# Ball Pythons > BP Husbandry > Advanced BP Husbandry >  Need Help - Anyone Everr See Somthing Like This?

## SPJ

I just emailed my vet with this photo to get in ASAP but I was wondering if anyone has ever seen anything like this bump on his head before?
I am not sure if it is a tumor or abcess. He just shed and it is big. He takes f/t so it is not related to a rodent bite. The only bite he could have had was maybe when he was placed with a female for breeding but I didn't see any agression or injury the time they were together.
Any help would be great.
Thanks.

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## LadyOhh

Is it soft and squishy or hard???

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## SPJ

> Is it soft and squishy or hard???


Soft but he does NOT like it being touched.
It blew up like that really fast too.

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## LadyOhh

I have a pastel male that has a small soft one behind his head. It has never really been an issue, but he came to me like that. I can't tell you how it happens... Sorry

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## SPJ

Prior photo. No bump on his head.

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## blackcrystal22

It's not an infection if it's soft. Snake infections are usually very solid unlike mammal infections.

It looks like an absess of some sort, did the vet say anything via e-mail?

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## SPJ

> It's not an infection if it's soft. Snake infections are usually very solid unlike mammal infections.
> 
> It looks like an absess of some sort, did the vet say anything via e-mail?


Haven't heard from them yet.
My thought was abcess too but I would think that would come from an infected injury and I have not seen an injury on him.

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## blackcrystal22

> Haven't heard from them yet.
> My thought was abcess too but I would think that would come from an infected injury and I have not seen an injury on him.


The thing I'm confused about is it being soft.
Tumors usually are relatively hard, so are infections which are usually related to abscesses.
So I'm really curious as to what it would be. I would do some research through google if my darn computer would work.

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## SPJ

> So I'm really curious as to what it would be. I would do some research through google if my darn computer would work.


I tried searching online. Didn't come up with anything.  :Confused:

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## SPJ

This is soft. You can push gently on it and it flattens. Of course it also causes him to hiss loudly and not want you anywhere near him.  :Surprised:

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## blackcrystal22

I'd PM Becky (SatanicIntention) because I think if anyone were to know, she'd be one of them. 

Let us know after the vet e-mails too! Don't touch it too much then though cause it seems that it's painful. :]

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## SPJ

> I'd PM Becky (SatanicIntention) because I think if anyone were to know, she'd be one of them. 
> 
> Let us know after the vet e-mails too! Don't touch it too much then though cause it seems that it's painful. :]


I'll try her. Thanks.

I won't be touching it anymore. He made it bloody well known he did not like it.  :ROFL:

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## Bruce Whitehead

looks to be on the muscle on the back of the head?... could it be a swollen/inflamed muscle?

Bruce

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## blackcrystal22

> looks to be on the muscle on the back of the head?... could it be a swollen/inflamed muscle?
> 
> Bruce


Are there muscles there? Usable ones? O.o

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## sweety314

OMG!!! I can't believe this! Abby's had one almost exactly like it for about a month now. At first, I thought it was like Sharee's experience w/a tapeworm cyst, so when I noticed it had gotten larger I took him to the vet. He's since been to the vet a total of 3 different times. No cyst or abcess of any kind at all, but .......

The vet just lanced it after taking radiographs (x-rays) b/c the vet said it had a boney protrusion, and he wanted pics before doing any cutting.

The last time, he just lanced it, getting about 1cc of clear fluid.

It's since gotten bigger again, and I drained it at home. Nothing definitive as to root cause, but my vet is still doing some digging and research.

If YOU find out anything definite, I would REAAAAAAALLY be interested. But Abby's is over his eye and just behind the "browbone", a little more forward than your snake's...enough so that above Abby's eye was a little deformed when it got really big.


I'll tag you too, if I hear anything from Dr. F.


RuLyn

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## SatanicIntention

Yes, there are muscles there, large ones. I told him it looked like an abscess and to have it lanced. It's too close to an eye for me to feel comfortable not doing anything about it. 

All the vet has to do is anesthetize the snake, lance the abscess, clean it out, flush it, possibly put a drain in to keep it open so it doesn't reform, and then put the snake on injectable antibiotics for 2 weeks or so. 

If it's not an abscess, then they need to get a sample of it and send it off to the lab. Cancer can be possible too..  :Sad:

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## SPJ

Not encouraging. Someone gave me this link regarding what happened with one of their BP's.

http://client.visuallink.com/~krawls/id37.htm

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## emptyblackstare

that was a sad read.  I hope you have better luck.

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## sweety314

Any updates yet? I drained Abby's yesterday and got about .2cc clear fluid. Just the boney protrusions now, until/unless it fills up again.

