# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics >  IJ Carpet Python X Ball Python!

## bait4snake

Giggidy

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=7&de=514179

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## Sausage

Sigh... why do people keep making hybrids that there's no demand for?   :Sad:

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## bait4snake

I didn't think it was even genetically possible.  I've had a male JCP for over 5 years and never even thought about it, lol.

I wonder what ever happened to the Spider Ball Python X Albino Granite Burmese Python project...

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## tracy0416

I don't find this snake attractive in the least.

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## darkangel

It's kind of evil looking.  Who would pay for this?

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## Jenny_Bp

> Sigh... why do people keep making hybrids that there's no demand for?


Im with you. I think its so sad, I dont think mutations are a beautiful thing in life. poor animals , thats like mixing a panther with a tiger.

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## _BoidFinatic_

It's a beautiful snake IMO. I am not saying that the morals are right though.

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## Nicole N

I think the snake is beautiful, and I'd be that one really odd person out there that would buy one -- however, not for that price tag. And I'd feel bad about encouraging someone into breeding those just so they could make a fast buck.

Hybrid and/or mutations can be very beautiful in life, but when naturally occuring and not spawned by monetary greed  :Sad: 
Animals sometimes do hybridize in the wild.  There are wholphins (whale+dolphin) and other strange hybrids out there.  I think There is a tiger/lion mix too that was found.

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## sweety314

DARN! the ad's gone. Any other links for pics? there are a couple of hybrids sites, but they cover things like zonkeys, wholphins, tigons, ligers, etc.

But yeah, that's just wrong. Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.

Man screws up nature enough as it is....that's why there are so many endangered and threatened species.....why fuff it up even more, DELIBERATELY?????

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## Ginevive

I would love to see the pic. I see nothing at all wrong with creating hybrids. My friend has mules that are awesome animals. To decry snake hybrids is hypocritical to me.

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## smilin-buddha

I am the one that bred that snake. I didn't post to alot of places do to anti-hybrid thinking. I am being honest as to what they are. If you don't like them that is your choice.

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_andyroof1979_ (08-05-2014)

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## Kaaa

I think the picture above is a beautiful snake!

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## MeMe

> I am the one that bred that snake. I didn't post to alot of places do to anti-hybrid thinking. I am being honest as to what they are. If you don't like them that is your choice.



I think it is a beautiful snake! 

 :Very Happy:

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## Tussin

I think that snake is awsome looking. As far as hybirds go so like them some dont, look at the F2 Superball, I think certin ones are amazing animals.

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## jhall1468

> Im with you. I think its so sad, I dont think mutations are a beautiful thing in life. poor animals , thats like mixing a panther with a tiger.


Or maybe a Liger? How about a Mule? Maybe a Guineafowl? Perhaps a Cama, Wolphin, Savannah cat, or Zorse?

Personally that's not my favorite cross, but to call it a "poor animal" is relatively silly. Do you realize some of the dog breeds millions of people buy every year have extraordinary health problems? For those that have such "issues" with hybriding, do you feel the same about the more common hybrids? Like the Mule or Hinny?

Why is it that creating morphs for financial reasons more acceptable than hybrids? I realize ethical standards are fairly subjective, but that's just absurd. Persoanlly, I consider making dog breeds that can't breathe through their noses a great deal more unethical than crossing snakes that thrive. And I'm willing to bet, a few of the folks who take "ethical" stances against snake hybrids, own a few of those dogs.

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## sg1trogdor

I agree most dog species were/are man made.  I dont hear anyone complaining everytime they pick up their little rat looking dog.  Its a matter of opinion but before you judge one form of genetic alteration due to select breeding look at them all.  Im not sayin i would ever cross breed anything but dont be so quick to judge.  And IMO it is a nice looking snake.  Remember that every dog species came from the wolf.  And I mean every.

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## smilin-buddha

I even got two sets of twins.

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## xdeus

> I even got two sets of twins.


That's very interesting.  I wonder if it was just an anomaly of if it had something  to do with being hybrids? 

BTW, I was wondering if you could provide some other details.  What was the size of the clutch?  Did you use a male or female Ball or Carpet?

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## smilin-buddha

I Female Irian to a normal male ball python. He had a cool pattern which I thought would match up well. Started with 23 eggs. Some were proven non-viable and were discarded. The remaining eggs were put into the incubator. I ended up having 7 going full term. I cut the eggs on Day 52. That is when I noticed the two sets of twins . So in the end  I had 9 lost one to hardedned yolk in the stomach.

I will post some pictures when I get home if you want to see them. I have multiple pictures of the parents as well as the hatchlings.

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## MeMe

Wow!

that's pretty amazing. 2 sets of twins!

they are very pretty! 

 :Good Job:

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## N4S

I like them. 

I think hybrids are cooler than regular morphs to tell you the truth.

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## Mendel's Balls

> Im with you. I think its so sad, I dont think mutations are a beautiful thing in life. poor animals , thats like mixing a panther with a tiger.


Mutations and hybrids are two seperate things......try to get a little informed before you make a strong opinion.




> But yeah, that's just wrong. Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.
> 
> Man screws up nature enough as it is....that's why there are so many endangered and threatened species.....why fuff it up even more, DELIBERATELY?????


We do have real global environmental and sustainability problems, but I wouldn't put human hybridization of species anywhere close to the top of that list.  In fact, I really woulndt even lisit it as a problem.  Exotic species  is a much bigger problem for example.

You also assume that nature looks out for us....I can tell you she does not..Nature can be a very neglectful mother.......very little of what we eat today is "natural"...and it has little to do with genetic engineering or pesticide....

Corn, carrots, tomatoes, wheat, sheep, cows, bananas, the list goes on.....were all created by man through selective breeding, domestication, and/or hybridization by early agriculturists....these "unnatural events" that permitted human societies to form.  

That's why so much of the opposition to genetically modified foods today is nothing but Pagan-like, Dirt worshiping nonsense.....there is nothing natural about corns or tomatoes..they simply did not exist before man created them...and organic farmers can use some of the strongest pesticides as long as they are produced by living things......

GM crops and livestock, on the other hand, can grow on less land, produce less harmful waste, and often use less harmful pesticides.   

