# Other Pythons > General Pythons >  I think my snake loves me

## Kilo

Vote wether or not you believe your snake knows and show affection in odd noticable ways.

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Ratikal (12-26-2016),Sanyassin (11-21-2019),tegu (12-06-2016)

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## python kid

no,snakes don't have feelings they're mindless.

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vincenzo (09-17-2019)

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## Kilo

This is just an opinion poll! (no facts allowed lol)

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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h00blah (07-08-2010),platinumbp (11-27-2014),Ratikal (12-26-2016),ZiggiGirl (09-27-2015)

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## Shaun J

Well, its not an opinion. Its a fact that snakes can't love or hate.

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_akjadlnfkjfdkladf_ (11-24-2011),Monty44 (04-18-2017),tegu (12-06-2016),vincenzo (09-17-2019)

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## daniel1983

you seem to be asking two different questions....

Is it either...

From your poll question you are asking:

Does your snake love you or does your snake not care about you?      

From you post it seems like you are asking:

Do you believe snakes feel emotions?

Which one is it? Try wording your poll a bit better  :Wink:

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e_nigma (05-01-2020),omgitsnikita (09-15-2012),_STjepkes_ (01-18-2013)

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## Kilo

I apologize  :Sad:  Im a sucky pollster  (**Kilo goes and sits in the corner**)

I was aiming for do you think your snake understand emotion.

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e_nigma (05-01-2020),h00blah (07-08-2010)

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## Shaun J

Snakes don't understand emotion other than "I'm gonna eat you!!!"

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## daniel1983

> I apologize  Im a sucky pollster  (**Kilo goes and sits in the corner**)
> 
> I was aiming for do you think your snake understand emotion.


I edited your poll. Let me know if that is what you were aiming for.....if not, I can always change it back.

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## Kilo

bpkid.. im siding with the rest of you bro. I just wanted to know everyone elses opinion.

Daniel thats fine thanks.

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## mr~python

they're instinctual creatures. they're not smart enough to love something or someone.

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## Shaun J

To those who answered, My snake loves me, how did you come up with that conclusion????

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## Razaiel

> Snakes don't understand emotion other than "I'm gonna eat you!!!"


OR "Are you big enough to eat ME???"

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## jessie_k_pythons

Frankly My snakes all know when I walk in the room and poke their heads out. but if I was the size of a mouse I know Lady would eat me.

Baby on the other hand I thinks feels some conection with me in some level.
if he dose something he looks at me as if to say "look what I did mom! I fit my self in something smaller than me" or "I just made a poopie, look mom look!!" he looks for efection, almost begging for it. and he very much let me know if he likes something or dislikes it. but then again, we all want to wish our snakes love us and are able to show efection, emotion and anything other than "feed me" or "I will eat you" attitude"

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_alykoz_ (06-21-2013)

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## Ginevive

Mine will often look out when someone apsses by; that's because the heat signal we emit must be pretty darned huge (never saw a rat THAT big!)

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## AkivaSmith

I don't think that it is the heat signature that gives you away.  

Probably the vibrations from the floor transferring into the enclosure that warn the snake that there is something comming.

Snakes are far smarter that Sharks.  Sharks cannot even discern food from non-food -- they eat everything.

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## Spaniard

> I don't think that it is the heat signature that gives you away. 
> 
> Probably the vibrations from the floor transferring into the enclosure that warn the snake that there is something comming.
> 
> Snakes are far smarter that Sharks. Sharks cannot even discern food from non-food -- they eat everything.


I'm sure its that and the fact they can probably smell us in the air.

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## snakey68

:Surprised:  I am just gobsmacked 4 people think their snake loves them  :Surprised:

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_AlexisFitzy_ (02-20-2014),BabiiBP2010 (08-11-2010),_STjepkes_ (01-18-2013)

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## Kilo

see I told you people would poll there *opinion*! I did it for fun not to start *fact* wars! ** Please remain calm **

 :Razz:   :Embarassed:   :Wink:   :Very Happy:

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_AlexisFitzy_ (02-20-2014)

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## Mina

Do I think my snakes love me?  Well not to put to fine a point on it, no.  I do not think either of my snakes recognize me beyond something that handles them once in a while and has gotten to the point where it does not smell like something that will eat or injure them.

Both Dax (my BP) and Toby (my cornsnake) retreat when they have their heads out and I walk by.  Toby, in particular, does not recognize us as much yet, but we have had him for just about a month now.
My snakes don't mind being handled and will happily investigate calmy anyone who does so, but I think if they had a choice, they wouldn't ever leave their vivs.

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## cassandra

My boa loves to pee on me...does that count?  :Razz:

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Cumminsman (11-22-2014),Monty44 (04-18-2017)

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## Kilo

LOL @ Cass - When I saw that you replied I knew it was going to be funny.

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## Shaun J

> I am just gobsmacked 4 people think their snake loves them


Very gobsmacked.

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## Cartmansdad

They only have 3 emotions.I'm scared,I'm hungry,and he's gonna eat me.

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## xdeus

> They only have 3 emotions.I'm scared,I'm hungry,and he's gonna eat me.


Um... aren't the first and last the same emotion?   :Confused:

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## Spaniard

I don't even know I would go as far as to say they have those three emotions...I think we're giving them those emotions, but if you break it down the snake is just reacting to a stimulus in the same way your eye blinks when dust enters it. 

There is no cognitive thought process, just instinct IMO.

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vivi (04-28-2020)

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## Ginevive

> My boa loves to pee on me...does that count?


lol; you made my day!

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## shhhli

How is this a question?
anyways. I know my snakes would love me if they were able to make a connection between

me having money :: no rat
me having no money :: rat

then again, they would just probably hate money.

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## Kilo

uh oh it's up to 5 votes now!!! lol

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## cassandra

> lol; you made my day!


*high-fives Gin!*

I have my revenge tho...Cleo peed on her Daddy *and* his favorite chair (Rick's lazyboy) last night - muwhahahhaha!

Someone seriously needs to come up with snake diapers.  :Sweeet:

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## Shaun J

Once ten people vote " My snake loves me" I'm going to just go and jump off a cliff.

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## Cartmansdad

I got it setup. :Very Happy:   :Tombstone:  

J/K lol

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## snakey68

currently at 7 straight jackets and counting  :Crazy:

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## Shaun J

> currently at 7 straight jackets and counting



LMAO!!!! 
 :sploosh:  :No:  :Frustrated: : :Crash:

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## sidhe

While I know my snake does not feel love/emotions for me or anything else, this is an interesting topic. I once read a book called "When Elephants Weep--The Emotional Lives of Animals" by Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson & Susan McCarthy. It is an amazing book on how people thought that no animals ever experienced emotions. It was believed to only be a human trait. It doesn't have a snake story (didn't expect one) but, if this intersests you, I highly suggest reading the book. I'll warn you...it's a tear jerker though.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (02-20-2014),_alykoz_ (06-21-2013),Level12Teleport (03-29-2017)

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## Sapphire7

I believee my snake loves and same with all other living creatures.. Idc what people think.. but all animals can love.. with that said.. Im outy...

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_AlexisFitzy_ (02-20-2014)

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## Shaun J

Not snakes. They can't love. They can barely think... lol.

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## mr~python

> Idc what people think.. but all animals can love..


i highly disagree.

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_Ogre_ (12-26-2016)

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## shhhli

> I believee my snake loves and same with all other living creatures.. Idc what people think.. but all animals can love.. with that said.. Im outy...


Yes, they sure can, especially when most snakes spend all their lives alone and do not seek companions other than mating and even leave their offspring after laying/birth! wowee.
mammals are one thing. but every animal is different. i think it takes on a level of intelligence to love. snakes are not on that level.

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## Spaniard

> I believee my snake loves and same with all other living creatures.. Idc what people think.. but all animals can love.. with that said.. Im outy...


Thats right any creature with a heart has the capability to love....here i was thinking you needed a brain capable of rational thought...can I switch my vote?

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Bo 17 (05-21-2021)

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## shhhli

> Thats right any creature with a heart has the capability to love....here i was thinking you needed a brain capable of rational thought...can I switch my vote?


Can't always _not_ have it the way we want.

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## RWillinnable

> Thats right any creature with a heart has the capability to love....here i was thinking you needed a brain capable of rational thought...can I switch my vote?


Jane Goodall might disagree with that statement.

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## Spaniard

Chimps have a much more developed brain than snakes.

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## RWillinnable

So, you are saying that love, whatever that term may mean or whatever you think it means, is incapable of emerging from any lower level functioning area of the brain.  Or if you prefer Freudian terms, love can only spring from the Ego.  I disagree.

I think the main problem with this discussion, other than the sophomoric glee people are extracting from their feelings of supposed superiority to others, is that the word love is by far the most overly used word in the English language.  Do I think a snake is capable of love like romantic love?  Of course not.  Do I think a snake is capable of love like the love that The Christ or The Buddha had for the world?  Absolutely not.  Do I even think that a snake can feel empathy?  Again, no.  But can a snake feel safe, secure, emboldened, and not threatened by another being living in close proximity to it?  Yes, I do.  And those feelings are some of the feelings that I ascribe to the word love.

The idea of love encompasses many things.  To extract love of all but its logical and emotional elements is to diminish it.

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## shhhli

> Jane Goodall might disagree with that statement.


wow i bet you thought you were clever with that one.
guys, this isnt a debate
litterally, snakes have no mental capacity for complex emotions like love. if they did LOVE you, wouldn't they, you know.. show it? like give you 'kisses' and WANT to be held, nosing around you isnt wanting to be held, its investigation for food, escape, or warmth.

comparing chimps with snakes is just rediculous.
my car loves me.
cars cant love!
i'll bet all the horse owners out here disagree
....
that's pretty much the comparison you made with snakes and chimps. i honestly do not see us sharing 98% of our dna with snakes, do you?

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## Shaun J

Ok, how is a snake going to love, when it probably doesn't even recognize you?

SNAKES CAN'T LOVE. Period.

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## shhhli

> Ok, how is a snake going to love, when it probably doesn't even recognize you?
> 
> SNAKES CAN'T LOVE. Period.


and for those of you that want to question this, seriously, define love and then tell me if snakes fit the catagories. first and fore most would be do they defend their young AFTER they lay eggs, if they are the egg laying type. crocs/alligators do i believe, but do they also feel the need to seek comfort with other members of their species? being companion, offspring, or pack member? alright then.

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## Shaun J

Cased closed, thank you Shhhli. Lol.

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## Kilo

> So, you are saying that love, whatever that term may mean or whatever you think it means, is incapable of emerging from any lower level functioning area of the brain. Or if you prefer Freudian terms, love can only spring from the Ego. I disagree.
> 
> I think the main problem with this discussion, other than the sophomoric glee people are extracting from their feelings of supposed superiority to others, is that the word love is by far the most overly used word in the English language. Do I think a snake is capable of love like romantic love? Of course not. Do I think a snake is capable of love like the love that The Christ or The Buddha had for the world? Absolutely not. Do I even think that a snake can feel empathy? Again, no. But can a snake feel safe, secure, emboldened, and not threatened by another being living in close proximity to it? Yes, I do. And those feelings are some of the feelings that I ascribe to the word love.
> 
> The idea of love encompasses many things. To extract love of all but its logical and emotional elements is to diminish it.


Well done. *shakes hand*




> Ok, how is a snake going to love, when it probably doesn't even recognize you?
> 
> SNAKES CAN'T LOVE. Period.


I thought they could use scent to identify?

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## Shaun J

> I thought they could use scent to identify?


Food. They can identify anything warm. They can't just see you and say "hey, its my owner!!!"

I think people just like to make snakes into people and mammals. They can't get over that they basically have no feelings.

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## shhhli

> Cased closed, thank you Shhhli. Lol.


meow meow

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## Shaun J

If one more person votes for " My snake loves me." I'm just going to give up snakes lol. Forget jumping from a cliff. 

J/K I 'm not going to give up my snakes because some people don't get it.

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## mr~python

can the people that voted "i know my snake loves me!" please define love and how your snakes loves you to me?

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## RWillinnable

> can the people that voted "i know my snake loves me!" please define love and how your snakes loves you to me?


I already did.

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## Shaun J

No, you explained how they can feel secure and not scared of people. That doesn't mean they love you. That just means they are tolerating handling...

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## shhhli

> So, you are saying that love, whatever that term may mean or whatever you think it means, is incapable of emerging from any lower level functioning area of the brain.  Or if you prefer Freudian terms, love can only spring from the Ego.  I disagree.
> 
> I think the main problem with this discussion, other than the sophomoric glee people are extracting from their feelings of supposed superiority to others, is that the word love is by far the most overly used word in the English language.  Do I think a snake is capable of love like romantic love?  Of course not.  Do I think a snake is capable of love like the love that The Christ or The Buddha had for the world?  Absolutely not.  Do I even think that a snake can feel empathy?  Again, no.  But can a snake feel *safe, secure, emboldened, and not threatened by another being living in close proximity to it*?  Yes, I do.  And those feelings are some of the feelings that I ascribe to the word love.
> 
> The idea of love encompasses many things.  To extract love of all but its logical and emotional elements is to diminish it.



do what now??
i do not believe for a minute that feeling secure or emboldened or safe are a definiton of love. i have never won a debate and gone "wow, i feel empowered LOVE YES" or some other .. thing that has caused emboldenment in my own personal self. yes love is very over used- but those words, they have no relation to the word love, they can be put into a sentence with the word love- but as far as someone using the word 'secure' as a synonym for love. nope.


Dictionary dot com:
and i hope im not diminishing it..?
_1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.  
2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.  
3. sexual passion or desire.  
4. a person toward whom love is felt; beloved person; sweetheart.  
5. (used in direct address as a term of endearment, affection, or the like): Would you like to see a movie, love?  
6. a love affair; an intensely amorous incident; amour.  
7. sexual intercourse; copulation.  
8. (initial capital letter) a personification of sexual affection, as Eros or Cupid.  
9. affectionate concern for the well-being of others: the love of one's neighbor.  
10. strong predilection, enthusiasm, or liking for anything: her love of books.  
11. the object or thing so liked: The theater was her great love.  
12. the benevolent affection of God for His creatures, or the reverent affection due from them to God.  
13. Chiefly Tennis. a score of zero; nothing.  
14. a word formerly used in communications to represent the letter L.  
verb (used with object) 15. to have love or affection for: All her pupils love her.  
16. to have a profoundly tender, passionate affection for (another person).  
17. to have a strong liking for; take great pleasure in: to love music.  
18. to need or require; benefit greatly from: Plants love sunlight.  
19. to embrace and kiss (someone), as a lover.  
20. to have sexual intercourse with.  
verb (used without object) 21. to have love or affection for another person; be in love.  
Verb phrase22. love up, to hug and cuddle: She loves him up every chance she gets.  
Idioms23. for love, a. out of affection or liking; for pleasure.  
b. without compensation; gratuitously: He took care of the poor for love.  

24. for the love of, in consideration of; for the sake of: For the love of mercy, stop that noise.  
25. in love, infused with or feeling deep affection or passion: a youth always in love.  
26. in love with, feeling deep affection or passion for (a person, idea, occupation, etc.); enamored of: in love with the girl next door; in love with one's work.  
27. make love, a. to embrace and kiss as lovers.  
b. to engage in sexual activity.  

28. no love lost, dislike; animosity: There was no love lost between the two brothers.  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: bef. 900; (n.) ME; OE lufu, c. OFris luve, OHG luba, Goth lubō; (v.) ME lov(i)en, OE lufian; c. OFris luvia, OHG lubōn to love, L lubēre (later libēre) to be pleasing; akin to lief] 


Synonyms 1. tenderness, fondness, predilection, warmth, passion, adoration. 1, 2. Love, affection, devotion all mean a deep and enduring emotional regard, usually for another person. Love may apply to various kinds of regard: the charity of the Creator, reverent adoration toward God or toward a person, the relation of parent and child, the regard of friends for each other, romantic feelings for another person, etc. Affection is a fondness for others that is enduring and tender, but calm. Devotion is an intense love and steadfast, enduring loyalty to a person; it may also imply consecration to a cause. 2. liking, inclination, regard, friendliness. 15. like. 16. adore, adulate, worship.
Antonyms 1, 2. hatred, dislike. 15, 16. detest, hate._

now, if you feel that some how we are taking bits of 'love' and forgetting others i am for one a bit offended. i have several types of love- for my boyfriend who i intend to spend the rest of my life with and endow a great deal of my heart and emotion- the love for my family, friends, pets and things that i enjoy to do at leasure- i am sorry, i do not feel in any shape form or fashion that anything a snake will feel or 'think' comes anywhere near any of those i have just described.

one might say that #10 could support your ideas BUT lets look at it a bit closer.
My Snake LOVES his tree limb.
reasons:
-stake out for prey
-protection from predators
-temperature/climate

you could say that that, is, indeed love but i have sever doubts, why? because the snake did not decide on that tree branch. through experience, location, or bodily needs did that snake pick that tree branch. only does it continue to go to the branch is because it -knows- it can get the food better and have a higher predatory success rate OR that it feels for the time being THAT is the location of safety when it is just as likely to hide anywhere else and FINALLY its BODY is telling it it needs that temperature, that humidity that basking spot RIGHT NOW for its on life's purposes. later its body will tell it to go higher or lower. snakes imo are like an organic machine, living breathing and deserving of the care and effort we bestow upon them, but a machine none the less.
eat. sleep. poop. shed. mate. reproduce. survive.

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## Shaun J

I would rep you for that awesome response, but I got this...  :Sad: 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to shhhli again."

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## snakey68

geez I never thought 10 straight jackets would be rquired but it's heading that way  :Rolleyes2: 

very amusing this has turned out to be ( forked tongue firmly in cheek )

 :Very Happy:

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## shhhli

> geez I never thought 10 straight jackets would be rquired but it's heading that way 
> 
> very amusing this has turned out to be ( forked tongue firmly in cheek )


*poke poke* i love your icon

bpkid: aren't you just the sweetest! lol.. spread it around...

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## 4Khan

my bps love nice warm weanlings!

thats for damn sure!

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## mr~python

> my bps love nice warm weanlings!
> 
> thats for damn sure!


 :Dancin' Banana:   :Clap:  thats what im talkin about.

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## 4Khan

> thats what im talkin about.


i believe most animals become conditioned...and most reactions are based on that.

oh..and PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME!

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## mr~python

> PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAAHHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!!  :ROFL:   :ROFL:   :ROFL:   :ROFL:

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## RWillinnable

> do what now??
> i do not believe for a minute that feeling secure or emboldened or safe are a definiton of love. i have never won a debate and gone "wow, i feel empowered LOVE YES" or some other .. thing that has caused emboldenment in my own personal self. yes love is very over used- but those words, they have no relation to the word love, they can be put into a sentence with the word love- but as far as someone using the word 'secure' as a synonym for love. nope.
> 
> 
> Dictionary dot com:
> and i hope im not diminishing it..?
> _1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.  
> 2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.  
> 3. sexual passion or desire.  
> ...


You seem to claim that love can encompass nothing more than what is in the text of the definition in the dictionary.  Love is a concept that artists and scientists have since the beginning of recorded time tried to define.  A legalistic and inflexible definition from some on-line dictionary does not settle the debate for me about what love is and is not and I hope it doesn't settle the debate for others either. 

Your entire argument seems to say that if another being can not love the way that you love your boyfriend, family, pets and what-not, then whatever they feel can not be considered to be love.  In that case then I am a bit offended by your hubris.

I think that your definition of love does diminish it as a total concept because I do feel that safety, security, and emboldenment are parts of the overall concept of love.  Maybe poets and authors do not wax on and on about these concepts, but try to experience love without them.  That love would be like the proverbial house built on sand.

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## jessie_k_pythons

My male Baby knows me from any one else and comes up to me... it also might be the fact that I'm much warmer then every one in the house and that I smell like mice and rats.

My cat and my female rat wont leave me alone as well... ...  :Confused:   :eek: 
                                                                             (I think I know why!)

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## Spaniard

> Your entire argument seems to say that if another being can not love the way that you love your boyfriend, family, pets and what-not, then whatever they feel can not be considered to be love.  In that case then I am a bit offended by your hubris.


If what you say is true then you won't have a problem nameing a few animals and the actions they exibit that you interpret as an expression of love.  You can start with the ball python you own,  I'm curious.

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## RWillinnable

> If what you say is true then you won't have a problem nameing a few animals and the actions they exibit that you interpret as an expression of love.  You can start with the ball python you own,  I'm curious.


OK.  As I defined it earlier, I believe that in the overall concept of love, there are inherant building blocks.  I used the words safe, secure, and emboldended.  My BP has never had a problem with being held or me reaching into his cage or with me in any kind of way that I have noticed.  He also seems to enjoy stretching out completely and me massaging his body.  The conclusion that I come to in regards to my definition of love is he feels love towards me and his surroundings because he feels safe, secure, and emboldened.  

I got into this discussion because I am troubled when people claim absolute understanding of a concept that is wholly fluid.  Love, much like religion, has no one fundamental truth, but many subtle and underlying concepts which support it and I believe a few of those supports are the things I have mentioned.

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## snakey68

> OK.  As I defined it earlier, I believe that in the overall concept of love, there are inherant building blocks.  I used the words safe, secure, and emboldended.  My BP has never had a problem with being held or me reaching into his cage or with me in any kind of way that I have noticed.  He also seems to enjoy stretching out completely and me massaging his body.  The conclusion that I come to in regards to my definition of love is he feels love towards me and his surroundings because he feels safe, secure, and emboldened.  
> 
> I got into this discussion because I am troubled when people claim absolute understanding of a concept that is wholly fluid.  Love, much like religion, has no one fundamental truth, but many subtle and underlying concepts which support it and I believe a few of those supports are the things I have mentioned.


interesting perpective I doubt the masses will agree with you however but at least you state your beliefs.

personally I dont think your arguement holds any water whatsover  and you could relate your thoughts to a  stick insect  or a spider for example, it does nothing to alter the perception of an emotional response in the creature.

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## shhhli

> You seem to claim that love can encompass nothing more than what is in the text of the definition in the dictionary.  Love is a concept that artists and scientists have since the beginning of recorded time tried to define.  A legalistic and inflexible definition from some on-line dictionary does not settle the debate for me about what love is and is not and I hope it doesn't settle the debate for others either. 
> 
> Your entire argument seems to say that if another being can not love the way that you love your boyfriend, family, pets and what-not, then whatever they feel can not be considered to be love.  In that case then I am a bit offended by your hubris.
> 
> I think that your definition of love does diminish it as a total concept because I do feel that safety, security, and emboldenment are parts of the overall concept of love.  Maybe poets and authors do not wax on and on about these concepts, but try to experience love without them.  That love would be like the proverbial house built on sand.


assumption makes an *** out of you and me, btw.
what i was saying is that if you want to put a snakes usually one track mind on my level of 'love' than wow you're out of prespective.
dilly dally all you want with philosophy, snakes have none.
really- go watch the dog wisperer or something, then maybe you can learn no matter what people think, animals are not people and do not respond the way people do. simple.

*and yes, crowley gets 'seemingly' excited when i run my finger down his spine and arches his back. what could this mean? if someone did that to me i'd jump also. he also streatches out on me when i hold him, or clings to my neck- but oh wait! he also stretches out a lot in his cage AND clings around the outside of his hides! gee golly!

----------


## Waldorf_301

I think he loves ya too! Cause if you REALLY knew what he was thinking of You... Ohh Boy!.... That be 1 homeless snake. lol JUST KIDDING


Hope I didn't make you mad w/that.. My snakelooks so cute right now, cause he's about to shed, he's rubbing his nose on the glass to loosing the skin.

I just wanna poke him and say " hey snake..look  :Wag of the finger:  " And that! Was how America was won buy the French.."


 :Dancin' Banana:  Where he @???Where he @???Peanut butter Jelly Time,Peanut butter Jelly Time, PeanutButterJelly,PeanutButterJelly, PeanutButterJelly With A BaseBall Bat!

----------


## shhhli

> I got into this discussion because I am troubled when people claim absolute understanding of a concept that is wholly fluid.  Love, much like religion, has no one fundamental truth, but many subtle and underlying concepts which support it and I believe a few of those supports are the things I have mentioned.


Horse wash. get off of you're blazing saddle and quit acting like you have a PhD in Aesthetic Philosophy or something similar because I can assure you you do not. So until you have some actual 'scholar' time and can put out some text on your 'beliefs' and have them approved by people of better standing then. just dont.

of course religion has no one fundamental truth. there are multiple religions.

i dont believe any of this gollap you have produced means (edit: anything). are you a poet? are you a writer. in all my ten years of writing stories and poetry have i ever used your tag-tails for love in my prose. i really dont know of others who have or directly state that to be secure is love. now, can you feel secure about something and love that? then yes. do i think a snake has a 'i love security' bit in his brain? no. i do however, think that a snake and his body would prefer the lesser stress level of security. so 'call it what you will' no matter how you poets and writers dolly it up- there is always the basic cold calculating but yet beautiful clockwork of these animals. no, they do not feel love- seriously- but its not hard to percieve that they do.

----------


## shhhli

> I think he loves ya too! Cause if you REALLY knew what he was thinking of You... Ohh Boy!.... That be 1 homeless snake. lol JUST KIDDING
> 
> 
> Hope I didn't make you mad w/that.. My snakelooks so cute right now, cause he's about to shed, he's rubbing his nose on the glass to loosing the skin.
> 
> I just wanna poke him and say " hey snake..look  " And that! Was how America was won buy the French.."
> 
> 
>  Where he @???Where he @???Peanut butter Jelly Time,Peanut butter Jelly Time, PeanutButterJelly,PeanutButterJelly, PeanutButterJelly With A BaseBall Bat!


agreed

FREAKING A! ITS PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME OH MY GOOOOOD!!!
(i used to think that every time i saw the banana! but that dancing carrot threw me off.)

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## Waldorf_301

Yeah I saw the carrot and I was like " oh, k" then I saw the banana ! and then I knew..... OH YEAH, IT'S ON !!!!!!!!

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## JLC

Hey folks....so far, we've had a very calm and deliberate debate going here.  Let's keep it that way.  We don't need to tell people how qualified they are to post an *opinion* based on how much education they have.  People are free to believe what they wish, regardless...and so long as it fits within the framework of this site, they are free to express it here as well.  


It doesn't do anyone any good to get yourself so worked up over something that someone else believes and your angst isn't going to change their mind.  (The "you" in this sentence is to everyone in general and not to any single person.) 

My personal opinion (and I tried hard to stay out of this, but since I have to post here anyhow...)  is that snakes and other reptiles are incapable of feeling "love" as we know it and understand it.  Or loyalty or companionship or any of the other "warm & fuzzy" feelings we like to attribute to our pets.  However, I do think it is the height of pride (hubris, if you will  :Razz:  ) to suggest that snakes are incapable of any feelings/emotion whatsoever.  To assume that just because they are biologically primitive and have small brains that there is no function for some sort of feelings, I think, is just as wishful thinking as to assume they can love us just because we want them to.  We simply can't know all that goes on within them....or any other creature.

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## RWillinnable

> interesting perpective I doubt the masses will agree with you however but at least you state your beliefs.
> 
> personally I dont think your arguement holds any water whatsover  and you could relate your thoughts to a  stick insect  or a spider for example, it does nothing to alter the perception of an emotional response in the creature.


I do apply my definition of love to all, even to the least sophisticated microbe.  I think it makes the world a more interesting place.  I could be wrong on all this.  It is just my opinion.  

Now, I am more interested in seeing some Daytona pics.  Those are some phreaking hot looking snakes!!!

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## Shaun J

> I'm much warmer then every one in the house and that I smell like mice and rats.



BINGO!!!!

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## shhhli

even though it is opinion, etc etc, if we can kindly look to the poll's results it seems people with more experience with bps voted 'no love'. ironic?

either way, as 'philosophical' as this debate was (or could be anyways) it was amusing.

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## steveo

Personally my opinion is that snakes dont feel love towards there owners, as has already been stated here they operate on instinct alone.
Saying that though we cant just say because they have small brains they have no emotions what so ever, parrots for example eg :African greys they have a brain the size of a walnut but are one of the most intelligent of  animals and science studies have found that African grey have the intelligence of a 5 year old and the emotions of a 3/4 year old

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## shhhli

> Personally my opinion is that snakes dont feel love towards there owners, as has already been stated here they operate on instinct alone.
> Saying that though we cant just say because they have small brains they have no emotions what so ever, parrots for example eg :African greys they have a brain the size of a walnut but are one of the most intelligent of  animals and science studies have found that African grey have the intelligence of a 5 year old and the emotions of a 3/4 year old


I dont think anyone here is saying they dont- trust me, i bet crowley gets hot to trot when he hears that mouse thumping around his hide!

African Grey's are very clever little animals- along with pigs- I used to think that dolphins were also intelligent, but someone new has suggested prehaps not so considering they can be 'trapped' in fishing nets where the tuna intentionally hunted have no problem flinging themselves over the rim. dolphins do not......?

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## Dougie

I don't know what I think.  I believe that snakes are capable of recognizing different people, and feeling more comfortable with certain people.  There was actually a study on retics that showed they were able to recognize different people, becoming extremely defensive around new people, and just calmly coming out of the cage to their owner.  My Olive python I believe is capable of recognizing different people, and remembering who they are.  I know people will tell me I am wrong, but several people that come over here comment on how remarkable it is that the snakes seem to recognize me.  So in one sense, yes I think snakes can show love in their own way.  I don't believe it is in the same way we show love, but I do believe they can show comfort with their owners.

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## SilentTigress

I agree with Dougie. I don't think snakes are capable of 'love' (although my friend insists that my snake hates the world...), I do think they recognize those that hold them all the time. My Children's python is VERY defensive and jumpy when anyone else but me holds her, even if hand her off to the other person. 


But then again, my brother's corn snake doesn't seem to react different to anyone at all....hm...now that makes me question my whole opinion...lol

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## shhhli

> I agree with Dougie. I don't think snakes are capable of 'love' (although my friend insists that my snake hates the world...), I do think they recognize those that hold them all the time. My Children's python is VERY defensive and jumpy when anyone else but me holds her, even if hand her off to the other person. 
> 
> 
> But then again, my brother's corn snake doesn't seem to react different to anyone at all....hm...now that makes me question my whole opinion...lol


Well there are really laid back people that don't care one way or the other.. maybe the corns a nihilist(sp) lol. if one is to assume they have personalities then the possibilities are endless. cybil and ben hate to initially be picked up but afterwards 'enjoy' 'splorin'. jadis is as sweet as a snake could be, same with crowl-ster.

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## kittyish

i know my bps love me after a good feeding and my lil one loves to wrap around my hair when its in a bun... and so does the big one but i really cant allow him to do that since he is like 1300 grams ...

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## snakey68

> i know my bps love me after a good feeding and my lil one loves to wrap around my hair when its in a bun... and so does the big one but i really cant allow him to do that since he is like 1300 grams ...


  and how exactly do your Bp's express their love for you after feeding ?

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## Melicious

I'd have to agree with Ansli.  Once we start claiming personality, the rest is endless.  Ophi adores being out, and fights to get out as often as possible.  Hadrian spends more time under his hide and will fight to get back in.  Ody is content either way...

I think, in their own way, they love me just like I love them and even if they don't have emotions or personalities, etc, I can continue to care for them and love them.  My own father swears she truly does love me.  (Ophi!)

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## jbo901

[QUOTE=shhhli] So until you have some actual 'scholar' time and can put out some text on your 'beliefs' and have them approved by people of better standing then. just dont.

Do you have any "scholar" time? :Confused:

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## Sapphire7

> and how exactly do your Bp's express their love for you after feeding ?


Well sometimes its hard to show emotions, snakes are modest animals. They do show emotions, humans need to stop being one minded dwits... selfish creatures we are, only thinking "us have this, us have that, us us US"  :Cool:   :Rolleyes2:

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## Sapphire7

[QUOTE=jbo901]


> So until you have some actual 'scholar' time and can put out some text on your 'beliefs' and have them approved by people of better standing then. just dont.
> 
> Do you have any "scholar" time?


Do you have proof? People say the reason why snakes have no feelings is because they are missing a piece of the brain that is the "emotion" box. HELLO, animals all have different body parts and unique creatures. We are all not physically the same, our DNA is not the same. We cannot proofly prove that snakes have no emotions, we cannot touch their brain and ask them " what do you feel?" they cannot speak. Its like scientists who say there is no God, but we all know that their is :Very Happy:  (Yet my belief, just liek your beliefs about no God, or none feeling snakes) Just let us believers believe and you none believers not believe. Capeesh? Or do you "none believers" always want to prove that you are always right? Just let it go. :Mad:

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Kimber (11-06-2012)

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## Ginevive

If I seriously did believe they had feelings and emotions, I would never agree to keep them in small boxes with nothing naturalistic in them. I believe that they have no cares about anything emotional or aesthetic, which is why it's OK to keep them in plain, unadorned and un-naturalistic setups; they don't care. It would break my heart if smoeone kept a human in such basic, non-sensory-stimulating, blank setups; but since snakes don't have emotion or other human traits, it is OK.

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## RockSolid

> We cannot *proofly prove* that snakes have no emotions,


Huh??? :Confused:

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## Kilo

> If I seriously did believe they had feelings and emotions, I would never agree to keep them in small boxes with nothing naturalistic in them. I believe that they have no cares about anything emotional or aesthetic, which is why it's OK to keep them in plain, unadorned and un-naturalistic setups; they don't care. It would break my heart if smoeone kept a human in such basic, non-sensory-stimulating, blank setups; but since snakes don't have emotion or other human traits, it is OK.


But how do you honestly know that the snake is ok with being kept like that? The point people here are tyring to make (not taking sides) is how in the hell can you proof that what you are saying if even somewhat correct? Just because the majority agrees?

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## JLC

> But how do you honestly know that the snake is ok with being kept like that? The point people here are tyring to make (not taking sides) is how in the hell can you proof that what you are saying if even somewhat correct? Just because the majority agrees?


No one can prove snakes don't have emotions....because it is impossible to prove a negative.  All anyone can go by is the evidence provided by scientific studies and by personal obvservation....neither of which are capable of fully proving or disproving either point.  

However, the BULK of the evidence would suggest that snakes have no capacity for experiencing complex emotions like "love" or even "affection."  Scientific evidence, such as a tiny, relatively primitive brain structure...and personal observation of animals thriving in "plain" captive conditions would suggest that the snakes really don't care if they have fake plastic vines in their territory. 

If some people want to use "personal observation" of their snake coming willingly to their hand when its placed into their enclosure as proof of some sort of emotional preference....well, more power to 'em. 

I do believe there is far more to emotional make-up than scientists can possibly know...and it would be quite prideful to assert that snakes feel NOTHING simply because we have no comprehension of their ability to feel or what they might feel.  But based on the preponderance of the evidence we do have available, I choose to believe they can thrive just fine in a plastic tub with the proper environment set up, no matter how "sterile" it might appear to us emotional humans.

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Pip (06-26-2010),_STjepkes_ (01-18-2013)

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## jason221

> But how do you honestly know that the snake is ok with being kept like that? The point people here are tyring to make (not taking sides) is how in the hell can you proof that what you are saying if even somewhat correct? Just because the majority agrees?


If a ball python thrives in a simplistic setup, wouldn't that mean it was okay with it? If it "didn't like it," don't you think there would be repercussions? I.E., stress. Look at breeders like Adam, NERD, etc. Their ball pythons are kept in simplistic setups, and they eat, shed, poop, breed, etc. I think that's a good way of judging if your snake "likes" his home.

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## Kilo

Judy and Jason: I'm not disagreeing with you guys/girls at all! I house my snakes in tubs also. I was just asking... if we could proof wether or not they mind it. But yet again Judy drops the knowledge bomb and teaches me a lesson. Thanks for taking the time to shed some light on my questions.

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## Shaun J

> But how do you honestly know that the snake is ok with being kept like that? The point people here are tyring to make (not taking sides) is how in the hell can you proof that what you are saying if even somewhat correct? Just because the majority agrees?



1. If my snake eats every week.
2. If it shows no signs of regurge, RI, etc...
3. (Once they are older) If they breed with no complications...

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## frankykeno

Oh let me wade in here LOL. I would say I agree mostly with Judy's thoughts on this matter and strongly disagree with some of the posts calling snakes "mindless". Typical human belief system that we are this totally superior being and anything that isn't just like us is therefore "mindless". 

Snakes may not have the capacity to show love as humans do, not because they are mindless but simply because nature didn't require they do so to thrive. They are perfectly developed for their place in our world and have a brain/mind just as fully developed for that place as we do for ours. 

Do my snakes love me. Not likely and not in any way I could ever perceive so that's a moot point anyways. They are reactive to me in the only way they can be. I appreciate and honor their interactions with me for what they are, not trying to read human emotion into a non-human yet fully functional and developed creature of this world.

----------

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## Cady

I voted yes my snake loves me! Even though I dont think snakes are capable of such a complex emotion as love (heck a lot of humans cant even manage that one) I do believe that they can form bonds and begin to trust thier owner. Often times you will see a snake acting very docile in the hands of its owner, but when a stranger reaches over to hold it the snake becomes very timid, or aggresive.

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## daniel1983

> Often times you will see a snake acting very docile in the hands of its owner, but when a stranger reaches over to hold it the snake becomes very timid, or aggresive.


I have experienced the complete opposite before....does that mean that my snake hates me?  :Smile:

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## Cady

No...lol

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## arajara

Some thoughts:

My BP ~loves~ her privacy.
She ~loves~ me for allowing and providing her that privacy.

Emotions are also called feelings, right? If one can feel, one can emote. Anything with a nervous system can obviously feel. It's a matter of opinion whether or not to think that "to feel" equates with "having feelings."  I think that love is such a strong emotion for humans (and other mammals), because we are warm blooded and feel that blood very strongly in our hearts, and therefore the nerves that are deeply connected to that circulatory system. Snakes are built so differently. Being cold blooded, they have no warmth to share with others like we do. They express their love toward places in their environment that provide warmth and safety.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## shhhli

> Oh let me wade in here LOL. I would say I agree mostly with Judy's thoughts on this matter and strongly disagree with some of the posts calling snakes "mindless". Typical human belief system that we are this totally superior being and anything that isn't just like us is therefore "mindless". 
> 
> Snakes may not have the capacity to show love as humans do, not because they are mindless but simply because nature didn't require they do so to thrive. They are perfectly developed for their place in our world and have a brain/mind just as fully developed for that place as we do for ours. 
> 
> Do my snakes love me. Not likely and not in any way I could ever perceive so that's a moot point anyways. They are reactive to me in the only way they can be. I appreciate and honor their interactions with me for what they are, not trying to read human emotion into a non-human yet fully functional and developed creature of this world.


i think this pretty much sums up anything i tried in vain to say.
perfect.
awesome post.

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## snakey68

> I voted yes my snake loves me! Even though I dont think snakes are capable of such a complex emotion as love .


you lost me there , you voted yes my snake loves me even though you dont think them capable of such a complex emotion:eek:

this thread seems to have moved from a grey area to another dimension but it does make some interesting and amusing reading  :Very Happy: 

arajara , how do you know your snake "loves" her privacy ? how does she show this emotion to you ? 

How do you know she "loves" you for providing that privacy or indeed allowing it in the 1st place ?

Also without trying to sound too pedantic here as I am genuinely interested in your thought process, how do come to the conclusion that snakes express their love towards places in their environment that provide warmth and safety ? 

Is this not a reactive imprint ( utilising warmth and their environment ) through years upon years of development and evolution.  

Primitive and instinctive behaviour I would not class as showing love IMO.

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## sho220

> pedantic


Only Peter Griffin uses that word...

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## gant77

:Frustrated:   :Frustrated:   I really would like to know what leads people to believe these things. My favorite though is when people refuse to separate their snakes because "One misses the other". When I see these and other statements it makes me very angry because that is basically saying the research and time put in by breeders and those with Herp degrees is all a lie. If they say that a Ball Python is a solitary animal and being with others can cause undue stress and ill health I am inclined to believe them, I am sure that if they had any scientific proof that snakes can become "heart-broken", or "depressed" im sure it would have been published by now.

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## recycling goddess

> Oh let me wade in here LOL. I would say I agree mostly with Judy's thoughts on this matter and strongly disagree with some of the posts calling snakes "mindless". Typical human belief system that we are this totally superior being and anything that isn't just like us is therefore "mindless". 
> 
> Snakes may not have the capacity to show love as humans do, not because they are mindless but simply because nature didn't require they do so to thrive. They are perfectly developed for their place in our world and have a brain/mind just as fully developed for that place as we do for ours. 
> 
> Do my snakes love me. Not likely and not in any way I could ever perceive so that's a moot point anyways. They are reactive to me in the only way they can be. I appreciate and honor their interactions with me for what they are, not trying to read human emotion into a non-human yet fully functional and developed creature of this world.


oh ya baby!!!!   :Dancing Carrot:

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## Kilo

> Oh let me wade in here LOL. I would say I agree mostly with Judy's thoughts on this matter and strongly disagree with some of the posts calling snakes "mindless". Typical human belief system that we are this totally superior being and anything that isn't just like us is therefore "mindless". 
> 
> Snakes may not have the capacity to show love as humans do, not because they are mindless but simply because nature didn't require they do so to thrive. They are perfectly developed for their place in our world and have a brain/mind just as fully developed for that place as we do for ours. 
> 
> Do my snakes love me. Not likely and not in any way I could ever perceive so that's a moot point anyways. They are reactive to me in the only way they can be. I appreciate and honor their interactions with me for what they are, not trying to read human emotion into a non-human yet fully functional and developed creature of this world.


Preach it!!!

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## twh

...dangle a thawed rodent from your mouth and insert head into snake enclosure,report back if you can "feel the love". have fun !

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## Kristy

I have never thought my snakes love me. I do believe they recognize my scent as not being a threat and thats about it. 

As far as emotions go for any reptile, I believe the are non exsistant. I do think they have some sort of intelligence though, in their own little way.

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## stangs13

> I have never thought my snakes love me. I do believe they recognize my scent as not being a threat and thats about it. 
> 
> *As far as emotions go for any reptile, I believe the are non exsistant.* I do think they have some sort of intelligence though, in their own little way.


I agree with you on everything, but this. If snakes don't have emotions then why do they ball up or coil back when scared or mad?

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## Sausage

I don't know if my snake *loves* me, but I do know he does not see me as a threat and seems more relaxed around me than with other people. So, I voted yes, as it can't really be proved or disproved.

...with all that poop I've cleaned up he'd better love me!!    :Devil:

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_cristacake_ (09-10-2015)

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## Brandon.O

> I agree with you on everything, but this. If snakes don't have emotions then why do they ball up or coil back when scared or mad?



Instinct.....

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## Kristy

> Instinct.....



Agreed, its an instinctive reaction to feeling threatened.

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## xxCyxx

> Agreed, its an instinctive reaction to *feeling* threatened.


But I thought you just said they have no emotions? If you can feel, you can have emotions. Just because their emotional spectrum isn't as large as a human's doesn't mean they have no emotions at all.

Being scared, feeling threatened... those are emotions. We can feel them. So just because a snake is a reptile and not human, does that void those emotions?

Reptiles may or may not have the capacity to love. But I do believe they can recognize people. Absinthe, our red tail, refuses to be handled by anyone but my boyfriend. She will bite any other person. How is that instinct, that she prefers his company? That she feels safe in his presence? My ball, Puppy, will seek me out above others. When we have friends over, and he's out, he will crawl to me. Not someone else. It's not because I smell or look like a rat or anything similar. They don't even know to associate my boyfriend and I with rats. They associate their big, blue plastic tub with rats. Blue tub = feeding time and they know it. That's conditioning, not instinct.

They're not all about instinct. They do have personalities. And if they have personalities, then that means they do have likes and dislikes. And if they can have likes and dislikes, then that means they feel at least a small amount of emotion.

Like I said, maybe not a broad spectrum. But there are some. And they can come to recognize certain people, and prefer them to others.

Personally I think some people just don't spend enough time with their snakes.

----------

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## Kristy

> But I thought you just said they have no emotions? If you can feel, you can have emotions. Just because their emotional spectrum isn't as large as a human's doesn't mean they have no emotions at all.
> 
> Being scared, feeling threatened... those are emotions. We can feel them. So just because a snake is a reptile and not human, does that void those emotions?
> 
> Reptiles may or may not have the capacity to love. But I do believe they can recognize people. Absinthe, our red tail, refuses to be handled by anyone but my boyfriend. She will bite any other person. How is that instinct, that she prefers his company? That she feels safe in his presence? My ball, Puppy, will seek me out above others. When we have friends over, and he's out, he will crawl to me. Not someone else. It's not because I smell or look like a rat or anything similar. They don't even know to associate my boyfriend and I with rats. They associate their big, blue plastic tub with rats. Blue tub = feeding time and they know it. That's conditioning, not instinct.
> 
> They're not all about instinct. They do have personalities. And if they have personalities, then that means they do have likes and dislikes. And if they can have likes and dislikes, then that means they feel at least a small amount of emotion.
> 
> Like I said, maybe not a broad spectrum. But there are some. And they can come to recognize certain people, and prefer them to others.
> ...



Ok let me clarify, I wasn't really classifying fear and feeling threatened into emotions. When I was talking about emotions I was refering to love. Reptiles don't feel love. Feeling threatened yes. But this thread was refering to snakes loving people so thats what I was refering to as far as emotions.

But balling up or a defensive postion is simply a natural instinct for them when the feel threatened. 

Just wanted to get that out there. I should have clarified earlier.
Kristy

----------


## xxCyxx

> Ok let me clarify, I wasn't really classifying fear and feeling threatened into emotions. When I was talking about emotions I was refering to love. Reptiles don't feel love. Feeling threatened yes. But this thread was refering to snakes loving people so thats what I was refering to as far as emotions.
> 
> But balling up or a defensive postion is simply a natural instinct for them when the feel threatened. 
> 
> Just wanted to get that out there. I should have clarified earlier.
> Kristy


Then excuse me for taking it as such.

I still just think they have the capability to love in their own way. Honestly, Puppy has never once balled up in my presence. I take that to mean that he does not view me as a threat. That, along with his other actions towards me, lead me to believe that while he might not love me as one human loves another, he does feel some form of that emotion towards me, in his own way.

My opinion, based on my own observations and my own snake's actions.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## Kristy

I get exactly what you are saying about Puppy, people like you and threads like these always make me question my own beliefs as far as this topic goes. Main reason being, is that we can only percieve (sp?) love as we feel it and we experience it. Then when a thread like this comes up we automatically assume that when someone asks about love and reptiles that they are talking about human love. 

Then there is someone like you xxcyxx that kind of changes my perspective about the whole thing.  When you put it as you do, reptiles loving in there own little way, it makes me question it. Thank you for that because I can be too stubborn sometimes to see another persons point of view.

But on subject of Puppy, and the way he reacts to you reminds me of Houdini. He is okay with my husband and my son, he sees them and is around them almost daily. But any other men and he goes batty. Gets aggitated, ansy and wont sit still. He is not like this with females at all, any female (human) my mom loves to hold him never once aggressive towards her or any other female. But god forbid a man should try and handle him.

So thinking of it from the animals point of view opens up a whole new world of questions. Maybe we should really look at the emotions from the reptiles perspective and not our own. At least I should lol
Kristy

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Aiion (10-13-2009),_cristacake_ (09-10-2015),Miss Mayhem (07-09-2017),_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## danigurrl

> But can a snake feel safe, secure, emboldened, and not threatened by another being living in close proximity to it? Yes, I do. And those feelings are some of the feelings that I ascribe to the word love.
> 
>  The idea of love encompasses many things. To extract love of all but its logical and emotional elements is to diminish it.






