# Other Pythons > Morelia >  Okay. Help me decide here.

## Nitewolfie

I have a young bredli. Now that he's out of quarantine I want to move him to my 40 gal front open enclosure(I will upgrade to a 4x2x2 or bigger when he gets bigger, been debating on ordering or making one)

So I've kept BPs prior to him. I've kept them all on either paper towels or the repti liner from a gecko and his pj's. Which is super easy to clean lol.  
I've been debating for when I move my Bredli to the 40 gallon to either stay with the repti-liner, start using eco-earth or kind of in a way do half and half. One side repti liner, one side eco earth. 
I feed thawed and in the enclosure. I've heard people talk about incidents where their snake ingests substrate so I've stayed away from loose substrates. 
I guess I'm just looking for someone to ease my mind about using loose substrate. 
Also, if anyone can show pictures of their carpets enclosure that'd be helpful! And tips! I currently have a few hides and a few pieces of driftwood, but I want to get a bit creative. 

Thank you in advanced!

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## Homebody

> I have a young bredli. Now that he's out of quarantine I want to move him to my 40 gal front open enclosure(I will upgrade to a 4x2x2 or bigger when he gets bigger, been debating on ordering or making one)
> 
> So I've kept BPs prior to him. I've kept them all on either paper towels or the repti liner from a gecko and his pj's. Which is super easy to clean lol.  
> I've been debating for when I move my Bredli to the 40 gallon to either stay with the repti-liner, start using eco-earth or kind of in a way do half and half. One side repti liner, one side eco earth. 
> I feed thawed and in the enclosure. I've heard people talk about incidents where their snake ingests substrate so I've stayed away from loose substrates. 
> I guess I'm just looking for someone to ease my mind about using loose substrate. 
> Also, if anyone can show pictures of their carpets enclosure that'd be helpful! And tips! I currently have a few hides and a few pieces of driftwood, but I want to get a bit creative. 
> 
> Thank you in advanced!


For my Children's python, I use half repti-carpet and half loose substrate (paper shreds). Pics of my set up:
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/sho...mageuser=79455
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/sho...mageuser=79455
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/sho...mageuser=79455
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/sho...mageuser=79455.

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_nikkubus_ (08-26-2022),Nitewolfie (08-25-2022)

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## Nitewolfie

So the paper shreds are underneath?
That looks cool btw! Did you build it yourself?

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_Homebody_ (08-26-2022)

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## Homebody

> So the paper shreds are underneath?
> That looks cool btw! Did you build it yourself?


Thanks.  I did.  I built it for my ball python.  I had him in a tub, but he started to injure himself trying to escape.  So, I decided to give him a terrarium to escape into.  It worked well for him and it's been working well for my Children's python.  

If you decide to build your enclosure along these lines, it's really simple.  It's just a box with a shelf.  You don't need anything you can't get from your local Lowes or Home Depot.

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Nitewolfie (08-26-2022)

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## Homebody

> So the paper shreds are underneath?


Yes.  The paper shreds are in the tub underneath.  I feed my snake on the repti-carpet.  So, I don't have to worry about him ingesting substrate.

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## Gio

Nothing wrong with loose substrate.
I've had every snake here ingest some substrate over the years. They get it in the wild they get it in captivity, and I'd say 99.9% of the time there is never an issue.
Maybe some larger, hard and pointy substrate could cause an issue, but monitoring the feeding is a good practice so you should see a potential issue. I've used feeding tongs on a few occasions to pull some coco husk out of a mouth.

I really like to coco chips. I use a mix for the boa. but the Bredli can sit on dry substrate and the coco chips eventually replicate an arid desert floor to some extent.

He's on coconut husk here and hasn't had any issues.


Of the 4 snakes here, the Bredli is the most arboreal, however very snake here, even the Royal will hit the perches.




Go natural and enjoy!

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_Homebody_ (08-26-2022),Nitewolfie (08-26-2022)

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## Nitewolfie

> Nothing wrong with loose substrate.
> I've had every snake here ingest some substrate over the years. They get it in the wild they get it in captivity, and I'd say 99.9% of the time there is never an issue.
> Maybe some larger, hard and pointy substrate could cause an issue, but monitoring the feeding is a good practice so you should see a potential issue. I've used feeding tongs on a few occasions to pull some coco husk out of a mouth.



See that's what I thought, they eat on whatever substrate in the wild. 
I'm thinking of doing half and half or all eco earth. I feel like doing half and half would look really cool. But I also want to do more natural like enclosure. 

