# Site General > Pet Related Laws & Legislation >  More snakes to join Burmese python on restricted list

## Bluebonnet Herp

> On Friday, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Director Dan Ashe is expected to announce new restrictions on the popular boa constrictor and four other large exotic constrictor snakes, making it illegal to import or sell them across state lines. The move comes three years after federal officials enacted the same ban on the Burmese, the voracious, fast-growing snake that got loose in South Florida and quickly gobbled its way across the Everglades.


http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e12723206.html

 :Rage:

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## bcr229

Figures they'd get the word before the official announcement tomorrow.

Damn.

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## bigt0006

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

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## artgecko

So..... Now I'll be committing a felony if we ever move out of state and I want to take my BCA and BCI with me..... and I'll never be able to get a cool boa from an out of state breeder (so much for you junglow and tarahumara dreams). :/ 

This is outrageous... Just wait... Ball pythons will be next on the list.

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## reptileexperts

I literally don't want to live in America anymore if this holds true. What have we become. A nation where money talks from lobbyist and scientific knowledge falls on deaf ears which were paid to be such?

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anicatgirl (03-05-2015),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-06-2015),Gio (03-07-2015)

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## anicatgirl

> I literally don't want to live in America anymore if this holds true. What have we become. A nation where money talks from lobbyist and scientific knowledge falls on deaf ears which were paid to be such?


Yup. My thoughts. Anyone living in a country happily accepting new herp loving residents?

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## Daigga

This is terrible and devastating news to the hobby... Isn't there anything we can do about this? Does this have to be voted on, or is this just going straight through?

So many people are about to get a huge chunk taken out of their livelihoods, this is just beyond awful...

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> This is terrible and devastating news to the hobby... Isn't there anything we can do about this? Does this have to be voted on, or is this just going straight through?
> 
> So many people are about to get a huge chunk taken out of their livelihoods, this is just beyond awful...


This is not something new that popped out of no where.

Back in 2012 9 species were originally proposed in the "Constrictor Rule", only 4 were listed but the rest were being "reviewed", during that time USARK was actively trying to fight this, the last deadline for comments was in July last year.

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*bcr229* (03-06-2015),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-06-2015),Gio (03-07-2015)

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## nightrainfalls

what it was like to live in a free country?  I do and the memory haunts me.  When I was young I could go sledding at the hill behind my small towns Village Hall.  Now it is illegal.  $200.00 fine for a first offense.  I used to be able to own any gun I wanted.  I used to be able to own any snake I wanted.  I used to be able to make decisions about my health care.  It seems that ever since the 1990's, freedom has been disappearing in this country.

I am so tired of saying goodbye to my freedom one right at a time.



David

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## bcr229

> This is terrible and devastating news to the hobby... Isn't there anything we can do about this? Does this have to be voted on, or is this just going straight through?


This is a chance to the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR's) which hold the weight of law.  Congress gave each individual agency the authority to create its own regulations, which hold the weight of law.

Supporting USARK in its lawsuit is one way you can help, as they are going after the prohibition on interstate transport.  The suit is ongoing in the federal court system, and it will be neither cheap nor fast to litigate.

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## Daniel.michelle

Remember when it was up to the individual states?  I guess if a snake does too much damage in the everglades, it can do just as much damage in say, frozen Michigan.  Obviously that cannot happen, but sadly congress doesn't know that, or care...  they would rather ban something (for the whole country, when at most there are problems in only 1 or 2 states.) that they don't know about or understand rather than actually come up with a sollution...

Lol let's get together and ban the most destructive invasive species in the world, humans!  Jkjk, but seriously.

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_Darkbird_ (03-07-2015)

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## A_Kap

Has anyone else heard about this?  More snakes including the retic and boa constrictor may be added to the ban that currently prohibits the interstate sale of anacondas and burmese/african rock pythons.  Do you guys think this will happen?  I believe that these bans are a complete over reaction.  The invasive reptile issue is a Florida problem.  So why destroy so many businesses by impacting the entire nation?  I live in PA where temps during winter may frequently reach below 0.  There is NO WAY a scenario similar to Florida's could ever happen here! So what's the point!!? Now many people who live in PA can't get burms or condas online and those who own them can't bring them out of state.  Think of all the educational programs for schools or other events which involve large constrictors that travel across America.  Then there are some supporters of the ban who are using the freak occurrences of large snakes harming and even killing people as an argument.  While these are tragedies in their own right- they are still like I said; freak occurences.  Dogs kill more people annually but why don't we here about that? Because it doesn't make as good of a story.  It doesn't have that shock factor.  Another reason to support the ban is that the snakes pose as dangerous invasive species that threaten native wildlife.  While this is true, many other common household pets like cats and ferrets are responsible for wiping out many local wildlife populations in different areas.  So I ask you, what is your opinion on the new ban?  I think that it may happen but certain species like the boa constrictor won't be included simply due to its popularity as a pet and in chain pet stores like petco.  And if boas and retics are gone, who's next?  Today its retics and boas, tommorow its leopard geckos and anoles.  There may be dark days ahead

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> So I ask you, what is your opinion on the new ban? I think that it may happen but certain species like the boa constrictor won't be included simply due to its popularity as a pet and in chain pet stores like petco. And if boas and retics are gone, who's next? Today its retics and boas, tommorow its leopard geckos and anoles. There may be dark days ahead


it's happening, as I previously posted those species were originally part of the "constrictor rule" but only 4 species remained listed out of 9 while the rest were being evaluated.

What's next? Everything, many do not remember but years ago, a bill HR669 was proposed to ban ALL exotics pets, of course at the time everyone fought this from snake owners to bird owners, ferret owners and other exotic animal owners, the bill was defeated so instead of targeting a wide group the government decided to divide and conquer which sadly they did going after large constrictors.

People need to keep in mind that ASPCA and PETA who are lobbyng for this believe that no animals should be owned as a pet, how do you accomplish that? By targeting what most people will not care about and slowly move own to the next animal.

What's next? A lawsuit and a lawsuit against the government is not gonna be easy but this is the only chance we have, so join, donate to USARK and tell others about USARK and tell them to join as well.

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ballpythonluvr (03-06-2015),*bcr229* (03-06-2015),Daniel.michelle (03-06-2015),_Darkbird_ (03-07-2015),Gio (03-07-2015),JLC (03-06-2015),_minguss_ (03-08-2015)

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## jclaiborne

> Remember when it was up to the individual states? I guess if a snake does too much damage in the everglades, it can do just as much damage in say, frozen Michigan. Obviously that cannot happen, but sadly congress doesn't know that, or care... they would rather ban something (for the whole country, when at most there are problems in only 1 or 2 states.) that they don't know about or understand rather than actually come up with a sollution...
> 
> Lol let's get together and ban the most destructive invasive species in the world, humans! Jkjk, but seriously.



Agreed, before long they will start targeting the large lizards too!  That being said I won't be willing to give up my pets so if I ever move I guess that makes me a criminal.  Oh well.

