# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Pastel Butter x Spider (Maternal Incubation)

## meowmeowkazoo

I'll be using this thread to keep a record of Charlotte's maternal incubation. She laid today, and I will be offering her a small meal next week after she has settled.

Substrate is coconut husk and sphagnum moss. Charlotte's body temperature tonight is 89.7 degrees. She has at least three eggs, possibly four or five.

----------

Ajdag (03-20-2014),_AlexisFitzy_ (02-20-2014),_Alicia_ (02-20-2014),_Andybill_ (02-20-2014),ball*pythons (03-21-2014),*bcr229* (02-22-2014),_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014),_HypoLyf_ (02-21-2014),JustBitten (02-25-2014),_Michelle1221_ (02-27-2014),_Mr. Misha_ (02-20-2014),PitOnTheProwl (02-21-2014),_REBELLMORPH_ (02-21-2014),RockNRollProcelain (02-23-2014),sakura_noir (04-24-2014),sho220 (02-26-2014),_Slim_ (02-20-2014),snakesRkewl (02-21-2014),_SnowShredder_ (02-22-2014),_sorraia_ (02-27-2014),_steve_r34_ (02-20-2014),_Wapadi_ (02-20-2014)

----------


## Mr. Misha

Looking forward to your updates and your findings. I want to do maternal incubation myself next year.

Good luck!

Sent using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-20-2014)

----------


## Nismogizmos

She's a beaut! 

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-20-2014)

----------


## SteveySingle

She's a great looking girl! I am going to follow along for many Charlotte updates over the next couple months, keep us posted!

----------

Fang13 (02-24-2014),_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-20-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Thanks everyone.  :Smile:  I feel that there's a big shortage of information and pictures on maternal incubation, so I'll be doing my best to thoroughly document things.

----------

_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## Slim

I'll be watching this thread with interest.  Charlotte is a hottie  :Good Job:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-20-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

I misted the substrate near the front of the cage, and moved her water dish so it's about six inches from her "nest" area. I may move it a little further away to avoid excess water getting on or under the eggs.

Last night and this morning her body temperature dropped to between 88.5 and 89.3 degrees. She has the eggs so tightly coiled that I can't see any eggshell at all. Probably working great for keeping in the humidity.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (02-20-2014)

----------


## Slim

How does she react to you moving things in the tub?  Showing any signs of "protective momma syndrome"?

----------


## rascal_rascal_99

Congrats and best of luck with the clutch!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-22-2014)

----------


## REBELLMORPH

Congrats!! :Good Job:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-22-2014)

----------


## PitOnTheProwl

Congrats and I am interested in watching this as well.
Please keep it all in one post so we don't miss anything.  :Wink:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-22-2014)

----------


## 4theSNAKElady

That's so neat! I'll be watching as well. I'm afraid to let any of mine maternally incubate.

Sent from my Z795G using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-22-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> How does she react to you moving things in the tub?  Showing any signs of "protective momma syndrome"?


She seems fine with it, honestly. I moved her water dish away a little today, and temp gunned her. She will flick her tongue at me, but doesn't move otherwise. I'm trying to only check once in the morning and once at night, and be very careful when I move things.

----------

_Slim_ (02-23-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Congrats and I am interested in watching this as well.
> Please keep it all in one post so we don't miss anything.


I wish I could edit the original post to post updates, but I am settling for posting everything within this thread.



Temps still reading steady at 88.3 - 89.5 degrees.

----------


## FireStorm

I love seeing more and more people giving maternal incubation a shot. Personally, I love watching females incubate their own eggs. She looks like she is doing great :Smile:

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Still doing well. Misted and temp-gunned. Will offer a small meal this week.

----------


## RockNRollProcelain

Awesome! I'm considering having a girl Maternal Incubate soon =] I like the idea of it a lot, so I'm glad to see your posts! Definitely keep us updated on everything!!!

----------


## RuGGeR

Subscribed!!! Please keep this thread updated....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Charlotte's temperature is 88 today. I offered a weaned soft fur (she usually eats jumbo adults), and she took it. One of the coolest things I've ever seen. Eggs are slightly wrinkled so I'll be adding more water to the substrate later today.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (02-24-2014),_Alicia_ (03-01-2014),_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014),_Slim_ (02-26-2014),_Wapadi_ (02-27-2014),_Wes_ (02-24-2014)

----------


## Marissa@MKmorphs

It is going to be so cool watching your journey with her maternal incubation!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-24-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Charlotte's temperature is 88.5 today. Eggs are completely covered again.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

House was warmer than usual today, so I went to check on the snakes. Charlotte had uncovered the eggs for the first time since eating, and may have even moved the nest forward a little. Hard to say, but she's partially on the substrate now when before she was tucked into the bare spot.

Correlation doesn't equal causation, but I think she may have done this to lower the temperature of the nest.

----------

_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014),_Wapadi_ (02-27-2014)

----------


## Slim

> I offered a weaned soft fur (she usually eats jumbo adults), and she took it. One of the coolest things I've ever seen.


I can't believe I missed feeding day!  It takes real talent to eat a rat and stay coiled on the eggs at the same time!!!

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (02-27-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Somewhat concerned because Charlotte is temping at 85-86 today, which is the lowest it's been. I think this is also evidence that she moved the nest forward when it was too warm though, so it's possible she could move it back onto the heat tape if needed. Will check again later.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (02-27-2014),_h20hunter_ (02-27-2014),_Wes_ (02-27-2014)

----------


## h20hunter

Jumping in to follow along. Very cool.

----------


## Wes

> Somewhat concerned because Charlotte is temping at 85-86 today, which is the lowest it's been. I think this is also evidence that she moved the nest forward when it was too warm though, so it's possible she could move it back onto the heat tape if needed. Will check again later.


I'm sure mama knows what she is doing and those eggs will be fine. :thumbup:

sent from my galaxy note II using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-28-2014),_Wapadi_ (02-27-2014)

----------


## Mr. Misha

Speaking of mama knows best, is this Charlotte's first clutch?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

----------


## ZacharyPoller

Awesome thread I will be following this now good luck 

Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-28-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Speaking of mama knows best, is this Charlotte's first clutch?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk


Yes, this is her first clutch.  :Smile:

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (02-28-2014)

----------


## HVani

This is amazing!

Following  :Smile:   :Snake:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-01-2014)

----------


## FireStorm

FWIW, all of our females maternally incubate, and we heat our room to 85F with no supplemental heat. So I don't think the 85-86 temp is cause for concern. In addition to moving the eggs, females are capable of raising the temps slightly by themselves through thermogenesis (basically, females use muscle twitching to generate heat). If she feels like the eggs need to be warmer, she can get them there :Smile: . And you are right, females will loosen their coils if they want to drop the temp of the nest. We had a/c unit go out once, and our room hit 87-88 while we were fixing it (only for a short time). All of our females loosened up or left the nest altogether. Once the temps dropped, they all went back to normal.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (03-01-2014),_Alicia_ (03-06-2014),_dkspftw_ (03-24-2014),_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-01-2014),_Slim_ (02-28-2014),_Wes_ (02-28-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> FWIW, all of our females maternally incubate, and we heat our room to 85F with no supplemental heat. So I don't think the 85-86 temp is cause for concern. In addition to moving the eggs, females are capable of raising the temps slightly by themselves through thermogenesis (basically, females use muscle twitching to generate heat). If she feels like the eggs need to be warmer, she can get them there. And you are right, females will loosen their coils if they want to drop the temp of the nest. We had a/c unit go out once, and our room hit 87-88 while we were fixing it (only for a short time). All of our females loosened up or left the nest altogether. Once the temps dropped, they all went back to normal.


