# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics >  Proof on the Spider gene. OWAL take a look

## T&C Exotics

Ok so here are the end results of every breeding from the start of the Spider x Spider breedings. 
Step one was from Spider to Spider with a total of 194 offspring and 153 of them being Spider the rest 
being normal which gives us 78% spiders and 22% normals. All were held back from this.

Next is the Spider offspring bred to normals there were a total of 1097 eggs laid that were Spider to normal.
Of those eggs there were 578 were spiders and all the rest were normal which leaves a ratio of 52% spiders and the gender 
of them was pretty much split 50/50 as normal. So there is no fatal gene at play and no super spider or anything like that.

There is one thing that did happen that is note worthy. One of the normal female offspring from the original breedings 
was bred to a pastel this year and I hatched out a bumble bee. She was a virgin girl so something odd is going on there and 
I will replicate the breeding next year to see if it happens again. In the same clutch I had 2 pastels and one spider as well
 as 1 normal.

So there you have it. Those are the end results. Let me know what you think.

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Badgemash (09-21-2012),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (07-30-2013),_Danounet_ (08-01-2013),_dart_ (08-02-2013),_Don_ (09-19-2012),_don15681_ (07-30-2013),_Flikky_ (07-30-2013),_glk832_ (09-19-2012),_Jason Bowden_ (09-28-2012),mangopixie (09-20-2012),_python_addict_ (09-28-2012),RaltsXIV (09-18-2012),_whispersinmyhead_ (06-09-2013)

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## mario16

So a normal hatch from another gene could carry that gene and still look normal

Sent from my LG-MS910 using Tapatalk 2

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## OhhWatALoser

wow I didn't know your numbers were so extensive, so if im reading it correctly, every single one of the 153 spider offspring from the spider x spider pairing was bred to see if they were homozygous? Also I saw a thread that claimed to produce an all white snake that died after hatching from a spider x spider pairing, you never saw anything like this?

the "normal" making spiders is quite interesting also, few explanations that come to mind right away. (can we get a picture of her for the heck of it?)
simple one would be she is a spider that pattern resembles normalish quailties (im sure you thought of it already), 
she could be a paradox, having spider reproductive organs, 
she is a spider, but also has a recessive trait that dominants over it, making her look normal
epigenetics is at play and the expression on the spider gene is turned down, or even off.

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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (07-30-2013)

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## Flikky

This is very interesting.. Picture of the 'Normal' Spider please?

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## BFE Pets

Sounds like a good trial but I would like to know.... Out of the spider x spider pairings how many eggs went bad, slugs laid, and how many doa. I feel that info is pertinent also. And with that many spiders produced I would imagine that would explain the huge price drop this year on them lol

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MarkS (02-24-2014),snakesRkewl (09-18-2012),_WingedWolfPsion_ (09-18-2012)

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## meowmeowkazoo

> she is a spider, but also has a recessive trait that dominants over it, making her look normal


Not possible. Spider is a dominant gene. A recessive gene can't dominate a dominant gene.

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## T&C Exotics

H.o.F.R. there were 3 eggs that went bad out of the spider x spider pairings and one slug and there were zero that died soon after birth or in the egg. All the babies that hatched have bred. 

As for the requests for pics I will need to get some of mom to post. There were no white snakes at all and yes every single offspring from the spider x spider breedings were kept and bred. I am sure she is some kind of paradox but she shows no sign of spider at all. Normal eyes and pattern. She is a little brighter than average but still well within the spectrum of normal. Like I said I will get pics up as soon as I can take some.

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_BFE Pets_ (09-18-2012)

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## meowmeowkazoo

I would also like to see pictures of the bee offspring.

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## Tfpets

It just seems to me that with those kinds of numbers, strange things are going to happen! Not everything in living creatures is "by the book". We like to think we have a grasp on every possibility, but overall we only know what "should" happen. All of the wild caught morphs had to come from something that went wacky somewhere!

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## Rawbbeh

> I would also like to see pictures of the bee offspring.


Me too...how odd!?!

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## JaGv



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_PorcelainxDoll_ (09-18-2012)

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## T&C Exotics

Ok here are pics. First one is of mom and the other one is 3 of the babies. The babies are from left to right normal, bee, spider.






please forgive me if the pics don't post I suck at posting pics.

- - - Updated - - -

As you can see she is a little bright and reduced pattern but nothing special.

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Badgemash (09-21-2012),_Danounet_ (08-01-2013),_loonunit_ (09-18-2012)

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## RandyRemington

Thanks for the HUGE amount of work to raise up and breed that many animals.

The only explanation I can think of is that there is something we don't understand about ball python reproduction such that the homozygous spiders never get matched up with a follicle.  Even that would require you had really good odds to get 78% spiders rather than 66%.  I don't know...

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## gsarchie

Interesting.  Did any of the spider X normal offspring produce clutches that were 100% spider?  If not then there must be some prezygotic barrier between a spider sperm and egg, leaving the egg there waiting until a normal, or at least non-spider, sperm comes along and fertilizes it.

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_decensored_ (09-21-2012)

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## Riv

Ive been waiting for someone to put this much work into the Spider x Spider theories. Thanks for posting. Im not really great with genetics, so please be nice, but is it at all possible that the homozygous form of spider is simply not visual? or is that ridiculous?

-Riveran

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_decensored_ (09-21-2012),vankmen. (07-31-2013)

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## WingedWolfPsion

The most puzzling aspect of this is the 78% spider result from spider X spider breedings.  It suggests that the Homozygous spiders are there--you would expect, 50% spider, 25% homo spider, and 25% normal, right?  You get 78% spider, and you figure 1/3 of those must surely be homozygous.  But, they didn't prove to be homozygous in breedings.

How are what should be homozygous spiders winding up with a normal gene???

It's almost as though there's no pair there--just either the spider gene is present, or the normal gene is present, but there's no second gene to make a pair.  Is that possible?

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## Seth702

Is it possible mom is a spider. The way her pattern looks you can almost see spider in between the banding. You can see it in the middle baby as well. The blushing seems like it make wider spider markings then usual, apearing much more normal like?

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## T&C Exotics

My theory still stands that there is something going on with the spiders that only allows one spider gene to be present in one animal. There has to be some reason that no offspring from the spider x spider breedings produced 100% spiders. Maybe it is linked to the wobble... Think about it the wobble exists in every spider and that would have to be a genetic defect which is just on the surface. I am no genetics expert but maybe nothing can attach to the same locus as the spider gene leaving the gene incomplete. An example would be with the pastel, a pastel on the location in the DNA strand has one pastel gene and one normal gene, the spider may only have the one spider gene and no normal gene so in offspring it passes spider or nothing . It makes sense to me because of the wobble being present in all spiders which would indicate some sort of genetic fault that causes it. Just a thought I could be way off base and don't know if that is even possible. But one thing is for sure in my eyes there is no super spider at all and it is NOT lethal to do the breedings of spider x spider. Now can we put those 2 things to rest and cover possibilities of what could be going on with the spider gene that causes it to have the wobble and not have a super form? Also how do we classify this gene now? It can not be dominant, co-dominant, or recessive so what could it be now?

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> Is it possible mom is a spider. The way her pattern looks you can almost see spider in between the banding. You can see it in the middle baby as well. The blushing seems like it make wider spider markings then usual, apearing much more normal like?


The middle baby is a bee.................................. The mom is just a reduced pattern normal there are a ton of them all over this forum.............

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## WingedWolfPsion

If there is only one copy of the gene present in the snake's genome instead of 2, then the gene could still be called incomplete dominant, even though there's no way to create a super form, I would think.

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## MisterKyte

I'm curious because I've always been told that spiderxspider breedings resulted in spiders that had severe head wobbles so my question to you is did you notice any offspring with really bad wobbles? 

As for that "Normal" that is producing spiders, I can't wait to see you reproduce that pairing! That sounds really amazing and is definately something to explore some more. It kind of reminds me of the Hidden gene Womas and the Hidden Gene Lessers that NERD produced way back when. Do you think this girl could be doing a similar thing but she just throws spiders instead? Have any plans to test the offspring as well?

