# Site General > Pet Related Laws & Legislation >  Is it legal to walk around outside with your snake?

## jaydoncooper2

I live in the UK and want to know if its legal to walk around town with a snake haha just curious i dont do this. Is it legal in any contry?

JAYDON.

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## Vanouri

I regularly take my ball python for walks and have never had an issue, although I live in the U.S. I can't see anyone having a problem with it, and if you are approached by someone of the law, explain how you just didn't know.

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_The Golem_ (05-29-2015)

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## MarkS

I suppose it depends on where you are.  If there are no specific laws against it, and there probably aren't since most places wouldn't take the time to bother passing such a law, then it should be fine.  I wouldn't recommend it though because if enough people complain to local government officials then there WOULD be a law against it.

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_GoingPostal_ (06-01-2015),_Marrissa_ (05-29-2015),_Ridinandreptiles_ (05-30-2015),_Shann_ (05-29-2015),_Sonny1318_ (05-29-2015)

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## The Golem

> I live in the UK and want to know if its legal to walk around town with a snake haha just curious i dont do this. Is it legal in any country?
> 
> JAYDON.


There is nothing in the bylaws for Toronto, Canada prohibiting taking a ball python outside. Most of the bylaws relate to the care and welfare of the pets, and outdoor activities/control of dogs and cats. And there's a list of prohibited animals.

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## jaydoncooper2

Vanouri, do you have it round your neck and are you allowed into stores

JAYDON.

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## Eric Alan

> Vanouri, do you have it round your neck and are you allowed into stores
> 
> JAYDON.


I would venture to say that it would depend on the store. Personally, I can't think of any good reasons to have it around your neck while shopping in the first place.

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_GoingPostal_ (06-01-2015),_Ridinandreptiles_ (05-30-2015),_Shann_ (05-29-2015),_Sonny1318_ (05-29-2015)

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## bcr229

I take my larger snakes out in the yard for sun and fresh air periodically when the weather is nice.  I'm a bit hesitant to do it with the smaller ones though, as we have hawks in the area.

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## MontyAndMelissa

I take my ball out and about all the time.  I live in the US, but there are no laws where I live against it.  I take them into stores, any store that a dog is allowed in,  my ball python is allowed in.  That's the way I see it.

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chaples84 (06-15-2015),_gameonpython_ (05-30-2015),Monty44 (01-24-2017),_The Golem_ (05-29-2015),Vanouri (05-29-2015)

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## The Golem

> I would venture to say that it would depend on the store. Personally, I can't think of any good reasons to have it around your neck while shopping in the first place.


1. To get a second opinion.
2. To see if the colour/pattern of your purchase clashes with or complements your snake's colouration.

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## DVirginiana

> 1. To get a second opinion.
> 2. To see if the colour/pattern of your purchase clashes with or complements your snake's colouration.


A second opinion on what?

The snake doesn't care what colors your decorations are.  But bringing a picture of your snake would be less stressful to the animal than bringing the actual snake.

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_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (05-29-2015),_Sonny1318_ (05-29-2015)

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## Vanouri

> Vanouri, do you have it round your neck and are you allowed into stores
> 
> JAYDON.


I do keep her around my neck, she's become a local celebrity. Depends on the store, most people don't even notice her honestly.

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_The Golem_ (05-29-2015)

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## Marissa@MKmorphs

In my opinion, unless the animal is in the privacy of your own home/yard, there is no reason to take it anywhere besides the vet. The vas majority of people have intense fears of snakes, and taking them in public often times does more harm than good... Especially with all the drama around the Lacey Act here in the states, all reptile keepers need to be respectful and do everything they can to lay low and not cause commotion. The few people I have known who handle their snakes for hours a day and tote their snake around with them have issues with the snakes getting respiratory infections, mites, refusing food, etc. 

I don't really see any benefit for the snake, and it seems like a selfish thing for the human to do, in my opinion at least. All the time outside of the enclosure is time away from proper husbandry and increased levels of stress for the snake. If I want to take a pet with me somewhere to a pet friendly place it is my dog. To the person who said they take their snake anywhere a dog is allowed, just because a place is dog friendly doesn't mean it is reptile, especially snake, friendly, and we need to respect that. 

I used to work in a small pet store in Florida, and I have literally seen people pass out or get physically violent towards someone when there was a snake around their neck or in their hand, even though they knew our store also sold reptiles.

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_200xth_ (06-01-2015),_Darkbird_ (05-30-2015),dr del (05-30-2015),_Eric Alan_ (05-30-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-01-2015),Kukulkan213 (06-05-2015),pinkpineappleshoes (05-30-2015),_Shann_ (05-30-2015),_snakey68_ (05-30-2015),_Sonny1318_ (05-30-2015)

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## Daigga

I wouldn't do it myself. I've seen someone at the local kroger that had their beardie with them, and honestly I was just thinking about how people at a grocery store could cause a fuss about the health hazards. Not to mention that my beardie is particularly fussy when out and about, and most of my snakes aren't willing to hold still either, so I can't imagine it being a pleasant experience for me or my pets. Oh, and then there's the super fun part when your out in public with an animal and random people come up to touch it without asking, or small children scream in excitement because it's something they don't usually get to see. When we would take our beardie to the pet store and couldn't get through shopping with any kind of speed due to everyone asking to hold her and some people being offended when they were told no (You can absolutely_ not_ hold my bolty dragon who has to be _leashed_ to be in public!). 

It ended up being such a hassle that we quit taking her anywhere, and I just wouldn't do it with my snakes who are a good deal more shy.

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## Albert Clark

> In my opinion, unless the animal is in the privacy of your own home/yard, there is no reason to take it anywhere besides the vet. The vas majority of people have intense fears of snakes, and taking them in public often times does more harm than good... Especially with all the drama around the Lacey Act here in the states, all reptile keepers need to be respectful and do everything they can to lay low and not cause commotion. The few people I have known who handle their snakes for hours a day and tote their snake around with them have issues with the snakes getting respiratory infections, mites, refusing food, etc. 
> 
> I don't really see any benefit for the snake, and it seems like a selfish thing for the human to do, in my opinion at least. All the time outside of the enclosure is time away from proper husbandry and increased levels of stress for the snake. If I want to take a pet with me somewhere to a pet friendly place it is my dog. To the person who said they take their snake anywhere a dog is allowed, just because a place is dog friendly doesn't mean it is reptile, especially snake, friendly, and we need to respect that. 
> 
> I used to work in a small pet store in Florida, and I have literally seen people pass out or get physically violent towards someone when there was a snake around their neck or in their hand, even though they knew our store also sold reptiles.


Kudos to you MKmorphs you took the words out of my mouth! People who take their animals beyond the confines of their homes and out into the public arena are taking unnecessary risks. A lot of the keepers who do that are just showing off. If they were really responsible reptile keepers they would be respectful of some peoples fears of snakes. Right, the person who said they take their snake anywhere a dog is allowed obviously doesn't even know the difference between a domestic pet versus a exotic pet. Some herp keepers just continue to make it more and more difficult for other responsible keepers. USARK is out here fighting the government for the rights of people to own these exotic animals but some of us could care less as evidenced by the actions of some.   :Salute:   :Good Job:   :Salute:

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_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (05-31-2015),rabernet (06-02-2015),_Shann_ (05-30-2015)

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## DVirginiana

I've known of people who would take their monitors on leashed walks that they seemed to really enjoy, but that was on private property without a bunch of frightened or over-enthusiastic people around.

EDIT:  Some pet store employees don't even like reptiles.  I got my first snake because he escaped and the cashier told me I could have him for free if I could catch him because she was afraid to handle the snakes.  And this was a newborn garter... So, like, smaller than your typical nightcrawler.

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## Vanouri

> Kudos to you MKmorphs you took the words out of my mouth! People who take their animals beyond the confines of their homes and out into the public arena are taking unnecessary risks. A lot of the keepers who do that are just showing off. If they were really responsible reptile keepers they would be respectful of some peoples fears of snakes. Right, the person who said they take their snake anywhere a dog is allowed obviously doesn't even know the difference between a domestic pet versus a exotic pet. Some herp keepers just continue to make it more and more difficult for other responsible keepers. USARK is out here fighting the government for the rights of people to own these exotic animals but some of us could care less as evidenced by the actions of some.


