# Ball Pythons > BP Husbandry >  THG vs Flexwatt...

## Rickys_Reptiles

So I've been using flexwatt for ages, and I don't own even 1" of the "new" THG heat tape.

Originally I heard that THG was going to be so wicked awesome and blah blah, but now I'm hearing from people that the plastic isn't sealed on the edges, and that is is wearing down quickly also. 

Is anyone using the THG that could chime in. Is it good/bad, and why?

----------


## PitOnTheProwl

I have some in my possession but have yet to install it.
The spot they are talking about are the buss bars, I don't see it as a problem BUT then again I usually do two or three layers of sacrificial aluminum tape anyway.  :Wink:

----------


## The Serpent Merchant

I've been using it for awhile now and haven't had a single issue so far.

----------


## Coleslaw007

I've been using it since it came out and haven't had any issues, it feels a lot stronger and more durable than the original stuff. Although I also take precautions so that my tubs never slide straight across the heat tape, my racks are either recessed or have a strip of vertical blind over the edges where tubs would normally slide the most.

----------


## kitedemon

Hosted on Fotki

It seems to have an up side and a down side. The copper side likely should be down.

I hope that the laminate in the future runs out to the edge rather than being short.

It also runs hotter than flexwatt I don't see the need personally more heat just opens the potential for more burns.

----------


## MasonC2K

> It also runs hotter than flexwatt I don't see the need personally more heat just opens the potential for more burns.


Remember that heat tapes are basically a "hack" for us. It's main purpose is industrial not reptile heat. 

I got THG a few months ago when then FW in a rack overheated. RBI only sells THG now so that's why I got it really. Haven't had a problem with it.

----------


## SnowShredder

I used flexwatt for a couple years, and towards the end of that I was having trouble keeping consistent temps. I did not think it was an issue with the flexwatt however, and thought the connections were bad. So I went onto RBI and ordered new stuff (which I thought was flexwatt but it was actually the THG heat tape) and rewired everything and threw out the old flexwatt. I threw out the flexwatt because the copper where my crimps were was very raggedy, probably from moving 3 times and getting tossed around.
So far have had no issues with the THG

----------


## kitedemon

> Remember that heat tapes are basically a "hack" for us. It's main purpose is industrial not reptile heat. 
> 
> I got THG a few months ago when then FW in a rack overheated. RBI only sells THG now so that's why I got it really. Haven't had a problem with it.


Granted, but is not THG custom made for the hobby?  I am very very leery of using anything that runs hotter than 100ºF max. To me if you are going to develop a new product do so, do not just copy an existing product. 

My wish list is simple self regulated to 100ºF. 
Highly water resistant product,
stable even temp,
low profile connectors that are bomb proof.

They failed on two for sure and I have not tested the even temp I hope to soon. 

The best connection (according to Robyn) is still solder. This relies on skill of the user, it is absolutely easier to do however. The eyelet connection is ok, I am not sold, I can crush the eyelets with a pair of pliers although it makes a mess, my wife cannot. She cannot get a tight connection. The crimper makes a tight but also messy connection I expect a proper press to be the best result but it is not supplied and in such a small size hard to come by.

----------

_3skulls_ (07-11-2013)

----------


## Robyn@SYR

> Hosted on Fotki


You have posted this picture multiple times now, but not with proper context. We sent you this sample free of charge. Apparently it was damaged during shipping to Canada, it didn't leave the RBI facility that way. From your response- 

"The tape is robust and tougher than flexwatt. I have not at this point plugged it in yet. The box was mangled."

The corner that you show delaminated was damaged and creased during shipping. That should be trimmed off with a pair of scissors before use. Once trimmed, it won't continue to peel. 

I have offered to replace it, again free of charge, you declined. You also decided to "disinfect" this electric element and let liquid "wick" inside the laminate at the buss bars. That is definitely not recommended.

