# Miscellaneous Herp Interests > Venomous Animals >  Why not rear-fanged colubrids?

## ride_gnu

I jsut saw it and tried looking online, why are discussion of these speicies band?  It's got me quite puzzled especially afer I have read that they are not very venemous, why the restrictions to discussion as well as owning im geussing?

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## RoyalGuardian

I wondered that too!

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## Patrick Long

its becuase not a lot of research has been done on specific species. The venom is more toxic to certain people, just like bees.


I have a FWC and this gets brought up a lot. Its something that people dont know about, so they feel threatened by it.

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## RoyalGuardian

> its becuase not a lot of research has been done on specific species. The venom is more toxic to certain people, just like bees.
> 
> 
> I have a FWC and this gets brought up a lot. Its something that people dont know about, so they feel threatened by it.


Like most people and snakes in general.... *sigh*

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## anendeloflorien

I'm kind of confused by the subject line here? I mean I understand what he is asking but "Why not rear-fanged colubrids" doesn't make much sense to me....... 

*sigh* in response to what I think is the question it is because (as Pat and RG already stated) people just do not understand what they are talking about. They hear the word "FANG" and they immediately think of a freakin rattlesnake lunging. What I would do is take a couple of puppy dog tame hognoses in to these dang legislators have them pass them around and then tell them that they are supposedly a rear-fanged snake. 
The only thing I've ever heard of happening when someone was bitten by a rear-fanged colubrid was some swelling of the general area and some redness. It takes so much just for them to get their fangs engaged! They have to walk with their front teeth for a while before they can get their rear-fangs in. IDK just my opinion but people fear what they do not know.

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## FloridaHogs

Because legislators tend to be idiots that do not do any reaserch at all (especially in FL)

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## ride_gnu

Well that asnweers my questions.  Are these snake generally more poisonous than most, or just have lack of reasearch?  Up here in Canada most anything goes eh.  lol.

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## anendeloflorien

> Well that asnweers my questions.  Are these snake generally more poisonous than most, or just have lack of reasearch?  Up here in Canada most anything goes eh.  lol.


Lol I'm really gonna try not to sound like an arse here but technically there are no (as far as I know please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong lol) "poisonous" snakes, they can be "venomous" I.E. they inject a toxin but not "poisonous".

Ok sorry just had to get that out of the way. As far as them being more _venomous_ than other snakes, not a chance. Not any of the snakes that are kept regularly here in the US. 

Little fun side note, the boomslang from Africa is a rear fanged snake and is considered to have one of (if not _the_) the most potent and deadly venoms in the world. However, they are not an agressive snake and have to work extremely hard on you to engage their rear-fangs so as far as I know there has only ever been one human death from a boomslang bite.

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## Evans

> Little fun side note, the boomslang from Africa is a rear fanged snake and is considered to have one of (if not _the_) the most potent and deadly venoms in the world. However, they are not an agressive snake and have to work extremely hard on you to engage their rear-fangs so as far as I know there has only ever been one human death from a boomslang bite.


The Twig Snake from Africa, I do believe, is meant to be one of the most venomous  rear-fanged snake in the world also. There is currently no anti-dote in the world for it's venom and when you do get bit, you don't die within a few hours like a "common" venomous snake, it takes about two days. So it's a very slow and painfull death. Not too sure how many people have died from this snake but Dr. Robert Mertens was killed by a pair in captivity while handling them.

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## jparker1167

boomslangs are rear fanged

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## Colin Vestrand

are you referring to discussion on this part of the forum?  i'm confused.

if so, it's because elapidae and viperidae are the two families of venomous snakes... rear fanged colubrids are just another colubrid. besides, it's proven that the salival secretions of the duvernoy's gland are the toxic part of the snake and in that case you could literally call a garter snake 'rear fanged venomous'.

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## jparker1167

rear fanged colubrids are just another colubrid ?  i wouldnt compair a garter to boomslang though

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## Colin Vestrand

but they are, physiologically speaking... that was the point i was trying to make.  there's not a lot of difference between a garter and a boomslang when you get down to it.  we just happen to be much more allergic to the saliva of the boomslang.

