# Site General > General Herp > Herp Broadcast >  Sad News

## Nvar

Speaks for itself.  Very sad and unfortunate for all.


http://www.clickorlando.com/news/19914383/detail.html

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## Hulihzack

Very sad indeed.  Hope it doesn't become food for HR669

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Whitney (07-01-2009)

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## Freakie_frog

Yep there is the proverbial straw I fear.

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## 2kdime

Its sad they threw the wild population deal in there, and how they're able to survive down there.

This is indeed a sad case. But this has nothing to do with the wild populations of Pythons.  Which are indeed a case of irresponsible keepers but are there not populations due to damage to stores from hurricanes and what-not?

This is a case of negligence and stupidity.

My heart goes out to they're family.

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## Jerhart

Where were the parents?

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_hoax_ (07-01-2009),_Mendel's Balls_ (07-02-2009),_pythontricker_ (07-03-2009)

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## monk90222

As a parent myself, my heart goes out to the family. My question is, based on the article, it was 10am and the parent was just waking up??? The 2 yr old girl was awake and able to move around the house with no supervision?

As a responsible snake owner, it really pisses me off that that snake was set up to fail by being in an enclosure that was NOT escape proof.

Its stuff like this that is going to ruin it for all of us.

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_2kdime_ (07-01-2009),_Chris Behof_ (07-01-2009),_CTReptileRescue_ (07-02-2009),DixiePythons (07-02-2009),_dmaricle_ (07-01-2009),_hoax_ (07-01-2009),_jglass38_ (07-01-2009),_pythontricker_ (07-03-2009),_SarahMB_ (07-03-2009),_Seneschal_ (07-01-2009),_stratus_020202_ (07-01-2009),TalkingMonkey (07-08-2009)

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## wilomn

Unless one of you was there then there is NO actual knowledge of how the snake was kept, what it was kept in, the condition of the parents (sober or what) or if waking up at 10 was the norm.

Maybe he worked nights. Maybe he left the cage open. Maybe someone else left the cage open. Maybe it was a poorly built cage. Maybe the kid opened it. 

Jumping to conclusions is very easy. Jumping to conclusions is also a good way to be wrong.

I'm sad the kid died, that's always tough. 

Of course, for a twelve foot burm, which we have no confirmation of, to try to eat a 2 year old, well, that's a hungry snake which does go right down the road to improper care BUT, having kept a few burms, some are just hungry all the time at that size.

It sucks but facts are lacking. I'd sure like to know how the snake got out.

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_Buttons_ (07-01-2009),_DM1975_ (07-01-2009),_scutechute_ (07-01-2009)

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

How incredibly tragic  :Sad:

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## Nvar

The things that could be said about this are endless but, from a hobbyist view point, we see this right after the article in the PalmBeachPost (see recent "Burm tests in SC" thread from Dreese88.  From the article:

"Gibbons said a human is "just another prey item" to a python — especially a small human. Pythons are constrictor snakes and have been known to eat people in their native areas of Southeast Asia, he added."

Such bad publicity/harm to our hobby!  But, of course, the real loss is to the family and the toddler!!

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_CTReptileRescue_ (07-02-2009)

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## OFRD_GRL

That is sad.. Poor family.

A good reminder to us to ensure all cages are secure though! And if you have kids, to be responsible and have locks on all cages!

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_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009)

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

Yeah- I have a kid, and I won't be owning any giant snakes. It's just not worth the risk IMO.

Sad for all. Kind of like when a dog bite happens, and the entire breed gets blamed. It's tragic, sad, and unfair- to everyone.

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_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009)

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## MarkS

I really hate to bring this up, but I really hope the authorities do an autopsy on the child.  It wouldn't be the first time a child died of abuse or neglect and the guilty parents tried to frame it on one of their pets.  

In any case it's very very sad.

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_hoax_ (07-01-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009),_MelissaFlipski_ (07-08-2009),TalkingMonkey (07-08-2009)

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## wilomn

> I really hate to bring this up, but I really hope the authorities do an autopsy on the child.  It wouldn't be the first time a child died of abuse or neglect and the guilty parents tried to frame it on one of their pets.  
> 
> In any case it's very very sad.


DOH!!!

I didn't even consider that possibility. Good catch.

Another reason not to jump to conclusions.

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_hoax_ (07-01-2009)

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## Chris Behof

I guess like my pit bull's, we must blame the deed, not the breed.

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_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-01-2009)

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## mainbutter

If a pet snake kills someone, the blame rests with the keeper.. unless extraordinary events (robbery, hurricane, ????) were ultimately the cause of a dangerous snake being allowed unsupervised around a vulnerable person.  This does not seem to be the case.

Poor kid, poor parents  :Sad: 

Still, this makes the news when dog attacks/deaths do not?

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## Ben Biscy

> I really hate to bring this up, but I really hope the authorities do an autopsy on the child.  It wouldn't be the first time a child died of abuse or neglect and the guilty parents tried to frame it on one of their pets.  
> 
> In any case it's very very sad.


that was actually my first thought when reading the article.

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_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009)

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## Nvar

Here's an interesting statistic (if true) from another reporting source.

"The Humane Society of the United States said including Wednesday's death, at least 12 people have been killed in the U.S. by pet pythons since 1980, including five children."

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## Qetu

100 % hands down without a doubt is the owners fault. regardless of how the snake got out...its the owners fault. owning these animals we all have to keep in mind...they are exotic wild animals. 

but the point about it possibly being the parents framing the snake, very very good point. 

im sorry for the parents if it was the snake that killed the baby..i really am. its very very sad. but them being her parents it is their responsibility to watch and care for her. as well as protect her. 

oh god i hope this doesnt turn out bad for us. if it does then dogs should be banned as well. even cats. agh! owner negligence simply pisses me off...

