# Ball Pythons > BP Pictures >  TOFFEE Ball PROVEN

## paul.angelides

Just a quick one with bad pics. I had a het x het breeding from the Toffee's 07 babies. 4 eggs resulting in 2 male Toffees 
I thought one male had problems as he came out early but he looks fine now. As you can see the white will turn into the dark toffee and the yelow will be the pale cream. They have the messed up pattern as do the hets and original male. As far as I know I am the only one with babies and to prove them out. I will get better pics as they develop. Thank you for looking.



Paul

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_Alexandra V_ (12-20-2010),cktansys (10-10-2009),_CoolioTiffany_ (10-03-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (04-07-2010),_Jsh_ (10-01-2009),_luna13_ (10-04-2009),onlyjays9p (10-03-2009),Rasmus Skaaning (12-06-2009),Simpson Balls (12-28-2009)

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## dreese88

So are the toffee's just another kind of albinism? I ask this because, obviously, these babies look like regular albinos and have red eyes, but I can't really tell if the original has red eyes on the Urban Python site.

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## Patrick Long

I dont buy it.


Toffees do not have red eyes (at least the pictures I have seen), and the pattern just isnt doint it for me.

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-16-2009)

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## Nigel4less

> i dont buy it.
> 
> 
> Toffees do not have red eyes.


+1

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## Freakie_frog

Doesn't look like the pic of the Toffee's I've seen.

I could be wrong but I think you've been had..
http://www.theurbanpython.com/toffee.html

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## mooingtricycle

Maybe those are the wrong image links?

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## Patrick Long

> Maybe those are the wrong image links?


no the images are titled toffeexxxx

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_mooingtricycle_ (09-29-2009)

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## mooingtricycle

> no the images are titled toffeexxxx


Ha Ha!  :Good Job:

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## JLC

> Maybe those are the wrong image links?


That's what I wondered...but he specifically states how the "white" and "yellow" will change color.  :Confused2:  

Seriously...those look like ordinary albinos.  Can we see pics of the parents?  Grandparents?  Do you have any documentation about the lineage of your breeding pair?  I think the market has been flooded with so many pos-het albinos sold as normals that it's becoming almost common-place to have surprise albinos pop up in clutches.

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## Freakie_frog

No way. Even as young animals they look way different. P.S Toffee and Candy are the same thing.. so far as we know

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## Patrick Long

> even as young animals they look way different..


I thought they were relating the Candy more to the Banana

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## Freakie_frog

> I thought they were relating the Candy more to the Banana


According to what I have been told when shopping for Het's the Candy is recessive, and when matures looks exactly like the toffee.. But we'd have to get Pete Khal Adam I know he's seen them to confirm.

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## Louis Kirkland

I know us'ns down here in the Mississippi be slow.....but we ain't dat slow.....is we?   :Weirdface: 

http://www.theurbanpython.com/images...l/toffee/4.jpg

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americangypsy (10-01-2009),Freakie_frog (09-29-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (10-16-2009),singingtothewheat (12-28-2009)

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## Patrick Long

> According to what I have been told when shopping for Het's the Candy is recessive, and when matures looks exactly like the toffee.. But we'd have to get Pete Khal Adam I know he's seen them to confirm.


Hmmm interesting.

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## blackcrystal22

Doesn't look like a Toffee ball to me...

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## Watever

Doesn't look like one either for me.

May be the picture doesn't do them justice, like with caramel, when they are young. Will see when they grow.

May be the Toffee is an albino with something else that didn't pop-up yet.

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## o.c.d

ive seen the toffee in person as well as lavender albino's and baby banana's and unfortunatley they dont resemble regular albinos as babies. even lavs are really high contrast. i think the toffe is the same as the candy.

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## Freakie_frog

> ive seen the toffee in person as well as lavender albino's and baby banana's and unfortunatley they dont resemble regular albinos as babies. even lavs are really high contrast. i think the toffe is the same as the candy.


Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the Toffee start in Canada and the Candy in the USA hence the different names

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## paul.angelides

The parents are from craig at Urban in Canada. They have the guarantee 2 them. If anyone is in doubt then your welcome 2 post all the other pics of all the other baby toffees produced so far! Like the banana, lav etc these will change with age. The pattern on the original male is the same in both my hets along with half the 50% hets and the toffees I produced. I will post pics of development but expect change in a year or so.

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## Patrick Long

Maybe the original toffee was bred to an albino, and you got two het albino babies LOL

Im not trying to be the stick in the mud, but DO YOU have pictures of other toffee babies?

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_Jason Bowden_ (10-16-2009),_N4S_ (09-29-2009),Nigel4less (09-29-2009)

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## N4S

Ya, I dont buy it either. 

The red eyes are the major kicker here IMO.

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## Freakie_frog

> If anyone is in doubt then your welcome 2 post all the other pics of all the other baby toffees produced so far! Like the banana, lav etc these will change with age.


More than happy too.. 

Here is a baby Candy/Toffee next to a Baby LA

Image curiosity of Mike Wilbanks (constrictors unlimited)


Baby Candy Image thanks to Pete Khal (Pete Khal reptiles)


Baby Banana ( thanks Kara and Kev of NERD)

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_RhacHead_ (09-29-2009)

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## waltah!

> The parents are from craig at Urban in Canada. They have the guarantee 2 them. If anyone is in doubt then your welcome 2 post all the other pics of all the other baby toffees produced so far! Like the banana, lav etc these will change with age. The pattern on the original male is the same in both my hets along with half the 50% hets and the toffees I produced. I will post pics of development but expect change in a year or so.


Will the eyes also change color?

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## tonkatoyman

Looking at the above picture the eyes are not red> :Good Job:  of the verified candys

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## extensive

i think you got some het albinos there man

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## AaronP

> The parents are from craig at Urban in Canada. They have the guarantee 2 them. If anyone is in doubt then your welcome 2 post all the other pics of all the other baby toffees produced so far! Like the banana, lav etc these will change with age. The pattern on the original male is the same in both my hets along with half the 50% hets and the toffees I produced. I will post pics of development but expect change in a year or so.


Maybe there was a (severe) screw up and they mixed up hets?

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## panthercz

From all the photo's I've seen baby candy's look like baby bananas/coral glows.
That just looks like a plain albino to me...

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## Freakie_frog

Well I'm glad that whatever it is proved out for you. Having never had to photograph a baby Toffee myself I'll admit that  it is possiable that your camera washed out the color. I know how hard some morphs can be to photograph.. 

Best of luck..

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## Kevin_Hornby

Just figured i'd through in the reference. This picture is directly from http://www.theurbanpython.com/

http://www.theurbanpython.com/images...l/toffee/4.jpg

This snake clearly does not have red eyes.

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## ladywhipple02

Can anyone get in touch with Craig at Urban Python? He might like to know about this thread, as his name is in it and someone is portraying these snakes as being his toffees.

Might be nice to hear it straight from the horse's mouth....?

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_sg1trogdor_ (09-29-2009)

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## Freakie_frog

> Can anyone get in touch with Craig at Urban Python? He might like to know about this thread, as his name is in it and someone is portraying these snakes as being his toffees.
> 
> Might be nice to hear it straight from the horse's mouth....?


I don't see a need for that if the OP wishes to have Craig come and set the record straight so be it. I'd love to know for one.. Cause I'm looking and getting in on the Candy project and would be interesting to hear from the guy that produce the hets that yes they hatch out white and orange and then turn topee  and khaki. Is it possible sure..

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## 2kdime

Bad camera skills....maybe.

But I agree, looks a lot like an Albino.








> i think you got some het albinos there man





> Well I'm glad that whatever it is proved out for you. Having never had to photograph a baby Toffee myself I'll admit that  it is possiable that your camera washed out the color. I know how hard some morphs can be to photograph.. 
> 
> Best of luck..

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## Jared

> Can anyone get in touch with Craig at Urban Python? He might like to know about this thread, as his name is in it and someone is portraying these snakes as being his toffees.
> 
> Might be nice to hear it straight from the horse's mouth....?


Yeah..  That's a good idea, as it looks to be that someone is trying to pull something over on someone.  lol   Lots of possibilities there  :Smile:   :Very Happy:

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## SPJ

Those are regular albinos. 
Hope you didn't pay het toffee prices for those het albinos.

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## monk90222

I've seen candy ball pythons in person, het candy's and the original adult candy.....those look like regular albinos....

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## Watever

> I don't see a need for that if the OP wishes to have Craig come and set the record straight so be it. I'd love to know for one.. Cause I'm looking and getting in on the Candy project and would be interesting to hear from the guy that produce the hets that yes they hatch out white and orange and then turn topee  and khaki. Is it possible sure..


I talked to the Urban Python at the CRBE, that was 2 weeks ago. And haven't proved it at that time, no clutch was successful.

This is the first MORPH coming out. He bought them from THEM. Also when you were buying het, The Urban Python added a guarantee on them, so if the gene never prove, you get your money back.

Could the tofee been bred to an Albino, probably not. I asked them if they were trying to get any combo and the answer was NOT YET. They were trying to prove the gene first with NORMALS females.

So unless one of the normal female is a het albino and they didn't know, and by chance the pair was 50% and both proved out, this is a Toffee or the Toffee is an albino + something or an albino who's development went bad or something.

*CAN'T PEOPLE SEE THIS IS PROBABLY A BIG STEP FORWARD IN PROVING THIS GENE ?*

There is no reason to say bad things on this.
But until it's color change to the color of a toffee, nothing is proved yet.

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_Jsh_ (07-31-2010),mrs.twistedtails (10-05-2009)

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## waltah!

> *CAN'T PEOPLE SEE THIS IS PROBABLY A BIG STEP FORWARD IN PROVING THIS GENE ?*


Albinos were proven many years ago :Wink: 
I don't think anyone is doubting the OP having purchased het toffees from Craig. There's a better chance that somewhere along the line the albino genes were involved than the animals pictured here turning colors (including eye color) into a Toffee. I think the Toffee ball is amazing, but I think it's odd that even Urban hasn't proven it out yet.
On a side note, I would love for it to prove to be a Toffee. It's for sure one of my favorite looking snakes and I can only imagine the combos!

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## m00kfu

That's a toughie.  Being that it's assumed that the candy and toffee are the same thing, and the candy hatchlings have red eyes (at least in the pictures I've seen), I think there's a good chance this actually is a toffee.  I know there's quite a change in coloring from hatchling to adult for the candies.

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AlanDavidExotics (09-30-2009)

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## MarkS

Actually, I've seen pictures of what were claimed to be FRESHLY HATCHED baby candy balls, and they looked like albinos to me.  Apparently they don't start to color up for a while.  I'd like to see pictures of these again in a month or two.

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## waltah!

> That's a toughie.  Being that it's assumed that the candy and toffee are the same thing, and the candy hatchlings have red eyes (at least in the pictures I've seen), I think there's a good chance this actually is a toffee.  I know there's quite a change in coloring from hatchling to adult for the candies.


I hope it really is a Toffee. I'd love to see them being proven as it would be a great thing for the hobby. 
I want to make sure that the OP knows that I don't doubt him one little bit. It could just be that it's impossible for me to wrap my head around a change that huge. Maybe i'm just in denial cause I can't afford one! :Razz:

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## JLC

> There is no reason to say bad things on this.
> But until it's color change to the color of a toffee, nothing is proved yet.


_No one has said anything bad at all_....just that those hatchlings looks exactly like regular baby albinos.  I know I'm not alone when I say I'll be very happy to be proven wrong and eat my words on the apparent phenotype of those snakes.

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## RhacHead

> _no one has said anything bad at all_....just that those hatchlings looks exactly like regular baby albinos.  I know i'm not alone when i say i'll be very happy to be proven wrong and eat my words on the apparent phenotype of those snakes.


x2 :Wink:

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## Bill Buchman

I am not a big big fan of the adult Toffee -- bland coloring and unknown combo potential for such an expensive animal -- and a RISKY project with regards from recouping ones' investment in my opinion.  

Truth be told, I/we have yet to see an AUTHENTIC/RELIABLE photo of a hatchling Toffee.  I find it odd that Craig has not made those photos readily avaiLble on every forum if only to avoid the apparent growing apprehension about what was "THE" next big morph 2-3 years ago.  

As they say,."That was then and this is now".  I don't know Craig, but my advice, given the current state of his project is... SPIN CONTROL -- you need to partake in some.  :Good Job: 

The bigger question than whether the Toffee, Candy, Paragon et all are compatible/the same morphs -- it is whether the Toffee exists as a captive bred proven morph???  My 2 cents.  :Smile:

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## lillyorchid

Those are not Toffee's or Candy's. Toffee's and Candy's do not look like albinos babies. They looks like the adults but in baby form. I had the pleasure of seeing and working with Pete's Candy male at his shop a few years ago when he first started producing het Candy's. A Candy and a Toffee do not look at all the same. They are two completely different colors. I too think they are albino X's of some sort. They could be possible het Candy or het Toffee, but you will have to breed them together to find out.

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## sg1trogdor

> I thought they were relating the Candy more to the Banana


Thats what I thought not to mention they look nothing like a toffee.

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## SUPERBALLS

> Those are not Toffee's or Candy's. Toffee's and Candy's do not look like albinos babies. They looks like the adults but in baby form. I had the pleasure of seeing and working with Pete's Candy male at his shop a few years ago when he first started producing het Candy's. A Candy and a Toffee do not look at all the same. They are two completely different colors. I too think they are albino X's of some sort. They could be possible het Candy or het Toffee, but you will have to breed them together to find out.


BAM!!!,  you nailed it on the head, i couldnt agree more! sorry to the o.p. but there is no chance that animal is a toffee, but still a nice albino just a very expensive way of making one!!!!

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## Beardedragon

Ill belive it once they mature. 

Also, why do people say the Candy and Toffee are the same morph, to me they look nothing alike at all?

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## paul.angelides

Just a couple of things as I'm running for work.
Has someone proved the Toffee and Candy the same??? The Ultramel and Caramel look simular but are not the same??? 
Craig told me none of the females produced babies this year and they were waiting to see what I produced so if they have never been produced how does everyone know what they will look like as babies?? The Banana is a million miles away as an adult from the baby..
And these don't look like regular albinos in the flesh, Lav like yes but there is also the PATTERN difference that is in the hets and half of all the other babies I produced which also seems strange!!
If it colours up then great, if it doesn't then either way, its proven and as I have a guarantee stating "The long and short of it is we have no doubt that the Toffee Ball is a simple recessive mutation and we will stand behind that with a full money back guarantee" then I get my money back!!

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AlanDavidExotics (09-30-2009)

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## ReptileGirlsofCanada

I am not trying to be rude at all, but that does not look like a toffee at all... if I would you, I would be emailing who ever you got those hets from and getting your full money back. Or maybe seeing if they for some reason were mistaken when they gave you the hets... and maybe marked it wrong or something... But those look like (I am pretty sure they are) Albinos.

