# Other Pets > Dogs >  Help with Lab Puppy

## KingWheatley

We have a pure bred (papers and things) Labrador puppy who needs some correction.

He's good when we are home. He's submissive around other dogs (and cats... there is a kitten across the street that has done nothing to him at all but he will hide behind whoever is walking him.) he doesn't beg at the table, nor does he beg when other people have food. He is bilingual (a joke. He knows his commands in both Spanish and English...) and listens to both myself and my roommate when we tell him to sit/stay/lay down etc. He has learned to not go to the bathroom inside (unless he absolutely can't hold it anymore, then he uses the laundry room.)

He is a very good and somewhat behaved puppy.

When he gets excited, he will start jumping, scratching and nipping. I've gotten him to stop actually biting, and almost broke his habit of raking his claws down a person out of sheer excitement... 

One thing neither of us can break is his destructive habits. I've tried several ways of communicating to him that we don't want him chewing up furniture or the remotes. Starting from giving him plenty of alternative options (toys and such), trying to wear him out before either of us leave for work, putting the spiciest hot sauce I could find on the parts he's begun to chew on (the kind that burns your nose. It was my "bright" idea... and it worked... but it stains....) Judging from the "obvious guilty dog" look he gives either of us, he KNOWS he's not supposed to. 

He's tore up all of his toys, his puppy bed, the cushions of the chairs outside as well as the chairs themselves, a humidifier, the vacuum hose,  ... and several remotes with the batteries still inside them... Not to mention the knife he chewed the handle of.... I came home to that. Don't know if my roommate or his daughter left that out, but yea... that made me want to throw up. My roommate keeps asking me what to do, because I have a decent amount of knowledge when it comes to dogs. However, I've exceeded my research and ability at this point.

Just short of sending the puppy to Petsmart's training school (1st class is free, but consecutive classes are $50 each, I think....), but I'm not 100% sure they will be able to break the destructive addiction...? And the longer it takes to break him out of it, the harder it will be.

Anyone have any other ideas?


Herp Derp

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## KingWheatley

(I didn't say a word when I took this photo. Just sent it to my roommate. The floor looks that way because earlier on he used to dig at the linoleum.)




Herp Derp

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## Fraido

That dog, I guarantee, needs a crap ton more exercise. Long walks, lots of play time, and I would seriously suggest crating him when nobody is home or able to watch him, unless that is 90 percent of the time.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-01-2016),anthroterra (11-01-2016),_bumblebee1028_ (11-02-2016),_GoingPostal_ (11-01-2016),KingWheatley (11-01-2016),PappyG (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016),rabernet (11-02-2016),_voodoolamb_ (11-01-2016),wolfy-hound (11-02-2016)

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## redshepherd

You'll need to start crate training (playing crate games, using the crate when everyone's home, eating in the crate, etc) for him, since it's possible he has separation anxiety and that's the outlet. An indoor kennel run (with same crate games for conditioning) would work too, if you want to give him more room. Like Fraido said, it might also be pent up energy. For all destructive behavior though, the first thing to do is crate/kennel train.

The crates from petco will almost definitely be destroyed by him though LOL, so I'd consider metal crates and kennel runs used for working dogs.

The petsmart training classes are iffy, usually for "puppy socialiation" and the very basics.. past that, you may or may not luck out with how much skill or experience the trainer actually has LOL. I'd look up trainers experienced in "behavior modification" if you want to find something that'll focus on the issue.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016),_voodoolamb_ (11-01-2016)

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## voodoolamb

I agree with the others... I doubt this dog is getting anywhere near enough exercise. 

Hint: a leashed walk is not exercise. 

This:



> Judging from the "obvious guilty dog" look he gives either of us, he KNOWS he's not supposed to.


Is a misconception. He's picking up on your body language and mood. Unless you correct the dog IN THE ACT there is absolutely zero association between when he chewed and why you are so mad. 

The dog needs to be supervised 100% of the time or crated. 

Chewing and destruction can be very very hard to stop because it is a self rewarding behavior that is very natural. Think about what a pack of wild dogs does when it catches a deer - rips and tears at the hide. Chews the bone. Do you know how some people are "stress eaters" or "boredom eaters"? Dogs are the same way. Destroying stuff feels really really good to them. It makes all their icky feelings go away. It's soothing. 

think of it this way - dogs learn through reinforcement. Everytime he chews something you dont want him to and you do not correct him while he is doing it - he has rewarded himself for chewing just the same as if you were there to say "good boy!". You can get him to make better decisions about what to chew by consistently marking and rewarding when he chews on the right things. If he goes to chew his bone tell him he's a good dog and give him a treat. He will learn chewing on the right stuff is better.  Imagine you have two fridges in your house. One in the same room as you, and one upstairs. Now imagine the one upstairs not only has food, but ALSO has a cash dispenser and will give you $20 everytime you open it. Think you'd go out of your way to get to the upstair fridge? Even if you were really really hungry?

This reinforcement for chewing good stuff needs to be very very consistent and there needs to be a lot of it at first. I would make a goal of rewarding the dog for chewing his toys say 50 times every day for a month, then gradually reducing the reinforcement rates. And making sure you can correct him every time he goes for a forbidden object. 

Up his physical exercise. He needs off leash and running time. and make sure he is mentally stimulated. Fun factoid: none of my dogs eat their food out of a dog bowl. Feeding time is great for enrichment. I usually either feed a large hunk of meat and bone they get to chew or I feed them through foraging activities. Look into kong toys, wobblers, snuffle matts, etc. Lots of puzzle toys can be homemade. Cutting a small hole in the corner of an empty milk jug and filling his kibble with that.

Personally I wouldn't waste my money on petsmart training. The good trainers in that company are few and far inbetween and they don't last long.

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_GoingPostal_ (11-01-2016),_Ogre_ (12-26-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016),rabernet (11-02-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> That dog, I guarantee, needs a crap ton more exercise. Long walks, lots of play time, and I would seriously suggest crating him when nobody is home or able to watch him, unless that is 90 percent of the time.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


I work nights and sleep during the day, and my roommate is not home a good period of time.  I'd say this pup is alone a good 75%-80% of the time. Usually he's outside in the backyard but it's getting cold.

I'll talk to my roommate about crate training....


Herp Derp

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## Fraido

> I work nights and sleep during the day, and my roommate is not home a good period of time.  I'd say this pup is alone a good 75%-80% of the time. Usually he's outside in the backyard but it's getting cold.
> 
> I'll talk to my roommate about crate training....
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


If that's the case I recommend rehoming as it's not really fair to him to be crated all the time or shoved in the backyard all the time, and not getting enough exercise.

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_GoingPostal_ (11-01-2016),KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016),_voodoolamb_ (11-01-2016)

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## voodoolamb

I agree with Fraido. Doesn't sound like a dog is a good fit for this living situation.

Dogs are very social animals. Being alone is so bad for them  :Sad:

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

But I have problems with  recommending a new and inexperienced dog owner to go for crates because more often then not I see things like this:




(That is a pure bred (no papers, but confirmed parents were both sheps )German shepherd. I asked the owner why she was so thin, and his response was because she was a runt. He opened the cage and she made a bee line for the nearest dog bowl, then started complaining about how badly behaved she was. Jumping up on counters, stealing other dog's food. I observed him giving her food... just a cup's worth. A single. Cup. I asked him how often she gets fed. "Just once a day." Told me she gets diarrhea frequently so feeding her too much makes her sick.)

But I'll see what I can do...


Herp Derp

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## voodoolamb

Those pics aren't great, but from what I can see, that is a healthy weight for a young female shepherd. They should be lean and mean. Out line of the last 2 ribs visible and the rest easily felt.

The behavior has nothing to do with the crate. It's a lack of training.

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_GoingPostal_ (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016),rabernet (11-02-2016),wolfy-hound (11-02-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> If that's the case I recommend rehoming ...





> ...Doesn't sound like a dog is a good fit for this living situation...


Social animals that they are, and I don't disagree with you. He got the dog for his daughter, who just simply wanted a pet to have and make her dad do all the work of caretaking....