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## wolfy-hound

I'm very sad for the family.  The news here just said that the python "broke out of the glass aquarium", but... it's the HLN news, so we really don't know what sort of cage, and whether it was left unlatched, or if it was inadequate for the size python.

If anyone tried to use this as a "We should ban all pythons because a python killed the family toddler", then they should be asked when they will support a ban of all dogs, since WAY more dogs have killed family children than pythons.  With a total of 12 people killed by pythons in the past 29 years(assuming there is 12 people), I'm certain that dogs have killed close to 12 people in ONE year.

Of COURSE this will be used against the herp hobby, I almost find it suspicious that it happens right when the AR folks need a bad story.

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

12 people in 30 years is minimal. 

I say we ban cigarettes or how about cars! WAY more deadly than dogs, cats, or pythons!

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_hoax_ (07-01-2009)

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## Buttons

> 100 % hands down without a doubt is the owners fault. regardless of how the snake got out...its the owners fault. owning these animals we all have to keep in mind...they are exotic wild animals.


Can you fill us in with all the details the police, family and reporters have given you that we didn't get in the news article?

It would really help us so we could judge for ourselves if it really was the owners fault.

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## DarkComeSoon

was the burmese python housed in the same room as the child if it wasnt how did it get in the room

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## MsPrada

If not the owners fault, then whose? The snakes? Im sure he was being devious and wanted to show his lack of respect for authority.

The man didnt even have a permit. Or so we've heard. If thats the case he shouldnt have had the snake in the first place. Cant afford the $100 a year (then cant afford the snakes upkeep IMO) or just dont want anyone to know he has it? Didnt want people to know he didnt have the right cage or no-how for caring for it? Its a little suspect to me.

Poor child, poor mother. I cant even begin to know what it must feel like to lose your child, a toddler at that.

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_hoax_ (07-01-2009)

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## Whodinidunit

> I really hate to bring this up, but I really hope the authorities do an autopsy on the child.  It wouldn't be the first time a child died of abuse or neglect and the guilty parents tried to frame it on one of their pets.  
> 
> In any case it's very very sad.


Especially in the one article i read the caller said "The stupid Snake got out".

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## GenePirate

> Especially in the one article i read the caller said "The stupid Snake got out".


OH, the snaaake is stupid.  Thanks for clearing that up, caller.

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## Boanerges

A very sad and tragic event  :Tears:

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## Dusty

check out the video links on the page with that story. 
at the end of the 7 min. news clip it tells how pythons can get up to 
30 ft. and blah blah ( all while showing a picture of a ball python)  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

also at one point it was being called a boa

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## DM1975

> check out the video links on the page with that story. 
> at the end of the 7 min. news clip it tells how pythons can get up to 
> 30 ft. and blah blah ( all while showing a picture of a ball python) 
> 
> also at one point it was being called a boa


Same tactics as anti-gun activists. Any bad press that can be twisted is good for them. I fell sad about the baby but things happen. We can not keep people 100% safe at all times, and banning anything and everything under the sun we feel is deadly is no way to go about it. In life their are risks, we minimize them by being educated in what we choose to do. Sadly their are stupid people out there, and their are accadents that can and do happen to even the most educated of us. Welcome to life, get a helmet.

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## RebelYell83

sadly,,thats my local station.....

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## llovelace

From reading the news article, my question is.....if the incident happened around 10 a.m. where was her mother? sleeping?

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## joepythons

Isnt that just great a baby lost its life because of them idiots  :Mad:  :Mad: .So in all the baby died and the snake was killed because the owners were law breaking no common sense idiots  :Mad:  :Mad:

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## llovelace

She died because of an irresponsible parent/caregiver, like so many children do, this one just happened to involve an exotic animal

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Muze (07-02-2009)

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## MarkS

> Isnt that just great a baby lost its life because of them idiots .So in all the baby died and the snake was killed because the owners were law breaking no common sense idiots


The Python isn't dead. 

 "Authorities removed the snake from the home Wednesday afternoon. Once outside the small, tan home, bordered by cow pastures, the snake was placed in a bag then inside a dog crate. The snake was still alive.

Darnell did not have a permit for the snake, which would be a second-degree misdemeanor, said Joy Hill, a spokeswoman with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. He has not been charged, but Caruthers said investigators were looking into whether there was child neglect or if any other laws were broken.

Hill said the snake will be placed with someone who has a permit, pending an investigation into the girl's death."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...kfs5gD995TLSO0

Sounds like the authorities are being pretty careful in their handling of this.

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_MelissaFlipski_ (07-08-2009)

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## frankykeno

What a very sad occurrence.  I think Wes made a very good point earlier in this thread in that we should keep the speculation to a minimum if possible.  There's simply no knowing until investigative information is properly released (and then god hope it's actually reported correctly  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) how that snake and that poor child ended up together unsupervised like that.

As both a parent and an owner of a larger snake (9 ft female boa) all I can do is what we've always done here at home.  We thought a long while about the responsibilities of bringing Tequila into our home with our own younger child.  We made rules for her that are never broken under any circumstance.  We make sure she was caged appropriately and under lock and key.  Only Mike and I hold the keys to the padlock on her enclosure.  Tequila isn't even considered a giant but she is 9 feet of very, very powerful snake and we'd be both stupid parents and stupid snakekeepers to ignore or minimize that fact.

While my heart breaks for these parents I have serious questions in my mind about how and why that baby and that snake were in close and unsupervised contact at 10 a.m.

