# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Just a thought....................

## PitOnTheProwl

Most that breed have no use for normal males and to be honest the normal females are almost as worthless.
My question is: How many more years will it be before a normals price sky rockets in value??
At some point some of these powerhouses that are being produced will need to be broken down to prove whats in them, right?
I know there are already multiple gene snakes out there that you cannot tell exactly whats in them anymore. 
Just food for thought LoL

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## fishdip

Id say never. If not a very long time ever pet store that has snakes I see more normal then I do mix. now once you can get a Banana Pastel Ball Python for 25.00-50.00 then you may see a drop in them

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## The Flying Henry

Right...LOL...look what happened to the corn snake!

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## Pythonfriend

i dont think it will happen.

there is a very large wild population in africa, and there are breeding farms in africa that are connected to the wild population, and tens of thousands of normal wild-type hatchlings are being exported to places all around the planet. i dont see how that could change, they sell them for maybe 5 dollars per hatchling and are able to put together shipments of thousands of normal hatchlings. so the african exporters have a strong position in the market, and normal BPs with african wild-type genetics are their product. often they could not switch to morphs even if they wanted, because the semi-captive breeding population intermingles with the wild population and which BP mates with which isnt in human control. 

so i think normals will always be available in large quantities and at low prices. the guys in africa are professional and reliable and have the best prices, and they supply big pet store chains around the world. unless breeders outside africa manage to put together shipments of 2000 morph BPs at a time at ridiculously low prices, the normals out of africa will simply maintain their prime position in the market.

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## brock lesser

I think you may be on to something, it may not happen for a few years, but what if the feds outlaw importation of exotic animals?
The pet shops will be buying at least 70% of the normal bp's produced here and then you would see a price increase. 
If you can't see the feds banning importation,  you haven't been looking! 
I'm holding some normal girls back!

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## MarkS

My opinion is that any normal ball with all the fuss it takes to get them feeding and established should go for anywhere between 50-100 bucks for hatchlings. But as long as you have cheap imports it's never going to happen.

But then of course you'll have all those SCUMBAGS and MARKET CRASHERS destroying the price on normals, MY GOD WHEN WILL THE MADNESS END??????    :Surprised:  :Rolleyes2:  :Eyepopping:  :Frustrated: 

(sorry, for a minute there I thought I was on another forum...   :Very Happy: )

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PitOnTheProwl (01-13-2014),_SnowShredder_ (01-14-2014)

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## stickyalvinroll

There's a possibility to get normals in every clutch. "just food for thought". LOL

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## brock lesser

> Most that breed have no use for normal males and to be honest the normal females are almost as worthless.


I'm sure your not saying the animals are worthless,
I wouldn't want a member reading your post thinking they spent their hard earned money on a "worthless " animal
Normals are the start for most of us and for that reason they have value.
Your opinions and status are respected here so please clarify what you meant.

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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (01-15-2014),btrobag (01-18-2014),_Mr. Misha_ (01-13-2014),_sorraia_ (01-14-2014)

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## Kodieh

I guess this would happen if every breeder who hit on normals, euthanized them right out of the egg. No one would have them.

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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (01-15-2014)

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## PitOnTheProwl

> There's a possibility to get normals in every clutch. "just food for thought". LOL


Think again.............. I will make it as simple as it could be Super Pastel X Normal = no normal  :Wink: 




> I'm sure your not saying the animals are worthless,
> I wouldn't want a member reading your post thinking they spent their hard earned money on a "worthless " animal
> Normals are the start for most of us and for that reason they have value.
> Your opinions and status are respected here so please clarify what you meant.


Might want to look at that sentence again ........... show me a breeder that wants to holdback any of his normal males unless it might have something funky going on.

- - - Updated - - -




> I guess this would happen if every breeder who hit on normals, euthanized them right out of the egg. No one would have them.


I know people that feed them off to their kings, usually only if it has something wrong with it but still the same.

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_JMinILM_ (01-18-2014),_Kodieh_ (01-13-2014)

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## Gerardo

I thought you get half normals half pastels.

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## Gerardo

I think there should be a place where people can send their normals and then those people give them away to people who just want a pet or a kid who is getting a first snake or something like that.

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INKjitsu (01-16-2014)

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## fishdip

Plus look at all the snakes need to make something out of snake skin and I have only seen normal bp skin used for this.

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## brock lesser

> Think again.............. I will make it as simple as it could be Super Pastel X Normal = no normal 
> 
> 
> 
> Might want to look at that sentence again ........... show me a breeder that wants to holdback any of his normal males unless it might have something funky going on.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


I caught your meaning just wanted it clear to everyone .
As a breeder no I won't be holding back any normals but I will sell them and sales = value.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> I caught your meaning just wanted it clear to everyone .
> As a breeder no I won't be holding back any normals but I will sell them and sales = value.


I understand yours too but I'm not going to sugar coat it either. I wholesale mine out for next to nothing, it costs me more to get them up to my 100g weight limit before I let them go.

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_brock lesser_ (01-14-2014)

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## rascal_rascal_99

> There's a possibility to get normals in every clutch. "just food for thought". LOL


Really? I have a superblast, killer bee, sterling, super pastel butter, silver bullet and killer queen bee...if any of those animals ever are involved in a pairing that produces a normal I'm going to be a combination of amazed and pissed, and you can bet I'm going to be making the breeders phone ring very quickly that I got each animal from. Same goes for any of my hypo x hypo pairings, those clutches better never produce a normal either.

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_brock lesser_ (01-14-2014)

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## led-zep

> There's a possibility to get normals in every clutch. "just food for thought". LOL


Not EVERY clutch. A recessive like say a ghost bred to another ghost will lay all ghost. Hets dont count. 

Later


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## Mr. Misha

> Show me a breeder that wants to holdback any of his normal males unless it might have something funky going on.


You make it seem like people should throw their normals in the trash just because they're not making money off of them. That's pretty disgusting. 

I had a breeder told me at a reptile show that I should buy a couple normals to breed on my first run so if I screw up, I wouldn't feel bad. What's wrong with you people? I'd feel equally bad if I kill a forty dollar snake or a four hundred dollar snake.




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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (01-15-2014),_brock lesser_ (01-14-2014),_sorraia_ (01-14-2014),ViperSRT3g (01-16-2014)

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## ratfink721

i have to agree. my first was a normal. i still have her. im not quite as far into breeding yet as some of you are. but i have a fire, pinstripe, and a spider. ill get rid of all of them before id even think of getting rid of my normal.

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btrobag (01-18-2014)

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## ratfink721

i am new to breeding BPs. i was wondering if i bred my fire male to my normal female. would there be a chance of me getting some fire females out of the clutch?

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## SnowShredder

I don't see it ever happening. Normals are almost always a by-product of almost any breeding (except supers). They will never be close to eliminated

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## steve_r34

> i am new to breeding BPs. i was wondering if i bred my fire male to my normal female. would there be a chance of me getting some fire females out of the clutch?


u should get half and half ... as far as gender could be male or female ...


as far as the topic .. if it wasnt for norms i would of never got into bp's .. i just remeber being little and always seeing bp's in the pet shop and being amazed and they were just norms ..so im always gonna have love for them .. but yea if ur producing so many clutchs a years and get stuck with so many norms its gotta be a pain .. but its part of the game

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## Pythonfriend

normals have some immaterial value in that every healthy BP deserves the same kind of respect and care, and every healthy BP has he potential to be a really great pet that people can become really attached to. in that sense they are all valuable, morph or not.


but when talking about MONETARY value, its still correct to say that they are worth next to nothing. so when some people say things like "normals are worthless" or "try breeding normals first, that way you wont lose much when it doesnt work out", and other people get upset, maybe its just a misunderstanding? 

and to say that for breeding, normals are worthless, is also quite correct. it may sound rude, but that doesnt make it untrue. the thing is that for normals, big exporters in Ghana or Benin pretty much set the global market price. and that price is just too low for any breeder that requires heat tape and thermostats and incubators and who has to pay employees 15 dollars per hour to compete with. you need to sell combos and morphs at premium prices in order to break even. depending on how efficient a breeder oprates, every normal hatched may imply an immediate financial loss, so they try their best to avoid it by breeding morph combo to morph combo.

