# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  The Official Birth Defect Documentary *Graphic picture warning*

## satomi325

We all know that birth defects and other issues will be present when producing any kind of animal in large numbers. This is not a thread asking which defect is associated with what morph.
I wanted to start a thread to document the numbers associated with birth defects. 

Please post the following when reporting a defect:
1) Morph
2) The defect 
3) Possible reasoning for the defect (i.e. random defect, incubation temperature drop/spike, affiliated with morph, etc. etc.)
4) The parental pairing
5) Total number of clutches and/or hatchlings you have produced
6) Photos
7) Any other information that you wish to include. (Maybe post how many defective hatchlings you have produced to date)

So please update this thread with any kind of defect that may occur in your own clutches.

Thank you.

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## gsarchie

I'd actually love to see this thread take off so that I can see what I may have to deal with myself in the near future, however I don't wish defects upon anyone who does produce some babies.

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## rlditmars

I agree with gsarchie. This would be very informative. I am especially curious as there seems to be quite a few snakes being born without one or both eyes this year. I have only been on the forum less than a year so I don't know if this is typical during the hatching season, or is a more recent development.

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## Mike41793

You get this idea from that discussion on FB lol?

OMG GUYS NO MORE BREEDING BC OF POTENTIAL BIRTH DEFECTS!!! Haha

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## OhhWatALoser

> 3) Possible reasoning for the defect (i.e. random defect, incubation temperature drop/spike, *affiliated with morph*, etc. etc.)


what are we calling defects? or do you want someone posting every time they have a clutch of spiders or champs?

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## Kirks_Herps

this hatchling is in my didnt hit the odds post
c.h. female to a cinny male
cinny missing one eye
my t-stat in my inc. went bad at aprox. week 5- 6 of incubatation dropping the temps to 84-85 degrees for 5 - 7 days all 5 eggs hatched 4 normals and 1 cinny all other hatchlings are without defects

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## satomi325

> I am especially curious as there seems to be quite a few snakes being born without one or both eyes this year. I have only been on the forum less than a year so I don't know if this is typical during the hatching season, or is a more recent development.


This is the exact reason why I wanted to start this.
My friend just hatched out an eyeless fused baby. And I recalled all the other eyeless babies this year. We thought it could be informative to start a database of some sort.




> You get this idea from that discussion on FB lol?
> 
> OMG GUYS NO MORE BREEDING BC OF POTENTIAL BIRTH DEFECTS!!! Haha


Sort of. My friend who runs that page gave me the idea indirectly. This should be a place to publicly document defects in order to determine what's common and how common. Is there a link between similar deformities? Just a place to learn in general.




> what are we calling defects? or do you want someone posting every time they have a clutch of spiders or champs?


Let's start off with physical anomalies for now. Morph related or not. If someone can come up with additional requirements, feel free. 

Correct me if I'm wrong here.
All spiders have a wobble. Just different degrees of it. I would think it's pointless to post up every single snake with the spider gene since we already know the wobble is either the spider gene or a gene tightly attached to the spider gene. Same goes for the other wobbling morphs.




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Gouzman (05-08-2014)

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## gsarchie

I will say that I have never seen so much as a hint of wobble in my sppider - ever.  I'll definitely pay close attention to any babies that she has for a wobble.

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## mykee

How will you determine the difference between a true birth defect and human error (incubator spike, etc)?
I think a little more thought needs to go into this before "launch".

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## spankege

I think will be a good way to learn about the potential defects possible in all morphs. It should be human error or natural defect. Just my 0.02. 
Cody

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## satomi325

> How will you determine the difference between a true birth defect and human error (incubator spike, etc)?
> I think a little more thought needs to go into this before "launch".


Both natural and human error defects are important to document. If documenting all the human error related defects, we could possibly rule out inheritance for those certain traits. And it could possibly be used to improve incubation methods to avoid such error. Just state the defect reasoning in your post.




> 3) Possible reasoning for the defect (i.e. random defect, incubation temperature drop/spike, affiliated with morph, etc. etc.).




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## mykee

> Both natural and human error defects are important to document.


You can mess up ANY morph if you screw with the temps.  Totally useless IMO.
As for learning from someone else errors in incubation; keep your incubator between 87-90.
Problem solved.

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## satomi325

> You can mess up ANY morph if you screw with the temps.  Totally useless IMO.
> As for learning from someone else errors in incubation.


It's not pointless. If we can weed out what's genetic and what's actual temperature based, I find that rather informative. 

And as for improving incubation. Well, clearly there are folks who are still getting incubation based defects....

Either way, I wanted a thread to document any sort of anomaly....


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- - - Updated - - -

Black Pastel
Defect: Kinked spine, eyeless, deformed jaw, fused body.
No known incubation errors. It could just be a random defect.
The parents were a Black Pewter Butter to a Normal.

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_Flikky_ (10-12-2013),_meowmeowkazoo_ (08-26-2012)

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## gsarchie

Nikki - It amazes me that snakes that are that badly deformed even make it all the way through incubation.  Crazy.

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## Valentine Pirate

I think it's a good idea. Though I do worry that there may be fluctuations in incubation temperatures we may not know about. I'm crazy about checking temps, I'll do it to pass the time (go through tub to tub, etc) but there's no way for me to know if it changed at any point between. And being gone for a whole work day means that there's a 10 hour period where I'm not able to know.

