# Miscellaneous Herp Interests > Venomous Animals >  Venomoid animals

## kon1

Hi i just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were on venomoid animals.

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## BallPythons9

Don't like 'em.

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## DutchHerp

Dumb.

Later, Matt

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## Patrick Long

Dumb x2.  

Just as cat declaws, dog vocal chord removal

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## Fallout32

It's completely irresponsible. The surgery to take out the venom glands on a snake is highly invasive. It's leaves the animal's natural look deformed as well. There was also another post on here that showed a study being done where they attempted to milk four supposedly venomoid snakes. 3 of the 4 produced venom.

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## waltah!

The only plus I see with them is for use in training people to work with hots. They may also discourage those who think they are ready, but are not really even close. Getting tagged by a venomoid cobra might make you think twice about that $100 kingsnake purchase when it could mean your life.

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## mainbutter

I don't like it one bit.

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## kon1

on venomoid inc they say that it doesnt hurt the snake. its done by proffesionals. and they replace implants so it looks normal. is thier exceptions ?

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## Patrick Long

> on venomoid inc they say that it doesnt hurt the snake. its done by proffesionals. and they replace implants so it looks normal. is thier exceptions ?


Exceptions to what?

How the hell do they know if it hurts the snake, its usually under anesthetic. And yes the do replace the "deflated" face with implants.


Edit

Aside from the surgery, most Hots use their venom to start as a digestive process. How detrimental is that inside the belly, I have no idea.

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## kon1

exceptions to it being so harmful i understand its wrong people cutting up snakes in a garage so ppl can have them as pets but if its done by veterinarians and healing is within two days i just dont see how harmful that could be to a snake

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## wilomn

> exceptions to it being so harmful i understand its wrong people cutting up snakes in a garage so ppl can have them as pets but if its done by veterinarians and healing is within two days i just dont see how harmful that could be to a snake


I smell Tuna.

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## FIEND_FO_LYFE

> I smell Tuna.





noone has yet shown me ANYTHING good from having a  venomoid.
i think its cruel, and makes it "OK" for some D-BAG to go get a venomous snake...

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## jparker1167

snakes dont need to inject prey with venom they digest them just fine without the animals being injected with venom

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## luna13

i dont like it

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## jere000

It is stupid because you get a venomous snake to take it's venom away?It makes no sense and doesn't work 100% of the time and puts the snake through a lot of stress and pain that is isn't necessary.

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## Neal

I think it shouldn't be allowed, and that's my input on it. It's part of the snake, so if you get a snake and you don't want that aswell then you shouldn't own a venomous.

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## Denial

> on venomoid inc they say that it doesnt hurt the snake. its done by proffesionals. and they replace implants so it looks normal. is thier exceptions ?


They have no idea how it feels to the snake. They say that to try to make sales. It doesnt matter if its done by a professional or a backyard hack and slash its wrong. They were put on earth with venom and thats how they should stay. If they didnt need venom to digest or kill prey they wouldnt of been born with it. God made them right the first time! If you cant handle the heat dont play with fire!

imo

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_mainbutter_ (08-14-2009)

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## wilomn

> I think it shouldn't be allowed, and that's my input on it. It's part of the snake, so if you get a snake and you don't want that aswell then you shouldn't own a venomous.





> They have no idea how it feels to the snake. They say that to try to make sales. It doesnt matter if its done by a professional or a backyard hack and slash its wrong. They were put on earth with venom and thats how they should stay. If they didnt need venom to digest or kill prey they wouldnt of been born with it. God made them right the first time! If you cant handle the heat dont play with fire!
> 
> imo


By this logic, especially since someone's god is now involved and we all know what it means to cross one of them, we should not be neutering or spaying our dog and cats. After all, they were born, er made, with those parts and we, heh heh heh, as mere mortals, should not be changing what, no, wait, can't do it....

You who profess belief are some of the biggest hypocrits to walk the earth.

When you favor something, it's ok to change anything, god given or not. When you don't favor it, it's a sin and just all around bad.

