# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics > Is This A Morph? / What Morph Is This? >  Unknown until proven morph

## Kenj620

Hope I can prove this girl out to be the morph that I purchased her as. I would like to breed her this season and see some crazy results. Anyone have a guess on what she might be? I've tried to hear suggestions in another post but I'm still interested in what people think.

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## LotsaBalls

Where are you located? I have a male that looks just like her. Maybe we could hook em up.  :Smile:

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## python_addict

black pastel?

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## Redneck_Crow

Looks like mine and I think that he's a black pastel.

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## Driver

I could be wrong but I don't see a black pastel.  I do see some traits but not enough to convince me. Better pics would help for sure.

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## Ezekiel285

If that IS a black pastel you should start your own line (as long as there isn't already one like that). That's a pretty unique look IMO.  :Smile:

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## snake8myelbo

Post some belly shots!

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## evan385

I'm just not seeing black pastel. She doesn't have all the black squiggles in the alien heads that black pastels have. Also the pattern is similar but the color is off.

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## python_addict

i cant think of anything else lol i have no idea black pastel was the closest i could guess to it

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## Kenj620

She is supposed to be cinnamon, very excited either way!

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## heathers*bps

I was gonna say cinny, since she doesn't have the squiggles like a black pastel should. She is pretty though  :Good Job:

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## Jay_Bunny

She doesn't look like a cinnamon to me. Black pastel is more likely, though I'm not really seeing that either. Either way, she is pretty.  :Very Happy:

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## seeya205

Cinny and Black Pastel is the same morph!  Just like the Lesser and Butter!

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## evan385

> Cinny and Black Pastel is the same morph!  Just like the Lesser and Butter!


Cinnamon and Black Pastel are not the same morph. There is an obvious difference, at least it's obvious to me.

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_Pinoy Pythons_ (04-13-2012),_python_addict_ (12-04-2011),_satomi325_ (03-18-2012)

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## Ezekiel285

> Cinnamon and Black Pastel are not the same morph. There is an obvious difference, at least it's obvious to me.


I mean it really is like the Lesser/Butter thing. Black Pastels and Cinnys have just been different lines for so long that they look different, but if you look at them breeding to other morphs they produce all of the same things i'm pretty sure. for example Pastel X Black Pastel = Pewter and Pastel X Cinny = Pewter. They look a little different but not much.

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_seeya205_ (12-04-2011)

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## seeya205

> Cinnamon and Black Pastel are not the same morph. There is an obvious difference, at least it's obvious to me.


It's just selective breeding!  Just like Blonde, Granzini and Lemon are all just Pastels!  The Cinnamon Pastel(it was shorted to Cinnamon) and the Black Pastel was breed for certain traits but all came from the same gene!   Cinnamons are lighter and Black Pastels are darker!

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## PitOnTheProwl

my first thought was granite.......... not seeing and cinny at all. I am not too familiar with black pastels to judge there.

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## Wh00h0069

> If that IS a black pastel you should start your own line (as long as there isn't already one like that). That's a pretty unique look IMO.


Why would someone buy a morph that is sold as a morph, then start their own line?

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## Ezekiel285

> Why would someone buy a morph that is sold as a morph, then start their own line?


I meant later on if they breed it and the clutches keep looking like that. just because its sold as a morph doesn't mean it is... I've certainly never seen a black pastel or cinny quite like that.

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_Kenj620_ (12-04-2011)

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## Kenj620

Here are some pics I just took now, she is in shed. I'll take some better ones after she sheds.

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Ezekiel285 (12-04-2011)

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## Kenj620

After consideration of everything.....
I do consider her to be cinnamon and hope she proves out!

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## KingPythons

I would of guessed black pastel, cinny, or het red.

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## Kenj620

"I see the difference you are seeing .the second picture really has a better eye body pattern ,that makes nice contrast albino cinnamons ,I still believe her to be a cinnamon ,they are not related "

That was the response I got from the breeder when I asked about her unusual look

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## Kenj620

Here's a new one of her, shes ready to breed just waiting on the male now...

