# Colubrids > Ratsnakes >  I'm convinced the universe is mocking me, or I'm just torturing myself

## Snagrio

For those of you who've known me on this forum long enough, you know my dream snake is a Vietnamese blue beauty. Well, the past week I've noticed a number of, _interesting_ coincidences.

First of which, for some time I've noticed the icon for rat snakes on Morph Market is a VBB (I like to browse on there a lot for fun); a friend of mine even remarked how it looks like it's laughing (it's clearly not but humans gonna anthropomorphize).

Then I did a little digging and discovered that a much-lauded breeder of beauty snakes, including blues (Zerkle Reptile Co.), is not only based around the closest major city I'm next to, but even is a vendor for the area's monthly reptile show. And to top it all off, I just now checked their Facebook and there's a 3 day old post of baby blues hatching.

I say I torture myself with all this because I'm not in a position to get one for a while for several reasons. But the fact that the uncommon species I seek is basically just, _right there_. Definition of so close yet so far.  :Raincloud:

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## Bogertophis

If you think that rat snake is laughing, you don't know rat snakes.   :ROFL:   Then again, maybe he IS laughing, an evil laugh...& waiting for you. 

I haven't kept any VBBs, but I actually prefer the colors of the Taiwan Beauty rat snakes & didn't find them hard to manage at all.  They DO have an endless appetite, & they ARE fast & active snakes (more like a "racer"), but when handled from hatchling size, I didn't have many nips at all- much like other rat snakes I've lived with.  But they DO get quite large.   :Very Happy: 

Good luck with your VBB-dream.   :Snake:

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## Snagrio

> If you think that rat snake is laughing, you don't know rat snakes.    Then again, maybe he IS laughing, an evil laugh...& waiting for you. 
> 
> I haven't kept any VBBs, but I actually prefer the colors of the Taiwan Beauty rat snakes & didn't find them hard to manage at all.  They DO have an endless appetite, & they ARE fast & active snakes (more like a "racer"), but when handled from hatchling size, I didn't have many nips at all- much like other rat snakes I've lived with.  But they DO get quite large.  
> 
> Good luck with your VBB-dream.


The _friend_ said he was laughing. I know better.  :Wink: 

And the details you listed are why I'm interested beyond their aptly named "beauty." It's a perfect contrast to my BP in every fashion. More active, more feisty (not that I WANT to get bit obviously but more of a challenge), more size without being dangerous (as in one can't strangle me by accident as far as I'm aware), and I think at adult size one would be big enough to take any potential refusals my BP would have.

The size of course though is one of the reasons why the dream has to be on the backburner for now. By my estimations an adult would need something the size of my 125 gallon aquarium plus an extra foot or so in height for climbing purposes.

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## Bogertophis

With many of these [racer-type] snakes, if you handle them gently from hatchling size & learn to keep a light touch (never "over-restraining" them) you shouldn't get many nips.  Of course, there may be exceptions, but that's been my experience- I'm a rat snake lover, & not because I like to get bit. (-I don't!)  They're a safe challenge, as you said.

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## nikkubus

Whew, I know the feeling. Stay strong! When the time is right, you will be able to find them still, even as rare as they are.

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*Bogertophis* (08-03-2021),_EL-Ziggy_ (08-04-2021)

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## EL-Ziggy

> Whew, I know the feeling. Stay strong! When the time is right, you will be able to find them still, even as rare as they are.


^This. 

I know the feeling too and as a person with impulse control issues its even tougher. I want an IMG boa and/or a Blackheaded python sooo bad, but I know its just not the right time so Im gonna chew my nails and stay disciplined until the time is right. Stay strong!!

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*Bogertophis* (08-04-2021),_jmcrook_ (08-04-2021)

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## Snagrio

> ^This. 
> 
> I know the feeling too and as a person with impulse control issues its even tougher. I want an IMG boa and/or a Blackheaded python sooo bad, but I know its just not the right time so Im gonna chew my nails and stay disciplined until the time is right. Stay strong!!


If it helps, I straight up can't afford the snake by itself right now. So I'm not exactly fighting the urge to impulse buy because I can't impulse buy to begin with.  :Razz:

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## EL-Ziggy

> If it helps, I straight up can't afford the snake by itself right now. So I'm not exactly fighting the urge to impulse buy because I can't impulse buy to begin with.


