# Ball Pythons > BP Pictures >  Scale-less BP photo!

## Rickys_Reptiles

Here it is....

And for everyone who thanks this post, you're welcome  :Wink: 



Scaleless BP produced by BHB

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## michel

Wow...thats absolutely CRAZY!

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xbikez (10-12-2013)

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## Montypython696

I'm still not sure how I feel about this new morph line. Still its a pretty unique looking snake.

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Tarzan152 (01-13-2014),xbikez (10-12-2013)

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## MootWorm

Thank you! He's so surreal. Almost looks like a sculpture.

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xbikez (10-12-2013)

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## snakeman13

Maybe my eyes are getting old and don't see as well.
I still do not see any visible heat pits!!

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xbikez (10-12-2013)

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## Rickys_Reptiles

> Maybe my eyes are getting old and don't see as well.
> I still do not see any visible heat pits!!


Perhaps the holes we usually see are between the scales... maybe without the scales the "heat sensory" still exists  :Confused:

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xbikez (10-12-2013)

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## Tannerrrtx

> Perhaps the holes we usually see are between the scales... maybe without the scales the "heat sensory" still exists


 i think thats right? either way, i cant wait to see the crazy combos of this in the future.

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xbikez (10-12-2013)

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## Pythonfriend

:Tears:   :Sad:   :Tears:   no heat pits. there were rumours that the BHB scaleless would have heat pits  :Mad: 

i dont see any signs of belly scales either. 

my opinion was that if they do not have heat pits, i dont see a real future for the morph. but i expected them to have heat pits. really disappointing. that the optics are so nice makes it even more frustrating.

anyway thanks for sharing, i have been looking forward to see it, but its not what i expected.

EDIT: skin is intransparent to infrared. if there are no heat pits with depth, the directional infrared "vision" of the BP is gone. they will still feel warmth in front of their face, but its not directional anymore. kinda like closed eyes. all the precision is gone.

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xbikez (10-12-2013)

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## kat_black181

It looks good, but I agree with snakeman13. I don't see any heat pits...

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## snakeman13

> Perhaps the holes we usually see are between the scales... maybe without the scales the "heat sensory" still exists


take a close look at a normal BP. They are pits, holes in their face to say.
I don't think that if you removed the scales on a normal BP, that the skin would be smooth.
I think there will still holes where the pits are.
Time will tell how much this will or will not affect him.

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_decensored_ (10-04-2013),_Rickys_Reptiles_ (10-04-2013)

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## eatgoodfood

Hard to tell in the pic, but the nostrils don't look right either....  Will be interesting to see if they thrive or not.

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## Rickys_Reptiles

Found this on wiki.... shows how the "heat pit" works. It's true, there should be a hole. So this snake doesn't have holes, therefore it doesn't have heat pits. huh.... *twiddles thumbs*

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## Archimedes

Gorgeous snake. I shall withhold my personal judgement until we see complications arise.

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## Marrissa

The clarity of the patterns is amazing but I'm with the rest I'm disappointed about the heat pits. I'm insanely curious to see how it effects the two snakes.

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_Archimedes_ (10-04-2013)

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## jsmorphs2

This is such an interesting genetic trait and it should be learned from and studied but I kind of hope it doesn't become popular in the industry. It really seems like there will be a few health/husbandry issues arising with them. I hope for BHB & the snakes sake that they are perfectly healthy though! It really is a beautiful animal.

It also looks like there isn't an ocular scale?? I wonder if that will lead to any eye complications.

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## Mr Oni

Wow, thats beautiful

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## Archimedes

Yeah, the sneak-peek photo Brian put up didn't make it look like an ocular scale existed.

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## Pythonfriend

this seems to be the post 1st shed picture. the eyes look fine to me.


about the heat pits, i have this little video about the evolution of the eye. since we are talking about heat pits, look only at the first 3 steps explained in the video. and replace "light" with "infrared radiation", and "photo-sensitive cells" with "heat-sensitive cells".

also, only the first 50 seconds of the video are relevant.  


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEKyqIJkuDQ

thats what is lost when you cover the heat pits with skin, which is intransparent to infrared. you reduce the heat-sensing ability from the third evolutionary step in the video, crude pinhole camera, to the first step in the video, which is merely detecting the presence or absence of infrared radiation. 

i suspect it will be hard for them to hit their prey. blind BPs that have no problem with hitting their prey on first try show that the heat pits are what enables BPs to do so. worst-case scenario: assist feeding.

and in the image it really looks much like the deme ball, which means, heat pits completely covered. even at that angle, you should see 4 heat pits, but there is only smooth skin.

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## Bugmom

It looks really cool.... from the neck back. The head is just wrong. I love BPs for the way their adorable little heads look. This one just lacks the cute factor for me. Still cool that it was done, but I don't see it as a must have for me.

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## Marrissa

I have to agree. The head just doesn't look right. The shape isn't right without the scales and the more I look at it the more the areas around the eye and the lips just slightly creep me out. I don't think "awh" like I do with all other hatchlings. I love the clarity of the pattern but I will never own a scaleless even if they become popular.

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Bugmom (10-04-2013)

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## rafacacho

New is always scary. Let see how it goes. It`s just another morph, and its a nice one.

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## snakeman13

> New is always scary. Let see how it goes. It`s just another morph, and its a nice one.


This is NOT just another morph!
This is a man made Evolutionary jump. If it was a morph as you say,
it would appear in nature and not the Incubator.

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## dr del

> This is NOT just another morph!
> This is a man made Evolutionary jump. If it was a morph as you say,
> it would appear in nature and not the Incubator.


Errrr....

The scaleless head came from the wild - this is just the superform. There is no reason to assume it hasn't happened in the wild or couldn't again in the future.

It's not like they made it in a lab.

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## Buttons

> This is NOT just another morph!
> This is a man made Evolutionary jump. If it was a morph as you say,
> it would appear in nature and not the Incubator.


It DID appear in nature. Brian handpicked the parents from an African batch of BPs that had scaleless heads.

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## snakeman13

" this is just the super form "

Exactly!
It was bred to produce the super.
What are the chances in the wild that the scales head would breed, then rebreed to an offspring to produce the super?
Can you calculate that high?

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## Pythonfriend

> This is NOT just another morph!
> This is a man made Evolutionary jump. If it was a morph as you say,
> it would appear in nature and not the Incubator.


umm, adult scaleless snakes of 2 different species were discovered in nature, i dont remember the species because it was something venomous. 

but i agree with the sentiment....   its a very very extreme morph. more extreme than the morph issues we are used to, like the occasional wobble or duckbill or eye issues. if these really always have the issue of missing heat pits and missing belly scales all the time, thats huge compared to other morph issues because it really affects the BP.

EDIT:



> " this is just the super form "
> 
> Exactly!
> It was bred to produce the super.
> What are the chances in the wild that the scales head would breed, then rebreed to an offspring to produce the super?
> Can you calculate that high?


the chances would not be too low, because BPs dont move around too much in nature. if a clutch with 3 or 4 scaleless heads hatches in the wild, chances that two of them would mate would not be too remote. depending on how often the mutation occurs and on the population size, stuff like that would appear and die out again maybe every few decades or every few centuries.

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## OhhWatALoser

> " this is just the super form "
> 
> Exactly!
> It was bred to produce the super.
> What are the chances in the wild that the scales head would breed, then rebreed to an offspring to produce the super?
> Can you calculate that high?


same as any recessive trait, which some have been found in the wild....

So I'm pretty sure when I present my room temp rat to my snakes, it does not use it's heat pits to find it. So why is this the big topic?

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adre531 (10-05-2013),_satomi325_ (10-05-2013)

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## snakeman13

"So I'm pretty sure when I present my room temp rat to my snakes, it does not use it's heat pits to find it. So why is this the big topic? "

I am pretty sure it took a while for your snake, to learn to hunt for the dead prey by scent.
I am sure in the wild their prey is live.

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## OhhWatALoser

> "So I'm pretty sure when I present my room temp rat to my snakes, it does not use it's heat pits to find it. So why is this the big topic? "
> 
> I am pretty sure it took a while for your snake, to learn to hunt for the dead prey by scent.
> I am sure in the wild their prey is live.


So everyone just jumping the gun assuming this snake cannot learn to eat without heat pits?
I'm pretty sure a majority of the morphs we have wouldn't survive in the wild, why is this even brought up?

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## Robyn@SYR

Here is a different and larger pic that is now out. You can see the egg tooth if you save it and view it full size.

BHB says the animal has heat sensors, just no pits. He is also bringing at least one to NARBC Tinley Park next week for in-person viewing. Anxious to see it there!

I have been apathetic about the scaleless corns, and not a fan of scaleless beardeds, but I do like this iteration. Def lots of interesting visual possibilities!

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Pythonfriend (10-04-2013),_zeion97_ (10-05-2013)

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## Emilio

Amazing can't wait to see combo's. :Wink:

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_Solarsoldier001_ (10-05-2013)

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## anatess

Do you  think that Ivories or BELs would exist or even survive in the wild?  Because the chances of these are the same as those scaleless ones.

Scaleless gopher snakes of different maturity levels have been observed in the wild.  And there's no indication of more damage or injury to the scaleless gophers than their scaled counterparts.  This means that they do survive.

Scaleless Texas Ratsnakes were housed in the Bronx zoo and researched.  The research basically concluded that the lack of scales does not give any indication of handicap - they can still move as much as the scaled ones, they still retain hydration as much as the scaled ones, they can still thermoregulate as much as the scaled ones and they can still hunt prey as much as the scaled ones.  Brian was one of the pioneers in the research of that breed which spilled over to the cornsnakes.

Now, these bp's, too early to tell.  But, that's why we're excited about this bunch!  Because, if there's anybody who would know, and more importantly... care, about the viability of these guys, it would be Brian.

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## joebad976

I am not sure not having heat pits would be that big of a problem in captivity only time will tell. Either way that thing is freaking AWESOME.

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## francisco_24

Simply amazing!

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## CD CONSTRICTORS

Nothing against it, but it just doesn't do anything for me personally.

Looks like it came from "Toy Story"......

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## Expensive hobby

Ya genetic color mutations are one thing, but selectively breeding genetic deformities because it "looks pretty" is not what this hobby should be about.

Isn't it enough that we get to keep these beautiful creatures without "playing God" as many people say? And I will say this again, this is not a color mutation, it is a deformity. Meaning it is deformed from the normal "design" of the snakes physiology.

It would be on the same plain as breeding an animal without ears because it gives it that "slender, sleek look." It's more aerodynamic lol. This makes about as much sense.

I say stick to the pretty paint jobs and leave the anatomy and physiology alone.


Sent From an Enclosure

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## Pythonfriend

i guess it cannot be helped, certain breeders will work with them for a while, even if they have issues.

its now confirmed from several sources that Mike Wilbanks purchased 3 scaleless head BPs for 210000 dollars. i guess he will want to recoup some of that money. so the cat is pretty much out of the bag. at the very least i would expect some scaleless head BPs to hit the market, and once these float around anyone can go for the fully scaleless.

leaving the "survival in nature"-thing aside, i wonder how much it will affect their ability to be a good pet. will they require higher maintenance, or more vet bills maybe? how will it affect movement? they use the belly scales for the straight forward crawling.

many questions. the optics are stunning, i wonder what a busy-patterned jigsaw would look like in scaleless. or a champagne. But im not very optimistic, i suspect they will be less good as pets because of issues or more intensive care.

Just like some high-end pedigree dog breeds do not make good pets anymore because they have all kinds of weird genetic issues. 

But we will see, i want to see them crawl around and eat and get to age, then we will know.

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## loxocemus

one question i have not seen asked or answered anywhere is "does it have scutes, belly scales?" from the pics of bessettes animal (now deceased) it appeared to have no ventral scales. so does this one have ventral scales? and if not how will that change ur opinion of it.


rgds
ed

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## Pythonfriend

> one question i have not seen asked or answered anywhere is "does it have scutes, belly scales?" from the pics of bessettes animal (now deceased) it appeared to have no ventral scales. so does this one have ventral scales? and if not how will that change ur opinion of it.
> 
> 
> rgds
> ed


we are still waiting for a picture showing it. but i am pessimistic.

all scaleless snakes that i have seen so far that still have their belly scales also have some remaining scales on their head and around the mouth. basically a band of scales goes along the belly all the way from mouth to tail. this BHB line scaleless ball python appears to not have a single scale on its head. The original deme-ball had a few random scales on the body, but also no scales on the head or lips, and also no belly scales. so i strongly suspect the whole body is scaleless and there will be no belly scales. but, well, a picture of the belly could still prove me wrong. 

if a belly shot confirms the absence of belly scales, it makes you wonder how it looks when they crawl.

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## Artemille

I've spoken with someone working there, they do not have belly scales.

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Pythonfriend (10-04-2013)

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## loxocemus

so whats next in the scale of "acceptance because their captive and valuable", no tongue, no teeth, when does morph become cruelty....

its fast becoming "freakshow" instead of "hobby", u already have the clowns afterall.

rgds
ed






> I've spoken with someone working there, they do not have belly scales.

