# Miscellaneous Herp Interests > Venomous Animals >  western diamondback bite wound

## bearhart

http://www.reptielenopvang.nl/bite-backpicsGB.html

this is mind-blowing

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## bearhart

I should add that its extremely graphic

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## edie

wow, i've never seen anything like that before.

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## PigsnPythons

gross.  Why did they have to open his arm??

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## cassandra

No idea...but confirms my decision that I never want to keep hots, that's for sure. YIKES.

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## jdmls88

wow Im not easily nauseated(is that a word lol) but i def thought i was going to throw up!

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## littleindiangirl

> gross.  Why did they have to open his arm??


For the swelling. It looks like the staples in each side of the skin on the opening is attached to a tightening device to let the swelling open, and as it goes down, they can draw it tight and back together.

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## littleindiangirl

He lost a lot of tissue in his arm, from the damage and from not using it for so long. Crazy!

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## bonheki

omg omg thats soooooo nasty uhgghghdqhdsoihsflis man thats nasty!!!!!

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## littleindiangirl

I found it very interesting, the progression from start to finish. Very cool!  :Good Job:

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## 771subliminal

very interesting for sure

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## Karma

:Weirdface:  wow... that was, ya. interesting

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## Elvyra's Keeper

> gross.  Why did they have to open his arm??


They opened the arm to allow swelling. Without openning it, it would plit opne it'self and be harder to heal. (I'm not positive, but I know they do that for a lot of things)

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## MPenn

> gross.  Why did they have to open his arm??


This is a common practice when the swelling becomes to great and the possibility of compartment syndrome is evident.

Compartment syndrome is a painful condition that results when pressure within the muscles builds to dangerous levels. This prevents nourishment and oxygen from reaching nerve and muscle cells and can cause irreparable damage.

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## veerman73

thats crazy...all that from a snake bite

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## OhClueless1

Dang....  I thought for sure during the middle of all those shot that any second the next pic would show just a stub of what was left of the arm. 

I will never keep Hots... that guy is lucky he still has a hand and the sheer amount of time it took to heal.

Btw... some of those pics are gross!  Ick.  lol

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## Hack the Maniac

I'm still keeping my Atrox.

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## tweets_4611

That was awesome.....not that he got bit, or that it got that far, but the healing process and whatnot was amazing to see. I'll never keep hots, but I knew that before I saw that. Thanks for posting it!! I don't feel quite so bad knowing that he got back almost complete use of his are, but it is amazing to see what the body can handle! And how primitive modern medicine really is sometimes...

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## MelissaFlipski

> I should add that its extremely graphic


Uh... I looked before I saw your warning.  I closed it once I saw the slices on both sides of the arm.  Yikes!

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## Patrick Long

thats absolutely crazy. im shocked at what damamage was incoured there. unbelievable

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## juddb

That is out of control!  Great threaad. :Good Job:

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## pythontricker

> gross.  Why did they have to open his arm??


to relieve the pressure of the the venom. it reproduces within the body. and it builds up it then eats a way at surrounding tissue. if you watch snakes on a plane they show you that sort of thing. lol. this kid gets bitten and they cut open his hand. all this gooy stuff comes out. kind of cool. but that looks like it hurt really bad! i read this on a website. i forget which website though. i didnt get my info from snakes on a plane.

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## Argentra

Woh... that was intense. That poor guy...

I don't get sick looking at stuff like that, but now my arms are both tingling and don't want to move...  :Smile: 

Man am I glad I moved out of west Texas.  :Very Happy:

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## Blu Mongoose

From the time I was about twelve or thirteen, not sure about the exact age, I used to collect hots. I was always careful not to get bit. I was so mad when the last one I caught, my uncle and my dad took it out in the yard and killed it.  When I look back at that I wonder, "What the hell was I doing?" :Surprised: 
It's amazing how more sensible age makes you.  I wouldn't want to try now, I've gotten to be such a klutz that I dropped the spatula while cooking.
I know that poor guy had to go thru hell.

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## Perry

Not the most plesant thing to look at however very interesting. Thankfully only 1 hot up here.  :Very Happy:

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## Hack the Maniac

What kind of hot do you have perry?

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## Perry

I meant wild.  :Razz:  I wouldn't even consider keeping a hot at this point in my life.

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## bender29

Wow, that's insane.

All of that for a rattlesnake bite? I wonder what the after-effects look like of a bite from a much more venomous snake...

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## Thunder Kat

if you're gonna keep hots why wouldn't you keep the anti venom close by.  and could a rattler bite really get that bad in 12 minutes :Confused: ????  i've seen bad bites before but wow that was the worse.  i plan to work with hots in the future and after that any hot that i'm about to come in contact with in any way i will have a syringe filled with the anti venom right next to the tank :Very Happy: .

