# Site General > Pet Related Laws & Legislation >  Attention breeders in Florida...

## Mike Cavanaugh

This could really go in this section of forums or in the law section....  I just wanted to make sure that Florida breeders look at this and see how it can affect them. So I figured this was the best spot for that.

I had a visitor at my HOUSE yesterday morning.  It was the local Florida Wildlife Commission investigator!  He introduced himself, showed his badge and then asked to see my Florida license for selling wildlife in Florida.   Safe to say my heart just about stopped...  Especially when I saw his handcuffs on his belt!

I knew I had to have that license if I had snakes for sale at a pet shop or at a reptile show...  But I thought private sales were a gray area that didn't really require the license.   I WAS WRONG!!!!!

I immediately invited him into my home and showed him my entire collection.  I showed him my racks, my hatchling racks, my incubator (filled with Bp eggs).  I did this just to show him that I didn't have any restricted species.  

I answered all of his questions honestly and apologized for not taking the time I should have to have a better understanding of the laws in regard to the private sales of ball pythons.

I'm not sure how exactly he was able to find out who I was or what I did or where I live.  None of that matters though... I will never sell a snake without the proper licenses.  

He came to fine me heavily.  By Fl law he could have even put me in jail for up to 6 months! I was very lucky and he let me go with a serious warning.  He was thankful for my cooperation in offering to show him everything I have.  He also saw that I really didn't realize how bad what I was doing was! 

Lessons learned:

you can not sell a ball python in Florida (even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless you have the required license.

You can not buy a ball python in Florida (not even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless the seller has the required license!

You better keep records.  The Florida Wildlife Commission investigator can request to see all records showing where you acquired your snakes from to ensure you did not purchase any of them illegally (like buying from a private breeder without a valid license.)

Hope that everyone who needs to see this post sees it.

Mike cavanaugh

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_angllady2_ (07-17-2011),_Jyson_ (07-17-2011),_llovelace_ (07-17-2011),_purplemuffin_ (07-17-2011),_Quiet Tempest_ (07-17-2011),snakesRkewl (07-17-2011)

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## Mike Cavanaugh

This could really go in this section of forums or in the law section....  I just wanted to make sure that Florida breeders look at this and see how it can affect them. So I figured this was the best spot for that.

I had a visitor at my HOUSE yesterday morning.  It was the local Florida Wildlife Commission investigator!  He introduced himself, showed his badge and then asked to see my Florida license for selling wildlife in Florida.   Safe to say my heart just about stopped...  Especially when I saw his handcuffs on his belt!

I knew I had to have that license if I had snakes for sale at a pet shop or at a reptile show...  But I thought private sales were a gray area that didn't really require the license.   I WAS WRONG!!!!!

I immediately invited him into my home and showed him my entire collection.  I showed him my racks, my hatchling racks, my incubator (filled with Bp eggs).  I did this just to show him that I didn't have any restricted species.  

I answered all of his questions honestly and apologized for not taking the time I should have to have a better understanding of the laws in regard to the private sales of ball pythons.

I'm not sure how exactly he was able to find out who I was or what I did or where I live.  None of that matters though... I will never sell a snake without the proper licenses.  

He came to fine me heavily.  By Fl law he could have even put me in jail for up to 6 months! I was very lucky and he let me go with a serious warning.  He was thankful for my cooperation in offering to show him everything I have.  He also saw that I really didn't realize how bad what I was doing was! 

Lessons learned:

you can not sell a ball python in Florida (even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless you have the required license.

You can not buy a ball python in Florida (not even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless the seller has the required license!

You better keep records.  The Florida Wildlife Commission investigator can request to see all records showing where you acquired your snakes from to ensure you did not purchase any of them illegally (like buying from a private breeder without a valid license.)

Hope that everyone who needs to see this post sees it.

Mike cavanaugh

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_Anna.Sitarski_ (07-17-2011),_Brian Fobian_ (07-18-2011),_FINGAZZ_ (07-17-2011),_Melody_ (07-18-2011),Smitty524 (07-18-2011),SoFarAway (07-19-2011),The Bears (07-17-2011)

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## Homegrownscales

Holy crap. Is all I've got to say 


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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## Jyson

I thought that was a gray area too. SUCKS! What's the name of the permit? Can you apply online?

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## Aes_Sidhe

Yes you can apply on line... is i believe for selling Balls You need category III license

here is a link : http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/captive-wildlife/

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_Jyson_ (07-17-2011)

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## llovelace

I'll be sending mine in this week  :Surprised: , FWC trolls craigslist.

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## Highline Reptiles South

Glad to see the Florida still hard at work enforcing the laws after doing such a fine job with the Casey Anthony trial...

Speaking one Cavanaugh to another  :Wink:

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## J.Vandegrift

I just found out about this recently as well. I think I am good though. I already have a Class III for exhibit and sale for some of my ducks. I think I just have to add ball pythons to the species list when the time to renew comes. It's only $50 a year so it's not a big deal. The permit is very easy to get.

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## GoFride

Yes, It's getting even weirder here in Florida! I went to the Tampa show yesterday to pick up feeders. I hadn't seen my feeder guy in a while, and was very surprised to find out he had sold off most of his snakes, would not be breeding/selling any more reptiles, and was in the process of cutting way back on his feeders (maybe getting out completely). He said he's now required to document the name and number of every buyer. That may be how you were found. Have you purchased an animal at a show recently?

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## GoFride

So, for all you Florida herp owners - before you even think of breeding your animals, think - what will you do with the hatchlings? If you intend to keep every single one, that's okay. If you plan to enter into ANY transaction, get a Class III license first. Document the details of each transaction. If you don't want to do this, don't breed to sell or trade.

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## jjhall8

What a bunch of BS, just another way for them to get money.

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## Aes_Sidhe

> What a bunch of BS, just another way for them to get money.


This is for years now.. they just step on enforcing that law more and more in recent years... and honestly this is not only Florida situation... 
I'll bet every state have law regulating sales of wildlife.. and even if local law enforcement not knock to your door yet... that doesn't mean that You dont breaking the law selling Your snakes to a friend... without proper license...

And @ Mike... From what i heard.. CL Fauna and Kingsnake are more and more often monitored by Wildlife Officers ... If you have Facebook with You "reptile business" they can find You too... and this is probably how they found you.

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## Quiet Tempest

$50 isn't so bad. If you want to breed and sell colubrids here in TN you have to fork over $250.  :Mad:

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## GoFride

From the website;
E. Class III Wildlife
A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or sale of Class III wildlife.  Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

There is no formal list of Class III species.  You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species.  Florida residents 16 years of age and older may apply for permit to possess, exhibit or sell Class III wildlife

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## GoFride

> From the website;
> E. Class III Wildlife
> A permit is required for personal possession,


I think I'll get a class III permit, just to protect myself, even though mine are all pets (never been bred).  :Sad:

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## wolfy-hound

You can't apply online for the permit. You can print the document and mail it in(as far as my search on there showed).

Thanks for posting this, as I have had my permit for three years, but let it lapse last year because I didn't have anything to sell(lousy egg year). I'll have to reapply for mine.

Make sure you have your "escape plan" written up and kept handy in case they ask to see it.

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-17-2011)

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## Aes_Sidhe

> You can't apply online for the permit. You can print the document and mail it in(as far as my search on there showed).
> 
> Thanks for posting this, as I have had my permit for three years, but let it lapse last year because I didn't have anything to sell(lousy egg year). I'll have to reapply for mine.
> 
> Make sure you have your "escape plan" written up and kept handy in case they ask to see it.


Uhh You right my bad.. there is only links for regulations not on-line application in link I provided...

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## dr del

Mike,

I copied your post into the legislation forum as well to try and help spread the word.


dr del

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> What a bunch of BS, just another way for them to get money.


