# Boas > General Boas >  none locallity specific bci morp list

## BFE Pets

My attempt at a bci morph list. I am not including the localities unless it is purtnent to a specific morph type. i.e. T+ lines.
Also If there's only one in the world at the moment I am not including it until it is a proven morph. 
please feel free to correct or add anything I may have missed! Please if you add a combo morph name give the genetic make up! 


Proven Single Gene:

Albino (T-) Kahl line (Recessive)
Albino (T-) Sharp line (Recessive)
Albino (T-) Sonoran locatlity (Recessive)
Amber (Co-Dom)
Anerythristic- Colombian AKA Type 1 Anery (Recessive)
Anerythristic-Central American AKA type 2 Anery (Recessive)
Anerythristic - Black Eyed (Recessive)
Anerythristic - Silver Bullet (Recessive)
Arabesque (Dominant)
Azabache AKA IMG (co-Dom)
Aztec (Co-Dom)
Black (Recessive)
Blood (Recessive)
Caramel-Albino (T+) Central American complex (Recessive)
	*Costa Rican T+
	*Honduran T+
	*Nicaraguan T+
Caramel-Albino (T+) Colombian Complex (Recessive)
	*Caramel-hypo T+ AKA Boa Woman Hypo/T+/Caramel
	*Prodigy T+
	*VPI T+
	*Blond T+
Chaos (Dominant)
Cyclone (Co-Dom)
**Harlequin (Polygenic)
***Hypo (Co-Dom)
*Hog Island
Inca (Dominant) 
Jaguar (Recessive)
Jungle (Co-Dom)
Key West (Dominant until proven otherwise)
Labyrinth (Co-Dom)
Leopard (Recessive)
Marron (Co-Dom)
*Motley: Central American (Co-Dom)
*Motley: Colombian (Co-Dom)
Mayan (Dominant until proven otherwise)
Nova (Co-Dom)
Onyx (Co-Dom)
**Pastel (Polygenic)
Raptor (Co-Dom)
Reverse Stripe (Recessive)
Roswell Laddertail (Co-Dom)
Scoria (Dominant)
Square Tail (Recessive)
Striped Tail (Recessive)
Super Stripe (Recessive)

* indicates individual lines/Traits and are not known to be compatable or further breeding trials are needed to prove out compatability
** a note on pastel lines and Harlequins. there are Several lines of proven pastels all of which should be compatable however more breeding trials are needed at this 
   time. these mutations are probable polygenic and breeding a pastel to a normal will not result in pastels. however breeding the offspring back to the pastel or 
   siblings normally will result in those offspring being pastel in appearance. 
*** Hypomelanistic boas There are several lines of hypos including some locality specific I.E. Hog Island. 

Named Double Gene / Supers:

CA Ghost (Type 2 Anery + Hypo)
Chocolate AKA Super Amber (Amber + Amber)
Crystal (Labyrinth + Labyrinth)
Ghost (Type 1Anery + Hypo)
Het Sunset (Hypo + Hog Island Hypo)
Hytec (Aztec + Hypo)
Motleybesque (Motley + Arabesque)
Mystic (Het Sharp Albino + Het Blond T+
Paradigm (Het Sharp Albino + Het Caramel-Hypo)
Pewter (Type 2 Anery + Blood)
Roswell (Roswell Ladder Tail + Roswell Ladder Tail)
Sharp Snow (Sharp Albino + Type 1 Anerythristic)
Sharp Sunglow (Sharp Albino + Hypo)
Snow (Kahl Albino + Anerythristic)
Sunglow (Kahl Albino + Hypo)
Super Azabache
Super Aztec
Super Cyclone
Super Hypo
Super Jungle
Super Marron
Super Motley
Super Nova 
Super Onyx 
Super Raptor

Named Triple Gene combos:

Avalanche (Kahl Albino + Anerythristic + Arabesque)
Artic (Anery + Het-Sharp Albino + Het caramel-hypo)
Bloody Ghost (Type 2 Anery + Hypo + Blood)
Junglow (Kahl Albino + Hypo + Jungle)
Moonglow (Kahl Albino + Type 1 Anerythristic + Hypo)
Paraglow (Het Sharp Albino + Het Caramel-Hypo + Hypo)
Snow-Glow (Sharp Albino + Hypo + type 1 Anery)
Sunset (Hypo + Hypo + Hog Island)

Named Quad + Gene combos:

Artic Glow (Anery + Het Sharp Albino + Het Caramel-hypo + Hypo)
Albino Sunrise (Kahl Albino + Hypo + Hypo + Hog Island Hypo)
Bloody Sunset (Blood + Hypo + Hypo + Hog Island Hypo)
Bloody Sunrise (Blood + Kahl Albino + Hypo + Hypo + Hog Island Hypo)

Thanks for looking and feel free to add to the list as things are proven of discovered!

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_Evenstar_ (03-01-2013),Foschi Exotic Serpents (03-03-2013),_jben_ (03-03-2013),Konotashi (06-20-2013),mattj8501 (05-14-2013),_swansonbb_ (03-01-2013)

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## Evenstar

I would also suggest that if you add something to this list, if you insert it directly into the list, please highlight it so H.o.F.R can see what was changed!   :Good Job: 

Thank you again for doing this Damon!!  We are on our way to a World of Boa Constrictos genetics calculator!! LoL.....   :Very Happy:

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_BFE Pets_ (03-01-2013)

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## BFE Pets

> I would also suggest that if you add something to this list, if you insert it directly into the list, please highlight it so H.o.F.R can see what was changed! 
> 
> thats a great Idea! thanks!
> 
> Thank you again for doing this Damon!!  We are on our way to a World of Boa Constrictos genetics calculator!! LoL.....