I have read somewhere that ball pythons aren't able to raise their temperature with thermogenesis like other pythons are.

But the temperature of the eggs is fine right now. Up at 87.5-88.5 last time I checked.

----------


## FireStorm

> I have read somewhere that ball pythons aren't able to raise their temperature with thermogenesis like other pythons are.
> 
> But the temperature of the eggs is fine right now. Up at 87.5-88.5 last time I checked.


I have found papers saying that they can, and papers saying that they can't.....I have also found papers that say that carpets and diamonds can't/don't use shivering shivering thermogenesis, but I have seen videos of them doing it. There are even some old papers that say ball pythons will not maternally incubate. So I think there is some really bad info out there...I have been trying to figure out how I could get my females to keep a thermometer probe in with the eggs. I would like to log the temp range of the eggs. Since we use only ambient heat, I am curious if the females are actually maintaining the egg temp above the ambient.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-01-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> I have found papers saying that they can, and papers saying that they can't.....I have also found papers that say that carpets and diamonds can't/don't use shivering shivering thermogenesis, but I have seen videos of them doing it. There are even some old papers that say ball pythons will not maternally incubate. So I think there is some really bad info out there...I have been trying to figure out how I could get my females to keep a thermometer probe in with the eggs. I would like to log the temp range of the eggs. Since we use only ambient heat, I am curious if the females are actually maintaining the egg temp above the ambient.


Yeah, I've also seen a lot of conflicting information. Part of the reason I am doing maternal incubation myself. I think it's important to contribute as much accurate information as possible.

I've just been using a temp gun on the female herself, which seems fairly accurate. When the eggs are showing they seem to show the same temperature her body is at.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Today I offered another meal, and was able to get a better shot of the eggs and an updated count. There are at least six eggs, I strongly suspect there are seven or eight. Not bad for your first clutch Charlotte, not bad at all!

The soft fur managed to get a hind leg free, and kicked one of the eggs multiple times. When it did this, the shell gave slightly and then resumed its original shape. Yes it was heart-stopping to watch, but the eggs (and Charlotte) appear to be uninjured.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (03-02-2014),_Alicia_ (03-03-2014),_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014),_Slim_ (03-05-2014),_Wes_ (03-02-2014)

----------


## Fidget

What a great thread - thank you! Best of luck to you and Charlotte. Sounds like everything's going well so far.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-02-2014)

----------


## MorphMaster

This is awesome!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-02-2014)

----------


## BHReptiles

This is awesome! I want to try this sometime. Maybe I'll let a girl go "all natural" next season just to try it out.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-02-2014)

----------


## TurkeyPython

I was planning on trying this when I breed my girl. I don't really trust technology that much but I do trust mama to know what's best for her eggs and adjust.

----------


## TurkeyPython

Subscribed

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Thanks everyone. I went to check back on Charlotte and she had the eggs fully covered again, but looked interested in more food. I think I will try offering every 5 days or so, just small single meals. Next time I should have some rat pups that are roughly the right size. She doesn't usually take rats, but she might right now.

----------


## BHReptiles

Now is the perfect time to try rats! I hope she takes one for you.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Today marks the two week point for the eggs. Only 7-8 weeks to go.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------

PitOnTheProwl (03-05-2014)

----------


## Mr. Misha

Very cool. Don't worry, this time will fly by quick. Glad to see she's doing well.

Has she been lying on the eggs all this time or has she abandoned them for a little bit to slither around?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-20-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Very cool. Don't worry, this time will fly by quick. Glad to see she's doing well.
> 
> Has she been lying on the eggs all this time or has she abandoned them for a little bit to slither around?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk


She's always been on the eggs. She partially uncoils to cool them or to kill/eat food, but even then she has them wrapped. Granted she's just in a 41 quart, but she shows no inclination to leave the eggs at all.

----------


## RuGGeR

> FWIW, all of our females maternally incubate, and we heat our room to 85F with no supplemental heat. So I don't think the 85-86 temp is cause for concern. In addition to moving the eggs, females are capable of raising the temps slightly by themselves through thermogenesis (basically, females use muscle twitching to generate heat). If she feels like the eggs need to be warmer, she can get them there. And you are right, females will loosen their coils if they want to drop the temp of the nest. We had a/c unit go out once, and our room hit 87-88 while we were fixing it (only for a short time). All of our females loosened up or left the nest altogether. Once the temps dropped, they all went back to normal.


I am really interested in his maternal incubation & it seem to me that u have the most experience... Do u have pictures & Info's where u can educate us more on this.... Maybe start a new thread....? I am very sure lots are interested in this...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

----------


## Alicia

This is an awesome thread, love it! So looking forward to the updates  :Smile: 




> Yeah, I've also seen a lot of conflicting information. Part of the reason I am doing maternal incubation myself. I think it's important to contribute as much accurate information as possible.
> 
> I've just been using a temp gun on the female herself, which seems fairly accurate. When the eggs are showing they seem to show the same temperature her body is at.



I know this is kinda late, but on female ball pythons raising the temperature of their broods . . . I think, maybe they can. Most if not all of the carpet subspecies can, so can a few (most?) other pythons. (Actually, I've never seen literally suggestions diamonds specifically _can't_, and am pretty curious who wrote that?)

I went MI last year with a retained sperm clutch I hadn't planned on, enjoyed the heck out of it, and will do it again. Last summer was very cool here. Temps in my studio, where the snakes are, frequently dipped to the low 70s and upper 60s. I had to grab my notes for this, but on June 12th, the lowest temperature recorded in the room was 67 degrees. The ambient temperature in the cage was 72, with a reading of 75 closer to the nest. Dahlia never let the probe stay with the eggs, so I don't know what temperature they were actually experience. This was Day 10. Granted, she nested half on, half off, her heat source. The eggs still began pipping 63 days, which is what I get in the incubator.

So, I dunno. Figured it wouldn't hurt to throw that out there.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-06-2014)

----------


## RuGGeR

> This is an awesome thread, love it! So looking forward to the updates 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know this is kinda late, but on female ball pythons raising the temperature of their broods . . . I think, maybe they can. Most if not all of the carpet subspecies can, so can a few (most?) other pythons. (Actually, I've never seen literally suggestions diamonds specifically _can't_, and am pretty curious who wrote that?)
> 
> I went MI last year with a retained sperm clutch I hadn't planned on, enjoyed the heck out of it, and will do it again. Last summer was very cool here. Temps in my studio, where the snakes are, frequently dipped to the low 70s and upper 60s. I had to grab my notes for this, but on June 12th, the lowest temperature recorded in the room was 67 degrees. The ambient temperature in the cage was 72, with a reading of 75 closer to the nest. Dahlia never let the probe stay with the eggs, so I don't know what temperature they were actually experience. This was Day 10. Granted, she nested half on, half off, her heat source. The eggs still began pipping 63 days, which is what I get in the incubator.
> 
> So, I dunno. Figured it wouldn't hurt to throw that out there.


