# Site General > Pet Related Laws & Legislation >  So the UK Really Banned Spider Balls

## MasonC2K

Correction to title: Should be IHS in the UK 




This is sad. They should know better.

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*Bogertophis* (02-09-2019),_MarkL1561_ (02-09-2019)

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## Bogertophis

Sorry but it really doesn't ruin my day (while I know it's a "slippery slope") and Brian really needs to drink a LOT LESS COFFEE.   :Taz:   Just sayin'...

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks it's lousy to breed animals with known neurological impairment.

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_BR8080_ (02-19-2019),Craiga 01453 (02-10-2019),_Crowfingers_ (03-12-2019),e_nigma (02-09-2019),Foxy (02-09-2019),_Jbabycsx_ (02-09-2019),_JRLongton_ (02-11-2019),_Toad37_ (02-09-2019),Udon (04-10-2020)

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## royalreilly

Ehh... I mean he's spreading false info by making it sound like the UK itself has banned spider balls. Yeah he corrects it, but only in his pinned comment. Nowhere in the video or title did he feel the need to change what he said.

I personally stand more on the side of not supporting the breeding of spiders. I would never buy one to support breeders making more of them. I understand and respect people who want them to continue to be bred. But for the most part the only people I see getting really upset and defensive about it are breeders who get a lot of money from breeding spider morphs.

I don't think it's fair to the snakes to keep breeding them if they have a neurological defect. We have no honest way of telling how it really affects them, if they're suffering at all, etc. because we can't ask them. I don't think it's worth is for a pretty pattern when there's so many other morphs out there.

It's just my opinion though. I think they're very beautiful snakes and I wouldn't mind even owning one, as long as it was a re-home / a rescue and didn't support the breeding of more of them.

I think this video is a great example of how a wobble can actually affect the livelihood of a snake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HYaQjF74_I I know not all spiders have a wobble this bad, but this just breaks my heart to watch, and after seeing videos like this I simple don't want to support the breeding of spiders, because there's always a chance they'll end up like this.

And I think this video by Amazing Animal Adventures does a great job of explaining the wobble and the problems with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uflWWZhmoYM

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*Bogertophis* (02-09-2019),_Crowfingers_ (03-12-2019),_Ditto_ (02-09-2019),e_nigma (02-09-2019),_gunkle_ (02-09-2019),Udon (04-10-2020)

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## MarkL1561

> Sorry but it really doesn't ruin my day (while I know it's a "slippery slope") and Brian really needs to drink a LOT LESS COFFEE.    Just sayin'...
> 
> I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks it's lousy to breed animals with known neurological impairment.


Yeah but having politicians make a decision that greatly impacts the hobby and its economy based on ignorant opinion is not good policy. If you dont agree with it fine, dont tell others what they can think and do. I have a adult male bumblebee and Ive never even noticed a wobble. These animals are perfectly healthy. What about English bulldogs? On average an owner spends around $5,000 a year on vet related bills. They have eye, skin, hip, and stomach issues. They also have issues with seizures as well. So should we ban bulldogs as well?


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_FollowTheSun_ (02-09-2019),_the_rotten1_ (02-10-2019)

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## gunkle

> Ehh... I mean he's spreading false info by making it sound like the UK itself has banned spider balls. Yeah he corrects it, but only in his pinned comment. Nowhere in the video or title did he feel the need to change what he said.
> 
> I personally stand more on the side of not supporting the breeding of spiders. I would never buy one to support breeders making more of them. I understand and respect people who want them to continue to be bred. But for the most part the only people I see getting really upset and defensive about it are breeders who get a lot of money from breeding spider morphs.
> 
> I don't think it's fair to the snakes to keep breeding them if they have a neurological defect. We have no honest way of telling how it really affects them, if they're suffering at all, etc. because we can't ask them. I don't think it's worth is for a pretty pattern when there's so many other morphs out there.
> 
> It's just my opinion though. I think they're very beautiful snakes and I wouldn't mind even owning one, as long as it was a re-home / a rescue and didn't support the breeding of more of them.
> 
> I think this video is a great example of how a wobble can actually affect the livelihood of a snake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HYaQjF74_I I know not all spiders have a wobble this bad, but this just breaks my heart to watch, and after seeing videos like this I simple don't want to support the breeding of spiders, because there's always a chance they'll end up like this.
> ...


Wow. Didn't know this was even a thing. Guess I need to look into it more before purchasing my snakes. Thanks for the links.

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*Bogertophis* (02-09-2019)

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## RickyNY

Wow, that video. My banana spider is not bad at all, he strikes with accuracy. He'll twist his neck in a weird way but only when he's roaming around and looking at the top of his enclosure, otherwise he never does it.

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## Treeman

> Yeah but having politicians make a decision that greatly impacts the hobby and its economy based on ignorant opinion is not good policy. If you dont agree with it fine, dont tell others what they can think and do. I have a adult male bumblebee and Ive never even noticed a wobble. These animals are perfectly healthy. What about English bulldogs? On average an owner spends around $5,000 a year on vet related bills. They have eye, skin, hip, and stomach issues. They also have issues with seizures as well. So should we ban bulldogs as well?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


However, I don't think its a politician's "ignorant opinion".  As shown by the other posters above, even experienced keepers have reservations about keeping/breeding spiders.  If a politician banned retics for example because they thought they were dangerous and scary, that would be an ignorant opinion.  Me personally, I doubt I would keep a spider.  They look beautiful, and a lot of them don't show any neurological defects, but I don't think I could live with owning one and seeing it do some of the things I've seen some spiders do in videos.

