# Site General > General Herp >  Kiss your hobby goodbye!!!! USFW Proposed ban!!!!

## Kara

Folks this is SERIOUS!!!!  US Fish & Wildlife is proposing a ban of ALL SPECIES in the genera of Python, Boa & Eunectes.  If this is passed, it will ban all interstate trade (that means buying & selling!) or importation of those genera (genera = plural for "genus") in the private sector.

Eunectes = Anacondas
Boa = includes ALL of the Boa constrictor species...yes, your Colombian boas, your red-tails, Argentine, Bolivian, Brazilian...anything whose scientific name starts with Boa constrictor...

And folks, the genus "Python" encompasses the following:

Ball pythons
Angolan pythons
Bloods & short-tails
Burms/rocks
Retics
Timors 

This is SERIOUS!  This is FOR REAL!!!  It is time for us ALL to have a voice & make our feelings known in a polite, respectful yet FIRM way!  

I know linking to other sites is usually a no-no, but there is an entire write-up on this at Pet Hobbyist:

http://www.pethobbyist.com/sitenews/...hons-Boas.html

The time to act is NOW!!!!!!!  If this goes through, herpetoculture as we know it is going to RADICALLY change, and NOT for the better!  No more big reptile shows, because out-of-state vendors wouldn't be able to attend.  No more buying your snakes from a breeder out of state.  No more herpetoculture as it is right now!

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BrianPotter (03-05-2009),_pythontricker_ (10-18-2008),_rmune0750_ (03-02-2009)

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## clipclopclip

What do we do to help keep this from happening?

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## karbogast

> What do we do to help keep this from happening?


Here is a link to info about the proposal and contact info if you would like to comment on the issue. Like Kara stated, this is something we should all take seriously and be proactive on.
http://www.pethobbyist.com/sitenews/...9&entry_id=202

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## JimiSnakes

Speechless. I'm gonna read through all this. Be back.

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## frankykeno

From what I got from a very quick read over.  I'll be reading it in depth over the coming week you can't respond by any electronic means i.e. email or fax.  You need to write a letter and either mail it or have it hand delivered to the address specified (and they reserve the right to publish your personal information which I'm not overly impressed about  :Mad: ).

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## FIREball

I can see it now, illegal drug I mean snake trafficers. Instead of hidden compartments for drugs there will be hidden rack systems so breeders can sell their reptiles to out of staters. Instead of cops busting marijuans grow houses they will look at electric bills to determine who is using heat tape and radiator heaters. This sucks.

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## JimiSnakes

Ok, from what I've read on these...it's saying that we can no longer bring these species into the US. It seems to be solely attacking importation or exportation in or out of the US and it's properties. Has any one asked about this state to state thing? It sounds to me like it's being read wrong. This isn't good no matter what way it's put, but it all boils down to those who've release Burms into the Everglades. The lacy law is a import/export of wildlife that is potentially dangerous to ecological balance of a given area, which is what has happened to the everglades. Typical, a few dum-dums are ruining it for many others.

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## icygirl

> Ok, from what I've read on these...it's saying that we can no longer bring these species into the US. It seems to be solely attacking importation or exportation in or out of the US and it's properties. Has any one asked about this state to state thing? It sounds to me like it's being read wrong.





> An injurious wildlife listing would prohibit the importation into, or transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States by any means, without a permit.


No, it looks like this is for real. The new law would include banning transportation between states.

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## Kara

No, it's also looking at interstate commerce - from state to state within the US as well!  

"An injurious wildlife listing would prohibit the importation into *or transportation between, States,* The District of Colombia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States by any means, without a permit.  Permits may be issued for medical, educational or zoological purposes."

YIKES!

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## Beardedragon

This is stupid, yet another sad attempt of people who do not understand snakes trying to ban them :Mad:  Like my ball python is ever going to eat me :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Stewart_Reptiles

I already posted this on 2 other forums and my letter will be sent next week.

How far will this government go???  :Mad:

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## Kara

> This is stupid, yet another sad attempt of people who do not understand snakes trying to ban them Like my ball python is ever going to eat me


That's not the primary focus - the primary focus is potentially invasive species that may have an impact on our native ecosystems.  This is where RESPONSIBLE HERPETOCULTURE comes into play!  If they weren't finding Burmese pythons in the Everglades, this wouldn't have as much validity.

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## Beardedragon

> That's not the primary focus - the primary focus is potentially invasive species that may have an impact on our native ecosystems.  This is where RESPONSIBLE HERPETOCULTURE comes into play!  If they weren't finding Burmese pythons in the Everglades, this wouldn't have as much validity.



Oh, i see now.  I think they should regulate the sale of bigger snakes that have more of a chance of being let go because of size and houseing issues, but there is no reason for smaller ones.

I also see stray dogs all over the place, and i do not see them trying to ban dogs?

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## neilgolli

> That's not the primary focus - the primary focus is potentially invasive species that may have an impact on our native ecosystems.  This is where RESPONSIBLE HERPETOCULTURE comes into play!  If they weren't finding Burmese pythons in the Everglades, this wouldn't have as much validity.


I'd also then like to see a ban on all dogs and cats as the 40 million cats in the state of florida cause a million times the problem of any and all reptiles.  Go Peta, human socity PUKE PUKE

Everyone must spread the word of this and we all must actually write letters.  I've got nearly 700 email address in address book and everyone of you will be getting a letter shortly.  Please pass this on to everyone your address books.

Thanks

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## JeffFlanagan

You can submit your comment   here.

My comment:
Regarding the proposed snake ban,

I think that we should be aware of the broad variety of snakes that would fall
under the current description. The large snakes can be extremely dangerous, and
I can understand an interest in regulating them to keep them out of the hands of
inexperienced keepers.

On the other hand, small snakes like Ball Pythons, some Carpet Pythons, and Boas
make wonderful pets and are less dangerous than a kitten. They require specific
conditions to survive, making wild populations impossible in most of the United
States, and are only a danger to the small rodents we consider pests.

I'm a Ball Python hobbyist, and plan to grow my hobby of breeding beautiful
snakes into a business I can fully focus on when I reach retirement age. I
ask that you not crush this dream.

Thank you for considering my input,

Jeff Flanagan

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## JeffFlanagan

> Instead of cops busting marijuans grow houses they will look at electric bills to determine who is using heat tape and radiator heaters. This sucks.


I was already concerned about getting my door kicked in by DEA thugs for electrical use, but hoped they'd calm down when I explained about the snakes.  Now I'll be hauled off in the night by Fish & Wildlife for sure.

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## lillyorchid

What the....

This has got to the the biggest sack of horse poop I've ever heard of! Believe you me I'll be passing this around and I'll be sending them a letter, thats for sure!

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## PigsnPythons

Will someone post the address of where we should mail the letter?

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Will someone post the address of where we should mail the letter?


Attn: RIN 1018AV68, Division of Policy and Directives Management, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Suite 222 
Arlington, VA 22203 

You letter MUST contain your name and address (no anonymous letter) and MUST be sent by

April 30, 2008.

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## neilgolli

> Will someone post the address of where we should mail the letter?


HERE is the address
U.S. mail or hand-delivery: Public Comments Processing, 
Attn: RIN 1018-AV68, Division of Policy and Directives Management, U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife Service, 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Suite 222, 
Arlington, VA 22203.
    Instructions: We will not accept e-mail or faxes. We will post all 
comments on http://www.regulations.gov. This generally means that we 
will post any personal information you provide us (see the Public 
Comments section below for more information).

DO NOT GO JUMPING YOUR GUNS WITHOUT FIRST COMPLETELY READING THE GUIDELINES. MAKE YOUR LETTER COUNT, BE RESPECTFUL AND HAVE OTHERS REVIEW YOUR LETTER BEFORE SENDING IT IN.

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## Louie1

> DO NOT GO JUMPING YOUR GUNS WITHOUT FIRST COMPLETELY READING THE GUIDELINES. MAKE YOUR LETTER COUNT, BE RESPECTFUL AND HAVE OTHERS REVIEW YOUR LETTER BEFORE SENDING IT IN.


Good Point!!

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## CeraDigital

Kara, I'm contacting Bob, Mike, and Jay about this; and working on my letter as we speak! I cannot believe they're going to this extent now. This is insane! I'll do everything I can!

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## CeraDigital

> That's not the primary focus - the primary focus is potentially invasive species that may have an impact on our native ecosystems.  This is where RESPONSIBLE HERPETOCULTURE comes into play!  If they weren't finding Burmese pythons in the Everglades, this wouldn't have as much validity.


The other thing they're not looking into is the damage that the hurricanes have done, to allow this. They've released a multitude of species into the everglades that could establish themselves, including various species of primates, various mammal species, various species of monitors, elapids, various other Pythons including Reticulated Pythons, African Rock Pythons and rare species. The most common and notable though is the Burmese, due largely to their frequent occurrence of finds, as well as their noted feeding on large Floridian predators and mammals, and discoveries of clutches, juveniles, and younger animals (Noting they have established themselves and are thriving). All its doing though, is giving fuel to their fire. Really all we can do now is fight it  :Sad:

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## herpmajor

My hobby is my life. It would almost kill me if they took it away. :Sad: 
Why cant they worry more about all the gangs and people selling meth to kids and crap like that. I also agree that their are worse things running lose than snakes.  And not just Cats and dogs. In the everglades there are alot of feral pigs runnung around causing alot of damage. There are so many other invasive species causing more damage and have been there way before snakes came in to the picture. It is unbelieveable that they are trying to pass this. :Mad:

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## CeraDigital

On this note Kara, I've had some newb knot it all aggree'ing with this ban, and restriction, saying it could be one of the best things for this hobby, on Bobs forum. Same newbie know it all that went heads up with me on AfRocks... I'm hoping majority of the Herp community pulls through and fights this...

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## Ginevive

Where will this end? If their arguement is about animals getting out and becoming a threat to native wildlife.. Then.. when will they try to ban cats. Dogs. Horses. Chickens.. all damn animals on earth. Wow, I am heated right now. I will write up a polite, non-confrontational letter though, because getting angry will only make us sound like a bunch of what many perceive snake keepers to be; freaks.  :Sad:   :Sad:   :Sad:

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## Ginevive

The thing that worries me though. If I were to use my actual address and the ban does go into effect; are they going to knock on my flippin' door looking for snakes? Monitor me for electrical use? Threat me like a marijuana grower with helicoptors in my yard? Time to get a PO box..

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## Gary Orner

Guys do not send letters with threats. Be smart about this. Send letters that show the reasons why this hobby is important. 

If this did pass. The outcome would be this. 

National shows=DEAD
Bigger shows=DEAD(only locale breeders would and could go)
Online sales=DEAD

Well for the species they list. 

This would be the beggining of the end. 

Now IMO this can and will be faught. As do you honestly know how much in tax dollars states would lose from this ban?

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## CeraDigital

Exactly Gary. This can be fought logically, morally, and respectfully. I have contacted both Bob Clark, and Mike Wilbanks about this and they are working on it. I cannot call Jay for another couple hours, due to the time zone, but as soon as I can, I will get on it!

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## Gary Orner

To be honest I do not see this all happening. just like in Ohio it was brought up then shot down. 

Now could it? Yes? But if everyone keeps their heads on straight this can be faught. Take your time writing your letters. Do not worry about the address thing. Put your address down. If this bill does pass there will have to be a grandfather clause. Shoot do you know how many pythosn and boas are here in the states? 

I think what the F&W are after is the importing. But believe me when I say. the breeders are going to step up. But we also need the hobbiests to step up. Be thoughtful in your letters. 

There is a better way to clean up Florida. Florida is the reason for this. Just like Kara said.

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## BallPythonsRule

I will definetley send a letter... 
I understand banning anacondas, burmese pythons and retics, because they get realesed very often but not ALL species of boa and pythons should be banned! Very unfair  :Mad:

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## Gary Orner

> I will definetley send a letter... 
> I understand banning anacondas, burmese pythons and retics, because they get realesed very often but not ALL species of boa and pythons should be banned! Very unfair


Banning the species you listed will only open the door to ban the rest. 

banning does nothing but hurt good people. The bad people will continue to do it untill caught. Good people follow the laws. 

There is now a permit system in place in florida for larger snakes.

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## Laooda

I'll be sending a letter, no doubt... 

If this is caused because giants that have been released are thriving... *I HAVE NOT READ THE LINK YET*

The first thing that comes to mind is that SURELLY they know that the everglades are a unique climate, correct?  Even here in TEXAS, I don't believe any non-hibernating snake would survive one winter out doors!?!?

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## ADEE

Dont just blame this on cleaning up Florida. Florida isnt the only reason this has come up. Sadly, yes we do have everglades here and people who dump their no longer desired animals into the glades but it cant *just* be because of our state. I hope this doesnt pass, i would be simply devestated. On a side note for the grandfather thing.. what would they do with all the snakes already living around the country? Wait 20+ years for them to all die off? What about zoo's wanting these species since they will be banned how would they aquire them? I could understand making people carry permits on pythons, boas, exc but certainly not banning them all together!! they have already put permits into effect down here for larger snakes.

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## Brimstone111888

Outrageous. I definitly will be writing a letter. I don't understand why they would go about this whole permit thing in Florida, then turn around and outright ban it a few months later.

Florida is one of the only ecosystems in America where these snakes can thrive. Anywhere else it is too dry or cold. To outright ban pretty much every pet snake(besides corns) because of one small section down in Florida is ridiculous. What about iguanas? They are very damaging to the ecosystem and they get 6-8 feet in length.

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## Gary Orner

> Dont just blame this on cleaning up Florida. Florida isnt the only reason this has come up. Sadly, yes we do have everglades here and people who dump their no longer desired animals into the glades but it cant *just* be because of our state. I hope this doesnt pass, i would be simply devestated. On a side note for the grandfather thing.. what would they do with all the snakes already living around the country? Wait 20+ years for them to all die off? What about zoo's wanting these species since they will be banned how would they aquire them? I could understand making people carry permits on pythons, boas, exc but certainly not banning them all together!! they have already put permits into effect down here for larger snakes.



This is banning the importation of them and them crossing state lines not owning them

Also Zoos do nto fall under the same laws.

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## icygirl

> I could understand making people carry permits on pythons, boas, exc but certainly not banning them all together!! they have already put permits into effect down here for larger snakes.


They are not banning the keeping of snakes, only cross-state trading of snakes. Which would effectively crush much of the snake-keeping business. Think about this: Any pet store that imports these snakes from out of state would have to stop carrying them. That means, virtually NO more ball pythons, RTB's, or anything in any store... You'd have teenagers breeding ball pythons in their bedrooms and selling them to their local Petco. (OK, so that's a bit much  :Razz: )

The people who are going to have the most impact on the feds are people who breed pythons/boas/anas for money. If you look at the list of comment questions on the proposal pdf, they are mainly about the annual sales of these animals, how many breeders there are, how the breeders would be affected, etc. *(In other words, Feds care about $$$ more than hobbyists!)*

Can't wait to hear what the NERD people will have to say about this.

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## Laooda

> They are not banning the keeping of snakes, only cross-state trading of snakes. Which would effectively crush much of the snake-keeping business. Think about this: Any pet store that imports these snakes from out of state would have to stop carrying them. That means, virtually NO more ball pythons, RTB's, or anything in any store... You'd have teenagers breeding ball pythons in their bedrooms and selling them to their local Petco. (OK, so that's a bit much )
> 
> The people who are going to have the most impact on the feds are people who breed pythons/boas/anas for money. If you look at the list of comment questions on the proposal pdf, they are mainly about the annual sales of these animals, how many breeders there are, how the breeders would be affected, etc. *(In other words, Feds care about $$$ more than hobbyists!)*
> 
> *Can't wait to hear what the NERD people will have to say about this*.



KLG is Kara from NERD...

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## icygirl

> KLG is Kara from NERD...


OH haha... well I feel stupid.  :Embarassed:

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## Ophiuchus

This is the equivalent of banning all dogs just because pitbulls are used for dogfighting.  This is ridiculous.  I am in the process of putting my own letter together.

I agree with whoever here who said that it will do nothing to solve the problem they're gunning for: bad people will continue to go outside the law until they get caught, and the good people will suffer.

That said, I really don't think this will go through.  It possible, but we've had scares before.  I'm not too terribly worried, but I will do what I can to say my piece to the powers that be.

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## Sputnik

I know this is probably the wrong spot, but this is important. If it's been posted already, I appologize! 



Feds Move To Ban Pythons & Boas


The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service has made a significant move towards banning the importation and interstate transport of Boa Constrictors and Pythons in the United States. Quietly published in the Federal Register, the agency is accepting public comments until April 30th. If enacted this will devastate an already hard hit industry, dealing a fatal death blow to a large number of businesses dependent on this segment of the industry. Noted herpetologist, author, former zookeeper, and one of the leading private researchers and breeders of pythons in the United States, David Barker, had this to say...

    This is the formal notification and request for public comments regarding the intention of USF&W Service to place ALL snakes in the genera Boa, Python, and Eunectes on the Injurious Wildlife List of the Lacey Act.

    If enacted as regulation, this will ban the importation of said snakes into the USA , and ban all interstate transportation of said snakes.

    There is a request made for public input and we feel it will be very important that all keepers with an interest in boas and pythons make written response before 30 April.

*This is VERY important. Dont take this lightly.* 



Once the importation and inter-state transport has been banned, there will be a rapid exodus of breeders of these species, and eventually they will disappear from the marketplace along with a significant number of businesses and jobs.

To review the USF & W Service proposal, please look at the following document. http://kingsnake.com/FWSReview.pdf

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## Wh00h0069

> You can submit your comment   here.


Everyone please post your comments. 

This is my comment that I posted on the web site posted above.

To Whom It May Concern:

Regarding the Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera. I own 30 ball python (python regius), and 3 boa constrictors (Boa Constrictor Imperator). My collection includes morphs, which are worth more than normal appearing snakes. 

I have invested approximately $10,000, into my collection. I plan on breeding and selling the babies to other hobbyist/ breeders. I plan on selling them via reptile shows, and over the internet. I am in the process of getting certified to ship via FEDEX and Delta. I will only ship within the United States. 

Ball pythons and boa constrictors are non-venomous. They are not dangerous to humans. Ball pythons normally do not grow longer than 4-5 feet. Boa constrictors normally do not grow longer than 7-8 feet. I am an experienced keeper and have never had an issue with my snakes escaping. I have spent a lot of money on specialty caging, which makes it impossible for the snakes to escape. 

Ball pythons and boa constrictors need heat to survive. If they were to escape, or if an irresponsible keeper were to let them go in the wild, they would not survive the winters of most states. 

If this ban were to be put in place, my business would not survive. I would also be extremely upset, because my snakes are my pets. I ask that this ban is reconsidered. 

