# Site General > General Herp >  Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons

## Skiploder

Where did the current one time per weeks at 10% to 15% prey weight to snake weight come from?  Any scientific data?

Before anyone answers, research was done on other more active species.  What was determined was that adult females roughly (190 grams) of this more active species with a quicker metabolism needed 25 to 30 rodents yearly to be able to produce viable, large clutches.  

For males of the same species, it was determined that 14 rodents would be required to sustain it's normal activity through the year.

The study was based on 190 gram snakes (average) and 30 gram prey items (roughly 16% snake to prey weight ratio per meal).

However if you calculate the TOTAL number of meals, a breeding female needed 900 grams of food over the course of a year and a male needed 420 grams of food.

In order to compare apples to apples, the weekly caloric requirement breaks down as such:

Females = 17 grams per week.

Males = 8 grams per week.

Which means that the % of snake to prey weight ratio for an active south american snake with a high metabolism is 8% for breeding females and 4% for males.

Now keep in mind that these snakes are not equally active throughout the year - meaning that the females ingest the main portion of their caloric intake over a six month period.  Males slightly longer.  Still, if we apply it to captive animals which (except for rare instances) are kept in enclosures that do not permit the same level of energy expenditure, we could argue that the caloric requirements are less than the 8%/4% indicated by studies.

So....

Where do we get the 10% to 15% of body weight recommendations for ball pythons?  They are fairly inactive snakes with slow metabolisms that are prone to captive obesity...can anybody back up this number?  Furthermore, this caloric recommendation is not dependent on sex or reproductive status...or is it?

Again, studies have been done on other species - species which are more active and have faster metabolisms.  Metabolisms which are maybe 50% efficient.....

...and those studies show that these species need less calories by percentage of prey size than is currently being recommended for ball pythons.

First things first - where did the 10% to 15"% number come from? Anybody?

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## Mykuhl

I have no idea where the 10-15% recommendation came from but from the limited amount of reading I have done it seems to more accurately apply to young growing snakes as opposed to adults. Maybe it became a generalization that people applied over the lifetime of the snake.

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## Eric Alan

I suspect that you may be trying to get us to overthink this topic, or to point out that we may be overthinking this topic. Either way, here are my two cents worth:

*The 10-15% guideline likely came about as a result of learned experience through feeding young ball pythons*. I personally have not seen this size recommendation being made for anything beyond hatchling or young adult snakes. Citing Ball Pythons: The History, Natural History, Care, and Breeding, by Dave and Tracy Barker, as my source, "the best meal for a ball python is a single rodent that's large enough to make a barely discernible lump in its body that last for two to four days." Through trial and error of seeing what size lump results from what size rodent, I believe this to be where this site's 10-15% recommendation for young ball pythons came from.
In my own, limited, experience with young ball pythons, I have found the 10-15% range to generally produce the kind of lump that the Barker's describe. This is why I personally have found it to be useful. It certainly should not be a rigid rule though, as feeding decisions should be specific to the individual snake.

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## Skiploder

Or none of the above.

I think people should do more thinking and more questioning when it comes to advice that is not backed with any basis in nature or foundation in natural history.

There are a lot of overfed snakes..mainly because people tend to follow advice or guidelines without bothering to ask questions.

Let's put it this way....thinking is good.  Questioning is good.  Improving husbandry through science is good.  Doing something because someone else goes it....too many variables to be good.

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## Mykuhl

Is there any scientific data that tells us the recommended quantity and frequency that is required to optimally raise ball pythons throughout their various stages of development? I for one would love to have this as a resource if there is. If so, do you have any links to this information Skiploder?

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## Eric Alan

Fair enough.

As thinking pertains to this particular subject, thinking about the basis for the percentage-based feeding recommemdation is good. Thinking that it broadly applies to much more than a tool that can be used to purchase/select appropriately sized meals for a young ball python? Not so much. As you said - too many variables.

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## Skiploder

> Is there any scientific data that tells us the recommended quantity and frequency that is required to optimally raise ball pythons throughout their various stages of development? I for one would love to have this as a resource if there is. If so, do you have any links to this information Skiploder?


Never seen it for ball pythons Mykuhl.  Seen it for other species and it's well beneath the 10 to 15% ratio.




> Fair enough.
> 
> As thinking pertains to this particular subject, thinking about the basis for the percentage-based feeding recommemdation is good. Thinking that it broadly applies to much more than a tool that can be used to purchase/select appropriately sized meals for a young ball python? Not so much. As you said - too many variables.


Eric, I've seen a lot of over feeding related health issues in many species of snakes.  Some snakes do not metabolize high levels of fat very well and form lipomas or liposarcomas in a fairly predictable pattern if overfed.

Considering that ball pythons - especially males - climb and feed on birds, we could probably hypothesize that the average tupperware-housed male ball python fed 15% of his body mass weekly in rodents is tracking quite a bit above what he was designed to take in considering the lack of activity.

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## Eric Alan

When you're referring to males climbing and catching, are you referring to all life stages of males? It would make sense to me that sexually mature males would display these active behaviors. However, it also makes sense to me that younger snakes would be more prone to hiding and ambushing rodents (and likely as many as they can reasonably snag) so as not to expose themselves to predators.

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## Lizardlicks

That reminds me to ask what most everyone's stance is on feeding the occasional chick to a BP is.  As I understand it, while they do sometimes take birds in the wild, BPs are mostly designed as a burrow dwelling snake, and live primarily off of rodents.  They are of course highly opportunistic in the wild; you have to eat what you can catch!  But does offering different prey items have a benefit nutritionally or psychologically for the snake?  Draw backs?  The only one I ever see discussed is the inevitable horrendous smelling poo...

Is it just something some owners do for their own amusement/peace of mind?

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## gameonpython

Skiploder, I must say that I agree with you. In fact, I never even heard of the 15% of body weight rule until I joined this forum. You are completely right in that advice is being given but no reasoning is provided and sometimes it doesn't even make logical sense. I did ask "why" and the answer I got was "doesn't matter why just do it" 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Skiploder

> When you're referring to males climbing and catching, are you referring to all life stages of males? It would make sense to me that sexually mature males would display these active behaviors. However, it also makes sense to me that younger snakes would be more prone to hiding and ambushing rodents (and likely as many as they can reasonably snag) so as not to expose themselves to predators.


Eric, there are two studies in which birds were noted as substantial parts of a ball python's diet - mainly male.  One study was based on the gastric contents (I've provided it before to people), the other was a study regarding denning behavior in which the behavior was noted as prevalent.  I'd have to refresh my memory as to whether it was associated with breeding behavior - in which males forego denning and ambushing while actively seeking out mates- or some other behavior.

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## Skiploder

> That reminds me to ask what most everyone's stance is on feeding the occasional chick to a BP is.  As I understand it, while they do sometimes take birds in the wild, BPs are mostly designed as a burrow dwelling snake, and live primarily off of rodents.  They are of course highly opportunistic in the wild; you have to eat what you can catch!  But does offering different prey items have a benefit nutritionally or psychologically for the snake?  Draw backs?  The only one I ever see discussed is the inevitable horrendous smelling poo...
> 
> Is it just something some owners do for their own amusement/peace of mind?


Well, while many people keep ball pythons as pets, not many people keep them long enough to fully realize how dietary choices ultimately affect these snakes.

In other words, there may be long term consequences to feeding a snake who eats several different prey items just one item.  I've seen it in boomslangs and other dispholidines that I've kept until they become senior citizens.  Same with some other colubrids.  They develop some debilitating health problems as they age.

The behavior in males is deliberate - not necessarily casual.  I'd have to re-read the papers as to the behavioral or biological necessity that drive avian predation.

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## Skiploder

> Skiploder, I must say that I agree with you. In fact, I never even heard of the 15% of body weight rule until I joined this forum. You are completely right in that advice is being given but no reasoning is provided and sometimes it doesn't even make logical sense. I did ask "why" and the answer I got was "doesn't matter why just do it" 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It's always good to question things.  If someone can't give you an answer, then you should always strive to provide your own.

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## Skiploder

Okay folks, here's an example I've been discussing with another member offline.

That member has pits and kings and was wondering about dietary intake if set at 10 to 15%.  No brumating is taking place.

Studies have been done on the feeding habits of various pituophis, but remember those studies are on snakes in the wild - snakes that are actively foraging, digging burrows and brumating. These studies show that these snakes will eat prey that are anywhere from 1% to 136% of their body mass. 

However the mean (average prey size) is 21%.

Now keep in mind that these snakes are brumating between October and April and actively feeding only 5 or 6 months out of the year. These snakes are also more active than anything kept in captivity.

Without going into all the detail, let's try something...let's assume you have a bull snake that weighs 1000 grams. In the wild, that snake eats 20 weeks out of the year and consumes prey items 21% of it's body weight. That means that every week it's eating a prey item that weighs 210 grams. Over the course of the year, it then consumes 4,200 grams of prey (210 grams x 20 weeks).

In captivity and in the absence of brumation, you are feeding that same snake 12.5% of it's mass every week (125 grams). That means that over 52 weeks, that same snake is getting 6,500 grams of food and it's working less to get it.

