# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics >  Cinnamon VS Black Pastel

## pythonkeeper16

Is there a difference between a Cinnamon and a Black Pastel? Because I was going to buy a Cinnamon to breed with my lemon pastel. Which would give me Pewters correct? Then if i bred a Pewter to my lemon pastel I would get Silver Streaks correct? If im wrong please help me out lol. im looking at making pewters and silver streaks so whatever I need to go with my lemon pastel thats what ill get.

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## Oxylepy

There are minor differences, but you get similar designer morphs with them.

Personally I would take a Black Pastel over a Cinnamon any day. They take what Cinnamons do and do it 20x better. The blacks are blacker and cleaner, which should make Silver Bullets that arent splotchy. The super should make a brilliant all white snake if it were also albino.

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## Haydenphoto

I would say there the same kinda like the butter and lesser !

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## Oxylepy

> I would say there the same kinda like the butter and lesser !


If the butter always produced dirty BELs  :Razz: 

http://www.grazianireptiles.com/coll...ullet-4-tn.jpg
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...on-pastel.html
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...er-pastel.html


Black Pastel
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=black+pastel
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=black+pastel
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=black+pastel
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...+pastel&page=2

They're just better.

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## MarkS

personally I think there are significant differences between the two as regards color and pattern, however they both modify the same gene in similar ways.  I've got both now and if I didn't know any better, I'd swear they were two completely different mutations just on looks alone.  They might be considered alleles, different mutations of the same gene, similar to the differences between Lesser Platinums and Mojaves.

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## WildCreations

So let me ask this question, what happens genetic/morph wise if you start the line with Cinny's and then add black pastels?

Cinny X Pastel = Pewter X BLK PST = ??????

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## Oxylepy

I think the double hets are also all black snakes like the hom of either.

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## MarkS

> So let me ask this question, what happens genetic/morph wise if you start the line with Cinny's and then add black pastels?
> 
> Cinny X Pastel = Pewter X BLK PST = ??????


A snake that is both cinnamon and black pastel produces a black snake just like a snake that is both lesser platinum and mojave produces a white snake.  (both  are different mutations of their same respective gene)

Well, by my calculations there would be 8 different possibilities.  

Pewters that were cinnamon x pastel
Pewters that were black pastel x pastel
Cinnamons
Black Pastels
Pastels
Normals
Pastel black snakes (pastel + cinnamon + black pastel) (I don't know what these are called) 
black snakes (cinnamon + black pastel) (Not sure what these would be called either)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

It comes done to personal taste, I am more of a Black Pastel myself.
As for breeding.

Pewter from Cinny bred to a Lemon will not give you a Silver Streak but the sterling  :Wink: 

Black Pewter (Pewter from Black Pastel) bred to a Lemon is the pairing that will give you a Silver Streak.


Little recap on Cinny and Black Pastel pairing

Cinny x Cinny make the Super Cinny

Cinny x Pastel make the Pewter

Pewter x Pastel make the Sterling

Pewter x Cinny make the Silver Bullet

Black Pastel x Black Pastel make the super Black Pastel

Black Pastel x Pastel make the Pewter (Black Pewter)

Black Pewter x Pastel make the Silver Streak

Black Pewter x Black Pastel make the Silver Bullet

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pythonkeeper16 (10-29-2009),RustlewoodReptiles (09-09-2014)

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## PythonChick

I am a big cinnamon fan. But I am also a fan of dark cinnamons. I think you have to look at individual animals just like you do with any morph. For example, my cinnamon breeder female is very dark and very clean, and produced some pewters with the same traits. See pictures below:

Mom as a baby:




Mom as adult:


Pewter Baby:


Other Pewter Baby:


Cinnamon Baby:

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Cin (10-04-2016)

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## dreese88

Oxy - that 2nd picture you listed for Cinny's, the Super Cinny from Nerd is pretty clean & black. You also make it sound like all Black Pastel combos are superior...I disagree


She is much more silverish grey now. The only pewter I've seen that's nicer than that are the ones that Albey is still hiding in his racks.

Also, Sterlings destroy Silver Streaks in the looks category...I mean...
Albey's Sterling

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## Oxylepy

> Oxy - that 2nd picture you listed for Cinny's, the Super Cinny from Nerd is pretty clean & black. You also make it sound like all Black Pastel combos are superior...I disagree
> 
> 
> She is much more silverish grey now. The only pewter I've seen that's nicer than that are the ones that Albey is still hiding in his racks.
> 
> Also, Sterlings destroy Silver Streaks in the looks category...I mean...
> Albey's Sterling


Sorry I have this little love affair going with the IanG line of black pastels as it is probably going to be one of my next couple snake purchases. And all of the silver bullets and supers of cinnamons I have seen look splotchy, hence my dislike for the Cinnamon morph (on an asthetic level, not the snakes themselves)

And it's the third super cinny on the NERD site that looks really dark.