Thanks Snagrio! I was trying to stay optimistic and put a positive spin on things, but now that you put it that way I guess I cant really afford a new critter either  :Sad: . Sure, I could technically buy the snake, but Id have to divert funds away from other higher priorities like the mortgage, home and car maintenance, mama bears Amazon affairs, and the ever present child care (clothes/shoes/school supplies/glasses/braces/swimming/karate/band). Adulting is tough with all these responsibilities! 😀

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*Bogertophis* (08-04-2021),_dakski_ (08-04-2021)

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## Snagrio

Was waiting for this video. So feisty, though not quite as ornery as their bullsnake hatchling videos (granted I don't think anything can rival those  :ROFL: ). They're so _long_ right out the egg too, good lord. Like the size of a juvenile corn snake.  :Eyepopping: 

Maybe by next year I'll be able to get on their waiting list if there's another clutch.  :Please:

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*Bogertophis* (08-20-2021),_EL-Ziggy_ (08-20-2021)

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## Bogertophis

Those poor little snakes getting poked, prodded & teased.  Not something I'd do, but otherwise this brings back fond memories of hatching out my Taiwan Beauty rat snakes- & yes, they're all BIG  hatchlings!  I like their diamond patterns, & personally I prefer the gold color to the "blue" beauty rat snakes, but they're all awesome.  Taiwans have the black face masks too  :Cool:  & plenty of sass!  I find the hatchlings do grow out of it to be fairly normal rat snakes though- at least mine weren't "terrorists"? Thanks for sharing- it's a great video!  Any idea how much they're asking for them?

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TofuTofuTofu (09-18-2021)

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## Snagrio

> Those poor little snakes getting poked, prodded & teased.  Not something I'd do, but otherwise this brings back fond memories of hatching out my Taiwan Beauty rat snakes- & yes, they're all BIG  hatchlings!  I like their diamond patterns, & personally I prefer the gold color to the "blue" beauty rat snakes, but they're all awesome.  Taiwans have the black face masks too  & plenty of sass!  I find the hatchlings do grow out of it to be fairly normal rat snakes though- at least mine weren't "terrorists"? Thanks for sharing- it's a great video!  Any idea how much they're asking for them?


Agreed with the handling, but compared to other breeder videos where they roughly handle newborns and practically fling them across the table it's not nearly as bad.

As for price, I have no clue. I've checked their site more than once over the course of a year and it's always been this message. Going by what I've seen on MM though, they don't go for cheap. Current examples on there are half a grand or more. https://www.snakediscovery.com/available-reptiles/

Not even any real directions as to where to go to get on a waiting list beyond a simple email link. Quite odd.

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*Bogertophis* (08-20-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> Agreed with the handling, but compared to other breeder videos where they roughly handle newborns and practically fling them across the table it's not nearly as bad.
> 
> As for price, I have no clue. I've checked their site more than once over the course of a year and it's always been this message. Going by what I've seen on MM though, they don't go for cheap. Current examples on there are half a grand or more. https://www.snakediscovery.com/available-reptiles/
> 
> Not even any real directions as to where to go to get on a waiting list beyond a simple email link. Quite odd.


Sadly, I'm sure there's worse handling of hatchling snakes- but I like my snakes to feel safe with me & be good pets, & I believe it starts on day one, their impression of the world (& of moi).

Gee, prices sound a bit insane for these- :Surprised:    but it does come down to "supply & demand" with rarer species.  And it's like they don't even want to sell them at all?  But they're NOT hard to breed- so just be patient, you'll get there.

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TofuTofuTofu (09-18-2021)

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## Snagrio

> Sadly, I'm sure there's worse handling of hatchling snakes- but I like my snakes to feel safe with me & be good pets, & I believe it starts on day one, their impression of the world (& of moi).
> 
> Gee, prices sound a bit insane for these-   but it does come down to "supply & demand" with rarer species.  And it's like they don't even want to sell them at all?  But they're NOT hard to breed- so just be patient, you'll get there.


Their demand must've skyrocketed then. I looked through older MM listings going back to around 2018 and prices were in the $400, $300, even mid $200 range and most if not all of them appeared to be captive bred.

I looked on Fauna Classifieds and it seems to be a similar story, though I see listings even a year ago that were cheaper in similar ranges as above, but recent posts from this very month seem to be $450 minimum. Strange...

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## Bogertophis

> Their demand must've skyrocketed then. I looked through older MM listings going back to around 2018 and prices were in the $400, $300, even mid $200 range and most if not all of them appeared to be captive bred.
> 
> I looked on Fauna Classifieds and it seems to be a similar story, though I see listings even a year ago that were cheaper in similar ranges as above, but recent posts from this very month seem to be $450 minimum. Strange...


I think current high prices might also have to do with people being out of work due to covid- wanting to work from home now, or being forced to do so?  Also, various shortages making costs rise.

And "just because" -some do take advantage when things aren't plentiful.  Just remember they're easy to raise.   :Wink:   I think MM prices tend to be high- because they have the advantage of being a widely known & reputable platform to advertise from (& it's also easy to find things on).