In the wild, gopher snakes for example eat a diet that consists of about 75% mammals and 25% birds, bird eggs or lizards.

In short, if the goal is to mimic what a wild and extremely active pit eats, you would adjust that percentage to get closer to the wild model. If you were to match the 4,200 grams over 52 weeks, the prey size percentage would drop from 12.5% to 8%. 

Now with king snakes, the average prey size mass is 33%. So with a hypothetical wild cal king weighing 1000 grams, it would eat an average meal of 330 grams for 20 weeks or a total of 6,600 grams in a year. The same animal if fed at the target 12.5% (10 to 15 range mean) over a year in captivity would be fed 6,500 grams (125 x 52 weeks) of food and no adjustment would be needed.

Unless the lack of activity was taken into account.

That's why it is important to question.  Thats why it's important to look at what these animals eat in the wild.  While there may be no psychological benefits per se, I think it behooves every keeper to not overfeed their snakes and to feed them a calorically proper diet.

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## Mykuhl

Thank you very much for providing that information Skiploder. It puts things into perspective.  A snake kept in captivity will not be as active as one in the wild so it is only logical that we conclude that it will need to consume less calories. Also, as already stated ball pythons are not what you would consider an active species, so I think the 10-15% rule goes out the window for adults. Now what about growing baby/juvenile snakes, surely they would need to consume quite a bit more food(proportionately) than an adult since they are rapidly growing? 

I personally am somewhat more interested in the requirements of young snakes over that of adults.

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## mohawk

Came across this bit of info that relates to this discussion.............



In his book Whats Wrong with My Snake? John Rossi DVM, MA cites a 1982 study by noted herpetologist H. S. Fitch, which found that snakes from temperate climates require between two and four times their body weight in food per year. For a typical 3-pound ball python (Python regius) this would equate to 6 to 12 pounds of food per year. If the snake eats rats that weigh approximately a quarter of a pound, a 3-pound ball python would require about 25 to 50 rats per year. Larger prey would allow for longer times between meals; this ball python could eat a 1-pound rat every other month, and still get enough food to survive and grow. To help provide context for these figures, the average American consumes approximately 2,000 pounds of food annually, or about 10 to 12 times the average human weight.
Metabolism
Cold-blooded animals like snakes have very slow metabolisms. Though snakes may produce extra metabolic heat when digesting prey, they typically dont produce enough to heat the animal from the inside. As snakes require less food to fuel their furnaces, they can go long periods without eating. In addition to their normally slow metabolisms, some snakes can reduce their resting metabolic rate by 72 percent when food is scarce; this allows them to function on even fewer calories.

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## Alicia

What a great idea for a thread.




> In his book Whats Wrong with My Snake? John Rossi DVM, MA cites a 1982 study by noted herpetologist H. S. Fitch, which found that snakes from temperate climates require between two and four times their body weight in food per year. For a typical 3-pound ball python (Python regius) this would equate to 6 to 12 pounds of food per year. If the snake eats rats that weigh approximately a quarter of a pound, a 3-pound ball python would require about 25 to 50 rats per year


But ball pythons are not temperate snakes. They live in a long, geographic band between the Sahara and the equator.

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## yl4870

> What a great idea for a thread.
> 
> 
> 
> But ball pythons are not temperate snakes. They live in a long, geographic band between the Sahara and the equator.



Would that mean that they have much higher rates of metabolism?

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## Alicia

> Would that mean that they have much higher rates of metabolism?


While I do not know if anyone has done a study on the metabolisms of ball pythons (have they??) . . . Based on my own observations, having kept temperate snakes, honestly, the opposite appears to be true.  

Ball pythons appear, to me, to have a slower metabolism than the temperate snakes I've kept when using rate of pooping as a measure. I'm mostly out of temperate snakes now, but I still have my old rosy boa -- even eating sparingly, she poops more than the balls. They also poop less frequently than Angolan and carpet pythons. My BPs poop about once a month; Angolans and the rosy (other than in winter), once a week to just over a week; my carpet poops about 2-3 weeks, but is on a 4-week feeding shedule. Carpet python poop, is a lot more BP poop in relation to their body size than what the Angolans and the rosy leave. I don't have any now, but as an example of a really high metabolism, temperate snake, garters I swear go daily.

I know that's not scientific, but digestion is something I can observe at home. Maybe someone else can chime in.

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## PitOnTheProwl

I think there are some people that stick with what is "safe" when offering advice.
If it is common practice in the hobby then there can be less fallout.
I stick with certain recommendations like this as well, however I am also of the "just because it works in my house doesn't mean it will in yours."
That being said, I have not been in this hobby as long as many of the members here that I have learned a lot from. 
Both what to and what not to do.

As far as feedings go, I probably do overfeed because I offer weekly though I have my own twist on it.
Hatchlings get offered every four or five days and I don't worry if they eat or not after they have taken a hopper on their own at least once.
My adults get offered till they are done. This might be over feeding but I also keep track of their poos. 
If their body is using what they are eating then there should be minimal coming out of the other end.
If they are leaving huge piles then their intake get regulated back.

I know this is not very scientific as far as what Skip is looking for but it is what has been working for me.

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_Sonny1318_ (02-18-2017)

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## Lizardlicks

> I know this is not very scientific as far as what Skip is looking for but it is what has been working for me.


Seems like without a whole lot of formal research done on the matter, comparing and contrasting our observations at home is going to be the most scientific we can get.  It would be nice if something concrete was organized for data collection though!

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## Skiploder

Some food for thought - especially with regards to differing diets of male and female balls pythons:

_Concerning the python diet, Luiselli and Angelci (1998) demonstrated that, although rodents were the main prey type for both sexes, the males differed from the females because they fed significantly more often on arboreal prey (birds), whereas the female diet was based nearly exclusively on terrestrial rodents.  The authors hypothesized that these differences were attributable to a higher use of the arboreal niche by males, as also suggested by some incidental observations of males climbed on low tree branches.
_

So males are more apt to climb and also have adapted to actively hunt and make use of less calorically dense prey types.

There are further studies that confirm this fact (increase arboreality of males vs. females/more varied diet) that were incidental to studies on why female and male ball pythons carry differing external parasite loads.

I would therefore argue that even if 10% were adequate for a female, male ball pythons have been studies as more active hunters that could potentially expend more calories hunting down avian prey that have less calories than mammalian prey.

A large rat is roughly 62% protein, 33% fat and has an energy rating of 6.40 kcal/gram of rat.

A chick has a similar protein profile, but 11% less fat and an energy rating of 5.80 kcal/gram.

However we can probably safely say that wild african songbirds and other ball python target prey items are more active and less fatty than a domestic chick or quail.

Bottom line - even if 10% was a safe prey mass ratio for female ball pythons, it could easily be argued that if may be too much for males.

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## Skiploder

> While I do not know if anyone has done a study on the metabolisms of ball pythons (have they??) . . . Based on my own observations, having kept temperate snakes, honestly, the opposite appears to be true.  
> 
> Ball pythons appear, to me, to have a slower metabolism than the temperate snakes I've kept when using rate of pooping as a measure. I'm mostly out of temperate snakes now, but I still have my old rosy boa -- even eating sparingly, she poops more than the balls. They also poop less frequently than Angolan and carpet pythons. My BPs poop about once a month; Angolans and the rosy (other than in winter), once a week to just over a week; my carpet poops about 2-3 weeks, but is on a 4-week feeding shedule. Carpet python poop, is a lot more BP poop in relation to their body size than what the Angolans and the rosy leave. I don't have any now, but as an example of a really high metabolism, temperate snake, garters I swear go daily.
> 
> I know that's not scientific, but digestion is something I can observe at home. Maybe someone else can chime in.


I have beaked snakes and dispholidines that will process a prey item in less than 30 hours.  Same with psammophylax and philodryas spp.  But these area active, quick moving snakes - even in captivity.

Drymarchon, if offered a thermoregulation zone will poop within a few days of feeding.

Ball pythons poop slow...they move slow and once their husbandry needs are met, move very rarely.  I'd argue that even without a study, we can say they have at least a slower metabolism than many other species.

What I'd like to see if a study regarding the efficiency of the metabolism of ball pythons.  In south american colubrids, that efficiency is about 50%.  In some african colubrids, that number goes up a few points.  Never seen one on ball pythons...

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## Mike41793

I've never followed the 10-15% rule because I don't have time to weigh all the rodents out before feeding them and weigh all the snakes out to figure what they need. 

A full grown ASF (which is supposedly the natural food source they see in the wild) is smaller than a medium rat. And obviously in the wild they're not ONLY eating full grown ASFs lol. So these people that feed medium or even large rats to their  females weekly amaze me lol. I'm happy if my females eat 3 small rats a month and males eat 2 a month. That is considered a great month for me haha. Meanwhile there are some breeders I know who get like 6 mediums or larger into their girls a month. That's sooooooo much food imo. Haha

Like pit said, about monitoring their bowl movements too. I agree with that heavily. Compared to other snakes I've worked with, balls seem to be more proficient at converting meals to weight. I'd assume fat storage for going through the breeding process, they need energy for that. Males obviously don't need that at all, so it's unnecessary to pack them with food. Anyways, like I was saying, if my females are eating well and not taking these huge craps, then I consider that a win because to me that means they're putting it to good use and it's not a waste. 