I would like to disagree with both of you. How you raise and take care of your snakes is your own business. My snake personally loves going out, meeting new people and sight seeing. Yes there are people who don't like snakes, and if they are respectful human beings, they will remove themselves from the situation. I've taken my Vraska on walks for as long as I've had her. Never ever had an issue with her being sick or stressed. Raising a snake is much like raising a child, so don't call one's way of raising "irresponsible" just because it doesn't fit your standards. Thanks

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DesertWolf77 (06-26-2015),EMSPrincess (05-31-2015),Monty44 (01-24-2017),_The Golem_ (05-30-2015)

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## kinley

> A second opinion on what?
> 
> The snake doesn't care what colors your decorations are.  But bringing a picture of your snake would be less stressful to the animal than bringing the actual snake.


A second opinion on the outfit of course! 

Me: "Howard does this dress make me look fat? Slither right for yes, and left for no....."
Howard: *rolls over and begins to wobble*
Me: "Well alright then..." *returns dress to rack and goes home* 



I'm only joking

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Monty44 (01-24-2017),_The Golem_ (05-30-2015)

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## anicatgirl

I have taken my girl to 

1) The breeder's who made her, when I go to pick up mice, either so they can see how big she's gotten, or if I have a concern about a weird scale or something. I'm a paranoid mama. 

2) Our most recent Renaissance Faire, at request of an organizer, for education of kids, in a zone where it was noted there were "unique" animals. 

3) Outside on my porch sometimes.

This became a huge debate on my Facebook group the other day. Please no one be irresponsible, if not for your snake's sake then for the sake of every keeper who could lose their animal if laws made us unable to have them.

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## dr del

> I live in the UK and want to know if its legal to walk around town with a snake haha just curious i dont do this. Is it legal in any contry?
> 
> JAYDON.


I live in the UK too.

there are no laws about it - but given the normal temp range etc over here it is a really bad idea anyway.

Plus for every person who likes your pet there are at least ten who will not and one who will be terrified. For the sake of the possible bad press for the hobby please just don't do it.


dr del

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## Trackstrong83

I've kept snakes for many years now, and I realize how most people are with them. Most people being deathly afraid of them, I try not to bring them in public just because I know there's a great chance people will act negatively. Every now and then I'll take some of mine out into my own yard for some sunshine. No need bringing them into public unessecarily. I love my snakes to death but some people act like they'll kill them any chance the snakes get  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## jaydoncooper2

Oh i was never planning on doing it but i know some strange pets are taken outside i was wonderinf thats all

JAYDON.

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## The Golem

> A second opinion on the outfit of course! 
> 
> Me: "Howard does this dress make me look fat? Slither right for yes, and left for no....."
> Howard: *rolls over and begins to wobble*
> Me: "Well alright then..." *returns dress to rack and goes home* 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only joking


Thank you for getting my sense of humour. Some of the people here are so serious! And somewhat inconsistent. 




> I would like to disagree with both of you. How you raise and take care of your snakes is your own business. My snake personally loves going out, meeting new people and sight seeing. Yes there are people who don't like snakes, and if they are respectful human beings, they will remove themselves from the situation. I've taken my Vraska on walks for as long as I've had her. Never ever had an issue with her being sick or stressed. Raising a snake is much like raising a child, so don't call one's way of raising "irresponsible" just because it doesn't fit your standards. Thanks


Yeah I'm in the process of training my little guy to be comfortable around my neck, putting him there and sitting/walking around at home for increasing durations.  

I find the attitude about only ever keeping snakes trapped in an opaque plastic tub, strange. At any *reptile expo* there are hundreds of snakes "out in public", in less than optimal husbandry conditions, yet the snakes manage to survive the 'ordeal' of being transported,  seen and handled by many strangers in a bright and noisy environment for hours.

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EMSPrincess (05-31-2015),Monty44 (01-24-2017),Vanouri (05-30-2015)

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## Daigga

The environment of a reptile expo is very different than the environment of a supermarket or department store. A lot of vendors at the shows I frequent have heat tape set up under their displays, so the husbandry is as optimal as possible for the time it lasts. Besides, people expect to see these animals at an expo. You guys who think going to random public places with your snakes is acceptable have obviously never experiences a terrified individual threatening to either kill your animal or call the police. I don't keep my animals in opaque tubs their entire lives, I have a private living space where I can allow them some _very closely monitored_ roaming time. 

So many people tend to just assume their snake enjoys something based on silly factors. How many people here claim their snakes enjoy soaking? How many of those snakes would actually crawl into a tub of water of their own volition? Even if my some twisted science you could actually prove your snake does enjoy going out in public; so what? Kids like candy and hate naps, do you think giving them what they want is going to be the healthiest option for them at the end of the day? You are the animals owner, it's well being is your responsibility. Enjoying people's stares in public is selfish and in poor spirit.

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_DennisM_ (05-31-2015),_Eric Alan_ (05-31-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-01-2015),lorrainesmom (06-01-2015),_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (05-31-2015),rabernet (06-02-2015),Skiploder (05-31-2015),_Sonny1318_ (05-31-2015)

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## Tsanford

This reminds me of this guy who would bring his snake to the beach every weekend..

Very large 10+ foot albino python but not sure which specific species

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## Sonny1318

Not outside, not around the neck. Old school. No apologies.

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rabernet (06-02-2015)

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## gameonpython

I go on walks with my ball python around my neck, but never in terribly public places. I wouldn't dare go into some random store with him, in fact the only store I would take him in is a pet store. Why do I do it? Well, I think it's wonderful for any animal to get real sunlight, and he's a pretty curious little guy and is always periscoping and tongue flicking on walks :Smile:  I guess you could say he's enjoying it, he's definitely not scared! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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Vanouri (05-30-2015)

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## Sonny1318

> Not outside, not around the neck. Old school. No apologies.


Ok outside in your yard, for photos. But attention, no. My daughters school even encouraged her to do a science fair project with them. And we are (Punnett Square). But to go to the store, no. And if you like them around your neck, more power to you. Hygiene, safety again no. Here come the I'm wrong comments. Just because it's not illegal, doesn't make it a good thing.

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_Shann_ (05-31-2015)

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## DVirginiana

I don't see anything inherently wrong health-wise or hygienically with letting a BP sit around your neck?  May not be a great idea with some of the really big constrictors, but a quick swipe with a washcloth or some GermX afterward would clean your neck just as good as it does your hands.

I would never take any of my current animals outside for any reason.  They're just too small and easily lost.  They're only slow till they decide to motor (even my box turtle) and then you've turned away for five seconds and they're gone.  I might if I had a large tortoise or a big lizard, but otherwise I'd be too worried about an escape attempt.  I give my turtle supervised roaming time in my reptile room, and even then I've had to go on hunts trying to find her.  The amount of time it takes for reptiles to disappear on you is just almost nonexistant.

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## Daigga

> I would never take any of my current animals outside for any reason.  They're just too small and easily lost.  They're only slow till they decide to motor (even my box turtle) and then you've turned away for five seconds and they're gone.  I might if I had a large tortoise or a big lizard, but otherwise I'd be too worried about an escape attempt.  I give my turtle supervised roaming time in my reptile room, and even then I've had to go on hunts trying to find her.  The amount of time it takes for reptiles to disappear on you is just almost nonexistant.


Runaway turtle solution

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## DVirginiana

OMG I need to try that.  It'd be so cute.  I already make her little party hats sometimes, and a blastoise  costume for Halloween one year lol.  She doesn't seem to notice or care, so I figure no harm done  :Razz:

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Black Hills Reptiles (06-02-2015)

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## Sonny1318

> I don't see anything inherently wrong health-wise or hygienically with letting a BP sit around your neck?  May not be a great idea with some of the really big constrictors, but a quick swipe with a washcloth or some GermX afterward would clean your neck just as good as it does your hands.
> 
> I would never take any of my current animals outside for any reason.  They're just too small and easily lost.  They're only slow till they decide to motor (even my box turtle) and then you've turned away for five seconds and they're gone.  I might if I had a large tortoise or a big lizard, but otherwise I'd be too worried about an escape attempt.  I give my turtle supervised roaming time in my reptile room, and even then I've had to go on hunts trying to find her.  The amount of time it takes for reptiles to disappear on you is just almost nonexistant.


