# Other Pythons > Giant Pythons >  Big snakes, small enclosures.

## zackw419

Does anyone else feel that BHB aka Snakebytestv have their afrocs and other giant pythons in too small of tubs? They just seem really small to me.

YouTube - snakebytes tv.. pounding rats/rabbits

No offense I think they are great people and all. I was just wondering if anyone else felt this way.


-Zack

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## Denial

Actually brian is buying the 8 foot freedombreeders now I just got donw watching a video on youtube where he was touring someone and he told them on the video that is big snakes were being housed in to small of cages and he opened it up with the afrock in it and said see this guy can barely move. And then told the guy he was ordering all 8 foot cages

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_zackw419_ (05-09-2009)

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## zackw419

Thats good to hear.


link?

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## DutchHerp

Well I think the tubs are too small, but he even keeps large monitors in tubs... that's unacceptable, IMO.

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_zackw419_ (05-09-2009)

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## Denial

ill try to find it.

yea i dont think any commercial cage on the market are good for monitors

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## Denial

YouTube - Visit to Brian Barczyk's BHB (clean ver) + ball pythons

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_zackw419_ (05-09-2009)

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## waltah!

Not totally sure, but I think the monitors in those racks are there for feeding and not kept there all of the time. I seem to remember something about that from when the show first started.

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## Creeptastic

Ya, I remember watching a while back that those were feeding tubs

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## zackw419

> Well I think the tubs are too small, but he even keeps large monitors in tubs... that's unacceptable, IMO.


I know! I felt worse for the monitor.

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## zackw419

> Ya, I remember watching a while back that those were feeding tubs


I think the pythons live in those tubs. I remember watching him justify why they do well in smaller enclosures

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## zackw419

edit

double post

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## jp-reptiles

if you dont have the space to house 40 retics, rocks and burms
you shouldnt have them, retics, rocks and burms dont need extreme big cages but the way brian does it is animalcruelty in my eyes........
its all about breeding/popularity and lots of money i think....


  regards ''jp''

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## Denial

I actually think the popularity of these animals are going to go down in the next few years. Im kinda hoping for that.

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## jp-reptiles

> I actually think the popularity of these animals are going to go down in the next few years. Im kinda hoping for that.



i'm with ya on that!!......

  regards ''jp''

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## Denial

Yea I mean I love the big guys and I am hoping and praying to be able to produce some of my own but with all the news laws there either going to be banned or regulated and once that happens it will slow down on there popularity. I mean lets face it not everyone is cut out for big snakes. There alot of people that own snakes that shouldnt be able to keeps balls and corns not mentioning burms,rocks,retics,and condas lol

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Muze (05-13-2009)

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## frankykeno

> Well I think the tubs are too small, but he even keeps large monitors in tubs... that's unacceptable, IMO.





> Does anyone else feel that BHB aka Snakebytestv have their afrocs and other giant pythons in too small of tubs? They just seem really small to me.
> 
> YouTube - snakebytes tv.. pounding rats/rabbits
> 
> No offense I think they are great people and all. I was just wondering if anyone else felt this way.
> 
> 
> -Zack





> if you dont have the space to house 40 retics, rocks and burms
> you shouldnt have them, retics, rocks and burms dont need extreme big cages but the way brian does it is animalcruelty in my eyes........
> its all about breeding/popularity and lots of money i think....
> 
> 
>   regards ''jp''


Have any one of you ever actually been to BHB, met Brian, viewed the snakes in question, seen their setups?  Well I have.  I didn't see any snakes stuffed into too small enclosures.  I saw healthy animals doing just fine.  Rack after rack, tub after tub, I was allowed to look at, open or have Brian open anything I wanted to see without question.  

So again my question, before you decide someone of Brian's experience is doing it all wrong and you should judge him so harshly in a public forum, have you actually been at the BHB facility and based your judgement on your own personal experience there?

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## dsirkle

> Have any one of you ever actually been to BHB, met Brian, viewed the snakes in question, seen their setups?  Well I have.  I didn't see any snakes stuffed into too small enclosures.  I saw healthy animals doing just fine.  Rack after rack, tub after tub, I was allowed to look at, open or have Brian open anything I wanted to see without question.  
> 
> So again my question, before you decide someone of Brian's experience is doing it all wrong and you should judge him so harshly in a public forum, have you actually been at the BHB facility and based your judgement on your own personal experience there?


As it so happens I have been there and my assessment of the situation is the same as yours. I saw beautiful animals being conscientiously cared for by a serious crew of keepers.Brian is rightly proud of his facility and urged me to go wherever I wanted and to look at what ever I wanted.

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## jp-reptiles

than how could it be that the whole internet is full of short movies and pics of very large retics and rocks etc in very very small tubs from brian?????
i dont have doubts about his experience or something but i do not agree with the way he works with them, the picture in this topic with that giant in that tub with enough room for her and a watertub says enough for me, and i saw many more pics and movies of snakes in to little tubs and racks at brians facillity's


  regards ''jp''

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_DutchHerp_ (05-12-2009)

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## Denial

Franky
  If you watch the video brian himself says the cages in question are to small. The rock in that cage can barely move. BUt he also said he was purchasing 8 foot cages. I think brians a great guy and dont have a problem with him. BUt he knows the cages are to small.

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## jp-reptiles

> Franky
>   If you watch the video brian himself says the cages in question are to small. The rock in that cage can barely move. BUt he also said he was purchasing 8 foot cages. I think brians a great guy and dont have a problem with him. BUt he knows the cages are to small.


  ''amen''

  regards ''jp''

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## jp-reptiles

i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........

  regards ''jp''

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## Freakie_frog

I have no experiance to say one way or the other..How ever I will pose this to anyone that feels this way..I'm not saying either side is right or wrong. But to say "I think" is different than saying "in my 25 years experience keeping 80 of these animals, and selling them on the open market. I have seen....."

What are your experiences keeping these animals and selling them on the open market. 

How many years do you have keeping the animals in question?
Over the course of that time period how many different housing options have your tried?
What is the longest you've kept your breeding group and how many clutches have you produced?

Again I'm not taking sides but I'd like to hear that the people bringing this concern forward have as much or more years, experience keeping, breeding and careing for these animals as Brian..

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## dr del

Hi,




> i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........
> 
>   regards ''jp''


Or it could possibly be for the reasons they stated and they just disagree with you on your conclusions.

Considering they have actually visted the facility of and spoken to the man you accuse of being responsible for "animalcruelty in my eyes........" did it ever occur to you that you might be phrasing your concerns in the wrong manner? That is a fairly serious phrase to be throwing around after all and their first hand knowledge of the state of these and other animals under his care seemed relevant to me.

Have you thought of contacting Brian directly? Since he has stated he is aware of the problem and getting the larger caging maybe he could set your mind at rest.

And, on a personal note, I find your comments on the motivations of two honest and hardworking members of staff despicable and totally uncalled for.  :Mad: 


dr del

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## jp-reptiles

i'm working with giants for more then 17 years and tried all kinds of housings their are, and never got the idea that keeping them in very small tubs is the way to do it, maybe ''animalcruelty'' was a little bit overrated, sorry for that, his animals are healthy and breed so animal cruelty is out of the question....
like i said before, i dont doubt the experience of brian or his love for snakes
i just dont like the way he keeps alot of his giants, this has got nothing to do with how much experience you have or how many clutches or breedinggroups you have folks, also excuse for how i reacted on frankykeno and dsirkle, it was to harsh, i was a little bit irritated cause they where saying that no giant had a too small enclosure while there are pics of too small enclosures all over the net.......

  regards ''jp''

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_DutchHerp_ (05-12-2009)

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## Bruce Whitehead

> i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........
> 
>   regards ''jp''


If Brian has stated that the houses are temporary and that he is moving them to larger quarters, then what is your issue?

I have kept animals, in smaller enclosures at various times (for various reasons), but part of that is knowing the animals, and knowing their limitations, as well as the impact in both the long and short term. I trust that Brian knows that and if the housing was not adequate in the short term that he would have arranged for something else.

I know Dale and Jo very well, and know they are conscientious keepers that strive to provide optimal lives for their animals. So your accusation is baseless and trollish. Having been to BHBs facility may have installed a sense of belief in him on their part, and not a desire to *kiss butt* as you so eloquently put it.

Bruce

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## stratus_020202

I think we really need to give Brian a chance to stand up for himself. Has anyone tried to contact him? I sent him a pm, but did anyone else confront him about the enclosures. Or, just to attack him here when he's not paying attention. 

Sounds a little like a backstab to me.

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## Denial

Hey freakie frog here is all my information

How many years do you have keeping the animals in question? 5 years
Over the course of that time period how many different housing options have your tried? Ive tried building my own(failure) Ive tried vision reptile cages and animal plastic cages
What is the longest you've kept your breeding group and how many clutches have you produced.  I have not produced any clutches. This is hopefully going to be my first year producing some little burmese pythons. 


Dont get me wrong. I have nothing against brian he loves his snakes and he makes a living off them breeding. My point was being he was well aware the cages are to small. Arnt they like the 5 and half feet freedom breeders? I dont think fb makes a 6 foot I thought they make 5 and half and 8 feet. But he did say he was getting big cages so I commend him for that but I dont think being able to breed your snakes has anything to do with small cages. They will breed regardless. If you house me in a closest with a naked women I would breed with her thats nature lol. I like brian hes a great guy that does a lot for the industry and my only point was HE knows his cages are to small he said it on the video lol .

I would love to have his rock though that thing is amazing! Cant wait to add a rock to the collection. 

If I offended anyone with this post I am sorry. This wasnt meant to offend anyone with anything I have posted.

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_DutchHerp_ (05-12-2009),_zackw419_ (05-12-2009)

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## Denial

Im not trying to "backstab" brian. I think thats a little harsh. I dont even know the guy Ive just seen him on the web. But as far as I know he has had these animals for some time and they have always been housed in those enclosures so I doubt anything would be short term. But as I have said I have nothing to say to brian I have no problem with brian he said on camera he was purchasing bigger cages. Even if he doesnt purchase bigger cages its none of my business how he houses his animals. He is a high end breeder. He relys on these animals to pay his bills. He has thousands of animals so naturally there not going to get the biggest cages avaiable. But I just thought backstabing him is a little harsh. You  usually have to meet a person a know them to "backstab" them

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_DutchHerp_ (05-12-2009),_zackw419_ (05-12-2009)

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## littleindiangirl

JP, I have been there too in the big snake room, and there were no Monitors in racks, and the very few giants he has had we're being properly caged and lovingly cared for. 

Have these animals grown? Heck yea they have, such the need for larger caging.

Sounds like you are opening your mouth and spewing a load....  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## stratus_020202

Yes, sorry. That statement was a little harsh. I just think we should get his opinion. It seems wrong when he can't stand up for himself. Sorry D. Got a little carried away with that one.

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## littleindiangirl

I also wanted to mention, I think Bryan is well aware of the caging requirements for giants. The first snakes he ever bred we're two albino burms (believe they we're burms) a few decades ago.

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## rabernet

> i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........
> 
>   regards ''jp''


I think that you need to be very careful about the accusations that you choose to make here, especially when it is meant to discredit or disrespect any member of staff. Consider this a warning.

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## Denial

Stratus.
 No problem sometimes we get ahead of ourselves.

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## Denial

but I dont think brian really has anything to prove to anyone. He is well aware of how to care for his animals. And im sure them cages are on the way. I have always wanted to talk to him though about how he keeps them in there. I was considering buying the 8 foot freedom breeders. But I just dont understand how those big snakes cant push out of them things. Do they have locks????

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## frankykeno

> i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........
> 
>   regards ''jp''


jp you have about as much knowledge of who I am as a person, a snakebreeder and a Moderator here as you have of BHB's setup so I'll give your comment about my motivations for my post about as much credit as I give your comments about BHB, which quite honestly is nada.

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## zackw419

> Have any one of you ever actually been to BHB, met Brian, viewed the snakes in question, seen their setups?  Well I have.  I didn't see any snakes stuffed into too small enclosures.  I saw healthy animals doing just fine.  Rack after rack, tub after tub, I was allowed to look at, open or have Brian open anything I wanted to see without question.  
> 
> So again my question, before you decide someone of Brian's experience is doing it all wrong and you should judge him so harshly in a public forum, have you actually been at the BHB facility and based your judgement on your own personal experience there?


I don't think what I said is even close to harsh. Im just being real. FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN on the many snakebytes episodes, the large pythons seem to have little space for moving around in their enclosures. Sorry if you took it as a personal attack.

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_DutchHerp_ (05-12-2009)

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## zackw419

Edit....

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## stratus_020202

backstab : to attempt to discredit (a person) by underhanded means, as innuendo, accusation, or the like. 

That video was well over a year old. I'm sorry if backstabbing is a little harsh, but if you have a problem with him then ask him. All i'm saying is we should be able to hear both sides.

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## zackw419

> backstab : to attempt to discredit (a person) by underhanded means, as innuendo, accusation, or the like. 
> 
> That video was well over a year old. I'm sorry if backstabbing is a little harsh, but if you have a problem with him then ask him. All i'm saying is we should be able to hear both sides.




I know what backstabbing means. I wanted an explanation on how I commited the act.

The objective wasn't to discredit anyone.

My concern was for the well being of the snakes.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> My post was for the well being of the snakes.


If you are so concerned about the well being of the snakes why post here  :Confused:  why not contact Brian directly about your concerns?

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## Creeptastic

I am a reptile noob, but have been watching and reading about BHB for a few months now, as well as got my first purchase from them. I think that they are just amazing. I get so much joy out of watching what they do. All I see from them is professionalism, and so much love for there animals. I would love to go visit them one day!! I am extremely assured that they do nothing wrong to the animals, including improper housing. For anyone reading this, I would say to check out BHB, snakebytes for yourself...you will see a bunch of people who love what they do, and produce high quality animals.

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## DutchHerp

Guys, point of the matter is, Brian has these snakes in too small enclosures.  Yes, I've met Brian, yes, I've seen some of his animals.  He's a great guy, but that doesn't excuse him from housing them in too small enclosures.

He's obviously had that Rock for a LONG time, and thus he had PLENTY of time to get it a bigger cage.  That's a FACT.

And with all due respect, why should JP treat you mods any different than other people on the forum.  What are you, the Aristocrats of BP.net?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## blackcrystal22

> Guys, point of the matter is, Brian has these snakes in too small enclosures.  Yes, I've met Brian, yes, I've seen some of his animals.  He's a great guy, but that doesn't excuse him from housing them in too small enclosures.
> 
> He's obviously had that Rock for a LONG time, and thus he had PLENTY of time to get it a bigger cage.  That's a FACT.
> 
> And with all due respect, why should JP treat you mods any different than other people on the forum.  What are you, the Aristocrats of BP.net?


Who is to say what is too small?

Also, many of the examples show only half of the tubs pulled out, and many are 'crammed' because they are wrapped around their water bowl.  

No, they're the police of BP.net. And what happens if you assault a police officer in comparison to a normal person? A lot more.

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## DutchHerp

> Who is to say what is too small?
> 
> Also, many of the examples show only half of the tubs pulled out, and many are 'crammed' because they are wrapped around their water bowl.  
> 
> No, they're the police of BP.net. And what happens if you assault a police officer in comparison to a normal person? A lot more.


Hmm I wonder who's to say... well, I suppose any person with an IQ above 25 can tell that a 15+ft heavy bodied Python species should not be kept in a tub where it can't move.  And eh, the animal is quite fat.  

And yeah, police are federal officers.  Public forum moderators are, well, public forum moderators.  And they don't act like police, but like you-can't-touch me "police"

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Mettle (05-20-2009),_zackw419_ (05-12-2009)

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## blackcrystal22

> Hmm I wonder who's to say... well, I suppose any person with an IQ above 25 can tell that a 15+ft heavy bodied Python species should not be kept in a tub where it can't move.  And eh, the animal is quite fat.  
> 
> And yeah, police are federal officers.  Public forum moderators are, well, public forum moderators.  And they don't act like police, but like you-can't-touch me "police"


If I'm not mistaken, this forum wouldn't be here without them and their hard work towards it. So, unless you want to respect the ones that keep this place together and pulled it together in the first place, you can leave.

Everything your still saying is opinion. Give me informational facts about how these cages negatively effect the animals except for your assumptions of size and the fact that it can't move, because if two can fit in one to breed, I guarantee it can move. (Not that it would much anyway.)

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## zackw419

I know many of you feel this was a personal attack. 

I was just making a point that the enclosures look like they don't offer the large snakes alot of roaming space.

Aside from the whole "backstabbing" issue. Do you all honestly not agree with me? Is it not obvious the enclosure is too small for the afrock? I hear many of you have alot of respect for Brian and believe he is a great breeder and I hear that. But aside from that how can you agree that the cage for that afrock is a good fit?

Just because an animal can survive in an enclosure, doesn't mean its a good fit.

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_DutchHerp_ (05-12-2009)

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## blackcrystal22

> I know many of you feel this was a personal attack. 
> 
> I was just making a point that the enclosures look like they don't offer the large snakes alot of roaming space.
> 
> Aside from the whole "backstabbing" issue. Do you all honestly not agree with me? Is it not obvious the enclosure is too small for the afrock? I hear many of you have alot of respect for Brian and believe he is a great breeder and I hear that. But aside from that how can you agree that the cage for that afrock is a good fit?


I have been told from multiple sources that the larger the snake, the less 'roaming' space they need. Snakes that large won't roam, and curl up in one place until their next meal or breeding. 
They don't need a whole lot of exercise.

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## DutchHerp

> I have been told from multiple sources that the larger the snake, the less 'roaming' space they need. Snakes that large won't roam, and curl up in one place until their next meal or breeding. 
> They don't need a whole lot of exercise.


With all due respect, this made me laugh.  Out loud.

I agree, they don't need a lot of space.  But you should provide something bigger than a 6x3 tub!!  It's just unethical to keep a 17ft snake in something like that.

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## waltah!

I'm curious to know if anyone has notified Brian regarding this. I have not had the pleasure to visit his shop, so I have no first hand experience. I have a tough time believing that he does not keep his larger snakes properly. Are the snakes housed in those racks all of the time? Are they still housed there? 
I will comment that the mods and admin on this site do deserve to be treated with respect. I've noticed many disrespectful posts from new members aimed at mods and folks who have been around a bit. I do realize that just because you are new here does not mean that you are new to the hobby. I've also noticed that disrespectful noobs tend to not last very long around here.

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_monk90222_ (05-20-2009)

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## zackw419

> I have been told from multiple sources that the larger the snake, the less 'roaming' space they need. Snakes that large won't roam, and curl up in one place until their next meal or breeding. 
> They don't need a whole lot of exercise.


See, that's my point.

Just because a snake can survive in a tub that size doesn't mean you shouldn't provide it the space to roam when it wants to. Even if infrequent.

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## DutchHerp

> i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........
> 
>   regards ''jp''





> I think that you need to be very careful about the accusations that you choose to make here, especially when it is meant to discredit or disrespect any member of staff. Consider this a warning.


Where in the TOS does it say we can't "aggressively confront" the mods?  I never see you guys give people warnings when they talk like this to other users... but because you are a mod you have the right to do this?  Or am I misunderstanding?

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## Jerhart

YouTube - The Song That Doesn't End

Really people drop it.  Look, if you don't agree with how Brian keeps his larger Boids, don't buy from him, don't support him.  And just leave it be.

I respect Brian, he has done great things for our hobby.  He is one of the pioneers.  Do you really think he is the only one who keeps his large boids in tubs as such?  So why pick his husbandry skills apart?  Because you noticed something that rubbed you the wrong way on snakebytes?  Get over it...go watch the other episodes and learn something.

As for the admins...this site is hands down the best forum I am a member of...no butt kissing...I applaud them for some of the idiots  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  they have to put up with.  I know I wouldn't be able to do it without losing my cool.

This thread is going on and on and on....there are obviously two sides to this discussion.  Neither are going to agree so move on.

Geeze...

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_2kdime_ (05-13-2009),_Bruce Whitehead_ (05-13-2009),rabernet (05-13-2009),_RichsBallPythons_ (05-13-2009),_scutechute_ (05-18-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-13-2009),_waltah!_ (05-13-2009)

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## waltah!

For the record the mods here DO give the same warnings to regular members....I have the expired infraction points to prove it :Wink: 
I belong to lots of forums, and this one is the very best IMO when it comes to staff. They are helpful, fair, knowledgeable and always treat people with the respect that they deserve.

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_2kdime_ (05-13-2009),rabernet (05-13-2009)

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## jknudson

You guys have to realize that the original poster comes from a country where there are different ideals and beliefs, especially within this hobby.  Many Euro keepers prefer larger naturalistic vivs compared to a rack system, and there are different care standards that are the "norm".

Also, how well can a 15ft snake thermoregulate in a 5-6ft cage?  In my opinion not that well.  I know Brian said that he is getting 8ft FB racks, and that will definitely be much better for the larger animals, hopefully it happens sooner than later.

I have my opinions about the situation, but I'm not going to say how Brian keeps his large snakes is wrong, or that he's unethical, it's just a different way to keep something.  Personally I would prefer to see a snake that size in an enclosure with a much larger floor space (even so than a 8x2), so it can actually choose to thermoregulate or stretch out fully.

Just my two cents though.

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_Denial_ (05-13-2009),_scutechute_ (05-18-2009)

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## rabernet

> *i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt* and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........
> 
> regards ''jp''





> Where in the TOS does it say we can't "aggressively confront" the mods?  I never see you guys give people warnings when they talk like this to other users... but because you are a mod you have the right to do this?  Or am I misunderstanding?