> Love, much like religion, has no one fundamental truth.


A agree with these statements.  I voted my bp loves me.  I think some recognize certain people as not being a threat, therefore they 'open up.'  

I think some people (no one specificly) are tying the Webster's defined human emotion of love to tightly.  Its sort of a tunnel vision view (is that repeating myself?  vision, view....anyway...  lol.)

My normal bp has some sort of respect/recognition/'love' for me since he only comes out of his hides for me (when he sees me hes instantly roaming around his viv poking the screen of the tank as if to say "Let me out!")  I don't know if its my scent, my heat, my voice (if snakes can distinguish sounds well enough.)  I live in a house where there are many other people coming in and out of the herp room, who also feed and handle the snakes. For some reason tho, this bp will comes out for me and sit with me for hours, while he fidgets when other people handle him.

 Through my experice with my herp collection, I have a few specimens who I believe have some type of bonding/comfort with me.  Others are completely instinctive and emotionally void in every sense of a sterotypical wild snake.

Its tough to explain without making a 100 page post.  Do I think any of my snakes experience love like a puppy would, or like I love a painting, a boyfriend, a family member, or pasta?  Of course not.  Love is what an individual defines it to be.   If someone wants to make the connection with their herp  and see it as having some sort of comfort and respect with them, whats wrong with it?  It doesn't make the owner crazy, its just a different point of view.

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_cristacake_ (09-10-2015),_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## xxCyxx

Exactly =] I'm glad you get what I'm saying.

And don't worry. I can be pretty stubborn myself. Especially when it comes to my snakes. Just being around them the way I have been, and seeing them, comparing them to other people's snakes... I retain that they have emotions. Not broad or strong ones. But they do.

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## nebby3103

I think the problem here is that everyone defines love differently. Love is just a concept or construct. We're not talking about humans loving humans, but suppose we were. What does it actually mean to love someone?

You only kiss them, no one else? You would take a bullet for them? You have children together? All of the above and much, much more?

I think 'snake love' needs to be operationally defined on a much simpler level than human love before we can decide whether we believe our snakes love us. If we could all agree on some such operational definition, than we would all be on the same page when we say "it loves me," or, "it loves me not." We all know snakes aren't capable of loving in the same way as people.

So, I define 'snake love' as a snake's ability to recognize a person as nonthreatening and to react accordingly (i.e. by not trying to eat you). Using that as my definition, which seems appropriate since we're talking about a reptile, I would say my snake loves me. It reacts differently to me than it does to others, seemingly indicating a preference for me. Probably because I'm not a threat. There you have it, 'snake love.' Very different than human love, hence we have to use a different definition.

Like I said, the problem is coming up with an operational defnition of 'snake love' upon which everyone agrees. 

I can't sleep, just some thoughts.

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goddessbaby (01-21-2015),_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## repforlife

O.k i really was going to just not get into this subject,but here it is,Yes they do have feelings if you want to call basic emotions feelings,they get hurt just like we do,they have temper flares just like we do,and yes they feel pleasure.Now i understand that people think that all reptiles are mindless zombies who live off instinc,this is not true and far from the truth.They have a social structure with in and need stimulation to have a well being.Good example,(This was a year ago)We lost our little girl (Ball Python) god bless her soul,when she did past away,her mate stopped eating and kept going around the cage for days,and seemed really frumpy.Now call it what you will,it is a form of depression.He was and still is an awesome eater,no health issues,no problems untill that happened.He is over it now,since i introduced him to a wonderful new girl,after they met,he went back to his normal self,but it took awhile for him to get back on track.How do explain that?We are animals no matter what everyone thinks.Reptiles are no different,they play,they do feel,and they do have basic feelings and emotions.Scientist beg to differ,because they onley look at one side,which is the scientific end of it all.I beg to differ,because my reptiles in one way or another show me emotion and inteligents.

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catboulet (04-05-2009),_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## Aric

> Good example,(This was a year ago)We lost our little girl (Ball Python) god bless her soul,when she did past away,her mate stopped eating and kept going around the cage for days,and seemed really frumpy.Now call it what you will,it is a form of depression.He was and still is an awesome eater,no health issues,no problems untill that happened.He is over it now,since i introduced him to a wonderful new girl,after they met,he went back to his normal self,but it took awhile for him to get back on track.How do explain that?


Sorry to hear that but does that mean you housed them together?

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## repforlife

Of course,they have plenty of room to roam around and beleive it or not they are not snake eaters,most ball pythons at least in my opinion are very social with each other and seem to like the company of each other.What happened was my female,got egg bound and did not survive the surgery.Though the vet i brought her to did do his best and i do not blame him for what is done,it still sucks,she was our girl.

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## tigerlily

> Of course,they have plenty of room to roam around and beleive it or not they are not snake eaters,most ball pythons at least in my opinion are very social with each other and seem to like the company of each other.What happened was my female,got egg bound and did not survive the surgery.Though the vet i brought her to did do his best and i do not blame him for what is done,it still sucks,she was our girl.


That is an excellent reason for NOT housing them together.  Your female was probably bred before she reached a sufficient weight.  Ball pythons are not social animals, and housing them together has NO benefits for the snakes.  I'd highly advise you to separate them.

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## nebby3103

> Scientist beg to differ,because they onley look at one side,which is the scientific end of it all.


Is there another side? We call upon science to solve these problems. Science has proven you wrong. Reptiles cannot experience human emotions in the way you claim they can.

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## repforlife

O.k look it i am not here to get into a peeing match with anyone.My female was 12 years old,my male is 10 years old,If you seperate them and then introduce them,they will breed,i have allways housed Ball Pythons together with out any negative out come,the eggs that were in her were infertile i have never seen any mating going on with either one of them,some snakes do in fact still produce eggs with out a male around,well mine happened to do just that with out mating.I have been into reptiles for 22 years +.I would like to think that i know what i am doing.And yes,Ball Pythons and Red Tails are very social with each other.Now i am not saying all snakes can be social with each other,but i know for a fact that at least mine are.Scientist dont know everything,it is experience that counts.Books do not tell all.I do not know where all of you are getting your information from,but you need to recap and do some more research.Just an opinion.Not bashing.

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## Aric

> I do not know where all of you are getting your information from,but you need to recap and do some more research.


I do believe we get our info from some of the most experienced ball python breeders in the world. May I ask where did you get your info from when you started out telling you it was ok to house them together?

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## repforlife

I would like to add one more thing,by no meens am i an expert,i am sure everyone here learns something new everyday about there animal,i am just pointing out what i have observed in my husbandry and keeping of different reptiles and amphibians through out the years.

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## repforlife

I was taught by R.Js Exotics,N.E.R.D,and private breeders from where i am from.Volunteered my time for more than 7 years at both places.Not to mention i am part of the New England Herp Sociaty.NEHS.So you meen to tell me that they are wrong in what they taught me?Wow,i guess i am going to have to tell Rob who own R.Js Exotics that everything he taught me over the years was wrong.I wonder what he is going to say?Hummm

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## Aric

> I was taught by R.Js Exotics,N.E.R.D,and private breeders from where i am from.Volunteered my time for more than 7 years at both places.Not to mention i am part of the New England Herp Sociaty.NEHS.So you meen to tell me that they are wrong in what they taught me?Wow,i guess i am going to have to tell Rob who own R.Js Exotics that everything he taught me over the years was wrong.I wonder what he is going to say?Hummm


Ive never hears of R.Js exotics (doesnt mean they are bad people) but ive gotten the vast majority of my info on keeping my reptiles from NERD, and as for the private breeders, some are very good and experienced and some will make you wonder how their animals are living. Not trying to start an argument, im just stating what ive been taught and have learned from the best in the business.

Good Luck! :Rock on:

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## repforlife

Look it like i sald before,i am not here to get into a peeing match with anyone,i understand everyone has there opinion and everyone thinks that they are an expert.I am no expert and i can say it in confidence and admit it.We are all here for one purpose am i right?And that is because we love our reptiles and it is good to chat to one another about them and get information.Opinion are opinions,that all they are.We should not be going against ourselfs when there are so few of us around who truley love our animals.So lets just stop attacking and be good little herpers shall we,and stop with the i know more than you bit.

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## tmlowe5704

> O.k look it i am not here to get into a peeing match with anyone.My female was 12 years old,my male is 10 years old,If you seperate them and then introduce them,they will breed,i have allways housed Ball Pythons together with out any negative out come,the eggs that were in her were infertile i have never seen any mating going on with either one of them,some snakes do in fact still produce eggs with out a male around,well mine happened to do just that with out mating.I have been into reptiles for 22 years +.I would like to think that i know what i am doing.And yes,Ball Pythons and Red Tails are very social with each other.Now i am not saying all snakes can be social with each other,but i know for a fact that at least mine are.Scientist dont know everything,it is experience that counts.Books do not tell all.I do not know where all of you are getting your information from,but you need to recap and do some more research.Just an opinion.Not bashing.


Just because you have not seen them copulate, do you think that they could have done is when you were not looking?

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## repforlife

HAPPY NEW YEARS ALL!!!!May all of you and your Reptiles have a safe and fun year.Remeber:If you happen to be wasted tonight,do not play with your reptiles!I am sure there are going to be some good storys for everyone to share tommorow!!!LOL....

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## Aric

> Look it like i sald before,i am not here to get into a peeing match with anyone,i understand everyone has there opinion and everyone thinks that they are an expert.I am no expert and i can say it in confidence and admit it.We are all here for one purpose am i right?And that is because we love our reptiles and it is good to chat to one another about them and get information.Opinion are opinions,that all they are.We should not be going against ourselfs when there are so few of us around who truley love our animals.So lets just stop attacking and be good little herpers shall we,and stop with the i know more than you bit.



I NEVER once said I was an expert. I would like to know whos attacking you, I sure hope you dont think im attacking you in my 3 (now 4) posts on here? And again, ive never said anything about knowing more than you, all I said was I got my info from the most experienced breeders in the world and the housing together thing was one of the very first things ive learned from them.

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## Aric

> Just because you have not seen them copulate, do you think that they could have done is when you were not looking?


they do like to be sneaky little boogers when it comes to that for me. :Cool:

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## repforlife

Not that i am aware of (Them breeding behind my back ,i meen)I am sure it is possiable and may have happened?I myself do not beleive in breeding Ball Pythons,i meen if it happens it happens,i have had my fare share of baby Ball Pythons born right here and it was hard enough time to just find good homes for them all.But there are so many around here at least that people get and think,"Oh i am going to breed these guys and make a ton of money",that they find out the hard way,that it kinda,not works that way,at least around here,that alot of them end up in crappy homes and then get passed to a even crappier home and then usally end up here with us,and i end up treating them,for what problems they endure and then find good forever homes for.I do beleive certain allmost extinc reptiles (Monkey Tail Skinks,Mertins Water Monitors,White Throat Monitors,ect...)Should be bred for the simple fact that there numbers are allmost gone in the wild.But not all reptiles should be bred for the fact of a quick buck.

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## repforlife

Oh,all i was saying about the "Being good part" was i was under the impression that the chat was getting kinda heavey.Just did not want it to go to crazy if you know what i meen.

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## repforlife

Keeping the peace folks!!Thats all!  :Smile:

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## Aric

> I do beleive certain allmost extinc reptiles (Monkey Tail Skinks,Mertins Water Monitors,White Throat Monitors,ect...)Should be bred for the simple fact that there numbers are allmost gone in the wild.


I totally agree with you there, our local reptile zoo has a breeding program for several endangered reptiles, including my favorite Monkey Tail Skink. :Sunny:

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## Aric

> Oh,all i was saying about the "Being good part" was i was under the impression that the chat was getting kinda heavey.Just did not want it to go to crazy if you know what i meen.


There have been some "heavy" threads here in the past (I beleive most are now locked) but im not the kinda person to make a thread go crazy and start a heated argument. I like things calm.

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## Kara

> I was taught by...N.E.R.D, and private breeders from where i am from.Volunteered my time for more than 7 years at both places.


Recently?

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## jason221

> if snakes can distinguish sounds well enough.


Snakes "hear" through vibrations. They don't hear sounds such as someone talking. If you look closely, notice they don't have any ears.

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## repforlife

No like 7 years ago,it was for a short time like 1 month from you guys,it was an experience i think it was in the summer of 01. R.Js Exotics is the one that took me under there wing and taught me everything else that i did not learn from you guys.Hi Kara.By the way i finally got my Blood and you were right,they are awesome.I should have got one a long time ago.Here is a pic of her.Let me know what you think.

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## repforlife

Not that i have never played with Bloods it is just from past experience i allways had a bad one with these guys,getting bit,sprayed on,did i mention getting bit?But for some reason,she really apealed to me,so i went for it.To my surprise she is the sweetest Blood i have ever encountered,now i am not saying i will never take a hit from her.But time will tell.For now she is my new love.

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## repforlife

O.k,i am way off topic here.Could someone move this to the Blood section?We are suppose to be chatting about "I think my snake loves me".Sorry folks.Got side tracked.

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## rabernet

> No like 7 years ago,it was for a short time like 1 month from you guys,it was an experience i think it was in the summer of 01.


I "think" Kara's point is that they do NOT recommend housing together like you suggested, at least not now.

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## repforlife

I tottaly agree and am not saying that anyone is right or wrong.I am just saying from my experience,i have never had a negative experiece rooming them together,myself at least.I meen it not like i just get one from someone and throw them together,of course there is a quartine period.Just my experience has never been a bad one with houseing them together.

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## rabernet

I think you should visit this thread that was a long discussion on housing ball pythons together. Keepers with years more experience than you and I on this topic sounded off on it.


http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=23890

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## repforlife

O.k cool i will check it out.

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## tmlowe5704

whatever happened to the pic of the BP that ate the other?

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## jason221

LilyOrchid posted that picture in an old thread on this site. I don't know who it belongs to.

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## Sausage

at the picture above: 
OH MY GOD!!!!!!  :projectile:

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## Ginevive

> Not that i am aware of (Them breeding behind my back ,i meen)I am sure it is possiable and may have happened?I myself do not beleive in breeding Ball Pythons,i meen if it happens it happens,i have had my fare share of baby Ball Pythons born right here and it was hard enough time to just find good homes for them all.But there are so many around here at least that people get and think,"Oh i am going to breed these guys and make a ton of money",that they find out the hard way,that it kinda,not works that way,at least around here,that alot of them end up in crappy homes and then get passed to a even crappier home and then usally end up here with us,and i end up treating them,for what problems they endure and then find good forever homes for.I do beleive certain allmost extinc reptiles (Monkey Tail Skinks,Mertins Water Monitors,White Throat Monitors,ect...)Should be bred for the simple fact that there numbers are allmost gone in the wild.But not all reptiles should be bred for the fact of a quick buck.



Am i missing something here? How can one say that BPs should not be bred.. and then, allow a male and a female BP to live in the same enclosure? Please do explain.   :Confused:

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## Rascal

I don't think they have the capacity for love, but they definitely have emotion. They can feel stressed, and they can feel relaxed. How much further you want to go with that is up to you.

The part of the brain that deals with social aspects is greatly reduced in a snake. They don't take care of their young either so I'd say they don't "love". But that doesn't mean they can't feel emotion, just that they may not be able to express it.

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## recycling goddess

actually there is a snake which cares for it's young. we were watching it on steve austin... and it stayed with it's young - protecting them. 

can't remember what it was though... hubby thinks it was an african rock python.

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## longviewbplover

I think my snake shows it affections by they it acts around me, when she sees me come up to her tank she gets active like she knows she might get to come out, and when I do have her out she seems to enjoy when I rub the top of her head and chin. She wont pull away and sometimes she even rubs her head on my hand.

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## qiksilver

I'm not saying either way, I didnt even vote, but come on guys psych 101, our emotions come from the most primitive parts of our brain.
http://www.crystalinks.com/reptilianbrain.html

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## wildlifewarrior

> I'm not saying either way, I didnt even vote, but come on guys psych 101, our emotions come from the most primitive parts of our brain.
> http://www.crystalinks.com/reptilianbrain.html


I don't think that link is saying that they are generated from the "reptilian" section of brain, i think it is saying that they have evolved from the original reptilian brain. (just a side note, it isn't the best resourse site)

Quote From your site "It's 'preverbal', but controls life functions such as autonomic brain, breathing, heart rate and the fight or flight mechanism....It's concerned with fundamental needs such as survival, physical maintenance, hoarding, dominance, preening and mating. It is also found in lower life forms such as lizards, crocodiles and birds."

Just because there is part of our brain is called reptilian, doesn't mean it reacts the same way a reptile's would. Basic human emotions can be linked to the more primitive sections of the brain this is true but, there has been millions of years of evolution both between reptiles and mammals as well as reptiles to humans. As it is true that over this trek of evolution the human brain has evolved different portions of the brain to control emotions and actions.(Leiberman, 2001) People tend to anthropomorphize alot and not think about what their capabilities really are. If you step on a snake he will respond with a fight or flight response. If provoked and not given a way to retreat the animal will fight, often called aggression by people. When mating and a battle ensues between males (still talking reptiles) people term this aggression, when it is really just a display of physical fitness and who is more fit to mate with the females (fitness reffering to their genetic ability to sire young). 

I will say in my opinion mammals have a more evolved brain therefore i believe that they do feel some level of emotion, for instance a dog will know it shouldn't be happy if it went to the bathroom on the carpet, but a snake will never realize that it was wrong by bitting the hand that feeds. 

For those of you who feel your reptile does love you, i am not trying to disuade you all from feeling that way, not at all. i just wanted everyone to understand the definition of the reptilian brain both in reguards to humans and actual reptiles. Feel free to read that article on the bottom (just google it), it is very interesting.

~mike

Leiberman, Phillip. 2001. Human Language and Our Reptilian Brain: The Subcortical Bases of Speech, Syntax, and Thought._ Perspectives in Biology and Medicine._ Volume 44, Number 1, pp. 32-51

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## wildlifewarrior

> actually there is a snake which cares for it's young. we were watching it on steve austin... and it stayed with it's young - protecting them. 
> 
> can't remember what it was though... hubby thinks it was an african rock python.


I agree they care for their young (more commonly know in crocodilians )with protection to help ensure their genetic information and physical investment makes it to adult hood and breeding capabilities. I think anacondas hang out around mom for protection but not sure.  This is also why mamma snakes are aggressive when gravid or coiled around eggs.

mike

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## Angel3wolf

Well I do not know about all snakes but I do know about BP'S and yes I can say that I do think they know if they like a person or not I have a female and a male Bp and when I have either one out they love to stay on me and hang out with me no matter what I am doing. My BP'S are just for my pets only and no I do not breed them and yes I am with them alot and I enjoy them that is the whole reason for having pets in our lives is to be able to care for them and love them uncondtionley and enjoy the time we have with them and I am talking about from a pet point of veiw and no I do not beleive the part about all they think about is food if that was the case you would never be able to hold them without getting bit all the time. So if they can think and can stress out when they are not happy that right there should tell people that they are smart to some point and are not dum. I mean hay they know when they are hungry and know how to kill there prey before they eat it so I it would be wise for people not to always think they are dum. So I vote that they know how they feel about a person and if they like them I just do not know about if they are capable of love. But that is just my opion I just have a  careing heart when it comes to my pets and no there is nothing wrong with that either even if it is a snake.  :Very Happy:

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## andwhy6

my snakes are boys... so they arent gay lol

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## tweets_4611

I don't know about snakes loving or not, but I defiately believe that they recognise you. I have noticed a big difference in the way that my girl and my friends snakes act when they are being handled by their owner and when they are being handled by someone else. My Lilly will get comfertable when I'm holding her and just chill out. Maybe explore a bit, but she's pretty relaxed when I have her. When my mom was holding her (I don't live at home, so she doesn't see Lilly much) Lilly was much more active, not frantic really, but definately looking for somewhere else to go. Even when my mom would hand her back to me, she would calm down again. I konw it's not real affection, but I kinda consider it as such. My girly knows me and trusts me, and I love her!! haha

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## tracy0416

No, my snakes do not love me, like me, or need me. They are unwillingly dependent on me as I have caged them for my own personal gain. 

To me LOVE is an emotion BACKED UP by an action: *The desire, decision, and subsequent action one takes to nurture ones own, or another's, emotional, physical or spiritual growth and well-being.* 

LOVE has long been debated (and mis-defined) so I thought I'd present this simple definition (for your consideration) that crosses all kinds of relationships. 

By the definition above, one would have to make a conscious choice to determine what makes someone, or some being, FEEL loved or nurtured, and then peruse those actions. This is as opposed to behaving in a way that they, themselves, like to demonstrate love. (Like an Italian Momma constantly trying to feed people who are full. That's not love.) 

Example, at first, I liked to "pet" my snake. My snake moves his body away in the opposite direction in the area where I was rubbing him, giving me a signal he doesn't like it. I stopped petting my snake. That is a loving demonstration.

The feeling of attachment we feel for others, (fondness in all it's varying degrees) and our pets, perhaps can be "defined" as loving when it is producing positive results. However, a women who neglects or beats her children might say she loves them, or have a feeling of attachment or obligation, but is not demonstrating love (by the definition presented above). A former boyfriend said he loved me, but wanted me to only peruse activities he deemed as valid. Again, not love.

My cats, for another example, want to be near me all the time. I believe it's for their own security, need for warmth etc. They rub me so I pet them. Not because they are trying to be affectionate toward me. When they lick my hand, it's because it tastes pleasing to them. All very self serving. I might go so far as saying they "enjoy" my company and affection as it makes them feel good but I do not think they care for my well being, as such. They'd eat my entire dinner and not leave any for me. 

Having said all this, I care very much for my pets and my people. I admire a lot of things about them and am very fond of them. I need them very much for my well being. I depend on them for many things. I like to, and need to,  derive certain emotional and physical needs/benefits from them. In appreciation, and out of desire, which seems like an unconscious choice, through action and affection, I love them right back!

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (05-29-2009)

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## JeriBeri

mine likes to spend time in my lap resting and likes bein near me

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## Phanpy

I think my snake loves me in the sense that he no longer sees me as a threat. When I first got him and started to handle him he would sqirum away and hide in the nearest nook or cranny.
But now when he wants to hide he hides under the crook of my leg or in the folds of my shirt and dosn't try to get away.  :Very Happy:  

I think his love is, hey you won't hurt me and you're warm.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (05-29-2009)

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## Kilo

This thread is still going huh? I OPT for Sticky so that everyone can read this thread when thinking about snake love  :Smile:

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## liam

i saved its life it better flipping love me  :Razz: , so i havent handeled yet it can sense my love though the tank... time to stare at it using night vision goggles in itsd naturual nocturnal state   :Smile:

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## liam

i think all the snake thinks though is - bloooooody hell this guy is warm, and alive but way to big for me to eat so i wont bother. - now with a 30 foot python it sees me as, 'oooo a little warm snake..i think ill constrict it untill its eyes pop out'

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## Ginevive

I really think that my snakes dislike me. I am an annoyance that brings them food, water, and provides them the nescessities of life out of my paycheck. If I could only be faster when changing their substrate, and offer them rats anytime they wanted I am sure they would adore me.  :Wink:

----------


## KYSHA

> To those who answered, My snake loves me, how did you come up with that conclusion????


It's weird but my man's snake (its basically mine too) acts like she loves us... As soon as we come in the room she pokes her head out and see who it is... She likes to be picked and she loves being around people (especially me or Cris). Cris thinks the same. If we put her down in the yard she will follow us around as if she knew we are her way. He's had her for 9-10 years.. She knows we not gonna hurt her, just feed her and care for her.  :Smile:

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## tracy0416

Oh wow! She follows you around. I love that!  What a fabulous connection you have made with your snake. That must feel awesome.

----------


## Jenny_Bp

Omg I believe in a way my baby will do the same things later on. Your so lucky to have great snakes. Good luck with them in the future girl  :Smile:

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## tank3296

come on guys give kilo a break show him some love cause his snakes can't ok.

----------


## ADEE

I like to think they do... even if they dont  :Wink:

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## Ginevive

I think that my snake has fallen out of love with me. he sulks in the corner of his tub, does not answer when I call him.. I left him numerous messages on his voicemail until it said "memory full" and hung up on me. I got something in the mail that said he had a restraining order against me.. 
Nope.. my snake does not love me.

----------


## West Coast Jungle

> I think that my snake has fallen out of love with me. he sulks in the corner of his tub, does not answer when I call him.. I left him numerous messages on his voicemail until it said "memory full" and hung up on me. I got something in the mail that said he had a restraining order against me.. 
> Nope.. my snake does not love me.


Play hard to get, that always gets them wanting more. (don't give in to easily)  :Very Happy:

----------


## Ginevive

> Play hard to get, that always gets them wanting more. (don't give in to easily)


lol..
So stalking and calling on the phone 100 times a day is not the route to go?

----------


## Nelza

:Cool:   shoooooooooooooot lol. i dont kno about ya'lls snakes, but my baby got luv for me. and YES she does give me kisses on my lips,lol.she just places her little head right in front of my lips and flicks her lil tongue.my wittle Saebre can tell the difference between me and others cuz i handle her a certain way that separates me from others(and probably the smell and the way my skin feels), and i can tell she knows cuz you can see signs of mood change when she senses that she's been passed to someone else.(even with someone who is familiar with snakes)and im the only person she'll quickly climb back on...... i also find it interesting that so far im the only person whom she feels comfortable with touching around the head area and mouth area. she's amazing. im NOT making this up,this ones got a good nose on her, THE FACT THAT SHE CAN MAKE THAT DISTINCTION BETWEEN ME AND OTHERS is wut i consider snake luv. even though snakes might have barely anything of a brain, i believe that as humans, we rely toooooo much on science and so called....proven facts. humans overestimate their intelligence, and its always either THIS or THAT with alot of ppl, well i believe theres always inbetween. humans will NEVER be at a level in which they know everything, so i believe that theres sum stuff bout snakes we dont kno either....nature can outsmart the human, if it couldnt we would know everything by now.

----------


## Ginevive

Kisses on the lips are fun until your snake mistakes your tongue for a rat and coils.. lol. I never align my face, hands or any other body part right with my snakes' face. It is a sure way to get chomped, as it has happened to me a few times in the past. I hope that you would not let an 80-pound Burmese do the same!

----------


## darkangel

> even though snakes might have barely anything of a brain, i believe that as humans, we rely toooooo much on science and so called....proven facts. humans overestimate their intelligence, and its always either THIS or THAT with alot of ppl, well i believe theres always inbetween. humans will NEVER be at a level in which they know everything, so i believe that theres sum stuff bout snakes we dont kno either....nature can outsmart the human, if it couldnt we would know everything by now.


LOL.  Yeah.  Proven facts are stupid.

...

----------


## shhhli

> shoooooooooooooot lol. i dont kno about ya'lls snakes, but my baby got luv for me. and YES she does give me kisses on my lips,lol.she just places her little head right in front of my lips and flicks her lil tongue.my wittle Saebre can tell the difference between me and others cuz i handle her a certain way that separates me from others(and probably the smell and the way my skin feels), and i can tell she knows cuz you can see signs of mood change when she senses that she's been passed to someone else.(even with someone who is familiar with snakes)and im the only person she'll quickly climb back on...... i also find it interesting that so far im the only person whom she feels comfortable with touching around the head area and mouth area. she's amazing. im NOT making this up,this ones got a good nose on her, THE FACT THAT SHE CAN MAKE THAT DISTINCTION BETWEEN ME AND OTHERS is wut i consider snake luv. even though snakes might have barely anything of a brain, i believe that as humans, we rely toooooo much on science and so called....proven facts. humans overestimate their intelligence, and its always either THIS or THAT with alot of ppl, well i believe theres always inbetween. humans will NEVER be at a level in which they know everything, so i believe that theres sum stuff bout snakes we dont kno either....nature can outsmart the human, if it couldnt we would know everything by now.


Please dear lord you are using "satire" with this post.
If so, it is absolutly brilliant.. but somehow the sarcasm alarm in my brain isn't going off.




> its always either THIS or THAT with alot of ppl


GOD people and their This or That! man. i get so tired of it.




> so i believe that theres sum stuff bout snakes we dont kno either


I also believe there is 'sum stuff bout' the english language we don't know about yet.




> nature can outsmart the human, if it couldnt we would know everything by now.


Of course a human cannot outsmart nature! I just dont sit in an air controlled room all day while it hits 100 degrees outside, drive a car, wear clothes, eat cooked food, control fire, have sex and manage not to get pregnant, keep exotic animals in rubbermaid continers in my closet, wear a rain coat or use an umbrella, shave my legs/armpits, wear deoderant, not be eaten by my parents, not kill off my siblings in competition for food (all of this, of course, in no particular order.). I mean good lord. I'm glad I haven't one-upped nature.

You are like, going off on an insane tangent that I just had to follow you on. I honestly do not understand how you can take yourself seriously on that post. I bet if i put you and your snake in a room, you on one end, a fat steaming mouse & a warm hide on the other, that snake wouldn't choose you. I'm quite sure if you never handled your snake again for the rest of her life except to change her bedding & feed her she'd wouldn't be too upset.

;3

----------


## MeMe

> I also believe there is 'sum stuff bout' the english language we don't know about yet.




 :ROFL: 

excellent post.

just sayin'

----------


## shhhli

> excellent post.
> 
> just sayin'



oooo i like your icon. :B

----------


## Shadowspider

Well, I don't think my snakes love me.  I think they could care less about me.... except that I'm the one that tosses the chow into their containers.
My king snake doesn't care if I'm around or not or if I snatch her up and play with her for a while.  She *will* however, run (well, slither) back to me when I put her in one of the kids' hands who she's not accustom to.  My bullsnake... he hates everything and everyone, except food of course.  He'd just as soon never see me near him again, much less have the nerve to take him out and want to hold him.... oh the horrors!!!

----------


## sirgrim

I think my ball python definately likes me. It's more that he knows there's nothing to fear from me, and we share the same space. If he was in the wild I would probably be his favorite tree. Doesn't care that much, but I'm his prefered tree out of the options.

----------


## PunkerGirl1107

I know my snakes know no emotion however... one is a rotten little ehem that will only let me hold her when she feels like it and the other one has a great temperment that will burry itself in my clothes and when shedding time is a little too close he will try and use my hands, legs, pants, chest... anything to start his shed. He'll only do it to me... so emotion, no. But I do believe they associate certain smells with a non-threat and get used to it being that way.

----------


## pythoness

my little female bredli loves me... she always comes up to the glass when i walk past her viv as if to say "cuddle me mummy" ( mummy not a typo, I'm an Aussie)
 :Sunny:

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## MelissaFlipski

> If one more person votes for " My snake loves me." I'm just going to give up snakes lol. Forget jumping from a cliff. 
> 
> J/K I 'm not going to give up my snakes because some people don't get it.


I haven't read all the way through the thread, but I see over 100 people feel their snake loves them (ahem, including me!).  Have you at least torn your hair out?

----------

_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## Kobi Baby

I got tired of the pessimism, so I've jumped to the end also. 

I could type for days, but I'll just get to the point. 

I won't say that kobi LOVES me in the way humans love, but I will say that she recognizes me, enjoys my company (I'm her junglegym), and prefers me over other people. So I guess she loves me as much as she mentally can. This may only be 1% of what we consider love, but I would not dare ever say they have no emotion and are incapable of love.

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## MelissaFlipski

> I got tired of the pessimism, so I've jumped to the end also. 
> 
> I could type for days, but I'll just get to the point. 
> 
> I won't say that kobi LOVES me in the way humans love, but I will say that she recognizes me, enjoys my company (I'm her junglegym), and prefers me over other people. So I guess she loves me as much as she mentally can. This may only be 1% of what we consider love, but I would not dare ever say they have no emotion and are incapable of love.


I like the way you put it.  I do see some sort of connection happening with our snake, but how to define...?

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## crystalp705

My snake tolerates me I think. I wouldnt call it love but more of an understanding. He knows who I am for sure but I think if I crossed a line with him, he wouldnt hesitate to put me in my place. I dont think he would consider his feelings for me before he bit me. As the old saying with snakes "bite first, ask questions later"   :Rock on:

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## jwarriner

> you needed a brain capable of rational thought


Bull:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:. You clearly need a brain capable of *IRRATIONAL* thought to love.   :Wink:

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (05-29-2009)

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## BallPythonsRule

I don't care about facts I know my snake loves me and I love him...
He's like a little angel...   :Very Happy:

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## mo1384

i think a snake can get a sense of security from it's owner, which is kind of like love.

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## Moriar

all i know if i was set for my life with food and shelter and entertainment plus a soon to be stable of chicks to do the horizontal monster mash with at like 6 months old i would at least feign love!

Sotek is so spoiled!

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## Argentra

Well, snakes may not feel 'love' as we humans are accustomed to it, but they do feel security and comfort, fear and stress.

I also believe that they have a way of 'recognizing' their owner as opposed to others who handle them. This was shown to me first hand just yesterday when my dear BF decided he was ready to try holding Nagini for the first time. He's not afraid of snakes...just wary. She had been cruising around on my arm, flickering and such, but when I handed her over she froze...even though Ari is warmer than I am. It was interesting, and I had to reassure Ari that he hadn't freaked her out or anything, she just didn't know him.  :Smile: 

All animals have feelings and emotions, they just aren't expressed or felt in the same way as humans.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## Skiploder

> Well, snakes may not feel 'love' as we humans are accustomed to it, but they do feel security and comfort, fear and stress.
> 
> I also believe that they have a way of 'recognizing' their owner as opposed to others who handle them. This was shown to me first hand just yesterday when my dear BF decided he was ready to try holding Nagini for the first time. He's not afraid of snakes...just wary. She had been cruising around on my arm, flickering and such, but when I handed her over she froze...even though Ari is warmer than I am. It was interesting, and I had to reassure Ari that he hadn't freaked her out or anything, she just didn't know him. 
> 
> All animals have feelings and emotions, they just aren't expressed or felt in the same way as humans.


This is an excellent point.

Two weeks ago, one of the guys who works at the local herp store came by to see our collection.

Now mind you this dude does nothing but handle snakes day in and day out.  He owns several boas and a couple of BP morphs.  The point is that he is not nervous about snakes.

He wanted to see two snakes in particular, our blackheaded male and our tarahumara boa.

The blackhead (Bart) was his usual self, coming right out of the cage as soon as it was opened.  I held him for about three minutes while the guy talked.  Then I went to hand Bart over.

He wouldn't go.  Again, this is a snake that my 6 year old son will hold in my presence.  Bart has no issues going to him.  With a new person, he gently refused to be handed over.

Second up was Diego, our Tarahumara boa.  Again, Diego rested on my  my shoulder for about five minutes.  He eventually allowed me to hand him over to the new guy, but would not settle down for him - basically trying to get away.

Of course our snakes don't love us, but they do know who we are (in a sense).  By taking good care of them, seeing to their needs and acclimating them to us, a basic type of trust is formed.  

It's the same when we have our yearly run to the vet.  When it comes time to look in the mouth, we have several who will only let me touch their heads.

It ain't love but I'll take it.

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## Hardwikk

Snakes don't actually love people like a dog or cat but they can know their owners and get used to him/her, so I answered yes.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Couldn't answer this poll, because neither of the selections was true.

Snakes don't experience the emotion of love, but they DO have emotions.  Reptiles have an array of simple emotions.  Love is a complex emotion, and it's found only in mammals and birds.
You only find love in species that pair-bond, and care for their offspring.  That's the purpose it serves--to keep animals together.

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## Lokua

> How is this a question?
> anyways. I know my snakes would love me if they were able to make a connection between
> 
> me having money :: no rat
> me having no money :: rat
> 
> then again, they would just probably hate money.



isnt this backwards? shouldnt it be 

money = rat
no money = no rat?

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## JLC

> isnt this backwards? shouldnt it be 
> 
> money = rat
> no money = no rat?



I think the point was the sacrifices we make to feed the snakes.  If I have $5 in my pocket, then I don't have a rat.  When I give away the $5 (to the pet store clerk) then I have a rat to give my snake.  :Wink:

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## Lucero87

I agree with the majority of people, i don't think my snakes love me...i think TOLERATE would be a better word.

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## Jenn

Not too long ago, people thought that air was simply the absence of everything else. That it didn't have mass and was not tangable, and therefore could not be manipuliated to our advantage. Along comes Bernoulli. And, of course, now we all know that air is tangable and indeed does have mass. As soon as we understood this we were able to fly!!! 

Then everyone thought that sound was intangable (again because we couldn't see or touch it) and therefore we could not use IT to our advantage. Enter Marconi, and now we can all watch tv and talk on our cell phones to each other. 

The next frontier seems to be THOUGHT. Most people today believe that thought is not tangable. That it exist only in our heads. Many people reason that we can't see it or touch it, therefore we can't use IT to our advantage. Well I don't put myself in the same catagory as Bernoulli and Marconi, but there is no doubt in my mind that thought is in fact a tangable thing. It does have mass and transcends time and space. As soon as we have a thought it exists everywhere all at once. The possibilities are endless once we begin to accept this. 

To prove this concept to myself I decided to materilize a dozen yellow roses using nothing but my thoughts. I placed pictures of yellow roses on my refrigerator, my bathroom miror and my pillow. I thought about yellow roses all the time especially every evening and every morning. I used all of my senses. In my mind, I tasted the rosed, I hurt myself on the thorns. I imagined that my pillow was stuffed with rose pedals. And I didn't tell a soul what I was doing. After about two weeks of this, I was at work one day when a white van pulled in the driveway. I began to tremble. I knew what was about to happen and suddenly I didn't want it to be true. But it was. The driver handed me a dozen yellow roses!!! They were from an aquaintance in Germany!!!! I called to thank her and she told me the story of how about "two weeks ago" she had started smelling flowers all the time. And how thoughts of flowers came to her throughout the day. And how finally one day she couldn't stand it any longer, and passing by a flower shop decided to stop in. She told me that she decided on the spot to buy herself a dozen roses but began to feel selfish and changed her mind. She would send the flowers to a friend instead. She choose me, and at the last minute she asked the clerk to change the order from red roses to yellow roses. 

My point is this... every creature has a thought process, and every though is projected into the universe. People tend to think that we are somehow better than all other creatures. We tend to personify everything, especially our pets. But we also tend to forget that we ourselves came from lower life forms!!!! Every life form has the ability to evolve into any other life form. It happens all the time but so slowly that we tend to deny it because we cannot see it happen. Our own evoloution to a higher life form is what has enabled us to have these emotions we love to talk about so much. There was a time in our past when we were not capable of love just the same way you believe your snake is not capable of these higher emotions. Hello folks... we WERE the snakes!!!! 

So I will remain open-minded that all living creatures are capable of evolving into higher life forms just as we did, and therefore carry the capacity for love always. Just because we are at the top of the food chain right now does not mean that we will always be. A million years from now snakes may sit around wondering if humans are capable of love.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## MelissaFlipski

Pretty cool post, Jenn.  But it may be too "out there" for some people's taste.

I leave it at - we don't really know, do we?

I see evidence of an ever growing bond with the sweet BP we've had for only a few months.  I wonder how amazing that will be in 5, 10, 15 years.  He seems to really enjoy being a household pet.  He seems to recognize who who knows and doesn't know and shows preferences for the familiar over the strange, for the gentle and loving over the wilder handlers.

----------


## ksbrneyes30

How do you know snakes can't love or hate?  Have you ever been given the super human talent of feeling what other creatures experience?  

I believe they do "feel" ... hell, i have one bp that's ticked off all the time and hisses any time i stick my hand in the tank and who strikes the glass when i walk by and another who while very young, escaped his tank (my own fault) and after hours of looking everywhere, i flop on my bed to cry and feel something under my pillow, turns out my escape artist turned up in my pillow case ... not my husbands, or in a nice warm spot.  

He knows I'm the one who rubs my nails gently down his back - he arches himself so that i don't lose contact all the way to the tail.  I drop the mice in his tank.  I made him feel better when he had mites.  

Maybe a snake loves (respects, admires, is thankful for) their owner if they are treated right (and I choose to believe this), but any creature who is cared for by another recgonizes the caretaker and will usually respond with an affectionate demeanor.  

Cobra's will spit aiming at the eyes of what it feels to be it's enemy (it's a snake, how does it know to spit towards the eyes?  It's not human but knows what to do to us to disable us quickly).  

If a snake can instinctively know how to harm us, don't you think that if we respect them for what they are and provide them with all their necessities they just might develop a respect (or dare i say a love) for us?

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

----------


## MeMe

> How do you know snakes can't love or hate?  Have you ever been given the super human talent of feeling what other creatures experience?


I do have super human talents but that is neither here nor there.

 :Wink:  




> escaped his tank (*my own fault*) and after hours of looking everywhere, i flop on my bed to cry and feel something under my pillow, turns out my escape artist turned up in my pillow case ... not my husbands, or in a nice warm spot.


Of course it was *YOUR* fault.

So your saying that you didn't secure one of your enclosures and your snake got out....slithered his lil self all over sniffing your pillow out cause...He loves you...

I don't buy it.  :Wink: 




> I made him feel better when he had mites.


How did he get mites?




> Maybe a snake loves (respects, admires, is thankful for) their owner if they are treated right (and I choose to believe this), but any creature who is cared for by another recgonizes the caretaker and will usually respond with an affectionate demeanor.


What are you referring to...dogs, cats, domesticated animals??? 

You are probably right...your snake just wants to be hugged and kissed...

I tell you what...If your snake 'knows' you so well and LOVES you soooo much...Hold a rat on feeding day and then put *just your hand* in the tub and tell me if he strikes you. I mean...if he loves you why would he strike you???




> Cobra's will spit aiming at the eyes of what it feels to be it's enemy (it's a snake, how does it know to spit towards the eyes?  *It's not human but knows what to do to us to disable us quickly*).



uhmmm I don't know anything about cobras but I would have to say....that is their defense mechanism...which they do to all other species also. 




> If a snake can instinctively know how to harm us, don't you think that if we respect them for what they are and provide them with all their necessities they just might develop a respect (or dare i say a love) for us?


Sure...cause snakes are just _that complex_. 

 :Good Job:   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## darkangel

DUDE BURN.  :Very Happy: 

ksbrneyes30, how can you even presume to oversimply their behavior like that?  Do you _really_ think your snake PURPOSELY went to your pillow because he adores you???? God I really hope that is not your line of thinking.

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## Freakie_frog

> How do you know snakes can't love or hate?  Have you ever been given the super human talent of feeling what other creatures experience?


No I haven't. But as humans we like to think that emotion is a trait solely possessed by humans. Is it possible that animals can feel emotion...maybe..but to take a firm stand that "YES THEY CAN" with no more proof than we can offer to disprove the fact is just as naive.   




> I believe they do "feel" ... hell, i have one bp that's ticked off all the time and hisses any time i stick my hand in the tank and who strikes the glass when i walk by


This sounds like a fear response not an anger management problem. See because we as larger creatures with round pupil  forward set eyes are seen in the animal kingdom as a predator. This sounds like when you walk by the cage or stick your hand into it your snake feels like your going to try and eat it. So it tries to keep you from it. Even a long time pet snake with snap into defensive mode if surprised or startled.     




> and another who while very young, escaped his tank (my own fault) and after hours of looking everywhere, i flop on my bed to cry and feel something under my pillow, turns out my escape artist turned up in my pillow case ... not my husbands, or in a nice warm spot.


As heart warming a thought as this is you must remember your snake had also been dozens of other places before that and had it not been found would have been many more places after the pillow case. 




> He knows I'm the one who rubs my nails gently down his back - he arches himself so that i don't lose contact all the way to the tail.  I drop the mice in his tank.  I made him feel better when he had mites.


Please try something for me get your husband to try this with a wooden spoon or just his hand and see if you don't get the same response. Again this is a typical response that I get from snakes I have had for years and snakes I don't even own. 




> Maybe a snake loves (respects, admires, is thankful for) their owner if they are treated right (and I choose to believe this),


I am glad that you feel so strongly about your pets it is a great thing to be an animal lover and even more so because they are herps. I just hate to think that you have false expectations about what your snake gets out of being your pet.




> but any creature who is cared for by another recognizes the caretaker and will usually respond with an affectionate demeanor.


And yet you have one that hisses and strikes and wont even let you in it's tank. So is that because of the caretaker or because the animal is afraid?
Lions that are well cared for and loved by the people that care for them killer their keepers, The family dog will bite if scared or injured even if the person is acting in its best interest. 
In the end snakes are wild animals could they survive in the wild maybe but that doesn't make them any less wild.  




> Cobra's will spit aiming at the eyes of what it feels to be it's enemy (it's a snake, how does it know to spit towards the eyes?  It's not human but knows what to do to us to disable us quickly).  
> 
> If a snake can instinctively know how to harm us, don't you think that if we respect them for what they are and provide them with all their necessities they just might develop a respect (or dare i say a love) for us?


Spitting cobras spit for the same reason balls ball up its how they have over years learned to best protect themselves.

Do i feel that reptiles can learn to understand we aren't going to hurt them, in a word show them that we aren't a predator. The answer is a resounding  YES!!!!!

Do I feel they can experiance love as we do or on any level no. As much as I would like to have snakes that missed me when I am gone and cried when I came home from a long trip, its just not how the animal is designed.  

Just my two cents

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luluizzi (07-27-2012)

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## Morphie

I don't really care to argue whether snakes are capable of emotion and/or to what level, because it's all speculative.  I do know humans are capable of emotion, however, and that the way some of you treat each other is downright unnecessary and appallingly unkind.  I saw a lot of it in this thread and it upset me a lot.  

There is no reason to be cutting.  It doesn't promote your point of view... at all.  If anything, it turns people off to it and makes them write you off as conversationally not worth while.  I see it all over this forum.  I hear people complain about it all the time.  I think this is the kind of thing Brian was talking about the other day on Reptile Radio, and it sucks.    :Taz:

----------

_AlexisFitzy_ (02-20-2014),_Denial_ (09-10-2009),Parysa (01-04-2013),_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## MelissaFlipski

> I don't really care to argue whether snakes are capable of emotion and/or to what level, because it's all speculative.  I do know humans are capable of emotion, however, and that the way some of you treat each other is downright unnecessary and appallingly unkind.  I saw a lot of it in this thread and it upset me a lot.  
> 
> There is no reason to be cutting.  It doesn't promote your point of view... at all.  If anything, it turns people off to it and makes them write you off as conversationally not worth while.  I see it all over this forum.  I hear people complain about it all the time.  I think this is the kind of thing Brian was talking about the other day on Reptile Radio, and it sucks.


Yikes.  I was wondering about that myself (on Reptile Radio).  And I see the brutality, too, though when I mention it might be aimed at me, I am labeled defensive, etc.

Anyway, there are a lot of good people and good posts, and no matter how much I personally get bashed (ooops, being defensive again there), I still love it here.  I'm learning about grains of salt.   :Very Happy:

----------


## JLC

> I don't really care to argue whether snakes are capable of emotion and/or to what level, because it's all speculative.  I do know humans are capable of emotion, however, and that the way some of you treat each other is downright unnecessary and appallingly unkind.  I saw a lot of it in this thread and it upset me a lot.  
> 
> There is no reason to be cutting.  It doesn't promote your point of view... at all.  If anything, it turns people off to it and makes them write you off as conversationally not worth while.  I see it all over this forum.  I hear people complain about it all the time.  I think this is the kind of thing Brian was talking about the other day on Reptile Radio, and it sucks.


Unfortunately, this is true of all Internet forums.  And really, any human society.  It's just that on the Internet, people feel more free to be snotty to each other than they would face-to-face.  But they're still just as snotty in their hearts in real life, if they behave that way in the semi-anonymous venue of a forum.  

