# Other Pets > Dogs >  Help for Baby?

## Gooseman

So, I don't know how many of y'all have seen the thread I've posted down in the adoption section, but I have to find Baby a new home or I have to put her down. I made the mistake of taking in another rescue, as well as picking up my beagle from my parents house as I want to make sure she gets her glaucoma meds as she needs them. As good and well as that sounds, point of the matter is, Baby can't really be trusted with other dogs. Things have gone fine now for several months, but recently Baby has been getting rather jealous if she doesn't get all my spare attention and has taken to picking on Cruiser in particular. They have gotten into two fights, the first was stopped as soon as it began, the other only lasted a few seconds before I could stop it, but by that time the damage was done. Cruiser had to go to the vet to get stitched back together, and it nearly killed me when I realized just how irresponsible I was thinking that things would continue to be happy and joyful forever between two dogs with painful histories, no matter how many precautions I took. Also, I was made aware that while I had Baby boarded at the vets office while I went on a cruise for spring break, she somehow managed to get into a altercation with someone's cat. No damage was done, but the fact remains she's on edge now.

I don't really know what to do. All the rescues that I've managed to get ahold of are refusing to take her because either they have more pitbulls then they can home ATM, or they would rather save that spot for a dog without the history she has... as there are plenty of pits that havn't shown violence that also need loving homes... more than there are foster parents. The general advice I've gotten so far is that it would be more kind in the long run to just have her put down, as I cannot give away my other dogs to keep her, nor can I justify continuing to put my other dogs at risk by keeping her.

It drives me mad because, short of my Beagle, Hallie, she's the most attached I have ever been to any animal, and to those that know me, I love every animal that crosses my path. But I cannot justify keeping her. I feel like I failed Baby, but it's beginning to look as though I'm going to have to put her down. Now that I've finally gotten her to come out of her shell, she loves to play with anyone or anything, problem is that she plays really rough. She even scares me sometime, because I know she could do some serious bodily harm to myself or others if she get's carried away. 

I want to find her a home with someone who is experienced with dogs with troubled pasts, and doesn't really have any other animals or small children around the house, but that's a pretty small list. I even called my mom for advice, which I've never done before when it comes to animals well-being, but even she told me that unless I find a hermit on a isolated island, she's just too much of a risk. Anyone have any advice on the route I should take? If you're going to tell me that I'm a horrible person for considering putting her down, please keep that to yourself, because I know your angle, I just don't know what to do anymore.







http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56873
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58051
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59723
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58430
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82906

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## recycling goddess

I know how painful this must be for you (((hugs))) I'm soooooo sorry to read this. I am here for you.

BTW, Baby is looking beautiful in that pink sweatshirt!

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## python.princess

I'm sorry to read about what's going with Baby- I know what you've been through with her and how attached you've become. Sorry I can't really give you any advice- I've never been in that situation. But I wish the best for both you and Baby.

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## Gooseman

Thanks for the support. I mean, I want nothing more than to be able to keep her, but after having to have most of cruiser's ear re-attached and now matching scars on the other side of his face, there's no way I can justify that. On the same token, how can I give up on a bait dog who under my own care got mauled again? as well as the beagle I've had since I was 13?

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## recycling goddess

You can't Ben... it's a horribly painful situation... but you can't.  :Sad:  

(((hugs)))

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## Gooseman

Guess you're right... Gonna hold out a week or so just in case I manage to find someone. Till then, strict quarantine for safety measures.

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## Corvid

I'm so sorry for you.
I worked at an animal shelter for quite some time and during that had to make some VERY difficult decisions.
Just know that whatever comes of this situation you gave her all you could and enhanced her life while doing it. Which was SO MUCH more than she ever had.
-=hugs=-

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## Gooseman

Yea, I may have someone who'll take her, but I gotta do some research about the person to make sure they can handle her.

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## SatanicIntention

Ben, did you ever get her spayed? Just curious.

Start watching Cesar Milan  :Smile:  No one knows APBTs like he does.

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_littleindiangirl_ (04-22-2009),_Spaniard_ (04-21-2009)

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## Gooseman

I got her spayed about 8 months ago

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## wolfy-hound

You also need to consider that even if the new family/person does not have kids, or pets, there still will be a chance that a friend willc ome over with a child, or that a dog will get walked too close while the new owner has her on a leash.  
It's a hard decision to make, but putting her into a new home may not be the best thing for all.

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## recycling goddess

ben, why not email dog whisperer and see if they'll take her?

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## katiadarling

Recycling goddess, I don't mean this to be too mean, I have great respect for you and normally your comments are right on, but honestly, the dog whisperer's methods are highly questionable.  He's gotten a lot of heat from American Humane... I would really not recommend contacting him for Baby.  

Gooseman- I would recommend contacting Bad Rap (www.badrap.org) and seeing if they have any thoughts or contacts that could help you out.  I'm sorry that you're in such a tough situation.

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## recycling goddess

You are allowed your opinion katia... I'd still contact him cause if he'll take her... and she'll have a good life... that's all that matters IMO.  :Smile:

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## littleindiangirl

Goose, I strongly advise contacting Cesar. He doesn't anthropomorphize, and he understands the nature of the dog pack. 