Thank you guys for your input!

Also he's beautiful!

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Gio (08-26-2022),_Homebody_ (08-26-2022)

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## dakski

I use paper substrate. In a good PVC enclosure and with a big water bowl, humidity isn't an issue and cleanup is easy. I go for cleanliness and function over form. Yafe is happy as long as he can climb and has adequate heat and humidity as well as his ground hides (which he rarely uses - he's a great display snake). 

Yafe was lost in shipment when I got him and had a terrible RI that I cured him of. He's been trouble free since (about 3 1/2 years) and has grown to about 1.5kg from 100g. Humidity and temps are obvisouly important, but especially for him since he's already had an RI. Keep in mind though that too much humidity isn't good either. You may have to experiment if you use "natural" looking substrate. 

My take is the snakes do not care and it's more important to keep them clean and healthy instead of the tank looking good. I also have limited time and energy and 9 tanks, so paper works for me. 

Having said that, if you have the time and energy, go for a great looking naturalistic enclosure. Carpets are great display snakes and spend a lot of time out in the open. If you are going to choose a tank to do that with, a carpet tank makes a lot of sense.

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_Homebody_ (08-28-2022),Nitewolfie (08-29-2022)

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## Nitewolfie

He's beautiful! I'm sorry he got lost and got RI. I'm glad he's doing good now though!

Dumb question. I've seen perches that go across the enclosure like what you have. How do you get them to stay up like that?

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_dakski_ (08-29-2022)

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## dakski

> He's beautiful! I'm sorry he got lost and got RI. I'm glad he's doing good now though!
> 
> Dumb question. I've seen perches that go across the enclosure like what you have. How do you get them to stay up like that?


Thank you! Yeah, he's been perfect for years. No signs of RI, eats like a pig, bright and vibrant. He has also always been a real chill dude. I was worried the RI treatment would throw him off, or that he was just chill because he was sick. To this day, aside from some occasional hissing if I wake him up, he's a real sweet guy. 

Not a dumb question. I got the tank from Jeff Ronne, the Boaphile, and it's one of his arboreal tanks. He installs little PVC blocks at an angle to make "V" on each side that the PVC pipe can sit in. The weight of the PVC pipe keeps them in place. If you wanted to be safe, you could drill a little hole in the middle of the "V" and put a rod through the hollow PVC to keep in it place. The blocks are screwed and glued in. 

I imagine you could do a similar install on any PVC tank, but would want to check the angle of each block and the size of each block to make sure the PVC sits in properly and with a little depth so it doesn't just roll out. 

Either way, you want them to be removable to clean the tank and the PVC perches.

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*Bogertophis* (08-29-2022),_Homebody_ (08-29-2022),Nitewolfie (08-29-2022)

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## Homebody

> Not a dumb question. I got the tank from Jeff Ronne, the Boaphile, and it's one of his arboreal tanks. He installs little PVC blocks at an angle to make "V" on each side that the PVC pipe can sit in. The weight of the PVC pipe keeps them in place. If you wanted to be safe, you could drill a little hole in the middle of the "V" and put a rod through the hollow PVC to keep in it place. The blocks are screwed and glued in. 
> 
> I imagine you could do a similar install on any PVC tank, but would want to check the angle of each block and the size of each block to make sure the PVC sits in properly and with a little depth so it doesn't just roll out. 
> 
> Either way, you want them to be removable to clean the tank and the PVC perches.


Couldn't you just use these?

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Gio (08-29-2022)

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## Gio

* "I've seen perches that go across the enclosure like what you have. How do you get them to stay up like that?"*


Perches are a fairly easy install.

I mixed wood dowels wrapped with fake vines and real branches. 3 of my 4 cages have a real branch of some type in it.

I used V brackets for my perch systems. There are many options that will work. This is what the brackets look like screwed into the cage.




This cage is made of HDPE. The maker no longer builds and sells cages. Constrictors Northwest (Pro-Line Cages)




I no longer have this retic, however, every snake here uses the perches in their cage. That includes the royal.



If you have a Bredli, I'd 100% recommend perches.






The perches are easily removed, and the cages are easily cleaned.

There are advantages to natural substrate other than looks. It is absorbent and can be spot cleaned rapidly. Your animal won't be crawling around in damp urine if you aren't around when they empty. It doesn't need to be changed as frequently as paper and when you do change it out, a dust pan and paper bag is about all you need. I will vacuum everything out and use bleach and water during a "power clean" but spot cleaning is very easy.

