# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  worst bug eyes i've ever seen

## hypersomniacjoo

http://fire-ballreptiles.com/images/...terfemale1.JPG

YIKES

thats a good reason to not breed butter to butter!

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_sookieball_ (03-06-2012)

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## satomi325

That is disturbing. 
Also the reason I'm going w/ a lesserxmojo breeding. I wonder if the bug eyes impact vision?

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## jbean7916

I don't see the pic?  :Confused: 

sent from my EVO

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## kklepac

Is this also a problem when breeding lesser x lesser?

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## WarriorPrincess90

Yikes! That poor baby!  :Sad:

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## satomi325

> Is this also a problem when breeding lesser x lesser?


Yes. That's why people tend to cross Butter/LesserxMojave

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## Otolith

> I don't see the pic? 
> 
> sent from my EVO


http://fire-ballreptiles.com/images/...terfemale1.JPG

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## Otolith

Poor little guy. :/ looks uncomfortable.

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## Solarsoldier001

Just curious do they grow into the eyes? If not, is there a way to fix them?  I've never seen that before o_o

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## satomi325

> Just curious do they grow into the eyes? If not, is there a way to fix them?  I've never seen that before o_o


I've never seen an adult w/ bug eyes, but I assume that it's permanent. And there is no way to fix them.
It's a genetic defect that is linked to BELs. 
It's like how Super Cinnys/Super Black Pastels can get duck billed faces.

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## apple2

Also what's up with the tail... Seems like the tip is missing. I really feel bad for that poor snake  :Sad:

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## bad-one

I am curious as to how common bug eyes really are. I've only ever seen a few. Makes you wonder if people cull them or if they really aren't too prevalent.  :Weirdface:

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## ClarkT

I feel bad for the little guy, too, but I have to say...haha, that looks funny--like it's a cartoon surprise face...

I wasn't aware of the bug-eye problem with Lesser x Lesser (Which is the same as saying Butter x Butter, and Lesser x Butter...).

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## Royal Hijinx

At the Pomona show a couple of months ago every Super Lesser I saw was bug eyed and that was probably 4.  None of them were to this degree though.

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## snakesRkewl

We bred Lesser X Butter last season and produced 1.2 BEL's, no bug eye's but one female ended up being blind. 
The other 2 are nice examples of pure white BEL's.

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## RichsBallPythons

What i dont like is selling a bug eyed snake and asking that much for it. Its genetically flawed and not worth market value.

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## crepers86

I'll buy whats the cost. I think it looks kinda of cute actually

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_sookieball_ (03-06-2012)

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## sookieball

He's adorable but price for the genetics is fair.
I think 
But priced because its an abnormality that happens is kinda unfair but legitimate.
I'd still pay market price as long as he could still see and it doesn't affect his well being. 
I've heard of some balls being born like this because they stuck just the tips of their heads out and that resulted in the blood flow (yada yada yada) something something and they grow outta it. But Idk about bels seeing as I have no experience with them YET. 
But hope he is OK. Still wouldn't discourage a buyer just cuz he's a bugga boo. 
:-) but I love them no matter how they come out. 


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

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## Annarose15

> Also what's up with the tail... Seems like the tip is missing.


The tail is just curled back under the substrate.

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## satomi325

> I'll buy whats the cost. I think it looks kinda of cute actually


Over $1k.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

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## RichsBallPythons

This snake is genetically Flawed and will pass on the bug eyes if bred. Why pay 1300$ for a genetically flawed morph when you can get perfect ones no flaws what so ever and breed it.


Regardless if its cute or not, It should not be at market value.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Is bug-eyes tied directly to the Lesser Platinum gene?  If it is, then the snake is not genetically flawed at all.

If bug-eyes is caused by an additional recessive gene that's present in Lesser Platinum lines, you would expect to see normal snakes from Lesser clutches throwing bug-eye offspring as well.

Unless this gene reacts with something in the lesser gene to produce bug eyes--or reacts only when the lesser gene is doubled, to produce this effect.

I think it's HIGHLY premature to call this a genetic flaw, though, until further research is done.  It's like saying the spider wobble is a genetic flaw in spiders--it's not, it's part of the spider gene itself and cannot be bred out.  (You could call the spider gene itself the flaw, but most of us like them anyhow).

So, the question becomes, is the bug-eyes caused by an additional gene reacting to lesser platinum, or the SAME gene as lesser platinum.  It's a crucial difference.

Does the problem cause any actual issues, or it is purely cosmetic?

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_LotsaBalls_ (03-07-2012),_satomi325_ (03-06-2012)

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## Rob

More like awesome bug eyes, if it doesn't effect the snakes vision and he's happy and healthy I say the eyes look cool and unique

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jennmbarker (05-20-2016)

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## RobNJ

> This snake is genetically Flawed and will pass on the bug eyes if bred. Why pay 1300$ for a genetically flawed morph when you can get perfect ones no flaws what so ever and breed it.
> 
> 
> Regardless if its cute or not, It should not be at market value.