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## FloridaHogs

What he says is to some degree right.  Take the hognose species for example.  They are a rear fanged animals.  Some have reported being bitenand haveing itching, burnining, and localized swelling.  Others have been biten, and report no effects at all.  They are much like a bee sting, some people have a higher sensitivity to them than others.  IMO, if their "venom" is not considered medically relevant, then they should not be classified as venomous.  If you go by the whole rear-fanged attribute, then ring necked snakes will soon be on the venomous list!

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## jparker1167

yea colubrids are a lot a like but if someone said i want a rear fanged snake it would be crazy to say get a boomslang cause they are colubrids like hognose and false water cobra, hognose i dont consider to be a snake that would get you ready for venomous.

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## FloridaHogs

> yea colubrids are a lot a like but if someone said i want a rear fanged snake it would be crazy to say get a boomslang cause they are colubrids like hognose and false water cobra, hognose i dont consider to be a snake that would get you ready for venomous.


Which is why I said, " if their "venom" is _not considered medically relevant_, then they should not be classified as venomous. "  A Boomslang venom is very medically relevant! :Snake:

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## jparker1167

i agree with not calling stuff like hognose venomous, but other people disagree. so i guess it doesnt really matter what we would say huh

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## ThyTempest

I think that there really is just no understanding for the majority of the population.  If rear fanged colubrids that may or may not produce a relatively minor, save for severe allergic reaction to very few cases, are considered venomous, then hornets, wasps, bees, etc are all venomous too, yet we dont see people calling out all the beekeepers.

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Recreation (07-23-2013)

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## Colin Vestrand

exactly...

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## Skiploder

Many colubrids actually have very potent venom - the issue being that they have a very primitive delivery system.  Once you combine the small fangs, the relatively low venom yield and the primitive delivery system - the medical threat to humans is greatly lessened.

That does not mean that they produce medically insignificant venom.  The fact is that twig snakes, kukri snakes, mangrove snakes, tiger snakes, philodryas (baron's racer), brasilian smooth snakes, keelbacks, rufous beaked snakes, the false fer-de-lances, etc, etc. all have medically significant venom.  

Many of these venoms are currently, or have recently been studied and researchers are finding out just how potent the venoms of many of these "non-venomous" snakes really are.

If you get bit by one of these animals, the reaction is based on the efficacy of the envenomation - not whether or not the recipient of the bite is allergic or not.

There are rear-fanged colubrids in addition to boomslangs that have caused human deaths via envenomation.  Others, under the right circumstances, could be lethal.  Not all rear fanged colubrids are incapable of getting those rear fangs into your hand or arm.  The point being that several of these species deserve to be treated with caution.

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_eatgoodfood_ (12-05-2012)

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## FloridaHogs

Agreed, however, the lawmakers are not making that destinction, they just see "rear-fanged" and freak out now.....at least in FL.

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## Skiploder

> I think that there really is just no understanding for the majority of the population.  If rear fanged colubrids that may or may not produce a relatively minor, save for severe allergic reaction to very few cases, are considered venomous, then hornets, wasps, bees, etc are all venomous too, yet we dont see people calling out all the beekeepers.


If you were to get a bad enough bite from a hognose, the reaction you get would have little to do with allegies.

You would "suffer" from the by-product of their venom - namely toxins that affect blood coagulation - the other toxins that affect blood pressure would likely not be noticed by a human.

Hognoses are technically considered venomous, just as garter snakes and most other colubrids are technically venomous.  If you get bit bad enough, you will see mild effects from the toxins in the venom - it has nothing to do with an allergic reaction.

If people are worried about a ban, then the key to avoiding the ban is proper education as to what the risks, if any, are.  Again, if you receive a bad enough bite from a heterodon, you will exhibit symptoms that are by-products of the toxins in the venom.  The fact is that those toxins are not life threatening.

None of this is news - Bryan Grieg Fry openly discusses the toxicity of colubrid venom on his site and his forum.  The fact is that _all colubrids_, with the exception of lampropeltis, pituophis, pantherophis and their immediate relatives,  are technically venomous.

