# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics > Is This A Morph? / What Morph Is This? >  Your opinions are greatly appreciated...

## Ratikal

Fire Pastel?

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## John1982

Absolutely not a firefly.

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_Dezoruba_ (12-17-2016)

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## jkerezsi

Not a fire pastel. And get rid of that carpet and those gauges also get a digital thermometer with a hygrometer with a probe if those gauges fall off they will stick to your snake plus they rarely work correctly.


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_Dezoruba_ (12-17-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-29-2016),Zincubus (12-17-2016)

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## Dezoruba

Normal

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## Zincubus

I've nothing against using carpets as they can be swapped and cleaned easily I guess . I'd add some leaves to make it more natural looking maybe .

As mentioned the stick on thermometers are worse than useless for this purpose so maybe as suggested get a couple of those digital ones with a probe off eBay for about 3 dollars each . 

I'd even consider splashing 13 dollars ( again off eBay) for a digital temp gun !!  They're great for taking quick random temperatures off cool spots / warm areas and under hides etc 


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## Ratikal

Just a quarantine tank...the terrarium carpet is used for quicker sanitationa and cleanup. It allows liquid waste to drain underneath so the snake isn't in direct contact unlike newspaper, paper towel, substrate which can absorb liquids.....I do use a heat gun but the "stickys" we're already on there and are actually quite accurate...

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## Ratikal

This is a late 2016 hatchling and his colors are dulled to him actively shedding. He is from a Fire Female x Lesser Pastel Male ...

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skueppers (01-28-2017)

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## Zincubus

> Just a quarantine tank...the terrarium carpet is used for quicker sanitationa and cleanup. It allows liquid waste to drain underneath so the snake isn't in direct contact unlike newspaper, paper towel, substrate which can absorb liquids.....I do use a heat gun but the "stickys" we're already on there and are actually quite accurate...


Fair comments re - being just a quarantine tank , we couldn't have known  :Smile: 

Those stick on thermometers won't tell you the temps on the floor where the snake is lying though , tbh 


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devonascended (12-30-2016)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

This snake needs to be on damp paper towel and not carpet,why? Because this snake has not even had it's first shed.

Hopefully you are experienced in starting un-started BP. That mean providing optimum husbandry by first using damp paper towel and second getting rid of this thermometers this are inaccurate and this is not where you measure temps.


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_Alicia_ (12-17-2016),_Dezoruba_ (12-17-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-29-2016)

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## PythonBabes

> Normal
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


Yeah, that's what it looks to me.

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## Ratikal

Yea...I know stickys are no good but they've been on there and it's just a quarantine tank. I was told this guy was started but it has been a trial by fire...especially since this is my 1st bp in about 10 yrs!

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Yea...I know stickys are no good but they've been on there and it's just a quarantine tank. I was told this guy was started but it has been a trial by fire...especially since this is my 1st bp in about 10 yrs!


It's not it has not even had it's first shed yet so QT tank or not un-started BP have very specific needs and if not met you will have a VERY hard time getting it started. 

Getting a BP out of the egg when it's your first is a bad idea and if you don't listen to advice you will have a very hard time.

Again get rid of the gauges, by a digital one take the temperature at the bottom of the enclosure and provide damp paper towel as substrate.

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_distaff_ (12-29-2016)

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## Ratikal

I use a temp gun and I guess I should've posted a bigger pic of the tank rather than a close up of the snake lol 
The "husbandry" is correct with a higher humidity (70%) level and a cool spot 79 degrees with a 91 degree basking spot and ambient air temp of 86-88 degrees...there are two hides but I removed the one he was under for the pic....
I just had some terrarium carpet and it works great with a tank pad underneath, soaking the carpet to produce a higher humidity. Paper towel and newspaper tend to be a better culture for bacteria and the ink on the newspaper isn't very good either consideringt the look on your fingers if you've read one...just seems more sanitary and easier to clean
I actually saw the whole clutch and both parents, some pretty unique patterns and colors. There were two like this but the other was double his size with a kink 3/4 of the way down and didn't survive...there were 3 others that were close to normal but with mahogany sides and pastel yellow on top. The male I have has a bright pastel yellow sides to head and neck thru his back with a orange blush almost rosy flesh on his sides...I wasn't worried so much about his genes just loved the colors. I do have a question, in your experience, from hatch to 1st shed what kind of average time frame?

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skueppers (01-28-2017)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

Hatclings out of the egg (pre-shed)) need a damp (I am mean soaked) substrate (not dry with high huidity) and paper towel allows that without harboring bacteria like caret so it is the opposite of your thinking. 