Another benefit over paper or something with a smooth surface is reduced stress. I'd have to dig for it, but there was a study showing snakes apparently feeling more secure with something they could crawl on that gave them traction.

You could solve slippery surface issues with paper by offering ground decor and obviously perches above.

Hopefully this helps you out. A naturalistic cage really isn't a lot of work. Unless you have an enormous collection, there isn't a lot of extra effort to enjoy the setup.


With a little thought and work in the beginning, you will see the rewards afterwards.

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*Bogertophis* (08-29-2022),_Homebody_ (08-29-2022),Nitewolfie (08-29-2022)

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## Homebody

> I mixed wood dowels wrapped with fake vines and real branches. 3 of my 4 cages have a real branch of some type in it.
> 
> I used V brackets for my perch systems.


One advantage of the V brackets over the closet pole flanges that I suggested would be the ability to use perches of varying shapes and sizes.

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Gio (08-29-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> ...There are advantages to natural substrate other than looks. It is absorbent and can be spot cleaned rapidly. Your animal won't be crawling around in damp urine if you aren't around when they empty. It doesn't need to be changed as frequently as paper and when you do change it out, a dust pan and paper bag is about all you need. I will vacuum everything out and use bleach and water during a "power clean" but spot cleaning is very easy.
> 
> Another benefit over paper or something with a smooth surface is reduced stress. I'd have to dig for it, but there was a study showing snakes apparently feeling more secure with something they could crawl on that gave them traction....


 :Good Job: 

That last part- about snakes needing traction- is something that became obvious to me thru many years keeping many snakes  (& is really just common sense too), so "instinctively" I've never used any sort of paper* to line snake cages, other than layers of paper towels for hatchlings- & I mean the good ones (like Bounty) that have texture & are very absorbent.  

I just cringe every time I see anyone suggesting newspaper to line cages with- as excrement just lays there on top for the snake to slide through- & by itself, newspaper is very slick.

Snakes rely so much on traction that I can see where it would be just as awful for them to be kept only on smooth paper substrate as it would be for us if we lived on an ice rink.  But at least we have hands to grab on with... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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Gio (08-29-2022)

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## Nitewolfie

This is what I've done with his enclosure(so far.  There's also a reptile expo in September that will have a lot more stuff then petstores here)

Also, I've always had a feeling snakes weren't always comfortable on surfaces like paper. I'm gonna start switching over my BPs to different substrate as well.

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Animallover3541 (08-30-2022),*Bogertophis* (08-29-2022),Gio (08-29-2022),_Homebody_ (08-29-2022)

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## dakski

> This is what I've done with his enclosure(so far.  There's also a reptile expo in September that will have a lot more stuff then petstores here)
> 
> Also, I've always had a feeling snakes weren't always comfortable on surfaces like paper. I'm gonna start switching over my BPs to different substrate as well.


Paper has its pros and cons. 

Pro is it's easy to clean. Con is looks and traction. Traction is not an issue for most snakes, especially with printless newspaper as it's a little rougher. However, not perfect either. 

I wouldn't worry too much about traction though. 

On your enclosure, you probably want a bigger, but still shallow, water bowl for now to keep humidity up. I would also try to add some more climbing and potentially another hide. 

https://flukerfarms.com/bamboo-bars/

The above are great for glass tanks. I used them for Yafe when he was in quarantine in a 14g plastic tank. 

Good luck and keep us posted.

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_Homebody_ (08-29-2022),Nitewolfie (08-29-2022)

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## Nitewolfie

I have a bigger water bowl I could put in there instead of the small one that's already in there. 

Well two. One is bigger but not sturdy. My adult ball python kept tipping it over. Other one I can put in there is much bigger and deeper then the current one I have in there. 

I'll also look into seeing if I can get the bamboo perches around here or something similar

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_dakski_ (08-29-2022)

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## Homebody

> Paper has its pros and cons. 
> 
> Pro is it's easy to clean. Con is looks and traction. Traction is not an issue for most snakes, especially with printless newspaper as it's a little rougher. However, not perfect either. 
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about traction though.


