright ban on exotics, what does that mean? Are those of us with snakes already grandfathered in for those snakes or do they just expect us to gather our babies up and deliver them to a location for a mass killing???



Look up pit bull BSL....I feel it would be the same thing. In certain places they gave 1 month to rehome your pit (elsewhere), and if you did not comply then they would come, take it, and euthanize it

----------


## Mike41793

> It seems that the most common theory is that the snake was used to cover the murder of these two boys or the snake killed these two boys.  If those are the two options, I hope the snake did it.
> 
> Regardless of whether the snake "did it" or not, everything else stands.  The snake isn't "responsible", shouldn't be killed, isn't an evil killing machine, etc. If the snake is in fact what killed the kids, the snake's keeper is responsible, not the snake.   I'd rather know that these boys each briefly awoke to find they were being constricted by a snake than to know they briefly awoke to find they were being strangled by an adult human being they trusted.  I'm a mother before I'm an animal lover.  The biggest tragedy here isn't the potential impact on the reptile world.  That's big, for sure, but it's not the worst thing here.


Is it sad that two kids died? Yes.

Am i more saddened over the impact it'll have on my hobby? Yes.

Kids die all the time from all sorts of causes. Casey Anthony killed her kid without any snakes and she got away with it. I really think this guy did it and he sucks for dragging down our hobby with it.

----------

DestinyLynette (08-07-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (08-07-2013),_STjepkes_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> Is it sad that two kids died? Yes.
> 
> Am i more saddened over the impact it'll have on my hobby? Yes.
> 
> Kids die all the time from all sorts of causes. Casey Anthony killed her kid without any snakes and she got away with it. I really think this guy did it and he sucks for dragging down our hobby with it.


Im going to have to agree with mike on this.  Do I think its sad that these kids died, yes, but there is nothing we can do about that.  Its like the mom a few months ago who went crazy and drove the wrong way on the autobahn and killed herself and her kids.  Sad yea, why arnt we banning cars and autobahns??? Because people die and kids die every day on the streets.  No one thinks twice about it, it doesnt make international news.  Kids shoot eachother in the inner cities, teenagers overdose on drugs, kids drown in swimming pools, kids and people die every day probably every minute or more and no one thinks twice about it.  Two kids die in a tragic accident involving a snake, which im still skeptical of, and everyone wants to jump in and start taking peoples rights away.  Its not right and its not ok.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),_Shadera_ (08-07-2013),_STjepkes_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Mr Oni

Swimming pools....everyday living in AZ some kids drowned....every...single...day.

It is horrible and by no means do I have no ache in my heart for such a sad event but swooping down and already starting this "should we ban" BS is stupid.

Today is 'jungle week' at my youngests school. 
I recieved permission so I am bringing my homie Tank with me to show these little kids and teachers that there is no reason to fear.
I encourage everyone to spread the factual info and love.

----------

_Archimedes_ (08-07-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),_CrystalRose_ (08-07-2013),_OctagonGecko729_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## BrandiR

I didn't say that snakes should be banned over this.  In fact, I specifically said that the specific owner of that specific snake should be held responsible and no one else, snake included.  Just because I didn't add one more, "This is crap!  The snake didn't do it!" to the previous 17 pages of, "This is crap!  The snake didn't do it!" that doesn't mean that I don't agree with everything that's been said.  I just think that loss of life, especially the lives of children trumps loss of....well, anything else. 

It's evident from reports of how he kept his animals and his past problems that this guy owning potentially dangerous animals was an accident waiting to happen.  I think it's pretty ridiculous that anyone would look at this case and not be able to see that.  Again- I am not advocating for a reptile ban.  I'm simply advocating for a little compassion for the two little boys that are dead, regardless of how they died.

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## grcforce327

The snake hit 66 2/3%!

----------


## bcr229

> I didn't say that snakes should be banned over this. In fact, I specifically said that the specific owner of that specific snake should be held responsible and no one else, snake included.


And in a rational world that is exactly what would happen, but the average non-herper isn't all that rational about snakes.  My understanding is that this snake was already being kept illegally and it has been euthanized, so it has also paid the price for its owner's stupidity and irresponsibility.

----------


## Kodieh

They're playing close to the vest on the autopsy reports. One would think that if it fits the theory, then they'd blab it to the world the second it was confirmed. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## jclaiborne

http://video.foxnews.com/v/258923795...=1821663211001

Foxnews.com put out this 2 minute video this morning stating that the owner called the snake "vicious" and that he wanted it put down.  If you watch half way through the video they show a picture of the boys and say "this snake, nearly 14ft long" the screen splits and they show images of a BP and a small clip of a BP being held as they reference the Rock python...Fail.

----------


## Archimedes

I'm really trying to reserve judgement about this entire case until more conclusive evidence is brought forward, but right now, I wouldn't put this keeper below anything. He sounds like he needs to be brought in and questioned, if you ask me.

----------


## Pythonfriend

forget fox, just ignore it.....


while other mainstream media often gets things wrong, or fails to research properly, fox deliberately distorts the truth and disinforms people.

its the only news channel where viewers are less informed about issues than people that do not watch any news at all.

EDIT: and yes, im still waiting for autopsy reports / files being charged / results from the investigation. It looks very bad, but at the same time its not yet solid.

----------


## sorraia

I just wish there were an easy way to get the general public to understand not all snakes are the same. The arguments I'm seeing the most as a result of this are:
- Snakes aren't domesticated and shouldn't be kept as "pets"
- Snakes are killers and dangerous and shouldn't be kept in captivity
- Snakes are wild animals and shouldn't be kept in captivity
- Snakes can't be properly provided for and therefore shouldn't be kept in captivity
- Most people can't properly care for a snake, therefore no one should keep snakes
- Snakes eat live animals, which are cruelly kept and bred, and therefore it is cruel to keep snakes in captivity
- Snakes don't have affection for people, therefore aren't "pets"
- Snakes become invasive species that eat native wildlife in threatened habitat, therefore no snakes should be kept in captivity any where

There might be a few more, but those are the big ones. It isn't hard to refute any of those, but people who are blind and deaf won't listen or see reason, nor will the see or hear the fallacies in their own arguments.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),_Shadera_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## jclaiborne

> I just wish there were an easy way to get the general public to understand not all snakes are the same. The arguments I'm seeing the most as a result of this are:
> - Snakes aren't domesticated and shouldn't be kept as "pets"
> - Snakes are killers and dangerous and shouldn't be kept in captivity
> - Snakes are wild animals and shouldn't be kept in captivity
> - Snakes can't be properly provided for and therefore shouldn't be kept in captivity
> - Most people can't properly care for a snake, therefore no one should keep snakes
> - Snakes eat live animals, which are cruelly kept and bred, and therefore it is cruel to keep snakes in captivity
> - Snakes don't have affection for people, therefore aren't "pets"
> - Snakes become invasive species that eat native wildlife in threatened habitat, therefore no snakes should be kept in captivity any where
> ...



On this topic of general public ignorance, one of my co-workers just came up and asked me if I was getting rid of my snakes now, I calmly asked why.  Their response was "well you have a 5 year old and you have two killing machines in your house, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night."  I have a corn and a baby BP hardly what comes to mind when I hear "killing Machine"  I tried explaining that a ball python and corn are not even in the same category as a rock python, but their response (not sure why it suprised me) was "a snake is a snake is a snake".  Trying to get them to understand I said "well do you own any dogs?"  They have a pug, so I asked "people die every year from dog attacks, shouldnt you get rid of your pug?"  I thought that logic made perfect sense, apparently I was wrong.  They got frustrated, told me I "am not making any sense because dogs don't intentionally hurt people, and Ill never understand"....they then walked off.  WHAT!?

----------


## eatgoodfood

> On this topic of general public ignorance, one of my co-workers just came up and asked me if I was getting rid of my snakes now, I calmly asked why.  Their response was "well you have a 5 year old and you have two killing machines in your house, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night."  I have a corn and a baby BP hardly what comes to mind when I hear "killing Machine"  I tried explaining that a ball python and corn are not even in the same category as a rock python, but their response (not sure why it suprised me) was "a snake is a snake is a snake".  Trying to get them to understand I said "well do you own any dogs?"  They have a pug, so I asked "people die every year from dog attacks, shouldnt you get rid of your pug?"  I thought that logic made perfect sense, apparently I was wrong.  They got frustrated, told me I "am not making any sense because dogs don't intentionally hurt people, and Ill never understand"....they then walked off.  WHAT!?


It would have taken everything in me not to punch that person in the face and tell them I hope they never reproduce as I spit in their face and walk away.....  I mean yea... I would never really do that, but thats what goes through my head and how frustrated I get.

----------

_minguss_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## jclaiborne

> It would have taken everything in me not to punch that person in the face and tell them I hope they never reproduce as I spit in their face and walk away..... I mean yea... I would never really do that, but thats what goes through my head and how frustrated I get.


Hahah ya it was pretty frustrating, but I figured maybe this would have been a chance to educate someone...I figured wong :Wag of the finger:

----------


## sorraia

> On this topic of general public ignorance, one of my co-workers just came up and asked me if I was getting rid of my snakes now, I calmly asked why.  Their response was "well you have a 5 year old and you have two killing machines in your house, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night."  I have a corn and a baby BP hardly what comes to mind when I hear "killing Machine"  I tried explaining that a ball python and corn are not even in the same category as a rock python, but their response (not sure why it suprised me) was "a snake is a snake is a snake". Trying to get them to understand I said "well do you own any dogs?"  They have a pug, so I asked "people die every year from dog attacks, shouldnt you get rid of your pug?"  I thought that logic made perfect sense, apparently I was wrong.  They got frustrated, told me I "am not making any sense because dogs don't intentionally hurt people, and Ill never understand"....they then walked off.  WHAT!?


*face palm*

That's exactly the kind of ignorance that is the loudest to scream and the hardest to fight. And you know what? Small dog breed compared to smaller docile snake and a large dog breed compared to a larger snake species isn't even a good comparison! Small dogs are known for biting and bad attitudes. Many a vet tech and shelter worker I've talked to have said they've been bitten far more often by small dogs than large dogs. The only reason you don't hear about it is because their bites don't do as much damage as a larger dog (usually). Compared to a docile ball python that would bite once in a blue moon, if even that often, a small dog is like Freddy Krueger!

And to say dogs don' intentionally hurt people is idiocy at its best. Most well trained, properly socialized, and well cared for dogs may not intentionally hurt someone, but there are plenty of poorly cared for, untrained, unsocialized dogs out there who WOULD bite! Personally... when I am out in my monitoring areas, working as a biologist, I would much rather come across a snake (even a venomous rattlesnake!) than a loose dog... The snakes at least try to avoid me. A couple of the dogs I've come across have actually growled at me, and some have even made like they were going to attack. I carry my Taser in case I come across a hostile human, but I carry my pepper spray in case of dog.

----------


## RockyGurly

This all just seems RIDICULOUSLY fishy. Teeth marks? Did the the python go have a nibble and then slither away? And there's no way they got bit without being eaten silently. And the third boy just sat around and watched?
Even if they were smothered, there's still the collapsing ceiling... 
It all just seems like a bunch of people automatically pointing their fingers at the snake because they're "scary" animals. I really hope the snake is still kickin' and will be moved in with someone who can actually take care of it properly. 

Even with all this, my grandparents are still begging my dad to forbid snakes in the house. Pffff.

----------

_eatgoodfood_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## OctagonGecko729

> On this topic of general public ignorance, one of my co-workers just came up and asked me if I was getting rid of my snakes now, I calmly asked why. Their response was "well you have a 5 year old and you have two killing machines in your house, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night." I have a corn and a baby BP hardly what comes to mind when I hear "killing Machine" I tried explaining that a ball python and corn are not even in the same category as a rock python, but their response (not sure why it suprised me) was "a snake is a snake is a snake". Trying to get them to understand I said "well do you own any dogs?" They have a pug, so I asked "people die every year from dog attacks, shouldnt you get rid of your pug?" I thought that logic made perfect sense, apparently I was wrong. They got frustrated, told me I "am not making any sense because dogs don't intentionally hurt people, and Ill never understand"....they then walked off. WHAT!?


Tell them they should worry less about your pets if they care about your kids then they should condemn you for keeping household cleaners first. Afterall we want to address the most deadly things first. http://www.poison.org/stats/

Damn that Mr. Clean, Damn him.  :Wag of the finger:

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),_sorraia_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## el8ch

An updated link from Canadian news source CBC
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...oys-vigil.html

Questions raised about exotic pet laws
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...ws-canada.html

----------


## OctagonGecko729

Or you could point out that they should start lobbying the supreme court to make all swimming pools illegal, including public ones. http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreation...factsheet.html

Or maybe they should ban bathtubs. http://www.tomkileylaw.com/library/c...achusetts.html

Hell, lets just ban water.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (08-07-2013),_Mike41793_ (08-07-2013),Pickenprod (08-07-2013),RockyGurly (08-07-2013),_sorraia_ (08-07-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## el8ch

> Hell, lets just ban water.


Yeah, this incident has started a storm of fear mongering and mis-information.

The vast majority of people commenting on exotic animals and bans don't realize that the bird they love, the 'domestic' dog they own or the plants they adore are actually all ... wait for it .... EXOTIC.

----------

_sorraia_ (08-07-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## sorraia

> Yeah, this incident has started a storm of fear mongering and mis-information.
> 
> The vast majority of people commenting on exotic animals and bans don't realize that the bird they love, the 'domestic' dog they own or the plants they adore are actually all ... wait for it .... EXOTIC.


I made a comment about that on one article, and got called stupid for it!  :ROFL: 
I'm a biologist... "exotic", "invasive", and "native" are a very large part of my professional vocabulary.

----------

_el8ch_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## DestinyLynette

Official cause of death; asphyxiation:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/n-b-boy...opsy-1.1400815

----------


## DestinyLynette

Also for those of us here in the US:
http://www.humanesociety.org/news/pr...de-080713.html

Of course the HS is jumping on this....

----------


## wilomn

There is something that all of you need to remember when people question the intelligence of keeping snakes. 

YOU don't have to be the Reptile Ambassador to the world. It is OK to say NOTHING. It is OK to tell them that while they are woefully ignorant of the facts, you hold no personal animosity for their willful ignorance. It is OK for you to simply shake your head and walk away. 

Sometimes it's the best thing you can do, be silent and leave, especially if you're a hothead. After all, any one of us is seen to represent ALL of us and frankly, there are a LOT of folks who have snakes that I wish either didn't, or simply keep the fact that they did, to themselves.

It's OK to just let it go when you know what the outcome will be, especially when you know the person making foolish statements has NO desire to know the truth.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),_Emilio_ (08-07-2013),MarkS (08-07-2013),rabernet (08-07-2013),_rlditmars_ (08-07-2013),_Shadera_ (08-07-2013),Skiploder (08-07-2013),_sorraia_ (08-07-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (08-07-2013),_STjepkes_ (08-08-2013),tlich (08-07-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

Well said wilomn. Just like i'll NEVER understand those crazy cat people... Why do they do it...? The world may never know...

