# Other Pythons > General Pythons >  RI - antibiotics and success rates

## KittyKatSuperStar

Hi there! I'm new to the forum and unfortunatly my two carpet pythons have both got respiratory infections. 

I took them to the vet on Friday and she gave them antibiotics and after taking them back today, she said that my 3yr old CP had gained a bit of weight whilst my baby had lost a tiny bit more but felt that they were still in the same condition as before the weekend.
I've heard from a lot of other snake owners that antibiotics often hasn't worked for them and wondered what the general opinion between other owners was. Also, for those who have used antibiotics how long did it take for the RI to clear up? I'm really, really worried about them so any advice is more than welcome (obviously I have also raised temperatures etc).  :Confused: 

Thanks!

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## reptile3

I am new too all this to, my bp was diagnosed last week with pneumonia. He is on Baytril, i have to give him a shot every 48 hours for the next 2 weeks. Today is his 3rd shot.  I too was curious to when it will start to work.. He still has his mouth open... I worry, I don't want to loose him.  I have never had any sick reptiles before, so like I said this is all new to me too!!!

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## edie

Hi, my 5'8" RTB had an RI and I got her some antibiotics, she was originally on 2 weeks of shots, but the infection didn't clear up.. So the vet put her on 2 more weeks (which I just completed) and the infection seems to be gone now.
I also had to soak my boa everyday (for like 5-10 min at a time) to help with the infection.. it seemed to help clear her up.

Anyways, I feel like the antibiotics worked.. If the infection doesn't clear up you may need to put the snake on more antibiotics or ask the vet if there is something else you could be doing.

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## edie

> I am new too all this to, my bp was diagnosed last week with pneumonia. He is on Baytril, i have to give him a shot every 48 hours for the next 2 weeks. Today is his 3rd shot.  I too was curious to when it will start to work.. He still has his mouth open... I worry, I don't want to loose him.  I have never had any sick reptiles before, so like I said this is all new to me too!!!


It was my first sick reptile too! I hope your snake gets better.. I didn't see a real difference in my snake until he completed his second round of 2 week antibiotics. (My RTB was on the same antibiotics every 48hrs for 2 weeks as well)
Since you have a smaller snake you probably shouldn't need to go on a second round, hopefully you'll notice a difference soon.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

hi
i have only had a few ri's in the last few years. all were a result of shipping. i use a product to treat this that is a general antibiotic. i have had 100% success rate with this. a lot of the stuff that a vet will give you will leave scars on your snake. if you would like to know any more about what i use pm me. and we can talk about it.

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tejanastar (11-19-2011)

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## reptile3

> It was my first sick reptile too! I hope your snake gets better.. I didn't see a real difference in my snake until he completed his second round of 2 week antibiotics. (My RTB was on the same antibiotics every 48hrs for 2 weeks as well)
> Since you have a smaller snake you probably shouldn't need to go on a second round, hopefully you'll notice a difference soon.


Thank you for your reply... I am sorry your snake was sick too. MY George still opens his mouth, it makes me nervous. He just had a nice 15 min soak in the tub, and he is almost done with his shed. again, thanks :Snake:

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## KittyKatSuperStar

> hi
> i have only had a few ri's in the last few years. all were a result of shipping. i use a product to treat this that is a general antibiotic. i have had 100% success rate with this. a lot of the stuff that a vet will give you will leave scars on your snake. if you would like to know any more about what i use pm me. and we can talk about it.


What do you mean by scars? Also, did any of yours eat at all whilst they were sick?  :Smile:

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## JeffFlanagan

> I've heard from a lot of other snake owners that antibiotics often hasn't worked for them and wondered what the general opinion between other owners was. Also, for those who have used antibiotics how long did it take for the RI to clear up?
> Thanks!


I've had a snake die after the first shot, but otherwise antibiotic treatment has cured my snakes in 4-5 shots in most cases.  I had to try a second antibiotic in once case.
Of course I completed the course of antibiotics after the symptoms vanished.

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## Nate

> hi
> i have only had a few ri's in the last few years. all were a result of shipping. i use a product to treat this that is a general antibiotic. i have had 100% success rate with this. a lot of the stuff that a vet will give you will leave scars on your snake. if you would like to know any more about what i use pm me. and we can talk about it.


Please share this information with us...after all, this is a site for people to learn, right?  I don't see a good reason why useful information should only be exchanged in a PM  :Confused2:

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## reptile3

> Also, did any of yours eat at all whilst they were sick?


I just gave George his #3 shot, and he ate last night, this is his second fuzzy since we got him 4 weeks ago. He has been hiding in his little hide spot. I touch him to see if he is ok..  Also I will add he just finished a shed too.  I believe the antibiotics is working.

But just like us humans, if we start to show signs of getting better, you still finish all the meds.

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## Colin Vestrand

here's a question, what makes you think they have an RI?

if it's just because they're whistling then they're probably just being carpets... all mine do this and it is well documented that they will make a noise from time to time that many people (including vets) fear is the first symptoms of an RI.  obviously its not good to give antiobiotics when they arent needed so i'd tread carefully there.

if i'm way off from your current situation then just disregard  :Smile:

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## reptile3

> here's a question, what makes you think they have an RI?
> 
> if it's just because they're whistling then they're probably just being carpets... all mine do this and it is well documented that they will make a noise from time to time that many people (including vets) fear is the first symptoms of an RI.  obviously its not good to give antiobiotics when they arent needed so i'd tread carefully there.
> 
> if i'm way off from your current situation then just disregard


Before I took George, I came here & asked. George was tilting his head, gasping his mouth open, constantly.... When the Vet listening to him breath, he heard some congestion. ON day #3 of shots, I'd say George is less gasping his mouth open.. he finished a shed & finally ate. 

I had no idea that Snakes gets URI/pneumonia, mites too.

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## JeffFlanagan

> When the Vet listening to him breath, he heard some congestion. ON day #3 of shots, I'd say George is less gasping his mouth open.. he finished a shed & finally ate.


It sounds like he's being treated properly, is doing well, and is on-track to a full recovery.

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## KittyKatSuperStar

> here's a question, what makes you think they have an RI?
> 
> if it's just because they're whistling then they're probably just being carpets... all mine do this and it is well documented that they will make a noise from time to time that many people (including vets) fear is the first symptoms of an RI.  obviously its not good to give antiobiotics when they arent needed so i'd tread carefully there.
> 
> if i'm way off from your current situation then just disregard


Well, my bigger cp was wheezing quite a lot, sneezing, rubbing her face against everything, not eating, and she also had mucous coming out of her mouth. My smaller one was also rubbing her head against surfaces and exhibiting open-mouth breathing. Also, she was an excellent feeder (she is still supposed to be on pinkies but went straight for my other snakes' fuzzies and munched them all when I first got her!) and suddenly refused to eat, which really isn't like her as she's terribly greedy! The vet confirmed that they both had fluid in the back of their mouths, indicating RI.  :Please: 

I was a bit worried about giving them antibiotics as some of my friends say it hasn't worked for them and it can have side effects. However I'm trusting the vet in this case  :Smile:

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

> Please share this information with us...after all, this is a site for people to learn, right?  I don't see a good reason why useful information should only be exchanged in a PM


the product is called tylan 200. it is marketed as a bovine medicen but after talking to a few vets they say that it is more than safe for use on *boids only*. i have never treated a snake that did not get better. 
this has ben refered to me by a few good frinds in the snake bisnuess. one of the most popular people that use it is jeff ron of boaphile plastics who has the largest collection of boas in the us. he says he has been useing this product for a over 15 years and has not had a problem. 

