# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Incubation substrate, what do you use and why?

## saber2th

OK, its getting close to that time where eggs are going to be laid!  :Smile:   And I know lots of first timers are wondering the same thing as I am, so... my question is what substrate do you use to incubate your eggs in and why have you chosen that? If you are using the substrateless method, let us know why!

This Poll and question will not only help me, but lots of first timers. 

Thanks for your help,

Dave

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## RichsBallPythons

Vermiculite is all i use with light diffuser on top. Allows for more water ot be added without having to add more during incubation.

incubator set at 87.5 gives 89.9 top and 89.3 bottom

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_piedplus_ (03-01-2012),_saber2th_ (02-16-2011)

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## JayCee

Substrateless.

Diffuser with 4 feet on it (essentially just a spacer in each corner to lift diffuser out of water so air can work all the way around the eggs) & water, press-n-seal.

I realize it's just a small sample size, but hatched out 25 of 25 eggs last year.  Zero bad eggs.  No mold.

In theory it makes more sense to me than using any substrate.

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_piedplus_ (03-01-2012),_saber2th_ (02-16-2011)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

I use a substrateless methods, fool proof, no worry when it comes to mixing, eggs are not in direct contact with the substrate and can't ever too wet etc.

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_piedplus_ (03-01-2012),_saber2th_ (02-16-2011)

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## 2kdime

Substrateless here as well.

I used straight water last year under the diffuser with 100% hatch rate 

I'll be using the water and Vermiculite mix this year though

Like said above, foolproof

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_Jason Bowden_ (03-21-2012),_piedplus_ (03-01-2012),_saber2th_ (02-16-2011)

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## ScubaDiver007

Hatchrite here.. Pour and stick the eggs in the cooker.. Maybe add a tiny bit of water in the corner toward the end of the cycle..  :Good Job:  :Good Job:

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_Ridinandreptiles_ (11-04-2012),_saber2th_ (02-17-2011)

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## Adam Chandler

I'm not a big breeder but I tried Hatchrite last year for my one clutch and it worked great.

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_saber2th_ (02-17-2011)

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## FragginDragon

Personally I use Perlite.  In five years i've never lost an egg with it, and if it ain't broke, I ain't fixin' it  :Very Happy: 

I do intend to try using substrateless in the near future though.

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_saber2th_ (02-17-2011)

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## SlitherinSisters

Same set up as Rich and Deb. Substrateless. No messing up, no fooling around with water, no worries about if it's too wet or too dry. I tried hatchrite last year and my eggs kept dimpling and I never seemed to be able to get it right. I switched to substrateless halfway through and will be doing substrateless from now on.

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_piedplus_ (03-01-2012),_saber2th_ (02-17-2011)

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## ClarkT

Just wondering on the substrateless method. It sounds like it's the easy way to go. 

With that, do you use press-n-seal on the top of the egg tub? or do you just use a lid? if press-n-seal, do you add any air holes? What is the entire method?

Thanks

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## RichsBallPythons

> Just wondering on the substrateless method. It sounds like it's the easy way to go. 
> 
> With that, do you use press-n-seal on the top of the egg tub? or do you just use a lid? if press-n-seal, do you add any air holes? What is the entire method?
> 
> Thanks


You can use press n seal no matter what method you use. With larger incubators that have fans forcing air around, press n seal is a plus. Just once a week open the lid to allow fresh air exchange then close it up.

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_saber2th_ (03-14-2011)

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## Wh00h0069

HatchRite, because it is quick, easy, and in my experience, reliable.

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_saber2th_ (03-14-2011)

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## Blue Apple Herps

I do as others as well.  Vermiculite on bottom, light diffuser on top, eggs on that.  Works great, I've always gotten 100% hatchrate this way.

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_saber2th_ (03-14-2011),snakesRkewl (03-04-2012)

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## saber2th

As far as incubation is concerned, what is the difference between vermiculite and perlite? Why would someone choose one over the other?

thanks,

Dave

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> With that, do you use press-n-seal on the top of the egg tub? or do you just use a lid? if press-n-seal, do you add any air holes? What is the entire method?
> 
> Thanks


I never used press and seal and never had a need for it, no air holes either.

The egg boxes are open shortly every 2 to 3 days in the last 2 weeks of incubation.

