# Ball Pythons > BP Morphs & Genetics >  Harlequin Wide-Stripe

## Drewp

A friend of mine has a 1.1 pair of harlequin wide-stripes that he bought at the 2009 Canadian Reptile Breeders Expo (CRBE) from a breeder who attended the show from the US.  They are awesome looking and I've been doing some research on them for the past couple hours... most threads end in "more breeding needs to be done."

I found a youtube video of a harlequin wide-stripe x mojave and it was awesome looking... but haven't had much luck finding info on how clutches have turned out or if anyone has tried to prove out a line of them... an old website said something about a harlequin side-stripe when bred together but no pictures or links or anything and it hadn't been updated in a long time.

About a month ago I picked up this 1600g virgin 2008 female... looks very similar, but his are a little darker on the sides.  Either way this girl was a steal for only $150!  :Good Job: 







Sooo anyways I'm just beating an old drum here but has anybody got these, working with them, have a picture of a super, etc?  Any info on them would be much appreciated  :Smile:

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## Drewp

130 Views, No Replies... nobody has anything to say about these?  haha

Maybe its a secret.  :Wink: 

I've kept doing research and to the best of my knowledge these are a co-dominant mutation just waiting to be officially proven.  

A lot of people say they're just normals... but search harlequin mojave on youtube... (probably not supposed to link it as its not my video?) stripe or not, that snake has more going on than a regular mojave.  

Any clutches I've been able to find pics of from harlequin x normal breedings show a clear difference in the offspring between normals and harlequins.  

I'm trying to decide whether I should pair this girl up with my Lemon Blast male or do a joint breeding project with my buddy to see if we can hit a super.  I haven't seen much on harlequin x harlequin breeding.  Still a while yet before any breeding goes on so I'm sure I'll change my mind 4352355 times and put her with something totally different, but in any case I would love to read more about this "morph."

Cheers

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## luna13

a buddy of mine who is on this forum has harlequins and he has a mojo harlequin, i had never heard of it til i went to his house and they r pretty hott....as for any more info im sorry i dont much more about them

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Drewp (05-06-2011)

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## python_addict

i have a male that has the same belly as that one along with a female that should breed next year should i try proving something out?? ok what im asking is would it be worth it to try and prove a line out of them?

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## wax32

*This:*




> do a joint breeding project with my buddy to see if we can hit a super....

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Drewp (05-06-2011)

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## Aes_Sidhe

Correct me if I'm wrong but....  is a harlequin genetic?? I believe is natural random occurrence... something like "non genetic reduced" or like ringers or classic jungle... Or they get Proved already ??

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## Ntume

On the dutch forums there's a lady with a yellowbelly harlequin, but it may possibly be a fire harlequin because of a multi sired clutch.

Her female ovulated again this year, and some more breeding trials need to be done I guess.

Here's a picture of the animal she now calls ' quinstripe '

**picture removed**

Copyright Bumblebee (Jamie)

Groet,

Yaron

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_Anya_ (05-20-2011),_CLSpider_ (05-07-2011),Drewp (05-06-2011),green farmer (05-14-2011),_koloo921_ (05-06-2011),_monk90222_ (05-06-2011)

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## chago11

I think it's a random occurence here is a thread that I started with pics of my first clutch I think my female is a widestripe http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...85#post1546685

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Drewp (05-06-2011)

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## Drewp

> Correct me if I'm wrong but....  is a harlequin genetic?? I believe is natural random occurrence... something like "non genetic reduced" or like ringers or classic jungle... Or they get Proved already ??


You are right, as I stated they are not a proven morph.  Thats why I am looking for more info on anyone who has attempted or is trying to work with them.  I know VMS Herps had a line that they were/are? trying to prove out and some of the offspring they were getting looked like the parents.  There are some birthing records including pics that can be dug up for those interested.  

My girl doesn't look as promising as the pair my buddy owns, or a lot of pictures I've seen of them... her colour is normal, but her stripe is very thick similar to a lot of them I've seen.  That being said, in the Harlequin mojave video, they show what they call a harlequin and it looks totally normal coloured with less of a stripe than mine.  So who knows whats what.

They seem like they have so much potential, I can't believe more people aren't working with them.  Prove them out as dom or co-dom and you've got one of the coolest pattern mutations out there that has barely been crossed into anything yet.  Mojave and now maybe yellowbelly crosses are all that I've seen... and no super that we know of, other than apparently "Harlequin Side-Stripe" which I can't find pics of.  Thanks for that pic of the yellowbelly cross btw Yaron, that is an awesome snake.  Could be fire x yelllowbelly but either way I want one of those haha.

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## Drewp

> i have a male that has the same belly as that one along with a female that should breed next year should i try proving something out?? ok what im asking is would it be worth it to try and prove a line out of them?


I think if proven out they'd be a valuable morph, especially if they were dom or co-dominant.  Genetic Stripes are fairly popular and take twice as long to work with being a recessive gene.   

I'm not sure what exactly you are referring to on the belly pic, looks pretty normal to me.  Post up some pics.  :Smile:

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## Drewp

> I think it's a random occurence here is a thread that I started with pics of my first clutch I think my female is a widestripe http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...85#post1546685


Thats a popular opinion, your pair looks awesome - can't believe you got all normal looking snakes with barely any striping (in comparison) out of them.  Maybe you've got something recessive there or horrible odds or maybe those are just crazy looking normals... or maybe they all are!  

In any case thanks for posting and good luck with your projects!

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## Simple Man

I don't know how relevent this is but I've read several instances that Harlequin is just a type of pattern. I haven't read that it has shown to be genetic. Take that with a grain of salt. I read a lot and sponge info and that's something I've read on multiple occasions. I don't have personal experience on the matter. I'll be following this with some curiousity myself.

Regards,

B

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Drewp (05-06-2011)

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## DemmBalls

Here is a site that I thought was interesting.

http://www.vmsherp.com/ViewWideStripeBalls.htm

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (05-06-2011),Drewp (05-06-2011)

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## Drewp

Thanks, I came across that one as well.  You can find pictures of their clutches on there if you dig enough.  The site says they are retired but still have lots of their animals, I wonder if they're still working with these at all.  They would have breeding size females by now if they held any back.

