# Ball Pythons > General BP's >  Baby Ball in critical condition - how to switch from tube feeding to self-feeding

## Ellizaryn

I'm new, and sorry for the long post. I'll try bolding the important bits.



*I acquired a juvenile BP the day after Christmas* (a gift from my husband; I'd been asking for one for a while). The pet store gave me the feeding chart indicating that they got her in late November. She refused 3 feeds before *taking fuzzies the last two weeks before we purchased her*. We brought her home 48 hours after her last feed and she was blue-eyed.

*She had a beautiful shed* about a week later; settled in nicely. She wasn't taking any meals, but we weren't concerned as she had just shed, it was a new environment, and it was winter. *When she refused her 3rd meal, she measured out at 20in and 60g*, which I knew was on the small side, but I wasn't sure about her exact age and she was very active. She was drinking, defecating and urinating on a regular basis.

*Towards the end of February*, she started acting more lethargic--hiding more, and acting limp and indifferent when being handled. She weighed out at *53g and was starting to look dehydrated. I immediately took her to the vet.
*
The reptile specialist walked me through everything that could be wrong. I had already tried everything I could to get her to eat. I adjusted her housing and heating, tried a few things that I hadn't done yet (feeding live, shoebox isolation, etc.). *When she dropped down to 49g, the vet taught me how to tube feed her.*

*I fed her 1.5ml of reptile food nightly*, as instructed by my vet. My baby gained weight steadily, *jumping back up to 60g within a week*. Pooping, peeing, drinking, heat-regulating. By her 8th feeding or so, it was hard to get the tube in because she was so active. The tube doesn't seem to bother her at all, and she's back to her active self as soon as the tube is out. She's never been a snapper/striker, which is now starting to concern me (for feeding purposes). *I called the office and the tech (not the vet) told me to try fasting for a few days and then introducing solid food. She dropped weight so rapidly before, I really am scared of fasting her again.*

Nagini was on f/t fuzzy mice at the pet store. I dropped down to pinkies, but she's acting indifferent, if not scared of them. I've tried both live and f/t. This is my first BP. *She's gotta be at least 5 months old. Isn't 60g still really low for 20in? What should her target weight be? 
*
I'm wanting a second opinion on how to feed her (my vet is out of the office until Tuesday). I'm really worried about the fasting and want to continue with the tube until she's at a healthy weight--but I'm concerned that she'll either get stressed out by or dependent on the tube feeding. *How long can she be tube-feed before it's just a helpless cycle?*

I've been thinking to *maybe try force-feeding solid food*. She is surprisingly tolerant of having her jaw forced open--has never once tried to tag me. I picked up some frozen pinkies tonight. I offered her a fuzzy last night (I originally offered it live a week ago, then froze it and offered thawed). One of her hides is an upturned bowl with the bottom cut out of it. She doesn't have a problem getting in and out of it. Dropped her and the mouse in this hide overnight in the darkest room in the house. Woke up to a very stinky cage and an indifferent snake, both still in the hide.
*
Next Steps?

60g today; last meal 48 hours ago. Weight held. Urination regular.
Last meal offered 24 hours ago, f/t fuzzy, isolated overnight.
When should I (try to) feed her next?
How long should I continue to force feed?
At what weight should I consider her healthy?

*My vet will be back in the office on Tuesday, just wanted some other opinions.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

Not sure what your setup is but in general 99% of the time this type of feeding issues are related directly to husbandry and stress.

Assisting or force feeding or tube feeding is not something you want to do long term as it is very stressful, what you want to do is see if husbandry change can be made so the animal start eating for you.

The more you will tube feed or for feed this animal the more it will be stress,  the more stress the less likely it is to eat on it's own, the animal knows how to eat.

There is no target weight there is healthy look so this is what you goal is.

Offering fuzzies and pinkies could have been an issue as they are to small even for your BP and may not be recognize as prey but what I am interested in is your setup can you give me a run down on your setup, tub size, hide type and size, temps, substrate, do you handle this BP other than for feeding.

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*bcr229* (03-14-2016),_T_Sauer_ (03-13-2016),wolfy-hound (03-13-2016)

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## Kibbleswhites

Don't bother the snake for a week.  Keep the enclosure very dark, use a towel or something to keep the light out.  Give it a live rat pup with its eyes still closed.  Weigh the prey and pick one 9 to 12 grams and drop it in very quietly at night. Leave the rat pup in there, no peeping, for 2 days.  After 48 hours check the tub, the pup will either be gone or dead but can not hurt your snake with closed eyes.  If it does not eat it, clean the enclosure give fresh water and repeat.  I would try that two or maybe three times then move to assist feed as opposed to force feed or tube feed.  That at least lets the snake swallow on its own.  If you move to assist feed, choose a rat pup closer to 9 grams.  There are a ton of posts on how to assist feed but me, I grab the sake by the head, pry the mouth open with the prey's (nice and warm) nose, then put the prey in the mouth as far back as I can without shoving down the throat, then hold until the snake starts to chomp.  This may take several tries.  I usually only try 5 or fewer times before I call it quits for a few days.  After they have taken a few assist feed meals they will start to wrap the prey after it is put into the mouth.  This is the signal that they are ready to kill their own meal.  Good luck.

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_cristacake_ (03-14-2016),embrit345 (04-20-2016)

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## DennisM

what Deborah says.  there is something unsettling about  this whole story.  force/tube/assist  feeding is something that should only be necessary in the most extreme of circumstances. I'd bet that less aggressive feeding practices and appropriate environmental adjustments will result in a feeding BP.   additional stress is never a successful approach.

