# Feeders > General Feeders >  Morals and ethics of snake as feeders (what do you do with your normal spin-off)

## BPGator

> Wholesale...... Some went to petstores and some went as feeders.


What do you feed them to? You feed them live or euthanize them first?


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## Ernie Mccracken

King cobras gotta eat, right?

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## PitOnTheProwl

> What do you feed them to? You feed them live or euthanize them first?


Kingsnake breeders. Dont know what they do.
I had a couple hatchlings that were kinked bad, my Mexican Blacks made quick work in them. Its hard for me to watch but I have seen people just throw their normal in the freezer then trash them. I cant see wasting a life......

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_AbsoluteApril_ (04-04-2018),_Sonny1318_ (04-03-2018)

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## cchardwick

Actually it's not humane to freeze any animal to death, if an animal rights group catches you they can confiscate all your animals, I've seen articles about it.  If you want to euthanize a snake it's best to use CO2 until you knock them out, then decapitate them (CO2 won't kill them, just put them to sleep).

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_Team Slytherin_ (04-04-2018)

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## Sauzo

> Actually it's not humane to freeze any animal to death, if an animal rights group catches you they can confiscate all your animals, I've seen articles about it.  If you want to euthanize a snake it's best to use CO2 until you knock them out, then decapitate them (CO2 won't kill them, just put them to sleep).
> 
> I've seen pet stores sell a Normal for as much as $100 (actually $110 with tax).  Here in Colorado at the shows they usually group them by sex and put them in multiples in show cases and sell them for $20 or $25, even more in other states.  Wholesalers will give you $15 each and pay for the shipping but you have to have at least 10 of them.  Using adult size normal females is a great way to expand your breeding operation at a low cost, they are cheap and if you spend more money on a good male they can be very productive.  I actually have three Normal females and two normal het Caramel Albino breeders.  
> 
> If you use a 'dull looking' five or six gene male you'll get a rainbow of different combos from those Normals.  In fact I know that most big breeders tend to hang on to their Normal females, not only can you get some neat snakes from them you can also prove out unknown males.  Even a large Normal male can sell for up to $100 and would make a fantastic pet.  I have one Normal female that I think may be a brand new morph and I'm hoping to prove her out.  If you have a keen eye you can pick up something brand new for next to nothing.


Wha?? CO2 sure will kill them if you leave them in there long enough just like any other animal that breathes air. How do you think CO2 chambers are made for rats. You use a paintball gun cartridge in a tub with a screw type valve. And i dont know if i agree that even gas chambers are that humane either. I mean they darn well know they cant breath and i would imagine they are stressing. It's like if you were put in a CO2 chamber lol. I mean rats arent humans but anything will know if it is losing the ability to breath.

Oh or some make a MacGuyver chamber with dry ice in a small container with holes inside a larger tub with the rats in it.

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## Sunnieskys

Sell them as food? Wtf! That is just not right! That makes me so angry on so many levels. We breed snakes because we love them and to sell them off so king cobras can eat them?  I can't...I just cant! I am appalled!

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Nz2500 (09-15-2018),Sgt7212 (04-04-2018)

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## Sauzo

> Sell them as food? Wtf! That is just not right! That makes me so angry on so many levels. We breed snakes because we love them and to sell them off so king cobras can eat them?  I can't...I just cant! I am appalled!


It's the circle of life. Thats the same as someone who loves rats getting mad that us snake keepers feed them to snakes. Or little baby chickens. It's all the cycle of life. As long as its not going to waste and is used for food. 

Not quite sure how you can be angered by that yet ok to feed your BP mice or rats......or feeding retics rabbits and guinea pigs.....

And i personally dont do it. Was more just a statement as i dont breed snakes but i do know people who do sell off normals as food for other animals.

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## Sunnieskys

That's why I feed frozen thawed. If they are alive I can't do it. I cry like a baby. I dont know how you cAn see those cute little snoots pop out of the egg, alive, and then send them to their death. I just can't. With booples rats I never see them alive. I had rats as pets in high school. But these are not those rats and they are already gone and frozen when o get them. There is no attachment. There is a difference.

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## cchardwick

I've gassed snakes before, you can keep them in CO2 for a really long time and after you take them out they can revive themselves , it's amazing.  CO2 isn't perfect but if you read state laws about euthanization its the most legal and accepted method for all animals.  I used to breed canaries and when I started I froze all my deformed chicks, apparently that's not legal and supposedly a very painful way to go.  Another approved method is an explosive device like a gun or bomb LOL.  That's probably the quickest and most humane but may be the most dangerous for the user, I wouldn't recommend it!

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## Alter-Echo

> That's why I feed frozen thawed. If they are alive I can't do it. I cry like a baby. I dont know how you cAn see those cute little snoots pop out of the egg, alive, and then send them to their death. I just can't. With booples rats I never see them alive. I had rats as pets in high school. But these are not those rats and they are already gone and frozen when o get them. There is no attachment. There is a difference.


