# Other Pythons > Giant Pythons >  Burm or Retic??

## cstruthers

I am trying to decide which one I want to get. Its between a male retic or a female burm... I chose these two because they will grow around the same length (18ft average) and thats the size I am looking for. So which ones would be easier to handle full grown and which one would you prefer to have? Im not interested in breeding, this would be strictly a pet... hopefully lol.

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## Theartisticgemini

I have heard retics are very smart ( For a snake )

I would personally go with a retic. BTW don't male retics get like 23 FT plus.

edit: Also im not sure if your SIG is up to date or not but if this is your first large snake from what i can see i would start of with something like a RTB.

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## cstruthers

Well if you manage the food intake properly then they will be under 20... It is possible to manage a retics size without starving it as some people like to think. Most people like to powerfeed (most of the time not intentional) the first year or two of the retics life because they want it to grow fast. These two years are the peak growing years, and if the meals are managed during this critical point he will stay significantly smaller and still maintain great health.

And yes this will be my first PERSONAL large snake. But I work with reptiles everyday where I work and we have MANY large pythons and boas that I am very comfortable and confident handling, so its actually not really my first cause I treat all the animals at work like they are my own.

O and just to add to my first point, we have a male retic that is 5 years old now and his size has been properly managed since he was born, he is now only a little over 13ft, and if you saw him you would see that he is definately healthy.

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## AkHerps

"Properly managed" sounds prettty fishy to me...kind of like a nice way of saying your not feeding them enough so that way they grow slower than they should be growing..

But maybe I'm wrong, but there's a difference between surviving, and thriving.

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apple2 (07-26-2011),_Chocolate Muffin's_ (08-07-2010),_FIEND_FO_LYFE_ (06-13-2011)

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## Theartisticgemini

A 5 year old retic just over 13 feet sounds like hella stunted growth if you ask me  :Confused:

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AkHerps (08-07-2010),_Chocolate Muffin's_ (08-07-2010),_FIEND_FO_LYFE_ (06-13-2011),Jen2146 (08-09-2010),Kyle@theHeathertoft (08-07-2010),The Bears (07-12-2011)

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## cstruthers

It just like with a human, I could eat 6 meals a day and grow more than someone eating 2 day. The person eating 2 meals a day is still healthy, they just arent as big. 

If I had pictures of the snake I would post them because he is defiantely not skinny or unhealthy. Its not that he doesnt get fed ENOUGH, but he just didnt get fed AS MUCH as most people feed there retics. Which most people feed them too much anyway like I said in the other post, trust me I see it every day with so many different snakes. A guy was feeding a three year old male ball python 4 medium rats at a time because he liked the "more full" look. A lot of people are idiots lol.

Just because an animal eats less doesnt mean it is unhealthy, just like a human on a good diet doesnt eat very much. Most people overeat too just like snakes.

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## AkHerps

Maybe you should get another species of snake if you aren't able to handle a 20+ foot snake, and this way you won't have to restrict it's feeding which can be detrimental to the snakes health.  People on good diets usually eat 6 small healthy meals a day, so it's not really a small amount of food, just food throughout the day to keep the metabolism going.  Snakes are not the same as us.

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## JEWSKIN

I choose other simply for the fact I have a male and female retic I have had burms and well it's all personal preference.  My male, Hannibal, at two it just hitting the ten foot mark....yeah a bit small I got him from some people who were feeding him well kinda small meals every two three or even 4 weeks.   They took great care of him aside from the feeding and he is well one of the most intelligent creatures I know a freak if I must say every so lovingly.  I dont know whats more messed up the fact that I talk to him like I do my children or the fact that even people watching swear he responds (i.e. pouts when i tell him not holding tonight......go to sleep ur not getting the rabbit its not ours.....or goes in to a hussy when Clarice my baby girl tic isn't near him for a few days)

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## cstruthers

> Maybe you should get another species of snake if you aren't able to handle a 20+ foot snake, and this way you won't have to restrict it's feeding which can be detrimental to the snakes health.  People on good diets usually eat 6 small healthy meals a day, so it's not really a small amount of food, just food throughout the day to keep the metabolism going.  Snakes are not the same as us.


I wasnt saying we are the same as snakes, it was an analogy... The only thing I was trying to get at was that if you eat more you get bigger, not healthier, and you can eat a small amount and be very healthy. Dont over analize things. And I also never said I cant handle a 20 foot snake, I said I handle them at work, we have retics over 20ft so its not a problem I was just saying there was a such thing as slightly managing size. I wasnt there while our small retic was growing up so maybe it was starved, but all I can say is that NOW it is healthy. Im not going to starve my snake so everything is ok. My post wasnt even about any of this crap, I just wanted to know what people thought would be a better large python, a Retic or Burm.