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## python_addict

i think who ever is hiding the side stripe from us needs to share because those patterns would amaze me in pastel, clown, lesser/butter, yellowbelly and albino forms omg i would spend every last penny on an albino side stripe

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## EmberBall

Gave me a few eggs in 2010.  Unfortunatly, she never bounced back from laying and ended up passing away :Sad: 

I was very bummed, I have only lost two Ball Pythons over about 14 years.

Out of the few eggs she laid, only two hatched, both Pastels that looked fairly normal.  The male is a Pastel, the female that hatched out is a Pastel YB.  I held both back and will probaby end up breeding them together to see if anything cool pops out.  

Dave

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Drewp (05-08-2011)

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## EmberBall

I forgot to add these pics of her babies.  She was bred to my Pastel YB male.

Dave

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## Drewp

Thats too bad that she passed on, she was a looker!  Looks just like my girl.

Good luck with the sibs.

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## meeistom

Here's the deal with harlequin wide stripes.   These are the things I personally know to be fact.  

1. yes it's genetic and it has been proven.  it's an incomplete dominant morph.  when bred to a normal you get 25%-50% wide stripes

2. it does not work with pastels but if you breed it to super pastels it does work.  Basically if you breed a harlequin to a pastel you get 50% pastels and 50% normals.  If you bred it to a super you get at least 25% pastel harlequins.  The last clutch was 6 eggs and 3 were pastel wide stripes.  I know for sure it works with fires, anything that makes B.E.L., yellow bellies, and albino's.  The males have been bred to about 26 different snakes over 2 seasons.  

3. there are 3 lines of wide stripe out there.  VMS/Pro Exotics line, a Canadian line, and a line from Italy.  

I bought 4 wide stripes from VMS 2 males and 2 females.  All of them have been used and all produced wide stripe offspring.   I know the person now owns the 4 and there offspring and they are working on a few projects that might be shown off this year but most likely next year.

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cfirth (10-10-2013),_chago11_ (05-11-2011),Drewp (05-11-2011),_jsmorphs2_ (05-16-2011),_lk_holla_ (05-10-2011)

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## EmberBall

What do you think about the female I posted a picture of?  I got a pastel male and pastel yb female from her...do you think they are worth breeding together?

Dave

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## dr del

HI,




> Here's the deal with harlequin wide stripes.   These are the things I personally know to be fact.  
> 
> 1. yes it's genetic and it has been proven.  it's an incomplete dominant morph.  when bred to a normal you get 25%-50% wide stripes
> 
> 2. it does not work with pastels but if you breed it to super pastels it does work.  Basically if you breed a harlequin to a pastel you get 50% pastels and 50% normals.  If you bred it to a super you get at least 25% pastel harlequins.  The last clutch was 6 eggs and 3 were pastel wide stripes.  I know for sure it works with fires, anything that makes B.E.L., yellow bellies, and albino's.  The males have been bred to about 26 different snakes over 2 seasons.  
> 
> 3. there are 3 lines of wide stripe out there.  VMS/Pro Exotics line, a Canadian line, and a line from Italy.  
> 
> I bought 4 wide stripes from VMS 2 males and 2 females.  All of them have been used and all produced wide stripe offspring.   I know the person now owns the 4 and there offspring and they are working on a few projects that might be shown off this year but most likely next year.


Can you share some more information about this?


dr del

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## Drewp

Thats cool... thanks so much for posting that... any additional info you could provide would be amazing.  If its a proven morph, shouldn't it be more "known of" among ball python breeders?  You seem to know more about them than I've been able to figure out through countless hours of searching the internet.  Do you know if there is a super form?  VMS' website claims that there is a Harlequin Side-Stripe, which is the super form... but other than that I can't find any info on Harlequin x Harlequin breeding.  I assume since you said incomplete Dominant (and not co-dominant) that there is no known super form?

Has anyone tried breeding different lines together?  My friend has a VMS line male and my female I believe to be a different line (probably the Canadian line you're referring to).  This is solely based on the colours, the VMS line look a lot darker and are more obvious looking that its probably a morph.  Where as my girl looks a lot more like a normal colour-wise, but displays the big bold wide stripe... and the saddles are pretty funky looking, too.

Very interested in any more info at all that you could share.

Cheers

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## meeistom

They won't make wide stripes.  It's a visual or it's not a wide stripe.  Siblings don't carry the gene for it.  They are very nice though.  





> What do you think about the female I posted a picture of?  I got a pastel male and pastel yb female from her...do you think they are worth breeding together?
> 
> Dave

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## meeistom

Never seen a super form or bred a stripe x stripe.  My buddy hasn't either.  Next year the females will be big enough to bred so we will find out next year.  

I know more because I bought some from VMS and bred the males last year to a lot of females.  I tried to sell the offspring and no one was interested at all.  After bringing them to several shows and getting no where with them I sold the remaining snakes to a friend as he wanted a cheap project to work on.  He did some more work and now I have more information.  Honestly I had no idea anyone even cared about the wides at all. 

I know about the different lines from talking to folks at shows and talking to guys from Canada and Italy.  I have family in both areas and they know i'm into reptiles and with the internet we got to emailing and exchanging info.

No idea on trying to bred the different lines I haven't heard of this happening. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened.   


I think the reason it's no more "known" is very simply put they aren't too special.  There are lots of normals out there that have a very similar appearance.  In the grand scheme of morphs out there they aren't that different from a normal.  Some of the combos are nice but again if you can't sell them at a decent price you end up with lots of pretty pets.  Lets say you bred a wide to a mojave you get 5 eggs and 1 is a normal wide and 1 is a stripe mojave.  You now have to market the stripe mojave and show it's genetic.  Easier said then done.  It just may not be worth the time and effort.  Remember not everyone thinks they are all that special.   