Imo I've done the easy part! theres another forum member thats gonna actually do the hard part and thats make the calculator. I'll let him announce himself.

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## Evenstar

I know - I figured I'd let him introduce himself too, lol.  Then we can give him thanks too!   :Very Happy:

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## BFE Pets

Weird. I would have thought more people would have been interested in this kind of info.... shrugs.... Im still happy about it.  :Dancin' Banana:

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## ewaldrep

I have been back to the thread several times! Thanks for the hard work!

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_BFE Pets_ (03-03-2013),_Evenstar_ (03-03-2013)

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## Evenstar

> Weird. I would have thought more people would have been interested in this kind of info.... shrugs.... Im still happy about it.


I know what you mean!  I wonder if folks don't realize what we plan to DO with this list....


Guys, we are making an attempt to create a genetics calculator for boas like the one for BPs at WOBP!!  Any help to finalize the list would be most appreciated!  

A couple wonderful individuals are collaborating to make this possible - H.o.F.R. is putting the list of morphs together and OWAL Reptiles is also a computer guru and is taking care of writing the program to calculate odds.  He will introduce himself here shortly and the program is in the works as we speak - it will be published as soon as its done. 

I am super excited about this project - punnet squares are a pain in the butt for me and I'm sure it is for others, too, considering how many folks use the calculator at WOBP.  I hope you all feel the same and will get a lot of use from this!   :Good Job:

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_OsirisRa32_ (03-06-2013),_Valentine Pirate_ (03-03-2013)

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## jben

This is awesome!!!  :Very Happy: 

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_BFE Pets_ (03-03-2013)

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## jben

I added hypo jungle, but not sure how to highlight on tapatalk.




> My attempt at a bci morph list. I am not including the localities unless it is purtnent to a specific morph type. i.e. T+ lines.
> Also If there's only one in the world at the moment I am not including it until it is a proven morph. 
> please feel free to correct or add anything I may have missed! Please if you add a combo morph name give the genetic make up! 
> 
> 
> Proven Single Gene:
> 
> Albino (T-) Kahl line (Recessive)
> Albino (T-) Sharp line (Recessive)
> ...




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_BFE Pets_ (03-03-2013),_Evenstar_ (03-03-2013)

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## Valentine Pirate

Very exciting! Keep us updated! A boa calculator/morph list will be very helpful. I have a fuzzy idea of boa morphs, but it'll be so nice to have pictures and reference (especially between the different lines of albino/anery, I have a hard time with those)

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_Evenstar_ (03-03-2013)

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## tlich

This is going to be great and very helpful, thanks to everyone working on it!

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_BFE Pets_ (03-03-2013)

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## OhhWatALoser

> Guys, we are making an attempt to create a genetics calculator for boas like the one for BPs at WOBP!!  Any help to finalize the list would be most appreciated!


I already learned most people don't care lol.


I'm waiting on getting approved at the rtb forum so I can get a few things cleared up, then should be able to release it.

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_BFE Pets_ (03-03-2013),_Evenstar_ (03-03-2013),tlich (03-03-2013)

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## Evenstar

> Very exciting! Keep us updated! A boa calculator/morph list will be very helpful. I have a fuzzy idea of boa morphs, but it'll be so nice to have pictures and reference (*especially between the different lines of albino/anery, I have a hard time with those*)


Me too - especially the anerys!!   :Good Job: 





> I already learned most people don't care lol.
> 
> 
> I'm waiting on getting approved at the rtb forum so I can get a few things cleared up, then should be able to release it.



Well, we care!!  I know what you mean though.  A lot of the long-term boa people really don't put much stock into a genetics calculator.  The subject has been broached before, but it's been shot down every time until now.  I am glad you are moving forward with it despite a lackluster response.  I think it'll be very helpful to newer and younger boa folks.  And just like in the rest of the community, we need to cultivate new people!   :Good Job: 

....And I'm sure we'll be "clearing things up" for a while, lol!  There are a lot of current and new genes that we still do not fully understand.  Hope you can do revisions easily once it's published!   :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:

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## Rage Beard Reptiles

I care and really cant wait for it to be up and running! Kuddos to you guys for taking the time and effort to do something like this. I have looked for a RTB genetics calc and I don't think one exists, so this will awesome!

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_BFE Pets_ (03-04-2013),_Evenstar_ (03-03-2013)

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## OhhWatALoser

> Well, we care!!  I know what you mean though.  A lot of the long-term boa people really don't put much stock into a genetics calculator.  The subject has been broached before, but it's been shot down every time until now.  I am glad you are moving forward with it despite a lackluster response.  I think it'll be very helpful to newer and younger boa folks.  And just like in the rest of the community, we need to cultivate new people!  
> 
> ....And I'm sure we'll be "clearing things up" for a while, lol!  There are a lot of current and new genes that we still do not fully understand.  Hope you can do revisions easily once it's published!


I'm sure boas can't touch the rapid progression of ball pythons lol, yea its easily revised  :Smile: 

Well it's been 24 hours and no one has even answered one of my questions on the boa forum. So I guess it will be released as is for now. 

So I ran across this, which answers one of my questions. http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forum...stic-boas.html The mystic boa is not just a sharp+blond as only a few in the clutch were the mystic. Something else unknown is going on, unlike the paradigm.

Well I guess we can call it a beta now, I *think* it works correctly, lemme know:

http://www.owalreptiles.com/boagenetics.php

*Male:*
Hypo, Motley

*Female:*
Arabesque, Hypo

*Percent*
*Fraction*
*Traits*

12.5%
1/8
Motleybesque

12.5%
1/8
Motley

12.5%
1/8
Hypo, Motleybesque

12.5%
1/8
Hypo, Motley

12.5%
1/8
Arabesque, Hypo

12.5%
1/8
Hypo

12.5%
1/8
Super Hypo, Arabesque

12.5%
1/8
Super Hypo

View Results Page

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## Evenstar

One thing I noticed just now is that you have "Hog Island" listed under Unproven Dominant.