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anicatgirl (03-06-2015),Daniel.michelle (03-06-2015),nightrainfalls (03-06-2015)

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## Yamitaifu

> So..... Now I'll be committing a felony if we ever move out of state and I want to take my BCA and BCI with me..... and I'll never be able to get a cool boa from an out of state breeder (so much for you junglow and tarahumara dreams). :/ 
> 
> This is outrageous... Just wait... Ball pythons will be next on the list.


by boa they mean _Boa constrictor constrictor._ I'm no expert in boas by any means, but i believe that BCA ad BCI are fine as long as they arent the species _Boa constrictor constrictor_

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## ajmreptiles

_B. c. imperator -_ Colombian boa, Central American boa, Common  boa (Note: These are often called "Red-tailed boas" but they do not get  as large or come from the same countries as _B. c. constrictor. B. c. imperator_ are by far the most common boas kept as pets. Nearly all morph boas are _B. c. imperator_.)B.c. amarali - Short-tailed boaB. c. constrictor - Red-tailed boaB. c. longicauda - Long-tailed boaB. c. nebulosus or nebulosa - Clouded boaB. c. occidentalis - Argentine boaB. c. orophias -St. Lucian boaB. c. ortonii - Orton's boaB. c. sabogae - Pearl Island boa, Panamanian Island boa
They will all be included with the BCC

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## Daniel.michelle

You just gotta love that 1% of people who own big snakes who saw this cute little $20 snake more monitor lizard get is and in a few hours say "now what?" and release it.  what I personally think should happen is: if you are in a state where invasives are an issue, you have to get a 5-10 year permit to keep them and go through a small class (to weed out the idiot keepers) then you are allowed to keep and sell whatever you want.  And keep the rest of the state's free.  Obviously that won't happen and there would be so many loopholes.  This whole thing is gonna be the "20s alcohol prohibition" of reptiles.

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xyzpdq75 (03-06-2015)

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## nightrainfalls

I don't see anything on USARK's Page

Anyone know what happened?

David

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## ajmreptiles

> You just gotta love that 1% of people who own big snakes who saw this cute little $20 snake more monitor lizard get is and in a few hours say "now what?" and release it.  what I personally think should happen is: if you are in a state where invasives are an issue, you have to get a 5-10 year permit to keep them and go through a small class (to weed out the idiot keepers) then you are allowed to keep and sell whatever you want.  And keep the rest of the state's free.  Obviously that won't happen and there would be so many loopholes.  This whole thing is gonna be the "20s alcohol prohibition" of reptiles.


Florida had dealt with that issue, requiring you to have a permit and to have the snake micro chipped and if they found the snake in the wild you faced some hefty fines





> I don't see anything on USARK's Page
> 
> Anyone know what happened?


the USFWS is to make the announcement any moment now

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## ajmreptiles

> Dan Ashe just announced that Reticulated pythons and three anacondas  will be listed as injurious under the Lacey Act. This is unacceptable  and extreme overreach by FWS. USARK will release an email newsletter  with our future actions ASAP.


Its offical, no news yet as to how long the leeway will be

but looks like boas are safe for now

Edit: the link to the USFWS announcement http://www.fws.gov/verobeach/InvasiveSpecies.html

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nightrainfalls (03-06-2015),ZiggysMom (03-14-2015)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> I don't see anything on USARK's Page
> 
> Anyone know what happened?
> 
> David


What happened is the constrictor rule in 2012, again this is not something new, they added species that were originally left out to be reviewed.

Here are some FAQ since some people seems to be in the dark http://usark.org/2014-blog/constrictor-rule-1/

Most importantly

http://usark.org/membership-signup/

http://usark.org/reptile-defense-fund-2/

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nightrainfalls (03-06-2015),ZiggysMom (03-14-2015)

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## bcr229

Following opportunities for public comment, an economic analysis and an environmental assessment, the Service produced the final rule, which is expected to publish in the Federal Register March 10. The prohibitions in the rule will go into effect 30 days after publication and apply to live individuals, gametes, viable eggs or hybrids of the four snakes.

So, the cutoff date for the affected species is April 9, 2015.

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## Bluebonnet Herp

> So, the cutoff date for the affected species is April 9, 2015.


Right in the middle of laying and hatching season with bad weather to boot.

Thankfully, boa constrictors were removed from consideration. (boa constrictors includes every single subspecies, by the way.)

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## reptileexperts

Goodbye retics  :Sad:

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## Marrissa

Ugh. I'm so mad. I want a super dwarf retic someday. And I'd better be sure I never have to move states after that, and good luck finding what I want within state. I really hope with USARK we can eventually get this whole thing overturned.

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## nightrainfalls

> What happened is the constrictor rule in 2012, again this is not something new, they added species that were originally left out to be reviewed.
> 
> Here are some FAQ since some people seems to be in the dark http://usark.org/2014-blog/constrictor-rule-1/
> 
> Most importantly
> 
> http://usark.org/membership-signup/
> 
> http://usark.org/reptile-defense-fund-2/


Dear Deborah,

I know about the 2012 ban and the species review, I was wondering what happened at the announcement?

Specifically which species were banned form interstate commerce and which weren't.

Thanks,

David

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## reptileexperts

> Dear Deborah,
> 
> I know about the 2012 ban and the species review, I was wondering what happened at the announcement?
> 
> Specifically which species were banned form interstate commerce and which weren't.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> David


http://www.fws.gov/verobeach/InvasiveSpecies.html 

Boas were spared - Retics and All Anaconda were not

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nightrainfalls (03-06-2015)

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## Bluebonnet Herp

HSUS blatantly lies in their blog today about the listing. Call them out on it!
http://blog.humanesociety.org/wayne/...ng-snakes.html

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## A_Kap

I was all set to order a dwarf retic online.  Now I don't know if I still want to since I wont even be able to move it out of PA.  I feel like purchasing a few more ball pythons which might be next on the list of "invasive species". This ban is so depressing.  It just ruined my entire day.

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## bcr229

> I was all set to order a dwarf retic online.  Now I don't know if I still want to since I wont even be able to move it out of PA.


If you want to that badly then do it, a lot of collections are being sold for a pittance right now.  PA is a decent sized state so rehoming it shouldn't be difficult if you do have to move.

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## A_Kap

> If you want to that badly then do it, a lot of collections are being sold for a pittance right now.  PA is a decent sized state so rehoming it shouldn't be difficult if you do have to move.


 that's true.  Idk, at least my boa is safe, for now. I wouldn't be suprised if in a few months boas will be up for re-evaluation.  At least we have big name pet stores like petco to encourage the denial of boas to the snake ban

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## Bluebonnet Herp

> that's true.  Idk, at least my boa is safe, for now. I wouldn't be suprised if in a few months boas will be up for re-evaluation.  At least we have big name pet stores like petco to encourage the denial of boas to the snake ban


They won't. The rule was finalized so USFWS has no more plans to change it. The only time anything else gets added is if there's another proposition written by another d-bag politician. I suspect tegus and monitors would at least be their next target if environmental, misanthropic, and animal rights lobbying continues.

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## Daniel.michelle

Welcome to america, where freedom means we have to do what rich white men say about everything, including things that they have no knowledge of.  "I don't know what that is, lets just ban it so I don't have to learn."

7/10 too much water.  (If you get that reference, good for you)

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## Craigaria

My wife found this.  It looks like they are leaving boas of the list  :Smile: 

[IMG][/IMG]

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## Sauzo

Yeah from reading it tonight, it looks like retics and anacondas are the only ones to get added to the ban hammer. Boas are safe for whatever that's worth for how long. It's blanket laws like this that really burn me. I live her in Washington state and there is no way an Anaconda is going to adapt and "spread" to cold Washington state weather... and definitely not to colder east coast states. if the powers that be are going to make these laws, at least make put a little thought into them and make them make sense..../rant off.

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## A_Kap

Isn't it amazing how the small event of a couple of idiots releasing unwanted snakes into the wild can impact the entire nation?  It just blows me away.