The problem is, we can't legislate "nice".  We can't make rules that force people to be kind and generous and patient and understanding.  We can't control the fact that some people are just naturally abrassive, even if they are kind hearted.  And we can't control the fact that some people behave rudely just to entertain themselves and see how much drama they can start without actually breaking any rules.  

The best we can do is set a good example and use community "peer pressure" to help people learn to get along with each other.  And I'd say that BP.net does a much better job of it than 95% of all other forums of similar size and nature. 

If someone feels that this sort of thing is becoming a problem...the very best thing to do is set the example by being kind and patient to everyone, even those who annoy you.  Complaining about it openly only makes things worse by making it appear to be a far more prevelant problem than it really is.  Although I'll say this...one benefit to a public complaint is it gives me a chance to step in and remind everyone to try a little harder to be nice and remember that people aren't going to come and learn how to do better if we make them feel stupid or drive them away with sarcasm or elitist attitudes.

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_Denial_ (09-10-2009),_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## cheryls

I'm pretty convinced that our snake knows who I am and correlates my smell with care and recognizes the vibration of my voice when I come in his room at night and talk to him.  

If humans have human emotions, isn't is possible that snakes have snake emotions?  That when temps and humidity are right - when they're healthy and well fed - aren't they generally calmer and therefore happier in snake terms?

If they had nothing, their behaviors wouldn't change when uncomfortable or not well cared for.  Behavior and feelings and/or emotion go hand in hand, I believe, in all living creatures.

It might not be love as we know it - but there's definitely something there otherwise how would we know when we're doing the right thing?

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## NightLad

Ive read the bulk of these messages with interest at the developing dialogue. There have been some very good points and opinions shared on both sides of the debate.

Personally, I do not feel comfortable making a hard-line statement such as, No, snakes cant feel emotion/love. I am not, after all, a snake. I believe it is a human trait to attempt to humanize the world around us, and to use ourselves as the basis of comparison when interacting with outside forces.

Perhaps snakes are capable of experiencing a spectrum of emotion we may not be capable of ourselves. When we attempt to associate their actions with human motivations, it may seem as if they are acting purely based on instinct, but only as far as the comparison extends. I would hold that this may not always be the case.

Maybe a snake will never feel for me what I feel for it, on the same level, but I dont believe it experiences no associative emotions at all. They are not robots; no matter what side of the fence you are on in this debate, I doubt anybody would deny that each snake has its own personality. If they are capable of that level of individuality and distinction, why not some form of emotions as well?

I can only offer my own opinion and propose some statements aimed at generating contemplation. In the end, I believe the decision on whether or not to believe your snake has emotions is up to the individual.

For myself, I say yes, even if we cannot always recognize them. There is something that transcends bare instinct; people have said that lizards dont feel emotions either, but years ago when my lizard was dying, there is a reason I was the only person he wanted to hold him and was calm with right up until the end.

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## Lucero87

> For myself, I say yes, even if we cannot always recognize them. There is something that transcends bare instinct; people have said that lizards dont feel emotions either, but years ago when my lizard was dying, there is a reason I was the only person he wanted to hold him and was calm with right up until the end.


I mean i think lizards and snakes can recognize you from your scent or w/e, that doesn't mean that it loves you...dogs can express emotion, i can put food infront of my dog and know he won't bite me...dogs are capable of loving and they are loyal...and i dont think snakes or lizards can, they don't come to you if they feel scared or anything like that, they don't protect you...idk just thought i'd make that point, idk if anyone else has or not...just sayin.

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## MelissaFlipski

I just figured out what's wrong with this thread.  It's in the "General Python" thread list.  Only _Ball Pythons_, not just any old python, is capable of love.   :Surprised:   Kidding, I'm kidding!!!!!!!!!   :Very Happy:

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## KiwisHeaven

> To those who answered, My snake loves me, how did you come up with that conclusion????



My largest boa follows me around and sits at the dinner table with me, she never leaves my side, and sleeps with me in the bed. :Very Happy:

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## Patrick Long

> My largest boa follows me around and sits at the dinner table with me, she never leaves my side, and sleeps with me in the bed.


kinky

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## KiwisHeaven

> kinky



She's my best friend of 6 years...she even has wagged her tail a couple of times when I pet her....I think snakes can feel some what I think that they correlate smell to caregiver, therefore, most of them are calm, but then you have some snakes who dislike you no matter what, I mean constantly trying to bite you and hissing, thats a sign of dislike...and dislike is an emotion.  

My Big red tail, Calla, strikes at drunk people... I think she understands more then people give her credit for.

And I am kinky but not that kind of kinky...lol :Dancin' Banana:

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## MelissaFlipski

> My largest boa follows me around and sits at the dinner table with me, she never leaves my side, and sleeps with me in the bed.


What kind of boa is that?

Um... maybe you should read the thread I started on bathing/showering with your snake?

You're kidding about the tail wagging, right?  Do you mean the "cat-like," oooo that feels good wave that goes down the body?

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## Elvyra's Keeper

I believe snakes don't love in the sense that we do, but I do feel that they connect in the very basic of means. Basically, it boils down to this: Trust vs Mistrust. It's like the same conecpt with an infant, they don't love, but they do trust and rely on you for everything they need for their lives. I think snakes understand that too. When we go into their cage, they expect something from you, whether it's food, water or exercise, it's something needed to maintain their lives. They know that. They trust you.

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## littleindiangirl

> She's my best friend of 6 years...she even has wagged her tail a couple of times when I pet her....I think snakes can feel some what I think that they correlate smell to caregiver, therefore, most of them are calm, but then you have some snakes who dislike you no matter what, I mean constantly trying to bite you and hissing, thats a sign of dislike...and dislike is an emotion.  
> 
> My Big red tail, Calla, strikes at drunk people... I think she understands more then people give her credit for.
> 
> And I am kinky but not that kind of kinky...lol


So, she doesnt like drunk people? Are you sure she doesnt like the acrid smell of alcohol, the swaying, the poor motor control of a drunk. and Why is she around drunk people?

Do we have to tag such specific words like "love" and "commitment" to a snake when it would easily fit in the category of "I feel no stress with you" or  "you stress me the flip out"

Again, I still stand by my opinion that any behavior from a snake can be put into one of two broad categories of: Fear or secure.
I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

If a snake feels secure and safe around you, then take the compliment. I dont think you should try and complicate it by labeling it as affection or love. Even in the simplest sense, I don't think they have any emotions. That doesnt mean it's a robot, it's able to make its own decisions, but that doesn't mean it's "reasoning" things out at any level close to ours except basic repetition and small patterns.

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## herpmajor

I dont know if they do or not. But it is not a fact that snakes can't feel emotion. Has anyone read When Elephants Weep? It has some good points.

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## Noek

> she even has wagged her tail a couple of times when I pet her


What's next? Roll over?

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## KiwisHeaven

> What kind of boa is that?
> 
> Um... maybe you should read the thread I started on bathing/showering with your snake?
> 
> You're kidding about the tail wagging, right?  Do you mean the "cat-like," oooo that feels good wave that goes down the body?


Well some of us do keep out snakes as pets...and some of us are a little more open minded then others...
for example...did you see the mythbusters where they tried to find out if plants knew the moods of people?
If not then I think you should find it and watch it...maybe it will open your eyes a little!

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## littleindiangirl

When does open-minded cross over into gullibility?

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## Spaniard

> Well some of us do keep out snakes as pets...and some of us are a little more open minded then others...
> for example...did you see the mythbusters where they tried to find out if plants knew the moods of people?
> If not then I think you should find it and watch it...maybe it will open your eyes a little!


If you're talking about the polygraph testing they did with plants I'm pretty sure the proved it a myth, no?

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## KiwisHeaven

> If you're talking about the polygraph testing they did with plants I'm pretty sure the proved it a myth, no?


Actually I watched it the other night...It wasn't a myth

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## littleindiangirl

Uhuh... so plants recognise our moods now. Could that be attributed to carbon dioxide levels? Or what? interesting... Now the vegans have nothing to eat!

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## littleindiangirl

Perhaps this should shed some light.

http://www.the-scientist.com/article/display/15726/
http://skepdic.com/plants.html

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## KiwisHeaven

> Perhaps this should shed some light.
> 
> http://www.the-scientist.com/article/display/15726/
> http://skepdic.com/plants.html


if you ever to a communications or essay writing class, you would know that these are not good links to use for information....

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## littleindiangirl

Thanks, I have taken a few writing classes, and while it focused more on writing, I can't say they ever steered us away from "unreputable" sites. I can do more research if you'd like, but that's just what google brought me first. The general consensus of googles hits was that this was debunked many times. Not only for a poor testing practice, but because science does not label plants as having the 5 senses. 

I won't just throw all that knowledge away from the collective facts of science just because this guy thought his plants were happy and sad, or understood threats of violence towards them. Sounds all very supernatural. I even found those links from a supernatural discussion forum. Even they were having a hard time believing it. They were discussing whether or not the carbon dioxide levels were different from talking to your plants, and that vibrations from your sound waves stimulated the plants more than your thoughts or moods. But that was just a non-scientific, supernatural forum.

They are with me though on one thing, what are the vegetarians supposed to eat now??

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## Spaniard

Must have been a different show you were watching because I just checked the Mythbuster website and found this...

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode61

"
Polygraph tests indicate that all living things share some form of interconnected consciousness.

busted

Tests were done by connecting plants to a polygraph’s galvanometer, and then employing actual and imagined harm upon the plants or upon others in the plant’s vicinity. The galvanometer showed some spurious readings (showing some kind of reaction about 1/3rd of the time), so a much more accurate EEG machine was used. When Grant and Tory used a machine that dropped eggs randomly into boiling water, the plant had no reaction. Additionally, Tory’s leukocytes had no reaction when Kari shocked him with a stungun."

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## littleindiangirl

And i must comment, myth busters isn't the most scientific show ever...

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## Spaniard

> And i must comment, myth busters isn't the most scientific show ever...


I agree, but I'm just getting the facts straight.  :Wink:

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## littleindiangirl

LOL, I think it's a great show, but I have to scoff at some of their methods, if you know what I mean.

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## Spaniard

It is what it is....Entertainment.  I love watching Adam get hurt and find Jamie's mustache rather amusing.

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## KiwisHeaven

> Thanks, I have taken a few writing classes, and while it focused more on writing, I can't say they ever steered us away from "unreputable" sites. I can do more research if you'd like, but that's just what google brought me first. The general consensus of googles hits was that this was debunked many times. Not only for a poor testing practice, but because science does not label plants as having the 5 senses. 
> 
> I won't just throw all that knowledge away from the collective facts of science just because this guy thought his plants were happy and sad, or understood threats of violence towards them. Sounds all very supernatural. I even found those links from a supernatural discussion forum. Even they were having a hard time believing it. They were discussing whether or not the carbon dioxide levels were different from talking to your plants, and that vibrations from your sound waves stimulated the plants more than your thoughts or moods. But that was just a non-scientific, supernatural forum.
> 
> They are with me though on one thing, what are the vegetarians supposed to eat now??


So what you don't believe in dark matter of ghost either? those are said to be supernatural? or do you have some sad pity excuse for those too?  point being people have different beliefs of things that have not been scientifically proven....opinions are like :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:s everybody has one...and you know what? I will believe what I want, if you make fun and become a smart ass that just shows the person you are...People have different religions and believe in different things so if one person believes something the other doesn't, does that make them wrong? do they deserve to be ridiculed because they were brought up in a different religion then you?  Get your nose out of the air, and your head out of your ass...it's pointless to fight with someone who won't listen to other peoples opinions, obviously you were brought up with the point that you are right and everyone else is wrong...I will continue to believe what I want when I want regardless of what you think...because I believe in the right of free speech and being able to be who I want to be....sorry I'm not a conformist

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## littleindiangirl

> So what you don't believe in dark matter of ghost either? those are said to be supernatural? or do you have some sad pity excuse for those too?  point being people have different beliefs of things that have not been scientifically proven....opinions are like :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:s everybody has one...and you know what? I will believe what I want, if you make fun and become a smart ass that just shows the person you are...People have different religions and believe in different things so if one person believes something the other doesn't, does that make them wrong? do they deserve to be ridiculed because they were brought up in a different religion then you? 
> Get your nose out of the air, and your head out of your ass...it's pointless to fight with someone who won't listen to other peoples opinions, obviously you were brought up with the point that you are right and everyone else is wrong...I will continue to believe what I want when I want regardless of what you think...because I believe in the right of free speech and being able to be who I want to be....sorry I'm not a conformist


Your taking this waaaay to hard. You brought something interesting to talk about, and said that it was true because Myth Busters proved it. I did some research, and most places (even myth busters) say it's bogus. But this is what makes America so great! We can think whatever we like. 

Attacking me and calling me stuck up and an a**hole is a bit extreme. I regret that you took this so to heart. 
It's a debate. Everyone argues their points with evidence to support those views. I brought my small bit of evidence regarding plants feeling our moods. 
As of yet, there is no hard proof for the original debate, all we can do is debate about it!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## KiwisHeaven

> Your taking this waaaay to hard. You brought something interesting to talk about, and said that it was true because Myth Busters proved it. I did some research, and most places (even myth busters) say it's bogus. But this is what makes America so great! We can think whatever we like. 
> 
> Attacking me and calling me stuck up and an a**hole is a bit extreme. I regret that you took this so to heart. 
> It's a debate. Everyone argues their points with evidence to support those views. I brought my small bit of evidence regarding plants feeling our moods. 
> As of yet, there is no hard proof for the original debate, all we can do is debate about it!




um learn to read please...I just called you ignorant I did not call you an a**hole...I just said that OPINIONS are like a**holes EVERYONE has one...so drop it

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## littleindiangirl

> um learn to read please...I just called you ignorant I did not call you an a**hole...I just said that OPINIONS are like a**holes EVERYONE has one...so drop it


I'm sorry, you told me to get my head out of my a**.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Your reaction to this debate thread is over the top, and it's sad to see you can't approach this from a different view. When someone rebuttal's your statement, don't take it as an attack against you. It's just a rebuttal.   :Cool:

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## KiwisHeaven

> I'm sorry, you told me to get my head out of my a**.  
> 
> Your reaction to this debate thread is over the top, and it's sad to see you can't approach this from a different view. When someone rebuttal's your statement, don't take it as an attack against you. It's just a rebuttal.


Yeah I don't really see it as a rebuttal when it seems to poke fun... :Weirdface:

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## rabernet

> um learn to read please...I just called you ignorant I did not call you an a**hole...I just said that OPINIONS are like a**holes EVERYONE has one...so drop it


Kiwi - take it down a notch or two. It's an internet FORUM - which also has rules about family friendly content that you agreed to when you signed up. There are children here reading your tantrum, so watch your language. 

Don't let an internet forum get you so upset. If it makes you feel more connected to your pets to feel they are connected to you emotionally - more power to you. Don't expect that everyone will agree with you - and really, what does it matter if they do or don't? Seriously?

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## MelissaFlipski

> Well some of us do keep out snakes as pets...and some of us are a little more open minded then others...
> for example...did you see the mythbusters where they tried to find out if plants knew the moods of people?
> If not then I think you should find it and watch it...maybe it will open your eyes a little!



Trust me, I am one of the "pet" people.  We are about to get our third snake, who I believe to be my "snakie soulmate," if one can have such a connection.  I just don't buy the tail wagging.  I posted somewhere else about snakes knowing our moods through scent of hormones, blood pressure, respiration rate, heart rate, etc.  Many disagreed with me.  But I still appreciate the devil's advocate, even in myself.

BTW, I think this thread took a dive on the mud slinging.  WE are capable of love, so let's show more of it to each other.

Edit:  P.S. I voted "yes" and am darn proud of it!

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## KiwisHeaven

> Kiwi - take it down a notch or two. It's an internet FORUM - which also has rules about family friendly content that you agreed to when you signed up. There are children here reading your tantrum, so watch your language. 
> 
> Don't let an internet forum get you so upset. If it makes you feel more connected to your pets to feel they are connected to you emotionally - more power to you. Don't expect that everyone will agree with you - and really, what does it matter if they do or don't? Seriously?


yeah well I don't really think I'm the only one to blame here either...

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## rabernet

> yeah well I don't really think I'm the only one to blame here either...


Kiwi - no one was making fun of you. You were the only one that was cursing people out and reacting very negatively. The others were simply having a very civil debate with you. I'm sorry that you feel otherwise.

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## Ginevive

I thought that the whole benefit of talking to your plants, was that you were showering them with carbon dioxide as you exhaled?

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## littleindiangirl

> I thought that the whole benefit of talking to your plants, was that you were showering them with carbon dioxide as you exhaled?


I had heard that as well, which is why I was skeptical of this guy's "research" in the first place. Also, I had read somewhere, that tomatos will ripen faster when they have a red object in the plant with them, reflecting the red light. Ever hear of that?

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## Debbienflorida

BUT, I know I love him!

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## MelissaFlipski

> BUT, I know I love him!


Great point!  Early on in this debate, after I had told my husband about it, he looked over at me holding Mrs. Snake and said, "I don't know if a snake can love you; but I know you can certainly love a snake!"

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## 420 boa

I know that my ball loves me, because she tells me!! lol :Dancin' Banana:  :Dancin' Banana:

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## reptile3

I agree with you 110%!!! I am a "pet" person. All my animals/reptiles have gotten along, they all love me, & I know they know I love them!!! I also take care of my neighbors & friends pets too, which I know they love me as well!!! I voted yes too!!!! :Dancin' Banana: 





> Trust me, I am one of the "pet" people.  We are about to get our third snake, who I believe to be my "snakie soulmate," if one can have such a connection.  I just don't buy the tail wagging.  I posted somewhere else about snakes knowing our moods through scent of hormones, blood pressure, respiration rate, heart rate, etc.  Many disagreed with me.  But I still appreciate the devil's advocate, even in myself.
> 
> BTW, I think this thread took a dive on the mud slinging.  WE are capable of love, so let's show more of it to each other.
> 
> Edit:  P.S. I voted "yes" and am darn proud of it!

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## Ophiuchus

After I read the first few pages of this thread, I didn't feel the need to read any further.  But since someone else continued the thread and not me, I decided to give my $.02.

"Love" is a term that is used very loosely, but what it means to me is: showing genuinely altruistic & unconditional affection and devotion, even above self-preservation.  And I think deep down, it means something to that effect to all of us.  Yet we throw the word around so frivolously.  For example, I "love" pizza, but not in the same way I love my own mother.

Having said that, snakes (or any other herp, for that matter) are capable of emotion, much less love.  It is true that many species appear to "enjoy" human interaction (i.e. rubbing, head scratching, etc), but this is not love.  It's simply pleasurable to them, and some will learn to do things to receive that pleasurable interaction again.

"Well, what about female snakes guarding/defending their eggs/babies?" you may ask.  Again, this is not love; it is called maternal instinct.  In evolutionary terms, an animal's success is directly influenced by how much offspring it produces in its lifetime.  So, as to propogate the species, parents have invest time and energy to produce offspring to be "successful."  So, it's not a "I love my babies and I'll do anything for them" situation, but more of protecting an investment.  

However, I feel that some snakes can become used to their primary caretaker.  I've noticed on many occasions when I have my adult BP out and others are handling him...if I'm nearby, he seems to want to come back to me.  Do I think this is love?  No.  But I do think that over the years, he has become familiar with my distinct scent and when he is out being handled, he feels  more 'secure" being held by me than anyone else.  However, if he's on the ground or on my bed, he'll proceed to explore until he finds an adequate dark place.

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## MontyNSpike

> Originally Posted by KiwisHeaven  
> Well some of us do keep out snakes as pets...and some of us are a little more open minded then others...
> for example...did you see the mythbusters where they tried to find out if plants knew the moods of people?
> If not then I think you should find it and watch it...maybe it will open your eyes a little!


I saw that mythbusters and it showed that plants don't have any connection with the emotions of people. My eyes are still open though.

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## NightLad

> I saw that mythbusters and it showed that plants don't have any connection with the emotions of people. My eyes are still open though.


Plants may or may not care about the emotions of people, but they do have some level of awareness.

I've observed studies in which plants were placed in identical growing boxes. On one end of each box a sound speaker was set up. One speaker played heavy metal, the other played classical. A time-lapse video showed the plants in the heavy metal box tilting away from the speaker. The plants in the classical box moved closer to the speaker.

http://www.dovesong.com/positive_mus...xperiments.asp

A similar study on the growth of water crystals revealed that classical music produces more beautiful formations than death metal.  :Razz: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=425EQ6mhpzA

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## Jake_Snake

Snakes do not feel such emotions. However, my  snakes are tame enough so they do not perceive me as a threat -- that's good enough for me.  :Very Happy:

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## MelissaFlipski

If anyone has a cinnamin, pastel, mohave, lavendar albino, or pied that does NOT love them, PM me and I'll arrange a pick up.  I'm sure they'll love ME!   :Very Happy:

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## FireproofGorilla

I think my snake loves me.  Mila pokes her head out when I walk in the room.  She's gotten used to my scent.  It's also a *fact* that ball pythons can, over time, learn to recognize their owner's walk and will tap their noses to the glass as a greeting (if they like you.  I don't forsee this happening if you stress them out!)   :Smile:

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## Crazydude

I do realize this thread is upwards of a year old or so, but its still kicking and interesting either way, I don't feel like getting into a whole debate, i read the first 10 pages, and its sad to see so many people don't want to except snakes are not just plain instinct, My take is, we may not be like a love that's person to person, or even dog to owner, but its a form of security, that resembles many definitions of love. 

I do believe they have the ability to learn, recognize things, maybe not to a huge degree like other species, but definitely not pure instinct, 

here's a very interesting study:
http://www.anapsid.org/smartsnakes.html

A snake snubbing a Mouse but eating a rat later is not pure instinct, there has to be some decision. 

my point that i don't believe has came up, Instinct is the reactions to different environmental stimuli correct? In the wild, Humans are not really a natural fixture in the environment (one could argue they are much more so now, but anyway), With humans implemented, each snake imprints a different idea of what a human is, how it acts, how to act around it, and what to do. Some snakes curl up and run, some let you hold it, others strike, Its all there perception of humans. We are a new additive to there world, and with that, there past inherited instinct like feeding cant compare. We are new to them, so they must adapt to deal with us in a certain way. This can not be inherited instinct, there is something in there brain that makes a connection between something new, and its perception, They have to actively adjust and make connections to survive, and with new things, this is some thinking capacity call it what ever you want, but there is no set rule on whether snakes can love, or care about you, Its all based of if its connection it makes with you as a person, and what it sees you as. For example many don't see humans as a threat over time, This could be called reason, or something else, Your choice. 

Unless we can teach a snake to talk (which would be basically impossible...but really cool), and hear what it had to say, or live with its brain for a day, we can not say whether they do think consciously, or are they all instinct, and whether they see us as a threat, nuisance, or something they "love" ,

So IMO, this argument really holds no water for the fact that there are studies that can be interpreted in any way, Beliefs, and all it is is arguing over unfounded ideas that have no backing but hearsay, and what you want to believe, some of it is pride, you cant think that your snake thinks, or if you want to say your snake loves, you.  Opinions are great, but unless someone can tell me they have talked with a snake and told me what id had to say, I believe there is no answer to this, and that my perception of the snakes perceptions of me is what i believe. 
Ben

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## MelissaFlipski

Ben, interesting Article (summary by Melissa Kaplan of research done by others).  But I'm not sure it supports any idea of love.

Here is what I posit:

Can snakes feel emotion?  They can feel fear, anxiety, protectiveness (or eggs/young), and calm.  So why can't they feel other emotions?  Perhaps contentment, anger, and desire?  Should we place various emotions in a hierarchy in an attempt to distinguish between base and higher emotions?  How far up the pyramid would snakes reach?  Would different families or species reach different levels of emotional capability?

OK, now for my provocative comment, but not intended as harsh or critical - just food for thought.  Do some humans anthropomorphize, while others disallow emotional capabilities that animals ARE capable of?  Is that how we rationalize our decisions to capture, cage, and keep animals the way we do?  If we knew snakes were capable of love and sadness, would we still keep them in racks?   :Confused:

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## Crazydude

Great points, I think your post was really what i was trying to get across, but really failed at doing so...  :Good Job: 

Anyway, Its a little of both, But to say they can or cant either way is I beleive a Ignorant statement, Opinions is one thing, but flat statements and argueing it without any proof is irresponsable. 

The article i posted does not show love, I understood that, but it does show the ability to learn, which means that they can NOT be all instinct. People who say they Can Not love argue that point with the beleif that they are just pure instinct. And with that, i beleive that that article shows they are not just instinct, so it does not limit or count out the ability to love. 

Our Humanized Idea of love only works with humans, TO apply it to other things may be hard, and really get people upset, or defensive, just off of pride, or fear, or anything. 

I dont keep my guy in racks. But really for other reasons, Id more or less think that housing in racks can be done correctly, but a Adult female in a 32Qt, Or even male may be pushing it. No matter if they naturally are usually in a cave, thats not there whole world, and its not right to make it that. But again they are mainly born into this, and learn to adjust just like domesticated Dogs learned to read humans and live according to there human families.  But really thats my opinion, and again i went OT of the thing. 

Sorry guys, but really, i do enjoy this conversation, and really though it may not lead anywhere, is very insightful and i have learned some new things. 
Ben

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## MelissaFlipski

Ben, yes, I think it's an interesting conversation.

Dogs have been domesticated over thousands of years.  Though some snakes have been kept for centuries, or even thousands of years, the process of breeding them in captivity to the extent of approximating domestication has only been going on for, what, 100 years?

Also, one thing that has us all confounded is the fact that they are reptiles.  We can relate so much more to mammals.  There is still a lot of unknowns about reptiles.  To me, they are one of the frontiers of which only the tip of the iceberg has been touched.  And I'm glad I got to touch it.   :sploosh:

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## k631000

Actually, I have a response to Re: I think my snake loves me.

Check out my post... "My Snakey Poo Loves Me!" to find PROOF!!

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## Mindibun

I'm so tired of seeing this thread. Really. But I guess I don't mind it because it'll always be something people have to argue over. 

I did want to comment on something Melissa said: "Do some humans anthropomorphize, while others disallow emotional capabilities that animals ARE capable of?"

This is a good point. People always want to point the finger at those who believe snakes have emotional capacities and say, "You're just anthropomorphizing. It's silly to put human capabilities onto animals. You're too sensitive" etc. But what about turning it around? These same people seem completely unwilling to admit that animals (or in this case snakes) may have any emotion at all. They consistently return to the argument of anthropomorphization. Which would also lead me to believe that they are, "disallow[ing] emotional capabilities that animals ARE capable of". 

Think about the meat market - animals that are bred and produced specifically for meat consumption. Look at any of PETA's videos and you'll see how bad some of the conditions can be for these animals. If the persons responsible for caring for these animals and transporting them, etc. believed they were capable of feeling emotion, would they really be able to treat them in this manner? And these aren't reptiles; these are cows and pigs - animals that have been scientifically proven to have a reasonable amount of intelligence. (No, I don't have any links to sites that back this up. Go ahead and start arguing that all of this is moot now.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) But really, if animals could talk we'd all be vegetarians. It seems some people only believe an animal is capable of intelligence and emotion if it can talk - which rules out just about everything.  :Sad:  

I completely agree that there are those who anthropomorphize to an extreme. But there are also those unwilling to accept any humanoid capabilities from animals altogether. 

Not sure if I added to the "my snake does/does not love me" argument, but I just wanted to throw that out there. Good point, Melissa.  :Good Job: 

And for the record - I do believe my snakes recognize me as their handler and prefer to be in my hands than the hands of others. I don't necessarily believe that qualifies as "love" but there is some level of comfort and that's gotta count for something, right?  :Razz:

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_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016)

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## Ophiuchus

I just don't like the term "love" used with reptiles.  To me, love means "unconditional devotion and affection."  I'll admit snakes tolerate human interaction, and maybe some actually do enjoy being handled.  But I'm sorry, but I just don't believe any reptile shows unconditional love to its owner.  A dog or a horse? Probably. A cat or a macaw? Perhaps.  Fish and herps?  Just don't think so.

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## MelissaFlipski

Thank you, Mindibun!

Ophiucus, there are so many more kinds of love than unconditional among humans.  While most dogs may love unconditionally, very few humans truly do.  So does that make dogs more sophisticated b/c they are less petty?

Perhaps there is some other word for how reptiles can feel about their keepers.  At the same time, maybe the animal hierarchy is upside down.  Should humans be on the bottom since we still enslave others (both human and not), frequently have our priorities all messed up (possessions before love and health), and all too often put conditions on our love??

I know we'll never agree on this particular issue.  But at least we agree that SNAKES ROCK!!!   :Dancin' Banana:

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## Ophiuchus

> Ophiucus, there are so many more kinds of love than unconditional among humans.  While most dogs may love unconditionally, very few humans truly do.  So does that make dogs more sophisticated b/c they are less petty?


Yeah, I can understand that.  I mean, I don't "love" pizza in the same way I love my girlfriend.  But perhaps thats my point; our society throws that word around so non-chalantly and loosely that few people really know how to define it.  I mean, how many times you do actually say the word and really mean it? That, I think, is what I'm getting at.

We humans are so good at tossing the word around, so we so easily want to use it for describing how our pets see us.  So yeah, I guess "love" means different things to different people in different situations.  But in its purest definition, I doubt its the most accurate term to describe how a bearded dragon or ball python feels about its owner.

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## Jenn

Seems to me that before we can answer the question whether snakes can love or not we need to define the word love. Webster' Dictionary describes love as "an intense affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties". (Or a score of zero in tennis). 

I think it's important to remember that love is a concept only farmiliar to humans. We feel intense affection for others but that feeling is only in our heads. When we die so does our love. If a human mind is not thinking about love then the love does not exist. Love is only a concept in our heads. Love (in itself) is not a tangable thing. It's a concept. The question remains... Are snakes capable of intense affection for another out of kinship or personal ties? Practicing no, capable maybe!!!

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## MelissaFlipski

> Yeah, I can understand that.  I mean, I don't "love" pizza in the same way I love my girlfriend.  But perhaps thats my point; our society throws that word around so non-chalantly and loosely that few people really know how to define it.  I mean, how many times you do actually say the word and really mean it? That, I think, is what I'm getting at.
> 
> We humans are so good at tossing the word around, so we so easily want to use it for describing how our pets see us.  So yeah, I guess "love" means different things to different people in different situations.  But in its purest definition, I doubt its the most accurate term to describe how a bearded dragon or ball python feels about its owner.


What I meant was REAL love, just different kinds.  For example, how I love my husband is different from how I love my kids, how I love my mom, how I love my friends.  How I love my dog is even different from how I love my snakes.  Also, very few REAL loves are unconditional.  That is a very high standard not often met.

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## Oroborous

> I completely agree that there are those who anthropomorphize to an extreme. But there are also those unwilling to accept any humanoid capabilities from animals altogether. 
> 
> And for the record - I do believe my snakes recognize me as their handler and prefer to be in my hands than the hands of others. I don't necessarily believe that qualifies as "love" but there is some level of comfort and that's gotta count for something, right?


I'm sure this thread is getting pretty old, but I've seen this issue raised a couple times and couldn't resist putting in my 2 sence. I agree as well that people anthropomorphize too often and not many things bug me more. No other animal is like us humans, and that's why I love em all so much, especially reptiles! :Very Happy: 
I also believe my snake recognizes me and prefers me to other handlers, simply because we've created a trusting relationship and she feels more secure in my hands as opposed to an unfamiliar smelling and feeling stranger. I believe if you do not fear the snake it will not fear you(well, at least in many cases). Basically, snakes didn't survive millions of years by being emotional animals, they survived based on their instincts, but that doesn't make them mindless, stupid animals.

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## littleindiangirl

Do you really believe your dog loves you unconditionally? I know many people say that jumping around when you get home is a sign of love, wagging their tail, barking for you, excited to see you is all love... but I have to heartedly disagree. I tend to side with Cesar Milan on the mindset of dogs. 

(Not an exact quote, rather an idea) 
Dogs don't think about how you feel, or why your feelings are hurt when they do a certain action, they know that they can act aggressive/mopey, and get the desired result from the human. They are conditioning you.

I still have to say that animals rely specifically on learning behaviors and instincts. I don't believe they love, but their degree of security to the point of pleasure and affection is enough to make people believe that they are "loving" us as we love them.

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## Spaniard

> Do you really believe your dog loves you unconditionally? I know many people say that jumping around when you get home is a sign of love, wagging their tail, barking for you, excited to see you is all love... but I have to heartedly disagree. I tend to side with Cesar Milan on the mindset of dogs. 
> 
> (Not an exact quote, rather an idea) 
> Dogs don't think about how you feel, or why your feelings are hurt when they do a certain action, they know that they can act aggressive/mopey, and get the desired result from the human. They are conditioning you.
> 
> I still have to say that animals rely specifically on learning behaviors and instincts. I don't believe they love, but their degree of security to the point of pleasure and affection is enough to make people believe that they are "loving" us as we love them.


Cesar Milan is great; I wish I could be the East Coast Dog Whisperer  :Cool:

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## Windridge Kennels

I think all beings, including humans, dogs (and I adore dogs...) and snakes are selfish creatures who like others based on what they can get from them- for humans, that very well can be affection, understanding, companionship, validation, enjoyment of similar interests, sex, or anything else. Would you be best friends with your best friend if he or she never spoke to you, never made you laugh, have fun, or feel good?  I'm not saying humans are totally incapable of selfless devotion, but for the most part, I think everything any living creature does is motivated in SOME level by self reward. And that's OKAY! For dogs it can be food, play time, walks, ear scratches... for snakes it can be body heat. Love is hard to define, and my view of it is fairly cynical. I know I "love" my snakes because they give me joy. I find them beautiful to look at, delightful to handle, fascinating to share life with, and fun to take out and about and share with others who may previously have feared them. I am excited at the thought of breeding them, and I truly care about them as individual beings with unique personalities. I never want so many that I can't see them that way, and their welfare will always mean more to me than anything they can produce. Do they love me? Surely not by traditional definition! However, I still voted yes, because I feel like they are my companions, and I do NOT believe that snakes are complete machines, incapable of any type of feeling.

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## Houzi88

Well I want my snake to like me and care about me. But you can tell that they are comfortable around you because you're the owner. I found out that my BP is more comfortable around me because when I let my friend hold him he didn't act the same, kinda looked like he was going to attack. Haha.
 I just love my baby and wish he had the capability of loving back. The only thing he probably understands is trust. Which he trusts that I won't kill or hurt him, so he's comfortable with me.

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## megabrain

Do you mean to tell me that when my BP goes into his hide, he's _not_ writing bad poetry and listening to Morrissey?  That he's actually cold, or hot, or trying to escape from the giant, armed mammals walking around, that pick him up and maybe might want to eat him?

Huh.

(Sorry...couldn't resist.  I mean, this thread is two years old.  Sheesh.  And no, I didn't read all 27 pages of comments.)

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## MelissaFlipski

> Do you mean to tell me that when my BP goes into his hide, he's not writing bad poetry and listening to Morrissey? That he's actually cold, or hot, or trying to escape from the giant, armed mammals walking around, that pick him up and maybe might want to eat him?
> 
> Huh.
> 
> (Sorry...couldn't resist. I mean, this thread is two years old. Sheesh. And no, I didn't read all 27 pages of comments.) 
> 04-27-2008 09:49 AM


Awwww, come on now, give us snake huggers a chance and read the whole thread.  It's as entertaining as a 600-page thread on Fauna.   :Very Happy:

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_AlexisFitzy_ (02-20-2014)

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## megabrain

> Awwww, come on now, give us snake huggers a chance and read the whole thread.  It's as entertaining as a 600-page thread on Fauna.


I actually read about 6 or 7 pages before I even realized how many pages there were and how long it had been going on.  Then I skipped to the end, cuz I'm lazy.   :Very Happy:

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## TheMolenater2

> I actually read about 6 or 7 pages before I even realized how many pages there were and how long it had been going on.  Then I skipped to the end, cuz I'm lazy.


Thats exactly what I did!

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## TheMolenater2

I have to go with the statement that my snakes don't love me. They just associate me with the big thing that picks them up....

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## RoyalGuardian

If they can feel fear they can feel love.

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## crystal

> Do you mean to tell me that when my BP goes into his hide, he's _not_ writing bad poetry and listening to Morrissey?


no way my BP is a nonconformist too. :ROFL:

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## butters!

> If they can feel fear they can feel love.


holy shhhhhh! royal i feel the same way. some may call it instinct to why they act in fear but never the less it is a feeling.if something has the capability to feel fear,why not love or hate?

to say any living thing with a brain is mindless is somewhat ignorant imo.we have no idea wat these awesome creatures really think and for a human to say they cant think or feel a certain way is just,well pooop i cant think of a word but its kinda dumb.

i have only been collecting ball pythons as pets for under a year and noticed every snake is different.i have 5 now and there is one that will sit on my lap for hours w/o moving a muscle.i have another that will constantly try to escape into the couch or anywhere dark and snug.i have another that will chill on my lap for a few,then crawl to another spot and chill and etc.i have one that absolutley hates being picked up but once hes in my hands for a sec he calms down hellaz.and finally my captive hatched sweetheart.now this snake is by far the nicest ball python on the planet,no joke!call me crazy but this snake(i hate calling her a snake) shows a unlimited amount of affection.
for example
when i take her out,her ability to make me feel loved by her is felt w/o a doubt.as i said i have 4 others that are ok to be handled,but this girl.
she will firmly not tightly circle my wrist gently,rubbing her nose against me(not in a typical stressful manor)and it is awesome! 
she to me just dont have snake like tendencies.again call me nutz watever but if i hold her close to my face she will extend out to lick my lips.lol,and yes there is always fresh water in her tank even though she loves to crap in it.

ok i think i am done.lol i just wanted to share a few things and if this changes one persons opinion about how they think i will be one happy herper.thanks for reading!
philium

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (05-29-2009)

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## TooManyToys

> If they can feel fear they can feel love.


I think a guy named Walter Cannon identified something called "Fight or Flight Response.  You should read up on it.  :Wink:

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## blackcrystal22

I don't think that we can perceive a snakes emotions at all similar to ours. We can not tell nor can we be sure that the snake has emotions other than the instinctual flight, fight, and eat responses.
However, from personal experience, I feel that they may have emotions that we can not categorize as 'our' human definition of emotion. Why does our love have to be any different than their comfort?

For scientific purposes only, it has been recorded that humans and dolphins are the only two species that have recorded brain waves of mating for 'pleasure and enjoyment'. 
If such an animal like a dolphin can think this, and there has been evidence of homosexuality in apes, then why can't other species have unexplainable feelings?
In my personal experience I have noticed that certain species of snakes show different aspects of personalities than others. Corn snakes tend to be more fearful and 'flight oriented' while Balls are very docile and calm.
I have also noticed that ball pythons can associate specific smells (such as the smell of their owner) with a comfortable experience, where their natural reaction is relaxation. We learned in anatomy that the 'smell' center of the brain is the same part of the brain used to store memories, thus snakes too would have more accurate memories or recorded thoughts from smells (considering their smelling sense is much higher than ours).

So can snakes love? Maybe not the way we see it. But they can fear, be angry, be comfortable, and be unfamiliar. Maybe it is just the 'flight or fight' response and it is all instict. But I think that if every animal was entirely guided by instinct, there would be no variability in personalities that some people claim snakes don't have. 
I have seen variability, comfort, along with different aspects of personality that may not just be an aspect of fear or comfort, but maybe more.

Maybe we can never truely tell.

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## TimmyG

Your human brain anatomy is a little off. the ofcatory cortex is located on the supperficial (outside) aspect of the brain. Emotions are controlled however by the limbic system's amygdala which is locaded closer to the cor of the brain. But, the limbic association cortex is ajacent to the olfactory cortex (this is thought to be why scent is closly related to memory in humans). Snake's brains are organized much more differently than a humans and lack a well developed cortex all together.

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## darkangel

TimmyG hit the nail on the head.  :Good Job: 
Smells trigger those strong memories due to the proximity of the memory center.



> So can snakes love? Maybe not the way we see it. But they can fear, be angry, be comfortable, and be unfamiliar. Maybe it is just the 'flight or fight' response and it is all instict. But I think that if every animal was entirely guided by instinct, there would be no variability in personalities that some people claim snakes don't have. 
> I have seen variability, comfort, along with different aspects of personality that may not just be an aspect of fear or comfort, but maybe more.
> 
> Maybe we can never truely tell.
> 
> *For scientific purposes only, it has been recorded that humans and dolphins are the only two species that have recorded brain waves of mating for 'pleasure and enjoyment'. 
> If such an animal like a dolphin can think this, and there has been evidence of homosexuality in apes, then why can't other species have unexplainable feelings?*


As far as species besides our own (and actually those species are bonobos and dolphins) that's not exaaaaaactly true.  It depends on what you mean by "pleasure". The only thing that can be said conclusively is that they have sex at arbitrary times or regularly.  Monogamy, polygamy, homosexuality, and masturbation exists within nature as well, but obviously it's in a different way then it exists within human beings.  We've built cultures and businesses around our sexuality.

I still maintain that reptiles absolutely do not have capability for emotion.  It's just my opinion, but I think it's pretty naive to think they do.  Reptiles were designed to respond purelyto their sharp instincts, and there is _absolutely nothing wrong with that_.

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## blackcrystal22

> Your human brain anatomy is a little off. the ofcatory cortex is located on the supperficial (outside) aspect of the brain. Emotions are controlled however by the limbic system's amygdala which is locaded closer to the cor of the brain. But, the limbic association cortex is ajacent to the olfactory cortex (this is thought to be why scent is closly related to memory in humans). Snake's brains are organized much more differently than a humans and lack a well developed cortex all together.


I don't know the exact details about it. I just knew something about smells being in a similar section to the brain and triggering memories. I just started anatomy a week ago and it was mentioned in a movie.  :Embarassed: 




> TimmyG hit the nail on the head. 
> Smells trigger those strong memories due to the proximity of the memory center.
> 
> 
> As far as species besides our own (and actually those species are bonobos and dolphins) that's not exaaaaaactly true.  It depends on what you mean by "pleasure". The only thing that can be said conclusively is that they have sex at arbitrary times or regularly.  Monogamy, polygamy, homosexuality, and masturbation exists within nature as well, but obviously it's in a different way then it exists within human beings.  We've built cultures and businesses around our sexuality.
> 
> I still maintain that reptiles absolutely do not have capability for emotion.  It's just my opinion, but I think it's pretty naive to think they do.  Reptiles were designed to respond purelyto their sharp instincts, and there is _absolutely nothing wrong with that_.


I don't disagree with you. But I think there has to be something else that can form their personalities as not all snakes and reptiles act the same way. Those effects that run them off course of their pure instinctual behaviors makes it possible for other environmental factors to have an effect on them.
Technically, if a snake was run by pure instinct alone, wouldn't they all act exactly the same no matter what the situation?

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## AaronP

I love my snakes but they don't return the favor.

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## WickedBalls

Every week my BP's show me they love me by eating all their dinner and never complaini.I wish my twin sons would do that for me after I cook. :Smile:

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## Ophiuchus

Its all conditioned behavior and association with familiarity.  Snakes are calmer with people they're familiar with (i.e. more secure with familiar settings, etc).  No love or liking involved, IMO.

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## SecurityStacey

My snake doesn't love me... but I'm sure he prefers me (in fact on know this because he'll ball up when someone else holds him and relaxes when I hold him) but that is only because I'm familiar.  I'm sure if my boyfriend (or anyone else for that matter) handled him as much as I did he would be relaxed with them too.

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## Jojos

I don't really care about the facts, my ball just loves being rubbed gently on the belly. If he would ate me, he wouldn't stay on me. I know I love him ALOT! :Good Job: 

I know he recognizes me and my youngest. He likes us both and when he sees her, he immediately gets on her. The same for me. :Blow kiss: 

So that's my response to your poll even if a snake can't feel anything.

Have a nice day!  :Razz:

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## SamuraiZr0

> no,snakes don't have feelings they're mindless.


snakes are not mindless they are void of the emotions that mamals have that's all... snakes are actually quite smart.I mean not  teachable smart but in their own right..

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## MonitorLove

My snakes love me because I like to think they do, and I love them quite dearly. 


Heck, I provide them with heat, shelter, water, homegrown ratties. Whats not to love?!  :Very Happy: 

They haven't tried to assassinate me in my sleep yet either...yeah, I'd say it's love  :Wink:

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## RoyalGuardian

I don't think your giving snakes enough credit. They have fundamental or if in our case Primal emotions. Kyros is my baby. He goes with me everywhere when its warm enough. I can say that for most of you that have more than 2 snakes that you don't really spend as much time with yours as I do. I am constantly watching him. I have noticed little bits and peices of  deeper hidden emotions than one would think to ever look for. That said I belive that my snake loves me. His constant trust and his will to always have an up beat attitude no matter if we are at Chipotle, Borders, the plaza, or the Rennaisance festival. He loves his outings. He never tries to get away or freaks out, he stays close to me just chillin until I pick him up.  Kyros is a very interesting ball python. He never tries to escape, only just exploring. Calypso on the other hand is one fast little lady.  And there is a difference.  I don't half@$$ anything with my snakes( I'm not saying you guys half@$$ at all I'm just making a point). They get mice that I breed so I know they are getting the highest quality food I could offer them. The only water I use for them is purified Spring water( includes misting, soaking, and drinking water which is changed daily).   and No one touches either of my babies without first using purell. I believe that my Python Paradise helps these emotions show alittle more. Ask anyone who has had a ball python and has seen Kyros if he has emotions and they will tell you "oh heck yeah! more than my BP". Kyros is my little prince and his attitude will show you just how much of a charmer he is. I'll make a youtube video and prove to you that snakes do have emotions!

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## jimmyfoxca

> My boa loves to pee on me...does that count?


LOL That is so sick. I am glad that has never happened to me. Your snake must love you... but mine does not love me.

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## Muze

One of my BPs always pokes her little (ok, really big) head out of her hide to see me when I come into the room.  I think this is so adorable.

Same snake bit the crap out of me last night...lol.  It is always hungry and that is one of its main concerns in life.  The other concerns are that she is not in danger, and that her tub is clean.  And I'm sure pretty sure breeding will be added to that list very soon.

I think that snakes learn to trust their keepers (some-not all), and that is the extent of the bond.  & I am perfectly happy with that (actually, I am in awe of that).  And as their keeper, what I feel towards them is an amazing amount of responsibility (& respect).  Every aspect of their daily lives is in my care.  & I must meet their needs everyday for the rest of each of their lives.  However, I cannot compare how I feel about my snakes to how I feel about my dogs.  My dogs are like friends (ok, silly ones that can't take anything seriously,with a decreased mental capacity).

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## sg1trogdor

My god this thread is still going I think we should make a poll on which one will go longer the "last one to post wins" or this one.  lol.

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## Ophiuchus

> My god this thread is still going I think we should make a poll on which one will go longer the "last one to post wins" or this one.  lol.


No kidding, right?  This dead horse has been beaten beyond recognition.