Thank you very much for your time, and consideration.

Eddie Strong, Jr.

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## Ophiuchus

This is what I have so far:

---------------------
_I am writing in response to the proposed bill by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife to prohibit importation/ownership of all genera of Boa, Python and Eunectes.

I am deeply concerned with the impact that this bill will have on the community of people who keep and breed reptiles as a hobby.  The vast majority of the species covered in the bill pose little threat to everyday life, certainly not more than owning a cat or a dog.  I understand this bill is a response to the recent invasion of large python species infiltrating south Florida, but why not concentrate on the regulation of those select few species instead of outright banning all members of Boidae, most of which rarely exceed 5 feet long?  After all, that is what the state of Florida has done already with the following species: Burmese python, African rock python, reticulated python, and green anacondas.  The bill that the U.S.F.W. is proposing that is against all pythons and boas is the equivalent of banning the ownership of all dogs based on pitbulls used on dogfighting.

This bill, while good in its intentions, will end up devastating the lives of many hobbyists who keep those smaller species.  I, for one, own a ball python, a commonly kept species that rarely even reaches a length of five feet and poses no greater threat to human life than a toy poodle.  I have had this snake for nearly 15 years, longer than any other pet I've owned.  I couldn't bear to give him up, but if this bill is passed, I fear I will be forced to do so.

I hope that the powers that be reconsider this bill and what it really means for the reptile industry. _ 
------------------------------
Any feedback would be welcome.

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## Ophiuchus

It has been posted already in the General Herp section.

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## Laooda

> OH haha... well I feel stupid.


No worries!  :Very Happy:

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## herpmajor

If it would help I am sure that others including me would volunteer
some of our time to helping places like the everglades in any way we can. Maybe someone could get a group of people willing to go out and catch as many of the released herps as they can.  I sure if a few people went out in the glades every weekend to catch them it would make a difference. Think about it if we can wipe out populations of herps by catching to many in their own natural areas, by catching to many, than surely we can do this in a place where their numbers are much lower to start off with. 
 I think that it would be important for us to come up with smart ways of fixing the problem too, and putting them in our letters.  This will help our situation in more then one way.  One it will come up with a way to fix the problem with out a ban. And two it makes us Herp lovers look like part of the solution and not the problem.

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## Sputnik

Yup, if someone wants to move it... delete it then fine, but it's very important. I'm sorry if it's the wrong place, but it needs a lot of attention.

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## joepythons

Everyone keeps asking whats next? You will be unable to breath without writting permision from the president  :Mad:   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .I also find this crap being pushed for during the pesidential stuff going on  :Mad: .We all need to come together and shut these jerks down FOREVER  :Salute:

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## CeraDigital

I always thought diplomacy, and our government was about the people deciding how the country was to be run. To vote on it, and have a fair decision. That no one person could decide for us, saying this is how this will be run, and that being done this way; or tell us what we can or cannot do, and run our lives....That the voice of the people were to ultimately decide. Seems to be less true every day.... :Sad:

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## Alice

As several have said, we need to be smart about this. No threats, no bad language, no hate mail, no rambling comments. Comments must be clear and to the point.  We need to respond to the proposed regs but we also need to write every one of our US elected officials, US representatives and senators, to make them understand why this isn't smart. Politics can come into play. This was issued by the beaurcrats - they can be influenced by politicians who do not like their voters upset.

There are also points we should be aware of when writing our legislators. Usually one page max, make your point in the first sentence e.g., "I am very concerned about the proposed regulations by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to ban the importation and interstate transport of constrictor snakes because ___________"  Fill in the blank . .. I make a living breeding and selling these snakes, or I have a small business that breeds and sells these snakes, or I plan to breed and sell snakes in this category in the next year . . . . .

Then go on and explain why this is very important to you.  

Some examples of well written letters would be very helpful to most people on the various fourms. I remember some from people who were facing bans in their states - those may need to be resurected.   If anyone has written one or sees one somewhere else, post it please.   

Let's take this very seriously.

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## LadyOhh

To the point and professional is what everyone needs to be if we are going to represent our hobby, business or lifes work to the public and to the government.  

We are a large group and a tight community, and the word needs to be spread.

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## CeraDigital

> We are a large group and a tight community, and the word needs to be spread.


I'm doing my part, and my best  :Smile:  I have contacted a few friends/breeders on the issue, and it is being worked on. We all need to pitch in respectfully, and calmly. Jumping the guns just going to hurt (as previously stated). 

I couldn't imagine my life without AfRocks in it... :Sad:

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## Laooda

This is what I am mailing... if I made any huge mistakes, please let me know so I can print a revised copy!

To whom it may concern,


	Upon reading the proposed bill by the Fish and Wildlife regarding the stop shipment of all Eunectes, Boa, and Python species, (including import and export as well as basic city to city transport)  I felt compelled to send this short letter to voice my concern. 
	 I am only a small reptile hobbyist, but I believe that putting this bill  into effect will have only a negative outcome on many levels.  I am sure the multiple reasons of why this bill should be squelched  have been brought to your attention.  Addressing certain issues in the reptile community is understandable, as it is in the Equine, Avian, Mammal, Aquatic, etc... but this bill is not the correct answer to any current issues.

Best Regards,

Laura B. R.

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## cardell75

> We need to respond to the proposed regs but we also need to write every one of our US elected officials, US representatives and senators, to make them understand why this isn't smart. Politics can come into play. This was issued by the beaurcrats - they can be influenced by politicians who do not like their voters upset.


I agree 100% this can be killed with the right amount of political pressure. There are several politicians that have a say so in what gets written into law, and the most effective way to voice your opinion is to copy your letters to ALL of the higher level politicians for your area. You can address them by mail by phone or via the web.

I will be voicing my concern to the folks at F/W but also sending the concerns to othe governer of my state, my cogressman and my senator. Lets not be mad about this, lets roll up our sleeves and fight it using our unified voice. :Salute:

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## BMorrison

This proposed shenanigans wouldn't keep current owners of say... Ball Pythons? From keeping them without some sort of fine or having to give up your pet would it?

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## herpmajor

I know we can stop this thing. I am having everyone I know write a letter even if they dont keep snakes.

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## Purrrfect9

Folks, don't forget to notify your local Herp society to help fight this as well! I recieved an e-mail about this last night from the leader of OCHS (Oklahoma City Herp. Society) and we all plan on writing letters as well.

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## herpmajor

> Folks, don't forget to notify your local Herp society to help fight this as well! I recieved an e-mail about this last night from the leader of OCHS (Oklahoma City Herp. Society) and we all plan on writing letters as well.


Good Idea!

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## Sputnik

This goes against free trade between the states to start with, the destruction of commerce in this industry/hobby which affects all the states revenue gathering and there are a number of other things it goes against as well.... 

This should be posted on all reptile forums. Print outs at show etc. All the big names need to step up to the plate on this as well as the hobbiest who has 1 ball python or 1 boa, lizard, turtle or can just show support!

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## OhBalls

Just posted this on my rescue site as well....

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## RBCpythons

That is sad, why would they do such a thing??? :Sad:

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## frankykeno

Please note there were two ongoing threads on this topic so I've merged them together.

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## Sputnik

If I can add, if you own a website.... put this on your home page in plain view so it is seen first!

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## FL0OD

Someone really sharp needs to put together a petition like letter that everyone can stick there names on and post it on the net so that we can send it in.  You could add a place on the bottom where everyone could put all their information.  Wish I was net savy enough to do it.  Just an idea.

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## dalvers63

> Someone really sharp needs to put together a petition like letter that everyone can stick there names on and post it on the net so that we can send it in.  You could add a place on the bottom where everyone could put all their information.  Wish I was net savy enough to do it.  Just an idea.


Better than a petition is to go to the comment area and directly comment. This will have MUCH more impact on the committee than an anonymous petition. Take your time, form a well written, non-inflammatory comment and make sure that your grammar, spelling and punctuation are as perfect as you can make them.

The more people that comment on this, the more chance we will have to get some reason inserted instead of hysteria on the part of USFWS.

Here is a link directly to the comment area. The bill we are interested in is the second one in the list. Comments are being taken through April 30th. Keep in mind that this is just the first step in investigating the problem. While this is nowhere near becoming law, being vocal and representing ourselves well is a good thing to do from the very beginning.

http://www.regulations.gov/search/se...d=117DB9F243E8

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## bender29

Another idea is if someone wanted to start a Digg?

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## neilgolli

In an effort to write the best most effect letter I'm going to wait until Monday or Tuesday of next week in order to pull some hard facts to submit regarding the 10 areas they are most concerned with (listed below). 

I will contact florida fish and wildlife and try and get the approximate number of individuals that have a permit to exhibit or sell reptiles in Florida.  

I will contact Erin Williams at the branch of invasive species with Federal Fish and Wildlife and aim to get more detailed information regarding the procedures of a change in the proposed rules along with a long term time line of events that we can expect to take place.  

I will contact PIJAC (http://www.pijac.org) to ensure they are aware of the issue and see where and how they can support us.  

I will share all the information that I uncover as soon as physically possible and share it with the community.  





"We are soliciting public comments and supporting data to gain 
additional information and specifically seek comment on the following 
questions:
    (1) What regulations does your State have pertaining to the use, 
transport, or production of Python, Boa and Eunectes genera?
    (2) How many species in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera are 
currently in production for wholesale or retail sale, and in how many 
and which States?
    (3) How many businesses sell Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
    (4) How many businesses breed Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
    (5) What are the annual sales for Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
    (6) Please provide the number of Python, Boa or Eunectes species, 
if any, permitted within each State.
    (7) What would it cost to eradicate Python, Boa or Eunectes 
individuals or populations, or similar species, if found?
    (8) What are the costs of implementing propagation, recovery, and 
restoration programs for native species that are affected by Python, 
Boa or Eunectes species, or similar snake species?
    (9) What State-listed species would be impacted by the introduction 
of Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
    (10) What species have been impacted, and how, by Python, Boa or 
Eunectes species?"

----------


## BulldogBalls

First BSL (Breed Specific Legislation) and now they are going to try Species Specific?  That's great.  I already had a lot on my plate with people thinking the American Pit Bull Terrier and other "game dog breeds" are the only dogs on earth capable of biting someone.  They will never stop, will they?  

Somehow it seems they don't understand that banning something only makes it more appealing to the people that actually do bad things.  No matter if they have one animal taken, they'll just go get another.  No matter if at some point they can't find that type of animal anymore they'll just get a different one and start the process all over again.

I'm glad I have a lot of ink in my printer as I am printing out a letter for each of my family members, friends, and neighbors.  And trust me, that's a lot!  I'm glad they trust me and just sign whatever official letter I send to them heh.  Count me for about 200 signed letters!

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## cardell75

I am currently in discussions with a legal representative about the best way to organize and voice our concerns to the appropriate elected officials , and also address these concerns with FWS. I will post any replies or ideas here. I would also volunteer a domain and web space for any web based initiatives that are presented.

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## herpmajor

> I'm glad I have a lot of ink in my printer as I am printing out a letter for each of my family members, friends, and neighbors.  And trust me, that's a lot!  I'm glad they trust me and just sign whatever official letter I send to them heh.  Count me for about 200 signed letters!


Thats awsome. :Good Job:

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## Blu Mongoose

I will have to round up as many responses as possible. I would hate my hobby to be over before I even get a good start. We are still having to worry about breed specific crap on dogs.  First the government wants in our bedrooms, now they want to take our pets,. :Mad:

----------


## Otter_23

PLEASE    PLEASE     PLEASE    PLEASE

Find the time to write a letter and send it.  You may think there are enough people doing this already but the more they recieve the better.  If we are loud enough and send them enough (respectful) letters perhaps in the future they will think twice before trying this stuff again.  

We need to let our voices be heard.

----------


## Sputnik

> In an effort to write the best most effect letter I'm going to wait until Monday or Tuesday of next week in order to pull some hard facts to submit regarding the 10 areas they are most concerned with (listed below). 
> 
> I will contact florida fish and wildlife and try and get the approximate number of individuals that have a permit to exhibit or sell reptiles in Florida.  
> 
> I will contact Erin Williams at the branch of invasive species with Federal Fish and Wildlife and aim to get more detailed information regarding the procedures of a change in the proposed rules along with a long term time line of events that we can expect to take place.  
> 
> I will contact PIJAC (http://www.pijac.org) to ensure they are aware of the issue and see where and how they can support us.  
> 
> I will share all the information that I uncover as soon as physically possible and share it with the community.  
> ...


A lot of the environmental concerns don't even apply in colder states because pythons and boas won't survive a single winter, let alone a fall or spring. 

It concerns me that at least they are gathering your private info and what they will do with it. And if you don't respond to the listed questions, do they dispose of your written response as a don't count one?

----------


## Entropy

What is kind of concerning is the amount of people I'm finding who are FOR the ban. I'm getting a lot of feedback from various places this was posted and wow....

----------


## cardell75

> What is kind of concerning is the amount of people I'm finding who are FOR the ban. I'm getting a lot of feedback from various places this was posted and wow....


Can you elaborate?

----------


## neilgolli

> A lot of the environmental concerns don't even apply in colder states because pythons and boas won't survive a single winter, let alone a fall or spring. 
> 
> It concerns me that at least they are gathering your private info and what they will do with it. And if you don't respond to the listed questions, do they dispose of your written response as a don't count one?


I don't mind giving up personal info.  I'm actually going to include all of my sales revenue income and expenses in my letter.  They want to here a bit about about the business side of things and I pay a fair share of taxes, both federal and sales tax.  I produce, buy and sell.  I spent nearly $300,000 this year.  Money I put back in the hands of other breeders and into the economy as a whole.  They are not stating they are going to take your animals away from you, they are trying to "protect" the native species.....

I'll ask about any requirements to the letters to Erin

----------


## neilgolli

> What is kind of concerning is the amount of people I'm finding who are FOR the ban. I'm getting a lot of feedback from various places this was posted and wow....


Are you on peta message boards?

----------


## Entropy

Some of the responses.
_
"Yes it is important. As in, it's a pretty damn good idea as long as exceptions are made for properly licensed and permitted individuals who can provide decent care and secure housing. As a zoo employee, it makes me absolutely sick to see the number of abuse and neglect cases that get dumped on us. A lot of them end up dying despite immediate support care when they get to us. I don't think the average yahoo should be able to casually buy exotic pets off the shelf that have special needs to stay healthy and comfortable, eg, iguanas and pythons. I wouldn't want to see well qualified private keepers banned from working with these species, but there needs to be a little more care and thought given to acquiring these animals. A basic license/permit situation would be a big step in the right direction of stopping the abuse and neglect that I see of these animals. And we surely do not need to take any more of them out of the wild. Sustainable captive breeding works just fine."_

_"I think this is a pretty good idea. I'm sure everyone will try to hang me for it, however:

While it is unforunate for people looking to purchase carpet and blood pythons and smaller boas, there isnt' any reason people would need a retic, anaconda, rock or burmese python in their home. While they are amazing animals, anything that is dangerous to one's neighbors shouldn't be kept. This is why you can't keep tigers or cobras without permits. Yes, there are plenty of people that take good care of large snakes, and confine them properly, but there are more people that don't. They wind up torturing the animal, killing it, or simply disposing of it in the most convienent manner.

Large pythons and anacondas are a SERIOUS threat to natural wildlife. This includes birds, mammals, and the incredible American alligator, which only in the last couple of decades has recovered its numbers. Encroaching species in the florida everglades is the next natural disaster, which we can't avoid forever if irresponsible people are continued to be allowed to simply drop their unwanted pythons when they reach 12 ft+. If we don't want this legislation, than we have to allow people to euthanize their unwanted animals, like we do with shelter dogs and cats, and no one wants that.

This will not stop the trade either. People can continue to sell instate. I believe expos are extremely detrimental by selling large snakes to people who buy them on impulse, thinking at best, they have years before the animals becomes umanagable, which simply isn't true. At worst, having no idea what they are taking on.

It is unfortunate that such legislation is paintbrushing over relatively harmless species that are easy to care for, such as carpet, blood, and tree pythons and boas. I request that people direct their complaints towards THIS part of the legislation, hoping it is modified to allow for the continued trade in harmless, managable spcecies."_

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## JASBALLS

Hey Guys, JasCorns here. Whats all the fuss about? We buy sell and ship Fat cornsnakes Not Ball pythons!! YUCKKYYYY... :Salute:  :Salute:

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## neilgolli

> Hey Guys, JasCorns here. Whats all the fuss about? We buy sell and ship Fat cornsnakes Not Ball pythons!! YUCKKYYYY...


The colors and number of morphs are getting closer.....

I'm thinish, my momma's not, but were both people

----------


## JASBALLS

> The colors and number of morphs are getting closer.....
> 
> I'm thinish, my momma's not, but were both people


HAHAHA!!! 

On a serious note. I'm going to write a letter to these Jack...
But I'm going to forward a copy of my letter here. For approval.. Should take me a few days to get the Bad words out of it though.. Rock on Sisters and Brothers!!! 

WE GOT THIS!!!! :Good Job:

----------


## Sputnik

> I don't mind giving up personal info.  I'm actually going to include all of my sales revenue income and expenses in my letter.  They want to here a bit about about the business side of things and I pay a fair share of taxes, both federal and sales tax.  I produce, buy and sell.  I spent nearly $300,000 this year.  Money I put back in the hands of other breeders and into the economy as a whole.  They are not stating they are going to take your animals away from you, they are trying to "protect" the native species.....
> 
> I'll ask about any requirements to the letters to Erin


Isn't info they'd already have access to anyway? I'm just asking, not poking a stick at you....

----------


## CeraDigital

> What is kind of concerning is the amount of people I'm finding who are FOR the ban. I'm getting a lot of feedback from various places this was posted and wow....


There's a guy on Mike Wilbanks' forum that I posted this on preaching that this is a great idea. He's doing the same on Bob's forum. People keep seeming to buy it, when they don't realize, when you give the government an inch, they take a mile. The guys had a hard on for me for a while, with any debate, being a "know it all"...

----------


## neilgolli

> Isn't info they'd already have access to anyway? I'm just asking, not poking a stick at you....


The IRS has it, but they don't talk to Fish and wildlife and fish and wild life has not real avenue for getting that info.

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## Patrick Long

Im speechless

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## JASBALLS

> Im speechless


Thats a first! This must be bad...

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## tjteach14

In there bill then are commenting on the effects of agricultural areas...What is grown in the Everglades???  As far as I know most of the Everglades has been established as National wetland parks.

The majority of agricultural producinig states do not support an evironment which any of these snakes can thrive in, let alone survive a single winter.

Key points to consider when writing.