Good luck with yours!

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## SPJ

> Any updates yet? I drained Abby's yesterday and got about .2cc clear fluid. Just the boney protrusions now, until/unless it fills up again.
> 
> Good luck with yours!


Not good. He is going downhill FAST!
He was at the vet last week. They did a needle biopsy and the fluid was more like a mucus so they were not sure if it was really an abcess.
They did a cytology and aerobic culture.
Cytology results of the 5 slides were:

Microscopic Description: Cellularity was moderately high with a small amount of blood. Cells were a mixture of heterophils, lymphocytes and azurophils. Mixed bacteria were observed. No cellular atypia suggestive of neoplasia was evident.

Cytological Interpretation: Septic inflamation.

Comments: Culture results will be helpful to determine appropriate antibiotic therapy.

The culture results showed 3+ gram negative rods and 3+ aeromomas species.

Treatment was prescribed as 0.08 ml of Fortaz injected IM every 3 days for a total of 10 injections.

Now for the bad part. Here he is a week after this.


I just got back from the vet again. They have no idea what is going on now since he has blown up so much in such a short amount of time. He has also lost 50 grams in the past week and his skin is flaking.

I have been told by the vet to contact Dr. Mayer at Tufts University. No one else in the state would be able to help at this point. A highly skilled specialist is now needed and the Fortaz may be ineffective.

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## Rapture

Steve, very sorry to read this update. Good luck with your future decisions on treating this snake.

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## dr del

:Sad:   :Sad:   :Sad: 


The poor wee bugger.  :Tears: 

Fingers crossed they work out the best way to treat it. :Please:  



dr del

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## SPJ

I just sent Dr. Scott Stahl in VA an email with the results of the lab work and some photos along with the details of what has been going on since 8/30 asking for his help. He is supposed to be one of the best vets in the country. I am hoping to hear back soon.

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## blackcrystal22

I'm terribly sorry about this, I sure hope that he will know something!

 :Please:

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## SPJ

I can't believe how bad he looks and how fast this progressed.
Here he is about a month and a half ago.

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## rishnack

i had one like that on a redtail years ago, it was a cyst, i was told to soak her in some kinda solution for aquarium fish but i cant remeber what, my buddy who was a herp told me to do it and it worked after a week it was gone i,ll try and get ahold of him (it,s been along time) to see if he remebers wth it was

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## SPJ

Maracyn?  I've used that in the past as a soak with a BP. Not just for fish. LOL.

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## SPJ

From about 10 minutes ago. Poor guy.

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## Shadera

Oh my goodness, those pics are quite shocking.  I'll keep your sweet boy in my thoughts, I hope they can find some help for him somewhere somehow.

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## reaxion07

Those pics are sad  :Sad:   Good luck

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## SPJ

Just got a reply from Dr. Stahls office.




> He really needs surgery... and it has gotten very large and involved, so we would be concerned with the infection getting into the bone/blood stream at this point. (reptile pus is very caseous and needs to be removed surgically, not drained, every time) If he is still strong, has good muscular tone, the best bet would be to fed ex him down here for treatment.  Or, if youd prefer, I could set up a phone consult with Dr Stahl... maybe even have him talk to your vet to instruct them on what to do.  He needs to be started on antibiotics, ceftazadime and Baytril every 3 days and meloxicam for pain/inflammation.  you can fax the records to us at 703-281-3730 for now, that way they are here no matter what you decide as far as Dr Stahls involvement.  Let me know, Jen

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## SPJ

Well, I am at a crossroad now.
I can't afford the quote from Dr. Stahl (after just putting out $500 this past week) and I don't think my vet is competent enough to do the surgery and then I still probably couldn't afford it even if they pulled it off successfully. 
This sucks.




> I would imagine surgery/hosp(at least a month) would run about 800-1500.00
> If your vet isnt comfortable with the surgery, his only chance will be to ship.  Let us know, Jen

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## snakecharmer3638

Sorry things are going bad for you. Wish I had some words of wisdom to make things better.  :Sad:

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## frankykeno

Awww Steve, what a mess.  The snake looks really bad.  Is there the possibility of a payment plan for his medical needs or even having him seen by the doctor's at a teaching vet school?  I know in Guelph, Ontario at their vet school they will take on unusual cases for vastly reduced fees in order to help teach the students about things that are rarely seen.  Any option like that available to you?

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## SPJ

> Awww Steve, what a mess.  The snake looks really bad.  Is there the possibility of a payment plan for his medical needs or even having him seen by the doctor's at a teaching vet school?  I know in Guelph, Ontario at their vet school they will take on unusual cases for vastly reduced fees in order to help teach the students about things that are rarely seen.  Any option like that available to you?