As for running hot, our goal at THG is consistent heat, and in a range that will work across a wide variety of setups. You should ALWAYS use a heat control (thermostat) for your heat tape setup. It isn't meant to plug into the wall and run wide open for a reptile setup.

And yet the most common "complaint" is probably that it doesn't get hot enough. Once the heat is dissipated by the rack, the cage, the tub, the substrate, some folks still find it challenging to achieve a low 90's hot spot inside their cage. This can be addressed through variables in ambient room temps, cage setup and configuration, depth of substrate, etc. 

One large cage manufacturer has in fact ordered a full custom run of the THG heat tape that runs hotter than our current public tapes. For the same exact reason, under their specific parameters, the final temp was not as hot as they wanted it to be. 

There are many variables to achieving the desired set point inside a cage. Just because your specific setup can reach a higher temp than you would ideally like, that doesn't mean that EVERYONE'S setup gets too hot. A high quality thermostat controls the heat output of heat tape. 

You can post this pic to say "look what can happen when a product is damaged during shipping", but to post it without any context to imply that "it starts delaminating" is just not accurate, nor fair.

----------

DaNeal31 (04-24-2016),_I-KandyReptiles_ (07-12-2013),_martin82531_ (07-12-2013),mattb (07-11-2013),_Royal Hijinx_ (07-12-2013),_satomi325_ (07-12-2013),_SnowShredder_ (07-11-2013),Tomrhargreaves (07-11-2013)

----------


## TheSnakeGuy

I built my first rack a couple months ago with 6 (15") long pieces of 12" wide THG heat tape all wired together. Covered every side and corner with foil tape and it's still working beautifully. I'm using sterilite 41qt tubs that have raised channels so almost no part of the tub itself rubs on the heat tape. I expect this setup to work well for many years.

----------


## Reptilebasics

Actually that picture is a little mis leading, though I do not think intentionally.  Might have been worth you asking about it though-

I make racks a many of you know.  I machine a slot in the shelves with an small lip on it to retain the element in place.  Works great BUT the element I had been using for years varied a bunch in width.  Not a gripe, that is what happens to the laminate as it warms and cools- it stretches and contracts during the manufacturing process.  Fact of life on something like this.  The tension on the reel can cause it to stretch as it is rolled which can make for narrower element.  We are talking 1/16-1/8".  This meant that we would need to test each roll that we got in to see if it fit our slot width properly.  Too wide it would bow in the middle and too narrow it would not stay in place.  We tried each roll as they came in and when we "got lucky" we would set that roll aside for racks.  We originally had two cut files, one for wide and one for narrow batches but the problem there was sending replacement element to people sometimes years after purchase.  The difference is very small but can be very significant as the lip can only be about 1/8" to start with.  I have had 2 other rack makers ask me about this over the last couple of years with the same issue.  Luck of the draw.

So now we are making our own one of my requirements was a way to more consistently get the same width.  If you bother to look you will see that the bottom layer in your pic is wider than the top layer.  That is intentional and it is trimmed to width after it has been run so we can get a much more exact width AFTER it cools.  If you are taping it down then none of this matters but if you do what I do it is a big plus.  Once we got this worked out I have not had a single roll of 4" that I can not use in all of the rack shelves I produce.  Kind of convenient for us reptile folk both now and in the future.  Sorry your box got squished bending your corner- So how about you take the 2.5 seconds it will take to trim the end?  The laminate will not de laminate any more or less than any other element.  The bottom is simply wider than the top.

So while MasonC2K is sort of right he is also not.  Seems to me storage containers were originally used for storage.  Now several reptile related manufacturers make tubs of the same dimensions but with characteristics for reptile use.  Are they hacks?  I guess maybe, but that is often how things get improved. 

 Kitedemon, you seem to think your perfect world is every bodies perfect world.  My world must be very different from yours then.  The element you described will be available someday I am sure, but today is not yet that day.  I will continue to work towards a self regulating element and that day will come but it has not yet.  Have a little faith.   If you do not want to use it then don't but even you must realize that your conditions are not every bodies conditions and even if you had what you wanted it would still not be right all the time and you would need to regulate it anyhow.

