# Ball Pythons > BP Husbandry >  My BP ate some aspen bedding...

## frost0214

Hi Folks, my BP ate some aspen bedding while feeding... i tried grabbing some from  her mouth but i didnt catch all. She seemed to have downed them now...

should i worry?  :Confused:  :Confused:  and should i start feeding on a separate feeding bin?

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## Ezekiel285

Hmm, hopefully somebody that has experienced this will comment on what you should do about the snake itself. As for the separate tub thing, the BPs i keep on aspen are either moved before i feed them or I put paper/paper towels down over the aspen to prevent them from accidentally ingesting any.

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frost0214 (11-24-2011)

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## mattchibi

Yeah, you could put some paper towel down next time inside your tank (just make sure your rodent is completely dry also, and nothing will stick to it..)  I dont think you need to feed in a seperate container, that just stresses them out.

Imo your snake will be fine.  Its not like they dont get some "substrate" in their mouth in the wild.

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frost0214 (11-24-2011)

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## SourDeez

I am pretty sure you wont have an issue,  I have heard they have strong acids to digest the bones and what not so a little aspen bedding wont hurt at all I am sure it will be digested.

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Bosswich (11-28-2011),frost0214 (11-24-2011)

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## frost0214

thanks Guys! this is helpful and reassuring. i feed p/k so it is not wet at all. 

I will take the tip on putting a paper towel.. this is simple and brilliant!  :Very Happy: 

waiting for more helpful comments...  :Smile:

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## decensored

Hey There,

I wouldn't worry.  BP's digestive system is very efficient and can break down pretty much anything.  There are some cases of Aspen causing an animal to become impacted but my guys have swallowed plenty of aspen and have never had any issues.  One thing I have noticed is when the prey size is too small than alot of Bedding is able to get pulled into the snakes mouth.  I noticed virtually no Aspen being digested when I went to bigger prey animals.

Cheers.

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frost0214 (11-24-2011)

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## therunaway

> Yeah, you could put some paper towel down next time inside your tank (just make sure your rodent is completely dry also, and nothing will stick to it..)  I dont think you need to feed in a seperate container, that just stresses them out.
> 
> Imo your snake will be fine.  Its not like they dont get some "substrate" in their mouth in the wild.


BUT!, they may get tank aggressive . that wouldnt be good,

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## mattchibi

> BUT!, they may get tank aggressive . that wouldnt be good,


Unless you smell like rodents I seriously doubt it.  Snakes are crazy predators in the wild.  They have a heightened sense of "smell" believe it or not..  Just remember to always wash your hands before and after handling your snake and you shouldnt have any problems.

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## kitedemon

A few bits of wood chips are not a problem a lot can be in rare cases (I mean a lot) There is a word of caution my vet, VPI and a handful of others all say that one thing that is not digestible is a sheet of paper towel. rats are sometimes wet and paper towel can and has in the past stuck to prey items and been ingested too, that is especially a concern with small snakes. Use plastic or regular paper (doesn't fold and stick the same way) instead as a guard. It simply is not worth taking a chance even if it is slight. There is a member here whom had this happen I just don't remember whom now.

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## Skiploder

> BUT!, they may get tank aggressive . that wouldnt be good,


The aspen won't hurt your snake.

Snakes don't get "tank aggressive".

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_jben_ (11-27-2011)

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## twistedtails

A "tank aggressive" (if that's what you want to call it)snake is a happy snake in my eyes. If your snake is always trying to eat you when you open the cage, you have a great feeder! Be happy, you could be like one of the other peeps on here asking why their ball python won't eat.

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frost0214 (11-24-2011),_zeion97_ (11-24-2011)

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## Redneck_Crow

Mine sometimes get a little aspen when they eat, and I figure that in their natural setting they eat some dirt, small rocks, leaves and pieces of sticks with their prey because nobody puts down a plate for them.  If you're worried about the snake ingesting it, wait 4-5 days to feed them after you put new aspen in.  Snakes pack it down moving their bodies over it and it doesn't stick to prey as badly.

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_decensored_ (11-24-2011)

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## zeion97

> A "tank aggressive" (if that's what you want to call it)snake is a happy snake in my eyes. If your snake is always trying to eat you when you open the cage, you have a great feeder! Be happy, you could be like one of the other peeps on here asking why their ball python won't eat.


