# Ball Pythons > General BP's >  how long does it take to digest?

## tizzle89

alrighty so this is my first post so bear with. i just bought my bp about 20 days ago i fed it an adult mouse the first day i got it... its been almost a week now and i haven't seen any droppings .. wondering about how long does it take to pass an adult mouse... dont know if this was a mistake but i fed him this morning another one..   tank temp 80 under his rock  85 on the right and 78 on the left side .. humid is 40 atm  cant keep it above 50 for longer then 4 hours.. under tank heater is being used..

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## Kyle@theHeathertoft

I had exactly the same concern not long ago, lol! I haven't had a BP in years so I had kindof forgotten their quirks...and I have two other resident snakes, colubrids, who poop like a day after eating, so I kindof panicked when my new BP hadn't gone in a week since eating. 

I asked around and have been reassured that the lack of poop isn't something to be too worried about...they seem to hold it forever, lol! My boy's last mouse hasn't produced a poop either, and unless he rejects due to being in shed right now he's getting another mouse tonight.  :Wink:

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## Egapal

> alrighty so this is my first post so bear with. i just bought my bp about 20 days ago i fed it an adult mouse the first day i got it... its been almost a week now and i haven't seen any droppings .. wondering about how long does it take to pass an adult mouse... dont know if this was a mistake but i fed him this morning another one..   tank temp 80 under his rock  85 on the right and 78 on the left side .. humid is 40 atm  cant keep it above 50 for longer then 4 hours.. under tank heater is being used..


Welcome.  A couple things.  Your time line doesn't make since.  If you got your snake 20 days ago and you fed it on day one then then its been almost 3 weeks.  Each BP is different and they are going to defecate when they defecate.  Unless you start seeing a large bulge at the vent you should be fine.  You should feed on your schedule and not worry about bowel movements so much.  My BP will often save up a few mice and leave me a great big surprise when she sheds.  I would not start worrying for at least another week.

Next is temps.  Can you show us a picture of your setup.  You should have two identical hides that are tight fitting, one on the warm side one on the cool side.  The warm side should be a bit warmer.  I shoot for 89 to 91 although lately I am thinking about dropping that to 88 to 90 based on my snakes use of her hides.  Your cool side doesn't seem to bad and if you bring up your temps on the warm side just a little you should be perfect.  

Humidity, if we see a picture of your setup we should be able to help.  If you are using any lamps that give off heat you could stop as they suck out humidity.  I use a florescent fish tank light for my lighting.  BP's are nocturnal so the lighting is all for you not for your snake.  Also you could try reducing the ventilation.  If you have your snake in a tank you could easily cover 75% of the top and have great ventilation.

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ssg150102 (07-27-2015)

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## tizzle89

> Welcome.  A couple things.  Your time line doesn't make since.  If you got your snake 20 days ago and you fed it on day one then then its been almost 3 weeks.  Each BP is different and they are going to defecate when they defecate.  Unless you start seeing a large bulge at the vent you should be fine.  You should feed on your schedule and not worry about bowel movements so much.  My BP will often save up a few mice and leave me a great big surprise when she sheds.  I would not start worrying for at least another week.
> 
> Next is temps.  Can you show us a picture of your setup.  You should have two identical hides that are tight fitting, one on the warm side one on the cool side.  The warm side should be a bit warmer.  I shoot for 89 to 91 although lately I am thinking about dropping that to 88 to 90 based on my snakes use of her hides.  Your cool side doesn't seem to bad and if you bring up your temps on the warm side just a little you should be perfect.  
> 
> Humidity, if we see a picture of your setup we should be able to help.  If you are using any lamps that give off heat you could stop as they suck out humidity.  I use a florescent fish tank light for my lighting.  BP's are nocturnal so the lighting is all for you not for your snake.  Also you could try reducing the ventilation.  If you have your snake in a tank you could easily cover 75% of the top and have great ventilation.


guess your right on the time line  it has been atleast 10 to 15  i live in alaska so the days flow very nicely together lol.. ill upload a pic soon. its nothing spec just a reg snake starter kit 20 gal i do believe with  2 lights on top of a screen lid  since my room temp is useally  60 degs  i use a 100 wat basking light on 1 side and a 100 wat night light on the other side  depending on what my room temp is    max  light i use is 2 hundred wat basking lights < but thats if i dont have my space heater going in my room.  i put some moss in his cool side next to his wood cuz to me it looks like he might shed.. top of his head is turning a blueish color in the light <grey> and his belly is turning pink instead of the norm tan...

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## mason

The vast majority of royals (young ones anyway) will only defacate when they shed.

Kept at the correct temperature the meal takes 24-72 hours to be digested, but they can hang on a long time before they need to 'go'

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## tizzle89

alright lets see if this works 







he has his night lights on atm   60 watt black light and the 100 watt red light  

under his hide is the 81 degree  the back gage shows the over all temp in the cage and the humid .. leting it drop atm since im about to clean the cage  and re hydrate his dirt ... using eco earth

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## Vypyrz

The norm for my guys average about 3 in, 1 out...

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## zantedeschia

A comment on your hide. I wasted a lot of money on about 4-5 of the hides that have more than one opening. (small ones when my snakes were small). They really seem to prefer the exo-terro ones that only have one opening. I would recommend that (your brand of choice certainly, but the type of cave with only one door).

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## Kaorte

your probed thermometer should be right on the glass where the UTH is under the substrate. You should measure the hottest point in the snakes enclosure so you can be assured that it doesn't get too hot. 

I would completely disregard the readings on those stick on round gauges. They are very inaccurate. Get another thermometer with a probe or get an accurite weather station from the home depot, lowes, or walmart. 

I think you need to sort out your temps a bit, they seem to be all over the place. You should have a distinct hot and cool side. Hot side should be 90-92*F and the cool side should be in the low 80's.