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_Bluebonnet Herp_ (01-15-2014),_brock lesser_ (01-14-2014)

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## ROACH

> i am new to breeding BPs. i was wondering if i bred my fire male to my normal female. would there be a chance of me getting some fire females out of the clutch?


Yes. you would get 1/2 Normals and 1/2 Fire. Now as for sex of the babies, that would just be a dice roll, no telling what you would get.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> You make it seem like people should throw their normals in the trash just because they're not making money off of them. That's pretty disgusting. 
> 
> I had a breeder told me at a reptile show that I should buy a couple normals to breed on my first run so if I screw up, I wouldn't feel bad. What's wrong with you people? I'd feel equally bad if I kill a forty dollar snake or a four hundred dollar snake.


I love entertaining comments like this that seem to not understand my original post. :ROFL:  :ROFL: 
As much as you think you love your normals (don't twist what I type because I have my share of normal that I wont let go of either) you also need to step away from you hobby choice and look at it from a business point of view. I love breeding, raising up little ones costs the same regardless if its a normal or a ?? morph. Whats the smart choice?

Why is it so hard for people to look from another point of view, society in general is so self-centered but that's for a different post.
Now back on topic. Which was at what point do you think their value will increase?

I posted this just for fun because I know at some point with the amount of multi gene snakes, there is going to be a point where someone will want to prove exactly whats in it. Especially with some of the genes that are so subtle or my favorite with all the "new" claims that just plain look like another morph that already exists.

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Badgemash (01-15-2014),led-zep (01-14-2014),_whispersinmyhead_ (01-17-2014)

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## steve_r34

dam pitt idk .. my opion they will never go up .. way to many of them

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## Pythonfriend

> I posted this just for fun because I know at some point with the amount of multi gene snakes, there is going to be a point where someone will want to prove exactly whats in it. Especially with some of the genes that are so subtle or my favorite with all the "new" claims that just plain look like another morph that already exists.


thats true, and some breeders hang on to a few normals just for that reason. and some breeders like to sometimes add some fresh african genetics to keep the gene pool healthy. but even then, something like 5% normals in the collection should be enough for that. 

but if the need arises to prove something out because the genetics are getting too complicated, you could always use something like a super mojave or super pastel to prove it out. or, even better, just breed it to a recessive like an albino or hypo or clown or something, that allows you to sort out the genetics, but as a bonus they will all be 100% het.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> but if the need arises to prove something out because the genetics are getting too complicated, you could always use something like a super mojave or super pastel to prove it out. or, even better, just breed it to a recessive like an albino or hypo or clown or something, that allows you to sort out the genetics, but as a bonus they will all be 100% het.


Well kick me in the butt LoL
I honestly never had that thought run through my head. 
I think you just made the normal breeding value go down more now.  :ROFL:  :ROFL:  :ROFL: 
All honestly though, This would be the smarter move.

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## CD CONSTRICTORS

I don't think you will see the price of Normals move at all. Supply and demand dictates the price. They are a huge pet trade. Heck, my first bp was a 1.0 Normal. I still have him. He's 2 years old and a whopping 500g.

My 0.6 Normals are invaluable. I acquired all of them as adults by trade, or paid no more than $100. Throw a double or triple at them and sit back.
 I do not hold back Normal females..... it costs more to raise them for 2 years than to just buy adults. I wholesale all my Normal hatchlings for $15. 

I know breeders who hold Normal hatchlings for shows by the dozen and sell them out of a 10 gallon tank. They pay the hotel/food bills.

My best advice to anyone starting out is to buy 10 Normal females or maybe even 10 Pastel females for a bit more and raise them up as breeders. 0.1 Pastels can easily be had for $50 each as hatchlings and go for $400+ as adults. You will never see that with Normals and you get the extra Pastel gene for $25 more than a Normal. I do not ever see replacing my 0.6 Normals or 0.6 Pastels when I know they will bring me good eggs.

Basically what I am saying is.... yes, Normals are valuable in breeding, but I don't think their price will budge at all, UNLESS importing restrictions have an impact on the supply from Africa.

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*bcr229* (01-14-2014),PitOnTheProwl (01-14-2014),_STjepkes_ (01-20-2014)

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## PitOnTheProwl

> I do not ever see replacing my 0.6 Normals or 0.6 Pastels when I know they will bring me good eggs.


Quick spin to jack my own thread because I can................................
Good eggs is the key as well as larger clutches.
Would you still keep the 3 or 4 egger??

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## CD CONSTRICTORS

> Quick spin to jack my own thread because I can................................
> Good eggs is the key as well as larger clutches.
> Would you still keep the 3 or 4 egger??


"Good eggs" was meant to be as in healthy and a "decent" quantity. 3-4 eggs for a first or second year girl and I would still keep her. If she has given me 8-10 eggs in prior years and she is now down to 3-4 that would be a tough call. 3-4 eggs is better than none when I have the room and I'm looking for a certain morph in return.... ie- I have a 1.0 Sugar Fire, and I want a 0.1 Sugar Fire, 0.1 Sugar Pastel or 1.0/0.1 Sugar Firefly.

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## Mr. Misha

> I love entertaining comments like this that seem to not understand my original post.
> As much as you think you love your normals (don't twist what I type because I have my share of normal that I wont let go of either) you also need to step away from you hobby choice and look at it from a business point of view. I love breeding, raising up little ones costs the same regardless if its a normal or a ?? morph. Whats the smart choice?


You just wrote the magic words. This is a HOBBY for me as well as most small breeders and probably yourself. I don't rely on breeding to pay my bills. My first reason for breeding would be to have fun not to strike rich. I think you're in the wrong hobby to make money.

If you want me to look at breeding from a business point of view then I'd tell you it's not a good business to be in period. If all you care about is making money, there's plenty of things you can do that will make a lot more money a lot faster than breeding ever will. So please don't talk to me about smart choices. 

So at the end of the day, unless you're the select few who actually depend on breeding to pay their bills, you shouldn't be talking about how uselss certain animals are. Maybe you should reconsider your hobby/business choices and go into something that doesn't deal with useless animals. 

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_brock lesser_ (01-14-2014),btrobag (01-18-2014)

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## dgring

Normals in my opinion will not go up in value, but that does not mean they are not good as pets or for proving out genes

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## Uncle Festae

I'm not even going to comment on the rest of the stuff being thrown around here, but I just wanted to point out that it is never NECESSARY to use a normal with the goal of figuring out what genetics a certain animal carries. The same result can be achieved just as easily using recessive animals in place of normals.

For example: In the spring/summer I have the chance at producing some HG Woma combos with as many as 8-9 genes in a single animal. If I REALLY need to know exactly whats in some of them, I'll breed them to Hypo, Clown, Lav, etc. 