But perhaps you want to go back to being a true hunter-gather.  And even if we wanted to do that...it wouldn't work today...there are simply too many humans on this planet.  We need  the green revolution of the 60's and the  biotech  revolution of today to help meet the global populations needs.

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## Nicole N

Hybrids are great when the breeder does their homework as this one did.

Hybrids aren't cool when someone just slaps two animals together and says "Get it done." without knowing the possibilities of hereditary genetic troubles and not passing info on.  I have a big problem with people who sell animals fullbred or hybridized without full disclosure.

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## smilin-buddha

Mom and Dad

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## MarkS

> Personally that's not my favorite cross, but to call it a "poor animal" is relatively silly. Do you realize some of the dog breeds millions of people buy every year have extraordinary health problems? For those that have such "issues" with hybriding, do you feel the same about the more common hybrids? Like the Mule or Hinny?
> 
> Why is it that creating morphs for financial reasons more acceptable than hybrids? I realize ethical standards are fairly subjective, but that's just absurd. Persoanlly, I consider making dog breeds that can't breathe through their noses a great deal more unethical than crossing snakes that thrive. And I'm willing to bet, a few of the folks who take "ethical" stances against snake hybrids, own a few of those dogs.


I don't believe that any of those mammal hybrids you mentioned are fertile so the cross breeding STOPS with the first generation.  As far as dogs go, unless you are talking about Dog/wolf hybrids (which I also disagree with), ALL DOGS BREEDS ARE THE SAME SPECIES, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM IS CANIS FAMILIARIS.....  It's a COMPLETELY different definition of the term 'HYBRID' then what is meant when breeding different species together.    

However many and probably even most snake hybrids ARE fertile.  THAT is where the problem lies.  It does not take too many generations of back crossing to produce animals that outwardly look just like ball pythons or IJ carpet pythons...  However they will NOT be ball pythons or carpet pythons, they will still be hybrids that contain a significant amount of genetic material from the other species and you WILL wind up with sporadic and unpredictable results when breeding.  It would be like a chemist trying to mix different ingredients together to achieve a certain goal, when one of those ingredients has been contaminated.   

Don't think it will never happen, it already HAS happened with other species.  NO WHERE can you buy a corn snake and be 100% guaranteed of getting an animal that is pure Pantherophis guttatus guttatus.  (or Elaphe guttata guttata for those who have been around longer) The same has happened with many species of king snakes and gopher snakes as well.  At one time I thought that ball pythons would be a safe refuge from all the hybridizing madness, but I guess I was wrong about that.  

Mark

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## python.princess

the way i see it, these are being hybridized (is that a word?) in captivity- NOT in the wild. so, really, what impact is it going to make on anything besides the breeders and owners? maybe if they were breeding different animals together then releasing them into the wild, i'd see it as a problem but.... 


i think they're gorgeous! :Rock on:

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## N4S

Can you post some of the other baby pics?

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## smilin-buddha



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## Karma

Wow those are beautiful.

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## Rapture

> As far as dogs go, unless you are talking about Dog/wolf hybrids (which I also disagree with), ALL DOGS BREEDS ARE THE SAME SPECIES, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM IS CANIS FAMILIARIS.....


It's my understanding that the domestic dog came about as a result of the interbreeding of other species in the canine family, such as wolves, coyotes, dingos, etc... is this correct? If so, it seems like the same situation, only thousands of years earlier than dogs.

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## Rapture

I think they are neat looking animals, and I especially like #3. I have nothing against responsible hybridizing... It seems a smart thing to do to have all hybrids microchipped and genetics documented, so that down the line when there are many 75%/25% or similar hybrids running around, their genetic heritage can still be easily identified. Also, as long as hybrids do not outnumber pure species. We want our kids and our kids' kids to be able to behold a pure ball python, right?

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## Ginevive

> I am the one that bred that snake. I didn't post to alot of places do to anti-hybrid thinking. I am being honest as to what they are. If you don't like them that is your choice.


Wow; that thing is beautiful. I wonder if it'll retain characteristics from what side? Would it ball up like a BP or try to get away instead? Or would its general body type be thicker and fatter (BP) or slenderer like the JCP?
I would love to know how it matures.

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## Ginevive

And.. why not name them "Ball-Pets" instead?
Sorry; I am in a goofy mood, hehe.  :Smile:

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## smilin-buddha

I work in a computer lad. SO I thought it was funny for Carpal tunnel syndrome. I have a warped sense of humor. Todd

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## casperca

> I don't believe that any of those mammal hybrids you mentioned are fertile so the cross breeding STOPS with the first generation.  As far as dogs go, unless you are talking about Dog/wolf hybrids (which I also disagree with), ALL DOGS BREEDS ARE THE SAME SPECIES, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM IS CANIS FAMILIARIS.....  It's a COMPLETELY different definition of the term 'HYBRID' then what is meant when breeding different species together.    
> 
> However many and probably even most snake hybrids ARE fertile.  THAT is where the problem lies.  It does not take too many generations of back crossing to produce animals that outwardly look just like ball pythons or IJ carpet pythons...  However they will NOT be ball pythons or carpet pythons, they will still be hybrids that contain a significant amount of genetic material from the other species and you WILL wind up with sporadic and unpredictable results when breeding.  It would be like a chemist trying to mix different ingredients together to achieve a certain goal, when one of those ingredients has been contaminated.   
> 
> Don't think it will never happen, it already HAS happened with other species.  NO WHERE can you buy a corn snake and be 100% guaranteed of getting an animal that is pure Pantherophis guttatus guttatus.  (or Elaphe guttata guttata for those who have been around longer) The same has happened with many species of king snakes and gopher snakes as well.  At one time I thought that ball pythons would be a safe refuge from all the hybridizing madness, but I guess I was wrong about that.  
> 
> Mark


VERY good point.  I hope that it will not come down to that for ball pythons.  I didn't know of this issue with corns.    :Rock on:

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## Kom@tose

I think they are nice looking snakes. I never understood the huge moral objection people have with hybrids. I understand people having a problem with people selling mixed breeds as pure, like what happens with a lot of Boas and Carpets, but as long as its marked as a hybrid, whats the big deal? There are still exactly as many pure blood animals around as there were before some guy mixed a IJ with a BP.