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## reptileexperts

> Not possible. Spider is a dominant gene. A recessive gene can't dominate a dominant gene.


Dominate just means that when two genes are present on the same Loci the dominate one will show the phenotype. . . if a recessive gene was at a different loci it could conceal a dominate gene / be expressed think albino spider . . . So yes a recessive gene CAN dominate a dominant gene at a differnet loci for a different phenotypic (visual) result.

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OhhWatALoser (09-18-2012)

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## OhhWatALoser

> My theory still stands that there is something going on with the spiders that only allows one spider gene to be present in one animal. There has to be some reason that no offspring from the spider x spider breedings produced 100% spiders. Maybe it is linked to the wobble... Think about it the wobble exists in every spider and that would have to be a genetic defect which is just on the surface. I am no genetics expert but maybe nothing can attach to the same locus as the spider gene leaving the gene incomplete. An example would be with the pastel, a pastel on the location in the DNA strand has one pastel gene and one normal gene, the spider may only have the one spider gene and no normal gene so in offspring it passes spider or nothing . It makes sense to me because of the wobble being present in all spiders which would indicate some sort of genetic fault that causes it. Just a thought I could be way off base and don't know if that is even possible. But one thing is for sure in my eyes there is no super spider at all and it is NOT lethal to do the breedings of spider x spider. Now can we put those 2 things to rest and cover possibilities of what could be going on with the spider gene that causes it to have the wobble and not have a super form? Also how do we classify this gene now? It can not be dominant, co-dominant, or recessive so what could it be now?





> The most puzzling aspect of this is the 78% spider result from spider X spider breedings.  It suggests that the Homozygous spiders are there--you would expect, 50% spider, 25% homo spider, and 25% normal, right?  You get 78% spider, and you figure 1/3 of those must surely be homozygous.  But, they didn't prove to be homozygous in breedings.
> 
> How are what should be homozygous spiders winding up with a normal gene???
> 
> It's almost as though there's no pair there--just either the spider gene is present, or the normal gene is present, but there's no second gene to make a pair.  Is that possible?





> If there is only one copy of the gene present in the snake's genome instead of 2, then the gene could still be called incomplete dominant, even though there's no way to create a super form, I would think.


I don't think it would have a classification we are used to, dominant, co-dom/in-com dom, and recessive are all based off of the phenotype in heterozygous and homozygous form. If there is only one copy of the gene present in the genome, i think it would be called haploid (just went googling for the term 2 minutes ago). someone please correct me if there is a better term.

Either that or we have a mystery force at work saying only one spider at a time, but I searched for something related to this before and came up empty handed. 

say spider and spider get pair up and one spider gene for unknown reason is able to remove the other. we are left with a spider and empty space (yes back to he null theory). it would still pass the spider gene, or nothing and since we don't know of any other gene on the the spider locus, the empty spot would also act as normal, since it can only be paired up with a normal or spider gene. so you would still get the 75% 25% odds, and everything looking typical on the outside. I guess my point is, we don't need a normal gene present.

I still can't figure out if it is a haploid situation, how could it be inherited with the 75% odds? I mean the W chromosome in snakes is haploid, but that what makes them female and we know its not sex linked and we would be looking at 50% odds. If it's not paired with something else like Z and W and is a stand alone thing, I would assume breeding spider to spider would make 100% odds. I cant really think of a way to come up with the 75%.

I need to do more reading., those are my thoughts for now

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## JLC

This is one of the most impressive efforts I've ever run across, to try and prove/disprove some of the genetic theories we play with.  I really think this experiment should be properly documented and written up.  Not that I think it qualifies as some kind of peer-reviewable scientific experiment (I suppose it might, I have no idea how you actually went about it) but even an informal, but well-written document, with all the relevant data, and all the questions answered in one place, could be invaluable to current and future ball python enthusiasts.  

If you'd like help putting something like that together, I'd be happy to partner up with you and work on it.  Shoot me a PM, if interested.

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Badgemash (09-21-2012),_decensored_ (09-21-2012),_Don_ (09-19-2012),_Flikky_ (09-18-2012),_loonunit_ (09-18-2012),Pickenprod (08-05-2013)

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## eatgoodfood

> This is one of the most impressive efforts I've ever run across, to try and prove/disprove some of the genetic theories we play with.  I really think this experiment should be properly documented and written up.  Not that I think it qualifies as some kind of peer-reviewable scientific experiment (I suppose it might, I have no idea how you actually went about it) but even an informal, but well-written document, with all the relevant data, and all the questions answered in one place, could be invaluable to current and future ball python enthusiasts.  
> 
> If you'd like help putting something like that together, I'd be happy to partner up with you and work on it.  Shoot me a PM, if interested.


I agree 100% with this.  I would like to see all the data from all the pairings.  Im sure others would as well so they can analyze it and make their own interpretations on the data.

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## Dragoon

> Not possible. Spider is a dominant gene. A recessive gene can't dominate a dominant gene.


you read too much into the meaning of dominant, look at a spider super mojave.  the post you quoted may be iffy but so is your reply, it isn't dominating if it is just masking

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## snakesRkewl

> The most puzzling aspect of this is the 78% spider result from spider X spider breedings.  It suggests that the Homozygous spiders are there--you would expect, 50% spider, 25% homo spider, and 25% normal, right?


Dom X Dom = 75% dom, why is 78% unusual?

Dominant traits in rats work like this also, why would it be different in snakes?

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## mechnut450

i can only guess at the  ideal of 2000 snacks being ket/raise.  that a lot of   rodents and time(figure 3 yerars  for females) ( i understand most are  from this year breeding.  but still that a  lot of work. effort, resources put out.  great job man
 ( now i will take several female spider of breedig weight   to see if  crossing them to other morphs  produce higher spider  gene carring offspring lol.)

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## OhhWatALoser

> Dom X Dom = 75% dom, why is 78% unusual?
> 
> Dominant traits in rats work like this also, why would it be different in snakes?


referring to purely phenotype you are correct.

how ever genetically 25% homozygous dom, 50% heterozygous dom, 25% Wild type is the expected outcome. We did not see evidence of a homozygous spider, so something else is going on.

referring to my first comment, to dominate over something just referrers to the phenotype compared to to something else. We classify morphs based off their dominance comparing them to wild type. Albino is recessive compared to wild type, pastel is incomplete dom compared to wild type, pinstripe is dominant compared to wild type. I was just throwing out theories on how it could happen, hence a recessive trait could dominate over the spider and make it look normal. Iffy... sure, all it is is just theory.

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## loonunit

Seriously, this was an insane project, and an insane # of spiders. And by "insane" I mean "totally awesome". 

And that bee from a normal x pastel pairing is just amazing. Yeah, I see the spider-y pattern in her mid-section... but I would never call her a spider. I mean, just compare her pattern to her offspring. 

The fact that it's a bumblebee indicates the pastel HAS to be the sire---she couldn't have retained sperm from a prior breeding the previous year and produced a mixed-sired clutch. I can't wait to see if you can replicate it next year.

Far out.

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Badgemash (09-21-2012)

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## OhhWatALoser

ok another idea.

what if the spider lays on an extra chromosome? 50% chance of passing the extra chromosome, if a spider x spider breeding occurs you have a 75% chance of getting the extra chromosome and no way of getting a homozygous. input?

also since people above pointed out, the "normal" does have pretty spiderish parts to her, paradox seems like most likely case. cool animal regardless

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## WingedWolfPsion

I thought of that too, but then, why couldn't both snakes pass on the extra chromosome?  (I figured out why my own idea wouldn't work).  So, it still wouldn't cause this.

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## OhhWatALoser

> I thought of that too, but then, why couldn't both snakes pass on the extra chromosome?  (I figured out why my own idea wouldn't work).  So, it still wouldn't cause this.


not enough material to make it?

