# Feeders > Breeding Rats >  Cost effectiveness of raising feeders

## hobbyist

Yesterday I paid $6 for a rat for a new BP I just received
So I have a question for all of you more experienced with reptiles and raising feeders. 
I have 3 BPs right now, and will keep the hatchlings they breed next year. I am considering breeding feeders, and want to know the cost of this before I start. There are many helpful threads in ASF, RATS, MICE, and OTHER FEEDERS, but I didn't find a specific answer to this question:
How much does it cost per rat (normal or ASF) per month? And how many babies can I expect of feeding size per cost of feeding the rats? I believe I read they eat .83 lb of food a month each, and at $28 for 50lb bag, I think 4 females and 1 male would cost 
5 rats * .83 lbs= 4.15 lbs
4.15 lbs* $0.56/lb =$2.32/ month to keep 5 rats.
If gestation is 21 days, and about litter of 7 (or 10 for ASF), assuming 2 rats become preg, it should be 14-20 babies every month, and I don't know how fast they grow up!! 
So here is where I need some help from the pro's. I want to euthanize and freeze them between weanlings and medium size, so does this take a month? two?
if one month: 20 rats ~$9.28 + $2.32(breeders) = $0.60 to raise each rat ready as a feeder! compared to $4 at local pet store.
If two months: 20 rats ~ $23.2 (including breeders) =$1.16 to raise each rat to feeding size. 

please- this is all speculative math: I wanted to see how much it really cost per rat, and how long it takes for baby rats to grow to weanling size, and how long to medium size? Do they eat more in this time? Does it take longer for ASF to grow to the same size? I would rather keep them because of the smell-- how long does it take an ASF to grow up?

I'm not at all worried about being overrun- because I am feeding the others F/T and it sounds really appeasing to have an unending storehouse of cheap frozen food for them. Plus I could separate the colony if it becomes too much still. I have all the materials, so start-up costs are not a factor, and I read somewhere that you can use shredded newspaper as a substrate, if you are willing to change it out more often.

Thank you all so much for your help.

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## JD Constriction

It's definitely cheaper in terms of sheer cost to breed your own feeders (assuming they consistently reproduce)....the problem, atleast for me, is TIME...and how much your time is worth.

The more rodents you breed the more of your time it takes to keep them going.  Cleaning rat bins regularly, changing out waters, rotating boys/girls, pulling babies, running to buy food, freezing feeders, etc.

I spend probably 4 hours per week minimum on ~30 breeder rats and ~30 breeder mice.  Some weeks it's just easier to buy F/T from a rodent supplier but other times it is well worth it  :Smile: 

I'd say start with a small colony and see how you like it....if it fits just expand  :Smile: 

Hope that helps.

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## AndrewGeibel

One of our members here did a great comparison on cost and such and for the life of me I cannot remember who. I know there was also a schedule of what it takes to breed to have rats consistently. I'm sure someone will post it up. I currently have 3 snakes and breed my own rats. I can tell you right now that I do not save money. It costs me more. However I enjoy breeding the rats and I know that my snakes get the healthiest feeders I can give them.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

My cost this year (Bedding + Food) $466.54 which allowed me to produce 1320 feeders ($0.35/feeder)

This does not include the fix cost for the racks.

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## Clear

> My cost this year (Bedding + Food) $466.54 which allowed me to produce 1320 feeders ($0.35/feeder)
> 
> This does not include the fix cost for the racks.


For an estimate on a rack, I spent $5 per tub and I have 7 tub racks. Its $2 per 2x2 that does one tub and $1 per strip that does 1.5 tubs , mesh costed around $12 to do one rack. Thats around $65 per rack for me without water bottles.

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## AndrewGeibel

> My cost this year (Bedding + Food) $466.54 which allowed me to produce 1320 feeders ($0.35/feeder)
> 
> This does not include the fix cost for the racks.


Good point on the racks. I think I spent about 80 dollars on mine. I still would really like to install a watering system. I think that would be around another 50.

