# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics > Is This A Morph? / What Morph Is This? >  Lavender Albino or not?

## piedpiperballs

I posted this on another thread but photos didn't work out.  Here is a 3 day old lavender albino with a sibling that I can't identify due to color and dark eyes.  Mother is normal het lavender albino. Father is lavender albino 50% het pied. Any thoughts on what the morph the dark eyed baby might be?

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## Albert Clark

Well I know Candino's have the darker ruby eye coloration as opposed to reg albinos that have the pink eye color. Are you sure this is the lavender albino gene you are working with? The first pic looks like a regular albino. Maybe we need to wait on subsequent sheds to really tell. Maybe the mother is het albino and not lavender albino ?

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_StillBP_ (09-21-2017)

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## StillBP

how sure are you on those hets?
I have to second the candy/toffee sugestion 
that baby looks like a candino/toffino to me but only time will tell (I may not be the best judge on lav as I don't work with it, but I do work with toffee)

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## piedpiperballs

The father is definitely lavender albino 50% het for pied.  The mother was sold to me as proven het for lavender albino.  This was my first time breeding her but if she was het for albino the babies would all be visually normal.  The photos of the two babies are both from her clutch so she must be het for lavender albino unless the father carries some other gene.  The mother laid ten eggs which all hatched, producing seven visual lavender albino, two visual normal, and the oddball with dark eyes.

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## StillBP

If you are sure about the hets then the only explanation is he's just a bit odd. Personally I'd hold him/her back. Just to see

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## Albert Clark

> The father is definitely lavender albino 50% het for pied.  The mother was sold to me as proven het for lavender albino.  This was my first time breeding her but if she was het for albino the babies would all be visually normal.  The photos of the two babies are both from her clutch so she must be het for lavender albino unless the father carries some other gene.  The mother laid ten eggs which all hatched, producing seven visual lavender albino, two visual normal, and the oddball with dark eyes.


Do the other lavender albinos look like the first pic as far as the coloration, or the second? Maybe it's a random genetic influence on the eye color?

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## piedpiperballs

> Do the other lavender albinos look like the first pic as far as the coloration, or the second? Maybe it's a random genetic influence on the eye color?


The seven lavender albino babies all look alike.  Following are photos of the two normal looking babies in case you see something in them.

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## piedpiperballs

Could it be a lavender snowball?

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## piedlover79

Paradox that only effected the eyes?

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## asplundii

> Well I know Candino's have the darker ruby eye coloration as opposed to reg albinos that have the pink eye color.


Candino eyes do not look like that. Especially not at hatching




> The first pic looks like a regular albino.


Lavs typically hatch out looking like normal Albinos and their colouring flushes in as they age


Based on the fact that the whole animal is pigmented my inclination is to say it is just genetic variation just popping out and surprising you a bit and the animal is a regular Lav that happened to start colouring up significantly earlier than expected. Odd question -- What were your incubation temps and was this specific animal's egg someplace where it would have been colder than the rest of the eggs?

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_Albert Clark_ (09-22-2017)

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## piedpiperballs

The temps were 89 +/- 1/2 degree the entire 56 days.   I put the eggs in two groups of five into two tuperwares.  They all hatched within 14 hours and each group of five was stuck together.

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## Albert Clark

> Candino eyes do not look like that. Especially not at hatching
> Well, certainly the camera and the photo can be deceptive as to showing the exact eye coloration. I think the color is subjective. Was it a flash photo or indoor lighting, etc?
> 
> 
> Lavs typically hatch out looking like normal Albinos and their colouring flushes in as they age
> That same phenomenon occurs with Candinos as well. I just hatched out a clutch of Candinos and they look different almost high contrast compared to the phenotypical albinos.
> 
> Based on the fact that the whole animal is pigmented my inclination is to say it is just genetic variation just popping out and surprising you a bit and the animal is a regular Lav that happened to start colouring up significantly earlier than expected. Odd question -- What were your incubation temps and was this specific animal's egg someplace where it would have been colder than the rest of the eggs?