Hogs are not a gene - they are a locality.  We should take that out.   :Good Job: 


Looks like it works great!!  You are amazing!  Thank you so much for spending the time to put this together - as a boa breeder, I am very appreciative of all the work that went into this.  It will be extremely helpful for me and many others, I am sure!   :Very Happy:

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## OhhWatALoser

That was one of the things I asked about, how does the whole hog island hypo work, it sounded like it was its own line of hypo. Because in removing that, then we have to remove bloody sunrise, albino sunrise, bloody sunset. If it isn't a gene, they how the heck are they coming up with combo names for it? lol

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## Evenstar

Oh!  Gotcha.  Why don't you add hypo to it then - call it "Hog Island Hypo" instead of just Hog Island.  Because I can see others getting confused about that one, lol.....   :Good Job: 



And this may be why this hasn't been attempted before.  It's not quite as straight forward and BP genetics.....   :Wink:

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_BFE Pets_ (03-04-2013)

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## OhhWatALoser

fixed  :Smile:

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_BFE Pets_ (03-04-2013)

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## Kensa

Wow, looks like you guys have put a lot of time into this. I am sure it will be useful and people will take it for granted in the future  :Very Happy:

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_BFE Pets_ (03-04-2013)

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## jben

> And this may be why this hasn't been attempted before.  It's not quite as straight forward and BP genetics.....


X 2 
Thank you OhhWatALoser for taking the time to create this calculator


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## BFE Pets

> That was one of the things I asked about, how does the whole hog island hypo work, it sounded like it was its own line of hypo. Because in removing that, then we have to remove bloody sunrise, albino sunrise, bloody sunset. If it isn't a gene, they how the heck are they coming up with combo names for it? lol


Things like that is why it took me nearly a month to compile the list. Lol. But yea hog island hypo is its own distinct line of hypo. I should have put it that way on the list. Sorry for the confusion.

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## ewaldrep

I just thought about Keltic, I have seen pics of the morph but no idea about the genes involved. I think Jeff Ronne may have produced it.

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_BFE Pets_ (03-04-2013)

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## BFE Pets

> I just thought about Keltic, I have seen pics of the morph but no idea about the genes involved. I think Jeff Ronne may have produced it.


Thank you ill look into it!

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## BFE Pets

keltic boa research complete. It is just a breeder in the Czech republics own line of arabesque. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I hadn't ever heard of it. It has been on the market since at least 2010.

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## jben

> Things like that is why it took me nearly a month to compile the list. Lol. But yea hog island hypo is its own distinct line of hypo. I should have put it that way on the list. Sorry for the confusion.


Hog island boas are naturally hypomelanistics but they are not a line of hypo. They are a type locality boa.  :Very Happy: 

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## BFE Pets

> Hog island boas are naturally hypomelanistics but they are not a line of hypo. They are a type locality boa. 
> 
> Sent from my EVO Design using Tapatalk 2.


Think about what you are saying. Not trying to be rude but all hog island boas are hypo. That particular locality is a stain of hypo that is not found anywhere but in that locale. It is not compatible with any other type of hypo, hence sunset boa, bloody sunset, etc. We understand that hog island boas are a locality. The hypomelanisim that they have is its own line of hypo. Sorta like salmons are all hypo. You can have a hypo that's not salmon but you can't have a salmon that isn't a hypo. Same goes for hog islands.

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## jben

> Think about what you are saying. Not trying to be rude but all hog island boas are hypo. That particular locality is a stain of hypo that is not found anywhere but in that locale. It is not compatible with any other type of hypo, hence sunset boa, bloody sunset, etc. We understand that hog island boas are a locality. The hypomelanisim that they have is its own line of hypo. Sorta like salmons are all hypo. You can have a hypo that's not salmon but you can't have a salmon that isn't a hypo. Same goes for hog islands.


I have a lot of respect for you so I don't think you are being rude my friend. I'm a big believer in that salmon saying :Very Happy:   but I look at hogs differently since they're a locality and not a "morph". I don't think they should be crossed since they're from a different locality and they're beauty. Actually I think they shouldn't be classified as BCI, hogs should've had they're own classification just like pearls but that's just my humble opinion. :Very Happy:  I'll agree to disagree :Very Happy: 

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_BFE Pets_ (03-05-2013)

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## Evenstar

> I have a lot of respect for you so I don't think you are being rude my friend. I'm a big believer in that salmon saying  but I look at hogs differently since they're a locality and not a "morph". I don't think they should be crossed since they're from a different locality and they're beauty. Actually I think they shouldn't be classified as BCI, hogs should've had they're own classification just like pearls but that's just my humble opinion. I'll agree to disagree
> 
> Sent from my EVO Design using Tapatalk 2.


I have a lot of respect for both of you!!  This is a good debate among friends...   :Very Happy: 

I agree with this ^^.  However, to be clear, Hogs are not technically _all_ hypomelanistic.  There are Hogs and there are Hypo Hogs - which are referred to as Sunsets.  Hogs do have lighter coloration, but when the hypo gene is added, they are then referred to as Sunset Hogs.

Personally, I think maybe we should take out the "Hog Island Hypo" choice on the calculator.  Partly since Hogs are a specific locality and we aren't including localities, but also because hypomelanism in Hogs is the same hypo gene in BCIs in general.  It is, in fact, compatable with the hypo/salmon gene.  Therefore, this choice is actually redundant.

Hope that made sense.....  LoL!!

