# Colubrids > Ratsnakes >  Cohabitating different species

## Roman

Here are some new information about my ongoing bioactive themed   enclosure project. (If you are not familiar with my Spilotes pullatus   enclosure here is a link to the original thread about my  enclosure and  all details of it. -->https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...lotes-pullatus  )

   When the bioactive enclosure started to work and the cleanup crew of   isopods and springtails started to grow in numbers I started to think   that this environment would be ideal for dart frogs. I started to   investigate if there was any information about cohabitating colubrids   and dart frogs and found  nothing (not really surprisingly). 

  After more than a year of planning and thinking I decided to give it a   try and bought a trio of Dendrobates tinctorius, a species from the   same location as my Spilotes pullatus. When I added the first frog I   spend several hours watching it and the reaction of the snakes very   closely. The snakes where curious and reacted to the movement of the   frog, but did never attempt to hunt it, even when it was in easy   striking distance (or on top of the snake).

  When the first dart frog had survived his first week I added the   other two as well. They use the whole enclosure, sometimes even hiding   under / between /on top of a resting or basking snake. They provide an   additional stimulus for the snakes, because they react to the movements   of the frogs, watch them but obviously know that they should not eat   something colored like this. Another positive effect I had not expected   was the frogs hunting small prey directly on top of the snakes, I saw   several hunting jumps for small prey I couldnt see, but the frog got   something and ate it. I provide some Drosophila as additional food for   the frogs.

  Three months later this has turned out to be a real Win-Win situation  for both  cohabitated species. There are definitely enrichment factors  for both,  frogs and snakes. The obvious enrichment for the frogs are 2  square  meter of floor space and 3 cubic meter of volume with numerous  branches  they can use to climb and several plants covering the ground  and  providing additional hiding places. They have a steady amount of  small  prey items (isopods, springtails and Drosophila) and they are not  hunted  by the snakes. On the other hand they have to hunt for their  prey, it  is not located on a small place but all over the enclosure,  hidden in  the dead leaves, the moss or between other plants. The only  time they  have easy pickings is when I add a new breeding colony of  Drosophila.  Then the three frogs spend two days right on top of the box  and eating  any fly trying to get out. But after two or three days most  of the  surviving Drosophila have spread all over the place and the  frogs have  to work again.

  For the snakes the frogs offer an additional stimulus. They react to   the movement of the frogs, they watch them and are really alert.   However, they dont try to hunt them, they dont strike for them, even   if they are in easy range. This was what I was hoping for, but what I   had not considered was the fact that the frogs would actually hunt small   prey directly from the back of the snakes. So they provide some kind  of  laundry service to get rid of flies and other small invertebrates   resting on the snakes.


 Dendrobates tinctorius hunting on the back of the male Spilotes pullatus




Dendrobates tinctorius climbing on the back of the female Spilotes pullatus



Dendrobates tinctorius climbing on the back of the female Spilotes pullatus

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*Bogertophis* (06-28-2019),Craiga 01453 (06-28-2019),John1982 (07-07-2019),_Sonny1318_ (06-29-2019),tickyyy (07-06-2019)

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## Bogertophis

That's fascinating!  And you're braver than me, the sources I've seen say these snakes will eat most anything, including frogs.  Though if yours is well-fed & the 
frogs are pretty small, they might not be worth bothering with?  That's cool that the frogs eat bugs off the snake too, lol... :Good Job:

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Roman (06-29-2019)

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## Roman

> That's fascinating!  And you're braver than me, the sources I've seen say these snakes will eat most anything, including frogs.  Though if yours is well-fed & the 
> frogs are pretty small, they might not be worth bothering with?  That's cool that the frogs eat bugs off the snake too, lol...


What sources are these? Most of what I could find stated that adult Spilotes pullatus would mainly feed on small mammals and occasionally on nestling birds or eggs, I found no reliable source pointing out that they would feed on frogs or other reptiles. Sure there are some care sheets telling you that they will feed on everything they can get (usually the same care sheets describing them as always aggressive biting machines from authors who have most likely never seen any Spilotes close and personally). My best source for deciding on food composition is this paper:

Otavio A. V. Marques, Diego F. Muniz-Da-Silva, Fausto E. Barbo, Silvia R. Travaglia Cardoso, Danusa C. Maia, and Selma M. Almeida-Santos: Ecology of the Colubrid Snake Spilotes pullatus from the Atlantic Forest of Southeastern Brazil, Herpetologica, 70(4):407-416. 2014 

Your point of size differences is one I considered myself as well, it makes no sense for my big male (2.5 m / 8 ft, 3.5 kg) to hunt for a tiny frog, he would waste maybe twice the energy to swallow it as he would gain from digesting it.