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),_TerrieL_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## bcr229

> Also for those of us here in the US:
> http://www.humanesociety.org/news/pr...de-080713.html
> 
> Of course the HS is jumping on this....


Yeah that didn't take long.

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

> Also for those of us here in the US:
> http://www.humanesociety.org/news/pr...de-080713.html
> 
> Of course the HS is jumping on this....


this doesn't surprise me a bit. they already banned the af rocks. wtf? leave us alone.

----------


## Pickenprod

> Also for those of us here in the US:
> http://www.humanesociety.org/news/pr...de-080713.html
> 
> Of course the HS is jumping on this....



Wait a sec... Burms are banned in the US?? I thought they were the commonly known "good guys" of the big snake roster.

----------


## bcr229

> Wait a sec... Burms are banned in the US?? I thought they were the commonly known "good guys" of the big snake roster.


Not banned, they just can't be transported interstate except in very limited circumstances.  You can't even cross state lines to take it to a veterinarian.

----------


## Pickenprod

> Not banned, they just can't be transported interstate except in very limited circumstances.  You can't even cross state lines to take it to a veterinarian.



Well, that explains it. Eww.

----------


## norwegn113

> Also for those of us here in the US:
> http://www.humanesociety.org/news/pr...de-080713.html
> 
> Of course the HS is jumping on this....


the humane society will jump in to tell us all about how the non native snakes should not be in this country because the are dangerous and can tax our system....well here is a message to them, you want to talk about a non native predator taxing our system? What about all the illegal aliens that enter this country everyday. They come here take our jobs , dont pay taxes, use our resources, commit crimes and what do we do with them??? Give them citizenship , free health care and welfare. Yes .... please save us from all the vicious snake armies waiting to take over. They wanna make a difference in this country leave the reptiles along ( many tax paying Americans make their living in this trade ) and do something about the illegals bringing this country to its knees!

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

> Everyone vote!  No account required.
> 
> http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/community/poll-results


it took me to a "do you play the lotter?" poll..?

----------


## Pickenprod

> it took me to a "do you play the lotter?" poll..?



Yeah, it's a daily-poll thing. The snake one was yesterday, and I'm sad to see how it turned out  :Sad: 

The general public really does have no idea about reptiles. Either that, or they didn't read the part about ALL exotic snakes being banned and just assumed the poll meant the really huge ones!

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> Not banned, they just can't be transported interstate except in very limited circumstances.  You can't even cross state lines to take it to a veterinarian.


Well, unless you're loaded with gas, drive around nice cop routes, don't have a suspicious car, and follow the rules of the road, quite possibly maybe...  :Wink:

----------


## Kodieh

> Well, unless you're loaded with gas, drive around nice cop routes, don't have a suspicious car, and follow the rules of the road, quite possibly maybe...


Advocating the breaking of the law isn't really a good idea in light of recent challenges to our hobby. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------

_CrystalRose_ (08-07-2013),_Dave Green_ (08-07-2013),dbassa (08-07-2013),_ewaldrep_ (08-07-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (08-07-2013),_thedarkwolf25_ (08-08-2013),tlich (08-07-2013)

----------


## jschwe

So frustrating that people are already starting to rally for snake bans. That snake was ALREADY ILLEGAL. Enforcing a new ban is about as relevant as banning house cats because someone's pet tiger got loose. Sigh.

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> Advocating the breaking of the law isn't really a good idea in light of recent challenges to our hobby. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


I must apologize for my horribly timed joke then.
I don't condone breaking federal law in regards to the Lacey Act to any readers out there.

----------


## Kodieh

> I must apologize for my horribly timed joke then.
> I don't condone breaking federal law in regards to the Lacey Act to any readers out there.


I got where you were going, just a little too soon.  :Wink:  

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## I-KandyReptiles

If you wanna stay updated, subscribe to NERD on fb. 

Guess they're doing a toxicology right now. Cause of death was aphixiation.

----------

_CrystalRose_ (08-07-2013),_Shadera_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## dr del

> the humane society will jump in to tell us all about how the non native snakes should not be in this country because the are dangerous and can tax our system....well here is a message to them, you want to talk about a non native predator taxing our system? What about all the illegal aliens that enter this country everyday. They come here take our jobs , dont pay taxes, use our resources, commit crimes and what do we do with them??? Give them citizenship , free health care and welfare. Yes .... please save us from all the vicious snake armies waiting to take over. They wanna make a difference in this country leave the reptiles along ( many tax paying Americans make their living in this trade ) and do something about the illegals bringing this country to its knees!


You do understand you yourself are an illegal alien if you go back far enough?

Everyone outside of Africa is.

Please place intolerance in it's proper historical perspective and do not spread it on this site. We do not want to have to move this thread to the restricted quarantine section as the topic could be vital to us all.

Stay on topic, remember the family friendly nature of the site and let's try and find a positive way to limit the damage to the hobby as a whole.


dr del

----------

_Anya_ (08-07-2013),_Archimedes_ (08-07-2013),jschwe (08-07-2013),MarkS (08-07-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (08-07-2013),_STjepkes_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

Things are getting messy on Y! Answers after a HSUS activist posted.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...7143735AAswqgU

----------


## gaiaeagle

So here is the Good Morning America segment. Again, news media getting things wrong. They showed some blood pythons along with the rock pythons, and equated the African rock python to an albino Burmese that was found in the shed in Florida. 

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs...2704.html?vp=1

----------


## Pickenprod

I'm seeing a lot of emphasis on the "neglect" that snake keepers obviously subject their charges to. "Hadn't been fed in a week/ hadn't been fed in a month"! Oh no! The poor, hungry, perfectly on schedule... well-fed... uh. Umm.

I feel like making a general factsheet for the public, letting them know that snakes _do not eat every day_, among other things.

----------

_CrystalRose_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## Raven01

> I'm seeing a lot of emphasis on the "neglect" that snake keepers obviously subject their charges to. "Hadn't been fed in a week/ hadn't been fed in a month"! Oh no! The poor, hungry, perfectly on schedule... well-fed... uh. Umm.
> 
> I feel like making a general factsheet for the public, letting them know that snakes _do not eat every day_, among other things.



That isn't a bad idea at all.

I am sure that many people do not realise with a thermostat, one can with a fairly sound mind go on a weeks vacation and not have to worry about your pet.  That alone is nothing to sneeze at.

Really once you get your husbandry requirements down, I can't think of many pets easier to care for.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-07-2013),Gio (08-07-2013),_STjepkes_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## hig

> I'm seeing a lot of emphasis on the "neglect" that snake keepers obviously subject their charges to. "Hadn't been fed in a week/ hadn't been fed in a month"! Oh no! The poor, hungry, perfectly on schedule... well-fed... uh. Umm.
> 
> I feel like making a general factsheet for the public, letting them know that snakes _do not eat every day_, among other things.


That is a great idea!!

----------


## treeboa

I've been trying to reason with people all day on Yahoo! They refuse to listen to facts and just give in to their fears and believe all the sensationalism of the press and HSUS. I heard a report not long ago that things didn't add up with the autopsy and the Mounties are now looking at the Pet shop/apartment owner. Maybe people people just shouldn't jump to conclusions.

----------


## sorraia

> I'm seeing a lot of emphasis on the "neglect" that snake keepers obviously subject their charges to. "Hadn't been fed in a week/ hadn't been fed in a month"! Oh no! The poor, hungry, perfectly on schedule... well-fed... uh. Umm.
> 
> I feel like making a general factsheet for the public, letting them know that snakes _do not eat every day_, among other things.





> That isn't a bad idea at all.
> 
> I am sure that many people do not realise with a thermostat, one can with a fairly sound mind go on a weeks vacation and not have to worry about your pet.  That alone is nothing to sneeze at.
> 
> Really once you get your husbandry requirements down, I can't think of many pets easier to care for.


No kidding! People are very ignorant about the needs of a snake, compared to more common pets like dogs and cats. 

I keep seeing people say, "Why would you want a snake? You can't take it for a walk, you can't cuddle with it, you can't watch tv with it." What I want to know is why these are automatic criteria for what makes a "pet"? What if someone doesn't want an animal they can walk or cuddle? What if someone wants a critter they can just watch and admire? I'll tell you one thing... I have quite a few critters of my own, and they have their own unique needs, but one thing I LOVE about the snakes is the fact they do not need attention. I can watch them, I can handle them, but they aren't going to miss me or complain if I don't spend hours every day with them. My goats... they start screaming at me the moment I come home from work (mama goat wanting her grain and to be milked, baby goat just wanting attention). After I feed them and give them scratches, they scream at me some more when I walk away because I didn't spend enough time with them! I love that snakes don't care about that.  :Wink:

----------

_Raven01_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## OhhWatALoser

> I keep seeing people say, "Why would you want a snake? You can't take it for a walk, you can't cuddle with it, you can't watch tv with it."


Fish, the answer is fish. They are normal and make people go... oh.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013),DestinyLynette (08-07-2013),_Raven01_ (08-07-2013),_rlditmars_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## dbassa

> No kidding! People are very ignorant about the needs of a snake, compared to more common pets like dogs and cats. 
> 
> I keep seeing people say, "Why would you want a snake? You can't take it for a walk, you can't cuddle with it, you can't watch tv with it." What I want to know is why these are automatic criteria for what makes a "pet"?


^^This^^

Well said.

----------


## MarkS

> No kidding! People are very ignorant about the needs of a snake, compared to more common pets like dogs and cats. 
> 
> I keep seeing people say, "Why would you want a snake? You can't take it for a walk, you can't cuddle with it, you can't watch tv with it."


I've gotten this from people a lot in the past too.  My short answer is that they're like fish without the water.  People seem to get it then.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## CrystalRose

> No kidding! People are very ignorant about the needs of a snake, compared to more common pets like dogs and cats. 
> 
> I keep seeing people say, "Why would you want a snake? You can't take it for a walk, you can't cuddle with it, you can't watch tv with it." What I want to know is why these are automatic criteria for what makes a "pet"? What if someone doesn't want an animal they can walk or cuddle? What if someone wants a critter they can just watch and admire?


AMEN! I hear that all the time. Another thing that's really getting to me today reading some of the comments is how people think that anyone that has snakes is some kind of anti-social head case. I read one comment where a person said that snake owners should get some mental help because only a person that had a mental illness could want or identify with a snake. I had to stop reading for awhile because my blood was boiling.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## LJreptiles

In Canada a large python (no details released on what species but obviously a Burmese or a reticulated or something) escaped into the ventilation system and went upstairs and killed two children on a sleepover at their friends house. The family who owned the snake lived above there pet shop. The snake was accused of "attacking the children" my views however are different i mean obviously these two poor children have died for a reason but what hard evidence is there to back the fact this snake killed them as you all know a snakes defence is to strike and bite. Not to constrict as i think constriction is mainly linked with feeding my snakes would never constrict me as defence. I think the snake may have slithered over them and killed them in there sleep by accident nothing more. It is a tradjedy but this is what i hate because people will now go off and fear all pythons and its really bad. Its such a shame this has happened and wish it didnt

----------


## Archimedes

You can find many people's thoughts and opinions on this in the following thread:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-in-Boa-Attack

----------

dr del (08-07-2013)

----------


## sorraia

> AMEN! I hear that all the time. Another thing that's really getting to me today reading some of the comments is how people think that anyone that has snakes is some kind of anti-social head case. I read one comment where a person said that snake owners should get some mental help because only a person that had a mental illness could want or identify with a snake. I had to stop reading for awhile because my blood was boiling.


I'm avoiding going back to the articles and reading comments for precisely that information! I have 10 snakes in my house, as well as a host of other critters. No one would be able to pick me out from a crowd, and pin me as a snake owner just by looking at me or even talking to me. Only way they would know is if I specifically mentioned it. I don't have any piercings other than my ears (and only one hole each), no tattoos, my hair is dyed one color and it's a natural looking auburn, nothing spectacular or unusual about me. I imagine most of "those" people who think of snake owners believe them to be part of the "fringes" of society, wearing certain clothes, coloring their hair different colors, tattoos and piercings everywhere, etc. Nothing wrong with any of those things, but those aren't what define a person's likes or dislikes when it comes to the animals they keep!

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Stewart_Reptiles

> You can find many people's thoughts and opinions on this in the following thread:
> 
> http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-in-Boa-Attack


Merged  :Good Job:

----------

_Archimedes_ (08-07-2013)

----------


## sorraia

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but just saw this on a facebook friend's feed. I think it's actually a pretty decent article!

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...python-attack/

----------

_Anya_ (08-07-2013),_Archimedes_ (08-07-2013),_BlueMoonExotics_ (08-08-2013),_CrystalRose_ (08-08-2013),_Daybreaker_ (08-07-2013),dbassa (08-07-2013),_MootWorm_ (08-07-2013),_OctagonGecko729_ (08-08-2013),_RoseyReps_ (08-08-2013),Zoodledoodle (08-08-2013)

----------


## Archimedes

> Don't know if this has been posted yet, but just saw this on a facebook friend's feed. I think it's actually a pretty decent article!
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...python-attack/


Oh wow, look how nice and thorough it is!

----------

_OctagonGecko729_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Anya

> Don't know if this has been posted yet, but just saw this on a facebook friend's feed. I think it's actually a pretty decent article!
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...python-attack/


Wow, an actual 'news' article. Refreshing.

----------

_OctagonGecko729_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## ironpython

I smell a fish it doesn't make sense a snake goes in a room and kills two kids but doesn't eat them. I can see it maybe getting one and maybe if its big enough eating him but to go and just kill. For one thing in the time that it took to kill the first one the other kid would wake up from the noise and be screaming. No way it would get the second without a lot of noise. Someone killed those kids and blamed it on the snake. Autopsy will tell 

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser,  0.1 spider, 1.3 norm. 1.0 fire  0.1 RTB  0.0 sav. Mon.

----------



----------


## Kensa

Very sad tragedy that two boys lost their lives. Rather aggravating that it only takes one bad keeper to sully the reputation of the hobby. It is truly amazing how one incident can affect the lives of so many across the globe.

Welcome to the modern world, where the fate of many is decided by few.

----------


## CrystalRose

> I'm avoiding going back to the articles and reading comments for precisely that information! I have 10 snakes in my house, as well as a host of other critters. No one would be able to pick me out from a crowd, and pin me as a snake owner just by looking at me or even talking to me. Only way they would know is if I specifically mentioned it. I don't have any piercings other than my ears (and only one hole each), no tattoos, my hair is dyed one color and it's a natural looking auburn, nothing spectacular or unusual about me. I imagine most of "those" people who think of snake owners believe them to be part of the "fringes" of society, wearing certain clothes, coloring their hair different colors, tattoos and piercings everywhere, etc. Nothing wrong with any of those things, but those aren't what define a person's likes or dislikes when it comes to the animals they keep!