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## Kokorobosoi

Deb's advice is spot on, and we definitely need more information about the enclosure and equipment being used.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Give it a live rat pup with its eyes still closed. Weigh the prey and pick one 9 to 12 grams


Sorry but this is just not gonna work. First regarding the name a pup is considered at to be over 2 weeks old, the sizes you mentioned correspond to rat pink and fuzzy rats. Names do matter for the person that goes out to buy the feeder.

Whether you are dealing with non started or non thriving animals you want to offer mice, they are more enticing compare to rats, there is also an issue with the size you are recommending knowing that this animal has been reluctant to eat,  the smallest hopper which are usually around 7 grams will be best in this case.

Advising a 15% to 20% percent feed for this type of issue is just not recommended, the animal has been reluctant to eat and is weaken so smaller is better.

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ballpythonluvr (03-14-2016),*bcr229* (03-14-2016),Kokorobosoi (03-14-2016),PitOnTheProwl (03-14-2016)

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## bcr229

> ...what I am interested in is your setup can you give me a run down on your setup, tub size, hide type and size, temps, substrate, do you handle this BP other than for feeding.


I think these questions need to be answered first, or more specifically:
- What kind of enclosure?  Tank, tub, hatchling rack, PVC/melamine reptile enclosure, or ?
- What are the ambient air temperature and floor surface temperature on the cool and warm sides of the enclosure, and what kind of thermometers are you using to measure them?
- What heat sources are you using (heat lamp, UTH, RHP, etc), and how are they regulated (rheostat/dimmer, thermostat, etc)?
- What is the humidity in the enclosure and what kind of hygrometer are you using?
- Did you buy the snake from a pet store that specializes in exotic animals, or did you get it from a big box store (PetSmart/Petco)?

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## BCS

> Whether you are dealing with non started or non thriving animals you want to offer mice, they are more enticing compare to rats


Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Just because one animal may like something else, does not mean the next will. You may eat when chocolate is offered, but not me, I prefer salt over sugar... its all personal. I personally find that most of my snakes prefer rats over mice, but different experiences are talking here. I am not saying your snakes prefer rats over mice just because mine does. 

Now back to the original poster, are you able to get ASFs (african soft furred rats)? This is my go to for picky eaters. Get a live one. I know its hard to feed live but sometimes your BP doesn't give you the choice. I agree with the tube feeding, its definitely not going to fix the feeding issue. Don't keep trying mice though, your BP just may not be into them. Try rats, ASFs, even hamsters.

And also, do not feed it outside of it's enclosure. Feed in its home. Pulling it out can cause stress and make your BP not eat. If your BP is in its hide, leave her there and throw in a live prey item into the hide. But be watchful that the prey item does not harm your BP.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Just because one animal may like something else, does not mean the next will. You may eat when chocolate is offered, but not me, I prefer salt over sugar... its all personal. I personally find that most of my snakes prefer rats over mice, but different experiences are talking here. I am not saying your snakes prefer rats over mice just because mine does. 
> 
> Now back to the original poster, are you able to get ASFs (african soft furred rats)? This is my go to for picky eaters. Get a live one. I know its hard to feed live but sometimes your BP doesn't give you the choice. I agree with the tube feeding, its definitely not going to fix the feeding issue. Don't keep trying mice though, your BP just may not be into them. Try rats, ASFs, even hamsters.
> 
> And also, do not feed it outside of it's enclosure. Feed in its home. Pulling it out can cause stress and make your BP not eat. If your BP is in its hide, leave her there and throw in a live prey item into the hide. But be watchful that the prey item does not harm your BP.


How many hatchling have you started? How many animals failing to thrive have you put back on track? You can disagree but when offered a first meal you will get a higher percentage of success (hatchling taking their first meal successfully first time offered) if that first meal is a mouse (that comes from someone that used to start everything on rats and no longer does)


Not to mention that the animal in this case when it was eating was eating mice so trying to switch is the last thing that needs to be done at this point it need to feed what it used to feed on and again mice are more enticing. 

Do my snake prefer rats over mice? Yes they do but my snakes however are not the issue here.

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ballpythonluvr (03-14-2016),M.P.C (03-14-2016)

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## Ellizaryn

She's currently in a 10 gallon (12"W x 20"L x 10"H) plastic tub) with some vent holes. The vet's report suggested a 20"L x 10"W for a juvenile. I have a UTH taped to the bottom with the thermostat set to about 93F, the probe taped to the inside of the tank at the hottest spot, under her substrate (paper towels). The tub has half-inch rubber feet to give the UTH some air. The temp directly above this area is about 83-85F. It takes up a little over 1/3 of the floor space. The ambient temperature of the entire enclosure is at a very steady 80-82 during the day and 78-80 at night. I don't turn down the UTH because I'm having trouble keeping heat in. The humidity is a very steady 60%.

As for the inside: left is warm hide, the log is on the cool side, and the middle is water dish (it's under a turned bowl to keep it from spilling). It was hard to get a picture of her whole body, as she moves very quickly throughout the tub before picking which hide she wants. She tends to favor the left (hot) one during the day and the log at night. The substrate is paper towels, and I replace them the moment they get soiled (about every 48 hours) and wash it out weekly.

This was Nagini last night, after about 20 minutes of hanging out on my shoulders under my shirt. When she's had enough, she slithers down my sleeve and starts wondering around--very, active, flicking her tongue and acting the curious escape artist.

Here is the current setup:


 


I've been concerned that there may not be enough of a gradient because this ceiling is too high and that the snake may also feel a bit insecure. I've been planning to adjust to a flatter tub like this: 6H" x 18W" x 29L":

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B...ilpage_o02_s00


Here are pictures from the week after we got her, just after her shed. She's about 18-19 inches.

 







> Offering fuzzies and pinkies could have been an issue as they are to small even for your BP.