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## littleindiangirl

> Yesterday I paid $6 for a rat for a new BP I just received
> So I have a question for all of you more experienced with reptiles and raising feeders. 
> I have 3 BPs right now, and will keep the hatchlings they breed next year. I am considering breeding feeders, and want to know the cost of this before I start. There are many helpful threads in ASF, RATS, MICE, and OTHER FEEDERS, but I didn't find a specific answer to this question:
> 
> How much does it cost per rat (normal or ASF) per month? 
> And how many babies can I expect of feeding size per cost of feeding the rats? 
> 
> *I believe I read they eat .83 lb of food a month each*, and at $28 for 50lb bag, I think 4 females and 1 male would cost 
> 5 rats * .83 lbs= 4.15 lbs
> ...


You can more than likely get away with two females and two males if you can feed FT and only have the 3 BP's.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...=809521#809521

If in case you've read that already, can you perhaps reform your questions a bit clearer? I dont quite understand what you are really all asking.

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## hobbyist

Thanks John! Im definitely going to start out with a small colony and see how it takes off.





> You can more than likely get away with two females and two males if you can feed FT and only have the 3 BP's.
> 
> http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...=809521#809521
> 
> If in case you've read that already, can you perhaps reform your questions a bit clearer? I dont quite understand what you are really all asking.


Connie, thanks for that link! I've read it before, but not too carefully. With them eating .83 lbs per week (not month... oops), it still seems to be cheaper than buying every week, especially with the pinkies I could feed my other snakes at the time being.
Also, quoting your thread,




> To breed = $146
> I assumed 12 breeder females (to produce 10 feeders per week) and 2 males * $4 = $56 *+ Monthly Food/Bedding = $15 * 6 month = $90* (and you have to buy/build housing for all of them = $??)


so it looks to me like the feeding cost for 14 rats is $15 a month-- not too shabby.

To rephrase my other questions:
-What is the maturation rate of ASF vs. regular rats (to full grown ASF, or medium rat size)
-why should you or should you not use shredded newspaper as a substrate?
-How much does it cost per rat (normal or ASF) per month? And how many babies can I expect of feeding size per cost of feeding the rats?

Thanks

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## littleindiangirl

> Thanks John! Im definitely going to start out with a small colony and see how it takes off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Connie, thanks for that link! I've read it before, but not too carefully. With them eating .83 lbs per week (not month... oops), it still seems to be cheaper than buying every week, especially with the pinkies I could feed my other snakes at the time being.
> Also, quoting your thread,
> 
> 
> ...





> I assumed 12 breeder females (to produce 10 feeders per week) and 2 males * $4 = $56 + Monthly Food/Bedding = $15 * 6 month = $90 (and you have to buy/build housing for all of them = $??)


1. Well that 15$ a month is for 14 rats, who produce in total 10 feeders a week. (that assumes one female has a litter a week).

4 weeks in a month * 10 rats per week = 40 feeders a month.

So divide $15 (cost of food and bedding /month) by those 40 feeders (per month) =
*$0.36 to produce one feeder.* (vice versa, costs 15$ for 40 feeders)


2.
ASF's:
When weaned at 21 days will take at least a month for males to be what I consider a meal (roughly 60 grams). Females will take almost 2 months to reach that size.

Domestic rats:
When weaned at 21 days will weigh anywhere from 60-80 grams. 


3.Shredded newspaper is fun for rats and mice as a treat, but isn't terribly absorbent and will stink quickly. Wood shavings soak up moisture better, leading to less smell.

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## littleindiangirl

Whoops! That 15$ a month wasn't from my numbers, it was from Lord Jackel. So lets start from the top again.

*Food:* Mazuri 6F
.83 lbs /rat * 14 rats = 11.62lbs of food per month.

Approx $.50 /lb * 11.62 lbs /mo = $5.81 Food per month

*Bedding:* Equine fresh
Just know this, roughly 15 tub changes per bag of equine fresh.

24 tub changes /mo * 2 bags = $12 equine fresh

Plus your aspen, which have no clue anymore so we'll say $11 /bag...

$28.81 /month to raise 40 feeder rats. 

Not to mention, the baby rats start eating food as soon as they can, so you to take into account that you'll be going through quite a bit more food than is planned.

So I would round it up to $40 dollars a month to raise 40 rats, which is approx $1 dollar each. 

It'd be cheaper for you to buy a year supply online.  :Wink:

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## JenH

That's if you can get them all to eat f/t.  I've got big girls I can't get switched over to f/t so I'm going to start breeding rats.  

