# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Why We Are Idiots For Using Kingsnake.com To Price Our Animals

## ColinWeaver

I wrote this a while back but someone encouraged me to post it here to keep the idea fresh in people's minds.  For your entertainment:

The cycle of going to kingsnake.com to see what your animals are worth has to stop.  It is destroying our industry.  And no, that is not an overstatement.  It is true.  A multi-billion dollar industry is at the whim of the most recent stupid price advertised by some out-of-work house painter who breeds ball pythons on the side and just crashed his car while driving home drunk.  The biggest names in our industry go to kingsnake to figure out what animals are worth.  I won't name names but you know who you are.  I cannot imagine anything more silly.  In the ball python world, the tail is truly wagging the dog.

Let me offer you a hypothetical scenario (or is it?) that illustrates why you should never again trust a price you see on kingsnake.com (or any other site of a similar ilk).  For this illustration I am going to make up a ball python morph called the Phantasm Ball.  Phantasms are co-dominant and currently sell for $2,500.

Larry, a small-time ball python breeder desperately wants a Phantasm Ball but can't afford one.  Unwilling to save his money Larry hatches a plan.  And here's how it goes:

Larry doesn't own any Phantasm Balls but Larry posts an ad on kingsnake.com offering 1.1 Phantasms for $2,000 each or $3,500 for the pair.  Individually that's $500 less than the going rate and as a pair is $1,500 off the current market value.  Naturally, Larry is going to get calls to buy the animals.   "Sorry," Larry says.  "They already sold".  But he says he should be getting some more in the next week or two and he takes names and numbers to call people back.  The animals never actually existed, of course, and the one's he is going to get next week don't really exist either.

A real owner of Phantasms logs in to kingsnake.com and sees Larry's ads selling Phantasms for $2,000.  "Crap!", he says, "The price is already down $500 from last year."  Wanting to be competitive with Larry (the liar), the real Phantasm owner offers his on kingsnake.com for $1,800 each, $3, 000 for a pair.  He sell them, happy for the $3K but disappointed because he thought he was going to get more for them.

Three weeks later Larry the Liar posts two more Phantasms on kingsnake.com for $1,500 each.  In his ad he explains how much it pains him to sell the animals for so little but he was recently injured and needs money to pay medical bills.  When the calls pour in he once again explains that they have already been sold.  He again says that a fellow breeder is expecting some more Phantasms to hatch in the coming weeks and will post them up as soon as they are ready.  In a few weeks, the cycle repeats again.

You can see where this is going.  Larry, a guy who doesn't even own Phantasms is able to drive the price down by more than 50%-80% in a matter of months.  Now, with the prices at a level he can afford, he buys himself a pair of Phantasms.  He is laughing his ass off at the rest of us as he does it.

Is this story true?  I don't know.  It's possible.  The fact that it took me about zero seconds to think it up means that someone less ethical than me thought it up long ago.  Never mind economics, supply and demand, the economy, falling home prices, unemployment, blah-blah-blah.  Pinstripe ball pythons were more than $2,000 in the latter part of 2006.  Now, at the beginning of 2009, barely 24 months later, people balk at paying $300 for one.  That is false.  Ball pythons lay an average of 6 eggs.  Few to none of us have super-pinstripes (yes, I know there is no super-phenotype) so 3 of those 6 are pinstripes (maybe).   I'm a small/medium sized breeder.  I produced about 70 clutches of eggs last year.  That's about 420 babies.  How many were Pinstripes?  Twenty.  I kept 12 of them for myself, I sold 8.  Multiply me by 200 similar-sized breeders and there are 1,600 Pinstripes for sale in 2008.  Think there are more than 1,600 ball python freaks in the USA who want a Pinstripe?  Uh yeah, there's more than that in my little crevice of Virginia.  If the market isn't saturated how did the price fall by almost 90% in 2 years?  I'll tell you how:  kingsnake.com and all of us going to it for pricing.  Whether it's people lying about animals they don't have or every person posting just a little bit less than the person who posted before them doesn't really matter.  If we continue to use kingsnake.com as our source for pricing the market will not have longevity.  We are ruining our own business and most of us are conscious of it.

I used to email people who put up really low prices asking them why there were doing it.  Most of them didn't offer valid reasons other than, "I really need money".  One guy told me he bred his own food and wasn't able to produce enough to feed his ball python production so he wanted to sell them as quickly as possible so he didn't have to feed them.  He admitted he knew he was selling them for a really low price compared to what they were worth but you know what?  I never again saw them for more than his admittedly low price.  His two weeks of low posting brought the price down nationwide by over $150/animal.

Kingsnake.com allows a breeder with a single pair of animals, say one bumble bee male and one normal female to control the price of bumble bees for every producer in the country.  I've heard breeders say, "let them sell theirs for those low prices.  After they do, they'll be gone and prices will return to normal."  But they don't.  Prices go back up once they go down. NEVER!

I have more to say on this topic.  A lot more.  But I'll save it for another day because if I don't, this will turn into a book and no one will read it.  I also don't want to rant.  I want to come across as a lucid, sane person.

In the meantime, please, please, please stop going on-line to figure out what your animals are worth.  Call Brian Barczyk.  Call Kevin McCurley. Call Bob Clark.  Call Adam Wysocki.  Call Pete Kahl.  Call Kim Bell.  Call Colette Sutherland.  Call Tracy Barker.   Call an established and respected breeder in this business and ask them what the realistic price should be.  Don't look at kingsnake.com anymore.

If you agree with me, even a little bit, please get other people to read this.  We've got to start preserving our industry.  Prices will fall, they always do.  But prices shouldn't fall they was they have been.

As a final thought, let me explain prices to you.  There are four different types of prices in the ball python industry.  They are:

   1. Retail prices - This is the price that should be listed on kingsnake.com or at a trade show.  You should be relatively serious about this price.  If you negotiate on this price it should not be by more than about 10%.  Pricing an animal for $1,000 and selling it for $500 ruins the credibility of all other prices you advertise.
   2. Sale prices - These are "weekend special" prices or "Santa Claus Specials".  These prices should be a reasonable discount (10-20%) off your normal retail price.  Don't get crazy.  Sale prices damage the market long-term.  For instance, pastel clowns were selling for $12,000 last year.  One weekend someone put them up on kingsnake.com for a "weekend special" of $6,500 (because he needed money).  The price never again went above $6,500.  All it takes is one stupid person to ruin it for everyone.
   3. Wholesale prices - Jesus, don't get me started.  Somebody conned the world into believing that wholesale prices are 50% off retail.  That's crap!  Wholesalers DO NOT DESERVE 50% MARGIN.  You know who decided that it should be 50% off retail?  The wholesalers!!!  Quit buying into their crap.  Demand more money for your production.  You do all the work, ALL OF IT, and the wholesaler gets to make the exact same amount as you???  Seriously?  Think about it.  You think the rest of the world  (outside the reptile world) has a 50% margin on their products?  Nope.  Try 15-20% on average.  If you sell an animal at 50% of its retail value you give the person buying it 50% of margin to ruin the going rate.  Why wouldn't he sell it for 80% of the current retail prices?  He only paid 50% so he's making 30% for absolutely nothing.  STOP WHOLESALING YOUR ANIMALS FOR 50% OF THEIR VALUE!!! YOU ARE DESTROYING THE MARKET IF YOU DO IT.
   4. Friend prices - These are whatever you want them to be.  Hell, I've given extremely valuable snakes to good friends for free.  These deals should be secret, between you and your friend.  Don't go on a forum and tell everybody that you just got a bumble bee for $300 and leave out the part about how the guy who sold it to you has been your friend since birth and you gave him one of your kidneys last year.  Someone hearing that you got a bumble bee for $300 makes them think that they deserve one for that much, too.  Deals made between friends in back rooms need to stay there.

Let's get a collective clue, people.  C'mon.  We're smarter than this.

Cheers,

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## mikels

Hey, colin thank's for the post..

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## RhacHead

I remember when you posted this the first time around.Its a great read I hope people take the time to gain the perspective you are attempting to show them.

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## MarkS

While I mainly agree with you on most of your points. 




> In the meantime, please, please, please stop going on-line to figure out what your animals are worth. Call Brian Barczyk. Call Kevin McCurley. Call Bob Clark. Call Adam Wysocki. Call Pete Kahl. Call Kim Bell. Call Colette Sutherland. Call Tracy Barker. Call an established and respected breeder in this business and ask them what the realistic price should be. Don't look at kingsnake.com anymore.


I'm not sure about the wisdom of having your competitors price your snakes for you.  There has got to be a better way.

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009),_KMS_ (10-14-2009),_nixer_ (10-14-2009),_Seneschal_ (10-14-2009),_Turbo Serpent_ (10-14-2009)

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## ColinWeaver

> While I mainly agree with you on most of your points. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about the wisdom of having your competitors price your snakes for you.  There has got to be a better way.


Touche.   :Smile: 

Perhaps it's in the approach:  Something like, "Hey Brian, what do you think a fair retail price on a LMNOP ball should be?" rather than "How much should I sell my LMNOP ball for?" 

The way in which we probe one another for information is just as important as the information we are trying to obtain.

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## iCandiBallPythons

Colin I could not agree more with you  on this post. Thank you for taking the time to write ALL of it. Maybe it should be posted all over the kingsnake forum. I think ultimately with some of people  selling their animals it comes  down to out right greed trying to beat the other guy to the punch and make that dollar. They can always seem to find an excuse...

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## Jason Bowden

I agree with you, but I believe that history is full of lessons to be learned.  History is a clue to things that may/will happen in the future. IMO  
For example: as a small time breeder(it is a hobby that my wife and I enjoy), I know that bumble bees will be in the $300 range before long(IMO again).

I read in a book on boas:  the reptile business(selling reptiles for pets)is fickle
I interpret this as:  high prices on expensive morphs are temporary

I do believe combos and new morphs should command high prices.  Who do you think is willing to pay these high prices?  I'd say if an average hobbyist(not a millionaire looking for an exotic show peice) pays for a $5,000(example only) snake, that hobbyist is a breeder or has every intention of becoming a breeder.

I did enjoy the read.  I wish I could sell ball pythons and boas produced by me for the prices I've paid for their parents.

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## pvdgod

I wouldn't call the ball python breeding industry a multi-billion dollar industry, maybe million, but definitely not billions. If it was you would have almost as many people with BP's as with dogs and cats.