Does anyone know if they are generally targeting the lowe states with this?  I haven't been able to get a clear picture from my breif read throughs of the proposed legislation.

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## Sputnik

> Thats a first! This must be bad...



Nah, he was eating baby back ribs with sauce!

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## Patrick Long

they were beef actually!!!!!!!.........jerk lol  :ROFL:

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## Wolves-N-Dogs

Sry guys this is all about taxes nothing more. They can't figure out how to tax breeders!  To many times i've gone to big shows Daytona and T'Park and have heard some of the big boys brag about making BIG BUCKS.

Remember this for the most part is a cash Biz. Do think they all report it to the IRS? :ROFL:

----------


## ladywhipple02

An online petition has been created: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/boasandpythonsban/

I agree, however, that it might be better if we gather our data and write our letters or comment on their site. Remember, they are leaving this open for us... they are giving us an opportunity to prove to them why this would not be a good thing for the community or the economy. They want DATA. So let's give it to them!

----------


## Fearless

> Sry guys this is all about taxes nothing more.


I think you are wrong on that aspect, think many of the problems that they are trying to use as examples are just poor thought processes.  Think  that its obvious that irresponsible pet owners have ruined many good things in this country, and not opposed to people needing a permit for large species so that the good guys have a fighting chance at keeping the animals they choose to love.  

Think alot of these laws come from lack of education and people assuming a python gets 20 feet long and will kill you. whether they are talking about balls, retics, or bloods. They are categorized into one.  

Parts of these laws are on the right track to the good of snakes, such as taking imports out of the hands of the petco's in this country. Can promise that people that want the pet cuz it might be neat to have, will not go thru the troubles of hunting down a breeder to get the pet they want to keep for a week or two.  

But as hobbyists read thru these regulations we need to realize that if we dont agree with so much as one part of these thoughts that we need to voice our opinion and shut down the uneducated idiots trying to quitely pass laws without the general publics knowledge.  

As person stated earlier about how great this law is cuz it will stop irresponsible people, but you dont realize it will stop the people that do the best for there animals.  If these are your thoughts, you are just as bad as any ignorant person that thinks snakes are evil.  Voice your opinion also and state that as you may agree to some parts of this law, it is still being over generalized and needs to be thought out more logically.

----------


## Seneschal

I wrote up a rough draft...anybody wanna edit it or add/take out something? I tried to appeal to the "american pride" "democracy" thing as well as the economical standpoint.

_To whom it may concern,
I am writing in response to the recent proposed bill regarding the Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera. I am highly concerned about the repercussions this bill will cause should it be passed; in addition to stifling the entrepreneurial nature of Americans with an interest in the reptiles addressed by the bill and thus causing the US federal government to lose out on all of the sales and transportation taxes that are currently gained and will in the futureassuming that the bill does not, as I hope, passit will also cause a great economical recession in multiple economies. Not only will import and export tariffs from the hundreds of thousands of imported and exported animals each year be lost, so too will the jobs of thousands of people both in our country and in Africa and South America. We will loose, in effect, an entire economy; the export and import of these animals is a major source of income for many people, and many businesses would go out of business without the ability to import and export these animals. Additionally many businesses which breed in the USA and sell in the USA almost exclusively, but ship the animals out of state to make more sales, would suffer an enormous cut in profits, and would end up going out of business as well, possibly costing the federal government more money in social security and unemployment, and most certainly losing a great deal of money injected directly into the economy and stimulating it.

Not only are hobbyists and breeders and importers affected, so too will all retail stores featuring reptiles and reptile care equipment. When breeders are no longer able to transport between states, pet stores will no longer be able to carry many of the common species of python and boas and eunectes, because they will not be able to purchase the animals. Because they will not be able to sell the animals, many might cease to carry and sell much of the reptile based merchandise such as bedding, tanks, screen enclosures, heating elements, heat lamps, feeder rodents, heat cord, heat tape, flexwatt, mite treatment chemicals, cleaning chemicals, snake water bowls, misting equipment, humidifiers, thermometers, hygrometers, proportional thermostats, rack systems, tubs, rodent cages, rodent bedding, rodent water bottles, wooden climbing logs, snake hides, half-log hides, heat bulbs, electronic heat emitters, etc. which make up a startlingly large portion of money directly injected into the pet economy. Because of the sudden, widespread, and drastic drop in sales, many companies which design and manufacture these products will go out of business or file for bankruptcy, and widespread downsizing will result in enormous job losses. These workers will have to search for more work in an economy already in recess, and will be spending less money themselves, further exacerbating the recent rise in home mortgages falling through as people are unable to make payments, causing interest rates to rise higher and for it to be more difficult for people to secure loans. Because there will not be a new economy to replace the old one centering around reptiles and the things necessary to keep them, these workers, business owners, breeders, and importers will most likely not be able to find a job very easily, furthering the rise in unemployment rates.

On the other hand, rather than banning the import, export, and trade of these animals, I would suggest that you seek to broaden the recent laws passed in Florida which require permits for keeping, breeding, and selling certain species. I will not deny that it is a problem when irresponsible owners buy their small 18 Burmese python baby, and six months later dont know what to do with their now 6 foot Burmese baby, and release it into the wildhowever, we in the herpetological community do not condone such behavior or keeping practices, and we do not engage in irresponsible ownership, either. We do our best to teach new reptile owners proper ways to care for and keep their pets in such a way that they will not escape nor overwhelm their owners with their size. We do not affiliate ourselves with the irresponsible few who are doing such things. We as a community feel that this law should not be passed; there are always better solutions, always more democratic and positive solutions, than banning something altogether. We as a community are eager to search for and find a better way than this, a way which will make everyone happy and which will result in a more educated public, fewer loose animals, a more stable and enriched economy, and no bans on our hobbies, our businesses, our passions, and our pets. 

At the same time, it is also important to consider that many of the long-held truths people know about the animals we keep are little more than myth, speculation, and unfounded fears. Better than any ban would be a system created to inform the public; a system wherein any customer seeking to purchase a large snake must be given a booklet informing them how large and fast the animal will grow, its behavioral patterns, its housing requirements, feeding requirements, and lifespan, in an effort to give people an idea of what they are getting into in making the purchase. A person should not be able to just walk into a store, point out a Burmese python and walk out of it without so much as proving that they know how large the snake will gethowever, they should always have the right to buy that snake, to sell that snake, and to do so across state boundaries, if they are doing so in a safe and responsible manner.

Im just asking you to give us a chance to prove to you, and to the public, that we can do better than this. Americans are better than this ban thats being imposed, and moreover, all of us in the herpetological community want to strive to be better, for ourselves and for the sake of the animals. 

Thank you for your time and your consideration.
Sincerely, Brandi Hitchew_

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## mischevious21

wow Brandi- it looks good, and I couldent have put it better!

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## Alice

> I wrote up a rough draft...anybody wanna edit it or add/take out something? I tried to appeal to the "american pride" "democracy" thing as well as the economical standpoint. . . .  Thank you for your time and your consideration.
> Sincerely, Brandi Hitchew[/I]


Brandi and others, as I understand it, this is not a proposed bill, but regulations being put forth by U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services. There is a huge difference.  

A bill must be introduced by an elected official, voted on and passed by the majority and then signed into law by our President. Proposed regs are written by the federal bureaucrats in Washington, many times with help from public interest groups or lobbists. Federal bureaucrats are the people who work for the government. In many cases they are much more powerful than our elected officials, especially if they have been there a long time.  I've seen government agencies drag out implementation of a signed bill for years because they didn't like it or through proposed rule making, change the entire concept of a signed bill.  I think it is funny that _dictionary.com_ defines a bureaucrat as "an official who works by fixed routine without exercising intelligent judgment."   

We should be smart by sending well thought out comments and answers to the questions in the proposed regs to US Fish and Wildlife, the agency who has proposed these rules. But lets not stop there - we also need to hit our elected officials hard with letters. Heat can be applied by the politicians to the bureaucrats.  We need to find some fellow reptile enthusiasts in congress, especially if they are on the committees that oversee Fish and Wildlife. Does anyone know of any US elected official that could help? We may also want to identify those congressmen that are against taking away individual's rights with big governement regulations - they may be another source of help. Anyone know the names of these elected officials that we could get to help us?

As we send letters to our congressmen, it is important to send them to those whose districts include where you live.  "I live in your district and I am very concerned about the regulations being proposed by  . . . . "  It is also important to send letters to those congressmen who sit on the house and senate committees that oversee US Fish and Wildlife within the Department of Interior.  While they may not be sympathetic to our fight, the could be overwhelmed by the number of letters and decide there are bigger issues to concern themselves with, especially if they are up for election. I believe in the House it is the Committee on Natural Resources, sub-committee on Fisheries, Wildlife and Oceans. Their link follows.

http://resourcescommittee.house.gov/...page&Itemid=60

In the Senate, I  believe the committee with jurisdiction over US Fish and Wildlife is the Committee on Environment and Public Works, but I may be wrong here.  Their link is

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...n=Members.Home

We need to make sure that these committees have jurisdiction over Fish and Wildlife, but that may have to wait until tomorrow. If so, these are the congressmen and women we need to target in addition to our local representatives and senators.

Let's keep the good ideas flowing . . .

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## Shelby

Well, I have written my letter and will send it ASAP.. I'll share this with my friends and co-workers too.. since I work at a pet store, I'm sure I'll find people willing to send a letter or two.

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## Tim Marek

The Department Of the Interior's Fish and Wildlife Service has a proposal for comment on their website.

The proposal is to ban all private ownership of Pythons and Boas in the US. 

This can't be allowed to stand!

Please go to  the link below, file comments, and tell everyone you know!

http://www.fws.gov/policy/library/E8-1770.html

Tim Marek and Rosie Hill
Fallon Nevada

Owner of two wonderful ball pythons - Flash and Roses...

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## rabernet

Merged Tim's post with this existing one.

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## CeraDigital

I have contacted some invertebrate dealers and breeders, and this greatly effects them as well. Majority of their sales are shut down as they sell at the major, and minor, reptile shows. As well as that, this could effect them in the sense that afterwards, they are the minority of the fauna/zoological keeping community, and could easily be shut down as well. Majority of the invertebrate keepers are small time reptile keepers as well. We have the majority of their support, so far.

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## herpmajor

This is ome of the many reasons we should be thankfull for a forum like Ball-Pythons.net. If it wasnt for this site many of us would not had known and had an oppertunity to act. And it is so much more effective when we can compile our thought as we are now doing. What a wonderfull thing when people who share a common interest can come together and talk about and fight for what they love. Thank you...thank you...thank you to the people who make this site possible. :Teamwork:  :Salute:  And thank you to every member who comes together when someone needs help or the hobby is in danger. :Salute:

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## Larry Suttles

I will do my part in sending in as many letters as possible as well as hounding my congressman I'm sure that can't hurt..lol

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## rabernet

> I will do my part in sending in as many letters as possible as well as hounding my congressman I'm sure that can't hurt..lol


Larry, what about a show about this? Finding someone who knows this proposal well and can speak on it and emphasize that responses need to be professional in order to help prevent this?

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## BMorrison

I'm hoping this thing goes no where. After all it's just an inquiry, I imagine getting something passed after everyone turns in their letters and whatnot would be way to much of a struggle. Hoping for the best and mailing my letter.

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## dalvers63

> An online petition has been created: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/boasandpythonsban/
> 
> I agree, however, that it might be better if we gather our data and write our letters or comment on their site. Remember, they are leaving this open for us... they are giving us an opportunity to prove to them why this would not be a good thing for the community or the economy. They want DATA. So let's give it to them!


Yes, please spend your time writing comments on the actual comment site and not on the petition. You will get further and be heard more there than on the other.

Again, keep in mind that this is nowhere NEAR being made a law. This is just the fact-finding, very beginning inquiry which is why the submittal is so broad in listing all boas and pythons. Once some actual research is done and knowledgeable people are involved you will most likely see this restriction very limited.

 Also, they are NOT looking to take away anyone's pets. They are only working on limiting transportation (which is what the Lacey Act is all about). While this is still a big issue, please try and tone down the hysteria of "OMG!!! They're going to take away my snake!!!". Even if the submittal became a law, as it is now it would just mean that you wouldn't be able to ship the named snakes across state lines. Definitely a big issue and one that needs smart, articulate people to comment on and get their voices heard. I know we have a lot of people on this board and in the reptile community that hopefully will come forward with their knowledge and information to get this done right.

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## Tim Marek

I am so glad this group exists and someone was on the ball spreading the word before I was informed...

I am in the process of telling everyone I know and spreading the word any way I can.

Our two ball pythons, Flash and Roses  :Snake: , are like our children. When they were threatened by stupidity, I got very angry and started typing. That was 4 hours ago, and I am not done yet. 

Has everyone contacted their elected officials yet? How about their local TV station and offered to show on the evening News just how stupid this proposal is?

Don't take for granted this will just go away... WE ALL NEED TO BE VISIBLE AND VOCAL....

I look forward to putting this stupidity to bed and getting back to talking about important issues, like eating habits, etc....

All the best from Nevada

Tim and Rosie (and Flash  :Snake: and Roses :Snake: )

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## Gary Orner

OK the more research I have done I have found some bright spots. 

This is not a bill. This is just a Proposed statement. The vet breeders should remember back in 2001 when the National Human society tried to ban all reptile keeping all together. It did not even make it past the proposed state. 

We do need to keep together and be smart but this is not a bill trying to be passed. 

We need to stay focused on this as this will not go through as it is stated. It will be changed. I think what they are looking for is a final bill to shut down importing. The rest is just fluff to keep us off the main focus. 

I put a call into a few DNR agents I know. I KNOW I KNOW the enemy. But they have helped me in the past when others have said things about me and hots. 

But this is at the very beginning stages. This is nto the first time it has been tried. Just be smart about it and be calm. It should not pass. Do not send letters saying you should ban this but not that. Like 

You should ban large snakes in florida but the rest of the country is fine. THEY WILL USE THIS. They will use the part of you saying ban large snakes in florida.. Stick to facts. and support the hobby as a whole. 

I will post more info as I get it. But I think the main focus is the importing of large snakes. Where are 85% of large snakes imported to? FLORIDA...................

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## kimmys_balls

In my surfing this a.m I found a post from someone kind enough to share information on what needs to be done by us to prevent this from happening. If you belong to other forums PLEASE CROSS POST!
Consider this your homework assignment. Break out your pen and paper or drink a Monster, hit your keyboard and start composing your response ensuring you answer each and every question they require. Here is the actual proposal and what they want to hear!

DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

Fish and Wildlife Service

50 CFR Part 16

[FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015; 94410-1342-0000-N3]
RIN 1018-AV68


Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning 
Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera

AGENCY: Fish and Wildlife Service, Interior.

ACTION: Notice of inquiry.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service or We), are 
reviewing available biological and economic information on constrictor 
snakes in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to 
the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act. The importation and 
introduction of constrictor snakes into the natural ecosystems of the 
United States may

[[Page 5785]]

pose a threat to the interests of agriculture, horticulture, forestry; 
to the health and welfare of human beings; and to the welfare and 
survival of wildlife and wildlife resources in the United States. An 
injurious wildlife listing would prohibit the importation into, or 
transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the 
Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the 
United States by any means, without a permit. Permits may be issued for 
scientific, medical, educational, or zoological purposes. This document 
seeks comments from the public to aid in determining if a proposed rule 
is warranted.

DATES: We will accept comments received or postmarked on or before 
April 30, 2008.

ADDRESSES: You may submit comments by one of the following methods:
Federal eRulemaking Portal: http://www.regulations.gov. 
Follow the instructions for submitting comments.
U.S. mail or hand-delivery: Public Comments Processing, 
Attn: RIN 1018-AV68, Division of Policy and Directives Management, U.S. 
Fish and Wildlife Service, 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Suite 222, 
Arlington, VA 22203.
Instructions: We will not accept e-mail or faxes. We will post all 
comments on http://www.regulations.gov. This generally means that we 
will post any personal information you provide us (see the Public 
Comments section below for more information).

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Erin Williams, Branch of Invasive 
Species at (703) 358-2034 or erin_williams@fws.gov.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: On September 21, 2006, we received a 
petition from the South Florida Water Management District (SFWMD) 
requesting that Burmese pythons be considered for inclusion in the 
injurious wildlife regulations pursuant to the Lacey Act (18 U.S.C. 
42). SFWMD is concerned about the number of Burmese pythons found in 
Florida, particularly in the Everglades National Park. We are looking 
at obtaining information on constrictor species in the Python, Boa and 
Eunectes genera for possible addition to the injurious wildlife list 
under the Lacey Act.
The regulations contained in 50 CFR part 16 implement the Lacey 
Act, as amended. Under the terms of the injurious wildlife provisions 
of the Lacey Act, the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to 
prohibit the importation and interstate transportation of species 
designated by the Secretary as injurious. Injurious wildlife are those 
species, offspring, and eggs that are injurious or potentially 
injurious to wildlife and wildlife resources, to human beings, and to 
the interests of forestry, horticulture, or agriculture of the United 
States. Wild mammals, wild birds, fish, mollusks, crustaceans, 
amphibians, and reptiles are the only organisms that can be added to 
the injurious wildlife list. The lists of injurious wildlife are at 50 
CFR 16.11-16.15. If the process initiated by this notice results in the 
addition of a species to the list of injurious wildlife contained in 50 
CFR part 16, their importation into or transportation between States, 
the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any 
territory or possession of the United States would be prohibited, 
except by permit for zoological, educational, medical, or scientific 
purposes (in accordance with permit regulations at 50 CFR 16.22), or by 
Federal agencies without a permit solely for their own use.