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## Ginevive

> I work in a computer lad. SO I thought it was funny for Carpal tunnel syndrome. I have a warped sense of humor. Todd


So do I  :Smile:  Here's to not getting Carpal Tunnel  :Smile: 
I hope that you'll continue to update us as the snakes get older. I would love to see how they turn out!

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## elevatethis

Carpall, huh?

Not a fan of how the head turned out...it looks all bug-eyed to me and its nose doesn't look "right."

Hybrids aren't really my thing...this is a perfect example of why.  I like my ball pythons just how they are  :Wink:   :Smile:

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## bait4snake

I have a great solution to this whole "I like hybrids" versus "creating hybrids is a sin against Mother Earth and causes global warming" argument.

I call it "Hybrid Offsets".  For as many hybrids as you produce, breed that many pure bloods.  Preferably morphs  :Wink:

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## elevatethis

> I think they are nice looking snakes. I never understood the huge moral objection people have with hybrids. I understand people having a problem with people selling mixed breeds as pure, like what happens with a lot of Boas and Carpets, but as long as its marked as a hybrid, whats the big deal? There are still exactly as many pure blood animals around as there were before some guy mixed a IJ with a BP.


Not to start a hybrid discussion, but my personal feelings go something like this.  When thinking about a hybrid project, I'd ask myself a few questions; 

Will the resulting offspring be healthy?

If they have major deformities, will their quality of life be affected?

What extra care would be required if they do, in fact, require it as a result of the hybridization?

How does the cross affect its captive care requirements?  Will I have the resources to identify and meet these needs?

For me, there's too many questions that I'd want answered before going about the project - I don't think its all that humane to stick two different species together, breed them, and hope for the best.  Not my cup of tea.

But back on topic, congrats on successfully producing the cross and I hope the babies stay healthy and live long, happy lives.

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## smilin-buddha

> I have a great solution to this whole "I like hybrids" versus "creating hybrids is a sin against Mother Earth and causes global warming" argument.
> 
> I call it "Hybrid Offsets".  For as many hybrids as you produce, breed that many pure bloods.  Preferably morphs


Taken care of that this year.
One Clutch Carpalls
one Clutch Boas
2 clutches Ball Pythons
1.4 pastels and 6 normals and one cute spotted one.

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## Nicole N

I should state that some hybrids ARE fertile.

While mules are not, the wholphin is documented as capable of producing young with dolphins.  There are some found in the wild, and recently a wholphin in captivity birthed a baby  :Smile: 

I know it isn't largely impacting the entire "hybridizing is a sin against nature" argument but I jus thought I should point out it isn't true anymore that young are always sterile.

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## bait4snake

> Taken care of that this year.
> One Clutch Carpalls
> one Clutch Boas
> 2 clutches Ball Pythons
> 1.4 pastels and 6 normals and one cute spotted one.


HAHA, right on!

See purists, everything is ok.  He has attoned for his sins.

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## Ginevive

Now we have to wonder.. what would Spiders, Pastels, etc. bred to JCP produce? I wonder if half of them would be Pastelly and half (roughly) "normal" in their BP characteristics?

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## qiksilver

I think they look interesting, although I'm not particularly pro-hybrid myself.  The problem I have with it though is in the responsibility of the humans involved.  If documented and done responsibly I think hybrids do have their place no matter what the species.  But when things happen like someone brought up corn snakes, or even king snakes, where you don't know what's what, or buffalo, where they're trying to bring back the herds, but they're having a lot of difficulty finding pure buffalo in all the cow/buffalo crosses, that's where I have problems with it.  Not even so much the cornsnakes though, as long as they're kept captive, and not let go.  But I don't think the very different from the normal looking hybrid balls are a problem, because they're so distinct even if the breeder was to not be responsible, then it would stick out like a sore thumb as not a normal ball.  I don't see a huge moral difference between inbreeding your morphs, to outcrossing to other species.  Both are horribly unnatural, and I find it hard to swallow that you'll get up on your soap boxes and speak against the horrors of unnatural hybrids while all the while breeding unnatural morphs that will probably be so genetically unhealthy and deficient (i.e. some dog breeds) that we'll start running into some ridiculous health problems. 

And speaking of dogs, that's an inbreeding problem, not an outcrossing problem.  Maybe if they were outcrossed we could over time get rid of some of the ridiculous health problems from centuries of excessive inbreeding.

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## West Coast Jungle

I think the snakes look cool! I am very curious to see how healthy, what behavior (carpet or ball) and what the demand is for these animals. It's not something I would do but I don't see it as horrific. As far as breeding designer morphs, you are only increasing the gene pool so you should have healthier animals long term. Hybrids are different species that may or may not be compatable so health and behavior concerns are very realistic. If the animals thrive I think it's fine, but you won't know untill you try it. Someone has to play mad scientist. I hope they work out and the animals are happy, healthy and don't have an idenity problem. LOL.

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## SarahMB

> Now we have to wonder.. what would Spiders, Pastels, etc. bred to JCP produce? I wonder if half of them would be Pastelly and half (roughly) "normal" in their BP characteristics?


I'm wondering that myself! Personally, I think it's a beautiful snake, and I'm glad this was brought up so I could see the pics. 

I have very few morals to worry about keeping up with, though    :Very Happy:

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## bait4snake

I say breed these things to a BallXBlood  :Wink: 

Then breed that to a BallXAngolan!

At least it would still be 50% Ball in the end, lol.

This is so funny to me...

ooooooooooo, think about a Ball X Green Tree!!!!!!

Sorry... too much coffee.  I enjoy stirring the pot a little more  :Very Happy:

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## SiscoReptiles

I think the snake is interesting looking.. BUT.. many of you are overlooking the most critical issue with hybrids.

Smilin-buddha breeds his ball python and carpet python to see if it's possible and to make some quick cash, and he sells them honestly as what they are.. a hybrid.

Smilin-buddha sells a male hybrid ball/carpet to John Doe, who raises it and breeds it to his female ball python and it reproduces. Some of the hybrids look more "ball pythonish" and are sold honestly as hybrids.