Carry on with the other stuff LOL

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## brock lesser

> thats true, and some breeders hang on to a few normals just for that reason. and some breeders like to sometimes add some fresh african genetics to keep the gene pool healthy. but even then, something like 5% normals in the collection should be enough for that. 
> 
> but if the need arises to prove something out because the genetics are getting too complicated, you could always use something like a super mojave or super pastel to prove it out. or, even better, just breed it to a recessive like an albino or hypo or clown or something, that allows you to sort out the genetics, but as a bonus they will all be 100% het.


You can't always do that, say you are trying to prove out a new morph or one that looks normal, a special comes to mind.
Some hets alter the appearance of the animals, only by breading to a normal will the genes be clean.

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## Pythonfriend

> You just wrote the magic words. This is a HOBBY for me as well as most small breeders and probably yourself. I don't rely on breeding to pay my bills. My first reason for breeding would be to have fun not to strike rich. I think you're in the wrong hobby to make money.
> 
> If you want me to look at breeding from a business point of view then I'd tell you it's not a good business to be in period. If all you care about is making money, there's plenty of things you can do that will make a lot more money a lot faster than breeding ever will. So please don't talk to me about smart choices. 
> 
> So at the end of the day, unless you're the select few who actually depend on breeding to pay their bills, you shouldn't be talking about how uselss certain animals are. Maybe you should reconsider your hobby/business choices and go into something that doesn't deal with useless animals.


even if you do it purely as a hobby, wouldnt you want to get somewhere? hatch something new? hit your dream combo? hit new combinations? ramp up the gene count and the genetic quality of your collection? maybe hit some double recessives or combos involving super forms? maybe even aim for a world first? well, normals will not help with any of this. if you want anything other than copies of more of the same, or if you want a super form, or a visual recessive, both parents need to contribute. even hobby breeders have ambitions and goals. and generally normals are of no help in reaching these goals, they just enable you to cheaply drive up your egg count. 

why should people reconsider their hobby/business choices, just because they have goals and ambitions and normals are useless (there, i said it, useless) for getting closer to these goals?

if a hobby breeder has the goal of working with combinations involving super enchi, or piebald, its just a fact that normals will be utterly useless for that. that doesnt mean that this hypothetical hobby breeder has anything against normals and people that use them, its just a fact that nothing involving super enchi and no pied can be produced with any pairing involving a normal. so dont be so damn judgmental. i dont see why you would ask such a person to reconsider breeding altogether.

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Badgemash (01-15-2014),PitOnTheProwl (01-15-2014)

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## brock lesser

> I'm not even going to comment on the rest of the stuff being thrown around here, but I just wanted to point out that it is never NECESSARY to use a normal with the goal of figuring out what genetics a certain animal carries. The same result can be achieved just as easily using recessive animals in place of normals.
> 
> For example: In the spring/summer I have the chance at producing some HG Woma combos with as many as 8-9 genes in a single animal. If I REALLY need to know exactly whats in some of them, I'll breed them to Hypo, Clown, Lav, etc. 
> 
> Carry on with the other stuff LOL


What is being thrown around is good honest debate and the expression of everyones opinion, thats a good thing.
I don't mind all the threads where everyone says how nice your new animals look, but give me a thread with some " meat " and I'm in! 
I believe it's been civil and fun.

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## Mr. Misha

> even if you do it purely as a hobby, wouldnt you want to get somewhere? hatch something new? hit your dream combo? hit new combinations? ramp up the gene count and the genetic quality of your collection? maybe hit some double recessives or combos involving super forms? maybe even aim for a world first? well, normals will not help with any of this. if you want anything other than copies of more of the same, or if you want a super form, or a visual recessive, both parents need to contribute. even hobby breeders have ambitions and goals. and generally normals are of no help in reaching these goals, they just enable you to cheaply drive up your egg count. 
> 
> why should people reconsider their hobby/business choices, just because they have goals and ambitions and normals are useless (there, i said it, useless) for getting closer to these goals?
> 
> if a hobby breeder has the goal of working with combinations involving super enchi, or piebald, its just a fact that normals will be utterly useless for that. that doesnt mean that this hypothetical hobby breeder has anything against normals and people that use them, its just a fact that nothing involving super enchi and no pied can be produced with any pairing involving a normal. so dont be so damn judgmental. i dont see why you would ask such a person to reconsider breeding altogether.


This has nothing to do with breeding projects. Read the post before you reply. 

I'd love to produce cool morphs but I'm not going to use regular BPs I produce as feeders as someone on this thread suggested. And your "useless" normals are the ones that get people involved in this hobby. I think most people here started with a normal including myself. 


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## h20hunter

I don't think you will ever see normals go up that high in price for exactly the reasons you mentioned about the market being steadily supplies. The big breeders as well as the hobby breeders have to make up such a small percentage of ownership that there will always be a market for beginner snakes such as your garden variety bp. However, I do believe that with the increase in morphs and the extent that they are being combined it won't be very long until you can get what is now considered a rare expensive morph for very little in comparison.

Also, I believe without the normals there is no market for higher end snakes. You have to begin somewhere and that is typically at the beginning. You don't go out and buy a Lexus for your first car. You start out with the Camry.

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_brock lesser_ (01-14-2014)

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## CD CONSTRICTORS

I use my Normals a lot to hopefully get a female back of the same male morph I am breeding her to. Sugar Fire and Enchi Fire are two examples for me this year. I have other males I would love to put with a 0.1 Sugar Fire or 0.1 Enchi Fire.... like a Nuclear, Enchi Pastel, Banana, etc....

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## MrLang

I don't think they'll go up. There will always be people breeding their pastel male to normal female. 

I'm not sure why there is so much offense being taken to the word useless. He is talking about the dollar value of the animal over the cost of keeping it alive. He is not talking about how you should just pick them up, throw them at the garbage can or let your cat play with it. Nobody is downplaying the value of life. We're on a website dedicated to these animals - we all signed up here because we agree they're all cool, including normal males. It's pretty obviously a discussion about return on investment. Chill out.

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Badgemash (01-15-2014),_BHReptiles_ (01-15-2014),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (01-16-2014),_brock lesser_ (01-14-2014),MarkS (01-14-2014),PitOnTheProwl (01-15-2014),_satomi325_ (01-14-2014),_STjepkes_ (01-20-2014)

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## Pythonfriend

> This has nothing to do with breeding projects. Read the post before you reply. 
> 
> I'd love to produce cool morphs but I'm not going to use regular BPs I produce as feeders as someone on this thread suggested. And your "useless" normals are the ones that get people involved in this hobby. I think most people here started with a normal including myself.


oh ok, maybe its a misunderstanding then. as i said earlier, all BPs deserve the same respect, no matter the monetary value or genetics. 

people that hatch normals and have no use for them should still treat them with respect, get them well-started, and sell them. even if they dont make money doing it. you can see them as useless for your further breeding plans, and still treat them with respect. when you produce new life, taking good care of it is part of the responsibility. here i agree, a BP doesnt deserve less respect just because it didnt get the right chromosomes.

sure, most people start with a normal, then get into morphs, and some then start breeding. but thats just because the big chain pet stores have such a strong market influence, and they typically only ever buy the cheapest hatchlings and sell them overpriced, which means africa import normal hatchlings, or rejects from big breeders. its their business model, buy the cheapest stuff, sell it for as much as can be charged for it, and so another thing is part of the experience: they buy a normal for over a hundred dollars with mites from a big chain, then they do the research, and it turns out they can get the same without mites and in better condition for 20 dollars at a reptile show, and what they paid would have been enough to get a simple morph from a local breeder. thats not optimal at all.