Lol...I never thought about it that way.. 




> The aspen won't hurt your snake.
> 
> Snakes don't get "tank aggressive".



X2 to both. And to be honest, the only way you're going to make a snake mean (like the ones in most family owned pet stores, the bad ones) Is if you torment the poor thing.

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## frost0214

> A "tank aggressive" (if that's what you want to call it)snake is a happy snake in my eyes. If your snake is always trying to eat you when you open the cage, you have a great feeder! Be happy, you could be like one of the other peeps on here asking why their ball python won't eat.


agree with this! i do not mind an aggressive snake... for as long as it is a good feeder..  :Smile: 

Thanks for all the response!!! very very helpful!

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## xFenrir

The only reason I'd worry about substrate being eaten is if they ate something COVERED in it. A lot of substrate might cause some problems, but a few pieces should be able to be passed through no sweat.  :Smile:

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## RestlessRobie

Small amounts of substrate has never hurt any of my snakes so I would not worry about that. 

As for tank agression I beleive it is a MYTH I have an older snake 2-3 years 1100 grams who was a rescue I was told she was very tank agressive that is why they wanted to let her go. She has been fed in her enclosure all her life from what I have been told and I would beleive it. She was very thin and hungry when we got her and damn hungry. Which is why she was hunting and striking ate anything warm in her cage. So I have been feeding her approperiate size F/T in her tank for 2 months now and well she has no signs of tank agression UNLESS I smell like a rat. So the easy fix is dont smell like a rat. I can get her out and handle her minutes before feeding while rats are thawing in the room. Easily move some of the features out of her cage while the rat is laying on the counter next to her cage. The second I hit the rat with a blow dryer game on the yes she is agressivly looking for food and well if I get bit it would be my fault she is in hunt mode and my hand is warm. Sorry to rant but I am a little tired or hearing about cage agression as a mater of fact the only time I have been bitten is while trying to take a BP out of a feeding tub after feeding becasue some holistic pet store idiot told my wife that you can't feed in the tank because of cage agression. So feed in your enclosure it causes less stress for the snakes and makes your life easier.  :Thread Hijacked:

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## andyroof1979

> Snakes don't get "tank aggressive".


I had a 4 1/2 ft cornsnake who would try to bite your face off if you came within 4ft from his 
cage. He was thereason for my first snakehook. Once you got him out he was mellow as could be. 

I bin feed all my snkes, they know what the blue totes are for and coil up to strike instantly when placed inside, especially my carpets.

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## Skiploder

> I had a 4 1/2 ft cornsnake who would try to bite your face off if you came within 4ft from his 
> cage. He was thereason for my first snakehook. Once you got him out he was mellow as could be. 
> 
> I bin feed all my snkes, they know what the blue totes are for and coil up to strike instantly when placed inside, especially my carpets.


Totally different behavior set.

About every snake I has will act _defensive_ when removed from an enclosure.   That behavior can manifest by striking, by tail rattling or just by fleeing.  In the case of ball pythons, ever wonder why many of them curl up into a ball when removed from their enclosures?  Balls are less prone to bite, don't really tail rattle and instead just curl up into, well, a ball.

That is not a by-product of feeding, it is a natural response to being grabbed and removed from it's cage/drawer.

See, when we grab a snake from it's cage, we are mimicking the behavior of a predator.  That has absolutely nothing to do with "aggression" and it has absolutely nothing to do with feeding an animal in it's cage.

The myth of cage aggression related to feeding is just that - a myth.  The problem is that people keep propagating that myth.  People keep mistaking defensive behavior with food conditioning.  People keep failing to realize that snakes are hard-wired to act _defensive_ when stimulated by behavior on our part that mimics how a predator would act.

Snakes rarely "coil up and strike" when feeding.  A snake fed properly in it's environment will stalk and strike, or just strike.  Coiling is, in almost every case, a "defensive" behavior performed to both minimize the footprint of the animal and also make the animal look more intimidating to a predator.   

There is absolutely zero reason to bin feed.  That has been discussed endlessly on this and other forums.  There is no cogent argument in favor of doing it, no benefit to be had by practicing it, and only potential issues and complications by advocating it.