It was the vet who suggested going down to pinkies, due to how thin she is. I've tried both live and f/t pinkies and fuzzies. She acts almost scared of both presentations.




> Don't bother the snake for a week. Keep the enclosure very dark, use a towel or something to keep the light out. Give it a live rat pup with its eyes still closed. Weigh the prey and pick one 9 to 12 grams and drop it in very quietly at night. Leave the rat pup in there, no peeping, for 2 days.


I tried week-long isolation before, trying to feed her in the dark. My vet told me to put Nagini in a small enclosure with a live, blind mouse overnight. Didn't work. I tried putting it in the snake's hide and she followed it in. The mouse immediately rolled out of the hide as though Nagini just kicked it out. As you can see, she is very thin.




> There is no target weight there is healthy look so this is what your goal is.


Could you post some photos/links to healthy looking juveniles? I've only seen adolescents and adults. I wasn't entirely sure about her health when I first got her, but I knew she was very young and figured she would plump up in a better enviornment.




> force/tube/assist feeding is something that should only be necessary in the most extreme of circumstances. I'd bet that less aggressive feeding practices and appropriate environmental adjustments will result in a feeding BP. additional stress is never a successful approach.


Vet gave me a list of tricks to try, but told me to bring her back in if she dropped to below 50g, which happened. She said she was concerned that the snake wouldn't be able to process a solid meal due to the fact that she hadn't eaten in so long and gave me a detailed lesson on how to tube feed, hoping it would get her metabolism going.




> Did you buy the snake from a pet store that specializes in exotic animals, or did you get it from a big box store (PetSmart/Petco)?


PetSmart: she was a Christmas gift from my husband. If I had purchased it, I would have done more research on other options.

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## BCS

> How many hatchling have you started? How many animals failing to thrive have you put back on track? You can disagree but when offered a first meal you will get a higher percentage of success (hatchling taking their first meal successfully first time offered) if that first meal is a mouse (that comes from someone that used to start everything on rats and no longer does)
> 
> 
> Not to mention that the animal in this case when it was eating was eating mice so trying to switch is the last thing that needs to be done at this point it need to feed what it used to feed on and again mice are more enticing. 
> 
> Do my snake prefer rats over mice? Yes they do but my snakes however are not the issue here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk


I knew you would agrue, but this animal is obviously refusing the mice, even before the OP bought the BP. So obviously there is something wrong and it does not hurt to try something else... if the snake is simply not into mice, rats or ASFs are a good alternative.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> I knew you would agrue, but this animal is obviously refusing the mice, even before the OP bought the BP. So obviously there is something wrong and it does not hurt to try something else... if the snake is simply not into mice, rats or ASFs are a good alternative.


Because the husbandry is off not because the prey is wrong, trying something else as in alternative prey is only worthy once the husbandry is fixed and it still  fails.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

OP is he what you need to do as the enclosure is still way too big.

Get a 6 quarts tubs, lay 1 inch layer of aspen, get a 6 inches plastic flower pot saucer to use as an hide.

Provide a hot spot of 86/88 at the most on the hot spot and 76/78 on the cool side.

Even a dark tubs or enclosed rack the animal may still feel insecure so the smaller the tub the better.

Hides also need to be very tight hence the plastic flower pot saucer.

Aspen will also allow the animal to burry itself adding more security.

Once you have done the changes, NO HANDLING, no tube feeding, for a week, once a week as passed offer a live hopper mouse....it may fail at first given what the animal has been through but if it does no more tube feeding there are other options but you will see when you get there.

When offering leave the mouse near the tub for 30 min to an hour before feeding offering a little food and water. Than put the mouse in the enclosure and close the tub, try offering at dark. If not eaten remove after 20 min.

NO HANDLING un the animal eats on it's own 3 times if successful.

Your setup will look like this plus the flower pot saucer





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_Albert Clark_ (03-23-2016),ballpythonluvr (03-14-2016),_Chkadii_ (03-14-2016),Ellizaryn (03-14-2016),_GoingPostal_ (03-14-2016),_LittleTreeGuy_ (03-14-2016),_Marrissa_ (03-14-2016),PitOnTheProwl (03-14-2016)

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## PitOnTheProwl

Deb has it down.

I may have missed it but have you tried a LIVE small hopper mouse yet?

Also you vet doesnt really sound too reptile smart either.

Relax and dont handle the little one till you get it feeding.

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## CantHelpIt

> the probe taped to the inside of the tank at the hottest spot, under her substrate (paper towels).


People usually avoid putting tape in their enclosures because if your snake goes under the paper towel and rubs off the tape she could hurt herself. 

Other than that, I have no useful information but good luck on getting her to eat, you've been getting lots of good info

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## Mr. Misha

In regards to the housing, make sure that the hide you create/get for her is snug. The reason most Balls will refuse food is security. I'd also add fake foilage to the setup Deborah recommended. 

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_Albert Clark_ (03-23-2016),Ellizaryn (03-14-2016)

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## Ellizaryn

> People usually avoid putting tape in their enclosures because if your snake goes under the paper towel and rubs off the tape she could hurt herself.


I haven't heard this before. I'm using blue painter's paint as indicated in a tutorial form another forum I've been visiting. Where is the best place to put the probe?

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## Ellizaryn

> OP is he what you need to do as the enclosure is still way too big.
> 
> Get a 6 quarts tubs, lay 1 inch layer of aspen, get a 6 inches plastic flower pot saucer to use as an hide.
> 
> Provide a hot spot of 86/88 at the most on the hot spot and 76/78 on the cool side.
> 
> Even a dark tubs or enclosed rack the animal may still feel insecure so the smaller the tub the better.
> 
> Hides also need to be very tight hence the plastic flower pot saucer.
> ...