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## Kodieh

What does it matter to though? It's not as if every snake in the hobby is suddenly going to become scaleless over night. Or ever, for that matter. It's quite small on the grand scheme of things. 



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## loxocemus

there used to be only one pinstripe, how many are there now?

ed

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## Expensive hobby

> What does it matter to though? It's not as if every snake in the hobby is suddenly going to become scaleless over night. Or ever, for that matter. It's quite small on the grand scheme of things. 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


It's the fact that the hobby is degrading to the point I accepting practices that at their given pace will allow sub dermal implants on snakes because it looks cool.

It's not the snakes that a person personally owns, it's treating the animals we keep with enough respect that they are interesting by their own merits, not what we can tweak into them.

Color morphs is one thing as I have said before, but changing a snakes anatomy because we can, or it looks cool, or it will make lots of money is the wrong direction entirely.

We already have a bad rap with the whole killer snake aggression thing, and the weirdos own snakes thing, all we need now is narcissism to come along with snake ownership.

When will the animals we keep be enough to keep us fulfilled? When can all this designer boutique crap stop? I'm all for a pretty snake, but let's put the bedazzling guns away people.


Sent From an Enclosure

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_eatgoodfood_ (10-05-2013)

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## trevo

If we are going to talk about Morality then perhaps we are all horrible people for keeping an animal that is clearly designed to live in the wild, not cages, tubs or tanks for no other reason but human decadence and sense of fulfillment.

If we want to talk logic, snakes in the wild live a real hard life, and there are likely just as many defects born out in the wild that we never see because they die off young and turn to compost real quickly.  Every species has defective births.

If its okay to keep a snake in an enclosure rather than let it live in the wild (were they hail from) provided we give it what it needs to survive in captivity, why is it wrong to experimenting with breeding a the cost of a small percentage of defects?  Again, defects are likely born into the wild and die off quickly anyway (I have no certain proof of this, but it seems very highly likely, but please correct me if I'm wrong).....

I don't know, I think its only cruel when the purpose of creating a potential defective breed is strictly for the purpose of taking joy in the animals misfortune. 

Come to think of it, How many times do breeders get dead eggs, or snakes that die off relatively quickly after hatching that aren't scaleless??  How come that okay, but the second it scaleless we throw our hands in the air?

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_Annarose15_ (10-06-2013),heylookitsjon (10-05-2013)

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## Kodieh

> It's the fact that the hobby is degrading to the point I accepting practices that at their given pace will allow sub dermal implants on snakes because it looks cool.
> 
> It's not the snakes that a person personally owns, it's treating the animals we keep with enough respect that they are interesting by their own merits, not what we can tweak into them.
> 
> Color morphs is one thing as I have said before, but changing a snakes anatomy because we can, or it looks cool, or it will make lots of money is the wrong direction entirely.
> 
> We already have a bad rap with the whole killer snake aggression thing, and the weirdos own snakes thing, all we need now is narcissism to come along with snake ownership.
> 
> When will the animals we keep be enough to keep us fulfilled? When can all this designer boutique crap stop? I'm all for a pretty snake, but let's put the bedazzling guns away people.
> ...


Then sell your snakes off and join Peta. This whole hobby is new genes, new mutations (that's what they are, defects), and new combos. If that's against your constitution, the you ought to just pull out of them right? 

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## loxocemus

and so speaks the voice of the modern hobby

such a shame really

ed




> Then sell your snakes off and join Peta. This whole hobby is new genes, new mutations (that's what they are, defects), and new combos. If that's against your constitution, the you ought to just pull out of them right? 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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_Expensive hobby_ (10-05-2013)

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## Kodieh

> and so speaks the voice of the modern hobby
> 
> such a shame really
> 
> ed


You and your soap box can get out of the hobby if it bothers you on such a high level. 




> there used to be only one pinstripe, how many are there now?
> 
> ed


I did want to touch on this though, yes there used to be one pinstripe. Now, that doesn't mean YOU have to buy it. There are 7 snakes in my 8 snake collection that has nothing to do with pinstripes. The 8th? a pinstripe. One. Singular. I don't have all pinstripe combos. And if I hadn't had wanted a pin, I wouldn't at all. 

So, you basically made a ridiculously ignorant comment that has nothing to do with scaleless ball pythons. 

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## Badgemash

> so whats next in the scale of "acceptance because their captive and valuable", no tongue, no teeth, when does morph become cruelty....
> 
> its fast becoming "freakshow" instead of "hobby", u already have the clowns afterall.
> 
> rgds
> ed


I'm assuming you've never owned or been around purebred dogs before. I guess my giant headed, stumpy legged Scotties make me a freakshow now. 

While I'm on my dog related soap box, these are like mastiffs to me. Good for you if they're what you're into, I don't think they're inherently good or bad (same goes for the people who bred/own them), but they don't do it for me.

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## Mephibosheth1

Good grief guys!!  We're going to end up with another thread locked here...

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_Anya_ (10-05-2013),PitOnTheProwl (10-05-2013)

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## kat_black181

> Come to think of it, How many times do breeders get dead eggs, or snakes that die off relatively quickly after hatching that aren't scaleless??  How come that okay, but the second it scaleless we throw our hands in the air?


I have to definitely agree with this point. The kinks and eye issues among others are prime examples of it.

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trevo (10-05-2013)

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## angllady2

My word.  What a bunch of foul tempered brats we have here!

By your logic, spider ball pythons should have been eliminated as soon as it was learned they wobbled.  No self respecting breeder would own or breed anything with spider in it because of the glaring _defect_ they have.  And it carries through the genes no matter how many others may be present or how much it is outcrossed.  I don't see anybody vilifying the thousands of people who own and breed spiders knowing they are defective.  So why slam the people who bred this?  It's the same difference.  Spiders are not normal, and everyone knows they aren't normal, but I don't see them being removed from the hobby because of it. Some people accept it, some do not.

And how do you know these animals won't be able to live normally and comfortably?  Just because of the way they look?  By that logic, spiders shouldn't be able to live normally either.  There are of course a few exceptions, animals whose defect is so severe it prevents them from being able to hunt or even swallow prey.  But by and large, even those who show the defect severely can still function normally enough to eat, shed, poop and breed.  So why automatically assume these can't?  Unless it becomes obvious they cannot eat or shed or poop on their own, why condemn them and the people who bred them?

I am quite sure if it becomes obvious they cannot survive normally, they will quietly fade away like the Pearl did.  But until then, get a grip on your high and mighty selves.  Personally, I think they will do just fine and given enough time, we will eventually see more of them being bred by other breeders.  I wouldn't mind having one myself.  Not that I could afford it, but I think they look delightfully strange and I'd be happy to have one in my collection.

Gale

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## trevo

> I don't see anybody vilifying the thousands of people who own and breed spiders knowing they are defective.  So why slam the people who bred this?  It's the same difference.


Absolutely agree with this.  Its simply a distinction without a difference.

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## bad-one

Honestly as long as these snakes thrive I can't wait to get one! Very unique animal  :Good Job:

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## Soterios

Beautiful animal. Congratulations to Brian!

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## Expensive hobby

> Then sell your snakes off and join Peta. This whole hobby is new genes, new mutations (that's what they are, defects), and new combos. If that's against your constitution, the you ought to just pull out of them right? 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


And how did you come to this absolutely nonsensical association of what I said and a radical group of animal rights activists?

Why should I sell all my snakes and join PETA just because I don't agree with developing snakes that lack their natural anatomy?

And for your information, I own one wild type ball python, 6 naturally occurring BCI boas, a Dominican Red Mountain Boa(also 100% naturally occurring) and a yellow anaconda. None of which are designer morphs or anatomically missing specimens.

Your statement made no sense, and sets the tone for how seriously I may take you in future debates. If you want to debate like an adult, I'll be right here, if not I'm sure the mods can create a kiddie lounge for you.


Sent From an Enclosure

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## Kodieh

> And how did you come to this absolutely nonsensical association of what I said and a radical group of animal rights activists?
> 
> Why should I sell all my snakes and join PETA just because I don't agree with developing snakes that lack their natural anatomy?
> 
> And for your information, I own one wild type ball python, 6 naturally occurring BCI boas, a Dominican Red Mountain Boa(also 100% naturally occurring) and a yellow anaconda. None of which are designer morphs or anatomically missing specimens.
> 
> Your statement made no sense, and sets the tone for how seriously I may take you in future debates. If you want to debate like an adult, I'll be right here, if not I'm sure the mods can create a kiddie lounge for you.
> 
> 
> Sent From an Enclosure


So is this the new divisional line in our hobby? Anatomically correct  and natural occurring purist and designer freakshow lovers? 

My statement is fairly valid. You're being quite the unreasonable juvenile about a physical defect you do not have any mandate to own. You are completely unaffected by it because there will be people (foolish) like you that will not work with this gene at all. It has absolutely NO effect on you. Quite literally. 

Get over yourself, you're making this into something it is not. It literally does not affect you so long as you make it so. 

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## zeion97

> Here is a different and larger pic that is now out. You can see the egg tooth if you save it and view it full size.
> 
> BHB says the animal has heat sensors, just no pits. He is also bringing at least one to NARBC Tinley Park next week for in-person viewing. Anxious to see it there!
> 
> I have been apathetic about the scaleless corns, and not a fan of scaleless beardeds, but I do like this iteration. Def lots of interesting visual possibilities!


Just another reason to enjoy Tinley!!! Can't wait!


Also, instead of sitting here arguing how about we just WAIT? I mean seriously everyone is jumping on there own trains complaining when in reality we have NO IDEA what, if any problems the scaleless Royal will have.. It's like watching a trailer on a new video game and than complaining that you didn't like it when you played it........  (Meaning you NEVER played it)

In the end people will always disagree, we will NEVER all agree on a single topic besides that fact we LOVE reptiles, people will argue desserts are useless because of the female problems.. That spiders shouldn't be bred because they wobble, there will Lways be a argument with stuff like this... But right now we should just but our own opinions aside and WAIT to see if anything develops, than we can all go back to arguing.  :Razz:

----------


## Expensive hobby

> So is this the new divisional line in our hobby? Anatomically correct  and natural occurring purist and designer freakshow lovers? 
> 
> My statement is fairly valid. You're being quite the unreasonable juvenile about a physical defect you do not have any mandate to own. You are completely unaffected by it because there will be people (foolish) like you that will not work with this gene at all. It has absolutely NO effect on you. Quite literally. 
> 
> Get over yourself, you're making this into something it is not. It literally does not affect you so long as you make it so. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


So wait, I'm foolish because I choose not to own a scaleless gene ball python? Well thank you sir! Your elitist attitude has opened my eyes to my ignorance and now I know! I can see clearly now!

And please don't put words in my mouth because this is all in writing, and it makes you look like you are digging to find reasons to insult me.

And maybe, just maybe grab a dictionary, because certain points of your post don't grammatically make sense in context; a physical defect I have no mandate to own? Come again? Did I ever claim ownership of this defect? No, I did not. I was merely stating my opinion on the matter.

And since when did having an opinion about a topic mean I need to get over myself? In case you haven't noticed, I'M not making this into something it's not. There are two majority sides on this topic; people who like it and people who don't. I haven't made it anything.


Sent From an Enclosure

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## Inarikins

You miss the point where ALL morphs are "naturally occurring". They weren't dreamed up somewhere, or made in a test tube, they were pulled out of the wild (ie, nature). I can't really think of a single morph that didn't come out of, at some point, an animal either pulled from the wild or found to have a genetic trait while otherwise appearing normal, or "wild type". The Scaleless Head was pulled out of the wild (either captive hatched from a wild mom or caught as an adult, I don't know but it doesn't really matter), and, just going off of the fact that reptiles never move far from where they were hatched, a naturally scaleless BP could have occurred. If that snake had been pulled out of a burrow and shipped over, would you still be having this argument? Because, by your reasoning, it's a "naturally occurring" animal, and is therefore not some freakish creation dreamed up by one of the guys who is most passionate about his animals in the entire business.

Edited to add that I'm super excited about the Scaleless Ball and am super interested to see if the little ones survive and thrive and I hope they do. They're amazing little creatures and I hope Brian all the best going through with the project.

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## Crotalids

Disgusting animal. 

Not sure what is wrong with what nature gave us, there are hundreds of naturally pretty snakes. But for some reason humans like to ruin an animal.

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## therunaway

Okay. I'm just now tuning into this thread and wow has this site changed in the last couples of months. The way I'm going to try and explain this snake may make some upset but hopefully not. Here goes.

Basically what you guys are telling me is that no one should have this snake because it's scaleless and that's a deformity? All morphs are deformities. Now comes my comparison, so you're telling me that children born without limbs and with autism should thrown out? Isn't that what you're saying about this animal? My best friend has a prosthetic leg and arm, that's a deformity, whether snake or human, everyone deserves a chance! :Mad: 

Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk now Free

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## LawrenceT

> All morphs are deformities. Now comes my comparison, so you're telling me that children born without limbs and with autism should thrown out? Isn't that what you're saying about this animal? My best friend has a prosthetic leg and arm, that's a deformity, whether snake or human, everyone deserves a chance!


Would you deliberately breed children to be born without limbs or with autism though?