Are bug eyes a passable trait, or are they a flaw within the super lesser/butter only? While I understand where you're coming from, I don't understand why this argument presents itself when it comes to bug eyes, kinks, duck bills, yet spider wobbles(a genetic flaw) have sold fine for years.

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## RichsBallPythons

I have seen bug eyes from lesser clutches where normals and lessers had the bug eyes.

To say the bug eyes are acceptable but then a kink isnt dont sound right. Theres kinks out there and dont harm the snakes that will live well. But if someone sells one their completely market way down not kept at top dollar. I would never breed this animal in the likes of producing more bug eyes, The same you wouldnt breed a kinked snake as well

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## filly77

Does mojo x mojo cause bug eyes?

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## RichsBallPythons

mojo x mojo does not, Strictly the butter/lesser gene that does so.

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_filly77_ (03-06-2012),_WarriorPrincess90_ (04-09-2012)

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## satomi325

> Is bug-eyes tied directly to the Lesser Platinum gene?  If it is, then the snake is not genetically flawed at all.
> 
> If bug-eyes is caused by an additional recessive gene that's present in Lesser Platinum lines, you would expect to see normal snakes from Lesser clutches throwing bug-eye offspring as well.
> 
> Unless this gene reacts with something in the lesser gene to produce bug eyes--or reacts only when the lesser gene is doubled, to produce this effect.
> 
> I think it's HIGHLY premature to call this a genetic flaw, though, until further research is done.  It's like saying the spider wobble is a genetic flaw in spiders--it's not, it's part of the spider gene itself and cannot be bred out.  (You could call the spider gene itself the flaw, but most of us like them anyhow).
> 
> So, the question becomes, is the bug-eyes caused by an additional gene reacting to lesser platinum, or the SAME gene as lesser platinum.  It's a crucial difference.
> ...


Good questions.

I would imagine that the bug eyes only occur when the gene is doubled, which is why butterxbutter/lesserxlesser/lesserxbutter's have such a significant turn out... I'm not sure on the percentages, but no body really hears about mojavexmojave getting bug eyes.

I wonder if there are functional issues with the bug eyes as well.
I imagine that the ones up for sale are eating alight, so maybe it's just cosmetic? Either way, ball's don't really need eyesight to survive in captivity. Ben Siegel has an eyeless ball that eats and lives perfectly fine.

That's just my 2cents and opinion.

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## Wonzzer

Show me a photo of a sub-adult or adult ball python with bug eyes.  I am sure they grow into their bug eyes as adults. I have only been breeding for four years, and have never seen an adult with bug eyes.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

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## Annarose15

> This snake is genetically Flawed and will pass on the bug eyes if bred. Why pay 1300$ for a genetically flawed morph when you can get perfect ones no flaws what so ever and breed it.
> 
> 
> Regardless if its cute or not, It should not be at market value.


Of course, the unfortunate catch-22 is that as soon as it gets marked down, someone would buy it and brag about the great deal they got on their new breeder...

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## FIREball

The bug eye is a know problem with the butter x butter cross, or atleast I thought people knew about it. They act normal, eat normal, poop normal, shed normal. You can get normal looking BELs out of the clutches and have a bug eye in the same clutch, similar to super cinnys with the duck bill.

As for another comment the tail is fine, it is tucked under the substrate.

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_Annarose15_ (03-06-2012)

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## Royal Hijinx

I think a good point was brought up.  Are there any bug eyed adults?

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## WingedWolfPsion

> I have seen bug eyes from lesser clutches where normals and lessers had the bug eyes.


So, you're saying that some lesser pairings have produced bug-eyed normals?  This DOES suggest a second, recessive gene is at work, which may be carried in lesser platinum lines.

Can anyone else who has done lesser X lesser or butter X butter pairings confirm that it's not just the BELs that have bug-eyes?

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## adamsky27

> I think a good point was brought up.  Are there any bug eyed adults?


The breeder of that specific animal replied in this post, hopefully he will tell us how it is doing now.

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## Royal Hijinx

> The breeder of that specific animal replied in this post, hopefully he will tell us how it is doing now.


I am sure it is doing well.  I was not asking if they make it to adult hood, rather do they grow in to the eyes and they are not noticeable as an adult.

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## adamsky27

> I am sure it is doing well.  I was not asking if they make it to adult hood, rather do they grow in to the eyes and they are not noticeable as an adult.


That is exactly what I meant...