Since you asked: 




> *16. No posts or private messages may be made or sent with the express intent to antagonize or discredit the staff.* Violation may result in your account being placed immediately on moderated status and/or permanent ban.


JP made a very clear accusation that my staff was somehow "protecting" Brian or kissing his butt, when in fact, they were sharing their own experiences on this topic and have no reason to lie or "kiss up" to ANYONE. Not only that - he accused them of lying as well.

JP didn't choose to call out any other person in this accusation that was also defending Brian, he chose to single out the staff members when making this accusation. 

So yes, he did choose to try to discredit the moral compass of two well respected staff members when he publically called them liars and accused them of having an alterior motive for their posts. He didn't "aggressively confront", he made very clear cut accusations in an attempt to discredit them and their posts in this thread. 





> *Disrespect Toward Staff -- 50 pts* 
> Open disrespect toward any staff member, *especially with the intent to* undermine their authority or *damage their credibility*.

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## mumps

Hello all,

Just joined this forum, after perusing it for awhile. This subject is very important to me, as I can't seem to understand why breeders, with all of that money at their disposal, who can get tax write offs from constructing enclosures, choose to keep their giants in these god awful tubs.  It's easy. It's inexpensive.  Blah, blah.  You've got nothing to do all day but take care of your animals, it's your job.  Do it right.

Anyone who says these snakes don't need room and don't move have obviously never kept giants (or have much interaction with any of their snakes).  If you have a giant, open the cage and leave it open.  You will quickly see how much they like to move, and how often they do so.  Now I am not actually recommending the mass release of giant snakes, just trying to make a point.  Same holds true for any snake.  Why do we try so hard to make our enclosures escape-proof?  Because they will move...

Chris

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## Egapal

> Hello all,
> 
> Just joined this forum, after perusing it for awhile. This subject is very important to me, as I can't seem to understand why breeders, with all of that money at their disposal, who can get tax write offs from constructing enclosures, choose to keep their giants in these god awful tubs.  It's easy. It's inexpensive.  Blah, blah.  You've got nothing to do all day but take care of your animals, it's your job.  Do it right.
> 
> Anyone who says these snakes don't need room and don't move have obviously never kept giants (or have much interaction with any of their snakes).  If you have a giant, open the cage and leave it open.  You will quickly see how much they like to move, and how often they do so.  Now I am not actually recommending the mass release of giant snakes, just trying to make a point.  Same holds true for any snake.  Why do we try so hard to make our enclosures escape-proof?  Because they will move...
> 
> Chris


Your posts shows a lack of understanding of business.  The profit margine on raising snakes is very low.  What makes you think they have a tremendous amount of money at their disposal.  If a business sells 3 million dollars worth of snakes that means nothing if the cost of running that business is 2,970,000 dollars.  Businesses have to take what little profit they do have at the end of the year and balance making money personally with growing the business.  You make it sounds like taking care of animals is fun.  My family has raised horses for generations.  I have not carried on the tradition.  You know why?  There is no money in it, its 7 days a week.  Although it is rewarding and some days are fun, there are only so many times you can do the same thing before its not fun anymore.  Its work.  

Although I would agree that Brian's giants need more room you have to remember that he realizes it too.  He is working on it.  You are transferring your human emotions to reptiles.  You should be very careful when doing so.  Animals and children want to run across the road without looking for traffic.  What they appear to want to your eyes is not necessarily whats best for them.  Go to your local mom and pop pet store and ask for a feeder mouse.  Now try this at 10 other pet stores.  Look at all of the conditions that all of the animals live in.  Not everyone can live up to the standards that everyone else sets.  Lets be happy that Brian takes such excellent care of his animals.  Lets be thankful that he admits on camera that he needs bigger enclosures.  He is truly one of the better ones.

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## 771subliminal

> See, that's my point.
> 
> Just because a snake can survive in a tub that size doesn't mean you shouldn't provide it the space to roam when it wants to. Even if infrequent.


do you lets your animals roam free, and let them go where ever they want when they want? do you let them go outside anytime they want?

im betting you keep them in some sort of enclosure and like you said just cause they can survive in a space that size doesnt mean you should.

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## Denial

The reason high end breeders like brian and some of the other top guys keep animals in racks like this is because of the number of animals they have. Its very easy for brian to go into the large snake room and slide a tub open pull the large snake from the tub spray it and clean it and  put it right back in. As to where I have 6 foot visions that open in the front I actually have to crawl into my cages when cleaning and scrub against the back walls. Which takes a longer amount of time. Its just when you have the number of animals brian has its alot easier to keep them in racks. It takes me 10-15 minutes to clean on of my racks but I have a stack of 6 foot visions from the floor to the ceiling and it takes me an  hour to pull everyone out and clean those things. Ive looked into fb racks for my large snakes but I just dont feel comfortable keeping a large snake in them I like to know mine are locked away and it seems to me that a snake that size could push a rack like that open. I talked with the guy from fb and he is suppose to be sending me pics of someway they lock those things. 

BUt regarding the other post. I do believe brian does make a decent living off breeding his reptiles. And im sure  he doesnt mind cleaning cages. If he didnt like cleaning cages he wouldnt have thousands of snakes. He does have the luxury though of being able to afford to hire help to clean them. I would of loved to seen when it was just him and lori. I bet they were tired all the time.

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## Egapal

> He does have the luxury though of being able to afford to hire help to clean them. I would of loved to seen when it was just him and lori. I bet they were tired all the time.


I know that you ment this post as a defense of Brian but I have to comment on one thing.  It is not a luxury to hire help.  Its a necessity.  Have you ever gotten sick.  I mean ever.  At least once every year or two I have a day when I am just useless.  Ever had an accident that made you unable to walk, or only have the use of one arm.  Ever have a family member in the hospital.  Ever have to go away from town for a day or two for an emergency.  Its not like Brian can ask his neighbors to come care for his animals.  With a quarter the animals Brian has its just plan irresponsible not to have help, above and beyond his wife.  A person can only work so many hours before they work themselves into getting sick.  Reptiles are more forgiving but even so animals can not wait for you to recover.  The overhead for running a business is tremendous and you can't assume that Brian has the means to run to the phone or computer and buy new enclosures on a whim, not to mention the space requirements, setup, heating, cleaning concerns.

Again I am writing this to the people who think that just because Brian has a large operation he is rolling in cash.  I live in an area with a lot of family farms.  Many of the family's have multiple millions in income each year and struggle to save a dime for retirement, kids education, or dare to dream a vacation.  You just can not judge someone unless you know all the facts, and non of us do.

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## Denial

I didnt say I was judging anyone. But to own that number of snakes, those types of enclosures, that number of employees, be able to tape a live show every week trust me I doubt very seriously he is strapped for cash. He may not be rolling in it but hes not loosing it either

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## mumps

I didn't mention Brian by name in my post. I also didn't say he was "rolling in cash".  I said if he chose to provide larger enclosures, a portion of the cost would be tax deductible.  That saves money.

If you can't take care of something properly, don't keep it.

Chris

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## wishexotics

> Well I think the tubs are too small, but he even keeps large monitors in tubs... that's unacceptable, IMO.



Just thought I would let everyone know. I had contacted Brian awhile back inquiring about his Sav's and how he keeps/breeds them. He told me he doesn't keep them in tubs, they have custom built enclosures. I don't remember the dimensions as I used an email account I no longer have, but rest assured his animals are properly kept. Also another point snakes don't generally need exercise. Most snakes have a very small range in the wild and don't move that much unless hunting for food. A python or boa kept in tubs I believe is acceptable, the problem with most keepers is over feeding and obesity or just poor heat and humidity levels. Another thing is a lot of snakes spend most of their time in dark hiding spots, so does that make keeping snakes in glass cages inhumane? They are more comfortable and calm kept in a setup where they are hidden. If it is all about what is best for the animals, people need to look at their natural behavior and keep them accordingly. Just my two cents. 

Brian has been doing this longer than most of the people on this forum, he is one of the leading reptile keepers/breeders. He knows what is best for the animal and does what is needed. Also with large collections like he has, it is next to impossible to keep all of his animals in cages. Just think of the space he would need, he wouldn't be able to keep up and it would kill his business. I am sure you can contact any of the large giant snake breeders and they will tell you they keep them similarly.

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## mumps

He also shows monitors in these tubs, and says they are "feeding tubs".  Yet we are never shown their actual enclosures...

As a keeper of large varanids, this is atrocious.

Chris

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## Denial

mumps my post wasnt directed towards you.

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## stratus_020202

> I'm curious to know if anyone has notified Brian regarding this.


I sent him a pm yesterday, and e-mailed on his website. I know he's been on since then becuase he has posted. I'm sorry guys, but it's hard to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves. 

However, complaining about it on here isn't going to solve anything. All we are doing is attacking each other. WHERE IS THE LOVE PEOPLE!!  :Razz: 

I'm sorry, on a more serious note, someone try and get ahold of him to see if he has anything to say.

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## 2kdime

I've followed this thread for a bit and I just have this to say...

I am appalled at what some of you guys are saying about Brian. I don't keep any giants but I do keep Blood Pythons that get a decent size. These guys jut don't need a real big enclosure. 

The fact that he keeps his animals in 6 foot cages at the moment shouldn't make a difference. The man has already stated he is going to be ordering 8 foot cages, realizing his 6 footers are too small. Problem solved!!

Some of you say that because you haven't seen an animals "home", and only its "feeding tub" that Brian deserves a bullet for animal cruelty. Shut your mouth, and call they guy up and talk to him personally. Better yet, go visit his facility and see what he does, instead of basing your facts on what you have or haven't seen in a WEEKLY video he is producing FOR YOU! 

It makes me so sick to hear people that share common interests to BASH each other. What the hell is wrong with some of you? As if we don't have enough pressure and fights coming from special interests groups and the government! Now we're fighting amongst ourselves?

Grow up people.

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_771subliminal_ (05-13-2009),ballpythonluvr (05-18-2009),_Buttons_ (05-13-2009),_cinderbird_ (05-13-2009),dr del (05-13-2009),Enser54 (05-13-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (05-13-2009),rabernet (05-13-2009),_stormwulf133_ (05-13-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-13-2009)

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## mumps

> If it is all about what is best for the animals, people need to look at their natural behavior and keep them accordingly. Just my two cents.


Show me the research that shows a snake has a natural home range of 3 square feet...

Chris

ps - _V. albigularis_ has a natural home range of 3 sq. km.

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_DutchHerp_ (05-13-2009)

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## waltah!

> I sent him a pm yesterday, and e-mailed on his website. I know he's been on since then becuase he has posted. I'm sorry guys, but it's hard to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves. 
> 
> However, complaining about it on here isn't going to solve anything. All we are doing is attacking each other. WHERE IS THE LOVE PEOPLE!! 
> 
> I'm sorry, on a more serious note, someone try and get ahold of him to see if he has anything to say.


You have to keep in mind that when you send Brian a PM he probably has 50 new ones sitting there when he logs on. He is on every Wed to post for Snakebytestv, but he also posts for it everywhere else as well. To say it's "tough to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves" is a bit much. He may very well still be unaware of this thread. BTW, i'm not attacking your post i'm just trying to make a point.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> And with all due respect, why should JP treat you mods any different than other people on the forum.  What are you, the Aristocrats of BP.net?





> Where in the TOS does it say we can't "aggressively confront" the mods?  I never see you guys give people warnings when they talk like this to other users... but because you are a mod you have the right to do this?  Or am I misunderstanding?


I think at this point you just want to stir up so I will make it clear again just in case you missed it on the previous page.

Baseless ACCUSATIONS are not confrontation or disagreement.

Accusing the staff in such a manner without any proof is nothing nore than an attempt to discredit the staff and it violates the TOS he agreed on, upon registering, so did YOU by the way.




> 16. No posts or private messages may be made or sent with the express intent to antagonize or discredit the staff. Violation may result in your account being placed immediately on moderated status and/or permanent ban.


Before you answer I would encourage you to read the TOS again

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/a...t.php?f=89&a=9

I will ask it again since some of you seem so concern about the well being of those animals. Did any of you talk to Brian about your concerns  :Confused:  or are you only capable of posting on a forum behind someone's back?

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ballpythonluvr (05-18-2009),_Bruce Whitehead_ (05-13-2009),_RichsBallPythons_ (05-13-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-13-2009)

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## stratus_020202

> You have to keep in mind that when you send Brian a PM he probably has 50 new ones sitting there when he logs on. He is on every Wed to post for Snakebytestv, but he also posts for it everywhere else as well. To say it's "tough to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves" is a bit much. He may very well still be unaware of this thread. BTW, i'm not attacking your post i'm just trying to make a point.


Yes, your right. I'm sure he's plenty busy. I'm just being impatient. It would be nice to put this thing to rest once in for all. I'm ready for a lock, but he deserves a chance.

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## Bruce Whitehead

> For the record the mods here DO give the same warnings to regular members....I have the expired infraction points to prove it


Ditto on that. I think we have a few matched sets.  :Smile:

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## wilomn

I wonder why any of you think Brian owes you anything.

If I were Brian I may just ignore the lot of you, just let you sit on your thumbs and spin to your heart's content.

Back when I kept large burms I was in the same room with them 8 to 12 hours a day at least 5 days a week. I produced a LOT of burms. I also recall them moving very little.

Some of you guys, you experts with little to no personal experience, need to realize that while you may well have an opinion, you have no basis, no right, to tell someone how to keep their snakes and lizards.

All these doggone high horses have left quite a mess around here. I ASSume those of you who rode them in will now be cleaning up after them.

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_2kdime_ (05-13-2009),_771subliminal_ (05-13-2009),ballpythonluvr (05-18-2009),_Buttons_ (05-13-2009),dr del (05-13-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (05-13-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009),_monk90222_ (05-20-2009),_mooingtricycle_ (05-13-2009),rabernet (05-13-2009),_RichsBallPythons_ (05-13-2009),_Royal Morphz_ (05-18-2009),Salem Purrs (05-22-2009),_Spaniard_ (05-13-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (05-13-2009),_stormwulf133_ (05-13-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-13-2009),_waltah!_ (05-13-2009),_West Coast Jungle_ (05-13-2009)

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## Denial

I dont think brian needs to respond to anything. How he keeps his animals is his business. Just like how everyone keeps there animals is there business. Ive met people with water monitors they keep in the bathroom and anacondas they keep in closests with no heat. I dont think thats safe but thats m.o. Brian is a very busy man and im sure he doesnt have time to respond to all of us. This same thread though ahs popped up on a few forums and im sure hes seen at least one of them bashing his cages. I remember when the video of the nile in the tub came out there was quite a few people that were bashing him on numerous threads for seeing that so im sure hes aware of all that but he cant please everyone no one can and its not his problem to please everyone. Those are his snakes and he will house them the way he wants. Alot of people may not like it but I dont like seeing people walking around the mall with ball pythons wrapped around there wrists but I see it everyweekend. And seeing people carry burms down the sidewalk. Even saw a guy with a redtail boa wrapped around the front of his trusck driving down the road at the beach last week. but thats there snakes and they can do with them what they please. I never rode in here on a horse. IM not to fond of horses lol. But there will always be people arguing over what size tank they think is right and some people think that is they breed for you then they are happy and healthy but as I stated earlier you could lock me in a closest for the rest of my life and feed me and stick a naked chick in there and I would breed with her and still live. Now I may not enjoy being stuck in a closest all my life but I would survive lol

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_waltah!_ (05-13-2009)

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## rabernet

> I sent him a pm yesterday, and e-mailed on his website. I know he's been on since then becuase he has posted. I'm sorry guys, but it's hard to fight for someone who won't fight for themselves. 
> 
> However, complaining about it on here isn't going to solve anything. All we are doing is attacking each other. WHERE IS THE LOVE PEOPLE!! 
> 
> I'm sorry, on a more serious note, someone try and get ahold of him to see if he has anything to say.


If I were Brian, I wouldn't bother to respond to forum gossip either, where he's already been charged, tried and convicted by some of the participants.

What could he possibly have to gain from it, besides being accused of lying by those who have already chosen not to go straight to the source but have chosen instead to gossip on an internet forum about him?

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## waltah!

> as I stated earlier you could lock me in a closest for the rest of my life and feed me and stick a naked chick in there and I would breed with her and still live. Now I may not enjoy being stuck in a closest all my life but I would survive lol


Thanks for that, Danny :sploosh:

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_Denial_ (05-13-2009)

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## stratus_020202

> If I were Brian, I wouldn't bother to respond to forum gossip either, where he's already been charged, tried and convicted by some of the participants.
> 
> What could he possibly have to gain from it, besides being accused of lying by those who have already chosen not to go straight to the source but have chosen instead to gossip on an internet forum about him?


Yes, I suppose your right. With an operation that big, your bound to have a little negativity.  :Smile:  I would love to tour his facility. I can only hope I get the opportunity someday.

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## wilomn

> I dont think brian needs to respond to anything. How he keeps his animals is his business. Just like how everyone keeps there animals is there business. Ive met people with water monitors they keep in the bathroom and anacondas they keep in closests with no heat. I dont think thats safe but thats m.o. Brian is a very busy man and im sure he doesnt have time to respond to all of us. This same thread though ahs popped up on a few forums and im sure hes seen at least one of them bashing his cages. I remember when the video of the nile in the tub came out there was quite a few people that were bashing him on numerous threads for seeing that so im sure hes aware of all that but he cant please everyone no one can and its not his problem to please everyone. Those are his snakes and he will house them the way he wants. Alot of people may not like it but I dont like seeing people walking around the mall with ball pythons wrapped around there wrists but I see it everyweekend. And seeing people carry burms down the sidewalk. Even saw a guy with a redtail boa wrapped around the front of his trusck driving down the road at the beach last week. but thats there snakes and they can do with them what they please. I never rode in here on a horse. IM not to fond of horses lol. But there will always be people arguing over what size tank they think is right and some people think that is they breed for you then they are happy and healthy but as I stated earlier you could lock me in a closest for the rest of my life and feed me and stick a naked chick in there and I would breed with her and still live. Now I may not enjoy being stuck in a closest all my life but I would survive lol


You however, unless you are from the midwest, LOL, were not designed for a sedentary lifestyle. Big pythons were.

See the difference there?

Comparing mammalian needs with reptilian needs is valuable to this discussion how?

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## littleindiangirl

BTW, not all three or four of the people you see on youtube is all of his help.  Bryan spends (from his own mouth on his skits) most of his day in the office returning calls and emails. 

If you've ever been near the guy when he isn't working, his phone literally rings NON STOP, and that was before this huge popularity boost in his videos.

He has a crew of people working for him daily, every single day of the week. Lori is an awesome woman and does the heavy lifting in regards to managing the care of the animals and crew.

Again, I am so disgusted to see these really wild accusations, even ones that Bryan himself has already answered (i.e. Monitor feeding).

Should we make a magazine? The BB (Big breeders) weekly? Where people with no life and full of spite go around and judge what the big guys do during the week?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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_2kdime_ (05-13-2009),_771subliminal_ (05-13-2009),_Drew87_ (05-13-2009)

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## Denial

> You however, unless you are from the midwest, LOL, were not designed for a sedentary lifestyle. Big pythons were.
> 
> See the difference there?
> 
> Comparing mammalian needs with reptilian needs is valuable to this discussion how?


Im just saying that noone knows exactly how much space a snake needs. But they can live and breed in tubs. Humans could live and breed in closests we wouldnt like it but my point is we could survive with it. Alot of people dont think big snakes like to move but reticulated pythons for instance are VERY active snakes. They enjoy climbing and roaming and everything my retics NEVER stay still my burms are completly different Ive had chloe in a 6 foot vision for over 2 years and Ive seen her on the opposite side once a week to get her food from me. My retics on the  other hand pace back and forth there cages all the time. buts it not convient to have huge cages when you have a certain amount of snakes.

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## Denial

Thanks waltah glad someone got a laugh out of that is was meant to lighten things up lol.

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## wilomn

> BTW, not all three or four of the people you see on youtube is all of his help.  Bryan spends (from his own mouth on his skits) most of his day in the office returning calls and emails. 
> 
> If you've ever been near the guy when he isn't working, his phone literally rings NON STOP, and that was before this huge popularity boost in his videos.
> 
> He has a crew of people working for him daily, every single day of the week. Lori is an awesome woman and does the heavy lifting in regards to managing the care of the animals and crew.
> 
> Again, I am so disgusted to see these really wild accusations, even ones that Bryan himself has already answered (i.e. Monitor feeding).
> 
> Should we make a magazine? The BB (Big breeders) weekly? Where people with no life and full of spite go around and judge what the big guys do during the week?


There are some real scumbag breeders out there and I don't really see a problem with the initial query here.

The problem is the ASSumption by some that THEY know better.

Brian is a good guy, has always been a good guy and should, because of that long standing goodguyness, not have to put up with nonsense like unfounded accusations from well meaning but knowledge lacking people.

Sigh.

Folks, reputation is important. If 30 people, 27 of whom have excellent reputations and 3 of whom have good ones but personalities that are abrasive yet all agree that someone not in that group is not only a good guy but doing things in at the minimum an acceptable, if not above necessary manner, chances are good that you, if you think all 30 are wrong, are yourself in error.

It's ok to be wrong, it's fine to question. The thing is, when you don't know as much as those who are telling you you're wrong, you need to double check your original assertions and make adjustments to your knowledge based on what you have learned from those who know more than you.

Just because you know how to use YouTube does not make you an expert. Reading a caresheet written by someone who once read a caresheet, does not make you an expert. Knowing a guy who keeps his burm a certain way, does not make you an expert.

Years of experience. Successful successive breeding. Healthy animals. Satisfied customers. Actual knowledge. THESE things make you an expert.