Does anyone know of an app or program that could remotely check a thermometer you have at home? Or maybe just records temperature fluctuations during the day? I think that information would go a long way in this type of a situation

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## angllady2

Well, you guys know I'm going to add my experience to this thread.

First up is Athena.  My adult normal female.  She was born eyeless, and there was another hatchling in her clutch that had a deformed jaw.  I do not know if that one survived.  There were I believe two or three other hatchlings in the clutch that were normal, and Pat and I believe this defects may have been caused by an incubation issue.  Athena eats well, shed and grows normally, and is very healthy.  And just because I can, here is her pic.


Next up is a clutch of my own babies.  I had two fires that were born eyeless, one normal born with one eye, and one normal with a deformed lower jaw, this baby also does not appear to have a tongue.  This was caused by a known incubation issue.  My incubator malfunctioned about 45 days into their incubation, and spiked to 120 before I caught it.  There were other clutches in the incubator as well.  The mojave clutch, which was sitting at about 50 days, showed no ill effects from the temp spike at all.  All 6 babies hatched completely normal.  The multi sire clutch of my husbands was at about day 30, and they all appear to be normal as well.  

Here are a few pictures of the fires and normals that were hatched with minor defects.




I have two clutches still in the incubator.  My pied clutch was only at about day 10 when the spike hit.  Once they emerge, I will know if they have any problems from the incubator spike.  The final clutch was not in the incubator at the time.

Gale

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## gardenfiend138

For all the types of threads that are started on here, this seems like it will serve a more useful purpose than many of them. What is the currently accepted way to humanely dispatch severely deformed snakes?

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_satomi325_ (08-26-2012)

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## John1982

> For all the types of threads that are started on here, this seems like it will serve a more useful purpose than many of them. What is the currently accepted way to humanely dispatch severely deformed snakes?


I believe pithing is the most humane.

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_gardenfiend138_ (08-26-2012)

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## gsarchie

And pithing is what, exactly?

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## Solarsoldier001

Via wiki
Pithing /pɪθɪŋ/ is a slaughtering technique in which the brain of the animal is destroyed by a tool called a pithing cane or rod, which is inserted into the hole which is created by captive bolt stunning. Trained slaughtermen will be experienced in the use of captive bolt weapons. After stunning, the rod is inserted into the stunning hole and pushed to its full length, the rod then remains locked in the hole and is disposed of with the animal. Pithing destroys the spinal cord, thus killing the animal, and also may reduce the reflex kicking which occurs at stunning, and so contribute to the safety of the casualty slaughterman. This method is also used when dealing with diseased animals in the case of epidemic or notifiable disease. Pithing is viewed as a humane way of killing an animal that is going to be slaughtered or destroyed for disease control or humane reasons, for example an animal which is severely injured in an accident. When animals must be killed humanely on farm for disease control purposes or in an emergency situation, disposable pithing rods allow the slaughterman to adopt best practice. They ensure humane slaughter, seal the stunning hole reducing bleeding and so provide good biosecurity protection and eliminate the need to bleed out the animal. Disposable devices will help to ensure that the rods do not represent a risk of disease spread, and that they remain with the animal when it is disposed. In the case of outbreak of notifiable or epidemic disease, government agencies and welfare organisations may develop contingency plans. "Planned stocking" may be necessary to ensure that rods are available at short notice in the event of a disease outbreak.



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## mykee

I toss them in the freezer.

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## satomi325

> I toss them in the freezer.


 The other poster asked for a humane method of euthanasia. Freezing is not one of them. It's one of the most cruel euthanasia practices for reptiles or any animal for the matter....

 Instantaneous brain destruction should be used when putting down a snake at home. If taken to a vet, they will either do an overdose of anesthesia or cardiac puncture to the heart if veins cannot be located.





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## FireStorm

I think there is another piece of info that could be useful. I'd like to know, if there was a problem during incubation, at what point during the incubation did the problem occur?

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## elbee

I think that information such as this is extremely useful. While no one wants there to be temperature issues with their incubation, knowing what developmental stage the eggs are in at the time of a temp spike etc. Can help us prepare for possible issues with hatchlings. This being said, some things are genetic, some are just anomalies. Thanks everyone for sharing their experiences. As someone who plans on breeding in the next few years, these are helpful topics.

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Gouzman (05-08-2014)

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## TaylorMade

IMO, as a future breeder this information is very helpful & definately important! Thank you for starting this thread!  :Good Job:

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## All Balled Up

We have had our own issues in the past with deformed snakes. I feel like it's likely due to incubation problems, but everytime we've checked our temperatures have been stable. Our first year we had a piebald that never formed properly and had to be culled. this year we have had a few snakes dead in the egg, but fully formed, and a few caramels with major deformations that had to be culled. We also just hatched a piebald clutch without eyes. The majority of the snakes we've bred have been 100% healthy and beautiful, but every year we do have something pop up. I think it's time for us to get a new incubator, or modify the one we have. Anyway, here's pictures of the two one-eyed pieds we just got. We'll have pictures of the rest of the clutch on our website when they are out.

