# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Maternally Incubating Again  =)

## Quiet Tempest

Since I had good luck with it last year, I intend to maternally incubate again this year.  The only difference this time around is that I'm not using the 40g breeder and lay box. These girls are in my rack in Sterilite tubs.   :Smile: 


Dewshine on May 16.... 


Dewshine on May 17....



I'm not sure how many eggs she's got in there. I'm just going to leave her alone for now. She'll uncoil or move away from them for a drink at some point and maybe I'll get a count then. When I last palpated her I think there were 5 follicles so I'm going to guess there are that many eggs in the pile. She was bred earlier this year by my normal but a friend loaned me his pastel over the past couple of months and she locked with him a few times as well.  



Ailynn on May 20....









Ailynn is my 5 year old daughter's snake and she laid her clutch earlier today. I believe she's holding 5 eggs (possibly 6?) but I'm not going to pester her to get a full count. I'm sure I'll find out what she's got all in due time. So far both of these girls are guarding their eggs beautifully and from what I can see of the eggs, they're doing well too. The pairing for Ailynn was basically the same as with Dewshine - normal early on and pastel just before ovulation. I really hope the pastel sealed the deal. Had I known that I was going to get to borrow my friend's pastel, I'd have just used him.

Last year I was able to candle Dewshine's eggs while she was coiled around them and I may try to candle these in a few days. If I do, I'll try to get some more pics.  



Kyriel, my het pied female, has 5 big follicles growing and is still locking up with Gabriel, my het pied male. I'm very anxious to get a clutch from her. I want very much to have a piebald of my own and even better if it's one I produced, myself. I keep peeking in on her hoping to see her ovulating but nothing yet.   :Wink:   I'll be sure to get pics if I do.

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_h4y4sh1_ (09-22-2010),_piedplus_ (09-25-2011)

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## Danounet

Good Luck again!  :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (05-20-2010)

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## jeffh231979

you have better nerves then I do... Good luck!!!!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (05-20-2010)

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## joepythons

Sweet congrats  :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (05-20-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

I do have an incubator up and running just in case, but if this year is anything like last I shouldn't have any problems. My only concern would be the girls losing interest in brooding but they're both doing exactly what they're supposed to and I'm trying to avoid disturbing them too much.   :Smile:

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## Quiet Tempest

This is a pic of Kyriel, my het pied. She's starting to glow and has been staying coiled in the cool side of their tub so I'm hopeful that she'll be ovulating soon. I palpated her and her follicles are huge now. They feel very much like eggs already and if she wasn't sticking to the cool side and still locking fairly regularly with the het pied male, I'd say I'd missed her ovulation. I tried to get a decent shot of her bulge, but she just refuses to cooperate. You may just have to take my word for it.  





I also got a couple more shots of the girls already incubating their clutches.

Ailynn.. just 8 days brooding



Dewshine.. 11 days brooding



I have candled both of these clutches but no pics because I only have so many hands and the mothers aren't particularly fond of having me bothering them or their eggs right now. Both clutches have big healthy veins and I don't anticipate having any problems. I'm happy with the two clutches already on the ground but I'm excited about the clutch the het pieds should give me. I've been wanting a pied of my own for a long time now.   :Smile:

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## Jason Bowden

Congrats!
Good luck and keep us posted!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (05-28-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Got more pics and tried to get a decent shot of egg candling. Moms weren't thrilled with me checking in on them, of course, so I didn't linger for long. Sorry the pics are a bit blurry.


Ailynn 11 days in...




Dewshine 14 days in...

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## llovelace

They are coming along well  :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (05-31-2010)

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## bubblz

_I love the last pic,..its like she's having an ultrasound and seeing the beginning of one of her babies for the first time. 
I hope everything works out like last year._

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-01-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

> _I love the last pic,..its like she's having an ultrasound and seeing the beginning of one of her babies for the first time. 
> I hope everything works out like last year._


I thought for sure that I was about to get tagged while I was trying to get that last pic.  LOL  She never hissed or acted aggressive in any way but she watched my every movement like a hawk while I had her tub open.  :Razz:

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## Rick247

Congrats and good luck

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-01-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

My het pied project seems to be coming to fruition.   :Smile:     Looking forward to having a third clutch of eggs and to the possibility of pied(s) in there!

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## AcePythons

> I thought for sure that I was about to get tagged while I was trying to get that last pic.  LOL  She never hissed or acted aggressive in any way but she watched my every movement like a hawk while I had her tub open.


Haha as I was lookin at the candling pics I was thinking "ohhh wow...braver than I, that's for sure!" I'd have covered their head with a cloth I think (at the very least lol), but I'm a wuss and am not lookin forward to getting bit. 

Good luck with the pied project!  :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-05-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

YouTube - candling Ailynn clutch.mpg

The clip is grainy but I got to peek at a little worm in one of the eggs tonight.   :Smile:   This is one of Ailynn's eggs so it's just over 2 weeks old right now.

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dr del (06-05-2010)

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## WakoNako

That looks soooo cool. Good luck obtaining your pied lol

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-05-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Got video of the other female with eggs as well. She's on Day 20 now. 

YouTube - Dewshine's Clutch at Day 20

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## jben

cool video, you can see it moving.

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-06-2010)

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## Alice

Very cool. Congrats!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-06-2010)

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## snakesRkewl

That is kewl, thanks for sharing.

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-06-2010)

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## moravaguy

way to go there everything looks really good  :Good Job:  :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-06-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Just updating with more pics: 

Taken on June 14th..

