# Miscellaneous Herp Interests > Venomous Animals >  Holding Gaboon viper

## Tsanford

I was browsing fauna when I came across this guy with photos of himself holding a baby gaboon viper in his bare hands and on his lap.

In my opinion that is just asking for trouble. I've talked with breeders of hots at the shows and most of them say they never physically handle any of them. 

What do you think of this?

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=534398

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

----------


## tbowman

I would imagine this ending up in the quarantine room.

I don't think anybody in their right mind would condone this. I would hope any venomous breeders that see that sort of thing would not sell to a person like that. Not to mention he's keeping it in an aquarium.

It is unfortunate that people like that are able to get ahold of venomous snakes so easily in some states, and very unfortunate that responsible keepers are going to have to pay the price.

That guy is a headline or a piece of legislation waiting to happen.

----------


## M.P.C

He dosent condone it, he says that no one should copy him for any reasons and that he has double checked with his local hospital and zoo about antivenom and both have it for the snake.

 " people like that"... Do you know the guy, do you know his expierence with hots, or snakes in general for that matter. Is it a smart idea, of course not... but that dosent instantly make him one of those people, he was smart enough to double check about anti venom in more then one location and as for the aquarium... alot of people use them as a quarantene cage how do you know thats not what its being used for since the thread is about his new pickup.

----------


## tbowman

Yes he was smart enough to check up on antivenom before free handling a gaboon viper, sounds like he's got a real grasp on things. I'd really like to know what is being accomplished by doing this.

I can't think of a single respectable person that would do this for any reason. There is no reason to handle a venomous snake without the proper tools. There are rare instances when it's necessary for someone to put their hands on a venomous snake, but free handling, never.

These are the people who ruin it for everyone.

----------

_HVani_ (07-07-2015)

----------


## John1982

Yes, he warns people that he doesn't condone such actions.. Why is he sharing the pictures though, to what end? We all have our silly fancies and take calculated risks every day but what's the point of sharing pictures of such a thing? I personally think he's an idiot for posting the free handling pictures. You can show off the beauty and majesty of your new animal without putting stupid ideas into peoples' heads. I can almost guarantee some poor fool is going to see those pictures and try to emulate them.

----------

_George1994_ (07-09-2015),_rlditmars_ (07-07-2015),sapphira80 (07-15-2015)

----------


## Tsanford

Not to mention because it is a baby, and doesn't have control over its glands. If / when he gets bit, it could be one heck of a hit.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

----------


## anicatgirl

It is a beautiful snake though...

----------


## KMG

> He dosent condone it, he says that no one should copy him for any reasons and that he has double checked with his local hospital and zoo about antivenom and both have it for the snake.
> 
>  " people like that"... Do you know the guy, do you know his expierence with hots, or snakes in general for that matter. Is it a smart idea, of course not... but that dosent instantly make him one of those people, he was smart enough to double check about anti venom in more then one location and as for the aquarium... alot of people use them as a quarantene cage how do you know thats not what its being used for since the thread is about his new pickup.


Does it matter if the antivenom is at two different places if you do not have time to get to the second when the first is out or it is expired. 

If you are going to take these kind of risk I think the antivenom needs to be in your house....no the room.....nooo, your pocket.


I love Gaboons and know they have a laid back personality compared to many hots but the keepers actions are not responsible for the hobby at all.

----------

sapphira80 (07-15-2015),_The Golem_ (07-07-2015)

----------


## tbowman

> Not to mention because it is a baby, and doesn't have control over its glands. If / when he gets bit, it could be one heck of a hit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


Myth

----------

anicatgirl (07-07-2015),_jason_ladouceur_ (09-01-2015),Jeffco (07-18-2015)

----------


## rlditmars

> Does it matter if the antivenom is at two different places if you do not have time to get to the second when the first is out or it is expired. 
> 
> If you are going to take these kind of risk I think the antivenom needs to be in your house....no the room.....nooo, your pocket.


I'm of the opinion that this is just stupidity in action which is the most dangerous of circumstances. Personally I could care less if there is no antivenom nearby. Let Darwinian Theory play its rightful role and remove this individual from the gene pool; hopefully before he breeds.

