# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics >  NERD Lemon vs Graziani Pastel

## Kennyxemerson

Which are you a fan of?
I just thought this would be interesting to see :]

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## Seneschal

Now as a general rule I like any pastel if it holds its color, has bright yellows and crisp definition between black and yellow, and little browning out. Graziani is, I would say, my least favorite line, because I don't like how orange they are and they don't have enough definition for my taste, and in pastels I don't value blushing as much as most. Lemons are nice when they get older but seem to be a bit on the ugly side at a young age. Blondes just look good. Bell could go either way...


Yeah, I'm into anything that looks great and holds its color. 

Or mixture of the lines...interbreeding pastel lines for a certain trait that is. I think doing that will end up producing a better looking pastel all around eventually. 

This was worded strangely but it's early!

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## Kennyxemerson

> Now as a general rule I like any pastel if it holds its color, has bright yellows and crisp definition between black and yellow, and little browning out. Graziani is, I would say, my least favorite line, because I don't like how orange they are and they don't have enough definition for my taste, and in pastels I don't value blushing as much as most. Lemons are nice when they get older but seem to be a bit on the ugly side at a young age. Blondes just look good. Bell could go either way...
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm into anything that looks great and holds its color. 
> 
> Or mixture of the lines...interbreeding pastel lines for a certain trait that is. I think doing that will end up producing a better looking pastel all around eventually. 
> 
> This was worded strangely but it's early!


yeah I can't decide which pastel I like better haha
i'd like to see what selective breeding of good lemons and Graziani pastels would look like down the road.

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## rabernet

Since I have a lemon, that's my preference. I also love the blondes. However, there are exceptional examples of Graziani's out there as well that I like too. 


Here's why I love lemons!

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## Kennyxemerson

> Since I have a lemon, that's my preference. I also love the blondes. However, there are exceptional examples of Graziani's out there as well that I like too. 
> 
> 
> Here's why I love lemons!



 :Surprised:  good reason!

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## rabernet

As for selective breeding, I'm considering pairing him with this girl next year (she's still too young this year). I'd really like to see the babies from this pairing.

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## Kennyxemerson

> As for selective breeding, I'm considering pairing him with this girl next year (she's still too young this year). I'd really like to see the babies from this pairing.


I'd really like to own a baby from that pairing haha

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rareballer (06-20-2010)

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## juddb

Enchi cause they are the bizomb.

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## Kennyxemerson

> Enchi cause they are the bizomb.


isn't the enchi pastel a combo morph?
I thought the enchi was it's own morph..

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## Laooda

> As for selective breeding, I'm considering pairing him with this girl next year (she's still too young this year). *I'd really like to send Laura the babies from this pairing.* 
> 
> 
> Wow Robin!   If you insist.....

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## Kara

> Enchi cause they are the bizomb.


I would venture to say that Enchi is not an allele of the Pastel Jungle.  We have pretty good proof of this now, and this upcoming season will further confirm what we've already seen from crossing Enchis to Pastels.

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## rabernet

Haha! You're funny Laura! 

I think that Mackenzie's first breeding is the most anticipated breeding out of my collection!  :Razz:  I've already got a waiting list for her babies and I don't even know if she's genetic yet!

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## Bright202

How much do lemon pastels go for now a days? I'm still curious on what I want to get for a bigger collection..

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## mricyfire

I would say Lemons...but only with tons of blushing...

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> I'd really like to own a baby from that pairing haha


 Get in line  :Wink:  

For me it is a matter of individual rather than a specific line, if one has the qualities I am looking for than I will pick him regardless of the line.

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## WingedWolfPsion

I like the lemons more than the Grazianis, BUT...I would prefer something in between!  Clean and bright like the lemons, but with more orange.  (Must be why I like honeybees).

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## Bright202

> Since I have a lemon, that's my preference. I also love the blondes. However, there are exceptional examples of Graziani's out there as well that I like too. 
> 
> 
> Here's why I love lemons!


