# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Big News Coming Tomorrow!

## Cross Exotics

So some HUGE news I'll be posting tomorrow. I couldn't contain myself so I had to post something. Once I speak with Amir and get the video set I'll blow the top off some long awaited news for a beautiful gene. 

Sent from Cross Exotics

----------


## Neal

> So some HUGE news I'll be posting tomorrow. I couldn't contain myself so I had to post something. Once I speak with Amir and get the video set I'll blow the top off some long awaited news for a beautiful gene. 
> 
> Sent from Cross Exotics


Wait, no other kind of hint? Not that I'm all up with the latest morphs and stuff, but I'm still saying one day somewhere in the future there is going to be a pink snake.

----------

Badgemash (07-06-2013)

----------


## Badgemash

Citrus Pastel Desert related?

----------


## Cross Exotics

> Citrus Pastel Desert related?


Spies are among us ;-) 

Sent from my SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## interloc

I'm replying just so I get alerts when more posts happen lol

----------


## ironpython

Me.too

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser,  0.1 spider, 1.3 norm. 1.0 fire  0.1 RTB  0.0 sav. Mon.

----------


## carlson

> I'm replying just so I get alerts when more posts happen lol


Im copying loc in quote fashion

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## Andybill

Subscribed. This better be good!  :Wink:

----------


## lightpied

It's tomorrow!!

----------


## Cross Exotics

Waiting for reply from Amir. If he doesn't get back with me by later in the day then I'll drop the bomb.  :Surprised:

----------


## Raven01

Subbed.
And, if there is a snake god please let it involve a Desert line without the fertility issues in females.
I'll be doing cartwheels in the lawn like a little kid if it does.

----------

_Anya_ (07-06-2013),qegalpal (07-06-2013)

----------


## qegalpal

Just ran into Amir at the Fort Lauderdale Repticon, so he's a little busy.
Might as well let us know what the great news is.  :Taz:  :Taz:  :Taz: 

PLEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZE

----------


## JMinILM

> Subbed.
> And, if there is a snake god please let it involve a Desert line without the fertility issues in females.


That's what I was thinking too. Lets hope it is!

----------

_Anya_ (07-06-2013)

----------


## Lee Harvey

:Dancin' Banana:

----------


## DooLittle

Well????

----------

sian.kelly (05-21-2016)

----------


## adamfritzsche

The suspense is killing me...

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

if it does happen to be breedable desert females.. things are about to get crazy.

----------


## grcforce327

> Big News Coming Tomorrow!


Tomorrow never comes,it's always today!

----------


## adamfritzsche

> if it does happen to be breedable desert females.. things are about to get crazy.


LOL, I was thinking the same. Anything less at this point is going to be a let down.  :Very Happy:

----------


## Marrissa

Just do it drop the bomb now. This is peer pressure and you have to give in.  :Razz:   :Very Happy:

----------


## Cross Exotics

Just received a text from Amir and once we speak after his show then it will come. Muhahahha!

----------


## GHOST_584

Subscribed!

----------


## Marrissa

> Just received a text from Amir and once we speak after his show then it will come. Muhahahha!


Tease.  :Razz:

----------


## SlitherinSisters

This better be worth the hype  :Wink: 

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2

----------

_Anya_ (07-06-2013),rabernet (07-06-2013)

----------


## carlson

> This better be worth the hype 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2


That's what she said!  :Wink:  see we're getting rowdy now lol jus kidding!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

> This better be worth the hype 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2


it kinda makes me want to make a thread and hype it up real bad.. drop a few big breeders names and tell everyone they have to wait a week.. and then say "jk" when the week is up.  :Wink: 

not saying they're doing this at all.. would just be funny. :p

----------

_Bluebonnet Herp_ (07-12-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-06-2013),_Pyrate81_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## carlson

> it kinda makes me want to make a thread and hype it up real bad.. drop a few big breeders names and tell everyone they have to wait a week.. and then say "jk" when the week is up. 
> 
> not saying they're doing this at all.. would just be funny. :p


After the week is up show a picture of a normal and say thats all folks!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

----------

_Anya_ (07-06-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (07-12-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-06-2013),_Pyrate81_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

if the news doesnt come in the next three hours, i'm hitting the streets and starting a riot. who's with me?

----------

_Anya_ (07-06-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (07-12-2013),_crepers86_ (07-06-2013),dgring (01-03-2014),_liv_ (07-06-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-06-2013),_Pyrate81_ (07-07-2013),qegalpal (07-06-2013),SlitherinSisters (07-06-2013)

----------


## Herpenthusiast3

Subscribe

----------


## Mephibosheth1

I'm not sure how we could coordinate between Cali and Tennessee, but I'm all for it...this wait is killing me

----------

_Anya_ (07-06-2013)

----------


## rabernet

> This better be worth the hype 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2


Agreed. And why isn't Amir the one to share if it is such big news?  :Confused: 

Sent from my Samsung Note II using Tapatalk 2

----------

_Emilio_ (07-07-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-06-2013)

----------


## lightpied

Bomb needs to be dropped!!!

----------


## Mephibosheth1

"You can't say bomb on a snake forum!!"


Mephibosheth Fokker

----------

_Anya_ (07-06-2013)

----------


## adamsky27

Show over yet? Lets do this!

----------


## interloc

You know April 1 was like over 3 months ago...

----------

_arialmt_ (07-09-2013),_crepers86_ (07-06-2013)

----------


## AdamL8

> You know April 1 was like over 3 months ago...


Yes...  What is your point?

----------


## interloc

> Yes...  What is your point?


That if this is a joke, it's ill timed.

----------


## Cross Exotics

Relax... here it comes..   :Smile:

----------


## Badgemash

> Spies are among us ;-) 
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2


Nope, just looked rough your old posts and made a guess. Was it a good guess?

Was based off this...
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ection-Update-)

----------


## Cross Exotics

First of all I want to thank this community so much for it's effort to make the ball python industry and hobby it is today, and for all the help I've received from this forum. THANK YOU! So the story goes back last year I bought this female Citrus Pastel Desert Female from Amir at the Orlando show. I was reluctant with all the issues and even Amir was willing to take her back in good faith for standing behind his name and reputation. I kept this lovely girl at the request of my family and named her "Sheba" and as a family we even prayed for her. Yesterday, 07-05-13 after pairing her with my Pastel Calico and Mystic males she surprised me with 6 healthy eggs! 



After taking her off with all my excitement they were candled and showed fertile in each one! 



SO.... Here's the bomb for the world! I'll post more pics after dinner and the video if I can figure it out  :Razz:  
Here at "Cross Exotics" the first FEMALE Citrus Pastel Desert has successfully laid 6 fertile eggs and had no issues! Progress and more details to follow... Love Ya Guys   :Razz:

----------

_Anya_ (07-06-2013),_Archimedes_ (07-06-2013),_arialmt_ (07-09-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (07-12-2013),_Bruceweb_ (07-07-2013),dgring (01-13-2014),DooLittle (07-06-2013),_irishanaconda_ (07-07-2013),_jsmorphs2_ (07-06-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-06-2013),_Mr Oni_ (07-07-2013),Neal (07-07-2013),_Pyrate81_ (07-07-2013),_Raven01_ (07-06-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-07-2013),rpmoore318 (07-08-2013),sharkrocket (07-06-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),_spitzu_ (07-06-2013),_STjepkes_ (07-12-2013),_Wapadi_ (07-06-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013),xtian228 (07-09-2013)

----------


## Badgemash

Congrats! But I have to ask what made you think it would work in the first place? Seems like a very high-risk move.

----------


## TheSnakeGuy

Holy crap! Is this really a first!?

----------


## SquamishSerpents

Subbing and getting popcorn. Exciting thread!!

----------

Badgemash (07-06-2013)

----------


## Badgemash

> Subbing and getting popcorn. Exciting thread!!


Popcorn sounds like an excellent idea.

----------


## Marrissa

Interesting. Congrats! Can't wait to see the babies.

----------


## spitzu

Very interesting.  Congrats!

----------


## JMinILM

Is this a different line of desert than the ones that have been having fertility issues?

If not what was different? Did the citrus pastel have an effect? 

This is very interesting. 

Bet it will lead to a slew of desert females being bred... Hope they don't have issues and suffer for it...

Not saying others should or shouldn't breed their desert females, just that its interesting.

----------


## danrjc

Can you give us any extra data on the female? How big was she when you started breeding her?

----------


## lightpied

Wow that's incredible congrats!! More info would be great! What's her weight??

----------


## Marrissa

Someone posted this video the other day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uStCAKMbnqQ
I wonder if it's like what they're theorizing, when you throw enough genes in there you override the effects of the genes (like in their case lethal combos). In this case fertility issues. Or maybe she's just a fluke fertile female. It'll be interesting to see what the babies turn out like, and then if those desert females will be fertile too.

----------


## Mike41793

Do you have any other pics of that female, like when she was younger? I feel like a citrus pastel desert would be a lot brighter than that. Shooting from the hip, i'm gunna say it doesn't look like the desert gene is in that snake, and that's why she laid a viable clutch... This isn't something to joke around about either, not that anyone has been, because if that snake really doesn't carry the desert gene then people need to know. Otherwise you'll have everyone and their brother attempting to breed desert females and then killing their snakes. 

Just my take on it, please don't take offense.

----------

Badgemash (07-07-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (07-07-2013),_dillan2020_ (07-06-2013),_GenePirate_ (07-06-2013),_I-KandyReptiles_ (07-06-2013),_JMinILM_ (07-06-2013),PiercingPrincess (07-08-2013),_satomi325_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

Yea, i'm really questioning it... The pastel desert on this page looks different than your female. A lot more blushing: 

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm

I think you just have a citrus pastel, no desert.

----------


## SlitherinSisters

> Someone posted this video the other day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uStCAKMbnqQ
> I wonder if it's like what they're theorizing, when you throw enough genes in there you override the effects of the genes (like in their case lethal combos). In this case fertility issues. Or maybe she's just a fluke fertile female. It'll be interesting to see what the babies turn out like, and then if those desert females will be fertile too.


It's definitely possible, most male calico cats are sterile but you will find some that are viable breeders. Same with mules, they are supposed to be sterile but some are breedable. It's like Jurassic Park, nature always finds a way. 

This is definitely interesting! Also, I wasn't aware that female deserts were dying when bred. If that's true, that's nuts.  

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2

----------


## lightpied

> Do you have any other pics of that female, like when she was younger? I feel like a citrus pastel desert would be a lot brighter than that. Shooting from the hip, i'm gunna say it doesn't look like the desert gene is in that snake, and that's why she laid a viable clutch... This isn't something to joke around about either, not that anyone has been, because if that snake really doesn't carry the desert gene then people need to know. Otherwise you'll have everyone and their brother attempting to breed desert females and then killing their snakes. 
> 
> Just my take on it, please don't take offense.


Looks like a Desert pastel to me. my 2 cents anyways.

----------


## jbean7916

Subbing for updates!

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

----------


## interloc

> Yea, i'm really questioning it... The pastel desert on this page looks different than your female. A lot more blushing: 
> 
> http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm
> 
> I think you just have a citrus pastel, no desert.


This is a pic of the same snake from another thread. 


I think the photo of the snake on eggs wasn't really taken with the greatest care due to eggcitment. Lol. And if the snake came from Amir (like it sounds to me) I would say, I would trust his judgement on if the desert in there. Just my .02

----------

PitOnTheProwl (07-07-2013)

----------


## Casey Hulse

That looks desert to me. Now the waiting eh?
 :Good Job:

----------


## bxjoon

This is interesting

----------


## DanaM

Subbing for updates

----------


## JMinILM

wow, getting more interesting...

----------


## Mike41793

For now, i'm still gunna go against the grain and say thats just a citrus pastel. Can't wait to see if any babies look like deserts though. Its a dominant gene so each egg has a 50% chance of getting the gene, correct? 

I could be wrong though, considering i'd be arguing with a veteran breeder like amir, and what do i know lol.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Tom Pecanic

Been waiting for some thing like this to happen for the gene. Don't you be BS'n poster  :Wink: 

That pic looks awfully legit to me! :$)

----------


## SaintTawny

I'm gonna have to agree with Mike. I don't see the Desert. I'm also kind of saddened by how this will impact the Desert market and probably result in the deaths of many more female Deserts as people try to replicate your results. Every glimmer of hope starts this ball rolling again. Maybe that's not a bad thing if this really is the time it works out, but I don't have high expectations given how this has gone in the past. 

That aside, major congrats if you really are the first person to have a female Desert capable of breeding! Only time will tell how the clutch goes, right? I hope no matter what genes are at play, your babies are all healthy  :Smile:

----------

Damzlfly (07-07-2013),PiercingPrincess (07-08-2013)

----------


## Cross Exotics

I know this has been a touchy situation regarding the viable breeding of the female Deserts and I tell you this is not a joke or a funny in any way. I would not toss Amir's name into the wind at the sake of making some excitement due to the respect I have for him and what he does. That being said when I bought her I actually brought her back to him the next day, and he was willing to take her back due to my concerns. However, my son begged me not to return her and so i listened to his plea. That moment is what brought this moment to pass. When pairing began she was nearly 1600g and eating well. I initially paired her with my Pastel Calico first with scheduled pairing, and then I paired my Mystic. She went off feed and displayed signs of ovulation and later she shed. However, it was nearly a month and a half before she laid post ovulation shed. The pairings were with the Mystic and Pastel Calico in the pics within my previous thread. Enjoy, and ask away. I will be transparent as possible so all can benefit from this event. 

Her house when I bought her.



The receipt..



The Lock (w/ Pastel Calico) Mystic wasn't observed, but he's proven.



Candled ....








I have a video of taking her off the eggs, but would need a little assistance for loading it. 

Thanks,  Joe

----------


## Mike41793

Do you have any baby pics/juvenile pics of her?

----------


## cmenger

Subbbbbbed keep ys updated

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

while i'm not seeing the desert really either, i've never worked with desert and i trust amirs eyes more than mine. but if desert females do pop out you better hold them back and prove them out yourself. if they all prove viable this is gonna be a game changer.

----------

_Raven01_ (07-06-2013)

----------


## lingmeister

> Waiting for reply from Amir. If he doesn't get back with me by later in the day then I'll drop the bomb.


Please let me know!!!!!!!!! This is completely unfair to make us wait.... but I will!!!!!!!!! :Smile:

----------


## Kodieh

Are we going to assume the possibility that it was just a REALLY REALLY bad example of desert? That it was just an absolute piss poor citrus pastel that makes it so dark? 

I don't see the desert either, but I'll reserve judgement till those eggs hatch. Be spot on with your incubating, this will be revolutionary if it really desert.

----------


## Cross Exotics

The Pastel Calico she is locked with in the picture.



Her younger days as requested..

----------


## Kodieh

Hmmmm.

I see more brightness, and that brownout line points towards a low quality pastel to me.  :Embarassed:

----------


## Marrissa

Ah I wish you had a DSLR camera or were close by so I could take pics for you with mine. I don't think the light is helping and they're somewhat blurry.

----------


## Cross Exotics

Pastel isn't the gene in question and I trust Amir and his reputation for what I bought from him. I'll keep all updated on the incubation and outcome following. Thank you for the replies and questions. ZZzzzzz....  :Very Happy:

----------


## Cross Exotics

> Ah I wish you had a DSLR camera or were close by so I could take pics for you with mine. I don't think the light is helping and they're somewhat blurry.


Yeah, at that time I didn't own one. I have one now and will use it for sure. Cell phone pics are blah, lol  :Razz:

----------


## amir

Joseph,
Congrats on the clutch
I remember the animal you bought and it was one of 1.3 Citrus Deserts produced from a Desert male to a Super Citrus/Pastel female
There are 2 other girls out there so hopefully someone else can back your results in the near future.
I looked for baby pics and this one is all I could find of a sib

People should and will have to wait till next season to breed Deserts and by then all of these questions will be answered.
If it is of any importance, I do have 8.22 adult Deserts and Desert combos so you may not be the only one looking for answers.

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-06-2013),_Anya_ (07-06-2013),Badgemash (07-07-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (07-12-2013),_Cross Exotics_ (07-06-2013),dgring (01-13-2014),_jben_ (07-07-2013),_liv_ (07-07-2013),MarkS (07-07-2013),_Marrissa_ (07-06-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),Wonzzer (07-07-2013)

----------


## MarkS

I think this is amazing!  It's certainly going to be a long two months.  This is a real cliff hanger, I can't wait to see what happens next.

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Raven01

This could be huge news.
And, people thought waiting a day was bad.  Now there will be a wait for any females exhibiting the Desert characteristics to mature and breed.  And, hopefully remain healthy and have successful clutches.
I am really unconcerned as to whether or not this is exactly the same gene as the known Desert morph or morph that looks enough like a Desert to fool Amir.  I just hope it isn't a fluke female and turns our to be a reproducible Desert or Desert-like morph.
And, that is provided the odds-gods play nice and there are female hatchlings with the gene.

----------


## Royal Hijinx

I think folks need to calm down.

When we see Desert babies crawl out of the eggs, that will be something.  Honestly, I prolly would have waited till there were babies and had perfect documentation in place before making this hyped up announcement.

With that said... ONE viable clutch out of HUNDREDS does not mean the problem is solved.  There have still been a LOT more desert females killed in breeding attempts than this one possible success.  Odds that I do not see as worth it for the animals.

I agree if that female is Citrus Desert, she is not the best looking example, so that def casts doubt on top of all this.

----------

_asplundii_ (07-09-2013),_C&H Exotic Morphs_ (07-07-2013),_GoingPostal_ (07-22-2013),_satomi325_ (07-07-2013),snakesRkewl (07-07-2013),_TheSnakeGeek_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Andybill

> I think folks need to calm down.
> 
> When we see Desert babies crawl out of the eggs, that will be something.  Honestly, I prolly would have waited till there were babies and had perfect documentation in place before making this hyped up announcement.
> 
> With that said... ONE viable clutch out of HUNDREDS does not mean the problem is solved.  There have still been a LOT more desert females killed in breeding attempts than this one possible success.  Odds that I do not see as worth it for the animals.
> 
> I agree if that female is Citrus Desert, she is not the best looking example, so that def casts doubt on top of all this.


I agree 100%. When baby deserts start crawling outta those eggs I will be more satisfied but there is still a lot of bad history with this morph and I am not holding my breath.

----------


## Coleslaw007

I personally feel like she's just a very high quality pastel but let's wait and see, I'm no one to doubt Amir, just what she looks like to me.

I mainly just fear that this could lead to a LOT of people trying to breed their female deserts and desert combos and a lot of deaths. Even if she IS desert, it doesn't mean the others will magically be capable of being bred, she could be a fluke. So many ppl will try to breed a snake, but won't spend the money on a vet and surgery if things go wrong.  :Sad: 

To the OP: Honestly, no offense, but I really feel it was a bit irresponsible to try and breed her in the first place. Not trying to be an ass here, but that's an animal's life you risked. Just because it worked doesn't mean it wasn't a risk. I REALLY hope you had a GOOD vet on standby and were willing to drop the huge amounts of money on any necessary surgery.

Sent from microwave via Tapatalk ll

----------

Badgemash (07-07-2013),_GoingPostal_ (07-22-2013),_Kodieh_ (07-07-2013),PiercingPrincess (07-08-2013),_rlditmars_ (07-07-2013),_satomi325_ (07-07-2013),_Wes_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

> With that said... ONE viable clutch out of HUNDREDS does not mean the problem is solved.  There have still been a LOT more desert females killed in breeding attempts than this one possible success.  Odds that I do not see as worth it for the animals.


i do agree with this.. if this actually IS a desert female.. i would not have even announced this until i had raised the female offspring up and they produced viable clutches.. and when they did, i'd be rich.. any other way and you could just be putting thousands of desert females in danger. that way it would work out for both you and the animals.

----------


## majorleaguereptiles

First, congrats! This looks like it could be very exciting news! I figured I would chime in since many people have asked for my thoughts on this female. First, Amir has a great eye and has been doing this for a long time. This female was produced from a super citrus, which means the base for pastel vs pastel desert should have been even that much more distinguishable. I see her as a pastel desert, and would have sold her as one just as Amir did. 

