# Colubrids > Pituophis >  ?? on my new meican pine snake and bullsnake

## BOWSER11788

fist off, i have to admit, that my pit experiance isn't the best I've read about the northern pine snakes and there husbandry, but i  already had tubs set up so i got them.  so my first ?? bulls and pines are rear fanged snakes right, the breeder said yes, but i googled bull snakes and got dif answers. second i know they rattle but when miy bull does he opens his mouth and makes a diferant hissing sound then try to strikes. does he open his mouth ready to strike or has to open his mouth to make that hissing sound, my bps and corn, hiss with no open mouth

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## RichsBallPythons

> fist off, i have to admit, that my pit experiance isn't the best I've read about the northern pine snakes and there husbandry, but i  already had tubs set up so i got them.  so my first ?? bulls and pines are rear fanged snakes right, the breeder said yes, but i googled bull snakes and got dif answers. second i know they rattle but when miy bull does he opens his mouth and makes a diferant hissing sound then try to strikes. does he open his mouth ready to strike or has to open his mouth to make that hissing sound, my bps and corn, hiss with no open mouth


All colubrids will rattle their tails as its a defensive behavior that most grow out of once older. If not mistaken they are not rear fanged at all, as rear fanged are considered semi venomous snakes and pines are not. They do have teeth just their not large, but will draw blood.

Pine snakes can be very aggressive when younger but with time and settle in period they can get better over time.

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## BOWSER11788

wonder why the breeder said they were, oh-well i went to expo for boa and milk-snake, the expo wasn't great but the deal and colors on these were great

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## leper65

Flameethrower is right,  Bulls, Gophers and Pine snakes are not rear fanged, just a big constrictor.  Care is very much like a cornsnake.  Which breeder did you get them from?  My Pine hissed and vibrated her tail a lot the first few weeks I had her. It's rarely happens now. They are opening their mouths when hissing to expel air over their epiglottis,  a special membrane they developed for hissing loudly as a defensive mechanism.

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## BOWSER11788

the breeder i asked i have no clue his name, actually he had a table in front of the one i bought mine from, but the breeder i bought from is from Ashboro(sp? big time) North Carolina, Caraway creek i belive, i left his card at my gf's house

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## BOWSER11788

im sorry in my OT, I made it sound like i bought from that breeder. sorry

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## PyroPython

Hognose are rear-fanged. But none of the pit. species.   The open mouth thing is pretty much normal, but they don't have to do it to his. Not very wide, anyways. Usually they just open it a little bit, kinda side-ways looking. 

I catch them alot around here (The bullsnake). From my experience, it's mostly just a big display. Maybe a bite or two initially, and some musking. Usually start calming down a bit after the initial display. If you take them out and are handling them, anyways. They like to hiss for a good 5 min. after you leave them alone. Gotta love em.

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## RichsBallPythons

> Hognose are rear-fanged. But none of the pit. species.   The open mouth thing is pretty much normal, but they don't have to do it to his. Not very wide, anyways. Usually they just open it a little bit, kinda side-ways looking. 
> 
> I catch them alot around here (The bullsnake). From my experience, it's mostly just a big display. Maybe a bite or two initially, and some musking. Usually start calming down a bit after the initial display. If you take them out and are handling them, anyways. They like to hiss for a good 5 min. after you leave them alone. Gotta love em.


No one asked about hognoses. we all know their rear fanged and semi venomous. They are also not in same group as colubrids.

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## PyroPython

I know this. It was just a statement. I do know how to read, after all.

Your whole reply is completely un-neccessary.

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## Skiploder

> No one asked about hognoses. we all know their rear fanged and semi venomous. They are also not in same group as colubrids.


 :Confused: 

A hognose _is_ a colubrid........

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## Skiploder

> All colubrids will rattle their tails as its a defensive behavior that *most grow out of once older*. If not mistaken they are not rear fanged at all, as rear fanged are considered semi venomous snakes and pines are not. They do have teeth just their not large, but will draw blood.
> 
> Pine snakes can be very aggressive when younger but with time and settle in period they can get better over time.


Hmmm.  I have many, many colubrids and most of them rattle their tails as adults.

There is no such thing as semi venomous.  You either are or you aren't.  Pits aren't.  Most species of colubrids, whether rear fanged or not - are.

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_DutchHerp_ (01-12-2010)

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## RichsBallPythons

> A hognose _is_ a colubrid........


They are different class of cloubrid. Wasnt meaning to say they arent completely because they are rear fanged with venom as to colubrids we all know are not. There for are a TYPE of cloubrid

I call them semi venmous due to thier not potent enough to kill . I have been bitten by one western Hog and didnt get a single reaction.

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## RichsBallPythons

> Hmmm.  I have many, many colubrids and most of them rattle their tails as adults.
> 
> There is no such thing as semi venomous.  You either are or you aren't.  Pits aren't.  Most species of colubrids, whether rear fanged or not - are.


Keyword MOST not ALL

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## Skiploder

> They are different class of cloubrid. Wasnt meaning to say they arent completely because they are rear fanged with venom as to colubrids we all know are not. There for are a TYPE of cloubrid


Come again?

Yes they are in a different subfamily and genus of colubrid.

I can't make heads or tails of the rest of your post - can you re-phrase it?

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## RichsBallPythons

> Come again?
> 
> Yes they are in a different subfamily and genus of colubrid.
> 
> I can't make heads or tails of the rest of your post - can you re-phrase it?