I'll see if I can encourage him to rehome. He's a pure bred Lab in an area where they are common... And since he paid top-dollar for this pup, I would think that's what he'd expect back.

Any dog breeds you might recommend that I could use as alternative suggestions for him?


Herp Derp

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## Fraido

At this time, none, honestly. I think he should rehome and hold off getting a dog until he has the time to properly train and exercise one.

Tell him to get a cat.

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## Fraido

> But I have problems with  recommending a new and inexperienced dog owner to go for crates because more often then not I see things like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (That is a pure bred (no papers, but confirmed parents were both sheps )German shepherd. I asked the owner why she was so thin, and his response was because she was a runt. He opened the cage and she made a bee line for the nearest dog bowl, then started complaining about how badly behaved she was. Jumping up on counters, stealing other dog's food. I observed him giving her food... just a cup's worth. A single. Cup. I asked him how often she gets fed. "Just once a day." Told me she gets diarrhea frequently so feeding her too much makes her sick.)
> 
> But I'll see what I can do...
> 
> ...


About this, that's how I would expect a crate to look, add in a toy of some sort. The dog doesn't look too thin, and that's about what my dog eats, I fill her bowl (about two cups) and she doesn't finish it off until a couple days later, and feeding once a day is fine. I free feed because my dog doesn't overeat.

As long as the dog does come out, and is getting appropriate exercise, it's okay.

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_Ogre_ (12-26-2016),_voodoolamb_ (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> Those pics aren't great, but from what I can see, that is a healthy weight for a young female shepherd. They should be lean and mean. Out line of the last 2 ribs visible and the rest easily felt.
> 
> The behavior has nothing to do with the crate. It's a lack of training.


The photos were discreet and quick photos. She's very tiny, too thin, and not only could you see all her ribs, but her hip bones as well. And that's even through the fur. She's 2 years old. Her behavior reminds me of someone desperately grabbing at every chance for food one can get.

(Add the diarrhea... pretty sure that's a fair sign of malnourishment or possibly gobbling what food she got down too quickly. I didn't even bother checking for dehydration.)

It appeared to me she was starving,I talked to the owner's wife (who is a work friend) after and asked her to at LEAST give her a full bowl full once a day, if not twice a day.

She was also in the crate 100% of the time. When not going to the bathroom.

I don't want to get too much more into this because it makes me upset thinking about it, but since then she's gained weight. Though she's still in the crate all the time... but baby steps...


Herp Derp

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## KingWheatley

> About this, that's how I would expect a crate to look, add in a toy of some sort. The dog doesn't look too thin, and that's about what my dog eats, I fill her bowl (about two cups) and she doesn't finish it off until a couple days later, and feeding once a day is fine. I free feed because my dog doesn't overeat.
> 
> As long as the dog does come out, and is getting appropriate exercise, it's okay.


Then it's possible that it's dehydration coupled with the fact there is an underlying issue that's causing her to pass her food?

Regardless, that dog needs better care.


Herp Derp

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## Fraido

> The photos were discreet and quick photos. She's very tiny, too thin, and not only could you see all her ribs, but her hip bones as well. And that's even through the fur. She's 2 years old. Her behavior reminds me of someone desperately grabbing at every chance for food one can get.
> 
> It appeared to me she was starving. I talked to the owner's wife (who is a work friend) after and asked her to at LEAST give her a full bowl full once a day, if not twice a day.
> 
> She was also in the crate 100% of the time. When not going to the bathroom.
> 
> I don't want to get too much more into this because it makes me upset thinking about it, but since then she's gained weight. Though she's still in the crate all the time... but baby steps...
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


Well, yeah that's no good for the dog.

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## Fraido

> Then it's possible that it's dehydration coupled with the fact there is an underlying issue that's causing her to pass her food?
> 
> Regardless, that dog needs better care.
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


Couldn't tell you, honestly.

I do agree with this from what you just said.


I'm serious about the cat suggestion, though. Rehome dog, get a cuddly cat from a shelter. It's a great idea.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## voodoolamb

> The photos were discreet and quick photos. She's very tiny, too thin, and not only could you see all her ribs, but her hip bones as well. And that's even through the fur. She's 2 years old. Her behavior reminds me of someone desperately grabbing at every chance for food one can get.
> 
> (Add the diarrhea... pretty sure that's a fair sign of malnourishment or possibly gobbling what food she got down too quickly. I didn't even bother checking for dehydration.)
> 
> It appeared to me she was starving,I talked to the owner's wife (who is a work friend) after and asked her to at LEAST give her a full bowl full once a day, if not twice a day.
> 
> She was also in the crate 100% of the time. When not going to the bathroom.
> 
> I don't want to get too much more into this because it makes me upset thinking about it, but since then she's gained weight. Though she's still in the crate all the time... but baby steps...
> ...


GSDs aren't meant to be large dogs. Females should fall between 48 and 70 lbs as full grown adults and should be between 21 1/2 and 23 1/2 inches at the top of the shoulders. This girl is in my guy's pedigree: 



http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...-buckower-feld

See. She's barely even up to the guys knees and skiiiiiiiiiiiiiny. This dog is in ideal physical condition. GSDs are also a slow to mature breed, they are often skinny minis until 3 years. It takes them a long time to fully fill out. 

Americans are really used to seeing fat dogs

Also GSDs have notoriously sensitive digestive systems. Very very common in the breed.

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_Fraido_ (11-01-2016),KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016),wolfy-hound (11-02-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> Couldn't tell you, honestly.
> 
> I do agree with this from what you just said.
> 
> 
> I'm serious about the cat suggestion, though. Rehome dog, get a cuddly cat from a shelter. It's a great idea.


Good idea. I'll throw that suggestion out there as well. He thinks cats are mean though.


Herp Derp

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## KingWheatley

> GSDs aren't meant to be large dogs. Females should fall between 48 and 70 lbs as full grown adults and should be between 21 1/2 and 23 1/2 inches at the top of the shoulders. This girl is in my guy's pedigree: 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...-buckower-feld
> 
> See. She's barely even up to the guys knees and skiiiiiiiiiiiiiny. This dog is in ideal physical condition. GSDs are also a slow to mature breed, they are often skinny minis until 3 years. It takes them a long time to fully fill out. 
> 
> Americans are really used to seeing fat dogs


Just trust me, I know a severely underweight dog when I see one. If I had a better photo or if you saw that dog in person, you'd agree with me.

I just apologize for not having a better photo.

I can tell you she does not look at all like that photo. Her hips are showing in the one photo, though. You can see how the skin sinks in at the hip joint if you look close enough. Maybe you might see her spine. It's sunken in there too.

Have you ever seen a horse that is old and about to die? How they look like they've never seen food ever? That's what she looks like.

She sat in my lap. She felt maybe a little heavier than the Maltese and the cat together. I can tell you that's not going to be anywhere close to 40ibs. MAYBE 30-35.


Herp Derp

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## Fraido

> GSDs aren't meant to be large dogs. Females should fall between 48 and 70 lbs as full grown adults and should be between 21 1/2 and 23 1/2 inches at the top of the shoulders. This girl is in my guy's pedigree: 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ...-buckower-feld
> 
> See. She's barely even up to the guys knees and skiiiiiiiiiiiiiny. This dog is in ideal physical condition. GSDs are also a slow to mature breed, they are often skinny minis until 3 years. It takes them a long time to fully fill out. 
> 
> Americans are really used to seeing fat dogs
> ...


Lol, so true about being used to seeing fat dogs.  Labs around here are fat as all heck, though I've heard there's a reason for them overeating so often or whatever?



> Good idea. I'll throw that suggestion out there as well. He thinks cats are mean though.
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


Cat's aren't mean. 😣 Look at that vicious beast.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-02-2016),KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> Cat's aren't mean.  Look at that vicious beast.





(Oh my god I'm crying right now)

here's an ex little viscous beast of mine... I couldn't convince him before that cats aren't mean, but hopefully with repetition he will get it? Lol

[edit: WAIT... I found another photo...]




