# Site General > General Herp > Herp Broadcast >  Animal Planet Investigates PETLAND

## BuckeyeBalls

Airs May 17.

Caught the end of it not to sure if its "herp" related or what  :Surprised: 

Wouldn't mind seeing what goes on there  :Smile:

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## WingedWolfPsion

I don't trust Animal Planet any longer, and their programming has not been improving, so I am still boycotting them.

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_GregBennett_ (05-11-2010),_Michelle.C_ (05-04-2010),Zach (05-04-2010)

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## Vypyrz

Sounds more like HSUS or PETA at work...

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_GregBennett_ (05-11-2010)

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## Christine

> I don't trust Animal Planet any longer, and their programming has not been improving, so I am still boycotting them.


Me too!

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## MarkS

The Animal Rights network is picking on a petstore?  This can not be good. No matter how you may feel about petland, at least they're in favor of keeping pets instead of 'freeing all animal slaves'

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## Quiet Tempest

> the animal rights network is picking on a petstore?  This can not be good. No matter how you may feel about petland, at least they're in favor of keeping pets instead of 'freeing all animal slaves'


+1

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## musicalKeyes

I don't know, it could be about their dogs. I have two dogs from a petland (both accidents, and they need homes too, shelter people! you wouldn't believe the comments I get  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) who are absolutely wonderful dogs, but I know for sure at least one came from a puppy mill after doing the research after we got her.

I can tell you, though, the one closest to me really pissed me off lately. I brought a garter back with a huge mouth injury, and the next day it was back out for sale.  :Mad:  Their reptile care is really just as bad as the other pet store's around here.

I do like the fact that many of their smaller animals are found locally, but I don't think they should be selling dogs unless they start getting them from reliable breeders.

So, as much as I'm disliking Animal Planet at the moment, we'll see. I'll probably watch it just to see what it talks about.

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## BuckeyeBalls

Ok just seen the thing. Its about petland buying unhealthy dogs from puppy mills.

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## Denial

who would buy a puppy from petland? The petland here went out of business a few months ago but there puppys were insanely priced. I was charging 200-350 for my akc registered siberian pups they were charging 700. I saw a beagle in there once for 500

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## BuckeyeBalls

> who would buy a puppy from petland? The petland here went out of business a few months ago but there puppys were insanely priced. I was charging 200-350 for my akc registered siberian pups they were charging 700. I saw a beagle in there once for 500


People who "trust" petland for their "knowledge"

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## PYMOM

I havent seen a petland around where i live...in years. It was in the mall but it closed. Everything was overpriced, not just the dogs..I will stick with Petsmart and Petco

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## musicalKeyes

> People who "trust" petland for their "knowledge"


Well, I absolutely don't trust Petland for anything. The first time, we went in for hamster food, and the second, dog food for the first. I've always had intentions of getting a shelter dog, and absolutely will at some point, but sometimes things just don't work out that way. Abby, the second, is the best animal I've had hands down, and she's the one I know came from a mill. It's the same as "rescuing" a snake from one of these places. Months and a few thousand dollars later, she was perfectly healthy, and we knew exactly what we were getting into/.

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## BuckeyeBalls

I agree

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## sg1trogdor

> who would buy a puppy from petland? The petland here went out of business a few months ago but there puppys were insanely priced. I was charging 200-350 for my akc registered siberian pups they were charging 700. I saw a beagle in there once for 500


Those prices sound cheap compared to out here.  Anything with papers will cost you a fortune unless you go to someone in the paper with puppies.

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## dragonfiregeckos

> Sounds more like HSUS or PETA at work...


*No this is not Herp related... It is an undercover investigation by the HSUS not peta who different group... The main reason for this is to get to the bottom of the Puppy Mill lies and betrayal that petland store oh so greatly do... It has nothing to do with birds, reptiles, fish or anything just the topic that petland makes customers believe that the puppies come from local breeders, and are healthy when infact they come from puppy mills and are transported by u-hauls all over the US and sold the the petland stores... As a former petland employee this a major deal and it is not the stores are being picked on, but it is to stop the support of puppy mills which myself as a SPCA officer & HSUS volunteer knows will be a never ending case... The more we do to help stop this problem the better the outcome is for the animals...

Petland is only out to make money, and could careless about the animals they hurt or the people they hurt... it is sad i am a former Petland employee so no i think Petland is getting what they deserve... I lost my own puppies to the not knowing that we had pups die from the Parvo Virus and well it is down right wrong to still sell puppies when there was some that died from it knowing the others have came into contact with it... I was never dishonest with my customers when i worked there as i would redirect them to the local shelters and rescues to get dogs and some i knew really well i would tell em exactly what was going on in the store after i found out about the parvo infestation and seeing the brokers hauling the puppies in box trucks like u-hauls and ryder trucks in the dead heat of summer and the freezing temps of winter...*

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## aalomon

Your an HSUS volunteer?  :Spider:

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## dragonfiregeckos

> Your an HSUS volunteer?