There's a reason 4th graders don't teach college English.

Can you figure out what it is? The same applies here.

----------


## wilomn

> Im just saying that noone knows exactly how much space a snake needs. But they can live and breed in tubs. Humans could live and breed in closests we wouldnt like it but my point is we could survive with it. Alot of people dont think big snakes like to move but reticulated pythons for instance are VERY active snakes. They enjoy climbing and roaming and everything my retics NEVER stay still my burms are completly different Ive had chloe in a 6 foot vision for over 2 years and Ive seen her on the opposite side once a week to get her food from me. My retics on the  other hand pace back and forth there cages all the time. buts it not convient to have huge cages when you have a certain amount of snakes.


Perhaps there is a lack in your keeping.

I've kept retics, never had one bigger than about 22 ft, but once they hit the 12 to 14 foot mark they were markedly less active. Maybe yours are hungry.

You may want to rethink your closet analogy too. Without sunlight most diurnal mammals would not last long for more reasons than need discourse here and now.

Again, comparing mammals to reptiles is adding value how?

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## Denial

Well if you keep or kept retics you would know they are ALWAYS hungry. No matter how you feed them. I feed my animals weekly so they do have belly fulls but if offered they would take more without a second look.

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## wilomn

> Well if you keep or kept retics you would know they are ALWAYS hungry. No matter how you feed them. I feed my animals weekly so they do have belly fulls but if offered they would take more without a second look.


So said by the expert.

Gotcha.

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## stratus_020202

Whoa! This is going in a bad direction. I think the op has his answer. Are the enclosures in question small? Yes. Obviously he has/is going to change them. There is nothing we can do about it. 

His animals are beautiful, and not looking like they are taking damage. So are Denial's.

 :Locked:  Please  :Smile:

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_Denial_ (05-13-2009),_DutchHerp_ (05-13-2009),_zackw419_ (05-13-2009)

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## Egapal

> You may want to rethink your closet analogy too. Without sunlight most diurnal mammals would not last long for more reasons than need discourse here and now.
> 
> Again, comparing mammals to reptiles is adding value how?


Wilomn makes a point that I guess can just not be made enough.  Comparing people to snakes is very misleading.  But for the sake of argument lets look at people.  People are routinely put in prisons where they are given what they need to be physically and mentally healthy (at least as much as they were before prison).  

Many people choose to live in boxes no bigger than 1000 to 2000 square feet with ceilings sometimes only 8 to 10 feet high.  Often its hard to get humans out of these boxes and if they do come out, its not for long.  Humans will scurry from one box to another and seam perfectly happy.  Thats what humans need/want to be happy.  If you have a problem with keeping animals in captivity that's one thing, but if you have a problem keeping certain species of animal in a specific enclosure you best have a lot of experience with that specific species before you attack someones reputation.

----------

_littleindiangirl_ (05-13-2009)

----------


## Denial

wilomn

  Im by no means an expert and never ever said anything that I was. However you can ask anyone that keeps retics they are active pythons.

----------


## Jerhart

A full snake, is a lazy snake.  Process of digestion.

----------


## Denial

I dont like arguing and this seems to be where this post is heading. I agree with stratus the op has his answer from both sides. Every one is intitled to there opinion I support everyones opinions. I do agree a full snake is a lazy snake but "in my experience" With my reticulated pythons they are never lazy. Once again I would like to point out thats in my experience with "my retics". Everyone have a good day! Im going to clean cages. Maybe snap some new pics to post!

Danny

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_DutchHerp_ (05-13-2009)

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## zackw419

> So said by the expert.
> 
> Gotcha.


Cmon now. It feels like your pushing for a shove.

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-13-2009)

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## stratus_020202

> Maybe snap some new pics to post!


Don't tease me like that Danny! Let's see some of those "underfed" beauties!!

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## Nate

> Please


no.

There is nothing wrong with debate and discussion.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009)

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## wilomn

A full snake is a lazy snake?

Well, it's a load of crap is what it is, literally as well as figuratively.

Lazy is a human condition, not a reptilian one.

A content snake, a snake with no need to be on the hunt, a snake warm and secure is................oh, of course, lazy.

I've no doubt Denial keeps his snakes in good conditions.

I agree that he is not an expert.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009)

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## waltah!

I don't keep retics and I am no expert. I am around a friend's retics. They are still pretty active, even within a couple of days after feeding. They are definitely NOT underfed. I know that most pythons and boas tend to be lazy after feeding, but I would not put retics in that category. Just my opinion in my limited experience.

----------


## wilomn

Retics are absolutely more active than burms or rocks.

Is that the topic now?

----------


## mumps

> no.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with debate and discussion.


Agreed.

Does BHB produce absolutely beautiful animals?  Yes

Is he a pioneer in the production of beautiful morphs?  Yes

Does he genuinely care about his animals?  Appears so

However, he is a business, not a "keeper".  I can totally understand the _need_ to house his animals the way he does, what I don't agree with is the newbie/inexperienced pet owner thinking that this is the way that snakes _should_ be kept.

I get a lot of grief for my beliefs, not only on this subject either, but in over 30 years of keeping reptiles I have learned a thing or two, and not from "someone else's setups" or "someone's care sheet".  I have kept every species of giant snake except for _Morelia amethystina_, and they all benefit from an enclosure that allows them to do more than curl up.

Here's a suggestion to some of you:

Go into your herp room and look at your snakes _after lights out_.  It's truly amazing what you will see!  Of course if all you see is a bunch of tubs that look no different than they did at 1pm then I'm just beating a dead horse here...

And I agree with Denial. If you have a retic in a tub, you are committing animal cruelty.

Chris

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-13-2009),_Egapal_ (05-13-2009),_zackw419_ (05-13-2009)

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## Jerhart

> A full snake is a lazy snake?
> 
> Well, it's a load of crap is what it is, literally as well as figuratively.
> 
> Lazy is a human condition, not a reptilian one.
> 
> A content snake, a snake with no need to be on the hunt, a snake warm and secure is................oh, of course, lazy.
> 
> I've no doubt Denial keeps his snakes in good conditions.
> ...


Figure of speech, 'brother' <---- also a figure of speech.

----------


## wilomn

"Should" be kept....

"animal cruelty"....

Another expert with another opinion....

It's not news, not to me anyway, that nocturnal snakes, which all snakes with elliptical pupils are as far as I know, more active at night.

Does that mean you who keep them should only feed when it's dark? Isn't it also cruel to make them eat in daylight when they are normally and biologically disposed to feed at night?

Snakes need to eat, thermoregulate and breed. They don't run marathons. They don't live in closets, though many do prefer tight enclosed spaces for long durations, most do not gather socially and none of the species discussed here do at all.

Anthropomorphism. 

Bigger is better for us and may induce what appears to be reptilian exercise or exploration but how do we know it's not just a snake looking for a comfy spot to curl up and wait for it's next meal and not the assumed snake out for a slither to visit friends?

I'm not taking either side here as both work. 

It's just funny to me that some of you say you don't have a problem with certain things EVEN THOUGH THOSE CERTAIN THINGS ARE WRONG.

Maybe I'm just anthropomorphizing that though.

----------

Mettle (05-20-2009)

----------


## zackw419

> "Should" be kept....
> 
> "animal cruelty"....
> 
> Another expert with another opinion....
> 
> It's not news, not to me anyway, that nocturnal snakes, which all snakes with elliptical pupils are as far as I know, more active at night.
> 
> Does that mean you who keep them should only feed when it's dark? Isn't it also cruel to make them eat in daylight when they are normally and biologically disposed to feed at night?
> ...


Bigger isn't necessarily better but an enclosure that allows a snake to stretch out a bit isn't considered 'big'. IMO

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_DutchHerp_ (05-13-2009)

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## stratus_020202

> Snakes need to eat, thermoregulate and breed. They don't run marathons. They don't live in closets, though many do prefer tight enclosed spaces for long durations, most do not gather socially and none of the species discussed here do at all.
> 
> Anthropomorphism. 
> 
> Bigger is better for us and may induce what appears to be reptilian exercise or exploration but how do we know it's not just a snake looking for a comfy spot to curl up and wait for it's next meal and not the assumed snake out for a slither to visit friends?


Sometimes it may be harsh, but the way you analyze things crack me up. I know your not trying to be funny, but i get a kick out of it. You are definately unique. lol. It's great!

----------


## wilomn

> IMO


There's the rub.

Who's IMO is more valid? Is anyone's? If so, why? From there rules, guidleines, standards, all evolve.

----------

_blackcrystal22_ (05-13-2009)

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## mumps

Yes, snakes like to curl up in tight spaces.  Sometimes they like to go hunt.  Sometimes they like to swim.  Sometimes they like to do other things.

We should be offering them the ability to _choose_.

Chris

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-13-2009),_zackw419_ (05-13-2009)

----------


## wilomn

> Yes, snakes like to curl up in tight spaces.  Sometimes they like to go hunt.  Sometimes they like to swim.  Sometimes they like to do other things.
> 
> We should be offering them the ability to _choose_.
> 
> Chris


Those of us who are trying to simulate a natural environment, yes.

Those who are keeping and breeding but not trying to recreate the great outdoors indoors, no.

Standards and obligations. There are none of one and lack of definition for the other.

It's words like SHOULD, and MUST, ONLY and HAVE TO; they just irritate me.

They imply that things must be a certain way when in fact the do not have to be. Not everyone can see an implication as just that, something implied. They are unable to differentiate it from law, which is also rather arbitrary when you come right down to it, and a recommended but not mandatory, way of accomplishing a goal.

Like I have implied and am now stating, do it if you feel like it but don't assume your snake needs/wants/or appreciates what you have done.

----------


## AjBalls

> JP, I have been there too in the big snake room, and there were no Monitors in racks, and the very few giants he has had we're being properly caged and lovingly cared for. 
> 
> Have these animals grown? Heck yea they have, such the need for larger caging.
> 
> Sounds like you are opening your mouth and spewing a load....


I have all the respect in the world for Brian, but I don't see the need to put a 6' Nile monitor in a 5'6" tub for feeding purposes. Especially when it is recommended that monitors have a cage twice their length. I wouldn't want to move a possibly still hungry 6' Nile that could rip your finger off, I don't even like messing with Niles half that size. Or upset the monitors stomach and have it regurgitate.
About 4:30 in on this video= YouTube - SnakeBytesTV- Our diggs and a huge Monitor lizard feeding!!!

I don't suppose you saw where that particular monitor was kept as a 'non feeding' cage?

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CeraDigital (05-14-2009)

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## wilomn

> I have all the respect in the world for Brian, but I don't see the need to put a 6' Nile monitor in a 5'6" tub for feeding purposes. Especially when it is recommended that monitors have a cage twice their length.
> About 4:30 in on this video= YouTube - SnakeBytesTV- Our diggs and a huge Monitor lizard feeding!!!
> 
> I don't suppose you saw where that particular monitor was kept as a 'non feeding' cage?


Have you ever watched a monitor eviscerate its food and then proceed to beat said food all over the cage to insure that said food was in fact completely dead and not only dead but tenderized to the point of possibly being mistaken for soup?

If you have then you know why he feeds in a small, plastic, easily cleaned container.

If you haven't, now you know why he feeds in a small, plastic, easily cleaned container.

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## Enser54

In this video at 6:20 he states that the monitor is in the tub as its 8ft enclosure is being rebuilt as a 10ft enclosure (tubs=temporary):

YouTube - BHB Visit - April 2008 - Part 3

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## Denial

if it was for easy cleaning I dont understand why he would of put down substrate. Had he not done that cleaning would of been even easier

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## AaronP

Aaron here, your local Expert on Everything that is nothing.

I personally believe a lot of people are preaching their opinions as fact, or they are arguing about nothing.

If you disagree with the way he takes care of his animals then don't support him.  At the end of the day all this moaning and groaning is about 10-20KB of data in a Database that has no physical presence.   In short, it means nothing.

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_blackcrystal22_ (05-13-2009)

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## dr del

Hi,

I always wondered that about giants.

How much substrate do they need to absorb enough of the waste products that it no longer means they are sitting in their own effluent?

I know it only soaks it up rather than them sitting in liquid but is there a bare minimum you would need to use to avoid problems to the animal in the times between pooping or peeing it and the owner noticing and cleaning it out?

I know with my ball pythons a couple of sheets of newspaper seems to be enough that they always have a dry spot if it's an overnight poop frenzy but with a huuge burm or retic wouldn't that just disintegrate and float away?


dr del

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## Denial

In my racks I lay two sheets of newspaper down. In the visions I have to use to whole sections of newspaper for each cage. But I usually check on my snakes every morning and everynight and if I see someone with a dirty cage I go ahead and clean it up because I think its easier to clean when its fresh and wet then after it dries and you have to get in the cage and scrap it out and everything. So I try my best to clean it as soon as they go or as soon as I catch it but that doesnt always work they like to go while im at work. lol

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## DutchHerp

I've read through this thread, and it's getting a little old...

The thing is, I think most of us have agreed the tubs are a little bit too small for the snakes... however, how long has he had these giants for?  Why did he not get a larger cage for them, well, a decade ago?  Why not sooner, if he knows the cages are too small?

And those of you saying we're "backstabbing" Brian just don't know what you're talking about.

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_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

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## wolfy-hound

You'd put substrate down in a feeding tub for a monitor.  If you've ever fed one, then you'd understand why.  The mess would be everywhere, and smearing on the lizard itself majorly without the substrate to help "contain" it.
I've never ever fed a monitor in a bare plastic tub after the first debacle.  I always put some shavings in it when I used a seperate container.  Now I feed in the enclosure.  Some advocate feeding in a seperate enclosure, and I won't say either way is wrong.  Whatever works for that keeper and lizard(s).
The giants in tubs? I think they are probably fine, although I'd probably want a bit larger ones.  But I don't have Brian's many years of experaince.  The giants do grow, and I'm sure that at some point he turned around and went "Oh poops, we have to get bigger bins for some of these guys".  Maybe he's got a lot in larger bins, or in different caging.  Maybe the ones you see in the video are the last giants in smaller bins.  You'd need to GO SEE IN PERSON.
I've known a few folks with retics.  And none of them seemed all that much more active, comparitively speaking.  Yeah, maybe a little, but nothing that would make me think they needed a paddock or a track to roam around on.
And yep, I've seen my racks at 2am in the dark, and nope, most of the balls were hanging out like always.  I've put them into bigger bins, and they weren't content-acting, and roamed pushing the edges, refused to eat, and such.  Back into smaller standard bins, and they settled to hanging out in a corner, eating every week, and not striking when the bin is opened, etc.  
So IMHO, my ball pythons are content to be in the bins.  The cornsnake wants to roam the world however.  Actually, I think the cornsnake wants to RULE the world, but is distracted by every meal.  She's got a etch-a-sketch memory for her world domination plans, thank goodness.

AND... calling people butt-kissers just because they don't agree with you shows me you got nothing to argue with.  No one's opinion is better than anyone else's in this case.

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## Denial

Actually ive always just feed monitor and snakes in there cages. I dont see a reason to move them to a feeding tub.

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## RichsBallPythons



----------


## akaangela

I should keep my mouth shut but I have to ask all of you a question.  If you have ever had a snake excape, where do they go?  Do they hang out in the middle of the room or do you see them stretching out on the bed??  I don't know about you but I have had a few Iexcapes and 80.5% of the time they are in the tightest places they can fit into.  The only time I had an exception to this was when our taiwan got out and he was high up on the rack trying to get into the rat cage.

If you doubt this let your snake out (in a secured area).  put a tight hide on one side and a "comfortable long bed" in the other,  where is your snake going to go?  I HONESTLY don't know what a big snake will do, but I DO know every ball I have had chooses the tight corner even over a larger space that is warmer.

LOL ok you can bash me.  I agree my limited experence is showing.

----------


## DutchHerp

> I should keep my mouth shut but I have to ask all of you a question.  If you have ever had a snake excape, where do they go?  Do they hang out in the middle of the room or do you see them stretching out on the bed??  I don't know about you but I have had a few Iexcapes and 80.5% of the time they are in the tightest places they can fit into.  The only time I had an exception to this was when our taiwan got out and he was high up on the rack trying to get into the rat cage.
> 
> If you doubt this let your snake out (in a secured area).  put a tight hide on one side and a "comfortable long bed" in the other,  where is your snake going to go?  I HONESTLY don't know what a big snake will do, but I DO know *every ball* I have had chooses the tight corner even over a larger space that is warmer.
> 
> LOL ok you can bash me.  I agree my limited experence is showing.


You said it yourself... giants are not ball pythons.

----------


## zackw419

> There's the rub.
> 
> Who's IMO is more valid? Is anyone's? If so, why? From there rules, guidleines, standards, all evolve.


It seems like your being a bit too abstract.

All the studies that have been done (those studies being interpreted into caresheets, lectures, books, etc.) set a foundation for how snakes should be taken care of in captivity. Whether or not its right that's what most snake owners seem go off of. I think your making it more difficult than it actually is.

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## AjBalls

> Have you ever watched a monitor eviscerate its food and then proceed to beat said food all over the cage to insure that said food was in fact completely dead and not only dead but tenderized to the point of possibly being mistaken for soup?
> 
> If you have then you know why he feeds in a small, plastic, easily cleaned container.
> 
> If you haven't, now you know why he feeds in a small, plastic, easily cleaned container.


Yes I have seen numerous monitors eat. And I don't think what you're talking about is an acceptable reason. He seems to keep his animals very clean. But would move it into another cage to feed? Then why wouldn't he take it for walks so it doesn't crap in its cage as well. 

And that still does not justify why you would move a 6' Nile into a 5 1/2' cage for feeding. That would be like moving a 16' retic into a 3' x 2' cage for feeding. A 6' Nile is dangerous enough. A hungry 6' Nile that you have to move is just asking for trouble.

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CeraDigital (05-14-2009)

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## AjBalls

> In this video at 6:20 he states that the monitor is in the tub as its 8ft enclosure is being rebuilt as a 10ft enclosure (tubs=temporary):
> 
> YouTube - BHB Visit - April 2008 - Part 3


After listening it sounds like he says "we use to have an 8' cage but we trashed it". So basically that monitor was being housed in there for a period of time while they were building a new cage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Good for building a bigger cage for it. Not the greatest choice for a temporary cage though. 

Thanks for clearing up one of my questions though.

----------

CeraDigital (05-14-2009),_DutchHerp_ (05-14-2009)

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## CeraDigital

I could care less about whatever match anyone has on who's e-pene is bigger than whos. I had just finished watching the videos... 

The AfRock being too big for its enclosure? No. It's just right. It might outgrow it within the next few months, or several months... but its not too small at the moment. AfRocks are one of the largest opportunists among the giant pythons, and rely highly on the ambush technique for sustenance. The only time they're widely active in their natural range is during breeding season, and shortly before.

----------


## CeraDigital

> I have all the respect in the world for Brian, but I don't see the need to put a 6' Nile monitor in a 5'6" tub for feeding purposes. Especially when it is recommended that monitors have a cage twice their length. I wouldn't want to move a possibly still hungry 6' Nile that could rip your finger off, I don't even like messing with Niles half that size. Or upset the monitors stomach and have it regurgitate.


Agreed, whole-heartedly. Moving any large reptile into another enclosure for feeding is pure ignorance, no matter how skilled or knowledgeable you are. Feeding response, possible damage to the animals internal organs, possible damage or death from said effects to both keeper and kept just play too high. It's like the old method people used to feed Burms...move them to your tub, thump the rat on the head, toss in said rat, and then move animal still in feeding mode back to enclosure. It's simply asking for trouble, or a nice hospital visit. Not only can monitors do a serious amount of damage with their claws, but their teeth and jaws are made for tearing, breaking, and crushing, vs a simple grasp and hold.

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_AjBalls_ (05-14-2009),_DutchHerp_ (05-14-2009)

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## waltah!

> Agreed, whole-heartedly. Moving any large reptile into another enclosure for feeding is pure ignorance, no matter how skilled or knowledgeable you are. Feeding response, possible damage to the animals internal organs, possible damage or death from said effects to both keeper and kept just play too high. It's like the old method people used to feed Burms...move them to your tub, thump the rat on the head, toss in said rat, and then move animal still in feeding mode back to enclosure. It's simply asking for trouble, or a nice hospital visit. Not only can monitors do a serious amount of damage with their claws, but their teeth and jaws are made for tearing, breaking, and crushing, vs a simple grasp and hold.


The difference between being there and me doing it at my house is that they can have 3 or 4 people moving the animal. I'm sure they could manage to carry a 6' monitor without incident. I'm no expert, i'm just sayin.

----------


## wolfy-hound

There's a LOT of very experianced keepers out there who DO advocate feeding in a seperate enclosure.  Just because YOU don't(and I don't either) doesn't make it wrong.  It makes it "not your opinion".

Your way is no more right, just because you state it a few times.  If he gets good results by feeding his monitors in a seperate container, or by feeding his giants in a seperate container, that it works for him(and for all the other respected keepers who do so).  He's not telling you that YOU have to feed in another container, so why do you feel you can say he CAN'T?

I've done both, and I can see the merit in both.

----------

_771subliminal_ (05-14-2009),_frankykeno_ (05-14-2009)

----------


## mumps

> There's a LOT of very experianced keepers out there who DO advocate feeding in a seperate enclosure.  Just because YOU don't(and I don't either) doesn't make it wrong.  It makes it "not your opinion".
> 
> Your way is no more right, just because you state it a few times.  If he gets good results by feeding his monitors in a seperate container, or by feeding his giants in a seperate container, that it works for him(and for all the other respected keepers who do so).  He's not telling you that YOU have to feed in another container, so why do you feel you can say he CAN'T?
> 
> I've done both, and I can see the merit in both.