However my main reasoning was (still is) that my snakes are WC from French Guiana. It was absolutely clear that I would only try this with a frog species which can be also found in French Guiana, that was one of the main reasons why I took Dendrobates tinctorius, this frog can be found all over there. The snakes should know that it is extremely unwise to eat a frog with this color scheme, otherwise this warning coloration would not make any sense. I am not sure if this would have worked with other dart frogs from somewhere else, like southern Brazil, which are not found in Guiana. I didnt want to find out if the warning coloration is general enough to be recognized even if the locality of snake and frog is thousand miles apart from each other.

I am also not sure if it would work with sub adult Spilotes, for a 100 to 120 cm (3 to 4 ft) long snake a dart frog would be just the right size for dinner and we know next to nothing about feeding behavior of young Spilotes in the wild, so I will do this cohabitation only with adult snakes.

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*Bogertophis* (07-06-2019),Craiga 01453 (06-29-2019)

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## Bogertophis

Your research was undoubtedly more thorough than mine... :Good Job:

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Craiga 01453 (07-08-2019)

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## GoatBoy

I'm not really getting involved with an opinion, but I know the guys over at dendroboard.com would be absolutely losing their s right now if they saw this.

I think their response would be something about undue stress to the frogs that would cause health or quality of life problems. You can't really ask a frog how stressed they are, so erring on the side of caution would be best. Dart frogs are very fragile and can die easily.

I've had darts for about 5 years, and snakes about the same. I'm not an expert in either, but I would personally not do this. But I'm also curious, best of luck.

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*Bogertophis* (07-06-2019),Roman (07-07-2019)

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## GoatBoy

I will advise you on feeding though. The micro fauna is not nearly enough food for the darts, even with a culture placed inside. The cultures are meant to be allowed to produce for up to a month and you feed a small portion daily.

I start 2 cultures a week for my 6 darts and it's barely enough.

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*Bogertophis* (07-06-2019)

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## Roman

Thanks for providing an answer from the frogs point of view




> I'm not really getting involved with an opinion, but I know the guys over at dendroboard.com would be absolutely losing their s right now if they saw this. [...]


 That was my experience when I tried to gather information prior getting the frogs. When I talked to frog keepers and described my enclosure they got dreamy eyes and told me that this would be a perfect enclosure for dart frogs  until I mentioned the snakes, then they were in complete denial mode immediately. But when I asked them for a reason the only answer I got was something like You just dont do it or We have never done it like that, without even knowing what a tiger rat snake was, how long it would be or what it would eat.

  Just in case you havent read the older post, here is a picture of my enclosure, so you know what I am talking about



It is 250 x 90 x 190 cm (ca. 8 x 3 x 6 ft) length x width x height. 




> [...]I think their response would be something about undue stress to the  frogs that would cause health or quality of life problems. You can't  really ask a frog how stressed they are, so erring on the side of  caution would be best. Dart frogs are very fragile and can die easily.[...]


  The frogs are active as soon as the lights are on at the early morning and start searching for food for some time. In the late morning they will go into their hides and usually stay there until I start spraying water in the late afternoon or in the evening. Then they will come out again to hunt for flies etc. which are startled by the water. Sometimes they will roam the enclosure during other times as well, but their main activity is in the morning and after the rain. When they are out, they will search the whole 2 square meter floor space for food, climb any branch and most of the plants and will even climb the walls to the full high of the enclosure, often right under the nose of one or both snakes. The frogs just ignore the snakes. When a snake is near them, they continue doing what they do in this moment, walking, hopping or climbing, hunting etc. without any particular hurry. They are especially not in panic mode, trying to reach any probable hiding place, they just walk/hop/climb by the snake. 

  So I dont see any indication that they are feeling stressed. They dont try to be stealthy, they dont try to stay hidden as often as possible, they dont flee the snakes  heck, as I said, they will sometimes climb on the back of the snake to hunt for some flies. Does this sound like a stressed frog? Just yesterday I heard the male calling, he might be trying to mate with the females. Does this sound like a fearful animal?





> I will advise you on feeding though. The micro  fauna is not nearly enough food for the darts, even with a culture  placed inside. The cultures are meant to be allowed to produce for up to  a month and you feed a small portion daily.
> 
> I start 2 cultures a week for my 6 darts and it's barely enough.


 OK, fair enough, I didnt make this clear enough. The bioactive enclosure is running since September 2017 with a stabile population of springtails and white isopods. The three frogs are in there for nearly 4 months now, feeding partly on the CUC, but if you look closely the population of the CUC is not really diminished, there are still isopods and springtails where ever you look. In addition I add a breeding colony of drosophila (complete with transport box) into the enclosure every week or every second week. In this breeding box are several already adult flies which are caught by the frogs or hide in the plants, dead leaves or in the moss and add additional prey the frogs have to hunt for. The box provides new flies for the next couple of days and when I cant see any flies in the enclosure the frogs will get a new one. So there are the CUC as always available food source and the flies as preferred prey.