 Then let's agree, not to agree. 😉 Not all us will have the same views or opinions. And you very respectively shared yours. 😊

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## DVirginiana

> Then let's agree, not to agree. 😉 Not all us will have the same views or opinions. And you very respectively shared yours. 😊


I'm just curious as to why you're so opposed to someone letting their BP sit around their neck since you never gave a reason for it.  I don't care that you don't want to do it, and I doubt the snakes care either, it's just when someone recommends or un-recommends something to other keepers it's good to know the reasoning behind it.
If the reason is that it just bugs you personally, that's perfectly fine, but other people reading this thread should know that's the reason, and it's not because it harms you or the snake.  If you have other reasons that you think it is bad for either the keeper or the snake, I'd like to know that as well.  Just asking for clarification since 'you shouldn't let your BP sit on your neck/shoulders' isn't a very commonly heard piece of advice.

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## Sonny1318

> I'm just curious as to why you're so opposed to someone letting their BP sit around their neck since you never gave a reason for it.  I don't care that you don't want to do it, and I doubt the snakes care either, it's just when someone recommends or un-recommends something to other keepers it's good to know the reasoning behind it.
> If the reason is that it just bugs you personally, that's perfectly fine, but other people reading this thread should know that's the reason, and it's not because it harms you or the snake.  If you have other reasons that you think it is bad for either the keeper or the snake, I'd like to know that as well.  Just asking for clarification since 'you shouldn't let your BP sit on your neck/shoulders' isn't a very commonly heard piece of advice.


Because it is not a very healthy habit to let reptiles of any kind to get near your facial area. It's sort of a no brainier. It's not sanitary or "good hygiene". And after years of keeping large constrictors it could be very hazardous. Sorry to say this, but you think an experienced keeper would be aware of these things. Not to mention if it did decide to bite you, your face would make an excellent target. Remember And anything that slithers in its own waste is not something I would want by my head in general. And with your mouth emitting all that heat, what a target. Need I say more.

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_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (05-31-2015),_Shann_ (05-31-2015)

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## DVirginiana

Okay, I was just curious.  As I said, I could see it getting dangerous with big constrictors, but as long as you take reasonable precautions I personally think the hygienic bit could be made safe; after all, dogs lick their rear ends and we still let them give us kisses and lick our hands lol.  I don't do it simply because it's something I've never really had the desire to do, but occasionally I've had one of my snakes crawl up my arm and really thought nothing of it.  Just made sure to wash the area off like I do my hands.
I understand the thinking behind the bite risk, and I certainly have animals (including a six inch long garter) that I wouldn't let anywhere near my face because of their temperament, while some I feel I can predict well enough to avoid a bite to the facial area.

To each his own though.  Your reasoning is solid, I think it's just a matter of each keeper's assessment of the risks involved.  Like I said, I was just interested in hearing your thoughts behind it.

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_Sonny1318_ (05-31-2015)

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## Skiploder

Just out of curiosity:

What do you think your snakes are getting by being bandied about in public?  I mean, other than drawing attention to yourselves, what benefit is there to the animal?

Now, ball pythons are nocturnal, maybe nominally crepuscular.  Studies have shown that they do not benefit in many of the ways other reptiles do with regards to calcium metabolism and UV.  

So if their instinct is to den somewhere safe during the day, what psychological effect do you think it has on them to haul them into the sunlight and talk them for walks, take them to the store, etc.?

OK, I get that a couple of you are going to get extremely defensive, probably even huffy and pissy....and from some of you I would expect no less.

For the rest of you that condone this behavior and can answer the question without getting defensive, please enlighten me as to the benefits _to the animal_.  Again, "conversation piece" does not constitute a cogent reason, nor does "educating the public".  Your job as keeper is to provide a healthy environment that minimizes stress.  

Thanks in advance.

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_Darkbird_ (05-31-2015),_DennisM_ (05-31-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-01-2015),_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (05-31-2015),rabernet (06-02-2015),_Shann_ (05-31-2015),_Sonny1318_ (06-01-2015)

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## DVirginiana

I pretty much agree with that actually.  The only real exception I would see is if someone were doing an actual formal educational program.  We occasionally had those at my elementary school when I was growing up and I can honestly say they did a lot to influence my thinking on reptiles.  But, yeah that's kind of a different ballpark than taking a snake to the store with you.

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_Shann_ (05-31-2015)

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## Skiploder

> I pretty much agree with that actually.  The only real exception I would see is if someone were doing an actual formal educational program.  We occasionally had those at my elementary school when I was growing up and I can honestly say they did a lot to influence my thinking on reptiles.  But, yeah that's kind of a different ballpark than taking a snake to the store with you.


With diurnal species that benefit from sunlight, I would suggest people build outdoor enclosures if they are so darned concerned about the lack of UV or space.  I live in northern California and have built outdoor pens for various animals to enjoy SUPERVISED outdoor time.  Only animals that do not show signs of stress are taken into the pens.

However, in ball pythons, this is of no moment.

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## DVirginiana

> With diurnal species that benefit from sunlight, I would suggest people build outdoor enclosures if they are so darned concerned about the lack of UV or space.
> 
> However, in ball pythons, this is of no moment.



The only time I ever took an animal outside for sun was when I first got my turtle and, being kind of a surprise rescue, I didn't have all the equipment I needed for her.  Even then she was in a box, as I never trust an animal to roam around on its own without running off.

The idea of taking any of mine outside just makes me cringe because there's so much that could go wrong, and I'd never stop beating myself up over it if something happened while I was doing something that the animal didn't even need or want.

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## EMSPrincess

I wish I could "reply with thread" to like 10 of these. Like good god why are you all so mean..... :Confused:

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## Sonny1318

> I wish I could "reply with thread" to like 10 of these. Like good god why are you all so mean.....


Please elaborate....

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## DVirginiana

> Please elaborate....


I actually thought this thread was pretty mild compared to a lot of what I've seen on here lol

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## EMSPrincess

> I actually thought this thread was pretty mild compared to a lot of what I've seen on here lol


Exactly...

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## Skiploder

> Please elaborate....


Well, Sonny....

The only logical explanation is that she understands how cruel it is too take a shy, retiring, easily stressed, nocturnal animal and show it off in public like a new pair of shoes.

Right....?

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_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (05-31-2015),_Sonny1318_ (05-31-2015)

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## Skiploder

> The environment of a reptile expo is very different than the environment of a supermarket or department store. A lot of vendors at the shows I frequent have heat tape set up under their displays, so the husbandry is as optimal as possible for the time it lasts. Besides, people expect to see these animals at an expo. You guys who think going to random public places with your snakes is acceptable have obviously never experiences a terrified individual threatening to either kill your animal or call the police. I don't keep my animals in opaque tubs their entire lives, I have a private living space where I can allow them some _very closely monitored_ roaming time. 
> 
> So many people tend to just assume their snake enjoys something based on silly factors. How many people here claim their snakes enjoy soaking? How many of those snakes would actually crawl into a tub of water of their own volition? Even if my some twisted science you could actually prove your snake does enjoy going out in public; so what? Kids like candy and hate naps, do you think giving them what they want is going to be the healthiest option for them at the end of the day? You are the animals owner, it's well being is your responsibility. Enjoying people's stares in public is selfish and in poor spirit.


Hear hear!

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_kiiarah_ (07-09-2015),_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (05-31-2015)

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## Shann

I selfishly take my boa outside to get awesome pictures of her. In my own backyard. With high walls so that potentially nosy neighbors don't see how big she is. It doesn't really benefit her at all. I just like taking nice pictures. But that is it. It's outside for a few minutes to take some pictures, then back inside to proper conditions. 