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## cstruthers

> I choose other simply for the fact I have a male and female retic I have had burms and well it's all personal preference.  My male, Hannibal, at two it just hitting the ten foot mark....yeah a bit small I got him from some people who were feeding him well kinda small meals every two three or even 4 weeks.   They took great care of him aside from the feeding and he is well one of the most intelligent creatures I know a freak if I must say every so lovingly.  I dont know whats more messed up the fact that I talk to him like I do my children or the fact that even people watching swear he responds (i.e. pouts when i tell him not holding tonight......go to sleep ur not getting the rabbit its not ours.....or goes in to a hussy when Clarice my baby girl tic isn't near him for a few days)


Gorgeous Retic! I think Im going to be getting a male tiger, they are amazing! And I do notice, out of all the snakes I handle, that retics do seem to show more emotion and personalilty... One of our male lav albino retics was up at the glass and I told him I wasnt taking him out and he just went down and laid his head on the ground like he was pouting lol... I just had to take him out after that haha

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## cstruthers

O and this is NERDs info on the Retics http://www.newenglandreptile.com/CareRetic.html
it says females 17+' and males 12-14'
Now this does seem a little small from what I have experianced, but i'll trust NERD with any info they give me on snakes.

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## JEWSKIN

> Gorgeous Retic! I think Im going to be getting a male tiger, they are amazing! And I do notice, out of all the snakes I handle, that retics do seem to show more emotion and personalilty... One of our male lav albino retics was up at the glass and I told him I wasnt taking him out and he just went down and laid his head on the ground like he was pouting lol... I just had to take him out after that haha





LOL good not just me hehehe Clarice is the same way she's almost as long as me! I'm 5'1 fyi I got her from RBC Pythons (Brandon) shes just amazing  pic was taken at the XMAS in July in Sierra Vista by Christina Hays.....yes thats my arm lol Clarice was a huge hit

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## JEWSKIN

> O and this is NERDs info on the Retics http://www.newenglandreptile.com/CareRetic.html
> it says females 17+' and males 12-14'
> Now this does seem a little small from what I have experianced, but i'll trust NERD with any info they give me on snakes.





well there is a new record holder on the 33 footer lol here's a vid


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3845750/from/toolbar

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## Theartisticgemini

Just feed you snake an appropriate sized meal once a week. Genetics will do the rest. You really cannot control how big your snake grows. You are talking about starving your snake which i find pretty irresponsible.

Try looking into dwarf retics.

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## cstruthers

> Just feed you snake an appropriate sized meal once a week. Genetics will do the rest. You really cannot control how big your snake grows. You are talking about starving your snake which i find pretty irresponsible.
> 
> Try looking into dwarf retics.


Please read NERDs site, they talk about managing size. Do your research before posting, it makes you sound smarter. If you want to call up NERD and tell them they are wrong and that they shouldn't own large snakes then go ahead. Because that is what you are telling me and I am basically quoting NERD.

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## izoid

> Just feed you snake an appropriate sized meal once a week. Genetics will do the rest. You really cannot control how big your snake grows. You are talking about starving your snake which i find pretty irresponsible.
> 
> Try looking into dwarf retics.


No where on this thread has anyone indicated they would starve their animal.  Snake do not have to eat every week, this is simply not good information.  It all depends on the age of the snake.  I for one find it responsible to manage their feeding in a healthy and responsible manner.

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cstruthers (08-07-2010)

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## cstruthers

> No where on this thread has anyone indicated they would starve their animal.  Snake do not have to eat every week, this is simply not good information.  It all depends on the age of the snake.  I for one find it responsible to manage their feeding in a healthy and responsible manner.


Finally someone who knows something about Retics!!  :Good Job:  lol

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## boa_mchugh

well if u want more color i say get a Retic but it up to u cuz Burms are cool to haha

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## boa_mchugh

lol that snake is amazing haha

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## Kyle@theHeathertoft

> It just like with a human, I could eat 6 meals a day and grow more than someone eating 2 day. The person eating 2 meals a day is still healthy, they just arent as big.


I'd just like to point out that if we're making snake feeding anaologous with human food consumption, we aren't talking about obesity or weight control in adults, we're talking about food durring critical growth periods of children.  :Razz: 

Yes, overfeeding your child will make them fat and unhealthy. Underfeeding will make them skinny and unhealthy.

Notice I am saying nothing about the snake, merely stating that your analogy is pretty shaky and sounds suspicious to me.




> Just feed you snake an appropriate sized meal once a week. Genetics will do the rest. You really cannot control how big your snake grows. You are talking about starving your snake which i find pretty irresponsible.
> 
> Try looking into dwarf retics.


I love Reticulated Pythons. I adore them. To me they are one of the most beautiful snakes in the world. Yet I know I am incapable of coping with a giant snake.

I'm negotiating with someone right now, actually, who has a male Super Dwarf. I want him.  :Smile:  A Retic in a size I can handle!

No shame in admitting I'm not up for a fullsized Retic.  :Smile:

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## Theartisticgemini

Yea NERD says they get 12-14 feet on average but its all in the genetics of the snake. What are you going to do if your retic gets 20+ feet?

