# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Not looking good.. Deformed hatchlings

## Galaxygirl

Our hatchlings began to pip on day 57. It's day 59 now and we took a closer look at the three that have come out... They all have bottom jaws like this... I can see another one pipping also has the same bottom jaw, so that's 4/7 eggs so far.. We had humidity issues about half way through incubation, so we turned off the fan that was in the incubator but there was no temp fluctuations in the incubator that we saw as the thermometer adjusted accordingly. We incubated at 88.7 and did the same last year without any issues. This is the first time we've bred the mother, but this is the second clutch for this father. Queen Bee x Pastel pairing.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (08-02-2016)

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## Daigga

I've seen some people post about this same deformity in hatchlings in the past. Unfortunately, no one seems to know exactly what causes it. Even more unfortunate, but hatchlings like this don't seem able to eat on their own. It's a terrible situation to have to face with a shiny new clutch, but you may end up having to cull the deformed babies. Assisted feedings their entire lives is a terrible thing to subject a snake to.

Very sorry this happened, I wish you the best for the hatchlings still in the egg.

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_Dezoruba_ (08-07-2016)

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## Galaxygirl

Doing some reading, as as you said, Daigga, no one really knows what causes it.. We have another clutch in the incubator that is about a week behind this one. We'll see what comes out in about a week..

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## John1982

That's heart breaking.

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_Dezoruba_ (08-07-2016)

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## Aercadia

> It's a terrible situation to have to face with a shiny new clutch, but you may end up having to cull the deformed babies.


;n;  I can hardly imagine having to make this call.  I know this is an awful subject, but if these babies cannot thrive and culling is the best (if heartbreaking) option, what is the kindest way to do so?

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_Dezoruba_ (08-07-2016)

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## Fidget

What a shame. I'm sure you'll get good support from these forums for whichever of the difficult options you decide to go with.
Better luck with the next clutch.

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## Galaxygirl

Our female that laid these eggs went off feed for about 10 months during the time we were breeding her. She lost a lot of weight and we thought she reabsorbed after her long fast. She surprised us with 7 good eggs, pretty small looking ones with one slug and a boob. 

We turned off the fan in our incubator because the eggs were collapsing at day 10 for our clutch still due to hatch which was around day 19 for this clutch, but the temperatures never seemed to fluctuate, we didn't have any power outages, etc, so we're afraid this may happen again and we're not sure as to what the culprit is. Lack of air flow/oxygen due to the fan being turned off? No one knows and we don't know how to prevent this from happening again..

We've only ever hatched one other clutch and it was from the same incubator, same father, different mother. That clutch had the fan on but also didn't have issues with humidity so we were able to leave the fan on. We burped the eggs maybe once a week or less, took them from the mom the day they were laid, used cling wrap, really stumped as to what went wrong..  :Sad: 

Overall it's been a heart breaking process so far, we don't want to euthanize the hatchlings, but it'll have to be done if they cannot eat on their own..

So far it looks like 4 out of 7 have it. A spider has pipped and I couldn't see well, looks like he has it as well but not as bad. Two more still in their eggs...

If it is some incubator issue, I am now very afraid for the other hatchlings from the other clutch and still don't know how to fix this issue. The probe for the thermostat is kept in the egg tub to ensure the inside of the tub is the temperature it's supposed to be.

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## bcr229

If they all have it and the other clutch turns out fine then it's a problem with that particular pairing.  Sometimes it just happens, there's just no way to predict it.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

Sadly with an underbite that severe they will not be able to eat on their own and starve (been there with 2 animals just like those) the only option will be euthanasia.

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## rlditmars

I'm very sorry to hear of your situation. It is unfortunate. Like others said it may simply be a result of the specific pairing and nothing you did or could have done would have prevented it. 

If you choose to cull the animals which looks like it may be the most humane option, there is an option you might consider which could allow your animals to be of some benefit. I make this suggestion not to start an argument but just as one possible option. If you know someone who is raising kingsnakes then they may be able to use them as feeders. While it seems cruel and contrary to our ways as we all care deeply about snakes, it is no more so than the act of feeding our own animals live rats. I imagine a person who likes hamsters or guinea pigs would see our practices as cruel or barbaric. However we do it because it is what are animals require for food. 