Sounds just like me. I have dogs and cats and what people would consider "normal" pets. I don't stand out in a crowd. Been happily married for almost 17 years. Live in a small town etc. When I do mention to people I have snakes they seem shocked then they tell me I don't seem like the "type". It just really gets on my nerves.

It's like my neighbor. He has a harley,Has tattoos and looks like what most people seem to consider the average "biker". He's told me people have actually crossed the street when they see him coming. However he and his wife are THE nicest people I know. He and his wife both do Pug rescue and he carries their one elderly pug when she gets too tired to walk. One day I had a knock on my door and it was him. They had gone to a pet expo and brought back a whole bag of free dog treat samples they had picked up for my dogs. Just really nice people. Stereotypes for any reason just suck.

----------

_sorraia_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## RoseyReps

> Don't know if this has been posted yet, but just saw this on a facebook friend's feed. I think it's actually a pretty decent article!
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...python-attack/


This article needs to be passed around like crazy. THIS is what people need to read, not the ones making out pythons/snakes to be serial killers.

----------

Centexsnakes (08-08-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (08-08-2013),_Quiet Tempest_ (08-08-2013),_sorraia_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## KingObeat

It doesn't help that Animal Planet and Nat Geo make all these anti exotic animal shows that usually portray the owners as mentally disturbed.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Salamander Rising

> the humane society will jump in to tell us all about how the non native snakes should not be in this country because the are dangerous and can tax our system....well here is a message to them, you want to talk about a non native predator taxing our system? What about all the illegal aliens that enter this country everyday. They come here take our jobs , dont pay taxes, use our resources, commit crimes and what do we do with them??? Give them citizenship , free health care and welfare. Yes .... please save us from all the vicious snake armies waiting to take over. They wanna make a difference in this country leave the reptiles along ( many tax paying Americans make their living in this trade ) and do something about the illegals bringing this country to its knees!


The most ecologically injurious and numerous non-native predator is the common house cat.

Let's see them impose a ban on them.

/s

----------


## Salamander Rising

> This article needs to be passed around like crazy. THIS is what people need to read, not the ones making out pythons/snakes to be serial killers.


This needs to be passed around, too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...pent-cage.html

Somebody explain to _me_ all the photos of nearly naked little boys frolicking in his shop.

----------


## Salamander Rising

> Very sad tragedy that two boys lost their lives. Rather aggravating that it only takes one bad keeper to sully the reputation of the hobby. It is truly amazing how one incident can affect the lives of so many across the globe.
> 
> Welcome to the modern world, where the fate of many is decided by few.


"The tyranny of the minority" is the phrase you're looking for, I suspect.

----------


## Kodieh

> "The tyranny of the minority" is the phrase you're looking for, I suspect.


Tyrannidem minoritas

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013),Centexsnakes (08-08-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> This needs to be passed around, too.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...pent-cage.html
> 
> Somebody explain to _me_ all the photos of nearly naked little boys frolicking in his shop.


Yep I was waiting for something like that.  After seeing that I think we all can conclude what happened here.  I think this case can be closed and our little creepo molester needs to be locked up.

----------


## Pythonfriend

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...python-attack/


the article is quite good, but i already found two mistakes, both related to the fact that 3 nations, namely Burma, Liberia and the USA, have not yet adopted the metric system.

"Hatchlings are 6cm in length". i guess they mean 6 inches? a typical cigarette is 8cm long, 6cm seems awfully small. but then, 6 inches also seems small.

"Snakes longer than three feet are prohibited pets in most provinces and municipalities in Canada". Take that, no corns or BPs for you!  Umm, no, its 3 meters. I wonder how many people now get called by friends being told: "hey, i just read your corn snake is illegal to keep, its longer than 3 feet, isnt it?"

Journalists, sometimes you just want to grab them, shake them, and shout some facts in their faces. My message for this one would be: "Use the units from the original source if you want to use the same numbers or do a crrect unit transversion, you idiot!". Its still the best article about the event ive seen so far. But really, what did he think when he took the 3, deleted the word "meters" and replaced it with the word "feet", and that from a guy working in Canada for a canadian paper? Canada adopted the metric system long ago.

----------

Pickenprod (08-08-2013)

----------


## Archimedes

This case grows more and more sickening...

----------


## RoseyReps

I'm not saying this guy didn't do it...in fact, I'm sure there is foul-play her. But those pictures aren't something that I would, as a parent, immediately think "OMG MOLESTER!". 
I've got tons of pictures of my kids running around like that, doing something goofy. It's what parents do. And when they don't have a bathing suit, guess what works just fine? Undies! 

Does that mean this guy ISN'T a  molester? Nope. I just hate seeing people ASSume because of pictures like that. These kids were over all the time, and supposedly "Like family" with his own son/himself. So these pictures don't prove to me that he was some evil child molester. 

That being said, he probably is, and I just wasted my breath. 

I just hate seeing people hung out to dry for this kind of picture, when 15-20 years ago no one would have thought ANYTHING of it. Hell, we used to run around in undies in the backyard splashing in mud puddles. Does that mean my parents were molesters?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013),_BrandiR_ (08-08-2013),DestinyLynette (08-08-2013),Pickenprod (08-08-2013),_Shadera_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Pythonfriend

> I'm not saying this guy didn't do it...in fact, I'm sure there is foul-play her. But those pictures aren't something that I would, as a parent, immediately think "OMG MOLESTER!". 
> I've got tons of pictures of my kids running around like that, doing something goofy. It's what parents do. And when they don't have a bathing suit, guess what works just fine? Undies! 
> 
> Does that mean this guy ISN'T a  molester? Nope. I just hate seeing people ASSume because of pictures like that. These kids were over all the time, and supposedly "Like family" with his own son/himself. So these pictures don't prove to me that he was some evil child molester. 
> 
> *That being said, he probably is, and I just wasted my breath.* 
> 
>  ....


 :Weirdface:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:    You really got me here

----------


## sorraia

> This needs to be passed around, too.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...pent-cage.html
> 
> Somebody explain to _me_ all the photos of nearly naked little boys frolicking in his shop.





> I'm not saying this guy didn't do it...in fact, I'm sure there is foul-play her. But those pictures aren't something that I would, as a parent, immediately think "OMG MOLESTER!". 
> I've got tons of pictures of my kids running around like that, doing something goofy. It's what parents do. And when they don't have a bathing suit, guess what works just fine? Undies! 
> 
> Does that mean this guy ISN'T a  molester? Nope. I just hate seeing people ASSume because of pictures like that. These kids were over all the time, and supposedly "Like family" with his own son/himself. So these pictures don't prove to me that he was some evil child molester. 
> 
> That being said, he probably is, and I just wasted my breath. 
> 
> I just hate seeing people hung out to dry for this kind of picture, when 15-20 years ago no one would have thought ANYTHING of it. Hell, we used to run around in undies in the backyard splashing in mud puddles. Does that mean my parents were molesters?


I understand what you are saying... My child is often in her diaper only during the heat of the day, partly because she gets heat rash very easily. At the same time... I would be uncomfortable if she were running around nearly naked in someone else's home, I would also be uncomfortable if pictures of her like this were then posted publicly on the internet. It might just be me, maybe I don't understand the close relationship that man had with the parents of these two boys, probably because I don't have that kind of relationship with anyone. It does bother me a little though.

What bothers me MORE however... is the statement in that article about this snake escaping in the past. One escape can be an accident, fix the problem and move on. Two escapes... that could still be an accident, but also shows your first fix wasn't good enough. Three escapes, now it's just plain negligence. For any kind of animal that is potentially dangerous (something large like that 14foot African rock, or a venomous snake, or even a large dog), there shouldn't be any accidents, let alone twice.

----------


## RoseyReps

> I understand what you are saying... My child is often in her diaper only during the heat of the day, partly because she gets heat rash very easily. At the same time... I would be uncomfortable if she were running around nearly naked in someone else's home, I would also be uncomfortable if pictures of her like this were then posted publicly on the internet. It might just be me, maybe I don't understand the close relationship that man had with the parents of these two boys, probably because I don't have that kind of relationship with anyone. It does bother me a little though.
> 
> *What bothers me MORE however... is the statement in that article about this snake escaping in the past. One escape can be an accident, fix the problem and move on. Two escapes... that could still be an accident, but also shows your first fix wasn't good enough. Three escapes, now it's just plain negligence. For any kind of animal that is potentially dangerous (something large like that 14foot African rock, or a venomous snake, or even a large dog), there shouldn't be any accidents, let alone twice.*


I agree wholeheartedly. I have no doubt this was the owner's fault, either by negligence, or actual foul play. 

The pictures were not taken from him though, these were pulled off of the mother's facebook page. Along with the one with the kids playing in the sand in a tank.

----------


## Mephibosheth1

I heard last night that he snake was not the property of the pet shop, but was the family's pet??  Anyone confirm/deny??

----------


## Rickys_Reptiles

> I heard last night that he snake was not the property of the pet shop, but was the family's pet??  Anyone confirm/deny??


The family owned the pet shop, so regardless if it was a pet or part of the shop its still the same family.

----------


## Pythonfriend

seems plausible that the pictures were ninja'd off facebook, thats just what tabloid journalists do:  Hack and enter facebook-accounts to get private pictures and personal information to be used as background.


Its really easy to do if the pictures are for example set to "frieds and friends of friends".

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

I'll be honest with you guys, I do believe that, unfortunately, the snake did do it. I also believe this is a horrible freak incident, and will probably never happen again.
It's a horrendous tragedy though. The guy who we're calling a molester said these were like his own children. Their mother was his best friend. Why the *bleep* would anybody kill their best friend's children? Hell, even he's grieving, and he probably feels guilty. And now everybody else is shoving him around. I don't about you guys, but if I were him, I'd be depressed as hell. He probably wants to kill himself. 
And think about this- I'd rather have this reptile associate be considered a klutz who messed up real bad rather than a child molester. Because what does that do for the rest of us in the viewpoint of the non-reptile public? That will reinforce the belief that we're all wierdos with tattoos and piercings (not like those are bad though) who go around molesting children and being creepy people. At least he shows that anybody associated with reptiles has emotion too. 
And I feel bad for the mother too. Losing your children, then hearing about it again and again all over the internet and the TV. Lord have mercy.
And I'd rather hope the kids, if they ever awoke, saw a snake suffocating them than somebody who they thought of as their own pseudo-dad. Because seeing someone you trust killing you as your last memory is awful.

In the mean time, we have to step out of denial. The snake probably did kill the children. We can't change the past and by saying someone else did it and that does not bring back two wonderful kids, and does not make the python uninvolved. However, don't be too defensive. The Reptile Community is NOT guilty. We just have to prove that to the non-herp public. We must show sympathy for all those involved, but we must also have damage control before we and our pets are villainized.

----------

Pickenprod (08-08-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

Well, the local news here (says my wife) last night said the "kids were constricted" but the autopsy reports haven't been released officially other than they were asphyxiated. People are already drawing conclusions and even if the snake didn't do it no one will believe it now. They've crucified our hobby, like Casey Anthony and Zimmerman. There is no going back even if every news report comes back and says "the snake didn't do it". 




Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------

_eatgoodfood_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> I'll be honest with you guys, I do believe that, unfortunately, the snake did do it. I also believe this is a horrible freak incident, and will probably never happen again.
> It's a horrendous tragedy though. The guy who we're calling a molester said these were like his own children. Their mother was his best friend. Why the *bleep* would anybody kill their best friend's children? Hell, even he's grieving, and he probably feels guilty. And now everybody else is shoving him around. I don't about you guys, but if I were him, I'd be depressed as hell. He probably wants to kill himself. 
> And think about this- I'd rather have this reptile associate be considered a klutz who messed up real bad rather than a child molester. Because what does that do for the rest of us in the viewpoint of the non-reptile public? That will reinforce the belief that we're all wierdos with tattoos and piercings (not like those are bad though) who go around molesting children and being creepy people. At least he shows that anybody associated with reptiles has emotion too. 
> And I feel bad for the mother too. Losing your children, then hearing about it again and again all over the internet and the TV. Lord have mercy.
> And I'd rather hope the kids, if they ever awoke, saw a snake suffocating them than somebody who they thought of as their own pseudo-dad. Because seeing someone you trust killing you as your last memory is awful.
> 
> In the mean time, we have to step out of denial. The snake probably did kill the children. We can't change the past and by saying someone else did it and that does not bring back two wonderful kids, and does not make the python uninvolved. However, don't be too defensive. The Reptile Community is NOT guilty. We just have to prove that to the non-herp public. We must show sympathy for all those involved, but we must also have damage control before we and our pets are villainized.


Im honestly still not quite ready to accept it, is that hard headed, possibly.  Do I really think that this guy is a molester or anything of the sort, no, not really, nor do photos like that necessarily make it that way.  I was being a smart *** earlier.  If it were one child, I think I would have accepted the fate already, if they were just crushed when it fell through the ceiling, I'd probably accept that too.

As to why anyone would kill their best friends kids?  Why would anyone kidnap 3 girls and keep them in his basement for 20 years or however long it was.  Why would a mom run out naked pack her kids into the car and drive the wrong way on the highway into oncoming traffic?  I don't think we quite know why people do a lot of really messed up things.  Now am I saying he did it, no, but I'm still not convinced the snake did either.  As I said, maybe that makes me hard headed, but Im going to wait for more info to come out, if it ever does.  If it was the snake, he should however some how be held accountable.

----------

_sorraia_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> As to why anyone would kill their best friends kids?  Why would anyone kidnap 3 girls and keep them in his basement for 20 years or however long it was.  Why would a mom run out naked pack her kids into the car and drive the wrong way on the highway into oncoming traffic?  I don't think we quite know why people do a lot of really messed up things.  Now am I saying he did it, no, but I'm still not convinced the snake did either.  As I said, maybe that makes me hard headed, but Im going to wait for more info to come out, if it ever does.  If it was the snake, he should however some how be held accountable.


I don't think a psychopath would make a best friend and cry about their kids dying.




> If it was the snake, he should however some how be held accountable.


Oh most definitely.

----------


## OctagonGecko729

Here are some good links for you guys and gals for your "debates" that I'm sure your having with the uninformed. Kodie put this together to send to our family members in a email but I edited it down to the links for you all.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...python-attack/

Also, the % of injuries/deaths each year from pools, bathtubs and dogs in comparison to captive reptiles is silly.

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html
http://www.tomkileylaw.com/library/child-injury-attorney-boston-bathtub-injury-lawyer-massachusetts.html
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/dog-bites/biteprevention.html
http://usherp.org/tag/reptile-deaths/

"Captive reptile incident (all kinds, including salmonella) 1 in 4,040,294" Less than 1 person per year.