> but honestly, the dog whisperer's methods are highly questionable.  He's gotten a lot of heat from American Humane... I would really not recommend contacting him for Baby.


Treating an animal and expecting it to react like a human is doing the animal a huge disservice. Respect the nature of the animal, which I believe is EXACTLY what Cesar does.

The American humane society believes that we should respond to and train animals like humans in fur coats and expect them to respond to it. That to me is *not* responsible, and is severely misguided at best.

Also, the AHS believes his methods are inhumane? Where in the world do they get this? He does not physically abuse any animal, he respects, treats them with love and rewards a calm and well adjusted behavior. 

Maybe I'm just going on a tangent, but I have no respect for people that expect dogs to act like humans with fur, and are frustrated when the dog is wild, unbalanced shy or aggressive because of the lack of leadership from the human. That to me is completely irresponsible. 

You can't heal an animals behavior by just loving it. That is not what a dog needs is just love, otherwise we wouldn't have hundreds of thousands of dogs in shelters or dropped off because their owners couldn't handle them.  :Mad: 


Ben, I sincerely hope you are blessed with a solution to this problem, baby is a wonderful girl and you have been incredibly kind to her through everything.  :Hug:

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_catawhat75_ (04-22-2009),_python.princess_ (04-22-2009),_recycling goddess_ (04-22-2009),_SatanicIntention_ (04-22-2009),_Spaniard_ (04-22-2009),_Wh00h0069_ (04-22-2009)

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## katiadarling

right.... taking a dog that has had issues with other dogs and trying to get a guy who has... 50 dogs (just an estimate, but he has A LOT) to take it and work with it... to me that's asking for trouble.

I don't think treating dogs like "humans in fur coats" is the way to go and I don't believe I said that Cesar abuses animals... I said that his techniques are questionable.  I stand by those remarks.  One example of his techniques being questionable is that one show featured a chihuahua that bit anyone who wasn't its owner.  His advice was for the dog to be handed off to other people and held until it stopped trying to bite.  To me this sounds like a recipe for disaster and I think that there are much better solutions that could be tried first, such as not allowing the dog on furniture, not holding the dog, training the animal and basically making it work for its keep.  The dog obviously has been allowed to think it rules the household, which is likely to be one of the main reasons it tries to bite.

I have two dogs, both of whom I've trained myself and they are awesome animals.  I get comments all the time about how amazing they are.  littleindiangirl, I have to say I lost a lot of respect for you from your tangent and your generalization of me based on my posting a widely held belief.  I live in an area where dogs are often treated like children and honestly, it makes me sick and it doesn't do anything good for the dogs.  I still don't think that Cesar Milan is the right guy to teach America how to handle their dogs, his methods might work for him, but I don't think they should be applied on a broad scale by people who are inexperienced with dogs.

anyway, gooseman, still hoping for the best outcome for Baby.

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## littleindiangirl

> right.... taking a dog that has had issues with other dogs and trying to get a guy who has... 50 dogs (just an estimate, but he has A LOT) to take it and work with it... to me that's asking for trouble.
> 
> I don't think treating dogs like "humans in fur coats" is the way to go and I don't believe I said that Cesar abuses animals... I said that his techniques are questionable.  I stand by those remarks.  One example of his techniques being questionable is that one show featured a chihuahua that bit anyone who wasn't its owner.  His advice was for the dog to be handed off to other people and held until it stopped trying to bite.  To me this sounds like a recipe for disaster and I think that there are much better solutions that could be tried first, such as not allowing the dog on furniture, not holding the dog, training the animal and basically making it work for its keep.  The dog obviously has been allowed to think it rules the household, which is likely to be one of the main reasons it tries to bite.
> 
> I have two dogs, both of whom I've trained myself and they are awesome animals.  I get comments all the time about how amazing they are.  littleindiangirl, I have to say I lost a lot of respect for you from your tangent and your generalization of me based on my posting a widely held belief.


Katia,

If you lose respect because of me voicing MY opinions, that's okay by me. We all have the right to discuss on a forum.  :Good Job: 

However, I DO have to point out I criticized the AHS, Not* you* personally. I can't control what you read between the lines, however I did not quote you to criticize you, frankly, you did not mention one word of how you train animals, or even if you had an animal, and I don't believe I had even hinted at your methods in any way shape or form.

Maybe next time, read the words written there?  I realize it says "you", but it was not meant for *you* katiadarling, but the people that believe loving an animal is enough to fix it.


I also feel the need to point out that the programs aired on TV are short glimpses, and are edited to make it suitable as a tv program. We really have no way of knowing everything that goes on behind the scenes.

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## Spaniard

I think Ceasar is a genius when it comes to dogs and dog pyschology.  He's helped many families learn how to better enjoy their pets and vice versa.  I think his methods are pretty rational and his results cannot be disputed.

Goose I think contacting him would be a great idea and you certainly have nothing to loose trying.

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_littleindiangirl_ (04-22-2009)

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## katiadarling

> Maybe I'm just going on a tangent, but I have no respect for people that expect dogs to act like humans with fur, and are frustrated when the dog is wild, unbalanced shy or aggressive because of the lack of leadership from the human. That to me is completely irresponsible.


littleindiangirl-  this is the passage that got me.  You quoted my post and then went on to say, ya da ya da, I have no respect for people that expect dogs to act like humans... perhaps I read too deeply, but I certainly based my comments on what you said and what appeared to be (based on you quoting me) a direct jab at me.