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## Albert Clark

> Candino eyes do not look like that. Especially not at hatching
> 
> 
> 
> Lavs typically hatch out looking like normal Albinos and their colouring flushes in as they age
> 
> 
> Based on the fact that the whole animal is pigmented my inclination is to say it is just genetic variation just popping out and surprising you a bit and the animal is a regular Lav that happened to start colouring up significantly earlier than expected. Odd question -- What were your incubation temps and was this specific animal's egg someplace where it would have been colder than the rest of the eggs?


 Well certainly the camere and flash can have a deceptive showing of the true eye color. The darker ruby eye coloration is what I attribute to the Candino gene. OP is saying this hatchlings eye color is black.

I just hatched out a clutch of Candinos and you can see the difference in the phenotypical albinos vs. candino. I do believe this could just be a random genetic occurrence in the eye color. Remember the sire is het pied I believe.

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## Albert Clark

> Candino eyes do not look like that. Especially not at hatching
> 
> 
> 
> Lavs typically hatch out looking like normal Albinos and their colouring flushes in as they age
> 
> 
> Based on the fact that the whole animal is pigmented my inclination is to say it is just genetic variation just popping out and surprising you a bit and the animal is a regular Lav that happened to start colouring up significantly earlier than expected. Odd question -- What were your incubation temps and was this specific animal's egg someplace where it would have been colder than the rest of the eggs?


This is one of the Candinos that I hatched out August 23, '17. Notice the darker ruby eye color.

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## Albert Clark

This is one of the albinos from the same clutch..

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## piedpiperballs

Here are the four different babies from the clutch together.

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## Albert Clark

Yeah, big difference in overall coloration in the odd one. Not just the eyes. I think also by there being 10 eggs laid and the two hets, the seven visual lavenders, may have played a role in the random discoloration of the odd one also.  :Good Job:

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## piedpiperballs

My best theory as to what morph the black eyed baby is as follows:  The parents are by coincidence both het for Axanthic and the black eyed baby and one of the two normal babies to me display this gene.  As for explaining the black eyes on the oddly colored lavender albino baby I have found photos of axanthic lavender albino balls with both black and red eyes.  I'll post more photos as the baby matures.  I have an adult female pied that surprisingly proved to be het for albino when I bred her with a male albino het for pied.  I believe many of our ball pythons carry genes from previous generations being bred to recessive animals and babies were unknowingly het for these recessive traits and never proven out.  Thanks for everyone's input on this puzzle.

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_Albert Clark_ (09-23-2017)

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## Albert Clark

> My best theory as to what morph the black eyed baby is as follows:  The parents are by coincidence both het for Axanthic and the black eyed baby and one of the two normal babies to me display this gene.  As for explaining the black eyes on the oddly colored lavender albino baby I have found photos of axanthic lavender albino balls with both black and red eyes.  I'll post more photos as the baby matures.  I have an adult female pied that surprisingly proved to be het for albino when I bred her with a male albino het for pied.  I believe many of our ball pythons carry genes from previous generations being bred to recessive animals and babies were unknowingly het for these recessive traits and never proven out.  Thanks for everyone's input on this puzzle.


 Nice theory... plenty of possibilities for sure. Love when those hets prove out especially a pied anything..lol.. Did you get albino pied visuals out of that pairing?  :Good Job:

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## piedpiperballs

> Nice theory... plenty of possibilities for sure. Love when those hets prove out especially a pied anything..lol.. Did you get albino pied visuals out of that pairing?


Unfortunately the male albino het for pied did not prove out the pied gene so I got visual albinos het pied and double het pied/albino.  I'm still happy with the results since I have a 3000 gram female pied 100% het for albino and will end up with albino/pieds sooner than I had planned.

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## asplundii

> This is one of the Candinos that I hatched out August 23, '17. Notice the darker ruby eye color.


Notice that the animal's entire head is in shadow which makes they eye appear darker than it actually is.

I have hatched Candino clutches the past three years, the eyes on Candinos as hatchlings are not noticeably different than the eyes of their Albino siblings. Further, as they mature, Candino eyes do not look like the one in the OP's picture.




> My best theory as to what morph the black eyed baby is as follows:  The parents are by coincidence both het for Axanthic and the black eyed baby and one of the two normal babies to me display this gene


With all due respect, that is not how it works. Axanthic pulls yellow out while Lav drops the melanin. Neither of these conditions act to darken the eye. Hatchling LavSnows have red eyes the same as straight Lavs. As the animals age theirs eyes become a deeper claret-colour.