When my friends learn I have a boa, and they want to meet her, they get to, but otherwise I am so scared of drawing unwanted attention, the last thing I want to do is parade her around. I don't want someone to make it their personal goal to see my pets banned. 

I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but honestly people who take their snakes to the park or other very public places often seem to be doing it for attention. I think that as responsible pet owners, we should always ask ourselves, "*are we doing it for our animal's benefit, or for our own?"* And I don't keep reptiles to be interesting, or different, or cool. I keep them because I like to keep them them, and I keep to myself about it.

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_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (05-31-2015)

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## alucard0822

There is a lot of grey area if you base every decision on what is best for the animal, staying in an unspoiled natural habitat is "best", but then we miss out on any interaction with them, so there will always be some degree of compromise.  People want to interact with their pets, we want to breed new and interesting morphs, keep a wider variety of species, show them off to others, and want to handle them while providing a relatively healthy captive environment in return.  Unlike a dog that needs constant interaction and socialization for it's wellbeing, reptiles need little if any, and it could cause health problems if they are stressed from handling outside their enclosure too often, or for too long, but they can acclimate to some degree, and increase their tolerance for being handled while maintaining low stress and good health. 

 In practice You need to know your pet, need to know your area, and need to control ALL interactions between your pet and the public, even if you have to leave or tell someone to back off if they are doing something wrong.  Balancing the risk/reward between you, the public, and your animal is a personal decision that nobody should make for you, just don't be the idiot on the news after someone gets hurt, and don't be so concerned for the fears of others that you hide your animals like you are some sort of criminal.  There is a fine line with public exposure of many things between managing fear and ignorance and the goal of normalizing interactions and promoting understanding.  I have taken snakes and Beardies out in public, although not as often as my Dogs, and have had far more positive encounters than negative, but I am selective on who I take, where and when, I transport reptiles in a heated travel bin, and put them away at the first sign of stress.

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## EMSPrincess

> Well, Sonny....
> 
> The only logical explanation is that she understands how cruel it is too take a shy, retiring, easily stressed, nocturnal animal and show it off in public like a new pair of shoes.
> 
> Right....?


No, not right. I am not talking about the personal choices people make with their pets. I talking about what seems to be the good number of people on here who are straight up rude, sarcastic, and demeaning to each other. 
There is no reason to be mean when you can voice the exact same opinion in a kind way that communicates to the same depth the first method did. Especially to someone like the OP who had a honest question about the _legal_ (not societal) ramifications of taking a snake outside. 
Sonny even tried to call a truce and DVirginianna ignored it.
And then (Sonny to DVirginianna), "Sorry to say this, but you think an experienced keeper would be aware of these things." DVirginianna was asking your opinion out of curiosity, Sonny. They honestly wanted to know. And you felt the need to call them inadequate at what they do.
You, Skiploder, attacked my comment for no reason, and with the shoes statement, implied I'm some sort of materialistic air-head (thank you for that, it's really hard to find a girl who likes both snakes and shoes these days).
Albert Clark wrote "Right, the person who said they take their snake anywhere a dog is allowed obviously doesn't know the difference between a domestic pet versus a exotic pet." Albert...they know the difference. No need to put them down for voicing their opinion.
Diagga went at someone and called them selfish. No, they are not selfish. They are proud of their beautiful snake. Who wouldn't be?
None of these things actually addressed the OP's comment. 
Please, be a little more kind.

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Monty44 (01-24-2017)

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## DVirginiana

> No, not right. I am not talking about the personal choices people make with their pets. I talking about what seems to be the good number of people on here who are straight up rude, sarcastic, and demeaning to each other. 
> There is no reason to be mean when you can voice the exact same opinion in a kind way that communicates to the same depth the first method did. Especially to someone like the OP who had a honest question about the _legal_ (not societal) ramifications of taking a snake outside. 
> Sonny even tried to call a truce and DVirginianna ignored it.
> And then (Sonny to DVirginianna), "Sorry to say this, but you think an experienced keeper would be aware of these things." DVirginianna was asking your opinion out of curiosity, Sonny. They honestly wanted to know. And you felt the need to call them inadequate at what they do.
> You, Skiploder, attacked my comment for no reason, and with the shoes statement, implied I'm some sort of materialistic air-head (thank you for that, it's really hard to find a girl who likes both snakes and shoes these days).
> Albert Clark wrote "Right, the person who said they take their snake anywhere a dog is allowed obviously doesn't know the difference between a domestic pet versus a exotic pet." Albert...they know the difference. No need to put them down for voicing their opinion.
> Diagga went at someone and called them selfish. No, they are not selfish. They are proud of their beautiful snake. Who wouldn't be?
> None of these things actually addressed the OP's comment. 
> Please, be a little more kind.


?? I didn't ignore a 'truce' because there was no 'argument'.  I was curious as to why Sonny had that opinion and felt strongly enough to recommend it to others, so I asked for some clarification.  Not because I particularly needed to know, but because I'd want to know if I was a new keeper reading this thread.  I wasn't offended by the response because it really wasn't that offensive.  I've got over ten years' experience working with snakes and I'm confident in my ability to avoid disease and injury from letting a snake sit on my shoulder.  I'm also okay with Sonny choosing not to.  Now that he's given his (entirely understandable) reason why, it's up to whoever is reading to decide whether the risk of sickness/injury is worth allowing their snakes on their shoulders.  

Maybe I'm just immune to peoples' tone over the internet, but it basically takes someone abusing an animal for me to be emotionally invested in a forum post. :Cool: 

In regards to someone being selfish for taking their snake to the store with them: It may be done with good intentions, but until someone can give me one reason it's beneficial to the snake I've got to agree it's a selfish thing to do.

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_Sonny1318_ (06-01-2015)

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## EMSPrincess

> ?? I didn't ignore a 'truce' because there was no 'argument'.  I was curious as to why Sonny had that opinion and felt strongly enough to recommend it to others, so I asked for some clarification.  Not because I particularly needed to know, but because I'd want to know if I was a new keeper reading this thread.  I wasn't offended by the response because it really wasn't that offensive.  I've got over ten years' experience working with snakes and I'm confident in my ability to avoid disease and injury from letting a snake sit on my shoulder.  I'm also okay with Sonny choosing not to.  Now that he's given his (entirely understandable) reason why, it's up to whoever is reading to decide whether the risk of sickness/injury is worth allowing their snakes on their shoulders.  
> 
> Maybe I'm just immune to peoples' tone over the internet, but it basically takes someone abusing an animal for me to be emotionally invested in a forum post.
> 
> In regards to someone being selfish for taking their snake to the store with them: It may be done with good intentions, but until someone can give me one reason it's beneficial to the snake I've got to agree it's a selfish thing to do.


Ok..the store? No. That's gross. The park? Maybe. Far away from tiny humans and the makers of the tiny humans. But that really wasn't the point of my post...

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## DVirginiana

> Ok..the store? No. That's gross. The park? Maybe. Far away from tiny humans and the makers of the tiny humans. But that really wasn't the point of my post...


...Well, the majority of my reply dealt with the other part of your post but you're only replying to my last sentence.  Like I said, maybe I just have a thick skin, but I really didn't see anything that offensive in this thread.

People on this forum can be blunt, especially when it comes to things that might stress or harm a snake, and that's what I was talking about.  It's better for people to discuss and be blunt about things than to let someone carry on stressing their animals for their own benefit just because they don't want to ruffle any feathers.

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## EMSPrincess

Sorry.
That's fine and I agree. But no need to attack people, you know?
If you just state your opinion, and someone else states theirs that doesn't align with yours, well...let the person who is looking for an answer decide for themselves. Which frankly is what you did by asking what Sonny what they meant. But other's didn't, and as you pointed out, it wouldn't be the first time that sort of thing happens on this site.

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## DVirginiana

I've noticed this forum can get a bit intense compared to others I'm on.  I think a lot of it is just the product of explaining the same things a hundred times honestly.  BPs are so commonly bought as starter or throw-away pets with no research it's easy to get irritated when maybe you shouldn't, because for every person doing research and doing what they should, there are ten more who aren't being responsible and ignore advice.