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## mykee

From the plethorous amount of reading I've done regarding embryonic development and the breeders I've spoken to over the years, it seems that we can draw a line right down the middle in terms of temp spikes doing damage to eggs:  first 30 days; issues will arise, final 30 days generally fair alright.

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## DavidMundy

> I toss them in the freezer.


I hope you are talking about after they are culled humanely??  :Confused:

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## John1982

Acurite Thermometers have a very useful "Max" and "Min" display so you can see how your eggbox temperatures fare throughout incubation. So long as you check the min/max display daily it's very easy to pinpoint when temperature fluctuations occur to pickup some possibly helpful data for this thread.

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## hypersomniacjoo

i hope i don't have to post to this thread with any of my three clutches, but great thread regardless

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## TJ_Burton

I have first hand experience with what can happen when breeding for super cinnamons and it was covered by The Reptile Report: http://thereptilereport.com/super-ci...eason-why-not/



You can get variations in head/skull deformities including duckbills, mishaped heads, cleft jaws etc.
You can get severe and minor kinking of the spine etc.
You can get eye issues (usually stemming from skull deformity)

Of 5 supers produced in an 8 egg clutch, only 1 came out flawless. 2 were culled due to extreme deformity, and 2 were given away to friends as pets due to being completely unbreedable, but in survivable shape.

Super black pastels and black pastel cinnamons have also run into the same complications according to other breeders, although it hasn't been well documented and the frequency of these complications isn't known.

Taken from my post on reptilescanada.com



> It is important to mention:
> - Incubation was at the standard 88-89.F
> - Parents are unrelated, from different lines originating from seperate breeders
> - There was a minor humidity issue that was resolved early on during incubation
> - This was my first attempt at Super Cinnamons
> 
> Well,
> 
> Unfortunately it looks like I may only have (at most) 1 super cinnamon of the 5 that will be in good enough condition to sell or trade. Two were culled almost immediately following their attempt at exiting the egg (pictures below) and two more are not in the best condition. I have a nice looking paradox with a minor spinal kink, another with an eye that is bulged, and only one seems to be in good condition (although it is still partially in the egg, so that may not be the case). The two Cinnamon and single Normal offspring look absolutely healthy. Incubation was at 89.9F and despite a slight humidity issue that was corrected, completely normal.
> ...

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## MisterKyte

I kind of have to disagree with pithing as a good method for euthanizing a defective BP at home because after being in a physiology class where we had use this technique to cull specimens, it largely seemed ineffective because the vast majority of my peers were either unable to do it, or worse, did it incorrectly and ended up putting the frogs through so much more pain than was unnecessary. Like, I hope this doesn't seem out of line because I'm sure that there are other people who have actually had to put down BPs in this manner and have much more experience with breed snakes than I but after participating in that class, I have to assert that most people do not have the finesse or gut to properly pith a living animal. Not to say, freezing isn't a delightful manner in which to die either but there's much less room for mistake there and it doesn't require as active a role as pithing. I may be wrong but I think the dry ice and cooler method in DIY forum would probably much more effective and arguably more humane to cull a BP.

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PsychD_Student (09-20-2012)

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## satomi325

> I kind of have to disagree with pithing as a good method for euthanizing a defective BP at home because after being in a physiology class where we had use this technique to cull specimens, it largely seemed ineffective because the vast majority of my peers were either unable to do it, or worse, did it incorrectly and ended up putting the frogs through so much more pain than was unnecessary. Like, I hope this doesn't seem out of line because I'm sure that there are other people who have actually had to put down BPs in this manner and have much more experience with breed snakes than I but after participating in that class, I have to assert that most people do not have the finesse or gut to properly pith a living animal. Not to say, freezing isn't a delightful manner in which to die either but there's much less room for mistake there and it doesn't require as active a role as pithing. I may be wrong but I think the dry ice and cooler method in DIY forum would probably much more effective and arguably more humane to cull a BP.


While CO2 and cervical dislocation works great for rodents, it doesn't for reptiles.

Co2 is not a good way to euthanize reptiles. Since they have a slow respiratory rate and metabolism, it would take a very long long time for them to die. Quite agonizing really. Some may not even die because the person doesn't leave them in the Co2 chamber long enough. It takes a mouse roughly 2 minutes to die in a Co2 chamber. I can guarantee it won't take 2 minutes for a snake to die. Overall, not a very effective or efficient method.

Cutting off the head is inhumane because the head is still alive and can feel pain.

Freezing is one of the most inhumane methods to euthanize a snake or any thing for the matter. Freezing is highly painful. It can take hours for a snake to freeze to death. Because they are cold blooded, reptiles do not loose consciousness like mammals do when freezing. Its said they can feel their cells freeze and burst. Putting a hand in ice water for 30 seconds hurts us already. I can't imagine doing that for hours.....

Pithing takes a little more skill, so it can be done incorrectly like you said. But I don't suppose most people are using that specific technique anyway.
The only humane method for snakes you can do at home is instantaneous brain destruction(Crushing or destroying brain tissue ).
And while it is not pretty, smashing, crushing, or chopping the head itself is the most effective way to euthanize a snake yourself. 