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## Albert Clark

> Notice that the animal's entire head is in shadow which makes they eye appear darker than it actually is.
> 
> I have hatched Candino clutches the past three years, the eyes on Candinos as hatchlings are not noticeably different than the eyes of their Albino siblings. Further, as they mature, Candino eyes do not look like the one in the OP's picture.
> 
> 
> 
> With all due respect, that is not how it works. Axanthic pulls yellow out while Lav drops the melanin. Neither of these conditions act to darken the eye. Hatchling LavSnows have red eyes the same as straight Lavs. As the animals age theirs eyes become a deeper claret-colour.


Well that clearly is your position but we all can write our anecdotal findings when it comes to breeding  and the visible differences in productions. While I respect your position I disagree with the statement on the way a particular hatchling  may present based on a preconceived idea of breeding results over time. You can go on Morph market and view the multitude of hatchling Candinos and compare them to albinos and see in some of them ruby eye coloration is visible. Moreso in some than in others. Genetics is not a exact science and different outcomes and appearances can and do happen.

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## Ax01

> My best theory as to what morph the black eyed baby is as follows:  The parents are by coincidence both het for Axanthic and the black eyed baby *and one of the two normal babies to me display this gene*.  As for explaining the black eyes on the oddly colored lavender albino baby I have found photos of axanthic lavender albino balls with both black and red eyes.  I'll post more photos as the baby matures.  I have an adult female pied that surprisingly proved to be het for albino when I bred her with a male albino het for pied.  I believe many of our ball pythons carry genes from previous generations being bred to recessive animals and babies were unknowingly het for these recessive traits and never proven out.  Thanks for everyone's input on this puzzle.


what marker(s) do u see in the normal that indicates it may be het Axanthic? pix?

also i think i inadvertently planted the seed in your head to make u think it may be a Lavender Albino Snow when i drew comparison to the eyes of the Lavender Albino Snow in the other thread. i think your's has too many yellows to be a Snow. it should be more of a high white pattern with hints of yellow on a lavender background.

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## piedpiperballs

> what marker(s) do u see in the normal that indicates it may be het Axanthic? pix?
> 
> also i think i inadvertently planted the seed in your head to make u think it may be a Lavender Albino Snow when i drew comparison to the eyes of the Lavender Albino Snow in the other thread. i think your's has too many yellows to be a Snow. it should be more of a high white pattern with hints of yellow on a lavender background.


*Axanthic* - While albinism is the lack of all  melanin or pigment color, Axanthics only lack red or yellow or both.  Axanthics are a recessive mutation that produces a snake that is varying  shades of grey, black and brown.

I think that one of the normals babies looks to be Axanthic and the lavender albino baby as well.  As for the dark eyes on the Lavender Albino see the definition above that states Axanthics can lack both yellow and red.

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## Alicia

> *Axanthic* - While albinism is the lack of all  melanin or pigment color, Axanthics only lack red or yellow or both.  Axanthics are a recessive mutation that produces a snake that is varying  shades of grey, black and brown.
> 
> I think that one of the normals babies looks to be Axanthic and the lavender albino baby as well.  As for the dark eyes on the Lavender Albino see the definition above that states Axanthics can lack both yellow and red.


I need to note, red eyes on an albino are not the result of red pigment. They are the result of the melanin (and other pigments) in the eye being stripped away to review the capillaries beneath. The red color is derived from the animal's now-visible hemoglobin.

That said, I don't have an explanation for the weird, dark-eyed baby, except that it's a lavender albino with its color switched on early. Maybe due to poly genetic factors, maybe due to simple modifiers. Probably the only way to know is to hold the little guy back and breed it. It doesn't look like a lavender snow to me, though. The eyes of a lavender snow are bright ruby-scarlet, and the blotches are noticeably paler on a lav snow than your little guy. Am I saying it can't be? No, I can't. I just call it as it looks on my screen.

The almost greyish baby doesn't quite look axanthic, at least not on my monitor. What it reminds me of, is something that used to be seen from time to time with the old-school faded albinos. The hets would often hatch out looking very axanthic, then color up after a couple sheds. This was a visible marker for the faded trait. Maybe the separate gene(s) for fading got mixed into your lavs somewhere along the line, and the dark-eyed guy is a result?

