# Site General > General Herp > Herp Broadcast >  Terrible and Avoidable Tragedy

## Kayak Steve

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-po...en-killed-man/

My heart goes out to this young man's family. Who sold or gave this teenager a cobra?

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## Gerardo

That's messed up. Hope they find that cobra soon. The longer it's out there the more people will freak out about how venomous snakes are running around all over the place.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-po...en-killed-man/
> 
> My heart goes out to this young man's family. Who sold or gave this teenager a cobra?


Well he worked at a pet shop, he was also of legal age.

Now did he have proper training, was he properly mentored to handle hots? Obviously not! Did the seller know that? Maybe, maybe not.

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KMG (07-18-2015)

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## Daniel.michelle

Its sad that this sort of thing needs to make the national news etc...  i feel bad for the family and the 18 year old.  Im curious as to how the kid got bit in the first place, like how was the snake being transported.

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## Reinz

How do they know for sure that the snake is out of the car?  Any witnesses?

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Citrus (07-16-2015),Tsanford (07-16-2015)

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## EL-Ziggy

This is exactly why I believe proper training and licensing should be required for keeping hots. Any 18 year old kid with $200 should NOT be able to just go online and buy such a dangerous animal. This was a very senseless tragedy.

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Creepy Alien (07-16-2015),_Marrissa_ (07-17-2015)

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## DVirginiana

I'm generally against regulations on what people can have as pets, but in cases of animals that can be fatal even when contained and handled properly (big cats, venomous snakes, ect.) I think the licensing should be stricter so that only qualified people who are devoted to doing things right can get their hands on them and if something goes wrong they would be the only ones endangered by it.

Just for clarification, I don't really consider big constrictors to be in that group.  They're not going to do fatal damage in two seconds, and if they could overpower and kill someone there should really be another person around when that animal is being handled.

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Creepy Alien (07-16-2015),_Marrissa_ (07-17-2015)

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## EL-Ziggy

> I'm generally against regulations on what people can have as pets, but in cases of animals that can be fatal even when contained and handled properly (big cats, venomous snakes, ect.) I think the licensing should be stricter so that only qualified people who are devoted to doing things right can get their hands on them and if something goes wrong they would be the only ones endangered by it.
> 
> Just for clarification, I don't really consider big constrictors to be in that group.  They're not going to do fatal damage in two seconds, and if they could overpower and kill someone there should really be another person around when that animal is being handled.


I agree. I used to include giants in the need for regulations category but I've amplified my position.

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## Tsanford

> How do they know for sure that the snake is out of the car?  Any witnesses?


The Snake probably went up under the dash when they were looking for it. I doubt this guy had his windows down while transporting his animals in 95+ degree weather.

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## bcr229

> The Snake probably went up under the dash when they were looking for it. I doubt this guy had his windows down while transporting his animals in 95+ degree weather.


Unless he had no A/C.  But I agree the snake is likely still in the car somewhere.  Personally I wouldn't want to go searching for it though.

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## tbowman

https://www.facebook.com/tim.cole.94...892563?fref=nf




> "As a lot of you may have heard by now, there was a death that may have resulted from a cobra bite in the Austin area.
> I was brought in to assist with the situation along with caring for the animals that were found in the car.
> It was a long night removing contained animals and searching the vehicle for any animals that may have gotten loose in the vehicle.
> The cobra was not found. It was a Monacle Suphan Cobra about 3 ft. long.
> In my opinion there are some indications that Grant Thompson may have met up with someone last night and sold the Monacle Cobra he owned.
> After discussing this with the Detective on the case, he agreed that it would be ok to reach out to the venomous community to see if some actually has this snake in their possession.
> I don't need to point out the worst case scenario would be an escaped cobra which will be made public shortly.
> It would be a great sigh of relief if someone stepped up and said they had possession of this snake even if they lived in an area where possession was illegal.
> I would even offer to be the recipient of the snake if someone wants to remain anonymous.
> ...

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_Marrissa_ (07-17-2015)

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## C2tcardin

It was found dead this morning along the highway.

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## Capps14e

> It was found dead this morning along the highway.



That's a shame. I was hoping it could be captured and put in the care of someone more qualified.

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## distaff

> That's a shame. I was hoping it could be captured and put in the care of someone more qualified.


Yes, a shame.

As far as regulations, people do stupid things all the time, regardless of laws.  
Do we really want a nanny state?

This man only managed to kill himself, and the cobra is no longer a danger to others.