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## tizzle89

> your probed thermometer should be right on the glass where the UTH is under the substrate. You should measure the hottest point in the snakes enclosure so you can be assured that it doesn't get too hot. 
> 
> I would completely disregard the readings on those stick on round gauges. They are very inaccurate. Get another thermometer with a probe or get an accurite weather station from the home depot, lowes, or walmart. 
> 
> I think you need to sort out your temps a bit, they seem to be all over the place. You should have a distinct hot and cool side. Hot side should be 90-92*F and the cool side should be in the low 80's.


the digital thermometer is the yellow thing on the front  i just use the round one for an overall temp of the cage and humid.  the temps are constant  always 80 under his hide <under the rock and under the dirt under the hide>
it will get to 90+ under his basking light and i set that one over his water dish.. i have an issue with humid so i fig thats the best spot<evaporate the water=humid lol> then i use just a norm 50 watt daylight over his wood and currently moss<78-80 there. 

he seems to enjoy this setup   its a nice temp under the hide and hot n cold on either side...  but i read somewhere that he doesnt need uvb so now i have to buy ceramic lights? lmk on this

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## bman123

use a tub

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## Egapal

Ok a couple of things.  Your ball python doesn't want a basking spot.  They don't want to come out and bask.  Think about it like this.  If I come out into the sun I get eaten by a bird of prey.  Your snake will do best with two identical tight fitting hides with one opening each.  You should then try to provide appropriate warm and cool temps under those hides with an ambient temp above 75 at the bear minimum.  

Now your first question was "How long does it take to digest?"  The answer is a lot longer if your temps are too low, which they appear to be.  You should invest in a UTH and a thermostat.  BP's will digest their meals in the burrows of the animals they eat or other appropriate burrows.  Its for this reason that they get their heat from the ground they are sitting on, not the sun.  Your BP, never ever wants to come out and sit under a hot lamp.  It will only do so if its that or death.

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## tizzle89

> Ok a couple of things.  Your ball python doesn't want a basking spot.  They don't want to come out and bask.  Think about it like this.  If I come out into the sun I get eaten by a bird of prey.  Your snake will do best with two identical tight fitting hides with one opening each.  You should then try to provide appropriate warm and cool temps under those hides with an ambient temp above 75 at the bear minimum.  
> 
> Now your first question was "How long does it take to digest?"  The answer is a lot longer if your temps are too low, which they appear to be.  You should invest in a UTH and a thermostat.  BP's will digest their meals in the burrows of the animals they eat or other appropriate burrows.  Its for this reason that they get their heat from the ground they are sitting on, not the sun.  Your BP, never ever wants to come out and sit under a hot lamp.  It will only do so if its that or death.


i know he doesnt want to sit in the sun... i use a basking light because of the heat it produces.. you have to under stand where i live at  ALASKA my room sits at 60 to 55 degrees all day n night since fuel oil is almost 4 bucks a gallon. now  my temps atm are gross since the lights i have i bought for a dirt n bark substrate... i can only have the 60 watt  night light on now or the cage gets to 100 degrees all around...  he has a uth that alone gets to 90 degrees...  and up date on the other issues

mites gone
bloating lessing

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## Kaorte

If you need to use lamp heat, I would either use a red bulb or a ceramic bulb, that way you don't mess up their day/night cycle. Having a bright light shining on them 24/7 will screw them up. 

Another option to look into is radiant heat panels. They are kind of expensive but they would work very well with the climate that you are in.

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## tizzle89

> If you need to use lamp heat, I would either use a red bulb or a ceramic bulb, that way you don't mess up their day/night cycle. Having a bright light shining on them 24/7 will screw them up. 
> 
> Another option to look into is radiant heat panels. They are kind of expensive but they would work very well with the climate that you are in.


a 75 watt is 60 bucks at petco  price does not matter for my snake though lol 

i no longer use the basking lights during the day since he doesnt seem to mind if it is night 24/7 

note he gets light from my room during the day  or from my skinks basking lights

red light is used when he has his substrate  cant use atm since it brings the cage temp over all 100+

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## Kaorte

> a 75 watt is 60 bucks at petco  price does not matter for my snake though lol 
> 
> i no longer use the basking lights during the day since he doesnt seem to mind if it is night 24/7 
> 
> note he gets light from my room during the day  or from my skinks basking lights
> 
> red light is used when he has his substrate  cant use atm since it brings the cage temp over all 100+


I would definately look into a radiant heat panel. 
http://www.reptilebasics.com/radiant...panel-faq.html

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## tizzle89

> I would definately look into a radiant heat panel. 
> http://www.reptilebasics.com/radiant...panel-faq.html


thats pretty neet lol but wont work for my cage 


screen topped 

not going to buy something to reg the heat 

the ceramic heat emitters will work fine lol they dont say the heat panel is better or worse they just say the che gets really hot... but of course it does a reg 25 watt light bulb in the house gets hot  :Razz: 

but really the most needed item atm is another hide

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## Kaorte

You NEED something to regulate the heat or else your animal will get thermal burns. Especially if you are using a UTH. A UTH will get MUCH hotter then the acceptable range of temps. Plenty to slowly cook your snake.

You can still use a RHP with a screen top. You can mount them on the side of the glass. 

The problem with CHEs is they get very hot and they kill humidity. You should know that cold climates generally have very low humidity making it even harder to keep humidity up in the tank. That is really my only concern when using them. Bad sheds are no picnic.

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## tizzle89

> You NEED something to regulate the heat or else your animal will get thermal burns. Especially if you are using a UTH. A UTH will get MUCH hotter then the acceptable range of temps. Plenty to slowly cook your snake.
> 
> You can still use a RHP with a screen top. You can mount them on the side of the glass. 
> 
> The problem with CHEs is they get very hot and they kill humidity. You should know that cold climates generally have very low humidity making it even harder to keep humidity up in the tank. That is really my only concern when using them. Bad sheds are no picnic.


this is why my cage setup has to be dif from the norm lol  to battle to humidity issue i put sphagnum moss in a plastic bowl and set it under his light.. i enclose about 90% of the cage top to keep the humidity in. if what your saying is correct then i would have to get a diamond drill bit to drill through my glass to mount the  heat source.. lol   im not using plastic for my snake atm  bought this 150 dollar cage and by god its going to be used lol. sad i made a perfectly working cage for my moms gecko for 50 to 60  :Sad: 


i see your point on the heating pad thing but in the long run  its just going to cost not the 60 for it but probs 100 to 150  since it says i need to have a thermostat for it to reg its heat so it doesnt burn my snake..