Hatch date to first shed you are looking at 10 to 14 days for an healthy animal, animal with issues or sometime the exception may take longer up to several weeks (rare), usually once they shed they get their first meal (live hopper mouse), now if the animal does not shed within 10 to 14 days you need to feed around that time as you cannot wait weeks for it to shed.

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## PitOnTheProwl

I like the flames but not seeing an fire or remote sign of a head stamp at all.
Also no blushing that a quality pastel should have.
Pet, yes. Breeder, no. Sorry

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## Ratikal

I apologize...I didn't get him out of the egg. I did see his whole clutch due to the breeder still having them. He is eating two fresh pinkies every 3-4 days currently. I tried the damp paper towel but he would sit on top of the hides and didn't seem to like it. I would go to set him back on it after cleaning and he would throw himself towards the hide, didn't want to touch ground. He actuallyi s quite active with carpet and it's a quicker cleanup. I thought I read that a higher humidity was better during shed phase for an easier transition out...maybe I was mistaken?!

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## Ratikal

Definitely has a solid head...no stamp! I wasn't so much interested in breeding being that this is my 1st ball in 10 yrs...I just loved the colors lol so yes, he's a beautiful pet. I wish I would've took pics of the clutch. There were two like this, the other didn't make it "Kinked"...there were 3 with a bright pastel yellow around the head and back with mahogany sides almost a deep cinnamon, a couple regular pastels, a couple lesser looking pastels, and 2 that looked like the 3 mahogany but we're lighter with higher whites along the sides...

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> I apologize...I didn't get him out of the egg. I did see his whole clutch due to the breeder still having them. He is eating two fresh pinkies every 3-4 days currently. I tried the damp paper towel but he would sit on top of the hides and didn't seem to like it. I would go to set him back on it after cleaning and he would throw himself towards the hide, didn't want to touch ground. He actuallyi s quite active with carpet and it's a quicker cleanup. I thought I read that a higher humidity was better during shed phase for an easier transition out...maybe I was mistaken?!


This is an animal out of the egg under 14 days which requires a different setup than a BP after their first shed. (unless of course this is an old picture)

How do I know? Because this is the only time in a BP's life that a BP will have a shiny skin, after their first shed their skin will NEVER look like this again.

You also do not feed pinkies to a BP, out of the egg they can take hoppers and move quickly through sizes.

If the BP sits on the top of it's hides this means they do not provide enough security nothing to do with damp paper towel, and if he is active this means the setup is off which re0iforce the first behaviour. Again DAMP PAPER TOWEL at this stage is very important.

This is what should be done to a T except that the aspen should be replaced with DAMP PAPER TOWEL. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101

This is VERY important again this animal has not had his first shed, and is not established and you could set yourself up for FAILURE. 

You have all the info now the ball is in your camp.

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_Dave Green_ (12-17-2016),_distaff_ (12-29-2016),_Eric Alan_ (12-17-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-29-2016)

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## Ratikal

Actually this will be his 2nd shed ...2 reasons why the skin is so shiny, I adusted the pic to increase contrast and temp which highlights the warmwwater he was just bathed in while I cleaned his last stool and plug from the tank... Took the sticky s out tho  :Smile:  
Don't know if I mentioned before but I do use heatgguns for accurate temps and have a herpstat on the other side of the tank lol I guess a pic is worth a thousand assumptions. Was pretty blown away how crucial people were about the surroundings rather than my question asking opinions about the snake. Next time I hold him during picture time, instead of placing him in the tank and snapping a few pics...
I do have one other question: have you ever heard of rubbing a snake with vegetable oil? The breeder did this before I left and said he does it once a month to protect against mites and procure better sheds? He said if the snake has mites, they will come off in your hand from the vegetable or olive oil...a herp DVM told him about the trick.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Actually this will be his 2nd shed ...2 reasons why the skin is so shiny, I adusted the pic to increase contrast and temp which highlights the warmwwater he was just bathed in while I cleaned his last stool and plug from the tank... Took the sticky s out tho  
> Don't know if I mentioned before but I do use heatgguns for accurate temps and have a herpstat on the other side of the tank lol I guess a pic is worth a thousand assumptions. Was pretty blown away how crucial people were about the surroundings rather than my question asking opinions about the snake. Next time I hold him during picture time, instead of placing him in the tank and snapping a few pics...
> I do have one other question: have you ever heard of rubbing a snake with vegetable oil? The breeder did this before I left and said he does it once a month to protect against mites and procure better sheds? He said if the snake has mites, they will come off in your hand from the vegetable or olive oil...a herp DVM told him about the trick.


I give up  

There is no amount of photoshop, camera setting, photo editing that can make a snake let alone two (I saw the other animal as well ) look like a pre-shed animal especially without altering the background.