Herp Derp

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-02-2016),_Fraido_ (11-01-2016)

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## Fraido

> (Oh my god I'm crying right now)
> 
> here's an ex little viscous beast of mine... I couldn't convince him before that cats aren't mean, but hopefully with repetition he will get it? Lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


If this doesn't scream "NOT MEAN, CUDDLY," I don't know what does! 😂

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-02-2016),KingWheatley (11-01-2016)

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## PythonBabes

American dogs are so unhealthy, bothers me a lot but oh well.

When it comes down to dogs, and especially puppies, its just exercise. I have a 3 year old game bred pit-bull, all that dog does is run around and play. If you or the owners don't have time to exercise the dog, it needs to be re homed. I can see from the picture that the dog is an American or field type lab, they're bred for hunting, that's not a calm family dog, if you think the behavior is destructive now, without proper exercise, its only going to get worse. 

Sad that the person paid top-dollar for a dog and it isn't even being used for what it was bred for.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016),wolfy-hound (11-02-2016)

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## Russdent

I have a Lab who has just had his second birthday, He has never ripped anything up or really misbehaved at all but he gets 2 long walks a day and plays with my girls when they are at home, As labs are a working dog he needs lots of exercise as they do become destructive due to boredom and way to much energy. 
As I said my lab is 2 and he still occasionally jumps up at people this is a lab thing they do slowly grow out of it but you do need to be firm with them as they will respect you more. 
Also they are a family dog that needs people with them as much as possible if he is alone 75% of the time he may be bored. 

When he has settled down you will not have a better friend in the world.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> American dogs are so unhealthy, bothers me a lot but oh well.
> 
> When it comes down to dogs, and especially puppies, its just exercise. I have a 3 year old game bred pit-bull, all that dog does is run around and play. If you or the owners don't have time to exercise the dog, it needs to be re homed. I can see from the picture that the dog is an American or field type lab, they're bred for hunting, that's not a calm family dog, if you think the behavior is destructive now, without proper exercise, its only going to get worse. 
> 
> Sad that the person paid top-dollar for a dog and it isn't even being used for what it was bred for.


Agreed. Though I am helping with raising the dog as much as I can, I can't be the only one, especially since I work nights and sleep during the day. 


Herp Derp

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## KingWheatley

> I have a Lab who has just had his second birthday, He has never ripped anything up or really misbehaved at all but he gets 2 long walks a day and plays with my girls when they are at home, As labs are a working dog he needs lots of exercise as they do become destructive due to boredom and way to much energy. 
> As I said my lab is 2 and he still occasionally jumps up at people this is a lab thing they do slowly grow out of it but you do need to be firm with them as they will respect you more. 
> Also they are a family dog that needs people with them as much as possible if he is alone 75% of the time he may be bored. 
> 
> When he has settled down you will not have a better friend in the world.


No joke. He's a people pleaser for sure. Loves love so much I'm surprised he doesn't pee himself with someone pets him. Lol


Herp Derp

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## voodoolamb

> Lol, so true about being used to seeing fat dogs.  Labs around here are fat as all heck, though I've heard there's a reason for them overeating so often or whatever?


Yes. Labs are prone to weight gain for a reason - duck hunting and fishing duties.  :Smile:  Dog's that could keep an extra layer of fat on themselves stayed warmer in the cold water. Lot's of the water breeds tend to be chunky monkeys.

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_Fraido_ (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## Bcycling

Although I agree with many of the statements above, the dog needs exercise and needs to be crate trained ect.  There are some other things that need to be done and some that are just that breed of dog.  Before anyone says anything, yes I do train field dogs.  Have trained labs in the past but my new passion is German shorthairs.  I actually have two I am currently working with that are field trained bird dogs.  

Shorthairs red are infamous for being counter surfers and to find one that isn't is the exception to the rule.  Can this behavior be broke, absolutely, but it requires a lot of training and commitment by the owner. A dog trainer can start the process, but the owner needs to continue to train the dog or all is for nothing.

labs on the other hand are very mouthy dogs.  They are chewers.  Although that dog looks like a field bred dog to some people, I seriously doubt it unless it was purchased as a field dog.  90% of the labs today are not from strong hunting lines, although there are a few good breeders out there still who produce great field labs. Most are not though.  IMO if that dog is to be kept walks are not needed as previously posted by someone.  What that dog needs to do is run and swim.  If there is not enough time for such things then find a way it can burn off energy fast. 

My my suggestion is to teach it to play frizbee.  Frizbee can burn out energy like nothing else.  Twice a day for 15-20 minutes and that dog will be wore out.  Here's the catch, like anything else, the more you play the more stamina the dog will have and it will be able to play longer and longer.  You need to work on house training the dog when it is tired from activity. Labs get tired fast, but recoup energy fast.  Also, get the black cong toys and fill them with peanut butter and freeze them.  The dog will sit and play with the thing for a few hrs at a time.  Gives it something to do.  

Want to to see a dog that does not tire fast get a shorthair.  I have one that I can hunt for 4 hrs in the morning, 4 hrs in the afternoon and she wants to come home and play with my kids, but they are not chewers like labs.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## Russdent

When my Leo was small small up until about 6 months old he used to pee himself when we come home, Never told him off he just loved everyone to much. Now he just gives us one of his toys when we get in. 

I did see another user say about only telling him off when you *catch* him doing something naughty and *not after* you have got home, If you tell him off later on after he has finished being naughty he will never know why you are shouting at him and just think you are in a mood.

A lot of dog training is common sense its just knowing where, when and how and even more training is needed by us as the owner and not the dog, My dog is nowhere near perfect he has his bad days but he is good enough for us and does not cause any trouble to anyone. 

Just try to exercise him as much as possible as they are big working dogs that love to see there owner happy and love to have company. You cant go wrong with a lab for friendliness and being art of the family.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## noodlestsc

My advice is to rehome the dog to a home that has the time to provide the dog with it's needs.  Dogs, especially a breed like a lab, needs to have ample amount of exercise.  A tired dog is a happy (and non destructive) dog.  You will not break the destructive habit unless the dog has another outlet to release its energy.

Knowing you, you are going to take this the wrong way but it's not meant to be, a dog with yours and your roomie's schedule is not a good fit.  If I remember correctly from previous posts, it's your roomie's dog not yours?  So it would be your roomie's decision.  You can crate for extended times, but a younger dog needs the exercise time end of story.  And if you don't want to trust the words of people on the forum, just google it, it is a well known fact.

I have had my lab since she was 6 months old and she is 11 now and still has a ton of energy.  Coincidentally I got her from an older couple who owned her parents and didn't have time to take care of an energetic puppy.  Although because she is older, she doesn't mind the extended alone time (she is alone with my other dog, an 8 year old shih-tzu and my 2 year old cat for about 12-13 hours during the daytime)  Again though, these are older dogs so their needs are different.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## noodlestsc

> But I have problems with  recommending a new and inexperienced dog owner to go for crates because more often then not I see things like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (That is a pure bred (no papers, but confirmed parents were both sheps )German shepherd. I asked the owner why she was so thin, and his response was because she was a runt. He opened the cage and she made a bee line for the nearest dog bowl, then started complaining about how badly behaved she was. Jumping up on counters, stealing other dog's food. I observed him giving her food... just a cup's worth. A single. Cup. I asked him how often she gets fed. "Just once a day." Told me she gets diarrhea frequently so feeding her too much makes her sick.)
> 
> But I'll see what I can do...
> 
> ...


Doesn't look underfed to me.  German shepards (and labs) are garbage pails and will eat and eat and eat, so just because he ran for the food means NOTHING.  My lab will eat her food and then go look for my wife to trick her into thinking I didn't feed her.  By the way my lab only gets 1 solo cup of food a day. A little more on the weekends.  And just like humans are different sizes and weights so are dogs.  My lab is also a smaller one, weighing in at only 65lbs most of her life and is of healthy shape and size for her.

