# Site General > General Herp >  Live food...why? Honestly & with facts!

## Missy King

So! Yes, i feed my lizard live worms, live crickets. I feed my big fish live other fish. I have tarantulas, and have had frogs, etc. Bugs seem to not be a problem to feed to other bugs. Fish seem to be okay to feed to turtles, frogs, other fish.

So...Rodents to snakes.

I want an honest, real reason YOU feed live food to your snakes.
I know the monicaled cobra only eats other snakes, though in captivity most people do transition to rats. Even frozen/thawed.

I know some snakes eat fish, and some eat lizards. I haven't heard of anyone trying to feed dead lizards, though.

But still....unless there is some way to trim the teeth, as well as the nails...what are the benifits of feeding live rodents to snakes, other than you get to watch them strike and kill a rodent? 
If you have a live food eating snake that refuses dead food....do you occasionally still try to transition to F/T?
What do you do for your snake if it's bitten, or damaged from it's live food?

Just wondering. Honestly! Not trying to start something. It's not really like, OH poor rodent! It's more like, i worry about the snake's livlihood. I personally have three rescues that are covered in scars, huge missing scale spots, and one with a damaged nostril. 
I'm honestly trying to comprehend the reason live food is used. These snakes actually didn't have a problem at all eating f/t right when i got them, so i'm just totally wondering how someone could let them get so damaged and still keep feeding them live.

Expand my mind!  lol

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## decensored

sometimes its just really hard to get them over to frozen thawed.  I prefer to feed dead animals but sometimes its not really an option.  

I am planning on starting my hatchlings on F/T right away in the spring.  I know for breeders who have their own rodent colonies its just easier to feed live.  It takes time and money to cull animals and it's just easier for them.

Personally I plan on culling and freezing or giving PK all of my snakes when I get my babies coming in..

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## cmack91

i fed live for over 5 years, honestly at first (when i was 13 ish), it was for fun lol. but after a year or two, and a bite or two, i realized how much safer f/t or p/k is, but he never took them, ever. granted i only tried maybe once every 6-8 weeks. he's taking them now though like a champ, he went through a 6month feeding strike towards the end of last year, then ate a few live rats, and the rest since then have been p/k and one f/t :Very Happy:  my boa has only eaten f/t with me, except for her first mouse, which was live, but she transitioned perfectly with no questions so to speak lol.

whenever mitch would get bit, i would use either neosporin, or tea tree oil, idk if th eoil did anything, but it was supposed too, luckily he has never had any kind of serious bite

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## ReptilesK2

I feed mostly frozen thawed, but have a couple snakes that will only eat live. 
I always make sure to watch carefully with tongs in my hands, I have seen some rats trying to fight back and bite! 

IMO if your snake will take F/T give it to them, but sometimes when they wont eat F/T I have no choice but to feed them live.

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## carlisleishere

I feed live to some of my snakes, but it has to be done with caution. I feed live because I bought them eating live, and I am trying to convert them to f/t. I think the main concern with live feeding is an injury, which has happened to me on two occasions. Both times the rat had bit the snake after it had coiled. I had to physically remove the rats jaws away from the snake until the rat was dead. It was minor injuries that you have to look for to notice. I put polysporin on the wound and it heals great.


I think the main reason people feed live is convenience (it's just an opinion, it may not be the truth). I reason this because I find most people who feed live breed the feeders themselves, so there is less processing of the rat.

I strongly believe that it is reasonably safe to feed live rodents to snakes as long as you watch the snake until the rodent is dead. Until the prey is dead, it still poses a possible threat. The real problem comes from people who leave the prey unsupervised.

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## DellaF

I have two Bps that refuse to eat f/t. I buy them live cause I like my snakes to eat. I would prefer them to eat f/t it is so much cheaper. I have tried to switch them back several times. They don't want no parts of f/t. My husband and I stay close by when we feed the snakes just in case. So far the rats haven't did any harm to them.

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## heathers*bps

All of my balls eat live, and so does my gtp. With over 40 snakes, its easier for me to feed live. I do have some snakes that like to stalk the rat before striking, and its honestly becoming a PITA to have to stand there and wait for them to do their thing, as I keep a close eye on them as to ensure no bites. I have been seriously debating on trying to switch everyone over to f/t after breeding season. 

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

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## evan385

I feed live if I have it, because it's more natural and that is what they prefer. That's all the excitement they get besides being handled which they tolerate and feeding day is their favorite day of the week. In most cases where a snake was hurt by a rat it's because the owner didn't watch and probably just left the rat in with the snake and walked away. If you know what you are doing and supervise the whole process, you can even hold the feet back so they don't get scratched, then there is little to no risk.

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## RichsBallPythons

I do what the snake tells me to do.

Most snakes when started will not take frozen for first meals. Never tried it as you want to stimulate their response to food, so you feed live. I let customer decide to switch or not.

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_Don_ (12-09-2011)

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## RichL

I currently feed live due to the fact its easy. I also like offering as 'realistic' environment as possible for my animals. I give them the thrill of the hunt. That is unless of course the mouse/rat walks up and says hi. =) 

I know my normal will take F/T or P/K at any time. Haven't tried on the new spider yet, and the '11's refused F/T the first time I offered.

 I am setting up a kill chamber this week due to the 1.0 Spider taking a small bite the past two weeks. Nothing serious, but he is just not very accurate with his strikes. Both times, he had constricted so tight, that I was unable to get to the rat. Both are superficial bites with little to no blood being drawn.

So, I'm swapping to P/K this week because of him for everyone. Hopefully the '11's take them. They have been pretty good eaters so far on live even eating during 'blue'. Once I get everyone on P/K well. I will probably try and make the swap to F/T because of the price.

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## Evenstar

I much prefer f/t.  However, my adult female BP, Ella, who has always been a powerhouse feeder on f/t since we got her 2 years ago, decided last year to be finicky about her f/t.  She went 4 months of refusing f/t and only ate maybe 2 meals total in all that time.  SO I finally broke down and offered her a live mouse because I was frankly starting to get worried (even though she really never did drop weight).

Ironically, it took her almost 30min to finally eat that first live mouse.  But she ate her f/t perfectly the following week!  So for awhile, I alternated giving her live and f/t that spring and she was sort of on again off again with her food but usually ate pretty well.  Then in August, she starting refusing more than she was eating again.  She ate a f/t mouse only 2 times in 2 months.  The first of October I broke down again and got a couple live mice.  BAM!  She was a piggy again.  So I've kept her on live for the last 2 months and she's eaten every meal so far.

I would LIKE to get her back on f/t.  But I've been a chicken about trying it, lol.  I would also like to get her on rats, but I'm even more nervous about trying that.  I know I shouldn't be, but I'm a very motherly and nuturing person so I can't help but worry about her when she doesn't eat.  I would rather feed her 2-3 live mice each week and have her eat than have her keep refusing f/t.

I feel that feeding her live is safe because I am extremely dilligent about watching out for her when she eats.  I will NOT leave a live rodent in with her even for a just a few minutes.  She's either going to eat it right away, or out it comes.  I tail feed so each rodent is offered to her by me and I am right there to watch her strike and constrict in case there should be a problem.  But for me, there is no enjoyment in watching her kill her prey.  I have no moral or ethical problem with feeding live, but the reason I do it is simply because that's what works for her right now.  All my other snakes happily eat f/t and I'm very thankful for that....   :Very Happy: 

I've never had her even come close to being bitten, but if Ella were to be injured by a rodent, I would evaluate how serious the bite was and immediately take her to the vet if it was that serious.  A minor bite I would keep clean and use an anitbiotic ointment and keep a very careful eye on it.  Rodent bites are nasty and not to be trifled with so I wouldn't hesitate to take her to the vet if I thought it was necessary.  But I think most bites happen when the rodent is left unsupervised in the snake's enclosure which will not happen with Ella.  

Sorry for the long post.  That turned out to be more of a novel than I'd intended.....   :Embarassed:

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## Reakt20

I've just recently switched my snakes over to f/t. everyone has taken one at least once but they dont take them all the time, in which case, i feed them live and they strike. you can always (this might seem mean to some people) flick the mouse or rat in the head really hard with your index finger and knock them out if they start gnawing on your snakes' coils. i've had to do it a couple of times and it saved a couple snakes from a potential open wound. i would prefer to feed all f/t but sometimes its easier and faster to feed live. its pretty much a guaranteed strike with any of my snakes.

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## zmd0827

I didn't go through everyone's comments, and I guess i should have... Computer's running on borrowed time... Where's my charger?

Anyways, through the rescue I run, we get a ton of animals that just don't transition, even though we do our best to transition them ourselves.

Take for instance this Savvy we got in.  He's great!  Huffy puffy, but never really bite or tail-whipped.  He lived in a car for three weeks, along with 20 other reptiles, because his owner was evicted for reptiles and she didn't want to surrender them until they all started to die.

He was only being fed live, I can understand that it's pretty hard to keep a rat frozen in a car...

But that's what he's been his entire life, and he has been difficult to switch over.  We've had him for a month and tried and tried and tried, through different methods.  Chicken stock, you name it, we tried it!  We've only succeeded in getting him to take hard-boiled eggs, but that can't be his entire diet.

And in other instances, like the sand viper... Just won't take frozen thawed.  In fact, she has this tendency as a hatchling, to bite into the pinkie (live), let it die, then eat it a solid 10 hours later.

We just get some finicky eaters.  But hey, we do our best to switch over in our rescue, and some just don't take to it.  And with numbers exceeding 50, usually near 70 animals, we just can't take our sweet time to get them all switched over.

But on a positive note, my personal female retic is eating frozen, as is my normal female het. granite ball.

Food for thought,

ZMD.

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## RichsBallPythons

Sav monitors shouldnt be fed rodents period,

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## wolfy-hound

I feed live for my convience.

I always tell people that FT is safer and preferred. But with 30+ snakes, thawing 30 rats out and hoping everyone eats FT is a pain. Doing the zombie rat dance for a snake is no big deal, but doing it for 30+ snakes is a pain.

If you have a ton of leftovers, what next? Throw them all out and waste them? I have monitors, but I can't feed a ton of rodents to them.  Feed the snakes in staggered feeding? Again, it's a pain, since then I've got to keep a staggered feeding schedule that will change EVERY feeding day if someone refuses and I give that rodent to someone else.

I've never ever 'enjoyed' watching a animal die. Not when I butchered my own animals for food, not when I've hunted and not when I feed my snakes. It doesn't gross me out or make me feel 'immoral' in any way. It's just part of life. I watch the snakes to make sure the rats don't harm them. If a rat isn't struck just right, I can interfere if it attempts to bite.  Is that foolproof? Of course not. There's a possibility the snake could get bitten.

But then, pythons are pretty tought, and even if a rat does get struck poorly and take a few extra seconds to die, they can't automatically bite your python's head off.  It's rare to get a injury from a feeding, as opposed to a unsupervised rodent in a snake's bin for days. 

FT is always the safe bet. But between snakes that refuse to eat FT, the convienance of live esp for those of us breeding our own, and the mydrid number of other reasons, there's always probably going to be some live feeders.

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_rjk890_ (12-09-2011)

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## jbean7916

I feed live because I have picky eaters and it's easier for me to get live and keep them if they don't eat. I can't afford to toss out rats every time my normal male decides he's not hungry

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## Missy King

well, i do get the "what if they don't eat" thing. We have 11 snakes, and when one won't eat, sometimes someone else will...and if not (or it's the wrong size) then we refreeze. If it's the right size that someone else may eat it...sometimes with the pythons or the dumeril's boas i'll leave it out over night, and most of the time they eat it...if not, it's nice and stinky for my "garbage disposal" snakes to eat it *lol*

I have only seen a snake's live feeding once...when i was at the pound, about to adopt the two balls they had. They had just put mice in to feed them (yup, a mouse for a 4 foot long ball python..they also had no water at all)...anyway...the first ball struck, and suffocated the mouse, and swallowed it down.  The second was blind from eye cap build up, kept striking and missing, and when it did hit the mouse it got the butt...so when it wrapped around the mouse, the mouse bit and tore a scale off while i was watching. That snake was also too weak to kill the mouse (I named her Ribs, and at the time she weighed only a little more than a pound)...anyway, both those snakes are doing fine now...and i'm helping them recover. But that was the only life feed i've seen. It' looked really ineffective and it looks like just the slightest off bite and scales and blood fly.

But, they are rescues and both were dehydrated and undernourished. 

Aha and in response to "it's more natural for them" and "they like the excitement" LOL
Okay so as an example, I have 4 snakes in-particular who have never had live food. Our girl ball python gets PLENTY excited for her dead rat ...LOL she is hilarious. She's so silly she wouldn't know what to do with something alive. A lot of the ones i have are preeeetty domesticated it seems. At least a couple of them actually strike. Our hognose, and our rescued corn snake just....start eating. It's actually pretty funny too.

I think i'm just pretty protective of my snakes. I'd be so worried the whole time they were striking and eating live food.  I don't mind anything else eating live, since they can't get hurt. Oh and don't get me wrong...i'm an oddball girl. I've gone hunting with my dad, and even have a nice deer mount or two or three on his wall that he's proud of (the son he never had lol) but i would be so upset if my little snakey babies got bit or hurt. 

There's a reptile show in January in Pamona, and i know i shouldn't go....but i do need supplies! And yeah maybe i'll be looking at snakes....maybe i'll find one....but i have to admit, that if they were eating live all the time it might be a turn off for me. It might depend on the snake, too though. 

I suppose i might learn to feel different when i have like 30 snakes. Right now 11 is manageable for f/t lol

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## Slashmaster

I feed all my snakes live. Back when I had a couple snakes it might have been useful to feed F/T, but now it'd just be a major waste of money. I have some snakes that will turn their noses up at food for no apparent reason, and every time a snake does that, it means the food went to waste with F/T because I think re-heating F/T is kind of disgusting and unsafe. With live, I can put the rat back in a cage/habitat with food and water and it won't be "spoiled" - it'll be healthy and ready for next week.

I fed my snakes P/K for a while and feeding response went down. Live gives me the best feeding response among the babies and adults alike. Everyone gets watched until they kill their prey. When it comes to my spider male, who cannot do a head shot for the life of him, I will dangle it for him so he can get a head shot easier.

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## KingPythons

IMO and simple answer, they eat live in the wild so why not feed them live in captivity.

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_Void_ (12-12-2011)

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## purplemuffin

Of course, in the wild they aren't in a newspaper lined tub. In the wild the rat has a chance to escape, and so does the snake if it doesn't want to eat. I still don't think feeding live is any more 'natural' unless the snake was given a total hunting experience.... Dangling/tossing in a rat in a box isn't the same, though I can see it's pros and cons.

Our male IS occasionally fed live, when he's being picky. Thankfully he's never been hurt. Came close a few times though!

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## zmd0827

> Sav monitors shouldnt be fed rodents period,


He is fed a well balanced diet.  Rodents aren't his only source of food.  Lizards are in there too, beef, eggs.  That's about it so far.  We're experimenting with him, but he just got over scale rot, so you can see where we're coming from.

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## KingPythons

> Of course, in the wild they aren't in a newspaper lined tub. In the wild the rat has a chance to escape, and so does the snake if it doesn't want to eat. I still don't think feeding live is any more 'natural' unless the snake was given a total hunting experience.... Dangling/tossing in a rat in a box isn't the same, though I can see it's pros and cons.
> 
> Our male IS occasionally fed live, when he's being picky. Thankfully he's never been hurt. Came close a few times though!


I don't understand what you mean by hunting experience :Confused:

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## purplemuffin

Well, I guess what I mean is it's a different experience than it would be in the wild. Yes the ball is an opportunist who will wait for prey to come to it.. But it's hard to compare a confined experience in a tub with the real outdoors. I don't really mean like true hunting, that was a poor choice of words. I don't have problems with feeding live, I just wouldn't call it natural--for either the predator or the prey really. I think of live feeding being fed more so out of convenience as well as to know what the rat was fed.

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## KingPythons

> Well, I guess what I mean is it's a different experience than it would be in the wild. Yes the ball is an opportunist who will wait for prey to come to it.. But it's hard to compare a confined experience in a tub with the real outdoors. I don't really mean like true hunting, that was a poor choice of words. I don't have problems with feeding live, I just wouldn't call it natural--for either the predator or the prey really. I think of live feeding being fed more so out of convenience as well as to know what the rat was fed.


Oh, I find it to be very natural. I know what my rats eat. I mean if you think killing a rat yourself or thawing a rat is natural that's fine lol. To each there own.

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## hut8822

Personaly it`s alot easier for me to feed live because for me to buy f/t i have to drive an hour.Live are only about 10 min away.I just started and haven`t had any problems so far.
 The way i see it they eat live in the wild and have no problems so why not feed live? It`s all personal preference. 

 If you watch and make sure nothing happens nothing will happen!!

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## Missy King

agreed purplemuffin (btw love the frog).

I'm glad to hear that it seems everyone watches their snake though, to make sure things are okay. The facts are these snakes are NOT wild, and not IN the wild....they can't get away if they feel like not eating...and the rats or rabbits (the one BP i have has a huge healed rip down his whole belly from a rabbit kick) can chew them, hurt them, attack, etc. (I have been attacked by a rat, and a rabbit *lol* they are vicious if they want to be. Rat was actually trying to attack a grasshopper...and the rabbit was just a jerk who hate people *lol*)

I don't know, now we're getting into opinion, rather than fact.....see, it's like saying well a dog is "supposed" to be wild, so it should be able to catch prey on it's own, etc. A LOT of ball pythons are bred in the pet trade, and a lot of them are very domesticated. For a lot of them, they are just instinctively inferior to their wild brotheren.  I'm sure there are quite a few that, obviously, do well, too.

I just can't really justify the risk of bits, scratches, eye injuries, etc. My snakes get pretty excited chasing and eating dead water warmed rats when wiggled and drug across a towel. They have learned when it's time to eat, and where, and they get very excited. It's realllllly cute. I like the bonding, and the feeding, and all of it. I prefer f/t. 

Now, though, if i had a snake that no matter what refused food...i would always try to transition it to f/t....but i would do what i had to, to get it to eat. More than likely though? I would have no problem bumping the rat in the head/dazing the rat so it was only barely alive. 

Does anyone do that? Or do you just put the rat/mouse in the cage with the snake? Do you put the snake in a feeding box?

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## purplemuffin

I don't think pk or ft is natural either! Nothing is natural about a snake in a cage, cleaning, handling, substrate, and feeding included. Does that make it wrong? No! It's just not nature. We don't find wild rack systems in the wild, LOL! If we did, I'd be out herping more often and grabbing some racks!  :Very Happy:  I wasn't arguing against live, just the idea that it's exactly like the wild!  :Razz:  Captive care is a unique thing, unnatural, but in a way meant to still be healthy. And we do a darn good job, considering how much longer our critters our living in our care  :Smile:  Sorry if my post was confusing! No negative intent, I promise! <3 

I feed in the cage with our male, we have stunned the rodent before, but of course that time was the one time maru did NOT strike perfectly(99% of the time he gets them right on the neck and perfectly gets the legs) and ended up getting very close to a bite when the rat figured out what was going on. Was very stressful! But that was our fail-experience. We seemed to struggle finding that delicate balance of outright murdering the rat or just ticking it off! He usually will grab the rat the second it hits the floor if it's live, but if for any reason we are concerned (he is in blue/is acting finicky/specially active or twitchy rat) we will just try to keep the two separate--like put Maru on top of his hide, give him a bit of an advantage so the rat can't reach. He will take it down like a charm.

And thanks! I'm trying to do pixels of all my pets!  :Very Happy:  maru's next!

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## spitzu

We breed our own so it's just quicker and easier to feed live or P/K.  Most of ours take them P/K now, which makes for a much quicker feeding day since they don't have to be monitored.

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## Slashmaster

> A LOT of ball pythons are bred in the pet trade, and a lot of them are very domesticated.


I figure this is because of the breeding intervention... ball pythons in the wild have a lot of eggs in a clutch because most of them won't survive. The ones that do are the most "genetically superior" but because we have a vested interest in the animals, we ensure that (to the best of our ability) all of the animals survive. Even those who wouldn't have survived in the wild due to appetite, etc. And those animals breed and pass on their genetics.

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## WarriorPrincess90

I have a rescue female and a male I've raised from a baby, and both will only take live. And even then my male is finicky about that. Picky little mouser. :/ Haven't tried feeding my new boa yet, but I'm hoping she will take PK/FT. If not, it's really no hassle to get an extra live feeder every week. -shrug- 

I watch them the whole time the food is in there with them. If it's lively and they miss the head, or it fights back, I thump it roughly on the head to knock it out, hold it's back legs, etc. Whatever is necessary to keep them from hurting my babies. I'd take a bite before I'd let them bite my snakes.  :Razz:

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## MasonC2K

My snakes will not have anything to do with F/T. I've tried many times and just gave up. If they would it eat, I would prefer it because of it being cheaper in bulk. I have 7 BP of different ages and none of them will have anything to do with F/T at all. 

That's why I personally feed live.

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## TheSnakeEye

Leave work.

Drive a block away.

Pick up rodents.

Go home.

Drop in tubs.

Full bellies.

That's how easy it is for me to feed live. I share my house with my family, so keeping frozen rats in the freezer is a no-no. And placing them somewhere to thaw is also a no-no.

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## Homegrownscales

For a Long time up until I got over 10 snakes I did pk/ft. I Have total over 60 balls now and live seems to be the preference for most of my snakes and it's a convienence thing for me. I breed my rodents and everyone eats when the prey is live. I watch the rats and I've never had a serious issue. If someone does get bitten it's never a serious bite bc I prefer to feed smaller more frequent meals. A weanling can't do as much damage as a jumbo. Period. When and if it should happen the bite is cleaned with betadyne and watched. Accidents can happen but it's so infrequent that as I look up the last time it did... it was around 2 1/2 years ago.  It gives me and the snakes an easy routine.  With alot of snakes to feed in a day and many other critters to care for, yes I go for conveience. Do I think it's necessarily easier, or safer, etc to do one or the other?? NO. each way of feeding has its own risks. At least with live I don't have to worry about if the middle is totally thawed and have to poke around in 60-70 dead rats. Eww 
So that's my reasoning. 


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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_Don_ (12-09-2011)

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## Don

I have a freezer stocked with various sizes of f/t rats and hopper mice.  All of my babies are started on live, then switched over to f/t if they are going on the market.  This is purely for customer convenience, not mine.  If the customer wants something different, I'll make the switch before shipping.  

If they are hold backs, they stay on live - mostly ASFs but occasionally rats when my ASF inventory is low.  Live is a lot more convenient for me and if the snake does not eat, the rat can be fed again the next week.  

My freezer is in the man cave, so the family does not open it or see it.  I do occasionally ask my daughter's friends if they want a mousecicle for dessert or a snack!   :Very Happy:

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## snakesRkewl

I feed only live and have no inclination to feed f/t, I've converted numerous f/t feeders to live  :Very Happy:

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_RobNJ_ (01-08-2012)

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## mommanessy247

honestly it *is* hard for me to have to hear & watch a rat pup die in my snake's grip every 10 days but my girl will not touch anything she didnt kill herself & i know this cuz multiple times i've ended up with a rat dying suddenly for unknown reasons prior to a feeding & i've offered them to my snake anyways & every single time she's refused it, even when i tried to make the rats appear "live", she's not one to be easily fooled.
now to avoid that uneccessary waste i only buy the rats on feeding days.

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## satomi325

I too feed live out of convenience. Most of my snakes are still young and not yet full grown. It's more difficult to order f/t because all of my snakes eat different sized food and I feel like a lot of those f/t rodents would go to waste.

Also, I recently started breeding my own rats. It's just easier to throw a rat into a tub than thaw out and do the zombie rat dance.

And I also feed live rats to my ferrets. It is 120% more healthy for them than eating commercial food (even the high quality brands). Feeding live provides enrichment and exercise for my ferrets when they hunt and take down rats.

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## Annarose15

> honestly it *is* hard for me to have to hear & watch a rat pup die in my snake's grip every 10 days but my girl will not touch anything she didnt kill herself & i know this cuz multiple times i've ended up with a rat dying suddenly for unknown reasons prior to a feeding & i've offered them to my snake anyways & every single time she's refused it, even when i tried to make the rats appear "live", she's not one to be easily fooled.
> now to avoid that uneccessary waste i only buy the rats on feeding days.


I apologize for sidetracking, but is this a BP that you're only feeding a rat pup to every 10 days?

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## alohasiempre

I am just learning here but from my stand as long as you use tongs to suspend the mouse/rat/gerbil over the enclosure or where ever you plan to feed your BP... live is best, natural and safe... I am sure in the wild they get attacked back a LOT more.. of course if I notice that my BPs are getting their ass' whooped by their intended food on the regular I would have to consider that I am either feeding them the wrong size or need to switch to F/T. 
ATM the owner who is giving me my first pair of BPs tomorrow after noon is feeding F/T but says they really don't care for it and will go sometimes too long with out eating but scarf down live.. [besides the idea of dead rats in the freezer un-nerves my daughter in law...lol]
But I could never continue to feed my BP's live if it seem to harm them in any way. Any newbie advice is welcome.. we do have 3 small children in the house but they will not be handleing them until the snakes are 'settled' as the girl we are getting them from has not really 'handled' them much. [ex BF abandoned them with her but she is afraid of them.. feedings freak her out bad too she said, poor thing.]

 :Snake:

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## satomi325

> I am just learning here but from my stand as long as you use tongs to suspend the mouse/rat/gerbil over the enclosure or where ever you plan to feed your BP... live is best, natural and safe... I am sure in the wild they get attacked back a LOT more.. of course if I notice that my BPs are getting their ass' whooped by their intended food on the regular I would have to consider that I am either feeding them the wrong size or need to switch to F/T. 
> ATM the owner who is giving me my first pair of BPs tomorrow after noon is feeding F/T but says they really don't care for it and will go sometimes too long with out eating but scarf down live.. [besides the idea of dead rats in the freezer un-nerves my daughter in law...lol]
> But I could never continue to feed my BP's live if it seem to harm them in any way. Any newbie advice is welcome.. we do have 3 small children in the house but they will not be handleing them until the snakes are 'settled' as the girl we are getting them from has not really 'handled' them much. [ex BF abandoned them with her but she is afraid of them.. feedings freak her out bad too she said, poor thing.]