----------

_martin82531_ (07-12-2013),mattb (07-11-2013)

----------


## kitedemon

Yes agreed it can happen when a box is damaged but clearly could also happen with sliding a plastic tub over the edge, why is it so hard to say it has an up and down side to protect against possible problems? Better yet IMPROVE the product! You sent a sample for me to test I did not ask you to do so. 

Do not disinfect the tape. OK, that is a MONSTER down side, and perhaps you should mention that in your instructions. Most of us choose to disinfect racks once a month or so, the need to remove the tape monthly, is going to be a problem. Again it has a simple solution, tell people to seal the open end up. When you sell a wire kit include enough pads to do so. 

I have never needed more than 100ºF there are a growing number of UTH on the market that all are regulated. I run my set up in a room averaging 62ºF for most of the year. It is hard to imagine running in a cooler room to me but hey I guess some do. I know that many animals have been burned by flex watt in the past. It runs cooler than THG so one would guess it runs a higher possibility of buns in the event of a t-stat failure. Low temp tape is the final fail safe. 

Instead of doing damage control would it not be better to make the product better? Is that not the point of why you sent the sample to me in the first place. It is what I do, half my job is product evaluation. I find flaws. You sent the sample I never asked for it. The laminate is short of one side it is prone to catching edges (like what happened in shipping) if you place it down problem solved. The solution is super simple but rather than see this you get defensive. Just let people know to place the side you can read UP. Problem solved costs NOTHING. Instead rather than post a hey this could be an issue note you have become defensive. As a designer you simple cannot afford to be defensive you should be proactive and find anything that could be an issue and address it before someone has a big problem that causes harm.

----------


## PitOnTheProwl

> I built my first rack a couple months ago with 6 (15") long pieces of 12" wide THG heat tape all wired together. Covered every side and corner with foil tape and it's still working beautifully. I'm using sterilite 41qt tubs that have raised channels so almost no part of the tub itself rubs on the heat tape. I expect this setup to work well for many years.


This is the same way I build mine, the proper way is to protect the tape  :Good Job:  :Good Job:

----------

_kitedemon_ (07-11-2013),_TheSnakeGuy_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## kitedemon

Far from perfect Rich. The issue isn't how it delaminated  but that it has delaminated at all. It should never have happened. I am pointed out what is top me a flaw. That the layers if you bump the corner it come apart. I believe that repeated sliding over this weak point has a potential to delaminate over time. I am also suggested a simple easy and free solution. The unconcern for others safety is shocking. I expect that kind of attitude from non reptile people but not from a reptile person. Unless you have done cycle tests on the product no one has any idea if the product can delaminate. Keep the short top side down. Simple solution it will not effect performance of the product and does not effect the price.

----------


## Buttons

> Do not disinfect the tape. OK, that is a MONSTER down side, and perhaps you should mention that in your instructions. Most of us choose to disinfect racks once a month or so, the need to remove the tape monthly, is going to be a problem. Again it has a simple solution, *tell people to seal the open end up*. When you sell a wire kit include enough pads to do so.


You can't be serious with this?..... I thought it was common sense that you either tape that end up or don't put liquid in there because there's electricity flowing through it.   :Confused:

----------

_Coleslaw007_ (07-12-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-12-2013),_satomi325_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## kitedemon

I was given fully wired strip. I actually did not ever notice it was open.

Tape likely isn't enough to keep disinfectants out, the pads they supply would be great but the wiring kit has two not four as I suggested they include. Simple solution. Would it not be nice to get a product and a kit to assemble it with ALL the parts you need rather than incomplete?

----------


## Coleslaw007

I personally found the pads they supply to be more than plenty, I trimmed mine a bit and used some where I soldered and some over the distal cut end. It more than covered enough.

