# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics > Is This A Morph? / What Morph Is This? >  Is this a Fire Ball??

## simpsonke

Can I get some help with this snake? Do you think this is a Fire Ball??

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## Inknsteel

Looks fire to me. The head spot is the key...  :Good Job:

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## VEXER19

> looks fire to me. The head spot is the key...


x2

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## The Serpent Merchant

> Looks fire to me. The head spot is the key...


x3

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## dragonboy4578

Did you buy it as a fire. I have a few normals with head spots just like that. If it was bought as a normal the only way to be sure it is a fire is to prove it out.

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_Anatopism_ (02-09-2012)

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## Kinra

> Did you buy it as a fire. I have a few normals with head spots just like that. If it was bought as a normal the only way to be sure it is a fire is to prove it out.


X2

You can't just go by the head spot.  Honestly to me it looks more like a normal.  The color doesn't look quite right, the head spot isn't very pronounced and it doesn't have a banned pattern that is typical with fires.  I'm also not seeing any flames that I've noticed are also common with fires.  That being said only breeding will tell you for sure.

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## angllady2

If it is a fire, it is a very poor fire.  Fires should be bright, creamy looking snakes.  Not dark dull animals like this one.

Here is my fire boy for comparison:


He's the one on the right.  Not the one in blue.

Gale

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## FatBoy

Too dark.....Post a pic of the belly, looks kinda like a yellowbelly from the top view. JMO

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## Amon Ra Reptiles

Ive seen fires that didn't have the head spots. That's not a for sure thing. But even the ones that didn't have head spots were bright colored and had the banded pattern.

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## R&DP

It looks like a light colored Normal to me. I could be wrong, Let's see a belly shot.
This is a Fire !

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## Domepiece

> too dark.....post a pic of the belly, looks kinda like a yellowbelly from the top view. Jmo


x2

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## Freakie_frog

Agreed doesn't look like a fire to me

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## aalomon

Another vote for a belly pic. He looks a lot closer to my yb than to my fire...

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## greghall

Possible,If its not from a proven line Its got to be proven Black eyed producer :Wink:  to be a fire?

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_dragonboy4578_ (02-01-2012)

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## ReptilesK2

Here's what my fire looks like:

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## apple2

IMO it's a normal. If it IS a fire it is a fairly low quality one. I'd return him/her if you bought as a fire. Even if it is a fire, you could probably do better elsewhere and have less doubt.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> Did you buy it as a fire. I have a few normals with head spots just like that. If it was bought as a normal the only way to be sure it is a fire is to prove it out.


This... 

Was it purchased as a fire? Because if you just bought a random normal snake off of someone or from a store, then it's not a fire. If you purchased it from a reputable breeder as a fire, then that's what it should be. 

Also, there have been a lot of people "selling" BPs on craigslist who are just kids who bought the snake from a pet store or at an expo as a normal, saw pictures of fires, thought their light normal looked like one, and turned around and tried to say it was a fire when it was very obviously not one.

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_dragonboy4578_ (02-01-2012)

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## simpsonke

Thanks for all the responses. I will try to put up a belly shot tonight. Dont think this is a yellow belly but sounds like its not a Fire either. Purchased as a normal just noticed the head markings, blushing and coloration might be Fire. Wishful thinking.

Is it just me or are nice female Fires hared to come by?

@*R&DP* That is a nice fire. Where did you get that?

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## Inknsteel

My bad. I was under the assumption that it was purchased as a fire and this thread was to confirm. I've been looking at a lot of fires lately and have seen some that look similar in coloration to this one that were marked as fire. I would agree that if it is a fire, it's a low quality one IMO due to coloration. But being that you purchased as a normal, I take back my original post and will say normal until proven otherwise.

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Fila (02-09-2012)

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## greghall

> Thanks for all the responses. I will try to put up a belly shot tonight. Dont think this is a yellow belly but sounds like its not a Fire either. Purchased as a normal just noticed the head markings, blushing and coloration might be Fire. Wishful thinking.
> 
> Is it just me or are nice female Fires hared to come by?
> 
> @*R&DP* That is a nice fire. Where did you get that?