But at some point they are indeed alive.... and at some point someone has to kill them... so all in all a life is a life... is it right to judge wether the life of a snake is worth more than the life of a rat? Not everyone has such attachment, and in fact if they did it would probably be pretty hard to breed reptiles... or any animal for that matter. Life is only fair in the fact that is unfair to everything equally.

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## Sauzo

> That's why I feed frozen thawed. If they are alive I can't do it. I cry like a baby. I dont know how you cAn see those cute little snoots pop out of the egg, alive, and then send them to their death. I just can't. With booples rats I never see them alive. I had rats as pets in high school. But these are not those rats and they are already gone and frozen when o get them. There is no attachment. There is a difference.


I used to do cervical dislocation to mice and rats but i quit doing it as large rats have really tough spines and kind of thick necks so if you do it wrong, you either gimp them and dont kill them or you rip the tail skin off them. I felt bad doing either of those which is when i switched to FT. Plus i dont want to have to kill rabbits and guinea pigs. For me, i dont think of them as 'pets'. They are simply food. It's kind of how i can look at a cow and think 'mmmm that would make good steak' lol. i guess it's also how you were raised. I was raised around hunting and guns and stuff so i guess its a little different. I just dont like to see food go to waste. Like people who kill for the pleasure of it. You kill to eat or you kill to put something out of its misery, not for fun.




> I've gassed snakes before, you can keep them in CO2 for a really long time and after you take them out they can revive themselves , it's amazing.  CO2 isn't perfect but if you read state laws about euthanization its the most legal and accepted method for all animals.  I used to breed canaries and when I started I froze all my deformed chicks, apparently that's not legal and supposedly a very painful way to go.  Another approved method is an explosive device like a gun or bomb LOL.  That's probably the quickest and most humane but may be the most dangerous for the user, I wouldn't recommend it!


Never seen that but I'll take your word for it. Like i said above, i used to just do cervical dislocation. If done right, it is almost instant but if not done right, oh man....it hurts my feelings seeing the animal  :Sad: 

And yeah, i imagine a bomb would do it except you would have to scrape pieces of rat off the inside of a garbage can and feed your snake rat pate LOL.

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*Bogertophis* (09-11-2018),_Sonny1318_ (09-16-2018)

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## Alter-Echo

> I've gassed snakes before, you can keep them in CO2 for a really long time and after you take them out they can revive themselves , it's amazing.  CO2 isn't perfect but if you read state laws about euthanization its the most legal and accepted method for all animals.  I used to breed canaries and when I started I froze all my deformed chicks, apparently that's not legal and supposedly a very painful way to go.  Another approved method is an explosive device like a gun or bomb LOL.  That's probably the quickest and most humane but may be the most dangerous for the user, I wouldn't recommend it!


"No officer, these pipe bombs and grenades are for euthenizing rats, the shrapnel helps add much needed fiber"  :ROFL:

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## Sauzo

> "No officer, these pipe bombs and grenades are for euthenizing rats, the shrapnel helps add much needed fiber"


Imagine the cops expression if he saw a bag full of pipe bombs and a tank full of rats in the back seat lol.

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## zina10

I think the most pain-free and humane way to kill a snake is to destroy the brain. It has to be quick and complete destruction. 

CO2 actually is a very unreliable way, however, cutting off the head is not a total quick and pain free death either. The way a snakes body functions it can live for quite a long time without oxygen intake and the brain takes quite a while to die after the head is cut off. The movement of the jaw and eyes is not involuntary after decapitation. The eyes actually follow movement. 

When I had to "mercy" kill a wild snake, I found a really big rock and made sure that one hit caused sudden and sure death by crushing the head/brain.

Its gruesome for the person to do this, but one has to get over that, in order to be merciful.

I only had 3 planned clutches so far and there weren't (could not be) any normals. If I breed my other snakes there will also not be normals. They ARE hard to place. 
Its not that people don't like normals, I find many of them very beautiful. There simply isn't a market for them anymore, it would cost more to produce them then one would get back. And in the real world, you can't just breed for fun, or not everyone can.

I would not judge anyone selling them as feeders. The snakes that eat nothing then other snakes also need to eat to live. I would never deny an animal food, just because of my own feelings on it. The same goes for feeding live rodents. I prefer NOT to do it. Absolutely. But if I have an animal that needs it (like most hatchlings did to begin with) then that is what they will get. 

That said, I personally couldn't do it. But I wouldn't judge people that do. Someone has to be able to, in order for those snake eating snakes to not get starved.

If I had some normal babies, I would try very hard to find them homes with enthusiastic new keepers. I would offer a complete setup, caresheet and everything needed at cost (or below). But it is unrealistic to assume breeders can do this. And without the breeders that bred larger scale, we wouldn't have the availability of quality and healthy snakes we do have.