If you take a snake to the vet, they will euthanize it with either an overdose of anesthesia or a cardiac puncture to the heart if a vein cannot be located in smaller animals. Don't worry about pain. The snakes are put under anesthesia during the heart puncture procedure. It's illegal to not do so.


And in regards to not having enough guts. I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you how I feel about it.
If there was ever a situation where an animal had to be down on the spot, I wouldn't even hesitate. As a keeper, it is my responsibility to take care of my animals to the best of my ability and make sure they're not suffering. It would be unfair to them if they couldn't live a quality life just because I wanted them to live longer. Sometimes there are situations where you have to euthanize on the spot. Sometimes a suffering animal cannot wait 20+ minutes to drive to the vet to be put down. While it's not a great feeling or experience to euthanize animals, I would suck it up to help my animals.

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## bcr229

Not mine, but another report: http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...rt-season.html

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## kitedemon

I agree pithing is not easy. It is effective if done correctly. I also suggest that C02 not being a good way and freezing a reptile a very poor choice. I feel that if a person is breeding snakes (anything actually) they should be prepared for this possibility. It is a real chance and is likely to occur sooner or later. It is part of the responsibility of breeding if a person cannot bring them selves they should not be breeding at all. 

I think it is different for a pet owner it is not as likely to expect an emergency euthanasia to happen and they can be excused if the choice is die from server trauma over days or a freezer over hours, freezer wins. The first choice is clear, pithing or vet but a pet owner didn't exactly sign up for pithing. A breeder does.

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## kitedemon

Some have heard me speak of my girl Lucy. She is deformed. I do not believe there was an incubation issue but she is a twin (two snakes one egg). It is believed this is the cause of her issues.

The list.
One eye (myself and my vet feel the lump on the top of her head is what remains of the other eye it just moved sideways and was formed out of position, this is a guess)

Exceptionally short or fused tongue ( you can see her tongue move by looking at her throat area however you never see it out of her mouth. This causes her to froth her saliva in her mouth and me grief she looks like she is starting RI, the cultures however come back negative not ri just saliva)

Intestines not completely formed, (X-ray and U/S confirmed) trouble with bloating and gas. 

She has poor aim I feel this is not so much related to the loss of the eye but the loss of tongue. I have seen other blind snakes feed perfectly I believe Gale has said this about her Athena on other occasions no striking issues. lucy has lots she misses frequently. She has the poorest aim of all my snakes and also never changes attitude until you bop her in the nose with the rat then she goes into feeding mode. I don't think she can smell well at all. I suspect this is a bigger issue than the eye. 

On the up side she is super healthy and eats every time and well. She is also the friendliest snake I have ever met in person.

Hosted on Fotki

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## Raven01

I think NERD has a couple videos on lethal gene combo's.  I'll have to re-watch those and see if any of the implicated genes show up more than others with defects.

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## Centexsnakes

Great great thread, as I plan on breeding at some point, really good info!

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## OctagonGecko729

> Not mine, but another report: http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...rt-season.html


Was this lethality the cause of crossing mutations or just random? It wasn't clear to me exactly what this guy paired up.

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## PhoenixGate

> While CO2 and cervical dislocation works great for rodents, it doesn't for reptiles.
> 
> Co2 is not a good way to euthanize reptiles. Since they have a slow respiratory rate and metabolism, it would take a very long long time for them to die. Quite agonizing really. Some may not even die because the person doesn't leave them in the Co2 chamber long enough. It takes a mouse roughly 2 minutes to die in a Co2 chamber. I can guarantee it won't take 2 minutes for a snake to die. Overall, not a very effective or efficient method.
> 
> Cutting off the head is inhumane because the head is still alive and can feel pain.
> 
> Freezing is one of the most inhumane methods to euthanize a snake or any thing for the matter. Freezing is highly painful. It can take hours for a snake to freeze to death. Because they are cold blooded, reptiles do not loose consciousness like mammals do when freezing. Its said they can feel their cells freeze and burst. Putting a hand in ice water for 30 seconds hurts us already. I can't imagine doing that for hours.....
> 
> Pithing takes a little more skill, so it can be done incorrectly like you said. But I don't suppose most people are using that specific technique anyway.
> ...


I'm glad I read through this thread before I ever attempted to breed  ball pythons.  I was aware that euthanasia was a problem, because I knew  of problems like kinking and lethal gene combos, but I thought putting a  snake in the freezer was a human way to euthanasia them.  I'll have to  look at getting a pithing kit when I'm ready to breed.  Would any method  of destroying the brain work?  Such as, if you don't have a pithing kit  available, would a nail gun to the brain work?  I would think not,  since driving a nail through the brain would only destroy a small  portion and death would not be guaranteed.  Satomi, how do you euthanize  your snakes? I agree that waiting to go down to the vet is not always  the most humane thing to do, especially with baby snakes that are so  deformed they are probably in pain the longer they are alive.




> I think NERD has a couple videos on lethal gene combo's.  I'll have to re-watch those and see if any of the implicated genes show up more than others with defects.


Some of the lethal gene combos I know off the top of my head are; champagne crossed with any morph that causes neurological issues such as spider (and I've heard woma can cause wobbling as well) and woma x woma breeding, which is to say that any BP with two woma genes will not live for very long if at all.

