# Colubrids > Hognose >  Maybe one of you can tell me?

## musicalKeyes

When I first started looking at which snake I wanted to get, I was very interested in Hognoses. however, when I asked my local shop about them, I was told they are illegal in Illinois. I assumed it is because they are rear-fanged, but I can't find anything that lists them as illegal, or the reason, only what the Illinois Dangerous Animals Act says, which lists only "any poisonous or life‑threatening reptile." (A possible court defense? The word "poisonous" when applied to snakes has been discussed in other threads, I believe.) Anyways, are they really illegal? And why?

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## retributionreptiles

http://chicagoherp.org/herplaws.php

This is the only thing that i could find that dumbed down the laws. I honestly don't know how old this is but it's a good read from what i read of it. hope this helps!!!

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_musicalKeyes_ (02-14-2010)

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## musicalKeyes

> http://chicagoherp.org/herplaws.php
> 
> This is the only thing that i could find that dumbed down the laws. I honestly don't know how old this is but it's a good read from what i read of it. hope this helps!!!


Thanks, it was definitely an interesting read with a lot of good information, but still nothing about hognoses or rear-fanged snakes  :Sad:  I wish Illinois had more specific pet laws! It's way too hard to tell what they mean by "life-threatening."  :Rage:

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## RedDevil

They are technically venomous, regardless of how harmless they generally are. I wouldn't doubt that if a law on venomous animals is in effect, that it would include rear-fanged snakes aswell.

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_musicalKeyes_ (02-15-2010)

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## musicalKeyes

> They are technically venomous, regardless of how harmless they generally are. I wouldn't doubt that if a law on venomous animals is in effect, that it would include rear-fanged snakes aswell.


Well, I've been curious, so I've been doing a lot more research, and I guess that they're just as venomous as common Garter snakes (I guess they have more of a "toxic spit" than venom), but are much more adept at delivering it because of their enlarged rear fangs. People have reported swelling, redness, and a tingling sensation at the site when bitten, but these are also the people who have reactions to Garter snake bites. The only thing Illinois law has to say about them is "...poisonous life-threatening reptile" which isn't clear at all. Has anyone ever died of a hognose bite? Maybe I'll shoot my local State official an email or something.

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## Gregg Madden

Hognose snakes are not illegal to keep in Il... However you do need to obtain a permit to keep them there... It has nothing to do with their venom... It has to do with the fact that in Illinois they are an endangered species... You can easily get a permit to keep them but will most likely have to find a breeder outside of your state to ship one to you...

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_musicalKeyes_ (02-17-2010)

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## musicalKeyes

> Hognose snakes are not illegal to keep in Il... However you do need to obtain a permit to keep them there... It has nothing to do with their venom... It has to do with the fact that in Illinois they are an endangered species... You can easily get a permit to keep them but will most likely have to find a breeder outside of your state to ship one to you...



Thank you so much! Do you know which permit is needed, or how to go about obtaining it? 

Also, it's the Western Hognose snake that is threatened in Illinois. If I had a Southern or Eastern hognose, would the permit then apply?

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## dembonez

their venom does nothing only really does something if ur allergic to bees and still barley nothing 


not to mention thats IF IT BITES YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE! :Wag of the finger:

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## mainbutter

a bit off topic on their venom:
http://www.herpnet.net/bite/

Back on topic:

I actually thought they WERE illegal in IL as they never have any at reptile shows there, but hopefully Gregg is right (sounds like he knows what he's talking about) and you can get a permit.  I'd contact your local fish and wildlife service, they might be able to help you.

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_musicalKeyes_ (02-18-2010)

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## dembonez

> a bit off topic on their venom:
> http://www.herpnet.net/bite/
> 
> Back on topic:
> 
> I actually thought they WERE illegal in IL as they never have any at reptile shows there, but hopefully Gregg is right (sounds like he knows what he's talking about) and you can get a permit.  I'd contact your local fish and wildlife service, they might be able to help you.


THAT IS INSANE ive never seen anyone like that!

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## musicalKeyes

> a bit off topic on their venom:
> http://www.herpnet.net/bite/
> 
> Back on topic:
> 
> I actually thought they WERE illegal in IL as they never have any at reptile shows there, but hopefully Gregg is right (sounds like he knows what he's talking about) and you can get a permit.  I'd contact your local fish and wildlife service, they might be able to help you.


DDDDDDDDDD: goodness. that looks horrible. I'm pretty much not going to let anyone hold it if I ever get one.  :Surprised: 

I thought they were illegal too, and I figured that's why i haven't seen any. I found a site for the permit here and they have permit applications you can print off and mail in. So I guess that's what I'll be doing tomorrow  :Very Happy:

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## mainbutter

Just to quell any fears you may have of these guys:

99.99% of the time when these guys bite out of defense, it is mock-striking with the mouth closed.