I feed some animals in the enclosure, and others out.  I take my tegus out because the male is really old and the female would just rob the food out of his mouth.
I feed my yellow anaconda out because I like the interaction, and she knows when there's no more food coming.
I feed my ornate monitor in because I'm still in the taming process and he DOES NOT like being picked up yet.  

Either method can work, it's up to the individual keeper and being able to read one's animals.

Chris

----------


## AjBalls

> There's a LOT of very experianced keepers out there who DO advocate feeding in a seperate enclosure.  Just because YOU don't(and I don't either) doesn't make it wrong.  It makes it "not your opinion".
> 
> Your way is no more right, just because you state it a few times.  If he gets good results by feeding his monitors in a seperate container, or by feeding his giants in a seperate container, that it works for him(and for all the other respected keepers who do so).  He's not telling you that YOU have to feed in another container, so why do you feel you can say he CAN'T?
> 
> I've done both, and I can see the merit in both.


Of all the care sheets and posts I have seen from various forums while I use to read up on monitors, I can honestly say I have never seen one single person suggest moving a dangerous 6' Nile to a different enclosure for feeding. 

May I ask who these experienced keepers are?

----------


## Denial

I think he was referring to snake keepers. But I am with you. You could go to ANY varanid forum out there and any experienced keepers on there that have had monitors will tell you its crazy to move one. Monitors stress alot easier then snakes do. We kept a salvator here about 2 years ago and if you walked by its cage it would regurge its food. You wouldnt have to touch it or look at it or anything just your presence stressed it out.

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_DutchHerp_ (05-14-2009)

----------


## Nate

> Of all the care sheets and posts I have seen from various forums while I use to read up on monitors, I can honestly say I have never seen one single person suggest moving a dangerous 6' Nile to a different enclosure for feeding. 
> 
> May I ask who these experienced keepers are?


BHB

But what the hell do they know.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------

_771subliminal_ (05-14-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009)

----------


## 2kdime



----------

_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

----------


## AjBalls

> BHB
> 
> But what the hell do they know.


When did he state this? I would like to know.

----------


## wilomn

> Of all the care sheets and posts I have seen from various forums while I use to read up on monitors, I can honestly say I have never seen one single person suggest moving a dangerous 6' Nile to a different enclosure for feeding. 
> 
> May I ask who these experienced keepers are?


How many people have written care sheets who have actual experience with a "dangerous" 6' nile?

----------


## AjBalls

> How many people have written care sheets who have actual experience with a "dangerous" 6' nile?


Off the top of my head I can think of two that are pretty good. Seen a couple that weren't so great. And some that look like a two year old was fooling around. But even so, none EVER mentioned moving to a separate enclosure for feeding.

Any need to put quotes around dangerous? You don't think they are?

----------


## Nate

> When did he state this? I would like to know.


He doesn't have to say it...noone does, and noone will suggest you do it. It's choice.

I'm not going to SUGGEST that someone go jump off a bridge because they'll come back to me and say "you owe me thousands of dollars in medical bills for suggesting I do such a thing! how dare you!"

If I want to jump off a bridge, then stay outa my business. I know it's risky and stupid, but what I do to me is on _me_.

----------


## wilomn

> Off the top of my head I can think of two that are pretty good. Seen a couple that weren't so great. And some that look like a two year old was fooling around. But even so, none EVER mentioned moving to a separate enclosure for feeding.
> 
> Any need to put quotes around dangerous? You don't think they are?


So....2 that are "pretty" good. Not really good, not great, just pretty good which implies that they aren't as good as they could or should be.

I do not think a 6 foot nile is dangerous to someone who knows monitors.

Of course, we may have slightly differing opinions on what dangerous actually means.

You seem pretty set on what you've learned is not only the only way but anyone else is just wrong.

Have fun with that.

----------


## AjBalls

Well I think he would have to state it. After seeing the water bowl in the cage I wondered if that cage was really for feeding purposes or not. Well as I found out by the other members video, it was not just for feeding purposes but a temporary home.

I wonder the same with the Savannah monitor(s) it showed in the same episode. Whether those tubs are used strictly for feeding or if they are used as their permanent/temporary homes. Now I'm not going to try to assume that out of my respect for Brian, but I can't help but think otherwise.

----------


## AjBalls

> So....2 that are "pretty" good. Not really good, not great, just pretty good which implies that they aren't as good as they could or should be.
> 
> I do not think a 6 foot nile is dangerous to someone who knows monitors.
> 
> Of course, we may have slightly differing opinions on what dangerous actually means.
> 
> You seem pretty set on what you've learned is not only the only way but anyone else is just wrong.
> 
> Have fun with that.


Well I would like to know your opinion on the word dangerous. Being able to rip a finger off isn't dangerous at all? When is an animal deemed "dangerous" to you?

Oh no, I am perfectly capable of admitting when I am wrong.  :Smile:

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_DutchHerp_ (05-14-2009)

----------


## mumps

> Well I would like to know your opinion on the word dangerous. Being able to rip a finger off isn't dangerous at all? When is an animal deemed "dangerous" to you?
> 
> Oh no, I am perfectly capable of admitting when I am wrong.


"Being able to" and actually doing are two very different things.

I had a Nile I raised from a hatchling to a 16 year old calm, trusting animal.  I didn't move it to another enclosure for feeding, but I could open the door, let it roam the basement and feed it by hand.  Sure, he was "able to" remove a finger if he wanted to, but he never did.

Chris

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## Denial

Aj does have a point. I mean he has proof on the videos. Brian has said in one it was a feeding enclosure but in another a temporary home so which is it? How long does it take to construct a 10 foot cage? That nile can barely raise its head in that tub. That my friend is just WRONG. I would let the lizard free roam before I stuffed it in a tub like that. Monitors are not snakes they are VERY active and should never be housed in something like that I dont care if its temporary or not. You could take 30 minutes out of your day and throw some wood together for an 8 foot "temporary enclsosure" where the lizard can at least raise its head up. Niles need a basking area of 120 degrees how is that possible in a commerical rack system? There is no commerical rack system or commerical cage anywhere that is fit for a full grown water,nile, blackthroat, croc any of them. You can easily go to a monitor forum and see some people that truely care about there monitors and see how much space they provide to them. I have a buddy on another forum that has turned his basement into 3 HUGE enclosures. Filled with dirt any everything his niles can swim, bask, and dig just like they were meant to do. They also dont have a problem rasing there heads up

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_DutchHerp_ (05-14-2009),_scutechute_ (05-19-2009),_zackw419_ (05-14-2009)

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## mumps

I know the guy you're talking about.  And his enclosures are PERFECT.

Chris

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## wilomn

I know what let's do, let's go burn down Brians business. Maybe we could crucify him too, that would be cool huh? I mean, it's not like the guy has what, FOUR or FIVE thousand snakes to take care of. It's not like he's got any employees to oversee. He could surely take time to go get some 2 X 4s and plywood to build a box big enough to let that nile raise its head, even if it wasnt' heated properly and didn't have a pool, or a screen top, or any lighting, but hey, he could lift his head and that's what's important.

Maybe we could beat up his helpers for letting that monitor be put in that tub to begin with. Yeah, it was probably them what done it anyway, don't you think? And we, LOL, shouldn't let THEM get away with that. It's just not right.

So what if a state of the art enclosure with a pool and a 130 degree basking spot and substrate deep enough to burrow in and space enough for a small herd of Niles to live in is being built while that poor poor lizard suffers in agony, not able to lift his head like that. Who cares? The new cage should have been built FIRST. How dare Brian think only of himself and what's easiest for him. 

We should probably pelt him most thoroughly with rotted fruit before we crucify him. I mean, certain things should just be kept secret. You just don't go showing things that aren't perfect, it's just not cool. Why, if he had only given some thought to the relative intelligence of some folks I bet he never would have been honest enough to show a temporary set up for a lizard that HAD OUTGROWN (read as had since it WAS small enough for the previous enclosure) it's old home. What a buffoon Brian is.

In fact, we should probably boycott BHB entirely. I mean, that is the only way to truly show the disdain and contempt I've seen expressed here. Yup, that's what should be done. Rotten fruit, crucifixion, boycott. That'll show him.

Oh wait, we could burn his place down too. I'll bring marshmallows and some of you bring graham crackers and chocolate. We can make sommores, won't that be fun. We can eat them by the light of the fire while we let Brian know what he did was just too wrong to tolerate.

How DARE he make improvements without having a better plan than just doing them. 

Why, I'm just flabbergasted.

Now, where is that lighter fluid.....

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009),rabernet (05-14-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-14-2009)

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## Denial

this is awesome Its been a while since Ive seen someone get crucified. Lets make some smores to!!!!

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## AjBalls

> "Being able to" and actually doing are two very different things.
> 
> I had a Nile I raised from a hatchling to a 16 year old calm, trusting animal.  I didn't move it to another enclosure for feeding, but I could open the door, let it roam the basement and feed it by hand.  Sure, he was "able to" remove a finger if he wanted to, but he never did.
> 
> Chris


True enough. But when it comes down to it, they're wild animals. With their keen sense of smell they could pick up a rodent from anywhere and just snap. A buddy of mine has a 5' blue Nile, F'N gorgeous BTW, and it went into a feeding frenzy as soon as he walked in with rodents.

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## Denial

I saw a blue nile at the last reptile show here and I have to agree they are gorgeous

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## AjBalls

> I know what let's do, let's go burn down Brians business. Maybe we could crucify him too, that would be cool huh? I mean, it's not like the guy has what, FOUR or FIVE thousand snakes to take care of. It's not like he's got any employees to oversee. He could surely take time to go get some 2 X 4s and plywood to build a box big enough to let that nile raise its head, even if it wasnt' heated properly and didn't have a pool, or a screen top, or any lighting, but hey, he could lift his head and that's what's important.
> 
> Maybe we could beat up his helpers for letting that monitor be put in that tub to begin with. Yeah, it was probably them what done it anyway, don't you think? And we, LOL, shouldn't let THEM get away with that. It's just not right.
> 
> So what if a state of the art enclosure with a pool and a 130 degree basking spot and substrate deep enough to burrow in and space enough for a small herd of Niles to live in is being built while that poor poor lizard suffers in agony, not able to lift his head like that. Who cares? The new cage should have been built FIRST. How dare Brian think only of himself and what's easiest for him. 
> 
> We should probably pelt him most thoroughly with rotted fruit before we crucify him. I mean, certain things should just be kept secret. You just don't go showing things that aren't perfect, it's just not cool. Why, if he had only given some thought to the relative intelligence of some folks I bet he never would have been honest enough to show a temporary set up for a lizard that HAD OUTGROWN (read as had since it WAS small enough for the previous enclosure) it's old home. What a buffoon Brian is.
> 
> In fact, we should probably boycott BHB entirely. I mean, that is the only way to truly show the disdain and contempt I've seen expressed here. Yup, that's what should be done. Rotten fruit, crucifixion, boycott. That'll show him.
> ...


Now you're getting the picture :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Denial

I know right god forbid his business actually burn down and someone crucify brian  becuase they wouldnt have to look hard for a prime suspect

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## mumps

> True enough. But when it comes down to it, they're wild animals. With their keen sense of smell they could pick up a rodent from anywhere and just snap. A buddy of mine has a 5' blue Nile, F'N gorgeous BTW, and it went into a feeding frenzy as soon as he walked in with rodents.


Usually they know when feeding time is, whether they smell rodents or not, if it's done the same time everyday.  I am currently raising an Ornate, captive bred, and it gets fed everyday between 6 and 6:30 pm.  You better believe he knows what's coming...

And you know what I do when he's done swallowing his last mouse? Yup, I introduce my hand and after he licks it, I start petting him on the back.  He's only a little fellow yet, 9 months and about 3 feet, but he's learned the difference between me and dinner.  That's the first thing you teach monitors.

Chris

ps - And no, no bites yet...

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## AjBalls

Good hearing you have success in calming their temperament. Most people hear Niles are nasty lizards and that's how they treat them. Basically a show lizard for them that they ignore and only open the cage to feed and clean.

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## wolfy-hound

I've been told by a lot of tegu owner/breeders that you should move a tegu or monitor to a feeding bin, so that they don't start expecting to grab food every time you open the cage.  I've done that, and left them in.  I leave mine in now, because I don't have issues with it, but I did see increased aggression to hands coming into the cage, when I was dropping food into the cage, instead of moving them.

As far as dangerous because of potential injury, all dogs over medium size can bite off a finger too.  Anyone keeping large monitors should be experianced enough to work around them.  I move my large monitors before and after feeding, as well as no where near feeding time, and haven't considered it to be "highly dangerous".  I'm respectful of them, and keep my attention on what I'm doing.  I prefer to keep them calmer by opening the cage up several times without feeding, so they get "bored" with the idea that the door will open.

Again, just because YOU don't do it that way, doesn't mean that no one else should.  I'm not going to name a bunch of names for you.  Anyone searching the net about keeping tegus or monitors should come across the debate of cage feeding or seperate bin feeding.  Just because you haven't read it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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## Buttons

> this is awesome Its been a while since Ive seen someone get crucified. Lets make some smores to!!!!


mmmm smores

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## MarkS

> I know what let's do, let's go burn down Brians business. Maybe we could crucify him too, that would be cool huh? I mean, it's not like the guy has what, FOUR or FIVE thousand snakes to take care of. It's not like he's got any employees to oversee. He could surely take time to go get some 2 X 4s and plywood to build a box big enough to let that nile raise its head, even if it wasnt' heated properly and didn't have a pool, or a screen top, or any lighting, but hey, he could lift his head and that's what's important.
> 
> Maybe we could beat up his helpers for letting that monitor be put in that tub to begin with. Yeah, it was probably them what done it anyway, don't you think? And we, LOL, shouldn't let THEM get away with that. It's just not right.
> 
> So what if a state of the art enclosure with a pool and a 130 degree basking spot and substrate deep enough to burrow in and space enough for a small herd of Niles to live in is being built while that poor poor lizard suffers in agony, not able to lift his head like that. Who cares? The new cage should have been built FIRST. How dare Brian think only of himself and what's easiest for him. 
> 
> We should probably pelt him most thoroughly with rotted fruit before we crucify him. I mean, certain things should just be kept secret. You just don't go showing things that aren't perfect, it's just not cool. Why, if he had only given some thought to the relative intelligence of some folks I bet he never would have been honest enough to show a temporary set up for a lizard that HAD OUTGROWN (read as had since it WAS small enough for the previous enclosure) it's old home. What a buffoon Brian is.
> 
> In fact, we should probably boycott BHB entirely. I mean, that is the only way to truly show the disdain and contempt I've seen expressed here. Yup, that's what should be done. Rotten fruit, crucifixion, boycott. That'll show him.
> ...


Wes, you can truly turn sarcasm into an art form. And for that, I salute you...  :Salute:  :Salute:  :Salute:

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_stratus_020202_ (05-14-2009)

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## Nate

Sometimes, I like will read Wes' posts as if Stewie from Family Guy is narrating.... it makes it pretty funny  :Very Happy:

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## littleindiangirl

> Sometimes, I like will read Wes' posts as if Stewie from Family Guy is narrating.... it makes it pretty funny


 :ROFL: !!! I'm going to do that from now on.  :Very Happy:

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## burnziesballs8

Leave the guy (BRIAN) alone he spends a crap load of his own money to produce a show to promote all you smaller breeders, maybe if he didn't do the show he could buy 20 foot cages, then you guys would find another thing to complain about and he would be just as successful selling snakes with everyone who knows how great his animals are cared for, but the smaller breeders wouldn't have as much business. Their are always ppl complaining for the reason to hear their own voice, think they are special. keep up the great breeding, snakes aren't like ppl, like the _dude_ way before said about being in the closet wanting to breed the naked girl, if they aren't happy they aren't breeding. We all know that isn't the case over at bhb, every year he comes out with crazier and crazier morphs, but more importantly his percentages of breeding are very good that means healthy AND happy.

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## DutchHerp

One thing that really bothers me is that some of you have the attitude that it's someone's own choice and they can do what they want with their animals.  Honestly, I couldn't care less if one of you jumped off a bridge and was in the hospital for months.  However, if you're a Nile Monitor keeper, you MUST fulfill its requirements.  After all, you're taking this animal to take of it, and having it in a 5.5ft tub is not fulfilling its requirements.

Brian goes to many reptile shows.  To make a profit, no?  How about one day he doesn't go and he prepares a perfectly sized monitor cage... with actual heat and size requirements.  Go to home depot and build a nice big cage.  

Again, as a keeper, you are responsible for taking good care of an animal.  In the end it's "your choice" with what you want to do with an animal, but if you decide to keep an animal, you MUST TAKE CARE OF IT PROPERLY.

Say what you like, but you can't put a 6ft Nile Monitor in a 5.5ft tub in a snake rack with snake requirements.

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_mumps_ (05-15-2009),_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

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## Denial

haha im a creep. Thats the same thing my mother always said to me! 

Dutch I wouldnt worry to much on this anymore. We have our views and otheres have there. I just feel sorry for the nile.

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## DutchHerp

> haha im a creep. Thats the same thing my mother always said to me! 
> 
> Dutch I wouldnt worry to much on this anymore. *We have our views and otheres have there. I just feel sorry for the nile.*


Unfortunately.

I just don't get why these people don't realize that you can't keep a 6ft nile in a tub?  Even a 10x3 is waaaay too small (in my opinion, for you "it's your opinion" people).

Just because it's Brian, doesn't mean he's an expert.  He certainly isn't keeping that Nile like one, that's for sure.

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_mumps_ (05-15-2009),_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

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## wilomn

> Unfortunately.
> 
> I just don't get why these people don't realize that you can't keep a 6ft nile in a tub?  Even a 10x3 is waaaay too small (in my opinion, for you "it's your opinion" people).
> 
> Just because it's Brian, doesn't mean he's an expert.  He certainly isn't keeping that Nile like one, that's for sure.


Tell me again, if you would be so kind, how many niles do you have and for how long have you been keeping them?

Kid, real life and book learin' aren't often the same.

Have you, YOU, talked to Brian or are you just reacting to suppositions?

Because, you see, if you have no facts to go on, if you don't know why or how long that tub held that lizard, you're no better than the little pooflinger imitating the larger but equally ignorant pooflingers who screech and scream so well but run hand hide, she and demure when the object of their fecal flinging spree, heretofore in absentia, shows up.

So little chimp, you just a flinger or have you actually done any talking to the big chimps?

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009),_waltah!_ (05-14-2009)

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## DutchHerp

> Tell me again, if you would be so kind, how many niles do you have and for how long have you been keeping them?
> 
> Kid, real life and book learin' aren't often the same.
> 
> Have you, YOU, talked to Brian or are you just reacting to suppositions?
> 
> Because, you see, if you have no facts to go on, if you don't know why or how long that tub held that lizard, you're no better than the little pooflinger imitating the larger but equally ignorant pooflingers who screech and scream so well but run hand hide, she and demure when the object of their fecal flinging spree, heretofore in absentia, shows up.
> 
> So little chimp, you just a flinger or have you actually done any talking to the big chimps?


I have never kept a single lizard in my life.

Does that mean I don't know anything about their care?  Yeapers.

Does that mean I don't have common sense? No sir.

Wes, it doesn't take an expert to see that a Nile Monitor cannot be kept in a 5.5ft tub.  I'm not commenting on breeding these lizards, what temperatures to keep them at, what lights to give them, what substrate, or water needs to provide them with.

I can, however, tell you that a 6ft Nile Monitor cannot be kept in a goshdarn tub.  How can a lizard that size honestly be kept in a tub like that?!  I just don't get why you have to be an expert to see this.  Honestly baffled to hear someone tell me I'm baby chimpanzee preaching what the bigger chimpanzees have said when any nutjob can see that a monitor cannot be kept in complete darkness.

Again, he may not be in there for long.  But he's in there for too long.  You can get a perfect cage in a week.

If Brian keeps so many animals, he has to take care of them.  If he can't take care of the animals he's got properly, he needs to step back and assess the situation.

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_mumps_ (05-15-2009),_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

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## aSnakeLovinBabe

Okay... I am not going to say ANYTHING except what I personally feel about keeping my own snakes. I have a rack system. I hate it, I feel like it's a prison cell. My other enclosures are 38 large open enclosures, which I feel my snakes are MUCH more content in. But then again, I keep mostly garter snakes who will not thrive in a rack system quite like ball pythons will.They will tolerate it, but I can tell they hate it and will cruise around in a circle in a tub all day. I use my rack system mostly for baby snakes, feeding shy eaters, gravid females, my ball pythons (whom I must say do exceedingly well in this setup) and really high strung snakes who need their absolute privacy. I have to keep it around, because of the high volume of baby snakes I end up with from my garters. But if I get the chance, I will replace it. I like to give my snakes space, with a choice of hides, water bowl large enough to go for a little swim, lots of plant and climby things, not to mention the option to expierience a temperature gradient, and overhead lighting, even if it's not the heat source. I don't feel that I have the right to keep a giant snake until I have built an enclosure large enough for that snake to do as it pleases. Many say that the giant snakes don't want to move around, but I have seen videos of wild adult retics, and they seem quite agile and active for such large snakes. Somehow I don't see a snake like that laying around like a total space out zombie for months on end. They are not going to move around in captivity if they are not given the option. A snake stuffed into a small dark container where it can't really move around much, or do really anything except wrap around it's water bowl and eat, in my opinion does not get to live it's life to the fullest. Even if it lives for a long time, what is the point of keeping my snakes, if I can't see and observe them? If It ever gets to the point where I can't personally interact and observe all of my snakes on a daily basis, then I'll know I have too many and will cut back. 