the recommended dose. you have to figure out the snakes poundage then times that number by 1.25 and this number is the ammount of cc's you should use. there is a total of three treatments total. one ever three days. i have only ever had to extend 2 more doses for 1 relly bad problem that arose from getting a snake in the middle of winter that was not packed right.


dont get me wrong i do believe in going to the vet for real medical problems. but to me a mild case of ri is like going to the doctor for a sinus infection. ie there are pleanty of over the counter meds that will cost you a hell of a lot less than going to the doctors office. 

this is just what has worked for me, and many others. i advise you talk to your vet before you do anything to your animals. 
( my little disclaimer)

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

some will eat some wont it is relly not something to worry about till they are better from there ri. 
i have a boa and i am sure others here have some snakes that have small dime sized scars from the medication the vet gives for ri. the stuff works great but usually leavs some scaring. be sure to not inject the same spot twice.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

RI - antibiotics and... 01-08-2008 06:31 AM JLC You are NOT a vet and should NOT be attempting to use our site to hand out ANY sort of "medical" advice, much less prescribing "medicines". -- JLC 

not sure what the heck this is souposed to be about. but most people like to make there own decisions about most things. this is a example of cencership at its worst. this is why i only posted that people should contact me for info on the product. where i tell them what it is and how to use it but warn them that this is there decision. 
just last spring i helped porkchopsandcornbread aka jake out with a young sick boa he had. the total cost to get his snake better was less than 30 bucks. one trip to a vet for the same thing would be over 100 bucks. and keep in mind this is a 15 year old kid at the time.

read the damn thread title i was only shareing what had worked for me. 

geeeezzzzzzzzzzz

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## JLC

Dude....that's not censorship.  That's me expressing my opinion.  (and for anyone who hasn't guessed it...that's a quote from a neg rep comment I left)  Censorship would be me deleting the post. 

That original post you made about this subject makes you sound like some shadowy guy standing in an alley with snakeoil hidden under your trench coat that will "cure anything"... 

For what it's worth, I was about to pos rep your follow-up post because it included REAL information that anyone who wished could then ask their vet about.  And then this lovely post followed on its heels.  I don't have a problem with giving people all the information on something and letting them make their own choices....but this "psssssssst....I have a secret cure if you want to speak privately where no one else can see it"....not gonna fly with me.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

only you expressing your opinion LMFAO. OK! it was a neg rep form you.  you are a site admin. you opinion would be you posting after my post or pming me. that is like the fcc fineing someone , and when they say censorship the fcc saying no it is just my opinion.

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## SatanicIntention

One other thing, Tylan ONLY treats mycoplasma-related respiratory problems, it doesn't treat other bacteria.. SO, if your snake has a streptococcal based respiratory infection, good luck!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Also, Tylan rarely even works for rats, who are Myco factories, and instead a combo of Baytril and Doxycycline is a much better treatment option when dealing with a bad respiratory infection in the rat.

The best option is to get a culture, AT THE VET, and let them determine the course of action. 

Antibiotics do not cause scarring if you are doing it properly. Baytril needs to be diluted with a bit of saline before injection, because 1) it doesn't burn as much to the snake, and 2) it doesn't cause as much of a tissue reaction, therefore less chance of scarring.

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## Colin Vestrand

> Before I took George, I came here & asked. George was tilting his head, gasping his mouth open, constantly.... When the Vet listening to him breath, he heard some congestion. ON day #3 of shots, I'd say George is less gasping his mouth open.. he finished a shed & finally ate. 
> 
> I had no idea that Snakes gets URI/pneumonia, mites too.


okee doke, just making sure.   :Smile:

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## reptile3

> be sure to not inject the same spot twice.



My Vet talked to me, showed me how to inject the needle.And of course, I knew not to inject in the same spot twice. Told me to rotate each side.

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## Cameron15

I'm not sure if tylan is the right antibiotic or for what germ, but a forum member on one of the boa forums recommended I try tylan after spending $200 at the vet and 2 weeks of Baytil 68mg pills with no results. We even tried adding a second antibiotic given in shots for an additional 2 weeks. Nothing seemed to cure the RI my girl had last year and it had been over a month since she ate. A forum member suggested I should give this tylan a try, she sent me a link and instructions along with a few threads. One of those threads was from Jeff Ronne with great results from using this tylan. 

I don't know how tylan works on rats but $20.00 and a few shots later the RI was completely gone from my girl and she went right back to eating better than ever. Vet or no vet I appreciate the information and experience shared by all willing to help. I'm glad some are willing to step outside the box to help out a fellow snake owner.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

verry nice post. glad your snake got better. the first time i treated a snake i bought the wong stuff i bought tylan 50 wich i thought was only a smaller bottle not a different med. this was less then 15% of the recommended dose and the snake still got better. so say what you want this stuff works. 

i have no idea how in the heck we got on rats we are talking about ri in boids. 

and as far as there being more than one type of RI. all i know the one that tylan must cure must be the one that pops up 90% of the time as everyone i have ever told to use it have had a healthy snake 9 days later.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

> My Vet talked to me, showed me how to inject the needle.And of course, I knew not to inject in the same spot twice. Told me to rotate each side.



glad to hear. best of luck to you.  :Good Job:

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## SatanicIntention

Yes, heaven forbid we take an animal to the vet for proper treatment.   :Wag of the finger: 

I mentioned rats because they ALL carry mycoplasma bacteria, which is what Tylan treats(in pigs). Tylan is used in swine to prevent mycoplasmosis, which depresses the immune system causing respiratory infections. If it works, great, but if your snake has a specific bacteria that isn't susceptible to tylosin, and you're sticking your snake with needles for 2-3 weeks wondering why it's still sick, and ruining the snake's kidneys, when all you had to do was get a culture and put the snake on Amikacin..?  What does that solve? Whole lotta nothin'!

Get a culture, find out what bacteria the snake has and what antibiotics will work, and go from there.

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## reptile3

I am confused... Baytril is not good for my snake? Like I said in the beginning, I have never had a sick reptile ever. I came here for some advice, was told George  may have a URI, turned out to be pneumonia, The Vet gave him 1 shot there, showed me how to do it. So for the next two weeks, every other day, inject the meds(baytril) into George. also after the shots, was told to give him a nice warm bath, which he loves...From the #3 injection. George has stopped gaping his mouth open, and is looking better(JMO). So I am sure the medicine he is on, is helping him. If not then i will go back till he is completely better.  As we would with ourselves...  Thank you, maybe I will bring up that medicine, Tylan up to my Vet when he calls to see how George is doing. 












> Yes, heaven forbid we take an animal to the vet for proper treatment.  
> 
> I mentioned rats because they ALL carry mycoplasma bacteria, which is what Tylan treats(in pigs). Tylan is used in swine to prevent mycoplasmosis, which depresses the immune system causing respiratory infections. If it works, great, but if your snake has a specific bacteria that isn't susceptible to tylosin, and you're sticking your snake with needles for 2-3 weeks wondering why it's still sick, and ruining the snake's kidneys, when all you had to do was get a culture and put the snake on Amikacin..?  What does that solve? Whole lotta nothin'!
> 
> Get a culture, find out what bacteria the snake has and what antibiotics will work, and go from there.

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## littleindiangirl

Baytril is fine for your snake.

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## littleindiangirl

Good advice Becky! We have to remember people, that over using and prescribing medicine can lead to problems with resistance in the future. Or in some cases, not even cure the problem!

