# Other Pythons > General Pythons >  WOW SOME PEOPLE!!! its long but PLEASE READ!!!!

## Andrew24

oook so i left this comment on this vid on youtube.. idr what it said... and i don't remember what this dude comment said either but it started this convo between me and him... and this is what he sent back to my letter.. i would post my letter too but i think that would make poeple not even bother reading this due to how long it would be anyways.. here it is....

No, not all reptiles, just exotics. If the money market dries up due to the ban on exotics then they should switch to native species. Selling exotics is comparable to handing a child a stick of dynamite with the fuse lit, especially in Florida!
Banning them nationwide makes sense. Otherwise, what's there to prevent someone from one state with no ban smuggling one exotic into another state that has a ban?
If a person can't be happy with a native snake then that tells me they're only owning an exotic for the 'cool' factor...shallow-brained people with piss-poor egos.
It's only gotten that cold in the 'glades 6 times in my 57 years of being a Florida native. There are pythons that survived the last freeze. Those that did will produce offspring that will pass on those survival traits. And they are spreading. A 14-footer was killed (ran over by a semi) on I-4 west of Orlando just this week. probably escaped the freezing temps by holing up in a gopher tortoise (a native terrapin) hole. So much for "that's that". Once adapted they will spread into other states. Gators survive in northern Mississippi where it snows every year. If they can do it so can exotics. Check out the October issue of Outdoor Life magazine on page 8. It is predicted burms may be established as far north as the Potomac River & as far west as southern California by 2050. That's how that makes sense.
Meanwhile 5 endangered species of native animals are being devoured by these exotics.
As far as pets go... there is a difference between reptiles & mammals. Most mammalian pets come to their owners when called. They're not capable of destroy entire ecosystems. They're not capable of producing up 100 offspring per year. Need I go on? It's comparing apples to oranges.
Jobs? I created my own career. 9 to 5 sucks. I went to jail for punching out a boss who thought it would set a fine example to cuss me out in front of other employees. I beat the hell out of him (so much for his example) before he finished his 2nd sentence. So I sued him for verbal attack on an employee, theft of personal equipment, & filing false charges leading to an arrest. I won. For over 25 years now I make my living as a canoe tour guide on florida's primitive waterways & as a florida wilderness survival instructor. I also teach foraging & wildcrafting (medicinal flora & fauna) techniques. The world can go to hell in a handbasket and I'll still make out quite well. Again, this world is all about adapt or die. Those marketing in exotics can find another line of wares to sell. There are always alternatives.
No, you're not being a jerk. In fact you make your points, although not without flaws, quite well. Hopefully you've gained some insight as to why this native-born floridian that was raised in & around florida's waterways is doing his best to eliminate all invasive species, both flora & fauna.
I enjoyed this discussion! Have a good day.

tell me what u all think.. i sent him something back and he never responded to me.. i think this is due to what i said.. he knew i was right and he was wrong.. i did my best not to be rude lol..

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## musicalKeyes

The line that got me was the "mammalian" bit. Gerbils don't come when called. Mice don't come when called. Rabbits, Guinea Pigs, and hamsters don't come when called. (in general). And all of these could possibly escape into a Southern State, have FAR more babies than a snake, and be almost impossible to get rid of. I think that in many places invasive mammal species have become just as much of a problem, but they have fur and are cute, so are clearly not as big of a problem as snakes are, right? (note the heavy sarcasm  :Rage: )

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## Elise.m

I live in the warmest area in California, and even here the snakes would die in the winter. I don't think many snakes would be able to survive a winter out west. It may be all warm during the tourist season and that's why people think it's that way, but it gets cold during the winter.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> tell me what u all think.. i sent him something back and he never responded to me.. i think this is due to what i said.. he knew i was right and he was wrong.. i did my best not to be rude lol..


Im interested in knowing what you sent back to him and why you say he knew you were right and he was wrong.. Im not sticking up for the guy. Judging from his reply to you, he is an intelligent man who stands by his word. This is why I find it hard to believe you could say anything that he would even remotely consider "right". I think stubborn is a better word for it..

His comment about you making points was his way of being respectful to you. It was a sort of friendly debate the two of you had..

So enough about that. I agree about the furry pets thing. The only furry pets that come when called is a dog and some cats. That was a little silly on his part. 

Maybe its just me, but I first loved snakes because I was facinated by them as a child. When I was old enough to buy my own and purchased my first big snake was when I realised just how much I did care for these animals. The bring such a calm and peace. It has nothing to do with "cool" factor. Im sorry but a native snake would not be the same. The temperaments of constrictors is very very different from colubrids etc.. 