It could be a lot worse.  Honestly I don't see a problem with requiring the license...  I wish the law had been a little clearer..  It would have been great for it to say more directly something along the lines of "you can't sell a snake in Florida without this license, even privately"  The clearer the law is stated, the less grey area... the easier it is to follow. 

Keeping the records though is a different story.  That is difficult to do with a large collection.  Don't get me wrong, I am going to do it.  But it is going to be a pain.

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## RichsBallPythons

> This is for years now.. they just step on enforcing that law more and more in recent years... and honestly this is not only Florida situation... 
> I'll bet every state have law regulating sales of wildlife.. and even if local law enforcement not knock to your door yet... that doesn't mean that You dont breaking the law selling Your snakes to a friend... without proper license...
> 
> And @ Mike... From what i heard.. CL Fauna and Kingsnake are more and more often monitored by Wildlife Officers ... If you have Facebook with You "reptile business" they can find You too... and this is probably how they found you.


 Not every state required a licenses to sell. Some only require tax id if you plan to sell in your state at shows and what not. Other wise your either a business or hobby that pays taxes each year.



Whats FL law on people shipping to that state, does the person still require a licenses to acquire out of state snakes.

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## Aes_Sidhe

> Not every state required a licenses to sell. Some only require tax id if you plan to sell in your state at shows and what not. Other wise your either a business or hobby that pays taxes each year.
> 
> 
> 
> Whats FL law on people shipping to that state, does the person still require a licenses to acquire out of state snakes.


Uhh I moved from Florida 2 years ago .. but from what I remember You for sure need Florida Category III license when you going to Florida Show and want to sell Your snakes there... 
I dont know what law applies when you ship snake from out of state to Florida customer...

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## dirdad

Thank you so much for this information! *note to self get proper license before selling ball pythons* knowing my luck I wont get a warning  :Wag of the finger:

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The Bears (07-17-2011)

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## m00kfu

> You can not buy a ball python in Florida (not even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless the seller has the required license!


Just out of curiosity, what does that mean for you as far as buying snakes from out of state?

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## FINGAZZ

what is the license is it.do you know what it cost?

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## llovelace

> what is the license is it.do you know what it cost?


Class III licensing $50/yr

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## FINGAZZ

> Class III licensing $50/yr


thanks now how do i go about geting one.im on the fwc site but im lost.lol

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## pinkeye714

Yeah. in most states you need a license to breed/sell any animal. I was in cali and it is the same deal, just they do not crack down as much since there is sooo many people. 

thanks~

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## Smitty524

Thanks for the heads up...I just got a warning yesterday by FWC for fishing in a pond without a license.

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## wolfy-hound

Be aware that if you are applying for the Class III wildlife license to sell, you must also print out and fill out the "disaster plan" and send in just the first page, keeping all the other 7 pages for you at home. Also, send the application to the PO Box listed on top, NOT to the long address that the people in the office give you... and make out the check to FWC(which they don't mention).

Called Tallahassee four times just to understand the crazy paperwork!

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dr del (07-18-2011),_FINGAZZ_ (07-18-2011),_Jyson_ (07-21-2011),_pinkeye714_ (07-18-2011),SoFarAway (07-19-2011)

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## tikigator

> Yes you can apply on line... is i believe for selling Balls You need category III license
> 
> here is a link : http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/captive-wildlife/



But it says this:

"Note:  To review Florida Statutes (FS) or rules in the Florida Administrative Code (FAC) please go to https://www.flrules.org

The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies.  Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)"

Ball Pythons are nonvenomous, unprotected, they are not listed under species of concern or conditional reptiles.....? :Confused: 

This is news to me and I usually follow the laws very carefully.  I know a TON of people who buy and sell BPs on craigslist and I have never heard of a problem.  Maybe I will contact them and get clarification on the issue.

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## wolfy-hound

You do NOT need a license to own... you DO need a license to SELL ball pythons in Florida.

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## Jyson

I am so confused about this class 3 permit. For one there are two applications: no-cost personal pet, and one for public sales. Do I need to apply for both or does the second one cover personal sales?




> But it says this:
> 
> "Note:  To review Florida Statutes (FS) or rules in the Florida Administrative Code (FAC) please go to https://www.flrules.org
> 
> The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies.  Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:
> 
> a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)"
> 
> Ball Pythons are nonvenomous, unprotected, they are not listed under species of concern or conditional reptiles.....?
> ...


Please do because this is making no sense to me.

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## Thesnakepitt

does the BUYER need a permit (residence of Florida) if they are having a snake shiped in from another state ?

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## anatess

> You do NOT need a license to own... you DO need a license to SELL ball pythons in Florida.


Wolfy, I've looked into this last year when I sold a bumblebee.  I don't see any law that requires a permit for the sale of a ball python or a western hognose (the only 2 species I looked at) in Florida unless the law was passed this year.  Commercial sale is, of course, covered by the regular business license (license to operate a business in Florida).

Ball Python, in my understanding is covered under "Wildlife Not Requiring a Permit" under the group - 
_Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)_ 

The only possible section that will prohibit sales of a Ball Python without a permit is under Class III Wildlife, but class III specifically states:
_
Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC._

So, according to this section, Ball Pythons, being part of the list not requiring a permit for personal possession, does not require a special permit to sell.

What am I missing?

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## anatess

> I am so confused about this class 3 permit. For one there are two applications: no-cost personal pet, and one for public sales. Do I need to apply for both or does the second one cover personal sales?
> 
> 
> 
> Please do because this is making no sense to me.


Ball Python is not a Class III Wildlife.

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## anatess

> does the BUYER need a permit (residence of Florida) if they are having a snake shiped in from another state ?


The buyer is not required to have a permit.

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## Wh00h0069

I hope this has not already been asked, but what if you sell snakes from a different state to an individual living in Florida?

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## anatess

> I hope this has not already been asked, but what if you sell snakes from a different state to an individual living in Florida?


Wouldn't matter.  IF there's a law that requires you to have a permit to sell a ball python in Florida, you cannot sell one in Florida without it.  BUT, I still haven't found that regulation that requires a permit to sell a ball python in Florida and I've been searching all afternoon.

Of course, if you sold the snake to a Floridian in your state you're cool.  Internet commerce to a Floridian will require a seller's permit if you delivered the snake to a Florida address.

Hope that makes sense.

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_Wh00h0069_ (07-19-2011)

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## anatess

Wolfy... okay I know you've been in contact with Tallahasee... But all I can find on ball pythons is this:

_Non-native non-venomous snakes, other than the conditional reptiles, only require a License to Possess Wildlife for Exhibition or Public Sale if you wish to exhibit or sell them, regardless of size.  For example:  You do not need a permit to own a ball python for personal use (as a pet)._

In the Q&A portion of the FWC site.

But, I re-read the regulation again and I just don't see where it states that you can't sell them without a permit unless I am misunderstanding this statement:

_however, this section does not apply to any wildlife not protected by law and the rules of the commission_

Did they list ball pythons as a protected species?  Because, last I checked, they're only "keeping an eye" on the wildlife importation of ball pythons as they are depleting the native sources - but they haven't listed them in any protection status.

So, what did Tallahassee say?  I mean - where does it list ball pythons as Class III wildlife?

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## SharkWreq

Very helpful information, thanks! It'd really suck to have the man knockin at my door like that! :X

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## tikigator

I have searched ALL afternoon and have found nothing that states it is illegal to have ball pythons in FL.  HOWEVER.....here is something interesting that I think maybe needs to be clarified:

http://biztaxlaw.about.com/od/glossa...rnsepermit.htm

There is a difference between a LICENSE and a PERMIT.  You must have a PERMIT to own a dangerous animal (venemous snake, endangered animal, etc).  Ball pythons do not require a permit.