I WANT   :Very Happy:

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## Spaniard

Personally, I love Lemons!

Not to steal Winston's thunder, but just because I think he's another good example of a lemon, here is my picture of my lemon Lustro. About a year old in this picture.



And his future Wifey- Robin likes them reduced, I like em crazy  :Rolleyes2:

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## rabernet

Hey, you're not stealing any thunder at all! Lustro is a HOT boy, I've always loved him! Yet another reason I love lemons!  :Very Happy:

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## Spaniard

> Hey, you're not stealing any thunder at all! Lustro is a HOT boy, I've always loved him! Yet another reason I love lemons!


They sure make nice bees  :Spider:  Thanks Robin

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## ctrlfreq

While I absolutely love my little Graziani girl, I have to go with the NERD lemon.

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## jhall1468

I like morphs  :Very Happy: ... really, I don't have a preference. At the end of the day a really pretty Graziani is going to beat a browned out Lemon any day of the week. That works both ways. But I think it's hard to pick one, since Graz's are known for their blushing, while Lemons are known for their bright yellow color. I think there are a lot of these comparisons that are about the animal more than the line. I think this gets asked a lot about similar morphs and I just can't pick a "line" because I've seen some amazing snakes from both lines.

Buy the snake, not the line  :Wink: .

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## Purrrfect9

> Buy the snake, not the line .


I completely agree. I tend to favor blushing more than the crisp clean lines when it comes to pastels and normals, and since the Graziani line tends to have more blushing than the other, that is what I ended up buying. My male just turned a year old, and he really hasn't faded much, and he gets more blushing as he gets older.

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## RegiusCo

Each lineage has its share of beauties and uglies. Problem is most breeders in the past just simply bred any ready females to their Pastels instead of selectively breeding to refine the look. 

Here is our 2004 F3 Graziani male! I prefer blushing on my Pastels   :Very Happy:  
 

Marc

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## MATTI

Lemon Pastel:



Like RegiusCo.. says, you have ugly and very nice pastels in the same 'line'.
I like pastels with high yellow amount and blushes.

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## Holbeird

I agree with by the line, not the snake, although I see alot of bells that are very pretty and seem to hold their color with age, then again there's the opposite of that as well. I think alot of it also has to do with who the other parent is. If it comes to graziani vs lemon, I dunno. I love the lemons bright yellow and black, but I love the blushing on graziani's. (especially your's marc, love that LONG blush!) But I voted other because A. I believe you buy by the snake, not the line, and B. because If I was going to have to go on a line, I think personally I'd vote bell just from my personal experience.

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## Sputnik

One thing that needs to be taken into consideration is the number of graziani pastels that have been produced in comparison to the other lines. 

What is fair, is to line up the best examples of a Graziani against the  best examples of Lemon or for that matter, any other pastel line. 

What is not fair is when you see people compare their best looking pastel up against the worst example of another line. Usually for sales reasons! 

We see so many browned out dirty looking Graziani's that our perception becomes blurred with the belief that Graziani is the least desired line. 

People have mass produced this line, you usually don't sell the best looking ones produced and there have been a great number of browned out dark (Can hardly tell it's a pastel) used to produce even more. 

I say, get the line/s that catch your eye, or get the best examples of all the lines and have them all. 

Which is my gaol, I have blonde, Graziani, Bell, Rupple (Stone washed). I have few more to get, but getting there...LOL 

That's my 1.7c view on pastels....  :Smile:

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## PythonChick

I voted lemon, because I like the bright contrast the most, though I love the blushing as well.  My lemon has been slowly developing a bit more blushing with each shed, so here is to hoping this is a trend that continues.  :Please:  I have seen examples of every line that are goregeous though, so I agree that it depends on the animal.

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## royalpython

I have neither  :Smile: 

I voted graziani.

I've see more better examples of graziani's line than the lemon line. Obviously, the best examples of both are amazing though.