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_brock lesser_ (01-14-2014)

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## brock lesser

> I don't think they'll go up. There will always be people breeding their pastel male to normal female. 
> 
> I'm not sure why there is so much offense being taken to the word useless. He is talking about the dollar value of the animal over the cost of keeping it alive. He is not talking about how you should just pick them up, throw them at the garbage can or let your cat play with it. Nobody is downplaying the value of life. We're on a website dedicated to these animals - we all signed up here because we agree they're all cool, including normal males. It's pretty obviously a discussion about return on investment. Chill out.


This is the explanation to the original statement  I have been waiting on.
I will never breed a normal male to anything for any reason so no breading value, I sell them,
I have 15 breeder normal females,  don't need anymore, sell them too. 
Do I do back flips when I hatch normals out of a three gene female, nope.
Is every baby treated like gold, yes, because they have value to someone.
I understand the op's point just figured some might not.

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## satomi325

I don't think normals will increase in monetary value. However, an outstanding clean, light normal is worth more to me personally than a browned out, dirty, busy pastel for example. And if two dirty pastels produced super pastels, I would still take that clean, light normal over it. A dirty super pastel (yes, they exist) is a horrible prospect for breeding.


One issue with normals is that many people do not selectively breed for them like how most breed for morphs. They just breed whatever normal of whatever quality to their other morphs. 

Yes, normals vary a lot.
But certain normals can definitely improve the way a morph looks. For example, a blushed out, really light, really reduced pattern normal can enhance and improve a fire or a pastel. 
Gale (Angellady) here has one of THE BEST normal females I have ever seen. And she uses that normal female to produce superb morph offspring that are much more attractive than the morph sire. The female has traits that do improve the looks and quality of the offspring.

I personally think if people used excellent examples of normals(including males) for breeding, we can improve the quality and looks of morphs.
However, most people just randomly breed whatever normal female they have around without really considering how it would compliment or worsen the morph they are breeding to. 


My first few ball pythons were morphs before I finally bought a normal hatchling for future breeding. After a year of caring for her, I sold her. She was not a good example of a normal and did not have any special qualities I wanted to include into my breeding program. I want my line of animals to have superb blushing, vibrant coloration, and clean patterns, which she has none of these qualities.

So in regards to normals, there are definitely pet quality and breeding quality, like any other morph. However, most do overlook this just because they're normals.
So in terms of breeding stock, I do indeed find many normals "useless", unworthy of breeding, and to be pet quality at the best. But I do think that about a lot of morphs too.
Personally, it has nothing to do with what genetics the snake has, but quality.

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_Alicia_ (01-15-2014),Badgemash (01-15-2014),*bcr229* (01-15-2014),_BHReptiles_ (01-15-2014),_brock lesser_ (01-14-2014),PitOnTheProwl (01-15-2014),_sorraia_ (01-14-2014)

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## brock lesser

> I don't think normals will increase in monetary value. However, an outstanding clean, light normal is worth more to me personally than a browned out, dirty, busy pastel for example. And if two dirty pastels produced super pastels, I would still take that clean, light normal over it. A dirty super pastel (yes, they exist) is a horrible prospect for breeding.
> 
> 
> One issue with normals is that many people do not selectively breed for them like how most breed for morphs. They just breed whatever normal of whatever quality to their other morphs. 
> 
> Yes, normals vary a lot.
> But certain normals can definitely improve the way a morph looks. For example, a blushed out, really light, really reduced pattern normal can enhance and improve a fire or a pastel. 
> Gale (Angellady) here has one of THE BEST normal females I have ever seen. And she uses that normal female to produce superb morph offspring that are much more attractive than the morph sire. The female has traits that do improve the looks and quality of the offspring.
> 
> ...


excellent post

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## Kodieh

> I don't think they'll go up. There will always be people breeding their pastel male to normal female.


I don't see why people waste their time, personally. My first pairings going all be morphs, I was going to do a morph x normal, but the odds of hitting on normals is too great and you literally cannot just give them away.

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## MS2

I think there is a market for them. Breeding value, not so much. I had an easier time selling normal Ball pythons than I did selling morphs this season. Although selling 1 morph was equal or greater than all my normal sales combined.

As far as price going up.....probably not unless importing them is outlawed.

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## sorraia

I'm not even a breeder yet (but I have some business sense acquired outside of breeder), and I don't foresee the price of normals going up.

There will always be some small value for normals in terms of pets, while they may not have much value to breeders. Let's face it, big dollar morphs pretty typically go to other breeders and hobbyists willing to pay those big bucks. Pet keepers buy normals, pastels, and other cheap animals (some exceptions exist). But that doesn't mean the price of those normals, pastels, whatever will ever go up. 

As for what is done with normals... hopefully they are treated with respect that all living animals deserve. I'd rather see them fed to another animal than just thrown in the trash (regardless whether dead or alive when it happens). I don't like the thought of it, but it's a better use than to just be trash. I feel the same way about roosters (I keep chickens, and though I don't purposefully breed them, I have let my hens hatch a couple eggs just to see what comes out)... roosters are practically worthless unless you are breeding chickens (and even then you don't need a bunch of roosters). They are pretty, but they can be noisy, can be aggressive (not always), and are generally unwelcome in most residential areas (even those where hens are allowed). So you can't keep roosters, and can't really even give them away. Better to use them for something (food) than to just throw them away. At least then their life had some purpose.

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_aldebono_ (01-14-2014),Badgemash (01-15-2014),_satomi325_ (01-15-2014)

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## Jackie

Just made a deal a while ago. Bought a rack. With it came 5 normal female breeders and a male. Hearing the girls are near worthless bummed me out a little! Either way, they are beautiful girls and good pets if anything. (Actually, the male is a pastel.) 


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## rascal_rascal_99

> Just made a deal a while ago. Bought a rack. With it came 5 normal female breeders and a male. Hearing the girls are near worthless bummed me out a little! Either way, they are beautiful girls and good pets if anything. (Actually, the male is a pastel.) 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would say there's no reason to feel bummed, value and worth of something can be totally subjective at times, and to me it sounds like for you, they do have value. I produced two animals this season that to me were more valuable than what they would sell for...so they are still sitting in my rack. What I will say though, is put some thought into what you're going to do with all these animals, how much sense does it really make to breed a pastel male to five females (if that's the direction you sound like you're going here). There are a lot of breeders moving out single and double gene proven males at shows to replace them with something else, either more genes or newer ones...animals that have more than paid for themselves, will likely be out of future breeding rotations and it's worth it to give someone a break on the price to free up the cage space at home...just something you might want to think about.

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## Jackie

I'm definitely not planning on breeding him to all those girls!!  :Smile:  I also have an albino pair and a pied male, just not of size yet, but I do see what your saying, and to me they are worth their weight in gold, all of them. 


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_Mr. Misha_ (01-15-2014)

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## Pythonfriend

> Just made a deal a while ago. Bought a rack. With it came 5 normal female breeders and a male. Hearing the girls are near worthless bummed me out a little! Either way, they are beautiful girls and good pets if anything. (Actually, the male is a pastel.) 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


if you get a nice multi-gene breeder male, its still a cheap way to drive up the number of clutches and eggs  :Smile: 

the only issue is that nowadays, people generally want more than that.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> You just wrote the magic words. This is a HOBBY for me as well as most small breeders and probably yourself. I don't rely on breeding to pay my bills. My first reason for breeding would be to have fun not to strike rich. I think you're in the wrong hobby to make money.
> 
> If you want me to look at breeding from a business point of view then I'd tell you it's not a good business to be in period. If all you care about is making money, there's plenty of things you can do that will make a lot more money a lot faster than breeding ever will. So please don't talk to me about smart choices. 
> 
> So at the end of the day, unless you're the select few who actually depend on breeding to pay their bills, you shouldn't be talking about how uselss certain animals are. Maybe you should reconsider your hobby/business choices and go into something that doesn't deal with useless animals.