In the end this will be difficult regardless. But, by doing so, you could allow another breeder who cares about their animals to provide live feeders, which is something which they may not have access to on a regular basis. Also, I imagine it is not as quick a death as decapitation, but I wouldn't think it would be terribly drawn out. If a kingsnake will take a dead snake as a prey item, then by all means dispatch them in the quickest most humane way possible. I guess I just see this as a better option than just euthanizing and discarding them. 

Again, I am sorry.

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_Albert Clark_ (08-02-2016)

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## Albert Clark

So, so sorry for the setback with the hatchlings. I really think it was a genetic anomaly of some kind. It sounds like you did everything correctly. Some things with these breeding operations are just out of our control. That is the way you should look at it and don't blame yourself. Best of luck with all your other projects. Stay in peace and not pieces. :Smile:

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## Galaxygirl

Thanks to everyone for the advice and support.. I suspect all of them are affected as there are only two left I haven't seen yet. One is hiding his face very well in his egg and I suspect he is very shy of his overbite... (trying to make the best of this). I'll at least post a photo of them together once they're all out so everyone can enjoy their beauty. It's been a very bittersweet day..

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_Albert Clark_ (08-02-2016)

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## ShayInator

I am so sorry for this! Poor babies, they are very beautiful either way! Pick wisely, and we are here for you! Again, I am really sorry about this, it is not your fault though, and you still hatched some amazing babies.

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## Solarsoldier001

On our first breeding last year. We had seven clutches. Out of those clutches our 4th clutch was a male yellowbelly 100% albino to an albino female. She laid 8 eggs. All eggs were healthy and had viable veins. 20 days into incubation one of the eggs was rotten and died. The other came to day 57 and we cut them. They all appeared healthy. Until I started to noticed their lower jaws just like yours. They all ended up having this deformation. One baby died in the egg. And the 6 others all came out of their eggs. We tried to see if they would feed, but they couldn't. I don't even think that any of them really had tongues. It was probably the hardest clutch I ever had to witness. And even a harder one to make a decision to euthanize. Me and my boyfriend were sad. But I was an emotional sap. I would hold them and love them. But cry at the thought that they would never be able to drink or eat. And that I wouldn't be able to see them grow. My boyfriend called vets to get their opinions. All of them have given him advise on how to euthanize them. We tried to do it but it was hard. We failed the first time because we were weak and thought that maybe there would be a chance they could eat again. But we were wrong. Two other babies died under our watch and they died because we couldn't get them to eat I'm sure. We finally realized how wrong we were and euthanized them the way the vet suggested. It's hard to make that choice since how much we love animals. But we needed to do it the first time and never turned back, because then those babies that suffered would have suffered less pain. Dying from starvation and thirst was terrible. I hope to never have to witness this kind of clutch again. But I know that breeding comes with that territory and we will most likely have to deal with in at some point or another. 

There was no incubation errors or peaks. All the other clutches were super healthy. They yellowbelly fathered another clutch and all the babies were wonderful as well.

We believe that either the pairing was bad or the female is not suppose to produce. But it was her first clutch and we don't know the true answers. But I am so very sorry that you had a clutch like this happen to you. My love and thoughts are with you. 


Sent from iPhone 6 using tapatalk  :Smile:

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_Albert Clark_ (06-16-2015),_Dezoruba_ (08-07-2016)

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## Galaxygirl

> On our first breeding last year. We had seven clutches. Out of those clutches our 4th clutch was a male yellowbelly 100% albino to an albino female. She laid 8 eggs. All eggs were healthy and had viable veins. 20 days into incubation one of the eggs was rotten and died. The other came to day 57 and we cut them. They all appeared healthy. Until I started to noticed their lower jaws just like yours. They all ended up having this deformation. One baby died in the egg. And the 6 others all came out of their eggs. We tried to see if they would feed, but they couldn't. I don't even think that any of them really had tongues. It was probably the hardest clutch I ever had to witness. And even a harder one to make a decision to euthanize. Me and my boyfriend were sad. But I was an emotional sap. I would hold them and love them. But cry at the thought that they would never be able to drink or eat. And that I wouldn't be able to see them grow. My boyfriend called vets to get their opinions. All of them have given him advise on how to euthanize them. We tried to do it but it was hard. We failed the first time because we were weak and thought that maybe there would be a chance they could eat again. But we were wrong. Two other babies died under our watch and they died because we couldn't get them to eat I'm sure. We finally realized how wrong we were and euthanized them the way the vet suggested. It's hard to make that choice since how much we love animals. But we needed to do it the first time and never turned back, because then those babies that suffered would have suffered less pain. Dying from starvation and thirst was terrible. I hope to never have to witness this kind of clutch again. But I know that breeding comes with that territory and we will most likely have to deal with in at some point or another. 
> 
> There was no incubation errors or peaks. All the other clutches were super healthy. They yellowbelly fathered another clutch and all the babies were wonderful as well.
> 
> We believe that either the pairing was bad or the female is not suppose to produce. But it was her first clutch and we don't know the true answers. But I am so very sorry that you had a clutch like this happen to you. My love and thoughts are with you. 
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone 6 using tapatalk