He may know alot about the florida ecosystem but he still has no right to say who can have their pet and what type of pet it can be. I can understand strict laws/permits/inspections etc, on deadly or highly dangerous animals. IE: big cats, venomous snakes, certain types of apes etc.. But for an animal like a constrictor, all it takes is a little knowledge and a little experience with these guys and they should not be as dangerous as people make them out to be. 

As for the effect on the ecosystem? I give up on that one. Im just going to wait it out and see what mother nature does. What gets me is there are FAR more important and far more devastating things to worry about right now. These bills were silly from the start. Thats all I know.

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RockyTop (02-10-2010)

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## coldblooded

He's wrong that mammalian pets don't destroy ecosystems... cats are some of the most destructive pets to native animals that there are. (Birds, rodents, reptiles, etc etc..)

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_771subliminal_ (02-10-2010),_BPelizabeth_ (02-10-2010),CelticVikingNerd (06-29-2018)

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## SNIKTTIME

Last time I was up north they still had Nutrias running wild in North Jersey near the Meadowlands. They are an introduced species of rodent, very large rodent at that.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> Last time I was up north they still had Nutrias running wild in North Jersey near the Meadowlands. They are an introduced species of rodent, very large rodent at that.


Yeah in Louisana they go out in trucks with guys in the bed with rifles and a big spotlight. They shine the canals for the nutria. They have to hunt them like that regularly to keep the populations down.

What about rabbits? They are destructive too. There is no feesable way to put a stop to any of it unless you can go back in time and prevent oceanic travel from ever happening. No boats, no immigrations, no settlers, nothing. Even then you have to consider all the countries that are connected. It just isnt preventable. Period. 

Go back in time and tell the egyptions that they cant have ball pythons as pets. Tell Xerxes he cant take all those exotic animals from their homeland to show his wealth and power. It goes on and on.. Cant stop it.

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RockyTop (02-10-2010)

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## MustBeSatan

I'm bored and can't sleep.  So I'm going to play devils advocate on this one.  Sorry in advance  :Smile:   Also, I warn that it is 4:45 am, so please excuse any structural/grammatical/spelling etc. errors that may have occured.  Thanks.

First and foremost, I have always had a problem with the tendency of exotic pet owners to employ tu quoque arguments the way we do (and I do mean we, I have done it as well, and it can sometimes be convincing to the right person, but I digress).  What I mean is (using this thread as an example, really honestly not picking on the people in this thread on purpose) saying that "Rodents have been released and have also done a ton of damage" in no way makes it acceptable that the same has happened with big snakes.  It's very true that other non-native species have been released in North America and done more damage and spread more widely than most any reptile would be able to.  Does that mean that it is less serious for reptiles to have found their way out into the wild?  Absolutely not, don't try to act like it does.  

The introduction of non-native species is always serious, be it reptile, mammal, bird, mollusc, plant or insect (look at the damage the Emerald Ash Borer has done in a few short years!)  

In many ways, giant snakes roaming free in North America does for the anti-non-native species movement what no beetle or mussel can do:  It can make almost anyone go "Holy crap, that shouldn't have been allowed to happen."

Tell the average person that the Starling was introduced voluntarily to NA and they will say "Aw, that's too bad, they're annoying".  Tell that same person that 20 foot snakes are now roaming the Everglades because of voluntary importation and release.  Same reaction?  

It's too bad for us that it makes the whole hobby seem dangerous and irresponsible, but I think we have a tendency as exotic pet owners to dismiss the dangers that are inherent in keeping and promoting non-native species.

I read an interesting old thread on some obscure forum that I happened to stumble across the other day.  In it, someone who keeps all manner of snakes and reptiles commented that it would probably be better for everyone if exotic species weren't kept at all.  It would avoid the unnecessary suffering of animals (and, by extension, although not mentioned by this particular poster, would prevent the introduction of those non-native species into the environment).  He also acknowledged that, since it would never happen, he chose to be educated and keep animals in conditions as good as any keeper could provide.

As you can imagine, he was flamed shamelessly for over 15 pages.

Why?  Is he so wrong?

The argument from herpers (do keep in mind I am always including myself in these generalizations) is that "We are educated, we can provide for our animals and give them as good as AND IN MANY CASES a far better life than they would experience in the wild."  That is our reality; we love these animals and really do take the time and effort to care for them properly.

Is that the reality of the exotic pet world?  I would argue it is not.  