I also would think that it should be common sense to prevent tubs from scraping directly over the tape by either routing out  a recess for the tape, or covering the areas the tub edges slide over with something. I've read about ppl using window shims for this, I use plastic. Correct me if I'm working but even strips of foil or electrical tape should work for that I'd think.

Edit: not everyone has the option to have only one side up. A lot of racks are built to where it's one continuous piece of tape winding from one shelf to the next, one shelf one side will be up and the next the other will be.

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

----------


## Buttons

I recently ordered one of the THG kits and I just cut the pad into smaller pieces. The ones they send around almost 2" square which to me was overkill.

----------

_Coleslaw007_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## PitOnTheProwl

First off I quess quoting took the day off today LOL

I am still trying to rap my brain around your thinking. 
I am not trying to bash you or pick on you at all, just understand you reasoning.

I am responding in blue here............





> kitedemon: 
> Better yet IMPROVE the product! You sent a sample for me to test I did not ask you to do so. 
> I do agree that RB never should have sent you a section for free BUT you also wanted to play a big part in the last THG/Flex A Watt debate
> 
> Do not disinfect the tape. OK, that is a MONSTER down side, and perhaps you should mention that in your instructions. Most of us choose to disinfect racks once a month or so, the need to remove the tape monthly, is going to be a problem. Again it has a simple solution, tell people to seal the open end up. When you sell a wire kit include enough pads to do so. 
> Did you not ever wire Flex A Watt?? You have to seal BOTH ends unless you want a little love bite. Also if you have a commercially built rack you shouldn't have more than 4 points of concern. BTW you really only need to disinfect any surfaces that your reptile has/can touch.  **I wont bring up the lid thing again, I promise** 
> 
> I have never needed more than 100ºF there are a growing number of UTH on the market that all are regulated. I run my set up in a room averaging 62ºF for most of the year. It is hard to imagine running in a cooler room to me but hey I guess some do. I know that many animals have been burned by flex watt in the past. It runs cooler than THG so one would guess it runs a higher possibility of buns in the event of a t-stat failure. Low temp tape is the final fail safe. 
> Just because _YOU_ don't need it doesn't mean others don't. I am not talking just snakes either. Do you think THG is only used on ball pythons? My dragons are in our living room that stays around 72 degrees year round and they all have heated floors, they run at about 115 degrees to keep 92ish surface temps. I don't know all of the requirements for all reptiles but I do know uromastics(sp) require even hotter temps. So you need to remember that there are a lot more uses than just yours. 
> ...


What did you get in a "kit" from flex a watt? I know the clip covers were not water proof. Liquid tape can solve all of your problems.

Now if you are using THG or flex a watt in anything but a commercial built rack you are now dealing with a custom/modified system. Heat tape is about the most fool proof product in my mind. I don't know why everyone wants to make such a huge deal out of it. I know I am not the smartest person in any room but I guess my mechanical inclination is more than most. 
If you are using one piece per shelf its not that hard:
1-Connect your wires however you are comfortable but note that soldering is by far the best contact. 
2-Insulate your connections AND the other cut end of the tape. 
3-Use the tape of your choice to hold down all four sides of the heat tape to the shelf.
4-Make your power connections of your choice
5-USE A STAT!!!!!!!!
****My OCD kicks in on step #3, I only use aluminum tape and its one layer on the back, two staggered layers on the sides and three sacrificial staggered layers on the front.

Hasent been that hard for me but I do know a lot of people tend to overthink things.

----------


## kitedemon

I think my point has been lost.

I was very kindly given a product to evaluate. I then came up with initial evaluation and reported it back privately. Then when people speak of using the product I reported what could be issues. And get jumped on.

The product CAN be delaminated. The point I made is protect it from having the edge damaged. If the product is placed with the reading side up (not upside down?) it adds an additional safety. I don't want to see any one have a serious electrical issue.

