# Colubrids > Ratsnakes >  ring of white puffiness around eyes, and there are tiny small white bugs! :(

## redshepherd

This was not there even one week ago. But I took Jack my russian rat snake out and noticed his eyes had a puffy white rim. The rim of his eyes slightly distorted and swollen in shape, with the left eye being worse than the right. There were VERY tiny little white specks on and around his eye rim where the puffiness is. 

When I looked very VERY closely, I realized the white specks MOVE. They almost look like tiny white spiders that only move once in awhile, many legs, which I'm assuming is a type of mite. But they are literally so small that a camera would not be able to capture it unless it's a macro, so I can't get pics of the mites themselves. But I have a pic of the white ring around his eye, once my phone charges. 

It seems to specifically collect around the rim of his eyes, nowhere else.

Nothing has changed in his setup since I got him. None of my other snakes have it. Thankfully, Jack is on his quarantine downstairs. QUARANTINE YOUR SNAKES YALL.

So... any idea what this is, what has caused it, how it spread to Jack, and how to treat it? And how harmful it is? I noticed he seemed more lethargic when I took him out than usual, but not sure if it's just him being himself or if it is due to this.

the first issue I have with my snakes and it's on my poor hatchling of the most straightforward species! lol  :Sad:

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_Godzilla78_ (11-22-2017)

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## redshepherd

Now I think it sounds more like an external parasite, but no clue what it is still...

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## Sallos

Might they be from his substrate?   You might want to treat the enclosures with Prevent A Mite.

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_redshepherd_ (11-22-2017)

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## redshepherd

> Might they be from his substrate?   You might want to treat the enclosures with Prevent A Mite.


He uses the same substrate (aspen) as all my other snakes. Though I can always treat as well. I don't think they're mites though now, and I talked to Amy Zerkle his breeder, and she believes they're some kind of parasite, which she gave me instruction on treating with a sterile enclosure and olive oil applied to his eyes every 3 days (to suffocate the insects). But still don't know what type or how they got there.

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## Sauzo

Just the way it sounds, it seems like mites. When they are little like that, they are kind of clear in color. They dont take on the blackish blood color until they feed. And as small ones, they are pretty darn tiny and pretty hard to see until you get a TON of them. The adults who have fed are much easier to see which is why people say, 'if you see 1 mite, you can pretty much guaranteed there are lots more' as like i said, the young are clear or white and really hard to see.

If it was something like wood mites, they wouldnt be all congregating around the snakes eyes and sockets as they wouldnt be feeding on the snake.

Did you go to reptile show or reptile shop in the past month or so? Maybe picked up a hitchhiker?

I personally would treat the cage with PAM and be sure to spray PAM on a rag and wipe down the outside of your other cages as well as the cages on the rat snake. Basically create a 'death barrier' around the rat snakes cage and the other snakes cages so if it is snake mites, they would have to cross 2 barriers of death to get a meal. Also be sure to treat for 2-3 months as snake mite eggs can hang around for a month or so.

Best of luck.

And i dont think the mites came from substrate. Aspen is not the ideal breeding grounds for them. They want a warm, moist, dark place with easy access to a meal thus why a nice upper corner in a snake cage is the best spot. I've used aspen for years and never gotten mites from that. I did get them once from what i believe was a hitchhiker from a reptile shop as i dont go to shows.

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_MissterDog_ (11-22-2017),_redshepherd_ (11-22-2017)

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## redshepherd

Thanks Sauzo, I'll treat with PAM too just in case then. It wouldn't hurt to treat on top of the parasite treatment. I just moved him into an even simpler 6qt tub with paper towel. 

I haven't gone to a reptile show or anywhere special really! And none of my other snakes have it. The thing is that this white ring of whatever was not even noticeable even 2 days ago when I took pictures of him. And today, it is extremely noticeable, really puffy eyes, and he seems lethargic. They developed and multiplied really quickly! So I'm still unsure if it is mites, since there are only these tiny white things but no black mites.

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## redshepherd

LOL I just realized that mites are also considered a parasite. So I'm definitely going to be treating with PAM then.

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## Jhill001

I couldn't find anything about white eye mites. Sounds weird, keep us updated.

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## redshepherd

OMG I found two adults!!! Thats good they are mites now I can easily treat them. But ugh! How did they get there? I didnt even visit a reptile shop or anything. My dogs go out to play, could they have carried them back somehow?