If you plan on feeding live, I suggest finding a source where the rats are fairly tame. I just recently started breeding my own rats to be social and friendly. I personally find that the more gentle rats don't attack snakes...A rat from an unsocialized colony w/ minimum human contact seemed to be more aggressive in my experience. I'm sure others have had similar and different experiences as I, but this is just my 2 cents.

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## GoingPostal

I breed them so it's a lot easier to grab one out, bring it 5 feet to the snake cage and drop it in, if he's not interested, take it back out and put it in the cage.  Otherwise I'd have to co2 them, freeze them, take them out and thaw hoping he wants to eat that day, heat it up and play with it, he's not interested in f/t anyways.  I also think the fresher the better.

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## rjk890

We raise our own rodents, and feed our snakes what is available at the time.

There are times of feast, when our rattery is producing more then enough rodents that each snake get a live meal or two every 5-7 days, and we still have a large number of rodents that get put down and stored frozen.

Then there are times of famine, when our rodent production gets low.
Usually during hatchling season, when we are taking the litters of pinks, and putting the females right back into breeding rotation.
Every so often, we feed off our current breeders, and grow out the next generation of breeder rodents.
During those lulls we feed off the frozen rodents that were stored during the season of plenty.

I can honestly say that every one of our snakes will take live, p/k, or f/t without showing a preference at all.

I have NEVER fed any of them a mouse, but converted the first 50 animals in our collection over from f/t ASF's, to live regular rats, when they were in the 500g range.
With the exception of one, (a .1 Pastel 66%het TSK Axanthic,) they had no problem making the switch, and even went back and forth while we phased out the ASF's and got our reg. rats going.

That one female was stubborn, but I was even more stubborn.
She was a sporatic eaterfor a while but reached the 1200g range last Winter, at three years old.
I bred her to our Spider het TSK Axanthic, and witnessed two good locks.
She did not go on to give us a clutch, but turned into a very aggressive live rat eater, and has not missed a meal since mid-December 2010 (even in shed.)
She is 2400g, and is locked with our male Pastel het TSK Axanthic right now.

It always baffles me when people talk about how BP's are picky eaters.

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## mainbutter

> If you have a live food eating snake that refuses dead food....do you occasionally still try to transition to F/T?


Yes.

However, I still feed live if they aren't taking dead.

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## purplemuffin

Yeah, most BPs aren't picky when it comes to live, though there are exceptions. 

Though with other snakes..Man, I'll feed f/t like it's no tomorrow with no troubles.  I have no excuse to feed live with Nagini, she'd take a warmed up sock if I offered it, LOL!  :Razz:  

It seems with bps more than any other snake--if you plan to feed f/t..expect difficulties. You might not have troubles, but you have a better chance of struggling to get them to eat..than say trying to feed a boa f/t.

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## wolfy-hound

First, I don't think that refreezing a rodent is a good idea, nor is leaving it out for a day and then feeding it. Dead rats are meat. If you wouldn't leave a piece of chicken out to thaw, refreeze it and consider it healthy, I wouldn't do the same with a whole rat. Especially since the rodents are WHOLE, with guts and fun stuff inside that spoils extremely quickly. IMHO, it's feeding spoiled food.

Second, ball pythons are not domesticated. Domestication takes a lot longer than several generations. Ball pythons raised from hatching in captivity obviously would act differently than a wild caught ball python.  However, if you took a egg from a wild caught ball python, hatched it in captivity, you would get the same behaviors. That's learned behaviors, not domestication. Just a little peeve of mine about using terms in error.

It is all opinion on whether feeding live is 'better and more natural' or 'irresponsible and cruel'. The debate over live vs FT has been done over and over, and will continue to be debated over and over. Some will scream that it's even "immoral" to feed live, no matter what. Some feel it's cruel to not feed live, so that the snake experiances the more natural behavior of hunting and killing it's prey. Both are opinions and as opinions, they are not wrong or right.

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_heathers*bps_ (12-09-2011),Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011),_KingPythons_ (12-09-2011),_Zombie_ (01-08-2012)

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## KingPythons

I've never had a problem with feeding live. Period. If your scare for ur animals safety, I hope you take all the right precautions. Size of prey at times can be people's 1st mistake on why your snake can be ate by it's prey, or hurt. The fact of talking about the wild and saying your snake can get away(or rat) if it wants is ridiculous. Why? Because you shouldn't be leaving your rat in with your ball unless your ball is hungry or etc. I mean that's why your ball is in captivity. Captivity= more responsibility for you. Do your part, work smarter not harder. Consider the scales on your ball python as armor. They know what there doing. Just tired of the danger of feeding live statements.

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_heathers*bps_ (12-09-2011),Jaxx (12-09-2011),LovelyMomma (12-22-2011)

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## blueberrypancakes

I could give you a BS answer and think of some reason that I think live is better for my boy, or steal an answer from a more educated and experienced snake owner... BUT...
For me the honestly for real with facts answer is that I enjoy watching Jackson hunt and kill. Sorry if that offends... 

When his prey gets bigger I will give him p/k, and he does eat it (I've given him f/t before, he takes it with no hesitation). Occasionally the pet store I go to is out of the rat size I give him so I get an adult mouse- and I kill it before I offer it to him. This is because we did have a bad experience with one giving him a good sized gash in the neck.

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## Dragoon

because my male bp just will not switch over even after refusing f/t rats, asf, and gerbils for 6 months and i wasn't comfortable going any longer due to lost weight.  not much lost weight but the instant a live rat was dropped in he took it.

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## Tarawr88

My Ukki was an avid live-eater when I got him, refusing the mice I bought and killed FOR him, but if the mouse ran, he was all in to eat. I didn't have a local supplier for Frozen/Thawed mice where I lived (even travelled 20 minutes to get the live mice for him).

He had always been a live-eater-- the person I bought him from had him eating several live rat pups per week since she kept mostly redtails and he was the only ball python she had (and ultimately why she sold him.)

That said, the few times he did get bit, I was told by my vet to just put neosporin on him to promote healing (and he healed up very well, and I'm VERY thankful for that). It made me a nervous wreck to feed him and I eventually got to the point where I'd wait for him to strike the mouse, then I'd stick a ruler in for the mouse to bite JUST to be sure it didn't bite him. The happiest day for me was the day he, for whatever reason, switched himself over to Frozen/Thawed rats after I moved to Madison.

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## Missy King

> First, I don't think that refreezing a rodent is a good idea, nor is leaving it out for a day and then feeding it. Dead rats are meat. If you wouldn't leave a piece of chicken out to thaw, refreeze it and consider it healthy, I wouldn't do the same with a whole rat. Especially since the rodents are WHOLE, with guts and fun stuff inside that spoils extremely quickly. IMHO, it's feeding spoiled food.


There is no problem refreezing. The cold needed to freeze the meat, kills bacteria. Not to mention, ball pythons will eat found food "in the wild" and will, and do, eat "found" food in captivity. My dumeril's boas will ONLY eat food i leave out for them. Feel free to find facts to disprove that a ball will eat already dead, and/or slightly "gone bad" food. Also feel free to find out if freezing things will kill most bacteria.




> Second, ball pythons are not domesticated. Domestication takes a lot longer than several generations.


Please be specific....how many generations is "several"? I would think a breeder like say, Corey Woods, or Raph Davis have a considerable amount of generations under their belt. Quite a bit more than "several". 
Just a glance from wikipedia "Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. In the Convention on Biological Diversity a domesticated species is defined as a 'species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs'[1]. Therefore, a defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans."

It would not take more than -my- definition of "Several" ...for generations of ball pythons to become more quickly adapted to captivity, humans, and though would still have an instinct to kill for food...would be dimmed into thinking f/t is perfectly fine.





> Ball pythons raised from hatching in captivity obviously would act differently than a wild caught ball python.  However, if you took a egg from a wild caught ball python, hatched it in captivity, you would get the same behaviors. That's learned behaviors, not domestication. Just a little peeve of mine about using terms in error.


A learned behavior is exactly that...something learned. Any hatchling would only have instinct. I think you've used the term in error...did you pet peeve yourself? lol 
The two hatchlings may have the same basic instincts, however a domesticated/captive bred animal would adapt far quicker to becoming more docile. The captive bred animal accepting any new Learned Behavior of being domesticated, quicker than the wild caught animals that still have a high instinct....because it hasn't been bred out of them over "several" generations.




> It is all opinion on whether feeding live is 'better and more natural' or 'irresponsible and cruel'. The debate over live vs FT has been done over and over, and will continue to be debated over and over. Some will scream that it's even "immoral" to feed live, no matter what. Some feel it's cruel to not feed live, so that the snake experiances the more natural behavior of hunting and killing it's prey. Both are opinions and as opinions, they are not wrong or right.


It shouldn't be opinion at all, however it's easier for people to justify their feeding, or their not feeding, as so. There are facts, which is what I asked for, though I have not seen many in response.  So, you are correct in say both are opinions, really I just wish people would say more than their opinion.

It should be looked at by a case by case basis, such as it would factually be more appropriate to feed a wild caught, or a higher instinct snake live food...compared to a more domesticated animal that has say....been, handled, picked, chosen, bred and sold to be docile.  

There is a NOVA study done on dogs wild foxes that shows that a wild pack, which had been bred, and had certain foxes with certain traits selected for less more than three generations ended with an end group of happy, licking, lovable foxes...and another group of violent, angry, afraid, wild and snarling pups. 

SO really, despite how I am actually not someone who feeds my snakes live, and will have no problem trying to transition a live eater to f/t...i in no way think it's a needed "excitement" or "better" for the snake, or "cruel" to the snake to not let it eat live. Unless I actually walk outside and pick up a random snake, the snakes I have are in the pet trade, and have been bred in the pet trade. They are a portion domesticated, you must concede, and will adapt easier and fuller to the conditions i'd prefer for their safety.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of people don't have a yay or nay opinion, as much as it's easier for them to feed their snakes live. That is a fact i was looking for....not an opinion.

It also seems like a lot of people are really responsible, and try to keep their snakes safe. I really like that. There is no reason to have the snake hurt, at all. We are the captors, protectors, and caregivers for our pets. and they ARE pets... they ARE captive...it's up to us to keep them in safe situations.
I know I appreciate reading that people don't leave their pets alone with other animals that could harm them. I've seen too many hurt animals from irresponsible people!

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## Missy King

Actually the other question i asked was, do you debilitate the food before giving it to your snake? And how? A quick bop in the head? 

IF you feed f/t...how do you keep the food item warm? Usually my pets slither around, see it, stop, strike, and eat it pretty quickly. But every now and then one sniffs around it for a long time before consuming, and I think it's because the food item cools off. They still eat it, but Id' like to find a more efficient way to keep it warm for them.

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## Faerylee

I have one snake refusing f/t right now, other wise it's all f/t.  And with feeding the one live, I stun the rats (yup, a quick bop on the head) and hold them in front of the snake, and he gobbles them up right away, yet he refuses f/t... bugger!  :Razz: 
As for keeping the rodent warm, I've honestly never bothered.  If they don't eat it right away, they eat it cold over night, and if they refuse that meal, they wait till next feeding time.

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## rabernet

I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them. 

I've fed well over 15K live prey, with no issues or injuries. I don't have a calculator handy to do the percentages, but even if I had say 3 significant injuries in 15K feedings, it's much less than a 1% risk of injury. It's something like .0003% chance. 

I have no desire to thaw out 60+ rodents every week, nor the time to do the zombie dance to 60+ snakes. 

Ball pythons are well designed to quickly and efficiently dispatch their prey. I open a tub, drop rat in, listen for the thump, and repeat - 59 more times.

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FalconPunch (12-18-2011),GreatBalls (01-12-2012),Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011),_KingPythons_ (12-12-2011),_rjk890_ (12-12-2011)

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## Twist

I fed all of my snakes live. My most recent snake - a retic, will eat live or pk. The first few times I fed her pk I did the zombie dance, she came out from under her log, and stuck. That's great and all, but it's so much different than feeding her live. She's in a 55gal aquarium with looooots of foliage,obstacles and hides and a multi level system of sorts. She'll actually stalk her mouse or rat for 10-15 minutes till it dawns on her "hey that's food". The feeding response is crazy, after the first mouse the next one (if the pet store is out of small rats) goes almost instantly. In our efforts to make it as safe as we can for them we're turning their lives into a dull existance. They live in an enclosure for 90% of their lives. It's the least I can do for her, is give her a bit of excitement. After the first one she's.all excited and wobbly and twitchy. It makes me happy because I know she's.got some adrenaline going through her little body for the first time that week. If the strike isn't a headshot and there's room to maneuver and bite, I end the rodents struggle right there. I supervise the entire feeding session. One rat bite on the snakes body isn't going to cause major damage unless its on the head. All of these horrible pictures you see on the internet of snakes being gnawed down to the spine are from irresponsible owners leaving rats in with their snakes overnight. 

Feed live but do it responsibly or feed pk/ft. That's how I see it. 

Sent from my EVO 3D using Tapatalk

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## Egapal

I love that you are trying to come at this from a fact based perspective. Let me first comment on a few things you mention




> There is no problem refreezing. The cold needed to freeze the meat, kills bacteria. Not to mention, ball pythons will eat found food "in the wild" and will, and do, eat "found" food in captivity. My dumeril's boas will ONLY eat food i leave out for them. Feel free to find facts to disprove that a ball will eat already dead, and/or slightly "gone bad" food. Also feel free to find out if freezing things will kill most bacteria.


I would only refreeze once. After that I would not trust it. I could be wrong on this. What do you think?





> Please be specific....how many generations is "several"? I would think a breeder like say, Corey Woods, or Raph Davis have a considerable amount of generations under their belt. Quite a bit more than "several". 
> Just a glance from wikipedia "Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. In the Convention on Biological Diversity a domesticated species is defined as a 'species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs'[1]. Therefore, a defining characteristic of domestication is artificial selection by humans."
> 
> It would not take more than -my- definition of "Several" ...for generations of ball pythons to become more quickly adapted to captivity, humans, and though would still have an instinct to kill for food...would be dimmed into thinking f/t is perfectly fine.
> 
> 
> A learned behavior is exactly that...something learned. Any hatchling would only have instinct. I think you've used the term in error...did you pet peeve yourself? lol 
> The two hatchlings may have the same basic instincts, however a domesticated/captive bred animal would adapt far quicker to becoming more docile. The captive bred animal accepting any new Learned Behavior of being domesticated, quicker than the wild caught animals that still have a high instinct....because it hasn't been bred out of them over "several" generations.


Ok you said a lot here but lets look at the nova special on fox. The Russians took the tamest 3 or so percent of the fox at a fur farm to start this study and then domesticated selecting for the most tame. The ball python community is not selecting for most likely to eat F/T and therefor there is very little change in that behavior. Domestication is not a single thing. It's much more complicated than that.




> It shouldn't be opinion at all, however it's easier for people to justify their feeding, or their not feeding, as so. There are facts, which is what I asked for, though I have not seen many in response.  So, you are correct in say both are opinions, really I just wish people would say more than their opinion.
> 
> It should be looked at by a case by case basis, such as it would factually be more appropriate to feed a wild caught, or a higher instinct snake live food...compared to a more domesticated animal that has say....been, handled, picked, chosen, bred and sold to be docile.


You are right that it should be based on more than opinion but you can't force people to make decisions the way you feel they should. Also Ball Pythons have not been bred and sold to be docile. They are naturally docile and they have been bred for their color morphs or not selected for above and beyond, those that survive in captivity have a chance to breed. Don't forget a large number of BP's sold in pet shops are very few if any generations removed from the wild.  




> There is a NOVA study done on dogs wild foxes that shows that a wild pack, which had been bred, and had certain foxes with certain traits selected for less more than three generations ended with an end group of happy, licking, lovable foxes...and another group of violent, angry, afraid, wild and snarling pups. 
> 
> SO really, despite how I am actually not someone who feeds my snakes live, and will have no problem trying to transition a live eater to f/t...i in no way think it's a needed "excitement" or "better" for the snake, or "cruel" to the snake to not let it eat live. Unless I actually walk outside and pick up a random snake, the snakes I have are in the pet trade, and have been bred in the pet trade. They are a portion domesticated, you must concede, and will adapt easier and fuller to the conditions i'd prefer for their safety.


I believe you are 100% correct that the snakes don't "need excitement." These snakes just want to eat. The reason they constrict F/T is not necessarily because they are fooled into believing the rodent is alive. They have evolved to assume prey is alive as failure to do so can and does result in bites that can lead to death. I don't concede that BP are partially domesticated though. I don't see at as relevant regardless.




> Anyway, it seems like a lot of people don't have a yay or nay opinion, as much as it's easier for them to feed their snakes live. That is a fact i was looking for....not an opinion.
> 
> It also seems like a lot of people are really responsible, and try to keep their snakes safe. I really like that. There is no reason to have the snake hurt, at all. We are the captors, protectors, and caregivers for our pets. and they ARE pets... they ARE captive...it's up to us to keep them in safe situations.
> I know I appreciate reading that people don't leave their pets alone with other animals that could harm them. I've seen too many hurt animals from irresponsible people!


The fact is that many snakes won't easily take F/T so that alone is a big reason many people feed live. I also feed my BP live. I don't feed my diamond x jungle carpet live anymore. To explain my carpet is now eating adult rodents and will take F/T or pre killed. She has also proven to be a great eater. For that reason and out of concern for her safty I feed her pre killed or F/T. My BP is a totally different story. She won't take anything but live. Now I have stopped trying to switch her to F/T and will never try again for good reason. She is a bad eater. I have fussed over husbandry and she just is a bad eater. So on her last 160 day fast I offered her a rodent every 10 days. That's 15 refusals. If I refreeze once (as earlier I said I won't do so more than once) I would have thrown at least 7 rodents away. Now I have no problem with a rodent dying to feed my snake. I do have a problem with a rodent dying to feed my trash. So now that I have a carpet that will shortly be on the same size rodent I could offer F/T again but with her eating as infrequently as she does I think it would be irresponsible of me to even potentially be the cause of a refusal when she might have eaten live. There are reasons why a person would feed live. Having told us all that you have I see no good reason whatsoever why YOU should feed live.

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## WingedWolfPsion

1) New hatchlings vastly prefer live, and some of my adults refuse to eat anything else.  I see trying to start hatchlings on F/T as a waste of time.  They can be switched over later.  Also, convincing 70 uncertain hatchlings to eat F/T takes hours and hours.

2) It takes 2 hours (or less) to feed live to a collection of 100 snakes.  It takes 4 hours to feed F/T.  Uneaten live rodents in a closed collection, during the breeding season, can be returned to my rodent rack.  Uneaten F/T goes in the trash.

3) No fussing with dangling a rodent over a marginally interested snake's head for 15 minutes while it makes up its mind.

4) It is possible that live or fresh PK is somewhat more nutritious than F/T.

That having been said, F/T is much safer, and I try to get my animals to accept it.  I fed primarily F/T until a local rodent breeder set up shop here, enabling me to pick up rodent orders every week.  It's just been easier to feed live since then.  I may switch back to part F/T for animals I want to feed more often than once a week, though.

Live feedings must be carefully supervised.  If a snake is inept at it, use PK.

If you have a smaller collection, and you can use F/T, I'd advise using F/T.  When I have an employee, I will switch back to primarily F/T.

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## Richard Hanson

I've heard it isn't a terrible idea to sprinkle some rat/mouse food in the corner to distract the prey!

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## Bellabob

I've noticed that after a while of feeding f/t (if the snake was eating live before) they become very sluggish and inactive. They won't actually strike and coil, they'll just put their mouth on it and start swallowing. 

I feed a mixture of both (all of my snakes will take either live or pre killed). They seem healthier and more alert when feeding live.

Just my two cents.

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Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011)

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## akjadlnfkjfdkladf

> I think the main reason people feed live is convenience (it's just an opinion, it may not be the truth). I reason this because I find most people who feed live breed the feeders themselves, so there is less processing of the rat.


that assumes there's more effort in thawing a few rats a week than raising a rat colony.  

feeding live is super convenient because you can just _buy_ one and give it to the snake without any preparation needed.  another huge plus to this is you don't need to keep a freezer full of rats.

i'll personally resort to feeding live if the snake won't take frozen, and there are plenty of snakes that will either only eat live or eat live muchhh more readily

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## KingPythons

> I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them. 
> 
> I've fed well over 15K live prey, with no issues or injuries. I don't have a calculator handy to do the percentages, but even if I had say 3 significant injuries in 15K feedings, it's much less than a 1% risk of injury. It's something like .0003% chance. 
> 
> I have no desire to thaw out 60+ rodents every week, nor the time to do the zombie dance to 60+ snakes. 
> 
> Ball pythons are well designed to quickly and efficiently dispatch their prey. I open a tub, drop rat in, listen for the thump, and repeat - 59 more times.


Couldn't of said it better!

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## SlitherinSisters

I feed live, to be honest, because it is easier. I breed my own rats, and my snakes readily take live rats. I don't like the hassle of thawing/warming live rats, it stinks and it's gross. I love rats, I have had pet rats for 5 years, but I would be prefer feeding live over frozen. I don't, however, enjoy watching/hearing the rats die. I really don't watch the snakes eat.

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_KingPythons_ (12-14-2011)

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## ChuckSM

Frozen is cheaper and easier since that dead rat wont try to kill your snake running for its life but...

Sometimes the snake just wants something on the run and they can not pull up to the drive thru

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## KingPythons

> I feed live, to be honest, because it is easier. I breed my own rats, and my snakes readily take live rats. I don't like the hassle of thawing/warming live rats, it stinks and it's gross. I love rats, I have had pet rats for 5 years, but I would be prefer feeding live over frozen. I don't, however, enjoy watching/hearing the rats die. I really don't watch the snakes eat.


I just hope ppl don't use bowls or cups to put the rat to thaw in. That's gross. Just dead animals in peoples fridge besides pork, chicken etc is gross lol.  Just saying.

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SlitherinSisters (12-15-2011)

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## Rogue628

> I just hope ppl don't use bowls or cups to put the rat to thaw in. That's gross. Just dead animals in peoples fridge besides pork, chicken etc is gross lol.  Just saying.


I think most are like me and have a dedicated freezer for frozen feeders. I also have dedicated round plastic storage containers that I use to thaw mine out. They look completely different than all my other storage containers so they never accidentally get put with my food containers...and are kept by the freezer. 

Almost all of my snakes came to me eating f/t. I have had one so far that would only take live. I didn't attempt to force the issue of f/t on her. Each week I'd attempt f/t and she'd show no interest so I'd feed her live. She eventually decided to take f/t. 

Years ago when I used to keep snakes, I only fed live because that's what I was told to do....it was best for them. It wasn't until I rescued a burm and watched the battle* I immediately looked for an alternative, which was f/t. All my animals had no issues making the switch either. 

*ok it wasn't a real battle. I just couldn't stand watching the rat claw and try to bite my snake as it was being squeezed to death. I was scared he was going to hurt my snake!

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## Redneck_Crow

I'm currently feeding live to the ones who aren't off feed for breeding season.  The reason is because neither of them will accept f/t or even prekilled.  

I've tried multiple times on the one and a couple of times on the baby and it's a no-go so far.  I wish those two would switch over.  Their food stinks and has to be fed and cleaned up after.

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## John1982

I think it's up to the owner to decide what's more convenient to them.  We could argue all day the pros and cons of F/T vs F/K vs live and really get nowhere as each method has its merits.

I do wonder from those who think their snakes are happier one way or another, how do you know this? I honestly don't think a snake gives two farts one way or another but that's just me.

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Missy King (12-15-2011),_Redneck_Crow_ (12-14-2011)

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## John1982

Forgot to add, I usually feed f/t, sometimes fresh killed and seldom live. I do offer food to the shy feeders first so if they don't feed I can just give the dead rodent to one of my other animals so as not to waste unnecessarily.

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## Missy King

You are so right, John1982.

AH, i had this huuuge post with questions, pics, and responses, and the darn thing lost internet connection as i was posting and i lost it all. I gave up posting for a day i was so irritated *lol* that hasn't happened to me before in 13 years on the internet so i guess i was due.

ANYway...the main thing i had wanted to comment on was rabernet, who said "I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them."

I'll just be blunt here and ask why you think it's okay that your other snakes are allowed blemishes, or scratches, or worse...but your favorite isn't. That is like admitting that yes, they DO get hurt from live food...but you have one that is more worthy of not getting hurt.
Just weird.

Egapal, i had what i thought was a great debate to respond with, but i'll just shorten it to that I think f/t can be re-frozen as many times as it takes, as long as there is no introduced bacteria that is resilient to freezing....or there is no freezer burn.
That is also why i think it's weird people insist they have to throw out food, if the snake doesn't eat it the first try. F/T are way cheaper than live, at least for me. In a year, i think i've thrown out two mice because they became too rank.
In the wild, BPs will eat corpses of rodents, etc. They do that at my house too...one of my dumeril's won't even take food unless it's left in her cage for a few hours. The previous owner said she was afraid of live, so i haven't tried....which if i did, i would probably still go for a bop on the head first!