Six qt seems small. Is this what I'm aiming for?

I have Aspen but heard that it can choke the snake if she accidentally swallows it from feeding. Should I be concerned?

How can you have a "hot side" and "cool side" in a tub that small?

I also don't understand what you mean by the flowerpot saucer. So what is currently in the picture is the hide or a water bowl? Do I need both? Are the 6" upturned bowls I have pictured insufficient? Could you post a link to what I need to buy?

She's currently in an opaque bin. With a clear bin, do I just rely on towels to keep out the light?

Also, should I be worried about household sounds disturbing her?

Are these temperatures your recommendation for day and night, or should it be adjusted for night?




Thank you so much for you help.

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## Ellizaryn

Note about my post from above:

I have asked my veterinarian all of these questions, but I'm looking for new opinions.

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## CantHelpIt

I don't know about painters tape. Duct tape has been known to rip off scales from snakes, therefore i wouldn't risk any adhesives in the tank. 
The probe can go between the uth and bottom of the tub on the outside, then you can check your temps with a IR temp gun to dial them in. 
Some people have used hot glue to keep the probe on the inside of the tub but that is not as easily removed for cleaning/moving or anything else. 

That is the the correct tub. They measure approximately 14" long 8" wide. It may seem small but that is what you're going for, you want the snake to feel secure. Once it has been feeding well and put on weight you can look into larger housing. 

I would not worry about problems from the snake consuming a piece or two of aspen. When I used aspen I fed on it without a problem, not once did a piece stick to a food item ( I don't thaw in water so they weren't wet) but if you are worried you can put down a piece of paper towel or a paper plate as long as you watch they don't swallow the paper towel. 

A lot of hatchling racks using 6 qts will use back heat to create a warmer side or by using a narrow strip of heat tape. If you already have a big piece of heat tape I would simply put the tub with only a part of it on the heat tape. (probe between bottom of tub and heat tape) 

You should have a small water bowl and a hide. Its hard to tell from the pictures but if your snake can curl up in the hide tightly so its touching them on most if not all sides then it should work fine. 

As for sounds I wouldn't worry. Snakes sense vibrations and hear through sound waves so unless you have a blender right next to her she should be fine but to keep stress down it would be best to move her to a low traffic area. 

Lastly, the temps should be constant day and night.  A night drop is not needed

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Ellizaryn (03-14-2016)

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## LittleTreeGuy

> Six qt seems small. Is this what I'm aiming for?
> 
> I have Aspen but heard that it can choke the snake if she accidentally swallows it from feeding. Should I be concerned?
> 
> How can you have a "hot side" and "cool side" in a tub that small?
> 
> I also don't understand what you mean by the flowerpot saucer. So what is currently in the picture is the hide or a water bowl? Do I need both? Are the 6" upturned bowls I have pictured insufficient? Could you post a link to what I need to buy?
> 
> She's currently in an opaque bin. With a clear bin, do I just rely on towels to keep out the light?
> ...


Yes, that's the size tub you want.  Set it up so that your UTH is under about 1/4 of the tub.  If your room is around 70 degrees or so, if the hot side of the tub is around 90, the other side will take care of itself and sit in the mid-high 70's, which should be fine.  I'd cover half of it with a towel or foil, to keep some darkenss (help the snake feel safe, but still let it realize day/night cycle) but that isn't really needed unless there is a lot of activity going on in the room (other pets, lot of foot traffic, etc..).  The flower pot saucer Deborah is refering to is something like a very small bowl.  Something similiar to this: http://www.reptilebasics.com/small-hide-box  you can make one out of a butter bowl or small pot.  Or if you want to private message me, I'll send you one.

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_Lady mkrj58_ (03-18-2016)

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## Ellizaryn

> Provide a hot spot of 86/88 at the most on the hot spot and 76/78 on the cool side.


Idaho Veterinary Hospital:




> Temperature:
> 
> "The ambient air temperature throughout the enclosure must be maintained between 80-85F during the day with a basking area kept at 90-93F. At night, the ambient air temperature on the coolest side may drop to no less than 75F, and only if a basking area of at least 80F remains available. Considering your companion's situation, we suggest never letting the ambient temperature drop much below 80F. Always include a water dish."
> 
> Humidity:
> 
> "Typical humidity should be maintained between 50-60%. For your case, humidity may reach 70% due to her dehydration."


Those quotes are from a 5 page (single spaced) care guide that my veterinarian provided for me.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Six qt seems small. Is this what I'm aiming for?


It is you can pickup a 6 quart tub locally anywhere between $1 to $3

Being in a very small/cramped enclosure is the purpose the smaller the better it will provide the security your BP needs and I recommend that your BP is kept in a 6 quarts shoe box until it reaches 150/200 grams, once you reach that point it can be move to what you have now.





> I have Aspen but heard that it can choke the snake if she accidentally swallows it from feeding. Should I be concerned?


Nope the ingest and digest whole prey that have fur, teeth and nails and a little aspen will not hurt, I keep all my hatchlings on aspen have so for years without any issue.




> How can you have a "hot side" and "cool side" in a tub that small?


You achieve those temps the same way than you achieve the temp in any enclosure a small UTH covering 1/3 of the enclosure (if the one you have is too big simply move it to only cover that much of the enclosure, as for ambient temps it will be achieve based on the ambient temp.




> Are these temperatures your recommendation for day and night, or should it be adjusted for night?


Those temps MUST be maintain 24/7 year round, fluctuation for an animal that has issues are to be avoided.




> I also don't understand what you mean by the flowerpot saucer. So what is currently in the picture is the hide or a water bowl? Do I need both? Are the 6" upturned bowls I have pictured insufficient? Could you post a link to what I need to buy?


