# Other Pets > Dogs >  Fellow dog owners - what food do you feed?

## Marissa@MKmorphs

Hello fellow dog owners! As the time for bringing home my puppy draws near I've been researching what food to feed my corgi puppy. 

What do you feed?

Surely I'm not the only one who is wanting to feed the highest quality food possible.  :Smile: 


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## kat_black181

> Hello fellow dog owners! As the time for bringing home my puppy draws near I've been researching what food to feed my corgi puppy. 
> 
> What do you feed?
> 
> Surely I'm not the only one who is wanting to feed the highest quality food possible. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


Wellness is a bit high dollar, but it's a great food. I fed it to my dog, and he loved it.

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## TheSnakeGeek

science diet  :Good Job:

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## Marissa@MKmorphs

> science diet


Science diet is a fairly poor quality food. There are a few people I've heard that swear by SD, but in general a lot of animals don't do well on it. 

What formula do you feed?


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AdrianAlexander (10-26-2016)

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## Marissa@MKmorphs

> Wellness is a bit high dollar, but it's a great food. I fed it to my dog, and he loved it.


Wellness CORE is one of the foods that is on my radar. As are Blue Buffalo Freedom, Canidae, Taste of the Wild, and Merrick. 


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## satomi325

We do a blend of Nature's Variety Instinct commercial raw, Stella & Chewy's freeze dried commercial raw, Taste of the Wild, and grain-free Nature's Domain. Sometimes we offer feeder whole prey too, but not often.
I'd like to try Orijin/Acana some day too. My ferrets are on Orijin and raw..

Orijin, Acana, Taste of the Wild, and Wellness Core are top brands and would definitely suggest them for kibble.

Stella and Chewy's and Nature's Variety Instinct are great for commercial raw.

Science Diet is absolute crap. There is nothing very good about their food. Most of their ingredients are plant/grain/corn material. 

Check out this site: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/
It rates every dog food and breaks down evaluations ingredient by ingredient.

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AdrianAlexander (10-26-2016)

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## zach_24_90

Natural balance. Higher grade than blue buffalo. Hands down. But blue buffalo wilderness is my second pick.

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## kat_black181

> Wellness CORE is one of the foods that is on my radar. As are Blue Buffalo Freedom, Canidae, Taste of the Wild, and Merrick. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


My dog also loved Blue Buffalo. He hated Taste of the Wild for some reason!

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## Marissa@MKmorphs

> We do a blend of Nature's Variety Instinct commercial raw, Stella & Chewy's commercial freeze dried raw, Taste of the Wild, and grain-free Nature's Domain. Sometimes we offer feeder whole prey too, but not often.
> I'd like to try Orijin/Acana some day too. My ferrets are on Orijin and raw.
> 
> Orijin, Acana, Taste of the Wild, and Wellness Core are top brands and would definitely suggest them for kibble.
> 
> Stella and Chewy's and Nature's Variety Instinct are great for commercial raw.
> 
> Check out this site: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/
> It rates every dog food and breaks down evaluations ingredient by ingredient.


Thanks! I've spent a lot of time on that website. I would love to do raw but financially it's a little more than I can handle right now. I do enjoy the convenience of a top notch kibble though!


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## TerrieL

I like to feed raw to my dogs, but if I have to feed a kibble I feed Orijen.

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## toyota89

I feed earth born to my dog and cats


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## LaFilleClochette

I feed my dog Fromm... It's not too badly priced. But is currently only in smaller stores ( mainly not petco or petsmart)


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_dsirkle_ (10-07-2013)

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## The Serpent Merchant

My Husky and German Shepherd/Lab mix are on raw diet and blue buffalo, with lots of uncooked meaty bones to chew on.

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## PweEzy

Ive fed Blue Wilderness to my pup since i got him a year and a half ago. It's grain-free and has a couple flavors so I can switch it up for him every once in a while.

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## Amberlove

I feed my corgi/poodle mix Taste of the Wild. She's done really good on it and she's been on it since I got her as a puppy 2 years ago. With her being part corgi and I know corgis can have weight problems I was concerned and wanted her on the best food for her and this has seemed to work. She is 30 pounds and not an inch of fat!

as a puppy:



as an adult:

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## Crazymonkee

When I feed kibble it's Wellness Core. I'm a raw feeder

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## 3skulls

Taste of the Wild

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## dsirkle

I feed my dog Fromm Adult Gold. Meat is the first ingredient (duck) and it has 24% protein.

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## spider_ball

I feed my blue tongue skink dog food as a primary source of protein, and I like grain free ones. I use Wellness Core, Blue Buffalo, and (Halo?) Spots Stew  (the wet versions, but those are good brands)  :Good Job:

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## TheSnakeGuy

*To all who are feeding raw diets:* Keep it at a minimum, raw diets are ALWAYS deficient in certain vitamins and minerals that are present for a reason in dry, semi-moist, and wet manufactured pet foods. 

Remember: Dogs are *NOT* obligate carnivores. No, not even wolves.

And Science Diet is not bad food, it was once top of the line. The bar has just been raised and now it's a mid-grade food that can easily sustain good overall health in many many breeds.

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## Holtgards

We Use Nutrena River Run High Pro 50# bags for 21.00 and have always been a fan of Nutrena products

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## Monty the BP

Working in the Veterinary field for over 8 yrs I always feed Medi-Cal/Royal Canin. The company will always support you and your puppy  :Smile:  they always have Veterinarians on standby as well  :Wink:  Great food. Having said that what works for my dogs may not work for yours. Don't buy into the "hype" just because they say they add blueberry for example does not mean it has blueberries. In Canada the only thing that has to be legally correct on a food bag is the weight.....very scary Good luck with your new puppy

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## Aztec4mia

Kirkland brand from Costco alternating between chicken and lamb, fish oil and vitamin E, coconut oil & raw meaty bones every now and then.
both are shepherd mixes.

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## MootWorm

My dogs absolutely hated blue buffalo. We ended up having to mix some water in to make a 'gravy' in order to finish the bag lol. They seem to really enjoy taste of the wild though, and their coats and overall body types are in really good condition.

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## Monty the BP

> Kirkland brand from Costco alternating between chicken and lamb, fish oil and vitamin E, coconut oil & raw meaty bones every now and then.
> both are shepherd mixes.


You know I bred and showed pugs for 7 yrs and so many breeders use the Natures Domain which is only sold at Costco, they swear by it. I did a lot of research on that brand and have to say it seems to be a good brand.

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## norwegn113

I feed my dogs Canidae dog food. All life stages. It is a really good grade food. When looking at dog food look for the K/cals. Per cup. It is the nutritional value of the food that can be metabolized. Many big name brands have very low K/cals. It is listed on each bag somewhere near the ingredients.  Hope that helps?

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## Expensive hobby

Taste of the Wild here. Wetlands formula to be exact. My dogs have never been more healthy once I switched over


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## Aztec4mia

> You know I bred and showed pugs for 7 yrs and so many breeders use the Natures Domain which is only sold at Costco, they swear by it. I did a lot of research on that brand and have to say it seems to be a good brand.


The kirkland brand gets the job done and is reasonably priced for a 40# bag, and has a 4 star rating on that dog food advisor website that was posted earlier.

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## anatess

Raw feeder here.  I budget $1.30 per pound and with 3 dogs it all amounts to the same as Blue Buffalo.

If I have to go kibble, I would go with Blue Buffalo Wilderness or Earthborn Holistics Primitive Natural as they are most accessible.  Fromm is also a good one but harder to find.  You can get it from petflow.com and if you use ENGLISHBULLDOGS (if that doesn't work try it without the S) in the promotion you can get free shipping for packages over 45 lbs.  Yes, I have English Bulldogs who are one of the most finicky dogs as far as nutrition go.

And for whoever said something about dogs not being obligate carnivores... yes, they are not obligate carnivores but they are carnivores nonetheless.  The difference between an obligate carnivore and a non-obligate carnivore is that an obligate carnivore cannot process non-meat food at all whereas a non-obligate carnivore can process non-meat proteins if that's the only opportunity presented but their physiology is optimized for meat.  Or in simpler terms - a lion is an obligate carnivore and will die if there is no meat to eat, whereas a dog is a non-obligate carnivore and eats whole prey but if they can't find one, they'll make do with whatever protein they can find.

Now, very important words here - whole prey.  If you only feed your dog ground beef and chicken legs you're not giving your dog whole prey and would then have a nutritionally deficient diet.

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_GoingPostal_ (10-08-2013),_satomi325_ (10-08-2013),_sorraia_ (10-08-2013)

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## satomi325

I agree with Anatess. Raw is the best diet to feed a dog. Or any carnivorous pet for the matter. Raw is only bad if it is unbalanced(I.e only using ground and not including organs or bones for example). True finely tuned meals are based off a prey model diet and are does not cause deficiencies. Some people even feed whole carcasses to avoid missing anything.

A dog on kibble is nothing like a dog on a balanced raw diet. The physical difference is an eye opener. 

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Crazymonkee (10-08-2013),_GoingPostal_ (10-08-2013),_sorraia_ (10-08-2013)

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## Marissa@MKmorphs

> *To all who are feeding raw diets:* Keep it at a minimum, raw diets are ALWAYS deficient in certain vitamins and minerals that are present for a reason in dry, semi-moist, and wet manufactured pet foods. 
> 
> Remember: Dogs are *NOT* obligate carnivores. No, not even wolves.
> 
> And Science Diet is not bad food, it was once top of the line. The bar has just been raised and now it's a mid-grade food that can easily sustain good overall health in many many breeds.


I could see how SD was once a great food. If you compare ingredients, it does use a lot more by-products and non-animal protein sources. These days for the same price you can get a much higher quality food. Each dog is different though!


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_satomi325_ (10-08-2013)

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## Mike41793

> *To all who are feeding raw diets:* Keep it at a minimum, raw diets are ALWAYS deficient in certain vitamins and minerals that are present for a reason in dry, semi-moist, and wet manufactured pet foods. 
> 
> Remember: Dogs are *NOT* obligate carnivores. No, not even wolves.
> 
> And Science Diet is not bad food, it was once top of the line. The bar has just been raised and now it's a mid-grade food that can easily sustain good overall health in many many breeds.


Raw diets don't just include meat... A well balanced raw diet has everything the dog needs and is perfectly safe and healthy to feed.

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Crazymonkee (10-08-2013),_satomi325_ (10-08-2013),_sorraia_ (10-08-2013)

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## pookie!

> *To all who are feeding raw diets:* Keep it at a minimum, raw diets are ALWAYS deficient in certain vitamins and minerals that are present for a reason in dry, semi-moist, and wet manufactured pet foods. 
> 
> Remember: Dogs are *NOT* obligate carnivores. No, not even wolves.
> 
> And Science Diet is not bad food, it was once top of the line. The bar has just been raised and now it's a mid-grade food that can easily sustain good overall health in many many breeds.


That is 100% FALSE! A proper fed RAW diet is not deficient in anything, thats like saying YOU only feeding your snakes rats is making it deficient in vitamins and minerals. 

DOGS ARE CARNIVORES FACT. BUT if you are still one of the weirdos who thinks they arent OR you heavily work a dog you can go with the BARF or semi-BARF diet (like we will be doing come heavier work season). That includes some vegetable matter BUT for dogs to digest vegetable matter you need top blanch it (cook) and then blend it into a paste otherwise it passes through and little if any is absorbed, you know, cuz they are carnivores and all. 

A little snippit from some research I have done over the years of raw feeding 

"3.) Internal anatomy and physiology

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant mattereven preprocessed plant matterare unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs."

I wouldnt say raw feeding is the end all be all to dog health, and have seen some dogs who do terrible but the majority thrive on it, they dont just live and survive but THRIVE and you dont completely understand that until you start feeding an animal a species appropriate diet. 

My dog has been on PMR (prey model raw, so zero vegetable matter) for almost 3 years now.. 




This is our other dog, PMR fed since Jan 






People seem to think and forget that a proper raw diet contains specific amounts of muscle meat, bone, organs and you can add in oils, green tripe, eggs, apple cider vinegar, and yes the odd vegetable that can benefit your dog if you so choose upon proper preparation for it to be beneficial. 

Typical meal for our dogs

 (chicken quarter, chicken gizzard, hamburger, beef liver, mackerel, whole egg, acv, and fish oil)

The problem is when people not educated on the subject try and explain it. 

If anyone is interested in learning about or starting a raw diet with their dogs, here ya go.. factual information http://preymodelraw.com/page/articles.html

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_Coleslaw007_ (10-08-2013),Crazymonkee (10-08-2013),_Kinra_ (10-08-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-08-2013),_satomi325_ (10-08-2013),_sorraia_ (10-08-2013)

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## pookie!

> *To all who are feeding raw diets:* Keep it at a minimum, raw diets are ALWAYS deficient in certain vitamins and minerals that are present for a reason in dry, semi-moist, and wet manufactured pet foods. 
> 
> Remember: Dogs are *NOT* obligate carnivores. No, not even wolves.
> 
> And Science Diet is not bad food, it was once top of the line. The bar has just been raised and now it's a mid-grade food that can easily sustain good overall health in many many breeds.


That is 100% FALSE! A proper fed RAW diet is not deficient in anything, thats like saying YOU only feeding your snakes rats is making it deficient in vitamins and minerals. 

DOGS ARE CARNIVORES FACT. BUT if you are still one of the weirdos who thinks they arent OR you heavily work a dog you can go with the BARF or semi-BARF diet (like we will be doing come heavier work season). That includes some vegetable matter BUT for dogs to digest vegetable matter you need top blanch it (cook) and then blend it into a paste otherwise it passes through and little if any is absorbed, you know, cuz they are carnivores and all. 

A little snippit from some research I have done over the years of raw feeding 

"3.) Internal anatomy and physiology

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant mattereven preprocessed plant matterare unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs."

I wouldnt say raw feeding is the end all be all to dog health, and have seen some dogs who do terrible but the majority thrive on it, they dont just live and survive but THRIVE and you dont completely understand that until you start feeding an animal a species appropriate diet. 

My dog has been on PMR (prey model raw, so zero vegetable matter) for almost 3 years now.. 




This is our other dog, PMR fed since Jan 






We have half a litter of puppies here now too and they will starting raw once the bulk are shipped off to their new homes  :Smile: 

People seem to think and forget that a proper raw diet contains specific amounts of muscle meat, bone, organs and you can add in oils, green tripe, eggs, apple cider vinegar, and yes the odd vegetable that can benefit your dog if you so choose upon proper preparation for it to be beneficial. 

Typical meal for our dogs

 (chicken quarter, chicken gizzard, hamburger, beef liver, mackerel, whole egg, acv, and fish oil)

The problem is when people not educated on the subject try and explain it. 

If anyone is interested in learning about or starting a raw diet with their dogs, here ya go.. factual information http://preymodelraw.com/page/articles.html

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## AlexisFitzy

I fed my dog pedigree his whole life and he grew up to be a big strong wonderful doggy  :Smile:  Pedigree was the only brand of dog food that didn't give him horrible gas and diarrhea. 


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## Mrl249

We feed pedigree large breed, never heard of raw feeding looks interesting. This is my big girl  :Smile:

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_satomi325_ (10-08-2013)

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## TheSnakeGuy

It's not false. Nor is it objective research. It's me sitting in my Animal Nutrition course, which is aimed entirely at the nutritional requirements of canine/feline diets what good methods are for providing them with solid maintenance nutrition throughout all life stages.

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## Kinra

My mutts get feed Earthborn.  My lab gets the coast catch (grain free and fished based) and the pup gets the puppy variety.  I love Earthborn and my dogs seem to love it as well.

It's amazing the difference quality food will make in a dog.  My lab gets a lot of comments because he has a beautiful black coat that is really shinny.  When I got my puppy they were feeding Purina Puppy Chow, after slowly switching him to the Earthborn puppy food the change in his coat was amazing.

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## sorraia

My dogs (and cats) are on a purely raw diet. I'm following the "prey model" version of the raw diet, which involves feeding ratios of meat, bone, and organ that would mimic that found in a whole prey animal. These don't necessarily need to be fed on a daily basis, as long as the overall diet (say within a week's time) comes out to the right ratio. No supplements necessary. My cats have been on this diet for more than 7 years, my older dog for more than 5 years, and my younger dog for almost as long as I've had her (she's going on 3 years now, got her when she was 3 months old, and switched her to this diet after she got out of the vet hospital and recovered from parvo). They are doing fabulously, always a perfect 5 on the body condition scale, vet always has good things to say about their health, bloodwork always perfect, teeth in excellent condition, etc. I couldn't be happier.

Oh and in terms of cost... I have actually found raw to be LESS expensive than a high quality kibble. That will depend on your location and availability too. I'm part of a local co-op and able to purchase my raw foods in bulk (human-grade food too, so I can eat it also if I choose!). Only catch is having a freezer to store it in.

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_Coleslaw007_ (10-08-2013),_GoingPostal_ (10-08-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-08-2013),_satomi325_ (10-08-2013)

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## anatess

And about Science Diet.  It is crap food.

They went through an overhaul last year - getting new packaging, re-formulating to make the product seem like it has more animal-based protein now, getting rid of artificial dyes and animal by-products... but looking at it closely it is still the same crap food it was.  Yes, meat is now the first ingredient but then it is followed by a whole bunch of high-protein cereals.  Which means, most of the protein still come from plants, not animals.  

So, you ask, so what?  So what if the main source of protein is corn or rice?  It is still high protein!  Protein is the most critical nutrient in a dog's diet.  Dogs require 22 amino acids for its survival - if only 1 of these amino acids is missing, the rest of the amino acids cannot do the needed function.  Protein is the carrier for these amino acids.  A dog can produce its own amino acids by breaking down proteins.  But the dog's body cannot produce 10 out of the 22 amino acids that is essential for its survival on its own, so it needs to get those amino acids directly from the protein it consumes.

But, not all proteins contain those 10 missing amino acids.  And in addition to that, not all protein sources are digestible to dogs (low biological value).  Basically, my leather shoe that my dog likes to chew is rich in protein - but when the dog poops, the pieces of leather comes out undigested, so it has practically no nutritional value to the dog.  So, what we need to do is to find a good protein source that has a high biological value to the dog and is rich in all 10 of these amino acids.

Proteins from animals have a much higher chance of containing all of these amino acids than plant material.  But not all body parts of an animal is a good source either.  Beaks, hoofs, and most animal by-products are rich in protein but is of low biological value and is not rich in those missing aminos.  So, when you see a dog food that boasts of high protein content but contains the words (any kind of animal) by-product, that's low quality.

