# Feeders > Breeding Rats >  Starting small breeding colony???

## xxxxdopeyxxxx

I currently became the owner of 2 female rats (one fancy rat and one dumbo). I have them housed in cage 17" x 30" and 17" high. I would like to start breeding to sustain my collection of 2 bps and help out my buddies with any extra. I have a few questions about it tho. 

1. What type of male rat would be best
2. Should I separate the females with some wire running down the center of the cage?
3. Can I just put the male in the the females and remove him when they are pregnant?

Thank you in advance for all of your help.

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## Michelle.C

> I currently became the owner of 2 female rats (one fancy rat and one dumbo). I have them housed in cage 17" x 30" and 17" high. I would like to start breeding to sustain my collection of 2 bps and help out my buddies with any extra. I have a few questions about it tho. 
> 
> 1. What type of male rat would be best
> 2. Should I separate the females with some wire running down the center of the cage?
> 3. Can I just put the male in the the females and remove him when they are pregnant?
> 
> Thank you in advance for all of your help.


1. One that hasn't been neutered. They aren't the best reproducers if they don't have their junk intact. Otherwise, any kind. Rats are prolific. Just go with one you like.

2. Housing a pair of females together is fine. They will help each other care for the young and keep each other company. I like to breed my females a few weeks apart that are being housed together though. That way you have less issues with a female baby hogging.

3. Some people run harems, not removing the males at all, but I disagree with this method (for the most part). You aren't giving your female a break in between pregnancies and she won't have as many offspring and will die much younger. Just place the male in with the female you want to breed for one week or until you notice her being pregnant. Then put him in his own enclosure, preferably with another male so he doesn't get lonely. 

Also, to add something. If you are looking to save money, you will be unsuccessful only breeding for two snakes. If you are aware of that fact, it's another fun aspect of keeping snakes that many enjoy.

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_het.pied_ (06-14-2010)

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## tomfromtheshade

I had a whole long answer typed out here, but it wasnt the nicest. Almost all of that info is wrong. When I have more time I will get back here and type out a new post.

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## Michelle.C

> I had a whole long answer typed out here, but it wasnt the nicest. Almost all of that info is wrong. When I have more time I will get back here and type out a new post.


I read your post before you edited it and I beg to differ on some of it. I have been raising and breeding rats for over 10 years now, not as feeders, but pets.

You might have issues with feeder breeder males fighting with each other, but well socialized males will never have a serious fight. Keeping rats in a harem style group is VERY stressful to the females.

As far as letting a pair of females raise their young together, 99% of the breeders do it and it works perfectly. I personally let my females raise their young individually (or two weeks apart). I just had a female drop 28 young and another 17. I didn't lose one. Out of all of the years I've been raising rats, I've lost less than ten young. Most due to a mother abandoning her young. Which might I add, hasn't happened since spacing the litters two weeks apart. 

Genetic wise, I said "one he liked". Meaning that color, dumbos, coats, etc do not produce more young. It's often said that albinos produce more, but I've noticed I get larger litters from my self rats. I also wouldn't imagine him going to the pet store picking out the most aggressive male they had. Yes, certain rats carry genetic dispositions. That being said,  I've raised some of the sweetest babies from rats that were aggressive.

To each their own.

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## suzuki4life

Once again, the answer depends if you plan to breed feeders or pets....

for true breeders, "harem style" works fine and the rats will live plenty long enough to be adult feeders at the end of their productive life which btw is the same span as a rats that is given breaks...

All giving breaks does is reduce the number or liters a rats can produce.

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## Michelle.C

> Once again, the answer depends if you plan to breed feeders or pets....
> 
> for true breeders, "harem style" works fine and the rats will live plenty long enough to be adult feeders at the end of their productive life which btw is the same span as a rats that is given breaks...
> 
> All giving breaks does is reduce the number or liters a rats can produce.


I agree, it does come down to pet vs feeder breeder, but isn't there somewhere in the middle? When rodents are used as feeder breeders yet have an excellent quality of life. I know hobbyist that do it both ways, and some in the middle. The rats are kept as borderline pets and the young are used as food. 