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## KingWheatley

> Doesn't look underfed to me.  German shepards (and labs) are garbage pails and will eat and eat and eat, so just because he ran for the food means NOTHING.  My lab will eat her food and then go look for my wife to trick her into thinking I didn't feed her.  By the way my lab only gets 1 solo cup of food a day. A little more on the weekends.  And just like humans are different sizes and weights so are dogs.  My lab is also a smaller one, weighing in at only 65lbs most of her life and is of healthy shape and size for her.


Perhaps she gets the right amount of food.

But this dog is literally underweight and just skin and bones. If you read some of my responses you can see the skin SUNKEN IN.

After increasing her food though, the diarrhea stopped, she looks much healthier, and doesn't desperately scavenge for food.

So I'm sorry, but I really think you are wrong. If your dog's spine is showing each nob and you can count all the ribs and see the bone structure without cushion... your dog is not receiving the nourishment it needs. Either because it has worms, not the proper food, or something otherwise.

You CANNOT tell me that any animal where you can see all the divots in its skeleton through its skin is healthy...?


Herp Derp

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## KingWheatley

Spoke with my roommate. He doesn't want to get a crate, or rehome the pup.

Though he likes the idea of the cong with Peanut Butter in it


Herp Derp

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## noodlestsc

Well judging by the pictures you posted of the dog in the cage it looked fine to me.  I can't really see the spine or divets or sunken in areas through the bars of the cage.  My bad.

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## KingWheatley

> Well judging by the pictures you posted of the dog in the cage it looked fine to me.  I can't really see the spine or divets or sunken in areas through the bars of the cage.  My bad.


Yea that's why I had to go into detail. I was trying to be discreet about it.

If you kinda look closely, you can kind of see, but it's still hard to tell with the quality of the photo.


Herp Derp

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## Bcycling

> Perhaps she gets the right amount of food.
> 
> But this dog is literally underweight and just skin and bones. If you read some of my responses you can see the skin SUNKEN IN.
> 
> After increasing her food though, the diarrhea stopped, she looks much healthier, and doesn't desperately scavenge for food.
> 
> So I'm sorry, but I really think you are wrong. If your dog's spine is showing each nob and you can count all the ribs and see the bone structure without cushion... your dog is not receiving the nourishment it needs. Either because it has worms, not the proper food, or something otherwise.
> 
> You CANNOT tell me that any animal where you can see all the divots in its skeleton through its skin is healthy...?
> ...


actually that's not always true about seeing bones.  I have a shorthair you could see all her bones until she was 2.  I was concerned about it.  Fed her as much as she would eat and even was feeding her high calorie diets.  Took her to the vet every three months.  Vet said she is healthy and will put on weight when she slows down.  That took two years.  I was worried someone was going to call on me for neglect so I kept taking her to the vet.  I could see every spine bone and her ribs.  They dog literally would not stop moving from the time the lights went on in the morning till they went off at night.  She was crated during the day to help her conserve energy.  Sometimes dogs are just very thin no matter what you do.  I tried everything, but the dog would only eat so much.  You can't force feed a dog.  This dog is not driven by food.  I could put her favorite human dish on the floor next to a pheasant wing and she would choose to point the pheasant wing instead of eating. She eats maybe a cup twice a day, although she rarely finishes her food.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## IsmQui718

That pup needs a ton of exercise as mentioned by others. A tired dog will not destroy anything. Crating when nobody is home is an absolute must when nobody is home. As far as beds are concerned, I don't invest too much on fancy beds until they are grown past the destructive puppy phase. Used cheap $6 fleece blankets for my dogs when they were puppies, as they'd trash their beds. 

I don't recommend leaving puppies unattended in the year for long periods of time. That's a recipe for mischief. Also, you run the risk of him escaping the yard. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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_GoingPostal_ (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## IsmQui718

Also, in terms of correct body weight for a dog, you should be able to feel the dogs ribs very easily, but not see them. Some dogs who are EXTREMELY active will have a rib or two showing (body score of 4/9) but it's usually because they require a higher calorie diet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> That pup needs a ton of exercise as mentioned by others. A tired dog will not destroy anything. Crating when nobody is home is an absolute must when nobody is home. As far as beds are concerned, I don't invest too much on fancy beds until they are grown past the destructive puppy phase. Used cheap $6 fleece blankets for my dogs when they were puppies, as they'd trash their beds. 
> 
> I don't recommend leaving puppies unattended in the year for long periods of time. That's a recipe for mischief. Also, you run the risk of him escaping the yard. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I will do what I can to help, but as far as purchasing toys and such, I have to leave that up to my roommate. I'm not going to be permanent in the family, so I've been trying to keep the puppy from attaching to me. 


Herp Derp

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## noodlestsc

> Spoke with my roommate. He doesn't want to get a crate, or rehome the pup.
> 
> Though he likes the idea of the cong with Peanut Butter in it
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


....and with this response I now have to block this user out of my life otherwise I'm going to go insane.  Yup let's just ask a question and then ignore all of the advice.  By the way again, if you don't trust the advice of the users here, every resource, trainer, etc you will find will say the dog needs an ample way to release the energy.  One toy with peanut butter in it is not going to solve the lack of being neglected by owners who have zero time to devote to the dog.  A toy will work for an hour.

Don't worry mods you won't here any more bad tone msgs from me on this user, because they are going on my ignore list.

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## GoingPostal

Your roommate will have a much harder time rehoming the pup in a few more months which is what's likely to happen, 9 months to a year is when most people finally give up and rehome or dump at a shelter after buying a cute puppy they had no time for and didn't bother training.  Puppies are a time commitment, they need a lot of training, socializing, exercise/play in order to make a good canine citizen.  If he came from an ethical breeder (which I doubt)  he should be able to return the dog to them.  I agree the dog should be returned or rehomed, preferably through a reputable rescue.  One of these days the dog is going to eat something he shouldn't and get an obstruction or serious injuries and sounds like he is left unattended for far too long each day.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## voodoolamb

Peanut butter is both high calorie and high in sugar. One way ticket to a fat, yeasty, cancer riddled pup. If offered daily.

There are much healthier kong stuffings. 

Also be sure to reduce the daily meal ration when providing stuffed kongs.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## Bcycling

> Peanut butter is both high calorie and high in sugar. One way ticket to a fat, yeasty, cancer riddled pup. If offered daily.
> 
> There are much healthier kong stuffings. 
> 
> Also be sure to reduce the daily meal ration when providing stuffed kongs.


whats kinda funny about this comment is the fact that I have had multiple vets reccomend peanut butter in the congs. Actually isn't that much when you put it in a Kong and my dog was way under weight when it was suggested.  No risk of cancer from a dog that gets more exercise than 99.9% of dogs in the world. And yes I can prove that.  All my dogs are professional guide dogs, they run pheasants 6 months of the year and the other six months are spent training for the next season.   I never heard peanut butter causes cancer in dogs, would like to see some documentation on that.  The only real information on that fact is that some speciality peanut butters contain the sweatener *Xylitol which is bad.*

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016)

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## Fraido

> ....and with this response I now have to block this user out of my life otherwise I'm going to go insane.  Yup let's just ask a question and then ignore all of the advice.  By the way again, if you don't trust the advice of the users here, every resource, trainer, etc you will find will say the dog needs an ample way to release the energy.  One toy with peanut butter in it is not going to solve the lack of being neglected by owners who have zero time to devote to the dog.  A toy will work for an hour.
> 
> Don't worry mods you won't here any more bad tone msgs from me on this user, because they are going on my ignore list.


This response is a little ridiculous. Considering it's not HER dog, it's not up to HER, if her roommate isn't going to take any of the advice she has already gone out of her way to get then what the heck is she supposed to do?

Get mad at her roomie, but to sit here and get angry with her and trying to say she is refusing the advice is wrong.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-02-2016),KingWheatley (11-01-2016)

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## redshepherd

Wait, have you suggested an indoor kennel run? I know that is what I'll be using if any of my next dogs have destructive behavior/separation anxiety. They're just a large confined space.