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## Sauzo

Too bad i didnt have large constrictors back when people used to give away boxes of free kittens in front of grocery stores!!! Free food every couple weeks!! J/K J/K. Dont think i could do that  :Smile:

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*Bogertophis* (09-11-2018),_Sonny1318_ (09-16-2018)

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## Godzilla78

> Sell them as food? Wtf! That is just not right! That makes me so angry on so many levels. We breed snakes because we love them and to sell them off so king cobras can eat them?  I can't...I just cant! I am appalled!


...They are food.  Just like rats are to them.  It is very normal, and not appalling, please.  Meat is food

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## cchardwick

I lived in South Korea for a year back in the late 80's and it was normal for people to eat Kegogi (dog meat).  Back then things were very different, that part of the world was very poor, people would urinate out in the streets, and kids would chase you down and beg for food.  But eating dogs was a very accepted part of the culture.  And you would never see big dogs out on the street, the only ones that were left were the little ones LOL.

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## Skyrivers

> I've gassed snakes before, you can keep them in CO2 for a really long time and after you take them out they can revive themselves , it's amazing.  CO2 isn't perfect but if you read state laws about euthanization its the most legal and accepted method for all animals.  I used to breed canaries and when I started I froze all my deformed chicks, apparently that's not legal and supposedly a very painful way to go.  Another approved method is an explosive device like a gun or bomb LOL.  That's probably the quickest and most humane but may be the most dangerous for the user, I wouldn't recommend it!


Must order some tannerite. Just kidding. I think would rehome any undesired snake over killing it. If was not healthy and had to kill it, not sure how I would at this point but would research more before possibly finding myself in that position.

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## MD_Pythons

> Sell them as food? Wtf! That is just not right! That makes me so angry on so many levels. We breed snakes because we love them and to sell them off so king cobras can eat them?  I can't...I just cant! I am appalled!


I'd rather them be sold as feeders than have them frozen and thrown out, at least they go to something more worthy than a trash can that way. King Cobras need to eat too.

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## cchardwick

Personally I'd never kill a snake just because it's a Normal.  The only one time I did kill a snake was because it was really sick, it lost both eyes and was totally blind and wouldn't eat, I'm guessing it was just too old and dying of old age.  I actually have another really old snake, it's hard to get it to eat and it looks like it has really bad arthritis.  I won't put her down until she starts falling apart though, poor snake.

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## tttaylorrr

> I'd rather them be sold as feeders than have them frozen and thrown out, at least they go to something more worthy than a trash can that way. King Cobras need to eat too.


my sentiments exactly.

i typed out a lot more but i'll leave it at this: if there's any hobby that understands the value of the life of a feeder animal, it's ours.

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_Alicia_ (04-04-2018),PitOnTheProwl (04-04-2018),_Team Slytherin_ (04-04-2018),_zina10_ (04-04-2018)

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## PitOnTheProwl

> Sell them as food? Wtf! That is just not right! That makes me so angry on so many levels. We breed snakes because we love them and to sell them off so king cobras can eat them?  I can't...I just cant! I am appalled!


Think about the hypocrisy here for a second......
What makes it any different than breeding rats for food for YOUR animals? How about breeding roaches to feed my tarantulas? Look at the meat market in your local grocery store, all animals bred for food.
Its a circle of life and the use of a death.

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## bcr229

> Sell them as food? Wtf! That is just not right! That makes me so angry on so many levels. We breed snakes because we love them and to sell them off so king cobras can eat them?  I can't...I just cant! I am appalled!


Actually a lot of feeder snakes are sold as f/t.  Usually they are given a last good-sized meal and then the snake's brain is quickly pithed to kill it instantly before it is frozen.

Decapitation is not a fast way to kill a snake and should not be used.

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## Skyrivers

I wonder what BP taste like?.......  :Surprised:  :Very Happy: 

I know... I know... 

Was to far. LOL.

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## Phillydubs

This is a rough read...

circle of life i get and respect it and partake onviously. 

Just hard to swallow when we all have them but because they are normal or not a crazy morph they are second class citizens. 

As as others have said if they are used to feed and a purpose that to me is just part of all of us. But to be bagged and tossed seems like there are better alternatives.

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*Bogertophis* (09-11-2018),Nz2500 (09-15-2018)

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## Godzilla78

> This is a rough read...
> 
> circle of life i get and respect it and partake onviously. 
> 
> Just hard to swallow when we all have them but because they are normal or not a crazy morph they are second class citizens. 
> 
> As as others have said if they are used to feed and a purpose that to me is just part of all of us. But to be bagged and tossed seems like there are better alternatives.


it is just because the markrt is flooded. These things can live 30 years and many, many people who buy a ball python decide its not for them after a year and try to get rid of it on craigslist. There are just so many normals that they become almost unwanted and very difficult to sell, so as a breeder sometimes it is hard to decide what to do to offload them quickly. its just the way it ends up being

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*Bogertophis* (09-11-2018)

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## zina10

To the ones that say its better to sell them super cheap or give them away, that is by far not a guarantee of a better live then a quick death and being fed off. 

Again, I couldn't let my babies go as feeders or feed them off myself.