That being said, a rat that is bred in a harem group will have the same reproductive life span as one that is given breaks. They will generally not have the same lifespan though. While I've only bred pets for most of my rodent owning years, I used to work at a facility who bred rats in mass (strictly feeder purposes). They bred harem and generally, most females had much shorter lifespans than a normal rat. Even once they were retired and no longer producing (or limited production), most didn't make it to this age. I'd guess the average lifespan was around 1 1/2 years and less. Not saying all breeders treated as harem breeders work out this way, but this was just my experience and what several others have relayed to me. 

I've also noticed smaller litter sizes from harem groups, but I guess it all works out at around the same numbers, seeing as you are having litters more often with the harem group.

But, I agree. It's all about if the OP is wanting strictly feeders, or borderline pets. There are unlimited ways to accomplish the same goal.  :Smile:

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## suzuki4life

> I agree, it does come down to pet vs feeder breeder, but isn't there somewhere in the middle? When rodents are used as feeder breeders yet have an excellent quality of life. I know hobbyist that do it both ways, and some in the middle. The rats are kept as borderline pets and the young are used as food. 
> 
> That being said, a rat that is bred in a harem group will have the same reproductive life span as one that is given breaks. They will generally not have the same lifespan though. While I've only bred pets for most of my rodent owning years, I used to work at a facility who bred rats in mass (strictly feeder purposes). They bred harem and generally, most females had much shorter lifespans than a normal rat. Even once they were retired and no longer producing (or limited production), most didn't make it to this age. I'd guess the average lifespan was around 1 1/2 years and less. Not saying all breeders treated as harem breeders work out this way, but this was just my experience and what several others have relayed to me. 
> 
> I've also noticed smaller litter sizes from harem groups, but I guess it all works out at around the same numbers, seeing as you are having litters more often with the harem group.
> 
> But, I agree. It's all about if the OP is wanting strictly feeders, or borderline pets. There are unlimited ways to accomplish the same goal.



I disagree of course. Rats have roughly a 15-20 month "window" of optimum breeding life. If you allow for pregnancy, nursing and a rest period. You just used over three months for ONE litter. In the same three months, rats under my care would be working on their third litter. So even if you produce and sustain 200% more offspring than I can per litter, you are producing less than 1/3 of the litters.

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## Michelle.C

> I disagree of course. Rats have roughly a 15-20 month "window" of optimum breeding life. If you allow for pregnancy, nursing and a rest period. You just used over three months for ONE litter. In the same three months, rats under my care would be working on their third litter. So even if you produce and sustain 200% more offspring than I can per litter, you are producing less than 1/3 of the litters.


Again, you were correct in your first post. It comes down to if you are breeding for strictly feeders, pets or somewhere in the middle. I've never bred for strictly feeders. I worked at a place that did, but didn't personally ever use these methods.  I did breed somewhere in the middle (for feeders, but treated them like pets). Most strictly feeder breeders are retired at 12-15 months and fed off because production becomes lower.

But, I'll agree to disagree. We all have our methods and since we are obviously breeding for different reasons, it's all good.  :Smile:

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## suzuki4life

> Again, you were correct in your first post. It comes down to if you are breeding for strictly feeders, pets or somewhere in the middle. I've never bred for strictly feeders. I worked at a place that did, but didn't personally ever use these methods.  I did breed somewhere in the middle (for feeders, but treated them like pets). Most strictly feeder breeders are retired at 12-15 months and fed off because production becomes lower.
> 
> But, I'll agree to disagree. We all have our methods and since we are obviously breeding for different reasons, it's all good.


okay so under your logic....


*Most strictly feeder breeders are retired at 12-15 months and fed off because production becomes lower.*

if you rest them and allow them to nurse you will produce a litter once every 3.5-4 months....

add to that your rat needs to be ATLEAST 3-4 months old before it will ever even deliver a litter...

so you feed a rat to adulthood to produce TWO-THREE litters during its lifetime?


You realize that even with nursing tubs and keeping the female separate during their gestation cycles etc they rarely actually ever yield a litter over 15 beyond weaning age?