There are obviously some major differences between Tylan and Baytril, the most notable to owners is price. Baytril is expensive, but it is a broad spectrum anti-biotic. I have used baytril on rats , and they have made complete and full recoveries from their RI.

For snakes, prescribing something yourself that has just been said by Becky to be useful against only Myco is missing the benefits of a broad spectrum anti-bacterial product.

I would hope everyone does the responsible thing and takes their animal to the Vet for a culture. It's best to know what your dealing with from the start. And don't promote the misuse of medicine, it CAN create resistances, especially if it is not used for the full amount of time, and can make your snake or animal sick (and probably worse) off again.

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## SatanicIntention

Reptile, since the Baytril is working, then that is what your snake needs to be on. If the snake hadn't shown improvement after 2-3 injections, then the antibiotic would need to be changed. Baytril is a very potent broad-spectrum antibiotic and works well for most respiratory infections. 

It's really not as expensive as you may think, I have a 100ml bottle of the 100mg/ml concentration and it only cost me around $70. I love my vet  :Smile:

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## littleindiangirl

Yup, have to agree with Becky again. I paid $20 for my doses of Baytril, (for rats again). Unfortunately, I didn't get that good of a deal LOL. $70 for 100 ml? Sign me up!  Haha

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## reptile3

Thank you... :Snake: 




> Reptile, since the Baytril is working, then that is what your snake needs to be on. If the snake hadn't shown improvement after 2-3 injections, then the antibiotic would need to be changed. Baytril is a very potent broad-spectrum antibiotic and works well for most respiratory infections. 
> 
> It's really not as expensive as you may think, I have a 100ml bottle of the 100mg/ml concentration and it only cost me around $70. I love my vet

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=58707&page=2
Baytril shot scars pics by cassandra

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## SatanicIntention

Baytril doesn't cause scarring IF you do it properly, IE diluting with saline prior to injection. Baytril BURNS like nobody's business if given regular strength anyway, so diluting it with saline serves two purposes...

Matt, you must have an issue with taking your animals to the vet.. As well as everyone elses'.. Veterinarians are there for a reason, and even if you're not going to use them, don't suggest that other people don't. What if someone's snake has a respiratory infection, and you tell them to go to the feed store, get some Tylan and needles/syringes, and give so-and-so amount over this many days, but their snake doesn't respond. But wait, you told them it would work and not to go to the vet, right? However long goes by and their snake is drowning in its own fluids from advanced pneumonia, while the poor owner is left twiddling their thumbs waiting on meds that won't work...

Doesn't sound like good, solid advice to me..

Edit: I have a Het Pied male who came to me with a respiratory infection from shipping stress, he was on IM baytril for over a month and never scarred up. His skin is as perfect as the day he hatched. Don't tell me that it causes scars, because it doesn't. I'm even using the biggest strength of Baytril and still didn't get scars.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

why was he on baytril for over a month.

i have only ever advised tylan to people when they come to me and when nothing else has worked. just like jakes boa. you are 100% right i have never and i mean never had a good experience with so called reptile vets. all you have to do is read the same medical book they do.

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## littleindiangirl

Matt, I don't know what your motivations were by bringing up that post. Are you trying to dissuade people from using Baytril (Enroflaxacin) because it can cause a scar?

The point Becky has been trying to make, is that scarring is really a small chanced side effect. Most if not all medications come with side effects, and when Baytril is diluted properly, the chance of scarring is very very limited. 

Baytril is an excellent drug, and has shown great success for illnesses such as RI's, gastrointestinal infections, urinary tract infections and more. It is used and prescribed by thousands of Veterinarians across the country.

In the case of Baytril and taking your animal to the vet, the pros outweight the cons monumentally.

edit:
Good job btw with the Vet comment and belittling all of their 8+ years of medical training. I suppose all Vet's and MD's are really just "reading the books" and have no more knowledge than some readings right?

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

that is good advice to delute it. i have never herd a vet tell people to do that. did you come up with that?

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## SatanicIntention

No, it's because I have a GOOD vet! It's not difficult to figure out that if a drug is strong and normally burns tissues, that diluting it with saline will help stop the burning and tissue destruction.

Also, my het Pied was on antibiotics for over a month because that is what is usually prescribed. Talk to a few good reptile vets and they'll tell you. People rarely give antibiotics for a long enough period. Reptiles have such slow metabolisms that it takes longer for the antibiotics to go through their system, and they need to take them for a longer period so the infection fully clears up(not just goes away). 

I take my horse to a vet who is ALSO a pharmacist.. Wonder how long he was in school? And he's useless, right? My herp vet is the ONLY vet I will take my rats and snakes too, as she is competent, and if she doesn't know something, she will go look it up. I take great pride knowing my animals are in good hands, and I have someone knowledgeable to fall back on if I have questions or concerns. I guess you don't want that for your 100s of Balls, correct?

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## Shelby

Becky, just curious.. how much saline would you dilute with the baytril?

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## SatanicIntention

With a small dose, such as 0.01-0.03 I usually dilute it by 0.1-0.15ml of saline. With a bigger dose such as 0.05-0.1 I use up to 0.2ml of saline(0.3ml of fluid total going in). Seems to work better for me and disperses through the tissues easier. They don't flinch as much(except when the needle goes in) nor do they thrash about when injecting the meds in. Works well for me although I hope to not have to do it again for quite awhile.

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## KittyKatSuperStar

> Wonder how long he was in school? And he's useless, right?


I agree with you. I lot of herp owners have issues with vets, as I've discovered, but I believe they spent their 7 years studying for a good reason and would trust them long before anyone else. Personally I'd never be happy giving one of my snakes antibiotics that hadn't been prescribed by the vet. They know more than I do.

Also, bad news, I took my CPs back to the vet last night and my baby has also developed mouth rot as a secondary infection. Luckily it's been caught very early and I've been given iodine to clean it daily. It's heartbreaking for me to know my animals are discomfort and I'm kicking myself for putting my two CPs together, as it's Princess Peanut who infected Pickle (who now also has mouth rot). I've learnt my lesson  :Tears:

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## rabernet

> http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=58707&page=2
> Baytril shot scars pics by cassandra


Excerpt from Adam: 




> The side effects from Baytril injections are exclusively related to the 100mg concentration used for large bodied boids. *The 22.7mg concentration that ball pythons should be prescribed does not "burn" the skin. This is often a common misunderstanding about Baytril injections.* I've been treating ball pythons specifically with Baytril for well over a decade now and have never seen a single "burn" when using the correct concentration of the drug.


From this post: 

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...=589772#589772

Now whether this concentration works in boas, I don't know, since I'm not a vet - but thought I'd put it out for consideration that the burns referred to may have also been a result of a higher concentration.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

found this whial doing some reading around. verry cool


The Boaphile Internet

This may not be very exciting but this may be the most important E-mail I send via this little newsletter thing. Anyhow here goes! 

I am not a Dr. I am barely even literate as my writings will attest. I am not a Vet or even a Vet Tech. I didn't even take Chemistry in high school (schedule conflict). Loved science and was good at it but absolutely no training or expertise in the field, but I am sharing my experience here and now. I am not recommending you follow this but am merely relaying what I have observed. There are laws I think against giving medical advise without a license. Maybe even regarding Boa medicine. I am unlicensed and only retelling what has occurred here. 