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## Kaorte

> this is why my cage setup has to be dif from the norm lol  to battle to humidity issue i put sphagnum moss in a plastic bowl and set it under his light.. i enclose about 90% of the cage top to keep the humidity in. if what your saying is correct then i would have to get a diamond drill bit to drill through my glass to mount the  heat source.. lol   im not using plastic for my snake atm  bought this 150 dollar cage and by god its going to be used lol. sad i made a perfectly working cage for my moms gecko for 50 to 60 
> 
> 
> i see your point on the heating pad thing but in the long run  its just going to cost not the 60 for it but probs 100 to 150  since it says i need to have a thermostat for it to reg its heat so it doesnt burn my snake..


My point is you need a thermostat to safely run the heating pad anyway.

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## dr del

Hi,

I think the point being missed is that you need something to control *whatever* heat source you try to use.

I used to use ceramic heaters to heat a large cage - they said on the packaging that unregulated they could reach *700* degrees c. Hopefully yours won't - but they definately will need to be some way of adjusting the heat output if you intend to keep the snakes enclosure right.


dr del

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## tizzle89

> Hi,
> 
> I think the point being missed is that you need something to control *whatever* heat source you try to use.
> 
> I used to use ceramic heaters to heat a large cage - they said on the packaging that unregulated they could reach *700* degrees c. Hopefully yours won't - but they definately will need to be some way of adjusting the heat output if you intend to keep the snakes enclosure right.
> 
> 
> dr del


yep its called a digi thermometer   for my snakes cage i have these

1 100 watt basking
1 75 watt basking light
1 100 watt red light
1 60 watt black
1 75 watt black
1 100 watt black
uth

now depending on the time of day and temp outside which lately has been -30 to -40 so the house is 60 to 55  i switched to the 100 watt red and the 75 watt black... and waaaaaaaa pow perfect temps 

all in all the temp is no concern for me  i can make it w/e temp i want and keep it there 

now what im saying is ide rather buy the che then buy the thing i have to drill holes in my glass cage to use it... and then have to buy something else just to make sure that when my snake lays next to it  it doesnt cook him (my snake will lay next to the glass)< hes weird i ges

the heat emiters can be hung from my ceiling at w/e height needed to give the cage the perfect temp  simple 
no buying a diamond bit and a drill  and then a heat reg for the pad lol

y make things harder when really its easy 


for my skink  i have
3 100 watt basking lights
1 75 watt basking red night light
1 100 watt black

note his cage is completely open  its a wire cage with a plastic bottom 
cage temp 85 in his hide and 90 to 100 in basking temps 

pretty much what im saying is humidity and tempature is not my issue im just new at owning a snake and certain things i get worried about... but like alot of you have said... if he is eating drinking and pooping he is fine 

ate today 1 adult mouse  fiance was ever so kind as to video it lol 


so thanks for the help  ill post when/if something goes wrong but i dont think it will  hes getting his dirt n bark tomorrow  hopefully the mite issue is gone

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## Kaorte

A UTH with out a THERMOSTAT (not a thermometer) will cook your snake. 

*You absolutely need a thermostat to use the UTH.*

An unregulated UTH will get well over 100*F which is enough to slowly burn your snake. 

To clarify, I am talking about the heat mat that you ALREADY have on your cage which means that it probably is already too hot for him right on the surface. Take your probe and put it under the substrate right on the glass where the UTH is. 

No offense but changing all those lamps out during the day sounds like the biggest pain in the butt on the planet... Not to mention it probably does an awesome number on your humidity. 


Keep in mind we are only trying to help you find the most successful way to heat your tank safely and effectively. What you are suggesting with the CHE's will work and I have seen people do it, but you will then be struggling with humidity. 

Many people have gone through the trial and error of different heat sources and how effective they are. It is the general consensus that a UTH on a thermostat is the best option for a ball python. If you need supplemental heat (if the room is colder than 70*F) then a low wattage heat lamp, CHE, or second UTH will work best. 

There is honestly no reason for you to be changing out your lights all the time. As someone else has said before "set it and forget it". It should not be this much work to keep constant temps.

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## Egapal

> yep its called a digi thermometer   for my snakes cage i have these
> 
> 1 100 watt basking
> 1 75 watt basking light
> 1 100 watt red light
> 1 60 watt black
> 1 75 watt black
> 1 100 watt black
> uth
> ...



I think its worth mentioning that no one is trying to attack you.  You said you are new to keep snakes and had some problems so we are trying to help.  I want to try and break this down a different way.  You have a BP and 3 big concerns in my book.  One is a safe place for them to hide.  You should have two one on the warm side one one the cool side.  You don't need to get fancy with these, especially if your snake is not an adult.  People use the bottoms of ceramic pots with entrances cut in, bowls and small cat litter pans.  After that you have proper temps and proper humidity.  I mention them both together as your choice of one effects the other.

CHE will suck the humidity out of your tank. So will light bulbs.  UTH's are the best that I have seen and I have no experience with radiant heat panels.  If you are not going to buy a thermostate (I think you should) Radiant heat panels are the best.  You can attach this to the underside of the screen top.  The reason they are the best is because their surface has the lowest max temp and your snake can not lay directly on it.  It will be able to touch the surface directly but its much less likely to get burned.  

I live in Norther New York State and I keep my house in the mid 60's to 70 if we have company over.  If you had two UTH's one with a thermostat and one with a rheostat you could keep the warm side on the thermostat and the "cool" side on the rheostat.

At the end of the day its your snake and we are all just trying to help you and your snake.  The lower maintenance your snake is the better.  Its great that you are willing to adjust its temps and really stay hands on.  The problem comes when you have to leave the snake in someone else care.  If you get sick or injured.  I have great peace of mind knowing that all my snake needs for at least a few weeks is fresh water.  Obviously I would rather be able to care for my snake daily but if something happens she will be fine for a while without me or for longer with a person who is not afraid of snakes who can pop in and check on her.

