# Ball Pythons > BP Husbandry >  Brought home a severely underweight BP baby. Please help me get her back on track

## Spoons

So I went to a big box pet store today. And, like I always do, I looked at the BPs. There were seven of them in the tank, and all looked okay except one. She was lying on the Aspen in the middle of the tank. Her whole body is deflated, she's wrinkly with sagging skin. I grabbed an employee and the manager and pointed it out, and they explained the feeding protocol and what they were doing about it (not much.) I was horrified to hear they feed the BPs pinkies. Stuck shed, too.  

I have always been firmly on the side of "don't buy from big box stores" because it just feeds the practice. But when the employee took her out, and she barely even moved and just kind of hung mostly limp, my heart shattered. I asked if, given her condition, they would discount her price. They said I could take her for 50% off, and on top of that 50% off of everything I bought if I also needed supplies. It sounds like the non manager guy has snakes of his own and knows she's in bad shape but per store protocols can't do much about it, and really wants her in a good home. The 50% off the rest of his purchase was his idea, not his bosses.

I took the offer. They brought her paperwork, and it looks like she hasn't eaten in 7 weeks save for one pinkie last Thursday. She's lost 11 grams since arriving (at 12 they take them to the vet for force feeding, but the non-manager employee said last time they did that the snake died there.) She's set up with everything but a heat pad, waiting on a thermostat for that. 

My question is when should I try feeding? She's so thin I want to get her to eat as fast as I can, but she's just been moved so I know she needs a few days to settle. What size? I am horribly squeamish about feeding live but if I need To I will. I wanted to try a fuzzy mouse first, with the hopes that with proper humidity she will take it, but should I offer live right off the bat? She HAS eaten frozen, just not recently, I'd guessed because of horrid husbandry. I'm not sure what I should do for her to get her back on track. 

Help? Here's a pic of the poor girl. 

Edit: idk if the pic is showing, so here's a direct link: https://imgur.com/a/x1xPRBH

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## Zincubus

> So I went to a big box pet store today. And, like I always do, I looked at the BPs. There were seven of them in the tank, and all looked okay except one. She was lying on the Aspen in the middle of the tank. Her whole body is deflated, she's wrinkly with sagging skin. I grabbed an employee and the manager and pointed it out, and they explained the feeding protocol and what they were doing about it (not much.) I was horrified to hear they feed the BPs pinkies. Stuck shed, too.  
> 
> I have always been firmly on the side of "don't buy from big box stores" because it just feeds the practice. But when the employee took her out, and she barely even moved and just kind of hung mostly limp, my heart shattered. I asked if, given her condition, they would discount her price. They said I could take her for 50% off, and on top of that 50% off of everything I bought if I also needed supplies. It sounds like the non manager guy has snakes of his own and knows she's in bad shape but per store protocols can't do much about it, and really wants her in a good home. The 50% off the rest of his purchase was his idea, not his bosses.
> 
> I took the offer. They brought her paperwork, and it looks like she hasn't eaten in 7 weeks save for one pinkie last Thursday. She's lost 11 grams since arriving (at 12 they take them to the vet for force feeding, but the non-manager employee said last time they did that the snake died there.) She's set up with everything but a heat pad, waiting on a thermostat for that. 
> 
> My question is when should I try feeding? She's so thin I want to get her to eat as fast as I can, but she's just been moved so I know she needs a few days to settle. What size? I am horribly squeamish about feeding live but if I need To I will. I wanted to try a fuzzy mouse first, with the hopes that with proper humidity she will take it, but should I offer live right off the bat? She HAS eaten frozen, just not recently, I'd guessed because of horrid husbandry. I'm not sure what I should do for her to get her back on track. 
> 
> Help? Here's a pic of the poor girl. 
> ...


I possibly won't be popular here but here goes ..

Those wrinkles could well be signs of dehydration ... which given the store conditions is perfectly feasible  ( aspen substrate , presumably low humidity etc ) .

Now IF it is even slightly dehydrated it won't look or feel well , certainly won't be eating ( despite the paperwork suggesting it ate one pinky last week ) ..

I'd give it a 25 minute soak in snake temp water , in a sealed  plastic tub ( with loads of air holes in the lid ) .

After the soak it will look better , plumper and will probably feel much better .  Then leave it  completely alone for at least 7 days to let it settle down ...

For its first feeling attempt - leave it till the evening , dim lighting  - WAIT until the snake is settled UNDER a hide and then try a small frozen-thawed mouse . Use the hairdryer method where you give the well thawed mouse a ten second blast with a hairdryer then offer the mouse INSTANTLY. .... Don't give up if it doesn't grab it - give it another hot blast  and again offer INSTANTLY .

THIS is only my opinion ... 

Here is a picture of the snake in question in case you can't see it above ..

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_Armiyana_ (08-05-2018),*Bogertophis* (08-05-2018),C.Marie (08-05-2018),LyraIsGray (05-19-2020),_MR Snakes_ (12-05-2018),_Spoons_ (08-05-2018)

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## WhompingWillow

We recently got a BP from a big box store, also in bad shape. Moreso because of horrible stuck shed, but he also looks a bit underweight. I got his stuck shed off the first night we had him and fed 2 days later. He hadn't yet had anything to eat at the store.

What's her weight? Maybe try F/T mouse with the hairdryer trick, with the mouse about 10% of her bodyweight?

I hope she pulls through for you and recovers quickly in your care.

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_MR Snakes_ (12-05-2018),_Spoons_ (08-05-2018)

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## Spoons

She is 50 grams right now I think is what her paperwork said. I'll double check. I ran out to find a thermostat but can't find one for under 60 bucks, so I'm going to order one. In the meantime I'll take the thermostat from my adult BP, since he will be fine without one for a few days and I think she needs it more right now.

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*Bogertophis* (08-05-2018),_MR Snakes_ (12-05-2018)

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## Bogertophis

I hope it's nothing that can't be fixed with proper husbandry & some "TLC".

I totally agree with Zincubus...hydration is more important than food right now- without that, she either won't eat or be able to digest it if she does.

Pinkies are too small, of course...I'd follow Zincubus' directions, offer f/t first...& a live fuzzy only as last resort.

How long before you get a thermostat?  She still needs proper temperature options.  (I'm sure you know that).

Hope that her discounted price makes up for her issues & that all goes well for you...it's so hard to ignore animals suffering, even when it feeds the system.

edit:  I see you've already arrived at a temporary solution for the thermostat.   :Good Job:    Wishing you & snake the very best of luck.

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_MR Snakes_ (12-05-2018),_Spoons_ (08-05-2018),Zincubus (08-05-2018)

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## Zincubus

> I hope it's nothing that can't be fixed with proper husbandry & some "TLC".
> 
> I totally agree with Zincubus...hydration is more important than food right now- without that, she either won't eat or be able to digest it if she does.
> 
> Pinkies are too small, of course...I'd follow Zincubus' directions, offer f/t first...& a live fuzzy only as last resort.
> 
> How long before you get a thermostat?  She still needs proper temperature options.  (I'm sure you know that).
> 
> Hope that her discounted price makes up for her issues & that all goes well for you...it's so hard to ignore animals suffering, even when it feeds the system.
> ...


Well I know some in this forum are rather opposed to the 'soaking' of snakes and whilst I don't agree with regular soaking when you see a wrinkly snake like that one who's got such a bad back story - dehydration is a very real possibility - and a short soak as I described works absolute wonders -which can be seen IMMEDIATELY after the soak ..

Anybody soaking your Royals you MUST stay with the snake don't just leave it and walk away - they are fabulous escape artists .
  [ I purposely chose to say ROYALS  and not B*lls   :Wink: ]


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## Alter-Echo

Why would anyone care if you soak a snake? I have given mine baths, typically I do this mostly after just getting them to encourage them to drink and hydrate, so there is a time and a place for it.

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## Spoons

Okay, I've got her soaking in waterabout half as deep as her body while I set the thermostat up. Her skin feels so loose, I feel awful for her. I put in a few washcloths for her to slither on to help the loose shed. 

I noticed a red patch on her side. Anyone have any ideas what it might be? It can't be a burn, the tank at the store didn't have any heating pads. Maybe just a scuff? I'll try to attach it but I'll also direct link a picture since it doesn't seem to always work attaching pics from my phone. 

https://i.imgur.com/eZlnV44.jpg

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*Bogertophis* (08-05-2018),e_nigma (05-08-2020),_MR Snakes_ (12-05-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> Well I know some in this forum are rather opposed to the 'soaking' of snakes and whilst I don't agree with regular soaking when you see a wrinkly snake like that one who's got such a bad back story - dehydration is a very real possibility - and a short soak as I described works absolute wonders -which can be seen IMMEDIATELY after the soak ..
> 
> Anybody soaking your Royals you MUST stay with the snake don't just leave it and walk away - they are fabulous escape artists .
>   [ I purposely chose to say ROYALS  and not B*lls  ]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Precisely! Whether it's chronic dehydration, a temporary shed issue or an "unknown" that presents the way this BP has, I'd be soaking it...& yes, only with supervision!
And if the "bath" needs to be repeated, I'd do that as well...but see how it goes first.  One way to reduce any stress is to keep the water "luke-warm" & shallow, handle 
the snake gently, and even add some traction in the form of a small towel under the water & under the snake.  In fact, if the towel is thoroughly saturated, the water 
can be even more shallow with the towel draped over the snake's body (all except the head)- just another way to do it.

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e_nigma (05-08-2020),_Spoons_ (08-05-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Hard to say what that red area is...could be a burn from overhead light? (too close to screen?)  Or just a scrape...either way, when she's dry I'd put regular 
Neosporin ointment on it.

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_Armiyana_ (08-05-2018),_MR Snakes_ (12-05-2018),_Spoons_ (08-05-2018)

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## richardhind1972

Poor thing,good luck with her progress, I think after a good soak she will feel a bit better,looks like it could be a burn but not sure from the pics ,should heal up after a few sheds ,I would still get it looked at by a vet,just in case of infection 
Fingers crossed for you


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_Spoons_ (08-05-2018)

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## Spoons

Well, she got her bath. All I had on hand was a 10 gallon (I wanted to do the dollar per gallon sale on a tank but they only go up to 29 and I know she'll outgrow it) but it suits her for now. I took Argus's thermostat and hooked it up for her, he will be fine for a few days without. She's now all snug inside her warm hide. I will give her some days before trying to feed. She will be okay for a few days? I want to offer as soon as it'll be okay to do so.

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*Bogertophis* (08-05-2018),_richardhind1972_ (08-05-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Yes, she's OK for a few days.  You did good...let her rest.

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_richardhind1972_ (08-05-2018),Seansmama1213 (08-05-2018),Zincubus (08-05-2018)

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## Sunnieskys

you said they were feeding pinkies so it going to assume Petsmart! Grrrrrrrrrr!

ok what you need to do it start her small si ce she lost so much weight. Start with fuzzies. I hate starting so small but she is dehydrated and starving. One fuzzy every 4 day for 4 feedings. Then 2 fuzzies every four days for four feedings, then one hopper every four days for four feedings, 2 hoppers every four days then go to adult mouse. 

Omg that poor baby! I hate petsmarts snake protocol. They just piss me right off!

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## Spoons

Not PetSmart. I won't name it but that doesn't exactly leave many other choices, haha. 

I dont think ANY big box store has an appropriate snake care protocol. You can't just have a set of written in stone rules when it comes to animals and expect them to work for 100% of animals that come in. Poor babies. I have good hopes for her though. She perked up quite a bit. She still hangs pretty limp when I picked her up to put her away after her bath, but she seemed a little more active and less like a wet noodle.

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## Zincubus

> Why would anyone care if you soak a snake? I have given mine baths, typically I do this mostly after just getting them to encourage them to drink and hydrate, so there is a time and a place for it.


Some do disapprove and quite strongly too ....


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## Zincubus

> Well, she got her bath. All I had on hand was a 10 gallon (I wanted to do the dollar per gallon sale on a tank but they only go up to 29 and I know she'll outgrow it) but it suits her for now. I took Argus's thermostat and hooked it up for her, he will be fine for a few days without. She's now all snug inside her warm hide. I will give her some days before trying to feed. She will be okay for a few days? I want to offer as soon as it'll be okay to do so.


Somebody just suggested feeding her something smallish to start with and I tend to agree ..

I myself would leave her alone for 7 days now , just make sure she has access to clean , fresh water .

She's had a short soak and should feel better but still needs time to settle in and recuperate- in my opinion.
Just remember to try the hairdryer method at least for the first feeding attempt then once she's fed you will both have more confidence.


