# Feeders > Breeding Rats >  Online Rat Communities?

## MrLang

I hope this doesn't get pulled down.

I am starting to get a bit deeper into rat breeding - fancy ones. I am looking for a community similar to this one but for rats. The key considerations are that they are not snobs and are active and knowledgeable on genetics and breeding. I know this is not easy to find, so if anyone has any pointers I would appreciate it. I'm also wondering about selling fancy rats. I've gotten to the point where I have some pretty impressive stuff coming soon (eg dumbo dwarf rex blue point siamese, pearl merle dumbo dwarf) and feel people would pay good money if I could get myself in front of the right crowd - any suggestions on that front?

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## dgring

Stick to snakes is my advice

- - - Updated - - -

How can you be attached to an animal that you feed to your other animals??? I could not do that, i have had mice and hamsters in the past but not at the same time as owning snakes

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## dgring

If you do decide to go on a rat forum than maybe http://www.fancyratsforum.co.uk is good or this is viartually the *e**xact same* as this forum but for rats not snakes (good comunity and same layout and everything). I dont know about this but try it: http://www.ratztails.co.uk/supportforum/Blah.pl. There are lots out there but the second one i mentiond (hyperlink is on the this) is the best from my knowledge. Again though, i advise to stay with snakes..

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## Archimedes

ratforum.com is a good one, I have a few friends over there. Rats are amazing animals, I can't wait to have my own.

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## dgring

> ratforum.com is a good one, I have a few friends over there. Rats are amazing animals, I can't wait to have my own.


FYI rat forum is the second one (link in the this)

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## Cupid

Be careful. Most pet rat groups OR pet rat breeders will not accept or want your rats. I'm very active in the rat world, especially in Florida. I know the Australian Rat Forum is very open to all kinds of breeders. Don't bother with any USA forums, and not sure about UK forums. The only people really willing to pay "good money" for a rat is a breeder, and that's only if that rat has a long, well documented pedigree. You could probably get a backyard breeder to buy from you, so I would go that route.

Also, you will more than likely get flammed in most communities for being a dreaded "feeder breeder", and then word will spread FAST. So be very choosy when picking out a forum and when to introduce yourself. 

Rat breeders with a name will not care if your rats can fly and talk, if you breed them for food and do not document linage... and when they disprove, the majority of their group will also.  :Sad:  The rat world can suck with how clique-y it is. Good luck.

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ballpythonluvr (12-10-2013),_Shadera_ (12-13-2013),wolfy-hound (01-11-2014)

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## Rhasputin

Rat people are crazy.

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_MrLang_ (12-10-2013)

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## Rhasputin

On a positive note, you really only need to advertise lightly on a few rodent sites, and people will come to you for merle and dwarf. They're in high demand and you can probably get up to $40 per rat from the right people. The other genes you have are a dime a dozen, but merle and dwarf are quite popular.  :Smile: 

You can try craigslist and hoobly as well. There may also be rat facebook groups to look into.

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## Marrissa

I haven't joined any rat forums but did some reading in them. If they get any wind you keep reptiles, watch out. I plan on getting new rat genes by picking them up at expos. If you go to expos I'm sure you'd have quite a few buyers.I'm not even going to try going through rat breeders or associating with them. I enjoy my ratties but I enjoy my snakes more.

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ballpythonluvr (12-10-2013)

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## MrLang

Thanks all. I'm aware I'll get shunned immediately if I let people know I'm a 'feeder breeder'. I'm probably not willing to get into pedigrees, breeding for the most 'show worthy' traits, etc... just looking to sell some fancy pets to people who want healthy animals with cool attributes. I'm not looking to get rich off rats, but I've been working hard to get down to some pretty awesome animals and I won't be able to keep them all. I just want to see the exceptionally fancy rats go as pets to people.