What substrate were u using? And how high humidity did u aim for?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Alicia

> What substrate were u using? And how high humidity did u aim for?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mix of sphagnum moss and cypress mulch, the nest was all sphagnum (she pushed it all aside, anyway). Followed the advice in Quiet Tempest's sticky and aimed for a RH >70% . . . It ended up being around 75-77% for most of the incubation.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-06-2014)

----------


## RuGGeR

How bout cleaning? When they continue to feed, they continue to poo.... No cleaning?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> How bout cleaning? When they continue to feed, they continue to poo.... No cleaning?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


How often they poop depends on a lot of things. Hatchlings don't poop that often at all because they are using so much of the mouse/rat to grow. I imagine a similar thing will happen with Charlotte. She depleted her body a lot by laying eggs, so much of the food she eats will be used up with little waste left over.

That said, she's been very passive with me messing around in the tub. She may just be used to it because I do it so often, or it may be a temperament thing. I don't think I'll need to clean the tub while she is incubating, but if I do then it shouldn't be an issue.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

New update. I didn't feed a rat this time because they still need another week to grow, but this time she killed the soft fur away from the eggs entirely, which was new and interesting.



I checked on her afterward and found a VERY excited snake that was VERY interested in more food. It was scary but awesome, lol. After I recorded this I checked back again, and she had wrapped the eggs but is still on high alert for more food.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (03-10-2014),_Alicia_ (03-10-2014),kikkimea (03-15-2014),_Zedd_ (03-15-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Charlotte is still doing great, has the eggs well wrapped. She's still hungry so I'll probably feed her a bit more often.

----------

RuGGeR (03-12-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Day 23 of incubation. Still a hungry momma, still incubating like a champ. Temperatures seem to stay around 87.5 - 88.5 degrees.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (03-14-2014),_Alicia_ (03-14-2014),*bcr229* (03-14-2014),_Zedd_ (03-14-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Today I offered Charlotte a weaned rat. She became extremely excited, enough that she partially uncoiled and began roaming the tub. She ALMOST grabbed it multiple times, but stopped at the last second. I think if I scent the rat first she will probably take it, but it's still a little frustrating.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  I wish I'd had a weaned rat available for her very first meal.

----------


## kikkimea

Awesome video!  :Good Job:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-15-2014)

----------


## gaiaeagle

This is very neat. She looks like she is taking good care of her eggs. BTW, my female spider ball is also named Charlotte.  :Wink:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-15-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Very happy tonight!

Attempted to feed Charlotte a weaned rat again, because I'd like to get her on those instead of mice/soft furs. She would not take it, but did get excited and started sniffing around.

Then, I had a light bulb moment. I took the rat out, and sprinkled some used soft fur bedding in her cage. I waited a few minutes to make sure she smelled soft furs, then reintroduced the weaned rat and she SLAMMED it.

Eggs are still doing well, and this is Charlotte's fourth meal while maternally incubating.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (03-17-2014),_Alicia_ (03-17-2014),_Mr. Misha_ (03-17-2014),_SnowShredder_ (03-20-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

And here's a random pic of how I'm keeping track of egg temperatures.

----------


## Mr. Misha

Its awesome to see that she's eating for you. 

Good job on keeping up with the updates. Really excited to follow this journey and for the day the little ones will hatch.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-17-2014)

----------


## steve_r34

Whats the humidiy in there?

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Whats the humidiy in there?


Not sure. I tend to go by how the eggs look, but still keeping the floor beneath her and the eggs from becoming wet.

----------


## steve_r34

If u can get a read on it lmk please .. thanks

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Subscribing!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-17-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Charlotte is not impressed with how slowly I am giving her rodents.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Every 5-7 days, how cruel!

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (03-18-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Also, I have an accurite that was apparently sitting on a shelf, brand new in the box and all. So I will try setting it up soon to get a humidity reading.

----------


## AlexisFitzy

> Charlotte is not impressed with how slowly I am giving her rodents.  Every 5-7 days, how cruel!


Lmao what an adorable picture! She looks like she's saying "Can't you see I'm starving here!?!" Lol I hate that look. I always look back and say "You ate 5-7 days ago, your fine lol" they never like that answer :p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-18-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Today the eggs looked pretty dented, so I added more water to the substrate. Charlotte was loosely coiled around them, although the temperatures are not unusually high. I worry she might be losing interest in incubating them.

She was acting hungry, so I offered a weaned/small rat to see if she would take it unscented. Unfortunately it was an aggressive/curious one that immediately ran up to her and spooked her. She became very distressed and started quickly circling around the eggs, trying to escape from the rat. After a little chase I was able to catch it, and removed it. I feel bad for scaring her like that. I'm giving her 30-60 minutes to calm down before I check on her again to make sure that she and the eggs are okay.

I probably won't offer food again for a couple of weeks, and keep disturbances to a minimum. I don't want her to become so stressed that she leaves the eggs.

If she shows any other signs of losing interest, I will fire up the incubator to be on standby.

----------

_SnowShredder_ (03-20-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Checked on her just now and she has the eggs properly coiled again. Man was I stressed about that. I am going to check her again in the morning, but be as minimally invasive as possible. I've gotten a bit careless with how far I pull out the tub and how gratuitous I am with picture taking. This was a good reminder that even though she has been very tolerant, I should be more careful and patient, and respectful of her space.

----------

_Slim_ (03-20-2014),_SnowShredder_ (03-20-2014),_Zedd_ (03-20-2014)

----------


## Fidget

It looks like she - and you - are doing a great job. This thread will be my lifeline when I get my first clutch. Thank you for sharing your ups and downs.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-20-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Here's a picture of how the eggs looked last night before I added more water to the substrate. Charlotte is more tightly coiled around them today, and temps look good.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

As an added note, the method I am using for adding water to the substrate is using a spray bottle with the nozzle turned to make a jet instead of a spray/mist. In this way I can direct a pretty accurate stream of water to the substrate near Charlotte without getting it on her or near the eggs.

----------


## kikkimea

Amazing!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-21-2014)

----------


## ball*pythons

This is a great thread!! Good luck Charlotte!!! <3

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-21-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

The eggs are looking less dehydrated today, but I'm going to continue misting on a daily basis for now.

Charlotte is still doing great. A tad restless and hungry, but otherwise good. Temperatures are good at 87-88 degrees. I stirred the substrate a bit to break up a tiny bit of mold.

----------


## JPR

This is such an awesome project. Can't wait to see how it turns out!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-23-2014)

----------


## Phantomtip

Wow, I'm very interested in maternal incubation in captivity.  Do you think her temperament will change after doing it instead of pulling the eggs?  When I finally get my head around the breeding process I would love to start doing maternal and only have an incubator as back up in case something goes really wrong.  I've been following this thread since you started it. She looks like a great momma.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-23-2014)

----------


## TurkeyPython

How long has it been since she laid?

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> How long has it been since she laid?


She laid the day I started the thread, so I believe today is day 32.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Wow, I'm very interested in maternal incubation in captivity.  Do you think her temperament will change after doing it instead of pulling the eggs?  When I finally get my head around the breeding process I would love to start doing maternal and only have an incubator as back up in case something goes really wrong.  I've been following this thread since you started it. She looks like a great momma.


I think that doing maternal incubation is less stressful on the mother. I think that despite popular belief, females are more likely to eat if you let them keep their eggs, as opposed to pulling the eggs and leaving them with a strong incubation instinct but nothing to incubate.

I can say that while on eggs she's been a much more aggressive feeder, more than she has ever been before. I'm not sure if that feeding habit will stick around after the eggs hatch. Other than that I haven't noticed a temperament change.