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## Zincubus

As regards her soak .... how deep was the water ?? Did she have her head under water at any time ??

I've noticed  that if it's deep enough and has a lid with air holes - they sometimes make a point of staying under for a while and they must drink some when they are as they look so much plumper straight afterwards.


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## Spoons

Everything I've ever read says to keep the water no deeper than half of the thickest part of their body, so that's about how deep it was. I didn't see her head under at any time, she mostly poked around at the lid and wanted out. 

I will have to buy a hair dryer. I'm a woman, but I still don't have one! I've always used just hot water. But then again, I've only ever been feeding a ball python with a healthy appetite, and now I'm also feeding a sick (and picky!) Sand boa and an underweight, dehydrated baby ball. Might be worth it!

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## bcr229

> I will have to buy a hair dryer. I'm a woman, but I still don't have one! I've always used just hot water.


Nothing wrong with using warm water to bring a f/t feeder up to temperature, especially if the snake is dehydrated.  Eating a wet feeder will help rehydrate the snake.

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_zina10_ (10-02-2018),Zincubus (08-06-2018)

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## Sunnieskys

> Not PetSmart. I won't name it but that doesn't exactly leave many other choices, haha. 
> 
> I dont think ANY big box store has an appropriate snake care protocol. You can't just have a set of written in stone rules when it comes to animals and expect them to work for 100% of animals that come in. Poor babies. I have good hopes for her though. She perked up quite a bit. She still hangs pretty limp when I picked her up to put her away after her bath, but she seemed a little more active and less like a wet noodle.


I work for Petco and that is NOT protocol. I take care of my babies. And mine are on adult mice. So if they are saying pinkies I need the location right now!

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_Ashley96_ (12-19-2018),*Bogertophis* (08-05-2018)

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## Spoons

The snakes at your location are very lucky to have someone who knows how to take care of them. I'm glad that there are the good ones out there, but it definitely seems to be the exception, not the rule

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## Armiyana

Keep an eye on that red spot for sure! Like Bogertophis said, try some regular neosporin.  The stuff with painkillers is bad for them. Also... until that spot heals, I would keep the baby on paper towels.
Hopefully, it will clear up with some good humidity, meals and a good shed. Malnourished babies like this will get very dry and delicate skin, so even just scraping up against a rock hide may have done this. Once she gets into a good feeding schedule and a couple of good sheds and you won't have that problem again.

Hopefully she will eat the f/t for you! If not, I would try a live fuzzy mouse.
I adopted a pastel gal from a big box who refused f/t for a long time. Almost 3 months. They were assist feeding her pinkies each week after the first month, but she was just waiting on something live. She was thin, but not nearly as dehydrated/malnourished as this little one. When I took her we popped her in a deli cup, went to the reptile store and she ate the live right there. 5 months later and she's been eating f/t like a champ and gaining weight quick.

I hope this little one turns around quick.
If she is still refusing  meals and that red spot starts to look worse or her belly starts turning red, she needs a vet visit asap. But hopefully she realizes how lucky she is and does well for you!

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*Bogertophis* (08-05-2018)

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## Armiyana

> I work for Petco and that is NOT protocol. I take care of my babies. And mine are on adult mice. So if they are saying pinkies I need the location right now!


I actually work for Petsmart and that is not the policy for them either. So if you do see something like this, ask for the corporate # and file a complaint.

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*Bogertophis* (08-05-2018)

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## Spoons

Thank you, I think I will find a way to contact corporate. I don't think there's any excuse for a snake to look like this in their sale tanks. 

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_Armiyana_ (08-05-2018),*Bogertophis* (08-05-2018),silverdreams (08-06-2018),_Sunnieskys_ (08-06-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> Everything I've ever read says to keep the water no deeper than half of the thickest part of their body, so that's about how deep it was. I didn't see her head under at any time, she mostly poked around at the lid and wanted out. 
> 
> I will have to buy a hair dryer. I'm a woman, but I still don't have one! I've always used just hot water. But then again, I've only ever been feeding a ball python with a healthy appetite, and now I'm also feeding a sick (and picky!) Sand boa and an underweight, dehydrated baby ball. Might be worth it!


If she didn't drink while in the bath, another way you can encourage her to drink is to gently dribble water over her head, like under gently running tap.  (it mimics 
rain, which snakes instinctively drink from)

I only use hot water to warm feeders too, but then again, I don't currently have any snakes that are that fussy.  I agree- the tiny bit of extra hydration from soaking 
prey items in warm water could only be a plus.

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## Alter-Echo

> Some do disapprove and quite strongly too ....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yeah, I've heard people say the same about soaking bearded dragons too but none of mine have ever seemed to mind and often drink eagerly, so I'll keep doing it till there is a law against it. Lol

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*Bogertophis* (08-06-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> Some do disapprove and quite strongly too ....


I'm curious to know the reason(s) they disapprove?

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## Zincubus

> Yeah, I've heard people say the same about soaking bearded dragons too but none of mine have ever seemed to mind and often drink eagerly, so I'll keep doing it till there is a law against it. Lol


Over here in the UK they seem rather more tolerant of the occasional soak , wether it be for a dehydrated snake or even to sort out a  very stubborn shed when a snake just looks a mess as a result of poor living conditions .

Oddly enough ... Many years ago I collected an beaut young albino Royal off a backstreet breeder  and it just wouldn't eat for me . Then few weeks later after I posted a photo on a forum , one of the first replies said it was rather dehydrated and needed a soak urgently . 

Thing is I was told to use a see through tub with a lid , put loads of air holes in the top , fill it up to 2/3 with snake-temp  water , put the snake in , cover with a towel to make it darker . 

Leave to soak for 25 minutes BUT stay with it , don't even get distracted as they are great escape artists .

Initially the snake will move around the tub rather quickly as it checks every nook and cranny to try and escape ( just as many do when they're put in a new viv or rub)  . 

After a minute or so they're nice and calm and will even CHOOSE to stay underwater - even though they could easily keep their head above water if they preferred . 

( the common consensus online suggests that snakes are happy to stay underwater for up to 30 minutes incidentally  ) 

I think the deeper water simply encourages them to take in some water as over the years when I've had to soak a snake they've looked instantly better and plumper immediately afterwards .

Well that's how one of the most experienced keepers told me to soak a snake - and it works ..

As I said some people reckon you don't need to soak at all , a spray of the tank , a moist hide or even putting them in a wet pillow case in the Viv are all other suggestions BUT I still advise a soak if there is a chance the snake is even slightly dehydrated ..


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_richardhind1972_ (08-06-2018)

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## Spoons

Left her alone today, except a brief check on that red spot on her side to make sure it isn't something more than a scuff, or getting worse. The spot is looking better, it took me a a bit to find it. Her condition broke me heart all over again. So wrinkly, even her head has wrinkles. Her belly is sunken in, forming a concave 'n' shape. Her skin feels so soft and delicate, like a geriatric person's skin. When she lays down, she's so flat, her skin kind of puddles underneath her. Her scales keep catching on my  hand, I was unsure if that was due to being dry, or so thin that her skin isn't 'tight' so to speak. Ishould have taken a quick pic but I wanted to get her back in the tank ASAP. 

Very sweet though. Crused around a bit for the 30 seconds I checked her spot, then settled back in under her hot hide. I'm wondering if I should soak her once more? Or let her be and drink of her own accord? Or maybe just mist and let the heightened humidity take care of it? I want it quiet and peaceful for her to acclimate, but I also want her to get better. I am leaving a few days this weekend so I thought I would try feeding Saturday. (The wait is going to be brutal, I want her to eat so badly!)

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*Bogertophis* (08-06-2018),_richardhind1972_ (08-07-2018)

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## Bogertophis

It's totally your call, but I'd probably give her another gentle soak...just to help ensure that she's hydrated enough to digest her upcoming meal.  Poor baby!

You might want to offer food on Friday eve...just in case she chucks it up, it won't be stinking for the several days you're gone.  Of course, she could do 
that later, but it's more likely (if at all) to happen fairly fast.  I sure hope she'll eat right off for you... :Please:

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Zincubus (08-06-2018)

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## Zincubus

> Left her alone today, except a brief check on that red spot on her side to make sure it isn't something more than a scuff, or getting worse. The spot is looking better, it took me a a bit to find it. Her condition broke me heart all over again. So wrinkly, even her head has wrinkles. Her belly is sunken in, forming a concave 'n' shape. Her skin feels so soft and delicate, like a geriatric person's skin. When she lays down, she's so flat, her skin kind of puddles underneath her. Her scales keep catching on my  hand, I was unsure if that was due to being dry, or so thin that her skin isn't 'tight' so to speak. Ishould have taken a quick pic but I wanted to get her back in the tank ASAP. 
> 
> Very sweet though. Crused around a bit for the 30 seconds I checked her spot, then settled back in under her hot hide. I'm wondering if I should soak her once more? Or let her be and drink of her own accord? Or maybe just mist and let the heightened humidity take care of it? I want it quiet and peaceful for her to acclimate, but I also want her to get better. I am leaving a few days this weekend so I thought I would try feeding Saturday. (The wait is going to be brutal, I want her to eat so badly!)
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


After that description I myself would give her another 25 minute soak BUT try the way I was told .

You really just got her damp yesterday which is no bad thing in her condition but I'd suggest the sealed container with air holes in the lid , fill it 2/3 full and let her soak .. she will soon choose to be submerged and that's when they take the water in .

Nothing to lose and if you follow the method I described a few posts back properly I can virtually guarantee she will look much better and plumper straight afterwards..

You can cover the tub with a towel to give her some security.

She will wriggle and try every corner to get out at first which is expected but it only lasts a minute or so then they relax .

Remember to stay with the tub though, don't just walk away as they're great at escaping !


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## Bogertophis

She's obviously pretty weak, I'd be careful about keeping the water shallow, unless you put a small towel in there too, something to give her traction.

No matter how badly you want her to eat & fill out, remember to only feed a small prey item...her system won't be able to handle it the way a normal 
healthy snake would.  Weekly small meals will do far more good than too much at once...a snake that is starving also does not have good digestive enzymes 
ready to go.

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## AbsoluteApril

> I'm curious to know the reason(s) they disapprove?


I've also seen that said quite a few times on this forum, something about soaking them removes the natural oils?
Maintaining proper humidity in the cage is of course ideal which would usually negate the need for a soak in the first place.

A dehydrated baby with possibly bad shed, I, personally, don't see it doing any harm but that is just my humble opinion.
 :Smile: 

OP, good luck with your little one, I hope they pull through!

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*Bogertophis* (08-06-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> I've also seen that said quite a few times on this forum, something about soaking them removes the natural oils?
> Maintaining proper humidity in the cage is of course ideal which would usually negate the need for a soak in the first place.
> 
> A dehydrated baby with possibly bad shed, I, personally, don't see it doing any harm but that is just my humble opinion.
> .....


I disagree but the debate is for another time & place...I've no wish to detract from the topic at hand.  (but "oil" doesn't dissolve in water...I'll need some very 
compelling evidence to over-ride my years of experience-)  As you implied, in a perfect world (or at least perfect husbandry) there'd be no need.   :Wink:

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_ladywhipple02_ (08-07-2018)

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## Spoons

Gave her a nice soak in Luke warm water several inches deep. I didn't trust her ability to hold her head above water so I wadded a rag into the corner, but she instead spent her time angrily slithering around looking for a way out. I watched her the entire time, I didn't see her drink, or put her head above water - but it had to have been good for her regardless. Looks like she won't be one of those pythons that likes enjoys swimming!

She gave me a good look at her scuff, which turns out to be scuffs plural. One on either side of what should be the fattest past of her. I'm pretty sure at some point she probably tried to fit somewhere too small for her to fit and got scraped. I'm not worried about it, they're looking good. 

Back in her tank til Saturday! I have a mouse fuzzy to offer her. Small, but better than nothing and better than pinkies.

(The water is clean, she's on a dark surface with a dark towel!) 

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*Bogertophis* (08-06-2018),_richardhind1972_ (08-07-2018)

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## Zincubus

How long was the soak ... if she took any water in she would have looked instantly better and plumper .. does she look any plumper or still as wrinkled ?
Did you cover the whole tub with a towel .?

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## Spoons

30 minutes. It's hard to tell if she looks plumper, honestly, given the condition she's in. I couldn't for sure tell you. I covered the entire tub except one side so I could watch her and make sure she was ok, in as dark a room as I could get and still see. 