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## tizzle89

> A UTH with out a THERMOSTAT (not a thermometer) will cook your snake. 
> 
> *You absolutely need a thermostat to use the UTH.*
> 
> An unregulated UTH will get well over 100*F which is enough to slowly burn your snake. 
> 
> To clarify, I am talking about the heat mat that you ALREADY have on your cage which means that it probably is already too hot for him right on the surface. Take your probe and put it under the substrate right on the glass where the UTH is. 
> 
> No offense but changing all those lamps out during the day sounds like the biggest pain in the butt on the planet... Not to mention it probably does an awesome number on your humidity. 
> ...


ok look i need you to under stand this... where do you live? let me explain this part  ALASKA dry and absolutely the coldest place you will ever go in your life my room temp i am not lying to you 55 to 60 degrees. you think a uth is going to keep my snakes cage warm? lol no i have to use lights it is a must. other ppl may have trial and errord what you are talking about.. but did they live where i live.. the house i live in.. gotta understand each house is a cage in itself lol humidity in my house is very low. i understand you are tying to help but atm you are focussed on heat and i dunno if you seen my pics but its all correct  and even better now since i bought 2 more digis to constant reg the temp...  

changing the lights is easy i have to do it for my skink anyways 

all in all atm im battling to high of humidity since i soaked his dirt in 120 temp water to clean it from the mites... 

so all in all alaska=cold=uth wont heat entire cage nore get to the degree u speak of.. using a zoo med uth atm says on packaging  as long as my room stays below 80 degrees i dont need the thermostat to use it.. and i have a probe in the substrate lol under both hides now  one is 93 1 is 90 and cold side next to water is 84 over all temp in cage about 85 86  but atm i have 80% humidity but that will soon pass... so are my temps right or wrong? if they are wrong then ill do what you say but if they are in range of proper heat for a ball python then i think we can move off the heat subject.. have had the cage setup for 2 weeks like this.. no burns keep in mind i have about an inch and a half of dirt under my snake..  less dirt=more heat.. more dirt =less heat... simple lol

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## Kaorte

I see YOUR point, but you completely missed mine. 

One hide should be 80-82* and the other should be 90-92*. You shouldn't have two that are in the 90's. 

Do me a favor and move all the substrate except for 1/4" off the UTH and place your probe right on the glass over the UTH. Not in the middle of the substrate, right on the glass. 

Your snake will eventually figure out that it can move the substrate around to get warmer and it will do this. You need to measure the hottest point in the enclosure that the snake can possibly get to. 

I have seen people make these mistakes before and end up with belly burns. I understand living in a cold house, I am in Chicago and I grew up in Michigan. I know how cold it can get inside. That being said, you do not need a crap load of lamps. One correct wattage light on the cool side of the tank should be enough to keep the ambient temp of the tank above 75*F.

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## cweimer4

> I see YOUR point, but you completely missed mine. 
> 
> One hide should be 80-82* and the other should be 90-92*. You shouldn't have two that are in the 90's. 
> 
> Do me a favor and move all the substrate except for 1/4" off the UTH and place your probe right on the glass over the UTH. Not in the middle of the substrate, right on the glass. 
> 
> Your snake will eventually figure out that it can move the substrate around to get warmer and it will do this. You need to measure the hottest point in the enclosure that the snake can possibly get to. 
> 
> I have seen people make these mistakes before and end up with belly burns. I understand living in a cold house, I am in Chicago and I grew up in Michigan. I know how cold it can get inside. That being said, you do not need a crap load of lamps. One correct wattage light on the cool side of the tank should be enough to keep the ambient temp of the tank above 75*F.


He said its -30 out. I live in Ohio so I know what Michigan and Chicago cold is, however, -30 makes Michigan and Chicago seem like a tropical getaway. If he feels comfortable with changing lamps for both of his animals thats fine. More power to him. And as for the snake burrowing under subtrate, I have a ball python and a number of my friends have ball pythons. I have never ever seen one mess with the substrate to try and get underneath it. NOT ONCE, EVER. He read the back of the box of the UTH and he seems to know what hes doing. I believe he is doing fine. I know someone who heats his tank with a huge ass heat lamp and thats it. His snake seems just as fine and healthy as Ive ever seen them. Everyone does it differently. Seems like everyone is criticizing the guy for not doing anything wrong if his snake is healthy and does everything like your snake or my snake. I think hes just doing fine. 

Just my .02..    Please dont hate me for stickin up for the guy! I just dont see a problem if his snake seems happy and healthy.

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## tizzle89

> I think its worth mentioning that no one is trying to attack you.  You said you are new to keep snakes and had some problems so we are trying to help.  I want to try and break this down a different way.  You have a BP and 3 big concerns in my book.  One is a safe place for them to hide.  You should have two one on the warm side one one the cool side.  You don't need to get fancy with these, especially if your snake is not an adult.  People use the bottoms of ceramic pots with entrances cut in, bowls and small cat litter pans.  After that you have proper temps and proper humidity.  I mention them both together as your choice of one effects the other.
> 
> CHE will suck the humidity out of your tank. So will light bulbs.  UTH's are the best that I have seen and I have no experience with radiant heat panels.  If you are not going to buy a thermostate (I think you should) Radiant heat panels are the best.  You can attach this to the underside of the screen top.  The reason they are the best is because their surface has the lowest max temp and your snake can not lay directly on it.  It will be able to touch the surface directly but its much less likely to get burned.  
> 
> I live in Norther New York State and I keep my house in the mid 60's to 70 if we have company over.  If you had two UTH's one with a thermostat and one with a rheostat you could keep the warm side on the thermostat and the "cool" side on the rheostat.
> 
> At the end of the day its your snake and we are all just trying to help you and your snake.  The lower maintenance your snake is the better.  Its great that you are willing to adjust its temps and really stay hands on.  The problem comes when you have to leave the snake in someone else care.  If you get sick or injured.  I have great peace of mind knowing that all my snake needs for at least a few weeks is fresh water.  Obviously I would rather be able to care for my snake daily but if something happens she will be fine for a while without me or for longer with a person who is not afraid of snakes who can pop in and check on her.


