# Other Pythons > General Pythons >  Kittens For Food?

## CottonMouth

Just want to start by saying, this is NOT something I'd ever do or or recommend at all! I LOVE CATS! Just a discussion. 

But little background info, was speaking with a few members at an Animal Rescue shelter and they were telling me how bad the cat population currently is and how they simply can't keep up with the amount of stray and abandoned cats. People are simply not getting their cats fixed and they are reproducing uncontrollably. Plus it's hard to find owners/buyers due to the fact sites like Kijiji and Craigslist people are simply giving them away for free. 
One member joked that we might have to start feeding them to snakes. It was a joke but just got me thinking and thought it could be something to discuss. 

One could argue, what makes a life of a cat more precious than a hamster, rat, rabbit...
And by doing it, you'd be feeding a snake and reducing the population of cats. 

But what do you guys think, if a cat had the nutritional value and there was a population issue, could you do it? 
Of course live is out of the question and that would be disgusting but as much as I want to say no, I think if a cat was humanly killed and you could buy them frozen that it would be something I'd consider because we definitely have a cat issue due to irresponsible owners.

Opinions?

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*Bogertophis* (05-28-2018),Springtails&Isopods (05-28-2018),Valyrian (05-30-2018)

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## Sauzo

If i had a snake big enough to eat a cat and it was FT, I would probably do it. I more or less view all that stuff as 'food' for a snake. 

Now i wouldnt feed live not only for the fact they could hurt the snake but i dont think i could bring myself to do it just like I couldnt feed a live little rabbit. FT to me just looks like a lump of meat as i dont see it being all cute, just a frozen ball of fur that i thaw , rinse, fluff dry and feed. it's like how i couldnt kill a baby cow but i sure in heck could gobble down some yummy veal  :Smile: 

Heck when i actually get around to getting my small chest freezer, I'll probably order some piglets from Monster Feeders for Caesar as a jumbo rat really isnt much to him anymore  :Sad:

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*Bogertophis* (05-28-2018),CottonMouth (05-28-2018)

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## Phillydubs

The real question is Mr cotton mouth..

how ow is black panther going to feel about you killing his cousins twice removed who are over running wakanda??? Lol

these animals are going to die anyway right? They would be euthanized and creamated??

to me why not give them some purpose as a good source. 

If it works for rodents and other things to me its almost like creative recycling. 

Do we just throw bottles in some landfill or do we find ways to reuse and make them 

i never plan to own a snake large enough to consume a cat but I still think its ok

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*Bogertophis* (05-28-2018),CottonMouth (05-28-2018),_the_rotten1_ (05-28-2018),vincenzo (09-17-2019)

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## bcr229

I live next to thousands of acres of undeveloped (not even farmed) land so the coyotes and raptors / birds of prey keep the feral cat, and sometimes outdoor pet cat, population in check.

I wouldn't use euthanized cats as feeders.  The feral ones probably have parasites and the pets may have been wormed or vaccinated recently.

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_Alicia_ (05-28-2018),*Bogertophis* (05-28-2018),CottonMouth (05-28-2018),Craiga 01453 (05-28-2018),_hilabeans_ (05-28-2018),John1982 (05-28-2018),Springtails&Isopods (05-28-2018),_zina10_ (05-28-2018)

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## hilabeans

Nope.  Some lines just can't be crossed.  I know the line can sometimes be blurry, but cats fall on the other side of that line for me.

We humans are capable of finding better solutions to overpopulation.

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_Alicia_ (05-28-2018),C.Marie (05-28-2018),Craiga 01453 (05-28-2018),_JRLongton_ (05-29-2018),_Jus1More_ (05-29-2018),_zina10_ (05-28-2018)

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## zina10

Everything that hilabeans and bcr229 said. 

On top of that, do we really need more bad press? It doesn't matter if its fair or right, reptile keepers are constantly under attack of more rules and laws to have our hobby taken away from us. The last thing we need is to give people more ammunition. 

Live cats could seriously damage any snake, even a large one. Their bites are deep punctures that almost always get infected and their claws can do quite a bit of slicing. Feral and abandoned cats are also not well taken care off usually and carry a large parasite load. 

Why take the risk?

Former pet cats that WERE well taken care off either have a lot of meds in their system (some take a very long time to completely get metabolized) and they are still posing a danger from injuries plus how were they put down? Euthanized makes them unsafe to feed off. And I'm not even going to go there with pre killing a cat to make them safe for snakes.

Cats are beloved companion animals that get very attached to human beings. I never could/would do it and the backlash this would create on our hobby would be insane.

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_Alicia_ (05-28-2018),C.Marie (05-28-2018),CelticVikingNerd (06-24-2018),CottonMouth (05-28-2018),Craiga 01453 (05-28-2018),dr del (05-28-2018),_hilabeans_ (05-28-2018),_JRLongton_ (05-29-2018),_Jus1More_ (05-29-2018),_redshepherd_ (05-28-2018)

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## RickyNY

> Just want to start by saying, this is NOT something I'd ever do or or recommend at all! I LOVE CATS! Just a discussion. 
> 
> But little background info, was speaking with a few members at an Animal Rescue shelter and they were telling me how bad the cat population currently is and how they simply can't keep up with the amount of stray and abandoned cats. People are simply not getting their cats fixed and they are reproducing uncontrollably. Plus it's hard to find owners/buyers due to the fact sites like Kijiji and Craigslist people are simply giving them away for free. 
> One member joked that we might have to start feeding them to snakes. It was a joke but just got me thinking and thought it could be something to discuss. 
> 
> One could argue, what makes a life of a cat more precious than a hamster, rat, rabbit...
> And by doing it, you'd be feeding a snake and reducing the population of cats. 
> 
> But what do you guys think, if a cat had the nutritional value and there was a population issue, could you do it? 
> ...


What the people of Wakanda need is a Chinese Restaurant. Cat population problem mysteriously goes away  :Good Job: .

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CottonMouth (05-28-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Hats off to CottonMouth for a wonderfully courageous topic!  In the larger scheme of things, it makes total sense...the planet is getting more 
crowded every day and we simply must recycle & do all we can to preserve the natural world.

But as bcr229 said, the parasite load or the medications they've had would render them unsafe to use, not to mention that other pathogens 
carried or the basic nutritional balance might be off as well.  And zina10 is spot-on about the backlash it would create, as far more people like 
cats than snakes, fair or not.

Kept as pets, cats are charming...but the unhappy truth is that more & more cats are feral, & people simply MUST stop looking the other way.
There is nothing cute about feral cats:  they decimate natural populations of birds, reptiles & small mammals, they spread diseases & parasites 
to us* & to our pets.  (*I do organic gardening & roaming TRESPASSING cats see that as their cat box, which CAN harm human health, not to 
mention my property rights...)  What would your neighbors say if you sent your dogs or other pets to mess up their yard & kill animals for fun?

The feral cat population isn't getting any better, thanks to all the sympathetic cat-fools who continue to FEED them.  The problem is that cats 
on the loose are so ubiquitous that it's hard to get people to even realize (or admit) they are NOT native predators!  When I used to live in the 
desert, the coyotes were ever so grateful to those who let their pets roam, but that is not the answer in most areas, where coyotes themselves 
are often killed deliberately, if they exist at all.

Our society is poorly educated & it only seems to be getting worse:  we know that giant pythons don't belong in the Everglades & some take 
extraordinary delight in hunting them down & killing them, but there is a HUGE blind spot to roaming & multiplying cats;  cat-lovers seem to think 
the animal they fancy should have free-reign...that the world is their "oyster"?  But this is NOT 50 or 75 years ago, where more families lived on 
farms with a cat or two in the barn...we're all living closer together, & our wild population of birds, reptiles & small mammals is struggling to 
survive in what little space we leave them...AND with a warming climate. 

We must do better to educate & control populations where needed.  The natural world has a balance of predators & prey, but humans have messed 
that up by releasing cats everywhere.  The truly feral ones don't have a good life, and those roaming pets mistaken for ferals are being killed too...
by cars, by diseases, by canines both wild & domestic, and deliberately by some people.  If you love your cat (or dog), do NOT let them roam.  If 
you have a pet, be responsible....spay/neuter!