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## Sauzo

Well its not just idiots releasing snakes. Its also due to hurricanes and storms. I was watching a show on the pythons in Florida and stuff and they said Katrina wrecked a lot of reptile facilities which allowed hundreds of little snakes to escape. I personally think the amount of damage a storm or hurricane does to how many reptile breeding facilities and freeing tons of little babies is more damaging that the release of a few pets. But yes the idiots did add fuel to the fire regardless. They needed to just have the law applied per state and not just a blanket but I guess its much easier and faster and cheaper to just throw it as a blanket law. So I guess i'll probably never get a sweet purple retic or dwarf retic or anything fancy as I live in Washington State and I'm sure breeders up her are slim pickings.

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## Jhill001

Congrats to the US Government for enacting a law 20 years too late. I don't think anyone disagrees that large constrictors are bad for the local environment's fauna. They obviously are and will continue to be. If they didn't want this to be an issue they should have done this years ago. But they are already there and the environment of the Everglades means they will be impossible to eradicate. So who cares if someone lets go a pet retic. There are already tens or hundred of thousands in the wild already. Literally nothing is done here. Not one solid tangable benefit is gained. 

Should we be surprised from a gov't that hasn't accomplished anything meaningful since the Clinton Administration.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> At least we have big name pet stores like petco to encourage the denial of boas to the snake ban


Petco could not careless their business does not revolve around the snake or even reptile industry and would continue to do just fine if it disappeared, also keep in mind that they make sizable donations to the HSUS each year.



> Isn't it amazing how the small event of a couple of idiots releasing unwanted snakes into the wild can impact the entire nation?  It just blows me away.


And it's amazing that people still believe the issue in Florida is due to "idiot" releasing their pets.




> So who cares if someone lets go a pet retic. There are already tens or hundred of thousands in the wild already.


There are no retics in the everglades there are burmese pythons and certainly not "tens or hundred of thousands" that what they hope people will believe.

For anyone wanting some good read based on REAL science there is a ton to be found here on this subject http://vpi.com/publications

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_Alicia_ (03-07-2015),_Darkbird_ (03-07-2015),Gio (03-07-2015),_Shann_ (03-07-2015)

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## Gio

> Congrats to the US Government for enacting a law 20 years too late. I don't think anyone disagrees that large constrictors are bad for the local environment's fauna. They obviously are and will continue to be. If they didn't want this to be an issue they should have done this years ago. But they are already there and the environment of the Everglades means they will be impossible to eradicate. So who cares if someone lets go a pet retic. There are already tens or hundred of thousands in the wild already. Literally nothing is done here. Not one solid tangable benefit is gained. 
> 
> Should we be surprised from a gov't that hasn't accomplished anything meaningful since the Clinton Administration.


I'd like to see the true number of what snakes are REALLY in the Everglades, which is obviously not possible. I find it funny how the "experts" make it sound like every Burm, Rock or Retic is a full grown 12+ foot animal. The truth is, even in their natural habitats large, adult snakes are more of the exception and not the rule.

Very few snakes in the wild, and to some extent, even in captivity, survive birth/hatch to adulthood. There are plenty of predators that feed on reptiles in the Everglades. King snakes, Indigo snakes, birds, gators, CATS, DOMESTIC CATS not to mention the wild species, and a host of other animals. Climate, pollution and disease wipe out animals all of the time. The wild is not an easy place to survive/thrive.

Any large adult snake that survives to become an apex predator is truly a bad ass and rather rare. It is not something that happens with every snake. However the TV shows would lead you to believe, if a snake lays 20-30 or more eggs, EVERY one hatches and they ALL grow to 20 foot adults. That is pure BS.

It's interesting how irrigation practices, development and pollution have had huge consequences in the Everglades for years, yet the focus is on constrictors, and this focus has somehow become a "national crisis". 

All you need is a dramatic voice inflection, some scary music and a show on the idiot box (TV) and you can make anything look like a disaster waiting to happen. Snakes are an easy target, they always have been. I remember the same thing with pit bulls and it continues to this day despite the fact they are a wonderful breed of dog and it's been proven. 

Sensationalized hype wins again though.

The "people" have a really small voice. It's sad because there are many, highly educated, enthusiastic, professional and responsible folks that pay the price for no good reason.

The law is not 20 years too late, it's not even necessary, and has nothing to do with the Everglades in states where these animals would die off instantly in the winter or fall.

 Responsible keepers panic when their power goes out because their captive collection is at risk of dying, and these are well cared for animals. Anybody who thinks these snakes stand a chance in cool climates needs to take a course in biology.

This "law" is a typical shotgun solution to a small problem that could be handled in other ways. Sadly, it is only one of many. Our municipal laws/ordinances will attack what the federal law leaves "open".

I really feel bad for the great breeders, that have dedicated years and years of their time and effort to producing healthy animals, and tapping into projects that have brought spectacular colors, traits and educational info to the hobby. Also, the enthusiasts who love and care for their pets responsibly. 

For some folks, this decision is a total destruction of their livelihood which is just flat out wrong.

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nightrainfalls (03-07-2015),_Reinz_ (03-07-2015)

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## John1982

> There are already tens or hundred of thousands in the wild already.


A couple years ago Florida advertised the bejesus out of a big snake hunt in the everglades. Managed to attract some 1600 "hunters" from across the country to come tramp through the everglades for an entire month with cash prizes awarded to largest amount and largest sized captures. 

Over 1500 people stomping around the glades for a full month, motivated by money, and you know how many burmese pythons they caught? [sarcasm]A whopping 68! [/sarcasm]

These animals have been living in South Florida for well over 20 years and they haven't even made it to the northern part of the state. It simply gets too cold for them. This doesn't stop the fear mongering asshats from flat out lying to get these animals listed as "injurious" and out the door.

**edited to point out sarcasm**

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## Gio

> A couple years ago Florida advertised the bejesus out of a big snake hunt in the everglades. Managed to attract some 1600 "hunters" from across the country to come tramp through the everglades for an entire month with cash prizes awarded to largest amount and largest sized captures. 
> 
> Over 1500 people stomping around the glades for a full month, motivated by money, and you know how many burmese pythons they caught? [sarcasm]A whopping 68! [/sarcasm]
> 
> These animals have been living in South Florida for well over 20 years and they haven't even made it to the northern part of the state. It simply gets too cold for them. This doesn't stop the fear mongering asshats from flat out lying to get these animals listed as "injurious" and out the door.
> 
> **edited to point out sarcasm**


This is great! I wonder how many of those 1500 were tossing beer bottles and trash into the Glades LOL!

I have this mental picture of the "good ole snake hunt" and its probably the same picture a lot of us see.

"The hunt" probably disrupted, polluted and damaged the Glades more on the first day, than any "invasive species" has done in 10 years.

Another super idea!

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## Sauzo

Well to play devils advocate, you do all realize snakes are masters of concealment. They don't hear the way mammals do you but they can feel ground vibrations from a LONG ways away. So I'm sure they "heard" the masses of drunk cash mongering snake hunters coming from a mile away and just buried down in the grasses. Not to mention, imagine how flighty a baby is going to be out in the wild. They aren't going to be that nice docile laid back "pet". They are going to the butt boogeying staying alive little baby of the wilds. While I do think the shows overblow it a lot, I imagine a lot did get loose during the hurricanes and while probably half or less survived, those that did and got to a decent size would have a lot less predators to worry about. The only real predator I can think of for a 6ft+ constrictor in the Everglades would be a gator and man of course. Oh well, the government is great at throwing on bandaids. Shame it hurts so many people, me included as I live in Washington state where no large constrictor could survive anything outdoors past around our 2 month summers.