The people who bought these ballxcarpet X ball python get bored (and possibly tired of anti-hybrid people) and put them up for sale. They don't sell very well because even though they look like a ball, they are known to be hybrids and many people are not interested. Perhaps years later one person sells his to the local petshop as a ball python.

My friend happens into a petshop and finds a nice large adult female ball python that looks a little different, perhaps some odd trait. He buys it to breed or perhaps he is hard up for cash some day and offers me an "adult female ball python" and I buy it to help him out and because I can always use another adult female..

Now I could have a hybrid in my breeding colony that is not a pure ball, but I may no idea..

You see.. this is the issue people have with hybrids.

Now, this is my opinion. We are all entitled an opinion. Keep in mind, I am not for or against hybrids so please do not flood me with negative feedback merely because you may not agree with my statements. If you do not agree, please 'discuss it' since that is the reason for this forum.

Rick

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## MarkS

> I think the snake is interesting looking.. BUT.. many of you are overlooking the most critical issue with hybrids.
> 
> Smilin-buddha breeds his ball python and carpet python to see if it's possible and to make some quick cash, and he sells them honestly as what they are.. a hybrid.
> 
> Smilin-buddha sells a male hybrid ball/carpet to John Doe, who raises it and breeds it to his female ball python and it reproduces. Some of the hybrids look more "ball pythonish" and are sold honestly as hybrids.
> 
> The people who bought these ballxcarpet X ball python get bored (and possibly tired of anti-hybrid people) and put them up for sale. They don't sell very well because even though they look like a ball, they are known to be hybrids and many people are not interested. Perhaps years later one person sells his to the local petshop as a ball python.
> 
> My friend happens into a petshop and finds a nice large adult female ball python that looks a little different, perhaps some odd trait. He buys it to breed or perhaps he is hard up for cash some day and offers me an "adult female ball python" and I buy it to help him out and because I can always use another adult female..
> ...





*BINGO!!!!!!!!*  Finally someone gets it...........  This already HAS happened to me.  A number of years ago I was in a pet shop and saw a pair of Northern pine snakes.  They looked slightly different then usual, not much different , just a little more colorful, and I thought they were interesting.  So I bought them and raised them up.  Then I bred them and when the babies hatched, they were all over the place in looks. One hatchling looked just like a bullsnake, one looked just like a pine snake and the others were somewhere in between.  The largest baby was at least twice the size of the smallest and the patterns were a mishmash of this and that.  THEN it was very apparent that my original breeders were actually pine snake/bull snake hybrids.  I had just spent 2-3 years getting them up to breeding size just to produce snakes that did not breed true. 

This WILL happen to ball pythons as well.  I also wouldn't mind hybrids if you could always tell which ones are hybrids and which ones aren't.  Unfortunatly it's not always possible to do this on looks alone.  

Mark

I'm thinking about changing my name to 'somebody'

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## Rapture

> Not to start a hybrid discussion, but my personal feelings go something like this. When thinking about a hybrid project, I'd ask myself a few questions; 
> 
> Will the resulting offspring be healthy?
> 
> If they have major deformities, will their quality of life be affected?
> 
> What extra care would be required if they do, in fact, require it as a result of the hybridization?
> 
> How does the cross affect its captive care requirements? Will I have the resources to identify and meet these needs?
> ...


Not to start an argument or anything, but aren't those almost the exact same questions you have to ask yourself when breeding pure species as well?

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## smilin-buddha

> Smilin-buddha breeds his ball python and carpet python to see if it's possible and to make some quick cash, and he sells them honestly as what they are.. a hybrid.
>  Now, this is my opinion. We are all entitled an opinion. Keep in mind, I am not for or against hybrids so please do not flood me with negative feedback merely because you may not agree with my statements. If you do not agree, please 'discuss it' since that is the reason for this forum.
> 
> Rick


Something I guess that strikes me as wrong in this is the term "QUICK CASH". I started with a Irian Jaya four years ago. I raised that snake in the best possible conditions. I did not power feed her to shorten the time and risk her health or shorten her life. I had this planned out for years. I tried last year and lost all ten hatchlings at the last moment full term in the egg. I decided to try it again this year. I planned all year what I was going to do. I fed her so she would be ready I fed the male enough so he was healthy but not fat. I bred the snakes. I checked all the eggs and watched over them like a mother hen. Just like you would do for any snake. I am sure in that time I could have bought a Male albino bred him to a bunch of import females and raised those hets up. Than bred all the hets back to the father and made much more cash. 
I appreciate your opinions. But we as an industry have to do what is best for the snakes and ourselves. I could lie about the fact that this snake or that is het. You plan that the animal is het and than find out it is just a normal. Same amount of effort and no results. I could chip them and be as careful as possible. But if a poor business man wants to make money they will do it with whatever they can not just hybrids.

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## West Coast Jungle

> Something I guess that strikes me as wrong in this is the term "QUICK CASH". I started with a Irian Jaya four years ago. I raised that snake in the best possible conditions. I did not power feed her to shorten the time and risk her health or shorten her life. I had this planned out for years. I tried last year and lost all ten hatchlings at the last moment full term in the egg. I decided to try it again this year. I planned all year what I was going to do. I fed her so she would be ready I fed the male enough so he was healthy but not fat. I bred the snakes. I checked all the eggs and watched over them like a mother hen. Just like you would do for any snake. I am sure in that time I could have bought a Male albino bred him to a bunch of import females and raised those hets up. Than bred all the hets back to the father and made much more cash. 
> I appreciate your opinions. But we as an industry have to do what is best for the snakes and ourselves. I could lie about the fact that this snake or that is het. You plan that the animal is het and than find out it is just a normal. Same amount of effort and no results. I could chip them and be as careful as possible. But if a poor business man wants to make money they will do it with whatever they can not just hybrids.


My  first thought is why would you do it for money? who knows if there is even a market for them? I would love to know how they do. I wouldn't do it cuz I wouldn't want to deal with an unhealthy  or unpredictable snakes, but they are your snakes to do what you wish, as long as you are a responsible snake owner i don't see the problem. best of luck with them and keep us updated. Congrats with the new babies!  :Sunny:

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## SiscoReptiles

> Something I guess that strikes me as wrong in this is the term "QUICK CASH".