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## OhhWatALoser

until proven otherwise....different line of the same morph

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## West Coast Jungle

Here are an adult cinny and black pastel next to each other.

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## West Coast Jungle

> Here are an adult cinny and black pastel next to each other.


To me they are way more different then the lesser and butter comparison :Wink:

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## MarkS

> To me they are way more different then the lesser and butter comparison


I agree, but then again I believe that the lesser and the butter are the same thing.  I think the lesser and mojave comparison is a better one.   :Good Job:

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## luna13

they are both hotties but i prefer cinnys, i just purchased one a week ago and im super happy

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## OhhWatALoser

> I agree, but then again I believe that the lesser and the butter are the same thing.  I think the lesser and mojave comparison is a better one.



mojave is what they call a deluted gene. lesser and mojave are different, but lesser x butter is the same thing as cinny x black pastel, same morph different line.

i can put 2 normals next to each other that will look way more different than the cinny/black pastel you posted above, could probally find pastels that look more different. there are cinny/black pastels that look pretty similar.

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## Auletto

I'm a big fan of the cinnies, but this year I've seen some killer black pastel. Here's a few pictures of my 2007 cinny pair.

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## pythonkeeper16

Thanks everyone for your help. I am probably going to go with the Black Pastel just because of the Silver Streak. I like the potential outcomes of Black Pastel X Lemon Pastel more then the Cinny X Lemon Pastel. :Dancin' Banana:

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## WildCreations

> A snake that is both cinnamon and black pastel produces a black snake just like a snake that is both lesser platinum and mojave produces a white snake.  (both  are different mutations of their same respective gene)
> 
> Well, by my calculations there would be 8 different possibilities.  
> 
> Pewters that were cinnamon x pastel
> Pewters that were black pastel x pastel
> Cinnamons
> Black Pastels
> Pastels
> ...



Ok so the pewters would all look the same even though they may have cinny or black pastel behind them?

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## Oxylepy

> Thanks everyone for your help. I am probably going to go with the Black Pastel just because of the Silver Streak. I like the potential outcomes of Black Pastel X Lemon Pastel more then the Cinny X Lemon Pastel.


Go look and see if you can find one from IanG at Outback Reptiles.

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## MarkS

> mojave is what they call a deluted gene. lesser and mojave are different, but lesser x butter is the same thing as cinny x black pastel, same morph different line.
> 
> i can put 2 normals next to each other that will look way more different than the cinny/black pastel you posted above, could probally find pastels that look more different. there are cinny/black pastels that look pretty similar.


Not it's not.  I've never heard of mojave being called a diluted gene. It's simply a different mutation of the same gene that lesser is a mutation of. 

Sure, there is quite a bit of variability in ball pythons, but, for the most part,  a normal is obviously a normal, a cinnamon is obviously a cinnamon and a black pastel is obviously a black pastel.  I think it is pretty easy to distinguish the differences between most cinnamons and most black pastels, which to my mind makes it a different mutation.     




> Ok so the pewters would all look the same even though they may have cinny or black pastel behind them?


Personally I think they look different and I think most of the time (not always of course, as I mentioned above there is quite a bit of variability in ball pythons)  it's easy to distinguish between pewters made with black pastels and pewters made with cinnamons.

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## harm286

I think a cinny X black pastel make the best black balls or aka 8ballz

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## hross

they are both great morphs!

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## OhhWatALoser

> Not it's not.  I've never heard of mojave being called a diluted gene. It's simply a different mutation of the same gene that lesser is a mutation of. 
> 
> Sure, there is quite a bit of variability in ball pythons, but, for the most part,  a normal is obviously a normal, a cinnamon is obviously a cinnamon and a black pastel is obviously a black pastel.  I think it is pretty easy to distinguish the differences between most cinnamons and most black pastels, which to my mind makes it a different mutation.



there been plenty of threads about this topic, the fact that a super mojave is not a BEL, the fact that a mystic/mojave makes a mystic potion instead of a BEL, and other combos, its a deuted gene

the most part doesn't work, there normals that are mistaken for cinnys there are normals mistaken for pastels. looking different doesn't not make it a normal (yea double negative). and looking different doesn't make it a different mutation, its all in the genetics, lessers and butters used to look different but after a few generations... who can tell anymore with some of them. bet you in a few years cinny/black pastel will be the same way.

cinny x cinny = black pastel x black pastel = black pastel x cinny = black snake white bottom = same morph different line. pastel x cinny/black pastel = pewter, same concept as all the different lines of pastels. just because theres extreame examples of each doesn't change the genetic code.