But, when the market is over flooded and you DO need feeder snakes, what is the logical thing to do? We also need feeder frogs and lizards, not to even mention the rodents. There are many people that adore their frogs and lizards. 

In this hobby you have to be realistic. You decided to bring that animal to your house, you are responsible for it, it only has YOU to look after its needs. If it eats frogs or needs them for scenting until it can be converted, well, you better get over yourself and do whatever is needed. If it needs to eat other snakes, well, that is what you have to do. You can always try F/T first, this way someone else had to do the "deed". But sometimes you have to feed live. If nothing more, until you can begin the process to switch them over. 

Some people like Kingsnakes. Some people own venomous snakes that feed on other snakes. What about the rare and gorgeous Eastern Indigo. Sure, some can be switched to rodents, but some cannot. Or not right away. 

I much rather an animal went to good use such as that, then in the trash or neglected, dying a slow death of starvation and neglect. Because many will end up just that way. Sure, more expensive morphs and animals also end up neglected. But fact remains, the cheaper animals are often viewed as "throw away" pets. So selling and giving away those cheap normals does in no way guarantee them a good life. There are worse things then a quick death. 

So again, I would try my best to find a good home. I would make sure to give setup instructions (or even sell a set, animal and setup, at cost) and be picky. But it is completely unrealistic to expect bigger breeders to do just that. They may as well pack up. It is also unfair to say that those bigger breeders should simply not exist if they cannot be bothered to find good homes and be extremely picky for each and every normal they produce. We simply wouldn't have a lot of breeders left. Without them we would still be having mostly sickly imports to choose from, with all the problems alongside.

Many normals are more beautiful then some morphs, in my opinion. Although beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Its not that they are viewed as non worthy. There are simply to many of them still, they are sold cheap and in some cases can't even be given away. That is the downside of the market explosion.

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## Skyrivers

> To the ones that say its better to sell them super cheap or give them away, that is by far not a guarantee of a better live then a quick death and being fed off. 
> 
> Again, I couldn't let my babies go as feeders or feed them off myself.
> 
> But, when the market is over flooded and you DO need feeder snakes, what is the logical thing to do? We also need feeder frogs and lizards, not to even mention the rodents. There are many people that adore their frogs and lizards. 
> 
> In this hobby you have to be realistic. You decided to bring that animal to your house, you are responsible for it, it only has YOU to look after its needs. If it eats frogs or needs them for scenting until it can be converted, well, you better get over yourself and do whatever is needed. If it needs to eat other snakes, well, that is what you have to do. You can always try F/T first, this way someone else had to do the "deed". But sometimes you have to feed live. If nothing more, until you can begin the process to switch them over. 
> 
> Some people like Kingsnakes. Some people own venomous snakes that feed on other snakes. What about the rare and gorgeous Eastern Indigo. Sure, some can be switched to rodents, but some cannot. Or not right away. 
> ...


I had a reticulated python breeder tell me that he wished he could get the shelters dogs and cats that were going to be put down and let him kill them in a way that is humane and safe for his snakes to eat. I say why not? They are going to die anyway. Would be practical and efficient use of a doomed animal. Not sure I could do it myself though but you do have some good points.

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## zina10

> I had a reticulated python breeder tell me that he wished he could get the shelters dogs and cats that were going to be put down and let him kill them in a way that is humane and safe for his snakes to eat. I say why not? They are going to die anyway. Would be practical and efficient use of a doomed animal. Not sure I could do it myself though but you do have some good points.


Honestly, I wouldn't want a former pet such as a dog or cat as food for my snakes. Morals aside, you never know just how many medications those animals have been on in their life time. Some of those medications are still in their system and makes them unsafe for consumption, even if they weren't chemically put down.

Its the same with horses. I would NEVER eat horse meat unless it was from a horse that was raised for slaughter. Its not just that I love horses, but I know what goes into a horse on regular basis. Horse people are crazy when it comes to going above and beyond to make their animal comfortable. There are many drugs and pesticides given regularly to any horse. Not to mention the many meds and shots they are on, for various problems and issues. 

Some of those do not break down quickly. And trust me, you don't want those in your system..

While I agree it would be better use then thrown in the trash, that probably would be a slippery slope. Many people would not believe those animals were killed humanely. There would be an uproar, because dogs and cats are viewed as highly intelligent and affectionate companion animals, at least in our country. As is, the people collecting free kittens and puppies to feed them to their snake, are throwing a bad light on the rest of us reptile keepers. Esp. when they go around promising to give those animals good loving homes.

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_AbsoluteApril_ (04-04-2018),*Bogertophis* (09-11-2018),_distaff_ (11-10-2018)

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## Reinz

> I had a reticulated python breeder tell me that he wished he could get the shelters dogs and cats that were going to be put down and let him kill them in a way that is humane and safe for his snakes to eat. I say why not? They are going to die anyway. Would be practical and efficient use of a doomed animal. Not sure I could do it myself though but you do have some good points.


Now that would be disastrous for our hobby. It would spread like wildfire through social media.