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_Alter-Echo_ (05-28-2018),Apiratenamedjohn (05-29-2018),*bcr229* (05-28-2018),C.Marie (05-28-2018),CottonMouth (05-28-2018),_EL-Ziggy_ (05-28-2018),John1982 (05-28-2018),_Jus1More_ (05-29-2018),rottn (06-03-2018),_Shayne_ (05-08-2019),_Sonny1318_ (05-29-2018)

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## enginee837

Excellent solution for unwanted cats and dogs imo.  Better than just euthanizing them and throwing them away.  There is no line in the animal kingdom, all animals big and small carry the same value from a roach to a whale.  The only true line lies between humans and everything else.  So long as it is not endangered, go for it.

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Apiratenamedjohn (05-29-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> ...Cats are beloved companion animals that get very attached to human beings....


Yes, they seem to be...but they also have survival instincts.  I was once told privately by a police officer that ever since the call he went on where a recently 
deceased woman was being consumed by her lovely cat, let's just say that he no longer swerves when they run across the road in front of him.  He said there 
have been other such incidences in his experience as well.  

Please understand that I'm not repeating this to be gross or unkind...I just think we need to be more objective about this issue...see cats as they really are, 
not as we imagine them to be.  

There have been studies with tiny cameras on cat collars that revealed those sweet pet cats did FAR more killing when loose than their owners EVER imagined. 
Contrary to what many thought, cats only bring home a tiny fraction of the animals they kill or maim when running loose.  IS THAT FAIR???  NO.

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_Godzilla78_ (05-28-2018),_Shayne_ (05-08-2019)

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## zina10

Of course they have survival instincts, who doesn't ? 

Dogs have been known to eat their dead owners as well, does it make dogs bad or ok to run a loose dog over when on the street? I find the statement incredibly ignorant (not yours, the cops) 

Does it make it ok to purposely run snakes over ? Because they hunt, eat and kill ? 

As a matter of fact, even humans ate humans when it came to survival. One only has to remember the case of the airplane that went down over the snowy Andes mountains. (they ate friends and family members..) So, should we run over people too? 

I think feral cats are a huge problem, that is for sure. It starts with the irresponsibility of people. I don't even let my pet cat roam outside. As a matter of fact I think it is absolutely shameful how people think its perfectly ok to let their pet cats roam outside to poop into other peoples flowerbeds, to mark on their homes, to jump around on their cars and to kill countless songbirds. Yet, look at most cat owners. They will argue to the death how its perfectly normal and absolutely necessary for a cat to roam outside. No, it is not. It is laziness on the owners part. Its easier to let them out then to clean litter boxes or TRAIN your cat not to destroy your furniture or actually ENTERTAIN your cat some so it isn't so bored.

I don't let my dogs or horse roam, and they wouldn't mind a stroll outside, either.

It all comes down to people. Yes, the problem of feral and released cat needs to be addressed. IMHO it starts with making people responsible for their animals. Spay and neuter programs in the meanwhile. 

For all the before mentioned problems I don't see feeding them off to snakes a good or even possible solution. It wouldn't do our hobby or snakes any good whatsoever. 

As is, many euthanized pets DO end up in petfood. And pets have died because of it (euth. drugs in food).

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_Alicia_ (05-28-2018),bubs327 (05-30-2018),C.Marie (05-28-2018),_Jus1More_ (05-29-2018)

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## Godzilla78

Cat populations need to be controlled by all means.  Spaying and neutering just isnt being done sufficiently by irresponsible cat owners, and feral cats running wild.

Overpopulation of Housecats has caused the extinction of multiple species on the planet.
Predators eating cats are a good thing for the ecosystem.  I wouldnt feed cats to my snakes, unless my snakes where giant species, then... possibly yes.

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*Bogertophis* (05-28-2018),CottonMouth (05-28-2018)

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## Bogertophis

The original question was about 'kittens" rather than cats.  Is it likely that kittens would present a problem with parasites?  And wouldn't they also be 
free of medications (vaccinations & such)?

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## Springtails&Isopods

If people knew what we were talking about there would be a lot more programs set in place to spay and neuter.
 The idea is sound in my opinion. Repurpose a pest to be used as nutrition. 
Problem is that the industry would breed laboratory cats to use as feeders as opposed to wild cats. Never heard of a reputable feeder distributor that sells wild caught feeders.
That's why the idea is sound, but not possible in our society. 
I personally do not feed wild caught because of disease, poison, pesticides, antibiotics ect. 
 I also think if my snake missed the first strike it would likely get killed or mamed by something that has dealt with predators before as I only feed live.
Survival of the fittest exists in the real world : ) 
 I know the live feeders I get are clueless to predators for the most part making my snake the alpha in the tank. Wild animals would likely change that.

That said I heard of people feeding feral cats to hogs! Reminds me or silence of the lambs pffpffpffpffpffpffpfg

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CottonMouth (05-28-2018)

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## Springtails&Isopods

Or snatch! You know the one where Brad Pitt is an underground gypsy boxing champion. 
They reference hogs being able to eat 200 lbs of flesh within an hour or so. Great movie.

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Craiga 01453 (05-28-2018)

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## zina10

> The original question was about 'kittens" rather than cats.  Is it likely that kittens would present a problem with parasites?  And wouldn't they also be 
> free of medications (vaccinations & such)?


Feral kittens already have parasites as well as diseases. 

I know, because I've rescued a few near death.

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*Bogertophis* (05-28-2018)

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## redshepherd

OP's thoughts with comparing feeding kittens vs feeding f/t mice and rats isn't accurate, because OP is talking about cat overpopulation aka feral kittens and newborn housepets. That isn't equivalent to f/t rodents, because our f/t rodents are specifically produced and bred for food. They're clean and free of parasites and free of meds or poisons, and most importantly that they're bred and sold from the get-go in order to be reptile food.

So an accurate comparison to using kitten overpopulation as food is more like: would you feed feral rat pinks to your snakes?

That's really it, there isn't much to talk about.

But if one was asking if one day, people somehow run out of rabbits (lol) and start businesses of breeding kittens as large reptile feeders... That would be more ethically accurate to your rats/mice/hamsters comparison.

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_Alicia_ (05-28-2018),C.Marie (05-28-2018),_MissterDog_ (05-28-2018)

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## 55fingers

There's no way I could feed a cat to a snake.. and in my opinion I would call it wrong for anyone to. Although that's only my view. It is a good question, what makes a cat's life any more valuable that a rodent's? I don't know. But I believe that things like cats and dogs are meant as companions. I understand that people have rodents as pets and sometimes bond with them more than they would a dog or cat, but it's still just different. I feel omnivorous prey items like rats are supposed to be targeted and eaten by predators, but feeding an obligate carnivore to an obligate carnivore sounds wrong to me..

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## Sauzo

> OP's thoughts with comparing feeding kittens vs feeding f/t mice and rats isn't accurate, because OP is talking about cat overpopulation aka feral kittens and newborn housepets. That isn't equivalent to f/t rodents, because our f/t rodents are specifically produced and bred for food. They're clean and free of parasites and free of meds or poisons, and most importantly that they're bred and sold from the get-go in order to be reptile food.
> 
> So an accurate comparison to using kitten overpopulation as food is more like: would you feed feral rat pinks to your snakes?
> 
> That's really it, there isn't much to talk about.
> 
> But if one was asking if one day, people somehow run out of rabbits (lol) and start businesses of breeding kittens as large reptile feeders... That would be more ethically accurate to your rats/mice/hamsters comparison.


Yeah, I more took it as FT kittens/cats that are bred for that purpose like FT mice and rats at pet shops and suppliers.

If we are talking feral or even house pet cats, no i wouldnt feed them as it has already been stated, they are sure to have some form of parasite just like a wild rodent.

Heck if they want to control cat populations, just pass a law where you cant sell cats that arent spayed or neutered. If a private party is caught, its a hefty fine. Only allow show cats or licensed breeders to have fully functioning cats.

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_Alicia_ (05-28-2018),*Bogertophis* (05-28-2018)

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## zina10

I wouldn't even punish responsible breeders. They already require the pet to be fixed.

It's time people are held accountable for their pets. Unless they are barn cats (which usually stay on the large rural property and have a job) it should be against the law to let your cats be outside to become a nuisance to others. It should also be punished to abandon animals.

I know...Not easy and what a outcry it would be from cat owners. 

But people created this problem and high time they face some of the responsibility. If they want to keep a unfixed cat in their house...well...on them.