All im saying is prepare for a very large snake but hope for a 12-14 FT snake.

And when you said you had a 5 year old retic just over 13 feet you were making it sound like that is what you want to do with your snake. And "maintaining" a snakes growth so it stays small is just wrong. With all the different species of snake out there why would you "stunt" a snakes growth  :Rolleyes2:

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## AkHerps

No, remember, it's not stunting...it's managing... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

"managing" a snakes growth rate sounds really fishy, how would you go about this? Once a month, twice a month feeding for a hatchling?  More, less?  

Why do you want to make the snake grow slower then it is natrually supposed too?

And even on NERD's site, he says you should feed a meal once a week and that if you are trying to maintain their growth it can leave with you an always searching for food snake, and that's not good if you want to handle the snake a lot..

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_Theartisticgemini_ (08-07-2010)

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## SpartaDog

Between the two, I like retics better just because of their appearance. I think they're a more attractive snake than Burms. But if you can't handle something over 20 ft, I'd go with the Burm.

Goldfish CAN reach several inches, almost a foot, if you let them. But most people don't give them the tank space so they grow much slower and usually don't make it to that size. I think "managing" a snake's size is pretty much the same and it just doesn't sit right with me. That being said, I know a lot of people do it and I can't really stop you, but...

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## cstruthers

> I'd just like to point out that if we're making snake feeding anaologous with human food consumption, we aren't talking about obesity or weight control in adults, we're talking about food durring critical growth periods of children. 
> 
> Yes, overfeeding your child will make them fat and unhealthy. Underfeeding will make them skinny and unhealthy.
> 
> Notice I am saying nothing about the snake, merely stating that your analogy is pretty shaky and sounds suspicious to me.


Ok Im so sorry that I ever made a simple analogy to a human. All I was saying was that if you eat more you generally get bigger, if you eat significantly less (but still a healthy amount) you will stay smaller. You people think WAY too far into simple things. I was making a simple and very easy to understand analogy and everybody starts freaking out because they start trying to come up with a deeper meaning to what I said... The convo about that stuff is over, argue with NERD if you have anything negative to say about it, not me.

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## cstruthers

> No, remember, it's not stunting...it's managing...
> 
> "managing" a snakes growth rate sounds really fishy, how would you go about this? Once a month, twice a month feeding for a hatchling?  More, less?  
> 
> Why do you want to make the snake grow slower then it is natrually supposed too?
> 
> And even on NERD's site, he says you should feed a meal once a week and that if you are trying to maintain their growth it can leave with you an always searching for food snake, and that's not good if you want to handle the snake a lot..


Would you say "managing" your personal weight is healthy or unhealthy? I dont understand why you keep using that term negatively because the way I am using it is actually a possitive thing. Im saying that if you feed a retic a healthy amount (not too frequently and too large of prey items like most people do) they will generally (yes there are genetic exceptions) stay a decent size (males around 16-18ft max).

And you keep accusing me of wanting to starve my snake. I never made any meantion of this at all. The reason all of this "management" stuff came up is because Theartisticgemini said that males were 23+ feet. And yes I know this CAN happen, either from rare genetics or overfeeding, but it is by no means the "norm" for a male retic. It is usually not the "norm" for females either which are significantly larger. Look online a little bit and see how many 23+ft retics there are, you wont find many compared to how many smaller ones you find.

And I know I could buy a retic tomorrow and it could be a world record 50ft snake (highly unlikely) but I will be fine with that. But I am going to feed resonably and responsibly (this is what "managing" is) so that my retic will grow up to be a healthy and not fat retic.

If there is any further arguments about anything in this post then please re-read it and dont overthink it. Because I dont understand how anyone could argue with anything I have said in this last post. I am sorry I havent made everything totally clear throughout the post, I thought I had but I guess I was mistaken. If I need to clear anything else up please let me know. I am an extremely responsible keeper and am more concerned about animals than myself, so I would never do anything to cause one harm (underfeeding, overfeeding, mishandling etc.). Soon I will have my degree in Wildlife biology and then working on my masters in herpetology so this is more than just a hobby to me like it is with most people.

So please, hold no grudges and have an open mind when confronted with things that you dont fully understand and I will do the same. I just want everybody to be responsible when raising these large animals because many people do overfeed beacuse they want that 25+ft snake, which most of the time the animal is not genetically meant to get that big, so they are therefore unhealthy.

-Cody

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## AkHerps

You're talking about managing weight, weight has nothing to do with anything.  If a human eats too much to fast, they get fat, but will still grow at a normal speed, if a human eats less and healthier, they will be thinner and healthier, but still grow at a normal speed.

If you were to feed a human less than they should get as a growing child, then you will stunt their growth.  If a person should be eating 3 meals a day, and you only fed them once a day, or every other day, I'm sure you could stunt their growth until they didn't reach their full potential.