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## Larry Suttles

Wow mans thats unreal. 

I hear people rant and rave about the power and toxicity of some exotics hots like cobras and gabbies but I'm telling you a good ole' homegrown Atrox packs one mean punch. 

Glad to see he survived and looks to be doing well.

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## littleindiangirl

> if you're gonna keep hots why wouldn't you keep the anti venom close by.  and could a rattler bite really get that bad in 12 minutes????  i've seen bad bites before but wow that was the worse.  i plan to work with hots in the future and after that any hot that i'm about to come in contact with in any way i will have a syringe filled with the anti venom right next to the tank.


I believe anti venom is pretty expensive. And I dont know if it has a shelf life at all, but i thought I heard that somewhere's.

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## Christina

that's really awesome- i feel bad for the guy, but seeing it all from start to finish was pretty intense- my dad was an er nurse, so i'm used to hearing about all his crazy gross stories- i'm not squemish, let's just say that.  as for hots, i don't think i'll ever own any, especially since they're illegal in illinois...cool pics though!

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## MPenn

> I believe anti venom is pretty expensive. And I dont know if it has a shelf life at all, but i thought I heard that somewhere's.


Antivenin is not all that expensive. There are some that are but it depends on the type and where it is made. As antivenin's are a freeze-dried powder, they do have a fairly long shelf life. I would say a few years at least.

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## Chuck

Michael 

Crofab is what is commonly used in Crotalus envenomations correct? Would it be ture to say that due to the large distribution of Crotalus species throughout the united states is why so much is made and available. I guess what I am trying to say in a round about way is that since rattlesnakes are native to the united states and common in many areas that the antivenom is stocked more. If you were invenomanated by say Bothrops jararacussu which venom is harder to come by you might have a hard time finding it in the US,maybe at a zoo but it would be very expensive. The only other thing I though of to add to what you said was that even if the venom isn't expensive getting envenomated can still cost big bucks to treat by the time you walk out of the hospital.

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## Thunder Kat

> I believe anti venom is pretty expensive. And I dont know if it has a shelf life at all, but i thought I heard that somewhere's.


but the hospital bill i'm guessing is much more expansive and more painful.  besides if you want to take the risk of owning a life threatening animal then you should take all of the precautions like keeping medication that can save your life and limbs.  and all of the anti venom i've seen for sale (most of the time the same people that sell hots sell anti venom) cost about as much as the snake.  so imo if you can afford the hot you can afford the anti venom.

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## tweets_4611

There were some secondary infections that set in as well....if you look at the caption of some of the pictures, at one point it says something about staff. There was also a second surgery, which I can't tell if it was b/c of something secondary, or b/c of the origanal swelling and bite. Not that that is what caused it to be so bad, but I think it would have healed a bit easier if there hadn't been the secondary infections.




> Crofab is what is commonly used in Crotalus envenomations correct? Would it be ture to say that due to the large distribution of Crotalus species throughout the united states is why so much is made and available. I guess what I am trying to say in a round about way is that since rattlesnakes are native to the united states and common in many areas that the antivenom is stocked more. If you were invenomanated by say Bothrops jararacussu which venom is harder to come by you might have a hard time finding it in the US,maybe at a zoo but it would be very expensive. The only other thing I though of to add to what you said was that even if the venom isn't expensive getting envenomated can still cost big bucks to treat by the time you walk out of the hospital.



He isn't in the United States....the web site (or at least the photo gallery web site) is origanally in another language. I had emailed him to ask him some questions, and he told me again that English isn't his first language. If he is somewhere where rattlesnakes aren't as common, that might be why there wasn't antivenom ready. Just a thought...  :Razz:

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## MPenn

> Michael 
> 
> Crofab is what is commonly used in Crotalus envenomations correct? Would it be ture to say that due to the large distribution of Crotalus species throughout the united states is why so much is made and available. I guess what I am trying to say in a round about way is that since rattlesnakes are native to the united states and common in many areas that the antivenom is stocked more. If you were invenomanated by say Bothrops jararacussu which venom is harder to come by you might have a hard time finding it in the US,maybe at a zoo but it would be very expensive. The only other thing I though of to add to what you said was that even if the venom isn't expensive getting envenomated can still cost big bucks to treat by the time you walk out of the hospital.