Im keeping all of mine :Wink:

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## aalomon

> Thanks for all the responses. I will try to put up a belly shot tonight. Dont think this is a yellow belly but sounds like its not a Fire either. Purchased as a normal just noticed the head markings, blushing and coloration might be Fire. Wishful thinking.
> 
> Is it just me or are nice female Fires hared to come by?
> 
> @*R&DP* That is a nice fire. Where did you get that?


Most people tend to hold onto their really nice female fires. There are just too many cool combos for them to part with them.

This is my girl. Took me a while to find on for sale I liked.

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JustMeBC (02-08-2012)

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## Kinra

> Thanks for all the responses. I will try to put up a belly shot tonight. Don’t think this is a yellow belly but sounds like it’s not a Fire either. Purchased as a normal just noticed the head markings, blushing and coloration might be Fire. Wishful thinking.
> 
> Is it just me or are nice female Fires hared to come by?
> 
> @*R&DP* That is a nice fire. Where did you get that?


There are a lot of normals that have head markings.  I have a proven breeder normal that has a weird head marking but she's still a normal.


Additionally, normals come in a lot of shades and patterns.  For example, here is one of my normals that I think is super pretty.  She's really light and has nice banding and a head marking, but she's nothing special.


I've also seen a lot of fires for sale that look more like normals to me.  Fires are one of those morphs that just get better with age.  My girl was bought as a male and she was still the nicest fire I saw at the show.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


It's rare to luck out and buy a normal and have it turn out to be something else, but depending on the seller you will find some hets sold as normals.

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## python_addict

normal

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## R&DP

> Thanks for all the responses. I will try to put up a belly shot tonight. Dont think this is a yellow belly but sounds like its not a Fire either. Purchased as a normal just noticed the head markings, blushing and coloration might be Fire. Wishful thinking.
> 
> Is it just me or are nice female Fires hared to come by?
> 
> @*R&DP* That is a nice fire. Where did you get that?


 I got my Fire from a local breeder, Spectrum Serpents. They don't have a website, but pm me and I can give you the phone number.  :Snake:

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## Salamander Rising

> Most people tend to hold onto their really nice female fires. There are just too many cool combos for them to part with them.
> 
> This is my girl. Took me a while to find on for sale I liked.


Beautiful!

I wish my Fire looked that  good!



He's only 8 months old.
Hopefully he'll get better with age.

 :Smile:

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## Salamander Rising

> Here's what my fire looks like:


*Seriously* hot Fire!

How old is it?

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## snakesRkewl

Fire female...


Fire male...


I don't think the op's snake is a fire, a belly shot would confirm it.
I have never seen a real fire that didn't have the head spot and would never buy one without it.

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## SlitherinSisters

I agree that it looks like a normal. I have a couple girls that have head spots like that.

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## simpsonke

Thanks again to all who replied. Still working on the belly shot. What are we looking for in the belly of a Fire?

I wonder with all he variation and difficulty identifying Fires from Normals, how do you know them from each other in a clutch? As a co-dom statistically only half of the clutch will be Fire. Is it easier to tell when they are first hatched?

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## Shewter325

Its hard to tell with fires, but one thing i have heard several times with fires and cinnys is half the eye ball being white. It looks like yours has that trait.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> Its hard to tell with fires, but one thing i have heard several times with fires and cinnys is half the eye ball being white. It looks like yours has that trait.


I don't know of any ball python that has half of the eye white. A fire may have lighter eyes or the top half where the eye stripe runs through the eye will be lighter, but not white.

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## CLSpider

> I don't know of any ball python that has half of the eye white. A fire may have lighter eyes or the top half where the eye stripe runs through the eye will be lighter, but not white.


I actually own one with white/black eyes. Bottom is black. Top is white. Not green, not gold, not yellow, not even a yellow tint. Just white. As far as I know, she's only a normal...
When I find my camera, I can take better pictures, if you'd like. Unfortunately I only have my phone right now.
*edit* wow, I'm sorry, I'm using tapatalk and the photo quality loaded way worse than it actually looks.

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## Skittles1101

Here is my fire



I'm voting for normal too.

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## simpsonke

Here is a belly shot of this snake. The head patter is there, the light eye is there. What do you think about the belly??