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_Buttons_ (07-01-2009),_hoax_ (07-01-2009),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-02-2009)

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## wilomn

I saw the video of them measuring that snake. It measured out at 8 foot 5 inches. Let's be generous and say 9 feet. Not that big for a burm. It was also on the thin side. I'd guess between 12 and 18 lbs. I've got an 8 foot boa that weighs 15 lbs, as of Monday, and is almost the same thickness as that burm. Let's be generous again and say 20 lbs.

Now, a 9 foot 20lb burm is NOT going to try to eat an average 2 year old human. Even if it was starving, that is simply too large a prey item to swallow unless that child was abnormally small.

I smell a big stinking heap of crap in their story.

But, I could be wrong. For the sake of the child, I hope I am. I would much rather think that an innocent slither just out being itself killed this child looking for a meal than the only other possibility; that the child was already dead, how I don't even want to know, and the snake is being blamed.

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_Buttons_ (07-01-2009),_MelissaFlipski_ (07-08-2009),_monk90222_ (07-02-2009),Muze (07-02-2009),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-02-2009)

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## MsPrada

> I saw the video of them measuring that snake. It measured out at 8 foot 5 inches. Let's be generous and say 9 feet. Not that big for a burm. It was also on the thin side. I'd guess between 12 and 18 lbs. I've got an 8 foot boa that weighs 15 lbs, as of Monday, and is almost the same thickness as that burm. Let's be generous again and say 20 lbs.
> 
> Now, a 9 foot 20lb burm is NOT going to try to eat an average 2 year old human. Even if it was starving, that is simply too large a prey item to swallow unless that child was abnormally small.
> 
> I smell a big stinking heap of crap in their story.
> 
> But, I could be wrong. For the sake of the child, I hope I am. I would much rather think that an innocent slither just out being itself killed this child looking for a meal than the only other possibility; that the child was already dead, how I don't even want to know, and the snake is being blamed.


Did anyone besides the father/mother see the snake on the child? Such as EMTS or police?

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## wolfy-hound

My local news did a piece on this, and went to a local reptile store.  It actually didn't seem too bad.  The pet store folks were pretty clear that owners were normally responsible, and that you were supposed to have a permit, and have locks on the cage, etc.

HOPEfully, it won't get too huge. Maybe the overwhelming focus on celebrity deaths will overshadow it.

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## sg1trogdor

Just great.  Thats all I will say.

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## Oroborous

Very sad...

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## hoax

> Where were the parents?


Exactly!




> Can you fill us in with all the details the police, family and reporters have given you that we didn't get in the news article?
> 
> It would really help us so we could judge for ourselves if it really was the owners fault.


It does not matter if some one broke in and let the snake out! It is the parents fault for not taking every necessary step possible.

Mike

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## kitsunex

it must be nice to live in your world where everything seems to be completely black and white.

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## Hock3ymonk3y

Actually that story just came on the news here a few minutes ago. I cannot believe that the snake escaped more than once, and the "responsible owner" just put it back in making no adjustments the escape-proof-ability of the cage  :Sad:  it just sickens me that this could happen and make all of us look bad. The owner was obiously not responsible: No liscence where it is required to have one, did not fix the cage so that the burmeese could not escape, and STABBING the animal even though it was most likely just a feeding response. Because the kid was 2 years old, they were very small...small enough to mabey resemble food or the large snake? 

I hope this doesnt catch the attention of TOO many or it could effect us in a very bad way  :Sad:  not that we aren't already looked down apon and frowned on

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## PythonWallace

That's a horrible and sad story, and not to jump to any conclusions or make accusations, the story doesn't seem to add up. The article said that there were multiple bite marks on the toddler. I don't know if that means a single bite with multiple teeth marks, but I took it to mean that there were several separate bites. Like Wes said, a burm that small would not likely find it's way to the babies room, mistake a toddler for food, then strike at it several times, clamping down each time, then constrict the toddler. I can't picture that scenario taking place. Especially since the dad said the snake has escaped multiple times in the past. Has anyone here ever had a snake escape, and not gotten to the bottom of the escape route and remedied the problem?

Then, the dad says he noticed the snake was gone, then went to check on his daughter, then stabbed the snake. These people are obviously not the brightest, but every owner of an 8 foot burm should know that it can be easily and quickly unwrapped in a situation like that, likely much faster than it would take to make the decision to go look for a weapon. I hope the police don't treat this as an open and shut case and just assume that this is a likely scenario if an 8 foot python gets out of it's aquarium. It just doesn't make sense.

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_hoax_ (07-02-2009)

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## wilomn

One report I read did say an autopsy would be done on the child.

There is no good ending to this but I do hope...well, hell, I don't hope anything right now. The kid is dead and for who knows what reason.

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_hoax_ (07-02-2009)

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## pavlovk1025

Local news story here is the same as the other ones I've read. It's been pretty unbiased but omg, the comments that people are leaving now are ridiculous. I replied to their ignorance with statistics regarding dog related deaths(239 1979-1998), automobile deaths( 2000/yr)  and neglect/maltreatment deaths (1760 in 2007). 12 people/5 kids in close to 30 years is not that big of a deal IMHO.

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_hoax_ (07-02-2009)

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## frankykeno

It simply blows me away that any reasonably sane, thinking adult would think it no big deal that a large snake was repeatedly escaping in their home, let alone a home with a very young child in it.  That's the same stupid mindset of people that do have dog attacks happen and then it comes out that their dog has been showing highly aggressive attitudes for years but "we never thought he'd actually bite a child".  My husand oftens says it and it's so true.  People ought to have at least two more working brain cells than the animals they choose to keep!