 :Smile:  In case anyone was wondering!!!

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-08-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013),Centexsnakes (08-08-2013),_CrystalRose_ (08-08-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (08-08-2013),Pickenprod (08-08-2013),_Quiet Tempest_ (08-08-2013),Tribal (08-08-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> Here are some good links for you guys and gals for your "debates" that I'm sure your having with the uninformed. Kodie put this together to send to our family members in a email but I edited it down to the links for you all.
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...python-attack/
> 
> Also, the % of injuries/deaths each year from pools, bathtubs and dogs in comparison to captive reptiles is silly.
> 
> http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html
> http://www.tomkileylaw.com/library/child-injury-attorney-boston-bathtub-injury-lawyer-massachusetts.html
> http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/dog-bites/biteprevention.html
> ...


I did no such thing! 

Nice to see another person with my name.  :Wink:  

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## Slitherous

I'm heartbroken for the children and their family, but I'm with the not quite convinced group so far. I kept three 13-14' burms at one point in my life, and though I think they would be plausibly capable of constricting a child to death, I just can't envision a scenario where they could constrict two children at once without anyone noticing, (or even that they would consider a human as food). I had a rare event last night which reinforced that skepticism; I got nailed by my male cinny last night while feeding, (he's a very aggressive feeder, knew it was feeding time and struck as soon as his tub was opened). What got me thinking though was his reaction......after hitting my hand he didn't attempt to constrict at all, he_ immediately_ seemed to realize he didn't have a mouse in his mouth and actually freaked out and tried to run away. He instantly ran to the dark end of the cage, rolled up in a ball and refused to feed after previously being in a _very_ aggressive feeding mode, (he calmed down later and fed). Point being he knew he didn't have his usual meal in his mouth and retreated, something I think would be a normal reaction for _any python_. I know, I know, the kids smelled like farm animals, etc, etc......but I still can't quite get my head around it.....if true it was a _very_ rare, unusual and aberrant incident. As Paul Harvey used to say; I can't wait to hear _"the rest of the story"_. Of course, no matter what the truth turns out to be the damage to our hobby has been done, and prejudice against it will likely increase.

S

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> http://usherp.org/tag/reptile-deaths/


Damn! The government has a lot of regulations to do before we ban captive reptiles.

One day, oh one day, we'll have that perfect sanitary bubbly utopia that our oh-so-caring government wants to give us! Soon the environment will be saved, and we will be safe forever! And it will be, just oh sooooooooooooooooo perfect!







Not.

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> ...freaked out and tried to run away. He instantly ran to the dark end of the cage...




I couldn't help it.

----------

DestinyLynette (08-08-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (08-08-2013),Slitherous (08-08-2013)

----------


## Slitherous

> I couldn't help it.


Ha, left myself open for that one didn't I? Really can't fault you for having a sense of humor! Poor choice of words on my part. I should have used the word "scooted", "slithered" "moved quickly", or some other descriptive word(s). Point being he tried to get away!

S

----------


## BlueMoonExotics

> I don't think a psychopath would make a best friend and cry about their kids dying.


You would be surprised what a psychopath would do to get out of trouble. They are often deceitful and try to place the blame on others (possibly in this case a snake), as well as lying for personal profit. They can and do make friends quite easily, usually to benefit themselves. As far as him crying, I didn't see or hear any interviews where he was actually crying but I may have missed them in the sea of things floating around with this story. The interviews I did hear with him, he was quite calm and seemingly NOT emotional. He even admitted it himself in the interview, but he said it was because he was "in shock" which very well may be true.

I'm not saying he did it, I wouldn't dare say either way until all of the details are known, but don't think for a moment that a true psychopath wouldn't or couldn't do something like this. My mother is currently a MHP and a counselor for mental patients in the past. She still sees things that others would find to be very unbelievable, or that mental patients are "incapable" of doing or thinking such things...that doesn't make them any less true.

----------

_eatgoodfood_ (08-08-2013),_OctagonGecko729_ (08-08-2013),_sorraia_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Pythonfriend

hey, pools, bathtubs and dogs are not particularly rare and quite dangerous  :Smile: 


i would investigate:

- death by falling coconut. maybe around 150 cases per year.
- death by japanese pufferfish sushi (fugu) poisoning. only in japan, but japan is less populated than the USA and the numbers seem comparable.

another japanese one i find particularly interesting is death by mochi.



> Because of mochi's extremely sticky texture, there is usually a small number of choking deaths around New Year in Japan, particularly amongst the elderly. The death toll is reported in newspapers in the days after New Year.


then there would be the classic one, death by lightning strike. it happens surprisingly frequently. For example:



> 1998 October: The entire association football team of *Bena Tshadi* playing against Basanga was killed by lightning during a match in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Everyone on Basanga, the home team, survived


as soon as the heart attack grill in Las Vegas turns into a franchise, then death by heart attack at the heart attack grill could become a contender. 

death by winning big in gambling could also be one.


unfortunately sources for each of these are not that easy to find. But given the low numbers of death by snake, we should hit this ball right out of the park. And pools, tubs and dogs dont quite do it for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_deaths   for some inspiration.

How about self-torpedoing?



> 1942: *32 men* died as a result of a chain of events that started when the British cruiser HMS _Trinidad_ accidentally torpedoed itself.[65]1944: *74 men* died when the US Submarine _Tang_ (SS-306) accidentally torpedoed itself during a combat patrol off the coast of Taiwan.[66]

----------


## OctagonGecko729

> I did no such thing! 
> 
> Nice to see another person with my name.  
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


You know whats funnier yet. She is Kodie H. as well  :ROFL:

----------

_Kodieh_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> You would be surprised what a psychopath would do to get out of trouble.


At this point, they are sociopaths. Because they can function normally and can pass off false emotion as real emotion. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## toothy

> At this point, they are sociopaths. Because they can function normally and can pass off false emotion as real emotion.


Been lurking this thread because I knew I'd find good information about this story here.
However I had to post when I read what was written above.

There is no difference between sociopath and psychopath- if I recall correctly, both terms are going the way of the Dodo, replaced with Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Sociopathy

----------


## DestinyLynette

Quoting Urban Jungle Radio Facebook status:

"And so the hysteria takes grip...

"North Vancouver Mounties rushed to a home near Capilano University around noon Wednesday after a resident there reported a four-foot-long ball python living in the basement suite below had gone missing".


http://www.vancouversun.com/technolo...547/story.html"

----------


## Pythonfriend

and now that they have a "story" that ACTUALLY IS about a ball python....    they show something else. looks like an african rock python.

----------


## Kodieh

> Been lurking this thread because I knew I'd find good information about this story here.
> However I had to post when I read what was written above.
> 
> There is no difference between sociopath and psychopath- if I recall correctly, both terms are going the way of the Dodo, replaced with Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Sociopathy


http://www.diffen.com/difference/Psy...h_vs_Sociopath

This could mean what you mentioned as being dropped, however I specifically mean the criminology side of it where sociopaths are functional and discrete while psychopaths are unable to hide their violent nature. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## sorraia

> I'll be honest with you guys, I do believe that, unfortunately, the snake did do it. I also believe this is a horrible freak incident, and will probably never happen again.
> It's a horrendous tragedy though. The guy who we're calling a molester said these were like his own children. Their mother was his best friend. Why the *bleep* would anybody kill their best friend's children? Hell, even he's grieving, and he probably feels guilty. And now everybody else is shoving him around. I don't about you guys, but if I were him, I'd be depressed as hell. He probably wants to kill himself. 
> And think about this- I'd rather have this reptile associate be considered a klutz who messed up real bad rather than a child molester. Because what does that do for the rest of us in the viewpoint of the non-reptile public? That will reinforce the belief that we're all wierdos with tattoos and piercings (not like those are bad though) who go around molesting children and being creepy people. At least he shows that anybody associated with reptiles has emotion too. 
> And I feel bad for the mother too. Losing your children, then hearing about it again and again all over the internet and the TV. Lord have mercy.
> And I'd rather hope the kids, if they ever awoke, saw a snake suffocating them than somebody who they thought of as their own pseudo-dad. Because seeing someone you trust killing you as your last memory is awful.
> 
> In the mean time, we have to step out of denial. The snake probably did kill the children. We can't change the past and by saying someone else did it and that does not bring back two wonderful kids, and does not make the python uninvolved. However, don't be too defensive. The Reptile Community is NOT guilty. We just have to prove that to the non-herp public. We must show sympathy for all those involved, but we must also have damage control before we and our pets are villainized.


Why would someone kill their best friend's children? None of us sane people could answer that. But consider children are killed all the time, and often not by complete strangers, but by people they knew and trusted, their own siblings, their own parents. Out here there was recently a case where a young boy was reported missing. His body was found in a shallow grave in the backyard of the very home he lives in. Turns out his own brother (step-brother) killed him, and the victim's mother helped cover up for him. There are many other cases of family members, including siblings and parents, killing their own children. There are a lot of sick people in this world, and the scariest part is you can't always readily identify them. Some of the worst people out there are also the coolest cats you'll ever meet, extremely manipulative. That's how they are able to commit their crimes. If just any one could pick them out from a crowd, they'd be reported long before they could do any harm. 

As for trying to save our hobby... too late. Snakes have already been villainized. The media has already convinced people snakes are killer animals out to hunt us down and kill us. Society already believes each and every single one of us who chooses to keep a snake is some kind of psychopathic freak who needs to be locked up in the mental ward. We can try to change some minds, but it's probably not going to matter much. The vocal members of our society are out there trying to take our snakes away from us.

----------


## sorraia

> http://www.diffen.com/difference/Psy...h_vs_Sociopath
> 
> This could mean what you mentioned as being dropped, however I specifically mean the criminology side of it where sociopaths are functional and discrete while psychopaths are unable to hide their violent nature. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


My husband applied to a local sheriff department. Part of that process includes psyche screening. During one of the interviews the difference between psychopath and sociopath came up. I think it was during his lie detector test. The person giving him the test said he's interviewed psychopaths and sociopaths, and of the two sociopaths are worse. According to him, psychopaths know what they are doing is wrong, but can't help it. Sociopaths apparently don't believe what they are doing is wrong, and have absolutely no remorse. During a lie detector test, the psychopath will give "hits", while the sociopath doesn't. For example, the question, "Would you have any problem killing a person?" When the psychopath answers, there will be a hit on their results. The sociopath can look the interviewer dead in the eyes and say, "I have no problem killing a person." and their results will have no hits, nothing indicating a lie. I don't know how effective lie detector tests are (I know there's been debate), but regardless that's something to think about.

----------

_Archimedes_ (08-09-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-08-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

Exactly, sociopaths can hide from you. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

> and now that they have a "story" that ACTUALLY IS about a ball python....    they show something else. looks like an african rock python.


Mmmmmmmm, its a Burmese python.

----------


## Pythonfriend

and how do you call people that lack any and all empathy for other humans or for any animals, but that never commit crimes and can function quite well in society?

i most often here these being referred to as psychopaths, but according to the link these would be sociopaths. 

or is total lack of empathy but no violence something else?


Anyway, i think the guy that was the owner of the african rock python was neither. if he would be the impulsive kind, it would show much more in the past and in statements about him. if he would be the planning kind, then it doesnt fit because its a damn stupid plan, best case scenario is that everyone hates him, non-snake-keepers and snake-keepers alike, because he failed to have the snake under control. (or because he kept it in the first place, or because he kept it near children).

----------


## ARamos8

Our hearts and prayers go out to the family.  Tragic.  :Sad: 

I think someone is trying to serve foul play with a side of BS.   :Mad:   I'll continue to follow this story as it will develop some more.

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

anywaaaays... any updates on this story? or is it case closed: snakes are monsters.

----------


## SquamishSerpents

as·phyx·i·a (s-fks-)
n.
A condition in which an extreme decrease in the amount of oxygen in the body accompanied by an increase of carbon dioxide leads to loss of consciousness or death.

Things that can cause oxygen deficiency:


    -Carbon monoxide inhalation, such as from a car exhaust: carbon monoxide has a higher affinity than oxygen to the hemoglobin in the blood's red blood corpuscles, bonding with it tenaciously, and, in the process, displacing oxygen and preventing the blood from transporting oxygen around the body
    -Contact with certain chemicals, including pulmonary agents (such as phosgene) and blood agents (such as hydrogen cyanide)
    -Self-induced hypocapnia by hyperventilation, as in shallow water or deep water blackout and the choking game
    -A seizure which stops breathing activity
    -Sleep apnea
    -Drug overdose
    -Ondine's curse, central alveolar hypoventilation syndrome, or primary alveolar hypoventilation, a disorder of the autonomic nervous system in which a patient must consciously breathe; although it is often said that persons with this disease will die if they fall asleep, this is not usually the case
    -Acute respiratory distress syndrome.
    -Exposure to extreme low pressure or vacuum to the pattern (see space exposure)
    -Hanging
    -Respiratory diseases
    -Drowning
    -Possibly crucifixion

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Also right from that article in dailymail: 

"It constricts its prey to death and has been known to devour whole antelopes or crocodiles. After gripping the prey, the snake coils around it and tightens its coils every time the prey exhales;* death is often caused by cardiac arrest rather than by asphyxiation*"

UNFORTUNATELY everyone is just going to have to be patient until the full results are released.

----------


## BlueMoonExotics

> At this point, they are sociopaths. Because they can function normally and can pass off false emotion as real emotion. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4





> and how do you call people that lack any and all empathy for other humans or for any animals, but that never commit crimes and can function quite well in society?
> 
> i most often here these being referred to as psychopaths, but according to the link these would be sociopaths. 
> 
> or is total lack of empathy but no violence something else?
> 
> 
> Anyway, i think the guy that was the owner of the african rock python was neither. if he would be the impulsive kind, it would show much more in the past and in statements about him. if he would be the planning kind, then it doesnt fit because its a damn stupid plan, best case scenario is that everyone hates him, non-snake-keepers and snake-keepers alike, because he failed to have the snake under control. (or because he kept it in the first place, or because he kept it near children).


I guess I was trying to avoid getting off topic by explaining the different types of personality disorders (there are many) and try to figure out (without ever meeting him in person) which one he could possibly be, if any. That would be up to the people involved in this case. The term psychopath had already been dropped in this thread and it's used pretty loosely by the average person. The point is that they can be your best friend and most people wouldn't have a clue. Again, I'm not saying that he is or isn't, but it can and does happen. Personally, I'm not sure that is the case, but I do think that details are missing that shouldn't be. Something is amiss either because the media isn't telling it or because someone isn't giving all the details.

----------


## Pickenprod

Yeah, it really disappoints me to see some articles using the word "strangled" right there in the headline. Asphyxiation sounds like a terrible way to go, but there are more ways that someone could die from asphyxiation than being strangled by a python.