----------

Phantomtip (03-26-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Eggs are looking even more hydrated, and Charlotte still has them wrapped well. Hopefully the temporary dehydration didn't harm them at all. Better for them to be slightly dehydrated than to become wet, but either way I'll try setting up my accurite today to see what the humidity is actually at in there. I'll put the probe in the back of the tub if possible, to avoid it getting sprayed.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Yikes!

Today I misted the substrate and refreshed Charlotte's water. She uncoiled when I did this, and I got a picture of some pretty brown eggs.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure if this is from the substrate or if there's something wrong with them. Whatever it is, it has me pretty freaked out.  :Sad: 

Temperature seems fine at 85-86 degrees. I think Charlotte relaxed her coils in response to the misting. I know that females will usually let bad eggs roll out of the nest, so I am hoping she will continue to incubate them.

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Awwwe! Any chance you'd be able to candle them?

I'm reasonably certain that coloration is from the substrate. I know that sphagnum moss dyes eggs like it ain't no thang. They look good, if they were bad they would STINK! And be funky colors like green or pink (that's what I've seen anyways)

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-24-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Awwwe! Any chance you'd be able to candle them?
> 
> I'm reasonably certain that coloration is from the substrate. I know that sphagnum moss dyes eggs like it ain't no thang. They look good, if they were bad they would STINK! And be funky colors like green or pink (that's what I've seen anyways)


I don't want to risk stressing Charlotte out by candling, after that rat incident a few days ago. I think if they are bad she will let them roll out of the nest. They don't seem like they are rotten or bad, they just look like little potatoes or loaves of bread.  :Confused:  So far I've got lots of people reassuring me, so I am feeling a bit less freaked out. Just wasn't a good thing to see after having a nightmare about snake eggs last night.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------

Phantomtip (03-26-2014)

----------


## sorraia

In my very inexperienced and very novice opinion, I'd call those eggs dyed as well. I imagine in the wild it would be an advantage for eggs to pick up the colors of their substrate (whatever that may be) and blend in a little more, even if the snake is tucked away somewhere hidden.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-24-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> In my very inexperienced and very novice opinion, I'd call those eggs dyed as well. I imagine in the wild it would be an advantage for eggs to pick up the colors of their substrate (whatever that may be) and blend in a little more, even if the snake is tucked away somewhere hidden.


That's a very good point. The ability of the eggs to blend in with their surroundings would probably be helpful for the times when the mother needs to briefly leave the nest.

----------


## SquamishSerpents

> I don't want to risk stressing Charlotte out by candling, after that rat incident a few days ago. I think if they are bad she will let them roll out of the nest. They don't seem like they are rotten or bad, they just look like little potatoes or loaves of bread.  So far I've got lots of people reassuring me, so I am feeling a bit less freaked out. Just wasn't a good thing to see after having a nightmare about snake eggs last night.


Maybe next time you feed her you can sneak in while she's constricted, if you're still worried. But I wouldn't be. 

And OH tell me about snake-related nightmares. Ugh.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-24-2014)

----------


## scterial

I'm maternally incubating right now as well. When I first candled the eggs, one was mostly yellow, and to my expectations, it went bad. I just took it out today since it was turning blue. However, an egg next to it has a little bit of the bluish color on the top. Is this something to worry about? Also the eggs are right on top of the heat pad. Is that okay?

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> I'm maternally incubating right now as well. When I first candled the eggs, one was mostly yellow, and to my expectations, it went bad. I just took it out today since it was turning blue. However, an egg next to it has a little bit of the bluish color on the top. Is this something to worry about? Also the eggs are right on top of the heat pad. Is that okay?


Should be fine, depending on what temperature the heat pad is.

The blue might just be a little a mold, but hard to say.

----------


## Wes

What day are the eggs at now?

sent from my galaxy note II using Tapatalk

----------


## scterial

Sorry for bombing your thread!!  :Sad:  The eggs are at day 12 now. She laid a clutch of 7 eggs with 2 rollouts and 1 infertile egg (the one I just threw away yesterday). Her remaining 4 eggs look good though! And temps are always 87-90F with 80% humidity.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Today is Day 37 for the eggs.

Charlotte is leaning to one side but has the eggs completely wrapped. I've been a bit more aggressive with humidity lately, because a day or two ago the eggs seemed...smaller? Somehow?

Sometimes I think I should rename this thread: MMK's Descent into Insanity.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Edit: Will add a new picture of Charlotte later today.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (03-28-2014),_Alicia_ (03-28-2014),_Archimedes_ (03-28-2014),Baileybones0413 (03-29-2014),_blackfish707_ (03-29-2014),Phantomtip (03-29-2014),_sorraia_ (03-28-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Pictures taken after misting, which caused Charlotte to uncoil.

Eggs are looking brown, dented, and weird.  :Confused:  The shells feel stiff, but will give a little when gentle pressure is applied.

The discoloration seems fine, but I worry about the eggs being too dehydrated. I added some wet sphagnum moss to the back corner of the tub, so it should be on the heating element.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

I removed her water dish, pushed the substrate up around the nest, and added a 6 quart tub half full of water to the front of her tub. (Thanks to Jerry at SRK for being helpful when I'm panicking, LOL).

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Day 38.

Humidity is doing better, but I couldn't get a good look at the eggs.

----------


## Slim

She's looking great!  I wonder if the discoloration of the eggs is normal with MI?

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-29-2014)

----------


## SquamishSerpents

I think the big dish was a good move  :Smile:  she looks so awesome curled up like that!

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

The discoloration seems to be from the sphagnum moss, which I am told will dye lots of things.

And yeah, Jerry had a great idea with the 6 quart. I totally had a panic moment when I couldn't find any empty 6 quarts, then I realized my empty hatchling rack was sitting right there in front of me.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

And a little more of my sanity quietly slips away.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Eggs are looking better today. More plump. Hopefully the 6 quart of water continues to help.

----------


## blackfish707

This is utterly fascinating. I'm so excited for you, I can't stand it!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (03-30-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Day 39. Egg temperature today is at 89 degrees.

I tried offering her a prekilled soft fur based on a suggestion from a friend.

Unfortunately she wouldn't take it. I tried leaving it in with her, but she ignored it. Today I offered a live weaned soft fur instead and she immediately snatched it. This is her fifth meal on eggs.

The eggs are still a bit dehydrated, so I'll be doing what I can to correct that. The brown staining seems to be from the sphagnum moss.

----------


## TurkeyPython

Only two or three weeks to go right? Don't forget, we want pipping pictures.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Only two or three weeks to go right? Don't forget, we want pipping pictures.


Oh, definitely. I'm taking daily pictures of butt-ugly eggs, just wait and see how many I take when there are adorable baby snake heads.  :Razz:

----------

_Slim_ (04-01-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Temping at 88 degrees tonight. Still incubating the marshmallows. Despite having four or five meals, she hasn't defecated. I also haven't seen her drink water at all since her pre-lay shed.

----------


## led-zep

She's probably drinking you just havent caught her yet. I know depending on the nest location they stretch and reach all the way to the other end of the tub to drink with out leaving the eggs.

----------


## aceruxer

Hey was looking back over your thread and never did notice her body weight or what the father looks like or his body weight what day did you catch them conceiving what day the eggs were laid can u give some of that info please love the thread though man keep it up

----------


## Marrissa

Thanks for posting! I think this is the first thread in a long time I didn't skip one post while going through. I really want to try maternal incubation when my girls get up to size.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-02-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Hey was looking back over your thread and never did notice her body weight or what the father looks like or his body weight what day did you catch them conceiving what day the eggs were laid can u give some of that info please love the thread though man keep it up


The last time they were paired was in August of 2013.