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## A_Kap

> Petco could not careless their business does not revolve around the snake or even reptile industry and would continue to do just fine if it disappeared, also keep in mind that they make sizable donations to the HSUS each year.
> And it's amazing that people still believe the issue in Florida is due to "idiot" releasing their pets.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> There are no retics in the everglades there are burmese pythons and certainly not "tens or hundred of thousands" that what they hope people will believe.
> 
> For anyone wanting some good read based on REAL science there is a ton to be found here on this subject http://vpi.com/publications


From what I understand, the boa was kept off the ban because
widespread private ownership and domestic breeding, render importation and interstate transport prohibitions less effective.  Meaning that due to the popularity of boas in pet stores, it has become much more common across America than say an anaconda or a retic.  All I was saying was that if those snakes were more common in pet stores some of those snakes might not have been banned.  I know petco doesn't care.  I know they're all about the money.  That's why I like to encourage people to go to local reptile shows or purchase from breeders.

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## Gio

> Well to play devils advocate, you do all realize snakes are masters of concealment. They don't hear the way mammals do you but they can feel ground vibrations from a LONG ways away. So I'm sure they "heard" the masses of drunk cash mongering snake hunters coming from a mile away and just buried down in the grasses. Not to mention, imagine how flighty a baby is going to be out in the wild. They aren't going to be that nice docile laid back "pet". They are going to the butt boogeying staying alive little baby of the wilds. While I do think the shows overblow it a lot, I imagine a lot did get loose during the hurricanes and while probably half or less survived, those that did and got to a decent size would have a lot less predators to worry about. The only real predator I can think of for a 6ft+ constrictor in the Everglades would be a gator and man of course. Oh well, the government is great at throwing on bandaids. Shame it hurts so many people, me included as I live in Washington state where no large constrictor could survive anything outdoors past around our 2 month summers.



Well, this sounds good in theory, being masters of concealment, but there are boa farms in South America that harvest wild caught animals and the pet trade has severely impacted their numbers in the wild. The same goes for the royal python. Harvesting wild caught animals has by some accounts endangered their numbers and the captive production of royals has actually been a positive step in keeping the wild population numbers from dwindling further. That info was from one of Mark O'Shea's publications.

The rattle snake "harvests" practiced in some southern states has severely reduced the numbers in their natural habitat.

So even with the secretive lives snakes lead, there is plenty that a determined group of 15-16 thousand can do over a month's time to find ALL of these "giants" cough,,, cough that are "taking over" the glades. 

The fact that they haven't been pulling giant pythons out of the Everglades in large numbers, isn't because they can't find them, it's because the false data that was spread as to the TRUE number was just that,, FLASE.

And further more a 6 foot snake actually does have predators. They can make an easy target after a meal, or when they are cold.

Don't forget the reason people worry about hungry rats around snakes that aren't hungry.

Anyhow, that is a bit off topic, but the new restrictions serve no purpose at all other than what Reptile Experts mentioned in the Giant Python forum.

Lots of $$ for fanatical groups like HSUS and PETA to give and lobby their favorite political agendas.

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KingObeat (03-08-2015)

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## Daigga

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. 

Just a thought, but the natural diets of Burms should overlap pretty closely with that of the native alligators. Considering that their diets would likely include each other (burms eating gators and vice versa), I can't imagine a growing burmese python population in the everglades causing any actual ecological damage. The alligator population might shrink some in balance with that of the burms, but the predator/prey relationship in the everglades should mostly remain unchanged otherwise. 

Hell, if burms were allowed to continue their existence in the everglades (and honestly, what makes them more dangerous than alligators?), it may end up being a good thing. Poachers target alligators because their skin and meat have value and the poached variety can't be told apart from the farmed variety; burmese python skin and meat doesn't have hardly any value in the American market and isn't farmed for this reason, so the poaching of the snakes can't be very profitable/popular (fun fact; burms being on the lacey act makes it illegal to sell their skins, meat, or other products just the same as that of the animal itself). They could also turn into quite the tourist trap, just like the alligators themselves, and start bringing in a profit for the state of Florida.

Just my personal thoughts and opinions. I've always been taught to try and make the best out of a bad situation, so I don't see why people in Florida haven't tried. If the people of Florida can learn to love their scaly new inhabitants, maybe the restrictions on all these snakes can be eased or lifted.

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## Nate_Mitchell

So much for my future... :Tears:

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## bcr229

Thankfully the boas were not included in the list, but I expect there will be another effort made in the future to add them based on statements made in: 
http://www.ibtimes.com/lacey-act-sna...lovers-1839762.

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## anicatgirl

https://www.change.org/p/u-s-house-o...-the-lacey-act

https://www.change.org/p/laceys-law-...e-constrictors

Sign these please! It might help it might not but it can't hurt!

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## blue roses

Yes , we can all do something. Go vvote, and i don't mean for all the bleeding heart liberals, who are trying to tell us, what guns we can own, what pets we can own, and how large they can be, or what breed they can't be, or what we must eat or drink, or the health care we must carry. I remember when we were free to live and make our own decisions. I was born in 1950, so i remember what it was like. If you want it that way again, you need to get rid of any polititian who thinks they know whats best for you, and start working for the people who believe that as long as we harm none ,we should be able to do as we will. by the way that is the life rule of the wiccan believers, it actually says harm none , do as ye will. The harm none refurs to every living thing. So think before you vote, and work really hard for those trying to protect our constitution, and the bill of rights. Sorry for the rant, but for the last 8 years i have gotten really angry 

Did you guy ever think of organizing a march on washington, carrying our snakes up to the capital steps. Just think about all the signs saying, the biggest snakes live here.

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anicatgirl (03-08-2015)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

I see petition popping here and there as well as groups and pages for people to voice their opinion, I understand this is meant to do well however the truth is this is beyond signing petitions, petitions will not do anything at this point, the answer is supporting USARK this is the only chance we have to reverse this.

If everyone signing petition would actually join USARK and tell others to join USARK it would accomplish a lot more.

Again 3 important links

http://usark.org/membership-signup/ USARK Membership

http://usark.org/reptile-defense-fund-2/ Reptile Defense Fund

http://usark.org/product/donation-5-increments/ USARK Donations

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*bcr229* (03-08-2015),Daniel.michelle (03-08-2015),Gio (03-08-2015),Lisa Annmarie (03-09-2015),nightrainfalls (03-08-2015)

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## anicatgirl

> Did you guy ever think of organizing a march on washington, carrying our snakes up to the capital steps. Just think about all the signs saying, the biggest snakes live here.


I dunno how well this would help us, but I like this idea.

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## Gio

> I see petition popping here and there as well as groups and pages for people to voice their opinion, I understand this is meant to do well however the truth is this is beyond signing petitions, petitions will not do anything at this point, the answer is supporting USARK this is the only chance we have to reverse this.
> 
> If everyone signing petition would actually join USARK and tell others to join USARK it would accomplish a lot more.
> 
> Again 3 important links
> 
> http://usark.org/membership-signup/ USARK Membership
> 
> http://usark.org/reptile-defense-fund-2/ Reptile Defense Fund
> ...



NICE EASY LINKS!!!


Joined and Donated.

Who's next?

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Stewart_Reptiles (03-08-2015)

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## Albert Clark

> Thankfully the boas were not included in the list, but I expect there will be another effort made in the future to add them based on statements made in: 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/lacey-act-sna...lovers-1839762.


