# Other Pythons > General Pythons >  Need advice or help immediately

## xanaxez

ok i just got an email from the sender and it appears he has put me in between a rock and a hard place. #1 he shipped my hcq stripped tiger carpet through USPS which is very illegal so now my problem is do i accept the package for the welfare and well being of this girl even though if found out i can get in alot of trouble or do i refuse the package and hope and prey they send it back to the sender quickly so the snake is ok. also he advised me he couldnt find a heat pack but shipped her anyways =( it will be in the low 40's tonite? i have paid for her and he has shipped her so now i am at a loss for words on this guy. any suggestions as to what i should do?

if this thread is in the wrong place please move it.

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## Aaron Ward

all i can think of is dont buy from him again and try to get the animal as discretely as possibly and hope the animal is all right beacause the welfare of the animal is EXTREMELY important

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## xanaxez

you're right i see no good ending to this situation if i do not except the package. i cannot see myself putting an animal into harm for someone elses mistake. i have to accept it and take my chances or accept the consequences that may follow because the snakes welfare and well being is my main concern. i can eventually get out of trouble if it occured but this poor girl cant get a new life is something happens.

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## littleindiangirl

Who is the seller?

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## Colin Vestrand

the snake will be more than fine without a heat pack... as for the shipment, if it were me i'd take it and plead the 5th if anything comes about.

as for will bird... i don't know what to say.  he's got nice carpets but i've heard this before and i will also say that it's dishonest for him to refer to your carpet as (#1) a new morph of orange tigers and (#2) refer to your snake as a tiger, which it is not.

sorry you had a bad experience....

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## Chuck

except that package and say nothing. Its not like its your fault he did it like he did, besides they are going to come after you for it they will go after him. He was the one who shipped it and it is out of your control once it is on the way. 


chuck

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## Spaniard

> the snake will be more than fine without a heat pack... as for the shipment, if it were me i'd take it and plead the 5th if anything comes about.
> 
> as for will bird... i don't know what to say.  he's got nice carpets but i've heard this before and i will also say that it's dishonest for him to refer to your carpet as (#1) a new morph of orange tigers and (#2) refer to your snake as a tiger, which it is not.
> 
> sorry you had a bad experience....


She never mentioned the seller, how do you know it was Will Bird?

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## xanaxez

> the snake will be more than fine without a heat pack... as for the shipment, if it were me i'd take it and plead the 5th if anything comes about.
> 
> as for will bird... i don't know what to say.  he's got nice carpets but i've heard this before and i will also say that it's dishonest for him to refer to your carpet as (#1) a new morph of orange tigers and (#2) refer to your snake as a tiger, which it is not.
> 
> sorry you had a bad experience....


this girl i didnt buy from will bird. i purchased her off of fauna. also  im not sure what you mean as new morph but no one said  any of my snakes were new morphs. if you are pertaining to my orange tiger carpet, its not a new morph but yes it is a tiger carpet just not a stripped tiger. the sire is a hcq tiger carpet and the dam was a coastal carpet. as far as him having a new morph u must mean his citrus line that in fact i have not seen any of that except from him. and believe me you are the first person i have ever heard of that had something negative to say about will bird. im not saying you're wrong but as far as this post you are lol. this post is just on a reg stipped coastal and it was not from will. and i do have all the info sent back to me from anthony caponetta if you need it on her lol. he produced her and sold her to the guy i picked her up from and was confirmed by him. now not picking an arguement or anything with you colin because i respect you but not all tigers are stripped and you as a carpet lover yourself should know this.

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## xanaxez

here you go colin. another very reputable breeder that is a certified boi good guy. he sells the snake and its listed as a tiger also?

http://www.sprucenubblefarm.com/carpets/TS07T01.php

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## onebreitgirl

Is this the same person you posted a BOI good guy thread about?