The only hint of doubt for me at this moment was the fact this may be a citrus pastel that didn't take on its genetic appearance and perhaps had a developmental issue that gave her more pronounced color and contrast. However, I'm not really seeing incubation effect with her in any extreme fashion and I personally think she is simply a pastel desert.

Those who say she doesn't look bright enough, if you've seen adult deserts, they really aren't nearly as bright or striking as they are as babies... 

 I believe this female is a pastel desert. Now, whether or not the eggs go full term, I don't know. We also need to see a desert come out of these eggs... I'm plugged in, and very excited to see this outcome. 

Great job by the OP documenting this properly. I believe it is the owners discretion whether or not you choose to breed your female deserts. If you believe it's unethical, I respect your argument. However, we have to remember the very little time frame these deserts have really been bred in captivity (albeit with bad results), but only account for a few generations of breedings. I think if people wish to pursue their time, money, and energy to breed them I have no problem with it. These animals would breed naturally in the wild, and I can assure you none would raise their hands to declare themselves as non-breedable pets. 

Many snake species have had captive breeding problems that took many years to figure out, and even breed out.. This OP paid his money for this snake, so obviously he cares about the safety and well being of the animal. Personally, I'm very excited for him and good luck!! Keep us posted!

----------

_angllady2_ (07-07-2013),_Anya_ (07-07-2013),_bkelley02_ (07-07-2013),_CLSpider_ (08-01-2013),crystlew123 (07-21-2013),DestinyLynette (07-07-2013),_GenePirate_ (07-07-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),Macinster (07-07-2013),_MS2_ (07-07-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-07-2013),_Pyrate81_ (07-07-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),SlitherinSisters (07-07-2013),SnakeGriffin (08-09-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## snakesRkewl

One snake dropping a clutch, if it's a desert which I'm kind of skeptical of, doesn't change the grande scheme of things.

Carry on ...

----------

_Kodieh_ (07-07-2013),_satomi325_ (07-07-2013),_Shadera_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## irishanaconda

Looks like one to me? Either way grats on the eggs. I hope it is a desert pastel!! How big was she?

----------


## behindblueyes

I am torn about this thread. The desert gene is incredibly beautiful, and to see females able to breed without complications would be an amazing turn of events. 

However, like some have mentioned already, I am worried about all of the desert females that will perish as a result of many people rushing to unlock the gene. It is bitter sweet really. On one hand, there may be hope, but on the other hand there have been many deaths and many still to come. 

I understand wanting to "unlock" the gene for scientific satisfaction. But in doing so, many animals have and will lose lives. 

With that being said, I don't work with this gene, and can't say one way or another wether or not I see desert in that female. She sure is pretty, and her pattern and clean saddles look desert like to me. Plus, with Both Amir & Major League chiming in, I believe what they say. SO, if this IS a desert gene sitting on eggs, congrats by all means. BUT, I'd keep EVERYTHING back, or at least the girls like others have said as well and see if they produce safely, and if so, I'd do it again another year just to be sure, annnnnddddd then it *might* be safe to say you've stumbled on a safe line of the desert gene. 

Congrats and good luck  :Smile:

----------


## SaintTawny

> These animals would breed naturally in the wild


And after a few shot attempts, assuming everything we've documented so far besides this clutch with Deserts is representative of the morph and its problems, those members of the species carrying this gene would die out and it would disappear from the pool. Natural Selection is quite good at taking care of "problems" like infertility. Don't get me wrong, I'll be excited for combo possibilities if we prove Desert females to be viable in some way, but it rubs me the wrong way that anyone is still putting the life of their pet on the line to try to prove it out. Yes, it's your pet to do with as you like, for the most part, but if I put the life of my dogs at risk in a similar manner to make puppies, I'd get investigated and probably shut down by the SPCA or the Humane Association, and rightly so. If this really is it, and for OP's sake I hope it is, then great, but the odds are more like that it's not, or that it's a non-repeatable fluke.

----------


## Badgemash

So do I win a baby for guessing correctly?  :Very Happy: 

(Just kidding, unless you actually want to send me one, in which case I'll pay for shipping  :Wink: )

----------


## majorleaguereptiles

> Natural Selection is quite good at taking care of "problems" like infertility.


Of course. Natural selection would probably take care of just about every morph we own in the wild.




> it rubs me the wrong way that anyone is still putting the life of their pet on the line to try to prove it out. Yes, it's your pet to do with as you like, for the most part, but if I put the life of my dogs at risk in a similar manner to make puppies, I'd get investigated and probably shut down by the SPCA or the Humane Association, and rightly so. If this really is it, and for OP's sake I hope it is, then great, but the odds are more like that it's not, or that it's a non-repeatable fluke.


I own an English Bulldog, a breed that is  still bred despite many problems. 

Again, I understand the dilemma here with people breeding females deserts if this happens to be viable... 

I'll be honest, if deserts pop out of these eggs, I won't be running to buy and breed desert females myself. I'd be more inclined to sit back and see if the offspring were viable, and if this female could do it again next year, etc... Maybe make a super desert, and then if this line proved successful, I'd then consider getting back into it. That is just my own take at the moment, however as an enthusiast, I really am excited.

----------

_alexOATH_ (07-10-2013),_Andybill_ (07-07-2013),_Anya_ (07-07-2013),Badgemash (07-07-2013),behindblueyes (07-07-2013),Crazymonkee (08-20-2013),h00blah (07-08-2013),_Raven01_ (07-07-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-07-2013),rpmoore318 (07-08-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),SnakeGriffin (08-09-2013),volcom (07-07-2013)

----------


## Seth702

My .2 cents worth. Being new and one whos still learning all the aspects in the breeding world I find it very sad to see so many negative opinions pop up so fast on this project. I hope that the OP can prove this out and that the desert project is one step closer to viable. One thing about science or projects of any kind is keeping an open and optimistic mind set. Forming such a firm "its impossible" conclusion from a single bad picture is very disappointing. I wish the best of luck to the OP and hope to see many future updates when these hatch out.

----------

crystlew123 (07-21-2013),_MS2_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## I-KandyReptiles

> My .2 cents worth. Being new and one whos still learning all the aspects in the breeding world I find it very sad to see so many negative opinions pop up so fast on this project. I hope that the OP can prove this out and that the desert project is one step closer to viable. One thing about science or projects of any kind is keeping an open and optimistic mind set. Forming such a firm "its impossible" conclusion from a single bad picture is very disappointing. I wish the best of luck to the OP and hope to see many future updates when these hatch out.


The negative opinions are based on what many people have already tried to do with the desert females. So many have died from becoming egg bound, eggs aren't vital, and more issues.

Of course people are going to be skeptical and I'm disappointed they didn't just keep this to themselves until the eggs actually hatched.

So many people are going to try to breed their desert females now and many are going to die!

----------


## Bruceweb

> The negative opinions are based on what many people have already tried to do with the desert females. So many have died from becoming egg bound, eggs aren't vital, and more issues.
> 
> Of course people are going to be skeptical and I'm disappointed they didn't just keep this to themselves until the eggs actually hatched.
> 
> So many people are going to try to breed their desert females now and many are going to die!


The issue regards deaths with Desert females is blown totaly out of context..It is crap...How many females have died due to being egg bound? a handful!, The facts are their is no evidence to support a link between any of the females that have died ..The main issue with Desert females is their apparent inability to produce fertile eggs, the vast majority have simply slugged out...a far cry from the scare mongering brigade that dictate that female deserts will die if bred.
I have been waiting for a fertile clutch to be produced, their are many morphs with issues, apparent infertility issues etc that have gone on to produce.

Please can you provide the figures on how many females have actually died due to breeding?...comments like the above, "so many people are going to breed their desert females now and many are going to die" is complete garbagge..But Hey ho!

It will be interesting to see the results of the clutch

----------

_alexOATH_ (07-10-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (07-12-2013),crystlew123 (07-21-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),_jsmorphs2_ (07-07-2013),Markus Jayne (07-07-2013),_MS2_ (07-07-2013),_Raven01_ (07-07-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),SnakeGriffin (08-09-2013),_spitzu_ (07-07-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## I-KandyReptiles

Yes, female deserts can die quite easily due to becoming eggbound, which seems quite common in this morph.

I can't give you an exact number as those who worked with the desert gene usually kept pretty hush hush.
http://www.reptilescanada.com/showth...tion-egg-bound
http://radioactivereptiles.blogspot....roven.html?m=1
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...=333250&page=2
http://www.captivebredreptileforums....rt-female.html

----------


## Bruceweb

> Yes, female deserts can die quite easily due to becoming eggbound, which seems quite common in this morph.
> 
> I can't give you an exact number as those who worked with the desert gene usually kept pretty hush hush.
> http://www.reptilescanada.com/showth...tion-egg-bound
> http://radioactivereptiles.blogspot....roven.html?m=1
> http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...=333250&page=2
> http://www.captivebredreptileforums....rt-female.html


Thanks for the links, I have read every thread out there regards the issue,  one female was found to have strictures which were found due to the keeper undertaking a ceasarian on his egg bound female..just the one but suddenly all females had strictures, their have only been a handful of females reported to have died due to being egg bound, no link has been proven to date that any of these females deaths were linked in any way to the one female that had strictures..if I am correct, one of the eggs in the female was a fully formed egg & not a infertile slug.

From the onset I have allways kept an open mind on the subject, away from the forums I have spoken to a number of breeders that feel the same.

----------

_alexOATH_ (07-10-2013),Sean : EbN (07-07-2013),_Seth702_ (07-07-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (07-07-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

I'm not trying to be an ass about this, because I know amir has been in the game far longer than me, but that snake looks like just a citrus pastel to me... 




Comparing these two pics side by side, to my untrained eye, shows that there's no desert in that snake... Once again, just my opinion, but I'm willing to bet money that deserts don't crawl out of those eggs.

----------


## interloc

> I'm not trying to be an ass about this, because I know amir has been in the game far longer than me, but that snake looks like just a citrus pastel to me... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing these two pics side by side, to my untrained eye, shows that there's no desert in that snake... Once again, just my opinion, but I'm willing to bet money that deserts don't crawl out of those eggs.


I realize you are just giving your 2 cents, so here are mine. Amir, who for one thing actually produced this snake, sees wayyy more snakes than you says this is a citrus pastel desert. Also Brant from Major League Reptiles sees literally hundreds of imports per year and has a vast collection of his own, says that this snake has desert. At least for me, that's enough proof that this snake is what it is claimed to be. 

For me, there are still a few questions. One being, does this particular snake not have whatever problem the other desert females have? Second, the babies from this snake, will the females inherit this breedable behaviour? Or is the citrus pastel changing the deserts insides, allowing the snake to produce? 

I really don't understand playing devils advocate in this situation. This could be the biggest news to come into the ball world in a long time. Why knock the Op? Also one of the most well known breeders (Amir) has his name and reputation on the line here. I realize that there will always be doubters, but why? How many deserts have you seen? How many pastels have you seen? How many pastel deserts have you seen? Also you are comparing pics which aren't always decisive. You would need to see this snake in person to get a more educated opinion. Amir and the Op have seen the snake. Lets just all wait patiently for these eggs to come out. Then we will have some answers and probly more questions.

----------

_alexOATH_ (07-10-2013),Badgemash (07-07-2013),_Bruceweb_ (07-07-2013),_CLSpider_ (08-01-2013),crystlew123 (07-21-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),_MisterKyte_ (07-12-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-07-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),volcom (07-07-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## grcforce327

> I really don't understand playing devils advocate in this situation.


You must remember,many people like seeing others get beat down. They thrive on playing "devils assvocate"!

----------

Crazymonkee (08-20-2013),_MS2_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## rlditmars

I think this is very interesting and will just take a wait and see stance. I am still just a rookie in the BP world but I myself would not have attempted to breed anything with the desert gene in it just because of what has been published on the subject. It is the OP's prerogotive to do as they wish with thier snakes, but choosing to do so, seems to walk the line between bold and foolhardy. Congrats if they have accomplished what others haven't. 

I wonder if this line of desert is just different like the variations on Ghost. Just my $0.02

----------


## jben

Congrats and I wish all the best to the OP.

----------


## Sean : EbN

> I'm not trying to be an ass about this, because I know amir has been in the game far longer than me, but that snake looks like just a citrus pastel to me... 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing these two pics side by side, to my untrained eye, shows that there's no desert in that snake... Once again, just my opinion, but I'm willing to bet money that deserts don't crawl out of those eggs.


Mike,

I'm not trying to be an ass about this either but your post compelled me to reply.  In your post you stated "to my untrained eye" I agree on this matter your eye is quite untrained.  The animal posted is a Desert.  I have owned and bred Deserts and Desert Combos (males) for many many years.  Probably as long as Amir!  I have a select few Desert combo females that I have kept back to raise slowly, observe AND BREED.  I also own Citrus Pastel, Super and Cirturs Yellowbelly animals and none of them would look as crisp and bright as this female in question.  I don't know "Cross Exotics" but I am trusting that they have represented themselves honestly here.  The neonate photo that you posted above in comparison to the one of the Citrus Pastel (a poorly overcolored photo which looks like it was taken at a reptile show with low K, HPS lights from an overhead warehouse lamp interfering) shows the animals to have very different patterns.  Let me try to explain... Notice the head on the Desert in question.  The center is an even tone of purple with no really obvious patterning.  The non-desert animal would have more of a visible pattern or at least not so even of a tone.  Also the cleanliness of the pattern on the Desert with less "keyhole" alien eye stuff going on and a more crisp definition of lines.  

On the funny side, we are all artists (an unconventional form of art but artists nonetheless) and sometimes I feel like a painter trying to explain art to someone.  Maybe what our TRAINED eyes see is just something that comes from years of understanding our canvas.  Please don't label something based on your untrained opinion.  Amir is a reputable professional and I really must side with the OP here.  

*Congrats Cross Exotics!  You've given me a glimmer of hope!*

----------

_brock lesser_ (07-07-2013),h00blah (07-08-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013),xtian228 (07-09-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

Well I say "untrained eye" because i'm not familiar with the desert morph. I'm not a TOTAL noob though, so i think completely disregarding my opinion and saying that i'm wrong just bc Amir and Brant say so is kinda unfair. 

I'm willing to bet a $50 donation to BP.net that no desert babies come out of that clutch. Any desert babies hatch and i'll have Judy comment here to confirm I made the donation. I already said I respect all these veterans opinions, so I think you should respect mine too. I'm not saying the snake IS NOT a desert citrus pastel 100% (maybe i didnt make that clear), I'm just saying I don't see it and am willing to bet it isn't. 

No harm no foul, we're all just sharing our opinions...  :Good Job:

----------

Jonas (07-07-2013)

----------


## RobertVDK

It'll be interesting to see what comes out of the eggs, that's for sure. I also feel bad that a high number of female deserts will undoubtedly be put at risk next season....lets hope people sit back, breathe, and wait to see what's really going on here before doing so.  :Please:

----------

Badgemash (07-07-2013)

----------


## Sean : EbN

> Well I say "untrained eye" because i'm not familiar with the desert morph. I'm not a TOTAL noob though, so i think completely disregarding my opinion and saying that i'm wrong just bc Amir and Brant say so is kinda unfair. 
> 
> I'm willing to bet a $50 donation to BP.net that no desert babies come out of that clutch. Any desert babies hatch and i'll have Judy comment here to confirm I made the donation. I already said I respect all these veterans opinions, so I think you should respect mine too. I'm not saying the snake IS NOT a desert citrus pastel 100% (maybe i didnt make that clear), I'm just saying I don't see it and am willing to bet it isn't. 
> 
> No harm no foul, we're all just sharing our opinions...


I'm not trying to be offensive but I would like to say that I think you are wrong based not only on Amir and Brant but also my own professional opinion.  A $50 donation to BP.net is a nice gift so I'm sure that the admins will be happy for your generosity but the ONLY way you'll be saving your cash is if the OP misses the 50% odds of Deserts (which is possible regardless of the number of eggs produced)  :Smile:

----------

_jben_ (07-07-2013),MarkS (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## bxjoon

So now we have 3 of the best in the game pretty much confirming the genes of this animal which includes the breeder himself. So as far as the genetics of this snake goes, I am convinced that it has desert in it. Now we wait...

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## MS2

> One snake dropping a clutch, if it's a desert which I'm kind of skeptical of, doesn't change the grande scheme of things.
> 
> Carry on ...


Here come negative nancy to the party!

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## SaintTawny

> Of course. Natural selection would probably take care of just about every morph we own in the wild.
> I own an English Bulldog, a breed that is  still bred despite many problems.


English Bulldogs are delivered by Cesarean. If they arent, and I know someone who had their girl give natural birth, she was so badly injured during labor that she's no longer capable of breeding. If people pursue surgical removal of eggs from their ball pythons to prevent their girls from getting eggbound, that's one thing. It's another entirely to treat your pet's life and wellbeing like a crapshoot. I'm very glad this turned out well for OP, I would not have done it, and I suspect that we won't be seeing desert babies from that clutch. As I said before, whatever genes are at play here, I hope all the babies are healthy. I mean no ill-will when I suggest that I just don't believe this is the time it gets proven.





> I really don't understand playing devils advocate in this situation. This could be the biggest news to come into the ball world in a long time. Why knock the Op? Also one of the most well known breeders (Amir) has his name and reputation on the line here. I realize that there will always be doubters, but why?


Nobody who has posted so far has been insulting to anyone else, at least not that I can see. Playing the devil's advocate is not the same thing as voicing genuine disagreement, and OP should understand that when I say I don't see desert, it's not an insult, it's an attempt to help illuminate the situation. Assume that I'm right for a minute. All of these eggs go to term and nothing that comes out is desert in any remote way. If OP hadn't considered that Amir might have made a perfectly honest mistake when labeling his girl, there could be some genuine confusion. It's not even meant to insult Amir, because be real, mistakes happen. I'm sure if somehow this female wasn't really a desert, Amir would do right by OP and work out some agreement to make them both happy. 

Threads that consist of nothing but "subbed" and "Congrats!" are kind of boring anyway, right? We're all here to discuss and learn, so don't squash the discussion by reading insults where none were intended.

----------

_Coleslaw007_ (07-07-2013),_satomi325_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> English Bulldogs are delivered by Cesarean. If they arent, and I know someone who had their girl give natural birth, she was so badly injured during labor that she's no longer capable of breeding.


And this right here is why these dogs should not be bred anymore, it says something if an animal has become such a mutant that it cant even deliver its young itself, its sick, immoral and unethical to continue to breed this way.  I suppose the same could be said with the desert gene, if its at the point where they have to have surgery to get eggs.  Now I don't necessarily know about that, all I know is what is continually spread that they are all infertile or eggbound, whether thats true or not, I do not know.

----------

_Coleslaw007_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## MarkS

One thing I haven't seen asked yet (unless I just missed it) is where does Amir's line of deserts originate from? I'm not sure how many there are, but I understand there are several lines of deserts all originating from separate wild caught founders. Is that correct?

----------

_brock lesser_ (07-07-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (07-07-2013),Murse (07-07-2013),_rlditmars_ (07-07-2013),Sean : EbN (07-07-2013)

----------


## Sean : EbN

> One thing I haven't seen asked yet (unless I just missed it) is where does Amir's line of deserts originate from? I'm not sure how many there are, but I understand there are several lines of deserts all originating from separate wild caught founders. Is that correct?


Hello old friend  :Wink: 

There are two main lines of Desert, the ProExotics and Pete Kahl lines.  The ProE line is typically a lot cleaner and brighter than the Pete Kahl line but this isn't always true.  Personally I've worked with the Pete Kahl line for many years and I have produced some stellar animals from it.  I still admit that generally the ProE line is more attractive.  I too would like to know what line of Desert, Amir is working (perhaps both but I just sent him a text but I don't know how long until I get a response)

Here are VERY ACCURATE photos of three different Pastel Deserts that we have produced in the past from the Pete Kahl line...