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## m00kfu

> Ill belive it once they mature. 
> 
> Also, why do people say the Candy and Toffee are the same morph, to me they look nothing alike at all?


Adult candy:


Adult toffee:


VPI's burgundy albino:


From the photos they all look pretty similar to me.

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## Nordinho

I think we'll have to wait till the babies ate a few rats. 

Blonde/Caramel Retics hatch out like normal albino's, but turn Caramel as they grow.

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## Lucas339

idk about this....if he truly bought them from the source, then maybe they are.  guess only time will tell.

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## shaunwithbite

i guess only time will tell  :Smile:

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## Envied Reptiles

I bet its legit. I also find it disappointing the way in which some of those who dont are all but accusing the original poster of trying to pull some sort of scam with his photos.

Food for thought: 
At one point we all thought the world was flat, then the world was the center of the universe, then cigarettes were good for your health, etc etc... In this case were talking about the first ever successfully breeding/hatchings of this morph and people are quick to cry foul. Hell, do we even know if there is a super spider yet? And they have been around for a decade...

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AlanDavidExotics (09-30-2009),_irishanaconda_ (10-09-2009),mrs.twistedtails (10-05-2009)

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## JLC

> If it colours up then great, if it doesn't then either way, its proven and as I have a guarantee stating "The long and short of it is we have no doubt that the Toffee Ball is a simple recessive mutation and we will stand behind that with a full money back guarantee" then I get my money back!!


As I said before...I for one, will be thrilled to be proven wrong.  :Smile: 




> I bet its legit. I also find it disappointing the way in which some of those who dont are all but accusing the original poster of trying to pull some sort of scam with his photos.


And again...I haven't seen anyone say anything bad.  No one has accused or even implied that Paul is anything but honest with his belief in what he's hatched.  And while some have suggested that maybe the OP was scammed, that's just because they don't know who Craig is.  I seriously doubt that Craig would "mix up" hets...especially hets as important as these.  And I'm SURE he would not intentionally misrepresent an animal.  

But all we can go on is what we SEE...and what most of us SEE are absolutely normal albinos.  Very pretty ones, with a nice reduced pattern trait.  I've heard/seen a number of stories over the last couple of years of folks hatching out albinos and/or albino combos when they had NO CLUE that either parent was het for albino.  So, what pops into _my_ mind, is that somewhere in the ancestry of those hets, (and I'm guessing they're sibs or otherwise closely related) was an unknown het-albino animal that has passed on its genes. 

What has NOT popped into my mind is that either Paul or Craig are in any way being dishonest about any of this.

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## Denial

> I think we'll have to wait till the babies ate a few rats. 
> 
> Blonde/Caramel Retics hatch out like normal albino's, but turn Caramel as they grow.


I know nothing of candys or toffees but nordinho does have a good point if you see a caramel albino retic hatchling you would swear it was nothing more then a normal albino but when they start to grow there colors change alot and they turn that amazing caramel color. I believe prehistoric pets has a video somewhere showing a baby and a yearling or adult in comparison. 

To the original poster if they do change colors thats awesome and congrats. But if they are just normal albinos you at least have a guarantee,

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## Nordinho

Check out this video from Prehistoric Pets. This makes sense..

YouTube - Color Changing Python

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americangypsy (10-01-2009),_Denial_ (09-30-2009)

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## twistedtails

I'm gonna side with the under dog in this whole thing(if he proves to be right, he will definately be the top dawg  :Wink: ).  I know you all have seen the thread about a spider that all of a sudden lost all yellow and brown pigment after one shed....Right??  Why do you think it is impossible for this snake to change over a year or so?  I have a pastel female who has changed tremendously over the last few sheds.  Not to mention, the lavender albino will change a good deal over time also.  You all don't have to hate him because you covet HIS goods.  Wish him well!  Remember, if it proves out, he will be picking and choosing who they go to.  Most important of all he will set "the" price!!!!!  Nice babies man!  Hope it works out for you. :Good Job:

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## AaronP

> I'm gonna side with the under dog in this whole thing(if he proves to be right, he will definately be the top dawg ).  I know you all have seen the thread about a spider that all of a sudden lost all yellow and brown pigment after one shed....Right??  Why do you think it is impossible for this snake to change over a year or so?  I have a pastel female who has changed tremendously over the last few sheds.  Not to mention, the lavender albino will change a good deal over time also.  You all don't have to hate him because you covet HIS goods.  Wish him well!  Remember, if it proves out, he will be picking and choosing who they go to.  Most important of all he will set "the" price!!!!!  Nice babies man!  Hope it works out for you.


I think you're missing everyone's point.  No one is hating on him for "Proving" the "Toffee", we're saying that to us it looks like a regular albino, we'll all be glad to be proven wrong, but in the mean time some of us think it is a albino.

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## twistedtails

> I think you're missing everyone's point.  No one is hating on him for "Proving" the "Toffee", we're saying that to us it looks like a regular albino, we'll all be glad to be proven wrong, but in the mean time some of us think it is a albino.


I thought the same thing to be honest when I first saw it also.  The first thing that came to mind is that maybe the toffee was a fluke of nature and maybe it was an undeveloped albino or something.  For people to say they hope he didn't pay toffee price for it and all is wrong.  If I was in his place and payed a great deal of money for something that may not be what it seems, I would want the support of others on this forum.  That has to be nerve racking for him to want to see a visual toffee from the get go, see an albino, and then have everyone tell him it sound like he got screwed.

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## Wh00h0069

Grats!! Can't wait to see updated pics as it matures.

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## Toronto Python Gurus

I have seen the Toffee in person at the CRBE a couple weeks ago and they do kinda have red eyes, but they are more of like a ruby red rather than the red eyes albinos have.  From the OP's first pics those are definately Albinos I don't see them changing in colour that much as they mature, but I guess only time will tell

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## blackcrystal22

> I'm gonna side with the under dog in this whole thing(if he proves to be right, he will definately be the top dawg ).  I know you all have seen the thread about a spider that all of a sudden lost all yellow and brown pigment after one shed....Right??  Why do you think it is impossible for this snake to change over a year or so?  I have a pastel female who has changed tremendously over the last few sheds.  Not to mention, the lavender albino will change a good deal over time also.  You all don't have to hate him because you covet HIS goods.  Wish him well!  Remember, if it proves out, he will be picking and choosing who they go to.  Most important of all he will set "the" price!!!!!  Nice babies man!  Hope it works out for you.


I don't understand.. no one is siding anything. We're giving opinions as to if it's a toffee or not because we do not see a toffee there, we're not saying he's wrong, we're just saying what we see from the experience of everyone here.

I'd like someone who has produced Toffees previously to chime in and show us their hatchling pictures, that would help I think.

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## MarkS

> I'd like someone who has produced Toffees previously to chime in and show us their hatchling pictures, that would help I think.


Well, that's kind of the whole point of this thread, he IS the first to produce them from this particular line.  Whether or not he got what he thinks he has will have to wait to see if they color up or not.

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_TheReptileEnthusiast_ (09-30-2009)

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## TheReptileEnthusiast

> Yeah..  That's a good idea, as it looks to be that someone is trying to pull something over on someone.  lol   Lots of possibilities there


I think this ^ is the statement some are calling a little harsh or accusatory. Also, the OP has already stated that there are no other photos of newborn toffees because these are the first produced. The other photos that were posted were candies, which cannot be proven as the same as toffees until someone breeds a candy to a toffee. Also, none of the photos of candies appeared to be fresh hatchlings, as has also been previously stated.

Good luck to the OP, and can't wait to see some photos after a few sheds!

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_twistedtails_ (09-30-2009)

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## Toronto Python Gurus

> I don't understand.. no one is siding anything. We're giving opinions as to if it's a toffee or not because we do not see a toffee there, we're not saying he's wrong, we're just saying what we see from the experience of everyone here.
> 
> I'd like someone who has produced Toffees previously to chime in and show us their hatchling pictures, that would help I think.


Craig Stewart from The Urban Python here is Canada is the only one I know who is working with Toffees, I think this uncoming breeding season will be his first in proving the gene out(if he does) I know that in the past he has done alot of Toffee x Normal breedings just to make lots of hets.  I'm sure he has mixed the Toffee with other morphs to make them hets aswell but you would have to ask him to find out.  

He acquired the Toffee in 2005 and bred it for the first time in 2007 to make the hets.  Now those hets would be from a Toffee x Normal breeding as far as I know.  To make a Toffee from picking up a pair of those 2007 hets it might take a few years for them to get to breeding size than prove them out.  I think if anyone would have done it, it would have been him and I haven't heard/seen anything yet from him.  I think this 2009/2010 season will be the first season he proves one out if he does.

Now I'm not sure if the OP got the hets directly from Craig at Urban or if he bought them off someone who says they got them from Craig.  Either way I don't think Craig let many of them go not to mention the $5,500/male $13,500/female price tags. which i think he sold last year.  Maybe the OP got scammed and got het albinos, or maybe he really did get the Hets directly from Craig and had het albinos already and got them mixed up some how.  Who knows even a Het albino x Het Toffee could have produced an Albino I mean nobody really knows the Genetics behind the Toffee yet anyways I mean the original Toffee was a CH baby that Craig got from the US that the US got from Africa, these are just ideas.  But in the end to get to the bottom of this the best thing to do would be to contact Craig himself becuase nobody would know better than him and until someone talks to him everyone is just throwing out ideas/guessing.

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## icygirl

Not that I know much about this morph, but here's something that confuses me about this thread...




> If it colours up then great, if it doesn't then either way, its proven and as I have a guarantee stating "The long and short of it is we have no doubt that the Toffee Ball is a simple recessive mutation and we will stand behind that with a full money back guarantee" then I get my money back!!


How can Urban Python be 100% sure that toffee is simple recessive, if they have only produced "hets" and no actual toffees? Unless they are assuming that Toffee and Candy are the same thing?

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## Patrick Long

I really want to eat my words and say

"HOT DAMN thats a bad arse TOFFEE"

But the way i see it, its just reduced pattern albinos.

No one is bashing, no one is hating. We are just in Disbelief.

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_AaronP_ (09-30-2009),_lillyorchid_ (09-30-2009),_Toronto Python Gurus_ (09-30-2009)

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## SlitherinSisters

> Not that I know much about this morph, but here's something that confuses me about this thread...
> 
> 
> 
> How can Urban Python be 100% sure that toffee is simple recessive, if they have only produced "hets" and no actual toffees? Unless they are assuming that Toffee and Candy are the same thing?


That's what I was thinking. It could be one of those, what I would call paradox morphs, that shows up in Africa and the "morph" dies with that one snake. For example you breed two paradox albinos, that look like they could be a new morph, and you never prove it out, you never get hets-you might think you have hets, you try and try to prove out the hets, and nothing..... *sigh* (just look at all the unproved one-of-a-kind imported "morphs" ralph davis has on his website, some of those have been in the making for years and still aren't proven-IMO paradox morphs)

I'm excited to see if Craig gets any toffees this coming season.

----------


## TheReptileEnthusiast

> I really want to eat my words and say
> 
> "HOT DAMN thats a bad arse TOFFEE"
> 
> But the way i see it, its just reduced pattern albinos.
> 
> No one is bashing, no one is hating. We are just in Disbelief.


I don't feel you bashed anyone Patrick, but there has been at least one comment from another poster that I would classify as bashing.

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## Toronto Python Gurus

In my opinion Hets are normals until proven out.  I don't buy hets

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_monk90222_ (09-30-2009)

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## Turbo Serpent

They look like Albinos.... but who knows. they could possibly be a new line of the Burgundy Albino in which case the eyes would be red/ruby.

We can only tell from what pictures we have, but as time goes on that animal definitely could color up.

Good luck on proving them out, but dont forget that money back guarantee just in case.  :Wink:

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## twistedtails

> I don't feel you bashed anyone Patrick, but there has been at least one comment from another poster that I would classify as bashing.


I'm glad somebody seen it the way I did.  Oh yeah, Pat is a big basher also.......J/K Pat!

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## Toronto Python Gurus

I just talked to the Urban Python, they said that they haven't had anything come out from het x het pairings, and they did try to breed the Toffee to Het Toffee females but none of them laid because they were still too small.

they let 5 het pairs go in 2007

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## albinosunlimited

I am no expert on the toffee project But as a betting man I would put any amount down that those are toffees and in a month or so when they chance alot of people will be have to take their foot out of their mouth.


Any way I am very excited to have a pair of hets 

Jon

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AlanDavidExotics (09-30-2009)

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## Beardedragon

> Adult candy:
> 
> 
> Adult toffee:
> 
> 
> VPI's burgundy albino:
> 
> 
> From the photos they all look pretty similar to me.




Thank you! Those look alike, all the photos I had seen earlier of the candy looked alot more neon and like a Banana.

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## daniel1983

Color changing morphs are nothing new(even with eyes). It would be interesting to see it in ball pythons. Craig seems to like the color chagers with the black pearl leopard geckos....a changing snake would fit right in.

A time lapse of the change would be neat to see so be sure to snap a bunch of pictures along the way.

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## roadrunner

Congrats on the snake. I spoke with someone who actually saw the Candy as it crawled out of the egg(maybe the same morph and maybe not) and apparently they did look like regular albinos. The ball python world has alot of amazing mutations that defy all expectations and PRE concieved notions. I tend to express my thoughts on what i think is "gonna" happen(who expected the Caramel spyder???? i mean where is the purple?....anyways, sore subject..LOL)  Looking forward to seeing picts as the snake changes....

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## RegiusCo

Big congrats Paul, can't wait to see them mature into their Toffee dress! Thanks fro sharing!  :Good Job:

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## Seneschal

Well, congratulations!! I really, really look forward to pics as it grows! Can you promise pics every month or so?  :Please:  Thank you!

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## jsmorphs2

> More than happy too.. 
> 
> 
> 
> Baby Candy Image thanks to Pete Khal (Pete Khal reptiles)





> Originally Posted by m00kfu  View Post
> Adult candy:


If these are both Candies dosen't this show the color change right here, plain as day? I can imagine with out much of a stretch (thanks to these pics) that these "albino" looking babies could go through this color change. 

I'm looking forward to updates on these guys. Congrats!  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:

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## MarkieJ

Looking at the pics from the original post, the eyes of these baby toffees are a darker red than an albinos.  An albinos eyes are a light pink, whereas these are a ruby red.  I hope my fellow BP.netters haven't scared you off of posting pictures as these stunners develop...  Also why was the kingsnake thread deleted?

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## AlanDavidExotics

Congrats on producing the first Toffee :Salute: !!! If this was Brians post (or Ralph, Tracy, Kevin, ects for that matter) and he produced the first baby Toffee I wonder how many people would say "he made a mistake", "those are regular albinos", "thats not a toffee" , or "candys look-like this so toffees must look-like that"... Not everyone on this forum are trying to scam, even the ADMIN/MODS are hinting the OP is lying or there must be some mistake...relax people these are ball people, that happen to change color while aging.