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_BFE Pets_ (03-05-2013)

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## BFE Pets

> Actually I think they shouldn't be classified as BCI, hogs should've had they're own classification just like pearls but that's just my humble opinion.
> 
> Sent from my EVO Design using Tapatalk 2.


I agree with this! however it has already been done and I cant stop it from happening again. if that were the case this discussion would be moot.




> I have a lot of respect for both of you!!  This is a good debate among friends...  
> 
> I agree with this ^^.  However, to be clear, Hogs are not technically _all_ hypomelanistic.  There are Hogs and there are Hypo Hogs - which are referred to as Sunsets.  Hogs do have lighter coloration, but when the hypo gene is added, they are then referred to as Sunset Hogs.
> I partially agree. From what I've seen true hog island boas are all hypo. if its not hypo its not a pure hog island. also hypo + hog island doesn't make a sunet. hypo + the natural occurring hypo of a hog island boa makes what is called a het sunset. a sunset boa is hypo + hypo + the naturally occurring hypo found only in hog island boas. so to be a sunset boa it has to be a super hypo + hog island hypo.
> 
> Personally, I think maybe we should take out the "Hog Island Hypo" choice on the calculator.  Partly since Hogs are a specific locality and we aren't including localities, but also because hypomelanism in Hogs is the same hypo gene in BCIs in general.  It is, in fact, compatable with the hypo/salmon gene.  Therefore, this choice is actually redundant.
> 
> Hope that made sense.....  LoL!!


This is where we disagree I feel the hog island hypo needs to be in the calculator as it is NOT the same hypo gene found in any other bci. Hog Island boas are a locality. cant argue that. if in fact the hog island hypo and hypo are the same then when you bred a het sunset to a normal all of the offspring should be hypo. because by your explanation they are the same which means a het sunset is in fact just a super hypo 50% hog island locality boa. so all of the offspring would be hypo. can we agree to that? if we can then the naturally occurring hypomelanistic gene found in the hog island boa has to be its own strain and has to be identified separately. Because the breeding trial that I could find did not produce 100% hypo offspring when breeding a het sunset x normal Colombian.  

If anyone has other information that I can look into i'd be happy to change my mind and conform to the mass opinion. But until then I have to stick to my guns on this. I spent 3 or so days trying to get a definitive answer to this exact question and could only get one breeding trial and honestly it is from a friend that exports exotics out of panama. its the same friend that has helped me plan my family vacation this summer to coasta rica to go stomp the jungle for wc boas.

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## BFE Pets

after thought.... I have no evidence that the salmon and hypo found in hog island boas are compatible. I can only go by the info that I've found. which says other wise. however I am willing to say this. it is possible that they are allelic sitting on the same locus but not necessarily compatible. idk its making my head hurt. lol Ive pleaded my case i'll let owal decide if he wants to leave it in the calculator.

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## Evenstar

> However, to be clear, Hogs are not technically all hypomelanistic. There are Hogs and there are Hypo Hogs - which are referred to as Sunsets. Hogs do have lighter coloration, but when the hypo gene is added, they are then referred to as Sunset Hogs.
> I partially agree. From what I've seen true hog island boas are all hypo. if its not hypo its not a pure hog island. also hypo + hog island doesn't make a sunet. hypo + the natural occurring hypo of a hog island boa makes what is called a het sunset. a sunset boa is hypo + hypo + the naturally occurring hypo found only in hog island boas. so to be a sunset boa it has to be a super hypo + hog island hypo.
> 
> Personally, I think maybe we should take out the "Hog Island Hypo" choice on the calculator. Partly since Hogs are a specific locality and we aren't including localities, but also because hypomelanism in Hogs is the same hypo gene in BCIs in general. It is, in fact, compatable with the hypo/salmon gene. Therefore, this choice is actually redundant.
> 			
> 		
> 
> 
> This is where we disagree I feel the hog island hypo needs to be in the calculator as it is NOT the same hypo gene found in any other bci. Hog Island boas are a locality. cant argue that. if in fact the hog island hypo and hypo are the same then when you bred a het sunset to a normal all of the offspring should be hypo. because by your explanation they are the same which means a het sunset is in fact just a super hypo 50% hog island locality boa. so all of the offspring would be hypo. can we agree to that? if we can then the naturally occurring hypomelanistic gene found in the hog island boa has to be its own strain and has to be identified separately. Because the breeding trial that I could find did not produce 100% hypo offspring when breeding a het sunset x normal Colombian.  
> ...




***PLEASE if there are any Hog breeders out there that can difinitively clear this up - please chime in!  We are friends having a very eduactional discussion, so there is no real argument going on, but we really could use a professional to help us out on this!  We want to be able to help others and we want to make sure our genetics calculator is accurate for everyone!  Thanks!!***

Here is a teeny bit of information I've gathered over the years on Hog Islands.  I follow what you are saying and I do not necessarily disagree - in fact, I'm going to switch around and actually say I do believe you are correct.  But, anyhow, here's what I've found and this might help you understand why I'm thinking the way I am.   :Good Job: 

I will ALSO concede up front that Hog Islands are, in fact, all hypos - according to Marc Norrie, they are a "naturally occurring form of hypomelanism".  

The following is found on Marc Norrie's site, Selective Bred Reptiles, http://www.selectivebred.com/collectiondt.asp?ID=11
"Hypo Hogs are produced by breeding a hypo melanistic Boa to a Hog Island Boa. As Hog Island Boas are a naturaly occuring Hypomelanistic locale, when combined with the Hypo morph you get an exaggerated hypo appearance in the offspring. This can then be taken one step further by breeding them together to produce the stunning Sunset Boa, which is effectively a super Hypo Hog."