Really, it's a constant learning process for me while working with these snakes. What doesn't work one year gets adjusted the next year. What works one year may still get adjusted, just for fun to see what else works. I like to experiment with them and try different methods for every aspect of keeping them. It's fun learning more and more about them that way.  :Smile:

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## Skiploder

> Compared to other snakes I've worked with, balls seem to be more proficient at converting meals to weight. I'd assume fat storage for going through the breeding process, they need energy for that. Males obviously don't need that at all, so it's unnecessary to pack them with food. Anyways, like I was saying, if my females are eating well and not taking these huge craps, then I consider that a win because to me that means they're putting it to good use and it's not a waste. 
> 
> Really, it's a constant learning process for me while working with these snakes. What doesn't work one year gets adjusted the next year. What works one year may still get adjusted, just for fun to see what else works. I like to experiment with them and try different methods for every aspect of keeping them. It's fun learning more and more about them that way.


Apparently, only trivial amounts of energy are expended during the brooding/maternal incubation process...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...03347204004877

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## Mike41793

> Apparently, only trivial amounts of energy are expended during the brooding/maternal incubation process...
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...03347204004877


Interesting! Well, even more evidence to back up my point then. They don't need the big mediums and large rats. Like I said, three meals a month for my females is considered good for me. 

And as you said, if males aren't busy searching for food and just sitting in tubs, they certainly don't need excess haha. 

I think this raises another debate that people love to have.... Breeding females need to be at least 1500g before you start pairing... Wrong! 6% of 1200g means the female would only lose 72g throughout the breeding process. Not a huge deal. Even if they were losing 10%, it wouldn't be a significant amount of body weight. Because what they lose is probably just fat or water weight anyways lol. I stopped eating dairy less than six months ago and have lost 15% of my body weight, without changing anything else about my diet or lifestyle. Does that mean you won't pair me to any of the hot mom's with tattoos and piercings like you did last year, uncle skippy?!?!  :Sad:

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_Andybill_ (02-23-2015)

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## Lizardlicks

> Interesting! Well, even more evidence to back up my point then. They don't need the big mediums and large rats. Like I said, three meals a month for my females is considered good for me. 
> 
> And as you said, if males aren't busy searching for food and just sitting in tubs, they certainly don't need excess haha. 
> 
> I think this raises another debate that people love to have.... Breeding females need to be at least 1500g before you start pairing... Wrong! 6% of 1200g means the female would only lose 72g throughout the breeding process. Not a huge deal. Even if they were losing 10%, it wouldn't be a significant amount of body weight. Because what they lose is probably just fat or water weight anyways lol. I stopped eating dairy less than six months ago and have lost 15% of my body weight, without changing anything else about my diet or lifestyle. Does that mean you won't pair me to any of the hot mom's with tattoos and piercings like you did last year, uncle skippy?!?!


Postulation from anecdata (that is, I'm not being very scientific about this, just putting together stuff I've heard): could the 1500 grams rule have come from people wanting to breed their females early?  I see a lot of threads about "power feeding" and trying to get females up to "breeding size" within one or two years instead of waiting the full three.  From what I've gathered reading stories from breeders that have been in the hobby for a while, putting the females in too young tends to ruin the clutch anyway.  They tend to slug out, and you just wasted your time and energy on a long shot project.  I don't think I've seen anything relating to the long term health of the animal, but I wouldn't be surprised if it affected that as well

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## Skiploder

> I stopped eating dairy less than six months ago and have lost 15% of my body weight, without changing anything else about my diet or lifestyle. Does that mean you won't pair me to any of the hot mom's with tattoos and piercings like you did last year, uncle skippy?!?!



As for the hot moms with the tatts and piercings - my sister did get divorced and met a new guy.  She comes with the baggage of four kids.  Two of the kids are pretty normal, but three of the four do have bed wetting issues well past the age of 8.  I think a few of them are medicated...for an alphabet soup of issues.  Good news is that all of those are genetic defects that came from her ex-husband's side of the family.  Oh, and I think two have some serious speech impediments...but she is related to me, which means that if you can run her down before menopause hits and your genes are fairly tight, she'll probably bear you a couple of healthy brats.

So sadly, you missed the boat.  There's a pretty good looking Korean chick where I work...I've caught her staring pretty hard at me a few times but she has strabismus so she may be looking at the wall behind me for all I know.  She's in her late 30s, but if you send me a pick maybe we can set your new skinnier self up.

I'll need a couple of full body shots.  Go ahead and post them up here.  After I plaster them all over Grindr I'll see if my co-worker is interested.

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## Mike41793

> As for the hot moms with the tatts and piercings - my sister did get divorced and met a new guy.  She comes with the baggage of four kids.  Two of the kids are pretty normal, but three of the four do have bed wetting issues well past the age of 8.  I think a few of them are medicated...for an alphabet soup of issues.  Good news is that all of those are genetic defects that came from her ex-husband's side of the family.  Oh, and I think two have some serious speech impediments...but she is related to me, which means that if you can run her down before menopause hits and your genes are fairly tight, she'll probably bear you a couple of healthy brats.
> 
> So sadly, you missed the boat.  There's a pretty good looking Korean chick where I work...I've caught her staring pretty hard at me a few times but she has strabismus so she may be looking at the wall behind me for all I know.  She's in her late 30s, but if you send me a pick maybe we can set your new skinnier self up.
> 
> I'll need a couple of full body shots.  Go ahead and post them up here.  After I plaster them all over Grindr I'll see if my co-worker is interested.


I can't post pics here, I'm too shy and self conscious. Come do a photoshoot with me. It's feeding day for the snakes. Fourth one this week!  :Smile:

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## Sonny1318

I can not sincerely express my gratitude for this post/thread. Thank you skiploder.

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## Kaorte

Interesting topic and something I also wondered. I never was able to feed my adults weekly as they just wouldn't be hungry that often. 

Do you think there might be any link between fasting ball pythons and being overfed?

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## Alicia

> Interesting topic and something I also wondered. I never was able to feed my adults weekly as they just wouldn't be hungry that often. 
> 
> Do you think there might be any link between fasting ball pythons and being overfed?



I don't know, but I've heard tell of a link between overfeeding and putting on too much fat, and fasting. I've also heard tell of a link between a female being too fatty and being more likely to throw slugs or fail to eggs at all. 

Just from my own observation again, but I've never been able to consistently feed adult BPs rats 10 - 15% of their body weight. They would take one or two, usually just one, over a couple weeks and then stop eating. My only exception to that at this point is a rather large male. So I, too, feed smalls (like, 35-45 gram smalls) to all the ball pythons a year and over, offered once a week unless the snake is in shed or some other snaky life event is going on. (For instance, I didn't offer any food to Dahlia while she was brooding her eggs.)

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## Kaorte

> I don't know, but I've heard tell of a link between overfeeding and putting on too much fat, and fasting. I've also heard tell of a link between a female being too fatty and being more likely to throw slugs or fail to eggs at all. 
> 
> Just from my own observation again, but I've never been able to consistently feed adult BPs rats 10 - 15% of their body weight. They would take one or two, usually just one, over a couple weeks and then stop eating. My only exception to that at this point is a rather large male. So I, too, feed smalls (like, 35-45 gram smalls) to all the ball pythons a year and over, offered once a week unless the snake is in shed or some other snaky life event is going on. (For instance, I didn't offer any food to Dahlia while she was brooding her eggs.)


I think its highly likely. They have so much fat built up that they are just like "dude, I'm cool for a bit". I've had a BP go off feed for over 8 months. She lost a little weight, but nothing noteworthy.  One day she just felt like eating again.

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_Alicia_ (01-08-2015)

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## Skiploder

> Interesting topic and something I also wondered. I never was able to feed my adults weekly as they just wouldn't be hungry that often. 
> 
> Do you think there might be any link between fasting ball pythons and being overfed?


How long does it take a ball python to digest an "appropriately" size meal?

What does that length tell us about the metabolism of a ball python?  What does the speed of metabolism tell us about their dietary requirements?

If a psammophylax acutus - a fairly active African colubrid - digests a meal in under 48 hours and a ball python which is fairly inactive takes 10 to 14 days, what logical conclusion could we draw from that?

----------


## Kaorte

> How long does it take a ball python to digest an "appropriately" size meal?
> 
> What does that length tell us about the metabolism of a ball python?  What does the speed of metabolism tell us about their dietary requirements?
> 
> If a psammophylax acutus - a fairly active African colubrid - digests a meal in under 48 hours and a ball python which is fairly inactive takes 10 to 14 days, what logical conclusion could we draw from that?


That they really don't NEED to eat every 7 days! ~gasp~ 

 :Good Job: 

I remember a guy at NARBC giving a talk about his feeding habits and it went a little something like this... "when I remember" LOL

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_Mike41793_ (01-09-2015)

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## Skiploder

Aerobic and Anaerobic Metabolism During Activity in Snakes - John A. Ruben - Journal of Comparative Physiology 1976

Bottom Line:  energy production correlates directly and irrefutably with their activity modes.