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## Ginevive

For me, it depends on the individual snake, not the line. A friend of mine has a lemon whom I do not think of as attractive as my Graz. There are lemons out there that I think are much hotter than my Graz, as well as Graz's out there that top other lemons in my opinion. It is a matter of opinion  :Smile:

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_h4y4sh1_ (04-02-2009)

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## mikedahitman87

> Each lineage has its share of beauties and uglies. Problem is most breeders in the past just simply bred any ready females to their Pastels instead of selectively breeding to refine the look.


I definitely agree with this. Pastels that are from pastelxnormal pairings tend to not look as nice. My new pastel (pretty sure it is a lemon) had father that was a spider, which probably affected her back pattern. I have also seen some nice grazianis. IMO the graz. pastel hypo looks better than the lemon version. The blushings look amazing.

Also it depends on what you are in the market for. I wanted something that was really bright and little blushings to go with my Mojave. . . . .I LOVE PASTAVES!

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## Beardedragon

Like always, I go for quality and not name. Granted you mainly will get your quality from one of these lines, but My old Bell line pastel from the dixie reptile show got better with sheds, not browner.

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## bonheki

I like both!

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## bonheki

:Very Happy:  :Good Job: I like both!

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## Crazydude

The day they have a Lemon Color, No browning, and a Crazy Patern, Ill buy it. 

Its all what the person likes. 

Me i just am going out of the norm here, I have a Male RC reptiles Line Pastel. Im not going to love RC reptiles line because i have one, I love my snake for all it comes with, Not the line it came from. Thats really what i judge a snake buy. The snake, not the line or genetics. 



Anyway, Thats the best picture i could get of him to show all his colors. He is starting to Brown out already as you can see, in general its a little more visable then that pic (320g, 6 months), But I love him for his patern and personality. 

With pastels For me its Patern and Color. I love the crazy jungle patern in most pastels. I dont really like blushing as much. I do like flames, and i love super pastels, but browning is not my main ideal. Id take a pure black/yellow snake over a blushed out one any day.

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## starmom

> Haha! You're funny Laura! 
> 
> I think that Mackenzie's first breeding is the most anticipated breeding out of my collection!  I've already got a waiting list for her babies and I don't even know if she's genetic yet!


Well, I don't know Robin....MacKenzie...McKinsey....MacKenzie...McKinsey...
Thinking what I'm thinking???  :Wink:

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## Schlyne

It's all about the individual snake to me I guess. I expected that my male pastel would brown out a little, but I loved his pattern. I love both of my pastels, even if they are not the brightest in the bunch.

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## carlo

I like the lemon's a bit more but only because they make awesome supers but to make bees jou can better use graziani .
Just my opion .
gr carlo

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## gcanibe

What kind of pastels are this ones:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...-Jun-08-1B.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...-Jun-08-1B.jpg

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## drew5337

I just got a blonde locally, but lemons are what turned me on to pastels in the first place.  My little guy is really pretty, and I've got a normal girl thats pretty gold/yellow for him to breed to when they are big enough.  My other normal female looks so much like a mojave that I'm going to get a mojave male to breed to her.  I'm pretty sure she is a mojave sib anyway.  I need to post some pics of my snakes....

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## rabernet

So, I posted Winston last year - a lemon pastel - and I wasn't disappointed with the two pastels he threw last season - even more reason why I love lemons!

Male - Frankykeno's boy, Finn - who will be shipping to her soon - photo courtesy of Matt - Beardedragon:


Female - Libra - holdback:

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_Beardedragon_ (06-09-2010)

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## SlitherinSisters

NERD, they really do keep their color better. My pastel male is a NERD and he keeps getting brighter with every shed, granted he's only about 7 months old, but every time he sheds I'm suprized to find him brighter than he started.

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## TheMolenater2

I must go with the NERD pastel. The really light yellow amazes me every time...