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## tonkatoyman

> Touche.  
> 
> Perhaps it's in the approach:  Something like, "Hey Brian, what do you think a fair retail price on a LMNOP ball should be?" rather than "How much should I sell my LMNOP ball for?" 
> 
> The way in which we probe one another for information is just as important as the information we are trying to obtain.


Probing can be as easy as looking at their web site for the retail price. 
   However I believe you are leaving out  two people to look out for; The intentional market crashers. Those big breeders who breed up a bunch of a super popular morph and then dump it on the market really cheap for a quick killing. Or those who are into much higher end morphs and consider the one and two gene animals as a bother to be gotten rid of because they aren't worth the time to market so they dump them on the market cheap.

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009)

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## blackcrystal22

Doesn't price just depend on how much people are willing to pay for a snake at a price that a breeder is welling to sell the animal for?

Even if a breeder put a spider up for 5,000, wouldn't that be their choice? Out of current market, but the market really only depends on what people want to price their animals.
Just use your best judgment.

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## tonkatoyman

> Doesn't price just depend on how much people are willing to pay for a snake at a price that a breeder is welling to sell the animal for?
> 
> Even if a breeder put a spider up for 5,000, wouldn't that be their choice? Out of current market, but the market really only depends on what people want to price their animals.
> Just use your best judgment.


This is the reason for the post. It is not to bash any one but to make everyone aware of the market volatility and who is controling it.

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009)

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## Auletto

Hi Colin, Thanks for the post. You have a lot of good points, but I don't think anything with pricing is going to change. People regardless of kingsnake will keep this trend of under-cutting the next guy. 

The other day I was reading an old thread on KS about spider pricing from I believe 2006 and the poster was saying he didn't feel that spiders would still be an investment animal at $2500. After reading it I would be pretty mad if I paid $2500 for a female at that time. 

I think there's too many people buying too many snakes and if they don't unload the offspring in the first few months drastically drop the price to just unload them.

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## briz

I think there are two other big problems when it comes to pricing. First is the back door wheeling and dealing. Now granted some people buy alot from some breeders or have known breeders for a long time. Do they deserve a better price. I would say sure. And this has gone on for years, but there is a big difference now. Back in the day those deals were kept quiet. Now people brag that they got this for this price and it gets around and people start using it as a bargaining chip. Enough people start using it and it does eventually bring the price down.

Secondly is the shows. I for one will not spend the money for a table in my area. One breeder in particular can not be competed with on his prices. 3 years ago proven breeder het ghost males were being sold for$35. Not one but a half dozen of them. At the time they were $150-$200 on KS. More recently YB males for $35 ea. Last I looked at KS there were none at this price.

I wish I remembered more of his prices but I don't look too hard at his table. Just my thoughts and take on it.

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## briz

> I wouldn't call the ball python breeding industry a multi-billion dollar industry, maybe million, but definitely not billions. If it was you would have almost as many people with BP's as with dogs and cats.


I would say he is correct on multi- billion. Remember people with cats and dogs only have one or two. People with BP's usually have many more than that. Even most hobbyist breeders have over a hundred animals. The big breeders have thousands.

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## tonkatoyman

None of us can stop the low ballers but we can choose not to be one of them.

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_hoax_ (10-24-2009)

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## JenEric Reptiles

very nice read...to bad your example had to be  " out of work house painter"LOL
im a union painter and do it all..........commercial,undustrial........i know it was just a example.........i know..........just thought it was funny......keep those good articles comming!

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009)

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## Clear

> Doesn't price just depend on how much people are willing to pay for a snake at a price that a breeder is welling to sell the animal for?


I wrote out a long post but decided to bite my own tongue, this was what my post was about. There is no set price on a pet, it is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

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## nixer

there is many breeders out there that try to lowball everyone including you on purchases but expect you to pay their full price every time.  i have seen it way too much as of late.

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## pvdgod

> I would say he is correct on multi- billion. Remember people with cats and dogs only have one or two. People with BP's usually have many more than that. Even most hobbyist breeders have over a hundred animals. The big breeders have thousands.



i still dont think so, but would love to see some numbers. I think the avg hobbyist has maybe a dozen snakes, maybe a couple dozen, but not hundreds. The dog industry alone is a $60 billion a year business, and thats not just the cost of the dog itself, but the food, the grooming, the boarding, the cute little outfits, etc. And each purebred dog, esp those little teacups that are so popular go for a couple grand each. Only the rarest BP morphs go for that. Yes, some brand new morphs can go for 20k, and you wont find any dog for that much, but what are there, maybe 15 reallly BIG BP breeders out there? I think the reptile industry as a whole may be in the low billions range, maybe not even that much. You have to rememeber these being exotics that the number of people who have snakes and balls in particular is waaaaaay lower than your more common domestic animals.

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## West Coast Jungle

Colin I agree with your points but untill Kingsnake has a competive site with similar industry recognition, people will continue to give it this monoply like status it has now and allow it to dictate the market like Wall St. 

I do think the economy is definately encouraging the impatient and unknown breeders to dump animals on Kingsnake and then it spirals down from there. This is not the only industry that is experiencing lowballing. I am a self employed contractor and I have seen this behavior explode in the last year worsening an already slow market. 

It aint pretty!

Is it time to start a centralized industry organization that follows and recommends/establishes pricing? With so much drama and fueds in the BP market I would think it difficult to get the big dogs to get organized and cooperative. Which is a shame because someone needs to organize an alternative to the whim of a Kingsnake ad.

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ColdBloodedCarnival (10-14-2009),_FL0OD_ (10-15-2009),_hoax_ (10-24-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009),_scutechute_ (10-14-2009)

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## pvdgod

> Colin I agree with your points but untill Kingsnake has a competive site with similar industry recognition, people will continue to give it this monoply like status it has now and allow it to dictate the market like Wall St.




I know, why don't we have a cap on kingsnake.com executives' compensation and after that we can have a bailout for it since it's so big it's "Too big to fail"  :Salute: 



And the competitor site is called Fauna Classifieds.

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## MarkS

> I know, why don't we have a cap on kingsnake.com executives' compensation and after that we can have a bailout for it since it's so big it's "Too big to fail" 
> 
> 
> 
> And the competitor site is called Fauna Classifieds.


Haha, that's funny.  Maybe if Jeffs fancy new race car doesn't work out like he's planned he can get an automotive industry bailout?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Oh and Fauna has just as many lowball ads as Kingsnake does. Sometimes even lower.

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## trott

I agree with all said. I dont breed but at this rate everyones collection will drop in value.(But value is not my passion of course.) 
I"m not sure i would buy a high dollar bp(sight unseen) from KS unless it was someone i recognized. 
I worked with big breeders at shows and they walk around,check prices and adjust accordingly. My brother (who breeds Beardies) said this BP thing is just getting too big. His quote was "Every other table is Ball Pythons" " you could have a "just ball pythons" show.

If there are this many people looking for BPs and there multiple times the supply, those sellers who rely on the money will have to "underprice" the next guy and the chain is started. 
Harley davidson had years of a waiting list because they couldnt keep up with demand. Now they're drastically reducing prices .
I really believe its 1st supply/demand and 2nd economy.

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009)

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## pvdgod

what nobody seems to mention though is quality. Just because some guy was able to hatch out a super pastel in his basement and puts it up on KS for 400 bucks doesnt mean its anything close to one that Graziani or VPI would sell for 1000. Same way you can find a beat up Camaro on Ebay for 1000 bucks or you can buy a mint one for 15k, etc. It's a free country and the free market always weeds out inferior products in the long run. Of course if you use one site or classifieds to base your prices on you are not getting the full picture of the overall market.

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## Blue Apple Herps

> what nobody seems to mention though is quality. Just because some guy was able to hatch out a super pastel in his basement and puts it up on KS for 400 bucks doesnt mean its anything close to one that Graziani or VPI would sell for 1000. Same way you can find a beat up Camaro on Ebay for 1000 bucks or you can buy a mint one for 15k, etc. It's a free country and the free market always weeds out inferior products in the long run. Of course if you use one site or classifieds to base your prices on you are not getting the full picture of the overall market.


I agree with this.  People will always pay for quality.  I think the car example is great.  Sure I can find a ton of $75 pastels, but most of them are already browning out and fading color, even as hatchlings and have dull colors.  In a year or two, those won't look much different than normals.

I do think KS negatively affects the market, however, i do think the market was over inflated to begin with.  Plus with more people breeding means there is going to be more stock, which means prices will fall.  I do think that to some extent this causes a deflationary effect in which people hold out on buying waiting for the price to fall.  Thus when animals aren't moving, one lowers the prices, and the cycle continues.

But prices will fall, and they'll continue to fall even w/o KS.  Its just a fact of life.  We can sit around and complain about it and cry over spilt milk, or we can just adapt, and focus on producing the highest quality animals and to plan long run taking into account falling prices.

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_hoax_ (10-24-2009),_trott_ (10-15-2009)

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## JDL

> Haha, that's funny.  Maybe if Jeffs fancy new race car doesn't work out like he's planned he can get an automotive industry bailout? 
> 
> Oh and Fauna has just as many lowball ads as Kingsnake does. Sometimes even lower.


why is it the auto industry (when actually only 2 car companies got money) is the butt end of the bail out jokes when the money they got wasnt anything compared to the money the finacial district got?

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## bad-one

> what nobody seems to mention though is quality. Just because some guy was able to hatch out a super pastel in his basement and puts it up on KS for 400 bucks doesnt mean its anything close to one that Graziani or VPI would sell for 1000. Same way you can find a beat up Camaro on Ebay for 1000 bucks or you can buy a mint one for 15k, etc. It's a free country and the free market always weeds out inferior products in the long run. Of course if you use one site or classifieds to base your prices on you are not getting the full picture of the overall market.


Exactly. Quality will always command a better price. I've seen pastels for $85 males, $125 females. I've also seen some nice ones for $400 that I would buy any day over their cheaper, often ugly conterparts.

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## JayCee

> what nobody seems to mention though is quality.


I always get a kick out of the "quality" argument.

As far as I know, the "big guys" don't destroy/sterilize the low quality animals they produce.  They mark the price down some and then sell them with the full knowledge these animals are likely to be used by someone for breeding.  


I have produced some beautiful ball pythons "in my basement", by the way.  My collection size is based on space available (for both the snakes and feeders).  I keep my collection the same size, but continue to increase the quality.  I do this by selling as many snakes as I produce every season.  For every hatchling I "hold back" or new snake purchased, one has to go.

If you feel my asking price is too low, you are welcome to buy them all from me and hold onto them until prices go back up to where you would want them to be.  Good luck with that plan  :Smile: 

It's supply vs. demand.