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*Bogertophis* (02-09-2019),e_nigma (02-09-2019)

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## Sunnieskys

Brian doesn't drink coffee or drink FYI lol. 

I agree with brian that it should be up to the breeders. Most spiders are totally ok and live fine. Would I breed them..no.

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PitOnTheProwl (02-10-2019)

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## Godzilla78

I personally will not breed, buy or support any known defective DNA.  I ruled out the spider gene and some others completely from my collection.
Im sort of libertarian though, so I wont go so far as to support a ban.


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*Bogertophis* (02-09-2019)

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## gunkle

> I personally will not breed, buy or support any known defective DNA.  I ruled out the spider gene and some others completely from my collection.
> Im sort of libertarian though, so I wont go so far as to support a ban.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Curious what other morphs have issue so I can look into it to make an informed decision before I buy.


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## MR Snakes

I agree with Brian. Get the gubmint out of the reptile business!

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_MasonC2K_ (02-09-2019)

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## MasonC2K

My short thought on this: As he says, it should be up to the breeder and the industry to police itself. 

Long thoughts: I have a Spider. When I bred I had no problem breeding it. As long as it's taken care of properly they is no harm. How many dog and cat breeds have inherent genetic issues? Take the American Bulldog, A female physically cannot give birth. All births are by C-section. It's not stopping people from breeding or buying them. 

Great Danes have super short lifespans for a dog and usually have joint problems.

I could go on and on. 

Point is, this could become a government thing. And it shouldn't.

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_MarkL1561_ (02-09-2019),PitOnTheProwl (02-10-2019),_Sunnieskys_ (02-09-2019),_the_rotten1_ (02-10-2019)

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## Lord Sorril

Old News--policy started by the International Herpetological Society as of 2018  - No impact to the hobby: Anyone who wants a Spider morph in the UK can still get one legally.

Website:  http://www.ihs-web.org.uk/ihs-news.p...mnid=24&page=3

I don't take any advice from Brian B.

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*Bogertophis* (02-09-2019)

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## Godzilla78

I think breeding "defective" DNA dogs is just as bad or worse.  I wouldn't support that either.
However, my political views are libertarian, so I agree that the government should stay out of it, and people make their own choices.

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_Ditto_ (02-09-2019),_MasonC2K_ (02-11-2019)

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## Jellybeans

I so agree


> Sorry but it really doesn't ruin my day (while I know it's a "slippery slope") and Brian really needs to drink a LOT LESS COFFEE.    Just sayin'...
> 
> I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks it's lousy to breed animals with known neurological impairment.


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## Jellybeans

> Brian doesn't drink coffee or drink FYI lol. 
> 
> I agree with brian that it should be up to the breeders. Most spiders are totally ok and live fine. Would I breed them..no.


Yeah but then you have those breeders that don't really have very many morals just in it to make money and don't care about the welfare of the snake

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*Bogertophis* (02-10-2019)

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## MarkL1561

> Yeah but then you have those breeders that don't really have very many morals just in it to make money and don't care about the welfare of the snake
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


Yeah but then people become aware of this and dont purchase from said breeder potentially putting them out of business. The problem solves itself in a way. 


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## Jellybeans

> Yeah but then people become aware of this and dont purchase from said breeder potentially putting them out of business. The problem solves itself in a way. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But what happens to the snakes that aren't bought?

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## MarkL1561

> But what happens to the snakes that aren't bought?
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


What happens to dogs that arent bought? What about kids that arent adopted? Sadly the world isnt all sunshine and butterflies. There are always going to be animals that need homes unfortunately. Putting a ban on an animal isnt going to solve this unless everything is banned. If this problem troubles you I recommend adopting animals instead of purchasing from a breeder. 


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PitOnTheProwl (02-10-2019)

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## Jellybeans

I have always adopted and fostered and found.
If they would have put a ban on breeding certain breeds of dogs there wouldn't be so many of that breed in the shelters now.
But now it's too late.
I did however buy my ball python because you don't readily find them in shelters in Texas,  FORTUNATELY.
People have the choice if they want to reproduce ; animals don't therefore I hold people responsible for having children that they don't need or don't want and for breeding animals that they don't need or don't want
I'm pretty hardcore when it comes to animals I've seen some terrible terrible things.

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*Bogertophis* (02-10-2019)

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## Treeman

> My short thought on this: As he says, it should be up to the breeder and the industry to police itself. 
> 
> Long thoughts: I have a Spider. When I bred I had no problem breeding it. *As long as it's taken care of properly they is no harm.* How many dog and cat breeds have inherent genetic issues? Take the American Bulldog, A female physically cannot give birth. All births are by C-section. It's not stopping people from breeding or buying them. 
> 
> Great Danes have super short lifespans for a dog and usually have joint problems.
> 
> I could go on and on. 
> 
> Point is, this could become a government thing. And it shouldn't.