----------

MarkS (07-07-2013),Murse (07-07-2013),rabernet (07-07-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Peoples

Congrats on the clutch excited to see what comes out. Despite all those hounding you as to why you bred her, i say you're making great progress with the gene. We all take risk breeding every year. Congrats again.

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-07-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),Sean : EbN (07-07-2013),ZiggysMom (08-03-2013)

----------


## Markus Jayne

> Hello old friend 
> 
> There are two main lines of Desert, the ProExotics and Pete Kahl lines.  The ProE line is typically a lot cleaner and brighter than the Pete Kahl line but this isn't always true.  Personally I've worked with the Pete Kahl line for many years and I have produced some stellar animals from it.  I still admit that generally the ProE line is more attractive.  I too would like to know what line of Desert, Amir is working (perhaps both but I just sent him a text but I don't know how long until I get a response)
> 
> Here are VERY ACCURATE photos of three different Pastel Deserts that we have produced in the past from the Pete Kahl line...


Hey Sean! You never disappoint with your posts. Always enlightened by them. Correct me if I am wrong but the Pro Exotics line was originally the Stan Chiras line that Pro Exotics bought out. I obtained my first desert male that was an offspring of a male that came directly from Stan. My second male came from the Kahl line. These represent the only 2 lines I am aware of unless Amir, who is known for obtaining imported stock, has a new line of deserts. I have not caught wind of this so I doubt this is the case.

In regards to other opinions (and I do respect most of them), not breeding desert crosses would have been very short sighted. The world was flat...remember?  :Wag of the finger: 

I applaud the original poster and I am confident that the snake in question is a citrus pastel desert.

----------

bads15 (07-07-2013),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (07-12-2013),_Bruceweb_ (07-07-2013),dgring (01-13-2014),_jben_ (07-07-2013),Katrinawasserman (07-15-2013),_liv_ (07-07-2013),_Raven01_ (07-07-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),TJsBalls (08-11-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

> I'm not trying to be offensive but I would like to say that I think you are wrong based not only on Amir and Brant but also my own professional opinion.  A $50 donation to BP.net is a nice gift so I'm sure that the admins will be happy for your generosity but the ONLY way you'll be saving your cash is if the OP misses the 50% odds of Deserts (which is possible regardless of the number of eggs produced)


There's like a 1% chance of that happening if she does carry the desert gene. So if she's a desert like you say she is, we more than likely (99%ish chance) will see at least one snake hatch with the desert gene in it. 

I'm not trying to come off as cocky. If i'm proven wrong i'll have no problem donating the money (that gets me like a silver membership, right...?) and i'll come here and admit I was wrong. 

I can't wait until september.  :Wink:

----------

Jonas (07-07-2013)

----------


## Freakie_frog

The idea that we have got all of the in's and outs of reptile genetics figured out is both arrogant and dumb. The idea that there is a female Desert out there that has laid viable eggs really isn't all that hard to believe. I don't know if this is the start of something wonderful for the morph or just a strike of lightening. But even in other animals we see the impossible happen from time to time like female mules giving birth and even hybrids. It'll will be interesting to see if this is a onetime deal with this female or if she'll have problems later.. Either way till we know for sure there is no reason to jump to any conclusions.

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-07-2013),Badgemash (07-07-2013),_brock lesser_ (07-07-2013),_C&H Exotic Morphs_ (07-07-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-07-2013),Sean : EbN (07-07-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Royal Hijinx

> The idea that we have got all of the in's and outs of reptile genetics figured out is both arrogant and dumb. The idea that there is a female Desert out there that has laid viable eggs really isn't all that hard to believe. I don't know if this is the start of something wonderful for the morph or just a strike of lightening. But even in other animals we see the impossible happen from time to time like female mules giving birth and even hybrids. It'll will be interesting to see if this is a onetime deal with this female or if she'll have problems later.. Either way till we know for sure there is no reason to jump to any conclusions.


I fully agree with this.

I think the only real issue I have here is that, if I were the OP, I would have waited until I had viable hatchlings to make an announcement.  Less chance of this turning into a Al Capone's Vault kinda thing.

Also, the super hyped, wait till tomorrow, start to the thread was a bit much... but hey to each his own on that one.

----------

_brock lesser_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## kylefrost

First off- congrats on the clutch! I really hope that she is in fact a Desert. This may seem off the wall but when I saw the pic of your female(on FB from a Reptile Report post), my first thought was Pastel Enchi. Not saying that it is, but just wanted to mention what I think is a possibility worth considering. Is it possible that the father of your girl was a low expression Tiger? There were a lot of those things early on, and it seemed like sometimes people had trouble telling certain Tigers and Deserts apart. Might sound crazy but it would definitely explain the 6 perfect eggs :Weirdface: 

Again, I hope I'm wrong. I have never had a Desert and haven't even seen a Pastel Desert in person. The next 60 days will feel like forever, I can promise you that!

----------


## Andybill

I like to keep a very realistic stance on nearly everything I see or read or hear but as I read through this thread I cant help but be hopeful for this to work out yet there is still so much to be done from here. Those eggs must first make it full term. Fingers crossed for the OP and the future of this project.

----------


## Kodieh

> So now we have 3 of the best in the game pretty much confirming the genes of this animal which includes the breeder himself. So as far as the genetics of this snake goes, I am convinced that it has desert in it. Now we wait...


This is why i hope either the snake dies to prove a point or its not desert. Taking people's opinion. Cause they have a lot of money invested irritates the absolute crap out of me.

Call me a bad person, lol. I just don't think it's a desert. And if it happens to be, that's gotta be one of the worst looking pastels. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## grcforce327

> If i'm proven wrong i'll have no problem donating the money (that gets me like a silver membership, right...?)


Didn't know "donation" and "paid membership" were one and the same! Why don't you do both? :Headbang:

----------

Badgemash (07-07-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Markus Jayne

> There's like a 1% chance of that happening if she does carry the desert gene. So if she's a desert like you say she is, we more than likely (99%ish chance) will see at least one snake hatch with the desert gene in it. 
> 
> I'm not trying to come off as cocky. If i'm proven wrong i'll have no problem donating the money (that gets me like a silver membership, right...?) and i'll come here and admit I was wrong. 
> 
> I can't wait until september.


A 1% chance? Really???  :Confused:

----------

_alexOATH_ (07-10-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),Sean : EbN (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),_West Coast Jungle_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## Herpenthusiast3

> This is why i hope either the snake dies to prove a point or its not desert. Taking people's opinion. Cause they have a lot of money invested irritates the absolute crap out of me.
> 
> Call me a bad person, lol. I just don't think it's a desert. And if it happens to be, that's gotta be one of the worst looking pastels. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


Wow! Harsh. You "HOPE" the animals dies so you can prove a point?! Even if the pairing didn't prove out why would you hope that an animal perishes to prove your point?! And then that pessimistic statement that the snake is one of the worst pastels you have ever seen?!.... Hmmmm... Better idea!!!! Snag some popcorn sit back and wait for the outcome to either talk crap or hold your tongue. Bashing the OP in what seems like an interesting thread makes for a bad read. :/

----------

caughdl (07-07-2013),h00blah (07-08-2013),_JMinILM_ (07-07-2013),_Marrissa_ (07-07-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013),sho220 (08-10-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),TJsBalls (08-11-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## JMinILM

> A 1% chance? Really???


Technically it's a 1.56% chance.

With 6 eggs that have one parent that has the desert gene. Each egg has a 50% chance of having the desert gene.

If they all hatch the odds for the clutch are this:

1.56% chance of zero desert babies.
9.38% chance of one desert baby.
23.44% chance of two desert babies.
31.25% chance of three desert babies.
23.44% chance of four desert babies.
9.38% chance of five desert babies.
1.56% chance of six desert babies.

----------

behindblueyes (07-07-2013),_BHReptiles_ (07-07-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (07-07-2013),hig (07-07-2013),MarkS (07-07-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> Wow! Harsh. You "HOPE" the animals dies so you can prove a point?! Even if the pairing didn't prove out why would you hope that an animal perishes to prove your point?! And then that pessimistic statement that the snake is one of the worst pastels you have ever seen?!.... Hmmmm... Better idea!!!! Snag some popcorn sit back and wait for the outcome to either talk crap or hold your tongue. Bashing the OP in what seems like an interesting thread makes for a bad read. :/


Not harsh, if you want to be a sheep because people who have a lot of money in this come in a say crap then by all means.

I'll think for myself, however. And I won't compromise my opinion because these highly invested people say I'm wrong. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## JMinILM

> This is why i hope either the snake dies to prove a point or its not desert.


I hope you mistyped this sentence. You don't really want the snake to die do you?

----------


## Kodieh

> I hope you mistyped this sentence. You don't really want the snake to die do you?


Its bad logic, at this point, since the snake has passed the dying because of breeding point. However, I stand by it still. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## Mike41793

> Didn't know "donation" and "paid membership" were one and the same! Why don't you do both?


Oh no, i'll do both. I didn't know they were different. I assumed paid membership was just what you got when you donated money. Poor choice of words on my part

----------


## Sean : EbN

> Not harsh, if you want to be a sheep because people who have a lot of money in this come in a say crap then by all means.
> 
> I'll think for myself, however. And I won't compromise my opinion because these highly invested people say I'm wrong. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


Your crude and amateur opinion is upsetting!  If you think I am commenting because of my financial stance in the Desert project, you are boldly mistaken!  Since the news of Desert females being "pet-only quality" I have continued turn my ORIGINAL investment over EVERY YEAR!  Yes I'm saying that the amount of money that my company spent on Deserts has been profitable EVERY YEAR including this year when Desert animals were $100-500 each.

You're ignorant for writing what you have since you don't understand the gene or what it looks like.  To say that you wish failure so that our "company line" is cut is foolish.  You continue to be WRONG  :Wag of the finger:

----------

_alexOATH_ (07-10-2013),Murse (07-07-2013),rabernet (07-07-2013),_Raven01_ (07-07-2013),sho220 (08-10-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## MarkS

> Hello old friend 
> 
> There are two main lines of Desert, the ProExotics and Pete Kahl lines.  The ProE line is typically a lot cleaner and brighter than the Pete Kahl line but this isn't always true.  Personally I've worked with the Pete Kahl line for many years and I have produced some stellar animals from it.  I still admit that generally the ProE line is more attractive.  I too would like to know what line of Desert, Amir is working (perhaps both but I just sent him a text but I don't know how long until I get a response)
> 
> Here are VERY ACCURATE photos of three different Pastel Deserts that we have produced in the past from the Pete Kahl line...


Hey Sean good to see you again too, it's been a while.  Thanks for posting those pictures, that's precisely why I'm excited about this development.  No, that doesn't mean I going to go out and buy a bunch of desert females just so I can breed them, that would be foolish. But it does give me hope for the future and I'm anxiously awaiting to see what happens.

----------


## Mike41793

> A 1% chance? Really???


Yep. Look at what Jay M. said. I was on break at work and responding fast so I didn't have time to type out the math. So basically, if that female has desert in her, we can say with confidence there's like a 98.5% chance we'll see at least one desert hatch. That was my point. Sorry, didn't mean to be confusing about it.

----------


## Sean : EbN

> Yep. Look at what Jay M. said. I was on break at work and responding fast so I didn't have time to type out the math. So basically, if that female has desert in her, we can say with confidence there's like a 98.5% chance we'll see at least one desert hatch. That was my point. Sorry, didn't mean to be confusing about it.


... and my point is that missing the 50% odds on ONE clutch is common!  It happens to me every year and as per your calculations should happen to me AT LEAST 3 times this year  :Surprised:

----------


## Mephibosheth1

@Kodieh:  Do you have any basis to substantiate YOUR claim that the three people in question are actually lying to us all and misrepresenting the hobby due to their "investment" in the success of this project??

If not, I request that you stop the mudslinging towards them; I know I personally don't want to come to a thread to see this kind of baseless accusations.  Expressing your opinion is fine, but you can do it without insinuating that others only have selfish interests in mind (especially when, after claiming that they only have their interests in mind, you show that you are no better than they are by wishing your view on the poor snake in question.)

I bid you good day

----------

_Anya_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Jake Milbradt

> 





> The neonate photo that you posted above in comparison to the one of the Citrus Pastel (a poorly overcolored photo which looks like it was taken at a reptile show with low K, HPS lights from an overhead warehouse lamp interfering) shows the animals to have very different patterns.  Let me try to explain... Notice the head on the Desert in question.  The center is an even tone of purple with no really obvious patterning.  The non-desert animal would have more of a visible pattern or at least not so even of a tone.  Also the cleanliness of the pattern on the Desert with less "keyhole" alien eye stuff going on and a more crisp definition of lines.


Sean,

I've re-read this paragraph of yours several times, and I just want to make sure I'm reading it clearly. Are you saying both of these snakes are pastel deserts? Or only the snake in the second picture?

----------


## Kodieh

> Your crude and amateur opinion is upsetting!  If you think I am commenting because of my financial stance in the Desert project, you are boldly mistaken!  Since the news of Desert females being "pet-only quality" I have continued turn my ORIGINAL investment over EVERY YEAR!  Yes I'm saying that the amount of money that my company spent on Deserts has been profitable EVERY YEAR including this year when Desert animals were $100-500 each.
> 
> You're ignorant for writing what you have since you don't understand the gene or what it looks like.  To say that you wish failure so that our "company line" is cut is foolish.  You continue to be WRONG


And this pompous attitude affirms my opinion. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## Sean : EbN

> Sean,
> 
> I've re-read this paragraph of yours several times, and I just want to make sure I'm reading it clearly. Are you saying both of these snakes are pastel deserts? Or only the snake in the second picture?


Jake,

Sorry for confusion... only the snake in the second photo is a Desert.  IF the top photo animal actually looks that good and it wasn't a poorly colored/lit photo it is a great looking Citrus Pastel but certainly not Desert.

----------


## Stewart_Reptiles

> Yep. Look at what Jay M. said. I was on break at work and responding fast so I didn't have time to type out the math. So basically, if that female has desert in her, we can say with confidence there's like a 98.5% chance we'll see at least one desert hatch. That was my point. Sorry, didn't mean to be confusing about it.


Mike how many animals have bred over the years? Never missed on odds? Ever had a clutch of normal hatching? If you never did, you are either VERY lucky or have not produced enough clutches.

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-07-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),MarkS (07-07-2013),rabernet (07-07-2013),Sean : EbN (07-07-2013)

----------


## Markus Jayne

> Yep. Look at what Jay M. said. I was on break at work and responding fast so I didn't have time to type out the math. So basically, if that female has desert in her, we can say with confidence there's like a 98.5% chance we'll see at least one desert hatch. That was my point. Sorry, didn't mean to be confusing about it.


Incredible odds really. Having said that I have had several big 10 - 12 egg clutches produce only one morph when my odds were 50% on each egg. Just now I am hatching an 8 egg clutch of pied het albino x albino and I only produced 1 albino.  :Tears:

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Sean : EbN

> And this pompous attitude affirms my opinion. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


It affirms nothing since my "pompous attitude" is stating FACT.  That FACT is that the animal IS a Pastel Desert.  Your opinion doesn't count because your opinion is WRONG.  Call me any names you'd like, wish animals dead and breeder's to fail... FACT remains that you're wrong.

----------

caughdl (07-08-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013),Murse (07-07-2013),sho220 (08-10-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## Skiploder

I heard from another person who read another forum which then was referred to by his sister in law (forgot the link) that the NSA and the IRS are behind the Great Desert Conspiracy.

I realize that without the link, my word means nothing, but trust me, I know everything there is to know about reptiles because I sit behind my computer all day and read about them from other people who sit behind their computers all day who also read about them.  Except for the porn breaks here and there, I absorbed everything there is to know about things I have no experience with.

So without knowing a thing about the gene, without owning one, without ever really breeding a snake and with only a rudimentary understanding of snake reproduction in general, it is an immutable fact that all Desert Females are programmed genetically to die when bred.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is perpetrating a scam.

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-07-2013),_alexOATH_ (07-10-2013),_Annarose15_ (07-07-2013),_Anya_ (07-07-2013),_bad-one_ (07-11-2013),Badgemash (07-07-2013),_BHReptiles_ (07-07-2013),_BlueMoonExotics_ (07-07-2013),_brock lesser_ (07-07-2013),_C&H Exotic Morphs_ (07-07-2013),_CLSpider_ (08-02-2013),_Darkbird_ (07-09-2013),_Dracoluna_ (07-07-2013),h00blah (07-08-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),_joebad976_ (07-07-2013),MarkS (07-07-2013),_Marrissa_ (07-07-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013),_MisterKyte_ (07-12-2013),_MrLang_ (07-08-2013),rabernet (07-07-2013),_Raven01_ (07-07-2013),_rlditmars_ (07-07-2013),_RobNJ_ (07-08-2013),rpmoore318 (07-08-2013),_Sama_ (07-07-2013),Sean : EbN (07-07-2013),_Seth702_ (07-07-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (07-07-2013),_TerrieL_ (07-07-2013),_TessadasExotics_ (07-13-2013),tlich (07-07-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013),Zuma22 (07-08-2013)

----------


## Aes_Sidhe

> i heard from another person who read another forum which then was referred to by his sister in law (forgot the link) that the nsa and the irs are behind the great desert conspiracy.
> 
> I realize that without the link, my word means nothing, but trust me, i know everything there is to know about reptiles because i sit behind my computer all day and read about them from other people who sit behind their computers all day who also read about them.  Except for the porn breaks here and there, i absorbed everything there is to know about things i have no experience with.
> 
> So without knowing a thing about the gene, without owning one, without ever really breeding a snake and with only a rudimentary understanding of snake reproduction in general, it is an immutable fact that all desert females are programmed genetically to die when bred.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is perpetrating a scam.


amen!

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## behindblueyes

It is upsetting to see someone with so much "good" rep on this site being so negative. Not believing in something is one thing, which I think we can all respect. 

However, hoping something will die is not the way to prove your point. This is, or should be a community based on the respect for life. This is why there is so much "negative" grease on this thread in the first place. Take money out of the picture, these are animals lives that we are talking about. People are going to do what they want, but plain out stating you hope it dies is just cruel. 

For the sake of the desert gene, I hope the eggs hatch, and we see very healthy desert babies. I also hope that the OP keeps the girls back, and tries it again. 

I also hope, that those with female deserts wait and see what plays out. Also, those with female deserts should understand that they are playing with fire, and should be ready at the drop of the hat with available finances and time to take care of the girl if complications arise. 

I restate my original end, Congratulations to the OP, and good luck.

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-07-2013),_brock lesser_ (07-07-2013),_JMinILM_ (07-07-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013),_MisterKyte_ (07-12-2013),nykea (07-08-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013),xtian228 (07-09-2013)

----------


## liv

This is pretty cool news!  :Good Job:  Good luck OP, I hope that the eggs come to term and that that beautiful gene is given a new life in our hobby  :Smile:

----------


## jsmorphs2

> Jake,
> 
> Sorry for confusion... only the snake in the second photo is a Desert.  IF the top photo animal actually looks that good and it wasn't a poorly colored/lit photo it is a great looking Citrus Pastel but certainly not Desert.


I'm also confused. Isn't the top picture the OP's girl as a baby? Sorry I don't have time to surf the whole thread again.

----------


## Jake Milbradt

> Jake,
> 
> Sorry for confusion... only the snake in the second photo is a Desert.  IF the top photo animal actually looks that good and it wasn't a poorly colored/lit photo it is a great looking Citrus Pastel but certainly not Desert.


Sean,

The snake in the first photo (the one you said is certainly not a desrt) is the animal that laid the clutch. The snake in the second photo was a pastel desert clutchmate that Amir posted. Here are the original posts from this thread with the photos in question:





> The Pastel Calico she is locked with in the picture.
> 
> 
> 
> Her younger days as requested..






> Joseph,
> Congrats on the clutch
> I remember the animal you bought and it was one of 1.3 Citrus Deserts produced from a Desert male to a Super Citrus/Pastel female
> There are 2 other girls out there so hopefully someone else can back your results in the near future.
> I looked for baby pics and this one is all I could find of a sib
> 
> People should and will have to wait till next season to breed Deserts and by then all of these questions will be answered.
> If it is of any importance, I do have 8.22 adult Deserts and Desert combos so you may not be the only one looking for answers.