Here's a quote from Urbandawgs.com about training techniques, "The force-free movement gains momentum every year and a sure sign of this is that many trainers in the other camps resort to murkier and murkier euphemisms to disguise their more violent practices and retain their market share. Stressed dogs aren't "shut down," they're "calm." It's not strangling, it's "leading." As a committed devotee of the "dog-friendly" camp, I am therefore, along with my colleagues here at The San Francisco SPCA, somewhat agog at the stunning success of "The Dog Whisperer". This is pretty ferocious stuff by anybody's standards. The National Geographic Channel even runs a disclaimer banner at the bottom of the screen admonishing people to "not try this at home," a warning notably absent on home improvement shows or "Nanny 911". Many have suggested that the cloaking of corporal punishments and hazing in mystical language, promise of instant results, high octane telegenicity of Cesar Milan and lucky connections with Los Angeles celebrity clients are sufficient explanation for the Dog Whisperer phenomenon."

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's opinions.  I prefer a primarily positive reinforcement based training technique and have seen it work very well for my dogs and for many of my colleagues animals, but if you want to endorse old-school fear based training that's fine by me. I still fail to see how aggressively confronting a fearful dog is a good idea, let alone a good idea to teach the general public, but who am I to care if people do things that result in them getting bitten...

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## littleindiangirl

Well, at least we understand your position.

I completely disgree with your opinion and the AHS's opinion about Cesar's methods. 

However, I DO agree that there is not ONE correct method to rehabilitating dogs and training. I personally completely support Cesar's calm assertive approach.  :Good Job:

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## Spaniard

I don't think aggressive confrontation is part of Ceasar's vocabulary.  Have you watched the show at all? 

80% of the dogs on that show have their problems remedied by being taken on a walk.  How is that so horrible?

Sure some of those red zone cases are pretty intense but what do you expect... 

Other training methods may work but I don't think anything addresses the core of the problem as quickly as Ceasar.  Rules, boundaries, limitations, and calm assurance, I still don't get what is so cruel about this?

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## katiadarling

Spaniard- I have watched his show thanks, but only a few episodes as it was not an enjoyable experience.  Your comment that 80% of cases have their problems remedied by being taken on a walk is, I believe far from the truth.  As littleindiangirl said, "I also feel the need to point out that the programs aired on TV are short glimpses, and are edited to make it suitable as a tv program. We really have no way of knowing everything that goes on behind the scenes."  Yes many American dogs are in bad need of exercise and getting that can help to alleviate their issues, but I wouldn't say that solves them completely.

I would say that doing things like alpha rolling a dog with fear-based issues is an aggressive confrontation, as is staring down a dog.  Whether he explicitly says that on his show or not (and I'm sure he wouldn't) that is in effect what he is doing.

That is wonderful that his methods work for him, but the fact of the matter is that there is a lot of evidence out there that supports the positive reinforcement method.  I have less of a problem with Cesar performing the methods than I do with the fact that un-trained people are trying to duplicate them in very dangerous situations.  It is well known that a stressed, fearful dog is more likely to bite and I feel that his methods put people in danger of being bitten.

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## Spaniard

We obviously will not see eye to eye, I do however suggest you watch more than a few shows before you pass judgement.  I've seen almost all of them and in doing so you do get to see more of the behind the scenes rehabilitation he does at his facility.  Some cases where dogs needed to go to his facility for a few weeks to be part of a pack and the methods he uses there.  Such as play time which is a positive re-inforcement as well as the affection he shows when the dogs enter a calm state of mind.

One thing is for sure, I've never seen a dog he did not help become a happier member of the family.  His follow up shows on past cases is proof that not only did he help the dog but train the people to properly maintian the dogs physical and mental health.

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## katiadarling

I think you're missing the point.  I think it's great for him to use the techniques if they work for him and he can do so safely.  I don't think it's good for people with no dog training experience to try to use his techniques at the risk of them getting bitten.  As littleindiangirl said, there are many different training styles.  My recommendation would be that people only use physical dominance based training styles under the close guidance of a trainer.

I don't feel the need to watch his show and I think I have a very good grasp of his training techniques.  Obviously they work for him... I just don't think they should be tried by someone who is a novice at training.

As for your last comment, I would guess that his show only airs the success stories.  Sadly, not all dogs can be rehabilitated.

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## Spaniard

Katia,

My point being that you're doing a lot of guessing without actually seeing the show.  Obviously not all dogs can be rehabilitated.  However condoning his methods without even seeing a bulk of his shows is wrong. I think Goose can benefit tremendously by trying to contact him.  Your views which were based on little personal experience could have deterred him for trying this avenue for help.  Maybe we should start a new thread about Ceasar because after all this thread was about helping Goose out with his situation.  As far as I'm concerned I'm done discussing it here.  Goose I wish you the best of luck in dealing with such a hard dilemma.

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## Jenn

Rehabilitation or no, the issue remains that owning a pitbull in most states will void your homeowners insurance. I couldn't imagine being in your situation. My heart goes out to you friend. Good luck.