> Thats cool... thanks so much for posting that... any additional info you could provide would be amazing.  If its a proven morph, shouldn't it be more "known of" among ball python breeders?  You seem to know more about them than I've been able to figure out through countless hours of searching the internet.  Do you know if there is a super form?  VMS' website claims that there is a Harlequin Side-Stripe, which is the super form... but other than that I can't find any info on Harlequin x Harlequin breeding.  I assume since you said incomplete Dominant (and not co-dominant) that there is no known super form?
> 
> Has anyone tried breeding different lines together?  My friend has a VMS line male and my female I believe to be a different line (probably the Canadian line you're referring to).  This is solely based on the colours, the VMS line look a lot darker and are more obvious looking that its probably a morph.  Where as my girl looks a lot more like a normal colour-wise, but displays the big bold wide stripe... and the saddles are pretty funky looking, too.
> 
> Very interested in any more info at all that you could share.
> 
> Cheers

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Drewp (05-11-2011)

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## Drewp

I don't know, I think they look awesome and should make some killer combos... if a super is produced I think they'll start to get some more attention (assuming its awesome looking lol)

Either way though I'm stoked to possibly get to work with this project this year.   :Very Happy: 

If you've got any pictures of the different crosses I would love to see them.  The harlequin mojave looks amazing, and the (possible) harlequin yellowbelly posted in this thread.  You said theres albino widestripes?  Those must be killer...

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## chago11

> Here's the deal with harlequin wide stripes.   These are the things I personally know to be fact.  
> 
> 1. yes it's genetic and it has been proven.  it's an incomplete dominant morph.  when bred to a normal you get 25%-50% wide stripes
> 
> 2. it does not work with pastels but if you breed it to super pastels it does work.  Basically if you breed a harlequin to a pastel you get 50% pastels and 50% normals.  If you bred it to a super you get at least 25% pastel harlequins.  The last clutch was 6 eggs and 3 were pastel wide stripes.  I know for sure it works with fires, anything that makes B.E.L., yellow bellies, and albino's.  The males have been bred to about 26 different snakes over 2 seasons.  
> 
> 3. there are 3 lines of wide stripe out there.  VMS/Pro Exotics line, a Canadian line, and a line from Italy.  
> 
> I bought 4 wide stripes from VMS 2 males and 2 females.  All of them have been used and all produced wide stripe offspring.   I know the person now owns the 4 and there offspring and they are working on a few projects that might be shown off this year but most likely next year.


You seem to know a lot about the wide stripe what do you think about my male and female that a posted?

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## meeistom

There are 13 100% het for albino wide stripes out there that i know of.  Never seen an albino stripe but VMS might have some they aren't letting anyone know about.  Next year if the odds are good there will be some albinos.  My friend may or may not let me post pics of his stuff.  He plans to show them off next year when he has more of them.  This I can say some of the combo's are really cool others not so much.

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Drewp (05-13-2011)

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## meeistom

Keep breeding the adults together and see if your next clutch produces some wide stripes.  You can also try to bred the male to a few normal females and see what comes out of those as well.  They may not be wide stripes and just striped normals. 





> You seem to know a lot about the wide stripe what do you think about my male and female that a posted?

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_chago11_ (05-14-2011)

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## ahunt037

> to me this snake looks almost identical to my female normal purchased from petsmart(ya i learned my lesson never buying there again) also i have noticed that my girl is extremely light compared to other normals i have seen but then again everyone has a normal that to them isnt normal right?
> OP Photo
> My Photo

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## Drewp

Looks pretty solid ahunt!  You might have something there.  My female hasn't been bred yet and therefore isn't proven genetic, I bought her as a normal.  From the pics I've seen of them and comparing to my friends 1.1 pair though, I think she'll prove out as a wide-stripe...  but only time and breeding will tell for sure.

Chago's pair both look way more promising than either of ours and he got all normal looking snakes out of his clutch, so its really a toss up unless you've acquired a genetic Harlequin Wide-Stripe from VMS.  

meeistrom I hope your friend will share some pics, thanks again for all of the info.

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## Drewp

Meeistrom do you know if your friend has tried Harlequin X Pin or Lemon Blast?  You said that Harlequin x pastel hasn't yielded any pastel wide-stripes, but super pastel x harlequin has.  Is it possible that the pastel clutches were just poor odds?  Or have there been too many to call it that?  I'm still on the fence about putting the Lemon Blast to my female... I'm thinking more and more about doing a joint breeding project with my buddy's male from VMS.  Cheers man.

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## meeistom

No pins yet, but a spider was done and out of 4 eggs 1 spider, 2 normals, and one really odd looking spider.  Could it be a spider wide maybe have to wait a few years as it's a female.  Or it could be a really bad looking spider too.  

In terms of bad odds anything is possible but 2 males were bred to 5 pastel females and not 1 produced a wide stride or a pastel wide stripe.  

Here's the list of morphs the wide stripes were bred to: pastel, super pastel, spider, black pastel, sable, mojave, lesser, fire, yellow belly, woma, albino, and ghost.  I'm not saying that all of thee combo's exist but that was what the 5 males were bred to.  Some hit others didn't but that's how the odds work.

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## meeistom

I forgot to add a B.E.L., and an enchi to the list as well. The males were busy this year. I also forgot to add the females did not breed this year as they were way under weight.  I honestly bred them too young and they needed this year off.

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> I think the reason it's no more "known" is very simply put they aren't too special.  There are lots of normals out there that have a very similar appearance.  In the grand scheme of morphs out there they aren't that different from a normal.  Some of the combos are nice but again if you can't sell them at a decent price you end up with lots of pretty pets.  Lets say you bred a wide to a mojave you get 5 eggs and 1 is a normal wide and 1 is a stripe mojave.  You now have to market the stripe mojave and show it's genetic.  Easier said then done.  It just may not be worth the time and effort.  Remember not everyone thinks they are all that special.