I'll wait until we know more about this morph before I pass judgement.

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## therunaway

You're missing my point. No I would not deliberately breed children with problems but, it's the fact that mistakes happen all the time!

Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk now Free

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## Crotalids

> You're missing my point. No I would not deliberately breed children with problems but, it's the fact that mistakes happen all the time!
> 
> Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk now Free


It's not missing the point, it was the fact your point was a stupid statement to make. 

Deformities in humans aren't encouraged, where as, deformities in reptiles are encouraged and are purposely bred.

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LawrenceT (10-05-2013)

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## eatgoodfood

> So is this the new divisional line in our hobby? Anatomically correct  and natural occurring purist and designer freakshow lovers? 
> 
> My statement is fairly valid. You're being quite the unreasonable juvenile about a physical defect you do not have any mandate to own. You are completely unaffected by it because there will be people (foolish) like you that will not work with this gene at all. It has absolutely NO effect on you. Quite literally. 
> 
> Get over yourself, you're making this into something it is not. It literally does not affect you so long as you make it so. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


This is nothing new, this division has been there for a LONG time.  There is a high number of herpetologists and hobbyists out there what despise what we "do" in the ball python world.  Some do go as far as only keeping specific localities of animals and keeping blood lines pure.  But on that, I think the morelia keepers are far worse, mixing species and subspecies like its nothing... this I HATE, you have no idea what your buying any more the bloodlines are so muddled.  As far as I know there are no subspecies of ball pythons, so breed away.  I am 100% anti hybrid.

As for the scaleless thing, not my cup of tea, and I will have to agree with expensivehobby on everything he has said thus far.  We have to have a point where we stop if anyone is ever going to take us seriously, the 'serious' side of the community already sees us as a danger to the hobby, not to mention a joke.

The whole thing about dogs that was brought up, well with some breeds the point of no return has been reached, and it should be illegal, were at the point where the only way they can reproduce is by cutting them open because they can no longer give birth naturally, its sick.  And thats where were headed with ball pythons, and corns and all of these other 'designer' snakes.

We have already gone this far, its here, its here to stay, I just hope it stops here.  And maybe its not all that bad, maybe I just have an extremist view here, I dont know, but it will be interesting to see how the rest of the herp community reacts to this.  I just hope that these animals are anatomically correct, minus the scales, and as we all can see by the picture, it doesn't have heat pits so were already screwing with that.  It will be interesting to see how the animal develops.

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_Expensive hobby_ (10-05-2013)

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## Crazymonkee

I am interested in seeing how it turns out! Beautiful animal  :Smile: 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

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## OhhWatALoser

Is it me or are people in this thread talking like this is the first scaleless snake in the hobby. Guys it is only the first scaleless ball python. Also some of these arguments are manipulation of the other's words just to prove who is right, is this the youtube comment section now? Can we at least have a logical argument?

Fun fact: Spider, Woma, Hidden Gene Woma, Champagne, Spotnose, Sable, Champagne, Desert, Caramel Albino, Cinnamon, Black Pastel, Lesser Platinum, Butter, and Piedbald all can have issues beyond the color mutation, whether it be alone or when combined with other morphs.

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## rlditmars

I am just stating my opinion for the purpose of provoking thought. I do not wish to argue. I "feel" that selectively breeding for traits, or deformities, etc. that diminish the animal's natural abilities , i.e. heat sensory, locomotion, etc., is indulgent and gives little consideration to the welfare of the animal. Be it scaleless snakes, hairless cats, pug nosed dogs, these are all examples of human's folly to appease their own curiousity and/or desires, while leaving the animal diminished.

Those that will argue about naturally occurring morphs such as the scaleless head, pied, etc. need to consider that natural selection will opt to eliminate those mutations that do not promote the species' existance. This is why albinism is not found in huge numbers or whole populations. As the animal is much more easily seen, it makes it much more vulnerable to predation. Perhaps if it were to avoid predation long enough it would prove to be susceptible to irradtiation from the sun and succumb to cancer (speculating I know). Further, I "believe" the arguement of selectively breeding children without arms, while extreme, makes the point well. People would probably percieve it as cruel and irresponsible since the result would hinder the ability of the person to live normally as we know one should live. There would likely be extreme debates and protests over the issue, if not legislation in the end. This is no different. It is just a different species with no advocate. 

 The owner of this animal has chosen to promote a birth defect, not a characteristic. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. Snakes have scales as the emperical data will confirm. That is a characteristic of snakes. The defect is one that likely would not promote nor enhance the survival of the animal, if it were to exist in a natural environment and had to fend for itself. And while this might be an opinion, it is only so because there has been no study of scaleless snakes in the wild. You may want to ask yourself, "why that is"? 

In my "opinion" a scaleless snake is not a positive for ball pythons. Just my 0.02

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_Crotalids_ (10-05-2013),_Expensive hobby_ (10-05-2013)

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## eatgoodfood

> Is it me or are people in this thread talking like this is the first scaleless snake in the hobby. Guys it is only the first scaleless ball python. Also some of these arguments are manipulation of the other's words just to prove who is right, is this the youtube comment section now? Can we at least have a logical argument?
> 
> Fun fact: Spider, Woma, Hidden Gene Woma, Champagne, Spotnose, Sable, Champagne, Desert, Caramel Albino, Cinnamon, Black Pastel, Lesser Platinum, Butter, and Piedbald all can have issues beyond the color mutation, whether it be alone or when combined with other morphs.


Not the first scaleless ball python, also not the first scaleless snake, I understand that, and scaleless snakes, if what someone previously said is true, can be found in the wild, not really my argument.  (Not saying what you said was specifically directed at me either)  The animal may be fine, I however wont support it.  The biggest issue I see here is that it has not heat pits, something that these animals have for a reason.  My point is, where does it stop?  There has to be a line where this becomes unmoral, and I feel, personally, that this is it.  I guess this is the point where I just step back, observe, and see how this all plays out.

----------


## OhhWatALoser

> I am just stating my opinion for the purpose of provoking thought. I do not wish to argue. I "feel" that selectively breeding for traits, or deformities, etc. that diminish the animal's natural abilities , i.e. heat sensory, locomotion, etc., is indulgent and gives little consideration to the welfare of the animal. Be it scaleless snakes, hairless cats, pug nosed dogs, these are all examples of human's folly to appease their own curiousity and/or desires, while leaving the animal diminished.
> 
> Those that will argue about naturally occurring morphs such as the scaleless head, pied, etc. need to consider that natural selection will opt to eliminate those mutations that do not promote the species' existance. This is why albinism is not found in huge numbers or whole populations. As the animal is much more easily seen, it makes it much more vulnerable to predation. Perhaps if it were to avoid predation long enough it would prove to be susceptible to irradtiation from the sun and succumb to cancer (speculating I know). Further, I "believe" the arguement of selectively breeding children without arms, while extreme, makes the point well. People would probably percieve it as cruel and irresponsible since the result would hinder the ability of the person to live normally as we know one should live. There would likely be extreme debates and protests over the issue, if not legislation in the end. This is no different. It is just a different species with no advocate. 
> 
>  The owner of this animal has chosen to promote a birth defect, not a characteristic. This is not an opinion, this is a fact. Snakes have scales as the emperical data will confirm. That is a characteristic of snakes. The defect is one that likely would not promote nor enhance the survival of the animal, if it were to exist in a natural environment and had to fend for itself. And while this might be an opinion, it is only so because there has been no study of scaleless snakes in the wild. You may want to ask yourself, "why that is"? 
> 
> In my "opinion" a scaleless snake is not a positive for ball pythons. Just my 0.02


Now If we were still in youtube mode I would point out the underline parts  :Smile:  but we can leave that alone.

I just wonder why do you feel the animals we keep need to be ready to go prowling the wild? I wouldn't be surprised if the bright white lucy got picked off first in the wild before the scaleless snake. I think we can both agree most would likely not survive. I doubt my husky would make it very far in the wild and she's a lot closer to the wild wolf than most dogs people own. 

However they do survive in captivity, which is where that line of ball pythons will be living for now on, they might as well forget about the wild. We don't know of any problems that will effect the scaleless ability to survive in captivity, it's all speculation right now. I'm sure it won't take long for anything to come to light, brian made this a very public thing and people want answers.

Maybe my optimism stems from the fact I have scaleless breaded dragon (silkbacks) and a hairless cat (sphinx). The dragon does require lotion every so often to keep his skin from drying out, but besides that he lives life normal as any other dragon, besides the silence of the lambs jokes made. The cat I could argue being hairless actually enhance the survival of the animal in captivity, less allergies and a cat that is more likely to socialize instead of the stereotypical screw you attitude of a normal house cat.

There just seems to be so much emphasis on the animals ability to survive in the wild, which shouldn't that be our last concern?

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_MootWorm_ (10-05-2013),_OctagonGecko729_ (10-10-2013),_sissysnakes_ (10-05-2013)

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## OhhWatALoser

> Not the first scaleless ball python, also not the first scaleless snake, I understand that, and scaleless snakes, if what someone previously said is true, can be found in the wild, not really my argument.  (Not saying what you said was specifically directed at me either)  The animal may be fine, I however wont support it.  The biggest issue I see here is that it has not heat pits, something that these animals have for a reason.  My point is, where does it stop?  There has to be a line where this becomes unmoral, and I feel, personally, that this is it.  I guess this is the point where I just step back, observe, and see how this all plays out.


The dermaball never really entered the hobby, one animal came and passed. I think your speculating about the heat pits being an issue. As for where does it stop... everyone has a line. It's wasn't so common when I got in the hobby, but talk to old timers and they will tell you about the days there were people against any morph because they were unnatural. Pastel and Hypo were abominations. Actually I don't know if ball pythons had that kind of blacklash as much as many colubrids did, but there were purists in that sense. We still have people now that will not work with any of the morphs I posted up above. I will wait to actually see how the scaleless does before I draw a line or not.

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## Crotalids

> Now If we were still in youtube mode I would point out the underline parts  but we can leave that alone.
> 
> I just wonder why do you feel the animals we keep need to be ready to go prowling the wild? I wouldn't be surprised if the bright white lucy got picked off first in the wild before the scaleless snake. I think we can both agree most would likely not survive. I doubt my husky would make it very far in the wild and she's a lot closer to the wild wolf than most dogs people own. 
> 
> However they do survive in captivity, which is where that line of ball pythons will be living for now on, they might as well forget about the wild. We don't know of any problems that will effect the scaleless ability to survive in captivity, it's all speculation right now. I'm sure it won't take long for anything to come to light, brian made this a very public thing and people want answers.
> 
> Maybe my optimism stems from the fact I have scaleless breaded dragon (silkbacks) and a hairless cat (sphinx). The dragon does require lotion every so often to keep his skin from drying out, but besides that he lives life normal as any other dragon, besides the silence of the lambs jokes made. The cat I could argue being hairless actually enhance the survival of the animal in captivity, less allergies and a cat that is more likely to socialize instead of the stereotypical screw you attitude of a normal house cat.
> 
> There just seems to be so much emphasis on the animals ability to survive in the wild, which shouldn't that be our last concern?


I think you'll find if there are any problems with the scaleless BP's you won't be finding out until they're available to everyone. 

Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.

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## mechnut450

I like the look but I would  not make a jump to acquire one until I know this one was thriving for at least 2 years.( plus it be years before I could afford one lol)

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## snakeman13

> I think you'll find if there are any problems with the scaleless BP's you won't be finding out until they're available to everyone. 
> 
> Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.


I agree with this 100%.
Just look what happened 3 years ago with the Toffee ball. That whole mess was kept quiet by the big breeder up here in Canada.
He kept quiet about the Albino issue, just so he could recover his investment.
The big guys that invest this kind of $$, will always hide the problems until they recover the $$.
Money is always first with these guys.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> You're missing my point. No I would not deliberately breed children with problems but, it's the fact that mistakes happen all the time!


That really is apples to oranges and I wont get into a debate on the problems with human reproduction due not only to ignorance of the people but also the greed of out food growers to pump tons of chemicals in our foods. Last time I checked we were not using chemicals to create our morphs, just selective breeding and luck. :Good Job: 


Now to touch on something going on here. 
Keep all posts on topic and without all the underhanded bickering.
I understand we all have an opinion but if yours is going to stink up the thread then keep it to yourself.

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_Mephibosheth1_ (10-05-2013)

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## Rickys_Reptiles

It is just me, or does it look like it's head has a cut in it? you can see it more clearly in this photo:

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## therunaway

Looks like a wrinkle.

Sent from my SPH-M830 using Tapatalk now Free

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## trevo

> And how did you come to this absolutely nonsensical association of what I said and a radical group of animal rights activists?
> 
> Why should I sell all my snakes and join PETA just because I don't agree with developing snakes that lack their natural anatomy?
> 
> And for your information, I own one wild type ball python, 6 naturally occurring BCI boas, a Dominican Red Mountain Boa(also 100% naturally occurring) and a yellow anaconda. None of which are designer morphs or anatomically missing specimens.
> 
> Your statement made no sense, and sets the tone for how seriously I may take you in future debates. If you want to debate like an adult, I'll be right here, if not I'm sure the mods can create a kiddie lounge for you.
> 
> 
> Sent From an Enclosure


Yeah, but you still keep snakes, who belong in the wild in a snake so your saying sometimes going against nature is okay, but only if you agree with the degree

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## OhhWatALoser

> I think you'll find if there are any problems with the scaleless BP's you won't be finding out until they're available to everyone. 
> 
> Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.