The eggs were laid on February 19th, 2014.

This is the male:

----------


## steve_r34

did u ever hook up the acurite and get a humidity reading ?

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

No, I plan on hooking it up for my next female, who is due in a couple of weeks.

----------


## blackfish707

Updates? How are momma and eggs???

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Actually my next female is due in a couple of days, not weeks, LOL.

Charlotte seems to be doing fine, I will get a picture today and post it up. Today is Day 45.

----------

_jben_ (04-05-2014),Phantomtip (04-05-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

My only concern at this point is that a few of the eggs seem small and shrunken. None of them are bad or rotting, but a few seem smaller than the others. I can't fathom how a baby ball python could come out of eggs that small, but the others seem normal sized. Hoping there won't be issues with yolk absorption due to water loss.

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Are the shells hard or still leathery/pliable?

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Are the shells hard or still leathery/pliable?


The shells of the shrunken ones feel a bit hard and stiff. When I press harder they give, but I wouldn't call them pliable.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Considering whether I should remove the eggs to an incubator so that I can add water to the shrunken ones.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

So I went ahead and put some damp moss on the eggs while Charlotte was distracted with a soft fur. Problem is, when I checked back on her she had uncoiled the eggs completely. I'm wondering if adding the moss made her uncomfortable or if she's simply less interested in incubating so close to the hatch date. If she doesn't wrap them back up in a few hours, I am going to remove them and put them in an incubator to finish things up.  :Confused:

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Another thought (I know we talked on FB) when they get closer to hatching, I know they give off a bit more heat than usual. Are they temping any higher than they have been? 

I wonder if it's just getting close to hatch time...don't they usually coil them a lot looser?

Or do you mean she left the nest completely?

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Another thought (I know we talked on FB) when they get closer to hatching, I know they give off a bit more heat than usual. Are they temping any higher than they have been? 
> 
> I wonder if it's just getting close to hatch time...don't they usually coil them a lot looser?
> 
> Or do you mean she left the nest completely?


Last night she left it completely, today she is loosely circling the nest, not in contact with any of the eggs at all. I will have to temp them once I wake up a bit more, and figure out where to go from here. Hatching at 50 days would seem a bit early to me.  :Confused:

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Okay, so.

I've got the incubator heating up, and will be removing the eggs in an hour or two, after temperatures are stable.

I want to thank everyone for their support and interest in this project. It means a lot to me. In a way, I feel like I've failed you all, and this decision was one that I struggled with for days. In the end, I feel that the eggs will be better off in an incubator until they hatch. This was a preventable decision, and I feel badly that I didn't put enough foresight into this process to succeed.

I'll be happy to answer any questions that I didn't anticipate in this post.

*1) Why am I removing the eggs?*

Because Charlotte has stopped wrapping them, and the temperature of the eggs is unstable (one is at 85 degrees, another is at 88 degrees).

*2) Is this a reason not to do maternal incubation or something that can typically be expected to happen with MI?*

Absolutely not. I feel that the reason Charlotte has abandoned the nest is due to my own mistakes. Adding the damp moss disturbed her, and I feel that in general I have been too attentive toward her and the nest. I've made her uncomfortable, and that is something that could have easily been avoided.

*3) How will I prevent this from happening in the future?*

Next year I will have a much better setup for MI. I underestimated how hard it would be to keep humidity up in an arid state like Utah. Charlotte is in a poorly-made rack that lets a lot of humidity escape. Next year my brooding females will be in a professional rack, and I may even put the maternally incubating females in tubs with lids.

*4) Is this an issue that other people should prepare for?*

I don't believe this will be an issue for most people who want to try maternal incubation. Keep in mind the humidity of where you live, and be prepared to adjust the brooding female's enclosure as necessary. These adjustments should be done BEFORE she lays eggs, as doing so afterward can result in her leaving the nest (as happened here).

*5) What would I have done differently to succeed at maternal incubation?*

Next time (and yes, there will be a next time), I will be more careful and aggressive with keeping humidity at acceptable levels. If I had set up the nest to maintain the proper levels of humidity, I would not have had to disturb it at all, and I believe I would have succeeded with Charlotte. I underestimated how dry Utah is, and the coconut husk and sphagnum moss bedding were not enough. In the future I will use a better rack, or tubs with lids on to maintain humidity. I may also experiment with containers of water crystals near the heat source, or containers of plain water if I can figure out a way to keep them secure.

----------

_SnowShredder_ (04-07-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

I moved the eggs to the incubator. They felt fairly soft and pliable, so high hopes. Perhaps they would have been fine after all without me adding the moss last night, but what's done is done.

Here's the post from the last page, for higher visibility.

Okay, so.

I've got the incubator heating up, and will be removing the eggs in an hour or two, after temperatures are stable.

I want to thank everyone for their support and interest in this project. It means a lot to me. In a way, I feel like I've failed you all, and this decision was one that I struggled with for days. In the end, I feel that the eggs will be better off in an incubator until they hatch. This was a preventable decision, and I feel badly that I didn't put enough foresight into this process to succeed.

I'll be happy to answer any questions that I didn't anticipate in this post.

*1) Why am I removing the eggs?*

Because Charlotte has stopped wrapping them, and the temperature of the eggs is unstable (one is at 85 degrees, another is at 88 degrees).

*2) Is this a reason not to do maternal incubation or something that can typically be expected to happen with MI?*

Absolutely not. I feel that the reason Charlotte has abandoned the nest is due to my own mistakes. Adding the damp moss disturbed her, and I feel that in general I have been too attentive toward her and the nest. I've made her uncomfortable, and that is something that could have easily been avoided.

*3) How will I prevent this from happening in the future?*

Next year I will have a much better setup for MI. I underestimated how hard it would be to keep humidity up in an arid state like Utah. Charlotte is in a poorly-made rack that lets a lot of humidity escape. Next year my brooding females will be in a professional rack, and I may even put the maternally incubating females in tubs with lids.

*4) Is this an issue that other people should prepare for?*

I don't believe this will be an issue for most people who want to try maternal incubation. Keep in mind the humidity of where you live, and be prepared to adjust the brooding female's enclosure as necessary. These adjustments should be done BEFORE she lays eggs, as doing so afterward can result in her leaving the nest (as happened here).

*5) What would I have done differently to succeed at maternal incubation?*

Next time (and yes, there will be a next time), I will be more careful and aggressive with keeping humidity at acceptable levels. If I had set up the nest to maintain the proper levels of humidity, I would not have had to disturb it at all, and I believe I would have succeeded with Charlotte. I underestimated how dry Utah is, and the coconut husk and sphagnum moss bedding were not enough. In the future I will use a better rack, or tubs with lids on to maintain humidity. I may also experiment with containers of water crystals near the heat source, or containers of plain water if I can figure out a way to keep them secure.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Here's the eggs. They're in a sealed off hovabator with a herpstat 1 basic thermostat and water in the plastic insert (not touching the eggs, obviously).