In my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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*Bogertophis* (05-28-2018)

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## Bogertophis

This is an interesting discussion, though none of my snakes are big enough to consume kittens, much less cats, & I'd personally never even feed 
wild rodents to my snakes, because of the risks of diseases, parasites (including fleas that can jump off on me & my dogs!) & possible exposure to 
pesticides or other unhealthy things in the environment that hadn't yet killed the rodent but could affect my snakes.

But pet overpopulation IS a very real problem- as are loose cats & dogs.  And in many parts of the world, they are looked upon very differently.  
Many years ago I spent a year in South Korea...and seeing dogs crammed into crates on the back of bicycles ridden to the meat market was heart-
breaking.  And if a loose dog happened to get hit crossing a street it was immediately scooped up by a passing motorist for dinner, not for first aid. 
It didn't matter if it was someone's pet that had only just got loose, it was fair game.

Many of us (myself included) love horses, and most owners take good care of them.  But more than we'd like to admit, people are keeping horses  
that shouldn't:  maybe they've fallen on hard times, but they fail for whatever reasons to feed & care for them and their animals are left suffering, 
without food & water.  Yet we frown on consuming them here, while many other countries have no such hesitation.  

Before I got into snakes, I had all sorts of pet rodents (hamsters, rats & chipmunks), yet when I got to know snakes, I was able to "take sides" & 
raise rats, mice & hamsters as both pets (to sell) & feeders.  I try to think of myself as taking the role of nature...keeping back the best to breed 
(or to sell as pets, when I had a side business), & feed off the others (as they'd be in the natural food chain). 

I don't know what all the answers are, but I know our society needs to address these issues.  I'm neither a vegetarian nor the most carnivorous person 
around (I actually prefer soy burgers to real ones, lol) but I do think that animals all deserve respect & humane care.  Just because we don't want to
use feral cats (or dogs etc.) as feeders, doesn't mean that we should ignore the problem.  Inevitably we get drawn into all sorts of discussions about 
pets because many people think we're horrible for even feeding rodents to snakes, even by people who eat meat themselves.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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_EL-Ziggy_ (05-28-2018)

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## Alter-Echo

I honestly don't view any animal as being "off limits", in the end we are all just just meat and bone and hair, the only differences are the ones humans choose to create. 

That being said, parasites and or medications are a serious concern, so I personally wouldn't do it based on this fact alone. My uncle used to feed his Burmese roadkill, he would freeze it for a few weeks then thaw and feed and had no issues with parasites, but I don't think I would want to risk it, since many bacteria can survive that.

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*Bogertophis* (05-28-2018),_Godzilla78_ (05-28-2018),_the_rotten1_ (05-28-2018)

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## Godzilla78



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## Bogertophis

Thanks for the laugh, Godzilla78...unfortunately, your photo-shop may also make PETA's "day" and hysteria among the "cat community" & all those 
snake-haters who don't know a corn snake from an anaconda.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Cheesenugget

Breeding cats similar to breeding rats/mice to become feeders do not serve any purpose in addressing the feral cat population.  It is just adding cat to the menu and have the reptile community suffer from cat lovers across the world.  

Feeding feral kittens (f/t) if it passed naturally, more than likely it has died from parasites and disease.  Most are underweight so I don't know how they would have the same nutrition value as a well fed, health rat.  I fostered feral kittens and many are very sick.  I don't know many feral kittens who are born wild and remain illness free and parasite free.  Coccidia is a common parasite that kills them if medication is not provided.  And keeping a young sick kitten alive requires a cocktail of meds, plus vaccines, just to see improvement in their health.

 TNR (Trap Neuter Release) programs work.  If one knows how feral colonies operate, this is by far the most efficient way to cut down colony populations.  If you do exactly what everyone else had been trying for decades, which is to kill as many feral cats as possible, you will fail.  Why?  Because cats are territorial.  You kill off a group of established cats just so in a few weeks later, you will find another group, maybe even larger in numbers, moving in to the same space.  Feral colonies that are established do not roam everywhere: they stay within a certain set of perimeters of their territory.   If you remove them, their neighbors will take over and make more babies.  By TNR, no babies are created, the current generations hold down their territory until they die from natural causes or otherwise.  They also do the same to neighboring colonies.  Their populations do decrease over time.  

If you were to take the feral kittens but not the mom, it solves nothing.  Instead, you just made the feral population go up faster.  A mom cat who lost her kittens will go into heat rather quickly, thus baby making time.  Trapping the mom and spaying her while socializing, caring and adopting out the babies work.  If you don't get the mom, you end up with another litter.

I do agree that the feral cat population is a problem.  But they did not show up on our doorstep overnight. Educating the public about fixing their cats, encourage them to keep their cats indoors, and offer low cost or free spay/neuter programs as well as the TNR programs will help address this problem.  

I would like to think that the reptile community are a group of ANIMAL lovers despite of what others think of us.

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_zina10_ (05-29-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Cheesenugget, I appreciate & agree with your reasons that feral cats (kittens) are unsuitable "feeders" but I absolutely do not agree with "TNR"- and never will.

Cats are DOMESTIC animals, NOT NATIVE wildlife...as such, they should be removed from the wild by all means necessary to protect our native species.
It's no different than removing & euthanizing the non-native giant snakes being found loose in Florida...the only difference is that you happen to prefer cats. 

You are certainly among animal lovers here...but it it's not right for your pet of choice to take over as if it belongs everywhere, killing & maiming the species 
that DO belong here.  TNR is ridiculous:  feral cats continue to damage property, attack not only wildlife but pets, spread diseases and parasites, and ruin 
organic gardens where people like myself work very hard to produce healthy food that is safe for humans to eat, and cause accidents when they run in front 
of cars.  The public has long been "educated" about fixing their cats...how's that working for ya?  It's NOT.  

How many cat lovers believe their cats should never roam outside, out of their yard?  I can probably count them on one hand...sadly, I've concluded that 
people who claim to love their cats are more lazy than love-filled...it's just so much easier to let their cat run loose than to pick up after it or deal with it's 
social & exercise needs.  How thoughtful of your neighbors property....it's not only "feral" cats but loose cats- "pets"- that are a problem now everywhere.  
A big thanks for all that animal love, that has blinded cat-owners into thinking their cat deserves access to every else's property, including nature preserves 
and public parks.  If you love cats, or any other pets, you keep them home where they are protected & cared for.  Don't tell me how much cat owners "care"!

What was once a farmer's means of controlling rodents in their barn on private land is now a public menace everywhere...but that was LONG ago!  The world 
has changed, in case you haven't noticed.  Human population continues to expand, along with their roaming cats, all the while space between us gets ever
smaller & more precious...it gets harder for native birds, reptiles, amphibians & mammals to survive.  Do we want a world filled with nature's diversity of life?  Or a world with just cats?

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Apiratenamedjohn (05-29-2018),_Godzilla78_ (05-29-2018),_zina10_ (05-29-2018)

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## Apiratenamedjohn

I say all lines are figments. We do so much to try and seperate ourselves from the rest of the animal kingdom. But really, what seperates us, or cats, or dogs, or snakes from any other carbon based life form on this planet? Mostly our egos imo. We all fit nicely into the food chain. 
 I say if it will help control overpopulation, do it. This planet is completely overpopulated now. 
Plus i find it hard to get all pissy about F/T kittens when it is perfectly ok to snatch wild critters out of nature and put them in glass boxes for the rest of their lives like tiny scaley felons. 
Just my two cents

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## Apiratenamedjohn

> 


yes!!!!! Bahahaha

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_enginee837_ (05-29-2018),_Godzilla78_ (05-29-2018)

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## AbsoluteApril

> It's time people are held accountable for their pets. Unless they are barn cats (which usually stay on the large rural property and have a job) it should be against the law to let your cats be outside to become a nuisance to others. It should also be punished to abandon animals.
> 
> I know...Not easy and what a outcry it would be from cat owners.


As a cat lover and cat owner, not all of us think they should be allowed outdoors.
Mine are fixed and indoor only, as they should be. I also support removal of ferals and mandatory spay/neuter for pets.

I guess that's all I will add to this conversation as a lot of comments I agree with and others I find it poor taste.  :Worry: 
Lovely thing about the world is people can have different opinions.

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## Slicercrush

Personally, as stated above, if they were raised for consumption, like bred from a proper feeder company, and I had a snake that was large enough...MAYBE. It would be odd for me, because I usually see F/T as "its already dead", but my mind throughout the year has also been taught that kittens are pets only, so who knows. Then again, I did used to have pet mice, and I don't feel bad feeding them to my snake, so I feel like I could possibly be able to do it.