Thank you for your kind words. I have heard of this being more common with Albinos, but maybe that's just coincidence. The mother to this clutch is supposedly proven before and we got her and the sire from the same breeder. I'm not sure if they were bred together in the past, I will ask and see if I get a reply. Due to the severity of their condition it looks like euthanasia is the only option. I am not sure on what is the best way to euthanize and will have to do some research...

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_Albert Clark_ (06-16-2015)

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## Solarsoldier001

> Thank you for your kind words. I have heard of this being more common with Albinos, but maybe that's just coincidence. Due to the severity of their condition it looks like euthanasia is the only option. I am not sure on what is the best way to euthanize and will have to do some research...


I honestly don't know what the right way is. But my boyfriend did a ton of research. And called the vets and talk to a lot of breeders. And we ended up doing it in the freezer. The vet said that's the way they do it. Reptiles are cold blooded and when they get cold they fall asleep. They said if we took them there and paid them the $75 for each animal that's what they would have ended up doing. I don't know if that was the right way. But that's the way we ended up doing it. And being in the position we were in and the emotional state we were in. We didn't want them to suffer anymore. I just hope that was the right choice. Either way it's a terrible situation. With difficult decisions 


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_Albert Clark_ (06-16-2015)

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## anicatgirl

*hugs* I don't know enough about this situation to offer advice, but my thoughts are with you  :Tears:  and with the little ones.

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## bcr229

> I honestly don't know what the right way is. But my boyfriend did a ton of research. And called the vets and talk to a lot of breeders. And we ended up doing it in the freezer. The vet said that's the way they do it. Reptiles are cold blooded and when they get cold they fall asleep.


Several scientific studies over the last few years have shown this to be false and freezing has not been considered a humane form of euthanasia for several years.  The reptiles become torpid but they don't go to sleep, they feel themselves freeze which is not only very painful, but because they're cold they can't move.  Unfortunately a lot of vets haven't gotten the word so the misinformation that freezing is humane continues to spread.

Euthanasia should be as quick and painless as possible for the animal.  For a snake you're looking at pithing or totally destroying the brain.  It's not surprising that people shy away from it - it's brutal, it can be messy, and it's emotionally difficult to destroy a life that you planned months or even years to create.

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_Albert Clark_ (08-02-2016),_AlexisFitzy_ (06-22-2015),CORBIN911 (06-16-2015)

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## Galaxygirl

Here's the group. There's a very tiny Killer Bee in the boob egg, still alive for now.. A beautiful Bumble Bee died in its egg last night, otherwise it looks like we got two Killer Queen Bees,  a Super Pastel Lesser, Spider, and Pastel Lesser? (Or maybe it's just a Pastel Lesser and Lesser)

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_Albert Clark_ (08-02-2016),_AlexisFitzy_ (09-05-2016),slytherin97 (08-04-2016)

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## Asherah

That's really unfortunate, it is a beautiful clutch otherwise. Did they all end up with the same mouth deformity?

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## Tsanford

Did they all have the deformation? 

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## Galaxygirl

Yes, they all have it severely. The Killer Bee in the boob egg seems to be the least affected, but I believe it's because he looks quite underdeveloped and his top snout is still short. I believe the most popular belief for this occurrence is the pairing of those particular parents causes it, but nothing is proven, and I don't think anyone actually bred the same two parents again to try to prove it.. Some people reported this happening when they had a power outage, and some people didn't have any incubator issues and it still happened.