The sad part is a lot of people are going to use this against us.  Lawmakers will likely be quoting this case.  Most will not acknowledge that isn't about big snakes at all.  It may well be about neglectful parents, it certainly is about a neglectful and plain stupid snake owner.  Unfortunately that's not likely to be the focus since the image of a big snake wrapped around a tiny toddler is just too awful to see past for most people.  :Sad: 

I know for myself if this is brought up to me by non-snake owners I will be using it to help educate on proper snakekeeping.  Education is the key to help quell panic and mindless fear.

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_hoax_ (07-02-2009),_stratus_020202_ (07-02-2009),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-02-2009)

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## wolfy-hound

In my opinion the only way it woudl NOT be the owner's fault would be if someone broke into the home, broke the snake out of it's locked enclosure, but left it there without taking it.  Not a real likely schenario.

In Florida, the snake is supposed to be in a LOCKED enclosure, and most 2 year olds can't undo locks very well, especially if the key is elsewhere as it should be.  Was it locked up? Doubtful.  Multiple escapes? 

I'm sorry, but if I saw a 8 ft snake wrapped around a toddler, I might stab it too.  If I was not an experianced keeper, I might panic.  Knowing what I do about snakes and handling snakes, I would probably just unwrap it, or grab alcohol to get it off.. but if those did not work for some reason, yes.. you bet I'd stab it.  I'd just do a better job than he did.

Who knows? He might have even TAKEN the snake out and put it on/near his kid, thinking it would be cute for them to play together..people have done that sort of thing in the past.  Whatever happened in that home, it sadly led to the death of an innocent child, and it will be bad press for us.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-02-2009)

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

If a snake was harming my baby, never mind wrapped around him killing him, I would kill it, stab it, cut its head off. That Mama instinct is strong- and no snake, dog, or any other creature on this earth has my consideration if it's hurting/killing my child... THAT said... since I DO love animals and my child, I take utmost care that this will not ever be an issue. My child and my snakes are never allowed to make contact. Right now he cannot walk (he's three months old) so I don't worry too much, but we never hold the snakes except when he is napping or in bed for the night. We wash up carefully after we touch them, and we don't let them or their supplies contact anything he might touch. It's called being responsible! Once he can wander around, I plan to get one of those things so he can't open the door to the snake room, plus all the snakes are up where he can't reach them. In addition to that, we do not have any snakes larger than a four foot ball python. When our BRB and our JCP (both small babies) get large enough they could in any way EVER harm a child, they will absolutely be securely contained where he cannot reach them. Not to mention I would never have my child unsupervised... he co-sleeps in my room with me.

A few people on other forums who know I have snakes have asked how I could have these horrible creatures near my baby. People asked me this BEFORE this case happened! I get asked all the time, "How do you keep the snakes away from the baby/the dog?" Aside from my standard answers of, "I'm not an idiot" and "snakes live in tanks- they don't roam the house" I also explain that I do not keep large, powerful snakes.

People are soooo ignorant and uneducated, and their fear of snakes is so unfounded and bizarre. We have a long road ahead of us.

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_DM1975_ (07-02-2009)

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## dsirkle

Whatever actually occurred, it is certainly a tragic death and of course this incident will be used as an example by the proponents of 669.

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_hoax_ (07-02-2009)

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## Lucas339

so the local news in titusville (just outside of orlando) said that he was keeping the snake in an aquairum and it kept getting out so he put it into a snake bag and then but it back into the aquairum.

so everyone at work knows im into snakes and ive beening answering questions all morning.  not one of them knows of the ROC laws and most are biologist.  

its sad that this happened and is something we really don't need right now!

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## TheresaBearden

As a burm owner and breeder let me start by saying thank you to everyone here who understands the fault lies with the owner and not the snake. Needless to say our phones have been ringing off the hook and the most important point I try and make to someone is- IF THE SNAKE HAD ACCESS TO THE CHILD- THE CHILD HAD ACCESS TO THE SNAKE. Clearly irresponsible owners.

I am sorry this child was killed and my heart goes out to her.

However if the snake was not housed properly then I have no sympathy for the parents. I have listened to the broadcast over the news from central Florida and they stated the snake was put into a bag and placed into a glass aquarium. Where was the aquarium? Was that room locked?  Was the top placed on and locked? What size was the aquarium?  How was the bag secured? These are answers we may never get. An 8 foot burm is very strong-it can work itself out of a tied bag and it can push the top off an aquarium. 
I have burms, I also have children. If one of my burms were to get out and harm one of my children I would be responsible. I can not find it in my heart to feel sorry for these parents, in fact, (and I am sorry if I offend anyone) they should be charged with involuntary manslaughter if it is discovered they were not keeping and caging the snake properly.
No one deserves to lose a child but what were they thinking not keeping the enclosure locked and the room the snake was kept in locked?
Like I said I have children but from day one our enclosures have been locked, the room locked, and keys inaccessible to them.

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_AjBalls_ (07-02-2009),_cinderbird_ (07-03-2009),_DM1975_ (07-02-2009),_mainbutter_ (07-02-2009),_Purrrfect9_ (07-03-2009),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-02-2009)

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## frankykeno

I completely agree with you that the fault is firmly at the feet of this snake's owners.  Who in the world keeps a snake in a bag like that, in an enclosure the animal was clearly able to get out of repeatedly?  In an unsecured room where the snake obviously either had access to the child or the child had acess to the snake?  Who in the world isn't supervising a toddler at 10 a.m. in the morning when any experienced parent knows it's pretty darn rare for that age group to be sleeping safe in their rooms?  Idiots that's who!