In response to the question about how I can care about both: I've seen how feeders are bred and it's a practice I do not wish to support. They are filthy, overcrowded, bred too young and too often, bred in large groups, poor nutrition, etc. I take comfort knowing that the food my snakes eat was raised humanely with appropriate diet, space, and care. People pay more money for 'pasture raised' meat to eat themselves, well I pay LESS for the equivalent for my snakes. I know that argument wouldn't fly with the 'rat people' but it's pretty undeniable logic. Rats are great pets, the genetics are fun, and they stimulate all of the same excitement that my snakes do. 


P.S. while the females have small litters, the average size of an adult dwarf rat is 115g. They stay 'rat pup' sized for the first 2 months or so of their lives, instead of 1 week like a standard sized rat. This results in them being high movement and small like a mouse for a while - a huge plus for finicky smaller snakes that you don't want to get hooked on mouse hoppers. There are plenty of benefits to breeding dwarves as feeders.

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_aldebono_ (12-10-2013),Annageckos (01-27-2014),_MonkeyShuttle_ (01-17-2014),_Rhasputin_ (12-10-2013),_shadowsnakes_ (01-04-2014),wolfy-hound (01-11-2014)

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## aldebono

> Stick to snakes is my advice
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> How can you be attached to an animal that you feed to your other animals??? I could not do that, i have had mice and hamsters in the past but not at the same time as owning snakes



You will find quite a few people here who are as passionate about their rats as they are their snakes, myself included. Breeding rats for certain traits is done much quicker than ball pythons, so I always had breeding projects going on. I honestly spent more time on a daily basis with my rats, and you get attached no matter what. 
I was comforted knowing where my feeders had come from and how they were treated before they became food. That was one of the reasons why I started breeding for myself. I eventually had amazing pet quality rats that I was able to sell to pet homes.
I definitely loved and miss my rats.

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Annageckos (01-27-2014),_MrLang_ (12-10-2013),_Rhasputin_ (12-10-2013),_satomi325_ (12-10-2013),wolfy-hound (01-11-2014)

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## BulkMice

there is not much out there for what you are asking bud ive looked all over and most forums are for pet only and show type rat breeding.

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_MrLang_ (12-10-2013)

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## MrLang

Angela, you NEED some of these little dwarves. They're so cute and much more energetic than standards which makes them very fun!

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## Marrissa

Picture? Haven't heard of dwarf rats before now. Is it a recessive gene?

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## Xaila

My sister is actual an admin at ratforum.  Just be careful how vocal you are about keeping and breeding snakes.  A lot of people won't want to do business with you if they think you're going to feed off the rats.  And don't do something silly like post feeding videos  :Wink:   There are definitely other snake owners over there though.

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## aldebono

> Angela, you NEED some of these little dwarves. They're so cute and much more energetic than standards which makes them very fun!


I definitely do, and some of those Siamese! 
I have a good friend looking after my snakes and managing my rat colony back in Florida. I am planning on driving down in the spring and I will have to make a pit stop! 
Right after I left for Maine, my rats produced a dumbo BEW  :Very Happy: . She is continuing my lines of Blues and Siameses. Big, friendly rats!

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## artgecko

I've been posting on ratforum... about my new pet rats.  I don't have enough snakes yet to breed feeders of my own but wanted to test both the odor and pet qualities of the rats before i committed to breeding them myself.  

So far I"m loving the rats... Mine have almost litter trained themselves in two weeks. 

That said, that forum (ratforum) is very anti-breeding.  They are even, to a point, anti-breeding rats as pets.  They can mention a breeder if someone asks and all of them say "go to rescue or good breeders" but they dont' encourage breeding or help people that might want to become "good breeders".  It doesn't make much sense to me.  Similar to how many of the cat forums are pro-adoption to the point that they demonize good show breeders.

I'm now considering breeding rats in a few years to try to get good temperament and health (for being good pets) but with the bonus of being able to feed off the rats that don't cut it temperment or health wise.  

Apparently the mouse community is much more breeding / culling friendly for whatever reason.

I've considered looking into getting breeding stock from a good "show" rat breeder when I do look into starting a colony, but the only one close to me wants you to sign a non-breeding contract... Which I"d expect with a dog breeder but seems odd with a rat breeder.