That wasn't exactly intended as a personal attack, but it was my opinion. I will however respond to your statement.. Read below...




> I planned all year what I was going to do.


A year is required as a bare minimum to cycle, bred, incubate and hatch a ball python or carpet python. You can do it no quicker unless you buy pre-cycled snakes.




> I am sure in that time I could have bought a Male albino bred him to a bunch of import females and raised those hets up. Than bred all the hets back to the father and made much more cash.


I am sure that "in that time" you decided and planned to breed your carpet to your ball python (1 year) that you could not buy an adult male albino that was cycled and breed him to a several imported females (who generally don't breed until the have been cycled for a couple seasons) and then wait a few years for the female hets to grow up to breeding size and then cycle/breed them. I am also sure the initial investment would have been more..




> I appreciate your opinions, BUT..


My opinion of 'quick cash' was that you have a carpet python worth a few hundred and a ball python worth as much, and then you breed them with one years planning and try to sell the hybrid hatchlings for a few grand instead of a few hundred... but that is just my opinion.




> But we as an industry have to do what is best for the snakes and ourselves.


We as an industry need to do what is best for the snakes... I agree, but I don't see how breeding a hybrid and asking a huge price is what is best for the snakes.. I do see how that is best for yourself.

Again, my reply was not intended as a personal attack. I do not know you, so I have no reason to personally attack you. I just called it as I saw it. Let's not take this into that direction.

Rick

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## smilin-buddha

I respect your choice not to like them and your opinion. I especially like your work with Tegus. Sometimes things said just strike people wrong. If you are going to Daytona drop by see the snakes I will buy you a beer and we can meet. I am not in this for the money just my love of the animals. And I bred them to try something different. I hadn't posted here or on several other forums due to the backlash I thought there would be.

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## SiscoReptiles

The snakes are interesting and I have no issues with hybrids, just what can happen down the road. If every breeder microchipped hybrids as you stated, I would think less people would have an issue with them.

I do plan on being at Daytona this season and I may look you up and take you up on that offer. Good luck with the carpet/balls.

Rick

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## smilin-buddha

You are on I will be in the forties. I am next to Doug Beard and sharing a table with Jerry Conway and Tom Keogan. You are welcome. I will also have a few pastels on display. Todd

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## smilin-buddha

Male

Female

Another female

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## SarahMB

> If every breeder microchipped hybrids as you stated, I would think less people would have an issue with them.


Personally, I think a better solution would be a national registry for balls. I really don't understand why one doesn't already exist.

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## qiksilver

> Personally, I think a better solution would be a national registry for balls. I really don't understand why one doesn't already exist.


this would also be great for the genetic health of ball pythons in general.  Like a stud book, but not as rigorous.

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## SiscoReptiles

> Personally, I think a better solution would be a national registry for balls. I really don't understand why one doesn't already exist.


A registry is too easy to manipulate.

Example..

Joe is a registered ball breeder and a member of the registery.

He gets a clutch of balls that hatched and registered each one.

Later Joe is hard up for money and be buys someone elses clutch of balls and registers them as his own so he can resell them for more. Perhaps they were hybrids.

Or.. perhaps Jerry registers as a member of the registry and Jerry doesn't even breed balls, but we dont know it. He claims to have 14 clutches of normals or hets this season, but later we find out they were all imports.

It's a great idea. I had given it thought years ago, but it's too easy to manipulate.

Rick

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## SarahMB

> A registry is too easy to manipulate.


Isn't the whole point of a registry that the blood lines have to be proven, and they give you a stronger legal leg to stand on agains breeder fraud?

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## jhall1468

> A registry is too easy to manipulate.
> 
> Example..
> 
> Joe is a registered ball breeder and a member of the registery.
> 
> He gets a clutch of balls that hatched and registered each one.
> 
> Later Joe is hard up for money and be buys someone elses clutch of balls and registers them as his own so he can resell them for more. Perhaps they were hybrids.
> ...


There are a ton of animal registries in the world, with Horses and Canine's being the largest. No they aren't "easy" to manipulate by any means. If there's no "checking" involved, than it isn't a registry. It's a list of people selling animals and we are to take them at their word.

Buy from a quality breeder, and you won't have such issues. Anyone with a great deal of experience with any single animal is going to be able to tell when there's mixed blood. Stud hunters and dog breeders do it all the time.

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## SiscoReptiles

Sadly, it is indeed easy to manipulate most registrys, such as the AKC. If a registered breeder 'claims' the litter of pups came from his AKC registered Sire and AKC registered Dame.. That is all that is required for that breeder to register that litter of pups.

I agree that if you buy from a breeder with a good reputation and you will have less chance of getting taken advantage of, but the whole idea of a registry to keep track of pure ball pythons still comes down to a system of trust.

How do you prove the 5 puppys you just registered is from the two dogs that you have registered? You can't.

Let's say I run a registery for ball pythons and you have two snakes registered with me. You have a clutch of eggs and they hatch. How do you prove to me that the hatchlings are from those two snakes?

Rick

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## jhall1468

> How do you prove the 5 puppys you just registered is from the two dogs that you have registered? You can't.


By that logic we should all be really mad about hets. The simple fact of the matter is... there is no such thing as a full-proof system. People cheat, lie, steal, and do anything else they can to make a free buck. So, in the mean time, so why not argue for the banning of Albinos, Piebalds and Clowns? With a hybrid, at least there's going to be SOME sign of genetic abnormality there... no such luck with hets.

Once again buying from reputable breeders will make it a non-issue. Do you think Kara/Kevin, Ralph or Greg are going to allow a genetic hybrid in their collections without knowing it? Even smaller breeders like Adam and Sean? If there's anything a person should learn in this industry, it's that expectations are rarely valid and reputation means everything.