  Again, I think this is really an important form of enrichment for the frogs. If you look at most enclosures for dart frogs they are rather small (big enough for the frogs, but still small compared with my enclosure). A small enclosure means that the prey is concentrated on a small place and the frogs just sit there and eat, they dont really have to hunt. In my enclosure they have to work for getting enough food, they walk/hop/climb sometimes for hours. The only time they have easy pickings is when I add a new breeding colony of flies, then the frogs will just sit on top of the box and grab flies as soon as they leave the box.

  Thats why I disagree with your assumption that my frogs might be stressed, and from what I could see so far they are far from fragile. Of course the environmental conditions (temperature, humidity, light) have to be right, but thats not different to the snakes as well.

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*Bogertophis* (07-07-2019),Craiga 01453 (07-08-2019),John1982 (07-07-2019)

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## Bogertophis

Well it's obviously working & that's a beautiful enclosure too, I might add.

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## John1982

> I'm not really getting involved with an opinion, but I know the guys over at dendroboard.com would be absolutely losing their s right now if they saw this.
> 
> I think their response would be something about undue stress to the frogs that would cause health or quality of life problems. You can't really ask a frog how stressed they are, so erring on the side of caution would be best. Dart frogs are very fragile and can die easily.
> 
> I've had darts for about 5 years, and snakes about the same. I'm not an expert in either, but I would personally not do this. But I'm also curious, best of luck.


My response to their response would simply be the pictures of the Dendrobates on the Spilotes backs, haha. Sure you can't ask a frog how stressed they are but these frogs are obviously comfortable enough with their living situation that they are 1)still hunting and eating, and 2)utilizing the snakes themselves as springboards. Well done on the enclosure, Roman. I think the only thing missing(or at least that isn't shown) is a nice, comfy sitting area for you to hang out and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

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*Bogertophis* (07-07-2019),Craiga 01453 (07-08-2019),Roman (07-08-2019)

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## GoatBoy

Well I see that you really have done the research and have a well made viv. You also care about the animals, and dont seem to be a dummy just dumping animals in together for no good reason.

As far as dendroboard, there are a lot of legitimate scientists and zoologists over there. People who have spent their entire lives doing lab work and field research in South America. Some have literally wrote the books on darts. So, I do take their advice when I can. One thing they DO NOT tolerate is mixing frog species and morphs, as the goal with darts is to keep the gene pool in pristine condition as it is found in nature, and it has been for a long time. If you mix darts you will quickly be ostracised from the hobby.

Your frogs do sound like they are doing well. Just keep an eye on weight and humidity and you should be alright. Please give updates, especially if you start getting eggs. You can pull them or let them grow in the tank.

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## Craiga 01453

I have interacted with Roman in a handful of threads. He may not be the most conventional keeper, but he KNOWS HIS STUFF. 

I've developed a HUGE respect for Roman because I've been fortunate enough to see how deep his research goes firsthand. He was kind enough to share some of the papers he has read with me. And just through listening to (errrr, reading) him, it is very clear that every move he makes with his animals is well thought out, due diligence has been thoroughly put in, and most importantly, his animals health and well being are always top priority.

Now, I will say that this particular cohabitation project is pushing the envelope a bit, but I think Roman is one of very few keepers I respect enough to fully support this project. I can say with complete certainty that Roman put the time in to do the research, weigh out pros and cons and do it the right way. 

...and look at that enclosure, that is just gorgeous!!! Pretty much any herp lover's dream come true. 

Roman, keep up the great work!!!!

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*Bogertophis* (07-08-2019),John1982 (07-08-2019),Roman (07-08-2019)

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## Bogertophis

Roman, you've obviously done quality research, & set up a fantastic enclosure.   But sometimes previous research doesn't cover everything & you just have to try 
something a little "outside the box".  Thank you for sharing here so all can learn from your set-up.   :Good Job:   Looks like it's a winner!

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Craiga 01453 (07-08-2019),John1982 (07-08-2019),Roman (07-08-2019)

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## Roman

> Well I see that you really have done the research  and have a well made viv. You also care about the animals, and dont  seem to be a dummy just dumping animals in together for no good reason.
> 
> As far as dendroboard, there are a lot of legitimate scientists and  zoologists over there. People who have spent their entire lives doing  lab work and field research in South America. Some have literally wrote  the books on darts. So, I do take their advice when I can. One thing  they DO NOT tolerate is mixing frog species and morphs, as the goal with  darts is to keep the gene pool in pristine condition as it is found in  nature, and it has been for a long time. If you mix darts you will  quickly be ostracised from the hobby.
> [...]