The number one thing I absolutely hate is when people say that there is a such thing as too large of an enclosure for a snake. There is a such thing, only if all of the space is not harnessed and used right. But if you use it right, there's no such thing as too large a cage. Remember, no matter how big it is, it's still a CAGE. In the wild, the WORLD is their enclosure. If you put a baby snake in a 75 gallon tank, with a few hides and a water bowl it will probably stress out majorly from being in too open of a space. But if you fill it with tons of places to go, climb, hide, and explore, multiple water dishes and such, and are able to regularly supply him with food, why not? Sure, it's not convenient for us, and it's not an easy thing to keep up with, but that doesn't mean it isn't doable.

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_Denial_ (05-15-2009),_DutchHerp_ (05-14-2009),_mumps_ (05-15-2009),_zackw419_ (05-14-2009)

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## zackw419

> Tell me again, if you would be so kind, how many niles do you have and for how long have you been keeping them?
> 
> Kid, real life and book learin' aren't often the same.
> 
> Have you, YOU, talked to Brian or are you just reacting to suppositions?
> 
> Because, you see, if you have no facts to go on, if you don't know why or how long that tub held that lizard, you're no better than the little pooflinger imitating the larger but equally ignorant pooflingers who screech and scream so well but run hand hide, she and demure when the object of their fecal flinging spree, heretofore in absentia, shows up.
> 
> So little chimp, you just a flinger or have you actually done any talking to the big chimps?


Being an expert doesn't mean your doing everything right. I know reputation seems to be a big thing with you but lets be real, ASIDE from who has more rep points or who has their own TV show or who is younger than who else. Tell me, honestly does it make sense to you for a large, adult Nile monitor to be kept in a tub that size? I want a yes or no. Not some long _da-da-da_ philosophy that slowly works its way off-topic.

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_DutchHerp_ (05-14-2009),_mumps_ (05-15-2009)

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## daniel1983

This has been a rather interesting post to read. All bickering aside....

The size of an enclosure is all about perspective and goals. What sort of behaviors will the enclosure need to allow? What goals does the keeper have with the animal?

I have seen videos of retics climbing 30'+ trees in a matter of seconds to chase after monkeys. I have also read articles describing pythons to be stationary for extended periods of time. So what behaviors do I need to let them experience in captivity? Does a retic need to climb trees to chase after prey to remain healthy? If they sit in ambush for months at a time, it is ok to let them sit in small spaces in captivity?

I have articles saying monitors can roam over a territory of over a kilometer in a day's time. I have watched green anoles cross my fenceline and down my neighbor's...that is over a 400' territory. I have seen 2' rough green snakes get from the ground to 15' up in a bush in the blink of an eye. Are the enclosures we provide adequate enough?

ALL KEEPERS provide inadequate condition with respect to natural conditions. I have yet to see an enclosure that allows ALL natural behaviors and opportunities. 

I love to hear people talk about arboreal enclosure. "Check out this arboreal enclosure I built. Ya, it is 7 feet tall". Actual arboreal snakes can migrate from ground level to the tree tops. And 7 feet is providing enough vertical space? Does a snake know the difference between 3 ft. and 7 ft.? Can they tell the difference between 7 ft. and 30 ft.? Who knows.

WE keep CAPTIVE animals. What the animal "wants" is insignificant. The conditions that the animal needs to stay alive is the minimum. 

The life processes that THE KEEPER WANTS to see is what matters in choice of enclosure. 

If THE KEEPER'S interest is breeding, the keeper needs an enclosure that allows successful breeding. 

If THE KEEPER'S interest is observation of natural behaviors, the enclosure needs to be built to allow some natural behaviors.

Enclosures suit THE KEEPER'S goals. 

If the enclosure does not support life. The enclosure is a failure.

If the enclosure does not allow the life event that the keeper desires...THAT ENCLOSURE IS INADEQUATE.

We will never agree on the 'rights and wrongs' of keeping reptiles. We all have different goals and perspectives.

That is what makes the reptile community so interesting.

----------

_771subliminal_ (05-15-2009),_cinderbird_ (05-16-2009),_Denial_ (05-15-2009),dr del (05-15-2009),JLC (05-15-2009),_Kara_ (05-21-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (05-15-2009),Mettle (05-20-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009),rabernet (05-15-2009),Salem Purrs (05-23-2009),_Spaniard_ (05-15-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-15-2009),_Wh00h0069_ (05-15-2009)

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## DutchHerp

While I agree with most of your stuff, Daniel, there is a bare minimum that this thread is addressing.  Of course, if a breeder is interested in breeding only, the animal can be kept in the minimum adequate space.

However, I think most if not all expert (yes, I went there, Wes) monitor and large boid keepers will agree that Brian's caging is too small.  Especially the monitor's.

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## daniel1983

> While I agree with most of your stuff, Daniel, there is a bare minimum that this thread is addressing.  Of course, if a breeder is interested in breeding only, the animal can be kept in the minimum adequate space.
> 
> However, I think most if not all expert (yes, I went there, Wes) monitor and large boid keepers will agree that Brian's caging is too small.  Especially the monitor's.


Again, what are the keeper's goals? 

Does the cage allow the goals to be met?

You are discussing MINIMUM requirements? Minimum requirements for what? What is the goal that is trying to be achieved? What life processes do you want to take place?

How is siting curled in an enclosure different than sitting curled in ambush? Does the snake know the difference? It is sitting waiting on food in both instances, then when breeding season rolls around it is trying to find a mate.

In response to the monitor caging, I could use the example that is thrown around frequently with respect to ball pythons. They spend alot of time in borrows don't they? A monitor in nature, sleeps in a borrow. Roams for food. Then returns to it's borrow. A monitor in a rack, sleeps in a rack, gets food brought to it, then sleeps in a rack. Is it all that different? The only thing I see different is level of physical activity. Does the monitor care if it is not physically active? 

Like I said. It is all about the keeper's goals. They are captive animals. Reptiles are interesting in that if a keeper provides inadequate conditions.....the animals tend to get sick and die. If a monitor is kept in a small enclosure and does not recieve proper exercise, it will die of obesity. Reptile are not like mammals that can readily fend for themselves in bad conditions. We are their sole provider.

I find these topics interesting. I support my animals in a fashion that allows me to achieve my goals with the animals. That is my way(and just about everyone elses' IMO). My goals differ from your goals, or Brians goal, or everyone elses goals. That is what provides this community with a wide range of reptile housing possibilities.

I just wanted to throw all that out there to add to the discussion  :Wink:

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## wilomn

Anybody know the meaning of the word TEMPORARY?

Has anyone even heard a rumor that Brian was using those tubs for permanent homes?

I've been chuckling all day at all the SUPPOSING some of you have been doing.

Has anyone actually talked to Brian?

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## burnziesballs8

daniel = finally smart person!! great posts..... 
 for the animals natural habitats.... we all suck, and are doing harm, we all do our best to make sure the animal is happy but we can't provide the world to them, even a dog with a 4 acre backyard fenced in.... is still fenced it.... leave brian alone, he is doing the ENTIRE reptile a huge favor by giving snakes a better name then anyone not owning snakes gives them

keep it up brian!!

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## daniel1983

> Anybody know the meaning of the word TEMPORARY?
> 
> Has anyone even heard a rumor that Brian was using those tubs for permanent homes?
> 
> I've been chuckling all day at all the SUPPOSING some of you have been doing.
> 
> Has anyone actually talked to Brian?


If the keeper's goal is to provide temporary housing, then all is well.  :Smile: 

People do alot of ASSUMING over the internet. Brian's 4-6 minute videos have been coming out for over a year now. That gives alot of ammo for peoples' speculations....and it doesn't help that you only see a small fraction of his faculity in the videos.

Like if I had shown a picture of a snake in a dirty cage, people could assume that I do not clean any of my cages. They have no idea that it was cleaning day and things were clean a few hours later. 

People are funny like that.

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## mumps

Brian has been getting slack for his monitor keeping for quite some time.  Yet I am unable to find an edition of SnakeBytes where he shows us the "actual enclosures".  Or even the makings of one.

Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are.
Tubs are ridiculous for monitors, and Wes, I have been keeping large varanids since 1990, and I know what I'm talking about.  Tubs DO make great water containers for small monitors and medium snakes.  And I have been keeping giant snakes since 1986.

You guys all belong to the same group that think reptiles are stupid, don't know their keepers, can't learn or even recognize themselves.  The same group that thought Mommy Croc was eating her young...

We haven't even scratched the surface as far as reptile behavioural studies go.  I can tell you, after 30+ years of keeping them, that they are smarter than you think and you are torturing them in those tubs without any stimulation/opportunities to be themselves.

Not that you'll listen to me, you've got your own greed to think about...

Chris

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## Spaniard

> You guys all belong to the same group that think reptiles are stupid, don't know their keepers, can't learn or even recognize themselves.  The same group that thought Mommy Croc was eating her young...
> 
> We haven't even scratched the surface as far as reptile behavioural studies go.  I can tell you, after 30+ years of keeping them, that they are smarter than you think and you are torturing them in those tubs without any stimulation/opportunities to be themselves.
> 
> Not that you'll listen to me, you've got your own greed to think about...
> 
> Chris


I'm interested, after 30 years what exactly in the way of behavior has shown you that these are smart snakes?  What exactly is torture to a snake? How have they expressed it to you?  What exactly entails a snake being itself?

If we've yet to scratch the surface of behavior studies how can you be so sure of your own conclusions?

Just curious...

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## mainbutter

> Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are


I've seen you bash tubs a few times and I just want this cleared up..

Do you believe tubs are poor containers for ALL snakes? Or just the large species you have worked with?

What exactly makes a tub worse than other housing?

It can't be the dimensions of tubs, because there certainly are tubs that perfectly match the size requirements for many different species.

It can't be temperature/humidity issues.. because if anything tubs are better for that than any other housing (I'm convinced even the expensive plastic housing out there isn't as good at maintaining temps and humidity).

So what is it you dislike so much about tubs for snakes?

P.S. FWIW I don't use tubs for any of my animals.  I just don't think they are bad for most snakes.

----------


## zackw419

> Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are.
> 
> Chris


Im going to have to strongly disagree with that statment.

Tubs are great and offer snake privacy and space as long as an adequate tub size is provided.

In this case, they don't seem to make giant tubs big enough for adult, giant pythons.

Like I said, no matter how long you have been working with snakes doesn't mean you are doing everything right.

Other than how he is keeping some of his larger snakes and monitor. I just want to say, I love what brian does for the reptile community. This thread was not meant to be an attack, just an observation.

----------


## mumps

I got into this hobby because reptiles fascinate the hell out of me.  Their patterns, colors, behaviors, mysteriousness all intrigue me to no end.

I fail to see how putting a snake (of any size or shape) into a drawer like your socks is going to be a beneficial experience for either of you.  You never get to know them, they are less likely to get to know you.  You can't observe without disturbing them - if you think pulling the drawer out doesn't disturb them, then you have a thing to learn about how receptive they are to movement - You can't even make a quick visual check before going to bed.

You think they are content in there?  Just because you can't hear them saying "Get me the .... out of here!" doesn't mean they aren't saying it.

I think a problem a lot of you suffer from is the money-issue.  If big breeders can make all that money and be successful breeding by using these tubs then they must be all that.  Just because something works doesn't mean it is good for the animals.  Chickens lay a lot of eggs cooped up 4 in a square foot of space.  Does that mean they're happy?  Gorillas in zoos used to live in a concrete room with a tire on a chain.  They lived, grew old and entertained millions of visitors.  Why the change to large natural environments where on some days visitors never even get to see them?

I guess what it boils down to is personal preferance.  I like to see, touch, interact and learn from my animals.  Nothing is cooler to me than to have something which so many fear and loathe trust you and know that you mean them no harm.  I'm talking gators, varanids and the giant snakes.  They, to me, are the best.  So maybe that's one of the reasons... am I jealous that I can't find a tub big enough for 7 foot water monitors? Or 16 foot retics?  No.  I just don't comprehend the idea of purchasing a 5 thousand dollar morph and stuffing it into a drawer and looking at it once a week...

The only tub I would agree upon would be the 8 footers Brian mentioned.  I would suppose that would be alright for a blood python.

And I am not attacking Brian.  He has a huge business and he is doing the best he can in order to make a living.  He's a mass production facility.  Not a hobbyist.  He makes lots of cool snakes that only other mass production facilities can afford.  Good for him.

Chris

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_DutchHerp_ (05-15-2009)

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## wilomn

So, from your years of interactive observance you've learned that snakes are like gorillas......

Well, I guess we could go BACK to the how is a mammalian need relevant to this thread, but we've been there and done that and frankly, since your mind is made up, I see little point in revisiting it.

I feel no need to convince you of anything.

----------


## Spaniard

Mumps you seem to make a lot of assumptions about the people here, they're motives for doing things etc.  

I don't think you answered any of my questions, for a second I thought you might actually be on to something after 30 years experience under your belt.

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## Buttons

> He makes lots of cool snakes that only other mass production facilities can afford.
> Chris


Really?  :ROFL:

----------


## mumps

> Really?


I see from your sig that you have a handful of his snakes, axanthic pins perhaps?  :ROFL: 

Chris

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## stormwulf133

> I fail to see how putting a snake (of any size or shape) into a drawer like your socks is going to be a beneficial experience for either of you.  You never get to know them, they are less likely to get to know you.  You can't observe without disturbing them - if you think pulling the drawer out doesn't disturb them, then you have a thing to learn about how receptive they are to movement - You can't even make a quick visual check before going to bed.
> 
> You think they are content in there?  Just because you can't hear them saying "Get me the .... out of here!" doesn't mean they aren't saying it.
> 
> I think a problem a lot of you suffer from is the money-issue. 
> 
> Chris


I have stayed out of this thread for too long. But you think tubs are bad. So I keep my ball pythons in tubs, where they shed, eat, poop regularly, as well as grow, thermoregulate, breed, live in correct humidity, and easy to clean environments, and that is wrong. And the person who keeps a ball python in a 75 gallon tank, where it paces endlessly, never finding an ideal spot to be comfortable, is covered in stuck sheds because humidity is incorrect, and ends up with RI because the heat isn't correct, is the one that is right? 

I am pretty sure the fact that an extremely picky species of snake, eats better, and in general thrives better in a tub, means something. 

Are tubs right for all animals? No. Are the tried and tested correct for some? Yes! 

I think the problem is, a few people suffer from a closed mind, and a holier than thou-issue.

----------

_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

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## Buttons

> I see from your sig that you have a handful of his snakes, axanthic pins perhaps? 
> 
> Chris


There are many people out there with expensive morphs from BHB who AREN'T "mass production facilities".  That is a ridiculous statement to make.

----------


## mumps

> I'm interested, after 30 years what exactly in the way of behavior has shown you that these are smart snakes?  What exactly is torture to a snake? How have they expressed it to you?  What exactly entails a snake being itself?
> 
> If we've yet to scratch the surface of behavior studies how can you be so sure of your own conclusions?
> 
> Just curious...


My last thread was trying to convey some of my thoughts, not answer your questions.  I'll give you some answers, as best I can.

Behavior = smart.  A lot of keepers believe that snakes run on instinct only and are incapable of learning.  They only know it's feeding time if they smell food, etc.

I had a burm that I raised, and every mealtime I tapped on the left hand wall outside his enclosure before opening it to offer food.  He learned this ritual and was very enthusiastically greeting me when I did the tap...

What is torture to a snake?  Giving it a home range of 2 square feet.  Just because something can survive in a certain manner doesn't mean it should.

How is a snake "being itself".  By swimming if it wants to swim.  Climbing if it wants to climb. Hiding if it wants to hide. Eating if it wants to eat. Sleeping if it wants to sleep.  Breeding if it wants to breed.  The only option tubs provide is sleeping and the occasional breeding.

As for Wes, my aren't you a clever one.  Besides the fact that you keep 5 foot snakes in 12 inch square tubs, what has made you such a leading expert in the fields of herpetoculture/herpetology?  Your ability to be articulate really seems to impress the masses here.  I was not saying snakes are like gorillas.  I was stating the progress that humans have made in understanding the real needs of animals in order for them to thrive in captivity.  As I stated earlier, when people first observed crocs moving their young to the safety of the water, it was believed that they were eating their young (maybe you're not old enough to be aware of this fact).  We now know, at least some of us, that they are actually caring parents.  Did you know afrock hatchlings stay near their mother until their first shed?  Basking and burrowing right along side her?  I'm glad you feel you have no need to convince me of anything, as I highly doubt that you could.

Chris

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_DutchHerp_ (05-15-2009)

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## mumps

> I have stayed out of this thread for too long. But you think tubs are bad. So I keep my ball pythons in tubs, where they shed, eat, poop regularly, as well as grow, thermoregulate, breed, live in correct humidity, and easy to clean environments, and that is wrong. And the person who keeps a ball python in a 75 gallon tank, where it paces endlessly, never finding an ideal spot to be comfortable, is covered in stuck sheds because humidity is incorrect, and ends up with RI because the heat isn't correct, is the one that is right? 
> 
> I am pretty sure the fact that an extremely picky species of snake, eats better, and in general thrives better in a tub, means something. 
> 
> Are tubs right for all animals? No. Are the tried and tested correct for some? Yes! 
> 
> I think the problem is, a few people suffer from a closed mind, and a holier than thou-issue.



No.  It just means that the person using the 75 gallon tank isn't doing it right.  Perhaps tubs are a "snakes for dummies" answer?  I don't know.  If you don't know how to take care of something, don't keep it.

I don't use tanks either.

Chris

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-15-2009)

----------


## stormwulf133

> No.  It just means that the person using the 75 gallon tank isn't doing it right.  Perhaps tubs are a "snakes for dummies" answer?  I don't know.  If you don't know how to take care of something, don't keep it.
> 
> I don't use tanks either.
> 
> Chris


And those of us who use tubs could say the same to those who DON'T.

----------


## dr del

Mumps,

I had the same opinions on tubs when I first joined this site - based on the same, utterly incorrect, assumptions I was making that you are now.

I will try and cover some of the points.




> I got into this hobby because reptiles fascinate the hell out of me.  Their patterns, colors, behaviors, mysteriousness all intrigue me to no end.
> 
> I fail to see how putting a snake (of any size or shape) into a drawer like your socks is going to be a beneficial experience for either of you.  You never get to know them, they are less likely to get to know you.  You can't observe without disturbing them - if you think pulling the drawer out doesn't disturb them, then you have a thing to learn about how receptive they are to movement - You can't even make a quick visual check before going to bed.


That's pretty much the same reason we are all here so please bear that in mind while reading our posts.  :Smile: 

You are making a few assumptions about tubs that simply aren't accurate - they are not all totaly opaque. And you do in fact get a brand called iris which are glass clear and very popular for that very reason.

You can see and check on them perfectly fine for most of us - or at least as easily as you can with a glass tank. The same comment about disturbing them applies to opening the lid of a tank etc.

And, since we feed and clean our tubs just as often as you do we have exactly the same chances to get to know each other as you do with yours.

We are not putting them in drawers like socks - we simply replaced glass with plastic. That is the *total* extent of the change.




> You think they are content in there?  Just because you can't hear them saying "Get me the .... out of here!" doesn't mean they aren't saying it.


And, equally, since you do not use the system and have therefore no experience of it you have not one single shred of evidence they *are* saying it.

I have used both for not only the same species but the same animals I previously kept together in a five foot by two foot square tank - and trust me they do fine seperated in a rack system.




> I think a problem a lot of you suffer from is the money-issue.  If big breeders can make all that money and be successful breeding by using these tubs then they must be all that.  Just because something works doesn't mean it is good for the animals.  Chickens lay a lot of eggs cooped up 4 in a square foot of space.  Does that mean they're happy?  Gorillas in zoos used to live in a concrete room with a tire on a chain.  They lived, grew old and entertained millions of visitors.  Why the change to large natural environments where on some days visitors never even get to see them?


You are wrong about the money issue - the difference in price between a glass tank and a tub is minimal and the rest of the equipment is still needed.

Self build isn't hard or expensive either. Store bought plastic caging isn't cheap  but people still use it.

I get that you have formed opinions based on the intelligence and mental alacrity of reptiles based on the simple pattern recognition you taught your burm - but I have news for you, people have taught similar levels of conditioning to insects. And I don't mean ants or other colony animals here.

I really see limited relevance to your chicken or gorilla analogy in relation to these animals.




> I guess what it boils down to is personal preferance.  I like to see, touch, interact and learn from my animals.  Nothing is cooler to me than to have something which so many fear and loathe trust you and know that you mean them no harm.  I'm talking gators, varanids and the giant snakes.  They, to me, are the best.  So maybe that's one of the reasons... am I jealous that I can't find a tub big enough for 7 foot water monitors? Or 16 foot retics?  No.  I just don't comprehend the idea of purchasing a 5 thousand dollar morph and stuffing it into a drawer and looking at it once a week...


Again, so do we.

And you fail to comprehend the idea because that idea is not what any of us are doing - with the possible exception of a big breeder with thousands of animals.

I see my animals almost constantly from this seat and see every single one of them at least once a day while checking for poop and pee etc.





> The only tub I would agree upon would be the 8 footers Brian mentioned.  I would suppose that would be alright for a blood python.
> 
> And I am not attacking Brian.  He has a huge business and he is doing the best he can in order to make a living.  He's a mass production facility.  Not a hobbyist.  He makes lots of cool snakes that only other mass production facilities can afford.  Good for him.
> 
> Chris


Brian is indeed a prefessional breeder - but the phrase "mass production" is, by implication, doing him a great dis-service and completely ignoring the path he went through to get to where he is today.