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## Skyrivers

> Now that would be disastrous for our hobby. It would spread like wildfire through social media.


I agree but is it unethical compared to throwing them away?

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## Alter-Echo

> Now that would be disastrous for our hobby. It would spread like wildfire through social media.


It's happened a few times, thankfully other than pissing off a lot of people not much became of it, but the way the current social climate is, it I wouldn't want it to happen to many more times.

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## Reinz

(oops, forgot to add Skyrivers post #31. Don’t know how to add after the fact)

Try convincing millions of animal lovers that. 

‘Many people tend to get very emotional about animals with fur yet have a “could care less” attitude toward reptiles. Now combine those two attitudes to reptiles eating fur babies and all common sense is thrown out the window.

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*Bogertophis* (09-11-2018)

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## AbsoluteApril

Just going to share some links so this thread doesn't turn into specifically about euthanasia but I thought it should be brought up:




> Actually it's not humane to freeze any animal to death, if an animal rights group catches you they can confiscate all your animals, I've seen articles about it.  If you want to euthanize a snake it's best to use CO2 until you knock them out, then decapitate them (CO2 won't kill them, just put them to sleep).


debatable.
Another thread from 2016 with the same topic: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ormal-Spinoff)

Lots to read on this subject if people want to learn more:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...cienceDaily%29

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Doc...euthanasia.pdf

http://bio.biologists.org/content/ea.../18/bio.012179


https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/...7/1/53/2641243


https://www.awrc.org.au/uploads/5/8/...3/simpson2.pdf


https://staff.unimelb.edu.au/__data/...iles-FINAL.pdf

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_zina10_ (04-04-2018)

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## Skyrivers

> (oops, forgot to add Skyrivers post #31. Dont know how to add after the fact)
> 
> Try convincing millions of animal lovers that. 
> 
> Many people tend to get very emotional about animals with fur yet have a could care less attitude toward reptiles. Now combine those two attitudes to reptiles eating fur babies and all common sense is thrown out the window.


I agree. Guess we need to leave cannibalism off the list?

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## bcr229

> Its the same with horses. I would NEVER eat horse meat unless it was from a horse that was raised for slaughter. Its not just that I love horses, but I know what goes into a horse on regular basis. Horse people are crazy when it comes to going above and beyond to make their animal comfortable. There are many drugs and pesticides given regularly to any horse. Not to mention the many meds and shots they are on, for various problems and issues.


Yep.  Horse meat is excellent but you do not want meat from a show horse, racehorse, etc. because they are pumped to the gills with wormers and medications to keep them going.

Easter was just a few days ago.  More than a few bunnies bought for the holiday as pets are going to end up snake food after the kids lose interest.

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_MD_Pythons_ (04-04-2018),PitOnTheProwl (04-04-2018),_Team Slytherin_ (04-04-2018),_zina10_ (04-04-2018)

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## Spiritserpents

> I actually have another really old snake, it's hard to get it to eat and it looks like it has really bad arthritis.  I won't put her down until she starts falling apart though, poor snake.


 As a vet tech,  let me say that your snake is likely already falling apart.  If it is not wanting to eat and appears to have arthritis,  your snake is probably sick and in pain and it's might kinder to euthanise now than let it fail on is own.

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_AbsoluteApril_ (04-05-2018),*bcr229* (04-04-2018)

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## Pengil

In my opinion, I would rather unwanted snakes be fed to other snakes as opposed to being neglected or abused. Some snakes are just naturally built to eat other snakes, and so long as the food snakes are treated humanely and euthed humanely if they're not being fed live, I see no problem with it.

If I ever ended up breeding snakes and ended up with normals though, I would probably end up keeping them forever unless I could find them good homes, simply due to personal attachment to them. I would be a terrible farmer or feeder breeder for the same reason.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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_zina10_ (04-04-2018)

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## artgecko

This is a very interesting topic to me.  In my research for breeding (my plans are to start with a couple clutches in about 2-3 years), I have read many accounts of people keeping snake-eating snakes or other reptiles (tegu / monitors) to dispose of their still borns, dud eggs, or severely deformed hatchlings. I actually began looking into this as I would like a humane way to dispose of animals that needed to be euthanized, without having to crush their skull.  I had read that some people keep the same animals and also feed normal hatchlings to them as well. 

Honestly, I'd feel better about giving a snake a humane death with a good use / purpose (feeding them off) then selling to a re-seller wholesale...  That said, I'm assuming that if you are breeding in enough quantity to be able to wholesale to someone, then you have high expenses to cover and any amount of money you could get would help, so I won't judge lol.  

Personally, I think my game plan is to breed so that I do not produce any normals (recessive x recessive).  

I think normals are still great animals, but as others have noted, the market is just so crowded and it is hard to convince someone to buy a normal when they can have a "prettier" morph easily.