Chuck, it really depends on where you buy the antivenin from. You can get some from Mexico for a lot cheaper than what you can buy here. Of course, it depends on the company you buy from. 
I am a firm believer that if you decide to take on the responsiblity of owning a hot that you also stock your own antivenin. There is no reason why a zoo or other institution should be put in jeopardy because of your mistake.
We were actually trying to set up a antivenin bank in Texas with a few select people throughout the state that would hold the antivenin and be able to transport it if need be. Something similar to the Venom One in Dade County in Florida.
A lot of the exotic species' bites are treated with the closest related antivenin species wise. There are some hots that there is just not any antivenin for. 
A hospital visit can easily run you over $15,000 depending on the severity of the bite and your reaction to the antivenin.

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## Whit-e

Wow what an experience.  Brings back memories for me, not the biting part.... my Dad and I run across Rattlers all the time when we go horse back riding, I am always the unlucky one, my horse has stepped on at least two and my Dad always seems to want to chase them.  He needs to see this!!

All that from one fang just barely nicking him??? Did I read that right???...... crazy!!!  Glad to see he got through it and kept his arm with little permanent damage!!!

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## Pork Chops N' Corn Bread

Imagine the days before they had antivenom and people trained to work with snake bites..... That bite could have been 100x worse before you died. The bite isn't too bad, its the scarring from the cut to relieve pressure(Fasciotomy sp?) in the arm that caused the most damage, probably saved his arm though.

Imagine this
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libr.../554?offset=14

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## wolfy-hound

Wow.  Thanks for posting.  Very graphic pictures, but facinating too.  
Anti-venin also takes time to prepare to inject.  
The venom of a atrox eats flesh, so even with anti-venin available within minutes, you may end up with as much damage.
I don't keep hots.  I'm such a klutz, I'd die.  I still would like to keep a luet monocled cobra one day.. but I have every bad luck thing possible happen.  I'd get bitten in the eyelid or something else horrible.
Some of the neuro-venoms wouldn't give you the graphic damage, but it would still be horrible damage, just not quite a picture-worthy.
Cheers for the guy healing so well!

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## Pintado

Wow! I must say I have been playing with the idea of getting hots. That will surely make you rethink. I am a science teacher and my class was amazed by the photos.

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## herpmajor

Wow. Thats going to leave a mark. :Surprised:

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## Danegerous

The amazing thing to me is 1) the absolute power and evestation that one little bite did. Keep in mind there was only one tooth contact with very little venom introduced into his body. 2) how absolutely amazing the body is at treating stuff like that. 

When wounds of that magnitude enter the body, there are certain things it does to combat them. For instance, the histamine and other natural "bad guy fighters" that the body would normally send for an allergic reaction like this (because that's what it really is), would actually do more to amplify the venom potency. The venom is a poison, sure, but it also is a collection of enzymes that aim to paralyze and break down tissue. Not as much for a hunting reason, but one heck of an awesome defense. 

When he was first bitten, the hand reacted in the swelling, actually, swelling and redness are signs the body is fighting off the invasion. But the natural defenses actually aide in spreading the harmful toxins which cause more damage. I didn't see him mention the meds they had him on, I'm sure some pretty heavy steroids were used along with some outrageous anti-histamines and other blockers. 

That is so clever the way they cause damage to reduce damage (the opening of the hand and arm). By opening both up, as someone stated earlier, they can at least control the degree of tissue damage. Clearly, they didn't even open him up wide enough as there was still tearing. The hard part will be trying to regain that movement in both his arm and thumb. That rehab must be done quickly and efficiently, as the body will only allow the "re-breakdown" of that tissue so many times. 

Both his parts will never be the same, he says his elbow has regained a decent anoubt of movement, but that's because hardly any tendons in his elbow were even touched. The scarring is the only thing to overcome, and the skin is very stretchable. The thumb on the other hand, will never ragain most of its mobility. Those tendons are all very specific and are required for fine motor movement. 

Oh well, I guess one thumb is a small price to pay for your life. You live and learn, huh?

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## Laooda

Can you imagine... over 9 months of dealing with that!?!??  :Confused:

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## belvis

the "Wound Vac"  he used is made by KCI---San Antonio Texas-----it retails for $26,000----but is only rented out----it cost 100 to 300 a day in rent depending on your insurance-----each dressing costs 15-80 depending on size and type------his bill will exceed 80k plus--depending on rehab--hope he had insurance.

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## graffixx

Maybe I shouldnt have read this I guess all my hots are going to the next sale... thats just crazy

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## ADEE

wow, thats insane.. not just what he had to go through but think about how far our modern medicine has brought us! That is amazing! Amazing he lived, amazing thats all thats left of his wound (alot of scarring but nothing compared to what it was in those first few shots) i will NEVER EVER EVER EVER have a HOT ever and this series of photos totally confirms it.