----------

Tsanford (07-07-2015)

----------


## bcr229

I've followed this guy on Fauna and on RedTailBoas.com for a while.  Would I free-handle a hot?  Not just no but H-E-DOUBLE-HOCKEY-STICK NO.

That said, I do have to admit I'm impressed that he can settle some of these snakes down to the point where he can handle them.  The process can take months and the methods used can be copied to help our non-venomous constrictors become more tolerant of handling as well.

But there's no way I would ever condone free-handling a viper.

----------


## frostysBP

I will try and find the pic but a friend of a friend has a bunch of hots and has big female gaboon (fluffy). He has freehandled it for over 5 years now.. He is crazy. Very smart guy but not for me. His hot room is top a notch setup and fascinating to walk through. The gabby is the only one he free handles and just fluffy not his other gabs.. Just crazy still

Sent from my LGL15G using Tapatalk

----------


## tbowman

Here's another perspective since he keeps us native species as well. Let's say the hospital carries enough antivenom for one bite. Say he gets bit and a child gets bit on the same day. Is it fair that the child be denied antivenom because this guy chose to sit in a pen in his backyard and handle an eastern diamondback like its a ball python?

----------

blbsnakes (08-25-2015),_rlditmars_ (07-07-2015)

----------


## tbowman

Also the zoos antivenom is there for zookeepers. Not private individuals. They'll likely give it up in the event of a bite but it's not unheard of for facilities to get rid of collections after having to give up antivenom to private individuals.

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (09-23-2015)

----------


## theoremofgoats

> That guy is a headline or a piece of legislation waiting to happen.


Yup. Absolutely this.

The viper is gorgeous, but the guy is an idiot. I'm sorry, this is not a risk ANYBODY should be taking-no matter how calm a snake is, chances are it will bite at some point. And if you've got a corn or a ball python, it's no big deal. If you've got a cobra or a viperwell, the irresponsible owners aren't going to be the only ones being punished.

----------

_O'Mathghamhna_ (09-21-2015)

----------


## KMG

> I'm of the opinion that this is just stupidity in action which is the most dangerous of circumstances. Personally I could care less if there is no antivenom nearby. Let Darwinian Theory play its rightful role and remove this individual from the gene pool; hopefully before he breeds.


Im with you but it needs to be done in private. I don't care what you do behind closed doors....just close them. 

When he gets bit people will be clawing at us "crazy snake people" and trying to take even more snakes away from us. 

I don't keep hots but Im not against it. If you keep them and want to handle them don't post it online. It just gives the media more ammunition when something goes bad and will end up hurting the hobby as a whole. 

The media knows nothing about everything but are an expert on it all. Then people swallow the pill without even asking a single question. We should not help them out.

----------

_HVani_ (07-09-2015),_rlditmars_ (07-07-2015)

----------


## tbowman

IMO if you want to own hots, you should at the very least be required to take the necessary steps to procure your own antivenom for the species you intend to work with. Relying on somebody else having it is irresponsible and incredibly selfish.

The herp community as a whole is against restrictive regulation, but this is one instance where some regulation be beneficial. 

I am in favor of a realistic permitting system being put in place for venomous, and probably a similar yet separate permit for large constrictors.

I believe it would go a long way to protect ourselves from keepers like this. As well as the guy keeping a large Python in a 55 gallon aquarium with a blanket for a lid being held on by clothespins.

There needs to be something in place to separate us from the people who are so clearly doing it wrong.

----------

_GoingPostal_ (07-10-2015)

----------


## Reinz

What a gorgeous snake!

Dont really have any positive words for the handler.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------

_AbsoluteApril_ (07-10-2015),anicatgirl (07-08-2015)

----------


## chaples84

This is why I don't have hots...they are to tempting to handle free handed...it all goes hand in hand people..he's just a dare devil that's all...if a guy buys a motor cycle and doesn't wear a helmet and dies do we all who own motorcycle are at fault..no he will be accountable for his actions... He has pictures of him doing what he's not..just let him be..its funny we see a guy like this and we say stupid..we see Steve irwin do it we think hero of wildlife... How do you think new steve Irwin's are made people...