Public Comments

This notice of inquiry solicits biological, economic, or other data 
on adding species in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera to the list of 
injurious wildlife. This information, along with other sources of data, 
will be used to determine if these species are a threat, or potential 
threat, to those interests of the United States delineated above, and 
thus warrant addition to the list of injurious reptiles in 50 CFR 
16.15.
You may submit your comments and materials concerning this notice 
of inquiry by one of the methods listed in the ADDRESSES section. We 
will not accept comments sent by e-mail or fax or to an address not 
listed in the ADDRESSES section. We will not accept anonymous comments; 
your comment must include your first and last name, city, State, 
country, and postal (zip) code. Finally, we will not consider hand-
delivered comments that we do not receive, or mailed comments that are 
not postmarked, by the date specified in the DATES section.
We will post your entire comment--including your personal 
identifying information--on http://www.regulations.gov. If you provide 
personal identifying information in addition to the required items 
specified in the previous paragraph, such as your street address, phone 
number, or e-mail address, you may request at the top of your document 
that we withhold this information from public review. However, we 
cannot guarantee that we will be able to do so.
Comments and materials we receive, as well as supporting 
documentation we used in preparing this notice of inquiry, will be 
available for public inspection on http://www.regulations.gov, or by 
appointment, during normal business hours, at the U.S. Fish and 
Wildlife Service, 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Arlington, VA 22203.
We are soliciting public comments and supporting data to gain 
additional information and specifically seek comment on the following 
questions:
(1) What regulations does your State have pertaining to the use, 
transport, or production of Python, Boa and Eunectes genera?
(2) How many species in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera are 
currently in production for wholesale or retail sale, and in how many 
and which States?
(3) How many businesses sell Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(4) How many businesses breed Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(5) What are the annual sales for Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(6) Please provide the number of Python, Boa or Eunectes species, 
if any, permitted within each State.
(7) What would it cost to eradicate Python, Boa or Eunectes 
individuals or populations, or similar species, if found?
(8) What are the costs of implementing propagation, recovery, and 
restoration programs for native species that are affected by Python, 
Boa or Eunectes species, or similar snake species?
(9) What State-listed species would be impacted by the introduction 
of Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(10) What species have been impacted, and how, by Python, Boa or 
Eunectes species?

Dated: January 11, 2008.
Lyle Laverty,
Assistant Secretary for Fish and Wildlife and Parks.
[FR Doc. E8-1770 Filed 1-30-08; 8:45 am]
BILLING CODE 4310-55-P 

~*~ Kim  :Salute:

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## Gary Orner

Listen to Brian's Cast guys.

http://thereptileroom.org/forum/inde...opic=12445&hl=

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## Hardwikk

Are Rosy Boas included? What's the use of proposing this ban!?

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## Nate

I don't quite understand how ball pythons have been lumped into this.  What grounds to they have to say that ball pythons, and other small pythons/boas are a threat to the environment?  

I realize that there are quite a few animals out there that do pose risks to the environment and even humans, but I just don't understand how smaller reptiles are suddenly targeted as a danger and threat to the wild...

Is there any significant proof of people releasing ball pythons and it causing a problem? anywhere?

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## nixer

you can go on the site and send them comments on this 

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...000064803a565f

click the button next to add comments!

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## Chuck

We as a community should NOT make any concessions  to ban large constrictors to save the rest. I think if they get this passed they are fine with that but I think what they want is for us to offer up the ban on the big ones as a compromise to keep a larger ban from going through. It is very important for us to not give into giving up anything. They sure will not stop after they get even a small piece  of this passed so we should not feel obliged to make it any easier for them for any of it. We should keep it nice and professional but totally blanket them with negative response to this idea.


Chuck

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## Ben_Renick

> We as a community should NOT make any concessions  to ban large constrictors to save the rest. I think if they get this passed they are fine with that but I think what they want is for us to offer up the ban on the big ones as a compromise to keep a larger ban from going through. It is very important for us to not give into giving up anything. They sure will not stop after they get even a small piece  of this passed so we should not feel obliged to make it any easier for them for any of it. We should keep it nice and professional but totally blanket them with negative response to this idea.
> 
> 
> Chuck


100% agree with that...  We need to fight for everything.  I love my big snakes to death...  If we give them an inch, they'll take a mile.  This bill would effect everything from pet stores, rodent suppliers, reptile supply companies, feed companies that supply the rodent suppliers, etc.  People will lose their jobs!  

Big snakes cannot and will not be a problem other than FL, along with every other boa, python, and eunectus, they cannot thrive in these different enviorments, it's either going to be too dry, too cold, etc.  There is absolutly no reason to fight for just the smaller snakes...  Also take into account, certain snakes will slowly fade away in captivity over the years.  Without interstate trade, lets take Green Anacondas for instance, there aren't enough breeders out there to keep these snakes going in captivity.  No one is going to try and breed Greens and move 30+ offspring locally...  Just wont happen...  Not even to mention things like the Boelens Python which will sooner or later be non-existent in captivity aside from zoos.

Please, lets fight for everything!! :Taz:

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## Dracosdad

The USF&W Service's Notice of Inquiry says "we are looking at obtaining information on constrictor species in the _Python, Boa and Eunectes genera_ for possible addition to the injurious wildlife list under the Lacey Act." (my emphasis)

So this wouldn't include, among others, carpets or GTP's? They're in family _pythonidae_ but in genus _morelia_, at least for now.   And how could the introduction of the rubber boa be harmful when it's already native to the northwestern U.S.?

Doesn't sound like much thought has been devoted to the proposed new regulation (right, nothing new) and I seriously doubt that the drafters had a clue about the larger domestic, captive bred ball python scene.   

Obviously everyone must take this seriously and respond with vigor and alarm, I'd be stunned if any regulation went further than Burmese Pythons -- due to the Everglades problem -- and maybe other of the largest snakes.  

Something else that might be going on here is a sort of stealthy response to complaints about the whole pet reptile pet scene, fueled to a a degree by the usual irresponsible sellers and buyers.

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## Westcoast

I will post a more thought out response later but , One point that needs to be outlined to the feds is the following. How many species would be exstinct today if it wernt for the importing and captive breeding by breeders in this hobby. Hogg Island Boas GONE!  Cay Caulker Boas GONE!!  Pearl Island ? Private breeders have picked up the slack where many countries have failed!  :Taz:

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## aeio540

I am typing up a letter today. . .

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## Sasquatch Art

I am sure that there have been irresponsible keepers that have released some type of snake in the wild. 
BUT
A lot of people are not thinking about the environmental disasters that can occur in Florida. In 1992 Hurricane Andrew hit, that storm destroyed so many buildings, including zoos. The zoos even reported that they lost some reptile species. 

Theoretically if the zoo lost large constrictors and maybe some of the houses that were damaged lost their pets which can cause a small population of boids in Florida. Burmese pythons for instance can have 20-80+ eggs. I am pretty sure you can see the chain. 

Then when hurricane Charley and other hurricanes that year hit...those again ruined many homes.
I think these government officials need to think about these events and not just jumps to the conclusion that anyone with any type of snake is going to release it. 

(Sorry if I repeated what another member has wrote, I have not read through everyone's comments yet)

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## Sputnik

This is the scary part (As if it wasn't bad enough). If Boas and Pythons are added to the "injurious wildlife" list, it carries a lot of extra baggage. Not just a ban on import and interstate transport, but a ban on ownership.... 

So if your thinking, oh well, I'll still have my pets even if this ban goes through, then think again! 

This proposed ban is something even PETA and Co couldn't of dreamed of having put forward! 

So I urge everyone to contact your state reps, not just the USF&W, push the economical damage this ban would bring to your state.... get the state reps on your side if possible.

Push the facts, the impact on pet stores that sell heating, feeders, bedding supplies etc for us keepers is a fact. Not to mention the cash flow the states and federal government get from sales from private breeders/businesses that sell the same and more.... get it in their minds the impact it will have. And the impact it will have on those families for which it is their sole lively hood. 

Get signatures on petitions (Smaller family owned pet stores may allow it, inform them! and see if they will allow a petition be in their store to sign) and send a copy to your state reps. Research the facts, get a number on the amount of reptiles keepers for them to see just how big this hobby/industry is in your state, nation wide.

If you can get your state reps to write and oppose this, then do so, it carries some added weight.

USF&W need to be burried in the form of opposition to this proposed ban.

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## cassandra

Just finished my letter and printed it...gonna let it sit on my desk for a while and then read it again, make sure it's okay...

Happy Monday!  :Mad:

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## Chuck

Here is a post by a senior member of another forum 
I frequent I want to share it as I think he has good things to say. 




> I was asked by another member for some talking points when writing a letter it USFW about the proposed ban that will destroy our hobby.
> 
> Keep in mind that Govt will not be moved by our collective passion for reptiles. Our only hope is a more reasoned approach that appeals to the issues with wich Govt is typically concerned. Thjat said here are some ideas:
> I think one problem people have is that they think that the Govt, actually cares about their rights, wich it clearly does not. Too many people write letters that emphasise how much they "love their burms" , these comments will fall on deaf ears.
> 
> I would suggest stressing the economic impact and total lack of ecological impact.
> 
> Point out that to impliment any new regulations would cost money, how do they plan to pay for the enforcement? This arguement has sunk several proposed bans around the country, including im my state of Washington. In the end this single issue, and not the pleadings of snake owners saved us at the state and local level.
> 
> ...

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## PythonWallace

> Here is a post by a senior member of another forum 
> I frequent I want to share it as I think he has good things to say.


Thanks for posting these points.

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## Chuck

I also wanted to say it would be a good idea to post your letters before sending them. It will help everyone with writing there letter and give the poster a chance to polish there letter. It will also create an information pool for some others to template for there letter who may not be as fluent on the issues to make a much stronger point direct in the proper areas.



Chuck

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## MedusasOwl

Thank you so much for passing this on, I've posted it around other places too.  Hopefully together as a community Herpers can help the feds to see sense!

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## icygirl

> I also wanted to say it would be a good idea to post your letters before sending them. It will help everyone with writing there letter and give the poster a chance to polish there letter. It will also create an information pool for some others to template for there letter who may not be as fluent on the issues to make a much stronger point direct in the proper areas.


Hear, hear. I haven't written my letter yet because I want it to be as informative and to the point as I can make it. So if you've already written yours, please share!  :Snake:

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## Kristy

I am going over to my parents house to speak with my step father who is an attorney. We are going to write a letter to USFW, as well as Idahos officials. 

It will be sad, sad day if they pass this. I hope they get the point when they get overwhelmed with letters.

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## pythontricker

If this rediculous law does get passed (god forbid) do we have to give away the snakes we already own?

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## CeraDigital

> If this rediculous law does get passed (god forbid) do we have to give away the snakes we already own?


From what I see, no. This is saying however, that any snakes you own, covered on this proposal, are forbidden/restricted from being moved from state to state. Basically if you move to a different state, your forced to give up your pet(s). Whether it be sell them locally, turn them in for adoption, or have them destroyed. This isn't good at all...

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## Hardwikk

> Are Rosy Boas included? What's the use of proposing this ban!?


Since my question/post (the one I quoted above) about Rosy Boas doesn't seem to have been answered, I'm just making sure people see it by posting it again. Also, this ban doesn't include colubrids so you won't have to worry about "all your snakes" (even though I'm sure many of you like your boids more than your colubrids).

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## Patrick Long

why dont you read the bill. thats what we need people to do.


We need people to actually read the bill, not just ask questions about what is affected. Read it, understand it, respond to it.

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## slither9192

> Since my question/post (the one I quoted above) about Rosy Boas doesn't seem to have been answered, I'm just making sure people see it by posting it again. Also, this ban doesn't include colubrids so you won't have to worry about "all your snakes" (even though I'm sure many of you like your boids more than your colubrids).


They are not in the genera boa, python, or eunectes so it does not ban the import or export of rosy boas.

Here is a list of the snakes that can not be imported or exported if this passes.

Pythons
_P. anchietae_ Angolan Python

_P. curtus_  Blood Python

_P. molurus_ Indian Python (burmese)

_P. regius_  Ball Python  :Tears: 

_P. reticulatus_ Reticulated Python

_P. sebae_  African rock Python

_P. timoriensis_ Timor python


Boas
I am not going to list all but any boa that is _Boa constrictor ..._ is on the list.

Eunectes
_E. murinus_ Green Anaconda

_E. notaeus_ Yellow Anaconda

If I forgot anything please add. I am deffinately going to write a (peaceful) letter because this is just outrageous. I'm counting on this not passing because I plan on breeding BP's but if it does this list will be needed.

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## greenmonkey51

I hope that the import portion of this policy passes. There is no reason to keep bringing in any wild caught snakes when there is already good size breeding pools here. I bet you solve a lot of care problems in stores fast when they can't buy wild caught or captive hatching balls for 5$-10$. Petco would stop selling ball pythons quick.

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## CeraDigital

> I hope that the import portion of this policy passes. There is no reason to keep bringing in any wild caught snakes when there is already good size breeding pools here. I bet you solve a lot of care problems in stores fast when they can't buy wild caught or captive hatching balls for 5$-10$. Petco would stop selling ball pythons quick.


How would this be justifiable when many species, as well as sub-species, are not established in captivity yet? Sure it "could" solve the problem with captive hatched Ball Pythons, and other species, winding up in pet stores; but it hurts many more causes. Take the Southern African Rock, and Boelens Python for instance...

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## Shelby

The boelen's python would not be affected.. it's Morelia.

I don't think they should restrict importation either though.. lots of our morphs come from Africa! It doesn't address the issue they're trying to solve here either.

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## lillyorchid

*I'd like to just address that EVERYONE who owns any kind of herp really needs to write in!!!* 

Today I faced off with a group of "snake lovers" who didn't own any kind of boa or python. When I brought this subject to their attention, there reaction was pretty much _"oh well doesn't hurt us at all or our snakes..."_. I was so shocked! I told them if this gets passed, don't be surprised if your snakes are the next to be banned from being imported, sold, etc. Once they start calling you a criminal for wanting to privately own one type of animal, it's not long before they're going to move onto another. And then another and then another.

I could write a book about how unjust I feel most restrictive animal laws are, but to sum it up; I don't see how the government has a right to tell you what you can and cannot own in the privacy of your own home.

"I can see the day coming when even your home garden is gonna be against the law."
- Bob Dylan, 1983

Me too, Bob, me too.

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## Jay_Bunny

I do not believe there should be a ban on ANY snake or import bans. It is true that some of our most beautiful morphs of ball python come from Africa and if there was to be an import ban, then we would never get to see what awsome snakes there could have been. I want to breed ball pythons and this will affect me greatly if it goes into effect. I have not commented yet but I will write something up tomorrow (I take my time writing something up because I want it to sound like I know what I'm talking about) and send it in. I will also talk to my family and friends about writing something up.

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## BulldogBalls

Seneschal - I LOVE your letter.  I hope you don't mind but I edited and added to it for my own letters.. is this OK?  You made excellent points and I couldn't have said it better, I just added a bit.  Here it is:

_To whom it may concern,
I am writing in response to the recent proposed bill regarding the Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera. I am highly concerned about the repercussions this bill will cause should it be passed.   In addition to stifling the entrepreneurial nature of Americans with an interest in the reptiles addressed by the bill and thus causing the Unites States federal government to lose out on all of the sales and transportation taxes that are currently gained and will be in the future (assuming that the bill does not pas) it will also cause a great economical recession in multiple economies. Not only will import and export tariffs from the hundreds of thousands of imported and exported animals each year be lost, so too will the jobs of thousands of people both in our country and in Africa and South America. We will loose, in effect, an entire economy.  The export and import of these animals is a major source of income for many people, and many businesses would go out of business without the ability to import and export these animals either within or without the United States.  Additionally many businesses which breed in the United States and sell in the United States almost exclusively, but ship the animals out of state to make more sales, would suffer an enormous cut in profits, and would end up going out of business as well, possibly costing the federal government more money in social security and unemployment, and most certainly losing a great deal of money injected directly into the economy and stimulating it.

Not only are hobbyists and breeders and importers affected, so too will all retail stores featuring reptiles and reptile care equipment. When breeders are no longer able to transport between states, pet stores will no longer be able to carry many of the common species of python and boas and eunectes, because they will not be able to purchase the animals. Because they will not be able to sell the animals, many might cease to carry and sell much of the reptile based merchandise such as bedding, tanks, screen enclosures, heating elements, heat lamps, feeder rodents, heat cord, heat tape, flexwatt, mite treatment chemicals, cleaning chemicals, snake water bowls, misting equipment, humidifiers, thermometers, hygrometers, proportional thermostats, rack systems, tubs, rodent cages, rodent bedding, rodent water bottles, wooden climbing logs, snake hides, half-log hides, heat bulbs, electronic heat emitters, etc. Which make up a startlingly large portion of money directly injected into the pet economy. Because of the sudden, widespread, and drastic drop in sales, many companies which design and manufacture these products will go out of business or file for bankruptcy, and widespread downsizing will result in enormous job losses. These workers will have to search for more work in an economy already in recess, and will be spending less money themselves, further exacerbating the recent rise in home mortgages falling through as people are unable to make payments, causing interest rates to rise higher and for it to be more difficult for people to secure loans.  Because there will not be a new economy to replace the old one centering around reptiles and the things necessary to keep them, these workers, business owners, breeders, and importers will most likely not be able to find a job very easily, furthering the rise in unemployment rates.

This law would also negatively affect the economy of various cities in the United States that rely in part on business generated from reptile shows and expos across the country.  The reptile and herpetological society has a large impact on the community and these animals are gaining in popularity as pets as more breeders provide captive bred, socialized animals of rare color.  The cost for some of these animals of rare colors, called "morphs" can be tremendous, they are worth a lot of money due to the difficulty and knowledge required in producing, raising, and maintaining them.  Some of these animals can and do regularly cost and are purchased at prices exceeding ten, fifteen, and twenty thousand dollars.  These are prized animals produced by experienced, responsible, and knowlegable breeders whose lives depend and revolve around these species and this community.  Not to mention what it would cost to implement and enforce this law.  I cannot begin to comprehend the expense, it would be tremendous, unneccessary, unwarranted, and ineffective.  

There are very few species that get large enough to cause concern for human or other animal safety.  Ball Pythons (Python Regius)  Blood Pythons (Python Curtus Brongersmai, Python Curtus Breitensteini, Python Curtus Curtus)  among others, along with most Boa species and types do not get large enough to kill or seriously harm a human.  Most of these species do not get larger than eight feet in total length at adulthood.  Ball Pythons rarely exceed five feet in length and are extremely popular as pets.  

Reticulated Pythons(Python Reticulatus), the Anaconda species (Eunectes murinus, Eunectes notaeus, Eunectes Beniensis, Eunectes Deschauenseei),  African Rock Python species  (Python Sebae Sebae, Python Sebae Natalensis) Indian Python Species (Python Molurus)  including the most popular large snake the Burmese Python (Python Molurus Bivittatus) and others that do get over twelve or fifteen feet on average and that can reach extreme lengths of twenty feet or more, should be regulated not only for the safety of the humans involved but for the good of the snakes as well.  I do not believe that banning these animals will be effective or appropriate.

Most snakes not indigenous to the lower forty-eight states are incapable of surviving in the wild.  Snakes require warm temperatures and humidity.  My home state of Oregon would not sustain a wild population of large constricting species not indigenous to this area.  The winters are too cold and the summers are too dry.  Most of the states in the United States do not have climates that are conducive to the survival of these animals in the wild, either of the adults or of eggs resulting from escaped breeding age animals.  