The only way you can get your snake to not grow like it should normally, is to not feed it enough to maintain healthy growth, which is stunting it's growth, not managing.  Managing would be making sure your snake doesn't get too fat, like feeding an adult ball python a large rat every single day.  That could potentially make a fat snake.  But a large rat every week to 10 days, would allow for a healthy weight and normal growth rate.

Like hatchling BP's/retics can be fed every 3 days without becoming fat and still grow at a normal pace.  They can also be fed every 5 and 7 days while still growing at a normal pace and not becoming fat.

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## cstruthers

> You're talking about managing weight, weight has nothing to do with anything.  If a human eats too much to fast, they get fat, but will still grow at a normal speed, if a human eats less and healthier, they will be thinner and healthier, but still grow at a normal speed.
> 
> If you were to feed a human less than they should get as a growing child, then you will stunt their growth.  If a person should be eating 3 meals a day, and you only fed them once a day, or every other day, I'm sure you could stunt their growth until they didn't reach their full potential.
> 
> The only way you can get your snake to not grow like it should normally, is to not feed it enough to maintain healthy growth, which is stunting it's growth, not managing.  Managing would be making sure your snake doesn't get too fat, like feeding an adult ball python a large rat every single day.  That could potentially make a fat snake.  But a large rat every week to 10 days, would allow for a healthy weight and normal growth rate.
> 
> Like hatchling BP's/retics can be fed every 3 days without becoming fat and still grow at a normal pace.  They can also be fed every 5 and 7 days while still growing at a normal pace and not becoming fat.


Ok you obviously did not look back at my post before typing any of this like I asked you to do. Im not trying to argue with you but you keep making points that have nothing to do with anything im talking about and trying to argue with someone who isnt arguing back......

I used the word weight to make another analogy. Im sorry you seem to not understand any of them so I will stop making simple analogies.. I was explaining what the word "managing" meant. The first thing I thought of was people always talking about managing thier weight so I figured that would be easy to understand but obviously you tried to apply it to something else and overthought it.

And again I dont understand why you keep explaining what starving a snake is. I understand the difference in starvation and eating healthy. But you continuously talk about starving a snake which I make no meantion of (except for saying that I am NOT talking about starvation). So please stop meantioning starvation.

The ONLY thing I am saying about feeding a snake is that I am going to feed it a HEALTHY amount and not OVERFEED like a large % of retic and burm owners do. I didnt say I was going to stunt growth, i didnt say I was going to underfeed, and i didnt say I wanted a small Retic! You are arguing with nobody because none of the "points" you are making pertain to anything I am saying.

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## Theartisticgemini

A 5 year old retic just over 13 FT sound like a very neglected "starved" snake and you were making it sound like that was a normal thing. Thats the reason everybody is flaming you.

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## AkHerps

I was just wondering how you go about managing their growth?

How much do you feed, etc..?  I can't find any info on it, other then not feeding enough.

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## cstruthers

> A 5 year old retic just over 13 FT sound like a very neglected "starved" snake and you were making it sound like that was a normal thing. Thats the reason everybody is flaming you.


But after about 5 posts saying that it is not my intention at all, it hasn't stopped. So obviously there is something that yall aren't understanding and thats what bothers me....

And who knows, maybe the 13ft male I was talking about is genetically smaller, like you said genetics have something to do with it too. But I cant say that for sure because there is no way of knowing. All I can say is what I see and know to be true- The retic is 13-14ft, 5 years old, and is NOW healthy, idk if he was healthy when he was yonger but he is showing all the signs of a healthy snake NOW. So please stop bringing that specific snake up, I have been researching a good bit and there are plenty of other examples of smaller retics. I am not saying that these were fed properly because I was not there so please do not bring this up in another post. I am just stating what I know, that is all.

You have obviously misunderstood what I have been trying to say this entire time so there is no reason for any further discussion unless you would like to comment on what this post is actually about....

The point if everything that I have been trying to say is............ DO NOT POWERFEED RETICS TO GET THEM BIGGER FASTER (AS MANY PEOPLE DO), FEED A HEALTHY AMOUNT (NOT STARVATION) AND THEY WILL GROW TO THE SIZE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.

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## cstruthers

> I was just wondering how you go about managing their growth?
> 
> How much do you feed, etc..?  I can't find any info on it, other then not feeding enough.


ARE YOU SERIOUS???? I am talking about feeding a healthy amount. Most people OVERFEED during the first couple years so that there Retic gets bigger faster, which sets them up for ultimately growing to a larger size than one that was fed a HEALTHY amount throughout these first two years. Managing there growth is simply feeding healthy, not too much. And as I thought I had made it obvious NOT TOO LITTLE

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## cstruthers

Many people feed there Retic whenever it will eat thinking that just because it will eat, it is hungry. Retics have a great feeding response which often turns out bad for them because people feed them too frequently just because they will eat.

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## AkHerps

I'm asking a question as to how much YOU would feed a retic, as in, what has your research shown you? In your opinion what is a healthy amount?  Most care sheets and breeder web sites say once a week for really young snakes, should it be different from that?