Where in any post in my entire time on this forum have I ever said I do it for the money and to pay my bills? You really might need to start READING with a open mind and not put words in my mouth/posts. If you breed, then you breed for a purpose and this then makes it a business. Some of us make start choices with our families money while there are others that don't. What you do is your choice but it seems to me that you are just wanting to start an argument. 




> This has nothing to do with breeding projects. Read the post before you reply. 
> 
> I'd love to produce cool morphs but I'm not going to use regular BPs I produce as feeders as someone on this thread suggested. And your "useless" normals are the ones that get people involved in this hobby. I think most people here started with a normal including myself.


#1 You said it yourself that you are a breeder, correct? As a breeder we all should have plans/purpose for every pairing that we do. If you don't then you just might be a hack. Its not about throwing two snakes together just because you have a male and female. (This reminds me of a lot of wanna be dog breeders) Every pairing I have going on with my 9 girls have a goal, some could be in one clutch while others might take several?

#2 Don't sugar coat it, I'm not that kind of guy. Yes I said I know someone that feeds off his normal hatchlings to hid kings. Again IF you open your mind you would not have zeroed in on just those couple words in that post. If they have any type of birth defect only, then again even morphs have gone the same route if they had issues. Would I do it? Don't know, depends on the situation and condition of the hatchling.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> I don't think they'll go up. There will always be people breeding their pastel male to normal female. 
> 
> I'm not sure why there is so much offense being taken to the word useless. He is talking about the dollar value of the animal over the cost of keeping it alive. He is not talking about how you should just pick them up, throw them at the garbage can or let your cat play with it. Nobody is downplaying the value of life. We're on a website dedicated to these animals - we all signed up here because we agree they're all cool, including normal males. It's pretty obviously a discussion about return on investment. Chill out.


What you are seeing is what happens when people are stuck in the self centered world of "me" and cannot open their eyes or minds to what other people do and the reasons why. That just sounded like something from the Matrix LoL. 





> Just made a deal a while ago. Bought a rack. With it came 5 normal female breeders and a male. Hearing the girls are near worthless bummed me out a little! Either way, they are beautiful girls and good pets if anything. (Actually, the male is a pastel.)


We all have/had to start somewhere. Normal females have a value as breeders but not like they use to. Again its up to what the breeder wants to do and their individual goals. I have 4 normal girls in one rack and two of them are pet quality as I also have two males in another rack that were my first snakes.

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## KING JAMES

Lets see how much heat I catch for the following, I kinda feel like I am going on a pet rat forum and posting about raising feeders.
If I have normal males (yes this is my first year breeding so my luck I will have all normal males or nothing LOL) after a certain point of feeding them and not being able to sell them, feeding them off becomes a very real possibility. I see no difference in feeding off snakes vs feeding off rats, mices, hell even roaches, and mealworms. Everything I just mentioned was a living creature giving its life to sustain another life. 

Anyway back on topic towards the OP original post. I do not believe there will be a raise in the cost of normals unless something really really drastic happens (disease tears through a bunch of breeders reducing the overall availability of normal ball pythons). There are too many coming out of Africa and the prices on morphs is low enough that even people just getting into breeding can start with morphs instead of normals.

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_satomi325_ (01-15-2014)

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## satomi325

While I don't personally use snakes as feeders, I doesn't bother me seeing BPs or other snakes used as feeders. BPs, including morphs, are some of the most common feeder snakes in the reptile world.

Just like our snakes have to eat rats, some snakes have to eat other snakes. I've seen a few cobra, monitor, and frog keepers feed balls to their snake eating animals. And animals like King Cobras cannot eat any other prey(I.E. with fur) because they evolved to ingest specifically snakes. They do not thrive on any other diet. And other furred prey like rats have been seen to actually give them internal and digestive problems.

I'd rather see a snake become a feeder than it go to a bad home and suffer slowly or thrown away/released into the wild(we all know its happened).

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Badgemash (01-15-2014)

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## MarkS

I personally have quite a few normal females that I use for breeding.  Which means I usually end up with plenty of normal offspring.   These babies are useless to me, (as in I personally have no use for them) that doesn't mean they are without value.  I'll feed them up (not too much, just maintenence feeding, and I try to get them on frozen thawed as fast as possible) and generally sell them off to a pet store or wholesale them. It usually cost me more (especially in time) then they are worth.  It's a good thing I'm not in this for the money.   :Very Happy:

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_KING JAMES_ (01-15-2014),Pythonfriend (01-15-2014)

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## Mr. Misha

> you also need to step away from you hobby choice and look at it from a business point of view.


Well here's a good example where you told me to look at my hobby from a business point of view. The only business point of view I know is to make money.

Look Pit, I'm not here to argue with you. I'm not saying breeders can't have ambitions or goals but eveyone has a different outlook on what is useful and what is not in breeding and elsewhere. So I'll agree to disagree with you on this. 

I think if breeders stood their ground on normal's prices, people would buy them at the same price as private reptile stores sell them. What happens is people just start flooding the market and underselling their animals because they're trying to so over time, it becomes the norm and everyone expects to buy a normal for 10 bucks.

They'll always going to be a demand for normals as a beginner snake/pet snake so as long as we stop selling them for next to nothing, there's a slight chance they might be worth more than a couple of bucks. 

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## KING JAMES

The problem with the stand your ground thing is that there are always people who simply do not want to deal with raising up normal males, myself included, that will sell them for cheap to get them gone. The joy of the free market. If all the breeders got together and agreed on certain prices for normals you would all go out of business for price fixing and I would still sell my normals for low prices  :Very Happy:

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PitOnTheProwl (01-15-2014)

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## PitOnTheProwl

> Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl
> 
> 
> As much as you think you love your normals (don't twist what I type because I have my share of normal that I wont let go of either) you also need to step away from you hobby choice and look at it from a business point of view. I love breeding, raising up little ones costs the same regardless if its a normal or a ?? morph. Whats the smart choice?
> 
> 
> Well here's a good example where you told me to look at my hobby from a business point of view. The only business point of view I know is to make money.
> 
> Look Pit, I'm not here to argue with you. I'm not saying breeders can't have ambitions or goals but eveyone has a different outlook on what is useful and what is not in breeding and elsewhere. So I'll agree to disagree with you on this.


You are correct, we will agree to disagree but please use my whole quote not just the center section that you don't agree with.

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## Badgemash

On topic answer, I don't see the prices dropping unless the supply of imported animals dries up either from regulation (emperor scorpions anyone?), massive habitat loss/destruction/climate change for the import farms (it's a problem, but not an acute one), or a major disease outbreak for the farms (possible, look what happened with chytrid).




> Well here's a good example where you told me to look at my hobby from a business point of view. The only business point of view I know is to make money.
> 
> Look Pit, I'm not here to argue with you. I'm not saying breeders can't have ambitions or goals but eveyone has a different outlook on what is useful and what is not in breeding and elsewhere. So I'll agree to disagree with you on this. 
> 
> I think if breeders stood their ground on normal's prices, people would buy them at the same price as private reptile stores sell them. What happens is people just start flooding the market and underselling their animals because they're trying to so over time, it becomes the norm and everyone expects to buy a normal for 10 bucks.
> 
> They'll always going to be a demand for normals as a beginner snake/pet snake so as long as we stop selling them for next to nothing, there's a slight chance they might be worth more than a couple of bucks. 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk


 I started with a normal male, and I still have him. I also have a good day job and I certainly do not breed as a business. But I sat down the other day and started adding up just how much money I have thrown into this hobby, I stopped when I hit 10k in 20 seconds. So yes, I'd like to sell my non-holdbacks for more than $10 which is why that normal male is a PET. My male Scottie is a terrible example of what a Scottish Terrier should look like, that is why he's neutered. It doesn't mean I love him any less (I love that dog to bits, I cannot have children so my puppies are my "babies" and I love them fiercely) but he is absolutely useless as a breeding animal, in fact he would be a net negative as a breeding animal. No amount of love, nor the emotional value we place on an animal will change the monetary value of what's present in their genes. 