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## SiscoReptiles

> By that logic we should all be really mad about hets. The simple fact of the matter is... there is no such thing as a full-proof system. People cheat, lie, steal, and do anything else they can to make a free buck. So, in the mean time, so why not argue for the banning of Albinos, Piebalds and Clowns? With a hybrid, at least there's going to be SOME sign of genetic abnormality there... no such luck with hets.
> 
> Once again buying from reputable breeders will make it a non-issue. Do you think Kara/Kevin, Ralph or Greg are going to allow a genetic hybrid in their collections without knowing it? Even smaller breeders like Adam and Sean? If there's anything a person should learn in this industry, it's that expectations are rarely valid and reputation means everything.


In reply to this recent post.. Now you're just muttering jumbled babble. The point is a ball python het for albino, is still a pure ball python. It's plain and simple. 

The other point I made was that registrys, such as the AKC, are flawed and work on an honor system. It is fact, though you claimed it's not. Read my statements and ask any AKC breeder and they will tell you exactly what I did. Any breeder with two AKC registered animals can register any litter as their own with no requirement to show proof.

Lastly, I never said anything about Kara/Kev, Ralph, Greg, Adam or Sean or any other breeder here, so I have no damn idea what you are babbling about. Go take a horse pill and relax man.

Rick

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## AndrewGeibel

I think this whole argument is pointless. Either the person has the moral capacity to claim what he or she has or doesn't have or they don't. I don't see any problems with crossing different snakes as long as the breeder and buyer both know what they are getting into. The problem is that some people are not responsible with what they produce. If only people were allintelligent and were conscience about the decisions they were making and how they affect other people and animals everything would be better.

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## sw204me

I think that is prolly the coolest looking of all the morphs for BP's. Well done. What you charging for those, usually when I see a new breed of a snake they are like $30,000-$60,000+ ?


Also, can you breed these to normals and get more or do you have to do some crazy breeding to get more?

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## sweety314

> In reply to this recent post.. Now you're just muttering jumbled babble. The point is a ball python het for albino, is still a pure ball python. It's plain and simple. 
> 
> The other point I made was that registrys, such as the AKC, are flawed and work on an honor system. It is fact, though you claimed it's not. Read my statements and ask any AKC breeder and they will tell you exactly what I did. Any breeder with two AKC registered animals can register any litter as their own with no requirement to show proof.
> 
> Lastly, I never said anything about Kara/Kev, Ralph, Greg, Adam or Sean or any other breeder here, so I have no damn idea what you are babbling about. Go take a horse pill and relax man.
> 
> Rick


Possibly (re: the AKC) but MOST, if not all, mammal registries, you have to provide PICTURE proof of the individual animal as well as breeding certificates for the known dam and sire. It's hard to fudge an AQHA, or APHA/ApHA registry application b/c the pictures have to be submitted for the foal. I can see where it would be a little more difficult for balls *can be done, but more work* due to mult. hatchlings and animals aren't as varied visually (in some cases). For the AYC (American Yorkshire Club), the litters can all be registered, and you CAN identify individual animals, but you're notching the ears. BUT there's nothing stopping someone from registering a grade gilt, as long as she exhibits the physical characteristics of a Yorshire and has the right notch numbers in her ears.

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## sweety314

> I think this whole argument is pointless. Either the person has the moral capacity to claim what he or she has or doesn't have or they don't. I don't see any problems with crossing different snakes as long as the breeder and buyer both know what they are getting into. The problem is that some people are not responsible with what they produce. If only people were allintelligent and were conscience about the decisions they were making and how they affect other people and animals everything would be better.


True, but what about 3 or 4 owners in the future who try to breed, not realising that this twice-crossed-back is a hybrid??? They may NOT know.....

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## jessie_k_pythons

I am in  Awe. I have loved hybrids ever sence I was a wee little girl. I dont think i will ever be breeding my Costal x jungle cp to my BPs (dont have enough knolage to know what I would be doing... leave that to the pros  :Very Happy:  ) but still your babies are , well Just awesome! congrats on the babies!! 

 :Very Happy:   :Very Happy:   :Very Happy:

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## _BoidFinatic_

> I think that is prolly the coolest looking of all the morphs for BP's. Well done. What you charging for those, usually when I see a new breed of a snake they are like $30,000-$60,000+ ?
> 
> 
> Also, can you breed these to normals and get more or do you have to do some crazy breeding to get more?


If you breed one of these back to a normal BP the resulting offspring will be 75% BP and 25% IJCP. If those are then bred back to an ICJP, then you will be left with 50% BP and 50% IJCP again. This operation is where it gets tricky though since a 75% BP 25% IJCP animal might look enough like a BP to be sold as one. 

These were priced at $6,000, by the way.

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## jhall1468

> In reply to this recent post.. Now you're just muttering jumbled babble. The point is a ball python het for albino, is still a pure ball python. It's plain and simple.


Ah I see. You don't understand the analogy so my point is jumbled babble. Typical...

The point was, reputation is what guides this industry. If you are buying from an unreliable breeder than you may end up with a genetically imperfect ball python. That's your problem, not mine. The same can be said of buying hets "on the cheap", and ending up with three years (or more) of work for nothing. The concept is relatively simple, I apologize you didn't understand.




> The other point I made was that registrys, such as the AKC, are flawed and work on an honor system.


No, not really. You make a wide-ranging claim without any effort to back it up. Registries aren't simply a matter of an honor system. Photo identification is absolutely required, and impure animals are relatively easy to detect by an experienced eye. 




> It is fact, though you claimed it's not.


A fact is something that is irrefutable. Did your claim come with a signifigant amount of information supporting it? Nope. You said it's "relatively easy" and I disagree with you. You made the claim that it is easy, the burden of proof is on you.




> Read my statements and ask any AKC breeder and they will tell you exactly what I did. Any breeder with two AKC registered animals can register any litter as their own with no requirement to show proof.


Yes, and if a person is caught cheating the registry they are suspended from it. That is a nightmare for any purebred breeder. Which is exactly WHY it doesn't occur as often as you seem to think.




> Lastly, I never said anything about Kara/Kev, Ralph, Greg, Adam or Sean or any other breeder here, so I have no damn idea what you are babbling about. Go take a horse pill and relax man.


Actually, you implied breeders would get an impure ball in their collection "by accident" and I was curious if you thought any of the reputable breeders would do that. Seems as though when you're called out on anything you jump on the defensive. Perhaps you should take your own advice in the last sentence  :Cool: .