I am not associateed with the reptile ban or hr669... i am an animal cruelty case volunteer... I am one of the volunteers when it comes to seizing dogs, cates, livestock, and animals of that nature from cruelty cases... I supprt the reptile industry 100% but am against animal cruelty and neglect... I volunteered when we had a huge puppy mill bust here in WV a couple years ago when we seized almost 1,000 dogs from the property of a lady who was running an illegal kennel... this is the video of the rescue...  so please dont think im one of the people trying to get HR669 and the reptile ban passed... i am against it and it would defet the whole purpose of me going to college for Herpetology & Animal Husbandry...

YouTube - Raw Video: 1,000 Dogs Rescued From W.Va. Kennel

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## Crazy4Herps

I disagree with the HSUS on several topics, and I think all of Animal Planets new shows are dumb, but the more organizations involved with the puppy mill problem the better! However unknowledgable and biased they may be when it comes to snake keepers, I'm willing to side with any organization fighting puppy mills. People who run puppy mills are criminals. The HSUS isn't perfect, but they're not half as worthless as PETA, and they're not criminals. We may disagree with them on some points, but as dragonfiregeckos said, they've done a number of good things. We should try to be more open minded on this. As much as we love reptiles, they aren't the only important animals out there.

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dragonfiregeckos (05-07-2010)

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## dragonfiregeckos

> However unknowledgable and biased they may be when it comes to snake keepers, I'm willing to side with any organization fighting puppy mills. People who run puppy mills are criminals. The HSUS isn't perfect, but they're not half as worthless as PETA, and they're not criminals. We may disagree with them on some points, but as dragonfiregeckos said, they've done a number of good things. We should try to be more open minded on this. As much as we love reptiles, they aren't the only important animals out there.


Thanks,

  You would be surprised how many HSUS volunteers and workers keep reptiles... The HR669 has been going on for several years and has yet to be passed so IMHO it will more than likely not be passed or acted upon..

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## wolfy-hound

HSUS is engaging in borderline criminal behavior.  Sorry, but it's the truth.  In some cases, it's outright criminal behavior.

I'm all for shutting down anyone who is abusing/neglecting their animals, whether they have one or two hundred.  I'm NOT in favor of shutting down a person who happens to breed dogs for a living, or seizing the animals from someone just because they have XX dogs.  HSUS has done both.  They are also very fond of swooping in and seizing dogs, holding them for the photo ops, then dumping them onto the local rescues and pounds and rushing off to collect a bunch of donations to help support "all our work in helping these poor poor animals!".  In the meantime, the local rescues have a ton of animals with little to no support finiancially.

The very fact that HSUS is pushing to get the bans passed tells me the organization is in favor of outlawing pets.

I'm not directing any of this at YOU as a volunteer in helping in cruelty cases.  Just wanted to put my opinon on the topics in.  I'm glad that neglected and abused dogs have people like you to help them in their time of need.  I've helped my fair share of neglected dogs, fostered a bunch, all on my own dime.  It's a hard thing to do.

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## dragonfiregeckos

> HSUS is engaging in borderline criminal behavior.  Sorry, but it's the truth.  In some cases, it's outright criminal behavior.
> 
> I'm all for shutting down anyone who is abusing/neglecting their animals, whether they have one or two hundred.  I'm NOT in favor of shutting down a person who happens to breed dogs for a living, or seizing the animals from someone just because they have XX dogs.  HSUS has done both.  They are also very fond of swooping in and seizing dogs, holding them for the photo ops, then dumping them onto the local rescues and pounds and rushing off to collect a bunch of donations to help support "all our work in helping these poor poor animals!".  In the meantime, the local rescues have a ton of animals with little to no support finiancially.
> 
> The very fact that HSUS is pushing to get the bans passed tells me the organization is in favor of outlawing pets.


Actually this lady who had the puppy mill kept them in rabbit cages, and some dogs has bad sores on thier feet. the mother dog to my lil one i have from there had to have a leg amputated cuz it had infection so bad that it was on the verge of gangreen... I do have to beg the differ... myself and the other rescues stepped foward to take the dogs in... there are limited shelters here in west virginia and half of them refused to accept any of the dogs... There was complaints about the ammonia and fecal smells as that was not a lightly populated area and you could smell the ammonia before ever seeing the place... some of the cages i emptied had no water bowls, no food, and was nasty... they only caught the some better looking cages on film as the others were not so viewer friendly... we had one female who had a litter of pups and all 6 puppies were dead and had been in the cage for a few days.. But i aint trying to start anything on here but people misjudge orgs sometimes... the hsus rescuers are no different than the people on animal cops...