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Ezekiel285 (11-28-2011),_jben_ (11-27-2011),_kitedemon_ (11-27-2011),rabernet (11-28-2011)

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## andyroof1979

[QUOTE=Skiploder;1706652]Totally different behavior set.

About every snake I has will act _defensive_ when removed from an enclosure.   That behavior can manifest by striking, by tail rattling or just by fleeing.  In the case of ball pythons, ever wonder why many of them curl up into a ball when removed from their enclosures?  Balls are less prone to bite, don't really tail rattle and instead just curl up into, well, a ball.

That is not a by-product of feeding, it is a natural response to being grabbed and removed from it's cage/drawer.

See, when we grab a snake from it's cage, we are mimicking the behavior of a predator.  That has absolutely nothing to do with "aggression" and it has absolutely nothing to do with feeding an animal in it's cage.

The myth of cage aggression related to feeding is just that - a myth.  The problem is that people keep propagating that myth.  People keep mistaking defensive behavior with food conditioning.  People keep failing to realize that snakes are hard-wired to act _defensive_ when stimulated by behavior on our part that mimics how a predator would act.

Snakes rarely "coil up and strike" when feeding.  A snake fed properly in it's environment will stalk and strike, or just strike.  Coiling is, in almost every case, a "defensive" behavior performed to both minimize the footprint of the animal and also make the animal look more intimidating to a predator.   

There is absolutely zero reason to bin feed.  That has been discussed endlessly on this and other forums.  There is no cogent argument in favor of doing it, no benefit to be had by practicing it, and only potential issues and complications by advocating it.[/QUOTE/]

I never said he was that nasty because of being fed in the cage, just that he was cage aggressive.   CAGE AGRESION MEANS, VERY TERRITORIAL AND DEFENSIVE IN CAGE BUT MELLOW OUT OF CAGE. 
I guess it's been "discussed" and is the "opinion" here makes it so. Explain why my 4' male BP, when I was feeding the other night, and was out of large rats, was sitting and staring from his cage as the others were put in the bins before any rodent was thawed, and he was not, they know totes=dinnertime. 

Now wth that being said, a snake is not likley to become cage agressive if the cage is opened more than just at feeding time, and that is not my primary pourpose for bin feeding.   I have some animals that co-habitate, therefore to prevent 2 snakes attaching to one mouse, I put them in the bin. This also gives an opportunity for cage cleaning, redecoration,etc.   

So sorry to pop you're bubble but it DOES exist, it simply is not caused soley from being cage fed. And I wil advocate any of my husbundry techniques, elementary or advanced for that matter and as I see fit.  You don't know the people I know in the hobby, the collections I have access to,  or my local reputation for the care I give my animals for that matter in the local herp scene.

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## Skiploder

> Originally Posted by Skiploder
> 
> 
> Totally different behavior set.
> 
> About every snake I has will act _defensive_ when removed from an enclosure.   That behavior can manifest by striking, by tail rattling or just by fleeing.  In the case of ball pythons, ever wonder why many of them curl up into a ball when removed from their enclosures?  Balls are less prone to bite, don't really tail rattle and instead just curl up into, well, a ball.
> 
> That is not a by-product of feeding, it is a natural response to being grabbed and removed from it's cage/drawer.
> 
> ...


Oh boy.  Somebody with thin skin has his panties in a wad..........

Before I address your little temper tantrum, I will say this - you are correct that cohabitated snakes should be fed separately.  That is the one mitigating instance where using a feeding bin is a valid practice.

Andy, mean old Uncle Skippy didn't mean to chap your tender buttocks.  I had no idea that I was dealing with such a celebrity in the herp world.  An expert with access to dignitaries in the reptile scene that would no doubt dazzle me if you dared drop their names. A person who has access to collections in the world of exotic pets that would make me fudge my boxers.  I will be much more careful in the future, for God only knows I don't want my fragile bubble popped again by someone of your eminence.

Just out of curiosity, which of your snakes are you cohabitating?  The IJs?

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frost0214 (11-27-2011),rabernet (11-28-2011)

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## Skiploder

I've made this offer before and it still stands:

Anyone who thinks that bin feeding is the way to go is welcome to come visit me when they are in my neck of the woods.