> I agree with this 100%.
> Just look what happened 3 years ago with the Toffee ball. That whole mess was kept quiet by the big breeder up here in Canada.
> He kept quiet about the Albino issue, just so he could recover his investment.
> The big guys that invest this kind of $$, will always hide the problems until they recover the $$.
> Money is always first with these guys.


The spider was not a big public youtube announcement. After the snake starts eating and shedding, Brian put himself into a position were he will have to own up to all the questions people have.

Allelic genes are now an issue?

Also quite the accusations both you make. The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?

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## Mike41793

I'm not really a fan of it personally but i wont tell someone else not to do something because i wouldn't want them telling me not to do something.  If you're gunna freak out over this then you have to freak out over previous scaleless snakes that have been made, hybrids that couldnt occur naturally, spiders wobbling and every other defect that has a chance of occuring in balls... Also you should branch out and be sure to get your panties in a bunch over other stuff like all the dumb AKC standards that have gotten dogs to be bred to look so deformed. I'm sure i could find stuff in EVERY animal hobby that people could freak out over. But honestly, whats the point? If you don't like it, just don't pay any attention to it... Simple as that.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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_satomi325_ (10-05-2013)

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## Pythonfriend

uuuuuh....    since i last checked the thread, lots of strawmans are coming up. in some cases people exaggerate and distort what other people say.

here a statement i fully agree with:




> The whole thing about dogs that was brought up, well with some breeds  the point of no return has been reached, and it should be illegal, were  at the point where the only way they can reproduce is by cutting them  open because they can no longer give birth naturally, its sick.  And  thats where were headed with ball pythons, and corns and all of these  other 'designer' snakes.
> 
> We have already gone this far, its here, its here to stay, I just hope  it stops here.  And maybe its not all that bad, maybe I just have an  extremist view here, I dont know, but it will be interesting to see how  the rest of the herp community reacts to this.  I just hope that these  animals are anatomically correct, minus the scales, and as we all can  see by the picture, it doesn't have heat pits so were already screwing  with that.  It will be interesting to see how the animal develops.


   100% agreed


The thing with Spider is: We breed them for the optics, and we justify it because in most cases the wobble is very slight. like the occasional head tilt. many show only a slight wobble when excited about food. But most importantly: noone tries to breed spiders that wobble and corcscrew like crazy. 

or, super cinnamon / super black pastel: yes they have a duckbill rather often, and very rare spine kinks. Now the duckbill would be something that probarbly can be line-bred into larger and more extreme duckbills. a bit like the flat-faced pekinese dogs or the tiny legged dachshund. We could go down that road and make a shovelhead breed of BPs. We dont. instead people are proud when they have super cinnys that show no duckbill at all. 

so its MAINLY about the optics, and we accept some health issues / anatomic issues because they only occur infrequently and most animals are not affected by it. When we do a risky morph or combo, we HOPE for the 90%+ of cases where the BP is totally fine and accept a few percentage points of risk that come with it.

Even then, many breeders avoid the issues alltogether, even if they want the optics. To go for patternless black, they save up for mahogany or GHI instead of doing a super black pastel. To go for a BEL, they go for lesser mojave or russo white diamond to avoid super lessers. Some avoid spider, and instead go for high-white calico, or pinstripe. 

and all is fine. some people avoid a risk of 5% of getting a deformity, others dont and hope for the best and that is acceptable. 


The key difference, the fundamental game-changer, and i think also the reason for the controversy is that with scaleless, we now have a form that has a 100% chance for not one, but two serious defects.

100% chance that the heat pits are gone and 100% chance that the belly scales are gone. many people argue "all morphs are defects, this is no different from any other morph". that argument does not work, there is a real difference: there are many spiders that are virtually free of wobble, and we do not breed them for the wobble. and we do not breed super cinnys for the duckbill, and many dont have one. 

that is the core difference between scaleless and any other BP morph. Scaleless BPs do not have a morph issue like: "sometimes diminished heat-pits; and a few of them also have reduced or partially missing belly scales". its much more drastic: all heat pits gone in 100% of the cases, all belly scales gone in 100% of the cases. 

This is where scaleless crosses the line and becomes a singularity, a morph more extreme than any other morph with possible defects. And a morph that cannot be compared in a meaningful way to any other morph with possible defects known so far. 

if scaleless BPs would have belly scales and heat pits, it would be a totally different story. thats why it also cannot be compared to scaleless corn snakes and scaleless texas rats in a meaningful way. they keep their belly scales and also some scales around their mouth, and they do not have heat pits anyway. they do not have the issues that we have with this line of scaleless BPs.

i like the discussion and i think the discussion is needed, but some statements and arguments are not helpful.

"all morphs are defects, this is no different!"  <-- not helpful.
"its just like scaleless corns or hairless rats"  <-- not particularly helpful, because... no.
"if you dont like scaleless, stop breeding alltogether"   <-- wooot?   no.
"we breed morphs with defects all the time"  <-- true to a degree, but when we do, we dont AIM for the defect, we accept a certain risk but hope for the best, so its not the same.
"BPs often die in the egg or shortly after hatching" <-- again, not helpful, because that cannot be avoided. we dont do it intentionally.
"its unnatural, wouldnt survive in the wild"  <-- also not helpful, its about pets, a white snake would also have problems.
"all morphs are natural and come from Africa and occasionally occur in nature" <-- doesnt help to decide what to do with the most extreme BP morph ever discovered.


this one is not like any other morph, its very very VERY different. i dont think truisms and blanket statements and pointing to the spider morph will be helpful in figuring it out.

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Bugmom (10-05-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (10-05-2013)

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## snakeman13

> The spider was not a big public youtube announcement. After the snake starts eating and shedding, Brian put himself into a position were he will have to own up to all the questions people have.
> 
> Allelic genes are now an issue?
> 
> Also quite the accusations both you make. The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?


I have no problem naming names.
The breeder I am speaking of is very, very well known.
He has had a few misadventures in the reptile industry.
His name is, Craig Stewart of the "Urban" industry.

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## Expensive hobby

> Yeah, but you still keep snakes, who belong in the wild in a snake so your saying sometimes going against nature is okay, but only if you agree with the degree


You are stretching an already weak argument way to thin. To that point, all animals should be let in the wild, because they ALL at some point came from the wild. What's wrong with this kindergarten country and people's inability to reason without jumping to extremes.

My view, it is ok to keep animals, as long as you do so in a manner that keeps quality of life paramount and you do not do things to them or with them that infringes on that quality. Breeding a snake purposefully to be anatomically incomplete is where I draw the line.

I have iterated and reiterated this point time and time again; pretty paint jobs are ok, breeding the snake to be without its most basic anatomical features is not.


Sent From an Enclosure

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_eatgoodfood_ (10-05-2013),_MootWorm_ (10-05-2013)

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## Bugmom

I refuse to knowingly work with any of the morphs that OWAL listed, because I refuse to knowingly breed an animal that could have a neurological problem or physical deformity. That isn't a "Oops, this one has an issue," that's, "I don't care if this one has an issue, it LOOKS good, so breed it." I personally couldn't do it because it would weigh too heavy on my conscious (I also couldn't dock a dog's tail or crop it's ears). That's the same reason I dislike people who have taken the dachshund breed so far from what it should be; a standard doxie doesn't have 3" long legs and the other physical characteristics that people decided they needed to have that did NOT contribute to the health of the animal, but instead caused MORE problems. And maybe I'm a hypocrite because I allowed my daughter to buy a hairless dumbo rat, but in my defense, I thought this was a naturally occurring animal and not one that had been purposefully bred to be this way. I found that out after Pinky became part of our family. But I would not ever breed this species knowing that, even though Pinky has a happy and healthy life and no health issues.

If this scaleless BP proves to have no health problems, then I'll feel a whole lot more comfortable about it existing. Until then, I'm just not comfortable with it. I'm really curious to know how it is going to move without belly scales, cause right now, I imagine it moving about as well as an eel let loose on a greased floor.

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## Crotalids

> The spider was not a big public youtube announcement. After the snake starts eating and shedding, Brian put himself into a position were he will have to own up to all the questions people have.
> 
> Allelic genes are now an issue?
> 
> Also quite the accusations both you make. The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?


I don't have a problem with saying Brian's name, the reason I didn't is because all big breeders at the same. Only care about money and not the animals. 

Any individual that bred the spider, and released it to the public is an idiot. The moment where that gene showed head wobbles etc, it should've been stopped, there and then. But no, of course, these guys don't care about the animals like I said, they only care about money. 

Who knows what problems these scaleless BP's will have, because they 100% won't be telling you, guess you'll have to find out once they're cheap enough for the public to afford.

----------


## Rockstars

Barring problems. I personally think it would be a great addition to my collection and look forward to seeing what comes of it.

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## Kodieh

This high horse you guys are riding, with this false sense of morality you have come up with against the scaleless gene I'm appalled at the entire lot of you. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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_bad-one_ (10-05-2013)

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## trevo

> This high horse you guys are riding, with this false sense of morality you have come up with against the scaleless gene I'm appalled at the entire lot of you. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4



I'm happy to see others point of view and I do.  The people who say its okay to do somethings that aren't natural but not others are living in the gray because its easier to not take a clear stance.  I'm more black and white on this.  Either its okay do it all or none of its okay.  From keeping snakes as pets, to genetically altering them.  Black and white.  If taking them out of the wild and putting them in a cage is okay, messing with genes through breeding is okay.  If mutating the genes in captivity is bad because its not natural, then keeping them as pets all together is bad because its NOT natural.  Everything in between the 2 extremes are just distinctions with out a difference.

Ill say it again, so long as the experimentation isn't for the sole purpose of harming the animal then I'm open.

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## 4theSNAKElady

> Thank you! He's so surreal. Almost looks like a sculpture.


Moot, we must have the same way of thinking  :Very Happy: . It definately looks unreal....like either its a 3-D watercolor painting or that its made from clay.

sent from my incubator

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_MootWorm_ (10-05-2013),_Solarsoldier001_ (10-05-2013)

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## filly77

Without the scales, the colors really pop, so to me in that sense I like it. I can only imagine how soft it feels. Maybe like a gecko? If so, that would be bad @** But.. to play devils advocate here.. 

Nevermind the possible lack of heat pits.. many snakes lack them and eat fine. 

The main need for scales are for protection.. I don't see this snake being protected much from burns, bites and scale rot. Yes, its easy to avoid bites by not feeding live.. its easy to prevent scale rot if you clean often and make sure your snake isn't living in wet conditions.. 

But even the best herper can have equipment failures. Which can cause temp spikes. 

I agree, we do play god with them. What are the chances that in the wild you will see a 3,4,5+ mutation ball? To me tho, playing with pattern and colors isn't unethical. Unethical to me is when you take its sole protection away. 

I'm sure who ever gets their hands on these expensive snakes will take amazing care of them. But when they become very popular, the average Joe schmoe won't take as much precaution and care.  Heaven forbid a live rat gets left in with one. If it balls up, it'll have no protection.  Imagine how fast scale rot could happen if someone doesn't know proper humidity?  

I personally don't agree with this morph, its amazing looking tho. But to me its sad for the snake to take its main protection away. So its simple. I just won't have one. 

That's all I have to say and will say on this subject.

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## OhhWatALoser

> I don't have a problem with saying Brian's name, the reason I didn't is because all big breeders at the same. Only care about money and not the animals. 
> 
> Any individual that bred the spider, and released it to the public is an idiot. The moment where that gene showed head wobbles etc, it should've been stopped, there and then. But no, of course, these guys don't care about the animals like I said, they only care about money. 
> 
> Who knows what problems these scaleless BP's will have, because they 100% won't be telling you, guess you'll have to find out once they're cheap enough for the public to afford.


You do know Kevin McCurly founded the spider project not Brian, right?

So if problems come about and Brian shows them publicly, will you come back and admit you were wrong? Assuming the animal can figure out a way to move and eat, what will your take on it be then?

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## OhhWatALoser

I have a hunch they will not be getting scale rot, just a hunch.

Also I think the average joe argument is a bad one, average joe can do anything to the animal regardless of scales or not.

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_joebad976_ (10-05-2013)

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## 4theSNAKElady

In addition to the dicussion ill add this:   .... imo it doesnt matter if the animal has heat pits, ass long as it can eat a f/t or p/k prey on its own. There are so many other snakes that dont have heat pits and survive quite well. Set that fact aside, Im sure this is just the beginning of Brians project. Since hes proved out the scaleless heads, hes gonna produce more scaless babies. Im sure its gonna be a several year "trial and error" project for him to find out what "works" for those babies. Regardless, Brian is making ball python history. If he can help them survive, and live well, kudos to him. I think its a kewl, very different animal, that is a world apart from all other ball python morphs.

sent from my incubator

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## Expensive hobby

> This high horse you guys are riding, with this false sense of morality you have come up with against the scaleless gene I'm appalled at the entire lot of you. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


This isn't a moral high horse issue. It's you getting butthurt over a snake that isn't yours, hearing facts that you can't argue, and fishing in the abyss hoping you catch something worth saying. So far you haven't come up with anything other than comments against the opponents, not the opposing view.