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## interloc

She doesn't look like a cinny to me. She doesn't have the cinny colored head and eye stripe like this:

Keep in mind this dude is a baby but def a cinny. Call me crazy but the snake in question looks kinda like a low grade yellow belly to me (no offense). The flames and a bit of checkering on the sides of her belly is what I'm backing this on. I have no pics of my cinnys belly but it's cleaner than that snakes. Just my opinion. 


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## interloc

In that new pic she has some squiggles visible and that would suggest black pastel. 


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## Kenj620

She doesnt have the cinny color but look at all the black pigment and how the black on the head extends to the neck where it's all blushed out... Def a hypermel in my opinion. She was sold to me as a cinnamon though...

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## interloc

In the last pic I see little black " ' around the alien heads. Those are tell tale black pastel identifiers. Also the blackness you are talking about is black pastel too. Cinnamons are BROWN. There is no brown on this snake anywhere in the pics. If she lays and makes brown babies I will eat my words. However IMO black pastel. 

A adult cinnamon from google images. It's brown not black. And no squiggles. 


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## Kenj620

I know what a cinnamon is supposed to look like but just because this snake don't look like one doesn't mean it wasn't produced from a cinnamon line, the breeder i got this girl from also sold me one of the best quality cinnamons I have seen

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## wolfy-hound

Not even baby out of a cinnamon is a cinnamon. It's a codom morph and produces normals.

I don't see cinnamon in that snake. It might be something, but I just don't see cinnamon. I do hope she produces something awesome when you breed her.

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## WingedWolfPsion

The main issue I see with this animal is the head.  The shape and color just don't look like a cinnie or black pastel.  The rest of it certainly could be.  Could be camera angles.

Could just be an odd individual, I suppose.  You won't know for sure until you breed it.

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## Kenj620

Yup just have to see what kinda offspring she produces...

Luckily I also have this girl to breed...


Tell me she ain't perfect =]

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## Kenj620

I'm really looking forward to this pairing!

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## SlitherinSisters

I agree, the head doesn't look right to me, cinny or black pastel. Cinny's and black pastels have funny looking heads, there is just something off about their head, shape and color. Cinny's are a lot easier to pick out by their heads, but even black pastels have different heads. My guess is that one of her parents was a black pastel or cinny and her pattern was affected by that. She's a gorgeous snake no doubt but I'm not so sure about cinny or black pastel. 

Here is my black pastel, you can tell her head is different from the norm even if it is subtle. The stripes along the sides of the head tend to be greyish, normals have a yellowy stripe.

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## bman123

It looks like a black pastel to me lol..

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

I don't see cinnamon there either. Cinnamons are one of my favorite morphs and I work with them. That animal, if it's anything, looks more like a black pastel. 


<---Signature--->
Snakes, Jeeps, Dragons, Nature, & Knives.. Makes my world go-round!

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## h00blah

Definitely not black pastel or cinny  :Good Job: 

Wish i could remember the morph name that this looks like... Relatively new morph.. Identical to this one... Sorry i'm no help  :Sad:

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## RobNJ

> :
> 
> Wish i could remember the morph name that this looks like... Relatively new morph.. Identical to this one...


Are you thinking of the Huffman?

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## h00blah

> Are you thinking of the Huffman?


Haha I never knew that "Huffman" was the name. It does look a lot like that morph  :Good Job:

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## Alex.B

i'd say a lesser or something she may have a phantom type gene just  hunch

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## Kenj620

Just took this pic today hope she produces some babies this year!

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## Slim

> i'd say a lesser or something she may have a phantom type gene just  hunch


Whuuuuut  :Confused:

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> Whuuuuut


I think he meant breed it to a lesser in case it's a phantom. In my opinion it does carry some phantom or "special" traits. If it were mine I'd first breed it to something in the blue eyed Leucistic  complex of snakes. Lesser, Mojo, Russo, Phantom, Special, etc.. 