Ailynn at 25 Days


Video - 
YouTube - AilynnClutchDay25.mpg


Dewshine at 28 Days


Video - 
YouTube - DewshineClutchDay28.mpg

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## llovelace

Thanks for the update, they seem to be doing great  :Smile:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-16-2010)

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## moravaguy

i love it they look great!!!!!!! :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-16-2010)

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## Boanerges

They are looking good  :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-17-2010)

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## Jeremy78

That's awesome! Does she still put up the weight every year for you?

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-17-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

> That's awesome! Does she still put up the weight every year for you?


This is only my second year breeding balls, but I didn't have any trouble getting her back to her normal size within a few weeks of her eggs hatching last year. I don't anticipate any problems with her or any of the other females this year.  :Smile:

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## Ash

Cool vids. Can't wait to see what the babies look like! I hope you get a few pastels out of the first two clutches.  :Smile:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-17-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

I neglected to mention in my last post here about an incident with Dewshine's clutch. For whatever reason, one of the eggs from her clutch (the weird snowflakey eggs) was rolled out when I checked on her the other day. She loosened her coils when I opened the tub and I was able to carefully place it back with the other eggs. I did candle it because I was afraid that something might have happened to it after having rolled. It was still moving around inside so I closed things up and left her alone. I came back later that night and the same egg was rolled out. I actually pulled Dewshine off of the eggs and held her with one hand while I put the roll-away-egg closer to its sibling eggs with the other. When I was confident that all four of the eggs were sitting snug together, I placed Dewshine back in the tub. She immediately coiled around them and I made sure that her coils held the problematic egg in place before I closed the tub again. I haven't had any further trouble with roll outs. The egg I was so worried about is actually the egg featured in Dewshine's vid above.

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## PYMOM

What good Mommys...they are keeping those eggs looking nice and healthy. Not going to ever breed, but it seems like maternal incubating would be the the natural thing to do...seems like you wouldnt have to worry as much. I always see the pics of the eggs with dents, mildew and all sorts of other prob, but these eggs look so healthy...I wonder why more people wouldnt do it.

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_Quiet Tempest_ (06-19-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Earlier tonight I offered both of these girls a rat pup just to see if they had any interest whatsoever now and while Ailynn didn't show any real interest, Dewshine snatched her meal and swallowed it before I could find the camera for a pic. 


Dewshine at 48 days


Ailynn at 45 days



I would have gotten new candling video but the eggs have started denting and the babies are taking up more room so it's kind of hard to really capture anything besides a veiny egg. The eggs feel paper-thin and soft now. Hope to see baby heads within those coils soon and get some baby pics up!   :Very Happy:

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## Wildman09

Thannks for the update!!...Looks like your gonna have a bunch of babies squirming around with-in the next few weeks....Good luck and enjoy it...

What were the pairings again?

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-04-2010)

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## equinebeing

> the pairing for ailynn was basically the same as with dewshine - normal early on and pastel just before ovulation. I really hope the pastel sealed the deal. Had i known that i was going to get to borrow my friend's pastel, i'd have just used him.


 :Smile:  good luck!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-04-2010)

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## sarahlovesmiike

Glad to see the eggs are doing well! After lots of research and reading this thread I'm convinced to try maternal incubation when I do decide to breed  :Very Happy:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-04-2010)

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## Oxylepy

I dont know... It's nice and all but you really need to be sure everything in her area is proper. Higher humidity than usual, make sure she doesnt lay on top of the heat tape, etc (this is assuming the same general rules apply for maternal incubation as do for artificial incubation). I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs.

Personally I'd rather incubate in an incubator, the only real flaw I see to that method (assuming nothing goes wrong) is that you could be doing psychological damage to the female.

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-04-2010)

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## anatess

> I dont know... It's nice and all but you really need to be sure everything in her area is proper. Higher humidity than usual, make sure she doesnt lay on top of the heat tape, etc (this is assuming the same general rules apply for maternal incubation as do for artificial incubation). I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs.
> 
> Personally I'd rather incubate in an incubator, the only real flaw I see to that method (assuming nothing goes wrong) is that you could be doing psychological damage to the female.


I'm not sure what you're saying about psychological damage.  That's what their nature is meant to do.

Tempest, just wanted to mention that my maternally incubating pastel has been eating every 10 days since she laid (her normal eating schedule).  I don't know what that means but I've been watching those eggs and they seem to be developing like normal.  The cool thing is the mother has not lost any weight and even gained a little - about 40 grams.  So, I guess I'll find out when these eggs finally hatch if my decision to continue feeding was okay.  I'm on day 44 now!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-04-2010)

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## Oxylepy

> I'm not sure what you're saying about psychological damage.  That's what their nature is meant to do.


Oh, no I wasnt talking about the Maternal Incubation, the "method" I was speaking of was putting the eggs in an incubator. You have to remove them from the female and she's already hard wired to take care of those eggs. Seems like it would cause at least some psychological damage there.

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## SlitherinSisters

Oh cool!!! Those moms did a better job than I did this year! Congrats!  :Good Job:  I can't wait to see those babies!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-04-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

> I dont know... It's nice and all but you really need to be sure everything in her area is proper. Higher humidity than usual, make sure she doesnt lay on top of the heat tape, etc (this is assuming the same general rules apply for maternal incubation as do for artificial incubation). I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs.
> 
> Personally I'd rather incubate in an incubator, the only real flaw I see to that method (assuming nothing goes wrong) is that you could be doing psychological damage to the female.


When I did this last year, I did provide my female with a lay box since whe was being housed in a 40g breeder tank. I misted the sphagnum moss lining the box regularly for the first few weeks but it seemed largely unnecessary after the first month and stopped doing so. 

The humidity is no different for these two now than before they became gravid. They're both housed in tubs in my rack system this year with cypress mulch as substrate (but they've pushed it all aside and are sitting directly on the plastic) and I've done nothing extra. I believe that the humidity in my tubs is currently around 70%.