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## Aercadia

:(  I am so sorry for your loss.  I hope your other clutch is unaffected.

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## KitaCat

I'm so sorry.  :Sad:  They are beautiful hatchlings. I hope your other clutch is both beautiful and healthy!

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## CORBIN911

> Several scientific studies over the last few years have shown this to be false and freezing has not been considered a humane form of euthanasia for several years.  The reptiles become torpid but they don't go to sleep, they feel themselves freeze which is not only very painful, but because they're cold they can't move.  Unfortunately a lot of vets haven't gotten the word so the misinformation that freezing is humane continues to spread.
> 
> Euthanasia should be as quick and painless as possible for the animal.  For a snake you're looking at pithing or totally destroying the brain.  It's not surprising that people shy away from it - it's brutal, it can be messy, and it's emotionally difficult to destroy a life that you planned months or even years to create.



Not only that, but during freezing their cells explode pretty much. As he said, Pithing is the best way, Unless euthanized by drugs from vet.

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## Galaxygirl

Does anyone have instructions on how to pith a snake? I can't find any information on it.. Or would it be easier to use CO2? I'm not sure if that's what rodent breeders use, honestly wasn't prepared for something like this.

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## Artemisace

No one's ever prepared for something like that. You have my deepest condolences and I hope your other clutch turns out okay. Don't give up either, I personally wouldn't breed that female again if the male has sired another clutch that was okay. Or maybe put another male with her this year if nothing else to see if it happens again. I know that's not something you'd want top hop through again but I know I would want to know if it was an issue with my female. Again I am deeply sorry for your loss. They are beautiful babies and I wish you the best of luck with your future endeavors 

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## Galaxygirl

Breeder got back to me and said she has had a healthy clutch before with an Enchi male. He says he bred this same Queen Bee to her but she never took. She is capable of producing healthy clutches, and the Queen Bee has as well.

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## Artemisace

> Breeder got back to me and said she has had a healthy clutch before with an Enchi male. He says he bred this same Queen Bee to her but she never took. She is capable of producing healthy clutches, and the Queen Bee has as well.


Then I just wouldn't breed them together in the future. Really a shame that clutch is beautiful. 

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## Galaxygirl

Here's some new photos of three of the babies for anyone curious. They're in shed now. We're not euthanizing until we've determined if they can eat on their own.

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_SCWood_ (06-23-2015),slytherin97 (08-04-2016)

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## Penultimate

Ok, this is just speculation, but does anyone know if this could be a recessive genetic issue? What if both parents carry the issue, and they don't show it because it's recessive? I seem to recall reading about this somewhere before... statistically, if that were the case, not all of them _should_ have the defect, but I have to wonder. If this is indeed a possibility, would it make sense to breed the parents again next season? It seems like you'd want to know if they were carrying this trait or whether it was just a random occurrence. I mean, nobody would want a recessive defect like that being spread around in their collection. To the best of my understanding, this is the first time these two have been paired up. Maybe the other animals these two may have been paired to previously just didn't carry the defect? Again, this is just a bit of guesswork and wondering, and of course it's not guaranteed genetic, but I do feel like I should ask about this.

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## Galaxygirl

Quote from Corey Woods: "I've had it happen here the odd time with clutches. Usually it's not just 1 in the clutch it's almost all of them. I've bred the same pairing year after year to see if it's genetic and it's not genetic. It just happens the odd time.

Most babies won't eat on their own. The best option, for multiple reasons, is to put them down."


Regards,
Corey

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## Solarsoldier001

Good luck with them. I hope for the best


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## SCWood

> Quote from Corey Woods: "I've had it happen here the odd time with clutches. Usually it's not just 1 in the clutch it's almost all of them. I've bred the same pairing year after year to see if it's genetic and it's not genetic. It just happens the odd time.
> 
> Most babies won't eat on their own. The best option, for multiple reasons, is to put them down."
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Corey


Update?

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## Galaxygirl

Thought I'd share my favorite hatchling of the bunch. Super Pastel Lesser?? Are those paradox markings on its lower half?

Babies just shed yesterday.

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## SCWood

> Thought I'd share my favorite hatchling of the bunch. Super Pastel Lesser?? Are those paradox markings on its lower half?
> 
> Babies just shed yesterday.