Does the "quinstripe" that Ntume posted a picture of (on the 1st page) look like anything you've produced with the wide-stripes? If so, I bet that alone, and/or that with maybe some pastel or Enchi in it, would go a loooong way towards marketing the wide-stripes ...

I mean, you think about it, there are quite a few morphs that are various degrees of unexciting on their own, but unlock some really cool stuff when combined -- I think sometimes it's the combos that really "make" the morph marketing-wise ...

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## meeistom

Yes and no.  Mine was way darker but the female YB is insanely dark but so that has more to do with the dam/sire then anything else.  The head is the same pattern though.  





> Does the "quinstripe" that Ntume posted a picture of (on the 1st page) look like anything you've produced with the wide-stripes? If so, I bet that alone, and/or that with maybe some pastel or Enchi in it, would go a loooong way towards marketing the wide-stripes ...
> 
> I mean, you think about it, there are quite a few morphs that are various degrees of unexciting on their own, but unlock some really cool stuff when combined -- I think sometimes it's the combos that really "make" the morph marketing-wise ...

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_Serpent_Nirvana_ (05-15-2011)

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## Serpent_Nirvana

Interesting ... Well, if that is a consistently reproduce-able combo, that'd be enough to make me want to pick up a wide-stripe (and yellowbelly for that matter  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  )

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## meeistom

It is reproducible but the odds are very low.  Wide combo's are 1 if your lucky in a clutch.  Out of over 25 clutch's this season only 7 produced a combo.  There are still another 6 to go but those are not good odds at all.

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> It is reproducible but the odds are very low.  Wide combo's are 1 if your lucky in a clutch.  Out of over 25 clutch's this season only 7 produced a combo.  There are still another 6 to go but those are not good odds at all.



Hmm ... Interesting. 

Noticed any pattern to the sex of wides or combos?

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## dr del

Hi,

Is it possible that what we see as wide stripe is actually a polygenic combo?

Something we cannot visually distinguish in the non-widestripe animals?


dr del

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## meeistom

Hmm that's a very interesting theory.  I will have to discuss this with a few of my buddies who are genetics experts.  Just not sure how to prove or disprove this.  You've given me something to think about.  





> Hi,
> 
> Is it possible that what we see as wide stripe is actually a polygenic combo?
> 
> Something we cannot visually distinguish in the non-widestripe animals?
> 
> 
> dr del

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## fishboyUK

I think there are also various types of what people would describe as harlequin, some being dominant/codominantly genetically inheritable, some perhaps only polygenetically. 

I believe that is where the confusion over inheritability arises.

I know I keep seeing snakes being described as harlequins that to me look similar in pattern type, but that is it. No melty sides, not enough black, colour wrong....etc.

In the same way a non-genetic very reduced pattern/banded could look like a type 2 woma, but isn't.

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## Drewp

Polygenetic, you say?  That is definitely an interesting concept and could explain why the odds have been so poor with the wide-stripe clutches.  Unlike most dominant or co-dominant mutations, there could be more than one gene at play... so rather than 50% odds you've got more like 25%, or even less - could be impossible to determine the real % chance without knowing how many genes are affected on the allele.  The gene should still be inheritable by the offspring, though.  Is that right or am I confused here...

I believe with Classic Jungles (mind you I haven't dug very deep with them) the genetics are not transferrable and it is just a fluke that one hatches out.  To my knowledge there hasn't been any success in trying to breed the mutation as a dominant, co-dominant or recessive trait.  I'd imagine there was a lot of work put into trying to prove them out...

Then theres all these other wacky genes like the spector x yellowbelly = superstripe, which then produces both spectors and yellowbellies...  Desert females not producing... Caramels hatching out kinked at random... etc etc.

I'm no genetics expert lol I've only been learning about them through ball python websites for the past year or two, but I find it all so compelling... so if anyone would care to explain this polygenetic theory in more detail it would be much appreciated.  Are there any other morphs thought to be polygenetic?

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## dr del

Hi,

That's another point - it wouldn't have to be on the same allele.  :Cool: 

Think of it like NERDs statments about the het pied gene having a visual effect in some combos.

You might end up that what we call harlequins are actually double heterozygous  (or homozygous ) for two (visual or non-visual ) mutations and that it is sheer fluke there is a visual effect when the two are in the same animal.

Which potentially leads to some seriously nerfed up results from breeding two visual animals together;

Results

6.25%Normal
12.5%het. Harequin type A (non visual )
6.25%Harelquin type B (non visual )
6.25%Harlequin type A (non visual )
12.5%het. Harlequin type B (non visual )
12.5%Harlequin type A, het Harelquin type B ( visual? )
12.5%Harlequin type B, het Harelquin type B ( visual? )
6.25%Harlequin type A, Harelquin type B ( visual? )
25%het. Harlequin type A, het. Harlequin type B (visual? )

Which would give 56.25% possibly visual animals from breeding to harlequins together. Or 25% if only the double homozygous was a visual expressed combination.

Either way the chances per egg would be different than we would have expected but would need a large sample to try and prove those were the odds anyone was actually getting.

But I'm guessing it cannot be as simple as only the double homozygous being visual as that would mean breeding two harlequins together would give 100% harlequins as a result.

If it was allelic (sp? ) then breeding two visual parents together should give 25% harlequins as a result. But you also couldn't get harlequins from breeding to an animal that didn't have one of the genes.

And all this is based on a blind hope it is that simple and involve a combination of the those concepts or more than 2 genes.  :Razz: 

Excuse me I think I need to go lie down with a cloth over my head till the hurting stops.


dr del

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Drewp (05-16-2011)

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## Drewp

I think I'll opt for an herbal remedy.... how much more confused could I really get.  :Razz: 

Thanks though, that theory is really something else.

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## DemmBalls

Here is a "Dinker" that I picked up at a local pet store a few months ago.  I'm begining to wonder if he could be a Harlequin?







Thoughts?

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## Drewp

I was talking to my buddy who purchased his pair from VMS, he told me that there are a couple of distinguishing characteristics that they told him about at the time of purchase.