But that's just the thing.  Its a genetic defect.  Great care, great husbandry, and great feeding doesn't fix genetic neurologic problems.  I don't think it should become a government thing, as you said, I agree that the hobby and its breeders should do the responsible thing, whatever that person thinks that is, after studying the possible defects of a spider.

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## Danger noodles

Lots of hater of Brian for being enthusiastic, if only more people were so passionate about there life and job this would be a better world to live in. He does not drink or do drugs and people still hate on him all the time. I dont get it

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Champ299 (02-09-2019),_MarkL1561_ (02-09-2019),_MR Snakes_ (02-09-2019),PitOnTheProwl (02-10-2019)

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## MR Snakes

> Lots of hater of Brian for being enthusiastic, if only more people were so passionate about there life and job this would be a better world to live in. He does not drink or do drugs and people still hate on him all the time. I dont get it


It's because their heads are mostly hollow. Brian's a good guy.

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_Danger noodles_ (02-10-2019),_MarkL1561_ (02-10-2019),PitOnTheProwl (02-10-2019)

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## DandD

> Brian doesn't drink coffee or drink FYI lol. 
> 
> I agree with brian that it should be up to the breeders. Most spiders are totally ok and live fine. Would I breed them..no.


This is the interesting part about spiders. For you its perfectly fine to breed a snake with a known neurological defect but would u breed them,nope. It doesnt make sense to me.

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*Bogertophis* (02-10-2019)

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## Treeman

> This is the interesting part about spiders. For you its perfectly fine to breed a snake with a known neurological defect but would u breed them,nope. It doesnt make sense to me.


There's lots of things I think are fine to breed, but wouldn't want to breed myself! And that's for various reasons.  Like tarantulas or scorpions for example.  I think they're very neat and interesting, I enjoy looking at them for short periods of time, but I wouldn't want to breed them myself, because my interest in them doesn't go beyond looking at them through glass for a few minutes at a time, and definitely not into keeping them as a pet, let alone trying to handle and breed them.  This doesn't mean I would discourage anyone else from breeding them, as there are plenty of people that enjoy them and will care for them.  I think the reason many people have said that they are OK with others breeding spider Ball pythons but not they would not do it themselves is the feeling of responsibility.  Do I think spider bp's are cool and good looking?  Yes.  But do I want to have to deal with responsibility of breeding a snake with increased risk of neurological defect if something goes wrong?  Nope.  I'd rather breed a different morph so I have a lower risk of having to see snakes do what we see on those videos, and a lower risk of having to make the decision to euthanize if something does go wrong.  Of course, issues requiring the animals having to be euthanized can happen in all animal species.

And that's the decision a breeder has to make, if they want that responsibility.  If they are willing to take it on, sure.  But that's not something everyone wants to do knowing these risks.

So that's what I think it comes down to for a lot of people on here, and at least it does for me.  The responsibility of having bred spider BP's, and ending up with one or more with neurological defects.  Knowing what we know now, I would hate to breed this morph only to see one of these babies demonstrating this issue.

Hope that made sense to everyone.

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_Godzilla78_ (02-10-2019),_MarkL1561_ (02-10-2019)

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## the_rotten1

What pisses me off about this tired old argument is all the misinformation going around. A lot of the people opposed to the spider gene don't really understand what the wobble is or how it works. They act as though it is always detrimental to the health of the snake when it isn't. They don't seem aware that it gets better or worse depending on stress and the conditions the snake is kept in. They don't even seem to understand why the wobble exists. 

I got into a discussion with an idiot who insisted that the wobble is due to inbreeding because "naturally produced genes shouldn't have wobble". Spider is a natrually occurring morph, whether he thinks it should be or not. And people state that spiders couldn't survive in the wild, but the first spider was taken from the wild. It survived. It's viable. And the fact that it survived in the wild should be enough proof for these morons that spiders can thrive.

So many people whine about the welfare of the animals and preach about how we can't know whether or not they're in pain, but rather than listen to the people who spend the most time with them (breeders) and know the most about them, they would prefer to wipe the gene out of existence. I don't know how you can claim to want to better the welfare of an animal by wiping it off the face of the earth.

Also it is really hypocritical to ban one wobble gene and not all of them. When Brian talks about a slippery slope, it would be just as easy to ban champagne, woma, and HGW for the wobble. Yet everyone focuses on the spider. Why? Probably because the spider gets more bad press than the others. What's next? Bans on super cinnys? Caramel albinos? Desserts? The last two are already going out of style because of their issues. 

Why can't people just mind their own business? Rant over.  :Taz:

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PitOnTheProwl (02-10-2019)

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## royalreilly

There is misinformation on both sides. I personally think the amount of people claiming that the UK government itself is the one to blame when it was actually just shows sponsored by the IHS is proof of that.

I personally am against the breeding of all ball pythons that have known defects. People focus on spider because it is very common, it is used in a lot of different morphs, and it is probably the most well known of the morphs with defects. I personally wish there was MORE info about morphs with defects. This info is not spread around as much as it should be, which is probably why not a lot of people are talking about it or are only talking about spiders. When I got my first ball python I didn't even KNOW that there are certain morphs that have genetic defects. Luckily I didn't buy one of those snakes, because I wouldn't have even realized. Sadly, this information is not passed on to new keepers very often. Imagine going to a chain pet store like petco or petsmart to get your first snake, as many people do. What are the chances the employees will know about the spider wobble and warn you? Even some experienced keepers don't know that these things exist.