You can also get these essential aminos from the right combination of plant matter.  But, plant matter has low biological value to a dog.  Think about this - biological value is measured from 1 to 100.  100 is egg - a dog can digest and use 100% of a raw egg.  Fish meal is 92.  Beef is 78.  Corn is 54.  Wheat gluten is 40.  So, basically, a dog can only use 54% of a corn's protein.  So, you see a dog food bag and it lists Protein at 25% and you think, that's high protein, and you realize, a big bunch of it comes from corn, so you can just go ahead and slash half of it because it's not going to get digested.  And what's more, plant matter is high in carbohydrates.  Carbohydrates is not essential to a dog.  The dog can break it down and use it for energy but it is not very efficient in doing so.  Basically, most of the carbs-breakdown-work is done by the pancreas which is very taxing on a dog's system.  So, the more carbs a dog food contains, the bigger chance you got of a sick dog.

Anyway, vets sell Science Diet in their offices.   This is even well before Science diet overhauled their formula last year.  Vets are terrible at dog nutrition because vet schools are sponsored by dog food companies.  So, unless they do their own research on the matter, they just go by what dog food company researchers say.  Of course, that research has bias.  They're working for the dog food company.  And so they go open their vet practice... and they get subsidy if they prescribe or carry Science Diet in their offices.

So yeah, this is such a long-winded post just to say... Science Diet is still crap food.

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## sorraia

> *To all who are feeding raw diets:* Keep it at a minimum, raw diets are ALWAYS deficient in certain vitamins and minerals that are present for a reason in dry, semi-moist, and wet manufactured pet foods. 
> 
> Remember: Dogs are *NOT* obligate carnivores. No, not even wolves.
> 
> And Science Diet is not bad food, it was once top of the line. The bar has just been raised and now it's a mid-grade food that can easily sustain good overall health in many many breeds.





> It's not false. Nor is it objective research. It's me sitting in my Animal Nutrition course, which is aimed entirely at the nutritional requirements of canine/feline diets what good methods are for providing them with solid maintenance nutrition throughout all life stages.


I'm not going to repeat everything everyone has already said. I am going to say I disagree with your assessment of raw diets. I have to ask, what kind of animal nutrition course you are taking, and who is funding it (or who is funding the professors). Nutritional research is notoriously flawed to show results in favor of the funding source. Ive been doing nutritional research for a few years, including reading articles from scientific journals (over 100 articles downloaded). This is the trend Ive seen in doing my research. If the funding source says xyz nutrient or food is healthy, then the research study will show the same. If the funding source says xyz nutrient or food is unhealthy, then the research study will show the same. Its a flawed system, and there are ways to tweak studies without outright lying. What this means is you need to take everything you read and hear with a grain of salt, and do your own research.
Dogs are carnivores. They are not obligate carnivores like a cat is, but they are carnivores. Canines are only opportunistically omnivorous. Some species (i.e. foxes) are a little more opportunistic than others. Typically the plant matter canines will consume are sweet tasting fruits. Courser plant matter that is available year round (i.e. leaves) cant be digested by canines, as they do not have the digestive system. (I say this not only from my independent research on nutrition and physiology, but also as a biologist by trade.) 
As I stated in my other reply, my dogs and cats are on a purely prey-model raw diet. They have been for years. They get blood work done at least once a year, and are regularly seen by the vet. Everything always comes back normal, and ideal. If a raw diet werent complete and healthy for them, Id be seeing that by now.

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## anatess

> I fed my dog pedigree his whole life and he grew up to be a big strong wonderful doggy  Pedigree was the only brand of dog food that didn't give him horrible gas and diarrhea.


What other foods have you tried?




> We feed pedigree large breed, never heard of raw feeding looks interesting. This is my big girl


Lots of people fed their dogs Pedigree and they grew up to be relatively healthy dogs well into old age.  It's just like ball pythons getting fed small mouse all their life and they still thrive and grow up to be relatively healthy snakes well into old age.

It's crap food and should not be recommended, but, of course, you decide what is good for your dog or ball python.

When you have dogs like English Bulldogs you'll see a drastic difference with Pedigree and the like.  Purebred English Bulldogs fed on Pedigree is a sure bet of $$$ vet bills.

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## anatess

And here's my dog "pantry".  Yep!  I scored a 21 cubic feet freezer in craigslist for $100.  If I fed my snakes FT, this would be where it would go... but I feed live, so the dogs and the birds get to own the freezer.

And yeah, those small yellow tubs?  Pork brains.  Yep!  $1.99/lb at the local meat market.  And the thing on the bottom that says "treats" - lamb liver, chicken liver, rabbit liver, beef liver... all kinds of liver.  Yum.  LOL.

Each container is one serving.  1 day for 1 dog.  So, my kids can just grab a container for each dog to thaw before they go to bed and they can feed them in the morning.  Easy breazy.

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_Buttons_ (10-08-2013),_satomi325_ (10-08-2013),_sorraia_ (10-08-2013),_TerrieL_ (10-08-2013)

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## jclaiborne

I started with Taste of the Wild, and then moved through all the "high end" foods, seemed like nothing worked for all of my dogs, until I tried Kirkland brand.  Now that is all I feed.  They all love it and with 5 dogs its a great dog food for a great price.

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## AlexisFitzy

Oh well, I wasn't really recommending pedigree 100% I just wanted to say that that's what my dog ate. He was a bouvier des Flanders/Golden Retriever mix and was a very very large dog. We've tried lots of different foods can't remember them all specifically because we tried a long time ago in his teen years. But kibbles and bits was the main one that gave him gas and diarrhea the others he just wouldn't eat. He was really picky.  But that's was just for him personally. I don't know what makes pedigree such a bad dog food and I'd like to know why you think that. I can't really recommend a dog food for your new corgi puppy. Just try whatever you think is best and something that he will eat. Dogs don't eat all kinds of dog food. But Hossy lived for 15 years which is very long for a dog his size. When we did take him to the vet the veterinarian told us that he was doing amazingly well for his age and size. He never had any serious health issues. His only Heath issue was allergies. We had to put him to sleep this year August 10th because he was very very old and was struggling so much just to walk and go to the bathroom and really enjoy life. But whatever dog food you choose I hope it carries your new puppy through a long long happy life  :Smile:  


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## TheSnakeGuy

I attend the Vet Tech Institute of Houston. Nationally accredited program, and one of many existing schools. My nutrition class isn't geared or biased toward anything other than knowing what it takes to make up a healthy animal diet. They wouldn't be teaching us anything that we weren't meant to pass on to pet parents to ensure their animals' health. There is no emphasis towards any specific food brand or type.

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## Cipher

I do a rotation diet. Currently I'm feeding Merrick, but I've fed everything from Nature's Variety Instinct to Orijen to Fromm and many, many more. Always grain free. I change brands after every 12-15 lb bag, but I have a small dog so it takes a few months to get through one bag. I like trying different brands, and I really think my dog appreciates the variety. These days I can switch his food cold turkey without having to do the annoying transition thing, which is nice.

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## satomi325

Dogs have been eating and thriving on raw far longer than kibble has been invented.
I agree with 100% with Pookie, Sorraia, and Anatess. A balanced raw diet does not cause deficiencies and I personally believe that SciDiet is still really nasty/below average. Might as well put a dog on a bread and hotdog diet in my opinion.

(The first 5 ingredients of a kibble is the bulk of the diet.)
The first 12 ingredients of an adult Science Diet:
Ingredients: Lamb meal, brewers rice, brown rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, whole grain sorghum, animal fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), cracked pearled barley, chicken liver flavor, flaxseed, lactic acid.

Now compared to a quality kibble.
Orijen adult kibble:
First 12 ingredients: Boneless chicken, chicken meal, chicken liver, whole herring, boneless turkey, turkey meal, turkey liver, whole eggs, boneless walleye, whole salmon, chicken heart, chicken cartilage

Orijen Freeze dry:
First 12 ingredients: Chicken (ground with bone), turkey (ground with bone), whole herring, chicken liver, chicken heart, whole eggs, spinach greens, pea fiber, turkey liver, turkey heart, whole flounder

And I don't think I have to explain a raw diet. Especially if its whole prey.

I've taken a number of animal biology, physiology, and nutritional courses myself.
Studied Animal and Wildlife Biology at UC Davis with a little Animal Science on the side.
And was praised for feeding raw by their vet school staff.
Most of my ferrets are fed whole prey. Only one is a strict kibble eater because he doesn't want to switch, but he's fed Orijen cat.(Ironically, his name is Pookie)
My dogs are on a mixed kibble/raw now, but I would like to transition to 100% raw.

In the end, everyone should feed what works for you and your dog. But know that not all food is made equally. Surviving, living, and thriving are completely different things.

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_Coleslaw007_ (10-09-2013),_kat_black181_ (10-08-2013),_Kinra_ (10-08-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-08-2013),_sorraia_ (10-08-2013),_TerrieL_ (10-08-2013)

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## anatess

> I attend the Vet Tech Institute of Houston. Nationally accredited program, and one of many existing schools. My nutrition class isn't geared or biased toward anything other than knowing what it takes to make up a healthy animal diet. They wouldn't be teaching us anything that we weren't meant to pass on to pet parents to ensure their animals' health. There is no emphasis towards any specific food brand or type.


What does your Nationally Accredited Program say about the biological value of Brewer's Rice, Brown Rice, Corn Gluten, and Whole Wheat to a dog's diet?  I would think that this program has mentioned that by FDA regulations, a dog food's ingredients list has to be listed according to pre-processed volume, right?  Those 4 ingredients are in the top 5 ingredients list of Science Diet.

Also what does the Vet Tech Institute of Houston say about the 24% protein content of Science Diet?  Does it think that most of that protein comes from the animal meat that is listed as the first ingredient, or does it think that it comes mostly from the next 4 ingredients?

Wait, even before that... does the Vet Tech Institute of Houston believe this claim from the Hill's website:
_Corn is an excellent ingredient because of the benefits it brings to the product. Corn is a highly nutritious ingredient chosen as a source of protein (for muscle and tissue growth), carbohydrates (for energy), fiber, antioxidants (Beta-carotene, Vitamin E, Lutein) and linoleic acid - an essential fatty acid that promotes healthy skin and a luxurious coat.

Hill's uses grades 1 and 2 corn for our pet foods, which are the grades traditionally used for human food products. 

While some individuals are concerned about allergies in pets, corn is NOT a common cause of adverse food reactions in pets. Studies have shown that corn causes no more food allergies than any other grain.

Most grains, including corn, are poorly digested before they are cooked. Once cooked, however, they become highly digestible. Corn is also highly digestible, higher than several other grains such as rice, wheat, barley and sorghum._

Does the Vet Tech Institute of Houston teach that just because Corn is finely ground and cooked which makes it highly digestible that that makes its proteins have a high biological value?  (In case your school did not teach you this, corn has a biological value rating of 54% compared to muscle meat at 92%).

And, on top of that, does the nutrition class mention anything about the glycemic index of finely ground cooked corn and how that affects dogs?

There are a jillion more moving pieces to this... these are just the main things that are easily "pointable".

I really, honestly, want to know what that school is teaching you about dog nutrition.

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_kat_black181_ (10-08-2013),_Kinra_ (10-08-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-08-2013),_sorraia_ (10-08-2013)

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## anatess

> I don't know what makes pedigree such a bad dog food and I'd like to know why you think that.


This is really a crazy thread.  We're talking dog food and I, among others, are telling people about the difference between feeding high quality food versus Pedigree and Science Diet...

For all we know, we're talking to people who feed Fruit Loops to their kids everyday for breakfast and chicken nuggets for lunch (very common thing in the USA).

If you're the fruit loops/chicken nuggets to your kids kinda person, the Pedigree is just going to fly over your head.  Lots of children grow up and die of old age eating Fruit Loops for breakfast.

So, we Prey-Model Raw feeders would be like your human Paleo Dieters.  The BARF/Blue Buffalo/Fromm/etc crowd are those who would go buy their groceries from Whole Foods and maybe the edges of Publix where the fresh stuff is or the middle part under the Health Food sign.  The Science Dieters would be those who buy the main bulk of their groceries from the middle of Publix, and the Pedigree folks would be those who feed mainly on Ramen Noodles.

Here's the first 3 Pedigree ingredients:
Ground whole corn, corn gluten meal, poultry by-product meal

Corn - high protein, low biological value.  Poultry by-product... beaks, feet, dregs.  Maybe feathers.  Maybe unidentifiable bird-like roadkill.  High protein, low biological value.

In other words... Ramen Noodles.  Crap Food.

What's very interesting about this is that there are lots of people who feed Prey-Model Raw, or BARF, or Fromm, or Blue Buffalo to their dogs who feed Fruit Loops everyday for breakfast and chicken nuggets everyday for lunch to their kids.

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_kat_black181_ (10-08-2013)

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## Buttons

I feed my pup Fromm. It was what her previous owner had started her on (their bulldog would only eat Fromm). I've stuck with it because it's a good food that she enjoys. Her coat is fantastic and her bowel movements are fine. Vet says she's 100% healthy. 

Only downfall is if I grab the salmon one by accident she gets some horrible horrible horrible gas.  :Rage:

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## AlexisFitzy

> This is really a crazy thread.  We're talking dog food and I, among others, are telling people about the difference between feeding high quality food versus Pedigree and Science Diet...
> 
> For all we know, we're talking to people who feed Fruit Loops to their kids everyday for breakfast and chicken nuggets for lunch (very common thing in the USA).
> 
> If you're the fruit loops/chicken nuggets to your kids kinda person, the Pedigree is just going to fly over your head.  Lots of children grow up and die of old age eating Fruit Loops for breakfast.
> 
> So, we Prey-Model Raw feeders would be like your human Paleo Dieters.  The BARF/Blue Buffalo/Fromm/etc crowd are those who would go buy their groceries from Whole Foods and maybe the edges of Publix where the fresh stuff is or the middle part under the Health Food sign.  The Science Dieters would be those who buy the main bulk of their groceries from the middle of Publix, and the Pedigree folks would be those who feed mainly on Ramen Noodles.
> 
> Here's the first 3 Pedigree ingredients:
> ...


Wow...this is one of the reasons I don't post a lot on this forum because someone always wants to argue about and opinionated/from experience comment. Or argue about a question that doesn't have a 100% correct answer. I didn't comment to argue. There is no perfect dog food to feed your dog. You feed your dog whatever You think is best and whatever food your dog will eat. My dog Would Not eat high priced dog food. If feeding my dog the only food he would eat makes me a bad person than I guess I'm an awful person that would feed my future children fruit loops and chicken nuggets. I don't really appreciate being labeled like that and anyone else who fed their dog the things you listed as bad probably would feel the same way. But that's all I have to say about this subject...To the OP once again whatever you decide to feed your new corgi puppy I hope it carries your dog through a long happy life with you  :Smile:  keep us updated on him! Corgis are so cute! 


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## kat_black181

> Wow...this is one of the reasons I don't post a lot on this forum because someone always wants to argue about and opinionated/from experience comment. Or argue about a question that doesn't have a 100% correct answer. I didn't comment to argue. There is no perfect dog food to feed your dog. You feed your dog whatever You think is best and whatever food your dog will eat. My dog Would Not eat high priced dog food. If feeding my dog the only food he would eat makes me a bad person than I guess I'm an awful person that would feed my future children fruit loops and chicken nuggets. I don't really appreciate being labeled like that and anyone else who fed their dog the things you listed as bad probably would feel the same way. But that's all I have to say about this subject...To the OP once again whatever you decide to feed your new corgi puppy I hope it carries your dog through a long happy life with you  keep us updated on him! Corgis are so cute! 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


I think the main point people are trying to make is that the main ingredients in a lot of brand name dog foods are actually things that dogs were never meant to eat and that can actually hurt their health. Dogs are not biologically designed to be able to digest corn or wheat or the artificial colorings and flavorings in most of these foods.

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_Buttons_ (10-09-2013),_Kinra_ (10-08-2013),_satomi325_ (10-08-2013),_TerrieL_ (10-18-2013)

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## Mike41793

> Wow...this is one of the reasons I don't post a lot on this forum because someone always wants to argue about and opinionated/from experience comment. Or argue about a question that doesn't have a 100% correct answer. I didn't comment to argue. There is no perfect dog food to feed your dog. You feed your dog whatever You think is best and whatever food your dog will eat. My dog Would Not eat high priced dog food. If feeding my dog the only food he would eat makes me a bad person than I guess I'm an awful person that would feed my future children fruit loops and chicken nuggets. I don't really appreciate being labeled like that and anyone else who fed their dog the things you listed as bad probably would feel the same way. But that's all I have to say about this subject...To the OP once again whatever you decide to feed your new corgi puppy I hope it carries your dog through a long happy life with you  keep us updated on him! Corgis are so cute! 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


Theres a difference between price and quality, you're confusing the two. Raw diets, as others have said in the thread, can actually be cheaper than feeding kibble. You just have to plan a little and buy stuff in bulk. Your dog relies on you for food, just like your kids will. If you wanna feed your dog crappy food then go for it. It can't say no. It won't know its bad to eat. If you wanna feed your kids crappy mcdonalds everyday then go for it, they wont know its bad for them. There are cheaper, wayyyy healthier alternatives though. Rice and beans beats a big mac in price and nutrition. You see what i mean?

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## AlexisFitzy

> I think the main point people are trying to make is that the main ingredients in a lot of brand name dog foods are actually things that dogs were never meant to eat and that can actually hurt their health. Dogs are not biologically designed to be able to digest corn or wheat or the artificial colorings and flavorings in most of these foods.


I totally understand that 100% but saying that this one dog food is crap and this other dog food is great doesn't really help. Every dog is different and has different taste. Every dog on earth isn't going to eat this wonderful high priced awesome food that's supposed to be perfect. My dog wouldn't touch the highest quality of food. He was just picky. But if your dog will eat the high priced "quality" stuff then go ahead and feed it to them but if not, you have to feed it what it will eat. That's just my opinion. 


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## kat_black181

> I totally understand that 100% but saying that this one dog food is crap and this other dog food is great doesn't really help. Every dog is different and has different taste. Every dog on earth isn't going to eat this wonderful high priced awesome food that's supposed to be perfect. My dog wouldn't touch the highest quality of food. He was just picky. But if your dog will eat the high priced "quality" stuff then go ahead and feed it to them but if not, you have to feed it what it will eat. That's just my opinion. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


There are many many quality brands of dog food, so I think there's probably one that will suit your dog. It just takes a bit of trial and error.

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## spider_ball

> This is really a crazy thread.  We're talking dog food and I, among others, are telling people about the difference between feeding high quality food versus Pedigree and Science Diet...
> 
> For all we know, we're talking to people who feed Fruit Loops to their kids everyday for breakfast and chicken nuggets for lunch (very common thing in the USA).
> 
> *If you're the fruit loops/chicken nuggets to your kids kinda person, the Pedigree is just going to fly over your head.  Lots of children grow up and die of old age eating Fruit Loops for breakfast.*
> 
> So, we Prey-Model Raw feeders would be like your human Paleo Dieters.  The BARF/Blue Buffalo/Fromm/etc crowd are those who would go buy their groceries from Whole Foods and maybe the edges of Publix where the fresh stuff is or the middle part under the Health Food sign.  The Science Dieters would be those who buy the main bulk of their groceries from the middle of Publix, and the Pedigree folks would be those who feed mainly on Ramen Noodles.
> 
> Here's the first 3 Pedigree ingredients:
> ...