-"Key-holes" normally present in the 1st 1/3rd of the stripe (starting at the head), he wasn't sure if he was told that they all absolutely have to have them or if it is just common.



-Two black stripes, one on each side, running down the base of the tail and encompassing the tip of the tail.  (In the picture, it only shows one side... and my thumb is covering part of it.  But there are dark parallel stripes that join at the base of the tail.)  Again he wasn't sure if this is a must-have on a wide-stripe or more of a "het-pied marker" kind of deal.



-They often exhibit "floating alien heads" at the bottom 1/3 of the snake.



- A blushed out head... as you can see above.

The snakes that my buddy owns also exhibit these traits and he talked to the people from VMS for quite a while when he bought his pair, which is where he learned about these traits... I would imagine that there are plenty of normals who would show these patterns as well, so who knows if its just a coincidental thing or if these are some of the things to look for?  I figured it was worth posting anyways.

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## jsmorphs2

Interesting thread. We have a dinker Harlequin girl. She has only produced one offspring (pictured below) which we kept as a hold back so this is still in the works. Last season she was paired with a yellowbelly but slugged out. When we first got her from Outback I contacted Dan Wolfe -  http://dwherp.com/Photo%20Gallery.htm - He has a morph he calls a Rio, (which is very cool!) and I wanted his opinion on this girl. I don't have belly shots but she has the "railroad" makings down her entire belly.






Hold back dinker female with very rich, dark colors.





Here is another striped dinker project. We are thinking a whole different direction with this girl though, not Harlequin. Her colors are completely different.





To the OP: Your new girl looks like a great dinker project.  :Good Job:  Could prove out for you.

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Drewp (05-16-2011)

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## Robyn@SYR

I will chime in here only briefly, busy day here at PE and SYR : )

We started working with some "wild stripe" stuff back in the 90's. The epitome of the dinker project, at the time. We hatched a couple of fully striped babies, but this was before the Ball python morph craze, so I didn't recognize the significance of it. I sold one of those full PE stripes to Tracy at VPI, way back when. 

We raised some, including partial stripes, and while VMS Sean was working here at PE, he picked up some of that line. 

I don't know when they became "Harlequin", but I have never referred to them that way. At this point, we just call them PE Stripes. 

I STILL don't understand how they work. There is a great variance in the amount of striping, from full stripe, to partial stripes, to no stripes. That keyhole feature comes into play often as well. But it is all so unpredictable. 

We really started making some progress with our "Double Het Ghost PE Stripes". We bred a PE Stripe (not a fantastic one, just a mostly striped one) to a Ghost/Hypo. Those babies all looked normal. After raising them up for 6 or 7 years, we bred them back together and got PE Stripe Ghosts. The striping still varies animal to animal, or doesn't appear at all. Some of those Ghost PE Stripes are pictured below, along with some of the better PE Stripes. 

We have also done Pin PE Stripes and Lesser PE Stripes...

Ghost PE Stripe from 2010- from normal appearing Double Het parents:




The best "plain" PE Stripes appear like this:

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (05-16-2011),Drewp (05-16-2011),_jsmorphs2_ (05-16-2011)

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## Robyn@SYR

This is where it turned weird a couple of years ago. We started hatching out stuff from this same Double Het Ghost PE Stripe line that started looking like Tri Stripes. 

hatched a couple of years ago:




And the best one yet, hatched in 2010:


Now I REALLY don't know what is going on : )

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (05-16-2011),Drewp (05-16-2011),_jsmorphs2_ (05-16-2011)

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## jsmorphs2

> And the best one yet, hatched in 2010:
> 
> 
> Now I REALLY don't know what is going on : )



So this came from breeding double het PE Stripe/Hypos?! WOW!  :Surprised:  Makes me consider breeding our "harlequin" girl with our male hypo next season instead of a yellowbelly and holding on to the clutch.

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## Aes_Sidhe

> The best "plain" PE Stripes appear like this:
> 
> 
> And the best one yet, hatched in 2010:


Geeez Man That Stuff is Hot... sometimes This what turn me on in BP the most "wild type" colors but crazy pattern variations.... 

Those are awesome Animals  :Good Job:  :Good Job:  :Good Job:

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## Drewp

Lol oh my... this is getting interesting

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## RetiredJedi

> ...Here's a picture of the animal she now calls ' quinstripe '
> 
> **picture removed**...


Beautiful!!!! I want one!!!

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## Robyn@SYR

That looks like a Desert PE Stripe. Cool looking. 

I will try and take a couple more pics today, including a Ghost Tri Stripe-ish animal.

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## Drewp

> This is where it turned weird a couple of years ago. We started hatching out stuff from this same Double Het Ghost PE Stripe line that started looking like Tri Stripes. 
> 
> And the best one yet, hatched in 2010:


On the VMS Website, they are listed as a co-dominant mutation with a super form called "Side-stripe."

Do you think your snake could be a super form of the wide-stripe?

You had said that you sometimes produce these (harlequins/PE's) without the stripe... I'm wondering, could the Double het Ghost PE Stripes have been a co-dom PE stripe(not showing the stripe) het ghost as opposed to having double het animals?  And this animal pictured is in fact a super form of the PE Stripe/harlequin, 66% pos het ghost?

Haha I'm reaching here but its the only way I can piece it together that makes any sense... unless theres more than one line being played with here, yours being recessive and others being co-dom or polymorphic or what-have-you.

Maybe I'm confused on what the breeding was that produced that snake, if I'm reading right it was Double het Ghost PE Stripe x Double het Ghost PE Stripe?

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## Robyn@SYR

Yes, the Ghost PE Stripe is from a Double Het Ghost PE Stripe to Double Het Ghost PE Stripe, where both parents look normal.

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Drewp (05-16-2011)

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## Drewp

> Yes, the Ghost PE Stripe is from a Double Het Ghost PE Stripe to Double Het Ghost PE Stripe, where both parents look normal.


And the Tri-Stripes as well?

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## meeistom

Well i took a look at all the wides today and all of them have 3 features in common.  