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

from Jay Brewer (Prehistoric Pets') facebook page:





> A message from founder Jay Brewer regarding his televised interview this morning:
> 
>  "Those poor children! I cannot imagine loosing two of my kids, but I  would want to know the TRUTH! All of it. I would want to know why there  was no bites, no blood, & no trauma? 
> 
>  Reports said at first  Savoie tried to wake the boys, why would you think they would wake up?  Because they looked like they were asleep with eyes closed.
> 
>  Carbon monoxide is called the silent killer. It leaves no bite marks,  no blood, & no trauma. Comes from ventilation pipes (which were  broken by the pythons escape) and goes to the lowest points in the  room... the floor were the kids where sleeping. 
> 
>  Also the  preliminary autopsies came back as asphyxiation again pointing away from  the python. Harry Greene professor and snake expert at Cornell  University explains "constrictors do not kill by asphyxiation" and Brad  Chambers further details "snakes kill by a catastrophic spike in blood  pressure and cardio pulmonary failure" 
> ...

----------


## eatgoodfood

> anywaaaays... any updates on this story? or is it case closed: snakes are monsters.


Oh its far from over.  Here is the recent I have seen.

http://globalnews.ca/news/769386/mis...cean-employee/

Apparently many of the animals, i.e crocodiles and what not came from the government as he was the only facility capable of caring for the seized animals... hmmm...

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

Well, we have a long road ahead of us. 
By the way, this may be useful: http://melissaasmith.hubpages.com/hub/simplelogic
I demand public protest for ALL walking exotic pet keepers- not just reptile keepers! I'm getting sick of the witch hunting crap.

----------


## treeboa

> Oh its far from over.  Here is the recent I have seen.
> 
> http://globalnews.ca/news/769386/mis...cean-employee/
> 
> Apparently many of the animals, i.e crocodiles and what not came from the government as he was the only facility capable of caring for the seized animals... hmmm...


The problem with this story is that the source is an employee/friend of his. There are several holes here. If the government gave him the animals, why did they not, also, give him the permits needed to keep them? If there was no place to take the animals seized back then, why are they having no trouble finding a place now that they were seized from him? Lastly, from the pictures I've seen, his shop looks pretty small. How did he ever have room to properly house all these large animals? I don't like the fact that snakes are taking an undeserved beating in all this, but if this guy was breaking the law, he deserves what he gets.

----------


## ewaldrep

> Also right from that article in dailymail: 
> 
> "It constricts its prey to death and has been known to devour whole antelopes or crocodiles. After gripping the prey, the snake coils around it and tightens its coils every time the prey exhales;* death is often caused by cardiac arrest rather than by asphyxiation*"
> 
> UNFORTUNATELY everyone is just going to have to be patient until the full results are released.


This statement does not say only cardiac arrest so that does not rule out the snakes as the culprit here. Thus far, on this site, it has been an interesting view of confirmation bias in action. The most likely scenario at this point is the unfortunate and untimely death of the two boys by the snake due to an irresponsible keeper. If there is evidence that contradicts that then I am waiting to hear it.

----------


## treeboa

> This statement does not say only cardiac arrest so that does not rule out the snakes as the culprit here. Thus far, on this site, it has been an interesting view of confirmation bias in action. The most likely scenario at this point is the unfortunate and untimely death of the two boys by the snake due to an irresponsible keeper. If there is evidence that contradicts that then I am waiting to hear it.


Something to think about, though. Why was there no mention of other evidence of the snakes being responsible i.e. broken ribs, bruising, bite marks? If the autopsy conclusively proved the snake did it, why are the Mounties still looking into it and not already filing charges against the store owner? The store owner is probably responsible for this in some way whether it's negligence or murder. From what I've seen so far and what I know of large constrictors I'm far from convinced the snake did it. I should mention that someone on Facebook brought up another possible scenario. The ventilation was damaged. Is it possible the boys were killed by CO2? I know it does no good to speculate really, but with all the general public jumping on the bloodthirsty snake bandwagon it's hard not to get defensive.

----------


## eatgoodfood

> The problem with this story is that the source is an employee/friend of his. There are several holes here. If the government gave him the animals, why did they not, also, give him the permits needed to keep them? If there was no place to take the animals seized back then, why are they having no trouble finding a place now that they were seized from him? Lastly, from the pictures I've seen, his shop looks pretty small. How did he ever have room to properly house all these large animals? I don't like the fact that snakes are taking an undeserved beating in all this, but if this guy was breaking the law, he deserves what he gets.


Yea, former employee, but I did not see where it said friend, maybe I missed that, anyway.  I do not recall reading anywhere that he was for sure holding anything illegally, if that was the case, where are the charges against him for that?  The snake in question, from what I have read, was legal, was in his care prior to the current laws and was grandfathered in, or something of the sort.  The article said the croc was given to him in 2002, was it not much later, 2009 or something that the new exotics laws were in place?  Or did I miss something, I might have, if so can someone please point me to it?

----------


## treeboa

> Yea, former employee, but I did not see where it said friend, maybe I missed that, anyway.  I do not recall reading anywhere that he was for sure holding anything illegally, if that was the case, where are the charges against him for that?  The snake in question, from what I have read, was legal, was in his care prior to the current laws and was grandfathered in, or something of the sort.  The article said the croc was given to him in 2002, was it not much later, 2009 or something that the new exotics laws were in place?  Or did I miss something, I might have, if so can someone please point me to it?


Didn't say friend was just my assumption. The article that reported authorities confiscating his animals mentioned they were being confiscated because he did not have the proper permits to keep them. So obviously they were being kept illegally. I don't know about Canada, but in the US when regulations are passed they almost never grandfather in anyone. They just give you a time frame to give up your banned animal. In this case, I imagine that if they came up with a permit system they would not have grandfathered in anything.

----------


## eatgoodfood

> Didn't say friend was just my assumption. The article that reported authorities confiscating his animals mentioned they were being confiscated because he did not have the proper permits to keep them. So obviously they were being kept illegally. I don't know about Canada, but in the US when regulations are passed they almost never grandfather in anyone. They just give you a time frame to give up your banned animal. In this case, I imagine that if they came up with a permit system they would not have grandfathered in anything.


Good point, hadn't thought about that.  Which then really brings to question _if_ the government was bringing animals, why, if it was illegal for him to have them.  Or was it prior to these laws, and he just never registered them, applied for permits or whatever he was supposed to do once the new regulations were in place.

----------


## treeboa

Here's a link. Actually it says the animals are going to be confiscated. Apparently at one time he had permits as a zoo but wasn't eligible for them after changing his operation to a retail shop. 

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/dnr-set-exe...151349461.html

----------


## eatgoodfood

> Here's a link. Actually it says the animals are going to be confiscated. Apparently at one time he had permits as a zoo but wasn't eligible for them after changing his operation to a retail shop. 
> 
> http://ca.news.yahoo.com/dnr-set-exe...151349461.html


OK, that article makes more sense, thanks for linking that.

----------


## Pythonfriend

> Something to think about, though. Why was there no mention of other evidence of the snakes being responsible i.e. broken ribs, bruising, bite marks? If the autopsy conclusively proved the snake did it, why are the Mounties still looking into it and not already filing charges against the store owner? The store owner is probably responsible for this in some way whether it's negligence or murder. From what I've seen so far and what I know of large constrictors I'm far from convinced the snake did it. I should mention that someone on Facebook brought up another possible scenario. The ventilation was damaged. Is it possible the boys were killed by CO2? I know it does no good to speculate really, but with all the general public jumping on the bloodthirsty snake bandwagon it's hard not to get defensive.


The thing is, we DO NOT yet have the autopsy reports yet.

Two things leaked from the autopsy:

- Presence of bite marks consistent with the snake
- Likely cause of death, preliminary: Asphyxiation.

We do not have full autopsy reports, these two bits of information leaked early, it is likely that the full autopsy reports, when they go public, confirm this. Anything else, like bruises, strangle marks, broken bones, toxicology report, would all be covered in the full autopsy reports which we do not have yet. Only the two bits i mentioned leaked early. 


Where i live our local reptile shelter is headed by a professor of veterinary medicine specialized on reptiles and teaching at a really prestigious university. And among the staff and volunteers there are no less than 4 professional veterinarians. The facility is also used to teach senior vet students and veterinarians on how to handle venomous or otherwise potentially dangerous reptiles, and some students make their PH.D. in veterinary medicine there. People volunteer to help the animals, but people also volunteer because it is an excellent place to get in-depth and up-to-date knowledge about reptiles, and reptile husbandry, and reptile handling, and reptile diseases.


one guy that used to have some licenses doesnt make a reptile sanctuary. Caring for the animals, expertise, and education, and law-enforcement should come together, then you have a good sanctuary.

----------


## treeboa

It's true they haven't made the report public. They may not even have it ready. They maybe waiting for toxicology reports, etc. Do you have a link to the leak about bite marks? All the reports I've seen only talk about the cause of death as asphyxiatiion.

----------


## Willie76

It's far easier for politicians to introduce blanket legislation in the  time of a tragedy so they are seen as doing "something" about the  "problem". This is purely for votes, and not because they seek to  understand the issue. Instead of holding individuals accountable, they  attack the object or the animal because if they look at the unbiased,  real CDC statistics...20+ people are killed every year by dogs (mostly  kids and the elderly), 200+ people are killed by domesticated farm  animals, 80000+ people are killed in alcohol related incidents, and  you're 10 times more likely to be killed by your toaster (or other small  electrical appliance)...they'll see it as it truly is: a simple,  horrific tragedy that is extremely rare in our hobby. Only one other  person has been killed in the U.S. by an African Rock python in the last  15-20 years. Let's not forget the USFWS has even proved that  constricting snakes cannot live anywhere north of Florida in their own  study.

All this information is fine and dandy, but the politicians don't look  at it. And with the introduction of legislation that would allow the  USFWS to add ANY species to Lacey without due process, we can probably  kiss our hobby goodbye as we know it. The only way we can attempt to  overcome these hurdles is by action. Talking about it in these forums is  great, but no one hears us. We need to take our views to our  Congressional Representative and support organizations like USARK that  do speak for us. Moreover, we need to educate.

So if you're wondering what you can do, head over to the USARK website  and follow the steps to oppose Categorical Exclusion AND the recent push  to add Boas, Reticulated Pythons, and others to Lacey. Without the sum  of our individual efforts, we'll be shot down:

http://usark.org/action-alert/usfws-...l-exclusion-2/

http://usark.org/press-releases/acti...-as-injurious/

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-09-2013),_minguss_ (08-09-2013),_Mr Oni_ (08-09-2013),Pythonfriend (08-09-2013),_Shadera_ (08-09-2013)

----------


## GreyFeather

Some more sheer idiocy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-hungry.html

The best rated comments, heck the comments in general on this article (and the article itself) really bother me. Why people can't employ common sense and realise that not all snakes are big enough/of the temperament to be any real threat to people, and that NO snakes are evil monsters out to prey on people any chance they get is beyond me.

Hopefully some of you might post on this article like I did so there are at least some comments that aren't of the 'BAN ALL SNAKES IMMEDIATELY - SAVE OUR CHILDREN!!!!' variety.

----------


## treeboa

> Some more sheer idiocy:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-hungry.html
> 
> The best rated comments, heck the comments in general on this article (and the article itself) really bother me. Why people can't employ common sense and realise that not all snakes are big enough/of the temperament to be any real threat to people, and that NO snakes are evil monsters out to prey on people any chance they get is beyond me.
> 
> Hopefully some of you might post on this article like I did so there are at least some comments that aren't of the 'BAN ALL SNAKES IMMEDIATELY - SAVE OUR CHILDREN!!!!' variety.


One of the things they are ignoring with this call for a ban is that the guy in this case had these snakes illegally despite a ban on constrictors over 3 meters (about 10ft). I've tried too, there's no reasoning with these people and they won't change their mind even if it does come out the snake wasn't responsible.

----------

_decensored_ (08-13-2013),_sorraia_ (08-10-2013)

----------


## sissysnakes

> It's true they haven't made the report public. They may not even have it ready. They maybe waiting for toxicology reports, etc. Do you have a link to the leak about bite marks? All the reports I've seen only talk about the cause of death as asphyxiatiion.


X2

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## Stewart_Reptiles

Now investigated as  possible murder http://www.fox.com.au/fox-news-feed/...investigation/

Interestingly enough as the investigation changes course the media does not report as much on the story.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------

_sorraia_ (08-14-2013),wolfy-hound (08-13-2013)

----------


## Eric Alan

> Now investigated a  possible murder http://www.fox.com.au/fox-news-feed/...investigation/
> 
> Interestingly enough as the investigation changes course the media does not report as much on the story.


What a shocking twist of events!  :Wink:

----------


## Willie76

Actually, the Canadian version of the USFWS actually brought the AFR to this gentleman back in 2002 (I believe) as well as a couple American Alligators around 2000 as he was the only one in the province able to care for the animals with a valid Zoo permit. So he didn't have them illegally...as a matter of fact, the Canadian Government KNEW he was caring for them. 

But like everyone else has stated, we need to remain calm until we find all the facts...we can't speculate. Unfortunately the restraint we show isn't shown by the media. Now it's confirmed there were NO bite marks and it's being investigated as a homicide. HMMMM.

----------


## decensored

There is a lot of public ignorance in Canada right now surrounding a few events in the media - two of which are relative to my personal and professional life. It's frustrating to watch the media take the tiny little brains out of general public's skulls, and wash them with their half ass arguments supported by nothing but fear, bias, ignorance, and malice.  You see with cases like this, all the media does is feed on the emotions of people and blatantly ignore facts.  They like to support their stances with fuzzy feelings and idealistic, largely unrealistic or at the very least unfair, solutions.  It's been a frustrating month to say the least.

----------

DestinyLynette (08-13-2013),Willie76 (08-13-2013)

----------


## decensored

Mind you I will say that a few media outlets have reached out to relatively significant individuals (or the other way around) within the reptile community and offered to put our voice out there.  Dave from Snake Pit Exotics did a very good interview in London last friday.  However, it's a shame that we get a chance to speak long after the damage has been inflicted.

----------


## Darwin

> Now investigated as  possible murder http://www.fox.com.au/fox-news-feed/...investigation/
> 
> Interestingly enough as the investigation changes course the media does not report as much on the story.



I'm in Atlantic Canada and I haven't come across any credible news sources saying this is now being treated as a homicide.   Thus far, I have chose not to comment at all on this story out of respect for all involved in the tragedy and it being close to home but I'm not convinced that this Australian radio station report is a credible news source and that's a huge accusation to put on a grieving family.  

In other newsworthy "news" a meter long ball python was found in a garage  :Surprised:  Apparently the words "seized" and "found" can be used interchangeably.  Despite the very poorly written article, the video at least states that BP's are harmless to humans and significantly smaller than the one involved in the N.B. incident...not that it will mean anything to the "snakes are monsters" part of the population.

http://globalnews.ca/news/771936/bal...rth-york-home/

----------

Jay2322 (08-15-2013)

----------


## Kat_Dog

> Now investigated as  possible murder http://www.fox.com.au/fox-news-feed/...investigation/
> 
> Interestingly enough as the investigation changes course the media does not report as much on the story.