As many of you know, I breed Boas. That's is, just Boas. I bred Ball Pythons once but that was really an accident. I am breeding a lot of Boas. I mean, a LOT of Boas. Every year I end up with a few Boas, which at the end of breeding season, have respiratory problems or in general get run down as a result of going through the stress of the long breeding season which, in Boas lasts from 2-5 or even up to 6 months. I have usually just watched these stressed Boas for a while keeping them slightly warmer than usual (85 degrees F or so) until the animal resumed vigorous feeding and returns to normal. Most snap out of it and take off again. However, a handful may require more TLC. I have used a number of anti- biotics with very limited success but what choice do we have but to try to do our best to take proper care of the animals we are entrusted for. I have used Amakacin, Baytril, Trimethoprim sulfa and Fortaz all with limited success. Very limited indeed. Health problems occasionally occur out of the blue at any time of the year in addition to the post breeding season. If the problem is so advanced as to be an obvious respiratory problem, it is probably quite severe and experience has taught me I have a really slim chance of curing the problem. I have had these animals to a good reptile vet for bacterial cultures and the recommended drug has been Amakacin or Baytril. These, in my experience in Boa Constrictors, have been very ineffective in bringing the animals around. Whether or not they knocked down the bacterial problem is to me irrelevant if the animal has lost the will to live. Bottom line I want the animal to spring back and do well. They seem to get so run down and just give up. 

I have heard for years of the existence of a drug called Tylan or Tylosin which has been used in Burmese for chronic respiratory problems. I have heard the Burms, in some cases have been treated for months on end with this dope with good results in warding off these respiratory problems. I figured I would give it a try. I spoke with a large Python guy who said he gave 50 mg/kg of this drug every three days long term with excellent results. I decided to give it a whirl. Tylan is used in swine and cattle for a number of problems and I purchased this over the counter at a local feed store in a bottle, big enough to treat a herd of cattle along with a few sick Boas. I injected the Tylan sub q which means just under the skin. This was repeated three more times waiting three days between each injection. Normal precautions were taken with alcohol and cotton balls. The results were UNBOALIEVABLE! 

Part II is the next post: * 
Jeff's article continued.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Here is the remaining information: 

One of the Boas I treated had had a chronic respiratory problem for about three years. This Boa was given to me by a friend of mine who was going to put her to sleep because he could not clear this up and he did not want his other animals to get this problem. She was dripping mucus from her mouth in such large quantities that she fogged up her cage glass in a matter of days after cleaning. She went into a shed and after shedding until now some 8 months later there has been absolutely no cold, no snot, nothing. She has been doing fantastic as have all the other animals I treated at that time. I had a particularly bad year last year and 11 animals with various and sundry problems which I treated with Tylan with fantastic results. Normally most of these animals would have died. They are wonderful! 

Sent a preliminary copy to Dave & Tracy Barker. Dave was nice enough to sent the following response along with some additional helpful 
information: 

Quote: 
"Hi Jeff, congrats on Volume 1, Issue 1 of the B.I.N. It is informative and interesting. Tylan was considered a wonder drug back in the mid 1970s. It cured many things that chloromycetin (our other wonder-drug back then) wouldn't touch, plus we could buy it without a prescription. It is very safe (I'm sure this isn't true, but I don't think one can over-dose it, at least I've seen it used very carelessly with no visible bad effects.) It's usually administered daily for two weeks, but I say go with what works. The thing about it is that it has little or no effect on gram-negative bacteria, which is the general type of bacteria that most-often causes disease in reptiles. But Tylan is one of few drugs that effectively treats a little-known and poorly understood group of organisms called micoplasms. Micoplasms are known to occasionally cause disease. They are difficult to culture and you have to specifically request that a culture be run for micoplasms, as they grow more slowly than bacteria. Most antibiotics have no effect on micoplasms. Most of the time Tylan is ineffective to use as a hit-or-miss antibiotic. But when it works, it can be dramatic. It would be my guess that the problems you've been seeing in your boa colony are caused by micoplasms. Just be aware that when Tylan doesn't work, it may be time to pull out the amikacin. "

Dave Barker  

Perhaps Boas in particular or at least Boas here at my place have been particularly vulnerable to these microplasms. Perhaps gram negative bacteria is not so common in Boa constrictors. Who knows? I just know I am very happy to have heard about and tried Tylan which has been the &quot;wonder drug&quot; for my Boas coming out of the breeding season along with the stresses the breeding season brings. 

Jeff Ronne

From this thread:
http://www.redtailboas.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9789

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

just in case some dont know who Jeff Ronne is, over 20 years dealing with Boas, helped write a book considered to be the Boa Bible, keeps and breed 1000's of snakes.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> just in case some dont know who Jeff Ronne is, over 20 years dealing with Boas, helped write a book considered to be the Boa Bible, keeps and breed 1000's of snakes.


Matt, do you have any information about the use of tylan specifically on pythons or just boas? Have you tried tylan on pythons? Since this thread was started in the python forum of the site, it might be useful information for future viewers.

Or, maybe this thread would do better in a general herp section of the site instead of the python forum?

-adam

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

i have only used it on one bp who came around awesome. from what i hear it is safe to use on any boid. with the same dosage scale. 1.25cc per pound of snake

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## Adam_Wysocki

> i have only used it on one bp who came around awesome. from what i hear it is safe to use on any boid. with the same dosage scale. 1.25cc per pound of snake


Cool ... I'll run it by my vet and see what he thinks ... Dr. Scott Stahl (www.seavs.com) is one of the premier herp vets in the world and works with animals from many of the big breeders including Pete Kahl, Ian G, and Ralph Davis ... I know that he's a fan of using Amikacin or Baytil in combination with Fortaz for most boids that he treats with RI, but I'm sure he's aware of the work being done with Tylan. After I speak with him I'll post what he thinks.

-adam

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## rabernet

This was interesting from your post, Matt: 




> The thing about it is that *it has little or no effect on gram-negative bacteria*, which is the general type of bacteria that *most-often causes disease in reptiles*.





> Micoplasms are known to *occasionally* cause disease. They are difficult to culture and you have to specifically request that a culture be run for micoplasms, as they grow more slowly than bacteria. Most antibiotics have no effect on micoplasms. *Most of the time Tylan is ineffective to use as a hit-or-miss antibiotic*. But when it works, it can be dramatic. It would be my guess that the problems you've been seeing in your boa colony are caused by micoplasms. Just be aware that when Tylan doesn't work, it may be time to pull out the amikacin. .


I think I'd be far more comfortable taking my animals to the vet to get cultures done and the appropriate medication prescribed, rather than using something that is ineffective "most of the time" and is a "hit-or-miss antibiotic" (according to Dave Baker in the post you provided) and risk their RI advancing if the Tylan were hit or miss in my case as well. 

Adam, I look forward to hearing what Dr. Stahl has to say too!

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## SatanicIntention

Like I said in the first place; vet, culture, proper antibiotics, snake is treated and healthy. None of this piddling around hooey, giving shots of swine antibiotics(for mYcoplasmosis), and hoping they work, when all you're causing is resistance to antibiotics as that bacteria gets stronger and stronger. 

If you read up on Amikacin, it's VERY hard on the kidneys when injected. Nebulized, it's not as bad. I'd rather use something else that worked and was gentler on their system. 

And Matt, please get your info straight on Mycoplasma bacteria, it's a gram positive bacteria that is easily killed by fluoroquinolones, such as Baytril, which is why Baytril is preferred when an animal has Myco(such as in rats). Baytril breaks down the cell wall and thus, the bacterium dies. Tylan doesn't work with gram POSITIVE bacteria, such as Clostridium sp. It does work for Strep-based bacteria, but that's about as far as its efficacy goes.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> If you read up on Amikacin, it's VERY hard on the kidneys when injected. Nebulized, it's not as bad. I'd rather use something else that worked and was gentler on their system.