They can then take over feeding day duties in the snake house.  They can try moving the hungry cribos and indigos into bins, feed them, and then move them back. Pay careful attention to 12 lb Mojo the black tail and the psychotic yellow tail Zeppo.  Zeppo is the reason I had to get stitches on my middle finger........

If we still have all our fingers and have not gone to the ER we can move on up to the hydrodynastes, and then the thrasops.

Some of the thrasops are not cohabitated and I do bin feed the females every three days.  For the ones that are, my guests are invited to try out their mad hook skills getting the females into their bins.  I always enjoy watching a self-proclaimed hook jedi get a dose of reality trying to hook a pissed off lightning fast, venomous arboreal colubrid.

Anyone who can run the feeding day gauntlet shuttling 30+ snakes into bins without getting bit and without cheating and wearing gloves will leave here with a spare Boaphile 5 drawer 28qt rack.

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## andyroof1979

> Oh boy.  Somebody with thin skin has his panties in a wad..........
> 
> Before I address your little temper tantrum, I will say this - you are correct that cohabitated snakes should be fed separately.  That is the one mitigating instance where using a feeding bin is a valid practice.
> 
> Andy, mean old Uncle Skippy didn't mean to chap your tender buttocks.  I had no idea that I was dealing with such a celebrity in the herp world.  An expert with access to dignitaries in the reptile scene that would no doubt dazzle me if you dared drop their names. A person who has access to collections in the world of exotic pets that would make me fudge my boxers.  I will be much more careful in the future, for God only knows I don't want my fragile bubble popped again by someone of your eminence.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, which of your snakes are you cohabitating?  The IJs?


First and foremost, as a career roofer, no part of my body is thin or tender. You are the thin skinned one my friend. 


No, my IJ's do not cohab together, they are male and female closing in on breedng size.
 My male IJ and male spider share an enclosure currently, as does my female IJ, my vanilla pastel, and 1 of my albino boas share another, and my het albino male red tail and smaller albino female red tail boa currently share a enclosure for now.  
 Is this reccomended, no. Does it make me wrong for doing it, no.

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## Skiploder

> First and foremost, as a career roofer, no part of my body is thin or tender. You are the thin skinned one my friend. 
> 
> 
> No, my IJ's do not cohab together, they are male and female closing in on breedng size.
>  My male IJ and male spider share an enclosure currently, as does my female IJ, my vanilla pastel, and 1 of my albino boas share another, and my het albino male red tail and smaller albino female red tail boa currently share a enclosure for now.  
>  Is this reccomended, no. Does it make me wrong for doing it, no.


...and I'm a career dirt mover/road paver/heavy equipment operator.......so we can effectively establish that neither one of us has thin skin.

If you read my last post in this thread, you will note that I cohabitate snakes.  I do so under specific conditions and only with certain species.

I asked about IJs because I have cohabitated breeding pairs in the past (when I kept the species - I no longer do).  I have also kept several other select species together all without incident and providing that certain additional space and husbandry requirements were met.

As for cohabitating boas and mixing balls and IJs - well, I'll duck out before the poo really starts flying around here.

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## andyroof1979

> I've made this offer before and it still stands:
> 
> Anyone who thinks that bin feeding is the way to go is welcome to come visit me when they are in my neck of the woods.
> 
> They can then take over feeding day duties in the snake house.  They can try moving the hungry cribos and indigos into bins, feed them, and then move them back. Pay careful attention to 12 lb Mojo the black tail and the psychotic yellow tail Zeppo.  Zeppo is the reason I had to get stitches on my middle finger........
> 
> If we still have all our fingers and have not gone to the ER we can move on up to the hydrodynastes, and then the thrasops.
> 
> Some of the thrasops are not cohabitated and I do bin feed the females every three days.  For the ones that are, my guests are invited to try out their mad hook skills getting the females into their bins.  I always enjoy watching a self-proclaimed hook jedi get a dose of reality trying to hook a pissed off lightning fast, venomous arboreal colubrid.
> ...



Now I'm curious, why does it matter if a venomous snake is cage agressive? It's not like i'd be holding them anyway.  If I had 30+ snakes, i'd split feeding day into 2, feeding half on say Tuesday and half on Thursday. I see the reason you are against bin feeding, you have too many snakes to make it viable/ efficent. That still doesn't make it wrong for anyone else to bin feed, and I have never seen nor heard of any problems arise from bin feeding. All of my current animals are we'll socialized and love to come out of their enclosures.