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EMSPrincess (06-01-2015)

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## Skiploder

> No, not right. I am not talking about the personal choices people make with their pets. I talking about what seems to be the good number of people on here who are straight up rude, sarcastic, and demeaning to each other. 
> There is no reason to be mean when you can voice the exact same opinion in a kind way that communicates to the same depth the first method did. Especially to someone like the OP who had a honest question about the _legal_ (not societal) ramifications of taking a snake outside. 
> Sonny even tried to call a truce and DVirginianna ignored it.
> And then (Sonny to DVirginianna), "Sorry to say this, but you think an experienced keeper would be aware of these things." DVirginianna was asking your opinion out of curiosity, Sonny. They honestly wanted to know. And you felt the need to call them inadequate at what they do.
> You, Skiploder, attacked my comment for no reason, and with the shoes statement, implied I'm some sort of materialistic air-head (thank you for that, it's really hard to find a girl who likes both snakes and shoes these days).
> Albert Clark wrote "Right, the person who said they take their snake anywhere a dog is allowed obviously doesn't know the difference between a domestic pet versus a exotic pet." Albert...they know the difference. No need to put them down for voicing their opinion.
> Diagga went at someone and called them selfish. No, they are not selfish. They are proud of their beautiful snake. Who wouldn't be?
> None of these things actually addressed the OP's comment. 
> Please, be a little more kind.



All of the discussion addressed the OP's comment.  It's a monumentally BAD idea to take a shy, retiring, easily stressed, nocturnal snake and sashay it around in public.  It shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the natural history and needs of the snake.  It has no benefit to the animal.

It is a bad idea because it defies the fundamental principle that as a keeper of an exotic pet, you should do everything in your power to provide a stress free healthy environment for your charge.

If someone holds the opinion that this is a "good" idea or a practice that should be performed, than they are MISINFORMED, and their opinion is devalued on this subject.  In fact, I would hesitate to even hold this notion in high enough regard to call it an "opinion".  An opinion should be based - to some degree - on fact.

Daigga's comment was spot on.  If a person is so proud of something that they cease to consider it's well being in favor of showing it off, then they stride across the definition of "pride" and into "selfish".  That person is doing something in the name of vanity that causes immeasurable stress to the animal.  Inexcusable.

I watch people do a lot of stupid things.  Many of these things are not intentional.  Many of these things people new to the hobby would not intuitively understand.

This is not one of those things.  

Please, be a little more kind to your snake.  Your pride is no excuse to stress these animals.  No one elected any of you to be an ambassador for this hobby.

----------

ballpythonluvr (06-01-2015),Creepy Alien (06-02-2015),_Daigga_ (06-01-2015),_Dave Green_ (06-01-2015),_Eric Alan_ (06-01-2015),Gio (06-02-2015),PitOnTheProwl (06-01-2015),rabernet (06-02-2015),_Shann_ (06-01-2015),_Sonny1318_ (06-01-2015)

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## HVani

Geeze I'm nervous to take my snakes in the front yard where someone may see, much less a park or public place. 

I do take my snakes outside in my backyard that has a high privacy fence.  The less my neighbors know the better.  

Why do I do it?  Because I want to.  For me part of owning an animal is being to able to interact with it and I have for that reason chose species that generally accept handling.  

If you want to educate the public, than join a group that does that sort of things, don't force it onto people.  In my area there is a local reptile group that goes to schools and has a booth at the county fair to help educate people about reptiles.  

As for taking animals outside, I see no issue with it within reason.  I don't take my leopard geckos outside because they are nocturnal and have sensitive eyes.  The snakes on the other hand seem to do fine. Only my boa seems to "like" going outside. I still have perfect sheds and perfect feeding habits.  I won't lie to myself and say I do it for them.  I do it because I enjoy it and find it relaxing.   The snakes are fine, I'm happy and no harm is done.

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EMSPrincess (06-01-2015),_Shann_ (06-01-2015)

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## EMSPrincess

> All of the discussion addressed the OP's comment.  It's a monumentally BAD idea to take a shy, retiring, easily stressed, nocturnal snake and sashay it around in public.  It shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the natural history and needs of the snake.  It has no benefit to the animal.
> 
> It is a bad idea because it defies the fundamental principle that as a keeper of an exotic pet, you should do everything in your power to provide a stress free healthy environment for your charge.
> 
> If someone holds the opinion that this is a "good" idea or a practice that should be performed, than they are MISINFORMED, and their opinion is devalued on this subject.  In fact, I would hesitate to even hold this notion in high enough regard to call it an "opinion".  An opinion should be based - to some degree - on fact.
> 
> Daigga's comment was spot on.  If a person is so proud of something that they cease to consider it's well being in favor of showing it off, then they stride across the definition of "pride" and into "selfish".  That person is doing something in the name of vanity that causes immeasurable stress to the animal.  Inexcusable.
> 
> I watch people do a lot of stupid things.  Many of these things are not intentional.  Many of these things people new to the hobby would not intuitively understand.
> ...


Again, the OP's question was regarding the LEGAL ramifications of taking a snake outside, not the PERSONAL or SOCIETAL consequences of doing so. Perhaps a new thread needed to be started to address these two separate issues. 
I have yet to state whether I take my own snakes outside, in public, in the house, around my shoulders, to the store - heck, let's just throw a rocket trip to the moon in there. I have yet to state my own actions with my own snakes. 
Of course no one is an ambassador to the hobby, that is why it is so important to allow everyone to voice their own opinions and accept those opinions as important and respect them, even if you don't deem them valid.

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## DVirginiana

Yeah, but I feel like the logical next-step to the question of CAN you take a snake outside without being arrested is SHOULD you.  I feel like one kind of needs to be addressed if you talk about the other.

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_kiiarah_ (07-09-2015),_Shann_ (06-02-2015),_Sonny1318_ (06-01-2015)

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## d_b

Disturbing the peace in the wonderful state of Utah in the good ole USA. Mind you if someone pushes the issue.

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## rabernet

> I would like to disagree with both of you. How you raise and take care of your snakes is your own business. My snake personally loves going out, meeting new people and sight seeing. Yes there are people who don't like snakes, and if they are respectful human beings, they will remove themselves from the situation. I've taken my Vraska on walks for as long as I've had her. Never ever had an issue with her being sick or stressed. Raising a snake is much like raising a child, so don't call one's way of raising "irresponsible" just because it doesn't fit your standards. Thanks


I'm just curious how you KNOW that your snake "loves" going out?

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_GoingPostal_ (06-02-2015)

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## Vanouri

> I'm just curious how you KNOW that your snake "loves" going out?


Because I know my snake. Not all pets are alike and this goes for snakes too. While I get that mY Vraska may be an exception and not all other snakes are social little critters, I'm pointing out that there is a view different than the others expressed here. The only way I could "prove" to you that my snake likes what she does was if you were to meet her in person.

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## DVirginiana

> Because I know my snake. Not all pets are alike and this goes for snakes too. While I get that mY Vraska may be an exception and not all other snakes are social little critters, I'm pointing out that there is a view different than the others expressed here. The only way I could "prove" to you that my snake likes what she does was if you were to meet her in person.


... You could give us a list of behaviors that indicate a lack of stress in ball pythons that your snake performs when you take it outside.  These do not change from individual to individual.

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## rabernet

> Because I know my snake. Not all pets are alike and this goes for snakes too. While I get that mY Vraska may be an exception and not all other snakes are social little critters, I'm pointing out that there is a view different than the others expressed here. The only way I could "prove" to you that my snake likes what she does was if you were to meet her in person.


That really didn't answer my question though. What behavior is she doing, that informs you that she LOVES being out and about with you? There's something in her behavior that makes you believe this to be true, since she can't really tell you that she loves it.

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## Vanouri

> ... You could give us a list of behaviors that indicate a lack of stress in ball pythons that your snake performs when you take it outside.  These do not change from individual to individual.