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## Spoons

Not sure how to edit on Tapatalk so I'll add on: she's still incredibly wrinkly, but she's got both lack of food and dehydration both, so the water is only going to go so far, no?

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## Bogertophis

She needs water more than food, and first;  severe dehydration reduces her ability to digest & she might regurgitate, a bigger setback that results in even 
more loss of fluids & necessary enzymes, so it's something you want to avoid.  By feeding only pinks or fuzzies, that will help (they're easier to digest).  

But yes, of course she needs nutrition too.  If she was my snake, I'd probably tube-feed her (chicken babyfood, thinned) but she is weak & not the best 
snake for you to learn to do that with*...so best you hope she'll take small food & soon.  (*done with skill, it's not a big stress on the snake, too bad we 
aren't neighbors)

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## Spoons

Will I figured if she won't take the fuzzy, I figured I would go get a live fuzzy and offer that. I don't like feeding live mostly out of my own squeamishness and inconvenience but it's more important that she take something.

If absolutely necessary I would try force feeding, but only after I try the normal route! I will keep her water full and mist her tank to try and keep it a little more humid maybe. 

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## Bogertophis

I don't recommend force-feeding at all...and that's not the same thing as tube-feeding (though obviously, they don't "volunteer" for that either, lol).

And again, I'd try feeding her Friday night instead of Saturday if you'll be going away for a few days this weekend.  That way you'll have a good idea 
as to whether or not she keeps it down.

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## Spoons

Friday works a little better for me actually so I will try that. (And it's a day sooner, less for me to wait!)

I might have to learn something, my sick Kenyan Sandy in my other thread is refusing to eat again (stress of injections I expect) and is dropping weight real fast. Hoping she takes the pinkie left for her tonight! 

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## Slicercrush

Sad to see that the poor baby was so terribly cared for, hopefully corporate takes care of that swiftly, before any more end up like that.

Normally i'm one of the many that talks about not buying from big box stores, but I would've caved just like you if I saw one in that condition. The soaks are nice, and as said above add that neosporin. Hope everything is going well with her, her moving around a bit is hopefully an improvement, compared to your original description of how she was acting. That girl needs to rest for a good while, keep us updated if she eats. If she does, and manages to keep it down, she'll be on the right track.

Poor little noodle.

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## Bogertophis

> ...I might have to learn something, my sick Kenyan Sandy in my other thread is refusing to eat again (stress of injections I expect) and is dropping weight real fast. Hoping she takes the pinkie left for her tonight! ...


I'll be happy to give you instructions (it's really good to know anyway!) but for right now, try feeding the normal way, that's always preferable.  And many snakes 
undergoing medical care (injections or oral meds) aren't going to eat anyway...so don't be shocked...and if they do, they might toss it back up, depending on what 
the med. is- did the vet suggest you feed on schedule or wait?

Rotten luck, two snakes needing extra care at the same time...

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## Spoons

She said to feed as usual, but it's hard timing wise. Injections are every 3 days, and you don't want to feed right before, and they're also not likely to take it same day post injection. She wants to eat, she takes the pink and moves it around but won't actually eat. I wouldn't be worried about missed feedings for a Kenyan but she's lost two grams, and she only started at 10. I have read that force feeding a segment of rat tail is quick, easy (slides right down), and has a lot of protein so that is what I am considering. 

In my days rehabbing wildlife I had to tube/Gavage fed a wide variety of small fragile animals, so I'm no stranger. Just never done a snake! Usually birds and rabbits. I'm certainly leery.   

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## Sallysmom

*Sunnieskies* I got mine a month ago from Petco in Burbank and they said pinkies and pinkies only as it “cant be given anything bigger than its head”. The poor baby was so underweight is was scary to look at it at first

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*Bogertophis* (08-07-2018),_Spoons_ (08-07-2018)

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## Sallysmom

And for the OP I got my baby from Petco in a very similar condition although he seemed a little less dehydrated he hadn’t eaten in a while and was fed on pinkie mice his entire life prior. He had a lot of wrinkly saggy skin but didn’t have any scabs and had a moderate energy level.  I had a bit hightened humidity (constantly misting) for the first couple days and kept a very close eye on the temperatures. After I settled him in I made a point to not handle or bother him for 5 days to let him adjust after the move and then offered first F/T meal. I found the smallest rat pup (seemed like the most appropriate sized item for him) available at the nearby store and used the hair drier trick and he took it almost right away. I’ve been feeding him every 5 days afterwards and he’s had a wonderful appetite, shed after about two weeks and is now looking like a happy healthy snake after a month. I hope your baby recovers quickly and nicely too!

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*Bogertophis* (08-07-2018),_Spoons_ (08-07-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Sadly, many pet stores ("big box" or otherwise) often under-feed their snakes so they stay "small & cute" & don't out-grow their display tanks.  Most of their 
employees are just minimum wage workers doing as they're told; even if they know better, they might not be rewarded for "doing better by the animals".

It's a very tough call, buying from such stores:  they have no incentive to change when what they're doing keeps them in business.  It's refreshing to find pet 
stores where they truly understand snakes & do right by them, but they're in the minority.  I've only gotten a couple snakes (out of countless # over the years)
from pet stores, so I have "no room to talk" about "never" enabling bad pet stores, and you still have to do a little "homework" buying from private breeders, 
but that's usually the best option, as long as you check their references & ask questions.  Experience to know what you're looking at helps too...snakes can have 
very subtle symptoms.

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## Spoons

When I first got my first snake, a male BP, I wasn't sure what size to feed. I stood at the frozen fridge starting til an employee came and asked if I needed help. I said yes please, I am not sure what size food for a baby ball python? 

Him and his TWO co-workers came to the concensus that I needed crickets, or something cricket sized, because they "can't eat anything bigger than the distance between their eyes." 

I couldn't believe what they bad just said. I stared for a few seconds wondering if it was a joke. I don't even remember if I corrected them or not, but I often think back to it. If that's how little they know about the snakes,  never surprised to hear the stories - and now see - the snakes in horrible condition.

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*Bogertophis* (08-07-2018)

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## Bogertophis

I can remember hearing that our local Petco had told someone they could just feed a snake crickets too.   :Surprised:   I don't know if it was genuine ignorance, 
or because they had an incentive to make a sale & just told the buyer what they wanted to hear.  Many people say they object to feeding "cute little rodents" 
but there's no excuse to mislead buyers to make a sale...it's horrible for the snakes & makes me want to scream.

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## AbsoluteApril

> Him and his TWO co-workers came to the concensus that I needed crickets, or something cricket sized, because they "can't eat anything bigger than the distance between their eyes."


yeah that is (or used to be) a rule for feeding insects to lizards
those poor employees, they probably don't even realize they are giving bad information

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*Bogertophis* (08-10-2018)

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## Sunnieskys

> *Sunnieskies* I got mine a month ago from Petco in Burbank and they said pinkies and pinkies only as it cant be given anything bigger than its head. The poor baby was so underweight is was scary to look at it at first


Our protocol does not state pinkies anywhere. What a bunch of blank blanks!

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_Armiyana_ (08-07-2018),*Bogertophis* (08-07-2018)

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## Spoons

She didn't eat  :Sad:  

I thought for sure she would, because she had her head poking out of her hot hide when I got home from work for the first time since I brought her home. Of course when she saw movement she hid again. She's really shy. Room has been dark and quiet, all shades drawn, etc. Warmed the fuzzy really well and scented the tank (let it warm under the CHE for a few). Offered it... Absolutely no interest. When I moved it closer she shifted away and hid her face underneath her body. Didn't even look twice. I left it in her warm hide with her but I'm not too confident that she'll take it. 

 :Sad: 

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## Bogertophis

> She didn't eat  
> 
> I thought for sure she would, because she had her head poking out of her hot hide when I got home from work for the first time since I brought her home. Of course when she saw movement she hid again. She's really shy. Room has been dark and quiet, all shades drawn, etc. Warmed the fuzzy really well and scented the tank (let it warm under the CHE for a few). Offered it... Absolutely no interest. When I moved it closer she shifted away and hid her face underneath her body. Didn't even look twice. I left it in her warm hide with her but I'm not too confident that she'll take it. 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


Just today?  For a shy snake, it's always better to offer late night, right before you go to bed...lights out & don't peek until morning.

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## Spoons

Would it be that different of a response if it's night out? I mean, absolutely *no* interest whatsoever. In fact she seemed afraid of it. Could there be that big of a turnaround in a few hours? Happy to try again later if so, it's just been so dark in the room (cloudy too) it's almost as though it is evening already 

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## Bogertophis

> Would it be that different of a response if it's night out? I mean, absolutely *no* interest whatsoever. In fact she seemed afraid of it. Could there be that big of a turnaround in a few hours? Happy to try again later if so, it's just been so dark in the room (cloudy too) it's almost as though it is evening already 
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


You never know, it might be.  Little things can tip the balance & she needs all the help she can get from you.

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## Alter-Echo

If all else fails try live, I have a snake that went on a fast and refused to eat for over half a year till I gave in and started feeding her live... she never did go back to frozen after that.

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## Bogertophis

> If all else fails try live, I have a snake that went on a fast and refused to eat for over half a year till I gave in and started feeding her live... she never did go back to frozen after that.


I don't doubt you, but THIS snake cannot afford such a fast.

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## Zincubus

> Would it be that different of a response if it's night out? I mean, absolutely *no* interest whatsoever. In fact she seemed afraid of it. Could there be that big of a turnaround in a few hours? Happy to try again later if so, it's just been so dark in the room (cloudy too) it's almost as though it is evening already 
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


I kinda presumed that many of not most snakes are nocturnal and as such they will be programmed to come alive and eat in the evenings ...




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## Spoons

Very true. I guess maybe I'm too used to my adult, who eats like a garbage truck regardless of what I'm feeding him and when. I will try again tonight, I'm getting too overzealous  :Smile:  

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## Zincubus

Try and get a cheap hairdryer , plug it in next to the Viv.
Wait until evening Wait until it's settled under a hide .
Have the thawed mouse ready in tongs ... hot blast for 10 to 15 seconds then INSTANTLY dangle the mouse in front of the hide entrance ....they usually take it under first time  but yours may take 6 or 7 attempts  . If there is any interest shown , even a tongue flicker then that's your cue to keep trying ...


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*Bogertophis* (08-10-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> Very true. I guess maybe I'm too used to my adult, who eats like a garbage truck regardless of what I'm feeding him and when. I will try again tonight, I'm getting too overzealous  
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


This one's not a cheap date, he needs romance & candlelight... :Wink:

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## WhompingWillow

> Try and get a cheap hairdryer , plug it in next to the Viv.
> Wait until evening Wait until it's settled under a hide .
> Have the thawed mouse ready in tongs ... hot blast for 10 to 15 seconds then INSTANTLY dangle the mouse in front of the hide entrance ....they usually take it under first time  but yours may take 6 or 7 attempts  . If there is any interest shown , even a tongue flicker then that's your cue to keep trying ...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I second the hairdryer trick and what's been said about feeding at night. Also make sure it's a small enough mouse since she's so tiny. Hopefully she'll go for it.

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Zincubus (08-11-2018)

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## Sallysmom

Idk if this is a common occurrence but my guy when he was also very underweight and distressed refused to even acknowledge a pinkie mouse so I got a small rat pup and tried again and he took it within 15 seconds 
I used the hair dryer trick and tongs to dance the pup outside of his hide. And yeah I offered after the sunset

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Zincubus (08-11-2018)

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## Spoons

No luck with frozen overnight. Next step, I'll try a live fuzzy. Stubborn little snake. 

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*Bogertophis* (08-11-2018)

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## Zincubus

Still think it's too early to go to live feeding as it's gonna be tough going back ..

I'd at least try my hairdryer trick following the method carefully.


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## Spoons

I did, I picked one up yesterday and tried once it was dark. I even covered 3 sides of the tank on brown paper and turned on only the light in the adjacent room to see by. Tried 7-8 times, and then left it in the hide entryway over night 

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## Zincubus

> I did, I picked one up yesterday and tried once it was dark. I even covered 3 sides of the tank on brown paper and turned on only the light in the adjacent room to see by. Tried 7-8 times, and then left it in the hide entryway over night 
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


Ok .. as long as you'd got it in front of his nose whilst it was still warm .
My concern is that some take too long and the mouse cools so quickly .

Was he in his hide or outside incidentally??


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## Spoons

Inside. I've not yet seen her outside of it. If I lift the hide to check on her she goes into panic mode and does everything she can to hide so I didn't think it was wise to lift the hide and offer like that, she's incredibly shy. But, she was curled fairly close to the opening and thus gave me an ok view and she didn't budge an inch when I offered. 