On the other hand, rather than banning the import, export, and trade of these animals, I would suggest that you seek to broaden the recent laws passed in Florida which require permits for keeping, breeding, and selling certain species. I will not deny that it is a problem when irresponsible owners release their animals into the wild.  However, we in the herpetological community do not condone such behavior or keeping practices, and we do not engage in irresponsible ownership. We do our best to teach new reptile owners proper ways to care for and keep their pets in such a way that they will not escape nor overwhelm their owners with their size. We do not affiliate ourselves with the irresponsible few who are doing such things. We as a community feel that this law should not be passed.  We as a community are eager to search for and find a better way than this, a way which will make everyone happy and which will result in a more educated public, fewer loose animals, a more stable and enriched economy, and no bans on our hobbies, our businesses, our passions, and our pets.  Americans are better than this ban thats being imposed, and moreover, all of us in the herpetological community want to strive to be better, for ourselves and for the sake of the animals._ 

I will say please let me know if I got any info wrong, I am not terribly schooled on most species that would be effected by this but did try to do some info seeking on those animals I know little about to determine average adult sizes and what not.  I included a small list of specific species for affect though I know I did not include everything, I got tired of all the latin  :Very Happy:   but let me know if I got anything wrong or should include other animals etc.  This is my rough draft of Seneschals rough draft.

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## Desert

> I hope that the import portion of this policy passes. There is no reason to keep bringing in any wild caught snakes when there is already good size breeding pools here. I bet you solve a lot of care problems in stores fast when they can't buy wild caught or captive hatching balls for 5$-10$. Petco would stop selling ball pythons quick.


Agreed. Too bad they wouldn't also stop the cheap throw-away Russian tortoises brought in by the thousands every year.

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## Desert

> I don't quite understand how ball pythons have been lumped into this.


They really aren't lumped into this. It appears that way, but upon careful reading in the Federal Register, they state they are looking at species within these genera, not _all species_ within those genera. Thus my opinion is the little guys are/will be excluded.




> What grounds to they have to say that ball pythons, and other small pythons/boas are a threat to the environment?


Looking at the Burmese python issue, it appears rather arbitrary as to what species make it onto the Injurious Wildlife list and which don't. For example, Xenopus laevis. Those are established in several warm freshwater areas. They are clearly harmful to native wildlife. Like Burmese pythons, however, they cannot survive winters in most of the USA. Yet X. laevis is not on the Injurious Wildlife list.

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## Chuck

Here is a letter from A guy named Ben Team it is well written and covers the good talking points on this issue. I am of the schools of thought that this is what should be put forward to USFW.




> To Whom It May Concern:
> 
> It has recently come to my attention that the USFW is considering adding snakes of the genera Python, Eunectes, and Boa to the list of injurious species and as such prohibiting their importation and inter-state commerce under the Lacey Act. This will affect the interstate commerce of between 20-25 species (depending on the taxonomic authority) of reptile that are commonly propagated in the United States for the pet trade. The addition of these species to the injurious species list is not warranted, and to do so would be a mistake both politically and economically.
> 
> The goal to protect our natural ecosystems and the wildlife therein is certainly one of the greatest responsibilities we have as citizens, elected officials, and wildlife officers. As an environmental educator and the Director of a non-profit nature center, my desire to protect the natural environment is well documented. However, the proposed actions will do little to help this goal, and in actuality may do significant damage to some of the ecosystems of concern.
> 
> I am sure your time is very valuable, and so I will list the reasons this is proposal is inappropriate below and try to be as brief as possible:
> 
> q The species targeted in this proposal are all of tropical or subtropical distribution. They do not possess adaptive capacity to survive freezing winter temperatures. They do not possess hibernating behaviors or physiology, and as such will perish upon exposure to freezing or near freezing temperatures. In the contiguous United States, only the southern most portion of Florida could realistically provide a suitable habitat for these species.
> ...

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## Laooda

I mailed my letter yesterday!  Curious to see if we get "thank you" litrature in return from this on!?!?!

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## Ophiuchus

Just thought of a quick solution to the problem....just change all the taxonomic names of these species and do away with _Python, Boa_, and _Eunectes!_

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## pythontricker

heres my letter. what do i do with it?To Whom it may concern:

I am a young man beginning a career in breeding and selling Ball Pythons.  Recently I have invested a large sum of money in the purchase of several Ball Pythons in order to breed and sell them nation wide.  This has been a passion of mine for some time, and I seek to pursue a career in herpetology.  If this ban is passed, there will be a major problem in the economics of the herping community. With this ban imposed many of the large national breeders who ship world wide will be forced to either release their snakes into the wild (which is what you do not want) or sell to the black market. Take into consideration all of the supplies sold by major retailers, such as Petco, and breeders all over the US. These supplies will no longer be sold and major tax dollars will decrease. In addition, the Ball Python that only grows up to 5 ft in length is a major stride in genetics. If you were to ban the selling of these beautiful snakes it would also be a major loss in the study of genetics. This is a snake that has been bred by many major breeders such as Adam Wysoki, Bob Clark, and many more to find many different color mutations and morphs using their knowledge of genetics. 

Now I would like to apologize for those who have been irresponsible and releasing their large Burmese Pythons into the everglades. I understand they have been eating animals who are essential to that particular eco-system. This is a major problem for Florida as a whole.  Florida is the only state in the US which it is possible for such an animal to survive, so it is unnecessary to impose this ban nation wide. It is not needed for it to be enforced in Florida. I feel that a simple solution is in order. For example, I believe that when a person goes to buy a larger snake such as a Burmese or Reticulated python, that the person purchasing the snake should fill out a simple husbandry care sheet, that asks questions like "how large will the snake get" or "what does tis snake need to eat". So I only ask that you please reconsider this decision and give the reptile community another chance to shape up and fly rite.
-Quinton Mendoza 

do some edditing etc. what ever. thanks.

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## Chuck

It is just my suggestion to leave anything about your hobby or how much money your snakes cost out. These letters are going to people who don't give a crap about our hobby and breeding and anything else we all do. I posted a letter a little further back in the thread written by a guy I have bought a few snakes from. It covers the sticking points the USFW will be looking at in dealing with this issue. I am sorry to bust on your letter, but I am just trying to help.


Chuck

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## NightLad

I believe it is vital to present ones self as a legitimate business owner, who pays taxes and thus supports the economy through his business.

It is one thing to ban a hobby, it is another to attack the livelihoods of tax-paying Americans. Reinforce this fact (a fact those proposing the ban want to gloss over) and you might just open some eyes.

My 2 cents.

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## Snakeman

you know im so tempted to write them a "threatening" letter, but i think i'll cool my jets down first before thinking of what to write(it's how i am).

quick question though.....let's say the this new ban passes and i want to move out of state with my snakes....would i be able to bring them along or would i not be able to?

and i keep seeing people that are worried about them  finding out about the electricity knowing that they have heat sources...what would they do if they found out you were keeping snakes like myself? would they take them away? fine me?

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## greenmonkey51

They're not banning keeping the snakes just traveling between states and imports. If you had to move states it wouldn't be that hard just to take them you. USFW would be more worried about breeders shipping out hundred of snakes, than a single family moving their pets. I've seen what USFW has done to dealers and it ain't pretty.

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## ravenspirit360

I really really hope we can beat this, this makes me very sad  :Sad:

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## neilgolli

Just a quick updated.  I have not been able to get ahold of Erin as of yet with federal fish and wildlife, I'll try again today and update the boards if I do.  I have talked with florida and they are going to get me numbers today or tomorrow on the total number of class 3 permits in the state plus a few other answers to a few questions....

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## lillyorchid

> They're not banning keeping the snakes just traveling between states and imports. If you had to move states it wouldn't be that hard just to take them you. USFW would be more worried about breeders shipping out hundred of snakes, than a single family moving their pets. I've seen what USFW has done to dealers and it ain't pretty.


In many states certian types and lengh of snakes are banned/illegal to have. I know here in Baltimore(city) MD we have a ban on any snake that is over 5 feet. If this passes I'd hate to see what their next move is going to be, because it probably will be banning the keeping of snakes all together. Like someone said earlier on this thread, give them an inch -- they will take a mile. We really need to fight hard to get this not to pass!

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## Eddie_Z

I have spoken my piece in support of my reptile family!

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## Kesslers Kreatures

i posted on that site where you can leave comments. I dont want this to happen!  :Sad:

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## SiscoReptiles

The summary is poorly written. They do not clearly state if they are inquiring about "ALL" Python, Boa and Eunectes genera as everyone is assuming or if they are inquiring about larger species. Don't get me wrong, I am against any federal level restrictions. If anything, restrictions should be done state by state. Name one species of constrictor that would cause an enviromental impact in Maine?  :Wink: 

Keep on guard, but keep in mind that this is "inquiry" for information, they have not even proposed a ban yet.

Rick




> SUMMARY: We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service or We), are reviewing available biological and economic information on constrictor snakes in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act.

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## bait4snake

I left them this comment
---------------------------------

Since 2002 I have been collecting and breeding some of the rarest and most beautiful python species on the planet.  I have invested a lot of disposable income and countless hours of effort maintaining my breeding colony.  It is not only a hobby but a passion and hopefully a small business in the very near future.  It is what I have been planning on to supplement my wife's income so I can keep working at my full time job and she can raise our children the right way.  If I succeed, this would also mean another small business the federal and state government would enjoy collecting taxes from.

If banning the importation and interstate sale of pythons and boas is established, all my years of effort will be for nothing.  On a side note, but nonetheless important, how is enacting this ban a legitimate role of government?  It protects nobody, and will only drive this trade into the black market.  We people who are deeply into this business/hobby take great care of our animals, and try our best to make sure they end up in the most responsible of hands.  True, there may be some who relinquish their responsibilities and not care for their animals properly, but they are the minority, and should be punished for their actions.  That's the legitimate role of our government: that we have the freedom to be responsible in our trade, and if we commit any crimes of abuse or neglect, we should be punished.

But to blanketly punish us all for crimes we never commited and ban a completely lawfull industry and market is the exact opposite of freedom.

Those who would pass such laws and ordinances most likely have never had the privelege of spending a year feeding and cleaning up after a beloved animal, then introduce them to a mate, to wait months for them to lay their eggs, to then wait a few more months incubating those precious eggs, and finally to watch as those tiny babies pip their little noses out of those eggs and you realize you were responsible for creating those little lives.  Then you see that rare genetic color mutation you've been hoping to reproduce and outbreed, or you see that endangered species hatch out of 8 more eggs!  This is what it means to us.  

We have done more for these species than any naturalist or environmentalist.  Our passion and the free market has saved these animals from extinction.  The Indian Python is hugely popular, as is the Dumeril's Boa... both on the endangered species list, and both are bred for love and for business, to sell to others who have that same love and business aspirations.

Our trade is the only hope for a lot of these animals that would otherwise be hunted to extinction or left to the ravages of jungles or human encroachment.  Our business aspirations and love for these animals make others appreciate them and influence them to be a part of it.  The look in children's eyes who see not only their first python, but a genetic mutation that makes them half white leaves children and adults alike in awe, and it keeps this whole thing going.

Please, take everything I have written into consideration.  This is important to a LOT of people, so let the people be the ones to decide this industry's fate.

Thank you for your time.

----------


## Shelby

Alrighty.. I've thought about it a few days.. here is my letter. Feel free to base your letter off it (I based mine off one posted above.. but I changed it considerably) and offer suggestions if you see any problems:

To Whom It May Concern,
It has come to my attention that the USFW is proposing adding 
snakes of the genera Python, Eunectes, and Boa to the list of 
injurious species under the Lacey Act. This will affect the 
interstate commerce and importation of many common pet 
species. This addition is not needed, and would essentially halt 
the business of captive reptile breeding. This would not help the 
economy; the reptile business is big, and growing daily.

The idea of protecting our wild ecosystems is noble, however the 
proposed legislation will not help in this case, and could actually 
harm it.

The animals in question all come from tropical areas of the world. 
They can not survive freezing temperatures. In fact, one of the 
greatest expenses in keeping these animals is the heating. I keep 
seven of the species of the genera concerned. All of them are 
kept at a constant 80-90 temperature gradient. The only time 
they are cooler is when they are breeding, but they never go 
below 65 degrees as this is dangerous for them.
These species simply could not establish themselves in the wild in 
the US, except for one portion of one state: The Florida 
Everglades.

All states already have laws that prohibit the release of 
non-native animals into the wild. Florida has just instated a permit 
system involving the burmese python (Python molorus bivittatus) 
and several other species. This addresses this problem directly. 
Additional legislation is not needed, and again--would cripple the 
multi-million dollar reptile business as well as endanger the jobs of 
many; not only reptile breeders, but breeders of feeder rodents, 
equipment suppliers and pet stores that sell reptiles and reptile 
supplies.

The captive breeding of these species is not only a valuable 
business, it protects the species. Keeping these animals fosters a 
deep appreciation for wildlife in general. We want to see these 
animals thrive not only in captivity, but in their native habitat. In 
fact, if it weren't for private captive breeding, the Hog Island boa, 
and the Cay Caulker's boa may very well be extinct. The Hog 
Island boa IS considered extinct in its native habitat... but these 
small boa constrictors are a popular pet and there are thousands 
in private hands. They are not particularly impressive animals, so 
zoos do not often keep them or breed them. If it weren't for the 
captive breeding business.. these species may have been no 
more.

If this were to be enacted, thousands of captive reptiles would 
become effectively worthless. Professional breeders will find it 
difficult, if not impossible to sell their stock within their state. 
Many of the larger breeders even export their animals to other 
countries. It is not hard to imagine some people releasing their 
animals to cope with the problem. In areas other than southern 
Florida, this would not impact the wildlife, but do we really want 
to deal with the possibility of an influx of released snakes into the 
Everglades area? This is the exact thing we are trying to avoid. 
Let Florida take care of it--as they already have begun to.

Most of the species in question here do not even exceed 2 meters 
in length. These animals are not dangerous to humans, and are 
exceedingly popular pets. One of the most popular is the ball 
python (Python regius) of Africa. It rarely exceeds 4' and there 
are many color and pattern morphs (varieties different from the 
normal wild-type animal) that sell for multiple thousands of dollars. 
Some even carried a price tag of $100,000. Again, this is big 
business. Do you want to force it underground with this 
legislation? I'm afraid it would be inevitable.

I personally maintain a collection of 39 snakes. I have spent well 
over 10,000 on my collection (I'm 20 years old, so that is a lot of 
money for me!) and I plan to turn it into a small business. This 
legislation would not solve the problem it is intended to address, 
and it would make many people lose their jobs--and not allow 
them to pursue their passion for these beautiful animals. Again, let 
Florida take care of it. Federal legislation is not needed and would 
do more harm than good.

Thank you for your time,
April Curtis

----------


## elevatethis

You guys might find this interesting...

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1471997,1471997

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## Freakie_frog

> You guys might find this interesting...
> 
> http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1471997,1471997


Ok now that is intresting

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## elevatethis

Its an exploratory thing...

To me its like talking about banning dolphins in Kansas...they are basically exploring the possibility of each species and its ability to affect native habitats.  A lot of people out there are just ignorant to reptiles and as a result, we have issues like this come up.

I personally feel that the states all should have a right to make their own decisions based on their own situations.  Local problems should be dealt with at a local level - not federally.

We can all think of one area that is basically ruining it for the rest of us - FLO-RIDA.

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## Gurgie

perhaps its been asked before, and I apologize if it has, but where does that leave those of us who own said snakes?  are we going to get in trouble if they catch us with one?

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## Jay_Bunny

This is not a ban on the KEEPING of the snakes, but a ban on importing and exporting of the snakes. Meaning, you can't import them from overseas and you can't ship them over state lines.

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## rm1888

Too Many Rules in the good ol us of a.

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## slither9192

So pretty much it's just Burmese Python now? I'm confused :Confused:

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## dsirkle

> That's not the primary focus - the primary focus is potentially invasive species that may have an impact on our native ecosystems.  This is where RESPONSIBLE HERPETOCULTURE comes into play!  If they weren't finding Burmese pythons in the Everglades, this wouldn't have as much validity.


Sadly our Legislators may not get involved or informed enough to have a primary focus at all and may just paint all constrictors whether native or imported, large or small, commonly released or never released into the wild with the same broad brush and ban interstate transportation of them. Hopefully the knowledgeable people on the panel will have an opportunity to present all the information that they would like to give.

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## sweety314

> I don't quite understand how ball pythons have been lumped into this.  What grounds to they have to say that ball pythons, and other small pythons/boas are a threat to the environment?  
> 
> I realize that there are quite a few animals out there that do pose risks to the environment and even humans, but I just don't understand how smaller reptiles are suddenly targeted as a danger and threat to the wild...
> 
> Is there any significant proof of people releasing ball pythons and it causing a problem? anywhere?


Just the broad generalizations---any and ALL pythons....since it's geared more towards the giants, but naming all pythons /boids it makes it easier for them, but puts the hit on the little guys, too. 

No matter WHAT's named, or not, this is a bad idea all around. Yes, fact-finding, but if the lobbyists & PETA didn't get their grubby mitts into everything, we wouldn't have to be shoveling this "stuff" all the time. Bureaucrats and politicians usually have help coming up with the brain-dead crap like this!!!!

U can be sure I'm posting and mailing. OREGON just went through this whole thing this last spring and summer. Exact same stuff...proposed bannings and permits only for zoos, research facilities, etc. I'm sooooo glad someone pulled their head out and it was tabled. < Not to say it can't, or won't return, but for now, it's a dead issue. >

I'll be emailing friends and family, encouraging them to post their comments and  :Two cents: . Most all know of our collection of pets, and my goals to eventually breed for an income boost, so their input should help also. *fingers crossed*

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## vinnimac

There is a site to make an electronic reply. It's at http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...000064803a565f. Yes you have to give name and address, and they spell out it will be made public but I don't care! They have to realize some of us are responsible with our animals. :Taz:  :Salute:

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## mwedgley

So first off I am new to this forum. Up until I found out about this newly proposed ban I had no need for these sorts of forums. I have been reading this thread and I think some very key points have been missed in this thread. On one hand this ban only states that it is banning transporting across states of the reptiles except for the purposes stating. A lot of you are stating that they are taking them away from you. Understandable if you give them an inch they'll take a mile but if you aproach them saying don't take my animal away they will only reply they are not. Stick to the facts which are that thay are hoping to ban transportation. On a side not what has also not been mentioned on this thread is that they are trying to have these species included into the Lacey act which I have not read in detail but I believe does prohibit the sale or the purchase in any state of the animals on said list. I myself am also new to the ball python thing but was very excited about the breeding I have planned for many different reasons one is the science aspect as well as self education. One thing that it says is they will be allowing permits for educational and scientific purposes. My thing is I'm not a scientist, I don't go to school but in my house I learn from my animals and that to me is the highest form of education. In regards to the poor treatment of these animals by a few banning will only make things worse. Those that are caring for their animals will be effected and those letting them go or transporting wild caught will only continue doing things on the black market where the snakes will be put in more jeopardy. Sorry for the lengthy post but the main points to focus on was to make you all aware of the Lacey Act.