I'm a fan of Enroflaxin as a first course for most gram neg infections ... I've also read the literature and have heard the warnings about Amikacin for over 10 years ... I also have a ton of practical experience using Amikacin without any problems ... If it's necessary and used correctly, I have no hesitation using it.

-adam

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## Brimstone111888

I think its kind of funny how Matt is asked to share the information by a mod, and then gets jumped on by a mod for posting it minutes later.

You wonder why people take information to PM's now......

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## SatanicIntention

Adam, you might have taken that wrong. It wasn't directed at your or anyone, just to people in general. I just said I preferred to use something easier on the kidneys/liver, such as enrofloxacin, unless the culture came back and said Amikacin was an antibiotic that would work. Of course I would use it if needed, no hesitation there.

It's great as a nebulizing drug too, if you ever need to try it. 1ml per 10 ml of saline, plus a bronchodilator if they are needing some extra clearing-out.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

> Cool ... I'll run it by my vet and see what he thinks ... Dr. Scott Stahl (www.seavs.com) is one of the premier herp vets in the world and works with animals from many of the big breeders including Pete Kahl, Ian G, and Ralph Davis ... I know that he's a fan of using Amikacin or Baytil in combination with Fortaz for most boids that he treats with RI, but I'm sure he's aware of the work being done with Tylan. After I speak with him I'll post what he thinks.
> 
> -adam


thanks for sharing your info. i cant wait to see what he says on the subject. when i talked to my vet about tylan she said there was a newer medicen that is souposed to be even better than tylan. next time i am in there i will post what that is.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> thanks for sharing your info. i cant wait to see what he says on the subject. when i talked to my vet about tylan she said there was a newer medicen that is souposed to be even better than tylan. next time i am in there i will post what that is.


There is a bunch of work currently being done with 3rd gen cephalosporins (similar to fortaz) specifically on boids. A vet that is current with the latest veterinary based herp literature is a good one to have!  :Sweeet: 

-adam

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

> There is a bunch of work currently being done with 3rd gen cephalosporins (similar to fortaz) specifically on boids. A vet that is current with the latest veterinary based herp literature is a good one to have! 
> 
> -adam


that is cool there is a lot more study going into these animals that we all love. 

there are soooo many home made remadies for these snakes because most people take them to vets and the vet has no clue. 
Adam did you hear about the guy who treated mought rot with 50/50 mix of water and listerine? it was one of the large retic guys. i guess it worked great. just like at the top of the page i saw some one took there snake to the vet and he gave them iodine. LOL that is a over the counter liquid. i would hate if the vet charged them more than a few bucks for that info.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> that is cool there is a lot more study going into these animals that we all love.


There is a ton of work being done ... even just 15 years ago (I'm really feeling old now) there were almost ZERO herp based vets that the average hobbyist could count on ... every year we go forward it gets better and better.

The listerine thing is an OLD SCHOOL remedy from the 70's and 80's ... If you talk to some of the pioneers of this hobby, you'd be amazed at some of the things that they used to do because people just really didn't have a clue about how to keep these animals alive in captivity, let alone healthy ... Today, we know so much more. We have proof that there are better ways to effectively cure stomatitis and I would hope that people take advantage of that knowledge ... I know a lot of the "old school" herpers will never change their ways, but I like to think of myself as part of a new generation that is more based in science than trial and error.

As far as vets with crazy diagnosis and reading books in their office while you wait in the exam room and over charging ... that's why I always say that it's important to INTERVIEW your vet before you bring an animal that you love to them ... Ask them what their experience is ... how many herps they see on a routine basis ... what periodicals about herp medicine to they subscribe to and read regularly. Just like everything else, for every bad vet there is a great one out there too ... I know a bunch and their knowledge has helped me more than I can express in words over that last 10 years.

-adam

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## Sparky1

> I think its kind of funny how Matt is asked to share the information by a mod, and then gets jumped on by a mod for posting it minutes later.
> 
> You wonder why people take information to PM's now......


You know i was wondering the same as you, i ended up reading through this entire post just so i could see if they would ever stop bashing him for what another mod asked for! I also noticed that as soon as Adam chimed in there bashing ended, wierd.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> You know i was wondering the same as you, i ended up reading through this entire post just so i could see if they would ever stop bashing him for what another mod asked for! I also noticed that as soon as Adam chimed in there bashing ended, wierd.


Not sure what I had to do with anything ... I was only trying to be helpful.

-adam

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## Brimstone111888

> You know i was wondering the same as you, i ended up reading through this entire post just so i could see if they would ever stop bashing him for what another mod asked for! I also noticed that as soon as Adam chimed in there bashing ended, wierd.




Kinda funny, looks a like a few people have a grudge. Matt suggests something gets attacked, Adam says its viable, and it abruptly ends.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

LOL. looks like you guys have 20/20 eye sight.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

adam you did nothing wrong. you posted good information. and i cant wait to see what your vet says

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## Adam_Wysocki

> Adam says its viable


You're misunderstood ... That's not what I said at all ... I am in no way endorsing Tylan for treating RI in ball pythons ... from everything I've read, Tylan is used for treating gram positive infections while it's pretty common knowledge that the majority of URI's in ball pythons are gram negative ... personally, I would never try it but I'm certainly willing to ask a qualified vet about it.

That said, I only work with Ball Pythons and I would never pretend to have any kind of knowledge about what does and doesn't work in other species.

After working with ball pythons for a very very long time ... I know one thing for sure ... If your snake is sick ... take it to an experienced reptile vet ... a culture to identify the bacteria responsible for the infection along with a full course of anti-biotics that is scientifically proven to be effective in killing that bacteria is the safest and best way for treating your snake. I'm confounded as to why anyone would want to risk the health and/or life of their animal by trying anything else.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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## Brimstone111888

> You're misunderstood ... That's not what I said at all ... I am in no way endorsing Tylan for treating RI in ball pythons ... from everything I've read, Tylan is used for treating gram positive infections while it's pretty common knowledge that the majority of URI's in ball pythons are gram negative ... personally, I would never try it but I'm certainly willing to ask a qualified vet about it.



I'm sorry I misquoted you. I'm glad you are open to the idea of it. Many others thought it was blasphemy. When you get the information please post it :Good Job:

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## Adam_Wysocki

> I'm sorry I misquoted you. I'm glad you are open to the idea of it. Many others thought it was blasphemy. When you get the information please post it


I think blasphemy might be a little strong, but I think anytime someone without a background in reptile medicine gets on a forum that has members with such a diverse level of experience and starts giving out medical advice (or hinting that they should be contacted in private for medical advice) it's reasonable to be concerned and to question that persons experience and motives ... no matter who they are ... Matt, Adam, or whoever.

There is so much of the "telephone game" (you know, heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend etc etc) that occurs on the internet and so much bad information (i once read a post about feeding crickets to ball pythons) that when it comes to advice that could lead someone to a decision that might effect the health and maybe even life of their animal that a little scrutiny isn't a bad thing in my opinion. 

I get tons of emails, phone calls, and PM's every month from people describing symptoms of their sick ball pythons and I'm never comfortable giving any kind of medical advice and generally don't do that ... because without seeing the animal in person I really can't know for sure what's wrong and me giving out the wrong advice could lead to the death of that animal ... and that is something that I couldn't live with. 

Hope this helps.