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## Zincubus

This is a complex one given her weight .... if you're lifting the hide its possible that's it's simply not settled in yet .

If it WASA a good weight I'd leave alone totally for seven days then try the hairdryer method ....


Oh well .. good luck ..



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## Spoons

I haven't lifted it since her second soak, I've restrained myself and left her tank 100% alone except to give her water. It is a tricky situation, given her weight. I'd be so happy if she just ate one thing. 

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*Bogertophis* (08-11-2018),Zincubus (08-11-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> I did, I picked one up yesterday and tried once it was dark. I even covered 3 sides of the tank on brown paper and turned on only the light in the adjacent room to see by. Tried 7-8 times, and then left it in the hide entryway over night 
> 
> Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk


"Ungrateful snake!"   :Sad:   sorry for your struggles, I sure know what it's like...hang in there.

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Zincubus (08-11-2018)

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## WhompingWillow

It may not be conventional, but with several of our ball pythons we've had to remove the hide during feeding the first couple of times. I'm not saying this is necessarily a solution in your situation, as every snake is different, but we've had several that showed absolutely no interest in the rodent while in their hides so we took the hides away and they ate no problem. Now that everyone is eating like a champ it doesn't matter if they're in the hides or not. Most of the time they're out patrolling on feeding night anyway, lol.

It's just tricky because you don't want to overly stress her by offering too frequently, but at the same time she needs to eat.  :Sad:

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## Spoons

I think if she wasn't so damn shy I might try that. She's so timid, even one one single time I saw her poking her nose out of her hide the second she saw me she was gone, and usually she's in the back of her hide with her face hidden when I peek in there. She will get better with time, but I'm not sure taking the hide away would work for her  :Smile: 

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*Bogertophis* (08-11-2018)

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## Spoons

She ate!  :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:  :Very Happy: 

I went to the reptile store near me to get a live fuzzy. The guy who worked there was a real know it all. I was trying to explain my situation (hey, another opinion couldn't hurt) and he cut me off every 5 words to tell me what I should be doing and talked down to me like I was 10. Asked if I was sure it wasn't just stuck shed, I showed him the picture of her I posted at the beginning of the thread and he goes, "She looks fine, that's just a little stuck shed." In that condescending tone. I didn't really ever even get to finish what I was saying because he tossed two live fuzzies in a bag and said "here, drop these on top of her and leave the room. She'll eat." and I didn't really want to keep talking to him much, so I took them and left. (One went to my adult Argus, since I didn't need two). Not that this is relevant, it was just really frustrating to be talked to like that. 

I put it in the tank at night before I went to sleep.  Lights off, making as little noise as possible. I did stay for a few seconds to watch, and the little thing crawled right into her hide and crawled over her, and she didn't react. I did get up to pee an hour and a half later and peeked and the poor fuzzy was still crawling around in there. But, when I woke up, it was gone - so I have to assume in the middle of the night when she was sure it was safe and quiet she decided to eat. 

Now, if she can just keep that up, that would be great!

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*Bogertophis* (08-12-2018)

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## Zincubus

> She ate! 
> 
> I went to the reptile store near me to get a live fuzzy. The guy who worked there was a real know it all. I was trying to explain my situation (hey, another opinion couldn't hurt) and he cut me off every 5 words to tell me what I should be doing and talked down to me like I was 10. Asked if I was sure it wasn't just stuck shed, I showed him the picture of her I posted at the beginning of the thread and he goes, "She looks fine, that's just a little stuck shed." In that condescending tone. I didn't really ever even get to finish what I was saying because he tossed two live fuzzies in a bag and said "here, drop these on top of her and leave the room. She'll eat." and I didn't really want to keep talking to him much, so I took them and left. (One went to my adult Argus, since I didn't need two). Not that this is relevant, it was just really frustrating to be talked to like that. 
> 
> I put it in the tank at night before I went to sleep.  Lights off, making as little noise as possible. I did stay for a few seconds to watch, and the little thing crawled right into her hide and crawled over her, and she didn't react. I did get up to pee an hour and a half later and peeked and the poor fuzzy was still crawling around in there. But, when I woke up, it was gone - so I have to assume in the middle of the night when she was sure it was safe and quiet she decided to eat. 
> 
> Now, if she can just keep that up, that would be great!


After a day or so I'd check in ever nook and cranny in the viv and under the substrate .. if you didn't actually see him eat it ..
Especially if you notice a pungent smell ...


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*Bogertophis* (08-12-2018)

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## Spoons

This is a good idea - I did do a peek under each hide, and didn't see it, and the substrate isn't thick enough for burrowing. It's a 10 gallon, few places to hide. That said, I didn't pick her up or look too hard under the hot hide because I didn't want to stress her out, so there's that small chance it might be under her or scuffled in with the aspen. I will definitely keep an eye out, I don't need a mouse going bad in there!

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## Bogertophis

I usually listen for the "squeak"...for all you know, it might be curled up with the snake, as the warmth feels like it's mom.  I would check.

Also, I disagree with the "know-it-all" guy...I wouldn't drop them on top of a shy snake.  One thing you might try with a live fuzzy is:  put a tip-proof 
heavy bowl in the cage (flat bottom & at least 2" deep) and leave the fuzzy in the bowl.  It will crawl around but not escape.  Your hungry snake should 
likely follow the scent & not be put off by a clueless mouse that seems to approach it.  Snakes instinctively feel braver when they have the "upper hand" 
and can look down upon prey wiggling past them...like from a ledge, only this "ledge" will be the edge of your bowl.  The added bonus is that the mouse 
will be easy to find & you'll know the answer without a cage search.   

Another thing you could do is to set up exactly as above ***while the snake is IN the hide***- putting the bowl w/ fuzzy near the hide opening so you can 
put an empty cardboard box over both the bowl & the hide w/ snake...this will help the mouse scent waft into the hide, and give more privacy overnight. 
It's an easy check to just lift the box next morning to see in the fuzzy is still in the bowl or not, without invading your snake's actual hide.  

I have used the fuzzy-in-a-bowl trick before with success, & I hope it works for you.  (some pet stores do their own "version" by putting both snake and 
live prey in a paper bag & closing the top overnight...but that won't work for all snakes, especially since you have to handle the snake first to do it, and 
it's a little too close for comfort for some of them...it's similar to the guy dropping mice "on" the snake...either one is too much like the prey approaching 
the snake, instead of the other way around, and as happens in nature.)

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## Spoons

Ooh, good idea! I bet if it was the dead of night she would come out looking for it. I thought maybe she'd want to eat in her hide. And no, I certainly didn't drop it on her! I just smiled and nodded and thanked the guy for his advice since people like that don't take well to being told they might be wrong about stuff, especially since he seemed to have already made up his mind about me being clueless. I suppose there's no chance she wouldn't find it, too. I need to go find a few crocks as it is, since their water dishes evaporate too fast for my liking (both hers and the sand boa's). Trip to wal mart is in order.

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## Bogertophis

I've been around this block a few times, can you tell?   :ROFL:

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## Armiyana

> (some pet stores do their own "version" by putting both snake and 
> live prey in a paper bag & closing the top overnight...but that won't work for all snakes, especially since you have to handle the snake first to do it, and 
> it's a little too close for comfort for some of them...it's similar to the guy dropping mice "on" the snake...either one is too much like the prey approaching 
> the snake, instead of the other way around, and as happens in nature.)


The only time I ever have this trick work is with flighty colubrid babies. I'll take one of those clear betta cups with the quarter sized holes in the lid, put a pinky in there with the little guy and let them slip back out through the lid when they're done. 

The only reason it works is sometimes these little guys just get so worked up they hide everywhere when you try to show them the pinky. Once they have a minute to refocus they grab it and go no problems. 

Ball pythons almost never act this way for me. So tricks like that aren't very likely to work.

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## Bogertophis

> The only time I ever have this trick work is with flighty colubrid babies. I'll take one of those clear betta cups with the quarter sized holes in the lid, put a pinky in there with the little guy and let them slip back out through the lid when they're done. 
> 
> The only reason it works is sometimes these little guys just get so worked up they hide everywhere when you try to show them the pinky. Once they have a minute to refocus they grab it and go no problems. 
> 
> Ball pythons almost never act this way for me. So tricks like that aren't very likely to work.


Yes, I agree...the bag or deli cup can work pretty well (also with f/t pinks) for the small flighty type snakes.  The idea is similar but not the same as what I suggested 
for the ball python: the "bowl ambush" does work for them.  Either way, you're helping the snake to focus while feeling secure enough to take food.

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_Armiyana_ (08-12-2018)

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## Zincubus

Every nervous 'fussy' Royal I've encountered over the years would ONLY ever strike from within their hides and even then the food had to be real warm and took numerous attempts .


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## Armiyana

I'm gonna have to keep the bowl trick in mind. Cause yeah, that would fit more with the ball python kind of mentality. I have a fussy girl that like to perch on top of her hide too so that might do well for her. 

Like you said, dropping the mouse on them freaks them out quite a bit. The colubrids do a bit easier with that and realize food before the panic.

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## Bogertophis

> I'm gonna have to keep the bowl trick in mind. Cause yeah, that would fit more with the ball python kind of mentality. I have a fussy girl that like to perch on top of her hide too so that might do well for her....


I had a hatchling BP that had to perch on top of driftwood to pounce on a fuzzy crawling below it for the first feed.  And I've used the bowl-trick for various snakes that 
need to see some motion but also need to approach & watch it for a while from a "safe distance" first, without the clueless mouse walking right up to the snake & freaking 
it out, & without the mouse crawling off to hide somewhere in the substrate.  So yes, this is just another trick to keep in mind for any snake that may need "assertiveness
training".   :Wink:   It's also a good way to keep the snake from getting a mouth-full of substrate when they're still learning...I've had them do that & then they don't want the 
mouse, lol.

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_Armiyana_ (08-12-2018)

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## Spoons

Update  :Smile: 

She is doing well! She came to me at 50 grams, and is now 68. She weighed 61 when the pet store got her in. (Of course she's grown longer and this is still skinny). 

She has eaten two good meals of a mouse fuzzy with me, and had one good (if small) poop. This tells me get gut is working like it should be. I offered the last fuzzy like I did the first time since it was tried and true, and put it in at night and shut lights off and went to bed. Gone in the morning. 

Today is the first day I've taken her out really since her initial getting settled. She balled up, but after a couple minutes actually uncurled to do a little exploring. Not the panicked 'I need to hide' exploring either! I didn't keep her out long. I just wanted an updated weight and some updated pics, and she's back in her tank. 

Here are some pics. She is obviously still underweight by quite a bit. I tried to get a few pics that show the wrinkles on her neck and head. Her whole spine is still visible. But, there is slow improvement. I think we are on the right track.  :Smile:  

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_Armiyana_ (08-17-2018),*Bogertophis* (08-17-2018),_richardhind1972_ (08-18-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Poor crinkly snake...but heading in the right direction at least.   :Good Job:   She's so lucky to have a patient owner who cares about her.

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## Jakethesnake69

Sounds like good things are happening. Your doing a fantastic job and that is one lucky snake. Weight gain is a positive for sure.  Look forward to more good news in the future.  :Good Job:

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## Zincubus

I'd just leave her alone ... given she just ate a few days ago and that she's so underweight/ dehydrated?  / having  injections every three days ? ...

I just don't think you're helping at all by disturbing/ handling and weighing ..


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## Spoons

> I'd just leave her alone ... given she just ate a few days ago and that she's so underweight/ dehydrated?  / having  injections every three days ? ...
> 
> I just don't think you're helping at all by disturbing/ handling and weighing ..
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, the injections are for my sand boa. I've left her (the BP) untouched pretty much since her last soak. Given that my sand boa baby showed her RI within two weeks of bringing her home, I figure it us prudent to take five minutes and give her a once over to make sure she isn't following suit - and a quick weigh and a few pics while I'm at it. Don't want to go through the effort only to find her dead of something I could have caught if I just looked once a week. 

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Zincubus (08-17-2018)

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## Spoons

Okay, i apologise this is dumb but I'm excited for it and not many people I know in real life care to hear. But she struck at her mouse immediately yesterday! Third feeding, I set the live fuzzy in there per usual around 7pm. This time she whipped around and struck immediately, instead of her usual of waiting til God knows whenever she decided it was dafe to eat! 