Their are many methods out there and different way to do it, the mist important is to find the one that work for you.

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_saber2th_ (03-14-2011)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Substrateless with hatchrite. Eggs sit on a plastic light diffuser grate with a layer of cross stitch plastic canvas (available at craft and sewing stores) between the substrate and the light diffuser grate. This allows me to make the hatchrite extremely wet and the light diffuser grate will not sink in it. 

Incubator set at 89* give or take a degree.

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_saber2th_ (03-14-2011)

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## TreasureCoastExotic

I have used the Vermiculite/Perlite mix for years and have awesome suscess.....

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_saber2th_ (03-14-2011)

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## joepythons

> Hatchrite here.. Pour and stick the eggs in the cooker.. Maybe add a tiny bit of water in the corner toward the end of the cycle..


So how many eggs have you lost? That hatchrite is garbage  :Mad:

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## joepythons

> Substrateless with hatchrite. Eggs sit on a plastic light diffuser grate with a layer of cross stitch plastic canvas (available at craft and sewing stores) between the substrate and the light diffuser grate. This allows me to make the hatchrite extremely wet and the light diffuser grate will not sink in it. 
> 
> Incubator set at 89* give or take a degree.


Why are you spending $15 a bag if your adding water anyway?

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## sho220

> So how many eggs have you lost? That hatchrite is garbage


I love it...because you can't figure it out, it's garbage. Couldn't be operator error, now could it... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## VicShell

I'm hoping for my first clutch this year and everything i saw said to use vermiculite but i'm thinking about getting a light diffuser now instead thanks guys hopefully i get eggs

Vic

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## joepythons

> I love it...because you can't figure it out, it's garbage. Couldn't be operator error, now could it...


Nope sorry i am not the only one that knows this stuff is garbage  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .Nice try though  :Good Job:

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## sho220

> Nope sorry i am not the only one that knows this stuff is garbage .Nice try though


I'm also not the only one who can use this stuff successfully...a poor craftsman blames his tools... :Good Job: 

and what's with "Nice try though"...?

Heck...if it's good enough for Satan it's good enough for me!  :Very Happy:

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## RichsBallPythons

> I'm also not the only one who can use this stuff successfully...a poor craftsman blames his tools...
> 
> and what's with "Nice try though"...?
> 
> Heck...if it's good enough for Satan it's good enough for me!


"*** Key Features of HatchRite ***

 - No Dusty Mess

 - No need to figure out right Mix / Water Ratios

 - Less Maintenance

 - Eggs never sit on damp or wet substrate

 - Eggs constantly provided with optimal humidity"



I dont see paying 10-15$ per bag of something that requires you to still add water and watch for problems. Mine as well buy a huge 3cu. ft. bag of perlite for $10 and add water and you have the same thing.

This product was manufactured and promoted as pour,add eggs and done They dont tell you, our AWESOME product may dry out and need to add water.

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## joepythons

> I'm also not the only one who can use this stuff successfully...a poor craftsman blames his tools...
> 
> and what's with "Nice try though"...?
> 
> Heck...if it's good enough for Satan it's good enough for me!


If you have to add water to a product thats supposably made by a breeder then thats just plain ignorant.So if you want to waste $15 on a bag of this garbage thats your choice.The "nice try" comment was because you tried to turn it around and say it was my fault  :Razz: .Have a good one  :Good Job:

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## Miss Tuniwha

the last 2 years I did the vermiculite..   this year I am trying the suspended eggs over water thing that a few pals of mine do..


so I did not vote..  lol..

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## Homegrownscales

I'm a vermiculite girl  because that's what I know and always used.

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## abi21491

Previously I used sphagnum moss, but ditching that idea this year. I'm going to use the substrateless method - but with natural aquarium gravel underneath the egg crate to hold temps and keep the water from splashing about. I've read of someone using a similar method and it seems to be the best for me - the gravel can be sterilized and reused.



Haven't done it yet but I'm confident it will be a success.

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_piedplus_ (03-01-2012)

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## Courtney281

I use hatchright as well, with NO problems. My clutch of 8 came out just fine  :Smile:

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## sho220

I've already ordered more of that garbage Hatchrite because it worked so terribly last year (100% hatch rate)...just like all the years prior...  :Very Happy:

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## Andybill

Cool I love seeing this. its a huge question I have being an aspiring breeder. Thanks to all of you for the input it helps a lot. What do you use as far as containing the eggs during incubation? Is it just like a tote with a sealable lid or what?