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## Jyson

I like them both. In my opinion, they both have equal flaws and strengths. For me when it comes down to it, I plan on getting both.

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## MATT FISHER REPTILES

i know i will catch heat for this. but does any one think they are the same thing. just diffrent levels. just like the mojo. lesser, butter.. at the end of the day if you can breed each and get a supers dosnt that provide the truth. keep in mind i dont want to start any trouble. i just think they are more grades of the same thing. like blonds are the A+ and lemons are As and grazi are A-. but keep in mind who was the first to have them. so you might have to give them the props.

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## ThyTempest

Honestly, I know Graziani has done a lot for the industry, but I really dont like any of his lines....especially pastels and cinnies.

I see your point on the bloodlines though, and I am not really sure.  I think the pastels have such a drastic color difference that the gene must be on different loci, and therefore not compatible.  As for the mojo, lesser and butter argument....I still have not heard a definitive answer from someone who tried to prove it out by crossing a lesserxbutter, or if so, if it is possible to have two separate morphs that are het for the same "super".  I think the mojo is entirely different, but that is just based on what I see, and I have no breeding records to prove it either way.

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## JAMills

> Honestly, I know Graziani has done a lot for the industry, but I really dont like any of his lines....especially pastels and cinnies.
> 
> I see your point on the bloodlines though, and I am not really sure.  I think the pastels have such a drastic color difference that the gene must be on different loci, and therefore not compatible.  As for the mojo, lesser and butter argument....I still have not heard a definitive answer from someone who tried to prove it out by crossing a lesserxbutter, or if so, if it is possible to have two separate morphs that are het for the same "super".  I think the mojo is entirely different, but that is just based on what I see, and I have no breeding records to prove it either way.


Actually I don't know If I am reading what you wrote correctly but. Lesser / Butter / Mojo  any combination of 2 of them ends in some form of Blue Eyed Lucy if I am not mistaken. That does not make them the same morph though. They just end up with slight variations of the same outcome.

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## iCandiBallPythons

Honestly I can go back and forth with pastel's. The ones I have seen for sale most dont really do it for me , I tend to see alot of variances , I see some NERD that I like and then I see some Graziani I like but the majority of them I wouldnt like enough to buy  I think the only one I have really flipped over is a couple that White diamond reptiles has and I think he's proved one of them  2 yrs now and she is roast your eyes bright.As to me I do like brighter the better so I'll just stick with the super pastels

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## sg1trogdor

> Each lineage has its share of beauties and uglies. Problem is most breeders in the past just simply bred any ready females to their Pastels instead of selectively breeding to refine the look. 
> 
> Here is our 2004 F3 Graziani male! I prefer blushing on my Pastels   
>  
> 
> Marc


Agreed Granted most grazianis fade and get that stone washed look but I love that.   :Smile: 

and heres my other pastel.

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## ogredawg19

Here's my Graz pastel line...

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## ThyTempest

I like the screamers and really dont like the washed out pastels, though I have not seen them in person.  I agree that White Diamond has produced some of the best pastels ever.<---Period

I like the first Graziani from the previous post, and I am surprised how well it has kept color.

As for the previous post about mojo/lesser/butter, I know they can all be crossed to produce Blue Lucy's, but I dont think there is a difference between lesser and butter, but that Mojo is a separate morph that happens to also carrie the gene on the same locus as the Butter/Lesser.

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## Wh00h0069

I have NERD, Graziani, and Bell line pastels. Personally, I like Bell line pastels best, then NERD second, and Graziani last. I like Bells the best because they have more pinks and oranges to them. NERD's are very yellow and black, and Graziani's are more brown with a lot of blushing.

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## butters!

i prefer graziani.


they have a sence of humor

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## Oxylepy

Constrictors Unlimited Lemon Pastel.

Why? They have more pictures, you can look at them online, and they are absolutely stunning. They're actually NERD Lemon Pastels, HOWEVER unlike NERD CU actually updates its site and has current price listings. You can see them when they are old enough to be sold, unlike NERD who almost never update their site and I'm assuming you have to contact them for anything. There is no real ability to window shop there and, well... I find it really annoying when I check their site.