I do concede that perhaps BPs are not fully domesticated, as i did look it up and they are constantly imported (which i think is ridiculous and unnecessary). You are right in saying they were chosen as a great pet because they are mostly naturally docile...
Still, I would say that a good portion of them have been domesticated to a point, since as i copied earlier " from wikipedia 'Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.' "

I mean, that has to be agreed with a little bit! It's not just opinion!
The fact that they ARE docile naturally...and those are the ones chosen from the wild, and those are the ones who are bred in captivity, means they are perposely selected, and become accostomed to human provision and control....even if we take the food out of it all together...they rely on us for everything else. I know one of my BPs checks his water dish EVERY day for fresh water. (It's quite cute actually  :Smile: 
He's actually the most violent dude i have besides my carpet python.
His name is "Bitey" LOL
He snatches his food, and will protect it (not just look over it for a good place to start eating), and he will CHARGE you, and try to chase you away if you come near. That's funny too, but i really try to stay away from him when he's eating *lol* My other 3 bps, and my other many snakes act nothing like this.
But the brat still waits for his human go give him water!
That is, to me, a clear sign of domestication, even at a small level.

Anyway, i don't think i can change anyone's opinion. I don't really like the idea of feeding live...but i understand the need in CERTAIN cases. As for people with like 60 snakes, i feel it's just lazy. No offense, but really...we cage them, provide for them, and they could not survive in captivity without us...so why wouldn't we at least WATCH to make sure they are  not hurt? Of course their scales provide protection...that's how they were designed. They are more durable than our skin...which is OUR protection..but that doesn't mean it's invulnerable or like armor or something. Jeez, These are two of my rescue snakes.

Jasper has a huge scar along his underside from the kick of a rabbit...not to mention numerous bite marks and messed up scales from rats.




Ribs (so called because he was 1.5lbs at 4 feet in length and almost dead from dehydration and starvation) has a scarred over nostril...though you can't see it very well here, though you can see the tail scar.




Just really unnecessary. If we don't have the time to watch our animals and make sure they are safe and not getting "Blemmishes" then we just shouldn't own the animal. If we have so many we can't make the time? Same thing.

These may be extreme cases...though I have seen and heard of worse...but WHY risk it? Why? Because it's easier for us, or we're lazy? *snort* that's just wrong.

I am fine with live if you beat it on the head, and WATCH your snake. Whatever is cheaper for you, fine, but i cringe when i hear all these people saying they have double figure #'s of snakes and they just throw food in there.

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## WingedWolfPsion

I've seen a rat attack a snake when introduced to a bin exactly once, in 4 years of feeding ball pythons.  
In the vast majority of cases, a rat will not actually go after a snake unless it's left alone with the snake for hours.  I drop rats in, observe briefly, and close the bin.  I come back through and remove all of the uneaten rodents 10 minutes later.  Some of my snakes absolutely will not eat if I have the bin open.  What is ideal isn't always practical.  I have some snakes that will eat anything you hand to them--FT off tongs, off the cage floor, live, whatever--as soon as it hits the bin, they grab it.  Other snakes need privacy, and a bit longer to make up their mind.

It's absolutely not safe to leave live rodents in with snakes for long periods of time, but short periods of time aren't too terribly likely to result in anything drastic happening, other than an eaten rodent.

Even FT is not 100% safe, you know.  Rodents have long, sharp teeth, and there have been rare incidents...but far more than just one...where snakes have died after eating because those teeth perforated their esophagus.  We can't protect them from everything.

Ideally, they eat FT...but it's better for them to eat something, than to be offered FT and refuse more often than not.  Some snakes just don't accept it well.  

I've had more snakes find creative ways to minorly injure themselves on water bowls than I have seen injured by rodents.

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Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011)

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## Missy King

> Some of my snakes absolutely will not eat if I have the bin open.  What is ideal isn't always practical.  I have some snakes that will eat anything you hand to them--FT off tongs, off the cage floor, live, whatever--as soon as it hits the bin, they grab it.  Other snakes need privacy, and a bit longer to make up their mind.


Little brats *lol* and understood. Case by case is of course realistic.




> It's absolutely not safe to leave live rodents in with snakes for long periods of time, but short periods of time aren't too terribly likely to result in anything drastic happening, other than an eaten rodent.


 Indeed! I just hope people realize that. I just got the impression that people just throw one in, and that's it. Until next feeding. They're too busy to worry about it, kind of thing. I really hope that's not the case for anyone.




> Even FT is not 100% safe, you know.  Rodents have long, sharp teeth, and there have been rare incidents...but far more than just one...where snakes have died after eating because those teeth perforated their esophagus.  We can't protect them from everything.


 That is a fact! I must admit, not too long ago I heard of this happening to a snake. I got all paranoid. Unless i sit there pulling rat teeth though, what am I going to do about it? I can clip toenails...or at least in our case we soak our meals until they thaw, and then warm, so i'm sure the keratin in then nails soften...so i don't usually cut them down. But teeth...if they're going to get hurt sometimes, they just are. I try to mother and protect them as much as i can, though *lol*




> Ideally, they eat FT...but it's better for them to eat something, than to be offered FT and refuse more often than not.  Some snakes just don't accept it well.


  Yup. But, that doesn't mean i'm not going to keep trying, or not bop it in the head, or freeze it if it dies, and try to refeed anyway *lol* I guess i just want to hear that it's worth the time, for people to take that little extra step. I know i'm not going to change anyone's mind, but maybe they'll just think about things a little differently sometimes. Hey, prevention is the first cure.




> I've had more snakes find creative ways to minorly injure themselves on water bowls than I have seen injured by rodents.


LOL That is true. I do realize i'm putting extreme cases out there. My problem is not even really live food...it's the attitude, and lack of enthusiasim i see sometimes. 

Anyway...One last question I forgot about! If you feed live...what do you do about fleas?? I'm going to be treating a snake next week (after the good'ol paycheck) for tapeworms. I've read that they get these, from the fleas ingested along with live food.

Thoughts?

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## Egapal

> Egapal, i had what i thought was a great debate to respond with, but i'll just shorten it to that I think f/t can be re-frozen as many times as it takes, as long as there is no introduced bacteria that is resilient to freezing....or there is no freezer burn.


If you believe this strongly then I would suggest you try this experiment. Buy two steaks. Freeze them both. Thaw one and then leave it out on the counter for a few hours then refreeze it. Repeat this more than twice and then thaw them both cook them. Let me know if you can taste a difference. The cells walls rupture when ice crystals form. If you do this more than a few times it really changes what you are eating.




> That is also why i think it's weird people insist they have to throw out food, if the snake doesn't eat it the first try. F/T are way cheaper than live, at least for me. In a year, i think i've thrown out two mice because they became too rank.


You are lucky. Did you read my story about my snake that did not eat for 9 months. I am glad you brought up that frozen is cheaper. I don't care about that. I care about minimizing the suffering and death that I cause. I have seen how some of these big places raise their rodents and I am much happier with the quality of life my rodents have.




> In the wild, BPs will eat corpses of rodents, etc. They do that at my house too...one of my dumeril's won't even take food unless it's left in her cage for a few hours. The previous owner said she was afraid of live, so i haven't tried....which if i did, i would probably still go for a bop on the head first!


BP's also starve to death in the wild, get eaten by birds of prey and contract various parasites from the corpses they eat in the wild. I am not at all convinced by the "Well in the wild" argument. So I will just ignore this part.




> Still, I would say that a good portion of them have been domesticated to a point, since as i copied earlier " from wikipedia 'Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.' "


Please explain to me how your snake is any different from one caught in the wild. There is no selection for behavior going on that I can see in the BP trade. So I say again you are not reading that critically. The part about being accustomed to human provision and control has to be as a result of human selective breeding over time. Compare a dog to a wolf, and likewise I can provide a long list of domestic animals that look and act nothing like their wild ancestors. Conversely people can and do pass off wild BP as captive bred all the time.




> I mean, that has to be agreed with a little bit! It's not just opinion!
> The fact that they ARE docile naturally...and those are the ones chosen from the wild, and those are the ones who are bred in captivity, means they are perposely selected, and become accostomed to human provision and control..


No I don't agree at all and it is just your opinion. You first premise is false and so your entire argument is flawed. People do not, did not, and from what I can tell won't select BP from the wild that are more docile. I have read about and watched videos of BP being captured in the wild. I have never seen any selection for temperament and I have not heard anyone suggesting that their is such selection.




> ..even if we take the food out of it all together...they rely on us for everything else. I know one of my BPs checks his water dish EVERY day for fresh water. (It's quite cute actually 
> He's actually the most violent dude i have besides my carpet python.
> His name is "Bitey" LOL
> He snatches his food, and will protect it (not just look over it for a good place to start eating), and he will CHARGE you, and try to chase you away if you come near. That's funny too, but i really try to stay away from him when he's eating *lol* My other 3 bps, and my other many snakes act nothing like this.
> But the brat still waits for his human go give him water!
> That is, to me, a clear sign of domestication, even at a small level.


All you have demonstrated with your story is an ability to learn patterns. This is not a sign of domestication. A tiger in a zoo might learn when feeding time is, its not domesticated. A gorilla can be taught sign language. Still not domesticated. If you think that your snake waiting for water is a sign of domestication then you don't understand what domestication is.





> Anyway, i don't think i can change anyone's opinion. I don't really like the idea of feeding live...but i understand the need in CERTAIN cases. As for people with like 60 snakes, i feel it's just lazy. No offense, but really...we cage them, provide for them, and they could not survive in captivity without us...so why wouldn't we at least WATCH to make sure they are  not hurt? Of course their scales provide protection...that's how they were designed. They are more durable than our skin...which is OUR protection..but that doesn't mean it's invulnerable or like armor or something. Jeez, These are two of my rescue snakes.


Ok what you are doing here is called constructing a straw man. Of course they can't survive in captivity without us. Mice will virtually never climb into a tank that a snake can't get out of. The prevailing wisdom on this forum is that if you feed live you watch the feeding. You will see advice all over this forum saying you should not feed live unattended. In fact their scales are like armor. We as humans designed armor to mimic reptiles scales. No one said they were invulnerable.




> Jasper has a huge scar along his underside from the kick of a rabbit...not to mention numerous bite marks and messed up scales from rats.


No respected member of this forum would feed a rabbit capable of doing that to their BP. This is not a picture of what happens when you feed live.




> Ribs (so called because he was 1.5lbs at 4 feet in length and almost dead from dehydration and starvation) has a scarred over nostril...though you can't see it very well here, though you can see the tail scar.


Dehydration and starvation are not from feeding live. The scars are sad but once again if they came from feeding live its certainly not indicative of all keepers.




> Just really unnecessary. If we don't have the time to watch our animals and make sure they are safe and not getting "Blemmishes" then we just shouldn't own the animal. If we have so many we can't make the time? Same thing.
> 
> These may be extreme cases...though I have seen and heard of worse...but WHY risk it? Why? Because it's easier for us, or we're lazy? *snort* that's just wrong.
> 
> I am fine with live if you beat it on the head, and WATCH your snake. Whatever is cheaper for you, fine, but i cringe when i hear all these people saying they have double figure #'s of snakes and they just throw food in there.


You are upset with your idea of feeding live. It doesn't match the reality of most snake keepers. I could give you thousands of pictures of people who have died horribly in car accidents. Non of that is a solid argument against driving. Crossing the road can go horribly wrong too but you aren't a bad parent for letting your kids do it. Sure if you let them cross at a young age without supervisions but you would have to witness that to condemn that person. You can't just judge people without knowing the details. Its just not that simple.

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_heathers*bps_ (01-08-2012),Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011),_rperry03_ (12-22-2011),_satomi325_ (12-22-2011),_zeion97_ (12-28-2011)

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## Egapal

> I just hope ppl don't use bowls or cups to put the rat to thaw in. That's gross. Just dead animals in peoples fridge besides pork, chicken etc is gross lol.  Just saying.


 LOL.. yeah a chopped up dead cow, chicken or pig is fine but a mouse....GROSS. Come on lets all be adults here its just a dead mouse. I will literally lick my fingers after eating dead chicken how gross is this really.

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_heathers*bps_ (01-08-2012),Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011),_rperry03_ (12-22-2011),_satomi325_ (12-22-2011)

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## Wh00h0069

The only reason that I feed live to some of my snakes is they refuse to eat anything other than live. I try my best to switch them, but I will not starve my snakes just because they refuse to take f/t.

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## WingedWolfPsion

> Little brats *lol* and understood. Case by case is of course realistic.
> 
>  Indeed! I just hope people realize that. I just got the impression that people just throw one in, and that's it. Until next feeding. They're too busy to worry about it, kind of thing. I really hope that's not the case for anyone.
> 
>  That is a fact! I must admit, not too long ago I heard of this happening to a snake. I got all paranoid. Unless i sit there pulling rat teeth though, what am I going to do about it? I can clip toenails...or at least in our case we soak our meals until they thaw, and then warm, so i'm sure the keratin in then nails soften...so i don't usually cut them down. But teeth...if they're going to get hurt sometimes, they just are. I try to mother and protect them as much as i can, though *lol*
> 
>   Yup. But, that doesn't mean i'm not going to keep trying, or not bop it in the head, or freeze it if it dies, and try to refeed anyway *lol* I guess i just want to hear that it's worth the time, for people to take that little extra step. I know i'm not going to change anyone's mind, but maybe they'll just think about things a little differently sometimes. Hey, prevention is the first cure.
> 
> 
> ...


If the rats you are feeding have FLEAS...omg, find a different supplier!  That's horrifying!  (Not to mention dangerous).
I would never go NEAR anyone who gave me a rat with fleas on it, and I certainly wouldn't feed it to my snakes.

Lice and mites are also not acceptable.  Feeders should be healthy and free of parasites!  If they aren't, then the rodent breeder is doing something VERY wrong.  Sniffles from myco are one thing, but fleas?  Really?

By the way, I see the 'scales like armor' comment, a lot.  Their scales are not like armor, they are like your fingernails, only significantly thinner.  They protect from minor scratches, and that's all.  They will protect a snake from being scratched by a kicking rodent, but rat and mouse teeth will go through them like butter, so don't believe that offers significant protection, lol.
Seriously, rats CAN chew through concrete.

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Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011)

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## satomi325

> I do concede that perhaps BPs are not fully domesticated, as i did look it up and they are constantly imported (which i think is ridiculous and unnecessary). You are right in saying they were chosen as a great pet because they are mostly naturally docile...
> Still, I would say that a good portion of them have been domesticated to a point, since as i copied earlier " from wikipedia 'Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control.' "
> 
> I mean, that has to be agreed with a little bit! It's not just opinion!
> The fact that they ARE docile naturally...*and those are the ones chosen from the wild, and those are the ones who are bred in captivity, means they are perposely selected, and become accostomed to human provision and control....even if we take the food out of it all together...they rely on us for everything else.* I know one of my BPs checks his water dish EVERY day for fresh water. (It's quite cute actually


Ball Pythons, or any snake for the matter, are not domesticated animals. I am an animal biologist pre-vet. I think you misunderstand the wiki definition (and wiki isn't always correct). Domestication is selective breeding for human use and manipulation - to control an animal or plant's behavior and/or to make them dependent on humans for survival. In plants, different parts of a plant are modified for food. For example, a broccoli is a modified flower that was selectively bred. A potato is a modified stem. People have done the same to animals. Animals have had their behaviors modified for human use. (Snakes have not been modified for behavior. Just their looks.) Dogs have been selectively bred from wolves to do certain duties such as herding, retrieving, & guarding. Some dogs, such as terriers, are bred to kill rats. But do they know that the rats are a source of food? Probably not. They were bred to kill vermin, not eat them. (I'm sure there are exceptions). A dog in a city setting can survive off trash and scavenging. You throw that same dog into a remote wilderness, and the chances of survival are low because they are dependent on humans.

Another example, ferrets were originally domesticated from European Polecats to chase and kill rabbits and rodents. Ferreting in the US is illegal and they are now America's #3 pet after cats and dogs. They are also highly dependent on humans for survival. Not just us giving water or pouring kibble into a bowl. Throw a ferret outside and what will they do? They'll die in a matter of days. They don't know how to track prey or build a shelter. Many ferrets don't even know a mouse is a source of food unless specifically trained. The chances of a domestic ferret finding a mouse out in the wild is close to zero. The chances of it walking into someone's house is greater. They are highly dependent on humans because they don't know how to survive naturally. 

I think this is the part you misunderstand. Ball pythons retain their natural instincts from the moment they hatch.  Many domesticated animals do not unless under extreme circumstances that make an animal go feral. (note: feral is not the same as stray and does take multiple generations to reach). Just because we take out a snake's water dish and don't throw a rat into their tub does NOT mean they naturally rely on humans. They rely on humans because they're forced to, not because they don't know how to survive w/o aide. You return a BP(even those that are captive hatched) to Africa, and the chances of their survival is significantly higher than a true domesticated animal returning to the wild.


Also, checking a water bowl is an acclimation, not adaptation to humans or domestication. Acclimation happens w/i an organism's life. Adaptation occurs over many generations.

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Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011)

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## Carbonsnake

After haveing uneaten rats escape and scare the crap out of me when I found them later, I switched to ft. Snakes wouldn't eat for months, never gave them a choice, once they got hungry enough they took them. Never looked back, I order 100+ at a time keep them in a cooler(I like to think it keeps the other food smells off) in a big freezer. So for 10 years now they have been on nothing but ft.

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## Missy King

egapal, i was agreeing with you on most of the things, and trying to debate on the others. You're acting really argumentative and i think taking what i'm saying the wrong way.


BTW what is your definition of domesticated? I copy/pasted the actual definition, so please do, let's see what you come up with. That is why i said you can't argue with it...it IS a fact because that is what the word means. *rolls eyes*

you also said previously that ball pythons were naturally docile. then you just said that they aren't and went on a fussy paragraph to me about how they have, and have never been chosen from the wild because they are docile. *lol* you are really going at it.

ALso, in this thread people have said they throw rats or mice in the cages or tubs, and walk away for hours. I don't know why you're defending the site as if i'm attacking it and saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying i know i won't get people to not feed live, but they can at least watch to make sure the snakes are okay.

also, you can freeze and unfreeze a steak all you want. has nothing to do with the fact that ball pythons will eat dead animals in the wild. has nothing to do with the fact that freezing does kill a lot of bacteria, so that even though the frozen/thawd mouse might stink, and be decaying, it can still be processed by the snake's body. True that wild snakes can and will and may get sick from eating dead animals. But they DO eat them. i don't know why you said i was trying to convince you otherwise or whatever it was you said you couldn't be convinced of. I actually clearly said that though i didn't like it, you should feed your snake what it will eat *shrug* 

THe single only thing i have been trying to convince anyone of was that they should watch their snakes when there is live prey in the bin with them so that they don't get hurt, because they CAN get hurt.
Other than that, i had my question as to WHY people feed live, answered. People worry about cost, and they find it easier to feed live. 
Since finding that out, all i said was that i find it cheaper to feed thawed.
In response, someone else said THEY found it more expensive to throw out uneaten food...to which i said, i have not found it more expensive. That i had only thrown out food a few times. That i DO refreeze, and my snakes are and do NOT get sick.

Not only can that be proven by the fact that my snakes just aren't sick, but freezing DOES kill bacteria that would make them sick. Fact.

If the food item does start to stink, and break down, that bacteria is NOT bad for the snake. 
And, snakes in the wild DO consume rotten or rotting food. Yes those snakes do get sick. There are also other parasites and bacteria working on the wild rotted food item.
ANyway, i was bringing up the "in the wild" thing because....it's just a fact i am using to show you that eating dead food in captivity is not just a captive thing, it is also practiced in the wild. FACT.

WHew...lastly i posted the pics of the snakes, because i was pointing out what happens when you leave snakes unattended with live food items. I did not at all say that feeding live caused dehydration or starvation. Please reread if you think i did. I clearly was just saying what had happened along WITH a poor live feed, for these two snakes. 

I thought you were cool, man.

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## Missy King

> Ball Pythons, or any snake for the matter, are not domesticated animals. I am an animal biologist pre-vet. I think you misunderstand the wiki definition (and wiki isn't always correct).


I used Dictionary.com




> Domestication is selective breeding for human use and manipulation - to control an animal or plant's behavior and/or to make them dependent on humans for survival. ...


  Correct. I agreed with that in my second to last post.




> Dogs have been selectively bred from wolves to do certain duties such as herding, retrieving, & guarding. Some dogs, such as terriers, are bred to kill rats. But do they know that the rats are a source of food? Probably not. They were bred to kill vermin, not eat them. (I'm sure there are exceptions). A dog in a city setting can survive off trash and scavenging. You throw that same dog into a remote wilderness, and the chances of survival are low because they are dependent on humans.


True. However, i have a couple of snakes that have been bred from lines that have been in captivity for 20 years, and one for 15 years. Both of these snakes to not strike their food. THey do not like their food to move. THey only eat dead food. If put in the wild, i believe these two snakes could not take care of themselves, and are therefore, slightly domesticated. They, and their parents, were selected as pets because they were docile, easy going, and content to be reliant on humans for their needs. They were selected, and manipulated by the breeders to continue a line of friendly and easy going f/t eating snakes, because that is what was easiest to sell as a pet. How, by your own definition of domestication, can they not be even slightly domesticated? It's a broad generalization to say that all BPs in captivity were only selected for color and not behavior. This is where i say it strays from fact, and goes into opinion (which i said was frustrating and i didn't like)...because i interpret the definition of domestication to include these two snakes in-particular, based upon their actions and reactions to stimuli. 
You also said 


> (Snakes have not been modified for behavior. Just their looks.)...


 This is a generalization, and I believe that exceptions to this exist....which mean those exceptions fall into the "domesticated" definition. This is an opinion which can be tested to create fact either way it is said. it just CAN be tested, i mean. 
Saying "All ball pythons are domesticated" was incorrect on my part, just as saying "all by pythons are not domesticated" was incorrect on your part. What is more accurate is to say that "It can be proven that many ball pythons do not fit into the domesticated definitions..." thus also concluding that there may be some that can.




> (Snakes have not been modified for behavior. Just their looks.)


 this just frankly cannot be a truth for ALL snakes like this statement implies





> Just because we take out a snake's water dish and don't throw a rat into their tub does NOT mean they naturally rely on humans. They rely on humans because they're forced to, not because they don't know how to survive w/o aide.


 Correct and exactly what i was trying to say...except you go on to say 


> You return a BP(even those that are captive hatched) to Africa, and the chances of their survival is significantly higher than a true domesticated animal returning to the wild.


 which is probably true, however, there are exceptions. Even basic statistics will agree there are exceptions.




> Also, checking a water bowl is an acclimation, not adaptation to humans or domestication. Acclimation happens w/i an organism's life. Adaptation occurs over many generations.


 True. I still think there are many examples of domestication, that come from a few generations of adaptation to the dependence on humans for survival, as stated by the definition of domestication.

With so many generations of snakes out there, and for as many years as they have been being bred, it cannot be a 100% true statement to say that there are not some domesticated bps. That's my point.

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## luvmyballs

We prefer to feed p/k. My snakes prefer that to f/t.. and to be honest its way more convenient to bring home live rats Bonk them on the head and throw them in the feeding tub. Plus we have snakes that wont eat if temp isn't right or in its not still a little bit live.

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## freezingdwarf

I am a breeder and have over a hundred animals.  Most of the rats i breed here, as well as ASF's and Gerbils for those picky females.  I have not been successful in breeding mice, so I buy them generally.  I feed only live rats that are a few weeks old, I have to feed more, but they are not aggressive.  That is until a snake strikes and misses.  I feed in cycles, and do average 30 or so at a time, and one type of rodent at a time.  I have a full time job, so to feed f/t would literally take all of my time.

So, with that said, the scariest thing is with the mice and the smaller snakes.  Mice are the most aggressive.  I keep a kibble of food in to preoccupy the mouse, and keep an eye on all at the same time.

Yes, the bites that come from being coiled happen, and one has to watch for that.  But I have yet to get serious injury.

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## Egapal

> egapal, i was agreeing with you on most of the things, and trying to debate on the others. You're acting really argumentative and i think taking what i'm saying the wrong way.
> 
> 
> BTW what is your definition of domesticated? I copy/pasted the actual definition, so please do, let's see what you come up with. That is why i said you can't argue with it...it IS a fact because that is what the word means. *rolls eyes*


Like I said you clearly don't understand the words you copy and pasted. You did not provide any evidence that BP became accustomed to human provisions and control through selection. 15 or 20 years is not enough time for the generations necessary for any level of domestication without massive selection the likes of which I have never even heard of with BP's. I am argumentative if you define that as disagreeing with you.




> you also said previously that ball pythons were naturally docile. then you just said that they aren't and went on a fussy paragraph to me about how they have, and have never been chosen from the wild because they are docile. *lol* you are really going at it.


I never said they aren't docile. Their natural defense mechanism in the wild is to curl up in a ball. That's not something we domesticated them to do. They do that in the wild. I am not sure what you didn't understand.




> ALso, in this thread people have said they throw rats or mice in the cages or tubs, and walk away for hours. I don't know why you're defending the site as if i'm attacking it and saying it doesn't happen. I'm just saying i know i won't get people to not feed live, but they can at least watch to make sure the snakes are okay.


I am defending this site because you seam to be attacking feeding live with everything you have said. You say you know you won't get people to change but you seam to be suggesting that they should. Feeding live is not the problem. Not watching is a problem and its something that this forum has been very clear about. I agree they should watch when feeding live but its not a case of "at least." There is nothing wrong with feeding live if done correctly.




> also, you can freeze and unfreeze a steak all you want. has nothing to do with the fact that ball pythons will eat dead animals in the wild. has nothing to do with the fact that freezing does kill a lot of bacteria, so that even though the frozen/thawd mouse might stink, and be decaying, it can still be processed by the snake's body. True that wild snakes can and will and may get sick from eating dead animals. But they DO eat them. i don't know why you said i was trying to convince you otherwise or whatever it was you said you couldn't be convinced of. I actually clearly said that though i didn't like it, you should feed your snake what it will eat *shrug*


You again totally missed the point. I can be convinced by good evidence backed arguments. What the animal does in the wild is not a good basis for an argument. Now if you could address the actual point I made. Would you eat a steak that you thawed left out for a few hours, froze, thawed left out for a few hours, froze and then thawed again? I would not and I will not feed a likewise treated rodent to my snakes. 