1. blushed out heads
2. each side of there tails has a black line kinda like the "het pied" maker
3. dot in the stripe on lower part of the body

Also saw some newly hatched combo's that I wasn't even aware of.  Again some very cool stuff and some not so much.  Next year will be an interesting season for sure as my friend is devoting all his females to the project.  

So we now have het albino's, het pied's, and het clown wide stripes.

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Drewp (05-16-2011)

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## Drewp

Meeistom the line you're working with is co-dominant, correct?  And were they acquired through VMS?  Oh an when you say a dot in the lower part of the body, do you mean closest to the tail or head?

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## meeistom

The line was from VMS from what i've seen it's not a co dom or dom it's an incomplete dom.   The dots are on the lower half toward the tail.  The combos don't have it but all the non combos have it.  Next season at least 2 female wide stripes will be bred to wide stripe males so we should find out more info then.

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## Drewp

> The line was from VMS from what i've seen it's not a co dom or dom it's an incomplete dom.   The dots are on the lower half toward the tail.  The combos don't have it but all the non combos have it.  Next season at least 2 female wide stripes will be bred to wide stripe males so we should find out more info then.


Its strange to me that your friend has hatched 1st gen visual offspring, but the info that Robyn@SYR has posted indicates that they have a recessive gene at play.

You got your original wide-stripes from VMS and VMS got their original wides from PE.  Yet it seems like theres 2 different lines being "dinked" with.

Maybe there is more than one morph involved here, or maybe its not that easy.  :Confused:

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## Simple Man

Awesome thread. Thanks everyone for adding info and thanks Dwerp for starting it. I just read from where I last did and all sorts of great info is in here.  :Good Job: 

Regards,

B

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## meeistom

I have to agree there does seem to be more at play here.  Going to take a long time to sort this out.  We have second and third gen animals and each generation has produced wides.  In two years we will have about 14 females and over 30 males so the pool will be bigger and hopefully more answers.  





> Its strange to me that your friend has hatched 1st gen visual offspring, but the info that Robyn@SYR has posted indicates that they have a recessive gene at play.
> 
> You got your original wide-stripes from VMS and VMS got their original wides from PE.  Yet it seems like theres 2 different lines being "dinked" with.
> 
> Maybe there is more than one morph involved here, or maybe its not that easy.

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## Robyn@SYR

We have seen it in first gen as well. But also from "hets" that are "normal looking".

But what is "normal looking"? Is a single two inch section of striping really normal, or is it just a really low visual of the PE Stripe?

I see more striping in lots of completely normal and unrelated animals than I do in some of our "het" PE Stripes. That is what makes it confusing. 

It definitely exhibits a dominant style production, but it is so wildly inconsistent and fairly unpredictable that it leaves me confused.

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## meeistom

Well I know someone who has a female we sold as a normal from a wide stripe clutch. She was bred this year and laid 4 nice eggs that are due to hatch very soon.  That might help answer if the non visual are in fact "hets"  If a wide stripe comes out then it's another piece to a very confusing puzzle.

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## Aes_Sidhe

Ohh That Tread make me Want get Harlequin female .. and I believe Outback have one on kingsnake for sale  :Bolt: 

Edit: Uhhh.. not anymore  :Sad:

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## meeistom

On a different note just got a text that the wide x cinnamon clutch hatched out it was 1 wide, 2 cinnamon, and 2 normal.  No combo.  6 more clutches to go now hopefully some combo's will come out of it.

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## meeistom

If you can find a female i'd pick it up just to dink with.   I got out as I can't afford any long term projects right now.  I'm hoping next year when things have settled for me i'll get back in.  




> Ohh That Tread make me Want get Harlequin female .. and I believe Outback have one on kingsnake for sale 
> 
> Edit: Uhhh.. not anymore

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## jsmorphs2

> On a different note just got a text that the wide x cinnamon clutch hatched out it was 1 wide, 2 cinnamon, and 2 normal.  No combo.  6 more clutches to go now hopefully some combo's will come out of it.


Nice! I'd love to see pics of that clutch.  :Wink:  :Smile:

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## Robyn@SYR

Ok, some new pics from today. Males and females here, Ghosts, "hets", and PE Stripes, all from the PE Stripe line, including our DH Ghost PE Stripe line. FOUR DIFFERENT clutches represented here, all 2011 hatch : )

3 Ghost PE Stripes, all separate clutches:


These are "hets" or just PE Stripes. The two on the left hint at the Tri Stipe-ish animals we have hatched. The third is what I would visually sell as normal (or possibly as "het" PE Stripe), the last is something I definitely visually identify as part of the PE Stripe line.

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_Aes_Sidhe_ (05-18-2011),Drewp (05-18-2011),iurast (07-21-2011),_jsmorphs2_ (05-18-2011)

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## Robyn@SYR

Sorry, those Striped Ghosts are two different clutches.

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## meeistom

The female "normal" I sold did not produce any stripes from a 4 egg clutch.  She was bred to a normal male 100% het for albino.  Not sure what this tells us on the genetic make up of stripes.

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## AKballs

> A friend of mine has a 1.1 pair of harlequin wide-stripes that he bought at the 2009 Canadian Reptile Breeders Expo (CRBE) from a breeder who attended the show from the US.  They are awesome looking and I've been doing some research on them for the past couple hours... most threads end in "more breeding needs to be done."
> 
> I found a youtube video of a harlequin wide-stripe x mojave and it was awesome looking... but haven't had much luck finding info on how clutches have turned out or if anyone has tried to prove out a line of them... an old website said something about a harlequin side-stripe when bred together but no pictures or links or anything and it hadn't been updated in a long time.
> 
> About a month ago I picked up this 1600g virgin 2008 female... looks very similar, but his are a little darker on the sides.  Either way this girl was a steal for only $150! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I got this female a couple of weeks ago and suspected that she might be a new morph i put a pic of her up here and a couple people said she looked like a Harlequin Wide stripe heres a couple pics let me know what you think! Im going to breed her to my lesser male hopefully ill get something similar to that mojave and Harlequin cross you were talking about. :Smile:  :Smile: 

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/show...mageuser=22034

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/show...mageuser=22034

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## meeistom

It's possible it's a wide stripe.  It's impossible to know until you breed it.