Again you got talked into buying non established animals that have not shed.

As for oil I could also tell you not to use oil because it will lead to scale loss but obviously if you do not listen to what you are being told regarding unestablished animal I doubt you will listen to what I have to say about mite treatment.

Oh and a BP should not be bathed either especially not prior to shed.

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_Dave Green_ (12-17-2016),_distaff_ (12-29-2016),Mshuntjump (01-08-2017),PitOnTheProwl (12-17-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-29-2016)

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## Ratikal

There are two pics in my gallery of both bp being handled after their 1st shed...your assumption was incorrect! 
It amazes me you assumed that I wasn't using correct husbandry, you knew for certainty the conditions, habitat, etc...just from 2 quickly snapped pics after cleaning...
The female Spider is a bit over 85 grams empty and the male is about 110g after his last meal. Asking questions before you "assumed" might be a better approach. If you are going to cite or refer to links , you might want to make sure it complies with your opinions on husbandry so you don't have to correct them to force the ill advised paper towel theory, assuming you thought these were out of the shell...amazing that ball pythons have endured about 2 million years of evolution without paper towel lol 
I was really just looking for opinions on colors and genes but thank you for the "know it all" input and Happy Holidays :Smile:

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Zincubus (12-17-2016)

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## Ratikal

Thank you all...wasn't so worried about the husbandry, I've studied the care sheets and these aren't my 1st snakes nor pets for that matter...
I just loved the colors on this guy and he was very friendly and active unlike most "tubbed" snakes that most breeders try to pass off...he is pre-shed. His 2nd shed unlike the "know it all" above assumed...
Not too worried about genetics since I am just getting back into ball pythons but I have no plans right now for breeding, just healthy beautiful pets! I have a lot to learn before I even think of breeding ball pythons...thank you all and Happy Holidays :Smile:

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## Zincubus

Sorry it's been such a rough ride for you so far , partly due to me I fear.

Maybe you should ditch this thread and have a fresh start ...

I also have had a slightly rocky ride in here . No hard feelings hopefully !


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## Ratikal

Please...no worries! I'm not that thinned skinned and I know how breeders and hobbyists are with opinions. I appreciate everyone's opinion and experience. It's a great way to gain knowledge. I didn't take any offense and I greatly appreciate your sentiment. I know a lot of people jump into hero keeping without proper research, fortunately I'm a little more educated. I studied a lot of care sheets, annalyzed the differences, took note of the opinions and practices of others before deciding to get another Ball Python.Ai use to have a beautiful SuriRT Boa and 2 adult Bps I raised from a hatchling and sub-adult. Unfortunately, my female companion wasn't excited about living with with snakes so I chose poorly...should've kept the snakes lol jk

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Zincubus (12-17-2016)

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## Ballpythonguy92

> Thank you all...wasn't so worried about the husbandry, I've studied the care sheets and these aren't my 1st snakes nor pets for that matter...
> I just loved the colors on this guy and he was very friendly and active unlike most "tubbed" snakes that most breeders try to pass off...he is pre-shed. His 2nd shed unlike the "know it all" above assumed...
> Not too worried about genetics since I am just getting back into ball pythons but I have no plans right now for breeding, just healthy beautiful pets! I have a lot to learn before I even think of breeding ball pythons...thank you all and Happy Holidays


I have all mine in tubs why because alot of mine wouldn't eat in a tank but in the  racks they never missed a meal unless breeding season even if they weren't breeding just because the cool down now with that said I also made the switch due to mites it made it easier to deal with and handle the first time I got them but everyone has they're own opinions on tanks vs racks I honestly seen the difference in some snakes especially my cave snake he is very aggressive in a tank but I've had him in a rack for the time being as I'm making him a custom cage but I think I'm keeping him in the tub due to his calm nature now 

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## Calider

For what it's worth, paper towels are great substrate to use if you would like your snake to die a horrible death! Look how effective they are! 

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...per-towels.jpg

You never know what a baby is going to try to eat, and that is true of animals of any species. I'd bet you anything this has happened even with animals that weren't being fed on paper towels.

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Ratikal (12-29-2016)

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## BPGator

> For what it's worth, paper towels are great substrate to use if you would like your snake to die a horrible death! Look how effective they are! 
> 
> https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...per-towels.jpg
> 
> You never know what a baby is going to try to eat, and that is true of animals of any species. I'd bet you anything this has happened even with animals that weren't being fed on paper towels.


That's paper towel in that snakes mouth?!


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## Ratikal

I have actually heard of this happening, expecially when keepers feed atop paper towel because it keeps the food odor or gets wrapped with food during constricting. 
I know with these forums alot of experienced keepers jump to conclusions and seem to chastise the less experienced.