Baby steps in the right direction  :Very Happy:  

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_Armiyana_ (08-22-2018),*Bogertophis* (08-22-2018)

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## Jakethesnake69

Thats cool, my two snakes eat immediately. And strike very quickly as yours has. Im assuming its as good a sign of getting/being healthy as any.  :Good Job:

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_Spoons_ (08-22-2018)

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## giltyler

Good Job tackling a suffering animal.

Sounds like the recovery is on the right track for this little baby now that she is eating regularly.

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_Spoons_ (08-31-2018)

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## Spoons

The once-weekly once over and weight check today. She still looks good, sounds good, and is gaining weight. Her last meal was a frozen/thaw - the pet store sent me home with an adult mouse for some reason (In a box so I didn't notice til I was home) so I thawed one out to try, warmed it with a hair dryer and she took it! I think she's figuring out she likes food, and is hungry. That morning she had her little nose poking out of her hut like she was waiting for food. 

She's looking much better. Back in her tank to relax til she eats tomorrow. 

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*Bogertophis* (08-31-2018)

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## Bogertophis

She still looks SO crinkly...it feels like forever to get weight on a snake like this but that's a very good sign (wanting food & taking f/t).   :Good Job:

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## WhompingWillow

You might just be waiting to see if her next shed goes ok, but if not, you may want to consider helping her with that stuck shed. A few runs though a warm, damp towel. Letting her go in a pillow case with a wet towel inside. A good soak. Shed-Ease also works wonders. Best of luck. Good to hear she's gaining weight and taking F/T.  :Smile:

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*Bogertophis* (08-31-2018)

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## Bogertophis

I'd be soaking her too (etc.) as suggested by WhompingWillow.  Does she have a really moist humid hide with moss?

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## Spoons

No humid hide, but every other day I've been misting to getting humidity up. Once she started eating I stopped bothering her as much as possible because she's so scared and shy I don't want her to regurgitate. I figured once I saw her go blue I would stop feeding (none of my other ones will eat when they are in shed anyways) and start soaking every other day to make sure it's a good shed. It's been hovering around 50% the days I don't mist. 

Could someone point out where the stuck shed is? I see a little on her head but she's so insanely headshy I haven't tried doing anything about it. Her skin is loose and because of her weight, her scales almost seem loose (they stick out like snake bedhead) instead of sleek against her body and they tend to catch on everything when I have her out, and her skin is so soft and delicate it folds up on itself. Could that be causing the appearance of stuck shed? Or am I just that bad at spotting it? I thought I got most of it when I brought her home but I may not have! I thought a good shed would help the condition her skin is in. 

I could add a humid hide but I almost guarantee she wouldn't use it. She hasn't left her hot hide since she was put in the tank - not to eat, poop, nothing save for to drink, which is right outside the door. All the bedding in the rest of the tank is still fluffy and not tamped down like it is where she's crawled over. I believe at the moment she values heat and security over everything else.

I wish you guys could feel her skin. It's hard to describe. Tissue paper soft, loose, I'm actually scared to pick her up, it feels like it'll tear of it's pulled. She is drinking and humidity is good. Her crinkliness has gone down quite a bit as she's put weight on and doesn't have so much extra skin. I'm actually kind of excited for her to shed, I think it will be a big difference. Before she was like 60% baggy skin, 40% snake. It's closer to 40/60 now I think : )

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## WhompingWillow

From the photos you posted, it honestly looks like the entire top half of her body is all stuck shed with the exception of about a centimeter below her head. If you look at her belly and compare it to her top half, you should be able to see the line of stuck shed. That's why she looks so crinkly. To make a humid hide, you could just add damp moss to her existing hot hide. I just worry that with existing stuck shed to that degree, her next shed isn't going to be that great and it will just compound the problem. I'm going to post a few photos in a second of Norm when we first got him so you can see what his stuck shed looked like.

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## Spoons

That would be awesome. When I brought her home, she did have big flakes of shed all down her back that came off during the first soak. Is it possible for shed to peel off in layers? Like, the outer layer of shed peeled off but there's still a layer on there? 

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## WhompingWillow

Here's Norm. The first two are with stuck shed, the third is after 30 minutes going through a damp towel.

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## WhompingWillow

I circled the parts that jump out to me and make me think it's stuck shed, other than her overall crispiness.  :Smile: 

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## Bogertophis

Her skin MIGHT actually tear if you handle her with any force...snakes that are chronically-starved have very weak skin because they didn't have the nutrition 
to make & maintain their skin, so do handle her very gently.  I once rescued a starved adult boa (a beautiful Argentine of all things!) whose skin tore in multiple 
places when the owners removed her from their cage to bag her & drop her off to me.  (I had wanted to be the one to handle her removal but they jumped the 
gun, not knowing my reason for wanting to do that myself.   I had made a house-call in response to their call for help & planned to return the next day, when 
I had a cage set up for her to move into, and food with me to tempt her off her branches with...but they didn't wait OR listen.   :Sad:   The skin on that boa would 
never be normal, and the same may be true of this BP, I'm sorry to say.  

Her skin is super-thin...it appears the shed came off the back-top of her head, but that she retained the rest, at least as far as I can see.  I think she'd be better 
off with a warm AND humid hide, because misting doesn't hang around long enough to actually help much.do agree with you that she needs "peace & quiet".
Water & food are critical for her...and you may be right that this isn't stuck shed, but that's how it looks in photos, you're in a better position to tell than we are 
online.  (so refresh my memory, you actually got pieces of shed OFF her when you first got her home?)

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_Armiyana_ (09-01-2018),_richardhind1972_ (09-01-2018)

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## Spoons

Well, hopefully with good nutrition and care she can improve, at least. I'm hoping she's young enough that she tissue paper skin won't last but if it does so be it, I will just learn to be more careful with her. 

I will try and add some humidity to the warm hide! I can cover more of the lid to keep humidy in as well, right now a piece of foil covers the warm 1/3 of the lid. 

Yes, I got quite a few decent sized flakes off of her back when I brought her home, and a huge chunk that came off on her neck. They were half peeled off, I used a warm rag to wipe them off, which is a big part of my waffling on the subject. I don't mean to be argumentative about stuck shed vs. emaciation, especially since most people on this forum are more experienced than I am, I just genuinely don't know much about it in terms of recognition or if maybe it still could be stuck shed even though I removed quite a bit when I got her home, or if she could still have a layer stuck on. I've never dealt with it so you all know more than I do! My adult has always shed well, and my Kenyan's only shed with me was complete. 

I will err on the side of caution and treat it like it is. No reason not to, and it won't hurt anything. I'll ramp up the humidity overall - she's got to be getting ready for a shed soon either way. I'll give her a soak and run her in a pillow case of damp towels, and take some 'after' pics.  :Smile: 

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## Spoons

> I circled the parts that jump out to me and make me think it's stuck shed, other than her overall crispiness. 
> 
> Sent from my Vivo X using Tapatalk


Thank you! The pics actually help quite a bit. When I am home tomorrow I will see if I can try a soak/damp towels and take some  more pics and see how she does. You're right, your before pic does look a lot like my little girl does. 

I'll wait til tomorrow evening so she can chill a bit after being out today, and while she's doing that I can add some humidity to her tank overall. 

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## Coluber42

> I could add a humid hide but I almost guarantee she wouldn't use it. She hasn't left her hot hide since she was put in the tank - not to eat, poop, nothing save for to drink, which is right outside the door. All the bedding in the rest of the tank is still fluffy and not tamped down like it is where she's crawled over. I believe at the moment she values heat and security over everything else.


Next time she's out, you could try making her warm hide into a humid hide by adding some damp moss, then put her back into it. Or add a bunch of damp moss (or even just damp paper towels) in dishes of a bit of water around the tank to get the humidity up. It really does look like she's still got stuck shed from head to toe, and may still be dehydrated. Soaking won't do a whole lot for dehydration, but humidity will. Keep in mind that if the ambient humidity in her cage is 50%, it's lower than that in her hot hide just because the air is warmer so the same amount of moisture results in a lower % humidity. If you can without making everything damp, aim for a much higher than normal level of humidity, from now until her next shed at least. Animals lose moisture just by exhaling, but breathing more humid air can help that.

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*Bogertophis* (08-31-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Re "warm AND humid hide"-  My little Aussie spotted python has such a thing- it's a large rectangular plastic food container that's about 8.5" x 12.5" long 
and about 3.5" deep.  I use similar humid hides for my corn snakes, but they like cooler temps so their humid-hides aren't heated, whereas my spotted 
python loves the warmth, so her humid hide and also a regular hide are both over her UTH-  her humid hide currently has damp orchid bark, but mostly 
soaked sphaghum moss is best for this & what my corns have in theirs.  (I switch things up now & then depending on what I have on hand.)  My spotted 
python uses her humid hide the most of all her hides (she has a cool one too) and it's essential for her to shed well...apparently these are a coastal species, 
not desert.  Anyway, I suspect your little BP would love to snuggle into damp moss with warmth... :Snake:   and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for his recovery.

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## Armiyana

I'm so glad the little one is eating for you! That's a step in the right direction for sure.

And it can be so difficult to tell whats going on with little ones that are so emaciated. The delicate 'paper' skin is still a concern for sure! And sometimes they just lose that healthy look and can appear dried and dehydrated like this.

If she can tolerate a nice warm soak while you set up some more humid places in her tank, I would do that with a little gentle towel time after. Just to make sure. Don't apply too much pressure.  Just let the baby work thier way out of the damp towel after the soak. 

If you get a bit more dried skin off, awesome! But if not, just let the humid hides help keep that skin moist and hopefully the better meals will help the skin toughen up enough underneath for a good shed.
Don't pick or pull at any suspicious bits because if it is just that dull, dry nutrition starved skin, you could end up with a nasty tear. I've seen that happen firsthand when someone tried to assist feed a baby that looked like yours.

Baby steps and patience! I hope that things improve for you soon tho!

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*Bogertophis* (09-01-2018)

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## Spoons

Ok, so I gave her another soak. I'm not sure how much it helped, I didn't see anything come off but it may have come off in teeny pieces I suppose. I let her soak a half hour then slither through some damp washcloths for a while. She is still awful wrinkly (see pic).

I did notice after soaking - not before - she now has a fluid pouch under her skin. Doesn't seem to bother her. I can poke it amd swish the fluid around. Her last third of her body also seems softer amd swollen/squishy down to her vent. but that could be sausage butt too. I know soaking can make them poop. You can see the fluid pocket in the pic that is of her back on the left side- water getting between layers of shed? Under skin? Not sure there. 

She seems more curious and less panicked this time. Stronger, too, she's able to hold her body horizontally. I'll take it. I will leave her a few days before feeding since I'm sure it was pretty stressful for her still. Regardless she will be kept in decent humidity at least until she sheds once with me. 

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## Coluber42

> I did notice after soaking - not before - she now has a fluid pouch under her skin. Doesn't seem to bother her. I can poke it amd swish the fluid around. Her last third of her body also seems softer amd swollen/squishy down to her vent. but that could be sausage butt too. I know soaking can make them poop. You can see the fluid pocket in the pic that is of her back on the left side- water getting between layers of shed? Under skin? Not sure there. \


That sounds like maybe she should see a vet - it doesn't sound like just water getting under some stuck shed. Bathing sometimes makes them poop or pee because dumping the ballast or deterring predators is a flight response, not because it makes them suddenly produce urates or feces that weren't already there.

Glad to hear she seems stronger though.

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*Bogertophis* (09-04-2018)

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## Spoons

Yeah, it's definitely on the table. I'm going to take a look tomorrow after work, and if needed I'll make an appt. My vet is pretty awesome, she saw my sick KSB. I still have good hope she will do well  :Smile:  

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## Bogertophis

That "fluid pouch" is bizarre & perplexing.   :Confused:   I hope your vet has some ideas.  

From her appearance, recovery is going to be rather slow for this sweet snake...I'm so glad she has you on her side.

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## Spoons

Vet visit today! She was a champ. Vet said it could be a lot of things - from just skin pulling away from the lower tissue, to infection, to virus, to liver failure. He said we *could* do a blood test but because of her size it would have to be a cardiac stick, which is risky, and nothing diagnosable via blood test is treatable so we would be testing just for the knowledge. He said the only thing of all the possibilities that is really treatable is a bacterial infection/ sepsis so he recommended we be safe and start her on the same antibiotics my sand boa was on. I agreed with him, no sense in testing if it's not something we could treat, so she's on a month of antibiotics injections. He did point out a bit of a red mark on her side and said it could be a scuff, the start of shed cycle (she's about due) or it could he what he called sepsis blush (a sign of sepsis, though she's acting and eating like normal), so better to treat just on case.