Please suggest to your roommate to contact a positive dog trainer local to you who is experienced in behavior modification. (The term is "behavior modification" which includes special methods of training) That's really the best thing to do right now, since she doesn't want to rehome or get a crate apparently. I didn't read the whole thread, but it doesn't seem like finding a local trainer (NOT petco/petsmart) was mentioned.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## Nellasaur

Another voice here saying that the most humane thing y'all can do for  that dog is rehome it.  If your irresponsible roommate won't take  proactive steps to reduce the destruction, it will not stop.   Destruction on this scale isn't going to go away because the puppy gets a  stuffed Kong once a day.  That poor dog needs way more exercise,  energetic play, and crate training at least, and possibly behavior mod  training with a licensed, reputable dog trainer if it turns out the  destruction is anxiety-related instead of or in addition to  energy-related.

I know it's not your dog, it's just your roommate's-- and that your  roommate has already shown himself to be irresponsible and impulsive  with animals, to boot-- but it's going to be really important for you to  let him know in no uncertain terms what he's in for if he doesn't take  most or all of the steps suggested here by the folks on this forum. That  is, that he can expect this level of destruction to continue or  possibly even increase as the dog becomes even more bored and frustrated  with his boredom.

Also, I know somebody hit on this before but it's important enough that I feel it should be reiterated: *dogs have no conception of "should".*   If you come in the door to a destroyed mess and the dog starts acting  guilty, like he "knows better", like he "knows he shouldn't", literally  the only thing that's happening is he's reacting to your body language  as you express displeasure, dismay, or anger.  Dogs are especially  attuned to human moods and can easily pick up on how you're feeling.

There are a few things that YOU can do to possibly attempt to make  things easier on the dog, even if your roommate won't take the Big Steps  that have been suggested here.  A big one is controlling your reaction  to the mess when it happens-- seriously, don't react.  If you're upset  or angry, control that and express it later, away from the dog.  With  the puppy, you want to show only indifference as you clean up after the  fact.  If you catch the dog in the act of destruction, then yes, show  your displeasure (reasonably) and correct the behavior firmly.  (Note  that this does not mean punishing him for it.)  If you can coach your  roommate and his daughter to do the same, all the better.

Another thing you can do, as suggested above, is reinforce appropriate  chewing behaviors when you see the dog engaging in them.  Praise and  treats are a great way to reinforce when puppy is gnawing on or playing  with the things he should be.  Again, if you can convince roomie and  daughter to do the same, even better-- you'll notice a much more  significant improvement in the behavior if everyone in the household is  giving the dog the same consistent training signals.

If you're ever responsible for feeding the dog, offer the food in a  foraging toy like someone else suggested.  If you're so inclined and you  can afford them (or if you can get your roommate to spring for them),  you can buy a few at a pet store-- something like a Kong wobbler or a  puzzle feeder is a great choice.  You can even make cheap puzzle feeders  at home.  Someone mentioned the milk jug above, which is a great  suggestion.  Another one is to take a cardboard box, like a cereal box,  stuff it with crumpled paper, and then pour the food in there and let  the dog rip it apart for his meal.  Hell, if your floors are clean and  free of debris, just throwing his food on the floor and letting it  scatter is better for engaging the dog's brain and getting energy out  than feeding it in a bowl.

IMPORTANT TIP FOR FORAGE FEEDERS: If you or the roomie end up buying  puzzle feeders, do not leave the dog alone with them.  Since he's  already shown a penchant for destruction, it's very likely he'll chew  them up or destroy them, and they can be spendy.  Just feed, supervise  the feed, and remove when the dog is done.  If you use makeshift puzzle  feeders, make sure to clean up the debris after the feeding and  discard/replace as soon as they start getting worn or coming apart.

I'd say "I hope this information helps", but honestly, these steps are  like throwing a couple of sandbags in the river because your roommate  apparently refuses to build a dam.  There's not much you're going to be  able to do if your roommate won't commit to crate  training/exercise/behavior mod or rehoming the dog to a family that can  meet its needs appropriately.

Good luck.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016),_voodoolamb_ (11-01-2016)

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## Bcycling

Let's get back to the point.  The point being its a lab.  They are a destructive breed.  I have owned many of them in my life, and some are way worse than others.  You can run the dog as much as you want and some will still be destructive when left alone for as little as a few minutes.  I had one who I hunted and ran everyday.  At just over a year old I remember it ate and swallowed a remote for the tv as I went to get a drink. It was just a few minutes.  All puppies should be crate trained until you know they don't chew.  Yes, the dog should have an outlet for its energy, yes it should have toys, but I have yet to meet a lab that didn't chew no matter how much it was run.  They tire easily from runs being a larger boned dog, but they recoup fast and you are never going to run and exercise a lab to the point you can leave it and not worry about destruction. Bottom line is exercise, start indoor training, give it toys, but crate train it.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## voodoolamb

> whats kinda funny about this comment is the fact that I have had multiple vets reccomend peanut butter in the congs. Actually isn't that much when you put it in a Kong and my dog was way under weight when it was suggested.  No risk of cancer from a dog that gets more exercise than 99.9% of dogs in the world. And yes I can prove that.  All my dogs are professional guide dogs, they run pheasants 6 months of the year and the other six months are spent training for the next season.   I never heard peanut butter causes cancer in dogs, would like to see some documentation on that.  The only real information on that fact is that some speciality peanut butters contain the sweatener *Xylitol which is bad.*


Very few vets specialized in nutrition. 

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com...ogs-or-people/

httphttp://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/09/17/aflatoxin-invisible-food-hazard.htmlinvisible-food-hazard.html

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0201100149.htm

Aflatoxin and excess sugar have both been linked with cancer. Peanut butter has both. It's fine as an occasional treat but not something that is healthy to feed every day. 

I stuff my dog's kongs with cooked meat, kefir, yogurt, carob paste, fruits and vegetables.

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## Spiritserpents

You might also tell your roomate that, being this dog is a lab, the destruction is not only absolutely 100% going to GET WORSE as the dog gets older, it will probably also consume the stuff its destroying and eventually need several thousand dollars worth of surgery to remove whatever object from its stomach or intestines.

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_GoingPostal_ (11-01-2016),KingWheatley (11-01-2016),Nellasaur (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## Bcycling

> Very few vets specialized in nutrition. 
> 
> http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com...ogs-or-people/
> 
> httphttp://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/09/17/aflatoxin-invisible-food-hazard.htmlinvisible-food-hazard.html
> 
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0201100149.htm
> 
> Aflatoxin and excess sugar have both been linked with cancer. Peanut butter has both. It's fine as an occasional treat but not something that is healthy to feed every day. 
> ...


interesting reads, although like everything must be interpreted.  The first article had to do with know carcinogens in humans.  Probably the same as in dogs, but what quantity is needed to be an issue.  A tablespoon a day?  I doubt it.  The second article might be more interesting if it wasn't written by someone who has something to gain by saying what he is saying.  He is a promoter of health foods for dogs. Does he have an agenda, I say yes.  He is also a proponent of feeding dogs raw meat.  I have actually at one point thought about this so I have done a little research on the idea.  A very respected vet I know advised against it. Yes, he admitted it could be good for some dogs, but there are a number of dogs that will develop permanent or long last irritable bowel syndrome.  This is a condition I don't want any of my dogs to get.  So everyone who has a good idea, there are side effects to each of them.  I don't have any fat or overweight dogs, but if i did I would watch what they eat.  I actually monitor my dogs weight very closely to make sure they are not loosing to much or gaining to much weight. During the height of the hunting season I make sure they are not dropping weight, and actually prefer them to put on 2-4 pounds.  In the off season sure they stay at 51 to 53 pounds each.  That is their ideal weight.