So in your plan, you want to feed a female rat for 15 months to produce 45 offspring?

is this correct?

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## Michelle.C

Hmmm, I thought I said that I did indeed agree with the certain factors. Such as I am breeding as pet only and you are breeding for strictly feeders. 

That being said, most of my rats throw more than 15 young (more like 22 is an average) and all (with limited exception) reach weaned and past. 

As far as giving them breaks, it depends on the break you give them. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with letting a male breed a female right after giving birth to a litter. I've seen breeders that give them 2 weeks and then breed them again.

And I said feeder breeder produce 12-15 months. With the breeders I know that give females breaks, I've seen these females produce large litters at 18 months and over.

But again, whatever works for you.

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## suzuki4life

> Hmmm, I thought I said that I did indeed agree with the certain factors. Such as I am breeding as pet only and you are breeding for strictly feeders. 
> 
> That being said, most of my rats throw more than 15 young (more like 22 is an average) and all (with limited exception) reach weaned and past. 
> 
> As far as giving them breaks, it depends on the break you give them. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with letting a male breed a female right after giving birth to a litter. I've seen breeders that give them 2 weeks and then breed them again.
> 
> And I said feeder breeder produce 12-15 months. With the breeders I know that give females breaks, I've seen these females produce large litters at 18 months and over.
> 
> But again, whatever works for you.


wow 22 is an average....you should write a book

That is a sincere statement especially since you are claiming that all survive.

I have been doing this for a very long time and never ever seen a litter of 22.

Congrats to you.

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## het.pied

ok why is every thread im reading lately turning into an arguement.... this guy is considering doing small time breeding suzuki. so i believe the information that michelle is giving is good for the OP. plus i am a small time rat breeder myself (food for 6 snakes). and i see it adequate to give my females breaks and not leave the male with them. my male i salways breeding and i havbe more females then i need to keep the supply comng, but that in turn gives my females more time to recoup and they do in turn throw big clutches. i had one clutch of 21 the other day... i know what you do works and it works quite qell, but you are also a big breeder. were just the little people doing out thing.

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## suzuki4life

> ok why is every thread im reading lately turning into an arguement.... this guy is considering doing small time breeding suzuki. so i believe the information that michelle is giving is good for the OP. plus i am a small time rat breeder myself (food for 6 snakes). and i see it adequate to give my females breaks and not leave the male with them. my male i salways breeding and i havbe more females then i need to keep the supply comng, but that in turn gives my females more time to recoup and they do in turn throw big clutches. i had one clutch of 21 the other day... i know what you do works and it works quite qell, but you are also a big breeder. were just the little people doing out thing.



Difference between argument and a discussion is when people lose respect. I asked questions and made sincere statements in reply. I have many breeders and I am still a very small scaled guy compared to others in the country.

If you agree with "Michelle", then congrats. You affirm and convey her beliefs. I do not. I have replied and asked questions. No argument here....

I believe anyone who is producing rats who can and will on a consistent basis, produce 20+ offspring should document and prove their procedure. It is not a normal occurrence. However I would like to see a true case study done with documentation. Might sound overboard but the efforts could be fianancially rewarding if done properly. Just think what such information or maybe a bloodline could be worth to a breeder if they could double their output per rat.

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## Michelle.C

> Difference between argument and a discussion is when people lose respect. I asked questions and made sincere statements in reply. I have many breeders and I am still a very small scaled guy compared to others in the country.
> 
> If you agree with "Michelle", then congrats. You affirm and convey her beliefs. I do not. I have replied and asked questions. No argument here....
> 
> I believe anyone who is producing rats who can and will on a consistent basis, produce 20+ offspring should document and prove their procedure. It is not a normal occurrence. However I would like to see a true case study done with documentation. Might sound overboard but the efforts could be fianancially rewarding if done properly. Just think what such information or maybe a bloodline could be worth to a breeder if they could double their output per rat.


I can assure you, there was no respect lost on my side. I've watched you post on several threads and you give top quality information. I just disagreed. And as I said in my other post, we all have our own methods and not everyone is going to agree with how I'm doing things, but it works for me and it was simply advice. Furthermore, I think it's why I like this site so much, people aren't afraid to give their opinions and it gives advice seekers several options to choose from.