I just read something that said people with the extra chromosome sometimes don't pass it fully due to not having enough material... i donno? lol

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## h00blah

> This is one of the most impressive efforts I've ever run across, to try and prove/disprove some of the genetic theories we play with.  I really think this experiment should be properly documented and written up.  Not that I think it qualifies as some kind of peer-reviewable scientific experiment (I suppose it might, I have no idea how you actually went about it) but even an informal, but well-written document, with all the relevant data, and all the questions answered in one place, could be invaluable to current and future ball python enthusiasts.  
> 
> If you'd like help putting something like that together, I'd be happy to partner up with you and work on it.  Shoot me a PM, if interested.


Yes! This kind of research should be a sticky  :Good Job: . Whatever document you guys come up with, I'm excited to read it.

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## reptileexperts

Spider as being inherited as an extra chromosomal disorder would actually make perfect since, and could easily explain the presence of the neurological issues given better as well (spider wobble). The reason that you couldn't transfer two copies of the chromosome is perhaps it only exists in a single chromotid state, and when two copies of the chromosone present itself one just deteriates... It would then agree with the 75% odds, and not the 67% odds expected if it was lethal in its "super form". I think this is probably the best understanding we can make of it, and if a geneticist put a LITTLE bit of work on it, could easily be proven IMO.

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## OhhWatALoser

I am focusing mostly on down syndrome sites, since its about the only thing that seems to have anything close to the data i'm looking for. down syndrome is cause by having an extra chromosome 21. While there seems to be very conflicting numbers, many of them say, that if the parent has down syndrome, you basically have a 50% chance of passing it and if both parents have it, the chances are even higher (75% would make sense). what I still fail to find is why that 2nd extra chromosome doesn't get passed. I keep reading basically that it doesn't just don't know why.

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## reptileexperts

If you think of it like down syndrome, the extra chromosome is linked onto the 21 chromosme pair making it have 3 chromotids instead of 2. If there is one already being passed on, the chances of hitting all 4 together is extremely unlikely and the 4th copy would like deteriate. I studied downsyndrom scans, and even had to do "mock diagnoses" in my coursework at the univeristy based on this stuff, and the inheritance patterns of people with down syndrome. . . The difference is, downsyndrom is a random occurance, and not a gene that is continually being passed on. It's a disorder, that becomes heritable.

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## OhhWatALoser

> and the 4th copy would like deteriate.


I just couldn't find that bit of information

it seems not much has gone into when 2 people with extra chromosomes reproduce what happens, but from everything I could find, I think we got a descent theory.

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## reptileexperts

You know, as much as I'd love to have two humans with Downs unite and see what their offsprings DNA looks like, It's a strong grey area in our knowledge of the matter since Human reproduction is not so simple to study in situations like this. Now, if someone were to confirm spider being an extra chromosome disorder, they could use spider BP as a case study in a medical field to exam the possible side effects of human reproduction with extra chromosomes. . . just a thought

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Here we go - trisomy in chromotids will self heal themsevles be deletion of the extra chromosome in MANY cases by either transfering 100% of the single parental chromotid, or breaking the bond and forming a new bond with the other parent chromotid to form a natural bond. . . . case study out of the UK, I'll see if I can find the paper, just found a quote from it,.

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## .G&S Royal pythons.

This is why the hobby is so exciting,  because no matter how much back and forth goes on about genetics, YOU NEVER KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE OUTCOME OF ANY CLUTCH WILL BE, there will always be a chance for something "weird" to pop up. Great work though.

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## RandyRemington

Wow, very cool work everyone!  Especially the OP for raising up so many snakes to get the data to spawn this new theory (lethal seemed much more likely) AND proving a chimera along the way.

I swear I remember a post from Kevin of NERD referring to spiders as "special" snakes.  I know my one spider combo hold back this year is a unique eating machine and my favorite.

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## Sarah Wales

> This is one of the most impressive efforts I've ever run across, to try and prove/disprove some of the genetic theories we play with.  I really think this experiment should be properly documented and written up.  Not that I think it qualifies as some kind of peer-reviewable scientific experiment (I suppose it might, I have no idea how you actually went about it) but even an informal, but well-written document, with all the relevant data, and all the questions answered in one place, could be invaluable to current and future ball python enthusiasts.



It would be an amazing read for sure and there are several of us where I am who would love to read it.

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## critta

In your first Spider x Spider cross what was the sex ratio of the offspring exhibiting the Spider trait from that initial cross? Was the spider offspring mostly male or female or equal numbers? Did you get about 100 males exhibiting spider or equal numbers of 75 males and 75 females exhibiting spider? Conversely, was the normal offspring mostly male or female or equal numbers?

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## T&C Exotics

> In your first Spider x Spider cross what was the sex ratio of the offspring exhibiting the Spider trait from that initial cross? Was the spider offspring mostly male or female or equal numbers? Did you get about 100 males exhibiting spider or equal numbers of 75 males and 75 females exhibiting spider? Conversely, was the normal offspring mostly male or female or equal numbers?



All through out the breedings from beginning to the end the sex ratio was pretty much 50/50 per clutch. some a few more males some a few more females.

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## meowmeowkazoo

> you read too much into the meaning of dominant, look at a spider super mojave.  the post you quoted may be iffy but so is your reply, it isn't dominating if it is just masking


I don't see how a super Mojave spider is a relevant example here. Mojave is an incomplete dominant, not a recessive. What do you mean by "it isn't dominating if it is just masking"?

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> Dominate just means that when two genes are present on the same Loci the dominate one will show the phenotype. . . if a recessive gene was at a different loci it could conceal a dominate gene / be expressed think albino spider . . . So yes a recessive gene CAN dominate a dominant gene at a differnet loci for a different phenotypic (visual) result.


A recessive gene being expressed (such as an albino spider) is not the same thing as a recessive gene completely masking a dominant gene, which is not possible.

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And I'm sorry to be the only nay-sayer here, but I just can't take this at face value. A normal laying eggs containing spider and bumblebee hatchlings? This is really a bit too far-fetched. I have no idea who tattlife2001 is. He could be some random person who decided to troll the ball python community by posting fake breeding results.

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_seeya205_ (09-21-2012)

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## OhhWatALoser

> I don't see how a super Mojave spider is a relevant example here. Mojave is an incomplete dominant, not a recessive. What do you mean by "it isn't dominating if it is just masking"?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> A recessive gene being expressed (such as an albino spider) is not the same thing as a recessive gene completely masking a dominant gene, which is not possible.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


how could it not be possible for a recessive gene to mask a dominant one? if the phenotype of the dominant isnt shown because of the recessive phenotype.... recessive albinism masks over dominant traits in other species, why not snakes? it was just an idea and not even likely, dont worry about it.

on the other hand paradoxs pop up quite a bit and the mom even looks like a paradox, i dont see any reason to doubt. everything (besides the more than likely paradox) reported falls right in line with what kevin has been saying all along. while it would if been nice to get data like this from him a long time ago... he still said not lethal and no super.

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## Rat160

> Interesting.  Did any of the spider X normal offspring produce clutches that were 100% spider?  If not then there must be some prezygotic barrier between a spider sperm and egg, leaving the egg there waiting until a normal, or at least non-spider, sperm comes along and fertilizes it.


Was this ever answered? I didnt see it.

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## interloc

I read this whole thread and the Super Mojave thing got me thinking. Woma and Spider look very close, and in some instances it would take a well trained eye to tell them apart. I havent seen or heard of too many woma x spider breedings (probly cause the cross wouldn't be to extravagant) but a thought came to my mind. We all know that woma x woma makes a fail for a snake. A sweet looking baby that doesnt make it. Also we know that womas have wobble as well as spiders. Perhaps the woma is acting on the same locus as spider? Does anyone know if a Woma Spider acts as a super? Producing all either spiders and womas. Or does it act like a Bumblebee, producing spiders, pastels, and normals. Food for thought?

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## OhhWatALoser

> Was this ever answered? I didnt see it.


it was in the first post, OP said there was no super spiders.