I care a lot about all animals. It's simple. I wouldn't buy a dog like a pug that has trouble breathing because of its genetics, I wouldn't buy a cat like a Scottish fold that has problems with cartilage and bone development because of its genetics, and I wouldn't buy a ball python that has a wobble because of its genetics. These animals are bred purely for human enjoyment. I do not agree with breeding animals that have the potential to suffer because of their genetics when other, healthier animals are an option.

I'm not shouting "Ban! Ban! Ban!" and I respect the other side, but if you're wondering why people focus on spider... It's because they're everywhere. People aren't trying to kill off such a pretty gene and be monsters and ruin the hobby, they're just concerned about ethics. (And what do you mean by, "Why can't people just mind their own business?" As hobbyists and as ball python keepers, this very much is our business. If it's not our business, then what qualifies you to talk about it either? Should no one be talking about it at all? Lol.)

Here is a list of morphs / combos with defects that I don't support: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php 



Also just a side note: I don't think all breeders are automatically trustworthy just because they spend so much time with snakes. Most big breeders just have them stuffed in low-stimulation bins. There are breeders who lie to customers, sell sick animals, etc. Many breeders are so focused on profit that they feel no remorse breeding animals that suffer. Brian B. shows off his spiders that barely wobble, but with him breeding 1000's of snakes, wouldn't you think he's bred some bad ones too? He doesn't show the ones that are truly affected by the gene because he doesn't want to look bad. He plays it off as something that isn't serious, when it is. Breeders are not all-knowing, infallible snake gods.


***I don't want to start a war! Just explaining my personal opinion. I respect all sides in this situation

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_Godzilla78_ (02-10-2019),_GoingPostal_ (03-13-2019)

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## pretends2bnormal

> Even some experienced keepers don't know that these things exist.
> 
> I care a lot about all animals. It's simple. I wouldn't buy 
> Here is a list of morphs / combos with defects that I don't support: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php


Honestly, I'm not sure I can agree with your statement about experienced keepers not being aware.  I suppose it depends on your definition, but I don't personally count the person with a single PetSmart ball python that is kept with incorrect husbandry due to ignorance as experienced even if the snake is still alive 7 years later.  That person may never know about morph issues, but serious keepers who research I think would be hard pressed to avoid finding out about it. There are dozens of posts on all the forums I've seen talking about it and many articles about the awful-ness of spider BPs.  Reddit is extremely against it and spider wobble is brought up, often in the first 3 posts, of a newbie asking what morph they should get or for ideas of cool lower cost morphs/combos. Facebook is probably similar, though I've never gone near the BP groups on there.

My 2nd snake was a spider ball python and within the first day I spent researching care before I went to get one, I came across spider wobble in several places (none related to the outcry against them, funny enough.. mostly just pages on forums asking if their snake is sick from someone who didn't know and had done no research on husbabdry).  Very quickly that exact link was posted and I could see all of the problem morphs.

Now that I've had him, I noticed something interesting about the wobble, at least for him.  He has minimal issue on flat surface (only during high excitement live feeds which was all he accepted at first. Now he eats frozen just fine with no excitement wobble at all).  Moves exactly like my other BPs.  It only becomes evident when you pick him up, and his manifests as the apparent inability to stay upright... but it has the consistency that he orients his head ALWAYS to be upright compared to the surface he is on.  If he is on your arm, as he moves around it in a circle, he is very good at keeping his head upright if the arm was center of gravity.  Kind of an interesting thing, makes me wonder if that is the cause. Something related to the gravity-detection part of the brain.

He is not a no-wobble spider, but he is far from severe or one that I would question the quality of life.  

I don't think bans are the answer from a government authority.  All that will do, in my opinion, is remove any competition for backyard breeders who are now the ONLY source of the "cool" morph combos with spiders.  And those breeders will not care about wobble or attempting to minimize it.  

Plenty of less ethical people will still want and buy them from that kind of place and all it will do is make lives worse for the snakes being bred. When there are more quality sources that do produce ones without wobble or minimal wobble with good reputation, people will prefer that over a no-name breeder and creates lower demand from backyard breeders.  Some will always suffer from someone's ignorance or stupidity, but I think banning would increase the scale of that suffering.

Olympus Reptiles appears to be doing a good job breeding spiders with no noticeable wobble (and since he shows all the babies of his clutches, I feel good that he isn't hiding anything). I do think there is something to the ability to breed for low wobble, I think it hasn't been isolated well yet.

For the same reasons, I would not support bans for dog breeds.  It will only have the same results, in my opinion.  

Just my thoughts.  I do think that people overestimate how many spiders have the severe wobble like the ones posted on YouTube of awful issues. For every video there are dozens of posts from people who own one that say theirs is nowhere near that bad and is living very well.  (As much as I don't support needlessly killing animals, ones that display severe wobble like that should have been culled if it displayed like that as babies, regardless how valuable their genetics are.)

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_MarkL1561_ (02-10-2019),PitOnTheProwl (02-10-2019)

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## PitOnTheProwl

I am always entertained by these debates.....
So many people don't really know anything about what a wobble is but they have youtubed extreme corkscrewers and are now an expert and against the morph.
The only difference is this is a KNOWN issue.
You can have a defect any time there is a breeding project.
Hell, I have had a couple kinked NORMALS.
Should you breed any that are really bad? I wouldn't.
Same people probably don't have any problems with people continually reproducing multiple times.....