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## voodoolamb

> interesting reads, although like everything must be interpreted.  The first article had to do with know carcinogens in humans.  Probably the same as in dogs, but what quantity is needed to be an issue.  A tablespoon a day?  I doubt it.  The second article might be more interesting if it wasn't written by someone who has something to gain by saying what he is saying.  He is a promoter of health foods for dogs. Does he have an agenda, I say yes.  He is also a proponent of feeding dogs raw meat.  I have actually at one point thought about this so I have done a little research on the idea.  A very respected vet I know advised against it. Yes, he admitted it could be good for some dogs, but there are a number of dogs that will develop permanent or long last irritable bowel syndrome.  This is a condition I don't want any of my dogs to get.  So everyone who has a good idea, there are side effects to each of them.  I don't have any fat or overweight dogs, but if i did I would watch what they eat.  I actually monitor my dogs weight very closely to make sure they are not loosing to much or gaining to much weight. During the height of the hunting season I make sure they are not dropping weight, and actually prefer them to put on 2-4 pounds.  In the off season sure they stay at 51 to 53 pounds each.  That is their ideal weight.


Meh. I feed raw and home cooked food for my dogs for over 20 years. I believe variety in food is the most important aspect of feeding. My current vet recommends against feeding kibble. But anywho...

Regardless of personal feeding philosophies, you need to keep in mind you are an atypical dog owner. Your dogs get appropriate amounts of exercise and do legitimate work. They can handle an extra 200 - 300 calories a day. Probably even need it. Most American pets cannot. It's the equivalent of giving them an extra scoop of food. The dog the OP is talking about is a extremely under exercised young dog that already looks like he has some meat on his bones and is a breed prone to weight gain. 

Peanut butter kongs just don't sound like a good fit in this situation. A cheap can of wet dog food can be used to stuff the kong, it will be lower calorie and have the proper balance of macro and micro nutrients so it would be more suitable for daily feeding of this dog.

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## Nellasaur

> Peanut butter kongs just don't sound like a good fit in this situation. A cheap can of wet dog food can be used to stuff the kong, it will be lower calorie and have the proper balance of macro and micro nutrients so it would be more suitable for daily feeding of this dog.


Another alternative is to fill the Kong with a portion of the dog's daily ration of kibble and use a teaspoon or so of peanut butter to seal the opening, then freeze.  That's what we do in the shelter here and the dogs love it.  Still maybe not the best choice for a daily treat unless the dog gets exercised a lot more, but better than using only peanut butter, at least.  

For that matter, rotating between various fillings will keep the dog engaged with the toy longer and make it more intellectually valuable from day to day.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_voodoolamb_ (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> You might also tell your roomate that, being this dog is a lab, the destruction is not only absolutely 100% going to GET WORSE as the dog gets older, it will probably also consume the stuff its destroying and eventually need several thousand dollars worth of surgery to remove whatever object from its stomach or intestines.


Oh I pointed this out HEAVILY when I was talking to him about the remotes.

He could have swallowed the batteries...


Herp Derp

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## KingWheatley

> Wait, have you suggested an indoor kennel run? I know that is what I'll be using if any of my next dogs have destructive behavior/separation anxiety. They're just a large confined space.
> 
> Please suggest to your roommate to contact a positive dog trainer local to you who is experienced in behavior modification. (The term is "behavior modification" which includes special methods of training) That's really the best thing to do right now, since she doesn't want to rehome or get a crate apparently. I didn't read the whole thread, but it doesn't seem like finding a local trainer (NOT petco/petsmart) was mentioned.


I haven't yet. Never heard of an indoor kennel run to be honest. I have spoken to him about training courses. He wanted to do Petsmart because the "first class is free."


Herp Derp

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## Bcycling

> Meh. I feed raw and home cooked food for my dogs for over 20 years. I believe variety in food is the most important aspect of feeding. My current vet recommends against feeding kibble. But anywho...
> 
> Regardless of personal feeding philosophies, you need to keep in mind you are an atypical dog owner. Your dogs get appropriate amounts of exercise and do legitimate work. They can handle an extra 200 - 300 calories a day. Probably even need it. Most American pets cannot. It's the equivalent of giving them an extra scoop of food. The dog the OP is talking about is a extremely under exercised young dog that already looks like he has some meat on his bones and is a breed prone to weight gain. 
> 
> Peanut butter kongs just don't sound like a good fit in this situation. A cheap can of wet dog food can be used to stuff the kong, it will be lower calorie and have the proper balance of macro and micro nutrients so it would be more suitable for daily feeding of this dog.


that is probably true of my dogs and the dogs I train. I train them to hunt first then worry about household behaviors. My dogs are probably a little atypical of most working dogs also because they are family pets also, most working dogs are not and spend a great deal of time alone.  My opinion is based on the fact that the dogs need exercise first.  It's much easier to train any dog that is not working on a full tank.  When I train dogs to work or "behave" in the house, they are always exercised first. A well exercised dog will train much easier after a run than before. I wouldn't reccomend it to anyone who has no clue what they are doing, but the first thing a dog needs to learn is the come cammand. Once the dog listens to that 100% of the time the dog can then be exercised appropriately. A walk on a leash, or even going running with your dog doesn't cut it.  I jog with my dogs, and any I am training, every morning. That is not exercise for them. They don't even pant or want water after 2-3 mile jog.  Dogs need to run at their own pace to get their energy out. 

My my opinion of the dog who is in question. One or two things will happen.  One it will chew and swallow something it shouldn't and probably die, or the persons roommate will eventually move and not be able to take the dog, at which point it will be dumped on someone else.  Those are the dogs that can be great rescues if someone knowledgable can put some time into them.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

The solution is easy if it is YOUR dog do what is necessary to prevent the behaviour, tons of good advice have alreay been offered.

If it's NOT your dog, move out or have your roommate and his dog move out, if this is the same roommate you were having issues with regarding your snake it won't be a loss anyway, if it is a different roommate than you need to start choosing your roommates a little more wisely or live on your own.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-02-2016),_Fraido_ (11-01-2016),KingWheatley (11-01-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> that is probably true of my dogs and the dogs I train. I train them to hunt first then worry about household behaviors. My dogs are probably a little atypical of most working dogs also because they are family pets also, most working dogs are not and spend a great deal of time alone.  My opinion is based on the fact that the dogs need exercise first.  It's much easier to train any dog that is not working on a full tank.  When I train dogs to work or "behave" in the house, they are always exercised first. A well exercised dog will train much easier after a run than before. I wouldn't reccomend it to anyone who has no clue what they are doing, but the first thing a dog needs to learn is the come cammand. Once the dog listens to that 100% of the time the dog can then be exercised appropriately. A walk on a leash, or even going running with your dog doesn't cut it.  I jog with my dogs, and any I am training, every morning. That is not exercise for them. They don't even pant or want water after 2-3 mile jog.  Dogs need to run at their own pace to get their energy out. 
> 
> My my opinion of the dog who is in question. One or two things will happen.  One it will chew and swallow something it shouldn't and probably die, or the persons roommate will eventually move and not be able to take the dog, at which point it will be dumped on someone else.  Those are the dogs that can be great rescues if someone knowledgable can put some time into them.


OOOOOOOoooooohhhhhh. Duh....That makes sense... I mean we can't lose weight by chewing gum, so why would a dog?

Speaking of... I really think the destructive habits would cease if dogs had gum to chew... I know I stop fiddling with stuff when I am chewing gum. 

My roommate owns the dog and the house. I am just renting a room to help him with mortgage while his daughter is in college.

So one of three things will happen...

1.) The dog will chew something it shouldn't and get seriously hurt/die

2.) I will eventually move out and while this won't make too much of a difference for the dog, my Roommate will likely feel overwhelmed and rehome it on his own anyways

3.) My roommate will get abusive towards the dog.

And to clarify that 3rd option, this is just based on observations of frustration and lack of communication and to my knowledge this can blossom very quickly into abusive venting of frustration. (My roomie treated the dog ALL day with "I'm mad at you, [Nickname he's given the dog that is the Spanish equivalent to "DumbButt"]" and just shoved him outside and verbally told me to not play with the pup because he was in trouble.)


Herp Derp

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## voodoolamb

That poor pup  :Sad:

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> ...move out... if this is the same roommate you were having issues with regarding your snake it won't be a loss anyway...