> I read this whole thread and the Super Mojave thing got me thinking. Woma and Spider look very close, and in some instances it would take a well trained eye to tell them apart. I havent seen or heard of too many woma x spider breedings (probly cause the cross wouldn't be to extravagant) but a thought came to my mind. We all know that woma x woma makes a fail for a snake. A sweet looking baby that doesnt make it. Also we know that womas have wobble as well as spiders. Perhaps the woma is acting on the same locus as spider? Does anyone know if a Woma Spider acts as a super? Producing all either spiders and womas. Or does it act like a Bumblebee, producing spiders, pastels, and normals. Food for thought?


you might be mixing up hidden gene woma with woma. HG woma makes the pearl which is the fail snake. There is no known homozygous woma. I do know quite a few woma x spider have been made, heck ive seen a few in real life, but honestly I've never herd of breeding results from a spider woma parent. hm....

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## interloc

Oh ok. The HG woma makes the pearl and the plain jane woma acts like a spider then with no super? Interesting. 

Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk

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## OhhWatALoser

> Oh ok. The HG woma makes the pearl and the plain jane woma acts like a spider then with no super? Interesting.


no the woma doesn't have a proven homozygous, we don't know how it acts.

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## interloc

> no the woma doesn't have a proven homozygous, we don't know how it acts.


Ah ok. 

To the op, do the same thing again with womas. Lol. Just kiddin. I guess time will tell. 


Sent from my poo fone using Tapatalk

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## WingedWolfPsion

I heard a rumor of someone producing a super-woma that looked like a regular woma, proving it to be true dominant.  Not a whole lot of people working with them, and few have ever tried to produce a super.

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## seeya205

I would like to see some evidence of this experiment.  Sounds like an aweful lot of snakes for a private collector to take care of just to see if Spider X Spider is lethal and alot of money to house and feed never mind the time it takes. It would have to be at least a 4 year experiment and that's only if the original pairs were purchased as adults. It would take 2-3 years to raise up the female babies to beed them!  Also a Spider X Normal producing a Bee does not make any sense!  How do we know that this is not just some kind of prank or BS?  Kevin at NERD has said he did Spider X Spider pairing many times with no deaths or Supers produced!  I just don't buy this!

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## Davidsherps

> I would like to see some evidence of this experiment.  Sounds like an aweful lot of snakes for a private collector to take care of just to see if Spider X Spider is lethal and alot of money to house and feed never mind the time it takes. It would have to be at least a 4 year experiment and that's only if the original pairs were purchased as adults. It would take 2-3 years to raise up the female babies to beed them!  Also a Spider X Normal producing a Bee does not make any sense!  How do we know that this is not just some kind of prank or BS?  Kevin at NERD has said he did Spider X Spider pairing many times with no deaths or Supers produced!  I just don't buy this!


It was a pastel x normal from the spider x spider offspring and I'm not sure if this is real or fake but a interesting thread to read.  Hope to find out more info about this!

----------


## eatgoodfood

Well if its real the OP can come on here and provide all the pairing details, photos maybe?  What kind of proof do we want, I want to seel all the data, I would think the OP would be more than willing to provide that and their credentials?

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

Photos, breeding records, dates. Actually I'd be really interested to see a picture that proves that the OP had/has THAT many spiders. I did some brief research on his post history.




> My first morph was way back when when the yb's were really slippin through eveeryones fingers and I actually got it at a pet shop for like 150 at the time. I can't remember what year it was but when I finally figured out what he was I had sold him....... Stupid me... After that it was a pastel male paid like 75 for him and he is a pretty decent one about a year old and almost no brown out on him.


That was posted in 2009. How does someone go from one yellowbelly to one pastel, and then to at least 30 (adult) spider females? If he purchased 30 adult spider females in 2009 he would barely have enough time to have bred their offspring and come up with these results.

----------

Badgemash (09-21-2012),Davidsherps (09-21-2012),_seeya205_ (09-28-2012)

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## eatgoodfood

Interesting, and judging by the lack of response from the OP im starting to be sceptical.  Hope its for real, that would be great!  But yeah, OP can you please send us the details!

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

And this was posted in December of 2009:




> Moving out of state and have to get some money up so I am selling my entire collection. Boas are norms 1.2, BP's 1.0 pastel, 1.1 het pieds with paperwork, 0.1 het red axanthic 1.4 normals, Normal JPC have pics somewhere not exactly sure at this time but if you would like them feel free to email me tattlife2001@yahoo.com or PM through here. All normal females have bred to the pastel for the BP's. Make an offer for whole group or an individual animal.


In 2009 he did not have 30 adult spider females. So let's say at the beginning of 2010 he purchased them. Let's say that he bred them and they laid for him. The offspring of that first generation would only be 2 years old. It's getting more and more unlikely that this experiment actually did happen.

----------


## billye1982

He said that normal to spider breeding produced 1100ish eggs.  That is from 150 or so spiders from the spider x spider breeding.  If half of those are males, 75 breeder males at 1.5 years old he would need about 100 normal females to breed those males too, then the 75 female spiders would need to be three years old and be bred to normal males to get the balance of the 1100 eggs.  That is one heck of a breeding operation to have 200+ adult BPs, I hate to not believe a person, but this does sound a little out there.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

And this was posted in 2011:




> All spiders wobble. It could be as miniscule as the head tilting just a tiny bit to severe corkscrewing but they all do wobble. I have a few spiders and have seen a lot more and every one of them wobbles. Even the combos wobble. It comes with having a spider. Some people will not have them due to the wobble but I personally think that if it doesn't inhibit the snakes ability to live then there is no real problem with it.


He says he has "a few" spiders. Generally "a few" means less than 10, let alone 30.

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## RandyRemington

I assumed if we got an actual name it would be some known large breeder (maybe one of the ones that doesn't post a lot) but good idea searching the old posts.  Hard to believe anyone would post misinformation to hinder progress on figuring this out so hope it's legit.

----------


## meowmeowkazoo

> Just to show some numbers on this that I have produced myself. I have bred Spider to Spider 25 times in total, the last time was 4 years ago. Out of all of them I had 1 slug and 3 eggs go bad during incubation. I did use ultra sound and every number is the exact same for follicle count vs eggs/slugs. I was very lucky and hatched 5 males the first year and they were breeding normal females the next year and were not homo spiders. The females that were raised up that were spider and bred to normal males produced the standard outcome. This year is the last year I will be doing these breedings and currently have 91 eggs incubating from those pairings. So we will see. But so far nothing at all has shown any form of lethality or a super form at all. So with the amount of breedings done on this is a decent amount for a base case study and more can be done to add to it. As a side note there were no multi gene animals used through the entire process it was only spider to spider and then offspring to normals.


Posted a few months ago. He says he has bred spider to spider 25 times, and the last time was four years ago. Yet in 2009 (3 years ago) he stated that his first morphs were a yellowbelly and then a pastel male. No mention of spiders. And he says that this year he has 91 eggs incubating, which is a bit far off from the numbers he originally posted in this thread.

- - - Updated - - -

And now I'm done, time for an Internet break, lol. I sincerely hope that my brain is just broken today because these quotes seem to be adding up to something rather strange. I dismissed this thread (from 2009) at first, though it stuck in the back of my mind as odd. 

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?91377-Spider-question

This quote in particular is troubling:




> Ok results are in and I had 1326 clutches that were from female spiders and the total eggs from female spiders were.................................. 7956 that is an average of 6 eggs to a clutch...
> 
> I had a lot more males so to make it more fair I took a chart and wrote down all th females and how many eggs laid..... then took and matched things up... So say this chutch had 5 eggs in it froma female spider i found a clutch that had 5 eggs from a male spider.... I did not look at the outcome of each clutch until I had the exact numbers of eggs and clutches done and then I took and added up spiders produced the males and spiders produced by the females.... 
> 
> So who is ready for the results?????????
> 
> 
> From male spiders bred to normal females the total number of spiders produced in 1326 clutches of eggs with a total count of 7956 eggs was 3291 spiders................41.36%
> 
> ...


He says that his male spiders to normal females produced the EXACT SAME amount of clutches with the EXACT SAME amount of eggs as his female spiders to normal males. And he claims to be working with thousands of animals. 

Now I really am done, maybe someone else will read through this all and tell me I'm paranoid/dumb or that I've been spending too much time on the BOI. I would like to know what others think.