I would go so far, in fact, as to argue that responsible exotic pet owners are the minority, not the majority as we would like to think.  We like to imagine that the unfortunate and despicable conditions some exotics are kept in are one off cases of irresponsible owners.  The reality is that the majority of people who have exotic pets (and in many cases, domestic pets, don't think I give cat and dog owners any more credit than anyone else) don't have a damned clue what they're doing.  They saw a cool animal in a pet store or online and bought one for that reason alone.  I don't want to seem like I think I'm an expert because of this, so please don't misinterpret, but I've worked in a major pet store for a couple years now and met the idiots who own pets.  Doesn't matter what species.  The average animal owner doesn't know snout from vent on their animal.  Last week a dog passed a mass of worms on the floor that looked like moving spaghetti.  The owners thought the worms were there because of the food they had been feeding and hadnt done anything about it.  They'd had the dog for 6 months and it had never been to a vet.

These people come in day after day.  As a collective they spend billions of dollars on pets they haven't learned how to take care of. They don't think about the consequences of their actions, or ultimately about the well-being of the animal.  And they make up the majority of the money spent on the pet industry.

The problem is, as long as exotic pets is an "industry", there will be ten irresponsible owners for every one responsible one.  That makes it dangerous.  It is dangerous for non-native species to be on the open market; that's just the reality of it.  We can all go red in the face about how awesome we are as keepers and it doesn't change that simple fact.

As far as snakes being unable to survive here...  It's not unreasonable to suggest they will eventually find a way.  Snakes are damned resilient animals.  They can survive being frozen; go for months with no food; fit into impossible crevices and make real effort to stay hidden most of the time.  Anyone who says snakes wont be able to survive anywhere in North America isn't giving them nearly enough credit. 

Lastly, not to give this guy too much credit...  And obviously, this is the internet, maybe he's a 19 year old World of Warcraft player who lives with his mom, but assuming he was telling the truth...  He seems to have knowledge and experience to back up his points.  In fact, he may be one of the best person to ask about damage that non-native species have done in Florida.  Twenty-five years is a long time to have spent making a living exploring the ecosystem in question.  If there have been changes as a result of non-native species in that time, lets be honest, he would know better than most of us. 

Also, I found this message to be a perfectly polite rebuttal, it seems like he enjoyed (is enjoying?) your debate. 

Anyways, commence the attack.  I like these kinds of discussions because they always make me think about my own reasons for owning animals and how I feel about it.  I pretty much live and breathe pets, between the animals I own and the animals I see at work, and I think its important every once in a while to consider the trade/hobby we are a part of.  Thanks for taking the time to read this, I hope it elicits some great responses!  

- Nick

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## Sariel

I think alot of your points are valid and are ones Ive stated myself when having discussions of similar nature. <mostly about fish as I used to mod on a forum dedicated to fish keeping>. 
   The problem has never really been the animals, but people themselves. Whether due to pet trade, or the intentional introduction of new species for whatever reason some genius thought up at the time. -How- we go about correcting those mistakes is what needs to be looked into. Personally I dont think a ban on every exotic pet is the answer by any means especially not at this point, and the people attempting to put certain bills or regulations into place should at least have some insight into whatever world they are trying to moderate, rather than have an uneducated bias of OMG THIS HAS TO STOP!!.


<ALso, whats wrong with WoW? >>

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## Derrick13

First let me say awsome post MustBeSatan, not only did you have excellent points but your grammar was far better then mine ever is lol. Anyway...

 The fallowing is my personnel thoughts on the subject of invasive species and pets ( from domestic to exotic) and how lacking SOME people can be in knowledge and what I would call common sense.

 First and foremost Burms can cause danger to an ecosystem that can sustain them, regardless if there the top of the food chain, as long as they can live in that system. Thats a simple fact, however, the damage may as well be nothing , especially for the glades. The everglades is a man made ecosystem that has been home to many invasive species since it was created. It was practically never pure, never free of unwanted species. What Im getting at is when people think of a prestine everglades and how now it is rampant with foreign invaders they fool themselves, the glades have always been invaded. Always. Now this isnt justifying the thought that we shouldent do anything, Im just stateing a fact. Now about this bill and how it will help the glades...

...It won't. As simple as that. Must of us know this but there are so many people who don't. All this bill would do is end a buisness during a recession and put far more snakes in the glades.  Furthermore, if legislators were truley woried about the ecosystem and foreign species then they would focus on the "domesticated" cat. no other , NO OTHEIR, animal (besides humans) has caused more extinctions and permanent damage then those little furballs. Yet despite this, or efforts at controling cats is existant at best, and in all reality does apsolutely nothing. Now I feel the reason for this is the uneducation of America in general and the biased thoughts most people have. Ones cute, therefor ok and the other is all scales and "slime" therefor the devil. LoL. So in all honesty for people to attack the snake trade ( especially if they own cats) is just idiotic, as simple as that. Now for fixing the problome...