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## Wapadi

Last year we had a double het clutch of albino to pied, 4 eggs.  Incubation was fine.  We never noticed a temp spike or power outage.  Eggs pipped on their own at day 57.  Three hatchlings crawled out and were perfect and the last baby never came out.  As for as I could tell he pipped his egg and just died.  He (I never sexed him) had a very small lower jaw and his neck never separated from his belly (I hope that makes sense).  We have been breeding a while now and that was our first defect....

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## grcforce327

Some of you guys crack me up! Get a kingsnake or cobra and move on!

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## pinkham64

Intense thread to read! I've heard of most of issues, but you never hear about the dirty side of it! This is a really great thread!

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## Marissa@MKmorphs

So, I unfortunately have a few additions to make to this thread. 

I have 2 babies that are deformed. They are both from my first clutch ever. It was my super pastel and my lesser bred to a normal. It was a 12 egg clutch, with one boob egg. I have 10 beautiful healthy babies to be proud of!

I incubated at 89, and I had humidity issues in the beginning of incubation but that was quickly fixed. There were no known temperature spikes or drops. 

Unsexed Pastel - this is the deformed baby that was in the boob egg. This baby died in the egg around day 55-57 It is severely kinked and fused. This was the only pastel in the clutch. 





The rest of the clutch was out of the egg. The one remaining egg had not pipped, and the baby was very active. I peeked in the little flap and saw it was missing an eye and the jaw looked a little "off" so I cut a bigger hole at the top of the egg. 

This baby is a normal, so a different father than the pastel from the boob egg, and I won't know more until it is out of the egg. This egg was almost completely vertical, so I am wondering if the face became deformed when it had to developed pressed up against the rest of the body....

Well, it only has one MASSIVE eye, and its face is deformed and twisted kind of to the side. I will let the pictures speak for themselves. 









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## cdavidson9

Great thread Nikki! Hope all is well.

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## Konotashi

> Some of you guys crack me up! Get a kingsnake or cobra and move on!


I wouldn't consider a topic about recording deformed/dead babies and breeders needing to cull them a laughing matter, personally. 

I'll be following this thread. Sad, yet informative and insightful.

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## Marissa@MKmorphs

The second baby that I had posted about didn't end up making it. The baby managed to get out of the egg, but still hadn't absorbed a lot of its yolk, so I moved it to a small deli cup lined with damp paper towels to make a cozy place to finish absorbing it. As of a few hours ago when I checked, the baby was dead. 

Besides the deformed face, missing eye, and enlarged remaining eye, it was heavily kinked. Something to be noted about this animal is that it really resembles that "dinker" lesser that someone had a while back.... I will see if I can find the thread that had it. Here is a youtube video of that lesser dinker that resembles the deformed baby I have.

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## Anya

Whoah, sorry about the losses. Poor little guys never had a chance.  :Sad:  Glad to hear you got 10 healthy ones, though.  :Smile:

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## sharkrocket

> I have first hand experience with what can happen when breeding for super cinnamons and it was covered by The Reptile Report: http://thereptilereport.com/super-ci...eason-why-not/
> 
> 
> 
> You can get variations in head/skull deformities including duckbills, mishaped heads, cleft jaws etc.
> You can get severe and minor kinking of the spine etc.
> You can get eye issues (usually stemming from skull deformity)
> 
> Of 5 supers produced in an 8 egg clutch, only 1 came out flawless. 2 were culled due to extreme deformity, and 2 were given away to friends as pets due to being completely unbreedable, but in survivable shape.
> ...


I would like to hear more about super black pastels from other breeders. We are planning to go for super black pastels in a year or two, and we have our hearts set on an all black snake. I hope to hear about deformities relating to them from others. I am really sorry to hear about your experience TJ, but hopefully it can help others.

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## Rickys_Reptiles

> I toss them in the freezer.


OMG. This is enough of a reason for me to never buy from www.strictlyballs.ca ever. disgusting.  :No:

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_Flikky_ (10-12-2013)

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## bcr229

> OMG. This is enough of a reason for me to never buy from www.strictlyballs.ca ever. disgusting.


Ricky, that is not his web site.  He's .ca in Ontario, Canada.  The .com you linked to is in Iowa, USA.  Different person and business.

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_Rickys_Reptiles_ (06-19-2013)

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## Rickys_Reptiles

> Ricky, that is not his web site.  He's .ca in Ontario, Canada.  The .com you linked to is in Iowa, USA.  Different person and business.


asked a mod to fix it. ty.

Still can't believe it. Who freezes live animals?!?!  :Angered:

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## TJ_Burton

> I would like to hear more about super black pastels from other breeders. We are planning to go for super black pastels in a year or two, and we have our hearts set on an all black snake. I hope to hear about deformities relating to them from others. I am really sorry to hear about your experience TJ, but hopefully it can help others.


I will be the first to say that since my post, I have seen plenty of healthy, perfect looking super cinnamons and cinnamon x black pastels. Mark Mandic was one the breeders who showed me more than a handful of his own hatchlings and he has not (to my knowledge) produced any misshapen or deformed ones. Although I did not see any issues with temp during incubation, I can not say with certainty that there wasn't a day while I was away from my home that the incubator crept up past 90.F although it is unlikely. I would have to assume something went wrong during incubation. I may attempt another Cinny combo x Cinny female in the future and heavily document the incubation process while keeping temps at 88.F instead of the 89.F to 90.F that is typical of most breeders. That should give me a final answer.