However, in order to SELL an animal you must have a LICENSE.  I don't know the individual laws on this but I thought there was something about even selling dogs and cats, that legally you must have a breeders license to sell them.  Now of course there is a fine line between "selling" and "rehoming".  If you are breeding to sell...that is different than rehoming one animal.

And I think that's where things get confusing.  I know a few breedes who have gotten busted on craigslist for breeding and selling dogs.  They must have a kennel license with our county, and the must have a license to sell in the state of FL.

But Permits are different, permits are needed for exotic animals that may pose a threat or danger if not housed properly (certain species of huge snakes, wolves, bears, venemous snakes and insects, endangered fish, etc).

As far as Fish and Wildlife I have NO idea why they showed upto the OP's property to inspect UNLESS they thought perhaps he had Berms or other "reptiles requiring a permit".  

I actually have a business license, so I am able to sell from my home.  I cannot, however, do business IN my home (meaning I cannot have people come onto my property to do business (ie: pet store type selling).  However I can sell online, etc.....I think a "license to sell" is something the county or government would care more about than FWC.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

Ball pythons are class III wildlife.  I asked him this exact question via email as I was filling out the application.  

Anything that isn't a class I or class II is automatically considered a class III.  

Because Ball pythons are not listed under I or II, they are class III. 

It is conversations like this that end up leaving people confused about the laws. 

Here are the facts:

It is illegal to sell a snake in the State of Florida without a license. 

It is illegal to buy a snake form someone in the state of Florida that does not have a license. 

You do not have to have a license to OWN a ball python as a pet in the state of Florida.

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_Jyson_ (07-21-2011),_llovelace_ (07-18-2011)

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## tikigator

> Ball pythons are class III wildlife.  I asked him this exact question via email as I was filling out the application.  
> 
> Anything that isn't a class I or class II is automatically considered a class III.  
> 
> Because Ball pythons are not listed under I or II, they are class III. 
> 
> It is conversations like this that end up leaving people confused about the laws. 
> 
> Here are the facts:
> ...


Are you talking about a PERMIT or a LICENSE?  So you are saying any animal not listed in I or II is automatically in III?  So cats, dogs, fish, guinea pigs, parakeets?  Somehow I find that hard to believe.

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## Quiet Tempest

Class I and Class II are restricted species here in TN. You have to go through a lot of red tape and jump through a lot of hoops in order to keep an animal from either of those categories here. All other animals that are not specified in Class I and II are lumped into Class III. Class III covers everything else unless noted otherwise in the guidelines. I'd imagine that it's basically the same for FWC.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Yeah that's not right at all.. They're making the rules up as they go along and they should not be able to do that. So it's ok to change the rules for one animal but not another? Just add it here since it isn't listed there but don't do that with all animals.. Just the ones we don't really like and we know we can get money out of for fining all these people..

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## wolfy-hound

Cats and dogs etc etc are not "captive wildlife" but domestic pets. They are covered under other stuff. This is specifically "captive wildlife" licenses. There's a listing of species NOT covered under the "captive wildlife" designation.

*TAKEN FROM THE MYFWC.COM SITE*
The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies.  Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
b.Gerbils, hedgehogs
c.Honey possums, sugar gliders
d.Shell parakeets
e.Rats and mice
f.Canaries
g.Moles; shrews
h.Rabbits
i.Squirrels; chipmunks
j.Ferrets (domestic; European)
k.Lovebirds
l.Guinea pigs
m.Cockatiels
n.Hamsters
o.Parrots
p.Finches
q.Myna birds
r.Toucans
s.Doves: ringed, ruddy, and diamond
t.Button quail
u.Prairie dogs
v.Chinchillas
Note:  Camels, llamas, wild horses, jungle fowl, common guinea fowl and peafowl are considered domestic/domesticated species and do not require a permit.  Ratites and bison possessed for farming purposes do not require a permit.

*BREAK*
A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or sale of Class III wildlife.  Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

There is no formal list of Class III species.  You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species.  

*END QUOTED SECTION*

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (07-21-2011),_Sariel_ (07-19-2011)

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## Mft62485

> Cats and dogs etc etc are not "captive wildlife" but domestic pets. They are covered under other stuff. This is specifically "captive wildlife" licenses. There's a listing of species NOT covered under the "captive wildlife" designation.
> 
> *TAKEN FROM THE MYFWC.COM SITE*
> The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies.  Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:
> 
> a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
> b.Gerbils, hedgehogs
> c.Honey possums, sugar gliders
> d.Shell parakeets
> ...


Why are wild horses considered a domesticated species?

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## Aes_Sidhe

> Why are wild horses considered a domesticated species?


Because they are same specie as horses?? just they are live in the wild...

Only REAL wild horses are Tarpan (Europe) and Przewalski's Horse...Asia... You dont have true wild horses in America

Quote from wiki : The term "wild horse" is also used colloquially to refer to free roaming herds of feral horses such as the Mustang in the United States, the Brumby in Australia, and many others. These feral horses are untamed members of the domestic horse subspecies (Equus ferus caballus), and should not be confused with the two truly "wild" horse subspecies.




> Are you talking about a PERMIT or a LICENSE?  So you are saying any animal not listed in I or II is automatically in III?  So cats, dogs, fish, guinea pigs, parakeets?  Somehow I find that hard to believe.


Yes theoretically You need a license to sell You Hamster your guinea pig parakeets beta fish to another person...

As wolfy said cats and dogs are "domesticated" animals and they are put in to different shelf but for SELLING anything what is not domesticated  You need to have Proper LICENSE... 

Why Do you Thing Craigslist have disclaimer that is NO ANIMAL SALES but adoptions ??

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## SoFarAway

Wow, that's pretty scary. I had no idea that you need a license just to sell a BP in Florida. Sorry you had to be fined, but at least you're able to keep your snakes and didn't spend any time in jail.

I am glad that they're taking more interest in who owns/ sells herps without completely banning the animals. I'd rather see a few responsible people pay a fine for their animals than a bunch of idiotsrunning around unchecked and neglecting their snakes.

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## hross

Charging a rehoming fee would be in violation of the law. I really think a trade could get you into trouble if the person you are trading with is not licensed to sell. Here in florida we are actually lucky that fwcc fights to protect its turf, it keeps the local municipalities from creating a ton of individual laws governing possession of wildlife like many of the northern states and cities.

Mike is very much correct in his simple 3 point breakdown of selling and possession of any reptile. 50 dollars is much cheaper than a court date or the threat of having your animals confiscated.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (07-21-2011)

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## anatess

> Cats and dogs etc etc are not "captive wildlife" but domestic pets. They are covered under other stuff. This is specifically "captive wildlife" licenses. There's a listing of species NOT covered under the "captive wildlife" designation.
> 
> *TAKEN FROM THE MYFWC.COM SITE*
> The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies.  Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:
> 
> a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
> b.Gerbils, hedgehogs
> c.Honey possums, sugar gliders
> d.Shell parakeets
> ...


Wolfy, Mike... Ball Pythons are not Class III because they are "a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)".

I cannot find any regulation that specifies Ball Pythons as "otherwise regulated" nor "species of special concern" nor "protected status".

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## anatess

> As far as Fish and Wildlife I have NO idea why they showed upto the OP's property to inspect UNLESS they thought perhaps he had Berms or other "reptiles requiring a permit".


I'm beginning to think that somebody may have ratted him out.  Maybe a neighbor hoping to get his lot confiscated?  Or something like that?

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## hross

I assume mike had a non advertised sale. They came looking for a permit based on selling of reptiles, not possession. 

You can own your ball pythons without a license, but you can not sell them without a class 3 permit for sale or exhibit. I can not buy reptiles from anyone in florida without a permit. Yes, people probably skirt the law at shows, but it does not make it legal. 