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## whytepizza

Hmm, i think this is like saying all cars are deadly so lets ban cars. Some are more deadly than others because of safty issues and how they are built (lack of air bags, seat restraints, etc.), so why not ban them all for general safty? Or how all SUV's guzzle gas. There is a stigma put on them that makes everyone despise them regarless of safty or efficiency. It's the same with these animals. I'm sure we've all seen dogs (i'm talkin big aggressive dogs like Akitas, Rottweilers, etc) who are the best animals ever. But because the stigma that is put on the breed they are thought of as a 'bad' breed.
The same applies to the word 'venom' and 'fang'. Without true knowlege and understanding of the species, venom, and delivery system readily available people are turned off by the species. Sadly, there are no readily available vemon studies of a heterodon, and therefore it cannot be generally ruled out as a venemous or non-venemous herp. That said they are probably some of the best snakes i have ever owned. Since i have no experience with many of these highly toxic rear fanged snakes i cannot agree nor disagree with the previous statements. But, i can say that i have not seen any written sorce that places them in either a docile or aggressive species, and since i can't find it neither will any lawmakers. Especially since lawmakers don't care about anything that does not directly affect them.
In my opinion a Green Tree Python could inflict more bodily harm to a person than most of these 'rear-fanged' venemoids ever could. But, i have seen many pictures that show just how far these 'rear-fanged' snakes can get their fangs out. It seems like they could easily bite any human being, yet we only have one reported case of a boomslang killing a person, and one reported case of a 'reaction of unknown cause' from a hognose bite.
Anyone who has more than 1 snake will agree, they all have different personalities. It's up to the handler to be knowlegable and careful, prepared for all circumstances.
Now, back to the point... Why are rear fanged not concidered venemoids in most forums? Well, because there are few reported cases of any rear-fanged snakes ever harming a human being, they can be free-handled without much problem, and there are few laws restricting them. Even a novice handler and pick up a hognose and learn to be a very good coulibrid handler. BUT, that same person cannot pick up a rattlesnake and expect the same reaction. Hence why some idiots put rattlesnakes in their mouth  :ROFL:  and they deserve what they get.  :Wag of the finger: 
Anyway, my personal opinion, and i could be wrong, is that a lack of education, understanding, and readily available resorces explaining rear-fanged venemoids puts lawmakers on edge and just want to ban everything all together. Any true HOT keeper would deny any hognose of being a venemoid. And any newbie herper would tell all their friends their hognose in 'poisonous'  :Razz:

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## Skiploder

> Hmm, i think this is like saying all cars are deadly so lets ban cars. Some are more deadly than others because of safty issues and how they are built (lack of air bags, seat restraints, etc.), so why not ban them all for general safty? Or how all SUV's guzzle gas. There is a stigma put on them that makes everyone despise them regarless of safty or efficiency. It's the same with these animals. I'm sure we've all seen dogs (i'm talkin big aggressive dogs like Akitas, Rottweilers, etc) who are the best animals ever. But because the stigma that is put on the breed they are thought of as a 'bad' breed.
> The same applies to the word 'venom' and 'fang'. Without true knowlege and understanding of the species, venom, and delivery system readily available people are turned off by the species. Sadly, there are no readily available vemon studies of a heterodon, and therefore it cannot be generally ruled out as a venemous or non-venemous herp. That said they are probably some of the best snakes i have ever owned. Since i have no experience with many of these highly toxic rear fanged snakes i cannot agree nor disagree with the previous statements. But, i can say that i have not seen any written sorce that places them in either a docile or aggressive species, and since i can't find it neither will any lawmakers. Especially since lawmakers don't care about anything that does not directly affect them.
> In my opinion a Green Tree Python could inflict more bodily harm to a person than most of these 'rear-fanged' venemoids ever could. But, i have seen many pictures that show just how far these 'rear-fanged' snakes can get their fangs out. It seems like they could easily bite any human being, yet we only have one reported case of a boomslang killing a person, and one reported case of a 'reaction of unknown cause' from a hognose bite.
> Anyone who has more than 1 snake will agree, they all have different personalities. It's up to the handler to be knowlegable and careful, prepared for all circumstances.
> Now, back to the point... Why are rear fanged not concidered venemoids in most forums? Well, because there are few reported cases of any rear-fanged snakes ever harming a human being, they can be free-handled without much problem, and there are few laws restricting them. Even a novice handler and pick up a hognose and learn to be a very good coulibrid handler. BUT, that same person cannot pick up a rattlesnake and expect the same reaction. Hence why some idiots put rattlesnakes in their mouth  and they deserve what they get. 
> Anyway, my personal opinion, and i could be wrong, is that a lack of education, understanding, and readily available resorces explaining rear-fanged venemoids puts lawmakers on edge and just want to ban everything all together. Any true HOT keeper would deny any hognose of being a venemoid. And any newbie herper would tell all their friends their hognose in 'poisonous'



