# Ball Pythons > BP Husbandry >  Would top Soil be a awful choice for a substrate?

## brownec_870

Would top Soil be a awful choice for a substrate?

 :Saber duel:

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## Royal Morphz

when it come to feeding and cleaning it would be a problem i'd go with a more commercially  made product like aspen or Paper

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## DutchHerp

I don't see what's the problem.

Some _Morelia_ people use biologically active substrate which includes soil...if you make it thick enough you could put in some plants and use fecal matter as fertilizer.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

You could, but it would be a cleaning nightmare.

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## brownec_870

Since its so cheap I would change it every month and just SHOP VAC it out. Also I fed in a sepreate area so she wouldnt be eating on it at all. How would it do with humidity?

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## dr del

Hi,

Wouldn't it be full of bugs?


dr del

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## Beardedragon

That does sound like an awful idea.

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## RebelYell83

Actually,i know of people who use soil/sand mixture,30% sand,and praise it,they use it mostly for thier venomous,so pure soil would be great if you think about it,what does a ball python burrow in and move on,and eat on in the wild?,if it doesnt harm them there,how would it in a cage?,if concerned about bugs(though i wouldnt be to over concerned,once again,wild snakes in soil,live fine),then spread it on a cookie sheet in your over for 45 minutes at 325 or so degrees,kill anything in it,then your good to go.i am considering switching my blood over to this,to help with humidity issues,basically,we as reptile keepers,try to replicate the humidity and temperatures of thier natural region,but then shun the idea of using the stuff they live on and burrow in in nature,as a substrate.............

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## Ricky

I use a bioactive soil mix for my chondro's and it works out great.  I simply scoop out the larger "chunks" and the bacteria and bugs (worms) in the soil break down the rest.  It's actually alot less work once the setup is stabilized.  Philippe de Vosjoli has a great book, "The Art of Keeping Snakes" that goes into this method in detail.  The only thing I'd be worried about with a ball is keeping the top layer of soil dry enough, you don't want constant contact with moisture.

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## littleindiangirl

I recommend reading The Art of Keeping Snakes by Vosjoli (sp). We are using a bioactive substrate for at least one snake, there IS NO CLEANING (besides sheds and big poo).  :Wink:

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## RebelYell83

> I recommend reading The Art of Keeping Snakes by Vosjoli (sp). We are using a bioactive substrate for at least one snake, there IS NO CLEANING (besides sheds and big poo).


wouldnt you still want to do monthly complete substrate changes,or does using soil,change the rules of the game?,i could just read the book,,but you have,so you will work :Razz:  :Razz:

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## littleindiangirl

Nope, you destroy the bioactive substrate by switching it out. It's a complete system in there, you water it, airate it, and thats about it.

Read the book, you'll like it.  :Wink:

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## RebelYell83

> Nope, you destroy the bioactive substrate by switching it out. It's a complete system in there, you water it, airate it, and thats about it.
> 
> Read the book, you'll like it.


that actually sounds really cool,,kinda the lazymans snake cleaning,,lol

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## dr del

Hi,

I do know about the bioactive substrate idea - but that wasn't what I thought was being discussed. There is a lot more to getting a stable and self regulating biosphere than combining soil and snake crap.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

And by the way I do have to point out the fact they do it in nature is not a good argument - they get parasites and infections in nature too.  :Wink: 

If you can get a fully bio-active system stabilized and working for you then by all means go for it - and I would love to see reports on how it works out over time.

If you're just going to throw dirt in the bottom of a cage then I would seriously rethink the idea.

Just my tuppence worth.


dr del

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> I recommend reading The Art of Keeping Snakes by Vosjoli (sp). We are using a bioactive substrate for at least one snake, there IS NO CLEANING (besides sheds and big poo).


connie, 

Mind giving me the cliff notes version on this?  don't think there is any chance I will use it but I am very interested in learning more about what you are talking about.

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## RebelYell83

> Hi,
> 
> I do know about the bioactive substrate idea - but that wasn't what I thought was being discussed. There is a lot more to getting a stable and self regulating biosphere than combining soil and snake crap. 
> 
> And by the way I do have to point out the fact they do it in nature is not a good argument - they get parasites and infections in nature too. 
> 
> If you can get a fully bio-active system stabilized and working for you then by all means go for it - and I would love to see reports on how it works out over time.
> 
> If you're just going to throw dirt in the bottom of a cage then I would seriously rethink the idea.
> ...


not arguing the parasite point at all,if i were to do it,which i might,i would put it in the oven for sterilization.I do know people who work in reptile education who use soil straight from the ground,and have never had an issue

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## littleindiangirl

Well, pretty much your setting up a little bioactive terrarium. It's basically 3 layers. Bottom is the drainage layer. Middle is the moist layer for worms, top is the bioactive substrate (leaf layers are optional).