I know the fish and wild life site is confusing, and seemingly provides loopholes. But, they very much enforce the sale of reptiles. Regardless if it is your pet or a few extra babies that you take to a pet shop. I am not trying to preach. I just would hate for someone to get arrested for not knowing/ understanding the law. I noticed several published stings in the tampa area last year. And, the outcomes were court bound; not nearly as lucky as Mike (i am sure politeness and respect went a long way for you)
thanks
howard

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## anatess

> I assume mike had a non advertised sale. They came looking for a permit based on selling of reptiles, not possession. 
> 
> You can own your ball pythons without a license, but you can not sell them without a class 3 permit for sale or exhibit. I can not buy reptiles from anyone in florida without a permit. Yes, people probably skirt the law at shows, but it does not make it legal. 
> 
> I know the fish and wild life site is confusing, and seemingly provides loopholes. But, they very much enforce the sale of reptiles. Regardless if it is your pet or a few extra babies that you take to a pet shop. I am not trying to preach. I just would hate for someone to get arrested for not knowing/ understanding the law. I noticed several published stings in the tampa area last year. And, the outcomes were court bound; not nearly as lucky as Mike (i am sure politeness and respect went a long way for you)
> thanks
> howard


Howard, if you can please show us the regulation that classifies Ball Python as a Class III reptile... I've been looking and I can't find it.  Help?  (see my previous posts above).

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## sgath92

> I am glad that they're taking more interest in who owns/ sells herps without completely banning the animals. I'd rather see a few responsible people pay a fine for their animals than a bunch of idiotsrunning around unchecked and neglecting their snakes.


They are completely banning animals, just not BPs [yet].

FL is largely responsible for all the various attempts to get a federal ban on  the "large 9"

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## hross

i completely understand. i do not have the legislation, and i noticed the same what "seems" to be obvious exception years ago. I have been permitted for about 12 years now, and do not believe the fwcc site info is complete or fully accurate (at least confusing). At Daytona last year i noticed fwcc officers enforcing a lot of new regulations. But, to sell ANY reptile the answer has been the same for over a decade. If you call fwcc, I am sure the officer in charge of sending the permit applications can answer your questions in the detail you request.

----------

_Mike Cavanaugh_ (07-23-2011)

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## anatess

> i completely understand. i do not have the legislation, and i noticed the same what "seems" to be obvious exception years ago. I have been permitted for about 12 years now, and do not believe the fwcc site info is complete or fully accurate (at least confusing). At Daytona last year i noticed fwcc officers enforcing a lot of new regulations. But, to sell ANY reptile the answer has been the same for over a decade. If you call fwcc, I am sure the officer in charge of sending the permit applications can answer your questions in the detail you request.


I have done that - called FWC and sent an email and sent a question through the website.  They haven't replied yet.  I also left a voicemail with my Congresman but no reply yet on that either.

I'm actually not only looking in FWC.  I'm going straight to the FAC.  So, those who have experience, if you can please just give me the regulation number that would really help me out lots.

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## aalomon

I have a few other questions from looking at the application.

1. Does this mean there is absolutely NO hobby breeding in Florida? Looking at the license, it also looks like you need a business license to fill it out properly... 

2. On the species list do you have to list all the class 3 reptiles you own, even if you do not plan on breeding or selling them. I know its a good idea, but my question is if thats that the application is specifically asking for.

3. (semi joke question) How are you supposed to list all the species in that little box? Do you attach something else to the back?

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## Aes_Sidhe

> Wolfy, Mike... Ball Pythons are not Class III because they are "a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)".
> 
> I cannot find any regulation that specifies Ball Pythons as "otherwise regulated" nor "species of special concern" nor "protected status".


A permit is required for personal* possession, exhibition or sale* of Class III wildlife.  Class III wildlife are *all species not listed as Class I or Class II*; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for *personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022*, FAC.

There is no formal list of Class III species.  You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species.  Florida residents 16 years of age and older may apply for permit to possess, exhibit or sell Class III wildlife.

Note:  A special permit is needed to import leopard tortoises (Geochelone pardalis), African spurred tortoises (G. sulcata) or Bell's hingeback tortoises (Kinixys belliana) from another state.

and there is 68A-6.0022, what they telling You about and was Posted by Wolfy what exclude animals from animals You *dont need have permit for POSSESSION* but You still Need category III LICENSE is You want to *SELL ANY OF THIS ANIMAL* :

The following species *do not require a permit for personal POSSESSION* as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
b.Gerbils, hedgehogs
c.Honey possums, sugar gliders
d.Shell parakeets
e.Rats and mice
f.Canaries
g.Moles; shrews
h.Rabbits
i.Squirrels; chipmunks
j.Ferrets (domestic; European)
k.Lovebirds
l.Guinea pigs
m.Cockatiels
n.Hamsters
o.Parrots
p.Finches
q.Myna birds
r.Toucans
s.Doves: ringed, ruddy, and diamond
t.Button quail
u.Prairie dogs
v.Chinchillas
Note: Camels, llamas, wild horses, jungle fowl, common guinea fowl and peafowl are considered domestic/domesticated species and do not require a permit. Ratites and bison possessed for farming purposes do not require a permit.

SO SUMMARY You Don't need  permit for POSSESSION of ball pythons because they fall in to Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)* BUT YOU NEED THAT PERMIT IF YOU WANT TO SELL YOUR BALL PYTHON*.... same as You need that permit if You want to sell your Hamster, Guinea Pig, Parakeet, or even Beta Fish  

Hope that will Clear everything....

----------

_Mike Cavanaugh_ (07-21-2011),wolfy-hound (07-19-2011)

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## anatess

> A permit is required for personal* possession, exhibition or sale* of Class III wildlife.  Class III wildlife are *all species not listed as Class I or Class II*; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for *personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022*, FAC.
> 
> There is no formal list of Class III species.  You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species.  Florida residents 16 years of age and older may apply for permit to possess, exhibit or sell Class III wildlife.
> 
> Note:  A special permit is needed to import leopard tortoises (Geochelone pardalis), African spurred tortoises (G. sulcata) or Bell's hingeback tortoises (Kinixys belliana) from another state.
> 
> and there is 68A-6.0022, what they telling You about and was Posted by Wolfy what exclude animals from animals You *dont need have permit for POSSESSION* but You still Need category III LICENSE is You want to *SELL ANY OF THIS ANIMAL* :
> 
> The following species *do not require a permit for personal POSSESSION* as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:
> ...



NO.  It doesn't clear everything...

*Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.*

"AND NOT AMONG THOSE SPECIES IN THE PERSONAL POSESSION LIST" makes a Ball Python NOT a Class III reptile.  In contrast, an Eastern Indigo IS a Class III reptile by virtue of its protection status.  

So, that regulation you are quoting does not specify that you require a PERMIT to SELL a non-Class III reptile.  There will be a different regulation stating the permit requirement for the SALE of non-Class III, non-domesticated wildlife.  That's what we are trying to find.

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## Aes_Sidhe

I gonna Loose my patience in The Minute.... 

68A-6.0022 EXCLUDE BALL PYTHONS FROM POSSESSION  :Rage:  :Rage:  :Rage:  :Rage: 

THERE IS NO WORD ABOUT ELUDING FOR SALE  :Rage:  :Rage:  :Rage:  :Rage: 

A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or SALE of Class III wildlife

Rule 68A-6.0022 is about excluding that listed species from having Class III PERMIT FOR POSSESSION NOT FOR SALE

The following species do not require a permit for personal POSSESSION as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

and because ball python qualify in point a) Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
that means You dont need permit if You want keep it as a pet...

ONE MORE TIME :
The following species do not require a permit for personal POSSESSION as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

Same as exuding have permit for hamster guinea pig or beta Fish... BUT For SALE all that Species in Rule 68A-6.0022 are still qualified as CLASS III WILD LIFE

CLEAR NOW ?? :Please:  :Please:  :Please:

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## Don

> I had a visitor at my HOUSE yesterday morning.  It was the local Florida Wildlife Commission investigator!  He introduced himself, showed his badge and then asked to see my Florida license for selling wildlife in Florida.   Safe to say my heart just about stopped...  Especially when I saw his handcuffs on his belt!