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## andyroof1979

> ...and I'm a career dirt mover/road paver/heavy equipment operator.......so we can effectively establish that neither one of us has thin skin.
> 
> If you read my last post in this thread, you will note that I cohabitate snakes.  I do so under specific conditions and only with certain species.
> 
> I asked about IJs because I have cohabitated breeding pairs in the past (when I kept the species - I no longer do).  I have also kept several other select species together all without incident and providing that certain additional space and husbandry requirements were met.
> 
> As for cohabitating boas and mixing balls and IJs - well, I'll duck out before the poo really starts flying around here.


Really, I duck no where. Read some caresheets, IJ, ball python, same requirements, just add a stick for the carpet, boa same, no stick needed. As these animals grow, living arrangements will be changed, ie, the female albinos will live together, the het albino male wll be solomy female IJ will still live with the Vanilla Pastel, the male IJ and Male spider will be seperated. I do not believe in keeping breding pairs together.  These are not adult animals. I also didn't just throw them in and say we'll see what happens when I get home.  animals are sized alike, and closley observed for a few days to look for any signs of agression.

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## Skiploder

> Now I'm curious, why does it matter if a venomous snake is cage agressive? It's not like i'd be holding them anyway.  If I had 30+ snakes, i'd split feeding day into 2, feeding half on say Tuesday and half on Thursday. I see the reason you are against bin feeding, you have too many snakes to make it viable/ efficent. That still doesn't make it wrong for anyone else to bin feed, and I have never seen nor heard of any problems arise from bin feeding. All of my current animals are we'll socialized and love to come out of their enclosures.


Well, you sometimes have to medicate them and move them to clean cages.  They are not cage aggressive - they are defensive of large creatures reaching in and grabbing them.  Not all - some.  I have a couple of females that are absolute sweethearts.  

Most of my snakes eat more than once a week.  They do not eat exclusively rodent prey and are fed smaller more frequent meals.

Bins don't work for me because (1) they are an extra step that I don't need and (2) I keep some large animals that will not go out of feed mode that quickly.  Moving a hungry cribo or falsie to a bin and out of a bin does nothing but open me up to the risk of a serious bite.  Since ingesting substrate is not a risk, why bother?

Many of my snakes get handled regularly and are also taken out to be props in speeches or other presentations.  That does not dull the hard wired reaction by some to get defensive when removed from their cages.

The point is simple - a ball or carpet python or boa is not capable of sending you to the emergency room with a bite.  Even non-venomous snakes like cribos and indigos can cause serious deep cuts and lacerations that require sutures.  Regardless of how many times my snakes are handled or removed from their enclosures, I don't think that any of them find any joy let alone "love" in being subjected to it.  

Since using bins entails risk to me and exposes my animals to potential stress, I see no "pro" in using outside of the case of separating pairs.

I only keep pairs together in species that do better breeding-wise when kept in such a manner.  Any other reason usually involves convenience to the keeper, which is never a valid reason for the additional potential risks involved in cohabitation.

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## Skiploder

> Really, I duck no where. Read some caresheets, IJ, ball python, same requirements, just add a stick for the carpet, boa same, no stick needed. As these animals grow, living arrangements will be changed, ie, the female albinos will live together, the het albino male wll be solomy female IJ will still live with the Vanilla Pastel, the male IJ and Male spider will be seperated. I do not believe in keeping breding pairs together.  These are not adult animals. I also didn't just throw them in and say we'll see what happens when I get home.  animals are sized alike, and closley observed for a few days to look for any signs of agression.


Um, okay.

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## frost0214

whoa! what is going on here? hehehe. i am just asking about my BP eating some aspen bedding and it has been made clear to me that it is ok...  :Smile: 

Chill guys...  :Smile:   :Smile:   :Smile:

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## Skiploder

> whoa! what is going on here? hehehe. i am just asking about my BP eating some aspen bedding and it has been made clear to me that it is ok... 
> 
> Chill guys...


I'm predicting there's a good chance it may get alot worse.............