If I do end up raising rats for my snakes (as well as pets) I think I will have to keep them in bigger cages than racks and treat them more like "pets" if possible.

MrLang- good luck!  I think people would be interested in buying your rats as pets if there are no other "breeders" in your area and you advertize the colors / varieties you have.  But like the others said, if you breed them as feeders and an adopter gets wind, it will be posted on a rat forum and you will be trashed.

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wolfy-hound (01-11-2014)

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## aldebono

I adopted out to two people who were well aware that I was a feeder breeder. It's hard to hide if they come over to look at your rats, but neither of them minded that fact as they had friends who owned reptiles. One of them told me I had the healthiest and friendliest rats she has ever owned and she became a repeat buyer.
I think the customers will be split as to if they mind that fact or not. Many snake owners also have or have had pet rats because of a picky feeder and an extra friendly rat. 
And there is the simple fact that I can reach a goal with rats as a feeder breeder than a strictly pet breeder. If a line does not have the personality or health suited for a pet home, I do not have to hold onto those rats or find a willing home for them. I also get to see how consistent the traits are that an individual or line is throwing as I am producing much more than the pet breeder. And the first thing I am doing when I get my rats back is tracking lineages.

Not saying that one way is better than another, but we do have advantages.

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wolfy-hound (01-11-2014)

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## artgecko

aldebono- I totally see your points, and I will say that most most of the posts on those forums that diss feeder breeders also claim that the animals environments were nasty / smelly and that the animals didn't have anything to "play with" in their tubs... i.e. chew toys, houses, etc.  I don't know if they would have the same comments for a feeder breeder that provided clean cages and did give the rats some mental stimulation.  

I also agree that you have advantages over pet only breeders.  Like you said, being able to "do something" with the undesirable rats that is useful rather than hold onto them forever is a very big advantage.  

I am not sure what I'll do in the future, but I'm sure that I'll try breeding a litter or two for feeders and to select good pets at some point.  As I like both snakes and rats it seems like a natural combination to me.

As I don't have a lot of snakes (currently 3, planning on topping out at 8 at most), I think I could breed on a small scale that would allow me to keep the rats in enclosures similar to what pet rats are kept in and spend time with them, etc.  

I really admire those of you that do keep lots of rodents in quality conditions...  It's not easy task to keep my guys not smelling, etc.  and I can't imagine doing that with, like, 50+ rodents.

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## satomi325

Check out the Feeder Breeder group on Facebook. I'm sure some are willing to buy or trade for the more rare genes. The people there really do enjoy their rats and try to care for them to the best of their ability.

If you're not mass breeding feeders on a large scale, I think a lot of feeder breeders treat their rats well. And aside from enrichment, I do believe in many cases that feeder rats get better care than some pet rats. Healthy rats means healthy snakes, right? I keep pedigrees of the rats I hold back or sell as pets. I don't really record those who are going to be fed off. 

I was very attached to my first generation group of females. When they retired, they lived in a huge cage full of hammocks, toys, and a running wheel. And for rats who lived in a rack their entire lives, they surprisingly took to the litter box right away. There was no effort in showing them what to do. They just did it on their own. Unfortunately, I've forced myself to stop becoming so attached with the more recent generations. I can't have myself save and keep every rat that I retire. I'd be the biggest rat hoarder ever. Haha



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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Annageckos (01-27-2014),wolfy-hound (01-11-2014)

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## aldebono

I just joined that FB group, looks like a bunch of rat lovers!

I will admit my rats did not have the luxury of hammocks and wheels, but they did get food scraps and newspaper to shred and they had each other to play with and groom and I made sure they got along with their bin mates. 

Artgecko, you reminded me of something that has to do with more your other thread so I will comment there.

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## MrLang

Just caught up on the last few posts here. Thanks for the input! Dwarvism is a recessive trait which inhibits growth hormone. The result of this is a tiny rat that is _immune to tumors_.

I have had a few BEW dumbos pop out recently. Cute little buggers but don't fit in with what I'm working on. My most recent holdback is a blue dumbo rex female with one perfectly round eye patch over one eye. She runs up to the wall to say hi and hops right in my hand when I reach in while the rest dart into their little hide. Looking forward to breeding her into the dwarves.