For example, are they active or passive hunters?  Do they den or roam?  In other words, the more activity they require to successfully survive, the more energy they need...

...and the faster they burn (metabolize) that energy.

A coachwhip needs more food than a rosy boa.  

So if:

1.  We always hear the 10% to 15% rule thrown out there.
2.  Studies were done decades ago that illustrate that metabolism is linked with energy requirements which are linked to activity.
3.  The speed of that metabolism correlates to same.
4.  The studies have been done on enough snake species to draw some intelligent conclusions.
5.  Studies have been done on enough snake species to have an intelligent discussion.
6.  Overfeeding is enough of an issue that vets note it as do many keepers.

Why do we not come up with a new guideline to advise new keepers?

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_Alicia_ (01-08-2015),michaelt (01-11-2015),_sorraia_ (01-08-2015)

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## bcr229

I thought the 10-15% rule was for babies/juveniles up to 500 grams, and then offering a small rat weekly after that was sufficient for males, while a building female could take a medium rat weekly and look for more, but otherwise a small was fine.


As a sidebar to the input side of the digestion equation, has anyone else noted that just prior to ending a months-long fast that their BP's go poop?

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PitOnTheProwl (01-08-2015)

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## Kaorte

> Why do we not come up with a new guideline to advise new keepers?


I dunno! Lets do it. 

I would assume we would have to address the feeding amount for hatchlings, juveniles, and once they are mature, adult females and males  all separately. 

Hatchlings
Juveniles 
Adult Males
Adult Females

What would you consider an approximate gram weight to be for each of these groups? I assume the line between Juvies and Adults to be blurry between males and females since males are generally 'mature' at a smaller size. 

Once that is figured out, we could approximate a a gram amount (or percentage) of rodent that the animal needs based on their activity levels. 


This is an important topic. I haven't used the 10-15% rule in many years because I just eyeball it or feed whatever is on hand. I know I have seen many obese ball pythons. You can't just feed them every time they are hungry. Its like giving a kid as much food as they want and being confused when they get fat. I even saw one posted on the forum today, and the keeper was proud of their size.  :Sad:  People will overfeed hoping to breed them sooner, but all that ends up happening is they slug out.

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*bcr229* (01-09-2015)

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## Eric Alan

> As a sidebar to the input side of the digestion equation, has anyone else noted that just prior to ending a months-long fast that their BP's go poop?


I have one girl that's going to be absolutely _starving_ come feeding day following her 2+ month fast and massive BM this week. How does something poop so much when they haven't eaten in so long? Metabolism is a funny thing...

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## Skiploder

> I have one girl that's going to be absolutely _starving_ come feeding day following her 2+ month fast and massive BM this week. How does something poop so much when they haven't eaten in so long? Metabolism is a funny thing...


Eric, studies have been done on pythons with regards to seasonal changes in body temperature, which affect many biological functions - most noteworthy - digestion.

These studies proved that elevated temperature was associated with a faster and larger metabolic increase after ingestion.  They also showed that the time required to return to fasting levels was measurably longer at lower temperatures. 

The term specific dynamic action (SDA) is used to describe the increase in metabolism following food ingestion.  This specific study showed that the integrated SDA response was not affected by temperature.   The conclusion was drawn that specific snake species choose to raise their body temperatures during digestion to reduce the overall time required for digestion.

What does this gibberish mean?

Higher temps mean faster digestion.  The studies species of python did not, however, need elevated temperatures to digest.  Which may be the sane answer to the oft asked question "Why is my snake on the cold side after eating?"

Snakes who were held at lower temperatures digested their food more slowly and needed to eat less (returned to fasting levels - which indicates CO2 Uptake and oxygen levels measured prior to feeding).

Bottom line, the longer the snake takes to digest there food, the less they need to eat.

Which leads me to my next question.  Ball pythons do not bask.  They are nocturnal and den during the day, specifically seeking burrows within a specific temperature range.  The question therefore is:

Why provide a basking (hot spot)?

Several successful keepers do not do it, digestion of food is not dependent on it and they do not do it in the wild.

Also, how many new keepers incorrectly use uncontrolled heat sources and injure or kill their animals while trying to provide a husbandry parameter that this particular species does not need.

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## Skiploder

From_ Meal size effects on the postprandial metabolic response of Bothrops alternatus (Serpentes: Viperidae)
Rodrigo S. B. Gavira1,2 & Denis V. Andrade1_

"As the cost of meal digestion varied proportionally with the energy content of the meal, the relative cost of meal digestion (i.e., SDA coefficient) was not affected by meal size. Thus, the ingestion of a large or small prey accounted for the same relative energetic investment.

However, in absolute terms, *larger prey still provides an energetic return substantially greater than smaller prey*. In fact, whereas the difference in the absolute cost of digestion between G20% compared with G5% represents an additional investment of only 95 kJ.kg- 1, the absolute energy return obtained from a 20% prey is 1,257 kJ.kg-1 greater than that provided by the ingestion of a 5% prey (see Table I). *Therefore, for a sit-and-wait snake species, the acquisition of a single large meal may still result in important energetic advantage compared to a small meal item, even if they have the same relative cost. Furthermore, the successful capture of a large prey item may result in important ecological advantages related to survival, growth, and allocation of time and energy to different activities (GREENE 1983).*

Again, food for thought.  Sit and wait snake species (female ball pythons) benefit from larger infrequent meals.

More active species, conversely do better with smaller more frequent meals.

One rule does not hold reign.  What works for a female ball python may not work as well for a younger male ball python and certainly does not work for a cribo or other active hunter.

----------


## AlexisFitzy

> I dunno! Lets do it. 
> 
> I would assume we would have to address the feeding amount for hatchlings, juveniles, and once they are mature, adult females and males  all separately. 
> 
> Hatchlings
> Juveniles 
> Adult Males
> Adult Females
> 
> ...


I would like to know the answer to this first before we move on to the next subject of hot spots being futile or not.

----------


## AlexisFitzy

Shoot I tried to edit my post but I took to long, I just read your most resent post Skip. I think all of this information is really interesting but still a little confusing when it comes to making new dietary requirements that would incorporate all of the things mentioned in this thread. Hopefully I'm not the only one that is asking themselves "Now how much should I feed my ball pythons exactly to keep them healthy?"

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## Skiploder

> I would like to know the answer to this first before we move on to the next subject of hot spots being futile or not.


The hot spot has to be figured in.  No hot spot = lower digestion, slower return to needing to be fed again.  :Wink: 

We can't answer questions without making an informed decision.  

For the record, I would not call hot spots futile.  I would call them not necessary and completely optional.

Keep this in mind:  the ball python laying in wait does not weigh it's food.  It eats when hungry and it attempts to predate on animals it feels it can ingest and flees from those it can't.  One month it may eat a meal 20% of it's weight and it then doesn't eat for 7 weeks when it then takes something that's 10% of it's weight.

The idea here is to disabuse people of the notion that an inactive captive snake needs a 15% of its mass prey item every week.  The idea here is to get people thinking about what they need, when to give it to them and how to optimize husbandry around that energy requirement.

I can make an educated stab at Steffe's question, but I can't answer it with any surety.

What I would need is a study that shows what different ball pythons at different ages consume in the wild and the energy expended per year and the energy consumed per year.  Only then could I attempt to ascribe an absolute educated answer to the question.  

Alexis, there is a lot of data here.  Read it, think about it and tell me only two things:

1.  What and how would you feed a female ball python (adult) in a tub?
2.  What and how would you feed a male ball python (adult) in a tub?

Then answer why.  :Smile:

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_AlexisFitzy_ (01-09-2015)

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## Skiploder

> Shoot I tried to edit my post but I took to long, I just read your most resent post Skip. I think all of this information is really interesting but still a little confusing when it comes to making new dietary requirements that would incorporate all of the things mentioned in this thread. Hopefully I'm not the only one that is asking themselves "Now how much should I feed my ball pythons exactly to keep them healthy?"


How much and how often?

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_AlexisFitzy_ (01-09-2015)

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## Eric Alan

> Eric, studies have been done on pythons with regards to seasonal changes in body temperature, which affect many biological functions - most noteworthy - digestion.
> 
> _Lots of information/gibberish..._
> 
> Bottom line, the longer the snake takes to digest there food, the less they need to eat.


Of course this all makes sense. In a world where common sense is closer to an oxymoron than a standard, I was under the impression that much of this was pretty straightforward information. To be honest, I'd have been surprised if the studies had found otherwise.




> Which leads me to my next question.  Ball pythons do not bask.  They are nocturnal and den during the day, specifically seeking burrows within a specific temperature range.  The question therefore is:
> 
> Why provide a basking (hot spot)?


Personally, I have never really thought of a "basking spot" in that way. I try to create/control in my captive environment a temperature range that is similar to the range found in their natural habitat (which is thankfully relatively narrow and fairly easy to replicate). Doing so, in my estimation, allows them to choose a resting spot that best fits their needs at the time. As long as the range I provide is consistent, I don't worry what side of the enclosure they may be on. They know their environmental temperature requirements at any given moment far better than I.

