# Ball Pythons > BP Husbandry > Advanced BP Husbandry >  Please Help I found a snake spinoff aka The great pine debate

## shaneswife828

> You can use pine as substrate.


From a vet tech stand point pine and cedar both are bad for almost all animals. For rodents we recommended care fresh, aspen, or shredded newspaper(yesterdays news works as well). for ball pythons and the likes we recommended coconut fiber, reptile carpet, birch bark, newspaper,paper towels, aspen, and such. Pine and cedar have oils in them that are harmful. They can cause respiratory issues, skin and scale issues, and worse. I have snakes come in with damaged ventral scales do to the pine bedding their owner was using. After switching from the pine the problem stopped. Any "good" reptile owner will tell you to avoid pine at all cost as well as cedar. I have a feeling more people will agree with me rather than disagree. A quick google search will tell you that both cedar and pine are not good substrate for any animal whether it be mammalian or reptilian.

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## Skiploder

> I have 21 snakes on pine.  There are people on here ("good" people, too) who have kept snakes on pine for much longer than you or I.


What the hell do you know?  From a vet tech standpoint, you are a substrate loser.

Apparently, so am I.

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ballpythonluvr (03-16-2015),_George1994_ (03-19-2015),_Sonny1318_ (03-16-2015)

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## Citrus

> What the hell do you know?  From a vet tech standpoint, you are a substrate loser.
> 
> .



It's about to go down!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Gouzman (10-12-2015)

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## DVirginiana

That is easily the most terrifying picture I've seen in a long time...

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Citrus (03-19-2015)

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## 200xth

*deleted because I may have misread something*

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## Skiploder

> *deleted because I may have misread something*


I would expect a complete lack of reading comprehension from someone misguided enough to use pine.

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_200xth_ (03-16-2015),_Viol8r_ (03-18-2015)

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## 200xth

> I would expect a complete lack of reading comprehension from someone misguided enough to use pine.


Careful.  You're gonna end up being cited as a source for pine being dangerous to snakes.

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## Citrus

Derailed threads are interesting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Black Hills Reptiles (03-16-2015)

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## Skiploder

> Careful.  You're gonna end up being cited as a source for pine being dangerous to snakes.


I've moved on.  

I use sand paper and glass.  No more shedding issues.

I dare you to google it...no bad reviews so it must be good.

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_200xth_ (03-16-2015),ballpythonluvr (03-16-2015),IsmQui718 (03-19-2015),_O'Mathghamhna_ (01-24-2016),salt (03-17-2015),stealthclown (03-16-2015),_Viol8r_ (03-18-2015)

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## Lizardlicks

Jeez guys, I look away for 5 minutes...  :Confused:

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anicatgirl (03-17-2015),Citrus (03-16-2015),_Viol8r_ (03-18-2015)

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## shaneswife828

To all the people acting rude, I was by no means being rude. I was simply giving my opinion based on experience as well as the medical aspect. As far as poking fun at the errors in my post my ipad tends to like to autocorrect things into totally different words. Yes I said repricarpet. For people that have only one or two reptiles reptile carpet is a good substrate. It's easy to clean and reusable And some people don't like the look of paper towels or newspaper. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I have worked with and owned reptiles for over 20 years so I am by no means a noob nor am I dumb. You may have used pine for years without problems but for most the use of pine does cause issues. Pine has a chemical in it that when wet especially can cause respritory issues and issues with irritation of the scales. The facetious comments are by no means needed. We are all hear for a common reason and that is to help people by giving them advice based on experience and education. I am sure the OP will do what they feel best and use the advice they feel is best suited for them, the snake, and their situation.

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_python_addict_ (03-16-2015)

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## Albert Clark

> Careful.  You're gonna end up being cited as a source for pine being dangerous to snakes.


Well thanks to both you (200xth) and Skiploder I have had a really good laugh today! Isn't that what we all should be doing? Having a good laugh. Seriously. Thanks again!   :Good Job:

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Black Hills Reptiles (03-16-2015)

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## John1982

> You may have used pine for years without problems but for most the use of pine does cause issues. Pine has a chemical in it that when wet especially can cause respritory issues and issues with irritation of the scales.