Toddlers tend to get up early, are incredibly busy and curious at that age and simply can get into everything not locked or nailed down.  The more I'm reading about the facts of this incident the more I'm just sick at what was allowed to happen to this child by parents that, by any measurement of good sense, did not take the steps appropriate to protect their child.  Steps I might add that do NOT require you to be a rocket scientist for heaven's seaks - just to have a bit of good sense and a solid knowledge of the species of snake you are keeping.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-02-2009)

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## kazboots

Its sad that a child lost their life but it is clearly the fault of the snake owner. I do not have kids but I take more precautions for the safety of my cats then they did for their child, My snakes are kept in secure cages on the other side of a door. I firmly believe with larger snakes that a failsafe such as being in another room should be in place in case of cage failure. I even put mesh over the vent to ensure nothing could squeeze through there and enter the rest of the house.
 Even with the two 4ft RTBs that arrived with mites that had to be quarantined in my room with another cat who lives in there, I zip-tied the sliding lid shut and then duct taped another heavy mesh lid over it, is more precaution than it sounds like was made for the child. It may take me forever to get the cage open but at least I know they are not going anywhere. I dislike having them in there even with that security so as soon as the mites are gone they will be moved. 
I don't plan on ever having children, so my burm will not ever pose a threat to my children, but even if a child came to visit they would not be allowed to be in the animals rooms unsupervised for their safety and the safety of the animals. I had just adopted a dog the week before my friend's(and roommate at the time) 17 year old brother came to visit for a week and since I didn't know the dog very well yet or her reactions. He was only allowed near her when we were around, not that he couldn't have managed a 43pound dog, she was abused in the past and I just didn't want him getting hurt.
It is just so irritating because both the child and the snake were innocent and now the child is dead and the snake is being blamed.

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## kris62901

http://www1.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI124859

pretty sad story  :Mad:

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## Medusa

My prayers go out to the family. However I do see grave neglegence on the owners part knowing they had a child in the home, I think I forsee some type of manslaughter charge.

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## pavlovk1025

[QUOTE=kazboots;1091531]dog, she was abused in the past and I just didn't want him getting hurt.
It is just so irritating because both the child and the snake were innocent and now the child is dead and* the snake is being blamed.[/*QUOTE]


The snake is being blamed? Read the comments section on any website that is running the story...WE as snake keepers are being blamed. We are being blamed for having a hobby, an interest, a passion...by people who have no idea what they're talking about. I am saddened by the ignorance of these irresposible snake owners, and even more by the overall ignorance of those who do not understand our herp world. :Sad:

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-02-2009)

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## Muze

This is the equivalent of keeping a loaded gun on the coffee table.  All I have are BPs (and no children), but for the snakes' sakes, I make sure that they are in secure enclosures.  So far I have not had any escapees.

The snake cannot be blamed here.  It is a wild animal.  And , as all wild animals (especially of that size), it can be dangerous if not properly maintained.  As a matter of fact, when it comes to small children, almost any animal can be considered dangerous if not properly supervised.

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## kazboots

> The snake is being blamed? Read the comments section on any website that is running the story...WE as snake keepers are being blamed. We are being blamed for having a hobby, an interest, a passion...by people who have no idea what they're talking about. I am saddened by the ignorance of these irresposible snake owners, and even more by the overall ignorance of those who do not understand our herp world.


The snake is being blamed, it is portrayed as bad when it was not at fault, if that snake IS found to have killed the child under most laws it will be euthanized. We have been forced to kill dogs at the shelter for much much less. Dogs that were provoked by their owners and under proper circumstances would have never hurt anyone.

Yes, snake keepers are blamed for having them in the first place, and in the long run it will damage the hobby, the responsible ones are not the ones who make the news and rarely do most Non-Herp people hear of the precautions most of us take. The journalists just are not interested in "New Hampshire couple raises 16 Burmese Pythons and 3 children safely"<made that up<

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## Chefranelli04

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/sto...7986040&page=1

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## Qetu

oh god.....

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## wolfy-hound

How would the snake go all the way to the crib and get in? That sounds horribly suspicious to me.  Snakes don't roam around in the open normally when they get loose, they creep along walls and find spots to hide.

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_Buttons_ (07-02-2009),_mainbutter_ (07-02-2009)

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## mainbutter

> How would the snake go all the way to the crib and get in? That sounds horribly suspicious to me.  Snakes don't roam around in the open normally when they get loose, they creep along walls and find spots to hide.


too true.  Something smells fishy.

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## DM1975

Does anyone else think that snake looked pretty thin for its size? I wonder how much and how often he fed it?

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## FlowRock

This story crossed the ocean, today at the petstore,  when I got some stuff for my new leopard gecko!!, a guy insulted me to keep "childkillers", I did not know what the heck he was trying to tell me, except that he wanted to get into trouble, until now.

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## JAMills

Well He we go...Burmese python gets out and kills a child in Florida!

http://www.nj.com/parenting/eric_ruh...ills_baby.html

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## JAMills

Here is the link to another story covering it

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...rl-aged-2.html

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## dr del

Hi,

Theres a discussion thread on the story in the giant python section.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...threadid=95348 


dr del

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## joshn6805

Yea its been posted all ready, its very tragic news. Just another irresponsible owner putting our hobby in jeopardy. Just more fuel for the fire.

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## MarkS

> Hi,
> 
> Theres a discussion thread on the story in the giant python section.
> 
> http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...threadid=95348 
> 
> 
> dr del


Not really sure WHY this was moved to the giant python section when it is very clearly a story about the media rather then just a story about a giant python, but thank you to whoever moved it back here.

