# Site General > Rainbow Bridge >  RIP Freya & Ghost

## mandymg86

My boyfriend and I purchased two very young, very small ball pythons in October 2018. I joined this forum, and worked on learning everything I could. About 3 weeks before Christmas, I noticed bubbling from Freya's nose. I knew that it was RI. I took her to a highly recommended exotics vet immediately (Dr. Craig at Best Friends Animal Hospital in Swansea, IL) and we started her on antibiotics. She seemed to be getting better. Ghost then started showing RI symptoms the week before Christmas. I called and set up an appointment with the vet on December 26, the same morning of Freya's follow up appointment. Christmas morning, we check temps, change water, everything is looking good. Seriously, no issues at all with the snakes. We get home and Ghost had passed away. We were DISTRAUGHT. Freya was still seeming okay, so I left a voicemail with the vet and said that we'd be in with Freya the following morning. The next morning, I found her deceased in the tank. I called the vet in tears. Looking back, I should have had a necropsy done on both, but having been our first snakes, I was too distraught to do anything than give them a nice burial in my yard.

The last two months I've spent anxiously tearing apart our husbandry in my mind, trying to figure out where we went wrong. I've gone over everything a thousand times. I was scared to post here out of fear of judgement. My boyfriend and I completely redid our snake enclosure with better heat and humidity sources. We converted a spare bedroom in my house to be our "snake room". All of our snake housings and accessories have been scrubbed down with F10. We're extremely focused and paying attention to every tiny little detail. 

Losing our babies was so insanely hard, but I hope that our story will help other people. We just purchased a new (a bit older and quite a big bigger) female ball python yesterday. She's perfect, and we are working very hard to make sure her home is perfect for her.

----------

*Bogertophis* (01-25-2019)

----------


## KevinK

Did your vet diagnose this as RI?

...and what were your humidity levels/temps you kept them at when you noticed the symptoms?

----------


## MR Snakes

So sorry to hear of your loss. I'm looking at juveniles just so I can make sure they are a bit more established. I know my limitations and am worried about hatchlings and their fragility. Good luck with your new girl.

----------


## FollowTheSun

So sorry! :-( It sounds like you did everything right, and just had bad luck

----------


## MR Snakes

By any chance were they housed together?

----------


## mandymg86

> Did your vet diagnose this as RI?
> 
> ...and what were your humidity levels/temps you kept them at when you noticed the symptoms?


Yes, the vet diagnosed as RI. Our warm side was thermostat controlled at about 94-95* and we also used a heat gun to read the temps and they were rarely below 92* on the warm side. The cool side and ambient temps were low 70's at the time, which we did work to correct. Humidity hovered around 50%. I know now that our ambient temp was too low at the presentation of symptoms. We've completely corrected that with our new setup (ambient temp of 80*, warm side read 92* on the gun this morning).

----------


## mandymg86

> By any chance were they housed together?


They were. When we bought them (local, well-known exotics store) they had probably 20+ baby balls in a tank so we made the assumption that two baby balls would be fine to house together. I learned after the fact, from this forum actually, that they should not have been housed together. We will definitely NOT be housing together ever again. We bought a second tank and setup to use for quarantine/living quarters should we get a second snake.

I hope all the new owners read this and my mistakes can spare them the heartbreak we went through.

----------


## MR Snakes

My guesstimate would be that the warm side was too warm and the cool side too cold and that much of a difference lead to the RI. 88-90 on the warm and 80 on the cool seem to be the norm. Humidity 60-65% as well.

----------


## MR Snakes

Since they were hosed together they may have brought problems home with them also.

----------


## Bogertophis

> Yes, the vet diagnosed as RI. Our warm side was thermostat controlled at about 94-95* and we also used a heat gun to read the temps and they were rarely below 92* on the warm side. The cool side and ambient temps were low 70's at the time, which we did work to correct. Humidity hovered around 50%. I know now that our ambient temp was too low at the presentation of symptoms. We've completely corrected that with our new setup (ambient temp of 80*, warm side read 92* on the gun this morning).


Your high side sounds too hot also...but I'm not convinced this was your fault, at least not for both. Housing them together was a bad idea, you know that now?

I think a necropsy would have been very advisable, and especially without having taken that precaution, I wouldn't get another snake for "at least 6 mos. -in case".
You don't know what killed them...an RI can be a symptom, but not the whole picture, & obviously if your vet thought they were that sick (about to pass) they'd 
have done more themselves.  I would personally not set myself up for another heartbreak loss if this is something nasty & contagious that remains in your household.  Unfortunately, housing them together made for a double loss.  Do disinfect everything to the max, then do it a few more times, before adding any, & wait! 

I'm so sorry for your loss.  Rest in peace, Freya & Ghost.

----------

dr del (01-25-2019)

----------


## mandymg86

> Your high side sounds too hot also...but I'm not convinced this was your fault, at least not for both. Housing them together was a bad idea, you know that now?
> 
> I think a necropsy would have been very advisable, and especially without having taken that precaution, I wouldn't get another snake for "at least 6 mos. -in case".
> You don't know what killed them...an RI can be a symptom, but not the whole picture, & obviously if your vet thought they were that sick (about to pass) they'd 
> have done more themselves.  I would personally not set myself up for another heartbreak loss if this is something nasty & contagious that remains in your household.  Unfortunately, housing them together made for a double loss.  Do disinfect everything to the max, then do it a few more times, before adding any, & wait! 
> 
> I'm so sorry for your loss.  Rest in peace, Freya & Ghost.