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_pretends2bnormal_ (02-10-2019),Stewart_Reptiles (02-11-2019),_the_rotten1_ (02-10-2019)

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## Bogertophis

> ...Same people probably don't have any problems with people continually reproducing multiple times.....


You know what happens when you 'assume'.... :Wink:

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## Jellybeans

I don't know if the wobble spiders get is painful or not to the animals 
BUT it's painful for me to watch and it's a disgrace and disrespectful to the snake itself

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*Bogertophis* (02-10-2019),royalreilly (02-10-2019)

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## PitOnTheProwl

> I don't know if the wobble spiders get is painful or not to the animals 
> BUT it's painful for me to watch and it's a disgrace and disrespectful to the snake itself
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


There is more than just the Spider that wobbles.
You are also probably talking about full on corkscrewing and not a tilt.

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## Jellybeans

Yeah I know it's more morphs than the spider that have issues.
I just feel so bad for any of them because they're such majestic animals and to have such a bad defect is so sad.

I guess it's called corkscrewing it's just a terrible movement involuntary or not that happens and it's just very very sad to me

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## pretends2bnormal

> Yeah I know it's more morphs than the spider that have issues.
> I just feel so bad for any of them because they're such majestic animals and to have such a bad defect is so sad.
> 
> I guess it's called corkscrewing it's just a terrible movement involuntary or not that happens and it's just very very sad to me
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


Corkscrewing is the term for the severe manifestation of the defect that involves the awful looking uncontrollable motion.  Not all spiders corkscrew, many wobble some, and some have no indication they are any different than a pinstripe or normal or anything else.

The ones who corkscrew are the ones I feel should be culled, especially when it is visible from birth. These are the ones that move uncontrollably and seem to flail around more than move, the ones incapable of turning themselves upright, etc. (Not all types of manifestation show in each individual, even severe ones)

The wobble is more like.. watching a small child that isn't quite stable walking yet.  Kind of silly looking overall, but far from horrifying or heart-wrenching. These snakes clearly have the control to move and get where they want with very little issue.  

Unfortunately, very few videos show the more common mild forms of it.  (I bet if they did, people would bash the poster for having a spider with any issue at all and so they don't post it.) The videos always seem to be extremes.. very bad and awful to see over to ones with no wobble at all.

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PitOnTheProwl (02-10-2019),_the_rotten1_ (02-10-2019)

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## PitOnTheProwl

I have seen so many people claim their Spider doesn't have any wobble at all. They all do, question is to what extent?
Most all have a minimum of a head tilt when stressed, always noticable when feeding.

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## the_rotten1

@royalreilly It is unfortunate that people jumped to conclusions about the UK ban. I think people should understand the nature of a ban before complaining about it. Admittedly, I don't have the best concept of how things work across the pond myself, but that's why it's important to do research, right?

What I meant by "Why can't people just mind their own business?" is that if you don't like something, don't buy it. It's fine if people don't like the spider morph and choose to stay away from it. Nobody's saying you have to have one. But by the same token, don't try to police the behavior of others. There are a lot of people who love spider ball pythons. Whether you personally believe they should be bred or not, I think each person should be able to decide for themselves whether or not they want to own and breed them. When there is a ban, that decision is taken from us (at least, at that one venue anyway, but who is to say it won't spread?). 

And I'm not saying all breeders are trustworthy. There are definitely some deplorables out there who abuse their animals. By the same token though, it's equally ignorant to assume that all breeders are greedy bastards who are only in it for the money and don't care about the welfare of their snakes. The vast majority of breeders do it because we love our animals. Breeders typically put a lot more work into maintaining their snakes than someone who is just keeping a pet and many have decades of experience. Some of them have been breeding snakes longer than I've been alive. You gonna tell me that the opinion of someone who's owned a snake for a year is equal to that?

I can't speak about every snake out there carrying the spider gene, but all the ones I've worked with have been just as healthy as all my other BPs. Without question. And based on all the information I've learned from people who've been in the industry far longer than me, and produced far more animals, I think the main reason you don't hear more about the really bad wobblers is because: A, they very rarely happen, and B, the wobble is dependent on the stress levels of the snake. So if a snake is kept well it likely won't show severe wobble. If it is kept poorly, it gets worse.

So people take a few isolated instances of really bad wobble, the worst they can find, and post it on youtube for shock value. People watch that and think all spiders are that bad. I don't think you should underestimate the effect that media hype has had on this issue.

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_Dianne_ (03-12-2019),Stewart_Reptiles (02-11-2019),_zina10_ (02-11-2019)

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## Skyrivers

> I agree with Brian. Get the gubmint out of the reptile business!





> Yeah but then you have those breeders that don't really have very many morals just in it to make money and don't care about the welfare of the snake
> 
> Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk


Brian breeds BPs with the spider gene. Just saying.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> Brian breeds BPs with the spider gene. Just saying.


Your point??

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_Ax01_ (02-13-2019)

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## Skyrivers

> Your point??


How can he supports that ban if he is doing it himself?

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## Treeman

> How can he supports that ban if he is doing it himself?