> THe single only thing i have been trying to convince anyone of was that they should watch their snakes when there is live prey in the bin with them so that they don't get hurt, because they CAN get hurt.
> Other than that, i had my question as to WHY people feed live, answered. People worry about cost, and they find it easier to feed live. 
> Since finding that out, all i said was that i find it cheaper to feed thawed.
> In response, someone else said THEY found it more expensive to throw out uneaten food...to which i said, i have not found it more expensive. That i had only thrown out food a few times. That i DO refreeze, and my snakes are and do NOT get sick.


If all you got from this thread was that people feed live because its easier and they worry about cost then you have missed some really good points. Your point about watching live feedings is taken. Its also one that has been made in nearly every post concerning feeding live on this forum. As for your snakes. The fact that they do NOT get sick is not even close to the only thing that needs to be considered when making decisions on husbandry.




> Not only can that be proven by the fact that my snakes just aren't sick, but freezing DOES kill bacteria that would make them sick. Fact.


I don't mean to be rude but you do not understand how to prove things. You are presenting a correlation that does not prove causation. Live rodents have virtually no chance of getting sick from bacteria from live prey. They do have a chance of picking up parasites that freezing does kill. If parasites were the only thing to consider we would all feed f/t. Unfortunately like I said there is more to consider.




> If the food item does start to stink, and break down, that bacteria is NOT bad for the snake. 
> And, snakes in the wild DO consume rotten or rotting food. Yes those snakes do get sick. There are also other parasites and bacteria working on the wild rotted food item.
> ANyway, i was bringing up the "in the wild" thing because....it's just a fact i am using to show you that eating dead food in captivity is not just a captive thing, it is also practiced in the wild. FACT.


I don't know any other way to say this. Just because something happens in the wild does not mean its good for the snake. You have to prove that its good for the snake. I won't drink milk past the sell by date. It won't make me sick I just have enough money to not bother risking it. I can also afford fresh rodents.




> WHew...lastly i posted the pics of the snakes, because i was pointing out what happens when you leave snakes unattended with live food items. I did not at all say that feeding live caused dehydration or starvation. Please reread if you think i did. I clearly was just saying what had happened along WITH a poor live feed, for these two snakes. 
> 
> I thought you were cool, man.


I am cool man. I am sure we would get along great if we met. I understand why you posted the pics. My point is that we have all seen these pics. We don't feed live because we just never thought about it. Its dishonest of you to put a picture of a BP nearly gutted by a rabbit in a thread where you are trying to make the point that feeding F/T is safer. It's simply not relevant in that it was hurt by a rabbit. Nearly no one would consider feeding a rabbit to their BP and if they did it would be a baby not capable of the damage you showed. By posing that picture you are saying that we are putting our snakes at that kind of risk without actually saying the words. That's just dishonest. The picture of the dehydrated starved snake is equally not relevant. Its an emotional plea. I thought you were cool too. That's why I gave you an honest detailed response. That's why I have taken the time to respond to each of the points you have made. Are you trying to say that disagreeing with you makes me not cool or is in the passion with which I speak?

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Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011),_satomi325_ (12-24-2011),_zeion97_ (12-28-2011)

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## Egapal

> True. I still think there are many examples of domestication, that come from a few generations of adaptation to the dependence on humans for survival, as stated by the definition of domestication.
> 
> With so many generations of snakes out there, and for as many years as they have been being bred, it cannot be a 100% true statement to say that there are not some domesticated bps. That's my point.


Ok so in this last post of yours you are arguing with someone who is being trained in animal biology toward becoming a vet. Do you have any training, education, or research into what domestication is? Simply reading the wiki definition is not going to cut it here. You don't appear to have the background biology studies to be making the kind of arguments you are making. The point you keep missing is that it doesn't matter how many generations of animal are bread in captivity. The relevant issue is whether or not there has been a selective breeding in order to make them easier to keep in captivity that has resulted in a change in the animal from its wild counterparts. This is not the case with BPs. We have selected the ball pythons that get to breed based on colors and there has been little to no change in the captive animals behavior vs the wild. This is further proven by the constant influx of wild BPs to the trade. Even if there has been some change it doesn't prove your point. The changes have to be fairly drastic, bordering on or flat out leading to speciation.

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rabernet (12-28-2011),_satomi325_ (12-24-2011)

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## Missy King

egapal, you said "I don't know any other way to say this. Just because something happens in the wild does not mean its good for the snake. You have to prove that its good for the snake. I won't drink milk past the sell by date. It won't make me sick I just have enough money to not bother risking it. I can also afford fresh rodents."

I didn't say i couldn't afford fresh rodents. I said that fresh vs f/t seems to be a problem for people due to cost. I also said i found it cheaper *shrug*

I think eating is good for the snake. I do disagree with your argumentation method. 

I don't know why you wouldn't drink milk past the SELL date, if it is still good. If it's expired, it's not necessarily bad. If it GOES bad throw it it...humans also do not have the ability to fight off bacteria from "bad" food...where as ball pythons can eat food that has been dead for a long time, not refrigerated, and by our standards, spoiled. That is just a fact.


You wrote "Ok so in this last post of yours you are arguing with someone who is being trained in animal biology toward becoming a vet. Do you have any training, education, or research into what domestication is? Simply reading the wiki definition is not going to cut it here. You don't appear to have the background biology studies to be making the kind of arguments you are making. The point you keep missing is that it doesn't matter how many generations of animal are bread in captivity. The relevant issue is whether or not there has been a selective breeding in order to make them easier to keep in captivity that has resulted in a change in the animal from its wild counterparts. This is not the case with BPs. We have selected the ball pythons that get to breed based on colors and there has been little to no change in the captive animals behavior vs the wild. This is further proven by the constant influx of wild BPs to the trade. Even if there has been some change it doesn't prove your point. The changes have to be fairly drastic, bordering on or flat out leading to speciation."

You have no idea if i have studied biology extensively and have 14 degrees, or if i'm a 13 year old kid posing as...whatever *lol* You don't know that about the person i was responding to, either.  :Smile: 
And, i was specifically discussing the definition of the word domesticated, and it's application.

And it DOES matter how many generations of animal are bred in captivity...uhm...that is kind of the point. how many does it take to become domesticated...to show signs of domestication, etc. You and satomi are saying it takes too many, to have shown up already..AND that bps are NOT being selected for personality traits, that they are ONLY being selected for color. I am saying that i can PROVE otherwise, since I have two snakes from a breeder who has bred normals for 20 years, and i have two normals who are each from that breeder, who has stated that they were selected for their easy going personality and easy acceptance to captivity. I don't see how this is an argument at all *lol* I am clearly stating a fact. You can of course, choose to disagree, but since you cannot prove it, you cannot disprove it. You can concede to calling it a theory, that there are some bps out there that were selected for their "domesticated traits". 
I really think if you take a second to read, and reread this last paragraph...you will see what i am saying, and understand it.

Anyone who has studied science, not even biology specifically cannot disagree with this statement. There are questions/problems just like it on the SATs.
I will concede that I have perhaps not been as clear in my previous statements, to help you understand exactly what i'm saying. I think we agree on some things, but are not seeing it that way due to the nature of our discussion...ie: on a text forum.

For instance...

You said my point about watching the snakes during a live feed was taken. Great! But then you go on to say

 " I understand why you posted the pics. My point is that we have all seen these pics. We don't feed live because we just never thought about it. Its dishonest of you to put a picture of a BP nearly gutted by a rabbit in a thread where you are trying to make the point that feeding F/T is safer. It's simply not relevant in that it was hurt by a rabbit. Nearly no one would consider feeding a rabbit to their BP and if they did it would be a baby not capable of the damage you showed. By posing that picture you are saying that we are putting our snakes at that kind of risk without actually saying the words. That's just dishonest. The picture of the dehydrated starved snake is equally not relevant. Its an emotional plea. "


So, you say you understand. Then you for some reason go on to claim I am being dishonest in some way. That's simply not true. I closed the talk about why to feed live, quite a few posts ago. I said i had gathered reasons why people do it.
Then I posted, yes, an emotional plea, that if people are going to feed live, to watch their snakes. I don't see how this is dishonest. Please explain to me in detail how it is.
It is 100% honest. It is also, you are right, 100% emotional. BTW this thread is NOT about trying to get people to feed f/t over live. I have made that clear many times. lol

I simply asked why people do it...i wanted factual reasons.
I learned the reasons.
After learning the reasons, I simply stated that I disagree with the many statements that people feed, and then walk away from their animals.

Blah, we are going around and around here. It's not really a healthy debate when we start repeating ourselves over and over.

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## satomi325

I see that you're set in your ways Missy :Razz: 

I fully agree with Egapal's last post.
Domestication is altering of behavior from the wild counterpart. And by behavior, I don't mean looking for a water bowl. A wild snake can return to the same stream for water too. I mean an instinctual change from the natural primitive form. A survival instinct. Snakes are truly instinctive creatures, and never really lose this trait even after years in captivity. However, you can't really say that about other domestic animals. They loose many traits, both physically and behavior wise, from their wild ancestors. 

Is there a difference between wild cattle and dairy cows? Yes. They look and act different.
Is there a difference between a wolf and a bull dog? Yes. They look and act different.
Is there a difference between CBB BP and wild BP? No. They look the same and act the same, which is why many people can't tell the difference between a wild caught/bred and captive born/bred. I can't tell you how many Ghana balls Ben Siegel has, but they're up for auction weekly. So far to date, I haven't seen anybody say their Ghanas act any different from cbb bps. 


Sure, some breeders may say they're breeding for personality, but the majority of ball pythons have a naturally docile disposition... Even wild caught ones. So I guess we can say almost everybody is breeding for personality?? But realistically, most people get into BP breeding for their paint jobs. And breeding a calm dog doesn't mean the puppies will be calm either...You can meet a friendly wolf w/ friendly pups. That doesn't mean they're domesticated. They're still very wild and can survive and act as they do in nature.

Here's a pretty clear example:
I think you said you have a few BPs that will not strike at certain food because it's moving???(Or something along the lines)... Well, not all animals are survivors. Natural selection. Survival of the fittest. But that's only 2(?) out of the BP population. The vast majority will most likely survive if you leave them in Africa. So as a species, they're going to survive in the wild without human aide. You take a population of golden retrievers and leave them to fend for themselves, the majority are going to die because they don't know how to survive due to the alteration from their wild forms. As a species, they're probably not going to survive.... (they would have to revert to de-evolution back into the primitive form otherwise)

Some people say domestication is a form of evolution. The domestic form is derived from the wild form. The difference between cbb and wild BP isn't significant enough to be truly independent of each other. That is why snakes are not domesticated. 

 If you truly believe that snakes are domesticated, then I suppose I can't really change your mind. But I'm just stating basic biological evolutionary theory.

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## Homegrownscales

Ok I'll just state this for myself and I'm pretty sure any other person that feeds live. We know the risks associated with feeding live. Not a single person throws rats in and leaves for hours upon hours or walks away and that's the end of it. Feeding large amounts of animals is a process. Anyone whom is feeding that many knows what they are doing. You don't get that many snakes with out knowing what you are doing. The grotesque pictures of bps being eaten alive by rodents that you see,  is from a hungry dehydrated rat that in turn becomes the predator in a cage. That is from a day or more being left in a Cage or tub. No water no food. That doesn't happen in 20 min to an hour. Many people that feed large amounts of balls also prefer to feed smaller more frequent meals. I feed weanlings or just a tad bit larger than a weanling. This is a hell of alot different than feeding jumbo rats. Weanlings have no idea what going on yet. They are still clueless to the world. Yes when they are constricted they will try to bite that Is instinct. Being a smaller meal for a bp they don't last long. Prey doesn't last long in my bins on feeding day anyways. Many of us that do feed live in large amounts have sort of like a sensor in our brains. Yes we put the rat in, close the bin, move to the next. But as I'm on the next bin if I hear a squeal my "sensor" goes off and I open it real quick to make sure everything is good. If I need them, my hemostats are in my back pocket, I secure the rat, and i move back on. If I don't hear the squeal I know to check back on that bin, when I'm done putting rats in. I also do my feedings in groups. It's a 10 min process per group. Anyone whom hasn't eaten by then, doesn't. This by all means again, is a PROCESS. And perhaps if you knew what it was like to feed 10/30/40/100 balls you would understand. You asked for the reasons folks feed live. You got them. You didn't ask for our feeding practices.  
This doesn't make people that feed live lazy at all. Having that many animals you have to Weigh your options. Am I going to spend 4 hours or more, feeding, heating up rats over and over with the hair dryer, doing the zombie dance? Or am I going to spend an hour feeding bc i have to spend the other three hours cleaning bins.  Or spraying bins, filling water bowls. Etc. 
What choice would you make if you had 60 hungry snakes, worked a full time job, had to keep everyone clean, etc? Would you still go for the zombie dance? Even if it cut in to bin cleaning time, or job time, kids time etc... Or does it seem like a different situation then? 
I guess what I'm saying with all of this is everyone has their reasons for feeding how and what they do. A bit 
More comes into play than just being lazy or not lazy when you have a large collection. But I know for a fact that 99.9% of folks on this site that do feed live know what precautions to take. As I said before BOTH live and ft have their risks. Not either one is safer than the other if the person is uneducated about the risks associated with each. 


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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_Egapal_ (12-27-2011),_satomi325_ (12-24-2011)

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## satomi325

> Ok I'll just state this for myself and I'm pretty sure any other person that feeds live. We know the risks associated with feeding live. Not a single person throws rats in and leaves for hours upon hours or walks away and that's the end of it. Feeding large amounts of animals is a process. Anyone whom is feeding that many knows what they are doing. You don't get that many snakes with out knowing what you are doing. The grotesque pictures of bps being eaten alive by rodents that you see,  is from a hungry dehydrated rat that in turn becomes the predator in a cage. That is from a day or more being left in a Cage or tub. No water no food. That doesn't happen in 20 min to an hour. Many people that feed large amounts of balls also prefer to feed smaller more frequent meals. I feed weanlings or just a tad bit larger than a weanling. This is a hell of alot different than feeding jumbo rats. Weanlings have no idea what going on yet. They are still clueless to the world. Yes when they are constricted they will try to bite that Is instinct. Being a smaller meal for a bp they don't last long. Prey doesn't last long in my bins on feeding day anyways. Many of us that do feed live in large amounts have sort of like a sensor in our brains. Yes we put the rat in, close the bin, move to the next. But as I'm on the next bin if I hear a squeal my "sensor" goes off and I open it real quick to make sure everything is good. If I need them, my hemostats are in my back pocket, I secure the rat, and i move back on. If I don't hear the squeal I know to check back on that bin, when I'm done putting rats in. I also do my feedings in groups. It's a 10 min process per group. Anyone whom hasn't eaten by then, doesn't. This by all means again, is a PROCESS. And perhaps if you knew what it was like to feed 10/30/40/100 balls you would understand. You asked for the reasons folks feed live. You got them. You didn't ask for our feeding practices.  
> This doesn't make people that feed live lazy at all. Having that many animals you have to Weigh your options. Am I going to spend 4 hours or more, feeding, heating up rats over and over with the hair dryer, doing the zombie dance? Or am I going to spend an hour feeding bc i have to spend the other three hours cleaning bins.  Or spraying bins, filling water bowls. Etc. 
> What choice would you make if you had 60 hungry snakes, worked a full time job, had to keep everyone clean, etc? Would you still go for the zombie dance? Even if it cut in to bin cleaning time, or job time, kids time etc... Or does it seem like a different situation then? 
> I guess what I'm saying with all of this is everyone has their reasons for feeding how and what they do. A bit 
> More comes into play than just being lazy or not lazy when you have a large collection. But I know for a fact that 99.9% of folks on this site that do feed live know what precautions to take. As I said before BOTH live and ft have their risks. Not either one is safer than the other if the person is uneducated about the risks associated with each. 
> 
> 
> Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com


Well said.

I agree w/ everything stated above.
And for the record, I too feed weanlings who are practically helpless. So no damage done to the snakes. (And not sure why someone would feed a rabbit to a BP.....that's trouble ready to happen)

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## Iancusp

So should I.feed live or f-t

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## Highline Reptiles South

I feed live because :

a) I breed my own rats
b) BPs more readily take to live
c) It seems silly to prekill when my BPs prefer live
d) Never have had a serious injury

Now, I do watch them feed with a pair of hemostats and intervene if i have to. I figure in the wild they take the odd bite or two and i care for any minor bite in captivity..

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## Egapal

I am going to stick to the key points.




> And it DOES matter how many generations of animal are bred in captivity...uhm...that is kind of the point. how many does it take to become domesticated...to show signs of domestication, etc. You and satomi are saying it takes too many, to have shown up already..AND that bps are NOT being selected for personality traits, that they are ONLY being selected for color. I am saying that i can PROVE otherwise, since I have two snakes from a breeder who has bred normals for 20 years, and i have two normals who are each from that breeder, who has stated that they were selected for their easy going personality and easy acceptance to captivity. I don't see how this is an argument at all *lol* I am clearly stating a fact. You can of course, choose to disagree, but since you cannot prove it, you cannot disprove it. You can concede to calling it a theory, that there are some bps out there that were selected for their "domesticated traits".
> 
> I really think if you take a second to read, and reread this last paragraph...you will see what i am saying, and understand it.


You do not understand domestication. Ok you have two snakes from someone who has been breeding normals for 20 years. Lets assume the person started with 100 adult normal females (they probably started with 1). Lets further assume that  they chose the tamest 10% to breed, that's called selecting for a trait (Real domestication studies have been done starting with 10s of thousands of animals and only breeding the top 1%). Lets assume that they were all paired with the tamest male they could find, they all took, and all produced an average of 10 eggs 50/50 male and female.(odds of this happening are super low) So 2 years later lets assume all 50 females are old enough to breed and again they choose the tamest 10 to breed and repeat with the same results. 20 years later you have at best 10 generations. That's enough to start to see changes assuming your breeder was as good as the Russians who worked with the foxes. In reality you probably got 7 generations or less and they probably started with a hand full of snakes which means they didn't do a drastic enough selection process to see change. Furthermore you are demonstrating that you don't know what an argument, fact, or theory are. It may be a fact that the people who sold you the snakes said they were from a long line of domestication efforts but you certainly haven't proven that is the case. How many animals did they start with? What percentage did they breed.  What percentage of those were selected to breed. Did they take precautions to avoid inbreeding. Even if they did all of this they would still have to demonstrate that the snakes they have breed are in some way different from wild snakes. You haven't proven anything. You have said some stuff. A theory is an explanation of why the facts are what they are. You haven't presented a theory. You have presented an understanding of what domestication is that differs widely from the excepted definition. Once again there is much more to domestication than you have read so far.




> Anyone who has studied science, not even biology specifically cannot disagree with this statement. There are questions/problems just like it on the SATs.
> I will concede that I have perhaps not been as clear in my previous statements, to help you understand exactly what i'm saying. I think we agree on some things, but are not seeing it that way due to the nature of our discussion...ie: on a text forum.
> 
> For instance...
> 
> You said my point about watching the snakes during a live feed was taken. Great! But then you go on to say
> 
>  " I understand why you posted the pics. My point is that we have all seen these pics. We don't feed live because we just never thought about it. Its dishonest of you to put a picture of a BP nearly gutted by a rabbit in a thread where you are trying to make the point that feeding F/T is safer. It's simply not relevant in that it was hurt by a rabbit. Nearly no one would consider feeding a rabbit to their BP and if they did it would be a baby not capable of the damage you showed. By posing that picture you are saying that we are putting our snakes at that kind of risk without actually saying the words. That's just dishonest. The picture of the dehydrated starved snake is equally not relevant. Its an emotional plea. "
> 
> ...


Its dishonest because your example does not come even close to the norm. Even the people on this forum who don't watch their snakes while they are feeding live don't feed their BP RABBITS.

You are trying to make a point about what we all do, and to make that point you show a snake that was injured from something that non of us do. That's what makes it dishonest.

The second picture is from a snake that kinda has a small scar. That doesn't even make a point. I am not sure why you showed that.




> It is 100% honest. It is also, you are right, 100% emotional. BTW this thread is NOT about trying to get people to feed f/t over live. I have made that clear many times. lol
> 
> I simply asked why people do it...i wanted factual reasons.
> I learned the reasons.
> After learning the reasons, I simply stated that I disagree with the many statements that people feed, and then walk away from their animals.
> 
> Blah, we are going around and around here. It's not really a healthy debate when we start repeating ourselves over and over.


I read the whole thread. There might have been one person who said they fed live and walked away. You don't know what that person was feeding. If the person was feeding rat fuzzies there is no danger in walking away and not watching. This is my whole point. Who are you talking too. You appear to be trying to make a point about feeding live vs f/t. All of your actions indicated that. If you weren't I would expect you to ask questions about some of the great points people have made. Instead you fixate on the feeding unattended and make an emotional plea about that. What I am saying is that I have been on this forum a while and the veterans will all tell you not to feed live unattended. I say this again because you don't seam to acknowledge any points that anyone has made.

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Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011),_Redneck_Crow_ (12-27-2011),_satomi325_ (12-28-2011),_zeion97_ (12-28-2011)

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## drama x

Wow alot of arguments in here lol

anyways...

I personally feed my snakes f/t, its just more convient for me that way. I stock up on f/t at reptile expos for really cheap and im set. Its better than keeping stinky mice and rats around the house lol  :Razz: 


and for the record i agree with missy  :Good Job:

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## slackerz

when i read the first post,i thought the thread starter honestly want to hear about other people's opinion about feeding live food..but after 8 pages,its quite disgusting to see his response towards others..he try to correct everyone like he's the only one has the right opinion even some people here already gave some fact..im sorry if i offended you.

For me,feeding live has pros and cons..but i still prefer live one..feeding live means fresh with protein,vitamins and nutrient..maybe some people disagree with my statement,but as far as i do nutritional/protein/antioxidant test to the sample in the lab,its quite difficult to get good result of nutrient content from sample which frozen for quite long time.that is why we always do it on fresh sample..It will be even worst if the food refreeze so many times like you did and i think it is really selfish behavior.if you ever taste the raw meat,or raw fish,its really different between fresh and frozen..It is different not because nothing change,but a lot of thing already changed..And dont forget,the live food not always carrying bad germs like you said,but it always bring good bacteria for BP's digestive system..maybe for BP,we didnt see much different between feeding live and fresh(i can see it), but for some snake,feeding live means doesn't have much problem with digestion process.if my corn always regurgitate,one of the solution is give live feeder.

i feed my snake both pre kill and lives..and for lives one,i dont have any problem after so many years..the worst one only scratch..I believe anyone here who feed them live know the risk and know how to overcome it..and I DID NOT FEED THEM RABBIT or inappropriate size of food..

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## Tzeentch

I feed live because F/T is "boring"

I have my tweezers ready to prevent bites.

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## Jay_Bunny

I feed live and f/t to my snakes. I've been keeping snakes now for 5 years. I keep over 30 snakes right now and have plans to expand my collection. 

Firstly, I feed the majority of my snakes f/t. This is out of convienence only. I would much prefer to feed live, but if I were to feed live I would want to breed my own (because the sources of live rodents around are not that great...parasites...ill rodents...malnourished) and I simply do not have the room to do so. Many of my snakes have no problem switching from live to f/t from one feeding to the next. They simply do not care. However, I do have a few snakes that simply refuse f/t. They will starve themselves for months until they get a live prey item. Of course, I have no problem feeding live, so this is not a problem for me. 

When I feed live, I am very careful with each feeding. I supervise each and every live feeding, tongs in hand, ready to intervene should the snake strike wrong. If the snake does not strike within a few minutes, I pull the rodent and leave the snake for the next feeding day. 

In my 5 years of keeping snakes I have only one snake that has ever become injured. It was a very small bite wound on my snow corn snake from a live mouse. Within a few sheds you wouldn't even know she'd ever been bitten and it certainly has not scared her into not eating. She's an eating machine and will take down any prey item you offer, live or dead. 

Also, I NEVER stun a rodent. I find this to be a cruel practice. It can also be dangerous to your snake. If you stun a prey item and it ends up coming to while in a tub with your snake, the prey item will more than likely be very frightened and more aggressive. You would be too if someone knocked you senseless. I used to stun mice for my snakes when they were babies. That was no problem. The first time I ever tried to stun a rat, I almost cried. The poor thing went into seizures. I will never again stun an animal. Either kill it and offer it p/k, buy f/t, or feed live. There is NO reason you should have to stun a prey item.

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## pigfat

I feed live. 
1.) I cant get mine to take f/t.
2.) Its easier for me to go by the store and buy mice than having to thaw out frozen rats, warm them up, and dangle them around for my snakes to eat them.
3.) You hear it with nutritionists all the time that frozen foods loose a lot of their nutrients, its probably the same with mice right?


I've been stabbed in the roof of my mouth so many times from chips and what not, but it doesnt scare me away from eating them lol. I also closely supervise feeding time with pliars in hand ready to help. I wait untill the snake is completely done strangling and begins to eat before I put the lid back on.

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## Redneck_Crow

Sometimes if my pythons are on a self-imposed fast they will take live when they won't take f/t.

As an example-- I have a 1500gm pastel yb.  I am not breeding Marilyn this season because she is a late '10 and even though she is large enough to breed and doing all of the big-girl things like fasting and bowl wrapping I do not want to breed her this young.  Probably next  year.

I tried for the last couple of weeks to get her to eat f//t, which she usually will.  I have a very happy possum because she has been refusing.  Today she refused a third time.  I offered her a live rat and she took it within seconds.

Now, it wouldn't kill Marilyn not to eat for another month or so, but I want her to eat.  I want her to be a good size and weight for next fall when I do allow her to breed.  So she's getting live until she accepts f/t.  I'm not worried about her getting bitten by a rat either.  Marilyn is quite the efficient ratter.  They seldom get out more than one squeal when she nabs them.