Thanks bcr229, anicatgirl for those links to support usark and to petition and donate for change. We all need to stick together to eradicate this "lacey act" legislation. It is ridiculous to blame the reptile community for the invasive problem in Fla. Ever since the 1920's there have been hurricaines and tropical storms in Fla. that are the true causes of this problem. People died, houses and properties destroyed, possessions both material and otherwise including pets domestic and exotic. Isn't the natural disaster the true cause of the problem. We are being made the scapegoat and it's truly unfair. I second the motion to take this to the capitol. Where do I sign?   Already committed to USARK, let's get some dates on the table for WashingtonDC.       :Good Job:

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Gio (03-08-2015)

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## Rinne

This is really frustrating, and I want to know why the hell these people care when are are obviously uneducated on the subject. As many others have pointed out, even in the opening article, this is a problem for South Florida, not anywhere else. This is not how you deal with the problem - and besides, the damage is already done. I wish there was more we could do about it. This really hurts snake breeders too because it's not like it's a really high income thing anyway, now if you can't sell across state lines, that's really gonna hurt their business. What happened in Florida is already done, what do these people think they're preventing now?

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## bcr229

> This is really frustrating, and I want to know why the hell these people care when are are obviously uneducated on the subject.


You have to remember that this has been backed primarily by animal rights groups and HSUS.  Their goal is not environmental protection, it is the abolition of keeping exotic species as pets.  Several have stated that the goal is to completely abolish pet ownership, keeping companion animals, use of any animals by the entertainment industry, any use by the military and law-enforcement, etc.

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Gio (03-09-2015),ZiggysMom (03-14-2015)

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## Gio

> You have to remember that this has been backed primarily by animal rights groups and HSUS.  Their goal is not environmental protection, it is the abolition of keeping exotic species as pets.  Several have stated that the goal is to completely abolish pet ownership, keeping companion animals, use of any animals by the entertainment industry, any use by the military and law-enforcement, etc.


BINGO!

All those sad, sad commercials you see with the haunting music showing abused animals, you know what I'm talking about.

That's how they get their money and donations, a tug on the heart strings. People think they are helping animals, but really, they are funding a lobby group/groups that are in favor of kill shelters, nice term. Kill, followed by shelter, but that's what they do, they don't "save" animals.

They do not have you, or your pet's best interest in mind.

A boatload of money goes to the people/places that influence votes, and not our votes. You never saw a survey, or public hearing on any of this did you?


Don't get me wrong, I love reptiles, but things like this are just a little piece of a larger and more grim picture.


If you think these people give two craps about the Everglades, think again. They'll divert water flow and lift some environmental restriction tomorrow if it benefits some large company or land deal. 

Pythons destroying the Everglades? How about more than a half century of piss poor irrigation practices and land development deals?

Yeah,,, its the snakes LOL!

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*bcr229* (03-09-2015),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-09-2015),Lisa Annmarie (03-09-2015),_Marrissa_ (03-10-2015),Shawnee (04-15-2015)

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## 8_Ball

> You have to remember that this has been backed primarily by animal rights groups and HSUS.  Their goal is not environmental protection, it is the abolition of keeping exotic species as pets.  Several have stated that the goal is to completely abolish pet ownership, keeping companion animals, use of any animals by the entertainment industry, any use by the military and law-enforcement, etc.


I was browsing PETA's website and a lot is just plain nonsense.  I could say I was the only person in my group of friends who liked animals and was a little of a "environmentalist" and saving the earths animals, blah blah blah.  But you have to be realistic.  I do *NOT* support taking animals from the wild and selling wild caught animals in poor conditions and wiping out wild populations.  I do *not* support hunting endangered animals, killing animals for clothes, and so on just like PETA.  But to take some collections from the wild and promote captive breeding like the ball python, bearded dragon, leopard gecko etc. is _very different_ in my opinion.  In a way these animals are almost "domesticated" if a bird or a hamster can be called "domesticated".  Snakes tolerate people and thrive in captivity just like a parakeet or a chinchilla.  Heck, Ive seen posts that ball pythons and other reptiles are being bred for temperament as well and it proving out.  I think the government should be cracking down on things like puppy mills and wholesaling wild caught animals to pet shops and not responsible breeders and pet keepers.  I've received stitches from a hamster and bird before but I have not even been hissed /struck at once by my ball python.  My snake tolerates me more then my dogs do.  I feel like I can predict my snakes next move and trust him more then most animals.  It angers me that these laws are passed by people in congress who fear snakes themselves with no scientific research even looked at. We need to do something now before our boas and balls are next. Then all reptiles. Then maybe all exotic pets. And eventually it will be our dogs/cats someday.  Sorry for the rant but I am so angered by this all  :Rage:

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## 8_Ball

http://blog.humanesociety.org/wayne/...ng-snakes.html 

Ugh this whole article makes me sick...  :Doh!:

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## Najakeeper

There is one and only solution to end this and similar atrocities like this from the root. Take money out of politics. Otherwise, scientific data will always be undermined via special interest cash.

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Gio (03-11-2015),_Marrissa_ (03-11-2015)

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## Rinne

Although to be honest it's not like a police officer is going to know the differences between snakes, unless you went around advertising it's illegal you probably wouldn't run into any issues selling or bringing them across the entire country.

If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.

Still a retarded law but I doubt it would be heavily enforced.

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## Najakeeper

> Although to be honest it's not like a police officer is going to know the differences between snakes, unless you went around advertising it's illegal you probably wouldn't run into any issues selling or bringing them across the entire country.
> 
> If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.
> 
> Still a retarded law but I doubt it would be heavily enforced.


Lacy Act is very serious and the above statement, albeit made in good intentions, may have unwanted consequences. People have been charged served jail time before for very minor things.

Also, businesses which are large enough and have high stakes, are very very careful with these things. I don't see Prehistoric Pets mislabelling their boxes for example and no business will be able to advertise their animals for out of state buyers. This will effectively kill the industry.

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_ajmreptiles_ (03-12-2015)

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## artgecko

According to some of the big constrictor people, they have seen and heard of packages being opened and checked.  Is is worth it to face up to 5 years in prison and heavy fines?  I'm not so sure....  If you'd like to give it a go, then go ahead.

I best route at this point is to support USARK's lawsuit.  If that fails, then this part of the hobby might have to go black market, which is so unfair and unjust to the keepers and breeders involved.

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## fLako0aGuiiLaR

We should boycott the white house !!😁
let stop this crap!😡😡

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Although to be honest it's not like a police officer is going to know the differences between snakes, unless you went around advertising it's illegal you probably wouldn't run into any issues selling or bringing them across the entire country.
> 
> If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.
> 
> Still a retarded law but I doubt it would be heavily enforced.


People like you are part of what is wrong with this industry, *YOU* make us all look bad and put our ability to be able to ship our animals at risk but I guess you don't care. Do you think that encouraging braking the law whether it is stupid or not will help our cause?

When shipping it is very important to properly label your box but I guess you would not know that , I guess what you would not know either is that random packages are pulled out and inspected by a US fish and wildlife agents (and yes they know the difference between a BP and a Burm or Retic or Anaconda.)

So yeah just do what you preach if making everyone look bad and taking the risk of becoming a felon and get 5 years in jail is not an issue for you by all mean do it because truly this hobby does not need people like you.

Soap box over.

*And BTW now changing over to being a mod before you are encouraging others to break the law.*




> *8. No posts promoting illegal behavior will be tolerated, including but not limited to warez/pirating of copyrighted material, illegal drug or alcohol usage, and illegal ownership or trafficking of species.*

----------

_ajmreptiles_ (03-12-2015),anicatgirl (03-12-2015),*bcr229* (03-12-2015),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-14-2015),_GoingPostal_ (03-15-2015),_HVani_ (03-12-2015),_jclaiborne_ (03-12-2015),_Shann_ (03-12-2015),xyzpdq75 (03-12-2015)

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## MasonC2K

I think you were a bit harsh on them. They didn't say *they* were going to do it. They were not suggesting it be done. They were just pointing out it could be done. Nothing wrong with that IMO. It is realistic view of what may actually happen. Some people will probably do that. 