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## rabernet

> I don't think your giving snakes enough credit. They have fundamental or if in our case Primal emotions. Kyros is my baby. He goes with me everywhere when its warm enough. I can say that for most of you that have more than 2 snakes that you don't really spend as much time with yours as I do. I am constantly watching him. I have noticed little bits and peices of  deeper hidden emotions than one would think to ever look for. That said I belive that my snake loves me. His constant trust and his will to always have an up beat attitude no matter if we are at Chipotle, Borders, the plaza, or the Rennaisance festival. He loves his outings. He never tries to get away or freaks out, he stays close to me just chillin until I pick him up.  Kyros is a very interesting ball python. He never tries to escape, only just exploring. Calypso on the other hand is one fast little lady.  And there is a difference.  I don't half@$$ anything with my snakes( I'm not saying you guys half@$$ at all I'm just making a point). They get mice that I breed so I know they are getting the highest quality food I could offer them. The only water I use for them is purified Spring water( includes misting, soaking, and drinking water which is changed daily).   and No one touches either of my babies without first using purell. I believe that my Python Paradise helps these emotions show alittle more. Ask anyone who has had a ball python and has seen Kyros if he has emotions and they will tell you "oh heck yeah! more than my BP". Kyros is my little prince and his attitude will show you just how much of a charmer he is. I'll make a youtube video and prove to you that snakes do have emotions!


Please tell me you're not taking your snake into restaurants - I read that wrong, right? 

We're fighting to keep our rights to have these wonderful animals, we don't need people to be irresponsible and force our snakes on others by toting them along with us in public.

I promise you - you are getting more pleasure from this than Kyros is. Try not to love him to death. I mean that with the most respect.

----------

_gothkenny_ (11-02-2008),JLC (10-29-2008),_littleindiangirl_ (11-02-2008),_Spaniard_ (11-02-2008),__Venom__ (11-02-2008)

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## _Venom_

> I don't think your giving snakes enough credit. They have fundamental or if in our case Primal emotions. Kyros is my baby. He goes with me everywhere when its warm enough. I can say that for most of you that have more than 2 snakes that you don't really spend as much time with yours as I do. I am constantly watching him. I have noticed little bits and peices of  deeper hidden emotions than one would think to ever look for. That said I belive that my snake loves me. His constant trust and his will to always have an up beat attitude no matter if we are at Chipotle, Borders, the plaza, or the Rennaisance festival. He loves his outings. He never tries to get away or freaks out, he stays close to me just chillin until I pick him up.  Kyros is a very interesting ball python. He never tries to escape, only just exploring. Calypso on the other hand is one fast little lady.  And there is a difference.  I don't half@$$ anything with my snakes( I'm not saying you guys half@$$ at all I'm just making a point). They get mice that I breed so I know they are getting the highest quality food I could offer them. The only water I use for them is purified Spring water( includes misting, soaking, and drinking water which is changed daily).   and No one touches either of my babies without first using purell. I believe that my Python Paradise helps these emotions show alittle more. Ask anyone who has had a ball python and has seen Kyros if he has emotions and they will tell you "oh heck yeah! more than my BP". Kyros is my little prince and his attitude will show you just how much of a charmer he is. I'll make a youtube video and prove to you that snakes do have emotions!


Is this a serious post?

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## littleindiangirl

> I don't think your giving snakes enough credit. They have fundamental or if in our case Primal emotions.


 :sploosh:  :ROFL:

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## gothkenny

Love is a very complex emotion. Snakes, and other animals, in my opinion, cannot feel it. They feel happiness and they can like things that you do but thats it. They just associate you with good things. It depends on if you would define love as that.

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## Egapal

I can not believe I am adding to this thread.  Ok I don't believe that love is a complex emotion.  I have a hard time with the idea that animals have instinct and humans have emotions.  Humans have instinct just like any other animal.  If aliens were to describe us they could describe all of what we do as instinct driven.  Now before anyone comes back with crap about poetry and song writing you should know that all of that is crap as well.  Male peacocks have giant tails that they show to females to attract them.  They do little dances with there tail out.  They either attract a mate or a predator.  All of the stupid complicated stuff we do is to get food, find a mate, protect our young or some other base instinct.  Now if you have all those things covered then you do some random crap sure.  Look at male wolfs that are not part of a pack.  They run around and play and do dumb things unrelated to instinct as well.  Emotions are nothing special they are just complicated instincts.  The problem is that people refuse to accept that very complicated things can come out of emotions.  Look at ants.  These are some of the simplest of creatures and yet look what they can do with a hand full of nerve cells bunched together.  Snakes have memory and instinct and out of that complicated actions emerge.  Love is what we call a specific instinctive reaction to something.  So if you want to say your snake loves you I am fine with that but keep in mind that its not the same love you feel.  Dogs don't even feel the same kind of love that we feel.  Their version of love is a mix of respect, fear and comfort.  If you don't think so then chances are your dog is the pack leader of your family, I weep for you.

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JohnAvilla (09-27-2009)

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## littleindiangirl

Humans don't have instincts. Look up the definition of instinct. We have many behaviors and drives that very closely resemble animal instincts, but when looking at the criteria of instincts, nothing humans do, in the entire species on the planet, can be labeled as an instinct.

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## _Venom_

So you keep your hand on a hot stove when you accidently lean on it?

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## MelissaFlipski

> Humans don't have instincts. Look up the definition of instinct. We have many behaviors and drives that very closely resemble animal instincts, but when looking at the criteria of instincts, nothing humans do, in the entire species on the planet, can be labeled as an instinct.


Humans are animals, too.  We have lots of instincts - protect self and family, procreate, etc.  I agree with Venom.

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## Melicious

> I can not believe I am adding to this thread.  Ok I don't believe that love is a complex emotion.  I have a hard time with the idea that animals have instinct and humans have emotions.  Humans have instinct just like any other animal.  If aliens were to describe us they could describe all of what we do as instinct driven.  Now before anyone comes back with crap about poetry and song writing you should know that all of that is crap as well.  Male peacocks have giant tails that they show to females to attract them.  They do little dances with there tail out.  They either attract a mate or a predator.  All of the stupid complicated stuff we do is to get food, find a mate, protect our young or some other base instinct.  Now if you have all those things covered then you do some random crap sure.  *Look at male wolfs that are not part of a pack.  They run around and play and do dumb things unrelated to instinct as well.*  Emotions are nothing special they are just complicated instincts.  The problem is that people refuse to accept that very complicated things can come out of emotions.  Look at ants.  These are some of the simplest of creatures and yet look what they can do with a hand full of nerve cells bunched together.  Snakes have memory and instinct and out of that complicated actions emerge.  Love is what we call a specific instinctive reaction to something.  So if you want to say your snake loves you I am fine with that but keep in mind that its not the same love you feel.  Dogs don't even feel the same kind of love that we feel.  Their version of love is a mix of respect, fear and comfort.  If you don't think so then chances are your dog is the pack leader of your family, I weep for you.



You had me until there.  Male wolves that are not part of a pack "play and horse around" because they're testing the waters with each other.  Play combat leads to real combat, and one day, the strongest of the male pack will challenge the Alpha of another pack with females.  In the end, that play fighting is part of a greater instinct to find a pack to take over and procreate.

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## _Venom_

> You had me until there.  Male wolves that are not part of a pack "play and horse around" because they're testing the waters with each other.  Play combat leads to real combat, and one day, the strongest of the male pack will challenge the Alpha of another pack with females.  In the end, that play fighting is part of a greater instinct to find a pack to take over and procreate.


HAHAAH
That's freaking funny how he said hey play around and do dumb stuff.

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## Taz

This is almost like the debate had by philosophers over mind body dualism. If the mind and brain are one, then in fact snakes might not be able to feel emotion. however if emotion is more than just a serious of corresponding neurological reactions to stimuli, then we can never really know.

just my two cents.

TF

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## MelissaFlipski

I guess we just need to teach our snakes to talk.  Then they can answer the question themselves.

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## grammie

I KNOW that my bp loves me. She lays her head on my hands, gives me kisses and I feel the love. You can't convince me otherwise, sorry. And I love her back. She's as loving as any dog or cat I've ever had.

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## littleindiangirl

> So you keep your hand on a hot stove when you accidently lean on it?


It's called a reflex.  :Wink:  Don't confuse that with instinct.

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## littleindiangirl

> Humans are animals, too.  We have lots of instincts - protect self and family, procreate, etc.  I agree with Venom.


Look up the definition for instinct, which I feel is very thorough. Protecting ones self is not labelled an instinct, considering many people can easily over come this *drive**hint*, look at the multitudes of people that hurt themselves daily on purpose or their family.

Procreating is also considered a *drive*. 

Again, look up the definitions and classifications of instinct. These are terms that are taught in grade school all the way up to college. Well, at least I was...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## _Venom_

It can also be called instinct.
It's debatable.

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## 8Ball

Who's to say that snakes are not sentient beings? I've heard many people say that snakes feel fear, or they feel safe, or they feel stress. Why not feel love then? Some are saying that they may have feelings but not complex enough to be called love. Yet no one can even seem to agree on an absolute definition of love. Everyones individual life experiences of love are different so our definitions of love will be slightly different. At the very least you can say that no one can read a snakes mind so it seems kind of ridiculous to say that they "absolutely" can or can not love. I don't know if my snake loves me but he seems comfortable around. My question is this; 'Why is it so offensive to some that others think their snakes may love them.'?

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## Typical_08

> Who's to say that snakes are not sentient beings?



You may be confusing sentience with sapience. 

Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively. (note: feel or preceive does not mean emotion)

Sapience is the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment.

They sound similar, but they are very different. 

Sentience. If I go near that animal, it will eat me. 

Sapience, if I go near that animal it will try to eat me, it will go for my thoat first, so I have to protect that. I can pick up that heavy stick and use it as a club. Then hit it over the head until it stops moving, and then I can eat it.

Additionally. Emotions are nothing more than chemical impulses in the brain. We have them, some other animals have them, snakes do not. Their brains are not capable of replicating these chemical impulses.

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## littleindiangirl

> It can also be called instinct.
> It's debatable.


Where could it be debated? :Confused:  

Have you taken my advice to look up _instinct_, and also _reflex_ to see how they relate (or don't) to each other?

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## _Venom_

Yeah, I did.
I also looked up "do humans have instinct" and it was debatable as I said.

Reflex and instinct definitions share parts of each other too.

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## MelissaFlipski

> ...look at the multitudes of people that hurt themselves daily on purpose or their family.


Those people do that due to psychological imbalances - therefore are not the norm.

To me, drive = instinct.  People over come their drives because they are rational beings, not because they don't have instincts.

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## blackcrystal22

> Yeah, I did.
> I also looked up "do humans have instinct" and it was debatable as I said.
> 
> Reflex and instinct definitions share parts of each other too.


Are we debating if humans have instinct? Because there are facts to support that they do, not many, but they are there. Humans _eat_ and _reproduce_ naturally, even if they had little human contact, what would you call that?
Survival instincts. ;]

In psychology, we learned that instincts and reflexes are both natural and begin at birth. However, reflexes are only reactions to some type of action. Instincts are actions in themselves without having an action to feed or naturally cause them.  :Good Job:

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## Typical_08

> To me, drive = instinct.  People over come their drives because they are rational beings, not because they don't have instincts.


Please explain to me why a man would jump on a grenade to save his buddies when he has a wife and child waiting for him at home then. Drive in the human equation does not equal instinct.  

Additionally, given the answer you give, how does this relate to snakes being sapient or having emotions? Will a snake give itself so another snake of another bloodline can return to care for their young?

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## JamieLynn

I feel just because an animal (any animal even a snake) is not human it does not mean they do have feelings. Do your cats and dogs love you? if any animal can feel they all can. 
But trying to give human traits to an animal gets complicated. (after all it is we that do not know what we are, we are animals)

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## Typical_08

> I feel just because an animal (any animal even a snake) is not human it does not mean they do have feelings. Do your cats and dogs love you? if any animal can feel they all can. 
> But trying to give human traits to an animal gets complicated. (after all it is we that do not know what we are, we are animals)


Not exactly. They, like other pack animals, know that a strong bond between pack members means that they are safer. By following your commands, if you are a strong leader, that the pack will maintain its stability. Dogs and cats do produce some similar chemical impulses to humans, though they are a more primitive form. Snakes do not.

One of the largest problems we have as humans is trying to anthropomorphize our pets and end up treating them like they are humans. This often ends up bad. A dog is a dog, a cat is a cat, and a snake is a snake. Though, dogs and cats have been domesticated for a very long time, and it is only common sense to know that an animal that has been domesticated for near fifteen thousand years will end up picking up some of the basic character traits of their masters. But this still does not mean that dogs are humans. Nor should they be treated as such.

Your dog does not want or need a friend, they need a strong leader, same as a cat. Snakes want neither. They only want food and a way to pass on their DNA.

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## Wh00h0069

> Not exactly. They, like other pack animals, know that a strong bond between pack members means that they are safer. By following your commands, if you are a strong leader, that the pack will maintain its stability. Dogs and cats do produce some similar chemical impulses to humans, though they are a more primitive form. Snakes do not.
> 
> One of the largest problems we have as humans is trying to anthropomorphize our pets and end up treating them like they are humans. This often ends up bad. A dog is a dog, a cat is a cat, and a snake is a snake. Though, dogs and cats have been domesticated for a very long time, and it is only common sense to know that an animal that has been domesticated for near fifteen thousand years will end up picking up some of the basic character traits of their masters. But this still does not mean that dogs are humans. Nor should they be treated as such.
> 
> Your dog does not want or need a friend, they need a strong leader, same as a cat. Snakes want neither. They only want food and a way to pass on their DNA.


Very well said. I agree 100%!  :Good Job:

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Typical_08 (12-31-2008)

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## _Venom_

Hasn't what Typical said been said a dozen times in this thread?

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## Typical_08

Probably, and I think I said it twice. But few people take the time to read thirty plus pages of responses and opinions.

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## DutchHerp

My JCP always comes to me when he gets out of his cage, instead of my sisters or anybody else.

At least he shows that he remembers me.

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## tigerretic76

its amazing that people think their snake(s) loves them.  love doesnt exist, only acception and toleration.  "love" is an abstract thought and action.  do i "love" my wife?  i accept her and tolerate her, therefore i am comfortable with her.  snakes tolerate and accept us.  snakes base their acceptance and tolerance on comfortability with a place or object.  my big tiger retic is comfortable with accepting and tolerating anything, anybody, anytime.  my albino tiger only is accepts and tolerates me.  i can handle him, but he has bitten 4 other people that have tried to handle him.  my yellowhead that i used to have only tolerated and accepted my wife never bit her, but bit me several times.  a snake in the wild also acts this way.  there was a documentary on the discovery channel i watched, that filmed a reticulated python in its natural state.  it would not venture more than 4 square miles around where it was used to.  and it had one tree that it always coiled by and under when resting or digesting food.  it picked up something on that particular tree it accepted and tolerated, feeling comfortable with that tree.  it never went to another tree or bush for security and/or comfort.  obviously it went to other trees and bushes and what have you, but when it had just consumed a meal, or was shedding or just resting, it always retreated back to that same tree.  it was a documentary spanning a 6 month research on this python

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## Egapal

> You had me until there.  Male wolves that are not part of a pack "play and horse around" because they're testing the waters with each other.  Play combat leads to real combat, and one day, the strongest of the male pack will challenge the Alpha of another pack with females.  In the end, that play fighting is part of a greater instinct to find a pack to take over and procreate.


Man its funny how a species that's smarter than a wolf can ascribe all of the male wolves actions to a greater instinct.  I wonder if a species smarter than man could ascribe all the complex things humans do to a greater instinct.  No that's crazy we are after all humans.




> Please explain to me why a man would jump on a grenade to save his buddies when he has a wife and child waiting for him at home then. Drive in the human equation does not equal instinct.


So we meet again Typical_08, I am going to go with "To protect his family."  No I am not nor have I been in the military but I have many family members who have and I have discussed this very topic with a psych professor or three.  A man would jump on a grenade, and not every man mind you, to protect his buddies when he has been conditioned to believe those buddies are his family and he has been removed from his family for an extended period of time.  Societies entire purpose is to override the instincts we have that do not better the group and bolster the ones that do.  The military does the same thing in its training to a greater degree.




> Additionally, given the answer you give, how does this relate to snakes being sapient or having emotions? Will a snake give itself so another snake of another bloodline can return to care for their young?


Again I am with you on this one.  Snakes just don't have the parts of the brain for this kinda thing.

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## Typical_08

> So we meet again Typical_08, I am going to go with "To protect his family."  No I am not nor have I been in the military but I have many family members who have and I have discussed this very topic with a psych professor or three.  A man would jump on a grenade, and not every man mind you, to protect his buddies when he has been conditioned to believe those buddies are his family and he has been removed from his family for an extended period of time.  Societies entire purpose is to override the instincts we have that do not better the group and bolster the ones that do.  The military does the same thing in its training to a greater degree.


I would agree. It has nothing to do with instinct. But it has more to do than just them being family. I don't know if I can accuratly explain it. 




> Again I am with you on this one.  Snakes just don't have the parts of the brain for this kinda thing.


Thank you.

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## blackcrystal22

> its amazing that people think their snake(s) loves them.  love doesnt exist, only acception and toleration.  "love" is an abstract thought and action.  do i "love" my wife?  i accept her and tolerate her, therefore i am comfortable with her.  snakes tolerate and accept us.  snakes base their acceptance and tolerance on comfortability with a place or object.  my big tiger retic is comfortable with accepting and tolerating anything, anybody, anytime.  my albino tiger only is accepts and tolerates me.  i can handle him, but he has bitten 4 other people that have tried to handle him.  my yellowhead that i used to have only tolerated and accepted my wife never bit her, but bit me several times.  a snake in the wild also acts this way.  there was a documentary on the discovery channel i watched, that filmed a reticulated python in its natural state.  it would not venture more than 4 square miles around where it was used to.  and it had one tree that it always coiled by and under when resting or digesting food.  it picked up something on that particular tree it accepted and tolerated, feeling comfortable with that tree.  it never went to another tree or bush for security and/or comfort.  obviously it went to other trees and bushes and what have you, but when it had just consumed a meal, or was shedding or just resting, it always retreated back to that same tree.  it was a documentary spanning a 6 month research on this python


Love is a human emotion that is shown as a significant amount of care towards one person over many others. Your stating an opinion like it is a fact. Love is a real word with a real definition, and exists as a meaning.
You could tolerate and be comfortable with tons of people, that's what makes your wife different.

If I was just 'tolerated', I wouldn't tolerate that.

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## Typical_08

> that's what makes your wife different.


I think he is talking about Helen Fisher's theory on mammalian mating drive. She uses the word tolerate to describe the temporary bond between solitary mammals that stay with the mate until after the young is born. I do not believe that she uses this word to describe love in the human response.

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## tigerretic76

what i am meaning is that there is infinite number of ways to show "love" and to "interpret" love.  therefore love is an abstract emotion, thought or action.  thats exactly my point, what makes my wife, or my parents or my best friend or joe smith off the street different.  i accept and tolerate each person for who they are, what they represent and offer me.

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## Egapal

Just because there are many ways to show love does not mean that those acts are indicative of love.  For instance.  When I see my girlfriend has been working on a paper for her grad program for 3 hours an has no drink in front of her I will go to the kitchen and get her a bottle of water.  That act is based on my love and affection.  A cop can interrogate a witness for only so long before they are legally obligated to provide water.  Not out of love.  You may interpret your snakes actions as love but the question is what are your snakes motivations.  Now I hate to admit this but I did some research on reptilian brains and I have to say that I am going to change my answer to support a very very loose interpretation of the word love.  I still believe that love is a complex emotions that requires parts of the brain that snakes don't have but, they do have a limbic system and some would argue that the basics of emotions come from the limbic system.  So sure your snake has snake love for you.  Snake love is nothing like human love though.

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## tigerretic76

well, i guess to each his/her own on the opinions and thoughts on the crazy emotion called, "love"

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## Whiffa

Love is a complex emotion in the brain. It requires chemical impulses and neurons firing as well as physical responses to stimulation. Love comes from a specific portion of the brain.

Snakes physically lack the portion of the brain that controls emotion, thus they cannot feel any sort of attachment.

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## littleindiangirl

> Are we debating if humans have instinct? Because there are facts to support that they do, not many, but they are there. Humans _eat_ and _reproduce_ naturally, even if they had little human contact, what would you call that?
> Survival instincts. ;]
> 
> In psychology, we learned that instincts and reflexes are both natural and begin at birth. However, reflexes are only reactions to some type of action. Instincts are actions in themselves without having an action to feed or naturally cause them.


In psychology, you were taught wrong. Humans have drives, behaviors, reflexes, but not instincts, and there are facts to support it.  :Wink:

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## DutchHerp

> In psychology, you were taught wrong. Humans have drives, behaviors, reflexes, but not instincts, and there are facts to support it.


Why would people not have instincts?  Sorry, I'm not educated on this matter, but it does seem really interesting and it always seemed obvious people did have instincts.. after all, we're still mammals.

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## PythonBreeder

> I am just gobsmacked 4 people think their snake loves them


I cannot believe these people. :Surprised:  :Surprised:  :Surprised:  WOW! I believe snakes have emotions.

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## _Venom_

> Why would people not have instincts?  Sorry, I'm not educated on this matter, but it does seem really interesting and it always seemed obvious people did have instincts.. after all, we're still mammals.


I want to know this too... :Weirdface: 

Are emotions not instincts?
We do not learn them.

When native americans, europeans, asians, etc. had not met each other they all stilled smiled, cried, tried to get away etc. with no one teaching them how to. All ages do the same too....

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zhang317 (03-20-2009)

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## demonicchild

Snakes do not feel love. I do feel that they have emotions to some degree, but none so complex as love, hate, ect.

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## Malpaso

can anyone define difference between loving someone and like someone? Is it like "3xlike=love"?

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## Neal

I did alot of studying and researching into this matter, and i've talked to alot of people well qualified in this field.

Yes - Snakes do lack the part of the brain that shows affection, but some handicapped people also lack that same part of the brain, and are still able to show affection.

Meaning - People/Animals learn from interactions, what to trust/not trust. Look at it from everybodys point of view before you down them. Snakes learn to trust you overtime through periodic handling, and showing them that you will cause no harm to them, So why can't they learn to show affection in their "own" way?

Yes - I believe snakes don't show "affection" as you would call it, but they have senses that can sense fear, aswell as other emotions, that is evident, so in theory when you're upset or at the bottom of the rope. Yes, I do believe snakes sense somethings wrong, and in their "own" way show a bit of affection. Alot of what people call affection they just see something their snake does, and trys to match it with affection.

Off subject - That's like dogs for instance, literally they cannot show affection. But wait how can that be? My dog rubs his nose on me, paws always wanting to be pet, that's not actually affection, its your dog being dominate, space is gold in the dog world. Now I do believe dogs can learn just as well as some other animals, they have several reported stories of when a Pet owner dies, his animal died a few days/weeks later, or if you have 2 animals that are close to each other, when 1 dies, the other one follows. Animals learn just like we humans do, but alot of what we percieve to be affection isnt.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (05-29-2009),zhang317 (03-29-2009)

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## Typical_08

My dog rubs his nose on me, paws always wanting to be pet, that's not actually affection, its your dog being dominate[/quote]

Not exactly. It depends on what the rest of their body is doing during the action. 

Showing dominance is not just one singular act. In one case pawing can actually be showing subservience, but the same action with a slightly different body posture can be dominance.

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_zackw419_ (05-31-2009)

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## _Venom_

How come I never see any new posts????
All I see is Typical's post where he talks about his dog.

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## dr del

Hi,

When people vote in the poll at the top of these threads the forum software treats it exactly the same as it would a new post and bumps the thread to the top of the list.

There doesn't seem to be any way of stopping it AFAIK.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 


dr del

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

I think snakes are not capable of "love" the way humans like to imagine it.

But, I think all animals are inherently self serving (including humans) and that's okay! It's the secret to a well trained dog for sure... (ie, dogs do what works in their worlds to get what they want). I am a big time dog nut... and dominance is definitely NOT what dogs are all about. It's but a small aspect of their complex personalities. 

At any rate, I think snakes can certainly experience fear, pleasure, and other basic feelings. I have ten of them, and they have personalities- or if you can't deal with that term, they each have their own special quirks and preferences. Some climb, some do not. Some hide, some prefer to soak. Some are active and curious, some are lazy and chill. One is aggressive, the rest are not. 

I'm not positive they recognize us, though I would think it is possible, since we have a unique scent.

I voted no, but I don't think snakes are completely, literally mindless.

Even my fish have personality quirks and are "trained" and come to the top when they see me as opposed to my DH because I feed them. Love? No. But still proof they have brains and deserve compassion and care.

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## nicktreb

I sometimes wonder if humans are actually capable of "love" or if love even excist.. seems like make believe to me. I know what it feels like to like someone ALOT.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (05-31-2009)

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## Crazy4Herps

I'm on the fence about this. I think that some BPs learn to enjoy being taken out of the enclosure and handled by people who treat them well and don't hurt them. I think that BPs can definitely remember individual people. I think that if a someone (a child, maybe) who has handled the snake roughly in the past tries to handle the snake again, the snake will remember and try to get away. Also, I think that with someone (i.e. the snake's primary owner) who has handled the snake on a regular basis, supports its body, doesn't move quickly, and has never hurt the snake, the snake will be much more relaxed.



In short, I don't think that snakes can "bond" with people, but they can learn to enjoy being with people whom they trust (people who treat them well). Anyways, instead of saying all that, I just tell people that my snakes love me.  :Very Happy:  (Thinking about pissy-pants Sangre loving anything makes me laugh  :sploosh:  )

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## Crazy4Herps

> I know my snake doesn't care. It does not feel emotions


I do not agree with this. I don't think that snakes can "bond", but I do believe they can feel emotions. As I said above, trust is an emotion. I think that my snakes would *care* if I died, not because they would miss me, but because they would much rather be handled by me, who they trust, than by anybody else.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (06-03-2009)

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

It actually upsets me that anyone with live animals would think they have literally NO EMOTIONS AT ALL (fear, contentment, the state of being annoyed- those *are* emotions, and recognizing that your animals experience at least those basic emotions does not mean you think your snakes love you).

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JohnAvilla (09-27-2009)

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## _Venom_

Those aren't emotions.
Just reaction to stimuli

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (06-03-2009)

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

Well, that is true, but can't that be said of ANY emotion (including a human reacting to stimuli and feeling sorrow, love, happiness, etc)?

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## StormSerpent

> I think alot of people try to compare reptiles to something else; mindless like insects/fish or compassionate like dogs/cats/etc. Here's my take on it:
> 
> I am very big on biology and feel that snakes will never feel anything that equates to human love/emotion but I do feel all snakes will feel an emotion one way or another.
> 
> I look to the Triune Brain model based on evolution. Basically this separates the brain into 3 parts, the R-complex, the Limbic System, and the Neocortex. As the brain got bigger over time in accordance with evolution and cephalization, the brain also received levels of complexity. Basically, fish have primitive forms of the R-complex, amphibians have a more complex structure than fish, reptiles have the entire R-complex, birds exhibit some of the limbic system, all mammals have the entire limbic system, and higher order mammals possess the neocortex.
> 
> The R-complex (from being named the Reptilian Complex) is the basis of the brain, the brainstem and cerebellum in our brains; which make up the brain in reptiles. In humans and reptiles alike, the R-complex is responsible for certain things like rage, fear, and the flight-or-fight responses. In humans, this is where "primitive" emotions develop, such as territorial defense, fear, and anger all take place.
> 
> Now the Limbic system gives way to mood, emotions and higher order memory. The R-complex had some basic memory functions but the Limbic system gives way to learning, (i.e. Mouse in a maze). These are where emotions like sadness, love, happiness, all reside. All mammals possess this part of the brain; so its safe to say your dogs, cats, mice, rats, hamsters, etc all love you.
> ...

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## vangarret2000

> Well, its not an opinion. Its a fact that snakes can't love or hate.


How is this a fact?

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## Crazy4Herps

> How is this a fact?


I want to know the same thing. A fact requires proof. If there is proof that snakes can't love or hate, I'm interested in seeing it.

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## Scatterheart

> It actually upsets me that anyone with live animals would think they have literally NO EMOTIONS AT ALL (fear, contentment, the state of being annoyed- those *are* emotions, and recognizing that your animals experience at least those basic emotions does not mean you think your snakes love you).


This disturbs me as well... it seems like a rather essential component of understanding and caring for your pet.

I know that I'm new to this hobby and this board but I'd like to share an observation I've made during my learning experience:
Snakes are very sensitive creatures. I suppose I wasn't expecting them to be so as much as they are.
Creatures that will go as far as complete fasting if their enclosure doesn't make them feel safe, or if they are handled too much - this doesn't sound like an emotionless, mindless creature to me. Wouldn't an emotionless, automaton-like creature be more likely to ignore such things and eat anyway?

The issue of love is a whole different can of worms, but in my opinion you can't say that snakes cannot feel essential emotions like fear, anger, contentment... they are too basic to survival. And all emotions are just reactions to stimuli, including those of humans.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (06-04-2009)

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## Crazy4Herps

Agreed.

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

Exactly. When I cry at a funeral, it is a reaction to stimuli. When my husband gets annoyed at work, it is a reaction to stimuli. When I smile and laugh because my baby is cute, it is a reaction to stimuli. I may react to things a snake would not, but that doesn't make my emotions more valid. Just unique to my species, as a snake's are to his  :Smile:

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## StormSerpent

> Exactly. When I cry at a funeral, it is a reaction to stimuli. When my husband gets annoyed at work, it is a reaction to stimuli. When I smile and laugh because my baby is cute, it is a reaction to stimuli. I may react to things a snake would not, but that doesn't make my emotions more valid. Just unique to my species, as a snake's are to his


Finally! Someone thinking correctly  :Very Happy: . I think we tend to exaggerate how "advanced" human emotion can be sometimes.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (06-04-2009)

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## Shin86

idk....my baby loves me...she doesn't ball up when i pull her out....jus climbs into me shirt...hehe

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## b8g8

Love is not something that can be measured.

That said, even if you think that a snake's body (or any body) is just a biological machine and is incapable of love, I don't see what's wrong with people perceiving love from a pet, even if it's "anthropomorphizing." Trying to convince people there is no affection there when they perceive it all the time seems pointlessly cruel to me.

Why try to make less love in the world?

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_AlexisFitzy_ (02-20-2014),_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (06-05-2009)

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## Sanova

> no,snakes don't have feelings they're mindless.


LOL what!?  :sploosh: 

Everyone keeps saying they are instinctive, but can not think; however, they do have the ability to survive. Every living thing has the ability to survive, not every living thing uses it. Hence untimely death. so theres some type of decision making involved.

anyway.. a snake could be thinking the same way of humans. just my 2 cents.

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## Crazy4Herps

> anyway.. a snake could be thinking the same way of humans. just my 2 cents.


I agree. It's possible. Maybe they lack the greed for power us humans have and are content to lay low.

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## _Venom_

> Love is not something that can be measured.
> 
> That said, even if you think that a snake's body (or any body) is just a biological machine and is incapable of love, I don't see what's wrong with people perceiving love from a pet, even if it's "anthropomorphizing." Trying to convince people there is no affection there when they perceive it all the time seems pointlessly cruel to me.
> 
> Why try to make less love in the world?


Cus' it's not true.

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## Lolo76

I know snakes aren't capable of "love" in the human sense, but they have their own version of it - and I'm sticking to that.  :Wink:  Toby (my pastel) is clearly more affectionate toward me than other people, and seems to enjoy my touch. He even likes being rubbed on his head/chin, and gives little snake kisses when he's near my mouth & ears. So while I understand that doesn't qualify as _love_, he is more _loving_ than I realized snakes could be.  :Smile:

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## Qetu

everyone saying its impossible, your wrong. we will never know for sure...theres no way to tell. but me personally, i doubt it. im not going to throw it out though. lol

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-22-2009)

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## Crazy4Herps

> everyone saying its impossible, your wrong. we will never know for sure...theres no way to tell.


Amen to that! Somehow people keep forgetting that we can't read their minds.

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_TheOtherLeadingBrand_ (07-22-2009)

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## CoolioTiffany

I don't think snakes would ever hae anything personal against someone, but I do believe that they have some emotion. My first BP, Candice, seems like she does have feelings. Like, when I take her out, it seems like she's almost excited to be out and be handled (she always loves to be handled). She also likes it when I pet her head, strangely. She seems to do things that snakes don't like to do. She isn't a scardy cat BP, like my other BP. When she gets startled, she'll move her head back a little then puts it forward again. Here's a strange story I heard one time, and it is true:

One day this lady had to take her Burmese python to the vet while her husband was at work. The snake just needed it's regular check ups to make sure that the snake is healthy. Before she went to the vet, she needed to get gas for her car because it was on low. She put the large python in the back seat of her car, and the python curled up in the back seat and stayed there. The lady got out of her car to get gas, and when she finished she got right back into her car. As soon as she got into the car, a man with a knife got in the front passenger seat and told her to drive while holding the knife up like he was going to stab her if she disobeyed. The snake in the back seat struck out and bit down on the man's shoulder. Then, the snake made an attempt to wrap around the man. The snake stayed like this, wrapped around the man, when his owner called the police. The police quickly came over, and with some coaxing from his owner, the snake let go of the man. This story was in a newspaper arcticle.

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## Egapal

> One day this lady had to take her Burmese python to the vet while her husband was at work. The snake just needed it's regular check ups to make sure that the snake is healthy. Before she went to the vet, she needed to get gas for her car because it was on low. She put the large python in the back seat of her car, and the python curled up in the back seat and stayed there. The lady got out of her car to get gas, and when she finished she got right back into her car. As soon as she got into the car, a man with a knife got in the front passenger seat and told her to drive while holding the knife up like he was going to stab her if she disobeyed. The snake in the back seat struck out and bit down on the man's shoulder. Then, the snake made an attempt to wrap around the man. The snake stayed like this, wrapped around the man, when his owner called the police. The police quickly came over, and with some coaxing from his owner, the snake let go of the man. This story was in a newspaper arcticle.


Yeah I am going to need a citation for this one.  Please provide.  

On another note let me give you some insight into this thread.  I have a friend of mine who is constantly making bad decisions based on emotions.  Early in our friendship she would tell me about these bad decisions and I would tell her they are bad and the logic behind them being bad.  Years later we are still friends and we talk often.  She tells me about things in her life and sometimes my girlfriend will tell me something about our mutual friend that I do not know.  Turns out that she has stopped telling me about her bad decisions.  Its almost like she knows which ones are good and which ones are bad and picks and chooses what to tell me so that I won't point out that bad ones.  Moral of the story is this.  If you want to think your snake loves you great.  We can be friends.  But if you tell me that your snake loves you then I am going to tell you all about the limbic system and other parts of the brain.  I don't care what you believe but I will not pass up an opportunity to educate someone and until you start making decisions based on logic, or walk away, I will continue to point out the error in your logic.  

Oh and love can be measured, its called an MRI and the screen changes when you hear your loved ones voice.  We may not be that good at measuring love but we certainly can measure it.

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## Derrick13

Maybe we can, but not accuritley. Science, psychology, religion and all forms of education are important, needed , make us the top of our food chain however, all of it is flaud, statistics are ruled by companies and governments, which are ruled by money, so the truth is pretty nonexistant . Mankind is flawed( I'm not talking about sin, I'm not christian) becuse of the freedom to think indipendently and for the fact that everyone's scope of reality, no matter how similair, is infinitley diffrent from all other humans and animals around us becuse of what we as individuals have faced. We, being at the top of our food chain have been givin the chance to evolve and grow as a race to such an extent that we have obtained the capacity to be good, bad and both at the same time. What I am trying to get at is that we as creative, free thinking and independent beings will see things diffrently from those around us so no matters on emotion, spirituality and education will be agreed on by every individual, and without that their can be no diffinitive source among humanity supporting a absolute truth in any subject of such personnel matters.

I take everything I learn , all data, knowledge "facts"  with a grain of salt. With that said, according to psychology, or atleast the college class I took, it is impossible to dittermine wether any animal has feelings like ours. From interaction however, it seems that animals have individual personnalities and emotions, or this could just be my human mind trying to percieve the world through a humans aspect, not a unbiased one. We decide our realities, and I think if we can be individuals and experince emotion, and if we share traits with animals, no matter how great or small, why cant they have emotions and personnalities?

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## abuja

I don't think that any animal but humans and primates can love. They simply lack the brain power to experience emotions like that. Disagree with me you may, just don't insult me because I think only primates have the level of intelligence to love.

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## Neal

I'm surprised this thread is still active, and going strong. What happening to letting things go with dignity? lol

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## empty.

i think they love you in their own way, its not like doesnt know you, cause they do, and they feel safe and secure with you, and that feeling is like love... i like to think that you create a bond with your pets no matter what is that pet, but a bond its create and you and your pets knows about it

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## ericson1777

I dont think they "love" someone but they know who you are i have let other people hold him and he just sits there no tongue flickers and does not move. But when i hold him his tongue if flickering and he is moving around and exploring.  

Dan

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## Angelique

> If a ball python thrives in a simplistic setup, wouldn't that mean it was okay with it? If it "didn't like it," don't you think there would be repercussions? I.E., stress. Look at breeders like Adam, NERD, etc. Their ball pythons are kept in simplistic setups, and they eat, shed, poop, breed, etc. I think that's a good way of judging if your snake "likes" his home.


I don't know.  People in jail eat, shed, pop and breed if given the chance, yet i don't think they necesarily like it.  Just because an animal can tolerate something doesn't mean they are in *optimal* conditions.  I can´t agree with your use of the word thrive, i would substitute it for survive, just as humans in jails and lions in zoos.

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## Angelique

> Is there another side? We call upon science to solve these problems. Science has proven you wrong. Reptiles cannot experience human emotions in the way you claim they can.


Science and scientific "knowledge and facts" changes every hundred years, or fifty years, five years or every year.  
Earth was flat, then Columbus happened.
Earth was the center of the universe and stationary. 
Remeber that planet called Pluto? Not a planet anymore. 
¿Remember the asteroid that killed off the dinasaurs?  May have been a coincidence.
Microscopic life, find evidence from before the 1600's.
Relativity anyone?

Neuroscience and behavioral psychology are just now getting started, give it some time and perhaps we will see lots of new journal reasearch pointing to new evidence on snake "feelings" and "emotions".  With time lots of things will change.  People used to say emotions and such were not caused by biochemical-neuro-reactions, but it has been proven that "love" and "attraction" are all induced by chemical reactions. 

I rest my case, there is no such thing as Scientific Knowlege, only a temporaraly accepted explanation of phenomenons.

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_Haydenphoto_ (09-16-2009)

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## Angelique

> My Big red tail, Calla, strikes at drunk people... I think she understands more then people give her credit for.


An adult BP i rescued is also ANTI-BOOZE.  You can open a beer in the room, within 10 minutes she is in a striking position pointed towards whoever is holding the beer.  If you have had a beer, don't even consider opening her enclosure because she will strike at you. If you touch her she starts hissing like crazy. Even 8-12 hours after you have drunk, post shower and teeth brushing, she will not let you handle her. Weirdest thing i have ever seen.  

BTW, she is an incredibly tame BP, she will leave her hide to rest on your hand,  will sit on your lap for hours. I guess she just enjoys dry socializing.

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## Denial

I love my snakes and thats all that matters to me!

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_Egapal_ (09-16-2009)

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## mainbutter

> I love my snakes and thats all that matters to me!


+1

i feel the same way,

I take good care of my pets.

They show it, and if they are capable of knowing it then they know it.

then again it's hard to train reptiles in mma to compete against each other...

I'm happy to know that they feel like eating and sleeping and reproducing.

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## Egapal

> Science and scientific "knowledge and facts" changes every hundred years, or fifty years, five years or every year.  
> Earth was flat, then Columbus happened.
> Earth was the center of the universe and stationary. 
> Remeber that planet called Pluto? Not a planet anymore. 
> ¿Remember the asteroid that killed off the dinasaurs?  May have been a coincidence.
> Microscopic life, find evidence from before the 1600's.
> Relativity anyone?
> 
> Neuroscience and behavioral psychology are just now getting started, give it some time and perhaps we will see lots of new journal reasearch pointing to new evidence on snake "feelings" and "emotions".  With time lots of things will change.  People used to say emotions and such were not caused by biochemical-neuro-reactions, but it has been proven that "love" and "attraction" are all induced by chemical reactions. 
> ...


That is ridiculous.  

The earth was not flat, people believed it was flat.

The earth was not the center of the universe, people believed it was.

That planet called Pluto got demoted.  Its still there.  We just call it something different.  Nothing changed about it.  We reclassify things all the time.

That asteroid was a coincidence.  It wasn't sent here to kill dinosaurs.  dinosaurs didn't even go extinct they evolved into birds.  Humans being wrong about that THEORY can hardly be used to discredit anything.  It was never scientific fact in the first place.

Microscopic life existed before the 1600's and we found it when we got the tools to see things that small, again has nothing to do with the argument.

What about Relativity, seriously what are you getting at.

The people who believe in things without any proof believed that emotions were not caused by biochemical-neuro-reactions and eventually we managed convince enough people that was dumb and we ignore the people who are left.  

In every one of your examples, except the relativity one which I don't get, you show people believing something based on limited understanding of the world around them.  In every case a greater understanding of the world around them showed us that there is a better theory that explains what we see.  

Scientific Knowledge is the temporarily accepted explanation of phenomenons.  They are not two different things they are the same.  I think that based on the evidence I have scene snakes don't have the emotion of love as we define it.  So unless you can refute the evidence you aren't changing my mind.  I am not saying that snakes are not amazing creatures capable of complex behaviors that we are far from understanding.  They are truly amazing.  They don't have the parts of the brain necessary to love the way humans do however.  So unless they are hiding a more complex brain someplace I am just not with the "my snake loves me" camp.

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## Haydenphoto

> That is ridiculous.  
> 
> The earth was not flat, people believed it was flat.
> 
> The earth was not the center of the universe, people believed it was.
> 
> That planet called Pluto got demoted.  Its still there.  We just call it something different.  Nothing changed about it.  We reclassify things all the time.
> 
> That asteroid was a coincidence.  It wasn't sent here to kill dinosaurs.  dinosaurs didn't even go extinct they evolved into birds.  Humans being wrong about that THEORY can hardly be used to discredit anything.  It was never scientific fact in the first place.
> ...


OK what about GOD ? You can look at it 50 thousand diff ways so for you to think you know it all look at what he was saying again have an open mind !

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## NorthernRegius

Does it matter?
If so why?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

They are what they are & we love them. Some snakes exhibit actions that may or may not be affection.

My Madu Retic sometimes acts like it's her time of the month even though she does not menstruate. I still love 'em all unconditionally. I like to fuss over & care for things & that includes all animals in my care.

So in the end it doesn't matter a rat's hinny if they love me back or not.  :Snake:

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Foschi Exotic Serpents (10-14-2009)

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## JohnAvilla

Personally, I don't know what snakes feel or think. No one does. To state that snakes don't feel is to assume knowledge of something you can't possibly know. I am pretty sure though that one of my adult females HATES me :Very Happy:

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singingtothewheat (12-07-2009)

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## JohnAvilla

> Humans don't have instincts. Look up the definition of instinct. We have many behaviors and drives that very closely resemble animal instincts, but when looking at the criteria of instincts, nothing humans do, in the entire species on the planet, can be labeled as an instinct.


As a student of psychology I believe that what we call "instincts" are more complex than we understand. We say that humans don't have them because we understand ourselves better than animals. The more research that is done however, the closer animal behavior seems to human behavior. Bonobos for instance have been witnessed caring for injured animals and testing has shown that many animals undergo the same chemical reactions in the brain that humans do when exposed to emotional triggers. Also, there is evidence that tickling/tickle defense is instinctual. The automatic motions of children being tickled are now thought to be a basic, hardwired form of grappling.

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## Tempest

My snakes (excluding my Redtail male) dont mind my handling them... but they express no affection...(my Redtail male has a big mouth and is territorial... always tries to snap at me when I open his cage)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> Does it matter?
> If so why? 
> 
> They are what they are & we love them. Some snakes exhibit actions that may or may not be affection.
> 
> My Madu Retic sometimes acts like it's her time of the month even though she does not menstruate. I still love 'em all unconditionally. I like to fuss over & care for things & that includes all animals in my care.
> 
> So in the end it doesn't matter a rat's hinny if they love me back or not.


I am absolutely loving this reply & i must wholeheartedly agree!

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## SvicksTC

Well i know snakes cannot love or whatever, but how about the fact a pattern begins to develop with feeding and handling and aclamation?  Do they understand that?

Like i feel like my ball knows when i put him in his feed tub he knows what he is getting he knows what i am about to do...

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## Chocolate Muffin's

Mine totally does. I love her more than a dog or cat because with Snakes, trust is such a much bigger issue. Once you have their trust, its such a wonderful feeling and they are so much more friendly and curious and loving IMHO.

BTW - I just got a new BP today, 4530grams!!!!! And beautiful and wonderful!!! I just had to share!

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## achilles4

I think snakes to some degree have thoughts. I have a female ball python that I have had for almost four years and I think she recognizes who I am. there are other snakes I have that I havent had for too long and they dont seem like they feel anything except sensitivity to their head and pit areas.

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## singingtothewheat

I disagree that pythons can't feel emotions.  They obviously feel fear.  That is a primal emotion however.  Can they love.  Nope.  Can they feel a lack of fear and therefore display some comfort with us.  Yes, they can

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## ilovemyballs

i dont get it... i thought this was a place for people who "loved snakes". Maybe i just take it too far, i consider my snake an equal, and love it as i would love my child (granted im only 15, and have no children), but would never drop the fact that i am the boss, and make the rules. Either way, i KNOW my snake loves me, I walk in the room, he notices me, and tries to escape his cage (pushing the locked top of his cage) to greet me. Whenever he does somthing he looks to me as if to say, "look daddy i ate a mouse!" or "Look daddy, I pooped on you! Are you proud of me???". Its like he loves getting my attention... Also he will let me scratch the underside of his neck, and head. WHAT BP WILL LET YOU DO THAT??? Any way, call me crazy but i know my bp loves me...

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## Bhikku

> Mine totally does. I love her more than a dog or cat because with Snakes, trust is such a much bigger issue. Once you have their trust, its such a wonderful feeling and they are so much more friendly and curious and loving IMHO.


I totally agree with this, I'm in the process of gaining my new python's trust and it is such a satisfying feeling to see her uncoil and start to be comfortable being handled by me. Watching them come out of their shell is amazing.

I don't think my snake loves me, and I don't even know if she's capable of feeling affection for me. But she is learning to feel secure in my presence, and that makes me feel good.

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## royal6

my snake loves me, even got a kiss from her......
 :Smile:

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_zackw419_ (01-13-2010)

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## Neal

> my snake loves me, even got a kiss from her......


That's some love right there, doesn't get no better then that right?

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## Chocolate Muffin's

Nice Tag :Good Job:

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## DutchHerp

I'm actually not that surprised that 47% of the people on this forum think that their ball pythons love them.  It just goes to show that they don't know crap about snakes.

Later, Matt

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_zackw419_ (01-13-2010)

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## snakey68

> I'm actually not that surprised that 47% of the people on this forum think that their ball pythons love them.  It just goes to show that they don't know crap about snakes.
> 
> Later, Matt


 :ROFL:  actually nearly lost a mouthful of beer reading that.

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## DutchHerp

> actually nearly lost a mouthful of beer reading that.


Yeah, I've had that with many people's posts on this forum even if they weren't trying to be humorous.

Later, Matt

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## rabernet

> WHAT BP WILL LET YOU DO THAT???


All 50 of mine. Just saying......

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## BPelizabeth

Bottom line is what you think about your snakes.  Only YOU know your snakes and their moods, moves, etc.  There is really no way to know FOR SURE if they have the perpensity for love or not. For anyone to insinuate that someone is stupid or ignorant for believing that their snake loves them is just plain rude and quite frankly ignorant to others feelings.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with believing that a snake can have feelings of gratitude, love, or recognition.