I don't have a rat breeder nearby - I have to get them at the pet stores and pay 3.00 - 4.00 per small/med rat.  So - thats 25 to 30 rats at $75 to $100 a month....

I'm going to work on getting my 1.4 rats to expand to 4 tubs of 2-3 girls apiece with one male to rotate by spring.   I can always sell extras....

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## littleindiangirl

> That's if you can get them all to eat f/t.


I always read people saying they want to save money by breeding their own rats, but their animals often only eat live, and they have only a few snakes.... 

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it doesn't end up saving any money breeding domestic rats for a few snakes unless they truly can sell the live extras and make some money back.

If you dont have a buyer that will pay just as much as it costs to raise the feeders, then it's still a loss.

When your breeding domestic rats, they grow too large and too quickly for BP's, and even having only one female, the babies would be too big within one maybe two weeks. 

You'd be better off with mice or ASF's if that is the case since they would never grow too big, and you can get away with only 3 breeding rats and always have live rats on hand.

Breed animals because you want to breed them, not for this idea that it's saving money when you only have a couple of snakes.  :Good Job:

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_Ginevive_ (12-07-2008)

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## Ginevive

Here's my breakdown (not a nervous breakdown.. lol.)

Feeding: I have 12 adult breeder rats (1 male, the rest are females.) Their feed is a mixture of lab blocks, chicken scratch grains, bagged parrot food, and uncooked tricolor pasta. It is hard to break down the monthly costs of individual food ingredients, as, say, the chicken scratch is in a 50# bag and goes further than, say, the pasta, which is in small bags. And I use the chix food for, well, the chickens as well  :Smile:  So I guess, in a year, I spend about $20 a month roughly on feed; this is an over-estimate.

I spend $6 on a bedding bale (shavings) that lasts about 2 months. So.. $3 bedding a month.

$23 per month on rats.

Versus..............!

$5 per subadult rat at the pet store. $3 per hopper rat at said store. 10+ adult snakes to feed, subadults.. '08's.. yeah. And.. that is if I am lucky and they are not sold out! So yea, it is very much more economical for me to breed rats, than buy them retail.

Once in awhile, especially when the hatchlings arrive, I will have to augment my rat supply, as my baby rats get eaten by the hatchlings/juvies. This I solve by trading off normal BP babies to the store, for feeders. So I think that I actually make out, since I get $30 store credit for each snake!

I also live in a pretty rural area, and I do not get into the city often. So, having rats at my disposal here at home, is almost a necessity for me. especially in winter. And I dislike bringing in rats from outside sources, as I have no real way of knowing how they were fed/housed before they got to the store.. and also, they have a high turnover rate, and this leads to stressed rats.. nevous rats.. Mine are born, live, and die here.  :Smile: 

Rat breeding has its trials though. Stillbirths. cannibal moms.. And cages Do need to be cleaned.. I do mine about once a week. It takes about 30 minutes.. nothing hugely annoying, but if you don't want to scoop poop and deal with fast-moving rodents, it might not be for you.

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## Ginevive

> I always read people saying they want to save money by breeding their own rats, but their animals often only eat live, and they have only a few snakes.... 
> 
> Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it doesn't end up saving any money breeding domestic rats for a few snakes unless they truly can sell the live extras and make some money back.
> 
> If you dont have a buyer that will pay just as much as it costs to raise the feeders, then it's still a loss.
> 
> When your breeding domestic rats, they grow too large and too quickly for BP's, and even having only one female, the babies would be too big within one maybe two weeks. 
> 
> You'd be better off with mice or ASF's if that is the case since they would never grow too big, and you can get away with only 3 breeding rats and always have live rats on hand.
> ...



I agree with you on several points. Personally, if I did not breed BPs, or only had 2-3 odd snakes, I would not breed rats. They do outgrow the snakes pretty fast.. unless like me, you need rats of all sizes for different-sized snakes. But yeah.. when I had fewer snakes, I was producing too many rats, and had to either practically give them away to the pet store, or freeze them, where they would pile up in my freezer too fast. On the flipside, if I had not bred so many rats, I would have not had enough feeders for my snakes.. which would lead to me having to pay retail anyway!

I also agree that if someone does not have a driving force to breed rats, besides just feeding snakes, it is not a good idea to breed. I enjoy seeing the babies, their color patterns.. the habits of the adult rats, and the satisfaction of producing litters. It is not just a rat-factory to me that is sheer drudgery to own and clean. Great point!