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## SiscoReptiles

> Ah I see. You don't understand the analogy so my point is jumbled babble. Typical...


I understood your babbling, but is it just that babbling.. You are trying to make a point about hybrids, which was already resolved. If a breeder wants to breed a hybrid, they can.. and if you clean the sleepies out of your eyes you would see that I stated that I was not for or against hybrids. I went on to explain HOW someone can end up with a hybrid in your collection. Learn to read a bit. This part of your discussion is mute.. thus you are just babbling on after the discussion was already resolved.

As far as registrys, Not all of them require a photo as proof.. and those that do, rely on the honesty of the breeder to submit the photo of his pups. Sure, if he gets caught cheating the system he will be suspended, but that was not my point.

My point is that if John breeds pure lined poodles and his dogs are registered and then if Jerry has pure, or at least pure looking poodles, he could sell the litter to his buddy John, who could take photos of each one and register the litter as his own. Now if you don't understand that.. I can not explain any more clearly. It is that simple.. the registrys may require proof (photos, notched ears, etc) but who in hell do you think is responsible for making this proof? The owner/breeder. So it does work as an honor system based on trust with the breeders.

Let's put it this simple..

If Joe shows you a picture of an albino and a normal ball python, his male albino and his female normal.. and he sells you a 100% het albino... even if he shows you a picture of a snake and claims it's a het albino.. He can not PROVE *that snake* is a het albino. That could have been an import he just got.

My point was that there is no way to show proof unless you trust the breeder. Thus a registry is easy to manipulate if someone is dishonest.

Buying from a respected breeder is indeed the way to go, and I never, ever said otherwise. So either you are misreading or you are just trolling. So wipe the sleepies from your eyes, because I am not gonna bite.

Rick

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## Atonyblue

If you are looking to do something that will insure the lines. It needs to start with the professional breeders. I have a couple of breadies that are going to start breeding. In the BD world, Fire and Ice dragons (quality breeders) are starting a pedigree program. This allows you to trace your dragons line to avoid inbreeding and heritage. One of the most famous bd breeders was chris allen reds. High quality red dragons now that he has gotten out of the business alot of his breeding dragons are spread around and advertised as Male Chris Allen Red then whatever the name is. We as collectors know his dragons by names, but who is to say that I didn't get a red dragon that is somewhere connected down the line to one of his. It is a shame that only dogs and cats get the treatment that all animals deserve. I think getting a pedigree system would work to the advantage of collectors and breeders of all high quality animals. Just a thought though.

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## jhall1468

> I understood your babbling, but is it just that babbling..


Was that intended as a question? No it wasn't babbling, I wasn't making a point that apparently you had some difficulty following  :Smile: .




> You are trying to make a point about hybrids, which was already resolved. If a breeder wants to breed a hybrid, they can.. and if you clean the sleepies out of your eyes you would see that I stated that I was not for or against hybrids.


Yes, and I could claim I'm against drinking and than spout on and on about the merits of it. Think anyone is going to believe my original statement? Truly, if we all get to breed hybrids and every one is hunky dory with that, this entire discussion is pointless. However, I don't believe anyone appointed you leader of the discussion, so... I'll go ahead and make my point anyway, if that's alright with you.




> I went on to explain HOW someone can end up with a hybrid in your collection. Learn to read a bit. This part of your discussion is mute.. thus you are just babbling on after the discussion was already resolved.


Yes... you beat that horse into a bloody pulp. I happen to think it's total garbage, because the entire situation relies on dealing with untrustworthy people in the first place. And while you may feel my point is "mute" (it's moot by the way), I disagree. If you're going to argue on and on that it's so easy to get a genetically impure ball python, I'm going to argue that you're wrong  :Smile: .




> As far as registrys, Not all of them require a photo as proof.. and those that do, rely on the honesty of the breeder to submit the photo of his pups. Sure, if he gets caught cheating the system he will be suspended, but that was not my point.


No registries aren't perfect. Nothing is perfect... if you buy an Italian leather sofa, how do you know it's really Italian leather? If you buy a signed Les Paul guitar, how do you know it's really Les Paul's signature? Honestly, you've been whining gloom and doom since you entered the thread and it's becoming a bore. Can the system be beaten? Sure, does that mean your indications that it's "easy" is true? Nope.




> My point is that if John breeds pure lined poodles and his dogs are registered and then if Jerry has pure, or at least pure looking poodles, he could sell the litter to his buddy John, who could take photos of each one and register the litter as his own. Now if you don't understand that.. I can not explain any more clearly. It is that simple.. the registrys may require proof (photos, notched ears, etc) but who in hell do you think is responsible for making this proof? The owner/breeder. So it does work as an honor system based on trust with the breeders.


And you can avoid that entirely by buying from respected breeders in the first place. Prosecution rests.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> If Joe shows you a picture of an albino and a normal ball python, his male albino and his female normal.. and he sells you a 100% het albino... even if he shows you a picture of a snake and claims it's a het albino.. He can not PROVE *that snake* is a het albino. That could have been an import he just got.


Funny, when I made a similar analogy it was babble... now you use it. Make up your mind already.




> My point was that there is no way to show proof unless you trust the breeder. Thus a registry is easy to manipulate if someone is dishonest.


So is the entire industry! Do you get it now?... Here let me make this really simple for you:

NOTHING is guaranteed whether it's a hybrid or a het. We all know that, but you've really beaten this hybrid thing to death. The entire industry is based on reputation, so your entire point is kind of redundant. 




> Buying from a respected breeder is indeed the way to go, and I never, ever said otherwise. So either you are misreading or you are just trolling. So wipe the sleepies from your eyes, because I am not gonna bite.


I've been awake for some time, thanks  :Smile: . I'm just trying to understand what your point was. Personally, I'm not sure what your posts brought to the thread at all. If, after 3 pages, the above paragraph was your entire point, might I suggest it be a lot easier just to say that and move on?

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## sw204me

Can't wait to see these bad boys in Daytona, best looking BP out there imo.

P.S. Your alls post have cliff notes anywhere?   :sploosh:

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## Mendel's Balls

To the person that posted this as feedback....

"So your going to tell me Indian's were genetic engineers and made corn?"