Have to agree with everything that was mentioned here. Just because your dog/child (basically the same thing, especially if you don't have children) only likes Pedigree/Fruit Loops and lives to an old age doesn't mean they lived healthily. There is a HUGE difference between living to an old age and THRIVING to an old age. When you look at a dogs coat/teeth/breath/poop....you can tell if they are a low-quality food eater or a high-quality food eater.

What if your child only wanted to eat McDonalds??? Hasn't everyone seen Supersize Me? Would you give in? I am not a picky eater at all, and that is because growing up my parents exposed me to a variety of different (and healthy) foods. I remember there always being a slab of protein (fish, chicken, beef, pork, etc) a couple different veggies, and sometimes a whole grain carb (rice, bread). Home-cooked suppers 7 nights a week....not frozen chicken nuggets and microwave hungry man dinners. 

To the OP: Do some research before purchasing a brand of food. Read the ingredients list, and use common sense. How in the world could "Ground whole corn, corn gluten meal, poultry by-product meal" sound/be healthier than "Chicken (ground with bone), turkey (ground with bone), whole herring". CORN IS CRAP! It is just a filler!! Why pay $50 for a bag of corn when you can pay $60 for a bag of chicken?

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_satomi325_ (10-08-2013),_TerrieL_ (10-18-2013)

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## AlexisFitzy

Whelp I'm done talking. But I hope you can find some great dog food for your puppy  :Smile:  


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## pookie!

> It's not false. Nor is it objective research. It's me sitting in my Animal Nutrition course, which is aimed entirely at the nutritional requirements of canine/feline diets what good methods are for providing them with solid maintenance nutrition throughout all life stages.


Where are you taking this course and who is paying for it, because 99% of the animal nutrition courses are payed for byyyyy dog food companies! 




> I attend the Vet Tech Institute of Houston. Nationally accredited program, and one of many existing schools. My nutrition class isn't geared or biased toward anything other than knowing what it takes to make up a healthy animal diet. They wouldn't be teaching us anything that we weren't meant to pass on to pet parents to ensure their animals' health. There is no emphasis towards any specific food brand or type.


Yep, figures.. No wonder you are learning skewed and false information of animal nutrition, particularly dogs and cats, you are being taught by people who are paid by Hills 

As far as kibbles go I preferred TOTW and Diamond Extreme Athlete, we have our pups on Wellness Core Puppy atm and they are doing decent, will be switching them to TOTW once this tiny bag is done

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_Coleslaw007_ (10-09-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-08-2013),_sorraia_ (10-08-2013)

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## satomi325

I have a suggestion for those picky eaters. There are a few methods to help transition a dog to a different food.

1) Gradually

or 

2) Cold Turkey

Gradually: Slowly mix the new food into the old food. Feed 10% new food and 90% old food for a week. Slowly add more new food the next week to a 20% new food and 80% old food. Then the next week: 30% new food, 70% old food. The week after that: 40% new food, 60% old food, etc etc until there is only 100% new food. 

Cold Turkey: Just offer the new food. If the dog doesn't eat, then it doesn't eat. Save the food for the next meal and don't offer anything until then. Offer the food for the next meal. If the dog still doesn't eat, then take away the food and don't offer anything until then. By the second or third day, the dog will most likely eat the food.
We turned my boyfriend's GSD from the pickiest eater ever to a strong feeder this way. She hated the new kibble she was given. She never ate when offered food. But she learned quickly that if she doesn't eat when offered, she doesn't get any food at all. She went 2 and a half days before she finally ate. Now she doesn't really care what kind of kibble she is fed and just eats it normally without hesitation.


You can even squirt some fish oil or sprinkle a tiny bit of freeze dried raw into the food to make it more appetizing for the dog.




> Hasn't everyone seen Supersize Me



Oh god. *gag gag gag*  :projectile:

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_Coleslaw007_ (10-09-2013),_GoingPostal_ (10-08-2013),_kat_black181_ (10-08-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-08-2013)

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## anatess

> Wow...this is one of the reasons I don't post a lot on this forum because someone always wants to argue about and opinionated/from experience comment. Or argue about a question that doesn't have a 100% correct answer. I didn't comment to argue. There is no perfect dog food to feed your dog. You feed your dog whatever You think is best and whatever food your dog will eat. My dog Would Not eat high priced dog food. If feeding my dog the only food he would eat makes me a bad person than I guess I'm an awful person that would feed my future children fruit loops and chicken nuggets. I don't really appreciate being labeled like that and anyone else who fed their dog the things you listed as bad probably would feel the same way. But that's all I have to say about this subject...To the OP once again whatever you decide to feed your new corgi puppy I hope it carries your dog through a long happy life with you  keep us updated on him! Corgis are so cute! 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


I didn't comment to argue either.  I commented to educate.  Lots and lots of people don't bother reading up on these things so I offer what I learned from my research to you.  For free.  I'm not telling you you're a bad dog parent.  I'm merely telling you Pedigree is crap food, which, of course, you didn't know.

Of course there's a perfect food.  Even for humans.  We just can't afford it or have the society set up for it to be sustainable or accessible.  That doesn't mean that it stops being the perfect food.

Everything is a compromise on value, cost, accessibility, work, and physiology and other factors specific and unique to your dog.  Lots of high priced food is crap.  Lots of low priced food isn't.  If you're trying to go on a compromise on value and cost, it is silly to buy high priced crap food and pretty good idea to buy low cost nutritional food.  And it is not a good idea to spend money on crap food when you can spend that same amount on higher quality ones.

But, regardless of all that compromise, crap food will always remain crap food.  And that goes for Ramen Noodles.  But yeah, cold, freezing temps after a hurricane just blew through the house... you'll find me eating hot Ramen Noodles.  I do love the taste of them.

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## anatess

Oh, and about cost...

If you live close to Rodentpro, you can get their rabbits, quails, and chickens for your dog.  Whole prey.  The thing that makes Rodentpro unbelievably expensive is shipping.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-08-2013)

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## Shadera

Orijen kibble, and wellness CORE canned.

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## Mephibosheth1

Quick question from a veterinary professional....


looking through the past few pages (and I just scanned) I did see some posts saying that Science Diet was crap.

Do you have some hard evidence to support that assessment??

I may have missed it in the last 7 pages, but I am genuinely interested in any evidence you have have...

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## Mike41793

> Quick question from a veterinary professional....
> 
> 
> looking through the past few pages (and I just scanned) I did see some posts saying that Science Diet was crap.
> 
> Do you have some hard evidence to support that assessment??
> 
> I may have missed it in the last 7 pages, but I am genuinely interested in any evidence you have have...


Yea just read the ingredients list lol. I think nikki listed the first 10.

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_Anya_ (10-08-2013),_satomi325_ (10-08-2013),_Shadera_ (10-08-2013)

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## Anya

Yeeeah definitely agree with Science diet being crap. Granted, it's no more crap than any other corn-based food, but it comes with the pricetag of a grain-free food.

Corn = crap

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_satomi325_ (10-08-2013)

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## Mephibosheth1

ingredients don't make the dog food necessarily; it's ingredient quality.

I haven't been able to find any "real" science coroborating the "corn is the devil" myth either.  It may be subjectively unhealthy for people, but dogs do not have the same nutritional needs as people do...


Sorry if I sound set in my way; I just need more than anecdotal evidence to convince me


Don't telly me you're on the "corn is devil" wagon Anya...

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-08-2013),_Anya_ (10-08-2013)

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## Mike41793

> ingredients don't make the dog food necessarily; it's ingredient quality.
> 
> I haven't been able to find any "real" science coroborating the "corn is the devil" myth either.  It may be subjectively unhealthy for people, but dogs do not have the same nutritional needs as people do...
> 
> 
> Sorry if I sound set in my way; I just need more than anecdotal evidence to convince me


Nikki also mentioned it's been shown to cause tumors. Not sure if she mentioned it here or somewhere else.

EDIT: i'm pretty sure that may have been somewhere else actually, not here.

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_Mephibosheth1_ (10-08-2013)

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## Anya

> Don't telly me you're on the "corn is devil" wagon Anya...


Sure am. Do I still feed food with corn to my dogs? Yeah, I do. But I'm not going to deny it's not the best thing for them. 

Dogs are carnivores. Corn is non digestible filler. In most dog foods it's ingredient #1 and #2. To me it's clear. End of story. 

*shrugs* plus I've seen the difference between a cat and dog fed on traditional dogfood, and a cat and dog fed corn free. The difference was amazing. I am slightly ashamed that my dogs aren't corn-free, but that's just the way things are right now.

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_satomi325_ (10-08-2013)

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## Mephibosheth1

I just wonder where the scientific data is at, that's all.

Dogs are NOT little people, no matter how the media tries to portray them.  Dogs are also (contrary to popular belief) not carnivores.  The very makeup of their dental arcade proves that; they have molars and premolars in copious numbers.  Cats only have one set of molars, and they are vestigial at best.  This makes cats carnivores.

The presence of premolars shows that dogs were designed to be omnivores.  In the wild, dogs are more like bears actually; they will eat many berries and other plant-based items.

This difference is also seen in the severity of infection from dog vs cat bites.  Cats, being carnivores, are more likely to cause severe infection in their bites.  Dog bites, on the other hand, are less prone to these deadly septic infections.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-08-2013)

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## Anya

> Dogs are NOT little people, no matter how the media tries to portray them.  Dogs are also (contrary to popular belief) not carnivores.  The very makeup of their dental arcade proves that; they have molars and premolars in copious numbers.  Cats only have one set of molars, and they are vestigial at best.  This makes cats carnivores.
> 
> The presence of premolars shows that dogs were designed to be omnivores.  In the wild, dogs are more like bears actually; they will eat many berries and other plant-based items.


Touche.

I agree dogs are not little people, and behaviorally should not be treated as such. But your argument here only proves my point further- They are omnivorous mammals, like us. Corn is NOT good for us. I don't even have to good scientific evidence for that one. I know it's out there.

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## Mike41793

> I just wonder where the scientific data is at, that's all.
> 
> Dogs are NOT little people, no matter how the media tries to portray them.  Dogs are also (contrary to popular belief) not carnivores.  The very makeup of their dental arcade proves that; they have molars and premolars in copious numbers.  Cats only have one set of molars, and they are vestigial at best.  This makes cats carnivores.
> 
> The presence of premolars shows that dogs were designed to be omnivores.  In the wild, dogs are more like bears actually; they will eat many berries and other plant-based items.
> 
> This difference is also seen in the severity of infection from dog vs cat bites.  Cats, being carnivores, are more likely to cause severe infection in their bites.  Dog bites, on the other hand, are less prone to these deadly septic infections.


You're mistaken. Their molars are somewhat flat for grinding down meat and bones. But their premolars aren't flat at all. They aren't meant to grind vegetable matter. Their premolars are for slicing meat. 

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...c/dogpage.html

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_Anya_ (10-08-2013)

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## Pyrate81

My dog is currently on a specific Science Diet allergy food.  If I had my choice I'd feed him Nutro brand dog food.   :Very Happy:

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## Mephibosheth1

> Touche.
> 
> Corn is NOT good for us.




too MUCH corn is not good for us; this is where I don't get people.  Get a couple studies in *rats* that show corn is bad for *humans* and suddenly it must be bad for *dogs* too.  Do you know what they usually do in those kind of studies to the rats??  I had a friend who worked in the NIH; they force feed the rats the compounds they are analyzing and look at the effects then.  Or they feed them to genetically screwed up animals that CANT metabolize the oils and see what happens.  It's never on "real" human analogs...


I need to stop posting in this thread before I start really going off lol

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## Anya

Blah! Fine! you're smarter than us all, Meph. We bow down to your science-diet worshiping ways.

 :Razz: 

(You remind me waaaaaay too much of my dad. Still.)

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## Mike41793

> too MUCH corn is not good for us; this is where I don't get people.  Get a couple studies in *rats* that show corn is bad for *humans* and suddenly it must be bad for *dogs* too.  Do you know what they usually do in those kind of studies to the rats??  I had a friend who worked in the NIH; they force feed the rats the compounds they are analyzing and look at the effects then.  Or they feed them to genetically screwed up animals that CANT metabolize the oils and see what happens.  It's never on "real" human analogs...
> 
> 
> I need to stop posting in this thread before I start really going off lol


You keep saying "corn" but the ingredient in SD is "corn gluten meal"... Theres a difference. 

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-fo...ood-adult-dry/

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## Mephibosheth1

it has nothing to do with being more or less intelligent;


foolish ones put faith in every word that floats by: 

OH NO corn is bad!!!

OH NO microwaves are bad!!!


Give it time and the pet food industry will shift to a "Protein is the devil" stance, and then everyone will be against that.

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## Mike41793

> Blah! Fine! you're smarter than us all, Meph. We bow down to your science-diet worshiping ways.
> 
> 
> 
> (You remind me waaaaaay too much of my dad. Still.)


I've heard girls tend to marry men like their fathers. Aren't you and meph both in cali....?  :Very Happy:

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## Mike41793

> it has nothing to do with being more or less intelligent;
> 
> 
> foolish ones put faith in every word that floats by: 
> 
> OH NO corn is bad!!!
> 
> OH NO microwaves are bad!!!
> 
> ...


Corn gluten meal***

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## Mephibosheth1

> You keep saying "corn" but the ingredient in SD is "corn gluten meal"... Theres a difference. 
> 
> http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-fo...ood-adult-dry/



Which, if used properly is a good source of cysteine, a normal amino acid found in just about anything else.

I don't doubt that it can have adverse affects, but to say that just because a food has corn (corn gluten meal) in it it must be bad is horse hockey

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## Anya

since I didn't actually answer the thread question, lol...

I feed either Pedigree or Purina. Whichever happens to be cheapest at the time. (I'm a bad person.)

My favorite dogfood by far, for nutrition and value, is Tractor Supply's brand, Diamond Naturals. It has brewer's rice, so isn't grain free, but is corn free. And that makes me feel a whole lot better. Plus, I can always see the difference in our dogs. Their coats are healthier, they're healthier, everything's better.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-08-2013)

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## Mephibosheth1

> I've heard girls tend to marry men like their fathers. Aren't you and meph both in cali....?



shut up mike :Razz:  :Razz: 


And, to follow suit, I don't have a dog, so I don't feed it anything.

I do know that animals that are fed the PROPER AMOUNT of science diet for their body weight do better than those fed most other brands, but that I would normally feed stuff like Taste of the Wild any day.  It's just hard to make sure people feed the right amount,  which IMO is the main reason we have so many pet food problems.

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_Anya_ (10-08-2013)

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## Anya

It's not that is HAS corn gluten meal, it's that it's MOSTLY corn gluten meal. Everything in moderation- and that is not moderation. And animal that is PRIMARILY carnivorous should not be PRIMARILY feeding on CORN.

And yes, shut up, Mike. I wanna smack him right now, lol.

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## Anya

> shut up mike
> 
> 
> t I would normally feed stuff like Taste of the Wild any day.  It's just hard to make sure people feed the right amount,  which IMO is the main reason we have so many pet food problems.


Finally, something I can agree with, lol.

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## Mike41793

Soooo if you can find cysteine in other things why load your food with a by product?

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## Mike41793

> And yes, shut up, Mike. I wanna smack him right now, lol.


Maybe thats what he's into...? 

DO NOT ask your dad about that to compare!

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## Mike41793

> You're mistaken. Their molars are somewhat flat for grinding down meat and bones. But their premolars aren't flat at all. They aren't meant to grind vegetable matter. Their premolars are for slicing meat. 
> 
> http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...c/dogpage.html


This also shows dogs are in fact carnivores....

EDIT: (scientific evidence)

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## Mephibosheth1

true; however i'll use a simple analogy to convey my point.


In many LEGO sets, there are yellow bricks.  I have yellow bricks in my Star Wars ones and in my moon landing one.


If my dog required yellow bricks for nutrition, would it matter if I got them from the moon landing set or from the star wars sets??



That being said, I recognize that the good points in corn may be overshadowed by the bad.  However, what many people (most of the veterinary field included) do not see is that if they would look at the NUTRITIONAL value of a food over the ingredients, and feed accordingly, even Ol Roy could keep a dog healthy.

I just see/hear too many people putting their dogs on these weirdo health freak diets, and I see the dogs suffering for it later.  Oh they don't have a corn allergy, but they have almost every immune disease there is, improperly formed bones due to lack of minerals, lack of eyesight and hearing because of amino acid imbalance, etc.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-08-2013)

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## Mephibosheth1

> Soooo if you can find cysteine in other things why load your food with a by product?



"Because its sterile and I like the taste"


why waste something that can be recycled??

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## Mephibosheth1

> This also shows dogs are in fact carnivores....
> 
> EDIT: (scientific evidence)



going to google scholar pulls up articles from actual scholarly journals (granted I can't post direct links because they want me to buy the article) that refer to dogs as omnivores.

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## Mike41793

> true; however i'll use a simple analogy to convey my point.
> 
> 
> In many LEGO sets, there are yellow bricks.  I have yellow bricks in my Star Wars ones and in my moon landing one.
> 
> 
> If my dog required yellow bricks for nutrition, would it matter if I got them from the moon landing set or from the star wars sets??
> 
> 
> ...


The difference is that in the star wars set the yellow bricks aren't provided as by products, they're provided more naturally.

Yea I'm sure there are plenty of people that do that. You can't fix stupid, lol. There are places to seek out info on the proper ways to feed a raw diet. They aren't that hard to find, it's just that Petco doesnt have them lol

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## Mike41793

> going to google scholar pulls up articles from actual scholarly journals (granted I can't post direct links because they want me to buy the article) that refer to dogs as omnivores.


Are you saying you don't trust CSU's zoology program or vet school...? Because last time i checked they were one of the top ones in the nation.

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## Mephibosheth1

and really, many of our domestic breeds have been altered so much they don't want a raw diet

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## Borgy76

I feed my 2 male labs blue earth brand dog food, salmon/sweet potato blend.  They get veggies for treats,  and the occasional bacon grease drizzled over their food.  Sometimes a cheeseburger if we swing by mcdonalds after some time at the dog park.

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_Anya_ (10-08-2013)

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## Anya

> and really, many of our domestic breeds have been altered so much they don't want a raw diet


BS...lol. Only an animal USED to not having a raw diet doesn't want it.

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_Mike41793_ (10-08-2013)

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## Mike41793

> and really, many of our domestic breeds have been altered so much they don't want a raw diet


Not true. Nikki described simple methods to switch them over earlier in the thread.