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## xanaxez

actually yes,  i posted asa good guy for the only fact that the snake was healthy and was all he said she was and the fact that he appoligized and said he never uses usps and always uses heat packs but it was a spare of the moment thing and that he didnt have a car so he had to hitch a ride to ship her and fedex is a good distance from him. taking that into consideration and talking to a few people he has actually sold to and done business with before after this was posted on here, they all said the same thing all of there animals arrived fedex and with heat and that he was a very good guy to deal with. he kept communication with me at all times and everything a good saler would do other then the way he shipped her to me. he admitted it was wrong to have shipped her usps but thats the only possible way he could have got her shipped before it got cold here due to  him having no transportation of his own now. so as far as a good guy yes he is for many of reason just a bad shipping decission. i know alot of people do it and get away with it and try there luck but i just think it should be done without having that to worry about.

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## xanaxez

ok now i see the confusion. in the original post  for some reason i put  it as a hcq stripped tiger. then later down i said it was a just a stripped coastal. ok the snake in question is a stripped coastal not a tiger. but im still not understand the remarks on the orange tiger or claiming of new morphs. the original is my fault colin and i do appoligise for that. assuming i was thinking about my hcq tiger as i was also posting this. the one in question though is just a stripped carpet produced by  anthony caponetta. so it was my mistake that i had it as a tiger and im guessing that what you were refering to all though i mentioned nothing about it being an orange tiger.

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## Colin Vestrand

let me lay this out for ya...

a tiger is a coastal carpet morph that has full striping head to tail... for someone to call a carpet that is not striped, a 'tiger' seems pretty misleading to me.  second, names like 'orange', 'citrus line', etc and referring to them as new morphs in ads is pretty much dishonest in my opinion... not trying to bust anyone out but that is my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of other carpet people.

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_MPenn_ (11-10-2008)

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## xanaxez

by that statement in itself colin is also saying that 1 a tiger that has breaks in his stripe is not a tiger because it isnt a full stripe from head to tail.2 who is all of these others you speak about? i know its not yasser,will,or anthony caponetta, who are very reputable breeders that also do not agree that all tigers are striped lol so who would they be? id liek to talk to them myself and find out why something  wouldnt be a tiger because it doesnt have a solid stripe. first off they were names after Tigers and tigers doesnt have solid stripes persay. i would like more information on this myself. im not fighting over it or trying to pick on you its just an issue no one can come up with an answer on. if you think about it then that would mean what you guys call an albino carpet which is white and yellow would be in correct. a real albino would be pure white not cross faded colors if we wanted to get technical on it.

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## xanaxez

here you go colin. read this. 

Genetics
For simplicity's sake, consider the Tiger a co-dominant mutation.  However, the striping is extremely variable much like the saddles on the Jaguar carpet are variable.  The main reason the stripe varies on Tiger offspring is because it can be influenced by the non-tiger parent.  *Some hobbyists automatically assume that every snake carrying the Tiger gene must have a perfect dorsal stripe, but this is not the case.*  Sometimes the pattern of the non-Tiger parent works against the striping in Tiger offspring, similar to the way we see an occasional banded Jaguar.  However, when two animals carrying the gene are bred together, I believe a number of visibly striped Tigers will be produced.

I believe that breeding Tiger to Tiger produces offspring with increased or more complete striping.  My 2002 male Tiger was produced by breeding a male Tiger to a female Tiger.  His dorsal stripe is broken in places, but the striping is generally very uniform, even along the sides.  In the future, we may hear hobbyists start referring to these animals as "Super Tigers".

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## Colin Vestrand

i'm very familiar with them, thanks... 

i stand by my original statement, but i'm not going to argue with you.

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## xanaxez

yes your opinion is that of your own so we can desmiss this. but if you would like further information go to nick mutton  and will leary also. they have been trying to explain this same thing to people that think  tigers are only stripped for years. thats 6 very highly reputable breeders that has tried to make this clear and yet still we have people with little knowledge claiming else wise. but this post will end now because you have your own beliefs even though some of the biggest and well known dealers/breeders says else wise.