Personal jabs and name calling make you look childish. You need to at least have some ground to stand on before you go preaching.


Sent From an Enclosure

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_Mephibosheth1_ (10-05-2013)

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## Gerardo

I think people are freaking out way too early. Its too early to tell if these scaleless BPs will thrive or not. But im willing to wait and see how it goes. As long as the animal can live a normal life in CAPTIVITY then i have no problem with it. None of the morphs we love were meant to survive in the wild. They were made for people to care for them in captivity. Alot of questions will be answered with time. Im not for scaleless BPs or against them. I am neutral until we get more information about how they do in captivity.

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_Mephibosheth1_ (10-05-2013)

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## Crotalids

> You do know Kevin McCurly founded the spider project not Brian, right?
> 
> So if problems come about and Brian shows them publicly, will you come back and admit you were wrong? Assuming the animal can figure out a way to move and eat, what will your take on it be then?


I never said Brian founded the spider, I said "Any individual that bred the spider". Couldn't care less who bred it, they are all the same. 

I never said these 100% have problems. Your comprehension of English isn't very good is it? I said IF they have problems, they wouldn't tell you. It would lessen the amount of money they will make. 

I don't have a problem with all these morphs, i don't like them, I don't understand why people do when there are hundreds of pretty snakes to choose from. 

But this is a step in the wrong direction, no scales, no labial pits..what's next? No eyes? 4 heads? 3 tongues? How much longer is this mutilation of an already beautiful animal going to continue?

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## Xaila

It seems that one of these guys will be brought to Tinley next weekend, for anyone who will be there.  I'm hoping that once more people get to actually see it in person, some of the wild conjecture and fits of moral superiority will subside.  I don't think he'd willingly bring it out for tons of people to see in person if he's trying to 'cover up' severe health problems.  

Some of the paranoia about TEH BIG EVIL BREEDERZ conspiring with each other to dupe Basement Breeder Joe is a little silly.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   It reeks of bitterness and jealousy.  But I digress.

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_Robyn@SYR_ (10-07-2013)

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## Surrealle

So, here's a stupid question.. Do these guys shed?

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## satomi325

I think the snake looks neat. And I admit that I do want to touch and feel it. It looks rather soft. However, I don't agree with breeding it or for it.

But who am I to tell someone what they can and cannot do. Its not my business. Just like its no ones business to tell me what I should keep and breed. Im not interested in the scaleless, so I won't be paying much attention to them. I simply don't care enough.
I suggest those who aren't a fan to do the same.

If you like the scaleless, good for you. If you don't like the scaleless, good for you too. The most pointless debate since 'is a lesser different from butter'? Not everyone is going to agree. So just settle with agreeing to disagreeing.

The last scaleless  BP survived for 7 or so months before dying out of the blue. 
Will these guys will last longer....


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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## filly77

> I have a hunch they will not be getting scale rot, just a hunch.
> 
> Also I think the average joe argument is a bad one, average joe can do anything to the animal regardless of scales or not.


Lol maybe I should of been more specific, guess I thought it would of been obvious. But anyways.. here goes, a bacterial infection on its bare skin without scales protecting it will make for a horrible case of BELLY rot.

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## Surrealle

To some extent, I agree with the "stay out of it, it doesn't affect you" bit. But if someone is doing something that is causing an animal to suffer needlessly, I think that's where people should draw the line and start to get involved or protest. At that point, it becomes abuse, and that is definitely NOT okay. 

*I'm not saying we know enough about this morph yet to say that's the case*. But if it is, I definitely will not go along with just "minding my own business because it's not my animal".

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## Bugmom

> So, here's a stupid question.. Do these guys shed?


"Note: the scaleless Corn Snakes shed just like any other snake, you just  get a scaleless exuvia which is thinner. Their scaleless skin is  composed of an external and internal layer" (from here). So yes, scaleless snakes shed. 

On another note:
The protection argument can only work so far. A bite from a rat or mouse is going to cause damage whether the snake has scales or not. Scales only offer so much protection, and pointy objects go through scales just fine. Since BPs don't need light the same way bearded dragons do, there's no reason to assume that the animal will have any trouble regulating body temp or getting burned. Just like ALL animals: Don't offer a heat source hot enough for them to burn themselves on, and they won't! I do have to wonder if the hot spot in the tank will need to be a bit lower though; to what degree do scales effect thermoregulation, if at all?

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## OhhWatALoser

guess ill have to break this down..




> I never said Brian founded the spider, I said "Any individual that bred the spider". Couldn't care less who bred it, they are all the same.


lets recap...



> Just like with the spider's. The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet.





> The irony of saying "big breeder", just say their name or are you going to keep quite also?





> I don't have a problem with saying Brian's name, the reason I didn't is because all big breeders at the same.


How the heck am I supposed to read it any other way? Thus I confirmed you knew Kevin founded it. Since you still never said his name




> I never said these 100% have problems. Your comprehension of English isn't very good is it? I said IF they have problems, they wouldn't tell you. It would lessen the amount of money they will make.


Thus if brian showed the problems publicly, it would make you wrong. What was that about comprehension?

----------


## OhhWatALoser

> Lol maybe I should of been more specific, guess I thought it would of been obvious. But anyways.. here goes, a bacterial infection on its bare skin without scales protecting it will make for a horrible case of BELLY rot.


The bacteria forms when lodged under the scales, causing the infection that rots the scales and skin, not having scales would actually help that since it wouldn't harbor it.

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_Robyn@SYR_ (10-07-2013)

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## satomi325

> To some extent, I agree with the "stay out of it, it doesn't affect you" bit. But if someone is doing something that is causing an animal to suffer, I think that's where people should draw the line and start to get involved or protest. At that point, it becomes abuse, and that is definitely NOT okay. 
> 
> *I'm not saying we know enough about this morph yet to say that's the case*. But if it is, I definitely will not go along with just "minding my own business because it's not my animal". Same as any other situation where I see an animal in unnecessary distress at the hands of a human.



I suppose I should have said within reason of not being abusive where the animal couldn't live a quality life.

The breeders involved are passionate about their animals. I'd like to think they don't purposely abuse their animals or make them suffer.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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## filly77

I assumed if people lacked on cleaning, them laying in their own waste would cause harm to their skin. But if what you say is true, than I stand corrected. Ty 




> The bacteria forms when lodged under the scales, causing the infection that rots the scales and skin, not having scales would actually help that since it wouldn't harbor it.

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## Surrealle

> I suppose I should have said within reason of not being abusive where the animal couldn't live a quality life.
> 
> The breeders involved are passionate about their animals. I'd like to think they don't purposely abuse their animals or make them suffer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



Fair enough.. And I wasn't directing my response at you specifically, I've seen a few others in this thread telling the nay-sayers to mind their own business because it doesn't affect them. 

I think if an animal is suffering, in this case by potentially not being able to thrive because it's scaleless, people _should_ get up in arms about it whether it affects them directly or not. I'd be disgusted with anyone that would just shrug and let it slide. 

(Unfortunately, when you're talking about the kind of money this type of snake could fetch, I don't trust anyone to have the animal's best interest at heart. Not saying they wouldn't, but I personally wouldn't rely on it.)

And once again, I'm not saying that is the case here. We clearly don't know enough yet to judge.

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## Mephibosheth1

It all comes down to quality of life.


For dogs I list the following:

Golden Retrievers are prone to hip dysplasia.

German Shepherd Dogs are prone to hip dysplasia.

Basset Hounds are prone to luxation of vertebral discs.

Rotweilers are prone to anemia and ACL tears.

Shar Peis are prone to skin fold pyodermas.



For Cats I list the following:

Scottish folds are prone to arthritis later in life, and also carry a lethal recessive gene.

Persians are prone to breathing difficulties, skin fold pyodermas, and have a constant self care deficit.

Sphynxes are prone to getting cold at night, and also are more likely to have dry skin.




However, in each of these cases, the animals are able to be properly cared for and have a good quality of life with only MINOR changes to "normal" husbandry practices.


Spider Balls are no different.  The wobble is passed with the gene; anyone who is against it is free to stop making them, but the fact is that the wobbliness (in most cases) does not affect the animal's quality of life.  If anything, it can increase iteveryone seems to take extra good care of their spiders BECAUSE they have the propensity for an issue.


This Scaleless morph will be seen by the general public in a few weeks (days??) and as more information goes out about it we will get the REAL story....not some speculation based on 2 pictures, or phone calls to those who have glimpsed the animal.  Then it is up to you (and the breeders) to decide what will happen with it.  If there is solid evidence that the morph is challenged to the point of inability to properly survive, I have no doubt that all RESPONSIBLE breeders will cease mass production, or at least will work with the gene privately in an attempt to rectify the problems.

However, if there is no issue with the morphit is able to breath, shed (if that's a thing with them), eat, poop, and interact safelyand there would only have to be slight modifications to husbandry to keep them healthy and happy (no spiney substrate, only F/T meals, etc.), then what would the difference be between a Scaleless BP and a German Shepherd Dog with hip dysplasia??  They both live happy, healthy, meaningful lives, and only require SLIGHT modifications to their diet/exercise/housing to deal with a non-lethal issue that is "natural" to their breed.


If anyone is of a different mindset, and would like to express their view, go for it!!  :Good Job:   Maybe you will get some converts...diversity is a good thing.
But if you want to get others to agree with you, you need to have SOLID REASONS for how you feel (not just feelings), and you CAN"T attack the other person for their beliefs.  Quarreling never persuades anyone; if just polarizes the issue even further.  The only way to convince someone else that their view needs adjusting is to acknowledge their viewpoint, put your hand around their shoulder, and lead them gently to your side of things; dragging them over while calling them names will only result in anger and dissent.



[/END POST]

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_Anya_ (10-08-2013),_Expensive hobby_ (10-05-2013),Surrealle (10-05-2013)

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## Bluebonnet Herp

My only quarry regarding scaleless snakes is whether or not they have eyecaps and belly scales. Without eyecaps, I can imagine that being without any means to clean their eyes, it could get infected, or at least be irritating. However, I do know that French-line scaleless corns actually do have eyecaps, so I won't disregard other scale-less snakes if they also have eyecaps.
Otherwise, as long as the animal remains healthy and well in captivity, then I don't see a problem. After all, it's not like other morphs such as albinism don't increase the risk of cancer or blindness.

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## Kodieh

> This isn't a moral high horse issue. It's you getting butthurt over a snake that isn't yours, hearing facts that you can't argue, and fishing in the abyss hoping you catch something worth saying. So far you haven't come up with anything other than comments against the opponents, not the opposing view.
> 
> Personal jabs and name calling make you look childish. You need to at least have some ground to stand on before you go preaching.
> 
> 
> Sent From an Enclosure


IT IS a moral high ground and you're opinion is moot in the end. You don't have to own it, you have an opinion on something completely unaffected you. Essentially, it's none of your business unless you make it. Which you're doing. 

Basically, you're whining and it's nothing that concerns you. 

Oh, and my argument against yours is. Who cares? It's a mutation, and you don't have to have anything to do with it. It's as simple as that. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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_bigt0006_ (10-05-2013)

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## TheSnakeGeek

> Fun fact: Spider, Woma, Hidden Gene Woma, Champagne, Spotnose, Sable, Champagne, Desert, Caramel Albino, Cinnamon, Black Pastel, Lesser Platinum, Butter, and Piedbald all can have issues beyond the color mutation, whether it be alone or when combined with other morphs.


sorry to derail the thread. lol i know the issues with all of these genes except for spotnose and piebald. what issues do they have?

on topic: i love it. the lack of scales really ramps up the clarity. crisp contrast. it's gonna make combos look ridiculous. 

if you don't like it, don't work with them. i think people in the hobby forget that "morph" is a slang word we use for a genetic MUTATION. all the "pretty" colors we work with are already by definition MUTANTS, and most of them would stick out like a sore thumb in the wild. so the whole "it wouldn't survive in the wild" argument is kind of irrelevant. these animals AREN'T in the wild, so why would it be?

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_Mephibosheth1_ (10-05-2013)

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## PitOnTheProwl

Kodeih and Expensive hobby
You each have an opinion but your constant _bickering here needs to STOP_.
I thought I made myself clear in my last post and was trying not to call anyone out but evidently I need to be crystal clear now.

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_bigt0006_ (10-05-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-05-2013),_satomi325_ (10-05-2013),_zeion97_ (10-05-2013)

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## Surrealle

> IT IS a moral high ground and you're opinion is moot in the end. You don't have to own it, you have an opinion on something completely unaffected you. Essentially, it's none of your business unless you make it. Which you're doing. 
> 
> Basically, you're whining and it's nothing that concerns you. 
> 
> Oh, and my argument against yours is. Who cares? It's a mutation, and you don't have to have anything to do with it. It's as simple as that. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4



I think there are two types of people who are "disagreeing" with this snake. Those that don't like how it looks (in which case, yes, fine, they don't have to own it). And those that are worried about its health and safety, long-term. That's what animal lovers do, and they have every right to be concerned. As of right now, we don't know enough yet to judge whether this snake will live and thrive in captivity, but it's a concern that can and should affect someone that loves animals. Breeding an animal that will suffer or die prematurely (IF that ends up being the case) simply for money or because it looks good is completely immoral, IMO.