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## Jabberwocky Dragons

> This is exactly why I believe proper training and licensing should be required for keeping hots. Any 18 year old kid with $200 should NOT be able to just go online and buy such a dangerous animal. This was a very senseless tragedy.





> I'm generally against regulations on what people can have as pets, but in cases of animals that can be fatal even when contained and handled properly (big cats, venomous snakes, ect.) I think the licensing should be stricter so that only qualified people who are devoted to doing things right can get their hands on them and if something goes wrong they would be the only ones endangered by it.
> 
> Just for clarification, I don't really consider big constrictors to be in that group.  They're not going to do fatal damage in two seconds, and if they could overpower and kill someone there should really be another person around when that animal is being handled.





> I agree. I used to include giants in the need for regulations category but I've amplified my position.


While I understand where you are coming from, understand that supporting regulations/bans on any animals gives support to banning ALL animals including ball pythons. There is a concerted movement out there to ban virtually every type of animal from ownership. They see no difference between a ball python and rectic. Or your corn snake and a tiger. This is already policy in many cities around the country. We can see this "mission creep" taking effect with the Lacey Act as more and more animals are added.

Exotic animal owners can stand strong together or be divided and conquered as special interest after special interest gets taken down. Regulations is a meaningless term that very quickly becomes an outright ban. Right now there are some exotic animals whose "regulations" entails being a licensed member of the AZA. This is a essentially a ban on private ownership. Don't give HSUS, PETA, and their ilk more ammunition to take your animals away.

Colin Weaver of East Coast Reptile Breeders gives an excellent explanation of this tactic here:
http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2011/11...k-be-a-lesson/

Probably the best two paragraphs of the article but go read it!



> I know how the end of reptile ownership is going to happen.  If we continue on our current path it will mirror what happened in the UK.  The voices of opposition in the UK screamed, you cant legislate a madman, meaning that a ban on firearms would not stop the next massacre from happening.  If someone wants to get a gun and go on a shooting spree it will happen.  No law is going to prevent that.  My screams as a reptile owner have been of a similar vein.  I oppose any legal limitations on the rights of responsible pet owners.  No matter how responsible a pet owner I am there will always be someone out there who is not.  That person will do something stupid and my rights will be removed as a result.
> 
> But why?  Why do the actions of a few lead to restrictions on the many?  The answer is simple:  Legislation is a bludgeon tool.  It lacks finesse.  Laws have not, can not and will not deal with subtlety and nuance.  They are a widely cast net that frequently catches huge numbers of unintended victims.  I have already heard it said.  Our inspectors are not trained tell the difference between a Burmese python and a Boa Constrictor so the most simple course of action is to ban them both.  If thats the case then how would a local law enforcement official tell the difference between a blood python and a burmese python?  Simple: He cant.  Well, we better ban blood pythons too just to be safe.  And when the time comes to ban ball pythons you can rest assured that Angolan pythons will be thrown out with them.  They look too similar.  And so it will happen; our compartmentalized herpetocultural community will fall in small group after small group.  And each group will remain silent as the others are attacked.  It will probably take the next decade or two to happen but the writing is on the wall.  The anti-pet movement is more than ready to wait us out and I have not seen evidence of the community having the stomach for a long fight.

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*bcr229* (07-17-2015),_Marrissa_ (07-17-2015),Stewart_Reptiles (07-17-2015)

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## tbowman

I think there is a big difference between a realistic and minimalistic  nationwide permit system for venomous and perhaps a separate system for large constrictors, and the slippery slope of banning all of our pets. 

The state of Florida is a prime example, they've had a proper permit system in place for some time now. 

If the responsible owners have no way to differentiate themselves from the people who are doing it wrong, I believe it will be a lot easier for them to get rid of them all.

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_EL-Ziggy_ (07-17-2015)

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## Jabberwocky Dragons

> I think there is a big difference between a realistic and minimalistic  nationwide permit system for venomous and perhaps a separate system for large constrictors, and the slippery slope of banning all of our pets.


Who is calling for a realistic and minimalist permit system? I see groups trying to ban all exotic pets, including reptiles, and they are having success at the local, state, and federal levels. This isn't some tinfoil hat conspiracy theory... this is real and it is happening. They will smile, shake your hand on a minimalist system, and then will push for more the second it's in place.




> The state of Florida is a prime example, they've had a proper permit system in place for some time now.


I may be mistaken but wasn't one of the prime reasons for the Myrtle Beach show starting because FL was going to make it impossible to have hots at Daytona? I may be wrong on that but it's what I recall through the grapevine years ago. Regardless, FL isn't exactly the poster child for exotic animal friendly policies.