----------


## BumbleB

Whether you made it to the end or not this thread was amazing! Watching someone document maternal incubation was awesome and I'm sure it'll open a lot of people's eyes as to whether they want to try it or not. Good luck with the eggs I speak for everyone that has been following this thread when I say we wish the you the best and hope to see some little hatchlings coming soon

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-06-2014),_Alicia_ (04-08-2014),Baileybones0413 (04-06-2014),_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-06-2014),_Mr. Misha_ (04-06-2014),_SnowShredder_ (04-07-2014),_steve_r34_ (04-09-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Whether you made it to the end or not this thread was amazing! Watching someone document maternal incubation was awesome and I'm sure it'll open a lot of people's eyes as to whether they want to try it or not. Good luck with the eggs I speak for everyone that has been following this thread when I say we wish the you the best and hope to see some little hatchlings coming soon


Thank you, that means a lot. I have had some criticism along the way (i.e. why don't you just spend the money and get a good incubator), but I have also had far more support than I expected, which was wonderful.

If my other herpstat arrives in time, I will be trying maternal incubation with my leopard clutch in a new rack system. If not, I plan on resuming my exploration of maternal incubation next year. I feel confident that I (and anyone else) can succeed at maternal incubation when we have the right tools and information. Now that I better understand the humidity I'm dealing with here in Utah, I can prepare for it and avoid having to disturb the nest and the mother during incubation.

I truly hope that this won't discourage people from trying maternal incubation on their own. It's not difficult if you're prepared, it's a wonderful experience, and it's an amazing insight into these animals we own.

----------

_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## BHReptiles

Would you mind sending me a PM with your research materials? I'd like to do some reading because I'd love to try this out with a clutch next year.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Would you mind sending me a PM with your research materials? I'd like to do some reading because I'd love to try this out with a clutch next year.


Sure, I will write one up tomorrow.  :Smile:

----------


## kc261

:Sad: 

I'm sad, and especially sad for you, that this didn't go all the way to hatching, but I totally understand your choice.

Please keep updating us on your trials at maternal incubation.  There isn't nearly enough good info out there about it!  And of course, we want pics when these eggs hatch!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-07-2014)

----------


## Phantomtip

Don't let the few tell you how to do what you want to do. I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I think it's amazing what you have accomplished. This makes me want to do maternal incubation when I decide to start breeding. Personally I'm very proud of what you have done. It's not about "what could have been". Its about what you have accomplished. I live in an arid climate also.  I can't wait to see what else you do. This is making me want to try breeding this season but know my friends aren't ready. Keep up the awesome work. Also if you do maternal on your next clutch start a thread so I can live vicariously through it until my babies are ready. I'm excited by what you are learning. There needs to be more info on maternal incubation. Best wishes  going out to you.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-07-2014),Baileybones0413 (04-07-2014),_BHReptiles_ (04-07-2014),_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-07-2014),_sorraia_ (04-07-2014)

----------


## MrLang

I'm actually wondering if she is doing this on purpose because they are close to hatch. A few reasons that may be true:

They give off more heat when they're closer to hatch

They may need room in the egg to position for cutting their egg open

They may actually need lower humidity for the egg to become brittle and therefore able to be cut open by the baby

It could be that she unwrapped for any of these reasons - the moss may have initiated it because she actually wants the eggs to dry out a bit. These are totally unproven speculations of course. I hope they all pop out happy and healthy soon for you and thanks for your documentation of the whole process!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-07-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Here's the information I sent via PM, as other people may find it useful.

I started off a few years ago, stalking Quiet Tempest's threads:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/searc...earchid=965046

Bob Clark has a good article on it:

http://www.bobclark.com/articles/200603.html

This article is an excellent insight into how maternal incubation benefits the hatchlings (the study concludes that maternally incubated hatchlings are larger and heavier, with longer jaws):

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...und_their_eggs

This article provides information on how maternal incubation affects the mother:

http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...80b0e0d1e7.pdf

----------

_Alicia_ (04-08-2014),*bcr229* (04-07-2014),_BHReptiles_ (04-07-2014),_kc261_ (04-10-2014),RockNRollProcelain (04-07-2014),_sorraia_ (04-07-2014)

----------


## scterial

I am sorry that you are in this position  :Sad: . Your reasons for moving the eggs to the incubator are very valid and I hope next year MI will work out for you. Today is Day 25 for my MI eggs and since she is incubating the eggs in her glass tank, I do not have the need to check on her all the time. Usually I just check the temps from the outside and once a day I'd lift her hide box to see if she's okay. 

With your conclusion that Charlotte may have abandoned her nest due to constant interfering will help me to lessen my urge to check her constantly. Actually, I have not checked her eggs for over a week now! 

Good luck on your clutch and hope they all start pippin soon  :Smile:

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> I am sorry that you are in this position . Your reasons for moving the eggs to the incubator are very valid and I hope next year MI will work out for you. Today is Day 25 for my MI eggs and since she is incubating the eggs in her glass tank, I do not have the need to check on her all the time. Usually I just check the temps from the outside and once a day I'd lift her hide box to see if she's okay. 
> 
> With your conclusion that Charlotte may have abandoned her nest due to constant interfering will help me to lessen my urge to check her constantly. Actually, I have not checked her eggs for over a week now! 
> 
> Good luck on your clutch and hope they all start pippin soon


Thank you! Good luck with your own clutch as well, make sure you take pictures!  :Smile:

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Quoting once again, because for some reason my longer/more useful posts seem to be ending up at the bottom of the page.




> Here's the information I sent via PM, as other people may find it useful.
> 
> I started off a few years ago, stalking Quiet Tempest's threads:
> 
> http://ball-pythons.net/forums/searc...earchid=965046
> 
> Bob Clark has a good article on it:
> 
> http://www.bobclark.com/articles/200603.html
> ...

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

The shells feel very thin and pliable, like they would be easy to poke through. I started them off at 87.5 degrees and raised the temperature to 88 degrees last night. Charlotte is absolutely ravenous, slamming soft furs like there's no tomorrow.

----------


## steve_r34

Sucks that u had to pull them .. I wanted to see u make it all the way thru

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Today is Day 50 for the eggs.

On another topic, Charlotte had five meals while she was incubating them, but never defecated. My theory is that she was absorbing almost all of the food she ate, resulting in very little waste. She's still pretty light, but still inhaling food.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

CHARLOTTE'S EGGS ARE HATCHING. I CAN'T EVEN I'M SO EXCITED OMFG.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-10-2014),_Alicia_ (04-10-2014),*bcr229* (04-10-2014),_BumbleB_ (04-10-2014),_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014),_Fidget_ (04-10-2014),_HypoLyf_ (04-10-2014),_Mr. Misha_ (04-10-2014),PitOnTheProwl (04-10-2014),RissaEst (04-10-2014),_Sama_ (04-11-2014),_Slim_ (04-10-2014),_sorraia_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## Marissa@MKmorphs

> CHARLOTTE'S EGGS ARE HATCHING. I CAN'T EVEN I'M SO EXCITED OMFG.


Oh my! Congrats!!!!! 

That was fast!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## ROACH

Very nice!!!!!!!!!!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

They were only in the incubator for four days, so probably they would have been fine if I left them in with Charlotte. I'm just way too excited to care, LOL.  :Very Happy:

----------

_Alicia_ (04-10-2014),_BHReptiles_ (04-10-2014),_BrandyL1193_ (04-11-2014),_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014),_SquamishSerpents_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## AlexisFitzy

Squeeeee!!!! Yayyy!! Congrats!!  :Very Happy:  love cute little pippers  :Smile:  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## SteveySingle

I don't think i've ever posted on this thread, but i've been following along..and I must admit...I am SUPER STOKED right now about this!!!!
Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee post pics every hour or so with updates lol

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> I don't think i've ever posted on this thread, but i've been following along..and I must admit...I am SUPER STOKED right now about this!!!!
> Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee post pics every hour or so with updates lol


I will for sure, I'm so excited about this I'm almost crying tears of happiness.  :Embarassed:

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## Marissa@MKmorphs

> I will for sure, I'm so excited about this I'm almost crying tears of happiness.