i know your all not attacking its just its always about the temp.. lol  i dunno if this thread has the pics of my cage but the temp is hot/mid hot/cold

the reason for the third temp is simple.. i have a water dish pretty much the size of the cold side there isnt enough room for the snake to have a hide.. and if i down grade the size the humidity will need to be tweaked..  i cannot mount the thing you all are talking about  because......... i have a sliding screen top.. i wouldnt be able to open the cage if i mounted on the top of the cage.. and im not drilling through my glass.... so as of now i cannot use the best of the best.... lol  my skink alone was 200 the bp 90 his cage 150 extra hide 10 3 digi therms 30 uth 27 water dish 20 beding 30 < bought alot lol
lights each basking light was 15 i have 3 100s 1 75  

it all adds up... not to mention the 400 dollar light bill i gotta pay.. so for now im tryn to make the best of what i can afford 
scraped up 80 bucks over the week and bought him his real UTH instead of a human heating pad lol along with his other 2 digis and his extra hide...


but really what works for you all doesnt mean it works for me becuase in order for it to work for me i would have to buy another cage.. and atm my wallet cannot take that blow... someone is always with him and my skink lol my fiance stays home and i work... lol 

but atm im way frustrated since now i cant run my lights without the humidity getting to 90... the substrate is in the oven once again trying to dry it out ... izzy is in a plastic crate with a space heater and a human heating pad under him...  i know how important the temp and humidity is so its the first thing i make sure is perfect.. and right now i cant get it perfect and its pissing me off... nothing that worked before is working now... theres either not enough heat or theres to much heat and not enough humidity <cage top open is y no humidity 

put it this way there is so much humidity when i finnaly got tired of fighting with it in the cage.. i lifted one of his hides on the hot side and there was watre droplets on the roof of it...  1.40am  no sleep again taken care of him

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## tizzle89

> I see YOUR point, but you completely missed mine. 
> 
> One hide should be 80-82* and the other should be 90-92*. You shouldn't have two that are in the 90's. 
> 
> Do me a favor and move all the substrate except for 1/4" off the UTH and place your probe right on the glass over the UTH. Not in the middle of the substrate, right on the glass. 
> 
> Your snake will eventually figure out that it can move the substrate around to get warmer and it will do this. You need to measure the hottest point in the enclosure that the snake can possibly get to. 
> 
> I have seen people make these mistakes before and end up with belly burns. I understand living in a cold house, I am in Chicago and I grew up in Michigan. I know how cold it can get inside. That being said, you do not need a crap load of lamps. One correct wattage light on the cool side of the tank should be enough to keep the ambient temp of the tank above 75*F.


it gets to 93 ... its a zoo med 10 to 20 gallon  uth that sticks to the tank.. lol i have done this and i know he digs  does it all the time...   i even held my hand right on the bottom of the cage over the uth... it was hot but i could hold my hand on it all day.. and i am very sensitive to heat lol i prefer cold over heat anyday... so belly burns  they might be possible if i have a light on right over where the uth is.... but it made it clear never to do this... so i dont plan to... lol anyways ima go check the dirt see if it dry yet... 

not tryn to argue with u guys just tryn to make it clear that i check all the possible angels on this that i know of.... but atm nothing working and my snake is out of his cage like i sed next to a space heater and on a human heating pad.... <<<worst place for him imo  sides the freezer

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## dr del

Hi,

Why can't you put the waterbowl in the middle to allow him to have a cool end hide?

Incidently what causes burns on you has no bearing on what will cause a burn on your snake. 

I get the whole lamp swapping thing is your method of controling the temps ( human thermostat approach ) but would like to suggest you think about buying a proportional thermostat that would allow you to use one red or blue or ceramic heat lamp and save you all that work. In fact if you use the ceramic heater option you will be able to make it work fine with an on/ off type as well.

I do have one solution you might want to think of long term.

Are you good at DIY?

You could think about building a melamine or plastic enclosure with front opening that would give you a greater range of heating and lighting options.

And to the other poster BP's move the substrate all the time if they choose to - I know you have never seen it but they can and will on occasion.  :Smile: 


dr del

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## Egapal

> i know your all not attacking its just its always about the temp.. lol  i dunno if this thread has the pics of my cage but the temp is hot/mid hot/cold
> 
> the reason for the third temp is simple.. i have a water dish pretty much the size of the cold side there isnt enough room for the snake to have a hide.. and if i down grade the size the humidity will need to be tweaked..  i cannot mount the thing you all are talking about  because......... i have a sliding screen top.. i wouldnt be able to open the cage if i mounted on the top of the cage.. and im not drilling through my glass.... so as of now i cannot use the best of the best.... lol  my skink alone was 200 the bp 90 his cage 150 extra hide 10 3 digi therms 30 uth 27 water dish 20 beding 30 < bought alot lol
> lights each basking light was 15 i have 3 100s 1 75  
> 
> it all adds up... not to mention the 400 dollar light bill i gotta pay.. so for now im tryn to make the best of what i can afford 
> scraped up 80 bucks over the week and bought him his real UTH instead of a human heating pad lol along with his other 2 digis and his extra hide...
> 
> 
> ...


Believe it or not on top of trying to get you and your snake the best settup you can have we are also trying to save you money.  All of the things we are talking about do not have to be expensive.  If you had not already spent all the money you have it would in fact be a lot cheaper.  I have never spent much money on hides.  Terracotta pot bottoms to start: $1.10 a piece (I though they were overpriced at that).  I forget the price but I picked up heat tape, mite remover, vet approved cleaner and a thermostat from reptile basics for a great price.  Then built a rheostat for less than 10 bucks out of an extension cord and a dimmer switch.  

Unfortunately for all the money you have spent the real benefit is going to come from a thermostat and a decent one will cost you over $75.

Another point worth mentioning is that lamps are not the most efficient sources of heat.  If they were we all have lamps instead of heaters in our house.  Not using lamps for heat is going to save you money.

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## Kaorte

> He said its -30 out. I live in Ohio so I know what Michigan and Chicago cold is, however, -30 makes Michigan and Chicago seem like a tropical getaway. If he feels comfortable with changing lamps for both of his animals thats fine. More power to him. And as for the snake burrowing under subtrate, I have a ball python and a number of my friends have ball pythons. I have never ever seen one mess with the substrate to try and get underneath it. NOT ONCE, EVER. He read the back of the box of the UTH and he seems to know what hes doing. I believe he is doing fine. I know someone who heats his tank with a huge ass heat lamp and thats it. His snake seems just as fine and healthy as Ive ever seen them. Everyone does it differently. Seems like everyone is criticizing the guy for not doing anything wrong if his snake is healthy and does everything like your snake or my snake. I think hes just doing fine. 
> 
> Just my .02..    Please dont hate me for stickin up for the guy! I just dont see a problem if his snake seems happy and healthy.