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## OhhWatALoser

Can someone tell me what breeders cull any perfectly healthy snake. I see it brought up all the time but never have actually heard of anyone admit doing this, yet it seems to be common knowledge "breeders" do this all the time. If your small time like me, normals go fast at shows, few meals in em and an easy 20 bucks. Any large breeder I've talked to,  wholesales them out to stores or anyone looking for big quantities. Again easy money.  It seems illogical to cull a healthy animal even purely thinking of the money.

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Nz2500 (09-15-2018)

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## Alter-Echo

> Can someone tell me what breeders cull any perfectly healthy snake. I see it brought up all the time but never have actually heard of anyone admit doing this, yet it seems to be common knowledge "breeders" do this all the time. If your small time like me, normals go fast at shows, few meals in em and an easy 20 bucks. Any large breeder I've talked to,  wholesales them out to stores or anyone looking for big quantities. Again easy money.  It seems illogical to cull a healthy animal even purely thinking of the money.


I suspect that this is actually more of a small breeder thing, as they probably don't even make enough for wholesale.

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## artgecko

> Can someone tell me what breeders cull any perfectly healthy snake. I see it brought up all the time but never have actually heard of anyone admit doing this, yet it seems to be common knowledge "breeders" do this all the time. If your small time like me, normals go fast at shows, few meals in em and an easy 20 bucks. Any large breeder I've talked to,  wholesales them out to stores or anyone looking for big quantities. Again easy money.  It seems illogical to cull a healthy animal even purely thinking of the money.


The people that told me they fed them off (to tegu, other snakes, etc.) were small time breeders on FB groups.  I can't verify that info, but I'm suspecting that you are right about the bigger breeders.  I think some people just don't want to put the effort into selling them (maybe they don't go to shows and only do local sales?) and if they have too few to wholesale, just don't know what to do with them, so feed them off.

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## Jnksnakes

I personally don't have any snakes that will eat other snakes, YET, but I don't see a problem with it. it's the way life goes. My wife gets mad because I see people on Craiglist or facebook giving away bunnies they no longer want, and I tell them, if No one else wants to give them a home, I'll make use of them. I don't do cats\dogs etc, but bunnies, chickens, quail, etc I have no problem with. Again, I don't have snake eaters, but my rats get too big or too many for their growout tubs, I simply put them on carpet and whack the back of the skull with a hammer. I tried holding the neck down and pulling the tail up to break the necks, But I don't have anything good to hold the necks down with. For rabbits and bunnies I simply put a piece of wood across their neck and stand on it with both feet. Grab the legs, pull straight up and the neck cracks. No pain, instant death.

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## Ax01

> I personally don't have any snakes that will eat other snakes, YET, but I don't see a problem with it. it's the way life goes. My wife gets mad because I see people on Craiglist or facebook giving away bunnies they no longer want, and I tell them, if No one else wants to give them a home, I'll make use of them. I don't do cats\dogs etc, but bunnies, chickens, quail, etc I have no problem with. Again, I don't have snake eaters, but *my rats get too big or too many for their growout tubs, I simply put them on carpet and whack the back of the skull with a hammer.* I tried holding the neck down and pulling the tail up to break the necks, But I don't have anything good to hold the necks down with. For rabbits and bunnies I simply put a piece of wood across their neck and stand on it with both feet. Grab the legs, pull straight up and the neck cracks. No pain, instant death.


how long do they twitch or do they die immediately? do they bleed? i hope it's quick b/c i can't imagine what your carpet looks like. there are youtube vids and forumers here that can teach u how to correctly perform cervical dislocation. even a dummy like me had to do a few when i bought too many and my live feeders were in shed.

get a wood dish rack and fold it flat (or something with alot of crossbars):


put a screwdiver across the back of the neck, press down firmly, get a good grip near the base of the tail and pull very, very hard and u have humanely euthanized a feeder. there are other clean methods as well like C02. just ask around and we can help u improve your feeding/feeder methods.

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_MissterDog_ (09-15-2018)

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## Nz2500

Wait... is this seriously a thread talking about killing infant  normal snakes because they do not have "desired" genetics?
I honestly cant believe that to be the case, but it seems to be... 

I know some "king" snakes can have snake feeders ,but often times the owners i know feed them only the weak and malformed. NOT perfectly healthy babies. I also understand the Money and Profit side of snake breeding, but as having a BEAUTIFUL Normal as a my first introduction to the hobby. I now kinda feel sick to my stomach discovering this apparent practice for the first time....

Because for me, Snakes are Just as important of Pets to me as Dogs and Cats. And i do love all animals, but to me they seem alittle LESS "disposable"(?) as a Goldfish or a mass bred Rat feeder is.

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_55fingers_ (09-15-2018)

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## Nz2500

And also... Are some of you openly Admiting to commiting the act of Killing Healthy Normal Babies as your regular breeding practice? And thus actively treating those Normals as lesser, 2nd class animal feeders?

If so, i have lost all respect for you... I will never look at those from that side of the hobby the same way again.
And dont kid yourself by calling it a Mercy Kill, Because its not. Its just a convenient way to dispose of a Animal that you do not want!