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## cstruthers

With apropriate sized food, once a week up until 1-2 years then cut back to 1 every 1 1/2 weeks then up to1 every 2 weeks and so on... As they grow older their metabolism slows down so they dont need to eat as often, just larger prey. Of cource each retic will differ in the size prey it will eat and therefore differ slightly in the frequency of feeding.

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## cstruthers

And i know that most breeder sites say once a week when young, the same thing I say. But reality is your average joe thinks he knows what his snake wants and needs and therefor does not do what is right for the snake. Joe wants a big snake so he feeds to get a big snake. And this is where most, not all, of your bigger retics come from, those that were overfed

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## AkHerps

Yeah I think our older ball python would keep eating every day until he couldn't eat anymore, he's such a piggy, but he's on a strict 7-10 day diet with a small rat.  Although the people who had him before us had him on one small mouse every 10 days!  He's a pretty large snake, almost 40 inches, a little mouse is like a dog treat xP

I don't think overfeeding is bad, but it just makes the snake reach it's full potential too fast?  Like feeding a large breed puppy food that is way too high in protein makes the puppy grow super fast(although that can kill XL breeds of dogs)

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## cstruthers

> I don't think overfeeding is bad, but it just makes the snake reach it's full potential too fast?  Like feeding a large breed puppy food that is way too high in protein makes the puppy grow super fast(although that can kill XL breeds of dogs)


Here is another reference to humans....... If a person "overfeeds" and "reaches its full potential too fast" this is called obesity. This is the same thing in snakes.. When a snake is overfed, it gains the size through fat, not muscle. This results in an unhealthy snake and a shorter lifespan, just like in humans. If a snake is fed the correct amount, it builds more muscle and does not have the fat issues, so it is therefor an overall healthier snake.

And the whole protien thing is a totally seperate issue. Too much protien in a diet without other supplements to balance the protien out can lead to a totally different range of health issues... The same reason that they say you cant live off of rabbits if you are stranded in the wild because of their high muscle content (which means very high protien in their meat) and very low fat content.

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## Hypancistrus

> I don't think overfeeding is bad, but it just makes the snake reach it's full potential too fast?  Like feeding a large breed puppy food that is way too high in protein makes the puppy grow super fast(although that can kill XL breeds of dogs)


This is an interesting topic (minus all the flaming, of course). I will be getting my first burm next week at Daytona, so I've been re-reading a lot of the materials online about large pythons and their growth. I, too, have read a few articles that suggest that growth can be safely controlled by the size prey you offer.

NERD's article, which is on retics, so I've not read it before, implies that yes, you can keep them from growing so fast by feeding smaller meals, but that if you go too small, they are hungrier and therefore more likely to attack you when being handled, thus putting you and your snake into a dangerous situation.

So it appears the question is... what size prey is TOO small for safety, but not so large as to cause excessively fast growth, i.e. power-feeding caliber growth??

I know in the cornsnake community there is some annecdotal evidence that snakes who were power fed as babies to achieve breeding size ASAP have shortened lifespans. I myself have always been a more conservative feeder with my snakes because of this.

Has anyone found the same to be true with burms and retics that were power fed as babies?? 

This is one of the articles I found and read re: Burmese python feeding and growth. It is from Reptiles Magazine, circa 1998.

http://www.bobclark.com/aAN_98.asp




> The growth rate of Burmese pythons can be influenced by several factors, with the snakes being capable of an almost unbelievable rate of growth under ideal conditions. Burmese pythons that are kept at temperatures in the mid- to high-80s, and that are fed all they will eat twice a week (on average), can reach a length of nearly 10 feet in one years' time. In contrast, I know of a Burmese that was fed only one mouse every 10 days, and in seven years it reached a length of only slightly more than 4'/, feet. I obtained this snake, and after a year of heavy feeding it reached a length of 11 feet.


So obviously 10' in one year seems akin to power feeding, while 4.5 feet in 7 years is not acceptable. It does not appear to stunt the growth, however, if Clark was able to get it to 11 foot with more frequent and larger feedings.

Good topic.

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cstruthers (08-12-2010)

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## cstruthers

I too find it a very interesting topic (when it is discussed without accusations and out of place comments lol). I personally believe in "size management." And by this term I only mean feeding a healthy amount to make the snake, doesnt matter if it is a burm, retic, or a ball python, and not overfeeding.

As I have said in my other posts, your average snake keeper will powerfeed their snake. This is more common with larger species but I also know it happens ALOT with ball pythons and some other species as well. Because when most people buy a retic or burm specifically, they are buying it for the size it will get. And most of us on here are Americans and we dont like waiting for things lol. And therefore we WANT IT NOW!! So people feed them too much and too big of prey items to reach that bigger size that they want faster. This, I believe, will result in a bigger snake but also shortened life span. But people get bored fast anyway so who cares if it only lives 10 years as long as you can show it off to your friends and tell people you have a 20+ foot snake in your house (this is NOT my view point, but its the truth).