On a similar note, I understand that some keepers are very successful not providing that gradient and choose to maintain a more consistent ambient temperature. I, however, feel that if I did that, I may not be meeting the needs of each individual snake in my collection. Is this feeling based on any evidence? I don't know. Does it make sense to me, though, that some snakes would prefer slightly warmer or slightly cooler temperatures than other snakes to be the most comfortable they could be? Absolutely. This is why I give them the ability to choose and provide a "basking spot" in my racks.

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## Jhill001

> Alexis, there is a lot of data here.  Read it, think about it and tell me only two things:
> 
> 1.  What and how would you feed a female ball python (adult) in a tub?
> 2.  What and how would you feed a male ball python (adult) in a tub?
> 
> Then answer why.



Side question, does a snakes activity level (active species or inactive) increase or decrease when placed into a larger than "recommended" enclosure. For example an adult male ball python gets kept in a 75 gallon decorated tank with stuff to crawl on, now let's do that with a Rosy Boa, a bull snake, a corn and a milk snake, any other 20-40gallon recommended species. Do they take advantage of the room, if so does this affect feeding needs/other husbandry things. If not, then why don't they take advantage of the space"? 

Does getting your snake out to handle them increase metabolism? One would have to assume. Has anyone ever tried putting an unwilling feeder on an exercise program by taking them out and getting them moving? Literally just brain storming here. Does anyone have an exercise program for any of there herps in the interest of preventing obesity? I know of some people who give beardies a shallow bath to help with sheds, does this double as extra exercise/stimulation that can help improve husbandry?

I'm out of Doritos so I don't have the energy to talk about exercise anymore.

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## Skiploder

> Of course this all makes sense. In a world where common sense is closer to an oxymoron than a standard, I was under the impression that much of this was pretty straightforward information. To be honest, I'd have been surprised if the studies had found


If it's so straightforward, then why are people over feeding their snakes?  We've been dancing for five pages and no one drew that simple conclusion.  Sometimes common sense and common practice are not the same.

Drymarchon bask, but many people who keep them don't provide them with basking spots.  
Ball pythons don't normally bask, but many people who keep them provide them with basking spots.

We advise giving a ball python three thermoregulation zones in captivity, but in reality they by and large choose one site in the wild that changes slightly as the day progresses....then they emerge to cooler temps at night.

Ever thought that since temps and digestion go hand in hand that we are stimulating them to consume more by providing them 92 degree hot spots to lay on?

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Kaorte (01-09-2015),_Sonny1318_ (02-18-2017)

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## Skiploder

> Side question, does a snakes activity level (active species or inactive) increase or decrease when placed into a larger than "recommended" enclosure. For example an adult male ball python gets kept in a 75 gallon decorated tank with stuff to crawl on, now let's do that with a Rosy Boa, a bull snake, a corn and a milk snake, any other 20-40gallon recommended species. Do they take advantage of the room, if so does this affect feeding needs/other husbandry things. If not, then why don't they take advantage of the space"? 
> 
> Does getting your snake out to handle them increase metabolism? One would have to assume. Has anyone ever tried putting an unwilling feeder on an exercise program by taking them out and getting them moving? Literally just brain storming here. Does anyone have an exercise program for any of there herps in the interest of preventing obesity? I know of some people who give beardies a shallow bath to help with sheds, does this double as extra exercise/stimulation that can help improve husbandry?
> 
> I'm out of Doritos so I don't have the energy to talk about exercise anymore.


Totally dependent on species.

The natural history of a male ball pythons tells use that if given ample room and a suitable den it will den during the day and then roam at night to hunt, climb trees, seek out female ball pythons, etc.  The area it has to cover to fulfill those imperatives is much greater in the wild than in a tank and better in a a tank than a tub.  

Any activity increases the expenditure of energy and fuel is burned (metabolism) to meet that expenditure.  Considering how affected these animals are by stress, I would suggest feeding less in favor of exercising them in some way.

I keep dispholidines in large arboreal cages and they are constantly moving.  While they need to cover larger distances in the wild to find food and shelter, it certainly is better than stuffing them in a tub.  Same for drys.  Giver them the room and they will use it.  They will use a nest or a burrow, they will bask for periods during the day and they will move around in their cages.  Difference is that restlessness is an indicator of stress in ball but not in some select other species.

We have inexorably tied successful feeding into being a good keeper.  We feel bad when a snake refuses food.  In many cases we overfeed them not only because we don't really know their caloric needs, but also because when they eat, we feel some measure of accomplishment.

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_HVani_ (01-09-2015)

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## Kaorte

I've always told people to not stress out when their snake stopes eating. Its not as if they'll starve themselves. 

In my opinion, a ball python won't take advantage of a large tank like some other species will. Once it finds a comfy spot it stays there. 

1. What and how would you feed a female ball python in a tub. 

Hot spot of 90. Small rat 35-50g every 2 weeks. 42 qt tub. 1500g+ snake.

2. What and how would you feed a male ball python in a tub. 

Hot spot of 90. Small rat 30-40g every two weeks. 32/42qt tub. 1000g snake. 
This isn't exactly what I do every time, but its a jumping off point I guess.

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_Sonny1318_ (02-18-2017)

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## Eric Alan

> Ever thought that since temps and digestion go hand in hand that we are stimulating them to consume more by providing them 92 degree hot spots to lay on?


Sure I have - every time I look at an annual climate map of their home area. You mostly see average highs in the low-upper 80s and average lows in the mid-upper 70s depending on the time of year.

In a perfect world, would it be cool to have a thermostat and heat source that could replicate these daily temperature fluctuations? Of course. Would that be better for their long-term health than providing them with a consistent temperature gradient that captured this range on a daily basis? I'm not sure.

In recent time, I've become quite a bit less concerned with skipped meals from the standpoint of "because they ate, I am doing things right". These days a skipped meal upsets me more from the standpoint of "I should have known better" because I'm trying to become more observant of individual snake's feeding habits. Also, because I feed mostly frozen/thawed rats, a missed meal = money wasted. I've actually changed my feeding schedule (split into two days vs one), and in-tune feeding amount (there are no longer "leftovers" to feed to snakes who already ate on that day), to reflect this mindset.

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## Skiploder

So, my set up is unique in that I have a separate building for my reptiles.  I also do not keep anything but varanids, heloderms, and colubrids these days.  I sold off my boids years ago.  Our tortoises are kept outside in pens.

The building is kept at roughly 73 to 75 degrees during the day.  Everything I have basks, so they are given basking sites of some sort.  The front of the building is about 35% window, so temps increase slightly during the day.  During the summer I let temps drop uncontrolled at night and during the winter I control the drop.

Now, if I were to use the same building for ball pythons, I would experiment around to find an ambient temperature in the building that lowers to about 77 degrees at night and allows for a range of about 82 to 88 in the enclosures depending on the time of the day.  

I would also not provide a hot spot, but a slightly - very slightly - warmer basking spot during the first few hours of the night to stimulate the elective behavior of finding some residual heat after the sun goes down.

I think that once dialed in, I could provide a natural cycle.

Anyway, enough of the circular talk.  Bottom line is I think as a group, captive snakes are overfed because people don't bother to take the time to do any research on them.  We take someone's word instead of perusing studies and literature on the subject.  Eric, some of these studies are almost 40 years old...the information is out there, we just choose to ignore it.

The problem with that if you make a list of everyone on this forum today...you will find that in 4 years many of them are gone.  Some go away because they don't enjoy the interaction, some because they eventually see no point in it, but a lot go away simply because people do not tend to stay with this hobby that long.

One of the reasons I stopped breeding reptiles is because I always included a right of first refusal agreement with my sales.  I haven't gone back to crunch the numbers but I would guess that more than half of the animals were returned to me.  The number one reason? Eventual disinterest.

In other words, a lot of the advice that is given out is by people who don't spend a lot of time in the hobby and who are just repeating what someone else who hasn't spent a lot of time in the hobby told them.

On another thread, a member talked about how her ball python died of fatty liver disease and how the vet observed how overfed these animals are.  There's a good reason for this...it's a lifestyle disease that we force on these animals.  

I would argue there is no one "right way" to feed your ball python.  Ball pythons themselves in the wild follow their own caloric fulfillment habits based on their individual activities.  I do feel that there is a "wrong way" and that is following a blanket pattern without questioning it.

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_GoingPostal_ (01-24-2015),_Sonny1318_ (02-18-2017)

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## Kaorte

I agree that many people advise feeding their snakes way more than what they actually need. I also agree that the strictness of the basking temps are not really as necessary as people make them seem. It is not as if your snake is going to die if its left at room temp for a few hours, or the hot spot isn't precisely 92.1459 or whatever people are getting told these days. 

So what simple advice can we give new comers so they don't fall into the same habits? I usually recommend feeding hatchlings weekly until they get some size on them. Once they are nice and plump I don't think they need to continue eating on a 7 day schedule. 