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## BPelizabeth

:Surprised:   Royal....that is *ALOT* of lovin!! :sploosh:

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## iCandiBallPythons

This thread is cracking me up! I hope I don't offend anyone but I think it's very possible that people can read too much into some things sometimes. I think any snake is capable of associating a number of things with us from an instinctual stand point, granted *they are* "intelligent" creatures to an extent. It does however annoy the crap out of me when people refer to themselves as a "mommy" or "daddy" over anything unless they're reffering to their child, but to each his or her own.

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## BPelizabeth

> It does however annoy the crap out of me when people refer to themselves as a "mommy" or "daddy" over anything unless they're reffering to their child, but to each his or her own.


O cmon...you know when you pick yours up you are like ..."come to daddy my little baby"..... :ROFL:

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## singingtothewheat

> that's some love right there, doesn't get no better then that right?



a.t.b.?

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## pliskin

> This thread is cracking me up! I hope I don't offend anyone but I think it's very possible that people can read too much into some things sometimes. I think any snake is capable of associating a number of things with us from an instinctual stand point, granted *they are* "intelligent" creatures to an extent. It does however annoy the crap out of me when people refer to themselves as a "mommy" or "daddy" over anything unless they're reffering to their child, but to each his or her own.


yeah , I've been reading some of the replies and I'm amazed at how many people think their snakes love them. Reptiles such as snakes react solely on instinct.

I find it funny that people even give names to their snakes , its not going to come to you when you call it. Naming the snake , or trying to bestow emotions like love are something done purely for the owner.

I wonder if any of the guys that keep hots think their snakes love them. you wouldn't want to get a "kiss" from one of them.  
or what about the people that own lizards, I wonder if they think their lizards love them.

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## rabernet

> I find it funny that people even give names to their snakes


Guilty! I have fun naming them. Plus I like referring to Oliver rather than het clown male 1.

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Piedlover (11-18-2010)

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## Jay_Bunny

I name all of my animals as well, including my snakes. As far as people referring to themselves as mommy and daddy, I am guilty of that and not ashamed of it. At the moment, I can't have children of the human variety. I consider my animals to be my children and if you could see the way one of my cats is with me, you'd understand. He is my son, no matter his species.

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## lmt65

My large female "meg" wont strike anything with my scent on it.. I have to put rubber gloves on to handle her feed or she wont take it.  She loves to sit with me while i'm watching tv or on the computer, she has never struck at me or my other pets and becomes active when i'm near her pen trying to reach the top for me to lift her out.  She would purr if she could, she is very inquisitive and gentle.. I find her actions to be as affectionate as she can express :-)

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## BPelizabeth

well you can clearly see from my sig. that all of mine are my babies.  Tristen calls them his bruders and sisurs.  lol

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## Diamond_1028

> no,snakes don't have feelings they're mindless.


Everything has feelings. If they didn't have feeling why would a Ball Python "feel" threatend and go into a ball? So yes they do have feelings  :Smile:

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## retic720

I posted WAAAY back that one particular retic of mine (the one in my avatar) is a genuine "freak of nature"; she NEEDS handling or else she's going to push her face raw and her food acquisition is so "mild", my ball python has a more aggressive feeding response than her. 

She's not so perfect though; if my hand smells like food, she's just like the "stereotyped" retic. 

Anyhows, does anybody else observe this "freaky" syndrome (aka, known "mean species" suddenly behaving like lambs)? I read somewhere in this forum that there is this Yellow anaconda owner (was it Neal?) who describes an even more "benign" yellow annie; iirc he could even hand feed her.

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## Ashleedm

I think my snakes care about me  :Smile:

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Reptis (04-21-2010)

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## snakeyes

ok. it's a scientific fact that snakes are not intelligent enough to have emotions. some of them are more aware and intelligent (in a purely instinctual way) than others.
they are instinctual creatures that, when raised in captivity, they learn to recognize their owners as their primary source of food and shelter, hence they grow accustomed to them.
if a snake does something out of the norm (like spending prolonged periods of time being handled by their owners without overstressing themselves, or darting their tongue to the surface of your cheek when you put your face close enough to their head) simple-minded people are ready and willing to believe that they are smarter than science indicates they are and would readily attribute these occurences to them displaying their emotions.
the bottom line is that it all comes down to HOW COMFORTABLE the animal is with the owner. It depends on the snakes temperament, but lost of snakes become extremely comfortable with their owners and will let them do with them pretty much whatever they want.
some of us (i'm not included) would to believe our snakes "love" all that we do for them (feed them, clean up their poop, not strangling them for taggin us lol) but they do not. they actually couldn't care less. however, they do grow more comfortable with us as a result of our care and attention.  
With snakes, basically you reap what you sow. If you are a good keeper, you will receive the satisfaction of seeing the animal become easier to handle and more comfortable in your presence.

everybody is entitled to their own opinions. if you want to mistake your snakes comfortability (i that a word? lol) around you for "love", then go right ahead.

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## astral_dream_god

I think my snake loves me,and i love her,and if plants can "feel",wich are more primitive than snakes then how come snakes can't?

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Reptis (04-21-2010)

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## Jay_Bunny

Plants don't have emotions...period! Snakes are instinctual animals but if you want to believe they love you, then more power to you I guess. I know that my snakes don't love me, but I love them. I think that is all that matters.

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snakeyes (03-16-2010)

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## snakeyes

> Plants don't have emotions...period! Snakes are instinctual animals but if you want to believe they love you, then more power to you I guess. I know that my snakes don't love me, but I love them. I think that is all that matters.


i couldn't have put it better myself.

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## astral_dream_god

PlaNts respond to human emotions,it is proven,and a plant who you talk nice will always grow better than a plant who you talk nasty to will not grow as fastor as good.and if someone or something is capabil of feeling love and hate than they can give back love or hate,an either way i love my snake,and if she doesen't love me,i love her for the both of us:p

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Reptis (04-21-2010)

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## Arsinoe

Just because one lives on instinct doesn't mean they don't feel anything. Every animal lives by instinct, even humans can when they don't pollute themselves with everything else made to kill that in themselves. 

Right now I have this silly boy on my shoulders rubbing me in the face like kitty cat. Something tells me he might like me. I have worked to teach him not to be head shy. I can literally hold his head top and bottom and not have him fuss. Trust is a feeling too. If one can trust they certainly can love.

To act like because you are viewed as a source of food, that is the only reason an animal is attracted to you. You can say then that your cats and dogs are just sucking up to you and stays around to be fed also. I personally believe if you treat any animal on an equal basis you will get something that cares for you.

I think because snakes  are so different that people automatically think that they can't feel. They also say they can't hear cause they don't have ears. I think they do. Just because he doesn't have classic ears, doesn't mean that something else doesn't function the same. After all in the wild they would need all senses to survive. Besides think about this if  you had to live crawling around the dust and dirt that if you had ear openings that just how dirty and plugged up they would get.

Remember this.........When you limit yourself as to think other species don't have feelings, that is when you dehumanize yourself and can legitimize abusing and killing things for no reason.

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## Jay_Bunny

No, just because I don't believe snakes can feel emotion as we do, does not mean I dehumanize myself. I do not stand for animal abuse in any way shape or form. Just because a snake can not feel emotions does not mean they do not deserve respect and proper care. It just means that when I talk baby talk to my snakes and tell them out much I love them, I do not expect them to come slithering out of their tubs to give me a kiss on the nose. 

When my cat comes over to cuddle in my arms like a baby, and is showing actual displays of affection (licking my chin, pawing at my hand for kitty skritches), I consider that emotion. (He thinks he's my human baby. He'd probably drink from a bottle if I let him). BUT, when my SNAKE comes out to be handled and flicks his tongue across my nose or cheek, I know that is not a display of affection, and it is a natural information gathering behavior. They use their tongues to smell. Instead of hearing, they sense vibrations. Snakes do not seek you out for attention. They are not a species that thrives on social situations. They are solitary creatures and prefer to be left alone. Can they learn to tolerate being handled, sure. Can they become more comfortable with you and not stress out as much, sure. But in my opinion, these are not reasons to think they have a preference for you or love you. They "cuddle" with you because you are a source of heat when you have them out at room temperature. They "kiss" your mouth/nose/cheek because that is a place that smells very different from the rest of your body. 

Does this mean I care for my snakes any less? Absolutely not! I just don't expect anything in return when I love them. I make sure they are comfortable with a clean tub, plump rats, and clean water.

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## Arsinoe

What if your snake behaves in a way that indicates a 'want' or in this case a non want.........Example I had Alexander out for about 2 or 3 hours this morning. He started to be a butt head crawling all over the keyboard. I got the feeling he was getting tired and wanted to get a nap. So I took him to his home and he clearly wanted to stay out. But I made him go in and the first thing he did was go get a drink and he's napping now. This tells me he wanted to stay with me, even though he was tired and thirsty. Is this not an emotional want on his part? If he was just driven by self preservation, he shouldn't have balked at going in.

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## Jay_Bunny

A want to be in a place or not be in a place, does not indicate a display of emotion. I have a corn snake that always wants to stay out of his enclosure. I think it might be the act of placing him down into an enclosed space is frightening to him so he tries to stay on my hand. Does this means he has a preference to stay with me. No! This snake does not tolerate handling at all. 

Snakes having a preference for where they are or where they want to go is usually, again, based on instinct. The need to be in a place that feels secure and warm. He was probably roaming all over the keyboard because he was stressed out.

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## Jay_Bunny

Look, you will believe what you believe. If you believe your snake loves you and that makes you happy and you enjoy caring for him, more power to you I guess. I just personally do not believe that my snakes are capable of human-like emotion.

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## blackcrystal22

> PlaNts respond to human emotions,it is proven,and a plant who you talk nice will always grow better than a plant who you talk nasty to will not grow as fastor as good.and if someone or something is capabil of feeling love and hate than they can give back love or hate,an either way i love my snake,and if she doesen't love me,i love her for the both of us:p


No, plants do not respond to human emotions. 

Give me the study and scientific evidence. Also, nothing in science is 'proven' everything is theorized. 
We actually talked about this with my college's horticulturist because someone brought that up in class. He said it was hooey and he'd pay money to see that actually happen, because some other element had to have had an effect.

No, they do not have emotions because they do not have the same kind of brain tissues that allow for comprehension of emotional value. All of their 'emotions' are purely instinctual and of fear, hunger, stress, or content. 

Arsinoe, you are wrong. I do not dehumanize myself, I work in science. There are species capable of emotion, dogs and cats being included. The difference is, they are mammals, and have much more complex brain systems.
Octopi are the most intelligent of invertebrates. Many of them in zoos or aquariums need a toy for enrichment, but they have a brain and eyes that are more complex than most reptiles. They can see in a color spectrum as wide as ours, because of their cone-prong ratio. But can they feel emotions? We can't really tell with them, but they would have characteristics that could lead to that possibility.

Do reptiles show any characteristics of emotion? No. 
There are some things that have little evidence in science and are very loose theories. This is something that is highly backed by evidence in comparison. 

Also, snakes don't want to take a nap, they sleep 20 hours a day and many snakes are more tolerant of handling than others, and many will use your body heat as if it were a heat mat which makes them appear 'calm' in nature. There is nothing about the snake wanting to be with you. It may associate your scent with a non-dangerous animal, so that it does not fear you, but it has no reason to like you because it cannot comprehend the 'nice' things you do for it.

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## Arsinoe

> Snakes having a preference for where they are or where they want to go is usually, again, based on instinct. The need to be in a place that feels secure and warm. He was probably roaming all over the keyboard because he was stressed out.


He wasn't stressed he was reacting just like my kitty cats do when I am paying too much attention to the internet..._Jump on Mommy's key board and she will pay attention to ME!_

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## Jay_Bunny

I really doubt your snake was thinking if it got on your keyboard that you'd pay attention to it. Snakes just do not comprehend that kind of behavior, and I certainly doubt they see you as "Mommy". I doubt a snake could even recognize one of its own species as "mommy".

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## BOWSER11788

wow 43 pages, who cares, all my snakes climb on me and i actually have a bp that likes his hed, rubbed, but if it loves me or tolarates me is irrelavent. does any reptile love its owner. i've read these long thought out posts, glad they got the time to explain when the next poster says idk, so yea

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## Arsinoe

> I have experienced the complete opposite before....does that mean that my snake hates me?


If a snake can hate...Can it not love?

I've never had a pet not love me. Some are stand offish--solitary. But I've never been attacked by a pet. I have even adopted birds that their owners say they attack, only to find out they didn't like them, or their prior situation, for good reason, but given a new home with me they acted exactly the opposite.

The one time Alexander attacked when I first put him in his new home was a fear response, when I moved his substrate around in front of him. After that he's never shown any aggression to anyone...Me or the fur family flying around him.

Alexander has this odd little thing he does every so often when I hold him. He does this kind of undulating like he's caressing me. He's not wrapped around either.So it's not a pressing like he's constricting. And he's not trying to get away either. I think it's a sign of affection.

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## rabernet

> If a snake can hate...Can it not love?
> 
> I've never had a pet not love me. Some are stand offish--solitary. But I've never been attacked by a pet. I have even adopted birds that their owners say they attack, only to find out they didn't like them, or their prior situation, for good reason, but given a new home with me they acted exactly the opposite.
> 
> The one time Alexander attacked when I first put him in his new home was a fear response, when I moved his substrate around in front of him. After that he's never shown any aggression to anyone...Me or the fur family flying around him.
> 
> *Alexander has this odd little thing he does every so often when I hold him. He does this kind of undulating like he's caressing me.* He's not wrapped around either.So it's not a pressing like he's constricting. And he's not trying to get away either. I think it's a sign of affection.


'

Completely normal behavior with a relaxed snake. All of mine do the same thing - still don't think that they're trying to be affectionate - they're just behaving like snakes.  :Confused:

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## Arsinoe

> '
> 
> Completely normal behavior with a relaxed snake. All of mine do the same thing - still don't think that they're trying to be affectionate - they're just behaving like snakes.



Ah but are you sure? Cats rub on you and some say it's affection and others say its scent marking territory. It depends on how you look at it. Can a snake be so different?

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## rabernet

> Ah but are you sure? Cats rub on you and some say it's affection and others say its scent marking territory. It depends on how you look at it. Can a snake be so different?


Do I think all 50 of mine behave exactly the same way as your single snake does because they're being affectionate with me? No - I do not. I think they are behaving exactly like a relaxed snake. 

But then, I don't anthropomorphize my snakes. I love them just because - I don't require or need them to love me back to enjoy my relationship and role as keeper with them.  :Smile:

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_Elise.m_ (04-07-2010)

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## dr del

Hi,

Impossible to be sure one way or another.

But cats have both a social structure that uses scent to identify members and territories marked in the same way. And the bit they rub against us when given their choice just happens to be where those scent glands are located.

I have never heard of snakes having either traits. Don't get me wrong I have had snakes try and coat me in the smellier products of their bodies - but I was never left with the idea they were feeling affectionate at the time.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I suspect snakes (at least some species like king cobras ) have what could be called a "home range" but whether they conciously patrol and scent mark to protect it is another matter.

When I handle my snakes they nearly all bump noses and flick their tongue on the tip of my nose - but I also know the nose is the hottest and closest part of my face from the snakes point of view and has a stream of warm scented air coming out of it to boot.

It's also possible that my glasses remind them of the sides of their tubs.  :ROFL: 

But I am happy that I love my snakes and that's enough for me - if I needed returned affection I'd probably have a dog.

Or one of those human being efforts in a pinch.


dr del

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## redstormlax12

The truth is we love our snakes, but they dont love us. My herps, and the rest of my pets, would be some of the first things i grab in an emergency, but i know if there was a fire and their cages were open, they would come and wake me up to make sure i get out, they would get out because they want to survive. Our snakes act on instinct, and instinct is selfish. Our instincts, as with almost all living creatures, tells us to save ourselves. 

The fact is our snakes dont love us, no matter how much we want them too. Some keepers give them names, talk to them, and treat them as other humans. But they will never return the favor, not because they dont want to, but because they cant. Personally i dont keep snakes to talk to them, give them names or treat them like humans, but to observe them and truly respect them. They are magnificent creatures, and to just watch them behave in a natural way gives me my satisfaction.

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_snakey68_ (06-26-2010)

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## king216

MY SNAKES MIGHT NOT LITERALLY LOVE ME, BUT THEY FEEL SAFE  & SECURE WITH ME, I THINK THEY'RE HAPPY WITH THEIR OWNER  :Snake:

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_Adam Chandler_ (07-06-2010)

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## king216

> what if your snake behaves in a way that indicates a 'want' or in this case a non want.........example i had alexander out for about 2 or 3 hours this morning. He started to be a butt head crawling all over the keyboard. I got the feeling he was getting tired and wanted to get a nap. So i took him to his home and he clearly wanted to stay out. But i made him go in and the first thing he did was go get a drink and he's napping now. This tells me he wanted to stay with me, even though he was tired and thirsty. Is this not an emotional want on his part? If he was just driven by self preservation, he shouldn't have balked at going in.


lol

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## PurplePython

I don't think that snakes can "love" or "hate" you. But I do feel like they can get used to you and get more used to you handling them and being around them, and eventually be very comfortable being held by you. Technically that is somewhat learning to trust.. so is trust an emotion? hmmmm....

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## CallmeUmaster

I dont see why people are saying snakes are stupid and emotionless, bassicly degrading an animal they have many of and like very much. If they are so stupid then why do people who think theyre stupid keep many many of them? Every animal is diffrent. There mind might not be like ours but id imagine there is some sort of equivalent to love. If somone can make a connection with the snake i think its possible to bond with it to some extent. Every animal is diffrent so throwing them all in one group and saying something isnt possible doesnt seem right to me. The impossible happens ALL THE TIME. Saying they cant feel emotions just seems like your trying to make yourself feel like a higher being than them. But thats just me. Here is an odd story though, a couple years back at my old house there was this girl in the area who owned a pretty big albino burm. It was her baby, she did everything with it. The odd part was that is was a "mood" snake. It reacted towards other people by how she felt towards them. Her friends would come up and it would be calm and friendly, a person she didnt like it would begin to hiss and get into striking position. Once the person she didnt like left he immidiantly became placid and friendly. I believe she made that connection with her snake.
Snakes might not have the same emotions as us but i think they can care and feel atleast to some extint in there own way. I wouldnt expect a snake to show me he cares the same way a dog would. It might not even be a love just a neutral respect, but i think they can feel in there own way.

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## AkHerps

Maybe the word stupid isn't being used right.  Snakes have a primitive brain, therefore, they are less intelligent and less advanced in the thinking areas compared to other animals.

Instinct tells them to remember who is safe and who is not, who possibly poses and threat, and who does not, what situation benefits them, and which does not.

The corn snake here recognizes her owner and acts calm and lazy with him, but the second I hold her, she gets nervous and finicky and tries to get back to her owner, because I haven't held her more than once or twice, so she still possibly sees me as a threat.

We know they don't have complex emotional systems by studying their brain and which parts it has, and which parts it doesn't have developed.

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## Adam Chandler

If you love your snake(s) you shouldn't worry about if they love you, just if they are happy. 

And if they are eating, shedding, and pooping I consider that happy.

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## KCAlbright

With all the research we have recorded about these animals, we still cannot say EXACTLY how they feel, for we have never lived as a snake. Therefor, we wouldn't know how they feel.

I believe that somewhere deep in their minds, my snakes know who I am (That I feed them and keep them clean, etc.), and have some sort of affection for me. I won't come out and say that they definitely love me and appreciate what I've done for them, but I think they have some idea of who I am.

Either way, I still love them!

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## king216

> so, you are saying that love, whatever that term may mean or whatever you think it means, is incapable of emerging from any lower level functioning area of the brain.  Or if you prefer freudian terms, love can only spring from the ego.  I disagree.
> 
> I think the main problem with this discussion, other than the sophomoric glee people are extracting from their feelings of supposed superiority to others, is that the word love is by far the most overly used word in the english language.  Do i think a snake is capable of love like romantic love?  Of course not.  Do i think a snake is capable of love like the love that the christ or the buddha had for the world?  Absolutely not.  Do i even think that a snake can feel empathy?  Again, no.  But can a snake feel safe, secure, emboldened, and not threatened by another being living in close proximity to it?  Yes, i do.  And those feelings are some of the feelings that i ascribe to the word love.
> 
> The idea of love encompasses many things.  To extract love of all but its logical and emotional elements is to diminish it.


i agree, very well said

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## JEWSKIN

kudos kudos and a soft golf clap :Snake:  :Dancin' Banana:

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## travishalogod

do snakes love like we love? no of course not, but with snake and all animals, they absolutely pick up energy, positive negative and powerful energy. If i attempt to handle mine and i am in a pissed off mood it will pull through to him and he will be nervous and what not. he picks up on my energy and is relaxing and calm and "loving" when i am. all being pick up energy, just some more than others realize it. animals and children do. My snake actually gave me attitude one day after i laughed at him for biting himself while going after a mouse. he completely turned toward me and postured, as if to say, "f you man!"
open your mind and start to observe ppl and things and you might see or even feel the difference

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## snakey68

> do snakes love like we love? no of course not, but with snake and all animals, they absolutely pick up energy, positive negative and powerful energy. If i attempt to handle mine and i am in a pissed off mood it will pull through to him and he will be nervous and what not. he picks up on my energy and is relaxing and calm and "loving" when i am. all being pick up energy, just some more than others realize it. animals and children do. My snake actually gave me attitude one day after i laughed at him for biting himself while going after a mouse. he completely turned toward me and postured, as if to say, "f you man!"
> open your mind and start to observe ppl and things and you might see or even feel the difference


I agree with the energy part, as a trained Kinesiologist I understand and use energy in many areas however .......your snake giving you attitude because you laughed at it  :Razz:  cracked me up  :Very Happy:  sounds like you have a creative mind and decided to use it to suit the situation which is pretty funny  :Good Job:

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## redstormlax12

> My snake actually gave me attitude one day after i laughed at him for biting himself while going after a mouse. He completely turned toward me and postured, as if to say, "f you man!"


Im sorry but I completely disagree with this being possible. Your snake is not going to act aggressive or defensive towards you because you laughed. They don't know what a laugh is. 

I think what your mistaking for attitude is actually feeding behavior. While feeding and for a time after feeding snakes will be in feeding mode and will strike at almost all movement.

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## appygirl84

I think there needs to be a third option.  C. Some of my snakes like me some do not. 
I have a girl I can cuddle with and likes to sit with me.  I have two girls that hiss at me, one will then relax and cuddle the other I'm waiting for it to strike, and a boy that tries to run away.  =)

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## Emaris

"Emotions" of a snake....
1. I'm hungry
2. Can I eat it?
3. Is it going to eat me?
4. I'm scared!
5. I fell comfortable here.

Many snake owners mistake their snake being comfortable with them with love.

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## Tanziny

This is a very interesting topic and one I have seen on other forums.  The thing that I dont understand is why does it matter if some people think their snakes love them.  I dont have a large collection so I may not have a lot of comparison, but I do know that I have a snake that prefers me to my husband and a snake that prefers my husband to me.  Do I think they love me the way I love my son or my husband or my dogs, well no.  Do I think that we dont know enough about how the brain works to decide for sure. Yes.  Do I think it matters in the long run if I think my snakes love me?  No not really.  I love them and that is what counts.  Do I think that someone who  believes their snake is no more than an organic machine will not take good physical care of their snake? absolutely not.  

Maybe if more "nonreptile" people thought reptiles could "love" snakes and lizards, etc, would have a better reputation.  Who Knows  :Smile:

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## Bellabob

Snakes don't feel emotion. They don't have complex brains like humans or other mammals do. So they really just don't care. I like to think my snakes love me, but in reality they could care less lol.

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## Maverick67

But do snake show preference over their handler? If my wife is holding Scarlett she will crawl off of her and to me if I am nearby.

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## RideRed12

Here are my thoughts, Ive only had a snake for 2 weeks but bare with me. I believe if it can show a preference of what it likes and doesnt like, and also get pissed off and annoyed which are emotions, then I can guarentee that it can love. Anger, hate, and fright are all emotions, if you can feel one then I think its safe to say you should be able to feel them all. Just my 2 cents.

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## mattyboymr

This all may be true. But allI know is when my snake sees me. It comes out of hiding and climbs right up on my hand. So I dont know weather you want to to call it love or reconizing me. But it makes me feel loved! lol

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## redstormlax12

> Here are my thoughts, Ive only had a snake for 2 weeks but bare with me. I believe if it can show a preference of what it likes and doesnt like, and also get pissed off and annoyed which are emotions, then I can guarentee that it can love. Anger, hate, and fright are all emotions, if you can feel one then I think its safe to say you should be able to feel them all. Just my 2 cents.


Our snakes are not getting pissed off, but are defending themselves which is instinct. When feeling threatened they show behavior which many people are portraying as emotions. This is anthropromorphising and this has caused dangerous situations with wildlife in the past. I am not claiming that it will with our herps, but it could. 

The bottom line is they are not feeling emotions. They are acting on instinct. 

As for recognizing certain people. This is easily explained. Each of us have our very own unique chemical scent, that only our herps will pick up on. If you are regularly in contact or near your snake, they may eventually realize you are not a threat. Though if another person, which will have their own chemical scent and would be foreign to the snake, the snake may act in a defensive behavior, which some have marked as an emotion.

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_snakey68_ (08-26-2010)

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## musclebabe

in my humble opinion, i believe any of Gods creatures have the ability to bond with humans. I believe that it all depends on how the creature is handled from birth, and throughout their upbringing.

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## presleyx25x

> Snakes don't understand emotion other than "I'm gonna eat you!!!"


HAHAHAHAHA :Wag of the finger:  :Taz:  :ROFL:

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## Jay_Bunny

> But do snake show preference over their handler? If my wife is holding Scarlett she will crawl off of her and to me if I am nearby.


I would think this might have to do with the snake attempting to find a warmer place to be. Take my husband and I. Our house sits at around 75, which is a bit chilly to a ball python. If we were to take out a ball python and sit next to each other. I would not be surprised in the slightest if my snake preferred my husband to me. I run at a lower body temperature. My hands and feet tend to be cold if I'm sitting for long periods of time without socks on. My husband on the other hand, is a furnace. He gives off tons of heat. A snake will naturally try and find the warmest person.

Also on the subject of your snake turning to you because you laughed at it. They do not understand what a laugh is. They might sense the vibrations and turn to you because they are in hunting mode. I've had snakes protect their "kill" from me. If they had just constricted food and I move near their cage, they will let go and get into striking position. Its not emotion. It is instinct.

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## deminon

i think that snakes run almost exclusivly on instinct, and as such do not show anything we can precieve as love. i think it is all to do with humans easily anthropomorphising things. saying the snake feels sad or angry is a form of Anthropomorphism. I dont doubt for a second the snakes are able to recognize certain people with whom they have had past encounters, but i highly doubt the can show, or feel some kind of "love". in nature there are few forms of love which i know people will beg to differ about but when it comes down to it only a very few animals can show "love" and snakes are not one of them.

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## Miko

I think what matters most is how much you love your snake. They don't need to love you back.

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_BPelizabeth_ (09-13-2010)

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## myanney

I think snakes (along with other reptiles) are opportunistic. They "lick" you because you smell, not because they're kissing you. They sit on you or crawl about on you because you're warm. They accept you because for the most part, they get used to being handled and realize you aren't going to hurt them, therefore you are not a predator they need to worry about. Maybe they're smart enough to understand you bring them food...who knows? I don't think any of us are mindreaders here  :Razz:

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## JeffD

I believe that snakes are smarter than some give them credit. They use vibrations, heat, scent, vision and pick up our attitude to form a decision of if we are a threat or not. They constantly evaluate their surroundings. Over time they remember those set of senses and associate them with individuals. 
I believe they can feel calm, frightened, angry, hungry..etc.

sent from my EVO , with Tapatalk

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## llovelace

> I believe that snakes are smarter than some give them credit. They use vibrations, heat, scent, vision and pick up our attitude to form a decision of if we are a threat or not. They constantly evaluate their surroundings. Over time they remember those set of senses and associate them with individuals. 
> I believe they can feel calm, frightened, angry, hungry..etc.
> sent from my EVO , with Tapatalk


Reminds me of my ex.....and he sure was a  :Snake:

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## Void

> As for recognizing certain people. This is easily explained. Each of us have our very own unique chemical scent, that only our herps will pick up on. If you are regularly in contact or near your snake, they may eventually realize you are not a threat. Though if another person, which will have their own chemical scent and would be foreign to the snake, the snake may act in a defensive behavior, which some have marked as an emotion.



That's like the viper boa I have...when anyone other than my gf or myself tries to hold him he does everything he can to get away and then poops on the person. Never does that with us.

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## zina10

> Reminds me of my ex.....and he sure was a



 :ROFL:

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Everyone is forgetting about Retic's though... Anyone who has owned one knows they show a recognizable intelligence over most other snakes. They also hold grudges, never forget bad experiences and show a strong preference towards certain people. I know I've said this before but it's very cool to observe. 

Some of my snakes tolerate me, others relax with me and yet others seem to show a distinct "want" to come out and just sit with me. 

Love? I doubt it but the brains these snakes have is not as simple as some may think. 
By the way, they can't hear, therefore  they can hear you laugh. You probably blew air on the snake while laughing or caused the floor to vibrate or something. Yes this would put it in defense mode.

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Utta (11-05-2010),_zina10_ (10-09-2010)

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## Igby

By the way, they can't hear, therefore  they can hear you laugh. You probably blew air on the snake while laughing or caused the floor to vibrate or something. Yes this would put it in defense mode.[/QUOTE]


they lack external ears, but are, in fact, able to hear. they are much more attuned to vibrations (like people walking), but they can still hear sound traveling in the air. Not as well as we can, but still, they hear. it is not something that they rely on, though.

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## pixie6710

ok this is ticking me off aloota ppl think snake's are emotionless. if that's the case then y do they get scared? why do the get mad or deffencive if they dont feel any thing? if snakes cant feel then how can they even react the way the do when they FEEL threatened? every living thing can feel emotion's includeing snake's. my snake's all show they can feel emotion's wither they be their own or thier owner's. they just can show it as easily as other animal or u ppl. my snake reno may be laid back but when ever i am upset i go to the snake room and hold him. i will be totaly silent and he will try to comfert me by wrapping around my neck and rubbing the side of my face. and when i am away for too long he get's depressed and inactive which is unlike him. when ever i am pissed off he will wrap around my neck and hang off my shoulder and strike at everyone with all his force that i dont want near me. he even get's jealous when i hold other snake's. he will get more aggressive and try to get outta of his tube untill i put the other snake away then he will mello out as if nothing happened. he even get's excited when i come into the room, he will be moving very quickly trying to get out and as soon as i open the tube he will wrap around my arm and rub his head in the palm of my hand. snake's have emotion. it's just thire chose weither or not they show it. saying snake's have no emotion's is like saying human's cant feel anything. think about it.

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## 11884

i dont really know

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## SpartaDog

I've had this debate many times before. I know a snake's brain isn't advanced enough to show affection (though we can't really tell if they feel it now, can we?). I do, however, think it is advanced enough to recognize me. I know this because my python is always more nervous and jumpy during feeding when someone else does it, but with me it's just routine for him.

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## neur0tix

People are free to think whatever they want. I know my snake loves me, and I don't care what science or if anyones factoids state otherwise!

How can snakes have no minds or emotions if they get used to handling? Something has to evolve or change in that little head of theirs to do this.

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## neur0tix

Same as what the guy above me said... miine is shy with people besides me... balls up and tenses her muscles... but with me, i put my hand in the tank and she'll come out to me.

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## Nacho DeGarvo

> Vote wether or not you believe your snake knows and show affection in odd noticable ways.


Idk, but I do love it when he nuzzles me under my ear.....so cute. :Smile:

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## Utta

if you think a snake doesn't feel emotion, or bonds etc, get an indigo or a retic. it'll teach you other wise  :Wink:

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## neur0tix

If they have no minds then what allows them to gradually get used to handling? I don't care what anyone says, you are free to love any reptile you wish! Just because you don't get a sense of a connection with yours, doesn't mean others don't.

kalmah escaped 2 times before, now i can put her on the bed and she'll stay

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## deminon

i don't think the argument was about them not having minds, it is if they feel emotions which imo they do not. im not saying they dont have personalities because and individual is just that, an individual which will react to stimuli in its own way but thats all it really is, its a reaction not an emotion.

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## dryates

So I only read the first and last two pages but to add to what I've read, I don't see how it is a fact that they are mindless, because the mind is not and actual organ or thin you can see but a state of mind, you will not find it in any anatomy book, so what's to say they actually don't have a mind, it might be true that they don't love but they don't talk, so the best you could say, is that the either can or can not be fond of and object, area or maybe even a person, being as they are instinctual, as all animals are in some form or fashion, or atleast can be. I would also like to add that it is possible that animals can be sensitized to things such as handling, and since you can not see a snake smile or frown, it's basically defense mode and bite, jumpy, or relaxed and not bite. Do you think your snake know if they are eating prey that is already killed if u feed ft, maybe, maybe not, I believe that the ones of us who consider our snakes as pets, most of them would like to think we have a connection with our pets, those that collect may be more apt to say they don't. The fact is unless you can speak snake or they learn English there is no factual way to tell if they do feel affection for things or people, only studies. Lastly I am no way an expert on the matter this is just how I feel about the matter, and what I have concluded. Like is an emotion, why do some snakes like mice better then rats, and vice versa?

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## purplemuffin

I think this is tricky.. They might not be as advanced as us, but you know.. Some scientists will tell you we humans don't feel emotions either, it is all just hormones oozing things out telling our brain signals that we percieve as emotions.. The feeling of 'love' can be seen in a scientific way as the brain reacts chemically! That's all it is really, a bunch of chemicals, hormones, and instincts. Why do we blush when we are embarrassed? It is the flight or fight instinct, preparing our body to react to the whatever caused the feeling. It's instinct! 

If another creature that looked different than us, had different methods of showing emotions, maybe was more advanced than us were to view our brainpatterns..they might dub us as emotionless as well, really. Or at least only full of instinct. 

But its all about what's inside I think. It may be a bunch of chemicals to a scientist, but to me, I know I love my boyfriend with all my heart! Instinct to mate? Sure thing.. But doesn't mean it's less enjoyable to us right?  :Wink: 


yeah, they have less complex minds, less complex reactions to things.. But we don't really know what it's like to be inside a snakes mind. Maybe the same scents, appearances, and movements of an owner is similar to the similar smells and body language of two friends..making us comfortable. It all boils down to instinct, we just have the words to describe it, that's the biggest difference.  :Snake: 


Now not saying my snake is going to sit and watch chick flicks with me and get all emotional, but I think that the fact that they can show fear, remember fear, and go as far as to hold grudges.. Hey, I think there is something to that. Why would an animal only seem to have negative emotions? Lol!

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## dembonez

> I think this is tricky.. They might not be as advanced as us, but you know.. Some scientists will tell you we humans don't feel emotions either, it is all just hormones oozing things out telling our brain signals that we percieve as emotions.. The feeling of 'love' can be seen in a scientific way as the brain reacts chemically! That's all it is really, a bunch of chemicals, hormones, and instincts. Why do we blush when we are embarrassed? It is the flight or fight instinct, preparing our body to react to the whatever caused the feeling. It's instinct! 
> 
> If another creature that looked different than us, had different methods of showing emotions, maybe was more advanced than us were to view our brainpatterns..they might dub us as emotionless as well, really. Or at least only full of instinct. 
> 
> But its all about what's inside I think. It may be a bunch of chemicals to a scientist, but to me, I know I love my boyfriend with all my heart! Instinct to mate? Sure thing.. But doesn't mean it's less enjoyable to us right? 
> 
> 
> yeah, they have less complex minds, less complex reactions to things.. But we don't really know what it's like to be inside a snakes mind. Maybe the same scents, appearances, and movements of an owner is similar to the similar smells and body language of two friends..making us comfortable. It all boils down to instinct, we just have the words to describe it, that's the biggest difference. 
> 
> ...


i don't have much to say to this other then BOOM HEADSHOT! you hit the nail on the head i agree 110% with you us humans are dumb and there is no way we understand all of the world and its creatures so we can't just assume we are the strongest fastest best because we don't fully understand everything out there!

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## omnibus2

First and foremost with a minor in psychology let me tell you all animals that have brains, including humans, get their "emotions" from physical parts of the brain. Some people tend to think that humans are the only ones with "feelings" but this is absurd. Humans have more complexly developed brains than snakes do, but to see all these people handling their snakes, that means there is something going on.

Go to the wild and pick up a corn snake and see if it bites you. 
Taking decent care of a corn snake (or any snake for that matter) and handling it regularly allows it to become accustomed to and feel safe with you. And as for "love", that's such an ambiguous term anyways....bottom line, snakes are awesome.

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## 'SiQ'

It's hard to say because if I was to put my snake on the table it would come towards me before it would someone els... I dont know if that would be affection or some time of comfort

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## zmd0827

I'm just going to put my input.  Believe what you want.

My female Granite (she's got an RI right now  :Sad:  ) has been mine since she was a an adolescent.  She's going on 5 now...

I've always instilled the name "Basil" into her mind, and she seems to take up on it.  You say "Basil" and she will react to it... Whether it's perking her head up, or moving in a different direction that she was before.  She always reacts to it.

When we take her out, and we've played with different scenarios, she'll look for me.  My friends who handle her daily with me don't get that favoritism.  You place her out in the middle of the floor, eliminate all shadows, she'll have four people to choose from and it's me.  Always me.  And she'll ball up at my feet or wrap herself around my ankles.

For a snake that doesn't whimper or bark like a dog, doesn't have any means by which to show emotion except for anger/frustration... Do you think that constitutes as "love"?

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## Ergo Proxy

this thread is very interesting..i will say though i wish my snake could love me..it doesnt matter cus i love them enough for all of us ^-^; so much sometimes i tear up (im such a girly girl!!) the provide me with a feeling of comfort and relax me into knowing im not the only living thing alone in this house..(am alone alot) 

so no..they dont love me! but im glad they are here! 

then again..who really knows..its not like they can tell us or talk and say they do or do not..

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## DarrinLowe

Trust is a function of love, therefore the animal must love you to have the capacity to trust you.

It is the human connection to intimacy that makes love out to be all that much more. 

If it did not love us, it would not trust us, and it would not get comfortable with us ever. 
Even if you could argue that, like a cat it merely associates us with being comfortable and fed, the fact that it makes that association suggests that it loves itself, beyond the mere response to feed. 

Any animal that feels fear, is capable of feeling love, as fear is in a lesser sense, the cousin to love. Where fear is only felt in the absence of love, or in its own complex of losing its own life, which in turn resuggests the animal is conscious of itself. 

Evolution is only found in the love of lifes absolution, and in that absolution, life loves itself, as that is how it becomes recreated, allowing any conscious living entity to develop love, and in that entities ability to trust, a conscious beyond subconscious, super ceeding primal instincts to merely care for oneself, has developed. 

Do my animals love me...? yes.
Do my animals love me to the extent an intelligent being can? No.

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## Jay_Bunny

> It's hard to say because if I was to put my snake on the table it would come towards me before it would someone els... I dont know if that would be affection or some time of comfort


The whole "my snake recognizes me so it must love me" argument is not a very strong one. I could argue that a snake recognizes your scent as something that is non-threatening. Much like if it were in the wild. It it smells or detects no threats in an area, it will seek out the most comfortable spot. In captivity it does the same thing. Your scent is something they associate with no threats. While they may not associate you as an individual person that they become attached to, they do understand that with your smell comes no threat of predation. You are also warm, which in a home that is sitting at room temperature (72), they are going to seek out something that is radiating heat to be close to. That is often why some snakes will prefer to stay on you rather than roam the room. You are warm and they sense no threats. This does not mean they love you. It just means you are a comfy, warm, rock which no predators around.

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Dragyn (02-18-2011)

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## sgath92

It would be interesting to have a thread debating the opposite: Can a snake *hate* someone?

Sometimes a snake just can't seem to stand a specific person. Why does that happen? How is that possible if they're emotionless robots?

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## zmd0827

Yes, a snake can hate someone.  A few other individuals on this site work with me on the Reptile Rescue team.  A few weeks ago we picked up a redtail boa BCI.

It's been a while since he has moved locations.  He still hates everyone.  He hisses, throws a fit, and if you walk within visual range of him he strikes the glass or the mesh top.  He got exceptionally upset with me for taking a picture of him.

Go figure.

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## sgath92

Everyone could make sense if a snake has been abused by humans and has learned to expect them to inflict pain.

But what if a snake reacted that way only towards some specific individual who had never done anything to "get off on the wrong foot"? If a snake hates one person for no apparent reason, and tolerates being around everyone else; surely something is responsible for the personality clash.

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## nor_cal1980

some of my snakes difinetly recognize me and can differentiate me from other people.  one of my corn snakes who is very chill and tame when im holding him absolutely freaks out when i hand him to anyone else. bites poops pee's etc..then calms right down when i take him back....i dont think he loves me or feels emotion....i just think he has trust in me ( as much trust as an animal with a brain the size of a grain of rice can have) and feels safe when im holding him.

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## nor_cal1980

I cant believe 47 % of people really think there snakes love them....every action made by a snake is pure instinct. The only things they feel are the need to eat, reproduce, and feel secure.

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_smd58_ (02-18-2011)

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## smd58

> i cant believe 47 % of people really think there snakes love them....every action made by a snake is pure instinct. The only things they feel are the need to eat, reproduce, and feel secure.


x2

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## Jay_Bunny

> Everyone could make sense if a snake has been abused by humans and has learned to expect them to inflict pain.
> 
> But what if a snake reacted that way only towards some specific individual who had never done anything to "get off on the wrong foot"? If a snake hates one person for no apparent reason, and tolerates being around everyone else; surely something is responsible for the personality clash.


I have never seen a snake react differently toward a person. It could be a matter of if you are trying to hand an already stressed out snake (handling=stress) and hand them off to someone who is perhaps not as comfortable with snakes or smells of a predator (dog, cat, etc) then the snake might react defensively, but a snake isn't just going to start hissing and biting because "Hey, I don't like the way that dude looked at me. Take that, Hand!" 

Snakes cannot hate. They can feel uncomfortable around someone who is less experienced in handling them. A nervous person is going to be a bit more rough and jerky, which causes the snake to stress out. If you were in a tree and suddenly the tree hands you off to a tree that kept shaking you or moving branches really close to your face, you'd be scared too. 

This debate on whether or not snakes can love or hate is getting really old. Its like debating whether my dog can do algebra. Emotions are not intelligence, I understand that, but it is comparable. Reptiles lack the mental capacity to form complex emotions. Can they trust that this warm rock (you) won't move out from under him..maybe. Can they love you...no.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> I have never seen a snake react differently toward a person. It could be a matter of if you are trying to hand an already stressed out snake (handling=stress) and hand them off to someone who is perhaps not as comfortable with snakes or smells of a predator (dog, cat, etc) then the snake might react defensively, but a snake isn't just going to start hissing and biting because "Hey, I don't like the way that dude looked at me. Take that, Hand!" 
> 
> Snakes cannot hate. They can feel uncomfortable around someone who is less experienced in handling them. A nervous person is going to be a bit more rough and jerky, which causes the snake to stress out. If you were in a tree and suddenly the tree hands you off to a tree that kept shaking you or moving branches really close to your face, you'd be scared too. 
> 
> This debate on whether or not snakes can love or hate is getting really old. Its like debating whether my dog can do algebra. Emotions are not intelligence, I understand that, but it is comparable. Reptiles lack the mental capacity to form complex emotions. Can they trust that this warm rock (you) won't move out from under him..maybe. Can they love you...no.


On the contrary.. Retics have been known to show a preference to one person and aggression or fleeing reactions toward another. 

Different species have different intelligence levels. Some operate on instinct alone, while others demonstrate a level of recognition and memory that others don't.

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## sgath92

Agreed. Reptiles do have the right brain structures to have some form of emotions. I'm not saying they have the same range of emotions and cognitive ability that you'd find in a more advanced brain like that of an African Gray but the prerequisites are there for some basic emotion-capabilities.

There have been experiments where radioactive dyes have been bonded to GnRH's in snakes which allow you to see brain functions, structures and fibers under imagery. Using colubrids they've seen the amygdala [the brain structure that serves as the "emotions computer" in mammals including humans] doing things during their mating process, during fear responses, etc. which implies something is going on in there deeper than impulsive reflex responses to real-time stimuli.

For years there was this theory in evolutionary sciences that mammal brains were simply built-up "reptilian brains" that were given additional structures by the evolutionary process. It's long been shown that birds have brains that structurally look like reptile brains with the addition of more things we know little about and that mammal brains are like bird brains with yet more things that we know even less about added onto them. 

So maybe, just maybe, what's going on in there is they have a bad or good experience with something and that triggers a basic emotion that's either good or bad. As a result of that, when a future situation presents itself the snake's amygdala starts sending "good" or "bad" vibes using basic, primitive emotions instead of using a higher cognitive process like the way our brains use memory recall.

i.e. a human might think upon walking into a dentist office about the time they went to the dentist at 5 and how they forgot to use Novocaine and started drilling into a cavity without any painkillers and that hurt really bad yet despite that a human could use reason to overcome that and conclude "but I rather not loose all my teeth" whereas a snake might only get a primitive "I hate this" feeling followed by defense mode without any overriding logic.

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_purplemuffin_ (02-21-2011)

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## Xan Powers

god this thread was a good read.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Xan Powers!

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## meatmarionette

i think a snakes level of love is basically trusting that you won't attack it and knowing you're not food...

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## DarrinLowe

> The whole "my snake recognizes me so it must love me" argument is not a very strong one. I could argue that a snake recognizes your scent as something that is non-threatening. Much like if it were in the wild. It it smells or detects no threats in an area, it will seek out the most comfortable spot. In captivity it does the same thing. Your scent is something they associate with no threats. While they may not associate you as an individual person that they become attached to, they do understand that with your smell comes no threat of predation. You are also warm, which in a home that is sitting at room temperature (72), they are going to seek out something that is radiating heat to be close to. That is often why some snakes will prefer to stay on you rather than roam the room. You are warm and they sense no threats. This does not mean they love you. It just means you are a comfy, warm, rock which no predators around.


Wouldn't the mere fact that a snake associates your scent with safety represent atleast a primitive form of love? You're contradicting yourself my friend. If a snake was only seeking warmth and security I'm sure the seemingly unnoticed by us, vibrations of the human body would be enough to throw it off. The problem is that you're being far too closed minded in your concept of love. A snake is not a human being, therefore it cannot love in a human being manner, though the snake is living so it is capable of loving in such a way, regardless of wether the snake does love in that way, does not change the fact that it is capable, in one way or another of loving. To assume that it is a simple being that merely succumbs to a genetic code, that instinctively determines it's actions would be the same as assuming that human beings are built much the same, but have evolved to such a level that our minds convince ourselves we have a purpose, so that we continue to follow our own base instincts, due to becoming too aware of ourselves as an existence. So think about the implications of your words before you voice them. 

What it comes down to, is wether you believe in god. Which provides a rather mixed perspective, as one who does not believe in god, must believe that all animals are capable of what we perceive as love, as all animals are capable of evolution. If one believes in god, then we are the mere shepards of a world of absent minded primitives that may only base their lives off of instinctive associations.