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## snakesRkewl

We use perilite, water and light diffuser piece, so simple.

I tried hatchrite, it dries out as mentioned, tried vermiculite and it's a bit messy but loved the perilite after using it last season, so that's what we'll stick to.

Our egg tubs are sterilite 7qt locking lid tubs.

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## RichsBallPythons

for the price of one bag of hatchrite i can buy a huge 5cu ft bag of perlite and just add water.

I cant justify spending 10$ for a small bag of hatchrite that will do like 2 clutches at most, and Still have to add water. Save your money and buy a big bag of perlite and add water and do hundreds of clutches

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## snake lab

This is one of those threads where wharever each person uses is the best. With that said i use vermiculite like ive been using for 15 years cause it works and theres no reason to change.

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## RichsBallPythons

> This is one of those threads where wharever each person uses is the best. With that said i use vermiculite like ive been using for 15 years cause it works and theres no reason to change.


But would you buy a small $10 bag of perlite with water crystals in it from hatchrite of pay $10 for a huge bag that can incubate 100+ clutches.

Now if you only have 1-3 clutches a year then hatchrite mite be fine so you dont have to store a large bag for al ong time.

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## snake lab

Good point rich. Didnt think of it that way. Let me rephrase. For me because i have so many clutches a year it is cost affective to use vermiculite. And to those complaining about hatchrite and having to ad water. Duh. If you knew anything about incubation you would know you need to keep your substrate moist. If it dries out then make sure it doesnt by adding water. Same goes with vermiculite. It dries too. Sometimes ya gotta mist it. This isnt rocket science. Hell you can incubate with cypress mulch if ya wanted too. Whatever incubation material you use it has to have moisture. They teach that in kindergarten of egg incubation. Dont blame the product blame the user

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## Zombie

I have heard of stories where hatchlings have caught their umbilicus on the light grid and tore it, then subsequently bled to death. Has that ever happened to anyone here?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk

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## AGoldReptiles

I use Calcined Clay ( Superhatch). There is a great write up on incubation mediums, what they are, how they function, pros and cons if you Google: Repashy Superhatch

I have tried vermiculite, perilite, coco coir, mixes, SIM, and Calcined Clay. They all have pros and cons but IMO the Calcined Clay has less cons. The only con that I have found with it is that it is heavy, but that is also a pro to me because of thermal mass :Smile: 

I highly reccomend anyone who incubates reptile eggs to read that write- up! If anyone has any questions  I'm glad to help.

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## The Mad Baller

I use Sponge Rock with a light diffuser on top. It is a much bigger Perlite so it holds the light diffuser up without having to worry about eggs sinking at all and touching water or wet medium.  Had a 13 egg clutch last season and it never started to sink.

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## RobNJ

> What do you use as far as containing the eggs during incubation? Is it just like a tote with a sealable lid or what?


I use dollar store 6 quart containers and they have worked fine for me. I use vermiculite because it's cheap and easy to use. I have also incubated a clutch with a potting soil/peat moss substrate.

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## RobNJ

> I have also incubated a clutch with a potting soil/peat moss substrate.


I would not do this again though...the eggs all made it full term and the babies hatched out healthy, but the eggs were in really rough shape towards the end. I'm sure it was because the substrate was too damp, though it felt lighter/dryer than dampened vermiculite.

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## Eric Daley

Just water and an underwater fish tank heater hocked to helix!

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## T&C Exotics

I use vermiculite and have for years. I think that is best because a simple touch is all that is needed to see if it is getting dry. I can set up a tub and have it ready in under 5 minutes and have it in the incubator. I have used various other methods and they have worked extremely well but not nearly as well as vermiculite has for me. The best advice I can give is look at your local weather and judge off of that... In colder climates I have noticed that vermiculite works better but in warmer climates it dries out to fast. Some things work better than others it all really depends on what you are comfortable with.

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## RideRed12

> I have heard of stories where hatchlings have caught their umbilicus on the light grid and tore it, then subsequently bled to death. Has that ever happened to anyone here?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk


I was wondering this as well... anyone?