You do need both in my picture what you see is a water dish (which is a given you can use your or a smaller one if it does not fit) , I do not use hides unless I have a problem hatchling so in your case you will need to add the flower pot saucer to use as an hide, it will look like this once you cut a hole in it.



you can find them plastic flower pot saucers in the gardening section of Walmart, Lowes or home depot for about $1, the six inches ones are perfect size for hatchlings that size and in a 6 quarts tub you will only need one.




> She's currently in an opaque bin. With a clear bin, do I just rely on towels to keep out the light?


You can do that of buy a darker tub (around easter you can find blue and pink one at Walmart), you can still see through but they will be darker.




> Also, should I be worried about household sounds disturbing her?


You definitely want your BP in a low traffic area for now





> Idaho Veterinary Hospital:
> 
> 
> 
> Those quotes are from a 5 page (single spaced) care guide that my veterinarian provided for me.



The temperature quoted are way too high for the enclosure in question, a smaller enclosure means if the temperatures are that high it leaves very little room for thermoregulation, hatchlings also do better at slightly cooler temps.

85 ambient is too hot and if you were to keep ambient at 85 than you should avoid providing a hot spot. Your temps should also not have a 5 degrees fluctuation.

If you want to provide 80 because your vet said so its fine but the hot spot should still be no higher than 86/88

Your vet jumped to tube feeding  when it was likely not necessary and assisting would have been a better course of action if even necessary at all.

Again there should not be any drop in temperature EVER and temps MUST remain as stable as possible day and night.

Keep in mind that those are temporary changes until the animal eats for you with consistency after that it  you can provide another setup but the key will remain SECURITY which mean adequate enclosure size, hides that are very snug etc.

This is not an unusual problem and many people that are new to owning BP experience the same issue and in the majority of cases when changes are made the animal quickly make progress.

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_Albert Clark_ (03-14-2016),*bcr229* (03-14-2016),Ellizaryn (03-15-2016),_GoingPostal_ (03-15-2016),PitOnTheProwl (03-14-2016),_redshepherd_ (03-14-2016)

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## redshepherd

I just wanted to note that unless you are going to a reptile/herp-specific veterinarian... most vets do not have a single clue what they are doing or advising when it comes to snakes. They follow some outdated guide from their back cabinet, and give you advice on the fly according to their one pamphlet, whether it is correct or not. I've seen way too many people asking for help on this forum and other groups after following the improper advice of vets who had no idea what they were talking about when it comes to snakes, potentially making the situation worse.

You can do better with your own research online + advice from long-time keepers of many healthy ball pythons specifically, like on this forum.

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_LittleTreeGuy_ (03-15-2016),PitOnTheProwl (03-14-2016),Stewart_Reptiles (03-14-2016)

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## Albert Clark

Another type of hide that I find works really well for security is the cardboard end of a paper towel roll. They don't last long and need to be checked frequently for cleanliness. But they work really well. They also fit almost perfectly into a six quart tub.  :Smile:

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_AbsoluteApril_ (03-14-2016)

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## Kibbleswhites

I suggested the rat pup (cats have kittens, cows have calves, and rats have PUPS) weighed in appropriately because OP has tried mice and a rat pup with its eyes closed will not eat the snake making it safe to leave in there for two days.  I would not leave any rodent with its eyes open in with a refusing reptile for more than a couple hours, weaned or not.  Eyes open = teeth=ready to eat a live snake if need be to stay alive.  No need to bash me, I have raised hundreds of hatchlings and never ever have had to feed mice.  Not one single time.  I do not like mice and I have never had a hatchling not thrive just fine on rats from the get go.   Certainly worth a try!  Done.

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## Ellizaryn

So, what should be my next course of action?

I last tube fed her 50 hours ago. I will have the smaller tank setup by tomorrow (or today, Tuesday). Should I try offering her food again, or should I just put her in the new habitat wait (?) many days before trying to feed? When and should attempt an assist feed if she's not taking it? Is it best to offer f/t or live?


Thank you all so much for your help. I've had reptiles and birds in the past, but this is my first snake. I typically do a LOT more research before taking in a new animal.

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## LittleTreeGuy

> I suggested the rat pup (cats have kittens, cows have calves, and rats have PUPS) weighed in appropriately because OP has tried mice and a rat pup with its eyes closed will not eat the snake making it safe to leave in there for two days.  I would not leave any rodent with its eyes open in with a refusing reptile for more than a couple hours, weaned or not.  Eyes open = teeth=ready to eat a live snake if need be to stay alive.  No need to bash me, I have raised hundreds of hatchlings and never ever have had to feed mice.  Not one single time.  I do not like mice and I have never had a hatchling not thrive just fine on rats from the get go.   Certainly worth a try!  Done.


Your intentions were good, just some confusion/misunderstanding on the lingo.  When ordering or buying rats, a rat "pup" is around 30g-40g, and obviously would be way too large for this scenario.  The rat you are describing would be a rat "pinky" (still all pink, no open eyes, etc....)

If started on rats from the beginning, there is no question a snake would do just fine.  I think the statements above were just going back to the fact that THIS animal was started on mice, so it knows their scent and knows to associate that food.  They can and do react to mice and rats differently.  Yes, if it would take a rat that is fine, but I think the suggestions were made with mice to avoid any changes in what little this snake already knows.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> So, what should be my next course of action?
> 
> I last tube fed her 50 hours ago. I will have the smaller tank setup by tomorrow (or today, Tuesday). Should I try offering her food again, or should I just put her in the new habitat wait (?) many days before trying to feed? When and should attempt an assist feed if she's not taking it? Is it best to offer f/t or live?
> 
> 
> Thank you all so much for your help. I've had reptiles and birds in the past, but this is my first snake. I typically do a LOT more research before taking in a new animal.