Now the whole story about the guy only feeding a mouse every 10 days and the 4' 7yr old burm.... That just cant be healthy, but hey at least it lived. And im surprised that it grew to 11' that fast when it is that old. I mean that kind of growth normally only happens in the first few years. But I guess powerfeeding works at any age. But I would say that powerfeeding after being fed that little for so long would make the situation worse... Maybe if he slowly built the amount of food up over a year but going strait to powerfeeding had to pack on some major fat really fast which is never good no matter what kind of animal you are talking about.

But hey snakes are pretty hardy animals aparently because I have personally come across some pretty bad situations and the snakes still seem, for the most part, healthy. I work with them everyday and hear people talk about how some of these animals are being kept.... All I can do is tell them the right way to do things, I cant make them. Every week I have to sell the same guy 4 medium rats for his not even full grown ball python. He feeds him all of them at a time because he said he likes the "more full body look". I always tell him it isnt healthy but I forgot that all owners know what their snake likes and doesnt like and they know whats best for the snake, the people that work with them for a living dont know what they are talking about. I've never had any of my snakes talk to me, I guess Im just not smart enough to understand my snake.... God I hate idiots! And yes if anyone is ready this post and is offended because you "know what your snake likes and doesnt like." Please sell your animal or give it to someone else. Send me a message and i'll come pick up your snake. I honestly care more about the animals than I care about hurting someone's feelings or just selling more products at work. Thats why I am in the field im in.

Sorry I have a lot to say about topics like these lol.

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## Bellabob

I would get a burm, but retics are known to be more smart (which is why I would rather have a burm.)

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## retic720

Retics.

Yeah...biased and all...but still, once you go retic, you got the best pick! hahaha.

On a serious note, I like retics because they have more variety; I'm not referring to morphs but more on the locales. For instance, I'm a fan of retics from my native country; based on what I've read/heard from fellow retic keepers here, the further south (of the Philippines) you go, the bigger they get. And yes, retics from the northern areas of the Philippines are smaller and maybe comparable to the SD retics I'm seeing in the forums. 

Just to prove a point, this is a (most prolly WC) retic I obtained last 2006; this pic was taken sometime 02/2010



For the sake of avoiding a "you suck as a snake keeper", i fed her regularly; until her 2nd year, she was fed once a week (appropriately sized rat OR multiple mice and chicks per feeding); I occasionally give her raw chicken heads as treats (NEVER as the main meal). From her 2nd year onwards, she eats 2x a month. I had diff. vets look at her and they all agreed that her health bill is clean; no parasites, nada. She was a mean pusher but that's besides the point I guess. 

Now, this is Prony, a well known captive retic in Bohol (also in the Philippines)



Unless a Sulawesi managed to swim from Indonesia all the way to Bohol, I'm quite sure Prony's a 100% "Filipino retic" 

Bottomline: if you willing to invest time to "calm down" a beautiful animal, get a retic. If you prefer a more laid back pretty giant, go for a burm. 

*
On the whole "Feeding debate"*

I want my retics to be like this:



....and NOT like this...



Here are a few articles on feeding too much/irresponsible feeding:

http://community.livejournal.com/herpers/1595022.html (WARNING: VERY graphic...but still a VERY good eye opener when it comes to snake feeding. Also read the comments)

http://www.reptilechannel.com/snakes...ing-snake.aspx (written by a Vet)

YouTube - SnakeBytesTV "Snakes as Pets Vs. Breeders (c/o BHB)

As far as I'm concerned, more and more snake keepers should practice responsible feeding (not too large like an adult rabbit for a ball python and not to small like an adult mouse for a 7 foot long burm). 

Just a Q: supposedly, someone in our local forums challenged the ideas present in the LJ link posted above and claimed that the Barkers released an article that it's "okay to overfeed/powerfeed" pythons. Can anyone point me to where I can read this article? I once emailed Brian of BHB about this and he's also not aware of any article from the Barkers about over feeding.

thanks and I hope our feedback would help the OP on picking between a retic and a burm  :Wink:

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_Melody_ (05-26-2011)

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## mainbutter

> If you prefer a more laid back pretty giant, go for a burm.


I'm going to have to chime in real quick.

I feel the above sentiment towards burms is pretty common among herpers, and I feel it is terribly undeserved.

Sure, burms generally don't cruise like carpet pythons or mambas, but owners should never be lulled into a sense of "burms are lacking energy".. or even a sense of "burms are tame".  Plenty of burms have a tendency to be pretty snappish, even as adolescents and adults.

I like to say that retics will interact with their surroundings, and your burm will always be plotting and waiting for the right moment.. lol.