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## satomi325

> Still can't believe it. Who freezes live animals?!?!


I agree.
But unfortunately, a lot of people still euthanize reptiles via Freezer. Its an old school method that has been an accepted practice for generations. 

Its only through more recent studies and education that people have learned that it is inhumane, slow, and painful. And sadly a lot of keepers are still ignorant of that.


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_AbsoluteApril_ (12-09-2015),_kitedemon_ (06-19-2013),vankmen. (10-10-2013)

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## kitedemon

Agreed it had ONLY been what since the mid 80s that that has been known to be a very poor option. 30 years, perhaps it is time to update your Vic20 too...


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## sho220

> We all know that birth defects and other issues will be present when producing any kind of animal in large numbers. This is not a thread asking which defect is associated with what morph.
> I wanted to start a thread to document the numbers associated with birth defects.


Please post the following when reporting a defect:
1) Morph - *Unknown
*2) The defect - *1 w/deformed eyes, 1 died in egg
*3) Possible reasoning for the defect - *Possible incubation temp issue
*4) The parental pairing - *Spider Dam x Enchi Sire
*5) Total number of clutches and/or hatchlings you have produced - *Produced one or two clutches a year since '08 w/no previous deformed babies.
*6) Photos - *See below
*7) Any other information that you wish to include. (Maybe post how many defective hatchlings you have produced to date) -* 7 eggs total were laid which resulted in 1 normal, 3 Enchi's, a Stingerbee and the deformed babies. The orange baby hatched out alive but only lived for about 3 days. All other babies were perfectly normal. It was the first clutch for the Enchi Sire and, I believe, 2nd clutch for the Spider Dam.

*This is taken from my original post on 7/17/12 when they hatched...

"I think what may have affected these two guys was a temp problem that happened a few weeks prior to their pipping date. We had a bad storm move through several weeks ago (anyone on the East Coast knows the storm I'm referring to) and we lost power for about 20 hours. I thought I had maintained a fairly consistent temp, but apparently not. Once the temp in the incubator started dropping, I began trying to use some heat packs to bring it back up and maintain a reasonably constant temp. I thought I did fairly well, but I guess not. I'm thinking my Accurites weren't a big help as they both vary about 5 degrees. I usually rely on my Herpstat for the most accurate reading, but without power I had to rely on the Accurites.

I'm hoping these last two pull through. The orange guy/girl left a pretty sizable yolk sack behind so it may be touch and go until first feeding. The other still shows no signs of coming out. I guess at this point all I can do is wait. Also hoping my other clutch hasn't been affected. They are about two weeks away from hatch date and all eggs look great. Still big and plump but starting to dimple a tiny bit. Fingers crossed for them!"

Second clutch I mentioned above hatched w/no problems. Same Enchi Sire also.

This guy only lasted 3 days...







Still in the egg...




This is the other baby that died in the egg...

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_satomi325_ (06-19-2013)

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## Coleslaw007

I just had my first experience with a deformity. Pairing was fire to pinstripe. 8 eggs. Clutch was incubated at 89 degrees and began to pip on day 55, 7 had fully hatched by the 3rd day and one egg was unpipped. I slit it a bit and the baby inside looked... odd. I gave it one more day and them opened it more, it was weirdly fused. I was prepared to euthanize by destroying the brain matter but when I actually removed it I found it had died in the egg. Here are the pics,







It's spine was very kinked, it went in a zigzag like pattern.

All the rest of the clutch seem perfectly healthy.

I did not have any temperature spikes or drops so far as I'm aware. The clutch that hatched before this one was fine and I'll watch the clutch due to hatch later this month.

Edit: the dam was a breeding loan from a friend so I'm not sure I'll be breeding her again. This was her first clutch. Sire has fathered many clutches, this is my second clutch ever so far and he sired both.

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_Flikky_ (10-12-2013)

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## Mephibosheth1

Are these caused by environmental factors, or are they from poor genetics?? (or both??)

I know most "birth defects" (usually just runty size) in my mice are caused by genetic factors, and only a handful from poor diet/maternal neglect; I would imagine it is different in herps??

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## Coleslaw007

I believe both, it can be one or the other or both at once.

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## Raven01

Ignore me just subbing this thread so I don't lose it.

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## mykee

Who freezes defective, deformed babies?  Most people.  All of the big breeders I'm friends with and most mid-range breeders as well.  
I'm kind of a hands-off breeder when it comes to the more delicate issues involving ball pythons (namely death) as I am quite hands on with palpating females, aspirating eggs that are bound, etc. but for some reason, crushing the skull of a living creature is just something I can't get the courage to do.
Ricky, you are more than entitled to your opinion, but having only been in the hobby for a few short years, you really haven't experienced most issues that arise from having produced a number of babies and having to deal with their issues.
I also find it quite disheartening that I am directed to this thread to find you bad-mouthing me about my practices.
It seems we were the best of friends last fall when you were calling me asking for advice for the (presumably bacterial) respiratory infections that were running through your collection and now you talk poop about me?  Oh well.
I glad to hear that you stocked up on a dozen bottles of F10; I've read that it is great for eliminating the symptoms of non-bacterial respiratory infections.
I hope you've finally got that under control without too many losses.
Take care.