And here's a thread that the OP made a while back with an updated photo of the snake that laid the clutch:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ection-Update-)

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),nykea (07-08-2013)

----------


## Jake Milbradt

Oh, and just for the record, I have no idea if that's a desert or not. lol

----------


## Mike41793

> Jake,
> 
> Sorry for confusion... only the snake in the second photo is a Desert.  IF the top photo animal actually looks that good and it wasn't a poorly colored/lit photo it is a great looking Citrus Pastel but certainly not Desert.


The one in the first photo is the OP's female "citrus pastel desert" as a baby...

EDIT: looks like we're on the same page after all, sean!  Haha :p

----------


## MarkS

> Incredible odds really. Having said that I have had several big 10 - 12 egg clutches produce only one morph when my odds were 50% on each egg. Just now I am hatching an 8 egg clutch of pied het albino x albino and I only produced 1 albino.


I feel your pain, I've got a clutch hatching now of Albino X het albino. Seven eggs, one albino.  Hmm, maybe I should demand my money back  :Wink:

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-07-2013),_JMinILM_ (07-07-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

> Mike how many animals have bred over the years? Never missed on odds? Ever had a clutch of normal hatching? If you never did, you are either VERY lucky or have not produced enough clutches.


I haven't hatched a single clutch (expecting my first one this year) I'm strictly speaking mathematically. You cannot argue with the math of it. I do realize people miss odds all the time.

EDIT: I do realize people miss odds all the time. You guys are pulling out these examples but out of ALL the clutches you've hatched, im sure the odds were overall better for you all.

----------


## Mephibosheth1

Unfortunately math and the real world don't always jive; theoretical versus actual yield \o/

----------


## Mike41793

> Unfortunately math and the real world don't always jive; theoretical versus actual yield \o/


No, I get that. I'm just trying to throw out the odds early on so when that female lays no deserts everyone is gunna try and say "oh well they just missed the odds". Those are some pretty heavy odds to argue against though. :p

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Sean : EbN

Ok... I'm not going to quote someone in this post just trying to get it straight with MY opinion...

*This animal is confusing* I NOW REALIZE that this is the snake in the OP that has laid the eggs.  There are a few things about this snake that make me a bit concerned... The pattern being heavily keyholed.  The color on the sides where the yellow of the sides goes into the dorsal, it is a bit dirty and on a Desert that is so small it should be very clean.  Lastly the eye stripe at the back of the head is blurry whereas on most Deserts the eye stripe is very defined, looks like it was drawn on with a pencil.  Again I thought the OTHER photo was the OP's snake as a hatchling not this one.  *To say that this animal is a Desert is tough!*



*This is definitely a Pastel Desert!* It looks soft and crisp at the same time with not that much keyholeing in the pattern.  This looks like the link photos I posted a couple of pages ago. ALSO I thought that this was a photo of the OP exact female.  I didn't bother to match up the patterns since I have been referring to this photo this whole time.  I now realize that this was a sibling to the OP's female.



*This animal is one of our DEFINITE Pastel Deserts* Note the stuff I mentioned above... Pattern, transitional side color and eye stripe.


*We can't say for sure until it's eggs hatch*  LMAO Mike... what a whirlwind of confusion!  I still have my same strong feelings about the other guy saying that I chimed in as part of the "desert market support" because that's BS  I am happy to eat a little crap over the confusion but again... I didn't think the snake in the top photo was the OP animal but an animal that was being thought of as a Citrus Pastel.  Thank you to Jake for trying to clear up his confusion of my post about the photos because it helped me find my own accidental confusion of the photos.

If any of that made any sense (I hope it did)

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),nykea (07-08-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),_SnowShredder_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

Sean, 

No need to eat crap over anything. Simple misunderstanding. I'm happy you can see what I was saying now though. I read what you said about deserts and really analyzed it, since like i said, i don't have experience with the gene. But when i was comparing the two snakes side by side, it wasn't adding up. From what the OP said, these two snakes are siblings from the same clutch that amir hatched:



The first one, I agree, DOES have desert in it. The second one, the OP's snake, just looks like a citrus pastel to me. Especially for being clutchmates, they look very different to me. This is why I asked the OP for baby pics. I'm wondering if Brant misunderstood the same thing and if his opinion would change?

----------

_brock lesser_ (07-07-2013),_satomi325_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Family Reptiles

This is Mike from Family Reptiles here in Lakeland, FL.  Congratulations on your Desert clutch.  Scott and Elizabeth, the owners of Family Reptiles, also have a viable clutch of eggs from a Desert female currently in the incubator and it is due to pip in a couple weeks.  We also know of a few other breeders that have viable desert clutches and we are all trying to compare notes as to what factors may have been involved in the success.  If you are willing, Scott would love to chat.

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-07-2013),heylookitsjon (07-08-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013),ZiggysMom (08-03-2013)

----------


## Sean : EbN

> Sean, 
> 
> No need to eat crap over anything. Simple misunderstanding. I'm happy you can see what I was saying now though. I read what you said about deserts and really analyzed it, since like i said, i don't have experience with the gene. But when i was comparing the two snakes side by side, it wasn't adding up. From what the OP said, these two snakes are siblings from the same clutch that amir hatched:
> 
> 
> 
> The first one, I agree, DOES have desert in it. The second one, the OP's snake, just looks like a citrus pastel to me. Especially for being clutchmates, they look very different to me. This is why I asked the OP for baby pics. I'm wondering if Brant misunderstood the same thing and if his opinion would change?


Mike... thanks I just ate lunch and I don't think I have room in my stomach for anything else LOL  I see what you were saying and now it all makes sense.  I wonder if Brant feels the same way too.  I can't say for certain that it isn't but definitely not a slam dunk

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

So, some have converted to thinking this is not a desert? 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## SaintTawny

> I'm also confused. Isn't the top picture the OP's girl as a baby? Sorry I don't have time to surf the whole thread again.


Clarification: The following three pictures are all of the same snake, the "Citrus Pastel Desert" that laid this clutch we're all talking about. Color coded circles highlight identifying features throughout the three pictures. 


^OP's baby picture



^Recent picture of the same "Citrus Pastel Desert" from another thread by OP



^Same snake, on eggs.


Personally, I don't see Desert in the above snake. Whether or not you do, you can make up your own mind based on the available pictures, but if you think the first one is a plain Citrus you have to concede that the snake on the eggs is a plain Citrus. The inverse is also true.

----------

_Coleslaw007_ (07-07-2013),_Kodieh_ (07-07-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-07-2013),_satomi325_ (07-07-2013),_SnowShredder_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## PitOnTheProwl

> The pattern being heavily keyholed.  The color on the sides where the yellow of the sides goes into the dorsal, it is a bit dirty and on a Desert that is so small it should be very clean.  Lastly the eye stripe at the back of the head is blurry whereas on most Deserts the eye stripe is very defined, looks like it was drawn on with a pencil.  Again I thought the OTHER photo was the OP's snake as a hatchling not this one.


I wish WOBP utilized their option and listed descriptions this detailed, it would really help some of us that are not into certain morphs. 
(especially all the "new" ones that look normal to me  :Wink:  )

I am not really into the deserts and only know what I have heard and read about them. I do know this could be HUGE of our hobby and I am interested in seeing the outcome of the clutch.

I will be a little saddened should we have to lock this thread because some people cannot control themselves during a debate and have to resort to name calling and mudslinging. Lets leave that for our government officials that suck our tax dollars dry.  :Cool:

----------

Badgemash (07-07-2013),_JMinILM_ (07-07-2013),MarkS (07-07-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## MarkS

> : I do realize people miss odds all the time. You guys are pulling out these examples but out of ALL the clutches you've hatched, im sure the odds were overall better for you all.


This is true, 'the odds' really only work out on a large sample size, 6 or 7 eggs is really too small to be statistically significant.  Which is why NOT producing any morphs in a clutch this size would not be definitive proof of either it's existence or lack thereof

----------


## Robyn@SYR

> This is Mike from Family Reptiles here in Lakeland, FL.  Congratulations on your Desert clutch.  Scott and Elizabeth, the owners of Family Reptiles, also have a viable clutch of eggs from a Desert female currently in the incubator and it is due to pip in a couple weeks.  We also know of a few other breeders that have viable desert clutches and we are all trying to compare notes as to what factors may have been involved in the success.  If you are willing, Scott would love to chat.


Whoa. Wow. Such terrific news. We lost a number of gravid animals in our facility fire, I can live vicariously through others on this journey. Best of luck to all.

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

> This is true, 'the odds' really only work out on a large sample size, 6 or 7 eggs is really too small to be statistically significant.  Which is why NOT producing any morphs in a clutch this size would not be definitive proof of either it's existence or lack thereof


very true. Didn't think about it in reverse to what I was saying haha

----------


## Mike41793

> I will be a little saddened should we have to lock this thread because some people cannot control themselves during a debate and have to resort to name calling and mudslinging. Lets leave that for our government officials that suck our tax dollars dry.


Behaving myself and double checking what I type just like you taught me papa bear.  :Wink:  :p

----------


## hig

I wish the OP took pics to document this, then made the post AFTER the eggs hatch!  If no deserts in the clutch, try again next year.  The snake didn't look desert to me, and comparing pics of confirmed deserts, I still feel the same way.  There is no way to say for sure the snake in question is a citrus desert until proving out the genetics.  It is irresponsible to say otherwise.  I don't know the "big names" that have been thrown around, but I take with a grain of salt the opinion of someone who has 8.22 snakes of this combo saying the snake in question is a viable citrus desert.  That is simple buyer beware stuff.

OP:  Best of luck!  Words to the wise, next time you discover gold: prove it is gold then capitalize on it, don't blab to every man and his dog where you found a piece of yellow rock!  Your business model, wife and kids will thank you for it.

----------

Markus Jayne (07-07-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),Sean : EbN (07-07-2013)

----------


## Sean : EbN

> So, some have converted to thinking this is not a desert? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


I was under the impression that we were arguing over this snake...


I thought the OP snake was this animal.  You still shouldn't think that everyone supporting a claim is doing so for profitable gain.  If that was so I wouldn't have said half the things I said about the animal in the other photos (i.e. talking about distinct identifying points) When one of the other posters asked me to be clear about which animals I said wasn't a Desert is when I realized that I had misunderstood one of the posts from pages ago.  Believe it or not there are some people who want to desperately see the Desert gene clear of all the bad stuff but for the betterment of the morph not profitability.  

I apologize for calling you ignorant unless you have a problem with the animal in this ^^^^ photo being a Desert since it was the one I was talking about all along.   :Rolleyes2:

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Coopers Constrictors

There is so much hidden stuff with the Citrus line that we all still have yet to figure out. I bet the Citrus in her had something to do with it.

If Amir says it's a Citrus Desert, then it's a Citrus Desert. 

Congrats. This is huge.

Sorry if I missed it, but what temps were you keeping her at?

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## joebad976

> This is Mike from Family Reptiles here in Lakeland, FL.  Congratulations on your Desert clutch.  Scott and Elizabeth, the owners of Family Reptiles, also have a viable clutch of eggs from a Desert female currently in the incubator and it is due to pip in a couple weeks.  We also know of a few other breeders that have viable desert clutches and we are all trying to compare notes as to what factors may have been involved in the success.  If you are willing, Scott would love to chat.


Whoa....Now there are more viable clutches. Maybe things are turning around for the desert gene. I agree the OP probably should have waited for the clutch to hatch before posting but hey this is exciting stuff. I think the baby pics were taken in crappy lighting and that makes the snake look more pastelish (new word  :Weirdface: ). I have never seen a 1600gram female Citrus Pastel Desert so I am not going to pass judgement until the clutch hatches but I do have my fingers crossed that baby deserts will appear in that clutch. 

I hope the other breeders with viable clutches are taking good notes to pass on to the rest of the community. Very interesting stuff.

----------


## Mephibosheth1

Now, if they choose to sit on the notes after they get good useful data, THEN I could see that there was a vast Desert Gene Conspiracy under way.

Pretty cool; I feel like I'm watching history being written here....

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

> There is so much hidden stuff with the Citrus line that we all still have yet to figure out. I bet the Citrus in her had something to do with it.
> 
> If Amir says it's a Citrus Desert, then it's a Citrus Desert. 
> 
> Congrats. This is huge.
> 
> Sorry if I missed it, but what temps were you keeping her at?


Amir never makes mistakes?

----------


## Jake Milbradt

> I wish the OP took pics to document this, then made the post AFTER the eggs hatch!  If no deserts in the clutch, try again next year.  The snake didn't look desert to me, and comparing pics of confirmed deserts, I still feel the same way.  There is no way to say for sure the snake in question is a citrus desert until proving out the genetics.  It is irresponsible to say otherwise.  I don't know the "big names" that have been thrown around, but I take with a grain of salt the opinion of someone who has 8.22 snakes of this combo saying the snake in question is a viable citrus desert.  That is simple buyer beware stuff.
> 
> OP:  Best of luck!  Words to the wise, next time you discover gold: prove it is gold then capitalize on it, don't blab to every man and his dog where you found a piece of yellow rock!  Your business model, wife and kids will thank you for it.


The OP paid $1900 for this snake. I doubt he's EVER questioned whether or not it's truly a pastel desert.

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> Amir never makes mistakes?


EXACTLY. 

I'll take my silent solace in that I'm not a sheep following big names. 
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## hig

> The OP paid $1900 for this snake. I doubt he's EVER questioned whether or not it's truly a pastel desert.


For sure... which further supports my gold analogy.  Prove it out before telling the whole town theres gold in them thair hills!

----------

_JMinILM_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## mapleman

> The OP paid $1900 for this snake. I doubt he's EVER questioned whether or not it's truly a pastel desert.


Yeah and I bet he's going to be PISSED if that $1900 female turns out to be a nice pastel  :Tears:

----------

_Kodieh_ (07-07-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## EmberBall

I do not have a rooting interest.  I would love for a dozen or more female Deserts to lay viable eggs and come out the other side happy and healthy.  I think the Desert is a cool looking baby, and LOVE every Desert cross I have seen.  

I do not think it is a Desert female on the eggs.  I looked at both the baby picture of the female on the eggs and the baby picture of the known Pastel Desert, and to me, the Pastel Desert is obviously a Pastel Desert.  The baby pic of the female on the eggs is either an odd Desert Pastel, meaning not looking like most Desert Pastel, or, it simply has no Desert gene in it.  

I think before everyone gets excited (might be too late for that), people should wait and see what hatches.  I just hope that people do not rush out and breed their Desert females in hopes of replicating this clutch, until we see Desert babies.  I think Amir has a good enough reputation that he will tell us if he made a mistake.  I just hope this does not turn into a "Ball Python Cover Up" scenario, and that everyone is honest and open about the results.  

Dave

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),_Royal Hijinx_ (07-07-2013),_satomi325_ (07-07-2013),_Shadera_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## Sean : EbN

> Yeah and I bet he's going to be PISSED if that $1900 female turns out to be a nice pastel


If this does prove out to be not Desert then I'm sure Amir will take care of that.  Mistakes can occur, true professionalism is how you take care of the mistakes  :Smile:

----------

_alexOATH_ (07-10-2013),_Annarose15_ (07-07-2013),Badgemash (07-07-2013),_C&H Exotic Morphs_ (07-07-2013),Freakie_frog (07-07-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),_Kodieh_ (07-07-2013),_liv_ (07-11-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## behindblueyes

I find it interesting that we are still debating wether or not the snake in this post is desert or not, when someone else has come out of the woodworks describing a viable female desert clutch, as well as other people he knows with eggs incubating. I want to know more about those!

There may be many keeping these clutches and breedings a secret as it has been considered so taboo. I hope all of these supposed viable desert female clutches have been properly documented!! This could be an interesting year if all of this is true. 



I also came across this quote today, it was posted by someone I consider to be very wise. 

"Quarreling doesn't make an ignorant a wise. It's just proving the ignorance." 

I thought it was fitting for this forum, as well as many other threads I've seen. 

Again, I do not have the desert gene, and do not know how it really works. So take what I say with a grain of salt if you'd like. All I know is what I've been told, and if lives are in jeopardy, those with these females should be very careful in what they choose to do, and how they do it. 

Good luck!

----------

Badgemash (07-07-2013),_BlueMoonExotics_ (07-07-2013),_CLSpider_ (08-02-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

> I find it interesting that we are still debating wether or not the snake in this post is desert or not, when someone else has come out of the woodworks describing a viable female desert clutch, as well as other people he knows with eggs incubating. I want to know more about those!


Maybe it's because that's that users very first post on here and they didn't post ANY proof of it... I'd like to hear more about that too, i don't think it'd be fair to clog up this thread with that though. You can say whatever you want online, but if you don't back it up with proof then no ones gunna take you very seriously. 
I made out with kate upton! <--- see, anyone can believe that if they want to!  :Wink:

----------

behindblueyes (07-07-2013)

----------


## majorleaguereptiles

> If this does prove out to be not Desert then I'm sure Amir will take care of that.  Mistakes can occur, true professionalism is how you take care of the mistakes


Exactly, Amir would take care of it. If you read my original opinion, the fact this could be a citrus pastel that had incubation effect was a possibility, but seeing the adult on eggs, it definitely looked pastel desert to me. After seeing these baby pics, I'm a little more on the fence and can see that maybe this female just had a little developmental action going on and is an extreme looking pastel. 

For the record, I own no deserts, not sure where the whole investment, money aspect attack came from, but I'm still excited simply because I'm a fan of ball pythons and pretty much everyones projects in the reptile world. I hope we can just all relax a little bit. The success of a desert female laying eggs will do nothing financially for the project. For me, it would simply a cool reptile accomplishment.

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-07-2013),_Cross Exotics_ (07-07-2013),_elbee_ (07-07-2013),h00blah (07-08-2013),_jben_ (07-07-2013),_JMinILM_ (07-07-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-07-2013),_RobNJ_ (07-08-2013),_Royal Hijinx_ (07-07-2013),SlitherinSisters (07-07-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (07-07-2013)

----------


## pythnsnkmn

I am glad I just keep ball pythons for fun and my family. I am actually picking up a desert in the near future and if I produce females I will hold them back, not because of the money aspect, but because I care about my animals and wouldn't want someone risking their lives to try and make money. Good luck on the clutch and I hope it proves out to be desert.

----------


## SaintTawny

> This is Mike from Family Reptiles here in Lakeland, FL.  Congratulations on your Desert clutch.  Scott and Elizabeth, the owners of Family Reptiles, also have a viable clutch of eggs from a Desert female currently in the incubator and it is due to pip in a couple weeks.  We also know of a few other breeders that have viable desert clutches and we are all trying to compare notes as to what factors may have been involved in the success.  If you are willing, Scott would love to chat.


Pics or it (definitely) didn't happen.

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## pythnsnkmn

> Pics or it (definitely) didn't happen.


This is true :Wag of the finger:

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## behindblueyes

> Maybe it's because that's that users very first post on here and they didn't post ANY proof of it... I'd like to hear more about that too, i don't think it'd be fair to clog up this thread with that though. You can say whatever you want online, but if you don't back it up with proof then no ones gunna take you very seriously. 
> I made out with kate upton! <--- see, anyone can believe that if they want to!



Very true!! I can't agree more  :Smile:  I totally believe you made out with kate upton. hehe.

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> For the record, I own no deserts, not sure where the whole investment, money aspect attack came from, but I'm still excited simply because I'm a fan of ball pythons and pretty much everyones projects in the reptile world. I hope we can just all relax a little bit. The success of a desert female laying eggs will do nothing financially for the project. For me, it would simply a cool reptile accomplishment.





> So now we have 3 of the best in the game pretty much confirming the genes of this animal which includes the breeder himself. So as far as the genetics of this snake goes, I am convinced that it has desert in it. Now we wait...


Since you said you didn't know, I'll bring it to the most recent page. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## majorleaguereptiles

> Since you said you didn't know, I'll bring it to the most recent page. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


I'm confused. How do these comments even related? 