Next time I trek through some pine woods after a good downpour I'll remind all the herps I find that they oughta be more irritated.  :Razz:

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_O'Mathghamhna_ (01-24-2016)

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## Skiploder

> To all the people acting rude, I was by no means being rude. I was simply giving my opinion based on experience as well as the medical aspect. As far as poking fun at the errors in my post my ipad tends to like to autocorrect things into totally different words. Yes I said repricarpet. For people that have only one or two reptiles reptile carpet is a good substrate. It's easy to clean and reusable And some people don't like the look of paper towels or newspaper. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I have worked with and owned reptiles for over 20 years so I am by no means a bube nor am I dumb. You may have used pine for years without problems but for most the use of pine does cause issues. Pine has a chemical in it that when wet especially can cause respritory issues and issues with irritation of the scales. The facetious comments are by no means needed. We are all hear for a common reason and that is to help people by giving them advice based on experience and education. I am sure the OP will do what they feel best and use the advice they feel is best suited for them, the snake, and their situation.


Rude?

Please.  Your quote:




> Any "good" reptile owner will tell you to avoid pine at all cost


My "facetious" comment was in response to your rude, insulting and presumptive one.  You have just called out a lot of experienced reptile owners as being the opposite of "good".  

Help me out with that - what is the opposite of good?  Wanna wager on how may people on here you just slapped in the face?  A couple of Moderators?  Moderatrixes?  A couple of keepers and big breeders with decades of experience....?

ReptiCarpet....... :ROFL:

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## Skiploder

> Next time I trek through some pine woods after a good downpour I'll remind all the herps I find that they oughta be more irritated.


Those stupid _pituophis ruthveni_ living their entire lives in longleaf pine savannahs....

You know, those long leaf pine forests that are so rich in flora and fauna.  Guess the Rat Lady, the Bunny Babe, the Gerbil Goddess and all the other people who draw incorrect conclusions about fairly complex  hepatic data have never visited one.....

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John1982 (03-18-2015)

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## shaneswife828

Ad I stated I was by no means being rude. I was simply coming from a veterinary background. When I said "good" it was in quotes not to belittle anyone but to use a common phrase. I didn't want to say that anyone with reptile knowledge, or common sense was dumb If they used it. As far as about trekking through the woods. Pine shavings are by no means like pine needles. The milling process brings out the chemicals much more. Have you ever put up a Christmas tree and itched from it afterwards? That was caused likely by the chemical irritant I am referring too. Just as you shouldn't smoke, use heavy cleaners, or burn incense in the area of your reptiles because of the chemicals the same can be said about pine and cedar as they too have chemical irritants.

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## shaneswife828

by the way ask some of the greats like Brian from BHB what they think of the use of pine. I'm pretty sure in one of his YouTube shows he said pine was not recommended.

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## DVirginiana

Not to get involved in the debate of whether pine is a good substrate or not; I'm a botanist and my work centers around trees.  Yes, pines do have essential oils and resins that could probably be considered irritants, but at nowhere near the concentration that cedars do (this is one reason pines decompose so much more quickly than cedars).  I just personally wouldn't recommend pine because I've never used it.

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shaneswife828 (03-16-2015)

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## Boomerang

If pine is considered bad by so many, why use it at all when there are so many other options?

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## shaneswife828

People often use pine because it is cheaper than the alternatives. I would rather spend more on something else. I am the type that would rather pay more than take a risk.

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_se7en_ (03-16-2015)

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## DVirginiana

It's probably a more convenient option for many people and they haven't run into any problems with it.  Like I said, I don't know enough about it's effect on reptiles to really get into the debate of whether or not to use it as a substrate.

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## Skiploder

> Ad I stated I was by no means being rude. I was simply coming from a veterinary background. When I said "good" it was in quotes not to belittle anyone but to use a common phrase. I didn't want to say that anyone with reptile knowledge, or common sense was dumb If they used it. As far as about trekking through the woods. Pine shavings are by no means like pine needles. The milling process brings out the chemicals much more. Have you ever put up a Christmas tree and itched from it afterwards? That was caused likely by the chemical irritant I am referring too. Just as you shouldn't smoke, use heavy cleaners, or burn incense in the area of your reptiles because of the chemicals the same can be said about pine and cedar as they too have chemical irritants.