 :Wink:

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frost0214 (11-28-2011)

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## wwmjkd

> I'm predicting there's a good chance it may get alot worse.............


I smelled quarantine early on in this thread.

while I can't think of any legitimate reason to cohabitate three entirely distinct species simply because they have vaguely analogous husbandry requirements, I think I'll refrain from further comment. 

skiploder, after I add a few womas to my collection, indigos are next up on the list. I hope to bend your ear in a few months if you can spare a few minutes.

p.s. to the OP, independent of anyone's opinion regarding feeding in a separate enclosure, you shouldn't worry about your snake ingesting a little aspen. no cause to worry on that account.

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## Skiploder

> I smelled quarantine early on in this thread.
> 
> while I can't think of any legitimate reason to cohabitate three entirely distinct species simply because they have vaguely analogous husbandry requirements, I think I'll refrain from further comment. 
> 
> skiploder, after I add a few womas to my collection, indigos are next up on the list. I hope to bend your ear in a few months if you can spare a few minutes.
> 
> p.s. to the OP, independent of anyone's opinion regarding feeding in a separate enclosure, you shouldn't worry about your snake ingesting a little aspen. no cause to worry on that account.


Just shoot me a PM.  I have a Power Point presentation I can send you on Drys in general.  It covers most of the basics.

I remember the days when adding a pair of womas could set you back about $3K............

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## andyroof1979

> I smelled quarantine early on in this thread.
> 
> while I can't think of any legitimate reason to cohabitate three entirely distinct species simply because they have vaguely analogous husbandry requirements, I think I'll refrain from further comment. 
> 
> skiploder, after I add a few womas to my collection, indigos are next up on the list. I hope to bend your ear in a few months if you can spare a few minutes.
> 
> p.s. to the OP, independent of anyone's opinion regarding feeding in a separate enclosure, you shouldn't worry about your snake ingesting a little aspen. no cause to worry on that account.


 Please don't refrain,

I'd hardly call the care requirements of red tails, balls, and carpets "vaguely analogous", identical is the term i'd use.  All 3 require ambient temps of 70-75 cool side, 80-85 warm side, 88-94 hotspot, and 40-60% humidity.  What part of that is "vague"?

Is this reccomended for an amature snake keeper? No. Can an exierenced keeper pull it off?
Well that depends on the individual animals sex, personality, and temperment, along with making sure there is adequate space and accomodations for all inhabitants involved.

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## Kaorte

> Please don't refrain,
> 
> I'd hardly call the care requirements of red tails, balls, and carpets "vaguely analogous", identical is the term i'd use.  All 3 require ambient temps of 70-75 cool side, 80-85 warm side, 88-94 hotspot, and 40-60% humidity.  What part of that is "vague"?
> 
> Is this reccomended for an amature snake keeper? No. Can an exierenced keeper pull it off?
> Well that depends on the individual animals sex, personality, and temperment, along with making sure there is adequate space and accomodations for all inhabitants involved.


If you really want to go after the issue of cohabitation, take it somewhere else. Don't hijack someone else's thread, that is just rude. 

I have a good feeling that EVERYONE on this site will disagree with your particular cohabitation of species. There is a reason for that.

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frost0214 (11-28-2011)

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## andyroof1979

> If you really want to go after the issue of cohabitation, take it somewhere else. Don't hijack someone else's thread, that is just rude. 
> 
> I have a good feeling that EVERYONE on this site will disagree with your particular cohabitation of species. There is a reason for that.


You know what, kma, I didn't start this, I simply replied to old "uncle skippy" that some snakes are cage aggressive, that is a fact, like it or not. Some are and some aren't.  

Then all of a sudden I wear panties and have a chapped ass. It went where it went, and I don't care what everyone here thinks of me or my practices.

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## Kaorte

> You know what, kma, I didn't start this, I simply replied to old "uncle skippy" that some snakes are cage aggressive, that is a fact, like it or not. Some are and some aren't.  
> 
> Then all of a sudden I wear panties and have a chapped ass. It went where it went, and I don't care what everyone here thinks of me or my practices.


You didn't have to reply. You could have just let it go, but you didn't. You kept at it, and anyone who didn't agree with you, you encouraged to keep arguing the subject with you. 

I also do not believe in cage aggression. Skiploder is not the only person with this opinion.