Venemoid - _A venomoid is a snake that has ungone a surgical procedure to remove or inhibit the production of venom_.  Is this what you meant?

There_ have_ been studies on heterodon venom, and the toxic components have been identified.  They are venomous - it's been verified - there are no intelligent or valid aguments against this fact.  

But the fact also remains that they are harmless to humans.

Regarding confirmed deaths from rear-fanged colubrids....... ..There have been documented deaths from the bites of Dispholidus and Thelatornis.  Thrasops have the exact same venom as Dispholidus.....so infer from that what you will............

Philodryas have caused deaths, as have Rhabdophis.  There are others who have been identified as having the potential, under the right circumstances, to be considered lethal.

Proposed bans can be logically turned back if people take the time to actually research and educate others on the argument.  Again - all colubrids, with the exception of the pits, lampropeltis and pantherophis (et al) produce venom.  This is not open for debate - it is a fact.  Arguing that reactions to hognose bites are from "allergies" is misleading and leads to further confusion.

.....FWIW, in forums where people discuss the nature of venom, the evolution of venom and it's effects, the components of rear-fanged snake venom (and colubrids in general) are compared to those of the vipers and elapids.  It's the delivery system that mutes the threat, not the toxicity or complexity of the venom.

Again, properly defining the potential threats of some of the more potentially dangerous animals will go farther in ensuring that we can keep our heterodon and other harmless (but yes - venomous) rear fanged colubrids in the future.  Making blanket statements that, with the exception of Dispholidus, rear fangs are harmless, may result in someone being killed.  In the long run, this is an even greater threat to our hobby.

The info is out there.  We can classify some opisthoglyphs as "hots", some as "warm" and some as "cold".  But first we have discuss facts - not myths.

We largely create our own problems in this hobby.  We do a bad job of policing each other and in the end, all of us get hurt.  Promoting that all opisthoglyphs are all harmless and can be safely freehandled is a perfect example of this.

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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (06-13-2014),_eatgoodfood_ (12-05-2012)

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## Hardwikk

Hognose Snakes are probably the tamest snakes ever in captivity (maybe more tame than BPs). In general they won't bite (only as a feeding response which any snake can do), and getting bitten by one is very rare and takes lots of talent. *If* the Hognose snake is officially considered venomous, there should be a footnote saying that it's very unlikely to get bitten by one. 

     Though this doesn't say much, I've had my WHS for almost a year and he hasn't even gotten close to accidently biting me even during feeding (my KSB did twice though, but she is irrelevant since she's not rear-fanged). 

P.S. Has anyone ever been bitten by a Western Hognose snake besides for a feeding error? And how many people do you think have been bitten by a WHS?
Also one more thing: I might have said "you" in this post but I'm not talking to anyone in particular.

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## Hardwikk

> Venemoid - _A venomoid is a snake that has ungone a surgical procedure to remove or inhibit the production of venom_.  Is this what you meant?
> 
> There_ have_ been studies on heterodon venom, and the toxic components have been identified.  They are venomous - it's been verified - there are no intelligent or valid aguments against this fact.  
> 
> But the fact also remains that they are harmless to humans.


 Did they find out if the WHS produces its own venom or if its from the toads they eat in the wild? If they don't produce their own venom, that would mean that captive-bred Hognose snakes are even less of a threat.