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_55fingers_ (09-15-2018)

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## bcr229

> Because for me, Snakes are Just as important of Pets to me as Dogs and Cats. And i do love all animals, but to me they seem alittle LESS "disposable"(?) as a Goldfish or a mass bred Rat feeder is.


Plenty of people who breed rodents as pets get just as upset when people talk about their snakes eating them.

I get rabbits from two sources.  The first breeds and is approved to butcher/process rabbit for human consumption, and it's excellent meat.  The other breeds show rabbits and prefers that the culls from her breeding program become snake food instead of pets, as a lot of people get pet rabbits without realizing that they need special care, a specialized vet, and the animal may not be used to being handled regularly so it will nip - much like a baby snake.  OTOH if the snake is sold as a f/t feeder you know it had a good life, it was kept correctly, and you euthanized it humanely before the carcass was frozen and sold, no different than the producers of f/t rats or rabbits.

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_AbsoluteApril_ (09-16-2018),PitOnTheProwl (09-16-2018),_Ronniex2_ (09-25-2018)

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## 55fingers

Personally, I think that if you aren't sure you could sell or rehome the normals in your clutch, you shouldn't breed. It's not fair on the snakes. They don't decide what genetics they have.

White tiger breeders kill the cubs that aren't born with a white coat. Some dog breeders do the same type of thing.  If you don't find that moral, I don't understand why it's okay to kill a snake for the same reasons. 

But hey, I'm not a breeder, so you do you I suppose.

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Nz2500 (09-15-2018)

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## Nz2500

> Personally, I think that if you aren't sure you could sell or rehome the normals in your clutch, you shouldn't breed. It's not fair on the snakes. They don't decide what genetics they have.


55fingers, My sentiments Exactly!
Its Just like that with breeding Puppies or Kittens (which i have experience with). Often times there may be one or more extra Young Animals that you must work extra hard to find homes for. 
But you do it because you care for the animals. 
And if you dont have the ability to care for the animals then DONT BREED!! Otherwise you are just as bad as or worse then the Giant Wholesale Breeders you all Claim to hate!

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_55fingers_ (09-16-2018)

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## Jnksnakes

I have perfected this method with Rabbits, but haven't had much luck with rats. The hammer to the skull doesn't require much force and instantly kills them too, there's no pain. Yeah the carpet is nasty because of the blood. I didn't know a screwdriver would work to hold them down, I will try that if I ever have to do it again. Either way I make sure they aren't in pain, but this way would definitely be much cleaner.

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## Nz2500

#NormalAreBeautiful

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*Bogertophis* (09-25-2018),_distaff_ (10-31-2018),_Ronniex2_ (09-25-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> #NormalAreBeautiful


Not only that, they've already passed the test with natural selection...hate to say it, but there's a reason you rarely see morphs in the wild, much less snakes with 
head wobbles...

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Nz2500 (09-25-2018)

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## 101Animallover101

> Wha?? CO2 sure will kill them if you leave them in there long enough just like any other animal that breathes air. How do you think CO2 chambers are made for rats. You use a paintball gun cartridge in a tub with a screw type valve. And i dont know if i agree that even gas chambers are that humane either. I mean they darn well know they cant breath and i would imagine they are stressing. It's like if you were put in a CO2 chamber lol. I mean rats arent humans but anything will know if it is losing the ability to breath.
> 
> Oh or some make a MacGuyver chamber with dry ice in a small container with holes inside a larger tub with the rats in it.




It will kill them but... snakes have a very low oxygen requirement so they will survive for a very long time also freezing them extremely inhumane they can feel the ice crystallize on their tissue. beheading also not an option their brain still functions for a while and they can feel the pain. the best way to do it is to go to the vet. the reasons why you want to kill normals is sooo stupid i can understand if they are sick or injured but not a fancy morph? you should not be in the buisness for money you should be in it for passion!

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*Bogertophis* (11-10-2018),Nz2500 (11-10-2018)

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## Nz2500

101Animallover101 i 100% agree with you. 
If you are a wannabe breeder. Then you should ALWAYS strive to do it for the Passion of it and not for financial gain! 

(Because Dude, if your in it for the money alone then you are in the wrong business. Not everyone can be Brian Barcyzk) 

And besides, I thought the Puppy Mill mentality of killing/mistreating healthy snakes because they cant gain you a net profit is the main reason we are supposed to like small breeders and hate wholesale stores like Petsmart and Petco.

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## distaff

I've worked at animal shelters.  They get the cheapest food available.  
The feral kittens usually come in diseased, and then it spreads to the other kittens in the cat room.  
You don't want to feed those unfortunate critters to your retic!

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*Bogertophis* (11-10-2018)

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## Danger noodles

I couldnt kill a perfect baby snake, but if its not wasted and used for food I cant say Id be mad at all. But killing any animal for pure sports isnt cool with me.

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dr del (11-13-2018),_zina10_ (11-12-2018)

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## zina10

I see some very unfair presumptions in here. 

I'm a HUGE animal lover. But I've also seen the effects of when animal lovers pass laws they "think" should benefit the animals, only for it to backfire terribly, and the ones suffering are the animals. 