I kept my BP on newspaper for a while so I'll add a note in its defense.  It's true that paper is more slippery that coco bark, but it goes too far to say snakes can't get traction.  My BP wasn't always flailing about helpless.  He moved around well enough.  It's also not as absorbent as eco earth, but it is absorbent.  My BP didn't lie in a puddle of urine until I came along.  The paper absorbed the urine well enough to keep it confined in one area that my BP avoided.  So, I agree that paper is slipperier and less absorbent, but it's also cheaper and much easier to clean up.  I get my newspaper for free.  For most, it's not an added expense because it's recycled.  While I agree that cleaning up substrate isn't difficult, it's a lot harder than paper.  I'd bet dakski could clean 4 or 5 of his enclosures before Gio cleaned one of his.  So, I think whether you use paper or substrate should come down to what works best for you.

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_dakski_ (08-30-2022),Nitewolfie (08-30-2022)

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## Gio

> i kept my bp on newspaper for a while so i'll add a note in its defense.  It's true that paper is more slippery that coco bark, but it goes too far to say snakes can't get traction.  My bp wasn't always flailing about helpless.  He moved around well enough.  It's also not as absorbent as eco earth, but it is absorbent.  My bp didn't lie in a puddle of urine until i came along.  The paper absorbed the urine well enough to keep it confined in one area that my bp avoided.  So, i agree that paper is slipperier and less absorbent, but it's also cheaper and much easier to clean up.  I get my newspaper for free.  For most, it's not an added expense because it's recycled.  While i agree that cleaning up substrate isn't difficult, it's a lot harder than paper.  *i'd bet dakski could clean 4 or 5 of his enclosures before gio cleaned one of his.  So, i think whether you use paper or substrate should come down to what works best for you.*




I would take that bet any day. I'd have 2-3 minutes to make up at the most and that's for a full clean out. I have a very practical room setup. A vacuum is steps away if the dustpan doesn't get it all.

With paper sub, you still have to crumple up all of your paper, toss it, get the new stuff and lay it out in the cage just right. I scoop, throw away and dump another bag. I've used both and the time savings just isn't a giant benefit with the caging I have here. With multiple racks, I would see a plus side.

Paper is in need of changing out far more often than quality substrate. You can re-add time saved when you are changing 3 times to my one. My old retic was on paper for a while, I changed him out a couple of times a day or more and he'd push the paper to one side of the cage leaving the other side bare. He was a messy fella and a jerk.

The benefits of paper favor the human more than the animal. Natural sub is simply more natural. That said, paper is great for detecting issues/illnesses with the snake, and I'd quickly go that route for a sick or suspected sick snake. 

But hey, this isn't a debate about what substrate to use. Use what you want, it matters not to me. 

The hobby is different for each of us. I personally prefer a display setting. I bought the animals to watch them. I enjoy seeing their behaviors and try to offer the most natural setting I can within reason.

As mentioned do what works for you.

You won't clean 4-5 similar enclosures to mine before I'm done with one though LOL!

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*Bogertophis* (08-30-2022),_dakski_ (08-30-2022),Nitewolfie (08-30-2022)

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## Homebody

> [/i][/b]I would take that bet any day. I'd have 2-3 minutes to make up at the most and that's for a full clean out.


I'm impressed, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.  You are BP.net Royalty and all.  I suppose I was really imagining how long it would take me to clean the substrate out one of your enclosures compared to how long it would take me to clean the paper out of dakski's.

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_dakski_ (08-30-2022)

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## Homebody

> [/i][/b]My old retic was on paper for a while, I changed him out a couple of times a day or more and he'd push the paper to one side of the cage leaving the other side bare. He was a messy fella and a jerk.


For species that eliminate often or in great quantities, paper's relative lack of absorbency becomes a bigger con.

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## Gio

> For species that eliminate often or in great quantities, paper's relative lack of absorbency becomes a bigger con.


I don't recommend that species for the most part to anybody.

They are extremely interesting and very entertaining but far too much work for my personal liking.

Natural sub or paper does little when they mess up the sides of the cage, the windows and whatever else. 

True story,,,

Almost all of the snakes here now dump out in their water bowls. Great for overall cleaning, but its very annoying especially after changing the water since they time it with a freshly changed bowl.

I'd prefer they eliminate in the water that's ready to be changed instead of the fresh stuff.

See what "Royalty" gets you?

I'm a janitor with a fancy title I guess.

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*Bogertophis* (08-30-2022),_dakski_ (08-30-2022),_Homebody_ (08-30-2022)

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## Homebody

> Almost all of the snakes here now dump out in their water bowls.


Ah, yes, the water bowl dump.  That can be a challenge for paper to absorb.  If you're going to use paper, you need a stable water bowl.

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*Bogertophis* (08-30-2022),Gio (08-30-2022)

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