Both females laid their clutches in the back of their tubs, which puts them directly over the heat tape but I've seen no issue with this. They picked the ideal spot for their clutch and who am I to argue with them?  :Wink:   As I understand it from other breeders, they can move the clutch if need be though I've never seen mine do so - at least not more than an inch or so. I've read that in the wild, they leave their eggs in the den to go bask and return to brood when their bodies have warmed up. In captivity, they don't need to. They just tighten or loosen their coils to hold the necessary heat and humidity for their eggs. I just check in periodically to see that everyone is doing well.  :Wink: 




> I'm not sure what you're saying about psychological damage.  That's what their nature is meant to do.
> 
> Tempest, just wanted to mention that my maternally incubating pastel has been eating every 10 days since she laid (her normal eating schedule).  I don't know what that means but I've been watching those eggs and they seem to be developing like normal.  The cool thing is the mother has not lost any weight and even gained a little - about 40 grams.  So, I guess I'll find out when these eggs finally hatch if my decision to continue feeding was okay.  I'm on day 44 now!


Last year I had offered my female a mouse while she was maternally incubating and she wanted nothing to do with it. After reading so many people say that females wouldn't eat anything while they were incubating, I figured this was to be expected (I found out later that this isn't really the case with most females). She had actually stopped eating late January/early February, laid her eggs in May, and didn't feed again until the eggs started hatching in July. I figured this year would be no different but was pleasantly surprised.  :Razz:   I should have tried offering food earlier and will keep this in mind for future maternally incubated clutches. 

I didn't notice any real weight loss with my female last year. She was skinny, sure, but to go so long without feeding I thought she would look terrible. 

As for psychological damage... I have read that moms left to maternally incubate are easier to get back on feed after laying compared to moms whose eggs have been taken from them. Not sure where I originally read about that, though. Sorry.

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qinw (07-04-2010)

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## PYMOM

Do the moms help with the hatching? Cant wait to see it.

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-04-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

> Do the moms help with the hatching? Cant wait to see it.


 When they start feeling the eggs pip, they loosen their coils to let the babies crawl out. That's about all the help that can be offered.   :Smile:

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## Oxylepy

> As for psychological damage... I have read that moms left to maternally incubate are easier to get back on feed after laying compared to moms whose eggs have been taken from them. Not sure where I originally read about that, though. Sorry.


Oh, really? Thats pretty interesting. I assumed that it would be the only major downfall in using an incubator. That makes sense, though.

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## anatess

> When they start feeling the eggs pip, they loosen their coils to let the babies crawl out. That's about all the help that can be offered.


Tempest, sorry to be hijacking your thread a bit, but I was wondering what I should do when my pastel eggs pip.  They are in a small box with mama which is in a bigger plastic container.  So, in the small box, there's hardly any room for eggs and mama, no more than an inch on each of the 2 sides and about 3 inches on each of the other 2 sides (the box is rectangular).  The mama can get out of the box anytime (she usually gets her body halfway out to drink) but I'm not sure if babies would know to get out.  So, when the eggs pip, when do I take the mom away from the eggs?  I'm just wondering if the way I got mine set up if the babies would get crushed under her!

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## sarahlovesmiike

> When I did this last year, I did provide my female with a lay box since whe was being housed in a 40g breeder tank. I misted the sphagnum moss lining the box regularly for the first few weeks but it seemed largely unnecessary after the first month and stopped doing so. 
> 
> The humidity is no different for these two now than before they became gravid. They're both housed in tubs in my rack system this year with cypress mulch as substrate (but they've pushed it all aside and are sitting directly on the plastic) and I've done nothing extra. I believe that the humidity in my tubs is currently around 70%.
> 
> Both females laid their clutches in the back of their tubs, which puts them directly over the heat tape but I've seen no issue with this. They picked the ideal spot for their clutch and who am I to argue with them?   As I understand it from other breeders, they can move the clutch if need be though I've never seen mine do so - at least not more than an inch or so. I've read that in the wild, they leave their eggs in the den to go bask and return to brood when their bodies have warmed up. In captivity, they don't need to. They just tighten or loosen their coils to hold the necessary heat and humidity for their eggs. I just check in periodically to see that everyone is doing well.


That's such good info!  :Good Job:  And now I'm even more convinced

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-05-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

> Tempest, sorry to be hijacking your thread a bit, but I was wondering what I should do when my pastel eggs pip.  They are in a small box with mama which is in a bigger plastic container.  So, in the small box, there's hardly any room for eggs and mama, no more than an inch on each of the 2 sides and about 3 inches on each of the other 2 sides (the box is rectangular).  The mama can get out of the box anytime (she usually gets her body halfway out to drink) but I'm not sure if babies would know to get out.  So, when the eggs pip, when do I take the mom away from the eggs?  I'm just wondering if the way I got mine set up if the babies would get crushed under her!


I don't mind at all.   :Smile: 

Last year I kept my ball in a 40g breeder tank and gave her a 31qt tub to use as a lay box. I cut a hole in the top so she could come and go as she pleased. 



When the eggs started pipping and babies started leaving the eggs, they just cruised around the lay box. One or two of them did find the hole in the lid and were roaming about in the main tank. I was worried about the mom squishing babies that were still in their eggs but kept a close eye on them. She never squished any of the babies though I can see how it could be possible. As they left their eggs, I just moved them to their own tubs and tossed the empty eggs. The mom left the box a few times to drink and once to eat but otherwise stayed with them while they hatched out and while they were exploring the laybox. I think watching her with her newly hatched babies was the best part of the whole process even if it was short lived.

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## qinw

any updates? has the eggs hatched?

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## Quiet Tempest

> any updates? has the eggs hatched?


Not yet, but could be any day now.   :Smile:    I'm guessing that the first clutch will start hatching on Friday and the second by Monday. We'll see.