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## LaFilleClochette

> and really, many of our domestic breeds have been altered so much they don't want a raw diet


how do you know that they don't "want" a raw diet... have any dogs told you it or... turned up their nose? 
I shouldnt get into this I know, but  that stood out to me. Many dogs will eat anything and everything (mine is living proof...minus green beans) others will eat nothing but kibble and some will eat "crap" kibble.... Untill we can read their minds, we won't know what they "want", but thanks to science and research, we have an idea to what they NEED

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_Anya_ (10-08-2013)

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## Anya

Poor Meph, just trying to play devil's advocate...getting all beaten up.  :Razz:

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## Mike41793

> Poor Meph, just trying to play devil's advocate...getting all beaten up.


You should make it up to him by letting him take you out to dinner!  :Very Happy:

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_Pyrate81_ (10-08-2013)

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## Anya

I think he got all grumpy-pants and took his toys and left...

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## Mike41793

> I think he got all grumpy-pants and took his toys and left...


He's plotting how to put the moves on you and setting up dinner reservations. Mephs a strategist.  :Good Job:

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## Anya

lol. I can assure you, he's not, ahaha. (disagreeing with the first, not the strategist part. Meph's TOTALLY a strategist.)

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## Mephibosheth1

There's no point in argueing with someone who doesn't want to change (on either side of things, myself included).

Trying to preach to people about the bible every day taught me that...

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_Anya_ (10-08-2013)

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## Anya

See, preaching the bible to people made me apprciate a good 'ol fashioned debate.  :Razz:

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## anatess

> There's no point in argueing with someone who doesn't want to change (on either side of things, myself included).
> 
> Trying to preach to people about the bible every day taught me that...


Corn is not bad food.  GMO corn is something I cannot trust. 

BUT, that said, dog's teeth show they are designed for prey, not plants.  Their teeth are completely different from a bear's (also of the order carnivora but sub-family ursidae instead of canidae).

Dog's digestive system is simpler and shorter than a bear's.  But it is longer than a cat's.  A cat is an obligate carnivore - hah, we feed kitty kibbles.

Okay, that said... back to corn.  A dog cannot process raw corn.  It's just not digestible for them.  It goes one end and right out the other without much processing - much like grass that the dog eats come out of their poop still grass.  But that's not what's in dog food.  Dog food takes corn, grinds it into meal powder and cooks it.  Highly digestible.  Okay.

But, what does that do?  First of all, dog's physiology is designed to get its main source of energy and body functions through proteins.  It doesn't need carbs because all it gets out of carbs is energy which they get out of proteins.  Now, a dog is different from a bear in the number of carb's processing enzymes.  Dogs have much less.  They have a little more than a cat but they have very little of it.  So, dog physiology is not efficient at processing carbs to convert to energy but they do have a little bit of it for when that's the only opportunity available.  Dogs are opportunistic feeders.  Okay, now back to corn.  Corn has high protein but the proteins in corn has a lower biological value than muscle meat.  With egg at 100 biological value, muscle meat is at 92, corn is at 54.  That, in itself, shows meat proteins are better than corn protein in a dog that has a simpler/shorter digestive tract.  But the danger lies in the powdered/cooked form of corn's glycemic index.  Corn meal has a high glycemic index.  Feeding a lot of this to a dog that has a much lower level of carbs processing enzymes will quickly overload those enzymes putting stress on the pancreas.  On the other hand, muscle meat has a glycemic index and carb content of 0.

So, why corn?  Because it bumps up the protein rating on the dog food label and it is cheap.

Scientific evidence?  Encyclopedia and logical interpolation.  Take it for what it is worth.

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_Anya_ (10-08-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-09-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-09-2013),_satomi325_ (10-08-2013),sho220 (10-09-2013)

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## GoingPostal

Raw, I wouldn't go back to kibble at this point, raw is the only thing that's kept my male's allergies under control.  Plus their coats are softer, shinier, less poop and they love it so a little hassle and time to make their meals is ok with me.  Pre raw was feeding Diamond Naturals and TOTW, not a big fan of Diamond's recalls and problems but they are still miles above most grocery store fare and we've convinced many friends and family off Science Diet to one of those foods, price is the same or less but difference in the pets is pretty clear.  Raw costs me considerably less as well but I also feed a lot of free wild game, buy whole animals to butcher ourselves and buy in bulk whenever possible.  Also it's a great way to freak out your neighbors.

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_anatess_ (10-08-2013),_Anya_ (10-08-2013),_satomi325_ (10-08-2013)

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## I-KandyReptiles

My girl gets acana. If I cook meat though, she will get some.

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_Anya_ (10-08-2013)

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## sorraia

Note: I'm snipping quotes to the relevant parts I'm replying to, so as to keep this post as uncluttered as possible.




> I just wonder where the scientific data is at, that's all.
> 
> Dogs are NOT little people, no matter how the media tries to portray them. Dogs are also (contrary to popular belief) not carnivores. The very makeup of their dental arcade proves that; they have molars and premolars in copious numbers.  Cats only have one set of molars, and they are vestigial at best. This makes cats carnivores.
> 
> The presence of premolars shows that dogs were designed to be omnivores. In the wild, dogs are more like bears actually; they will eat many berries and other plant-based items.
> 
> This difference is also seen in the severity of infection from dog vs cat bites. Cats, being carnivores, are more likely to cause severe infection in their bites. Dog bites, on the other hand, are less prone to these deadly septic infections.


There's more to the herbivore/omnivore/carnivore diet than just teeth. You need to look at the whole package. Teeth are just the beginning of the whole digestive process. There's a whole organ system that go along with them, and for each type of feeder there are variations in the digestive system to deal with the ideal diet for that type of feeder. 

Dogs are carnivores. They can be opportunistically omnivorous, but that does not make them true omnivores. They do not have grinding teeth like an herbivore or true omnivore, their teeth are designed for chopping. A dog cannot digest the course plant matter that a true omnivore can. As an opportunistic carnivore, dogs can consume some plant matter. Looking at wild canines closely related to dogs (i.e. wolves, coyotes), those plants are mainly limited to simple, easy to digest parts such as berries and fruits. Those wild canines aren't munching on leaves and grasses (or if they are those leaves and grasses are coming out undigested, I'll collect some scat for you next time I'm in the field if you want proof), they typically aren't digging up roots and tubers, they aren't shredding bark off the trees, all things that omnivores and herbivores can and will do. 

So what about a dog that makes it a carnivore? Their whole digestive system. They lack true grinding teeth. They have a large stomach designed to consume as much food as possible, since true carnivores are typically hunters and need to consume large amounts in one meal, because they may have to wait days for their next meal. Dogs also produce a highly acidic stomach acid - something common in true carnivores, but not so much in herbivores and omnivores. Dogs lack a caecum, appendix, chambered stomach, or other digestive features that make it possible to digest plant matter. These organs found in ominvores and herbivores are designed specifically for digesting tough plant material. Chambered stomachs (most often found in omnivores, off the top of my head I can't think of a true omnivore with a chambered stomach, but since I don't know everything I'm not going to say they don't exist right off the bat!) contain microbes that help the animal digest tough plant material. These chambered stomachs also allow the animal the opportunity to digest and "redigest" its meal multiple times in order to get as much nutrients as possible out of it. The caecum (and our vestigial appendix, although some studies actually show the appendix may have some purpose even now) also contains microbes that help digest tough plant material, and helps to absorb the last bit of nutrition from plant material. Dogs also do not (normally) practice copraphagy, as many herbivores and some omnivores do. Copraphagy is another "method" of achieving maximal nutrition from tough plant material, by reingesting and redigesting the meal after it has passed through the digestive system once. A dog's digestive system isn't quite as long as that of a true omnivore, and certainly not nearly as long as that of a true herbivore. 

If you want to use the phrases loosely, yes, dogs are omnivores. However, biologically it is not so simple. Within the realm of biology, there are far more divisions than simply herbivore, omnivore, or carnivore. And there are more intricacies that simply what an animal "can" eat that determines how it should be grouped. As stated above, dogs are carnivores but opportunistically omnivore. This ability to eat SOME plant matter does not make them a true omnivore in the sense that a human is. To give another example of how these categories are actually more complicated than they seem... Norway rats, those we feed to our pythons, are classified as granivores, which technically would mean they are herbivores, since grains and seeds are in fact plant material. However we all know that's not the case, they are in fact omnivores despite their grouping into granivores. 




> true; however i'll use a simple analogy to convey my point.
> 
> 
> In many LEGO sets, there are yellow bricks. I have yellow bricks in my Star Wars ones and in my moon landing one.
> 
> 
> If my dog required yellow bricks for nutrition, would it matter if I got them from the moon landing set or from the star wars sets?


It does matter when it comes to nutrition. Not all nutrients are equally bio-available. Bioavailability is what determines how much of a nutrient is actually utilized by the organism consuming it. A particular food may contain 80% of nutrient A, but if that nutrient is only 20% bioavailable, the animal eating that food is really only going to be able to utilize 1/5th of that 80%. When a nutrient is tied up into a highly undigestible food, then that nutrient essentially has a low bioavailability. This is true across all species and all feeding groups. Cellulose and lignin contain some vital nutrients, but those nutrients are largely unavailable to most organisms because of the digestibility of cellulose and lignin. 

For dogs, their carnivorous classification means the most bioavailable nutrients will come from animal sources. While dogs can opportunistically feed on some plant material, the nutrients found in plants are less bioavailable to a dog than those found in animal sources. Also many plants (such as leaves, grasses, stems, bark, etc) can't even be digested by the dog and come out very much the same way they went in. If a food isn't even being digested, then the dog certainly isn't getting any nutrition from that food. 





> That being said, I recognize that the good points in corn may be overshadowed by the bad. However, what many people (most of the veterinary field included) do not see is that if they would look at the NUTRITIONAL value of a food over the ingredients, and feed accordingly, even Ol Roy could keep a dog healthy.
> 
> I just see/hear too many people putting their dogs on these weirdo health freak diets, and I see the dogs suffering for it later. Oh they don't have a corn allergy, but they have almost every immune disease there is, improperly formed bones due to lack of minerals, lack of eyesight and hearing because of amino acid imbalance, etc.


This is assume the nutritional value of a manufactured kibble (or even canned) diet has high bioavailability. If those nutrients are not highly bioavailable to the dog, the dog will not be getting full benefit from that food.

There's also another problem with manufactured dog feeds that I haven't yet seen mentioned (or if it has been I've missed it)... We are also assuming scientists know everything there is to know about not only nutrition in general, but also the nutritional requirements of the dog (and not just dogs in general, but all life stages, activity levels, and health levels) and how to provide full nutrition using largely synthetic sources (and let's face it, many of the nutrients in manufactured dog food ARE synthetic because many natural nutrients are destroyed in the cooking process to make kibble in the first place). Many people put full faith in this system and believe it. Personally I don't, and I say that not only as someone who has done a lot of research on my own, but also as someone who is a scientist by trade and training. Just look back at history. At one time carbohydrates, fats, and proteins were the only nutrients known, and scientists thought they knew all there was about nutrition. Turns out they were wrong... then they discovered minerals and vitamins. So then they though they knew it all. Oh wait, they were still wrong. There's also omega-fatty acids. So then they must have known it all. Um, not quite. Antioxidants, micronutrients (including those required in such small amounts they may be almost imperceivable), enzymes, and goodness knows what else. There are constantly new studies on nutrition being done, and some of these studies show we haven't even come close to knowing it all. If we did, people wouldn't even need to eat food, we'd be able to encapsulate our daily required nutrients into a single pill, and be set for the day. Why waste time shopping, cooking, and eating food when we can just take a pill with full nutritional value? Simple answer is because we DON'T know that much yet. Look at how often nutritional studies change (or better yet, how they change depending on who is funding them!)... meat is good, meat is bad, eggs are good, eggs are bad, caffeine is bad, caffeine isn't really that bad, alcohol is bad, but red wine is good, chocolate is bad, but some dark chocolate is good, soy prevents breast cancer, but it also causes breast cancer, etc etc etc etc on and on into infinity. If we scientists really knew all that we proclaim to know... there wouldn't be so much contradiction and doubt. 

Now verging from science and research and jumping into the realm of personal opinion... MY personal opinion is that nutrition is best achieved from as natural sources as possible, preferably whole, minimally processed foods. No one is perfect, so none of us are going to eat a perfect diet, nor feed a perfect diet for our pets. The best we can do is decide what we believe to be the best for ourselves and our animals. If we choose to put our faith into imperfect scientists and potentially-corrupt nutritional studies, then so be it, that's our individual choice. But some of us do a little extra research and decide we don't put that much faith into scientists. Instead we choose to feed natural diets that resemble what an animal would actually eat if it were fending for itself in a wild or at least semi-wild state. As long as there's enough personal research to back that choice, I wouldn't call that a "freak diet". It is certainly no more a "freak diet" than choosing to feed kibble, especially if you choose kibble the way most people do, based on commercials and what the pet food company is claiming. There certainly is a WRONG way to feed a whole, minimally processed diet, just as there is a WRONG way to feed a processed manufactured diet. Those animals who were fed the wrong way are the ones who end up suffering for it. Unfortunately those are the ones who stick out in memory because those are the ones you see. If an animal is fed a raw diet and doing very well with no health problems, why would a veterinary be seeing that animal very often, except maybe for a routine check up?




> and really, many of our domestic breeds have been altered so much they don't want a raw diet


That's like saying people have been altered so much they don't want to eat fruits and vegetables any more.  :Razz:

----------

_Coleslaw007_ (10-09-2013),_Kinra_ (10-09-2013),_LaFilleClochette_ (10-09-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-09-2013),_MootWorm_ (10-09-2013),_satomi325_ (10-09-2013),sho220 (10-09-2013)

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## Anya

*Claps*

Seriously, that was an awesome write-up. I agree wholeheartedly.

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## Mephibosheth1

I do point out with the above that, as you mentioned, there is still a lot we do not know about nutrition.  Myself included.  The facts are presented beautifully in your write up; I would argue about the omnivore classification, as we (who are omnivores) also lack a chambered stomach and an enlarged cecum (our cecum is actually our appendix).  But I won't, as I respect the information as coming from someone who is knowledgeable in the field.

I am leaving the discussion until I have something more meaningful to add; have fun!!

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_Anya_ (10-09-2013)

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## Coleslaw007

Sorraia, I think I love you!

My dog gets prey-model raw. Prior to that I was feeding a mix of raw and pre-made raw, Nature's Variety Instinct frozen raw diet. Waaaay back when we were doing kibble I fed a mix of Acana and raw. You should be careful if you mix raw and kibble to feed them separately, as they digest very differently. Will it kill them not to? No, but it's easier on their digestive system. I personally did kibble in the morning and some raw chicken at night as the bones help clean their teeth.

I'd also like to show everyone this picture. When we adopted our dog, the humane society gave us a bag of Science Diet since that's what they fed. Does this LOOK healthy?? That was from a couple hours of sitting around, it left a grease puddle under the bag. I threw it away and switched him cold turkey, screw that.


Sent from microwave using Tapatalk 2

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-09-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-09-2013)

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## Aztec4mia

Damn you raw feeders and your shiny coat dogs, lol, I need to find a decent supplier so I can get my pups off this kibble already.

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_bad-one_ (10-09-2013),_satomi325_ (10-09-2013)

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## sho220

> Sent from microwave using Tapatalk 2


I was not aware that Five Guys started selling dog food.  :Confused:

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_Coleslaw007_ (10-09-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-09-2013)

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## bad-one

I've fed both Wellness and Blue to our dogs. Both are great foods and that keep our bullies looking great but awful expensive for four dogs lol (although blue wilderness has given my brindle pup the runs, must be the high protein content)

We are now switching to Kirkland lamb recipe for our pups. I've seen some mixed reviews due to recalls but I have some fellow groomer/trainer friends who swear by it. Since I've started mixing it 50/50 with Bear's meals his diarrhea is going away ( no more stinky bully farts!). For being almost a 1/4 of the price of high end brands it is still miles above many foods!

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-09-2013)

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## Kinra

> Damn you raw feeders and your shiny coat dogs, lol, I need to find a decent supplier so I can get my pups off this kibble already.


I completely agree, I've been considering a raw diet for a while and just have gotten around to doing enough research to feel comfortable preparing meals and finding a supplier.

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## Skiploder

Did raw for a while and never saw a noticeable difference.  The whole food allergy thing is blown out of proportion - a good friend is actually a dog allergy specialist and he has told us that food items represent a very low percentage of canine allergies.

Ouir old staffy bull did fine on kibble (16.5 years when he died).  Before that our tibetan mastiff did well on kibble (14 years).

Our current dogs do fine on grain free kibble.  Again, did the raw thing, did it for a while and never noticed good or bad changes.

My take is this:  dogs are not wolves, they are dogs.  Dogs are carnivores, they are pack animals and they are canids - but they are not wolves.  Recent genome-wide analyses of dogs and wolves revealed that dogs have more copies of a gene that allows dogs to produce amylase, which is used in the digestion of starches. Wolves have only two copies, domestic dogs have anywhere from four to thirty.

I am not against feeding raw - what I am against is people who feed raw and adopt superior attitudes because they do it.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-09-2013),_Anya_ (10-09-2013),_bad-one_ (10-15-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-09-2013),_cristacake_ (04-19-2016),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-09-2013),_sorraia_ (10-09-2013)

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## anatess

> Did raw for a while and never saw a noticeable difference.  The whole food allergy thing is blown out of proportion - a good friend is actually a dog allergy specialist and he has told us that food items represent a very low percentage of canine allergies.
> 
> Ouir old staffy bull did fine on kibble (16.5 years when he died).  Before that our tibetan mastiff did well on kibble (14 years).
> 
> Our current dogs do fine on grain free kibble.  Again, did the raw thing, did it for a while and never noticed good or bad changes.
> 
> My take is this:  dogs are not wolves, they are dogs.  Dogs are carnivores, they are pack animals and they are canids - but they are not wolves.  Recent genome-wide analyses of dogs and wolves revealed that dogs have more copies of a gene that allows dogs to produce amylase, which is used in the digestion of starches. Wolves have only two copies, domestic dogs have anywhere from four to thirty.
> 
> I am not against feeding raw - what I am against is people who feed raw and adopt superior attitudes because they do it.


On that amylase thing - the presence of more genes in the dog that produces amylase does not mean the dogs are efficient carb consumers.  It just means they are better than wolves at it.

Yes, environmental allergies are a lot more common than food allergies.  But I have 2 English Bulldogs.  Food allergies are very prominent in English Bulldogs as well as environmental allergies.  Yeast blooms are also common.  Tons of EB owners feed kibble.  But, in the EB group I belong to, you will see quite clearly how EBs on low quality kibble suffer.  But even high quality kibble doesn't just work.  You have to jump around different kibble formulations to find one that would work for the dog.  I just got tired of that crap so I went all raw.