Remember MOST morphs dont look the same as adults!!! And I do mean MOST!!!

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## AaronP

> Congrats on producing the first Toffee!!! If this was Brians post (or Ralph, Tracy, Kevin, ects for that matter) and he produced the first baby Toffee I wonder how many people would say "he made a mistake", "those are regular albinos", "thats not a toffee" , or "candys look-like this so toffees must look-like that".


In all do respect I do not believe Ralph, Tracey, Kevin or Barcyzk would post an animal that looks like an Albino and say:
_
"Look guys I proved out the Toffee!!!"_

They'd probably see the eggs pip and go "...What the crap" and start checking their breeding records to make sure there wasn't a mistake, then they'd probably call a few people and after finding out no one else has had a successful clutch yet, they would likely wait and see and once/if the color begins to change to what you expect a toffee to look like then they _MAY_ post their findings on the internet after being able to decisively say *"This is a Toffee"*.

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_Louis Kirkland_ (09-30-2009),_PythonWallace_ (10-05-2009),reixox (10-05-2009),_Toronto Python Gurus_ (10-01-2009),_Turbo Serpent_ (09-30-2009)

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## JLC

> ...even the ADMIN/MODS are hinting the OP is lying or there must be some mistake...relax people these are ball people, that happen to change color while aging.
> 
> Remember MOST morphs dont look the same as adults!!! And I do mean MOST!!!


PLEASE show me where either myself, or any other admin or mod hinted or implied that the OP is lying.  YES, I did say there MAY be a mistake somewhere along the lines...but that in no way implies anything negative about the OP.  Those seriously look like ordinary albinos to me, from the pictures provided...and I simply offered up a _reasonable_ explanation about WHY they might look that way, without any attempt at deception on the part of the OP or the original seller of the hets. 

And I am fully aware that newly hatched ball pythons can change as they grow...some morphs this is more dramatic than in others.  But no where in the ball python world that I've seen so far has there ever been a case of a change as significant as what the OP is suggesting.  The closest that I'm aware of might be the banana ball...where the babies are crazy-colored and then grow into somewhat dull looking adults....but even in that case, you can see the relationship between the baby and the adult.  And I've never seen a case where the eye color changes.  

While I can understand the frustration of those who are tired of the somewhat pessimistic response to the original pictures, I take offense at our words being so twisted and misconstrued.

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rabernet (09-30-2009),_Toronto Python Gurus_ (10-01-2009),_waltah!_ (09-30-2009)

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## waltah!

> Congrats on producing the first Toffee!!! If this was Brians post (or Ralph, Tracy, Kevin, ects for that matter) and he produced the first baby Toffee I wonder how many people would say "he made a mistake", "those are regular albinos", "thats not a toffee" , or "candys look-like this so toffees must look-like that"... Not everyone on this forum are trying to scam, even the ADMIN/MODS are hinting the OP is lying or there must be some mistake...relax people these are ball people, that happen to change color while aging.
> 
> Remember MOST morphs dont look the same as adults!!! And I do mean MOST!!!


I don't recall anyone saying the OP was trying to "scam" anyone. Everyone gave their opinions one way or another. It seems odd to me that even Urban has not produced a toffee, but the folks who bought the hets are producing them. Maybe they've just had bad luck. Could be. If these don't prove to in fact be Toffees it may be time for some to accept the fact that it was just a really cool looking normal het carrying the albino genes, kind of like a paradox. 
If these do prove to be Toffees then that's great! I would rather be wrong and see someone prove these out as the Toffee just may be my favorite looking snake. 
Either way the OP has some great looking snakes there. 
As far as the Candy being the same as Toffee, I don't think they look exactly the same, but are similar. Kinda like Cinnies and Black Pastels or Lessers and Butters. Just my opinion.

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## AlanDavidExotics

> In all do respect I do not believe Ralph, Tracey, Kevin or Barcyzk would post an animal that looks like an Albino and say:
> _
> "Look guys I proved out the Toffee!!!"_
> 
> They'd probably see the eggs pip and go "...What the crap" and start checking their breeding records to make sure there wasn't a mistake, then they'd probably call a few people and after finding out no one else has had a successful clutch yet, they would likely wait and see and once/if the color begins to change to what you expect a toffee to look like then they _MAY_ post their findings on the internet after being able to decisively say *"This is a Toffee"*.



How many of us (SMALL TIME BREEDERS) could wait a few months, watch the color change...then post... "Here is the first Toffee... Look how the color changes over time"... realistically most (including myself) cant. 

Nobody (you, me, or the next breeder) wants to hear that their 'prize project' must be wrong by people who have no idea what they're talking about... A few weeks ago I was reading a post from some saying that Justin's Lavender babies are regular albinos, because they have no purple. Its easy to mistake a baby high contrast albino and a Lavender... How do you (not you in particular) know that baby toffees don't look like regular albinos?... Nobody has ever seen one!!! The Original Toffee was already its adult coloration when Craig received it.

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## WingedWolfPsion

If we assume that the brown/toffee color develops over time, it really does explain all of the differences.  Perhaps some oxidizing effect?  

For example, if the eyes are light red/pink now, and brown color develops over time, this color would darken the eyes along with the rest of the snake, producing the darker ruby red color seen in the older animal.

They do look just like albinos to me, too, but I'm listening to the folks who say there is a mutation in retics which may be similar, and the baby retics look like albinos when they hatch.

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## rabernet

> Congrats on producing the first Toffee!!! If this was Brians post (or Ralph, Tracy, Kevin, ects for that matter) and he produced the first baby Toffee I wonder how many people would say "he made a mistake", "those are regular albinos", "thats not a toffee" , or "candys look-like this so toffees must look-like that"... Not everyone on this forum are trying to scam, *even the ADMIN/MODS are hinting the OP is lying or there must be some mistake...*relax people these are ball people, that happen to change color while aging.
> 
> Remember MOST morphs dont look the same as adults!!! And I do mean MOST!!!


I haven't participated in this thread until now, but I do want to comment on this. Why is it, that when a person's name is in red or green, they are suddenly not allowed to participate in a thread without having their position thrown up in their face? 

I haven't seen a single staff member imply that the OP was lying about the history of those animals' parentage as he believes it, and to insinuate that they have is just low, in my opinion. 

I don't know if people do it to get "cool points" for singling out the staff or what compels them to do so when they disagree with a staff member's individual OPINION and participation in a thread. 

Disclaimer - the above rant is my own personal opinion and may or may not be shared by the rest of the staff. I speak only for myself and how I see things from my chair in GA. 
 :Soapbox2: 


To the OP - congrats on beautiful hatchlings - please do keep us updated with progression pictures as they mature!

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dr del (10-01-2009),_dsirkle_ (09-30-2009),_Eventide_ (09-30-2009),_Royal Morphz_ (10-01-2009),_Spaniard_ (10-01-2009),_Toronto Python Gurus_ (10-01-2009),_waltah!_ (09-30-2009)

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## Freakie_frog

> How do you (not you in particular) know that baby toffees don't look like regular albinos?... Nobody has ever seen one!!! The Original Toffee was already its adult coloration when Craig received it.


I 100% totally agree we don't know what a baby look like. So the question remains how can the OP know with 100% unchanging certainty that what he produced is in fact a Toffee. Remember 


> Nobody has ever seen one!!


...

Lets see how it matures in say 2 months.. 6 months.. a year then lets see what it looks like if it completely changes color great I want a pair of visuals.

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## Patrick Long

> If this was Brians post (or Ralph, Tracy, Kevin, ects for that matter)


I would have still said, it looks JUST like an albino. BECAUSE IT DOES!!!!!!

I dont know why your gettin your ruffles all feathered (ha!). It would help all of us, NOT just you if it were in fact a Toffee.

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## AlanDavidExotics

> PLEASE show me where either myself, or any other admin or mod hinted or implied that the OP is lying.  YES, I did say there MAY be a mistake somewhere along the lines...but that in no way implies anything negative about the OP.  Those seriously look like ordinary albinos to me, from the pictures provided...and I simply offered up a _reasonable_ explanation about WHY they might look that way, without any attempt at deception on the part of the OP or the original seller of the hets. 
> 
> And I am fully aware that newly hatched ball pythons can change as they grow...some morphs this is more dramatic than in others.  But no where in the ball python world that I've seen so far has there ever been a case of a change as significant as what the OP is suggesting.  The closest that I'm aware of might be the banana ball...where the babies are crazy-colored and then grow into somewhat dull looking adults....but even in that case, you can see the relationship between the baby and the adult.  And I've never seen a case where the eye color changes.  
> 
> While I can understand the frustration of those who are tired of the somewhat pessimistic response to the original pictures, I take offense at our words being so twisted and misconstrued.


JCL You yourself just said " YES, I did say there MAY be a mistake somewhere along the lines"... and thats  all im saying...Some ADMIN/MODS where hinting that there most be a mistake and some users (members in general) where saying maybe he GOT scammed (not necessarily The OP trying to scam)

This reminds when there was all this drama about MYSTICS...and how they couldnt be a new line of PHANTOM or how Sulfurs werent fires...

I guess... maybe the OP should have waited to post pictures of the progress, but that takes the fun out of it  :Taz:

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## rabernet

> JCL You yourself just said " YES, I did say there MAY be a mistake somewhere along the lines"... and thats  all im saying...Some ADMIN/MODS where hinting that there most be a mistake and some users (members in general) where saying maybe he GOT scammed (not necessarily The OP trying to scam)
> 
> This reminds when there was all this drama about MYSTICS...and how they couldnt be a new line of PHANTOM or how Sulfurs werent fires...
> 
> I guess... maybe the OP should have waited to post pictures of the progress, but that takes the fun out of it





> even the ADMIN/MODS are hinting the OP is lying


And that shows that Judy called him a liar........where?

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## sg1trogdor

I just don't see all of the white on those babies eventually turning to a brown toffee color.  I hope I am wrong not only for the sake of the OP's wallet but for the entirety of the hobby.

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## AlanDavidExotics

My feathers are all plucked lol... Id be heated if everyone told me my baby toffee is a only a regular albino... and maybe I should call the breeder back to get my money!!! Only because nobody has ever seen a baby TOFFEE


BELIEVE ME... I'M NOT UPSET, I'M NOT GOING TO LOOSE ANY SLEEP, THIS IS MY HOBBY... THIS IS A DEBATE... I'M A DEBATER...ITS JUST WHAT I DO.

I DONT HAVE ANY HARD FEELINGS FOR ANYONE...I WISH EVERYONE LAVENDER ALBINO PIEDS (MY DREAM SNAKE)

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## Raptor

> Adult candy:
> 
> 
> Adult toffee:
> 
> 
> VPI's burgundy albino:
> 
> 
> From the photos they all look pretty similar to me.


The Candy and Burgundy albino look similar, but the toffee stands out. It has a much different pattern than the other two.

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_DesignerBP_ (10-14-2009)

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## AlanDavidExotics

> And that shows that Judy called him a liar........where?



Finish writing the rest of my quote! You left out the important part... Theres plenty more ADMINT/MODS then just JUDY right? Relax :Good Job:

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## MarkS

Maybe the OP should start a poll to see who thinks it's a toffee and who thinks its a regular albino.  It might be kind of a fun thread to keep coming back to with updated pictures.  

Personally, I think he nailed it and I predict that those two albino looking snakes will eventually color up to look just like the mature toffee.

 :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:

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AlanDavidExotics (09-30-2009)

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## waltah!

> Finish writing the rest of my quote! You left out the important part... Theres plenty more ADMINT/MODS then just JUDY right? Relax


If not Judy then it could be me then. I feel that I've explained myself pretty well. Next time I make a post I'll be sure to run it by you first.  :Good Job: 
Names in Red and Green are members too.

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## rabernet

> Finish writing the rest of my quote! You left out the important part... Theres plenty more ADMINT/MODS then just JUDY right? Relax


Judy is the only admin that has participated in this thread up until this point, and you were addressing her post and called out admins AND mods as calling the OP a liar (and none have). 

I'm very relaxed!  :Smile:

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## AlanDavidExotics

Rabernet. 

On my screen it says your an ADMIN and also Waltah a MOD and a bunch of others.So I just generalized ADMIN/MODS (im not saying you two, just giving an example of the first 2 names that I saw that wasnt JUDY'S)...I also said HINTING a mistake.. I didnt say Judy called so-n-so a liar. My message was not directed at any one personally (Judy, You, or Waltah). Its only purpose was to show that almost 7 pages of post were almost all negative. Obviously, not every post!!! There are a bunch of other supporters!!! Im sure a bunch of people feel the way I do. (maybe maybe not). There were a bunch of people that also said. "they'd like to see pics as it grows" which I FULL agree with!!! I think comments like those are what helps the community to grow... not comments like "You got scammed" 

P.S. Im not going to reread the 7 other pages to find the exact quotes or who the posters are.

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_irishanaconda_ (10-19-2009)

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## Turbo Serpent

> Its only purpose was to show that almost 7 pages of post were almost all negative. Obviously, not every post!!! There are a bunch of other supporters!!!


Until it looks like the toffee not many people are going to believe it, that is how I feel and I am sure many other of the 'Pessimists' feel as well.

No negativity just disbelief as someone else said earlier.  :Good Job:

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## AlanDavidExotics

> Until it looks like the toffee not many people are going to believe it, that is how I feel and I am sure many other of the 'Pessimists' feel as well.
> 
> No negativity just disbelief as someone else said earlier.


I totally understand/agree with that... Thats the same way I felt!!! I just didnt like all the other comments about the OP needing to get his money back, return the snake, or even THATS NOT A TOFFEE. Esp, since theres not another baby toffee to compair it to. I could understand if other pictures show toffee babies looking a lot different.

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## AaronP

Whoops See below.

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## AaronP

> How many of us (SMALL TIME BREEDERS) could wait a few months, watch the color change...then post... "Here is the first Toffee... Look how the color changes over time"... realistically most (including myself) cant. 
> 
> Nobody (you, me, or the next breeder) wants to hear that their 'prize project' must be wrong by people who have no idea what they're talking about... A few weeks ago I was reading a post from some saying that Justin's Lavender babies are regular albinos, because they have no purple. Its easy to mistake a baby high contrast albino and a Lavender...


If it upsets you then maybe you aren't taking everyone's level of experience into consideration?  Justin is a good friend of mine and he is well aware that as hatchlings someone could easily misidentify the Lavender Albino to be a "regular" albino.  That said how many people do you think could pick out a butter from a Lesser Platinum?  Or a Mocha from a Normal, or a Het. Russo from a Normal?  How about a real tough one; An adult axanthic that has browned out compared to a normal?