As for a wild caught population, definitely not. Anything wild caught that's used as a "feeder" is really something I don't like to touch, because of parasites, disease, etc etc, it was already touched above in full.

Feral cats are definitely a problem. There's quite a few where I live, and we're just a large suburb in the middle of a bunch of other suburbs with a little bit of forest sprinkled here and there. My neighbors let their cats out all the time, though I believe that they are spayed/neutered, its obvious that plenty of people aren't doing the same. Even if they are, I don't believe they should be let outside (killing off local animal population, etc), and sadly I've started to find my own fair share of new, young cats trailing around here. I don't enjoy in the slightest how its legal, and dont think it should be. I personally think its dumb to say a cat can roam, but a small dog is 1000x more dangerous and must be kept inside. All animals have their risk, especially if they aren't a local species, which most house cats aren't.

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## highqualityballz

IMO a cat is a pet type of animal and create a bond with humans that rats, rabbits, hamsters dont. Would you feed a newborn puppy to a snake? Everyone is so quick to throw the kitten in but when it comes to a puppy they sing a different tune.

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## Cheesenugget

> Cheesenugget, I appreciate & agree with your reasons that feral cats (kittens) are unsuitable "feeders" but I absolutely do not agree with "TNR"- and never will.
> 
> Cats are DOMESTIC animals, NOT NATIVE wildlife...as such, they should be removed from the wild by all means necessary to protect our native species.
> It's no different than removing & euthanizing the non-native giant snakes being found loose in Florida...the only difference is that you happen to prefer cats. 
> 
> You are certainly among animal lovers here...but it it's not right for your pet of choice to take over as if it belongs everywhere, killing & maiming the species 
> that DO belong here.  TNR is ridiculous:  feral cats continue to damage property, attack not only wildlife but pets, spread diseases and parasites, and ruin 
> organic gardens where people like myself work very hard to produce healthy food that is safe for humans to eat, and cause accidents when they run in front 
> of cars.  The public has long been "educated" about fixing their cats...how's that working for ya?  It's NOT.  
> ...


I understand and accept your opinion.  I'm pretty active in a local cat forums and your argument is loudly spoken and heard by many cat owners.  And many times, we the cat owners do agree with you.  

I just want to clarify a few things.  I live in South FL so the pythons you speak of is a common topic in the news every year.  They hold hunting competitions and even got scientists involved in dealing with the problem.  However, while killing the pythons is necessary, it is inefficient.  These snakes are smart and difficult to find.  For every snake they manage to kill by hunting, another 10 is lying in wait nearby hiding from view and continuing to eat up the local wildlife.  

Just as it was needed for feral cats, addressing these types of problems require a 'work smart not hard' mentality.  Scientists have been placing trackers on male pythons who would lead them to a large female plus any extra males who were following her.  By following 1 male, they were able to catch more than killing them all indiscriminately.  The females are especially important to remove from the environment.  It is a work in progress.  Killing them just cause it ate a songbird may seem justified.  But you will see by killing that tomcat, another large tomcat will move right in, mate with his females and start new litters immediately.  Same with the pythons.  We can kill that 1 male who happen to be an easy find or we can track him to lead us to a breeding female plus any extra males along the way.

It is a fact that cats are having a negative impact on wildlife.  It is also important to remember that the demise of many, many different species near your home and worldwide are caused by habitat destruction.  Fragmentation of habitat is choking certain species to extinction by not able to prevent inbreeding.  

I agree today's world is a different one.  More people can afford to eat steaks so more farmlands are needed to raise cattle.  We need more homes so off you go, lets clear that land and that acre as well so we can build a cool outlet mall nearby.  Most of the time, it is unintentional.  When you go to Home Depot to pick up some plants for your garden, they are mostly non native species.  Your garden that used to hold native plants and trees were removed to make room for your colorful annuals, who may spread their seeds elsewhere.  Most invasive species are harmless and do not cause a problem but when they do, they already took hold of the environment.

Birds who survived the cats' fatal claws have to find suitable homes to mate and nest.  Butterflies that were once abundant no longer appears because the milkweed plants (Native to FL) have been removed to make way.  The list goes on and on.  

Like I said, I respect and understand your frustration.  It seems in every pet community, we also have a bad batch of irresponsible owners who is continuing this mess (Even the bunny community is not spared, did you know we have feral bunnies?).  I am not excusing the lazy cat owners or the problems feral cats have caused.  I just want to bring up a different perspective especially you brought up the python problems for those who don't live in FL or know what is going on.

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## Godzilla78

Im a snake owner, and a cat owner. I love cats and snakes, they are very cool predators and very cool pets. I do believe in controlling the population, there should only be responsible breeders of snakes, and there should only be responsible keepers of cats that spay and neuter. However if the population gets out of control as in the Burmese python problem or the feral cat problem, there needs to be an elimination of these creatures by any means in my opinion.
Killing is often necessary in the animal kingdom.

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*Bogertophis* (05-29-2018)

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## zina10

I think just like with most problems, a lot of thought needs to go into it and a multi angle approach needs to be taken.

To many times someone will get some "great" idea and ends up with even bigger problems. How many times have people tried to fight one species by introducing another in order to eradicate it. Only for the introduced species to take over and cause even more problems. 

Spay and neuter programs work to an extend, but I do agree that it is not enough. For every cat that is fixed, there are 20 more new cat owners that let their cats roam, fixed or not, or even end up abandoning it. 

Killing them all? Ok...but how? I think most agree that feeding them off to snakes is not a good option, unless you want to risk harm to your snakes and our hobby. 

Shooting? I can see that go all kinds of wrong in many ways. Not to mention to get that passed will be like...impossible. Whether that is good or not, it is what it is.

Poison? Lets not go there, that would be a very bad idea. 

I believe it may not be a bad idea if someone could come up with a food additive that renders those cats sterile. Of course that has to be save, effective, and people have to be on board to really give this a chance. 

I keep coming back to the root of it. Because, until you take care of the root, all you do is pluck the green off and more sprouts all the while. 

It always comes right back to irresponsible owners. Unless on a farm cats should NOT be allowed to roam anymore. Period. Fixed or not. You aren't allowed to let your cows/pig/dogs/horses roam, why cats ??? And no, that is NOT where they belong. And yes, they CAN be happy being indoors only. Not to mention that you can figure out how to give your cat outdoor times by building a window box, a outdoor run, or even a leash. But this is just the thing. Cat owners are often lazy. No need to house break cats. Easy peezy. Next thing , why even bother with a litter box, just push the cat outdoors to poop in the neighbors veggie or flower bed. Also means they don't have to entertain their cat to keep it from destroying the furniture. Training? Cats don't need that. If they don't behave, out the door you go. All the while telling themselves that is where cats belong, that is where they are happy, that is what they need. In truth there is disease for which there are no shots, vehicles running them over, other animals chasing and killing them, people catching and torturing them. 

I know there are still people that even let their dogs roam on purpose. So getting this passed will cause a gigantic outcry and is going to be very, very difficult. Cat owners will have a cow. Cats will get turned into shelters or abandoned. That's the other thing, if caught abandoning your animal, the punishment should be severe. As is, the laws on neglecting, abusing and abandoning pets are still far to weak. 

I have rescued quite a few kittens, nursed them back to health, bottle fed, etc. The one that was literally more dead then alive for days we ended up keeping. I'm not a cat person, so the kittens I save and foster as well as the cat I kept have rules. Just like the dogs. They get taught. Just like the dogs. They know the word "no". They get trained where to scratch and where not. Most of all, they immediately get trained to accept trimming their nails. Don't get me started on "de-clawing" which is just a fancy word for amputating each toe at the last digit, which is cruel. And again, pure laziness on the owners part. My cat gets his nails trimmed with the cordless Dremmel. Just like the dogs. He lays in my lap unrestrained while I do that. He gets to come into the back yard. When we go out with the dogs. He comes back inside with us and the dogs. Never ever left the yard or even tries. 

All in all I have actually met a lot more reptile owners that will research and make sure that their animals get the right care, that they are treated right, than I have met responsible dog or cat owners. 

Feral and outdoor cats are a big problem. I wish their was more done about it then just spay and neuter. But I also don't think going on wild killing sprees is ultimately going to be the answer. Fight it at the root of the problem. If only...