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Nobody is going to tell you it is a fire ball because there is no way to know. It wasn't purchased from a reputable breeder as a fire ball therefore the only way to prove it is to breed it to a fire ball. If you get a black eyed Leucistic, then you can say its a fire. Until then, it's a normal.

It would be irresponsible for anyone to try to say yes you definitely have a fire ball just based on color and head stamp. These things are not that uncommon with normals.

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## simpsonke

I agree. There is no way to know for certain without proving her out with another known fire.

I wonder how (if) breeders are able to sort out the fires from the normals in a clutch if there is no sure 'fire' way to tell them apart. Unless you cross a super to a super there is some percentage of a clutch that could be normal. That means there could be some percentage of fires that are sold as normals or normals sold as fires.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Of course they can pick out their fires if they bred a known fire to a normal. Then you know exactly what you have. When you see them beside the other babies, especially after their first shed, it's obvious. 

Just like I have no problem at all picking out the Russo hets from the normals in my clutches. After you've produced them from proven morphs it's easy to tell. If you know for certain what you're starting with, then you know what you'll end up with. Breeders develop an eye for the subtle morphs. It's no different than a breeder being able to pick their mystics from a clutch. Or their specters. 

If you are starting with a "dinker" however, you don't know exactly what you have, therefore you don't know what you'll get. Even if you got babies that looked like the dam, you still couldn't say they were fires until you produced a leucy. All BPs reproduce their selves. Wether they are a morph or not. Color and pattern is passed on. This is why all the time we see people talking about how they bred this dinker to that dinker and they produced babies that looked just like the sire or dam. Ive seen a lot of these where those dinkers looked like regular jungle patterned normals and they were just producing babies with the same cool pattern but nothing more. 

The point is, the more a person pushes for a yes answer, the more they be told it must be bred to be proven. All we can do when it comes to possible subtle morphs is give our opinion. Our opinion is what will help you decide the best mate for breeding to ultimately prove if its a morph or not.

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_coldbloodaddict_ (02-09-2012)

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## Crz89

It looks like a normal to me here's my fire for comparison  I hope the picture shows 


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=25.706973,-80.285323
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## coldbloodaddict

Wrong color for a Fire.

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## Vitto

> I have never seen a real fire that didn't have the head spot and would never buy one without it.




I have a male Fire that came directly from Mike Wilbanks. He has no/maybe slight head stamp, more just blushing. I also know for a fact he is a Fire. 

This is him next to my female Vanilla dinker. Heck, my Vanilla dinker girl has a better head stamp then him. 

Fire (Left) - Vanilla (Right)

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## Salamander Rising

> I have a male Fire that came directly from Mike Wilbanks. He has no/maybe slight head stamp, more just blushing. I also know for a fact he is a Fire. 
> 
> This is him next to my female Vanilla dinker. Heck, my Vanilla dinker girl has a better head stamp then him. 
> 
> Fire (Left) - Vanilla (Right)


*OMG* I *love* her crazy pattern!

 :Surprised:

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## Vitto

> *OMG* I *love* her crazy pattern!


Ya i love it too! Her and her sister have these elaborate patterns. I trying to see if it's genetic and a variation of the Trick Ball.

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## snakesRkewl

> I have a male Fire that came directly from Mike Wilbanks. He has no/maybe slight head stamp, more just blushing. I also know for a fact he is a Fire. 
> 
> This is him next to my female Vanilla dinker. Heck, my Vanilla dinker girl has a better head stamp then him. 
> 
> Fire (Left) - Vanilla (Right)


Even with that picture I can see the head spot on your fire.
I stick with my statement, I would never buy a fire that didn't have a prominent head spot.
Vanillas have the same or similar head spot because it's on the same allele with fire, just like yb and specter are similar, same allele.

OP: thats a normal, not a fire, wrong color, wrong belly pattern.
Fires from what I've had and seen do not have wide squiggly lines running down the belly...

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## Salamander Rising

> Ya i love it too! Her and her sister have these elaborate patterns. I trying to see if it's genetic and a variation of the Trick Ball.


If it is, I *must* have one when she has babies!

She is absolutely, utterly _awesome_!

Her pattern reminds me of ancient Celtic bronze work.

*Gorgeous*!

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