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## qinw

hi bro.. i intend to do maternally incubating too if i had a chance to breed my ball.. may i ask wat is inside a lay box? when shld i put the lay box in the main tank? wat size is suitable for a lay box? is lay box a must? sorry if i ask too much.. but is my first time.. better be safe than sorry..  :Smile:

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## mykee

QT:



> "I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs."


Actually, the exact opposite is true.  Ball pythons are one of the few snakes that cannot alter the temps or humidity of their environment for the time that they are "babysitting" their eggs.

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## JEWSKIN

i can not wait to see ur results from the maternal incubation I'm going to take pics of lucy either sunday or monday and see if I cant get some candling pics for everyone

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## sho220

> QT:
> 
> Actually, the exact opposite is true.  Ball pythons are one of the few snakes that cannot alter the temps or humidity of their environment for the time that they are "babysitting" their eggs.


I've always heard the opposite of what your stating here as well. Humidity is easy...all they have to do is pee...  :Very Happy:  I thought they could tense and twitch their muscles to produce a little extra heat while laying on eggs though.  :Confused:

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## sho220

This is a really cool thread. I'm definitely going to have to let one maternally incubate just to see the whole process first hand. I was wondering about the interaction of the babies and mother as they pip...

Thanks for all the info you've passed on your experiences... :Good Job:

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## ClarkT

You've really sparked my interest in doing this. 

I'm planning on next year being the first year for breeding. I've got a few questions.

-How soon after laying did you start to offer food?
-Would you only use mulch for the substrate, or would paper towels work?
-Do you periodically remove the moms to weigh them?

Good job on your clutches. Good luck with them, too.  :Good Job:

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## Quiet Tempest

> hi bro.. i intend to do maternally incubating too if i had a chance to breed my ball.. may i ask wat is inside a lay box? when shld i put the lay box in the main tank? wat size is suitable for a lay box? is lay box a must? sorry if i ask too much.. but is my first time.. better be safe than sorry..


Not a bro.   :Wink: 

When I made a laybox, it was a 31qt Sterilite tub and I lined it with about two inches of moistened sphagnum moss. 
Here's a link to my a thread on my first experience with maternal incubation.


> QT:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"I read somewhere that balls are one of the few snakes capable of altering their body heat and the reason being so that females can have more control over the temp of their eggs."_
> 
> 
> Actually, the exact opposite is true.  Ball pythons are one of the few snakes that cannot alter the temps or humidity of their environment for the time that they are "babysitting" their eggs.


I don't recall saying that? They can't alter temp through shivering like other pythons but they can leave their eggs to bask and return to brood after their body has warmed up. I have not observed this with my females, obviously, but I have read about it in an article on wild ball pythons. As for humidity, the females can alter the humidity within their coils by tightening or loosening them (I can see and feel light condensation on the female's belly and her eggs when I've peeked in to candle eggs and the rest of the tub is dry) and they can urinate within their coils if there is no moisture available to them. Thankfully, I have not noticed this with either of my females. At least, I don't think that I have. I would think that I would have noticed an odor and I haven't. 




> i can not wait to see ur results from the maternal incubation I'm going to take pics of lucy either sunday or monday and see if I cant get some candling pics for everyone


Thanks. Today makes Day 52 and 49 for these two clutches so I should have babies in the next few days. I would be surprised if I don't have pips in the older clutch tomorrow. 





> You've really sparked my interest in doing this. 
> 
> I'm planning on next year being the first year for breeding. I've got a few questions.
> 
> -How soon after laying did you start to offer food?
> -Would you only use mulch for the substrate, or would paper towels work?
> -Do you periodically remove the moms to weigh them?
> 
> Good job on your clutches. Good luck with them, too.


Last year I did this and my female refused the meal I offered a couple weeks into incubation. Because I had read so many threads that said they wouldn't eat anything during incubation, I assumed that it was to be expected and didn't offer food again until her eggs hatched. 

I offered a rat pup to both of my females last week because I had extras and figured I'd just see if they had any interest. One ignored hers but the other wolfed it down without any hesitation. I wish I had thought to offer food earlier on but I was still under the notion that they would just refuse whatever was offered. Another poster here, anatess, is maternally incubating and their female has apparently been eating every 10 days. I suppose it's all according to the female in question. From now on I will offer a small food item at least once every two weeks to my brooding females. 

I don't think substrate really matters that much. I just like the look of cypress mulch and it doesn't mold when it gets wet like some other beddings. Both of my females have pushed all of the cypress aside and are laying on the plastic directly over the heat tape. Because they are in tubs, the humidity doesn't drop very low. The lowest reading I've ever gotten in one of my tubs was 60%. 

I have only removed a female from her eggs once during this whole process and that was because one of her eggs had rolled out of her coils and I needed to place it back closer to its 'siblings' to make sure it would just tumble out again. With all of the eggs situated together, I put the female back in the tub and she gathered them all back up in her coils with no further incidents. I wouldn't remove a female from her clutch unless I felt it was really necessary. Too much stress could cause them to abandon the clutch.

I know a lot of keepers/breeders routinely weigh their females, but I don't. I'll probably weigh the babies when they hatch and I would also weigh any problem feeders I have to note any weight loss over a period of time, but I've never routinely weighed my snakes.



Thanks for the well wishes, guys!  I hope to have babies and baby pics soon!

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qinw (07-08-2010)

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## qinw

hi, any updates...?  :Smile:

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## Quiet Tempest

> hi, any updates...?


None yet..  They're on Days 55 and 52 now.

Not much to report.. Dewshine's eggs are smoother now than before. The "snowflaking" isn't as obvious now. Before, they had odd shaped bumps all over the eggs and now they're smooth. Not sure why, but it's neat nonetheless.