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_Ashley96_ (09-02-2016)

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## Jay_Bunny

My kink/deformity experiences...

*Morph*: 50% Possible Het. Pied Male
*Defect*: Kink in neck
*Possible Reason for Defect*: Unknown, however the rest of the clutch died during incubation at random. (5 fertile eggs total in clutch)
*Parental Pairing*: 100% Het. Pied Male X Normal Female
*Total # of Clutches Produced*: First Clutch (I have produced 8 clutches total as of this 2013 season including this one)



*Additional Info*: This was a 2009 clutch. All fertile eggs, except one, died during incubation. Because of the kink in the hatchling's neck, he could not eat and passed away 3 months later. I have pictures of the deceased babies as well. The kink does not look severe, however it was impossible for him to swallow food. 
---------------------------------------------------

*Morph*: 50% Possible Het. Pied (unknown gender)
*Defect*: Kinking
*Possible Reason for Defect*: Unknown. Incubation was perfect, however, this offspring shares a father with the above hatchling. We think there may have been a genetic issue. The father passed away of unknown causes in 2012. 
*Parental Pairing*: 100% Het. Pied Male X Normal Female
*Total # of Clutches Produced*: Sixth Clutch (I have produced 8 clutches total as of this 2013 season including this one)



*Additional Info*: This was a 2012 clutch. The other two hatchlings from this clutch survived. One had a slight kink in her tail but she eats and defecates normally. The other sibling was completely healthy with no kinks.
---------------------------------------------------

*Morph*: Pinstripe
*Defect*: Severe Kinking, Fused bodies
*Possible Reason for Defect*: Dehydration of eggs part way through incubation. I don't recall how far along they were. 
*Parental Pairing*: Dinker Male X Pinstripe Female
*Total # of Clutches Produced*: Seventh Clutch (I have produced 8 clutches total as of this 2013 season including this one)




*Additional Info*: This is a 2013 Clutch. Five eggs total with 4 pinstripes and 1 normal. Still waiting on the normal to hatch, but so far it appears healthy. All pinstripes have passed away prior to hatching. The pinstripe mother has produced healthy offspring in the past. This was the father's first clutch. 
---------------------------------------------------

*Morph*: Spider
*Defect*: Swollen Head, Passed away during incubation
*Possible Reason for Defect*: Unknown. Its siblings incubated full term and I am awaiting their hatching.
*Parental Pairing*: Spider Male X Normal Female
*Total # of Clutches Produced*: 8th Clutch (I have produced 8 clutches total as of this 2013 season including this one)



*Additional Info*: This is a 2013 Clutch. So far the siblings seem healthy. Still waiting for 3 normals from this clutch to hatch. One spider male hatched and appears healthy.

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_Ashley96_ (09-02-2016),_satomi325_ (07-11-2013)

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## Mephibosheth1

Are deformities like this more common with certain morphs??

My snake that I hope to breed one day is a Het For Carmel...is there a high percentage of this kind if stuff happening to the babies??

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## Jay_Bunny

> Are deformities like this more common with certain morphs??
> 
> My snake that I hope to breed one day is a Het For Carmel...is there a high percentage of this kind if stuff happening to the babies??


There are certain morphs that are prone to deformities. Caramels, if I remember correctly are likely to get kinks.

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## CaitJaye

This thread is a huge help! I have a het genetic stripe spider who I eventually plan on breeding. This really gives me insight on potential problems and complications. And also on choosing his mate. I would hate to have a bad clutch because of a lethal combination.

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## vankmen.

This is a caramel girl that was given to me as a hatchling. She has never had issues of any kind. She eats ,poops and sheds with no problems and is the only bp I've ever had that that hasn't missed a meal. I would never even think of breeding her cause her kinks but she is an awesome pet. Not sure how other people feel about it but I couldn't let her be frozen.

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_AJs Snake House_ (10-10-2013),_AlexisFitzy_ (10-10-2013),_Anya_ (10-10-2013),_Ashley96_ (09-02-2016),_BHReptiles_ (10-10-2013),C.Marie (05-10-2018),_Flikky_ (10-12-2013),_meowmeowkazoo_ (02-20-2014),_satomi325_ (10-10-2013),thejenius77 (01-13-2014),Zoodledoodle (10-10-2013)

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## AlexisFitzy

> This is a caramel girl that was given to me as a hatchling. She has never had issues of any kind. She eats ,poops and sheds with no problems and is the only bp I've ever had that that hasn't missed a meal. I would never even think of breeding her cause her kinks but she is an awesome pet. Not sure how other people feel about it but I couldn't let her be frozen.


I feel the same way. I could never put any animal in a freezer to die. It makes me so sad to even think about it. I'm glad your beautiful girl wasn't frozen. 


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_Ashley96_ (09-02-2016)

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## Anya

Aww. What a beautiful girl. <3 If she's doing that well, there would be no reason to put her down.