Is it a little normal that pipped? Baby snake faces are the cutest!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

It looks like a baby butter. I'm in the process of trying to set up a web cam for anyone who wants to watch them hatch.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## Marissa@MKmorphs

It's just hard to tell from the angle, and the blushed head tricked me.

----------


## Mr.Spence

This was a cool thread. Congratulations on the hatchlings.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

https://new.livestream.com/accounts/...events/2910978

----------


## SteveySingle

> https://new.livestream.com/accounts/...events/2910978


ahhh he's lookin all around checkin it out, so cool! i am def going to do this when mines pip.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> ahhh he's lookin all around checkin it out, so cool! i am def going to do this when mines pip.


It's nice, this way I can keep track of the eggs without disturbing the babies.  :Smile:

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Here's a cute screenshot I grabbed from the live feed video.  :Smile:

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-10-2014),Baileybones0413 (04-10-2014)

----------


## AlexisFitzy

> Here's a cute screenshot I grabbed from the live feed video.


Hahaha omg this is the cutest thing ever! Looks like he/she is saying "IM FREEEEEE" or "IM ALIVVVEEEE"! Lol loving this so much!!  :Very Happy:  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## brettfong

CONGRATS!!! I'd call this a successful maternal incubation! Don't beat yourself up about it  :Smile:

----------

_BrandyL1193_ (04-11-2014),_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## Alicia

Aww!! Congrats!!!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## scterial

Congrats!! What day did they start pippin?! I can't wait till my clutch hatches!!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## Slim

CONGRATS!!!!!  Happy Birthday little Beepers  :Good Job:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## Phantomtip

CONGRATS! It's awesome they're already pipping. Congrats to Charlotte also. This really makes me want to watch this miracle happen for my little scaled friends.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-10-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Congrats!! What day did they start pippin?! I can't wait till my clutch hatches!!


They started today, which is day 50. Much sooner than I expected, but I'm not complaining.  :Smile:

----------


## RissaEst

Congrats! I've been following this thread since you started it. I went to check out the live feed and the first thing I saw was an adorable baby yawn! I'm so psyched right now, I couldn't imagine how your feeling!

----------


## RuGGeR

Congrattssss!!! At this point, I am very sure the eggs are alright even if u didn't move them...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## kc261

Congrats!  So excited for you!

I couldn't get the live feed to work...NEED MORE PICS!   :Very Happy:

----------


## JPR

Awesome!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Sometimes the live feed goes offline, but I try to correct it when that happens.

----------


## TurkeyPython

I'm not sure if the live stream is working for me. I see zero movement. How many babies have pipped so far? I only see the one.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Only the one baby has pipped. He/she holds still for long periods of time. They take a while to hatch.

I'll be bringing the feed offline soon, and setting it back up tomorrow morning.

----------

_BrandyL1193_ (04-11-2014)

----------


## Sama

Well gratz! It's nice to see another person trying MI. We just got out first clutch for this year and as normal we let all our females handle it themselves unless there is a real concern for them or the eggs. Can't wait to see what you hatch!

----------


## TurkeyPython

I feel asleep watching the little pipper. I think you should name him Pip.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Second pipper today, but hid shortly after I took the photo. I have the livestream back up as well.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-11-2014)

----------


## SteveySingle

> It's nice, this way I can keep track of the eggs without disturbing the babies.


what do we have so far, two normals?

----------


## RissaEst

> what do we have so far, two normals?


The second one sure doesn't look normal to me  :Smile:

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Third baby has arrived:



- - - Updated - - -

I think so far we have a normal, a butter, and a pastel butter.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-11-2014),Commandokev (04-11-2014)

----------


## JLC

Excellent job on documenting this journey so others can learn from it! 

http://thereptilereport.com/maternal...ation-journey/

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-11-2014),_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-11-2014),_Pyrate81_ (04-12-2014)

----------


## Marissa@MKmorphs

> Third baby has arrived:
> 
> 
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> I think so far we have a normal, a butter, and a pastel butter.


Yay!!! Looks like you are hitting some good odds so far!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-11-2014)

----------


## Commandokev

Woooooooohooo!  Keep those pictures coming  :Very Happy:   Congrats

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-11-2014)

----------


## RissaEst

I just watched this little one yawn 6 times in a row! So adorable! Do babies usually yawn a lot?

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-11-2014),_Pyrate81_ (04-12-2014),_Wes_ (04-11-2014)

----------


## BumbleB

So exciting watching them finally come out. I can just imagine how you feel

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-11-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Here's Baby #4, a Queenbee:

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-12-2014),RissaEst (04-12-2014),_Wapadi_ (04-12-2014)

----------


## HerbsParents

Amazing thread! Am now sat at work watching your little ones hatch - love the live stream  :Very Happy:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-12-2014)

----------


## Shera

This is so exciting!  Congrats on the little ones, especially the Queen Bee!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-12-2014)

----------


## JPR

Congrats! I would call this a maternal incubation success!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-12-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

No new pippers yet, but the live feed is back up.

https://new.livestream.com/accounts/...events/2910978

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

I cut the last two eggs, which had tougher shells compared to the others. They appear to contain either butters or pastel butters. The normal baby who first pipped left the egg a short while ago.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

The fifth egg is a butter, just waiting on the sixth egg to pip now.

----------


## rafacacho

Big congratz! You did great!

Enviado desde mi MB525 usando Tapatalk 2

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-13-2014)

----------


## joebad976

Very Cool....Congrats

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-13-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

The last baby didn't pip, so last night I cut open the egg and found a very small but fully developed baby inside. The baby is currently on very damp sphagnum moss in the incubator, still attached to the yolk. It seems to be doing better, is breathing and seems to be absorbing the yolk as well. The shell of the egg was thicker than the others, so I wonder if the thickness kept it from getting as much heat as the others, causing it to develop slowly.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-13-2014),_Alicia_ (04-14-2014),_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014),RissaEst (04-13-2014),RockNRollProcelain (04-13-2014),slipknot711 (04-14-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

The babies are out, and the last little one is still doing well.

The final count is:

1 Normal
2 Butters
2 Pastel Butters
1 Queenbee

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-13-2014),_Alicia_ (04-14-2014),Baileybones0413 (04-13-2014),_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014),Krynn (04-14-2014),_MrLang_ (04-24-2014),PitOnTheProwl (04-13-2014),_Ridinandreptiles_ (04-23-2014),RockNRollProcelain (04-13-2014),_Sama_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## AlexisFitzy

Yay! They all look amazing! You got great odds on this clutch  :Smile:  it's been so nice following your journey and the outcome has been great!! Congrats! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-13-2014)

----------


## gaiaeagle

Congrats on the little ones. That queen bee is amazing looking. The thread was a joy to follow. Good luck with the next batch for maternal incubation.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-13-2014)

----------


## TurkeyPython

Did you sex them yet? I really want to know what Beepers and Boop are.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (07-22-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Did you sex them yet? I really want to know what Beepers and Boop are.


Beepers is a male and Boop is a female, lol.

----------


## TurkeyPython

Did you decide who you're keeping yet?

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Did you decide who you're keeping yet?


I'm going to be keeping a female pastel butter. The last baby is just about done absorbing the yolk, and if it's female I will be keeping it. If not I'll be keeping the other pastel butter.