She acts the same as when I have her out inside the house. She's always active and looking to explore. When meeting new people, she licks at their direction then goes straight for making a new friend by crawling over to them. When we go home and put her back in the tank, she tries to get back out for a few minutes until she gives up and goes back in her hut. She's been compared to a dog for her friendliness and others who own snakes say that she is just the most social little thing. Again, I'm not sure how to prove to all of you that she is not stressed, but she seems fine to me and in fact seems to enjoy it. I would not do anything to purposefully hurt her or put her in danger.

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## Stannos

I'd take Vivian out, but only for short periods and places where she'd be safe , but I have no problem with her exploring my garden for a good 10-20 mins , obviously as long as I'm there (she's my precious).  If I had the opportunity I would take her to school for a little show or outside for a little bit but I am honestly petrified of some hateful moron snatching her from me it killing her on the spot .  

I think it's better to do it for diurnal species as there is little stress risk unlike nocturnal species such as BP's .

As long as you trust your self , your snake and the people around you it should be acceptable.

I too live in the UK and there is no law against it .  

I think it would be nice to see more snakes out and about with their owners but it's up to the keeper not society , though one does have to watch out for the latter .

Stan  :Smile: 


Stan:

Vivian the cornsnake 
Nymeria the Het. Pied Royal
Baldrick the Piebald Royal
Larry and Lizzy the common wall lizards

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Vanouri (06-02-2015)

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## Stannos

> I live in the UK and want to know if its legal to walk around town with a snake haha just curious i dont do this. Is it legal in any contry?
> 
> JAYDON.


Also I think many diurnal species that are out in the day would definitely ENJOY some new stimuli, there's only so many things to explore inside the enclosure.  (considerably less so for racks). 

Stan  :Smile: 


Stan:

Vivian the cornsnake 
Nymeria the Het. Pied Royal
Baldrick the Piebald Royal
Larry and Lizzy the common wall lizards

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## DVirginiana

> She acts the same as when I have her out inside the house. She's always active and looking to explore. When meeting new people, she licks at their direction then goes straight for making a new friend by crawling over to them. When we go home and put her back in the tank, she tries to get back out for a few minutes until she gives up and goes back in her hut. She's been compared to a dog for her friendliness and others who own snakes say that she is just the most social little thing. Again, I'm not sure how to prove to all of you that she is not stressed, but she seems fine to me and in fact seems to enjoy it. I would not do anything to purposefully hurt her or put her in danger.


Every one of those things you just mentioned can be an indicator of stress in a ball python.  They are happiest when left alone and undisturbed; they may tolerate being handled, some more than others, but this doesn't mean they like it.

You don't have to try and explain this, it is literally the same list of reasons anyone ever gives as to why their snake 'likes' something.

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## Vanouri

> Every one of those things you just mentioned can be an indicator of stress in a ball python.  They are happiest when left alone and undisturbed; they may tolerate being handled, some more than others, but this doesn't mean they like it.
> 
> You don't have to try and explain this, it is literally the same list of reasons anyone ever gives as to why their snake 'likes' something.


And this is your opinion based on how your snakes act. And as you said they CAN be signs of stress based on your opinion. I will continue to raise my snake how I see fit and you do the same with yours  :Smile:

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## DVirginiana

> Also I think many diurnal species that are out in the day would definitely ENJOY some new stimuli, there's only so many things to explore inside the enclosure.  (considerably less so for racks).


My theory was that it may have more to do with metabolism than whether they are diurnal or nocturnal.  My garters will come out and chase me around the room (to the extent they are able to in their tanks) begging for a treat or whatever. Being fish-eaters in the wild, garters have a way faster metabolism than most other snakes and therefore an increased seeking drive, since they'd have to be out hunting for food more often in the wild.  They also have the distinction of being one of the few snakes that displays much social behavior beyond mating.
I think a nocturnal species with a fast metabolism would probably show those same traits and drive to explore, just at night.

That's not to say my garters don't enjoy hiding, but they are much quicker to abandon a hide and go out looking for food than my BP.

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## YZGuy79

> I would venture to say that it would depend on the store. Personally, I can't think of any good reasons to have it around your neck while shopping in the first place.


I take my largest one around my neck constantly in the summer. The smaller ones cn only wrap around my wrist and that makes me nervous. Most people either ask to see it or just veer away from me. I try to be respectful and stay away from crowds of people. Most stores dont even realize its a live snake because she stays put 95% of the time. If a store in the area says anything about it, I just make a mental note to not bring her there again. I obviously dont go to food establishments with her. Its just like walking a dog. I take her out when I have no real plans but just going out to go. 

~Regards, YzGuy

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## DVirginiana

> And this is your opinion based on how your snakes act. And as you said they CAN be signs of stress based on your opinion. I will continue to raise my snake how I see fit and you do the same with yours


You are anthropomorphizing your animals.

Let me rephrase: Those are signs of stress in a ball python.  What do we tell new keepers their BPs should be spending most of their time doing? Hiding.  If someone has a snake that is active and out and about all the time, it's actually a sign that something is probably wrong with the husbandry.

----------

blbsnakes (06-02-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-02-2015),_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (06-02-2015),rabernet (06-02-2015),_Sonny1318_ (06-02-2015)

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## Vanouri

> You are anthropomorphizing your animals.
> 
> Let me rephrase: Those are signs of stress in a ball python.


Again, let me tell you that this is your opinion. You are relying on my crappy ways of description to tell what is going on with my snake. Unless you see her in person and deem she is "stressed", I see no reason to accept your reasoning over my own. She has no problems eating, being aggressive, balling up, shedding or showing aversion to people. I'd most likely notice a change in one or some of these things if my snake was "stressed". I thank you for your opinion but you need to know that there are exceptions and that your way may not always be the right way.

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## DVirginiana

Yes, I bet your BP is the only one in the whole world that actually has the emotional capacity to enjoy socialization with humans and shows stress entirely differently than the rest of her species.

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blbsnakes (06-02-2015)

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## Vanouri

> Yes, I bet your BP is the only one in the whole world that actually has the emotional capacity to enjoy socialization with humans and shows stress entirely differently than the rest of her species.


I'm not saying she's the only one  :Wink:  You just seem pretty narrow minded in that all ball pythons and snakes in general are the same, when they are not. Each snake will have its little quirks.

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## DVirginiana

Yeah, but you're saying that your animal apparently displays stress in a way entirely unique to her species.  I am not narrow-minded; the snakes are.  There's really not a whole lot of behavioral variation there.  Sure, you will have some more tolerant of handling than others, some more aggressive than others; the situations in which they express stress, aggression, or fear may be slightly different, but the actual expression of those things is going to look very similar regardless of the animal.

It's not going to kill your snake to take it outside or whatever, so I don't really care, but all the things you listed as reasons she likes it are signs of stress which, as I said, looks pretty much the same from snake to snake.  If I told you my dog growls and snaps when he's happy and wants to be petted, you'd probably rely on your own understanding of dog behavior and decide I'm wrong and you don't want to pet him while he's growling and snapping at you.

----------

blbsnakes (06-02-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-02-2015),_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (06-02-2015),rabernet (06-02-2015),_Sonny1318_ (06-02-2015)

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## dr del

Now now, play nice people.  :Wag of the finger:

----------

EMSPrincess (06-03-2015),_Eric Alan_ (06-02-2015)

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## M.P.C

Awful lot of people standing on soapboxes in this thread.

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## Skiploder

> I'm not saying she's the only one  You just seem pretty narrow minded in that all ball pythons and snakes in general are the same, when they are not. Each snake will have its little quirks.


What DVirginiana and others are trying to tell you is that ball pythons - as a species - have a set of behavioral patterns that indicate whether they are in comfort or in distress.

Many of these behavioral patterns are contradictory to what we normally perceive as comfort or distress...mainly because signs of comfort include staying hidden and signs of distress manifest as heightened awareness in their surroundings (among many others).

While each snake does indeed have it's own little quirks, ball pythons are programmed to seek cover and security during the day and feed, mate, etc. during the night.