He gave her subcutaneous fluids, too, which I think was really good for her. It'll be a bit of a pill managing her injections and her shyness with food but I think we can manage. I will give her three days to rest, give her next injection in the  and see if she will eat PM that same day to give her tbe next full two to digest before injecting again.

Doc gives a prognosis of "guarded" but I think she will be ok.  :Smile:  Time to pick up some OT at work to make up the cost of vet bills! She is definitely worth it! 

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*Bogertophis* (09-06-2018),_Coluber42_ (09-06-2018)

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## Bogertophis

We're all pulling for her!  I hope it's none of the "worst-case" scenarios, but only time will tell.  She's in no shape to draw blood from, the decision you both 
arrived at makes total sense to me.  Lucky you, more practice with injections... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   You're truly her guardian angel... :Good Job:

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## Coluber42

Good luck, I hope you'll keep posting updates!

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## Jnksnakes

Wow that poor baby looks awful. I rescued an Amazon Tree Boa a few days ago. It's in such bad shape I have soaked it twice, yesterday for 30 mins and today for 3 hours. Most of it's shed is STILL stuck. When I get off work this morning I'm going to have to pin it and pull it off (after another soak so it is wet ofc). I completely understand people not liking snakes and all, but why get one and mistreat it?

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## Spoons

I know, I felt guilty even taking her out at the vet even though it isn't my fault. I told him 'if you'll believe it she used to look worse. I swear this is an improvement.'  his expression when he was examining her said it all. 

I hope your Amazon does well! That is one of my wants. I *love* Amazon tree boas, I just don't think I'm experienced enough to get one yet with their temperament known to be a bit aggressive. 



> Wow that poor baby looks awful. I rescued an Amazon Tree Boa a few days ago. It's in such bad shape I have soaked it twice, yesterday for 30 mins and today for 3 hours. Most of it's shed is STILL stuck. When I get off work this morning I'm going to have to pin it and pull it off (after another soak so it is wet ofc). I completely understand people not liking snakes and all, but why get one and mistreat it?


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## Spoons

She shed! All in one piece, too! She went blue about four days after I started keeping the ambient humidity at 60-70. This morning I woke up to a shiny snake and a long shed. She looks a TON better post-shed, her skin is all smooth now too (and she's hungry!) 

I took her out for her injection this morning and found she does have a little wound. Her skin is so fragile I'm sure it's from rubbing to get the shed off. She is still on antibiotics so I'm not too concerned about infection but what should I put on it? She's due for a vet check real soon too, so she'll get seen there again. (Pic attached).

Here's some pics of the fresh Snek, who has been named Hera (to match my adult male, Argus. Had to follow the Greek trend!) Pardon her sausage butt. I figured she'd poop when she shed but I was wrong! 



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*Bogertophis* (09-30-2018),_richardhind1972_ (09-30-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Awesome!!!  You can use Neosporin ointment (sold for humans in every drug store & Walmart, etc. by the band-aids) on the wound, ONLY the kind 
WITHOUT "pain relief" is good for snakes. Or you could wipe it with Betadine, if you have that on hand.  Or Silvadene cream if you have it (it's Rx).

She is really improving, she looks SO much better, THANKS TO YOU  :Very Happy:  & I bet she feels better too.   :Good Job:

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_richardhind1972_ (09-30-2018),_Spoons_ (10-02-2018)

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## Spoons

She has turned into such a rockstar eater, for one that was labeled a 'problem eater.' shocker, give a snake what it properly needs to live and they thrive. Who would have thought? Someone should let the pet stores know, they must not have been told yet (/sarcasm).

Switched to F/T with no issues whatsoever, strikes immediately. She now comes out of her hide and creeps around, coiling back  looking for her food when she smells me heating it with a hair dryer. I can't wait until she's done with injections and I can bump her food size (keeping them small but more frequent for less chance of regurge since meds are every 3 days). Gaining confidence, eats like a champ, looking good after her shed. 

I'm *so happy* with her progress!  Such a turnaround from the half dead little noodle she was not that long ago. Fingers crossed for her next vet check, I hope the vet has the same thoughts I do! 

And of course you all have been amazing and helpful for this newbie who was a bit out of her element, having only raised a happy healthy snake. With three animals  (two snakes and a little stray kitten) at my house currently being cared for under the eye of my vet they're getting to know me pretty well! (Wonder what the odds are they'll let me bring all three in for their rechecks at the same time, hmm...) My bleeding heart just can't say no to the animals that need help. 

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*Bogertophis* (10-02-2018),_richardhind1972_ (10-03-2018)

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## Bogertophis

You're doing such an awesome job with her...I'm so delighted to hear such a wonderful update on this snake.  Are there more beautiful & perfect snakes 
around to keep as pets?  Sure...but personally, MY heart goes out to those that need some help or even just a home...the over-looked ones can be more 
work, but can also be so much more rewarding in the long run.   :Good Job:

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## Spoons

So, just a lil update!

She is off her antibiotics. She is doing *wonderfully* - she's an active, curious little snake with an incredible appetite. She's been steadily gaining weight, she is eating hoppers. Still a little thin but a HUGE improvement. She crawls around at night, hangs out with her head peeking out her hidey huts to watch what's going on. A little hand shy (understandably) still. She has just hit the 100 gram mark - she was 52 grams when I brought her home. 

However. She is still getting big fluid pockets under her skin. They do not seem to bother her unless I poke at them, which I try to not do. I brought her back to the vet two weeks post-antibiotics because the pockets were larger than I've seen them. They drew the fluid off and sent it for a fluid analysis, and said that she's looking really good, and that they have no idea what it could be. They looked at the fluid under a microscope and said there really wasn't anything to see - there was like one white blood cell, a bacteria cell that was likely cross contamination from the skin. Fluid analysis showed not much - a couple cells here and there, but no infection (that they could see), no inflammation, no bacteria. A bacterial culture of the fluid would be useless since there's no bacteria to culture. 

In short, they're baffled. I did post in a group on Facebook, and it was brought up that there's a possibility of organ damage which can cause fluid buildup in humans, so possibly something similar in snakes. A few people said they had similar pockets on their emaciated rescue BP - a few said they spontaneously recovered, and one said their snake passed. The vet said we can do more testing, but I opted to just watch and see, and the vet agreed that because she is, for all intents and purposes, a healthy snake otherwise, that is a valid way to go and to just keep an eye on her and jump on it if she starts to look sick or go downhill. If the fluid pockets get too big, I have the ok to draw the fluid off of her - I have not done so since the very first time to check for blood, because I am hoping the body will reabsorb it on its own. I don't want her getting dehydrated, and the less needle pokes the better, imo.

So! That's where we are at with her. Here's a few pictures - the red arrow points to the start of one of the fluid pockets. the last pic is her post-vet just an overall pic of how she is looking! She's a little fighter and I am still pulling for her. If anybody has any insight on the fluid, I'd love to hear it.  :Smile: 

Posting pics in the following post for ease of doing - For some reason on the computer the pics preview HUGE. I'll add them in a sec via Tapatalk.

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*Bogertophis* (12-05-2018)

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## Spoons

Here's the pics  :Smile: 


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*Bogertophis* (11-10-2018),_hilabeans_ (11-10-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Wow, you're doing such a great job with her...she is so lucky to have you!  She is precious, by the way.   :Good Job: 

I hope she outgrows the fluid pockets...that is a concern, but if she does I'd imagine it will be very gradual.  I'd agree that it's probably some renal damage from 
her starvation, but no idea what the prognosis would be, whether or not it can improve?  I hope so.  I would do just as you're doing, not draw off the fluid & hope 
it can be reabsorbed for now.

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## Spoons

This snake I swear to god. She shed last night. Plus side, all in one piece. Down side, her skin is still so fragile it ripped open. Not down through to the muscle but got her good. Daily betadine soaks, quarantine tub, dabbed on a tiny bit of antibiotic ointment because I don't have anything else atm to put on it. I'll call my vet tomorrow and send a pic and see if he thinks, given her history, she should get antibiotics. 

Another plus side, she's doing amazingly otherwise - filling out nicely. Holding her almost feels like holding a normal snake in her back half where she's mostly filled in, and the skin back there feels more normal. I think once she's a solid weight and those damn fluid pockets stop (they are improving) her skin should get better. 

I didn't even suspect anything until I came home from work and found her nonchalantly hanging out outside her hide, covered in blood, but her new curious self otherwise. Goon. Crawled into my hand when I reached in to explore like nothing was happening.

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*Bogertophis* (12-05-2018)

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## FollowTheSun

Poor baby! She's lucky to have you! 
I was thinking about the fluid pockets-- coming in late here so maybe it's been mentioned-- but in humans fluid "second spacing" like that is often a protein deficiency. And the fragile skin would also be caused by protein deficiency/malnutrition. I hope she continues to recover. Maybe she needs to be wrapped in bubble wrap until she's all better.  :Wink:

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_Ashley96_ (12-19-2018),*Bogertophis* (12-05-2018),_Spoons_ (12-14-2018)

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## Bogertophis

From what I know of severe malnutrition in snakes, once their skin is damaged to where it becomes abnormally thin & tears easily, it does not get back to 
normal [thickness], I'm sad to say.  What a horrible shock to come home to, this snake all bloody!   :Surprised:    Some years back I took in an adult unwanted and
chronically-starved boa with numerous skin tears like this...Silvadene cream was helpful to heal them over, but the fragility of her skin did not change.   :Sad: 
She never had pockets of fluid under her skin like this one does.

I don't know "the rest of her story" because about 6 mos. later I decided to move out of state, so she was placed with someone in the Herp society that 
understood & accepted her issues.  She ate good for me, she regained her weight & all her torn skin was healed over, but she remained very fragile I'm sure.

I like the "bubble-wrap" idea!  I think FollowtheSun is onto something... :Wink:   Spoons: I'm so sorry for this set-back...and so incongruent for her to act as if 
nothing was wrong?  Silly snek!

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## FollowTheSun

> Poor baby! She's lucky to have you! 
> I was thinking about the fluid pockets-- coming in late here so maybe it's been mentioned-- but in humans fluid "second spacing" like that is often a protein deficiency. And the fragile skin would also be caused by protein deficiency/malnutrition. I hope she continues to recover. Maybe she needs to be wrapped in bubble wrap until she's all better.


Re-reading this-- I meant *third* spacing! I need to go back to nursing school apparently! I was typing that while trying to pay politely pay attention to our friend's daughter giving us a CutCo sales pitch.  :Blahblah:

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## FollowTheSun

> From what I know of severe malnutrition in snakes, once their skin is damaged to where it becomes abnormally thin & tears easily, it does not get back to 
> normal [thickness], I'm sad to say.  What a horrible shock to come home to, this snake all bloody!     Some years back I took in an adult unwanted and
> chronically-starved boa with numerous skin tears like this...Silvadene cream was helpful to heal them over, but the fragility of her skin did not change.  
> She never had pockets of fluid under her skin like this one does.
> 
> I don't know "the rest of her story" because about 6 mos. later I decided to move out of state, so she was placed with someone in the Herp society that 
> understood & accepted her issues.  She ate good for me, she regained her weight & all her torn skin was healed over, but she remained very fragile I'm sure.
> 
> I like the "bubble-wrap" idea!  I think FollowtheSun is onto something...  Spoons: I'm so sorry for this set-back...and so incongruent for her to act as if 
> nothing was wrong?  Silly snek!


That's too bad that it may not ever get stronger skin again. :-( I do wonder if a soft padded environment might be safer,but then what would it rub on on for sheds?

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## Armiyana

Awww... poor baby. I was worried something like that would happen. I've seen it happen before as well.

Sadly the little one I was caring for basically peeled her skin off like yours right behind her head and it just got worse, so we had to put her down. The tissue was just too fragile to properly suture.

I'm hoping that maybe the area that your baby peeled in will be a bit easier to work with, but this may just end up being a quality of life concern. ;n;

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*Bogertophis* (12-06-2018),_FollowTheSun_ (12-06-2018)

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## Spoons

I am hopeful! I actually came across an article about vitamin C deficiencies in severely malnourished snakes causing skin fragility, blistering, and spontaneous rupture with routine skin stretching - like shedding and feeding. It seems pretty extremely likely to be what she is suffering from. 

It also sounds like if that's the case, it IS treatable, and should go back to normal. A large part of her skin already feels like it is back to normal snake skin. 

I figure I will bring her in to my vet once more. That small spot is healing up, but there's roughly two inches of skin on one side that seems to have also torn free, but not come loose of her body, so it's a tough hard scab like area. I expect it will work it's way free. I have been doing gentle betadine washes at night, no soaks because I want that scab of skin to stay on longer, and dabbing on a little antibiotic cream. 