My opinion confirms nothing. Like I said, and have said many times, ball pythons can take an appearance outside their genetics. In cases where developmental and incubation can brighten a mutation and often can, as could be the case here, determining genetics can be very difficult without the solid base/clutch results to compare, etc.. I can easily see how this could have been mistaken for a pastel desert, and I mentioned I would have sold it as one based upon how she looks on eggs...

I'm still hopeful she is a desert. Guess we will have to wait and see..

----------

h00blah (07-08-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

I'll make sure to make a post on this first,  before people get butt hurt.

I'm not specifically stating Amir is lying, a bad breeder, or anything of the sort. We are all human, and I won't just take anyone's word on genetics when something isn't supposed to happen unless the gene is mapped and you've got a genetics degree. We're all just hobbyists here and I'm gonna treat you reading this post, and everyone else, the same way. 

I was taught to question everything, that's just me. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## Murse

http://www.familyreptiles.com/family...m/Welcome.html

???

----------


## chago11

Anyone want to post pics of their 1600 gram plus pastel deserts?

----------


## Cross Exotics

I want to say thank you all for your input and personal feelings towards this moment. We all have a right to our opinions and I respect everyone for theirs. I will keep daily tabs on the clutch and update everyone when the clutch hatches. 

Thank You, 

Joe  :Very Happy:

----------

_Annarose15_ (07-07-2013),_Anya_ (07-08-2013),_elbee_ (07-07-2013),_JMinILM_ (07-07-2013),_Kodieh_ (07-07-2013),MarkS (07-07-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-07-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-07-2013),nykea (07-08-2013),rpmoore318 (07-08-2013),_TJ_Burton_ (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Family Reptiles

Picture of Desert on eggs to be posted shortly, once I get the picture off of my phone.  I'm not really a forum expert.  Only signed up or this one because of the post.

----------

_Kodieh_ (07-07-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-07-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## Family Reptiles

Hmm...how does one go about uploading a picture.  Copy and paste doesn't seem to work and the insert picture button asks for a URL.  I am looking for a newbie page that explains it, but as the credibility of my post has been brought into question I am trying my best to get the picture up quickly.

----------


## Mephibosheth1

Get imageshack or photobucket account.

Upload picture to chosen website

Copy the direct URL off the picture you have uploaded

Insert into the space provided in the dialog box

Bravo!!  Bravo!!  Bravisima!!  You've uploaded a picture!!

----------


## Kodieh

Tinypic.com would probably be better. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## satomi325

Personally, I don't see desert in the OPs animal. Just a Citrus Pastel.

I do agree that the OP prematurely jumped the gun on reporting this clutch. It would have been less dramatic if he documented this event after he produced a desert offspring. But things are how they are.

*IF*...and this is a big big if, if the OPs snake has the desert gene, it is 1 snake. 1 desert female out of many (who have died or had some sort of complication) isn't worth the risk and lives of future females in my personal opinion...

Ultimately, congrats on the healthy clutch OP. That's the important thing.

----------

nykea (07-08-2013)

----------


## Family Reptiles



----------

rpmoore318 (07-08-2013),_TJ_Burton_ (07-08-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Family Reptiles

Looks like I figured it out.  So far the eggs are looking good, hopefully they remain that way.

----------

behindblueyes (07-08-2013),_Bruceweb_ (07-08-2013),_Cross Exotics_ (07-07-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## caughdl

Subscribed to this one!  Hoping for the best for all!  Thanks for sharing!

----------


## ama1997

> 


How's the female doing? Any issues after laying?

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## ama1997

Subscribing

----------


## Bruceweb

> 


Is the pic of her mid lay...would you like to share any further info..Thanks

----------


## pulsarserpents

watching this with interest. Congrats on the clutch whatever the outcome.

----------


## rcjgm5

congratulations to the op and family reptiles hope everything goes well.

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## Solarsoldier001

OP I'm praying for your odds to be amazing. I'm going to go to one of Amir's reptile stores tomorrow. And ask the manager what he thinks. I've met Amir many times. And he has a lot of knowledge. I can't imagine him getting this wrong. But mistakes happen. I'm on the positive end. I hope that she proves out. Congrats to the OP and congrats to family reptile  :Smile: 


Sent from iPhone 5 using tapatalk  :Smile:

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> Is the pic of her mid lay...would you like to share any further info..Thanks


Im with this, more information please.  Who produced the desert, where did you get her from, what was she bred with, how long have you had her, anything strange about her or her care or is all normal?

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## Gregous

subscribed....hoping this works out since I love the Deserts

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## rabernet

> I'll make sure to make a post on this first,  before people get butt hurt.
> 
> I'm not specifically stating Amir is lying, a bad breeder, or anything of the sort. We are all human, and I won't just take anyone's word on genetics when something isn't supposed to happen unless the gene is mapped and you've got a genetics degree. We're all just hobbyists here and *I'm gonna treat you reading this post, and everyone else, the same way.* 
> 
> I was taught to question everything, that's just me. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


Perhaps it's your delivery that needs work. 

It's fine to disagree, and we all get it now from almost every single post here that you are a proud card carrying non-sheeple.  :Smile:

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-08-2013),_alexOATH_ (07-11-2013),_Anya_ (07-08-2013),FragginDragon (07-08-2013),h00blah (07-08-2013),_jben_ (07-08-2013),_Kodieh_ (07-08-2013),MarkS (07-08-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-08-2013),_RobNJ_ (07-08-2013),SnakeGriffin (08-09-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (07-08-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## tikigator

Subbing  :Smile:

----------


## Bigswol

Subscribing.. this has been one of the most interesting threads I have read on here in awhile.

----------


## grcforce327

> 


Hey,that's not a desert!!!

Kinda looks like my 1600gr female desert! I think mine is brighter. Going to have to shoot a pic to compare.

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## jben

IMHO, I don't think the OP prematurely jumped the gun. He purchased a citrus desert that ended up giving him eggs, who would not want to share that excitement, I know I would've done the same thing.

Sent from my EVO Design using Tapatalk 2.

----------

_Anya_ (07-08-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## lightpied

> 


Thanks for sharing, do you have any more info on her?(sorry if I missed info, long thread)

----------


## Rickys_Reptiles

Once upon a time a wild Ball Python produced a freak baby, a Ball Python with an odd pattern. Not sure how many thousands of Ball Pythons were produced before that happened.

Once upon a time a Desert Ball Python produced a viable cutch. Not sure how many hundreds of Ball Pythons had to die before that happened.

----------


## Herpenthusiast3

> perhaps it's your delivery that needs work. 
> 
> It's fine to disagree, and we all get it now from almost every single post here that you are a proud card carrying non-sheeple.


x2

----------


## heylookitsjon

> This is Mike from Family Reptiles here in Lakeland, FL.  Congratulations on your Desert clutch.  Scott and Elizabeth, the owners of Family Reptiles, also have a viable clutch of eggs from a Desert female currently in the incubator and it is due to pip in a couple weeks.  We also know of a few other breeders that have viable desert clutches and we are all trying to compare notes as to what factors may have been involved in the success.  If you are willing, Scott would love to chat.


Hey, I'm excited for you guys! I got my cinny female from Scott, and I couldn't be happier. 

To the OP: SUBBING. I have to know when this clutch hatches! Good luck.

To everyone arguing: Nah, not gonna get involved. Just gonna sit back and wait for pictures of baby snakes.

Praying to the Ball Gods that everyone's desert clutches come out good!

----------


## Jake Milbradt

> IMHO, I don't think the OP prematurely jumped the gun. He purchased a citrus desert that ended up giving him eggs, who would not want to share that excitement, I know I would've done the same thing.
> 
> Sent from my EVO Design using Tapatalk 2.


Anyone on here would have done the same thing. Like I said before, he paid $1900 for the snake. I'm sure he wasn't questioning whether or not it was a desert. He might be questioning it now, but that's a different discussion.

----------

_Anya_ (07-08-2013),_jben_ (07-08-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-08-2013)

----------


## bubblz

_Routing for the snake and the op and I also would have waited until the eggs hatched. This would have been less of an issue if you already had the evidence to back it up with. There are less disputes and nahsayers when all the proof you need is right there. Which is why most people working on projects and proving animals out keep it hush hush until they have the offspring to verify it. Hopefully lesson learned for some, some times a little patience goes a long way._

----------


## Family Reptiles



----------

_bad-one_ (07-12-2013),_Bruceweb_ (07-09-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-08-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Family Reptiles

Another picture of the female on eggs.  Sorry I didn't add a message to the picture I just posted. She was bred to a pinstripe male.  She is back on food and doing very well.  Eggs are due to pip around 8/2/13.  Certainly no guarantee that everything is going to go perfectly, but so far it is looking good.

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-09-2013),heylookitsjon (07-08-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-08-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## MasonC2K

This thread:

Tease. Anticipation. Tease
Excitement.
Cautious optimism.
Pessimism. Pessimism. Pessimism.
Optimistic confirmation.
Speculative inquisition.
Aggressive speculative statement.
Rebuttal. Rebuttal. Rebuttal.
Curious optimism.

----------

h00blah (07-09-2013),heylookitsjon (07-08-2013),MarkS (07-08-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-08-2013),_MisterKyte_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Xaila

Interesting stuff for sure.  I'll be keeping an eye on this thread  :Wink:   I'm not gonna get my hopes up about what it might mean for the future of Deserts though.

----------


## Mike41793

> Another picture of the female on eggs.  Sorry I didn't add a message to the picture I just posted. She was bred to a pinstripe male.  She is back on food and doing very well.  Eggs are due to pip around 8/2/13.  Certainly no guarantee that everything is going to go perfectly, but so far it is looking good.


Who'd you buy that female from?

----------

_eatgoodfood_ (07-09-2013)

----------


## majorleaguereptiles

> This thread:
> 
> Tease. Anticipation. Tease
> Excitement.
> Cautious optimism.
> Pessimism. Pessimism. Pessimism.
> Optimistic confirmation.
> Speculative inquisition.
> Aggressive speculative statement.
> ...


Haha I love this! Very true and I might be in some of that.  :Smile:

----------


## Robyn@SYR

I thought Family Reptiles sounded familiar. They had the table next to us at the Daytona show. 

Chad told me today that he spent a couple of hours at the show chatting them up all about the Desert project and his breeding strategies. Temps, feeding, cycling, weights, pairing, etc. 

I don't know if that paid a key role in their success, but I am glad to see it!

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## joebad976

> Another picture of the female on eggs.  Sorry I didn't add a message to the picture I just posted. She was bred to a pinstripe male.  She is back on food and doing very well.  Eggs are due to pip around 8/2/13.  Certainly no guarantee that everything is going to go perfectly, but so far it is looking good.


Thanks for posting, in an earlier post you had mentioned other breeders with deserts on eggs. You think it would be possible to get them to post on this thread as well? Are the other breeders also in Florida?

Would be nice to see some additional positive news. Good luck, it is going to be a long 25 day wait.

----------


## Family Reptiles

Robyn, yes we were.  That was the first show we did.

----------

_Robyn@SYR_ (07-09-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Cross Exotics

> _Routing for the snake and the op and I also would have waited until the eggs hatched. This would have been less of an issue if you already had the evidence to back it up with. There are less disputes and nahsayers when all the proof you need is right there. Which is why most people working on projects and proving animals out keep it hush hush until they have the offspring to verify it. Hopefully lesson learned for some, some times a little patience goes a long way._


Lesson learned to a degree, 1/3 - Female Desert laying and living = complete, 2/3 - Viable eggs in incubator = complete, 3/3 -  :Snake:  :Snake:  :Snake:  :Snake:  :Snake:  :Snake:  hatchlings = counting the days.  :Very Happy: 

Glass 2/3 full in my opinion and glad to share this with you.  :Smile:  Looking forward to the news from the others as well.

~ Joe

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-09-2013),_Seth702_ (07-09-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## Coopers Constrictors

I'm pretty sure the entire BP world is watching this. Good luck!

----------

_Buttons_ (07-09-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),_Wes_ (07-09-2013)

----------


## Bruceweb

> Another picture of the female on eggs.  Sorry I didn't add a message to the picture I just posted. She was bred to a pinstripe male.  She is back on food and doing very well.  Eggs are due to pip around 8/2/13.  Certainly no guarantee that everything is going to go perfectly, but so far it is looking good.


I wish you the best of luck, hopefully you will hit some nice Desert pins

- - - Updated - - -




> Lesson learned to a degree, 1/3 - Female Desert laying and living = complete, 2/3 - Viable eggs in incubator = complete, 3/3 -  hatchlings = counting the days. 
> 
> Glass 2/3 full in my opinion and glad to share this with you.  Looking forward to the news from the others as well.
> 
> ~ Joe


All the best Joe..good luck

----------


## eatgoodfood

> I thought Family Reptiles sounded familiar. They had the table next to us at the Daytona show. 
> 
> Chad told me today that he spent a couple of hours at the show chatting them up all about the Desert project and his breeding strategies. Temps, feeding, cycling, weights, pairing, etc. 
> 
> I don't know if that paid a key role in their success, but I am glad to see it!


If there was a strategy that may have played a role in this being successful I think it should be shared.  Hence my earlier question about anything being different with the care.  Family Reptiles was there anything different than normal?  And the questions about who produced your desert was not answered nor were the questions about these supposed other breeders.  I did not look at the time stamps of the posts so it may just be you have not had time to respond.  Im mostly curious where all these deserts came from because it would make most sense to me if they were all from the same line. That would also be good to know becaus that could prevent unnecessary harm to animals that are maybe not viable.

----------


## Family Reptiles

To everyone,
     Please be patient.  Given the challenges with Deserts we want to ensure that the information we are giving is as accurate and beneficial as possible.  The details wil be given in due time, but we feel it necessary to collaborate with the other breeders that have viable eggs from a desert female.  The original purpose of my initial post was twofold.  One was to make contact with the OP for collaboration and to let him know that someone else also has had a female lay.  The other reason was to let everyone else know that there was more than one female that has laid good eggs as well.

The details of who the other breeders are not being shared yet mainly because we do not have their go ahead on giving that info out. Their eggs are a couple of weeks behind ours and I imagine they want to wait and see what happens first.  As I mentioned, even with our eggs only having a couple of weeks before they are due, there are no guarantees.  As witnessed in this thread there are a wide range of beliefs as to when the announcement of viable Desert eggs should be made.  We are somewhere in the middle on this belief.  

Efforts are being made to determine if the females have come from a common line, or if temperatures were a factor, or age, or weight, or whatever thing or combination of things may have contributed to the success.

----------

_Action Reptiles_ (07-10-2013),_Annarose15_ (07-09-2013),Badgemash (07-09-2013),_Bruceweb_ (07-09-2013),_Cross Exotics_ (07-09-2013),h00blah (07-09-2013),heylookitsjon (07-12-2013),_jben_ (07-09-2013),_joebad976_ (07-09-2013),_jsmorphs2_ (07-09-2013),_liv_ (07-11-2013),robpirk (07-11-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-09-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-09-2013),WFA (07-10-2013),Whispre (07-09-2013),_wwmjkd_ (08-01-2013)

----------


## Dragoon

If this all works out I would love to see the genetics of the desert proven out and see if a super is even possible

----------

_Robyn@SYR_ (07-09-2013)

----------


## bkelley02

I read some people stating that the OP should not have shown or announced this until after the eggs hatched, but up until this point, have we ever had pictures of a desert on good eggs?  I don't recall ever seeing that.  Always slugs.  

Wishing the best of luck for healthy clutches to the OP and Family Reptiles.  Anxious to see what comes out of the eggs.

----------


## BPLuvr

Good luck to all the people that have Desert clutches waiting.  I would definately love to hear more.  More important are these all from the same line and/or breeder.  If so looking forward to see if these females currently laying maybe had been incubated at a differant temperature/humidity then the "norm" when they had been in eggs themselves.  It's been said by many that the original pastel desert looks differant then usual which could have had something to do with the way they had been incubated when they where in the egg.

----------


## asplundii

I would like to make a few comments here if I may...

Identity of the snake notwithstanding I think people need to consider a few things before making the claim that this is an absolute game changer for the morph. But first, a small point of clarification -- I do not know why everyone is under the impression that these eggs will not hatch. The issues with Desert females looks to be associated with the development/progress of the eggs *inside* the female. Once the eggs are out there _should_ be no issues with them.


Now, on to this specific incident.

There is an established trend line of female Deserts having issues. And here we now have a couple incidents of a female Desert laying a viable clutch. How is this unequivocal proof that the Desert female issue has been forever solved?

Let me phrase it back to you this way. What is the rate at which Caramels kink? What is the rate that SuperCinnys duckbill or kink? What is the rate that SuperLessers bug-eye? Just shooting from the hip I would guess these numbers to be about 40%, 15% and 5% respectively. Flip side being that 60%, 85% and 95% of these morphs are perfectly fine. So, because 60% of Caramels do not kink does that me we all go around saying that the problem of Caramel kinking has been solved? Of course not, it would be utterly ridiculous and foolish. So why are people using these couple Desert females as "proof" that Desert females have been "cured"? It is a haphazardous and dangerous stance to take.

Are there Desert females out there that could potentially have a viable clutch? Certainly. Do these few viable female Desert mean that all Desert females are now viable? Not hardly. Given the obvious trend line, is it prudent to breed female Deserts? That is for you to decide on your own. My personal feeling is that it is too great a risk and as such I will never add the Desert gene to my collection (by the same token I think the risk of kinking in Caramels is too great and so to I will not add that gene to my collection.) But that is just my opinion, you can do with your snakes whatever you wish.


Lastly, I have seen a number of people allude to the "cure" for the Desert issue being stacking more mutations on to Desert. This simply will not work. Does adding BlackPastel to Albino "cure" the animal from being an Albino? Does adding Mojave to Hypo "cure" the animal from being Hypo?

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-09-2013),_Alicia_ (07-09-2013),_Annarose15_ (07-09-2013),Badgemash (07-09-2013),behindblueyes (07-09-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (07-10-2013),Damzlfly (07-10-2013),h00blah (07-10-2013),hogboy (07-10-2013),Jam Reptiles (07-09-2013),_jben_ (07-09-2013),MajesticBalls (07-11-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-09-2013),_MootWorm_ (07-09-2013),Murse (07-09-2013),nykea (07-10-2013),_satomi325_ (07-09-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (07-09-2013),_TheSnakeGeek_ (07-09-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> Lastly, I have seen a number of people allude to the "cure" for the Desert issue being stacking more mutations on to Desert. This simply will not work. Does adding BlackPastel to Albino "cure" the animal from being an Albino? Does adding Mojave to Hypo "cure" the animal from being Hypo?


You were making some intelligent head way until you equated the problems laying and forming eggs to a morph. 

Oh, yeah, I just picked up a super hypo, enchi, black pastel, cantlayeggs female.

Now, had you said "does stacking more genes on spiders remove the wobble?" I would agree entirely with you. However, you didn't. 



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## Mike41793

I agree with what travis said. I have faith that those eggs will hatch because problems with desert females don't really have anything to do with the eggs. I was under the impression that it was problems with the females themselves, as he said. My point was that I don't think the dam carries the desert gene, so I don't think we'll see any desert babies when they hatch. I also am having trouble seeing desert in the snake that Family Reptiles posted. I'll ask again, where was the desert that Family Reptiles has, purchased from?

----------

_eatgoodfood_ (07-09-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> You were making some intelligent head way until you equated the problems laying and forming eggs to a morph. 
> 
> Oh, yeah, I just picked up a super hypo, enchi, black pastel, cantlayeggs female.
> 
> Now, had you said "does stacking more genes on spiders remove the wobble?" I would agree entirely with you. However, you didn't. 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


Why couldn't there be an issue related to the mutation of genes that make a desert what it is that causes problems with forming or laying eggs?? In theory it could be just like the spider, except the mutations don't affect the central nervous system they affect the reproductive system.

----------


## Kodieh

> Why couldn't there be an issue related to the mutation of genes that make a desert what it is that causes problems with forming or laying eggs?? In theory it could be just like the spider, except the mutations don't affect the central nervous system they affect the reproductive system.