Bioactive means good germs are reproducing and keeping bad germs at bay. (sorta, lol)

Partial changing of the top substrate occurs once every 6 - 12 months. This helps avoid buildup of nitrates and deposits.

We are using it in a desert vivaria with our MBK. We used a soil mixture that allowed for a lot of drainage, with a deep layer for the worms.

All BSS systems need HIGH VENTILATION. Meaning, no plastic tubs.


Top soil is not doing even a part of what the BSS does, and using it in any small enclosure is going to fail miserably with the proliferation of bad bacteria and fungus.

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## rebeccabecca

I personally love eco earth(coconut grounds not chips). They sell in huge bricks in most gardening sections. it's enviromentally friendly, easy to store and helps keep the tank's humidity levels perfect, I use it dry for my desert animals, wet for my rainforest. If they eat it it won't hurt them and it doesn't mold. what more can you want :Smile:  I keep lots of my animals on it frogs,geckos,snakes,lizards. It' the best thing to use next to paper towels.

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## Ricky

> Hi,
> 
> There is a lot more to getting a stable and self regulating biosphere than combining soil and snake crap. 
> 
> ......
> 
> If you're just going to throw dirt in the bottom of a cage then I would seriously rethink the idea.
> 
> Just my tuppence worth.
> ...


Good point, once a bioactive system is set up, maintenance is minimal, but this is far from a "lazy man's" approach.  If you're not careful, you'll end up creating a haven for mold and "bad" bacteria.

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## daniel1983

They live mostly on soil in the wild.....not aspen bedding.

 If a snake does not do well on soil, it is the keeper's fault for not knowing what they are doing. I keep my monitors in big boxes of soil without any issues and have kept snakes with soils without problems.

If you use soil just make sure that you use soil correctly. Soil is fine by itself and does not have to be 'bioactive'. In any instance if you do not know how to 'keep' soil, it can get moldly, shroomy and all other sorts of mess. Temperature, humidity and the type/origin of soil all play big parts in how things work. Too much moisture in the soil can cause fungus and bacterial infections such as scale rot. Sand, topsoil, garden soil.....all have different properties and come from different environments. 

Know the animal you keep and research it's natural history......you will learn alot about what you can and can not do.

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## littleindiangirl

> They live mostly on soil in the wild.....not aspen bedding.
> 
>  If a snake does not do well on soil, it is the keeper's fault for not knowing what they are doing. I keep my monitors in big boxes of soil without any issues and have kept snakes with soils without problems.
> 
> If you use soil just make sure that you use soil correctly. Soil is fine by itself and does not have to be 'bioactive'. In any instance if you do not know how to 'keep' soil, it can get moldly, shroomy and all other sorts of mess. Temperature, humidity and the type/origin of soil all play big parts in how things work. Too much moisture in the soil can cause fungus and bacterial infections such as scale rot. Sand, topsoil, garden soil.....all have different properties and come from different environments. 
> 
> Know the animal you keep and research it's natural history......you will learn alot about what you can and can not do.


That's pretty much the basics behind BSS. Learning how to maintain soil in an environment so you do not get moldy, shroomy and all other sorts of mess in there.

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## Exotic Ectotherms

> I personally love eco earth(coconut grounds not chips). They sell in huge bricks in most gardening sections. it's enviromentally friendly, easy to store and helps keep the tank's humidity levels perfect, I use it dry for my desert animals, wet for my rainforest. If they eat it it won't hurt them and it doesn't mold. what more can you want I keep lots of my animals on it frogs,geckos,snakes,lizards. It' the best thing to use next to paper towels.


I second this.  The best thing I ever did was switch to eco earth.  No smell, perfect humidity, and it looks nice.  I spot clean and then do a 100% change once a month.  I don't buy it in the bricks though....I buy the uncompressed bag.  Its like $8 instead of $4...but I only use 1 bag per month, so its not so bad.  I find the bricks to be a pain in the rear to prepare.

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## VegaBP

> I second this.  The best thing I ever did was switch to eco earth.  No smell, perfect humidity, and it looks nice.  I spot clean and then do a 100% change once a month.  I don't buy it in the bricks though....I buy the uncompressed bag.  Its like $8 instead of $4...but I only use 1 bag per month, so its not so bad.  I find the bricks to be a pain in the rear to prepare.


Where do you get it in a bag? I've looked for it in not brick form but its harder to find than I thought.

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