I wonder if that's real or something that news station just came up with... I can only seem to find it on the 2 versions of that same news station...

Still it's strange that there hasn't been any updates about this case in the last few days....

----------

_alykoz_ (08-13-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> I wonder if that's real or something that news station just came up with... I can only seem to find it on the 2 versions of that same news station...
> 
> Still it's strange that there hasn't been any updates about this case in the last few days....


This coincides with the desert eggs thread, if it was true that a desert laid eggs or a python killed two kids they'd be screaming to high heaven. 

What we know then is that the snake didn't do it and they've allowed the evidence of the real killer to be cleaned up because they released the scene. 

They didn't scream because they trusted the person who did it. Do we have another Casey Anthony? Helped kill her kids so that she and the shop owner could have an unburdened life? 

Who knows. We sure won't know what really happened. But two kids are dead, and destroying a hobby isn't the way towards justice. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------

_alykoz_ (08-13-2013)

----------


## Kat_Dog

> This coincides with the desert eggs thread, if it was true that a desert laid eggs or a python killed two kids they'd be screaming to high heaven. 
> 
> What we know then is that the snake didn't do it and they've allowed the evidence of the real killer to be cleaned up because they released the scene. 
> 
> They didn't scream because they trusted the person who did it. Do we have another Casey Anthony? Helped kill her kids so that she and the shop owner could have an unburdened life? 
> 
> Who knows. We sure won't know what really happened. But two kids are dead, and destroying a hobby isn't the way towards justice. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


I mean, I wonder if it's real that the police are starting a murder investigation, or if the news station made it up.
(Did I interpret your post correctly?)

I'm pretty sure this was carbon monoxide poisoning and not the snake... Everything I've read seems to point away from the snake. Though, the news reporting is so shoddy and focused in the snake, there's no way you could get any real info out of it...

----------


## Kodieh

Yeah, not that I hope it was a human or something else, I just hope it isn't the snake... 

I hope the report is real, and everyone else is just like "not interesting anymore". 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## sunshinenorcas

I have a question/possible scenario. Kids were in the living room right? 

Lets say son and dad were in the other room, but kids were sleeping right next to each other. Could the snake have gotten into the room, and looking for something warm, laid on the kids? That's a big animal (100lbs right?) and 100lbs of muscle on a 5 and 7 year old, especially if it managed to get right on their chests/windpipe. If there were any broken bones, or trauma, they could have gone into shock before being able to do anything or scream... and hard to scream if a big snake is on your windpipe. Death throes/panic could have frightened the snake and caused it to defensive bite. It wouldn't need to constrict to cause asphyxiation on two kids that size.  

It'd still be the snake who killed them, but freak accident and utterly the fault of the owner for having the snake in something it could get out off, especially if it's happened before.

----------

_decensored_ (08-14-2013)

----------


## Shadera

> I wonder if that's real or something that news station just came up with... I can only seem to find it on the 2 versions of that same news station...
> 
> Still it's strange that there hasn't been any updates about this case in the last few days....


They got their desired scapegoat.  Why would they want to go back and admit they possibly jumped the gun?

Haven't had a chance to search for more info to back it up, but hopefully the truth is out there.

----------


## Kodieh

> I have a question/possible scenario. Kids were in the living room right? 
> 
> Lets say son and dad were in the other room, but kids were sleeping right next to each other. Could the snake have gotten into the room, and looking for something warm, laid on the kids? That's a big animal (100lbs right?) and 100lbs of muscle on a 5 and 7 year old, especially if it managed to get right on their chests/windpipe. If there were any broken bones, or trauma, they could have gone into shock before being able to do anything or scream... and hard to scream if a big snake is on your windpipe. Death throes/panic could have frightened the snake and caused it to defensive bite. It wouldn't need to constrict to cause asphyxiation on two kids that size.  
> 
> It'd still be the snake who killed them, but freak accident and utterly the fault of the owner for having the snake in something it could get out off, especially if it's happened before.


The guy said there were no screams, and everyone else says that at least one would have been able to scream. So, I'd look at him a lot more closely. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## sunshinenorcas

If they were laying right next to each other? I'm not talking about him constricting the kids, the 'what if' is if he managed to kill them by just being on their chests, which wouldn't take long. And it's not like snakes are fast predators, so if he killed/squished/did something that put him into shock before moving over to the next kid... IDK. And people in shock act in funny ways. KIDS in shock act in funny ways. Not everyone has a strong fight response to 'omg huge animal is laying on my brother, what do I do', he COULD have just been scared and laid still... and then got squished if the snake moved.

----------


## Kodieh

That's even more peculiar than the snake violently attacking the kids. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## sunshinenorcas

"Compressive asphyxia (also called chest compression) is mechanically limiting expansion of the lungs by compressing the torso, hence interfering with breathing. Compressive asphyxia occurs when the chest or abdomen is compressed posteriorly"


"Smothering is the mechanical obstruction of the flow of air from the environment into the mouth and/or nostrils, for instance, by covering the mouth and nose with a hand, pillow, or a plastic bag"




A snake that big would not need to bite or constrict two small kids in order to kill them. 100lbs is more then enough weight to do either of those, especially if the kids were sleeping and still, and right next to each other, and from what I've seen, no one is accounting for shock when they talk about the victims responses. It may take minutes to technically die by either of those methods, but if your body is in shock, you try to hyperventilate and try to breathe, which would speed up the process and probably make you black out and go inert, making it easier to be still enough to be killed.


It may be unusual, but no more unusual then a sociopath (true sociopaths are really, really, really rare btw- do not let TV fool you) killing two kids for no reason and using a snake as a cover. Or a mother killing her kids to get with her best friend, both of which I've seen discussed as legit possibilities.

I'm not blaming the snake at all- if it was the snake, it was just doing what snakes do, not trying to 'be mean or aggressive man killer', which is a heck of a lot more then I can say for some dog attacks or even other exotics. I fully blame the owner for having an animal that big in an enclosure that it had gotten out of before. If anything, I hope its a reality check to someone who wants a big snake because LOL BIG SNAKES ARE SO COOL AND AWESOME LOOK HOW *MANLY* I AM WITH THIS BIG OL' ANIMAL, AREN'T I COOL. Uh no. There are valid reasons for keeping big snakes, but ego boosts are not them.

----------


## Kodieh

The only flaw in your highly logical post is that the only real detail officially released is that the COD is asphyxiation. Now, not compression asphyxiation but just asphyxiation which is a condition of severely deficient supply of oxygen to the body that arises from being unable to breathe normally. An example of asphyxia is choking.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## sunshinenorcas

Has the full autopsy report been produced or released? From what I'd understood, it hadn't but only two things had been leaked- the COD being asphyxiation and the bite marks. Which don't say much, or explain anything without the context of other injuries. Someone could have heard 'asphyxiation' and tuned out the rest while writing the report.

If the kids got choked by an adult, there would massive, massive injuries to their necks- internal or external. If they were poisoned by carbon monoxide, there would be skin discoloration. Chest compressions, I'd imagine a lot of trauma to the chest and neck. There'd be popped vessels... there are lots of indicators for different things. Just going 'asphyxiation, must be the adult!' isn't enough. There's not enough that's been released one way or another that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, 'whodunnit'. People were asking how the snake could have done it without waking the kids, so I brought up a scenario where it could have asphyxiated them without constricting.

----------

_SquamishSerpents_ (08-14-2013)

----------


## DestinyLynette

Something's rotten in the state of Denmark.

----------


## Raven01

Whether or not the snake did kill the kids, I think we all agree that the keeping of this snake in the manner it was kept is not something any of us would condone.

FFS, I insist on corn snakes being kept in locking cages they cannot escape from because I don't want to have to search for them.  Let alone a snake over 10 feet that could pose a threat to another person or pet.  We usually know enough to have a second competent person to handle such animals as they do remain wild even if we can desensitize them to their fear response to human and they tolerate us interacting with them very well.
None of us I would hope would even consider inviting more children over if there was an escaped large snake unaccounted for.

Long and short the keeper should be charged with negligence at the very least.

Lack of clear information is not helping.  But, it seems that the snake is not really even the issue as much as an irresponsible person is.  Unless he was unaware the snake had escaped and it had never done so before.

----------

_sorraia_ (08-14-2013),sunshinenorcas (08-13-2013)

----------


## sunshinenorcas

> Whether or not the snake did kill the kids, I think we all agree that the keeping of this snake in the manner it was kept is not something any of us would condone.
> 
> FFS, I insist on corn snakes being kept in locking cages they cannot escape from because I don't want to have to search for them.  Let alone a snake over 10 feet that could pose a threat to another person or pet.  We usually know enough to have a second competent person to handle such animals as they do remain wild even if we can desensitize them to their fear response to human and they tolerate us interacting with them very well.
> None of us I would hope would even consider inviting more children over if there was an escaped large snake unaccounted for.
> 
> Long and short the keeper should be charged with negligence at the very least.
> 
> Lack of clear information is not helping.  But, it seems that the snake is not really even the issue as much as an irresponsible person is.  Unless he was unaware the snake had escaped and it had never done so before.



I agree. If it was the snake, the snake was being a snake- even if it was constricting and attempting to eat the kids. It's a snake. There's not a lot of cognitive thought in there, definitely not a lot of malice, it's just doing what it does. The owner is the one who should be held responsible, full stop. And usually in cases like this, it IS the owners (or at least, a persons) fault. It's extremely rare that an animal- any animal- kills with out some precursor whether its poor husbandary, poor socialization, poor training, or some combination, or the animal has a neurological issue (I heard a story about this really sweet dog who tore into his owner who had to be hospitalized, dog got put down, and it turned out that he had a tumor that was probably very painful which is most likely why he lashed out). It's very rare for an animal to be truly 'malicious' or 'mean' where it goes out of its way to hurt or be defensive. Most of the time, the situations are what we shape them to be.

----------


## thedarkwolf25

http://www.fox.com.au/fox-news-feed/...investigation/

----------

_Mr Oni_ (08-14-2013)

----------


## Mr Oni

For those who dont wanna click the link  :Wink: 

Investigations into two young Canadian brothers thought to be strangled by a python has taken a twist, with police now treating it as a possible murder.

Connor Barthe, 7, and brother Noah, 5, were killed while they slept in an apartment above an exotic pet store, but there were no screams.

It comes after the mother of the pair posted hundreds of photos of her boys taken last year, playing in and cleaning her neighbours snake cage.

Police have stepped up their inquiries, but wont release further details until full post mortem results are known.

Snake experts have also raised questions stating pythons seeking food always bite first.

John Marais from the African Snake Bite Institute said if it grabs a kid, youre going to have more than enough time to scream.

You cant be asleep and be bitten by a python and strangled. Thats impossible, Mr Marais told News Limited. Youre going to wake up instantly.

Its believed the non-poisonous rock python escaped its enclosure and got into the ventilation system, before slithering into the apartment where the boys were sleeping.

----------


## Chkadii

It's about time!  That was the most contrived story.... I hope the mother of those kids finds justice and peace.

----------


## CrystalRose

I'm glad to see they are looking at other possible options besides just the snake. It will be interesting to see what the outcome of this is.

----------


## Neal

When this happened my coworkers all asked me stuff regarding this and I said from day one that the facts don't add up. Now I'm just being proven right.

----------


## mrkrec

> http://www.fox.com.au/fox-news-feed/...investigation/


Yeah, this link is from back on the 8th. I haven't seen any other reports of a murder investigation since then. A quick search came up empty. Not sure how accurate this report is.

----------


## sissysnakes

> Yeah, this link is from back on the 8th. I haven't seen any other reports of a murder investigation since then. A quick search came up empty. Not sure how accurate this report is.


Ya, I looked around yesterday and didn't find any other sources backing this up. Does anyone know of a link stating the autopsy reports? All I found was that the children has been asphyxiated, but that further testing was required.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## sorraia

I tried searching for additional articles about a murder investigation (or anything besides "snake strangled two boys"), but couldn't find anything.

----------


## treeboa

I think the fact that they are taking their time proves they are looking at it as a murder. If they had real evidence against the snake, it would not hurt them, especially with public opinion, to move fast. When a human is suspected they are likely to take their time and not make their investigation public. 

As for the legality of him have the snake and other animals, if you read the article I linked to earlier it says he was given those animals 10-13 years ago when he owned a "zoo". In 2006 he no longer ran the zoo and didn't apply for permits to keep the snakes and crocodilians after that. I think he would have been denied them without being a "zoo" and keeping them in a private residence from what I've read.

----------


## mrkrec

> I think the fact that they are taking their time proves they are looking at it as a murder. If they had real evidence against the snake, it would not hurt them, especially with public opinion, to move fast. When a human is suspected they are likely to take their time and not make their investigation public. 
> 
> As for the legality of him have the snake and other animals, if you read the article I linked to earlier it says he was given those animals 10-13 years ago when he owned a "zoo". In 2006 he no longer ran the zoo and didn't apply for permits to keep the snakes and crocodilians after that. I think he would have been denied them without being a "zoo" and keeping them in a private residence from what I've read.


They already said it was asphyxiation .. What other info are they supposed to release? I don't mean to be Debbie downer here, but it looks like the case has been closed.

----------


## treeboa

> They already said it was asphyxiation .. What other info are they supposed to release? I don't mean to be Debbie downer here, but it looks like the case has been closed.


They haven't given an actual cause of death. Asphyxiation can be caused by a lot of things, CO2, hanging, manual strangulation, compression, being constricted by a snake, and probably some I'm not thinking of. If it was by constriction, it would be obvious. There would be bite marks, broken ribs, obvious bruising in the area, etc. My point was that if these were present, what reason would there be to wait for further tests, like toxicology? If the case was closed the store owner would have been charged with something. At the very least he would be guilty of endangering children and negligence for not having the snake properly secured. If they're thinking murder, you bet they are going to wait for all tests and thoroughly investigate. I'm thinking that's why we haven't heard anything further and haven't seen anything done yet.

----------

_TheSnakeGeek_ (08-15-2013)

----------


## Salamander Rising

> They haven't given an actual cause of death. Asphyxiation can be caused by a lot of things, CO2, hanging, manual strangulation, compression, being constricted by a snake, and probably some I'm not thinking of. If it was by constriction, it would be obvious. There would be bite marks, broken ribs, obvious bruising in the area, etc. My point was that if these were present, what reason would there be to wait for further tests, like toxicology? If the case was closed the store owner would have been charged with something. At the very least he would be guilty of endangering children and negligence for not having the snake properly secured. If they're thinking murder, you bet they are going to wait for all tests and thoroughly investigate. I'm thinking that's why we haven't heard anything further and haven't seen anything done yet.


http://www.retailhellunderground.com...dian-boys.html

----------

treeboa (08-16-2013)

----------


## Neal

> They already said it was asphyxiation .. What other info are they supposed to release? I don't mean to be Debbie downer here, but it looks like the case has been closed.