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## Dave Green

> For what it's worth, paper towels are great substrate to use if you would like your snake to die a horrible death! Look how effective they are! 
> 
> https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...per-towels.jpg
> 
> You never know what a baby is going to try to eat, and that is true of animals of any species. I'd bet you anything this has happened even with animals that weren't being fed on paper towels.


I've fed 100s, maybe over 1,000 babies on paper towel and never had an issue.  These babies each ate multiple times as well.  I would guess this is a very rare occurrence.

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_Albert Clark_ (12-31-2016),_Alicia_ (12-30-2016),Ballpythonguy92 (12-30-2016),_cletus_ (12-29-2016),_Eric Alan_ (12-29-2016),PitOnTheProwl (12-29-2016)

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## PitOnTheProwl

No paper towel problems here either.

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## RamMac

> I give up  
> 
> There is no amount of photoshop, camera setting, photo editing that can make a snake let alone two (I saw the other animal as well ) look like a pre-shed animal especially without altering the background.
> 
> Again you got talked into buying non established animals that have not shed.
> 
> As for oil I could also tell you not to use oil because it will lead to scale loss but obviously if you do not listen to what you are being told regarding unestablished animal I doubt you will listen to what I have to say about mite treatment.
> 
> Oh and a BP should not be bathed either especially not prior to shed.
> ...


OP did not start the thread to ask for husbandry help. I agree, you're jumping to conclusions about how OP's husbandry is. Sometimes people here amaze me.

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Ratikal (12-29-2016)

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## PitOnTheProwl

> Sometimes people here amaze me.


Many time I feel the same way....... SMH

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dmt_jovi (12-30-2016),_Eric Alan_ (12-29-2016),Ratikal (12-29-2016),_redshepherd_ (02-17-2017)

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## Eric Alan

> For what it's worth, paper towels are great substrate to use if you would like your snake to die a horrible death! Look how effective they are!
> 
> You never know what a baby is going to try to eat, and that is true of animals of any species. I'd bet you anything this has happened even with animals that weren't being fed on paper towels.


I keep my entire collection on paper towels - hatchlings and adults. Always have. For what it's worth, I can assure you I care greatly for each and every life in my care.

For any husbandry practice, you can find a fear-inducing click-bait picture being used to advocate the opposite - live prey, frozen/thawed prey, heat tape, room heat, paper towels, wood chips, etc. In each practice, there are steps to take to minimize the risk (percieved or actual) involved. If you believe these pictures are "the norm", then you are no better than the mainstream media reporting on the 50ft venemous pythons loose in the Everglades set on eating our children.

Take the time to learn. That's the best advice I can offer.

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_Alicia_ (12-30-2016),Ballpythonguy92 (12-30-2016),_cletus_ (12-30-2016),dmt_jovi (12-30-2016),_Fraido_ (12-31-2016),_Lizardlicks_ (12-30-2016),PitOnTheProwl (12-29-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-29-2016),Ratikal (12-29-2016)

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## Ballpythonguy92

> For what it's worth, paper towels are great substrate to use if you would like your snake to die a horrible death! Look how effective they are! 
> 
> https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...per-towels.jpg
> 
> You never know what a baby is going to try to eat, and that is true of animals of any species. I'd bet you anything this has happened even with animals that weren't being fed on paper towels.


Never had a snake eat paper towel before but I have had them eat wood chips many times during feedings and why i just stick to paper towel but also in the wild they will eat dirt little sticks maybe even small pebbles that get stuck to the rodents or prey they snag and that always seems to pass 

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## Ratikal

Its crazy that my original post turned into a paper towel chastisement...
I'm not running a "breeder mill" or tub farm for my "pets"...
I spend a lil more on a comfortable place that resembles their natural habitat...in case you forgot, these are snakes, not your grandpas old playboy collection. I'm a naturalist, not a capitalist, theres no monetary interest I'm looking to gain. 
I even sent an apology to the poster "Deborah" above just to put out any fires. 
Can a moderator delete this post and maybe I can start fresh...that way you'll quit assuming I'm some kid who just got home from the local petsmart!!!