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## Gooseman

I am very grateful for everything written in this thread as it's the kinda help I was looking for. At this point in time I think as many possible opinions or ideas that are constructve for baby to be very helpful. After doing sveral more hours of research on the matter and what to do it has given me alot of hope. Much of what I have read has been very positive. Though I have had a hard time locating a no kill shelter that will help take her, I have by their own guidlines been given more of a reason to not give up on her. The big thing is that she hasnt shown any aggression towards humans, just other dogs. But even then it's playtime gone too far rather than an aggressive dog seaching for a fight. By these standards she's not a lost cause, only a dog that requires a more experienced trainer/owner than myself. I honestly don't have a clue how or if a trainer could stop or control her aggression other than my keeping her isolated from other dogs, as it's not outright aggression if there is such a thing. So in my mind I think shell be a perfect companion for someone without any other dogs or small children who she could rough house with, problem is finding a safe suitable home before another incident occurs.

 My only reservation is that I would like a pro see if they could teach her not to go too far when playing. As I have to be careful playing with rope toys etc, as at times I worry shell go for the rope and latch onto my arm instead.When I see her getting dangerously riled up playtime is over, I just would like to find a way that would keep her from getting to that breaking point before I find her a new home. Get what I'm saying?

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## Jenn

Goosman don't confuse training with temperment. I have the worlds biggest love sponge and he is very very well trained. However, I also saw him take down a full grown turkey from mid-flight and rip it in half.

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## Gooseman

It sucks because she has come so far from when I first picked her up. She finally loves other people and dogs, problem is she may just a little too much!

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## katiadarling

IMO that's actually great that it seems to be an arousal thing rather than an actual aggression thing, arousal is something that can be worked with more than aggression can.  Have you tried finding a trainer in your area to consult with?  A local humane society might be able to give you some good leads.

I found this pdf, http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/LoweringArousal.pdf  I haven't worked with dogs with arousal issues, but the thoughts behind this training seemed interesting.  

The trainers I've worked with suggest scattering treats as a way to lessen upward motivated arousal (as long as the dog is treat motivated and isn't so aroused as to not notice when the treats are scattered.)  This is the link to the trainers at the humane society I worked at http://www.boulderhumane.org/hsbv/go.asp?mode=tc  They are really good and might be able to point you in a direction you haven't tried yet.

Rehoming her seems like a definite possibility as long as you can direct the new owners about appropriate behaviors and risky situations and they seem solid and responsible.

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## Gooseman

> Goosman don't confuse training with temperment. I have the worlds biggest love sponge and he is very very well trained. However, I also saw him take down a full grown turkey from mid-flight and rip it in half.


Yea I understand. Which is why I have doubts that one could really change that aspect about her. But she's cone so far with training to change how she interacts with the world around her with positive results. Now after a year and a half of work she's finally really playing, I wonder if there's now a way to put a check on how rough she gets without making her think I'm punishing her for playing at all.

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## katiadarling

out of curiosity, what is your response when she gets too rough when playing?

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## littleindiangirl

That's a good idea. Lets start a thread about dog training! Nothing like a hot topic to keep the forum going.  :Good Job:

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## littleindiangirl

> Yea I understand. Which is why I have doubts that one could really change that aspect about her. But she's cone so far with training to change how she interacts with the world around her with positive results. Now after a year and a half of work she's finally really playing, I wonder if there's now a way to put a check on how rough she gets without making her think I'm punishing her for playing at all.


She is a pitbull through and through  :Very Happy: . That intense concentration on killing the toy is always going to be strong with her.  

I think instead of reinforcing her natural drive to kill and shred and tug on a rope toy, put her energy towards retrieving or other doggy stuff, (even though she may not give a rats arse if you throw something and expect her to retrieve it.  :Razz: ) 

I believe if she uses her energy in other activities daily, and it's made explicitly clear about the attitude of a pit bull, she would be able to be rehomed with an experienced and willing pit owner.

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## littleindiangirl

> I think you're missing the point.  I think it's great for him to use the techniques if they work for him and he can do so safely.  I don't think it's good for people with no dog training experience to try to use his techniques at the risk of them getting bitten.  As littleindiangirl said, there are many different training styles.  My recommendation would be that people only use physical dominance based training styles under the close guidance of a trainer.
> 
> I don't feel the need to watch his show and I think I have a very good grasp of his training techniques.  Obviously they work for him... I just don't think they should be tried by someone who is a novice at training.
> 
> As for your last comment, I would guess that his show only airs the success stories.  Sadly, not all dogs can be rehabilitated.


I have to disagree once more. I have never seen him aggressively confront a dog in the red zone. In fact, he points out to most owners that this is the wrong way to confront a riled up and aggressive animal.

Maybe you consider all confrontation as aggressive. (which, from the looks of this thread, I do have to seriously consider true). 

Confronting an animal is not an attack, and he has never done that with a dog. He aims to be calm and assertive. Calm, you aren't adding fuel to the fire. This involves body language, tone of voice and movements. Cesar strongly advises that giving the wrong energy to the situation only makes it worse. 

When you confront an already freaked dog, being aggressive is only going to make the situation worse and he goes on to explain this to the humans that think it's the only way to get the animal back is by being more aggressive than the dog, like a "fight" of who can be the worst. 