This does, however, suggest that the "hog hypo" IS compatable with the hypo gene in other BCIs - "As Hog Island Boas are a naturaly occuring Hypo melanistic locale, when combined with the Hypo morph you get an exaggerated hypo appearance in the offspring."

I have since found a thread on redtailboas.com that has a discussion about this very topic.  I believe they are proving your point, Damon!  Here is the link.  But I am going to agree with you totally on this:  this is all making my head hurt...........  This is a perfect example of why a genetics calculator for boas has not been attempted until now!!!  LoL....

http://www.redtailboas.com/f17/sunse...nd-boas-17183/  It's a little hard to read, but if you scroll down a little and you'll find where they begin talking about the hypo gene itself.

So I think we should, in fact, leave "Hog Island Hypo" on the calculator.  I am sure we'll be tweaking it a lot as we go along.  All we can do at the moment is the best we can with what we have - and we've done very well so far indeed!!   :Good Job:

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_BFE Pets_ (03-05-2013)

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## BFE Pets

Thank you evenstar! I wasn't trying to argue but just wanted everyone to know I did my homework and took the subject very serious. I wouldn't want to just half-a$$ed anything and put it out there. I even spent an hour on the phone to a breeder in Panama trying to figure it out. Lol honestly the hog island thing was by far the most challenging part of the whole list. Well so far LOL. Hopefully it stays that way and just needs minor tweaks from her out. Thank you all for any input weather or not I agree.

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## Evenstar

> Thank you evenstar! I wasn't trying to argue but just wanted everyone to know I did my homework and took the subject very serious. I wouldn't want to just half-a$$ed anything and put it out there. I even spent an hour on the phone to a breeder in Panama trying to figure it out. Lol honestly the hog island thing was by far the most challenging part of the whole list. Well so far LOL. Hopefully it stays that way and just needs minor tweaks from her out. Thank you all for any input weather or not I agree.


Oh I knew you weren't arguing!  As I said, we're friends here having a very educational discussion - I know I learned some things today!!

You and OWAL are doing a GREAT job with this - your hard work and care in the project really shows.   :Good Job: 



And, oh geez, I sure HOPE this is the most challenging thing we have to deal with.....   :Very Happy:

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_BFE Pets_ (03-05-2013)

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## OhhWatALoser

I'm still not sure about the Hog Island thing, They say it is polygenetic, but then treat it like it's not. So far the boa forum hasn't offered much insight into this.

On the boa forum though someone mentioned the hypos you can't really tell the difference between the hypos and super hypos reliably? If this is true it fits the definition of Dominant more than co-dom/Inc-dom.

Your list of information you could put that hypo and motley appear to sit on the same locus. Also T- albino and caramel-hypo T+ albino appear to sit on their own locus.

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_BFE Pets_ (03-06-2013),_Evenstar_ (03-06-2013)

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## Evenstar

> I'm still not sure about the Hog Island thing, They say it is polygenetic, but then treat it like it's not. So far the boa forum hasn't offered much insight into this.
> 
> On the boa forum though someone mentioned the hypos you can't really tell the difference between the hypos and super hypos reliably? If this is true it fits the definition of Dominant more than co-dom/Inc-dom.
> 
> Your list of information you could put that hypo and motley appear to sit on the same locus. Also T- albino and caramel-hypo T+ albino appear to sit on their own locus.



I think co-dominanation is inconclusive with hypos.  However, a super hypo will only produce hypos - even if bred to a normal.  A regular hypo will produce a lot of hypos, but not all hypos, when bred to a normal.  This has been proven and, therefore, supports the gene being co-dominant.  However, the super form is indistinguishable from the visual het.  Hypomelanism does not produce a varient super form such as BELs in ball pythons.  You cannot tell the difference, visually, from a regular hypo and a super hypo.  The super form has to bred in order to be proven.  

Hypomelanism is widely accepted in the boa community as co-dominant.  I wouldn't worry about treating it in any other way until it is proven otherwise - and that goes for any other gene that is difficult to determine.  Of course, we want to be as accurate as possible, but there is only so much we can do with the little information we have.   :Good Job:

----------


## OhhWatALoser

> I think co-dominanation is inconclusive with hypos.  However, a super hypo will only produce hypos - even if bred to a normal.  A regular hypo will produce a lot of hypos, but not all hypos, when bred to a normal.  This has been proven and, therefore, supports the gene being co-dominant.  However, the super form is indistinguishable from the visual het.  Hypomelanism does not produce a varient super form such as BELs in ball pythons.  You cannot tell the difference, visually, from a regular hypo and a super hypo.  The super form has to bred in order to be proven.  
> 
> Hypomelanism is widely accepted in the boa community as co-dominant.  I wouldn't worry about treating it in any other way until it is proven otherwise - and that goes for any other gene that is difficult to determine.  Of course, we want to be as accurate as possible, but there is only so much we can do with the little information we have.


Its one of the misconception in the reptile world. What you describe is the exact definition of dominant. Genetic classification doesn't change the way a gene is treated, it just simply changes how it is classified. Heterozygous = 1 mutant gene (regular hypo, motley, het albino) homozygous = 2 mutant gene (super hypo, super motley,albino)


Heterozygous
Homozygous

Dominant
Visual
Same Visual

*Unproven Dominant*
Visual
?????

Co-Dom/Inc-Dom
Visual
Different Visual

Recessive
Not Visual
Visual



If the super hypo and hypo look the same, we have a dominant mutation (like pinstripe in the bps). Motley looks different with two genes vs one gene, so it is co-dom/inc-dom. albino looks normal with 1 gene, but visual with 2, so it is recessive. This classification crap is a lot easier than people think lol. As for unproven dominant, i think its a good way to describe the "dominant" traits that we haven't seen a proven super form of, basically all we know is their not recessive. I made a thread on this if you wish to read more http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...roven-dominant

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_BFE Pets_ (03-07-2013)

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## Evenstar

EXCEPT that a super hypo will ONLY produce hypos.