He definitely doesn't support the ban, as the says in the video.  He wants the hobby to police itself, like many people do.

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_Ax01_ (02-13-2019)

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## JRLongton

But how can the reptile hobby police itself? To "police" means there is some effective method by which the activities of the participants can be controlled.

Allow me to cite what I feel to be an example of a hobby effectively policing itself:

My other hobby is to fly RC aircraft. In the US we have an national organization, the AMA (Academy of Model Aeronautics), that effectively polices the hobby. RC pilots need large maintained runways and open areas to fly and practice the hobby. These spaces are at a premium as most optimal sites are athletic fields. The AMA provides assistance for local clubs to have exclusive access to flying sites. The catch is only AMA members who abide by the rules can fly those locations. Here in Mass, you pretty much can't fly RC unless you are an AMA member. But if you are a member, you can be assured of always having priority access to a flying field. If you're a trouble maker, bad neighbor, or otherwise cast shade on the hobby or its practice, you can be effectively policed by the AMA. I've never heard of it happening , but it is possible to be kicked out and pretty much lose the ability to fly RC. 

The reptile hobby has no such controlling organization, so to speak of the reptile keeping/breeding hobby as policing itself makes no sense. 

From what I see, the prevailing attitude is that some may not approve of breeding the spider gene, but feel that the market should decide. The problem is that, as we all know, there are always a few bad apples that care more about a fast buck than the welfare of the animal(s). 

So to say that the market should decide or that the hobby should police itself, seems like a long way of saying we should do nothing.

And maybe we should do nothing. Maybe there is actually nothing that we can do beyond simply try to do what we feel is right in our own lives.

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_GoingPostal_ (03-13-2019)

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## Treeman

What Brian means by the hobby policing itself is relying on its members to distinguish whats right vs whats wrong to do. Like breeding spiders that are healthy and minimal/ no visible defects. One example is if a person with no experience or knowledge wanted to buy a retic from a breeder. The breeder would have no requirement to explain that these snakes get to a very large size and are not a good beginner snake, but should do so to ensure the best care possible for their snake, maintain a healthy business and a healthy, respected reptile community. He is saying there doesnt need to be an outside governemt policing our hobby, we should do it internally. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## bcr229

To some extend there is internal policing.  In some cases it happens for economic reasons, with others it's for moral reasons.

Example: Desert ball python.  If you look around you can find them for sale but there are not many, and they are super cheap due to the fertility problems with the females.

Example: Super motley boa.  Put one up for sale in a Facebook classified group and you will get ripped to shreds in the comments, and Lord help you if you admit to pairing critters where you might produce one.

In neither of these instances do I see a reason for government involvement.  The government already has plenty on its plate with investigating abuse and neglect, and unfortunately most animal control officials are just clueless when it comes to exotics.  At the federal level it has to deal with invasive species, plus threatened or endangered species, investigate smugglers, etc.

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_AbsoluteApril_ (02-11-2019),_pretends2bnormal_ (02-11-2019),_the_rotten1_ (02-12-2019),_zina10_ (02-11-2019)

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## zina10

Good points have already been made.

I've heard about / seen quite a few neurological issues in Ball Pythons, cork screwing and others, that have nothing to do with spider genes. As a matter of fact, the first question asked is usually whether there is spider in the snake and it wasn't the case with those. Something happened to those snakes husbandry wise, either before the sale, or after. Usually owned by a beginning snake keeper that bought a snake with a issue, or caused it. 

Spiders are very common nowadays, as they have become very affordable and are quite pretty.
I've owned one (Bumblebee) had a couple of hatchlings and have seen or heard about countless others that were/are perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, usually GREAT eaters, growing fast and healthy, great pets, too. I would say that easily 95% of all of them grow and live perfectly fine, given they have the right husbandry and no undue stress. 

So then we have the few terrible examples. Usually, those are the easiest found on youtube or when spider issues are discussed. 

Given that there are so many spiders and that neurological issues can also be caused by environmental issues, husbandry etc, I have to wonder, just HOW many of those spiders with extreme neurological issues might have actually have had them caused by other factors? Or made worse by them? 

As common as spiders are, that is definitely not out of the realm of possible. 

Its so easy for some to point fingers. Yet, there are definitely other genetic factors that can cause issues, but those issues aren't as visually disturbing. We already know albinism can cause eye problems. In many species and not just reptiles. It also causes extreme light sensitivity. Many animals (humans incl.) have lids, we close our eyes if light hurts us. Snakes cannot do it. 
Yet, if it doesn't move a bit funny, we aren't worried about it ? Even though THOSE issues may actually cause a snake more discomfort, then a wobble may. 

And then again, even perfectly normal animals, meaning wild type, can and will have some issues. They just aren't always noticeable to us. 

So no, spiders don't bother me. 

Breeding genetics that can cause bad kinks or issues that make it difficult for a snake to thrive are another matter. There are supers which are lethal. 

And yes, the hobby does police itself. Animals with severe issues just don't sell well. They don't thrive, grow or breed. And no breeder enjoys culling animals. And sorry, you will not get filthy rich off of breeding snakes. Esp. if you get a bad reputation. I doubt any breeders breed spiders because they want to get rich off the suffering of an animal. 