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## Jadonh

Average size for a male retic is 15-18 ft. Average size for female retic is 17-20.. Average for a male burm, 12-15, female is 18-20. As said before monitor, food intake. and you will be fine. I have also read these averages, but in my experience they are about right. I have also found that my burms are easier to handle, and yes retics are extremely smart. Not human smart of course, but smart non the less. you hurt it rather it be on purpose or accident, it will remember.  If you have not had large snakes before I believe in my opinion that a burm would be better. Till you have more experience.

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## loonunit

Retic! Brains AND beauty, man.

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## Dundee

A female burm will be alot more heavier than a male retic in my opinion. I got a male retic hes around 10-12ft. They do study as i was treating him for mites (when i get him) he perked his head off the ground watching me (not in a deffensive postition either like to see what i was doing then turned around and went on about his business) He has a very docile temperment. But very curious of his surroundings. I like burmese pythons dont get me wrong. But theres alot of retic morphs out there. I thought about about a burmese as my first snake over 10ft. But i went with a male retic due to the fact there not as bulky, as the burmese. Just be prepared to open your wallet for food and housing.

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## HatRabbitSnakes

I was recently faced with this same choice....and chose a male albino green burmese Het granite. Have to wait for the weather to warm up before the breeder can ship him, but I feel I made the right choice for myself.

I feel this way because we need to as responsible individuals base most of our descisions on our experience and abilities. If you've worked with retics, and feel you've gained the proper experience to own and care for one then awesome. Get a retic. If you've worked with burmese pythons, then get one of those-even if you worked with retics still get one cause their just crazy cool to chill wit. Personally I don't have the experience with retics so I didnt get one...but man.... I saw this male citrus at a local expo and i almost impulse bought it. The morphs are just crazy amazing with retics, and unlike ball pythons the personality is THERE!! 

btw, I got your point on feeding the snake a healthy amount as to avoid the problems associated with powerfeeding which can easily occure with snakes that possess such a heavey feeding response and ability to grow quickly-though some people i dont think care if their snake only lives 5-10 years...personally i want 25-30years  though cause snakes arent a prison sentence and the longer we can live with them the better :Smile:

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## Jadonh

I have both and if looking for something your family is more comfortable with then go with a burm, if you want something that is more active but as stated above BRAINS then go for retics. I have both and by far love the retics, however buttercup my burm is by far my wifes favorite This is because at 12 foot he is more laid back and easier to handle, for me its the brains, the intelligence that retics have.

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## cstruthers

Just figured I would tell everybody that I ended up getting a baby male tiger retic. I feel I made the right choice. I needed something that was a challenge keeping because working with so many different species everyday just makes everything such a routine and there is nothing routine about a retic lol. I posted pics a while back when I got him, he is growing like a beast though I cant wait for him to get big! He is going to be a sweetie! Well, for a retic lol.

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## Jadonh

Nice decision

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## Slyther83

Tiger retics look absolutely amazing- however I couldn't concieve of caring for one without having multiple nearby snake-friendly friends to assist. Do you need a license to have one of those?

This is my nightmare- a 6-8 foot reach while still in the cage- wow, lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdp7TKdps9c

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## ShortStack

> This is my nightmare- a 6-8 foot reach while still in the cage- wow, lol.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdp7TKdps9c


Am I the only one that watched this and felt like these were a couple of idiots? I don't know, just a feeling I got in the short clip.

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_Jason Bowden_ (05-08-2011)

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## Slyther83

> Am I the only one that watched this and felt like these were a couple of idiots? I don't know, just a feeling I got in the short clip.


Oh I agree, clearly they are idiots. However, I just can't concieve of the managability issues involved with a pet that is physically uncontrollable.

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## ShortStack

> Oh I agree, clearly they are idiots. However, I just can't concieve of the managability issues involved with a pet that is physically uncontrollable.


Well I wasn't sure because I know NOTHING about handling an animal that size, but even common sense told me that looked pretty careless. And as amazing as those snakes are, I can't imagine having one either.

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_Jason Bowden_ (05-08-2011)

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## Denial

What you are seeing in the video is a feeding response. They are strong and the are very powerful but they are also manageable if you know what you are doing. They are great animals to own if you are prepared for the responsibility that comes with it.

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_Jason Bowden_ (05-08-2011)

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## Jason Bowden

Yeah,  I probably got the wrong first impression.

I have some boas that come and try eat sometimes when I get around their enclosure. 

Don't think the big hungry snake grabbing a live bunny is what reptile hobbyist need to be showing on youtube.

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## mumps

> Don't think the big hungry snake grabbing a live bunny is what reptile hobbyist need to be showing on youtube.


I totally agree.  Even if the snake only takes live (which should have been dealt with as a hatchling), this fact should have been explained by the poster.

It really is a shame how many "cool to watch it kill" reptile owners there are.

Chris

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_Melody_ (08-02-2011)

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## lk_holla

as far as burm vs. retic, I've never handled a retic or had much experience with them, but I fostered a burm for several months and I must say he was the most interesting snake i've ever had. he had a personality and you could almost tell what he was thinking as he lurked around his cage and followed the happenings in the room. while he never struck defensively, he definitely made good warning and he ate like a fiend. He was a gorgeous snake and I was really sad to have him go to a new home once I found one.