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## Snagrio

Another VBBRS in the thumbnail so I had to. Don't think I'd ever be able to afford a super large fancy enclosure like that though.   :Razz: 



While on the subject, I think I have something of a timeline planned out. I should be starting a new job very soon as a dog walker/pet sitter (I've got one more interview left and they've been liking me so far), and I'm thinking maybe sometime next spring/early summer would be ideal, as by then I'll be in a healthy position financially and current more important issues like my current BP's permanent housing will be squared away. Plus I'd imagine there will be plenty of new babies to choose from around that time of year as well (unless that's later in the year, idk how their breeding cycles work).

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*Bogertophis* (09-17-2021)

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## Spicey

> Don't think I'd ever be able to afford a super large fancy enclosure like that though.


Well if you were bringing in $240K a year just from Patreon, you probably could.  I'm not dissing Emily and Ed, though;  I think it's great that they have been able to realize their dreams.  They are good people.

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## TofuTofuTofu

I like Snake Discovery and watch their channel. There have been a few things they do that I don't love.... Like, they had a video where they got their tegu surrendered from a person in Florida--this was waaay before the "ban" went through in February--and they said they were taking the tegu because they were banned in Florida? This was completely untrue and they hadn't bothered to research it... Like, clearly this person just made that up and told them to come "rescue" their tegu because Florida banned it (maybe taking advantage of SD even?). Even when the ban went through a few months later, any owner could keep their existing tegus, so, saying they had to get rid of the tegu just didn't make any sense. There were a bunch of comments about Florida banning stuff (and like... yeah... Florida does ban stuff), but this particular thing was just dramatized to a point that really bothered me. I really don't like that kind of misinformation. People trust things that channel says, and I just found that irresponsible I guess?

Also the whole "it is a necessary evil" of them to keep their rats in too small of a rack... Like, guys, no evil is "necessary." Would have softened the blow a bit if they had said they planned to expand it in the future, but they didn't. Also, enrichment only works for like one day lol. Having the rodents needing to eat from the top of the cage doesn't make them feel enriched every time; maybe for just the first time. I know you can't explain all that in a video, but it kind of misleads people and simplifies something that is a complex issue.

I don't think they're bad people though. The Snake Discovery channel was so helpful to me when I was first learning about snakes last year, and doing tons of research. I like how they're setting up their new zoo and giving all their snakes UVB and all that... It's really cool that they were able to build a zoo and they seem to be housing everything really well! But yeah sometimes I see Emily like poking at hatchlings just to make them angry and it's clearly being done just for the video, with total disregard that this baby snake is confused and stressed. Like I said, I don't hate Snake Discovery. I still watch stuff they put out. But sometimes there are things that don't make sense to me lol. Nobody is perfect, I guess. But they could be... more perfect than they are.

Anyway, more on topic, Blue Beauties were one of the first snakes that really caught my eye when I started researching. I think initially I was worried they'd be moody, so I kind of ruled them out early on. But I'm pretty sure that was just me not knowing much about snake behavior. It's good to have future snake goals though; I think not being able to get one right away will help you stay focused and determine if you still do want one in the future! That's how it worked out with me and my snake, and I feel like I made the right choice doing that.

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*Bogertophis* (09-18-2021)

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## TofuTofuTofu

> Not even any real directions as to where to go to get on a waiting list beyond a simple email link. Quite odd.


I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that they basically only offer the animals to Patreon supporters--or rather, the Patreon supporters always purchase them all till they are out of stock. The demand is so high that the supporters with early access buy all of them first. So I'm not sure you can get them from just their website anymore?