Now, this is very anecdotal, but one of my EBs is allergic to chicken.  Or so I thought.  We went through rounds of kibble formulations on an elimination process to find one that works for him and every single kibble we tried that had chicken in it fails.  Oh, and about that grain-free thing... that doesn't quite work out either.  I thought, grain-free=low carb.  Not so.  Potatoes are high carbs too.  What we did find is low protein = high carb, so we went with formula that has carbs lower than 45% (they don't list that in the bag, by the way - you have to figure it out!).  Carbs on my dogs = yeast infection.  We finally found Earthborn Holistics Primitive Natural that worked until Earthborn changed the formulation.  

So, we went raw.  I figured, if I am competent enough to feed my kids, I am competent enough to feed my dogs.  My kids go to a holistic pediatrician and holistic pediatricians are very particular about nutrition so I already got quite a good grasp of human nutrition.  So I fed my EB raw chicken to try it out and he was just completely fine with it.  That threw me off my rocker, I tell ya.

Since I rescued these EBs, I've spent too much money on vet bills.  Since I put them on raw, I've only had to take them for their physicals.  That's it.

I don't have a superior attitude with raw.  It is not easy to feed dogs raw.  Lots of research has to be put in it and you have to really know your dog very very well because you have to tweak the diet depending on your dog's response to it.  So you also have to read and read and read all about nutrition.

But what having EBs did teach me... I feel so much better about my decision to take our kids to a holistic pediatrician (yes, she is an MD) even if she did not take health insurance.  My sister who is a nurse accused me of child abuse when I did that because she did not prescribe antibiotics for my kid's ear infection.  Instead she gave me willow/garlic ear drops and a meal plan!

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_sorraia_ (10-09-2013)

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## sorraia

> I do point out with the above that, as you mentioned, there is still a lot we do not know about nutrition.  Myself included.  The facts are presented beautifully in your write up; I would argue about the omnivore classification, as we (who are omnivores) also lack a chambered stomach and an enlarged cecum (our cecum is actually our appendix).  But I won't, as I respect the information as coming from someone who is knowledgeable in the field.
> 
> I am leaving the discussion until I have something more meaningful to add; have fun!!


Note: I'm not arguing... I just love a good discussion, and this is one subject I find fascinating.  :Wink: 

Yes we don't have a chambered stomach (I'm not actually aware of any omnivores that do), and our caecum is not enlarged as it is in say... a rat, but there are other differences to look at. Our stomach isn't as large as a carnivore or even some other omnivores... but in dogs it is larger and capable of holding large meals. To meet metabolic needs, we are best suited for eating small meals throughout the day (similar to an herbivore who must also eat often, but different in that herbivores tend to eat on a fairly constant basis). But this differs from a carnivore (and dogs) in that a carnivore can get away with eating one large meal and subsisting off that for a few days. Our entire digestive system is a little longer than that of a dog (proportionately speaking), because plant matter (which as omnivores we eat more of than carnivores) takes longer to digest. We've got a few more digestive enzymes than a dog that helps us to digest plant matter. I'd have to look it up to be sure, but we might possibly even have more gut microbes than a dog too (which also help us to digest plant material). 

Again, dogs aren't strict, obligate carnivores as felines are. But they aren't truly omnivorous either, like bears, raccoons, pigs, or humans. Just for curiosities sake, I pulled up pictures of skulls just to compare dentition (although again, dentition is only one small piece of the overall picture), unfortunately having to rely on the Internet since all of my skulls are packed away except for the cat skull sitting on my desk... There are striking differences between different species and eating habits. These differences in dentition show not only the differences between carnivores, omnivores, and herbivores, but also the differences in specific fashions in eating. Cats have greatly reduced molars, and very sharp premolars, almost no flat surfaces at all. Dogs also have many sharp points, but their molars are a bit larger than that of a cat's, and their premolars do have some flatter (though not truly flat) surfaces. This shows the differences in eating habits: Cats tend to eat more meat and organ, and swallow bones almost whole, they shear and shred their food, they don't grind it. Dogs on the other hand eat meat and organ, but they'll also chew on larger bones to pull off the last bits of meat. They'll eat some plant matter. They don't grind food either, but they crush as well as shear and shred. Bone chewing uses premolars, not canines and incisors (any raw feeder that offers bone will see this, it's kind of fascinating to watch really). Bear on the other hand... they have larger and flatter molars. Even polar bears (who are pretty much purely carnivorous) have some flatter surfaces on their molars. This shows an ability to actually grind food, not just crush, shear, and shred. And actually, pigs and bears aren't doing nearly as much shredding and shearing as a dog or cat. Same thing seen in the dentition of a pig, and even a raccoon (although to a lesser extent in a raccoon... they tend to be a little more carnivorous, and when they do eat plant matter they are generally consuming softer plant parts, such as fruits). 

Now looking at different canine skulls, you see differences too. Wolves are more carnivorous than coyotes, where a dog's dietary habits tend more toward that of a coyote. Foxes on the other hand, are more omnivorous than any of those. When you examine the dentition of wolves, coyotes, dogs, and foxes, dogs and coyotes are most similar to each other, while also resembling wolves, while foxes are the least similar. Proportionately speaking, the molars on a fox are actually a little bit larger than that on a dog (especially the last molar), and appear just a little bit flatter. 

It's just all very interesting. Posting this for the sake of anyone interested.  :Smile: 

Canine skulls: 
http://www.sdnhm.org/archive/researc.../nwcanids.html
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Redfox/redfox.htm
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Greenland/greenland.htm

Bear skulls:
http://www.grizzlybay.org/LearnMore/...ybearteeth.htm
http://www.skullsunlimited.com/recor...nt.php?id=3452

Pig skulls:
http://anthropology.net/2007/09/04/a...ory/pig-skull/
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Pig/pigdom.htm

Raccoon skulls:
http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-pho...coon-skull.php
http://cyborgsuzystock.deviantart.co...skull-35331866

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_Anya_ (10-09-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-09-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-09-2013),_satomi325_ (10-09-2013)

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## anatess

I don't have cats as I'm allergic to them.  But, I'm always wondering how cats survive off kibble?

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-09-2013)

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## Monty the BP

> Hello fellow dog owners! As the time for bringing home my puppy draws near I've been researching what food to feed my corgi puppy. 
> 
> What do you feed?
> 
> Surely I'm not the only one who is wanting to feed the highest quality food possible. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


OK I hope you have found your answer among the 12 pages LOL

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-09-2013),_sorraia_ (10-09-2013)

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## sorraia

> I don't have a superior attitude with raw.  It is not easy to feed dogs raw.  Lots of research has to be put in it and you have to really know your dog very very well because you have to tweak the diet depending on your dog's response to it.  So you also have to read and read and read all about nutrition.


This a thousand and a million times more. 

My older dog is a pointer/am staff mix. She's very high energy (as is typical of those breeds!), and while on kibble (even high quality kibble using real meat instead of by-products and meals) she did alright, but she wasn't exactly thriving. She smelled, that yeasty smell (though never actually diagnosed with a yeast infection). She had bad gas all the time. Her coat wasn't bad, but it wasn't great either. She had dandruff, and it was hard to keep weight on her (even when feeding double or more than what she is supposed to be getting, according the directions on the kibble bag!). I tried different foods (don't remember all the brands, this was years ago). She did better on canned, but that was just too expensive. My cats were already on raw, so I decided to switch her. Took a little bit of tweaking to find exactly what works for her... but now that I know, she's in great shape! No more yeasty smell, no more dandruff, coat and skin in great condition, no more gas (unless she gets fattier meats... like lamb, and even pork, too much beef doesn't agree with her either), and she holds her weight well now (no more bones sticking out every where and people accusing me of starving her!). I do have to feed her more in winter than in summer, because she's very lean and doesn't have an undercoat to keep her warm (thus she ends up burning more calories in winter to keep warm, even in our mild So Cal winters!), but that's no big deal. And like I already mentioned, there are some meats I can't give her (though organs from those same animals seem to be alright) or have to limit. The bulk of her diet is composed of poultry. It took a lot of research, and it took some trial and error to find out what works, but she's doing great. She's approaching 7 years old, and her only health problem is arthritis (vet says she has a genetic predisposition for it, nothing to do with diet or lifestyle). Her only supplement is glucosamine for the arthritis, and you wouldn't even know she has arthritis (this poor arthritic dog runs and leaps like a puppy). Otherwise... great condition! She gets a yearly physical, with bloodwork, and every time she gets rave reviews about what great condition she's in.

The true "miracle" story is with my cats. My younger female (who loved switching to raw) didn't really show any difference in health between her manufactured diet and raw (except her breath doesn't smell as bad on raw). My male cat (who was the hardest to switch, even though he had to fend for himself for a period of his life!) showed improvement in overall condition... primarily his coat when from dull, discolored, and harsh, to soft, luxurious, and vibrant (sounds like a shampoo commercial!). My senior cat at the time (RIP) was the one who showed the most improvement. She was about 11 or 12 years old at the time I switched (and ironically the easiest of the three, despite having lived on kibble her entire life!), and looked at least 3 or 4 years older than she really was. She had cataracts, was arthritic, stopped jumping years ago, had a harsh brittle coat, was overweight, and though she seemed happy enough, she didn't have any pep in her walk. Switched her over and within the first 6 months she lost weight (to an ideal weight), her coat regained its condition, her cataracts cleared (still there, but not as obvious as before), and her arthritis improved. There was one day in particular when I KNEW this was the right diet for her: She JUMPED 3 feet from the bed to the window sill!!! For a cat who had not jumped for years, and pulled herself up on to the bed instead of jumping, that was amazing! The vets and vet techs could no longer guess her age. One time I took her in for a routine check-up, and asked the technician how old she though this cat was. Technician said she couldn't be over 12 years old, and nearly fell to the floor when I said this cat was actually 16 years old. She lived 6, almost 7, years on raw before she had to be put to sleep. The couple of years of her life she experienced renal failure, but never showed the classic symptoms of it (vomiting, loss of appetite, weight loss, etc). The only way we even knew she had renal failure was because the bloodwork showed it. When that happened, I did some more research, altered her diet a bit, and she lived happily until it was finally her time to go. 

Definitely not an easy diet. I DO think it is the best, and most appropriate diet for dogs and cats (in fact, I think whole food, minimally processed, is the best and most appropriate diet for ANY animal, actual food choices depending on the species, of course). I don't see that as a superior attitude. It's an opinion, one I like to believe is based on fact, but others are free to disagree. I keep a few cans of canned food on hand for emergencies (if the big earthquake hits and I lose power, or another disaster such as wildfire forces me to evacuate, I'm not going to be able to provide a raw diet, at least not easily), either using it or donating it before it expires, and purchasing more to replace it. If I need to go out of town and get a house sitter, I will provide canned food for their convenience. But otherwise, my animals are on raw. That's the way I prefer it, and that's the way my animals are thriving.

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_GoingPostal_ (10-09-2013)

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## sorraia

> I don't have cats as I'm allergic to them.  But, I'm always wondering how cats survive off kibble?


Cats survive on kibble, some well into old age, but not nearly as well as they survive on canned or raw. Based on the research I've done (and the research I've seen others do), if cats are going to be fed a manufactured diet, it should be canned not raw. That canned diet should also be meat and organ, not grains, not starches, and no plant material (which is very  hard to find... apparently cats in the wild are eating blueberries, potatoes, and carrots!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  ). A raw diet is, in my honest opinion, the best diet for a cat, hands down. That of course assuming it is a PROPER raw diet. (As we all know... hamburger isn't going to cut it!)

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## satomi325

Darn! Sorraia beat me to it! I was going to say and post similar pictures of the same animals. Good job!:thumbup:

I like certain kibbles and raw. I feed a mix of commercial raw and kibble to my dogs, but I personally think raw is the 'best'. If someone is going to feed kibble, I always suggest the ones I listed on the first page. Yes there are some fruit and vegetables found in some of them, but they are in very little quantities. Not to mention they lack potatoes, grains, and corn fillers and the bulk of those diets are meat and meat proteins. I am against feeding low quality kibble that has more fillers than meat to where it would be more appropriate for a rodent diet than a dog..... (I.E. science diet where it had a single meat source and everything else being rice, grains, corn, etc)




> I don't have cats as I'm allergic to them.  But, I'm always wondering how cats survive off kibble?


There is enough meat proteins to survive. However, its still not very good for them since they're obligate carnivores.

Depending on the type of kibble. When fed an average or low quality kibble many do develop insulin issues and diabetes. Grain, corn, and other plant material used as binders in the kibble are metabolized as sugars. They get too much sugar and it actually compromises the pancreas into producing excess insulin. If you have too much insulin, the blood  glucose levels go down.:cens0r: This is when hypoglycemia occurs.

 This is why Insulinoma is one of the most common ailments in domesticated ferrets and diabetes in cats. Ferrets are very similar to cats where they are both obligate carnivores. Ferrets can still get Insulinoma even when fed a quality kibble. My current ferrets are on raw, but I've seen what kibble can do to ferrets first hand. The violent seizures they experience from low blood sugar drops are not a pleasant sight. Its a rather sad helpless feeling watching a pet go through a fit.

When switched to raw, my ferrets transformed. It was crazy! I didn't expect them to change that much,  but they did. Less odor, smaller poo, ate less due to getting more viable nutrients in smaller amounts or raw compared to kibble where they basically had to eat constantly to get a similar amount of nutrition. They went from having rough brittle coats to beautiful shiny and silky coats. They have more energy. More muscle mass and less fat. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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_Coleslaw007_ (10-09-2013),_GoingPostal_ (10-09-2013),_sorraia_ (10-09-2013)

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## Cupid

I feed my puppy Wellness for puppies. I do plan on switching him over to raw when I get my own place and my own freezer! (so early next year  :Razz:  )

A lot to learn in this thread!

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## anatess

About digestibility of meat...

My dog is a 50-lb English Bulldog.  


He gets about 1.5lbs of prey a day and eats once a day - random times because I don't follow a routine feeding schedule (on purpose).  He poops once a day, sometimes once every 2 days.  And this is the size of his poop:



That poop tells me he ate beef hearts for his last meal.  The pork and fish and rabbit and chicken are lighter color.  If he's getting too much bone it turns white so I let off the bone.  If it turns black he had too much organs.  The poop dries up and crumbles if you leave it (I tested it so I let it stay for 3 days before I couldn't stand it anymore).  It's perfect for if you use one of those doggy dooley things.  I use a home-made version of it.  It doesn't stink as much as kibble poop either.

Yeah yeah... I derailed the thread from food to poop.  LOL.

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_Anya_ (10-18-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-17-2013),_satomi325_ (10-17-2013)

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## catzeye21138

I see you guys are talking about raw diets, have any of you heard about Stella & Chewy's *raw* frozen and freeze dried products? I like the freeze dried because you can reconstitute it with water, and it doesn't expand. A local vet looked at it under his microscope and couldn't find any dangerous stuff in it. (I'm great with sciency words, aren't I?)

Also to contribute to the thread I feed Nutri-Source grain free heartland select (buffalo).

Here's some food stats for their chicken formula: http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nu...cts/gf_chicken

I like it because it has pro and pre-biotics for digestion, omega 3 and 6 fatty acids, and added glucosamine. Plus I get a free 15lb bag once a month as a perk for where I work.

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## Expensive hobby

I'm sure there are tons of good ways to feed your dog, but I've gotta say with the TOTW, the ingredient list makes me hungry. I mean the stuff is made with purified water, and roasted quail, pheasant, duck etc.

The only veggies I think are some form of Chelated tomatoes? Or something along those lines...


Sent From an Enclosure

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## satomi325

> I see you guys are talking about raw diets, have any of you heard about Stella & Chewy's *raw* frozen and freeze dried products? I like the freeze dried because you can reconstitute it with water, and it doesn't expand. A local vet looked at it under his microscope and couldn't find any dangerous stuff in it.


My dogs get the freeze dried Stella & Chewys too. They go nuts for it.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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## Jackie

Science diet is a clinically proven good dog food. Don't buy in to blue buffalos gimmicks. Their advertisement for hollistic means nothing at all. They are a mid grade food charging you a lot of money. Stick with your purina ones or eukanubas before any food that advertises natural or hollistic. I swear by science diet, but all dogs are different! (Just please stay away from raw diets!)

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_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013)

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## Jackie

> This also shows dogs are in fact carnivores....
> 
> EDIT: (scientific evidence)


Dogs are NOT carnivores.

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_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013)

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## satomi325

..........................................................
*sigh* m(___)m


On another note. Some shameless advertisement for the old Raw/Whole Prey Diet Appreciation Thread. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...aphic-warning*

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_anatess_ (10-18-2013),_MootWorm_ (10-18-2013)

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## loud

Late to the party, but I feed my dog Orijen Adult. We would absolutely feed raw but unfortunately lack the storage space for it. He does well on Orijen, though.




> On another note. Some shameless advertisement for the old Raw/Whole Prey Diet Appreciation Thread. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?194468-Raw-Whole-Prey-Diet-Appreciation-Thread!-*graphic-warning*


Great thread, loved the pictures!! Those are some of the best looking ferrets I've seen, and it looks like they're enjoying themselves  :Smile:

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_satomi325_ (10-18-2013)

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## Mike41793

> Dogs are NOT carnivores.


Did you read the link or just pull this answer out of your ass like where you pulled your first response from?

Notice how purina, eukanuba and nothing hills are on the Best Dog Food list? 
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-d...dry-dog-foods/

You can feed your dog whatever you want, im not trying to tell you what to feed. But do NOT tell other people blue buffalo is no good and raw diets are bad. That just makes you look like a fool.

Seriously did you even read the thread? Look at pookies dogs who are all on raw diets. I've seen and played with them. They are by far some of the most solid and healthy looking dogs i've ever met. Very muscular and lean, soft smooth coat, and healthy looking teeth. So yea, why should she stop feeding raw? What type of kibbles do wolves eat?

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## Kodieh

> Did you read the link or just pull this answer out of your ass like where you pulled your first response from?


Or how much of it are they regurgitating from someone else without doing their own research. 

Not everyone on the internet is right, and some vets are very bad and say whatever comes to mind. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

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## anatess

GUYS!!!  SCIENCE DIET IS GOING TO MAKE KIBBLES FOR SNAKES!!!  DIDN'T YOU KNOW???

wait... I was having a nightmare...  I'm awake now.  Carry on.

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_Anya_ (10-18-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-18-2013),Crazymonkee (10-18-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-18-2013),_satomi325_ (10-18-2013),_sorraia_ (10-18-2013),_TerrieL_ (10-18-2013)

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## Mike41793

> GUYS!!!  SCIENCE DIET IS GOING TO MAKE KIBBLES FOR SNAKES!!!  DIDN'T YOU KNOW???
> 
> wait... I was having a nightmare...  I'm awake now.  Carry on.


Well ball pythons aren't carnivores so that would work!