...it won't happen. As long as our gov is ruled by legislators that are puppets for interest groups and money, we will never truely have a fix on this or any othier ecosystem problome. Realise I am not justy attacking one party but the entire government function! The few times that government does make good steps in the right direction  the fallowing administration usually turns those steps around or takes them ot completely! When Jimmy Carter put solar panels in the white house land, Reagan tore them out as soon as he was elected. Greed, rivalry and the lack of simpathy in our Gov and even a good amount of the entire populace of America will hold us back from ever doing real good. Sorry if I went alittle off topic, but to wrap this up...

As long as people are willfully ignorant and uneducated, there will always be an attack on things those people don't belive in/ understand wether its religion, love or even pets. We need to educate for the benefits of education, not for profit.

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## mainbutter

> what's there to prevent someone from one state with no ban smuggling one exotic into another state that has a ban?


The laws against smuggling?

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## MustBeSatan

> First and foremost Burms can cause danger to an ecosystem that can sustain them, regardless if there the top of the food chain, as long as they can live in that system. Thats a simple fact, however, the damage may as well be nothing , especially for the glades. The everglades is a man made ecosystem that has been home to many invasive species since it was created. It was practically never pure, never free of unwanted species. What Im getting at is when people think of a prestine everglades and how now it is rampant with foreign invaders they fool themselves, the glades have always been invaded. Always. Now this isnt justifying the thought that we shouldent do anything, Im just stateing a fact. Now about this bill and how it will help the glades...
> 
> ...It won't. As simple as that. Must of us know this but there are so many people who don't. All this bill would do is end a buisness during a recession and put far more snakes in the glades.


Quick post, short on time.
First, that's really interesting that the everglades was man made, I didn't know that.  I'll have to look that up! 

I really like your point about the bill not changing anything, maybe even promoting the release of more animals into the wild.  I can definately see that happening.

The other point I will comment on now is the "smuggling" one.  I know that border patrol between countries and between states are two totally different things, but lets be honest, if the problem was people smuggling snakes from somewhere they are permitted into somewhere they are not, all of North America would have to ban the animals.  If one state bans snakes they will come in from another; if the US bans snakes they will come in from Canada or Mexico.  And so on.

I will say, although I know nothing about permits for owning animals, (as far as I know no such system exists in Ontario, maybe not at all in Canada, but I'm not positive on that) I do sort of like the idea of having to get a permit to own certain animals.  Does it make it a pain for lots of really good, responsible people to own them?  Sure it does, and that's too bad, but at the same time, if it stops even SOME irresponsible owners from picking up animals they can't handle, I say it's worth it.  

And away I go!

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## Sariel

I agree. 

  I think a permit granted by a course/test on your knowledge of the animal in questions husbandry, size expectations, and perhaps even a contract promising not to release the animal wouldn't be bad options. -Especially- if they intend to breed.
  Would probably put alot of puppy mills out of business if people had to be registered and licensed to breed.

 Unfortunately that does make it harder on people like me who are just getting into it and really only plan on one breeding pair or so, but Id be fine with putting out the effort if it meant a better chance at keeping people educated and forcing them to be responsible. 

 Im about of the opinion that anything "exotic" should have to be micro chipped, but Im also aware that would probably consume alot of resources to put into place as well as track.

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## Animals As Leaders

There really needs to be some kind of regulation on these GIANT snakes.  Anyone can get them, and to me thats not good.  License's should be required as well as some kind of check on the animal yearly to make sure there not being released or sold(smuggled).  Sounds nuts, but I think needs to happen to stop these animals from being released.  I think people underestimate these snakes, and not everyone should be able to get them so easily or breed them for that matter.  Now I'm by no means an expert but if this man is correct and they are preying on endangered animals then that IS a problem.  Something needs to be done.   :Confused2:

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## BiggBaddWolf

I think this issue, like others is very hard to fix, as there are no simple answers that are going to please everyone. Take guns for instance, if you take them away from responsible gun owners, there are still going to be irresponsible owners who will be able to get them, and use them for illegal purposes. I do think a lot of reptile keepers are of the opinion that the cold winter that people have experienced in Florida will fix the Burmese problem, which simply may not be the case! And you can put in all the laws regarding licensing etc., but like with guns, the people who want them will be able to get them illegally. And no matter how much reptile keepers want to defend their animals, there is a problem with them in Florida, but what the answer is I dont know

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