----------


## Dvas_Romeo

Regarding this proposed ban, it states importation into USA and transportation interstate.  Wouldn't this allow for breeders to breed their current animals and sell within their own state?  In other words, wouldn't owners technically still be allowed to legally purchase and/or keep these animals - provided that they were not imported into the US and/or transported between states?

----------


## slither9192

> Regarding this proposed ban, it states importation into USA and transportation interstate.  Wouldn't this allow for breeders to breed their current animals and sell within their own state?  In other words, wouldn't owners technically still be allowed to legally purchase and/or keep these animals - provided that they were not imported into the US and/or transported between states?


Yes but there would be so little buyers in one state the breeders wouldn't be making any money.

----------


## Kerig3

If you haven't done so already, please read this article:

PIJAC Interviews USFWS
Seeks to clarify notice of inquiry on constrictor snakes.

Maybe this will clear up some confusion as to what this is all about.

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## West Coast Jungle

> If you haven't done so already, please read this article:
> 
> PIJAC Interviews USFWS
> Seeks to clarify notice of inquiry on constrictor snakes.
> 
> Maybe this will clear up some confusion as to what this is all about.


Very imformative link. From what that article says they are trying to educate themselves what species may be a long term enviromental threat. In my opinion south Florida and Hawaii(where snakes are illegal any way) are the only places in the US tropical enough where most of the boa and python species could
survive in the wild and have a chance of establishing themselves long term. Florida has already adjusted laws to try to curb the problem in the everglades and that is a very localized enviromental issue.

The fact that they are also interested in economic info sounds like uncle Sam feels he might not be getting his share of an industry no one was paying to much attention to.

At least thats what I got out of the article.

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## bait4snake

What I find "interesting" is that the American Alligator can go from their low numbers to over 1 million and that's a good thing, but a couple hundred Burmese pythons can be let go in the Everglades and suddenly they're disrupting the balance of nature!  

If there was a 20ft python naturally in the Everglades and their numbers were in the hundreds, it would be put on a critically endangered species list for fears of its extinction!  And environutjobs would blame humans for it.  Yet for some reason just because these pythons weren't naturally put there, they're going to overpopulate and kill off native species.  HUH?????

Don't you think the over 1 million alligators are eating more of those native species than a couple hundred "critically endangered" pythons?

Just helping us all think out of the box a little.

----------


## Albey

PIJAC Recommendations on the Ban.

I posted this in it's own separate thread but thought it could of use here also.

As a PIJAC member I just got an email notice from them on the FWS Large Constrictor Ban. Following is their recommendation on responding to it.

Recommended Action.
We ask that you withhold submitting your comments until close to the April 30 deadline in order to allow PIJAC time to provide you with guidance and information that will help you prepare effective comments. PIJAC is currently engaging in meetings with the FWS and gathering information to assist you on this issue. Again, please note, that this is not a proposed rulemaking notice  it is only a notice to gather information, especially biological, on these particular snakes.
PIJAC is also undertaking an extensive literature search of peer-reviewed articles, lay magazines, and books to gather relevant information to respond to the questions raised by the FWS. Anyone who has copies of articles or other pertinent information on the biology of any of the species should send them to PIJAC at info@pijac.org AND to PIJACs Senior Science and Policy Advisor, Dr. Jamie K. Reaser pijacscience@nelsoncable.com. Dr. Reaser is compiling a database which PIJAC will use to develop a formal science-based response on behalf of the industry and hobbyists, as well as to provide guidance for people to use in crafting their comments.
Thirdly, PIJAC is conducting a survey of concerned members of the herpetoculture community and the industry to collect data to answer the questions posed by the FWS regarding numbers of breeders, animals sold, economic questions, etc. This information will be consolidated and presented as data summaries without identifying individuals supplying the information. The FWS is very aware of the concerns of many people about revealing their identity. If you are interested in providing herpetoculture data to PIJAC, please contact PIJAC at info@pijac.org.
All proprietary data (i.e. contributors identity, numbers of animals, financial data) will be treated as confidential information and will only be seen by PIJAC staff.
We urge you to review this notice carefully and consider the implications that could come as a result of listing any of these snakes as injurious wildlife. If you have further questions concerning this matter, please contact PIJACs Marshall Meyers by phone at 202-452-1525 or by email at mmeyers@pijac.org. Those who are not members of PIJAC and desire further information about membership may phone Nancy Knutson at 1-800-553-PETS (7387) or visit the PIJAC website at www.pijac.org.
Where to send your comments:
FWS will be receiving comments and other information on this issue until April 30, 2008. You may submit comments by one of the following methods:
 U.S. mail or hand-delivery: Public Comments Processing, Attn: RIN 1018-AV68,
Division of Policy and Directives Management, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Suite 222, Arlington, VA 22203; or  Website: www.regulations.gov (Follow instructions for submitting comments. In the comments or submissions box type in keyword: injurious wildlife. This should take you to the comment page.). FWS will not accept e-mail or faxes, and will post all comments on http://www.regulations.gov.
This generally means that FWS will post any personal information you provide. For further information contact Erin Williams, Branch of Invasive Species at (703) 358-2034 or erin_williams@fws.gov.

I hope this helps,

----------


## icygirl

Something smells fishy to me here. Does FWS normally go looking for scientific data from the public? Or public comment for that matter? Why wouldn't they gather data themselves?

It seems altogether too *nice* to me. Whenever a government organization does something rational, like ask the public for information and opinions before they make a rash decision, I hesitate to trust it.

I mean, they're the FWS! Shouldn't they KNOW in the first place that a ban on trade of all species of Python/Boa/Eunectes is just ridiculous? I'm sure they've heard of ball pythons and RTB's as they are in just about every pet store that sells reptiles, and in the vast majority of cases are harmless. And, wouldn't they know the obvious fact that in nearly every state except Florida, these snakes can't survive in the wild for long and thus pose no threat to the wildlife?

OK, so some of you are saying, "It's obvious to YOU, but not obvious to non-herpers." But think about it: *The Fish And Wildlife Service.* They MUST have at least one semi-knowledgable animal biologist employed under them who'd be aware of this stuff!!!!!!

Furthermore... if this all started around burms in Florida, why does it make any sense to extend one small problem in one state to an entire country? This should all be basic knowledge to the folks at the FWS, which makes me believe there is something involved behind the scenes.....

What's everyone think?

----------


## mwedgley

I completely agree. It has been my thought the whole time. It feels to me like they want us to feel they are being fair so when it comes down to taking them away they can say do to the facts gathered from us. I don't plus if you read the interview with them and pijac it didn't sound very good either. Pijac didn't ask the questions that matter and the ones that were answered were vague. I don't want to give up any of our rights to own or transport any species that are already common trade.

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## surf4life

i had ball pythons ever since i was 10 years old..this is bull

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## Colin Vestrand

i've felt the same way... i think they're opening this to public comment strictly so they can gain more info on the demographics and types of people most directly affected by the ban.  clearly they dont care what we think... they care about taking swift and decisive action and about abusing their democratically gained powers to the fullest extent possible.

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## Colin Vestrand

let me also say that i visited the everglades last year and florida has much much much bigger problems that a few burms... how about pollutants, drout, and the draining of their natural wetlands for irrigation and human consumption??? there is no everglades.  i went in the spring and it was a big field basically.  not a whole lot of fresh water there.

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## icygirl

Another thing. Realistically, BP owners need NOT worry about the interstate trade of BP's... simply because of their role in the pet industry. Think about how many BP's are sold by Petco and Petsmart each year... and those all come from out of state for most stores. Now think about how many Petcos and Petsmarts there are in America. That's a lot of snakes and a lot of business. (And, mind you, Petco sells baby normals for $80.)

It's the non-mainstream snakes that matter. They probably expect lots of owners to say, "Oh , well don't ban ALL of them, just ban the big ones like burms and condas." Then they can just go ahead and do it, saying they had public approval...

The whole thing is just scary. In my state, you need to have a permit for owning large snakes like retics and condas (not burms as far as I know, but could be wrong). If there's a burm problem in FL, that PARTICULAR state should consider a permit system, instead of a ban of ALL trade of these animals.

All of this just rubs me the wrong way!!  :Mad:  :Rage:

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## Jake_Snake

And I just recently decided to become a breeder! Looks like I'd better wait and see how this things plays out before buying that expensive piebald. I'll definately send a letter. The main reason I'm against this proposal is a simple matter of rights, but I'll cite economic reasons in the letter.

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## BMorrison

Keep in mind this is a consensus and not a bill and most people who aren't into snakes as a hobby are not even going to hear about this so it gives us a pretty good chance of keeping our hobby safe. Just my opinion.

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## cgrinter

I think the FWS has some ground here, and I don't necessarily think they are gearing this just to giant snakes.  Just think of what the brown tree snake did to Guam...and the pythons in the everglades are becoming more and more of a problem.  There are breeding populations that are rapidly growing and are increasingly making their impact known to native wildlife (as if there weren't enough problems in the first place). 

I do agree that this sounds rather suspicious...their proposal only makes me think they are more inept at their job than previously thought.  Anyone new to the hobby can find out this information in a week, yet the FWS has to undergo a massive effort to gather data as if it were hard to find.  Basically they lack anyone educated enough or intelligent enough to handle this without bureaucracy and BS.  After all they have to prove their jobs are worthy.  God forbid they tackle real problems like our sieve quality port security.  If they knock off some easy problems and make life hard for normal law abiding US citizens then they can prove they are doing their jobs.     

I work for a major US institution...and because of this they play by the laws 100%.  Every time some small problem occurs on the paperwork, or someone sends an unsolicited protected species in, or a mistake is made...it's reported.  And all hell breaks loose from the FWS because they can crack down on us and make it look like they are there for a reason, to prevent the evil museum's from doing honest scientific research.  They are busy slapping fines and watching over our shoulders while Mr. Smith down the street imports 1000 Amazon parrots illegally every week.

----------


## Texas Dan

> I can see it now, illegal drug I mean snake trafficers. Instead of hidden compartments for drugs there will be hidden rack systems so breeders can sell their reptiles to out of staters. Instead of cops busting marijuans grow houses they will look at electric bills to determine who is using heat tape and radiator heaters. This sucks.


Lol, how do you think drug dealers make the drugs? Large lights and lots of water.

----------


## MelissaFlipski

> You can submit your comment   here.
> 
> My comment:
> Regarding the proposed snake ban,
> 
> I think that we should be aware of the broad variety of snakes that would fall under the current description. The large snakes can be extremely dangerous, and I can understand an interest in regulating them to keep them out of the hands of inexperienced keepers.
> 
> On the other hand, small snakes like Ball Pythons, some Carpet Pythons, and Boas make wonderful pets and are less dangerous than a kitten. They require specific conditions to survive, making wild populations impossible in most of the United States, and are only a danger to the small rodents we consider pests.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Jeff.  I hope you don't mind that I used your comment as the draft for my own.

*All, here is the link where you can post your comments:
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...000064803a565f*

And here is what I submitted:

"Regarding the proposed snake ban,

I think that we should be aware of the broad variety of snakes that would fall under the current descriptions. Some giant snakes (such as Burnese Pythons, Reticulated Pythons, and Green Anacondas) can be dangerous, and I can understand an interest in regulating them to keep them out of the hands of inexperienced keepers.

On the other hand, small snakes like Ball Pythons, Carpet Pythons, and Boas make wonderful pets and can be less dangerous than a dog or cat, especially with proper handling techniques and adult supervision. They require specific conditions to survive, such as tropical forests, making wild populations impossible in most of the United States, and are only a danger to the small rodents we consider pests.

I'm a pet snake hobbyist.  We have four pet snakes - a Ball Python, a Jungle Carpet Python, a Kenyan Sand Boa, and a Rosy Boa (which is native to the SW United States).  Our family got started with the Ball Python as a juvenile for my oldest son's 6th birthday.  She and the two boas are the most docile pets we have ever owned.  The Jungle Carpet Python is becoming more and more tame with careful adult handling, although even when this one bites, it is the equivalent of a pin prick or two and nothing more.  We enjoy watching, caring for, and handling all of our snakes.  It brings us great pleasure as small-time hobbyists.

We can't imagine snakes such as these being restricted or regulated.  It would interfere with others' chances to enjoy this hobby as much as we do.

Please consider which specific species are a danger and which are not.  It is imperative that you do not restrict harmless reptile species out of ignorance.

Thank you for considering my input,
Melissa J. Kowalski"

----------


## Gloryhound

> Keep in mind this is a consensus and not a bill and most people who aren't into snakes as a hobby are not even going to hear about this so it gives us a pretty good chance of keeping our hobby safe. Just my opinion.


Things can turn around quick when a news (USA today) paper runs a front page article called "Pythons have us in their grasp" on 2-21-08.  Then they use a bunch of hypotheticals to make people panic.  I cancelled our subscription.  When a paper writes a story that is based on possibilities and not fact, then puts it on the front page it makes me think they have an agenda and are not an unbiased news agency.

----------


## _BoidFinatic_

> The other thing they're not looking into is the damage that the hurricanes have done, to allow this. They've released a multitude of species into the everglades that could establish themselves, including various species of primates, various mammal species, various species of monitors, elapids, various other Pythons including Reticulated Pythons, African Rock Pythons and rare species. The most common and notable though is the Burmese, due largely to their frequent occurrence of finds, as well as their noted feeding on large Floridian predators and mammals, and discoveries of clutches, juveniles, and younger animals (Noting they have established themselves and are thriving). All its doing though, is giving fuel to their fire. Really all we can do now is fight it



great post :Good Job:

----------


## MelissaFlipski

> Things can turn around quick when a news (USA today) paper runs a front page article called "Pythons have us in their grasp" on 2-21-08.  Then they use a bunch of hypotheticals to make people panic.  I cancelled our subscription.  When a paper writes a story that is based on possibilities and not fact, then puts it on the front page it makes me think they have an agenda and are not an unbiased news agency.


Good for you.  Did you tell them why you canceled?  Also, it's not an agenda, it's about drama, readership, and the media hype.  It sells.  But it's still no excuse of them to do that.   :Wag of the finger:

----------


## cgrinter

Here is an interesting article I just came across, I think it helps point out just how serious this problem could be.  If they really did spread, even to a fraction of the map highlighted, they would have a serious effect on the environment and people.  

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223111456.htm

----------


## BMorrison

FYI I think this is the 500th time something like this has been attempted and it's NEVER worked. They tried it in Arizona not long ago and it got shot down real quick. Once again it's a consensus which is open to the public and when the government sees how much money is pumped into a failing economy through the pet trade most notably the reptile trade is booming right now they will consider that as well. I'm not saying to not be weary or write in and voice your opinion because god knows I have but I think we'll all stand strong throughout the nation and keep our hobby safe. Think about it as it's an inconvenience to us to have to write letters or e-mails or sign petitions.. think about people who are truly busy.. they don't have time to put together information to support a reason for a ban. Most people could care less. You do have a few select uneducated people out there who are gung-ho about banning snakes as a whole but as long as the letters keep pouring in with fact based information instead of irrational fears... I'll leave the rest to you...

----------


## jjspirko

You know the two facts that are being ignored are

1.  The burms in the Glades ain't going to migrate very far north.  They won't make it to VA like some of those stupid maps say.  There is nothing preventing them from going north in Asia and they don't.  Why?  Weather below freezing is FATAL to them.

2.  It is not even people letting them go that created the problem in South Florida.  That is one of the biggest lies since the false passing of the 16th amendment (for those that don't know it created the income tax).  You see most of the burm population in South Florida has its' roots in Hurricane Andrew in 1992 when many burms were "freed" by houses being blown flat.  

With Florida being a meca for importing reptiles many got away.  After more then 15 years now a healthy breeding population has built up.  There are more every year because of BREEDING not released animals.  This is the same in Cozumel there are boas everywhere from 8 released in the 70s.  

Even we in the community are wrong to blame "Irresponsible Keepers" for this issue.  Sure some of that happens but the massive numbers set free by a natural disaster are the seeds of the Burm population in South Florida.  You have to ask yourself this as well, why only Burms?  Why are there not boas, retics and bloods all over the Glades if it is "Irresponsible Keepers".  Could it be because Burms are perfectly adapted for the Everglades and therefore self supporting at this time?  You bet it is.

----------


## jjspirko

Here is what I mean by they won't move north, this map is the natural range of the Burmese Python.



Notice the did not move into central China, Afghanistan, etc.  They are not heading for Moscow, etc after tens of thousands of years with no real boundaries.  Why?  Climate!

The Burms in the Glades are bad for the Glades but they are not going to be "coming to an area near you" as Fox News reported just last week.  There really needs to be some accountability in the fricken media.

----------


## Austin Smith

I read some of that article. Here's a quote from it 

"Several endangered species,' he noted, 'have already been found in the snakes' stomachs".

The thing is, no one cares how the species got to be endangered in the first place. They are endangered because of habitat destruction, pollution, hunting etc., and thats all okay if its done by humans but the second a python decides to make a meal out of some endangered bird its an outrage. My point is no one cares about the endangered species until a big scary snake starts eating them. 

Well thats my rant on the subject for today. Keep up the good fight everyone. 

-Austin

----------


## grizz2534

THAT'S HORSE CRAP!! Stupid crybaby bleeding heart liberals!! :Mad:  :Surprised:  :Rage:

----------


## J.Bissell

I spend most of my posting time over at freedom reptiles, but decided to come over here and comment on this:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223111456.htm

This is one of the articles about the USGS survey deal...  I wrote the editorial staff and the site this response:

I am writing in regards to the article 'Python Snakes, An Invasive Species In Florida, Could Spread To One Third Of US'.    This article is borderline fear mongering, and some fact checking is an order.  Almost all of the species in question require quite warm weather year around, just one or two freezing nights WILL kill them.  The given area may support these snakes most of the year, but they won't make it through winter in nearly all of the given zones.  Even with the climate warming there will still be sufficiently cold periods to kill almost all snakes in question.  If you are going to write an article about this issue, please give a balanced view.  Do a little research.

Also, I believe pollution, urbanization and development, and hunting from native species are more dangerous to those endangered species than several hundred newly introduced snakes.  Don't shift blame from the real causes of endangerment, to a scapegoat that is an easy target because people have, often times, baseless fears about.

Yet another point.  The map cited was made by the USGS, a geological survey.  This doesn't seem a credible source to make sweeping statements about the suitability of the environment for exotic species.  Maybe a couple herpetology experts, or reptile keepers would be good sources for climate suitability?