Here's baby #6 just a short while ago. Is doing SO much better. I am very relieved.  :Smile:

----------


## TurkeyPython

So, QBeezy is a male?

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## BHReptiles

O.o Can you label the males/female with their morph? I'm not following all the names. That and I'm nosy.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## 4theSNAKElady

This is such an awesome thread to follow. And how come your not gonna keep that gorgeous queenbee? Kudos on a job well done.  :Good Job:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## TurkeyPython

> O.o Can you label the males/female with their morph? I'm not following all the names. That and I'm nosy.


Beepers is the normal, Boop is the butter with the longer neck stripe(I think), and QBeezy should be obvious...queen bee incase you haven't guessed it.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> This is such an awesome thread to follow. And how come your not gonna keep that gorgeous queenbee? Kudos on a job well done.


I'm starting to transition more to pinstripe stuff, and I'm hoping for a three gene male from my pastel butter x leopard clutch.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-13-2014)

----------


## Sama

They are all beautiful, gratz on a successful and gorgeous clutch!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## artgecko

Congrats!  The small pastel butter has such great blushing / dark outlining, I can see why you'd want to keep her.  

Thanks for documenting this, if I ever breed, I was planning on doing MI and seeing results like yours give me hope that it can be done successfully.

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## REBELLMORPH

good job :Good Job: 
Congrats!!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Thanks everyone.  :Smile:  The last little baby looks to be a female pastel butter, so she will be my holdback.



I am so pleased that the MI ended up going through without any major issues. I hope that this thread will be helpful and inspiring to people who want to try maternal incubation themselves.

I won't be doing MI again until next year, but I plan to do it with every clutch (dependent on the females of course) from now on.

----------

_DNACurtusK_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## BumbleB

Congrats on the babies! You had great odds this clutch

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## DNACurtusK

Thank you for documenting this, it was very helpful, and great of you to take the time to do so. Congrats on your babies!

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## STjepkes

Wow that is an amazing clutch of babies. Congratulations! And that pastel butter girl is a sweet holdback. Maybe a real *Queen*bee next year  :Very Happy:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-14-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

One last update. I was able to get a picture of my holdback girl in the middle of her first shed. I am so happy that all of the babies turned out healthy and strong.

I'm really looking forward to doing maternal incubation again next season, documenting things, and sharing the journey with everyone.

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-23-2014),_Alicia_ (04-24-2014),dr del (04-23-2014),_Fidget_ (04-23-2014),helmethead (04-23-2014),_Ridinandreptiles_ (05-03-2014),whatsherface (04-23-2014)

----------


## whatsherface

This was an amazing journey to watch unfold! Thank you so much for sharing with us  :Smile:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-24-2014)

----------


## furciferpardalis

Congratulations  :Smile:

----------

_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-26-2014)

----------


## MrLang

> I'm starting to transition more to pinstripe stuff, and I'm hoping for a three gene male from my pastel butter x leopard clutch.


Great answer. Have a direction and focus for your collection and stick with it. I think other people have a very hard time not holding back the 'most valuable' animals just because they have more genes. Selective breeding for quality and focus is the way to go! Congrats

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (04-24-2014),_meowmeowkazoo_ (04-26-2014)

----------


## Wobbilly5

Congrats on a beautiful clutch! 

However in my opinion this entire thread makes maternal incubation seem complicated, risky, and elaborate, not to mention time consuming. I can assure you and everyone that is reading this thread that maternal incubation is simple and can/should be much more hands off than this. I must add that I didn't read all 21 pages of the thread, and I'm not an expert but I have successfully hatched out my last 8 clutches using maternal incubation and to my surprise have lost 0 eggs. 

It's really quite simple for me so I'll let you know what's been successful for me and I maybe you will find some of the information helpful in the future.

1. Right when the female is about to drop her eggs I take her out of her tub and clean it, putting nothing back into the tub except her water dish (no substrate).

2. She lays her eggs right on the bottom of the plastic tub and as soon as I discover this (usually the same day) I do one of two things. I will either take her off the eggs and put moist cypress mulch in the tub with the eggs WITHOUT them touching the eggs to avoid the eggs getting too wet OR I will just put cypress mulch in with her while she is wrapping the eggs....but then you risk getting bit so I just take her out. That way I can just count the eggs and remove the slugs. I then just put her back in with the eggs and the newly added cypress mulch. She ALWAYS re-wraps the eggs. If you are uncomfortable with this idea then that why the second option is not to remove her when you put the cypress mulch in.

3. This is the easy part. Just WAIT. Don't worry about the eggs. Don't worry about the mother. She's got this! If you want to try and offer her food, go ahead....but she doesn't need to eat. If you think that her not eating for a few months is going to affect her ability to gain size enough for next season, I would say that you are wrong. Her feeding response after the eggs hatch will be INTENSE and she will gain weight back just fine. 

4. If you are patient enough, the eggs will hatch perfectly every time!

The only issue I have every encountered is that the eggs developed too much moisture while mom was laying on them, almost like they were sitting in a puddle of water. So when this happened and it only happened once, I just put some paper towels under the eggs to soak up the water and reduced to humidity a touch. 

I just think that you were a bit too worried! It's hard not to be when it comes to something you are so passionate about. Maternal incubation is all about letting the mother and nature do what it's supposed to do....without us....right? So I just figure let's let them take care of things as much as they can. It's worked for me. 

I'm glad they all ended up hatching successfully! Hopefully you can have a less stressful/complicated experience next year!

----------

JLC (05-03-2014),_meowmeowkazoo_ (05-03-2014),_Sama_ (05-08-2014),_sorraia_ (05-03-2014)

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Thanks for that post, it has some excellent advice in it that I wish I had seen before I attempted this, LOL.  :Wink: 

I realize that me documenting every little concern and fear I had may make maternal incubation seem complicated and risky, but my purpose in doing that was simply so that other people who might experience the same fears would be a little reassured that somebody else has gone through it, and so that any mistakes I made could be learned from.

I went through your list and added a few comments that might help people reading the thread, as well.

1. With Charlotte, I added the substrate shortly before she was due to lay eggs, and this seemed to work fairly well. I simply made a large circle of "blank" space for her to lay the eggs on, although next time I may just leave a large square in the back of the tub for her instead.

2. Humidity is tricky, and I get the feeling that your humidity in North Carolina is a fair amount higher than my humidity is in Utah. I think it's pretty important for everyone who wants to try MI to see where their snake room is at as far as humidity goes. Generally too much humidity will be worse for the eggs than too little, but I also think that my low humidity made the shells on two of the eggs a bit too tough for the hatchlings to break out of. It's important to get the humidity figured out BEFORE the female lays eggs, otherwise you'll spend the entire time battling it like I did.

3. While I knew that females can go without food while they incubate, a big part of the reason I offered food was because people said they "won't" eat while on eggs, and I wanted to prove that wrong. The other reason was because I wanted Charlotte to have that extra energy after 60 days of not eating and then laying the eggs. It was pretty neat to see how she hunted prey without leaving or harming the eggs.

And yeah, it was very hard not to worry, especially because of my struggles keeping the humidity high enough. There's not a lot of information available on maternal incubation, so I was largely playing it by ear. You should consider making a thread on your experience with MI with some pictures. It would be very helpful to people, I'm sure.  :Good Job:

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (05-03-2014),Baileybones0413 (05-03-2014),RuGGeR (05-04-2014)

----------