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_Expensive hobby_ (10-05-2013)

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## Kodieh

I'm 


> Kodeih and Expensive hobby
> You each have an opinion but your constant bickering here needs to STOP.
> I thought I made myself clear in my last post and was trying not to call anyone out but evidently I need to be crystal clear now.


If we're not allowed to discuss this, why leave the thread open? 

Would it upset more of you to know that a pair of this gene has already sold for as little as $100,000? I'm going to find out the exact number hopefully next weekend, I'll keep you guys posted. 
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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## OhhWatALoser

> I assumed if people lacked on cleaning, them laying in their own waste would cause harm to their skin. But if what you say is true, than I stand corrected. Ty


I'm pretty sure that would cause issues, but its not quite the same as scale rot. I'm pretty sure harm could come scales or not though.




> sorry to derail the thread. lol i know the issues with all of these genes except for spotnose and piebald. what issues do they have?


Super Spotnose (Powerball) have a wobble and Piebald Lesser can have undersized eyes.




> Would it upset more of you to know that a pair of this gene has already sold for as little as $100,000?


rumor is 210,000

and how does the price have anything to do with the discussion at all? no it does not upset me or even having anything to do with my opinion or mood at all.

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_TheSnakeGeek_ (10-05-2013)

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## TheSnakeGeek

> Super Spotnose (Powerball) have a wobble and Piebald Lesser can have undersized eyes.


now that you mention it, i do remember hearing about the piebald lesser. had no clue about the powerball though.

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## Kodieh

> and how does the price have anything to do with the discussion at all? no it does not upset me or even having anything to do with my opinion or mood at all.


Well, "as an animal lover" the propagation of thus abomination... 

Nah, I'm done. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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## Buttons

Maybe I missed a page or a picture but ..... where is everyone getting the idea that it doesn't have belly scales?

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## DavidMundy

I think the scaless is amazing and I cant wait to see what it looks like with other genes added on. I'm sure Brian will inform everyone IF there are any health issues with it. He is a great guy and loves the animals he works with.

On a side note though. How did the picture actually leak? It seems to me that Brian was not happy about this at all. I know I would be pretty pissed off as well...whoever did it may of done it with the right intentions but to me it is still stealing and is wrong.

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## snakeman13

> I think the scaless is amazing and I cant wait to see what it looks like with other genes added on. I'm sure Brian will inform everyone IF there are any health issues with it. He is a great guy and loves the animals he works with.
> 
> On a side note though. How did the picture actually leak? It seems to me that Brian was not happy about this at all. I know I would be pretty pissed off as well...whoever did it may of done it with the right intentions but to me it is still stealing and is wrong.


This is just my opinion on this "leak".
I believe BHB released the photo themselves. This way they can see the public reaction before they do release
photos. They then can address the public accordingly. these guys are not on top of the industry 'cause they're stupid.
Of coarse this is just my thoughts.......

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## Xaila

> This is just my opinion on this "leak".
> I believe BHB released the photo themselves. This way they can see the public reaction before they do release
> photos. They then can address the public accordingly. these guys are not on top of the industry 'cause they're stupid.
> Of coarse this is just my thoughts.......


I think there's a mole in BHB...   :Surprised:

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## Pythonfriend

BHB is dropping the information out piece by piece.

for example, i heared from different sources that Mike Wilbanks purchased some scaleless heads. then i heared ELSEWHERE that he purchased 3 of them, for like 60000-70000 a piece.

then there was a skype interview a few days ago where Brian did show a scaleless hatchling live in the show. low resolution, laggy skype, but still, he showed it on camera. He also said he got offered 100000 dollars, but will keep them and raise them himself. in the same interview, when they were talking about something completely different, Brian "let it slip" that he recently sold a small group of BPs (he didnt say what exactly) for 210000 dollars.

piece the bits together and you come to a quite substantiated rumour based on like 3 or 4 different sources in different places that Mike Wilbanks purchased 3 scaleless heads for 70000 each and a total of 210000 dollars. and the fully scaleless are not for sale for now.

the leaked pics, who knows. Maybe they were taken as part of the skype interview were he showed them off? Maybe Brian allowed them to leak because he will show the scaleless live to the public at a reptile show? 

its kinda smart, we get news about these critters every 2 days or so. a picture there, an interview here, soon a reptile show which will bring tons of pictures. safe to say, belly shots will leak when he maybe lets people hold it and others take out their cellphones. 

i am reasonably certain there wont be any belly scales because it leaked just days before he will show them publicly, at which point it will certainly come out. also scaleless snakes with belly scales always have scales around the mouth and on the underside of the head. 


anyway, i see no secrecy. i see that stuff gets leaked in a way that the true enthusiasts (like this forum, like us) get to know stuff a few days before the wider public finds out. thats the pattern. we first heared about the scaleless with one initial picture just days before he put the egg cutting into a special snakebytesTV episode. now we have the post-1st-shed pics and some more details days before he drops the bomb and shows them live at a reptile show. and we know scaleless is not for sale, and scaleless heads go for 70000 a piece. 

just like with blockbuster movies, its the typical pattern of early announcement, then sneek peek, then trailer, some behind-the-scenes stuff, interviews, a making of, pre-viewings for insiders, and then grand premiere. These leaks imply anything other than secrecy; they are designed to get us hot for the grand premiere. and judging by this thread, its totally working  :Very Happy:

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## anatess

> So, here's a stupid question.. Do these guys shed?


We wouldn't know until Brian tells us.

But all scaleless snakes that have been observed do shed.  They do not lack a beta-keratin layer.  Rather, they have a thin beta-keratin layer that the snake sheds as it grows.  The shed does not stretch like regular shed scales.

Interestingly, the scaleless snakes that have been observed has a thicker than normal alpha-keratin layer (skin).  Researchers are attributing this to the reason why adult scaleless gopher snakes in the wild are not showing more damage/injury than their scaled counterparts.

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_kat_black181_ (10-05-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (10-07-2013),Surrealle (10-05-2013)

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## 4theSNAKElady

More than anything, i just wanna...i just feel it  :Very Happy: 

sent from my incubator

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## Pythonfriend

just found this on facebook, a post from BHB Reptiles linking the image that started this thread:





> I'm happy to conform that the "leaked" scaleless Ball Python pic was in  fact our male Scaleless. Although I didn't want the pic to be out there  until the Herp Nation article came out in a week or so, I am at least happy that everyone had a chance to enjoy it as much as we have. 
>  A few things... Yes it is a real snake and not clay. No, they do not  have Heat Pits, but you can see the heat receptors and I'm sure they can  still sense heat. They act completely normal and move just like any  other snake. They do still have a layer of skin, so it DOES still have  eyecaps. And yes they feel so SOFT!
>  I'm so excited about this  project and you can hear and read the entire story with a LOAD of  awesome pictures of the two of them in the Herp Nation article coming  out soon! Let me know what you think about them?


nothing new, really, but its some official confirmation. eye caps are fine, heat pits gone. and he says they move and act normal  :Smile:

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_bad-one_ (10-05-2013),_cory9oh4_ (10-05-2013)

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## rlditmars

> Now If we were still in youtube mode I would point out the underline parts  but we can leave that alone.
> 
> I just wonder why do you feel the animals we keep need to be ready to go prowling the wild? I wouldn't be surprised if the bright white lucy got picked off first in the wild before the scaleless snake. I think we can both agree most would likely not survive. I doubt my husky would make it very far in the wild and she's a lot closer to the wild wolf than most dogs people own. 
> 
> However they do survive in captivity, which is where that line of ball pythons will be living for now on, they might as well forget about the wild. We don't know of any problems that will effect the scaleless ability to survive in captivity, it's all speculation right now. I'm sure it won't take long for anything to come to light, brian made this a very public thing and people want answers.
> 
> Maybe my optimism stems from the fact I have scaleless breaded dragon (silkbacks) and a hairless cat (sphinx). The dragon does require lotion every so often to keep his skin from drying out, but besides that he lives life normal as any other dragon, besides the silence of the lambs jokes made. The cat I could argue being hairless actually enhance the survival of the animal in captivity, less allergies and a cat that is more likely to socialize instead of the stereotypical screw you attitude of a normal house cat.
> 
> There just seems to be so much emphasis on the animals ability to survive in the wild, which shouldn't that be our last concern?


I am not sure what your reference to you tube mode is, (forgive me I'm an old man) but I see that you have underlined the two lines where I have referenced "characteristic". By definition a characteristic is something that is typical of a person, place, or things. Scales are a characteristic of snakes as snakes typically have scales. They would also be a characteristic of fish for the same reason. This is not to say every snake and fish has scales, but most do. Scaleless is not a characteristic because most snakes have scales and therefore is not typical. It is however, a mutation. Further down this thread someone points out that all morphs are mutations to which I whole heartedly agree. A mutation is a simple variation from the norm. A mutation may be any of the three following scenarios. It may be an enhancement. It may be of nuetral order or insignificant. It may impact negatively the species. Those mutations that enhance, tend to remain and progress or evolve. Over time, if they have a positive enough impact they may even become a characteristic. Those that are neutral have no significant impact either way and may or may not continue. But those that impact negatively usually are selected for elimination one way or another and only reoccur as randomly as the first example. 

I will agree that many of these mutations (paint jobs) that we all love would probably have trouble surviving in the wild as they would be preyed upon easily because they are highly visible. You support your position by saying it is about how they survive in captivity. Since we are talking about captive snakes I will agree. Rather then referencing the wild, I probaly should have said instead, "without special assistance or provision". I consider the same point for captivity. Aside from being much more visible, most morphs can still move, locate prey, and thrive just like their wild counterparts. They require no special assistance or provision other then to be givien access to food and a suitable place (habitat) to exist. That is the distinction I am trying to make.

Yes, I am making an assumption and perhaps prematurely, that there may be some impairment with the scaleless snake's ability to sense heat and move normally. Time will prove me right or wrong. But if it proves true that the scaleless snake has difficulty moving normally or cannot sense heat for the purpose of locating prey, then it does diminish the animal and by that I mean it takes away from that which makes it a ball python. Thats why I stated it is not a characteristic. It is not typical.  It is a defect. A while a defect is a mutation too, it is a mutation of the third kind. Meaning a mutation that negatively impacts the survivability in the wild or in captivity, without special assitance or provision. If this morph proves out to cause complications with the animals ability to perform its very basic functions, then I will have trouble with it.  And because I am who I am, I will struggle with understanding how others wouldn't feel the same. But I know there are those that won't and that's life. I am not passing judgement, and I do not feel like I am standing on moral high ground. It is just how I feel about it and so I shared.

By the time I finished typing this, I didn't see the post above me that states most issues are normal. If that is the case then carry on and enjoy.

----------


## bigt0006

Wow cant believe that some people are freaking out over an animal morph. It will never be in the wild so surviving in the wild is not an issue. Also if it has any health issues im 100 percent sure brian will not breed it. He has said many times that the money is just a bonus to his bussiness his main motivation is his passion for the animals

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

----------

_Robyn@SYR_ (10-07-2013)

----------


## Solarsoldier001

It's so clean and pretty. I can't wait for a year to go by so I can see this little one bigger XD 


Sent from iPhone 5 using tapatalk  :Smile:

----------


## Rickys_Reptiles

I am not a fan of these being sold already. IMHO the scaleless should be raised, and bred, for at least 2 generations before any are sold. How does anyone know that these snakes don't develop problems as they age? How does anyone know if they can reproduce safely? what if every 5th egg is born without a patch of skin and every 10th is kinked?!?

It seems irresponsible to assume that just because 2 were born healthy that they are now good to be sold.

----------


## OhhWatALoser

> I am not a fan of these being sold already. IMHO the scaleless should be raised, and bred, for at least 2 generations before any are sold. How does anyone know that these snakes don't develop problems as they age? How does anyone know if they can reproduce safely? what if every 5th egg is born without a patch of skin and every 10th is kinked?!?
> 
> It seems irresponsible to assume that just because 2 were born healthy that they are now good to be sold.


I'm sure Mike is not completely ignorant about this and a risk he is willing to take. You could apply that same mind set to any morph though. Cutting edge projects have their risks.

----------

_Robyn@SYR_ (10-07-2013)

----------


## Xaila

I don't think either of the fully scaleless have been sold.  It's a 1.1 pair from what I've heard.   And I don't think the scaleless heads are being sold to just any Tom, :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:, or Harry...the current pricetag is just too prohibitive for that.

----------

_Anya_ (10-07-2013)

----------


## Surrealle

> ..being sold to just any Tom, :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:, or Harry...