Glad you didn't go to the pokie!  Bet that was an eye opener.   :Surprised:

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## anatess

> I gonna Loose my patience in The Minute.... 
> 
> 68A-6.0022 EXCLUDE BALL PYTHONS FROM POSSESSION 
> 
> THERE IS NO WORD ABOUT ELUDING FOR SALE 
> 
> A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or SALE of Class III wildlife
> 
> Rule 68A-6.0022 is about excluding that listed species from having Class III PERMIT FOR POSSESSION NOT FOR SALE
> ...


NO...  IT IS NOT CLEAR.  Not the way THAT particular regulation is worded!

Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; *and* not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

That *AND* is part of the *definition* of a CLASS III WILDLIFE.  It has nothing to do with what you can do with a CLASS III!

C'mon now...

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## Aes_Sidhe

With letter in words : personal possession.. You dont Understand ??

Ok I;ll pass...

There are 2 possibilities there... 

Or my English suck because is not my native language...


Or you case is so hopeless that even Dr. House cant help here...

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## tikigator

> With letter in words : personal possession.
> 
> Or you case is so hopeless that even Dr. House cant help here...


 :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  OMG I think I almost peed my pants!!  HAHAHAHA!!  That was FUNNY!!!! :Good Job: 

Okay....SO......let me see if I UNDERSTAND this............you are saying that the regulations imply that if you have a pet guniea pig (that you "possess" a pet guniea pig) that you do not have to have a permit.  However, if your Guniea pig turns out to be a female and has babies and you want to SELL them, then you have to apply to get a PERMIT to SELL the Guniea pigs.....because now that you are SELLING, they are considered Type III wildlife that requires a permit??   :Confused: 

Because let me tell you, I have A TON of people (I'm talking at LEAST a dozen personal friends) who SELL parakeets, hamsters, guniea pigs, geckos, etc and NONE of them have a PERMIT to do so.

However, if that is what you're saying....that if you OWN a ball python as a PET you do not have to have a PERMIT.  But if you want to SELL your ball python then you have to have a permit.

Sorry FWC but that is the most absured backwards load of you-know-what that I have EVER heard.  I am with you anatess...I am contacting FWC myself. This is bologna.

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## tikigator

I just called FWC and spoke with an officer.  She said in order to OWN a ball python as a PET you do NOT have to have a license but if you want to SELL or EXHIBIT you MUST have a license.

I'm applying, better safe than sorry.  With my luck they would show upto my house or bust me on craigslist!  I do own a business though and have an LLC but she said I still have to have a license with FWC.  I think it's just another way for them to make some bucks.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Aes_Sidhe

> OMG I think I almost peed my pants!!  HAHAHAHA!!  That was FUNNY!!!!
> 
> Okay....SO......let me see if I UNDERSTAND this............you are saying that the regulations imply that if you have a pet guniea pig (that you "possess" a pet guniea pig) that you do not have to have a permit.  However, if your Guniea pig turns out to be a female and has babies and you want to SELL them, then you have to apply to get a PERMIT to SELL the Guniea pigs.....because now that you are SELLING, they are considered Type III wildlife that requires a permit??  
> 
> Because let me tell you, I have A TON of people (I'm talking at LEAST a dozen personal friends) who SELL parakeets, hamsters, guniea pigs, geckos, etc and NONE of them have a PERMIT to do so.
> 
> However, if that is what you're saying....that if you OWN a ball python as a PET you do not have to have a PERMIT.  But if you want to SELL your ball python then you have to have a permit.


That's exactly right... but because hamsters guinea pigs or parakeets are cute fluffy small creatures not "MONSTER KILLING PEOPLE" ball pythons nobody probably give squat about them... but by law You need Class III permit to sell them.... And I bet If you take your Ball Python to the park and FWC officer gonna have bad day and wanna be pain in the ass He could ask You for Your CLASS III Permit for public exhibition... because by theory u should have one (so people Who walk in  South Florida Cities and offer for example pictures with Boa constrictor or green Iguana they for sure gonna be ask for that permit)

Stupid I know... maybe even ridiculous... but less ridiculous that banning all boas and pythons just because they are boa or pythons like we have in NYC (CITY Limits ONLY) so Yea... if you have them in your home just as pets... You are totally fine.. but if you want to sell them... 50$ per year ... that much that gonna cost you...

----------


## wolfy-hound

> NO...  IT IS NOT CLEAR.  Not the way THAT particular regulation is worded!
> 
> Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; *and* not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.
> 
> That *AND* is part of the *definition* of a CLASS III WILDLIFE.  It has nothing to do with what you can do with a CLASS III!
> 
> C'mon now...


To put this COMPLETELY CLEARLY...
A ball python is NOT listed as Class I or Class II
A ball python is NOT listed amoung those species specifically listed as not requiring a permit.
Therefor a ball python IS a Class III captive wildlife.

I think you are misreading the tenses. Ball pythons are Class III.

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## anatess

> To put this COMPLETELY CLEARLY...
> A ball python is NOT listed as Class I or Class II
> *A ball python is NOT listed amoung those species specifically listed as not requiring a permit*.
> Therefor a ball python IS a Class III captive wildlife.
> 
> I think you are misreading the tenses. Ball pythons are Class III.


No wolfy.  Ball Pythons are not Class III because they are listed among those species specifically listed as not requiring a permit... it's the very first one on that list.  It's letter a.) even.

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## anatess

> With letter in words : personal possession.. You dont Understand ??
> 
> Ok I;ll pass...
> 
> There are 2 possibilities there... 
> 
> Or my English suck because is not my native language...
> 
> 
> Or you case is so hopeless that even Dr. House cant help here...



English is only my 3rd language, so that's not an excuse.


READ IT AGAIN.  The Statement under Class III Wildlife is exactly what wolfy stated above.  The specific mention of "not listed in the personal possession list" is NOT in the statement that specifies what you can DO with a class III wildlife.  It is in the statement that specifies the DEFINITION of a class III wildlife.

I am not debating you on what you can do with Class III wildlife.  I am arguing with you that a Ball Python is NOT considered a Class III wildlife therefore, is not subject to the Class III wildlife requirements!

I am not questioning whether a ball python requires a permit for sale or not.  I am questioning WHERE in the Florida Administration Code does it state that a Ball Python requires a permit for sale... because that Class III wildlife is NOT it - or if it is, it is arguable.

Just so you can be a bit confident in my English... English may just be my 3rd language, but I did study it formally for 12 years and I worked for a bit at my uncle's law office wading through regulations and codes.  A lot of times, a regulation is worded differently from the intent of the bill and finalized into code with that mis-statement.  That's usually how a lawyer can get away with a "loophole" in the law when brought to court and how some judge can arbitrary rule from the bench by deciding on perceived intent instead of wording!

So, if the intent is that ball python sales permit is required by virtue of Class III wildlife then somebody has to change the wording of that code.  Because, as it stands now, that code holds shaky water if brought before a judge.

----------


## anatess

P.S.

A lot of you is saying, better safe than sorry - just pay the $50 and be done with it.  I'm not a breeder.  I don't need a permit.  But, I can't just let that one go.  Because, if you let a $50 thing go, what happens if they up it to $5,000/year?

I can't just easily hand over hard-earned money like that when the people didn't vote on it.  That goes with any fees, taxes, fines, or anything else.

