# Other Pythons > Morelia >  What is a jag sib?

## coolguypat27

this has to do with carpets, what's a jag sib?

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## Ben Biscy

this is just a guess, i'm not way into carpets....

jaguar *i think* is recessive, jag sibs are hets for jag. apparently many jags and jag sibs have built in nuero issues, such as the jag sib i have. at first glance, mine seems to be in death throes, but he eats vigorously, just has a hard time with coordination and body control.

why are you asking?

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## Lucas339

this question was already answered in the other thread you started!!!
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=92279

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> this is just a guess, i'm not way into carpets....
> 
> jaguar *i think* is recessive, jag sibs are hets for jag. apparently many jags and jag sibs have built in nuero issues, such as the jag sib i have. at first glance, mine seems to be in death throes, but he eats vigorously, just has a hard time with coordination and body control.
> 
> why are you asking?


The Jaguar is a co-dom  :Wink:

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## MPenn

> this is just a guess, i'm not way into carpets....
> 
> jaguar *i think* is recessive, jag sibs are hets for jag. apparently many jags and jag sibs have built in nuero issues, such as the jag sib i have. at first glance, mine seems to be in death throes, but he eats vigorously, just has a hard time with coordination and body control.
> 
> why are you asking?


The jag gene is a co-dom. The jag sib just refers to a normal in the clutch that does not carry the jaguar gene. Kind of like pastel ball sibs. 
At one time, there was a belief that there was some magic in the sibs but has since been debunked.

And by the way, the sibs do not have neuro issues. I have no idea where you are getting your info.

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## Ben Biscy

> The jag gene is a co-dom. The jag sib just refers to a normal in the clutch that does not carry the jaguar gene. Kind of like pastel ball sibs. 
> At one time, there was a belief that there was some magic in the sibs but has since been debunked.
> 
> And by the way, the sibs do not have neuro issues. I have no idea where you are getting your info.


explain this one. he's eating fine, growing well, in shed right now. eating small mice weekly. stress him out and this is what you get....

YouTube - jungle carpet is sick

if that's not a nuero issue i don't know what is. however, i have minimal experience with carpets, i've never raised or collected them until this one, and i haven't gotten any more BECAUSE of this one. i saw another video of a breeder who had a jag with pretty severe nuero issues when stressed, in the video he showed it combating with another male, flipping upside down, over reaching, etc. basically just like mine, but adult instead of baby.

i get my info from drawing conclusions based on the things i see and the information i'm exposed to. two and two usually ends up being four.

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## Colin Vestrand

what michael meant was that they do not have any genetically passed expressed neurological conditions.  any snake can act like that if you drop them, expose them to high heat, chemicals, etc... or if they're just born with a defect.  

it has nothing to do with the jag gene... they're just normal carpets.

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Ben Biscy (06-16-2009)

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## asplundii

> what michael meant was that they do not have any genetically passed expressed neurological conditions.  any snake can act like that if you drop them, expose them to high heat, chemicals, etc... or if they're just born with a defect.  
> 
> it has nothing to do with the jag gene... they're just normal carpets.


If that is the case then why do so many jags seem to have this "tick" while relatively few normals have it? What are so many jag owners doing wrong to induce the condition that normal owners are not doing? And why, when jags cost $1-5k a few years ago, were serious keepers doing anything with such expensive animals that might put their animals at risk?

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## MPenn

> If that is the case then why do so many jags seem to have this "tick" while relatively few normals have it? What are so many jag owners doing wrong to induce the condition that normal owners are not doing? And why, when jags cost $1-5k a few years ago, were serious keepers doing anything with such expensive animals that might put their animals at risk?


No one is for sure why the jags have this "tick". It is believed to be similar to the spider ball. Both have a lethal super and the het (ie. jag and spider) is a carrier.
I will add that not all jags exhibit this behavior. It has been concluded that it can be brought on by stress (ie. chemicals, high heat, combatting).
I am not sure where you think that jag owners are doing something intentionally to produce bobble-head jags. Read above.

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## Colin Vestrand

> If that is the case then why do so many jags seem to have this "tick" while relatively few normals have it? What are so many jag owners doing wrong to induce the condition that normal owners are not doing? And why, when jags cost $1-5k a few years ago, were serious keepers doing anything with such expensive animals that might put their animals at risk?


i only meant it was not genetic as far as the jag SIBS go... i should have been more clear.  i agree that jags, themselves, have issues.

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## asplundii

Maybe I am misunderstanding Colin's post, but the way I read it he is saying that the "tick" in any animal, be it jag or normal, is _not_ genetic in nature but just something that is brought about by some kind of stress. 

Paraphrasing Colin above:




> they do not have any genetically passed expressed neurological conditions. any snake can act like that if... it has nothing to do with the jag gene


(Colin please correct me if I am reading your post wrong.)

If that is the case then it begs the question of, why is there a disproportionatly high number of jag with "ticks" vs. normals? To see that disproportion would mean, if the condition had no genetic link and is merely the result of a "stress", that more jags than normals are being exposed to said stress. I am not saying that jag owners are intentionally causing the stress, just that more jags than normals are being exposed to whatever stress it is that causes the condition. And I find it hard to believe that serious keepers, like the ones who invested high dollars into jags in the early years, would even accidentally allow their jags to encounter a stress event of that magnitude.

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## asplundii

Ah, I see Colin ninja'd me while I was replying to Michael.

I was indeed misunderstanding his initial post. My mistake there. Sorry about that Colin

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## Colin Vestrand

not a problem, like i said, i was not very clear... pretty sure we're all on the same page.  you know waaaay more about genetics than i do anyway.   :Wink:

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_asplundii_ (06-17-2009)

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## mainbutter

I thought I heard somewhere that the purity of coastal jags in the US was questioned, so rather than sell "normals" from a coastal jag x coastal as "coastals", they were marked as "jag sibs" so they did not sell animals that might not be pure coastal as such.

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## MPenn

> I thought I heard somewhere that the purity of coastal jags in the US was questioned, so rather than sell "normals" from a coastal jag x coastal as "coastals", they were marked as "jag sibs" so they did not sell animals that might not be pure coastal as such.



What was being questioned was if the founder jag was pure coastal or not.
The jag sib nomenclature was more for a description of what kind of breeding the animals came from. Hence, you will see, jungle jag sib, ij jag sib, or coastal jag sib (or just jag sib).

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## asplundii

> pretty sure we're all on the same page.


Definitely all on the same page  :Wink:

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## bhmorrill

That video honestly reminds me more of pythons I have seen in respiratory distress (RI problems) than it does of the spiders and jags I have seen spinning.  If I were to guess from that video alone, I would say your carpet has an RI, or is experiencing some other type of pain in its mid-body section.

I would like to know more detail about this animal directly from the person that owns it.  Like, did that just occur one day, or is it still occurring?  Any other info about how the little guy/girl is doing now?  That just doesn't look neuro to me because the animal seems to have good head control, the spastic movements seem to be coming from the mid-body section instead...but I very well could be wrong.

Off topic, nice sig line Travis!  You are more of a nerd than me (and I mean that in a good way).

Ben (almost PhD)

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_asplundii_ (06-19-2009)

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## asplundii

> Off topic, nice sig line Travis!  You are more of a nerd than me (and I mean that in a good way).
> 
> Ben (almost PhD)


You are on of the few people to get that on their own  :Good Job: 

I am fully nerd (I take that in a good way) and proud of it LOL.

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