And I think you will find most of his customers are regular keepers like us.


dr del

----------

_Buttons_ (05-15-2009),_cinderbird_ (05-16-2009),_Denial_ (05-15-2009),_LaFilleClochette_ (05-16-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (05-15-2009),_mainbutter_ (05-16-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009),Salem Purrs (05-23-2009),_scutechute_ (05-19-2009),_Spaniard_ (05-15-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-15-2009),_waltah!_ (05-15-2009)

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## DutchHerp

I'm with Mumps on this one.  I think Ball Pythons are one of the very select species that actually benefit from being in a rack.

However, my limited experience with carpet pythons and corn snakes has led me to believe (as well as other people's experience, mind you) that they would much prefer to be in a tank.  I guess it's more of the Euro perspective... in some nations there are even laws about what the minimum enclosure requirements are.

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## littleindiangirl

Dutch, 

Beyond reason, you continue to tell us that the monitor lives in that small drawer, something Brian has explicitly said he does not do. That certainly makes you look like you're putting your foot in your mouth over and over again.

Let me know when you go see Brian's facility. I'll go with you.

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## littleindiangirl

> Mumps,
> 
> I had the same opinions on tubs when I first joined this site - based on the same, utterly incorrect, assumptions I was making that you are now.
> 
> I will try and cover some of the points.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much the same reason we are all here so please bear that in mind while reading our posts. 
> ...


Couldn't agree more!

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## DutchHerp

> Dutch, 
> 
> Beyond reason, you continue to tell us that the monitor lives in that small drawer, something Brian has explicitly said he does not do. That certainly makes you look like you're putting your foot in your mouth over and over again.
> 
> Let me know when you go see Brian's facility. I'll go with you.


Where've you been?  Someone posted something that said it was a temporary housing, not a feeding tub.

And I don't need to go to Brian's facility to see that he has at least one huge afrock in a 5.5ft tub (that of course will be upgraded, sometime in the future  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) and a Nile Monitor in a temporary housing where he can't even stretch out...

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## littleindiangirl

Where have you been? I've only ever seen *Brian* state that it is a feeding tub for the show.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## DutchHerp

> Where have you been? I've only ever seen *Brian* state that it is a feeding tub for the show.


Since you asked...




> In this video at 6:20 he states that the monitor is in the tub as its 8ft enclosure is being rebuilt as a 10ft enclosure (tubs=temporary):
> 
> YouTube - BHB Visit - April 2008 - Part 3

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_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

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## littleindiangirl

I see FrankyKeno and her Husband in the video, perhaps she would let us know a little more about the temporary set up that was OVER A YEAR AGO.

How do you even know how long the animal was kept in the tub? Was it a week? A day? A few hours? 

You have no idea how long the monitor was in the tub, so why do you continue to gripe about a temporary enclosure when you have no idea how long the animal was in it?

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## DutchHerp

I've seen several videos in which that monitor is feautured in the same type tub.  Maybe you're right, maybe the monitor was only there for a few hours.  I just find it highly unlikely, because the way Brian said it didn't make it seem like they were working at it right that moment.

And shouldn't a temporary enclosure still provide the animal with the proper requirements?

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## littleindiangirl

Which requirements are inadequate for a temporary tub?

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## DutchHerp

I'm guessing the temperatures...?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Since when are large boids housed with basking spots well over the 100s?

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## littleindiangirl

Ohhh, so you actually have no proof of the temps in there. Just more poo flinging based on speculation.

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## wolfy-hound

Tapping on the cage, then feeding, and getting a alert response from the animal is what's called "operant conditioning".  You can do it with ANY creature that you have a positive reenforcement with.  You can teach a ant, a roach, a chicken, a goldfish, or a gorilla with it.  You can teach ANYTHING including a reptile with operant conditioning.

Kudos to you.  You taught a snake to react when you tapped.  You successfully used operant conditioning to get a alert response.  How is that significant to any of the discussion? 

I use tubs, because my snakes were not happy in large open enclosures with "options".  They paced, they rubbed noses, they constantly tried to escape.  In the tubs, they hang out and feed regularly, and "seem" more relaxed, without being balled tightly constantly.

Again.. just because someone doesn't do exactly as YOU do, doesn't mean they are wrong.

Connie has a good point too.  And plus, why do people keep skipping back and forth? The one was said to be a feeding tub, one was temporary housing while the enclosure was rebuilt, and a few giants were in tubs while some larger ones were being ordered(or built?).  I don't think a nile would be happy in a 5 ft tub.  But I don't believe I ever heard Brian say that the nile stayed in the tub, and I don't belive I've seen the nile in multiple videos living in the tub.

Again.  Please remember that YOUR way is not the ONLY way.  I like tubs, but I'm not trying to force you to use tubs, are I?  You can give each individual ball python you own a freaking ROOM to hide in for all I care.  I'll personally think it's stupid, wasteful, and stressfull on the snake, and keep my opinion to myself unless you post it asking for what people think.

Now, I'd love to one day have a whole indoor room for the blackthroat monitors.  When I build a house, I intend to have a reptile specific room, and the reptile rooms will include space for racks for the ball pythons.  Not because of money, because I could easily set up in tanks cheaper.  Because I truely belive that for my snakes, the racks work better.  And I see them quite often.

  Thanks for disparaging not only my set ups, but also my level of care, and my love and appreciation of reptiles in general... all because I refuse to keep my pets exactly like you do.

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## DutchHerp

> Ohhh, so you actually have no proof of the temps in there. Just more poo flinging based on speculation.


Poo flinging... ah yes, of course.

Let's put it this way...

If Brian keeps his pythons at the "correct temperature", then it's most likely far too low for a Nile.

If Brian keeps his Nile at the "correct temperature", then he's most likely cooking his snakes.

You sounded stupid with that last statement, with all due respect.

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## littleindiangirl

And you have no idea what or how large rack systems work in a breeders building apparently. So you sound pretty stupid, if you ask me.  :Wink: 

And btw, not all of those tubs are full in that snake room. Last I was in there, there we're very few snakes. He could easily give a hot spot of 100 in one tub if he wished. He may only have a heat strip, and only on the one tub!

So continue with your baseless assumptions and poo flinging. Simply, you've never been there, you don't know how long the animal was in the tub or the conditions in the room or that one single tub. 

Yup, pretty picture you've painted of yourself.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009)

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## AaronP

This sort of resembles the "1 Hide Vs 2 or even 0" arguments people like to bring up about ball pythons...

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## Jerhart

This reminds me of a cyclical debate where the two parties just have to agree to disagree because niether is going to budge on their beliefs on where they stand...kind of like religion.  :Razz:  

...or continue the debating...because it is obviously getting somehwere...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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_Mitch21_ (06-18-2009),_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

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## stormwulf133

> And shouldn't a temporary enclosure still provide the animal with the proper requirements?


I guess when I get a reptile shipped, it must be shipped with battery operated thermostats and heat tape.  I guess when I go to a reptile show everyone should bring their entire enclosures to house the herps they are selling too. But hmmm how are they going to temporarily keep the heat going in the car they bring them in?

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_771subliminal_ (05-16-2009)

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## zackw419

I think this thread will continue to go on and on until we actually get Brian in here and get down to the facts.


I'm very curious to see what he has to say.

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## waltah!

I honestly don't think Brian should have to come here to explain himself. They are HIS animals and HIS enclosures which make it HIS business. You don't have to like it, and i'm sure the last time he checked he didn't answer to any of us. This thread will continue until everyone just gets tired of it.

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## JohnMcD

Personally, I think Brian should make a video addressing this thread (not directly, but show these new 8ft tubs and 10ft Monitor cage).

In my opinion, that would set this arguement straight.

Also, no matter whats happening at Brians facility, it likely will stay as is and this thread of massive hatred will be of absolutely no use. My point iss... can't we all *agree to disagree*. Being rude and quite frankly... ignorant is'nt getting anybody anywhere (typical, non-constructive arguement).

 :Smile:

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## aSnakeLovinBabe

Brian should not have to go out of his way to address a thread on a forum, it's not his responsibility in the least and I somehow don't think he has time to be bothered with stuff like this. I can only imagine how many rumors and threads on various forums probably cycle like this elsewhere! his animals are his business, and none of them look abused to me!

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_Bruce Whitehead_ (05-16-2009),_waltah!_ (05-15-2009)

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## zackw419

I CAN agree to disagree. I'm going to try to stay away from this thread. Its like running on a treadmill.

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_DutchHerp_ (05-16-2009)

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## AjBalls

> Brian should not have to go out of his way to address a thread on a forum, it's not his responsibility in the least and I somehow don't think he has time to be bothered with stuff like this.


Why shouldn't he? How come he shouldn't address the question? Because he's Brian Barczyk, one of the most respected people in this hobby/business? In threads with sales inquiries, if something goes wrong, everyone expects/demands the party in question to chime in and explain their side of the story. Not like he doesn't have time to take 2 minutes to address the question of where that Nile now. He posts his SnakeBytes videos on this forum and as one member said, he spends hours a day answering phone calls and emails.

----------


## wilomn

> Brian should not have to go out of his way to address a thread on a forum, it's not his responsibility in the least and I somehow don't think he has time to be bothered with stuff like this. I can only imagine how many rumors and threads on various forums probably cycle like this elsewhere! his animals are his business, and none of them look abused to me!







> Why shouldn't he? How come he shouldn't address the 
> question? Because he's Brian Barczyk, one of the most respected people in this hobby/business? In threads with sales inquiries, if something goes wrong, everyone expects/demands the party in question to chime in and explain their side of the story. Not like he doesn't have time to take 2 minutes to address the question of where that Nile now. He posts his SnakeBytes videos on this forum and as one member said, he spends hours a day answering phone calls and emails.


Who are you again? 

Do you have something that you'd like to ask Brian? If so, and it seems you know him well enough to know that he has a couple of minutes, why don't you quit your complaining and call him. Ask.

What you've got is some very inexperienced and some fairly experienced but very biased opinions based on pure speculation.

There are no facts to support allegations, HA, that Brian has treated anything in anyway that was detrimental to the animal's well being.

Kinda reminds me of a sewing circle. natter natter natter gossip gossip gossip  eeek a fact, kill it quick before it ruins our fun backstab backstab backstab

----------

_771subliminal_ (05-16-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (05-16-2009)

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## AjBalls

> Who are you again?


You'd have to introduce yourself a first time to explain who you are again. And I don't believe I've had the 'honor' of introducing myself to _you_. 




> What you've got is some very inexperienced and some fairly experienced but very biased opinions based on pure speculation.


Speculation? In a SnakeBytes episode Kel mentions something along the lines of "these are not the cages we keep them in all the time. these are for feeding"

But in the video some many pages back someone posted Brian clearly stated "We're making a new one (cage) that's gonna be 10'..... so she'll be really happy with her new cage."

If that's not a tip off that this is/was the monitors temporary cage, please do say so. 

Actually, don't. You'll probably just come up with some obnoxious sarcastic answer.




> There are no facts to support allegations, HA, that Brian has treated anything in anyway that was detrimental to the animal's well being.


Now are you honestly going to say that Nile can thermoregulate properly in that tub? It can get its warm end with its basking spot and cool end in that tub?

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_DutchHerp_ (05-16-2009),_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

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## AjBalls

> Anybody know the meaning of the word TEMPORARY?





> Good for building a bigger cage for it. Not the greatest choice for a temporary cage though.


Apparently not...

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## psycho

They might seem a little small but i dont think they mind...

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## wolfy-hound

Actually, just because Brian said they were building a bigger cage doesn't mean it was housed full time in THAT tub.  Just that they were building a bigger cage.  Since that's what was quoted.  Again.. why not call and find out? Go see?

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## DutchHerp

> Actually, don't. You'll probably just come up with some obnoxious sarcastic answer.


 :Good Job: 









And for the record, I will call Brian today when I do have time and ask him about it.

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_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

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## JohnMcD

> And for the record, I will call Brian today when I do have time and ask him about it.


 :Good Job:

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## rabernet

> Why shouldn't he? How come he shouldn't address the question? Because he's Brian Barczyk, one of the most respected people in this hobby/business? In threads with sales inquiries, if something goes wrong, everyone expects/demands the party in question to chime in and explain their side of the story. Not like he doesn't have time to take 2 minutes to address the question of where that Nile now. He posts his SnakeBytes videos on this forum and as one member said, he spends hours a day answering phone calls and emails.


Because some people have already gone crazy with their wild speculations based on six minute long videos. As I said before, if I were Brian, I wouldn't come here and justify this crucifixion with a reply either. 

Because Brian is one of the largest breeders in the country - he will ALWAYS be a target in one manner or another - just like Kevin is, just like Ralph is, just like all the big breeders are. 

Internet gossip is just that - gossip, because people don't have anything better than to do than critique and tear down others to make themselves feel holier than thou. 

Not a single person here who has been flinging the internet poo has had the balls to pick up the phone and give Brian the courtesy of a call. Not one of you. It's so much easier to be keyboard warriors.  :Cool:  

Dutch, I hope you're sincere and MAKE the time to call Brian.

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## JLC

> Personally, I think Brian should make a video addressing this thread (not directly, but show these new 8ft tubs and 10ft Monitor cage).
> 
> In my opinion, that would set this arguement straight.


While it makes sense on the surface to think he could simply make a vid addressing these questions and then everyone would be happy....such is NOT the case.  I guarantee you, for every answer he would try to give, there will be SOMEone still wanting to argue and say it's not good enough and continue the bickering and criticism.  ANYone in the spotlight for any length of time goes through phases like this...and if they were to try and take the time to answer every little nit-picking critique and convince everyone to see their point of view....they'd NEVER get anything else done and the arguing would go on forever. 

And why should THIS thread on THIS forum get special treatment above any other thread on other sites?  There's a reason why guys like Brian rarely, if ever, participate regularly on internet forums.  




> I CAN agree to disagree. I'm going to try to stay away from this thread. Its like running on a treadmill.


Indeed it is.  Threads like this go on for so long because folks can't be content to express their opinion and then let it go.  They must be the LAST one to express it so their's is "on top" I guess.  :Confused:   Or they feel their job is not done until they've convinced everyone else in the thread that their way is the right way.  And all we end up getting is the same ol' arguments over and over again in an endless round-robin where stepping off means you're less of a man or something.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------

Creeptastic (05-16-2009),JohnMcD (05-16-2009),rabernet (05-16-2009),_scutechute_ (05-19-2009),_waltah!_ (05-16-2009)

----------


## rabernet

> an endless round-robin


Heyyyyyy! Leave me out of this!  :Razz:

----------

JohnMcD (05-16-2009)

----------


## stormwulf133

> Heyyyyyy! Leave me out of this!


In addition to a thank you button. I would also like a "smack in the back of the head button" for use with bad puns.  :Smile:

----------

_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-16-2009)

----------


## JohnMcD

> While it makes sense on the surface to think he could simply make a vid addressing these questions and then everyone would be happy....such is NOT the case.  I guarantee you, for every answer he would try to give, there will be SOMEone still wanting to argue and say it's not good enough and continue the bickering and criticism.  ANYone in the spotlight for any length of time goes through phases like this...and if they were to try and take the time to answer every little nit-picking critique and convince everyone to see their point of view....they'd NEVER get anything else done and the arguing would go on forever.


Point taken.  


But I think the monitor portion would make for a cool video  :Very Happy:  (without regards to this thread)

----------


## rabernet

> In addition to a thank you button. I would also like a "smack in the back of the head button" for use with bad puns.


That's what this is for!  :Fishslap:

----------


## Mike Cavanaugh

> Kid, real life and book learin' aren't often the same.


I believe this is your best quote ever.

----------


## Mike Cavanaugh

> Brian has been getting slack for his monitor keeping for quite some time.  Yet I am unable to find an edition of SnakeBytes where he shows us the "actual enclosures".  Or even the makings of one.
> 
> Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are.
> Tubs are ridiculous for monitors, and Wes, I have been keeping large varanids since 1990, and I know what I'm talking about.  Tubs DO make great water containers for small monitors and medium snakes.  And I have been keeping giant snakes since 1986.
> 
> You guys all belong to the same group that think reptiles are stupid, don't know their keepers, can't learn or even recognize themselves.  The same group that thought Mommy Croc was eating her young...
> 
> We haven't even scratched the surface as far as reptile behavioural studies go.  I can tell you, after 30+ years of keeping them, that they are smarter than you think and you are torturing them in those tubs without any stimulation/opportunities to be themselves.
> 
> ...


Has to be a troll....

----------


## DutchHerp

> Dutch, I hope you're sincere and MAKE the time to call Brian.


I called at 4.50 central time.

No answer.

Try again later.

----------

_scutechute_ (05-19-2009)

----------


## Creeptastic

Lol this is getting rediculous. All these speculations without actually contacting the source. And what is the significance of posting on here to claim you called with no avail? You guys should TALK to Brian before continuing with your accusations....because reallly, you arent going to persuade anyone to think like you, you arent going to make a difference, its not going to change a single thing. And for all you know, it can be something totally different than what you are thinking it is. Imagine if you started making all of these accusations and speculations for every big breeder out there...where would this hobby be? Do you think they owe you something? Do you think they should take the time out of there busy day to respond to an online forum topic? Because really , I dont. That just causes more drama. They could answer every question with an answer that would suit your likes, but there would still be others out there to complain about something else. Its how these forums go. Everyone is wrong, everyone is right. It is opinions! Nothing is going to change that.

----------


## tigerretic76

all i have to say about this thread (and how long its gone on) is wow.  its amazing, the amount of uneducated and unjustified posts have been on this thread.  take that comment how you will.  i think we all know which posts are the uneducated ones, pretty obvious.  how many of us on here would buy animals from brian?  i would, in a heartbeat.  and those who wouldnt, because of "the way he keeps his animals" should not post that kind of stuff in here, it probably should go into the boi, where brian would be notified and would put to rest these idiotic accusations

----------

Ben Biscy (05-17-2009)

----------


## CeraDigital

> all i have to say about this thread (and how long its gone on) is wow.  its amazing, the amount of uneducated and unjustified posts have been on this thread.  take that comment how you will.  i think we all know which posts are the uneducated ones, pretty obvious.  how many of us on here would buy animals from brian?  i would, in a heartbeat.  and those who wouldnt, because of "the way he keeps his animals" should not post that kind of stuff in here, it probably should go into the boi, where brian would be notified and would put to rest these idiotic accusations


He's already been asked on numerous forums including kingsnakes monitor forum. The ones asking were respected and well educated monitor keepers and breeders. Guess what? No answers. Nothing has been put to rest...

----------

_AjBalls_ (05-19-2009),_DutchHerp_ (05-17-2009)

----------


## JohnMcD

I also called (just now) and nobody picked up.

----------


## Nate

> I also called (just now) and nobody picked up.


It's Sunday...  :Smile:

----------


## wilomn

> It's Sunday...


WHAT!!! It makes a difference what day of the week it is now? Inquiring parasites, er minds, want to know.

Brian should be at the beck and call of EVERYONE, how can he not know that simple thing?

Just another black mark for Brian, taking a day off when such hot button topics are alive and thriving online.

The NERVE!!!

----------

_771subliminal_ (05-17-2009),JohnMcD (05-17-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-19-2009),rabernet (05-17-2009),_waltah!_ (05-17-2009)

----------


## JohnMcD

> It's Sunday...



 :Embarassed:   Hahaha I be smart!    :Taz:

----------


## rebeccabecca

Wow this must be a record 23 pages :Smile:  In all honesty I think that if a breeder does his job and keeps wild animals wild( NO WC for sale) then he's done his job. Has anyone bought a sick animal from him? has anyone lost money due to his failure to take good care of his breeders? Are his animals taken to the vets when needed,tubs cleaned. geeze my hatchling sav(5inch) is in a 20L and I've been yelled at because of it.

----------


## tigerretic76

that is fine notifying someone on forums that really mean nothing to the big breeders.  if anyone thinks his caring for animals is poor and tainting his reputation as a big name and well respected breeder, then this really should be taken to the right forum, section and correctly labled thread, where every big name breeder checks in on a regular basis and responds, the boi.  this thread is just that, a thread in a forum.  he has way to much to deal with than a couple people thinking his keeping is sub-par.  if this was taken to the boi, alot of questions would probably be answered and minds put at ease.

----------


## CeraDigital

It should mean something. Big or small, a breeder is a breeder. Their business is being questioned with a simple statement, by possible customers. It is their job as the business owners, to upkeep their reputation to those possible customers by simply answering their questions. 

It would take 5 minutes out of his day to snap a picture of the monitor caging, resize it and post, or email to those inquiring. Why not show the actual cages on snake bites, vs their feeding cages? That would be a smart and simplistic business move. How about his staff? I'm sure they could do the same with this problem. All the questions would be put to rest by a simple 5 minutes out of their day.

Is that not what business is about? Not just producing quality animals, but what about customer care, both pre and post-purchase? "Forum drama" or not, the questions are still being asked... yet they still go unanswered...

----------

_AjBalls_ (05-19-2009)

----------


## tigerretic76

understood, but i view it as it seems like a couple people here just trying to start stuff about a well known breeder, for some reason.  it seems the people that are "bashing" brian are the ones that are saying that rack systems are not suitable quarters for housing snakes, and so on and so forth.  and granted, i would admit, it wouldnt take much time to address these accusations, but this is exactly, to the tee, why the boi was created and exists.  is post questions/inquiries/bad experiences/good experiences with breeders and also purchases.  all i am saying, is i bet, more would be accomplished by posting there, where it is truly meant to be, than on a totally non-confrontational forum section.  these forums, to my understanding are supposed to be utilized for people asking advice and posting pics and threads about their animals.  where the boi is about inquiries and questionable breeder practices (if justified)

----------


## CeraDigital

The BOI, although a useful tool sometimes, has more or less lost its purpose. Not much would be gained there. Why take something such as this to another site for the same answer?