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## Ax01

could we get pix of the lil white bugs? i'm curious as to what they look like. i'm sure w/ your skills u can make them look beautiful!

Edit: also i've dealt w/ mites twice. 1) w/ my first BP Elphie; 2) when i took Rain home. i use Natural Chemistry Reptile Relief Spray on the animal itself and PAM on enclosures, hides, decor, etc. if not already in QT, QT the animal, throw out substrate, spray/gas/fog everything, i even boiled some decor, keep on paper towel and hides only in enclosure while in treatment, continue treatment w/ Reptile Spray and PAM as directed.

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_redshepherd_ (11-22-2017)

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## redshepherd

> could we get pix of the lil white bugs? i'm curious as to what they look like. i'm sure w/ your skills u can make them look beautiful!
> 
> Edit: also i've dealt w/ mites twice. 1) w/ my first BP Elphie; 2) when i took Rain home. i use Natural Chemistry Reptile Relief Spray on the animal itself and PAM on enclosures, hides, decor, etc. if not already in QT, QT the animal, throw out substrate, spray/gas/fog everything, i even boiled some decor, keep on paper towel and hides only in enclosure while in treatment, continue treatment w/ Reptile Spray and PAM as directed.


I washed most of them away yesterday, so they're sort of hard to see now. I'm not sure I want to handle Jack much anymore, in case eggs or larvae get on my hands LOL, unfortunately. But I'm convinced they're snake mites, since I did find 2 adults! 

Thanks, I did just buy PAM and also I'm trying to figure out what else to buy on amazon to make $25 now... I found the reptile spray as an add-on for only $6!

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## Sauzo

Snake mites arent native to the US so you wouldnt find them outside in nature here. So your dog didnt bring them in. You had to have gotten them from a pet shop, friend with snakes with mites or possibly from a feeder food.

Eggs usually arent laid on the snake itself. They lay them in a nice dark corner so like the top corners in the cage etc.

And now that you verified it is mites, like i said, i would wipe down the outside of the cages that arent affected yet. Like i said, the one time i had to deal with them, only Luna got them, no one else got them and they were in the same room until i found them on Luna and moved her to a treatment set up. I did go crazy and wiped down all the stands/tables that the other cages were on and wiped down the outside of those cages. In Luna's treatment tank, i wiped down that table, the outside of the tank and the top rim of the tank. Basically to keep them inside until they were dead so none could escape. And the ones that had escaped before i caught them is the reason i wiped down the the tables/stands and outside of the cages of my other snakes as well as any wires that were touching the cages. Basically, any way for them to get in the cage stack especially around the vents.

I did treatment on Luna for 2-2.5 months and wiped down the outside of the cage stacks for about 4 months.

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_redshepherd_ (11-22-2017)

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## Sauzo

Oh and a trick i found is put any decor, temp units etc in zip lock bags and shoot a shot of PAM in the bag and seal it up and put it in the garage for 2 months. If there are any eggs hidden inside the temp unit or crevises of decor, they will hatch before the 2 month period and die.

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_redshepherd_ (11-22-2017)

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## redshepherd

> Snake mites arent native to the US so you wouldnt find them outside in nature here. So your dog didnt bring them in. You had to have gotten them from a pet shop, friend with snakes with mites or possibly from a feeder food.
> 
> Eggs usually arent laid on the snake itself. They lay them in a nice dark corner so like the top corners in the cage etc.
> 
> And now that you verified it is mites, like i said, i would wipe down the outside of the cages that arent affected yet. Like i said, the one time i had to deal with them, only Luna got them, no one else got them and they were in the same room until i found them on Luna and moved her to a treatment set up. I did go crazy and wiped down all the stands/tables that the other cages were on and wiped down the outside of those cages. In Luna's treatment tank, i wiped down that table, the outside of the tank and the top rim of the tank. Basically to keep them inside until they were dead so none could escape. And the ones that had escaped before i caught them is the reason i wiped down the the tables/stands and outside of the cages of my other snakes as well as any wires that were touching the cages. Basically, any way for them to get in the cage stack especially around the vents.
> 
> I did treatment on Luna for 2-2.5 months and wiped down the outside of the cage stacks for about 4 months.