I will give you an example - the guy who fixes my air conditioner has not paid federal income taxes for almost 20 years.  He has a small business fixing air conditioners.  He could not find in Federal Law where it specifies that he has to pay income taxes so he sent a letter to the IRS asking them to tell him how much he owes in taxes and what law supports the claim.  The IRS put a lien on his business and his personal home.  He went to court, showed the judge his bank account balance, held a pen and a blank check, and then asked the judge - tell me what I owe and show me the law that supports it.  Guess what - the judge let him go.  The never took the lein off his house so he sued the IRS... faced the same judge and the judge not only freed his business and his house, he awarded him $20,000 for mistaken lein or some such.  This happened 2 more times.  It's now almost 20 years and the IRS still did not provide him with how much he owes and the law that supports such a claim.  So, for almost 20 years, he hasn't paid a single dime of federal income tax.

And guess what - he never questioned that he owed taxes.  All he was asking is for them to show him the law that requires him - as a small-time air-conditioner repair guy - to pay income taxes.  Until today, he puts money in a money market account every year waiting for the IRS to tell him to pay the taxes... when he dies, that money is going to his children complete with interest.

I'm not saying we should all do this.  All I'm saying is - do not just hand over to the government your hard-earned money without making sure you owe it to them - unless you just want to freely donate it to the government or something...

----------


## Aes_Sidhe

Florida requires permits for wildlife possession, exhibition and sale.

Commercial and private facilities must have permits for many types of native and nonnative animals - including potentially dangerous animals, such as Florida black bears and Florida panthers. These facilities include zoos, circuses, alligator farms, pet shops, tropical fish farms and individuals who own a class I, II or III animal (see wildlife categories below).

A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition and sale of Class III wildlife.  

Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

Yes after reading this point You can assume that You dont need any permit for ball pythons because as listed in  68A-6.0022 ball python falls in category 
(a) Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected)

But key words in regulation 68A-6.0022 are:

(2) No permit shall be required to possess the following wildlife for personal use, unless possession of a species is otherwise regulated by other rules of the Commission:

There is no word about sale or exhibition!!!!

So there for : YOU DON'T NEED  PERMIT TO POSSES (a) Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected) with is ball python...

When You go to application section:
http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/ca.../applications/

You have 2:
Class III, No-cost Personal Pet Permit
Class III, for Exhibition or Public Sale

YOU NEED PERMIT FOR SALE Ball python and because Ball Python is not listed specifically as a specie in Category I or Category II list... fall to Category III automatically.... FOR SALE...and  is exclude from that category for personal possession by rule 68A-6.0022

IF YOU CANT UNDERSTAND THAT.... Sorry....Really even Dr.House cant help You...

_For people selling Feeders.... good news:  rules 68A-6.0022 state that:_

(3) No permit shall be required for the sale of poultry, hamsters, guinea pigs, domestic rats and [/I]mice, gerbils, or chameleons (Anolis).

So yea You can sell this stuff without permit but..... if You want sell beta fish or parakeet You need CLASS III permit

*Edit: That's my last post in this discussion i feel tired of repeating myself...
*
To every Florida breeder:
Go get Your Class III permit and lets hope those idiots in Your state don't put more regulations on your heads... Good luck in Your future breeding projects  :Good Job:

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## Raptor

So wait. People in florida need permits to be able to sell livestock O.o

----------


## anatess

Sorry Aes_Sidhe, you are still not getting me.  You are repeating yourself because you are not trying to understand what I'M saying.  You just keep on insisting on what YOU'RE saying!

The issue ends here:
*Class III wildlife are* all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

It doesn't go beyond that.

"CLASS III WILDLIFE *ARE*" makes that paragraph a DEFINITION statement not an ACTION statement.  Translated to plain English it means - if your animal is NOT listed in Class I, Class II, OR 68A-6.0022, it IS a Class III wildlife.  If your animal IS listed in CLASS I, CLASS II, OR 68A-6.0022, it IS NOT a Class III wildlife.  That paragraph has nothing to do with what you CAN DO with a Class III Wildlife.

If that's not the intent of that code, then they need to reword that code and resubmit it to Congress.

----------


## anatess

> So wait. People in florida need permits to be able to sell livestock O.o


No.  The administrative code in question only covers WILDLIFE.  It doesn't cover livestock nor domesticated animals like dogs and cats.  There's a different code for that.

----------


## Raptor

> No.  The administrative code in question only covers WILDLIFE.  It doesn't cover livestock nor domesticated animals like dogs and cats.  There's a different code for that.


Considering how Florida is trying to limit everything..I'm just happy that I live in a lax state.

----------


## sgath92

> [SIZE="2"]Class III wildlife are all species:
> 
> -not listed as Class I
> -not listed as Class II
> -not among those species that are specifically listed as *not requiring a permit for personal possession* in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.


That would mean that they are not Class III. They don't meet the definition of class III because _no permit is required for the personal possession of them_. By the letter of this regulation FWC is ignoring the law & making it up as they go. They'll keep getting away with it too, until someone takes them before a judge over it. 

However it would be risky for someone to refuse to get licensed before taking them to court. If someone is serious about actually going before a judge on this they really should get the license in case the judge rules against you [bad rulings happen so its better to be prepared]. If the judges rules against FWC you'd be able to get your $50 back. The last thing you want is to have a judge rule against you and have FWC waiting at your car with handcuffs because you still aren't licensed.

Bureaucrats regularly interpret laws in their "own special way" and you either have to put up with it or find a way to bring them before a judge. Not everyone has the time & means to do that though. For a lot of people it makes more sense to simply go along with it.

I have a story like this from NH a few years ago. See in NH every car is required by law to have a muffler. This is actually spelled out in their statutes [it's not a well written law and does not have any exclusions for say; antique cars or all electric cars but we'll ignore that for this post since it's not relevant]. A separate statute spells out what the legal definition of a muffler is.

In NH in order for a muffler to be considered a legal muffler it must use either bellow disks or chambers and cannot be a "straight through" design like some glasspacks are. So if you try to get a car inspected with a supertrapp [a straight glass pack design with bellow disks at the end of it] the inspectors will look at it, wonder if it is legal, and call in the police for a final say. In NH there is a special branch of the state police called the DOT police who enforce vehicular regulations [like window tint and emissions] and they're the ones shops have to ultimately answer to if they pass a car that's not street legal. A shop can lose its ability to inspect cars if the DOT decides they're breaking the law too much and they will randomly go into a shop to check their books to see how often they fail cars & why. If they don't see enough fails that raises red flags and makes them question whether the shop is passing some cars illegally.

Anyhow; by the letter of the law the supertrapp design is legal because it uses bellow disks. But the DOT police, who actually enforce this part of the law books, are undecided as to whether it's actually street legal. Some DOT police insist it's not street legal and some DOT police insist it is street legal. The shops don't want to loose their ability to inspect cars, so you can guess which side they listen to; and will not pass a car with a legal muffler when in doubt. I am sure if someone went before a judge they could have the DOT "corrected" on this but no one has yet pushed the issue because well, there just aren't enough people in that state who want to use that muffler who care enough to be bothered with the hassle & SEMA won't get involved because the DOT turn a blind eye to street rods & rat rods as long as they are older than a certain model year.

----------

_anatess_ (07-20-2011)

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## anatess

Sgath, you won't believe how much relieved I am that somebody actually understood what I was saying!  For a while there, I thought I was speaking Martian!

----------


## Aes_Sidhe

> Sorry Aes_Sidhe, you are still not getting me.  You are repeating yourself because you are not trying to understand what I'M saying.  You just keep on insisting on what YOU'RE saying!
> 
> The issue ends here:
> *Class III wildlife are* all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.
> 
> It doesn't go beyond that.
> 
> "CLASS III WILDLIFE *ARE*" makes that paragraph a DEFINITION statement not an ACTION statement.  Translated to plain English it means - if your animal is NOT listed in Class I, Class II, OR 68A-6.0022, it IS a Class III wildlife.  If your animal IS listed in CLASS I, CLASS II, OR 68A-6.0022, it IS NOT a Class III wildlife.  That paragraph has nothing to do with what you CAN DO with a Class III Wildlife.
> 
> If that's not the intent of that code, then they need to reword that code and resubmit it to Congress.