Well, at this moment, the problem with that is simply that it's cheap rent for me. In the area, the lowest payment I can find is an efficiency apartment at $350, but that's not including utilities, which can easily make a monthly payment of $450-$500 if I'm living on a very tight budget, which I cannot afford. And the majority of apartments around here do not allow pets of any kind. Those that do have a "no exotic" rule.

So my only hope is finding Prince Charming and moving in with him in hopes that he likes snakes.... lol I'm joking... kinda.


Herp Derp

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## redshepherd

I mean... I guess it sounds like the roommate is not even open to real solutions right now anyway, so there's not really any need to make the thread except to find out what "could have" worked.

Maybe when she gets actually desperate for a solution in the future, you can recall this thread and suggest her to follow it.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-01-2016)

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## Bcycling

I have a solution, don't know why I didn't think of it sooner   Find it a good home.  Give it away when he is gone and say it ran away.

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## voodoolamb

> I have a solution, don't know why I didn't think of it sooner   Find it a good home.  Give it away when he is gone and say it ran away.


Hahaha. Funny joke. If only things could be that easy.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> I mean... I guess it sounds like the roommate is not even open to real solutions right now anyway, so there's not really any need to make the thread except to find out what "could have" worked.
> 
> Maybe when she gets actually desperate for a solution in the future, you can recall this thread and suggest her to follow it.


He asked me to help him. I tried then when I couldn't find a solution on my own, I came here. -shrug- sorry if this offended you. I can't do anything to the dog without his ok.

What I can do, though, is while he is in Mexico for a couple weeks I'd take the puppy out for a jog every day. Unless the daughter takes the puppy. I don't know.


Herp Derp

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## KingWheatley

> I have a solution, don't know why I didn't think of it sooner   Find it a good home.  Give it away when he is gone and say it ran away.


I said this to him as a joke a while ago. In response to him saying he'd make my snake into a taco.... 


Herp Derp

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## rabernet

> He asked me to help him. I tried then when I couldn't find a solution on my own, I came here. -shrug- sorry if this offended you. I can't do anything to the dog without his ok.
> 
> What I can do, though, is while he is in Mexico for a couple weeks I'd take the puppy out for a jog every day. Unless the daughter takes the puppy. I don't know.
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


It sounds to me like he doesn't really want help. What he'd LIKE to happen is that he waves a magic wand, and the dog is perfect, if I'm interpreting your written words correctly. 

Dogs take work, lots of it. And I wouldn't even CONSIDER getting a dog unless it was crate trained. My 22 month old golden retriever did not earn unsupervised time out of the crate until he was 11 months old, then only at night, and gradually all the time. 

Because he was in his crate when we couldn't constantly have eyes on him - he never developed destructive behavior. We also knew that we would have to provide him both mental and physical activity. He is a titled dock diving dog, and we're working towards titling him in nosework. Do the titles mean anything to me? Not as much as the joy my dog has doing these activities. And the joy I get from sharing in those moments with him. 

And he gets almost daily visits to the dog park (there's some risk in that, but it's a risk that is worth it for us, because it's really the only off leash area where he can truly run and stretch his legs). We generally have the same core dogs after work and on weekends, because we all seem to consistently show up at the same time. 

Regarding food - Noah is kept very lean and athletic to help in minimizing his chances of getting cancer (65% of golden retrievers dies of either hemangio sarcoma, lymphoma or osteosarcoma). He gets 2 cups of food a day (1 cup 2x a day) of his food. We also supplement with steamed and pulverized vegetables, coconut oil, Grizzly Salmon Oil and one raw egg every other day, some days including the shell, some days not. On particularly athletic days, he gets a little more, on more sedentary days, he gets a little less. It's also why we've decided to keep him intact, because I believe the hormones are also important to their long term health. 

Obese dogs increase their risk of cancer by many times (even slightly obese - what the average pet owner things is healthy weight). Extra weight on a large dog is also a recipe for early onset arthritis too. 

I was going to shamelessly post a picture of my boy, the dog who makes my heart sing and makes me smile and fall in love a little more each day, but I realized my job has blocked photobucket.  :Sad: 

I will conclude with this outsider observation. 

Your room mate is not ready for a dog right now. He's not willing to put in the WORK himself to teach this dog the rules. Dogs thrive on understanding what we want - but throwing them out in the yard teaches them nothing. It take consistency and repetition. 

He's surely not ready for THIS dog, who deserves to have an owner that appreciates his intelligence and loyalty and will put in the time and effort.

As others have already said - this situation is not going to get better - it's only going to get worse. 

If he truly cares about the dog - forget about the AKC registration and papers and the money - Noah is also papered AND titled - and if I ever came to the point I couldn't provide him with the home he deserved (God forbid), I'm not trying to recoup money I put into him. His happiness and well being as a living, breathing, loving animal is my number one motivation to do the right thing, not money. 

I had to do the same thing with my ball python collection - I came to the point that I could no longer provide them the care and attention that they deserved (the only rat wholesaler within 2 hours of me closed up shop - and I was paying full retail to feed 60+ snakes). I could have had a going out of business sale and tried to recoup my investments, but seeing that they went to a home (in this case, two different homes - they were split), that could care for them better than I could was more important to me. One of them is an Old Guard moderator on here. At the point I made the decision, my joy for keeping them had been sucked out of me. $300 a week to feed them will do that to you. 

In any case - I urge you to try to get your room mate to see that right now, this is not the dog for him. Maybe rescue a senior dog instead - one that doesn't demand so much attention at this stage in their life.

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ballpythonluvr (11-02-2016),_GoingPostal_ (11-02-2016),KingWheatley (11-02-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-02-2016),Stewart_Reptiles (11-02-2016)

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## Fraido

Can't say I 100% agree with all dogs needing to be crate trained, depends on the dog. My husky was never crate trained and she was/is as good as gold. It is a good thing to train, but I don't think it's always a necessity.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

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KingWheatley (11-02-2016)

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## Nellasaur

> Can't say I 100% agree with all dogs needing to be crate trained, depends on the dog. My husky was never crate trained and she was/is as good as gold. It is a good thing to train, but I don't think it's always a necessity.


Regardless, in this situation it 100% is necessary.  This poor dog is going to ingest something he shouldn't and die really early if Roommate doesn't get his head out of his _tuchus_ and learn what it means to be a responsible, ethical pet owner.

Unfortunately, given KW's comment about the dog being shoved outside and ignored all day for doing something wrong, I doubt that's going to happen.  I know exactly what kind of owner this dog has, because we see them bringing their undertrained, unsocialized animals into our shelter and dumping them on us all the time-- and more often than not putting them down for major behavioral issues, too.

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_GoingPostal_ (11-03-2016),KingWheatley (11-02-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-02-2016)

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## Fraido

> Regardless, in this situation it 100% is necessary.  This poor dog is going to ingest something he shouldn't and die really early if Roommate doesn't get his head out of his _tuchus_ and learn what it means to be a responsible, ethical pet owner.
> 
> Unfortunately, given KW's comment about the dog being shoved outside and ignored all day for doing something wrong, I doubt that's going to happen.  I know exactly what kind of owner this dog has, because we see them bringing their undertrained, unsocialized animals into our shelter and dumping them on us all the time-- and more often than not putting them down for major behavioral issues, too.


I never said it wasn't. I said it depends on the dog and isn't always 100% necessary, because the person above said they wouldn't even consider a dog if it wasn't crate trained.

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## Nellasaur

> I never said it wasn't. I said it depends on the dog and isn't always 100% necessary, because the person above said they wouldn't even consider a dog if it wasn't crate trained.


Gotcha  :Good Job:

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## KingWheatley

If I didn't have to work as often, I'd have a husky or German shepherd. I'd be working with either of them to teach them show-tricks just for the fun of it.

Would I be successful? Heck if I know. But I think the training alone would be fun for the puppy. Most dogs have such a drive to please their owner. It saddens me when people don't get that.

In this case, though, I'd say it's the equivalent to the horse owners around Lexington.

There are a huge majority of horse owners who own horses and farms just to SAY they own them. They don't do anything with them except have the horses stalled. It's so disturbing to me.