Dewshine's behavior has changed dramatically over the past couple of days, too. She had been very laid back with me checking in on her and the eggs, but now she's suddenly hissy and more aggressive. I'm hoping that this is an indicator that she's feeling changes within the eggs and it's nearly time. 

I had hoped that I would have babies this weekend, but it looks like that's not going to happen. This waiting is killing me!

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## Quiet Tempest

Yesterday the same egg that had rolled out of Dewshine's clutch twice before (several weeks ago) was sitting outside of her coils again and, I decided to snip that egg. I regretted doing so immediately afterwards because I had told myself all along that I would wait.. yesterday was lousy and I guess I just wanted to assure myself that it was okay and candling wasn't enough. I still don't get my reasoning. Anyway, I placed the slit egg back in the pile with its mother and she coiled around the group. Today makes Day 59 for Dewshine and Day 56 for Ailynn. I checked on them after I got up this morning and found this:















The egg I snipped yesterday was blowing bubbles through the slit last time I checked, but hasn't come out yet. I didn't get a good pic of that egg because the mom is partially covering it. She's going into a shed cycle, which might explain some of her recent moodiness, and I didn't want to disturb her any more than I needed to to get a few pics of what was going on in there. So far, all I've seen look like normal babies. 

I'll check on the moms again later today to see if I have any new pips or any babies out of the eggs.

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## ClarkT

Congrats so far! I can't wait to see how it turns out! I'm pretty convinced on trying this maternal incubation.  :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-15-2010)

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## stratus_020202

Man. A shed cycle and clutch of eggs. I bet she is cranky! Good luck with them, they are adorable!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-15-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Cranky is an understatement.  lol

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_stratus_020202_ (07-15-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

The egg I cut last night has a cute little head peeking out now.   :Smile: 





That's the egg that rolled out of the pile a few times.

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## stratus_020202

Correct me if I'm not seeing this right, but...... looks like the pastel daddy is the winner. Good thing that little rollout developed great. She's going to be a stunner  :Smile:

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## SnakeGirl3

YAY!  Congrats Sandy!  Can't wait to see more babies!

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## Quiet Tempest

> Correct me if I'm not seeing this right, but...... looks like the pastel daddy is the winner. Good thing that little rollout developed great. She's going to be a stunner


I was going to ask if anyone else thought that it might be a pastel baby. I can't get a good look at it yet.  lol    Just have to wait a little bit longer I guess.   :Wink:

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## bad-one

Huge congrats! Can't wait to see those babies once they come out !

It's really cool to see some threads shedding light on maternal incubation  :Good Job:

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## Quiet Tempest

All of Dewshine's eggs have pipped now but they all look like normals to me. I may change my mind when they leave their eggs, but I'm thinking 4 normal babies here.  :Smile: 







Ailynn currently has two eggs pipped and these also look like normals to me.   :Smile:

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## Quiet Tempest

I love this pic   <3

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## sarahlovesmiike

AWESOME! I can't wait to do this  :Smile:  I hope I get as good results as you got!

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## dr del

Congrats,  :Very Happy: 

That is a super-cute picture.  :Bowdown: 


dr del

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## Quiet Tempest

Thanks, guys!   :Smile:

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## Quiet Tempest

All babies out and accounted for..  Dewshine gave me 3.1 normals and Ailynn gave me 1.4 normals. I'm disappointed that there were no pastels among them, but it was only a slim chance anyway. I'm just happy with healthy babies.   :Smile: 


Kyriel, my het pied, finally laid her clutch sometime earlier today. There are four eggs beneath her so now starts another countdown to hatching and I'm HOPING that at least one of them is holding a pied baby.

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## DemmBalls

Congrats on the healthy babies and my fingers are crossed for your pied project!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-23-2010)

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## moravaguy

that is AWESOME!!!! way to go!!!! so happy to hear that! :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-23-2010)

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## anatess

I'm super jealous.  That pic with the babies' heads poking out between mom's coils are awesome!

Yeah, my maternal incubation is not as successful, but I think it is as successful as it could be for 60 days.  I continued to feed every 10 days and she didn't miss a meal and continued maternal incubation all the way to 60 days when she just all of a sudden stopped.  I moved the eggs to the emergency incubator and they're still not out of the egg at 68 days.  

I had my temps at 86 and humidity at 80 while maternally incubating.  But, my temp probe was underneath the egg box - in between the egg box and the sterilite container the whole thing was housed in.  The egg box is sitting directly on top of the heated section of the container without any bedding between the box and the floor of the container.  But, inside the box is about an inch of bedding which mama snake built a "crater" in while laying on her eggs.  Because of mama being in the egg box, I didn't risk putting the temp probe wire inside the box and potentially strangling her.  So, it could possibly be that the temperature inside the egg box was well under 86 which is probably the cause of the eggs hatching very late.  First timer, what can I say.

If I ever attempt breeding again (which I don't think I will in the near future if I have anything to say about it - hubby decided this breeding thing) I will for sure go with maternal incubation again but I'll be sure to get a temp gun and a helix-type thermostat instead of the el-cheapo reptitherm that I have.

I have to say, Quiet Tempest is my favorite breeder gal.  She inspired me with maternal incubation even if I had a cooler incubator as well.  I think it was a more educational experience for my kids and it fit perfectly with our holistic lifestyle.

QT, congratulations on another year of successful breeding.  I love looking at your pics!  I'm praying that you get a pied baby this time.  52 days waiting... man, that is a long time.