Man, I just can't imagine where I got them from... I didn't visit a pet shop or live feeders or visited friends with snakes. And not possible that they came from the breeder right, after a whole month? I'd think they'd have appeared way earlier if it was that.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to do all that you said. I think I want to set my house on fire too. LOL. Thankfully Jack was in a 15qt tub, so it's a lot simpler to manage than big tanks.

Does PAM have to kill on contact, or would the fumes also kill mites? 

I'm also worried that the mites are out and around the cages, crawling around my room too or something. Does anyone know how long they can survive without a host? Do you think I should spray the floor and stuff too near where his old tub was?

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## AbsoluteApril

> Thanks, I did just buy PAM and also I'm trying to figure out what else to buy on amazon to make $25 now...


They sell PAM (provent a mite) on amazon? 
I've always had to buy it direct from pro products.

I wouldn't worry about spraying the floor or anything, just spray the affected enclosure inside and outside in a well ventilated area and let it completely dry.

Good luck, they are annoying but you found it fast and they should be eradicated quickly. One treatment is all it's ever taken for me (the very few times I brought in a new snake in QT that had mites).

oh and here is a write up about the life cycle of snake mite:
http://vpi.com/publications/the_life...of_snake_mites

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_MissterDog_ (11-22-2017),_redshepherd_ (11-22-2017)

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## redshepherd

> They sell PAM (provent a mite) on amazon? 
> I've always had to buy it direct from pro products.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about spraying the floor or anything, just spray the affected enclosure inside and outside in a well ventilated area and let it completely dry.
> 
> Good luck, they are annoying but you found it fast and they should be eradicated quickly. One treatment is all it's ever taken for me (the very few times I brought in a new snake in QT that had mites).
> 
> oh and here is a write up about the life cycle of snake mite:
> http://vpi.com/publications/the_life...of_snake_mites


Oh no, I meant the reptile spray is on amazon for $6 as an add-on with 2 day shipping. I bought PAM on Pro-products. I still haven't figured out what to add to make $25.... lol  :Bowdown:  I would buy the $11 one, but it takes a week to arrive, and I don't want to wait that long.

That is good to know that they're not just going to take over my house lol!

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_AbsoluteApril_ (11-22-2017)

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## bcr229

> And not possible that they came from the breeder right, after a whole month? I'd think they'd have appeared way earlier if it was that.


That's very possible if just a few adults or even nymphs were shipped with the snake as it would take a few weeks for a full-blown infestation to develop.

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_redshepherd_ (11-22-2017)

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## redshepherd

> That's very possible if just a few adults or even nymphs were shipped with the snake as it would take a few weeks for a full-blown infestation to develop.


Maannnnn... thats just grand lol :S

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## Sauzo

> Man, I just can't imagine where I got them from... I didn't visit a pet shop or live feeders or visited friends with snakes. And not possible that they came from the breeder right, after a whole month? I'd think they'd have appeared way earlier if it was that.
> 
> Yeah, I'm definitely going to do all that you said. I think I want to set my house on fire too. LOL. Thankfully Jack was in a 15qt tub, so it's a lot simpler to manage than big tanks.
> 
> Does PAM have to kill on contact, or would the fumes also kill mites? 
> 
> I'm also worried that the mites are out and around the cages, crawling around my room too or something. Does anyone know how long they can survive without a host? Do you think I should spray the floor and stuff too near where his old tub was?


They could have come from the breeder. Snake mite eggs can take a month or so to hatch depending on the conditions. That is why it is recommended to treat at least 2 months.

PAM actually leaves residual Permethrin on the spot where it is sprayed, The aerosol is just the propellant for it. Dont breath the fumes. I accidently did a few times and my chest got tight and my throat got scratchy for about an hour. And yes the fumes will kill too because there will be permethrin in that as well but the majority will be in the liquid.

What i did was use paper towels and lay them down and spray them as per directions on the can. Leave the water bowl out for 24 hours. The snake wont die but if there is a spot you missed letting dry and the snake goes through it and then into the water bowl to try and drown the mites, the water will soak up the PAM. That happened to my JCP and i had to rush her to my vet as she lost motor skills and everything. Luckily my vet was able to flush her systems and save her. So yeah, leave the water bowl out 24 hours after application. And after you apply it, quickly cover the top of the cage and let them fumes settle inside the cage for about 15 mins. Then you should be good.

Repeat application every week and check for dead mites on the paper towels. Do this for 2-3 months.