> Once you have done the changes, NO HANDLING, no tube feeding, for a week, once a week as passed offer a live hopper mouse....it may fail at first given what the animal has been through but if it does no more tube feeding there are other options but you will see when you get there.
> 
> When offering leave the mouse near the tub for 30 min to an hour before feeding offering a little food and water. Than put the mouse in the enclosure and close the tub, try offering at dark. If not eaten remove after 20 min.
> 
> NO HANDLING un the animal eats on it's own 3 times if successful.


^^^^^^

This

Tube feeding has to stop it is just making the situation worse, in a week if she did not eat advise and something other than tube feeding will be done.

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PitOnTheProwl (03-15-2016)

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## PitOnTheProwl

> Your intentions were good, just some confusion/misunderstanding on the lingo.  When ordering or buying rats, *a rat "pup" is around 30g-40g*, and obviously would be way too large for this scenario.  The rat you are describing would be a rat "pinky" (still all pink, no open eyes, etc....)


Negative, that would be a weaned rat range.

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_Fraido_ (03-18-2016),_LittleTreeGuy_ (03-15-2016),SiXandSeven8ths (03-15-2016)

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## LittleTreeGuy

My bad, thanks Pit.  that's what happens when I think.   :Smile:

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## Ellizaryn

> Another type of hide that I find works really well for security is the cardboard end of a paper towel roll. They don't last long and need to be checked frequently for cleanliness. But they work really well. They also fit almost perfectly into a six quart tub.


How do you do this and what does it look like? Just cut the tube halfway down the middle?

I'm disabled and have to wait for my husband to get home before I can go to the store, but I have paper towel rolls!

How about my half-log hide? It does touch her on each side when she's inside. I also see her lying in a figure 8 in that hide as well.

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## Ellizaryn

> ^^^^^^
> 
> When offering leave the mouse near the tub for 30 min to an hour before feeding offering a little food and water. Than put the mouse in the enclosure and close the tub, try offering at dark. If not eaten remove after 20 min.



Offering which animal food and water?

And thanks for clarifying with the repost. It's been a while since I was last on a forum and keeping track of so many comments is taking a bit of a learning curve.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Offering which animal food and water?
> 
> And thanks for clarifying with the repost. It's been a while since I was last on a forum and keeping track of so many comments is taking a bit of a learning curve.


The mouse while you leave it near the snake enclosure for 30 min to an hour offer it water and a piece of dog food, always make sure a live feeder is well fed and hydrated prior to feeding especially when bought from a store.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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## Ellizaryn

Just a few last things:

Does this box need vent holes? Or should I just wait and see how the humidity/temp holds?

Hide on warm side, water on cold side?

How critical is the aspen? I think I may have to go buy more after all.

No handling for a week. Is replacing water and substrate every few days is okay? And can/should I continue to weigh her? I can do both without removing her from the box.

It's a clear tub. Can I just set her near my bedroom window with a white towel covering her so she gets no clear vision but still the day/night cycle? Or is being out in the open with a good hide enough? 

I know this has been commented on before. And sorry y'all if I'm being repetitive; I just want to get this right. My husband will have a complete meltdown if this animal dies, and our vet told us that it was likely -- which is why she jumped directly to the tube feed.

I've been seeing this vet for a long time--ferrets, birds, lizards and turtles, as well as my dogs and cats--but I may try looking for someone who focuses specifically on reptiles.



I'll be posting pictures once this is set up. I'm really upset and disappointed by the lack/inaccuracy of resources provided to me by both the store and the vet.

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## LittleTreeGuy

> Just a few last things:
> 
> Does this box need vent holes? Or should I just wait and see how the humidity/temp holds?  Put maybe 5 holes in each side of the tub.  Set it up with heat and water and wait an hour or so (with no snake in it).  Watch your humidity.  If your humidity is in the 80's or 90's, add two or three more holes.  Once your humidity settles in the 65-75% range, I'd leave it be.
> 
> Hide on warm side, water on cold side? Sure.
> 
> How critical is the aspen? I think I may have to go buy more after all.  I'd wait and see what Deborah says... she  has a lot more knowledge than I do.  If you don't have any, I'd think you can just paper towels for now.
> 
> No handling for a week. Is replacing water and substrate every few days is okay? And can/should I continue to weigh her? I can do both without removing her from the box. Don't worry too much about the substrate unless the snake makes a mess.  If she's not eating much, there won't be much poop.  It's likely she won't really pee that much either.  If there is any urates, just remove it if on aspen.  If on a papertowel, you can replace the papertowel.  I wouldn't weigh her for the time being (but again, let's see what Deborah says).  Generally no handling means don't open the cage or touch the snake as much as possible.  Replacing water every other day would probably be sufficient.
> ...

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## Kokorobosoi

I can't contribute any more than what's already been said, but I wanted to wish you the best of luck! I hope your little worm pulls through!

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## Ellizaryn

Okay, bear with me, I just want to get this right:

6qt tub with sturdy click-on lid. Below is the skeletal setup: UTH under the top and a folded paper towel under the bottom to keep it level. I drilled a hole in the upper right-hand corner of the tub and have the probe held in place with tape from the outside. In the bottom left-hand corner, I drilled a hole 2/3 of the way up and set the cool side probe on the inside with blue painter's tape.



Here's the setup once I've added the bowl, hide, and hydrometer:



And here she is hanging out in the bowl and hide (for size purposes):

 

The log is just small enough that she can access from either side though I could push it up against one wall to make a single entrance. I'm willing to get a different hide if it looks too big.