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## Colin Vestrand

yes, are you sure you know how a co-dom morph works? 
i've chatted with several of those 'big breeders' on multiple occasions over the years, so i really have nothing more to say to you.

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## m00kfu

> if you think about it then that would mean what you guys call an albino carpet which is white and yellow would be in correct. a real albino would be pure white not cross faded colors if we wanted to get technical on it.


Actually, a pure white would be leucistic.  Albino isn't the lack of color, it's the lack of melanin.

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## littleindiangirl

Not to mention, there are several types of albinism.

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## Skiploder

> here you go colin. read this. 
> 
> Genetics
> For simplicity's sake, consider the Tiger a co-dominant mutation.  However, the striping is extremely variable much like the saddles on the Jaguar carpet are variable.  The main reason the stripe varies on Tiger offspring is because it can be influenced by the non-tiger parent.  *Some hobbyists automatically assume that every snake carrying the Tiger gene must have a perfect dorsal stripe, but this is not the case.*  Sometimes the pattern of the non-Tiger parent works against the striping in Tiger offspring, similar to the way we see an occasional banded Jaguar.  However, when two animals carrying the gene are bred together, I believe a number of visibly striped Tigers will be produced.
> 
> I believe that breeding Tiger to Tiger produces offspring with increased or more complete striping.  My 2002 male Tiger was produced by breeding a male Tiger to a female Tiger.  His dorsal stripe is broken in places, but the striping is generally very uniform, even along the sides.  In the future, we may hear hobbyists start referring to these animals as "Super Tigers".


This is directly from Caponetto's website - no?

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## Chuck

xanaxez  I think you should slow you roll a little bit as Colin has a firm grasp on what he is talking about, and as for Will Bird you can count me as another one who thinks he uses "creative marketing" which is the nice word I like to use for it.

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_MPenn_ (11-10-2008)

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## Chuck

> yes your opinion is that of your own so we can desmiss this. but if you would like further information go to nick mutton  and will leary also. they have been trying to explain this same thing to people that think  tigers are only stripped for years. thats 6 very highly reputable breeders that has tried to make this clear and yet still we have people with little knowledge claiming else wise. but this post will end now because you have your own beliefs even though some of the biggest and well known dealers/breeders says else wise.


Here since you are found of quoting other people this is one of the things I think is relevant here. I hope Nick is ok with me posting this and maybe he can post his 2 cents as I know he pops in from time to time.




> Tigers froma tigerXnormal breedings are only heterozygous, as they can only recieve one copy of the tiger gene. the outcome of breeding tigers to tigers will depend on if the parent tigers are heterozygous or homozygous tigers and at the moment the variablility of the gene in its heterozygous state can make it difficult to determine.
> 
> Nick

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_Colin Vestrand_ (11-09-2008),_MPenn_ (11-10-2008),_Thor26_ (11-18-2008)

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## MPenn

As another carpet breeder, I will back Colin and Chuck on the use of "creative marketing" terms. Myself, and both of these guys, have been around long enough to see the misuse of marketing terms like this. For example, hypo and red hypo jags. Alot of people spent good money on these to find that they were nothing special.

As far as the tiger goes, there mode of inheritance is still yet to be determined. Coastals are variable by nature and there are several striped lines out there. I for one, produce one of those lines. My coastals have a lot of the same qualities that tigers have but they are not tigers.
Tiger inheritance is still only educated guesses at this moment.

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## xanaxez

find his line of thinking almost as advanced as a third grader. He believes that the High Contrast Queensland Tiger is a legit  
morph. The HCQ Tiger Morph is the result of pairing a Tiger to a nice colored Queensland Carpet. The resulting offspring were coined HCQ  
Tigers. They were called this so that people would know what bloodline they came from.

The reason I am calling my other animals Citrus Tigers is so that people will know that they are not HCQ Tigers because they are not. I used a female that was not from this bloodline and to call the babies  
HCQ Tigers would be mis-leading to people. People need to know that these are different and are the result of breeding an HCQ Tiger to MY  
kick-ass orange carpet. This process is called selective breeding. I am breeding Tigers so that they will become more orange.