Pish and tosh I say.

Arguments based on this are invalid and are basically a waste of bandwidth.

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## Denial

Human beings as a whole are hypocrits regardless of what you believe in.

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## Skiploder

Some animals - various crotalids, king cobras, the king brown, etc. that manufacture substances in their venom that could have a protective role in their immune systems.  Those enzymes may protect them from internal parasites and possibly pathogens.

As to the argument that venom plays no role in the digestion of prey items: that's based on an ASSumption - not any real scientific evidence.  That ASSumption is a WAG -  postulated because several species of venomous snakes will eat dead prey without it injecting it with venom.

....and venomoids should be fed f/t prey items.  What a nasty shock for that poor captive venomoid rattler when that rat he bites doesn't die - how the heck is he going to eat it?

Which brings us back to the digestion question..........What IF enzymes in the venom are intended to assist the digestion system?  Is it possibly that venomoids are at risk for complications due to their inability to utilize these enzymes?

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_Denial_ (08-14-2009)

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## icygirl

What the heck is the point if you can own a non-venomous instead, that never had venom glands to begin with?

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_Denial_ (08-14-2009)

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## Neal

Several snake species venom actually starts to digest once its injected. I'm not sure as to which species due to me not keeping venomous.

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## wilomn

> Human beings as a whole are hypocrits regardless of what you believe in.


Denial, while I use your quote, this is not directed only at you.

And we should just accept this? 

I suppose there is no point in trying to make a difference, you know, buck up for what is personally believed in and actually representing those beliefs whether or not anyone else agrees with or condones them, no, I don't suppose, given the fact that "as a whole" humans are hypocrits, anyone of us should try to make a difference with our personal selves, what we do and say today versus tomorrow and consistency despite group or surroundings.

Yeah, that would be a lot harder than just going with the flow. 

Best do it the easy way and not bother to struggle, to hope, to seek, something better than what we see everyday, to strive for a dream or ideal that is not really feasible given human nature.....sigh.

What's the colour of the day tomorrow? I want to fit in, not stand out as an independent thinker.

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_Denial_ (08-14-2009)

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## wilomn

> What the heck is the point if you can own a non-venomous instead, that never had venom glands to begin with?


There are some VERY cool hot snakes out there. Just because you have no interest does not invalidate that of others.

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## FIEND_FO_LYFE

Ok, let me ask one question...


why would you want a venomoid?

answer, so you feel safe knowing your animal you keep, MIGHT not have venom glands, thus making it publicy acceptable to the "non snake keepers".

SOLUTION, stop being a complete D-Bag, learn proper ways to deal with venomous, and educate yourself. DONT MODIFY THE ANIMAL TO KEEP IT!

yes i do see the point with cats and dogs getting fixxed.
BUT, that procidure, isnt changing the way of life for the animal.
they still can mate, just not produce.

i have no respect for a keeper, who has no clue how to deal with venomous.
so they have venomoids.  im not arguing, just stating my opinion.
and it a subject ive read about quite a bit.

and still, NOONE has shown me anything good from this.
its like tattooing your fish...

you can do it..
to make it look pretty..


BUT IF U WANTED A PRETTY FISH GO BUY ONE. DONT CHANGE THIS ONE!

same with snakes.

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## Derrick13

> Denial, while I use your quote, this is not directed only at you.
> 
> And we should just accept this? 
> 
> I suppose there is no point in trying to make a difference, you know, buck up for what is personally believed in and actually representing those beliefs whether or not anyone else agrees with or condones them, no, I don't suppose, given the fact that "as a whole" humans are hypocrits, anyone of us should try to make a difference with our personal selves, what we do and say today versus tomorrow and consistency despite group or surroundings.
> 
> Yeah, that would be a lot harder than just going with the flow. 
> 
> Best do it the easy way and not bother to struggle, to hope, to seek, something better than what we see everyday, to strive for a dream or ideal that is not really feasible given human nature.....sigh.
> ...