Most questions I have seen were legit questions asked about his husbandry. Mainly proper caging for the larger animals. With the rock pythons, I'll agree. The caging isn't too small. It is just right. I've kept and bred Rocks for quite a while. What most would like to see, that he has not answered, after numerous inquiries from respected and educated individuals is his monitor housing. Its a simple question to answer. It doesn't have to be a prime, professionally photographed picture. A simple snapshot of his monitor housing would do. After that, where do those questions go? They're simply answered, and thats that.

As for the feeding cages. Its simply not needed. Look at some of the most respected in monitor breeding and husbandry. How many of them would move a very large lizard to a smaller cage to feed? After that, you risk damaging the animal internally if it decides to retaliate, or it moves incorrectly being maneuvered. Anyone with the animals health in mind most, simply wouldn't do it. Not only the animal is at risk, but the individuals moving the animal take a huge risk too. It's not like moving a snake.

----------


## Creeptastic

Seriously..if I were Brian, I certainly would not be posting in a forum to justify myself. If someone had a problem, it would be okay for them to email or call. Writing on a forum is suicide in that case. Wouldnt solve a thing. As it has been said numerous times, he could say everything, take a picture, and you guys would still find something to argue about. Kinda like this thread, it would turn into a never ending cycle.

----------


## rabernet

> It should mean something. Big or small, a breeder is a breeder. Their business is being questioned with a simple statement, by possible customers. It is their job as the business owners, to upkeep their reputation to those possible customers by simply answering their questions. 
> 
> It would take 5 minutes out of his day to snap a picture of the monitor caging, resize it and post, or email to those inquiring. Why not show the actual cages on snake bites, vs their feeding cages? That would be a smart and simplistic business move. How about his staff? I'm sure they could do the same with this problem. All the questions would be put to rest by a simple 5 minutes out of their day.
> 
> Is that not what business is about? Not just producing quality animals, but what about customer care, both pre and post-purchase? "Forum drama" or not, the questions are still being asked... yet they still go unanswered...


I seriously doubt that Brian's reputation is being ruined over this little thread here on BP.net. 

Brian is under no obligation to answer the nay-sayers in this thread. I don't believe a single one of them have even suggested that they were currently in or planned to be in a deal with Brian at the moment, so there's no customer to be satisfied. 

This also isn't a BOI type thread either, because there's no "wronged" party here that was wronged by Brian in any type of business transaction. In fact, I don't recall anyone pointing fingers here as having ever done business with or even talked with the man.

This thread has no bearing on whether "I" will do business with Brian in the future (and I sure hope to) and I'd hazard a guess that it will not have any bearing on many other people here who have done or plan to do real business with Brian and not just Monday morning quarterback and critique him.

----------

_AaronP_ (05-18-2009),_Spaniard_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## CeraDigital

> I seriously doubt that Brian's reputation is being ruined over this little thread here on BP.net. 
> 
> Brian is under no obligation to answer the nay-sayers in this thread. I don't believe a single one of them have even suggested that they were currently in or planned to be in a deal with Brian at the moment, so there's no customer to be satisfied. 
> 
> This also isn't a BOI type thread either, because there's no "wronged" party here that was wronged by Brian in any type of business transaction. In fact, I don't recall anyone pointing fingers here as having ever done business with or even talked with the man.
> 
> This thread has no bearing on whether "I" will do business with Brian in the future (and I sure hope to) and I'd hazard a guess that it will not have any bearing on many other people here who have done or plan to do real business with Brian and not just Monday morning quarterback and critique him.


Look back on the kingsnake threads about his monitor caging, and on other forums. Those were possible customers wanting to buy from him, but refuse until they see caging. I would be also. Refusing to accept the fact that this could or could not damage reputation is simple ignorance. Be a groupie all you want, but simple thing is it shows customer service, pre-purchase.  :Wink:

----------

_AjBalls_ (05-19-2009),_DutchHerp_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## CeraDigital

> Seriously..if I were Brian, I certainly would not be posting in a forum to justify myself. If someone had a problem, it would be okay for them to email or call. Writing on a forum is suicide in that case. Wouldnt solve a thing. As it has been said numerous times, he could say everything, take a picture, and you guys would still find something to argue about. Kinda like this thread, it would turn into a never ending cycle.


Not many can argue against a picture, with proof of proper caging, don't you think?...

----------


## wilomn

Of course, if a guy actually WAS a good guy, was actually KNOWN for being a good guy, actually CARED what people thought about him, had a reputation, well deserved, for being HONEST, and that guy said, on the same short videos you're all blasting him for, that those were temporary, I don't guess any of you torch carriers would accept that.

Interesting how you'll pick the facts YOU want to use and totally disregard anything that may contradict YOUR opinions.

Do you find a flaw in your logic there?

Afterall, if you accept what he says as truth, even in a small part, would you not be best served by believing all he says? And if you believe him, if his word has always been good enough, why should he have to PROVE anything to any of you?

Basically some of you are calling his very integrity into question.

Heh.

Good thing I'm not Brian.

----------


## AaronP

> Look back on the kingsnake threads about his monitor caging, and on other forums. Those were possible customers wanting to buy from him, but refuse until they see caging. I would be also. Refusing to accept the fact that this could or could not damage reputation is simple ignorance. Be a groupie all you want, but simple thing is it shows customer service, pre-purchase.


What you're referring to is Monitors though, this thread was mainly pertaining to the big snakes.  How he takes care of his monitors would have no bearing on my decision because frankly I know jack about monitors so who am I to judge someone on a subject I know nothing about?

----------


## rabernet

> Be a groupie all you want, but simple thing is it shows customer service, pre-purchase.


You can choose to demean my contribution to this topic by calling me a groupie if that makes you feel better.  :Good Job: 

Those who actually know me know that I am quite capable of making my own judgements about individuals, and am the furthest from a groupie that you can possibly be. 

Whatever happened to the photo session you were so excited about at Brian's btw? His integrity didn't seem to be an issue to you then?

----------

_catawhat75_ (05-18-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-19-2009)

----------


## CeraDigital

> Of course, if a guy actually WAS a good guy, was actually KNOWN for being a good guy, actually CARED what people thought about him, had a reputation, well deserved, for being HONEST, and that guy said, on the same short videos you're all blasting him for, that those were temporary, I don't guess any of you torch carriers would accept that.
> 
> Interesting how you'll pick the facts YOU want to use and totally disregard anything that may contradict YOUR opinions.
> 
> Do you find a flaw in your logic there?
> 
> Afterall, if you accept what he says as truth, even in a small part, would you not be best served by believing all he says? And if you believe him, if his word has always been good enough, why should he have to PROVE anything to any of you?
> 
> Basically some of you are calling his very integrity into question.
> ...


He openly posted through video his husbandry, publicly, on many forums. If something (which has been) spotted wrong, is called into question, it was his own doing. It leaves him open to questioning. If you're investing a good amount of money into animals, you want to know that the animals were kept in prime condition, do you not? 

Why "should" he?...It is part of business. He opened himself up to questionability in his husbandry by posting those videos. I feel it is the right of the customer, or possible customer to ask those questions. They would be the ones investing their money, in Brians animals, correct?

While he is making the videos, how hard would it be to show a quick shot of a monitor cage? What makes this suspicious, and makes things questionable is if you look at any other educated monitor keeper, they do not feed outside of the animals cages. No "feeding" cages, no suspicions. Yet here is Brian with smaller than normal "feeding cages", in where the cage size grossly cramps those animals. Every time monitors are shown on his videos, they are only shown in those "feeding cages". Would that not raise any doubts or questions?...

----------


## CeraDigital

> Whatever happened to the photo session you were so excited about at Brian's btw? His integrity didn't seem to be an issue to you then?


It was canceled for said reasons  :Wink:

----------


## wilomn

> It was canceled for said reasons


I can see your point.

I can see why you have that point too.

Have you asked Brian about them yourself?

----------


## rabernet

> I feel it is the right of the customer, or possible customer to ask those questions. They would be the ones investing their money, in Brians animals, correct?


I missed where anyone questioning Brian in this thread stated that they were a customer or even seriously considering being a customer? 

Can you please point me to official complaints from real customers who have been unhappy with the quality of the animals that Brian has provided to them? 

Everyone I've spoken to has been very happy with the animals that they've invested in with Brian. 

As stated, nothing about this particular thread has anything to do with real transactions with real unhappy customers. Instead, it's about people with nothing better to do, using sketchy evidence from six minute videos to question Brian's integrity. 

And you cancelled a photo shoot because of monitors in feeding tubs?  :sploosh:   :ROFL:  

Seems you could have seen for yourself instead of joining the speculation bandwagon.

----------


## CeraDigital

> I can see your point.
> 
> I can see why you have that point too.
> 
> Have you asked Brian about them yourself?


Yes I have asked Brian. I got an answer stating he would show me what the caging is for the large monitors, yet I never got proof.




> I missed where anyone questioning Brian in this thread stated that they were a customer or even seriously considering being a customer?


This thread, myself. I am still waiting on proof of proper caging. Other threads, other monitor keepers.




> As stated, nothing about this particular thread has anything to do with real transactions with real unhappy customers. Instead, it's about people with nothing better to do, using sketchy evidence from six minute videos to question Brian's integrity.


Possible customers, and inquirers questions should matter just as much. How many other businesses have come into question here, with no unhappy customers to show proof of dissatisfaction, yet those companies are ripped apart for husbandry? Those companies were asked for pictures of proper husbandry and caging...why should Brian be any different. I see no difference. As said, a breeder is a breeder, and if they make something public that looks off, it should be able to be questioned. Isn't that one of the deals with this forum....equal treatment?...

I don't see any real bashing, but more a long the lines of questions being asked, no? Inquiries on caging being too small.




> And you cancelled a photo shoot because of monitors in feeding tubs?


More than feeding tubs, but yes. Improper husbandry or the questionable "feeding cages" with no answer back from Brian on them. Why should I drive an hour or so to his place, take time out of my day for free, to shoot his collection when I still wait for my question to be answered. I have better things to do, and other photo shoots to set up.




> Seems you could have seen for yourself instead of joining the speculation bandwagon.


I could have but chose not to for said reasons again. It should not be on myself to go out of my way to find something out on said company. It should be at the company's discretion to do so.

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## AaronP

> Yes I have asked Brian. I got an answer stating he would show me what the caging is for the large monitors, yet I never got proof.


If you had the opportunity to go and see it for yourself then why didn't you just do that?

Pictures can be used to show you what you want to see it doesn't necessarily have to be a accurate depiction of the reality of the contents of the picture.

Like they say Seeing believing, and you gave up your opportunity to see.


Edit: Oh I see you couldn't be bothered to check it yourself, you couldn't take the personal responsibility to validate your beliefs.  That makes perfect sense...

----------


## Patrick Long

> And you cancelled a photo shoot because of monitors in feeding tubs?


Am I the only one here seeing a Admin mock a member?

----------

_AjBalls_ (05-19-2009),CeraDigital (05-18-2009),joshthaxton (05-19-2009)

----------


## AaronP

> Am I the only one here seeing a Admin mock a member?


I wouldn't say she's mocking him. Just displaying disbelief...

----------


## Patrick Long

I see her trying to push his buttoms and "bear bait" as THEY THEMSELVES call it.


Its obvious that the Admins here are all buddy buddy with Brian, so why wouldnt they "be happy with the quality of their animals".

But they can be happy when it is in their hands, but what about the XX months its lived over at BHB?

----------

_AjBalls_ (05-19-2009),_DutchHerp_ (05-18-2009),joshthaxton (05-19-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-19-2009),_scutechute_ (05-20-2009)

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## AaronP

> But they can be happy when it is in their hands, but what about the XX months its lived over at BHB?


The condition your animal arrives in reflects the conditions it lived in.  If the snake, eats, poops, and acts normal with no parasites or illnesses then what else can you ask for?

----------


## littleindiangirl

So now we are flat out calling Brian a liar? 

Wow... some people are just never happy/satisfied.

----------


## Patrick Long

So a chimpanzee that is stuffed in a box for three years of its life, is perfectly ok once it goes somewhere else, and eats poops and acts normal?

Im just not getting your reasoning here.

----------


## AaronP

> So a chimpanzee that is stuffed in a box for three years of its life, is perfectly ok once it goes somewhere else, and eats poops and acts normal?


C'mon Patrick, that's Apples and Oranges and you know it.

----------


## Patrick Long

Is it really though?


Im not sayin this person is right or this person is wrong, because I have NEVER been to his place.

Im just sayin...

These are valid points. From valid potential customers.

Everyone is a potential customer....so therefore every question should be answered right?

----------


## CeraDigital

> The condition your animal arrives in reflects the conditions it lived in.  If the snake, eats, poops, and acts normal with no parasites or illnesses then what else can you ask for?


Oh? Some snakes handle nastier conditions better than others, species wise. It doesn't necessarily have to contain external parasites to have lived in a nasty condition. I've seen beautiful snakes come from the most horrid conditions, eat upon arrival, and act normal. That point remains invalid.

----------


## wilomn

> Everyone is a potential customer....so therefore every question should be answered right?


Actually, no.

Some are just to bait you.

Some are from competitors.

Some are just stupid.

Some are from people you don't care enough about to answer.

Some are just not worth the time to ask given the asker or the question itself and what it is truly meant to elicit.

I imagine dutch is in school but anyone else who cared could have called Brian, be they for or against this current tangent on keeping big snakes in small tubs.

But then, to do that, would either prove one wrong or right and put an end to this thrilling and intellectually stimulating ongoing activity in perpetuating mountains out of molehills.

Pattimuss, there ain't no fair this side of heaven and I don't believe in that myself soooooo, I don't think you'll be finding it.

----------


## Patrick Long

If this was ANYOTHER breeder in question...they would have been slammed for any little minor inconsistency

----------

_AjBalls_ (05-19-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-19-2009)

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## rabernet

> Am I the only one here seeing a Admin mock a member?


I was posting as a member of this forum, I am allowed to have my own opinion and participate as a member as well. And I did find his reasoning rather amusing. Slay me for being human.

----------


## wilomn

> Oh? Some snakes handle nastier conditions better than others, species wise. It doesn't necessarily have to contain external parasites to have lived in a nasty condition. I've seen beautiful snakes come from the most horrid conditions, eat upon arrival, and act normal. That point remains invalid.


This is true.

----------


## Freakie_frog

If you choose to not do business with a breeder for any reason. I understand that 100%. We all have standards that we like to uphold when we give our business to someone. These standards can range for everyone from the way the animals are fed to the way they are house or shipped. 

Your perfectly entitled to do business with those breeders you choose. However to demand that a businessman come on our forums and justify themselves to anyone is not only very bold but speaks of an ego that needs to be checked. 

Who are we to approach any professional full time business man from aspect of the industry and demand that they plead their case with us.

If you have questions about how a breeder operates call them, talk with them, and make your decision on whether you wish to do business with them. 

When did the internet forums become the scale on which all breeders are weighed. 

I understand the concerns that have been voiced here. They are valid to each of you.

----------

_AaronP_ (05-18-2009),ballpythonluvr (05-18-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (05-18-2009),_Patrick Long_ (05-18-2009),rabernet (05-18-2009),_stormwulf133_ (05-18-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## Creeptastic

I definetaly agree that if a customer has those questions, that is it perfectly fine to call up and discuss them. The fact of the matter is, Brian isnt going to lose customers, or lose business because of people bashing him on a forum. Really...I just think people like to argue. Its what happens on forums....everyone has wide ranges of opinions. If you arent satisfied with how he runs things, don't purchase anything from him..if you are happy, become or stay a customer. Simple as that, nothing is going to change :Wink:

----------

rabernet (05-18-2009)

----------


## AaronP

> I've seen beautiful snakes come from the most horrid conditions, eat upon arrival, and act normal. That point remains invalid.


Well I personally haven't seen this, so I'm basing my comment on my own personal experiences, which have shown that poor conditions result in animals in poor condition, but that is my *opinion*.

----------


## dr del

Hi,

I have to tell you Pat - I don't see bear baiting.

I'm not overly keen on the allegation of staff bias either - but if that's your opinion after reading all of this then I certainly can't change your mind.

You are just as entitled to your opinions as the rest of the members - including the staff. We would never let the personal opinions affect how we enforce the rules but we are still allowed to have them and express them within the framework of the rules if we want to.

Although I have to ask - you don't see any points to ponder in the fact that the people defending him have dealt with him or visited his facility and the most voiciferous people throwing around the wilder of the allegations have done neither?

The initial post asked a specific question and the opinions on that have been mixed.




> if you dont have the space to house 40 retics, rocks and burms
> you shouldnt have them, retics, rocks and burms dont need extreme big cages but the way brian does it is animalcruelty in my eyes........
> its all about breeding/popularity and lots of money i think....





> With the rock pythons, I'll agree. The caging isn't too small. It is just right. I've kept and bred Rocks for quite a while.


But once started the thread has broadened and meandered into the question of monitors with reasons given for and against the use of feeding cages.

Then there are the allegations that Brian was being less than honest when he stated the housing was temporary in another example. I honestly do not think that was called for. Does he have a reputaion for dishonesty that I don't know about?

You say if it was any other breeder they would be slammed for any minor inconsistency - could you link me to any thread where that has happened on the site in the past?

This site has always tried to avoid the spats against breeders or other websites wherever possible from what I have seen.

It's beginning to remind me of a witch hunt or an old mangy dog trying to chew a bone with broken down teeth - he just keeps moving it around trying to find a weak spot.

I don't know a thing about monitors or how they should be caged and fed so have nothing to add to that discussion at all. But I argue with people enough to know that when you change the focus or thrust of the argument but keep the same target then the argument is and always was irrelevant and you start looking for the motivation for the continued attack.

I don't know what the xchange rate is for two cents so you can have a quid if you like.  :Razz: 


dr del

----------


## CeraDigital

> If you choose to not do business with a breeder for any reason. I understand that 100%. We all have standards that we like to uphold when we give our business to someone. These standards can range for everyone from the way the animals are fed to the way they are house or shipped. 
> 
> Your perfectly entitled to do business with those breeders you choose. However to demand that a businessman come on our forums and justify themselves to anyone is not only very bold but speaks of an ego that needs to be checked. 
> 
> Who are we to approach any professional full time business man from aspect of the industry and demand that they plead their case with us.
> 
> If you have questions about how a breeder operates call them, talk with them, and make your decision on whether you wish to do business with them. 
> 
> When did the internet forums become the scale on which all breeders are weighed. 
> ...


He came to the forum of his own free will, and posted said videos that open up questionability towards his husbandry with his animals. We are who we are. The reputation of the breeder is not only made by themselves, but it is also made by the customers who had bought from them.

Internet, and internet forums actually changed the face of the reptile industry, and aided the growth of the reptile hobby. It is no different than something such as the BBB. It makes it much simpler for them to express their customer service. Why wouldn't a thread full of reptile keepers and enthusiasts possibly wanting to purchase an animal, be allowed to inquire on the upkeep and caging of said animals?

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-18-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (05-19-2009)

----------


## wilomn

Brian should have the benefit of the doubt here. I have never heard one single reason why he should not.

The only reputation he has is a good one. 

So you guys saw what amounts to a messy kitchen. What makes you think, ASS ume, that it is always that way?

Brian, from now on, clean house BEFORE you shoot video, not all the yocals get it.

And before anyone says it, I am not friends with Brian, nor have I been a customer in many years, though I have known him for 20 years, maybe a bit more. He's got all the qualities I'd look for in a friend and were he closer, allowing to actually build a friendship, I'd be proud to call him one.

I got no dog in this fight, I just see a bunch of folks demanding  stuff from a good guy in a manner that would irritate me were it directed my way and which, in this instance, I disagree with the use of. I don't think he warrants the type of attention he's getting from some folks here.

Pattimuss, IF he were even remotely rumored to be a scumbag there is no way some of us would be, poorly, trying to back him up, me in particular. It's not favoritism, it's good past business and friends, who can be biased but this must be accepted, backing a good guy. It's what we all hope will happen when someone says crap about us when we aren't there to defend against it.

Sort of like you did for me on that site with that guy who's too dumb to know how stupid he really is, truly in a league all his own, you know?

You had my back, some here have Brians, but it is certainly not favoritism. I suspect that staff here, had they nothing good to say, would simply say nothing at all. Maybe not, but that's my suspicion and I'm sticking to it.

----------

_AaronP_ (05-18-2009),Mettle (05-20-2009),_Royal Morphz_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## CeraDigital

> I have to tell you Pat - I don't see bear baiting.


I see it. Any other member would have been nailed with infractions for it. Correct? They would have also been nailed with negative reps.




> You say if it was any other breeder they would be slammed for any minor inconsistency - could you link me to any thread where that has happened on the site in the past?


I'll give you one simple name. Wes Harris. Wes did not crash the market. His partner did. His partner was posting his breeder animals for sale, yet your staff ripped him a part, as well as members. For what? His husbandry was correct. His animals were very healthy. The only thing anyone had on him was that his partner, not Wes, was crashing markets.




> This site has always tried to avoid the spats against breeders or other websites wherever possible from what I have seen.


I've seen otherwise. I've been here around 4 years, and I've seen numerous breeders being attacked and persecuted, even when defending themselves, with both staff and members against them. Valid reasons for inquiring were brought up here, and elsewhere for a while, and yet go unanswered.