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## nikitajane25

Ok I'm comin in at the butt end of this snake. I only read the first and last page of the thread and haven't seen this argument at all. It is their nature. In the wild snakes hunt and kill and yes, they can get hurt in the process, but they still go on. In my opinion, when keeping any exotic animal, it is the owners responsibility to make their habitat as close to natural as possible, including their feed. Some people might say "well that's why animals bite and attack" and blah blah blah. But its their nature! Why do you like snakes? For me its because they're facinating animals by nature, so why try to ruin that!? I am not opposed to frozen thawed if my snakes would take it I would get it. Most concern is the rat/mouse biting. Like I said it hapens in the wild and they do ok. But we can take em to a vet if a bite or scratch is too serious. If your snake takes f/t more power t you that's great I'm not opposed to that. But if your slithery friend prefers a like rat then givethem that. Its the thrill of thehunt!! Let nature take its course, let them do what comes naturally to them.  :Good Job:

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## Jay_Bunny

On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....

My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.

My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food. 

If done responsibly, live can be no more dangerous than feeding f/t. One could argue that nutrient levels can be affected by the freezing process. Some argue that taurine deteriorates after a while. F/T that you buy could have been spoiled and simply re-frozen and you end up feeding a spoiled prey item. (I've bought one of those. Thawed it out and it smelled like it had been decomposing for quite a while before it was re-frozen) I do not ever recommend re-freezing something that has been completely thawed out. If it is not completely thawed then re-freezing is okay, but never when its already thawed. I don't do that with my ferrets and I don't do that with my snakes. Whole prey is generally okay to be left out for 12 hours or so without spoilage. Sometimes I will pull my rats to thaw during the day while I'm working and feed when I get home. I never have a problem, but once I know it is fully thawed, I never leave it for more than a few hours before pulling it out of a tub and discarding it.

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_Egapal_ (12-27-2011),Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011)

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## Crazy4Herps

> On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....
> 
> My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.
> 
> My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food. 
> 
> If done responsibly, live can be no more dangerous than feeding f/t. One could argue that nutrient levels can be affected by the freezing process. Some argue that taurine deteriorates after a while. F/T that you buy could have been spoiled and simply re-frozen and you end up feeding a spoiled prey item. (I've bought one of those. Thawed it out and it smelled like it had been decomposing for quite a while before it was re-frozen) I do not ever recommend re-freezing something that has been completely thawed out. If it is not completely thawed then re-freezing is okay, but never when its already thawed. I don't do that with my ferrets and I don't do that with my snakes. Whole prey is generally okay to be left out for 12 hours or so without spoilage. Sometimes I will pull my rats to thaw during the day while I'm working and feed when I get home. I never have a problem, but once I know it is fully thawed, I never leave it for more than a few hours before pulling it out of a tub and discarding it.


You make an excellent point, but I just wanted to point out that ball pythons are not domesticated.

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Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011)

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## sho220

The whole "f/t vs live" argument is the most over-analyzed bp subject ever...feed them what they'll eat and what is convenient for you...

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_Crazy4Herps_ (12-29-2011),_Jay_Bunny_ (12-28-2011),_Redneck_Crow_ (12-28-2011)

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## rabernet

> ANYway...the main thing i had wanted to comment on was rabernet, who said "I feed live to all my ball pythons except my albino, and that's only because I don't like seeing any blemishes on him, like scratches from a kicking rodent. It doesn't hurt them, their scales are designed and do protect them."
> 
> I'll just be blunt here and ask why you think it's okay that your other snakes are allowed blemishes, or scratches, or worse...but your favorite isn't. That is like admitting that yes, they DO get hurt from live food...but you have one that is more worthy of not getting hurt.
> Just weird.


I missed this earlier, but I'll just be blunt here and say that the snakes with melanin do NOT have blemishes, because the melanin doesn't show them. You're making an assumption that the albino is my favorite animal in my collection, and he's not. 

Blemishes are not injuries. I get scratched all the time in my daily life and things that I do, but I do not consider minor scratches to be injuries, nor life threatening. In fact, I barely notice them - they are simply cosmetic. I am feeding f/t to that particular snake for cosmetic reasons only - not for safety, or because he's a favored snake in any way. 

You chose to pick one part of my post out, without acknowledging the extremely low risk of injury in my collection from feeding live. Using my own, real life experiences, with over 15K live feedings, I have not ONCE had any rodent maim or scar a single snake in my collection. 

Feed F/T if that's what you prefer, but do NOT sit in judgement of those who prefer feeding live prey to their collections, for whatever their reason may be. In fact, no one owes you any explanation as to why they came to the choice that they cam to. 

Your horse appears to be pretty high and your sword rather mighty.

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_Evenstar_ (12-28-2011),_heathers*bps_ (01-08-2012),Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011),_zeion97_ (12-28-2011)

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## rabernet

> I don't know why you wouldn't drink milk past the SELL date, if it is still good. If it's expired, it's not necessarily bad. If it GOES bad throw it it...humans also do not have the ability to fight off bacteria from "bad" food...where as ball pythons can eat food that has been dead for a long time, not refrigerated, and by our standards, spoiled. *That is just a fact*.


Just because you type something, doesn't make it a fact. Please cite your sources that ball pythons can safely eat food that has been dead for a long time, that we would define as spoiled. For that matter, you also said that ball pythons scavenge dead food. Can you please cite that source as well?

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_Crazy4Herps_ (12-29-2011),_Evenstar_ (12-28-2011),_Jay_Bunny_ (12-28-2011),Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011),_satomi325_ (12-28-2011),_zeion97_ (12-28-2011)

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## slackerz

maybe everyone should write "that is just a fact" at the end of the post to make it a fact.

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## Jay_Bunny

> You make an excellent point, but I just wanted to point out that ball pythons are not domesticated.


Yes, I am aware that ball pythons (as well as every other reptile species) are not domesticated by any means.

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## satomi325

> On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....
> 
> My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.
> 
> My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food. 
> 
> .


I applaud you! Especially with the ferrets since they're obligate carnivores. I feed mine whole prey as well (adult mice and weanling rats). It's so much more healthier for them than all that commercial corn + 40% protein kibble nonsense....

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Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011)

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## Skiploder

I see people starting to beat the old "fresh is more nutritious than frozen" drum.  Well, like most internet regurge material, it's part true, part false.

It depends on many, many variables, including the span of time between death and freezing and more importantly, which nutrients are being discussed.

Some nutrients are affected, some are minimally affected and some are not affected at all.  In fruits and vegetables, the nutrients losses of vitamin C begin immediately after picking the produce item and actually are further lessened by the freezing process.

Now I know some people confuse their apples and oranges, but this is an easy one.  Meat is not an apple nor an orange.  It is meat, and meat does not lose nutrients through proper quick freezing like produce does and whole prey items lose even less than butchered cuts of meat that have longer processing times and lose juices containing nutrients during butchering.

In fact, meat, fish and poultry barely lose any nutrients at all, as proteins and Vitamins A and D are unaffected by the freezing process.  There are losses - that much is true - but they are trivial and not worthy of any concern on the part of the keeper.

The losses incurred in frozen meat mainly take place when the meat is thawed, and juices are exuded containing the soluble proteins, vitamins and minerals. Again, whole items lose a lot less of these soluble proteins as they are leaked mainly into the body cavity.  The amount of nutrient loss is dependent on the length of time of aging (time between death and freezing), whether frozen as a carcass or meat cuts, conditions of freezing and speed of thawing; it varies between 1% and 10% of the weight of the meat and is usually about 5% - and that is measured on butchered cuts of meat with longer processing times and inherently greater risk of soluble protein loss.

Bottom line - the loss that occurs during thawing is less than 5% of the nutrient content.  Not a cogent reason alone to pick live over f/t.

I feed both.  I don't breed rodents any more.  95% of my animals are on f/t but I have some that will only eat live.  

Only a dimwit of the highest order would sit in judgment of someone who feeds live prey responsibly.

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_Crazy4Herps_ (12-29-2011),_Don_ (12-29-2011),_Evenstar_ (12-28-2011),Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011),_purplemuffin_ (12-28-2011),_Redneck_Crow_ (12-29-2011),_satomi325_ (12-28-2011),_slackerz_ (12-28-2011),_zeion97_ (12-28-2011)

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## Jessica Loesch

> I feed live. 
> 1.) I cant get mine to take f/t.
> 2.) Its easier for me to go by the store and buy mice than having to thaw out frozen rats, warm them up, and dangle them around for my snakes to eat them.
> 3.) You hear it with nutritionists all the time that frozen foods loose a lot of their nutrients, its probably the same with mice right?
> 
> 
> I've been stabbed in the roof of my mouth so many times from chips and what not, but it doesnt scare me away from eating them lol. I also closely supervise feeding time with pliars in hand ready to help. I wait untill the snake is completely done strangling and begins to eat before I put the lid back on.


 Skiploder, as always, provided a very informative post that I think answered this question, 
but remember, a nutritionist is someone who can go out and certify themselves and may not be very educated.  A registered dietitian is someone who has had at least a bachelors and often masters degree, along with a dietetic internship, and they must get continuing education credits.  THIS is the nutrition professional you want to listen to  :Wink:   I will be one soon.

I feed live, nothing wrong with it.  I think there are some very informative posts already so I will not repeat why I do so.

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## zeion97

> On another note on the whole "ball python is domesticated and not wild anymore, therefore we should feed it f/t" argument.....
> 
> My dog is technically domesticated. When I begin breeding feeder animals (mice, rats, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rabbits, etc) I intend on putting him on a whole prey diet and yes, I will give him the opportunity to take down live prey if he has a high prey drive. My cats will be fed the same way and they are domesticated.
> 
> My ferrets already eat live prey. Twitch, my smallest, is my best hunter. Now, because of the size of a ferret, you would not allow them to take down a rat. It's nearly half their size. But mice are fair game and a favorite of my ferrets. They are a domesticated species, however even they get live food. 
> 
> If done responsibly, live can be no more dangerous than feeding f/t. One could argue that nutrient levels can be affected by the freezing process. Some argue that taurine deteriorates after a while. F/T that you buy could have been spoiled and simply re-frozen and you end up feeding a spoiled prey item. (I've bought one of those. Thawed it out and it smelled like it had been decomposing for quite a while before it was re-frozen) I do not ever recommend re-freezing something that has been completely thawed out. If it is not completely thawed then re-freezing is okay, but never when its already thawed. I don't do that with my ferrets and I don't do that with my snakes. Whole prey is generally okay to be left out for 12 hours or so without spoilage. Sometimes I will pull my rats to thaw during the day while I'm working and feed when I get home. I never have a problem, but once I know it is fully thawed, I never leave it for more than a few hours before pulling it out of a tub and discarding it.



I like the fact you give your ferrets live prey. Not many people do this. But I see one flaw in what you said.
I personally believe no animal can be domesticated. Not only did We humans define this definition, but in part there still animals... they have all the instincts wild animals do. This is my opinion, I know we all have cat dogs and even rats that listen and such BUT!! They can still turn on a dime. Don't tear into me about this, this is my opinion.. 

I will admit I didn't read the entire thread, but from skimming It send the OP dis regards our opinions. If not I apologize.

I only own five snakes. 4 eat only live And 1 will eat F/T. I am trying to switch them over but they just wont. So I don't see a reason to feed 1 snakes F/T and the other 4 live, so currently they all get live and i try to occasionally slip in a F/T to no avail. This is just the way it works for me. I personally wish mine would eat F/T

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## WingedWolfPsion

Right, what Skiploder said.  The nutritional benefit of live over FT is only slight.  (However, ball pythons do get vitamin C, and all other nutrients, from their prey--the liver contains the vitamin C).  I'm not sure whether B. Barczyk has completed his feeding trials that he introduced on Snakebytes, where he had one group of hatchlings eating prey dusted with a multivitamin, but I am curious about the results of that.
I have no feeling that my animals aren't getting good nutrition eating FT.

Keep in mind that if you feed cats in particular on a whole prey diet, you should NOT use frozen prey for them...or, if you do, you will NEED to add a thiamine supplement.  I'm not sure whether that applies to ferrets or dogs.

It's certainly occurred to me that unused FT rodents could become dog snacks, but we don't currently have a dog, lol.

As for domestication...there is a LOT of confusion about what it actually is.  We learned a tremendous amount about domestication from the fox farm experiments in Russia, and I would encourage anyone interested in it to look into them.

Essentially, domestication has a wide-ranging influence over an animal's endocrine system, personality, and even appearance.  It does not necessarily have any effects on their instincts.  Domesticated animals are docile, friendly or neutral towards human beings, and tend to have a variable appearance with many mutations of form, color, and pattern.  (The fox farm foxes developed floppy ears, varied tail lengths, piebald coats, and more).

The sole selection process that caused all of these changes was merely selection for animals that did not show a fear or aggression response toward human beings.  That's all.

In reptile species where selection for temperament has begun, the domestication process has also begun--corn snakes and leopard geckos are probably furthest along at this point, with relatively little wild blood being introduced (particularly in leopard geckos).
I would imagine that bearded dragons are also well on their way, particularly when one considers that no wild blood can be introduced into their current gene pools in the US and Europe.

All we need to do, to begin the domestication process in ball pythons, is start selecting for temperament, and stop introducing wild-origin snakes to our breeding programs.

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Jessica Loesch (12-28-2011)

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## purplemuffin

I actually feel like it may be the animals who are no longer allowed to be wild caught (Australian animals for those of us here, etc.) who would end up more 'domesticated' if anything. 


I agree with Skiploader on the nutrient aspect of meat. While I know this isn't a fair comparison because we humans do eat more than just meat to balance our diet, I don't know many people who are concerned about eating meat that was frozen, most of us get our meat in the store freezers even. I remember someone actually using the orange reference in regards to freezing rodents, to which I wondered, since when are rodents fruit?  :Surprised:  

This has all been a fun and enlightening discussion, even if things tend to get a little heated. It's always good to know as much as we possibly can in order to constantly improve our keeping methods.  :Smile:

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## nikitajane25

Alright let me ask you guys this (it may not make sense to some but hopefully others will see where I'm going with this). Would you rather buy frozen produce or fresh produce? And why?

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## OhhWatALoser

> I'm not sure whether B. Barczyk has completed his feeding trials that he introduced on Snakebytes, where he had one group of hatchlings eating prey dusted with a multivitamin, but I am curious about the results of that.


http://youtu.be/kyXZN25XOZo about 2 minutes in

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_WingedWolfPsion_ (12-29-2011)

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## sho220

> Alright let me ask you guys this (it may not make sense to some but hopefully others will see where I'm going with this). Would you rather buy frozen produce or fresh produce? And why?


I think you missed the part about an apple not being made of meat...or maybe it was the part about ball pythons not eating oranges... :Confused: 

Let the dead horse beating continue... :Very Happy:

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## nikitajane25

Ok what about fishing? Yes they freeze some but don't they prefer to eat their catch fresh? Or hunters? Don't they eat the meat as fresh as possible. Or farmers? They drink the milk from the cows or eat the eggs straight from the chicken. They kill their own cattle, chickens, pigs, turkeys, ect. And they eat it fresh (like I said yes they freeze some) but why do they do this? From my understanding its because it tastes better, it has more flavor, its fresh!

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## OhhWatALoser

> I think you missed the part about an apple not being made of meat...or maybe it was the part about ball pythons not eating oranges...
> 
> Let the dead horse beating continue...


how many posts do I need to go back to understand where the this conversation came from? Wine tastes better as it ages, do I get to beat on the horse now?

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## sho220

> how many posts do I need to go back to understand where the this conversation came from? Wine tastes better as it ages, do I get to beat on the horse now?


All you need to know is that BP's enjoy the taste of fresh produce vice frozen...and they prefer their water with a splash of lemon...

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## sho220

> Ok what about fishing?


With the lack of thumbs, or fingers for that matter, there's no way a BP could operate a fishing reel...so this point is moot... :Very Happy:

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## nikitajane25

-__- I'm making the point that if we prefer our food fresh why feed our animals something they might not like and isn't natural to them just cause its cheaper or more convenient to us? Don't give them any less then you yourself would prefer.

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## Skiploder

> -__- I'm making the point that if we prefer our food fresh why feed our animals something they might not like and isn't natural to them just cause its cheaper or more convenient to us? Don't give them any less then you yourself would prefer.



Do ball pythons have taste buds?

If so, what are they used for?

After you've done the research and answered these two questions, ask yourself this:

Does fresh really matter to a ball python?  If so, as opposed to what?

Then, will a ball python be able to discern the difference  - with it's "palate" - between a live prey item and a f/t one sufficiently heated up?

Once you've done that research, we will then have something interesting to discuss.  Until then, we don't.

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## Jessica Loesch

> Alright let me ask you guys this (it may not make sense to some but hopefully others will see where I'm going with this). Would you rather buy frozen produce or fresh produce? And why?


Frozen produce is the next best alternative, and can be better if you are looking to store something for longer.  The nutrient content depletion is minimal when you compare it to cooking.

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## wolfy-hound

Actually frozen vegetables is better to buy than fresh if you're buying in a store. Frozen is frozen as it's picked, while "fresh" has been picked, stored in boxes, transported to a central location, transported to the store, set out on display and then at whichever point you pick it up and take it home.

As far as whether a snake cares if it's prey was frozen and reheated to sufficiently warm to mimic "blood heat", I doubt it can tell or cares. There's a reason we do the zombie rat dance.... it's because pythons are usually fairly easy to fool.

The debate rages... frozen vs live... and it will continue to be debated ad nauseum with folks on either side who espouse ONLY their way.  The rest of us in the middle watch with popcorn and shrug while saying "If it works for you..."

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Rogue628 (12-28-2011),_zeion97_ (12-29-2011)

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## nikitajane25

I don't know if ball pythons have taste buds but does that necisarily mean they can't taste? They have other senses, like their amazing sent. When you have a cold can you taste? In my opinion that is a way for them to taste. Obviously they can tell the difference because there are some balls who simply refuse f/t. Now I'm not saying I'm opposed to f/t, I just prefer live because its what's NATURAL to them. But I can argue this either way. I actually convinced my brother to feeding his florida king f/t and he is extremely hard headed and was adiment about sticking to live.

Wolfyhound, as far as your take on frozen vs fresh produce I can argue that all day ad point out everything wrong about your statement but this is a debate on f/t v live prey. (However I am for using produce as an example)

My main point. I am for live for the fact that its more natural. Plain and simple. But I am also for f/t to avoid any physical stress on the animals. In my opinion, I try f/t if they take it great! If not I'm not gunna force it. This is a debate that's been going on for years and will continue for years.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## WingedWolfPsion

Based on those results, I am going to begin using a multivitamin powder on all prey offered to my ball pythons, whether live, pk, or ft.  A light dusting of vitamin powder isn't terribly expensive, and seems worth it to ensure no minor deficiencies in nutrients will occur.  If freezing does destroy some vitamins, replacing them with a bit of dust is simple.  With some preliminary evidence that it helps, and the fact that it does no harm...why not?

I'm not sure that ball pythons taste their food, but they most definitely smell it, and anyone who has tried to switch a stubborn animal from live to FT can attest that they do indeed detect a significant difference between Live/PK and FT.

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_satomi325_ (12-29-2011)

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## zeion97

> Based on those results, I am going to begin using a multivitamin powder on all prey offered to my ball pythons, whether live, pk, or ft.  A light dusting of vitamin powder isn't terribly expensive, and seems worth it to ensure no minor deficiencies in nutrients will occur.  If freezing does destroy some vitamins, replacing them with a bit of dust is simple.  With some preliminary evidence that it helps, and the fact that it does no harm...why not?
> 
> I'm not sure that ball pythons taste their food, but they most definitely smell it, and anyone who has tried to switch a stubborn animal from live to FT can attest that they do indeed detect a significant difference between Live/PK and FT.


They may.. we'll never know though Because we're not BP's.  :Wink:  the truth is whether someone chooses to use live or frozen, that is there choice. We should never try to force someone to change.

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## WingedWolfPsion

I disagree--our not being ball pythons does not mean we cannot observe behavior and make logical inferences.  If a ball python willingly accepts PK prey, and refuses heated FT, obviously it detects a difference between them.  That is something we know, and we do not have to be ball pythons to know it.

Which they prefer is more subjective.  Based on behavior, most ball pythons prefer PK to FT, but some prefer FT to PK.  :Smile:

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## satomi325

> Keep in mind that if you feed cats in particular on a whole prey diet, you should NOT use frozen prey for them...or, if you do, you will NEED to add a thiamine supplement.  I'm not sure whether that applies to ferrets or dogs.


I find that most people feed fresh or cooked meat to their cats, dogs, and ferrets anyway so hopefully many don't have that problem. I feed my ferrets live prey for the same reasons I feed my snakes live. Also the ferrets enjoy taking down prey and its good enrichment. They always seem so excited or eager when they see a mouse or rat. Like a dog excited for a piece of bacon..... It is possible for ferrets to get a thiamine deficiency, which can lead to paralysis. And since dogs are not obligate carnivores like cats and ferrets, I don't think they need it as bad. However, dogs can get deficiencies as well.

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## Jessica Loesch

> Actually frozen vegetables is better to buy than fresh if you're buying in a store. Frozen is frozen as it's picked, while "fresh" has been picked, stored in boxes, transported to a central location, transported to the store, set out on display and then at whichever point you pick it up and take it home.
> 
> As far as whether a snake cares if it's prey was frozen and reheated to sufficiently warm to mimic "blood heat", I doubt it can tell or cares. There's a reason we do the zombie rat dance.... it's because pythons are usually fairly easy to fool.
> 
> The debate rages... frozen vs live... and it will continue to be debated ad nauseum with folks on either side who espouse ONLY their way.  The rest of us in the middle watch with popcorn and shrug while saying "If it works for you..."


This is very true.  When I say frozen is next best, I of course was onlythinking about fresh picked.  I always neglect to remember the quality of the produce on the shelf.  Good catch.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Cooking also destroys thiamine, so those who feed fresh but cooked food to their cats (and presumeably, ferrets) should add a thiamine supplement to it after cooking.
Thiamine is added to commercial cat foods.
Some fresh fish is also off limits, as is frozen fish, due to the thiaminase content (enzyme that destroys thiamine).

As has been pointed out, humans DO eat fruit, so we don't have to get all of our nutrients from meat.  If we did, we would have to eat some of it fresh and raw, the way the Inuit and Sami peoples did.

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## OhhWatALoser

I love reading this thread while eating a frozen pizza and my god does it taste good

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_Crazy4Herps_ (01-08-2012),_Zombie_ (01-08-2012)

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## satomi325

> Cooking also destroys thiamine, so those who feed fresh but cooked food to their cats (and presumeably, ferrets) should add a thiamine supplement to it after cooking.
> Thiamine is added to commercial cat foods.
> Some fresh fish is also off limits, as is frozen fish, due to the thiaminase content (enzyme that destroys thiamine).


I totally agree with you. That's exactly how ferrets get a thiamine deficiency. From fish meal in low quality kibble. I hear eggs do the same.

Good thing I feed live!  :Dancin' Banana:

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## karmak

I feed FT to my corn. Cause he was raised that way from the breeder i got em from. He doesnt constrict. Just eats it. Never had a problem.

Now my ball, she doesnt take FT. No matter what. So i feed live. Id rather her eat than her starve. If i could id probally feed Ft. Cause its gonna be hard to find a rat breeder. And its cheaper. But i watch her well, an make sure the mice are healthy so i dont worrie too much about it.

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## RobNJ

> Not only can that be proven by the fact that my snakes just aren't sick, but freezing DOES kill bacteria that would make them sick. Fact.


That is only a fact if you are freezing at proper temperatures, and your average home freezer does not achieve those temperatures. And your insistence that thawing and refreezing can be done as often as one would like is highly misguided...hypothetically speaking, I suppose it can be done, but there is such a microscopic margin for error when it comes to time and temperature, that refreezing safely in one's own home is almost impossible. Sorry for the tangent, but I've been working with food long enough to know that misguided assumptions lead to horrendously poor food handling and potentially sick people(or animals).

Anyway, I feed live for a few reasons. It's convenient, rather inexpensive as I breed my own feeders- with no waste, as I wouldn't refreeze thawed/warmed up rats, and I truly believe that the freshest food item is the healthiest. I give my snakes 10 minutes to feed, if they don't eat, they wait until next week.

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_zeion97_ (01-08-2012)

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## SpencerShanks

This thread is going in so many different directions I don't even know what to say.

First, my snake doesn't eat fruits or vegetables.

Second, my snake has never been fishing.

Third, I have no idea if he has taste buds. I don't see why he couldn't. But I always thought that snakes  used their tongues to smell using their Jacobson's organ. Pretty sure that's what it's called.

Fourth, as it's been said, just throwing a mouse into any freezer doesn't necessarily kill all the bacteria found on it. I'd prefer once-cooked meat as opposed to cooked, frozen, then cooked again. But then again, we never cook the mouse, we just heat it up to thaw it.

And finally, on the main topic of this thread, my snake eats F/T. He's my only snake, so it's easier to buy a box of frozen rodents once a month instead of going a bit farther weekly to buy live. I don't even know what the going rate is for feeders at my local exotic pets store. 
However, when my collection expands (if it ever does) I'll more than likely breed my own rats. When I just have a few, I'll order them in bulk. Once I exceed 10 or so I'll likely start the breeding.
So I could go either way. Keep a close eye on live feedings, and you'll generally be fine. You can stop anything before it gets too bad. I'm not sure if snakes "enjoy" hunting, if they get any kind of rush from it, or if it's better/worse for them. What's been said about thiamine being lost from freezing makes sense, but it doesn't seem to have much of a negative impact on the snakes.
The part I hate most about live feedings is the sound of a dying animal. I cringe a little whenever I hear a rat being fed to a snake. But hey, circle of life, amirite?