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## MAballs

Great article, i love it.
The only thing i can say is that even though we all hate those "big" breeders for killing the prices for everyone else at the shows we also love getting that sweet sweet deal on a snake we've been lusting over for months if not years.
A friend of mine who is a pretty good size BP breeder told me this at the last NY expo. He said, "I hate selling against him but i love buying from him when i need something". If you've ever been to the NY Whiteplains expo you know who he was referring to.
I don't think the shows are that bad because not everyone has access to one, especially one where there are "Big" breeders with crazy low prices. kingsnake on the other hand is there for all to see and buy from and the idea of someone posting a fake add to drive the price down makes me sick to my stomach (and I sell cars for a living so i should be used to all this kinda stuff)

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_trott_ (10-15-2009)

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## pvdgod

> I always get a kick out of the "quality" argument.
> 
> As far as I know, the "big guys" don't destroy/sterilize the low quality animals they produce.  They mark the price down some and then sell them with the full knowledge these animals are likely to be used by someone for breeding.  
> 
> 
> I have produced some beautiful ball pythons "in my basement", by the way.  My collection size is based on space available (for both the snakes and feeders).  I keep my collection the same size, but continue to increase the quality.  I do this by selling as many snakes as I produce every season.  For every hatchling I "hold back" or new snake purchased, one has to go.
> 
> If you feel my asking price is too low, you are welcome to buy them all from me and hold onto them until prices go back up to where you would want them to be.  Good luck with that plan 
> 
> It's supply vs. demand.




dont take it the wrong way, most of us on here myself included would be the "basement" guy, i was just making the point that you have to compare apples to apples. Any one of us could buy some of the "Big guys" primo stock and produce babies that are no less quality than they would themselves, however again, you get what you pay for. Also if not for kingsnake, where would the hobbyist breeder (like most of us) have a place to buy/sell snakes without all the money for a web presence, advertising, table at a show, etc?

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## JDL

my question is why does quality and price always seem like people think they are one in the same. just cuz something cost more doesnt make it of a higher quality. breeder A can produce a top shelf honeybee in his shed and sell if for $15 and breeder B breed the worst example of one  and list it for 2k. i know for me when i shop i look for the best at the cheapest price (yes i said cheap). people do this everyday when it comes to other things and noone says anything bad about it.

a few years ago lcd and plasma tvs were 2 and 3 times the price they are today but i dont see anyone of us complaining about that (maybe someone who paid the higher price). 

we all sit back and call this a hoby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one, when it comes to most hobies you lose money in every aspect of it, i have yet seen any sort of return on the thousands ive spent on my r/c's (i only buy top quality there too) and i look at snakes in the same way if i can happen to get a couple dollars to pay for some food from breeding them cool if not who cares i love the hoby and thats all it is

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> I always get a kick out of the "quality" argument.
> 
> As far as I know, the "big guys" don't destroy/sterilize the low quality animals they produce.  They mark the price down some and then sell them with the full knowledge these animals are likely to be used by someone for breeding.  
> 
> 
> I have produced some beautiful ball pythons "in my basement", by the way.  My collection size is based on space available (for both the snakes and feeders).  I keep my collection the same size, but continue to increase the quality.  I do this by selling as many snakes as I produce every season.  For every hatchling I "hold back" or new snake purchased, one has to go.
> 
> If you feel my asking price is too low, you are welcome to buy them all from me and hold onto them until prices go back up to where you would want them to be.  Good luck with that plan 
> 
> It's supply vs. demand.


I don't really get what you're saying here. Of course the "big breeders" don't kill their ugly hatchlings -- that would be asinine. They also don't market them as any less suitable for breeding, but you can't get around the fact that ugly animals generally (though admittedly, not always) produce ugly offspring, and vise-versa.

All people are saying is that a pretty animal of a given morph is always going to command a somewhat higher price than an ugly animal of the same morph -- _regardless_ of who produced it ("basement breeder" or "big guy"). Sure, there are big names who sell some ugly examples of given morphs at inflated prices, and they'll get that price, thanks to their name. But I still think that "Basement breeder A" with a gorgeous, bright yellow pastel will be able to sell it for a higher price than "Basement breeder B" with a dirt-brown pastel that looks little different from a normal.

I agree with you though -- ultimately, for the most part it's all supply and demand. Otherwise, the piebald (which has been around a LOT longer than the pinstripe) would've plummeted in price just as fast as all of these co-doms.

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## wilomn

> we all sit back and call this a hobby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one,


You found the chink in the armor of private breeders.

IF it's a hobby, price is not relevant.

IF it's a business, price is all that IS important.

It can't be both.

IF you're complaining about price, you're a business. 

It's that simple to this simple mind.

All the rest is justification for NOT wanting to be known as a business when, in fact, that is exactly what you are.

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_abuja_ (10-14-2009),_GoingPostal_ (10-16-2009),_Haydenphoto_ (10-15-2009),HeartAche (10-14-2009),_hoax_ (10-24-2009),_irishanaconda_ (10-17-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (10-14-2009),_Vypyrz_ (10-25-2009)

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## JayCee

> I don't really get what you're saying here. Of course the "big breeders" don't kill their ugly hatchlings -- that would be asinine.


The point I was making is that some breeders of other species DO that with their lower quality animals.  They put them down in some cases.  They sterilize and sell as pets in others.  That is how the professional breeders maintain the quality.

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> my question is why does quality and price always seem like people think they are one in the same. just cuz something cost more doesnt make it of a higher quality. breeder A can produce a top shelf honeybee in his shed and sell if for $15 and breeder B breed the worst example of one  and list it for 2k. i know for me when i shop i look for the best at the cheapest price (yes i said cheap). people do this everyday when it comes to other things and noone says anything bad about it.


I'd imagine we all do, to a degree (price-checking, that is). Still, though, I'd rather pay a bit more for a really stunning animal than get the cheapest possible price on something ugly. Maybe I wouldn't pay 10x the price, but I know I'd certainly pay more.

I mean, hell, these are ALL just _Python regis_. I can pick up a _Python regis_ for $10, as can anybody on this forum. I don't want just ANY _Python regis_, though -- I want ones that look crazy, with bright colors and funky patterns and all the like. If I pay $75 for a pastel that looks about the same as a $10 normal, isn't that more of a ripoff than paying $150 for a pastel that even non-herpers will see and say, "Wow"?

That doesn't mean that just because someone -- ANYONE, even a "big name" -- prices a pastel at $150, that makes it nice, or because someone else's pastels are $75, they're automatically ugly. But if one is a knockout, and the other looks like dirt ... Well ...




> we all sit back and call this a hoby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one, when it comes to most hobies you lose money in every aspect of it, i have yet seen any sort of return on the thousands ive spent on my r/c's (i only buy top quality there too) and i look at snakes in the same way if i can happen to get a couple dollars to pay for some food from breeding them cool if not who cares i love the hoby and thats all it is


I feel the same way about this, though I know a lot of people don't. You're dang right, though -- what other "hobby" gives even the remotest chance of even breaking even? Heck, I'll be psyched if I can even do this for $100/year, all earnings and expenses tallied up. If I could actually _make_ something at it? Get outta town.  :Razz:

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## redstormlax12

> my question is why does quality and price always seem like people think they are one in the same. just cuz something cost more doesnt make it of a higher quality. breeder A can produce a top shelf honeybee in his shed and sell if for $15 and breeder B breed the worst example of one and list it for 2k. i know for me when i shop i look for the best at the cheapest price (yes i said cheap). people do this everyday when it comes to other things and noone says anything bad about it.
> 
> a few years ago lcd and plasma tvs were 2 and 3 times the price they are today but i dont see anyone of us complaining about that (maybe someone who paid the higher price). 
> 
> we all sit back and call this a hoby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one, when it comes to most hobies you lose money in every aspect of it, i have yet seen any sort of return on the thousands ive spent on my r/c's (i only buy top quality there too) and i look at snakes in the same way if i can happen to get a couple dollars to pay for some food from breeding them cool if not who cares i love the hoby and thats all it is

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## rabernet

> my question is why does quality and price always seem like people think they are one in the same. just cuz something cost more doesnt make it of a higher quality. breeder A can produce a top shelf honeybee in his shed and sell if for $15 and breeder B breed the worst example of one  and list it for 2k. i know for me when i shop i look for the best at the cheapest price (yes i said cheap). people do this everyday when it comes to other things and noone says anything bad about it.
> 
> a few years ago lcd and plasma tvs were 2 and 3 times the price they are today but i dont see anyone of us complaining about that (maybe someone who paid the higher price). 
> 
> we all sit back and call this a hoby but complain about the prices like a business. if this is just a hoby treat it like one, when it comes to most hobies you lose money in every aspect of it, i have yet seen any sort of return on the thousands ive spent on my r/c's (i only buy top quality there too) and i look at snakes in the same way if i can happen to get a couple dollars to pay for some food from breeding them cool if not who cares i love the hoby and thats all it is


First, check my signature link about cheap vs. quality for a more in depth explanation. I will ask what I feel my animals are worth to ME. If they don't sell because I believe my animals are better than average, then it's no skin off my teeth to hang onto them, because I don't produce more than I can comfortably keep. 

I don't shop the price, I shop the animal and the looks of the animal and THEN I ask about price. I EXPECT a primo looking animal to be priced higher than your average animal. 

My average babies will be offered at what the market is asking for average animals, but my primo animals will be priced accordingly.

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HeartAche (10-14-2009)

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> The point I was making is that some breeders of other species DO that with their lower quality animals.  They put them down in some cases.  They sterilize and sell as pets in others.  That is how the professional breeders maintain the quality.


Selling, marketing for the pet market is different from culling, though. I market most of my chinchillas as pets, and 90% of the chinchillas I sell are sold to pet homes. Not a lot of people breed chinchillas around here, and I've got a waiting list as long as my arm -- and as far as I can tell, every name on that list just wants a _pet_. 

I don't *only* sell to pet homes, though, and if someone wants to breed the chins they got from me (even if they aren't the quality I want in my breeding program), I'm not going to stop them. I just don't push the breeding thing. 

I've said it before, and people don't seem to like to hear it, but -- this is the only animal breeding hobby/industry I know where the _vast majority_ of animals are sold as breeding stock. That means that, with every animal you sell, you're making yourself more competition. 

Is that bad? Good? I dunno, but that's the way I see this market. It's a weird one, that's for sure.

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## SPJ

> Quality will always command a better price.