Future snakes will 100% NOT be housed together. I do blame myself to an extent, just because we were trying to do the best we could and we really did research and took our time prior to getting the snakes, and I was very quick to get Freya to the vet as soon as we saw the RI symptoms, but I know now that our husbandry was not good enough. It wasn't the worst ever, but it wasn't good enough. I'm really thankful for this community, especially in the St. Louis area, because I've been able to make connections with veterinarians, experienced breeders/owners, and folks with masters degrees in entomology/zoology/biology who have been incredibly helpful.

----------

*Bogertophis* (01-25-2019)

----------


## bcr229

Given your timeline and the seller's husbandry I would not be at all surprised if the snakes were sick when you purchased them.

I would avoid that store in the future, goodness knows what other diseases they've got cooking in there.

----------

*Bogertophis* (01-25-2019),dr del (01-25-2019),_Godzilla78_ (01-25-2019),_KevinK_ (01-25-2019)

----------


## MR Snakes

Where did you purchase the snakes?

----------


## mandymg86

> Where did you purchase the snakes?


Tye-Dyed Iguana in Fairview Heights, IL. They're a small, local exotics store.

----------

_Godzilla78_ (01-25-2019)

----------


## MR Snakes

> Tye-Dyed Iguana in Fairview Heights, IL. They're a small, local exotics store.


Thanks. Sounds like they're not the best when it comes to husbandry if they had 20 BP's in one tank. That should've been a big red flag.

----------

_Godzilla78_ (01-25-2019)

----------


## MR Snakes

I'd also go back to the store and ask the manager if they've had any complaints/issues with any of the others in the tank? And see if the tank and any leftovers are still there? I'd bet there aren't any.

----------


## mandymg86

> Thanks. Sounds like they're not the best when it comes to husbandry if they had 20 BP's in one tank. That should've been a big red flag.


We're sticking with individual breeders from now on. My new girl came from a veterinarian who breeds about an hour from my hometown and came high recommended. Getting to see part of his collection and his proper racking system was a huge relief.

----------

*Bogertophis* (01-25-2019),_Godzilla78_ (01-25-2019)

----------


## Bogertophis

> Given your timeline and the seller's husbandry I would not be at all surprised if the snakes were sick when you purchased them.
> 
> I would avoid that store in the future, goodness knows what other diseases they've got cooking in there.


Yes, that's what I was getting at as well.  While your husbandry wasn't perfect, I think they were not healthy when you got them.  Painful lesson, wishing you 
MUCH better luck in the future.

----------


## Toad37

Have u heard of the nidovirus? In a nutshell its an incurable RI. U can Google to get more information but that's kinda what this sounds like. Sorry for your loss.

----------

*Bogertophis* (01-25-2019)

----------


## MR Snakes

Nidovirus

https://www.stengleinlab.org/blog/20...virus_FAQ.html

----------

dr del (01-25-2019),mandymg86 (01-26-2019)

----------


## MR Snakes

With 20 or more BP's in a tank, who knows how many were sick.

*How is this disease transmitted?*  Our laboratory has found virus in the oral/nasal cavity, lungs, and  feces.  Therefore, transmission is thought to occur by direct or  indirect exposure to respiratory secretions (similar to the common cold)  or to feces from infected snakes.

----------

mandymg86 (01-26-2019)

----------


## Godzilla78

Definitely buy from a reputable breeder and avoid little reptile stores and Craigslist rehomes.  Ive lucked out with Craigslist and picked up some nice pythons, but it is a major risk and Im never doing it ever again, to avoid possible infections.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

*Bogertophis* (01-25-2019),mandymg86 (01-26-2019)

----------


## Godzilla78

Im so sorry you had to go through this, but on the positive side, you learned some important lessons.
Btw, there are quite a few breeders here in the forum that can provide you with snakes, or point you in the right direction to another breeder that has what you are looking for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

----------

mandymg86 (01-26-2019)

----------


## Team Slytherin

I'm so sorry for your loss! As others have mentioned, it sounds likely they were both sick when you brought them home and there was no way for you to know that. We all make mistakes and you guys sound like great keepers who are working to learn the best ways of keeping your animals healthy. No one could ask more of you!

Very sorry your first experience was a heartbreaking one!

----------

*Bogertophis* (01-25-2019),dr del (01-25-2019),mandymg86 (01-26-2019)

----------


## mandymg86

> I'm so sorry for your loss! As others have mentioned, it sounds likely they were both sick when you brought them home and there was no way for you to know that. We all make mistakes and you guys sound like great keepers who are working to learn the best ways of keeping your animals healthy. No one could ask more of you!
> 
> Very sorry your first experience was a heartbreaking one!


I would never wish the experience on anyone else, but it truly has made be a better keeper, and a little bit nuts about husbandry (to the point of obsession). I'm always checking temps and humidity, doing as much research as I can. My new girl ate her first meal on Sunday like a champ and seems to be settling in very nicely. Hoping for a nice, long, healthy life for her (and our future snakes, because you know you can't just have one).

----------


## Danger noodles

> I would never wish the experience on anyone else, but it truly has made be a better keeper, and a little bit nuts about husbandry (to the point of obsession). I'm always checking temps and humidity, doing as much research as I can. My new girl ate her first meal on Sunday like a champ and seems to be settling in very nicely. Hoping for a nice, long, healthy life for her (and our future snakes, because you know you can't just have one).


Lol my reasoning for having two was that I can alternate what days I hold them so I can grab a snake any day of the week. Now my excuse for the next ones are, well I just love them. Lol

----------