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## wwmjkd

> Please don't refrain,
> 
> I'd hardly call the care requirements of red tails, balls, and carpets "vaguely analogous", identical is the term i'd use.  All 3 require ambient temps of 70-75 cool side, 80-85 warm side, 88-94 hotspot, and 40-60% humidity.  What part of that is "vague"?
> 
> Is this reccomended for an amature snake keeper? No. Can an exierenced keeper pull it off?
> Well that depends on the individual animals sex, personality, and temperment, along with making sure there is adequate space and accomodations for all inhabitants involved.


do you notice the differentials in the temperatures you just stated? ignoring for a moment how species from three different areas of the world might interact with each other in a confined space, and to say nothing of what happens should one fall ill, you've cut a pretty wide swath. regardless of the optimal husbandry parameters for each species, all snakes have individual needs and unique requirements. I have a few balls that like the cold side exclusively, some that prefer to coil atop the flexwatt. I have a boa that can't seem to make up his mind on the matter. why risk competition for space when it comes to animals that need to thermoregulate themselves?

I'm not trying to say it can't be done. perhaps you have designed a perfect enclosure that is large enough and has the appropriate temperatures to accommate the whim of each species it houses. however, I doubt it. it appears that you are cohabitating for your own convenience, not for the sake of the the animals. can it be done successfully by an experienced person? probably. but I would probably distrust that person's advice on other matters. it's not up to me to tell anyone how to keep their animals. but you asked for my opinion, and I believe I've made it clear. should the lines be too close to read between, some snakes do well cohabitating, but it's only pet stores that house boas and balls together. responsible collectors and breeders shouldn't. 

I have no doubt you'll find less cordial responses if you continue to hammer your point home. either way, best of luck. 

my apologies if this post contributes in any way to the quarantine I predicted earlier.

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## andyroof1979

> You didn't have to reply. You could have just let it go, but you didn't. You kept at it, and anyone who didn't agree with you, you encouraged to keep arguing the subject with you. 
> 
> I also do not believe in cage aggression. Skiploder is not the only person with this opinion.


Then you have never owned a cage agressive snake, I bring back my example of a corn I once had, come within 4ft of his enclosure, h'd strike the glass hard enough to dislocate his jaw, get him out, and he was a mellow fellow. What would you call that?

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## Kaorte

> Then you have never owned a cage agressive snake, I bring back my example of a corn I once had, come within 4ft of his enclosure, h'd strike the glass hard enough to dislocate his jaw, get him out, and he was a mellow fellow. What would you call that?


Stressed.

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## andyroof1979

> Stressed.


ok, stressed. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  maybe territorial, my point is you didn't even have to be trying to get him out just walk by and wham! he was just nasty as could be while in his cage.

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## andyroof1979

> do you notice the differentials in the temperatures you just stated? ignoring for a moment how species from three different areas of the world might interact with each other in a confined space, and to say nothing of what happens should one fall ill, you've cut a pretty wide swath. regardless of the optimal husbandry parameters for each species, all snakes have individual needs and unique requirements. I have a few balls that like the cold side exclusively, some that prefer to coil atop the flexwatt. I have a boa that can't seem to make up his mind on the matter. why risk competition for space when it comes to animals that need to thermoregulate themselves?
> 
> I'm not trying to say it can't be done. perhaps you have designed a perfect enclosure that is large enough and has the appropriate temperatures to accommate the whim of each species it houses. however, I doubt it. it appears that you are cohabitating for your own convenience, not for the sake of the the animals. can it be done successfully by an experienced person? probably. but I would probably distrust that person's advice on other matters. it's not up to me to tell anyone how to keep their animals. but you asked for my opinion, and I believe I've made it clear. should the lines be too close to read between, some snakes do well cohabitating, but it's only pet stores that house boas and balls together. responsible collectors and breeders shouldn't. 
> 
> I have no doubt you'll find less cordial responses if you continue to hammer your point home. either way, best of luck. 
> 
> my apologies if this post contributes in any way to the quarantine I predicted earlier.


i think everyone here has visions of a 9' boa, a 7' carpet, and a 4' ball in a little cage. the three together make about 7'

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## Kaorte

> ok, stressed. maybe territorial, my point is you didn't even have to be trying to get him out just walk by and wham! he was just nasty as could be while in his cage.