 :Popcorn:  Now I'll sit back and enjoy watching. This is almost like reading a thread of Xbox 360 or PS3 haha.

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## sho220

> I'd prefer once-cooked meat as opposed to cooked, frozen, then cooked again.


Meat loaf...it's a scientific fact that it's better the second time around.  :Very Happy:

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_Zombie_ (01-08-2012)

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## karmak

> Meat loaf...it's a scientific fact that it's better the second time around.


This is true  :Razz:  meat loat sandwhich. haha

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## WingedWolfPsion

No, freezing does NOT kill bacteria.  I can't imagine where folks got the idea that it does.  Freezing simply puts bacteria into hibernation, and they stop growing and reproducing...well, most bacteria stop.  Not all.  There is a REASON why you can't keep meat in your freezer forever, and safely eat it.  For your home freezer, after 6 months, it's time to throw it away.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/128887818.html
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../mole00219.htm
http://www.eatingwell.com/healthy_co...g_foods?page=4

Every time you warm up a rodent, the bacteria in it begin to multiply.  Since you can only safely leave raw meat for 3 hours before it's dangerous, that time rapidly adds up.  You don't know exactly how long the rodent was out before it was frozen the first time, and if it takes a half hour to thaw, and you leave it with the snake for an hour...then you've used up all your safe time in just 2 attempts.
The rodents we feed have all of their gut contents intact.  60% of feces is comprised of bacteria, by dry weight (hows that for a disturbing fact?)  The gut of a dead animal is a virulent mass of bacteria, no longer held in check by digestive enzymes and immune system functions.
While snakes no doubt have more resistance to harmful bacteria than we do, that doesn't mean that the bacteria in dead animals can't possibly make them sick.  It's in their best interests for us not to take such chances.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Tricks to win over a stubborn live-only eater:

First, feed live, but with the cage/drawer open, and you present.  If you can get your snake used to that, then move on to the next step.
Offer a stunned rodent on forceps.  If that is accepted...then on to the next step.
Offer a freshly pre-killed rodent on forceps.
Stick to that routine for several weeks, and make sure the snake is well used to it.
Heat an FT rodent until it is hot to the touch (not burning, but hot).  Rub the rodent in soiled bedding from live rodents--they usually pee in one corner.  This is gross, but get that FT rodent completely scented with the pee from the live ones.
Offer this to your snake, promptly, while it is still hot.

9 times out of 10 (or better), this will be accepted.  There's always that one snake once in a while that will give you a really dirty look, and turn away, but most will be fooled.  Once they've taken FT this way a few times, you can offer it unscented, and they'll scarf it right down.

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## SpencerShanks

I know this kills my comparison, but if you ask me everything is better reheated haha. Especially thanksgiving dinner.

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## satomi325

> I know this kills my comparison, but if you ask me everything is better reheated haha. Especially thanksgiving dinner.


Everything cooked that is  :Wink:

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## TrueDatxD

watch the snake eat to be sure it isnt bitten. if the rat does try to bite u can just block the rats teeth. or stun the rat...prekilled . whatever. very simple. that is why u tame your snake.

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## Gavin

I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.




> And I also feed live rats to my ferrets. It is 120% more healthy for them than eating commercial food (even the high quality brands). Feeding live provides enrichment and exercise for my ferrets when they hunt and take down rats.


 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?

Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets. Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.

I've seen people on YT put mice in bathtubs, call that "hunting" while they're either giggling about it in the background, putting rock music in the background, calling it an "epic battle" etc. IMO, most people feed live to ferrets just to watch their animal kill something. It's a power thing.




> I feed only live and have no inclination to feed f/t, I've converted numerous f/t feeders to live


This is exactly the reason why snake owners get a bad rap, because of idiots like you. Why would you want to: a) put your snake at unnecessary risk and b) put the feeder animal through unnecessary suffering? Sounds like a sicko to me.

I guess you're one of those people who see feeder animals as objects, and not living, breathing, feeling creatures. They can feel pain too you know. That's why we have a moral responsibility to minimise suffering where possible. After all, it is giving up its life for your snake... at least be decent about it.

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## RobNJ

No need for name calling Gavin...this is supposed to be a friendly forum. Differences in opinion are always welcome, name calling is not necessary.

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## zeion97

> I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?
> 
> Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets. Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.
> ...



Really... I smell a troll, and it's not because you're new and have 1 post, you type the same as someone we all know.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  if you're not then my bad. 

To this... Why would you insult Jerry? Really? We all have our OPINIONS, what gives you the right to attack him though...? :\

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## WingedWolfPsion

It's possible that he breeds his own rodents, so live is most convenient.

I'm not sure where the idea arises that live feeding is cruel to rodents.  I'm personally dubious about how comfortable CO2 euthanasia is, but when a snake constricts a rodent, the rodent is so startled, its body floods with adrenalin, which likely numbs it to any pain from the teeth--they are so sharp, they aren't very painful anyhow.  Loss of consciousness occurs within seconds, as the blood flow to the animal's brain is cut off.

Yes, occasionally a snake will hit the animal wrong and it will take longer, but that isn't the norm, and I'm sure that rodents fighting amongst themselves cause more unpleasantness than that, in rodent facilities.

There's no cruelty issue with live feeding, only safety issues.

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## Gavin

Even when people are intentionally being malicious? 

Sorry, but I will never, ever accept live feeding a ferret. Or intentionally throwing a rat to a snapping turtle and posting it on YT for the lulz. Those sorts of things. It just simply isn't needed at all, it's unnecessarily cruel. Seems like it is done because the owner gets a kick out of watching things die. I have no issue with those who live feed if it's a last resort... but I'm hearing stuff like "because it's convenient". Well, I'd like to see a decent backup of that argument because is that little bit of convenience worth the risk to the snake? I don't understand how it's any more convenient feeding live when with pre-killed, there is no issue of the animal biting back, no issue of prolonged suffering to the prey animal and no issue of parasites. Cheaper in bulk too (depending on where you live).

Now if this convenience comes from the fact that the snake cannot be fed f/t for whatever reason, then fair enough. I can understand. What I can't understand is doing it even if the snake accepts f/t.

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## zeion97

> Even when people are intentionally being malicious? 
> 
> Sorry, but I will never, ever accept live feeding a ferret. Or intentionally throwing a rat to a snapping turtle and posting it on YT for the lulz. Those sorts of things. It just simply isn't needed at all, it's unnecessarily cruel. Seems like it is done because the owner gets a kick out of watching things die. I have no issue with those who live feed if it's a last resort... but I'm hearing stuff like "because it's convenient". Well, I'd like to see a decent backup of that argument because is that little bit of convenience worth the risk to the snake? I don't understand how it's any more convenient feeding live when with pre-killed, there is no issue of the animal biting back, no issue of prolonged suffering to the prey animal and no issue of parasites. Cheaper in bulk too (depending on where you live).
> 
> Now if this convenience comes from the fact that the snake cannot be fed f/t for whatever reason, then fair enough. I can understand. What I can't understand is doing it even if the snake accepts f/t.


So I have TWO snakes that will only take LIVE, won't eat F/T or Pre-killed. (i've wasted quite a few rodents..) Am I supposed to let them starve? I say not. It's part of owning a animal. Some times you have to feed live and some times F/T, it really all depends on the snake.

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## Gavin

> I'm not sure where the idea arises that live feeding is cruel to rodents.


The idea arises when people start doing it for show (ie. for entertainment). 

Have you ever seen that video of a live rat being put in with a snapping turtle? Horrible stuff. It wasn't 'nature at work', it was some guy getting his jollies. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.




> There's no cruelty issue with live feeding, only safety issues.


I beg to differ. You're throwing the animal in an enclosure, where it will most likely be dreadfully frightened, unable to escape. I also cast doubt on your assessment on what the animal feels, or how long it takes to die. You do not know for sure how much adrenalin there would actually be, or whether it will actually numb any pain at all.

And what about with ferrets, and cats? A domesticated ferret that has never hunted in its life will most likely kill the animal slowly, or even play around with it. Not to mention that both these animals do not need a live animal thrown to it at all. To me, it's not very fair to do that. If the ferret and/or cat catches a mouse by itself, fair enough. But really, canned hunts... ??

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## Gavin

> So I have TWO snakes that will only take LIVE, won't eat F/T or Pre-killed. (i've wasted quite a few rodents..) Am I supposed to let them starve? I say not. It's part of owning a animal. Some times you have to feed live and some times F/T, it really all depends on the snake.


You know, reading is pretty valuable on forums. Read what I said: I said I have no issue with feeding live if it's a last resort thing.

But when you have people saying that they intentionally convert snakes from f/t to live... well, if I don't have a right to say that they're giving snake owners a bad name, then what right do they have putting snakes at risk and putting another animal through unnecessary pain?

As I said, the concept of live feeding irks me when people start doing it when it's completely unnecessary or "just for fun". There's that distinction. Snake owners get a bad rap because idiots put live feeding videos on YT and giggle/laugh at the mouse/rat  slowly dying. Live feeding itself doesn't annoy me, but that kind of stuff does. It shows a complete disrespect to life - I mean, how callous would you have to be to film it and laugh at the prey's demise?

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## WingedWolfPsion

If you have a large collection, using tongs to dangle a rodent before each one, which may take many minutes to decide it's hungry, is more than a little bit of inconvenience.  It's a tremendous addition of time, which some folks may simply not have to spare.  (Time better spent cleaning, etc).

The risk to the snake is really quite minimal, and as I've pointed out, a snake can even be injured by a dead rodent.  

I agree that feeding a mouse to a snapping turtle is unnecessary cruelty, I've seen that video as well.
While I've never owned a ferret, it's hard to imagine that a ferret does not kill extremely quickly.  I have no opinion on that.  I do agree, however, that the ferret would be just as happy with a dead rat, and a toy mouse on a string.  Ferrets, after all, are not wild animals.

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## Gavin

> If you have a large collection, using tongs to dangle a rodent before each one, which may take many minutes to decide it's hungry, is more than a little bit of inconvenience.  It's a tremendous addition of time, which some folks may simply not have to spare.  (Time better spent cleaning, etc).


I don't really think half an hour to an hour (or laziness for that matter) is an excuse to avoid being a little kinder. If it's an inconvenience to make another animal's death easier/less painful, well, I just don't know what to say about that...




> The risk to the snake is really quite minimal, and as I've pointed out, a snake can even be injured by a dead rodent.


The point would be to minimise the risk as much as possible, it is still there. Much like not wearing a seatbelt. From what, scratches? Which would be a significantly lesser chance of happening than something more serious, like a bite.




> While I've never owned a ferret, it's hard to imagine that a ferret does not kill extremely quickly.  I have no opinion on that.  I do agree, however, that the ferret would be just as happy with a dead rat, and a toy mouse on a string.  Ferrets, after all, are not wild animals.


Ferrets can be clumsy animals, especially one that has no experience killing anything at all. Can't expect them to be master killers overnight. There's a reason why you hardly ever see pre-killed feedings on YT for ferrets - because it's boring/not as exhilarating for the owner. Not a snuff film.

BTW, here's a link to a good video that pretty much sums up my thoughts on the whole issue:




Veteran snake owner with over 20 years of experience... he's even weened a wild snake off live. He's got 3 other parts to it, I recommend watching it.

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## zeion97

> You know, reading is pretty valuable on forums. Read what I said: I said I have no issue with feeding live if it's a last resort thing.
> 
> But when you have people saying that they intentionally convert snakes from f/t to live... well, if I don't have a right to say that they're giving snake owners a bad name, then what right do they have putting snakes at risk and putting another animal through unnecessary pain?
> 
> As I said, the concept of live feeding irks me when people start doing it when it's completely unnecessary or "just for fun". There's that distinction. Snake owners get a bad rap because idiots put live feeding videos on YT and giggle/laugh at the mouse/rat  slowly dying. Live feeding itself doesn't annoy me, but that kind of stuff does. It shows a complete disrespect to life - I mean, how callous would you have to be to film it and laugh at the prey's demise?


To your insult.. Really?

You say as a last resort? Why? Why honestly? Because you don't like it, well that's your opinion.. But you don't need to argue and pick apart peoples responses so you can try to convert someone or in turn make them look bad. I feed live, so what's the problem? I do it carefully and I don't smack the poor rodent against a rock to stun it.

This was a question thread, not a thread to try to convert everyone to F/T, or whatever someone sees fit. If you don't like the fact some of us feed live, well I really don't know what to tell you..

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## Gavin

> You say as a last resort? Why? Why honestly? Because you don't like it, well that's your opinion.. But you don't need to argue and pick apart peoples responses so you can try to convert someone or in turn make them look bad. I feed live, so what's the problem? I do it carefully and I don't smack the poor rodent against a rock to stun it.


No, not because I dislike it... because it's an _unnecessary_ risk to the snake and it's arguably unnecessarily cruel. If your snake will refuse to eat a dead animal, well you're not going to let it starve... that'd be much more cruel. This is why I made the concession.




> This was a question thread, not a thread to try to convert everyone to F/T, or whatever someone sees fit. If you don't like the fact some of us feed live, well I really don't know what to tell you..


Oh so I can't say my own opinion, even if it's contrary to some on here? I thought this was a "friendly" forum...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I'm not trying to convert anyone, I am discussing the issue of ethics here. Which is _entirely_ relevant when feeding a live, concious mammal to another animal.

It's not that I don't like the fact that people feed live, it's some of the reasons. "Because I like to see my snake kill things" - sadistic much? That's a legitimate reason?? What if I said I fed live snakes to my pet mongooses because "I enjoyed watching them kill things"? Would you like that? Of course you wouldn't... because it's completely disgusting and inappropriate. Using _sadism_ as a reason shouldn't be acceptable. There are legitimate reasons to feed live to snakes, "because I enjoy watching things die" isn't one of them. :/

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## zeion97

> No, not because I dislike it... because it's an _unnecessary_ risk to the snake and it's arguably unnecessarily cruel. If your snake will refuse to eat a dead animal, well you're not going to let it starve... that'd be much more cruel. This is why I made the concession.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh so I can't say my own opinion, even if it's contrary to some on here? I thought this was a "friendly" forum... 
> 
> I'm not trying to convert anyone, I am discussing the issue of ethics here. Which is _entirely_ relevant when feeding a live, concious mammal to another animal.
> 
> It's not that I don't like the fact that people feed live, it's some of the reasons. "Because I like to see my snake kill things" - sadistic much? That's a legitimate reason?? What if I said I fed live snakes to my pet mongooses because "I enjoyed watching them kill things"? Would you like that? Of course you wouldn't... because it's completely disgusting and inappropriate. Using _sadism_ as a reason shouldn't be acceptable. There are legitimate reasons to feed live to snakes, "because I enjoy watching things die" isn't one of them. :/


Don't try to turn my own words against me, and to add to it you did a horrible job at that. 

What I said, you don't need to pick it all apart, you're entitled to your opinion. BUT, you do NOT need to force it on us or take apart our phrases.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

You're entitled to your opinion, have at it. But don't place your opinion above ours because you think it isn't right.

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## Gavin

> Don't try to turn my own words against me, and to add to it you did a horrible job at that. 
> 
> What I said, you don't need to pick it all apart, you're entitled to your opinion. BUT, you do NOT need to force it on us or take apart our phrases. 
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion, have at it. But don't place your opinion above ours because you think it isn't right.


I'm not forcing it on any one. I was having a good discussion with WingedWolfPsion in fact... and "take apart" ? If I see a statement I feel needs responding to then I will respond to it, after all it's directed to me. Should I ignore it??

Opinions are fine and all, but I do not take too kindly to malicious people. That includes people who give snake owners a bad name. And I will say that, whether you like it or not. Do you really think it's good for people to start saying they convert f/t to live and smile about it as if they're genuinely satisfied with it? And say they feed live because they like to see things die? No, it isn't good at all because it will give the impression that snake owners are sadistic. And all those videos on YT where snake owners are laughing and egging the snake own... what about that? That's not a really good reflection of the community, opinion or no opinion!

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## zeion97

> I'm not forcing it on any one. I was having a good discussion with WingedWolfPsion in fact... and "take apart" ? If I see a statement I feel needs responding to then I will respond with it, after all it's directed to me. Should I ignore it??
> 
> Opinions are fine and all, but I do not take too kindly to malicious people. And I will say that, whether you like it or not.


lol.. I stand by what I said first. You just can't let yourself look bad.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

And yes, you should. Why, it's there opinion. As long as it isn't _inhumane_ it shouldn't be yours to worry about. 

Feeding live is part of having a pet. Like I said, if you don't like then I don't know what to tell you. 

You can try to twist my words and make me look bad all you want, it doesn't bother me, but I won't feed you any more..lol

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## zeion97

Another double post.. Wow. I apologize. Internet is being odd tonight.

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## Gavin

> And yes, you should. Why, it's there opinion. As long as it isn't _inhumane_ it shouldn't be yours to worry about.


Yeah, because feeding something live to a snake because _the person likes to watch things die_ isn't inhumane. Good one. I've noticed you've completely ignored the issue of people live feeding and posting it on YT for giggles. Yes, definitely not inhumane there.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

You seem to be falling back on the "it's their opinion" line. That's not an excuse for the behaviour I listed.




> Feeding live is part of having a pet. Like I said, if you don't like then I don't know what to tell you.


And being all sadistic about is part of having a pet too I suppose?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> You can try to twist my words and make me look bad all you want, it doesn't bother me, but I won't feed you any more..lol


I don't need to, because you're completely missing the point.

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## zeion97

> Yeah, because feeding something live to a snake because _the person likes to watch things die_ isn't inhumane. Good one. I've noticed you've completely ignored the issue of people live feeding and posting it on YT for giggles. Yes, definitely not inhumane there. 
> 
> You seem to be falling back on the "it's their opinion" line. That's not an excuse for the behaviour I listed.
> 
> 
> 
> And being all sadistic about is part of having a pet too I suppose? 
> 
> 
> ...


No, no, no. I am not. You just want to make it look like it. I really don't know what you won't let it die... You keep going back to all this stuff on youtube, BUT you are talking about us. Oh yeah, I throw a live rat in and watch my Burmese kill it and laugh. Yeah you know me so well..  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Why am I feeding you..? It's funny to be honest... You act like you're going somewhere but you're not. 

And please, for me. Point out where I said the people on youtube were right for feeding for fun? Come on, give me some proof to that, until then i'll laugh it up some more. 

Now I have more important things then this. If you want to keep posting your opinions and tell everyone it isn't right to feed live, go at it, but don't attack someone straight up like you first did.

Regards, and thanks for the laughs.  :Smile:   :ROFL:

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## Gavin

> No, no, no. I am not. You just want to make it look like it. I really don't know what you won't let it die... You keep going back to all this stuff on youtube, BUT you are talking about us. Oh yeah, I throw a live rat in and watch my Burmese kill it and laugh. Yeah you know me so well..


Please quote me where I said any one here as done such things. Specifically you.

For the record, I was bagging that one guy who said he feeds live because he enjoys watching his snake kill. That's being sadistic.

Using strawman arguments usually happens because people either can't comprehend what was written, or didn't read what was written. I've been very clear on this. If you're either not going to read or continue to misinterpret me then that's your problem, not mine.




> And please, for me. Point out where I said the people on youtube were right for feeding for fun? Come on, give me some proof to that, until then i'll laugh it up some more.


Why should I give proof to something I have never accused you of doing?  :Confused: 




> Now I have more important things then this. If you want to keep posting your opinions and tell everyone it isn't right to feed live, go at it, but don't attack someone straight up like you first did.


I'll attack them because they're being an idiot. Converting f/t to eat only live is an idiotic thing to do, and is generally careless towards both the animal's welfare. If the snake eats f/t, _why_ convert it to live? So they can enjoy watching their animal kill something?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> I feed only live and have no inclination to feed f/t, I've converted numerous f/t feeders to live


This was the post in question.

There's no wisdom or sense in doing this. In fact, this person seems to revel in it... which tells me there's an ulterior motive apart from simply "just feeding my snake". And you wonder why a lot of people label snake owners as sickos.

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## WingedWolfPsion

I believe I've already addressed the idea of it being cruel to rodents, and the time involved would be several hours.    So, how about not being overly worried about the rodents, which have a reasonably quick and humane death, and not being overly worried about the snakes, which rarely take any injury from their prey...with the bonus that time is saved.  The snakes also get fresh, healthy food.

I think your argument against live feeding would be like forcing your dog to wear shoes all the time because he might get a scratch on his pad.  That would be minimizing his risk of injury as much as possible, lol.

My rats are more cruel to each when the occasional fight breaks out, than the snakes are to them.  You can't keep the rats apart because of it, because that would be cruel as well, and predicting such fights isn't possible.

There's no end to the amount of discomfort in the world...but there is a limit to how much you need to be concerned about it.

Feed FT if you prefer, it's often more convenient and cheaper if you do not have local source for live rodents for the same price.  If you are a breeder, however, you're going to have to feed live at some point, because many baby balls simply won't start on dead food.  Your FT rodents came from a facility where rats occasionally killed each other messily.  Just letting you know.

I don't agree with the practice of posting videos of feeding live animals to pets on YouTube, but I wouldn't call the human reaction to watching predation 'sadism'.
It's not sadism.  Humans are predators, and when they watch these things happen, they identify with the predator--it excites their instincts, and there is nothing at all strange about that, or wrong with it.  It is a natural reaction.  It's the reason why chase and kill scenes are included in documentaries about predators--people get a thrill from it.
It's not the suffering of the prey that creates this reaction, it's the empathy for the hunter.

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Foschi Exotic Serpents (01-12-2012),_zeion97_ (01-12-2012)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Nature is nature... When you have multiple ball pythons and breed them, you will have to feed something live at some point. 

Me?? I only feed live up to a certain age. Once baby snakes are large enough to eat rat weans, they get prekilled. Still fresh. No F/T. 

I agree wholeheartedly with the post before me by the way.. 

Breeding my own has gotten annoying as I must keep them in my house. Part of the reason I've gravitated away from balls and find myself going back to my first love of the larger species.. Plus they actually eat... Every time.. No matter what's offered..

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_zeion97_ (01-12-2012)

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## Gavin

> I believe I've already addressed the idea of it being cruel to rodents, and the time involved would be several hours.    So, how about not being overly worried about the rodents, which have a reasonably quick and humane death, and not being overly worried about the snakes, which rarely take any injury from their prey...with the bonus that time is saved.  The snakes also get fresh, healthy food.


Well no, you didn't really address the fact that you're inducing terror to the animal and the pain it experiences from a snake killing it. Considering pre-killed is kinder to the animal in that respect, I don't think your cruelty argument has a leg to stand on. Especially considering the reference to people doing it because they like to see other things suffer. That in itself, is cruel.

TBH, I'm more worried about the mental state of people who do it for kicks.

By the way, I can't really buy the convenience excuse when f/t is not really that hard to do and arguably even easier because you have to supervise a live feeding whereas with pre-killed you drop it in with the snake and can use the time doing something else.




> I think your argument against live feeding would be like forcing your dog to wear shoes all the time because he might get a scratch on his pad.  That would be minimizing his risk of injury as much as possible, lol.


Not really. There have been many, many documented cases of mice or rats giving nasty injuries to snakes. Unless you allow a dog to step all over sharp, broken glass, then comparing the two is a pretty big stretch.




> My rats are more cruel to each when the occasional fight breaks out, than the snakes are to them.  You can't keep the rats apart because of it, because that would be cruel as well, and predicting such fights isn't possible.


Playfighting or showing dominance is more cruel? How so? If they're fighting to the death, then you'd have to separate them.




> There's no end to the amount of discomfort in the world...but there is a limit to how much you need to be concerned about it.


So why should that stop me from being concerned about particular YT videos, or people simply feeding live simply because they enjoy it?




> Your FT rodents came from a facility where rats occasionally killed each other messily.  Just letting you know.


Which I have absolutely no way of knowing or preventing, thus it is not relevant.




> I don't agree with the practice of posting videos of feeding live animals to pets on YouTube, but I wouldn't call the human reaction to watching predation 'sadism'.


Deriving pleasure from the pain of another is textboox sadism.




> It's not sadism.  Humans are predators, and when they watch these things happen, they identify with the predator--it excites their instincts, and there is nothing at all strange about that, or wrong with it.  It is a natural reaction.


Natural to a child, maybe. But to an adult that can understand what context means? Right.

As human beings we have higher cognitive functions, know right from wrong, etc. We aren't wild animals, we're animals intelligent enough to recognise the suffering of others. Putting one animal into a situation where it will most likely suffer and chuckle about its pain and death is called "being sick in the head". It seems to me you're trying to justify this behaviour under the guise of it being "natural". Perhaps we're on the same level as all the other animals then? No, I don't think so. You know what else is natural? Rape. Happens all the time in the wild, animals can't control their urges and there you go.

Doesn't mean it isn't sadistic for the rapist to enjoy doing what they do. And it doesn't mean it isn't wrong either.

Tell me, if I threw a snake to a small space with a larger, carnivorous animal, filmed it and laughed as it was ripped to pieces... I suppose there's nothing wrong with that too? It's "natural", after all.




> It's the reason why chase and kill scenes are included in documentaries about predators--people get a thrill from it.
> It's not the suffering of the prey that creates this reaction, it's the empathy for the hunter.


Thrill of the hunt != thrill from seeing something cry out in pain. What empathy for the hunter? What are you talking about?

Making comparisons of thrilling predatory chases in the wild to intentionally creating a situation to make another animal suffer, and laughing about it is not even comparable. Not even in the slightest bit. You're using a naturalistic fallacy here, suggesting that just because something might be natural means it isn't wrong. Well, if you think causing animals pain and filming it for laughs isn't ethically objectionable in the least then I'm going to really have to question the premise of that.