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk

----------


## tbowman

> This is why I don't have hots...they are to tempting to handle free handed...it all goes hand in hand people..he's just a dare devil that's all...if a guy buys a motor cycle and doesn't wear a helmet and dies do we all who own motorcycle are at fault..no he will be accountable for his actions... He has pictures of him doing what he's not..just let him be..its funny we see a guy like this and we say stupid..we see Steve irwin do it we think hero of wildlife... How do you think new steve Irwin's are made people...
> 
> Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk


#1 If I kept hots I would not be the slightest bit tempted to free handle one

#2 There will never be another Steve Irwin 

#3 Clearly you don't understand the way things work when it comes to the reptile world. We are ALL punished for the actions of the few.

I've never seen one person I have an ounce of respect for cupping a venomous snake in their bare hands.

Especially not a Gaboon.

----------

Tsanford (07-09-2015)

----------


## chaples84

The only laws going on right now are the wildlife saying that the retics and burms are invasive species... That's all buddy...calm down..did the s.s kick in your door and take your snakes????? No they didn't and yes there will be alot more Steve Irwin's.... I really wish this guy didn't share pictures of him doing this cuz all its doing is causing mass hysteria.. I'm sure this aint the guys first rodeo..and in the pictures I didn't see his hands anywhere..the pics I saw anyway..I'm sure he had a hook right next to the rocking chair. I say if he has hots..and he wants to handle them..and he isn't breaking any laws...they by all means handle the hots...all he wanted was for people to enjoy the pictures he took not bash him...

Sent from my XT1028 using Tapatalk

----------

maausen (07-11-2015)

----------


## tbowman

> The only laws going on right now are the wildlife saying that the retics and burms are invasive species..


That may be the biggest threat at the moment at the federal level, but don't think for a second that restrictions aren't being introduced all the time on the state a municipal level. The groups who introduce this legislation (HSUS, etc) can only use this sort of thing as fodder to push their agenda and confirm to the public that reptile owners across the nation are reckless and behave similarly to this individual. 

The same way certain groups push for more strict gun control every time there is some sort of tragedy involving firearms.

If things worked as simply as you think they do, I'd have no problem with these people eliminating themselves from the gene pool. But knowing the fact that it could very well effect responsible keepers everywhere, it's extremely disturbing.

----------

_kiiarah_ (07-09-2015),KMG (07-09-2015)

----------


## bcr229

> That may be the biggest threat at the moment at the federal level, but don't think for a second that restrictions aren't being introduced all the time on the state a municipal level. The groups who introduce this legislation (HSUS, etc) can only use this sort of thing as fodder to push their agenda and confirm to the public that reptile owners across the nation are reckless and behave similarly to this individual.


This.  Here in WV we have the "Dangerous Wild Animals Act".  The "Dangerous Wild Animals Board", which is comprised of three appointed representatives from DNR, Ag, and HHS, meets annually to review the list of regulated animals and make recommendations to add animals to or remove animals from the list.  The legislature then votes on the list during the next session.

So far no snake species are on the list, but initially the Board recommended that all venomous snakes and all constrictors over six feet be placed on it.  One twit free-handling a hot who gets bit would ruin keeping hots within the state for everyone.

----------


## KMG

> This is why I don't have hots...they are to tempting to handle free handed...it all goes hand in hand people..he's just a dare devil that's all...if a guy buys a motor cycle and doesn't wear a helmet and dies do we all who own motorcycle are at fault..no he will be accountable for his actions... He has pictures of him doing what he's not..just let him be..its funny we see a guy like this and we say stupid..we see Steve irwin do it we think hero of wildlife... How do you think new steve Irwin's are made people...


If you die on your motorcycle the event is pretty much over as society is used to vehicle collisions. However society is not used to the "crazy snake guy" next door handling dangerous snakes and getting bit. People will be willing to fight to get this kind of person out of their area. My neighbors don't know anything about my collection and it is harmless. Check around and see all the people being fought about harmless collections by landlords, HOAs, municipalities, etc. and then tell me what you think about this guy and his online pics.