As for the pictures:
Non-rex sibling to the holdback but has a similar eye patch


Hard to see but this one is black eyed


Triple het dumbo dwarf siamese merle and blue pearl merle


Last but not least one of my black eyed siamese dumbo dwarf males - this guy is a full grown adult

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_satomi325_ (12-16-2013),wolfy-hound (01-11-2014)

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## ballpythonluvr

> Just caught up on the last few posts here. Thanks for the input! Dwarvism is a recessive trait which inhibits growth hormone. The result of this is a tiny rat that is _immune to tumors_.
> 
> I have had a few BEW dumbos pop out recently. Cute little buggers but don't fit in with what I'm working on. My most recent holdback is a blue dumbo rex female with one perfectly round eye patch over one eye. She runs up to the wall to say hi and hops right in my hand when I reach in while the rest dart into their little hide. Looking forward to breeding her into the dwarves.
> 
> As for the pictures:
> Non-rex sibling to the holdback but has a similar eye patch
> 
> 
> Hard to see but this one is black eyed
> ...


Oh my gosh!  They are just too cute!  If I lived in Mass, I would so want a couple of those.  I have a female dumbo rattie that I am just totally in love with.

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## artgecko

Very cool pics!  
MrLang- Do you ever have any problems with megacolon in your high whites?  I've heard that it's prevalent in high whites here in the US unless they come from dalmatian or roan lines.

I think the dwarfs are cool too... The personality of a rat in the size of a mouse.. Very neat.  Do they have any behavioral quirks (other than being hyper)?

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## ironpython

Hey Mr. Lang Im like you a feeder breeder who enjoys the rat breeding as much as the snakes. Why dont we start our own FB page and get like minded folks together.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

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## satomi325

> Do you ever have any problems with megacolon in your high whites?  I've heard that it's prevalent in high whites here in the US unless they come from dalmatian or roan lines.


I only breed high whites myself because that's what I select for. I haven't had a single case of megacolon. My rats are also all recessive in their markings. Megacolon tends to stem from dominant forms of high white.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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wolfy-hound (01-11-2014)

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## Michelle.C

I am a rat breeder who also owns snakes. Not all rat breeders are snobby, many of us own reptiles ourselves. Most ethical rat breeders don't breed their own feeders, but some do. The breeders that do, keep their feeder line completely separate from their feeder lines. If you do that, I don't see most rat breeders having much of an issue with that. Not to say all will be accepting, but most will. 

Also, there are lots of "high white" (which is a misleading term) genetics in rats that are completely safe. Such as Variegated (which can produce Masked, Patched, BEW, Odd Eye, etc.), Recessive Blaze lines, Roans, etc. 

There are a few Rat Genetic groups on Facebook that I moderate/know the admins. Most are accepting if your questions are on-topic and you don't discuss the feeding aspect.

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## Michelle.C

> Triple het dumbo dwarf siamese merle and blue pearl merle


Very nice Pearls/Pearl Merles. Especially top left. Just a little info though, Pearl and Merle only show up in Mink based colors. So, technically, there are no "Blue Merles". When they are that shade, they can be considered Dark Phase Pearl Merle, but most people don't differentiate between Pearl phases (from light to dark). 

Pearl Merle. 


Here are some various markings from safe lines. 

Roan babies.


Roan starting to fade.


Recessive Blazed. 


Variegated Downunder.


Variegated Masked.


Various markings in a Variegated line.


UNSAFE SOX10 Dominant (The marking gene that is associated with Megacolon) Chinchilla Cap/Stripe.

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_MrLang_ (12-26-2013)

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## artgecko

Thanks for the info and pics Michelle C.
So I'm thinking that in order to know if a high-white looking baby is safe, you need to know what the parents were and be suspicious if all the litter is high white when one of the parents was a self, etc.?