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## dr del

J'accuse Deb,  :Razz: 

She was on the ball by the time I even thought about it.  :ROFL: 


dr del

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## CTReptileRescue

Hi all,
This is horrible to hear. Our community mourns for the snake and the child. I actually received a call today about this. Someone asked me to take in their Burm because they feared for their own childs safety.
No words can even be said to how I feel about this. I have always disliked the media in this country (as much as I dislike irresponsible pet owners). I do hope this hype dies down soon.
Rusty

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> J'accuse Deb, 
> 
> She was on the ball by the time I even thought about it. 
> 
> 
> dr del


Guilty as charged  :Wink:  moved back and merged all in one  :Wink:

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## wilomn

> Well He we go...Burmese python gets out and kills a child in Florida!
> 
> http://www.nj.com/parenting/eric_ruh...ills_baby.html


I commented on this story, asking if the author always wrote through ignorance and bigotry but it seems to have hit a filter and not posted.

Sometimes I hate people and the stupidity that they embody.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

USARK press release following this tragic incident




> USARK Florida Python Press Release
> 
> 
> For Immediate Release
> 
> For questions contact:
> 
> Andrew Wyatt
> president@usark.org
> ...

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_mainbutter_ (07-03-2009),_MelissaFlipski_ (07-08-2009),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-03-2009)

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## wilomn

> I commented on this story, asking if the author always wrote through ignorance and bigotry but it seems to have hit a filter and not posted.
> 
> Sometimes I hate people and the stupidity that they embody.


My mistake, it did post.

I still feel the same about people like him though.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-02-2009)

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## pavlovk1025

> My mistake, it did post.
> 
> I still feel the same about people like him though.


He replied with a simple yes. What a character.

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## wilomn

Saw that. The guy is obviously uninformed.

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## frankykeno

Mike and I have already received concerned calls about snakes and safety around children.  The crazy thing is this....




> The National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Humane Society of the United States recently updated data on fatal dog bites for the period 1989 to 1994. 
> 
> In the 6-year study published in the medical journal PEDIATRICS (Vol.97 No. 6, 891-5), Jeffrey J. Sacks, M.D. and associates reported the finding of 109 bite-related fatalities. They found that 57% of the deaths were in children under 10 years of age. 22% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog OFF the owner's property. 18% of the deaths involved a restrained dog ON the owner's property, and 59% of the deaths involved an unrestrained dog ON the owner's property. 
> 
> The researchers also found that 10% of the dog bite attacks involved sleeping infants.


*109 fatalities over only 6 years*.  10% of them being sleeping infants.  57% of the victims were children under 10.  59% of dogs that killed people were on their own properties.

Yet not one person I've spoken to would even think to suggest that my owning a 75 lb Labrador Retriever who has free range of our home is a statistically dangerous pet to own.  Why don't people get reality?  All this fear surrounding snakes and yet Fido the mutt is in actuality a far great risk to your children on a daily basis.

***This study by the way was an update on a previous study covering the period from 1979 to 1996 in which more than 300 dog bite fatalities occurred.  That paper can be found here.....

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

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_littleindiangirl_ (07-13-2009),_MelissaFlipski_ (07-08-2009)

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## Denial

I was informed about this very early before even waking up my phone was ringing off the hook from every family member asking if I own burmese pythons and if my children are ok. Im actually fed up with all this crap. I have no sympathy for the parents. When you become a parent you lose your right to sleep to 10am. I have a 5 year old and 2 year old and have not slept to 10 in 5 years. When the child gets up YOU get up. I see no danger in keeping large snakes with children. When you keep them properly like you should the danger in big pythons stops. You lock your snake room you lock there cages you keep them in cages not fish tanks. When you become a parent you protect that child at all costs and if you are keeping a potentially dangerous animal you need to make sure there is no possible way that child could ever end up being that animals dinner. This is nothing but a bunch of idiots ruining our hobby because they cant keep there snakes put up like they should. The story seems fishy to me I own a number of burms and Ive got to tell you when it comes to food mine dont miss a strike often usually it only takes one strike not multiple strikes. I wish people would just keep there animals like they should. Everytime this happens both my faimily and my wifes family give us hell for it. Well I cant help it that two morons let there snake kill there baby or killed there baby and blamed the snake (it would be very easy) but if I thought for a second that one of my snakes may possibly be able to kill one of my children I wouldnt own them!

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-03-2009)

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## Ben Biscy

does anyone know when the results of the autopsy will be released?

i agree with the parents being totally at fault. i think that the emphasis should be on the fact that they DID NOT have a proper enclosure, a lock, a locked room, OR a permit to have it. the parents own the responsibility of both the child and the animal, and they should be charged on both the child's death and abuse/mistreatment to the animal, in addition to charges they face for not having proper permit.

imo, this is open and shut. who with any common sense would say the snake, ergo all snake owners are at fault?

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## SilverWolf

First I am very sad that a child has lost their life due to poor choices from adults. 

But as I read the different stories posted on this thread they all seem to state the owner of the snake was the boyfriend, not the father of the child. So I don't understand why the mother of this child before even living with this guy didn't make sure the snake(s) were secured in the proper way. (And if she didn't know what the proper way was do research of her own to find out) Then, after it escaped the first time didn't remove the child from the home until it was secured properly.  
Actually I guess it shouldn't surprise me since so many children are killed/hurt by their own parents all the time. But still, I hope both the mother and the boyfriend as owner of the snake are charged and put in jail for this.  Because of their neglect an innocent child is dead.  

As for the snake I hope it recovers from it's stab wounds and is placed with a responsible owner. One who will take care of it and protect it the proper way.