The prices of normals are not driven by breeders in the US "flooding the market and underselling their animals" the market price of normals is set by the price of bulk imports from Africa. It's breeders here who are matching those prices, and we are a drop in the bucket of that supply. I certainly don't know anyone who produces tens of thousands of normal BPs here, which is the kind of bulk import volume that the large pet store chains are doing. It has nothing to do with breeders "standing their ground on normal's prices."

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*bcr229* (01-15-2014),_Bluebonnet Herp_ (01-15-2014),_satomi325_ (01-15-2014)

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## Pythonfriend

> ...
> I think if breeders stood their ground on normal's prices, people would buy them at the same price as private reptile stores sell them. What happens is people just start flooding the market and underselling their animals because they're trying to so over time, it becomes the norm and everyone expects to buy a normal for 10 bucks.
> 
> They'll always going to be a demand for normals as a beginner snake/pet snake so as long as we stop selling them for next to nothing, there's a slight chance they might be worth more than a couple of bucks.


thats wishful thinking, thats the first problem i see. the second problem is that if made a reality, it would indeed be price fixing / the formation of a cartel. the third problem is that if there is overproduction, and you cannot go down with the price, you end up having to keep them or to cull them. the fourth problem is that you cannot get around the fact that there are african breeders that sell them for 5-10 dollars per hatchling, and they regularly put together shipments of 1000 or 2000 hatchlings, and they wont stop because they actually still make a profit doing this, and petco and petsmart and other big chains wont stop buying from them. 

so, dreaming about the formation of a cartel to set a lower price limit is nice, but for that you need to change a few laws to allow for cartels, you need an import ban, and you need to somehow get rid of people like these two fellow forum members: (no offense, just making a point)




> KING JAMES 	 	 		 			 			The problem with the stand your ground thing is that there are always  people who simply do not want to deal with raising up normal males,  myself included, that will sell them for cheap to get them gone. The joy  of the free market. If all the breeders got together and agreed on  certain prices for normals you would all go out of business for price  fixing and I would still sell my normals for low prices





> MarkS 	 	 		 			 			I personally have quite a few normal females that I use for breeding.   Which means I usually end up with plenty of normal offspring.   These  babies are useless to me, (as in I personally have no use for them) that  doesn't mean they are without value.  I'll feed them up (not too much,  just maintenence feeding, and I try to get them on frozen thawed as fast  as possible) and generally sell them off to a pet store or wholesale  them. It usually cost me more (especially in time) then they are worth.   It's a good thing I'm not in this for the money.



so its not going to happen. same goes for morphs. as long as the market is free, and people can freely decide to breed, and can freely decide when and how to sell their stuff, and as long as people are free to import from Ghana and Benin, there is no lower limit on price. you need to take these freedoms away, get rid of imports, get rid of small independent breeders and hobby breeders, get a cartel legalized, and form a cartel. once you have done all that and have a closed market cornered off, you can set a minimum price. 

i prefer a free market, EVEN IF it means normals sometimes go for 10 dollars. thats a small price to pay, if the alternative would mean to go for a closed and cornered-off market. the freedoms you have, and that includes setting your own prices and deciding who to sell to and how, are part of what makes breeding attractive in the first place.

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## Mr. Misha

> The prices of normals are not driven by breeders in the US "flooding the market and underselling their animals" the market price of normals is set by the price of bulk imports from Africa. It's breeders here who are matching those prices, and we are a drop in the bucket of that supply."


I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm not educated on where to buy cheap normals, but the cheap prices don't come from chain stores or even private reptile stores. I see these cheap perices from individuals online and at reptile shows. 

I'm definitely not advocating for fixed pricing. Just making this clear. But if I start breeding Albinos and start selling them for a hundred bucks retail, prices will plummet very quickly.


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## MarkS

> I'm definitely not advocating for fixed pricing. Just making this clear. But if I start breeding Albinos and start selling them for a hundred bucks retail, prices will plummet very quickly.


Not likely, it takes a lot more then one person to cause prices to drop, If I don't get the price I want for an albino, I just keep it. I'm not going to do that for a normal.

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PitOnTheProwl (01-15-2014)

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## Dave Green

There is also competition from some lower priced morphs.  I used to have no problem selling normals for $35 - $40.  We now have pastel males, yellow belly males and some others that can be purchased for under $100 and some as low as $50.  It's just something we need to deal with.

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PitOnTheProwl (01-15-2014)

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## Bluebonnet Herp

> normals have some immaterial value in that every healthy BP deserves the same kind of respect and care, and every healthy BP has he potential to be a really great pet that people can become really attached to. in that sense they are all valuable, morph or not.
> 
> 
> but when talking about MONETARY value, its still correct to say that they are worth next to nothing. so when some people say things like "normals are worthless" or "try breeding normals first, that way you wont lose much when it doesnt work out", and other people get upset, maybe its just a misunderstanding? 
> 
> and to say that for breeding, normals are worthless, is also quite correct. it may sound rude, but that doesnt make it untrue. the thing is that for normals, big exporters in Ghana or Benin pretty much set the global market price. and that price is just too low for any breeder that requires heat tape and thermostats and incubators and who has to pay employees 15 dollars per hour to compete with. you need to sell combos and morphs at premium prices in order to break even. depending on how efficient a breeder operates, every normal hatched may imply an immediate financial loss, so they try their best to avoid it by breeding morph combo to morph combo.


You hit the nail on the head. While no animal should be disrespected and treated as disposable, normals are, financially, least valuable. As supply and demand goes, normals have hardly any value due to the surplus of animals out there. They're probably one of the easiest snakes to find and obtain.
It seems things usually go wrong when there's a misunderstanding of wording. (Or, god forbid, greed gets the best of someone and that does evolve into some form of abuse or neglect, but that's another subject.) Most of the 'higher' members here- those who run businesses breeding animals- often talk from a business point of view, and pet owners tend to misunderstand that as degrading any value of the animal. Assuming everyone here actually values life, it's safe to say that we all respect the animal as is, it's just that everyone holds their different perspectives within the hobby depending on what they do. That's just what separates a pet keeper from a breeder.

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## KING JAMES

> so its not going to happen. same goes for morphs. as long as the market is free, and people can freely decide to breed, and can freely decide when and how to sell their stuff, and as long as people are free to import from Ghana and Benin, there is no lower limit on price. you need to take these freedoms away, get rid of imports, get rid of small independent breeders and hobby breeders, get a cartel legalized, and form a cartel. once you have done all that and have a closed market cornered off, you can set a minimum price. 
> 
> i prefer a free market, EVEN IF it means normals sometimes go for 10 dollars. thats a small price to pay, if the alternative would mean to go for a closed and cornered-off market. the freedoms you have, and that includes setting your own prices and deciding who to sell to and how, are part of what makes breeding attractive in the first place.