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## chago11

> It's possible it's a wide stripe.  It's impossible to know until you breed it.


Do your wide stripes have clear bellies?

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## meeistom

Yes they do have clear bellies.  There normal looking offspring also have clear bellies.

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## chago11

> Yes they do have clear bellies.  There normal looking offspring also have clear bellies.


This is what my males belly looks like. I don't think I have a wide stripe

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## meeistom

Most likely not the line i've seen.  Breed it and find out if it's a new line.  You never know did you breed.

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## chago11

> Most likely not the line i've seen.  Breed it and find out if it's a new line.  You never know did you breed.


Yes I did breed him. I posted a link of the results at the begining of this thread. Look at post # 8

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## meeistom

They are most likely striped normals then.

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## meeistom

I thought I would post some pics of a few wides. 











Could this be the super form????

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Drewp (05-30-2011),iurast (07-18-2011)

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## python_addict

> Could this be the super form????


I want it!!  :Surprised:

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## Akren_905

Wow thats awesome looking now you have to breed that one lol

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## meeistom

Well I do plan to breed her at some point.  She is a terrible eater she eats a rat pink once every other month or so.  She was from a wide by a WC dink I imported.  She was the only egg that hatched.

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## TessadasExotics

We hatched a clutch with our stripe female with a Yb. The pics are already in another thread but I will just repost them here to make it easy. I am not going to post pics of all the babies, just a few.

Mom



Babies 2011








Anyways she laid a 9 egg clutch and one was unfertile. All of the babies are phenomenal. Next year we are going to back breed one of the males to mom and then one of the females back to dad when she is ready. Then will probably breed dad and mom together again if she is ready to go again then.

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Drewp (06-06-2011)

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## chago11

> We hatched a clutch with our stripe female with a Yb. The pics are already in another thread but I will just repost them here to make it easy. I am not going to post pics of all the babies, just a few.
> 
> Mom
> 
> 
> 
> Babies 2011
> 
> 
> ...


Do they have clear bellies? BTW Mom and the babies look awesome

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## bumblebee

Yaron, I believe it is bang out of order for u to guess on the genes of my quinstripe!! and more out of order to publicly use a picture of my quinstripe without asking me permission for it!! the father of my quinstripe is an animal that u cannot guess, I have said what I wanted to say in order to keep the genes to myself.

I would like to ask the owner or a mioderator of this forum to remove the picture that is posted here by ntume (or yaron) without my permission.

tnx 





> On the dutch forums there's a lady with a yellowbelly harlequin, but it may possibly be a fire harlequin because of a multi sired clutch.
> 
> Her female ovulated again this year, and some more breeding trials need to be done I guess.
> 
> Here's a picture of the animal she now calls ' quinstripe '
> 
> **picture removed**
> Copyright Bumblebee (Jamie)
> 
> ...

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## JLC

> Yaron, I believe it is bang out of order for u to guess on the genes of my quinstripe!! and more out of order to publicly use a picture of my quinstripe without asking me permission for it!! the father of my quinstripe is an animal that u cannot guess, I have said what I wanted to say in order to keep the genes to myself.
> 
> I would like to ask the owner or a mioderator of this forum to remove the picture that is posted here by ntume (or yaron) without my permission.
> 
> tnx


While I agree that it is in poor taste to use someone else's pictures without their permission (at least he gave you credit for it) ...and it has been removed at your request....I fail to see the assault to your privacy or "secrets" when you've already publicly stated the genetics of the animal on another site.   :Confused:

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## TessadasExotics

> Do they have clear bellies? BTW Mom and the babies look awesome


The babies are actually YB from their dad so they have nice clear bellies with orange bleeding into the belly and the typical YB speckling on the sides.

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_chago11_ (06-06-2011),Drewp (06-10-2011)

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## Drewp

Can't wait for breeding season... long time away still... might not be the most financially exciting project but I'm stoked to be working with wide-stripes.  Probably going to pair her with my buddies wide-stripe male... or a Fire or Lesser... probably not my Lemon Blast, he'll have a normal and a pastel ready to go though.

First season breeding snakes... just hope to get a clutch on the ground.   :Very Happy:

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## Drewp

Any news anyone?  My female is putting a bit more weight on, tagged me a couple days ago for stealing her poop lol

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## python_addict

i dont know but i found a male on kingsnake this one looks like a granite one too and look at his belly!!
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=861941

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## mdfreak2

> i dont know but i found a male on kingsnake this one looks like a granite one too and look at his belly!!
> http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=861941


yea that belly is crazy looking

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## Drewp

gone, or is it just that I don't have a kingsnake account?

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## Robyn@SYR

Nope, the ad has expired. Was a nice looking animal.

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## python_addict

yeah the snake was bought but i wish i could have gotten him

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## iurast

Ouuh, what a shame that i didnt found this thread earlier. Im from germany and maybe the only one here that is in to the harlequin project. I got w clutches over the last 2 years from my harlequin female. Everytime i got visible offspring. 

2009 it was harlequin x pinstripe and also x yb.  3 Pins and one "normal" hatched.
One Pin was clearly a cross, the "normal" could be YB Harlequin. I will test this year:

"normal" Offspring:

http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/2589/9nf66oti_jpg.htm
http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/2589/h7r7b27x_jpg.htm

Harlequin Pin: (next to normal pin sib)
http://s3.directupload.net/file/d/2291/gp8pey99_jpg.htm

2010 it was x Mojave.
Harmony (My name for Harlequin Mojave) next to Mojave sib:

[IMG][/IMG]

Here is a normal Harlequin from the same clutch. (next to a normal from a different clutch)

[IMG][/IMG]

You can see the intense color. Its orange and just amazing. 