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## loonunit

_Morph:_ Double het VPI snow

_Deformity:_ Badly kinked neck, slightly underformed lower jaw.

_What happened:_ The air conditioning failed while we were out of town at a wedding, the house got up to 100F for a couple days.

_Pairing:_ VPI axanthic het albino (dame) to albino poss het VPI axanthic (sire).

_Total number of clutches and/or hatchlings you have produced:_ 9 clutches to date, ~40 live hatchlings total. This was a bad year with the air conditioning failure, I lost 4 eggs from 4 clutches. Last year I only lost 1 egg from 4 clutches.

_Photos:_ Here's a video of the kinked male trying to move around. That's his mean sister guarding him. (She totally bit me in between the clips, too.)







His lower jaw might also be slightly under-formed. It's hard to see in the photo, but his upper teeth sort of stick out on one side.



_Other comments:_ This was one of two clutches laid during the air conditioning outage. The black pastel clutch made it through relatively unscatched (one egg died, the rest of the babies hatched healthy and very fat). But the VPI snow clutch was a disaster. Two of the VPI snow eggs developed mold and eventually died a week before hatching. Both contained extremely kinked hatchlings, one of which was the only albino in the clutch. The other two eggs survived. Those contained a male and female hets. The female is apparently healthy (if super bitey). The male is much less bitey, but he has a terrible neck kink and slightly deformed jaw. He has difficulty moving from point A to point B, and I've been advised to euthanize him. I'm holding out to see if he's able to eat or not.

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_satomi325_ (10-11-2013)

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## satomi325

Wow. Poor little guy. :Sad:  He and the sister are very attractive looking snakes. It hurt my neck watching him try to right himself into that first upright position.
Judging by the angle and position of his kink, I'm not sure how he can pass food. It would have to be undersized feeders in my opinion. 

Good luck with him. Some snakes surprise us sometimes. 

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## loonunit

Yeah, it's not the worst kink, but it's in a terrible place. If it were lower down, I think he'd have no problem? As it is, he needs help getting his sheds started, and I had to switch to a shallower water bowl because he got stuck in his while trying to take a drink. I don't think he'd make it in the wild. I'm not even sure he would have successfully pipped if I hadn't cut his egg the day before.

My current plan is to assist feed f/t pinkies. I'm still worried he'll choke or even snap his neck when he tries to swallow. And he has a hard time with striking--he's not as amped up as his sister, but he has tried to chomp me a couple times. But he doesn't have any AIM, you know? He can't strike forward, just like he can't slither nose-forward. So he just sort of snaps his jaws in random directions and never connects. I might have to assist feed him every time.

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## hotelvoodoo

My first clutch ever, the first egg to hatch produced a little male pinstripe with a caved in stomach. He died within an hour of hatching out of the egg. I was heartbroken. His siblings all hatched out just fine though.

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## rafacacho

In my opinion if you find this post useful, participe, if you dont find it useful avoid it. 

I had one case of kinked hatchlings.
A pastel male. Dad produced before a lot of babies, it was moms first clutch. The egg look odd from the beggining, was never plump. 
There was a problem with the light, it was out for 24hs, and they were at 25C for that period, i dont think it was the problem. There were three clutches in the incubator, one on day 50, no issues, this one was about day 30, with this pastel, and another one that is about to hatch anytime....we will see with that one....



Some scales are fused  but is not bad....

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_satomi325_ (01-13-2014)

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## AJs Snake House

This egg died around 45 days.
Kinked baby with a portion of fused scales.   :Sad: 
Pastel x spinnerblast pairing


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Badgemash (01-21-2014)

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## Snatantula

I see alot of pastels in here as a new breeder with the notes ive been gathering i see Champagnes, Spiders and now pastels. Other then incubatio nand humidity malfunctions  would sound or vibrations have any effect on deffects like if some1 lived in a trailor, not me tho  im a basement breeder

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## Marissa@MKmorphs

This egg died on day 58. My female spotnose had a parthenogenisis clutch, and this baby seemed to be relatively healthy except for the face and tail.





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## the_rotten1

Sorry to necro this thread, but as long as people breed snakes I think it will continue to be relevant. I also want to share my story just to get it off my mind. This was my first clutch of BP eggs and I had a thermostat malfunction about a week after they were laid. Two eggs went bad the following week. The rest went full term, but this one never hatched and died in egg. This is what it looked like after I took it out:



1) Morph: Normal
2) The defect: kinked spine and died in egg
3) Possible reasoning for the defect: Temp drop. During the thermostat malfunction it went down to the mid 70s. Not sure exactly how long, but probably 24 hours or more.
4) The parental pairing: Leopard het Pied x Spider het Pied
5) Total number of clutches and/or hatchlings you have produced: This was my first.
6) Photos: above
7) Any other information that you wish to include: Five clutchmates came out fine. This was the only normal in the clutch. The egg this snake came out of was attached to and half underneath another egg. 

The largest egg in the clutch was originally on top of both this egg and one other. A healthy female spider hatched out of the egg on top, but I had problems with both eggs on bottom. One went bad after the temp drop and has to be removed because it grew fungus. The other contained this kinked baby normal. Maybe their positioning made them more susceptible to the temp drop?

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C.Marie (05-10-2018),dr del (05-10-2018)

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