Deviations from these ingrained and instinctual patterns result in distress.  The signs of distress in snakes has been studied and documented.

So instead of arguing back and forth, are you aware of the signs of comfort and distress in snakes?  If you are, can you confirm that your animal is indeed showing signs of comfort?

If not, would you be willing to learn about the signs of comfort and distress and re-evaluate your position on this?

----------

blbsnakes (06-02-2015),_Marissa@MKmorphs_ (06-02-2015),_Sonny1318_ (06-02-2015)

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## Vanouri

> So instead of arguing back and forth, are you aware of the signs of comfort and distress in snakes?  If you are, can you confirm that your animal is indeed showing signs of comfort?
> 
> If not, would you be willing to learn about the signs of comfort and distress and re-evaluate your position on this?


I cannot show you over the internet just how my snake acts. I feel she is comfortable and go on that. I've read up on signs of stress and can see them in my other snakes who are not big fans of handling. They are not present in the one I take for walks. The only thing I could see as someone interpreting as stress is her activity level, perhaps saying she is too active and seeking shelter. However after having her for a year, I know this is her normal activity level outside the tank. She acts perfectly normal and looks healthy despite my taking her for walks. 
Unless a certified vet corrects me, I will continue with my practices. Thank you for being understanding and not pushing your ways on us!

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## Daigga

There's one last thing I would like to say on this topic.

If I have guests at my home, in my own private living space, I don't take my snakes out to show them. 

Most people that visit me are aware of my menagerie upstairs, and if they'd like they are more than welcome to see my collection and setup. However, I am not going to remove a snake from it's environment and bring it downstairs (where the temperature is usually about 10 degrees cooler) just to show it off. I remember being a kid at a friends house watching TV, and their older brother just straight up came into the room and sat down with a snake; no comments, no questions, just came in with a snake. People like this are only looking to get a reaction, which is not why I have snakes. 

I believe in respecting people as well as keeping my snakes as healthy as possible. Both of these things point to me not wanting to put my snakes in a situation that makes either them or another person uncomfortable. There are zero benefits to taking your snake out in public and there could be so many harmful effects, I don't understand why any responsible keeper would risk it. A snake is not a dog and should not be treated as such.

----------

Creepy Alien (06-02-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-02-2015),rabernet (06-03-2015)

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## DVirginiana

This really isn't a huge issue so I can agree to disagree with your handling practices; people do a thousand things to their pets that aren't 100% in the best interest of the animal and serve primarily to benefit us.  I put clothes on my dog (a 70 lb shepherd/chow mix if you wanted a visual) sometimes, and I'm absolutely sure he doesn't benefit from it.  I know my tarantulas hate it when I open their enclosures to look at them.  I still do those things sometimes because they benefit me (and because the spiders sit in the same spot so long it's good to know they haven't died).  When it comes down to it, no taking your BP outside probably won't do serious harm to a calmer snake, even though I disagree with doing it.

I can get intense when I'm talking about behavior and neurology because it's something I'm very interested in and have taken a lot of coursework on, so I just wanted to be clear that I'm mainly debating whether something is a sign of stress in a BP and how variable their ways of expressing stress are, rather than whether or not someone is a terrible person for taking their snake outside.

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## Jhill001

I'm offering up an opinion on the subject. This might get a bit long winded. 

In regards to taking a snake/other reptile out to the grocery store or other random stores. What the heck are you thinking? The grocery store has temps that swing wildly from area to area that's not good for any animal. I don't even like it. And most other stores temps sit around 65 degrees in the summer due to air conditioning. That's not good for them. Those are hibernation temps for some species. 

In regards to taking a snake/other reptile to a pet store/reptile show. What the heck are you thinking!?!?!?! Seriously?!!! I don't care what your opinion is about whatever random pet store is in your town there are a bunch of wild caught reptiles in that store and you risk infecting your pet with their diseases/parasites. I hope you don't bother quarantining your snakes/reptiles because its basically a waste of time if you are taking your snakes to pet shows/stores. 

In regards to taking a snake outside. This one I don't really care assuming the temperature and humidity conditions are favorable. If you want to get a photo of your snake in a natural environment sweet. However as with the above situations you risk escapes, random people bothering you. If you are working with native species you run the risk of being reported if keeping them in your area is illegal. 

There is an alternative to getting a photo in a natural environment. Considering most of these species we keep aren't native to our own area, maybe get a houseplant from the origin country and pose your reptile on it within the relative safety of your own home. Set up a small studio, which is relatively easy with a sheet and something to put the snake on. 

In regards to walking around with your snake outside. What's the point? There are other ways of adding enrichment to a reptiles daily life than handling them around the block. 

Finally in general the only reason your reptile should ever be out in public is if it is in some sort of educational capacity with them. That's it. Educating the public about reptiles and how interesting they are is the only reason they should ever be exposed to the public.

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## Skiploder

> I cannot show you over the internet just how my snake acts. I feel she is comfortable and go on that. I've read up on signs of stress and can see them in my other snakes who are not big fans of handling. They are not present in the one I take for walks. The only thing I could see as someone interpreting as stress is her activity level, perhaps saying she is too active and seeking shelter. However after having her for a year, I know this is her normal activity level outside the tank. She acts perfectly normal and looks healthy despite my taking her for walks. 
> Unless a certified vet corrects me, I will continue with my practices. Thank you for being understanding and not pushing your ways on us!


No problem.

However...a vet's insight would be worthless.  The only opinion of value is that of researchers who took the time and effort to publish peer reviewed research on this subject.

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anicatgirl (06-02-2015)

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## Vanouri

Then a certified Herpetologist or Biologist can tell me how to raise my snake, not someone over the internet. I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.

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## KMG

> I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.


You may be surprised how many vets are in the back of the office with a reptile book while the patient is waiting in the exam room. I can understand it to a point since there are so many snakes and so many different requirements.

I personally do not see an issue with it and Im not trying to suggest anything you are doing is wrong. Just sharing my opinion on vets. I have seen this first hand.

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_Shann_ (06-06-2015)

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## DVirginiana

> Then a certified Herpetologist or Biologist can tell me how to raise my snake, not someone over the internet. I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.


I agree with KMG.  Even reptile specialist vets often don't know a lot about less commonly kept species right off the top of their heads.  General small animal vets know pretty much nothing at all about reptiles.  I've even had one waive the office visit charge because he admitted up front that he had no experience with reptiles.

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KMG (06-02-2015),_Shann_ (06-06-2015)

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## Skiploder

> Then a certified Herpetologist or Biologist can tell me how to raise my snake, not someone over the internet. I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.


I'm taking the time to read your posts very carefully, so please return the favor.

There are published, peer reviewed studies that deal specifically with this subject.  In light of that, your insistence on having a certified biologist, proctologist, herpetologist or any _ologist_ relay the information to you is perplexing.  Especially considering most of them WON'T be able to help you in any way, shape or form.

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Gio (06-02-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-03-2015),_Shann_ (06-06-2015),_Sonny1318_ (06-02-2015)

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## Vanouri

> I'm taking the time to read your posts very carefully, so please return the favor.
> 
> There are published, peer reviewed studies that deal specifically with this subject.  In light of that, your insistence on having a certified biologist, proctologist, herpetologist or any _ologist_ relay the information to you is perplexing.  Especially considering most of them WON'T be able to help you in any way, shape or form.


I'm a bit curious as to why you think someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology would have nothing to offer me. I'm not saying your peer reviewed studies are wrong...but who do you think publishes those? Thankfully neither I or my snake need to see a proctologist however.

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## Skiploder

> I've read up on signs of stress and can see them in my other snakes who are not big fans of handling. They are not present in the one I take for walks. The only thing I could see as someone interpreting as stress is her activity level, perhaps saying she is too active and seeking shelter.


Wow.  Let me first apologize profusely for missing this the first time I read it.

You have read up on signs of stress in reptiles.  That's excellent.  I would love to discuss these signs with you in more detail.  

There are 12 recognized signs of distress and 9 signs of comfort.

Let's list them together...I'll go first.

_Sign of distress #1:  attempts to escape/seek shelter._

Your turn.