Things you have come here with as "proof", I have honest to God never seen him do or teach other's to do (such as confronting a dog aggressively), which leads me to believe you really haven't watched.  :Confused:

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_recycling goddess_ (04-22-2009),_Spaniard_ (04-22-2009)

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## Muze

> She is a pitbull through and through . That intense concentration on killing the toy is always going to be strong with her.  
> 
> I think instead of reinforcing her natural drive to kill and shred and tug on a rope toy, put her energy towards retrieving or other doggy stuff, (even though she may not give a rats arse if you throw something and expect her to retrieve it. ) 
> 
> I believe if she uses her energy in other activities daily, and it's made explicitly clear about the attitude of a pit bull, she would be able to be rehomed with an experienced and willing pit owner.



I agree 100%.  I don't have Pit Bulls, but I have had 2 American Eskimos, a breed lovingly known as 'face biters' by vets, groomers, etc., and my success with them was to always let them know who the leader of the pack is (by making them sit before being fed, taken for walks, allowed to play with a toy, etc), by spending time with them through play sessions and grooming sessions, and by tiring the heck out of them through really long walks.  They both (one now lives with my ex) can be around other dogs, cats, and children.  

From what I've read on this thread, it seems Baby has hope.  But I would recommend someone w/o children or other pets, who is familiar with strong breeds like Pit Bulls, Rotties, etc., maybe even worked with abused dogs before, and who has time to work with her & let her expend a lot of energy.

I do wish you the best of luck because it is a terrible situation that you are in.

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## littleindiangirl

> I agree 100%.  I don't have Pit Bulls, but I have had 2 American Eskimos,


LOL, @ "I have had 2 American Eskimos". First thing to pop into my mind was a little Eskimo boy in an igloo.  :sploosh: 

I've always heard that breed is always gogo a-go-go.  :Razz:

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## katiadarling

> I have to disagree once more. I have never seen him aggressively confront a dog in the red zone. In fact, he points out to most owners that this is the wrong way to confront a riled up and aggressive animal.


There are ways to confront a dog aggressively without being physical.  

The bottom line is that my understanding of dog behavior and training are different than your understanding and so agreeing to disagree is the best that will come out of this.

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## Muze

> LOL, @ "I have had 2 American Eskimos". First thing to pop into my mind was a little Eskimo boy in an igloo. 
> 
> I've always heard that breed is always gogo a-go-go.



Haha...I always get weird looks from people when I say that.

Go-go-go is absolutely correct.  The older boy (with my ex) is pretty calm, but he's also close to being in his teens (not sure exactly since he's a rescue), but the girl is going to be 7 this year & she is non-stop.  She has way more energy than our soon-to-be 2 yr old Chihuahua.  She tires him out in a few minutes!

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## wolfy-hound

Assertive is not aggressive.
Caesar is a good people trainer, and I've never seen him become aggressive with any dog ever.  And I understand the difference between physical and non.  He's not aggresive, he's in charge.

Scattering treats when a dog is behaving "aroused" or aggressive, or out of control is only going to train the dog that good things happen when they get into that state.

Someone like Caesar would be the only case I would see as appropriate for a home, since as stated before.. a new home with no small children or pets is NOT safe, because a friend can come over with kids, or a neighbor's pet can be nearby.

Dogs don't "play" so rough that they remove half an ear.  That's aggression.  When you're worried that she'll grab you accidentally and do damage, that's a aggression issue.  It's not the same as a dog that just jumps on and attacks someone(some pet).  But it is still aggression.  She has a instinct to grab and kill that is stimulated when she grabs something, especially something living.

You have a dog with aggressive issues, and calling it "arousal" or saying it's a play issue will not change the fact.  I would call Caesar's place up and see what they tell you.  They might be able to point you to a trainer closer to you that is able to deal with "red zone" dogs.  You can't intimidate her out of it, and you can't love her out it, you can only deal with the honest truth of her nature, and hopefully deal with it in a safe manner.
Good luck.

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## Gooseman

> out of curiosity, what is your response when she gets too rough when playing?


When play sessions are good she grets a treat as reward, when they arnt, play time stops immediatly when it gets rough, i tell her to sit which she almost all the time till she calms then she's in the kennel. There is probably a more constructive way to go about it, but I dunno how.

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## katiadarling

That sounds about like I would do.  When play gets too rough and you stop to let her calm down, I might start play again to reward her for being calm.  Hard to say not being in the situation though.

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## Gooseman

Good to know I'm not doing something way off base. 

The thing now is that I want to continue to work with her. Kinda a pride thing but I don't want to pass her off, I want to finish what I started. But even if I'm able to help how she interacts with humans while playing, there's no garuntees. And even less so with how she interacts with other dogs. So my reason for needing to find her a new home still stand. What I've gained is knowledge that true lovers of pits believe there to be a good fit out there. That to the right person shed be respected and treated as such. Problem is, I can't seem to find a place/person willing to make the effort when there's soooo many pits out there with less training needs to make a safe pet. So I've made a complete loop back to where I began.

Except now I have Caesar's place to call and see if they have any advice.

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## pitbulls4me

I wont comment on any fo the Cesar Milan talk but I will comment on the Baby issue.