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_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-03-2009)

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## dmaricle

dont you love when people who dont own, like,or even see snakes act like they know more than you. today i was out and my father was like did you hear about that little girl. i said yes that is very sad and he said does that scare you since you have a kid on the way and i said no. my snakes cant kill a person ( all i have are balls) i added they dont get that big and he said bull they will get like 15 foot long, i just started laughing, and brought him to my home to show him our 3000 gram girls and explained that they dont get to much bigger than that. i just thought it was funny how quick he questioned my judgement considering he hates snakes and i have raised them for over 7 years.

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_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-03-2009)

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## Ben Biscy

that just seems to be the norm. the less someone knows, the more they are willing to tell you how wrong you are.

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_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-03-2009)

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## dmaricle

> that just seems to be the norm. the less someone knows, the more they are willing to tell you how wrong you are.


oh i know i have seen it all i have had people run from me screaming. i even had a woman walk up to my wife and tell her that she is sickening.  i even had one guy act like he was going to hit me lol and we were not doing anything. but hey thats just how some people are.

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## Lolo76

> Unless one of you was there then there is NO actual knowledge of how the snake was kept, what it was kept in, the condition of the parents (sober or what) or if waking up at 10 was the norm.
> 
> Maybe he worked nights. Maybe he left the cage open. Maybe someone else left the cage open. Maybe it was a poorly built cage. Maybe the kid opened it. 
> 
> Jumping to conclusions is very easy. Jumping to conclusions is also a good way to be wrong.


I agree it's wrong to judge without all the details, but I'll go back to _part_ of the comment you're replying to - regardless of the family's schedule, why is a 2 year-old awake and "loose" without supervision? Forget the snake, why isn't anyone watching the kid? My niece is almost 2 years old, and if she's sleeping her bedroom door is securely closed... and when she wakes up, so does my sister or brother-in-law. Just sayin'.

No matter what the details are, my heart goes out to the little girl's family... what a horrible tragedy.  :Sad:

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## BPHERP

Snakes, guns, whatever, etc...

...it had better be locked up like fort knox, or its the parents fault and they should be charged with a crime.

BrandonsBalls

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_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009),_MelissaFlipski_ (07-08-2009)

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## BPHERP

> dont you love when people who dont own, like,or even see snakes act like they know more than you. today i was out and my father was like did you hear about that little girl. i said yes that is very sad and he said does that scare you since you have a kid on the way and i said no. my snakes cant kill a person ( all i have are balls) i added they dont get that big and he said bull they will get like 15 foot long, i just started laughing, and brought him to my home to show him our 3000 gram girls and explained that they dont get to much bigger than that. i just thought it was funny how quick he questioned my judgement considering he hates snakes and i have raised them for over 7 years.


I think its easy to under estimate a 3000/4000G ball, which I think could kill and infant or toddler, given the circumstances that would allow for such a tragedy.

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## DM1975

My parents are so scared of snakes that they know I have ONE ball python and it freaks them out. I don't think I could ever tell them I have several, let alone the boa constrictors, especially with us having our third baby here any day now. I have tried to educate them on snakes but they wont listen, but then again they deal with rattle snakes out on their property all the time and I am sure that has a lot to do with it.

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## wolfy-hound

According to one news report, they guy said it "got in the baby's crib" so if the baby was in the crib, the baby wasn't wandering around.  But also... in antoher news report he said he found the child missing, and went looking for her and found her and the snake.
If the snake got loose... went however far it was to the crib, and climbed into the crib to kill the child.. then the parents were not supposed to be supervising the child, they were all still sleeping in bed(10 am or not, lots of people sleep in later than those of us that have to get up at 7am etc).

I tend to think that something is fishy, since I can't imagine even a hungry burm going TO a crib to climb in and attempt to kill/eat a 2 year old.  Perhaps the father misspoke in the heat of the moment, saying one thing, and meaning another, after all, his daughter was dead.

I'm still astounded at the double standard of the general public.  "See? You shouldn't be allowed to keep those snakes!" and I point out that dogs have killed as many people in a single year, so are they going to insist no one should own dogs... and they just shake their heads in disgust, as if *I* am missing some point.  Am I missing a LEGITIMATE point? I don't think so.  I think it's just the ingrained distrust of reptiles, creating that double standard.

At least the celebrity deaths have overshadowed this incident, perhaps it will fade before it gets too much attention.

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_dmaricle_ (07-04-2009),_Jason Bowden_ (07-07-2009),_littleindiangirl_ (07-13-2009)

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## Jason Bowden

I think it is a case of neglect and the owners of the snake/parents of the child should be punished by law.  My sympathy goes out to them for their child being killed, but THE SNAKE GOT OUT OF ITS ENCLOSURE BEFORE.  It was stated in the article that the snake had even gotten out earlier that morning.
Jumping to conclusions is easy to do in this case.  GOD forbid this is a cover up of some kind of child abuse.  I see neglect as a form of abuse!
I see permits and regulations(lockable enclosures, etc) in the future. At least for anything over six feet(IMO).  Hopefully this doesn't effect the keeping of harmless reptiles including ball pythons.

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## rebeccabecca

I have been told my snake's are as deadly as a pitbull( hahaha). Not many corn's and small male ball's have caused much damage. We keep out pixie frog under lock and key though ( 4 year old's fingers can be tasty :Smile:  and will be building a wall with a lock and double locks on the enclosure for my savannah monitor just in case.BTW When my kids were babies, I kept the doors shut so that no animals( even cats) can get in. I would be forsure closing the door with a huge snake in the house.

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## MelissaFlipski

I just can't stand it anymore; I have to reply with having only read 1/2 of this thread.  Let me step up to the soap box for a minute.

Ever since I heard about this story, I've just been sick with anger and disgust!




> I really hate to bring this up, but I really hope the authorities do an autopsy on the child.  It wouldn't be the first time a child died of abuse or neglect and the guilty parents tried to frame it on one of their pets.