<---Signature--->
Snakes, Jeeps, Dragons, Nature, & Knives.. Makes my world go-round!

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## WingedWolfPsion

> My guess is that one of her parents was a black pastel or cinny and her pattern was affected by that.


Your black pastel is gorgeous.  :Smile: 
It's not possible for a cinnie parent to contribute a cinnie pattern to one of its normal offspring.  The cinnie mutation is a single gene--if they have it, they're cinnie (pattern and color).  If they don't, they're normal (pattern and color).

The cinnamon and black pastel patterns are not selectively-bred traits, they're the result of just one gene.  Selective breeding might be used to produce a normal animal that looks very similar, but that would take a very long time, and no one has done it.

I do agree that the OP's animal just might be a Huffman, too.

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## Kenj620

The thing that makes it questionable if she's a cinny or not is the color, IMO good cinnys are brown. This girl has  so much contrast to her excessive amount of black pigment it's crazy. I never thought of any phantom/ special gene acting in there buts its deff a possibility. It's gonna be a little hard to prove out with the male I been breeding her with though lol

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## snakesRkewl

Does look similar to a Huffman, I don't see black pastel or cinny, interesting none the less, good luck OP.

It's amazing that some normals from a black pastel X normal breeding would carry the look of a black pastel but they do/can.
Floating elongated aliens etc...this is a normal from a black pastel X normal pairing, the dam had nothing about her that would indicate she would throw floating alien and elongated aliens...

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## Kenj620

Its funny that you guys would say Huffman, I got my first ball from chris Huffman, female het albino pushes 3000g love her lol

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## spasticbeast

It looks like a Trick to me.

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## Kenj620

> It looks like a Trick to me.


That's what I thought when I first saw the tricks

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## Kenj620

I think this pic shows her off good  :Wink:

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## fishboyUK

Looks like a fairly standard low expressioN black pastel to me. Not sure what the big mystery is.  :Razz:

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## Kenj620

She's supposed to be a cinny maybe just a very strange one. Next year I am going to try breeding her to a black pastel to prove her out.

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## BFE Pets

I was gonna guess Lori ball until i saw the post saying it was supposed to be a cinnamon. if you wanna look at the lori balls check out BHB reptiles. the pattern looks like a black pastel but the color just looks off but could be the camera. if you bought it as a cinnamon then black pastel is a good guess considering black pastel and cinnamon mutations are allelic meaning they share the same position on the chromosome.  breeding black pastel x cinnamon produces the same super as blk pst x blk pst and cinny x cinny.

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## rabernet

> Haha I never knew that "Huffman" was the name. It does look a lot like that morph


And the Huffman looks like a black pastel to me.  :Confused2:

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## h00blah

> And the Huffman looks like a black pastel to me.


To some people, black pastels look like cinnys. To others, phantoms look like mojaves. And to some other folks, including me, fires look like vanillas. The subtle differences are what really differentiate the morph. That's what's so cool about the subtle morphs. They can sometimes prove to be so much more  :Good Job: .

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## BPro927

Excellent looking snake, i hope you get everything out of her you desire!

~Brian

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## mdfreak2

I see a nice looking normal but good luck proving her out.

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PitOnTheProwl (04-29-2012)

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## Kenj620

She has never loved her water this much. Hoping for an ovulation soon!

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## Mike41793

> She has never loved her water this much. Hoping for an ovulation soon!


Cant see the pic Ken
What did you end up breeding her to?
I cant rmbr if i commented on the post already but she sorta looks like a black pastel to me!

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## Kenj620

No eggs from this girl this year....  :Sad:  I was really hoping from some babies but breeding season is coming up again soon so I am going to be pairing her up all season. Once the temps drop around sept/october I'll try introducing the male again. She hasnt been eating too much this summer, hopefully she starts regularly eating rats to get some weight up for the breeding season. 

here is a recent pic of her.

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## gsarchie

Sorry to hear.  I look forward to seeing if she throws anything next year.

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