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## Gavin

> which rarely take any injury from their prey


Yet hundreds of pet snakes are killed every year by rodents. If not from infections from bites, especially bites to the eyes, then diseases from mites that could have been easily prevented by freezing and thawing a pre-killed rodent. And why almost every single care sheet and private breeding organization that sells snakes tells owners it's far safer for the animal to feed pre-killed. Feeding live is also illegal in many countries, and the snake pet trade is just fine. Just for fun, here's a picture of a juvenile ball python that was killed and then partially eaten by a mouse. Not even a rat, a mouse.

Even watching it won't change a quick bite to the eye. Human reaction time just isn't fast enough, nor will you be able to predict it. Picky eaters or no, even a large corporate chain like PetCo has all of their snakes on frozen/thawed from pinkes through fuzzies and hoppers and adults.

Feeding live mice, rats, rabbits, etc. on up to captive predatory animals is unnecessary. Whatever vague 'enrichment' you give the animal should be tempered by the needless suffering of the prey item. There's also practical reasons not to do it. Captive bred animals are not wild and prey can fight back. And I have seen snakes, even big snakes, killed by careless owners who drop a rat in and walk away. Rodents and birds used as prey items can carry ticks and other parasites which freezing gets rid of.

Here is a major snake forum detailing what a live animal can do to a snake. If you really think there is minimal risk to the snake, then you are severely misinformed and are just trying to find excuses. This is why I think that live feeding, _if the snake can be fed f/t_ is highly irresponsible and arguably unnecessarily cruel. Now, I've read some previous posts on this site, and I have found that many people here see feeder animals as "objects" rather than living things. That is quite concerning, and further illustrates the point that if people see feeders as inanimate objects, then they should not even be owning such animals or pets dependant on them. Your snakes might be priority #1 here, but even feeder animals deserve respect. After all, they've giving up their lives for your pet's benefit. And yet I see people here treat them like rubbish and like objects. If that is their "opinion" on such animals, then I say "stuff these brutes, they can shove it".

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## Egapal

Gavin you are doing the same thing missy king did. Most people on this site will agree that if you have a snake eating F/T and you are a pet owner with a hand full of snakes then great F/T is great. The problem is that you are demonizing feeding live. Feeding live makes a lot of sense for those of us who have problem eaters. I am not going to pre-kill a rodent just to throw it away. Yes I know I can freeze it, but as I have said I will only freeze once and my snake can go months without eating. Having one rodent die a slightly more painful death is, in my opinion, more humane than killing 2 painlessly. There are people who do things because they like being cruel. Ok granted. You aren't going to get through to them and by lumping me in with them you taint the conversation. Most people on this forum are concerned with the health and well being of our snakes and the pain we inflict on feeders to keep our snakes healthy. That being said the feeders I raise have much less pain in my care than they would in the wild. They live longer, they are healthier and they die with less pain. I am happy when I hear the squeek of a rodent being constricted. Not because I am a sadist. I am happy for the same reason I will be happy when I hear the cry of my child getting immunized. I know that pain and death are part of life and that rodent has to die for my snake to live. Whether it dies under questionable conditions in a rodent raising business and is shipped to me frozen, or gets constricted in front of me, its death is necessary. We are sitting here quibbling over how. I assure you that if I have the option to die in a gas chamber, have my spine severed or get eaten by a lion. I am not going to take any great solace in the least painful option. I am going to be really upset regardless, and how dare someone feel better about themselves for having spared me the lion only to severe my spine.

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_Jay_Bunny_ (01-13-2012),_satomi325_ (01-13-2012),_WingedWolfPsion_ (01-12-2012)

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## Egapal

Oh and Gavin, don't get me wrong I agree with much of what you are saying. My only point is that not all feeding live is the same, or done for poor reasons. Not all snake species are the same and an argument for one species doesn't necessarily hold for a BP. I think you are placing too much emphasis on the "suffering" of the rodents. Not that I think there isn't an element of pain involved. I just feel that the suffering in the animals life must be taken into account as well as the pain in an alternate death. I consider the last minute of an animals life far less important than the life leading up to that and far less grave than the fact that I am facilitating its death.

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## Gavin

> The problem is that you are demonizing feeding live.


Not necessarily. I did mention that if it's a last resort thing, I'm fine with it. But I would say feeding live just for entertainment is a pretty demonic thing to do!




> There are people who do things because they like being cruel. Ok granted. You aren't going to get through to them and by lumping me in with them you taint the conversation.


Some people are just generally ignorant, with the facts presented, it might. But that matters not, the criticism against such people is warranted. And as I said... genuine reasons such as with people like you, I have no beef with. It's only those who "do it for the lulz" or use weak excuses (like it's 'inconvenient').




> I am happy when I hear the squeek of a rodent being constricted. Not because I am a sadist. I am happy for the same reason I will be happy when I hear the cry of my child getting immunized. I know that pain and death are part of life and that rodent has to die for my snake to live. Whether it dies under questionable conditions in a rodent raising business and is shipped to me frozen, or gets constricted in front of me, its death is necessary.


And I understand that! Which is why it's not directed to folks such as yourself.




> I think you are placing too much emphasis on the "suffering" of the rodents.


Too much? Hmm, I don't agree. Mainly because I am concerned about unnecessary cruelty to the animal in question, which I believe is something to consider.




> I consider the last minute of an animals life far less important than the life leading up to that and far less grave than the fact that I am facilitating its death.


Fair enough, but the method of death should still be considered! This is why, for example, I use a snap trap if I have a mouse problem, and never a glue trap (these torture traps rile me up even more, but that's a topic for another day).

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## Egapal

> Not necessarily. I did mention that if it's a last resort thing, I'm fine with it. But I would say feeding live just for entertainment is a pretty demonic thing to do!


There you go, doing it again. There are reasons between last resort and entertainment.




> Some people are just generally ignorant, with the facts presented, it might. But that matters not, the criticism against such people is warranted. And as I said... genuine reasons such as with people like you, I have no beef with. It's only those who "do it for the lulz" or use weak excuses (like it's 'inconvenient').


I don't consider inconvenient to be a week excuse. Depending on the person it can be a perfectly logical reason. I am fine with criticizing the "do it for the lulz" people. I just think you need to be careful you don't cross into lumping the good guys that would otherwise agree with you.




> And I understand that! Which is why it's not directed to folks such as yourself.


Thank you. I felt that your comments were in some ways critical of me and people like me. That's all I wanted to point out.




> Too much? Hmm, I don't agree. Mainly because I am concerned about unnecessary cruelty to the animal in question, which I believe is something to consider.


 You are using words like unnecessary and cruelty and they are sorrily very subjective. What you consider unnecessarily cruel others might not. I don't necessarily accept your assertion that feeding live is unnecessarily cruel. We all agree that the rodent feels pain and we all know its going to die. As long as a person is not feeding live specifically because its more painful to the rodent I don't find it cruel. Casually indifferent to its pain? Sure, but not cruel. Again my rodents feel much less pain in total with me than they would in the wild and I would argue less pain than they would if raised by someone who cared less or was looking to make money on thier life. You may not feel that makes up for the last minute of pain in their life but I do.




> Fair enough, but the method of death should still be considered! This is why, for example, I use a snap trap if I have a mouse problem, and never a glue trap (these torture traps rile me up even more, but that's a topic for another day).


I think that's a very valid point that I agree with 100%. Its not analogous though. The death by BP is not even close to a glue trap. I feed appropriately sized rodents and my BP dispatches them very quickly. If my BP was a worse hunter like my king snake was, I would have had to reconsider. For every callous keeper on this forum there many more who really care. I think your message would be better intended if maybe worse received by the average Ball Python keeper than by the members of this forum. The average person on this forum is here because they care enough to put in the time to learn about the many aspects of husbandry. I am all for extolling the virtues of F/T or pre-killed but people can ruin that too. They can feed partially frozen prey. They can buy from sources that don't freeze fresh or who kill their rodents inhumanly. They can cook the rodent in boiling water. They can lay a wet F/T rodent on substrate which can result in impaction in extreme cases. Far better that we find out the what people are doing and why and attack the problems not the action.

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## Egapal

> Too much? Hmm, I don't agree. Mainly because I am concerned about unnecessary cruelty to the animal in question, which I believe is something to consider.


To clarify I know what cruel means in a dictionary definition. I think that those of us who have a hobby that requires animals to die and/or those of us who are not vegetarians should not use cruel as defined "causing or conducive to injury, grief, or pain." By that definition we are cruel for eating meat, and cruel for keeping a carnivore as a pet. I feel like you are trying to use it defined as "unrelieved by leniency." And to the extent that I agree with you I agree with this definition. The problem is that what might be cruel to a rodent at a given point must be weighed against the well being of the snake, the other rodents, and most importantly the feeders quality of life leading up to that last minute. I prefer to use the definition "disposed to inflict pain or suffering : devoid of humane feelings" and in that regard most people on this forum are not cruel and non are cruel simply because they feed live.

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## rjk890

*There are pros and cons to feeding live, p/k, and f/t, and there is nothing wrong with any one of them.
It is not a "right or wrong way of doing things" topic.*

A thread like this is useful as long as we share the pros and cons of each option, our own experiences with each method, and maybe even our reason why the method(s) we use work best for us as an individual keeper, and why.

That way anyone reading this thread, or a similar thread, can take all of that information and form their own opinion, and then see what works best for themselves.

Once you start judging others for having a different opinion and approach to keeping and maintaining their own collection, whether it is done due to having a different opinion, simply out of convenience, or even as a source of entertainment, you are detracting from the usefulness of your post, the thread itself, and also the friendliness of the friendliest online community for ALL of your herping needs !

This post itself is very much towing the line.
 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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_zeion97_ (01-12-2012)

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## Homegrownscales

I agree with alot that has been said thus far. Something that I would like to pint out though is, whether people get a kick out of their ball hunting and eating or not is actually irrelevant. If you feed live the same thing is going to happen. So what if you watch and like it. The animal will be dispatched in the same method. Personally to me those people are just enjoying their pet. Yes another animal dies. But it's feeding their animals. Now... I saw this before and I Said it then as well. I feed live out of conveinence... Yes. Mostly because I'm not going to thaw out 10 rats and feed another 50 live ones. That just isn't going to work. So I feed 60 something live ones and get through my feeding routine without all the craziness. That doesn't mean I'm lazy, nor does it mean that I'm cruel or anything else. It means I have a large collection and I do best for that collection with my lifestyle. I have not had any sort of injury to my collection from feeding live in over 2 years. And even then it was a little scratch that healed quickly. A day or two later you couldn't even see it. How do I know? Well because I specifically have a procedure for feeding my balls. And everyone is well watched and any feeding notes are well documented. Not every ball is ok with pk or ft. I know that if you came to my house and thawed 65 rats and went and placed one in each tub maybe 3 would eat. Then if you took the other 62 that didn't and played the rat zombie game feeding would take 2-4 hours. Again, would you do that weekly? When you have other responsibilities like cleaning cages rat/ball/ or otherwise? How about when you have to feed 200 other animals? For me it's Give and take. The welfare for everyone in a whole is most important to me. Cleaned, watered, fed is a daily thing for some of my Herps. Weather you agree or not is unimportant. But try not to group folks with being lazy or sadistic      

You can give your ball pythons parasites from ft. I don't know if you know that. It does happen. Just as injury and deaths happen from ft as well. Too hot, or too cold and your ball goes into shock and could die. Accidentally cooking or bad rodents etc and your ball could die. 

What I do know Is I breed my own rats. They are healthy, parasite free and kept in immaculate conditions. You should see some rodent breeding operations that breed to provide ft. I'm sure some of them aren't the most pleasant conditions for the rats. I'm sure even some of them are inhumane. 
Freezing doesn't kill all parasites. I beleive there's a few members here who's balls are being treated or have been treated for tape worm and they were only fed ft. 

So like I have said before there are many pros and cons to each way. Just because you feed live because its more convenient, or you like to watch your snake eat, doesn't make it worse or cruel to the rats or anything like that. If people were sticking live rats in tubs letting the snake constrict it and then taking the rat away and lettin the snake do it over and over again I would consider that cruel. But them again we all have our own opinions. 
Btw fwiw yes rodents and other live prey can kill snakes. Many of those situations like the picture you captioned Gavin, is from days or weeks of a rodent being left in a closed off area with the snake no food no water. So yes their instinct tell them how to survive. But that isn't the normal, and you won't find one person in here anyways that just throws rodents in tubs or cages and walks away and that's the end of it. Every technique has its own procedure. You follow that and you'll really Hve no issues. You don't and either way can kill your snake. 


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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_satomi325_ (01-13-2012),_WingedWolfPsion_ (01-12-2012),_zeion97_ (01-12-2012)

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## Gavin

> There you go, doing it again. There are reasons between last resort and entertainment.


I don't agree with them.

If your snake can feed on f/t, then what reason is there to feed live?




> I don't consider inconvenient to be a week excuse. Depending on the person it can be a perfectly logical reason.


I don't consider being lazy or being indifferent to the feeder's welfare as logical. Saying something like "oh who cares if it suffers" is pretty weak.




> You are using words like unnecessary and cruelty and they are sorrily very subjective. What you consider unnecessarily cruel others might not. I don't necessarily accept your assertion that feeding live is unnecessarily cruel.


Well that's the beauty of discussion, isn't it? It all depends on context, really.




> I think that's a very valid point that I agree with 100%. Its not analogous though. The death by BP is not even close to a glue trap.


Wasn't really supposed to be analogous, the principle behind it is the same however.

As for the rest of your post, fair enough. I have nothing really to argue there.

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## Gavin

> Something that I would like to pint out though is, whether people get a kick out of their ball hunting and eating or not is actually irrelevant. If you feed live the same thing is going to happen. So what if you watch and like it. The animal will be dispatched in the same method.


Are you saying intent means nothing? No way, it means a hell of a lot. It is the crossing line between what is abject animal cruelty and what isn't.

If someone had the intention feeding live purely on the basis that they get their jollies out of it, then they should not be doing it. In fact... they should not even be owning pets if they enjoy causing and watching other animals suffer. Whether the same thing happens to the mouse or not isn't really the issue, it's if the person has malicious intent. And you're saying that doesn't matter because the mouse dies anyway??




> Weather you agree or not is unimportant. But try not to group folks with being lazy or sadistic


Sorry, but if people like to watch other animals in pain then they're being sadistic. I can't really explain this any more easier.




> You can give your ball pythons parasites from ft. I don't know if you know that. It does happen. Just as injury and deaths happen from ft as well. Too hot, or too cold and your ball goes into shock and could die. Accidentally cooking or bad rodents etc and your ball could die.


I'd like to know what kind of parasite can survive the freezing process. The latter can easily be controlled - can you say the same for a live, unpredictable animal?




> Just because you feed live because its more convenient, or you like to watch your snake eat, doesn't make it worse or cruel to the rats or anything like that.


Of course it makes it worse.

If you're killing them for pleasure, that indicates a malicious mindset. Wanting to cause pain to another animal and getting pleasure from it is far worse than not getting pleasure from it and being indifferent.




> Many of those situations like the picture you captioned Gavin, is from days or weeks of a rodent being left in a closed off area with the snake no food no water.


I'd recommend taking a look at the forum thread I linked. Those instances were not "days or weeks"... a mouse has sharp enough teeth to take out an eye. In an instant. It has happened before. Just because it never happened with you doesn't mean it never will, and doesn't mean it is not an unnecessary risk.




> Every technique has its own procedure. You follow that and you'll really Hve no issues. You don't and either way can kill your snake.


You can tell that to the people who had to pay expensive vet bills because a rat or mouse struck and took out an eye, or left a deep wound that would become infected.

And this is exactly why I don't buy any of these "convenience issues". Doing it for entertainment is flat out disgusting and should not be encouraged. If your snake is perfectly capable of taking f/t, then there's really no justification to feed it live unless you think a minute convenience outweighs the danger to the snake (and the suffering of the prey animal).

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## akjadlnfkjfdkladf

> I don't consider being lazy or being indifferent to the feeder's welfare as logical. Saying something like "oh who cares if it *suffers*" is pretty weak.


Why _would_ death by ball python constriction be considered "suffering" if death by being locked in a freezer _would'nt_  be considered "suffering"?

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_zeion97_ (01-12-2012)

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## purplemuffin

Who locks their rodents in a freezer to kill them?! I would consider that suffering as well. The rodents we have were killed either by gassing or spinal separation.

We've had the occasional rat that 'just wouldn't give up', and it's heartbreaking to watch. Especially when the snake just didn't get the best grip on the rodent and it kills it in a weird and long lasting way. We even had a rodent...well..it's guts shot out. Alive. I definitely cried that night, it was awful. Usually it's 'quick', but often times the times when we think the rodent is dead it's still alive, just knocked out of has given up. Not fun to see what you thought was dead have one last two or three kicks much later on. I can understand feeling bad for the rodent. Honestly, the fact that Maru won't take f/t reliably drives me nuts, and it's kind of preventing me from wanting ball pythons in the future, due to their notorious nature for not accepting f/t prey.

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## Gavin

> I feed live out of conveinence... Yes. Mostly because I'm not going to thaw out 10 rats and feed another 50 live ones. That just isn't going to work. So I feed 60 something live ones and get through my feeding routine without all the craziness.


What is so crazy about thawing mice and simply just giving them to your snake?




> That doesn't mean I'm lazy, nor does it mean that I'm cruel or anything else. It means I have a large collection and I do best for that collection with my lifestyle. I have not had any sort of injury to my collection from feeding live in over 2 years. And even then it was a little scratch that healed quickly. A day or two later you couldn't even see it. How do I know? Well because I specifically have a procedure for feeding my balls. And everyone is well watched and any feeding notes are well documented. Not every ball is ok with pk or ft. I know that if you came to my house and thawed 65 rats and went and placed one in each tub maybe 3 would eat. Then if you took the other 62 that didn't and played the rat zombie game feeding would take 2-4 hours. Again, would you do that weekly? When you have other responsibilities like cleaning cages rat/ball/ or otherwise? How about when you have to feed 200 other animals?


If your time is so important to you than perhaps you should either get a couple of assistants to help you, or not keep so many reptiles? You say you watch them during the live feeding process... would that not take just as much time too? Have you even tried giving them f/t or just simply dumped in a live animal because you couldn't be bothered thawing them? Have you tried converting them? Of course it's going to take time and patience... you own many reptiles for heaven's sake. What happens if one of the animals gets in a bite and it's a deep one? What then? 2-4 hours is nothing on a per week basis, especially with so many pets that you are responsible for.

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## Gavin

> Why _would_ death by ball python constriction be considered "suffering" if death by being locked in a freezer _would'nt_  be considered "suffering"?


What?

Putting a live mammal in the freezer is not humane in the slightest, whoever is doing that is possibly breaking the law. No respectable vet, breeder, snake enthusiast or otherwise would even do or entertain the thought of such a thing. I don't know where you're getting this information from.

Cervical dislocation and CO2 are the methods used which are approved by vets and animal laboratories the world over. Whoever chucks them alive in a freezer is just committing animal cruelty.

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## zeion97

...*sighs*

That's all I can say besides..

*grabs popcorn*

As I state when i tech.. "I can teach everything I know about cooking, But I can not make you learn"

Regardless, you yourself see your opinion as better then ours. So to be honest? *WHY* do you care so much that we feed live? I'm not going to convert to F/T to please you.

And earlier since Jerry never said anything, you know that person you called stupid? I'd take his advice over almost anyone I know. Why? He knows his stuff. :\

So really, stop bashing our opinions, and accept that we do don't do what you like.

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## Gavin

> We've had the occasional rat that 'just wouldn't give up', and it's heartbreaking to watch. Especially when the snake just didn't get the best grip on the rodent and it kills it in a weird and long lasting way. We even had a rodent...well..it's guts shot out. Alive. I definitely cried that night, it was awful.


And to think people get entertained by this sort of thing. There were even a couple of people on here trying to rationalise such 'entertainment' because "they enjoyed watching their pets" or "it's their opinion". Stuff like this is on YT with laughing idiots in the background... I can't believe someone tried to pass that off as not being "sadistic", but "natural". Dear lord.

That we can sympathise with the rat is, IMO, what makes us human really. What separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. Empathy is a good quality to have. Kudos to you my friend.

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## RobNJ

> And to think people get entertained by this sort of thing. There were even a couple of people on here trying to rationalise such 'entertainment' because "they enjoyed watching their pets" or "it's their opinion". Stuff like this is on YT with laughing idiots in the background... I can't believe someone tried to pass that off as not being "sadistic", but "natural".


Having read this thread, i can't recall anyone they saying they feed live for kicks...so i think you're preaching to the wrong choir. Your vendetta may be better carried out commenting on YouTube than it is here.

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_rjk890_ (01-12-2012),_satomi325_ (01-13-2012),_zeion97_ (01-12-2012)

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## Gavin

> Regardless, you yourself see your opinion as better then ours. So to be honest? *WHY* do you care so much that we feed live? I'm not going to convert to F/T to please you.


Ok, I'm only going to say this once: shut up.

I was having a good discussion with a couple of members here, then you sprout up with this strawman. I never, ever stated that my opinion is better than any one else's. Why do I care? Because I'm a human being that dislikes pointless suffering in a controlled situation, and dislikes putting pets at risk.

If my sympathy for feeder animals and disdain to some of the reasons of live feeding offends you... or you think that somehow makes me self-righteous... then grow up. Really.




> And earlier since Jerry never said anything, you know that person you called stupid? I'd take his advice over almost anyone I know. Why? He knows his stuff. :\


Never said anything? I've given you the quote as to why I called him an idiot. I don't care if he's friggen Einstein, that comment had a hint of malice about it. Converting f/t to live... _why_? What reason would you do this for? It makes zero sense and it was idiotic... sorry I didn't sugarcoat it for you.




> So really, stop bashing our opinions, and accept that we do don't do what you like.


You've contributed absolutely nothing in terms of a retort - instead taking potshots. I actually agreed with some of the live feeders on here on particular points. Oh, I accept it fine... that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Or like it for that matter. If such a forthright honesty offends you... well... build a bridge...  :Cool:

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## Gavin

> Having read this thread, i can't recall anyone they saying they feed live for kicks...so i think you're preaching to the wrong choir. Your vendetta may be better carried out commenting on YouTube than it is here.


Here:




> I could give you a BS answer and think of some reason that I think live is better for my boy, or steal an answer from a more educated and experienced snake owner... BUT...
> For me the honestly for real with facts answer is that *I enjoy watching Jackson hunt and kill.* Sorry if that offends...


Boom. Headshot.

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## zeion97

> Ok, I'm only going to say this one: shut up.
> 
> I was having a good discussion with a couple of members here, then you sprout up with this strawman. I never, ever stated that my opinion is better than any one else's. Why do I care? Because I'm a human being that dislikes pointless suffering in a controlled situation, and dislikes putting pets at risk.
> 
> If my sympathy for feeder animals and disdain to some of the reasons of live feeding offends you... or you think that somehow makes me self-righteous... then grow up. Really.
> 
> 
> 
> Never said anything? I've given you the quote as to why I called him an idiot. I don't care if he's friggen Einstein, that comment had a hint of malice about it. Converting f/t to live... _why_? What reason would you do this for? It makes zero sense and it was idiotic... sorry I didn't sugarcoat it for you.
> ...


Me take potshots, never. And please, keep it civil. You just don't like the fact unlike other people I call you out. I can't stand people who do what you're doing. You never stated your opinion is above ours yes, BUT you keep arguing trying to make our opinions look bad.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Now to you, I'm going to go feed my snakes some nice plump live rats.  :Razz: 

You can moan all you want, you can throw a hissy fit, but seriously, stop taking peoples post apart and grow up and accept it. I never stated I feed live for pleasure and I read this *ENTIRE* thread and saw no one do it either. You are the one using a "straw-man" defense as you like to call it. 

I accept the fact you don't like us using live, that's YOUR opinion, but don't preach to us about how it's bad. You're just resembling someone else.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Oh.. and I wouldn't say the conversation you've been having with everyone else was good.. Unless you call preaching good. But that's your opinion. As stated.. 

Oh yeah. I _KNOW_ you stated the quote Jerry made. *YOU* didn't read what I said, I said "he never said anything" You know, to defend himself. But you had to jump on that horse and start whipping it.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

So what? He converted a few to live. I converted 1 myself. Do I have sympathy? Of course not, why? Because I have 1 that eats F/T, so why should I keep him on it, when my rest eat live?

You can preach and preach all you want, but I don't *SUGARCOAT* either, You got your opinion, and I have mine. 

So like I said. Deal with it.  :Smile:  I mean seriously, it's not like 90% of the stuff you're saying hasn't been brought up in this thread already.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Homegrownscales

> What is so crazy about thawing mice and simply just giving them to your snake?


Gavin, again it's not just thawing mice out and giving it to a snake. Like I said if you took 65 rats and thawed them and placed them in each tub. 3 of my snakes would eat them like That. Then you'd take the other 62 snake and do the zombie dance and maybe 1/2 of those would actually eat like that. Then you'd take 30 thawed rats that are left over and trash them. Bc I wouldn't re freeze and go get 30 more live rats and THEN the other 30 snakes would eat. Would you find that acceptable. That those 30 rats died to not be rated and to feed my trash? I don't. I figure if they are going to give their lives well then they should be eaten. I'm not going to feed my trash. That's the craziness I'm talking about. Yes I have tried converting. When I had 10 snakes and it was feasible for me to have that and my schedule. Now I have some that are garbage disbosals and some that only eat live. That's why I breed my rodents bc EVERYONE will eat live. 





> If your time is so important to you than perhaps you should either get a couple of assistants to help you, or not keep so many reptiles? You say you watch them during the live feeding process... would that not take just as much time too? Have you even tried giving them f/t or just simply dumped in a live animal because you couldn't be bothered thawing them? Have you tried converting them? Of course it's going to take time and patience... you own many reptiles for heaven's sake. What happens if one of the animals gets in a bite and it's a deep one? What then? 2-4 hours is nothing on a per week basis, especially with so many pets that you are responsible for.