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## abi21491

> I was wondering this as well... anyone?


I move my eggs off of the egg crate and into an incubation container lined with moist paper towels once they pip (or if they were manually cut, before they start trying to explore.) Even if the chance is small that they'll injure themselves on the egg crate, I'd rather be safe than sorry! I know that stuff seems pretty harsh, especially on a freshly hatched exposed belly.

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_ahunt037_ (03-12-2013),_RideRed12_ (03-22-2012)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> I move my eggs off of the egg crate and into an incubation container lined with moist paper towels once they pip (or if they were manually cut, before they start trying to explore.) Even if the chance is small that they'll injure themselves on the egg crate, I'd rather be safe than sorry! I know that stuff seems pretty harsh, especially on a freshly hatched exposed belly.


That's an awesome idea! Thanks! 


*       ----> Signature <----
*Factoid: "There are no such things as Hogg Island or Columbian boas"*

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## MasonC2K

I am using substrateless with only water.

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## Don

I use Perlite with the light diffuser on top.  I use it because it can be reused from year to year, after it is cleaned and dried out.  It does a good job of holding water and does an effective job of keeping things from sloshing when moving an egg box.  

Like another poster above, once my eggs start to pip, I move the eggs to a separate container with on a wet paper towel.  I will also put a small ceramic bowl of water in the tub, that gets changed frequently.  

This method works for me, but there are many ways of doing it.  Find the method that you feel most comfortable with and use it.  None of them are perfect and almost all of them work.

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## Courtney281

Ok so I recently responded to this with an answer that I use Hatchrite. Well I have for the past 2 years, but mostly because I only had 1, then 2 clutches to incubate. I always had 100% hatch rate with it though. No problems with it, ever. However, this year I am expecting 9 clutches, and with Hatchrite at $19.99 a bag here in Vegas, I will be going with a Vermiculite and Pearlite mix this year as it will be much more cost effective. It's just a 50/50 mix, right?

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## gsarchie

I know this is an old post but it isn't a bad time of year to refresh everyone's memory by reading through it again.  As to the 50/50 question, it is 50/50 in terms of mass.  So if you have 25g of perlite then z out the scale and add water until you hit 25g again!

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## snakesRkewl

No mixing needed

Perlite
Egg crate
Water until it hits the bottom of egg crate
4 tiny holes for ventilation on the upper sides of the tubs
well sealed lid, IE no using crappy $1 tubs.

All this mixing and putting eggs into the substrate was great years ago, and I'm sure many still use it as people hate to change from what works for them, but the substrateless method is just too easy. 
I can't see why anyone trying to learn to incubate would want to learn to do it the harder way...

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## 3skulls

> No mixing needed
> 
> Perlite
> Egg crate
> Water until it hits the bottom of egg crate
> 4 tiny holes for ventilation on the upper sides of the tubs
> well sealed lid, IE no using crappy $1 tubs.
> 
> All this mixing and putting eggs into the substrate was great years ago, and I'm sure many still use it as people hate to change from what works for them, but the substrateless method is just too easy. 
> I can't see why anyone trying to learn to incubate would want to learn to do it the harder way...


Are you using the paper type of egg crate? 
Do you have a photo of the setup you use?

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## Ridinandreptiles

> No mixing needed
> 
> Perlite
> Egg crate
> Water until it hits the bottom of egg crate
> 4 tiny holes for ventilation on the upper sides of the tubs
> well sealed lid, IE no using crappy $1 tubs.
> 
> All this mixing and putting eggs into the substrate was great years ago, and I'm sure many still use it as people hate to change from what works for them, but the substrateless method is just too easy. 
> I can't see why anyone trying to learn to incubate would want to learn to do it the harder way...


You forgot to mention the straws :Very Happy:

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## snakesRkewl

> You forgot to mention the straws


 :ROFL:  I actually use plastic clips but straws are awesome too  :Snake:

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## ChrisP

So heres my plan for incubation after reading all this: 

-1 Cooler with an underwater heater hooked up to a helix
-2 small bricks and a diffuser

so do i put my eggs directly on top of the diffuser or 
do i put them in a 6 qt egg box with unmixed perlite and 1 hole on the 4 corners with press n seal on top ?

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## Ally.