Have you ever visited a pine savannah?  Have you seen how some animals, Louisiana Pines, Eastern Indigos actually burrow in resinous pine litter?  Pine litter that is much more rich in phenols and resins than the heavily dried stuff sold as bedding?

So in that sense you are right, but not in the way you think....pine savannahs are much more "potent" in terms of the substances that you are ASSuming cause problems.  The dried shavings you buy as bedding have had most of the phenols and just about all of the resins removed through various drying processes.

Leave cedar, patchouli oil and all that other crap out of the argument.  We are talking about dried pine shavings sold as bedding.

Reptile Carpet.... :Pee:

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John1982 (03-18-2015)

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## shaneswife828

I have seen the problems first hand. So I am in no way "ASSuming". I have seen rabbits, rats, and other small animals come in with red bumps and half thir fur missing because of scratching so much from the pine. I have also seen snakes of many species come in with scales rubbed off their body because they had dumped their bowl of water onto the pine causing it to make the irritation so bad they rubbed against their hides and such so hard they actually rubbed scales off. Assuming would mean I was guessing and had no knowledge or experience. Because I am educated and have the knowledge and experience I would be giving an educated opinion not an assumption.

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## Skiploder

> by the way ask some of the greats like Brian from BHB what they think of the use of pine. I'm pretty sure in one of his YouTube shows he said pine was not recommended.


You are making my day.

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_George1994_ (03-19-2015),Tsanford (09-23-2015)

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## shaneswife828

cedar and pine are both sold as bedding. Cigarettes and alcohol are both sold also so because they can be purchased that must mean they are healthy Too. So by your thoughts anything sold for pets and people is "healthy or safe for use and consuption?

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## Skiploder

> I have seen the problems first hand. So I am in no way "ASSuming". I have seen rabbits, rats, and other small animals come in with red bumps and half thir fur missing because of scratching so much from the pine. I have also seen snakes of many species come in with scales rubbed off their body because they had dumped their bowl of water onto the pine causing it to make the irritation so bad they rubbed against their hides and such so hard they actually rubbed scales off. Assuming would mean I was guessing and had no knowledge or experience. Because I am educated and have the knowledge and experience I would be giving an educated opinion not an assumption.



Brian Barczyk apparently recommends pine on his Twitter feed.  For ball pythons no less!  Did you ask me the BHB question because you had knowledge or were you making an ASSUmption?

Want me to ask some of the other "greats"?

Want me to ask if they've seen any scales rubbed off on hides because of pine?  

Say "Reptile Carpet" for me.....one more time.  

Tell me how good it is......

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Forgotten (02-04-2018)

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## Skiploder

> cedar and pine are both sold as bedding. Cigarettes and alcohol are both sold also so because they can be purchased that must mean they are healthy Too. So by your thoughts anything sold for pets and people is "healthy or safe for use and consuption?


You're going off the rails and are now stretching and reaching, stretching and reaching.  The BHB gambit failed so we're now talking about cigarettes and alcohol?

BHB has weighed in.  He apparently recommends pine but not repti-carpet.   :Wink:

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_George1994_ (03-19-2015)

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## shaneswife828

I was not saying repticarpet isf good. I said it's an option some will use when they have only one or two reptiles. You can call and ask a 100 people and I believe more would recommend against using pine. As far as BHB I seen a snake bytes episode where he mentions that pine is not a recommended substrate. If I wasn't on my phone and wasn't business cooking I would find the link. I have a feeling ur the type of person who thinks they are always right. Apparently someone who went to school and has veterinary knowledge is still way stupider than you could ever be. I am done with this post. I have better things to do than argue with the likes of you. I have kids to care for and rescue animals to tend too(yes my dumb ass has rescue animals and has saved hundreds of animals lives what a shock). To the OP good luck with your scaled baby and do what you feel is best. Don't let anyone bully you into doing what you feel is wrong.

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## 200xth

> If pine is considered bad by so many, why use it at all when there are so many other options?


Why do so many consider it bad?  What experience do they have with it?

I use it because it works well, it's readily available, and my snakes do well on it.

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## Skiploder

> Why do so many consider it bad?  What experience do they have with it?
> 
> I use it because it works well, it's readily available, and my snakes do well on it.


That's it.

I'm done with you.