*snicker*

----------

_Anya_ (10-07-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (10-15-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (10-07-2013)

----------


## ninerballs

:Bowdown:  :Eyepopping: :

----------


## Xaila

> *snicker*


Haha...yes, seems the censor did not like me using the nickname of Richard there.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Buttons

> I am not a fan of these being sold already. IMHO the scaleless should be raised, and bred, for at least 2 generations before any are sold. How does anyone know that these snakes don't develop problems as they age? How does anyone know if they can reproduce safely? what if every 5th egg is born without a patch of skin and every 10th is kinked?!?
> 
> It seems irresponsible to assume that just because 2 were born healthy that they are now good to be sold.


It's irresponsible to assume they've already been sold.

----------


## Kodieh

> I'm sure Mike is not completely ignorant about this and a risk he is willing to take. You could apply that same mind set to any morph though. Cutting edge projects have their risks.


You're also talking about a man who bought into Banana's early on and made a couple million off of them. So, if he spent a hundred grand and loses, it's not that bad for him. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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## Pythonfriend

thats what i dont like about bad word filters or lists of words you may not say.  they never give you the actual list! 

that aside, if the fully scaleless does not work out, i guess the money can be recouped with just scaleless heads?

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

> thats what i dont like about bad word filters or lists of words you may not say.  they never give you the actual list! 
> 
> that aside, if the fully scaleless does not work out, i guess the money can be recouped with just scaleless heads?


i don't think people will really see the scaleless heads appealing. people will just use them to make the full scaleless.

----------


## dr del

Since I haven't see this posted yet - the scalless is about 28:30 in

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (10-15-2013),_Inarikins_ (10-06-2013),mvptext1 (10-06-2013),Xaila (10-06-2013)

----------


## TurkeyPython

Does it have eye caps? How does it shed?

----------


## Inarikins

Yes and it sheds just like any other scaleless snake does. Just one smooth piece of skin, without the scales. Brian describes it in the video on the previous page - says it's like peeled off sunburn. Which makes sense.

----------


## TurkeyPython

> Yes and it sheds just like any other scaleless snake does. Just one smooth piece of skin, without the scales. Brian describes it in the video on the previous page - says it's like peeled off sunburn. Which makes sense.


Creepy
 0.o

----------


## Robyn@SYR

> The big guys that invest this kind of $$, will always hide the problems until they recover the $$.
> Money is always first with these guys.





> The big breeders were well aware of the issues surrounding them, but was kept that quiet. All they care about is money, forget the snakes well being.


The scaleless Ball python is not for everyone. And that is ok. Debate and discussion is also ok.

But I want to make a point on these quotes above. I understand these types of issues are emotional, and elicit strong feelings, but these kinds of statements are ignorant. 

Have you guys BEEN one of the "big guys"? It is so amazingly difficult to run a big company, even just by reptile world standards. It is a daily challenge. Folks don't get into the industry, and have success, to make money. Folks like BHB and Constrictors Unlimited have built a long track record. Their work and effort is based on passion for the animals. It helps if they are strong businessmen, but a lot of these types of guys have spent years spinning their wheels, digging dumb holes (that they then have to get back out of), and/or making slow steady progress through lots of hard work in order to be where they are today, to be classified, often derisively, as a "big breeder".

Mike Wilbanks in particular joined our TRR talk at NARBC Anaheim, discussing the evolution of the industry, and part of his story was the years of struggle to gain a foothold in the industry, selling dollars worth while the guy next to him sold tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. He persevered, over years, and built a fine reputation and a significant company.

There are "bad guys" in the industry, but carelessly tossing folks like BHB and Mike Wilbanks into such a group, much less "all of them" is ignorant, wrong, and disrespectful.

I have heard the trials and tribulations, the frustrations of these particular "big guys" first hand. I have heard it from others as well. I am grateful that they have the drive and passion to keep their nose down and keep doing the best job they possibly can.

(I also have first hand experience with these issues, so it is easy to empathize, and it makes such negative blanket statements so hurtful to hear)

----------

4theSNAKElady (10-10-2013),ballbreeder (10-07-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (10-15-2013),Crazymonkee (10-12-2013),_DNACurtusK_ (10-07-2013),dr del (10-08-2013),_joebad976_ (10-07-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-08-2013),Pythonfriend (10-07-2013),_Raven01_ (10-07-2013),_satomi325_ (10-07-2013),vankmen. (10-10-2013),Xaila (10-07-2013)

----------


## snakeman13

> The scaleless Ball python is not for everyone. And that is ok. Debate and discussion is also ok.
> 
> But I want to make a point on these quotes above. I understand these types of issues are emotional, and elicit strong feelings, but these kinds of statements are ignorant. 
> 
> Have you guys BEEN one of the "big guys"? It is so amazingly difficult to run a big company, even just by reptile world standards. It is a daily challenge. Folks don't get into the industry, and have success, to make money. Folks like BHB and Constrictors Unlimited have built a long track record. Their work and effort is based on passion for the animals. It helps if they are strong businessmen, but a lot of these types of guys have spent years spinning their wheels, digging dumb holes (that they then have to get back out of), and/or making slow steady progress through lots of hard work in order to be where they are today, to be classified, often derisively, as a "big breeder".
> 
> Mike Wilbanks in particular joined our TRR talk at NARBC Anaheim, discussing the evolution of the industry, and part of his story was the years of struggle to gain a foothold in the industry, selling dollars worth while the guy next to him sold tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. He persevered, over years, and built a fine reputation and a significant company.
> 
> There are "bad guys" in the industry, but carelessly tossing folks like BHB and Mike Wilbanks into such a group, much less "all of them" is ignorant, wrong, and disrespectful.
> ...


I would totally agree with you if you could provide evidence of just one thing.
Has one of these issues ever been let known to the public, before they were mass sold to the public???
Or have all the problems been admitted after the recovery of the investment?
Remember.....I only need one.
I am also not talking minor, even the Carmel kinking was kept quiet.

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## spider_ball

Would love to see videos of these guys crawling around and eating. And maybe purchase one in 5-10+ yrs when they are less than $1000 
Most of all....I want to touch it. Looks like it would feel similar to my crested gecko.

----------


## DNACurtusK

> The scaleless Ball python is not for everyone. And that is ok. Debate and discussion is also ok.
> 
> But I want to make a point on these quotes above. I understand these types of issues are emotional, and elicit strong feelings, but these kinds of statements are ignorant. 
> 
> Have you guys BEEN one of the "big guys"? It is so amazingly difficult to run a big company, even just by reptile world standards. It is a daily challenge. Folks don't get into the industry, and have success, to make money. Folks like BHB and Constrictors Unlimited have built a long track record. Their work and effort is based on passion for the animals. It helps if they are strong businessmen, but a lot of these types of guys have spent years spinning their wheels, digging dumb holes (that they then have to get back out of), and/or making slow steady progress through lots of hard work in order to be where they are today, to be classified, often derisively, as a "big breeder".
> 
> Mike Wilbanks in particular joined our TRR talk at NARBC Anaheim, discussing the evolution of the industry, and part of his story was the years of struggle to gain a foothold in the industry, selling dollars worth while the guy next to him sold tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. He persevered, over years, and built a fine reputation and a significant company.
> 
> There are "bad guys" in the industry, but carelessly tossing folks like BHB and Mike Wilbanks into such a group, much less "all of them" is ignorant, wrong, and disrespectful.
> ...


Great post. I would have to say, Brian at BHB has got to be one of the most passionate folks out there in the reptile business. It's a pretty harsh opinion to say he's just a "big breeder in it for the money"......

If the snakes thrive, so be it! Would they survive in the wild? Not sure, but there have been scaleless specimens of snakes found in the wild before. Can't pull the "it isn't natural" card....sorry but....it isn't any less natural than us keepers that keep our snakes in captivity in plastic tubs, lol. All these beautiful bright morphs likely wouldn't make it long 'in the wild' either. Some spiders have  terrible wobbles...yet folks continue to breed spiders anyway. If his scaleless babies eat well and thrive, then good for them!

----------


## Robyn@SYR

> I would totally agree with you if you could provide evidence of just one thing.
> Has one of these issues ever been let known to the public, before they were mass sold to the public???
> Or have all the problems been admitted after the recovery of the investment?
> Remember.....I only need one.
> I am also not talking minor, even the Carmel kinking was kept quiet.


"Money is always first with these guys."

That was YOUR statement. And you want me to disprove it? Better for you to actually show proof of such a negative claim, as it is your claim. 

If you said "Joe Smith Reptiles is a jerk, money is always first with him" then I would have to consider who Joe Smith is. You are lumping a large group of "big breeders" into this greedy group, and in this case, specifically implying BHB is in the group.

I'm saying that is incorrect, and unfair.

Lots of projects have turned out to be busts and not promoted. Breeders have failures all the time. You didn't hear about them because they were failures.

----------

_Coopers Constrictors_ (10-07-2013)

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## Borgy76

Very controversial subject.  Would it be any different if it were a science lab doing the breeding?  All I see are a lot of "ifs" and "maybes".  If scaleless isn't your thing then why is there any issue at all?

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_Kodieh_ (10-07-2013)

----------


## OhhWatALoser

> I would totally agree with you if you could provide evidence of just one thing.
> Has one of these issues ever been let known to the public, before they were mass sold to the public???
> Or have all the problems been admitted after the recovery of the investment?
> Remember.....I only need one.
> I am also not talking minor, even the Carmel kinking was kept quiet.


Champaign wobble was never a secret and the lethal super was posted the day it was discovered.

----------


## Archimedes

To deviate slightly from the debate at hand, what precisely is the difference between the Scaleless that Brian produced and the Derma from several years ago? Other than the Derma having a smattering of scales along its flanks, these appear to have the same anotomical irregularities that the Derma did. Is there an absolute difference between the two lines of animal? And what exactly happened to the Derma? I know it was crazy-big in the community, but I haven't found a thread detailing the situation clearly. Not looking for debate, just honest straightforward answers.


Sent from my cool hide

----------


## 4theSNAKElady

> The scaleless Ball python is not for everyone. And that is ok. Debate and discussion is also ok.
> 
> But I want to make a point on these quotes above. I understand these types of issues are emotional, and elicit strong feelings, but these kinds of statements are ignorant. 
> 
> Have you guys BEEN one of the "big guys"? It is so amazingly difficult to run a big company, even just by reptile world standards. It is a daily challenge. Folks don't get into the industry, and have success, to make money. Folks like BHB and Constrictors Unlimited have built a long track record. Their work and effort is based on passion for the animals. It helps if they are strong businessmen, but a lot of these types of guys have spent years spinning their wheels, digging dumb holes (that they then have to get back out of), and/or making slow steady progress through lots of hard work in order to be where they are today, to be classified, often derisively, as a "big breeder".
> 
> Mike Wilbanks in particular joined our TRR talk at NARBC Anaheim, discussing the evolution of the industry, and part of his story was the years of struggle to gain a foothold in the industry, selling dollars worth while the guy next to him sold tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands. He persevered, over years, and built a fine reputation and a significant company.
> 
> There are "bad guys" in the industry, but carelessly tossing folks like BHB and Mike Wilbanks into such a group, much less "all of them" is ignorant, wrong, and disrespectful.
> ...


Very well said Robyn!!! Very well said.  :Good Job: 

sent from my incubator

----------


## Pythonfriend

> To deviate slightly from the debate at hand, what precisely is the difference between the Scaleless that Brian produced and the Derma from several years ago? Other than the Derma having a smattering of scales along its flanks, these appear to have the same anotomical irregularities that the Derma did. Is there an absolute difference between the two lines of animal? And what exactly happened to the Derma? I know it was crazy-big in the community, but I haven't found a thread detailing the situation clearly. Not looking for debate, just honest straightforward answers.


one difference is that in the context of the deme ball, there was never a mention of scaleles head BPs. the ones from BHB are produced by scaleless head to scaleless head, for 25% fully scaleless. Also the ones from BHB dont have random scales scattered anywhere, they are 100% scaleless. So i think its different genes at work.

About what happened to the deme ball, i didnt hear anything too specific, what i gather is that something happened to the breeder and the whole collection was lost. we dont even know if the deme was a random singularity or something genetic.

----------


## Xaila

> one difference is that in the context of the deme ball, there was never a mention of scaleles head BPs. the ones from BHB are produced by scaleless head to scaleless head, for 25% fully scaleless. Also the ones from BHB dont have random scales scattered anywhere, they are 100% scaleless. So i think its different genes at work.
> 
> About what happened to the deme ball, i didnt hear anything too specific, what i gather is that something happened to the breeder and the whole collection was lost. we dont even know if the deme was a random singularity or something genetic.


What I've heard is that the original owner of the Derma Ball went to jail and most of his collection died, including the Derma and all of its offspring.  The 'Purple Haze' in 2007 died before breeding.

Apparently these guys are eating well, judging by some of Brian's Facebook and YouTube comments to people recently.   :Smile:

----------


## Pythonfriend

oh and....    they deserve some credit, after all, this is where the pictures leaked:

http://www.herpnation.com/hn-gallery...zine-issue-14/ 

one of the leaked images is on the title of this issue of Herp Nation Magazine. Scaleless BPs will also be a big topic in this issue of the magazine.