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## Emilio

> So, you're saying that some lesser pairings have produced bug-eyed normals?  This DOES suggest a second, recessive gene is at work, which may be carried in lesser platinum lines.
> 
> Can anyone else who has done lesser X lesser or butter X butter pairings confirm that it's not just the BELs that have bug-eyes?


While only one clutch so far all my hatchlings came out perfect.

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_adamsky27_ (03-07-2012)

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## TheSnakeEye

> This snake is genetically Flawed and will pass on the bug eyes if bred. Why pay 1300$ for a genetically flawed morph when you can get perfect ones no flaws what so ever and breed it.
> 
> 
> Regardless if its cute or not, It should not be at market value.


Do you have proof to back this up? I'm pretty sure it's hit or miss with the bug eyes.

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## WingedWolfPsion

> While only one clutch so far all my hatchlings came out perfect.


That's evidence too, of course--if it's an additional gene, then not all lessers will carry it, since they're often pretty well outcrossed.

The thing that's odd is how infrequently it's reported, other than in the BEL morphs.  If it were a separate recessive gene, it should be showing up elsewhere, too, by now.

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## Royal Hijinx

Unless it is a gene that only expresses when paired with the Lesser/Butter genes?

I believe there is an issue with this in Lucy Rat snakes as well?

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_Anatopism_ (04-16-2012)

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## Luke Martin

> Does mojo x mojo cause bug eyes?


I haven't seen bug eyes from Mojave x Mojave, but I have seen tiny eyes from Mojave x Mojave.  Also have seen tiny eyes on a Hypo Super Mojave.

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## DooLittle

So butter x mojo should be ok?

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## Emilio

> So butter x mojo should be ok?


So far yes did see a Het-russo x lesser bug eyed BEL in daytona though. :Confused: 

I was surprised to say the least.

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## hypersomniacjoo

i want to see these tiny eyes.

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## eatgoodfood

im curious about the tiny eyes as well, especially since im going to be breeding my super mojo het ghost to my mojo het ghost in the fall

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## WingedWolfPsion

> Unless it is a gene that only expresses when paired with the Lesser/Butter genes?


Rich stated he's seen normals from Lesser X Lesser pairing that had bug eyes, which suggests that bug-eyes does not have to be paired with the Lesser gene to express, and that it's a separate genetic defect.

Can anyone else confirm?  This is rather important...keeping track of bloodlines should allow bug-eyes to be bred out if it is s separate recessive gene.

It's possible Rich uncovered a rare recessive bug-eye gene that is actually not related to the typical lesser BEL bug eye problem, of course, if no one else has ever seen this happen.  If so, then bug-eyed BELs probably don't have a genetic defect (in most cases), they're just expressing an issue with the morph itself.

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## Solarsoldier001

> Rich stated he's seen normals from Lesser X Lesser pairing that had bug eyes, which suggests that bug-eyes does not have to be paired with the Lesser gene to express, and that it's a separate genetic defect.
> 
> Can anyone else confirm?  This is rather important...keeping track of bloodlines should allow bug-eyes to be bred out if it is s separate recessive gene.
> 
> It's possible Rich uncovered a rare recessive bug-eye gene that is actually not related to the typical lesser BEL bug eye problem, of course, if no one else has ever seen this happen.  If so, then bug-eyed BELs probably don't have a genetic defect (in most cases), they're just expressing an issue with the morph itself.


Kinda how spiders have their wobble?

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## MarkS

Personally I think it's like the spider wobble, they all have it to either a greater or lesser degree though many are not really noticeable (unless you compare them to a normal) and they all look better once the snakes head grows.  Granted I haven't seen hundreds of Lucys, but that's just my observation.  The only ones that I've personally seen that didn't seem to have the issue were on Russo white diamonds.

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## Caleyandanthony

> http://fire-ballreptiles.com/images/...terfemale1.JPG
> 
> YIKES
> 
> thats a good reason to not breed butter to butter!


my pastel female has very big bug eyes they look like there gonna pop out of her head and shes almost to breeding size so i can just imagine how big they were when she was alittle baby

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## Solarsoldier001

> my pastel female has very big bug eyes they look like there gonna pop out of her head and shes almost to breeding size so i can just imagine how big they were when she was alittle baby


So does that mean its gotten better over the years?

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> Unless it is a gene that only expresses when paired with the Lesser/Butter genes?
> 
> I believe there is an issue with this in Lucy Rat snakes as well?



Yes, lucy rat snakes have been coming up bug-eyed for years ... I seem to recall seeing some lucy Burms for sale, too, significantly discounted, with eye issues. 

I believe there is some link in snakes between eye development and leucism, but I'm not sure exactly what. 

I've seen a number of homozygous lessers with bug-eyes. I bred lesser x mojo last year specifically to try and avoid the bug-eyed trait. I got 4 BELs, all of whom were healthy and had normal-sized eyes. However, one of my holdbacks has a crossed-eye, which didn't develop until she was ~200 grams. You can kind of appreciate it in this picture -- her left eye (on your right) is canted forward permanently.