CU's site and section on Lemons:

http://www.constrictors.com/Collecti...allPython.html

Also, they don't have any at the moment and I'm waiting for an email back about when they will be available. But man they are beautiful.

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## SamuraiZr0

holy cow the patterns on the girl you have are so clean and well defined nice nice nice

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## Hock3ymonk3y

> I would say Lemons...but only with tons of blushing...


100% agree! Thst is actually what i'm getting next at an expo

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## EmberBall

Supposedly, the Graziani line of Pastel should have a high level of blushing, and the black, more faded.  The Lemon line should have darker black, which might make for a nicer contrast with the yellow.

The Lemon Pastel, in my opinion, is a marketing strategy.  I really do not think they are any more or less desireable than any other Pastel.

The Enchi is not really a Pastel, at least not in the sense we are discussing here.

The only Pastel I would pay a premium for is a Stonewashed Ruppel Pastel.

If you are looking to buy, you are probably going to be dissapointed with 90% of the Pastels you would buy, as a baby, once it reaches adulthood.  My advice, buy a Ruppel, or buy a nice looking adult, since you know what it will continue to look like.  OR, your best bet, buy a Pastel cross...most are stunning....Sulfur, Vanilla, Fire crosses.

Dave

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## h4y4sh1

Can some one help me identify my pastel please? what line do you think he is?
Does he look like a graziani?

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## sum182

correct me if i'm wrong but isnt there just no way of telling unless the breeder tells you?

If wouldnt even know what to guess tho cause i'd say graziani from the blushing but lemon from the color...maybe just a non-faded graziani?

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## Freakie_frog

Heres the thing. The "lines" of pastels are merely animals that were line bred for a specific trate. To say that a Lemon can't have loads of blushing or that one from Greg's line can't be a screaming yellow snake isn't true. 

Unless you bought your animal from a breeder that is working with a direct line and breeding to maintain that lines looks then its not a NERD Line Lemon or a Bell Line or a Graziani Line.. It's just a pastel. 

That doesn't mean it isn't as good an animal as the "line" bred..it just means that the breeder bred a Pastel and you bought a pastel.

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## bloodpython_MA

Anyone ever seen New World Exotics "Yellow Jackets"?
Bottom of the page http://www.nextworldexotics.com/ballpythons.htm
Those are pretty bomb. 

and so are White diamon reptiles lemon pastels.

YouTube - Super Bright Lemon Pastel 2

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## wuldier

> Since I have a lemon, that's my preference. I also love the blondes. However, there are exceptional examples of Graziani's out there as well that I like too. 
> 
> 
> Here's why I love lemons!


that is retarded amounts of awesome!

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## rabernet

> that is retarded amounts of awesome!


LOL! If you liked that, here are some recent pictures of his daughter, that my friend Aaron took of her:

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## paulaura

I much prefer a high quality NERD lemon pastel.

There are some stunners on this thread too. :Cool:

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## RebelYell83

i have a blonde,but i am lookin at either a bell or a lemon as a 2nd line,as i love thier intense yellows

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## Bobsean

I had to vote for the Graziani. I'm just a sucka for blushing and a good Graziani pastel will have tons of it. They also have a subtle orange tinge to them which is another plus for me.

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## WingedWolfPsion

My personal opinion is...it depends on what you plan to mix it with.  ^_^
I would mix a Graziani with a cinnamon, but I would use a lemon to make a bumblebee.

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## fishboyUK

As far as i have seen they all have their good and bad examples and each individual animal must be judged on it's own appearance rather than what line it comes from  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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_seeya205_ (08-27-2010)

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## PassionsPythons

Here's a little video clip of my 1.0 Lemon Pastel (June '08) and my 0.1 Mark Bell Pastel (Jan '09). Personally I am a big fan of the Mark Bell line of Pastels. You can see why when you look at the video. The female in the video is getting close to 2 years in age, with no signs of browning out. Not trying to sound like a prick, but she's the best example of a pastel I've ever seen, especially one that's not a super.