----------


## Robyn@SYR

That is actually not the source of the leak : )

Brian sent a pic to a friend of his that posted it to their Twitter and tagged him, not realizing what a big deal it would be in the reptile community, and that the pics were still unreleased : )

----------


## Crotalids

Passionate you say? 



I don't think so.

----------


## OhhWatALoser

> Passionate you say? 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so.


Read about his snake "Satan" and why that one snake is kept in a tight cage while his other big ones are kept in the bigger caging right to the left of that rack.

----------

_bigt0006_ (10-12-2013),Bugmom (10-12-2013)

----------


## Bugmom

> Passionate you say? 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think so.


You should probably not criticize someone when you don't know the "why" behind what they do. Ignorance is not, in fact, bliss, when it's used in an attempt to harm or discredit others.

----------

_bigt0006_ (10-12-2013)

----------


## Crotalids

What about these two? Do they also have feeding issues? 

What a load of rubbish. Commonly an excuse used by people who cannot be bothered to give adequately sized enclosures to their snakes "Oh it won't feed when it's in a bigger one". 

Of course it won't, if all you do is place the snake in a big enclosure with a water bowl. But of course, business comes first, forget that you're keeping snakes in sub par conditions. 

I keep all my snakes in large enclosures, guess what, they all feed. Including when my Malayan pit vipers were born, the female fed in a 3ft enclosure even when she was 3 inches - because my enclosure was set up correctly. 

Any snake will feed, in any enclosure, if you're prepared to set it up correctly and provide what it needs to feel secure.

----------


## anatess

> What about these two? Do they also have feeding issues?


Satan has feeding issues?  I thought he's one to eat Brian if given half the chance.  He sure tries everyday when he goes for his daily exercise.

----------


## Crotalids

> Satan has feeding issues?  I thought he's one to eat Brian if given half the chance.  He sure tries everyday when he goes for his daily exercise.


I think that's why he "apparently" keeps Satan in such a small enclosure, because he won't eat if he's in a larger one.

----------


## spider_ball

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard....a snake wont feed in a larger enclosure. I do not have a ton of experience, but the 2 bps I owned in the past were purchased small (less than 12inches) and went directly into a 4 foot long tank and I never had feeding issues with either one of them.
Those poor snakes.....that looks like animal abuse to me. I'm all for simple enclosures, but they should be an appropriate size!

----------


## Expensive hobby

Ya I like Brian, I like snakebytes, and I love how much knowledge he shares with the community, but those enclosures are WAY to small for snakes of that size. Those huge freedom breeder racks are nice, and ya they are like $2k a piece, and he probably has $30k worth of them just in that row alone, but for that kind of money he could have housed them in something a little more appropriate. How does a snake thermoregulate when it is as big as the enclosure it's housed in?


Sent From an Enclosure

----------


## Bugmom

He moved Satan into a large enclosure. Satan would strike at the glass/plexiglass/whatever the front is made of, and was hurting herself over and over in addition to not eating.

Is THAT better for her? 

I sure don't let MY animals harm themselves because I insist that I know what they need better than they do, and stick with what clearly doesn't work so that some internet cowboy can't come along and try to hang me for not doing it his stubborn way.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## Crotalids

> He moved Satan into a large enclosure. Satan would strike at the glass/plexiglass/whatever the front is made of, and was hurting herself over and over in addition to not eating.
> 
> Is THAT better for her? 
> 
> I sure don't let MY animals harm themselves because I insist that I know what they need better than they do, and stick with what clearly doesn't work so that some internet cowboy can't come along and try to hang me for not doing it his stubborn way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2


Probably because 'Satan' was stressed out, he probably put her into a larger tank with no hides just a water bowl. 

You carry on brown nosing and thinking that he is a god. You're clearly deluded if you think there is any good reason to keep any animal that large, in an enclosure that size. 

Irrespective of Satan's case, what about the other two pictures i posted? Didn't have anything to say about them? Or i suppose they also 'smash their head against the glass'.

----------


## Bugmom

I'm not speaking on the other two because I'm not aware of why, specifically, those two are in those enclosures. 

If you have an issue with Brain, why don't you take it up with Brian? He's quite approachable. 

Unless your style is anonymously criticizing people from the safety of an internet forum, in which case, carry on. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2

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## Crotalids

> I'm not speaking on the other two because I'm not aware of why, specifically, those two are in those enclosures. 
> 
> If you have an issue with Brain, why don't you take it up with Brian? He's quite approachable. 
> 
> Unless your style is anonymously criticizing people from the safety of an internet forum, in which case, carry on. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk 2


There is no reason any of the big snakes should be in an enclosure that size, it's that simple. If the person who kept them cared about the snakes and is 'passionate' they would not keep them in those enclosures. 

If it is true that she was hitting her head against the front, it's quite simple, cover it, or use a viv that has no see through front - where is all this masses amount of knowledge he has? It's a load of rubbish to be honest. Besides it's evident he is talking out of his arse, as all his other big snakes are in similar sized enclosures. 

What's the point? It's not a private keeper who would be willing to change his ways to improve the conditions his animals are in. This is a business man we are talking about, money comes first - evidently. Maximise the amount of snakes by keeping them in the smallest enclosures you can. I'm surprised so many people stick up for him on with regards to this, it's disgusting.

----------


## Kodieh

It's none of your business, and you're not keeping the animal. It's as simple as that. Email or call BHB about the issue and complain. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

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## satomi325

> That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard....a snake wont feed in a larger enclosure.


Actually its quite common for a snake to go off feed if the enclosure is too large and too open.

Open spaces make them insecure. Insecurity causes stress. An extremely stressed animal won't eat. (In many species really. Not just reptiles...)




> Ya I like Brian, I like snakebytes, and I love how much knowledge he shares with the community, but those enclosures are WAY to small for snakes of that size. Those huge freedom breeder racks are nice, and ya they are like $2k a piece, and he probably has $30k worth of them just in that row alone, but for that kind of money he could have housed them in something a little more appropriate. How does a snake thermoregulate when it is as big as the enclosure it's housed in?
> 
> 
> Sent From an Enclosure


Those enclosures are boa enclosures. I also agree that its too small for a retic.

BHB has heated ambient temps and no hotspots. That's why the animals don't need to thermoregulate. Many people have heated rooms to 85 degree for ball pythons, for example, with no hotspot. 
When you have a lot of animals, its safer and more efficient to heat the room than give everyone their own heat source. Less of a fire and electrical hazard.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

----------


## 4theSNAKElady

Wow....i thought we were talking about the scaleless bp??? At least thats what the thread title lead me to believe....:what:

sent from my incubator

----------


## Pythonfriend

oh no.....   the old jealousy & greed-driven discussion once again rears its ugly head. 

some people just dont get correlation and causation differentiated due to some well-known hypnotic effects of 6- and 7-digit-numbers followed by a dollar sign.

They dont understand how someone can make millions while not being in it primarily for the money. So they get at it with that preconceived notion that this is impossible, that someone who is monetarily successful must be in it for the money because alternatives are impossible.

With that preconceived notion deeply rooted in the belief-system, evidence to the contrary gets dismissed. (for example, if its all about the money, why is Satan still alive? A super-agressive behaviorally challenged giant snake that cannot be bred and cannot be re-homed because it cannot be tamed. Yeah, makes total economic sense to house it indefinitely instead of euthanizing it.)

I could, again, list some more indications that show that Brian is not in it for the money. But it wont convince these that already made up their mind. 

Some people, for example, just cannot be convinced that Bill Gates is a good guy and not greedy. That his children will only get 10 million dollars each and that over 99.5% of the wealth of Bill and Melinda Gates will go towards charity when they die and that tens of billions (yes with a B) were already given to charity doesnt matter. For some people, facts like that just dont compute.

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Bugmom (10-12-2013),_DNACurtusK_ (10-12-2013)

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## Xaila

Hasn't the whole controversy over Satan's enclosure been played out to death last year?  Why do you have to dreg it up again when it's completely off topic to this post?

How about instead of taking petty pot-shots and making wild claims about someone you've obviously never met or spoken to, why don't you write a reasonable email to the man with your concerns?  No?  That's right, it's much easier to bash and name-call behind an anonymous internet handle in a place he'll probably never read it.  This is the kind of nasty, elitist attitude I hate about the herp community.  Instead of actually trying to be helpful it's all about needing to feel superior and putting others down.  

For a supposed greedy only-cares-about-profits dude, Brian spends an awful lot of time helping out new reptile keepers who have never spent a cent with him.  It's one of the big reasons I get rather defensive about the bashing.  I'm willing to bet none of the 'haters' would be willing to constantly bend over backwards to help people.  It's much more fun to stroke their own ego I guess.

Oh, and Satan isn't even in that enclosure anymore AFAIK.  Last I saw from SBtv she's in something else.  I'd go look but I'm on mobile.

That being said, I've been seeing a bunch of awesome pics of people with the scaleless hatchling at Tinley.  Anyone seen it for themselves yet?  People seem to like it.

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## Pythonfriend

post / link some pictures here please   :Smile: 


According to facebook, the scaleless BP got introduced to the public today. There should be tons of images and footage out there now!

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## NYHC4LIFE8899

Does it shed

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## satomi325

> Does it shed


Yes.


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## NYHC4LIFE8899

Figured,wanted to ask anyway,cause you never know


> Yes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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## Xaila

Scaleless snakes shed like normal snakes, but its all smooth and weird.  It was described a bit like sunburn peel.

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## satomi325

Its probably similar to lizard or gecko sheds. 

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## DNACurtusK

I bet out of all the people that have negative and distasteful things to say about Brian.....NONE will have the balls to even say anything to the man face to face at a show. All these internet crap talkers on here....so sad. 

That man will forget more about reptiles than a lot of the ones talking crap will ever know in their lifetime. 

Anyhow, I myself can't wait to see the scaleless in person!

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## MarkS

I know a guy who used to have a pair of scaleless water snakes, they did need a little help shedding but otherwise were fine in every other way.  I believe that both snakes lost the tips of their tales due to stuck sheds cutting off the circulation.

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## Gerardo

I saw the scaleless BP today in Tinley. It looks great in person.

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## adamsky27

> I saw the scaleless BP today in Tinley. It looks great in person.


I couldn't believe it when I saw it. I spoke to Brian about it, they are both eating and doing fine so far. Imagine the banana scaleless?! Lavender albino pied scaleless? It's going to get crazy, I can't wait to see it.

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## 4theSNAKElady

Was he letting people hold it? I wanna know what it feels like...

sent from my incubator

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## 3skulls

I saw it yesterday. Kinda looks cool but I'm not a fan.

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## anatess

Where are the pictures, people!

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## 3skulls

I think there are a couple of shots of the camera but I haven't uploaded them yet. He was still in the display rack. Left when he was getting it out because I figured everyone would swarm :p

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## adamsky27

> Where are the pictures, people!


I took this one while I was there. It looked like some professional photos were being taken too. They will probably be posted soon.

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_anatess_ (10-13-2013),MarkS (10-13-2013)

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## Gerardo

> Was he letting people hold it? I wanna know what it feels like...
> 
> sent from my incubator


I didnt see anybody holding it. I also want to know what it feels like.

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## 4theSNAKElady

Sweet! And i bet everyone was swarming :p

sent from my incubator

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## Emilio

> I took this one while I was there. It looked like some professional photos were being taken too. They will probably be posted soon.


Amazing almost looks fake.

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## SlitherinSisters

> Was he letting people hold it? I wanna know what it feels like...
> 
> sent from my incubator


It feels really weird! It looks/feels like shark/dolphin skin. Wrinkly, rubbery, and weird. I can't describe it any better than that!

BHB brought the male scaleless and scaleless hets which were scaleless heads. I have pictures of them on my camera I can put up once I get home.

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_Rickys_Reptiles_ (10-15-2013)

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## 4theSNAKElady

Wow...did it feel anything like people skin??? And soooo awesome that he let you touch it!!! Id die if i met him and he let me touch it! I still have yet to meet Brian  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

sent from my incubator

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## mainbutter

> Id die if i met him and he let me touch it! I still have yet to meet Brian


I haven't posted on this site in months I think, but for some reason thought to check it out tonight.  I'm glad I did, so I could reply to this post one post as such:

"lol."

Do we still have the out of context thread somewhere?

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MarkS (10-15-2013)

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## Bluebonnet Herp

I want to know if it still has eyecaps and if it can still move properly.
Boas go without heat pits, and so do woma pythons as well as scaleless rattlesnakes. Considering some morphs are actually _blind_ (super lesser BEL anyone?) I don't see that huge of a deal there. (I believe the skin on that section of the face is what actually picks up the infrared, therefor until it's tested in the lab, I wouldn't rule it out.)

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## 4theSNAKElady

> I haven't posted on this site in months I think, but for some reason thought to check it out tonight.  I'm glad I did, so I could reply to this post one post as such:
> 
> "lol."
> 
> Do we still have the out of context thread somewhere?


Lol....yeah, that thread is still layin around somewhere.. :Wink: 

sent from my incubator

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## SlitherinSisters

He had it out before the show so we got to hold/touch/etc. 

Brain only brought the male. There was a male and a female 


Cropped/zoomed. It still has a handful of scales here and there


And the hets apparently. Scaleless heads

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