If this upsets you then you may want to re-evaluate how you perceive opinions.  As far as everyone saying that his "Toffee" looks like a regular Albino, well can you blame them!?  Look at it!  I would NEVER in a million years guess that is a "Toffee"!  And having seen Candy Balls in person, it makes it even more difficult to imagine that.

As myself and others have said before, Congrats to the OP I really hope that I'm wrong and that he does in fact have the first CB Toffee, especially in Canada, but until the pretty little bugger ages, no one will know.

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## AlanDavidExotics

Your right...Ill just stick to reading messages and keep my comments/ opinions to myself... I noticed that there are a bunch of newbies as well as some old timers here... A lot of the time newbies think they're pro's and try to give breeding advice to other newbies when the dont even have a breeder sized female yet.. :Taz:  makes me laugh... but oh well... Good luck on everyones clutches this season... No hard feelings...  :Good Job:  Happy Herpin

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_Jason Bowden_ (04-07-2010)

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## albinosunlimited

here Is the best way i can descride what is going on. The toffee, candys are albinos. But they are albinos that for some reason are able to make small amouts of melanin over time. hence the color change I have seen this in albino turtles I own. There are also other animals that have done this. Another example are lavander albinos they start producing small amounts of melanin which gives them the purple color as they grow.


Easy example 
take 5 gallon bucket of white paint open the the can and its white as day. 2 days later add a drop of black paint  not much of a differance but add a drop of paint every day in a few months your going to have gray.  the animals finally stop changing  when you stop adding the drops of black.

We Know that ball pythons develope more melanin as they grow thats why ligth colored or bright colored babys get darker as they grow.

This is my 2 cents take it as you want

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## blackcrystal22

> here Is the best way i can descride what is going on. The toffee, candys are albinos. But they are albinos that for some reason are able to make small amouts of melanin over time. hence the color change I have seen this in albino turtles I own. There are also other animals that have done this. Another example are lavander albinos they start producing small amounts of melanin which gives them the purple color as they grow.
> 
> 
> Easy example 
> take 5 gallon bucket of white paint open the the can and its white as day. 2 days later add a drop of black paint  not much of a differance but add a drop of paint every day in a few months your going to have gray.  the animals finally stop changing  when you stop adding the drops of black.
> 
> We Know that ball pythons develope more melanin as they grow thats why ligth colored or bright colored babys get darker as they grow.
> 
> This is my 2 cents take it as you want


Though this makes sense genetically, why is it then that all other Toffee or Candy hatchlings that we have had examples of show some sort of this slight melanin production as hatchlings?
See where I'm coming from? I don't see any traces of melanin in that hatchling, which leads me to believe it's just an albino.

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## Toronto Python Gurus

> The Candy and Burgundy albino look similar, but the toffee stands out. It has a much different pattern than the other two.


I agree, if you look at the pictures, the Candy and Burgundy Albino have the same pattern and colour and the Toffee has pretty much the same colour but the pattern is definately different, I don't see a snake that looks like a regular albino changing that drastically.

Maybe it's a form of T+ albino??
T+ is the Caramel Albino, I mean I guess the Toffee could be an albino T+ but then wouldn't it look more like a Caramel Albino rather than the Toffee which has no yellow at all(well the adult doesn't), unless it's possible to have more of the tyrosinase enzyme(T+) than a Caramel Albino

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## blackcrystal22

> My feathers are all plucked lol... Id be heated if everyone told me my baby toffee is a only a regular albino... and maybe I should call the breeder back to get my money!!! Only because nobody has ever seen a baby TOFFEE
> 
> 
> BELIEVE ME... I'M NOT UPSET, I'M NOT GOING TO LOOSE ANY SLEEP, THIS IS MY HOBBY... THIS IS A DEBATE... I'M A DEBATER...ITS JUST WHAT I DO.
> 
> I DONT HAVE ANY HARD FEELINGS FOR ANYONE...I WISH EVERYONE LAVENDER ALBINO PIEDS (MY DREAM SNAKE)


TALKING IN CAPS MAKES A POINT.
Calm down please.

People will simply skip over your post because your trying to yell, which is annoying. But here's the part that got me.



> Only because nobody has ever seen a baby TOFFEE


Where are you getting that from? If there have been toffees produced, then people have seen the hatchling version as well. I've seen some at shows too. 

This is not a debate, because it is far too one sided. Experienced breeders are saying that they see an Albino, not anything else. They provide back-up information with their theory of why it's only an Albino, so please, give us some back up information of why it is a Toffee. 
IF you can prove that it is in fact a Toffee, we'd all be very happy to know that it is in fact not an albino. We're not saying "It's an albino!" because that's what we want it to be..
No one is saying that it may not turn out to be an actual Toffee, but by the way it looks and the experience present, that it doesn't look too hopeful.

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## albinosunlimited

> Though this makes sense genetically, why is it then that all other Toffee or Candy hatchlings that we have had examples of show some sort of this slight melanin production as hatchlings?
> See where I'm coming from? I don't see any traces of melanin in that hatchling, which leads me to believe it's just an albino.





Paul is the only person to show a baby toffee or candy right out of the egg every other picture that has been posted  is when the snakes are a few weeks or months old

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_irishanaconda_ (10-19-2009)

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## Toronto Python Gurus

> TALKING IN CAPS MAKES A POINT.
> Calm down please.
> 
> People will simply skip over your post because your trying to yell, which is annoying. But here's the part that got me.
> 
> *Where are you getting that from? If there have been toffees produced, then people have seen the hatchling version as well. I've seen some at shows too.* 
> This is not a debate, because it is far too one sided. Experienced breeders are saying that they see an Albino, not anything else. They provide back-up information with their theory of why it's only an Albino, so please, give us some back up information of why it is a Toffee. 
> IF you can prove that it is in fact a Toffee, we'd all be very happy to know that it is in fact not an albino. We're not saying "It's an albino!" because that's what we want it to be..
> No one is saying that it may not turn out to be an actual Toffee, but by the way it looks and the experience present, that it doesn't look too hopeful.


Toffee's haven't been produced yet that's why this is a debate on the OP's picture of an Albino looking snake, unless the Candy is the same as a Toffee, but IMHO there is something different between those two morphs, as far as I know the Urban Python Let 5 het pairs go in 2007 they haven't produced anything from Het x Het pairings and the Toffee x Het pairings didn't prove anything out either the females ended up being to small to produce a clutch

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## twistedtails

I'll tell you what is TOFFEE.......These golden brown, intensely sweet chunks in my bowl of ice cream.

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## Toronto Python Gurus

> I'll tell you what is TOFFEE.......These golden brown, intensely sweet chunks in my bowl of ice cream.


you can only call that Toffee in your ice cream cuz it has been proven,  :Smile:

----------


## blackcrystal22

> Toffee's haven't been produced yet that's why this is a debate on the OP's picture of an Albino looking snake, unless the Candy is the same as a Toffee, but IMHO there is something different between those two morphs, as far as I know the Urban Python Let 5 het pairs go in 2007 they haven't produced anything from Het x Het pairings and the Toffee x Het pairings didn't prove anything out either the females ended up being to small to produce a clutch


Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?

----------

joshm (10-01-2009)

----------


## waltah!

> Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?


Nope. They are assuming that it's a recessive trait.

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## Turbo Serpent

> Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?


They had the wild-caught that has yet to reproduce. They made hets that they sold with a money back guarantee that they are simple recessive. Thus the entire reason why everyone is skeptical that these are toffees because nobody has EVER seen a toffee hatchling.

----------


## Toronto Python Gurus

> Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?


The original Toffee was a CH baby that Craig Stewart(Urban Python) got from the USA back in 2005 he got that Toffee upto breeding size and bred it for the first time in 2007.  He bred the Toffee male to a bunch of Normal females and that's where the hets came from.  Craig then let go of 5 het pairs in 2007(they went to the U.S.A, Europe and Canada), between now and 2007 as far as everyone knows there have only been hets produced, and this year should be the first year that Craig will be able to breed his 2005 Toffee male to the 100% het Toffee females that were not big enough to give him clutches last season.

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## mainbutter

It is entirely possible that one of the parents from the het toffee clutch was also het albino, and passed it on to both the hets that the OP has.

I am just saying this because if it turns out that the animal produce is an albino, it doesn't mean there was a screwup in the animals the OP was sent, it just means there was an unknown gene in the mix.

----------


## The Urban Python

All I can say is wow!!!! I apologize for the delayed response to this thread. I have been off with the flu and didnt see this post until I got back into the office. 

I think I need to state a few things for the record but before I do that I want to give a great big congratulation to Paul for proving out the Toffee. Its a fantastic accomplishment and a huge leap forward for this exciting project. Great job buddy!!! 

As the owner of the Toffee I would be lying if I said I wasnt the least bit envious of Paul right now. As selfish as it may sound I wish I was the one posting those photos particularly considering what weve invested both financial and emotionally into this project. It cost us a total of $130,000 USD to acquire the Toffee Ball and when we initially got him into our facility in 2005 he didnt feed for almost 9 months. Then if that wasnt enough stress, once we got him established and feeding the 2006 breeding season was upon us and he had absolutely no interest in breeding. I can handle stress well but at this point I was ready to crack, which I think most of you would appreciate. 

The only reason I am disclosing all this is because I think its important that people realize what goes on behind the scenes in developing a new project. Many of us have heard about these incredible amounts invested into single animals but they are usually passed on through the grapevine and its hard to believe it. So when I look at some of the pioneers of the ball python industry like Peter Kahl Reptiles, VPI, NERD, BHB, Ralph Davis Reptiles, Snake Keeper, Outback Reptiles and Reptile Industries to name a few I have a great deal of respect for these individuals . Im not trying to put myself on their level, all I am trying to say is I can appreciate first hand what some of these guys have gone through. So I think you could imagine the relief we felt when we produced our fist het offspring in 2007. This was one huge milestone for us. We could finally breath normal once again knowing the genetics behind this animal had been passed on. In other words we had moved all of the eggs from one basket. 

Initially I wanted to hold back every single animal but due to the financial investment we had into this project we felt that we had to take some of the money off the table and sell a limited number of them. I was confident that the offspring would sell well but we did not expect them to sell as quickly as they did. We completely sold out of the 6 pairs and 3 single males we offered for sale in the matter of a few weeks. A couple pairs went into the US, a few overseas and some in Canada. We later decided to offer another pair for sale, which were purchased by Paul Angelides of the UK. This is the pair that produced Pauls Toffee babies and the baby pictured within this thread. 

The 2007/2008 breeding season had started and unfortunately the Toffee developed a very mild respiratory infection and we didnt want to put him at risk so we pulled him out of cycling, treated him with antibiotics and wrote the season off. This moved us onto the 2008/2009 breeding season. Some of our het girls from 2007 were growing great and getting big so we figured we would give them a go in early 2009, which we did. Unfortunately none of them took. I can appreciate why some of you may be wondering why we didnt produce offspring from these girls but if you have any experience with young females you would know that this is not uncommon. However we did produce a few het clutches this season so we were pleased with the overall results. The long and short of it is there are a very, very limited number of these het offspring around and from the results of this years sales, the hets continue to be in high demand. We were taking reservations on females before they had even hatched and I think from what I am about to describe that demand is going to increase even more. 

While I was away with the flu a very excited Paul Angelides had contacted and spoken to Paul Begg, one of our team members here at The Urban Python. Paul explained that he had just pipped his four eggs from the 100% Het Toffee X 100% Het Toffee pairing and had revealed two Toffee babies. He explained that they did not look anything like the adult Toffee and were more similar looking to a normal albino but had the Toffee pattern and a bit different hue to them. I was contacted immediately and informed of this and I couldnt believe it. Finally the project had officially been proved out thanks to Paul. Although I wish it was us that proved it out, Paul is a great guy and very passionate about his snakes so we are genuinely happy for him. I could only imagine what his reaction was when he piped those eggs. I dont want this post to take away from the credit Paul deserves for proving the Toffee out. This is a huge accomplishment and we are grateful for the results of his efforts. Thanks again buddy! 

So this brings us to current day where I was contacted by a friend and asked if I had seen this thread. I explained to him that I was away sick and hadnt seen anything. I went onto to the forum to see the photos that Paul had posted and I have to say I was as surprised as everyone else. Other than the pattern of the animal looking Toffee, it appears to have the same qualities as a normal T- albino.  I was very confused to say the least so I contacted Pete Kahl who obviously owns the Candy. Pete and I had spoken a bunch of times before about the Candy and Toffee. Pete has had the benefit of seeing both of them in person and we are absolutely confident that they are the same morph. They virtually have the same coloration, pattern and were collected in the same area in Benin. They are the same morph.  

When I contacted him he knew exactly why I was calling and jokingly said to me, Were you freakin out when you saw the photos of the baby Toffees? I went on to explain that I was definitely confused and he laughed and said he should have let me stew a little longer. 

Approximately 2 months earlier Pete had hatched out two babies that appeared exactly the same as the baby Toffee in the photo that Paul posted. His first thought was these are normal albinos and wondered what the heck was going on. However, they had the same pattern that the adult Candy and Toffee had so he figured that these must be baby Candys and they will go through some incredible color change. Well sure enough after the second shed they were starting to change and by the third shed he couldnt believe what he was seeing. It was evident to him that this morph was even more remarkable than he had initially anticipated. The baby Candies were changing right in front of his eyes and he was blown away with how quickly it was happening. As we all know Pete has been working with reptiles for many, many years and has a great deal of experience. He went on to described that he has never seen anything like this and was excited to explain how this is not only a new morph but how it develops is very different that anything else hes seen. 

He and I couldnt be more excited about the results of the Candy and the Toffee and what lays ahead for this morph. So for those of you that thought theres no way this animal will morph out into an animal that looks like the yearling Candy think again because what Paul has posted is in fact a baby Toffee and hopefully he will continue to share his photos as he experiences the incredible ontogenesis of this morph. Man oh man I cannot wait to hatch out Toffee babies and experience this for myself. The thought of witnessing this morphs development is unlike any other Ball Python morph we know of. I will be speaking to Pete to get some photos posted of the color change of his baby Candys. Thanks for taking the time to read my long winded post and if anyone has anymore questions please feel free to contact me personally at 905 264-5557. 

On another note we will be attending the North American Breeders Conference in Tinley Park next weekend. We have never done a US show before and we hear that this is an awesome show so if you can make it please drop by our booth and to say hi and lets talk ball pythons. Thanks again and we look forward to seeing you.

Best regards,

Craig Stewart
The Urban Python
Tel: 905 264-5557

----------

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## RhacHead

Well looks like that settles it.Congrads on hatching the first Toffee Ball!! :Good Job: 
Could you please post pics after each shed so we can witness the change in color? :Please:

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## mainbutter

> well looks like that settles it.congrads on hatching the first toffee ball!!
> Could you please post pics after each shed so we can witness the change in color?


+1

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## Toronto Python Gurus

Thanks for clearing that up Craig!

Congrats Paul, I shall now remove my foot from my mouth!!