Owning a boa constrictor is another big reason that I breed rats. The used-up breeders are the perfect size for him.. so they don't go to waste either.  :Smile:

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## greghall

my main reason for breeding my own rats & mainly ASF's(alomost exclusivly asf now) were because of proplem feeders/pet shops charging too much & not having the right size.I caused all kinds of feeding proplem by trying to feed too large a rat :Wag of the finger: ,ASF's are great & I love keeping & raising them as much as my snakes. I like breeding my own feeders they have a great life till its time :Very Happy: .

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## Ginevive

I also agree that ASFs are a good choice, as an alternative to breeding rats. For one, their adult size is perfecr for most BPs.. they won't outgrow your adult BP's feeding needs. I would love to get my hands on some ASFs.. but I can find none locally  :Sad:  If I could, I would breed them.. the ones I had did have a tendency to be slightly more rambunctious when compared to the rats, and turned out to be all males.

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## hobbyist

Thanks for all the good advice!
I think I will start raising ASF rats because I think I would enjoy raising them- plus I would be able to trust my own feeders more than I do the pet stores around here. I still think it'll be more economical for me anyway- but that was the main concern, not the reason for breeding them. 
You have been a lot of help- now to see how it works out....
oh, and I was just given 1.4 mice someone didn't want, so now off to start 2 colonies instead of the planned one...

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## japowell

I was paying out alot of money for rats.but i save so much now that i breed my own, what i do is that i sale some of my rats to pet stores around here. one store i trade rats for bedding and the other rats i sale to pay for rat food. i order my food from zeigler. so it really pays for its self. and all my snakes get the best food that i can give them.

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## Captain23

Love the detailed math you guys went into! I've been breeding ASF's for about 2-3 years and had never really put pen to paper, so to speak. I've always just enjoyed breeding them and actually KNOWING what's going into my 3 BP's. This gives me inspiration to do my own homework now.  :Wink:

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## stickyalvinroll

If you only have 3 ball pythons there is no reason for you to breed your own rats. Buy bulk rats for $1 each....

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## PitOnTheProwl

> Buy bulk rats for $1 each....


You are not going to find _ASF_s that cheap.

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## cchardwick

I'm breeding rats, ASFs, and mice and I can tell you that it is way more work to breed your own rodents than to keep snakes, at least with my setup.  I'm looking at eventually purchasing an ARS rodent rack to simplify things, still can't decide which rodent I like the best.  And ARS makes a mouse rack and a rat rack, I'd probably do the rat rack and put extra bedding in the bottom of the tubs for the mice.

As far as how much it costs to raise your own rodents it all comes down to three things:  Food, bedding, and time.  If you have a lot of free time then that may not be an issue.  I actually really enjoy breeding my rodents so it's kind of an alternative hobby for me, I don't have much time but since I enjoy it there's no problem.  For bedding you may be able to get some free bedding.  You could find a sawmill that has rough sawdust or wood chips, or perhaps you live in a forested area and can purchase or use a wood chipper and chop up branches for free a few times a year.  For food you may be able to get free food from local pet stores, supermarkets, or feed stores, perhaps you can get their newly expired feeds.  If you look at everyone's math it all can vary a lot from person to person depending on what he uses for supplies.  The longer you breed I'm sure the more you will look into cheap or free bedding and feed.

Bottom line is that it could be possible to get really cheap or free bedding and feed and the cost of raising them comes down to just the time you spend taking care of them.

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pariahdog (05-22-2016)

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## Pippin

> Yesterday I paid $6 for a rat for a new BP I just received
> So I have a question for all of you more experienced with reptiles and raising feeders. 
> I have 3 BPs right now, and will keep the hatchlings they breed next year. I am considering breeding feeders, and want to know the cost of this before I start. There are many helpful threads in ASF, RATS, MICE, and OTHER FEEDERS, but I didn't find a specific answer to this question:
> How much does it cost per rat (normal or ASF) per month? And how many babies can I expect of feeding size per cost of feeding the rats? I believe I read they eat .83 lb of food a month each, and at $28 for 50lb bag, I think 4 females and 1 male would cost 
> 5 rats * .83 lbs= 4.15 lbs
> 4.15 lbs* $0.56/lb =$2.32/ month to keep 5 rats.
> If gestation is 21 days, and about litter of 7 (or 10 for ASF), assuming 2 rats become preg, it should be 14-20 babies every month, and I don't know how fast they grow up!! 
> So here is where I need some help from the pro's. I want to euthanize and freeze them between weanlings and medium size, so does this take a month? two?
> if one month: 20 rats ~$9.28 + $2.32(breeders) = $0.60 to raise each rat ready as a feeder! compared to $4 at local pet store.
> ...