She's on our dresser at the foot of our bed, near the window but not in front of it. All digital readouts are on the side of the dresser, so I can keep an eye on her stats from my bed. The ambient temperature of *our bedroom is 74F with 44% humidity*, and very rarely goes below that. The ambient temperature on *cool** side of the tub is 75/76F with 56% humidity*. The *hot spot is under the log at 87/88F*, and it is *77/78F on top of the log*. I haven't drilled any other holes apart from the two for the probes.

My husband just got home with a bag of aspen for her, but I haven't added it yet because I wanted to make sure the rest of the setup worked. Do these temps sound acceptable? And how will adding the substrate affect humidity?


Again, thank you everyone who has contributed to this conversation. I feel like a terribly misdirected and irresponsible pet owner.  :Sad:  You are literally life savers.

Edit: And to clarify--don't disturb her until about Monday night, offer live well-fed/hydrated hopper in the dark and remove after 20-30 minutes.

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## beemaster

> The log is just small enough that she can access from either side though I could push it up against one wall to make a single entrance.


I'd personally recommend to do this.  Generally speaking, the fewer places of exposure (for light, entrance, etc.) in the hide, the more secure your snake will feel.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Okay, bear with me, I just want to get this right:
> 
> 6qt tub with sturdy click-on lid. Below is the skeletal setup: UTH under the top and a folded paper towel under the bottom to keep it level. I drilled a hole in the upper right-hand corner of the tub and have the probe held in place with tape from the outside. In the bottom left-hand corner, I drilled a hole 2/3 of the way up and set the cool side probe on the inside with blue painter's tape.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the setup once I've added the bowl, hide, and hydrometer:
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds and look perfect , you are definitely on the right track   :Good Job: 

And don't feel bad it's a common issue and so long you are willing to make the necessary improvement which you did it's all that matter, owning snakes is a learning curve.

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## LittleTreeGuy

My opinion, if your room is a constant 74 degrees, no need to have a probe on the cold side of the tank.  For your hot side, you can place the probe between the uth and the tub.  it may not sit completely level, but it will work.  It will work the way you have it just fine, but if there is a big mess of pee or water, it will run out that hole.  be prepared for that.

I would get ride of that log hide.  It's too big for a snake that size, and it doesn't provide the level of solitude that these snakes like.  I would take a look at this thread:  http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...DIY-hide-boxes  You probably have something laying around the house that you can make a better hide for your snake.  If you can barely fit your fist in it, it's probably about the right size.  I know it sounds petty, but I know that when I finally got the correct size hides for my bp, her whole demeanor changed for the better.

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## Ellizaryn

So it's been 5 days. I've kept the half of her tub facing the doorway covered with a white towel. I take a peek under the towel about once a day. I have not disturbed her apart from yesterday when I replaced her water. She is hanging out in the space between the top/side of the hide, the side of the tub, and the ceiling. It may be the tightest spot in the tank that isn't directly over the UTH, so she may just be happy there--but she hasn't moved at all since she was first introduced...I'm kind of concerned because she's usually moving around--heat regulating and such--and I'm not sure if she's drinking fluids. Thoughts?

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> I'm kind of concerned because she's usually moving around--heat regulating and such--and I'm not sure if she's drinking fluids. Thoughts?


I am sure she is drinking and apparently she is now exhibiting a normal behavior which mean staying in the same spot and not moving for long period of times.

Keep in mind that in their natural environment BP spend 80% of their time hiding in the same spot.

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## LittleTreeGuy

Most people will say a hiding or still ball python is a happy ball python.  It could be that before, she wasn't moving because she liked to move, but rather she was out looking for a place she felt safe.  If you move the towel, does she move her head, or flick her tongue at all?  If that's all she does, my guess is that she's content where she is.  

I've had my ball python going on 6 months and the only time I've ever seen her head near the water bowl was when she was dragging her rat through it.  If the humidity is up in the 60 or 70% range, she's probably doing okay.  Do you have a feeding day in mind?

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## Ellizaryn

I left Nagini is isolation for a full week. I kept temps and humidity steady, and a towel over the side of the tub that faces the room (so she'd still get day/night from the window but wouldn't see any activity). The first five days she stayed curled up on the roof of her hide, pressed against the ceiling of her tub. I replaced her water twice, but she never moved. Day six, she migrated to her hide (which is directly over the UTH) and started moving around the tub more.

I didn't have time to go to the pet store Monday, which was day 7, so I thawed a frozen fuzzy in warm water and presented it. She did not seem interested, but I left it there overnight to see what would happen.

The Tuesday morning she was out and pacing, acting like she wanted out or was looking for something, but the mouse was still there. I removed it and left her alone for the day.

Tuesday night around midnight, I removed her water dish and dropped a live, grey hopper (7-8g) in her tub and left her completely covered. About an hour after the scuffling sounds stopped, I opened her tub to return the water. No mouse! :Smile: 

Thank you all SOOOO much for your help! I've been so desperate to get my baby healthy. I have a few questions:

1) I have a second hopper. I've got it in a pet carrier with water and a bit of cat food. How long do you think it will live?

2) What's the best/most humane way to kill a mouse (if I decide to freeze it, or feed fresh kill)?

3) When should I attempt feeding again?

4) We're going out of town for Easter (Wednesday night through Sunday afternoon). Her temps and humidity have been stable for 9 days now. Do you see a problem with leaving her, or should I have a house sitter check in?

5) How/should I start transitioning her to f/t food, or is a steady diet of live fine/better?


Again, thank you again! I love this community and will continue to visit and contribute as my legless family grows.  :Smile:

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embrit345 (04-20-2016)

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## Caspian

Just a note from what you said there - first, congratulations on her eating! 