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## Snagrio

> I like Snake Discovery and watch their channel. There have been a few things they do that I don't love.... Like, they had a video where they got their tegu surrendered from a person in Florida--this was waaay before the "ban" went through in February--and they said they were taking the tegu because they were banned in Florida? This was completely untrue and they hadn't bothered to research it... Like, clearly this person just made that up and told them to come "rescue" their tegu because Florida banned it (maybe taking advantage of SD even?). Even when the ban went through a few months later, any owner could keep their existing tegus, so, saying they had to get rid of the tegu just didn't make any sense. There were a bunch of comments about Florida banning stuff (and like... yeah... Florida does ban stuff), but this particular thing was just dramatized to a point that really bothered me. I really don't like that kind of misinformation. People trust things that channel says, and I just found that irresponsible I guess?
> 
> Also the whole "it is a necessary evil" of them to keep their rats in too small of a rack... Like, guys, no evil is "necessary." Would have softened the blow a bit if they had said they planned to expand it in the future, but they didn't. Also, enrichment only works for like one day lol. Having the rodents needing to eat from the top of the cage doesn't make them feel enriched every time; maybe for just the first time. I know you can't explain all that in a video, but it kind of misleads people and simplifies something that is a complex issue.
> 
> I don't think they're bad people though. The Snake Discovery channel was so helpful to me when I was first learning about snakes last year, and doing tons of research. I like how they're setting up their new zoo and giving all their snakes UVB and all that... It's really cool that they were able to build a zoo and they seem to be housing everything really well! But yeah sometimes I see Emily like poking at hatchlings just to make them angry and it's clearly being done just for the video, with total disregard that this baby snake is confused and stressed. Like I said, I don't hate Snake Discovery. I still watch stuff they put out. But sometimes there are things that don't make sense to me lol. Nobody is perfect, I guess. But they could be... more perfect than they are.
> 
> Anyway, more on topic, Blue Beauties were one of the first snakes that really caught my eye when I started researching. I think initially I was worried they'd be moody, so I kind of ruled them out early on. But I'm pretty sure that was just me not knowing much about snake behavior. It's good to have future snake goals though; I think not being able to get one right away will help you stay focused and determine if you still do want one in the future! That's how it worked out with me and my snake, and I feel like I made the right choice doing that.


Snake Discovery in general is pretty much a "lesser evil" as a whole when it comes to YT reptile channels at large, at least in terms of larger scale breeders. It's like, yeah they've kept a lot of their animals in racks for the longest time, but they've make at least some kind of effort to make the most of what they have to work with compared to the endless videos and channels I've seen where you'll find dozens upon dozens of snakes in completely bare tubs, never to see the light of day except for when the content creator needs to pull one out to mug at the camera with. Not to excuse the areas where SD could improve of course but one could do far worse for typical reptile YT watching. I'd be lying however if I said I wasn't a little jealous of these types of mega channels where tons of people basically just, _give them_ stuff. In a recent video there was a mention of how they have an entire room filled with just fanmail for example. Not to mention, as was brought up, Patreon. But it is what it is.

To bring this back to topic anyway, I am glad in hindsight I've not been in a financial position to get anything more after my BP. It's given me time to ace care on what I have now before taking on further responsibility, and even when I have money coming in again I'll want to give things time so I can adjust and gauge my lifestyle in terms of how I handle my current "pet load" while balancing work (it's not a super taxing job time-wise but still) before I add on to it.




> I'm  pretty sure I heard somewhere that they basically only offer the animals  to Patreon supporters--or rather, the Patreon supporters always  purchase them all till they are out of stock. The demand is so high that  the supporters with early access buy all of them first. So I'm not sure  you can get them from just their website anymore?


Yeesh. Figured there was some sort of extra catch. Won't even bother at that point then since I'm sure the waiting list regardless of species is absurd.

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TofuTofuTofu (09-18-2021)

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## Snagrio

Forgot to add to last night's post, but the size and potential moodiness is actually part of what's drawn me to VBBRSes. While he's been an absolute darling, the total placidity of my BP has left me wanting more of a challenge in both size and temperament, and a blue beauty feels to me like a good step in both directions while also not feeling too daunting (despite their length, they're rather spindly even by colubrid standards, but still not too delicate-looking either). The size is also doubly important because I'd like another snake for refusal duties, and by my calculations a full grown blue beauty should be able to handle the small rats my BP eats, though I will most certainly be starting with a baby but that's the eventual idea.

That and it'd be nice to have a snake that doesn't mind showing itself, well, _ever_ beyond just sticking the tip of their head out of their lair like a puppy begging for treats.  :Razz:

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TofuTofuTofu (09-19-2021)

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## Snagrio

How fortuitous.  :Snake: 


I've been saving up money as best I can, even though I'm making more than I thought I would. And also trying (and failing) to not pay too much attention to other snakes so I can remain steadfast on this goal.  :Embarassed:

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## Spicey

Good luck!

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## Bogertophis

> ...And also trying (and failing) to not pay too much attention to other snakes so I can remain steadfast on this goal.


Maybe it would be best to keep an open mind- there are many kinds of snakes in the world, & you might miss something you'd like even better, & it might also be a better price.   :Wink:  

As they say, "be careful what you wish for".   I would just add- don't build up a particular kind of snake in your mind so much that you fail to see & understand their drawbacks too.

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## Snagrio

> Maybe it would be best to keep an open mind- there are many kinds of snakes in the world, & you might miss something you'd like even better, & it might also be a better price.   
> 
> As they say, "be careful what you wish for".   I would just add- don't build up a particular kind of snake in your mind so much that you fail to see & understand their drawbacks too.