-adam

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## Laooda

This has been a very informative thread to follow.  *knock on wood* I have not had any type of RI to date... but while we're scratching the surface, don't snakes get sick from both bacterial and viral elements?  And what are the differences?  And if so, are the same meds used for the bacterial illnesses as they are for viral?  Sorry for the hi-jack!  :Embarassed:

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## Cameron15

This is exactly why after registering here one year ago, this was my first post and will be my last. I never posted on this forum to avoid all the fighting and it got to the point where I just stopped visiting. I decided to check it out once again after getting a baby Ball python this week. I thought I would post on this thread after reading Matt's post on Tylan and seeing that I used it with success on my boa. Whether it's the best medicine or not, or who said she said, or what it's good for. It worked for me and I am thankful. 

I will not post again in this forum and not even visit as it's not for me. It's a shame that all this bickering and mod abuse ruins it for us trying to enjoy a community

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## Laooda

I just wanted to know the difference between viral and bacterial illness!  :Surprised: 

Edit: Sorry... coffee is super strong this morning...

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## MeMe

> I just wanted to know the difference between viral and bacterial illness!




 :ROFL:

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## Rapture

Viral infections can be treatable but not curable, bacterial infections can be cured....  :Razz:

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## 8b8ll

http://www.brasherreptiles.com/Pharmaceuticals.htm

A Great link IMO. 

Thought I should post this up....I should have posted it up earlier. Although it doesn't apply directly to ball pythons its a pretty good read.


Mike

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## SatanicIntention

He's pretty wrong on drug administration(Baytril is given IM, not SQ), as well as what Baytril is good for. It will not treat Pseudomonas infections(Amikacin and Fortaz will). 

He's also not correct on the amikacin dosage, it's 5mg/kg the first dose and 2.5mg/kg every subsequent dose q72h. It is different in other types of reptiles though. 

Also, trimethoprim sulfamethoxazole(Bactrim) is a good antibiotic, but must be given orally as the injectable is on a LONG back-order.

He needs to update that website!

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## MelissaFlipski

I can't wade through all this right now, but... ahem...



> Please share this information with us...after all, this is a site for people to learn, right?  I don't see a good reason why useful information should only be exchanged in a PM





> RI - antibiotics and... 01-08-2008 06:31 AM JLC You are NOT a vet and should NOT be attempting to use our site to hand out ANY sort of "medical" advice, much less prescribing "medicines". -- JLC





> Dude....that's not censorship.  That's me expressing my opinion.  (and for anyone who hasn't guessed it...that's a quote from a neg rep comment I left)  Censorship would be me deleting the post. 
> 
> That original post you made about this subject makes you sound like some shadowy guy standing in an alley with snakeoil hidden under your trench coat that will "cure anything"... 
> 
> For what it's worth, I was about to pos rep your follow-up post because it included REAL information that anyone who wished could then ask their vet about.  And then this lovely post followed on its heels.  I don't have a problem with giving people all the information on something and letting them make their own choices....but this "psssssssst....I have a secret cure if you want to speak privately where no one else can see it"....not gonna fly with me.





> I think its kind of funny how Matt is asked to share the information by a mod, and then gets jumped on by a mod for posting it minutes later.
> 
> You wonder why people take information to PM's now......


Does seem unfair that Nathan asked for it, then Matt got hit with a neg rep for obliging.  Matt did include disclaimers, such as, "take to a vet," etc.  What a mess.  Can we petition for removal of that neg rep?





> This is exactly why after registering here one year ago, this was my first post and will be my last. I never posted on this forum to avoid all the fighting and it got to the point where I just stopped visiting. I decided to check it out once again after getting a baby Ball python this week. I thought I would post on this thread after reading Matt's post on Tylan and seeing that I used it with success on my boa. Whether it's the best medicine or not, or who said she said, or what it's good for. It worked for me and I am thankful. 
> 
> I will not post again in this forum and not even visit as it's not for me. It's a shame that all this bickering and mod abuse ruins it for us trying to enjoy a community


What a shame.  Don't give up already.

OK, now for my story.  Our '06 BP got an URI.  We did Baytril and Fortraz shots (we also used SEAVS, but saw Dr. Crum).  The pops did not go away, she was having a bad shed, looked bloated - what a mess.  So then they prescribed (over the phone - how nice to not make the trip on New Year's Eve!) Zithromax.  We gave oral doses for 10 days, helped with shed, gave her my famous "colon" massage (she needed to do a big one and probably had gas, too), and now she is mint!

My only question is, and maybe you can speak to this Adam since you use them, too:  *Dr. Crum said not to feed her until after the antibiotics in order to protect her kidneys.  Does this sound right?*  She was 226 grams (a week after eating) at the vet and 212 grams after her first meal after the 1st round of antibiotics.  So she lost weight.  We were worried and gave her another mouse 5 days later.  But maybe that was too much for her (thus the bloating?).

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## JLC

> Does seem unfair that Nathan asked for it, then Matt got hit with a neg rep for obliging.  Matt did include disclaimers, such as, "take to a vet," etc.  What a mess.  Can we petition for removal of that neg rep?


Just to be perfectly clear about something...Matt got a neg rep from me for THIS post: (#5)




> hi
> i have only had a few ri's in the last few years. all were a result of shipping. i use a product to treat this that is a general antibiotic. i have had 100% success rate with this. a lot of the stuff that a vet will give you will leave scars on your snake. if you would like to know any more about what i use pm me. and we can talk about it.


At that point, there was no other information offered...no disclaimer about the wisdom of seeking a vet's advice (it even seems to imply that you _shouldn't_ listen to a vet because they will scar your snake)...just something that looked very shady and potentially dangerous to a new person who might not know any better.  AFTER that...Nate requested that Matt share his information freely....which Matt did...and that was perfectly fine.  I even said so in this thread.  It sparked a very interesting and educational discussion and I have no problem with that whatsoever.   Maybe when you have more time, you might go back and reread the first half of this thread again.  :Wink:   I'll stand behind that negative rep though...because that (post #5) is no way to dispense medical advice on this site.

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## MelissaFlipski

> Just to be perfectly clear about something...Matt got a neg rep from me for THIS post: (#5)
> 
> At that point, there was no other information offered...no disclaimer about the wisdom of seeking a vet's advice (it even seems to imply that you _shouldn't_ listen to a vet because they will scar your snake)...just something that looked very shady and potentially dangerous to a new person who might not know any better.  AFTER that...Nate requested that Matt share his information freely....which Matt did...and that was perfectly fine.  I even said so in this thread.  It sparked a very interesting and educational discussion and I have no problem with that whatsoever.   Maybe when you have more time, you might go back and reread the first half of this thread again.   I'll stand behind that negative rep though...because that (post #5) is no way to dispense medical advice on this site.


My confusion lay in the fact that this message (and Matt's about the neg rep point) came after the post with additional information.  But now, I see, that you were just following-up to Matt's post about the neg rep after the fact.  Thanks for clarifying.  I hope my gibberish didn't confuse things more.

You original post:



> Dude....that's not censorship.  That's me expressing my opinion.  (and for anyone who hasn't guessed it...that's a quote from a neg rep comment I left)  Censorship would be me deleting the post. 
> 
> That original post you made about this subject makes you sound like some shadowy guy standing in an alley with snakeoil hidden under your trench coat that will "cure anything"... 
> 
> For what it's worth, I was about to pos rep your follow-up post because it included REAL information that anyone who wished could then ask their vet about.  And then this lovely post followed on its heels.  I don't have a problem with giving people all the information on something and letting them make their own choices....but this "psssssssst....I have a secret cure if you want to speak privately where no one else can see it"....not gonna fly with me.