I did not bring up disinfecting although since it has been brought forward you can't really disinfect an electrical product while it is installed I always remove it  and wash it down. No flex watt never bite me because water and electricity do not mix. After the ten min it takes the disinfectant ,I choose to use, to be effective, I dry it with some shop towel. Not THG how do you disinfect it? Seal the end with the product they supply, easy. The electrical tape I used was not enough to keep the disinfectant out. There is a flaw in the instructions, I pointed that out. The the problem is clear, I SHOULD NOT FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. That makes me a fool? For reading the instructions and following them exactly. I guess I am a fool for ALWAYS following the instructions.

The big issue is why did this NOT come from the Manufacturer? These should be in the instructions so that people whom use the product and are unfamiliar with installation can do so with the maximum safety. Safety is everyones concern, as the saying goes. 

During the initial debates I asked about moisture inclusion and was told NO it is not a problem. Well apparently it is. 

Do you honestly believe every person whom will ever use the product will think to a cut the pads (mine were pre wire and one was covered I din't have enough extra to cut into 3!) Rather than follow the interactions it come with? Will think they need to protect the surface? No, flex watt has taught us that people don't always think of these things there have been far to many fires and serious issues with reptile keeping. 

I am sorry I brought it up. I cannot use it, I am going to replace flex watt in the rack when what I have gets worn as it costs too much to have it legally wired here in Canada. 

The arrogance to believe you can develop a new product and think you have everything dialled in is monumental. It simply does not happen there is many many modifications to improve instructions and counter original flaws I actually wanted to improve a product and increase the safety.

I am sorry I wanted to help and seek to improve a product. All this for install it right side up and 30¢ in tape.

----------


## PitOnTheProwl

I did not lose your post. 
If the THG is installed in a commercial rack, the tubs won't touch it.
Custom racks require custom work, custom doesn't follow most of the manufacturers instructions and they can't assume every possible situation.

----------


## Buttons

Flexwatt has open ends and wears out just like THG........  :Confused: 

They're virtually the same product.

----------


## martin82531

> i've been using it for awhile now and haven't had a single issue so far.


x2

----------


## Robyn@SYR

Our instructions do include sealing the end of the tape. That is the last step.

Kitedemon- nope, you didn't request the sample. But you always post in heat related threads, so I thought you would like to see some first hand. We left off some of the insulating tape so you could see the rivet connection, and no, we didn't include tape for the end, so you could see that side of the lamination. I assumed you would get it all taped up, I apologize if I assumed incorrectly. I will note that for future samples that go out. It is a fine balance between taping everything up, so that the reviewer isn't able to inspect the guts of it, and leaving it open air where things could certainly go wrong (thank goodness you didn't start licking plugged in rivets  :Very Happy: )

I appreciate your feedback, and took it all into consideration. I was really disappointed that the end was damaged in shipping. Easy fix though, just trim it off. 

We feel the THG heat tape is indeed an improvement and step forward in the heat tape world. But we will continue to look for ways to improve. 

Rich is a smart guy, and he has a plethora of brainstorm notes on ways to improve heat tape and other heating products. Some of those ideas are practical, many are fantastical, and a few are holy grail-ish. We will have to see what is achievable.

My concern here is really with the pic that Kitedemon is posting, and the lack of context. I think posting the pic without an explanation of "this is how it was damaged in shipping", and instead leaving it to imply that it just naturally delaminates is misleading and not accurate. I will post that clarification each time I see the pic.

I believe Kitedemon would like to see a heat tape product that runs (wide open) at a temp significantly lower. I understand that desire. Unfortunately, it is a pandora's box. 

We can target a particular temperature in the manufacturing process, we could make a 4" heat tape that only reaches 90F wide open. But it wouldn't be good for many applications. Once you put it under a tub/cage/substrate, you might not see any resultant heat at all.

It would create a confusing mess for the end-user if we offered 4" heat tape that ran at 90F, 95F, 100F, 105F and 120F. Not to mention I would have tens of thousands of feet of each, most of which (on the lower temp side) wouldn't sell.