I think we still need to have some consistent recommendations for people new to the hobby so its easy for them to understand. A newbie isn't going to come to this thread and have any idea what to feed their snake from then on out. Heck even I don't know! lol

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_AlexisFitzy_ (01-09-2015)

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## Mike41793

I kept my balls in glass tanks for years in my room without any issues. My room temps averaged mid to upper 70s year round, definitely a bit warmer in the summer. I fed my snakes once a month or every other month even sometimes. I never had a single issue. I had heat lamps. For the week after I fed them, I would run that for them for a few hours every nite after dinner. That's all they got and I had three of them. They didn't die. They were as healthy as all of mine now that I keep in a rack. Lol

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_Sonny1318_ (02-18-2017)

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## Mike41793

Temp drops don't kill them either. I've had balls get into the upper 60s at nite for years and they never had any health issues either. They still had their hotspots at 86/87.

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_200xth_ (01-12-2015),_AlexisFitzy_ (01-12-2015)

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## Mike41793

They're different than balls, totally different continent, but I read in a Carpet Python book that there's a population of carpets at an upper elevation somewhere in Australia where nite temps can drop as low as 36°F and the snakes do just fine. 

If people are brainwashed to think that their snake needs to eat every week then when it doesn't, they get all worried. If the standards were updated to be more accurate, and balls only needed to be fed every 4-6 weeks, then people wouldn't be losing their minds when the snake doesn't eat. Lol

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## 200xth

> Temp drops don't kill them either. I've had balls get into the upper 60s at nite for years and they never had any health issues either. They still had their hotspots at 86/87.


Same.  My hotspots are 87 or 88.  I've had night temperature drops into the low 70s frequently, and a occasionally into the 60's.  My average ambient temperature is only around 75 in the house, including the room the snakes are in.

They all keep going with no issues.

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## 200xth

> In recent time, I've become quite a bit less concerned with skipped meals from the standpoint of "because they ate, I am doing things right".


It used to annoy me when mine wouldn't eat.  Some of them ate every single week, but some would eat 3 weeks in a row, take 2 weeks off, eat once, then two more weeks off, etc.  It was frustrating me a bit.

Then I realized I was trying to force some of them to do something I wanted them to do, not something they needed or wanted.

So the ones who ate less consistently started getting fed less regularly.  Once every two weeks.  It took up to a month for them to get with the program, but once they got on track they started eating more consistently, just less often.  Their health is fine, their growth is fine, and we're all happier.

I also feed smaller.  Nothing gets larger than a 60g rat, most of the time they are in the 40g to 50g range.  Once in a while if someone doesn't eat, one of the hungrier girls will pick up a second meal, but even then the total food for a meal never surpasses 100g (and that is only a couple of times a year).

I even started feeding multiple types of prey.  Rats, mice, and chicks.  Only a few of mine will eat all three so they get the most variety, but all of the others (except 1) will eat at least two types of food (rats & mice, rats & chicks, or chicks & mice), so they all get some variety.  No idea if it actually improved anything for them, but they eat a varied diet in the wild, so they'll get it here while they're with me.

I never worry about skipped meals anymore.  If they skip a few times, I start looking at changing their schedule, but otherwise the meal goes to a garbage collector, and the snake stays on it's schedule next time around.

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_Alicia_ (01-12-2015),*bcr229* (01-12-2015),_HVani_ (01-12-2015)

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## Samong

I would also like to know where this idea of "fattening up" a female for breeding season comes from; I would think the key goal would just be good body condition and not breeding too often. I'd like to see how much fat a breeding wild female has vs domestic. This thread does make me feel better about the fact I feed my female (9 years and the only one out of growing) on a 3 to 5 week schedule, with a break from food for 2-3 months each winter. And she's gained weight over the years even though I'm not breeding her or feeding her to breed her.

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## Lizardlicks

> I would also like to know where this idea of "fattening up" a female for breeding season comes from; I would think the key goal would just be good body condition and not breeding too often. I'd like to see how much fat a breeding wild female has vs domestic. This thread does make me feel better about the fact I feed my female (9 years and the only one out of growing) on a 3 to 5 week schedule, with a break from food for 2-3 months each winter. And she's gained weight over the years even though I'm not breeding her or feeding her to breed her.


I think the origin on this comes from a psychological stand point rather than an actual physical need, but the reason why big breeders do it gets left out or abridged, so small time breeders only get passed on "you need to fatten that female up!" as advice.  Watched Brian Barczyk's recent youtube vid on breeding advice, and it would seem the reasoning is less "fatten them up" and more "make a readily available food supply to stimulate follicle growth and breeding desire."  The logic here being that females, either by instinct, some bodily reaction, or other unknown factor will translate "good food supply" into "lots of resources available for my offspring, making this a good time to reproduce."

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## Eric Alan

> So, my set up is unique in that I have a separate building for my reptiles.  I also do not keep anything but varanids, heloderms, and colubrids these days.  I sold off my boids years ago.  Our tortoises are kept outside in pens.
> 
> The building is kept at roughly 73 to 75 degrees during the day.  Everything I have basks, so they are given basking sites of some sort.  The front of the building is about 35% window, so temps increase slightly during the day.  During the summer I let temps drop uncontrolled at night and during the winter I control the drop.
> 
> Now, if I were to use the same building for ball pythons, I would experiment around to find an ambient temperature in the building that lowers to about 77 degrees at night and allows for a range of about 82 to 88 in the enclosures depending on the time of the day.  
> 
> I would also not provide a hot spot, but a slightly - very slightly - warmer basking spot during the first few hours of the night to stimulate the elective behavior of finding some residual heat after the sun goes down.
> 
> I think that once dialed in, I could provide a natural cycle.


The inner perfectionist in me just found a proportional thermostat available that can make daily/monthly adjustments to lighting/humidity/temperature based upon preset climate zones (that are fully customizable). In my own perfect little world, I would love to have that kind of flexibility. Perhaps some day...

----------


## rlditmars

> Some food for thought - especially with regards to differing diets of male and female balls pythons:
> 
> _Concerning the python diet, Luiselli and Angelci (1998) demonstrated that, although rodents were the main prey type for both sexes, the males differed from the females because they fed significantly more often on arboreal prey (birds), whereas the female diet was based nearly exclusively on terrestrial rodents.  The authors hypothesized that these differences were attributable to a higher use of the arboreal niche by males, as also suggested by some incidental observations of males climbed on low tree branches.
> _
> 
> So males are more apt to climb and also have adapted to actively hunt and make use of less calorically dense prey types.
> 
> There are further studies that confirm this fact (increase arboreality of males vs. females/more varied diet) that were incidental to studies on why female and male ball pythons carry differing external parasite loads.
> 
> ...


Skiploder,
You have offered up some great information and some thought provoking questions. I'd like to make a few comments starting with the information above. While this shows that some males will seek arboreal food more often then females, it doesn't offer a reason as to why. Could it be the larger body size of the female makes it less suitable to climbing? Could it be that the male choosing to feed on higher elevated prey leaves more food readily available to the ground constrained females, and much like warblers stratifying in the jack pines, it doesn't depleat the source? It wouldn't seem that the different genders would have different dietary requirements as far as the chemical composition of the food item, so there must be another reason. What ever the reason, it is interesting. 

With regard to the 10% to 15% feeder amount, I have always looked at that as a not to exceed number with hatchlings, and have pretty much ignored it all together with regard to larger snakes. On the larger snakes I have just used the snake body diameter > or = prey diameter formula. Regarding frequency I have fed my hatchlings for sale just once a week and have only used the shortened 5 day schedule on those subjects that I was trying to move along a little quicker for my own  breeding plans. None of the adults are fed more  than once a week unless I have a refusal and it's a matter of either pitching the food item or offering a second to one of the others. But in those rare instances I tend to skip the following week for those animals that take the second item. I only use smalls or mediums for adult snakes. Neither smalls for the males or mediums for the females ever come close to the 15% mark once the animal is about 2 years old. Besides, a 2000 gram female would have a lot of trouble taking down a 300 gram rat, not to mention a 3500 or 4000 gram female. 

As far as basking temps and such, I think that you are correct in that a lot of information gets passed along as fact but mainly because it has been reurgitated so often it is believed to be true, like an urban legend. However, I think we all can agree that we should at least try to create an environement that would provide some of the same consistancy of temperature as they would encounter in the wild. Anyone living north of the Mason dixon Line would certainly have trouble with that just using the ambients of their house since most of us like it around 70 or lower depending on your age, gender, or economic situation. So we provide a heat source whether UTH or Basking. And with the heat source is the necessity for regulation since most sources left uncontrolled can injure or worse. I agree that the actual range needed is probably far more wide ranging and forgiving then what gets stressed around here, but again it's easier to say a number than a range when someone is asking what to set the thermostat to. Also, if you tell people there is a wide range they may just think that regulating it is unnecessary which could have dire consequences. So we err on the side of caution. Regarding the natural temps, is there good data regarding the internal temps of the burrows during the daytime hours and the ground temperatures during the night? We can't just go by the average air temps since neither the day or night temps are what the animal is actually in contact with. When they are in the burrow during the day, it is precisely to avoid the daytime air temperatures. Also, if they are wholed up in a termite mound and not too deep in, they could be experiencing a drastically different temp then a snake in a burrow three feet below the ground surface. Same thing at night, since the entire bottom surface of the snake is often in contact with the ground, if the sun has heated that surface up drastically during the day and the evening hasn't allowed for too much radiant loss, the snake may be warmer than the air temp. How many snakes die on the road at night utilizing the surface temps of the asphalt? 