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## Jay_Bunny

> HSUS is engaging in borderline criminal behavior.  Sorry, but it's the truth.  In some cases, it's outright criminal behavior.
> 
> I'm all for shutting down anyone who is abusing/neglecting their animals, whether they have one or two hundred.  I'm NOT in favor of shutting down a person who happens to breed dogs for a living, or seizing the animals from someone just because they have XX dogs.  HSUS has done both.  They are also very fond of swooping in and seizing dogs, holding them for the photo ops, then dumping them onto the local rescues and pounds and rushing off to collect a bunch of donations to help support "all our work in helping these poor poor animals!".  In the meantime, the local rescues have a ton of animals with little to no support finiancially.
> 
> The very fact that HSUS is pushing to get the bans passed tells me the organization is in favor of outlawing pets.
> 
> I'm not directing any of this at YOU as a volunteer in helping in cruelty cases.  Just wanted to put my opinon on the topics in.  I'm glad that neglected and abused dogs have people like you to help them in their time of need.  I've helped my fair share of neglected dogs, fostered a bunch, all on my own dime.  It's a hard thing to do.


Often times though, people that have their dogs taken away because they have X number of dogs are usually people that are breaking local laws. I know that here where I live you have to get a kennel license and all sorts of things and even then I think you are limited to how many dogs you can have. If you go over that number, you are technically breaking the law.

I may not agree with it, but the law is the law. Now that is not the case every time. I'm sure there are some breeders and people who keep dogs and take very good care of them.

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## wolfy-hound

Of course there are bad ones.  Just like there's bad people who keep snakes and starve them or let them die of cold because they won't heat them in winter, or just don't care.

That wouldn't make it right for HSUS to come barging into one of our houses and confiscate all our snakes just because we have over say.. 20 snakes.

If someone is breaking the law, obviously they are to be held accountable.  If it's over the limit of dogs, or neglecting them, or fighting them.. then the law is perfectly in line to come in and make things right.

HSUS has gone into places and screwed the people over royally in order to grab a few headlines and funds.  Maybe not every time, but they've done it before, and god knows they'll do it again.  They've seized animals from a place while admitting in print that 'the dogs were not in bad shape', and it ended up being a illegal seizure, and they STILL dumped all the animals on local shelters without offering any of their 100 million dollars to support their care.

HSUS is a private organization who tries to act like they have full authority of the police.  I'll never support them.  I'll support my local rescue or shelter when they have to deal with the fallout, but NEVER HSUS.

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## Ginevive

> Of course there are bad ones.  Just like there's bad people who keep snakes and starve them or let them die of cold because they won't heat them in winter, or just don't care.
> 
> That wouldn't make it right for HSUS to come barging into one of our houses and confiscate all our snakes just because we have over say.. 20 snakes.
> 
> If someone is breaking the law, obviously they are to be held accountable.  If it's over the limit of dogs, or neglecting them, or fighting them.. then the law is perfectly in line to come in and make things right.
> 
> HSUS has gone into places and screwed the people over royally in order to grab a few headlines and funds.  Maybe not every time, but they've done it before, and god knows they'll do it again.  They've seized animals from a place while admitting in print that 'the dogs were not in bad shape', and it ended up being a illegal seizure, and they STILL dumped all the animals on local shelters without offering any of their 100 million dollars to support their care.
> 
> HSUS is a private organization who tries to act like they have full authority of the police.  I'll never support them.  I'll support my local rescue or shelter when they have to deal with the fallout, but NEVER HSUS.



So true. 

I have only ever been to one Petland. But that store was clean, with healthy animals, and no dogs/cats for sale. I had no problem with it. 

Many people are so upset about chain stores, just because they are chain stores. I have seen very bad private mom n' pop stores just as well.

And the HSUS.. you said it Wolfy.

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## wolfy-hound

Oh yes!! The "mom and pop" store local to me is horrid when it comes to the puppies.. but their reptiles and fish are actually set up well.  And they DO get most(I can't confirm ALL of the pups origins) of the puppies from local breeders, they just mark the price up to make a profit.  But the pups are always not groomed, with matted fur and such.  I haven't heard anyone say the puppies were sick there, and trust me, around here they'd gripe loudly.  