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-24-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

> I'm super jealous.  That pic with the babies' heads poking out between mom's coils are awesome!
> 
> Yeah, my maternal incubation is not as successful, but I think it is as successful as it could be for 60 days.  I continued to feed every 10 days and she didn't miss a meal and continued maternal incubation all the way to 60 days when she just all of a sudden stopped.  I moved the eggs to the emergency incubator and they're still not out of the egg at 68 days.  
> 
> I had my temps at 86 and humidity at 80 while maternally incubating.  But, my temp probe was underneath the egg box - in between the egg box and the sterilite container the whole thing was housed in.  The egg box is sitting directly on top of the heated section of the container without any bedding between the box and the floor of the container.  But, inside the box is about an inch of bedding which mama snake built a "crater" in while laying on her eggs.  Because of mama being in the egg box, I didn't risk putting the temp probe wire inside the box and potentially strangling her.  So, it could possibly be that the temperature inside the egg box was well under 86 which is probably the cause of the eggs hatching very late.  First timer, what can I say.
> 
> If I ever attempt breeding again (which I don't think I will in the near future if I have anything to say about it - hubby decided this breeding thing) I will for sure go with maternal incubation again but I'll be sure to get a temp gun and a helix-type thermostat instead of the el-cheapo reptitherm that I have.
> 
> I have to say, Quiet Tempest is my favorite breeder gal.  She inspired me with maternal incubation even if I had a cooler incubator as well.  I think it was a more educational experience for my kids and it fit perfectly with our holistic lifestyle.
> ...


That's really sweet of you to say.   :Love:  Thank you!

Maternal incubation is definitely a rewarding experience and I hope you enjoyed yours even if mom flaked out at the end. I think her leaving the eggs was a fluke and hopefully it won't happen this way if you maternally incubate clutches in the future. I think if you go this route next year this experience will help you be better prepared for anything/everything that goes along with it, too.   :Smile:   If the temp was low, it could very well be that it's just going to take a while longer for babies to emerge. Just keep an eye on them and don't let them dry out. 



I'm reeeeeeeally hoping for a pied of my own in this last clutch. Pieds are what got me interested in breeding balls in the first place and if I can produce one of my own I'll be ecstatic!  :Dancin' Banana:

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## Mephys

I just spent the last half hour reading this thread and looking at the videos.

I must say this is very informative, and the videos were awesome, thanks for sharing all this. Congratulations on the 2 clutches and I am crossing my fingers for you for at least 1 pied if not more!

I have been breeding mud turtles for a few months now, which is totally different, but I want to attempt to breed my BP's next year. I might give a try at maternal incubation with my normal female, it seems very natural and it's a very special experience that I would love to experiment.

Thanks for this thread  :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (07-24-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Thanks for the compliments.   :Smile:

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## Quiet Tempest

The pics are kinda lousy, but here we are on Day 10. I wish September would hurry up and get here.

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## anatess

> The pics are kinda lousy, but here we are on Day 10. I wish September would hurry up and get here.


Man, QT!  I don't know how you do that!  We tried that with the pastel I got and there was no way we could stick a flashlight in there without a good vicious tagging.

42 more days to go and looking good!  Keep the pics coming!

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## JEWSKIN

yay more babies! fingers crossed for ya

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## Quiet Tempest

My girls are just really laid back, I guess? I don't handle them alot, but I do check in on them fairly regularly and they're accustomed to me messing around in their tubs for spot cleaning and water changing. Me checking out their clutches is just one more nuisance to put up with, I guess.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  The only one that gave me any problems was my older female, Dewshine, and that was because she was going into a shed cycle and I didn't realize it.  :Embarassed:   She would puff up and hiss so loudly that I jumped a few times when candling her eggs a week or so before they actually started pipping. Poor thing had to deal with being deep in blue while her clutch was hatching out.  lol

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## Quiet Tempest

Here's a candling shot of each egg.  Currently on day 20.











I tried to get video but the quality was really lousy. I can't figure out what settings I was using on the other candling videos and everything is so blurry that it would just give you a headache to watch it. I only caught a glimpse of one baby moving while I was candling, too. It fluttered just momentarily and then stayed so low in the egg that I really couldn't see anything else besides its outline. *sigh*  I'll try again in another week or so and hopefully catch them at a more active point during the day.   :Wink:  


Can someone please remind me at what point during incubation does pattern begin to develop?

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## llovelace

Day 35, I believe I read that on another post

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_Quiet Tempest_ (08-12-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

> Day 35, I believe I read that on another post


Thanks!  I know I'm going to be anxiously looking for possible pieds when candling this clutch.   :Razz:

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## SansCera

> Can someone please remind me at what point during incubation does pattern begin to develop?


Sweet pics  :Good Job: 

Here is day 30ish  :Nerd:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (08-12-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Thanks much!  Now I'm going to be straining even harder to see what's in there ten days from now.  lol

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## SansCera

You will be able to tell pieds for sure by the sudden void of pattern and or erratic pattern. You need to get pretty low on the egg in the beginning to see the snake.

How fun  :Clap:

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## Quiet Tempest

Between the blurred images and Kyriel sticking her head into almost every video clip I got last night, it's really hard to say what's what...  I don't want to get my hopes up, but I think I saw what looked like possible pied patterns in a couple of the eggs. Of course, they may have been laying belly up and I just didn't see the dark areas of pattern. It's still early yet and I don't want to go counting my babies before they've hatched just to be disappointed later. I'll check again in another week, I guess, and see if things are any easier to see under the light.

I wish it was September already.  :Rolleyes2: 


http://www.youtube.com/v/CmbetTk0I_I


http://www.youtube.com/v/nH_k1zJoIZY


http://www.youtube.com/v/hhZj70-ewSg


* I can't figure out how to embed video now..

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## dr del

Hi,

We added a little button to the right of the insert image button and it works the same way by creating a pop up window to put your link into when you click it.