I have 5 ball pythons and I have personally seen them move any and every kind of substrate I put in there. Aspen, paper towels, newspaper, dirt. They always end up moving it.

OP: I really hope you can get things figured out. I feel your frustration. We were all there at one point. I am sorry you have already spent so much money on all these things that were honestly not all that needed. Hopefully you can get everything stabilized so your new little one can start enjoying its new environment!

That being said, all these changes and tweaking you are doing is probably a little stressful on your snake. Do your best not to handle it for a week after everything is finally set up. Then offer food. Then 48 hours later, enjoy!

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## tizzle89

> Believe it or not on top of trying to get you and your snake the best settup you can have we are also trying to save you money.  All of the things we are talking about do not have to be expensive.  If you had not already spent all the money you have it would in fact be a lot cheaper.  I have never spent much money on hides.  Terracotta pot bottoms to start: $1.10 a piece (I though they were overpriced at that).  I forget the price but I picked up heat tape, mite remover, vet approved cleaner and a thermostat from reptile basics for a great price.  Then built a rheostat for less than 10 bucks out of an extension cord and a dimmer switch.  
> 
> Unfortunately for all the money you have spent the real benefit is going to come from a thermostat and a decent one will cost you over $75.
> 
> Another point worth mentioning is that lamps are not the most efficient sources of heat.  If they were we all have lamps instead of heaters in our house.  Not using lamps for heat is going to save you money.


lol i know the cage was spendy.. i built my moms gecko cage for 70 bucks flat.. lol  but in the long run atm lights are all i can do and is the best atm.. of course i could get my hands on some flex wire < talking about the kind u rap around pipes to keep them from freezing lol.. lmk if thats a good idea.. atm i cant keep the temps were they need to be.. ever since i switched from my human heating pad to this reptile uth... the temps have been crazy.. over all cage heat is 89 < bad  but when i turn the lights off the sides drop to 80s they both do... and i need 1 in the 90s....  it will reach this if my room is at 70 to 80 degrees but that is to hot for me and the wife...  i have 100 bucks saved... im about ready to start from scratch and buy a Rubbermaid and just hobo a cage...  and use 2 human heating pads under the tank 1 on high and the other on low... should be good right?  would get rid of the lights.... means i gotta start all over.. trying to buy a car soon and this snake.. skink  keep draining the pocket money.. lol

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## tizzle89

> I have 5 ball pythons and I have personally seen them move any and every kind of substrate I put in there. Aspen, paper towels, newspaper, dirt. They always end up moving it.
> 
> OP: I really hope you can get things figured out. I feel your frustration. We were all there at one point. I am sorry you have already spent so much money on all these things that were honestly not all that needed. Hopefully you can get everything stabilized so your new little one can start enjoying its new environment!
> 
> That being said, all these changes and tweaking you are doing is probably a little stressful on your snake. Do your best not to handle it for a week after everything is finally set up. Then offer food. Then 48 hours later, enjoy!



i do it all while hes being handled.. we take him out maybe 3 times a day.. mostly at night and then i fix what i can before he gets a chill feeling on him.. mostly he stays on my wifes chest while she plays on her laptop.. just wish he was hardy like my skink.. but oh no he has to have it perfect lol course so does the skink but he will move into his basking light if he is to cold or bury himself if hes to hot... seems smarter imo lol 

but yeah atm i cant get it right... it was better before i changed to a real uth and tinfoiled the back of the cage

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## dr del

Hi,

Tinfoil might reflect the light well enough but foam board on the back, sides and bottom would really help stabilise the temp a lot more. You could also use the foil and air pocket insulation but I'm not sure if that would work for the bottom with the weight of the cage on top of it.

I'm not sure how close it would be possible to have it to the lamps so cannot advise on the top of the cage though.

On the plus side it is relatively cheap stuff that you should be able to find in most hardware stores and can be painted to blend in with your decor if needed.


dr del

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## tizzle89

after 4 days of fighting with the glass cage... i returned the 26.99 uth and bought a same size in length rubbermaid tub.. only dif is its 1/4 the height spent 10 on that bought another human heating pas for 11 and a 40 watt light bulb for the kitchen over the stove for 3.99...  took a soldering iron  put about 15 holes in the lid of the tote then 3 on each long side and 2 on the short sides..  temp is perfect .. humidity is way high now...   any ideas to bring it down?

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## Swingline0.0.1

More holes will lower the humidity, just don't put too many!
A human heating pad is not a good idea, they can get very hot.

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## tizzle89

> More holes will lower the humidity, just don't put too many!
> A human heating pad is not a good idea, they can get very hot.


i no   :Smile:  it has settings 6 of the.. using  number 5 for hot side an 1 for cold  :Smile:  

also has a safety  shut off if the pad gets to hot.. 

more holes it is

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## Elise.m

I have at least 8 holes on the long sides, and 3 holes on the short sides.

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## tizzle89

> I have at least 8 holes on the long sides, and 3 holes on the short sides.


i put over 50 on the top... i wake up this morning temps were perfect 93 hot 80 in the cage and 75 on the cold side.... but humidity  was 100 and water droplets all over the gauge and the sides n lid.... so im leaven the top off till i leave tonight

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## dr del

Hi,

What substrate and size of waterbowl are you using in the tub?


dr del

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## tizzle89

> Hi,
> 
> What substrate and size of waterbowl are you using in the tub?
> 
> 
> dr del


eco earth

big water bowl 

i no this = humidity but it was like this with no water bowl inside

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## tizzle89

> eco earth
> 
> big water bowl 
> 
> i no this = humidity but it was like this with no water bowl inside


not to worried about this issue atm since the corners of his eyes are turning milky blue and his belly is a nice pink color all the way down and he is getting very very scaley  and really jumpy around me.. so if all this =s shed then i need all the humidity i can get atm.. i just pop the lid when i see water droplets and i have been leaven paper towls in the cage to help collect the mass humidity

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## dr del

Hi,

Yep high humidity isn't a bad thing during the shed cycle by any means - but a wet substrate could be a serious problem.