I don't get the culture of owning just for the sake of owning. I relish in the thought of utilizing an animal to its potential. Perhaps only to show it off, yes, but the joy between pet and owner of doing something together seems like such a pleasant way to bond.


Herp Derp

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## KingWheatley

I think my next pet, rather than a dog, if not another reptile, will be a bird. Though a lot more work, and a lot messy...

To be honest... I'm working myself step by step to be a vet through individual animal experience. Eventually I'd like to go to school and get a degree, but I want to have experience with animals first.


Herp Derp

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## rabernet

> I never said it wasn't. I said it depends on the dog and isn't always 100% necessary, because the person above said they wouldn't even consider a dog if it wasn't crate trained.


Let me clarify a bit - Noah wasn't crate trained when we first picked him up - we trained him to the crate. 

For US, we have always crate trained our puppies, and they've "graduated" from the necessity of crating them after they reach a year old, and they've also still chosen to go into their crates on their own (door open) after that. 

And, since we do dog sports, a crate is necessary at many of the events, while you're waiting for your turn - it's a quiet place for them to rest, drink water and cool off (I have a fan blowing directly on him in the summer). 

So I value a dog that has been crate trained, for various reasons.

And just because - a few pictures of my boy.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-02-2016),bubs327 (11-04-2016),_GoingPostal_ (11-03-2016),KingWheatley (11-02-2016),Nellasaur (11-03-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-02-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> Let me clarify a bit - Noah wasn't crate trained when we first picked him up - we trained him to the crate. 
> 
> For US, we have always crate trained our puppies, and they've "graduated" from the necessity of crating them after they reach a year old, and they've also still chosen to go into their crates on their own (door open) after that. 
> 
> And, since we do dog sports, a crate is necessary at many of the events, while you're waiting for your turn - it's a quiet place for them to rest, drink water and cool off (I have a fan blowing directly on him in the summer). 
> 
> So I value a dog that has been crate trained, for various reasons.
> 
> And just because - a few pictures of my boy.


Such fab...


Herp Derp

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-02-2016)

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## KingWheatley

My roommate and I hit an understanding.

Being Mexican, part of their culture growing up is learning from their own mistakes. If they want to touch the stove top so bad, the parents let them, so they can learn. At least this is what my roommate told me.

So I explained to him that to some extent, dogs are like children, yes, but with severe short term memory loss. We had watched Finding Nemo + Dory (I love those movies) and I told him to picture the puppy like he is Dory. Extremely high energy, very excitable, eager to please, and in seconds will forget whatever it was that was happening before.

So let's say the dog chews a remote and poops on the floor at the same time. A noise happens that distracts him. He checks it out. Owner is coming home. All come back to the crime scene. "Whoa! Who did this!??" *sniff* "Oh... oh that's my poo. I did this... why did I do that?" *sad puppy*


Herp Derp

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## Fraido

> Let me clarify a bit - Noah wasn't crate trained when we first picked him up - we trained him to the crate. 
> 
> For US, we have always crate trained our puppies, and they've "graduated" from the necessity of crating them after they reach a year old, and they've also still chosen to go into their crates on their own (door open) after that. 
> 
> And, since we do dog sports, a crate is necessary at many of the events, while you're waiting for your turn - it's a quiet place for them to rest, drink water and cool off (I have a fan blowing directly on him in the summer). 
> 
> So I value a dog that has been crate trained, for various reasons.
> 
> And just because - a few pictures of my boy.


I'm just saying in general it is not ALWAYS necessary for everyone.

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## rabernet

> I'm just saying in general it is not ALWAYS necessary for everyone.


I'll give you that, but it's the rare puppy that's been perfect from the very start. In most cases, I believe a crate (or X-Pen) is an important tool in raising a well balanced dog.

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## Nellasaur

> So let's say the dog chews a remote and poops on the floor at the same time. A noise happens that distracts him. He checks it out. Owner is coming home. All come back to the crime scene. "Whoa! Who did this!??" *sniff* "Oh... oh that's my poo. I did this... why did I do that?" *sad puppy*


Honestly, KW, even that's still not quite right, and the only reason I'm still harping on this is because getting it right is a big part of effective training and behavior mod with dogs.  The pupper isn't thinking _"I did this... why did I do that?" *sad puppy*_; that still implies a certain amount of associative thinking that most dogs just don't have.  What the pup is thinking in this situation is "Oh that's my poo.  And my people are angry and yelling.  What's in the room-- poo?  Poo makes my people angry, so I must never poo around them again.  *sad, anxious puppy*" He's not associating the ACT of defecating with the response, he's associating the very presence of the stool with the owner's angry response.  Or, alternatively, he won't be able to consistently associate ANYTHING with the owner being angry or upset, and then learns that his owner's moods are capricious and unpredictable and that he should always be afraid around his owner.

Again, that's why it's super super important to avoid showing anger and upset _after the fact_ when destruction or accidents are found.  The only thing that could possibly do is teach the dog to be afraid of either random items or locations in the home, or of the owners.

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_GoingPostal_ (11-03-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (11-03-2016),rabernet (11-03-2016),_voodoolamb_ (11-03-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> Honestly, KW, even that's still not quite right, and the only reason I'm still harping on this is because getting it right is a big part of effective training and behavior mod with dogs.  The pupper isn't thinking _"I did this... why did I do that?" *sad puppy*_; that still implies a certain amount of associative thinking that most dogs just don't have.  What the pup is thinking in this situation is "Oh that's my poo.  And my people are angry and yelling.  What's in the room-- poo?  Poo makes my people angry, so I must never poo around them again.  *sad, anxious puppy*" He's not associating the ACT of defecating with the response, he's associating the very presence of the stool with the owner's angry response.  Or, alternatively, he won't be able to consistently associate ANYTHING with the owner being angry or upset, and then learns that his owner's moods are capricious and unpredictable and that he should always be afraid around his owner.
> 
> Again, that's why it's super super important to avoid showing anger and upset _after the fact_ when destruction or accidents are found.  The only thing that could possibly do is teach the dog to be afraid of either random items or locations in the home, or of the owners.


I caught myself thinking "you literally repeated what I said but worded it different."

I think now it's either semantics or I'm just stupid...

I'll go with the latter.


Herp Derp

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## KingWheatley

My roommate is taking him out on runs now  :Smile:  he hasn't chewed anything up for a couple days.  :Good Job: 


Herp Derp

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## Fraido

> I'll give you that, but it's the rare puppy that's been perfect from the very start. In most cases, I believe a crate (or X-Pen) is an important tool in raising a well balanced dog.


Totally, I don't disagree that it's a very important tool in most cases. I was in highschool when we got my puppy, but we had gotten her during the summer break, so I was home all the time and we took mostly the puppy-proofing. So that made things a lot easier I think. Life is a lot easier with crate training, no doubt.

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## KingWheatley

Update:

Roommate followed advice for a couple days, then apparently just stopped.

I got home from work and puppy was fine. I had to stop him from chewing up the linoleum... Sent my roommate a text saying he needs to get a cage to stop him from eating the linoleum because I couldn't imagine the chemicals in the glue to be good for the dog.

Left for work that night and I get a phone call from my roommate. The puppy is very sick. Puking up water. He wanted me to take care of him since he was taking a plane 5 hours later and it was the middle of the night. I told him that he needed to go to the Vet as it could be anything from a severe cold to him eating something he shouldn't have.

(I read online that some people mistake a dog coughing to be puking.)

When I got back home in the morning, the dog was standing in a puddle of mucus water in the laundry room (his room) and my roommate's mom was coming to take him to the vet.

Tomorrow he will be going in for XRays. The Vet is sure he ate a sock, apparently? I really think it's the linoleum.

I told my roommate that if the dog survives the ordeal that he needs to put serious consideration into finding a new home, as the person who wanted the dog in the first place hasn't done her part in taking care of him, and is moving in with her boyfriend without the puppy, and roommate can't put his social life on hold to take responsibility to take care of the dog...


Herp Derp

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