Here is Jack getting his nails done , LOL !!

ps: If anyone thinks I'm "mean" to the cat because he has rules and training, let me juts tell you that this strange cat LOVES me. He literally adores me. He comes when called and if I'd let him, he'd stay stuck to my side as if attached by velcro. He is more loyal then most dogs. He is a very happy cat!

https://youtu.be/Txu6yGYkcWg

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*Bogertophis* (05-29-2018),_MissterDog_ (05-29-2018),_the_rotten1_ (05-29-2018)

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## Godzilla78

Luckily we have a lot of coyotes and some foxes that control outdoor cat populations around here.

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*Bogertophis* (05-29-2018),_enginee837_ (05-29-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> Im a snake owner, and a cat owner. I love cats and snakes, they are very cool predators and very cool pets. I do believe in controlling the population, there should only be responsible breeders of snakes, and there should only be responsible keepers of cats that spay and neuter. However if the population gets out of control as in the Burmese python problem or the feral cat problem, there needs to be an elimination of these creatures by any means in my opinion.
> Killing is often necessary in the animal kingdom.


Exactly!   :Number1:   I don't welcome the killing of any animals:  I feel bad for non-native snakes being killed for "being in the wrong place" but because I CARE about 
our native wildlife, the whole ecosystem, I understand and accept that necessity.  

But obviously, most cat-lovers refuse to accept the same fate for feral/loose cats:  animal shelters have long waiting lists from people who want to turn in all 
those kittens or puppies they just couldn't resist producing, or the older pets they no longer want or are able to care for.  Most of those owner turn-ins will make 
good pets for a new owner.  But then add in all the cat-lovers who just can't resist feeding the strays, or even participating in TNR (if anyone doesn't know what 
that is, it stands for "trap, neuter & release"):  this is all WRONG.  First off, most feral cats take a lot of work to make them become suitable pets.  Where does 
all that money, time & energy come from?  From "cat-lovers" who mostly let their own cats run loose...well, because "it's always been done that way"!?  And if 
you only have a finite (NOT INFINITE) number of good homes to adopt cats, why would you continue to work with ferals & allow those that are already PETS to 
be euthanized or dumped?  Because that's what happens when the waiting list is too long at a shelter...many unwanted pets get dumped.  So this never ends...

The arguments by cat-lovers in favor of TNR, that eliminating feral cats is just too hard to do, are deliberately missing the point!  The first part of TNR is TRAP!
Hello???  Many feral cats can be trapped...we know this because they ARE being trapped.  But instead of euthanizing them as should be (& must become) the 
law, they are only being neutered & released.  Yes, that reduces the population of cats...but it's too little.  Remember that human population keeps increasing 
all the while, so more people are releasing more cats all the time...so TNR does NOT work and never will.  And all those damn loose cats are still killing wildlife, 
still damaging property, still spreading diseases & parasites to animals and people, still disturbing the sleep of hard-working people w/ fights....this must stop.

If you truly love cats, you would NOT want them running loose, to be hungry, diseased, preyed upon, poisoned or run over by cars.  That's not what I call 'love'.
It's far kinder to cats to euthanize those trapped than to release them, & since they are not native predators but "domestic" animals (hence the name "domestic 
short-hair" etc) they do not ever belong running wild.  This is unacceptable for any other species we keep...why should cats be different?  This must stop now.

I applaud Australia for taking action on this issue.  >>>

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/an...nimals-per-day

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...on-feral-cats/

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-0...imates/9013960

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...t-of-australia

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...lets-injected/

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_Alter-Echo_ (05-29-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> IMO a cat is a pet type of animal and create a bond with humans that rats, rabbits, hamsters dont. Would you feed a newborn puppy to a snake? Everyone is so quick to throw the kitten in but when it comes to a puppy they sing a different tune.


Um, have you ever had a pet rat?  I have had quite a few actually, before I ever got into snakes.  Rats are smart & trainable (comparable to dogs & cats!) 
& even affectionate at times.  I can't speak for rabbits, as I've never kept them, but I like & have raised many hamsters too (Russian dwarf, that is...they 
are social, while the Syrian hamsters are not).  Hamsters don't have quite the smarts that rats do, they're just "cuter".  But don't make assumptions, ok???

This discussion was started on cats because of the overwhelming numbers that shelters can no longer manage, as the OP explained.  Similar situation for 
dogs, sadly & to our disgrace as a nation of "animal lovers".  This is NOT an attempt to "throw the kitten in..." despite the thread title.

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_Alter-Echo_ (05-29-2018),_Godzilla78_ (05-29-2018),_Jus1More_ (05-29-2018)

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## enginee837

> Luckily we have a lot of coyotes and some foxes that control outdoor cat populations around here.


We have the same luxury here as well.  Coyotes do a wonderful job on loose cats and small dogs.  As for the dangers of feeding cats (or dogs for that matter) to your snake, just sent all the unwanted/euthanized animals to reptilinks.  My black-heads would gladly dispose of this kitty and puppy sausages.   
I can't say I care for cats much but I am a dog lover and even so I dont agree with being wasteful.

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## zina10

> We have the same luxury here as well.  Coyotes do a wonderful job on loose cats and small dogs.  As for the dangers of feeding cats (or dogs for that matter) to your snake, just sent all the unwanted/euthanized animals to reptilinks.  My black-heads would gladly dispose of this kitty and puppy sausages.   
> I can't say I care for cats much but I am a dog lover and even so I dont agree with being wasteful.


You most definitely do NOT want this to happen !!!

As is, there are certain pet food manufactures that will buy rendered meat containing euthanized pets (and horses). Many dogs have died, because the euthanasia drugs were in the food. Not to mention the many other drugs in many pets (they get steroids, pain meds and some pretty hardcore stuff).

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*Bogertophis* (05-29-2018),_MissterDog_ (05-29-2018)

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## WhompingWillow

Just chiming in as a cat owner (we have 7, 6 of which were rescues, all of which are 100% indoor cats unless on a harness and actively supervised) - psychologically, I could never feed a kitten to a snake, even if F/T. To me, cats are pets. I can separate emotionally from a F/T rodent, but I don't think I'd ever be able to kill a mouse or rat, just like I would have a difficult time feeding live. We actually got our most recent cat from a reptile show (she was a barn kitten that was turned into a chinchilla rescue), and she's required a lot of vet care to get her healthy.

There are irresponsible pet owners across the animal spectrum. Name an animal and there are guaranteed to be irresponsible owners somewhere. While TNR may not be perfect or an immediate solution, it's at least a step in the right direction. I just don't think it's fair to generalize cat owners, just like it's not fair to generalize reptile keepers.

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_MissterDog_ (05-29-2018)

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## enginee837

> You most definitely do NOT want this to happen !!!
> 
> As is, there are certain pet food manufactures that will buy rendered meat containing euthanized pets (and horses). Many dogs have died, because the euthanasia drugs were in the food. Not to mention the many other drugs in many pets (they get steroids, pain meds and some pretty hardcore stuff).


Considering the kind of revenue that could be generated where there was none before I cannot see how it would be too difficult to rectify your concerns.

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## Bogertophis

> Just chiming in as a cat owner (we have 7, 6 of which were rescues, all of which are 100% indoor cats unless on a harness and actively supervised) - ......
> I just don't think it's fair to generalize cat owners, just like it's not fair to generalize reptile keepers.


You do realize though that you are one of a tiny minority of cat owners.  As far as generalizing cat owners, at some point the sheer numbers of loose 
& feral cats speak for themselves.  I'm sorry if generalizing seems unfair to you, but I don't have cats...so why do different ones keep showing up on my 
property?  If this happened with reptiles or ANY other pets, you can bet it would be stereotyped, because it's what we see everyday with our own eyes.
Dogs shouldn't be running loose either, but around here at least, they are very very rare...usually a temporary escaped pet.  One big difference is that 
a loose dog doesn't jump over your 6' fence & mess with your back yard like cats do routinely.

I don't hate cats...but I'm not too warm & fuzzy about most cat owners.  I used to cat-sit for a neighbor that had to travel occasionally...her cat was a 
total indoor cat, with a litter box in her garage thru the kitty-door, a self-waterer & self-feeder.  My 'job' was just to hang out for a while, so her cat 
wasn't lonely.  I've seen other responsible cat owners that have a large outdoor "cage" so their cat can be outdoors, weather permitting:  like an aviary, 
only for their cat, with a roof overhead, an enclosed area within for shelter/warmth, toys & things to climb, & a litter box & food/water, of course. But 
again, those are the exceptions.  I'm tired of seeing cats kill birds & reptiles all over the place...those that are pets, most do it for fun, those that are 
feral are hungry, but they aren't native wildlife so they have no business being out there to begin with.