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## billye1982

I might be wrong, but I would think if there were 30+ pairings of spider x spider, even if there is no super spider, the odds would work out to where all the eggs from one clutch would be all spider.

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## eatgoodfood

That kind of does it for me right there.  Forget that the numbers are the same,  I find it very un-likely that someone has that many animals, time, money to produce 16000 eggs from spider to spider pairings........  But whats the point, not like their getting anything out of jerking us around except maybe a laugh.....

ok so i started reading through that thread and it looks like the op did not do the breeding but compiled the data from other breeders..

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## eatgoodfood

I had to re-read that post with the exact same numbers, so its not his breeding, its compiled data, and he took the data and matched it so there were the same number of breedings- and clutch size for both pairings, so thats not fishy at all.  I really wish the OP would come on and give us his information so we can put this to rest.

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## gsarchie

TROLL!!!  No way this stuff is legit.  I have never known someone to breed spider to spider in all my times on internet forums and to think that he got that much info from that many clutches of spiderXspider and subsequent pairing of offspring is just too much for me to believe.  In my opinion the OPs silence is pretty damning in this case.

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## Emilio

OP was on today and decided to ignore this thread quite telling.

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## RandyRemington

Darn. 

BTW, TSK is doing a spider X spider project.  Nowhere near the numbers claimed in this thread, but when they do give data you can bet it will be accurate and reliable.

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## paulh

Glad to hear that.

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## Riv

Wow.. Really pretty dissapointed with the way this went. I too assumed it must have been a professional breeder who was using his own facility and rescources to breed on such a large scale, but the numbers timelines and data dont add up. not to mention even if he rid breed on that level, taking a year or two to breed spiders and their offspring would financially cripple him and his business. He would not only be taking the value of spiders and dropping it by flooding the market with them(ruining his own sales) but they arent exactly high doller to begin with, and would never even make his money back in a timely fashion assuming he purchased the first generation as adults. Its finicially a terrible idea and not at all worth it to work with those numbers. Im glad someone blew the whistle and stopped people who generally take others at their word(like me) from spreading false results. I want to actually know whats going on with the spider morph though = (  Youd think if he was going to lie about results he would have put more work into it though. A trained chimp can look at old posts.

-Riveran

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_sookieball_ (09-25-2012)

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## billye1982

I think we can officialy say "myth busted"  :Smile: .  I wouldnt mind seeing this on a smaller scale, say 1 male and 4-5 breeder spider females.  That would not cripple a person and I think it could be proven on even that small of a scale.  5 females laying 5 eggs each, 25 total, 12 spiders, 6 males and 6 females.  In a year and a half the 6 males could be bred to 6 normals, if any of them throw an all spider clutch it could be attempted again with multiple females the next year.  So it would be a 3 year case study minimum, but I think that would be a big enough sample.

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Riv (09-25-2012)

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## Riv

I think a group of breeders should get together via email, and determine how the data would be recorded, and all do like 2 spider x spider pairs each. No one would have to take a terrible financial hit buying housing and feeding mass amounts, and as long as the data is well recorded all of the results could be compiled together. If you got 10 breeders here on BP.net, that would give you at bare minimum 20 clutches to study. Plus ive seen people around here claim theyve known other breeders for upwards of 10 years. If you can maintain a business relationship for that long I dont see why youd lose touch once you started a long term experiment like this. Just my 2 cents = P Im not really established enough to do the experiment myself, but I am curious like you wouldnt beleive.

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Pickenprod (08-05-2013)

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## eatgoodfood

> I think a group of breeders should get together via email, and determine how the data would be recorded, and all do like 2 spider x spider pairs each. No one would have to take a terrible financial hit buying housing and feeding mass amounts, and as long as the data is well recorded all of the results could be compiled together. If you got 10 breeders here on BP.net, that would give you at bare minimum 20 clutches to study. Plus ive seen people around here claim theyve known other breeders for upwards of 10 years. If you can maintain a business relationship for that long I dont see why youd lose touch once you started a long term experiment like this. Just my 2 cents = P Im not really established enough to do the experiment myself, but I am curious like you wouldnt beleive.


I think this could work and would be interesting but I dont see it happening.  I for one have the space and the ability to feed, but what I do not have is the 2k plus euro to buy two breeder pairs.  And I could not justify spending that on something that would not further any of my projects.  I honestly dont think even a larger breeder would be willing to spend the time, space and feeding costs, no matter how little, for something that will not further their projects any.  But maybe im worng?

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## Riv

Frankly youre not wrong. Anyone with the right rescources is in breeding not just for the joy of breeding, but to make some money as well. And it just doesnt make sense to sink money into spider x spider experiments, unless of course youre making more than enough money at the time, have a little extra space and breed your own feeders. Than I wouldnt see why not. But only so many are in that position, and unless you like that sorta stuff it would absolutely make more sense to have that extra pair of various multi trait morphs.

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## 1nstinct

In theory it is a good experiment, until i see pictures, of spider adults used in breeding, all offspring produced, then pictures of the offspring breeding, i have a very hard time believing, someone has the space, time, and money to do this type of experiment. I find it hard, that some of the big breeders would have the resources to do this, on this large of a scale. It would take a lot of money and time to complete this experiment on this large of a scale.
and where is this bumble bee produced? can we at least see pics of the adults that were breed to produce this "Bee"?
I am saying this "experiment" is fake until the OP post pictures of his adult spiders, and all offspring(or at least of all the spiders produced), and this "bee"

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## paulh

The first mating doesn't have to be spider x spider with no other mutant genes. Here is a mating that produced 5 babies that could have a pair of spider mutant genes.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-x-bee-results

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## snakesRkewl

> So there you have it. Those are the end results. Let me know what you think.

----------

Riv (09-26-2012),_seeya205_ (09-28-2012),_Serpent_Nirvana_ (09-27-2012)

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## joebad976

> 


That is good  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:

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## seeya205

The one that really got me is that he got a bee from a Pastel X Normal pairing and the normal came from one of the Spider X Spider pairings.  That would mean it has Het Spider!  Not possible!  Kevin from NERD already had said in a video that he has done many Spider X Spider pairings over the years and never had a Super or lethal gene issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR...ture=endscreen

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## OhhWatALoser

> The one that really got me is that he got a bee from a Pastel X Normal pairing and the normal came from one of the Spider X Spider pairings.  That would mean it has Het Spider!  Not possible!  Kevin from NERD already had said in a video that he has done many Spider X Spider pairings over the years and never had a Super or lethal gene issues.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR...ture=endscreen


If there is nothing fishy about that part of the story, that "normal" even looks paradox, nothing weird there really, its reproductive organs are spider.  A normal from a spider x spider is not weird regardless of how you believe the gene works. Im not sure what you mean by the het spider thing, but all spiders are hets, just visual hets.

It is disappointing, i have been talking to him since he made the comment about doing 25x spider x spider breedings. He was never very prompt with responses but i figured he should of responded by now. No doubt the time lines of his post history dont line up. Back to where we were before, not knowing a whole lot.

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## meowmeowkazoo

> If there is nothing fishy about that part of the story, that "normal" even looks paradox, nothing weird there really, its reproductive organs are spider.  A normal from a spider x spider is not weird regardless of how you believe the gene works. Im not sure what you mean by the het spider thing, but all spiders are hets, just visual hets.
> 
> It is disappointing, i have been talking to him since he made the comment about doing 25x spider x spider breedings. He was never very prompt with responses but i figured he should of responded by now. No doubt the time lines of his post history dont line up. Back to where we were before, not knowing a whole lot.


Spiders are NOT visual hets. There is no super form.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Spiders ARE visual hets, whether there is a super form or not.  'Het', short for 'heterozygous', means that the animal carries one mutant gene copy, and one normal gene copy, on the same locus.  That is all that it means, and nothing else is implied.
The fact that spiders apparently cannot be homozygous (carry 2 mutant copies of the gene on the same locus) does not in any way change that.