 *sighs* Yes i know that... 
But my interpretation in a official FWC interpretation... and If You wanna fight with bureaucracy is Your choice...

If for example that rule will be stated like :
Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II. There are exceptions stated in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC. excluding certain species from having Class III permit for possession or sale.

Nobody will have problem with interpretation...

But tell me something...

Do You really wanna have situation when FWC Officer will knock to your door as you for a license  and you will try explain to him glitch in legislation... ???

I can bet my ass on that he will force his interpretation lock you up and confiscate Your whole collection ?? Even if you hire a good lawyer.. and win in court... is really worthy whole stress  not even yours but your animals?? 
And Good lawyer will cost you way more that 50$...

So Yes rewording that part of this particular law is necessary to avoid misinterpretation...  but in the mean time I advise you to buy that Permit if you wanna sell you ball python... and then go to war with Florida Congress  :Good Job: 

Edit: and when You go for that war... think about close minded Florida politicians who wants all exotic animals  banned from trade...
And if you dont have lobby similar to USARK backing you.... Ask yourself a Question : Is your war gonna do more good or more harm ??

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## sgath92

> Sgath, you won't believe how much relieved I am that somebody actually understood what I was saying!  For a while there, I thought I was speaking Martian!


I really really don't like the tax reference though, because if someone refused to get the license while the merits behind it are in litigation there'd be nothing to stop the FWC from going into your house, confiscating the whole operation, and euthanizing them before a ruling is made. Sure, you'd probably be able to go after the FWC for damages _if the judge agrees with your case later on_ but it could potentially kill a lot of animals for no real reason and the claimant would basically have to start over from scratch. How many times have we seen local or state agencies walk out of someone's house with the entire operation [cages and all] after interpreting it as illegal? I remember a case from NY where the DEC raided a house and left with *both* the legally owned and illegally owned animals after accusing the residents of breaking the law.

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-20-2011)

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## anatess

> I really really don't like the tax reference though, because if someone refused to get the license while the merits behind it are in litigation there'd be nothing to stop the FWC from going into your house, confiscating the whole operation, and euthanizing them before a ruling is made. Sure, you'd probably be able to go after the FWC for damages _if the judge agrees with your case later on_ but it could potentially kill a lot of animals for no real reason and the claimant would basically have to start over from scratch. How many times have we seen local or state agencies walk out of someone's house with the entire operation [cages and all] after interpreting it as illegal? I remember a case from NY where the DEC raided a house and left with *both* the legally owned and illegally owned animals after accusing the residents of breaking the law.



That's why I mentioned on the bottom - not that we should do this.

In the tax situation - my friend had his checkbook, pen, and bank balance statement infront of the judge.  He didn't just "not pay it".  He sent a letter to the IRS in writing with certified receipt for information on the amount of money that he owes and the regulation that supports it.  He filed his taxes every year - with a taxable income of 0.

There is no way he is getting out of the courtroom in handcuffs unless within the time he was there, the USA gets overpowered by China.

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## sgath92

I was going to add this but it's too late for me to edit my post:

Don't think that these enforcement agencies will wait for legal verification of their policies before doing something with the animals they confiscate.

In PA a couple years ago the state considered rolling out some new regulations for exotic birds and among the species that were mentioned in the discussion was the nanday conure. PA has it's own version of the FWC called the "PA Gaming Commission." PA Gaming had been confiscating & killing nandays because they had mistakenly believed they were illegal [a few states have kill on discovery laws for nandays because agriculture interests feared what might happen if they establish themselves in the wild here]. I kid you not PA Gaming was publicly saying "wait, you mean after all this time these conures were actually legal in this state!?!"  :Surprised:   :Bonk:   :Frustrated:  They had no idea!!! They were going around treating them as contraband because they thought they were following the law when in truth the law *didn't even exist*.

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## anatess

> *sighs* Yes i know that... 
> But my interpretation in a official FWC interpretation... and If You wanna fight with bureaucracy is Your choice...
> 
> If for example that rule will be stated like :
> Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II. There are exceptions stated in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC. excluding certain species from having Class III permit for possession or sale.
> 
> Nobody will have problem with interpretation...
> 
> But tell me something...
> ...


Aes_Sidhe... this is the mentality of people who grew up under Martial Law.  I was one of them.  Never again am I going to be TERRORIZED by my own government!

USARK and the like did not fight for a regulation that IS ALREADY IN THE CODE.  They are fighting to prevent Congress from passing a specific code!

Florida politicians have no say anymore on regulations already passed and finalized in the FAC.  It's done and over with.  What I am fighting for - and will always fight for - is to make sure that the people who have the guns that are responsible for enforcing the law do not just take away my property outside of the rule of law!  And no, I don't intend to take my own gun and wage war with it!

And no, I am not telling you NOT to pay $50.  I'm not telling you that you don't have to get a permit.  I am asking you, WHERE IN THE LAW does it say you need to?  Show me the regulation.

And that's the same question I just sent to the FWC and my congressman.  As of today, no reply yet.  

If they do reply with the same explanation you are presenting here (which, I'm starting to suspect will be the case because I can't find any other code in the FAC to support the permit), then I will have to go and submit a request to my congressman to change the wording of that law and see if it passes Congress.  If, it happens to make it to the Congress floor and it gets voted down, then you can take it to the judge if you are one of those who paid for a permit to get your money back.

Yes, it sounds like a lot of work right?  Well, government is not something you just take for granted or vote on like American Idol.  That's how you end up with Ferdinand Marcos for President and 20 years of Martial Law.  Or, in America, that's how you end up shouldering the cost of running a government who can't even begin to put a dent on its debt.  Coz, the people are too clueless or scared.

And another factoid:  I'm not an American Citizen.  I can't vote.  So, I have no say on what goes into the FAC but I get to abide by it because I'm a Florida resident.  So yeah, I'm fighting for the Americans.  Yeay me.

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## wolfy-hound

I give up. You do what you like, and argue with a judge when it comes to that.

I've read all the regs and permits ad nauseum and I know what it says. If you want to get all English major on the laws and try to twist it to combine two SEPERATE sections to make it say what you want it say, you go ahead.

For the official record.

In Florida by law, you do not need a license to own a ball python.
In Florida by law, you do need a license to sell a ball python.

If you choose to go along with someone's "interpetation" of the laws, then so be it. I'll try to pretend to be sympathetic when you're ranting about confiscated animals and getting on the news adding to the media about "irresponsible reptile owners".  I'll fail miserably, but I'll try to pretend.

I'm all finished now. My paperwork has been submitted, so if someone else goes off to jail, I've tried to do my part.

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## anatess

> I give up. You do what you like, and argue with a judge when it comes to that.
> 
> I've read all the regs and permits ad nauseum and I know what it says. If you want to get all English major on the laws and try to twist it to combine two SEPERATE sections to make it say what you want it say, you go ahead.
> 
> For the official record.
> 
> In Florida by law, you do not need a license to own a ball python.
> In Florida by law, you do need a license to sell a ball python.
> 
> ...


If you're talking to me, I'm not a breeder so I don't need a permit or anything.

I am a law-conscious non-citizen who has to pay attention to every wording of idiot Florida laws so they can't deport my a$$ for rehoming my ball python to LadyOhh last year without a permit!

So yes, it IS important!

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> No wolfy.  Ball Pythons are not Class III because they are listed among those species specifically listed as not requiring a permit... it's the very first one on that list.  It's letter a.) even.


LOL, I can't believe you are still arguing this!

As resposnsible herp owners we need to follow our local laws to protect the  future of the hobby if nothing else.    This is not debateable.  It is a FACT that you can not sell a ball python in the state of Florida without a license.  Don't like the law?  Contact your local representatives and tell them you want it changed.  *Don't try to say it isn't so because the wording is confusing.* 

Maybe this email chain will make it more clear to you Anatess...  Because you live in Jacksonville, this is the same man that will be standing at your door (if your selling ball pythons) to fine you, confiscate animals, and possibly even take you to jail for up to 6 months.