Not for the majority of people buying nowadays. Lowest price is all they care about. They will want you to match the price of a "D" grade animal even though there is no comparison when it comes to quality.

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## rabernet

> Not for the majority of people buying nowadays. Lowest price is all they care about. They will want you to match the price of a "D" grade animal even though there is no comparison when it comes to quality.


That's when you ask - then why don't you buy from XYZ? If you like the animal that I'm offering better, because it's a NICER animal, then why would you be surprised it's priced accordingly? 

If you like XYZ's prices more than the quality of the animal, then go buy from XYZ.

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_hoax_ (10-24-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009)

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## MAballs

> Not for the majority of people buying nowadays. Lowest price is all they care about. They will want you to match the price of a "D" grade animal even though there is no comparison when it comes to quality.


But at the end of the day is up to the seller to say yes or no to that offer. If you have an animal that is considered A grade and take an offer equal to a D grade animal well then... shame on you.

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009)

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> That's when you ask - then why don't you buy from XYZ? If you like the animal that I'm offering better, because it's a NICER animal, then why would you be surprised it's priced accordingly? 
> 
> If you like XYZ's prices more than the quality of the animal, then go buy from XYZ.


And this dilemma is happening in ALL kinds of industries now. Not just ball python breeding.

I considered offering art commissions in certain fantasy art fields for about 0.02 milliseconds, until I realized that I would have to work for well below minimum wage to compete with all of the crap-ass artists who do $1 sketch commissions and have driven the price down for everybody else who doesn't have a name and a "known presence." So, this is not a unique problem, unfortunately.

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## Bleepr

Although I really agree with you on just about everything you said Collin, all I've got to say is good luck.

There will ALWAYS be someone out there trying to turn a quick buck, and who doesn't care for the animals. Its unfortunate but true, and will ruin it for the people who really care for thier animals, and use it for thier livelyhood. 

I for one, am very angry that prices for many of the animals I wanted are now half of what they where when I got into ball pythons. Example: Female Bees in January where about 1200 give or take 100 depending on where you looked, now, I can grab one for 600, easily. 

I'm a hobbist breeder for the time being, and it definately does suck to see how hard it'll be to get things up and running. What can be done realistically though? The whole basis of our economy is undercutting competition while still turning a profit. Like I said, there will always be someone who is willing to sell at a super low price in order to make a quick buck. 

Hatching female spiders for 275, males for 150, pastel males for 50. I can't hardly express how it makes me feel to see the combos I was looking to producing going for half of what they were worth 6 months ago.

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## Wonka

Personally anytime I hear people complain about Joe Schmoe producing second rate animals in their basement and lowballing prices, I want to go search out Joe Schmoe and buy an animal from him.

I, like probably half or more people with this crazy hobby, am in it to produce what I can for myself with what I can get. Many people make it sound like they want the market of Ball pythons to just be high end consumers who will pay any price for their nifty living art... while the actual ball python market seems to be hobby breeders/people without a million dollars who see the potential in what nature has invested in this species, either to focus their creative juices... or to make a profit on this potential.

And while selective breeding for the best examples of morphs is a skill, the expectation to make a fortune doing it degrades the hobby (while creating it at the same time of course.. lol). Because once you add such high profits you Invite the lowballers /profitseekers to undercut you. Without them, everyone in the hobby would be working on producing the best examples... because it wouldn't be the ball-python business... or ball-python industry.... but it would be a hobby who's players would be in it not for the money but for the love of the animals and trying to produce the best not the most profitable.

Any Joe schmoe in his basement has the potential to create animals as beautiful as the big guys, and if the big guys want to actually move their animals they are going to provide Joe with the tools to create what he wants at a price Joe wants to pay, or they can stop breeding as many animals as they do and only cater to the rich who can afford the insane prices complicated morphs reach. 

Making a market and multi million dollar businesses out of the hobby turns it INTO an industry, and anyone seeking to profit off of that had better be ready for how industries work. Competition is brutal... it's the nature of nature itself

I for one someone fascinated by the potential in this species am very thankful for the hard work of those who both created the magnitude of the hobby as it stands (I mean creating this industry has lead to the development of reptile shows where I first got hooked on these animals) and are providing the toolset for those like me to breed and channel my creative energies with the variety of genetics brought into the hobby. But in the long run, the mutations we hunt down to put in our projects aren't Created by us, we don't own a patent and such and couldn't get one because they are Created by nature itself. 

Putting a price on natures works means that price has to be one people are willing to pay for what they want to do with the animal. Make it a business and you get to deal with how businesses work. I for one couldn't and wouldn't pay the prices the higher end morphs go for until the market brings the prices into my range, and I'm expecting there's alot more of my type in the hobby than those who want to spend 5k or more on a single mutation... considering those who want to spend say 20k on that banana female are only going to do so so they can jump in the market and become your competition. You only get 2k for a pinstripe because people who buy it at that price know how much they can make off it in the future. End consumers aren't paying 2k for a one trick pony.

Lowballers dragging the prices down do benefit the hobby breeder immensely though, and help spread the hobby opening the market to more consumers. Eventually the market will stabilize and while your investment won't be paying off over 100% a year.... as long as americans are so spoiled to have enough disposable income to spend on such things as designer pets there will be a market. There will be niches such as wal-mart quality base morphs, high grade base morphs, triple recessive designer morphs for the rockstars, and so on.

What makes the pet industry different than most is that your product can reproduce itself.. and with Ball-pythons your customer base is MOST likely planning on doing just that.

Sorry to ramble but as much as I hate to see people who invest their passion and savings trying to make a good living doing something they enjoy have it spoiled... posts like this for some reason just bother me in some indescribable way. No offense to the OP I just hate business. 

And being so passionate myself about a hobby of which the biggest excitements stem from new morphs being introduced into the population by ripping helpless animals out of their homes and forcing them into a lifetime of prostitution so we can sell off their babies for profit makes me feel strange on the inside. Too much talk about protecting the prices we can demand for such acts just makes me feel  :Rolleyes2: ... as I hunt down new genetics for my own experiments. But I guess that's life.

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_Bill Buchman_ (10-15-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (10-14-2009),_Matt K_ (10-14-2009)

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## 771subliminal

> First, check my signature link about cheap vs. quality for a more in depth explanation. I will ask what I feel my animals are worth to ME. If they don't sell because I believe my animals are better than average, then it's no skin off my teeth to hang onto them, because I don't produce more than I can comfortably keep. 
> 
> I don't shop the price, I shop the animal and the looks of the animal and THEN I ask about price. I EXPECT a primo looking animal to be priced higher than your average animal. 
> 
> My average babies will be offered at what the market is asking for average animals, but my primo animals will be priced accordingly.


Would you not buy the least expensive snake tho if they were of the exact same quality?

When I shop I dont sacrifice quality, but I look for the grade A for the C grade price. 





> Low Cost * High Quality = inexpensive = a great value

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

I agree with 99% of the original post. I also see most of the points made by the members. (yes ive read every single post) 

What really gets me about this... Why is it that most of the other "exotics" being bred & sold, which have been on the market for years as well, have not really gone down in price? 

Ball pythons, corn snakes, geckos... These are the ones that are the biggest craze. The ones that tons of people have started breeding. These prices have dropped. But look at chameleons. Monitors. Basilisks. Frilled's. Many other python and boa species are also holding price as well. Especially the pure blood "locality" type boas etc..

One things for sure.. Supplies for all these animals does not seem to have dropped in price. Unless you buy frozen rodents online. There are very few wholesale supply companies with truly competitive prices for things like caging, bedding food, heat, therms, rheo's etc...

All these things are still quite expensive. Especially if you buy whats actually recommended & top of the line for the care of your animals. 

My point is.. There are still plenty of people out there willing to pay big bucks for other animals. Even dogs and cats. Try to find a breed like a doberman or shepard for less than $1000.00

If you are looking for one that is guaranteeed, comes with a pedigree, paperwork on the parents & grandparents with true german blood lines, you wont find one for less than that.. 

Even cats. Ive always wanted an oriental shorthair. Also over a thousand dollars from a breeder. Do you have any idea how long the waiting list is for the breeders ive contacted in my area?

The prices do not have to fall this badly for ball pythons. The scenario story about "larry the liar" makes total sense. For a long time now we have known scammers are taking advantage of fauna and kingsnake. We can only hope those people who are "desperate" for the money & sell off their snakes for low low prices will stop convincing everyone else that their own prices must also fall..

Also keep in mind.. This is the time of year when prices fall the worst. Breeding season. Keep your new hatchlings til spring. Feed them up and sell them for what they are worth as well established youngsters when the speed of the market (as it is right now) slows up a little.

Just my  :Two cents:

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## Mike Cavanaugh

....  whoops!

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## Matt K

First of all thanks for the great post, I'm glad to see your passion here. Secondly, all the dog talk is interesting to me, it's a very cool comparison. I wish the Ball Python market was a lot more like the Dog market is now. You could go online and find, lets say a Husky, for $300-$400 from a smaller breeder with average or okay looking parents. In fact, you could find a lot of them for this price, and almost all will be from a small breeder whose dogs are not quite up to snuff (breed standard-wise I mean). On the other hand, you can't get a puppy with great breeding and champion bloodlines for anything less than 3 or 4 times that price; anywhere from the $1000-$1500 range would be completely standard and acceptable. People will and DO pay this price for a good dog. I think it's very odd that people can easily understand that you pay for quality in the dog world, but not in the snake world. It would be ludicrous for a prospective dog buyer to bring up the fact that they saw a Husky for sale from Joe Blow for $300, and expect that to bring down the price of the champion-line $1500 pup. Likewise, the breeder of that $1500 dog doesn't feel insecure about charging that price, as they are confident that they are producing only the best. It's tough for me to swallow that the Ball Python industry could be so drastically different from the Dog business--but it is! I don't understand why small scale breeders can't sell their spotty Spiders and drab Pastels for <$200, while bigger, more respectable breeders sell theirs for >$500. In a way the market is set up perfectly for a change, the variability in the quality of various morphs is astounding right now. As breeders we should all have a realistic perspective on the quality of our animals, and price accordingly. It could be done, and people would fork out the cash for better looking animals. Besides the novelty of simply breeding two animals (not to say it isn't COMPLETELY exciting to breed even normals, as I know it is), we are left to take pride in the quality of our animals. For those who just want to breed for fun, buy $100 animals. For those who want to take pride in having top quality, unique animals, and producing the same kind of offspring, pay >$1000. After all, aren't those two completely different goals...almost two completely different hobbies? Anywho, this was long winded to say the least--much longer that I had intended, haha. I hope this isn't out of line and/or offensive to anyone, and I hope that it makes sense to someone other than myself, as I've sometimes been known to rant nonsense.