All that being said, I realize much of this is quotation from other sources and not your direct opinion.  Even so you can present the other side of the story instead of just taking just one side and running with it.

There is a large community of reptile keepers that are upset about the biased views that have been presented on this subject.  It would go a long way toward mending your standing with this community if you would present a new article offering both sides of the story.  I would even be willing to write an article on the subject for you

I would love to hear from you all about your position on this matter.

Thank you,
Joshua R. Bissell

We'll see if they do anything...  Are there any other media sources I can contact and offer them some info?  These are the things we need to confront, all issues are tried in the media.  People react when they see '250 lb killer coming to you neighborhood', so we need to make our voices heard in the media, not just by the powers that be.  Also, are there any updates on what's happening with this whole issue?

----------


## Kerig3

Supposedly either this weekend or next there will be a _'summit'_ in Chicago of the more well-known snake breeders, and I hope that one of the attendees of this summit will address this question for me and others like me: 

*As a snake owner or small collector, what should we be doing?* 

I have read and heard what breeders or people with large collections can do (all the data collecting), but as a little guy I'm confused as to what *I can do* for the cause to fight the USFWS proposal. So if you happen to be attending this upcoming summit, can this please be addressed and reported back to us? People like me don't have much influence, but what we lack in influence we make up for in our numbers!  :Very Happy: 

Thank you!

-Kerig

----------


## Kerig3

> I spend most of my posting time over at freedom reptiles, but decided to come over here and comment on this:
> 
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223111456.htm


Joshua,
Thank you for writing that letter to Science Daily!
Sadly though if you do a quick Google Search you'll see that this _'garbage science'_ study by the USGS (with our tax money, mind you) was picked up by the media and left-wing Global Warning groups and they have had a field day with it!
 :Mad: 

Giant Python Could Be 'Health Hazard for Small People' in USA

Burmese Pythons Might Invade One Third of US

Giant Constrictor Snakes Invade Florida

Hope you like pythons: Climate conditions in southern U.S. perfect for invasive constrictors' spread

Python Snakes - An Invasive Species In Florida

Snakes on the plains: Pythons slither across U.S.

Pythons are warming up to America

Snakes alive! Burmese pythons could be headed our way

Pythons Will Colonize U.S.

Oh, and my _favorite_...

Global Warming Will Cause Giant Snakes to Take Over America
_(nice photo...)_

And that's just a few...

So it looks like the damage may already be done...and we never even had a chance to defend ourselfs...all thanks to the USGS!  :Sad:

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## nevohraalnavnoj

Many of those articles use extrapolations on current global warming trends..."by 2042, the southern half of the united states will have warmed XYZ degrees, allowing pythons to migrate even further north"

Yeah, except for the fact that according to the temperatures in their data much of the US will be underwater due to the melted polar ice caps!  Last I checked, pythons didn't have gills.

JonV

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## West Coast Jungle

> Supposedly either this weekend or next there will be a _'summit'_ in Chicago of the more well-known snake breeders, and I hope that one of the attendees of this summit will address this question for me and others like me: 
> 
> *As a snake owner or small collector, what should we be doing?* 
> 
> I have read and heard what breeders or people with large collections can do (all the data collecting), but as a little guy I'm confused as to what *I can do* for the cause to fight the USFWS proposal. So if you happen to be attending this upcoming summit, can this please be addressed and reported back to us? People like me don't have much influence, but what we lack in influence we make up for in our numbers! 
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> -Kerig


I reccomend suporting PIJAC. They fight alot of the rediculous pet laws that come up.

----------


## gmcclurelssu

in addition to writing letters in response to the proposal, we need to make sure we are writing our senators and state representatives.  if they get enough letters, they will fight with us.  they just need a LOT of letters from concerned citizens.  i fully plan on writing my letters to my senators and the USFW in a few days.  with the numbers of outdoors people we have in michigan, the senators almost have to pay attention.  

remember liberals, its your asses in the hot seat now, don't screw up!

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## Kerig3

> I reccomend suporting PIJAC. They fight alot of the rediculous pet laws that come up.


Although PIJAC doesn't support the pet hobbyist, and their data gathering forms are geared towards the breeder, manufacturer and other such businesses. You can read about what PIJAC plans to do here, and their data gathering survey is here.

As for the upcoming summit, I'm hoping that what the hobbyist can do to help is addressed.

As for writing to your reps in congress, that may be premature since the USFWS is only in its data gathering stage, and this isn't yet a ban proposal, so they'll simply refer us to follow the steps of the outlined by the USFWS, which doesn't address the hobbyist. In fact PIJAC's website states:
_NOTE: Even though it published in the Proposed Rules section of the Federal Register, this is NOT a rulemaking proposal - it is only a fact finding initiative._

And it's been made very clear that just voicing our opinions isn't going to make a difference.  :Sad: 

If you want to really know where this topic stands, please read the Panel Discussion chat that was conducted on Feb. 29th with a USFWS rep., PIJAC rep., and many top python and boa breeders. The full transcript is here.

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## Kerig3

> Last I checked, pythons didn't have gills.


Nor do snake breeders and hobbyists...unless Kevin Costner collects snakes...  :Wink:

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## jimsonfury

is this too threatening? 

I do apologize, because I believe I've done almost everything ya'll stated I shouldn't (prior to reading the rest of the Thread) at least if it is I'd post it so others can see an example of not what to do, just was a little fired up.

I strongly disagree with the proposed snake ban. It is nonsense to wipe out the trade, obliterating an entire genre of business in this "free" country, god forbid, damaging the economy yet even further, taking away the dreams of millions of entrepreneurs, makes me sick to my stomach. I understand that certain snakes need to be regulated better, however snakes like my Ball Python will never be a threat to anyone in anyway! 

I say enough with criminalizing the public!

Whatever officials who are leading this proposition should be well informed herpetologist, otherwise I will have a hard time taking it seriously and will undoubtedly keep my liberties and my pets.



James

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## Thor26

more people are attacked by dogs than snakes this is ridiculous if they try to pass this im gonna be standing on the white house lawn flipping them off til they change it lmao  :Rage: + :Sad: + :Mad: + :Rolleyes2:

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## ama1997

> Oh, i see now.  I think they should regulate the sale of bigger snakes that have more of a chance of being let go because of size and houseing issues, but there is no reason for smaller ones.
> 
> I also see stray dogs all over the place, and i do not see them trying to ban dogs?


I think they should do that, but only in states where If a python or boa is let loose it can live in the wild. Im in Wisconsin so if one gets out or someone lets it loose. In the summer It might live, But once winter hits they are dead. So regulate sales of these snakes. In the states where they could live year round. Leave the rest of the states alone. Just my thoughts.

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## mike31

It might have to come down to the breeders micro chipping each and every snake they sell and documenting who its sold to in order to track that person down if the animal is found outside or let loose in the wild. I know this isnt a foolproof way of keeping people from dumping their animals but its something to think about.  Animal cops was on last night and they caught several tegus and a fairly big water monitor in a fairly small residential area in florida and were blaming it on an importer that lived just a few blocks away. These people are going to ruin the right to keeping reptiles for everyone with there stupidity. Imagine how many people saw that show that are scared of reptiles, what do you think they are going to say when they hear about the proposed ban, they'll be all for it.Responsible ownership and doing research on an animal before you buy it is the key.

mike bell

----------


## dracothedragon

i am not sure if this is a repost or not, (i didn't want to look through all 22 pages lol) but i know of 2 on line petitions that you can sign as well for anyone interested.


http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/boasandpythonsban/


http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...000064803a565f

(the one asks for a donation after u submit it, but you do not need to donate, your signature will already be recorded)

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## drugaria

> This is stupid, yet another sad attempt of people who do not understand snakes trying to ban them Like my ball python is ever going to eat me


That's right a bunch of morons from florida are trying to make everybod's life miserable. Like my boa will survive the winter here in Mass if it escapes and will completely destroy the entire ecosystem of the US, or your BP, birm or whatever snake you've got. Seriously give me a break ! We must stand up and fight for our freedom and put an end to this b***s**t .  :Salute:

----------


## lillyorchid

Does anyone know whats going on with this? Did it get passed or not? I've not heard anything more on or about it, I guess thats a good thing perhaps?

----------


## MelissaFlipski

> i am not sure if this is a repost or not, (i didn't want to look through all 22 pages lol) but i know of 2 on line petitions that you can sign as well for anyone interested.


Ditto on the looking through all 22 pages.  If you are a breeder or pet store, please fill out these surveys.  It will help PIJAC and USFWS understand what is at stake economically, which can be very convincing.   :Very Happy:   Thanks!

First one is for Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council (PIJAC):
https://www.pijac.org/i4a/forms/form.cfm?id=23

Second one is for  (United States Fish & Wildlife Service) USFWS:
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspubli...000064803a565f

----------


## Papa Burgundy

Submitted my letter. What a shame for them to even propose such a ridiculous idea.

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## pythontricker

when will everything be said and done? April 30th?

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## Oroborous

I doubt this ban will be passed...just because the herp hobby has expanded so much. Too many people have businesses based around reptile breeding and care. And it'll also be a difficult law to enforce.
But in my opinion I think there should be more regulation on the animals people are allowed to buy at any ol pet store or expo. I mean, some reptiles just shouldn't be kept by just anyone. Too many herps fall into the wrong hands and are neglected or set loose into the wild which creates competition with native species, which isn't fair to the animals. Not everyone is responsibly herp keepers.

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## spiritwather

Ok let me make my feelings on this very clear so that everyone understands the situation in africa where specifically ball pythons come from.

They are being killed by the thousand every day for skin trade, hunted and taken from their habitats and are starting a down ward spiral to being extinct in the wild.

I love my ball python to death, but i made sure that i was buying one that was captive bred. there are hundreds of thousands of people with ball pythons in the world, they dont need to be taken from the wild anymore. I agree banning all forms of the trade is not the right solution, I think they should move from banning trading, to banning trading between countries. not between states in america. just stop the wild caught pet trade, there are more than enough to go around from breeders. but there aren't all that many left in the wild. 

It really bugs me when people decide the only solution to any problem is to get rid of the whole activity completely. there are many ways to stop will animals from dying or being taken from their environment. 

I know thats not all this is about, i.e all the animals that end up being let loose and that excape, I think instead of banning people from buying pythons, especially large ones, is to just correctly educate buyers, or impose a licence with a written test on how to care for large animals, kind of like a learners licence for snakes. 

either way, I don't live in the states. but i believe that trying to prevent people from a hobby they enjoy is wrong on many levels. all I can say is good luck to you.

----------


## Lowen

:Sad:  This does not look hopeful, really.
On the bright side, we can still keep the snakes we have, right? They won't take our snakes away, will they?

I know many people whose pitbulls were ripped out of their childrens' arms and euthanized for "safety" and all that really accomplished was to scar families forever. They had to watch ol' Spotty waddle away with his tail wagging knowing that he would never come back.. Because some government person says he's dangerous.

I have never been bitten by a snake, and that says alot because I used to crawl around in the ditches and catch them when I was tiny. Now, I could understand if they had some sort of size limitation, but this is just stupid.

I will agree that anacondas and retics can be dangerous when they become big enough to swallow someone, but if you're crazy enough to own one, chances are you're willing to take the risk, and you know what you're doing, you know?

Also, I bet that NOT ONE of the people supporting this ban have ever had a pet snake. They've probably never even held one. That says alot in itself.

----------


## Holbeird

> Ok let me make my feelings on this very clear so that everyone understands the situation in africa where specifically ball pythons come from.
> 
> They are being killed by the thousand every day for skin trade, hunted and taken from their habitats and are starting a down ward spiral to being extinct in the wild.
> 
> I love my ball python to death, but i made sure that i was buying one that was captive bred. there are hundreds of thousands of people with ball pythons in the world, they dont need to be taken from the wild anymore. I agree banning all forms of the trade is not the right solution, I think they should move from banning trading, to banning trading between countries. not between states in America. just stop the wild caught pet trade, there are more than enough to go around from breeders. but there aren't all that many left in the wild. 
> 
> It really bugs me when people decide the only solution to any problem is to get rid of the whole activity completely. there are many ways to stop will animals from dying or being taken from their environment. 
> 
> I know that's not all this is about, i.e all the animals that end up being let loose and that escape, I think instead of banning people from buying pythons, especially large ones, is to just correctly educate buyers, or impose a licence with a written test on how to care for large animals, kind of like a learners licence for snakes. 
> ...



Although I think something needs to be done to ensure the wild bp population is protected, I am not for the complete stopping of trade or importation for the simple fact that that is how we get new morphs. Something interesting comes in from Africa, you breed to prove out the genetics. I do think they should limit the number of snakes imported so it's more "cream of the crop" that comes in and then pet stores will have to go to the breeders for their snakes instead of just buying them from some random person who imports.  

Either way, imo this is a prime example of the federal government sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong. These bans should be by county, hell even state before federal. The fact is most snakes aren't going to live much further north then mid to upper Florida, not through the winter anyway. So let the counties or states these reptiles affect deal with it and the federal government can go do something more useful, like say fix the issues in Iraq, do something about the fact that some peoples gas per month is more than their car payment, or reform the prison system so we're not letting rapist and pedophiles walk the streets because our prisons are filled with people who have non-violent drug offenses. 

Sorry /rant off.

----------


## Lowen

> Although I think something needs to be done to ensure the wild bp population is protected, I am not for the complete stopping of trade or importation for the simple fact that that is how we get new morphs. Something interesting comes in from Africa, you breed to prove out the genetics. I do think they should limit the number of snakes imported so it's more "cream of the crop" that comes in and then pet stores will have to go to the breeders for their snakes instead of just buying them from some random person who imports.  
> 
> Either way, imo this is a prime example of the federal government sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong. These bans should be by county, hell even state before federal. The fact is most snakes aren't going to live much further north then mid to upper Florida, not through the winter anyway. So let the counties or states these reptiles affect deal with it and the federal government can go do something more useful, like say fix the issues in Iraq, do something about the fact that some peoples gas per month is more than their car payment, or reform the prison system so we're not letting rapist and pedophiles walk the streets because our prisons are filled with people who have non-violent drug offenses. 
> 
> Sorry /rant off.


I am now proclaiming you the smartest person I've ever met through a screen! :Bowdown:

----------


## snakemastercanada

Same thing happening up here in BC. Canada . WE are now facing a total ban on all exotics not just reptiles .

----------


## FIEND_FO_LYFE

this sucks.
but... even if the law did go into effect...

they couldnt just make everyone... give up there snakes...
i mean... what would they do? kill hundreds of thousands of snakes...?

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## crsaz

> they couldnt just make everyone... Give up there snakes...
> i mean... What would they do? Kill hundreds of thousands of snakes...?


YES.... if we let them have it their way. I heard thats what they did in australia(forced euthanasia) and they put up reward posters for turning in anyone still keeping exotic speices. Im not sure how much of this is true but it's what I heard

----------


## BMorrison

Is there actually any update on this shennanigans or is it pretty much done with? 

They've been trying stuff like this forever and this was all the rage for a hot minute but I haven't heard anything on it in a good 2 months now. Anything new at all?

----------


## froglily

This is not a law, or even a regulation yet. As the result of a petition from the South Florida Water Management District requesting that Burmese pythons be added to the list of "injurious wildlife" listed in a federal regulation, the Dept. of the Interior, Fish and Wildlife Services was seeking public comments on whether they should add any or all constrictor snakes to that list. http://www.fws.gov/policy/library/E8-1770.html

 This request came about because of concerns that Burmese pythons are naturalizing in the Florida Everglades and could cause a big shift in the ecosystem, which is not an unreasonable concern, right?

Listing an animal in the reg. would then allow the Sec. of the Interior to prohibit importation and interstate transportation of these species.

The agency accepted comments til April 30, 2008. They were primarily looking for biological and economic data. Public comments are available for review online at http://www.regulations.gov (search for python, find a comment on Doc. No. FWS-R9-FHC-2008-0015, and click on the link to that document). There are 62 pages of links, so there was a lot of commentary. 

Now that public commentary is closed, the department will study the issue further before possibly proposing adding any animals to the list. If they do propose that, there will be another public comment period before anything is enacted. I can't believe that they would absolutely shut down any trade in constrictors, but then again, the US government has surprised me before....

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## jessie_k_pythons

Here is what I have to say on this. Not to be an a** or anything but I read everything that had to do with this "ban" and like Froglily, I see that it is not a ban but more of a request for info. The night I found out about this, I had just bought a very nice Nerd Lemon Pastel I almost asked for my money back before I read everything on ban. Frankly, I'm going to act as if everything is normal and go on with my plans for breeding until I know for a fact that this ban is going into effect. If it happens, they will have to take my snakes from my cold dead fingers. I worked to hard to get a female well over breeding weight and a nice pastel. If I have to, I will never move out of state just to keep them. 

As for invasives, here in AZ I only see a few snakes becoming a real problem. (if that) I know that some cave boas feed strictly on bats and here in AZ we have 1 or more bats that are endangered. I dont know of any one that has this kind of boa but that could be a problem.  Sand boas could be a problem due to them competing with the rubber boas and Rosies, along with our native boas, the worm snakes and ground snakes we have here in the US could loose access to food from the sand boas. (This will all be over a long period of time mind you but will still be a problem.)

I dont know much about boas and other pythons  but I dont see Ball Pythons being a real problem besides getting rid of an ever growing problem with rodents. But that is just my opinion. 

That is just my  :twocents:  please feel free to pick it apart and correct me if I have made any mistakes.

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## serpents-prey

y'all will have to forive me for sayin this but a ban on snake like the burmese pythons would be good not bad most burmese owners outside of longtime owners buy them thinking they won't get very big and end up selling or releasing them exacerbating the problem the rest of the snakes shouldn't be banned just the larger ones like retics and burms and only to the point where you'd need a permit to own them

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## crsaz

> y'all will have to forive me for sayin this but a ban on snake like the burmese pythons would be good not bad most burmese owners outside of longtime owners buy them thinking they won't get very big and end up selling or releasing them exacerbating the problem the rest of the snakes shouldn't be banned just the larger ones like retics and burms and only to the point where you'd need a permit to own them  
> 05-29-2008 02:54 PM


I would have no problem with somthing like that as long as it is confined to florida

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## kman7183

I don't have a problem w/bans on burmes or retics in the appropriate states like florida louisiana so forth but in the north if you release that type of snake it would'nt make through the winter.

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## Jay_Bunny

I don't believe in bans on snakes of any kind. I just think you need to have a permit to get one. Go through a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo, sign some papers showing you know of their potential size and care and pay a small fee. Also, the snakes should be microchipped so that if someone does let one go, and it is found, it can be traced back to that person and they can deal with the law.