You're furthering my argument. For spiders, and desert females, it is a defect associated with the morph; it is not a morph itself. 

Apples to oranges, is what you're doing. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## eatgoodfood

> You're furthering my argument. For spiders, and desert females, it is a defect associated with the morph; it is not a morph itself. 
> 
> Apples to oranges, is what you're doing. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


Im not so sure, my genetics knowledge is limited so asplundii could probably better explain it?! but how do we know that its a defect associated with the morph, as in, a mutated gene or, morph, causes an affect on something else, or is it the a mutated gene itself that is the issue, as in the morph itself is the issue.  But I suppose that might be what you were getting at with apples and oranges, semantics maybe.  As in are we defining a morph purely by what we see or are we defining it by the one or more mutated genes it carries?

I really do not know if I made any sense there...

----------


## Kodieh

I'm just saying that equating the inability to form or lay eggs to a morph such as hypo or anything else is not something you can do. It is not a morph, but a defect associated with a morph. 

It's just not sound logic. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## TJ_Burton

> I'm just saying that equating the inability to form or lay eggs to a morph such as hypo or anything else is not something you can do. It is not a morph, but a defect associated with a morph. 
> 
> It's just not sound logic. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


On a scientific and genetic level it is actually possible. You are making the assumption that the protein chain that effects the pattern of a "morph" will never have an effect on any other functions of the animal's development. Just because a genetic mutation effects the pattern or color of an animal does not automatically mean it stops there. It could also effect the animal on a neurological level or in a multitude of other ways. Just because it isn't always the case, doesn't mean it is never the case. That being said, it is possible that a visual morph can also carry a secondary issue, and the expression or severity of that issue may vary.

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-09-2013),_alexOATH_ (07-12-2013),_Alicia_ (07-09-2013),Badgemash (07-09-2013),behindblueyes (07-11-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (07-09-2013),h00blah (07-10-2013),kadru's clutch (08-22-2013),_liv_ (07-11-2013),_MootWorm_ (07-09-2013),nykea (07-10-2013),_Raven01_ (07-09-2013),SaintTawny (07-09-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> On a scientific and genetic level it is actually possible. You are making the assumption that the protein chain that effects the pattern of a "morph" will never have an effect on any other functions of the animal's development. Just because a genetic mutation effects the pattern or color of an animal does not automatically mean it stops there. It could also effect the animal on a neurological level or in a multitude of other ways. Just because it isn't always the case, doesn't mean it is never the case. That being said, it is possible that a visual morph can also carry a secondary issue, and the expression or severity of that issue may vary.


Thats a way better formulated way of saying what I was trying to say.

----------


## Kodieh

> On a scientific and genetic level it is actually possible. You are making the assumption that the protein chain that effects the pattern of a "morph" will never have an effect on any other functions of the animal's development. Just because a genetic mutation effects the pattern or color of an animal does not automatically mean it stops there. It could also effect the animal on a neurological level or in a multitude of other ways. Just because it isn't always the case, doesn't mean it is never the case. That being said, it is possible that a visual morph can also carry a secondary issue, and the expression or severity of that issue may vary.


Doesn't that also imply that you could somehow create an animal that is not desert at all, or spider at all, and have the issues those two have? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## grcforce327

> Who'd you buy that female from?





> I'll ask again, where was the desert that Family Reptiles has, purchased from?


 Mine is Stan's line.

 If I can get my head out of my &ss, I'll post a pic of mine for comparison. LOL

----------


## TJ_Burton

> Doesn't that also imply that you could somehow create an animal that is not desert at all, or spider at all, and have the issues those two have? 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


I don't see why not; it would just be less likely that they would surface so rapidly in captivity because we tend to only exploit traits that change the appearance of an animal visually. Any negative traits that are tied into a visual mutation would be discovered a lot faster.

Think about traits like scaleless where it is more than the pattern, but also the physiology of the snake that is changing.

----------


## Kodieh

> I don't see why not; it would just be less likely that they would surface so rapidly in captivity because we tend to only exploit traits that change the appearance of an animal visually.
> Think about traits like scaleless where it is more than the pattern, but also the physiology of the snake that is changing.


There in lies my query though, we don't exploit traits that arent visually appealing. Meaning that these problems these morphs have are defecs associated with morphological defects, and not likely to be stand alone. They're tied, is what I'm getting at. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## eatgoodfood

> There in lies my query though, we don't exploit traits that arent visually appealing. Meaning that these problems these morphs have are defecs associated with morphological defects, and not likely to be stand alone. They're tied, is what I'm getting at. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


So what your getting at is that its like spider, it cant be bred out, no change in temp or otherwise will fix it, its just part of that morph, regardless of what is going on genetically to cause the issue?

----------


## Kodieh

> So what your getting at is that its like spider, it cant be bred out, no change in temp or otherwise will fix it, its just part of that morph, regardless of what is going on genetically to cause the issue?


Yes, that's exactly it. Though the wobble and egg problems are not a morph like hypo or anything, like you tried to equate them to in the begin. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## TJ_Burton

> There in lies my query though, we don't exploit traits that arent visually appealing. Meaning that these problems these morphs have are defecs associated with morphological defects, and not likely to be stand alone. They're tied, is what I'm getting at. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


I would have to believe they are tied to one another. For example the spider gene will always, to some capacity, effect the snake on a neurological level. 
However, the level of expression will vary. Some spiders wobble like crazy, while others are reasonably normal but have the odd quirk or tick. The issue is nevertheless there.

So I guess my point is that IF the desert gene is directly tied to the ability of females producing viable clutches without complication (which is possible), that some females may still be able to produce based on that reproductive issue having a much lower expression in the snake.

At the end of the day it is all speculation until scientifically proven one way or the other.

----------

heylookitsjon (07-12-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

> Yes, that's exactly it. Though the wobble and egg problems are not a morph like hypo or anything, like you tried to equate them to in the begin. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


Lol, im pretty sure were just arguing semantics, Im just defining morph differently than you, but were on the same page.

----------


## TJ_Burton

> Lol, im pretty sure were just arguing semantics, Im just defining morph differently than you, but were on the same page.


Yep, I realized that right away which is why I changed how we were referring to it  :Wink:

----------


## paulbuckley

i always thought it strange that as a community, ball pythons folks decided desert females infertile. i understand that up till this point, 100% of breeding attempts failed - but hear me out...

where did stan's desert come from ? where did pete's come from ? some past or present wild and free snakes out there created them. are we to believe in the wilds of ghana only male desert ball pythons exist / existed ? 

to create a desert ball python, you need the desert gene. no different than a pastel or a spider. you cannot use non-desert gene snakes to create a desert offspring. the same logic follows for pastels, spiders, etc.

i suppose an argument could be made that, sure desert clutches are made, but in the wilds of africa, the females go about their business and die of egg binding or old age having never created offspring and the males crawl around fertilizing non-desert local gals. but i find that a really diluted argument - somewhere in africa, female deserts that lay viable clutches either exist, or existed. these original animals came from somewhere.

----------

trcmustang (07-13-2013)

----------


## Tomrhargreaves

> I also am having trouble seeing desert in the snake that Family Reptiles posted. I'll ask again, where was the desert that Family Reptiles has, purchased from?


For what it's worth I do not believe the female posted on eggs by Family Reptiles is a Desert either.

The colour and cleanliness of the pattern isn't bright or clean enough, there are too many alien heads, there is no white rising up from the belly to meet the pattern and the eye stripes should be wider. I know that she has just laid, is unlikely to have eaten for months and will not be looking at her best but I still see no sign of Desert in that animal at all. 

This is a perfect example showing all the points I mention on an adult female Desert at 1900g. I hope everyone, even those with no experience whatsoever, can see the difference. 



The Citrus Pastel shown by the original poster on eggs looks very, very much like a Citrus Desert and I could completely understand anybody making the mistake of selling it as such but as above I do not believe that it carries the Desert gene. The deciding factor being the faint speckling of darker pattern along the back of the animal as a hatchling, which Desert completely wipes out leaving them perfectly clean until they start putting on some size. A great post has already been made in this thread pointing out the key differences and 'markers' for it not carrying the Desert gene and I have nothing more to add to that. It is undoubtedly a beautiful animal and one of the most exceptional Pastels of any line that I have seen but that's what Citrus Pastels are famous for, being at the top end of the spectrum.

Obviously the day will come when these eggs hatch, ( there's no reason why they shouldn't) and there may be little baby Deserts in either clutch proving me wrong and that's absolutely fine. I will stand corrected and gladly admit it. But today with the information provided thus far, it is my belief that a Desert female is yet to lay a fertile clutch of eggs. Which is a huge shame as it's incredibly beautiful morph both on its own and in many, many combos.

----------

_Coleslaw007_ (07-11-2013),hogboy (07-10-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-09-2013)

----------


## paulbuckley

i think it's good to remain skeptical till these clutches hatch. i have no opinion on the citrus pastel desert as that is such a hard call - my experience with my own deserts, is the occasional snake can have quite a few alien heads - mostly, they are very clean offspring, but you can hatch out ones that look like this gal below, who in this pic is just under 400 grams. i do wish the eye stripe was wider on family reptiles' animal.

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-09-2013)

----------


## Bruceweb

> i think it's good to remain skeptical till these clutches hatch. i have no opinion on the citrus pastel desert as that is such a hard call - my experience with my own deserts, is the occasional snake can have quite a few alien heads - mostly, they are very clean offspring, but you can hatch out ones that look like this gal below, who in this pic is just under 400 grams. i do wish the eye stripe was wider on family reptiles' animal.


I have to agree on the eye stripe comment...But..I beleive Family reptiles have posted in good faith along with the OP..We will see.

----------


## grcforce327

Okay here is a comparison!



> 





> .


Here's mine.(Stan's line) She's just under 1600gm,and just shed.

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-09-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-09-2013)

----------


## pythnsnkmn

I am trying to figure out why a female desert laying eggs has turned into a 30 page fight. Seems like people would be glad to finally see a good clutch from a desert. Would I chance one of my animals, probably not. The OP paid enough for the animal and knew the risk. I hope the eggs hatch and babies thrive. All the bickering is crazy. Just my 2 cents

----------

_Anya_ (07-09-2013),behindblueyes (07-11-2013),_Bruceweb_ (07-09-2013),_jben_ (07-10-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Bruceweb

> I am trying to figure out why a female desert laying eggs has turned into a 30 page fight. Seems like people would be glad to finally see a good clutch from a desert. Would I chance one of my animals, probably not. The OP paid enough for the animal and knew the risk. I hope the eggs hatch and babies thrive. All the bickering is crazy. Just my 2 cents


My thoughts exactly..I have never understood why the project was so harshly trashed in the first place..Desert females producing eggs can only be a good thing, you would think the hobby would be pleased rather than bicker looking for reasons to disbelieve that the animals in question possess the desert gene.

Even if the females continued to have a problem males still make beautiful combo's...Its always went over my head, but maybe I dont look at my females as a commodity..its the only reason that I can see for the demise of the project  :Sad:

----------


## SaintTawny

> You were making some intelligent head way until you equated the problems laying and forming eggs to a morph. 
> 
> Oh, yeah, I just picked up a super hypo, enchi, black pastel, cantlayeggs female.
> 
> Now, had you said "does stacking more genes on spiders remove the wobble?" I would agree entirely with you. However, you didn't.





> You're furthering my argument. For spiders, and desert females, it is a defect associated with the morph; it is not a morph itself. 
> 
> Apples to oranges, is what you're doing.





> I'm just saying that equating the inability to form or lay eggs to a morph such as hypo or anything else is not something you can do. It is not a morph, but a defect associated with a morph. 
> 
> It's just not sound logic.





> Doesn't that also imply that you could somehow create an animal that is not desert at all, or spider at all, and have the issues those two have?





> i always thought it strange that as a community, ball pythons folks decided desert females infertile. i understand that up till this point, 100% of breeding attempts failed - but hear me out...
> 
> where did stan's desert come from ? where did pete's come from ? some past or present wild and free snakes out there created them. are we to believe in the wilds of ghana only male desert ball pythons exist / existed ? 
> 
> to create a desert ball python, you need the desert gene. no different than a pastel or a spider. you cannot use non-desert gene snakes to create a desert offspring. the same logic follows for pastels, spiders, etc.
> 
> i suppose an argument could be made that, sure desert clutches are made, but in the wilds of africa, the females go about their business and die of egg binding or old age having never created offspring and the males crawl around fertilizing non-desert local gals. but i find that a really diluted argument - somewhere in africa, female deserts that lay viable clutches either exist, or existed. these original animals came from somewhere.



A couple things on the strictly genetic side of this. As was touched on by someone else, gene sequences in every animal have multiple functions. In the skin layers, ATCGblahblah(1) will code for let's say pattern. That same exact sequence gets read in glandular tissue to code for hormone production. If the gene that codes for Desert is also read in reproductive tissue during development in a specific way it can indeed be a reproductive issue exclusive to Desert, since the reverse is also true. There is no "Desert causes repro issues" in this case, it's "Desert IS a repro issue." 

It's also possible that the original desert snake, first one to mutate and breed, carried a gene for reproductive issues which was located exactly next to or extremely close to the same mutation that causes the desert pattern/color, in which case it can be practically impossible to separate from the Desert gene because of the way that chromosomes divide during meiosis. They don't just split between every set of genes and randomly re-assort everything, there's a whole field of genetic study about predicting gene proximity. 

A third possible scenario, which is what everyone getting hyped for these clutches is hoping for, is that the first however many deserts bred in captivity shared a defect that was reasonably close to but separable from the sequence that causes the desert morph, and we've finally reached a point where we've separated the two out.

As for the spider morph, what I suspect happens there is there's a coding error with the sequence that causes the spider mutation, a repeat or many repeats which causes a hiccup with a protein elsewhere. Variance in the number of repeats can easily explain the variance in wobble. This is also possible with Deserts, in that we could find a variability in reproductive problems, some being worse and others being almost normal, or normal enough to lay at least.

DNA sequencing is really the only way we're ever going to get a definitive answer, but years and years of evidence can come pretty close to certainty. I suspect the repro issues with desert are the same that cause the visual morph, or at least inseparable. That's just my opinion, and I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Last thing, there doesn't necessarily have to be a successfully breeding female desert in the wild to propagate the morph that we've discovered. One male can spread a dominant/codominant trait without having any daughters produce viable eggs. The original desert male breeds a wild type female, has a clutch of 6 eggs, let's say it hatches 1.2 desert and 2.1 normals. Next year, he and his desert son each breed a different normal female, and each one of them has just one other desert son. Now there are 4 male deserts propagating the morph in the wild, despite the fact that none of his desert daughters have produced any offspring. At some point, desert is likely to die out in the wild as they're out-competed by a more rapidly growing population of non-deserts, doubly so if the males have developmental issues like some have suggested, but it doesn't have to happen quickly.

----------

behindblueyes (07-11-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (07-10-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (07-10-2013),nykea (07-10-2013),_TessadasExotics_ (07-13-2013)

----------


## treeboa

I wish those with the eggs good luck. I do think this would be a good start, but I have to agree that I won't get excited until It's shown that these would be reproducible results on a much larger scale. If not, it still won't be worth it to breed Desert females, in my opinion. As for people saying they shouldn't be experimenting because of the risk to the female, I don't think people like Robyn or Amir would be condoning the experiments if there was really such a high mortality rate. It seems the most common problem is getting slugs. If you breed any animals, you get some mortality rate, if it concerns us so much we wouldn't take a chance on breeding anything. Just my .02! Hoping this all turns out well!

----------

_Bruceweb_ (07-10-2013)

----------


## rabernet

I'm temporarily locking the thread down to split out all the nonsense. I have no ETA. It could be a few hours, and it could be later this evening. I have to go to work now, and when I can squeeze it in, I will.

Sent from my Samsung Note II using Tapatalk 2

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-10-2013),Badgemash (07-10-2013),_BHReptiles_ (07-10-2013),JLC (07-10-2013),MarkS (07-10-2013),_MasonC2K_ (07-10-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-10-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-10-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-10-2013),_TerrieL_ (07-10-2013),_TJ_Burton_ (07-10-2013),_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013),Tomrhargreaves (07-11-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## rabernet

I've attempted to clean up the thread while trying to maintain the civil discussions that have ranged from optimism to skepticism. 

The thread is now re-opened, and these discussions may continue, as long as the participants remain respectful to each other. Any personal issues that have nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but rather posted to insult one another will be also split from this thread and tossed into the split off thread, which now resides in the Quarantine Room, where you are welcome to squabble at your hearts' content. 

_I will issue a warning now - that those who insist on continuing the personal insults in this thread, after not one, but three staff members have asked for it to end, may very well be faced with warnings and/or infraction points for blatantly disregarding that request._ 

Here is a link to the split thread: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ng-Eggs-Thread

If you do not have access to the QT Room, and wish to have access, please send a PM to one of the Administrators - their names are in *RED*.

----------

_Aes_Sidhe_ (07-10-2013),_Cross Exotics_ (07-10-2013),_Darkbird_ (07-11-2013),dr del (07-10-2013),Family Reptiles (07-11-2013),_jben_ (07-12-2013),JLC (07-10-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-10-2013),_MootWorm_ (07-10-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-10-2013),_Pyrate81_ (07-10-2013),Tomrhargreaves (07-11-2013),_Wes_ (07-11-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

I'm gunna ask a 3rd time now lol... Where did Family Reptiles purchase that desert from? Do they have a receipt like the OP does for theirs? I'm not trying to be pessimistic or perpetual devils advocate, but I'm really not seeing any desert in that snake either.

----------

_eatgoodfood_ (07-12-2013),_Kodieh_ (07-11-2013)

----------


## Marrissa

> I'm gunna ask a 3rd time now lol... Where did Family Reptiles purchase that desert from? Do they have a receipt like the OP does for theirs? I'm not trying to be pessimistic or perpetual devils advocate, but I'm really not seeing any desert in that snake either.


This is what Family Reptiles posted about sharing this information.




> To everyone,
> Please be patient. Given the challenges with Deserts we want to ensure that the information we are giving is as accurate and beneficial as possible. The details wil be given in due time, but we feel it necessary to collaborate with the other breeders that have viable eggs from a desert female. The original purpose of my initial post was twofold. One was to make contact with the OP for collaboration and to let him know that someone else also has had a female lay. The other reason was to let everyone else know that there was more than one female that has laid good eggs as well.
> 
> The details of who the other breeders are not being shared yet mainly because we do not have their go ahead on giving that info out. Their eggs are a couple of weeks behind ours and I imagine they want to wait and see what happens first. As I mentioned, even with our eggs only having a couple of weeks before they are due, there are no guarantees. As witnessed in this thread there are a wide range of beliefs as to when the announcement of viable Desert eggs should be made. We are somewhere in the middle on this belief. 
> 
> Efforts are being made to determine if the females have come from a common line, or if temperatures were a factor, or age, or weight, or whatever thing or combination of things may have contributed to the success.

----------


## don15681

to witchbane and family reptiles, just wanted to thank you for sharing this information. don

----------

_Tom Pecanic_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## Cross Exotics

You're very welcome Don. I'm sure Witchbane is odd, but it was an old gamer tag from my PC playing days. Cross Exotics is the company my family and I have started. Sorry for the confusion. ~ Joe.  :Very Happy:

----------

_don15681_ (07-13-2013)

----------


## paulbuckley

i see desert in these two snakes... granted the citrus is harder, but both have a look thats very promising to me. i've produced maybe 30 deserts the past few years - i realize that does not make me an expert, but from what i've witnessed on my own, i like what i see. i may be proven wrong, but i hope not. good luck guys and thanks for posting. exciting stuff.

----------


## Mike41793

> This is what Family Reptiles posted about sharing this information.


Yea i get that they're withholding some of the details... I just wanna know where the got the snake from though. It doesn't look like a desert to me either.

----------


## MisterKyte

> Identity of the snake notwithstanding I think people need to consider a few things before making the claim that this is an absolute game changer for the morph. But first, a small point of clarification -- I do not know why everyone is under the impression that these eggs will not hatch. The issues with Desert females looks to be associated with the development/progress of the eggs *inside* the female. Once the eggs are out there _should_ be no issues with them.