Cheers,
-Matt

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_hoax_ (10-24-2009)

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## Matt K

> I agree with 99% of the original post. I also see most of the points made by the members. (yes ive read every single post)...


I should have done the same, haha, you beat me to my dog argument. I have to disagree with you though on other herps holding their value well. Chameleons are going for fractions of the prices they were, even as early as three years ago, and fewer and fewer species seem to be commonly available. Also, many geckos have dropped significantly in price (think Uroplatus sp., Lygodactylus sp., etc). I think right now there's a downward trend in the reptile market as a whole. This is all just my opinion though--I'm not trying to be contentious! 

Cheers,
-Matt

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## wRobio

I got into ball pythons because mainly because A) I love the animals, and really want some of those multi-gene morphs. Even more than that, I want to hatch those morphs myself. And B) because the money I had for college in the stock market was turning from dollars to pennies, and C) I get free rats from work (that was more of a determining factor in quantity I can handle).

I was really selective when I first picked the higher end animals I wanted to buy and I payed pretty high, but their offspring make it totally worth it, and now I certainly do stick with a few select breeders, even if I pay a little more, and I do not fill my racks as fast as some others, I do feel like my snakes are prettier and healthier. 

My big problem, and IMO this is what causes the prices to plumet, is when you see someone who posts say... a 87gram male lesser platinum for $700(that would be last years prices), the snake does not sell, and four-eight months later that snake is still for sale, still around $700(maybe a little less), and now it weighs in at 300-800grams. Through those 4-8 months, people come to post their new hatchlings and see these animals that are way bigger than theirs, but priced where a hatchling should be. I think there are a lot of good quality BPs out there, and they sell for way less than they could, because their owners forget to add price to size. 

I also notice that the price of proven females is a lot more stable than hatchlings, obviously proven morph females are not available a ton, but I think the price of each should reflect the other well. For instance, if a proven co-dom female is $2500, than it seems like a hatchling should cost closer to 1/3 of what that female is worth, not 1/10. Right now a hatchling female mojave seems to be worth about 1/10-1/8 of what a proven female is, that seems wrong. 

It seems pretty obvious that people want good quality morphs to be worth a higher dollar that low quality morphs. Why do dogs get to be priced based on quality and snakes don't? well... dogs have standards, and registrations, and pedigrees, and all things other people have mentioned before me, and... this is the big one, they have shows where people go to let judges decide how high quality their animals are... they have this with rabbits, guinea pigs, horses, pigs, llamas, ferrets and god knows what else... so, maybe we should all start voting on what the think are the most important features of each morph, develop some guidelines, appoint a panel of well experienced judges, and start actually showing off the reptiles we love so much in.

Am I crazy, or would it be a lot easier to get high dollar for a snake that you can say "These albinos' sire was Zoo Med's Albino of the year at the American Reptile Competition three years in a row, and the mother was the number 2 pick for prettiest albino female at Daytona this year.", than "well I got the mother off craigslist as a het-albino, so I got the male off kingsnake from Dude McDuderson and made some albino babies."

I for one think it would be really fun to actually have reptile competitions, I wanna see what everyone thinks is the perfect example of a lemonblast and whatnot. And until there are some standards, registrations, pedigrees and all that for snake, basically until we all become a lot more snooty about the snakes we breed, and letting people we respect determine the value of our animals, we are all free to sell our animals for what ever we want.

If some "clubs" were developed for reptiles that act similar to the AKC and such, then there really would be separate markets for really serious breeders/hobbyists, and hobbyists who just like to watch snakes hatch. 

I may have gone on too long here, but I hope I got some osrt of a point across.

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_hoax_ (10-24-2009)

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## Mike Cavanaugh

Why are Ball Python prices constantly crashing?  Why can't the prices stabilize or even go up like most other pets? Popular breeds of dogs for instance.  Their prices are going UP!!!  Why doesn't this happen with Ball Pythons?

I have come to the conclusion that it's not kingsnake.com at all.   It's the nature of the beast. 

Here it is from beginning to end.

The Breeder that creates a new morph if planned right sells the first of their offspring at top dollar (super inflated price) to the big dogs. $25k for the XXX morph. Once the top dogs have them and have had time to create their own babies from breeding projects with the XXX ball, the price quickly drops each year but then stabilizes to what should be the normal retail price of  $500 - $1000 dependent on quality of the morph.    

Why should  $500-$1000 be the normal retail price? Because it is the bottom point where the breeder is making enough money for their time and expenses to be worth it.  Anything less then this amount and it would not be worth it to the breeder.  Most people who really want this XXX ball can save and in time will be able to afford and be willing to spend the $500 - $1000 for it.  There is PLENTY of demand to keep the prices between $500 - $1000 indefinitely.

This is when the consumers screw everything up.  IMHO, there are 2 kinds of people that own snakes.  

Type A: These are snake nerds who for the most part are intelligent, nerdy,  successful people who are fascinated with snakes for whatever reason.   Generally speaking they take good care of their animals, and make good decisions in life because they have good intentions, and are willing to do what it takes.  Some of these people keep snakes just as pets, and others choose to breed either to make a few bucks or to try and make a particular morph that they want.  Some of them are even able to make a good living out of breeding snakes. 

Type B: The other kind of person is IMHO the majority.  These are the rebellious under achievers who pretty much get into snakes because they are considered taboo, or not accepted by the main stream.  They CRAVE attention. While their intentions may be good to start they almost always in the long run hold their own "cool points" at a much higher regard then the snakes health and future.  Once the novelty or attention wares off, the snake is screwed.  

There are so many Type B people that get a snake on a whim, then a week later because they are broke and generally unsuccessful in life, come up with the grand idea of breeding snakes to make a quick fortune.  They are too lazy and / or stupid to do the math or the research necessary to figure out what all is entailed, and they just jump into it head first.  They do this by spending every dime they have at the moment on one or two below average XXX ball pythons. 

If the snakes are lucky and don't die, they are often able to successfully produce below average / pathedic XXX babies. Of course when the babies come they don't have the proper housing.   The keeper can not afford to feed themselves (because their parents just kicked them out) let alone hungry baby snakes.   They certainly don't have the money needed to fix any of the problems, or the will to make the money to fix the problems.  Investing in advertising?  Please!  

The cool idea has now turned into a major headache.  They are tired of the hassles of getting rats and the tanks haven't been cleaned in weeks.  The friends have already seen the snakes, and are just no longer interested.   Just as they started, they decide on the spur of the moment without any real though to SELL SELL SELL for rent, groceries, beer money, or whatever.  So they use tools LIKE KINGSNAKE to dump their animals as quickly as possible.  

Unfortunately you have lots of Type A people who see these under priced adds, and do the traditional nerdy thing and give into the lower pricing pressure that the Type B people are applying, and drop their prices too.  Nerds don't usually make the best salesmen either....   Sure their morphs are excellent examples of the morph compared to type B, but usually they don't have the confidence or the skill set to stand up to people and hold out for a just price.  Granted, some snake nerds can and do sell.... In fact they are some of the biggest names out there right now.  But most can't. 

Then you have another clutch born by another Type B person (don't forget, they are the majority) and the prices drop even lower.

This repeats itself many times over just a year or two.  The XXX ball is now averaging around $250 - $350 dependent on quality.

The big breeders at this point even though they know what their animals are worth have to make some tough decisions.  Their snakes are of superior  quality, and they do have some customers that are still buying a little, but their babies start piling up.  They have already made their money back, maybe even turned a profit.  Sooner or later they have no choice but to openly drop their prices, or do secret deals for way below retail just to get rid of them.  After all they have to make room for the new AAA morph they just acquired. 

Bam! the market is permanently ruined for the XXX ball. Prices drop to $150 to $200 regardless of quality.  

Now how can you say it is kingsnakes fault?  Yes they are a tool used often times in a BAD way, but they certainly are NOT the basis of the problem.

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_hoax_ (10-24-2009),_sg1trogdor_ (10-15-2009),_Turbo Serpent_ (10-15-2009)

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## sg1trogdor

Makes sense to me.  But Colin has a point also.   :Good Job:

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## Mike Cavanaugh

LOL, this took me forever to write, I didn't mean to make this another thread, it was intended to be a reply to colins thread.  My computer stated acting up so i copy and pasted into a new window.  Mods, can you fix this?

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## Hulihzack

> Nerds don't usually make the best salesmen either....   Sure their morphs are excellent examples of the morph compared to type B, but usually they don't have the confidence or the skill set to stand up to people and hold out for a just price.  Granted, some snake nerds can and do sell.... In fact they are some of the biggest names out there right now.  But most can't.


I agree with everything except this generalization.  I was a shy nerd who (I thought) would make a terrible salesman until I started working at a reptile store.  Turns out it's pretty easy and actually quite enjoyable.  When the time comes for me to sell my own snakes, I -can not wait- to tell people about them and make some sales.

Additionally, I've heard of PLENTY of "snake nerds" who will hold onto an animal and sell it for more as an older animal rather than dump it for a low price.  I will be one of these people as well.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think there are a few more Type A's out there than you are accounting for.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> I can't speak for everyone, but I think there are a few more Type A's out there than you are accounting for.





> Nerds don't usually make the best salesmen either....   Sure their morphs are excellent examples of the morph compared to type B, but usually they don't have the confidence or the skill set to stand up to people and hold out for a just price. * Granted, some snake nerds can and do sell.... In fact they are some of the biggest names out there right now.  But most can't.*

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## cornball252

I believe both hold true to some points... But I do not believe we should go off of other peoples prices.. Whether it be kingsnake or not... That is just stupid. Kingsnake is Over rated IMHO.

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## Hulihzack

> But most can't.


Right.  That's the part that I'm hung up on.  I just have a really hard time believing that a true snake nerd who values their animals would rip themselves off.  Maybe I'm mistaken. :Confused:

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## wilomn

> You found the chink in the armor of private breeders.
> 
> IF it's a hobby, price is not relevant.
> 
> IF it's a business, price is all that IS important.
> 
> It can't be both.
> 
> IF you're complaining about price, you're a business. 
> ...


There is not a thing wrong with being a business. Most of us either do now or plan to sell snakes in the future. 

I find it difficult to define a hobby, something one does for pleasure, with a business, something one does for compensation. 