This was my first reaction, too.  As Wilomn said, that Burm was only 8.5 feet long.  Unless it wanted warmth and somehow managed to be a bit of a "rough snuggler" (sarcasm in voice), this doesn't make any sense!  And the keeper said in his 911 call that the snake is 12 feet long.  How can he not know his own snake????  Anyway...




> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...kfs5gD995TLSO0


In that link, the article says this, "Burmese pythons are not native to Florida, but they easily survive in the state and can reach a length of 26 feet and weigh more than 200 pounds."  WHAT???!!!  Thanks a lot you irresponsible media folk for making the public more freaked out about snakes!

The bad apple (the owner of the FL Burm) ruins it for all of us.

I feel horrible for the toddler who had her life shortened.  I feel sad for the mom (though I have my concerns there, too).  I have nothing but *anger and contempt* for the owner of that burm - insufficient and/or insecure tank, no permit, no supervision, and no attempt to correct the mistake they already knew about -  the snake had already escaped before.

Regardless of what happens with the cause of death, these people should be charged with neglect and reckless endangerment!!  Even with all the apparent holes in this case, my concern is that when and if the snake is ever cleared, there will be no big media blitz to correct the original misinformation.  All the public will remember is how horrible snakes are!!

I am so angry about this!!  It undoes some of the much needed progress the reptile community has made with the "uninformed and afraid."

I'll step down now.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-13-2009)

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## Bobsean

Hey, going along with the results of this incident. Did everyone see this? http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...threadid=96402

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## guambomb832

Yup I did bobsean...I was the first to comment it....
Damn people ruining it for the good people of the reptile community.
I mean I wouldn't even think of putting a two year old in the same house of a snake over 6 feet long, that's just common sense.
Also in the news story, the owner said "The stupid snake got out in the middle of the night and killed my girlfriend's daughter" now he is referring to it as stupid?I hope this guy goes to jail for indirectly killing a toddler with his own stupidity!
Its these stupid irresponsible owners that make US all look like a bunch of weird people who just like snakes because they eat rats or rabbits, get to massive lengths and girths(although the majority of captive snakes don't) and pose a serious threat to the owner and the family.
This really gots to stop right now, or we lose this hobby for good.

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## MarkS

> Damn people ruining it for the good people of the reptile community.
> I mean I wouldn't even think of putting a two year old in the same house of a snake over 6 feet long, that's just common sense.


Now why in the heck would you even say something like that?  Have you ever even kept a snake longer then 6 feet?   Large snakes are no more dangerous then large dogs, yet millions of households keep them in the same house along with their young children.  Just a few COMMON SENSE rules and they are just as safe to keep as anything else that could be potentially harmful if mishandled or misused.  For crying out loud people, these are not some demons from the nether regions out hunting for toddlers to eat, they're just animals.  If you're going to make statements out of ignorance, please do everyone a favor and DON'T HELP....

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## Clever Baby Dragon

I would tend to agree with some of the other users on this post, that there is a lot of details that are missing here, it all seems a bit fishy.

One thing to remember is that we have no guarantee that the newspeople are reporting this completely accurately, its very easy to make a small mistake over the details of a 911 call, especially if you are getting it second hand for any reason.

Second, I'm not a burm expert, but I didn't think an 8-9 foot snake would consider eating a toddler sized object, especially one that didn't smell like normal food, so if it did, what triggered the feeding response?  Was the snake just so hungry that it didn't care any more?  In that case why was the poor animal being starved, and the owner can add animal neglect to his list of charges.

Third and this has been said a dozen times, how did the snake and the kid come into contact?

Fourth what lead up to the attack (we'll probably never find out), was this a case of a child walking in on a starved snake, did the toddler accidentally stress the snake, causing a defensive bite that devolved into a more serious feeding attempt when the child struggled, was this just a really badly treated (and resultantly aggressive) snake?

I am sincerely sorry for the mother and her child, but hope that cooler heads prevail in reacting to the incident.

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## guambomb832

To MarkS,
I am sorry
it was a "heat of the moment" message
I meant if it escaped before and didn't fix the cage and just put it in a bag in the cage he is totally at fault here.
I know snakes over 6 feet wouldn't want to hurt anyone.
I just don't like how they are known to be man-eaters.
I know what I said was way out of line( I typed it pretty late last night, I was tired)
but I want to help stop this python ban that Bill Nelson is proposing.

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## alexOATH

This story was terrible, idiotic people should not be allowed to own such large snakes, or snakes at all for that matter.

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## MarkS

> To MarkS,
> I am sorry
> it was a "heat of the moment" message
> I meant if it escaped before and didn't fix the cage and just put it in a bag in the cage he is totally at fault here.
> I know snakes over 6 feet wouldn't want to hurt anyone.
> I just don't like how they are known to be man-eaters.
> I know what I said was way out of line( I typed it pretty late last night, I was tired)
> but I want to help stop this python ban that Bill Nelson is proposing.


I'm sorry to snap at you like that Christian, it's not just you. It seems that there have been a number of people here and on other forums who have been making statements to the effect that people with small children shouldn't be keeping giant constrictors and I just disagree with that so much, it just helps spread the fear and ignorance.  There are so many other things in the average household that can be just as or more dangerous then Burmese pythons. Anything from household cleaners to insecticides to medicines to firearms or even just plain old bathtubs and stairs. Don't even get me started on electrical outlets.   But the point is, as long as you always practice 'safety first' you really shouldn't  have a problem.  

Keeping large constrictors is not for everybody, but it's really not rocket science either, and if you want to try it it's not that difficult to stay safe by following a few basic rules.

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_llovelace_ (07-14-2009)

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