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_DVirginiana_ (06-02-2015),Enzo03 (06-09-2015)

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## Daigga

> ...but who do you think publishes those?


someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology.

Do you know what it takes to have an article peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal? These are traditionally written by experts in their respective fields after extensive studies on the topic.

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_Reinz_ (06-02-2015)

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## Skiploder

> I'm a bit curious as to why you think someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology would have nothing to offer me. I'm not saying your peer reviewed studies are wrong...but who do you think publishes those? Thankfully neither I or my snake need to see a proctologist however.


They are not MY studies.  They are studies by specialists in the reptile community that have dedicated parts of their career to studying reptile behavior.

A biologist or herpetologist most likely does not have a specialty in the field of reptile behavior.  The can study a number of things, but there are only a few dedicated herpetologists that have extensively studied how captivity affects the behavior of certain species of reptiles.

My mentor, for example, held a masters in Herpetology and a Doctorate in Biology.  His specialty was natural adaptations - feeding, mating, territory size - in locality animals of the west and southwest.  He also dabbled in central and south american colubrids.  He spent literally no time studying the effects of captivity on captive snakes.  

Do you understand this distinction?

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Gio (06-02-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-03-2015),_Shann_ (06-06-2015)

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## DVirginiana

Herpetologists, specialty zoologists, and the occasional ecologist are the ones that would publish behavioral papers or papers that deal with an animal's behavior in the wild.  A vet studies primarily physiology and pharmacology and, while they may have experience with reptiles if that is their specialty, unless they have a private collection that experience is primarily with sick or injured animals in a stressful setting.

Kind of like how a surgeon can operate on your brain, but if you have questions about the finer points of neurobiology and how it relates to behavior, you'd get better answers from an academic neuroscientist.

EDIT: Skiploder is 100% correct about how few people focus on how captivity affects behavior.  Most people studying at this level have a pretty specific area of expertise, and it usually isn't captive behavior.

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## Vanouri

> someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology.
> 
> Do you know what it takes to have an article peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal? These are traditionally written by experts in their respective fields after extensive studies on the topic.


I obviously said that dear. I'm quite aware as I hope to go into biology myself.

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## Vanouri

> They are not MY studies.  They are studies by specialists in the reptile community that have dedicated parts of their career to studying reptile behavior.
> 
> A biologist or herpetologist most likely does not have a specialty in the field of reptile behavior.  The can study a number of things, but there are only a few dedicated herpetologists that have extensively studied how captivity affects the behavior of certain species of reptiles.
> 
> My mentor, for example, held a masters in Herpetology and a Doctorate in Biology.  His specialty was natural adaptations - feeding, mating, territory size - in locality animals of the west and southwest.  He also dabbled in central and south american colubrids.  He spent literally no time studying the effects of captivity on captive snakes.  
> 
> Do you understand this distinction?


I never said they were YOUR studies. My whole point here is that I can raise my pets the way I want to without your input. The only way I will change how I raise them is if someone certified as a biologist, herpetologist, or veterinarian explains what I am doing is wrong and tells me to stop.

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## Reinz

> someone who has dedicated their life to reptiles or biology.
> 
> Do you know what it takes to have an article peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal? These are traditionally written by experts in their respective fields after extensive studies on the topic.


A HUGE key phrase here is "peer review"!  Dozens to much more articles and studies are rejected for every one accepted.  Just because the author(s) is/are a doctor or have their masters degree doesn't give them passage into a respected peer review journal.

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## Daigga

> I obviously said that dear. I'm quite aware as I hope to go into biology myself.


apologies, but you made it sound as though a scientific journal was like a Time magazine with a similar vetting process for contributing writers. 

As far as a vets opinion, I once had a "certified reptile vet" tell me to feed canned dog food and crickets to my iguana. Obviously not all herp vets are so heinously misinformed, but not all are so knowledgeable as you might expect.

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## DVirginiana

I'm a career biologist.  Ecologist specialty even.  Fairly extensive background in neuroscience.  Does that mean you now believe everything I said about reptile behavior?

You shouldn't because reptile behavior in captivity isn't my area of expertise.

The best advice you're going to realistically get is from people, like the ones who have commented here, that have decades of experience raising BPs.  Frankly, that experience trumps pretty much everything but the opinion of a very specialized academic when it comes to practical  care for your animals.  I'm not talking about myself here btw; my experience is primarily with colubrids, and there are some pretty big differences between their behavior and a BP's.

- - - Updated - - -




> As far as a vets opinion, I once had a "certified reptile vet" tell me to feed canned dog food and crickets to my iguana. Obviously not all herp vets are so heinously misinformed, but not all are so knowledgeable as you might expect.


WHAT.

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## Gio

> Then a certified Herpetologist or Biologist can tell me how to raise my snake, not someone over the internet. I'm sure vets have at least some knowledge on the subject as they must study each animal in order to take them as patients.



I haven't read much of this thread up to here, but I would not put a lot of faith in vets when it comes to reptiles. 

I have been feeding my dogs a raw food and bones diet for close to 20 years. Only in the last couple years do you see "vets" starting to advocate and understand dogs do much better on a diet that parallels the diet of a wolf. I find they (vets) are better at surgeries, and giving shots than a lot of other things. My vet, whom I like had zero knowledge of protection dog training, and behavior. Yet thought our animals were the best behaved dogs they treat.

Vets are great for repairing and treating things that happen to animals, but  they are certainly not always experts on all or specific types of animals.

That's a bit off subject, but I notice you have a grand total of "not very many" posts here, while Skiploder has many, and has been keeping, observing and studying various species of snakes for years. I believe even venomous. While posts aren't everything, because there are many that are just for compliments and such, reading Skip's past posts may be eye opening.

I'll try to keep this positive and all that, but you may not want to argue or push your point with somebody with his experience level. 

"Herpetologists and vets" probably don't venture into discussions about taking snakes for "walks", it may be cute and all, but even the most basic herp rules state snakes "tolerate" handling, and don't crave it, nor do they have the capacity to enjoy it. You may enjoy it, but that's the extent of it. 

We as pet owners can put human emotion into any animal we want to and sometimes we believe it relates to the animal's own feelings, which reptiles don't have.

Do as you please with your animals, everybody does, whether its right or wrong, but I think if Skip is offering advice over the internet, it may be good advice.


I read some advice about boa constrictors over the internet. It was from a man named Gus Rentfro. He's not a herpetologist or a vet, but as it turns out he happens to be one of the world authorities on boa constrictors.

To be honest this subject is a bit juvenile.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (06-02-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-03-2015),SteelPython (06-05-2015)

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## Skiploder

> I never said they were YOUR studies. My whole point here is that I can raise my pets the way I want to without your input. The only way I will change how I raise them is if someone certified as a biologist, herpetologist, or veterinarian explains what I am doing is wrong and tells me to stop.


Fair enough!

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## Sonny1318

Hey, can we get back to the proctologist ? Because this thread is really ....


Sorry Skip I had too.

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## DVirginiana

> Hey, can we get back to the proctologist ? Because this thread is really ....
> 
> 
> Sorry Skip I had too.


lol How did I miss that on the first read-through?

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_Sonny1318_ (06-02-2015)

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## Reinz

Now Y'all shouldn't be poking fun at Skip's proctologist comment.  As you can see it does apply to the animal kingdom!

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_DVirginiana_ (06-02-2015),Gio (06-02-2015),_Sonny1318_ (06-02-2015)

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## Jhill001

> Now Y'all shouldn't be poking fun at Skip's proctologist comment.  As you can see it does apply to the animal kingdom!


Well this really came full circle didn't it.

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EMSPrincess (06-03-2015)

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## dr del

And on that note I think this discussion is about done.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

If anyone thinks they have anything sensible and enlightening to add they can contact me and I may re-open the thread.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (06-04-2015),anicatgirl (06-03-2015),ballpythonluvr (06-03-2015),_DennisM_ (06-03-2015),_Eric Alan_ (06-03-2015),_GoingPostal_ (06-03-2015),John1982 (06-03-2015)

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