* Show Details FROM:Larson, Kevin TO:Mike Cavanaugh Message flagged Saturday, July 16, 2011 12:29 PMMessage bodyGood deal, thanks for the cooperation.

Investigator Kevin Larson
Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Division of Law Enforcement
DC 160*54257*110


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Cavanaugh [mailto:mccaavv@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 12:29 PM
To: Larson, Kevin
Subject: Re: Michael Cavanaugh and Ball Pythons

Thank you for that quick reply Kevin. 

I have put the application for the license along with my $50 check in the mail.  I will notify you via email as soon as my license arrives. 

I look forward to seeing you again some time in the future... under better circumstances!

Sincerely, 

Mike Cavanaugh




On Jul 16, 2011, at 10:52 AM, "Larson, Kevin" <Kevin.Larson@MyFWC.com> wrote:

> Mike,
> 
> Yes, they are in the class III category. 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Investigator Kevin Larson
> Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
> Division of Law Enforcement
> DC 160*54257*110
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Cavanaugh [mailto:mccaavv@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:09 AM
> To: Larson, Kevin
> Subject: Michael Cavanaugh and Ball Pythons
> 
> Kevin, 
> 
> Thank you for your visit today.  I have removed all adds from craigslist as you requested and I also emailed the administrator at BP.net to remove my add from that forum. 
> 
> I will sell NOTHING until I have my license. 
> 
> I have one question for you...  So are either the ball pythons or the red tail boas considered Class III Reptiles? 
> 
> Thanks again for your help.  I hope to have my application in the mail TODAY. 
> 
> Mike Cavanaugh
> > 904 318-3333
>* 





> I give up. You do what you like, and argue with a judge when it comes to that.
> 
> I've read all the regs and permits ad nauseum and I know what it says. If you want to get all English major on the laws and try to twist it to combine two SEPERATE sections to make it say what you want it say, you go ahead.
> 
> For the official record.
> 
> In Florida by law, you do not need a license to own a ball python.
> In Florida by law, you do need a license to sell a ball python.
> 
> ...


Exactly.

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-21-2011)

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## llovelace

See I knew they were trolling CL.

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## tikigator

> I give up. You do what you like, and argue with a judge when it comes to that.
> 
> I've read all the regs and permits ad nauseum and I know what it says. If you want to get all English major on the laws and try to twist it to combine two SEPERATE sections to make it say what you want it say, you go ahead.
> 
> For the official record.
> 
> In Florida by law, you do not need a license to own a ball python.
> In Florida by law, you do need a license to sell a ball python.
> 
> ...


My paperwork and $50 check went in the mail TODAY!    :Smile:

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> See I knew they were trolling CL.


Dont know that for sure, because when he asked how I was selling them i immediately told him through craigslist, bp.net and referrals from people I worked with in the past.  I will never lie to an officer.  Could he have found me from craigslist?  Maybe.  But I have an unlisted number, and I have never had an address on any of my adds.  I have never even had anyone I have sold to at my house before.  Nobody knows where I live.  So who knows. 

I am glad to hear that you don't need the license to sell rodents....  though I probably would need it for my ASF's...  but that is ok because I only sell dead / frozen feeders.  You can even sell frozen ASF's in Georgia (live asf's are illegal in Ga)

Annatess, I find it very hard to believe that anyone is going to get deported over selling one snake when you had no idea it was illegal.   Especially when the wording of the law can easily be seen as poor.  

The message here is simple.  Pay the fee.  Do what the law requires.  This is what being a responsible keeper is all about.  I am ashamed that I did not know the law better myself.  Now I now it and I will follow it to a T.  And I will make sure every reptile person I see knows about it to.  

Sure, you could fight it all the way up the local courts and have it determined that you can't be fined for selling your BP.  But then what is going to happen?  I will tell you...   They will come out with a new law the next year that declares  you DO specifically have to have a license to sell a BP, and now, to cover the cost of recent litigation, the fee to sell BP's has increased to $5,000 per year. 

No Thanks!  Follow the rules people (even if they are poorly worded or weak)   That is what you agree to do when you live in America.  And don't push to change laws without first considering the likely consiquinces! 


I am going to politely bow out of this conversation now.   Considering the number of Florida members on this forum, I think the mods should seriously consider making this thread a sticky.  Anyone in Florida that comes to the site needs to read this thread.   We need to follow the rules TOGETHER as a community so we don't hurt the future of our hobby!!!!

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## Mike Cavanaugh

And anatess... you know that I love you!!!!

I am glad I showed you this site because time and time again you have proven to be a valuable member of our community!  Just wanted to make sure you know that I still have nothing but love for ya!!!  And will happy to work with you in the future once I GET MY LICENSE!!!

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## aalomon

Question for those of you who have filled this out. Do you also need a business license for this permit? If you dont have one, what do you put in for the business name?

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## FINGAZZ

i was wondering the same thing.

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## Russ Lawson

> Question for those of you who have filled this out. Do you also need a business license for this permit? If you dont have one, what do you put in for the business name?


No, you do not. Individuals can apply for a Class III license. You just put your name in the business name line.

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## DakotaB

That is such crap. Florida try to regulate way to many things. Wonder how many people pn craigslist get hit by selling the bp that got to big and they didnt want anymore.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

Well apparently I made the mistake of not including my emergency evacuation plan....   Got a letter back from the wildlife comission explaining that I needed to provide it.   Wife and I spent about an hour filling it out.  To go along with legal requirements we had to do some pretty silly things including explaining in detail what we would do with my bp collection in the event that we had to evacuate...   Even had to draw a map of the house showing where animals are kept and where supplies are and ect.  Obviously this is all set up specifically for pet shops..  Not hobby breeders. 

Sent all that off again...   Hopefully the next thing we get is the license.   They took the money for the license out of checking about 3 days after we mailed the original application.

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## jjhall8

Mike, I did not have to send them the emergency plan and it clearly states that. Somebody made a mistake with yours.I sent mine in and received it in about 2.5 weeks. I sent mine in after you did and I got mine Aug. 7th without sending the emergency plan.I think I would be making a call if I were you.

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## wolfy-hound

I got my license back finally.

The evacuation/disaster plan is actually for all breeders in an attempt to make certain that another issue like the Everglades doesn't happen. Burms were released from a breeding facility by a severe hurricane. Obviously the owner/workers did not have any plan for securing the snakes, then when the facility was destroyed, tons of snakes were released into the Everglades and the rest is sadly, history.

In the event of a hurricane in Florida, we should all be aware of our pets and what we would do to secure them from accidental release.

It does seem bizarre though, when you're writing down the "location of capture equipment" as "kitchen" or "guest bathroom".  LOL.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> It does seem bizarre though, when you're writing down the "location of capture equipment" as "kitchen" or "guest bathroom".  LOL.


exactly what I was thinking!  These secretaries in Tallahasee must think we are total freaks!

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## wolfy-hound

Ha, I was thinking up better descriptive words for places. "Food prep area" and "remote storage facility"(the outdoor shed).

Heh.

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## FINGAZZ

so what do they ask for when having to write down the emergency plan.can anyone put the list of things they want in order to get the licence?

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## wolfy-hound

If you download the PDF, it spells out everything you need. It doesn't cost anything to download, or print. You only pay when you send in the permit request paperwork.(you must mail it in)

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## Gabe Rienzo

i want to just buy, own and breed snakes...

aswell as a few mamals i may or may not be getting... what form must i fill out to ensure i wont be fined? anyone know? theres like 8 different 1's and they dont specify exactly.

(im blonde) <---- could be a reason haha

thanks everyone!

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