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## Coleslaw007

Guys, "Jackie" just joined yesterday and has 2 posts total, me thinks we have a troll here.

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_sorraia_ (10-18-2013)

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## Anya

Meph, I think less of you for 'thanking' Jackie's post.

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_Mike41793_ (10-18-2013)

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## Mephibosheth1

Sorry you feel that way Anya

I'm just glad to see another voice of reason here on the thread

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-18-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-18-2013)

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## Coleslaw007

Awww... trouble in paradise?

Wow, "voice of reason" LMAO.

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_Anya_ (10-18-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-18-2013),_MootWorm_ (10-18-2013)

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## Kodieh

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine...res-omnivores/

quick google search pulled that up.
The key though, if you actually end up reading it, is that dogs have evolved to SURVIVE on a diet including other things besides meat. Not live, not thrive, not do well but survive. You could feed a dog table scraps it's whole life, and it would get a couple years worth of life. Not a good life, mind you, but it would survive.

They're carnivores by the way.

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_Anya_ (10-18-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-18-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-18-2013)

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## AlexisFitzy

Wow you guys just love to attack people don't you? Jackie literally just joined and she's already getting bashed. She was just giving her opinion on the subject as Everyone else has. Everyone else has said do this and don't do that so don't reprimand her for doing the same exact thing. It's not like she's not educated on the matter, she's a veterinary assistant so maybe she knows a thing or two. Maybe she's wrong and maybe she is right but that doesn't give any of your the authority to attack a new member. No one who has posted has the 100% correct answer. Everyone is giving their opinion and what they have experienced and researched so the op will have to go through all of these post and figure out what they want to do with their new puppy. I love all of you guys and think all of you are wonderful people but I just don't like seeing people be mean to others especially when they are brand new to forum. I hope everyone is having a wonderful day and an even better season!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

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Jackie (12-20-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013)

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## anatess

> Well ball pythons aren't carnivores so that would work!


Why is there no laugh button?   :Taz:

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## anatess

> Wow you guys just love to attack people don't you? Jackie literally just joined and she's already getting bashed. She was just giving her opinion on the subject as Everyone else has. Everyone else has said do this and don't do that so don't reprimand her for doing the same exact thing. It's not like she's not educated on the matter, she's a veterinary assistant so maybe she knows a thing or two. Maybe she's wrong and maybe she is right but that doesn't give any of your the authority to attack a new member. No one who has posted has the 100% correct answer. Everyone is giving their opinion and what they have experienced and researched so the op will have to go through all of these post and figure out what they want to do with their new puppy. I love all of you guys and think all of you are wonderful people but I just don't like seeing people be mean to others especially when they are brand new to forum. I hope everyone is having a wonderful day and an even better season!! 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


I don't see bashing going on.  Or being mean.  Just because we disagree on what someone says doesn't mean that we are bashing.

When somebody says something like this:  




> Just please stay away from raw diets!


She needs to be put in her place.  Especially if she is a vet tech.  Because any person who attends vet school should know that dogs did not evolve to what they are today because of cooked food or commercially packaged kibbles.

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_Anya_ (10-18-2013)

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## Mephibosheth1

> She needs to be put in her place.  Especially if she is a vet tech.  Because any person who attends vet school should know that dogs did not evolve to what they are today because of cooked food or commercially packaged kibbles.



Jackie, as a fellow Veterinary Professional, I would advise you to stay out of this argument.  People have their own views, and if they would like to stay with them we can do nothing to force them.  It is a sad fact that people would rather go against the advice of knowledgeable people because they are "part of the establishment", etc.  it will be pointless to force them to change.

Im totally with you, but you can't win this argument...Ive tried and failed many times

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Jackie (12-20-2013)

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## Kodieh

> Jackie, as a fellow Veterinary Professional, I would advise you to stay out of this argument.  People have their own views, and if they would like to stay with them we can do nothing to force them.  It is a sad fact that people would rather go against the advice of knowledgeable people because they are "part of the establishment", etc.  it will be pointless to force them to change.
> 
> Im totally with you, but you can't win this argument...Ive tried and failed many times


You're in school. You're not licensed, which basically means you're no different than the rest of us. You can't be a professional when you aren't one at all, I'm sorry about that.

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_Anya_ (10-18-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-18-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-18-2013),_sorraia_ (10-18-2013)

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## Anya

> It's not like she's not educated on the matter, she's a veterinary assistant so maybe she knows a thing or two.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


No, she's *not* educated on the matter. Vet-tech does NOT equal dog nutritionist.

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_Coleslaw007_ (10-18-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-18-2013)

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## Mike41793

Meph have you ever seen and played with a dog in person thats on a proper raw diet? Like i said, i visited pookies dogs in person, i've never seen a dog on purina or kibbles as solid and healthy as them.

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## Anya

Heck, I've seen what a decent, grain-free kibble does for a cat. I had a cat extremely allergic to grain...switched him over and not only did his allergies clear up, he positively GLOWED and thrived after just a few short weeks. It was an amazing transformation. I was a believer, lol.

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## AlexisFitzy

Well I'm going to politely remove myself from this conversation/debate/argument or whatever you would like to call this. I just jumped back in to try and defend a new member. I hope everyone has a wonderful day  :Smile:  


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_Kodieh_ (10-18-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013)

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## anatess

> Jackie, as a fellow Veterinary Professional, I would advise you to stay out of this argument.  People have their own views, and if they would like to stay with them we can do nothing to force them.  It is a sad fact that people would rather go against the advice of knowledgeable people because they are "part of the establishment", etc.  it will be pointless to force them to change.
> 
> Im totally with you, but you can't win this argument...Ive tried and failed many times


And as a fellow animal enthusiast, I would advise you to study a lot more on the topic.  Animal enthusiasts don't come up with their own solid views because they're stupid.  And that includes you.

You can't force me to change because I grew up with a whole country of dogs on raw food.  You think they sell kibbles in the Philippines?  Nope they don't.  Unless you pay an arm and a leg for them at the fancy pet shops that sell shock collars and dog earrings.  And we are quite active in the Kennel Club show rings.

So people saying, "Don't feed your dog raw!"... is, to the rest of the world, just another American idiot.

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_Anya_ (10-18-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-18-2013),_sorraia_ (10-18-2013)

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## Mephibosheth1

Sure, all animal enthusiasts are good at finding the truth on things :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Bugmom

I feed Rachel Ray's Nutrish brand of grain free dog food. It's inexpensive but IMO healthier than the "high end" brands by virtue of being grain free. The dogs seem to shed less now, and they treat that food like candy. They were pretty apathetic about meal time before I switched.

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## Skiploder

Dogs are not obligate carnivores.  Cats are obligate carnivores.

Obligate carnivores are those that require a diet _almost_ exclusively of meat.  Being obligate carnivores, cats require a compound found exclusively in meat and other animal tissues - taurine. 

Taurine is a necessity for all animals, but because it is absent in plant material, herbivores and omnivores must produce it from other amino acids in their diet.  Obligate carnivores must eat other animals that contain taurine in their meat and organs. Cats are hence obligate carnivores.

Dogs can synthesize their own taurine from other amino acids in their diet, which indicates that they are not obligate carnivores in terms of physiology. However not all dog breeds are the same. Some giant and large dog breeds tend to have shorter intestines than smaller dogs (which is measured relative to body length). Also larger dogs can be afflicted from taurine deficiency (due to higher excretion in their urine) more often than smaller dogs. Therefore large dogs probably require more meat in their diets than small dogs to ensure good health. 

The BS blanket statement that dogs do not benefit from fruits or vegetables is just that - BS.  Cats don't, dogs do.

Dogs - as do many members of the order carnivora - will eat anything they can in the wild.  Dogs may not have amylase in their saliva, they secrete it from their pancreas - something that cats cannot do.   Amylase is the enzyme that digests starches.  Again, come to the argument with facts, not blanket statements, and certainly not your individual preferences.

Dogs have evolved/adapted to eat plant material - period.  They can extract nutrition and sustenance out of it.  

I have had dogs lead long and healthy lives on kibble and I know people who have had dogs lead long and healthy lives on proper raw diets.  I have fed my dogs raw in the past and have been honest that I saw absolutely no difference healthwise.  

All of this talk about allergies and other problems with digestion has less to do with canine nutrition and more to do with the epidemic of inbred and functionally deficient dogs that dominate the landscape.  Food allergies and environmental allergies are issues in which diet can play a factor, but which poor genetics is an undeniable cause.  Most food allergies in canines centers on intolerance to proteins - not grains.  Talk to someone who tests dogs for food allergies and ask them what the number one food allergy is for dogs.......hint - it involves proteins - not carbs.

I mountain bike with my patterdale and hunt with her 9 months out of the year.  Like most patterdales, she comes from stock not burdened by out of control line breeding, or by fads that promote physiological  mutations that favor form over function.  On her grain free kibble diet, she can hunt on a 90 degree day, digging into den after den for 4 to 8 hours, or run along a mountain bike for miles.  Your pugs, bulldogs, et al cannot do that on a raw diet, a kibbled diet or on any diet.    

For all of you that think that being a carnivore means only eating raw meat - what is a bear classified as?  How about a bamboo eating panda bear?

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-18-2013),_cristacake_ (04-19-2016),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013),_satomi325_ (10-18-2013)

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## satomi325

Top 12 ingredients in ---

*Science Diet Adult Light:*
Ingredients: Ground whole grain corn, soybean mill run, chicken by-product meal, powdered cellulose, corn gluten meal, soybean meal, chicken liver flavor, soybean oil, latic acid, flaxseed, carmel color, iodized salt.

Wow..."meat" isn't even the first ingredient here. By-product is #3!! So according to the ingredients list, the bulk of this diet consists of corn. 

*Vegan Dog Food - Evolution Diet:*
Ingredients: Whole Oats, Corn Gluten Meal, Soybean Meal, Soybean Oil, Carrots, Dried Tomato Pomace, Dried Potato Product, Dried Molasses, Deflourinated Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Salt

Comparison to quality rodent diets??
*Mazuri Rodent 6f*:
Ingredients: Ground Corn, Soybean Meal, Animal Fat, Cane Molasses, Wheat Middlings, Calcium Carbonate, Ground Oats, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dicalcium Phosphate, Ground Wheat, Ground Soybean Hulls, Fish Meal, Salt, Brewers Dried Yeast, Dried Beet Pulp, Wheat Germ, Corn Gluten Meal,

*Harlan 7012 Rodent Formulated Laboratory diet:*
Ingredients: Ground corn, soybean meal, ground oats, wheat midds, alfalfa meal, corn gluten meal, brewers yeast


Maybe it's just me, but Science Diet and quality rodent food sure look similar....

*Just for funsies*:
3 formulas of Science Diet Cat(OBLIGATE CARNIVORE that CANNOT ABSORB, PROCESS, DIGEST many of these ingredients, which does lead to Feline Diabetes):
1) Chicken, Whole Grain Wheat, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat, Brewers Rice , Wheat Gluten, Chicken Liver Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg Product, Calcium Sulfate, Lactic Acid, Potassium Chloride
2) Chicken, Whole Grain Wheat, Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Powdered Cellulose, Wheat Gluten, Pork Fat, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver Flavor, Lactic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate
3) Chicken, Whole Grain Wheat, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat, Powdered Cellulose, Pea Bran Meal, Dried Egg Product, Wheat Gluten, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver Flavor, Lactic Acid, Soybean Oil

So much for healthy!! SD killing cats, one case of diabetes and obesity at a time. 

*Recap on a quality biologically appropriate kibble*:
Orijen adult kibble:
First 12 ingredients: Boneless chicken, chicken meal, chicken liver, whole herring, boneless turkey, turkey meal, turkey liver, whole eggs, boneless walleye, whole salmon, chicken heart, chicken cartilage

Orijen Freeze dry:
First 12 ingredients: Chicken (ground with bone), turkey (ground with bone), whole herring, chicken liver, chicken heart, whole eggs, spinach greens, pea fiber, turkey liver, turkey heart, whole flounder

Uhhh, looking at the dentition of my canine and mustelid, I can definitely say the Orijen looks the most promising. :X



Dog Dentition:


Obligate Carnivore Cat Dentition:


Obligate Carnivore Ferret Dentition (sure looks similar to that dog):


Omnivore Bear Dentition:


Omnivore Baboon Dentition:


Omnivore Olive Baboon Dentition:


As you can see, omnivores like bears and primates have molars that are built to crush and grind. The share a movement like herbivores that chew and grind side to side. 
Carnivores have teeth that slice, chop, and shear. Not to mention, they aren't capable of grinding skull movements. Their mouths can only open up and down in a scissor like movement. 

I.Jaw biomechanics  shearing vs grinding
a. Toothrows will shear if the perpendicular distance between toothrows and the jaw joint are not equal, or of one toothrow is above and the other below the joint. 
b. Teeth will occlude simultaneously if the distance between toothrows and joint are equal and both toothrows are in line with, or equally distant from, the joint
c. Gape is maximized in carnivores by emphasizing the temporal muscle in jaw mechanics. This allows them to have a smaller masseter movement.
d. In contrast, herbivores use the masseter muscle which provides direct source (e.g., not via the articulation) but  constraints gape


Mammals possess four types of teeth: incisors, canines, premolars, and molars. Incisors and canines are for piercing and tearing flesh. Broad flat molars aid in grinding. 

Yes, dogs have an increased ability to digest carbs when compared to wolves. The hypothesis is that this ability is what helped along their domestication. That being said, the ability to digest something does not mean that it is a healthy diet. I could feed cattle cardboard, and they would digest it, but that doesn't mean that I should. Corn in particular is usually not a good choice for most simple- stomached animals because they lack the microflora and gut setup to properly break it down. If a cow needs four stomach chambers, a horse a cecum, and both an army of microorganisms, just to digest corn and other grains, a simple- stomached animal like a dog is not getting much use out of it as a food source. With that said, based on the behavior, digestive system, and dentition, it is clear that they are optimized to primarily eat meat. A little bit of carbohydrates are fine. The main issue is offering a diet that is 50-90% carbohydrates (whoa! That sounds like.... Science Diet! Who would have guess!!  :Surprised: )

Domestic Cat(Obligate Carnivore):


Domestic Dog:


Black Bear (Omnivore):


Olive Baboon (Omnivore):


Rat (Grainivore to digest all of that grains, corn, and delicious Science Diet goodness):


European Rabbit (Herbivore):


Just basic text book images, where the dog's digestive tract sure looks identical to that carnivorous digestive tract...hmmm




Digestion involves a number of mechanical, chemical, and microbial actions to degrade food into simple molecular compounds that can be absorbed into the body. Digestion in the mouth is mechanical (breaking large pieces of food into smaller pieces). Dogs and cats do not contain the enzyme amylase in their saliva like omnivores and herbivores. This does not allow the animal to digest starches and carbohydrates in the mouth. Dentition reflects on the type of diet consumed by a species; cutting and tearing prey. The digestive tract is short in dogs and cats, compared to other omnivores. They have a short digestive tract and strong stomach acid that allows faster digestion and a higher metabolism to digest animal protein and kill harmful bacteria(in meat). Herbivores and some omnivores have evolved to have very long digestive tracts. Longer digestive tracts are needed to properly process plant based materials.

Dietary functional fibers are plant substances not digested by mammalian intestinal enzymes. These include certain carbohydrates as well as other types of plant based material. The only "benefits" to this is having an animal with consistent large bowel movements.

Some crappy random notes I have from my Evolution of Mammals university course a while back:
- Digestion in Mammals (some key adaptations)

The mammalian stomach
I. 3 main parts: cardiac, fundus and pyloris
-Cardiac region- mucus, but no digestion glands
-Fundus- greatest # of glands, include cells that secrete HCl, and glands that secrete pyloric mucus
-Pyloris- produces more mucus

II. Carnivores
-Large glandular fundus
-Simple digestive tract
-Meat is relatively easy to digest, just have to chop it up 
-High protein diet = high nitrogenous waste products, so need a lot of water
-Insectivory is similar to carnivorous diet, shrews for example

Because meat is easily digested, the gastric system of carnivores is typically short and simple. They are monogastricmeaning they have only one stomach (unlike a ruminants stomach which has four chambers). Due to the ease at which components required for growth are obtained from food, some carnivores have lost the ability to synthesis them

The teeth of carnivores are sharp and strong, this makes it easy to rip and tear meat from bones of prey. When possible, the meat is broken down further by the teeth to ensure maximum surface area for digestion by enzymes in the stomach and small intestines. True carnivores do not have digestive enzymes in their saliva.

Due to the lack of salivary enzymes, food spends little time in the mouth of a carnivore, it is shortly swallowed 

III. Herbivores
-Fewer glands
-Large, complex digestive tract
-Food is simple, typically low in nutritional value so it needs extra time and processes to break down.

Herbivores only consume plant material which is very difficult to digest. No vertebrates make an enzyme capable of breaking down cellulose. As the diet includes large amounts of fiber, the digestive tract of herbivores is comparatively much longer than carnivores, due to fiber being much more difficult to digest.

To overcome this, herbivores have developed a symbiotic relationship with a population of microflora that inhabit a specialized region of the gut for fermentation e.g. the caecum or rumen of ruminants. The microflora population of the gut is able to breakdown cellulose and use the glucose for its own metabolic needs. As a waste product of this process, the microflora population releases volatile fatty acids which the herbivore utilities for energy. The production of these fatty acids is known as fermentation (fermentation also produces heat which keeps the animal warm).

There are two types of fermenting herbivores, those which ferment in the foregut and those which ferment in thehindgut. The difference between them is the site of fermentation and the organ used for fermentation; the attributes of the fermentation chamber remain the same however  Anaerobic, plenty of fluid, regulated pH, steady nitrogen supply and the correct temperature.

2 approaches to herbivory:
1. Ruminant/foregut digestion
- Macropodid and potoroid marsupials have a sacciform foregut
- Forage and chew the food up (some breakdown through salivary glands)
- Food goes to rumen (not the stomach) and can occupy ½ the room in the abdomen
- Copious amounts of saliva produced (200L/day for cows), purpose is to have neutral pH in rumen using bicarbonate
- Saliva also contains urea which provides protein source for microbes in rumen
- High concentration of microorganisms to digest plant materials, which are difficult to digest.
- Fix nitrogen in urea
- Break down cellulose that cows are eating, turn into glucose which is used by microflora in rumen as their source of starches
- Byproduct of that is volatile fatty acids (VFAs) which is the primary source of carbon for the ruminant
- Food sent to reticulum, brought back up esophagous and then to mouth to be rechewed (chewing cud)
- Reswallowed and goes back to rumen
- Food then goes to omasum
- Finally goes to abomasum (true stomach)- acidic pH, acids kill microflora and they are digested (get its protein), gets carbon from VFAs released from rumen
- Benefit is that you get efficient digestion of plants before it even hits the stomach (carnivores lack all of this)

2. Cecant/hindgut digestion
- Small stomach, large intestine w/ a big cecum
- happens after acidic digestion so less efficient overall
- have to eat a lot more food as a result of eating low nutritional foods in order to compensate
- Frequently partake in coprophagy, where they re-consume their feces in order to get all the nutrients possible from a food item
- Rumen is big so it means ruminant has to be big
- need less water to get rid of nitrogenous waste products because its getting recycled (urea)
- Poor quality food hard for them to digest
- tannins and microresins can gum up the system or hurt the microflora
- Food passage in cow is 70-100 hours
- Cecant digesters fair well even if food quality is poor, they just churn it out, but they need to eat more of it
- Goal is to eat, eat, eat and then go home and chew cud

I'm not really going to take the time to explain everything. But animals that can digest plant based materials have complex digestive tracts for a reason. Plant based materials are difficult to digest and absorb, which is why their digestive tracts are so long. Their nutritional value is low compared to animal content, which is why these animals have to be constantly feeding and rechewing their food over and over again. In short, dogs and other carnivores lack this complex system.