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## Michelle.C

> Thanks for the info and pics Michelle C.
> So I'm thinking that in order to know if a high-white looking baby is safe, you need to know what the parents were and be suspicious if all the litter is high white when one of the parents was a self, etc.?


With most markings, it's almost impossible to tell if they are Variegated or SOX10 Dom. I can give an educated guess if photos/information of several generations are provided though. 

Since Variegated is incomplete dominant (while SOX10 Dom is lethal (in utero) dominant), it wouldn't be unusual to see Variegated offspring in an Irish x Berk, Berk x Berk, Hooded x Berk, etc. Unless the Self was a Mismarked Berk/Irish, I wouldn't expect to see any Variegated offspring in their litter. 

You can PM me photos, etc. and I'll take a look and see if anything stands out.

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## MrLang

This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. The websites discussing some of these traits are very old and not complete with some of the newer genes. 

The merles pop out mixed 50/50 for me. They are either that lilac color or they are dark - there is no in between. Are you saying there isn't another gene at play there? 

I want my merles to look more like the one you posted - any tips on how to cross them out to get the pattern more blotchy?

Good to know my high whites come from variegated. I get crazy mixes from mostly berk x berk or berk x irish and berk x any of the high whites with face mask types of features. Michelle - what are the names of the groups you recommend?

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## Marrissa

I wish you guys were closer. I want some dwarfs and pretty patterns and colors.

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## Michelle.C

> This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. The websites discussing some of these traits are very old and not complete with some of the newer genes. 
> 
> The merles pop out mixed 50/50 for me. They are either that lilac color or they are dark - there is no in between. Are you saying there isn't another gene at play there? 
> 
> I want my merles to look more like the one you posted - any tips on how to cross them out to get the pattern more blotchy?
> 
> Good to know my high whites come from variegated. I get crazy mixes from mostly berk x berk or berk x irish and berk x any of the high whites with face mask types of features. Michelle - what are the names of the groups you recommend?


Most of the Merles I produced are considered Light Phase/Pearls, the "Lilac" color is just a darker phase of Pearl (called Dark Phase Pearl). The shade of Pearl is determined by the penetrance (how much the Pearl gene is expressing). There are technically THREE genes at play with Pearl Merles (neat huh?). Mink is the base (which is diluted black), Pearl and Merle. So, the genetic code is aa(black)mm(Mink, which is what is diluting the black to brown)Pepe(lethal dominant Pearl, which is a tipped variety)Meme(Incomplete Dominant Merle).

The phase of Pearl can be gradually selected for, but I found the best way to get a lighter shade is to out cross to another American Mink line (Since UK Mink doesn't Merle well). It's likely the invisible modifiers/dilutions messing with your shade of Pearl. As far as the blotches, lightening the phase of Pearl will bring out the splotches more. Also pay attention to the Minks (the browns) in the litter. Mink can be Merle too, it's impossible to see it as adults, but you will see black-ish blotches on the babies. Just keep selecting for the best blotches/color and find a good American Mink to out cross to. You can also try to find a black that isn't carrying much, out cross there and then breed the offspring back together. 

Also, important note about Merles, make sure there are as few modifiers/dilutions in the line as possible, they will wash out your Merle spots. Mink is easily influenced and lightened, even when it's just carrying other dilutions. With the Merle spots being a shade of Mink, you don't want Russian Blue, American Blue, UK Mink, C-locus, etc. in the line.

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## artgecko

Michelle C-  Thanks again for the info!  The first babies I'm getting to start my colony are from a blue self dumbo to a blue hooded dumbo, so I'm thinking these are safe.. I was just wondering for future reference.  There are few to no good breeders (or any breeders for that matter) here, so I'm thinking most of my stock will have to come from pet stores, so I may not have access to multiple generations for reference.  

Yeah, I too wish you guys were closer, I'd love to have some merles or dwarfs.