Great job buddy!

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## Watever

It's a TOFFEE !

I am happy of this. Just sad I won't be able to buy one until a few years pass probably.

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## Eventide

Well, methinks congrats are in order!   :Very Happy: 

Please, please, please post pics of these two as they age?  I'm anxious to see this color change!

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## Turbo Serpent

That is proof enough for me.  :Good Job: 

Congrats Paul, and of course Urban Python!

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## jsmorphs2

It would be neat to take a picture the toffee side-by-side with a regular albino hatchling and see if the difference in their hues shows up on camera. From these pics the white on the toffees looks more pink, not a bright clear white. Pictures can be tricky though. 

Very cool project!! One of my favorite morphs for sure.

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## dr del

Cool, :Smile: 




> here Is the best way i can descride what is going on. The toffee, candys are albinos. But they are albinos that for some reason are able to make small amouts of melanin over time. hence the color change I have seen this in albino turtles I own. There are also other animals that have done this. Another example are lavander albinos they start producing small amounts of melanin which gives them the purple color as they grow.
> 
> 
> Easy example 
> take 5 gallon bucket of white paint open the the can and its white as day. 2 days later add a drop of black paint  not much of a differance but add a drop of paint every day in a few months your going to have gray.  the animals finally stop changing  when you stop adding the drops of black.
> 
> We Know that ball pythons develope more melanin as they grow thats why ligth colored or bright colored babys get darker as they grow.
> 
> This is my 2 cents take it as you want


So it's not a T- or a T+ but more of a T-Meh?  :Giggle: 

Maybe a T~ ?


dr del

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## JLC

Craig, thank you _so much_ for stepping in and giving us such a thorough overview of not only the history and personal side of the Toffee story, but your feelings about these babies as well.  I, personally, would like to apologize for our pessimism that dragged you out of your sick bed to have to do that! 

It does, indeed, sound like one of the most exciting morph projects to come down the pike in quite some time and I am anxious to see it play out and watch those babies grow.  

To Paul...my apologies for being such a "Doubting Thomas" on this one.  It's not that I didn't trust YOU...just that my eyes were convinced that they were looking at ordinary albinos.  I hope you'll share many more pictures with us as they grow and change.  I'll look forward to that dish of crow.  :Razz:

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## panthercz

Poor Paul, he hatches out a Toffee and most of us say "Uhh...no, that's an albino dude".   :Embarassed: 

Congrats to both Paul and Craig on the Toffee project!  :Salute: 
Also Paul, plz keep us updated with photo's of how it progresses or better yet, send me the Toffee and I'll take as many free photo's as you want!  :Very Happy:   :Wink:

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## SlitherinSisters

Wow we might all have to eat our words. Now we just need the time to fly by so we can see his snakes after a few sheds!!!  :Good Job:

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## AlanDavidExotics

Thanks Craig for your updates and sharing your story. Paul everyone knows I hope you continue to send pictures!!!! Im really glad this story was cleared :Taz: .

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## Thehornycorny

Good on ya paul 

Like I said before hope you proved people wrong.

Good luck with this fantastic project .

Also congrats to craig for making it all possible!

James

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## Dave79

> maybe the original toffee was bred to an albino, and you got two het albino babies lol
> 
> im not trying to be the stick in the mud, but do you have pictures of other toffee babies?


there are no other toffee babies

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## Mike Cavanaugh

Yep, Ive read thru all 14 pages.  Still don't believe they are anything more then normal albinos.   There is nothing out of the ordinary in regards to their normal albino eyes, and their normal patterns and colors.  

I know colors can change... but I don't see how the eyes could possibly change from normal albino eyes to the Toffee eyes.  I will definitely keep up with this, and if the color change ever happens, I will be a believer.  But until then, they are just plain old albinos.

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## Bill Buchman

> Yep, Ive read thru all 14 pages.  Still don't believe they are anything more then normal albinos.   There is nothing out of the ordinary in regards to their normal albino eyes, and their normal patterns and colors.  
> 
> I know colors can change... but I don't see how the eyes could possibly change from normal albino eyes to the Toffee eyes.  I will definitely keep up with this, and if the color change ever happens, I will be a believer.  But until then, they are just plain old albinos.


I would admit that photo looks like an Albino Mike. I don't have an opinion about eye color change? Craig must have been pretty sure about the Toffee's genetics to give that kind of 100% money-back promise. I believe Craig believed in the markers he was seeing in ALL the founding Toffee offspring.

I picked up on the markers from the 07 Het pictures on Craig's website a couple of years ago. I also know someone who has a Het Toffee male and markers are consistent when bred to normals -- 50% of offspring have them.

I have a recessive project I have been working with the last 2 years/holding back lots of girls -- I EXPECT to prove it this spring. ALL of the 45+ hatchlings have the same 5 subtle markers and "LOOK" about them -- regardless of the light/dark color of normal girl that produced them. Can 45 hatchlings all be wrong????

Recessive Hets can display markers if you have entire clutches/mult. babies to compare.

Colors CAN change quickly.  :Smile: 

The girl on the right is 250 grams in this photo and was the same color as the girl in the middle (after first shed) right after her first shed. The older girl has shed twice since this photo and has colored-up even more.  :Cool:

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## AaronP

> Yep, Ive read thru all 14 pages.  Still don't believe they are anything more then normal albinos.   There is nothing out of the ordinary in regards to their normal albino eyes, and their normal patterns and colors.  
> 
> I know colors can change... but I don't see how the eyes could possibly change from normal albino eyes to the Toffee eyes.  I will definitely keep up with this, and if the color change ever happens, I will be a believer.  But until then, they are just plain old albinos.


I see where you could think it's an Albino, but c'mon if Pete Kahl is backing this then I don't know how you could say "No".  I know the Toffees and Candies have yet to be bred together to prove compatibility but still we're not talking about Amateurs making random guesses here.

Food for thought: I wonder if the Candy/Toffee are compatible with "regular" albinos.  See my idea comes from Retics.  Retics have 3 forms of Albino; White Phase, Lavender, and Purple, but they're all compatible.  I understand that Lavender Albino and Regular Albinos are not compatible but they look very different as hatchlings and see as how Toffees/Candies apparently don't then maybe they can be reproduced using just Albinos. 

Of course it's just a Theory with no evidence to really back it up, but I guess we'll know when someone eventually breeds Toffee/Candy to Albino  :Smile: .

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

> Still don't believe they are anything more then normal albinos.


In no time at all, you'll believe differently. I promise.  :Good Job: 

-adam

----------


## twistedtails

I believed it all along.  I can't wait to see what they turn out like. :Rolleyes2:

----------


## Mike Cavanaugh

> In no time at all, you'll believe differently. I promise. 
> 
> -adam


I sure hope so!   If that happens, I WANT ONE!!!

----------


## Blue Apple Herps

Well I was VERY doubtful, but never the less awesome to see!!  It'll be very interesting to see how they mature into their colors.

I think next up is definitely testing them against other albinos.

----------


## twistedtails

> Well I was VERY doubtful, but never the less awesome to see!!  It'll be very interesting to see how they mature into their colors.
> 
> I think next up is definitely testing them against other albinos.


I wonder if it will play out like the specials or mystics do with the Mojave?

----------


## cbentley

> Well I was VERY doubtful, but never the less awesome to see!!  It'll be very interesting to see how they mature into their colors.
> 
> I think next up is definitely testing them against other albinos.


x2

It will be sweet to see them colored up.

----------


## Turbo Serpent

> I wonder if it will play out like the specials or mystics do with the Mojave?


They are like that because they are 'diluted' BEL genes.

----------


## PythonWallace

Man, I'm glad I decided to wait until now to post here. I'm no longer flexible enough to get my foot in my mouth. 

*Big congrats, Paul! And congrats to Craig, too!*

----------

_irishanaconda_ (10-19-2009),_twh_ (10-05-2009)

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

> I sure hope so!


No need to hope, you can count on it.  :Wink: 

-adam

----------


## mrs.twistedtails

> Looking at the above picture the eyes are not red> of the verified candys


they are too red, maybe nor bright red but I do a sense of burgundy red tint!! look closer! :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## paul.angelides

I'll try and get some pics up by the weekend on this thread so keep watching. I'll get the 2 toffee so u can compare as the smaller one is slightly darker and the marked sibling to compare along with the parents hopefully. 
Paul

----------


## twistedtails

> They are like that because they are 'diluted' BEL genes.


Well it sure look like this Toffee gene has something to do with the albino gene.  Maybe it is a "diluted" albino gene.

----------


## AlanDavidExotics

> Well it sure look like this Toffee gene has something to do with the albino gene.  Maybe it is a "diluted" albino gene.



I was thinking the same thing!!! I thought it was some type of diluted lavender mix when i first saw it... It kinda reminded me of Grants' (lavenderalbino.com)
Genevieve (faded female lavender albino). I cant find any pictures to save my life lol

----------


## takagari

this is awesome to hear!

weWill be coming down from winnipeg for this show also!!  :Very Happy: 

Craig message me, maybe were in the same hotel. a bunch of the bp.net crew wanna get togethor

Shawn





> All I can say is wow!!!! I apologize for the delayed response to this thread. I have been off with the flu and didnt see this post until I got back into the office. 
> 
> I think I need to state a few things for the record but before I do that I want to give a great big congratulation to Paul for proving out the Toffee. Its a fantastic accomplishment and a huge leap forward for this exciting project. Great job buddy!!! 
> 
> As the owner of the Toffee I would be lying if I said I wasnt the least bit envious of Paul right now. As selfish as it may sound I wish I was the one posting those photos particularly considering what weve invested both financial and emotionally into this project. It cost us a total of $130,000 USD to acquire the Toffee Ball and when we initially got him into our facility in 2005 he didnt feed for almost 9 months. Then if that wasnt enough stress, once we got him established and feeding the 2006 breeding season was upon us and he had absolutely no interest in breeding. I can handle stress well but at this point I was ready to crack, which I think most of you would appreciate. 
> 
> The only reason I am disclosing all this is because I think its important that people realize what goes on behind the scenes in developing a new project. Many of us have heard about these incredible amounts invested into single animals but they are usually passed on through the grapevine and its hard to believe it. So when I look at some of the pioneers of the ball python industry like Peter Kahl Reptiles, VPI, NERD, BHB, Ralph Davis Reptiles, Snake Keeper, Outback Reptiles and Reptile Industries to name a few I have a great deal of respect for these individuals . Im not trying to put myself on their level, all I am trying to say is I can appreciate first hand what some of these guys have gone through. So I think you could imagine the relief we felt when we produced our fist het offspring in 2007. This was one huge milestone for us. We could finally breath normal once again knowing the genetics behind this animal had been passed on. In other words we had moved all of the eggs from one basket. 
> 
> Initially I wanted to hold back every single animal but due to the financial investment we had into this project we felt that we had to take some of the money off the table and sell a limited number of them. I was confident that the offspring would sell well but we did not expect them to sell as quickly as they did. We completely sold out of the 6 pairs and 3 single males we offered for sale in the matter of a few weeks. A couple pairs went into the US, a few overseas and some in Canada. We later decided to offer another pair for sale, which were purchased by Paul Angelides of the UK. This is the pair that produced Pauls Toffee babies and the baby pictured within this thread. 
> ...

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## adam_degel

longest post ever

----------

_N4S_ (10-16-2009)

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## paul.angelides

Shockingly bad pics but I have no time. You can at least see the markings on the sibling and also the Lav look about the head which is still not coming out too well in shots!! I did get one thing wrong, one is a female!! Nice to have her to breed combos back to though....













Paul

----------

_Seneschal_ (10-10-2009)

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## Seneschal

Very cool, and congrats on the girl!  :Smile:  I really look forward to seeing these two as they grow! Could anybody point out the "markers" on the sibs for me? I'd like to hear about that! It looks a bit different, but I can't put my finger on what it is exactly.

----------


## takagari

I spent some time talking with craig this past weekend, and also go to see a candy ball in person. I still am not sure if the candy and toffee are the same. they seem a bit to different to me  :Smile: 

I can not wait to get into this prject, so hopefully we get more hets this year craig!

Shawn

----------


## DesignerBP

just read all the pages.. a lot to take in over the last 10-15 minutes or so lol but a great story indeed and happy to see that the toffee has been proven.  :Number1:

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## RoyalVariations

very exciting morph, congrats!   :Good Job:

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## wolfy-hound

When I see the pictures I see albinos.  Sorry, but then, I can't tell yellowbellies from normals either.

I hope that these are toffees and that it's proven and you will be proudly showing the first ever captive bred toffee balls!  What an achievement that is! 

But yeah, I'd have advised you they were albinos too, just looking at the pictures.

----------


## Big Gunnsd

:ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL: 

Nobody finds this thread more amusing than Big Gunns. BG thought at least one of his fans would have let people know the one person that could put this thread to rest once and for all. That one person being The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind himself. There is no bigger expert. (yeah...hard to believe huh) :Smile: 

BG will say this. Congrats Paul. BG can't say he's even 1% happy for you, but congrats anyway.  :Smile:  

To all the people that are completely lost by now....you'll just have to ask someone that's "in the know" wtf BG is talking about. :ROFL:  If you're smart and can read between the lines, you'll realize that Big Gunns has just settled this whole mess with this post.

----------


## Freakie_frog

Holly Hell.. BIG GUNNS...

----------


## Rije682

I really like the look of the toffee ball, glad to hear it proved out!

----------


## twistedtails

> Nobody finds this thread more amusing than Big Gunns. BG thought at least one of his fans would have let people know the one person that could put this thread to rest once and for all. That one person being The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind himself. There is no bigger expert. (yeah...hard to believe huh)
> 
> BG will say this. Congrats Paul. BG can't say he's even 1% happy for you, but congrats anyway.  
> 
> To all the people that are completely lost by now....you'll just have to ask someone that's "in the know" wtf BG is talking about. If you're smart and can read between the lines, you'll realize that Big Gunns has just settled this whole mess with this post.


WTF!!!!  WTF is Big Gunns talkin about!

----------


## A&Jsnakes

What exactly is the difference between a toffee/candy ball and lavander albino? Are these toffee/candy morphs simple recessive?

----------


## Bill Buchman

> WTF!!!!  WTF is Big Gunns talkin about!


Big Gunns works with Candies and by his congratulating Paul, he is giving his approval/opinion  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  that the hatchlings in question are ...Toffees.

----------

_twistedtails_ (10-16-2009)

----------


## Twisted Reptiles

Big Gunns' non-sensical rambling reminds me of someone.

----------


## N4S

congrats on proving out albinos. 

good luck

----------


## SPJ

> WTF!!!!  WTF is Big Gunns talkin about!


No one can ever decipher his ramblings.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## takagari

> congrats on proving out albinos. 
> 
> good luck


You really need to re-read this thread and stop being so ignorant and rude to a very popular breeder. clearling your post count does not count for your tactfulness.