YouTube - 0.1 Pastel as promised **Freshly Shed**

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## aureptiles

Zebra Pastel FTW!!!

http://www.roussisreptiles.com/colle...a_pastels.html

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## alan1

> Which are you a fan of?


i'm not a 'fan' of any particular line...
the higher yellow the pastel, the keener i am to buy

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## Wobbilly5

For me, I love the dark black and bright yellow contrast.  It makes for a very distinct looking pastel.  On the other hand, I have seen some very beautiful pastels that have a vibrant orange that is tough to overlook!

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> I had to vote for the Graziani. I'm just a sucka for blushing and a good Graziani pastel will have tons of it. They also have a subtle orange tinge to them which is another plus for me.


This is why I like the Graziani line. I have a male pastel (unsure of the line) which looks like a Graziani due to all the blushing and the color. I like how they have a very distinct line between the lower sides and the dorsal area where the 2 colors are very different. Creamy vanilla color on the lower sides and the orange/yellow on the top. They are usully not uniform at all and look two-toned. Lemons are very nice and I like that they hold their vived yellow so well but the contrast between colors on a Graziani ha always caught my eye..


~The amount of blushing and all the star shaped markings is why I love this guy  :Smile: 




~Then my Bee is a NERD line lemon.

~I like having alot of variety in my collection  :Smile:

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## Regal Pythons

I like the patterns on graziani pastels, seems to be only pastel with a pattern built in. Blonde x graziani would be awesome!

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## Crazy4Herps

Tough, but I'm going to have to go Graziani. I don't actually own a pastel, but from what I've seen it seems that Grazianis generally have more blushing and less contrast.

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## Eyeball

Im a big fan of the Ruppels and the blonde Lines but in truth i love them all. I have an exceptional original nerd line thats about 12 or 13 years old, That was before the lemon line was brought out and he is related to the graz line, he is very washed out  and very light. I also have an awesome lemon female who is of excellent color. Blushing, crisp yellows or stone washed lookin they all look awesome in my book!!!
         Thanks Eyeball :Cool:

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## NotaMallard

I'm into lemons. I just adore the contrast of yellow and dark black... although blushing is also something I love, it comes in second to the amount of yellow.

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## blackboa

I love the bright colour from my Lemon Pastel  :Smile:  and this girl is also my first ball  :Smile: .


I also like my Citrus Pastel and Extreme Citrus Pastel  :Smile: .


The blushing from some Graziani Pastels is great, but until now I have no Graziani in my collection.

Markus

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## joshj

this is my 1 year old vpi male  http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/y...3balls/181.jpg

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## don15681

I'm, into the true blonde line. I also have a bell pastel that's holding her color very well too. The Graziiani line is known for it's blushing, not a big fan of this line.

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## NomiGold

I voted other because I am not familiar enough with the lines to make an informed decision, though I'm sure whatever line any pastel I get belongs to will become my favourite.  :Razz:  I do, however, know what I like in a pastel: High blushing, bright yellow and clean.

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## seeya205

> Here's a little video clip of my 1.0 Lemon Pastel (June '08) and my 0.1 Mark Bell Pastel (Jan '09). Personally I am a big fan of the Mark Bell line of Pastels. You can see why when you look at the video. The female in the video is getting close to 2 years in age, with no signs of browning out. Not trying to sound like a prick, but she's the best example of a pastel I've ever seen, especially one that's not a super.
> 
> YouTube - 0.1 Pastel as promised **Freshly Shed**


You are a prick for having such an awesome female pastel!   :Wink:   She is as nice as a super!

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## I<3Dreamsicles

Whats the difference???

I like bright yellow and solid black, but I guess super pastels are better with more fading...

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