I kind of have to though. If I was living on my own then it wouldn't really matter since I could pick and choose what and when I want for as much as finances allowed. But since that isn't the case (and with how things are going, it won't be for a LONG time), I have to choose very, very carefully because I'll be lucky to have one more snake let alone any beyond that.

Trust me, my list of potentials is ridiculous by now. Coral anery corn snakes, any assortment of BPs (GHI Mojave and Piebald in particular), Brazilian rainbow boas, Neuevo Leon/Variable kingsnakes, viper boas, sand boas, and on top of all that there's also the desire to adopt one from a shelter. There's one BP at a rescue for example with the description of "a little pistol with a moody attitude" that's been on my mind (and sure enough ever since I found the site he's been there all these months). But the thing is, ultimately, I'm at the mercy of my parents short of going full rebel mode and just bringing an animal home. Which, come to think of it one of my sisters used to do that and she never really got in trouble for it. Hmm...

But yeah. My mind is more than open, but I've in all likelihood effectively got one shot, so I've got to make it count.

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## Bogertophis

> I kind of have to though. If I was living on my own then it wouldn't really matter since I could pick and choose what and when I want for as much as finances allowed. But since that isn't the case (and with how things are going, it won't be for a LONG time), I have to choose very, very carefully because I'll be lucky to have one more snake let alone any beyond that.
> 
> Trust me, my list of potentials is ridiculous by now. Coral anery corn snakes, any assortment of BPs (GHI Mojave and Piebald in particular), Brazilian rainbow boas, Neuevo Leon/Variable kingsnakes, viper boas, sand boas, and on top of all that there's also the desire to adopt one from a shelter. There's one BP at a rescue for example with the description of "a little pistol with a moody attitude" that's been on my mind (and sure enough ever since I found the site he's been there all these months). But the thing is, ultimately, I'm at the mercy of my parents short of going full rebel mode and just bringing an animal home. Which, come to think of it one of my sisters used to do that and she never really got in trouble for it. Hmm...
> 
> But yeah. My mind is more than open, but I've in all likelihood effectively got one shot, so I've got to make it count.


Don't misunderstand me...I didn't say you should adopt them all!  LOL  But as I recall, you've had your heart set on a pricey Blue Beauty, which will also be costly to house (due to their adult size & activity level).  So I'm just suggesting that despite your admiration for them, it might not make the best (most practical) pet for you -especially at this time in your life.  Have you ever met a BB in person & gotten to hold one?  These are restless snakes (even if they aren't nippy), so they don't tend to sit still & "relate" to you.  Their metabolism is fast too, so they eat (& defecate) fairly often, & snakes live a long time, so that's a lot of $ on food, as well as frequent clean-up that you'll be committing yourself to for many years- I just want you to think beyond the "fantasy pet" to the real life creature.  And please remember that I've kept my share of VERY similar Taiwan Beauty rat snakes. :Wink:   They're very active snakes- fun to watch in a zoo or in nature, but not one that is likely to cuddle up much with you at home.  (I personally prefer somewhat calmer rat snakes for that reason.)  I know, temptation is everywhere- so for sure, make your "one shot" count for a pet you really want to live with, AND also one you can afford.   :Wink:   A BB might be a better pet to put off for the more distant future, to be honest.

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## Snagrio

> Don't misunderstand me...I didn't say you should adopt them all!  LOL  But as I recall, you've had your heart set on a pricey Blue Beauty, which will also be costly to house (due to their adult size & activity level).  So I'm just suggesting that despite your admiration for them, it might not make the best (most practical) pet for you -especially at this time in your life.  Have you ever met a BB in person & gotten to hold one?  These are restless snakes (even if they aren't nippy), so they don't tend to sit still & "relate" to you.  Their metabolism is fast too, so they eat (& defecate) fairly often, & snakes live a long time, so that's a lot of $ on food, as well as frequent clean-up that you'll be committing yourself to for many years- I just want you to think beyond the "fantasy pet" to the real life creature.  And please remember that I've kept my share of VERY similar Taiwan Beauty rat snakes.  They're very active snakes- fun to watch in a zoo or in nature, but not one that is likely to cuddle up much with you at home.  (I personally prefer somewhat calmer rat snakes for that reason.)  I know, temptation is everywhere- so for sure, make your "one shot" count for a pet you really want to live with, AND also one you can afford.    A BB might be a better pet to put off for the more distant future, to be honest.


I know you didn't mean that, I meant those are among my options that tickle my fancy, I wouldn't have them all at once.  :ROFL: 

I have not held nor even seen a VBB in real life before no. While I don't mind so much the activity level in terms of handling (I do kind of want a species that doesn't just, you know, sit there), I'm seeing your point with housing. A proper enclosure for an adult would easily run me over a grand, and that's before the snake itself and a food supply. And now that you've brought it up, it hit me that I've seen a number of reptile keepers not get their "dream reptile" until quite some time later when they had the experience and resources available to do it right. Perhaps I should do the same...