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_satomi325_ (09-28-2012)

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## meowmeowkazoo

> Spiders ARE visual hets, whether there is a super form or not.  'Het', short for 'heterozygous', means that the animal carries one mutant gene copy, and one normal gene copy, on the same locus.  That is all that it means, and nothing else is implied.
> The fact that spiders apparently cannot be homozygous (carry 2 mutant copies of the gene on the same locus) does not in any way change that.


I don't think that's what it means.  :Confused: 

http://biology.about.com/od/genetics...terozygous.htm

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, like heterozygous versus homozygous, got it. My bad.  :Embarassed:

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## TheTruth

I am a friend of the OP and am responding on his behalf in sorts. The reason he has not replied is because he passed away. Before you start attacking someone try to learn who they are and what they stand for. He didn't bred snakes to make money or anything close to that. He bred snakes because he loved it. He would breed all normals if that was all that was available. I can guarantee that he did the breedings as stated, he did mess up the end numbers but that is human error and misreading the numbers nothing more than that. The data is now in my hands and I am finishing what he started and bringing this all to a close for him. All data pertaining to this and everything else he was working on will be available when it is all put into a format that can be published and marketed. I will not be posting anything on here for it until the book is released and then it will just be a link to where to buy it. 

Thank you and good bye.

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## gsarchie

I still smell a troll here.  If not, I'm sorry for your loss.

Could a mod maybe check the IP adress of the new user with one post that knew just where to find this thread against the IP for the OP?  Not that it would be definitive if they were different but it would be definitive if they were the same.  It is just my curiousity and nothing else, so if you don't care to or don't have the time then no worries.

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## TheTruth

If it helps the OP lived in Washington state and I am in Michigan born and raised. It is great to know that you can smell a toll so far away though. I am now going to BEG a Mod to do an IP check. And just so Other things are cleared up right away. I just made this account to day. Why? Because we were waiting for a few legal issues to be cleared up and I was not going to post anything until that was completed. The OP was my best friend and that is the only reason I am even coming to his defense on here and that is the only reason I even posted anything. Please keep all negative comments to yourself about my friend.

Edit:
The reason I knew where to find this is because his wife let me know about it.

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## nimblykimbly

> I still smell a troll here.  If not, I'm sorry for your loss.


x2 ...but I know that if I passed away, I honestly don't think a person would post so extensively on a forum on my behalf. I think that even my closest friends, heck even husband (though I doubt he'd say anything) would simply say I had passed away... but likely not go to the extent of searching out every forum I was a member of and addressing an unanswered thread.... *shrugs shoulders*

As for IP addresses, who said you couldn't have moved? Just sayin'....

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_gsarchie_ (02-23-2013)

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## gsarchie

Right, because the OP could never have moved and or gotten a new computer, huh?  I'm not trying to be negative, but the original thread smelled of fishiness and trolls and my hunch tells me that you sudden post does as well.

Again, if I am wrong , and if what you say is true, then I am sorry for your loss, but I am too cautious a person to take your out of the blue post lightly.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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nimblykimbly (02-23-2013)

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## nimblykimbly

> Right, because the OP could never have moved and or gotten a new computer, huh?  I'm not trying to be negative, but the original thread smelled of fishiness and trolls and my hunch tells me that you sudden post does as well.
> 
> Again, if I am wrong , and if what you say is true, then I am sorry for your loss, but I am too cautious a person to take your out of the blue post lightly.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


I concur

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_gsarchie_ (02-23-2013)

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## sho220

Considering this turn of events, we should just let this thread die...

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## TheTruth

Honestly that would be pretty extreme to post on a single forum wouldn't it? I understand where you are coming from and short of providing a death certificate there is nothing that I can do to make up your mind. It is not my right to do so so I will not. After I have completed his work and post the information on where and how to get the book on this thread I will no longer be on this forum. 

I posted as his best friend and at the request of his wife to let people know that the results will be available with thousands of pictures, all time stamped, with all the text data in the near future. There is a little more work that needs to go in to this book. His full plan was to have an answer for the spider gene, have an answer for the pinstripe gene, and have an answer for the female desert issues. He completed one of those parts and I will be completing the rest for him. After that is completed then the results will be made public for everyone to see.

I am sorry if I came off as rude previously but understand that from my point of view I was being attacked and still feel that way. I am a snake lover and love working with them but after this I am not sure I want to be a part of this community any longer.

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## nimblykimbly

> Considering this turn of events, we should just let this thread die...


+




> Honestly that would be pretty extreme to post on a single forum wouldn't it? I understand where you are coming from and short of providing a death certificate there is nothing that I can do to make up your mind. It is not my right to do so so I will not. After I have completed his work and post the information on where and how to get the book on this thread I will no longer be on this forum. 
> 
> I posted as his best friend and at the request of his wife to let people know that the results will be available with thousands of pictures, all time stamped, with all the text data in the near future. There is a little more work that needs to go in to this book. His full plan was to have an answer for the spider gene, have an answer for the pinstripe gene, and have an answer for the female desert issues. He completed one of those parts and I will be completing the rest for him. After that is completed then the results will be made public for everyone to see.
> 
> I am sorry if I came off as rude previously but understand that from my point of view I was being attacked and still feel that way. I am a snake lover and love working with them but after this I am not sure I want to be a part of this community any longer.


= I agree. Good luck with your book, and goodbye.

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## sho220

> Honestly that would be pretty extreme to post on a single forum wouldn't it? I understand where you are coming from and short of providing a death certificate there is nothing that I can do to make up your mind. It is not my right to do so so I will not. After I have completed his work and post the information on where and how to get the book on this thread I will no longer be on this forum. 
> 
> I posted as his best friend and at the request of his wife to let people know that the results will be available with thousands of pictures, all time stamped, with all the text data in the near future. There is a little more work that needs to go in to this book. His full plan was to have an answer for the spider gene, have an answer for the pinstripe gene, and have an answer for the female desert issues. He completed one of those parts and I will be completing the rest for him. After that is completed then the results will be made public for everyone to see.
> 
> I am sorry if I came off as rude previously but understand that from my point of view I was being attacked and still feel that way. I am a snake lover and love working with them but after this I am not sure I want to be a part of this community any longer.


If this is all on the up-and-up, how do you explain the conflicting posts where the OP says "I have a few spider pairs" at the time he was supposed to be breeding more Spiders than anyone on the planet?  Meowmeowkazoo brought up a lot of interesting contradictions that don't seem to have answers.

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_adamsky27_ (02-26-2013)

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## sho220

And one more thing...creating a user name like "TheTruth" automatically has me suspicious that you're telling anything but....


But that's probably just me....

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_adamsky27_ (02-26-2013),_gsarchie_ (02-23-2013)

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## gsarchie

I'm not meaning to attack and I'm sorry that you feel that way.  Curious points were brought up and more unanswered questions just came up as far as I'm concerned.  Good luck with whatever work you are, in fact, doing.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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nimblykimbly (02-23-2013)

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## gsarchie

> And one more thing...creating a user name like "TheTruth" automatically has me suspicious that you're telling anything but....
> 
> 
> But that's probably just me....


It isn't.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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nimblykimbly (02-23-2013)

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## TheTruth

The name comes from a wrestler most of you have most likely never heard of his name is Truth Martini and he now runs a wrestling school here he is someone I happen to admire as a person. As for the other questions they will be answered in the book. I will not post here again because it is a waste of my time and my life. I hope the best for everyone and as I said I will be posting a link where to buy the book when it is finished and you will all have all the answers you want with all the proof in the world. Enjoy your nights I have to leave here now. Good bye.

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## RandyRemington

Can anyone find an obituary for Thomas N Rosati from either Spokane, WA or Wyandotte, MI?

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_adamsky27_ (02-26-2013),nimblykimbly (02-23-2013)

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## nimblykimbly

> The name comes from a wrestler most of you have most likely never heard of his name is Truth Martini and he now runs a wrestling school here he is someone I happen to admire as a person. As for the other questions they will be answered in the book. I will not post here again because it is a waste of my time and my life. I hope the best for everyone and as I said I will be posting a link where to buy the book when it is finished and you will all have all the answers you want with all the proof in the world. Enjoy your nights I have to leave here now. Good bye.