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## Michelle.C

> This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. The websites discussing some of these traits are very old and not complete with some of the newer genes. 
> 
> The merles pop out mixed 50/50 for me. They are either that lilac color or they are dark - there is no in between. Are you saying there isn't another gene at play there? 
> 
> I want my merles to look more like the one you posted - any tips on how to cross them out to get the pattern more blotchy?
> 
> Good to know my high whites come from variegated. I get crazy mixes from mostly berk x berk or berk x irish and berk x any of the high whites with face mask types of features. Michelle - what are the names of the groups you recommend?


Also, interesting side note - "High White" is an extremely misleading term, you can produce Megacolon from Irish x Irish, as SOX10 Dom is a white spotting gene and can mimic Irish markings. That said, so can Variegated (it can look Irish, Berk, etc.) But, yes, markings like that can come from several different genes. The most common (unfortunately) being SOX10 Dom.

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## sorraia

I was very well known among the Internet rat forums, while I was breeding. If you want to join those groups, you'll want to keep quiet about breeding feeders, and maybe even about breeding at all. The general attitude on those groups is:
1) Breeding is bad. Rescue is best.
2) If you are going to breed, you have to do it a certain way.

The "right" way to breed will depend on who you ask. There are "groups". You have your "run of the mill" or "backyard" type breeder (using these terms loosely, as they are used in the internet rat forum communities). Maybe have decent rats, but you don't fit in the clique. You might breed too many litters (more than 4 in a year), or breed your rats too many times (single female bred more than twice in her lifetime), or breed too young (females bred before 6 months of age, males bred before 1 year of age), or breed the wrong colors (anything with a lot of white, blue, dwarf, tailless, etc), or keep them in the wrong cages, feed them the wrong food, don't play with them enough, etc etc. It's a very tight-knit community, and word spreads fast, include false word, so when you do something to piss one person off, you'll probably be blacklisted by everyone else. I was able to play my cards well and had the colors that were desirable enough, with enough pedigree records, and enough time in the realm of rat breeding, that I was able to escape such blacklisting by the "higher ranks", even when I used rats that came from the "backyard breeders". But it's not easy, you need to walk a fine line and really watch what you say. I'm not suggesting you lie, because when you do you will get caught and things will be even worse. But if you want to be involved, you really need to know what is believed, supported, and encouraged, and even have to believe it yourself just enough to be able to talk the talk while walking the walk. 

My suggestion, stick with local easy going groups, feeder friendly groups, or open minded groups that are more concerned with proper care of the animals than the politics behind the scenes. I'm not very active on the forum groups any more. If I were, I could/would probably be blacklisted because I now have snakes (and breed food for those snakes! *gasp*). Doesn't matter how the rats are cared for, what my history is in those groups, or even the fact I don't even use the same lines I had when I was breeding for pets only, the very fact I now breed food for my snakes is an almost unforgivable offense. 

There's one forum that's a bit more easy going. They don't immediately blacklist feeder breeders or snake keepers, but they don't want to hear about it either. They are not breeder friendly, unless you meet the criteria of a "responsible, ethical, reputable" breeder. It takes time to gain that reputation too. I can send you the link for that forum if you are interested, just PM me.

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## Awaiting Abyss

I wish I could find a rat forum that was friendly and open to various opinions like the mouse forum I'm on. I hate how every rat forum is pro rescue and against breeding of any kind. 
The rat forum I'm on actually made me bitter toward rats as pets for a long time until I left the forum for a while.

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## satomi325

Aside from the Feeder Breeder Facebook Group, there is also the Natural Rodent Forum on Facebook. They're not very active, but they are pet, breeder, and feeder friendly.

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DooLittle (12-27-2013)

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## artgecko

I found this one yesterday  and they seem pro-breeding... But I'm sure it's show / pet focused.  They have sections for mice and rats, but are Australian-based.  

I've joined (waiting approval).  I'm curious to see what they say about breeding questions. I do know that they have a sub forum just on breeding, so that is making me hopeful.

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## sorraia

Even while I was breeding pet/show rats, I kept a certain distance. The politics, high school drama, and cliques were downright exhausting. I miss those rats I had, but I'm glad I don't have to deal with the other stuff any more.

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## artgecko

sorraia- I know what you mean.  Forums tend to pool the "extreme" individuals of any hobby.  When I was on a cat forum it was the same way.  