That is a very apt observation that a lot of people probably should take into consideration here. 

As for me, having no experience with the Desert morph, I am personally inclined to trust the judgement of Amir and the OP but if things turn out to not be what they see, well, it'll be disappointing but I'm certain both parties would be willing to work towards a solution. 

I'm cautiously excited about these females from both the OP and Family Reptiles for a number of reasons (copycat breedings, flukes, endangerment of animals, etc. etc.) and yeah, these probably should have totally been sat on before they were posted since I think a lot of the "negative nancies" are just concerned about this abruptly coming out of the woodwork. Personally, I think that this is something maybe even should have been kept on the DL until after the clutch was hatched out, Desert females raised, and proved to also be viable or not but that's just me. Breeding of Desert females, although not always fatal, is something that I think we can all agree on should be approached with the utmost caution. That being said, if this for whatever reason results in a line of fertile Desert females, I'd back it 100%. Here's hoping to you, OP! And you to Family Reptiles! Let's hope both these girls turn the tide.

----------

heylookitsjon (07-12-2013),_jben_ (07-13-2013),_joebad976_ (07-12-2013)

----------


## TessadasExotics

Congrats if this proves to be true. Even if it is proven to be true, it's gona take some years before we can see if the females from the clutches have issues or not, and then their clutches afterwards.
So many Genetic experts and phenomenal attitudes on this site.

Haters gona hate, no matter what.

----------


## Annarose15

> Yea i get that they're withholding some of the details... I just wanna know where the got the snake from though. It doesn't look like a desert to me either.


I met the Family Reptiles folks at the Columbia Repticon this past weekend. They seem like very nice folks who are eager to share their learnings with the BP community, ONCE they have hatchlings thriving and have had a chance to collaborate with others in their situation to see what changes in methods seem most likely to have impacted their success so far. I also saw quite a few more pictures of their female on eggs, and don't doubt from those that she's a desert. Bear in mind that pics snapped while a female is laying are typically in horrible lighting with a shaky hand (I know I would be shaking if I just found that clutch!). I think we as a community can hold our collective breath for a few more weeks (or months, heaven forbid), and then all of our questions will be answered to the best of the OP's and other's abilities.

----------

_CD CONSTRICTORS_ (07-16-2013),JLC (07-15-2013),_joebad976_ (07-15-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## Bruceweb

> I met the Family Reptiles folks at the Columbia Repticon this past weekend. They seem like very nice folks who are eager to share their learnings with the BP community, ONCE they have hatchlings thriving and have had a chance to collaborate with others in their situation to see what changes in methods seem most likely to have impacted their success so far. I also saw quite a few more pictures of their female on eggs, and don't doubt from those that she's a desert. Bear in mind that pics snapped while a female is laying are typically in horrible lighting with a shaky hand (I know I would be shaking if I just found that clutch!). I think we as a community can hold our collective breath for a few more weeks (or months, heaven forbid), and then all of our questions will be answered to the best of the OP's and other's abilities.


Another couple of clutches have been announced today in the UK..I wonder how many others arpund the globe have had successful pairings..the negativity by some will not help others come forward..its a shame

----------

_Annarose15_ (07-15-2013),_jben_ (07-15-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> Another couple of clutches have been announced today in the UK..I wonder how many others arpund the globe have had successful pairings..the negativity by some will not help others come forward..its a shame


Hey, it's snowing in Cuba. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## Bruceweb

> I met the Family Reptiles folks at the Columbia Repticon this past weekend. They seem like very nice folks who are eager to share their learnings with the BP community, ONCE they have hatchlings thriving and have had a chance to collaborate with others in their situation to see what changes in methods seem most likely to have impacted their success so far. I also saw quite a few more pictures of their female on eggs, and don't doubt from those that she's a desert. Bear in mind that pics snapped while a female is laying are typically in horrible lighting with a shaky hand (I know I would be shaking if I just found that clutch!). I think we as a community can hold our collective breath for a few more weeks (or months, heaven forbid), and then all of our questions will be answered to the best of the OP's and other's abilities.


Another couple of clutches have been announced today in the UK..I wonder how many others around the globe have had successful pairings..the negativity by some will not help others come forward..its a shame..I am proud to be one of the stupid trolls that has point blankly refuse to be brow beaten into accepting the opinions of others on the net that have continually regurgitated others opinions despite the fact that no one knows what has been the issue..people should think for themselfs rather than follow the pack..just my opinion of course

All the best to every one that has had a result breeding their females..its been great news

----------


## Bruceweb

> Hey, it's snowing in Cuba. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


Apparently they arent far off hatching so I guess we will see eh!...I guess YOU would believe its snowing in Cuba if others were to tell you so..personaly I take every thing on the net with a pinch of salt lol!

----------


## Kodieh

> Apparently they arent far off hatching so I guess we will see eh!...I guess YOU would believe its snowing in Cuba if others were to tell you so..personaly I take every thing on the net with a pinch of salt lol!


Quite the contrary, I'm highly skeptical of this. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------


## Bruceweb

> Quite the contrary, I'm highly skeptical of this. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


Thats entirely up to you..each to their own...Time will tell on this subject..Is their a need to ram your negative opinion down the throats of others simply as you are not prepared to keep an open mind...it isnt the first gene that has been considered infertile after all..but as I have allready said thats your opinion..I happen to disagree

 Holidaying in Antigua..We had hail stones the size of golf balls..GO FIGURE

----------

h00blah (08-20-2013),_Kodieh_ (07-15-2013),_spitzu_ (07-15-2013)

----------


## Sandy_01

> I met the Family Reptiles folks at the Columbia Repticon this past weekend. They seem like very nice folks who are eager to share their learnings with the BP community, ONCE they have hatchlings thriving and have had a chance to collaborate with others in their situation to see what changes in methods seem most likely to have impacted their success so far. I also saw quite a few more pictures of their female on eggs, and don't doubt from those that she's a desert. Bear in mind that pics snapped while a female is laying are typically in horrible lighting with a shaky hand (I know I would be shaking if I just found that clutch!). I think we as a community can hold our collective breath for a few more weeks (or months, heaven forbid), and then all of our questions will be answered to the best of the OP's and other's abilities.


I second what Annarose15 said    :Good Job: 

My s.o. (Tim) and I were also at Columbia Repticon show this past weekend. We also had a rather long conversation with the Family Reptiles folks. They are great folks to talk to and to do business with.   :Very Happy:

----------


## rabernet

The bickering posts made today which have nothing to do with the subject of this thread have joined their brethren in the split thread in QT.  :Mad:

----------

_Annarose15_ (07-15-2013),Badgemash (08-19-2013),_jben_ (07-15-2013),_MasonC2K_ (07-15-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-16-2013),_sissysnakes_ (07-15-2013),_STjepkes_ (07-16-2013),wolfy-hound (07-21-2013)

----------


## MasonC2K

Thanks Robin. People need to take the fighting elsewhere.

----------


## LotsaBalls

When are clutches due?

----------


## grcforce327

> When are clutches due?


Read the thread!

----------


## wolfy-hound

Subscribing to the thread. I hope that the desert problem is figured out, even though it will mean the value of desert females will rise and I won't be as likely to find a female desert for inexpensive price for me to keep. I wanted a female to keep mostly as a pet(because they are beautiful) since everyone said they couldn't breed. 

I can understand some people saying that maybe a snake in the pictures(various) might not be a desert, or doesn't look desert. But to say that you hope someone's pet dies just so you can be right? Poor form. Poor form indeed. That's not being a anti-sheeple, that's being a jerk. Hoping no deserts are produced, or hoping the eggs don't hatch, etc, fine. That's petty. But hoping an animal dies? Sorry. 

And jumping on the bandwagon of "All desert females are sterile/die and should never be bred" isn't being a anti-sheeple, it's just being a different kind of sheeple. You're falling in with the main bulk of the hobby that assumed that was true, even though there had not been very much breeding of adult large desert females as of yet. Could that still be true? Of course. There's been some females that die egg bound. There's been more than slug out or fail to become gravid. That's not absolute proof that all desert genes are going to be nonviable. Experimenting to see what will work or what does not work is needed.

Some female pythons will die when bred. No matter if they're deserts, morphs, normals or new oddballs. It will happen. Anyone who breeds any female is taking a risk of losing the animal, even if it's a cow or a fish. Desert females MAY have a higher incidence of egg binding, so anyone who is taking the risk should be prepared for a vet bill if things go wrong. But every person on here who owns even one animal should be prepared for a vet bill if things go wrong, whether it's a breeding animal or not. 

I wish the OP all the best, I hope all the clutches produced hatch healthy babies and better yet that some are deserts.

I'd have posted the viable clutch too. Why sit on that news?? No one suggests that other people with clutches sit on their news until the eggs hatch. He didn't say Hey I'm producing a clutch full of deserts! He said "My desert female produced viable eggs" which is a accomplishment in itself.  Considering all the people who are quite willing to state as fact "All desert females die when bred", it's a good sign that some lay their viable eggs without any issues.

----------

_Cross Exotics_ (07-22-2013),DestinyLynette (07-22-2013),_FireStorm_ (08-09-2013),h00blah (07-21-2013)

----------


## Raven01

I can't see this having a great effect on female prices unless the issue is determined to be solely a husbandry issue Wolfy.
If it can only cross with morphs that enlarge ovi-ducts that is very limiting and investment wise potentially costly until a list of "large ovi-duct morphs" is compiled.
Then there is the possibility that it is a different line of Deserts with either no shrinking of the ovi-ducts or that trait expressed to a lesser degree.  That would drive up that lines female price over night but the rest would remain pet-quality animals only.
And if it is a line thing, even if I buy a snake from Amir I still wouldn't but a "breedable female Desert" from myself for more than pet quality.  I just don't have the reputation to lose that he does.  In 10 years time that might be different but, the big players will have a pretty steady monopoly on this morph until it is the only line available.

----------


## bcr229

> Then there is the possibility that it is a different line of Deserts with either no shrinking of the ovi-ducts or that trait expressed to a lesser degree.  That would drive up that lines female price over night but the rest would remain pet-quality animals only.


Or worse, you'll find scammers claiming that the desert females they're selling are from that line, when they know damned well they're not.  Look at how many were selling false hets over the years.

----------

nykea (07-22-2013)

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

> Or worse, you'll find scammers claiming that the desert females they're selling are from that line, when they know damned well they're not.  Look at how many were selling false hets over the years.


simple solution: request pictures of desert mom on eggs.

----------


## crystlew123

Uh....so there are 
Women who shouldn't have babies because their bodies are unable to give birth naturally? Who are you to say who or what can and cannot be bred. *smh* all of you are getting bent out of shape. If this snake had been in the wild she would have mated and laid eggs, and she may or may not have become bound. Many many morphs wouldn't be in existence if people didn't take chances with their pets. Without experiments, life would still be caveman style, and none of you would 
Be breeding anything except for females to make babies and hunting mastadons. This is supposed to be a friendly place but some of you're posts  are so negative over something we should all be  anxiously holding your breath over instead of sounding like a pissy mother in law who thinks her daughter in law is a stupid  cow without a lick of common sense. Blah. Maybe you should be able to breed because you're too negative? Just my humble opinion.  :Rage:

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

> Uh....so there are 
> Women who shouldn't have babies because their bodies are unable to give  birth naturally? Who are you to say who or what can and cannot be bred.


oh i don't know? someone who cares about a living, breathing animal's health and well-being?




> If this snake had been in the wild she would have mated and laid eggs, and she may or may not have become bound.


uh no..? if this morph was left in the wild it would've likely died out. the only reason this morph is around today is because breeders play God and selectively breed for it.

----------

nykea (07-22-2013),rabernet (07-22-2013),_satomi325_ (08-01-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> Uh....so there are 
> Women who shouldn't have babies because their bodies are unable to give birth naturally? Who are you to say who or what can and cannot be bred. *smh* all of you are getting bent out of shape. If this snake had been in the wild she would have mated and laid eggs, and she may or may not have become bound. Many many morphs wouldn't be in existence if people didn't take chances with their pets. Without experiments, life would still be caveman style, and none of you would 
> Be breeding anything except for females to make babies and hunting mastadons. This is supposed to be a friendly place but some of you're posts  are so negative over something we should all be  anxiously holding your breath over instead of sounding like a pissy mother in law who thinks her daughter in law is a stupid  cow without a lick of common sense. Blah. Maybe you should be able to breed because you're too negative? Just my humble opinion.


Hypocrite. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

----------

DestinyLynette (07-22-2013)

----------


## sasT

even if this supposedly Desert female has living offspring it won't change the fact that dozens have tried before and had no luck with producing viable clutches .. maybe this is the miracle Desert girl but in my eyes Desert females are still not producing viable clutches, if there is one exception or not

----------


## wolfy-hound

Well it's not one, but more than one, but it's a valid point to say that a few desert females laying viable clutches do not a viable breeding morph population make.

It will take more than that to prove that desert females can breed successfully.

And I understand that ONE doesn't really affect the price on the females(pet quality), but my comment was specifically if it's been figured out how to breed desert females, or if it's proven that they are viable(not just this one), then I'd be happy despite the prices going up(IF they were now potential breeders rather than just a couple flukes). Otherwise I may still be getting myself a non-breeding desert female for a pet(it would go nicely with my non-breeding spider female, so to speak). I have a couple pets, and pretty snakes are pretty snakes. 

And I generally don't compare humans with animals. Obviously human women have a lot more resources to deal with having a baby if they have complications. You can't really compare a hatchling snake with a human baby in terms of worth and risk assessment, at least in my opinion.

----------

rabernet (07-22-2013),_satomi325_ (08-01-2013),_STjepkes_ (07-22-2013)

----------


## nykea

> Another couple of clutches have been announced today in the UK..I wonder how many others arpund the globe have had successful pairings..the negativity by some will not help others come forward..its a shame


Would you mind sharing the source for these two UK clutches?

----------

_Mike41793_ (07-22-2013)

----------


## ARamos8

OP - Gratz on the clutch.  I hope what you are looking for pips out.  These are exciting times for you and your project.  Now plan for the long road before you if a female desert hatches.  Best of luck to you and the scale kids.   :Smile:

----------

_Cross Exotics_ (07-29-2013)

----------


## rabernet

> simple solution: request pictures of desert mom on eggs.


Not so simple solution with a scammer. They can wrap a desert around another clutch of eggs.

----------

*bcr229* (07-22-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-22-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-22-2013)

----------


## dr del

> Would you mind sharing the source for these two UK clutches?


Hi,

It was actually a genuine mistake - the clutches he was talking about were *sired* by a male desert but the person did not make that clear at the time.


dr del

----------

_eatgoodfood_ (07-22-2013),_Kodieh_ (07-22-2013)

----------


## nykea

Thank you for clearing this up.  :Good Job:

----------


## hypersomniacjoo

i soooo don't want to wait til september to hear the results of the OP's clutch!

----------

_sissysnakes_ (08-01-2013)

----------


## Cross Exotics

Just an update, the eggs are looking great  :Good Job:  and the days are looking so far away for the pips    :Tears:  ..

----------

Badgemash (08-19-2013),Casey Hulse (08-09-2013),_don15681_ (08-03-2013),dr del (07-30-2013),_jben_ (07-30-2013),_lightpied_ (08-09-2013),_Mike41793_ (07-30-2013),PitOnTheProwl (07-30-2013),_Quiet Tempest_ (08-01-2013),_Robyn@SYR_ (07-31-2013),RzezniksRunAway (07-31-2013),scubadude (08-01-2013),WFA (08-02-2013)

----------


## Whispre

Any news on the Family Reptiles clutch?

----------


## ZiggysMom

Subscribing to see how this progresses.

----------


## SnakeGriffin

How many more days left until it hits the mark? Im actually excited to hear about this breakthrough even though it doesn't mean that every Desert female is breed-able. Regardless that doesn't mean that years down the line if the op hatches viable females that he can't raise them and prove them to be genetically linked to their mother. Keep us updated like you have been!    :Smile:

----------


## SnakeGriffin

Subcribed

----------


## scubadude

subscribed

----------


## foobar

Everytime I see a new post in this thread I look forward to find something worth reading. But then....what do I see? Subscribed....so a big part of this thread is only about people that subscribe to it. Maybe this hint helps for future threads:

 

Please subscribe to threads with the possibilities you have (Thread tools -> Subscribe to this Thread). Within tapatalk you can stare it.

Thanks...

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-10-2013),dr del (08-10-2013),_jben_ (08-10-2013)

----------


## Cross Exotics

Lol, you made me get excited too thinking something was new. I was thinking Family Reptiles posted a development. 

Sent from Cross Exotics

----------


## rynoehlers

Subscribed

----------


## Shadera

> Another picture of the female on eggs.  Sorry I didn't add a message to the picture I just posted. She was bred to a pinstripe male.  She is back on food and doing very well.  Eggs are due to pip around 8/2/13.  Certainly no guarantee that everything is going to go perfectly, but so far it is looking good.


Any updates with this clutch?  I think we're all squirming around in our seats.
If everything is still hush-hush, can you at least tell us just if they have hatched?
Thank you.

----------


## notmyfault

I subscribed a month ago, should I still say....

Subscribed?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4

----------


## TheSnakeGeek

i'm curious about this as well.. you would think if they hatched deserts they would be excited to update everyone.. at least i know i would. but i'm a forum junkie.  :Razz:

----------


## MarkS

It's only been a month since this thread was first created.  I'm guessing they have another month to go.  Patience....

----------

_jben_ (08-11-2013)

----------


## gsarchie

> Yea, i'm really questioning it... The pastel desert on this page looks different than your female. A lot more blushing: 
> 
> http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm
> 
> I think you just have a citrus pastel, no desert.





> This is a pic of the same snake from another thread. 
> 
> 
> I think the photo of the snake on eggs wasn't really taken with the greatest care due to eggcitment. Lol. And if the snake came from Amir (like it sounds to me) I would say, I would trust his judgement on if the desert in there. Just my .02


Definitely NOT the same snake in these two pictures.

----------


## Pythonfriend

im not excited at all.

if the breeding of desert females most times just doesnt work, and sometimes ends in disaster and the death of the female, and in this one rare case it works....   So what? Now lets say it works. It will cause others to also try, which will most likely lead to failed clutches and potentially even a few dead desert females. Now lets say the odds are good and new female deserts are produced in this clutch, of course they will be raised up and breeding will again be tried. What if everything goes wrong then? What if this one female produced this one healthy clutch, but then all further attempts to produce a second clutch fail? 

for me to be excited about it would require the production of a super desert. As far as we know, its the female fertility issues that prevent the production of a super desert, apart from that it may be entirely possible to produce one. 

why take all the risk, why risk the health of a BP, when there is no real reward at the end? Why do it, if you produce nothing that cannot be produced by using a male desert?

----------


## Shadera

> It's only been a month since this thread was first created.  I'm guessing they have another month to go.  Patience....


As I quoted above, Family Reptiles' desert female's clutch was due to pip on August 2, 9 days ago.  We're all just hoping for the promised updates, and hoping again that they don't just disappear.

----------

_Mike41793_ (08-11-2013),_wwmjkd_ (08-11-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

> As I quoted above, Family Reptiles' desert female's clutch was due to pip on August 2, 9 days ago.  We're all just hoping for the promised updates, and hoping again that they don't just disappear.


Yea they should be out by now, lets see them!

----------


## MarkS

> As I quoted above, Family Reptiles' desert female's clutch was due to pip on August 2, 9 days ago.  We're all just hoping for the promised updates, and hoping again that they don't just disappear.


Sorry, I was thinking more about the original poster Witchbane who started this whole thread, I'd forgotten about Family Reptiles.  You're right though.  If they've already hatched, they should post about it whether it's good news or bad.

----------

_Shadera_ (08-12-2013)

----------


## joebad976

Well if you are going to Daytona next weekend you can probably ask them face to face as I am sure they will be vending there. I will be sure to ask them to see what they say.