Acting normal despite deformities?

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## Galaxygirl

> Acting normal despite deformities?


So far they don't move around much. They've only been in their separate tubs for a day so maybe they're just adjusting. We haven't observed them drinking. They don't appear to have tongues. We put a live hopper mouse in each of their tubs and they were not interested/frightened by it. We don't have high hopes but will try one more feeding this week. We're not sure if they can even smell the prey.

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_Albert Clark_ (08-02-2016)

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## D1C

Wow....how sad. 

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## Billy29

This is so sad. 


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## SCWood

> So far they don't move around much. They've only been in their separate tubs for a day so maybe they're just adjusting. We haven't observed them drinking. They don't appear to have tongues. We put a live hopper mouse in each of their tubs and they were not interested/frightened by it. We don't have high hopes but will try one more feeding this week. We're not sure if they can even smell the prey.


Best wishes! Know you're doing the best you can!

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## Solarsoldier001

I don't think they could smell them. My clutch of deformed babies acted like they wouldn't move. Until the rat pinkie was in there crawling. And they seem to run away from them. Do whatever you can to make them feel comfortable. They are such a wonderful clutch. I do hope for the best. 


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## Solarsoldier001

This clutch definitely brings me back to a sad place. I remember holding all 6 babies of mine and looking at how beautiful they are. 

So sad. 


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## bcr229

If they just shed a day or so ago then it's too soon to try feeding them.  Once they shed they go into their own tubs in a hatchling rack, wait a week, then offer the feeder.

Even perfect babies can take a few weeks after shedding before they decide to eat.

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## Galaxygirl

> If they just shed a day or so ago then it's too soon to try feeding them.  Once they shed they go into their own tubs in a hatchling rack, wait a week, then offer the feeder.
> 
> Even perfect babies can take a few weeks after shedding before they decide to eat.


Four of the five passed away last night.

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## bcr229

> Four of the five passed away last night.


I'm sorry.  :Sad:

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## anicatgirl

> Four of the five passed away last night.


I'm so sorry  :Tears:  You did what you could.

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## SCWood

> Four of the five passed away last night.


Chin up! You tried your best and that makes you a great person!

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## Kinkade

Did the final baby end up passing as well?

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## Galaxygirl

> Did the final baby end up passing as well?


Yes, just a day after the others did. Some of them turned reddish pink within hours after dying. My boyfriend's Dr. brother said it sounded like hemorrhaging. I'm not familiar with what happens when they die, but it was very odd..

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## Solarsoldier001

Sorry to hear. 


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## KaylaEliuk

So sorry to hear what happened with this clutch. Fingers crossed for your second clutch!

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## BPSnape

So very sorry that it looks as if you may have to euthanize what you looked forward to all this time, but I will throw in with the people who say there is nothing wrong with doing the humane thing if you are able to make yourself do it.  I've had that decision before me with other pets, and it is always difficult.  I hope that at least one of the clutch is salvageable  :Sad:

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## Artemisace

So sorry to hear they passed  at least they aren't suffering 

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## Kinkade

> So very sorry that it looks as if you may have to euthanize what you looked forward to all this time, but I will throw in with the people who say there is nothing wrong with doing the humane thing if you are able to make yourself do it.  I've had that decision before me with other pets, and it is always difficult.  I hope that at least one of the clutch is salvageable


This post is several weeks old. Most of them passed away on their own at the end of June. 

I'm sorry to hear that it didn't make it   Best of luck to you with further clutches! Did you ever say how the other clutch you had at the same time turned out? I may have missed it in the comments!

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## greco

I just wanted to say thank you for sharing this with us... I really appreciate it. Many people would be too embarrassed or saddened to post about a deformed clutch, but sometimes it happens, even with a good incubation setup.

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## Solarsoldier001

> This post is several weeks old. Most of them passed away on their own at the end of June. 
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that it didn't make it   Best of luck to you with further clutches! Did you ever say how the other clutch you had at the same time turned out? I may have missed it in the comments!


He other clutch came out all healthy. 