> If the responsible owners have no way to differentiate themselves from the people who are doing it wrong, I believe it will be a lot easier for them to get rid of them all.


I have the perfect way to differentiate between responsible owners and the people who are doing it wrong. It won't take any additional regulations and will have a profound effect on those who are behaving irresponsibly. It's called charging such people with public endangerment, involuntary homicide, assault, etc. when such an action is called for. It's the exact same system used for dog and livestock owners who are held accountable if their animals cause injury or death. Prison and/or loss of your house depending on the level of negligence will differentiate between owners real quick.

I don't have the numbers but I'm quite sure a significantly greater number of people are killed or injured by just pitbulls than by all captive exotics combined every year in America... do we need a nationwide permit system for pitbull ownership or is it enough to hold irresponsible pitbull owners accountable when injuries occur?

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## tbowman

> Who is calling for a realistic and minimalist permit system?


I've seen many respectable hot keepers recommend it. Such as Al Coritz and If I recall correctly Jim Harrison. It's also been brought up by a lot of Large Constrictor keepers.




> I see groups trying to ban all exotic pets, including reptiles, and they are having success at the local, state, and federal levels. This isn't some tinfoil hat conspiracy theory... this is real and it is happening. They will smile, shake your hand on a minimalist system, and then will push for more the second it's in place.


Just because I don't agree with what you perceive to be the solution, does *NOT* mean I am unaware of the current campaigns being driven by Animal Rights groups and other organizations who have been trying for some time to get rid of us.

When has a realistic system ever been in place? From my point of view, a *realistic* permit system for these types of animals would only make it more difficult to pass further legislation against them.





> I have the perfect way to differentiate between responsible owners and the people who are doing it wrong. It won't take any additional regulations and will have a profound effect on those who are behaving irresponsibly. It's called charging such people with public endangerment, involuntary homicide, assault, etc. when such an action is called for. It's the exact same system used for dog and livestock owners who are held accountable if their animals cause injury or death. Prison and/or loss of your house depending on the level of negligence will differentiate between owners real quick.
> 
> I don't have the numbers but I'm quite sure a significantly greater number of people are killed or injured by just pitbulls than by all captive exotics combined every year in America... do we need a nationwide permit system for pitbull ownership or is it enough to hold irresponsible pitbull owners accountable when injuries occur?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-daughter.html


Nothing is going to stop Animal Rights Groups from proposing legislation. It will be harder for them to be turned into law with some legislation already in place on certain species.

I don't agree that we should _have_ to have a permit system in place for any of these animals, but that's the world we live in. 

PitBulls are still mammals, and as such they are viewed by the general populous in a completely different light than any of our reptiles. 

If we did everything the same for mammals as we do for reptiles, millions of people wouldn't be letting their cats out every night, we'd have feral cat roundups, and it'd be a federal offense to transport them across state lines.

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## tbowman

Prior to 2012 Ohio had very relaxed laws regarding exotics.

In 2011 this happened

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskin...ty_Animal_Farm

This was signed into law June 2012

http://www.agri.ohio.gov/TopNews/Dan...WildAnimalAct/

If I recall correctly USARK was very involved in this case and lost. Although I do believe the initial proposal was much more radical than what it ended up actually being.

There is a direct correlation between these types of events and restrictive legislation.

We have to do more than strictly oppose all legislation. We also have to fight to make sure anything that is introduced is realistic and achievable by the responsible keeper.

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## Megg

> That's a shame. I was hoping it could be captured and put in the care of someone more qualified.


X2, it is a real shame. I was also hoping it would be caught and placed in a zoo, or some other facility equipped to care for it.


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## Kayak Steve

By singling out "PitBulls" you are playing right into the "Ban It!" crowd's hands. All dogs can bite and not all dog owners are responsible people. To single out a breed is to let the ban it crowd stick their foot in the door. First it's Pits then Rottys then Chows, and so on. Like Ron White said "You can't fix stupid" and no matter how many responsible people there are the irresponsible folks will always be with us. The town that I live in makes you buy a dog license every year but they don't check whether or not my dog is trained or cared for properly, only if they have had their shots. That is why licensing pet owners, at least in NJ, is a joke. A lousy owner's licensed dog might tear off your arm but at least you won't get rabies. It is the same for reptiles, to a large number of people a snake is a snake and they are all dangerous and people who like them are nuts. And then something like this horrific incident happens and it fuels the fires of the ban it crowd.