 I did not want to sound as if I thought the dart frog keepers or the users of the other forum were dummies, quite contrary. During my research I was talking to many keepers and breeders here in Germany and they gave me competent and really valuable advice. I am not active on the dendroboard, but I suppose it is the same, especially if there are so many experienced keepers and researchers around there. What I wanted to say was that (nearly) everybody would automatically reject the idea without a real reason. The exception was the curator for Reptiles and Amphibians of the University of Manchester (GB). I met him during a conference last year and talked about my brainstorm and while he didnt know if it might be possible he encouraged me to at least give it a try.

  The notion of not mixing the species to keep the gene pool clear is something I can only agree to, this is something we snake keepers should try to do more often ourselves. 




> [...]Your frogs do sound like they are doing well. Just keep an eye on weight  and humidity and you should be alright. Please give updates, especially  if you start getting eggs. You can pull them or let them grow in the  tank.


 Thanks for the advice, I am not sure if they are really in breeding mode, but I heard the male call out several times




> [...] Well done on the enclosure, Roman. I think the only thing  missing(or at least that isn't shown) is a nice, comfy sitting area for  you to hang out and enjoy the fruits of your labor.


 Ahh, you know, there is not much room in front of the enclosure, since it is located in a passage to another room. On the other hand, I am sitting in my office long enough each day, standing and watching them is good for my back.




> I have interacted with Roman in a handful of threads. He may not be the most conventional keeper, but he KNOWS HIS STUFF. 
> 
> I've developed a HUGE respect for Roman because I've been fortunate enough to see how deep his research goes firsthand. He was kind enough to share some of the papers he has read with me. And just through listening to (errrr, reading) him, it is very clear that every move he makes with his animals is well thought out, due diligence has been thoroughly put in, and most importantly, his animals health and well being are always top priority.
> 
> Now, I will say that this particular cohabitation project is pushing the envelope a bit, but I think Roman is one of very few keepers I respect enough to fully support this project. I can say with complete certainty that Roman put the time in to do the research, weigh out pros and cons and do it the right way. 
> 
> ...and look at that enclosure, that is just gorgeous!!! Pretty much any herp lover's dream come true. 
> 
> Roman, keep up the great work!!!!


 Thanks Craig, I really appreciate it. It is always a pleasure to argue with you  :Very Happy:  and I think we can only advance our hobby if we try to educate each other, share our knowledge and discuss new or ongoing projects. It is always possible to suffer from tunnel vision, so sometimes it needs somebody else to point out any flaws in your concept. 


  For this project, I was really weighing pros and cons for more than a year, I was pretty certain that it might work, but there was still a risk involved. In my point of view, if you keep an animal it is your responsibility to do it the best way (for the animal) possible, so I was unsure if it was justifiable to put the frog(s) at risk. But so far I think it is beneficial for both snakes and frogs. Since it has worked out (so far) I try to spread the information in different forums to give a new impulse and help educate other keepers. Not necessarily to advocate mixing species to everyone, but simply to show that it is possible under the right circumstances.

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*Bogertophis* (07-08-2019),Craiga 01453 (07-08-2019),John1982 (07-08-2019)

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## Craiga 01453

> I did not want to sound as if I thought the dart frog keepers or the users of the other forum were dummies, quite contrary. During my research I was talking to many keepers and breeders here in Germany and they gave me competent and really valuable advice. I am not active on the dendroboard, but I suppose it is the same, especially if there are so many experienced keepers and researchers around there. What I wanted to say was that (nearly) everybody would automatically reject the idea without a real reason. The exception was the curator for Reptiles and Amphibians of the University of Manchester (GB). I met him during a conference last year and talked about my brainstorm and while he didnt know if it might be possible he encouraged me to at least give it a try.
> 
>   The notion of not mixing the species to keep the gene pool clear is something I can only agree to, this is something we snake keepers should try to do more often ourselves. 
> 
> 
> 
>  Thanks for the advice, I am not sure if they are really in breeding mode, but I heard the male call out several times
> 
> 
> ...


Hahahahaha,yes it is. 

And you're absolutely right about tunnel vision. I've probably slipped in that direction a bit myself. You know, the whole "if it ain't broke..." deal. But I'd be doing myself and my animals a disservice to think things can't be improved. 
You've been influential in expanding my horizons. There's always new information available and studies are ongoing. So I'll be happy to argue with you again soon, hahaha.

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Roman (07-08-2019)

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