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_Albert Clark_ (08-02-2016),Kinkade (07-15-2015)

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## Galaxygirl

Sorry all for the late responses. I haven't been around as much lately. Yes, all passed away a couple days after their first shed, and all within a day of each other. I was hoping to get a clue as to what happened when I posted this thread - to see if anyone knew why they hatched deformed. Unfortunately not much was learned and is still all inconclusive. We're considering keeping the female and breeding her again to another male. The male has had three other healthy clutches with us.

Our second clutch that hatched about 10 days after this one are all doing great. They all hatched healthy and chubby. The biggest one is already at 140g.


Here are some photos incase you've missed my other thread on them:










We got 1 Blue Eyed Lucy, 3 Lesser Pastels, 1 Lesser

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_Albert Clark_ (08-02-2016),_Fraido_ (08-02-2016),Kinkade (07-17-2015)

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## KaylaEliuk

Those are gorgeous babies! I'm glad this clutch worked out for you. Hopefully it is just a fluke thing and your female gives you healthy little ones in the future.

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## joecastro1979

Galaxy girl what type of incubator do you have?


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## Galaxygirl

Homemade incubator made out of a large cooler. Heat tape along bottom, water bottles in there, one shelf and a small computer fan that we turned off because it was dehydrating the eggs - even with cling wrap and tops on their tubs.

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## Matches Beck

Hi folks,
it's been a while since someone posted something, so i'm gonna share my experience on this subject.

I'm pretty sure, that the shark mouth deformation mostly is caused by humidity issues.
I had a Bumbelbelly x Ivory clutch (3 eggs) in 2014, that had the same problem. 2 of the animals peeked out of the egg, the third one died in the egg. The eggs dried out for about a day or two, because i didn't put the top cover of the box on correctly, so most of the humidity got lost too quickly.
The babys would have been 2 gorgeous Bumblebellys and one SpiderIvory (possible BumblebeeIvory). 

This year i had a BlackPastel het. Albino x AlbinoSpider clutch with the same incubation issue. I check the incubator every one or two days. at about week 3 into incubation i noticed that the eggs were dipping and then noticed that all the water in the box was gone (to this day i don't know why, all other clutches were ok). I immediately refilled the box with water and the eggs recoiled a bit, but not to the original form. 2 days ago on day 58 of incubation i cut the eggs just a tiny bit to see if there is anything alive in those eggs. One day later a Classic het. Albino and a AlbinoBlackbee were peeking out. Sadly both with the deformed/way to short jaw. The 2 remaining animals are still sitting in the egg and haven't peeked out jet. Over the night, the first 2 that peeked out thoght it was a good idea to leave the egg. The Classic strangled itself with its ambilical cord and was discovered dead in the morning. The AlbinoBlackbee was still allive. I seperated the AlBb to an other plastic box with wet tissue on the bottom. At this point the animal still hat it's ambilical cord attatched to the yolk that remained in the egg. I honestly expected the animal to be dead in the evening, but supringly it somehow cut the amilical cord and its belly closed up. Then i noticed severe wobbling with the animal and of course the way to short lower jaw. Right now, i'm waiting for the other 2 to climb out of their egg, but i expect them to have the same deformation. I'll keep you guys updated.

In 2014 i've had a second clutch with 2 deformed babys. But i think that's something for an other thread, because they didn't have the shark mouth. But that was the most horrific clutch i've ever hatched. Severe head deformation + belly grown together + heart beating outside of the body. I took pictures and a clip of that, but honestly try to avoid looking at it cause it disturbs me too much.

When i finally figure out how to upload pics here i'll post some of them

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## PitOnTheProwl

> When i finally figure out how to upload pics here i'll post some of them


http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-Post-Pictures

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Matches Beck (08-02-2016)

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## Matches Beck

@PitOnTheProwl: Thanks mate!

Here some pics of the 2014 Bumblebelly x Ivory clutch - with shark mouth






And there are the most recent pics of the Blackpastel het. Albino x AlbinoSpider clutch of 2016 - also with the shark mouth







And here the most horrific animal i hatched - from Enchi x Pastel in 2014 - notice that the animal was still alive and the heart next to it was still beating

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_Albert Clark_ (08-02-2016),_Fraido_ (08-02-2016),_JodanOrNoDan_ (08-02-2016)

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## jasonandreaspeters

:Please:  white anaconda ,oh forget name tyepe man??

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## Matches Beck

> white anaconda ,oh forget name tyepe man??