If you think its a great idea for the government to step in and start telling you what is ethical or not, just beware. Its all fun and games when it doesn't really affect you directly. But the day may come when it does. Because if you start to nitpick like this, it can quickly snowball. Today its a spider, tomorrow its anything with a possible issue, and then we have any genetic anomaly, which is any morph. 

And while we are at it, also cruel to house them in a home, so why not get rid of them altogether. 

Spiders are far from the image of a all suffering freak of nature that is exploited by humans for gain. Most are perfectly fine, actually many seem to do exceptionally well. All mine were the best eaters, fastest growers, least shy, GREAT pets. And I've heard others notice the same. Whether there is something to this or not, fact remains. There are many, many spider morphs out there doing well and being treasured by their owners. 

just my 2 cents.

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Annageckos (07-25-2019),*bcr229* (02-11-2019),_Dianne_ (03-12-2019),_MarkL1561_ (02-13-2019),_pretends2bnormal_ (02-11-2019),skriðdýr (02-09-2020),Stewart_Reptiles (02-11-2019),_the_rotten1_ (02-12-2019),Treeman (02-11-2019)

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## pretends2bnormal

> Good points have already been made.
> 
> I've heard about / seen quite a few neurological issues in Ball Pythons, cork screwing and others, that have nothing to do with spider genes. As a matter of fact, the first question asked is usually whether there is spider in the snake and it wasn't the case with those. Something happened to those snakes husbandry wise, either before the sale, or after. Usually owned by a beginning snake keeper that bought a snake with a issue, or caused it. 
> 
> Spiders are very common nowadays, as they have become very affordable and are quite pretty.
> I've owned one (Bumblebee) had a couple of hatchlings and have seen or heard about countless others that were/are perfectly fine. As a matter of fact, usually GREAT eaters, growing fast and healthy, great pets, too. I would say that easily 95% of all of them grow and live perfectly fine, given they have the right husbandry and no undue stress. 
> 
> So then we have the few terrible examples. Usually, those are the easiest found on youtube or when spider issues are discussed. 
> 
> ...


Agree 100%. Well put.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

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_zina10_ (02-11-2019)

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## Godzilla78

I recently bought out a breeders collection as he was quitting the biz.  Among them were 2 spider combos and I was pleasantly surprised to see them behaving perfectly normal with no noticeable differences.
Im sure when they are stressed, they might show something, but these are breeder aged spiders and they seem totally cool.
Kind of helped my perception to own some first hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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_MarkL1561_ (02-13-2019),_pretends2bnormal_ (02-12-2019),_zina10_ (02-11-2019)

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## Crowfingers

> YThese animals are perfectly healthy. What about English bulldogs? On average an owner spends around $5,000 a year on vet related bills. They have eye, skin, hip, and stomach issues. They also have issues with seizures as well. So should we ban bulldogs as well?
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To be frank, yes. Dogs of this breed and those with similar conformation should be banned from breeding as well. As a vet tech of over 15 years, I have not need a 100% healthy bulldog ever. And not just unhealthy or age related issues, but true issues stemming from the malformation of their faces, bad genetics, and issues that are rarely seen in other breeds. They can't even give birth on their own, all bulldogs are brought into this world via c-section because their heads are too large to pass through the females' pelvis.  

Many purebred dogs are prone to issues, but few are prone to as many and in the high percentage that the English and french bulldogs are. Doodles are prone to allergies, labs can have bad hips, boxers can have bad hearts, there is lots of cancer along purebred lines - but these other breeds can eat, breath, reproduce, run, play, etc and lead far more normal lives when compared to the brachiocephalic breeds. So yeah, the breeds should not exist.

As far as the snakes go - how do you measure comfort in an animal that lacks simple social cues? Even a dog with arthritis so severe that it can't squat to urinate or get up on its own will eat and wag its tail when its owner comes home. A good Appetite and the lack of "vocal pain signals" like whining or crying out do not mean that that dog is not in chronic terrible pain. I image snakes are no different. If you are born with discomfort and never know any different, the drive to eat and survive will outweigh the pain. Very few animals just lay down and die pain. The survival instincts to eat and breed overpower that. It's why we don't often catch illness in our pets until it is severe. They hide weakness too well. 

In my opinion breeding anything that has such a high outcome of defects mean the line should be discontinued. There is the argument that the original spider was wild caught, but again - the population would never reach what we have made it. Only those rare individuals without impairment would survive to reproduce and the gene would remain fairly rare and recessive. I don't see that as a support to breeding them just because we can care for their defects im captivity.

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*Bogertophis* (03-12-2019),_GoingPostal_ (03-13-2019),_JRLongton_ (03-13-2019)

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## Crowfingers

Timed out - either we as breeders and a community take it upon ourselves to decide what is moral to continue to do OR an agency of the government steps in a makes a law - either way it happens, as long as the interest of the animals are at the heart of it - the I'm ok with the lines being discontinued. Same with banning of wild animals as pets, invasive animals being kept in certain states, etc. I don't mind who creates the rule if the outcome is to the benefit of the creatures involved.

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*Bogertophis* (03-12-2019)

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## Alter-Echo

Tis ok, just send all the spiders to me, I will lift the unwanted burden from people's collections!  :ROFL: 

Seriously though, considering most dog breeds can barely survive without human intervention and how few people seem to care about that, I don't think a few shakey snakes is such a big deal.