Yes, Native Americans (or Indian*s*") were sort of crude genetic engineers.  Corn is not a natural plant....it was created by artificial selection of the teosinte plant. This is very well documented.

Agriculture in many ways hurts biodiversity.   The trick I believe is to be responsible ecological managers and stewards to protect and sustain civilization for future generations.  We can must science, technology, and reasoned ethics in order to accomplish this!

I am by no means saying that unatural things are always good for the environment and/or human health...I am totally against the use of antibiotics in  livestock.   We should protect our the money, hard work, and research that goes into producing new antibiotics by reversing them for human diseases.  Farming and cattle rancher lobbies and many vets 
fight this idea tooth and nail.  

I am just saying that instead of basing what is good for the environment or health on a false "natural" vs "unnatural" dichotomy  try basing it on real science instead.  There isn't much science that shows GM crops or livestock is any worse for you or the environment.   Does that mean in every case a GM crop will be harmless? No....there might be some cost...

but careful research and cost/benefit analysis will provide us with the answers not new age ideology on what is natural or "ecological"

Try reading this.......http://www.nyas.org/publications/upd...sp?updateID=58

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## SiscoReptiles

> I'm going to argue that you're wrong .


It seems arguing is all you want to do.




> No registries aren't perfect.


Exactly. I have explained how any registered breeder can bring in impure animals into the registry as pure. You don't show me how you think that the registries stop that, but instead.. as pointed out above by yourself.. you just want to argue that I am wrong.




> And you can avoid that entirely by buying from respected breeders in the first place. Funny, when I made a similar analogy it was babble... now you use it. Make up your mind already.


I am pretty sure I stated that before you began your self-proclaimed "argument".




> NOTHING is guaranteed whether it's a hybrid or a het. We all know that, but you've really beaten this hybrid thing to death. The entire industry is based on reputation, so your entire point is kind of redundant.


I'd say my point, that registries are flawed, easy to manipulate and will not be a 100% way of keeping track of hybrids, is not redundant. I would state that you arguing that registries require proof and are not easy to manipulate is pretty well diluted by your own logic that "Nothing is guaranteed".




> Personally, I'm not sure what your posts brought to the thread at all.


I think my posts were my part of a discussion, and I am sure you will attempt to 'argue' this, but this is a discussion forum. I held a discussion with the breeder of the snakes that were originally the topic of the discussion until you went on your tangent. I posted my thoughts and opinions. Based on the comments and reputation I was left, I would say many agree with me. The whole topic was resolved before you showed up with your argumentative demeanor.

As stated, the hybrid issue was posted, read and resolved before you even got into it. To accuse me of dragging this out and beating it to a bloody pulp is like blaming a fish for jumping onto a trolling line. Pull in your line Mr Fisherman and stop trolling.

To everyone else reading this.. I apologize for wasting your time, as well as mine, getting dragged into this with jhall. Obviously he gets that the registry systems are flawed, yet still wants to argue that they are not (while admitting they are). At this point I am done with his game, but I do hope that you read the posts prior to jhall and I getting stuck in this loop and glean some useful information. You do not need to agree or disagree.. but hopefully you come out with a better understanding about why some people have such a strong issue with hybrids.

Personally I look forward to meeting smilin-buddha and checking out these animals.. Ok, ok.. and I look forward to the beer also. See you in Daytona.

Rick

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## jhall1468

> Exactly. I have explained how any registered breeder can bring in impure animals into the registry as pure. You don't show me how you think that the registries stop that, but instead.. as pointed out above by yourself.. you just want to argue that I am wrong.




Yes, I believe you're wrong. You make it sound as if a registry is pointless because they are so "easily" cheated and I think you are dead wrong. And yes, I think your original point was so incredibly moot, this whole issue has become useless. You are making an argument about hybrids that is no different than an argument about ANY animal, whether it be a morph, hybrid, het or anything else.

So yes... I think you are wrong about the ease of cheating registries (and as proof, look at the success of AKC), and I think your entire point is moot because it applies to everything in the industry.




> I am pretty sure I stated that before you began your self-proclaimed "argument".


Then you should have left it at that and we would have agreed.




> I'd say my point, that registries are flawed, easy to manipulate and will not be a 100% way of keeping track of hybrids, is not redundant. I would state that you arguing that registries require proof and are not easy to manipulate is pretty well diluted by your own logic that "Nothing is guaranteed".


I never agreed that they are "easy" to manipulate. They aren't. It's possible, sure, but not easy by any stretch. So, perhaps, a class on logical conclusion might do you some good.




> Obviously he gets that the registry systems are flawed, yet still wants to argue that they are not (while admitting they are).


Typical... you'll notice I never once said they were flawless. I was arguing that they aren't as flawed as you indicate they are. If you can't manage to understand the difference, there's nothing else I can do.

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## SiscoReptiles

> I was arguing that they aren't as flawed as you indicate they are.


Requirements to Register a Litter with the AKC

https://www.akc.org/litters/support/...quirements.cfm

As you will see.. Anyone who has two breed specific (ie. Poodles) registered with the AKC can register ANY litter of Poodles (pure lines or not) with the AKC by merely using the registration numbers for the two registered Poodles they have. It doesn't get much EASIER than that.

Now if you wish to "prove" me wrong, go for it. Show me how the AKC would stop someone from doing exactly what I described above!

Below are quotes... Not in my words...

"ABC televisions program 20/20 investigated the AKC, which aired on Sept. 23rd, 1994. Their cameras exposed the horrors of US puppy mills and called into question the validity of the entire AKC registry. The lack of rules and safeguards against cheating makes AKC papers completely worthless."

"ABC reporter Tom Jarril was told by one former AKC investigator that she examined hundreds of AKC violations wherein dogs were misidentified and claims about them were unsupported by breeders records, but said she could rarely convince her superiors to cancel registrations. Another AKC investigator said that pushing registrations through is a priority at the AKC because it keeps money flowing in."

"In its April 1995 issue, the US version of "Readers' Digest" in an article "What Have We Done to Man's Best Friend?", joined "20/20" and "Time Magazine" in their condemnation of the AKC."

Enjoy.. 

Rick

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