Sorry mate, i don't get what you're trying to say!?

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## JodanOrNoDan

Good post for people to understand that things can go wrong even with a "safe" pairing.

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## Albert Clark

We can create all the morphs in the world and be successful at it. Then there are those times Mother Nature is going to step in and take control of everything as it relates to morbidity and mortality. She is one of two supreme forces that has the final say.  :Good Job:

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## Kibbleswhites

> Does anyone have instructions on how to pith a snake? I can't find any information on it.. Or would it be easier to use CO2? I'm not sure if that's what rodent breeders use, honestly wasn't prepared for something like this.



Hatchlings are pretty simple.  Put baby in a folded paper towel then into a sandwich bag, note where head is. It will be still and calm because it is dark and safe in there.  Completely smash head with any tool or your thumb.  It does not take much to do and the towel should be wet when the job is done well.  It is very fast and the hatchlings that I have done this way due to severe kinking and jaw deformaties have gone very fast with nearly no twitching afterwards.  Since it is already in a bag, there is no mess or gore to see.  It happens, even when you have done everything right.

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## Fraido

> Hatchlings are pretty simple.  Put baby in a folded paper towel then into a sandwich bag, note where head is. It will be still and calm because it is dark and safe in there.  Completely smash head with any tool or your thumb.  It does not take much to do and the towel should be wet when the job is done well.  It is very fast and the hatchlings that I have done this way due to severe kinking and jaw deformaties have gone very fast with nearly no twitching afterwards.  Since it is already in a bag, there is no mess or gore to see.  It happens, even when you have done everything right.


Eugh. Gosh, is there a less brutal way to do it?

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_Dezoruba_ (08-07-2016)

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## Eric Alan

> Eugh. Gosh, is there a less brutal way to do it?


As brutal as it sounds, complete cranial destruction is the most humane way to do it.

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_Alicia_ (08-05-2016),_Fraido_ (08-03-2016),John1982 (08-03-2016),KaylaEliuk (08-03-2016),PitOnTheProwl (08-03-2016)

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## John1982

> Eugh. Gosh, is there a less brutal way to do it?


When doing at home/emergency euthanasia, the goal is to destroy the brain. You can use a shotgun, a hammer, a screwdriver, an icepick, etc. Unless you're competent in the process, causing broad range damage is your best bet at getting the job done without causing additional pain. I use a pocketknife because I've always got one on me and when I have something that needs to be put down, waiting around isn't doing either of us any favors.

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_Fraido_ (08-03-2016)

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## Fraido

I get that, not something I could ever personally do if I had something like this, though. God forbid I ever give it a go and make a mistake and the thing is writhing around in pain. The thought just makes me cringe. Yeesh!

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## Matches Beck

Afer waiting a few days for the other 2 eggs to hatch i cut them open. Both animals were already dead. The Spider het. Albino looks like it has been dead for a longer period of time, cause it isn't fully developed. The Cinnabee het. Albino looks quite normal, except for the shark mouth.
The only alive animal from this clutch shows a very severe wobble and has also the shark mouth. I'm probably gonna put it down tonight, to end this misery.
I'm so frustrated right now that i'm considering selling all my albino stuff except for one enchi albino female that stands out.  :Mad:

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_AlexisFitzy_ (09-05-2016)

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## bks2100

> Hatchlings are pretty simple.  Put baby in a folded paper towel then into a sandwich bag, note where head is. It will be still and calm because it is dark and safe in there.  Completely smash head with any tool or your thumb.  It does not take much to do and the towel should be wet when the job is done well.  It is very fast and the hatchlings that I have done this way due to severe kinking and jaw deformaties have gone very fast with nearly no twitching afterwards.  Since it is already in a bag, there is no mess or gore to see.  It happens, even when you have done everything right.


How much pressure does it take with your thumb?  This is something I hope I don't have to do ever, but I realize I'll probably do it at least once in my life.  I even felt a little bad killing some rats with co2 even though the alternative would be feeding them live to a snake (which is a much worse way to go imo).  I've read about a hammer and everything but I've hit a few nails before and my aim is not something to brag about.  While I'd hate to feel the squish I'd feel better knowing it was done right and done quickly with the animal feeling as little pain as possible.