For example, to use a morph in BPs that we all know is proven co-dominant:

Ball Pythons

Lesser x Normal = 50% Lessers, 50% normals

Lesser x Lesser = 50% Lessers, 50% BELs

Super Lesser x normal = 100% Lessers

Super Lesser x Lesser = 100% BELs


Hypomelanism in boas works the same way - just substitute "hypo" for "lesser" in this example and you'll get the same results.  And the supers do look different than a regular hypo - they just look SO SIMILAR that it's nearly impossible to know for sure.  But a super hypo will be cleaner and brighter, more pink overall than a regular hypo.  The problem is that some regular hypos of higher quality are also very clean and bright.  It's a pain in the you-know-where.......

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_BFE Pets_ (03-07-2013)

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## jben

> EXCEPT that a super hypo will ONLY produce hypos.
> 
> For example, to use a morph in BPs that we all know is proven co-dominant:
> 
> Ball Pythons
> 
> Lesser x Normal = 50% Lessers, 50% normals
> 
> Lesser x Lesser = 50% Lessers, 50% BELs
> ...


Super Lesser x Lesser = 50% BEL's, 50% Lesser :Very Happy:  Fixed it for you :Very Happy:

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## Evenstar

> Super Lesser x Lesser = 50% BEL's, 50% Lesser Fixed it for you


ARgghh!!  Darned typos.....  Thank you.....   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Very Happy:

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## OhhWatALoser

> Lesser x Lesser = 50% Lessers, 25% BELs, 25% normal


Ill go really general....

heterozygous x Normal = 50% heterozygous, 50% normals

heterozygous x heterozygous = 50% heterozygous, 25% Homozygous, 25% normal

Homozygous x normal = 100% heterozygous

Homozygous x heterozygous = 50% Homozygous 50% heterozygous

Gene classification has nothing to do with how it works, dominant, co-dom, inc-dom, recessive, they all work exactly the same. A homozygous hypo to a normal will make all heterozygous hypos, now how the snake looks in het and homo form is what makes its classification.

I guess this would be my question, I breed a hypo to a hypo. Do offspring get sold as super hypos and hypos, with a couple unknown or are they all possible super hypos?

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## jben

> I guess this would be my question, I breed a hypo to a hypo. Do offspring get sold as super hypos and hypos, with a couple unknown or are they all possible super hypos?


All hypos would be considered possible super hypo until proven.

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## OhhWatALoser

> All hypos would be considered possible super hypo until proven.


If that's the case then what we have is a dominant morph

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_jben_ (03-08-2013)

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## OhhWatALoser

So I'm going to bring back up the issue of the hog island hypo again. Everything I read about it, it is a polygenetic trait. With that being cut and dry, we don't know how many genes and all that, actually cause the trait. So we can't really have it in the calc, since it isn't really giving out anything close to accurate answers. 

What is still throwing me off is how the heck someone can have a polygenetic trait in a combo name, I mean how the heck do you really define anything with hog island in it? 4 generations down the line after making the bloody sunrise, how can you tell me that snake is different than a super sunglow blood? How can you tell me any variation is caused by the hog island hypo vs the potentially thousands of other genes that have an effect on appearance?'

You have something undefined and use it to define something else, wth boa people?

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## Evenstar

> So I'm going to bring back up the issue of the hog island hypo again. Everything I read about it, it is a polygenetic trait. With that being cut and dry, we don't know how many genes and all that, actually cause the trait. So we can't really have it in the calc, since it isn't really giving out anything close to accurate answers. 
> 
> What is still throwing me off is how the heck someone can have a polygenetic trait in a combo name, I mean how the heck do you really define anything with hog island in it? 4 generations down the line after making the bloody sunrise, how can you tell me that snake is different than a super sunglow blood? How can you tell me any variation is caused by the hog island hypo vs the potentially thousands of other genes that have an effect on appearance?'
> 
> You have something undefined and use it to define something else, wth boa people?


I tend to agree with not having that in the calculator - at least not yet until we get some better answers.

I am unsure enough that I don't want to express a personal opinion on how the gene(s) work.  But here are a few facts to consider:

1)  I had never before heard that Hog Islands were ALL hypos until we got into this subject here - even though I do agree that their coloration is very characteristic of the hypo gene.

2)  I do know that there are normal Hogs and "Hypo Hogs".  If all Hogs are hypo, how can there then be a "Hypo Hog" that is visually different from the normal Hog??

3)  I had heard from several noted Hog breeders that a "sunset" was a hypo hog x hypo colombian.  That does not mean that there is a difference between the two hypos - what it means is that there is BOTH hog and colombian blood AND the snake is a SUPER HYPO (because both parents were hypo - but this part cannot be proven until the snake is bred.  This animal is sometimes referred to as a "possible sunset" or "het sunset" until it produces - and I HATE that "het" is used here as that is not what the word means - grrrr).

4)  There IS a super form of the hypo gene.  If both parents are hypo, 50% of the babies will be hypo, 25% will be normals, and 25% will be super hypos.  A Super Hypo in turn cannot produce anything but a hypo even if bred to a normal.  The hypos and super hypos do NOT look the same - there are very subtle differences.  The problem is that, due to the natural variations of the gene's expression, we cannot say with absolute certainty that the "possible super" will prove out until it is bred.  This is true in BOTH Hog Islands and in Colombians.