So now I always try to think everything through very thoroughly. From all angles. 

Yes, puppy mills are the bottom of all evilness when it comes to animal breeding. However, they survive. Why ? Because they save on housing, vet care, food, time and energy. Basically, they spend as little as they can get away with (and the animal pays) while churning out great numbers of animals. 

Yet oftentimes I see great breeders thrown in with the likes of the puppy mills (whether puppies, reptiles, etc). Why? Because they make money. Because they produce a good number of animals. They do make financial gain. But guess what. If they didn't, you most likely wouldn't have your animals. Or if you did, you would have them from the dreaded "mills". 

If we only had the "for passion alone" breeders (which I actually am, and I feel lucky to be able to do so) there wouldn't be enough quality, healthy and beautiful animals to go around. That is just basic math. If you want a animal from a good breeder, that takes care of their animals, makes health a priority, does it RIGHT, you are not the only one. Most people would prefer that, at least the ones that know the difference and didn't already make a pity purchase at the big box stores.

But if those good breeders only bred for passion and fun, most couldn't afford to do that in any kind of larger number. They simply couldn't afford to do it. Certainly couldn't afford to do it RIGHT. 

I see no problem with the GOOD larger scale breeders making a profit. It allows them to keep doing what they are doing and that is great. I'm pretty sure most breeders don't go around killing Normals because they think those animals are worthless ugly ole things. 
However, they are selling for far less then morphs. That is just the way it is. Would you or anyone pay more for a normal then a morph? Even if it is gorgeous? Probably not. 

So if there are people that breed or keep snake-eating species and want to buy the lowest priced snakes as feeders, what are they supposed to buy ? There are only so many "kinked or sickly" snakes to go around. As a matter of fact, if I had reptiles that needed to feed on snakes, you bet I wouldn't get sickly or recently passed away snakes to feed them with. Unless that was one of MY hatchlings that I know did not carry some disease. I would probably also not spend $50 or more per feeder snake, when there are $10 ones to be had. And guess what, those usually won't be the morphs.

So it has very little to do with hating on Normals or going around killing snakes because they are Normals. Its just economics. It is just feeding snakes what they need to eat. Would you withhold food from your snake just because someone else had some moral objection to you feeding a live rat weanling or whatever your snake requires to eat? 

All that said, I have not killed any snakes. I have not fed off any snakes. I have not sold any snakes to be fed off. (or given away). I couldn't do it. But I won't hate on the people that do sell them to that fate. Look at how many snakes (Normals or morphs) are sold as pets and yet end up FAR WORSE then a quick death from being fed off. Even if someone just sells 20 hatchlings per year and tries to pick good homes, can you guarantee those animals will truly have good homes for the entirety of their lives ? 

So what to do? Just not breed? Not breed in numbers? Not breed for profit? 
Yup, for someone that has issues with worrying where there babies might end up, it would be best not to produce any. Nothing wrong with that at all. 

But again, then we wouldn't have the number of good quality and healthy Normals and morphs that we have nowadays. We'd still be struggling with sickly and starving Imports or questionable animals from the "mills". 

Long story short, if larger breeder have Normals for sale, obviously at a cheaper price then morphs, and they sell to someone that needs them for their King Cobra, Eastern Indigo or whatever, I won't judge them. 
I see far worse in our hobby all the time, and not just when it comes to breeding and selling.

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_AbsoluteApril_ (11-13-2018),_asplundii_ (11-13-2018),*bcr229* (11-12-2018),_Dianne_ (11-13-2018),ectothermichermit (01-07-2019),_Lord Sorril_ (11-12-2018),_MissterDog_ (11-12-2018),_Pengil_ (11-12-2018),PitOnTheProwl (11-12-2018),_pretends2bnormal_ (11-12-2018),Stewart_Reptiles (11-13-2018),Timelugia (11-12-2018)

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## the_rotten1

Whoops, posted on the wrong thread. Please ignore.

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## the_rotten1

Wow, how did that happen twice? My computer is being weird tonight.

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## platinumbp

> Kingsnake breeders. Dont know what they do.
> I had a couple hatchlings that were kinked bad, my Mexican Blacks made quick work in them. Its hard for me to watch but I have seen people just throw their normal in the freezer then trash them. I cant see wasting a life......


Putting a snake in the freezer is a slow torturous death for them. They are cold blooded and don't go into an elegant unconscious sleep before dying like we would. Their cells die slowly and painfully. My herp vet told us this. Please don't ever do this.

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*bcr229* (11-13-2018)

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## AbsoluteApril

If freezing is used as euthanasia the reptile MUST be cooled first, not put directly into the freezer. I was going to mention this earlier but didn't want to derail the thread as humane euthanasia tactics would be a good separate thread and I do believe has been discussed on this site before.
http://bio.biologists.org/content/ea.../18/bio.012179
It is not the *best* way but it is a way. Study was done in Australia for euthanasia of invasive cane toads.

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