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## Ballpythonguy92

I'm not assuming that I just found that 1 post a little ridiculous and why I mentioned why I switched to paper towel over wood chips and I also use tubs as why would I want 30 tanks where would I put them lol but everybody's different and I'm sure if you asked Deb to delete this forum so you can start new she might as I'm sure she's one but not 100% 

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## Ballpythonguy92

Also saying your not some kid that just got home from the petstore is a big statement as your first post about 2 weeks back state you just bought your first 2 you had in while due to female drama which stated happened years back so this is your 3rd snake

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-30-2016),Zincubus (12-30-2016)

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## PitOnTheProwl

Just as a public reminder post don't get deleted just because, they are all here to stay.
Posts tend to evolve as information is gathered and made aware from all parties involved.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (12-31-2016),_Eric Alan_ (12-30-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-30-2016)

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## Zincubus

> Never had a snake eat paper towel before but I have had them eat wood chips many times during feedings and why i just stick to paper towel but also in the wild they will eat dirt little sticks maybe even small pebbles that get stuck to the rodents or prey they snag and that always seems to pass 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Why not compromise ... have reptile bark or beech chips in the vivs but simply place pieces of card on top when you feed .  


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Ballpythonguy92 (12-30-2016)

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## Ballpythonguy92

I'm not against any thing that works but it's all about personal preferences but I should have stated I don't just use paper towel but it's what's mainly use due to i can't always find those nice big bags of perfectly shredded aspen chips were it's tiny tiny little chips that's the wood chips I like but the store only ever carries 1 to 3 bags and of I don't get one right as they do they're gone in a day or 2 so buying a huge thing of paper towel for what 10 bucks is alot of snake beddings 

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## Eric Alan

> I'm not running a "breeder mill" or tub farm for my "pets"...
> I spend a lil more on a comfortable place that resembles their natural habitat...in case you forgot, these are snakes, not your grandpas old playboy collection. I'm a naturalist, not a capitalist, theres no monetary interest I'm looking to gain.


I would advise against being so quick to judge someone based solely upon the material their animal's enclosures are made of. It's a HUGE leap from rack system to "breeder mill" and to equate the two is offensive and a huge disservice to the hobby we all share.

The reason racks/tubs are as popular as they are is because they are specifically designed to meet the requirements for a proper ball python enclosure - 1) be secure, 2) be moisture resistant, and 3) be able to retain both heat and humidity. For the keeper, meeting these needs means that they can enjoy their snake without having to worry about the heat, humidity, or an escapee. For the snake, meeting these needs results in proper sheds, proper digestion, better eating, and a less stressed and overall happy/healthy snake. As you're well aware, these basic needs can also be met in a display enclosure (glass tank, vivarium, etc) with the proper equipment and kudos to you for doing so. But why judge someone else who's also meeting the needs of their animals?

Along those same lines, there's far more to a natural habitat than simply using natural materials. The habitat we are aiming to replicate is the inside of an underground burrow or termite mound. Those spaces have specific environments that ball pythons have adapted to, which properly maintained racks/tubs replicate quite well. It is not a selfish capitalist choice to use a rack/tub system - far from it actually.

Ultimately, though, it shouldn't matter what a person's methods or motivations are as long as the animals in their care are healthy and thriving.




> ...that way you'll quit assuming I'm some kid who just got home from the local petsmart!!!


There we go again judging a person based on an arbitrary choice - where they purchased their animal. Nevermind the fact that that kid just made the fantastic choice to join the hobby which we all share and love.  :Good Job:

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## Zincubus

> I would advise against being so quick to judge someone based solely upon the material their animal's enclosures are made of. It's a HUGE leap from rack system to "breeder mill" and to equate the two is offensive and a huge disservice to the hobby we all share.
> 
> The reason racks/tubs are as popular as they are is because they are specifically designed to meet the requirements for a proper ball python enclosure - 1) be secure, 2) be moisture resistant, and 3) be able to retain both heat and humidity. For the keeper, meeting these needs means that they can enjoy their snake without having to worry about the heat, humidity, or an escapee. For the snake, meeting these needs results in proper sheds, proper digestion, better eating, and a less stressed and overall happy/healthy snake. As you're well aware, these basic needs can also be met in a display enclosure (glass tank, vivarium, etc) with the proper equipment and kudos to you for doing so. But why judge someone else who's also meeting the needs of their animals?
> 
> Along those same lines, there's far more to a natural habitat than simply using natural materials. The habitat we are aiming to replicate is the inside of an underground burrow or termite mound. Those spaces have specific environments that ball pythons have adapted to, which properly maintained racks/tubs replicate quite well. It is not a selfish capitalist choice to use a rack/tub system - far from it actually.
> 
> Ultimately, though, it shouldn't matter what a person's methods or motivations are as long as the animals in their care are healthy and thriving.
> 
> There we go again judging a person based on an arbitrary choice - where they purchased their animal. Nevermind the fact that that kid just made the fantastic choice to join the hobby which we all share and love.


You make an awful lot of sense as usual EA and we're all so different.