Anyway. Two cents. Best,

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_Albert Clark_ (10-02-2017),piedpiperballs (09-27-2017),_tttaylorrr_ (10-10-2017)

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## asplundii

> *Axanthic* - While albinism is the lack of all  melanin or pigment color, Axanthics only lack red or yellow or both.  Axanthics are a recessive mutation that produces a snake that is varying  shades of grey, black and brown.
> 
> I think that one of the normals babies looks to be Axanthic and the lavender albino baby as well.  As for the dark eyes on the Lavender Albino see the definition above that states Axanthics can lack both yellow and red.


Axanthism is only a lack of yellow pigment, the lack of red pigment is anerythrism. Also, there is no red pigmentation in ball pythons, hence the reason Albino balls are only yellow and white

As Alicia noted, the red in Albino eyes is not derived from a pigment it is the result of the blood and the crystalline structure of the eye. This is why the Snow and LavSnow combos also have red eyes.

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## Ballpythonguy92

I want to say candino as well but it's pattern and color looks off same with the eyes look way darker buy either way amazing 

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## piedpiperballs

> I want to say candino as well but it's pattern and color looks off same with the eyes look way darker buy either way amazing 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Here is a photo after first shed.

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## BluuWolf

It looks like a banana to me lol but I'm far from an expert 

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## Ax01

> Here is a photo after first shed.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D415 using Tapatalk





> It looks like a banana to me lol but I'm far from an expert


well this has been an interesting couple of threads! is that a freckle? what if u had an Albino Banana/Coral Glow all along? this is just crazy. ballpythonguy92 is gonna flip.

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## piedpiperballs

My daughter sees red in its eyes.  I'll post another photo after a few more sheds to see if anyone can help us pinpoint the morph of this baby.  It seems an accurate answer may take years and future breedings to solve.

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## Albert Clark

> My daughter sees red in its eyes.  I'll post another photo after a few more sheds to see if anyone can help us pinpoint the morph of this baby.  It seems an accurate answer may take years and future breedings to solve.


This may also just be a random genetic occurrence based on the fact that there may be something occurring on a chromosome that may only show up intermittently or sporadic.

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## Kerol

It seems to me an ultramel in the last pics, not banana. They have very dark ruby eyes when hatchling almost looks black.

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## piedpiperballs

Here is a photo after second shed.  Quite a change from hatchling, after first shed, and now after second shed.  I was hoping the purple tint would last but no such luck.

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## Alicia

Wow. That's . . . Really weird. Honestly, if you had told me it was a baby Ultramel, yeah, I'd believe you. When you breed it, and breed it to a range of mates, please do post results. That may be the only way to know.

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## piedpiperballs

> Wow. That's . . . Really weird. Honestly, if you had told me it was a baby Ultramel, yeah, I'd believe you. When you breed it, and breed it to a range of mates, please do post results. That may be the only way to know.


Here are some photos from this morning with an ultramel and a lavender albino for comparison. I know he's not an ultramel but he looks very similar.

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## cchardwick

As I was reading through this thread I was thinking the same thing, I bet both are het for Ultramel and what you have there is an Ultramel (+ het for Lavender Albino).  The pattern looks exactly like Ultramel and from what I've seen the colors can vary quite a bit in different lines of Ultramel.  


This kind of reminds me of the Monarch project, the guy who discovered it popped out an unexpected snake that looks similar to this and named it 'Monarch', but I'm starting to wonder if was actually an Ultramel too.  I'd be really interested to see someone cross a Monarch with an Ultramel to see if they are compatible.  Speaking of which, a good way to prove out this guy would be to buy an Ultramel, pair them up and see if you get visual Ultramels or if you get normal double hets.  I'd say if it's not compatible with Ultramel you may have something new here and it could be significant.  If you could get your hands on a Monarch that would be an interesting pair as well...

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## piedpiperballs

Thanks for the reply,  I have plenty of ultramels I could pair him up with so I'll give that a shot when the time comes.  He's already 350 grams so it shouldn't be too much longer.  I'm still curious about the two normal het for lavender albino siblings and am hoping the grayish one is visual for a recessive trait.  I guess only time and experimentation will tell.

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## eldhosepp123

Either  bourgone albino or pastel ultramel. 

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