If I were to narrow it down to more "realistic" options then, there's three that stick out. A corn snake was the first snake I ever had, so it'd feel right to fully correct the mistake I made all those years ago and get a new one. Second would be another BP, which would be the most likely to fulfill the adoption/rescue goal if I don't specifically go with another morph because let's face it, unwanted BPs are sadly everywhere. Third is probably the most important from a practical standpoint. A "companion eater" that is of comparable size and build to a BP and thusly able to accept refusals if need be. BRBs sound the most tempting. I used to be put off by how vulnerable juveniles are to low humidity, but ever since I discovered how stupidly easy it is to keep it high via tubs, it sounds much less intimidating since it can safely quarantine in that during the first few months.

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## Bogertophis

> I know you didn't mean that, I meant those are among my options that tickle my fancy, I wouldn't have them all at once. 
> 
> I have not held nor even seen a VBB in real life before no. While I don't mind so much the activity level in terms of handling (I do kind of want a species that doesn't just, you know, sit there), I'm seeing your point with housing. A proper enclosure for an adult would easily run me over a grand, and that's before the snake itself and a food supply. And now that you've brought it up, it hit me that I've seen a number of reptile keepers not get their "dream reptile" until quite some time later when they had the experience and resources available to do it right. Perhaps I should do the same...


Even your video above suggests these are best for experienced keepers.  You'd be spending more on substrate too- remember, "what goes in, must come out"! :ROFL: And the bigger the snake... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Yes, I really do think your "dream reptile" would be better off postponed for optimal resources & experience. That's not a snake that you can keep in a small enclosure, & they grow fast.  

I had to laugh at the way the snake she was holding kept "following" her hand & she also showed that she'd gotten several bites while filming, lol.  Just remember, the bigger they get, the more you're going to feel those bites too.  They're classified as "rat" snakes, but their behavior & need for space is more like a racer.  (Which I also have experience with, btw.)

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_dakski_ (01-26-2022)

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## Snagrio

I've been mulling over things with myself and have remained determined. Getting a VBB is more than a frivolous dream for me at this point, it's become a goal. I've talked personally with the Zerkles and going by what they say they'll have babies available by June. I've already been saving every penny I can for more important things and have surmised I'll be in a perfect position by that time.

It will be a long wait yet, but good things comes to those who do as they say.

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_EL-Ziggy_ (01-26-2022)

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## Snagrio

Well, I just got back from the reptile show. Zerkle's daughter was there so I got the download with as many questions as I could think of. From what she said their VBBs are currently locking so there's no eggs yet, so around late June/July is when they'd be expected to be ready. I got their business card so I'll be able to call sometime soon to I can get my name down and ensure I get the chance to pick one up when the time comes as they're first come first serve otherwise and they typically only actually take their OW rat snakes to bigger shows like Tinley (but they do ship and I'm close by to them physically at that).

Considering I didn't leave the show empty-handed, I'm okay with that wait time. Everything will come together in due time.  :Smile:

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*Bogertophis* (04-09-2022),Erie_herps (04-09-2022)

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## Caitlin

Blue Beauties are understandably appealing. For what it's worth, I try to convince people who want Blue Beauties to spend time around other large colubrids before committing to one. They are without a doubt an absolutely stunning snake but they are not the right snake for everyone, and not everyone is charmed by an 8' long, nervous, fast moving snake that eats a lot, poops a lot, isn't interested in engaging with people and isn't afraid to bite to let you know that you need to back off. It seems like you are pretty convinced about getting one, so I guess the only other thing I would say is to be sure you have the resources and space for an enclosure.

I personally wouldn't keep an adult Blue Beauty in anything smaller than a 4'x3'x6' at the very minimum, but bigger (6'x3'x8') would be better, which would easily run more than double or triple your one thousand dollar estimate unless you are super good at DIY.

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*Bogertophis* (04-10-2022),_jmcrook_ (04-10-2022),_Snagrio_ (04-11-2022)

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## Snagrio

> Blue Beauties are understandably appealing. For what it's worth, I try to convince people who want Blue Beauties to spend time around other large colubrids before committing to one. They are without a doubt an absolutely stunning snake but they are not the right snake for everyone, and not everyone is charmed by an 8' long, nervous, fast moving snake that eats a lot, poops a lot, isn't interested in engaging with people and isn't afraid to bite to let you know that you need to back off. It seems like you are pretty convinced about getting one, so I guess the only other thing I would say is to be sure you have the resources and space for an enclosure.
> 
> I personally wouldn't keep an adult Blue Beauty in anything smaller than a 4'x3'x6' at the very minimum, but bigger (6'x3'x8') would be better, which would easily run more than double or triple your one thousand dollar estimate unless you are super good at DIY.