The Petland I do remember being local(no idea if it's still there, I moved from that city) was always very clean, the animals were always clean and healthy looking, including the puppies, which the staff took to a small room to play with a few times a day so they didn't stay in kennels all the time.  They had a display play area set up with tons of shredded paper to play in, and it was over-all a good looking store(with typically high petstore prices on everything).

I don't know where that particular Petland got their pups, but they were healthy good looking pups.  This was a few(cough several cough) years ago, and it might have been only one store, but it was a good petstore.

Just goes to show you, not all chains are bad, not all small independants are good.  Not all large scale breeders are "puppy mills" and not all small breeders care for their dogs.  It's better to prosecute those that are breaking laws and abusing the animals, rather than making labels of "puppy mill" or "stock breeder" and accusing ALL of them of being abusive neglectful evil people.

There used to be tons of breeders that owned large scale places.  HAving a 100 dachunds or 200 german shepards wasn't unheard of.  Kept in proper space, cleaned and fed and watered... there's nothing wrong with a place that keeps a lot of animals.  If someone has ONE dog chained in the backyard starving, hit THEM.  If they have 100 dogs all clean and well cared for, leave them alone.  

Labeling people with terms like "puppy mill" is ridiculous.  What definition is puppy mill referring to? A place that makes money by breeding dogs? Or a place that neglects dogs?  Any place with over XX dogs?  A lot of people want to say things like "Oh, a puppy mill is a place where they breed dogs for profit without caring for the dogs!" but then you'll see places labeled a puppy mill because they breed dogs as a business, whether or not they care for the dogs properly... while "no kill" shelters are touted as wonderful places, even if they are full of dogs that should be humanely euthanized so they won't be suffering from chronic painful ailments or locked into a kennel for years due to un-resolvable behavioral problems.

Similiar to people who shout "It's the Deed, not the Breed" about not blaming all pit bulls for the actions of a few, don't try to villify all dog breeders just because they breed dogs.

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MarkS (05-09-2010)

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## Shyshoos

> So true. 
> 
> I have only ever been to one Petland. But that store was clean, with healthy animals, and no dogs/cats for sale. I had no problem with it. 
> 
> Many people are so upset about chain stores, just because they are chain stores. I have seen very bad private mom n' pop stores just as well.
> 
> And the HSUS.. you said it Wolfy.


Not all Petland stores sell puppies, let alone kittens, but I've been to many that do. The local Petland here won't even tell you who you get your puppy from until you initiate a purchase (I say purchase, not adoption). Legally they have to tell you who they supply the puppies from, but when I just asked who the puppies were bought from they told me 'that's confidential information' and were very abrupt with me. As if I was trying to investigate them myself. I was simply a customer but they treated me as if I was suspecting something.

THAT is suspicious enough. Customer's have every right to know where their puppies are being purchased, and it's perfectly okay if they are buying from reputable breeders.

However I do not even agree with pet stores buying from breeders. That should be the breeders job alone, while pet stores may supply all your pet needs and support humane society's and shelters with what they already need adopted. Breeders don't need the help, so why do some franchise pet stores supply puppies? Because they're not looking out for animals interest, they're looking out for themselves.

I haven't been to -every- Petland, Petco, and Petsmart in the world, but I've lived all over the united states and I've seen plenty of Petland's who sell pure bred puppies, and I've seen plenty of Petsmart stores who sell kittens from shelters. I've worked at a humane society and Petco let us set up a station in their store to help adopt out kittens and puppies. So Petland in my opinion is sketchy.

HSUS may not always do everything right, they may not do what everyone wants them to do the way they want them to do it, but there isn't a lot of organization out there that help animals. They help a lot more than they DO NOT.

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## BPelizabeth

> HSUS may not always do everything right, they may not do what everyone wants them to do the way they want them to do it, but there isn't a lot of organization out there that help animals. They help a lot more than they DO NOT.


I tend to disagree with this statement as it has been proven already that little to NO money that they make goes to any of their local shelters.  Most goes to lobbiests and commercials and to pay their corp. heads.  Pretty sad when you think you are sending in money to help animals ....what you are really doing is funding the laws they are trying to get passed.