I have dogs & every house I've lived in, I've put up a secure fence for my dogs.  It's what you do when you have pets, you do whatever it takes to contain 
them to your property...otherwise they aren't "pets", they're a public nuisance animal.  The numbers speak for themselves, but thank you for being one of 
the good cat owners.

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## zina10

When I am lamenting about cat owners that are irresponsible and add to the problem, I'm not talking about the great ones that keep their cats from becoming a nuisance. 

Thank God there are many awesome cat owners as well. 

But unfortunately there are many that will never change their mind or ways and will continue to get more cats and let them roam.

To the ones on this thread that are responsible cat owners. Thank you 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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_MissterDog_ (05-29-2018)

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## zina10

> Considering the kind of revenue that could be generated where there was none before I cannot see how it would be too difficult to rectify your concerns.


I don't see how? There is no way to know which drugs are in any given animal at a shelter. Unless you do very precise and expensive blood tests, the cost for that lab work, vet work and housing while waiting on results make this venue anything but cost effective. 

Going back to gassing all animals will not get approved. It is a cruel and unreliable method of putting them down. So you will have euthanasia drugs to worry about as well. 

Many or most former pets that end up put down at shelters are already rendered and put into pet food. And nothing good has come out of that other then sick and dying pets. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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*Bogertophis* (05-29-2018),_MissterDog_ (05-29-2018)

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## enginee837

> I don't see how? There is no way to know which drugs are in any given animal at a shelter. Unless you do very precise and expensive blood tests, the cost for that lab work, vet work and housing while waiting on results make this venue anything but cost effective. 
> 
> Going back to gassing all animals will not get approved. It is a cruel and unreliable method of putting them down. So you will have euthanasia drugs to worry about as well. 
> 
> Many or most former pets that end up put down at shelters are already rendered and put into pet food. And nothing good has come out of that other then sick and dying pets. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Drugs have a specific half life, meaning a set amount of time it remains in the animals system before it is no longer there or effective.  On top of that the animals (speculating here) would not need to tested individually, they could test batches of processed meat.
As for gassing being inhumane,  it is humane enough for feeder rodents and it is far more humane than being eaten alive by a predator (nature's way).  Trying to say there is a difference between gassing a rat and gassing a cat is nothing more than anthropomorphizing.

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Valyrian (05-30-2018)

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## highqualityballz

> Um, have you ever had a pet rat?  I have had quite a few actually, before I ever got into snakes.  Rats are smart & trainable (comparable to dogs & cats!) 
> & even affectionate at times.  I can't speak for rabbits, as I've never kept them, but I like & have raised many hamsters too (Russian dwarf, that is...they 
> are social, while the Syrian hamsters are not).  Hamsters don't have quite the smarts that rats do, they're just "cuter".  But don't make assumptions, ok???
> 
> This discussion was started on cats because of the overwhelming numbers that shelters can no longer manage, as the OP explained.  Similar situation for 
> dogs, sadly & to our disgrace as a nation of "animal lovers".  This is NOT an attempt to "throw the kitten in..." despite the thread title.


We really gonna compare cats to rats? Thats just ridiculous. Sorry rat lovers but I dont really care tbh. No assumptions were made just facts. Why dont we just release the sheltered cats into the wild and let nature take its course instead of capturing them and killing them. Imagine if stupid people didnt release their pets into the wild how many lives that would save. Dont mean to go off track just thought Id make that point. IMO cats are pets not food regardless of if its dead or not. Id bury my cat before I feed it to any snake. Just the thought that anyone would think about that deeply disturbs me!

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_MissterDog_ (05-30-2018)

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## zina10

> Drugs have a specific half life, meaning a set amount of time it remains in the animals system before it is no longer there or effective.  On top of that the animals (speculating here) would not need to tested individually, they could test batches of processed meat.
> As for gassing being inhumane,  it is humane enough for feeder rodents and it is far more humane than being eaten alive by a predator (nature's way).  Trying to say there is a difference between gassing a rat and gassing a cat is nothing more than anthropomorphizing.


Yes, they do. Some longer then others. Again, how would one know, though ?

Testing a batch? Those batches are HUGE. And they can't just stop production and leave a huge batch of rendered meat sitting there while performing all kinds of tests ,sending them off to labs and waiting on results. On top of that, if they come back positive for drugs (which they probably will in some form or another) they would have to dispose of a huge batch of rendered meat. And where to ? A logistical nightmare and it would be far cheaper to simply use animals raised for consumption. The only reason they collect euthanized pets is because they get them for next to nothing. 

It is not anthropomorphizing to say gassing rodents or cats is different. Noone is attributing human form or personalities onto either those cats or rodents. What it is is "choosing" one animal as being more of a pet then another. 

And that is simply human nature. Certain animals have become dear to us as companions. Is it fair? Is it right? Doesn't matter in this case, you will never, ever have it passed to gas shelter animals so they can be used in pet food. Gassing is actually more expensive and for whatever reason it seems to take dogs and cats much longer to die during gassing then it does rodents. They also stress, panic and fight and sometimes survive. The rodents I've seen put down with CO2 seemed to go down rather peacefully. Why? I don't know.

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*Bogertophis* (05-30-2018),_MissterDog_ (05-30-2018)

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## artgecko

I am a cat owner and keep my cat indoors also.  I have had "discussions" with a few old-school cat owners who just have to let their cats roam free because it is "cruel" to let them stay outdoors.  Recently, one of those owners was unable to find their indoor/outdoor cat and finally came to the conclusion that he had died or been killed... Now their new cat stays indoors.   

I think it will take a change in leash laws (like with dogs) for cat owners to start keeping them indoors.  In our neighborhood, there are several indoor/outdoor cats and possibly ferals.  A neighbor behind us has a red tabby that he lets roam and this cat often cuts though our yard.  He has ever come up to our house and stared into a window distressing our cat.  That has only happened once.  I have planed to contact the shelter and trap him if it happens again...The owner can go down to the pound to retrieve him IMO if he is going to distress our pet.  

IMO people won't change unless they are made to.  Out in the county near my town, they have issues with roaming dogs because there are no leash laws.  People complain about being attacked by groups of roaming / feral dogs.  I think it would be the same in the city if there was no leash law on the books.  I just hope they apply the same to cats.  They really do damage not only to native wildlife, but also put a risk of exposure to toxoplasmosis, etc.  We have a feral that consistently sprays someone's mailbox at the top of our street...Whenever we go for walks, etc.  we have to pass the area and it reeks...It is obviously an unaltered cat, probably male.  You can smell this stuff maybe 30-40 feet away so I have no idea how those home owners tolerate it.  

As far as dealing with the root problem, I think there will always be irresponsible owners.  Lord knows we see that enough in our hobby, so I'm assuming the percentage of bad owners of cats is probably the same, there's just more of them.  I think widespread trapping of strays, ferals, and cats that have just been let outdoors would probably help.  If that was done, and people had to go to the pound and pay a fine to get their indoor/outdoor cat, they'd stop letting them outside. 

I'm also for euthanizing feral cats... Those brought into the shelter or found outdoors.  Most ferals won't tame down to make good pets anyway and many have a lot of health issues.  My cat was found as a feral kitten at 4 weeks which is the threshold for domesticating them.  He has turned out to be a great cat, but I spent hundreds on worming, medications, vaccinations, and treatments for respiratory infection, etc.  I know our local shelter is full of older captured ferals that don't like people and will not easily acclimate to being captive pets.

Now, back to the original thread topic.  IMO, the only way this could work, would be if you had kittens that were born in a shelter.  Let's say the mom was feral, had been treated for disease, and time had passed before the kittens were born.  The kittens then were not medicated, but were euthanized via gassing.  IMO that could work, but the one issue I would see would be parasites or others that could be transferred to the babies (i.e. like worms in puppies) and whether or not those could be dealt with with out medication that would harm a reptile.   That said, kittens sell fast at shelters, so they might not willingly give up the animals that place the easiest and raise the most funds.