As for mites outside the cage. If you had that many babies and the snake was actually lethargic, i would guess you have them outside the cage as well. Like i said, wipe down the any way the mites could get into other snake cages, table legs, table tops, outside cage walls, cords going into or touching cages, around the doors of cages, around the vents of cages. I never sprayed it on my floors, i just wiped down all the stuff i listed above for about 4 months.

Also watch the other snakes and check them closely to make sure they dont get it. If you find one with it, then you can pretty much assume they all got them ad you will have to treat all the cages and snakes. 

Mites can travel long distances. And then can survive a month or so. I'm not exactly sure how long they can go with blood but i know the babies dont eat right away. They kind of hang out. Then once they do take a meal, is when they change color and then they breed and the females wanders off to find a nice dark, damp, warm place to lay eggs. I'm sure you can google the life stages of snake mites to find out. I just know, they can survive at least a month and eggs can last a month or so. So even if you dont see any mites after a month, keep treating as there might be eggs still that havent hatched. Like i said, i treated for about 2.5 months and then moved Luna back down with the other snakes and into her new AP cage.

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_MissterDog_ (11-22-2017),_redshepherd_ (11-22-2017)

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## redshepherd

> They could have come from the breeder. Snake mite eggs can take a month or so to hatch depending on the conditions. That is why it is recommended to treat at least 2 months.
> 
> PAM actually leaves residual Permethrin on the spot where it is sprayed, The aerosol is just the propellant for it. Dont breath the fumes. I accidently did a few times and my chest got tight and my throat got scratchy for about an hour. And yes the fumes will kill too because there will be permethrin in that as well but the majority will be in the liquid.
> 
> What i did was use paper towels and lay them down and spray them as per directions on the can. Leave the water bowl out for 24 hours. The snake wont die but if there is a spot you missed letting dry and the snake goes through it and then into the water bowl to try and drown the mites, the water will soak up the PAM. That happened to my JCP and i had to rush her to my vet as she lost motor skills and everything. Luckily my vet was able to flush her systems and save her. So yeah, leave the water bowl out 24 hours after application. And after you apply it, quickly cover the top of the cage and let them fumes settle inside the cage for about 15 mins. Then you should be good.
> 
> Repeat application every week and check for dead mites on the paper towels. Do this for 2-3 months.
> 
> As for mites outside the cage. If you had that many babies and the snake was actually lethargic, i would guess you have them outside the cage as well. Like i said, wipe down the any way the mites could get into other snake cages, table legs, table tops, outside cage walls, cords going into or touching cages, around the doors of cages, around the vents of cages. I never sprayed it on my floors, i just wiped down all the stuff i listed above for about 4 months.
> ...


Oh wow- yeah I will definitely treat at least 2 months. Also, I'm thinking possibly they were even on the shipping box and somehow made their way onto Jack awhile later, because I kept his shipping box this whole time in his room. :S 

Also geez, how scary! Thanks for the heads up. I'm so paranoid of using PAM incorrectly, it being so poisonous.

Thanks for the info too, it helps a lot! I never thought I would have to deal with mites... I normally avoided reptile shows for this reason, but here I am lol.

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## salt

I'm betting the white around his eyes is the membrane swollen and irritated from him rubbing against things from the irritation the mites are causing him.

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_redshepherd_ (11-23-2017)

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## redshepherd

> I'm betting the white around his eyes is the membrane swollen and irritated from him rubbing against things from the irritation the mites are causing him.


Yeppp combined with the baby mites themselves are actually white. Just a bunch of white nasty crap. Lol

Actually, I've been temporarily treating him with olive oil before the spray and PAM arrives, and the white swelling/stuff in general around his eyes got a TON better even just since yesterday. Unfortunately he's already a pretty dark brown, and I can't see if there are black adult mites on him, only the white ones.

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## Sauzo

> Oh wow- yeah I will definitely treat at least 2 months. Also, I'm thinking possibly they were even on the shipping box and somehow made their way onto Jack awhile later, because I kept his shipping box this whole time in his room. :S 
> 
> Also geez, how scary! Thanks for the heads up. I'm so paranoid of using PAM incorrectly, it being so poisonous.
> 
> Thanks for the info too, it helps a lot! I never thought I would have to deal with mites... I normally avoided reptile shows for this reason, but here I am lol.