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## Bogertophis

I can remember watching a program on PBS about just how far away from the original breed the "modern" bulldogs are, and I for one find the breed appalling-
just an example of humans desire for extremes to show off, for their egos & for profits, without regard for the health and life quality of the dogs.  So I'm totally 
with you, Crowfingers.  "Teacup poodles" are another aberration we could do without:  my sister had one & it was prone to having her hips dislocate, causing 
excruciating pain & disability.  If you want a dog the size of a rat, get a rat...don't make a dog that suffers for your abysmal desires.  Why isn't what nature does 
ever enough for some people?   :Confused: 

In a "perfect world" we could depend upon breeders to have common sense & to know when to stop...but alas, it's not a perfect world.

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_Crowfingers_ (03-13-2019),_GoingPostal_ (03-13-2019),_JRLongton_ (03-13-2019)

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## Cheesenugget

I think I made a previous post about this.  To reiterate, I'm not for or against the restriction of the breeding or selling of spider bp.

Both sides have good points.  Just as one can argue the possibility that the animal may be suffering, in any shape or form, the same burden should be applied to the idea that it may not be suffering as bad it some claim.  As nature will it, not every living organism has evolved 'perfectfully' or in its 'ideal' condition: we all have some flaw, mentally or physically, seen or unseen, pain or less pain.  And yet, nature persevere and that is what is most overlooked.  Yes, the wild spider ball python is a rarity, but it is not an exception to the rule.  The weird, the unusual and the least expected fight harder and survives.  As an example, I fostered orphaned kittens and had owned puppies and the runts are usually the ones that fight the hardest to live and flourish better in growth and appetite than its 'normal' siblings.  The odds may be against one who have trouble to eat, but it is not going to stop trying.

More research is needed and I hear that it is in the works.  In the meantime, if you have a spider or champagne or woma that wobbles, treat it with more care and consideration while giving it the respect rather feeling bad for it.  It is a majestic in its own right, even if it has to work a little harder.

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_Dianne_ (03-13-2019)

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## zina10

Ball Pythons can't be compared to a dog or cat. Or livestock even. Most mammals WILL still eat and pro-create, even if in bad shape. Unless on death's door.

We are talking about Ball Pythons here. If they are even a little to cold. They usually don't eat. To hot, the same. To exposed, forget it. Sick, even if a slight URI, usually they won't eat. If they don't eat, they don't thrive. If they don't thrive, they don't breed. Can't, as it takes quite a bit out of the body, they have to have fat reserves to even build those eggs and have the strength to lay them. 

Yet, spiders have been known to be exceptionally GOOD eaters. Fast growers, and very "chill". Why? I don't know. Mine was one of my most relaxed BP, that also ate very well and grew very large. She is now in a new home and I get frequent updates. Got one yesterday. New owner is in love with her. Maya produced one clutch for me at 7 1/2 years old. I just wasn't interested in breeding up until then. 
She had a large clutch, uncomplicated. All of her hatchlings were gorgeous and ate right away. So easy. And I have had hatchlings from other snakes, they aren't always so easy to get going. 

Coincidence? Sure, maybe. But I've heard it time and again. 

Maya also had a clutch for her new owner and is currently gravid again. All her hatchlings were easy and uncomplicated and the greatest eaters, once again. He also forwarded me a picture of his favorite baby of hers...Fat lil thing, gorgeous, as sweet as her mama. 
The hatchlings I had from her all went to good homes and I get updates from those people as well. All grew fast and uncomplicated, seemed to handle the move without a problem. Owners are in LOVE with them, ask me if I am still breeding  :Wink:  

Maya had no discernible wobble, although they all carry it. Worst she ever did was miss her rat at first strike (ft). And even that happened rarely. 

So are there some really bad ones ? Yes. But for each of those, there are hundreds that seem close to normal and just THRIVE. As I've said, I have to wonder if something else is going on with those really bad examples, since we see these severe neurological signs with other BP's, not all of them spiders. Not all of them even morphs. Usually they were to hot at one point or exposed to some sort of fumes, pesticides or else. 

I'm absolutely supportive of everyone having their own views and opinions. But the comparisons made with dogs really do not apply here, esp. with Ball Pythons and the way they are. Also, its always nice to have actually experienced a few of those animals, not just by youtube videos of the worst examples that may or may not have more going on. In my opinion  :Smile:  I know of so many people that are THRILLED with their spiders, and those animals are thriving and a joy. Would be a shame if they never existed.

I actually support the idea of not breeding animals that suffer. But who gets to make that decision. Its always so easy to point fingers and applaud new laws and regulations until one selves suddenly becomes affected. Not so fun then. If we allow officials/government, etc to make those decisions, oh, it won't end at animals like spiders, large pythons or in the end, any snake bigger then 3 feet or any snake at all. They ARE "wild animals" btw. They are not domesticated. So to say wild animals should be forbidden as pets, is a slippery slope. 

And just because she is such a cutie, here is one of Mayas 9 month old hatchlings, her owners pride and joy. He said this little female is just like her mother. Completely chill, nothing seems to stress her, curious and always ready to eat.

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_Alter-Echo_ (03-13-2019),_Danger noodles_ (03-13-2019),_Dianne_ (03-13-2019)

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