Interesting stuff, I myself love talking( not argueing) about philosophy, however I do not think it should be brought up in this particular post.


I fully support professionals owning hot snakes to milk them and make antivenom, however I do not support individual privet owning of hot animals. Can you imagine how sad it would have been if that snake used in that gang fight was hot?

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## wilomn

> Can you imagine how sad it would have been if that snake used in that gang fight was hot?


Would it be worse than using a gun? Do you feel guns should not be owned by anyone who can legally obtain one?

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## FIEND_FO_LYFE

> Would it be worse than using a gun? Do you feel guns should not be owned by anyone who can legally obtain one?


its worst than a gun on the level that it makes snakes look bad.
its not because its not a weapon.
its like a dog attack, except media will blow the ish out of the water, and make all snakes look like man eaters.

just because u can own a gun, doesnt mean u should.
same with a snake.

i can go buy 10 retics right now.
should i? not really...

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## Derrick13

> Would it be worse than using a gun? Do you feel guns should not be owned by anyone who can legally obtain one?



When I turn twenty one I'm going to apply for a concealed weapons liscense, for my protection. It is worse considering the gun is a lifeless object and the snake is living.  A snake being used as a weapon, wether its venomus or not causes stress on the snake. I do support gun ownership, however I also support the idea of people owning weapons only if they can pass a government class on the subject. There is too many morons out there. Perhaps afew liscensed professionals should be aloud to keep venomus snakes for home study as long as they are monitored frequently.

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## DutchHerp

> yes i do see the point with cats and dogs getting fixxed.
> BUT, that procidure, isnt changing the way of life for the animal.
> they still can mate, just not produce.


Not sure if this is true.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to get it up if I got castrated.

Later, Matt

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## Denial

> When I turn twenty one I'm going to apply for a concealed weapons liscense, for my protection. It is worse considering the gun is a lifeless object and the snake is living.  A snake being used as a weapon, wether its venomus or not causes stress on the snake. I do support gun ownership, however I also support the idea of people owning weapons only if they can pass a government class on the subject. There is too many morons out there. Perhaps afew liscensed professionals should be aloud to keep venomus snakes for home study as long as they are monitored frequently.


The world is full of morons and no matter what there will always be people that own guns that use them for gangs and crimes and there will always be people that own animals they shouldnt really own either but that doesnt mean that all the good people that own guns and exotic animals should be punished for that. I feel about venomous snakes the exact same way I feel about large constrictors. They do have the potential to be VERY dangerous but its all in the hands of the individual that owns them. If you keep them properly and handle them properly you should never have a problem. THey make so many tools nowadays for venomous snakes that if you wanted you really wouldnt ever actually have to even touch the snake. Theres all kinds of hooks, tubes, trap boxes , bags.

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## FIEND_FO_LYFE

> Not sure if this is true.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to get it up if I got castrated.
> 
> Later, Matt


dude what VET do you go to?

they remove the Testes on the animals.
not the accually sex organ.
WE "HUMANS" get it done with no ill effects.

women get the're tubes tide, men get the snip snip.
you can still have sex, and SOME can get it up...
for those whom cant they have Viagra.

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## DutchHerp

> dude what VET do you go to?
> 
> they remove the Testes on the animals.
> not the accually sex organ.
> WE "HUMANS" get it done with no ill effects.
> 
> women get the're tubes tide, men get the snip snip.
> you can still have sex, and SOME can get it up...
> for those whom cant they have Viagra.


With a snip snip you still got your balls and your testosterone.

I wish you luck if you got actually CASTRATED.