Not to be rude here, but if you're going to go against the grain here you might want to do some research so you have ground to stand on instead of the guy below you making you seem like somebody who needs to re-attend middle school.

Like he said asphyxiation can be caused by numerous things, it doesn't automatically mean snake. Please don't try to be more "media" and do your research next time.

----------


## ironpython

A friend of mine who is a police officer told me an autopsy will tell the difference between asphyxiation and strangulation I think there is more to this story. Its another case of the media feeding on peoples fear of snakes to get ratings.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser,  0.1 spider, 1.3 norm. 1.0 fire  0.1 RTB  0.0 sav. Mon.

----------


## thedarkwolf25

What I want to know is what KIND of asphyxia was the cause of death, if it was not compressive then it was not from the snake.

----------


## mrkrec

> Not to be rude here, but if you're going to go against the grain here you might want to do some research so you have ground to stand on instead of the guy below you making you seem like somebody who needs to re-attend middle school.
> 
> Like he said asphyxiation can be caused by numerous things, it doesn't automatically mean snake. Please don't try to be more "media" and do your research next time.


I have done the research. And that link from above, the same one posted earlier, is from the 8th. And it's the only one that talks about a murder investigation. No other major news outlet has mentioned it....

----------


## mrkrec

> I tried searching for additional articles about a murder investigation (or anything besides "snake strangled two boys"), but couldn't find anything.


Same here. Thank you.

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

> I have done the research. And that link from above, the same one posted earlier, is from the 8th. And it's the only one that talks about a murder investigation. No other major news outlet has mentioned it....


exactly. because murders happen every day. a 100 pound snake killing two boys does not. a snake story spreads like wildfire and boosts ratings. a double homicide (not to sound insensitive), happens much more frequently and does not. the news channels want the story that sells.

----------


## mrkrec

> Not to be rude here, but if you're going to go against the grain here you might want to do some research so you have ground to stand on instead of the guy below you making you seem like somebody who needs to re-attend middle school.
> 
> Like he said asphyxiation can be caused by numerous things, it doesn't automatically mean snake. Please don't try to be more "media" and do your research next time.


I hope I'm wrong, and the snake was innocent, but right now it looks like it was a freak occurrence and an irresponsible snake owner.

----------


## mrkrec

> exactly. because murders happen every day. a 100 pound snake killing two boys does not. a snake story spreads like wildfire and boosts ratings. a double homicide (not to sound insensitive), happens much more frequently and does not. the news channels want the story that sells.


So you're saying it was in fact a double homocide commited by someone in the house, not the snake, but the media doesn't care cause the snake story is better for ratings?

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

> So you're saying it was in fact a double homocide commited by someone in the house, not the snake, but the media doesn't care cause the snake story is better for ratings?


i'm not saying that's what it IS for sure. apparently the guy hasnt been charged with it. all i'm saying is "snake kills two boys" will get every news station and their mother reporting it. "double homicide being investigated," not so much.

----------


## mrkrec

> i'm not saying that's what it IS for sure. apparently the guy hasnt been charged with it. all i'm saying is "snake kills two boys" will get every news station and their mother reporting it. "double homicide being investigated," not so much.


Sure, that's possible. The media loves to have a villain, and snakes are perfect for that, in the view of the public. 

I just did another quick search, and on the 7th, the reports were that they were still investigating what happened, and haven't gotten the full report back yet. 

My issue was with the link posted above, that isn't current, as of today , the 15th. No need to post links from a week ago , IMO.

----------


## Dehlol

I'm a big snake owner and breeder, I own several large constrictors the largest being 18ft and approx 140lbs as pointed out there are many holes in the story...

Cause of death listed as asphyxiation- which a constrictor snake would not cause in a child of that size... 
No known bite marks (rumors, but none are actually confirmed).
The odds of a highly terrestrial and moderately heavily built snake going up a sheet metal style vent system.... Highly unlikely.
The snake crashing through the ceiling, and after all that, seeking out/attacking anything... 
The snake according to records was fed 2 decent meals 4 days before the incident... going after 2 huge prey items? Doubt it..

Now- what people need to realize- the snake was found in the room with dead boys = instant story, ratings, hits etc. If the snake comes out the bad guy = news keeps reporting instantly/quickly because lets face it, big snake killing 2 children sells very well, you better believe if evidence would have come back against the snake it would be all over, we only had a very brief media storm over the first facts... nothing else.

Now, it would be extremely easy for a coroner to determine the snake was cause of death, massive bite marks, bruising, etc etc. It would be very obvious, they would have no problem releasing this information readily because no foul play is involved here... 

If the snake was innocent (as all signs do point), they wouldn't release any info, because it's a criminal investigation at this point, they don't feel like they can accurately blame the animal for the crime, and can't release that. Lets say it comes back as double homicide, CO2 etc... That won't make TV.. You think the news wants to get on prime time and say "It turns out the snake was innocent, CO2 or the owner killed the boys". The media would look stupid, they wouldn't have their evil snake to paint a picture of, and the story wouldn't be nearly as enthralling for viewers to talk about..

It would take a complete fool to look at this case and think the snake caused the death of these 2 kids based on the information currently provided. That is just fact.

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-16-2013),*bcr229* (08-16-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (08-16-2013),_OctagonGecko729_ (08-16-2013),_purplemuffin_ (08-16-2013),_sorraia_ (08-16-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> I'm a big snake owner and breeder, I own several large constrictors the largest being 18ft and approx 140lbs as pointed out there are many holes in the story...
> 
> Cause of death listed as asphyxiation- which a constrictor snake would not cause in a child of that size... 
> No known bite marks (rumors, but none are actually confirmed).
> The odds of a highly terrestrial and moderately heavily built snake going up a sheet metal style vent system.... Highly unlikely.
> The snake crashing through the ceiling, and after all that, seeking out/attacking anything... 
> The snake according to records was fed 2 decent meals 4 days before the incident... going after 2 huge prey items? Doubt it..
> 
> Now- what people need to realize- the snake was found in the room with dead boys = instant story, ratings, hits etc. If the snake comes out the bad guy = news keeps reporting instantly/quickly because lets face it, big snake killing 2 children sells very well, you better believe if evidence would have come back against the snake it would be all over, we only had a very brief media storm over the first facts... nothing else.
> ...


amen

----------


## mrkrec

Article from 2 days ago..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...s-escaped.html

----------


## Archimedes

> Article from 2 days ago..
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...s-escaped.html


Human error at the start of the article, then it phases into "I've kept other snakes in there just fine, this one though was a 'vicious' demon that somehow figured out exactly what it needed to do to escape and did it."

While I believe that some snakes are genuine escape artists, he'd this snake for 13 years, and should have known its habits by now. If it liked to try to find a way out, leaving a fan vent open is not the way to prevent such an escape.

Just sad because this should have been entirely preventable. The way he makes it sound, that fan hasn't been in its proper place for a long time now, since he "can't remember" when it came out. He should be charged with neglect and reckless endangerment, if nothing else. Can't claim to charge him for anything more than that, but if more evidence comes forward that makes this situation worse, they'll have something to build on.

----------

_sorraia_ (08-16-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

I like how they're jumping to conclusions while there is "still an on going criminal investigation". Obviously that means the snake didn't do it, or they'd have closed it after they euthanized the snake. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## treeboa

> Article from 2 days ago..
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...s-escaped.html


The guy they interviewed in the article is the same moron that claimed this guy had the snake legally. I don't know why they are still listening to him. He does not know what he is talking about.

----------


## Dehlol

Yeah... It's going to make a straight up vertical climb through a vent system.... Vents are pretty smooth metal, so this heavy bodied snake went 90 degrees straight up and didn't break any vent systems until above the room....

I'm going to guess either the following.

Carbon monoxide from the snake somehow falling (I haven't seen diagrams on how the vent system works, in case the snake DID get up there). OR

Double homicide, guy took out the fan, put a hole in the ceiling, , and placed the snake in the room before calling police to have a scape goat...

I'm willing to bet his vent system isn't even big enough to accommodate the snake either....

I keep getting grief about this from strangers who find out I keep large snakes, and I have to take 15 minutes to explain the logistics of exactly how impossible this stuff is...

----------


## MarkS

It's been touched on before but I think it's important to mention it again.  If the cause of death is asphyxiation then it wasn't caused by constriction.  Constriction from a snake that size doesn't just stop the lungs from working, it also stops the heart from pumping and the blood from circulating. Constriction from a snake that size is going to show up as cardiac arrest, not asphyxiation.

----------


## ironpython

I saw an article on Facebook it said they are calling it a murder investigation now, apparently the mother had made several calls to people talking about the snake as if to be establish an alibi and a snake expert told the police that they would have woken up up and there would be snake bite marks on the boys. 

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser,  0.1 spider, 1.3 norm. 1.0 fire  0.1 RTB  0.0 sav. Mon.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-19-2013)

----------


## SquamishSerpents

That is a false article with no sources, from Australia, no less. 

People can we please stop beating this dead horse? 

There is nothing left to question or speculate. Answers either will, or will not come out. Nobody knows. So wait patiently.

----------


## Dehlol

> That is a false article with no sources, from Australia, no less. 
> 
> People can we please stop beating this dead horse? 
> 
> There is nothing left to question or speculate. Answers either will, or will not come out. Nobody knows. So wait patiently.


Nobody knows? I know the snake alone was not what killed these kids, just like I know I have on a pair of shorts right now, and I know I just cleaned up a gallon of retic piss from my snake room floor. 

Not a dead horse if people still are so naive to believe the snake actually did what is claimed.  :Wink:

----------


## SquamishSerpents

I don't believe anything without facts present, which there are none of.

----------


## sorraia

Here's an article from the 17th (2 days ago). It touches on this case (while mostly talking about 40 ball pythons seized from a motel room), stating it is an ongoing criminal investigation. 
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.1429707

Another article, from the 12th, indicating ongoing criminal investigation:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...-brampton.html

I can't find anything else on the matter.

----------


## Kensa

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...ton-blood.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...oys-death.html

And it is a criminal investigation. Looks like the shop owner is at the very least being investigated for criminal negligence causing death.

Whether or not the snake did in fact asphyxiate those boys is a moot point in my opinion. The circumstances surrounding their deaths, as well as a few other news stories lately, may have a negative impact on our hobby, but we as a group need to unify instead of trying to redirect blame. The masses don't care that the vast majority of us can/do keep these pets responsibly, they only see the bad keepers that portray our hobby in a negative light.

----------

_BFE Pets_ (08-23-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-23-2013),_OctagonGecko729_ (08-23-2013),_sorraia_ (08-23-2013)

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

Still under investigation.

----------


## Slitherous

> Still under investigation.


Thanks for that update. Let's hope that the Canadian authorities are wise enough to consult with actual python experts before placing the blame firmly on the snake, (a scenario many of us regard as doubtful at best). 

S

----------


## treeboa

> Thanks for that update. Let's hope that the Canadian authorities are wise enough to consult with actual python experts before placing the blame firmly on the snake, (a scenario many of us regard as doubtful at best). 
> 
> S


Actually I think the fact that they are still investigating means they are doing just that. I think, with the publicity and public outcry, it would have been easy for them to just place all the blame on the snake and go for "quick justice." I admire the RCMP for taking their time on this.

----------


## Shera

Thanks for the update.  I have a feeling that this was a case of foul play, too many things just don't add up.

----------


## Slitherous

Well, the news media is at it again. This is unrelated to the alleged "_python attack_" in New Brunswick, but it is just as skewed and mis-informative as that story was. Here is a story airing today on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/19/us/new...nn-disqus-area, which is a story about the legal travails of Snakeman's Exotics in New York state. Of course the fact that his animals were well-kept and healthy was mentioned but buried in the article, the headline was "_850 snakes part of New York man's home business, authorities say_", the news being that someone had 850 snakes at his home, (oh horrors of horrors!). At most the guy may have a few issues with zoning laws, but from what I can see the guy is a responsible herper. Why this deserves to make the national news obviously has nothing to do with husbandry, but everything to do with sensationalism. There was also another link to a news article about a ball python collection which was confiscated: http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/16/world/...ons/index.html.

Folks,  I fear the wolves are at the door. The powers of ignorance and bigotry are alive and well in North America!

S

----------


## kat_black181

I really wish people would do their own proper research before spewing garbage out of their mouths... 

Makes me crazy to hear someone say, "Oh, just wait til that snake gets older, it's gonna eat you in your sleep." 

The media takes these animals and paints them as monsters. Sad, but the animals are the ones who mostly suffer from this. And that makes me even more sad.

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/review-...mier-1.1463169

----------


## Slitherous

Thanks for the update. I noticed the article DID NOT say "allegedly" killed by a python, just "killed by a python". At least we know the police are still investigating. I took a year of journalism classes in college, and have yet to see anything written about this incident that I would call journalistic; makes me wonder if the news media there know the definition of the word.

S

----------


## Libby

Last month I was at a small aquarium with an exhibit of several large burms and retics. The guy doing the snake demo talked about how dangerous these animals are and told everyone there about the 'Burmese python" in Canada that had recently killed two children.

When the supposed expert is giving this spiel to tourists three times a day...

----------


## Slitherous

> Last month I was at a small aquarium with an exhibit of several large burms and retics. The guy doing the snake demo talked about how dangerous these animals are and told everyone there about the 'Burmese python" in Canada that had recently killed two children.
> 
> When the supposed expert is giving this spiel to tourists three times a day...


"Supposed" expert is correct. Most zoos and aquariums train docents in the "_no-one-but-zoos-should-keep-exotics_" mentality, (as espoused by the AAZPA, Humane Society, PETA, etc). Some expert, doesn't even know the difference between a Burm and an African Rock. Truth is a large python _can be_ dangerous, but the circumstances surrounding the incident in New Brunswick doesn't add up to death by python in my opinion; something else happened in that house. In the meantime the news media will go with the sensational headline before the facts every time.



S

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (09-23-2013)

----------


## Libby

> "Supposed" expert is correct. Most zoos and aquariums train docents in the "_no-one-but-zoos-should-keep-exotics_" mentality, (as espoused by the AAZPA, Humane Society, PETA, etc). Some expert, doesn't even know the difference between a Burm and an African Rock. Truth is a large python _can be_ dangerous, but the circumstances surrounding the incident in New Brunswick doesn't add up to death by python in my opinion; something else happened in that house. In the meantime the news media will go with the sensational headline before the facts every time.


Agree with you on all points. I should mention the speaker wasn't a docent. It was a VERY small facility and the staff who care for the animals and dive in the tanks show the guests around.