Did you end up giving him the pos rep for the information, too?  Or did you decide against it?  I guess if you want to tell me it's none of my business - it is.  So that is alright, too.  Just wondering.

Sorry for the hijack.

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## MeMe

> Did you end up giving him the pos rep for the information, too?  Or did you decide against it?  I guess if you want to tell me it's none of my business - it is.  So that is alright, too.  Just wondering.
> 
> Sorry for the hijack.



I don't think that asking about someone else giving rep points is proper "reputation points etiquitte". 

just sayin' 

 :Embarassed:

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## littleindiangirl

> I don't think that asking about someone else giving rep points is proper "reputation points etiquitte". 
> 
> just sayin'


Right, good point.

Melissa, I dont know that rep points are a subject to talk about unless you are an admin deciding what to do about negative ones. To quotes memes, just sayin.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

just to answer the question no the neg rep was not given back. nor do i want it back. i was just simply trying to help out someone. you cant plese everyone all the time. but the person who needed the help got the message that i was trying to give them. that is all i care.

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## MelissaFlipski

Yeah, you guys are right.  The only reason I asked is b/c she publicly said she gave neg rep point then was "going to give" a pos rep point.

I didn't mean if you gave one neg rep back.

Thanks.

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## MeMe

> That original post you made about this subject makes you sound like some shadowy guy standing in an alley with snakeoil hidden under your trench coat that will "cure anything"... 
> 
> For what it's worth, *I was about to pos rep* your follow-up post because it included REAL information that anyone who wished could then ask their vet about.  And then this lovely post followed on its heels.  I don't have a problem with giving people all the information on something and letting them make their own choices....but this "psssssssst....I have a secret cure if you want to speak privately where no one else can see it"....not gonna fly with me.





> Yeah, you guys are right.  The only reason I asked is b/c she publicly said she gave neg rep point then was "*going to give*" a pos rep point.
> 
> I didn't mean if you gave one neg rep back.
> 
> Thanks.



Maybe you should *re-read* her post.

She never said she was "*going to give*" him anything.

It is _absolutely_ none of your business or anyone elses business who gives or gets rep points and for what reason.

just sayin'


and further more....Fisher publicly posted his neg rep before Judy said anything about it.

----------


## MATT FISHER REPTILES

:


> Fisher publicly posted his neg rep before Judy said anything about it.


ok first if you want to call me by last name you can just call me Fish. that is what most do. or simply Matt :Smile:  :Wink:  :Razz: 



about the neg rep. no crap i posted it before she said anything. most people dont post that they gave out neg rep points. i posted that she did to show how funny it is that 1 mod neg reped me for it and the other asked me to share more info. 

so on.
i am just relly glad that i got negative repd for saying that baytril dosnt work 100% of the time and tylan works good for me and others. well we all know what happend to the snake. i think we all need to be a little more open to others experiences. and not just shoot it down because it is a view different than your own. as judy said last night this site is a friendly place where all can feal at home and post different opinions. ( oh wait i posted my opinion and got a neg rep so i guess that was a load of crap) :ROFL:  
 :sploosh:  :ROFL: 

 :Tears: i am not happy that the snake is dead. i just think it is a shame that we all could not be open minded to alternative cures. :Please:

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## Brimstone111888

> For what it's worth, I was about to pos rep your follow-up post because it included REAL information that anyone who wished could then ask their vet about. And then this lovely post followed on its heels. I don't have a problem with giving people all the information on something and letting them make their own choices....*but this "psssssssst....I have a secret cure if you want to speak privately where no one else can see it"....not gonna fly with me.*


Let me get this straight. He isn't allowed to send the information via PM, because it is super secretive? On the other hand he posts it and gets neg repped right away.

Sounds like a neg rep was going his way either way.

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## MelissaFlipski

Let's everyone take a deep breath here.

Judy neg repped him for the pm offer, not for the info.  That already got cleared up.

And excuse me for putting quotes around a paraphrase.  My grammatical skills are off today.

OK, another deep breath.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

wich in no way is it against the rules / tos to ask someone to use a pm you for more info.

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## dr del

Hi,

I'm sorry but I can't allow this to stand unanswered.




> about the neg rep. no crap i posted it before she said anything. most people dont post that they gave out neg rep points.


Also most people who feel they have been given one unfairly do not immediately post about it in the public forums but choose to follow the  established and well publicised appeal procedure.

Have you lodged an official complaint or even privately asked for anyone to look into this aside from just posting in the wrong section giving incorrect information? In case you can't remember the answer is no.

The correct place for this discussion is here in the Quarantine room. Anyone who does not have access and wishes it should contact any of the admin staff.




> i posted that she did to show how funny it is that 1 mod neg reped me for it and the other asked me to share more info.


If you had shared the information in the first place in an open manner then there would not have been a neg rep - as stated  already the neg rep was not for the information but for the way you went about trying to disseminate it.




> so on.
> i am just relly glad that i got negative repd for saying that baytril dosnt work 100% of the time and tylan works good for me and others.


You didn't and constantly repeating that you did will never change that fact.




> well we all know what happend to the snake. i think we all need to be a little more open to others experiences. and not just shoot it down because it is a view different than your own. as judy said last night this site is a friendly place where all can feal at home and post different opinions. ( oh wait i posted my opinion and got a neg rep so i guess that was a load of crap)


Again, no you didn't, it wasn't true the first time you said it and it will still not be true the hundredth time you say it.




> i am not happy that the snake is dead. i just think it is a shame that we all could not be open minded to alternative cures.


It is indeed a terrible thing that the animal didn't make it. :Sad: 

No one has acted against you for saying that under vetinary supervision other treatments may be as effective if not more so under certain circumstances. The only disagreement was how you initially chose to go about it.




> wich in no way is it against the rules / tos to ask someone to use a pm you for more info.


Which is why the post was not moderated in any way, shape or form - you got a *neg rep* which *any* member can give you if they disagree with something you have said or done.

However,

My main problem with all this is that it is dragging a perfectly innocent thread off topic when we have a stickied thread for precisely this sort of discussion that can be found here (for those who missed the link earlier  :Good Job:  )

If you feel the need to continue this discussion please use that thread.

For those who feel I may be being heavy handed in this matter please read this page paying particular attention to this paragraph;




> -- Complaints about Neg Reps -- A new thread will be started and stickied in the Quarantine Room.* If any member feels compelled to make a public statement about any reputation comment they have recieved, it must be made in this thread. Any such statements made in other threads, or new threads started for that purpose will be deleted without warning or notice.* This sort of public statement does NOT mean your complaint will recieve any staff attention. If you have a genuine concern about a rep comment you have recieved, you must address it in private with the staff.




dr del

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## KittyKatSuperStar

Wow, it's nice to see you all kept the focus of the post...or rather you didn't. Thanks for the people who gave me advice at the beginning though  :Smile:  As it happens my baby CP lost her battle against the RI, despite all my efforts.

But seriously guys, all the unneccesary bickering really isn't helpful to anyone and puts a lot of people, such as myself, off forums like this.

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## frankykeno

> Wow, it's nice to see you all kept the focus of the post...or rather you didn't. Thanks for the people who gave me advice at the beginning though  As it happens my baby CP lost her battle against the RI, despite all my efforts.
> 
> But seriously guys, all the unneccesary bickering really isn't helpful to anyone and puts a lot of people, such as myself, off forums like this.