----------

_Mike41793_ (08-11-2013),_Shadera_ (08-12-2013)

----------


## gsarchie

I feel like I smell BS here given how far past the expected pip we are.  If they were the true first offspring from a female desert I feel like someone here would have heard about it by now.

----------


## Annarose15

> I feel like I smell BS here given how far past the expected pip we are.  If they were the true first offspring from a female desert I feel like someone here would have heard about it by now.


I disagree. With the circus surrounding this issue, I wouldn't blame them for waiting until the hatchlings have shed and fed before posting more about them.

They also aren't regular members of this forum, so may have forgotten this particular thread. Has anyone checked the BLBC or fauna?

----------


## bcr229

OP's snake laid her eggs on 7/5 so we wouldn't hear anything about them just yet.  I missed when the other female laid her eggs.

----------


## wwmjkd

> Again, when you're right you're right. Call me what you want, but surely we'd hear about it by now. They'd scream to the high heavens if it was a desert. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


not necessarily. I've never felt the need to shout anything to the heavens, although I hope I'm seized by such passion one day. most people don't feel compelled to share their pairings and breeding stats with the forums. especially when Family Reptiles only signed on to bp.net in support of someone else's (potential) desert clutch. we get lucky with the benefit of many experienced people willing to share ideas and information. even though I would probably share the outcome, there's no obligation to post results.

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-11-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> not necessarily. I've never felt the need to shout anythin to the heavens, although I hope I'm seized by such passion one day. most people don't feel compelled to share their pairings and breeding stats with the forums. especially when Family Reptiles only signed on to bp.net in support of someone else's (potential) desert clutch


And I get that, but anyone can feel hype even over the Internet. I just feel like the result would be all over the hobby by now. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------

_gsarchie_ (08-11-2013)

----------


## Raven01

> im not excited at all.
> 
> if the breeding of desert females most times just doesnt work, and sometimes ends in disaster and the death of the female, and in this one rare case it works....   So what? Now lets say it works. It will cause others to also try, which will most likely lead to failed clutches and potentially even a few dead desert females. Now lets say the odds are good and new female deserts are produced in this clutch, of course they will be raised up and breeding will again be tried. What if everything goes wrong then? What if this one female produced this one healthy clutch, but then all further attempts to produce a second clutch fail? 
> 
> for me to be excited about it would require the production of a super desert. As far as we know, its the female fertility issues that prevent the production of a super desert, apart from that it may be entirely possible to produce one. 
> 
> why take all the risk, why risk the health of a BP, when there is no real reward at the end? Why do it, if you produce nothing that cannot be produced by using a male desert?


Is Super Desert not only a speculative possibility.  Not proven to be either dominant or incomplete dominant(codom) with any degree of certainty other than it must be one of the two.

As for why it is important, it is a stellar looking morph that has not seen its' full potential due exclusively to the sterility/breeding issues with females.
If this turns out to be a line of Desert or a desert lookalike without the same problem, projects will explode offering enthusiasts new healthy combinations.
If it is instead a case of one morph cancelling out the small oviduct problem growth will be much slower since there is little known about morphs causing unusually large oviducts.

----------


## Cross Exotics

Just an update for everyone. The eggs are doing well and are due around the 5th of next month respectfully. As things progress I'll keep everyone updated regardless of the outcome be it a Desert that crawls from the eggs (which I have faith in) or something else (which I doubt). For the record as well, when I did a Google search for "pastel deserts" a few weeks back and this photo came up in the mix which looked interesting. 

Regards, 

Joe

Cross Exotics

----------

_don15681_ (08-11-2013),_Raven01_ (08-11-2013),_Shadera_ (08-12-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

Nope, i'm with kodie. I came off like a {removed} in this thread calling both of them out but i still think i'm right. Anna said that she saw family reptiles female desert in person at a show or something and said it looked like a desert. I respect her opinion but I still disagree. 

If i had hatched deserts i'd be posting them everywhere. They were the ones who came here and built it up that they'd have them. Now their clutch is like a week past hatch date and they're still MIA. I can see the other side of it though too, wanting to keep it a secret. I just wouldn't do it that way, personally.

I expect witchbane to update us as soon as his crawl out of the eggs!! :p

----------

_Shadera_ (08-12-2013)

----------


## Raven01

> Nope, i'm with kodie. I came off like a {removed} in this thread calling both of them out but i still think i'm right. Anna said that she saw family reptiles female desert in person at a show or something and said it looked like a desert. I respect her opinion but I still disagree. 
> 
> If i had hatched deserts i'd be posting them everywhere. They were the ones who came here and built it up that they'd have them. Now their clutch is like a week past hatch date and they're still MIA. I can see the other side of it though too, wanting to keep it a secret. I just wouldn't do it that way, personally.
> 
> I expect witchbane to update us as soon as his crawl out of the eggs!! :p


Hatch date at what temperature?
It is my understanding that one of the theories regarding these snakes is husbandry and hatching could require cooler temps.  Just throwing it out there.  I remain skeptical but hopeful.  
And, as I've said before I honestly don't mind if it is a Desert look-alike that they are onto or an actual Desert.  IMHO Desert pattern blows Enchi out of the water, so any snake new or old with that appearance and few to minimal problems is going to capture my interest.

----------


## Kodieh

Don't know if anyone watched Snake Bytes today, but they showed a pastel desert.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## Mike41793

2.5 weeks after hatch date, still waiting on those deserts....  :Very Happy:   :Wink:

----------

_cory9oh4_ (08-20-2013),hig (08-19-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

I'll do back flips for an update. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------

_Mike41793_ (08-19-2013)

----------


## Badgemash

> Uh....so there are 
> Women who shouldn't have babies because their bodies are unable to give birth naturally? Who are you to say who or what can and cannot be bred.


I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but  :ROFL: 

As one of those darned infertile women, I'm going to vote no, I should not be bred. Although it never occurred to me to label myself "pet quality," going to go warn the DH that he's stuck with an expensive decorative pet.  :Very Happy: 

Seriously though, enough with the argumentative sniping, it's put me off checking up on this thread because it's so irritaing to wade through, which is sad because I'm genuinely curious to see how this all turns out.

----------

_Inarikins_ (08-20-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-19-2013)

----------


## West Coast Jungle

> 2.5 weeks after hatch date, still waiting on those deserts....


Mike did you fail math? They aren't due still begining of Sept. :Wink:

----------

SnakeGriffin (08-20-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

> Mike did you fail math? They aren't due still begining of Sept.


We are of course talking about the Family people's clutch, not the thread starters. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## cory9oh4

:Bowdown:  :Bowdown:  :Bowdown:

----------


## Mike41793

I'm talking about family reptiles clutch. 

Did you fail english, raul? Read the whole thread and try to keep up with me!  :Very Happy:   :ROFL:

----------

_cory9oh4_ (08-20-2013),_Kodieh_ (08-20-2013),_West Coast Jungle_ (08-20-2013)

----------


## carlisleishere

Family Reptiles posted an update on their desert clutch status post on facebook saying that the eggs hatched and are healthy. The didn't reveal anything else yet.

https://m.facebook.com/pages/Family-...00002495267687

I'm curious to what hatched out.

----------


## West Coast Jungle

> I'm talking about family reptiles clutch. 
> 
> Did you fail english, raul? Read the whole thread and try to keep up with me!


So they hatched but no details? the plot thickens :Tears:

----------


## RoseyReps

I asked family reptiles directly at Daytona  and they stated they weren't releasing any more information until the other clutches hatched / released info. All they would say is all hatched / healthy >_<

----------


## Mike41793

Why would they wait until the other clutches hatch? That makes zero sense to me. With something like this, why wouldn't you want to be able to claim you're the first breeder whose done this successfully? This is a HUGE deal. The sooner that they release info, the sooner it could prevent more desert females from being bred.

----------


## TJ_Burton

I am curious to see how this pans out... and there has been a lot of waiting involved.

I try not to check up on the thread too often so I don't go mental waiting to hear/see the results.

----------


## CD CONSTRICTORS

I happened to be standing at their table when they were asked about the clutch.

The reply was that they were healthy but they could not tell if any were positive DG's.... not that it was a secret, but they could not physically conclude there were any or not.

----------


## Mike41793

Wait DG's...? DG stands for desert ghost, doesn't it...?

----------


## Kodieh

So, it wasn't a desert.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## CD CONSTRICTORS

> Wait DG's...? DG stands for desert ghost, doesn't it...?


I stand corrected.... meant Deserts. Sorry to get everyone's panties rustled.

----------


## Mike41793

whoa i just got so confused for a minute lol. 

Ok so they said they couldnt tell if any of the babies were desert? Thats probably because IMO the desert gene wasnt in that dam. Did they ever answer my question of where they got their desert from? We know who the OP's citrus desert came from.

----------


## T&C Exotics

This is what Family Reptiles said on their facebook page when asked about the hatchlings " All babies have hatched and doing very well. We have been talking with other breeders of deserts and are not going say anything else until we more details on what we need to do next. Thank for all your support." Yet at the show they said that they could not identify a Desert in the clutch. So which is it? My comment to them was "With a comment such as your last one here it casts some serious doubt on the claims made. I am in no position to say what has happened but not a single question has been answered and you are now saying the babies hatched but you will not even show a picture of them to back this up? One single picture of them hatching and showing a desert in the clutch would stop most everyone from bothering you. I am now of the belief that this was all false based on your lack of communication on this." Both were made within the past 24 hours and there has been no reply at all from them. My mind is made up from this. I do not know how to link to the picture but if you search family reptiles on facebook you can find the pic and see the comments. All through out they said they would post pictures as soon as they hatched and then this.

----------

_Mike41793_ (08-20-2013)

----------


## jsmorphs2

Unfortunately this isn't Family Reptiles thread so you can't fault them for not posting updates here but judging by their coments on facebook I've lost my optimism about their clutch. I don't think they lied about anything but I have a feeling their girl might not be a Desert. Here is our Desert (PE line) at just under 1,000g. I just don't see the similarly.

http://demarcoreptiles.com/ourcollec...ales/h61fa2b3d

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-20-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (08-20-2013),_Mike41793_ (08-20-2013),_satomi325_ (08-20-2013),_T&C Exotics_ (08-20-2013)

----------


## eatgoodfood

cant say im surprised... hmmmm.... now for the OP's clutch to hatch!

----------

_Mike41793_ (08-20-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

I'm not surprised either. Their silence right now is speaking volumes lol

----------

_CD CONSTRICTORS_ (08-20-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (08-20-2013),_eatgoodfood_ (08-20-2013),hig (08-20-2013),_satomi325_ (08-20-2013)

----------


## zach_24_90

Family reptiles is pretty shady when you ask them about it. Tried talking to them in Daytona and they just change the subject.. i got a weird vibe about it..They are like robots they all greet you the same and ask all the same questions and I just enjoy real customer service not feeling like I'm just another number. Ever meet one of those people who you just get creeped out by like they are overly friendly and just act fake and put on the goodie goodie face when you interact with them? THAT is how family reptiles has been the few times I have met them. And now how this relates to the topic...they seem like they would want in on the party and be like "oh yeah? I've got one of those too" just to get some spotlight..Then after it's said and done we can't prove them wrong but they won't provide proof to back up their story either. Silence speaks volumes though.

----------


## joebad976

I asked the lady at their table about it and the she said they were not really sure if there were any deserts in the clutch. There was one that was kind of light and we just don't know so we are waiting for them to shed but they are doing very well. So I pretty much figured there probably were no deserts in the clutch. If it was me and I hatched one I would have had it at the show as the first desert hatched from a female desert. Hope the OP hits a couple.

I wonder if the OP and Family bought their "deserts" from the same person.

----------


## Mike41793

I think i asked family reptiles twice in this thread who they got their "desert" from but their response was "they're keeping the details private until other clutches hatch out etc. etc."

It's been almost 3 weeks, how long does it take for the babies to have their first shed...? 

They NEED to divulge the information to the herp community or more female deserts (actual deserts) will be bred and die.

----------


## CD CONSTRICTORS

I think the lack of a solid response gives us the answer we are all looking for. Why dart around the issue? Just spit it out- we did, or did not prove it out  :Confused:

----------


## T&C Exotics

As to the OP I do not dispute what they have said I only dispute what was said by Family Reptiles. Just wanted to toss that one out there. I am hoping the OP hatches some deserts from that female and I hope that we can all learn from it and be able to breed them.

----------


## dr del

Can we avoid the personal remarks and character assassination please?

It isn't particularly helpful at this stage I don't think.

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-21-2013),_CLSpider_ (08-22-2013),_Don_ (08-21-2013),JLC (08-22-2013),MarkS (08-21-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-21-2013)

----------


## Mephibosheth1

As I recall, this thread already got split into the Quarantine Room once....

Maybe we'll end up with a double play... :Razz:

----------


## chago11

Jsmorphs2 you can't compare your pic to their pic as it look like you had a good camera and good lighting. Put your snake in a tub with bad lighting and take a pic with your cell phone and than compare even both pics of your snake.

----------


## jsmorphs2

Still not the same. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

----------

_chago11_ (08-21-2013),MarkS (08-21-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

Lmao! There's no comparison, but i've been saying that from the beginning lol. I'm not gunna keep running my mouth though bc i don't wanna ruin the thread and piss off del

----------

_Kodieh_ (08-21-2013)

----------


## bkelley02

People slammed them at the beginning for posting too soon and now that they want to talk to others that say they have eggs hatching, or due to hatch from deserts before they report on the eggs, people are slamming them for waiting too long.  I"m anxious to find out as well, but can't we give them some time before bashing them one way or the other?

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-21-2013),_CLSpider_ (08-22-2013),h00blah (08-22-2013),JLC (08-22-2013)

----------


## T&C Exotics

> People slammed them at the beginning for posting too soon and now that they want to talk to others that say they have eggs hatching, or due to hatch from deserts before they report on the eggs, people are slamming them for waiting too long.  I"m anxious to find out as well, but can't we give them some time before bashing them one way or the other?


Normally I would completely agree with you but they said numerous times that they were going to post pictures as soon as the eggs hatched which was 21 days ago. No pictures were posted. That was said on Facebook. At the show they were saying they could not tell is any were Deserts. So which story is it? That is all directed at Family Reptiles not to the OP of this thread.

----------

_Mike41793_ (08-21-2013)

----------


## Mike41793

I said they were jumping the gun because after reading the posts then you'd have idiots hearing "oh deserts can be bred now!" and going and killing their females trying to breed them. I said it because i was concerned for those desert females out there that are at the mercy of their keepers. Thats exactly what i'm still concerned about now. If you goofed up, swallow your pride and just tell everyone that you didn't get any deserts.  Then, if i were them, i'd be getting a refund from whoever they got their "desert" from. I don't think it's at all amusing to be beating around the bush like this when it comes to animals lives being at stake.

----------


## MarkS

> Still not the same.


I just wanted to chime in and say that's a really pretty snake.   :Good Job:

----------


## West Coast Jungle

We also need to realize just because they didn't hatch deserts doesn't confirm that snake wasn't a desert, bad odds happen all the time. my buddy bred a butter to a normal and got all normals. I had 19 eggs from 3 clutches from spider to pastel and got 9 normals and in the last clutch finally hit 1 bumble bee. When you have not bred many clutches(or any) it's easy to swear by the odds but those of us that have hatched 100's of clutches know the numbers don't mean poo sometimes.
Not defending this situation by any means and I don't know Family reptiles whatsoever, just adding experience to the reality of the situation. I always tell folks the odds are the odds but at the end of the day it's still Vegas and nothing is certain. 

Don't count your chickens before they hatch  :Wink:

----------

_Annarose15_ (08-22-2013),Casey Hulse (08-22-2013),_chago11_ (08-21-2013),_CLSpider_ (08-22-2013),_don15681_ (08-21-2013),heylookitsjon (09-13-2013),_jben_ (08-22-2013),MarkS (08-21-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-22-2013),sho220 (08-21-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (08-22-2013),_Wes_ (08-22-2013)

----------


## Kodieh

I disagree completely, if it became gravid, laid eggs, and none are deserts it's definitely NOT a desert.  Because deserts die when gravid, and this one did not, but hatched no deserts it's not a desert.

At least, that's how I look at it. 

Snowing in Cuba. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4

----------


## West Coast Jungle

> I disagree completely, if it became gravid, laid eggs, and none are deserts it's definitely NOT a desert.  Because deserts die when gravid, and this one did not, but hatched no deserts it's not a desert.
> 
> At least, that's how I look at it. 
> 
> Snowing in Cuba. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


 I never said it was a Desert I said any experienced breeder will tell you sometimes odds suck and you get nothing. Many deserts have survived being gravid but slugged out, not died.

You can disagree but those are facts.

----------

_jben_ (08-22-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-22-2013)

----------


## CapeFearConstrictors

> I disagree completely, if it became gravid, laid eggs, and none are deserts it's definitely NOT a desert.  Because *deserts die when gravid*, and this one did not, but hatched no deserts it's not a desert.
> 
> At least, that's how I look at it. 
> 
> Snowing in Cuba. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4


This bolded part is simply not true.  Sure, a few desert females have been said to have died from being egg bound, but the vast majority of the accounts I've seen or heard of ended up with the female slugging out and being just fine afterwards.

This is how rumors and gossip spread.  I tell my 12 year old son "don't state something as fact unless you have proof to back it up."  That advice works well here too.

For what it's worth, I spoke with Family early on Saturday at Daytona and while they didn't come out and say it, I got the impression that they did, in fact, hatch some deserts in this clutch.  They mentioned that they changed up their husbandry a bit and that might have been a contributing factor.  He also mentioned that the female in question was 9 years old, which might also have been a contributing factor.  I'm willing to keep an open mind about it, but regardless of the outcome, the desert project has already, IMO, taken a fatal blow.

----------


## S.I.R.

Well said Josh!  Although I still have not completely given up on the desert project.  Not completely sure if I will try to breed my girls, but I know that if I do they are gonna be well sized mature animals before I even contemplate doing so.  Just my thought on the matter.

----------


## wwmjkd

> This bolded part is simply not true.  Sure, a few desert females have been said to have died from being egg bound, but the vast majority of the accounts I've seen or heard of ended up with the female slugging out and being just fine afterwards.
> 
> This is how rumors and gossip spread.  I tell my 12 year old son "don't state something as fact unless you have proof to back it up."  That advice works well here too.
> 
> For what it's worth, I spoke with Family early on Saturday at Daytona and while they didn't come out and say it, I got the impression that they did, in fact, hatch some deserts in this clutch.  They mentioned that they changed up their husbandry a bit and that might have been a contributing factor.  He also mentioned that the female in question was 9 years old, which might also have been a contributing factor.  I'm willing to keep an open mind about it, but regardless of the outcome, the desert project has already, IMO, taken a fatal blow.


have deserts even been around for 9 years? I'm simply curious about the outcome in both clutches, and I wish both the OP and family reptiles the best. I would say neither female that has been the subject of discussion in this thread stands out as a desert to me. but never having seen one in person, I can't say definitively. however, I was under the impression that it was a relatively recent mutation.

----------


## Freakie_frog

Let's try and stay civil. All opinions are welcome but if things strat getting personal we will shut it down..

As you were.

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-22-2013),PitOnTheProwl (08-22-2013)

----------


## bcr229

> have deserts even been around for 9 years?


Yes per http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm it was discovered in 2001/2002.

----------

MarkS (08-22-2013),_Mike41793_ (08-22-2013)

----------


## Freakie_frog

Last warning guys!

----------

_Mephibosheth1_ (08-22-2013)

----------


## Stewart_Reptiles

*Alright enough is enough you were warned.

If anyone has anything RELEVANT to post in this thread such as the OP or Family Reptiles please let the staff know and we will re-open the thread.

For the rest of you since you do not take multiple warnings seriously the thread is now being locked until further notice. 

You can always resume your side bickering here if you must http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...s-Thread/page3 (For those who do not have access to QT PM one of our admins to gain access.)*

----------

AIngram (08-22-2013),dgring (01-13-2014),_jben_ (08-22-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (08-22-2013),PitOnTheProwl (08-22-2013),_SquamishSerpents_ (08-23-2013)

----------