I'm still a newbie, but I was also unimpressed with the husbandry. There were two crowded enclosures, both had multiple snakes in them. (Is it ok to house more than one Burmese or Retic together? Like I said, I'm pretty new.) I don't know what the temps/humidity were like, but at least one snake looked like it had had a really bad shed.

To be completely fair, the staff seemed to really care about the animals and were very protective of the ones that were brought out for interaction with the public (a Burm and a baby gator). They also mentioned that some of the large snakes had come from private owners who were no longer able to care for them, and the patchy ones MAY have arrived there that way. Or not.

----------


## Slitherous

> Agree with you on all points. I should mention the speaker wasn't a docent. It was a VERY small facility and the staff who care for the animals and dive in the tanks show the guests around.
> 
> I'm still a newbie, but I was also unimpressed with the husbandry. There were two crowded enclosures, both had multiple snakes in them. (*Is it ok to house more than one Burmese or Retic together?* Like I said, I'm pretty new.) I don't know what the temps/humidity were like, but at least one snake looked like it had had a really bad shed.
> 
> To be completely fair, the staff seemed to really care about the animals and were very protective of the ones that were brought out for interaction with the public (a Burm and a baby gator). They also mentioned that some of the large snakes had come from private owners who were no longer able to care for them, and the patchy ones MAY have arrived there that way. Or not.


Usually not a great idea, but as long as they are fed separately and kept clean I guess it's possible, (but not really recommended). Problems I've personally seen in such situations are lack of hygiene, (stink, mites, mess), and then I saw one instance in a pet store years ago in SoCal where two bigger burms were stupidly fed together inside their single enclosure, (by a _very_ dumb employee of the store). The two snakes ended up striking/constricting one rabbit at the same time, the guy called for help but even then they were barely able to pry one of them off that rabbit, (and each other, had to pull that big ball 'o snakes _and_ the rabbit all the way out of their cage to do it); it was quite a good floor show actually, very entertaining to watch. Had they not gotten them apart the larger of the two would have just kept going and swallowed the other...rabbit and all. Back then, (waayy back then), I had 3 Burms in the 12'-14' range, (no Retics or African rocks though, both species were too nasty tempered for me), but had separate enclosures for them. I'm only keeping Balls nowadays, but _did_ keep the biggies when I was young, spry and less wise, (glad I outgrew that particular "phase" of my herping life). 
So, the incident in New Brunswick sounds _very_ unlikely to me, and I can say that having had hands-on experience with big pythons they _are_ dangerous if taken for granted, but two children at once with no one hearing any commotion? Possible, yes......probable, no! I admit that an African Rock and a Burmese are polar opposites as far as temperament goes, and if you want to get badly bitten be incautious with an AR. However, I still can't imagine a circumstance where an AR would, or even_ could_ constrict two kids to death at once like it was described in the news....knowing what I know it just doesn't make any sense.

S

----------

Libby (09-24-2013),_sorraia_ (09-24-2013)

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

Tougher exotic pet laws promised following python deaths
I'm still curious what has become of the criminal investigation.

----------


## Slitherous

> Tougher exotic pet laws promised following python deaths
> I'm still curious what has become of the criminal investigation.


The article mentioned that there was still an investigation going on, but didn't say anything else. I bet despite what the investigation reveals the regulations will be stiffened. At this point the government has to be seen as doing something, they can't ignore the publicity this event created; _they will_ eventually do something. Whether it's something based on fact and science is another matter, it will most likely be a knee-jerk reaction which further restricts reptile keeping.....too bad.

S

----------


## CrystalRose

Just an update about this case.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...lton-1.2946509

----------

*bcr229* (02-05-2015)

----------


## bcr229

Thanks.  I see the lunacy and ignorance have already taken hold in the comments.

----------

_CrystalRose_ (02-05-2015),_KING JAMES_ (02-05-2015)

----------


## KING JAMES

Why did you have to mention the comments...my day would have been so much better if I would not have went back and scrolled down to see the comments LOL

----------


## CrystalRose

> Thanks.  I see the lunacy and ignorance have already taken hold in the comments.

----------


## SnakeBalls

Not sure if anyone has posted an update yet. Sad story all around, unfortunate that 3 human lives were ruined and probably the poor snake too!

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2...h-of-boys.html

----------


## kitedemon

:Mad:  such a small article for such a long story there is more missing than is included. I actually have met Jean-Claude the snake owner and visited the shop/zoo (used in loose of terms...) it was a mess 7 years ago. It is the oddest case ever, the facts as we understand at this point are super sketchy. The snake left an enclosure (originally designed to house crocodilians) through a ceiling vent that had no cover (negligence IMO) the snake made its way upstairs and came through a ceiling vent to where the boys were sleeping on the living room floor. I guess it dropped down to the floor level (without waking anyone...?) and killed one boy then went on to kill the second. (still not waking anyone up??) 

African Rock pythons need a zoo permit in NB they have for years. The stupid part is DNR gave reptile ocean a zoo permit, and actually the snake in question was seized and released to Reptile Ocean for 'safe' keeping. They then allowed the zoo permit to lapse and the yearly inspections stopped because they no longer possessed a permit. DNR also never removed the snake or other illegal animals they had records of.

There case is in the courts now and heads are going to roll, DNR heads and the snake owner is cooked (IMO) there is no way he can defend a snake escaping through a 8 inch vent shaft that had no grill or cover of any kind. 

It makes me furious, those kids should never have died! The media sh1t show has caused no end of panic in the area (where I live) a few months ago a owner of a baby ball python told the super of his apartment building that his baby snake escaped and the resulting memo advised the other tenants to keep their children and pets supervised because the missing python could kill them. DNR is reviewing all snake ownership, and every snake is being called into question. It is such a mess. I saw the poor conditions the animals at reptile Ocean were housed under and the poor attitude of the staff that worked there. 

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/owner-o...ing-1.1423259#
http://globalnews.ca/news/769386/mis...cean-employee/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...flaw-1.1384533

fall out...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...bies-1.2651165

I can't help making the link released pets, python scare, dnr taking expensive permits, apartments that allowed snakes now changing their minds and threatening evictions. Could there be a relation? gee...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...oman-1.1300417

 :Taz:

----------


## SnakeBalls

The plot thickens! I don't understand why a snake would kill/'attack' 2 kids (or anything for that matter) unless there was some sort of struggle and the snake reacted or it smelled like food. Heat + breathing movement + human boy smell = serial killer python? Maybe mom or dad decided on a late abortion?

----------

_kitedemon_ (04-01-2015)

----------


## kitedemon

They apparently visited a farm that morning and were playing with goats or something. But it is still odd a large snake constricting dropping and moving on to the next? Not attempting to eat just to kill? Makes no sense. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. My boss was called for an interview it is the first time I have ever seen her speechless. She could make no sense of why a snake would kill and not try to feed. All she managed was 'they don't do that.' The media never wanted to hear this so they didn't bother and found someone else to talk to who had more sensational things to say. The only coverage she got was a generic experts are baffled by the behaviour. Every snake person i know doesn't get it either.

The whole thing is hinky. The two kids were guests the boy they were visiting was asleep in his room, my experiences with sleep overs was a big thing in the friends room. How does a 90 lb snake come out of a vent 8 feet off the floor and not make a big crash? Maybe, but mine make a thump falling 10 inches and weighing only 8 lbs. There are too many questions and few answers.

The though there is something more than just poor ownership that it was intentional has been bantered around since it happened. I can't say that, but the negligence laws in my area have some serious teeth. Two counts of criminal negligence causing death carry two life sentences. Murder of criminal negligence causing death there is a defence for murder (crime of passion, insanity, ect.) criminal negligence causing death you were or were not, once the facts are figured it is hard to defend. It almost doesn't matter. I feel sorry for the mother (friend of the snakes owner) and completely mad at the rest, It should never have happened, the media mess, the fall out all of it.

----------


## SCWood

Here's my usual work day


1.2 Normal
1.1 Red-tail
0.1 Albino corn

----------


## bcr229

I thought constrictors killed by cardiac arrest and not asphyxiation?

----------

_kitedemon_ (04-01-2015),Megg (10-07-2015)

----------


## Darkbird

There is already a long thread here somewhere about this, is there any new info or is everything still hung up in the courts?

----------


## Daigga

The death of the boys is very sad and I don't think anyone denies it was a tragedy. I do find it strange that even a snake known for a foul temper would just kill two boys without making an attempt to eat either, let alone that it was able to kill one and the other did nothing to get away or get help. The whole thing smells like foul play to me and I wish they'd investigate more than just neglect.

I don't see why they would revisit exotic ownership laws, seeing as the species in question was already illegal to own. The department that oversees those laws is probably in for a world of crap, though.

----------

_kitedemon_ (04-01-2015)

----------


## DVirginiana

That whole thing sounded suspicious when I first heard it. 
I saw some of the craziness that went on afterward.  I read one article where the police got called over someone's abandoned ball python...

----------


## kitedemon

> There is already a long thread here somewhere about this, is there any new info or is everything still hung up in the courts?


They just got around to arresting the snake/business owner and charged him with criminal negligence causing death the end of last month (he fled the provence). It is waiting trial I think not sure however. It is clear that there is a lot of people in trouble with this.

I agree that it should not effect current laws but you know, they seem to think making new laws will control illegal pets more will work when the old laws making them illegal did.  :Confused:  or something... Or maybe they are trying to save themselves by implying that the snake was legal and NOW it is not legal... The whole situation is a mess. Someone whom has for many years claimed to be a 'reptile expert' should know better (I mean how large would a snake have to be to NOT fit in a even a 6 inch tube?) 

It is so sad, the whole thing should never have happened.

----------


## Bluebonnet Herp

http://news.sky.com/story/1456531/ma...lled-by-python

----------


## dr del

Didn't believe it then, don't believe it now.

look Ma! I'm onna phone!

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (04-01-2015)

----------


## OhhWatALoser

Amazing how careful they are with their words, notice they never say the snake killed them? Atleast I can't see anything wrong in there, just obviously trying to lead you to a wrong conclusion.

----------


## kitedemon

I hate media people they twist and spin everything. 

I am in NS, I have a lot of NB friends, my breeder is in NB. It is a mess and the media are making bad worse by half truths and innuendo. I cannot stomach the pages of posts, sorry, I am too close to this. It is tragic an senseless and completely avoidable. I have been to the shop, Reptile Ocean, met the snake owner once or twice and am likely going to be effected by DNR changes.

things I know to be true.

The owner had a zoo permit and DNR placed animals they seized with him, including the 'rock in question. The permit lapsed, yet no one from DNR did anything they just stopped bringing new animals and stopped doing the inspections involved in meeting the zoo permit requirements.

The shop was not the best I have been in nor the worst but the feeling of neglect was everywhere on my last visit many years ago. (Things not as clean as the should be, poor paint quality, messy... like the passion was gone.)

The 'expert' owner should have known that an African Rock can climb and fit inside a large vent shaft if there was no grill or fan to prevent it. I think we all would believe this is a escape waiting to happen.

He left the province and has been picked up and returned for trial. 

It is odd behaviour for any snake. 

The boys were at a farm with in 24 hours of the incident.

They were at a sleep over but the third child was not in the room with them he was in his own bedroom.

What I believe,

There are far more questions than answers.

There is more going on than we are being told.

That it is likely to effect the government staff as well.

I can't see how unless there is some procedure failing that the snake owner is not negligent. There was nothing over the vent duct it was wide open. (6 or 8 inch duct at that.) 

It is going to effect the laws regarding exotic animal ownership in our area. (already has in fact.) 

I am very sad that two boys died. I believe that this is 100% preventable and should never have happened. It is no mystery how the snake escaped, it is a mystery why the missing fan and grill was allowed to be missing for some time.

----------


## artgecko

I just happened to be listening to an interview about this case on an old urban jungles radio a couple nights ago and he interviewed the wildlife expert they called in to identify reptiles and take illegal ones.  That expert said that the hole in the ceiling looked "old" to him, like it had been there for a long time and that the cage was only about 8' away from the boys, so in his opinion, it had no need to climb into duct work if it was after the boys.  

For me... This whole thing is fishy.  I could believe that a large constrictor could kill 1 small child, but killing 2 right next to each other without the second one waking up and to crash through the ceiling without making any noise to wake people up?  Unless the boys had been drugged so that they wouldn't wake up or the owner wasn't even there to hear the noise, I just don't see how this could happen in a real-life situation. 

This situation is definitely negligence at best... But I keep thinking that it is more than that.  

kitedemon-  I am so sorry that you and many others will be effected by this.. this is just a tragic situation all around. :/

----------

_kitedemon_ (04-02-2015)

----------


## artgecko

There's an interview o the reptile guy they had come in an identify animals (after the original event) on urban jungles radio.  HE said that the cage for the snake was about 8' away from where the boys were sleeping and that there was no need for it to climb into a vent and that the hole in the ceiling looked old to him (preexisting).  I did not hear the whole interview, just what UJR had put up on video on youtube.  

I find this all very hard to swallow... and my assumption is that there was something more intentional to this, whether that be drugging of the kids (so they wouldn't react), or something else, but common sense says that things couldn't have happened as the media and police are depicting them.  Unless the police are maybe not telling all the evidence (so they can wait and charge him at trial or something)?

----------


## das_nooblet

Heard on the new today that the trial for this case has finally started. Figured I'd resurrect this thread rather than starting a whole new one.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/python-...?autoPlay=true

Admittedly, I am still an amateur herper, and with limited knowledge about the larger species. Nonetheless, some of the statements presented in court so far have me alternately face-palming or going "Duh, of course it will react in X fashion if you're doing action Y to it."  :Confused: 

Any giant keepers care to weigh in?

----------


## Macropodus

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2016/...-as-slept.html

----------


## bcr229

Original thread...
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...k-python/page2

----------


## bcr229

What bothers me is that the autopsy on the boys states that they were killed via asphyxiation.  Large constrictors kill via cardiac arrest.

I'm not a doctor so I don't know if the two would be discernible or not on an autopsy.

----------


## butterballpython

Maybe I just have a suspicious mind, but my first thought, considering the way that species usually kills and eats, is that it just might be a double murder set up to blame the snake.  Some of the first things I'd check are life insurance policies and child support liabilities and payments or missed payments, and not necessarily those of the snake owner.  People have paid off others to "take care of business" before.  

Then again, maybe I just have a suspicious mind.

----------


## o.r hill

The CTV story mentions that the boys had numerous wounds which would fit a python bite.  But the fact that they did not wake up does not make sense. Makes me think that drink or drugs are involved.  The officers description of the snakes super aggressive behavior sounds off.

----------


## paroxysm

just saw this story, very tragic.
any thoughts? this doesn't seem very likely to me. may they rest in peace.

----------


## Stewart_Reptiles

> just saw this story, very tragic.
> any thoughts? this doesn't seem very likely to me. may they rest in peace.


*Merged to the original thread from 4 years ago.*

----------