Main Entry:	cas·trate 
Pronunciation: \ˈkas-ˌtrāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cas·trat·ed; cas·trat·ing
Etymology: Latin castratus, past participle of castrare; akin to Greek keazein to split, Sanskrit śasati he slaughters
Date: 1554
1 : to render impotent or deprive of vitality especially by psychological means
*2 a : to deprive of the testes : geld b : to deprive of the ovaries : spay*
 castrate noun
 cas·tra·tion  \kas-ˈtrā-shən\ noun
 cas·tra·tor  \-ˌtrā-tər\ noun
 cas·tra·to·ry  \ˈkas-trə-ˌtȯr-ē\ adjective

Later, Matt

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## FIEND_FO_LYFE

> With a snip snip you still got your balls and your testosterone.
> 
> I wish you luck if you got actually CASTRATED.
> 
> Main Entry:	cas·trate 
> Pronunciation: \ˈkas-ˌtrāt\
> Function: transitive verb
> Inflected Form(s): cas·trat·ed; cas·trat·ing
> Etymology: Latin castratus, past participle of castrare; akin to Greek keazein to split, Sanskrit śasati he slaughters
> ...



i know what it means.
but what im saying is, you could still get it up.
the semen from your testes doesnt make u get it up.


so, im either missing somthing, or your wrong, you could get it up...

unless you need viagra.

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## Skiploder

> i know what it means.
> but what im saying is, you could still get it up.
> the semen from your testes doesnt make u get it up.
> 
> 
> so, im either missing somthing, or your wrong, you could get it up...
> 
> unless you need viagra.


You are missing something.

Being castrated is different than having a vasectomy.  Re-read Matt's last post and absorb it............

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## FIEND_FO_LYFE

i get what he saying, even if the testes are removed, you can still "get it up" though...

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## DutchHerp

> i know what it means.
> but what im saying is, you could still get it up.
> the semen from your testes doesnt make u get it up.
> 
> 
> so, im either missing somthing, or your wrong, you could get it up...
> 
> unless you need viagra.


Without testicles you don't have testosterone, so no beard, or hard-ons.

Actually, I may be wrong, but I think the amounts of estrogen actually make you more feminine.

Later, Matt

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## FIEND_FO_LYFE

> Without testicles you don't have testosterone, so no beard, or hard-ons.
> 
> Actually, I may be wrong, but I think the amounts of estrogen actually make you more feminine.
> 
> Later, Matt


i get where your going, but you can still get it up.
and wouldnt a "snip snip" and castration do the same thing to a male body?

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## DutchHerp

> i get where your going, but you can still get it up.
> and wouldnt a "snip snip" and castration do the same thing to a male body?


A snip snip just prevent the semen from going to your urethra - I think.

It doesn't stop testosterone and other hormone production that also happens in your balls.

Those hormones raise it for you.

Later, Matt

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## FIEND_FO_LYFE

> A snip snip just prevent the semen from going to your urethra - I think.
> 
> It doesn't stop testosterone and other hormone production that also happens in your balls.
> 
> Those hormones raise it for you.
> 
> Later, Matt


AHHH

ok, if your correct, i see your point.
ok, thanks Matt.
lol sorry, im a slow learner.

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## DutchHerp

> AHHH
> 
> ok, if your correct, i see your point.
> ok, thanks Matt.
> lol sorry, im a slow learner.


Ah, no problem man.

 :ROFL: 

Later, Matt

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## Skiploder

> i get what he saying, even if the testes are removed, you can still "get it up" though...


Tell you what............

Give it a whirl.......if you can still get aroused afterwards I will buy you a donut and admit I was wrong.

Deal?

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## FIEND_FO_LYFE

> Ah, no problem man.
> 
> 
> 
> Later, Matt


haha




> Tell you what............
> 
> Give it a whirl.......if you can still get aroused afterwards I will buy you a donut and admit I was wrong.
> 
> Deal?


dude, hecks no.
im 18, and my mom wants kids... youd have to fight her for em lol

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## 4theSNAKElady

I petted a leucistic cobra once at a show that was a venomoid....and that's all I'm going to say about that.  :Wink:

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## icygirl

> There are some VERY cool hot snakes out there. Just because you have no interest does not invalidate that of others.