Sounds like vitamin C supplementation is gbe key to getting the skin in good shape. It looks like there is a few ways you can do that, from injecting the prey item to injecting tbe actual snake with calcium supplement. I am hoping I can get some snake injection or water additive so she gets daily calcium. 

Otherwise she's doing well! It honestly doesn't seem to hurt her too bad. She doesn't jerk when I clean or prod at it. She ate just fine the other day. She is still her curious self. I've seen snakes with much nastier burns come out the other side ok so I'm confident she will pull through as well  :Smile: 

I am thinking I will maybe start a separate thread just for the vitamin C issue, since it seems uncommon enough that it might he useful to be finable for future snake owners. But, I will prob wait til a vet can confirm! 

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*Bogertophis* (12-14-2018)

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## Spoons

RE quality of life: if it gets to that point, I will not make her suffer. However, if she is still doing well, and my vet thinks she is doing well, I will go ahead with treatment. So far she is being a rockstar, and I am hoping it stays that way - but I am not afraid of ending it if she seems to be suffering. 

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_Armiyana_ (12-15-2018),*Bogertophis* (12-14-2018)

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## Bogertophis

Hey, that's really interesting....yes, please DO start a thread about the Vitamin C thing, that's news to me & it's needs to be highlighted...and please do include the 
source article too.  I'm really glad to hear she's doing well, what a trooper she is!  -but with you to thank for being her guardian angel.  I think she had no chance 
if you hadn't taken her home.  Anyway, that would be especially awesome if extra nutrients turn out to be the answer to saving & improving her skin.  Back when 
I took in a boa with similar skin tears, I treated her topically and used reptile vits/mins. on her food "in case" but I don't know the whole "rest of the story" because 
I moved out of state & re-homed her before doing so (-after I had her for about 6 mos.).  And even if nutrition makes all the difference, it's still slow-going for a full 
recuperation.   :Good Job:

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## tickyyy

I know this post is old but I want to know how Hera is doing. I'm so worried for her. That poor thing. I recently went to the pet store and was heartbroken when I saw how thin their bp was. You're a good person for putting in the time and effort to save this snake.

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*Bogertophis* (01-10-2019)

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## Spoons

> I know this post is old but I want to know how Hera is doing. I'm so worried for her. That poor thing. I recently went to the pet store and was heartbroken when I saw how thin their bp was. You're a good person for putting in the time and effort to save this snake.


I'm sorry, I didn't see this earlier! It's been a little bit since I've logged in. 

Hera is good! We had a major, major setback during her last shed. My intent was to house her in a tub with nothing but damp towel in it for her to shed on once she cleared up from blue, because her skin is so fragile she injures herself rubbing on the harder things in her tank. With my adult, as well as with her first shed and second, she would clear from blue and shed 2ish days later. This time, she shed the day after she cleared up, before I moved her. It was a nasty shed, and the area that she had previously tore down to just a thin layer and had been healing tore clean through to the muscle as she rubbed the scabbing off - a patch about as big as the last segment of one of my fingers. This was the first time I really truly sat down and asked myself if I was keeping her alive selfishly, and if she had a poor quality of life. I struggled with it for several days. 

But, I figured, let's see where it goes and take it one day at a time. I have seen snakes on here with full length nasty body burns that come through nicely, so I wanted to give it a shot. Treated with just ointment and once it scabbed over dilute betadine. It has healed over wonderfully (and very quickly) and there's new white skin over the wound. She has not for a single day looked like she was going downhill behavior wise. She's still a very curious little snake, and has a voracious appetite that almost puts my adult garbage disposal to shame. due to the wound and tightness of healing skin she has been getting two fuzzies instead of a small mouse, and she ALWAYS wolfs the first one down in minutes and waits in S-pose for the second one. She's not hand shy or lethargic or aggressive. She acts like any other snake, and as long as she is telling me she is ok I will keep fighting for her. The skin is improving slowly - the back 50% of her where she is filling in first is about like a normal snake now.

So, we've been keeping on keeping on! Healing nicely and gaining weight. I am at work, but I will update with pictures when I can.  :Smile:

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*bcr229* (02-27-2019),*Bogertophis* (02-27-2019),mandymg86 (02-27-2019),_richardhind1972_ (02-27-2019)

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## richardhind1972

That's great news ,look forward to seeing the pics

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## Bogertophis

It's a real battle to help a snake like this...battles have their ups & downs, she is SO fortunate to have you on her side.   :Good Job:   Great job- hang in there.

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_richardhind1972_ (02-27-2019),_Spoons_ (02-28-2019)

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## Spoons

Ok. Update woth pics. Some information on her last 3 sheds: 

3 sheds ago: damaged a section of skin (see previous pics of when I found here covered in blood). The skin hardened rock hard into a scabby section.

2 sheds ago- this is the one where she shed a day early, before I could put her in the shedding tub I had ready and full of damp towel. She sloughed off the scab down to muscle. She also damaged a longer strip of skin down the side of her back. 

This last shed, maybe 5 days ago: the scab from last shed pulled off, and the skin underneath is white and healing wonderfully. its closed over. She did slough off the long strip of skin that was damaged, leaving a long wound that looks nasty but is less nasty in person. It is not quite all the way through the skin. The shed, otherwise, was flawless - I got her into her shedding tub, it came free in one piece. No new damaged skin. The new skin underneath is smooth and less fragile, it gets a little better every shed.

Included is a pic of her wound today that I snapped when she came out to see if I had any mice for her. It's entirely scabbed over and is closing amd healing very well. I think it'll look like the last one after next shed, which, if it goes anything like this one will mean she is past any damaged skin and can work on smoothing out the healing over the next few sheds. You can see where the old wound was, it's the whitish streak on her. 

I treat every other day with antibiotic ointment it's looking better than I ever hoped it was. I'm a tiny bit hesitant to post pics because I've gotten a little backlash elsewhere, but I stand by her treatment and that she is on a fast road to recovery and feeling good about it and is a (getting) healthy curious little snake

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*Bogertophis* (03-15-2019),_richardhind1972_ (03-15-2019)

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## Spoons

Last two from today after work. Pardon the water spots! From misting when she was blue 

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*Bogertophis* (03-15-2019)

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## richardhind1972

Wow,that is a big scar/wound , at least it doesn't look angry, if that makes sense.

you really are doing a great job, good job there's such nice people on this planet still, a lot of people would of given up on this a long time ago, hat off to you big time

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*Bogertophis* (03-15-2019)

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## Spoons

It does make sense! It's not angry, it's healing actually incredibly well. It seems, during this experience, I've found that snakes heal much faster than you'd expect them to. The edges of the wound seem to pull closer together every day. The scabby area is flexible still, it doesn't bunch up or pinch. 

Currently she's coiled half on top of her hide and half inside, watching me in hopes I'll appear with mice. Little goon. I can't wait til I can give her a full tank again and take her out of quarantine. 

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*Bogertophis* (03-15-2019),_FollowTheSun_ (03-15-2019),_richardhind1972_ (03-16-2019)

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## Bogertophis

She's one tough little fighter!   :Bowdown:   And so are you!   :Very Happy:   That's great that she eats so well, she really needs it to keep healing.   :Good Job:

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## Zincubus

Sorry Ive not been following the thread .... just noticed this photo though .. what on earth caused that apparent split in the skin !!??




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## Spoons

> Sorry Ive not been following the thread .... just noticed this photo though .. what on earth caused that apparent split in the skin !!??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It was a hard scabbed off area of damaged skin from the previous shed. She's had a few rough ones, and this last one peeled the hard damaged skin off. Because of the severity of the malnutrition, she had tissue paper skin when I got her.

No new damaged skin, though, and it's firmer and feeling more like regular snake skin. There is no longer fluid under the skin, or bruising post-shed - I think after next shed, it should be closed up and on the road to full repair  :Smile:  

I used to handle her and feel like her skin would rip under my fingers. Now she feels more like a snake! 

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*Bogertophis* (03-15-2019),_richardhind1972_ (03-16-2019)

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## WhompingWillow

What did you end up deciding regarding giving her Vitamin C or a multivitamin? I'm glad she's hanging in there and slowly improving. She definitely lucked out the day you brought her home.  :Smile:

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## Bogertophis

> .... just noticed this photo though .. what on earth caused that apparent split in the skin !!?? ....


Chronic malnutrition in snakes results in skin that tears very easily...I've taken in a similar snake (a boa) myself with the same problem.  In case you want to 
hear this from more than just one member?   :Wink:   It's horribly challenging to treat & yeah, the pictures are shocking, to say the least...but this snake is recovering.

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_Spoons_ (03-15-2019),Zincubus (03-16-2019)

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## Spoons

> What did you end up deciding regarding giving her Vitamin C or a multivitamin? I'm glad she's hanging in there and slowly improving. She definitely lucked out the day you brought her home.


I ended up not supplementing because I was unable to find anything about dosing and safety. Vitamin C is water soluble, which means any that isn't used immediately in body is passed through waste (pee) so while over dosing would be a small chance, it's not one I wanted to take. This also means that while I'm sure her body uses the vitamin C from her meals as fast as it can, any left over is passed in waste until she eats again.

I did, however, switch to feeding her smaller meals more frequently so her body has a more frequent source of vitamins than once per week. The smaller prey helps while she heals too, as there's less body stretching than one big meal.

I'm still toying with trying to inject a little slurry of a multivitamin powder into a mouse once a week, but haven't taken that step yet. I would like to do more research on dosing and solubility - anything fat soluble CAN be over dosed, and I don't want to do that. 

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*Bogertophis* (03-15-2019),Zincubus (03-16-2019)

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## Bogertophis

I used to add a little bit of reptile vitamin powder to prey when I bred a few snakes years ago...I no longer use it, but in your case, I probably would use just 
a tiny amount*, & maybe every third feeding...more or less as a "safety net", & not trying to meet the RDA that we have no standards for in snakes anyway.
My snakes were healthy & remained so, & there's no way to know how much of a difference the vitamins made.  I suspect it might help yours though & I don't 
believe it would hurt anything.  *Either reptile or bird vitamins. 

It's the way I take my own supplements, since there are so many "ifs" even in products for humans.  There is no guarantee of purity -what!?  :Surprised:  so while I can 
see there may be a benefit for some things (depending on one's diet), there's no way I want to take much of anything, just in case.  Know what I mean?

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## Spoons

I just ordered some reptile vitamins for her, and will give some with her next meal.  :Smile:  You're right, since most vitamins aren't monitored by the FDA there isn't really a guarantee on purity or anything. Makes it hard! But I don't think it'll hurt her. Gotta stop on my way home today and restock on mice! I'll see about getting an updated weight on her, I haven't done in a while. With everything going on I've been going for minimal handling - but it'll be interesting to see how she's come since the 50something grams she was when I brought her back.

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*Bogertophis* (03-16-2019),Lusiphera (03-17-2019),_richardhind1972_ (03-16-2019)

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## Spoons

Here's an updated couple pics! Wound is closing incredibly well. She ate a few days ago. Very pleased with the progress. I'm really excited for her next shed to see how well it's doing once new skin truly starts coming in. I'm still surprised at how quickly snakes heal! 

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*Bogertophis* (03-31-2019),_GoingPostal_ (05-08-2020),_richardhind1972_ (04-01-2019)

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## Jellybeans

> Here's an updated couple pics! Wound is closing incredibly well. She ate a few days ago. Very pleased with the progress. I'm really excited for her next shed to see how well it's doing once new skin truly starts coming in. I'm still surprised at how quickly snakes heal! 
> 
> Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


Great job on your part !

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## Bogertophis

..."With a little help from [their] friends..."   :Good Job:   Thanks to you she's gotten a chance.

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## Spoons

Hi! 

Not many more updates for this thread I think, because I believe she's finally leaving the woods - but I will post a few every so often til she's 100%.  :Smile:  I finally was able to give her back her substrate, favorite basking branch and hides, and some foliage cover. She is THRILLED about it, because she's a goof and really loves to sit on her branch and channel her inner Green Tree Python (she will even strike, coil, and eat her meal from her branch). She will still get it taken away for sheds because the last 1/4 of her body is still really soft fragile skin, but she's in no danger of tears when she isn't in shed anymore. 

Now that her wounds have scarred and healed over, she can take appropriately sized prey items instead of smaller but more frequent. She get small adult mice and has the voracious feeding response of a starving dragon, and I think if I let her she'd eat every day. When it's not food time she is a wonderful curious little thing and likes to watch the goings-on of the house. 