They probably were inside the box or on the snake when you got him. They wouldnt have survived outside the box i wouldnt think unless it is warm where you are. Up here in Washington State, its colder than a witches *** so mites wouldnt survive but then again, the snake probably wouldnt either lol.

Yeah PAM is potent stuff. Remember a little goes a long way with that stuff too. You dont need to go all crazy with spraying it. Think the instructions say 1 sec per 1 sq ft. I actually applied 1 shot of it to my other snakes the day i found them on Luna. Forgot to mentioned it. I just took out the water bowls and gave 2 quick left to right sprays in each AP cage and let it dry it about an hour and then put the snakes back in and left the water bowls out 24 hours. When i talked to Bob about it, he said you ca apply it to any substrate as long as it can dry. So aspen works but paper towel is the easiest as it dries fast, can be changed quickly and easy to spot dead mites on. So if you are really worried, you can just give a precautionary spray in each cage and wait an hour before putting the snakes back and leave the water bowls out for every for 24 hours. Also dont forget to do all the stuff with the outside of the cages too.

And also, if you have any type of feeder insects for other reptiles, be sure to move them or the fumes from the PAM will kill them. I had to move my dubia colony when i did or my beardie would have been very mad with me lol.

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_redshepherd_ (11-23-2017)

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## Sauzo

> Yeppp combined with the baby mites themselves are actually white. Just a bunch of white nasty crap. Lol
> 
> Actually, I've been temporarily treating him with olive oil before the spray and PAM arrives, and the white swelling/stuff in general around his eyes got a TON better even just since yesterday. Unfortunately he's already a pretty dark brown, and I can't see if there are black adult mites on him, only the white ones.


Take a damp white paper towel and wrap it around the snake and run it down his body and then look at the paper towel. You will be able to catch ones running on his body. Then you can see how many adults you catch lol.

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## redshepherd

> Take a damp white paper towel and wrap it around the snake and run it down his body and then look at the paper towel. You will be able to catch ones running on his body. Then you can see how many adults you catch lol.


Thanks for all the info Sauzo! Really good to know, and I'll follow what you've been doing.

I did that a little while ago except with a paper towel covered in olive oil, and surprisingly none came off. So there must be very few, maybe only just a ton of eggs and babies so far somewhere, so I caught it really early I guess. 

There were two adult mites yesterday on the paper towel... For some reason, I just dropped them in the water bowl like a moron, thinking they would drown, but they vanished today. So I assume they crawled out and are stuck on Jack somewhere. Should've just killed them. :\

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## hilabeans

Well, I'm obviously watching this thread very closely. I'm so sorry you are going thru this. I have an untrained eye for mites but am watching mine like a hawk hoping to catch it early, assuming it came from the breeder. 

Dang. 😫

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## redshepherd

> Well, I'm obviously watching this thread very closely. I'm so sorry you are going thru this. I have an untrained eye for mites but am watching mine like a hawk hoping to catch it early, assuming it came from the breeder. 
> 
> Dang.


It's a good thing you only have one snake! But yeah, for me it could've also just been on his shipment box I never threw out, and only just hatched and made its way across the room to him... Anything is possible lol. I threw the box out now of course, but it's been there for a month.

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## redshepherd

The PAM still hasn’t shipped yet and I ordered it on Wednesday, so I just covered the entire cage with reptile spray lmao. Jack is sitting in another empty box covered in reptile spray. :I The UTH is also covered in reptile spray. My hands are covered in reptile spray. Everything is covered in reptile spray.


I saw some young mites crawling on the OUTSIDE of his tub yesterday, which is why.  Just grand lol. I've actually only ever found two adults, which are now gone (one killed, no idea where the other went), but I see a lot of babies and juvies(?) light brown ones.

Does anyone know how long reptile spray lasts if I just let it dry on a surface? Or does it only kill mites when wet, unlike PAM?

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## bcr229

Reptile Spray doesn't persist, once it's dry it loses its effectiveness pretty quickly.

Frontline is another option for killing mites, see video:

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_redshepherd_ (11-24-2017)

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## redshepherd

> Reptile Spray doesn't persist, once it's dry it loses its effectiveness pretty quickly.
> 
> Frontline is another option for killing mites, see video:


Thanks for the vid! Is frontline worth getting if I already have reptile spray? So it lasts on the snake for an extended period even after drying?