As far as my litter sizes, as stated, I'm not even a breeder who gives 3-4 months off. I give 6-7 months off, as my rats are pets and I only breed to preserve genetics and improve pet quality. 

Concerning my litter sizes, just a few months ago, I had a female throw 30 kittens (pups) and another 16. I will start documenting my litter sizes and maybe make a post on it. I planned on making a post on here about growth (taking picture of the pups every day) and weight. So, that will fall in line. the female I'm fixing to breed has over 20 pups every time so I know it will be a nice experiment.

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## moravaguy

> I currently became the owner of 2 female rats (one fancy rat and one dumbo). I have them housed in cage 17" x 30" and 17" high. I would like to start breeding to sustain my collection of 2 bps and help out my buddies with any extra. I have a few questions about it tho. 
> 
> 1. What type of male rat would be best
> 2. Should I separate the females with some wire running down the center of the cage?
> 3. Can I just put the male in the the females and remove him when they are pregnant?
> 
> Thank you in advance for all of your help.


1. i would get one that i like but remember hes gonna produce babies you like also that you may not want to feed off.

2. i used to separate females untill my last breeding because they helped each other so much that i wont separate females any more. 

3. yes you can separate him and i would because i have a problem with the males eating the young.

also make sure you have a good rodent food source, and i would start to get some more caging because before you know it you will have matureing males fighting over females and such, check out the diy section and pick a way to best suite you for caging to separate the young by sex. and then also think about how you are going to euthanize your rats when they are of size you need. oh and there is also the bedding thing, breeding rats will take lots of bedding so find something good and cheap no cedar or pine. hope this helps a little. and remember that everyone has their own way of doing things and you need to find the way that works best for you. also look into rodent racks, they are amazing! oh and do the math first on breeding vs. buying f/t in bulk. good luck and happy herping :Good Job:

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## suzuki4life

> I can assure you, there was no respect lost on my side. I've watched you post on several threads and you give top quality information. I just disagreed. And as I said in my other post, we all have our own methods and not everyone is going to agree with how I'm doing things, but it works for me and it was simply advice. Furthermore, I think it's why I like this site so much, people aren't afraid to give their opinions and it gives advice seekers several options to choose from.
> 
> As far as my litter sizes, as stated, I'm not even a breeder who gives 3-4 months off. I give 6-7 months off, as my rats are pets and I only breed to preserve genetics and improve pet quality. 
> 
> Concerning my litter sizes, just a few months ago, I had a female throw 30 kittens (pups) and another 16. I will start documenting my litter sizes and maybe make a post on it. I planned on making a post on here about growth (taking picture of the pups every day) and weight. So, that will fall in line. the female I'm fixing to breed has over 20 pups every time so I know it will be a nice experiment.



you figure the secret out to throwing 20-30 per litter and keeping them alive and I will be one of your top supporters. That would be doubling to tripling my current output per rat.
However, my rats do not get those types of breaks and a down time of 6-7 months would not pay off. /in seven months, my mothers would have already produced 60+ offspring....some would be in the 80 range.

difference strokes....

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## het.pied

i am just contribution to what the OP was questioning. i think i remember suzuki saying that one week you produced 1200+ more rats then you needed, now that is a big breeder in my opinion. the OP is someone who is only trying to breed a few rats.

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## suzuki4life

> i am just contribution to what the OP was questioning. i think i remember suzuki saying that one week you produced 1200+ more rats then you needed, now that is a big breeder in my opinion. the OP is someone who is only trying to breed a few rats.



well you are entitled to your opinion....




even when its wrong :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL: 

In reality, if you set your racks up properly, it doesn't take that much to produce big numbers.

In a 1.4 "harem" setup.....you should produce 10 offspring per week average per tub....

The average rack is normally 6 tubs high. So a rack should produce 60 offspring per week. That's only 20 racks to produce 1200.

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## Bobtard

> That's only 20 racks to produce 1200.