She is a pitbull right? And she is not liking your other dogs right? She is doing what she is bred to do. People get this breed and think that if they raise it around other dogs and love it that it will love other dogs too. Not the case when dog aggression is bred into them. Thats when owning a pitbull in a multiple dog/animal household, you take on more responsiblity. We have 3 pitbulls and 4 (soon to be 5) other dogs in our house. Does everyone get along? No.... if fact one of our pitbulls killed one of our dogs because we were too nieve and thought that she was raised with other dogs and being 3 years old that she wasnt ever going to be dog aggressive. We found out the hard way. We now crate and rotate. So only certain dogs are out at the same time and we never give the dogs any reason to fight (so no toys left down, we dont eat when they are out, and everything is low key as high energy and excitement gets them worked up). I say that if you got the dog and you knew its breed you kind of owe it to the dog to keep her safe and take the responsibility that comes with owning a dog let alone a pitbull. 

I am a dog trainer and do pitbull rescue. I have dedicated my life to educating people who own the breed or show interest in it. I also make sure dogs are safe and happy. I made mistakes but have learned from it and share my stories in hopes that someone else will in turn learn from that. I in no way mean to down talk you but it is a little frustrating when people get the breed and then expect the exact opposite of what the dog was bred for. I will say there are exceptions as there always is with anything and there might be that handful of pitbulls out there who dont show a lick of dog aggression (DA). I kept my pitbull who killed our Boxer and she is a great dog today. We worked on heavy obedience training and now she can go for walks and not act like a maniac trying to get at the other dogs but I dont let her meet any of them, she just has to tolerate going by them. 

By the way where are you located?

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## pitbulls4me

I also was re-reading everything and you mentioned about rough play with you... Can you give me more detail on that? A lot times it is a lack of respect and can be fixed with some easy training. You can control so much by changing something so small. Dont be afraid of her, it will show to her and will make her more uneasy and on edge. She is looking for a reaction from you. If she plays to rough and you squeal or pull back or push her down, thats all play to her. Also with her wanting all your attention it is not jealousy as dogs do not have the same emotions people do at all. That is a dominance issue. I think she just needs some good training and needs to be kept away from the other dogs. 

Of course I am not you and whatever decision you decide to make will ultimately be the best for you and Baby. Good luck and I know its a tough spot to be put in. They are not an easy breed and definitely not for everyone (you may have just figured that one out with your situation as it is all too common)

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## Gooseman

Tina, thanks for writing. 

When I first picked Baby up off the road, I'll admit I've had very little experience with pits or other large agressive dogs, but much has changed over the past year and a half I've spent from her. I do not know if you've gone through the threads I have linked to, all the ones in which I had asked for advice on the board are there but they kinda document the first few months of me having her, and how I had to learn quickly not to show her fear etc. I used to be a Petco employee, I am not by ANY measure saying that gives me any credibility or experience with other dogs, but I did make a few friends in the College Station, Texas area from the shelters that would come up to adopt animals out. I pumped them for as much info on helping Baby overcome her fear of the public etc and I think I've taken more from my experience so far than she has from me.

I am going to try and not sound argumentative because that's really not my point. But as much as I may sound like I think love and affection will make her a joyous lapdog, I have NEVER expected anything like that from her. Within the first couple weeks she scared any chance of that outta me when I found out she had a great dislike of baseball caps. Things had just gone sooo smoothly with Baby that when another pit rescue came along, Cruiser, I'll admit I got a little cocky and was a little niave thinking it would work out. 

In all honesty, although Baby and Cruiser live in the same household they rarely were allowed in the same room as each other, and usually only on calm occasions. Baby is just too hyper now that she's come out of her shell, she's just not allowed in certain areas of the house for obvious reasons. Cruiser on the other hand just spends his days laying on his side staring at you.... for hours... he's a lazy bum, but I blame that on the heartwarm meds he's on. They have seperate crates even on other sides of the house. It's not like I just brought home another pit mix and expected them to share the same quarters and for them to get along just fine and dandy. Never really intended for them to cross paths too often. But the first time they fought i made the mistake of taking them to go potty at the same time and this last time I left them in the living room together for a few moments while I went to the kitchen to grab a drink... literally out of their sight for no more than 10 seconds to grab a coke from the fridge, and that's all it took for Baby to be holding on to cruiser by the ear. And Hallie the beagle... well, she goes where cruiser goes. Those two are like soulmates lol. Except under no circumstances do Hallie and Baby hang out. even for a moment.

Yes, looking back both instances were totally preventable had I not slacked off a few times. Both of which were my fault and were instances in which I broke my own rules. So as I said when I started this thread, I love Baby, and if she was my only dog things would be fine and dandy, but I messed up and thought that I could pull it off. So it's not really fair that my mistakes are forcing her out of a home, which I'll openly admit, but the alternative isn't any better. It's kinda odd... the more time I spend with them, the more I want to keep her... I don't want to rehome her because she scares me, but rather because I've allowed two mishaps already, the third may be fatal. And that's unacceptable in my book. If I can find her a good home then there's no point in putting Cruiser and Hallie at risk.