I see no point in buy an expensive , gorgeous looking creature and shoving it out of sight but I don't breed or keep hundreds of Royals so my twenty odd snakes  are better suited to my display vivs and visa-versa .

That said I can't see why more people don't put branches in their vivs or their rubs as most snakes especially Royals / Balls will make great use of them.


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_Eric Alan_ (12-30-2016),Ratikal (12-31-2016)

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## Mangiapane85

> You make an awful lot of sense as usual EA and we're all so different.
> 
> I see no point in buy an expensive , gorgeous looking creature and shoving it out of sight but I don't breed or keep hundreds of Royals so my twenty odd snakes  are better suited to my display vivs and visa-versa .
> 
> That said I can't see why more people don't put branches in their vivs or their rubs as most snakes especially Royals / Balls will make great use of them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Different strokes for different folks. BPs don't need branches or any climbing objects in order to live a thriving, healthy life. They just don't. 

And to the OP, there's no mistaking the shine of that snake. No filter that can do that. ... you physically SAW this snake shed with your own eyes??..

And btw, it looks like a normal. Not a firefly whatsoever.


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## Ratikal

Actually, this is prior to his 2nd shed and the sheen is vegetable oil which is a vet referred method to check for mites...with the oil rub, mites will fall off onto your hands if present...
2nd...Definitely not a normal! Came from a fire female x lesser pastel male cross. I saw both parents on site with the whole clutch. Pixelation in the side markers, flames, coloration all present except the headstamp which is not an absolute of "all fires"! 
Thank you for the two cents...you really should've kept it in your pocket.

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## PokeyTheNinja

Wow, tough crowd and presenter. I'd say a low quality fire or an interesting normal. Fire X Lesser Pastel can create the following:

12.5 %
1/8 Normal


12.5 %
1/8 Pastel

12.5 %
1/8 Lesser

12.5 %
1/8 Fire

12.5 %
1/8 Lesser Pastel

12.5 %
1/8 Fire Lesser


12.5 %
1/8 Firefly


12.5 %
1/8 Firefly Lesser

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_Albert Clark_ (12-31-2016),Ratikal (12-31-2016),wolfy-hound (12-31-2016)

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## Ratikal

The last phrase was taken out of context seeing that I watch most the mods on this forum jump on people. Expecially when the first thing asked is where did you get it and 75% of the answers are big box stores. Thats usually when the insults and degrading begin. Just like the above replies to my original post..
Next, this is going to sting a bit, most breeders are mills and farms. I'll explain...when you breed a species purely for cosmetics and profit by flooding the market with your animals, it makes you a "mill". I'll elaborate, as a top AKC and CKC Champion field breeder, we are required to have our animals DNA markered, tested, certified...what accredited organizations require anything similar in breeding and selling reptiles, snakes, etc...while I can appreciate your passion for this hobby, I don't see many breeders case studying these animals to purify the complications or genetic defects of the species, i.e. spider wobble, woma issues, champagne etc...
Having a Bachelors in the Science of Nursing (BSN) and also being a Merchant Marine has furthered my education and experience abroad. We could sit all day and compare against each other accomplishments but I assure you, my animals are cared for better than most. I quietly sat aside while others judged me, my care for my animals, and my knowledge of the subject. While I simply asked opinions of the male pictured above, thats as far as it needed to go. My Petsmart comment was in reference of several replies assuming I was going to fail, a newbie or uneducated. I'll admit that husbandry has come along way in the 10 yrs since I owned my last snakes, I assure you I am continuing to learn about these beautiful creatures.  Thank you and Happy New Year...

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## Ratikal

There were 3 normals
2 pastels
2 fire males 
2 lesser pastels
1 firefly
1 firefly lesser
I had both males but one didn't make it due to a "kink" and blockage of its abdominal area 1/3rd dorsal above the vent. The breeder kept both fireflys. 
I bought the fires because of the flames and coloring which was distinctly different than the others. The kink male had a bright headstamp. My male has a beautiful pastel yellow around his head and neck which turns to the orange color down his body. Quite beautiful regardless of his genetic line... I'm happy and he is quite healthy and energetic. He actually just came out of a shed last week and is eating like a monster.
I would upload more pics but you can already see what the 1st pic turned into....lol

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## Ratikal

Your advisement should go to your "constituents" for assuming and judging...I merely reacted accordingly to the negativity! If you feel otherwise, I humbly apologize. There are a "hundred ways to skin a snake" per say...I never said your way was wrong or right! Paper towel, tubs or not. I just gave explanation why I was standing to my paper towel opinion. I never said not to use it...just that I don't put paper towel or newspaper in my enclosures. The same reasons hospitals and clinics don't use paper towels to treat patients...