I feel as though in the photos I've seen of all-white lesser pieds, their eyes appear smaller than normal. 

I believe that all of these issues are likely no more than aesthetic. I did and will probably continue to avoid lesser x lesser breedings to avoid the bug-eyes, because it is an aesthetic issue and I find it aesthetically displeasing! (Read: I think they look silly!) I wasn't thrilled that my one BEL developed a crossed-eye, and I did debate whether I'll still breed her in the future or keep her purely as a pet. However, she exhibits two other traits that are crucial to me (great personality and excellent appetite -- she's the biggest of my holdbacks), so given that I do believe the problem is intrinsic to BELs, she'll likely go on to reproduce in the future. If a significant proportion of her babies have eye problems, then that'll be the end of that line.

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## Caleyandanthony

Ok but it can't be just in bells cause like I said my pastel female has the big eyes inless I guess it's possible she came from a clutch with lesser and pastel but I am not sure what her background is

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## AJs Snake House

I hatched out a pastel last year that had severely undersized eyes.  She was from pastel x spider pairing...


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## Royal Hijinx

For the undersized eyes, is the it size of the eye or the size of the scales around the eyes?  I remember someone advertising a Puma that had large eye scales and made the eyes look small.

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## Luke Martin

These were taken in Daytona in 2005.
This one isn't as bad as the other that was there, but also had some pretty small eyes.


Paradox Hypo Super Mojave with tiny eyes...

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## don15681

> So butter x mojo should be ok?


 there isnt a known problem if you breed a lesser or a butter to a mojave. mojave to mojave isn't known to cause this problem either. go ahead and breed your butter to your mojave. had a lesser x mojave clutch last year and hit on 2 bel's. normal sizes eyes.

this came up as a topic a few years ago and don't quote me on this but I believe it was kevin who said that they will grow into their eyes.
The member on here who has a pastel with bug eyes. this might not be related to the lesser/butter problem. you don't see too many pastels with bug eyes, but seen many lucys with it.

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## lovepig78

more bug eyes

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## Redneck_Crow

I've got a plain old mojave with buggy eyes.  We call her the Marty Feldman snake.  She was just around 700gms when that pic was taken.

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## satomi325

> I've got a plain old mojave with buggy eyes.  We call her the Marty Feldman snake.  She was just around 700gms when that pic was taken.



Can you get a closer picture of her eyes?  They don't look like bug eyes in the picture.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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## MorphMaster

I've seen super lessers and I have yet to see bug eyes on an adult... My guess is that they grow into them

- - - Updated - - -




> Good questions.
> 
> I would imagine that the bug eyes only occur when the gene is doubled, which is why butterxbutter/lesserxlesser/lesserxbutter's have such a significant turn out... I'm not sure on the percentages, but no body really hears about mojavexmojave getting bug eyes.
> 
> I wonder if there are functional issues with the bug eyes as well.
> I imagine that the ones up for sale are eating alight, so maybe it's just cosmetic? Either way, ball's don't really need eyesight to survive in captivity. Ben Siegel has an eyeless ball that eats and lives perfectly fine.
> 
> That's just my 2cents and opinion.


You're absolutely correct! I have a hatchling super lesser, and he functions just fine

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## Redneck_Crow

> Can you get a closer picture of her eyes?  They don't look like bug eyes in the picture.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I'll try to get one later on, my camera batteries are in the charger.

Her eyes aren't so buggy as they are big for a snake her size.  I'll try to get a pic from the top, they do stick out a little more than the rest of my snakes, but not freakishly so.

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## TessadasExotics

Despite what many people try to say.... There is a ton of line breeding and inbreeding in our industry. It's prevalent in all of the reptile industry. All morphs are genetic flaws. They are all genetic defects. Unwanted physical abnormalities are bound to show up. Some of these defects are probably heightened in particular morphs due to the genes involved in making them what they are. Some can probably be linked as is the Spider and it's wobble.
Albinism has vision issues linked to it so one can fathom that Leucism (which is linked to Albinism) could or would also have eye/vision problems associated with the defect. It does show up in rats as well as balls.
Look at RTB's, you could not breed Albino x Albino back in the day. You would get snakes with one eye, no eyes, stillborn, weak babies and more. I think over the years this has become less prevalent due to the massive outcrossings that started to happen due to these unwanted defects. I think most breeders still will not breed white to white.
It's rather common that you see a breeder selling pairs of ball pythons to people. They are for the majority siblings. Now this person that buys them grows them up and guess what? The breed them together. The babies are then sold and often times are sold in pairs. The cycle keeps going. Not all breeders do this, but allot do.

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