It's ok to beat up on the idea. But beating up the guy was a bit much I think. 

Just my 2 cents

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> I think you were a bit harsh on them. They didn't say *they* were going to do it. They were not suggesting it be done. They were just pointing out it could be done. Nothing wrong with that IMO. It is realistic view of what may actually happen.


No they didn't say they would, they just suggest others to do so which is even worse, I am not gonna sugar coat things because someone is clueless, or does not care.

If you care about this hobby and have a clue you don't make the statement below.




> If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.

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_jclaiborne_ (03-13-2015)

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## Rinne

Umm.. I realize now, after everyone's reaction and rereading my post how I may have sounded. But it was not my intention to encourage others to do that, nor do it myself. I have shipped reptiles before. Perfectly legal and correctly labeled. I was talking in theory to question how well it could actually be enforced.

My intention was to point out its lack of effectiveness. However, I shouldn't have said that because I did not know as you pointed out that they open boxes to check. Well, I guess I shouldn't try to make a point when I'm uneducated on it.

But I meant it how MasonC2K said it. Realistically people might do that. I'm not encouraging it, and yes if found out these people will hurt our cause. So it's a stupid thing to do.

But say even if you're just moving to one state over and you want to bring your pet with you. You think someone is going to be waiting at the state line asking if you have a burmese or retic?

I'm just saying that people who really want to do it will find loopholes, and questioning how much it might change - I apologize for coming off as encouraging it.

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## KingObeat

Here's what Kevin McCurley from NERDS said:




> ** Taking a Deep Breath Here - Constrictor Rule **
> Our argument against listing Green & Yellow Anacondas as well as Reticulated Pythons is STRONG! This we are sure of, the problem is getting this across in an arena that has the power to change.
> How about, having a strong argument that has facts as ammo but has another element. How about if there was a glaring aspect that was hidden, something that was taken as a given when in fact it was not!
> I can not let the cat out of the bag here but...... there has been something in the works since last year that is incredibly relevant and potent. Let's just say, the right people needed to see this and digest the facts. Now this hidden aspect is coming front and center.
> There is more than a glimmer of hope here, I would love to clarify my cryptic words but that does not help anything and would only take away from the focus we currently are having. There is much going on behind the scenes.
> USARK is on it, they know what to do with it, we MUST support them and believe in them. I have faith, we have THE weapon and now we are getting down to business. It is very simple which is wonderful, this is a rather black and white approach. In fact, I can not imagine how "this" could not turn things..... although I did not imagine luring teenage woman to join ISIS via social media would work either.
> Stand strong, be focused, watch for USARK updates, support USARK and remain positive. When we ask for support, please do your best...... I think we are working on our most effective strategy yet!
> EVILMORPHGOD - Kevin McCurley

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anicatgirl (03-12-2015)

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## Marrissa

Read that on FB earlier. Very interested in eventually finding out what it is. I hope we can push through and at least remove the no crossing state lines part.

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## Bluebonnet Herp

> Although to be honest it's not like a police officer is going to know the differences between snakes, unless you went around advertising it's illegal you probably wouldn't run into any issues selling or bringing them across the entire country.
> 
> If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway.
> 
> Still a retarded law but I doubt it would be heavily enforced.


Isn't this considered conspiracy to break the law or something along those lines? Never condone law breaking, especially on the internet of all places where it is preserved forever in writing. You're essentially self incriminating, and if you end up in court, guess where they're going to have evidence? Right back to this post. Might as well discuss how to smuggle cocaine while you're at it. 
As previously states, USFWS very well has the ability to check packages. If one of your "ball python" packages is checked and it's a burm or a retic, guess who's going to enjoy the next 5 years being locked up in prison?

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## A_Kap

I think all that Rinne was doing was just predicting what a lot of snake owners are going to do because of the ban, and I think it's true.  If I was moving to another state and wanted to take my anaconda or retic with me, who's to stop me from just taking my snakes along for the ride? Will the ban be heavily enforced? No, it's not like they're going to have checkpoints along the road or have a special force team to track down people possessing snakes illegally.  But just because you can, doesn't mean you should.  It is the LAW and it's must be followed.

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## Rinne

> Isn't this considered conspiracy to break the law or something along those lines? Never condone law breaking, especially on the internet of all places where it is preserved forever in writing. You're essentially self incriminating, and if you end up in court, guess where they're going to have evidence? Right back to this post. Might as well discuss how to smuggle cocaine while you're at it. 
> As previously states, USFWS very well has the ability to check packages. If one of your "ball python" packages is checked and it's a burm or a retic, guess who's going to enjoy the next 5 years being locked up in prison?



No it's not because I didn't say I was going to or planning to do that, did I? Did I say, "hey guys you should totally do this"? No I didn't! For the "friendliest online community" you guys sure love to pick on me just because I perhaps did not word it as well as I should have.

As clarified in my second post, *I was merely making a point that some people will probably do this in order to question the effectiveness of this law*. Like I said, I have shipped reptiles before - perfectly legal and correctly labeled.* It was not a suggestion, nor my intention. I don't even OWN any of the snakes on this list*, and the law is not even in effect yet! I am not condoning it, and I can see how maybe you could have taken it that way but again I did not say I was going to do that nor did I encourage anyone to.

Sheesh, you guys act like I said I was going to kill someone. Oh wait, maybe I shouldn't even joke about that or you'll take me seriously then, too. Are all of you this hostile in real life too? Please don't read into my comments so much. I care about this hobby and I can admit it was poorly worded but please read my second post before you treat me like a criminal.



> I think you were a bit harsh on them. They didn't say *they* were going to do it. They were not suggesting it be done. They were just pointing out it could be done. Nothing wrong with that IMO. It is realistic view of what may actually happen. Some people will probably do that. 
> 
> It's ok to beat up on the idea. But beating up the guy was a bit much I think. 
> 
> Just my 2 cents





> I think all that Rinne was doing was just predicting what a lot of snake owners are going to do because of the ban, and I think it's true. If I was moving to another state and wanted to take my anaconda or retic with me, who's to stop me from just taking my snakes along for the ride? Will the ban be heavily enforced? No, it's not like they're going to have checkpoints along the road or have a special force team to track down people possessing snakes illegally. But just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It is the LAW and it's must be followed.


Thank you, yes this is how I meant it. Glad at least 2 people have reading comprehension on this site. People are probably going to do this whether I posted that comment or not - doesn't mean I'm one of them. Again I can see how my first comment could have been taken the wrong way but please at least give me the benefit of the doubt until I clarify, I've never broken the law nor encouraged anyone else to...

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BJK1995 (03-21-2015)

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## Marrissa

Do we have any possible dates on when this lawsuit is going to draw to a conclusion?

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## bcr229

> Do we have any possible dates on when this lawsuit is going to draw to a conclusion?


Federal cases typically take years to completely play out.  I also remember reading that this one has stalled at least once due to a judge change.

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_Marrissa_ (03-16-2015)

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## Marrissa

Hmm and it's a few years in now right? The lawsuit started in 2013? Hopefully only another year or two then. I don't know about anyone else but this has started my retic fever bad. I guess there's nothing like the allure of the banished. I will for sure be breeding SD retic morph combos as soon as we get this interstate travel thing lifted (or at least raising up my future collection of them).