This is just food for thought.  I am going to see if I can call a couple of friends/breeders with more experience than me over the next few days and see if we can figure out just what is what.   :Good Job:

----------


## jben

> I tend to agree with not having that in the calculator - at least not yet until we get some better answers.
> 
> I am unsure enough that I don't want to express a personal opinion on how the gene(s) work.  But here are a few facts to consider:
> 
> 1)  I had never before heard that Hog Islands were ALL hypos until we got into this subject here - even though I do agree that their coloration is very characteristic of the hypo gene.
> 
> 2)  I do know that there are normal Hogs and "Hypo Hogs".  If all Hogs are hypo, how can there then be a "Hypo Hog" that is visually different from the normal Hog??
> 
> 3)  I had heard from several noted Hog breeders that a "sunset" was a hypo hog x hypo colombian.  That does not mean that there is a difference between the two hypos - what it means is that there is BOTH hog and colombian blood AND the snake is a SUPER HYPO (because both parents were hypo - but this part cannot be proven until the snake is bred.  This animal is sometimes referred to as a "possible sunset" or "het sunset" until it produces - and I HATE that "het" is used here as that is not what the word means - grrrr).
> ...


1- All the info I've read since learning of hog island boas is that they're naturally occurring hypomelanistic.

2- hypo hogs are a cross between hypo Colombian and hog island boas. You get an exaggerated hypo appearance in the offspring.

3- a sunset(super hypo hog) is a breeding of a hypo hog to a hypo hog

4- there has been plain Jane hypos from hypo to hypo breedings prove supers and really nice hypos from the same breeding not prove to be supers. So one cannot say with certainty that a hypo is a super just because it looks nicer.

 :Very Happy: 

Sent from my EVO Design using Tapatalk 2.

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## BFE Pets

ok this is my last time on the hog island subject. true hog island boas all are naturally occurring hypo. if it is not hypo it is not pure hog island cut and dry. "Het sunset = hypo + Hogg island boa (codominant x locality mutantion designer morp) The het sunset boa is a combination of a hypo boa combined with the naturally occurring hypomelanistic Hogg Island boa. (Hogg Island or Cochinos Cays is a small group of islands off the north coast of Honduras.)" "Sunset boa = hypo + hypo + Hogg Island boa (dominant x Locality mutation designer morph) also known as a super hypo/Hogg Island. The sunset-boa is a combination of the super form of the hypo boa combined with the naturally occurring hypomelanistic Hogg Island boa." those are direct quotes from the book Designer-Morphs Volume one: Ball python & Boa constrictor A guide to mutations and variations by John R Berry. I understand every ones need to have the correct information for the calculator. I want it to be accurate also. However there are things that are accepted in the reptile world as " that's just how it is". In these cases I feel that it is better to have the info there than to leave it out and consistently be called out for not having it there and thusly making it appear that something was over looked or forgotten. No matter how correct or incorrect something is if it has been adapted to be the correct term or widely used in the reptile industry as the coined term it is probably to late for us to change the way it is and we need to conform to the masses as we are probably the minority on the subject. i.e. I completely agree with owal on the whole definition of co-dom/dominant however at this time I feel it is to late to make the change to the entire herp world so I don't bother trying to explain it any differently. or the age old argument of weather or not to breed two different localities together. I personally agree that we should kept the localities and sub species pure but I am not going to tell people that they should or shouldn't do the same(if everyone did we wouldn't be having this debate). and that's my .02 cents on the subject.

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_jben_ (03-11-2013)

----------


## BFE Pets

> So I'm going to bring back up the issue of the hog island hypo again. Everything I read about it, it is a polygenetic trait. With that being cut and dry, we don't know how many genes and all that, actually cause the trait. So we can't really have it in the calc, since it isn't really giving out anything close to accurate answers. 
> 
> What is still throwing me off is how the heck someone can have a polygenetic trait in a combo name, I mean how the heck do you really define anything with hog island in it? 4 generations down the line after making the bloody sunrise, how can you tell me that snake is different than a super sunglow blood? How can you tell me any variation is caused by the hog island hypo vs the potentially thousands of other genes that have an effect on appearance?'
> 
> You have something undefined and use it to define something else, wth boa people?


so any locality trait would be polygenetic? or how about line bred traits. how does that work in say the leopard gecko calculators? 

I would believe that only the first generation of that should in fact have the name. after that the genetics are questionable and only what can be proven should be named.

and now we know why boa people don't want or feel the need for a calculator. because with one it proves they are full of crap and are just making things up as they go along. lol Im kidding but sounds logical don't it.

----------


## OhhWatALoser

> so any locality trait would be polygenetic? or how about line bred traits. how does that work in say the leopard gecko calculators? 
> 
> I would believe that only the first generation of that should in fact have the name. after that the genetics are questionable and only what can be proven should be named.
> 
> and now we know why boa people don't want or feel the need for a calculator. because with one it proves they are full of crap and are just making things up as they go along. lol Im kidding but sounds logical don't it.


Locality just basically means a trait is found in a majority of a certain population group and not another. It could be the result of 1 gene or 100 genes. If you are breeding and not seeing the simple results of a monogenetic trait (everything else on the calculator) then you really can't determine the results with any sort of accuracy, unless you knew how many genes cause it. That is cut and dry.

Even if giving the first generation the name, how do you prove anything afterwards? I'll try to explain what I have rolling through my head...
Pick a random number and say that is the amount of genes needed to cause the trait, so ill use 4, could be more, could be less. As you can see the problem already is we are already speculating.
Since it is a locality trait, chances are good those those genes homozyous. Again speculating but we will roll with it.
Hog island hypo (homozygous genes 1,2,3,4) breeds to a hypo.
50% are normal 50% are hypo and all are het hog island genes (1-4). So this is what they call a het sunset.
So now I take two of those het sunsets breed them together. 25% super hypo, 50% hypo, 20% normal, and then the chances for any of them getting the hog genes....