> What exactly is the difference between a toffee/candy ball and lavander albino? Are these toffee/candy morphs simple recessive?


you also need to re-read this. and look at the pictures posted, and that fact that craig stewart himself stepped in to confirm.

These animals are nothing like an albino aside from whhen they are born, EXACTLY like the candy, which i saw in person this weekend and was told it started as an Albino.


But yes. It's much easier to believe the big breeders with carriers, jobs, and homes ont he line simply come on here to pull a fast one.. and for what reason? if they are lieing, they simply destroy there rep.

I wish those with no name (nno offence) would stop jumping at the big names because they can't believe something. No expertise in a matter you should not be commenting short from saying "congrats"


Shawn

----------

_N4S_ (10-16-2009)

----------


## LadyOhh

> Nobody finds this thread more amusing than Big Gunns. BG thought at least one of his fans would have let people know the one person that could put this thread to rest once and for all. That one person being The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind himself. There is no bigger expert. (yeah...hard to believe huh)
> 
> BG will say this. Congrats Paul. BG can't say he's even 1% happy for you, but congrats anyway.  
> 
> To all the people that are completely lost by now....you'll just have to ask someone that's "in the know" wtf BG is talking about. If you're smart and can read between the lines, you'll realize that Big Gunns has just settled this whole mess with this post.


Welcome, Big Gunns. Good to see you  :Wink:

----------


## JAMills

Congrats on the Toffee Balls! Very exciting. Keep up posted with pictures fo the color change PLEASE!




> Big Gunns works with Candies and by his congratulating Paul, he is giving his approval/opinion  that the hatchlings in question are ...Toffees.


Is Big Gunns who I think it is gracing BP.net with his presence?

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

BG, you are and forever will be ... my hero.  :Bowdown: 

-adam

----------


## Big Gunnsd

> Holly Hell.. BIG GUNNS...



Big Gunns understands your excitement, but you're going to need to calm down Freakie F :Smile:  




> WTF!!!!  WTF is Big Gunns talkin about!


You're question anwers another, but BG is too nice to say it. :Wink:  :Very Happy: 




> Big Gunns works with Candies and by his congratulating Paul, he is giving his approval/opinion  that the hatchlings in question are ...Toffees.


Billyboy post answers the exact same question about him. :Very Happy: 




> Big Gunns' non-sensical rambling reminds me of someone.


No way....there's nobody that intelligent.  :Razz: 




> No one can ever decipher his ramblings.


Billyboy did. :Wink: 




> You really need to re-read this thread and stop being so ignorant and rude to a very popular breeder. clearling your post count does not count for your tactfulness.
> 
> 
> 
> you also need to re-read this. and look at the pictures posted, and that fact that craig stewart himself stepped in to confirm.
> 
> These animals are nothing like an albino aside from whhen they are born, EXACTLY like the candy, which i saw in person this weekend and was told it started as an Albino.
> 
> 
> ...


Big Gunns will defend the "no name". If you talk to Pete, they are not the only one that was confused.




> Welcome, Big Gunns. Good to see you


WTF is going on? A "welcome"? From a moderator of a site that Big Gunns just joined???? Hold on while BG looks in the mirror to see if there is an impostor in his thong undies.(just wanted to give you all a mental picture) :Very Happy:  




> Congrats on the Toffee Balls! Very exciting. Keep up posted with pictures fo the color change PLEASE!
> 
> 
> Is Big Gunns who I think it is gracing BP.net with his presence?


It appears so. You all have a new answer when you're asked "what was the greatest day of your life"? :Very Happy: 




> BG, you are and forever will be ... my hero. 
> 
> -adam


Big Gunns already knew that Adam, and you will always be his leeeetle buddy. :Good Job:

----------


## LadyOhh

> WTF is going on? A "welcome"? From a moderator of a site that Big Gunns just joined???? Hold on while BG looks in the mirror to see if there is an impostor in his thong undies.(just wanted to give you all a mental picture)


LOL

You knew it was coming.. 

Plus, considering that fact, I am honored to have given you that little jolt, Oh mighty one..

----------


## Big Gunnsd

> LOL
> 
> You knew it was coming.. 
> 
> Plus, considering that fact, I am honored to have given you that little jolt, Oh mighty one..


HEEAAATTHHHERRR. The "Oh mighty one" didn't realize it was you. :ROFL:  You don't count. You've actually been lucky enough in life to meet The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind. BG thought he had a welcome from a mod who didn't. This explains everything. Big Gunns thought he was slipping. Now he realizes he's not. :Dancin' Banana:  :Dancin' Banana:  There has never EVER been a moderator that hasn't met Big Gunns in person that welcomed him after his first post. :Razz:  :Very Happy:

----------

_LadyOhh_ (10-16-2009)

----------


## AaronP

Good to see you again BG!  You can actually already see them changing in the new pictures Paul posted, very exciting.

----------


## rabernet

> HEEAAATTHHHERRR. The "Oh mighty one" didn't realize it was you. You don't count. You've actually been lucky enough in life to meet The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind. BG thought he had a welcome from a mod who didn't. This explains everything. Big Gunns thought he was slipping. Now he realizes he's not. There has never EVER been a moderator that hasn't met Big Gunns in person that welcomed him after his first post.


Ed did (Freakie_frog).  :Razz:  He wears a green cape too. 

BTW - welcome Neil!  :Very Happy:

----------


## greghall

the eyes look darker than an albino that has me wondering,gotta see some pics as it grows.

----------


## JAMills

The new pics show the "Ruby" eyes great. Definately not normal albino.
Big Congrats again!

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Ive been keeping up with this but didnt want to join in since id only seen one or two pictures of a toffee ball.. I myself do not breed albinos but ive seen plenty. I bet if those babies were photographed on a clear white background with a daylight bulb it would be more obvious.

Initially they did appear to be albinos but the more i read of the postings, the more i went back to take a closer look at the 2 sets of pics that was posted. They are clearly not albinos. Its hard to tell from those pics but the white is definately more of creamy color than white. The markings are a bit different and like another user stated, the eyes are more of a dark ruby color than the red or pink of albinos.

I was glad to see the original breeder come on here to back up the claim. Congrats on the new babies!!   :Good Job:

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

As for "BG" im feeling a bit lost.. Anyone care to share the secret?

----------


## Big Gunnsd

> Ed did (Freakie_frog).  He wears a green cape too. 
> 
> BTW - welcome Neil!



Well....if you consider "holy hell...Big Gunns" a welcome...... maybe BG was welcomed by another mod. :Smile: 

Thanks for the welcome Rabby.




> Ive been keeping up with this but didnt want to join in since id only seen one or two pictures of a toffee ball.. I myself do not breed albinos but ive seen plenty. I bet if those babies were photographed on a clear white background with a daylight bulb it would be more obvious.
> 
> Initially they did appear to be albinos but the more i read of the postings, the more i went back to take a closer look at the 2 sets of pics that was posted. They are clearly not albinos. Its hard to tell from those pics but the white is definately more of creamy color than white. The markings are a bit different and like another user stated, the eyes are more of a dark ruby color than the red or pink of albinos.
> 
> I was glad to see the original breeder come on here to back up the claim. Congrats on the new babies!!



Big Gunns wil make one thing perfectly clear to everyone that The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind is sure that most people are STILL not aware of.

Big Gunns produced the first hets from the Candy. Say it ain't so....yep....it be so. :Dancin' Banana:  :Dancin' Banana: 

Big Gunns proved it to be genetic in 08 by producing the first Candy and Starburst(pastel Candy). The 08 animal Pete had in Daytona was produced by BG.

Last but not least. Big Gunns gave it such an awesome name. He named it after a few candy azzes he knows on from the forums. :Very Happy:  No...not really. Big Gunns named it that because they look like you can eat them....and Big Gunns has a sweet tooth. :Very Happy:  Baby Gunns would eat 4 packs of Starburst a day in his youth. Obviously it didn't hurt his perfect bod....or his ego. :Wink:  :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:  :Razz: 

Now having said all this. It would seem that the "original breeder" is Big Gunns himself.....of the Candy anyway.

Is the Toffee the same as the Candy? HMMMMMMMM....now is it in BG's best interest to answer that? :Razz:  :Very Happy:  Big Gunns knows...and if you read between the lines....so do all of you.

Lost you are no more Draigness. Big Gunns was more than happy to straighten this whole mess out....even if it was in his own unique style. :Wink:  :Razz:  :Very Happy:

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

LOL Awesome  :Cool:

----------


## Python Dreams

LMAO @ Big Gumms! :Razz:

----------


## jere000

Does anyone know what Big Gunns is talking about?

----------


## rabernet

> Well....if you consider "holy hell...Big Gunns" a welcome...... maybe BG was welcomed by another mod.
> 
> Thanks for the welcome Rabby.


Knowing Ed as I do - yup, that was a welcome!  :Wink:

----------


## takagari

this big gunnsd thing just confused me and through me off topic. Guess I'll come back once the topic makes sense and gets back on track?

----------


## MarkS

> As for "BG" im feeling a bit lost.. Anyone care to share the secret?


Well, lets say it should be interesting.  At least for a little while until the mods get worn down and ban him just for violating the principles of good taste and modesty.  Enjoy the ride while you can, BG is not known for his 'staying power' 

Welcome Kneel, good to see you here.  

 :Rolleyes2:  :Rolleyes2:  :Rolleyes2:  :Rolleyes2:  :Rolleyes2:

----------


## Big Gunns

> LMAO @ Big Gumms!


What's up skinny?




> Does anyone know what Big Gunns is talking about?








> this big gunnsd thing just confused me and through me off topic. Guess I'll come back once the topic makes sense and gets back on track?



Well....like they say. You can lead a French Poodle to a bowl of rice crispies , but you can't make it eat them....even if you shove it's head in the bowl and show it how apparently. :ROFL: 




> Well, lets say it should be interesting.  At least for a little while until the mods get worn down and ban him just for violating the principles of good taste and modesty.  Enjoy the ride while you can, BG is not known for his 'staying power' 
> 
> Welcome Kneel, good to see you here.


Oh how wrong you are my leeetle Minion. :Razz:  Big Gunns is definitely known for his "staying power"...you just have to talk to the right woman. :Wink:  :Very Happy:  :Very Happy: 

In all honesty though. BG is banned from nowhere he decided to grace with his obvious great presence. :Very Happy:  Now he WAS from one place, but that was all by design. If you ask the right leeetle Minion....Big Gunns can prove it. :Very Happy: 

 "Modesty" is for those that don't have the Ball Pythons to say what they really wanna say. Big Gunns is the greatest. :Dancin' Banana:  :Dancin' Banana: 

ps. Don't worry peeps. Big Gunns has been on a "top secret" mission the last few months. He does not have the time to be the REAL BIG GUNNS anymore. That "top secret" mission will be revealed soon enough. Let's just say everyone will be seeing(yes....actually seeing) a lot more of Big Gunns. Wasn't it obvious from the first time you saw Big Gunns that he was obviously put here(on earth) for bigger and better things? :Salute: 

Big Gunns is out....back to your regularly scheduled forum. :Salute:

----------


## AaronP

Darniit BG you can't go now!  I haven't been able to flex my mind to read between your lines in months, I kind of enjoy reading your telling posts!

----------


## wolfy-hound

Oh great, big mouth is here.

Talking in circles and trying to sound like a big shot impresses no one with brains.  Don't bother with answering me with a ton of bragging and double-talk, you can put up or shut up, and history shows you'll do neither.  YOu'll go on and on with several long drawn out posts talking in third-person, bragging about your sexual prowess, insinuating that you've done great things with whatever morph people are talking about, and eventually when you get enough attention from the place you're annoying, you'll drop off the face of the earth.  

If I can figure out how to put him on block, maybe the place will be bearable until he gets banned or leaves just before he gets banned.  I see so far he's already posted with the name different, big gunnsd, and big gunns.  I'll put both on ignore, see it that works.

Disgusted is,
w.

----------


## Big Gunns

> Oh great, big mouth is here.
> 
> Talking in circles and trying to sound like a big shot impresses no one with brains.  Don't bother with answering me with a ton of bragging and double-talk, you can put up or shut up, and history shows you'll do neither.  YOu'll go on and on with several long drawn out posts talking in third-person, bragging about your sexual prowess, insinuating that you've done great things with whatever morph people are talking about, and eventually when you get enough attention from the place you're annoying, you'll drop off the face of the earth.  
> 
> If I can figure out how to put him on block, maybe the place will be bearable until he gets banned or leaves just before he gets banned.  I see so far he's already posted with the name different, big gunnsd, and big gunns.  I'll put both on ignore, see it that works.
> 
> Disgusted is,
> w.


Glad to see you Wolfy. :Very Happy: 

Big Gunns is curious what you would like him to "put up" before he "shuts up". :Very Happy: 


This post does show how well you don't really know Big Gunns though, since Big Gunns was THE FIRST TO PROVE OUT AND PRODUCE A CANDY BALL AND A PASTEL CANDY in 08(last year). He was the first owner of the Candy Ball...he named it....and he produced the first hets from it that he used to prove out the gene(didn't BG already say this? :Smile: ). Who really cares though? It's a snake. (BG is not "insinuating".... it's a fact....ask Pete Kahl. ). 

Nobody knew this fact because Big Gunns didn't brag about it before it was even out of the egg like 99.9% of snake breeders.(This is not the only morph BG produced first) Wanting to be "first" is probably the reason why there was so much controversy about Paul's baby Toffees. He posted them to be just that....."first". He obviously should have waited until they "color up". Big Gunns is still not sure how he didn't realize the drama his post would cause with all the "forum experts" since they do look like normal albinos.


Last but not least, Big Gunns will say this to you Wolfy. If you ever have the pleasure (and it is) of meeting The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind, you will completely understand Big Gunns. If you think BG is a liar....just ask someone who has had that pleasure. :Very Happy:  Hopefully some day you will also be lucky enough to have that same pleasure that so many have had.(that's not BG bragging about his "sexual prowess" either :Razz:  :Very Happy: ). There is nobody more fun to "hang out" with than Big Gunns. :Dancin' Banana:  :Dancin' Banana: 

Peace and love to the world.

----------


## JLC

Wow, Theresa....tell us how you _really_ feel!  Don't hold back!  :Razz: 

Seriously though, the confusion with the user-name has been straightened out and no one was trying to do anything underhanded with it. 