It looks like this: 


dr del

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_Quiet Tempest_ (08-24-2010)

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## John1982

Very cool stuff, I hope you get your pied!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (08-24-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

I tried that before. It gave the [video] tags but still wasn't working for me.  I found my mistake, though. I didn't have the correct url for the videos. Thanks, Dr Del!

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## bokuza

This thread is entirely exhilarating! I have been looking for detailed logs of maternal incubation for quite some time. I entirely agree with you, I had watched a female have her clutch of 4 removed and the sheer panic that ensued tugged on my heart strings. Why take the eggs away from a committed mother? Besides watching and understanding the natural maternal incubation of the python you plan to breed and continue to breed (if you choose to commit to ball pythons) should be the first and for most step before creation of your own incubator and mass breeding. At least this is in my current approach...Green behind the ears I have purchased my first female cinny a few days ago too~ My plan is to pair her with my high gold male. I've bookmarked this thread for future reference. Would you mind if I asked a few questions though? 

Currently your BPs are housed in a rack system, correct? Forgive me if this has been asked but what size are your tubs? Besides the cypress mulch and the water bowl there isn't anything else in the tubs? It seems simple. My tubs seem to have a failing humidity point however. I must mist it down several times a day to keep it up, I think it's possible that the lids I use are not tight enough to trap humidity. Are you using a DIY tub system? If not, what is it?

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-18-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

> This thread is entirely exhilarating! I have been looking for detailed logs of maternal incubation for quite some time. I entirely agree with you, I had watched a female have her clutch of 4 removed and the sheer panic that ensued tugged on my heart strings. Why take the eggs away from a committed mother? Besides watching and understanding the natural maternal incubation of the python you plan to breed and continue to breed (if you choose to commit to ball pythons) should be the first and for most step before creation of your own incubator and mass breeding. At least this is in my current approach...Green behind the ears I have purchased my first female cinny a few days ago too~ My plan is to pair her with my high gold male. I've bookmarked this thread for future reference. Would you mind if I asked a few questions though? 
> 
> Currently your BPs are housed in a rack system, correct? Forgive me if this has been asked but what size are your tubs? Besides the cypress mulch and the water bowl there isn't anything else in the tubs? It seems simple. My tubs seem to have a failing humidity point however. I must mist it down several times a day to keep it up, I think it's possible that the lids I use are not tight enough to trap humidity. Are you using a DIY tub system? If not, what is it?


I don't mind at all.

Last year I kept my female in a 40g breeder tank but I've always had issues with keeping humidity up in glass cages so I gave her a lay box (31qt sterilite tub lined with sphagnum moss and hole cut in the lid for easy entry and exit for the female). Here's a link to last year's clutch. 

This year, the majority of my snakes are kept in either 32qt or 41qt sterilite brand tubs, depending on their size. There are hide boxes for juvenile snakes but none for the older ones - just the substrate (I use cypress mulch, shredded aspen, or sanichips.. whatever is readily available at the moment, really) and water bowl in those tubs. I used a wood burning wand to burn holes along the front and sides of the tubs for ventilation and because of a miscalculation when we were building our rack, the tubs must be shelved with lids on. It's a minor inconvenience when I need to get into a tub to refill water, feed, or otherwise check in on snakes but I think humidity is better trapped with lidded tubs so I'm not going to complain. The humidity in my tubs seems to linger around 70-80%. The snakes seem to do well in either living arrangement so long as the humidity isn't dropping below 60%, but I think those in the tubs are probably more comfortable - they always have complete sheds and their skin feels supple rather than dry/tough like some of the snakes in the glass enclosures.

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## Quiet Tempest

The eggs are starting to dimple already so it makes candling a little more difficult.. The quality isn't much better, but I was hoping to get some opinions on these. Kyriel didn't really want to budge so that I could get any worthwhile clips of the others, but I did get clips of two of the eggs..  Can I get your opinions? It's hard for me to make much out of it. I would really, really like to see at least one pied baby come out of one of these eggs but I'm not going to hold my breath.

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## KingPythons

> This thread is entirely exhilarating! I have been looking for detailed logs of maternal incubation for quite some time. I entirely agree with you, I had watched a female have her clutch of 4 removed and the sheer panic that ensued tugged on my heart strings. Why take the eggs away from a committed mother? Besides watching and understanding the natural maternal incubation of the python you plan to breed and continue to breed (if you choose to commit to ball pythons) should be the first and for most step before creation of your own incubator and mass breeding. At least this is in my current approach...Green behind the ears I have purchased my first female cinny a few days ago too~ My plan is to pair her with my high gold male. I've bookmarked this thread for future reference. Would you mind if I asked a few questions though? 
> 
> Currently your BPs are housed in a rack system, correct? Forgive me if this has been asked but what size are your tubs? Besides the cypress mulch and the water bowl there isn't anything else in the tubs? It seems simple. My tubs seem to have a failing humidity point however. I must mist it down several times a day to keep it up, I think it's possible that the lids I use are not tight enough to trap humidity. Are you using a DIY tub system? If not, what is it?


 About the humidity, as long as you have a bowl in there the humidity around the bowl she be good enuff so you might want to watch out. 

As for QT keep up the good work and thanks for all your advice

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-05-2010)

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## DemmBalls

Awesome thread!  Good luck with the final 2 weeks!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-05-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Still no pipping but I got a new pic of her with her clutch tonight.


Kyriel on Day 54

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## zina10

any updates ? I find this fascinating  :Smile:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-18-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Nope, no pips yet. I candled them last night and the babies are filling the eggs up to the point that I can't really tell what I'm looking at now. I keep pestering the mother at least once a day to check for slits in the eggs but nothing yet.

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## vpjimmyd

Found this thread for the first time today - just in time for the climactic ending!