I realize that I am posting this reply 8 years after it was posted.. (but still replying for anyone who also comes across this)

The first thing that I noticed and would suggest is instead of looking at a pet store, go to a Tractor Supply store or a Farm and Feed store; 8 years after you posted, all the prices I have found for a 50lbs bag is $14 to $21 at the most expensive.

The normal food intake that works as maintenance for keeping them healthy is different that a pregnant or nursing female. 
- The male can be kept on the same amount of food all the time
- a female for the first week of pregnancy will pretty much be no different in her eating habits 
- a female that is in her second-third week of pregnancy, nursing, or recovering from just weaning pups will be eating A LOT compared to her normal non-breeding eating habits

The next thing I noticed was the food intake you had calculated for raising pups.
Pups are weaned at about 3 weeks, you can either wean them at that time or you can let the mother naturally wean them on her own. (If you are planning on breeding her again for more feeders, I suggest weaning them at 3 weeks so you can re-breed her.)
Pups for their first 2-2.5 weeks ONLY drink milk from their mother, so for the first 2.5 weeks of their life it is still just Mom eating food to be able to produce milk.
At about 2.5 weeks the pups are starting to watch Mom and eat solid foods. 
By three weeks they can be separated and weaned and eat solid foods as their diet.

" I want to euthanize and freeze them between weanlings and medium size, so does this take a month? two?"
- they can be weaned at three weeks! (so you could essentially only have a food bill for your weanlings for the 3-5 days that they start to try solid foods)
- I don't know what you consider to be Medium Sized

"I read somewhere that you can use shredded newspaper as a substrate, if you are willing to change it out more often"
- My favorite bedding is shavings (tractor supply $5-6 for a 4.5 cubic foot bag)
- I like to use news papers on top of that for them to play in and make their nests/beds because it is free (just sign up for a few free or extremely cheap news papers, or collect recycled ones) But I prefer to use paper towels/kleenex/toilet paper for nest material
- The only thing that I don't like about news paper is that I have had problems with using it as nest material for First time moms or when they have a LARGE litter, just because the news paper is so easy to stick, it sometimes sticks to the newborn pups and dries to them, requiring me to intervene with newborn pups....

Good luck! I hope it worked out for you

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## bks2100

> I'm breeding rats, ASFs, and mice and I can tell you that it is way more work to breed your own rodents than to keep snakes, at least with my setup.  I'm looking at eventually purchasing an ARS rodent rack to simplify things, still can't decide which rodent I like the best.  And ARS makes a mouse rack and a rat rack, I'd probably do the rat rack and put extra bedding in the bottom of the tubs for the mice.
> 
> As far as how much it costs to raise your own rodents it all comes down to three things:  Food, bedding, and time.  If you have a lot of free time then that may not be an issue.  I actually really enjoy breeding my rodents so it's kind of an alternative hobby for me, I don't have much time but since I enjoy it there's no problem.  For bedding you may be able to get some free bedding.  You could find a sawmill that has rough sawdust or wood chips, or perhaps you live in a forested area and can purchase or use a wood chipper and chop up branches for free a few times a year.  For food you may be able to get free food from local pet stores, supermarkets, or feed stores, perhaps you can get their newly expired feeds.  If you look at everyone's math it all can vary a lot from person to person depending on what he uses for supplies.  The longer you breed I'm sure the more you will look into cheap or free bedding and feed.
> 
> Bottom line is that it could be possible to get really cheap or free bedding and feed and the cost of raising them comes down to just the time you spend taking care of them.


For me to breed 4 females it only takes like 30-60 minutes for a full clean each week and then 10 minutes every 2 days to refill food and water.  I'd like to make new lids for the 10 gallon tanks they're in so I could set up automatic water and have food hopper I can refill without opening the cage, but it's still easy for this amount.

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