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## RainyJeremy

That's simply amazing, one little bite caused all of that.

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## moespeaking

seems to get worse before it gets better.

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## graffixx

I cant seem to find any info on procedure if my saw scale gets me   (Except theres not enough time to call for help)

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## Colin Vestrand

one would hope you'd have the antivenom on hand for your saw scale... especially with how quick they are.

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## nixer

> I cant seem to find any info on procedure if my saw scale gets me   (Except theres not enough time to call for help)


lol atleast you got a good idea what your up against

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## drugaria

> gross.  Why did they have to open his arm??


To save it .

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## N4S

I have spoken to the person who was bit in the link. 

I have asked him to come here to speak about it.  :Dancin' Banana:

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## sneakysnake1

Hi N4S , i am here :Wink: 
Ask what ever you want!
Please remember ; English is not my 1st language , because i live in the Netherlands (Europe) and the only venomous snakes here are vipera species and they are less venomous than a copperhead.

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## N4S

*How did you find out I posted the link on the other forum?* I already know but some may wonder.  :Smile: 

*How long did it take for the pain to set in?* 

*Can you explain why the doctors made that wide long incision in your arm?* I thought initally that is was to relieve some of the swelling or to let some of the puss or whatever have a way to get out of your arm. 
*
Has this been the only time you were ever bit?* 

*Is the snake still alive?*

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## sneakysnake1

How did you find out I posted the link on the other forum? 
**I was checking my stats and was curious why this forum was looking so many times at my site!

How long did it take for the pain to set in? 
**I allways heard it would be in minutes , but i was suprised that it took more than 2 hours before the pain set in.

Can you explain why the doctors made that wide long incision in your arm? I thought initally that is was to relieve some of the swelling or to let some of the puss or whatever have a way to get out of your arm. 
**The incisions where made to relieve the pressure of the Compartment Syndrom and the operation is named Fasciotomy.
There was no puss , but there was necrose (dead tissue) the surgeons removed later on.

Has this been the only time you were ever bit? 
**I have bin bitten about 400 times , but never by a hot.
I handle lots of snakes , so there is allways al certain risc.

Is the snake still alive? 
Yes he is and he is doing very well , since he met a female :Very Happy: 
He has no side-effects from biting me :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:

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## sneakysnake1

Some extra info;

At the time i was bitten , i made some "minor" mistakes ;
*i was tired (work with little or no sleep)
*i cleaned the other tanks first , venomous snakes last
*this animal was relocated in the previous week , so was allready stressed
*the tank was low to the ground and i was not used to that
Overall there was a number of reasons this bite took place.
Now i have changed my rules , protocols and habits in order to make working with hots safer!
I consider this as a VERY LOUD wake-up call!

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## kurgan

Health insurance is not an issue for western europeans like the dutch.  I can only imagine what health insurance premiums that actually cover keepers of hots in the US cost per month, if such things even exist.  I imagine a treatment like he underwent would bankrupt almost anyone

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## chetman7

WOW....I wasn't expecting it to heal that nicely.

That was pretty nasty though and now my stomach hurts

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## sneakysnake1

Health insurance is not a problem at all in the Netherlands.
Whatever i payd last year , i know it was worth it!
The total price of my hospitaltreatments is around 115.000 dollars.

A positiv attitude helps the healingproces and allso the support of my family was great.
Normally it takes about 14 - 18 months to heal , in my case is was 7 months.

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## Morph Addict

115,000 is a lot of $ for anyone really.  Health insurance would help cover you from snake bites in the USA I am pretty sure (mine does) but I have to pay a montly premium ($200 a mos for my family, thanks to USBank Corp.)  But damn!  I could not imagine just the operation itself, let alone the bill!

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## sneakysnake1

Without insurance , both bill and operation would be equally painfull :Very Happy: 
In the Netherlands everybody has health insurance unlike USA...

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## belvis

the wound vac saved your arm a lot of healing time.

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## Twitch_1993

I was actually considering getting a hot but not anymore.  :Surprised:         Nice medi bill though   :Salute:

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## sneakysnake1

De vac was used for about 1 week and saved at least 2 weeks in healing of the wound.
In Belgium (small country next to the Netherlands) a drunken hot-owner stuck his tongue out to his rattler with open window and the snake bit him in his tongue. He lived for two weeks and died of suffication DISPITE the use of 24 vials of anti-venom.
He was bragging to his friends , now his friends are bragging about him :Snake:

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## Twitch_1993

Sounds like fun, they walk in a bar, a drunk starts ranting about his car, etc. The guys say "oh yeah my friend choked on his own tounge"

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