The note is that I don't believe ball pythons need any daylight. Naturally, they're nocturnal and spend the day hidden in a burrow or hole somewhere. Too much light makes mine very restless and uneasy - they noticeably prefer nice, dark tubs. However, I am no expert.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

First congratulation it's a huge step in the right direction considering where she was.  :Good Job: 





> 1) I have a second hopper. I've got it in a pet carrier with water and a bit of cat food. How long do you think it will live?


Hopper still nurse but also can eat some soft solid food (cheerios, wet dog food).




> 2) What's the best/most humane way to kill a mouse (if I decide to freeze it, or feed fresh kill)?


Which can be done with some dry ice for 1 prey you would need very little and you could also need a very small container. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...and-Humane-too




> 3) When should I attempt feeding again?


5 to 7 days




> 4) We're going out of town for Easter (Wednesday night through Sunday afternoon). Her temps and humidity have been stable for 9 days now. Do you see a problem with leaving her, or should I have a house sitter check in


Nope she should stay home anyway, taking her would be a step backward, causing stress and having to re-adjust all over again when back.




> 5) How/should I start transitioning her to f/t food, or is a steady diet of live fine/better?


It is easier to switch a consistent feeder than it is one that is not so I would recommend 5 consecutive successful live feeding prior to switching.

Also remember switching can take time with some animals which means tough love (no live prey if the animal refuses to eat) and this can be an issue since your BP is so small and given her history. 

When you switch offer the F/T as followed:

Simply let the prey thaw near the enclosure (this is called scenting) , once thawed warm the prey up with a hair dryer. Grab the prey behind the neck, and move it like a live rat would move. If not eaten off the tongs in a reasonable time frame leave the f/T in the enclosure overnight, some prefer to eat them this way.

If not eaten do not offer food and offer a F/T again the following week, if that one is not eaten offer live.

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## ReptiMoto

> 1) I have a second hopper. I've got it in a pet carrier with water and a bit of cat food. How long do you think it will live?
> 
> 2) What's the best/most humane way to kill a mouse (if I decide to freeze it, or feed fresh kill)?
> 
> 3) When should I attempt feeding again?
> 
> 4) We're going out of town for Easter (Wednesday night through Sunday afternoon). Her temps and humidity have been stable for 9 days now. Do you see a problem with leaving her, or should I have a house sitter check in?
> 
> 5) How/should I start transitioning her to f/t food, or is a steady diet of live fine/better?
> ...


1 My guess is a week (with cat food and water). Mice need exercise, like a wheel, and proper nutrition, like seeds etc. But you probably won't need to keep it alive for more than a week.

2 Cervical dislocation (this is the method I use and you can look up a video online). Or if you really don't want to kill it yourself you can buy some dry ice and kill it by CO2 poisoning. There is a thread on how to do this. I personally use cervical dislocation because you don't need to buy anything and you break the mouses neck. This method is just as humane as CO2.

3 In a week or if she is very active you could feed her every 5 days to get her up to size

4 That's up to you. I feel comfortable with my temps and have left for a week with no problem. You may need to keep some moss in there for humidity. But if you feel more comfortable with a house sitter then then that's fine too. (Someone probably has a better answer to this question then I do)

5 Pre killed is the next step. But if you have easy access to live food you should get her up to a stable weight before trying to switch her. Also you should try to have her eating rats before switching her. 

Thats just some of my input I have learned over the year. If you have any problem with switching to F/T there are many many threads out there. Good Luck  :Smile:

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## Ellizaryn

Nagini ate her third live hopper Tuesday night. I left her lid open so I could watch. I dropped the mouse into the far side of the tub and Nagini was out of her hide and on top of it in less than 30 seconds. It then took her 20 minutes to kill it, and then she spent about a half an hour moving it around with her jaw and tail until it was head first. It was very slow, and the mouse fur became very sleek, maybe wet? Twice she let go and nosed at her own body and around the tub like she was looking for something. Once she got the head in her mouth, the mouse went down fast. The whole thing took about an hour. Is that normal?

I was very happy I was there because she got a bunch of aspen lodged into her teeth and throat. After swallowing, she started yawning and rubbing her head against the side of her tub. I gave her a few minutes to see if she could resolve it herself before I opened her mouth and removed the blockage with her feeding tongs. She immediately returned to her hide and has seemed fine ever since.

I was concerned about the aspen. I asked my vet about choking hazard, and she and the people here insist say they've never seen a problem. She's going blue-eyed now so I don't know if an upcoming shed had an impact on her behavior. I don't want to see a repeat of the choking incident though. Tips?

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## Ellizaryn

Hi everyone,

My baby is healthy and getting fat. She's happily eating live adult mice and I'll start migrating her to frozen in the next month or so. Tonight will be her sixth feeding and she's out of her hide pacing and acting hungry. I don't know if anyone is still following this thread, but I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who contributed and say goodbye for good. You're legitimately lifesavers!

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_Asherah_ (04-20-2016),_cristacake_ (04-21-2016),embrit345 (04-20-2016),lorrainesmom (04-20-2016),_Prognathodon_ (04-21-2016),Stewart_Reptiles (04-20-2016)

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## embrit345

So pleased to read this  :Smile:  congratulations Hun xxx


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## greco

Regarding aspen as a choking hazard... I used to keep all of my snakes (a bunch of balls and a snow corn) on aspen. One night, about an hour after feeding, I heard the corn snake scuffling and thumping around. When I checked on her, I found her violently thrashing around with blood trickling out of her mouth. I held her still and opened her mouth to find a sharp shard of aspen lodged in the back of her mouth, almost in her throat. I extracted the aspen, as well as a snotty goober of saliva that I saw was built up in her windpipe. She was fine after that but I promptly switched all of my snakes to newspaper. 

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