Is this the right product? https://www.chewy.com/frontline-spra...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

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## redshepherd

Actually, can Frontline be used on top of reptile spray if I've already used reptile spray? Would there be some reaction between the two chemicals that might be harmful?

And can Frontline be used on a snake in the enclosure covered in PAM (dried), do you think?

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## Sauzo

I probably wouldnt use it. PAM is permethrin. That Frontline stuff is something else. I wouldnt want to mix the two. If you are worried about the room, i have been told by a couple boa breeders i talk to that hanging those Hot Shot no pest stripes in the room will work but you need to circulate the air around with like a box fan or ceiling fan. And you dont want to hang it close to the snake cages. They hang them on the opposite corner and then one runs a box fan while the other person uses a ceiling fan.

But me personally, as long as you are wiping down the outside of the cages, tables, legs and anything else mites can use to gain access to the snakes for a few months, you should be ok. I personally am not a fan of using lots of chemicals around my snakes so only thing i have ever used has been PAM.

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_redshepherd_ (11-24-2017)

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## bcr229

> Thanks for the vid! Is frontline worth getting if I already have reptile spray? So it lasts on the snake for an extended period even after drying?
> 
> Is this the right product? https://www.chewy.com/frontline-spra...E&gclsrc=aw.ds


It looks like the same product.

You can wash off the Reptile Spray just by soaking the snake in water.  It doesn't persist long anyway like the Frontline does.

The PAM is for use in/around the enclosure or rack to kill mites during the off-snake phase of their life cycle.  You spray the tub/enclosure, newspaper substrate, and hide with it.  Don't spray the water bowl.  You don't put the snake back into its enclosure until all of that stuff has completely dried.

Note in the video he did that with a snake that just arrived.  It should be SOP to treat all new snakes for mites until you are 100% certain they are not carrying any.  If you treat the enclosure with permethrin the day before the snake arrives, and use the Frontline or Reptile Spray when the snake comes out of the shipping box, you should stop an infestation before it becomes a major problem.

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_MissterDog_ (11-24-2017),_redshepherd_ (11-24-2017)

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## redshepherd

Thanks you guys for the replies as usual!

I forgot to mention... I had Jack's old tub sitting on an unused mattress. Do you think the mites would lay eggs on the mattress? Would spraying it all over in PAM kill any mites left, or do you think I should just throw the mattress out?

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## bcr229

I would spray the mattress.  If you don't want the smell/chemical on it you could always use a steam cleaner on it, as temps of 135*F for five seconds will kill mites and eggs.

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_redshepherd_ (11-25-2017)

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## redshepherd

Does anyone know who sells provent-a-mite that would have faster shipping? Or where to buy it in person?

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## Godzilla78

I know I have told this story several times here, but Ragnarok completely eradicated a mite infestation my himself.  They do this in nature without human intervention.  All I did was provide a fresh bowl of water every day that he could completely submerge himself in, and I cleaned the tank out every day.  Within a couple weeks, he eradicated all the mites AND all the eggs.  They never came back, and that was 2 years ago.  I didn't use any chemicals at all except for a bowl of dihydrogen monoxide.   Good old DROWNING.  It worked.

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## AbsoluteApril

> I forgot to mention... I had Jack's old tub sitting on an unused mattress. Do you think the mites would lay eggs on the mattress? Would spraying it all over in PAM kill any mites left, or do you think I should just throw the mattress out?


Take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.


 :Very Happy:

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_Godzilla78_ (11-25-2017)

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## redshepherd

> I know I have told this story several times here, but Ragnarok completely eradicated a mite infestation my himself.  They do this in nature without human intervention.  All I did was provide a fresh bowl of water every day that he could completely submerge himself in, and I cleaned the tank out every day.  Within a couple weeks, he eradicated all the mites AND all the eggs.  They never came back, and that was 2 years ago.  I didn't use any chemicals at all except for a bowl of dihydrogen monoxide.   Good old DROWNING.  It worked.


That's nice, but Jack hasn't soaked himself once in his water bowl yet, and he is small enough to fit into it like a pond. So it seems that not all snakes instinctively soak when they have mites, even if that were to work.

I also noticed young mites crawling outside the tub, so they don't just stay in the tub. I think it is safest to use PAM to really get rid of all of them.