I would like to get into breeding, but if I do it'll be on a small local scale and I likely won't try to show, etc.  Keeping rodents (and exotics in general) in my area is extremely rare, so showing would basically be impossible for me.  i guess I would be classed as an evil "backyard" breeder when I do decide to breed. :p

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## sorraia

> sorraia- I know what you mean.  Forums tend to pool the "extreme" individuals of any hobby.  When I was on a cat forum it was the same way.  
> 
> I would like to get into breeding, but if I do it'll be on a small local scale and I likely won't try to show, etc.  Keeping rodents (and exotics in general) in my area is extremely rare, so showing would basically be impossible for me.  i guess I would be classed as an evil "backyard" breeder when I do decide to breed. :p


I know there are a few pet/show breeders in Florida, but I seem to remember Georgia and other southern states generally being devoid. Seems the pet/show breeders are clustered into specific locals: Chicagoland, eastern seaboard, northwest, and Cali. There are a few in Texas too, but that's a big state! There seems to be a growing group (compared to years past) in the southwest too.

I'll have to admit, I guess I'm one of those "evil backyard" feeder breeders now too. Oh well. I'd rather know what my animals are eating and how those animals were cared for than to pick up goodness knows what. I'd love to raise the food for my dogs/cats too, but that's not entirely feasible right now.

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## 6th Happiness

There are cliques and nutty people in almost any fancy/hobby.  Don't judge all by the actions of the most vocal.  
Most care about HOW you care for and breed the rats, and that feeders and killed humanely before being fed.  Also that you are HONEST.  Hiding that you raise feeders, hiding that rats sold to someone as pets, or as pet/show breeding stock, are from a feeder background, can do much worse harm IMHO. 

On Facebook, a sane group with both pet/show and feeder breeders is: https://www.facebook.com/groups/RatGenePool/

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## wolfy-hound

I raise my own feeders and have sold a handful as pets to people. I don't see any reason to ruthlessly separate "feeder" lines from "pet" lines. I'm going for the exact same thing in a rat, a healthy, well grown, good attitude rodent that grows well on decent food without getting ill. 

My feeder rats all have to have good friendly attitudes. They have to grow well, have nice sized litters that grow quickly and stay healthy. Other than litter size, I don't see anything in that would not be essential to a pet rat, or even a show rat. Just because a rat is close to the ideal of "rat-dom" in size, shape and markings doesn't mean it's a lousy breeder or a slow-grower after all.

I do give my colony and feeders the best life possible. They all get premium food(Mazuri I order from a feed store), clean bins, fresh water, treats and 'stimulation' in the form of treats hidden in balled up paper or toilet paper rolls and such. I don't overcrowd them and I don't starve them or mistreat them.

The local "big breeder" of feeders also has pristine conditions and fat healthy calm rats. I used to buy my feeders from them and I was amazed at the quality of their "feeder rodents". I can say for certainty that they matched or surpassed ANY pet rat I've handled or bought. I have seen lesser quality "big breeders" in the past, but rarely seen any I would hesitate to buy from and none that I felt mistreated their rats.

I also have pet rats. It's possible to take wonderful care of your rodents to feed to your reptiles. It's possible to love a pet even if it's the same species that you use as feeders. It's like someone who has a potbelly pig but still enjoys bacon.

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_aldebono_ (01-11-2014),_satomi325_ (01-11-2014),_sorraia_ (01-12-2014),wilomn (01-11-2014)

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## sorraia

> I also have pet rats. It's possible to take wonderful care of your rodents to feed to your reptiles. It's possible to love a pet even if it's the same species that you use as feeders. It's like someone who has a potbelly pig but still enjoys bacon.


I agree, unfortunately a lot of people seem unable to make roar distinctions. 

I have chickens, and still eat chicken. Some of my layers will probably go to freezer camp when they so laying, and be replaced by younger birds. Some will remain as pets. I've got milk goats too, and they are pets. But milk requires babies, can't keep all, may not all all, some will probably become food. It's just life.

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