No worries, this has been mulled over in my mind for nearly 2 years. Their relative tenacity is part of what draws me as I want a larger more fiery species as a challenge, but they can't really hurt me beyond biting as they aren't heavy-bodied so they aren't outright dangerous as far as I'm concerned. In fact one of the reasons I have my new corn is to have some time getting used to a snake that isn't a super slow and bulky species like my BP as a bit of a "warm up" so to speak.

I am fully aware and prepared in terms of cost and resources as well. Expecting the snake itself to cost half a grand minimum, and am well aware that the total cost will go well over a grand. AP's 6'x2'x4' (I sadly can't really find anything taller but the vendor at the show said it'd be adequate) is what I'm looking at in terms of an adult enclosure, with a sequence of tubs and smaller PVC setups to grow up in for the meantime.

I'm sacrificing other non-essential/animal aspects of my life (nearly everything about my PC setup needs to be upgraded and there are new video games I've stopped myself from getting for example) in order to save money for this very goal, so I am 100% all in and serious about it.  :Good Job:

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## Bogertophis

> ... I want a larger more fiery species as a challenge, but they can't really hurt me beyond biting as they aren't heavy-bodied so they aren't outright dangerous as far as I'm concerned...


Just to be accurate, any constricting snake that's LONG enough is going to be strong enough to strangle you if they happen to be around your neck.  I'm NOT saying they'd want to, or even that they would try, but I don't want you to make a false assumption- it doesn't require a heavy-bodied snake to pose a danger.  I once had one of my large male Florida* rat snakes (Yellow x Gulf Hammock x Everglades?) constrict my forearm for about 20 minutes, during which time NOTHING worked to get him to release.  He didn't bite me at all, & I've never figured out what he was thinking that day- all I know is that it wasn't fun, & had that been my neck..... :Surprised:   -so you need to understand this, & not let your guard down, okay?  

My male FL rat snakes are currently 7' long- usually fine to handle & they're not biters, but snakes can still be a bit unpredictable since they're basically wild animals, not "domestics".   And when a snake gets some size, like over 6' long, they're a lot to hang onto- shoulders are very convenient & appealing for the snake to climb on, as you'll find out.  Never allow them to fully loop your neck.  AND, IF you have long hair, that can also present a hazard- a snake can quickly create a tangle which makes them very difficult if not impossible to untangle, again, putting you at risk of being strangled if they're also around your neck.  I once had this demonstrated by a large bull snake many years ago.  Trust me on this.  :Wink: 

Corn snakes are not much in the way of preparation- even though they don't sit still, they're very polite snakes; a racer of some type (like maybe a 'coachwhip', or a Korean rat snake) would be much closer to a VBB.  (A reminder, I've raised & kept large Taiwan Beauty rat snakes in the past- very similar to VBB.)

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## Snagrio

> Just to be accurate, any constricting snake that's LONG enough is going to be strong enough to strangle you if they happen to be around your neck.  I'm NOT saying they'd want to, or even that they would try, but I don't want you to make a false assumption- it doesn't require a heavy-bodied snake to pose a danger.  I once had one of my large male Florida* rat snakes (Yellow x Gulf Hammock x Everglades?) constrict my forearm for about 20 minutes, during which time NOTHING worked to get him to release.  He didn't bite me at all, & I've never figured out what he was thinking that day- all I know is that it wasn't fun, & had that been my neck.....  -so you need to understand this, & not let your guard down, okay?  
> 
> My male FL rat snakes are currently 7' long- usually fine to handle & they're not biters, but snakes can still be a bit unpredictable since they're basically wild animals, not "domestics".   And when a snake gets some size, like over 6' long, they're a lot to hang onto- shoulders are very convenient & appealing for the snake to climb on, as you'll find out.  Never allow them to fully loop your neck.  AND, IF you have long hair, that can also present a hazard- a snake can quickly create a tangle which makes them very difficult if not impossible to untangle, again, putting you at risk of being strangled if they're also around your neck.  I once had this demonstrated by a large bull snake many years ago.  Trust me on this.


Fair point. Even with my BP I've had times where I'd try to get him off my hand or arm and it'd be a struggle because his grip is incredibly strong just from holding on, which indeed is how many large pet snake "attack" incidences happen contrary to what sensational news reports say. It's often an accident with the snake just trying to feel secure while they're practically suspended in midair and the owner makes a poor handling choice.