With a little online research you can see how over and over again people have a knee jerk reaction to one event and try to change a ton of things they have no understanding of. 

Let this guy get bit and die in his house with the snake on the loose. People will be all over it.

This guy should not be compared to those seen on TV. I have never seen any of those people sit down and place a cobra in their lap. They use a hook or grabber and take the snake by the head. They have much more control and are doing a very dangerous thing much safer than the person in question.

----------

_GoingPostal_ (07-10-2015),_kiiarah_ (07-09-2015)

----------


## Albert Clark

CLOWN. If this guy (clown) doesn't have the appropriate venomous licensing and snake handling permits he should be prosecuted. If he does, he should still be prosecuted for all the lesser offenses.    :Salute:

----------


## John1982

> ..its funny we see a guy like this and we say stupid..we see Steve irwin do it we think hero of wildlife...


Do you not differentiate between tailing a venomous and letting it rest in your lap/hands?

----------

KMG (07-09-2015),_MidSouthMorphs_ (07-26-2015)

----------


## KMG

> I really wish this guy didn't share pictures of him doing this cuz all its doing is causing mass hysteria..



Hysteria? I have not taken this threads reactions as such. Seems everybody is pretty calm to me. Realistic, but calm.

----------


## tbowman

> This.  Here in WV we have the "Dangerous Wild Animals Act".  The "Dangerous Wild Animals Board", which is comprised of three appointed representatives from DNR, Ag, and HHS, meets annually to review the list of regulated animals and make recommendations to add animals to or remove animals from the list.  The legislature then votes on the list during the next session.
> 
> So far no snake species are on the list, but initially the Board recommended that all venomous snakes and all constrictors over six feet be placed on it.  One twit free-handling a hot who gets bit would ruin keeping hots within the state for everyone.


Yep. Similarly, Ohio very quickly went from being one of the more relaxed states in regards to exotics in general to being one of the more restrictive. All in reaction to a single incident.

----------


## anicatgirl

> Yep. Similarly, Ohio very quickly went from being one of the more relaxed states in regards to exotics in general to being one of the more restrictive. All in reaction to a single incident.


Really....?!?!  :Weirdface:  That's frightening...

----------


## tcutting

> Do you not differentiate between tailing a venomous and letting it rest in your lap/hands?


you know he didnt always only tail them. just saying I am pretty certain I saw video of Steve letting a Australian brown snake crawl around face and head while loosely handling it as well. I will see what I can find.

----------


## tcutting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UETfZLsWWAM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6F99VFc4GY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4nmMTgJHA0

and really many of the video clips from that series he is doing things that are less than stellar from what most all of us would consider proper venomous handling practice. just saying.

----------


## John1982

> you know he didnt always only tail them. just saying I am pretty certain I saw video of Steve letting a Australian brown snake crawl around face and head while loosely handling it as well. I will see what I can find.


And I will gladly call him an idiot for making that video if/when you find it - much as I loved the man's enthusiasm and all that he did for animals in general. I just can't picture him purposefully doing such a thing.

----------


## John1982

Checking out some videos now.  :Very Happy:

----------


## John1982

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UETfZLsWWAM
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6F99VFc4GY
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4nmMTgJHA0
> 
> and really many of the video clips from that series he is doing things that are less than stellar from what most all of us would consider proper venomous handling practice. just saying.


Every time he actually handles one of the venomous he is tailing it or using another object to maintain control the animal. There are some instances where he allows one to crawl near him while maintaining stillness and calm but this is completely different than cradling a young viper in your hands or purposefully placing it in your lap. One of the major messages in the series seems to be that snakes aren't out to get you and if you just leave them alone, remain calm, and give them a wide berth then you should be ok.

----------


## Gio

> Yep. Similarly, Ohio very quickly went from being one of the more relaxed states in regards to exotics in general to being one of the more restrictive. All in reaction to a single incident.


If I recall OH or at least certain municipalities in the state put a ban on Pit Bulls too. 

Lots of knee jerk reactions it seems.