Big Gunns....I don't believe we've had the pleasure.  :Tip of the Hat:   But you're certainly not unknown to me. I think I'm pretty safe in assuming things might get a bit more....colorful...around here in the future if you choose to stick around and become a regular part of the community.   :Wink:   Welcome aboard.  (Now that the stunned shock of being welcomed by staff is wearing off...  :Razz:  )

----------


## Big Gunns

> Wow, Theresa....tell us how you _really_ feel!  Don't hold back! 
> 
> Seriously though, the confusion with the user-name has been straightened out and no one was trying to do anything underhanded with it. 
> 
> Big Gunns....I don't believe we've had the pleasure.   But you're certainly not unknown to me. I think I'm pretty safe in assuming things might get a bit more....colorful...around here in the future if you choose to stick around and become a regular part of the community.    Welcome aboard.  (Now that the stunned shock of being welcomed by staff is wearing off...  )



"stunned shock" is putting it mildly. :ROFL: 

Actually BG thinks too many people have now actually figured out just who he really is. You have no idea how many people knew Big Gunns from the forums and didn't know it was him at the shows.  :ROFL:  It was more fun when they didn't know. :Very Happy: 


Thanks for the welcome :Good Job:  


ps.(BG loves his ps :Smile: ) It's no surprise to BG that's he's "not unknown to you". After all...women love to gossip. :ROFL:  :ROFL:

----------


## LadyOhh

> "stunned shock" is putting it mildly.


LOL. You're telling me...

 :Hug:

----------


## JLC

> ps.(BG loves his ps) It's no surprise to BG that's he's "not unknown to you". After all...women love to gossip.


 :ROFL:  I can safely say that Big Gunns is not a topic of choice on those rare occasions when gossip should cross my ear.  :ROFL:    I just like to keep an eye on things is all...even if I don't have time to participate much elsewhere on the 'Net. 





> "stunned shock" is putting it mildly.


Hehe...let's just say we enjoy our colorful members...so long as they behave themselves within the boundaries set by our TOS.  :Razz:

----------


## twistedtails

I love the internet!!  I can find out who anybody is!!!  Shall I post BG's name so everybody that is lost knows it??

----------


## JLC

> I love the internet!!  I can find out who anybody is!!!  Shall I post BG's name so everybody that is lost knows it??


Is it a secret???  :Weirdface:

----------


## Big Gunns

> I can safely say that Big Gunns is not a topic of choice on those rare occasions when gossip should cross my ear.    I just like to keep an eye on things is all...even if I don't have time to participate much elsewhere on the 'Net. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe...let's just say we enjoy our colorful members...so long as they behave themselves within the boundaries set by our TOS.



Come on JLC...you can admit it. BG knows women spend at least 2 hours a day talking about him....wait....no....the study said it was 2 hours a night dreaming of him. Sorry....BG's mistake. :ROFL:  :ROFL: 


BG will say this also. Technically Wolfy broke those "boundaries set by the tos"(she did attack BG :Tears:  :Tears: ). That's OK though....she has plenty of time to fall in love with Big Gunns(and she will). :Very Happy:

----------


## Big Gunns

Big Gunns has to go now and deliver a snake cage. 

Have a great day everyone. :Good Job:  :Good Job:

----------


## twistedtails

> Is it a secret???


To me it seemed as if it was.  I had just as hard of a time reading his posts as I do some of the kids who post on here.  I don't believe he formally introduced himself either.  I just heard of the candy recently and no clue until I searched as to who this "Legend" in his OWN mind was.  I don't care who or what somebody is!  Does is really warrant acting a fool?

----------


## Big Gunns

> To me it seemed as if it was.  I had just as hard of a time reading his posts as I do some of the kids who post on here.  I don't believe he formally introduced himself either.  I just heard of the candy recently and no clue until I searched as to who this "Legend" in his OWN mind was.  I don't care who or what somebody is!  Does is really warrant acting a fool?



Come on twisted.... BG is toning it down for bp.net. Any kid that can figure out what BG sometimes "insinuates" is more than old enough to handle it.

Have some fun. Everyone "acts a fool" once in a while. :Dancin' Banana:  :Dancin' Banana:  :Dancin' Banana:

----------


## LadyOhh

> To me it seemed as if it was.  I had just as hard of a time reading his posts as I do some of the kids who post on here.  I don't believe he formally introduced himself either.  I just heard of the candy recently and no clue until I searched as to who this "Legend" in his OWN mind was.  I don't care who or what somebody is!  Does is really warrant acting a fool?


Do what you will with what you know, but it seems as if you are doing it out of spite, no?

LOL

----------


## Big Gunns

> Do what you will with what you know, but it seems as if you are doing it out of spite, no?
> 
> LOL



Still here.  :Dancin' Banana: 

BG understands Heather....it's no biggee to him. Hopefully he/she will come around. It can take some time to figure BG out. :Very Happy: 

Maybe giving out free snake morphs will help. :Razz:  :Very Happy:

----------


## LadyOhh

> Still here. 
> 
> BG understands Heather....it's no biggee to him. Hopefully he/she will come around. It can take some time to figure BG out.
> 
> Maybe giving out free snake morphs will help.


LOL. Doesn't it always?

----------


## twistedtails

> Come on twisted.... BG is toning it down for bp.net. Any kid that can figure out what BG sometimes "insinuates" is more than old enough to handle it.
> 
> Have some fun. Everyone "acts a fool" once in a while.


I'm sure I've been caught acting a fool on here a few times.  I just don't have time to try and decipher a bunch of nonsense.  The whole tyrannical raving about being a figure in womens minds obviously says that you don't have high confidence level in yourself.  Keep trying to build the confidence though, you may succeed.  Or create a bunch of enemies! :Wink:

----------


## twistedtails

> Still here. 
> 
> BG understands Heather....it's no biggee to him. Hopefully he/she will come around. It can take some time to figure BG out.
> 
> Maybe giving out free snake morphs will help.


Now we are talkin'!  I will have the mods delete all my posts once I recieve my box(one with a snake in it that is).

----------


## JLC

> Sorry....BG's mistake.


Hah!  I _knew_ you weren't infallible!  :Razz: 





> BG will say this also. Technically Wolfy broke those "boundaries set by the tos"(she did attack BG). That's OK though....she has plenty of time to fall in love with Big Gunns(and she will).


While we do ask folks not to curse or call names or intentionally troll to start flame wars....we also don't/can't demand that everyone "be nice" to everyone else.  Folks who dislike someone are able to (and bound to) express it.  Now....I suppose some tiny minds might demand that we say "big mouth" is a sort of name-call.....but seriously?  We're all adults here and you don't seem to be the sort who would need to nit-pick at rules for the sake of one-upping an "opponent."  :Wink: 




> To me it seemed as if it was.  I had just as hard of a time reading his posts as I do some of the kids who post on here.  I don't believe he formally introduced himself either.  I just heard of the candy recently and no clue until I searched as to who this "Legend" in his OWN mind was.  I don't care who or what somebody is!  Does is really warrant acting a fool?


How he acts is his own choice and if he chooses to employ a rather unique writing style and voice...  :Confused2:   I don't find it "foolish" so much as entertaining.  But that's just me.  

My own question to you was not meant to be critical.  I just figured if you want to clarify who Neil is, then you should do so.  It's not a secret or a harmful game....just folks having fun.

----------


## Big Gunns

> I'm sure I've been caught acting a fool on here a few times.  I just don't have time to try and decipher a bunch of nonsense.  The whole tyrannical raving about being a figure in womens minds obviously says that you don't have high confidence level in yourself.  Keep trying to build the confidence though, you may succeed.  Or create a bunch of enemies!



One can only hope it works to build his "confidence" :Tears:  :Tears: 

Big Gunns "enemies" are only people he hasn't met yet. :Salute:

----------

Rasmus Skaaning (01-20-2010)

----------


## twistedtails

> One can only hope it works to build his "confidence"
> 
> Big Gunns "enemies" are only people he hasn't met yet.


I'm done....I just had to voice a little.  I'm sure you are a great guy and fun to be around.  Until I meet you....You are on my WANTED(not like that either) list. :Wink:   J/K

----------


## Big Gunns

> Now we are talkin'!  I will have the mods delete all my posts once I recieve my box(one with a snake in it that is).



Does a Pastel male count as a Morph anymore? :ROFL: 




> Hah!  I _knew_ you weren't infallible! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While we do ask folks not to curse or call names or intentionally troll to start flame wars....we also don't/can't demand that everyone "be nice" to everyone else.  Folks who dislike someone are able to (and bound to) express it.  Now....I suppose some tiny minds might demand that we say "big mouth" is a sort of name-call.....but seriously?  We're all adults here and you don't seem to be the sort who would need to nit-pick at rules for the sake of one-upping an "opponent." 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BG is man enough to admit he has a flaw or two........thousand. :Smile: 


Big Gunns is not really worried about what Wolfy said JLC. He understands....and kinda enjoys it. The people that know him best know that. :Very Happy: 

Twisted will come around. It just takes a leeetle bit longer for some. Free snakes always work. :Very Happy:

----------


## Big Gunns

> I'm done....I just had to voice a little.  I'm sure you are a great guy and fun to be around.  Until I meet you....You are on my WANTED(not like that either) list.  J/K



Sure sure twisted. It will be our leeetle secret of your "wants". :ROFL: 


Peace. :Good Job:  You see...he/she came around while I was posting.

ps. The snake will be there tomorrow Twisted.LOL

----------


## twistedtails

> Does a Pastel male count as a Morph anymore?
> 
> Free snakes always work.


Nope, but female is considered a morph!

----------


## twistedtails

> Sure sure twisted. It will be our leeetle secret of your "wants".
> 
> 
> Peace. You see...he/she came around while I was posting.
> 
> ps. The snake will be there tomorrow Twisted.LOL


You weren't supposed to go public with our secret.  I'm assuming you thought you were PMing right????

----------


## snakecharmer3638

Well BG... I don't know who you are and I am not one to pre-judge anyone. Your writing style is a little "Left Field" but if we were all the same and marched to the same drummer things would be quite boring.  




> Free snakes always work.


And as long as your sending out free snakes... I also have a sweet tooth and just love candy, caramel, suger, honey, banana, cinnamon...  You get the picture.  :Very Happy:

----------


## Big Gunns

> Nope, but female is considered a morph!



Is it anymore?




> You weren't supposed to go public with our secret.  I'm assuming you thought you were PMing right????



You're right....this is gonna get Big Gunns more enemies just to get free snakes. :ROFL: 


OK....now Big Gunns is out to deliver the cage. Sorry fans....your next few hours will be BORING. Anticipation is great though....sometimes better than the real thing. Well....that's never the case with Big Gunns. :Very Happy:

----------


## Big Gunns

> Well BG... I don't know who you are and I am not one to pre-judge anyone. Your writing style is a little "Left Field" but if we were all the same and marched to the same drummer things would be quite boring.  
> 
> 
> 
> And as long as your sending out free snakes... I also have a sweet tooth and just love candy, caramel, suger, honey, banana, cinnamon...  You get the picture.



You see. BG knew it. He is a genius just in case you all didn't know. :ROFL:

----------


## snakecharmer3638

> You're right....this is gonna get Big Gunns more enemies just to get free snakes.


DARN!!!

I was supposed to hate you first???

In that case forget what I said about not prejudging you. 

You annoy the hell out of me!!!  :Wink: 

Just PM me and I'll give you my mailing address. :Very Happy:

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## MarkS

I just can't wait... Perhaps when you've delivered your cage (probably a woman sized cage delivered to someone having difficulties staying away from the legend and needed a leetle extra help... ) You can regale us with that exciting tale about how YOU were the very first to produce the pastel spot noses and not that lime-light stealing Tracy person.  It's such an exciting story, everyone make sure to get some popcorn first.   


 :Rolleyes2:

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## NorthernRegius

Neil's a trip...
I wish he'd post more pics & less jabber- but what can you do? Package deal folks. 

He's by far one of the most unique & entertaining folks I've had the pleasure seeing post in the herp forums. He may get a rise from some folks with his banter, but he treads the line at wit... he's not abusive & I've seen quite a few folks who cross that line.

Produces great animals too; I'm the proud owner of one of them.  :Wink: 

And NO it wasn't a freebie (can a guy make a buck?)- just one smoking hot Black Pewter.

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## irishanaconda

man i should get 5 snakes for just reading this damn thread... jebus. glad it was settled about the toff and BG.... ever seen a irishanaconda? heh

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## irishanaconda

wait... i seen a white gator on a page one time lol.... but i dont think BG has ever seen a irishanaconda, there kinda rare

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## Big Gunns

> DARN!!!
> 
> I was supposed to hate you first???
> 
> In that case forget what I said about not prejudging you. 
> 
> You annoy the hell out of me!!! 
> 
> Just PM me and I'll give you my mailing address.


You blew it....you get nothing!!!!!! :Very Happy: 







> I just can't wait... Perhaps when you've delivered your cage (probably a woman sized cage delivered to someone having difficulties staying away from the legend and needed a leetle extra help... ) You can regale us with that exciting tale about how YOU were the very first to produce the pastel spot noses and not that lime-light stealing Tracy person.  It's such an exciting story, everyone make sure to get some popcorn first.



Marky Mark...still living back in those leeetle minions days huh. Pastel Spotnose???? Sounds like an ugly combo to me.  :Wink:  :Very Happy: 




> Neil's a trip...
> I wish he'd post more pics & less jabber- but what can you do? Package deal folks. 
> 
> He's by far one of the most unique & entertaining folks I've had the pleasure seeing post in the herp forums. He may get a rise from some folks with his banter, but he treads the line at wit... he's not abusive & I've seen quite a few folks who cross that line.
> 
> Produces great animals too; I'm the proud owner of one of them. 
> 
> And NO it wasn't a freebie (can a guy make a buck?)- just one smoking hot Black Pewter.



SHHHHHH. Big Gunns is a bad bad bad guy...... He's never produced anything in his life. :Very Happy: 




> man i should get 5 snakes for just reading this damn thread... jebus. glad it was settled about the toff and BG.... ever seen a irishanaconda? heh





> wait... i seen a white gator on a page one time lol.... but i dont think BG has ever seen a irishanaconda, there kinda rare



Well since Big Gunns has a leeeetle Scots Irish in him....yes he has seen an "irishanaconda". :Wink:  :Very Happy:  Probably a world record one also. :ROFL:  :ROFL:

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## Big Gunns

By the way. Sorry for the  :Thread Hijacked: Paul. Big Gunns was trying to help...in his own special way of course. :Very Happy:

----------


## snakecharmer3638

> You blew it....you get nothing!!!!!!


Okay Mr. Wonka... Quess I'll just go back to living with mom, dad, Grandpa Joe, Grandma Josaphine, Grandpa George, and Grandma Georgina.
****Rips up golden ticket****  :Tears:

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## twistedtails

Snozzwangers? Vermicious Knids? What kind of rubbish is that?

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## Twisted Reptiles

"The Egg-dicator can tell the difference between a good egg and a bad egg. If it's a good egg, it's shined up and shipped out all over the world. But if it's a bad egg, down the chute."

Hey BG...go stand on the scale...we wanna see what happens.   :Wink:

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## aybe.sea

so any updates?

maybe they were they just albinos after all?

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## SUPERBALLS

> so any updates?
> 
> maybe they were they just albinos after all?


ditto, all this contraversy and still no pics of how its changing!!!!!!!