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## Skiploder

> Hognose Snakes are probably the tamest snakes ever in captivity (maybe more tame than BPs). In general they won't bite (only as a feeding response which any snake can do), and getting bitten by one is very rare and takes lots of talent. *If* the Hognose snake is officially considered venomous, there should be a footnote saying that it's very unlikely to get bitten by one. 
> 
>      Though this doesn't say much, I've had my WHS for almost a year and he hasn't even gotten close to accidently biting me even during feeding (my KSB did twice though, but she is irrelevant since she's not rear-fanged). 
> 
> P.S. Has anyone ever been bitten by a Western Hognose snake besides for a feeding error? And how many people do you think have been bitten by a WHS?
> Also one more thing: I might have said "you" in this post but I'm not talking to anyone in particular.


Ryan:

I've only kept westerns/mexicans.  The only time I've been bitten was during a feeding strike.

Nascius/Kennerlyi use other means to defend themselves with the extent of aggression being diplay only.

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## Skiploder

> Did they find out if the WHS produces its own venom or if its from the toads they eat in the wild? If they don't produce their own venom, that would mean that captive-bred Hognose snakes are even less of a threat.



From what has been published, Rhabdophis are the only toad eaters I know of that are actually venomous _and_ poisonous.  However, keep in mind that in the case of Rhabdophis, the toad poison is stored in glands on the neck of the snake while the venom is still in stored in the actual venom glands and "injected" during a bite.

Studies on heterodon venom have revealed that it is comprised of standard snake toxin families.  

Poison dart frogs (dendrobates) often come up as an example when discussing harvesting organic molecules from food sources to produce toxins. Hoggies make their venom in dedicated protein secreting glands - totally different toxin types and production mechanisms.

Keep in mind that there is a distinction between the compounds used by animals and plants as chemical defenses against ingestion by a predator (toads/frogs). These are simple chemical compounds which is in contrast to the more specific and complex multi-protein venoms utilized by snakes.

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## Skiploder

Meant to add that I had no reaction to the feeding strike I received.

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## Hardwikk

Your posts have been read, Skip.

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## Skiploder

> Your posts have been read, Skip.


 :Confused:

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## Colin Vestrand

i posted a ton of pics in the field herping section about a garter that ate a leopard frog in my back yard this summer... i can tell you that the garter was definitely venomous to some extent because the frog was seriously comatose after just a couple minutes of being chewed on.  it went from shrieking and lunging to literally just having a glazed-over look and not moving, right before my eyes... it was pretty interesting.  just another example of the duvernois gland and how it works. on the flip side, if i were to take a bite from that same snake i would have zero effect... in fact, i think i probably have been bitten by that same snake or possibly one related to it.

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## Hardwikk

> 


I meant that I read your comments on my posts. Everyone's got a nick-name.

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## Skiploder

> I meant that I read your comments on my posts. Everyone's got a nick-name.


Gotcha.

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## whytepizza

I'm sorry, you are right, i did not mean venemoid. One of those long days at the office  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  My mind was wandering. I meant venemous.




> Venemoid - _A venomoid is a snake that has ungone a surgical procedure to remove or inhibit the production of venom_.  Is this what you meant?
> 
> There_ have_ been studies on heterodon venom, and the toxic components have been identified.  They are venomous - it's been verified - there are no intelligent or valid aguments against this fact.  
> 
> But the fact also remains that they are harmless to humans.
> 
> Regarding confirmed deaths from rear-fanged colubrids....... ..There have been documented deaths from the bites of Dispholidus and Thelatornis.  Thrasops have the exact same venom as Dispholidus.....so infer from that what you will............
> 
> Philodryas have caused deaths, as have Rhabdophis.  There are others who have been identified as having the potential, under the right circumstances, to be considered lethal.
> ...

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## Clyde Frog

I personally thought it was just because there is a colubrids section so I just assumed the creator intended for the rear-fanged colubrid discussions to take place in the colubrid section.

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## Clyde Frog

I should probably add in that I hardly know what a rear-fanged colubrid would consist of (species wise) so it makes sense in my head.  :Very Happy:

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