 I do have an assistant that comes to help me. But that's neither here nor there. And I certainly don't need to even entertain your other comment of what I have here at my home or not. And whether is a handlable number for myself. It is. I got it. Don't worry bout that. 
Watching them is very easy. I put a rat in and the snake strikes it. I generally don't even have to close the tub. I make sure the rat can't bite and isn't in an awkward position and I move to the next bin. Pretty much it rat- squeal- check- next bin. Easy. It's Just not feasible for me to feed everyone ft. Sorry you don't like that. 
If lets say a rat is caught in an weird position I have my hemostats right in my back pocket to prevent bites. 
Let's say it does happen and a bite one that I should be concerned about happens. I have the knowledge and medication on hand to treat it myself. If its something that needs vet attn. my reptile vet is on call and will come to my home. 
No 2-4 hours in a weekly basis is nothing. If I didn't already have a full time job, and another 10 hours of taking care of my animals bc I look at them as a full time job too. They're my Dayjob and I work nights as well. But you know I think your biased opinion is based on the fact that YOU Don't have a large collection to care for. And for some reason it's seems impossible for you to put yourself in other peoples shoes. 


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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_Jay_Bunny_ (01-13-2012),_satomi325_ (01-13-2012),_zeion97_ (01-12-2012)

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## RobNJ

> Boom. Headshot.


Hmmm...not really. So one person in this entire thread said they do it because they enjoy watching it. Take it up with them. Go hit the YouTube comment boards. As others have said, contributing to the discussion is fine and well...forcing the discussion tends to make people care less about what you have to say.

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## Homegrownscales

> Are you saying intent means nothing? No way, it means a hell of a lot. It is the crossing line between what is abject animal cruelty and what isn't..


I think intent means alot. If you are just throwing animals to other animals just to kill them yes that's an issue. If you snake needs to eat and you watch it and you happen to enjoy it no. The snake needs to eat. 




> If someone had the intention feeding live purely on the basis that they get their jollies out of it, then they should not be doing it. In fact... they should not even be owning pets if they enjoy causing and watching other animals suffer. Whether the same thing happens to the mouse or not isn't really the issue, it's if the person has malicious intent. And you're saying that doesn't matter because the mouse dies anyway??.


How is it malicious intent if the snake needs to eat. Look I doubt anyone on here is feeding live just to see the snake torture a mouse. And really the prey is dispatched rather quickly. And i also doubt the people on this site are the ones on YT making these snuff films as you call them. Yet though I look at it as nature. You must also not beleive in hunting. I don't like hunting for sport but I do beleive that if an animal is going to give its life that animal should be used for food. It's should Guve back life and purpose. That is the only reason I'm ok with folks having a head of a buck on their wall. My first question is always did you eat it?
The live and ft rats do this. They have purpose. 




> Sorry, but if people like to watch other animals in pain then they're being sadistic. I can't really explain this any more easier.


Ya If you like to watch animals in pain that's sadistic. Whom is saying they like that?




> I'd like to know what kind of parasite can survive the freezing process. The latter can easily be controlled - can you say the same for a live, unpredictable animal?


Tape worm eggs. Also if the prey isn't frozen right I'm sure other parasites can survive as well. But I've read more than 1 thread in this forum. Hint search tape worm. About members whom have only fed frozen some how have tape worms in their balls. 
What I can control is the size of the prey. Weanlings- what I feed- haven't really developed the aggressiveness as a jumbo. Weanlings and mediums are more curious than anything. They really have no idea what hits them. But like I said if they do get caught up the wrong way I Hve my hemostats right in my back pocket. Snakes are predators. They aren't stupid. But as a responsible person that cares about my collection I am very aware of what's going on during feedkn time. 




> Of course it makes it worse.
> 
> If you're killing them for pleasure, that indicates a malicious mindset. Wanting to cause pain to another animal and getting pleasure from it is far worse than not getting pleasure from it and being indifferent.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd recommend taking a look at the forum thread I linked. Those instances were not "days or weeks"... a mouse has sharp enough teeth to take out an eye. In an instant. It has happened before. Just because it never happened with you doesn't mean it never will, and doesn't mean it is not an unnecessary risk.
> 
> 
> ...





Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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## WingedWolfPsion

I think it's a huge mistake to claim that intent is what makes something cruel.  That's silly.
Intent is, and always has been, utterly irrelevant.  We do not live in a world where 'thought crimes' are valid.
If the animal suffers excessively, then it is cruel.  If it does not, then it's not cruel.  This isn't about what the human is thinking, it's about what the animal is feeling, and NOTHING else is important.

In a typical situation, the python will grab the animal, which causes a surge of adrenalin.  Adrenalin increases heart rate, and dulls pain reception, and dumps endorphins into the animal's system, making the grab less painful.  It will then constrict the animal tightly.  Within seconds, the rodent loses consciousness, and its ordeal is over.  This is a relatively humane way to dispatch a rodent.

I'm not sure where the idea comes that one good scare is a cruel thing.  We humans seek out scares deliberately, because they're addictive.  That's what amusement parks are all about.  It may not be pleasant, but it's not painful, and it's not cruel.  It is not an ongoing bout of fear, it's all over with very quickly.

A domesticated rodent placed into a snake bin shows some signs of anxiety and nervousness, but absolutely doesn't show signs of terror.  They simply don't have the experience or instincts to truly be frightened, which is why they often walk straight up to the snake and sniff its face.

Is this AS humane as CO2 euthanasia?  Probably not...usually, at least.  But it is not so horrible as to be considered cruel, either, at least not by me.  Honestly, if I were personally given the choice of these methods for my own death, I would choose death by snake.  Perhaps your choice would be different.

Occasionally, things don't go perfectly--that's true when slaughtering animals, as well.  We do the best we can.  In the end, the animal dies, and doesn't take an excessively long time to do so, either way.  Whether it's a good hit over with in seconds, or a bad one over with in a minute or two, it's still a short period of time.  For me, that's good enough.  I don't feel that feeding live is unecessarily cruel.

I also think that if you do not understand why humans identify with predators, and do not understand that humans absolutely do not control their own instincts, that you do not understand human behavior at all.  Your use of the example of rape is just absurd.  The vast majority of humans do not have any compulsion to commit such acts at all, and that is why they don't do it.  The fact that the term exists is enough to prove that the few who do are not controlling their instincts or compulsions.
When I watch a predator/prey interaction, I personally identify with the predator.  What the prey is feeling is simply not something that I consider at that moment.  I'm capable of it, sure, but it's not where my focus is.  
I don't dwell on the pain my food feels, or the pain my pets' food feels, because I don't see much point in doing so.  

While snakes are occasionally injured by rodents, the VAST majority of the time, this occurs when a rodent is left unattended with a snake, not when a rodent is introduced to a snake's cage, and removed a few minutes later if it hasn't been eaten.  So, I maintain, it's like forcing your dog to wear shoes, to worry about that rare incident where a snake might receive a bad bite from being fed live in a responsible fashion.  I have never had a snake injured that way.  I have had a few get a nick or scratch, but no worse than I've gotten myself while chopping vegetables.  I consider that an acceptable part of being alive.

I also find that the vast majority of my snakes have a stronger feeding response when fed live, which suggests they prefer it.  I actually take that into consideration.

On the other hand, if we move away from our reliable local supply of live rodents, I will go back to feeding mainly FT with live being given only to those snakes that won't accept it, because I don't like raising rodents, so prefer to raise as few as possible.

I know you're very attached to the idea that humans are different from other animals, but there is no evidence to suggest that it's true, and there's no reason why they should be held to unrealistic standards of conduct.  I'm also not sure how to explain to you what it means to have empathy for predatory behavior, if you can't grasp the idea, but rest assured, your inability to identify with predators is not the norm for human beings.

I have explained to you that rooting for the lion to take down the gazelle has absolutely nothing to do with wanting the gazelle to experience pain, or enjoying its suffering.  The reason people like to watch their snakes hunt live prey has nothing to do with sadism in the vast majority of cases.  if you do not understand how this can be so, then your empathy is terribly one-sided.

My opinion remains this:  It doesn't matter one bit to me, from an ethical standpoint, whether a rodent is killed by someone else, by me, or by my snakes.  I do my best to make sure their deaths are as humane as is practical, given that they are going to be eaten.  I personally feel that death is death, and a small moment of pain at the moment of death is no worse than a moment of pain at any other time.  (People routinely neuter cats and dogs, for example, which involves days of intense pain and weeks of aches, during recovery--it is a very unpleasant procedure for the animal, yet, oddly, we do not consider it cruel.  Since more pain is caused by this than by a snake constricting a rat, I consider feeding live to be perfectly fine).  I feel no guilt over this.

You are welcome to your opinion, but I do not think your argument is valid enough for me to change my opinion.  You're merely looking at it from a different perspective.  That's ok, but it doesn't make me wrong, and you right--or vice versa, for that matter.

Everyone has to set their own boundaries, and come to their own conclusions.

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_C&H Exotic Morphs_ (01-15-2012),Foschi Exotic Serpents (01-13-2012),_Jay_Bunny_ (01-13-2012),_RobNJ_ (01-12-2012),_zeion97_ (01-12-2012)

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## Homegrownscales

Very well said winged wolf


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Gavin.. Your arguments are getting ridiculous... Homegrownscales is absolutely right. There is at least one member here who has a ball that very recently got tapeworms from FT.

Many parasites can NOT be killed by freezing. Eggs can go dormant and can hatch when conditions are right again.  

In the last few years, we on here have seen countless photos and heard countless complaints of FT suppliers. Rodents coming in covered in feces, fleas, other parasites.. Smelling badly when thawed because they were allowed to sit dead for too long before freezing. They had begun to rot at the facility. Etc etc.. 

You have no clue how those rodents have been killed. Were they really gassed??? Because it's cheaper to just throw them all in a huge container in the freezer.. Do you think all these companies, who are in it to make $$, are going to tell you the truth about that? 

You also keep forgetting that we are talking about BPs here... 

You mentioned pet stores having all theirs on FT. Bull!! I promise you that petsmart and petco have maybe 1 out every 10-15 snakes that actually eats for them. Especially the balls. They usually never eat for them because those babies have either not yet been switched to FT, or they simply have not had their first meal yet and they don't want to take a dead rodent as their first meal. 

This is something we have talked about on here many times. We have members on here who work for these stores. They see these things and it bothers them. 

As for you saying 100's are injured by live feedings. That is also untrue. Where are these statistics? Many more are injured by being burned. Like was stated earlier, injuries happen if a rodent is left in a tank/tub/cage unattended, and usually for a long period of time. Bites during actual feeding are rare, and when they do happen, are minor. In the years I've been feeding live, I've never had a bite with one exception.. Back in 1996 a large rat bit a Burmese I had just bad enough to need some silver cream applied to it. Granted, that was when I decided to start feeding prekilled once the rats are weaned for most snakes, but I still have a couple picky eaters who require live. 

The truth is, almost all of us who breed our own rodents have rats as pets as well. We care for them as much as we do our reptiles, but we understand what we have to do for our reptiles. We do not agree with anyone who feeds live out of pleasure for causing harm or death to another animal. We here are not like that. 

If you begin breeding BPs and keeping them in large numbers, having to start new hatchlings, assist feeds on late starters, deal with the changing feeding habits of breeding adults, etc etc... And you insist on adhering to a F/T only rule, it won't be long before you get frustrated with BPs, get rid of them all, and get into boa's, carpet's, burm's, or something else that will agree with you 100% of the time..

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_RobNJ_ (01-13-2012),_zeion97_ (01-13-2012)

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## Gavin

I will reply to the rest of it later, as I have some work to do, but this stood out like a sore thumb:




> I think it's a huge mistake to claim that intent is what makes something cruel. That's silly.
> Intent is, and always has been, utterly irrelevant. We do not live in a world where 'thought crimes' are valid.


Intent has never been irrelevant. It is the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.

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## Jay_Bunny

> I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?
> 
> Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets. Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.
> ...


I feed live feeders to my ferrets as well. It works the same way as you do for snakes. 

A - do not feed a feeder that is too large for the ferret. For this reason I do not feed anything larger than a mouse and I certainly do not feed live adult hamsters or asf as these animals are known to be a bit more aggressive. 

B - make sure you ferret has the ability to hunt down, dispatch, and eat their prey animal. From the time I put my ferret Twitch into the tub for hunting, it takes her less than 5 seconds to hunt down the mouse and dispatch it. She is quick, efficient and she loves it. The feeder does not suffer. I do not allow my boy ferrets to hunt live prey because they do not have the high prey drive that Twitch does and they would not make quick work of hunting the animal down. I feel the animal would suffer if I allowed the boys to hunt. 

I am responsible and knowledgable about ferrets and their feeding. I did a lot of research, talked with a lot of people, and consulted my veterinarian. Currently my ferrets are on a raw diet (raw meat/bones/organs) with one or two whole prey items thrown in during the week. Over the next few months I hope to convert them 100% over to a whole prey diet (rats, mice, hamsters, gerbils, quail, chicks, rabbits, etc). 

I am NOT one of those people that film my ferrets or snakes taking down live prey for entertainment value. If I ever film my animals consuming anything it is for educational purposes only (as I hope to mentor others to switching their ferrets, cats, and dogs to a raw/whole prey diet). 

People are not "sickos" for feeding live to a snake. You think the rat suffers? Try watching a video on how your hamburger is made, and you tell me which animal suffers more.

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_satomi325_ (01-13-2012)

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## Jay_Bunny

> You mentioned pet stores having all theirs on FT. Bull!! I promise you that petsmart and petco have maybe 1 out every 10-15 snakes that actually eats for them. Especially the balls. They usually never eat for them because those babies have either not yet been switched to FT, or they simply have not had their first meal yet and they don't want to take a dead rodent as their first meal. 
> 
> This is something we have talked about on here many times. We have members on here who work for these stores. They see these things and it bothers them.


I can vouch for this. I worked at a Petsmart and if you look up my old threads regarding a few of my experiences working there you'll see. I had to bring a corn snake baby back from the brink of starvation. At several months old, this snake weighed only 4g. I was not allowed (by company policy) to feed it live, so I had to stress this snake out by tube feeding it and assist feeding it for months before it finally began eating f/t on its own. Also 75% or more of the ball pythons that came into the store did not accept f/t and a few under my care had to be assist fed because they began to lose a lot of weight.

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Foschi Exotic Serpents (01-13-2012),_zeion97_ (01-13-2012)

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## Homegrownscales

> I will reply to the rest of it later, as I have some work to do, but this stood out like a sore thumb:
> 
> Intent has never been irrelevant. It is the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.


 Gavin.... We really aren't discussing
 people torturing animals. Nor are we discussing manslaughter and murder.   No one on here is malicious or hateful towards animals. No one is feeding live with the intent to torture or maim the prey. We all care very much for the animals we have as well as any that are in our care, such as feeder animals. I feel this representation has no ground  in this conversation. If we were talking about people killing animals for pleasure or people killing people.... Then it makes sense. 
What this discussion is about is, the difference between live prey and ft prey. Ball pythons along with many other reptiles don't have the intent to torture an animal. They don't have that capability. They are either hungry or not. Just because someone enjoys watching their pet eat/ feeds live out of convenience etc.  doesn't mean their intent was to cause pain to either animal. Feeding a snake is no where near a :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: fight or a dog fight even if it's live prey. The snakes don't toy with the prey. The prey isn't automatically freaked out and convulsing in fear. The death is humane, quick and 99% of the time causes no damage to the snake. Yes there are some minor instances where issues can happen but like another member said its no different than us getting a nick or scratch in our daily lives. Yes people can have worse problems. But every single instance of those worse issues was due to keeper error. Prey to large, not watching, leaving prey In tubs or tanks. Etc. Just like if you didn't use ft correctly you can have issues. Obviously the same is correct for live. 



Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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_satomi325_ (01-13-2012),_zeion97_ (01-13-2012)

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## Skittles1101

I see this thread keep popping up. I have no time to read all of the replies, however, it sure is getting heated! I must say I'm offended (not literally, but for argument's sake) that some people are saying that people who feed live are heartless, or enjoy watching the prey die, or whatever the argument has been.

I don't have a choice but to feed like to a minimum of one of my snakes. I've tried every single f/t prey item in every single manner and she wants NOTHING to do with it. Live mice, that's all she'll take. I take life very seriously, whether it be a spider, mouse, or human, and I think it's ridiculous to say that people who feed live don't give a crap about their animals. I for one, love my animals, sometimes a little too much. I cried like a girl when my first tarantula died. I pet and talk to every mouse I have to feed off to give it a few good minutes because it serves it's purpose. I have two pet rats! Do I enjoy feeding live? Absolutely not, I'd throw f/t at my snakes any chance I get, but not everyone has that choice.

OP, I simply prefer f/t simply because it's cheaper for me and easier to keep in bulk. I work more than full time, full time mom, and go to school part time. I have over 30 animals I have to care for, I literally don't have the time to breed my own and take care of my own mice or rats. F/t is simply more convenient. However, I do feed live to two of my balls currently. I do what I have to for my pets, and they only want live, so they get live. Period. I supervise every feeding as to avoid injury and have yet to have an issue, other than feeling bad for the mouse.

As I learned more about snakes and the people who keep them, the more comfortable I got about live feeders. I have respect for both sides, and respect their opinions and choices. It's sad that not everyone can think that way. I blame ignorance.

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_zeion97_ (01-13-2012)

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## satomi325

> What?
> 
> Putting a live mammal in the freezer is not humane in the slightest, whoever is doing that is possibly breaking the law. No respectable vet, breeder, snake enthusiast or otherwise would even do or entertain the thought of such a thing. I don't know where you're getting this information from.
> 
> Cervical dislocation and CO2 are the methods used which are approved by vets and animal laboratories the world over. Whoever chucks them alive in a freezer is just committing animal cruelty.


If you think putting a live mammal into a freezer is not humane, but constriction is, then perhaps you're the one who is cruel.... An animal can take hours to finally die of the cold. Being cold is not comfortable in anyway. It's even painful if it gets too cold or left too long. If you stick your hand in a bag of ice, I can assure you, your hand will start hurting. Death by constriction occurs in a matter of minutes. How can you compare that to death in a freezer, which can take hours?

Also C02 is NOT painless. I work in a laboratory. Hundreds and thousands of Rats and mice are euthanized by CO2 daily. I've seen the light leave the eyes of these animals. Their bright red eyes turn to a dull brown. It's not pleasant. Not at all. Lab rodents are naturally very calm and used to human presence. That is why they are used for lab work. The moment they're put it the CO2 chamber, they panic and act frightened. If you were suffocating, would it be painless? No. If feels like drowning. It's not like CO where, you just fall asleep and die. CO2 is a fast working process that is the most humane for euthanasia. That is why it is approved. Most humane doesn't mean painless. It just means compared to other methods of death, this emits the least suffering.

Most vets don't preform euthanasia with CO2. Maybe if its a poor animal shelter....But most vets do a drug overdosing w/ a intravenous injection. These injections renders an animal unconscious, then the heart goes into cardiac/respiratory arrest.




> I have no problem with people feeding live rodents to their snakes, as long as it's done respectfully and the snake can't take a dead animal. What I do have a problem with though, is people feeding live to their snakes simply because it's "cool" or enjoy watching things die. I don't know what you folks think about people posting live feeding videos on YT, but most of the time it is done maliciously - not for the snake's benefit, but to put the feeder through unnecessary pain. Like as if it were a snuff film.


Ok. I have a few things to address. I'm sure most people don't have pleasure or enjoy watching their rats die. Most people here just put a rat in a tub and move onto another, then come back a few minutes later to check up on the snake to see if it ate. You keep saying that snakes get hurt easily. Those injured snakes probably have irresponsible owners. I feed small and more frequent, than large and less often. So instead of feeding a medium rat every 2 weeks, I feed 2 weanlings/1small small rat twice a week. No harm done to the snake. 

Snakes eat live in the wild. I don't see what's so bad with feeding live in captivity. Just because they're captive doesn't mean they're not wild. They're still wild animals, just tame. There's a difference between domestic, wild, tame, feral, etc etc....
Yes there is a risk. But I believe many of us who truly love our animals will know how to avoid or deal with those risks.(i.e feeding smaller and more frequent, than larger prey and less often) As others have said, there are risks with F/T food as well. (And parasite eggs can lay dormant and hatch during the appropriate conditions. So parasites can stem from frozen food. (That's why it's required to cook frozen meat, isn't it?) And as others have stated, if somebody enjoys watching their snake eat live, what does that have to do w/ the actual animal eating? It's not unnatural. The snake is going to eat regardless if the rat is alive or dead. I don't think a lot of people enjoy seeing a rat suffer, however, it's just interesting to see the process of how a snake eats. People don't dislocate their jaws to swallow food bigger than their heads. So it's a unique thing to observe...

Also, eating live happens out in nature. A wild snake isn't going to come across a frozen thawed rat doing the zombie dance. And just because a snake is in captivity doesn't mean everyone should automatically feed f/t. Personally, mine won't eat f/t. But even if they did, I probably would keep feeding live. If f/t works for you, then thats good. But it may not work for others and their lifestyle....The forum is to share ideas, suggestions, and experiences....But no need to start preaching and pushing your ideals on others. 


Note: big breeders don't feed f/t. They'll still feed live even though they have many staff and employees who do the feeding...So I don't understand your argument to get more staff....




> Since when does a ferret need live food? And where did you get that 120% from? Made that up did you?


And regarding my ferrets. Yes I threw out 120% out randomly to make a significant point. I'm an animal biologist exotic pre-vet. I've been studying Ferret biology for a long time. Feeding whole prey IS FACTUALLY MORE HEALTHY THAN COMMERCIAL KIBBLE, which is what the majority of America feed's their ferrets. 

Ferrets are *obligate* carnivores, which means they are meant to eat meat -- just meat. Ferrets are not designed to digest grains,  fruit, vegetable, or sugars, or fillers such as corn. Grains, fruit, vegetable, sugars, & corn can lead to Insulinoma, one of the most common ferret diseases. Many kibble ingredients are not suitable for ferrets as they contain many of these ingredients. Kibble food also only has between 10-50% protein. How is that sufficient for a ferret when they are *obligate* carnivores!??! Ferrets in the UK are less prone to diseases found in US ferrets because many people feed whole prey in Europe.

the only nonmeat items ferrets may encounter in their diet would be in the stomach and intestinal tract of their prey, where it is partially digested.  Ferrets have a very short GI tract unlike animals that eat more vegetation. 

Whole prey provides natural dental care when the ferret gnaws the bones. Many owners report that their whole-prey-fed ferrets have healthier fur, more energy and fewer odors than those who eat processed ferret food. I can vouch for this personally as well

Please read this for further information.
If you need to to cite more sources, just let me know.


 [/QUOTE]



> Rats can be quite dangerous to ferrets when cornered. Live feeding a ferret is just irresponsible and cruel... it's just not necessary, they do not need live animals in their diets.




Have you read the whole thread??? I've posted a few times, and one of my posts stated that I feed my ferrets *adult mice and weanling rats*. So definitely no damage to my ferrets and it's a quick one hit kill to the feeders w/ minimum suffering. Why would I be irresponsible to either animals (rats and ferrets) and put them at risk to injury or unnecessary suffering??? Please read before spouting off something you don't know anything about.




> Don't give me this "enrichment" BS either, you can use a dead mouse, tie it to a string and make a game out of that. Or use toys made for ferrets. Or use your hand to wrestle/tickle them - there's your enrichment.
> 
> I've seen people on YT put mice in bathtubs, call that "hunting" while they're either giggling about it in the background, putting rock music in the background, calling it an "epic battle" etc. IMO, most people feed live to ferrets just to watch their animal kill something. It's a power thing.


Ferrets are bred to kill vermin and chase rabbits. As a domestic animal, it is their working purpose. 

How do you know that I haven't tried tying a mouse on a string to coax interest????You don't know. Well, I have, and my ferrets know the difference. They show *ZERO* interest in pre-killed prey. Ferrets are not scavengers by nature. Most animals who come across a corpse will not want to associate with it as it could have died from disease, etc etc.

Do you own ferrets? If yes, then I'm sure you will know that they have a short attention span. Serious ADD. They get tired of the same toys and games, as people do. I have a play room dedicated to my ferrets and even they get bored w/ the many toys they have. Providing live-whole prey gives them enrichment to practice what they were bred for. They're always eager to for a live mouse or rat. It stimulates their interest and physical body.

I too have seen 'bathtub hunting' on youtube. Well, you shouldn't judge everyone based on those videos. Everyone has different methods to give their ferrets live prey. 

I for one am not feeding my ferrets live prey for 'power' or because I enjoy it. I breed my own feeders. They live like pets in my bedroom.  I give them play time out of their cage for their own enrichment. I feed my ferrets live whole prey because IT IS HEALTHIER! I don't plan on spending hundreds and thousands of dollars in vet bills because my ferrets won't get Insulinoma.

Overall, you don't know anything about me or anybody from this thread outside of our word from this forum. So please don't judge, you many be wrong in your assumptions....

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drama x (01-13-2012),_Jay_Bunny_ (01-14-2012),_zeion97_ (01-13-2012)

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## zeion97

Very nicely said satomi325.  :Smile:

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_satomi325_ (01-13-2012)

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## satomi325

Apologies for the few grammar/missing words in my previous post. My mind was going to fast...





> If you think putting a live mammal into a freezer is not humane, but constriction is, then perhaps you're the one who is cruel.... An animal can take hours to finally die of the cold. Being cold is not comfortable in anyway. It's even painful if it gets too cold or left too long. If you stick your hand in a bag of ice, I can assure you, your hand will start hurting. Death by constriction occurs in a matter of minutes. How can you compare that to death in a freezer, which can take hours?


Sorry, that was meant for whoever said freezing was ok... I misread Gavin's response. My mistake.

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