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## Shyshoos

> Just goes to show you, not all chains are bad, not all small independants are good.  Not all large scale breeders are "puppy mills" and not all small breeders care for their dogs.  It's better to prosecute those that are breaking laws and abusing the animals, rather than making labels of "puppy mill" or "stock breeder" and accusing ALL of them of being abusive neglectful evil people.
> 
> There used to be tons of breeders that owned large scale places.  HAving a 100 dachunds or 200 german shepards wasn't unheard of.  Kept in proper space, cleaned and fed and watered... there's nothing wrong with a place that keeps a lot of animals.  If someone has ONE dog chained in the backyard starving, hit THEM.  If they have 100 dogs all clean and well cared for, leave them alone.  
> 
> Labeling people with terms like "puppy mill" is ridiculous.  What definition is puppy mill referring to? A place that makes money by breeding dogs? Or a place that neglects dogs?  Any place with over XX dogs?  A lot of people want to say things like "Oh, a puppy mill is a place where they breed dogs for profit without caring for the dogs!" but then you'll see places labeled a puppy mill because they breed dogs as a business, whether or not they care for the dogs properly... while "no kill" shelters are touted as wonderful places, even if they are full of dogs that should be humanely euthanized so they won't be suffering from chronic painful ailments or locked into a kennel for years due to un-resolvable behavioral problems.


The reason why Petland is being spotlighted and not these 'mom and pop stores' is because it doesn't take much work to shut down a mom and pop store for neglecting animals. It just takes a rally of people to stand out front and expose them, and likely their business will go down the drain.

Petland however is a huge company who, even if rallied against, won't take my damage from a meager protest outside of ONE of their stores all over the united states. So they are being put into the national spotlight so everyone can see what they have been suspected of. There will be live footage and proof, for the animals sake.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the 100 dogs who are healthy with one starved and chained dog in a background statement. Did this happen? That's sad if it did.

A puppy mill is a place where puppies are mass produced, females and males are used just for breeding, and neither adult females, males, and puppies are given any human socialization and ethical treatment. They are generally kept in crates either made of wire or wood, they are given water and food as they need it (sometimes through automatic feeders so the breeders don't even need to interact with them), and it's not uncommon that they are kept to play and sleep in their own feces. Veterinarian care is little to none. This is a puppy mill. And yes, they are usually housing TONS of puppies. And when an adult dog who's being used to breed cannot breed anymore, it is sent to a humane society/shelter/or pound.

No kill shelters are by far a lot better places than puppy mills. You really need to get your facts straight. Shelters have people who take care of the animals in all aspects: cleaning, playing, walking them. Some cannot afford extensive veterinarian care, but most will offer what they can (some a lot more than others, some at a minimum, but they a good shelter will not sell you an animal they know has a disease, like heart worms, without at least informing the person wanting to adopt). It sounds like you're also refering to a pound, not a humane society or shelter. But shelters and humane society's aren't owned by a corporation, so they are all run differently. But if you were to walk into a humane society, and then walk into a puppy mill, you wouldn't be making those claims that there is basically no difference or that a humane society is hardly any better.

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## BuckeyeBalls

> I tend to disagree with this statement as it has been proven already that little to NO money that they make goes to any of their local shelters.  Most goes to lobbiests and commercials and to pay their corp. heads.  Pretty sad when you think you are sending in money to help animals ....what you are really doing is funding the laws they are trying to get passed.


x2

None of it helps the animals. Well take that back VERY LITTLE helps the animals

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## Shyshoos

> I tend to disagree with this statement as it has been proven already that little to NO money that they make goes to any of their local shelters.  Most goes to lobbiests and commercials and to pay their corp. heads.  Pretty sad when you think you are sending in money to help animals ....what you are really doing is funding the laws they are trying to get passed.


Like I said, they may not do everything right, and I agree their financial spending is wacky.

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## wolfy-hound

Sorry, I've personally seen no-kill shelters I wouldn't give a dead hamster to.  They warehouse animals in substandard facilities in packs.  Weaker dogs were killed when the pack turned on them.  Dogs were fed by throwing in large amounts of food in one or two places, so that the strong ate, and the weak got weaker.
I've also seen a place that bred dogs commercially(mostly dachunds) and they had well over 100 dogs.  The kennels were well made, the dogs were clean and healthy.  The puppies were fat healthy animals that would make good pets for people.

But by most people's standards, they would STILL be labeled a puppy mill.  Never mind that the dogs are healthy.  Instead of focusing on labeling breeders, why don't you focus on enforcing laws that already exist for humane care for the dogs? I.E. appropriate shelter, vet care, food and water.

I've seen pet stores that take kittens in, then sell them.  I don't mind it, as long as the kittens are vetted and healthy.  If you want a kitten for free in front of the supermarket, go get it.. then spend the $200 at the vet for all the stuff a kitten needs and hope that it's not sick already.  Get a well vetted kitten from a reputable sho, shelter, or pound.. and you usually pay $60 and you get a kitten already checked by a vet.  The shop that sells the kittens for $60 that has vetted the kittens doesn't make a ton on the kitten, anymore than they make a ton on the puppies they sell.  They make their money on the accessories.  The puppies and kittens draw in customers.