I have enjoyed bringing my collection into my kid's elementary school and showing them to the kids. I was very happy at how receptive the principal and teachers were. Of course the kids loved it, but I'm really considering staying on the down-low and just keeping the snakes a family thing.

I love getting the word out, but as pointed out 1 simple incident/accident will overshadow 100 positive presentations.

----------


## natethegreat1419

More balls than me because even though I might live would not want to go through that kind of pain for no good reason

Sent from my 7040N using Tapatalk

----------


## tbowman

> More balls than me because even though I might live would not want to go through that kind of pain for no good reason
> 
> Sent from my 7040N using Tapatalk


*Less brains than you

----------


## natethegreat1419

> *Less brains than you


Definitely.

Sent from my 7040N using Tapatalk

----------


## Kayak Steve

Snake version of Russian Roulette.

----------


## tbowman

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UETfZLsWWAM
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6F99VFc4GY
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4nmMTgJHA0
> 
> and really many of the video clips from that series he is doing things that are less than stellar from what most all of us would consider proper venomous handling practice. just saying.


There is a big difference between a viper and an elapid. Anyone who's worked venomous for real will tell you that elapids are much more predictable. The most experienced people in the world will tail a cobra because it's generally safe once you understand the body mechanics of elapids. Vipers, especially Gaboons, are extremely unpredictable and they can hit you from any angle at any time. I don't see many professionals putting hands on a pit viper unless it's absolutely required.

----------


## kiiarah

> There is a big difference between a viper and an elapid. Anyone who's worked venomous for real will tell you that elapids are much more predictable. The most experienced people in the world will tail a cobra because it's generally safe once you understand the body mechanics of elapids. Vipers, especially Gaboons, are extremely unpredictable and they can hit you from any angle at any time. I don't see many professionals putting hands on a pit viper unless it's absolutely required.



I watched a documentary recently that pointed out that, despite how clumsy their shape might make them look, gaboons in particular can strike in a 180 degree radius. They also claimed that their striking speed has been measured and clocked in as being faster than lightning striking the ground. If I am not mistaken they also have the longest fangs of any venomous species at around 2'' (correct me if I am wrong there). That is not a snake you want to mess. I understand the temptation, they are beautiful animals, but that seems likely to wind up taking a nice long dirt nap thanks to his efforts.

----------

Megg (07-15-2015),Tsanford (07-12-2015)

----------


## marya1962

I wrote on the guys post, telling him he needs to have his own antivenom  on hand as well, just in case there's not enough at the hospital and more needs to be shipped in. I'd gotten the impression he was doing it somewhat illegally? Perhaps without the proper permits? And hadn't really checked into what to do if he was bit except die? Is this the same guy? If so, I also asked him if he really cared for his snake because of there was no hot handler nearby (or even if there was but they couldn't take it or want it) the snake would be confiscated and euthanized. That to me is not really caring for your snake. The overall repercussions for the snake owning community as a whole would be ginormously impacted negatively. We'd be hearing of it for years about how we're irresponsible individuals not caring who got bit or killed by our snakes. All because of one guy with a venomous. I can understand him wanting acknowledgement of his achieving having held his gaboon by posting pictures of the event, but it shouldn't have been done. Gives everybody the wrong ideas. I love venomous, but know my limits and that I'm too careless. If you're going to do something, do it right. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------


## Reinz

This guy is obviously an attention seeker. 

Who knows, he may have gone so far as to have removed the snake's fangs and or venom ducts and sacks.

----------


## Tsanford

> This guy is obviously an attention seeker. 
> 
> Who knows, he may have gone so far as to have removed the snake's fangs and or venom ducts and sacks.


A venomoid

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

----------


## sapphira80

> the irresponsible owners aren't going to be the only ones being punished.



^^^^^ This. Several proper on this thread make very good points, but being on Tapatalk, I can only quote one. I saw this post the first day and had to do a double take.

First, let me say, I am not against keeping hots, if that's what you want to do. I appreciate the beauty of many species, especially Gaboons, but I don't want to be responsible for one.