As for JP's answer vs. mine. European views on giant husbandry differs from Americans. It's tat simple. They're not cramping their animals in smaller enclosures than needed, yet still they do not give them ridiculous room sized enclosures. He may feel that the cage may be too small. That would be his decision. The cages are just right for the size. As for the monitors, it is different. Feeding cages are a good way for personal injury, or injury to the animal. Cages that small for monitors are in fact that....small....a little too small....

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## CeraDigital

> You had my back, some here have Brians, but it is certainly not favoritism. I suspect that staff here, had they nothing good to say, would simply say nothing at all. Maybe not, but that's my suspicion and I'm sticking to it.


Wilomn, no strike against you, but I am not bashing, nor taking a jab at Brian. I simply see some inquiries that should be answered. Some of the questions asked have went unanswered for a while now, and ignored. Not only by beginning hobbyists, but experienced monitor keepers who have been doing such for well over a decade. Bad business in my views. I've asked him before, with no reply.

----------


## Freakie_frog

> He came to the forum of his own free will, and posted said videos that open up questionably towards his husbandry with his animals. We are who we are.


I agree and yet I have yet to see a post (unless I missed it) say's.. "I saw the video and called Brian because I was in the process of buying an animal from him..Heres what he said.."




> The reputation of the breeder is not only made by themselves, but it is also made *by the customers who had bought from them*.


And yet Brian is one of the most consistently profitable breeders on the face of the earth. So I'd say his reputation is secured by said customers from the last 25 years.




> Internet, and internet forums actually changed the face of the reptile industry, and aided the growth of the reptile hobby. It is no different than something such as the BBB. It makes it much simpler for them to express their customer service.


I agree it has both for the good and the bad..




> Why wouldn't a thread full of reptile keepers and enthusiasts possibly wanting to purchase an animal, be allowed to inquire on the upkeep and caging of said animals?


I never said you weren't...however why would a group of *truly concerned* reptile keepers and possible customer if they are _seriously_ concerned not pose these questions and accusations on an internet forum and not to the person in question..I have a theory.

1: They lack the true concern and are merely wanting to stir the pot. 

2: They lack the intestinal fortitude to make the same accusations in person they do behind the keyboard..

Even lets say for a moment  Brian is doing a horrid thing to these animals. Who has called him to pose these concerns to him personally.

I want to hear from you..Who has been so upset by what they saw they called Brian???

----------


## BHB

Wow, do people really have nothing better to do then critique my caging?? I only have about 8 big pythons in my collection. I used to work with many more in the past. I had a nice viv for a big monitor that she would destroy every time I fed her. So I used to use a cage to feed her in. I only had the one big monitor. I have since got rid of it because it was too hard to care for in my collection. I have spent 23 years loving and caring for animals, that doesn't mean that I should get a free pass, but I can't believe that anyone that knows me or how I feel about animals would ever accuse me of doing anything but what I think is right for the animals. The only difference between me and all the other big breeders is that we put on a web show that is meant to enrich the community. I work hard at having people get excited about a hobby that I have loved for ever. I'll be honest with all the B.S. that has followed me around this past month or so I am having a hard time wanting to continue on with this open lifestyle. I make nothing off it, and it cost me a ton of money and time and all it seems to be doing is putting a bullseye on my back. Do you think that other breeders have zoo vivs that they keep their animals in?? They just haven't opened their lives up for everyone to see. I thought it was the right thing to do for the community. I'm starting to reconsider. I don't want to continue this back and forth in this  thread, I need to care for animals not get pulled into an forum war. I respect anyones opinions, but please don't accuse me of lying or not caring for my animals. I can assure you that there is nobody that I know that makes more bad finacial decisions just so my animals get better care then what I do. I will always sacrifice money for the better of the animal. My life is my animals and if I did this for the money I would have got out of the business by now. I'll be totally honest, with all the lies like I'm trying to put the small breeders out of business or that I don't care for my animals or whatever the rumor is for the day. It is sucking the enjoyment that I have had for the hobby for so long. I don't want this to happen and I certainly didn't do anything to deserve it other then dedicate my life to animals. The hundreds of hours I spend responding to every e-mail about people that are getting their first snake or ones that have a problem with a snake even if they have a hundred of them. I don't get anything out of it, but trying to help the community. Try to get a return e-mail from most big breeders about a pastel you bought from someone else. See how many will return them?? I do it because I care about the animals whether they are mine or someone else's. I don't need a metal, but I would like a little respect for all that I try to do. I don't deserve respect, I feel I have earned it. I need to really think about the future of this more public life that I have decided to take. I don't know if it's worth it???? Brian(BHB)

----------

_2kdime_ (05-18-2009),_771subliminal_ (05-18-2009),_AaronP_ (05-18-2009),CeraDigital (05-18-2009),_Coils_ (05-23-2009),Creeptastic (05-18-2009),dr del (05-18-2009),_dreese88_ (05-19-2009),_Egapal_ (05-20-2009),Enser54 (05-18-2009),Gary Orner (05-24-2009),herper55 (01-23-2010),_LaFilleClochette_ (05-19-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (05-18-2009),_Lucas339_ (05-18-2009),Mettle (05-20-2009),_monk90222_ (05-20-2009),rabernet (05-18-2009),_Royal Morphz_ (05-18-2009),Salem Purrs (05-23-2009),_Sarin_ (05-22-2009),_SGExotics_ (06-23-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (05-18-2009),_stormwulf133_ (05-18-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-18-2009),strikerratt (05-18-2009),_waltah!_ (05-18-2009),_zackw419_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## CeraDigital

> I want to hear from you..Who has been so upset by what they saw they called Brian???


I have, as I've stated. Via phone call, talking to Brian, I've asked about monitor caging he uses, and I was told he would get me a picture. I'm still waiting. THIS is why I am here posting. I want my inquiry answered as do others.

----------


## CeraDigital

> Wow, do people really have nothing better to do then critique my caging?? I only have about 8 big pythons in my collection. I used to work with many more in the past. I had a nice viv for a big monitor that she would destroy every time I fed her. So I used to use a cage to feed her in. I only had the one big monitor. I have since got rid of it because it was too hard to care for in my collection. I have spent 23 years loving and caring for animals, that doesn't mean that I should get a free pass, but I can't believe that anyone that knows me or how I feel about animals would ever accuse me of doing anything but what I think is right for the animals. The only difference between me and all the other big breeders is that we put on a web show that is meant to enrich the community. I work hard at having people get excited about a hobby that I have loved for ever. I'll be honest with all the B.S. that has followed me around this past month or so I am having a hard time wanting to continue on with this open lifestyle. I make nothing off it, and it cost me a ton of money and time and all it seems to be doing is putting a bullseye on my back. Do you think that other breeders have zoo vivs that they keep their animals in?? They just haven't opened their lives up for everyone to see. I thought it was the right thing to do for the community. I'm starting to reconsider. I don't want to continue this back and forth in this  thread, I need to care for animals not get pulled into an forum war. I respect anyones opinions, but please don't accuse me of lying or not caring for my animals. I can assure you that there is nobody that I know that makes more bad finacial decisions just so my animals get better care then what I do. I will always sacrifice money for the better of the animal. My life is my animals and if I did this for the money I would have got out of the business by now. I'll be totally honest, with all the lies like I'm trying to put the small breeders out of business or that I don't care for my animals or whatever the rumor is for the day. It is sucking the enjoyment that I have had for the hobby for so long. I don't want this to happen and I certainly didn't do anything to deserve it other then dedicate my life to animals. The hundreds of hours I spend responding to every e-mail about people that are getting their first snake or ones that have a problem with a snake even if they have a hundred of them. I don't get anything out of it, but trying to help the community. Try to get a return e-mail from most big breeders about a pastel you bought from someone else. See how many will return them?? I do it because I care about the animals whether they are mine or someone else's. I don't need a metal, but I would like a little respect for all that I try to do. I don't deserve respect, I feel I have earned it. I need to really think about the future of this more public life that I have decided to take. I don't know if it's worth it???? Brian(BHB)


Brian, I do tip my hat to you for the publicity of your animals and opening your facility to the simple hobbyists. I did not come here to bash you. I simple ask if you would post the pictures of your monitor caging. Not the "feeding cages". It would put a lot of questions to rest....

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## BHB

One last thing, I agree nobody has called or e-mailed me with concerns. If you need answers come to me, not to a forum to try to make me look bad. I don't check these forums everyday, the only way that I knew about this is several people contacted me about it. I will never avoid a question or not live up to my responsibility. I make mistakes all the time. I have killed animals by accident, I'm not perfect and never say that I am. I also open my collection to everyone to watch on video, but also to anyone that visits. I had 40 people over on saturday, they looked at every cage they wanted too. I don't keep secrets, so if you want to know contact me! Give me that respect. bhb@comcast.net  I'll always be happy to answer your concerns, Brian(BHB)

----------

_2kdime_ (05-18-2009),_771subliminal_ (05-18-2009),ballpythonluvr (05-18-2009),Creeptastic (05-18-2009),dr del (05-18-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (05-18-2009),_Lucas339_ (05-18-2009),_Royal Morphz_ (05-18-2009),_Sarin_ (05-22-2009),_SGExotics_ (06-23-2009),_stormwulf133_ (05-18-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-18-2009),strikerratt (05-18-2009),_waltah!_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## AaronP

Wow I honestly didn't expect Brian to post, that said, he shouldn't have had to post.

What I realized just a moment ago, which is hilarious to me, is that people were arguing about the Monitor's cage size and relating that to buying from Brian, when that Monitor (a Savannah Monitor if I remember right) was Brian's pet.  And what's funnier is that if the OP would have called / E-mailed Brian in the first place (or anyone of us for that matter) we'd know that he doesn't even have the animal any longer.

Funny no?

----------

_771subliminal_ (05-18-2009),_LaFilleClochette_ (05-18-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (05-18-2009),_stormwulf133_ (05-18-2009)

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## Jenn

Scrape them off and move on Brian. I can tell you that it most definitely is NOT worth it. The only way to win this game is to not play!!! Let them kick around someone else for a while.

----------

Creeptastic (05-18-2009),_stormwulf133_ (05-18-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## rabernet

> Its obvious that the Admins here are all buddy buddy with Brian, so why wouldnt they "be happy with the quality of their animals".


Btw, Patrick, I am not buddy/buddy with Brian, as you seem to believe. I've had one phone conversation with him about HR669 and to date, have not purchased any animals from him. I hope to one day, but I haven't yet. 

Other than that, I've only talked to him at shows, and even that was briefly.

I participated in this thread, because I can't believe how quickly people want to draw and quarter the man. Because as an observer, that's what I see.

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## rabernet

> I see it. Any other member would have been nailed with infractions for it. Correct? They would have also been nailed with negative reps.


For the same question I asked with a laughing smilie? Uh...no, they wouldn't have. If that were true, Wes would be infracted right on out of here by now with some of his posts (no offense to Wes). 

You both know that as a staff we are as fair if not more fair than any other internet forum out there. 

Next time I'll remember that you guys are a little thin skinned when I compose my posts to you.

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_771subliminal_ (05-18-2009)

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## CeraDigital

> For the same question I asked with a laughing smilie? Uh...no, they wouldn't have. If that were true, Wes would be infracted right on out of here by now with some of his posts (no offense to Wes). 
> 
> You both know that as a staff we are as fair if not more fair than any other internet forum out there. 
> 
> Next time I'll remember that you guys are a little thin skinned when I compose my posts to you.


Actually, no. I'd caught infractions for less. I've been asked to remove things from my signatures, been disqualified from photo contests, the list goes on and on...and for what? If you believe you're more fair than any other internet forum...maybe you should hang out on more forums.

As for the thin skinned comment. It seems we're not the only ones  :Wink:  That could be taken as more bear baiting, no? You and your staff seem to flip things around on other members, myself included. Call things bear baiting, poking sticks, etc... When you claim to be a fair forum. What about the staff themselves. From what I've seen with a select few out of the staff, I've seen the opposite behavior...

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## AaronP

> Actually, no. I'd caught infractions for less. I've been asked to remove things from my signatures, been disqualified from photo contests, the list goes on and on...and for what? If you believe you're more fair than any other internet forum...maybe you should hang out on more forums.
> 
> As for the thin skinned comment. It seems we're not the only ones  That could be taken as more bear baiting, no? You and your staff seem to flip things around on other members, myself included. Call things bear baiting, poking sticks, etc... When you claim to be a fair forum. What about the staff themselves. From what I've seen with a select few out of the staff, I've seen the opposite behavior...


Anyone done throwing poo around?  As littleindiangirl once told me "Take it to PM".

Or you could always utilize the ignore feature in your UserCP.  :Smile:

----------


## Freakie_frog

Lets all take a step back for just a second..

Take a deep breath and think long and hard before jumping off this ledge.. 

The staff doesn't give infractions lightly by any means. It may seem this way but please take my word for it, infractions are not a haphazard decision. 

So before anyone continues down this path lets all take a long slow look at what we may be implying when it comes to staff or Admin.

----------

ballpythonluvr (05-18-2009)

----------


## CeraDigital

> Lets all take a step back for just a second..
> 
> Take a deep breath and think long and hard before jumping off this ledge.. 
> 
> The staff doesn't give infractions lightly by any means. It may seem this way but please take my word for it, infractions are not a haphazard decision. 
> 
> So before anyone continues down this path lets all take a long slow look at what we may be implying when it comes to staff or Admin.


I've seen otherwise, as have other members. Some have spoken up in this thread concerning that topic on staff vs. members...

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## Jenn

OK I give this about five, four three, two.......

----------


## dr del

Hi,




> Originally Posted by dr del
> 
> 
> I have to tell you Pat - I don't see bear baiting.
> 
> 
> I see it. Any other member would have been nailed with infractions for it. Correct? They would have also been nailed with negative reps.


If you really feel that that crossed the line into bear baiting then I would suggest you PM one of the admin team and ask to have it looked at. 

Since you are perfectly capable of leaving rep points I'm not sure what that has to do with it?




> Originally Posted by dr del
> 
> You say if it was any other breeder they would be slammed for any minor inconsistency - could you link me to any thread where that has happened on the site in the past?
> 
> 
> I'll give you one simple name. Wes Harris. Wes did not crash the market. His partner did. His partner was posting his breeder animals for sale, yet your staff ripped him a part, as well as members. For what? His husbandry was correct. His animals were very healthy. The only thing anyone had on him was that his partner, not Wes, was crashing markets.


Do you honestly feel that what MKR did was a "minor inconsistency" ?

They also had accusations against the company for selling  "morphs" as genetically proven when they were not even genetic, selling animals they did not actually have etc. You yourself had to get a refund becuse they sold you an animal they did not have.

Do you for one single second think that is a fair comparrison to this situation?




> Originally Posted by dr del
> 
> This site has always tried to avoid the spats against breeders or other websites wherever possible from what I have seen.
> 
> 
> I've seen otherwise. I've been here around 4 years, and I've seen numerous breeders being attacked and persecuted, even when defending themselves, with both staff and members against them. Valid reasons for inquiring were brought up here, and elsewhere for a while, and yet go unanswered.


I have been here only four months less than your good self.  :Wink: 

Of these numerous breeders being attacked why did you choose MKR as an example? They were hardly unfairly attacked.

If the staff know something underhand is going on they are not only allowed but actually duty-bound to speak up. Which *innocent* breeder was attacked by staff over a "minor inconsistency" and treated unfairly?




> As for JP's answer vs. mine. European views on giant husbandry differs from Americans. It's tat simple. They're not cramping their animals in smaller enclosures than needed, yet still they do not give them ridiculous room sized enclosures. He may feel that the cage may be too small. That would be his decision. The cages are just right for the size. As for the monitors, it is different. Feeding cages are a good way for personal injury, or injury to the animal. Cages that small for monitors are in fact that....small....a little too small....


I do know that european views differ on quite a few topics about housing, heating and breeding etc.  :Smile:   **points to the location field in his profile**

I think Brian said all he needed to.

And I really think you need to take Ed's advice and think about that last post and the accusations it contains.


dr del

----------


## Creeptastic

I really hope you dont stop doing what you love Brian. You have added so much more to this community than anyone else has, for ME. You seriously make me more and more excited about reptiles, and eager to learn every time I read or watch you! Thank you, and seriously dont let a few people on a forum get you down. Look at how many more people respect, and truly appreciate you for what you have done, and then look at the people who come to a forum bashing and stiring up trouble without even talking to you. I know there is many more on the good side  :Smile:  I truly believe that you care deeply for every single animal that you have ever had. And never forget that there is so many of us out there cheering you on. I would never have been so enthusiastic about reptiles like I am today if I hadnt found your videos and website months ago.

----------

_stratus_020202_ (05-18-2009)

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## AaronP

> I've seen otherwise, as have other members. Some have spoken up in this thread concerning that topic on staff vs. members...


The hell is wrong with you?  If you're so annoyed with how the staff perform their 'job' take it up with them in PM or in the Site Info board stop posting in this thread.  You're just publicly making a donkey out of yourself.

----------


## Jerhart

[goes and gets popcorn]

----------

_waltah!_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## CeraDigital

> If you really feel that that crossed the line into bear baiting then I would suggest you PM one of the admin team and ask to have it looked at.


Please tell me what good that would do, when it was the Administrative staff itself doing the bear baiting. The point was on a fair forum. I see no fair forum, which is why I rarely post here anymore...




> Do you honestly feel that what MKR did was a "minor inconsistency" ?
> 
> They also had accusations against the company for selling  "morphs" as genetically proven when they were not even genetic, selling animals they did not actually have etc. You yourself had to get a refund becuse they sold you an animal they did not have.
> 
> Do you for one single second think that is a fair comparrison to this situation?


Do you know the full stroy on what happened? Then how does that become a fair "persecution"?

I named one name, not the company. Wes was stuck...simple as that. They have a gold blush. The albinos that are produced from it come out different. He still has those animals and they still produce weird animals every clutch. How is that not genetic? I've seen it. So have others, including a member here which no longer posts. I will not drop his name. If you want it, PM me.

As for me needing a refund. It was because Joe Capone sold me one of Wes' breeder animals that he did not have for sale. Wes was nice enough to refund me, and apologize for the inconvenience, as well as give me an animal as an apology. He was busy cleaning up Joe's mess, out of his own pocket. Yes I do feel it is a fair comparison. He didn't do anything wrong, yet was attacked and ripped apart on this forum. As I've said, his partner was the one doing the damage, and he either lost all his animals walking away, or attempted to clean the mess up and make things right. Which would you do?





> I have been here only four months less than your good self. 
> 
> Of these numerous breeders being attacked why did you choose MKR as an example? They were hardly unfairly attacked.


Which is long enough to see what has been going on. See above. Although in Joe's situation it would have been a fair attack, the main one being attacked was Wes.




> If the staff know something underhand is going on they are not only allowed but actually duty-bound to speak up. Which *innocent* breeder was attacked by staff over a "minor inconsistency" and treated unfairly?


Again, see above.

----------


## Jerhart

Tiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn Roooooof!






...rusted!  :Razz:

----------


## AaronP



----------


## Buttons

> [goes and gets popcorn]


I'd rather have the smores that denial talked about earlier in this thread.  :Very Happy:

----------

_Denial_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## Patrick Long

I never questioned anything about Brian here.





> Brian should have the benefit of the doubt here. I have never heard one single reason why he should not.
> 
> The only reputation he has is a good one. 
> 
> So you guys saw what amounts to a messy kitchen. What makes you think, ASS ume, that it is always that way?
> 
> Brian, from now on, clean house BEFORE you shoot video, not all the yocals get it.
> 
> And before anyone says it, I am not friends with Brian, nor have I been a customer in many years, though I have known him for 20 years, maybe a bit more. He's got all the qualities I'd look for in a friend and were he closer, allowing to actually build a friendship, I'd be proud to call him one.
> ...

----------


## CeraDigital

> 


Cute picture. 

Although it gets old with you repeatedly using it...

This could also be considered bear baiting as well, right? As for making myself look like a "donkey". It's kind of the other way around  :Wink:

----------

_DutchHerp_ (05-18-2009)

----------


## LaFilleClochette

> 



nice and totally was me reading this thread. I have not wanted to post because there are so many strong opinions, not all of which i agree with but still... and as for Brian- Ive never met the guy, only know him through his vids and the site...and I think hes a great guy, I've learned so much thanks to his videos, and i really hope he doesnt stop....

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## JLC

The original point of this thread has been dragged through the mud and beat to death far long enough.  Questions have been asked and answered.  Anyone reading it is free to come to their own conclusions about who was "right" and who was "wrong" and who the "donkeys" are.  

I would like to remind members that if they have a problem with staff, there are ways to address it that do not involve dragging threads off topic and adding more mud to an already difficult situation.  

First and foremost, the very best thing to do if you have an issue with something a staff member has said or done is to address them directly and privately about it.  If you truly feel that such contact would go badly, then please feel free to contact any other staff member, whoever you feel most comfortable talking with.  We're always glad to work things out.  We're not perfect and do make mistakes and work hard to hold each other accountable for genuine errors.  

If you have some reason for feeling like your complaint MUST be made public, then we have the Site Info forum for you to make a comment in.  

I'd like to point out that if the staff here were so completely biased and unreasonable as we've been accused of being, then those accusing members would probably already be gone...or at least have heavy infractions levied against them.  But nothing of the sort has happened, because we do respect people's rights to voice their opinions, so long as they are not intentionally trying to undermine the integrity of the site or the staff.

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_AaronP_ (05-18-2009),JohnMcD (05-18-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (05-19-2009),_Sarin_ (05-22-2009),_stratus_020202_ (05-18-2009),_waltah!_ (05-18-2009)

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