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## Bluebonnet Herp

> No it's not because I didn't say I was going to or planning to do that, did I? Did I say, "hey guys you should totally do this"? No I didn't! For the "friendliest online community" you guys sure love to pick on me just because I perhaps did not word it as well as I should have.
> 
> As clarified in my second post, *I was merely making a point that some people will probably do this in order to question the effectiveness of this law*. Like I said, I have shipped reptiles before - perfectly legal and correctly labeled.* It was not a suggestion, nor my intention. I don't even OWN any of the snakes on this list*, and the law is not even in effect yet! I am not condoning it, and I can see how maybe you could have taken it that way but again I did not say I was going to do that nor did I encourage anyone to.
> 
> Sheesh, you guys act like I said I was going to kill someone. Oh wait, maybe I shouldn't even joke about that or you'll take me seriously then, too. Are all of you this hostile in real life too? Please don't read into my comments so much. I care about this hobby and I can admit it was poorly worded but please read my second post before you treat me like a criminal.


You should go back and read your own post. The way it is written sounds as if it's encouraging an idea; an idea which happens to be a felony. "Poorly written" is an understatement, because it doesn't sound anything like you're "just making a point." It sounds much more like advice for committing a felony. That's just your own wording. 
And poor wording *will* cost you if you ever end up in court.

What does is say about the community here if we were to encourage law-breaking? What would it say about reptile keepers if there's a news headline that says "Reptile breeders faces felony charges after smuggling GIANT PYTHON across the U.S.?" That ends up being demonization of herpetoculture, and the animal rights groups and the media will be all over a story like that like flies on cow manure. And if it links back to a post _giving advice_ or _suggesting an idea_ because your post sure as hell was not written from the aspect of "merely making a point," what does it say about the forum or its users?

Contrary to what you want to believe about your own post, it was not written like it was "merely making a point." Writing "If it's a baby and you want to ship it, just write on the box, say it's a ball python, no one is going to open it and double check anyway" sounds like condoning a felony in english to me, and everyone else who has read this.

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Stewart_Reptiles (03-19-2015)

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## Marrissa

Yes from Kevin McCurley on Retic Nation: 
"** Update 3/19/15 **I am VERY EXCITED right now...... I think we just may have hit GOLD!!!! I have been talking to a LAW FIRM that is willing to get involved in our FIGHT!!!!!!!! He wants to help NERD ... which in turn helps all of us! This means, additional legal minds that can help refine all of our efforts! More legal minds means more angles and a more refined weapon!!! Presently we are overwhelmed, USARK has essentially a few attornies to deal with this ENORMOUS task!! Adding more Attornies and allowing these legal monsters to focus on the details can really help us in a KILLER way! This is no small legal firm or any of that..... this is a firm of LITIGATORS!!!! We may even have a NEW ANGLE to approach!!!!!! I was very impressed talking to this Yale schooled attorney and he is going to look over our case and if everything goes right he is going to HELP USARK and US be even BETTER!!!!! I have so much to say but we may have just got the REAL WEAPON we have been looking for... and a new angle regarding our New Listings!!! GET EXCITED, I AM!!!!!!!!!!! I think we may be able to play with the BIG BOYS AFTER ALL!!!!"

I'm starting to think as long as we are ALL active and loud with our voices and donate what we can, that we can pull through and have this reversed. I wish I was breeding and had hatchlings to donate for the USARK auctions too.

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## BJK1995

I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?

I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.

Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

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## DVirginiana

As an ecologist, I promise you that banning someone in Michigan from taking their retic to Wisconsin has no measurable effect on any ecosystem anywhere.  For that matter, banning someone in Louisiana from taking their retic to Mississippi doesn't have any effect on any ecosystem anywhere.  These snakes can ONLY survive winters in South Florida, meaning that this is solely a South Florida problem.  And by 'creeping further north' how far 'north' are you talking?  Mid-florida?  The fact is these animals cannot survive further north than that.

It's not a matter of 'not listening to scientists' (as a scientist I'm usually hypersensitive  to that sort of mentality) unless you're talking about the herpetological experts who are trying to explain that this is not a problem for forty-nine and a half states.  No one is disputing the fact that invasive species are at least somewhat harmful to everglades ecology, and you don't see this sort of reaction to the laws demanding that people get permits or microchip their animals in South Florida or the hefty fines if your pet escapes there.  
If you want to complain about people not listening to the experts, you picked the wrong side of this discussion.

If you're not vegan you really don't have the right to make such holier-than-thou statements.  I mean, I realize that you probably consume responsibly, but if there's even the remote possibility that your meat came from somewhere in Hawaii where feral hogs are a major issue you should be willing to sacrifice for the greater good (same goes for cattle and egg/poultry farming... these operations are doing irreparable harm to irreplaceable ecosystems globally).
That last bit was sarcasm btw.  I realize that this is ridiculous.  Of course it is logical; these things do much more harm to the environment than people's pet snakes ever will, but no one in their right mind would try and change it because meat consumption isn't a niche market.

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8_Ball (03-21-2015),anicatgirl (03-21-2015),*bcr229* (03-21-2015),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-21-2015),_CrystalRose_ (03-23-2015),_Marrissa_ (03-21-2015),salt (03-21-2015),Stewart_Reptiles (03-21-2015),xyzpdq75 (03-21-2015)

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## salt

The everglades issue is a Florida issue. It shouldn't be a federal issue as these snakes cant live outside that state. Also a lot of the science they've used to determine whether or not these creatures can live farther north is flawed.

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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (04-10-2015),Citrus (04-02-2015)

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## xyzpdq75

> As an ecologist, I promise you that banning someone in Michigan from taking their retic to Wisconsin has no measurable effect on any ecosystem anywhere.  For that matter, banning someone in Louisiana from taking their retic to Mississippi doesn't have any effect on any ecosystem anywhere.  These snakes can ONLY survive winters in South Florida, meaning that this is solely a South Florida problem.  And by 'creeping further north' how far 'north' are you talking?  Mid-florida?  The fact is these animals cannot survive further north than that.
> 
> It's not a matter of 'not listening to scientists' (as a scientist I'm usually hypersensitive  to that sort of mentality) unless you're talking about the herpetological experts who are trying to explain that this is not a problem for forty-nine and a half states.  No one is disputing the fact that invasive species are at least somewhat harmful to everglades ecology, and you don't see this sort of reaction to the laws demanding that people get permits or microchip their animals in South Florida or the hefty fines if your pet escapes there.  
> If you want to complain about people not listening to the experts, you picked the wrong side of this discussion.
> 
> If you're not vegan you really don't have the right to make such holier-than-thou statements.  I mean, I realize that you probably consume responsibly, but if there's even the remote possibility that your meat came from somewhere in Hawaii where feral hogs are a major issue you should be willing to sacrifice for the greater good (same goes for cattle and egg/poultry farming... these operations are doing irreparable harm to irreplaceable ecosystems globally).
> That last bit was sarcasm btw.  I realize that this is ridiculous.  Of course it is logical; these things do much more harm to the environment than people's pet snakes ever will, but no one in their right mind would try and change it because meat consumption isn't a niche market.


this was great, thankyou

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## John1982

> Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative?


You do realize the everglades issue isn't new? You should call up FWC and have a chat with someone about conditional species. There is already a licensing requirement implemented for the state. It's not particularly time consuming or difficult to achieve but it comes with a yearly fee and a requirement to microchip animals so if they're ever found in the wild you will face the consequences. You have to outline a preparedness plan that explains how animals will be secured and stored in the event of a disaster. The plan must include an outline of your facility indicating the locations of animals, equipment, exits routes, etc. You must also include emergency contacts for people qualified to assist in the handling of the animals as well as up to date veterinarian information. The licensing alone took care of any impulse buys from unqualified owners. If you're still not convinced ask FWC to send you the applications and have a look for yourself. 