The eco earth should dry out over time and a smaller waterbowl would be a good stopgap in the meantime I think.

But if the humidity doesn't go down  you might want to think of using a substrate like newspaper to avoid the possibility of scalerot etc.


dr del

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## tizzle89

> Hi,
> 
> Yep high humidity isn't a bad thing during the shed cycle by any means - but a wet substrate could be a serious problem.
> 
> The eco earth should dry out over time and a smaller waterbowl would be a good stopgap in the meantime I think.
> 
> But if the humidity doesn't go down  you might want to think of using a substrate like newspaper to avoid the possibility of scalerot etc.
> 
> 
> dr del


of course you mean blank newspaper  lol newspaper ink never drys and will turn my snake black... would be cool but im sure he would get ink poisoning sooner or later  :Smile:  just to clear it up in case someone who doesnt know reads this post  :Smile:

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## Elise.m

I read somewhere on this forum that most newspaper companies use soy based ink, so it shouldn't hurt your snake. I have two of my snakes on printed newspaper, and their bellies are still pure white. Only thing it rubs off on is their water bowl and hide, if they pee under it.

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## dr del

Hi,

Nup I meant newspaper.  :Razz: 

It has never turned any of mine black or caused them any problems.

And it hasn't been poisonous for a long time.  :Smile: 


dr del

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## tizzle89

> Hi,
> 
> Nup I meant newspaper. 
> 
> It has never turned any of mine black or caused them any problems.
> 
> And it hasn't been poisonous for a long time. 
> 
> 
> dr del


hmm... well my wife was looking on a skink forum just for skinks and it showed pics of the skinks after being on the newspaper.. it really does turn them black and they said it hasnt been proven poisonous yet but... my aunt had some ferrets and put them on newspaper for awhile.. and they died.. course they ate it.. its something i wouldnt risk beings u can go to a newspaper print and just get the paper.. probs cheaper then the newspaper after printing...

in the long run  i wouldnt risk puting my reps on newspaper with ink on it.. i can handle a newspaper for 5 mins and have black hands.. so the balls in ur court what u put ur reps on.. ill stick with eco earth  nice n safe  :Smile:

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## Swingline0.0.1

I have been using regular newspaper for years, with no problems.

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## tizzle89

> I have been using regular newspaper for years, with no problems.


glad to hear no issues but its true the ink doesnt dry.. run ur finger  across the  pics/ words... now look at ur finger... point proven.. sides ask ur self this question...  do i want to live on newspaper for 30 years?   just like with my ferrets i put myself in their shoes... do i want to be caged 24/7? nah i wanna run free inside the house and find random objects and hide them from stephen so he has to find them... like ma wallet...  lol or liners for my shoes.. always a joy 


sides i cant use just paper  my heating pads on lowest setting gets to 95+  so i have to use dirt or my snake will cook... 


dunno about soy based... but i do know that if a ferret eats it the ferret dies.. but this was back like 10 years ago so they may have changed it.. but every state/city press are diff and may not use this soy based ink

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## Swingline0.0.1

No point proven, no ink on my finger. This is not the first time this conversation has been made, and I am not ignorant. If the ink was a issue, I would not use the newspaper.

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## tizzle89

> No point proven, no ink on my finger. This is not the first time this conversation has been made, and I am not ignorant. If the ink was a issue, I would not use the newspaper.


lol i just did it with the newspaper we get in alaska.. finger is black... odd 

so like i said point proven  like i have said alot of times

what works for others doesnt mean it works here... ya no in alaska? that cold place where liven is hard lol  and ink is poisonous

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## Kaorte

> glad to hear no issues but its true the ink doesnt dry.. run ur finger  across the  pics/ words... now look at ur finger... point proven.. sides ask ur self this question...  do i want to live on newspaper for 30 years?   just like with my ferrets i put myself in their shoes... do i want to be caged 24/7? nah i wanna run free inside the house and find random objects and hide them from stephen so he has to find them... like ma wallet...  lol or liners for my shoes.. always a joy 
> *
> 
> sides i cant use just paper  my heating pads on lowest setting gets to 95+  so i have to use dirt or my snake will cook... 
> *
> 
> dunno about soy based... but i do know that if a ferret eats it the ferret dies.. but this was back like 10 years ago so they may have changed it.. but every state/city press are diff and may not use this soy based ink


I have been trying to tell you that THIS IS WHY YOU NEED A THERMOSTAT. Using bedding alone will not prevent thermal burns. The snake CAN and WILL move the substrate.

You seem to be asking questions and when you get an answer you don't want, you ignore it or find some other ambiguous reason or excuse as to why you can't do what we suggest. 

If this is really how you want to take care of your animal, so be it. Just know that you aren't taking care of your animal in the best way that you could be. 

I am sorry if this comes off harsh but you are just not being cooperative at all. If you want help, take our advice.

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_Elise.m_ (02-15-2010),_jben_ (02-15-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (02-15-2010)

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## tizzle89

> I have been trying to tell you that THIS IS WHY YOU NEED A THERMOSTAT. Using bedding alone will not prevent thermal burns. The snake CAN and WILL move the substrate.
> 
> You seem to be asking questions and when you get an answer you don't want, you ignore it or find some other ambiguous reason or excuse as to why you can't do what we suggest. 
> 
> If this is really how you want to take care of your animal, so be it. Just know that you aren't taking care of your animal in the best way that you could be. 
> 
> I am sorry if this comes off harsh but you are just not being cooperative at all. If you want help, take our advice.


i lold  trust me my snake is fine. i dont listen to u because its not needed.. i dont need something to do what i can do by turning down the heating pad... or off... since it only gets to that degree if my room is hot..  and i haven't asked a qwestion about my snake in over a week.. this post is very old and everything is fine..  

and.. im sorry to say this but yor snake is not my snake visa versa  my snake doesnt move his dirt.. my snake spends alot of his time on his logs...  

i do remember u saying logs and stuff are not needed... i have to ask.. do they sit in plastic tubs in Africa?  never new africa grew rubbermaid tubs.. thats crazy.. 