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## dreese88

> there been plenty of threads about this topic, the fact that a super mojave is not a BEL, the fact that a mystic/mojave makes a mystic potion instead of a BEL, and other combos, its a deuted gene


I've never seen anybody say that super mojos are not BEL's. I have seen people say that the potion is possibly an extremely dirty luecistic snake. Unless you map genes, there's no real way to tell on any of these that are possible alleles.

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## OhhWatALoser

> I've never seen anybody say that super mojos are not BEL's. I have seen people say that the potion is possibly an extremely dirty luecistic snake. Unless you map genes, there's no real way to tell on any of these that are possible alleles.


Leucism is a condition characterized by reduced pigmentation in animals and humans. Unlike albinism, it is caused by a reduction in all types of skin pigment, not just melanin - wiki

super mojos yellow and have grey heads... not a lucy sorry.

and again how can potion be a lucy when it has pigment? and its easy to prove

Pastel Mojave bred to a normal can make other pastel mojaves 1/4 chance

Mojave x Lesser bred to a normal cannot make others, but mojave x mojave obviously different from lesser x lesser amoung other combos, so one is a diluted version of the other.

take a potion and bred it to a normal, can it make other potions? o look it can't it, deluted morph of same gene. if it can then guess their different morphs all together.

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## dreese88

> Leucism is a condition characterized by reduced pigmentation in animals and humans. Unlike albinism, it is caused by a reduction in all types of skin pigment, not just melanin - wiki
> 
> super mojos yellow and have grey heads... not a lucy sorry.
> 
> and again how can potion be a lucy when it has pigment? and its easy to prove
> 
> Pastel Mojave bred to a normal can make other pastel mojaves 1/4 chance
> 
> Mojave x Lesser bred to a normal cannot make others, but mojave x mojave obviously different from lesser x lesser amoung other combos, so one is a diluted version of the other.
> ...


So in your opinion, are black eyed lucy's luecistic?

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## OhhWatALoser

> So in your opinion, are black eyed lucy's luecistic?


its not opinion, luecistic has a definition

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## MarkS

> its not opinion, luecistic has a definition


And your definition is not quite complete.  'Leucistic' is derived from the root word 'Leuco' which simply means white, weakly colored or colorless.  Nothing more.

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## dreese88

> its not opinion, luecistic has a definition


Well...according to the definition you give, these aren't lucy's. 

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...lack+eyed+lucy

2nd pic down
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...lack+eyed+lucy

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## NorthernRegius

Back to the Topic- I work with the GCR line of Black Pastels- because I like them. There seems to be darker colourtion overall & I like the unusual patterns you find more often within the Black Pastels. 

I also have a Cinny Pewter & Black Pewter so I can play with both those crosses- BUT as a base morph the Black Pastel had me at hello.

Some of mine:

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## Ducky

> personally I think there are significant differences between the two as regards color and pattern, however they both modify the same gene in similar ways.  I've got both now and if I didn't know any better, I'd swear they were two completely different mutations just on looks alone.  They might be considered alleles, different mutations of the same gene, similar to the differences between Lesser Platinums and Mojaves.


But what are the "significant differences"?

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## Zach Cedor

> But what are the "significant differences"?


this thread is from 2009?

Sent From My Man-Cave

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## Pythonfriend

oh no....    its a 


*ZOMBIE THREAD*

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ballpythonluvr (06-25-2014),_MasonC2K_ (06-25-2014)

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## wescoast

> mojave is what they call a deluted gene. lesser and mojave are different, but lesser x butter is the same thing as cinny x black pastel, same morph different line.
> 
> i can put 2 normals next to each other that will look way more different than the cinny/black pastel you posted above, could probally find pastels that look more different. there are cinny/black pastels that look pretty similar.


Can your elaborate on how mojaves are a diluted gene please?

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## Pythonfriend

> Can your elaborate on how mojaves are a diluted gene please?


its totally outdated. would you want to elaborate on some stuff you posted in 2009, after 5 more years of learning about genetics have passed? 

much has changed in these 5 years. everyone is now sure that cinnamon and black pastel are different genes that are allelic. and the consensus is that its totally fine to call a white snake leucistic, even if it has a grey head, or some yellow on the back or whatever. and there are no diluted genes.

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## MasonC2K



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AZBennett (04-11-2015),_kc261_ (06-26-2014)

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