Thats the jest of what i was saying. They are a subfamily of colubrids but i dont consider them colubrids due to the venom. Out of the hundreds of colubrids i have had not one was venomous or rear fanged, which is why i dont classify hoggs as colubrids even though scientifically they are.

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## Skiploder

> Thats the jest of what i was saying. They are a subfamily of colubrids but i dont consider them colubrids due to the venom. Out of the hundreds of colubrids i have had not one was venomous or rear fanged, which is why i dont classify hoggs as colubrids even though scientifically they are.


Do you consider a garter snake a colubrid?

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## RichsBallPythons

> Do you consider a garter snake a colubrid?


Of course as they are not rear fanged but ive never kept them. Many things are scientifically classified with no real meanings as to why.

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## Skiploder

> Thats the jest of what i was saying. They are a subfamily of colubrids but i dont consider them colubrids due to the venom. Out of the hundreds of colubrids i have had not one was venomous or rear fanged, which is why i dont classify hoggs as colubrids even though scientifically they are.


Most colubrids ARE venomous.

Maybe you shouldn't be classifying the hundred of ones you kept as colubrids instead of the other way around.

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## Skiploder

> Of course as they are not rear fanged but ive never kept them. Many things are scientifically classified with no real meanings as to why.



But they are venomous and they have nominally enlarged rear fangs.

I think there is more meaning to the scientific classifications than you realize.

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## RichsBallPythons

> Most colubrids ARE venomous.
> 
> Maybe you shouldn't be classifying the hundred of ones you kept as colubrids instead of the other way around.


Correct me if wrong but can you prove me that most colubrids like corns,rats,garters are venmous. Since Venmous snakes if not mistaken DO NOT constrict. I would love to see documented proof to prove me wrong that most colubrids are venomous.

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## DutchHerp

Oh man there's lots of papers on this subject!  Stop trying to pretend to know a lot about this subject.  First of all, rat snakes are not "most" colubrids.  Second, garter snakes ARE venomous.

Later, Matt

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## Skiploder

> Correct me if wrong but can you prove me that most colubrids like corns,rats,garters are venmous. Since Venmous snakes if not mistaken DO NOT constrict. I would love to see documented proof to prove me wrong that most colubrids are venomous.



Corns, rats, pits and kings are not venomous.  Garters are.  So are dispholidus, thrasops, thelatornis, rhabdophis, rhamphiophis, philodryas, telescopus, hydrodynastes, psammophis, boiga etc. etc.  All colubrids.  All produce venom.  All documented.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/science/05veno.html

Then go educate yourself.  Dr. Fry has a wonderful website called Venomdoc with a forum and links to research papers (all free!) which document the fact that venomous colubrids are the rule - not the exception.

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## Skiploder

> Oh man there's lots of papers on this subject!  Stop trying to pretend to know a lot about this subject.  First of all, rat snakes are not "most" colubrids.  Second, garter snakes ARE venomous.
> 
> Later, Matt


 :Wink:

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## PyroPython

I do agree. Just because YOU don't consider anything with venom to be a colubrid, doesn't make it right. Until it's scientifically altered, a hognose and the like will continue to be colubrids, despite your personal views.

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## Skiploder

> *Really, the majority of colubrids are non-venomous. Aside from Hognose and Boomslangs, and the northern cat-eyed snake (just a few to mention here), there really aren't too many that ARE venomous.*
> 
> But I do agree. Just because YOU don't consider anything with venom to be a colubrid, doesn't make it right. Until it's scientifically altered, a hognose and the like will continue to be colubrids, despite your personal views.


In bold - wrong.

Most are.  It's documented.  Saying it isn't, does not make it so.

http://www.venomdoc.com/forums/viewt...ight=colubrids

If I may be allowed to quote form someone who has actually done research:

"_Most colubrid snakes have very potent venom but produce very small amounts of it and typically have quite small rear fangs._"

As for garters:

http://www.venomdoc.com/forums/viewt...light=sirtalis

Pay atterntion to WW's posts - that's Dr. Wolfgang Wuster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_W%C3%BCster

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## RichsBallPythons

*I stand corrected then.* I never owned anything that was considered venomous in colubrids. Only colubrid i owned when i had them were corns and kings, there for i never researched anything else, nor did anything pop out at me saying others were venomous.

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## PyroPython

Yeah, thats why I edited it. Mind is a little off today. My bad.

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## monty's dad

wow i had no idea... i handle garter snakes all the time in my backyard.  should i stop doing that?

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## PyroPython

> wow i had no idea... i handle garter snakes all the time in my backyard.  should i stop doing that?


They won't kill ya.

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## Skiploder

> Yeah, thats why I edited it. Mind is a little off today. My bad.


 :Smile:

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## Skiploder

> wow i had no idea... i handle garter snakes all the time in my backyard.  should i stop doing that?


Not unless you want to.

I  keep Thrasops which technically have the same venom as dispholidus (boomslangs).

The difference is that the dentitition on the thrasops is different and therefore the delivery system is poopy.  I've been tagged and had some localized swelling, itching, bruising and bleeding.

Garters have a decent little venom, but a crappy delivery system.  Even if you let the little guy chew on you for a while, you wouldn't be in any danger.

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## BOWSER11788

great reading guys, thanx for all the info. for a sec i thought pitopheus(sp. big time) were in a dif. type than colubrids

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## Aeries

The dangers of a forum and misinformation eh? Thanks for providing those great links Skiploder.

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