I didn't say that it's not valid to have an interest in hots. I recently saw some at a show, and they were some really unbelievable animals that can't compare to any other non-venomous. But there are so many hot-keepers out there who keep the venom intact. Even if I was in love with hots myself, if I'm not comfortable handling them, I'll leave it to the experts rather than forcing the snake through this procedure which may be harmful to it.

Comparing spay/neuter of mammals to removing venom glands is comparing apples and oranges. And for the record I don't support declawing cats or removing vocal cords of dogs.

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## wilomn

> I didn't say that it's not valid to have an interest in hots. I recently saw some at a show, and they were some really unbelievable animals that can't compare to any other non-venomous. But there are so many hot-keepers out there who keep the venom intact. Even if I was in love with hots myself, if I'm not comfortable handling them, I'll leave it to the experts rather than forcing the snake through this procedure which may be harmful to it.
> 
> Comparing spay/neuter of mammals to removing venom glands is comparing apples and oranges. And for the record I don't support declawing cats or removing vocal cords of dogs.


Elective surgery that is not necessary, hence elective, is very comparable.

The fact that one prevents envenomation and the other prevents procreation puts them in exactly the same category, non-necessary invasive surgery to make it easier for humans to deal with the keeping of the creatures surgically altered.

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## jparker1167

> As to the argument that venom plays no role in the digestion of prey items: that's based on an ASSumption - not any real scientific evidence.  That ASSumption is a WAG -  postulated because several species of venomous snakes will eat dead prey without it injecting it with venom.


no evidence, what about when venomous snakes are feed frozen and they digest the prey ? does that not prove that venom may help with digestion but may not be needed. 

why should i have to prove that i can keep venomous and the person down the road can go out and get a dog that is known for attacking people.  not that i think its the dogs fault. the owner should be responsible for their actions. if you cant handle the animal wait until you can.

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## 4theSNAKElady

I think that memoving the venom glands is the same thing as declawing cats, or memoving the vocal cords of a dog. The animal is just surgically altered to make it "better" to manage it or easier for people to keep. People have been surgically altering dogs and cats for centuries, getting tails and ears docked and cropped. This practice is widely excepted, but not absolutely necessary. If enough people wanted to enjoy handling a venomous animal, which has been altered to be "less dangerous", it may be something that becomes more accepted or popular.Its just simply altering the animal for human use. It's not necessary at all, but it could still happen.

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## Skiploder

> no evidence, what about when venomous snakes are feed frozen and they digest the prey ? *does that not prove that venom may help with digestion but may not be needed.*


Short answer:

Yes.

Long answer:

Vipers venoms, for example, are very rich in toxins that have a proteolytic mechanism - in other words they begin the digestion of proteins.  These venoms are digestive fluids that begin their work outside of the body.

Other venoms - three fingers - for example, are used for prey immobilization only.  They disrupt nerve transmissions and are inert in terms of digestive enzymes.

I believe there is a reason why vipers developed proteolytic enzymes in their venom.  Does that mean that a viper cannot digest a meal if they are rendered a venomoid?  Obviously, the answer is no.

On the other hand that doesn't prove that venom doesn't play a crucial role in digestion.  The studies that have been done in this regard have been inconclusive and sometimes contradict each other.  

For example - we know that these venoms are used for pre-digestion.  What we haven't figured out is how the internal digestive process is adversely affected (sort and long term) if the venom is not utilized.

There seems to be another benefit of the snakes retaining their venom glands.  There is some data on the anti-bacterial qualities of venom. During the process of digestion (which is temperature dependent) the snake can be at risk of baterial infection from bateria like E. coli and Pseudomona. 


The existing studies have focused somewhat on digestion time - in other words does the envenomation speed up the digestion time.  What hasn't been show is the quality of the digestion - does envenomation increase the efficiency of digestion in terms of utilization and absorption of useable nutrients.  

The study that outlined the anti-bacterial properties of venom in digestion suggested that in some Australian elapids, envenomation actually increased the length of the digestive process.

So maybe the studies focusing on speed of digestion were missing the point - maybe not.

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