I'm very sorry you lost your snake to this RI.  That is always a sad and frustrating situation to face.  

Please don't take what happened in this thread as a indication of the overall tone of this site.  I hope you will continue to enjoy BPNet for the generally wonderful place it is.  :Smile:

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## reptile3

I agree with frankykeno.. I just read what is important, & ignore the rest. Please do hope you stay around for awhile it's a great site. I am sorry to hear about your bp. 
my condolences.





> I'm very sorry you lost your snake to this RI.  That is always a sad and frustrating situation to face.  
> 
> Please don't take what happened in this thread as a indication of the overall tone of this site.  I hope you will continue to enjoy BPNet for the generally wonderful place it is.

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## MelissaFlipski

> Wow, it's nice to see you all kept the focus of the post...or rather you didn't. Thanks for the people who gave me advice at the beginning though  As it happens my baby CP lost her battle against the RI, despite all my efforts.
> 
> But seriously guys, all the unneccesary bickering really isn't helpful to anyone and puts a lot of people, such as myself, off forums like this.


Oh my!  I am so sorry!!  My sincerest condolences.  And I am sorry that I, too, was guilty for taking the thread off track.  I did offer my ideas on the RI.  I am saddened by your loss.

How is the other snake doing?

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## KittyKatSuperStar

> Oh my!  I am so sorry!!  My sincerest condolences.  And I am sorry that I, too, was guilty for taking the thread off track.  I did offer my ideas on the RI.  I am saddened by your loss.
> 
> How is the other snake doing?



Thanks  :Smile:  As you can imagine I was heartbroken! Pickle was by far my favourite, but I think she was too young and small to cope with the stress. 

The other CP is still okay. She still has fluid in the back of her throat but is moving around a lot more, which is a hopeful sign. I don't think the antibiotics has helped but I don't want to take her back to the vet as I KNOW she'll say she has IBD (because my baby died) and I know that it isn't IBD (my vet is obsessed with IBD and apparently tells everyone their reptiles have it, probably because the biopsies cost so much...) I'm going to try and feed her tonight and hope for the best.

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## MelissaFlipski

> Thanks  As you can imagine I was heartbroken! Pickle was by far my favourite, but I think she was too young and small to cope with the stress. 
> 
> The other CP is still okay. She still has fluid in the back of her throat but is moving around a lot more, which is a hopeful sign. I don't think the antibiotics has helped but I don't want to take her back to the vet as I KNOW she'll say she has IBD (because my baby died) and I know that it isn't IBD (my vet is obsessed with IBD and apparently tells everyone their reptiles have it, probably because the biopsies cost so much...) I'm going to try and feed her tonight and hope for the best.


I totally understand your fear of hearing about IBD.  IMHO, I would go back anyway and try another course of antibiotics if you think she is still sick.  Try another med.  OR, find a new herp vet that has a great rep.  I was so thankful that ours prescribed Zithromax (oral is easier than I thought with four hands - if you need tips, let me know).  That is what finally kicked it in the butt.

Good luck.  I will be sending healing thoughts your way.  Again, I am SO sorry about your other snake.  I don't know what I would do if one of mine died.  Hang in there!   :Hug:

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## bearhart

My condolances.   :Sad: 

Here are my suggestions and thoughts on your situation:

1) For any illness, do your own research on causes and treatment.  Unless its something very minor, you should leave treatment up to the vet.  This issue is the source of many heated exchanges on this forum.  There is one catch, however, that is often overlooked.  We may not be the specialist, but we are the managers of our pet's care.  We are the ones who decide to go to the vet in the first place.  We are the ones who decide whether or not to follow his recommendations.  We are the ones who must determine if its time to find a new vet.  

So, I think you did the right thing by getting on here and asking questions. I encourage you to further educate yourself on these issues.  Don't just rely on forums and friends - there are plenty of sources of proper veterinary knowledge on the web.  Not only will this make you more effective in your role in treating your pet, but it will also increase your ability to recognize symptoms early thus improving your pets prognosis.

I want to also encourage everybody to be careful when preaching on the sanctity of veterinary advice.  As I mentioned above, the keeper is the one with the ultimate decision-making responsibility.  Also, vets can kill your pet too especially with exotics.  So, crapping on people that give care advice is a double-edged sword.  Stifling bad advice helps.  Stifling good advice hurts.  For example, there are senior members here that encouraged me to override my vet's advice when my BP got an RI.  There were not vets but, ultimately, I followed their recommendations and everything turned out well.

2) Find a new vet.  I wasn't able to determine the exact course of treatment that your vet recommended but it doesn't sound like it was very good.  From my experience, the standard procedure for RI is:
  a) Immediately begin a course of a broad-spectrum antibiotic such as Baytril.  This part is the vet playing the odds that here is a high probability of success.  The motiviation is that tests take time, during which the animals health will continue to degenerate.
   b) Immediately take the appropriate sample (mucous, blood, faeces, etc) from the animal and order a "bacteria culture and sensitivity test" in order to determine the exact nature of the infection and which antibiotics will be truly effective.
   c) Schedule a new appointment at the time the tests return. At that point, if the animal is getting better and the tests do not show any bacteria that are resistant to the initial antibiotic then its simply a matter of finishing the current course of antibiotics.  If the animal is not getting better and/or the tests show resistant bacteria, then a change in treatment will likely be recommended.
   d) (good vets) Provide husbandry information and/or recommend temporary and/or permanent changes.

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## MelissaFlipski

I was thinking about this more.  You could also order a necropsy to see if there is more to know.

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## bearhart

good point!  How much does a necropsy cost usually?

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## snakeg

> Hi there! I'm new to the forum and unfortunatly my two carpet pythons have both got respiratory infections. 
> 
> I took them to the vet on Friday and she gave them antibiotics and after taking them back today, she said that my 3yr old CP had gained a bit of weight whilst my baby had lost a tiny bit more but felt that they were still in the same condition as before the weekend.
> I've heard from a lot of other snake owners that antibiotics often hasn't worked for them and wondered what the general opinion between other owners was. Also, for those who have used antibiotics how long did it take for the RI to clear up? I'm really, really worried about them so any advice is more than welcome (obviously I have also raised temperatures etc). 
> 
> Thanks!





what antibiotic was it. i have had great sucess treating ball pythons with ceftazidime. baytril is similar to cipro which is given to humans. its very harsh but kills both gram positive and negative.

does anyone have experience with injection anti paracitics?

also i have noticed that snakes eat better after given the ceftazidime.

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## snakeg

The tylosin (which I am assuming is tylan 200) is more specific to killing gram positive bacteria. Most of snake infections are caused by gram negative bacteria. Baytril can take care of both, but It is harsh and can lead to scaring. I personally like ceftazidime (fotaz) it always worked for me anytime I have had problems. I have heard of combining the two baytril and ceftazidime. The trick is to catch it early then it's going to be much easier on you and the snake. I like knowing about the tylan 200, I have never heard of it. 

This is the website I use whenever I have a problem in combination with the advise of my vet, who's a bird vet. 

http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html

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## floydswife.2018

> hi
> i have only had a few ri's in the last few years. all were a result of shipping. i use a product to treat this that is a general antibiotic. i have had 100% success rate with this. a lot of the stuff that a vet will give you will leave scars on your snake. if you would like to know any more about what i use pm me. and we can talk about it.

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## Craiga 01453

This thread is six and a half years old...

Start a new thread

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> This thread is six and a half years old...
> 
> Start a new thread


Actually 11 years old  :Wink:

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Craiga 01453 (02-26-2019)

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