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_purplemuffin_ (02-25-2011)

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## Xan Powers

> Wouldn't the mere fact that a snake associates your scent with safety represent atleast a primitive form of love? You're contradicting yourself my friend. If a snake was only seeking warmth and security I'm sure the seemingly unnoticed by us, vibrations of the human body would be enough to throw it off. The problem is that you're being far too closed minded in your concept of love. A snake is not a human being, therefore it cannot love in a human being manner, though the snake is living so it is capable of loving in such a way, regardless of wether the snake does love in that way, does not change the fact that it is capable, in one way or another of loving. To assume that it is a simple being that merely succumbs to a genetic code, that instinctively determines it's actions would be the same as assuming that human beings are built much the same, but have evolved to such a level that our minds convince ourselves we have a purpose, so that we continue to follow our own base instincts, due to becoming too aware of ourselves as an existence. So think about the implications of your words before you voice them. 
> 
> What it comes down to, is wether you believe in god. Which provides a rather mixed perspective, as one who does not believe in god, must believe that all animals are capable of what we perceive as love, as all animals are capable of evolution. If one believes in god, then we are the mere shepards of a world of absent minded primitives that may only base their lives off of instinctive associations.


this was a phenomenal argument to the opposing side of this theory and I have to say that it does make you wonder if a humans perception of love could not be attained but rather the animals own distinction of love.  ball pythons can surely fear someone or something, wouldn't the flip side of that be associating love-like characteristics with someone or something?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Xan Powers!

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## zmd0827

> Snakes are the most Human friendly animal on this earth.They attack only if they are Hungary or when they feel threatened.


Or if they are conditioned to feeding and someone didn't hook train 'em.

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## Jay_Bunny

I am not contradicting myself. It has to do with how you are defining love.  In this discussion people seem to be associating love with affection, which a snake cannot demonstrate. If we are speaking of love as simple trust that an object or lifeform will not cause oneself harm, then yes, snakes are capable of "love". When someone strikes up conversation about their snakes loving them because the snakes kiss them with their tongue flicking or "cuddle " around their necks this is not an emotional display of love. Perhaps trust they will not come to harm but certainly not an intended expression of affection that people term as love.

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## purplemuffin

> What it comes down to, is wether you believe in god. Which provides a rather mixed perspective, as one who does not believe in god, must believe that all animals are capable of what we perceive as love, as all animals are capable of evolution. If one believes in god, then we are the mere shepards of a world of absent minded primitives that may only base their lives off of instinctive associations.


Now that's not necessarily true here. I agree with your argument actually, but as someone who believes in both science and God, I see a little different picture. I'm not crazy, I know that our emotions we feel are caused by hormonal and chemical changes in our body in reaction to sight, scent, movement, color, sound, etc. I believe that humans have instincts as well, and honestly, without being an animal how can we know that a human's feeling of just wanting to ah...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  "Mate" with the next hot babe he sees is that much different than the chemicals and instincts telling the same thing to a snake or a dog! I think it's far less advanced, but instincts and hormones create some sort of effect on an animal, and how it is interpreted in their mind is unknown to us! 

But just cause I believe in God doesn't mean I believe animals are mindless...  :Good Job:  "God is Love" and all that!

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## OhhMissTaylor

I know for a fact that not only my snake loves me, but that it takes time for them to grow an attachment to their owners. I have a ball python (Ezio) I have owned for about a month now, and ever since I got him from my roomate he was VERY sick. He had severe upper resp and seemed like he was not going to make it. After weeks of TLC (and some baytril) he is well on his way to being all better. Over these last few weeks he has gotten to where not only does his attention perk up when I hold him, he even does a "trick" of sorts. If you make the kissy noise he will (NO LIE) raise his head to your lips and lean in for a kiss. No matter where he is he always comes for that kiss. He has also gotten to where he will be laying on my chest and crawl up to my cheeks and nuzzle them like a cat. 

My proof it takes a snake time to grow this bond. My fiance just bought a Columbian redtail Boa (named Rosa) about 3 days ago and up until today she wanted nothing to do with him, but today while he was holding her, she actually fell asleep on him and when it was time to go back into her cage, she hugged him tight, and nuzzled his face. While before she fought to stay away from him at all costs, hissing,biting etc.

I do not care what any official or anyone says I fully believe my snake loves me and we have a very strong bond to one another.  :Snake:  :Embarassed:

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## Jay_Bunny

I'm not sure why you're bringing religion into this discussion.  A belief in a higher power does not automatically mean someone believes all lifeforms are capable of displaying love. I'm sorry but while snakes can form a TYPE of trust with their caretakers they most certainly do not have the capacity to love on a level that involves open displays of affection towards a particular person.

I believe in a deity but I understand that many animals are not on the same level emotionally.  Understanding they will come to no harm is one thing.  Even recognizing their caretaker is believable but I'm sorry.  My snakes and no snake I have ever had the pleasure of knowing has EVER muzzled me, given me a kiss, or sought me out for attention. They are not capable of such actions.

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## JCLIKESPYTHONS

> Snakes don't understand emotion other than "I'm gonna eat you!!!"


Yea, my snakes look at me like they are thinking, how an I gonna fit that in my mouth?

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## Thepythonman12

> currently at 7 straight jackets and counting


Lol,a lot more than that now,add one for me too  :Very Happy:  :Rolleyes2: 




> Once ten people vote " My snake loves me" I'm going to just go and jump off a cliff.


Lol would you like a parachute, :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  jk

This thread was a good read.

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## Egapal

> Wouldn't the mere fact that a snake associates your scent with safety represent atleast a primitive form of love?


No.




> You're contradicting yourself my friend. If a snake was only seeking warmth and security I'm sure the seemingly unnoticed by us, vibrations of the human body would be enough to throw it off. The problem is that you're being far too closed minded in your concept of love. A snake is not a human being, therefore it cannot love in a human being manner, though the snake is living so it is capable of loving in such a way, regardless of wether the snake does love in that way, does not change the fact that it is capable, in one way or another of loving.


Why is the fact that something is alive necessarily lead to it being capable of love?  Your logic is severely flawed.  Do trees love?  Trees are alive.  The question is does a snake have the parts of the brain where love reside.  I would say no based on my understanding of the reptile brain.





> To assume that it is a simple being that merely succumbs to a genetic code, that instinctively determines it's actions would be the same as assuming that human beings are built much the same, but have evolved to such a level that our minds convince ourselves we have a purpose, so that we continue to follow our own base instincts, due to becoming too aware of ourselves as an existence. So think about the implications of your words before you voice them.


I actually believe that humans are nothing more than animals with complex brains that extrapolate greater meaning from the behaviors driven by instincts and guided by our brains.  I don't see anything wrong with that belief.





> What it comes down to, is wether you believe in god. Which provides a rather mixed perspective, as one who does not believe in god, must believe that all animals are capable of what we perceive as love, as all animals are capable of evolution. If one believes in god, then we are the mere shepards of a world of absent minded primitives that may only base their lives off of instinctive associations.


I don't believe in any gods and I don't accept that all animals are capable of love so I would say that "must believe" is a bit of a stretch.  Perhaps you should think about the implications of your words before you voice them.  Not believing in a God or gods tells us 1 and only one thing about a person.  They do not believe in a God or gods.  Atheists hold a wide range of beliefs that are widely different and, once again, only one necessarily in common.  Don't lump Atheists together. Its as ignorant as lumping Christians or any other theists together.

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_coldblooded_ (02-28-2011),_Mft62485_ (10-16-2011),_RyanT_ (10-13-2011)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

A snake can't hear a kissing sound.. That wouldn't even make enough of a vibration for a snake to feel. They feel vibration and also vibration from certain sounds or wavelengths but they can not hear. So the snake that is smelling, or as you put it, kissing you lips after you do that, is inspecting it's surroundings. It knows you are not a threat. It can pick up the heat from your lips. It can feel and smell your breath.. etc etc..

Snakes are scientifically, biologically unable to feel the human emotion love. It's a scientific impossibility. So why is there even a question?? Thats what I don't get here. It's like saying grass is orange. The earth is shaped like a triangle. Humans hatch from eggs.. It's simply not fact and makes those people look very silly. 

One could go on forever about how their snake behaves around them but it all boils down to the facts of nature, biology, and the brains ability to feel..

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_coldblooded_ (02-28-2011)

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## DarrinLowe

Grass is orange though  :Wink:  

Study up on light physics.

You could say that my arguement is flawed, but the implications I have made are very well considered. You mere perception of this whole argument, and your profession of your own argument implies in itself that you feel above your own belief of humanities animal nature.  :Salute:  It is obvious that your logic is flawed. My statement of things that are alive being capable of feeling love is that they have in one way or another a dependency on certain aspects of their surroundings. Much like how a ball python is going to go off of feed, if it is not in the right surroundings. It is not where it is comfortable. To be able to percieve comfort, or trust, shows in itself that the animal is capable in some form of love. I think the problem here is the perception of love. Humanity has a whole whackload of conditions it puts on love.. Love is this, if this is present, or if this isnt present, blah blah blah. Love is love. Love is the attraction of itself. And in the laws of attraction, all arguments are invalid, and valid. So to merely having the capacity of saying NO you're wrong. Is only stating that you are ignorant, and have grown up in a corrupt society with the belief that the answer you have been taught is the only answer that could possibly be correct. 

"It is when man believes that he has found the answer, that all human progress has stopped"

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_minguss_ (11-24-2011)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Ok, but if you think things such as comfort, trust, or respect, which are things certain reptiles appear to be able to feel, can also be considered love, then why do we even have a different word and definition for "love"? 

I believe human love also has all those same traits, but it isn't reasonable to say reptiles can feel that emotion. It's a matter of emotion. I don't even think reptiles can feel fear in the way that we do. Defensive behavior is just that. Instinct. Kill or be killed.. Fight or flight.

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## OhhMissTaylor

In my full belief, when the word "love" was defined here it wasn't meant to be anything like human love towards another human. No I am not crazy enough to believe that my snakes loves me in the same way my fiance does. I don't believe any animal can have the complexity of love that humans carry. But I do believe they show their own form of love ie: "I recognize your scent and it is comforting to me because whenever you hold me I get warm and receive positive responses and praise, and you're warm, therefore I am going to show you affection back" or "I am really sick and every time you come near me I know that I get Qtipsshoved down my throat but its making me feel better so I am going to give you affection because you are warm and make me feel better."(And no I do not think a snake knows what a Qtip is for all the people that are overly litteral here.) But either way, don't assume when people say that word love it is they type of love that a human shares with a human, think more like a cat, it's the only animal I've been able to compare a snake to so far.

Also, we don't know what animals are truly thinking. Maybe our snakes "love us" maybe they just see us as a huge freaking goal to eat when they get bigger much like the "adult" plate when you're a kid. All I know is something makes me snake show some forms of affection with me, and if all the science buffs on here want to truly believe that their snake is a mindless killing machine that only doesn't eat them because it doesn't think it can then you can have that. But I am a believer, I am a dreamer, and I think my snake loves me!!!!

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JamieH (03-08-2011),musclebabe (03-01-2011),_purplemuffin_ (03-03-2011)

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## DarrinLowe

We don't have a different word for love. It's that we are too surrounded in the language presented to us in life that we have abandoned the language of our minds. 
Human love is only different because we tried to define it. And in the generalized definition of what we think love should be, we have changed it all together, atleast from the human perspective. Thus creating, human love. Which only resembles love in the slightest essence. Love, even at it's simplest form, is still love.

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## zmd0827

I just thought of something.  Perhaps not ball pythons... But this could apply to an array of other snakes... My answer would be, "Yes, a snake can love." Or at least "like" you.  Reticulated pythons can "choose" individuals.  They choose who they get along with, and who they loathe.

In a sense, that's love.  "I'd love to not bite you" scenario...

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## JamieH

> So, you are saying that love, whatever that term may mean or whatever you think it means, is incapable of emerging from any lower level functioning area of the brain.  Or if you prefer Freudian terms, love can only spring from the Ego.  I disagree.
> 
> I think the main problem with this discussion, other than the sophomoric glee people are extracting from their feelings of supposed superiority to others, is that the word love is by far the most overly used word in the English language.  Do I think a snake is capable of love like romantic love?  Of course not.  Do I think a snake is capable of love like the love that The Christ or The Buddha had for the world?  Absolutely not.  Do I even think that a snake can feel empathy?  Again, no.  But can a snake feel safe, secure, emboldened, and not threatened by another being living in close proximity to it?  Yes, I do.  And those feelings are some of the feelings that I ascribe to the word love.
> 
> The idea of love encompasses many things.  To extract love of all but its logical and emotional elements is to diminish it.




Agree^^

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## littlered

my snakes love me. i dont care what people say, i can believe what i want  :Very Happy:

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musclebabe (03-10-2011)

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## cecilbturtle

i know this is an old thread. i also know the question is about snakes but i had a snapping turtle, well actually hatched a snapping turtle. he would only let me hold him. and when i did he would ram his face into my hand (mouth closed of course). it really appeared that he was making sure it was me. when he confirmed it was me he would literally go limp and just relax. 

i know what science tells us and i wont argue that but i do believe that sometimes there is something more. i mean some species of snakes care for their eggs and, dont quote me on this, but i think all crocadilians guard thier nests? i know its a propagation of the species instinct but i still think there is something going on that cant be explained by science.

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_minguss_ (11-24-2011)

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## Wapadi

I do not think my snakes love me but I do know my first ball, a pastel female, definately knows when I am home or not.  Any time I come home from work or shopping or whatever she comes halfway out of her hide, lifts up her head pretty far, I talk to her and then she goes away.  She doesn't do that for my husband.  I also know I am the only one that feeds her soooo....... :Razz:

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## Xan Powers

> my snakes love me. i dont care what people say, i can believe what i want


lol if you're going to state an opinion this is the way to do it hahaha. no room for questioning there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. Xan Powers!

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## asixtwo

When my big female macklotts DOESN'T try to bite me on the face....
I guess that could count as love..... :Razz:

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## dryates

> No.
> 
> 
> 
> Why is the fact that something is alive necessarily lead to it being capable of love?  Your logic is severely flawed.  Do trees love?  Trees are alive.  The question is does a snake have the parts of the brain where love reside.  I would say no based on my understanding of the reptile brain.
> !
> 
> 
> I actually believe that humans are nothing more than animals with complex brains that extrapolate greater meaning from the behaviors driven by instincts and guided by our brains.  I don't see anything wrong with that belief.
> ...



Trees love photosynthesis because they need it
To live, jk

But for the sake of the argument, does it really matter if someone wants to believe there snake loves them or not, besides, to all no snake people we are all crazy anyways!!

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## iHAZreptiles

I think this should only be for people with a few snakes instead of breeders with 20+ that never get played with.

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JRSCB16A2 (10-13-2011)

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## mark and marley

my snake loves me.it rips its prey in half and offers me the other half then cuddles with me.
thats love :Snake:  :Very Happy:

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_Munizfire_ (09-22-2011)

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## Maixx

Love...? I don't know..
Are they mindless eating machines, I don't think so, they have traits that show on some level an individual personality.

Are they social, I don't know, but my 2 bp's are in individual vivs sitting right next to each other. There was one time I took my female to the vet to get checked out, she was gone for 7 hours, in that time my pastel trashed his tank, flipping his hides and getting rub marks on his nose. This was the only time he did ever did this.. So did he stress because she was gone? I don't know but something set him off and he has not done it since.

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## Mariah Leigh Mills

> Well, its not an opinion. Its a fact that snakes can't love or hate.


how would you know? are you a snake? nope, didnt think so.

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_minguss_ (11-24-2011)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> how would you know? are you a snake? nope, didnt think so.


According to the Chinese calendar I am.....  :Wink:

----------


## Aes_Sidhe

> According to the Chinese calendar I am.....


 :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:

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## SpartaDog

I didn't vote because I don't believe either. I don't think my snake "loves" me, per say, even affection is pushing it, but I do not believe that snakes cannot feel emotion. Snakes can be happy, angry, excited, etc, and every keeper knows they have moods. But I don't believe snakes can "love" their keepers, at least not in the way we do. Build trust that only applies to one individual, yes. But not "love".

EDIT: Apparently the poll says I did vote. But this is my new opinion.

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## KLMuller

> EDIT: Apparently the poll says I did vote. But this is my new opinion.


 awesome lol 


Sent from my DROIDX

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## Munizfire

im not gonna go as far as to say that she loves me, but I do think she recognizes me, and is kinda friendly towards me. Why do I think so? I have a neighbor (who NOBODY stands) that everytime he goes real near to my BP she balls up immediately and if he tries to pick her up she WILL hiss, I'm not kidding, I now refuse to let him near her at any time. Another thing I use to 'back up my theory' is that she RARELY (Almost never) balls up when I grab her, whilst she regularly balls up in everybody's hand.

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## cmack91

i voted that i know my snake doesnt love, nor can he, but at least he's nice enough to deal with me and let me take him out and mess with him whenever i want :Very Happy:

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## Twist

I dont think that snakes are capable of love but on the flip side I think they're capable of understanding that we aren't a threat, and some form of coexistence is formed. I know one thing though, my snake loves to have her chin rubbed, and she will sit there for a few minutes while you rub right under her jaw.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## mattchibi

> i voted that i know my snake doesnt love, nor can he, but at least he's nice enough to deal with me and let me take him out and mess with him whenever i want


This ^^  :Razz:   I think you would be surprised.  There is a lot of coexistence in the wild with many different animals, many types of animals will graze and chill in the same area because they know they are not a harm to each other.   Sometimes, in the wild, there is one dominant predator that everyone is scared of, and I guess this unites all the other animals..

That's the way I look at my snakes and me.  Although snakes may not LIKE it when we take them out and play with them, I think they can also definitely grow accustomed to your touch, to your habits, to your way of handling them, to the point where they recognize somebody who isnt you and is nervous, versus you.  Snakes can learn to co-exist too, and when there are no visible predators for years and years of their lives, I think they can "settle" in a bit and get much more comfortable than they were when you first got them.  And they will grow to realize after many handling sessions that they always get to go back in their comfy little cage.

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evan385 (11-02-2011)

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## evan385

If we all know and it is a fact and has been proven by science that snakes are instinctual creatures and can not in fact feel or show emotion, then why is this poll almost 50/50?

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## evan385

> This ^^   I think you would be surprised.  There is a lot of coexistence in the wild with many different animals, many types of animals will graze and chill in the same area because they know they are not a harm to each other.   Sometimes, in the wild, there is one dominant predator that everyone is scared of, and I guess this unites all the other animals..
> 
> That's the way I look at my snakes and me.  Although snakes may not LIKE it when we take them out and play with them, I think they can also definitely grow accustomed to your touch, to your habits, to your way of handling them, to the point where they recognize somebody who isnt you and is nervous, versus you.  Snakes can learn to co-exist too, and when there are no visible predators for years and years of their lives, I think they can "settle" in a bit and get much more comfortable than they were when you first got them.  And they will grow to realize after many handling sessions that they always get to go back in their comfy little cage.


^ This, I completely agree with this. Well said Matt. While I don't believe that snakes can feel or show emotion, they are instinctual creatures and are incapable of this. However I do believe that a snake can trust you, not in the same way as we can trust another person but in their own way. Because they are instinctual, I believe they can learn to associate your scent with food, heat, and a warm place to live.

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## JeffD

> If we all know and it is a fact and has been proven by science that snakes are instinctual creatures and can not in fact feel or show emotion, then why is this poll almost 50/50?


because they can!!  They are alive, just ask them.. :Razz:

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> because they can!!  They are alive, just ask them..


Yeah just like my scorpions can! Just because they are alive! They love me to pieces! That little stinger and those claws are all about the LOVE! :p

----------


## decensored

I don't think snakes feel emotions.  I think they can become comfortable with certain people based on mutual respect but other than that...

----------


## Yeti

> *high-fives Gin!*
> 
> I have my revenge tho...Cleo peed on her Daddy *and* his favorite chair (Rick's lazyboy) last night - muwhahahhaha!
> 
> Someone seriously needs to come up with snake diapers.


My true sd retic wouldn't _poop_ for weeks but the second I'd take her out she would pinch one off on me lmao. I used to curse about it every time but since she's passed I kinda miss the clean ups.


Now as for my snakes loving me not love per say as a cat or dogshow it but my  baby pastel ball lifts her head like a cat when I scratch her chin. Lizards I'm not sure but I think they are a lot more affectionate then snakes. Just my opinion :p

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## Redneck_Crow

My snakes only love me for as long as I have a rat in my hand, and sometimes not even then.

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## enchantress62

If I may challange your free thinking minds for a moment.  What do we really know about the way a snake feels or thinks?  We have studies we can quote but how accurate are they?  Let's imagine that the best study shows brain waves telling us that snakes have limited thought patterns in relation to specific stimuli.  Okay, that's great but what if someone came up with a machine that would interpret what a snake is really thinking?  Don't laugh to loudly, remember that at one time people thought the world was flat.  Why did they think that?  Because the information they had, at the time, supported that perception.  It wasn't until a free thinking person went beyond the horizon that we learned the truth.

I believe that "FACT" can be changed as new information is presented and history shows us that even the most proovable theories are changable as with the egg.  Twenty years ago we were told to only eat the white of the egg because the yoke contained harmful colesterol.  Well now we know that the egg is the only complete protien in our food system and that places a different light on it all together.

Do snakes love?  I don't think that question can be answered right now unless someone comes up with a way to become a snake and communicate what it's feeling.  But....  The possibilities are intriguing.

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## RobNJ

My snakes don't give a crap about me, lol.

That being said, I think they have learning capabilities...though I'd lean towards that not being a result of cognition as much as impression. Not at all saying you can train a snake, but they definitely can be conditioned. I also think they can differentiate between people, based on my own personal experience.

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## Emily Hubbard

I didn't vote because I feel both are false. 

My cat loves me (sometimes), my snake does not. I don't think she loves me, nor do I think she misses me when I leave. But I don't think she without emotion or without an understanding of my existence as a neutral force in her world. I'm not a threat to her, but nor am I edible. I am a fixture of her environment, and if she is an exploratory mood, I am interesting. If she is a cranky or lazy mood, then I am annoying. Simple as that.

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## zeion97

> I didn't vote because I feel both are false. 
> 
> My cat loves me (sometimes), my snake does not. I don't think she loves me, nor do I think she misses me when I leave. But I don't think she without emotion or without an understanding of my existence as a neutral force in her world. I'm not a threat to her, but nor am I edible. I am a fixture of her environment, and if she is an exploratory mood, I am interesting. If she is a cranky or lazy mood, then I am annoying. Simple as that.


How can you prove a cat loves? How can you prove a BP loves? how can you prove ANYTHING loves? We can quote anything we want.. In the end, it's worthless... We're not cats, dogs or even Elephants. We can say all this scientific stuff we want.. But we can't really prove it.. What we need is a mind reader for animals.  :Razz:

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## satomi325

In my opinion, snakes do not 'love'. Love is a human emotion. We as humans tend to anthropomorphasize animals. We treat them as if they are human even though they are not. 
However, Animals may exhibit affection or a similar raw behavior. Animals may have their own version of what we call 'love', but it should not be categorized in the same level as a human as they are not humans....

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

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_zeion97_ (02-10-2012)

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## Otolith

I think my snakes tolerate me.

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## bellaroyal

i know facts but i disagree even with the facts. my ball Bella won't go to anyone other the my boyfriend and I. If someone else picks her up she balls up and won't move. If we pick her up she roams freely up and down are arms and around our hands.

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## sbit

I voted "my snake loves me" even though I don't really believe this  :Razz: 

I can't speculate on whether or not snakes feel emotion. But I do know my snake seems to "know" me and tolerate me over others: he accepts me handling him easily but is very fearful of strangers and quickly flees. Either he recognizes that I am familiar and probably harmless, or there's some quality I have (smaller hands? moves slower?) that scares him less. And that's good enough for me!  :Very Happy:

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sandra (03-04-2012)

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## enchantress62

I'm just curious.  What studies have been done to determine how a snake thinks?  I mean it's pretty obvious that the general oppinion is that snakes have no emotion and yet "fear" can be considered an emotion.  I would really like to read doccumentation if anyone knows of a study that has been done and can show the basis for this belief.  I'm not trying to be sarcastic I would really like to know.

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sandra (03-04-2012)

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## sandra

well, i know they don't feel love or hate but i do believe they recognized things...cause my ball python acts completely different with different people. it could just be my smell. but i cant say it wants or shows affection cause that is impossible but as i said before, i think they can recognize certain people if they see them almost everyday lol i don't think they think "i want to eat you" to everything. maybe if i smelt like rat or something, cause thats all my python has ever known it can eat.

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## ballbuster

It's kind if scary how many of you believe your snake(s) loves you...

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## rebelrachel13

> It's kind if scary how many of you believe your snake(s) loves you...


I was thinking the same. But to each their own!!  :Wink:

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## Vasiliki

Seeing as not too long ago, many people believed (and most still do) that pigs are unintelligent animals... I am inclined to lean towards the: "My snake has emotions, in her own snakey way."

Not long ago people thought Pigs were dumb. Now, after various studies, did you know that the common pig is actually more intelligent than dolphins and apes? 

They put a dot of paint on the forehead of various elephants in captivity. The elephants were then shown a mirror for the first time. Instantly they would reach up and touch the dot on their forehead, showing that they had instant self recognition.

Yet, people still don't believe these animals are capable of that kind of unique thought process. Some people still don't believe that dolphins are intelligent or capable of thoughts and unique emotions.

I understand it. Everybody has their own set of experiences and opinions of how the world works, and those within it.

Do I think my snake loves me? No. Do I think she can show her own kind of snakey emotion in certain circumstances? Yes. The same way my cat can show times of super affection, then fierce independence.

We're always learning, and we're always discovering new things about the world. To say that animals don't feel emotions because they don't express them like we do, have the same size brain or brain activity as us doesn't mean that they lack these 'emotions'. It just means that we aren't at a point where we can determine 100% "YES" or "NO". 

People still argue that fish can't feel pain, because they don't 'outwardly exprses it like we do'. So, that means an animal must behave like us in order to share traits that we also possess? That seems just a bit silly to me  :Wink: 

Nah. I don't think my animals 'love me' in the same way I love my boyfriend or I love them, but that isn't to say they don't recognize me as different from 'strangers'. And that shows some type of ability to differentiate between something familiar and something foreign. If that comes across as 'My snake likes me', then that's just my way of putting to words that my animal doesn't feel the need to completely freak out when I'm near him. Is that love? Some people could call it that. I don't freak out when my boyfriend hugs me, but I do freak out when a stranger does. 

I guess it's a fun topic and some lovely grey areas that keep this interesting! As long as my snake doesn't bite me every time I pick her up, I'll take that as 'snakey affection'. Even if all that 'snake affection' means is that she doesn't treat me like I'm going to kill her. That's a win in my book.

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Arcapello (07-30-2012),_Navy_ (07-03-2012)

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## dragonsong93

I completely agree with Vasiliki ^

Chickens have also been proven to be on par with dogs & cats, and have actually been compared to primates as well (with brainpower). Most people just think of them as the 'stupid' birds that are always on the dinner table  :Wag of the finger:  Just another one of those unexpectedly smart animals.

But my snakes probably just recognize me as the one who brings food and doesn't cause them harm. :Wink:

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## Miss Brie

No I don't think he loves me, but I definitely notice that if someone else holds him he finds his way back to me and then settles down. I feel like its more that "ahhh this big warm thing I don't know is holding me it might eat me, let me go find that other warm thing that I KNOW won't eat me" than actual emotion on his part  :Razz:  

In the same way that it is tempting to put all our deep emotions on our snakes, its also tempting to hold steadfastly to the opposite ("snakes have not emotions/feelings/cannot recognize their owners"). Both of these are incorrect, if they are held to in the face of observation and evidence; we learn new things every day about how the world works. The fact is, it has happened consistently over time, so to disregard my real world observations would be JUST as silly and wrong as me going "my snake loves me and adores me and loves cuddling." The best conclusion I can make, based on observation, is that some part of him does recognize me and is able to locate me among other humans and seek me out, and on some level feels safer with me than other people. I can't make any assumptions about if he "loves" me, but then again I can't really even say that about any pets I own. I just don't know! But I still love them <3

I saw someone post somewhere on here, but I can't find it, that "proof" that snakes dont recognize their owners at all and can't process thought was that sometimes people can get killed by their large pythons (and "did they just 'forget' who their owner was?"). My problem with this is that large cats are generally agreed to be intelligent, emotive creatures, yet occasionally you hear stories about zoo keepers or large cat owners being killed by their animal. But no one uses these cases to argue that cats are incapable of recognizing people, but rather its just a case of instinct trumps all (which is the same, but stronger, with snakes).

I'm a new snake owner, but my whole life I've had an amateur interest in biology and science. I know that no matter how many books or articles I read, that doesn't make me an expert, but I do still try and be informed. And thats really the best I can do!

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## PorcelainxDoll

Does my snake love me... No. .Does he recognie me and prefer me...yes

Whenever my husnand and i have gypsy out he always ends up coming to me it never fails. We let him on the bed and he always ends up climbing up me and sleeping on my shoulder. Also i know its not because im warmer my husbands,body temp is is at least 4 degrees warmer then me.

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## Navy

I don't think it's more of a love thing but more as a "I don't find you a threat" thing and "I enjoy being held" thing

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## Kodieh

To say that something can experience fear isn't necessarily saying its capable of emotion. Everything has a fight or flight reaction to stimulation, so there is your "fear" I suppose. But, I agree that it's snake love and not the way we define love. They just get an understand of "the hand that feeds", I think.  :Wink: 


Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone  :Smile:

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## cinnamonpython

i think my snake can feel emotion but we have no way to comprehend what  goes on in their head

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## Navy

> To say that something can experience fear isn't necessarily saying its capable of emotion. Everything has a fight or flight reaction to stimulation, so there is your "fear" I suppose. But, I agree that it's snake love and not the way we define love. They just get an understand of "the hand that feeds", I think. 
> 
> 
> Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone


z2
Yeah, the Fight or Flight is an instinct, not an emotion.

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## Vasiliki

To give it some prespective, it wasn't long ago that people considered dolphins 'fish' and thought that they weren't intelligent either. Similar thought was also applied to the great apes.

So to say that they do not have emotion is a bit of a narrow view. 

What would be a more logical statement would be:

We currently do not have the means to determine with 100% certainty whether or not they are capable of emotions. 

So to say for sure one way or another is to be ignorant of the fact that we just *can't* know at this time with our current technology and experience in analyzing thought/emotion in other species.

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Arcapello (07-30-2012)

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## Arcapello

> To give it some prespective, it wasn't long ago that people considered dolphins 'fish' and thought that they weren't intelligent either. Similar thought was also applied to the great apes.
> 
> So to say that they do not have emotion is a bit of a narrow view. 
> 
> What would be a more logical statement would be:
> 
> We currently do not have the means to determine with 100% certainty whether or not they are capable of emotions. 
> 
> So to say for sure one way or another is to be ignorant of the fact that we just *can't* know at this time with our current technology and experience in analyzing thought/emotion in other species.


I completely agree with you. Humans underestimate the intelligence of other animals (Which is what humans are- *animals*). What gives us the right to judge others intelligence? I'm sure all animals know more than what we think they do. I'm sure that some are even smarter than us.

It's just that we don't know for sure; Maybe we never will.

So my opinion would be: Undecided/Unsure (due to lack of information)

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CCarr33 (08-17-2012),_snakey68_ (09-12-2012)

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## CCarr33

If snakes are mindless why does my BP bite at everyone but me?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

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anicatgirl (01-27-2015),Arcapello (08-28-2012)

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## Crazy4Herps

The biggest difference between snakes and dolphins / humans / dogs / etc is that snakes are not social animals. Naturally, they receive no benefit from social interaction beyond breeding. They do not raise their young or hunt in packs or thrive in communities. We are emotionally attached to other humans because we need to be. Snakes do not. Many animals besides ourselves are capable of feeling emotion, but asocial animals such as snakes are not.

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rabernet (09-12-2012)

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## gsarchie

> To give it some prespective, it wasn't long ago that people considered dolphins 'fish' and thought that they weren't intelligent either. Similar thought was also applied to the great apes.
> 
> So to say that they do not have emotion is a bit of a narrow view. 
> 
> What would be a more logical statement would be:
> 
> We currently do not have the means to determine with 100% certainty whether or not they are capable of emotions. 
> 
> So to say for sure one way or another is to be ignorant of the fact that we just *can't* know at this time with our current technology and experience in analyzing thought/emotion in other species.


Absolutely not.  We can know that snakes don't feel emotion as they lack certain parts of the brain, parts that humans and dolphins possess, that process emotion.  Also, to say that you will with hold any decision either way until we have 100% certainty that they dont feel emotion is you putting yourself out of ever having to make a decision.  Scientific findings typically find 95% or higher probability to be statistically significant, so setting the bar at 100% is rather convenient for you, isn't it?

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_Navy_ (10-23-2012),rabernet (09-12-2012),_snakey68_ (09-12-2012)

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## darthkevin

Wow this got emotional really fast didn't it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## snakey68

> Absolutely not.  We can know that snakes don't feel emotion as they lack certain parts of the brain, parts that humans and dolphins possess, that process emotion.  Also, to say that you will with hold any decision either way until we have 100% certainty that they dont feel emotion is you putting yourself out of ever having to make a decision.  Scientific findings typically find 95% or higher probability to be statistically significant, so setting the bar at 100% is rather convenient for you, isn't it?



I was beginning to lose all hope till you posted that lol  

I seriously cannot get my head round what some people believe  :ROFL:

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_gsarchie_ (09-12-2012),rabernet (09-12-2012)

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## gsarchie

Not really fast Kevin, as this thread is over 6 years old!  Also, are you 21+?  If so we are getting beers when I get home from Afghanistan in 2 1/2 months.

Snakey - I am with you about wrapping my head around what some folks believe.  It honestly saddens me that 48% of the people on this site honestly believe that their snakes "love" them.  :headslap:

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_snakey68_ (09-12-2012)

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## arialmt

Emotions are chemical reaction that lock situations into long term memory. This requires physical parts of the brain that reptiles do not have. Conditioning on the other hand is simply adaptation, something all creatures do. My $.02

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_gsarchie_ (09-13-2012),_snakey68_ (09-12-2012)

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## iPanda

I agree with conditioning. My snakes trust me, and remember that I do not hurt them. Though, playing devils advocate, the two base emotions that every creature has are fear and love (the boyfriend brought this up). So in THAT sense, yes. But not in the way that WE love. Their 'love' is merely trust.

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## snakey68

> I agree with conditioning. My snakes trust me, and remember that I do not hurt them. Though, playing devils advocate, the two base emotions that every creature has are fear and love (the boyfriend brought this up). So in THAT sense, yes. But not in the way that WE love. Their 'love' is merely trust.



every creature has two base emotions fear and love,  where did you gather that piece of information I am curious as to how you would substantiate that.

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> Not really fast Kevin, as this thread is over 6 years old!  Also, are you 21+?  If so we are getting beers when I get home from Afghanistan in 2 1/2 months.
> 
> Snakey - I am with you about wrapping my head around what some folks believe.  It honestly saddens me that 48% of the people on this site honestly believe that their snakes "love" them.  :headslap:



Aye mate it is baffling and very worrying also headslapping seems like a plan .....48% target efficiency should suffice  :Razz: 

And on a more serious note for a second , I commend your commitment and dedication your a brave man to do the job you do and its good to hear your getting home soon :Good Job:

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## iPanda

http://www.anapsid.org/tamingvh.html

basically, they have a hypothalamus, thus are capable of FEELING emotion, but they lack a way to express it. (that's the article in a nutshell)

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## gsarchie

Snakey - Thank you very much.  I love what I do but it can be incredibly hard at times, like now at the tail end of a deployment.


*This is straight from the article that you quoted iPanda.*
"How do I know, the animal likes me or what I am doing?

The Hypothalamus is the part of the brain where most of our emotions come from. All reptiles have one, so they have feelings. Since they cannot talk, we don't know for sure, what feelings they have beyond the most basic ones. 

The most basic emotions are fear, aggression, and pleasure. I don't think anyone will argue, that reptiles don't have these feelings and express them. They avoid what they fear, attack what makes them angry, and seek out what is pleasurable. 

If you create an environment that is comfortable and pleasant, and you do things to your pet that make it feel comfortable and pleased, then the reptile will 'like' you in the sense that good things come from you, and therefore it wants to be with you. 
In general, you will know quickly, if you do something your reptile does not like: it will try to get away or even bite. 

Whether reptiles have more complex feelings, like 'liking', is a hard question, and I would give a guarded 'yes' for chelonians, but I don't know about others. In order to like someone, the animal has to distinguish between people and clearly prefer some over others. Chelonians do tell people apart, and they prefer some people over others. I noticed to my surprise, that there are people my friendly snake does not like for no reason I can make out. 

One person relates that he has a very social turtle: When he reads a book on the floor, the turtle comes by and climbs on his back. He'll sit there for up to 15 minutes. 

Make up your own mind, and you are probably right ..."

First the author makes some wild claims without any data to substantiate these claims, and at the end says make up your own mind, and you are probably right.  If you believe anything that comes out of this person's mouth then I'd like to tell you why you should always vote the way that I vote and have the opinions that I have, as you appear to be easily swayed to ones viewpoint just becuase they tell you that what they _believe_ is fact.  Let me say that I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just trying to make a point.

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And reading this some more, the punctuation is horrible and the grammar could use a bit of work.  This was not an article written by someone with an educatin based off of facts that they have learned through experience.  It seems more and more to me that it is just full of someones opinions.

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_Ogre_ (09-13-2012)

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## iPanda

punctuation has nothing to do with it. I don't believe they 'feel' like we do, but they have the capability.

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## gsarchie

Hmmm...  you state that they have the ability to feel as fact while having no evidence what-so-ever to back it up.  What is so hard about not making claims without the evidence to support it?  You can believe something all you want, but belief alone won't make it so.  

Case in point:  I believe that there is a small porcelain teapot orbiting the sun in between Mars and Jupiter.  What's that, you say that it's impossible but that you can't disprove it because a teapot is too small and the area too great to search?  Well, I believe it and you can't disprove it so it is there.

That sounds ridiculous, right?  Here's how real science works - someone that makes a claim, outlandish or otherwise, and then they bear the responsiblity to provide evidence to support it.  It is not the responsibility of the rest of the scientific community to refute the claim.  If you want to claim that snakes or any other reptiles have feelings, or even the ability to feel, then it is your responsibility to provide the evidence, not mine.

Dictionary.Reference.com defines delusion as: "a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact."  In my opinion, believing that your snakes can love you is delusional.  I used to say that multiple people sharing a delusion was called religion, but apparently it applies to 48% of ball python owners as well!  LOL  :headslap:

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_Ogre_ (09-13-2012),_snakey68_ (09-13-2012)

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## Ogre

I personally don't believe that snakes have emotions, and that said my fiance does. It used to bother me but I really don't care as long as my snake is 'happy' aka healthy, because thats all any animal wild, tame or human really wants. I also agree with gsarjchie that if someone wants to prove that snakes have emotions then they need to have evidence beyond, someone posted this on the internet. Some times it does seem like my snakes are 'enjoying' themselfs, but honestly its just me enjoying a beautiful creature.

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_gsarchie_ (09-14-2012)

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## Tigerlilly

It annoys me that members of this site are so hostile towards each other. It's like a constant competition on who can be more of a stuck up know it all. There is no reason to be condescending towards ANYONE'S viewpoints. YES, I BELIEVE MY SNAKE HAS FEELINGS. I can tell when he's pissed off at me. He will swivel his head back and forth squirm to get away when i've caught him mid-escape. I can sense his fury and know his life goal is to be free.... One time i put my red tailed columbian boa in a box overnight due to tank issues.... the next morning she was so angry with me she hissed and struck at me every time i tried picking her up. BUT i can also tell when she is happy to see me.... how she will calm down the second she is around my neck.... she loves car rides, and hates when i try to take her from her favorite looking spot(the drivers side head rest). And when i take her to the beach, she loves going in the water, but always lets me know when she's had enough. I don't look at my snakes as objects. They are family to me. It saddens me to see how many people have not bonded with their ball pythons.... If they had, they would realize just how much personality they have.

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_arialmt_ (12-12-2012),GoldSheep (10-08-2012)

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## lilrosiehill

I, for one, am convinced that my Roses and Flash simply worship me!!!  *giggles*  Seriously,, it is as if they can tell when *mama* is handling them....   :Snake:

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## Austin C.

> It annoys me that members of this site are so hostile towards each other. It's like a constant competition on who can be more of a stuck up know it all. There is no reason to be condescending towards ANYONE'S viewpoints. YES, I BELIEVE MY SNAKE HAS FEELINGS. I can tell when he's pissed off at me. He will swivel his head back and forth squirm to get away when i've caught him mid-escape. I can sense his fury and know his life goal is to be free.... One time i put my red tailed columbian boa in a box overnight due to tank issues.... the next morning she was so angry with me she hissed and struck at me every time i tried picking her up. BUT i can also tell when she is happy to see me.... how she will calm down the second she is around my neck.... she loves car rides, and hates when i try to take her from her favorite looking spot(the drivers side head rest). And when i take her to the beach, she loves going in the water, but always lets me know when she's had enough. I don't look at my snakes as objects. They are family to me. It saddens me to see how many people have not bonded with their ball pythons.... If they had, they would realize just how much personality they have.


Ok your snakes aren't dogs, stop treating them like it...They shouldn't be swimming in saltwater at the beach #1 and taking them for a car ride is not going to calm them down. I seriously don't get these delusional people who believe their snake is like their cat or dog, it doesn't work that way. This is all a snake does and ever wants to do.... Eat, Breed and Escape from whatever cage it's in. People get a little mental and carried away when it comes to pets in general, your snake shouldn't be something you carry everywhere you go. Handle it for 20-30min a day at home and that should really be it.

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_Navy_ (10-23-2012)

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## HaikyFin

I have to point out, from the page before -




> http://www.anapsid.org/tamingvh.html
> 
> basically, they have a hypothalamus, thus are capable of FEELING emotion, but they lack a way to express it. (that's the article in a nutshell)


A hypothalamus doesn't have anything to do with emotion, I study Psychology. It controls the basic processes of the brain - the metabolism, thirst, hunger and other basic responses. It controls the release of chemicals to start these processes. It really has nothing to do with feeling...and it is a little alarming that people will take a big word out of an article and assume that the person who wrote it was using it correctly or knows what they're talking about. 

The amygdala is responsible for emotions, basically. Snakes don't have one. Humans are, of course, most famous for theirs. 

As far as any animal loving anyone or anything - it's a bit of a moot point. "Love" is a term coined by humans to try and label what I think is a natural feeling for social creatures. It is a chemical reaction that keeps social animals bonded to their groups or mates for the sake of survival. No other animal rationalizes or analyzes anything like we do. These reactions serve only as a means to create a response - in the case of "love", keeping an animal with another animal for easier access to food or more protection for their offspring. They don't wonder why or whether or not they are loved back, it isn't important. Furthermore, I believe this simple process only exists in social animals because, honestly, why would a solitary creature need to feel bonded or close to anything else? It wants to be alone and it's complete makeup - physical and mental - are geared toward surviving alone. It has no reason to want the company of another and, in many cases, reason to dislike other company - because that means competition for food/mates, a predator or something else negative. Not a "friend". 

That's my .02. I'm not being hostile - I'm trying to educate. People are too crazy and extreme nowadays and fads rule the world. It seems people are being taught what to think and I, for one, think it's wrong and empty-headed to believe anything that may be popular. Get the _facts_ (the right ones), analyze them and make a decision yourself - regardless of what the media, press or your neighbor might say.

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_gsarchie_ (10-09-2012)

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## gsarchie

Great post HaikyFin, I couldn't agree more myself.  In my response I wasn't so worried about what a hypothalamus does or whether or not a snake had one but more with the fact that the article that was quoted is completely unreliable in terms of having accurate information.

Tigerlilly - 
1) If me and others trying to educate people with things that we have learned through our education and professions comes across as us walking around with our noses in the air then I would suggest to thicken up your skin just a tad.  Nothing that I read came across as condescending in any way.  I am guessing that you just don't understand how frustrating it is to have people say things that are simply not true when it relates to something that is important to us and that we are knowledgable about.  One of my professors in college conducted research and subsequently wrote a paper that showed that Canebrake Rattlesnakes were not a subspecies of Timber Rattlesnakes but are in fact the same species.  As a result I always hate hearing people talk about "canebrakes."

2) Taking your snake for car rides is exceptionally irresponsible and is not good for your snake.  As stated by HaikyFin, reptiles are not social animals.  Even being handled at home for short periods is stressful however not stressful enough to cause adverse health effects.  This is evidenced by the fact that handling can cause WC snakes to go on a feeding strike for months at a time.  Aside from being stressful a snake free in a car could easily cause an accident.  What if your snake left its "favorite spot" and distracted you from the road long enough for you to drift into another lane or utility pole?  What if the snake became agitated and bit your head or slithered across your eyes?  Putting your snake into the water to go "swimming" is also excpetionally irresponsible.  Please, share with us how you can tell that the snake has had enough swimming?  Finally, your snake wasn't "mad" at you for putting it into a box, it was incredibly stressed out and felt unsafe/threatened, and defended itself the only way that it knew how, by striking at you.  Also, what were the "tank issues" that caused you to not be able to properly house your snakes?  I hope it wasn't a cardboard box, unless of course you taped it completely shut to ensure that escape was impossible.

If you honetly think that your snake has feelings, in light of overwelming scientific evidence, then by definition you are suffering from delusions, plain and simple.  I think that my snakes are awesome and get a great amount of enjoyment from keeping them, and this is in no way diminished by the fact that they don't have any emotion for me what-so-ever.  I always say that I don't care what people believe about their snakes as long as they are kept safely and humanely.  I don't feel that you keep your snake in a safe manner and would ask you to please start doing so.  If you must transport your snake for the purpose of moving or seeking medical care for it then please put it into either a pillowcase or into a tub with a lid secured.  If in a clear tub I would cover it with a sheet so that it can't see what is going on outside of the vehicle, as this would just be added stress.

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## gsarchie

In the new posts section this shows the last post as being from last night but my post from a week ago is the last.

Mods - was something edited and it is showing up as being new?

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> In the new posts section this shows the last post as being from last night but my post from a week ago is the last.
> 
> Mods - was something edited and it is showing up as being new?


Nothing was edited your last post from the 9th was indeed last however since this is a poll every time someone new votes it bumps the thread back up as if someone posted something new. 



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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## gsarchie

Awesome Deb, thanks for explaining that one.   :Smile:

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## Navy

I think people overestimate what our pets can actually do.
Yeah, I'd love to believe that my snakes care about me, if I left their life they'd be affected in an emotional way or are happy to see me when I walk by, but let's face reality here. Snakes have extremely small brains, and as someone had mentioned earlier their brains aren't made with the capability to feel emotion. 

People mistake conditioning with trust or happiness, and their fight or flight instinct with fear or anger, these are instincts, not emotions.

If you want to do this with your harmless snakes, fine, but some quacks take it to the next level with venomous snakes and big cats.
There is nothing wrong with keeping an animal like that, but the second you start thinking the animal likes you and trusts you, you're a ticking time bomb for disaster.

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## pazura16

Definitely. Whenever I'm sitting at my desk she (my snake) comes out from under her log and gives me the most adorable look of, "please take me out, I love you". Call me crazy, but I just can't believe they feel no emotion.

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## Solarsoldier001

I think my snakes understand I feed them and give them fresh water. Some just stare at me and wait for me to come with food for them. Hmmm or maybe they are seeking affection lol  :Wink: 


Sent from iPhone 5 using tapatalk  :Smile:

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## Bluebonnet Herp

I don't think I interpreted the question like the rest of you. I would never believe a snake would ever love me, however, I'm quite sure they are capable of simple emotions such as fear and pleasure. I have also recognized keeper recognition in some individuals. That said, it's worth noting they are vertebrates and have the mind of a vertebrate, as opposed to invertebrates such a tarantulas, who are truly void of emotion. (Even then, there is noted 'intelligence' contributed towards cockroaches.)