Pic of Mom:

http://s3.directupload.net/file/d/2113/kzvb8gx5_jpg.htm


Mon is direct from Africa. So maybe it is a different line. The Harmony (Harlequin Mojave) is the same like amirs harlequin Mojave. But i never saw his Harlequins. 

So here are my thoughts:

- Harlequin, or at least my line, is dominant or co-dominant. I got 4 Eggs in the inkubator right now. Hopeing to see a super?
- My Harlequins are not "wide-stripe". 
- What i can tell is that the Harlequin gene works like a colorpusher. The Crosses are just amazing in color and blushings. A Harmony next to a Mojave is easy to tell even if you have never seen one before. 
- There are many, many snakes out there that look like harlequins or similiar. But not many are really genetic. So that makes it so hard to get into the project. 
- Markers: Dots or Keyholes. Belly - White with black line on both sides (like described before)m blushed out head (rusty look), and a "look" i have no words for in english  :Very Happy: 

Thanks, Sito

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Drewp (07-27-2011)

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## python_addict

do you have pictures of the original parents that you began your projects with? i love the color contrasts between the pins and mojaves very pretty

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## Drewp

Awesome thanks for posting, I am going to be pairing my Lemon Blast male with my female harlequin* (original pic in this thread) - got my fingers crossed on a crazy looking Harlequin Lemon Blast.  :Smile:   Would be pretty cool to hatch out a Worlds first in my first time breeding balls lol.

The more I look into this, the more I think that the wide-stripe is a common occurence in harlequins but not necessarily always present.  I also think that there are more than one line of them being passed off as "Harlequin, Wide-Stripe, VMS Stripe, what have you" and hopefully through more breeding projects we will see just what the heck is going on with these genes.

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## chago11

> Ouuh, what a shame that i didnt found this thread earlier. Im from germany and maybe the only one here that is in to the harlequin project. I got w clutches over the last 2 years from my harlequin female. Everytime i got visible offspring. 
> 
> 2009 it was harlequin x pinstripe and also x yb.  3 Pins and one "normal" hatched.
> One Pin was clearly a cross, the "normal" could be YB Harlequin. I will test this year:
> 
> "normal" Offspring:
> 
> http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/2589/9nf66oti_jpg.htm
> http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/2589/h7r7b27x_jpg.htm
> ...


Do you have belly pics?

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## iurast

Harmony has clear belly. 
My original Harlequin Female has "black lines" on both sides of the belly. But not complete. 
The Offspring Harlequins also got this marker but not as extreme as mom.

Btw i also got a Harlequin YB here. Hes great. Nices Yellow colours i have seen on an 2 Year Old YB so far. 

Will post pics soon  :Smile: 

Best wishes, Sito  :Smile:

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## Drewp

So stoked to start breeding in a few weeks... any news on Harlequins, PE Stripes, Tri-Stripes, etc?  Anyone have more pics to share?

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## SHROP

Just picked this guy up, going to pair him with a normal female this year. 850g. I got him on CL. Lady said she got him from a breeder that bred him multiple times. he is supposed to be 7 years old and proven however she "lost" all the documents over the past few years.  I really like him and cant wait to start a new project. I was told he is a Harlequin wide stripe.

Picked him up, a het albino 800g female that feels like she has produced folicles and a 400g pastel male all in a 40gl breeder with a heat lamp and two REALLY small uth's. Pretty nice price i think. Whats the going rate for one of these wide stripes? they are under fed and sheds not taken care of. Im going to get them nice and healthy tho.

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## Drewp

I got a 1500g female for $150 but she was sold to me as a normal (original pic in this thread.)  Others have said that they've had trouble selling them even cheap, but I think its due to not knowing much about the genetics behind them.  Seems like its still largely a dinker project, but some people are seeming to have some success with the gene.

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## meeistom

We have 14 males and 8 female wide stripes breeding next season working on a few things with them.  We might even have a few morphs for sale next season if this years males produce next season they are all over 400 grams.  We shall see what comes out of the egg.

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## damotmf

hi, came across this and it got me thinking about a female i have.



not up to breeding weight yet but looking hopefull to produce something good

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## jsmorphs2

> hi, came across this and it got me thinking about a female i have.
> 
> 
> 
> not up to breeding weight yet but looking hopefull to produce something good



WOW! Very cool. Where did you get her?

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## LotsaBalls

> hi, came across this and it got me thinking about a female i have.
> 
> 
> 
> not up to breeding weight yet but looking hopefull to produce something good


I want her!

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## damotmf

My wife found her in my local pet shop.  Not a lot known about her only that she is very interesting.

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## hypersomniacjoo

heres my probable harlequin female and a poss harlequin juvie female that i purchased as a normal and held back because of her stripe.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=3&theater

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...64709103_n.jpg

looking for opinions on the poss harlequin. she's too little to breed. so have to wait-  maybe in a year and a half.  i am breeding the probable harlequin to just about every male breeder i have hahaha.

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## Robyn@SYR

Since someone else bumped up this thread, let me just confirm that we lost all stock of our PE Stripe line, multiple generations and morph stripe combos, in our facility fire of September 2011. 

We won't be making any more advancement on this project, which is a big disappointment for me.

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## cfirth

We hatched these this year. Lesser to normal poss harlequin.

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_jsmorphs2_ (10-10-2013),qegalpal (10-10-2013)

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## yzguy

since someone else brought this back, I thought I'd add something that has been suggested that it could be harlequin.  Anyone have any ideas?

father




more pics


mother




more pics


hatchling #1 Normalish looking one:




more pics


hatchling #2




more pics


hatchling #3





more pics

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## cfirth

Yz guy. Your female looks just like our female that produced similar looking babies.

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## yzguy

did you have YB in it at all?  my female is YB, but not sure if that has anything to do with it.

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## darkranger69

I guess you guys have to make an exchange or at least to work together because your projects look very similar. 
Wish you the best ....

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## cfirth

No yb involved with ours. 


Chris Firth
FB Reptiles 
Sent from my iPhone
https://www.facebook.com/groups/firthbroughreptilesnw/

----------