IF the shop is taking proper care of the animals, there should be no onus on them for selling puppies and kittens.  They should also be making certain that their suppliers are treating their dogs, cats and the puppies and kittens properly as well, i.e. clean, fed, watered, sheltered.

Too many times people just automatically label ALL breeders as bad, either they are "backyard-breeders" or "puppy mills".  Pick one, the only difference is number of animals.  No one waits to see if they are caring for the animals properly, it's still a "bad thing" just because they breed.

HSUS only wants to outlaw all animal ownership INCLUDING owning dogs or cats as pets.  They've already stated as such in some of their literature, and that's their goal.  They'll just do it in a sneaky way so it'll get past all the blind doners who think "Ooo, a picture of a puppy, they must be good!" and hand over their money, and then blindly believe whatever they're told, because the HSUS says "humane" in it.. they must be right.

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## catawhat75

I hope that for once, AP does a good job on this show. The world really needs it's eyes opened up to places such as Petland and other stores that buy from the mills. After many years of protesting against our local Petland, they finally closed (maybe because they finally sold to many puppies who died shortly after being sold). And yes, I know people who have had that happen, not just hearsay. 
Too easy to get on my soapbox about puppy mills and backyard breeders so I will now step away from this thread...

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## Shyshoos

> Sorry, I've personally seen no-kill shelters I wouldn't give a dead hamster to.  They warehouse animals in substandard facilities in packs.  Weaker dogs were killed when the pack turned on them.  Dogs were fed by throwing in large amounts of food in one or two places, so that the strong ate, and the weak got weaker.
> I've also seen a place that bred dogs commercially(mostly dachunds) and they had well over 100 dogs.  The kennels were well made, the dogs were clean and healthy.  The puppies were fat healthy animals that would make good pets for people.


This is a description of a good breeder, not a puppy mill. (And the description of a severely illegal "shelter". Are you sure it wasn't a pound? I've seen pounds like that--one dog had his tooth hanging from his gums...) I was describing a puppy mill, and that's what you'll see on the Petland investigation. I have no problem with reputable breeders, as you described, no matter how many animals they have, as long as each and every one of them is loved and well cared for.




> But by most people's standards, they would STILL be labeled a puppy mill.  Never mind that the dogs are healthy.  Instead of focusing on labeling breeders, why don't you focus on enforcing laws that already exist for humane care for the dogs? I.E. appropriate shelter, vet care, food and water.


It's sadly true.




> The puppies and kittens draw in customers.
> 
> IF the shop is taking proper care of the animals, there should be no onus on them for selling puppies and kittens.  They should also be making certain that their suppliers are treating their dogs, cats and the puppies and kittens properly as well, i.e. clean, fed, watered, sheltered.


I still condone pet stores that supply breeder's puppies. There are humane society's and shelters that have *thousands* upon *thousands* of animals brought in every *single* year and if a pet store chooses a breeder's puppies over helping the homeless ones, then I just see a money-greedy company that isn't doing any good for the lives of dogs. Dog breeders = breed dogs and sell them. Pet stores = "we care for animals" =/= buy from breeders instead of taking homeless ones off of the shelter's and humane society's. I love pure bred dogs, and I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, and I'm NOT saying it's wrong to choose to buy a pure bred over a humane society or shelter puppy (it's a nice act though!). What I'm saying is dog breeder's should do the pure bred selling while pet stores who want to sell puppies should help out their local shelters. If the pet store doesn't have a local shelter, if it knows who it's buying it's puppies from and it's not a dumpy puppy farm, then okay; have at.

We have a small local pet store right down the street, and it's the epitome of animal love. They have a list that you can put your name on, and how many kittens you have, and as they sell what they currently have in the store, you can bring in the unexpected litter. They also do this for puppies. They don't over-price them--they sell them for about $20--and because of that they aren't neutered or spayed. They are given their first round of shots though and very, very well taken care of.




> HSUS only wants to outlaw all animal ownership INCLUDING owning dogs or cats as pets.  They've already stated as such in some of their literature, and that's their goal.  They'll just do it in a sneaky way so it'll get past all the blind doners who think "Ooo, a picture of a puppy, they must be good!" and hand over their money, and then blindly believe whatever they're told, because the HSUS says "humane" in it.. they must be right.


And just like when we see an adorable puppy in a pet store and do no research, we may be buying from a puppy mill. But it's true, people don't do a lot of thinking when there's a pretty puppy or kitten staring them in the face.