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## Kimber

*This seems to be a topic of interest on sooo many reptile forums lol. We take our "babies" out for their play time together, and contrary to things that I've read, they're extremely social with one another! There is also something that my husband & I have witnessed on more than one occasion that completely took us by surprise. When we brought little Ryu home, he had been severely neglected so he was very close to starvation and extremely dehydrated and our big female would curl herself around his entire body & lay her head across him as if protecting him. Maybe I'm reading into this and she was completely unaware of what she was doing but I like to think she was aware  

Also, studies show that King Cobras are significantly more intelligent than what was previously thought, even showing recognition between their caregivers & strangers. So, if they are smart enough to know people, they might actually be smart enough to feel for those people? I like to believe that ours just LOVE us! I guess whether or not that is true, we sure do love them!! Oh & there is some interesting information on this lin**k 

*http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0208071717.htm 

*"Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves"*

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## Kimber

Here is a little more cool information I found from www.snaketalk.com

"Recent studies and observations now indicate that in spite of the fact snakes have no external ears, they do have inner ear mechanisms and can "hear" airborne sound. According to Dave and Tracy Barker in their book, _BALL PYTHONS, The History, Natural History, Care, and Breeding_, (citing several studies) in addition to somatic hearing, snakes are able to detect airborne sound via their inner ears. Another accepted fact was that snakes have no emotional states and all activity is a simple autonomic response to external stimuli. A quote that I used for many years (until very recently) is, "Snakes have all the intelligence of a Styrofoam cup." I had been taught and had always believed through my own observations that snakes (and other herpetofauna) could not recognize an individual human being, but were so accustomed to human contact that they felt no threat and no defensive response was indicated. Dave and Tracy's observations with Ball pythons over the years indicate that Ball pythons can in fact recognize individuals (you should read their book to get all the details). Extrapolating from these observations leads me to believe that this ability to recognize individuals may extend to other species as well, and if recognition is possible could I have been wrong all these years regarding a snakes potential for emotional responses? That would perhaps be stretching logic to the limits of reason. I am not ready to start telling my audience that my snakes love me, and I am not encouraging anyone to throw away all their old books. Much of what we have always accepted as fact is in fact, fact. My main point here is that we must never close our mind to new possibilities; never stop learning."

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Saxy snake (07-10-2013)

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## Kimber

WOW Beautifully said!! My favorite part?...."sophomoric glee people are extracting from their feelings of supposed superiority to others"!!  :Rock on:

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## Kimber

> Food. They can identify anything warm. They can't just see you and say "hey, its my owner!!!"
> 
> I think people just like to make snakes into people and mammals. They can't get over that they basically have no feelings.


 

Recent studies have shown that King Cobras can, in fact, distinguish between their caregivers and total strangers!! So if they can, why couldn't other species?

- - - Updated - - -




> and for those of you that want to question this, seriously, define love and then tell me if snakes fit the catagories. first and fore most would be do they defend their young AFTER they lay eggs, if they are the egg laying type. crocs/alligators do i believe, but do they also feel the need to seek comfort with other members of their species? being companion, offspring, or pack member? alright then.




I know of some women that wouldn't fit into those catergories! Lmao

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## Mike41793

> Recent studies have shown that King Cobras can, in fact, distinguish between their caregivers and total strangers!! So if they can, why couldn't other species?


Cobras are smarter. I dont believe bps are smart enough to. Other species of boidae may be though. Alot of ppl who have retics say theyre pretty smart. Same with what ive heard about boas. Like there actually might be something going on in there. Hots are considered the most developed snakes, as far as evolution, so i wouldnt be surprised if they were the smartest as well.

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## Kimber

> do what now??
> i do not believe for a minute that feeling secure or emboldened or safe are a definiton of love. i have never won a debate and gone "wow, i feel empowered LOVE YES" or some other .. thing that has caused emboldenment in my own personal self. yes love is very over used- but those words, they have no relation to the word love, they can be put into a sentence with the word love- but as far as someone using the word 'secure' as a synonym for love. nope.
> 
> 
> Dictionary dot com:
> and i hope im not diminishing it..?
> _1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.  
> 2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.  
> 3. sexual passion or desire.  
> ...


*Let me first say, I'm only of average intellect, and would never want to insult ANYONE else's intelligence because they have a different opinion than mine. But I totally understand the use of the word "safe" & "secure" in correlation with the word "love", and while not exclusively synonomous, are relative. For example, if I didn't feel safe & secure with my husband, I wouldn't love him. And I'm not sure how much my children would love me if they didn't feel secure & safe with me lol. Also, a strong point could be made for #18 "to need or require; benefit greatly from: Plants love sunlight". Without a doubt, we know that plants are incapable of any feeling given that they lack a central nervous system, but here it is, used in this example.* 

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> Cobras are smarter. I dont believe bps are smart enough to. Other species of boidae may be though. Alot of ppl who have retics say theyre pretty smart. Same with what ive heard about boas. Like there actually might be something going on in there. Hots are considered the most developed snakes, as far as evolution, so i wouldnt be surprised if they were the smartest as well.



I'm not sure that they are either actually lol but I am open to any new possibility. A bumblebee shouldn't be able to fly but he can with no explanation  :Wink:

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## Kimber

That's a good point, and for that matter, what's the cause of the major "stress" that balls suffer if they have no feelings. Being moved from one home to another or loud, raucous noises shouldn't affect them at all. Isn't "stress" an emotion caused by other emotions compiling & not an instinct?

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## Kimber

> O.k look it i am not here to get into a peeing match with anyone.My female was 12 years old,my male is 10 years old,If you seperate them and then introduce them,they will breed,i have allways housed Ball Pythons together with out any negative out come,the eggs that were in her were infertile i have never seen any mating going on with either one of them,some snakes do in fact still produce eggs with out a male around,well mine happened to do just that with out mating.I have been into reptiles for 22 years +.I would like to think that i know what i am doing.And yes,Ball Pythons and Red Tails are very social with each other.Now i am not saying all snakes can be social with each other,but i know for a fact that at least mine are.Scientist dont know everything,it is experience that counts.Books do not tell all.I do not know where all of you are getting your information from,but you need to recap and do some more research.Just an opinion.Not bashing.



I totally agree with everything you've said!! My balls, while not housed together, are all pulled from their enclosures at a certain time for "play" & there's no way to keep them seperated  :Smile:   They've shown no aggression towards each other from any of the encounters, nor do they get "stressed", go off feed, etc. So while they may not be social in terms of other animal standards, they certainly like to cuddle together! I am so sorry that you lost one of your babies, I know how attached one can get to these creatures  :Smile:

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## sorraia

I don't think my rosy boas could care less who took care of them, fed them, handled them. They do not show any kind of emotional response. But having said that, I think they deserve a little more credit than is often given. They seem to attempt to solve (very basic) problems, and seem to show some signs of some form of curiosity. When I first got my rosies there was a small flaw that allowed them to escape their cage. They both quickly learned where this flaw was, and would go straight to it. Once it was fixed, they gave up for a time, but recently seem to be testing it out again.

Years ago when I had a ball python he showed some signs of "something more" going on behind his eyes. He always seemed to know when it was really time to eat, whether or not he was hungry at any other time. Once when I made the mistake of sticking my hand in his cage during feeding time, he bit me. He very quickly let go and hid himself in his hide as if he were ashamed of what he had done. I can't say he actually was ashamed, I may be attributing something that wasn't there, but it really did seem like something more was going on. He never bit me before or after that. 

I think in general the keepers have  more fondness for the snakes, than the snakes have for the keeper. I won't completely dismiss a possibility of something more though.

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Poseidon (01-31-2013)

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## royal constrictor

my snake loves me.... he licks my nose

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## HaikyFin

> That's a good point, and for that matter, what's the cause of the major "stress" that balls suffer if they have no feelings. Being moved from one home to another or loud, raucous noises shouldn't affect them at all. Isn't "stress" an emotion caused by other emotions compiling & not an instinct?


Stress isn't an emotion. It's actually a chemical reaction in the brain to something negative that may cause harm. Stress is uncomfortable and animals that go through stress automatically seek to relieve that stress by running away, biting, hiding, etc. It's a release of chemicals and nothing more complex than that. Humans make it more complex because we have the ability to think. A human stuck in traffic experiences the same type of stress as a zebra being chased by a lion - and there is no reason for it, it's just something humans do unnecessarily. We put emotions into it - stress itself isn't emotion and certainly wouldn't be caused by other emotions compiling. In the human world, you might stress because you're job is on the line and things are tense with your significant other but these things are stressful to you because your brain has told your body that there is some unfathomable reason to release that chemical, not because you're emotional about it.

It's very difficult to explain. Humans are very dumb while being very intelligent at the same time. As I said before - I think we feel like everything else does, but we try to rationalize and understand what we feel, so we've lost the understanding that most of it is just instinct, chemicals and functions meant to keep us alive and thriving. Nothing more. People are animals, that's all. Therefore, animals are animals - that's all. Because we think complexly and nothing else does we try so hard to find this unique gift in other creatures and the cold fact is that we're alone in our understanding and intelligence - and we simply cannot seem to accept that.

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## OsirisRa32

> Snakes don't understand emotion other than "I'm gonna eat you!!!"


Thats not an emotion!! its a biological urge  :Razz:

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## NormanSnake

I don't know about my snake loving me, but I sure do love my snake! :Smile:

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## ktint

I am not sure they like me or not. But, I love it when they ask for food. On feeding days, they look up me with their eyes and expect food even when the rats are in the freezer. They touch my hand with their tongue and look up with their expecting eyes when I put my hand in their tubs.

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## RaskaNeil

http://www.naturescornermagazine.com/snakes_learn.html

Snakes have the ability to learn and adapt to their environments (in one way or another). I believe that all animals have emotions of some kind regardless, but who is to say that snakes can't learn to love or at least recognize a person to a higher degree. My Ball Python, Trouser, knows who i am and always comes to greet (not anyone else mind you) ever time I come home. 

I'm not the only one who feeds him either, so it isn't just he recognizes i feed him.

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Poseidon (01-31-2013)

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## BoostedMX3

> Stress isn't an emotion. It's actually a chemical reaction in the brain to something negative that may cause harm. Stress is uncomfortable and animals that go through stress automatically seek to relieve that stress by running away, biting, hiding, etc. It's a release of chemicals and nothing more complex than that. Humans make it more complex because we have the ability to think. A human stuck in traffic experiences the same type of stress as a zebra being chased by a lion - and there is no reason for it, it's just something humans do unnecessarily. We put emotions into it - stress itself isn't emotion and certainly wouldn't be caused by other emotions compiling. In the human world, you might stress because you're job is on the line and things are tense with your significant other but these things are stressful to you because your brain has told your body that there is some unfathomable reason to release that chemical, not because you're emotional about it.
> 
> It's very difficult to explain. Humans are very dumb while being very intelligent at the same time. As I said before - I think we feel like everything else does, but we try to rationalize and understand what we feel, so we've lost the understanding that most of it is just instinct, chemicals and functions meant to keep us alive and thriving. Nothing more. People are animals, that's all. Therefore, animals are animals - that's all. Because we think complexly and nothing else does we try so hard to find this unique gift in other creatures and the cold fact is that we're alone in our understanding and intelligence - and we simply cannot seem to accept that.



Just cuz the snakes don't speak don't assume that they don't try to rationalize certain things like humans do.. Untill someone around here learns how to speak snake u can't say for sure one way or another as far as how they feel or think.. Just my opinion...


Also it has been proven in humans that are emotions are chemicals reactions in our brain.. Depression anxiety stress love it's all basically chemichals

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## OsirisRa32

> Stress isn't an emotion. It's actually a chemical reaction in the brain to something negative that may cause harm. Stress is uncomfortable and animals that go through stress automatically seek to relieve that stress by running away, biting, hiding, etc. It's a release of chemicals and nothing more complex than that. Humans make it more complex because we have the ability to think. A human stuck in traffic experiences the same type of stress as a zebra being chased by a lion - and there is no reason for it, it's just something humans do unnecessarily. We put emotions into it - stress itself isn't emotion and certainly wouldn't be caused by other emotions compiling. In the human world, you might stress because you're job is on the line and things are tense with your significant other but these things are stressful to you because your brain has told your body that there is some unfathomable reason to release that chemical, not because you're emotional about it.
> 
> It's very difficult to explain. Humans are very dumb while being very intelligent at the same time. As I said before - I think we feel like everything else does, but we try to rationalize and understand what we feel, so we've lost the understanding that most of it is just instinct, chemicals and functions meant to keep us alive and thriving. Nothing more. People are animals, that's all. Therefore, animals are animals - that's all. Because we think complexly and nothing else does we try so hard to find this unique gift in other creatures and the cold fact is that we're alone in our understanding and intelligence - and we simply cannot seem to accept that.


With that logic no emotions are actually emotions b/c all emotional responses can be boiled down to chemical response and reactions in bio-neuro pathways and interactions of enzymes, bio chemicals and cells/brain regions.

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## satomi325

> Just cuz the snakes don't speak don't assume that they don't try to rationalize certain things like humans do.. Untill someone around here learns how to speak snake u can't say for sure one way or another as far as how they feel or think.. Just my opinion...
> 
>  has been proven in humans that are emotions are chemicals reactions in our brain.. Depression anxiety stress love it's a basically chemichals


I speak Parseltongue fluently in all 3 dialects. 


But being serious here.
Snakes don't have the same brain as humans. They're missing the part that processes emotion. They're instinctual creatures who can be conditioned and learn to recognize certain things, such as predator, prey, good, bad, neutral. Very simple and raw thoughts.

And everyone here is describing 'love', which is a human emotion. And shouldn't be used in the same context with animals. An animal may feel their own version of 'love', but it isn't the same as the ones humans express. You are anthropomorphising animals, which is a no no.  :Razz: 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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## miki

Regardless of other peoples opinions, I think Ball Pythons have their own personality and grow special bonds with their owners. :Smile:

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## PigZilla50317

I think they very much "Tolerate us" as a food source and bigger foe so they act accordingly. :Very Happy:

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_gsarchie_ (01-21-2013),Poseidon (01-31-2013)

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## gsarchie

> Regardless of other peoples opinions, I think Ball Pythons have their own personality and grow special bonds with their owners.


Regardless of what you think of what has been posted, the facts are just that - _facts._  You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

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RobbiesCornField (02-22-2013)

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## Martin_Jr

LMAO!!


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## Huntz362

Not that I'm saying I think my snake "loves" me, but I do know he tolerates me. And those of you that keep saying "facts are facts". How many times have "facts" turned out to be false in history? For instance... Doctors used to think that it was a "fact" that cigarettes were okay for you, obviously that's a big negative.

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_alykoz_ (06-23-2013)

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## Rob

> And those of you that keep saying "facts are facts". How many times have "facts" turned out to be false in history? For instance.


Good point, in primitive times "gods" were responsible for all kinds of things we know now not to be true.

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## Rob

...... I forgot slim isn't here to back me up on this  :Sad:

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## ironpython

I don't know about yalls snakes but I recieved valentines cards from two of mine. So you decide  :Smile: 

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## 33rpm

Nervous as youngsters. More laid back as adults. That's all I have ever noticed.

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## enchantress62

Isn't Love relative?  I mean what is it really?  An emotion?  What drives us to love?  I don't mean to get all bogged down in heavy thought here, just saying, we don't know everything about snakes or any other creature.  Just because their biology doesn't compare to ours doesn't mean they don't feel.  Who knows what they feel.  I think it's important to decide what connection you have with your pet and go with it.  If you think your snake loves you then enjoy it.  Why not?  Hell my bp showed me more affection then some of the relationships I've been in.  lol

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_alykoz_ (06-23-2013)

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## Kodieh

Watt is love? Baby don't Hertz me, don't Hertz me. No Morse. 

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_Archimedes_ (04-19-2013),_Ginevive_ (04-29-2013),_Mike41793_ (04-19-2013),Saxy snake (06-28-2013)

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## Herpenthusiast3

If someone personifies there BP let them. A gentle disposition while being handled can be perceived as affection from the owner and that shouldn't be a problem. I believe that every keeper should try to understand the mentality of there snakes whether it be dictated by species or an individual within a species. I think we can all agree that some snakes have good attitudes and some have absolutely bad attitudes and tendencies.  Personally I don't feel any snakes are apt to affectionate behavior but he may have a snake with a good disposition, that doesn't mind being held and likes to be close to said keeper for warmth. Let him perceive it as whatever he wants. Perceptions not reality but if personifying said pet snake enriches the keepers hobby why not? Someone made millions of dollars off of the pet rock idea for F&@! Sake.  :Smile:

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Willie76 (04-01-2013)

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## Quinnster

My baby loves me!

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## satomi325

> The snakes have no mind. They can bite you if any irritation it's faced.  
> http://www.localvetsearch.com


Your dog at home can do the same. Spammer

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## Ginevive

Holy old thread, Batman! lol

 :Smile: )

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## Ginevive

Wasn't there a saying that went, "it's not what loves you.. it's what you love?" I love my snakes.. so, I guess that there is valid love goin' on around here. lol

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_Archimedes_ (04-19-2013)

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## Archimedes

Honestly it comes down to one's spiritual opinion on the concept of love. I know my snake doesn't love me, but I know he is more receptive to me than he is to other people because he recognizes my scent and associates it with gentle handling and protection. If I hand him off to a friend, he is much more cautious and reserved. He trusts me not to hurt him and knows my handling technique. Is that love? Sure, if that's the word you use to describe such connections. 

Spirituality and semantics.

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_alykoz_ (06-23-2013)

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## alykoz

for the people who automatically shut off the idea, you will never experience it because you have already shut the idea out of your mind. facts aren't facts and the only thing I know, is that I know nothing (Aristotle). don't jump to conclusions based on your human perception. open your minds.

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## Kodieh

08/23/2006

Lets move on. 

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_Annarose15_ (06-23-2013),_Anya_ (06-24-2013),_Archimedes_ (06-23-2013)

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## Kaorte

> 08/23/2006
> 
> Lets move on. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2


Its been steadily ongoing since then... Why so insistant to kill a thread that doesn't need to be killed?

I think this is a good conversation..

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_alykoz_ (06-25-2013)

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## CaitJaye

So, ok, my snake may not love me in the sense that my cat would love me. But I think there is an understanding that he may have. He knows I don't want to hurt him; he doesn't try to escape when I handle him, he doesn't hiss or bite, and he curls up and falls asleep often when hes laying on my stomach or against my ribs. Maybe it's just conditioning and lots of time being handled, but he does't react aggressively towards people. Like I said, it may not be love or any special attachment, but I think that for an essentially wild animal he shows a lot of tolerance for human interaction. Besides, I adore him so I delude myself into thinking he feels the same.  :Wink:

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_AlexisFitzy_ (09-23-2013)

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## Carl

I found this intersting. IMO snakes dont feel love or anything like that. However I know for a fact that snakes tend to be "comfortable" around us. Its about building trust. Today for instance I went to go handle one of my balls. All I had to do was open the enclosure and he came right out, slithered up my stomach and into my arms. This has only happened 2 times before and I thought it was really something. Now this happened infront of my gf and she thought that the snake "loved" me. They feel physical pain and they operate strictly on instinct. We are the ones that feel affection for them but not vise versa.

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TurkeyPython (02-20-2014)

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## Bluebonnet Herp

Although I think snakes are definitely independent by nature, there's no way we will ever know they have emotions simply because they lack the muscle and tissue to express them, aside from biting and hissing, of course.
However, I definitely believe even the ball python will learn to recognize people.
For two weeks, my yearling ball didn't eat. I thought it was due to fasting. My second and smaller ball python wasn't as enthusiastic as she usually was either, didn't strike her food at all, and didn't eat until later in the day (or rather, the night) when the (dead)rat was just dumped in the terrarium. I've never had this happen before, however, during these two feedings, my sister and and my cat were in my room. The second week, my larger ball python seemed real interested too, and started off with her hungry python mode, although she failed to grab the rat, lost interest and went back to hiding. This week, I decided to focus on getting them to eat- alone. I don't have much to say, other than both of them became the aggressive eaters I know them to be. Time of day was irrelevant too, because during this third attempt, it was day-time and both pythons managed to, quite enthusiastically, successfully grab and eat the rats they were offered. 
I'm quite confident in saying that most, if not all reptiles will at least learn to recognize and trust individual people.

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Awaiting Abyss (02-23-2014)

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## Elmodfz

Reptiles do seem to know who their main carer is and will usually head for them if given the option between a few people. My bf keeps boas and all of his ones go straight to him, even if I'm holding them, but the newer ones we got are happier being with me for longer but will still end up smelling him out and heading that way too. It's surprisingly hurtful to be rejected by snakes lol.

As much as I say "oh my snake loves me because [insert reason here]" I do know that they have limited brain capacity and the area of the brain capable of emotion isn't developed in them like in mammals/birds. But it is nice to feel wanted by your pets lol. I think it's just human nature to want to be loved by the lives we take care of on a daily basis.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (09-23-2013),Awaiting Abyss (02-23-2014),ball*pythons (11-11-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-05-2014),cassidyy327 (11-12-2013)

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## satomi325

> there's no way we will ever know they have emotions simply because they lack the muscle and tissue to express them, aside from biting and hissing, of course.


They actually lack the part of the brain that processes and deals with emotion. So that's a pretty good indicator that they are not emotional. They are rather primitive in which they are very instinctual simple creatures.


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## ball*pythons

I like to think my snake loves me but put it this way: he defiantly knows his Mommy (me), everyone tells me that. But that's him smelling.... but when he had a RI he knew who gave him his injections (not me- Brrr I hate needles!) and would try and avoid them if they came in the room when I was holding him etc... He defiantly remembers stuff and whether someone is good with snake/panics whatever. But now I'm rambling so yeah!!

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## cassidyy327

I wish my snake loved me... how cute would it be to see your babies all excited when you handle them!!

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-13-2013)

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## vangarret2000

> So, ok, my snake may not love me in the sense that my cat would love me. But I think there is an understanding that he may have. He knows I don't want to hurt him; he doesn't try to escape when I handle him, he doesn't hiss or bite, and he curls up and falls asleep often when hes laying on my stomach or against my ribs. Maybe it's just conditioning and lots of time being handled, but he does't react aggressively towards people. Like I said, it may not be love or any special attachment, but I think that for an essentially wild animal he shows a lot of tolerance for human interaction. Besides, I adore him so I delude myself into thinking he feels the same.


When you say he knows you don't want to hurt him how do you gauge that when you can't tell what it is thinking or feeling? Just because something doesn't attack doesn't mean it feels safe. 

He never never tries to move away from you while holding it? That would be hard to believe. It moving away from your direction could be taken as it trying to escape. 

How do you know he is asleep in your lap? Snakes might not move hen they are asleep or awake. I always wonder how people know when thy are sleeping because I see many a times people mention they know the snake is asleep.

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## vangarret2000

> They actually lack the part of the brain that processes and deals with emotion. So that's a pretty good indicator that they are not emotional. They are rather primitive in which they are very instinctual simple creatures.
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I rather agree with this as I have heard it before. They act from instinct not feelings. But do you have proof of this? I have jut heard people say it and it sounds more realistic but in have never seen actual proof/studies of it.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (02-23-2014)

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## Bluebonnet Herp

Considering how we're just recently discovering actual intelligence in snakes' fellow squamates, I actually found this video mildly interesting:



I honestly don't like the poll options- I'm willing to bet the answer is somewhere in between. Much like how animals that are naturally and typically antisocial will somehow still recognize their human caretakers- such as hedgehogs, servals, short tailed opossums and blue tongue skinks.
Its also funny how the more snakes that someone has (and therefor the less time they have to observe one particular specimen) the more inclined they are to say they're no more intelligent than a _tarantula_. Whereas someone who actually spends some time with their snakes, they tend to pick up on all their little quirks. And the snake has more time to "get to know them" too. Anyone ever consider that?

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_AlexisFitzy_ (03-05-2014)

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## cheaversg

The problem that I see is people just living a fact driven life instead of making your own hypothesis running your own experiment and forming your own conclusion. and theres also an article on here that I think everyone should go and read thats showing that there trying to see if reptiles in genereal have more intelligence than everyone thought. I dont like people who live by just "fact" that requires no abstract thought or imagination. So my conclusion from me being with my snake is I know my snake loves me. It wont act with my roomates or anyone else (who doesnt take care of it) like it acts with me. My snake got use to what I do with it. When I take it out I always put it in a hat or my pocket and when I first got it it didnt want to go in cause obviously it was scared but now it knows if I go into this hat hes gunna put me in his hoodie pocket and its going to be really warm. When i clean her enclosure and put her on the floor and im walking back and forth to the sink, it watches me walk back and forth and if im out of the room itll start slithering out and when im walking back in you can see her following me with her eyes tongue out tasting the air happy as can be and she turns around and comes back in the room. 

Heres my last point if it recognizes my smell it recognizes me because I am my smell. And a snake can feel a kiss from vibrations, In the wild in can feel vibrations from a hawk flapping its wings to come eat it.

So my conclusion from my Hypothesis and living the experiment is my snake loves me and its ignorance and being a sheep to not think abstractly or even give it a thought that they might.


Edit: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ht=coldblooded

Thats the article regardless of your OPINION everyone should read.

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StaticLowLife (03-05-2014)

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## StaticLowLife

wow what a read, very interesting. what i will say is that i believe my snake recognizes me, she's been handled very consistently, 1-2 hours every night for as long as i had her, with the exception of after she eats or when she is shedding. but ill say this. i get the feeling she likes to be handled. it seams she knows as soon as her light clicks off and she hears the clips of her top coming off she slithers right to the top. i usually put my arm in she will get her whole body on my arm and sit motionless until i take her out. so do i think she "loves" Me. probably not lol, does she recognize me? i believe so. does she enjoy being handled and exploring? yes. my .02

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## bcr229

> wow what a read, very interesting. what i will say is that i believe my snake recognizes me, she's been handled very consistently, 1-2 hours every night for as long as i had her, with the exception of after she eats or when she is shedding. but ill say this. i get the feeling she likes to be handled. it seams she knows as soon as her light clicks off and she hears the clips of her top coming off she slithers right to the top. i usually put my arm in she will get her whole body on my arm and sit motionless until i take her out. so do i think she "loves" Me. probably not lol, does she recognize me? i believe so. does she enjoy being handled and exploring? yes. my .02


While mine recognize me, I think they only love me when I show up with rats.  :Wink:

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_Shann_ (03-05-2014)

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## StaticLowLife

> While mine recognize me, I think they only love me when I show up with rats.



LOL heard that!

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## cheaversg

For me if my snake likes me more than its likes you it may not love me in the traditional sense of the word but it loves me as in you dont wanna stick your hand in the tank when shes in shed and me i get away with it.

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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-05-2014)

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## MonkeyShuttle

Three things
1. I read this title and even the person who generated it explained as a poll/thread for your opinion which after reading turned into people bashing other peoples opinion with FACTS.  (Can anyone link a thread from this site with at least 25 post where you can voice your opinion and the savior of the fact galaxy doesn't come out swinging) lol.
2. "Its a fact that snakes cant feel emotion cause science has proven it" im pretty sure that science as a way of explanation isnt a new concept and was someones argument in the whole "the earth is flat debate" back in the day.
3. I dont think my snakes love me cause there mostly babies and to me seem to still be figuring things out but anything is possible.



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## kilopular

> Three things
> 1. I read this title and even the person who generated it explained as a poll/thread for your opinion which after reading turned into people bashing other peoples opinion with FACTS.  (Can anyone link a thread from this site with at least 25 post where you can voice your opinion and the savior of the fact galaxy doesn't come out swinging) lol.
> 2. "Its a fact that snakes cant feel emotion cause science has proven it" im pretty sure that science as a way of explanation isnt a new concept and was someones argument in the whole "the earth is flat debate" back in the day.
> 3. I dont think my snakes love me cause there mostly babies and to me seem to still be figuring things out but anything is possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I feel you. I love my snakes and want to gush about them like they're my children but I'm too scared of getting the people who are strictly for breeding, serious, or science-factoids responding or thinking less of me for it. Because apparently owning snakes is all work and no play and you're not allowed to have them as pets or therapy (in my case). That's my derail tidbit

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_AlexisFitzy_ (03-05-2014)

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## HVani

I don't mind people loving their snakes.  I adore my snakes and I find them very relaxing.  We have a mutual respect and understanding.  I would even go so far as to say we have a relationship.  My scalies recognize me and seem to prefer me.  However, I don't believe they feel love for me.  They are not devoid of all feelings, I just think love is too complex for these simple creatures.

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StaticLowLife (03-05-2014)

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## StaticLowLife

> I don't mind people loving their snakes.  I adore my snakes and I find them very relaxing.  We have a mutual respect and understanding.  I would even go so far as to say we have a relationship.  My scalies recognize me and seem to prefer me.  However, I don't believe they feel love for me.  They are not devoid of all feelings, I just think love is too complex for these simple creatures.



well put sir. repzzz

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## Slim

I _LOVE_ how this thread gets another go-around about every 6 months...

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## piedpython

I feel like my snake knows a persons scent and if their a threat or not. My pied comes right onto my hand when I lift up his hide and pet his back. My girlfriend tries to do the same and he ALWAYS balls up or hisses. Even past snakes I owned always squirmed in others hands or just looked uncomfortable.

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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (03-05-2014),Painted (06-23-2014)

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## cheaversg

> I don't mind people loving their snakes.  I adore my snakes and I find them very relaxing.  We have a mutual respect and understanding.  I would even go so far as to say we have a relationship.  My scalies recognize me and seem to prefer me.  However, I don't believe they feel love for me.  They are not devoid of all feelings, I just think love is too complex for these simple creatures.


I can agree with that love is really complex hahaha most humans dont even or barely understand it

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## Seemingly_Harmless

It is a proven fact snakes do not have the ability to love. That part of their brain does not exist.. *HOWEVER* - Snakes do have the ability to LIKE. And I'm sure there is a level to how much they can like something or someone. My snake shows signs of comfortableness around me and acts in a fun and friendly matter with me. My BP Cornelius shows great fondness towards me, and that's enough for me!

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## MonkeyShuttle

Everytime i hear facts and brain in the same sentence i see a preview for a tv show  "have scientist finally found the secret to unlocking one of the worlds greatest mysteries... Tune in next week when scientist explore the mysteries of the brain"  lol.  How many facts have changed over the years 


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## Bluebonnet Herp

> It is a proven fact snakes do not have the ability to love. That part of their brain does not exist.. *HOWEVER* - Snakes do have the ability to LIKE. And I'm sure there is a level to how much they can like something or someone. My snake shows signs of comfortableness around me and acts in a fun and friendly matter with me. My BP Cornelius shows great fondness towards me, and that's enough for me!


This makes sense- you don't particularly need oxytocin interacting with the brain to find comfort or enjoyment in something.

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Seemingly_Harmless (03-08-2014)

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## Seemingly_Harmless

> This makes sense- you don't particularly need oxytocin interacting with the brain to find comfort or enjoyment in something.


Exactly. Which is why I believe that even though my snake most-likely doesn't love me, that he _is_ fond of me.

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## CptJack

I don't think my snakes love me.  I do think my snakes recognize me, perceive me as being of no threat and associate my presence with things like rodents, water, and getting out of their enclosures.  They do not all appreciate me equally, but every last one of them behaves differently with me than other members of my household who handle the snakes minimally and never provide food/water/take them out.    They're simple animals, yeah, but they are animals and are very definitely capable of learning and forming associations. If they've got a positive association with my presence (and getting things) then it's good enough for me.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (05-21-2014),_Archimedes_ (06-04-2014),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (08-01-2014),calmolly1 (11-27-2014)

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## kitkatbird

If you define love the same way a plant loves sunlight and good soil then I absolutely think my snake loves me  :Wink:

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## Spike89

I wouldn't say she loves me as much as say she loves attention. However my RTB doesn't like to roam around when I get her out. She comes right back to you.

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## manuuman

I don't know if snakes can love, but I only have to spend 5 minutes with my jcp to know beyond all doubt that they can hate!

As for salmonella, all egg laying species carry it.  It's just used as a  reptile bogeyman.  People let their parrots kiss them all the time  without worrying that they may end up with salmonella.  

Sure, you could catch salmonella from handling a snake.  Or eating an  egg mcmuffin.  Or eating raw cookie dough.  When I consider the risks I  take on a daily basis just by getting behind the wheel of my car, it  makes me rather unconcerned about the risks of letting my snakes hide in  my beard.

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## theodore

:Very Happy:  My Kingsnake shows that he loves me by chomping down on my finger and not letting go!!!  :Sarcasm Alert:   :Very Happy: 

T

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KodiakFox (10-05-2015)

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## SerpentSteve

I apologize if this has already been said because I haven't read this entire thread, but based on this definition alone all animals that participate in sexual reproduction via internal fertilization, and must perform intercourse, experience "love."

"Dictionary dot com:
and i hope im not diminishing it..?
_1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person. 
2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend. 
3. sexual passion or desire. 
4. a person toward whom love is felt; beloved person; sweetheart. 
5. (used in direct address as a term of endearment, affection, or the like): Would you like to see a movie, love? 
6. a love affair; an intensely amorous incident; amour. 
7. sexual intercourse; copulation._ "

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## Kamerick

Although I would like to think my ball python loves me, as far as I know, they are incapable of feeling complex emotions such as love. They only really understand "FOOD!" Or "ENEMY! HIDE!" Or maybe sleepy. Whenever I have my BP out, he always looked for the darkest place he can find withing his sight range. But I will not tell people that their opinions are wrong on something that is not really that important.

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## Sirensong26

Whenever I have him around my neck and he starts to get really comfortable, and tightens a little, I always go "Sweetheart mommy can't breathe" and he loosens up. While I have a hunch that this has more to do with the movement of my voicebox than any compassion my baby feels for me.....it's still nice to think that he's just trying to hug me :Razz:

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_AlexisFitzy_ (11-27-2014)

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## samthemanz3n

they're not smart enough to love or hate someone.  If they get fed every time they smell you then they will correlate your presence with the satisfaction of eating.  If you hang out with a snake and chill it will learn that your not a predator and become more relaxed around you.  It's gonna correlate instincts with feelings not emotions. :Cool:

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## Rob

Yeah well I think my gtp hates me. Little turd tagged me about 6 times today.....even when little they have some pop to them.

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tj4x4fun (01-09-2015)

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## Bluebonnet Herp

After my recent experience getting into boas and observing mine's behavior, even I was a little taken aback as it seems she recognizes and trusts me. She'll hiss if perturbed/woken up and will continue hissing if someone else is bothering her, but she'll behave as soon as she smells my hand with her tongue. No signs of affection, sure, but it's all too obvious this reptile can learn to recognize certain individuals, and either associate them with safety and trust, or learn to hate them as they are a recognized threat.
And the fact that my snakes may at least trust me is good enough for me.  :Good Job: 

P.S. Also, the parts they have in their brain relative to mammals is irrelevant. Animals like parrots do not have the same brain anatomy as mammals do, but their brains can preform the exact same cognitive tasks that the mammals will do, if not better, only the brain activity will actually occur in an entirely different region of the brain. Same task, different region. Recent scientific studies are also finding this is very well holding true with reptiles. And bear in mind the fact that varanids, iguanids, and agamids are some of the smartest families of lizards, they're also the closest relatives of the snakes. 
Needless to say, I think it would be inaccurate to assume that reptiles are the dull logs they seemed to be some 20 years ago. They're more than just instinctual, biological machines.

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bluellies (01-21-2015),LostWingsInTime (01-10-2015),_The Golem_ (01-10-2015)

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## goddessbaby

I think this is quite an interesting thread and I read about 30 pages before I'm putting my opinion out there.

I agree with people who have stated that we have to acknowledge that every species has its own "emotions" no matter how low on the food chain or how basic it's dna, what we each perceive as love is how we would answer this question. Do I believe a snake would get heart eyes and be affectionate towards me? No. Do I believe that a life form can look to you for protection and nurturing? Yes. 

Science can tell us that something is impossible but it can still happen. I feel like the whole "snakes don't have emotions" is kind of a popular opinion that everyone just regurgitates. If there we no emotions or something like it pertaining to these animals, logic says they would all behave exactly the same to every stimulus. I believe the very fact that every snake has its own "personality" shows they have a small, if different from ours, capacity for emotion.

Just my opinion, meaning this is how I think without trying to persuade anyone to feel the same.

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maudie (07-06-2015)

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## nightrainfalls

So I guess it doesn't really matter whether they love me.  I love it when my python Delphi crawls up the buttons on my shirt and flicks my nose with her tongue, before settling down in folds of the fabric with just her head sticking out. Delphi doesn't need to do that, but she often does. It seems like a ritual.  Perhaps it is a  primitive sort of greeting, or perhaps it is just routine behavior that I have attached to much meaning to.  I love when my boa crawls out of is cage and onto my hand.  Maybe he is just looking for warmth, but then again his cage has many warm places, and he chooses to come out and sit with me in a room where the temperature and humidity are not in his range.  Yet still he actively comes out of his cage and wraps round my arm.  Is this a rudimentary friendship or is the animal just interested in a novel experience?  How would anyone tell?

Most importantly who really cares?

We keep snakes because we love them, not because they might love us.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (01-27-2015),anicatgirl (01-27-2015),dr del (01-25-2015),goddessbaby (01-21-2015),maudie (07-06-2015)

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## anicatgirl

Sooo I'm going to have to go against the grain and say that snakes can feel something for us. Just because they lack the expressive faces of cats or dogs, does not exclude them from affection. My BP and I have different routines for when we're going to be feeding or handling. She responds to my voice when I signal a handling time and comes out of her hide to greet me. I love my Tiny Snake..... :Razz:

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## Felidae

I have a male, who don't start locking with females, just if I'm near the tub. The same male few times started to fight with me, like I'm an other male, and few times tried to lock with my hand. 

I think he accept me in a bit strange way...

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## ZacharyPoller

I have 1 snake that you can tell wants my company all my BPs are mindless but my bigger breeds seem to have more wits, my two boas are weirdos lol, but my retic god almighty this male retic has emotions I knkw it is not possible but he Is curious when I am in the room wants to be out never bit me once, but if a rat is in his cage he goes crazy, he just might be smart enough not to bite my hand bc it isn't a rat and that's enough brains for me

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## gameonpython

> I have a male, who don't start locking with females, just if I'm near the tub. The same male few times started to fight with me, like I'm an other male, and few times tried to lock with my hand. 
> 
> I think he accept me in a bit strange way...


That is absolutely hilarious! 


I've always found it strange that people say reptiles don't have emotions. They can feel fear, anger, and some highly intelligent lizards even get lonely and will hold a grudge. If they can feel this, why wouldn't they be able to feel joy, pleasure or even love? 

Marshall will raise his head up and wait for a chin scratch. He enjoys licking my face as well. One thing I noticed is when my dad went to pet his head, marshall instantly pulled his head back. But when I attempted to pet his head, he seemed very content. 


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## Felidae

Believe me, he do that without any emotions. He's just... a lovely freak. 
I disinfect my hands between touching every tub or cage, but I think his senses just better then my other snakes senses.
About the locking, I think he need a little competition to get interested about the girls. Someone use plugs, someone sheds. Me, well... my presence.

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## Sauzo

My normal BCI girl seems to love to come out and sit on me or she will sit outside her cage next to me when im working on the computer. I swear she likes the company.

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## xyzpdq75

I feel like i can be unbiased as i haven't had a snake before, I've got a question for this thread lol.

do any of your snakes tolerate or even seem to want to be out around you, but when a approached by another (Experienced handler, not talking about toddlers or anything) gets defensive, hides, or even strikes at them if they try to pick them up?

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## gameonpython

> I feel like i can be unbiased as i haven't had a snake before, I've got a question for this thread lol.
> 
> do any of your snakes tolerate or even seem to want to be out around you, but when a approached by another (Experienced handler, not talking about toddlers or anything) gets defensive, hides, or even strikes at them if they try to pick them up?


Yes!


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## influence

> I feel like i can be unbiased as i haven't had a snake before, I've got a question for this thread lol.
> 
> do any of your snakes tolerate or even seem to want to be out around you, but when a approached by another (Experienced handler, not talking about toddlers or anything) gets defensive, hides, or even strikes at them if they try to pick them up?


Absolutely.

I do all the cleaning, feeding, regular husbandry monitoring, and they seem nice and cute with me.
But when my fiancee handles them (especially my male burms), then they get all cuddly! like going to her face and "kiss" her, even wrap themselves around her arm and neck and just chill there while she goes around the house and does her stuff  :Embarassed:  at some point they even went over her shoulder and stayed there kinda like giving my fiancee a hug (without hands of course).
but with me, none of those things ever happened, closest i got is felling asleep in front of the TV with my male burm cuddled on my face. and that's it.
I swear they're kinda attracted to different personalities of human being. (or just me being jealous).
with that being said, my fiancee was the one who wanted to rescue those 2 burms from a pet shop which keeps them in poor husbandry (mites, minor scale rot, etc).
I think they're just being grateful to my fiancee, while my fiancee calls me the "janitor" and that i stink of snake poop, that's why they don't really bond to me.. haha!

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## squatsnstilettos

I know my BP loves me. Part of it is my maternal instincts. You know when someone (animal or human) is projecting love. 

Secondly, my Seshat is incredibly affectionate and adores being held. She bursts to life. When she is on me she constantly kissing me, either on the cheek, ears (she loves my ears for some reason), neck and many many times she comes to my lips for kisses. We also play peebaboo blankie on my bed so she can "stretch her legs". I keep my face level with the bed and she will come and kiss me on the lips. 

I believe all animals are capable of feeling love, affection, fear and sadness and can form a bond with humans.

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maudie (07-06-2015)

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## gameonpython

> I know my BP loves me. Part of it is my maternal instincts. You know when someone (animal or human) is projecting love. 
> 
> Secondly, my Seshat is incredibly affectionate and adores being held. She bursts to life. When she is on me she constantly kissing me, either on the cheek, ears (she loves my ears for some reason), neck and many many times she comes to my lips for kisses. We also play peebaboo blankie on my bed so she can "stretch her legs". I keep my face level with the bed and she will come and kiss me on the lips. 
> 
> I believe all animals are capable of feeling love, affection, fear and sadness and can form a bond with humans.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but when they lick(kiss) you, that is how they smell things. I wouldn't necessarily say that is a love response, but more of a curiosity and being comfortable with you. Still a good thing! But hey, I'm still a bit of a newbie so don't take my word for it lol I'm just going off what other (experienced) peeps have said on here. Sounds like a sweet snake, reminds me of my own who also gives many "kisses." 


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## maudie

if you feel that snakes are so awful and stupid maybe you don't have any business on this site let alone owning any snakes. lol. breeders that think like you produce messed up snakes, and that's what truly is sad. if people feel as though their snake loves them, then that's great for them. because the people that have that mindset are the people that are giving their snakes the BEST care.

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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (05-17-2015)

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## maudie

yeah my snakes love me. case closed.

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## Bluebonnet Herp

> I feel like i can be unbiased as i haven't had a snake before, I've got a question for this thread lol.
> 
> do any of your snakes tolerate or even seem to want to be out around you, but when a approached by another (Experienced handler, not talking about toddlers or anything) gets defensive, hides, or even strikes at them if they try to pick them up?


Yes! I've been told that even when I let another person hold my friendliest one, she always made her way towards me. My boa will hiss at anyone or anything she's unfamiliar with if they bother her in her enclosure, but she calms down as soon as she recognizes me. My other two are just hateful little hermits though. 
I wouldn't say they are affectionate or that they bond with people, but mine do learn to recognize, trust, and tolerate me and that's good enough for me.

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## nightrainfalls

they have very few ways to communicate their internal world with the external world.  We have very little insight into the snake's internal world, because our biology is so much different from theirs.  Unfortunately snakes are a black box, that we cannot pear into.  Those people who say that snakes are the reptile equivalent of feeding robots with no emotions, do not have any evidence to back this assertion up.  On the other hand, those of us who claim that snakes do have emotions and bond with us may be misinterpreting the very few clues snakes can give us.  

I offer the following as evidence.  Those who have kept many snakes of many different species will notice that individual snakes seem to have personalities.  Some are inquisitive and other secretive.  Some are adventurous and others stay in their cage even if the door is open.  Some snakes will leave perfect husbandry conditions and venture out into an environment that is not correct for them, and spend time with the humans who share their homes. 

Anyone who has ever dealt with a Retic knows that they have favorite people.  The can be very picky about who they tolerate, who they like and who they hate.  I have heard a Retic make awful growling sounds when a disliked lab attendant walked by his cage, but he scarcely made a sound or movement when I walked by.  I could reach in and clean the cage whenever, but if Tina put her arm in she was going to get tagged.  She hated the snake, and he hated her.

My BCI loves to explore.  If I leave the lid off of his cage, he will be out in a few minutes.  He frequently sits with me when I am on the computer.  He has an entire room, but he stays near me.  Usually on the desk, or curled around the back of the wooden chair next to me.  My Balls Python will never leave her cage by choice.  My BRB is kind of in the middle.  My Corn snake is a ball of energy for a snake.  She has a strange habit of hanging upside down frown the lid of her cage.  There is no real reason for her to do this.  I have never seen another snake do this, but apparently she enjoys being upside down.  She may spend twenty or thirty minutes in this position before returning to her hiding spot.

With all the variety of behaviors and temperaments, I think there must be something going on in the heads of these cryptic animals.  I do not believe that they are simply robots that eat and breathe and poop following some ancient program.  Of course I cannot know if they experience love the way we do, probably not, but I am sure they have a far more complicated mental life than many people give them credit for.

As an aside,  decades ago when I was being trained as a Biologist, I learned that sharks were robotic eating machines of the deep.  Now research seems to indicate that they are mentally sophisticated, curious, trainable, and even intelligent.  These animals are far more ancient than snakes, and the anatomy of their brains relatively simple.  The more I spend time with the animals of the world, the more I suspect that the scientific tendency to deny the emotional lives of animals is wrong.

I suspect that even ancient lineages with anatomically simple brains, are far more sophisticated than we give them credit for.

David

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_Alicia_ (05-23-2015),anicatgirl (05-18-2015),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (05-18-2015),inconspicuous (01-16-2016),_Kira_ (01-20-2017),KodiakFox (10-05-2015),M.P.C (08-05-2015),_nightwolfsnow_ (09-10-2015),_redshepherd_ (08-05-2015),_The Golem_ (05-24-2015)

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## highqualityballz

IMO i personally believe a snake and its owner can bond and the snake can grow to love you.

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## anicatgirl

Heh, I got a new story for this. My little girl is in blue. She has never been grumpy while in blue, so I hold her for a bit and we watch Youtube snake videos  :Very Happy:  Last night we were doing this usual, and she had wrapped around my hands and was apparently asleep. I stroked her side and she woke up, turned my way, touched her nose to mine, gave a few tongue flicks, turned back around, and went back to sleep. I know it was probably wondering what touched her, but seemed like "Mom, are you still there? Oh, OK, good...  zzzzzzzzzzz"

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_AlexisFitzy_ (12-01-2015),lizzy_troy (05-21-2015),_The Golem_ (05-24-2015)

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## lizzy_troy

> heh, i got a new story for this. My little girl is in blue. She has never been grumpy while in blue, so i hold her for a bit and we watch youtube snake videos :d last night we were doing this usual, and she had wrapped around my hands and was apparently asleep. I stroked her side and she woke up, turned my way, touched her nose to mine, gave a few tongue flicks, turned back around, and went back to sleep. I know it was probably wondering what touched her, but seemed like "mom, are you still there? Oh, ok, good...  Zzzzzzzzzzz"


Love!  :Very Happy:

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_AlexisFitzy_ (12-01-2015),anicatgirl (05-22-2015)

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## midgard

I don't think a snake will love you. But you can bond and it will see you as a food source. They just don't love us back like we love them. They go by instinct. Loving is not an insyinct for them.