*Male:*
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

*Female:*
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

*Percent*
*Fraction*
*Traits*

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 4

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 1

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4

3.125%
1/32
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 1

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 1, Homozygous 3

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 3

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 1, Homozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 1, Heterozygous 4

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 1

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4

3.125%
1/32
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 2

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4

3.125%
1/32
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3

3.125%
1/32
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4

6.25%
1/16
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

3.125%
1/32
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 4

3.125%
1/32
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 2

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 3

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4

3.125%
1/32
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 3

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 1, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 1, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 1

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 3

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 3

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 2, Homozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 2, Heterozygous 4

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 2

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 3

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4

3.125%
1/32
Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 3

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 2, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 2, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 2

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 3, Homozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Homozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 3

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 3, Homozygous 4

1.5625%
1/64
Heterozygous 3, Heterozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 3

0.3906%
1/256
Homozygous 4

0.7813%
1/128
Heterozygous 4

0.3906%
1/256
Normal

View Results Page



That is the problem with polygenetic traits.

so now can you tell me which of those results are sunset and which are not? With this example there are 81 different "Is this a hypo hog?". Lets go farther and add blood and albino, now which one is the bloody sunrise vs just a sunglow blood? I don't see how you can have localities in combo names. Again that is assuming only 4 genes are the cause of the trait..... it could be more. It could also be less, its completely unknown. 

I don't want to say they are full of crap but I do feel it is deceptive marketing, unless it is marketed in a way which has a definition of what something is..... which is what we have all been after in the first place lol.

If we knew how many genes caused the trait, then you could work it into the calc. Only 2 or 3 genes causing the trait, might only be dealing with 1/16 or 1/64 chances of getting the trait. But with it being unknown... can't give anything close to accurate results. So I think we need to remove it.

Line bred traits are polygenetic also, I know less about leopard geckos then I know about boas lol, so I really have no idea. I know the engimas are pretty cool looking though.  :Smile:  But my guess would be, if they have anything accurate, they figured out how many genes cause the trait and applied it to the calc. It's all pretty simple once you have the information.

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## OhhWatALoser

As for the dominant thing, the calc was written with what I have already stated in mind. So now you get accurate answers when you turn on pos het ouput....

*Male:*
Hypo

*Female:*
Hypo

*Percent*
*Fraction*
*Traits*

75%
3/4
33% Possible Super Hypo

25%
1/4
Normal

View Results Page



I see no reason to change it to the established terminology and get less accurate results. Who knows maybe we reverse the misconception.....

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_Evenstar_ (03-11-2013)

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## BFE Pets

to each there own. sunsets het sunsets and hogs all have a unique look. I don't believe the hog island hypo is polygenetic. I think it is purely an incompatible line of hypo which is where you get these morphs. owal wrote the program so if he deems it necessary to lump all the hypos into one generic category that's his purgative. I just disagree.  no hard feelings no whining i'm just happy this is the only real issue that has come from my research.

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## OhhWatALoser

> to each there own. sunsets het sunsets and hogs all have a unique look. I don't believe the hog island hypo is polygenetic. I think it is purely an incompatible line of hypo which is where you get these morphs. owal wrote the program so if he deems it necessary to lump all the hypos into one generic category that's his purgative. I just disagree.  no hard feelings no whining i'm just happy this is the only real issue that has come from my research.


I can't find anything that says otherwise,  I mean if it's monogenetic you could breed a hog island hypo to a normal you'd see about 50% hypo 50% normal.  Should be easy to see that trend.

----------


## USNHM242

Add this one to your calc...I believe I am the first to produce this combo:
-Super Hypo Super Jungle VPI T+ Caramel Albino

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_BFE Pets_ (05-12-2013),_jben_ (05-28-2013)

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## BFE Pets

Wow very impressive! Do you have a name for the combo? We will be happy to add it to the morph list. Thanks for sharing. Love the mustache and fu man cho .  Lol

----------


## USNHM242

We call the vpi t+ Super sunglow jungle, the Tanglow

----------


## USNHM242

Also that should say poss super since we won't know until he is old enough to breed

----------


## OhhWatALoser

Well Poss Super can't be an input,  but the Hypo VPI Caramel Super Jungle hasn't got a name either. Would you consider that a Tanglow and the super hypo version a Super Tanglow perhaps? or just the Super hypo a Tanglow?

----------


## Evenstar

I don't know what USNHM242 will say about it, but I would think the Tanglow would be a VPI T+ Hypo Jungle.  3 genes, no super involved.  If the animal proves to be a super then it would be called a "super Tanglow".  After all, a moonglow is a 3 gene animal too.  And there are super moonglows.  But we just have "moonglow" listed in the database.  Just my thoughts and no offense intended to the creator of the Tanglow!  LoL.   :Very Happy:

----------


## OhhWatALoser

I do agree with you and it does make sense comparing other naming patterns, it will be updated like that for now, at least until the creator can clear it up.

----------

_Evenstar_ (05-15-2013)

----------


## USNHM242

No offense at all, you guys actually make some great points. So lets call the vpi T+ sunglow jungle a Tanglow and a VPI t+ super sunglow jungle a super Tanglow

----------


## USNHM242

By the way here are some pics of the VPI T+ sunglow jungle a.k.a. The Tanglow 
I believe him to be a super since one of the parents is a super hypo het VPI T+, but I won't know for sure until I breed him and the other tanglows

----------

_jben_ (05-28-2013),OhhWatALoser (05-20-2013)

----------


## Evenstar

I don't know if you all saw it or not, but Judy got our calculator into the Reptile Report!!  Yehaw!!  Thanks Judy (JLC)!   :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:  :Very Happy: 

http://thereptilereport.com/boa-genetics-calculator/

----------