Stressed or scared. I have a hard time believing that a snake such as a ball python or a corn snake would be striking and biting because it was just "cage aggressive". The aggression is brought on by other factors: stress, fear, you.

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## andyroof1979

> Stressed or scared. I have a hard time believing that a snake such as a ball python or a corn snake would be striking and biting because it was just "cage aggressive". The aggression is brought on by other factors: stress, fear, you.


I see you have a hard time believing, so therfore it can't be true. I personally think he was big and tough and he knew it. you are extreemely ignorant.

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## Kaorte

> I see you have a hard time believing, so therfore it can't be true. I think he was big and tough and he knew it.you are a moron


Don't call me a moron... I am giving you my opinion. THE ONE  YOU ASKED FOR, REMEMBER THAT?

The reason I say I have a hard time believing it is because I don't have the proof in my hands proving one is more likely or more valid than the other. I picked the most logical explanation IN MY OPINION.

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## andyroof1979

> Don't call me a moron... I am giving you my opinion. THE ONE  YOU ASKED FOR, REMEMBER THAT?
> 
> The reason I say I have a hard time believing it is because I don't have the proof in my hands proving one is more likely or more valid than the other. I picked the most logical explanation IN MY OPINION.


if he was scared, stressed, or just didn't like me (or anyone else for that matter)
he wouldn't have calmed down the moment he got out, he would simply have kept biting.

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## frost0214

> If you really want to go after the issue of cohabitation, take it somewhere else. Don't hijack someone else's thread, that is just rude. 
> 
> I have a good feeling that EVERYONE on this site will disagree with your particular cohabitation of species. There is a reason for that.



HAHA Thanks mate! but this is really good stuff and inputs in here... oh well you have to be selective....  :Smile:

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## Skiploder

> Don't call me a moron... I am giving you my opinion. THE ONE  YOU ASKED FOR, REMEMBER THAT?
> 
> The reason I say I have a hard time believing it is because I don't have the proof in my hands proving one is more likely or more valid than the other. I picked the most logical explanation IN MY OPINION.


It's okay Steffe.  He called you a moron - after reading some of his "expertise" with the rest of us neanderthals, does that insult really sting that hard coming from him?

Let it go. These things have a wonderful way of working themselves out.

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## andyroof1979

I may have a little pet store in me, that comes from vendng 3 shows a month.

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## pigfat

ANYWAYS, the ONLY reason I take my ball out to feed him is because he's on loose eco earth, and I don't want him to swallow a lot. I know they swallow it all in the wild, but why do it if you dont have to? I just like to be safe rather than sorry.

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## kitedemon

I am going to add my feelings on the feeding tub no feeding tub. 

I do not believe there is a right and wrong here. I believe that some animals would be stressed out by being moved before feeding and simply refuse to feed some animals would not be bothered at all. I don't buy into cage aggression but some animals could be territorial and moving to a neutral location may be of benefit in breaking territorial instincts some not. Generally I don't see the need but as pigfat pointed out substrate ingestion if it can be safely avoided sure why not. I do not feed separate containers a few of mine would simply never eat and a few might refuse when they might not if left alone I have a few that would not care either way and would feed regardless but it is more work and with out good reason it isn't worth the effort.

I don't think any can make blanket statements here, there is too much of the individual animal temperament and too much species oriented behaviour. It would have to be on a case to case basis. Generally speaking it is too individual a situation to make any kind of judgement over every keeper and every snake.

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## akjadlnfkjfdkladf

> BUT!, they may get tank aggressive . that wouldnt be good,


Unless the only times you open the cage is to throw a rat in, this is absolutely false.

Some snakes are cage aggressive no matter where they're fed, some snakes are just simply laid back.

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## snowsnow777

> Yeah, you could put some paper towel down next time inside your tank (just make sure your rodent is completely dry also, and nothing will stick to it..)  I dont think you need to feed in a seperate container, that just stresses them out.
> 
> Imo your snake will be fine.  Its not like they dont get some "substrate" in their mouth in the wild.



MY BP grabbed it and twisted before I let go and that thing freaking exploded and blood is now all over his face, hide, and substrate.... I'm definitely giving him and his hide a bath tomorrow

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