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## Eric Alan

> Next, this is going to sting a bit, most breeders are mills and farms. I'll explain...when you breed a species purely for cosmetics and profit by flooding the market with your animals, it makes you a "mill".


Phew. It's a good thing that most people in the hobby (including myself) are neither profitable nor flooding the market with the small number of animals they produce. I'll give you cosmetics, though - I love how beautiful these guys are.  :Very Happy: 




> I'll elaborate, as a top AKC and CKC Champion field breeder, we are required to have our animals DNA markered, tested, certified...what accredited organizations require anything similar in breeding and selling reptiles, snakes, etc...while I can appreciate your passion for this hobby, I don't see many breeders case studying these animals to purify the complications or genetic defects of the species, i.e. spider wobble, woma issues, champagne etc...


I can certainly appreciate the dedication it takes to reach the top levels of the dog breeding world. Congrats. Comparing that accomplishment to the ball python hobby, though, is like apples and oranges. For comparison's sake, in 1990 there were basically only three ball python morphs total. Dogs have been domesticated for ~15,000 years and have been kept as pets for ~2000 years (from my quick Google-fu). The amount of money set aside for research in the reptile segment of the pet industry is laughable when compared with the dog segment. Many have tried to separate the Spider complications and have been largely unsuccessful. To add to that, the Spider morph (first produced in 1999) is likely the most out-crossed morph out there for the very reason that you advocated - to "purify the complications". For these reasons, it is generally agreed upon that the wobble is inseparable from the morph itself. That's with only 1% of the time to do this kind of research when compared with how long dogs have been kept as pets (and essentially 0% when compared to how long they've been domesticated). What kind of requirements did the AKC and CKC have at the beginning of the first millennium?




> Having a Bachelors in the Science of Nursing (BSN) and also being a Merchant Marine has furthered my education and experience abroad. We could sit all day and compare against each other accomplishments but I assure you, my animals are cared for better than most.


I never once questioned your ability to care for your animals - quite the opposite actually if you read my response. And, for the record, who's comparing? Just in case it's of any importance whatsoever, my B.S. in Microbiology and 20-year-old passport are doing quite well, thank you.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   :Smile: 




> I quietly sat aside while others judged me, my care for my animals, and my knowledge of the subject. While I simply asked opinions of the male pictured above, thats as far as it needed to go. My Petsmart comment was in reference of several replies assuming I was going to fail, a newbie or uneducated. I'll admit that husbandry has come along way in the 10 yrs since I owned my last snakes, I assure you I am continuing to learn about these beautiful creatures. Thank you and Happy New Year...


I agree that many of the comments did go too far. Perhaps if you had mentioned the oil rub right away this thread would have taken a different path (in the 19th post of this thread, you said that the sheen was due only to a bath and some post-processing adjustments; it took until the 44th post to say it's the result of the oil rub). If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, right? Happy New Year to you too!




> Your advisement should go to your "constituents" for assuming and judging...I merely reacted accordingly to the negativity! If you feel otherwise, I humbly apologize. There are a "hundred ways to skin a snake" per say...I never said your way was wrong or right! Paper towel, tubs or not. I just gave explanation why I was standing to my paper towel opinion. I never said not to use it...


I've been just as quick to call out both sides when I find it necessary to do so. The paper towel comment I made was directed at another member entirely. I only quoted your reply in this thread when you made it personal by implying that those who keep their animals in tubs don't care about their well-being. That's just not true at all.




> just that I don't put paper towel or newspaper in my enclosures. The same reasons hospitals and clinics don't use paper towels to treat patients...


Forgive my confusion, but you lost me with that statement. What do you mean by this?

Last, but not least, I hope you don't think I'm singling you out for any vindictive, personal, or selfish reasons. I love a good thought-provoking conversation and this one is hopefully doing that for all involved - as long as everyone can keep an open mind throughout.

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_BPGator_ (12-31-2016),Creepy Alien (12-31-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-31-2016),wolfy-hound (12-31-2016)

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## Mangiapane85

Wow... it's really hard not to argue with this guy..

Dude, if you're coating your snakes in vegetable oil, you got a serious problem. 

Good luck with your spectacular college degrees.


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_distaff_ (12-31-2016),PitOnTheProwl (12-31-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-31-2016),wolfy-hound (12-31-2016)

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## Mangiapane85

I keep all of my ball pythons in a rack... yeah, I don't have any "fancy" carpet (even in my QT tubs), but miraculously, I've never had to coat any of them in vegetable oil. Lmao!!! 


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Mshuntjump (01-08-2017),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-31-2016),wolfy-hound (12-31-2016)

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## Mangiapane85

And Eric, you can't have an open minded conversation with a closed minded individual. 