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_Alicia_ (05-31-2018),*Bogertophis* (05-30-2018),_zina10_ (05-30-2018)

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## Bogertophis

For any PETA investigators lurking this thread, I think you can relax now...we're pretty much beaten this idea into the ground as NOT a good idea, 
and not workable on SO many levels.   :Smile:

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## Valyrian

I would definitely do it. Cats are the most destructive of all invasive species and have caused the extinction of many indigenous species. Plus they can carry a lot of communicable viruses.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

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## sur3fir3

I believe that the seperation that we have made between food and pets is ridiculous.  Its an animal with bones and meat just like every other animal.  I will never understand why we feel the need to project our own feelings onto animals.  Its meat and bones.  Its food for something.  I would be willing to feed any animal to my snake, as long as it wont hurt him.  We are wasting pounds and pounds of meat because as a society we have decided that we shouldn't eat our pets.  People need to reconnect with their food source.  People need to butcher their own animals for food.  It is quite sad that we just goto a grocery store and buy meat without any appreciation of how it got there.  There should be a basic rule if you can't kill it, you can't eat it.

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_Godzilla78_ (05-01-2019)

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## reptilemom25

> I believe that the seperation that we have made between food and pets is ridiculous.  Its an animal with bones and meat just like every other animal.  I will never understand why we feel the need to project our own feelings onto animals.  Its meat and bones.  Its food for something.  I would be willing to feed any animal to my snake, as long as it wont hurt him.  We are wasting pounds and pounds of meat because as a society we have decided that we shouldn't eat our pets.  People need to reconnect with their food source.  People need to butcher their own animals for food.  It is quite sad that we just goto a grocery store and buy meat without any appreciation of how it got there.  There should be a basic rule if you can't kill it, you can't eat it.


As someone who grew up in an environment where we did kill and butcher a lot of what we ate, I agree that the general population needs to be more educated on where their food comes from, I don't agree that we should or need to eat our pets though. We definitely had an understanding growing up as to which animals were companion animals and which were grown or hunted for food. I feel like more people need to live by the "take only what you need" philosophy.

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## Bogertophis

> I would definitely do it. Cats are the most destructive of all invasive species and have caused the extinction of many indigenous species. Plus they can carry a lot of communicable viruses.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


I definitely would NOT do it, despite the fact that I TOTALLY agree with your 2nd & 3rd sentences...I have ZERO love for any roaming cats, pets or otherwise, & zero love 
for the harm they do in my yard & everywhere else they wrongly inhabit, including spreading parasites & diseases.

For anyone with a pet cat (meaning a cat you care about, not one that you pet once a month when it shows up for food) I strongly advise you to keep it out of my yard.   :Wink: 

I really APPLAUD Australia for doing the right thing, no matter how difficult it may be:   https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/26/asia/...ntl/index.html 
While personally I think paying a bounty for scalps might be a bit much, maybe that's what it takes for people to realize they can no longer let their ---- cats run loose.

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_Sonny1318_ (05-02-2019)

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## sur3fir3

> As someone who grew up in an environment where we did kill and butcher a lot of what we ate, I agree that the general population needs to be more educated on where their food comes from, I don't agree that we should or need to eat our pets though. We definitely had an understanding growing up as to which animals were companion animals and which were grown or hunted for food. I feel like more people need to live by the "take only what you need" philosophy.



By no means did I mean everyone should eat the same animals they keep as pets.  I more meant that using pets as food source  for other animals that eat meat is ok.  I see nothing wrong with feeding a large snake a puppy, or even an old full grown dog.  I just look at it like its the cycle of life, and why waste perfectly good meat?  I believe that feeding pythons kittens could really take care of some of our cat/dog population.  What if you could goto the pound and pick up frozen animals to be used as food ?  Not only could they make money from it, and recoup some of their cost.  We would be doing our community a service by helping to rid us of strays and sick/dying animals.  The fact is we have to put these animals down.  if these strays could provide a food source for other animals, I don't see a problem with it.    I liken it to Organ donation.  Many people when they die allow their organs to be harvested for someone else.  I see feeding our dead pets to reptiles sort of the same thing.    Their body will allow our snake or whatever to go on living.  I know my belief will not be a popular one, and some people may even get upset about it.  But I always say this.  Just cause someone doesn't agree with you it doesnt make one of you wrong.  everyones beliefs have been formed over years of experience and and circumstances.  Everyone believes according what has happened to them.  Saying that, I dont think anyone is wrong in their beliefs.  They are just different.  Who am I to say that your belief is wrong?

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*Bogertophis* (05-01-2019)

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## Bogertophis

> By no means did I mean everyone should eat the same animals they keep as pets.  I more meant that using pets as food source  for other animals that eat meat is ok.  I see nothing wrong with feeding a large snake a puppy, or even an old full grown dog.  I just look at it like its the cycle of life, and why waste perfectly good meat?  I believe that feeding pythons kittens could really take care of some of our cat/dog population.  What if you could go to the pound and pick up frozen animals to be used as food ?  Not only could they make money from it, and recoup some of their cost.  We would be doing our community a service by helping to rid us of strays and sick/dying animals.  The fact is we have to put these animals down.  if these strays could provide a food source for other animals, I don't see a problem with it.    I liken it to Organ donation.  Many people when they die allow their organs to be harvested for someone else.  I see feeding our dead pets to reptiles sort of the same thing.    Their body will allow our snake or whatever to go on living.  I know my belief will not be a popular one, and some people may even get upset about it.  But I always say this.  Just cause someone doesn't agree with you it doesnt make one of you wrong.  everyones beliefs have been formed over years of experience and and circumstances.  Everyone believes according what has happened to them.  Saying that, I dont think anyone is wrong in their beliefs.  They are just different.  Who am I to say that your belief is wrong?


We do have a huge problem with pet overpopulation, and this makes some sense, except for the problem of the chemicals in/on their bodies (pesticides & inoculations) that would not be healthy for the consumer, & of course, the major issue of changing public opinion.  This perspective is not unlike what takes place in zoos- whenever possible one thing is fed to another (whether or not the public knows about it).  It takes courage to say this, knowing the pedestal upon which many of us place our pets, and to tell you the truth, I'd much rather see shelters supported by breeders of dogs & cats being FINED for doing so (preventing the overpopulation, rather than dealing with it once it occurs).  Sadly, those of us that most love our pets & find the idea abhorrent are the ones least likely to be contributing the most to pet overpopulation.  I really want to see "puppy mills" disappear, as well as the end of "back-yard breeders" trying to make money off their pets...I'd much prefer to see fewer created so they all have responsible loving homes & are never dumped to fend for themselves as they too frequently are.  And it goes without saying, no more feral cats (or dogs)...they just keep making more & more, as kindhearted people keep on feeding them.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   They claim they do so because they love cats, but feral cats have a cruel & miserable life, not the life of a pet, so that makes no sense to me.

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_Sonny1318_ (05-02-2019)

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## sur3fir3

> We do have a huge problem with pet overpopulation, and this makes some sense, except for the problem of the chemicals in/on their bodies (pesticides & inoculations) that would not be healthy for the consumer, & of course, the major issue of changing public opinion.  This perspective is not unlike what takes place in zoos- whenever possible one thing is fed to another (whether or not the public knows about it).  It takes courage to say this, knowing the pedestal upon which many of us place our pets, and to tell you the truth, I'd much rather see shelters supported by breeders of dogs & cats being FINED for doing so (preventing the overpopulation, rather than dealing with it once it occurs).  Sadly, those of us that most love our pets & find the idea abhorrent are the ones least likely to be contributing the most to pet overpopulation.  I really want to see "puppy mills" disappear, as well as the end of "back-yard breeders" trying to make money off their pets...I'd much prefer to see fewer created so they all have responsible loving homes & are never dumped to fend for themselves as they too frequently are.  And it goes without saying, no more feral cats (or dogs)...they just keep making more & more, as kindhearted people keep on feeding them.    They claim they do so because they love cats, but feral cats have a cruel & miserable life, not the life of a pet, so that makes no sense to me.



I hadn't thought about vaccinations and flea medicine.   That would have to be researched and tested.

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## Bogertophis

> I hadn't thought about vaccinations and flea medicine.   That would have to be researched and tested.


I think we discussed this in another thread someplace...that's one issue that makes them unsuitable unless specifically raised as feeders, which many if not most ppl 
find distasteful.  That, and also parasites & diseases found in ferals...again making them a bad (and risky) idea.  