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## m0esgirl

so has anyone heard anything about it being either rejected or passed, or when it will be presented?

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## jesse1684

what is going on have they passed it or not

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## Pythonian

no idea if it passed but i just bought a ball in a pet shop about a week ago.

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## Shelby

It's not a matter of it 'passing' yet.. it was only an inquiry, it's no where near the point of being signed into law. This was just a preliminary info-gathering stage.

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## spiritwalkertaka

It looks like they will limit possession to a very few. Even those of us who are reptile/herp rescuers are effected. My wife and I try to educate everyone who is interested in becoming an owner, but there are always those who don't listen and think they know it all and are the ones who end up releasing exotics into our domestic habitation. We will keep doing our part.
   I went to the link to write but found it closed, so I will write to US Fish Wildlife through snail mail. Hopefully all of us will educate them.

Peace and Blessings to All. :Good Job:

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## shimmer

In Oklahoma when rooster fighting was outlawed it became a felony to even own the fighting breed. A great deal of fighters and breeders in my area either killed ever single rooster, hen, chick, and egg or let all the birds loss into the wild. The birds hung around the owners houses and when predors like coyotes and racoon came up the owner kill them because they endangered the other livestock. If the ban passes some people might just let their reptiles loss and that will be a big problem for fish and game officers. The ban might not pass because some species are like the crested gecko and are totally depended on the pet trade for numbers, since their are so few in the wild. If the ban does not let people keep their animals their will be more then just alligators that get eaten by big burmese or retic pythons!

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## mikeamy2007

Sometimes the way media works really gets me soooooo, uhhhhh. The wife and i were watching a special on pythons last ngiht, and residents down near the everglades were complaining about constrictors coming into their neighborhoods. The so called "specialists" kept going on and on about how deadly and dangerous pythons are, and how they need to take some kind of action quickly before people start dissappearing, etc etc etc. All I know is they need to differentiate between the wilder ones and the captive bred because I feel they are casuing unnessecary fear. They need to be educating and teaching respect, not fear. I really began to question the Discovery channel last night. :Salute:

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## Koiscale451

I'm just thinking how horrible it will be if it becomes a bill, then a law, then go into effect and all our future snake carreers will be ruined.  Nobody will keep these animals if there are so many regulations leading to more fear and misunderstanding.  Most of the public will fear snakes  :Sad:

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## m0esgirl

well alot of the public already does fear snakes, but what i dont get is why the news is saying that people are going to start disappearing. they actually did a show on animal planet or discovery channel ( cant remember which one) where it SHOWED that even a 25 foot anaconda couldnt eat a human, because they eat head first, their jaws cannot stretch wide enough to get past the shoulders. unless someone has actually been eaten recently, i dont think it can happen. but it would suck if they did do that ban. i think that AT MOST in the lower states where snakes could actually survive in the wild during the coldest times of the year, you should have to get a permit, take a small written test about the snake you are planning to buy. i know that even that wont prevent ppl from getting them without licenses though, cuz im sure someone will want to get rid of their snake cuz they're moving or something and just give it away, but a ban on all pythons is just outrageous. sorry for the book haha   :Embarassed:

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## mischevious21

Has there been any updates about this? I know that people could only send in the veiws and comments about this until April 30th, and that has been passed for awhile.. So does anyone know?

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## dc4teg

someone start a petition on petitiononline.com we must stop the feds

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## scales owner

Hey all! This sucks!!! I agree it DOES have to do w/ ALL the idiots down in the everglades that want something just because they want something that is "EXOTIC" and don't want to read up on what it takes to care for and how extinsive they all to maintain and care for. Is there any type on petition we can sign to keep this from happening?????? Hit me up thank you! Ray :Snake:

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## Viper 1

They Can"t Do This I Just Started My Collection!

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## Jenn

I try to do my part on a local level. And I have tried in the past to get members here to take action. It seems that no one has any interest in lobbying for our hobby beyond their own neighborhood. I suppose people feel like their actions will not make a difference. I don't know about that, but I'm quite sure our lack of action will make a difference!

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## Chuck1289

Damnit curse my britishness.....

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## RoyalGuardian

It wont let me go to the comment place can someone please give my the mailing address. I am getting my entire college to support us! if anything cant they just make people get a license? WTF  this is stupid. I am NEVER going to give up the fight for my baby KI!

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## Caskin

Anyone run across this article yet? I haven't read the whole thing in detail yet (the technobabble lost me early on) but it looks to be a very interesting read, and helpful to our cause.

To sum it up, it's an article contradicting the study released by the USGS a while back.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0002931

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## bsumpter

Okay people, we REALLY need to get a petition going or send letters to people that matter!  These shallow people who know nothing of the creatures we all love, and therefor fear them, want to pass legislation just to look like they're doing something.  I'm not sure what half of this legal babble means but I do get the gist of it. We cannot allow this to happen.  Now, I haven't read the entire thing through but I intend to over the next few days.  I'm new to the herpetoculture hobby, but I do it because I love these critters.  I'm outraged to think that people might actually allow this to happen.  It's gonna take an effort on the part of all of us so, what can we do?  Any ideas?

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## TheVipersHouse

> This is stupid, yet another sad attempt of people who do not understand snakes trying to ban them Like my ball python is ever going to eat me



its not about  snakes eating people  nor  is it about fear  . its about 
The Government being pissed off cause they dont  see  the money derived from selling of these animals ..
its the Government wanting to dip their hands in for a profit and since  most people sell their stuff privately   means no taxes  and no taxes makes big brother mad cause their not getting rich  off the little guys ..
so what do they do when they cant dip their hands in ? they jump in and  try  to control it and ban it , so if anyones caught  they will get fined out the ass and the government  gets  paid ...

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## enslavedbyboa's

wow, I'm happy to be here in NL  :Snake: 
I hope for you all you can stop this al happen !!

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## xanaxez

they're several petition forums on other sites. i signed one just last night =)

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## hoax

> they're several petition forums on other sites. i signed one just last night =)


Can you link some of these sites? I would be interested in signing these and I am sure there are lots of people on here who would.

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## hoax

from the USGS 
Paragraph number 2 read a little further next time.

Methodology/Principal Findings

Here we show that a predicted continental expansion is unlikely based on the ecology of the organism and the climate of the U.S. Our ecological niche models, which include variables representing climatic extremes as well as averages, indicate that the only suitable habitat in the U.S. for Burmese pythons presently occurs in southern Florida and in extreme southern Texas. Models based on the current distribution of the snake predict suitable habitat in essentially the only region in which the snakes are found in the U.S. Future climate models based on global warming forecasts actually indicate a significant contraction in suitable habitat for Burmese pythons in the U.S. as well as in their native range.

They are saying that it will not be spreading and because of the climate changes the are in which they can have a habitat is actually shrinking in the us. please read this and every one please post a comment about it.

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## hoax

Paragraph #3

Conclusions/Significance

The Burmese python is strongly limited to the small area of suitable environmental conditions in the United States it currently inhabits due to the ecological niche preferences of the snake. The ability of the Burmese python to expand further into the U.S. is severely limited by ecological constraints. Global warming is predicted to significantly reduce the area of suitable habitat worldwide, underscoring the potential negative effects of climate change for many species.

They will not be banning based off what this study says.

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## dprince

Yay!!! Great news, thanks for the update!!  :Dancin' Banana:

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## snakey68

If indeed they are not banning then that is brilliant news, hope it all works out over there, I am rooting for you. 


Even over here in the UK it's been well documented with documentaries and reports of the Everglades problem with Burmese Pythons affecting the native species of other animals and this is a sad fact directly attributed to irresponsible owners unfortunatley.

Its ammunition like that, that will ultimately put most pressure and I just hope we never have a serious incident with a large python let loose involving any humans as that would be catastrophic.

Here in Scotland reptiles escaping or being let loose is not something that would ever cause a problem as we are a land of wind rain snow ice and arctic conditions ......dam think I just depressed myself  :Razz:

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## Crazy4Herps

Whaaaaaat?!  :Rage:  That is soooooooooo not cool.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Relax.  They are NOT implementing a ban.  They are seeking information on what the consequences of a ban would be, and what the public thinks about it.

"This document seeks comments from the public to aid in determining if a proposed rule is warranted." 

Quoted from the document itself.  The USFW has been very quick to answer the panicked people who have flooded them with letters of protest, explaining that they are seeking information, NOT taking action at this time.

Depending on what YOU tell them, they will make a decision.  They've been collecting information for a while now.  Write them a polite letter, and explain what keeping snakes means to you--socially and economically--and why you believe they are no threat, and why interstate commerce should not be banned.

They are doing this because some constrictor species HAVE escaped and naturalized in several Southern US states.  Burmese and Reticulated pythons are now wild in Florida, and will most likely be impossible to eradicate there.  These are extremely large and potentially dangerous snakes that eat alligators and other native wildlife.  Don't take what they are saying lightly, as just an attack on our hobby--they aren't going off half-cocked.  They are rightly concerned, and we should be too.

We just need to let them know that we would be negatively impacted by such a draconian ban.  They will most likely come up with something more reasonable, if they do anything at all.

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## bailey23

This can not happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ball pythons are my life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## bailey23

i am going to send them a letter. i think everbody should. just because some people dont like snakes and let them go in the wild doesnt mean we sho like snakes and never let them go in the wild should have to sufer. were do you think you send the letter ro?  I HAVE TO KNOW!!!!!!!!! BALL PYTHONS ARE MY LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## coldroses

I imagine the worst ban they could come up with is some sort of restriction on burmese and reticulated pythongs or giants , in general, since they cause the only issues.   Just a thought...

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## southb

What if the "ban" targets retics?  Woul dthat apply to dwarf retics as well?  It's a slippery slope my friends!  How many anti snake people think you should be able to own snake?  None of them!

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## JKExotics

Rectics, Dwarf Rectics, and Burnese Pythons are already illegal in many states. Just because the federal law hasn't banned them everywhere doesn't mean they aren't illegal in some places.

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## Anakiyas dad

Just one more small step closer for "Big Brother" to invade our personal freedoms. Maybe they should worry about all the Illegal aliens "PEOPLE" before trying this with snakes.

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## skiingsailing

this is bad but it could get worse. if this law passes then they might pass a law saying that any owner of these snakes must get rid of them. it is a slipery slope we have to state our opinion now or in the future the posession of harmless snakes will be ban. 

Who knows what the government is going to to.

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## Haitun

Better stock up on more snakes while I still have the chance... -_-


 Rage building... 

 I REALLY hope they don't do this!!!

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## mdjudson

In my opinion retics and burmese pythons probably should not be kept as pets.  They pose to many risks and now they are becoming native to some southern states and quite frankly they have potential to become dangerous.  I have got kids and if lived in say FL I would be a little upset that my child could potentialy run into a giant and not stand a chance against him.  I would definantly understand a ban on them but I do not believe a ban on ball pythons would ever happen.

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## Reptihabitat

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/HR669

Responsible pet owners petition against  H.R. 669

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## BPHERP

Two words:

"Black Market"

Banning anything never stops trade, it simply increases the demand, which drives prices higher.

BrandonsBalls

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## dc4teg

well here is our stupid freaking goverment for us all they do is take stuff away from us and i agree people dont need 20 foot snakes i think the limit should be 12 feet  anything else a permit should be required

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## Hyper Joe

Does everyone in this post realize this is from Feb 2008?

"..This entry was posted by Jeff Barringer on Saturday, February 2. 2008 at 01:30. and is filed under kingsnake.com. The author does not allow comments to this entry .."

I do care about the ban but .. get more updated info. Also, it is a proposal only. USFWS requested (last year) for information from the public. I believe last year was the deadline.

Look up Department of the Interior , Fish and Wildlife Service
"Injurious Wildlife Species; Review of Information Concerning Constrictor Snakes From Python, Boa, and Eunectes genera."

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_Oxylepy_ (02-21-2009),_rmune0750_ (03-02-2009)

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## Oxylepy

I love you Hyper Joe. We were all too busy bugging out to even look at the bottom of the article, to even bother checking the top of the Federal Register page or where it said that they wanted the comments in by April 2008. But you, FINALLY pointed it out and made us all seem like fools.

Massive panic has been dismissed. <3

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## candyman88

people are dumb.they are so scared of snakes.our balls wouldn't never do any thing to us.they are sweet hearts maybe when it gets warmer we will take our snakes to schools and teach kids about bp and show them they do make good pets and kids theses days have no clue how to take care of animals.i want to teach kids and people not to be scare of bp and other reptiles.my wife and i going to start some thing for people who don't want there reptiles and give them a good home.We got both of ours bp for free but they are real happy now.we love all of our animals 25 fish,3 mice,3 cats,1 dog 2 bp !!!!****CrAzY*ZoO****!!!

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## akaangela

Makes me wonder why people are trying to turn the USA into Russia  :Sad:   Soon it will be we need passports to travel between states, then travel between cities will be monitored. I really hope this gets shot down like it deserves.  

That said I do understand why some of the BIG snakes are a problem.  I think they all should be microchiped and have to be registered, then we get the PEOPLE who are causing the problem not hurting the people who are responsible.

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## TheVipersHouse

> From what I got from a very quick read over.  I'll be reading it in depth over the coming week you can't respond by any electronic means i.e. email or fax.  You need to write a letter and either mail it or have it hand delivered to the address specified (and they reserve the right to publish your personal information which I'm not overly impressed about ).


ya they want you to write  it in a letter so they can find all the reptile keepers so they know who to target in  , ridiculous raids ..

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## Malpaso

Is really that bad in US? CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora) is not enough for the United States? Why ball pythons??? There were excluded from CITES few years ago. It's bit confusing... 

In Europe are big snakes under mandatory registration so not anyone can have it... but it's not ban of trade. It's more like "let's not allow anyone to have big or poisonous snakes at home".  :Confused:

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## anatess

Okay you guys.  Florida has already implemented a permit requirement for any snake that can potentially go over 8 feet long.  To get the permit, you will need to take some training classes and some government guy will inspect your enclosure.  So, it is the best solution in my opinion.  Nothing super drastic like banning, but it makes certain that people getting giants know what they're getting into.  I don't know how they monitor inter-state sales.  All I know is that if you go to the reptile store close to my house, the guys will ask for your permit before you can purchase the big crawlies.

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Pyth0nParalyze (03-08-2009)

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## shaggie

I got this e-mail today:
 USARK Introduces Landmark Legislation into NC Senate



In a major reversal of the trend started by the Animal Rights Movement 9 years ago to BAN many reptiles at the State and Local level, USARK has introduced their Model Legislation in North Carolina. If passed Senate Bill 307 (S307) will require caging standards, safety protocols, escape prevention, and registration for venomous, large constrictors and crocodilians, but will allow individuals to maintain their right to work with these animals into perpetuity. This is a truly historic and precedent setting event. This is the first time the Herp Community has actually stood up and done something for themselves... by themselves! Now that we have begun, let us not lose our momentum. USARK, together with YOU, will actively work to secure our collective futures at the Local, State and national levels.
This has set ground breaking precedent for other states to follow. Virginia has already indicated that they want to introduce similar legislation in the 2010 Legislative Session. The Herp Community, through USARK, has taken it's destiny into it's own hands. No longer will we stand idly by and watch our rights disappear. Remember this day for we are making history and securing our own futures.
Click here to thank Senator Jones for introducing S307- we need as many responses as possible!
Read S307- there are some minor mistakes that will be fixed in committee.
Pushing Legislation is expensive! Join the Reptile Nation & Protect Your Rights! JOIN USARK TODAY!
Thank all of you for your support. Together we are accomplishing great things for our community!! Thank you for standing up for yourselves with USARK on this historic day.

***Send this to everyone on your email list... post on the forums and social networking sites you visit. Tell everyone to Join the Reptile Nation!... even if they don't join tell them to sign up on our free email list.

Andrew Wyatt

President USARK

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## ScottyDsntKnow

This is really good to hear but if a Federal law comes out banning all reptile trade it trumps anything the states do.  I still wonder what will happen to this industry if the ban passes...  I guess people who really REALLY want these animals will just have to do some driving and hope they don't get pulled over...

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## Pyth0nParalyze

> Okay you guys.  Florida has already implemented a permit requirement for any snake that can potentially go over 8 feet long.  To get the permit, you will need to take some training classes and some government guy will inspect your enclosure.  So, it is the best solution in my opinion.  Nothing super drastic like banning, but it makes certain that people getting giants know what they're getting into.  I don't know how they monitor inter-state sales.  All I know is that if you go to the reptile store close to my house, the guys will ask for your permit before you can purchase the big crawlies.


See, now I would be fine if there were regulations made such as acquiring permits and licenses for certain species of reptiles and snakes that have been looked at as "questionable" than just flat out banning everything entirely. At least with permits/licenses its a type of certification for people who know what they're doing with these animals, and I guess that idea of having "certifications" is a lot better than some ordinary person housing a 12 foot long snake (not to say that ordinary people can't handle these types of things, just look at all the users on here who are living the hobby!)

Even though reptiles and guns are two different issues, the way I look at it is that it would just be like having a permit for a firearm. You've went through the education, practice, training, and a test to acquire a permit to legally have a firearm. IMO i'd rather comply with a set of _reasonable_ (notice that I exaggerated that... the law can sometimes tack on some ridiculous things) guidelines and regulations to house certain types of reptiles and snakes than to just have a ban entirely.

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## First_Phantom

wow. i just saw this thread...if they ban ball pythons i will be amazed. what threat do they impose?? maybe a threat to my neigbors chihuahua but thats about it!

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## Steve'O

I urge everyone to take this seriously and submit your signature to the online petition. This blanket legislation is very dangerous. I noticed that livestock, dogs and cats are excluded. What was the criteria for that? This bill is based on bogus science. This will destroy the exotic pet hobby and industry in this country. Not only that, it could drive some species into extinction. What of the species that almost entirely exist in American breeding programs, due to the loss of their habitat from deforestation.  :Salute:

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## andwhy6

i signed it. how many people have signed it so far and how many you think we will need in order to make a difference

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## Oxylepy

So, um.... what petition? You mean one about what this topic was originally about? Because this topic is over a year old and this stuff went down a year ago. Not right now, now this upcoming April, but last year.

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## nixer

http://www.pijac.org/files/public/US_HR_669.pdf
heres a nice update.

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## JLC

> So, um.... what petition? You mean one about what this topic was originally about? Because this topic is over a year old and this stuff went down a year ago. Not right now, now this upcoming April, but last year.


It is true that the bill in this original topic went down last year.  Now there is a new one.  I'm going to lock this thread so they don't get confused.  There are new active threads going about the new bill...as well as announcements at the tops of each forum and front-n-center on the BP.net homepage.

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