All in all I believe your arguments valid, but if we are to change things then we need some good solid data. Also, it should be presented in a way that easily digestible to the layperson since they are going to most commonly be the ones asking. How do you suggest we proceed?

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_Crowfingers_ (10-05-2015)

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## MrLang

Love it. You da man, Skip.

I have a lot I could say on this but it could be summarized to 2 key points:
1) Learn the needs and behaviors of your animals and you'll never need to read a care sheet again
2)

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_Alicia_ (01-12-2015),_Eric Alan_ (01-12-2015),_Mike41793_ (01-12-2015)

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## Paul's Pieds

This is the most fascinating thread I have read since discovering this forum. I have returned to BP keeping following a lengthy absence and my circumstances are much different.

Previously I had many dozens of BPs plus other snakes and lizards. I bred my own feed animals and fed on schedule with whatever I had that was, from observation, the 'correct' girth. As we were breeding we always had every size available.

Now that I have a much smaller collection and no personally bred feed animals it takes more planning about what to purchase and store..but.. the smaller number of animals has made feeding more tailored to animal need. I no longer have a feeding day. In the evening if the snake is active I make a point of watching it the next evening also. Any snake that appears to be hunting 2 nights in a row is offered a meal. Snakes that do not 'hunt' do not get offered but they do get checked and weighed just in case something is wrong (which it never has been)

My one exception to this has been small snakes which I worried about more since I feel the need to ensure they are getting a good start in life. They get offered regardless but now I have to rethink that also. I purchased a small BP on 12/12/14 and he took 2 rat pinkies the first week and another 2 the second, matching the every 3-5 days schedule. The last 2 weeks he hasn't eaten. On my last offering he struck the offered item hard enough to knock it out of the tub without any attempt to wrap it. I wouldn't worry about an adult not eating for 2 weeks but as he is a baby i checked on him. Well guess what? he knows what he is doing. I weighed him and in the month i had him he has gone from 110 grams to 160 grams, so I am sure he isn't hungry and would prefer not to be bothered.

I think skip has raised some interesting points and i think this has been a good exercise in examining our own behaviour rather than the snakes.

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## Skiploder

> Skiploder,
> You have offered up some great information and some thought provoking questions. I'd like to make a few comments starting with the information above. While this shows that some males will seek arboreal food more often then females, it doesn't offer a reason as to why. Could it be the larger body size of the female makes it less suitable to climbing? Could it be that the male choosing to feed on higher elevated prey leaves more food readily available to the ground constrained females, and much like warblers stratifying in the jack pines, it doesn't depleat the source? It wouldn't seem that the different genders would have different dietary requirements as far as the chemical composition of the food item, so there must be another reason. What ever the reason, it is interesting.


Don't know.  I've thought about body size playing a role...the possibility that they roam more than females in general and ambush less has predisposed them to be more active hunters...




> As far as basking temps and such, I think that you are correct in that a lot of information gets passed along as fact but mainly because it has been reurgitated so often it is believed to be true, like an urban legend. However, I think we all can agree that we should at least try to create an environement that would provide some of the same consistancy of temperature as they would encounter in the wild. Anyone living north of the Mason dixon Line would certainly have trouble with that just using the ambients of their house since most of us like it around 70 or lower depending on your age, gender, or economic situation. So we provide a heat source whether UTH or Basking. And with the heat source is the necessity for regulation since most sources left uncontrolled can injure or worse. I agree that the actual range needed is probably far more wide ranging and forgiving then what gets stressed around here, but again it's easier to say a number than a range when someone is asking what to set the thermostat to. Also, if you tell people there is a wide range they may just think that regulating it is unnecessary which could have dire consequences. So we err on the side of caution. Regarding the natural temps, is there good data regarding the internal temps of the burrows during the daytime hours and the ground temperatures during the night? We can't just go by the average air temps since neither the day or night temps are what the animal is actually in contact with. When they are in the burrow during the day, it is precisely to avoid the daytime air temperatures. Also, if they are wholed up in a termite mound and not too deep in, they could be experiencing a drastically different temp then a snake in a burrow three feet below the ground surface. Same thing at night, since the entire bottom surface of the snake is often in contact with the ground, if the sun has heated that surface up drastically during the day and the evening hasn't allowed for too much radiant loss, the snake may be warmer than the air temp. How many snakes die on the road at night utilizing the surface temps of the asphalt? 
> 
> All in all I believe your arguments valid, but if we are to change things then we need some good solid data. Also, it should be presented in a way that easily digestible to the layperson since they are going to most commonly be the ones asking. How do you suggest we proceed?


I don't know.  I really don't.  I think we confuse people new to the hobby with all this talk about thermoregulation zones - hot, cold, ambient.  Maybe it's easier to provide a gently varying ambient during the day, with a residual hot spot situated at the mouth of the hide with a night drop.  the idea is that these animals tend to spend their days in humid microclimates.  If we focus on that one simple trait, instead of three distinct zones ALL the time with a constant humidity of X%, we can simplify things.

Heat your room to 83 or 84 degrees, let it vary slightly with the rise and fall of the day and then let it drop to X at night.  Utilize a UTH as soon as the cooling process begins for two or three hours and that's it.  The microclimate of the den should be humid but not necessarily the whole enclosure.  

Maybe it would be worth our time to design the perfect ball python micro climate hide....?  Soak the hide and it gently releases humidity for an extended period of time, something along those lines.

In the USU Study on Ball Python behavior, the first person to breed these snakes in captivity at the Houston Zoo noted:

_Logan noted that their ball pythons tended to spend more of their time in the
cooler areas of their cage as compared to other pythons and boas at the zoo. Specifically,
Logan states, Ive never seen our regius bask under the warm spotas do other
Boids._

I haven't looked at exact denning temperatures, but I would think that they would be close to the incubation temperatures we advise.  The idea is that - with the exception of night drops - the den IS the incubator.  Ball pythons are maternal brooders and the tightly coiled ministrations of the female keep the temp as constant as possible when the sun goes down.

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_rlditmars_ (01-12-2015)

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## Eric Alan

> I haven't looked at exact denning temperatures, but I would think that they would be close to the incubation temperatures we advise. The idea is that - with the exception of night drops - the den IS the incubator. Ball pythons are maternal brooders and the tightly coiled ministrations of the female keep the temp as constant as possible when the sun goes down.


I found the following piece of information regarding den temperatures. Per Ball Pythons by the Barkers (p 8):
Greer (1994) measured temperature and humidity in three nest sites that were excavated in his presence. The burrows were in unshaded open ground, and the temperature of the ground surface over the burrows varied from 107 degrees to 111 degrees F (42 degrees to 44 degrees C); ambient relative humidity was 66 percent to 68 percent. The measured air temperatures inside the nesting chambers where females were brooding clutches of eggs varied from 92 degrees to 96 degrees F (33 degrees to 35.5 degrees C), and the ambient relative humidity of the air in the dry earthen chambers ranged from 83 percent to 88 percent.
On the surface, this seems to be contrary to their recommendation that "our snakes want to be cool, but they occasionally they warm up" (p 173). It's likely, IMO, that these elevated den temperatures were found because the search groups were specifically seeking nesting sites, in which they'd expect to find gravid females and/or clutches of eggs, and not necessarily regular use burrows. The Barker's do note later on that "gravid ball pythons will usually pick the warmer as the place to lay their eggs" (p 223) when offering gravid females a choice of a warmer vs a cooler part of the cage.

Their temperature recommendations are "ambient temperatures of 78 to 80 degrees F (26 to 27 degrees C) with a basking spot of 86 degrees F (30 degrees C)" (p 170-171). They then clarify this in regards to providing temperature gradients: "Even though the warm area of the cage may be 88 degrees F (31 degrees C) and the cool area 78 degrees F (26 degrees C), the ball python living in the cage can easily and purposely achieve a core body temperature of, say, 84 degrees F (29 degrees C). This the snake accomplishes behaviorally by selectively placing only part of its body in the warm area, and physiologically by deferentially shunting blood flow through the capillary beds in its skin," (p 171).

This follows my earlier thought process that the snakes knows better than I do its needs at any given time, which is why I provide a warm spot in addition to a consistent ambient temperature.

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_Lizardlicks_ (01-12-2015),_rlditmars_ (01-12-2015)

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## John1982

Pretty much everything is going to affect how much of a prey item is utilized making it nearly impossible to come up with a solid, long term guideline based on weight % alone. You've got stress levels, parasite loads, temperature ranges, prey type, prey age(fat content), activity level, etc. In conjunction with whatever numbers we come up with a picture guide showing the range of body types and prey options modeled after their wild diet would be most useful to new keepers. Maybe throw in some pictures under different circumstances covering a yearly cycle.