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_catzeye21138_ (10-21-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-18-2013),_GoingPostal_ (10-21-2013),_Kodieh_ (10-18-2013),_Mike41793_ (10-18-2013),_sorraia_ (10-18-2013),_TerrieL_ (10-18-2013)

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## satomi325

I don't really care if people feed kibble or not. I know many people don't like raw and there are plenty of quality commercial foods out there. Heck, I feed my dogs partial kibble.
HOWEVER, I don't think advocating Science Diet is 'right' either. And that was the main point of the above post...

Dogs can digest some plant based materials, but not a lot, which is what low quality kibble is jammed packed with.
When the bulk of a dog's diet is full of grain/corn/rice fillers rather than meat, something is truly wrong in my opinion.

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Bugmom (10-21-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-18-2013),_GoingPostal_ (10-21-2013)

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## Stewart_Reptiles

I think everyone should feed what works for them and their dogs so long it is quality I really don't see an issue with either raw or kibble whatever works.

I feed Solid Gold Bison based dog food.




> Ingredients
> 
> Bison, Ocean Fish Meal, Cracked Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Rice Bran, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols) , Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Salmon Oil (source of DHA), Choline Chloride, Taurine, Dried Chicory Root, Parsley Flakes, Pumpkin Meal, Almond Oil, Sesame Oil, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Thyme, Blueberries, Cranberries, Carrots, Broccoli, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Panthothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D Supplement, Folic Acid


Works for them, nice coat, healthy stool (yeah I am one of those crazy people that examine the stool of their dogs  :Wink: ), healthy dogs.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-18-2013),_GoingPostal_ (10-21-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013)

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## Mike41793

> so long it is quality


This right here.

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_anatess_ (10-18-2013),_satomi325_ (10-18-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (10-18-2013)

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## AlexisFitzy

> I think everyone should feed what works for them and their dogs so long it is quality I really don't see an issue with either raw or kibble whatever works.
> 
> I feed Solid Gold Bison based dog food.
> 
> 
> 
> Works for them, nice coat, healthy stool (yeah I am one of those crazy people that examine the stool of their dogs ), healthy dogs.


This is what I've been waiting to hear  :Smile:  what a simple statement, and a simple answer to a simple question. Thank you. Agree One Million Percent!!! 


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_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013),Stewart_Reptiles (10-18-2013)

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## anatess

> The BS blanket statement that dogs do not benefit from fruits or vegetables is just that - BS.  Cats don't, dogs do.


You're not paying attention.  Nobody here says dogs don't benefit from vegetables.  Quite a lot of raw feeders follow the BARF (as opposed to PMR) that includes vegetables.  But many here are telling you that dogs DO NOT NEED vegetables.  You can eliminate veggies completely out of their diet and it will not harm them any.  On the other hand, if you completely eliminate animals out of their diet, they will be unhealthy dogs.  And even - if their diet consists mainly of plants more than animals, they will be unhealthy too.  Yes, that's why Science Diet changed their formula to have meat as the first ingredient.  No, that did not make them quality food.  It's still a scummy food for many other reasons.





> Dogs - as do many members of the order carnivora - will eat anything they can in the wild.  Dogs may not have amylase in their saliva, they secrete it from their pancreas - something that cats cannot do.   Amylase is the enzyme that digests starches.  Again, come to the argument with facts, not blanket statements, and certainly not your individual preferences.
> 
> Dogs have evolved/adapted to eat plant material - period.  They can extract nutrition and sustenance out of it.


Yes, Americans have evolved to eat McDonalds and can extract nutrition and sustenance out of it.  And your point is?





> I have had dogs lead long and healthy lives on kibble and I know people who have had dogs lead long and healthy lives on proper raw diets.  I have fed my dogs raw in the past and have been honest that I saw absolutely no difference healthwise.


Sure, and nobody here... .NODOBDY... said your dogs are going to get sick on kibble.  Everybody here is saying there are better kibble than Science Diet... or gasp!... Purina!  (Yes, a vet tech just claimed in this here thread that Purina is just as good as Blue Buffalo).





> All of this talk about allergies and other problems with digestion has less to do with canine nutrition and more to do with the epidemic of inbred and functionally deficient dogs that dominate the landscape.  Food allergies and environmental allergies are issues in which diet can play a factor, but which poor genetics is an undeniable cause.  Most food allergies in canines centers on intolerance to proteins - not grains.  Talk to someone who tests dogs for food allergies and ask them what the number one food allergy is for dogs.......hint - it involves proteins - not carbs.
> 
> I mountain bike with my patterdale and hunt with her 9 months out of the year.  Like most patterdales, she comes from stock not burdened by out of control line breeding, or by fads that promote physiological  mutations that favor form over function.  On her grain free kibble diet, she can hunt on a 90 degree day, digging into den after den for 4 to 8 hours, or run along a mountain bike for miles.  Your pugs, bulldogs, et al cannot do that on a raw diet, a kibbled diet or on any diet.


AMEN.  I have 2 English Bulldogs.  I'm not sold on grain free.  I'm on LOW CARBS.  Or as low a carbs as possible.  Grain Free food is useless if you're just swapping rice for white potato unless your dog is allergic to rice.  But, grain free food is corn free so you have one good thing about grain free - GMO ingredient is highly unlikely.





> For all of you that think that being a carnivore means only eating raw meat - what is a bear classified as?  How about a bamboo eating panda bear?


And you don't even stop to wonder... not even a smidgen... why Panda bears sleep for most of the day?  Or why they have a very hard time pro-creating?

Here's some info for you from http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=379:



> *Why Do Pandas Eat Bamboo?*
> 
>  Why do pandas eat bamboo? It seems bizarre that a creature whose ancestors were carnivores would turn towards an almost exclusively vegetarian diet, and in particular to a nutritional source as poor as bamboo. It has to spend more than half of every day sitting and eating just to extract enough calories. [Source: Henry Nicholls, The Telegraph, September 28, 2010] 
> 
>  When you think about it objectively, though, the prolific growth rate of these hardy plants, their year-round availability and widespread distribution (until humans appeared on the scene) actually made bamboo a pretty attractive snack. And the panda goes about extracting what little nutrition there is in great style: a sixth digit fashioned from its wrist bone allows it to grasp at stems and strip off leaves; its hefty skull and strong teeth provide the means to crush through the tough bark to the goodness within; and its digestion is aided by an intimate symbiosis with some very powerful gut microbes. So effective are they that Japanese scientists were able to use bacteria extracted from panda faeces to achieve the complete digestion of kitchen refuse  a finding for which they rightly won the biology category in the 2009 Ig Nobel awards for improbable research. 
> 
>  Interestingly, when geneticists sequenced the pandas entire genome in 2009, they found a messed-up gene that means they probably cant taste flesh, which may explain why they dont seek it out that often. But when the opportunity presents itself, pandas will happily tuck in. Researchers carrying out the first proper fieldwork in the 1980s found droppings that contained hair from a golden monkey and the hair, bones and hooves of a musk deer. The panda genome still contains all the enzymes needed for digesting meat, and these rare lapses into carnivory might be crucial in providing important trace nutrients that are absent from bamboo. They have also helped researchers, who have baited traps with goat heads and pig bones to lure and then collar their quarry.

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_sorraia_ (10-18-2013)

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## satomi325

I do agree to feed what you want as long as it's quality.

An improper raw can do as much damage as low quality kibble. Feeding quality, whether raw or kibble, should be a given and a requirement.

But unfortunately some of the foods suggested in this thread was less than quality and not appropriate to feed imo...  :Sad: 
And it's a shame that certain veterinarians blindly advocate those diets.

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## Skiploder

> You're not paying attention.  Nobody here says dogs don't benefit from vegetables.  Quite a lot of raw feeders follow the BARF (as opposed to PMR) that includes vegetables.  But many here are telling you that dogs DO NOT NEED vegetables.  You can eliminate veggies completely out of their diet and it will not harm them any.  On the other hand, if you completely eliminate animals out of their diet, they will be unhealthy dogs.  And even - if their diet consists mainly of plants more than animals, they will be unhealthy too.  Yes, that's why Science Diet changed their formula to have meat as the first ingredient.  No, that did not make them quality food.  It's still a scummy food for many other reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Americans have evolved to eat McDonalds and can extract nutrition and sustenance out of it.  And your point is?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why do you always assume that I'm addressing you in any of this?  

I ignored it the first time - when it was more than obvious that you felt my comments were directed at you.  From here on out when I'm addressing your comments or your POV, I'll make sure you know. 

That way, you can give your severely wedged up panties a breather.

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_bad-one_ (10-21-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013)

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## sho220

> Guys, "Jackie" just joined yesterday and has 2 posts total, me thinks we have a troll here.


A person with a differing opinion is not a troll...maybe she was just compelled to post because of all the know-it-all attitudes present on this thread? Why not one more?

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-18-2013),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013)

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## sho220

> And as a fellow animal enthusiast, I would advise you to study a lot more on the topic. Animal enthusiasts don't come up with their own solid views because they're stupid. And that includes you.
> 
> You can't force me to change because I grew up with a whole country of dogs on raw food. You think they sell kibbles in the Philippines? Nope they don't. Unless you pay an arm and a leg for them at the fancy pet shops that sell shock collars and dog earrings. And we are quite active in the Kennel Club show rings.
> 
> So people saying, "Don't feed your dog raw!"... is,* to the rest of the world, just another American idiot.*


Well...that was out of left field... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Skiploder

> A person with a differing opinion is not a troll...maybe she was just compelled to post because of all the know-it-all attitudes present on this thread? Why not one more?


As a long ago poster (who no longer frequents this site) once lamented - going against dogma on forums automatically gets you out of the cool kid club.  No pun intended with the use of the word "dogma".

Too bad, Jack Spirko was a cool guy with lots of knowledge who often went against the current forum dogma and took a lot of heat.  Be nice to hear from him again.

Think it's bad here, go to a dog food forum and question raw, BARF, grain free, whatever and see how fast it escalates.  There are a lot of dog food nazis in the world.  I get a kick out of the pug owner whose dog is dysplastic, brachycephalic, entropic/ectropic, has a hypoplastic trachea, an elongated soft palate, inverted laryngeal saccules, luxating patella, stenotic nares, PRE, PDE, etc. and goes after the throat of a kibble feeder.  Whatever.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (10-18-2013),_bad-one_ (11-09-2013),_cristacake_ (04-19-2016),_Mephibosheth1_ (10-18-2013)

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## catzeye21138

> Science diet is a clinically proven good dog food. Don't buy in to blue buffalos gimmicks. Their advertisement for hollistic means nothing at all. They are a mid grade food charging you a lot of money. Stick with your purina ones or eukanubas before any food that advertises natural or hollistic. I swear by science diet, but all dogs are different! (Just please stay away from raw diets!)


I worked at a vet clinic for a while, and volunteered at another, and the only damn reason they suggest it is because they get paid ridiculous amounts of money to do so. I've been to ONE vet clinic that didn't buy into it, and they had canidae or something like that.

edit: Sorry, didn't see all of the troll talk before hand.

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_satomi325_ (10-21-2013),_sorraia_ (10-21-2013)

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## satomi325

> I worked at a vet clinic for a while, and volunteered at another, and the only damn reason they suggest it is because they get paid ridiculous amounts of money to do so. I've been to ONE vet clinic that didn't buy into it, and they had canidae or something like that.
> 
> .


You're absolutely correct. Only reason for a vet to suggest feeding SD is because they're endorsed. And the nutrition courses at vet schools are sponsored by SD too.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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_Anya_ (10-21-2013),_catzeye21138_ (10-21-2013)

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## anatess

> Why do you always assume that I'm addressing you in any of this?  
> 
> I ignored it the first time - when it was more than obvious that you felt my comments were directed at you.  From here on out when I'm addressing your comments or your POV, I'll make sure you know. 
> 
> That way, you can give your severely wedged up panties a breather.


And why do you get your panties in a twist when I address your post?  So if you say ball pythons grow up to be 25 feet long, I'm supposed to just not correct it because it was addressed to the general public instead of directly to me?

----------


## anatess

Why we raw feeders here keep on talking is because somebody said not to feed their dog raw and she got supported by others.

If you read EVERY SINGLE post from the raw feeders here... THEY NEVER ONCE SAID NOT TO FEED YOUR DOG KIBBLE.  They just said Purina and Science Diet are not quality kibble.  Which, if you would just spend one ounce of none-Purina/Hills supported research will lead you to the same conclusions.

So, there is no attacking from the raw feeder camp here.  We merely tried to inform y'all.  Now, if you notice, all the scientific info presented in this thread is from the raw feeders who have spent a lot of time immersed in data.  There is no scientific evidence presented in this thread that shows why dogs should not be fed raw.

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_Anya_ (10-21-2013),_sorraia_ (10-21-2013)

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## sorraia

> Why we raw feeders here keep on talking is because somebody said not to feed their dog raw and she got supported by others.
> 
> If you read EVERY SINGLE post from the raw feeders here... THEY NEVER ONCE SAID NOT TO FEED YOUR DOG KIBBLE.  They just said Purina and Science Diet are not quality kibble.  Which, if you would just spend one ounce of none-Purina/Hills supported research will lead you to the same conclusions.
> 
> So, there is no attacking from the raw feeder camp here.  We merely tried to inform y'all.  Now, if you notice, all the scientific info presented in this thread is from the raw feeders who have spent a lot of time immersed in data.  There is no scientific evidence presented in this thread that shows why dogs should not be fed raw.


Just to add to all of this... In my experience raw feeders tend to get defensive (and thus present an overload of research they've done, as seen in this thread), for one simple reason: WE often get attacked for our choices, even when we are accepting of others' choices. Case in Point... the previous post saying "Just please stay away from raw diets!"

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_Anya_ (10-21-2013),_Coleslaw007_ (10-23-2013),_satomi325_ (10-21-2013)

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## swolek

I feed (and fed, when I had foster dogs and family dogs) a prey model raw diet to my pup  :Smile: . If I absolutely was forced to feed a premade food, it'd be Stella and Chewy's. I've fed it to several animals and they always did well on it, decent ingredients, too. Unfortunately, it's super expensive unless you have a small dog so I'm hesitant to recommend it to people! It especially seems pricey after doing a raw diet where I can buy 0.50/lb chicken backs and cheap organs :p.

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## SlitherinSisters

Holy cow this thread really took off! I'm super late and haven't read a lot of it yet, but I LOVE Diamond Naturals, I use the lamb and rice. If you are ever looking at switching dog food you should check out this site http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ I love that site. You read up on the foods and find the best bang for your buck.

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## SnowShredder

Blue Buffalo Wilderness - Duck

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## StanB

Like to feed mine raw during the weekdays when we stock up on raw food for her during the weekend. Pedigree during the weekend, with some Cosequin supplements for her weak joints :Wink:

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## SaintTawny

You'd be hard pressed to find a worse brand to pair with your raw diet than pedigree. Awful awful stuff. If you're going to fill gaps with kibble, I'd suggest picking something like Blue Buffalo Wilderness. Raw diets (done correctly, as a veterinary assistant I see them done incorrectly a lot) are a top quality source of food for your buddy, it allows you to control potential allergens and helps body condition to be more fluid. Pedigree is basically $1/lb for everything any dog has ever been found to be allergic to, plus a ton of extra filler that makes it harder for your dog to maintain good body condition.

When I moved in with boyfriend, he was feeding his husky a Purina product, and when I got my GSD mix puppy we switched her onto Taste of the Wild Salmon formula (a compromise, he didn't want to "go crazy" with an expensive food) because I refused to feed my boy that garbage. Within a week of the final switch we could tell a huge difference with her coat. I had considered going to raw, but my boss is pretty generally against it because of how commonly people screw it up, I'd never hear the end of it if I had to bring one of my dogs in for a problem she thought could be related.

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## 4theSNAKElady

> You'd be hard pressed to find a worse brand to pair with your raw diet than pedigree. Awful awful stuff. If you're going to fill gaps with kibble, I'd suggest picking something like Blue Buffalo Wilderness. Raw diets (done correctly, as a veterinary assistant I see them done incorrectly a lot) are a top quality source of food for your buddy, it allows you to control potential allergens and helps body condition to be more fluid. Pedigree is basically $1/lb for everything any dog has ever been found to be allergic to, plus a ton of extra filler that makes it harder for your dog to maintain good body condition.
> 
> When I moved in with boyfriend, he was feeding his husky a Purina product, and when I got my GSD mix puppy we switched her onto Taste of the Wild Salmon formula (a compromise, he didn't want to "go crazy" with an expensive food) because I refused to feed my boy that garbage. Within a week of the final switch we could tell a huge difference with her coat. I had considered going to raw, but my boss is pretty generally against it because of how commonly people screw it up, I'd never hear the end of it if I had to bring one of my dogs in for a problem she thought could be related.


  :Clap: 

sent from my incubator

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## Jackie

> I worked at a vet clinic for a while, and volunteered at another, and the only damn reason they suggest it is because they get paid ridiculous amounts of money to do so. I've been to ONE vet clinic that didn't buy into it, and they had canidae or something like that.
> 
> edit: Sorry, didn't see all of the troll talk before hand.


I CURRENTLY work at a vet HOSPITAL they DO NOT get paid to carry their food. We pay them to order and sell their food. We could choose any other food. 


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## satomi325

> I CURRENTLY work at a vet HOSPITAL they DO NOT get paid to carry their food. We pay them to order and sell their food. We could choose any other food. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you can choose any food, why doesn't your hospital buy and sell healthier food? There are tons of better options out there for the same or better price.
SD is not healthy at all.

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DooLittle (12-20-2013),_Shann_ (12-20-2013),SlitherinSisters (12-20-2013)

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## Jackie

We have seen dogs (our own, and clients) who thrive on it. We have talked to representatives from many different brands of dog food, compared ingredients, etc. SD seems to be the way to go. That being said, because I feed my dogs the science diet healthy advantage, doesn't mean it's the only food that dogs should have. Different pets react differently. Same with humans and people food! I said in an earlier post,"stay away from raw diets" I do apologize, it's not my place to tell you what to feed, but I will stand by the fact that dogs are NOT carnivores. 