 I find it odd that you quote me and take my words way out of context when I agree with you...I dont care how low my normal males sell for...If they drop below a certain point then I guess I am glad that I need feeders for my kings. That is my last input into this "conversation"

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_Kodieh_ (01-16-2014)

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## Badgemash

> I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm not educated on where to buy cheap normals, but the cheap prices don't come from chain stores or even private reptile stores. I see these cheap perices from individuals online and at reptile shows. 
> 
> I'm definitely not advocating for fixed pricing. Just making this clear. But if I start breeding Albinos and start selling them for a hundred bucks retail, prices will plummet very quickly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk


The prices you see at reptile shows and online are the WHOLESALE market values (or close to it), which is different from the RETAIL market value. When you see a normal at a private reptile store it might run $45. The owner of the store paid $10 or so for it, but they have to mark it up to cover rent (or mortgage) on the space, the cost of the display caging, heating, water, insurance, payroll, the container you take it home in etc. But the $10 wholesale price is still based off of what the big bulk importers are paying.

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## Mr. Misha

> The prices you see at reptile shows and online are the WHOLESALE market values (or close to it), which is different from the RETAIL market value. When you see a normal at a private reptile store it might run $45. The owner of the store paid $10 or so for it, but they have to mark it up to cover rent (or mortgage) on the space, the cost of the display caging, heating, water, insurance, payroll, the container you take it home in etc. But the $10 wholesale price is still based off of what the big bulk importers are paying.


So why would you wholesale the animals on a retail market? From what I've seen, normals in reptile stores go for around 75 bucks here so that's quite a markup from 10 bucks. 

An average consumer doesn't buy from wholesale importers either. It's like buying Nike shoes directly from the manufacturer. I'm sure a few do it but most people pay what they cost in the store. That's why the company has capital to grow. If everyone could buy Nike shoes at wholesale, the company would have collapsed.

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## Pythonfriend

> I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm not educated on where to buy cheap normals, but the cheap prices don't come from chain stores or even private reptile stores. I see these cheap perices from individuals online and at reptile shows. 
> 
> I'm definitely not advocating for fixed pricing. Just making this clear. But if I start breeding Albinos and start selling them for a hundred bucks retail, prices will plummet very quickly.


its easy to miss because that part of the market is not very visible.

they sell 500 or more. its all about the low prices, and getting hatchlings from Ghana to the USA or Europe alive is not trivial, its expensive. if you would only buy 100, that could already hurt the deal. also most of the hatchlings will be pre 1st shed and have never eaten. so you either need to move them fast, or you need to house them all and start feeding them after their 1st shed. 

so its not something you can order online just like that. its 500 or more hatchlings, if you stretch it maybe 200, typically 1000 or more, and you either need to move them lightning fast to pet stores, or you will get into trouble because you need to house them all and start feeding them. at the collectives in Ghana where they sort them and put together the deliveries, people just arrive with bags full of hatchlings, they get dollars per hatchling, and they get more if it may be a morph or dinker, initial deals are made. you see piles of hatchlings, maybe 100 at a time, all newly hatched and did not shed and in rather good condition, and people sort them. this is where dinkers and new morphs come from. breeders from around the planet visit these places to look for new stuff, or to pick 50 hatchlings or 500 themselves, and when something fancy is discovered a few phone calls go around the world. brian barczyk would get a call, and so would mike wilbanks. or african breeders fetch them and breed them first, as was the case with bamboo. apart from the 1 in 10000 jackpot oddity, lots of reduced pattern / granite / banded and some pastels are going around.

after the dinkers and the special stuff is sorted out and initial deals are done, they put together the large shipments of hatchlings. if all goes well, all of the hatchlings, except for the ones that didnt make it or that already arrived in poor condition, are on one airplane or another within 1 to 3 days, sometimes more, after they arrive at the cooperative. hundreds of hatchlings per day move through the biggest facilities.


you can find these people online and contact them, they have websites and email, but they only have a few customers around the planet, and if you come in as the new guy and ask for just 200 hatchlings, there will be no deal and not much conversation. and advertising is pointless, why the heck would they advertise 500 pre 1st shed hatchlings that have never eaten? if you ask for 20 hatchlings, and ask for special stuff, they will give you their adress and ask you to come over, with your own plan on how to move them. and thats it. you can actually go there and buy stuff and pick your dinkers, and many breeders do just that. but they still have their own rules. basically when they see you are actually buying numbers of BPs, you get to see more. and when they know you are a regular customer and buy plenty, you get to see fancy stuff, and thats when new genes get imported. 

if you are just looking for normals, and dont care about the fancy dinkers, you can just walk in and buy 50, or 100. also the BP has a different status in these areas, you can keep them in a half wild state. you provide them with a safe place, during the day they rest there, in the evening they move out for a night of hunting, in the early morning they return. farmers might buy a batch of sturdy hatchlings just to set them free on their farm. think of cats in some rural area in the USA with lots of farming. now think of a society where people are scared of cats. now think of a society where BPs slithering around are as common a sight as cats running around would be on that farm in the USA.

thats why i always cringe when i read "wild caught". its ridiculous, and it shows an incomplete understanding. a guy has pythons in his shed, they are just there. he likes them, because they kill rhodents. so he makes sure they can get into and out of the shed. and thats it for now. 

now the way to do a bit more is to just pick up the females that are really building and getting close to laying eggs, and put them in boxes to lay their clutches there, and then you release the females and take the eggs and bury them in a big bucket of damp substrate. of course you need to keep it clean and dig out the eggshells and replace the substrate from time to time. then the question arises: what to do with the hatchlings? if you have a rhodent problem, or want more BPs, they are holdbacks. if you dont have a rhodent problem, but could use some extra cash, you go to the collective and sell them. and thats where the circle closes.

thats why i laugh when people say they have a "wild caught" ball python, its wrong on so many levels. first, it wasnt really wild to begin with, but already in a relationship with humans. second, it was not caught, if you see BPs often and pick up a female that will soon lay eggs, thats not really catching. its like caring for the kittens of a female cat that had their kittens on your turf. third, it has never seen the wild, it came out of an egg that was layed by a semi-wild female in a box. 


there is a fundamental difference between the ball python, and other species like a green tree pythons or western hognose or green anconda or any of the others. in some cultures, the ball python is holy. in some areas, the ball python is in a semi-domesticated state. on some farms, the ball python takes on a supporting role and both the farmer and the python profit.

someone needs to do a decent documentary....  i have sources, but they are a bit, lets say, subideal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv6EmX7dYLg  <--  temple of python in Benin. its been there for a long time, BPs hang around during the day, leave at night. locals let them into their homes and sometimes feed them, or they just go hunting. its a temple built for ball pythons, complete with religious significance, full-time "monks", tourists, history, and pythons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw5ZOH3PN4o  <--- unfortunately only in german, no subtitles. in the first third of the video, he tracks down a wild BP and checks the temperatures with a temp gun. in the second third of the video, you see bags of hatchlings and piles of hatchlings. from 5:33 onwards you can watch him picking out hatchlings. and he explains that when you decide to look through a batch a farmer or trapper has provided, you need to pick several of them or the sellers get grumpy. 5:33 onwards, anything that went into the blue bucket was purchased and went to southern germany, to http://www.ms-reptilien.de/index.php?cPath=3_15_16_774 . 6:40 onwards you see racks of tubs that are filled with water and BP hatchlings, its a quarantine and short-term storage facilty. it belongs to an exporter, so thats where the big shipments are put together, he buys and cleans and provides the with water and sorts, and when the rack is full it all goes somewhere. 7:40 onwards, incubator Ghana-style. just a big concrete box where eggs get buried in substrate. 8:30 is the loot, 150 ball pythons, all of them hand picked and dinker material, going on a plane to Germany the same day.   one interesting thing he mentioned: he only picked dinkers/specials, all picked by him personally, and he said you pay 10 times more for that, compared to buying the leftover normals. so based on what he says, for the same price he could have purchased 1500 normal BPs. and all of the 150 he purchased are something, high contrast or reduced pattern or striped or granite. 

to be fair, the breeder in the second video, the Ghana video, really is professional and takes care of all of his animals, he is also breeding in southern Germany and has albino pieds and mahogany and GHI and stuff. he often goes to Ghana and buys a few hundred hatchlings, but he does house and feed them all in Germany and sells them well-started. he is just the one breeder (and also an importer and mover) with the BALLS to put this all on video.


okay, i see i have writen an essay, i hope its interesting. and i hope, together with the video evidence, that this clarifies why the price for normals is set at such a low price. unless you ban imports. Certain parts of the market are rarely seen, just because its not that pretty to look at, or because there are so few potential customers that it makes more sense to email them directly.