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lizzy_troy (05-22-2015)

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## Jhill001

Ah, the great non-debate.

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## CourtneyG01

My mother rescued a snake and the snake would alwayse search her out if other people were holding him he would stretch his neck out and look for her and as soon as he found her he would immediately try and get to her. 

Not sure if it was that she was the food source in his life or what it was that made him want to be near her.

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## Tash

Wow this thread has been going on forever. I couldn't say for sure if my snakes love me or are even capable of doing so. But I do know that they are comfortable and tolerant enough with me to relax and endure me showing affection to them. That's the great thing about being a human I guess, that whole unconditional love thing, am I right?

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## EL-Ziggy

You are right Task.  :Smile:

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## BWB

Yeah, I think that we require the love of something but snakes don't/can't love, they just are comfortable with you, your scent and mannerisms. I feel bad when I accidentally bump mine into something or touch them when they aren't expecting it - I'm more worried about hurting my snakes than my kids (when they were younger).

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## redshepherd

(Can't remember whether I posted here before LOL)

I appreciate that they gradually learn to feel comfortable with you/your scent/mannerisms/handling though, because they're never harmed when you're with them.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  It shows that they DO learn, and that's enough for me.

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Herpo (01-16-2016),inconspicuous (01-16-2016),Kaali (04-26-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (01-14-2016),_Prognathodon_ (03-14-2016),wonderfvl (12-04-2016)

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## blue roses

I don't believe snakes have emotions, just instincts, but saying that isn't comfort or seeking what makes us seek comfort and a stress free enviornment something all living things do. So even though snakes really have no emotions nor can they love, they do seek what makes them feel secure. I think that if lying in warm arms makes any creature feel secure its not love just the abscence of stress and the feeling of safety. So even emotionless creatures seek safety and comfort no matter where it comes from. its instinctual.

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## wibihihi

well

if we ignore fact and just for fun 
in my case i know my snake hate me
my het genetic stripe retic always more than happy to bite me, in every chances lol

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_Snoopyslim_ (03-21-2016)

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## Snoopyslim

I like to pretend that Valentine loves me...hard to say...she does try to come out if I disturb her cage at any time.  When I open the lid of her cage and stick my hand in she slithers right up on it.  She may just use me as a mode of transportation to the outside world lol She definitely doesn't hate me.  No bites or strikes as of yet but she's a social butterfly.

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## Andylee11

I think a snake can recognize a individual based on smell and vibrations .  I think they can be partial to someone based on that . I don't  however think a snake can feel any type of " love or affection " for a human .

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## blackbear123

I know this thread is super long and years old, but I just happened to stumble on it.

It seems there are a few people with a "definite" thought on either side of the argument, and many who say we just don't know enough to declare either way.

Recently, it was discovered that rattlesnakes have "friends" or individulas that they choose to spend more time with:

http://gradworks.umi.com/15/30/1530406.html

This would imply a social aspect to that particular species and perhaps even an "emotional" side.

Does anyone else have any scientific papers or know of actual research gone into the argument either way?

I'd be very interested in more scientific evidence rather than most of the antiodtal arguments provided here.

Also, I noticed quite a number of posters listing that a statment they make is a "scientific fact" without providing any sort of link to evidence. If something is indeed a fact, provide the proof! Google scholar is your friend. You can't just claim something as "fact" and expect your argument to be convincing to anyone logical without evidence of such. This goes for many arguments in life.

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Surimi (04-24-2016)

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## Surimi

I don't think snakes are capable of loving as we are, but i do believe that they are smart enough to tell the difference between human and food. Or rather a non threat and prey.

There seems to be a lot of talk about how snakes are capable of love at all, and i wouldn't be so sure to jump to that conclusion. We used to think no animals where capable of love. Maybe they don't love as we do and don't express it as we do, but we can not ignore the fact that reptiles have the same hormones that we havem which are related to that "love" feeling
Oxytocin and Vasoporessi. There are studies that suggest that these emotion hormones emerged between the lineage of Amphibians and Reptiles. 

I am not siding with anyone, but i just think it's silly to pick a side at all because in the end i think we just don't know enough to be able to say with 100% certainty that snakes are either capable of love or aren't

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_EL-Ziggy_ (12-27-2016)

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## dkatz4

i know my snake "loves" me  :Razz: ; let me elaborate.  There are primarily 2 people that handle my snake, myself and my 4 year old son.  My son is learning about gentle handling but he's still 4 and can be a bit... cavalier.  When i hand the snake to him the snake immediately retreats to me, or if he's allowing my son to handle him but the handling gets to be a little too much (mind you, all this occurs under *very* close supervision) he sort of swings his head around until he sees/smells me, and make a B-line.  I realize there is no affection as we understand it, but i do belive that he recognizes me as a source of safety and/or refuge when he's stressed and i think that's about as "loving" as a snake can really be.

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## PythonBabes

To me, I think it's really ridiculous when people think that their snake loves them. Your snake isn't a dog or even a cat, he isn't capable of loving you or showing you affection. One person once told me that her snake loves her because he flicks his tongue at her lol :ROFL:  She also told me that a snake flickering his tongue is the equivalent of  a dog wagging his tail, I laughed for days lmao

I know that to Kaa, I am merely a huge creature that brings him a yummy rat pup every week and removes his stinky poos.

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_BeelzeBall._ (05-19-2016),_HVani_ (12-08-2016),Ratikal (12-26-2016),Tash (05-19-2016)

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## BeelzeBall.

> One person once told me that her snake loves her because he flicks his tongue at her lol She also told me that a snake flickering his tongue is the equivalent of  a dog wagging his tail, I laughed for days lmao


lol

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## butterballpython

Love is one of those emotions that we all recognize, but we can't pin an exact definition on it.  Try it once when you're in a group of friends.   :Smile:   A feeling of safety in someone's presence might be counted as part of love, who knows?  Do my bps love me like my collie does?  No way, but there seems to be a connection between Brickle and me.  He sticks his head out of his hide to look at me and likes to be held.  Bubbles, on the other hand, wants nothing to do with me and likes to be left alone.

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Ratikal (12-26-2016)

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## Crowfingers

I know that my snake does not "love" anything in the human sense of the word. Is he comfortable/unafraid when held, yes. Does he willingly come out of the hide and crawl up my arm when offered, yes. Is he probably more comfortable when I remove his mess from his cage, yes. But does he have the cerebral development to love me, nope. 

Will I still use the wrong terminology when describing things he "likes", probably  :Smile:

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## mdb730

> To me, I think it's really ridiculous when people think that their snake loves them. Your snake isn't a dog or even a cat, he isn't capable of loving you or showing you affection. One person once told me that her snake loves her because he flicks his tongue at her lol She also told me that a snake flickering his tongue is the equivalent of  a dog wagging his tail, I laughed for days lmao
> 
> I know that to Kaa, I am merely a huge creature that brings him a yummy rat pup every week and removes his stinky poos.


lol this reminded me of this lady that told me that she carriers every new baby snake she buys in a sock  with her so it can get comfortable and learn to love her. I can't imagine how stressful that all is to a snake.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (09-24-2016)

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## enginee837

> Love is one of those emotions that we all recognize, but we can't pin an exact definition on it.  Try it once when you're in a group of friends.    A feeling of safety in someone's presence might be counted as part of love, who knows?  Do my bps love me like my collie does?  No way, but there seems to be a connection between Brickle and me.  He sticks his head out of his hide to look at me and likes to be held.  Bubbles, on the other hand, wants nothing to do with me and likes to be left alone.


Actually the Greeks figured it out, courtesy of Wikipedia; 

The Greek language distinguishes at least four different ways as to how the word love is used. Ancient Greek has four distinct words for love: agápe, éros, philía, and storgē. However, as with other languages, it has been historically difficult to separate the meanings of these words when used outside of their respective contexts. Nonetheless, the senses in which these words were generally used are as follows:

Agápe (ἀγάπη agápē[1]) means "love: esp. charity; the love of God for man and of man for God."[2] Agape is used in ancient texts to denote feelings for one's children and the feelings for a spouse, and it was also used to refer to a love feast.[3] Agape is used by Christians to express the unconditional love of God for his children.[4] This type of love was further explained by Thomas Aquinas as "to will the good of another."[5]
Éros (ἔρως érōs) means "love, mostly of the sexual passion."[6] The Modern Greek word "erotas" means "intimate love." Plato refined his own definition: Although eros is initially felt for a person, with contemplation it becomes an appreciation of the beauty within that person, or even becomes appreciation of beauty itself. Plato does not talk of physical attraction as a necessary part of love, hence the use of the word platonic to mean, "without physical attraction." In the Symposium, the most famous ancient work on the subject, Plato has Socrates argue that eros helps the soul recall knowledge of beauty, and contributes to an understanding of spiritual truth, the ideal "Form" of youthful beauty that leads us humans to feel erotic desire  thus suggesting that even that sensually based love aspires to the non-corporeal, spiritual plane of existence; that is, finding its truth, just like finding any truth, leads to transcendence.[7] Lovers and philosophers are all inspired to seek truth through the means of eros.
Philia (φιλία philía) means "affectionate regard, friendship," usually "between equals."[8] It is a dispassionate virtuous love, a concept developed by Aristotle.[9] In his best-known work on ethics, Nicomachean Ethics, philia is expressed variously as loyalty to friends (specifically, "brotherly love"), family, and community, and requires virtue, equality, and familiarity. Furthermore, in the same text philos denotes a general type of love, used for love between family, between friends, a desire or enjoyment of an activity, as well as between lovers.
Storge (στοργή storgē) means "love, affection" and "especially of parents and children"[10] It's the common or natural empathy, like that felt by parents for offspring.[11] Rarely used in ancient works, and then almost exclusively as a descriptor of relationships within the family. It is also known to express mere acceptance or putting up with situations, as in "loving" the tyrant. This is also used when referencing the love for ones country or a favorite sports team.

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Ratikal (12-26-2016)

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## Merriah

I think that people who buy snakes as a "cool thing to look at" might think that they don't have emotions like "love".  I've gotten my snakes when they were at a very young age, and they adore me.  I've owned 5, and I currently have 2.  I have trained the first 3 to be gentle and kind and they were adopted to families with a disabled or medically challenged child.  I make sure the snakes visit at least 3 times before I let them go, and I instruct the families how to care for them.  I've even gone shopping for supplies with them.
Right now I have two boys and I can't let them go.  They both love to be held, and they both go straight for my neck and my face.  My pale royal enjoys it when I kiss him on his head!  I think that all animals have emotions.
Mikey and Harvey are the perfect examples!

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## Ratikal

I think my male bp "Ra" enjoys my handling and care. I can lay my hand in his enclosure and he will come out and crawl up my arm...
My female bp "Kali-ma" could care less and doesn't explore or enjoy being out like Ra...she could care less until she gets transferred to her feeding tank. Then she turns into a monster of rat fuzzy destruction lol 
I would say yes that snakes can show some type of emotion...most animals with a heartbeat can!

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## Ratikal

Can't be much different than shoved in a tub without effective handling for years until its time to breed like a robot lol

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## Ratikal

I seriously laughed so loud at the second part...baha

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## BeelzeBall.

I know as soon as they see me they're like "sigh this guy again"....

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## cletus

I think they love it when I feed them.

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## DLena

I love my snakes, and those that enjoy my companionship and seek it out...well, they love me back. 8^)

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## Ogre

Wuv, true wuv...

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## DLena

I adore "The Princess Bride"... 
so to those who say snake emotions are INCONCEIVABLE, I say, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." (Indigo Montoya). 8^)

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_Ogre_ (12-27-2016)

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## Vipera Berus

My bp is perfectly willing to sit chill and occasionally beat me if I am too slow offering food. She almost certainly loves me as her servant.

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## Asami

I think they may have somewhat of an ability to love..?

Some snakes could have the ability to recognize the people who frequently feed and handle them...

And I think some snakes do like certain people more than others.

I guess this could be showing love?

I don't know ... i'm not a snake expert this is just my opinion...

And I don't care what people say, I refuse to accept that my snake doesn't love my back... :Razz:

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## DLena

Science gave us the "fact" that animals are dumb, until they had empirical evidence to the contrary: dogs, wolves, dolphins, whales, elephants, and now cows are quite intelligent and loving; they feel emotional pain and joy. Now the big new thing is interspecies affections: deer and dogs, chimps and kittens, lions and foxes; and unlikely animal bonds with people. When science finally gets around to really studying the intricacies of the reptilian brain, I believe scientists will discover what we already know. Some of my snakes do love me or my son. Some couldn't care less... but people, dogs, cats ...are the same way.

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## Sauzo

I know my snakes loves me. I give them sloppy tongue kisses on the face and they smile and kiss me back and give me a HUGE hug all around my head......I didn't know love could hurt so much though...... :Wink:

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_Prognathodon_ (04-07-2017)

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## DLena

Lol! You're such a dork!!!!  :Rolleyes2:

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## JodanOrNoDan

My snakes don't love me, they worship me. I am a giant and the giver of all things good. I am know by many names in the universe of the snake room.

the giver of food,
the remover of waste,
the keeper of heat, 
the holder of the liquid
mostly just sssssssssssssssssssssssss! (no upper case letters here, I am just a minor god)

All things come from me as long as the yearly offering of eggs is made. There are rumors between the racks that if the proper offering is not made, the offenders tend to disappear only to emerge again in the afterlife as apparel for said god.

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_DLena_ (04-20-2017),_Godzilla78_ (12-31-2017)

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## DLena

:Surprised:  That's disturbingly creative. :Weirdface:

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_JodanOrNoDan_ (04-19-2017)

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## JodanOrNoDan

> That's disturbingly creative.


LOL. I was bored. I was actually going for absurd. I left out the part where my worshipers must crawl on their bellies before me.

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_DLena_ (04-20-2017)

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## Jeanne

> My snakes don't love me, they worship me. I am a giant and the giver of all things good. I am know by many names in the universe of the snake room.
> 
> the giver of food,
> the remover of waste,
> the keeper of heat, 
> the holder of the liquid
> mostly just sssssssssssssssssssssssss! (no upper case letters here, I am just a minor god)
> 
> All things come from me as long as the yearly offering of eggs is made. There are rumors between the racks that if the proper offering is not made, the offenders tend to disappear only to emerge again in the afterlife as apparel for said god.


Hilarious!! Thnx for the laugh.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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_JodanOrNoDan_ (04-19-2017)

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## Jeanne

> LOL. I was bored. I was actually going for absurd. I left out the part where my worshipers must crawl on their bellies before me.


It worked!! Lol

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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## Meerna

XD that was a great read. It was certainly absurd, but also very creative ^_^

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_JodanOrNoDan_ (04-20-2017)

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## eldri

--- think its a bell curve---Most snakes are in the middle, just do not care about humans much at all, one way or the other.
 They can 'become tame'(*), or learn to be Hostile ( if repeatedly teased and harassed)

 (*)  they get used to people, put up with being handled,  relax while being handled, may even enjoy exploring..
(  I think they may be able to tell us apart, seem calmer with folks they know)
  most even learn that mice appear After the humans put them back in the cage...


Some  just *Do Not Like* humans, Never settle into being handled, will bite and 'run away'.  Every time. Never get used to it.

Some (very few) *Like* humans.    They are calmer, even as hatchlings, do not  hiss, or offer to bite.
  These snakes will seek out a 'known human' ( familiar smell?) crawl Towards them, if being held by a stranger--- Not 'love', like a mammal, I think,  but  more like " a Known, safe, warm, place"
 ( We become a favorite den?)... and mice often appear, when we have been around

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## Sociopathetic

All I know is
1 Salazar Slytherin doesn't care if I exist only that I feed him
2 When I handle Sal he doesn't enjoy it, he simply allows it.
3 Sal gets annoyed when I stare at him for long periods of time.

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## SPIDERBALL

I'm pretty sure it was only a hypothetical question

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## Louv44

Of course I agree snakes don't love or hate but every now and again you will get one that truly likes being handled. I've had a few over the years that see you and literally do everything they can to get you to take them out. When you come in the room they watch everything you do. Only had a couple like that of course. I had an Argentine Boa male that I swear a few tubes I said to myself did a human die and come back in this snakes body lol, he made me feel he had me on display. Unless he was in a shed or digesting he wanted to hang out with us all day and let us know it, he was miserable in a shed. Seen a few carpets like that too, but man that boa was something lol tripped me out.

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## willow211986

If a snake can know fear and pain why couldn't it know other emotions? There is no way of knowing what a snake feels or not or what kind of connection it makes with someone or something.  To say its a fact that snakes can't "feel"  is wrong. There have been many studies on animal behavior that back me up. Just because we can't understand the inner brain of a snake doesn't mean it doesn't have the ability. It just means we aren't advanced enough or have the resources  to understand them

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*Bogertophis* (07-15-2018),CelticVikingNerd (07-22-2018),_Team Slytherin_ (10-14-2017)

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## Zach_este93

Even if snakes can't love could they not possibly rationalize a symbiotic relationship with instinct? For example the old saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you". By providing heat, security, food and not attacking them ourselves could our snakes possibly see us as co-habitators of the same area? Could they not see us an necessary to their survival and thus act in ways that we see as "loving" because they can see that WE like when they act that way (like a dog shaking for a treat...they don't want to shake)

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_Godzilla78_ (12-31-2017)

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## Newbie39

> Even if snakes can't love could they not possibly rationalize a symbiotic relationship with instinct? For example the old saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you". By providing heat, security, food and not attacking them ourselves could our snakes possibly see us as co-habitators of the same area? Could they not see us an necessary to their survival and thus act in ways that we see as "loving" because they can see that WE like when they act that way (like a dog shaking for a treat...they don't want to shake)


I think they know who we are.  Especially when they know the difference between your hand and food.  Do they love us?  Likely not.  But they put up with us.  We give them a nice warm home and a nice warm rat every week.  I think that makes them a little happy lol.

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## jcorsaletti

this seems like something fun to chime in on  :Smile:  I'm very new to the BP community and just purchsed my first baby Kova (.1 Butter Pastel Lesser 6 months old) I've been doing bunches of research and watching every reputible vlogger out there and while I don't believe snakes necessarily "love" or "hate" I do believe they establish a sense of comfort and familiarity with their handler. they learn our smell and touch and the way our voice sounds. I've read that snakes can in fact hear noise and not just sense vibrations, while it may be very slight I believe they recognize our tone and the way we speak just as a dog would. which would explain why some snakes are finicky when someone other than their owner is handling them  :Smile:

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## Godzilla78

I know my snakes love me, because they sometimes give me that puppy dog look, and sometimes lick my face, and wrap around my neck, and sometimes they send me greeting cards, and roses.  :ROFL:

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*Bogertophis* (07-15-2018),_Ronniex2_ (09-13-2018)

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## Bogertophis

> ... while I don't believe snakes necessarily "love" or "hate" I do believe they establish a sense of comfort and familiarity with their handler. they learn our smell and touch and the way our voice sounds. I've read that snakes can in fact hear noise and not just sense vibrations, while it may be very slight I believe they recognize our tone and the way we speak just as a dog would. which would explain why some snakes are finicky when someone other than their owner is handling them


I mostly agree with this, except you lost me at snakes hearing & recognizing our voices.  When snakes show preference for handling by their owner versus strangers, 
it has everything to do with familiarity of our touch & scent (their best senses that we know of) & nothing (IMO) to do with our voices.  I say this because I've had this 
happen, but without talking, and even IF they can hear a little, it would hardly be their best sense.  I don't think snakes love or hate us...they either learn that we are 
safe to be around or that we cannot be trusted and they resist out of instinctive fear.  Then again, there was that one very misguided male rosy boa that kept working 
his spurs on my neck... :ROFL:  

I do know that snakes learn & remember us though, which suggest a little more intelligence than many want to give them credit for.  And I say this because if they were 
simply "instinctive" creatures, wouldn't we have to re-tame them with every approach?  But that's NOT the case...my snakes are not handled often, much less "constantly"
-yet they obviously "know" me and aren't afraid & defensive.  And another thing:  it appears this suspension of instincts holds for meeting other people...most of my 
snakes have done "meet & greets" with total strangers (including chaotic children) and have been fine with it.  That suggests "trust" to me, & trust requires thinking, ya?

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_Ronniex2_ (09-13-2018)

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## Craiga 01453

> I know my snakes love me, because they sometimes give me that puppy dog look, and sometimes lick my face, and wrap around my neck, and sometimes they send me greeting cards, and roses.


My snakes suck! They never buy me anything! 
They just leave me poop, pee, urates and the occasional crappy skin they don't want anymore.  :ROFL:

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_Alter-Echo_ (09-13-2018),_Avsha531_ (07-16-2018),*Bogertophis* (07-15-2018),_JodanOrNoDan_ (07-16-2018)

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## Alter-Echo

The poll choice was a bit limited, so I went with the first option. I don't know if reptiles feel love or not, I think they do have emotions and can learn to enjoy things, human company included. I simply think that reptiles are so different, that they may even have emotions we do not have the ability to feel, and visa versa.

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_Ronniex2_ (09-13-2018)

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## Ronniex2

Ill be honest, I know it sound silly, but like when itcomes to behavior, most animals it can be trained into their behavior... Not easilybut you know what I mean even with your noodle, using Maslows hierarchy ofneeds... I have found  even in my fish! I had (large S. Am. Cichlids- Oscar andJag) I read something about it being as difficult as making a fish do a loop-D-loopso I tried it  it took almost a year of constant practice almost daily before feedingsbefore they stated to do it but eventually .. a tap on the glass and now withoutthem chasing my finger around for the loop, they would do it on their own !!...I read in my phycology book, if you can identify the needs that are mostimportant to the living creature you could create a behavior  plant = sunlight,animals= food, humans = love  IMO ... They start off snippy or scared... Eventuallythey realize  they get fed by these means. So they become more receptive tothe smell... Tapping... Whistling/ humming  is what I do before I feed mysnakes. I like rituals 
My Spell is a 2016 hatchling and though I knew enough aboutBPs to feel comfortable investing in her in hopes to enjoying my big whitesnake  like I do now :Very Happy:  ...... 
Dont hate me but I do think it helped with her identifyingwith me more, as for whatever reason I did not want her to identify me as the food,rather the provider, I also read some threads where ppl have had snakes foryears and did the same so I went with it too. 
I fed her in separate enclosure for her 1st year.I know, I know... stress, it can take them out of food mode, etc. she and hercomrades are all in a front facing rack set up now and are eating out of theirenclosures, she very quickly realizes when its feeding time or if I ambringing her out for a stretch I swearShe looks for the exercise sometimeslol... Or just trying to escape every time Im in the room but she has the besttemperament towards me... Sometimes when she is on a family member of mine shewill not sit as still or for as long for them as she would for me and when I amnear she reaches for me ...I did an experiment with my twin, and she deff wentfor me each time lol I think its just ability know the smell they are familiarwith... Maybe in hopes of food (Eventually), but to put up with our big, scary,human selves as they do, but LOVE is for mammals and birds lol... negative onthe reptiles, amphibians, and invertebrates... I think its just a familiarizationthing... Im sure some zoologist will clarify this for us lol but its alwaysgood to have something to believe in, even if its :Razz:  love from a serpent :Snake: 
 :Salute:  :Salute:

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## Ronniex2

> I know my snakes love me, because they sometimes give me that puppy dog look, and sometimes lick my face, and wrap around my neck, and sometimes they send me greeting cards, and roses.



What morphs do you have Godzilla  :Surprised: ? i need to make a purchase off you... your snakes have manners  :Good Job:  
lmfaO!!! :ROFL:

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*Bogertophis* (10-15-2019),_Godzilla78_ (09-28-2018)

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## Skyrivers

> To those who answered, My snake loves me, how did you come up with that conclusion????


It is all the wonderful hugs they give! Don't you hug people you like? :ROFL:

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## Zincubus

> It is all the wonderful hugs they give! Don't you hug people you like?


We also hug people we don't like though ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Bogertophis

> We also hug people we don't like though ...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not to mention that "snake hugs" usually mean something else entirely... :ROFL:

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## alittleFREE

Look, logically, I know that my snake is a snake and only has the capacity for certain things in life. Love likely isn't one of those.

But.... she comes out of her hide when she hears my voice. So that's enough for me.

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Ella_S (10-15-2019),Florence_Bones (10-21-2018)

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## Helonwheelz383

> Look, logically, I know that my snake is a snake and only has the capacity for certain things in life. Love likely isn't one of those.
> 
> But.... she comes out of her hide when she hears my voice. So that's enough for me.


That's kinda how I look a it too. I don't think they're capable of emotions beyond fight, flight, and food. Mine seems to act differently with me but I also handle her regularly and on top of that the hand that drops in delicious rodents is attached to me. She's extremely comfortable with me and she knows that I'm not a threat and on the other hand I still make sure I'm aware of how I'm handling and moving about when around her to not invoke an instinctual response whereas with my German Shepherd I know without a shadow of doubt something like a sudden movement won't get me bit. When I'm laying in the lovesac watching the tube my bp lays on my shoulder or sprawls out on the top of my head and seemingly watches tv. I highly doubt it's because she likes to or loves me. I think she just knows that she's safe and it's probably just a nice warm spot. As for the tv it's probably just the heat coming off it or something that has her interested I'd imagine. I think as humans we have a tendency to interpret that extra comfortability or odd behaviors as "affection" when they aren't capable of those emotions per se. But if we perceive it that way then is there really any difference anyway?

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## Kota Mystique

If they can express aggression, become defensive, or become calm, something has got to be going through their heads. I agree that they dont love tho

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## FollowTheSun

I think they can have feelings of trust for certain people, and they can associate handling with being able to explore or play. Love is a pretty deep word to associate with a snake, though. They do have feelings. They may not be very advanced feelings, but there are still some feelings there.

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*Bogertophis* (04-06-2019)

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## Ella_S

I 100% wouldn't say love, but one of my BPs seems at least somewhat fond of me... in the way his cute little dumb head can be, anyway.

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*Bogertophis* (10-15-2019)

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## ladywhipple02

Extremely interesting how this poll has changed over the years. The top bar is slowly but surely catching up with the bottom bar.

Is it bad that I can remember when this was started??

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_AbsoluteApril_ (10-16-2019)

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## wnateg

I think it's like one of those people that owns a pet bear. The owner trains them pretty well so you can feed them and maybe even can handle and play with them; you think they're tamed like a house cat. Then one day, the owner is dead. At the end of the day, they're wild animals.

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## Zincubus

> I think it's like one of those people that owns a pet bear. The owner trains them pretty well so you can feed them and maybe even can handle and play with them; you think they're tamed like a house cat. Then one day, the owner is dead. At the end of the day, they're wild animals.



SPOILER ... gruesome ending. !


That reminds me of the incident in the States about ten years ago ... it was a fairly well known celeb as I recall and they had a pet chimp that had free roam of their home !!

One day she had a fancy doo and it ripped the face of one of her friends !!!





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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*Bogertophis* (01-24-2020)

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## Bogertophis

> SPOILER ... gruesome ending. !
> 
> 
> That reminds me of the incident in the States about ten years ago ... it was a fairly well known celeb as I recall and they had a pet chimp that had free roam of their home !!
> 
> One day she had a fancy doo and it ripped the face of one of her friends !!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I remember that one too...pretty awful to have to live with that, either as the badly-injured friend OR the guilt-ridden owner.

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Zincubus (01-24-2020)

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## Kethith

> I think it's like one of those people that owns a pet bear. The owner trains them pretty well so you can feed them and maybe even can handle and play with them; you think they're tamed like a house cat. Then one day, the owner is dead. At the end of the day, they're wild animals.


Dogs kill people as well, including their own owners of many years. Cats will eat their owners when they die, and would most likely kill you on a nearly daily basis if they were capable of it lol. People frequently kill other people as well; in most cases, people kill their loved ones. At the end of the day, were all at least a little bit that bear. Dont know that that is very relevant to a discussion of love, sentience, or intelligence. It might actually be more of an argument for intelligence in that my snake and I are capable of killing one another and yet we choose not to on a daily basis.

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_Alicia_ (05-02-2020),vivi (04-28-2020)

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## PartySnake13

I think my snake loves the fact that I feed her  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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aerie (04-28-2020),cincy (05-01-2020)

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## Icedragonair

I dont think love in the way we feel it is a thing for snakes, but I dont think my snake is indifferent to me. Its weird because my female BP is very mellow, for the longest time she wouldn't even strike at her food, she would just gently take it out of my tongs. When ever I come by her cage and she sees me she will peek her head out. If I stop and open the door she will peek out a bit more. This happens almost every time. I though it might be that she thinks shes getting fed but she is an incredibly poor eater, when she was a baby she didnt eat for months and even now often wastes the rats and if she does eat them its after a few hours and usually shows little enthusiasm for them right away.

So my current theory is maybe shes just kinda checking out whos at her territory, kinda like "whos there".

Funnily enough she is kinda fat right now and I took her swimming for exercise a couple of times and she was definitely not a fan of that, since then when I come by her cage she ignores me.

TL;DR maybe she doesnt love me but is at least positively curious about my presence.

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BeansTheDerp (05-13-2021)

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## e_nigma

I know that my snake recognizes me, reacts differently to others, however, I am hard pressed to anthropomorphize her behaviors. I do not think she loves me, I think she recognizes me as a source of food, she is perhaps comfortable with me and handling her, she will almost always periscope when I come home and often will watch me if I am in the same room. Is it recognition, probably, scent possibly, but I am not sure they feel love in the way a domesticated animal does, that has bonded with humans over hundreds, if not thousands of years. See: dogs, cats, predominantly mammals that seem to have been domesticated. It is not impossible, but I do not think it plausible that they "love" you. 

My BP went from an occasional stroke when she was around, to she is pretty okay with it (though I do it rarely, maybe once a month), she doesn't show joy, but she no longer recoils and often will poke her head out from her hide and watch me. Much as I have heard two entry hides, say a half log, is something they do not prefer, she now avoids both of her single entry rock hides and primarily uses the two entry spots, the half logs, and I often catch her poking her head out from one side or another, and figure possibly she has a preference to the versatility! Or.. it is anthropomophism.

Just my two cents, the article is an interesting read as well, please see it below:

https://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/reptile-emotions/

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## BeansTheDerp

I dOnT oWn a sNaKe yEt XD

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## KL888

Sorry if this has been said before but I am not reading 61 pages. To the best of scientific knowledge Snakes do not have the ability to show "love" as defined by humans. That being said that does not mean it's impossible for them to have something like "love" in their own way. Lastly Given the rather complex and revelatory state of neuroscience that could all change at any time. Put another way you are mostly (likely to the snake) a giant warm snake the brings a "easy" meal, so it prefers you is what I would say, as apposed to love or like.


KL

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## BeansTheDerp

I voted yes, but for a reason I will explain. one day I was cleaning my ball python's enclosure and I had him in a snake bag, the bag was far away from me and between me and him was a vent blowing warm air that was around his enclosure temps. the vent was closer to him than I was, like way closer, but instead of going to the vent he went to ME. and crawled up in my lap and looked up at me and curled up into the "my body is my pillow" position WHICH MEANS IT IS RELAXED AND CALM. and yeah every will say "Oh that's because it trusts you" well, doesn't trust have to do with love, like seriously! you trust something because you feel calm and good around them and you love them. and seriously how does the scientist that found out they're missing a part of their brain not know if they might have a different part of the brain that allows them to feel the emotion? and plus, scientists thought they didn't have ears, but they were just covered by scales. and so many people have TRIED to make me think other wise, but what about the time when I was crying because I got to stressed out about something, AND THIS LITTLE NOODLE, looked me in the eyes, and pressed his nose onto mine and held it there for a little bit. THIS LIL DUDE BOOPED ME. and another time when I was upset he went around my neck and started flexing his muscles (keep in mind he's only a year old this wouldn't be some sort of mating thing or whatever) and it was like he was massaging me, he's done it to my dad as well but the things he does, it's so obvious. you can SEE IT, in his eyes and his behavior. and when at the vet they came out and they were like, "he was so behaved! usually they're a bit like 'ew no get away' but he didn't care!" 


Again it's my opinion and my proof and so many people can give different things of why he does each thing but honestly I don't see it as anything else because, when your family member is sad wouldn't you hug them? maybe give them a neck massage! also Beans let's me Boop his nose whenever and he let's me pat him on the head and pet under his chin, he'll afterwards even go into the "body is my pillow" formation, believe the stories or not, I know some of you won't, but hey if you don't want to believe me that's your loss not mine.

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## BeansTheDerp

> I voted yes, but for a reason I will explain. one day I was cleaning my ball python's enclosure and I had him in a snake bag, the bag was far away from me and between me and him was a vent blowing warm air that was around his enclosure temps. the vent was closer to him than I was, like way closer, but instead of going to the vent he went to ME. and crawled up in my lap and looked up at me and curled up into the "my body is my pillow" position WHICH MEANS IT IS RELAXED AND CALM. and yeah every will say "Oh that's because it trusts you" well, doesn't trust have to do with love, like seriously! you trust something because you feel calm and good around them and you love them. and seriously how does the scientist that found out they're missing a part of their brain not know if they might have a different part of the brain that allows them to feel the emotion? and plus, scientists thought they didn't have ears, but they were just covered by scales. and so many people have TRIED to make me think other wise, but what about the time when I was crying because I got to stressed out about something, AND THIS LITTLE NOODLE, looked me in the eyes, and pressed his nose onto mine and held it there for a little bit. THIS LIL DUDE BOOPED ME. and another time when I was upset he went around my neck and started flexing his muscles (keep in mind he's only a year old this wouldn't be some sort of mating thing or whatever) and it was like he was massaging me, he's done it to my dad as well but the things he does, it's so obvious. you can SEE IT, in his eyes and his behavior. and when at the vet they came out and they were like, "he was so behaved! usually they're a bit like 'ew no get away' but he didn't care!" 
> 
> 
> Again it's my opinion and my proof and so many people can give different things of why he does each thing but honestly I don't see it as anything else because, when your family member is sad wouldn't you hug them? maybe give them a neck massage! also Beans let's me Boop his nose whenever and he let's me pat him on the head and pet under his chin, he'll afterwards even go into the "body is my pillow" formation, believe the stories or not, I know some of you won't, but hey if you don't want to believe me that's your loss not mine.



and another thing, how do they associate me with food if I just put the rat in the enclosure and watch him eat, I don't hand feed him, the only thing they WOULD see you as with food is that you watch them eat, and he doesn't even see me put the rat in he'll just be in his hide. so how in the world would they be able to see me as the food giver if they don't see me give the food.

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## Erie_herps

> and another thing, how do they associate me with food if I just put the rat in the enclosure and watch him eat, I don't hand feed him, the only thing they WOULD see you as with food is that you watch them eat, and he doesn't even see me put the rat in he'll just be in his hide. so how in the world would they be able to see me as the food giver if they don't see me give the food.


They see you come in, they get fed. They associate you coming in the room and going to their enclosure with getting food. It gives them a positive association to you and they "want" to be around you because you have a positive association. They don't have the chemical in the brain for love. They might want to be around you because you benefit them but they don't "love" you.

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## BeansTheDerp

well my snake is in a big black tub, the top has a back pet safe mesh spot for us to see in. and he's usually in his hide so he wouldn't see anyways! and once I remove the hides, he just see's a rat in his face. and me watching him eat, you don't look at the person watching you eat and be like "oh they must have supplied this burger I now stick near their side for more burger." that's just not what you would do, and it even sounds weird for a animal.

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## Hugsplox

> , you don't look at the person watching you eat and be like "oh they must have supplied this burger I now stick near their side for more burger." that's just not what you would do, and it even sounds weird for a animal.


This is exactly what animals do though. There are tons of examples in nature of animals associating certain areas or things with food or water, and therefore are "drawn" to them. Think about African elephants, who use the same migration routes year after year after year. They do it because they know where the water is. The matriarch of a group of elephants leads the rest of the herd down those routes because she associates them with what they need. Sea turtles will continuously go back to the same nesting grounds to lay their eggs. They don't love the route or the nesting ground, it's just ingrained into their brain to behave that way. Your snake crawls to you because every time it's gotten to eat there you are.

Your argument that a human wouldn't do that isn't entirely accurate either. How do you think humans survived on Earth as long as we have? We learn to associate certain things with danger, pain, safety, warmth, etc etc. I don't love fire, but if it's cold outside and there's a fire I know I can go over there and warm up. That's all a reptile is doing, associating you with food, safety, warmth, something that benefits them. It doesn't mean that YOU can't love your snake, but your snake doesn't love you.

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*Bogertophis* (07-30-2021),Erie_herps (05-13-2021),_GoingPostal_ (11-01-2022),hihit (05-13-2021),_jmcrook_ (05-13-2021),KL888 (05-13-2021),_Spicey_ (05-21-2021)

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## hihit

> This is exactly what animals do though. There are tons of examples in nature of animals associating certain areas or things with food or water, and therefore are "drawn" to them. Think about African elephants, who use the same migration routes year after year after year. They do it because they know where the water is. The matriarch of a group of elephants leads the rest of the herd down those routes because she associates them with what they need. Sea turtles will continuously go back to the same nesting grounds to lay their eggs. They don't love the route or the nesting ground, it's just ingrained into their brain to behave that way. Your snake crawls to you because every time it's gotten to eat there you are.


And also there are tons of examples of training animals in captivity to associate certain sounds/visuals/smells with food. You can train backyard chickens to run to you when you ring a bell by ringing the bell whenever you feed them or give them treats. Do the chickens physically observe the bell handing them the food? No, obviously not, but they learned over time that "sound of bell => food is here". Clicker training is also very much a thing with many types of animals, who learn to associate the sound of the clicker with food. The snake in question probably learned that "human standing over enclosure watching me => food is here" (also even if he doesn't see you, he can probably sense you in other ways, such as smell, or the sound of the enclosure being opened, etc).

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_Hugsplox_ (05-14-2021)

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## hihit

And I'll add that even cats and dogs, which I regard as fairly intelligent animals with a higher emotional capacity than snakes, make the same types of food associations as your snake probably is. And humans make food associations too, even if we don't realize it. We're all just animals, after all.

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_Hugsplox_ (05-14-2021)

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## Snagrio

Anyone else having this thread highlighted as having new messages despite none being here?  :Confused:

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## Bogertophis

> Anyone else having this thread highlighted as having new messages despite none being here?


Yes, but that's normal- it's because someone answered the poll- so that shows up as a "post".   :Wink:

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Animallover3541 (11-02-2022),_Homebody_ (05-16-2022)

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## YungRasputin

i think snakes are much more intelligent than people realize - which is being confirmed with recent intelligence studies pertaining to them - i also think theyre capable of base emotions and are emotionally intelligent - i aim to do more research into this however i would point out anecdotally that there have been peer reviewed studies involving bees and arachnids which demonstrated that they are capable of experiencing base emotions eg: when subjected to negative stimuli they produced more chemicals that we typically associate with fear and stress in humans - insomuch as reptiles can be socialized and insomuch as humans can form bonds overtime with specific snakes who do indeed feel these base emotions i think i could say they love me in that sort of Star Trek Data Ive gotten use to you sort of way you know

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Animallover3541 (11-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (11-02-2022)

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## Animallover3541

The two main "emotions" I think most if not all animals can feel is stress and contentment. I believe reptiles also possess fear and familiarity, and some more may experience a food-associated or pseudo-companionship type of relationship. Many definitely enjoy the warmth from people too. I have owned frogs which, at the very least, can understand the behaviors and actions I took before I fed them and of course turtles often splash around and reach for their owners in their tanks if they think they are being fed. Its very cute  :Smile:

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*Bogertophis* (11-02-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> i think snakes are much more intelligent than people realize - which is being confirmed with recent intelligence studies pertaining to them - i also think they’re capable of base emotions and are emotionally intelligent - i aim to do more research into this however i would point out anecdotally that there have been peer reviewed studies involving bees and arachnids which demonstrated that they are capable of experiencing base emotions eg: when subjected to negative stimuli they produced more chemicals that we typically associate with fear and stress in humans - insomuch as reptiles can be socialized and insomuch as humans can form bonds overtime with specific snakes who do indeed feel these base emotions i think i could say they love me in that sort of Star Trek Data “I’ve gotten use to you” sort of way you know





> The two main "emotions" I think most if not all animals can feel is stress and contentment. I believe reptiles also possess fear and familiarity, and some more may experience a food-associated or pseudo-companionship type of relationship. Many definitely enjoy the warmth from people too. I have owned frogs which, at the very least, can understand the behaviors and actions I took before I fed them and of course turtles often splash around and reach for their owners in their tanks if they think they are being fed. Its very cute


I agree.  Not based on any official study, but just my experience of many years living with & knowing so many snakes.  And seeing that they remember & trust me, even when not handled often, & that trust carries over to others when I've shared them, even at the vet's office.  None of my snakes have ever bit anyone else once tame with me- I'm not calling it love- more like trust- feeling safe.  And it makes sense to me- in the wild, they learn their way around & learn where they are safe from predators- when they're captive pets, *we're* part of their environment that they learn to trust.  If things change around them, they're instinctively unsettled until they learn they're still safe.  

I do remember reading that snakes that are rehomed are more likely to get sick- ie. their immune system responds to stress much as ours does- stress negatively affects health.  That's why anytime I get a new snake, I try to treat them like a newborn in the ICU- lots of "TLC" while they settle in, & hands off for a while.  New snakes- whether shipped from a breeder or from a store or an expo- have often been thru a LOT & exposed to other diseases along the way- so you want them to remain healthy & have their immune system work as well as possible.

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## YungRasputin

> I agree.  Not based on any official study, but just my experience of many years living with & knowing so many snakes.  And seeing that they remember & trust me, even when not handled often, & that trust carries over to others when I've shared them, even at the vet's office.  None of my snakes have ever bit anyone else once tame with me- I'm not calling it love- more like trust- feeling safe.  And it makes sense to me- in the wild, they learn their way around & learn where they are safe from predators- when they're captive pets, *we're* part of their environment that they learn to trust.  If things change around them, they're instinctively unsettled until they learn they're still safe.  
> 
> I do remember reading that snakes that are rehomed are more likely to get sick- ie. their immune system responds to stress much as ours does- stress negatively affects health.  That's why anytime I get a new snake, I try to treat them like a newborn in the ICU- lots of "TLC" while they settle in, & hands off for a while.  New snakes- whether shipped from a breeder or from a store or an expo- have often been thru a LOT & exposed to other diseases along the way- so you want them to remain healthy & have their immune system work as well as possible.


ive only had 1 non-arachnid/non-snake animal, which was my childhood dog, who was a female pure bred chow chow and i did research once and saw that she as an adult dog had the same cognitive and intellectual abilities of a human child aged 3-5 years old - so its like with that, combined with observable behavior that we know eg: how Cuban boas will hunt like velociraptors for bats in caves or how retics will construct nests or how king cobras will mark their territories and recognize the markings of other snakes - i truly think their much more conscious than we often think - makes me wonder how things could be if we explored that more because another thing i think about is how our behavior effects their behavior and how if we act all closed off because we assume their mindless instinct machines how that probably adversely effects the relationship between keeper and snake

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## YungRasputin

i also would say per your second paragraph - thats the real struggle - my coastal carpets are as big as pencils and Im *dying* to start handling them and taming them but i know its best to wait 😩🤌

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## Bogertophis

> i also would say per your second paragraph - thats the real struggle - my coastal carpets are as big as pencils and Im *dying* to start handling them and taming them but i know its best to wait 😩🤌


How long has it been now?  Sometimes you can take a cue from how "outgoing" (active) they are.

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YungRasputin (11-03-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> ive only had 1 non-arachnid/non-snake animal, which was my childhood dog, who was a female pure bred chow chow and i did research once and saw that she as an adult dog had the same cognitive and intellectual abilities of a human child aged 3-5 years old - so its like with that, combined with observable behavior that we know eg: how Cuban boas will hunt like velociraptors for bats in caves or how retics will construct nests or how king cobras will mark their territories and recognize the markings of other snakes - i truly think their much more conscious than we often think - makes me wonder how things could be if we explored that more because another thing i think about is how our behavior effects their behavior and how if we act all closed off because we assume their mindless instinct machines how that probably adversely effects the relationship between keeper and snake


Of course it often colors the relationship- when people assume what animals are capable of, it's very easy to miss what's really there- we're most likely to see what we expect to see- it's more of a challenge to keep an open mind.  It's a bigger problem to assume what they're incapable of- and when they're referred to as "dumb animals" (as in agriculture & bred for monetary gain) then many feel that "anything goes" for treatment, use & abuse- after all, they're "only animals".  I'd rather assume too much than too little.

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YungRasputin (11-03-2022)

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## YungRasputin

> How long has it been now?  Sometimes you can take a cue from how "outgoing" (active) they are.


i have had them for over a month and the female has shed once and i am unsure if the male has yet because their enclosures are actually p complicated lol rn theyre extremely defensive, and will often run up to the front of the enclosure when i open then front opening window doors and will also attack the water stream when i give them water (which is honestly something i havent seen outside of my Feather-Leg + Togo Starburst baboon tarantulas) - so needless to say theyre über active lol

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## Animallover3541

> Of course it often colors the relationship- when people assume what animals are capable of, it's very easy to miss what's really there- we're most likely to see what we expect to see- it's more of a challenge to keep an open mind.  It's a bigger problem to assume what they're incapable of- and when they're referred to as "dumb animals" (as in agriculture & bred for monetary gain) then many feel that "anything goes" for treatment, use & abuse- after all, they're "only animals".  I'd rather assume too much than too little.



I know a lot of farmers and animal breeders (I show rabbits) and just wanted to clarify that most farmers and breeders do actually care about their animals. Less stress=better quality products whether it be meat, wool, eggs, milk, etc. as stress can negatively impact that and more, plus the risk of diseases spreading is higher with stressed animals. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely people who do abuse the fact that animals will survive and breed in less than ideal conditions and I have seen that, as well as poor handling at various livestock shows but the majority of people raising livestock, poultry, or rabbits for food and show are not neglecting and/or abusing them. However, I don't know enough to say that about people breeding animals like dogs, cats, goldfish, etc. since I'm mostly around livestock breeders and farmers, although I do definitely disagree with the lack of any type of mental stimulation I see in the enclosures of some "pet" breeders' enclosures.

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*Bogertophis* (11-03-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I know a lot of farmers and animal breeders (I show rabbits) and just wanted to clarify that most farmers and breeders do actually care about their animals. Less stress=better quality products whether it be meat, wool, eggs, milk, etc. as stress can negatively impact that and more, plus the risk of diseases spreading is higher with stressed animals. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely people who do abuse the fact that animals will survive and breed in less than ideal conditions and I have seen that, as well as poor handling at various livestock shows but the majority of people raising livestock, poultry, or rabbits for food and show are not neglecting and/or abusing them. However, I don't know enough to say that about people breeding animals like dogs, cats, goldfish, etc. since I'm mostly around livestock breeders and farmers, although I do definitely disagree with the lack of any type of mental stimulation I see in the enclosures of some "pet" breeders' enclosures.


Yes, I agree- & it's really too big of a subject to generalize- I was thinking more about cattle feed lots, & puppy mill types- & even some reptile wholesalers- & the fact that many people buying just would rather not know what goes on & therefore they tacitly accept it by continuing to purchase.  But yes, on the local level you mean, many DO care a great deal & provide excellent care.  Part of the problem is that in such a big world with animals marketed far from where they originated, we don't always see the sources to know- & that's the problem.

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Animallover3541 (11-03-2022)

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