I know a guy who keeps a bunch of orchids. He built a greenhouse for them. They're neat. He spends a lot of time with as well as on them. As far as I know, he's never sold one, he's never mentioned anything about wanting to make his investment back or that he wanted to make enough by selling little orchids to buy other orchids. 

That's a hobby.

He breeds snakes too. Really nice ones. He sells them for money. I think it's a business he likes a lot but I, just me, don't consider that a hobby. There are different expectations from his interaction between his two interests.

This probably holds true for a great many.

My definitions of hobby and business may be a little more black and white than some. 

I'm not claiming I'm right or anyone is wrong, just clarifying and expanding my prior statement.

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## omnibus2

Interesting post, thanks. The hypothetical situation you mentioned is scary.

So basically, it is that people are putting gradually lower and lower prices on kingsnake.com to compete with each other, and this is what is killing the market?

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## rabernet

> Would you not buy the least expensive snake tho if they were of the exact same quality?


Because I'm SO picky about the animals that I add - it's rare to find two animals of the same quality to comparison shop. As an example, how many lessers have YOU seen that look like this? 



That's a VERY unique look - I have been looking for "the" lesser that I wanted to add to my collection for over a year. I finally found him. So, there is no "comparable" lesser for me to comparison shop. I know what I want, and I'm willing to pay for what I want. 

And again - I don't believe that a bright yellow pastel that holds its colors into adulthood should be priced the same as a deep orange baby that's going to turn into a turd brown adult. And I won't sell my bright yellow pastels for the same price as the turd brown pastels. If that means that I have to keep all my bright yellow pastels for myself, I have no heartache about doing so. But somehow, I don't think that's going to be a problem.

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## rabernet

> When I shop I dont sacrifice quality, but I look for the grade A for the C grade price.


And I'm not willing to sell my Grade A's for C grade pricing. But I'm also not willing to produce more than I can comfortably keep for myself. If I sell my animals at my price - it's a win. If I keep my hot animals, it's still a win!

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_DesignerBP_ (10-15-2009),_hoax_ (10-24-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (10-15-2009)

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## rabernet

Here's another example of recognizing that there are distinct differences between the "average" example of a morph and a stunning example of a morph. 

Just last night I was on the phone with a local friend (who is also a member here) just chatting about snakes in general and what's going on with this coming season, etc. He says to me "by the way - I want an enchi from your girl when you produce some. I don't care what you're asking for them, I'll pay your asking price, but I have to have one of your enchi's offspring". 

There's a saying that some of my ball python friends and I say - "there are enchi's and then there are ENCHI'S!" 

My point is - there ARE buyers out there who recognize that a stunning animal should be worth more than an average animal. The difference is the mentality of the sellers. There is no reason to dump your price just because your animal doesn't sell in the first day, first week, or even first month of you listing it. Don't be so quick to panic drop your prices. 

My enchi is the model for my avatar. Here's another picture of her as well. And yes, I paid more for her than your average enchi price.

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## Lolo76

All I know is that I want one of those (Robin's) Lesser babies... seriously, he is SO hot!  :Bowdown: 

And I agree, there is no price on quality or desire. If I had the means, I'd happily spend more for a snake that made me go wow, over a cheaper one that made me go "eh." Even within my limited budget, I've been as picky as possible... took months to find the right Mojave, and I honestly didn't even care about the price-tag (although it actually wasn't too bad  :Wink: ).

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-15-2009)

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## MattZ BallZ

understanding where your coming from animals are worth different amounts to everyone, like me im a small breeder have about 40 ball pythons, i dont need to sell a lmnop ball for $2000  (all others prices) when i can sell them for $1000 and be able to feed my snakes for another 6 months without  it coming out my pocket.  bigger breeders have bigger overhead.  I dont all i have is just hydro, snake food and supplies, and rent but i have a job for all that and what ever i make from my snakes just goes back into them...   so if a lmnop is worth to you $2000  then that dose not mean its worth that to me.

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-15-2009)

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## Jason Bowden

Not to bust your balls.  Colin,  maybe it's the so say small breeders producing 70 clutches and over 400 ball pythons a year that drive the prices down.

I know there are big breeders that produce hundreds of clutchs and do it for a living.  BUT,  some "small" breeders have to get a job, keep their day job, breed as a hobby, PAINT FOR A LIVING, etc, etc, etc,...

3 years ago, I saw a breeder at an expo selling normals(his "disposable"(I know that that word sounds horrible) ball pythons) for $10.  On sunday, after lunch, he dropped the price to $5 for a perfectly healthy normal.---I assume it was worth it to the breeder because he made some gas money, paid for his table at the show, and doesn't have to feed and care for these "undesirable"(horrible word again) snakes.

Stirring the pot!

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## tonkatoyman

May I make a suggestion. I think some have missed the point. The object is not to stop those who unload animals cheap. It is to bring to everyones attention that we do not need to let them dictate price for our animals. Wal-mart sells diamonds so does Cartier. But Cartier doesn't run down to Wal-mart to check prices. They set their own price based on what they think it is worth knowing they will not win over the Wal-mart diamond shopper. And trust me the diamonds at Wal-mart are not the same quality.

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_cinderbird_ (10-16-2009),_DesignerBP_ (10-15-2009),_Eventide_ (10-16-2009),_hoax_ (10-24-2009),_monk90222_ (10-15-2009),_nixer_ (10-15-2009)

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## MarkS

> why is it the auto industry (when actually only 2 car companies got money) is the butt end of the bail out jokes when the money they got wasnt anything compared to the money the finacial district got?


If Kingsnake had opened a bank the joke would have gone differently, however since they got a brand new race car......  

[IMG][/IMG]

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-15-2009)

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## Freakie_frog

As a breeder when it comes to what I spend on a snake isn't relative. Sure right now prices seem to be dropping like a stone. When the dust settles those people that paid attention to the quality of the animal the buy as apposed to the price tag will have the upper hand.. How is that you say? Because they will be producing the high quality animals that are still in demand..

When you buy there are two ways to go about it.. buy the gene (i.e. I don't give a crap what it looks like I just want to own a pastel..) or buy the quality (i.e. when its 1800 grams will it still be a fantastic looking animal?)

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## Jason Bowden

3rd post here.  Blah
Selling snakes on kingsnake.com is very competitive.  Most of the snakes that I have sold were sold on kingsnake.com.  So, I have nothing bad to say about kingsnake.com and think it is a good place to sell snakes.  I also have purchased most of my collection from the classified ads on kingsnake.com.

If spiders are selling for $200 plus shipping.  I don't think anyone would buy one from me for $400(I sold spiders for $400 in the past, but not this year).  So, I may price mine at $250 shipped.

I do believe in breeding for quality.  Example:  Nicer pastels will produce nicer bees, blasts, etc.  The nicer/higher quality snakes that I produce are priced higher than the others.  Examples:  One with a unique pattern(high white pied) or one that is lighter or brighter.

With few exceptions, my collection was built on buying higher quality/better looking animals.  An example of me buying what was priced lower is my first spider.  In 2005, spiders were expensive(at least for me), but I wanted to produce bumble bees.  I bought the cheapest one on kingsnake. Shame on me for saving $300.  My first spider is one of my breeder females now and has produced two clutches for me including my first bumble bee.

Still enjoying this topic!

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## Matt K

> There is not a thing wrong with being a business. Most of us either do now or plan to sell snakes in the future. 
> 
> I find it difficult to define a hobby, something one does for pleasure, with a business, something one does for compensation. 
> 
> I know a guy who keeps a bunch of orchids. He built a greenhouse for them. They're neat. He spends a lot of time with as well as on them. As far as I know, he's never sold one, he's never mentioned anything about wanting to make his investment back or that he wanted to make enough by selling little orchids to buy other orchids. 
> 
> That's a hobby.
> 
> He breeds snakes too. Really nice ones. He sells them for money. I think it's a business he likes a lot but I, just me, don't consider that a hobby. There are different expectations from his interaction between his two interests.
> ...


I think flowers and snakes are different animals though. There is, in my opinion, a lot more that goes into the keeping and breeding of snakes than the keeping and breeding of flowers (given I have absolutely no experience keeping and breeding flowers). There is also a lot more to worry about, and a heavier ethical burden involved in snake husbandry and breeding. Beyond that, the idea of breeding on any sort of upper scale and keeping every single hatchling produced does not seem realistic to me, especially as grown hatchlings reproducing becomes an exponential problem. I think in the snake world if you're going to think about breeding, you have to also think about selling. I don't really think it's an option for 99.9% of people to NOT sell. In my opinion, selling is just another part of the hobby. Just because there is a business element to Ball Python breeding does not mean it's a business and not a hobby, I don't think it's sensical to draw such distinct lines.

Cheers,
-Matt

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MissMowgli (10-16-2009)

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## nixer

there is many different things lowering prices right now some we have not seen before times got tough and others have been going on.
the bottom line is this price your animals at what you want to.  if they are not selling at all or you dont have any replies then either your charging too much, your advertising not enough, or your just not got enough feedback to warrant someone to purchase from you.  

the quality doesnt mean much when your not selling anything and youve been caring for multiple clutches for months and months on end. everyone cannot keep every animal they produce and saying that you can is total crap! the last time i checked there is not alot of ppl in this business that have that much disposable income.  also what some fail to bring up that every animal in every clutch will not be the same.  not only that but just because an individual animal looks better or worse does not mean it will produce ugly babies more or less than the other. also your not the one dictating whats quality and what is not! the buyer dictates that period!

for those of you that are not selling and just buying pay what you want to pay for the individual animal every snake is not the same period! ive seen way too many ppl just buy a snake because its a mojave and not because its the mojave they cannot live without.  right now this is a buyers market!

when i got into this you could not hardly find nice looking animals for any money pretty much most of the things for sale is the animals that ppl do not want to keep for themselves.. right now your your starting to see a little better looking animals because all this time everyone has held back everything nice they could afford to hold back.  sure there is still not so nice looking animals out there still being produced and there always will be, but still not much has changed many ppl are still holding back alot.  too often i hear "im not giving away a female" and you hear that because if they keep the same price eventually when it gets bigger it will sell or they can afford to keep it.  this is also why we are seeing alot less morph females for sale also, but soon that will change also then stuff will drop again.