NO THEY CHILL ON LOGS, rocks, dirt. leaves... w/e they want  lol ide hate to be ur snake with a boring cage just dirt and 2 hides with a water dish... wow thats an ansome life to live for 30+ years  ROCK ON ... nah ill keep my cage how i no he likes it and buy him spendy items y... cuz he is mine and i want him to be happy.. kinda like my skink is chilling in a 150 dollar cage that i spent 2 hours fixing up... he eats  baby food.. dollar a jar... the good stuff lol 
Gerber< lol   also had to buy him some betadine.. 20 dollars for a small bottle just to clean his mouth from the impacted food...  

so when u say i dont take care of my animals u can check my food bill 

60 a month for my ferrets alone eating the high dollar food to keep them healthy 

i take very good care of my animals  

and yes I IGNORE U since all u talk about is TEMP TEMP HUMIDITY AND SOME MORE TEMP   temp is fine always has been  


kkthnx
tizzay

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## Kaorte

Just because you spend a lot of money, does not mean you are taking care of them right. 

I talk about what is important. A log is not important. Temps are important.

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_Swingline0.0.1_ (02-17-2010)

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## dr del

Hi,

I made a lot of these same statements when I first joined too.  :Smile: 




> i lold  trust me my snake is fine. i dont listen to u because its not needed.. i dont need something to do what i can do by turning down the heating pad... or off... since it only gets to that degree if my room is hot..  and i haven't asked a qwestion about my snake in over a week.. this post is very old and everything is fine..


You are going to kick yourself when you realise how much time you save by letting a thermostat do this for you (*much* more accurately and consistently than you could even if you spent 24/7 monitoring and adjusting ).  :Razz: 




> and.. im sorry to say this but yor snake is not my snake visa versa  my snake doesnt move his dirt.. my snake spends alot of his time on his logs...


All snakes do indeed have their individual quirks and habits - we try and give advice that prevents *any* possible problems though. The fact yours hasn't done this doesn't mean he never will and prevention is far better than dealing with the consequences (waaaay cheaper too ).

We get to see posts reporting all sorts of really wierd and uncommon snake behaviour and so will bring up possible problems that will sound utterly ridiculous  and improbable to you.  :Smile: 




> i do remember u saying logs and stuff are not needed... i have to ask.. do they sit in plastic tubs in Africa?  never new africa grew rubbermaid tubs.. thats crazy.. 
> 
> NO THEY CHILL ON LOGS, rocks, dirt. leaves... w/e they want  lol ide hate to be ur snake with a boring cage just dirt and 2 hides with a water dish... wow thats an ansome life to live for 30+ years  ROCK ON ... nah ill keep my cage how i no he likes it and buy him spendy items y... cuz he is mine and i want him to be happy..


Unless your tank is the size of a continent with a perfect hide for every possible combination of temp, humidity and security this argument is simply not relevant.

You cannot perfectly recreate all of Africa in an enclosure so have to try and replicate the part the animal actually wants to be in as closely as possible.

Africa doesn't grow rubbermaids - but you don't have a termite mound or rodent burrow in your house either.

Those two places are where the majority of ball pythons are found in the field and both have very specific and consistant temperatures and humidity ranges. They are also both dark and relatively cramped.

Snakes don't get bored - but they *do* get stressed.

Buy him an enclosure you enjoy looking at and fill it with expensive items by all means. Just make sure it provides the things the snake actually needs as well and know you are spending the money for you not for the snake.  :Good Job: 




> kinda like my skink is chilling in a 150 dollar cage that i spent 2 hours fixing up... he eats  baby food.. dollar a jar... the good stuff lol 
> Gerber< lol   also had to buy him some betadine.. 20 dollars for a small bottle just to clean his mouth from the impacted food...


Glad to hear you are getting him sorted.  :Salute: 

How does the baby food stack up as a diet for him? I have never kept a BTS so do not really know their nutritional requirements. 




> so when u say i dont take care of my animals u can check my food bill 
> 
> 60 a month for my ferrets alone eating the high dollar food to keep them healthy 
> 
> i take very good care of my animals


Glad to hear it but there really isn't a direct correlation between cost and quality  in setting up and maintaining reptile enclosures. Most people who buy a snake starter kit for big $$$ come on here and discover they just bought a load of high priced junk they don't need or want. And didn't get the most important peices of kit that they actually needed at all.




> and yes I IGNORE U since all u talk about is TEMP TEMP HUMIDITY AND SOME MORE TEMP   temp is fine always has been  
> 
> 
> kkthnx
> tizzay


Pity. 

She is actually giving you extremely good advice that would make your life easier, cheaper in the long term, and improve the living conditions for the animals in your care.

The reason she keeps talking about those two issues is because they are two of the three things that will make your snake truly thrive.


dr del

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_Elise.m_ (02-17-2010),_jben_ (02-17-2010),Kaorte (02-17-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (02-17-2010)

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## Elise.m

> and.. im sorry to say this but yor snake is not my snake visa versa  my snake doesnt move his dirt.. my snake spends alot of his time on his logs...  
> 
> i do remember u saying logs and stuff are not needed... i have to ask.. do they sit in plastic tubs in Africa?  never new africa grew rubbermaid tubs.. thats crazy.. 
> 
> NO THEY CHILL ON LOGS, rocks, dirt. leaves... w/e they want  lol ide hate to be ur snake with a boring cage just dirt and 2 hides with a water dish... wow thats an ansome life to live for 30+ years  ROCK ON ... nah ill keep my cage how i no he likes it and buy him spendy items y... cuz he is mine and i want him to be happy..


Actually they don't chill on logs in the wild. They hide, come out whenever they feel they're hungry or want to mate, and go back into their hide again. That is why they are one of the easiest snakes to take care of, because they don't NEED logs and other things, just two hides and a water bowl.

Seriously, you need to get your head out of the sky and listen to some things. It's always hard to admit you're doing something the way it's not recommended at first, but once you come around to it, it's makes a world difference.

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_jben_ (02-17-2010),_Swingline0.0.1_ (02-17-2010)

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