"They do this in nature without human intervention." This is why animals in nature have short lifespans and die from various diseases and parasites... Treating and giving our animals the best care in captivity is what keeps them alive.




> Take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.


Honestly I think I might actually throw it out LOL.

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_MissterDog_ (11-25-2017)

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## Godzilla78

Yeah, if he is not soaking then he needs more help than water.  Just trying to help, I was so happy that the soaking worked for us.

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## bcr229

> Does anyone know who sells provent-a-mite that would have faster shipping? Or where to buy it in person?


Go to a drug store or WalMart, Target, etc.  Get a 2 oz bottle of the NIX lice treatment cream rinse that contains permethrin.  Mix that with a gallon of clean water to make an effective mite spray.

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_redshepherd_ (11-25-2017)

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## redshepherd

> Go to a drug store or WalMart, Target, etc.  Get a 2 oz bottle of the NIX lice treatment cream rinse that contains permethrin.  Mix that with a gallon of clean water to make an effective mite spray.


Would wiping this solution on furniture and outside of the tub and stuff be an okay replacement for PAM? Or does it only work when wet, like the reptile soray?

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## Sauzo

> Would wiping this solution on furniture and outside of the tub and stuff be an okay replacement for PAM? Or does it only work when wet, like the reptile soray?


I too have asked lots of people this question and no one seems to know. It's worth trying while waiting for the PAM to arrives as worst case, it loses effectiveness when dried. Best case it keeps the effectiveness when dried. I would try it. Also can check your reptile shops. I know my reptile shop stocks it and I also live close to Bean Farm so i can just drive out there and pick up a couple cans from them if needed which is what i did when i found a couple mites on Luna. I now keep a couple cans handy in case i get hitchhikers again.

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## bcr229

The active ingredient in PAM is permethrin.  The active ingredient in the NIX is permethrin.  Permethrin has a half-life of 30 days if kept out of direct sunlight, that is shortened to about a week if used outside as a kennel/livestock spray.  Permethrin will remain effective at killing the mites even when dried and it can be sprayed on the tubs, hides, rack, carpet, etc.  You can also spray the paper you use as substrate with it, just make sure it dries completely before putting your snake back on it.  I would also keep a supply of treated and dried paper on-hand to use so that you can replace the soiled paper with it when your snake makes a mess.

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_MissterDog_ (11-26-2017),_redshepherd_ (11-25-2017)

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## redshepherd

> The active ingredient in PAM is permethrin.  The active ingredient in the NIX is permethrin.  Permethrin has a half-life of 30 days if kept out of direct sunlight, that is shortened to about a week if used outside as a kennel/livestock spray.  Permethrin will remain effective at killing the mites even when dried and it can be sprayed on the tubs, hides, rack, carpet, etc.  You can also spray the paper you use as substrate with it, just make sure it dries completely before putting your snake back on it.  I would also keep a supply of treated and dried paper on-hand to use so that you can replace the soiled paper with it when your snake makes a mess.


Thank you! Also, that's a really good idea about keeping treated paper.

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## DLena

Be persistent. Dont think things are safe just because you do t see them after 4-5 weeks.
Top off your Amazon order with some new plants and vines.  :Smile:

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## redshepherd

Is this a reliable guide for Nix...? It instructs to spray directly on the snake as well, but not sure I trust this. Since PAM shouldn't be sprayed on the snake.

http://bamboozoo.weebly.com/snakes-n...treatment.html

Other than that part, I assume Nix works the same way as PAM in that once it dries completely inside the enclosure, it is safe for the snake to live in?

I've just sprayed everywhere with Nix solution and waiting for it to dry LOL.




> Be persistent. Don’t think things are safe just because you do t see them after 4-5 weeks.
> Top off your Amazon order with some new plants and vines.


for sure! I'm going to respray with PAM a week or two from now.

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## bcr229

I've never sprayed a permetrin-based product directly on a snake.  It's not needed since the mites will walk on the treated paper during the off-snake stages of their life cycle.  I use Reptile Spray on the snake.

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_MissterDog_ (02-20-2018),_redshepherd_ (11-26-2017)

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## redshepherd

> I've never sprayed a permetrin-based product directly on a snake.  It's not needed since the mites will walk on the treated paper during the off-snake stages of their life cycle.  I use Reptile Spray on the snake.


Awesome, sounds good! That's what I've done.

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