I think adults should be allowed to do as they like, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others. I don't know this guy, or anything about him, but when I saw this post, the mother in me wondered how close his neighbors live. God forbid, what if he were bit or dropped dead of a heart attack, and the snake made it's way into a neighbor's yard where children were playing? That may be melodramatic, but if I, as a snake lover, have that thought cross my mind, what would the general public (or worse, the media) think?

I am just one IMHO, but I could see that used as an example of why snakes are harmful to society at large, and fodder to push more bans.

----------


## MidSouthMorphs

> He dosent condone it, he says that no one should copy him for any reasons and that he has double checked with his local hospital and zoo about antivenom and both have it for the snake.
> 
>  " people like that"... Do you know the guy, do you know his expierence with hots, or snakes in general for that matter. Is it a smart idea, of course not... but that dosent instantly make him one of those people, he was smart enough to double check about anti venom in more then one location and as for the aquarium... alot of people use them as a quarantene cage how do you know thats not what its being used for since the thread is about his new pickup.


Yes he is "one of those" types.  Handling any hot like this is asking for trouble.  And antivenom is fine and all but it doesn't mean you will survive the bite.  I am friends with a guy who was the primary caretaker (zookeeper) of all venomous at a zoo.  He was tagged on the arm by a Gaboon Viper and barely survived with adequate antivenom on hand, with some having to be rushed in to save him.  Over 30 bikes is what it took and he lost a lot of function on his arm.  Posting pictures like that is spreading mishandling of dangerous venomous snakes.  I have had hots since 2005, even had a pair of west African Gaboon Vipers, the 7 years I had them, my hands physically touched them maybe 5 times when it was absolutely necessary with the tubing method.  That is a clear indication of someone who doesn't respect their animals, and eventually he will pay for that if he hasn't already.

----------

EarMice (07-27-2015)

----------


## Hypancistrus

The ignorance shown by some of the new keepers/ members in this thread is astounding. This is not good for the reptile hobby. Situations like this should be vehemently condemned by all herpers, everywhere.

No good can come of this.

----------

blbsnakes (08-25-2015),_MidSouthMorphs_ (08-24-2015)

----------


## lpaulgib

What an incredibly stupid thing to do. Even if he has a million vials of anti-venom next to him and a doctor on hand, you can still die from a bite. Anti-venom doesn't guarantee your recovery, although it is extremely helpful. Even if you do survive, you can lose a hand, arm, or have other permanent damage. You will suffer regardless. Not only does he have all that to look forwards to, he will be taking anti-venom from people who might have an accidental bite. 

All for what? A big balls card? Holding these animals like they are a corn snake is the ultimate disrespect to their lethality. There is no scientific, health, or monetary gain for doing something that dangerous. I'm all for people keeping hots. I think they are amazing animals, and I would love to see them. At the same time though, you have to respect these animals. He's setting himself up for failure for no reason at all. I think it's disgraceful and his dangerous animals should go to a better keeper.

----------

_O'Mathghamhna_ (09-21-2015)

----------


## Stewart_Reptiles

*This thread has been cleaned up and a spinoff has been created in QT http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...viper-spin-off 

Please keep in mind that the TOS still apply in QT

If you wish to gain access to QT please PM one of the ADMINS (name in RED)

Now I will also ask the participants of this thread to please STAY ON TOPIC.

Thank you.*

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (09-23-2015),MarkS (09-23-2015)

----------


## ShaggyRS6

I have no right to comment. Watching a few YouTube videos and only discovering a passion for snakes in the last couple of months give me no right to comment. But with that mind, kids will be watching that thread, and kids think stuff like that is cool. I'd hate for a child to go out in his back yard as a result of watching that and pickup a venomous shake.

----------


## tbowman

> I have no right to comment. Watching a few YouTube videos and only discovering a passion for snakes in the last couple of months give me no right to comment. But with that mind, kids will be watching that thread, and kids think stuff like that is cool. I'd hate for a child to go out in his back yard as a result of watching that and pickup a venomous shake.


Or for a certain animal rights group to obtain those photos and use them to portray all snake keepers in that light.

----------


## ShaggyRS6

Just out of interest.  Is this chap still alive?

----------