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## PolkaDotPenguin

wow so it just took me like 30min to read this whole post!

I hope they prove out to be true toffee's!

I for one would love an update and see the new changes.

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## paul.angelides

Yup, there toffees alright. One shed on and they look like STUNNING Lavs. I'm waiting for their third shed until I snap them as I hear that's the shed you see more change. BUT, all those that had no faith soon will have!!!
Paul

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_LunaBalls_ (11-26-2009),_shaunwithbite_ (11-02-2010)

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## Big Gunns

> wow so it just took me like 30min to read this whole post!
> 
> I hope they prove out to be true toffee's!
> 
> I for one would love an update and see the new changes.


Big Gunns will help you with this problem. Next time you see a long thread, just look to see if Big Gunns posted and read that....this will give you all the important info in that thread and save you the time of reading the rest. :Wink:  :Very Happy: 




> Yup, there toffees alright. One shed on and they look like STUNNING Lavs. I'm waiting for their third shed until I snap them as I hear that's the shed you see more change. BUT, all those that had no faith soon will have!!!
> Paul


"those that had no faith"...you mean all the "forum experts" right? :Very Happy: 

Actually BG doesn't blame them. BG is still trying to figure out how you could possibly think your pics wouldn't cause everything it did. ?????????

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## paul.angelides

> BG is still trying to figure out how you could possibly think your pics wouldn't cause everything it did. ?????????


Don't know what you mean, lol  :Razz: 
Paul

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## mason

wow glad i got to the end of that.

Paul, some people are going to feel very silly very soon. Congrats on producing the worlds first CB toffes and proving the gene out as recessive! 

Hope all is well paul, best of luck for the coming season, don't forget we've a perfect boy for your 'bubbly' het ghost girl  :Smile:

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## Big Gunns

> wow glad i got to the end of that.
> 
> Paul, some people are going to feel very silly very soon. Congrats on producing the worlds first CB toffes and proving the gene out as recessive! 
> 
> Hope all is well paul, best of luck for the coming season, don't forget we've a perfect boy for your 'bubbly' het ghost girl


And this is why we had the problem. Old Pauly just had to make sure he was "first".

You can admit it Pauly.....BG knows why you posted. Big Gunns is sending you 3 boxes of girl scout cookies for being "first"(although if it's the same as the Candy...you're third(Pete 2nd) and BG is keeping his cookies). :Wink:  :Very Happy:  Thin mints are Big Gunns favorite. They must be hard to come by in your country. :Very Happy:

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## Big Gunns

Big Gunns should point this out though. Although it may appear that Big Gunns was here since 07...he was not. Everyone should thank Paul for bringing Big Gunns to BP.net. If it wasn't for this thread, everyone may not have had this ENORMOUS PLEASURE. :Very Happy:  :Very Happy: 

Big Gunns is sure Paul would love all your thanks. :Very Happy:

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## Kevin_Hornby

Hey Paul, have you ever posted updated pics of these?

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## dr del

Heh,

He did on the other forum - I think he's making us sweat.  :Twisted: 


dr del

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## Kevin_Hornby

Which forum? Got a link?

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## dr del

Hi,

They are on captivebred reptile forums - I don't want to link directly to the pictures as I think he has earned the right to be the one to post them.  :Very Happy: 


dr del

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## paul.angelides

Sorry guys, just haven't had the time or good sunshine to get the shots I wanted but as soon as I do I will post. They are definately changing beyond words. There is a picture on my thread on that site but I will get some better shots.  
Paul

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## Bill Buchman

> Sorry guys, just haven't had the time or good sunshine to get the shots I wanted but as soon as I do I will post. They are definately changing beyond words. There is a picture on my thread on that site but I will get some better shots.  
> Paul



I have seen the CB site update pics Paul -- coloring up -- NO DOUBT  :Good Job:   and looks great.  Congrats on proving with a Het x Het breeding.  Best luck this season with your Toffee project.  :Snake:

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## paul.angelides

> I have seen the CB site update pics Paul -- coloring up -- NO DOUBT   and looks great.  Congrats on proving with a Het x Het breeding.  Best luck this season with your Toffee project.


Kind thanks Bill. Great to watch the change and can't wait to see some combos and their development as well. All the best with your projects too. 
Paul

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_Bill Buchman_ (12-29-2009)

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## MyNameisMatt

whats your site? I cant find it?

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## dr del

Aww c'mon,

It was posted like 5 posts ago - you're just not trying.  :Razz: 


dr del

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## SUPERBALLS

you got to tell me you have updated pics now!!!! lets see them :Very Happy:

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## Maurice Tebele

Update pictures!!!

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## N4S

Ya let's see this. lol

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## StuartH

Come on mate get that nikon out!! :Long tongue:

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## SUPERBALLS

helllloooo!!!!!!! :Very Happy:

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## het.pied

just for your info guys and no offense whatssoever, but you guys and gals suck at searching  :Razz:  LOVE YALL

http://www.captivebredreptileforums....proven-18.html

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## SUPERBALLS

im still not seeing a toffe, sorry but it almost looks like a lav

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## Sloanreptiles

> im still not seeing a toffe, sorry but it almost looks like a lav


Mario,
  The Candy did the same thing it kept changing every shed, it will eventually look like a Toffee. Just takes time!

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## ChrisPar

The Toffee Ball reminds me of the Blonde/Carmel Albino Reticulated Pythons.  They start out looking like a normal white phase Albino with bright red eyes, and gradually change into their adult colors.

ChrisP

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## Warocker's Wife

wowwwwie~!!  :Dancin' Banana:

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## paul.angelides

My 'normal' albinos off colour  :Razz: 

Paul

----------

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----------


## B.P.D

Wow those colors are unbelievable. Looks like they can glow in the dark! Can't wait to see these things as adults! I don't think anyone can argue about them not being toffees any more. Good luck with them!

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## LGL

Gorgeous! Thanks for the updated picture, Paul!

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## Russ Lawson

Beautiful animal Paul! Think these are compatible with lavender albino?

Reason I ask is that Grant Whitmer had a female lavender albino that resembled the toffee a bit.

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## paul.angelides

> Beautiful animal Paul! Think these are compatible with lavender albino?
> 
> Reason I ask is that Grant Whitmer had a female lavender albino that resembled the toffee a bit.


I have a Lav and in the flesh they are a million miles apart and at very different stages. 
Paul

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## Bruce Whitehead

I think the smug look on the snake`s face says it all... what a great looking shot and amazing animal. Congrats.  :Smile: 

Bruce

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## TnT Reptiles

Thanks for the new pic Paul. :Good Job:   Looks amazing!! Man I can't wait to hatch out a few of those.  :Dancin' Banana:

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## Patrick Long

Smoking hot.

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## hmj75

its got that banana color to it also..........very nice

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## SquamishSerpents

heeeeeey i'm a pretty decent photographer! send those babies on over here and i'd be happy to snap some shots for ya!  :Wink:

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## AaronP

Sweet Glad to see that the colors do change.

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## RegiusCo

Simply beautiful Paul, thanks for sharing!  :Smile:

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## MarkS

Thanks for posting the updated picture Paul, I just love the ongoing color change on these guys, it's like getting several different snakes in one.  Just beautiful

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## paul.angelides

Thanks for all the kind words guys. There seems to be a few quiet forum experts now  :Razz: 
Just proud to be a part of it all and get great pleasure in sharing them. I will either get to use my camera properly and get some more shots or get a mate to take them again. 




> Thanks for posting the updated picture Paul, I just love the ongoing color change on these guys, it's like getting several different snakes in one.  Just beautiful


Yeah, from an albino to lav, now towards a banana and a TOFFEE next. Can't get much better than rarer and more expensive each shed  :Smile: 
Paul

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## Pinoy Pythons

Amazing color change! I've been thinking a few days ago about this and here it goes. Thanks for the update :Good Job:

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## Big Gunns

> Smoking hot.



"information value"...........0

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## StuartH

> Thanks for all the kind words guys. There seems to be a few quiet forum experts now 
> Just proud to be a part of it all and get great pleasure in sharing them. I will either get to use my camera properly and get some more shots or get a mate to take them again. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, from an albino to lav, now towards a banana and a TOFFEE next. Can't get much better than rarer and more expensive each shed 
> Paul


Go on give us a call Paul..do a discount for pizza and refreshments!! :Dancin' Banana:

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## JLC

What an amazing change!  I'd hoped, but honestly didn't expect such a remarkable change.  At the moment, I'm busy chowing down on my doubting words!  :Yes:   :Chew:   :Yes:  

It must have been extremely frustrating to KNOW you had what you did, but to have so many doubters.  Hopefully the feelings of vindication balance the scales of frustration!  Please, please, please share more pictures with us as they grow!  

Oh, and I agree with Bruce...that's one smug looking snake!  :Very Happy:

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_Carlene16_ (05-11-2011)

----------


## waltah!

> What an amazing change!  I'd hoped, but honestly didn't expect such a remarkable change.  At the moment, I'm busy chowing down on my doubting words!    
> 
> It must have been extremely frustrating to KNOW you had what you did, but to have so many doubters.  Hopefully the feelings of vindication balance the scales of frustration!  Please, please, please share more pictures with us as they grow!  
> 
> Oh, and I agree with Bruce...that's one smug looking snake!


Judy, I hope your words taste as good as mine do!  :Razz:  I knew I would be eating them as soon as I saw baby, yearling and adult Candy balls in person all at once. 
Congrats on your Toffee! :Bowdown:

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## panthercz

Neat!  :Salute:

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## Big Gunns

> What an amazing change!  I'd hoped, but honestly didn't expect such a remarkable change.  At the moment, I'm busy chowing down on my doubting words!    
> 
> It must have been extremely frustrating to KNOW you had what you did, but to have so many doubters.  Hopefully the feelings of vindication balance the scales of frustration!  Please, please, please share more pictures with us as they grow!  
> 
> Oh, and I agree with Bruce...that's one smug looking snake!





> Judy, I hope your words taste as good as mine do!  I knew I would be eating them as soon as I saw baby, yearling and adult Candy balls in person all at once. 
> Congrats on your Toffee!



Big Gunns knew you guys would eat them, although being the selfish person everyone knows he is...he was hoping you didn't. :Very Happy:  :Tears:  :Tears:  :Tears:

----------


## paul.angelides

Thanks for all the kind words again folks, glad you like them. 





> Go on give us a call Paul..do a discount for pizza and refreshments!!


I'm busy saving my pennies and Hob nobs for your return mate. When I find someone decent to do my sight I will give you a shout mate. 
Paul

----------


## StuartH

> Thanks for all the kind words again folks, glad you like them. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm busy saving my pennies and Hob nobs for your return mate. When I find someone decent to do my sight I will give you a shout mate. 
> Paul


 :Wink:  No worries mate..certainly be good to catch up and have a natter. :Good Job:

----------


## JNballs

Hey,

just found this "short" thread, was much to long to read every single word. but the colour change is really amazing!
since i saw the candy/toffee (i think that its the same) i knew: as soon as my finances allow and i find a way to get a pair of hets to europe i will have them here. 
this is my favorite morph, from the first day i saw this, and i'm really glad that it seemd to be prooven right now.

----------


## majorleaguereptiles

Ok, I just really would like some updated pics of these guys! Anyone please feel free

----------


## Big Gunns

> Nobody finds this thread more amusing than Big Gunns. BG thought at least one of his fans would have let people know the one person that could put this thread to rest once and for all. That one person being The Man, The Myth, The Legend in his own mind himself. There is no bigger expert. (yeah...hard to believe huh)
> 
> BG will say this. Congrats Paul. BG can't say he's even 1% happy for you, but congrats anyway.  
> 
> To all the people that are completely lost by now....you'll just have to ask someone that's "in the know" wtf BG is talking about. If you're smart and can read between the lines, you'll realize that Big Gunns has just settled this whole mess with this post.





> What's up skinny?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  There it is fans. The first post ever at BP.net as Big Gunns. BG did have a leeetle undercover name that the crack detective mods sniffed out for a while. That's the reason it says "Big Gunnsd".

As you can clearly see though. The second post that BG quoted speaks of a "top secret mission". A "top secret mission" that still to this day has not been revealed. BG just thought he might point that out. :Razz:  :Very Happy: 

Big Gunns really did enjoy going back and reading from page 16 on when he first made his appearance. Big Gunns misses those days. :ROFL: 

ps. Bad news fans. Another "top secret mission" is coming soon. BG just thought he would warn you to give you time to prepare. No worries though. Big Gunns always returns for his fans. :Good Job:

----------


## gcanibe

:Confused:  :Confused:  :Confused:

----------


## xFenrir

I found this site where they certainly show what their Toffee looks like, but the bottom two images confuse me. I'm assuming they do darken up, but they do seem to have the red eyes as well, which makes me wonder how you'd know you hit on a Toffee and not just an albino.  :Confused: 

http://www.theurbanpython.com/ball-pythons/toffee

----------


## dr del

Hi,

I'm fairly sure it was because he was breeding together hets produced by breeding that animal to a normal.

I could be wrong though.


dr del

----------


## KingPythons

> I found this site where they certainly show what their Toffee looks like, but the bottom two images confuse me. I'm assuming they do darken up, but they do seem to have the red eyes as well, which makes me wonder how you'd know you hit on a Toffee and not just an albino. 
> 
> http://www.theurbanpython.com/ball-pythons/toffee


I'm pretty sure when u spend good money on het toffees(from a well know breeder) you have a good chance at hitting toffees. In conclusion that what ever pops out can't be normal or a normal whatever. From what I know they look like albinos but the pattern is very different, the eyes throw me off but the proof is there.

----------


## TessadasExotics

As babies they look to be albino's but as they get older and mature they evolve into the Toffee colors including the black eyes. You for sure would know by buying them from a reputable breeder and because of the money you would spend on the hets.
Also as a side note The Urban Python has the original Toffee.

----------


## Cendalla

I read the whole dang thing! Congrats on all the hard work :Good Job:

----------


## Anya

I just read it all, too! Whew. Congrats SO much, I rooted for ya while reading this. xD

Would love to seem some recent pix, though! Pretty please??

----------


## paul.angelides

> Would love to seem some recent pix, though! Pretty please??


This thread just won't die  :Dancin' Banana: 
I posted a little while back. The female stopped feeding for a couple of months but off again now and in shed so I will take an undate in a couple of months but still changing  :Good Job: 

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ht=toffee+ball

Paul

----------


## freaky

that is not toffee...for sure :Very Happy:

----------


## python_addict

I was told they were the only bp to go through an eye color change is that true?

----------


## paul.angelides

> I was told they were the only bp to go through an eye color change is that true?


Not sure if the only one but take a look for yourself  :Taz: 
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ht=toffee+ball

Paul

----------


## Dave Green

Paul, they are incredible!!

----------