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_Bill Buchman_ (10-16-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (10-15-2009)

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## Haydenphoto

> there is many different things lowering prices right now some we have not seen before times got tough and others have been going on.
> the bottom line is this price your animals at what you want to.  if they are not selling at all or you dont have any replies then either your charging too much, your advertising not enough, or your just not got enough feedback to warrant someone to purchase from you.  
> 
> the quality doesnt mean much when your not selling anything and youve been caring for multiple clutches for months and months on end. everyone cannot keep every animal they produce and saying that you can is total crap! the last time i checked there is not alot of ppl in this business that have that much disposable income.  also what some fail to bring up that every animal in every clutch will not be the same.  not only that but just because an individual animal looks better or worse does not mean it will produce ugly babies more or less than the other. also your not the one dictating whats quality and what is not! the buyer dictates that period!
> 
> for those of you that are not selling and just buying pay what you want to pay for the individual animal every snake is not the same period! ive seen way too many ppl just buy a snake because its a mojave and not because its the mojave they cannot live without.  right now this is a buyers market!
> 
> when i got into this you could not hardly find nice looking animals for any money pretty much most of the things for sale is the animals that ppl do not want to keep for themselves.. right now your your starting to see a little better looking animals because all this time everyone has held back everything nice they could afford to hold back.  sure there is still not so nice looking animals out there still being produced and there always will be, but still not much has changed many ppl are still holding back alot.  too often i hear "im not giving away a female" and you hear that because if they keep the same price eventually when it gets bigger it will sell or they can afford to keep it.  this is also why we are seeing alot less morph females for sale also, but soon that will change also then stuff will drop again.



  Ya what he said  :Smile:

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## Bill Buchman

Great thread with many valid points/arguments/perceptions.  :Smile: 

Many things are indeed different these days.  One thing is the same as it has always been.  If you are seling an animal, you need to be prepared to keep it back or lower the price.  Some 1 and 2 gene FEMALES are worth more to me as a breeder to raise than to sell at low retail or worse.  :Sad:   I have held most of my girls back these season and last for that matter.  

I have a couple NEW projects/combos that I have set the intitial price on. I did/could not use KS to price them -- even if I were so inclined.  I took a look at similar/other existing/established codom-recessive projects --  measured my project visually and also considered the rarity of the componets to make the visual.  Again, if I have valued animals higher than potential buyer does then I need to be prepared to hold it or lower the price tag.   :Good Job:

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_AaronP_ (10-15-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (10-15-2009)

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## Wonka

> Type B: The other kind of person is IMHO the majority.  These are the rebellious under achievers who pretty much get into snakes because they are considered taboo, or not accepted by the main stream.  They CRAVE attention. While their intentions may be good to start they almost always in the long run hold their own "cool points" at a much higher regard then the snakes health and future.  Once the novelty or attention wares off, the snake is screwed.  
> 
> There are so many Type B people that get a snake on a whim, then a week later because they are broke and generally unsuccessful in life, come up with the grand idea of breeding snakes to make a quick fortune.  They are too lazy and / or stupid to do the math or the research necessary to figure out what all is entailed, and they just jump into it head first.  They do this by spending every dime they have at the moment on one or two below average XXX ball pythons.


Wow Thanks there Mike you just managed to insult more than half of our hobby (you even say in your opinion the majority) by calling them worthless losers.  Just... wow. You have to realize with the hobby as it stands WE type B people have the same captivating dreams as you (I'm assuming by your tone you consider yourself in the type A plan) type A's. Not necessarily for the cash but we have our creative urges too, and often much better intentions. When I go to a reptile show and watch who's getting into morphs it's a heck of a lot more type B losers than snobs.

The only reason there is any demand for morphs is because BOTH "type A" and "type B" people both imagine what they can do, and take a big step and make the investment torwards a positive future.  Do you breed and sell your animals? Because the tone in just those two paragraphs is like Sam Walton of Walmart hopping on the intercom at one of his stores and calling their customers a bunch of "retards". The snakes aren't just to be cool, as you'd like to insult a lot of the fringe with the stigma, but the fact that the animals are just that cool.

I guarantee many of the type B's (myself included) spend alot more time actually handling the animals and appreciating them as more for their coolness than as an investment, and I'd consider the actual social quality of those animals more worth my attention and my share of the market than even a prettier morph from someone who's snakes are terrified of people because they were a product made not out of facination but rather as an income (we've all seen you tube video's showing and that personality is shared by the majority of animals produced in mass production.) How many reputable breeders let their animals out of their cubicles to excersize and explore should they desire to? I sure as heck wouldn't pay top dollar for a stunning example of say a lesser who just sat there like a piece of furniture (I'd download the picture and save 500 bucks) but I wouldn't mind buying a brown pastel who was curious and actually an entertaining pet.

As far as the recent argument comparing Balls to dogs, it's partially relevant but it's a way off considering the natures of both the animals and the consumers.

Dogs are harder to have multiples of for the average consumer, making selective breeding a bit more difficult. The person spending over a grand on a quality dog line is buying a pet (and more often than not status symbol). The average consumer of expensive dog morph isn't primarily in the market for that animal to make more of them or mix it with other genes to create new things.

Balls are easy to house in multiples (although caging and incidentals are the true goldmine in the reptile industry (even in larger degree than the rest of the pet industry). The majority of those into Ball Pythons seem to me to be more into the coolness of the animals than the status symbol involved (well at least us type B losers who are generally unsuccessful at life regardless of what some "type A" people would say). The consumer of royal morphs is 9 times out of 10 looking to produce more themselves creating an excess, and since balls don't exhaust themselves in their consumption (rather the opposite they multiply) the prices can only be expected to plummet. Now you could slow this effect by not selling males (quicker to breed and can create alot more stock quicker), or by culling all but the best to really improve the lines... but until neutering royals is as easy as it is with dogs you can't expect prices to stabilize to the point where profits on invested time/capital remain consistently high on the same morphs. How are prices going to stabilize when supply just keeps going up while demand just goes down? I may be lazy or stupid but even I understand that fallacy in economic thinking. After the big dog and second wave in morph producers make back their investment on new morphs housing and feeding breeders has such a low capital upkeep compared to the prices their clutches can go for even without single mutations being in the 500-1k price range (which I know many type A's would find astonishing with their general success in life but is often out of affordable range of the type B hobbyist which makes up a large share of the royal single-mutation market).

It is still easy to get an unusually high rate of return on capital investment in the ball industry if you are generally successful at life and understand the market and how to play it. That is why the market has so many players on so many levels. How much was made on the pinstripe craze? Even if they were now selling for 50 bucks those who knew the market and were there at the right time made a killing... same with many of the new morphs. 

Those who are  "lazy or stupid"  :Party on:  and can't figure out how to either fill a niche or create one in the market will be standing there wondering why they can't still pull in 500% a year or more on their initial investment but the ones who "make good decisions" will realize that mood rings and pet rocks just don't command the same prices any more. Either way those who love the hobby and the animals, and who strive to create quality and are in it for that creative aspect, will be happy regardless of the outcome as long as the hobby still exists.

Just remember the market for Balls is as big as it is because prices DO drop where the majority of those in the hobby, us Type B's, can actually afford to participate in it. You only get 2k for a pinstripe because people know they can turn that around and later sell them for 500 then (what now 300?) but they have more to breed so their investment still pays off (granted there is the niche in the market that just has to have the morphs for their own collections... the quintessential type A type, but that is as you say not the majority of the market for your "product".) It's not like Ball pythons wear out as fast as say designer clothing, once I have a pinstripe unless I am trying to breed en masse I'm not necessarily going to buy another at the same price.

I apologize for my rambling my boyfriend is already chuckling at me for it, but this sort of topic is a passionate topic since it's putting a price (and therefore exclusivity) on beauty. And it seems people are more concerned with their profits in it as an industry (even if it places others just as passionate in the hobby out of the runnings on working with the more beautiful pieces in this fabulous jigsaw) than the side of the hobby that the passionate hobbyist could (in alot of my type B mentality) be focusing on..... trying to spread the beauty... the best genes... the "quality" in the genetics to raise up the gene pool of the species as a whole. We as a collective passionate bunch have shaped the whole face of the ball python species. Being part of that experience means more to me than a dollar sign. Being the unsuccessful and lazy type B that I am if I manage to just break even at this hobby, and enjoy sharing the passion with others in the meantime even if it means selling the beautiful well adjusted animals I produce at low prices just to be able to move my extras, I consider it a great success.

And even if I disdain the capitalistic cancer that runs this world and am considered unsuccessful by many, I am part of a big niche in your market. I plan on creating beauty with what I can afford to work with, I plan on sharing that beauty. I appreciate a browned out pastel for the magnificent animal that shares this existance with me, not as a less valuable piece of property that ruins the "value" my more beautiful creations are "worth". I am not alone. I AM Joe Schmoe, and there are alot more like me. If you don't want to cater to me and my value as a consumer... providing the "product" I seek at a price I'm willing to pay for it...  I ask that at least you don't go insulting me blaming me and those like me for hurting your success in this "industry". 

Please do your research on who your consumer actually is before you call the majority of them idiots and blame them for hurting your enterprise. I would rather buy a "lesser quality" animal from someone I'm proud to share a hobby with rather than a smoking animal at a fantastic price from someone I wouldn't feel 100 % happy inviting to my dinner table. Most of the herpers I know are the same way... a little free market research for ya.

Sorry to run off the tracks on this thread, if it was in the business forum rather than (whichever forum it's in now I've been editing this so long I've forgotten!) forum I would have just ignored it. No offense meant to anyone consider it a market survey if you must! Although in a lot of industries talk of getting together as a collective and setting prices would be considered illegal  :Salute: .

Sorry to ramble, I apologize for boring you with a novel, with love peace and camaraderie for all who share my obsession ... Long live Joe Schmoe!

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mapleman (10-16-2009),XzX_Patrick_XzX (01-21-2011)

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## GoingPostal

All the whining is pretty funny considering YOU are killing the market every time you breed.  You are selling those babies for a high price to *gasp* another breeder.  If there was such a market for them why is fauna full of bumped posts and dropping prices?  You can't regulate the breeding so why expect to regulate prices?  

  You talk like a "hobby" breeder must not be doing it right, must have low quality animals or a poor setup which isn't neccessarily the case.  I don't know any hobby that you make money off, if you are in it to make money, you are a business.  I'm not making any money off my lone snake, but don't feel the need to breed him just because I've been paying out to feed and house him, that's what having a pet requires last time I checked.  If you can't afford to feed and house what you are producing than you shouldn't be breeding period.  