If you want something where the lowest price is rather high, look at different species. in chameleons, you have REAL wild-caught, really robbed from nature by trappers and poachers, and breeding is so difficult that captive bred ones are WORTH MORE than the wild-caught ones. here captive bred is worth MORE, because poachers and trappers spend hours until they find one. and captive breds are free of parasites, do better in captivity, breed better, and make better pets. so when its really a problem for you that normal BPs only cost 10 dollars, breed green tree pythons or chameleons or something, where a plain old normal can fetch 200 dollars or more. jacksons chameleons or something. either REALLY wild caught by a poacher, or, higher price and better quality, from a breeder. 

BPs are different. semi-wild, in some areas partly domesticated, lots of human interaction, they will never go extinct, and noone really goes hunting for something that can, in some areas, be picked up at any farm.

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_DNACurtusK_ (01-20-2014),_Mr. Misha_ (01-15-2014)

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## Mr. Misha

That was pretty educational. Thanks for the essay  :Wink:  

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Pythonfriend (01-16-2014)

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## PitOnTheProwl

> So why would you wholesale the animals on a retail market? From what I've seen, normals in reptile stores go for around 75 bucks here so that's quite a markup from 10 bucks. 
> 
> An average consumer doesn't buy from wholesale importers either. It's like buying Nike shoes directly from the manufacturer. I'm sure a few do it but most people pay what they cost in the store. That's why the company has capital to grow. If everyone could buy Nike shoes at wholesale, the company would have collapsed.


Simple expected overhead. Why lay the burden on myself if the pet store is willing to take it on? I don't let any animals go till they hit a 100g mark so I still put in some time and effort with them but mine leave for between $10 and $20 as I am sure most here sell theirs for too.

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_Mr. Misha_ (01-15-2014),Pythonfriend (01-16-2014)

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## Mr. Misha

> Simple expected overhead. Why lay the burden on myself if the pet store is willing to take it on? I don't let any animals go till they hit a 100g mark so I still put in some time and effort with them but mine leave for between $10 and $20 as I am sure most here sell theirs for too.


I definitely get the wholesale part of it. It makes sense to sell the balls you're not keeping to a reptile store at a wholesale price. That's exactly the route I'm taking.

Just don't get why people sell at wholesale prices online or at shows.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> I definitely get the wholesale part of it. It makes sense to sell the balls you're not keeping to a reptile store at a wholesale price. That's exactly the route I'm taking.
> 
> Just don't get why people sell at wholesale prices online or at shows.


You have to remember if you are going to sell online there is also going to be shipping, usually $50. So if you want to try and sell your normal for $50 and then have to charge $50 for shipping you are now at $100 cost to the customer. That's more than a retail pet store sells them for.

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## Mr. Misha

> You have to remember if you are going to sell online there is also going to be shipping, usually $50. So if you want to try and sell your normal for $50 and then have to charge $50 for shipping you are now at $100 cost to the customer. That's more than a retail pet store sells them for.


Makes sense.

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## Badgemash

Places like shows and ks are also kind of a middlemen scenario. They're not technically wholesale, and not really retail either. The vendors at a show have to cover some costs like registration and show displays, but nothing like what a brick and mortar shop has to pay. So the prices at a show are more like buying something from a broker, who has bought it from a wholesaler (either the original producer acting as a broker of their own animals, or an actual broker who really did buy them wholesale and is trying to flip them for a small profit, or got them as part of a trade etc) but still getting a discount over the retail price market. Shows are kind of like the outlet malls of reptile buying, the big name breeders are the Neiman Marcuses, petsmartco is the Walmart, and the smaller hobbyists are the local mom-n-pop shop.

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## Kodieh

I'm kind of looking at maybe getting a king snake now, this conversation has been very enlightening. 

Especially when rat pinks are 0.75 to 1.00 USD a piece here in Oklahoma. 

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## Wheatley

I am a beginner in owning snakes. Cave, my normal bp was my first snake! I got him from petsmart, underweight.  :Sad:  He is getting nice and round now. I got What's her face; my second normal, she was a female. She is around 400 grams. 
Then I got a 100% het pied pair, and love them all to death!
Even if they are a 'normal', I LOVE them! They where the start of all ball python morphs. I am thankful for them.

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_REBELLMORPH_ (01-17-2014)

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## jackie682

Hi! New here. Interesting topic. Wanted to point out that at the 3 petcos near me, they sell pastel and spider BPs, $100 IIRC. Not sure where they get them, but I'd venture to guess not from a captive hatched farm in Africa. 


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## ratfink721

I have a question. I'm new to BPs as well. Got mine from petco. The neck of it is no bigger than my pinkie. I got a ASF baby rat from a local breeder is this to big for my snake?

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## Pythonfriend

> Hi! New here. Interesting topic. Wanted to point out that at the 3 petcos near me, they sell pastel and spider BPs, $100 IIRC. Not sure where they get them, but I'd venture to guess not from a captive hatched farm in Africa.


sometimes breeders sell all normals, and all morph BPs that are not worth enough, cheaply to wholesalers, and then they can end up in a big chain stores. with shipping costs and stuff, sometimes its more economical to only sell individually what is above a certain minimum price, and anything below that treshold just goes to wholesalers in bulk. so these pastels and spiders may be from breedings like superfly kingpin to bumblebee or something, from a big and famous breeder, and its simply the ones that missed out on the odds and didnt get a bunch of valuable genes.

and while captive hatched and farmed BPs from africa are generally normals, there are now also breeders in africa working with rack systems and morphs. in the future i would expect larger numbers of basic morphs from africa. even if they do breed in racks and dont do the farming and captive hatched thing, african breeders still have the advantage that they need no heating, no electricity, and no incubators to run a rack-based breeding operation. the climate simply is exactly right.

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## satomi325

> I have a question. I'm new to BPs as well. Got mine from petco. The neck of it is no bigger than my pinkie. I got a ASF baby rat from a local breeder is this to big for my snake?
> 
> Sent from my LGL86C using Tapatalk


The neck can stretch. Feed prey that is the same size as the widest part/girth as your snake.

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PitOnTheProwl (01-18-2014)

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## ratfink721

Ok thank you. Yea I bought one BP and then my buddy had to git rid of his three and I took them. He was gonna give them to a rescue. Couldn't have that.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> I have a question. I'm new to BPs as well. Got mine from petco. The neck of it is no bigger than my pinkie. I got a ASF baby rat from a local breeder is this to big for my snake?


ASF Baby? There are several stages, pinky, crawler, pup, and hopper with rodents so depending on what size it is depends if its too big or small. I would venture to say with it being an ASF its might be too small. Like satomi said, same size as the widest part of your snake is a good ratio to go by.  :Good Job:

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