And I don't openly show that I'm afraid of her, and to say I'm afraid may not be the best way to put it. It's like watching mythbusters and they shoot a pig carcass (to simulate the human body) with a Pirate ship cannon and your just in awe of the destructive possibilities... and then you look at your feet and there's a cannon just laying there... loaded. You respect that kinda power. You know what it could do if it got unleashed on you. It doesn't mean you go cry in your room, just that your fully aware of whats in front of you. 

The playing that in my mind crosses the line between good/bad playtime is when she decides she WANTS that frisbee... or that ball... or that rope... and she'll lunge towards them with everything she's got, and let's be honest... she has poor aim. She doesn't so much direct her aggression at me, so much as anything that stands between her and whatever we're playing with. But one thing that I am very proud of is that she knows that when I say sit, she'll stop MOST of the time on the first call. She may fidget and whimper a bit cause she still wants the toy, but as long as I remind her she's supposed to be sitting, there she'll sit until the mood passes, or she ends up in the kennel. So it's not really an intimidating me into letting go, but rather... I'll shut my eyes and leap in it's general direction, but if I grab your hand... whoops, sorta deal. So I reward the times we play and she doesn't leap at me, and the times she does... gametime over.

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## pitbulls4me

I totally understand where you are coming from as I was there with my little female I got, Ellie. She was 4 1/2 month olds, 11 pounds, had a ruptured eye, chained to a tree and scared out of her mind. She was afraid of everything and her own shadow. With time and training I brought her around, I also socialized her with other dogs of course to no avail. It only took her a few weeks before she was comfortable with me but 4 months before she even stopped growling at my boyfriend when he walked in the door and I think another couple months before he could pet her. I had her up for adoption as I had no intentions on keeping her. In the 8 months that I had her as a 'foster' she attacked my 9 year old pitbull but she was the one who walked away hurt. We learned from that. Then with trying to adopt her out and people knew that she didnt like other dogs and she was a shy mess with new people there was no hope for this poor girl who had absolutley no chance when she was confiscated from her original owners. So again I failed and let the dogs outside together to go to the bathroom because she liked my mom's dogs and my other pitbull (I guess she was more dog selective back then) and thats when she killed our Boxer. Again completely my fault. I still have her, no we take extra precautions when we let her out and everything but she is my absolute favorite dog! We went through professional (and I am not talking about Petsmart) training and it helped tremendously. 

Thats kind of my story and my real introduction into the breed but we found out the hard way in situations like yours. She was adoptable perse but I loved that little dog and didnt think after all she had been through that she should die a short life. 

Now when I was saying that everyone tries to train these dogs with love and whatever it wasn't directed towards you in the least bit as I have no clue on how you are handling things, I was just speaking in general. I think now that you have 2 pits you need to be on your toes even more... Cruiser might be ok with Hallie right now... but maybe not tomorrow. I would keep everyone totally seperate until you figure out what you are going to do or forever. 

With the rough play time and her accidentally getting your hands, stop using your hands. Dont give her the opportunity to mess up. If you know she does something you dont like when you do this one thing then dont do it at all. IF you want to play with the rope toy, create a flirt pole. A flirtpole is a PVC pipe with a cap on the end and rope running through it with a toy on the end of the rope. You swing it around and pitbull goes crazy trying to get it! They are fabulous and I am lazy so when it comes to excercising my dogs and I dont have to do much, oh goodness do I love it. 

I hope this helps some, as you have lots of options. I just see a pitbull who has many marks against her to the publics eye. With all the BSL going on it makes it even harder on you because if you adopt her out and she grabs someone's hand by accident trying to get a toy the press will have a field day with that. I honestly think she is a normal pitbull with a little bit higher drive especially now that she has a few fights under her belt. I know you will make the best decision you can for both you and her. If there is anything else I can do or have any questions please let me know. i will be following this thread as well.

Also a good forum to join is Pitbulltalk.com or pitbullforum.com. Both have a lot of experienced people on it, maybe you can find someone in your area to help you out either with rescue or professional training.

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## Gooseman

That's actually a pretty neat trick with the toys. I'm gonna have to look into trying it. 

Once again, thanks everyone for the input, truly!

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## pitbulls4me

How are things going? How are you doing as i know this is all mentally and emotionally straining?! Hope all is well.

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## Gooseman

Right now things are going... That's about the best description I've got. The dogs never see each other anymore just to be on the safe side as I search for a new home for Baby as well as doing more research on working with dogs with aggression issues. I have no intention of playing the odds in trying to make this situation last forever, but rather just want all the information I can get my hands on. What it's coming down to is trying to find an experienced owner for her. And in a college town that's hard to find. I mean, there are plenty of people who have worked with dogs, but most are college aged students and I would have a hard time giving her to a new home with a 20 yr old. Mostly because Baby has over 10 years left in her, and sometime during that period they may want to have a kid and I don't want that becoming an issue. I may have unreasonable expectations, but I'd rather have those then just handing her over to the first person who'll take her.

Mentally it's all turned to a gray area. At first after the fight what had to be done was very black and white. Now I'm having a hard time saying that if I don't manage to find a capable foster in a month, I'm putting her down. But in reality, a month is more than I care to risk given how things have accelerated in the last month.

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## Gooseman

You can barely see the damage to his right ear, though I need to take a clearer pic. But here's Cruiser post-mauling.