What the heck was this thread even about?

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## 200xth

> That's it.
> 
> I'm done with you.
> 
> What the heck was this thread even about?


Shouldn't you be misting your BP tank with the sandpaper and glass shard bedding.  It's gotta be tough keeping that humidity up.

Someone found a snake and wasn't sure what to do with it.

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_O'Mathghamhna_ (01-24-2016)

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## SKO

> What the heck was this thread even about?


Reptile carpet I think.

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_200xth_ (03-16-2015),Forgotten (02-04-2018)

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## Skiploder

> Reptile carpet I think.


Got it

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## python_addict

This thread was definitely hijacked...and I just read through it stupidly.....but glad something was figures out for the snake.....sorry to the OP for the nonsense.

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## WarriorPrincess90

Even though your thread was derailed over a completely petty argument, I am very glad to hear the snake has found a good home. Thank you for caring about that animal's life and doing what you could to help, even if you were afraid. It speaks volumes.  :Good Job:

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## Mr. Misha

> This thread was definitely hijacked...and I just read through it stupidly.....but glad something was figures out for the snake.....sorry to the OP for the nonsense.


Seriously... I'm never going to get two minutes of my life on reading that crap... 

To the OP, thanks for the update on the snake! Maybe this was meant to be your way of getting into the BP world.  :Smile:  Anyways, welcome and I hope at least one day you'll be able to get over your fear (which really doesn't seem like you have) and get one of your own. Oh and we apologize for the bickering. Usually most people have more common sense than that.

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## se7en

i like ice cream! :Taz:

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## Chkadii

> I've moved on.  
> 
> I use sand paper and glass.  No more shedding issues.
> 
> I dare you to google it...no bad reviews so it must be good.


Trade secret: use fiberglass insulation,  it's nice and fluffy for burrowing and it really holds the heat well! 


In all seriousness though,  OP: you did an amazing job and that little snake has you to thank for saving its life.   Not many people show such compassion and dedication for things that scare them.  It's sad to see him go,  but if you get really interested in reptiles you'll be able to enjoy them at your own pace.   With any luck maybe your cousin will even give back the little guy you rescued!  Don't let the disagreements in this thread detract from how you handled things.   You owe yourself a hearty pat on the back!

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## Viol8r

> Hi everyone
> 
> I no longer have the snake. We called up my cousin this morning, the one I mentioned in the first post who used to have a ball python (I guess still has some of them). He is a few hours out but he agreed to come down and take a look after school so he met me at my house. He said it is a normal ball python and looked decent and is probably young but he said the breathing sounded bad and he would need a vet visit, and that was why he was probably put outside beause he is sick. Mom did not want to pay to take him to the vet so my cousin offered to take him and give him a home, he has a few others and said he would be brought to the vet and kept separate from the other snakes until he is better. He said he has most of the necessary things but will pick up what else he needs from the pet store on his way home.
> 
> He showed me some pictures of his snakes, he has gotten a few more since I remember last. he says they are all ball pythons but he called one a clown snake? It was really pretty. He has three total, four including the new one. I wont lie I am a little bit sad, I am afraid of snakes but I kind of liked him he was very curious and I was kind of warming up to him, I even petted him goodbye a little bit before they left.
> 
> Thank you for your help anyways, though. Maybe I will stick around and learn some more and get one of my own some day.


Although I often enjoy the banter on here, I didn't really find this the time or place for it. 4-5 pages were definitely not needed for a NEW, YOUNGER member to our forum. Despite the back and forth, I'm pretty sure everyone on here is happy you took the time and had the caring heart to help a creature so far out of its element. Thank you for the update!

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AdrianAlexander (01-24-2016)

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## John1982

AliceE, I'm glad you were able to find a good home for the snake. To those complaining about derailment, wasted time, etc.. AliceE asked for advice on how to setup a snake. Their was a conflict of opinion on a discussion forum. I'm not sure what you were expecting if not a... discussion?

Seems to me the original poster would have been interested in hearing the reasoning behind differing opinions in regards to bedding adequacy. Besides a few outlying posts I think the thread stayed pretty on topic and pertinent. Fie on folks for trying to take a bit of dull out of a dullard in the process. I doubt it would have gone so far if the antagonist hadn't thrown the first "veiled" insult. 