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_distaff_ (12-31-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-31-2016)

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## Mangiapane85

The reality is, is that this guy is probably no older than 20 years old.. very little experience. And he is too stubborn and has too much pride to admit that he purchased an out of the egg animal that hasn't been properly started. And if it is TRULY well established, the dang thing has vegetable oil on it.... enough said.

OP, you are antagonistic and you attack the most knowledgeable people on the site... get a grip, learn your facts, then come back for more.


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_distaff_ (12-31-2016),Mshuntjump (01-08-2017),_PokeyTheNinja_ (12-31-2016)

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## Eric Alan

> Wow... it's really hard not to argue with this guy..Dude, if you're coating your snakes in vegetable oil, you got a serious problem. Good luck with your spectacular college degrees.





> I keep all of my ball pythons in a rack... yeah, I don't have any "fancy" carpet (even in my QT tubs), but miraculously, I've never had to coat any of them in vegetable oil. Lmao!!!





> And Eric, you can't have an open minded conversation with a closed minded individual.


I love a good thought-provoking conversation and this one is hopefully doing that for all involved - as long as *everyone* can keep an open mind throughout.

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## Mangiapane85

> I love a good thought-provoking conversation and this one is hopefully doing that for all involved - as long as *everyone* can keep an open mind throughout.


Open mind. Yep. Gotcha.

I think it's benefiting everyone involved, minus the OP.


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## Ratikal

Actually kiddo, I'm 40 yrs young....
Show me where I "provoked" someone on this post. Please don't refer to a reply of a single comment taken out of context in conversation. Actually, the "vegetable oil" is being used by the University of Florida in a case study reference to parasites on "wild animals"... my DVM got her doctorate there!

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## Ratikal

Pushing "your way" on someone isn't open-minded! Jumping to conclusions on a picture isn't either...

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## Mangiapane85

Wow.. good for your DVM... bottom line, snakes don't need vegetable oil. Healthy ones anyway.

Get a grip bro. And I'm not a kiddo. You've only got 8 years on me. But fortunately, I have the a ability to heed others warnings and advice.  :Wink: 


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wolfy-hound (12-31-2016)

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## Mangiapane85

"Provoking"? I wouldn't say you did any provoking, but you did jump in the ring with one of the most knowledgeable, most respected moderator/breeder on this site (Deborah). And frankly, you made yourself look like a fool. Kudos brotha.

Good luck with your DVM approved veggie oil lol!


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wolfy-hound (12-31-2016)

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## Ratikal

So what accreditations do you have with "herptology"? You have alot of winded comments but no insight that is relative to the original post. 
I can show you a room full of trophys and ribbons with AKC-UKC-CKC adorned across them. My kennel name strewned across them all. 
I guess your "username" is enough said son...

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## Ratikal

Alot can happen in 8 yrs...a presidency, two terms in the military, and advanced Masters degree. I could tell by your comments that you are a kid. You could've made a comment on the snake and quit but you chose a lower path. 8 years of maturity and maybe a bit more education could help your grammar and personality! 
Best of luck kiddo

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## Mangiapane85

> So what accreditations do you have with "herptology"? You have alot of winded comments but no insight that is relative to the original post. 
> I can show you a room full of trophys and ribbons with AKC-UKC-CKC adorned across them. My kennel name strewned across them all. 
> I guess your "username" is enough said son...


You make little sense...

First off, my username is my last name and my birth year, so what the heck does that have to do with anything?

Secondly.. all of your aforementioned "trophies"  have nothing to do with ball pythons.

Thirdly, I gave you my insight on your original post topic. The snake is a damn normal. Get over it. And in that picture, it hadn't had its first shed. Bottom line.

Why would you put vegetable oil on a 100 gram snake?? 


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wolfy-hound (12-31-2016)

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## Mangiapane85

Oh, and I have no accreditations... I'm just a snake keeper.


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## Mangiapane85

You spelled accreditations wrong btw.


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## Eric Alan

:Locked: 

*After further review, this thread will remain locked. As a reminder to all, from the Site Rules & Terms of Service (TOS):

*


> *3. No Hate Speak.* This includes, but is not limited to: cursing; threats of violence; racial, gender, religious, or sexual slurs; personal attacks; and speech intended to cause or further a "flame war" or personal vendetta. *This includes* *vindictive** use of the Reputation System and Private Messages. Ultimately, it will be up to the staff (the mods and ultimately the admins) to determine if any given post or thread has crossed these lines.*


*If threads like this continue to devolve into flame wars, formal corrective actions will be taken against those members responsible for the downward spiral.

Best regards,
The Ball-Pythons.net Staff*

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