I had asked about a payment plan and got this response from them.



> We usually have you pay in full, but since he is going to be here for a while, you could pay ½ when you send him, then whatever is left when we send him back. We do have to have it paid before he comes back, though. Sorry about that, we have had too many people that we gave payment plans to that never paid so we had to stop offering payments. Jen


I am waiting on a reply to my last note to find out what would be needed up front to get him down there ASAP since they gave me a range on cost. Once I know if I need $600, $800, etc up front, I can hopefully try to arrange something and get him down there for the surgery.

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## Muze

I know we're all probably really strapped for cash, but if you send me your Paypal info, I'd be happy to help out with a bit of cash.  I'm sure others would be too.  It may not amount to a lot, but it could help you out.  It's been done for other members.

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## SPJ

> I know we're all probably really strapped for cash, but if you send me your Paypal info, I'd be happy to help out with a bit of cash.  I'm sure others would be too.  It may not amount to a lot, but it could help you out.  It's been done for other members.


Thank you for the generous offer but I will have to decline.

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## Mindibun

I'm sorry I can't be of any help, but I am really sad to hear about this. It's shocking how quickly it flared up, really. Was the other vet able to tell you how it happened? Is this type of thing caused by genetics or bacteria or what?

Good luck with him, though. I feel so sorry to see him swelled up like that; he must be so miserable.  :Sad:

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## Muze

I understand.  I wish the best for your little guy.  At least he's with someone who cares.

Good luck!

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## SPJ

> I'm sorry I can't be of any help, but I am really sad to hear about this. It's shocking how quickly it flared up, really. Was the other vet able to tell you how it happened? Is this type of thing caused by genetics or bacteria or what?
> 
> Good luck with him, though. I feel so sorry to see him swelled up like that; he must be so miserable.


At first they thought it might have been a genetic defect and spinal fluid was leaking into the back of the skull. The consistency of the liquid in the biopsy supported that over an abcess expecially since there appeared to by no wound.
The results of the labwork ruled that out and now the vet does not know what caused it or really what it is. 
The rapid progression also shocked the vet.

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## Rapture

Sorry to hear about all this Steve... I know vet surgeries can get real expensive. I'd ask that clinic if they accept Care Credit... it's a credit line that a company offers for vet expenses specifically. Maybe you could apply for that and get payment plans that way.

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## SPJ

> Sorry to hear about all this Steve... I know vet surgeries can get real expensive. I'd ask that clinic if they accept Care Credit... it's a credit line that a company offers for vet expenses specifically. Maybe you could apply for that and get payment plans that way.


I would apply but unfortunately I already have a large balance on a care credit account. I used it in April to pay for Lasik surgery.

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## SatanicIntention

Looking at his "healthy" picture, he still doesn't look normal. The back part of his head is really large/wide. Doesn't look like any of mine at all. They have fat heads sure, but they are still alot more slender than your picture shows.

So they diagnosed it as a spinal fluid leakage. Have they checked his heart? Maybe it's ascites from a heart problem.

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## kc261

I thought the post said they decided it wasn't spinal leakage?

I'm confused how the vet is saying he needs surgery but they also don't know what is wrong with him.  Don't you have to know what you are trying to fix to be able to do surgery?  Or is what they are suggesting an exploratory surgery to figure out what is wrong?

I really hope you are able to find out what is wrong and fix the poor guy up.  I can't imagine he is anything other than totally miserable with all that swelling.  And you said he acted as if it was painful when it wasn't nearly so swollen.  OUCH!

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## SPJ

They thought it was spinal fluid since there appeared to be no abrasion/cut/wound/etc that could have gotten infected and the fluid in the biopsy was mucusy (sp?) and had some blood.
The tests showed it wasn't that though.

The findings are posted in this thread a few pages back. 

They are not sure what kind of "infection" it is but they do know from the sensitivity results that many common antibiotics would not be effective.

The surgery is to open his head and neck up and completely remove everything in there.

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## SPJ

> Looking at his "healthy" picture, he still doesn't look normal. The back part of his head is really large/wide. Doesn't look like any of mine at all. They have fat heads sure, but they are still alot more slender than your picture shows.


Bad photo.  :Very Happy: 
Here is another one from the same day without his head resting on my hand.

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## mischevious21

Wow, I am so sorry that this is happening!!! Poor guy  :Sad:  I really hope that everything works out.. Keep us updated!!

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## sweety314

Awww, Steven.... :Sad:   I'm soooo sorry to hear that he's gotten so much worse and the expenses needed.