May you be ever prosperous and successful with your, er, I mean your friend's infinite wisdom... and papers... and such.

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_adamsky27_ (02-26-2013)

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## nimblykimbly

> Can anyone find an obituary for Thomas N Rosati from either Spokane, WA or Wyandotte, MI?


Nope, found nothing....

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## sho220

Not sure if it's the same tattlife2001... http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/jus...re-theifs.html

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## Pythonfriend

after reading the first few pages and the last few pages, my opinion about the spider gene doesnt change at all.


the mechanism is simple:  heterozygous spiders are fine, and homozygous spiders dont exist because the homozygous spider is lethal.

since the original poster didnt mention the amount of slugs, i still see two options:

1.) Homozygous spider is very deadly, so that the embryo dies so fast that the mother snake produces a slug instead of a full-sized egg. 

2.) Homozygous spider is even more deadly, so that the fertilized zygote cannot even split once, or something prevents the egg from forming, and the mother snake doesnt even produce a slug. I consider it remotely possible that the female simply responds by producing another egg, that females just fill their bellies with eggs and stop when they have as many eggs growing as they can handle. But i think a 25% drop in fertility is more likely. 


and the consequences for breeding? i dont know, im not a catholic, it doesnt bother me when embryos or zygotes that are less sentient than a tomato die. So the only reason to avoid breeding spider to spider would be that possible (not proven out) 25% drop in fertility.

in my opinion the wobble is the bigger issue.

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## gsarchie

> Not sure if it's the same tattlife2001... http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/jus...re-theifs.html


I can't imagine that it is anyone different.  Good detective work!

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## Rob

Why would someone go on a bunch of different forums and pretend to have a warehouse of snakes? 
If its a troll it's a pretty lame one.

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## Peoples

> wow I didn't know your numbers were so extensive, so if im reading it correctly, every single one of the 153 spider offspring from the spider x spider pairing was bred to see if they were homozygous? Also I saw a thread that claimed to produce an all white snake that died after hatching from a spider x spider pairing, you never saw anything like this?
> 
> the "normal" making spiders is quite interesting also, few explanations that come to mind right away. (can we get a picture of her for the heck of it?)
> simple one would be she is a spider that pattern resembles normalish quailties (im sure you thought of it already), 
> she could be a paradox, having spider reproductive organs, 
> she is a spider, but also has a recessive trait that dominants over it, making her look normal
> epigenetics is at play and the expression on the spider gene is turned down, or even off.


Sounds like he has a Chimera.... Scenario, 2 embryo in an egg developing into one.... 1 normal / 1 Spider dna merging  to produce a normal looking snake which will produce spider offspring...

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## T&C Exotics

I would like to start this out by saying that I will not be going in any order and most of this will not be easy to follow. I am sorry to everyone here for this thread. I can not and will not make excuses for anything that I did. I will give a back story as to myself at the time of this thread starting and leading up to it as well as a few other things. I had started the breedings for the spider gene. It was a group of 2.5 spiders. I wanted to know exactly what was going on. They were purchased back in early 2011 and were bred in 2012. That is as far as it ever got. I do not remember what was produced from the breedings to be honest. Shortly after those eggs hatched I made this thread. The numbers I posted were in a way real numbers, they were compiled from multiple people who had done spider x spider breedings but they were not my results. Shortly after I made the post my life took a major twist and it resulted in me having a nervous breakdown. I was also suffering from drug abuse. I checked myself in to a hospital and stayed for 90 days. After I was released I continued counseling and am still doing so today. Right now I do not have any snakes due to a recent move cross country. The second person that posted on this thread speaking for me stating that I had died was my brother whom I am currently staying with, I do not know why he posted or what his intentions were in posting and I apologize for that as well. The link that is provided in this thread is not from me so please do not group me with that person. As of today I am mentally stable and drug free. I do plan on getting in to snakes again and I hope to one day prove what is going on with the spider gene as well as the pinstripe and woma, not to be confused with hg woma. If I am able to do any of those then I will make a thread here and post pictures all along the way so there are no doubts at all as to what exactly happens with them. Again I am sorry for everything and for dragging this out. I know I will not be welconed back with open arms and pretty much everyone will question pretty much anything that I happen to post here. I hope that over time I will be able to regain trust and be a part of this wonderful community that is actually helping instead of hindering. Thank you for your time in reading this last post. If I am not welcome here any Admin can feel free to let me know and I will delete my account and will not return but I hope it does not come to that.

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_BlueMoonExotics_ (07-30-2013),_Danounet_ (08-01-2013),_interloc_ (07-30-2013)

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## interloc

Well I think at this point, the only thing to say is apology accepted and I think I can speak for many of us here and say, great job for turning your life around! I know there are a few people here who use ball pythons as sort of a stress reliever of sorts. Stay on the path it sounds like your on and you will be just fine. 

Also cool idea on trying to prove what's up with those genes. Not many people would take on that responsibility. Good luck with future endeavours and welcome back.

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_T&C Exotics_ (07-30-2013)

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## T&C Exotics

Thank you. I figure since I made this whole mess I should at least do it and follow through and see what happens.

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Badgemash (07-30-2013)

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## BlueMoonExotics

Back from the dead I see. Just kidding.... I'm kidding that wasn't funny but I had to. I'm sure that it took a lot for you to come and admit that you had lied, especially after you were in it so deep. If you do manage to earn some trust back, I hope you learned your lesson and don't throw it away so easily over something so silly. Your reputation is everything in a community like this.

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_T&C Exotics_ (07-30-2013)

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## JLC

> If I am not welcome here any Admin can feel free to let me know and I will delete my account and will not return but I hope it does not come to that.


Of course you're still welcomed here.  You're making a conscious, hard-working, determined effort to change what you know has been wrong in your life.  That is to be admired and appreciated.  Trust and reputation take time to rebuild, but so long as you continue on this path, there's absolutely no reason why it can't be done, and often times even stronger than before.  

I wish you all the best in your journey and hope that someday we can follow a serious study of the spider gene with you.

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_T&C Exotics_ (07-30-2013)

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## Freakie_frog

> after reading the first few pages and the last few pages, my opinion about the spider gene doesn't change at all.
> 
> 
> the mechanism is simple:  heterozygous spiders are fine, and homozygous spiders don't exist because the homozygous spider is lethal.
> 
> since the original poster didn't mention the amount of slugs, i still see two options:
> 
> 1.) Homozygous spider is very deadly, so that the embryo dies so fast that the mother snake produces a slug instead of a full-sized egg. 
> 
> 2.) Homozygous spider is even more deadly, so that the fertilized zygote cannot even split once, or something prevents the egg from forming, and the mother snake doesn't even produce a slug. I consider it remotely possible that the female simply responds by producing another egg, that females just fill their bellies with eggs and stop when they have as many eggs growing as they can handle. But i think a 25% drop in fertility is more likely.


Let me just throw this out there. slugs were never at any point fertile. Fertilization happens when the snake ovulates or shortly after. So slug never saw genetic material from either parent. The more likely idea is that infertile eggs were "Super spiders" didn't make it past the first cellular division. However because we don't truly understand reptile DNA and the associated mutations of it we wont be able to say for sure that the morphs are determined at the time of the first division or even later on. it's more likely that the mutation kicks in later in the embryo's development since its things like pigment and what not that are effected. With all of that said I've long said that it's naive to think that the only thing these mutations effect physiologically is skin pigment, We see kinking, cleft jaws, small eye's wobble's, duck bills ect ect. All of those this are changes to the anatomy of the animal. 