I'd never hesitate in letting a friend handle a hoggie, they really aren't that bad.  The link is just the worst of the worst of what could happen, and a good reason to NOT do what the guy did.  If you read the article, it states that the guy LET THE SNAKE CHEW ON HIM FOR 3-5 MINUTES.  This works the venom in much much much much much more than just a quick strike.

Don't ever let a rear fanger chew on you for an extended period of time, since it's pretty easy to get 'em off your hand.

Good luck with the permit and getting a new scaly buddy!  Make sure to post pics  :Wink:

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_musicalKeyes_ (02-18-2010)

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## CoolioTiffany

Hognoses, however, can be dangerous due to their saliva depending on how allergic you are to the saliva.  From what I have heard, if you are very allergic the bite can be as bad as a Copperhead bite.  I have a Hognose, but I'm not concerned about my allergic reaction to the bite even though I doubt I would get bitten.  If I did, I would not let the snake chew on me once it has latched on.  That is how the saliva is injected into you, so if a Hog does happen to bite you or anyone, get it off as quickly as possible.

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_musicalKeyes_ (02-18-2010)

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## musicalKeyes

I suppose I should have said "I won't let certain people hold it"  :Razz:  I've been tagged more times than I care to count (when I was younger, meaning around 6 or 7, I decided the best way to catch garter snakes was to just let them bite me. ohhh youth, hahaha  :Wink: ) My cousin's have crazy amounts of allergies, so I don't think I'd let them risk it, or let any of the kids in there classes hold it if I brought it in for show and tell when I brought my other snakes (about this; on the permit, you have to pick a reason for wanting to own the permit, and one of these is educational; do you think this would count? Or do you think they'd even look into it?). 

Does anyone know how often they turn these types of permit applications down, or has anyone applied before?

Sorry for all the questions, and thanks for all the answers  :Very Happy:

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## mainbutter

a bit more on the off-topic hoggie venom, courtesy of Vin Russo at Cutting Edge Herp:

http://www.cuttingedgeherp.com/nss-f...tures/MexF.jpg

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_musicalKeyes_ (02-18-2010)

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## singingtothewheat

Illinois department of Fish and Wildlife, as mentioned is the key to the question I think

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_musicalKeyes_ (02-18-2010)

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## Gregg Madden

> Hognoses, however, can be dangerous due to their saliva depending on how allergic you are to the saliva.  From what I have heard, if you are very allergic the bite can be as bad as a Copperhead bite.


This is not true...
They actually have a venom... The reaction people get when bitten is not an alleric reaction to their saliva... The reaction is from being envenomed... No matter how bad a bite can be from a hognose snake, it can never be compared to that of a bite from a copperhead... Even a mild copperhead bite will be many times worse than even the most severe hognose bite...

Besides, in order for you to be allergic to something, your body needs to first be introduce to it...

If you are allergic to bees, it does not mean you will be allergic to snake venom...

There are other factors that determine how bad a hognose bite can be and none of it has to do with allergies...

#1 The snakes size

#2 How long did the snake "chew"... They are a rear fanged species... However, they do not have the most advanced delivery system... Their fangs are not grooved and there is no duct running from the gland to the fang...

#3 Were the rear fangs even used during the bite??? Despite what many believe, a hognose snake and most rear fanged snakes do not have to work to sink their rear fangs into you or its prey... The fangs are set right under the eye, not way back in its mouth... In hognose snakes the fangs are moveable... They are not as well developed like a vipers front folding fangs but they are hinged and hogs can opt not to use them during a bite... 

With all this being said, the huge majority of hognose bites do not result in envenoming and you will get nothing but a few holes in your finger as a result of a bite...

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_RedDevil_ (02-20-2010)

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## Gregg Madden

> (about this; on the permit, you have to pick a reason for wanting to own the permit, and one of these is educational; do you think this would count? Or do you think they'd even look into it?). 
> 
> Does anyone know how often they turn these types of permit applications down, or has anyone applied before?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, and thanks for all the answers


Educational would be a good broad reason to want to obtain a permit...

You will not get turned down... They will not be looking into it... It really boils down to the fact that your state wants money... If you pay, you can keep... Its that simple...

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_musicalKeyes_ (02-19-2010),WickedBalls (02-19-2010)

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## A2reptiles

There are many assumptions that permit only  pertains to normal phase western hognose. This morning I spoke with the  IDNR endangered species project manager and he confirmed residents of  Illinois must possess a permit regardless of hognose morph.

 If anyone has any questions give me a call 815 409-6295

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