On one side we have several keepers with many years worth of experience keeping snakes on pine. I'm also sure many here have observed the abundance of thriving reptiles in pine forests.

Then we have "credentials" with zero firsthand experience preaching the gospel. Seemingly fond of regurgitating outdated nonsense that's been recycled since antiquity without question. It wouldn't surprise me if it all started with some "pioneer" keeping a snake on shredded fat lighter with a turpentine filled water dish.

If there was any part of the pine antagonist's argument that wasn't dealt with I'm sure they'd still be here posting away. I think we all can agree now that pine is fine, why else would it rhyme? -TM

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_200xth_ (03-19-2015),_O'Mathghamhna_ (01-24-2016)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Help me out with that - what is the opposite of good?  Wanna wager on how may people on here you just slapped in the face?  A couple of Moderators?  *Moderatrixes?*  A couple of keepers and big breeders with decades of experience....?
> 
> ReptiCarpet.......


I like the sound of this 

And yes Pine is fine but what do I know, I am not part of the great ones

Anyway now back to your regular programming with your own Spin off  :Good Job:

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dr del (03-19-2015),_George1994_ (03-19-2015)

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## Viol8r

My cornsnake thrive in pine, but my bp's are on paper... Mostly due to them (corns) being on display, since their needs aren't as delicate.

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## wilomn

> People often use pine because it is cheaper than the alternatives. I would rather spend more on something else. I am the type that would rather pay more than take a risk.


Hey, next time you're at the right hand of the guy who's supposed to be upstairs, tell him the hubris is a bit cloying, whouldja?

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_O'Mathghamhna_ (01-24-2016)

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## wilomn

> I have seen the problems first hand. So I am in no way "ASSuming". I have seen rabbits, rats, and other small animals come in with red bumps and half thir fur missing because of scratching so much from the pine. I have also seen snakes of many species come in with scales rubbed off their body because they had dumped their bowl of water onto the pine causing it to make the irritation so bad they rubbed against their hides and such so hard they actually rubbed scales off. Assuming would mean I was guessing and had no knowledge or experience. Because I am educated and have the knowledge and experience I would be giving an educated opinion not an assumption.


Bullsnot. I think you have Pinocchio envy.

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## Daniel.michelle

(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FPq165j9DgY if you don't know what that's from)

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## Skiploder

> This thread was definitely hijacked...and I just read through it stupidly.....but glad something was figures out for the snake.....sorry to the OP for the nonsense.


Sorry that you read stupidly....your words, not mine.

I can go monosyllabic on future posts if it makes you read less stupidly.  However you decide, I'll be glad to oblige.




> Oh and we apologize for the bickering. Usually most people have more common sense than that.


Who's we?  

Did you finally name your right hand?

Or is this the "royal" we?

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## AllThatInThemGenes

Some salty people! Reading through this post was a waste of time but in all honesty that was my goal in the middle of the work day. I don't want to be part of the problem...(using the site for reasons it was not intended for)...but I can't lie




> Brian Barczyk apparently recommends pine on his Twitter feed.  For ball pythons no less!  Did you ask me the BHB question because you had knowledge or were you making an ASSUmption?
> 
> Want me to ask some of the other "greats"?
> 
> Want me to ask if they've seen any scales rubbed off on hides because of pine?  
> 
> Say "Reptile Carpet" for me.....one more time.  
> 
> Tell me how good it is......


That was kind of funny.

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## O'Mathghamhna

> sorry that you read stupidly....your words, not mine.
> 
> I can go monosyllabic on future posts if it makes you read less stupidly.  However you decide, i'll be glad to oblige.
> 
> 
> 
> Who's we?  
> 
> Did you finally name your right hand?
> ...


The "royal" we, man!!!

Careful, there's a beverage here!!!

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## O'Mathghamhna

On a serious note, I thought coconut substrate wasn't ideal for BPs because it gets trapped in their labial pits??

Hehe... labia...

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## Slim

ANYONE who doesn't keep their BP's exclusively on indented kraft paper should be investigated for animal cruelty... Then all their snakes should be sent to me (at previous owners expense) for proper husbandry.  

 :Snake:  :Razz:  :Salute:

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_O'Mathghamhna_ (01-24-2016)

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