Speaking of, I am also fully aware of never allowing a snake, no matter how seemingly safe, around your neck despite the endless images of people draping huge boas and pythons around their shoulders like some fashion accessory.  :Wag of the finger: 

Don't let my hair get overly long either. I like to have some length but it never reaches my shoulders or anything.

I do appreciate the advice altogether. This is why I'm making sure to get a baby so I can work with it from a smaller size and practice safe handling techniques when the risk isn't as high.

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## Caitlin

I totally get it about wanting a snake with a little more spice and fire. I've considered Blue Beauties but in the end wanted snakes that are a little more willing to engage with me, responsive to enrichment and target training, etc. while still having some spice. The Australian pythons fill that role perfectly - intelligent, active, beautiful to look at and observe, extremely responsive, available in sizes from the diminutive Antaresia to the glory of the big Costal Carpet Pythons. And they can definitely be an intense snake, yet there's an odd fundamental gentleness to them if they trust you. There's a good reason that once people keep one they tend to fall in love with them.

But I do understand having a particular passion for a specific snake. You might want to look into enclosures by Focus Cubed Habitats (they made all of my enclosures), as you can definitely select larger/taller enclosures than AP offers. AP makes good enclosures, but so does Focus. And a Blue Beauty needs height.

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*Bogertophis* (04-12-2022)

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## Bogertophis

I get the desire for "fire & spice" in snakes too- that's why I love most rat snakes, bull snakes, my Aussie spotted python, & rattlesnakes, but I agree with Caitlin about also wanting a snake that's willing to engage with me too-  that's what's missing with my Korean rat snake, & what I suspect might be missing with a VBB also.  Like a racer when handled, he's not a fulfilling "pet" as far as I'm concerned.  I actually HAD a w/c coachwhip for a while that was far better to engage with than my Korean rat snake, lol- & so were my Taiwan Beauty rat snakes.   With my Korean rat snake, that spark just isn't there, & he's pretty much a custodial chore (for 13 years now, so far), nothing more- never any improvement, & snakes live a long time.  

It's clear to me that some snakes are more intelligent than others, & those that are, are the ones that can rise above their instincts & learn to engage more with us- they learn to trust us, as Caitlin said.  One of my c/b FL rat snakes was WAY more feisty than her siblings (hyper & hysterical is more like it) and for the first year, I wondered if she'd ever improve, but now, even though she's high strung & needs a light touch when handled, she's becoming one of my favorites because she's learned that I'm actually "safe"- she'll relax now when I hold her, & even from her tank, she often goes out of her way to watch me- to study me- in a very curious & mellow way, not hostile, when I happen to sit near her home.  It's just different.

Anyway, I truly hope more than anything that if you do acquire a VBB, that it provides you with as much enjoyment as you think it will- especially for the investment you'll be making.

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_Caitlin_ (04-12-2022)

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## dakski

I thought I'd add to this thread as I saw the video below, posted by Brian at Riverside Reptiles, one of my favorite places to go.

I do have a friend who lucked out and has a "nice" VBB, but apparently, that's not exactly the norm. This doesn't look like fun to me, but to each his/her own. They are stunning and great feeders. Also interesting as they like to climb a lot and at the exhibit at Riverside, they are usually up in the branches, like the green mambas he has. Of course, the green mambas scare me more  :Smile: . 

https://youtube.com/shorts/obHTmWeUOco?feature=share

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*Bogertophis* (06-05-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I thought I'd add to this thread as I saw the video below, posted by Brian at Riverside Reptiles, one of my favorite places to go.
> 
> I do have a friend who lucked out and has a "nice" VBB, but apparently, that's not exactly the norm. This doesn't look like fun to me, but to each his/her own. They are stunning and great feeders. Also interesting as they like to climb a lot and at the exhibit at Riverside, they are usually up in the branches, like the green mambas he has. Of course, the green mambas scare me more . 
> 
> https://youtube.com/shorts/obHTmWeUOco?feature=share


That's a really over-the-top voice-over in that clip- too funny!  Beauty snakes do give a nice hissy open-mouth + flat neck display when upset, & truth be told, very few snakes appreciate their tails touched.  Many get used to it & accept it, but not all.  Haha!  Personally, I love snakes with some fire too, but especially ones that after challenging me, eventually do learn to settle down & accept handling- and many rat snakes (& others too) ARE the "best of both worlds" for those with empathy & patience to bring that out in them.  When this happens, you can feel the mutual respect when handling them- even with some remaining wariness each time you initially pick them up.  That to me is fun.    :Snake2:    After all, we're asking them, a wild animal, to "trust us"- so it's only fair that we have to meet them halfway, & trust them not to bite also.

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_dakski_ (06-05-2022)

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