She has one bump (cyst?) That needs vet attention, as when she shed several times ago her skin peeled over it and instead of healing over it, the skin healed around it. So, I'm guessing she will need that professionally removed and skin stitched back together, but as of now it's dry and hard and 'healed' and doesn't seem to bother her so it's not a top priority, I'd like to wait a few more sheds for her skin to fully recover and for her to gain weight. She's healthier but still a little skinny.  :Smile:  

She's at about 150ish grams now. We've been fighting this for a full year now, and she's gained 100 grams. That doesn't sound like a lot, but when you look at where she started...a decent amount of that has been gained in the last 3-6 months. I'd guess it takes a huge amount of calories to heal that much, so she's been mostly maintaining with an ever so slight upward trend until recently when she started packing on the grams. Huge relief, huge difference. 

Overall I'm extremely pleased and she has shown me I made the right call helping her through everything and now she's growing like a weed and I'll get to give her a bigger tank than a 10 gallon!!!! (Argus outgrew his in weeks, she's lived in it for a year but it's getting a little tight finally!) 

(Full disclosure, she does have a cool hide, it was soaking in the sink. All temps are spot on per heat gun and regulated, she just really likes her branch).

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*bcr229* (09-03-2019),_ladywhipple02_ (09-06-2019),_Luvyna_ (09-06-2019)

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## Bogertophis

Wow, she's really looking good!  She never would have made it without your help, you've worked so hard to save her & very few people would or could have done 
what you've done.     :Sweeet:    Now if only the retail stores would quit "supplying" snakes in this condition... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> ... I finally was able to give her back her substrate, favorite basking branch and hides, and some foliage cover. She is THRILLED about it, because she's a goof and really loves to sit on her branch and channel her inner Green Tree Python (she will even strike, coil, and eat her meal from her branch)...


  :ROFL:   Thank you again for this update...you made my day!

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## Spoons

> Wow, she's really looking good!  She never would have made it without your help, you've worked so hard to save her & very few people would or could have done 
> what you've done.       Now if only the retail stores would quit "supplying" snakes in this condition...


The pet store I got her from doesn't seem to sell snakes any more. I don't think it's related to this snake in particular, but it's still a nice change. 

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*Bogertophis* (09-03-2019)

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## Bogertophis

> The pet store I got her from doesn't seem to sell snakes any more. I don't think it's related to this snake in particular, but it's still a nice change. 
> 
> Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


It's hard to say...I know there have been petitions circulated asking that pet stores stop supplying live animals for reasons just like this.  I must admit to being on the "fence" about it:  seeing unfamiliar exotic animals up close in a local store is very enticing...especially when they can become your pet...but I also know the inherent cruelty & spread of disease that goes along with them being on display in a retail world.  There are some good shops around, but the bad ones seem to outnumber the good ones, and the un-enlightened "average pet buyer" has no idea.  It's ultimately the pets that suffer.  You many never know if that store had an outbreak among their snakes that affected their profits enough to change their minds, or if they realized (with a little help from customers) that they were in over their heads?

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_Spoons_ (09-13-2019)

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## Awesomethepossum

I'm a little late in the game here, but I just finished reading through your updates. It's great to see success stories such as this- you did an amazing job!



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_Spoons_ (09-13-2019)

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## ladywhipple02

Thanks for the updates Spoons. I don't post on these threads often - prefer to lurk and follow - but you've done an amazing job with this little girl. I tend to look at an animal's eyes as a testament for their care - whether dog, cat, snake, etc, you can really tell a lot about their eyes. Hers were so dull in the first pics, like she'd given up on life. In the pics you just posted, they're super bright and alive, and she looks so much happier. All because you didn't give up! 

I sometimes think about the fine line between not saving these poor critters from the big box stores and not supporting the habit. I think it's easy to get jaded - how can we save them all? I, however, prefer to live by the tenant of the starfish story: 

_A young girl was walking along a beach upon which thousands of starfish had been washed up during a terrible storm. When she came to each starfish, she would pick it up, and throw it back into the ocean. People watched her with amusement.
She had been doing this for some time when a man approached her and said, Little girl, why are you doing this? Look at this beach! You cant save all these starfish. You cant begin to make a difference!
The girl seemed crushed, suddenly deflated. But after a few moments, she bent down, picked up another starfish, and hurled it as far as she could into the ocean. Then she looked up at the man and replied, Well, I made a difference to that one!
The old man looked at the girl inquisitively and thought about what she had done and said. Inspired, he joined the little girl in throwing starfish back into the sea. Soon others joined, and all the starfish were saved._


You made a difference to this little noodle, and that's what counts.

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*Bogertophis* (09-06-2019),LyraIsGray (05-19-2020),_pretends2bnormal_ (09-13-2019),_Spoons_ (09-13-2019)

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## Spoons

Thank you! I really enjoy that story as well. I've gotten a little flak about the effort it's taken but I stand by my choices and now have a gorgeous little snake. What one person looks at as a 'normal' boring snake is still worth the same care as a more expensive coloration. "It's just a snake, get a new one" is something I've heard more than once, which makes me a little sad that people have that outlook on something that relies on 100% of its care to come from the person who CHOSE to buy it.

 Bogertophis, RE that pet store that no longer sells, I wonder if it was the doing of the employee who helped me get the stuff I needed to take her home at such a steep discount. He was a snake owner himself and knew that the care they were providing was not up to par but couldn't change it due to store policies. One can only hope.

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*Bogertophis* (09-13-2019)

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## Spoons

Bonus post shed pic from just the other day 

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*Bogertophis* (09-13-2019),_ladywhipple02_ (09-13-2019),_Luvyna_ (11-25-2019)

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## Bogertophis

> ...I stand by my choices and now have a gorgeous little snake. What one person looks at as a 'normal' boring snake is still worth the same care as a more expensive coloration. "It's just a snake, get a new one" is something I've heard more than once, which makes me a little sad that people have that outlook on something that relies on 100% of its care to come from the person who CHOSE to buy it...


As if "just a normal colored snake" is somehow less deserving of good care...because the price tag was lower & it's less "exotic"?   :Sad:   No way!  
"Normal" is what nature created, it's what survives best... :Good Job:

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_Spoons_ (09-27-2019)

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## sur3fir3

> Bonus post shed pic from just the other day 
> 
> Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


I've got to say I really respect what you have done here.  It speaks volumes about you.

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*Bogertophis* (09-13-2019),_pretends2bnormal_ (09-13-2019),_Spoons_ (09-27-2019)

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## Spoons

Thank you  :Smile:  I take pride in the care I take of my animals, and I'm a total bleeding heart when it comes to those in need. Seeing them flourish with proper care and vet assistance and love - regardless of animal - makes every penny worth it. I feel very lucky to have a fiance who's a total enabler in that regard. 

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*Bogertophis* (09-27-2019)

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## Bogertophis

Thank YOU for sharing this journey here...you're a wonderful influence & a "tough act to follow"  :Very Happy: ...you make this forum a much better place, showing what can 
happen when snakes don't get proper care, and that there is still hope for their recovery in the right hands.   :Good Job:

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## Spoons

Periodic update time  :Smile:  she shed once more. She did get a small (pinky nail sized) red spot behind her head this time, even in her shedding tank of soft damp rags. The skin by her head and tail end is still somewhat soft - it's small and doesn't seem to be toughening up like a scab though so I'm not worried about it. 

The little 'cyst' spot I wrote about before is also going down, and looks like it may be gone in a few sheds with no surgical intervention. 

My adult male Argus has long since outgrown his tank - it's a large Exp Terra that he's put up with far longer than he should have to - so his new big PVC enclosure is in the works, and Hera will move into his tank. I think she will LOVE it - tons of fake plants and hides and clutter for her to feel secure, a branch for her to climb since she loves her current one so much, and space to roam. Ill stuff the hides so they're smaller inside and she can bourrow them out as she sees fit and as she grows. Her current tank will turn into a shedding tank she will live in for the week she's in shed, as long as she may need it

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*Bogertophis* (11-17-2019),_Luvyna_ (11-25-2019)

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## OkamiFlautist

> Periodic update time  she shed once more. She did get a small (pinky nail sized) red spot behind her head this time, even in her shedding tank of soft damp rags. The skin by her head and tail end is still somewhat soft - it's small and doesn't seem to be toughening up like a scab though so I'm not worried about it. 
> 
> The little 'cyst' spot I wrote about before is also going down, and looks like it may be gone in a few sheds with no surgical intervention. 
> 
> My adult male Argus has long since outgrown his tank - it's a large Exp Terra that he's put up with far longer than he should have to - so his new big PVC enclosure is in the works, and Hera will move into his tank. I think she will LOVE it - tons of fake plants and hides and clutter for her to feel secure, a branch for her to climb since she loves her current one so much, and space to roam. Ill stuff the hides so they're smaller inside and she can bourrow them out as she sees fit and as she grows. Her current tank will turn into a shedding tank she will live in for the week she's in shed, as long as she may need it


She's looking so much better, Spoons! 

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_Spoons_ (01-14-2020)

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## Bogertophis

Wow, she's looking really good...she's come a long way, thanks to you.   :Good Job:

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_Spoons_ (01-14-2020)

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## Southpaw91

This is one of my favorite threads on here.  Thank you for sharing Hera's amazing journey.  I hope you continue to share as she grows into the beautiful, proud python she's destined to be!  I really appreciate the love and dedication you have shown this amazing animal.  You both should be so proud!!! <3

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*Bogertophis* (05-08-2020),LyraIsGray (05-19-2020),_Spoons_ (01-14-2020)

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## BPfanLynn

> This is one of my favorite threads on here.  Thank you for sharing Hera's amazing journey.  I hope you continue to share as she grows into the beautiful, proud python she's destined to be!  I really appreciate the love and dedication you have shown this amazing animal.  You both should be so proud!!! <3


This is my first post but I've been lurking and learning a great deal of info on the care and husbandry of ball pythons. I've been following your thread and have been cheering you on throughout your journey, rejoicing in every milestone! You are truly amazing and inspiring. Thank you for sharing with us!

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_Spoons_ (01-14-2020)

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## Spoons

Time for another quick update. She just switched to rats and took her first rat pup! I don't think she's going to get very big, she's two years old now and just a little thing - but she's cute! She just shed for me and is looking sleek with fresh paint.  :Smile: 

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ballpythonluvr (05-08-2020),*Bogertophis* (05-08-2020),_dakski_ (05-08-2020),e_nigma (05-08-2020),_GoingPostal_ (05-08-2020),_Luvyna_ (05-08-2020),_Southpaw91_ (05-09-2020)

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## Bogertophis

Very cute...and EVER so special.  She's so lucky you came into her life, great job!   :Good Job:

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_dakski_ (05-08-2020)

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## Luvyna

Just read through this thread all the way for the first time... wow. My heart broke when I saw that first photo of her you posted. It's so amazing how far she's come now and how much you two have been through (the skin tearing was very scary to see!) You are an absolute angel for rescuing this poor snake, I know people (including me) always say to not buy from pet stores or get a snake because you feel bad for it but there's no denying that you saved this BP, made a world of difference in her life, and gave her a loving home she might otherwise never have had to the chance to experience. You've truly done something amazing here, I wouldn't have expected this snake to live given the condition she was in when you got her. Thank goodness you got to her in time  :Smile:  I hope you'll keep updating us every once in a while on how she's doing! She's a real trooper.

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*Bogertophis* (05-08-2020),LyraIsGray (05-19-2020)

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## Ksouthco

I know this post is several months old, but I just wanted to throw out there that I really appreciate this thread. It brought tears to my eyes to see Hera's recovery because this is what my girl is going through currently. After a while of food refusal, she started developing the fluid pockets and her skin started rupturing like your baby's did. I brought her to the vet and they gave me injections of fortaz, SSD cream and the advice to be ready for her not to make it. I'm EXTREMELY happy to say that she has been showing immense amounts of progress and it's only been a week since bringing her home. She is finally back to her old self, is eating every time I offer food to her and has a protective layer growing over her wounds. She is also not leaking blood tinged fluid everywhere anymore. I was in tears and thought I was going to lose her when I came across this thread, and it gave me hope. Luckily, my hope for her making it through this has steadily increased because of her steady progression. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. You have impacted much more than you are probably aware of.  :Smile:

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ballpythonluvr (03-16-2021),*Bogertophis* (03-15-2021),_EL-Ziggy_ (03-15-2021),_GoingPostal_ (03-15-2021)

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