Still so much to learn and discover

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_C&H Exotic Morphs_ (07-30-2013),_TJ_Burton_ (07-30-2013)

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## Badgemash

> Let me just throw this out there. slugs were never at any point fertile. Fertilization happens when the snake ovulates or shortly after. So slug never saw genetic material from either parent. The more likely idea is that infertile eggs were "Super spiders" didn't make it past the first cellular division. However because we don't truly understand reptile DNA and the associated mutations of it we wont be able to say for sure that the morphs are determined at the time of the first division or even later on. it's more likely that the mutation kicks in later in the embryo's development since its things like pigment and what not that are effected. With all of that said I've long said that it's naive to think that the only thing these mutations effect physiologically is skin pigment, We see kinking, cleft jaws, small eye's wobble's, duck bills ect ect. All of those this are changes to the anatomy of the animal. 
> 
> Still so much to learn and discover


I'm going to try to phrase my response carefully, because I don't want to come across as combative when I really just want to understand what you're saying. I'm sure a lot has changed since my last genetics course, and a lot of what I learned is probably outdated, but I'd appreciate some clarification on some of your points. 

Where does your info for slugs having never been fertile come from? 

Surely if they are in fact "super spiders" that didn't make it past cellular division (or possibly not very far into it), they have received genetic material from both parents? 

Although things like skin pigment are not visible in the early stages of development, the genes for it are there. The genetic material that determines the morph is there from the point of meiosis. However I believe you are correct in stating that the mutation (assuming that in your statement mutation is synonymous with morph and any associated defects) can cause problems later in development as those genes are activated during the embryos development.

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## Badgemash

> Thank you. I figure since I made this whole mess I should at least do it and follow through and see what happens.


It takes courage to stand up and take responsibility for our actions sometimes. I wish you all the best in your continued recovery.

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_T&C Exotics_ (07-30-2013)

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## C&H Exotic Morphs

> I'm going to try to phrase my response carefully, because I don't want to come across as combative when I really just want to understand what you're saying. I'm sure a lot has changed since my last genetics course, and a lot of what I learned is probably outdated, but I'd appreciate some clarification on some of your points. 
> 
> Where does your info for slugs having never been fertile come from? 
> 
> Surely if they are in fact "super spiders" that didn't make it past cellular division (or possibly not very far into it), they have received genetic material from both parents? 
> 
> Although things like skin pigment are not visible in the early stages of development, the genes for it are there. The genetic material that determines the morph is there from the point of meiosis. However I believe you are correct in stating that the mutation (assuming that in your statement mutation is synonymous with morph and any associated defects) can cause problems later in development as those genes are activated during the embryos development.


Slugs are slugs way before a female Ovys.  The male or his sperm have nothing to do with slugs.  There are numerous people(Jerry aka SnakesRKewl being the one I remember off the top of my head) that have stated they can actually palpate slugs along with viable follicles and there is a clear difference in how they feel. 

As for what is really going on we don't have a clue.  We are playing with the Phenotypes of these animals and have very little understand what is going on with the rest of the Genotype.


To the OP-
I commend you on getting your life together and making the changes that you want to make to improve it.
Also for coming on here and laying it all out there and apologizing.
Good luck in your journey and we look forward to seeing what comes.

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snakesRkewl (11-10-2013),_T&C Exotics_ (07-30-2013)

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## Badgemash

> Slugs are slugs way before a female Ovys.  The male or his sperm have nothing to do with slugs.  There are numerous people(Jerry aka SnakesRKewl being the one I remember off the top of my head) that have stated they can actually palpate slugs along with viable follicles and there is a clear difference in how they feel.


That is both really cool, and good to know, thank you.

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## T&C Exotics

Thank you all for the kind words. That honestly means a lot to me.

As to the gene questions. I do have a theory... First keep in mind that I will not be using any technical terms at all because I do not know them.

So what  I think is going on. I do not think that there is a super spider at all and I also do not think it is lethal or anything like that. When the egg and sperm come together that is what makes the baby right? What I think happens here is one of 2 things. 1 being that an egg and sperm both carrying the spider gene are not "attracted" to each other, meaning the sperm will just pass that egg up and fertilize one that is normal. Or the second option I feel is possible is that if the egg and sperm both carry the spider gene then only one of them will be displayed genetically, essentially if both mom and pop pass along the same gene to one baby that would normally result in a super we get a spider that is just a normal spider... Hard to explain my thinking on the second one I guess you could say that one spider gene can only be present at one time and if 2 come into contact with eachother one wipes the other out leaving only 1 spider gene in the dna and a blank spot, the blank spot could then be "filled" or replaced with a normal gene.

I said both of these because honestly we do not know what the dna of a snake is able to do. It could heal its self in a way. I also think that the worst wobbles that we see in the spiders could possibly come from a line that was derived from spider x spider breedings... Possible I think so.

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## RandyRemington

Welcome back, stay clean!

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## Spiritserpents

I don't think either of those theories are plausible. First, sperm just aren't that 'smart', and the ovum is encapsulated with none of the DNA available for the sperm to peruse. Second, one gene will not entirely delete a gene from the other chromosome. 

From what I've seen, most of you introduce the male to the female well before she ovulates which means she is storing sperm. This can act to partially negate the idea that slugs are follicles that are bad from the go. Or if not a cause of the slugs, what might be happening is that the spider-spider combo is simply so lethal that the female resorbs it entirely due to failure to develop at all.

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## C&H Exotic Morphs

> I don't think either of those theories are plausible. First, sperm just aren't that 'smart', and the ovum is encapsulated with none of the DNA available for the sperm to peruse. Second, one gene will not entirely delete a gene from the other chromosome. 
> 
> From what I've seen, most of you introduce the male to the female well before she ovulates which means she is storing sperm. This can act to partially negate the idea that slugs are follicles that are bad from the go. Or if not a cause of the slugs, what might be happening is that the spider-spider combo is simply so lethal that the female resorbs it entirely due to failure to develop at all.



Yes the female does store the sperm.  But, it doesn't meet the follicle until the female Ovys and slugs are slugs well before Ovy.  Second a female can't reabsorb an egg or slug after she has Ovulated.

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snakesRkewl (11-10-2013)

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## T&C Exotics

Ok what I meant by the egg and sperm that both carry the spider gene not being attracted to each other was that maybe there is something in the protein of one or the other that does not allow the sperm to fertilize the egg. Could be a weaker sperm cell or a thicker egg membrane something such as that. I know it is grabbing at straws but it is imo something is at least possible.

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## vankmen.

Just grabbing at straws here but do any of the normal offspring from spider x spider carry the head wobble ?

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## Pythonfriend

> Just grabbing at straws here but do any of the normal offspring from spider x spider carry the head wobble ?


Never. Spider x spider pairings have been done often and for a long time, and the 33% normals (note that i didnt say 25%) you get from a spider x spider pairing do not show any issues. If you see from looking at the hatchling that it has no spider gene, thats it, it doesnt have the gene so it wont wobble. (unless it has another wobbly gene in it).

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## Spiritserpents

> Second a female can't reabsorb an egg or slug after she has Ovulated.


You are sure about that? I know that corns can, because I've had females do that. And cats and dogs will resorb fetuses as well in the first trimester.

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## C&H Exotic Morphs

> You are sure about that? I know that corns can, because I've had females do that. And cats and dogs will resorb fetuses as well in the first trimester.


There are no mechanisms within the oviduct to allow them to be reabsorbed after ovulation.
Are you sure you aren't mistaking building/swelling for the actual ovulation? 

With mammals it's a whole different situation.  The embryo/fetus is attached to the uterus.

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## Snatantula

I have been reading on this site for almost a year now and have learned ALOT. So I think im ready to start putting my 2 cents in  :Very Happy:  so here it is.

1st - Could the norm female just have been a really bad looking spider kinda like a really ugly person ?
2 - Is it possible that the spider gene from the wild carried all these bad traits like the head wobble and over time from captive breeding it has just been bred out? A small step of evolution from the spiders?

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## LadyByrd

That is true, a recessive gene cannot dominate a dominant gene, but a co-dominant gene can mask or alter another co-dominant gene.  Like with flowers when you breed red roses with white roses and get pink roses.

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## Pythonfriend

i think this whole thread is based on: FAKE. i do not believe the pairings this thread is based on ever occured. 

so i think this whole thread is garbage, and based on false information.

EDIT: also its a revived zombie thread

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MarkS (02-24-2014),_Slim_ (02-24-2014)

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