> The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.


Maybe because our rights are being taken away based on outdated literature, biased "scientific" studies, and utter myths. Please explain to me the greater picture and how adding these snakes to the Lacey Act is going to do anything positive for the state of Florida and it's environment. Have you even read any of the "science" that the "scientific board" has presented that's being used to push these amendments through? It's so absurd I can't decide if I want to laugh or cry when I read some of that crap. It's obvious why they don't want it reviewed by a panel of their peers.

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anicatgirl (03-21-2015),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-21-2015),salt (03-21-2015),Stewart_Reptiles (03-21-2015)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?
> 
> I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.
> 
> Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.


Wow not sure where to start also I know that it's gonna be a waste of keystroke so I will keep it short I wasted enough time reading your post. 

Brandon I remember when I was 19 like you and thought I knew everything, of course you are a biology student and want to save the planet (which is commendable) but while you are seeing A picture you are failing to see the REAL big picture.

People here are well aware that there is an issue in Florida no one has never denied this and solutions have been proposed in the past. The constrictor rule is based on junk science, paper written by so called scientist that are PAID by animals right activist (yes there is a much bigger picture here).Did you know that in one of those papers their modeling was showing that the burmese population could migrate as far north as washington DC  :ROFL:  , YOU call that science?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

Now do you seriously think that banning interstate transportation (not allowing owners to take their pets when they move and becoming felons) will solve the issue in FL? If you do please enlighten us? How does banning interstate transportation solve the everglades issue?

BTW I do not own large constrictors nor do I make a living breeding snakes but I have a good grasp on the issue and what it can mean for the future of reptile keepers (including those keeping BTS, Leos like yourself) and exotic animal owners as a whole.

Oh and for the attitude of people on the forum, if you don't like it.....just don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.

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anicatgirl (03-21-2015),*bcr229* (03-21-2015),_bigt0006_ (03-22-2015),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-23-2015),_Dave Green_ (03-21-2015),Fmx cordova (03-25-2015)

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## 8_Ball

> I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?
> 
> I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.
> 
> Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.


We're selfish??? Your worried about a snake that can only thrive in less than half of one state that's going to "ruin millions of years of nature's work".  Have you seen what humans have done to this planet and continue to do? I'm an Environmental Economics major and let me tell you that banning snakes should be the least of the governments concern right now.  There's one invasive species of animal that is going to over populate the earth and destroy everything nature has ever made in the next couple of hundred years: humans. The government should fix what the human race is doing to this earth before worrying about a silly snake because let me tell you we are doing far worse damage then a burm or retic can.

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frostysBP (03-22-2015)

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## frostysBP

Ok lets hurry and try to save the everglades now that we have destroyed most of it with our concrete jungles....... we as humans are the most invasive thing to this planet... go for a walk in the middle of any forest and look at all the trash you will find. There's a lot more going on in the everglades than the burm population.

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8_Ball (03-22-2015)

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## nightrainfalls

> I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?
> 
> I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.
> 
> Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.


Dear BJK

Thank you for your thoughtful post.  I, and most of the members of this site would like to see the Everglades National Preserve protected.  We truly value the unique ecosystems that exist there.  Unfortunately those ecosystems are under considerable threat, from a dangerous invasive species.  That species is not however the Burmese python, or for that matter any of the pythons or Anacondas on the Lacey Act list.  Human beings are the single largest threat to the preserve.  if you research the history of the Everglades, you will quickly become convinced that the government is not to be trusted with the health or safety of the everglades.  In fact the federal government actually gave the glades to Florida with the requirement that they be destroyed.  Furthermore through the 1930's the federal government systematically assisted Florida in draining most of the glades and converting the vast swamp to farmland.  People built cities on glades land and thousands of exotic species were introduced.  here is a summary  https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/south...s/threats.html  Here is another summary http://www.nrdc.org/water/conservation/qever.asp

You will note that no matter where you look, when you talk to people who know what is going on, and when you talk with wild life managers in the field, urbanization and agriculture, and the water management that comes with those things is what is really destroying the glades.  Most articles talking about the threats to the glades scarcely even discuss pythons, other than a casual mention.  The fact that pollution is pouring into the glades, and life giving water is being choked off and redirected is a larger threat.  The government is not trying to protect the glades with the ban on Pythons. The government is actually responsible for destroying the glades.  The python ban is a response to certain special interest groups interested in destroying the pet trade.

Now right now, I am sure you are shaking your head at what I just wrote.  Do some open minded research and look at the threats to the glades.  You will quickly learn to believe me, because I am telling the truth.

Now please do me a favor.  Go to this study https://usark.org/wp-content/uploads...mpfulltext.pdf Read the study carefully, it is written by scientists who have years of education and have studied the problem.  These are people you can trust.  Now tell me how this study indicates that these snakes are moving incrementally north like you suggested here "but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years."  Read the conclusion of the study were the scientists state "our empirical observation on the effects of the cold weather event... cast doubt that Burmese pythons can become established and persist beyond the southern portion of the Florida peninsula."  This important study lays waste to the idea that Burmese pythons will ever move north.  "What makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing?"  (Sorry to hang you on your own words.)

Now go to this study http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1805/20150120 and read the scientist's conclusions.  Then go to the data, make sure to look in the supplement as well, some of the data is deliberately put in there so the scientists can skew their data.  Now calculate the survival rate of Rabbits in the python infested areas and the survival rate in non python infested areas.  You will be surprised to learn that rabbits are twice as likely to live in python infested areas than in non python infested areas.  Do the math yourself.  If you need help, you can go to this thread and see exactly how the government scientists, who are in the minority, are lying to you. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...erglades-study  Once you have seen this with your own eyes, you will be shocked.  You will put your head in your hands, and be shaken up.  You won't want to believe it.  here is the truth you won't want to believe.  These scientists work for the government. The government wants the wealthy sugar cane industry in Florida.  The government pays the scientist to get certain results, and the scientists do whatever is needed, no matter how dishonest, to get the results.

David

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_bigt0006_ (03-22-2015)

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## Bluebonnet Herp

Lawsuit update!
http://usark.org/2015-blog/lawsuit-u...wsletter-4115/




> *Lawsuit Update*
> USARK has been diligently working on several aspects of our lawsuit regarding the injurious listing of eight species of constrictor snakes under the Lacey Act. As posted earlier, USARK sent a letter to FWS on March 16 requesting an extension of the effective date for the latest listing, which includes Reticulated pythons and Green anacondas. The Reptile Nation was only given 30 days from the federal register publishing of the finalized rule on March 10 before FWS enforces import and interstate transportation bans of the newly-listed species.
> 
> We received a response from FWS denying this extension request yesterday (3/31/15). This was expected and USARK has not simply been waiting around hoping FWS would grant an extension. In their response, FWS showed complete disregard for the majority of our letter.
> 
> Since we were expecting rejection from FWS, our preliminary injunction (PI) simply needed a quick edit to include mention of this denial letter. The PI was filed today (4/1/15) along with a motion for a temporary restraining order (TRO) and proposed order to be signed by Judge Moss granting the TRO and motion for relief (or PI). The TRO will expedite the process. Judge Moss has already scheduled a conference with the attorneys to set a schedule for briefing the motion.
> 
> It would be an understatement to say the USARK complaint and motion for relief are strong. The Reptile Nation could not have a better case or team working on this lawsuit.
> 
> ...

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_Marrissa_ (04-02-2015)

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