Example:
These snakes feed primarily on small rodents in the wild with males showing at least a seasonal tendency towards birds.
Followed by pictures or groups of pictures within each category:
1) snake is underweight
2) snake is overweight 
3) snake is of average build
4) fasting male
5) building female
6) pre laying
7) post laying
8) neonate
9) yearling

Then folks who aren't sure can occasionally check the picture guide to see where their snake lies on the spectrum and adjust food intake accordingly. With so many keepers and pictures flooding the net, it's not always easy finding examples of these animals in the wild, let alone enough to get a decent idea of what their average body build should look like, but that's what I always strive for - a healthy, natural median. I'm not modeling my animals after the starving snake on death's door or the animal that just cleaned out a whole colony of rodents.

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_Eric Alan_ (01-13-2015)

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## Eric Alan

> Pretty much everything is going to affect how much of a prey item is utilized making it nearly impossible to come up with a solid, long term guideline based on weight % alone.


I did have the chance to read an article earlier today about almost this exact topic. I don't recall the specifics off the top of my head, but it was regarding digestion rate of various Python species (5 total), and balls were one of them. All 5 species were fed meals equivalent to 25% of their mass and monitored for a period of time. Of the 5 species, the balls were 2nd to last or last in terms of speed of digestion. This likely indicates that they are naturally able to "stretch" meals out for longer periods of time than the other species (or, that they don't require as fast of a metabolism as the other species for one reason or another). 

Now, what this means in terms of coming up with some kind of generic feeding recommemdation, I don't know for sure. It's just more evidence that they don't need as much food as some may think. Personally, I took it as another tool in my toolbox to think about during periods of fasting.

I do like the idea of some sort of pictorial showing healthy ball pythons at various stages of their lives. I mean, really, who's going to say no to more pictures of snakes!  :Smile:

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## Paul's Pieds

I have been thinking about this all day whilst working. I have come to a conclusion that i am sure that some others have reached before me but not said

i think the 10-15% every week myth is the work of those providing animal food items, in order to sell more

and readily believed by those wanting to see rapid progress

we all know the price of animals falls - i once paid £4250 (about $6500) for a lesser pastel - and the sales pitch is that you can be producing whatever you have bought in 2 years if you feed them up enough. So the temptation is to try and breed in 2 years instead of 3 before the price has dropped further. So the seller wins twice, he sells you an animal on the hope you can produce your own quickly and you buy the food items to try and make that happen

have i gone cynical or does anyone else think this may be the source of the feeding every week myth ?

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## Lizardlicks

I'm not so certain it was purposefully perpetuated... but yeah, I'm starting to see a correlation between people trying to beat the market and the aggressive feeding practices that have become standard in the hobby.  With breeding BPs becoming more an more popular, it might be useful to set out to produce separate feeding guidelines between pet keepers, hobby breeders, and full time businesses, as well as enforce the idea that guidelines and generalizations are just that, and that the needs of individual snakes and their health should trump them.

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## CloudtheBoa

This is an extremely interesting thread, and something I've been giving myself some thought on since I was informed that I may have been overfeeding my boa constrictor a bit.  Since then, I've been advocating feeding smaller prey items less often, and my boa constrictor has been on a diet of rabbits that leave no bulge every 4 weeks for about a year now (they weigh roughly 3-8% of his body weight), and I've noticed body tone more similar to what he had when he was a baby and 3ft long.  I have also been fasting him for the winter, withholding food for 3 months and lowering temps, and he should be ready to eat again mid- to late-February.  I'll be raising temps 1-2 weeks before I feed him again to get his metabolism running again, and he'll get a rabbit.  I'm also thinking about ordering some chicks to shake up his diet, feeding a mix of rabbits, chicks, and rats, and I may start him on a 5 week feeding schedule for rats and rabbits, and 3 weeks for the chicks.  The success I've seen feeding my boa constrictor this way has made me think on feeding the ball python similarly, especially since he's much older and no longer growing.

I have also become less worried about if my ball python eats on time, although I still do like when he meets the schedule. lol  Right now, I have him eating 1 jumbo mouse every 2 weeks, and I have noticed an extreme increase in his feeding response.  The mice average 40-50 grams, 70 grams being the largest and 25 grams being the smallest.  Each week I would offer two, but he would only take one, but this last feeding he had an especially strong feeding response, striking the side of his tub a couple times as I walked by.  He actually took two that time, which was 17-18 days ago, and he refused to eat when I offered again, despite just coming out of a shed earlier that day and defecating.  Keep in mind, when I was feeding regular-sized adult mice he had no qualms about eating 5 of them at a time, so I doubt it's a problem with taking multiple prey.  He generally makes use of every inch of space I offer him, exploring and moving/flipping hides for about 1-2 hours at the beginning of the night before settling down and then hiding the rest of the day, unless he just ate or is in shed.  I also noticed an increase in feeding response when I dropped down from feeding mediums weekly to feeding small rats biweekly.  In my experience, his strikes seem to be based off of overfeeding and stress, as his most major strikes coincided with each time I moved residences.  If it weren't for the 8 month strike he went through last year, I would have been fasting him with the boa.  If he continues to eat well, and I may be extending his feeding even further to every 3 weeks, then I will also be fasting him winter of 2015.  I have noticed he is a lot more muscular than most ball pythons I see online, as he regularly explores and doesn't eat every week.

Right now, due to lack of space, he's in a tub with a red light heat lamp (was considering a CHE, but decided it would take a lot more care than just hooking it up to a thermostat to make it safe and opted to stay with the bulb) set so that he has a 90F hot spot.  This is because the room is cold and in order to keep the cool end above 70F he needs a good basking spot, and I don't like using just heat tape since it really only heats the bedding without heating the cold air entering the tub (if I can't get him into his custom enclosure again soon I may use my leftover heat tape and shut off his lamp at night leaving only the heat tape running during the night - I already turn off all heat and light for my garter at night).  While he was in his wooden enclosure, I kept the entire enclosure at 80-85F evenly, and I have noticed no difference in defecation rates or activity levels even though his feeding rate has not changed (I do still prefer offering a gradient, but that's just my opinion).  He seems to defecate every 1-2 months, and leaves urates every other week.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?  I'm not sure if this means I'm underfeeding him as 40-50 grams, and even 70 grams, is a small percentage of the ~1380 grams he weighs, yet he gained weight after he started eating and now his weight is staying pretty steady barring fluctuations from urates and as-of-yet expelled feces.  He may even still be steadily gaining weight, albeit much slower than at first.

I would be interested in seeing the X-rays of ball pythons fed on these aggressive feedings schedules, and ones fed a more conservative diet, if that could show their internal fat deposits for comparison's sake.  I feel seeing the fat deposits in different individuals would be an extremely useful part in seeing the impact various diets have on them, as well as data on wild individuals.  Overall, this thread is very good food for thought.

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_200xth_ (01-16-2015),_HVani_ (01-14-2015)

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## Sonny1318

Sorry, just don't want this thread to get lost. Or it's message.

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## GoingPostal

Interesting topic for sure.  I have an adult male approx 9 years, 2400 grams in a 3 x 2 cage who is a mouser, he gets 1-3 per week, normally two, he fasts several months per year and always been very curious on whether I am feeding the "right" amount.

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## Sonny1318

This thread has to be the most fascinating of almost anything I've read on this site. Thanks again Skiploder. Looking forward to more of your observations.

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## Skiploder

> This thread has to be the most fascinating of almost anything I've read on this site. Thanks again Skiploder. Looking forward to more of your observations.


Not related to ball pythons, but as _clelia_ and_ boiruna_ become more popular, more and more pictures of obese examples of these animals are making their way onto the internet.

These are the two species that make up what is commonly and collectively known as mussurana in the hobby.  These snakes eat a wide variety of prey items...the vast majority of which are other snakes.  They are only nominally opportunistic mammal and bird eaters.  This data has been proven in exhaustive studies.

What is also happening is that many of these animals are dying very young.  While many of the keepers don't bother to have a necropsy performed, those that do are finding out that these snake are dying early of "lifestyle" disease - namely feeding an inappropriate diet.

Using the nutritional information of a rattlesnake and then comparing it to a rat, both prey items have similar protein contents and gross energy profiles.  The difference is that a rat has almost 30% more fat.

Still, despite the evidence, people will continue to overfeed their mussuranas a diet rich in fat and then wonder why the heck they die at an early age.

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*bcr229* (02-23-2015),_CloudtheBoa_ (02-23-2015),_GoingPostal_ (02-25-2017)

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## Sonny1318

And yet I get the feeling that besides the facts and examples you cited. It will continue to be done. I've been keeping different boids now for close to thirty years. And I never have claimed to be an expert. And have learned at the very least what not to do. It sadened me to see some very old advise surface to defend these practices. But not point out some of these sources also recommend things that some keepers on here claim are archaic. And in all sincerity I really appreciate your contributions, and look forward to more in the future.

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## Sonny1318

There was discussion on over feeding / feeding the other day, hope this helps.

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