This is my first year breeding, so my plan was to use the substrateless method with either vermiculite or perlite. My questions are, if the mix is too wet, will the egg crate sink into the mix? And do you guys use anything to keep the eggs from rolling around when you take them out to check on them? Or do they stay put on their own?

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## snakesRkewl

After 2 weeks the eggs will be flat on the bottom, before that I use plastic clips that hold them from rolling.

If the perlite/vermiculite has too much water then yes the egg crate will sink.
I use two pieces of egg crate per tub and that has eliminated the sinking of the egg crate.
Some people cut 4 pieces of 1/2" pvc pipe and place the egg crate on those.

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Ally. (11-04-2012)

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## Ally.

> After 2 weeks the eggs will be flat on the bottom, before that I use plastic clips that hold them from rolling.
> 
> If the perlite/vermiculite has too much water then yes the egg crate will sink.
> I use two pieces of egg crate per tub and that has eliminated the sinking of the egg crate.
> Some people cut 4 pieces of 1/2" pvc pipe and place the egg crate on those.



Awesome, thank you!

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snakesRkewl (11-04-2012)

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## gsarchie

Great ideas coming out here.  Something that I have thought about - could I use egg crate on the pvc pipes in the cooler itself with the flexwatt running down one side, across the bottom and back up the other and then pour water into the bottom of the cooler (submerging some of the flex watt)?  I know they say not to submerge their product but it is sealed, so should it still work?

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## don15681

> Great ideas coming out here.  Something that I have thought about - could I use egg crate on the pvc pipes in the cooler itself with the flexwatt running down one side, across the bottom and back up the other and then pour water into the bottom of the cooler (submerging some of the flex watt)?  I know they say not to submerge their product but it is sealed, so should it still work?


If I understand what you're trying to do correctly.
I wouldn't use anything that has electric running thru it in water that wasn't meant to be use in water.
I would still use egg boxes in the cooler. 1 reason, every time you open the cooler to check on the eggs. you're letting a lot of cold air in. when you shut the cooler the difference in temps is going to cause a lot of condensation, which could drip on the eggs. in an incubator with egg tubs. yes you let cold air in when opening it. but the egg tubs is another barrier between the difference in the air temps and the eggs. and the temps in the egg tub isn't changed as much keeping condensation to a min.

when building an incubator for ball python eggs. the incubator is what controls the temps. the egg box controls the humidity. when you have a problem, it's much easiler to fix this way. when the incubator controls both temps and humidity, fixing one may affect the other creating problems that could of been avoided. even the big breeders who have a room for their incubator, still uses egg boxes. some used buckets with glass on the tops so they can look in. I think if you make plans for the incubator controlling temps and the egg box controlling humidity, you will be more successful with incubating your eggs. just my opinion, good luck don

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snakesRkewl (11-04-2012)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Plastic cross-stitch canvas... Problem solved! I use this stuff between my light diffuser grate and the substrate. It prevents the grate from sinking. This way I can completely drench my hatchrite to the point where I don't have to add any water at all thought the entire incubation period. 

The cross stitch canvas is flexible and can be cut to fit using regular scissors. I get it at hobby lobby for super cheap or any store that sells crafts. Here's what it looks like in use.

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Ally. (11-04-2012),_Ridinandreptiles_ (11-05-2012),snakesRkewl (11-04-2012)

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## snakesRkewl

I always forget about that trick Monica, I have had zero issues with incubating so it's hard to change, but adding that plastic mesh seems like a no brainer  :Wink:

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Foschi Exotic Serpents (11-04-2012)

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## Ally.

> Plastic cross-stitch canvas... Problem solved! I use this stuff between my light diffuser grate and the substrate. It prevents the grate from sinking. This way I can completely drench my hatchrite to the point where I don't have to add any water at all thought the entire incubation period. 
> 
> The cross stitch canvas is flexible and can be cut to fit using regular scissors. I get it at hobby lobby for super cheap or any store that sells crafts. Here's what it looks like in use.


Great idea! Thank you, I might actually try this way!

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Many people don't like the hatchrite because of its tendency to dry out unless you're only using it with the so-called substrate less method using the light diffuser grate. I love the hatchrite for two reasons.. It's clean and white, and it can be put in a strainer to be rinsed, allowed to dry, and re used indefinitely.

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