  And so I ask, if it is alright in this guys mind for Dave Prada and Anthony Caponetto to name their morphs, why is not alright for me  
to do the same thing? My actions have been no different than theirs  
period.

Also, Tiger carpet genetics is still very misunderstood by lots of people out there. I think Will Leary's success with producing Super Tigers the last two seasons has really shed some light on this  
subject. Nick Mutton has explained this stuff to people for years now and yet these [dummies] seem unable to comprehend what they read on these forums. The reason I say this is because of his  
erroneous claim that all tigers are striped head to tail. Even some Super Tigers have breaks. Period. Will Bird

*maybe this will shed some light on the subject or better help you guys to understand.*

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## xanaxez

> This is directly from Caponetto's website - no?


yes, its from anthonys site.

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## littleindiangirl

Well, since we are into posting emails, why don't you post the whole thing? Yours included.

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## Colin Vestrand

look, xanaxez, you need to chill out a bit... maybe take a Xanax?  :Smile:  i dont have a problem with will bird... i really dont. he seems like a nice enough guy and has some nice carpets.
i honestly think this 'discussion' is going nowhere... only bad things will come of going on and on about this.  your opinion won't change, my opinion won't change, and everyone else is just going to get the same conflicting information so how about everyone just agrees to disagree?

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_MPenn_ (11-10-2008),_Thor26_ (11-18-2008)

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## Chuck

You have got to be _kidding_ me, I am not going to get talked down to about tiger co-dom genetics by a guy who does not understand the difference between a co-dom super form and a simple recessive genetics. 




> if you think about it then that would mean what you guys call an albino carpet which is white and yellow would be in correct. a real albino would be pure white not cross faded colors if we wanted to get technical on it.






> The reason I am calling my other animals Citrus Tigers is so that people will know that they are not HCQ Tigers because they are not. I used a female that was not from this bloodline and to call the babies
> HCQ Tigers would be mis-leading to people. People need to know that these are different and are the result of breeding an HCQ Tiger to MY
> kick-ass orange carpet. This process is called selective breeding. I am breeding Tigers so that they will become more orange.


Look all we are saying is its all bull_hooey_, HCQ is nothing more than a nice looking normal coastal, So call it what ever you want but at the end of the day its a coastal. Same goes for what ever creative marketing you want to do. 




> Also, Tiger carpet genetics is still very misunderstood by lots of people out there. I think Will Leary's success with producing Super Tigers the last two seasons has really shed some light on this
> subject. Nick Mutton has explained this stuff to people for years now and yet these [dummies] seem unable to comprehend what they read on these forums. The reason I say this is because of his
> erroneous claim that all tigers are striped head to tail. Even some Super Tigers have breaks. Period. Will Bird
> 
> maybe this will shed some light on the subject or better help you guys to understand.


I want you to tell me how tiger genetics works since we don't seem to understand. I am calling you out smart guy why don't you edcuate us on the progress of will leary. So settle it once and for all just tell us how tiger genetics works and we can all be silenced like the dumb _guys_ we are.

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## MPenn

> Look all we are saying is its all bull_hooey_, HCQ is nothing more than a nice looking normal coastal, So call it what ever you want but at the end of the day its a coastal.


Chuck, and everyone else interested:

HCQ was a term used to describe the line of carpet Dave Prada was working with. Since he had no idea if the line was pure coastal or a jungle x coastal cross, he coined the term HCQ. It was more of a descriptive term to describe the snakes appearance. The HCQ are simply a nice looking *carpet* python.

(Chuck, I am sure you already knew this and you were just lost in the heat of the moment.)