Another big problem you cannot ignore is that many people irrationally fear & hate snakes, while cats enjoy far more popularity.  If you want more hate than you ever 
imagined to rain down on both wild & pet snakes, just tell people that you're going to round up their roaming cats for snake food   :Surprised:   & don't forget to call PETA.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I'm glad that you revisited this thread despite the title that's a gut-wrench for many people, because it shows you are thinking "outside the box"...our world needs far
more of that right now.  And coincidentally I had just came across that current article from Australia's response to feral cats.  It's really the same thing that's taking 
place with non-native snakes being hunted & killed in the Florida Everglades now...something that we snake-keepers find disturbing & sad, yet for the most part we 
acknowledge that it has to be done, because the snakes being killed do not belong there & they endanger the species that do. (including the threat from new parasites) 

The huge problem is that cats have been allowed to roam for decades and in most areas, so that now people are used to the idea as normal...they do NOT care about 
all the wildlife their cats kill, or they wouldn't do it.  Many, if not most, cat owners are basically irresponsible "owners" to begin with (it's easier for their cat to defecate 
outside where they don't have to clean up a litter box all the time & buy litter), they can live with the risks of their cats being hit by cars, poisoned by annoyed neighbors, 
injured in fights with each other, even eaten by wildlife (such as coyotes), & most refuse to believe how many other things their cats kill when loose, because they aren't 
there to see it & cats don't bring everything that they harm home with them: reptiles, birds & small mammals are frequently injured & suffer greatly, only to die slowly 
much later, because cats (unless truly feral) don't even kill to eat, they just "hunt" & damage prey, then leave it...dead or barely alive.  This is unacceptable & disgusting.

This is a very tough subject for many to think about -almost as bad -& emotional- as human overpopulation  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  but both of these are subjects that need addressed in 
a rational matter, since like it or not, we inhabit an increasingly crowded planet with finite resources.  We need real leadership that understands & cares about the 
issues and we need to promote science and education, or we're not going to get there.  And we have to work across cultural lines to get this done...people have to stop 
demonizing each other and work together for the good of all, and for the good of our vanishing natural world...before it's too late.  Time is not on our sides...get real.   :Please:

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## sur3fir3

> I think we discussed this in another thread someplace...that's one issue that makes them unsuitable unless specifically raised as feeders, which many if not most ppl 
> find distasteful.  That, and also parasites & diseases found in ferals...again making them a bad (and risky) idea.  
> 
> Another big problem you cannot ignore is that many people irrationally fear & hate snakes, while cats enjoy far more popularity.  If you want more hate than you ever 
> imagined to rain down on both wild & pet snakes, just tell people that you're going to round up their roaming cats for snake food    & don't forget to call PETA.  
> 
> I'm glad that you revisited this thread despite the title that's a gut-wrench for many people, because it shows you are thinking "outside the box"...our world needs far
> more of that right now.  And coincidentally I had just came across that current article from Australia's response to feral cats.  It's really the same thing that's taking 
> place with non-native snakes being hunted & killed in the Florida Everglades now...something that we snake-keepers find disturbing & sad, yet for the most part we 
> ...



Well everyone is always caught up in saying I am right.  My belief is right.   This is instead of just working together for a common goal.  Everyone wants to believe that their beliefs are the only ones that matter, and are correct.  People sit there and spend insane amounts of time arguing their issues and their points, instead of just working together on the issues that they agree on.  There should be a standard of how to treat animals, and all animals should be treated the same.  It shouldn't matter if its a pet or an animal to eat.  They should be able to be taken care of with respect.  It shouldn't matter if its a snake you are scared of, or a piggy thats a pet.  Granted you could go above and beyond that basic care that would be required, but you cant give less.  Its proven that stressed out animals yield poor meat quality.    If the animals we eat are not put through stress I believe the meat is of a better quality.

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## Alter-Echo

Problem is, humans are a species of conflict, we live for it, it's in our very DNA. Getting everyone to agree on something and actually do something about the world's problems will likely never happen... you have a better chance of a virus wiping out humanity and the everglades pythons rising up and eating all the feral cats. 

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk

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## Bogertophis

> Problem is, humans are a species of conflict, we live for it, it's in our very DNA. Getting everyone to agree on something and actually do something about the world's problems will likely never happen... you have a better chance of a virus wiping out humanity and the everglades pythons rising up and eating all the feral cats. 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk


You may be right...but it won't stop me from "trying" to fix things.  That's not in my DNA...

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## AnnieHeart

I wouldn't ever... :Sad: 
I'm won't say that rats and mice can't be companions but, I think cats are more of a companion animal than a feeder mouse or rat which is why it would be harder to feed them to a snake...

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_MissterDog_ (05-03-2019)

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## Maxdexter

I would feed cats. Cats are wild and don't have any emotions. 

Btw It could only be done in secret as cat lovers tend to be psychotic and this hobby would be gobe. What they don't know can't hurt them.

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## Bogertophis

The truth is that we are all "wealthy" by world standards, enough so that we have the luxury of pets like snakes, dogs, cats & horses.  

All of these animals (& more) are considered "food" in many parts of the world...it comes down to poverty, hunger & survival.  As South Korea is becoming more 
Westernized thru trade, they are being influenced to stop eating dogs, but it's a very slow battle to change cultural norms.  You can go to many an Asian market 
& find all sorts of things for sale as food, including piles of live snakes.  I can understand hunger and cultural differences but what most disturbs me is the callous 
(inhumane) methods that all such animals are handled & killed.  Then again, our cattle in feedlots might have something to say about us...?

Actually, those of us who raise rodents for our snakes could be "farming" them for human food instead -& how crazy must some other cultures think we are, to 
raise & feed such "delicacies" to our snakes?   :Rolleyes2:   Here's "food for thought":  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5341521/

And do remember that in the U.S. there are many who have or still do eat squirrel.  It's not a big leap to consider rats..."the other pink meat".   :Wink:

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_Sonny1318_ (05-08-2019)

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## redshepherd

Guys, this thread is a year old and was revived almost exactly 1 year later... easy to miss, because the last post was May 2018. Not May 2019 LOL.

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_MissterDog_ (05-08-2019)

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## Ax01

> I believe that the seperation that we have made between food and pets is ridiculous.  Its an animal with bones and meat just like every other animal.  I will never understand why we feel the need to project our own feelings onto animals.  Its meat and bones.  Its food for something.  I would be willing to feed any animal to my snake, as long as it wont hurt him.  We are wasting pounds and pounds of meat because as a society we have decided that we shouldn't eat our pets.  People need to reconnect with their food source.  People need to butcher their own animals for food.  It is quite sad that we just goto a grocery store and buy meat without any appreciation of how it got there.  There should be a basic rule if you can't kill it, you can't eat it.


well aren't u the bamp champ but i did promise Mason i would look out for these kinds of things while his eyes heal, so i will have to issue u this:






> I would feed cats. Cats are wild and don't have any emotions. 
> 
> Btw It could only be done in secret as cat lovers tend to be psychotic and this hobby would be gobe. What they don't know can't hurt them.


neg'ed.

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_AbsoluteApril_ (05-08-2019),_Kira_ (05-08-2019),_MissterDog_ (05-08-2019),_redshepherd_ (05-08-2019)

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## Bogertophis

> Guys, this thread is a year old and was revived almost exactly 1 year later... easy to miss, because the last post was May 2018. Not May 2019 LOL.


I knew that when I answered the first 2019 post, but since there are about 13 recent posts, I'd say it's a relevant topic, albeit a distasteful one for many.  No one's arm 
is being twisted to read or respond, & it's not as if it's so old that the original posters are long gone.   :Wink:

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## Ax01

> Guys, this thread is a year old and was revived almost exactly 1 year later... easy to miss, because the last post was May 2018. Not May 2019 LOL.





> I knew that when I answered the first 2019 post, but since there are about 13 recent posts, I'd say it's a relevant topic, albeit a distasteful one for many.  No one's arm 
> is being twisted to read or respond, & it's not as if it's so old that the original posters are long gone.


maybe someone will bamp the "ferrets for food" thread too. that was a good discussion and i think this calendar year.

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## JodanOrNoDan

These threads are just fun to watch. Someone always ends up saying something they should have kept to themselves.

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_MissterDog_ (05-08-2019),_redshepherd_ (05-10-2019)

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