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## pitbulls4me

But you have another pitbull in the house too right? Whats to say that one wont get dog aggressive and go after your other dog? Or that once he is comfortable with himself that he might play rough with you. I say Baby is a normal pitbull with normal behavior for that breed and pretty mcuh any dog (minus the dog aggression). She needs time, patience and training to be a dog anyone would like. I think that if you wont keep her you should put her down as why pass your problems on to someone else. Finding someone who is knowledgeable about the breed is hard enough but finding someone who is knowledgeable about the breed and wants another one is even more difficult. I state again this is why this breed is not for everyone and they get a bad name. This is  my female pitbull who is dog aggressive but was raised around 100s of other dogs while she was a puppy. she is also the one who killed one of our boxers because of our ignorance. You can see in the picture that she is missing part of her tongue and a little bit of her ear, she was attacked by our other pitbull 3 years ago. 


We were stupid and figured they would all get along and we learned the hard way. I was in love with the breed and started learning everything I could. I became more knowledgeable and seperated the dogs. They are never out together now! Then I added a third pitbull and some other different breeds to the house. All of pitbulls get seperate time and needed lots of training to be the dog that I could enjoy. I just think once you get a dog no matter how much trouble they are you owe them to try everything you can. If you (not necessarily pointing it at you but a 'you' in general) take on a dog, especially one who had issues to begin with you should do what you can to make it work for you. You cant get rid of a kid or put it down if it gets an attitude or beats up on other kids. I dont think dogs should be taken so lightly. Baby has it in her to be a good dog, she just needs help finding it. And Cruiser has it in him to be an aggressive dog. I just dont see how you can get rid of one pitbull because of issues that are common with the breed.

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## Gooseman

You think this is easy for me?

You think I'm taking this lightly?

I'm doing it because I have to, and sadly, it's my own fault. I am not blaming Baby for what happened, or what's to come because it was my decision to take in another rescue when I knew the risk, and I made a bad one. It's not that I don't want to continue trying to help her through her problems, which more than anything else that's what hurts the most, feeling like I'm giving up on her. At this point in time I only want to do what's best, most fair to the animals I care for, which obviously wasn't the case when I brought in the other dogs... or even when I picked Baby off the road because I knew one day I'd have my Beagle back. I screwed up...

But moving forward what's the best solution? Keeping Baby and trying to work with her and cross my fingers nothing else happens? Finding Baby a new home where someone CAN work with her? Assuming one day Cruiser does get aggressive towards Hallie, do I have the ability to work a three-way quarantine and give each dog adequate attention and training, keeping in mind I don't have anyone to help? It sucks but no. 

I guess I could rehome Cruiser, he'd be easier to rehome because of his temperment, though I'd need to make sure the new home was ready/able to treat his heartworms. But even if Cruiser became aggressive towards Hallie, I can't help but believe the Cruiser/Hallie situation would be easier to control then the Baby/Hallie situation.  I have a friend who'se going to be watching cruiser for a few days, just to see how things go, so I guess we'll see.

It's just, there doesn't seem to be A right answer to a problem that shouldn't have even come up.

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## Gooseman

So, relatively happy conclusion to the recent affairs involving Baby.

It took alot of work, but I managed to track down my ex-girlfriend, the one who helped me rescue Baby in the first place. I told her of the predicament and she's more than happy to take Baby. See, when we broke up there was a huge argument over who get's Baby and I managed to keep her. I havn't seen her in a year, and deleted her phone number about that time, so getting in touch with her was no easy feat.

She's about as good a home as I could hope for, atleast for the time being, as she's a vet tech and has worked with aggressive dogs on numerous occasions. I'm a little concerned as to how things will go once she goes off to Vet school givin the time constraints, but that's a year from now which gives plenty of time to work something out. Of course I'm the kinda jerk that has some strings attached as far as getting to see Baby etc, but she's willing to work with me on that... assuming I "donate" Baby's crate etc, which is fine by me. I have no more need for it.

It's kinda sad, but really it's the best option that has presented itself.

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## jknudson

Ben,

Glad to hear that you found a home for her!  Hopefully she'll take the best possible care of her, like you obviously have thus far!  :Salute:

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## Gooseman

Thanks Jason, it's been a roller coaster ride, and although there's now a degree of seperation, thankfully it's not over yet!

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## recycling goddess

I'm sooo happy for you. Sounds like Baby has a chance to change and you can rest easier knowing you've done MORE than most would given the entire situation and circumstances. I'm very proud of you Ben!

iMom

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## python.princess

That's awesome! I really hope it works out well for her!

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## Muze

I am sooo happy you found her a home.  I didn't envy your situation at all.  But I honestly think you went about it the right away.  Kudos to you!

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## pitbulls4me

I didnt mean to come off harsh but your situation happens all too often and like I said it is a common issue with pitbulls. I hope you start doing some research and I know you will be cautious having Cruiser around Hallie. I wish you luck and if you ever need anything like training advice or have questions I am here. I apologize for coming off harsh but its frustrating from an outside point of view as well as me trying to share my experiences so that others may learn from them.

I am glad Baby found a good home and with someone she already knows! I hope everything works out great. And thanks for all you put into it!

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