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## Denial

ive got to say I was never into watching them eat. And to be honest I hate feeding day. It takes all day to get everyone fed and its just boring. Most of my animals eat ft but I do have some picky ones that eat live. Watching other animals suffer even just is not my thing. Even though it has to be done for snakes to survive it should be done in private. The only videos we need on youtube is responsible people showing cages and locks

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_babyknees_ (06-03-2011),_grits_ (05-26-2011),_Melody_ (05-26-2011),_mumps_ (05-24-2011),_stratus_020202_ (05-26-2011)

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## Melody

Seriously people, stop. The point of this post was not about overfeeding and starving retics, it was about our opinion on if we rather own a burm or a retic. While I personally believe that you can manage your snakes growth to a certain extent and still have a healthy snake, my opinon on that debate was not asked.
 And regardless of how you want to look at it, size does not eveything to do with weight. As long as the body condition of the animal is healthy, it does not matter if it has shorter length. And he said that even if the snake DOES get exceed the length he'd hoped for, he can/will still handle and care for it properly, and in the end thats whats important.
 ANYWAY, I personally would choose a retic. I love burms(Albinos are my favorites!), however retics definitly seem to have more personality and tend to look a lot more majestic and beautiful.
 Good Luck!  :Smile:

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## Denial

burmese pythons and reticulated pythons were not made to have there length "managed".

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## Slyther83

Retics all the way  :Wink:

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## toiletarms

ok, this is how i'm going to break this down. i've got some retics and know alot of people (including reputable breeders) that keep retics and these are my observations and opinions. 1. there is no such thing as managing a retics size. 2. if your retic is under 15 feet at 5 years old, it's either starved or a dwarf, male or female. 3 females grow insanely fast. they WILL be 12+ feet or more by the time they are 2 years old unless they are starved or dwarves. 4. if you try to "manage thier size" by feeding them less often, it's only going to piss it off and once it;s big enough to think it can take you on, maybe even sonner, it will try. these are retics people. they are VERY intelligent, but at the same time very primitive. even the smartest retic won't deny its instincts. when you're taking on a new species, don't approach it as something that you can keep small. plan ahead for what it's potential truely is. if you can;t keep a 16-25 foot snake, don't get a full sized mainland retic or you're just making those of us who can look bad when you fail. i'll also point out that when breeders say thier males are generally 12-13 feet, that;s because they powerfeed them for the first year of thier life and then cut them off to barely enough to keep them healthy because fat males make for lazy breeders. however, if you aren;t breeding your retic and it isn;t going off food for brumation, it could easily reach the size of a small female. and grantyed the "average" for a female is considered to be 18 feet (ish), just about every keeper out there with a serious collection has at least 2 or 3 that are way bigger, so really you never know. but i stand by my statement, if you areb;t prepared to take care of a potentially monsterous snake, don't get a retic.

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## Slyther83

> well there is a new record holder on the 33 footer lol here's a vid
> 
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3845750/from/toolbar


I know this is an old post, but that snake turned out to be like 20-22 feet and a couple hundred pounds. There are quite a few retics larger than that in the US alone.

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## WJS

I know this is old but a big pet peeve of mine is the brains debate when it comes to burmese vs retics. A retic is not any smarter than a burmese is. It comes down to individual snakes just like people. Sorry I will step of my soap box now.  :Very Happy:

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_mainbutter_ (07-26-2011)

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## Slyther83

> I know this is old but a big pet peeve of mine is the brains debate when it comes to burmese vs retics. A retic is not any smarter than a burmese is. It comes down to individual snakes just like people. Sorry I will step of my soap box now.


There are different ways to measure intelligence, IMO. Retics are much more aware of their surroundings than any burm is.

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## mainbutter

> There are different ways to measure intelligence, IMO. Retics are much more aware of their surroundings than any burm is.


The way I look at it, burms are much more stationary while they take visual input from their environment.

Retics explore.

Burms plot.

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## lk_holla

> Burms plot.


 :ROFL:  so true!

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## Slyther83

> The way I look at it, burms are much more stationary while they take visual input from their environment.
> 
> Retics explore.
> 
> Burms plot.



If by plot you mean fall asleep and wake up when they get tapped on the head, then I'll cosign with that, lol. 

I tease though, I really think burms are awesome. Their t-rex heads and patterns are great and their calm disposition is among the best of the larger snake species on the planet for sure.

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## d_mcclelland

For ease of care and I would go with a burmese.  I adore retics, and agree that they are more intelligent.  I have found that intelligence is not always a good thing in companion animals.  It is my most intelligent animals that present the most and largest challenges.

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## Jeremy Browning

i say male burm but if i had to choose female burm woul win much nicer and a little heavier but wont try to kill you when u open its cage.

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