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## Galaxygirl

> Hi folks,
> it's been a while since someone posted something, so i'm gonna share my experience on this subject.
> 
> I'm pretty sure, that the shark mouth deformation mostly is caused by humidity issues.
> I had a Bumbelbelly x Ivory clutch (3 eggs) in 2014, that had the same problem. 2 of the animals peeked out of the egg, the third one died in the egg. The eggs dried out for about a day or two, because i didn't put the top cover of the box on correctly, so most of the humidity got lost too quickly.
> The babys would have been 2 gorgeous Bumblebellys and one SpiderIvory (possible BumblebeeIvory). 
> 
> This year i had a BlackPastel het. Albino x AlbinoSpider clutch with the same incubation issue. I check the incubator every one or two days. at about week 3 into incubation i noticed that the eggs were dipping and then noticed that all the water in the box was gone (to this day i don't know why, all other clutches were ok). I immediately refilled the box with water and the eggs recoiled a bit, but not to the original form. 2 days ago on day 58 of incubation i cut the eggs just a tiny bit to see if there is anything alive in those eggs. One day later a Classic het. Albino and a AlbinoBlackbee were peeking out. Sadly both with the deformed/way to short jaw. The 2 remaining animals are still sitting in the egg and haven't peeked out jet. Over the night, the first 2 that peeked out thoght it was a good idea to leave the egg. The Classic strangled itself with its ambilical cord and was discovered dead in the morning. The AlbinoBlackbee was still allive. I seperated the AlBb to an other plastic box with wet tissue on the bottom. At this point the animal still hat it's ambilical cord attatched to the yolk that remained in the egg. I honestly expected the animal to be dead in the evening, but supringly it somehow cut the amilical cord and its belly closed up. Then i noticed severe wobbling with the animal and of course the way to short lower jaw. Right now, i'm waiting for the other 2 to climb out of their egg, but i expect them to have the same deformation. I'll keep you guys updated.
> 
> ...


I have an update on Shark Mouth... So being that I believed this deformity was environmental or some freakish anomaly and not related to the genetics, I bred the same mother again to a different male this time, and as the babies hatched, I've found that only 1 of the hatchlings do not have shark mouth. Everything else from other mother's are hatching fine in the same incubator. So this is the second time in a row for me the same mother has given me shark mouth babies. She had healthy babies with her previous owner apparently, so I don't know what to think. Maybe shark mouth can have a genetic aspect to it, and also be environmental in other cases.

This little sweetheart came from the boob egg, very underdeveloped head with shark mouth, and severe kinking. I thought he would pass on his own but unfortunately was humanely euthanized via pithing.




Bumblebee with a slight shark mouth. It looks worse from the side than from chin up view. This deformity seems way less severe than the previous clutch shown on the first page of this thread, so I am hoping it will make it. From the second photo's view it almost looks like he has a normal lower jaw.

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## dr del

Were the same genes involved in the second breeding?

( I know the mothers will be  :Razz:  )

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## Galaxygirl

> Were the same genes involved in the second breeding?
> 
> ( I know the mothers will be  )


Similar! First sire was Pastel Lesser Spider, second sire was Enchi Lesser Spider

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## dr del

Before giving up on her I'd be heck of a tempted to try a combo without lesser or spider it ( though to be honest I'm more thinking spider ).

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## piedlover79

I think that one baby has a good chance, as long as the jaw opens and closes.  Good luck!

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## Kibbleswhites

> How much pressure does it take with your thumb?  This is something I hope I don't have to do ever, but I realize I'll probably do it at least once in my life.  I even felt a little bad killing some rats with co2 even though the alternative would be feeding them live to a snake (which is a much worse way to go imo).  I've read about a hammer and everything but I've hit a few nails before and my aim is not something to brag about.  While I'd hate to feel the squish I'd feel better knowing it was done right and done quickly with the animal feeling as little pain as possible.


Like squishing a cherry tomato, strawberry, or palmetto bug, not much at all.

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## Asherah

> Before giving up on her I'd be heck of a tempted to try a combo without lesser or spider it ( though to be honest I'm more thinking spider ).


Spider does seem to be a common thread here on all 4 clutches.

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## Matches Beck

It's a shame, that Albino Blackbee would have been gorgeous!
Kinked up, with severe wobble and shark mouth, i just had to put it down  :Tears:

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