Only 20 *extra* racks.

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## suzuki4life

> Only 20 *extra* racks.


 :Good Job: 


Yep.

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## suzuki4life

> Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> but in the peak of the year, I can't keep up with demand. So apparently I need more.

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## het.pied

> well you are entitled to your opinion....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> even when its wrong
> 
> In reality, if you set your racks up properly, it doesn't take that much to produce big numbers.
> 
> ...


i dont see how it is wrong when i have never had a female produce less then 12 offspring, and that is the bare minimum, unless she is getting to the point of being retired....

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## suzuki4life

> i dont see how it is wrong when i have never had a female produce less then 12 offspring, and that is the bare minimum, unless she is getting to the point of being retired....



and how many litters how you actually experienced with your entire colony of 21 rats?


That is the problem with much of the advice I see on these boards. Someone who has 20 rats, has 40 litters over half a year and now they are giving advice. This is like a new car owner giving mechanical advice because they slept in a Holiday Inn. Yes you had good luck, now continue having it for another 10 years and report back.

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## Michelle.C

> well you are entitled to your opinion....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> even when its wrong


Uhm, what? Because someone disagrees with your "perfect" methods, they are automatically wrong? What happened to the respect? Because honestly, imo, that is a HUGE lack of respect.




> and how many litters how you actually experienced with your entire colony of 21 rats?
> 
> 
> That is the problem with much of the advice I see on these boards. Someone who has 20 rats, has 40 litters over half a year and now they are giving advice. This is like a new car owner giving mechanical advice because they slept in a Holiday Inn. Yes you had good luck, now continue having it for another 10 years and report back.


I have no idea about their experience, but quite honestly, yours either. 

Personally, I have been breeding rats for ten plus years. I managed a facility that was producing nearly 20k rats alone, every week. Given, they did harem breedings, but most females only had 4-9 young every litter. I've seen, assisted and done both "styles" of breeding myself (and many more methods). I think it's whatever works for you, works for you.

 I also never went as low as to call you wrong, nor did the other poster. I simply stated that I didn't agree with your methods and wouldn't recommend them PERSONALLY. For some breeders, I'd imagine it does work. I'd also imagine that certain breeders could care less about the feeder animals and don't really care if they are doing things that might harm the animal. And that's fine too. I can see the perspective that to most feeder breeders, they are pest and only considered food items. But I do not see them this way.

I mean, you also play it off like you aren't a large breeder in one post and then in this one, you are acting like you are a large professional breeder. But, I'm going to do the right thing and stop hijacking this thread. The OP has both sides, he will decide himself.

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_littleindiangirl_ (08-15-2010)

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## suzuki4life

> Uhm, what? Because someone disagrees with your "perfect" methods, they are automatically wrong? What happened to the respect? Because honestly, imo, that is a HUGE lack of respect.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea about their experience, but quite honestly, yours either. 
> 
> Personally, I have been breeding rats for ten plus years. I managed a facility that was producing nearly 20k rats alone, every week. Given, they did harem breedings, but most females only had 4-9 young every litter. I've seen, assisted and done both "styles" of breeding myself (and many more methods). I think it's whatever works for you, works for you.
> 
>  I also never went as low as to call you wrong, nor did the other poster. I simply stated that I didn't agree with your methods and wouldn't recommend them PERSONALLY. For some breeders, I'd imagine it does work. I'd also imagine that certain breeders could care less about the feeder animals and don't really care if they are doing things that might harm the animal. And that's fine too. I can see the perspective that to most feeder breeders, they are pest and only considered food items. But I do not see them this way.
> ...


20k rats a week is a good sized breeder. I do not produce anywhere near 20k weekly.

You need to reread the post and take into account the little laughing faces....they mean things...like um "joking". 

Anything else?

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## Michelle.C

> 20k rats a week is a good sized breeder. I do not produce anywhere near 20k weekly.
> 
> You need to reread the post and take into account the little laughing faces....they mean things...like um "joking". 
> 
> Anything else?


If I took it the wrong way, then my deepest apologies. Often things are taken the wrong way on a forum.  :Smile:

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