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## wolfy-hound

Sorry. Pet store is a business.. not a shelter.  They are entirely entitled to sell pets, including purebreds if they like.  
Why not say the shelters should do their job of finding homes for all their animals.. and the pet stores can sell the purebred pups?  Why do you automatically think "pounds" are all bad? The pound up the road from me has been pretty darned good at rehoming animals and keeping everything clean.  

I'm not saying bad places don't exist.  I'm saying stop relying on those labels to say "wrong" and "right".

It's not the pet stores fault that people buy/adopt pups or dogs and then give them up to shelters.  It's not the breeder's fault that someone buys a dog then decides later they want a new one and they "dump" it into a local shelter.  No matter how much you try to research the new owner, sometimes they fool you, or sometimes they plain change their mind, or the economy makes them need to give up their pet.

It's akin to saying that all big breeders of snakes are evil mills and they should only sell direct to buyers and never supply pet stores with well-bred snakes.  There's rescues with thousands of snakes needing homes.

People who WANT a dog, snake, cat, kitten, etc can CHOOSE to adopt from a rescuer, pay for one from a shelter or pound, or buy from a breeder, or buy from a pet store.  Those people are then responsible for their pet.  They are supposed to care for it.  I'm all for encouraging people to adopt homeless pets from the shelter, but I won't tell someone they are wrong for wanting to buy a purebred puppy.  I WILL encourage them to make sure of where that puppy is from, whether it's checking out the breeder or checking to see where the store gets puppies from.

One tactic I see locally is that large breeders 'farm' out the puppies to people so that it appears that the person 'selling' the pups only breeds a couple litters.  They send pups to the flea markets with a person.. again, so it looks like it's just a person with a couple dogs.  That encourages folks to buy pups, and they will never know that the pups came from a large commercial operation, sometimes with very inhumane conditions.

The way to stop inhumane treatment of animals is use the existing laws to punish people who don't give humane care to their dogs.  Don't worry about how many dogs, or whether they sell the dogs, or "adopt" the dogs, or keep them forever as a no-kill shelter.  Worry instead about whether the dogs are being given proper shelter, food, water and vet care.  

Labels like "pound", "shelter", "no-kill", "petstore", or "puppy mill" don't tell you whether the animals are cared for properly or not.

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## catawhat75

Entitled to sell pets, right and wrong... How about morality and ethics? Not that those two things matter much anymore. 
Wolfy, would you support a mass BP breeder who kept them in horrendous conditions and ONLY cared about selling the babies and making money. I truly thought that with you working in a pet related field would be a bit more educated when it came to how stores like Petland operate. 
Yes, it would be great if people were responsible enough to research before they buy that cute puppy in the window. But that's what those stores rely upon, the IMPULSE buy. 

Nothing wrong at all with purebred animals, nothing wrong with responsible breeders- lots wrong with mass/mill breeders.

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## wolfy-hound

If you read what I wrote.. I said anyone who is neglecting the animals should be charged with neglect.. but I believe it's whether it's a small breeder or a large breeder.

If the big breeder of snakes is neglecting the snakes and keeping them inhumanely, I'm against it.

If any supplier of puppies(large or small) is not meeting the proper requirements for the dogs, they should be prosecuted.  I'm against labeling places as "good" or "bad" strictly on that whole label of "large scale breeder" or "pound" or "no-kill" or "backyard breeder".

The repeated comments that "are you sure it wasn't a pound?" is a perfect example.  All pounds are not bad, all large scale breeders are not bad, all small scale breeders are not bad.  Trying to say that someone is abusing animals just because they fit a label is wrong.

Am I a python mill because I have 35 pythons?  Am I bad because I sell the babies instead of adopting them out for free or nearly free?  But pet stores are bad becuase they sell puppies, rather than adopting out puppies.

I have no doubt that some Petlands bought puppies out of horrible places for resale.  I also know that not ALL Petlands bought puppies from horrible places, not all corporate pet stores buy from horrible places, and not all large scale breeders are horrible places.

I do happen to know how petstores operate.  I also see a lot of labeling.  People are quick to jump on the bandwagon of "outlaw puppy mills" but they don't think about the definitions of "puppy mill".  Why should anyone NEED a legal label of "puppy mill" when they have laws regarding the care of dogs?  Instead of passing a new law without properly defining what you're outlawing, why not ENFORCE the existing laws that state you MUST provide proper housing, food, water and vet care for the dogs you own?

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## PurplePython

Petland is pathetic in my area. All of the reptiles are treated like trash and the dogs are in 4 x 4 foot cages like they are items and not animals.