I'll be breeding my het pieds for the first time next month, so I know a little bit of the anticipation you're feeling. Here's hoping you've got pieds in there!  :Wink: 

Exciting stuff! Thanks for sharing.  :Smile:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-18-2010)

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## zues

Hopefully you have been to busy counting and sexing pieds to update this thread.

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## Quiet Tempest

I couldn't wait any longer. I snipped a little flap on each egg and peeked. I think all four are normals judging from the little I could see of them.  :Sad:   Lame...  But they're all 66% poss. het pieds. I'll post pics when they actually start emerging from the eggs on their own.

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## Nimitz87

aww oh well...

Chad

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-19-2010)

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## shelliebear

:Sad: 
I wish I had a pied. I would ship it to you ASAP. ;-;
I'm so sorry. Hopefully one turns out to have a little white, or maybe if you breed the this generation of 66% hets you'll get a pied next time.  :Embarassed: 
Sorry.  :Sad:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-19-2010)

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## DemmBalls

> I couldn't wait any longer. I snipped a little flap on each egg and peeked. I think all four are normals judging from the little I could see of them.   Lame...  But they're all 66% poss. het pieds. I'll post pics when they actually start emerging from the eggs on their own.


That's a bummer.  Will she be ready to go again this coming season or does the maternal incubation take to much out of them?  Either way...just keep trying and hopefully all of these babies make it out healthy!

I'm actually going to pick up a pair of Het pieds in a few hours!  Hopefully I'll hit on pieds in a few years!

Good luck in the future with all of your projects!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-19-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

Thanks, guys. I haven't checked back in on the eggs yet this morning but if one turned out to be a really low white pied that would be great. Kyriel is not thrilled with the egg goo that spilled after recoiling her eggs and I'm giving her some time to readjust to this new element.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

A friend of mine is going to loan me her pied male for the upcoming season after Kyriel regains some more weight so I should have some better odds next year. She's been feeding fairly well while incubating so she should be able to breed again the season. I'll just see how it goes.

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## zues

Hate to be the one to bring it up but where did you hets come from? Any chance you got taken?

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## Quiet Tempest

Both originated from Jason Feagans in Kentucky but were purchased at different times. Both are supposed to share the same pied father. I don't think I was taken because Jason seems to be a reputable guy according to everyone I've spoken with who has dealt with them. 

Hopefully this was just a case of lousy odds. I'll breed the female again when she's ready and hopefully things will pan out better. If I pair her with my friend's pied and she still only throws normals, I'll be a bit perturbed.

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## PghBall

Hope you find that low white pied among them!

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-19-2010)

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## h4y4sh1

Thank you very much Quiet Tempest for this thread. I decided to maternally incubate my first ever clutch. It was a success with 100% hatch rate.

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-22-2010)

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## h4y4sh1

Oh and I forgot to add. She refused feeding during the incubation, but 4 days after the baby hatched, Mummy bee is already munching down mouse  :Smile:

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## Quiet Tempest

What did you try offering her? The first year I did this, I offered my female a small rat and it was refused and I didn't offer her anything else until the eggs hatched. This year the same female took weanling rats without any hesitation.   :Smile:   Scaling back in size definitely makes a difference. 

Congrats on the successful clutch! 

I'm still waiting for my latest four to leave their eggs. They're poking noses out now but don't seem to want to leave their eggs at all.

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## Quiet Tempest

Well, today I've got little heads peeking out of the eggs. Some with brand new slits so I guess today (day 62) would have been their hatch date had I not cut the eggs.  :Wink:

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_shelliebear_ (09-22-2010)

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## jfreels

Awesome!

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## ThePaganJew

The faces are adorable, but the wait to see the white is killing me and I only found this thread today! I can't imagine how you feel lol.

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## anatess

Ooooohhhh!  Is that a little teensy white on the bottom egg????

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## MikeV

> Ooooohhhh!  Is that a little teensy white on the bottom egg????


I see that too  :Surprised:   :Surprised:   :Surprised:   :Surprised:

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## shelliebear

I see some white in there!  :Very Happy:  Come on, one of them has to be a pied, or they all had better be hets XD
Hurry up, little baby snakes! We want to see you!  :Very Happy: 
(adorable mom and baby photos though, NEW DESKTOP BACKGROUND!)

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## Quiet Tempest

I see it, too, but it's just belly. Those bellies are so deceptive!  lol

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## shelliebear

> I see it, too, but it's just belly. Those bellies are so deceptive!  lol


No! Don't say that.  :Sad:  
 :Sad:  :Sad:

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## h4y4sh1

> What did you try offering her? The first year I did this, I offered my female a small rat and it was refused and I didn't offer her anything else until the eggs hatched. This year the same female took weanling rats without any hesitation.    Scaling back in size definitely makes a difference. 
> 
> Congrats on the successful clutch! 
> 
> I'm still waiting for my latest four to leave their eggs. They're poking noses out now but don't seem to want to leave their eggs at all.


I offered her mice. she's never been a rat eater.
I hope that white in the photo is not of the belly  :Smile:

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## Quiet Tempest

All but one have come out.   :Smile:    No pieds, but all of the babies have beautiful belly markers. I haven't sexed them yet. I'll wait until after their first shed to get around to that. All of them appear to be perfectly healthy but one does have a tiny kink at the very tip of its tail. It shouldn't hinder it in any way, but it's worth noting.

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## ThePaganJew

Congrats on your new babies! May they all be good eaters and give you little trouble  :Good Job:

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_Quiet Tempest_ (09-24-2010)

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## Quiet Tempest

They're all out now.   :Smile: 


 






I popped them while putting down some clean paper towel and I believe they are all girls. I'll try again after they've shed and probe any questionables. 

These were so stubborn about leaving their eggs. I hope they're not so stubborn when it comes to starting feeding.

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