So we have to choose a target temp that is going to work for most applications, for most customers, and we are going to insist that everyone use a thermostatic control. Our primary goal is to produce a heat tape that runs predictably and consistently, and I think we have achieved that. Our most common feedback is about how consistent the heating result is. Great to hear.

If you would like to get some heat tape that peaks at a much lower temperature, it can be done. As I mentioned, a cage manufacturer got a large quantity of THG heat tape that peaks at a higher temperature, we met that need. But you would need to order 10,000+ ft of it. 

You are also fine to disinfect the heat tape, of course. A damp cloth ON UNPLUGGED HEAT TAPE is fine. Being an electrical component, you need to be careful about the amount of moisture you introduce. That seemed a common sense assumption to me. Having pooling water/disinfectant, or enough where it ends up wicking inside the open end of the heat tape is def not recommended. That doesn't mean you can't disinfect it, just finish the assembly and tape it up first. 

I believe that addresses all of the concerns. Let me know if I have missed something.

I am trying to keep the THGHeat.com site very straightforward, but I am so tempted to add a new line- "THG Heat Tape- Please don't lick the rivets."

Sometimes I crack myself up  :Very Happy:

----------

mattb (07-12-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-12-2013)

----------


## Robyn@SYR

> Flexwatt has open ends and wears out just like THG........ 
> 
> They're virtually the same product.


They are not the same product, that is not true. We include an extra secret laminating step. 

We include a sprinkling of pixie dust in our manufacturing process, pre-laminate. You wouldn't believe how many pixies you have to grind up to make enough of the dust. We've gone through 3 blenders so far.

This is super-proprietary information, so please keep it confidential. This is a PM right?

----------

_Buttons_ (07-12-2013),mattb (07-12-2013)

----------


## norwegn113

> They are not the same product, that is not true. We include an extra secret laminating step. 
> 
> We include a sprinkling of pixie dust in our manufacturing process, pre-laminate. You wouldn't believe how many pixies you have to grind up to make enough of the dust. We've gone through 3 blenders so far.
> 
> This is super-proprietary information, so please keep it confidential. This is a PM right?


OMG! ROFL. this is too funny! I love it! Its good to see that some people in this world still have a sense of humor! way to go! :Good Job:

----------

_Robyn@SYR_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## norwegn113

> Our instructions do include sealing the end of the tape. That is the last step.
> 
> Kitedemon- nope, you didn't request the sample. But you always post in heat related threads, so I thought you would like to see some first hand. We left off some of the insulating tape so you could see the rivet connection, and no, we didn't include tape for the end, so you could see that side of the lamination. I assumed you would get it all taped up, I apologize if I assumed incorrectly. I will note that for future samples that go out. It is a fine balance between taping everything up, so that the reviewer isn't able to inspect the guts of it, and leaving it open air where things could certainly go wrong (thank goodness you didn't start licking plugged in rivets )
> 
> I appreciate your feedback, and took it all into consideration. I was really disappointed that the end was damaged in shipping. Easy fix though, just trim it off. 
> 
> We feel the THG heat tape is indeed an improvement and step forward in the heat tape world. But we will continue to look for ways to improve. 
> 
> Rich is a smart guy, and he has a plethora of brainstorm notes on ways to improve heat tape and other heating products. Some of those ideas are practical, many are fantastical, and a few are holy grail-ish. We will have to see what is achievable.
> ...


 Most of the users on this site do realize that your product was designed to be a "one size fits all " to accommodate a variety of user applications. That is why it is a must and highly emphasized that you need to use a thermostat with this product ( one with a fail safe is even better! ) Not all of the users of your product are as confrontational as Kitedemon. Me and him have gone back and forth in a never ending battle as whether or not RHP will properly heat a cage for terrestrial animals. Just know that most of us appreciate the research and effort that goes into designing a product that will enhance the comfort of our reptiles! Keep up the Good work! Sincerely Jeff

----------

_Buttons_ (07-12-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-12-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-12-2013)

----------