  I also have spent thousands on my reef tanks but don't feel the need to frag out every "rare" coral every time it grows an inch to get my money back because I enjoy tanks and enjoy the hobby.  But plenty do and there's the same arguments on every reefing forum about price drops and "quality".  Some people feel special to pay 20x times the price to have a name on it and others like me could care less because it's the look I'm after, not who bred/named it.

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_Haydenphoto_ (10-16-2009)

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## minifly

a: Free Market

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## nixer

> Great thread with many valid points/arguments/perceptions. 
> 
> Many things are indeed different these days.  One thing is the same as it has always been.  If you are seling an animal, you need to be prepared to keep it back or lower the price.  Some 1 and 2 gene FEMALES are worth more to me as a breeder to raise than to sell at low retail or worse.   I have held most of my girls back these season and last for that matter.  
> 
> I have a couple NEW* super cool and exciting* projects/combos that I have set the intitial price on. I did/could not use KS to price them -- even if I were so inclined.  I took a look at similar/other existing/established codom-recessive projects --  measured my project visually and also considered the rarity of the componets to make the visual.  Again, if I have valued animals higher than potential buyer does then I need to be prepared to hold it or lower the price tag.


i agree with you bill, but i think something needed to be added. look for the bold

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_Bill Buchman_ (10-16-2009)

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## Bill Buchman

> i agree with you bill, but i think something needed to be added. look for the bold


You are too kind nixer!!   :Bowdown:   It always sounds a little sweeter when others go out of their way to embellish your project.  :Smile:  

The Caramel Mojaves and the rest of the gang  :Snake:  :Snake:  :Snake:  give a big "shout out"!!!!

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_nixer_ (10-17-2009)

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## 771subliminal

> And I'm not willing to sell my Grade A's for C grade pricing. But I'm also not willing to produce more than I can comfortably keep for myself. If I sell my animals at my price - it's a win. If I keep my hot animals, it's still a win!


i cant say that i blame you for not selling a's at c prices i wouldnt either, but others do this alot, that is part of the reason there is a thread like this one here.

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## MightyPythonExotics

I think anyone wanting to sell snakes should read this. Thanks for opening other peoples eyes.

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## BPHERP

I don't think its idiocy; the market will set the prices... and do it with no emotion and no prejudice. 

Another thing is, the internet consolidates markets further, so there is nothing we can do about it.

We either play ball, or get out of the game.

BrandonsBalls

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_Haydenphoto_ (10-23-2009)

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## Python9x74

This is very weird post....Leave it to us,  right out the gate, to jump in peoples faces to say _"Dont breed pythons for the money, do it because you enjoy the animals, do it because your passionate about the hobby"_ Now ppl are complaining that their business isn't making money....lol Im actually going to lower my prices by 75% on kingsnake on all my 2010 clutches...pastel ♀ $50, My whole clutch of piebalds 400 bucks...Anybody want a 
2200g. ♀ spider for 250 bucks...lol  :ROFL:

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## cornball252

I don't see how any one can disagree with this post... Now who is to say they are doing it for money? If you can make money doing what you love wouldn't you? Stop following the band wagon people. Get some common sense... and stop assuming stuff..... Kiddies.


Just my two cents.
Ben

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## Mike Schultz

As long as I make back my 300 bucks I spent on my kingsnake account I'm happy!  :Wink:

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_nixer_ (10-20-2009)

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> When I go to a reptile show and watch who's getting into morphs it's a heck of a lot more type B losers than snobs.


Excellent, then you agree with me.  Thanks for the support!   :Good Job:

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## Big Gunns

Good post Colin :Good Job: , unfortunately you just schooled a whole bunch of people. :Taz:

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## Wonka

> Excellent, then you agree with me.  Thanks for the support!


Haha, just remember, alot of people getting into morphs find this site as a resource and use it to help them decide who to buy from. Resources like this site are what help spread the addiction of this hobby (and resulting markets such as the desire for morphs and caging and other incidentals), and this is where alot of newcomers learn through reputation and words who they want to deal with and who they wouldn't for some reason or another.

Ahh the difference a sarcastic pair of quotation marks or their omission can make!

 :Weirdface:

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## AMPearce

This is the beauty of a free market system!  Prices are set based on supply and demand, and as supply increases (as it does every breeding season with bps) prices go down, thereby allowing more people to afford the luxury of owning a snake.  You can't get mad because prices drop year to year.  That's how a healthy market works, that's how more people are able to afford more luxuries and how stadard of living is raised (in all areas).  I agree you should not go on KS to do "market research" but if price go down on KS it could be an indication of a chaging marketplace.  If the phantasm owner/seller realized the demand was still high vs. the price he would not care about the guy faking the price.  Also, in the economic atmosphere people are in though financial situations and losing jobs etc. so I think it is natural to see people selling there "collection" cheaper because they do need quick cash.  This will flood the market with some morph, thus lowering there value per snake.  Another reason people lower their prices on their snakes is bc they can't sell them at their asking price.  This shows that demand has decreased vs. supplu so you can't get mad at them for asking a lower price bc you would have to do the same to sell your bp.

sorry if I rambled too much....

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## XGetSome

I hate to beveryones Bubble but this i just Supply and Demand. 

I dont see anyone here complaining that they got a LCD TV thats 50 inchs for 900$ that looks superb, but 5 years ago would have been lower quality and costs 10,000$.

I have purchased 20k$ in reptiles and supplies in the last 12 months. I hatched 6 Clutches of balls this year and have gave away morphs to friends for free. I have not sold 1 reptile and dont plan to until maybe next year. Call me the idiot who ruins the market because I am getting other people involved in the hobby? They wouldnt have bought a nice Albino or other morphs if they werent affordable. Me giving them a morph free? Well guess what one of those friends 5 months later went to the Anaheim NARBC and bought 6 more morphs. Would he have done this without affordable prices? NO. If an Albino ball was 20k I wouldnt buy balls. If my Clown male and female were 20k, I wouldnt be into ball pythons. Its the SUPPLY and lack of demand that lowered the prices and got my 20,000$ into your market. 

I am in it for the love of animals, not the love of money. And if they cost too much, then I am afraid I would have to pass. So if your into this for money? Then you have to find a way to outclass, advertise better, Cut your production costs, etc. Same thing applies in every market in the world. 

BTW if I ever do sell and animal, and make money. Just know that I had to run a full time "Painter" JOB and raise these animals too. I come home everyday from a 14 hour day and clean cages, feed and water everything. I build racks, completed a Snake room. And if I need to sell an animal thats worth 5k for 1k(although I would never), then unfortunately thats my right.  :Good Job: 

I hope evryone who reads this entire thread learns a lot. I really enjoyed it, and Collin you have valid points, and most everyone here does. This is one of those times where when its all said and done and he dust settles...all you can say is ...........

To Each Their Own

Daryl

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alikax (10-25-2009),eyegotballs (10-24-2009)

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## 771subliminal

me and my wife were talking and a good point about prices dropping came up, even if the price of a morph dropped 50% in one year you would still make out over the life of that snake, if its a male you could even make your money back the following year. co-dom male crossed with 3 normal females avg 8 eggs each if you avg 50% odds and get half morphs and the prices dropped 50% once you sell 2 snakes you have what you put into him back already, sell a couple more and he's paid for his food and houseing and you still should have a couple to hold back or sell to get a new morph. thats is just a drop in the bucket compared to what you could do with him if you were to use him to make double and triple morphs plus think of the life of the snake what all he can make.

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## hoax

> why is it the auto industry (when actually only 2 car companies got money) is the butt end of the bail out jokes when the money they got wasnt anything compared to the money the finacial district got?


Its funny to most people?




> That's when you ask - then why don't you buy from XYZ? If you like the animal that I'm offering better, because it's a NICER animal, then why would you be surprised it's priced accordingly? 
> 
> If you like XYZ's prices more than the quality of the animal, then go buy from XYZ.


AMEN!!!!!


I have been thinking about pricing lately, what is the market???

The best animal I can hope for this year would be a super pastel 50% pos het albino, I HAVE NO CLUE HOW TO BASE THE VALUE OF THIS ANIMAL!!!!

I guess I will stick to what I think they are worth and if they sell great if not then I guess I will have to explain to my wife why I have more snakes then what I told her I would have.

Mike

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> Haha, just remember, alot of people getting into morphs find this site as a resource and use it to help them decide who to buy from. Resources like this site are what help spread the addiction of this hobby (and resulting markets such as the desire for morphs and caging and other incidentals), and this is where alot of newcomers learn through reputation and words who they want to deal with and who they wouldn't for some reason or another.
> 
> Ahh the difference a sarcastic pair of quotation marks or their omission can make!


Sweet! hopefully this is true and it will weed out a lot of the less then desirable customers.  I do after all care where my snakes end up...   :Good Job:

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## alikax

And when people who used this source as an inspiration to get into the hobby see what some breeders may think of them and get turned off by the whole deal, I guess you wouldn't have to worry about where your animals ended up because you'd have them all! 

*wink*

After going to a show today it seems like there's already a shortage of people looking to spend decent money for BP's (I mean breeders were basically trying to give their animals away it seemed), last thing I would think anyone interested in opening up a market for all the breeders who use this site to pimp their wares would do is go and insult people who could catch on to the dream and buy some morphs.

But hey if calling most of the potential customers who walk up to yer booth failures works for your business more power to ya. I'd just ask you as hobbyist who might want to sell some offspring in the future... please insult the mass of OUR fellow hobbyists in private messages if you feel the need to rather than on a public forum which serves to help attract people to our hobby. 

Thanks and Peace, and thanks to all the breeders who brought their animals to the Richmond show today even if you didn't get to sell as many as you would have liked... many cool breeders to talk to at the show.

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_nixer_ (10-25-2009),XGetSome (10-25-2009)

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> And when people who used this source as an inspiration to get into the hobby see what some breeders may think of them and get turned off by the whole deal


I think it is safe to say that if someone gets put off so much by someone elses opinion on a public snake forum, then it probably isn't a bad thing.  After all, someone so quick to be turned off probably wouldn't make it the 30 years it takes to care for one of these snakes anyway.   Right?   :Good Job: 




> But hey if calling most of the potential customers who walk up to yer booth failures works for your business more power to ya.


For the record, even though I keep getting accused of this, at no time have I used the term "failures."  While plenty of the "Type B" will in the end be considered  failures, not all of them will.   After all, anyone can change if they want to, and are willing to do what it takes. 

As far as what works for my business, I have absolutely no problem selling to nothing but snake nerds.  Lucky for me, there is more then enough snake nerd demand out there to keep up with what I can supply.   :Good Job:

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