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_Chuck_ (11-11-2008),_Colin Vestrand_ (11-10-2008)

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## xanaxez

> As another carpet breeder, I will back Colin and Chuck on the use of "creative marketing" terms. Myself, and both of these guys, have been around long enough to see the misuse of marketing terms like this. For example, hypo and red hypo jags. Alot of people spent good money on these to find that they were nothing special.
> 
> *As far as the tiger goes, there mode of inheritance is still yet to be determined. Coastals are variable by nature and there are several striped lines out there. I for one, produce one of those lines. My coastals have a lot of the same qualities that tigers have but they are not tigers.
> Tiger inheritance is still only educated guesses at this moment*.


that i can relate to and agree with. as far as coloring or them being called  coined as hcq or whta ever someone whats to call them for what ever purposes rather it be marketing or whatever that happens every day in all sorts of business advertisements and such. what i am disagreeing to and and the purpose of the debate/ discusion  is that fact  of rather it being a tiger or not. also as you stated the tiger inheritance is still edgucated gueses so rather none of us know for sure i guess none of us can say rather  a tiger has to be fully striped or not. i understand that a hcq is just merely a nice coastal and i dont dissagree with that but to say because a something doesnt have a solid stripe so therefor cant be a tiger  in my opinion is false. im sure they are alot of breeders that say they cant and alot they say they can and all of the  ones i am aware of (some that are very well known) say they can and do. but if the tigers inheritance is just an edgucated guess then that would mean that niether one of us can say we are right or wrong then doesnt it? that would mean none of us can prove  whats actually a tiger and what isnt. i have a carpet that has a stipe down its back and a stripe down one of its side and was procuded by anthony caponneto so does that make it a tiger since it has a a stripe? i mean im willing to take all information because i have not been into carpets long and i dont claim to know everything i just learn by reading and what i have read from or by big time breeders appears to be different then others opinions so if you have more information or proof on what a tiger is and what it isnt then by all means share it and ill read up on it.

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## Colin Vestrand

alright... so back to my original question, do you know what a co-dom morph is?  i don't mean can you copy a definition from someone's website... if we can assume the tiger is a co-dom morph, which it most likely IS, then what you're saying does not make any sense at all.
just for the record, i currently have four different striped coastals, all from different lines, only one is a tiger... so yes, we all know that there are other striped lines so if you're trying to learn something, don't try and insult the ones that can teach you something.  :Wink:

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## xanaxez

im not trying to insult anyone. im just merely posting what i have either read or have been told. do i know how of the the co-dom genes and all of that work? that answer would be no.like i said a month or so back when we talked before in a thread i havent been in this long at all hence the reading  forums and websites and talking to large breeders and so forth to get information on things and learn. like i stated earlier i have alot of people and breeders that say they can and do have tigers that arent striped. then i have people also saying they cant be a tiger if not striped. even larry from retile radio and bush-league breeders club says it's a tiger. if you have sites or forums or somewheres that i ca nread up on  the gene aspects of what types of morphs or  what makes morphs then by all means send it my way i never turn down reading material. i'm willing to learn as much as the next guy.

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## littleindiangirl

Not everyone who comments on topics is an informed person.  :Wink:

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## Chuck

Look I am sorry to everyone if I got a little heated, I know my comments may have been a little harsh. I just wanted to apologize if I offended anyone.  Remember first and foremost we are all Moreliaheads and that trumps all. 

Chuck

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JLC (11-11-2008),_Thor26_ (11-18-2008)

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## DavidG

> Not everyone who comments on topics is an informed person.



Best advice in those whole thread. Which was more than entertaining to scan threw.

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## janeothejungle

> i mean im willing to take all information because i have not been into carpets long and i dont claim to know everything i just learn by reading and what i have read from or by big time breeders appears to be different then others opinions so if you have more information or proof on what a tiger is and what it isnt then by all means share it and ill read up on it.


I find your arrogance astounding. You come in here spouting off like you're the foremost authority, you insult reputable breeders, you show off your OBVIOUS ignorance when it comes to understanding basic genetics, and you have the nerve to then throw out the 'I'm still new' defense and expect anyone to take you seriously? Spare me, seriously.

My .02

~Kat

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