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## Shyshoos

> If any supplier of puppies(large or small) is not meeting the proper requirements for the dogs, they should be prosecuted.  I'm against labeling places as "good" or "bad" strictly on that whole label of "large scale breeder" or "pound" or "no-kill" or "backyard breeder".
> 
> The repeated comments that "are you sure it wasn't a pound?" is a perfect example.  All pounds are not bad, all large scale breeders are not bad, all small scale breeders are not bad.  Trying to say that someone is abusing animals just because they fit a label is wrong.
> 
> Am I a python mill because I have 35 pythons?  Am I bad because I sell the babies instead of adopting them out for free or nearly free?  But pet stores are bad becuase they sell puppies, rather than adopting out puppies.


Okay, I CLEARLY described what best fits a "puppy mill" facility. Pretty much a down right filthy and unfit "living" environment. As much as anyone hates a label, it makes it very easy for people to have a stand on things. To say "I am against people who farm puppies in dirty homes and give them hardly any attention and veterinarian care" can easily be translated into "puppy mill".

As much as you hate a label being put on things, they will always exist because there will always be some terrible person who will breed animals in terrible conditions. So, society will continue to label these places as "puppy mills" because it's the most fitting title of the definition. Sadly some breeders are scrutinized for having a lot of animals who ARE well taken care of, and they are just idiots, so they should be dismissed.

Now a breeder who may house 35 dogs, snakes, cats, whatever, and is rightfully taking care of them all would be called a breeder. A reputable, good breeder.

And not all pounds are bad, just like I've said not all humane society offer what other humane society can. But it's common that pounds are not highly funded. They are generally where lost animals are taken and their isn't a lot of profit for them. In general, pounds are not what a shelter or humane society is. That's how they get those labels. Is a pound a bad place? No, not all of them are. But like I've said, I've lived all over the united states, and I've seen a lot of pet stores, shelters, pounds, and pounds are, from my experience, the least funded and thus I merely asked if it was a pound. I didn't slander the statement, I just asked.

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## Shyshoos

> Petland is pathetic in my area. All of the reptiles are treated like trash and the dogs are in 4 x 4 foot cages like they are items and not animals.


Hopefully they don't sit for too long in that window. I wouldn't think a cute puppy would. And hopefully they're coming from a good breeder.   :Smile:

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## 4theSNAKElady

> Just goes to show you, not all chains are bad, not all small independants are good.  Not all large scale breeders are "puppy mills" and not all small breeders care for their dogs.  It's better to prosecute those that are breaking laws and abusing the animals, rather than making labels of "puppy mill" or "stock breeder" and accusing ALL of them of being abusive neglectful evil people.
> 
> There used to be tons of breeders that owned large scale places.  HAving a 100 dachunds or 200 german shepards wasn't unheard of.  Kept in proper space, cleaned and fed and watered... there's nothing wrong with a place that keeps a lot of animals.  If someone has ONE dog chained in the backyard starving, hit THEM.  If they have 100 dogs all clean and well cared for, leave them alone.  
> 
> Labeling people with terms like "puppy mill" is ridiculous.  What definition is puppy mill referring to? A place that makes money by breeding dogs? Or a place that neglects dogs?  Any place with over XX dogs?  A lot of people want to say things like "Oh, a puppy mill is a place where they breed dogs for profit without caring for the dogs!" but then you'll see places labeled a puppy mill because they breed dogs as a business, whether or not they care for the dogs properly... while "no kill" shelters are touted as wonderful places, even if they are full of dogs that should be humanely euthanized so they won't be suffering from chronic painful ailments or locked into a kennel for years due to un-resolvable behavioral problems.
> 
> Similiar to people who shout "It's the Deed, not the Breed" about not blaming all pit bulls for the actions of a few, don't try to villify all dog breeders just because they breed dogs.


BEST thing I've heard yet.  :Salute: Wolfy! :Salute:  (for some reason, the system wouldn't let me give you a rep point for this  :Confused: )

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## Jeremy78

I give my local petland all the support I can. I live in Ontario and to be honest the petland by me is amazing. The staff always have everything spotless, everything has food and fresh water. They (the staff) are always taking the puppies out and walking them around the store.
Heck one day when I was in there for feeders they have a backroom for employees only. I wanted to see the sizes so they let me go back. All the feeders were completely spotless with tons of food and water. 
Sure they keep there dogs in smaller kennels but comon... A 4x4 cage for one dog is pretty good if you ask me for a retailer. They have two beardies for sale there that have been there since thefirst time I was there (about two years ago) and they keep them in a well furnished probably 100-125 gallon enclosure. The 8 foot burm had a 4x3 foot enclosure. The juvis tegu had the same. 
This petland by me will continue to get my money as long as they keep up what they're doing. And to be honest, I would use the advice taken from an employee here and use it on my herps.

Just my two cents...

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