Hopefully things will improve VERY SOON for you!!!! Thanks for keeping us UTD on what's going on. I know it's rough for both of you.

Keeping you in our prayers.

RuLyn

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## SamuraiZr0

I'm sorry to read this .. I hate to see any animal in pain. I hope all goes  well

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## Somed00d

SPJ, will the vet do the surgery if you sign it over to them?  I had a pregnant cat with life threatening complications and I couldn't afford the surgery so I signed her over to the vet.  The vet did the surgery and I was told if it was successful it would be going to a foster home.  

I know it sucks but it may be in the best interest of the snake.

Richard

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## TimmyG

Jeeze man I hope nothing like that ever happens to my bp, anyone else on this forum, or to you ever again. My condolences :'(

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## SPJ

> Keep us updated!!


Waiting to see what the outcome of the cutting and draining is.

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## grunt_11b

Steve is your snake looking any better?? 

Alan

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## SPJ

> Steve is your snake looking any better?? 
> 
> Alan


Not really. Got drained a second time and is now on metacam in addition to the fortaz.

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## SPJ

Didn't want to disturb him too much but....................

He is going to have an ugly head from the scarring  :ROFL:  but he is eating now. Only 3 more shots remaining for treatment.
He has made a BIG turnaround.  :Good Job:

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## TimmyG

I wouldnt worry about scars. Chicks dig scars, I should know I have one on the side of my eye!

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## dr del

Hi,

That is great news.  :Very Happy: 

You have a big slice of karma coming for sticking with this guy.  :Bowdown: 


dr del

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## Pandora

> I just emailed my vet with this photo to get in ASAP but I was wondering if anyone has ever seen anything like this bump on his head before?
> I am not sure if it is a tumor or abcess. He just shed and it is big. He takes f/t so it is not related to a rodent bite. The only bite he could have had was maybe when he was placed with a female for breeding but I didn't see any agression or injury the time they were together.
> Any help would be great.
> Thanks.


I read somewhere that snakes tend to get swollen necks and heads during the shedding process? Don't know if it has anything to do with that. Glad to see things are looking up.

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## gsx2ts4u

I read this whole thing, I am so glad he is doing better! I hope its all good news from now on!

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## dprince

See, it just goes to show that your luck is changing Steve.  :Wink:  VERY good news on your boy!!  :Good Job:

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## Mindibun

I feel like Christmas came early or something. -lol- I'm so glad to hear that he's doing better; I hope his progress continues. I'm really glad you were able to make it work.  :Very Happy:  good on ya.  :Good Job:

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## danthony428

god i just spent forever reading this and im so glad he's doing better, just keep everyone updated, because id like to know the outcome of everything

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## blackcrystal22

Thank goodness.
I was deeply rooting for you. I'm so glad he's on the road to recovery.  :Good Job:

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## Peter Williams

I don't know how I missed this but I'm glad I missed it long enough to see that the snake is recovering now, sorry you had to go through this, I hope he makes a full recovery.

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## SnakieMom

Keeping fingers crossed that he continues to heal with no further complications.  :Smile:

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## SamuraiZr0

YAY . Good on ya mate!! I hope yer little serpent keeps healin' fine to full..

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## Muze

I am so glad he's doing better!  He's in great hands!

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## hoax

Great news man I am really happy that this turned out this way. I was super worried about you both. Get us updates when you can.

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## SPJ

Final Update

His head has swelled back up again one week after his last injection.
The treatment didn't work.
He will be euthanized by the vet tomorrow.

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## dr del

Aww nuts,  :Sad: 


Really sorry to hear that - but you gave him every chance possible so, sad as this is, I think you are making the right decision.


del

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## bigballs

im so sorry.  i was really hoping he would pull through.  you clearly did everything you could. did you and the vet ever find out what was wrong?

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## measley

I just read through this thread and I'm so sorry you're going through this.  You did the best you could and it is obvious you truly cared for this little guy.  It is never easy putting down a beloved animal.  My thoughts are with you.

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## hoax

> Final Update
> 
> His head has swelled back up again one week after his last injection.
> The treatment didn't work.
> He will be euthanized by the vet tomorrow.


I am so sorry to hear that. I will keep you in my thoughts. You did everything that you could. Most people would not have tried half as hard as you did. We have seen people do nothing over easy situations. You clearly care your pet. again I am sorry...

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## rishnack

sorry to hear this after all the effort and money you put into him you did alot more than most would have, i feel for you

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## Royal Morphz

Oh Steve im so sorry i know you put everything possible towards getting this guy better my condolences brother

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