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## DooLittle

> I CURRENTLY work at a vet HOSPITAL they DO NOT get paid to carry their food. We pay them to order and sell their food. We could choose any other food. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And thus all vets are not created equal.

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_satomi325_ (12-20-2013),_Shann_ (12-20-2013),SlitherinSisters (12-20-2013)

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## satomi325

I'll just refer back to post #155.............

Cliff Notes of #155:
Dogs are carnivores that have opportunistic omnivorous behaviors. 
They are always going to seek out prey, but if they just happen to come across a berry bush, they're not going to pass it up. 
That doesn't make them true omnivores by design and evolution.....

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## Jackie

Omnivores eat both plants and animals. Dogs are omnivores. 


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## DooLittle

Idk.  If I offered my dog meat or veggies, I know what he's gonna eat...

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## satomi325

If it were up to him, my old ferret would try to eat bananas. He must be an omnivore since he's eating fruit! 


#155

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_Shann_ (12-20-2013)

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## Kodieh

> I CURRENTLY work at a vet HOSPITAL they DO NOT get paid to carry their food. We pay them to order and sell their food. We could choose any other food. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, you're like what a vet tech? So, not a person who is clued into the "grants" the hospital receives?

Unfortunately, there are only a handful of GOOD vet schools/hospitals and with SD having the money they do, they donate to the good ones. I attend the college that has one of the top three vet schools in the United States, and they recommend science diet. Though they are partially funded by donations of food (which they sell) and money. 

It's not a shame to take the easy money, everyone will do it some time in their life. SD isn't the end all, but it also isn't dirt. 

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SlitherinSisters (12-20-2013)

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## SlitherinSisters

> If it were up to him, my old ferret would try to eat bananas. He must be an omnivore since he's eating fruit! 
> 
> 
> #155


You can't leave a glass of wine unattended in our house because my blind cat will find it... What does that make her?

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## BrandiR

> You can't leave a glass of wine unattended in our house because my blind cat will find it... What does that make her?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2


Awesome!

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DooLittle (12-20-2013),SlitherinSisters (12-20-2013)

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## satomi325

> You can't leave a glass of wine unattended in our house because my blind cat will find it... What does that make her?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2


One that may need a 12 step program.  :Wink:

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_BrandiR_ (12-20-2013),DooLittle (12-20-2013),SlitherinSisters (12-20-2013)

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## DooLittle

> You can't leave a glass of wine unattended in our house because my blind cat will find it... What does that make her?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2


An alcoholic :p

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_BrandiR_ (12-20-2013),SlitherinSisters (12-20-2013)

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## SlitherinSisters

Rofl. Sorry, I had to :-P  and now I'm about dying laughing at the responses! 

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2

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## satomi325

Or maybe she's just Brandi is disguise.

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_BrandiR_ (12-20-2013),SlitherinSisters (12-20-2013)

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## SaintTawny

> If you can choose any food, why doesn't your hospital buy and sell healthier food? There are tons of better options out there for the same or better price.
> SD is not healthy at all.


The hospital where I work is not in the business of selling pet food for healthy, normal animals. We sell SD because they have prescription diets that are proven to work for specific conditions. We don't even carry their OTC formulas, partly because our markup on food sales barely covers the cost of shipping and labor, so there would be no point. For example here, in September we diagnosed the cat-that-live(d)-in-my-house (long story) as a diabetic with renal failure. He was in rough shape, and we put him on Science Diet's prescription K/D (kidney) formula. In November, we rechecked his bloodwork and found that his kidney numbers had improved, as in we had reversed some of the damage to his kidneys done by the uncontrolled diabetes. That doesn't happen spontaneously. It wasn't a huge difference, but he got 3 healthy months on the K/D that he wouldn't have had on regular cat food. If your dog is having diarrhea, SD I/D formula actually is very helpful in settling his stomach. You can't just pick that up at the pet store, you need a prescription. That said, I would never feed my dogs an OTC SD formula, because the only one worth a damn is priced at about 2-3x as much as equivalent competitor brand foods.

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## satomi325

Non-prescription SD Adult Cat:
Chicken, *Whole Grain Wheat, Corn Gluten Meal*, Pork Fat, *Brewers Rice , Wheat Gluten*,

Non-prescription SD Sensitive Adult Cat:
*Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal*, Pork Fat, Pork Meal, Dried Egg Product,* Whole Grain Corn*,

Non-prescription SD Grain Free:
Chicken,* Potatoes, Yellow Peas, Pea Protein Concentrate*, Chicken Fat, *Potato Starch*

Whoa!!! Look at that. Ingredients that cause Diabetes in cats!! And in the first 6 ingredients as well. Tsk Tsk. Wow. Meat isn't even the first 2 ingredients for one of those diets. Cats are obligate carnivores and do not digest, absorb, or benefit from any fruits, vegetables, sugars, or carbohydrate plant matter in general. Any type carbohydrate is broken down into more sugars. It puts the pancreas into overdrive to produce an over abundance of insulin. This causes diabetes and hypoglycemia. Cats are just not meant to have any of that nasty stuff in their systems. Why do you think Feline Diabetes is so high in this country? It's from people feeding biologically inappropriate diets. And it's not just Science Diet. A ton of cat foods are just as low quality. (Also, peas have been linked to the formation of bladder stones)


And when that said diabetic cat goes to the vet it gets put on more SD!

It's a loop. SD causes the diabetes and SD is used to treat it. Big hulking surprise! Ingenious marketing strategy on SD's part though. It's a 'great' way to permanently get pet owners to keep feeding their food.

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## SlitherinSisters

> Non-prescription SD Adult Cat:
> Chicken, *Whole Grain Wheat, Corn Gluten Meal*, Pork Fat, *Brewers Rice , Wheat Gluten*,
> 
> Non-prescription SD Sensitive Adult Cat:
> *Brewers Rice, Corn Gluten Meal*, Pork Fat, Pork Meal, Dried Egg Product,* Whole Grain Corn*,
> 
> Non-prescription SD Grain Free:
> Chicken,* Potatoes, Yellow Peas, Pea Protein Concentrate*, Chicken Fat, *Potato Starch*
> 
> ...


What's even more fun is if you compare the ingredients in SD to Purina. Purina is pretty much the "store brand" SD.

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_GoingPostal_ (12-21-2013)

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## SlitherinSisters

First 5 ingredients, the most important thing to look at if you don't want to research the food. 

*Purina:*
Whole grain corn, meat and bone meal, corn gluten meal, animal fat preserved with mixed tocopherols, soybean meal

*Purina Pro:*    (no corn?!)
Salmon, brewers rice, canola meal, oat meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of vitamin E)

*Purina One:*    (no corn?!)
Chicken, brewers rice, whole barley, canola meal, chicken meal (natural source of glucosamine)


*Science Diet Dry Dog Food* 
Chicken, whole grain wheat, brewers rice, whole grain sorghum, corn gluten meal, 

*Science Diet Healthy Advantage* (because is sounds healthier)
Whole grain corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, liver flavor, dried beet pulp


If you want to feed Science Diet, by all means do it, but read the ingredients, look at the price, and then make your decision. I've never had a vet disagree with me when I say I won't feed my dog overpriced Purina One.


I'm telling you, this site is awesome  :Smile:  http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/brand/


My dog food made the list and it's only $36 for 40 pounds, SD didn't even make the list.... http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-d...dry-dog-foods/

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_GoingPostal_ (12-21-2013),_satomi325_ (12-20-2013)

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## Jumbie

I have 2 bullmastiffs and they are on a raw diet. I keep Orjen 6 fish on hand if for whatever reason I need to feed dry food.

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## swolek

All this talk about Science Diet makes me sad. I'm sorry, but none of the conditions "cured" by certain SD foods couldn't be solved with a proper raw diet  :Sad: . Of course, I'm biased, because I have a dog with allergies who can't eat ANY of the SD foods. But to be honest, no one could even pay me to feed them to my cat.

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## GeekAndDestroy

I find it interesting that people would go to their vet for food recommendations.  I've found that a reputable independent pet shop owner will be far more knowledgeable and less biased about foods than a vet.

i tried feeding my boys raw, but Foster, my ACD, went from 45lbs to 37lbs.  I would have had to double or triple his intake to keep his weight up, which would have been ridiculously expensive.  I now have him on Taste of the Wild boar formula.  After many trials and tribulations, I found he was allergic to both grains and poultry.  He needed a high protein diet to keep the weight up and keep up with his high energy demands.  Luckily, his little brother does well on anything, so I didn't have to find different food types.

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## Expensive hobby

> I find it interesting that people would go to their vet for food recommendations.  I've found that a reputable independent pet shop owner will be far more knowledgeable and less biased about foods than a vet.
> 
> i tried feeding my boys raw, but Foster, my ACD, went from 45lbs to 37lbs.  I would have had to double or triple his intake to keep his weight up, which would have been ridiculously expensive.  I now have him on Taste of the Wild boar formula.  After many trials and tribulations, I found he was allergic to both grains and poultry.  He needed a high protein diet to keep the weight up and keep up with his high energy demands.  Luckily, his little brother does well on anything, so I didn't have to find different food types.


That's the only TOTW that I haven't tried. I've had good luck with Sierra Mountain, Wetlands, and Pacific formulas.

Maybe I'll try boar next.


I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop

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## KMG

I feed my bulldog Royal Canin Bulldog mix with a good balance of cigars and beer to keep her running like a bulldog should, but she still backfires.

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## 4theSNAKElady

> I find it interesting that people would go to their vet for food recommendations.  I've found that a reputable independent pet shop owner will be far more knowledgeable and less biased about foods than a vet.


Thank you! Ive gotten lots of training on dog n cat nutrition and different brands.  :Wink: 

sent from my incubator

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## Jackie

> I find it interesting that people would go to their vet for food recommendations.  I've found that a reputable independent pet shop owner will be far more knowledgeable and less biased about foods than a vet.
> 
> i tried feeding my boys raw, but Foster, my ACD, went from 45lbs to 37lbs.  I would have had to double or triple his intake to keep his weight up, which would have been ridiculously expensive.  I now have him on Taste of the Wild boar formula.  After many trials and tribulations, I found he was allergic to both grains and poultry.  He needed a high protein diet to keep the weight up and keep up with his high energy demands.  Luckily, his little brother does well on anything, so I didn't have to find different food types.


And how much school do "independent pet shop" owners go through? And how much experience do they have in animal medicine? 


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## I-KandyReptiles

They might have none, but know that science diet is (curse) word

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## Expensive hobby

I would just like to add that vets are not the end all be all of animal knowledge. Just like you family practice medicine doctor knows a lot about a lot of things having to do with the human body, dietitians and nutritionalists know more about diet and nutrition; it's what they specialize in. 


I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop

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## Crazymonkee

> And how much school do "independent pet shop" owners go through? And how much experience do they have in animal medicine? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Vets are taught their nutrition classes sponsored by Sciet Diet... go ask a holistic vet what to feed... it won't be that crap

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_Shann_ (12-22-2013)

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## satomi325

Honestly, not that many general practice companion animal vets are very knowledgeable about nutrition. So unless they do their own research or is a specialist, they aren't taught in depth about animal nutrition. They get a general 101 class because they aren't planning to become specific nutritionists. And it's not crazy to think that vets are biased towards mainstream pet food companies like Purina, Eukanuba, Iams, SD, etc etc when many of these big food companies are the ones giving seminars. 

The only experts are board-certified veterinary nutritionists, which most vets are not. And these veterinary nutritionists have substantial training in the subject. It's just like how your general physician is probably not specialized or very knowledgeable in human nutrition other than what they learned in a generalist course in school. They still refer you to a specialized nutritionist if you have questions about diet or nutrition. (EDIT: Expensive Hobby beat me on this)

It's like finding a knowledgeable reptile vet. Many general practice companion animal vets will get a quick general course about exotics and reptiles. But they don't know anything in depth unless they do their own research or further training. I was once staying out of the area for the weekend. A friend of the friend I was staying with brought me a sick ball python. It had advanced RI. I called up a local vet to see if they saw reptiles(I heard great things about this guy from others who have taken their dogs and cats to). They said yes, they see reptiles all the time. When I got there, the vet said the snake indeed had RI and some UV light would fix him right up. I just nodded my head, paid the bill, and immediately left. I ended up taking the snake to my regular specialized exotics vet at our vet school several hours away.
So, moral of the story, just because someone is a vet doesn't mean they are knowledgeable in certain subjects.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-vet. I love and adore many veterinarians. I've worked along side with some amazing vets. However, just be aware that not all vets stand equal in practice and in knowledge. Doing your own homework can go a long way as well.

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_GoingPostal_ (12-24-2013),_Shann_ (12-22-2013)

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## Kodieh

> And how much school do "independent pet shop" owners go through? And how much experience do they have in animal medicine? 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They actually have kept most animals they sell and 9 out of 10 times have taken an animal to the vet for just about every reason. 

Yeah, you SHOULD get a culture of an RI but they'll still probably prescribe baytril in the end. So, kind of a one shoe fits all. There is really, typically, one way to do something right and these people generally know it. The good ones anyway. 

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## Expensive hobby

> Honestly, not that many general practice companion animal vets are very knowledgeable about nutrition. So unless they do their own research or is a specialist, they aren't taught in depth about animal nutrition. They get a general 101 class because they aren't planning to become specific nutritionists. And it's not crazy to think that vets are biased towards mainstream pet food companies like Purina, Eukanuba, Iams, SD, etc etc when many of these big food companies are the ones giving seminars. 
> 
> The only experts are board-certified veterinary nutritionists, which most vets are not. And these veterinary nutritionists have substantial training in the subject. It's just like how your general physician is probably not specialized or very knowledgeable in human nutrition other than what they learned in a generalist course in school. They still refer you to a specialized nutritionist if you have questions about diet or nutrition. (EDIT: Expensive Hobby beat me on this)
> 
> It's like finding a knowledgeable reptile vet. Many general practice companion animal vets will get a quick general course about exotics and reptiles. But they don't know anything in depth unless they do their own research or further training. I was once staying out of the area for the weekend. A friend of the friend I was staying with brought me a sick ball python. It had advanced RI. I called up a local vet to see if they saw reptiles(I heard great things about this guy from others who have taken their dogs and cats to). They said yes, they see reptiles all the time. When I got there, the vet said the snake indeed had RI and some UV light would fix him right up. I just nodded my head, paid the bill, and immediately left. I ended up taking the snake to my regular specialized exotics vet at our vet school several hours away.
> So, moral of the story, just because someone is a vet doesn't mean they are knowledgeable in certain subjects.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-vet. I love and adore many veterinarians. I've worked along side with some amazing vets. However, just be aware that not all vets stand equal in practice and in knowledge. Doing your own homework can go a long way as well.


UV light huh? Gonna have to try that one. Fixes them right up? Awesome! Now was it UV-A or UV-B? THAT is the real question at hand lol.

Beardies and turtles move aside, I've got a sick snake to operate on! HE NEEDS YOUR LIGHT!


I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop

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## I-KandyReptiles

> UV light huh? Gonna have to try that one. Fixes them right up? Awesome! Now was it UV-A or UV-B? THAT is the real question at hand lol.
> 
> Beardies and turtles move aside, I've got a sick snake to operate on! HE NEEDS YOUR LIGHT!
> 
> 
> I like my Dubstep to go Wop Wop Wop Wop


The only "knowledgable" reptile vet in my area told me my boa needed a UV lamp...

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## barbie.dragon

I feed my cat PMR diet aka frankenprey. Not a doggie but I would do the same if I had one

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_satomi325_ (12-22-2013)

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## Jackie

There is no one food that works for all dogs and cats. The vets I work for preach that all the time. Just because we choose to feed our animals science diet, does not mean I believe all dogs and cats should eat it. My pets do well and thrive with adult SD healthy advantage. Although my coworkers pets got very itchy with it, she switched to nutro, I think. Her pets do well with it. All pets are different just like all people are different. One of the biggest reasons we carry SD is because of the prescription diets. But we also carry a few other brands of rx foods to match SD. For example, to match SD I/d diet, we also carry purina EN. Both do basically the same thing, some pets just do better on one over the other. 


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## dgring

Science Plan (maybe its not in US but for UK owners it is in my opinion no.1

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## swolek

Dinnertime at my house:





We're getting a puppy this year, can't wait to raise a pup on raw. Both my dog and cat were fed kibble when they were younger but of course are doing so much better now  :Smile: .

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_GoingPostal_ (01-14-2014),_satomi325_ (01-13-2014)

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## Awaiting Abyss

I feed my Alaskan Malamute 4Health Performance Formula Adult dry food. Occasionally he gets raw ground meat or chicken livers/hearts/gizzards. I'd feed him a complete raw diet or whole prey diet... but at the moment I can't afford to feed a raw diet to a small horse...

My chihuahua gets 4Health Small Bites adult dry food. He spends the day down at my mother's house usually, so he also gets whatever she feeds him (table scraps). He's a vegetable eating dog... He loves cooked veggies, but meat makes him vomit unless its small amounts of chicken.

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_AlexisFitzy_ (01-14-2014)

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## Snatantula

PLEASE EVERYONE THAT HAS POSTED TO THIS WATCH THIS VIDEO.  (     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Kdzl0-oTY     )
I know hes trying to sale his book at the end but hes also speaking the truth. You can find recipes for homemade dog food and treats online.

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## LadyByrd

I started off feeding my fur babies Blue Buffalo, but found out that there was too much protein for my shepherd/heeler mix so we wound up switching to purina pro plan (salmon formula).  No more excessive stinkyness and dogs are happy and healthy.

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## GeekAndDestroy

Weird.  My Heeler does best on the highest protein formula I can find. His earlier stinkyness came from poultry allergies, and when I tried other options, he went from 44lbs to 35lbs.  He needed something with the protein to get his weight up, and keep it up.

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## LadyByrd

> Weird.  My Heeler does best on the highest protein formula I can find. His earlier stinkyness came from poultry allergies, and when I tried other options, he went from 44lbs to 35lbs.  He needed something with the protein to get his weight up, and keep it up.


Part of her stinkyness came from poultry allergies as well, which is why we only feed salmon or lamb foods.  However, she was having protein in her urine, so the vet had us reduce the amount of protein in her food.  She actually put on weight when we switched.  Maybe the German shepherd in her....

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## Monkey girl

> Hello fellow dog owners! As the time for bringing home my puppy draws near I've been researching what food to feed my corgi puppy. 
> 
> What do you feed?
> 
> Surely I'm not the only one who is wanting to feed the highest quality food possible. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


We feed all our pups raw - we go through 150lbs per month and they do really well on it!  :Very Happy:

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