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## distaff

> By singling out "PitBulls" you are playing right into the "Ban It!" crowd's hands. All dogs can bite and not all dog owners are responsible people. To single out a breed is to let the ban it crowd stick their foot in the door. First it's Pits then Rottys then Chows, and so on. Like Ron White said "You can't fix stupid" and no matter how many responsible people there are the irresponsible folks will always be with us. The town that I live in makes you buy a dog license every year but they don't check whether or not my dog is trained or cared for properly, only if they have had their shots. That is why licensing pet owners, at least in NJ, is a joke. A lousy owner's licensed dog might tear off your arm but at least you won't get rabies. It is the same for reptiles, to a large number of people a snake is a snake and they are all dangerous and people who like them are nuts. And then something like this horrific incident happens and it fuels the fires of the ban it crowd.


The *good* thing about pit bulls, is that for the most part, as we recognise them today, they are not really a breed.  The few actual owners of PAPERED American Pit Bull Terriers and Staffordshire Terriers aren't usually the problem owners.  Leglislation on this gets into the weeds fast once the authorities realize they are trying to come up with a ban for a motley collection of mutts bred for short hair, stocky bodies, and heavy boned wide-jawed heads, descended from a diverse variety of breeds.  The only thing those problem dogs have in common with each other would be the low-life $#!%-heads they're stuck with.  

I agree, you can't fix stupid.
Liscensing is about revenue and control, not safety.

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## Snake Judy

I think it would be pretty reasonable for it to be illegal to sell deadly animals to someone who isn't old enough to buy liquor.

A licensing system for owning any highly venomous reptile makes sense to me. It benefits the animals by ensuring that they're only placed into the hands of people who are educated and dedicated enough to pursue keeping them in the first place. I kind of feel the same way about giant constrictors, too. Not because they're particularly dangerous, but because they are "advanced" exotics and there are so many people who are able to get their hands on them without knowing the faintest thing about how to properly keep them.

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## bcr229

Texas already requires a license to own venomous snakes and the man who died had one according to this article:

http://www.khou.com/story/news/local...dead/30283715/

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KMG (07-18-2015)

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## Marrissa

Accidents happen even if you're an experienced individual. Those that decide to own hots know full well they could die should some freak accident happen. It only takes a split second. I feel like it's up to the individual to decide if that's a risk they're willing to take. They just need to make sure their risk does not impose a risk on anyone else. I do like the idea of some kind of way to regulate who can own hots. I think it's fair to require secure locking enclosures, a locked room they're housed in, and apprenticeship for X hours under a knowledgable and safe hot owner. That's something the average person looking to own a hot should do. 

I don't think large constrictors should have this kind of permit system. It's a tough situation. While on one hand I don't want regulations to open the gates to even more regulations and bans, but on the other I feel hots are an animal only really skilled and capable individuals should have. Much like owning a big cat, bear, wolves, etc. Make the permit systems obtainable, and make sure it requires enough effort that some person isn't going to go buy themselves a cobra to look cool for his friends. Putting that time and money to make sure the animals are properly housed and handled should weed out any impulse buys and hopefully cut down on the amount of stories that make the news.

Personally, I really love the look of monocled cobras and gaboons, but I'm not willing to take the risk.

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## EL-Ziggy

> Texas already requires a license to own venomous snakes and the man who died had one according to this article:
> 
> http://www.khou.com/story/news/local...dead/30283715/


Tis true bcr. The article does state that the young man had the necessary permit but it doesn't appear that obtaining the permit requires any formal training or demonstrated proficiency in the handling of venemous snakes. You just have to pay $20 or $60. I think there needs to be much tougher guidelines than that.

https://tpwd.texas.gov/faq/business/...es/index.phtml

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## KMG

At 18 you have some maturing to do but you are not a kid.

You can buy a rifle or shotgun, go to prison, join the military, and own a venomous snake. 

I have a friend that is in his 30's and was given a rattlesnake and now has a few different hots. He has no business owning them but he does. It sounds like this 18 year old had more experience than my friend. I don't see the issue with his age.

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## KMG

> Texas already requires a license to own venomous snakes and the man who died had one according to this article:
> 
> http://www.khou.com/story/news/local...dead/30283715/


That cobra was still just a little guy. I wonder what happened.

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## fLako0aGuiiLaR

I hope this tragedy dont affect the reptile community here in texas.
it would be sad to have reptiles bans :/

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## Marrissa

> I hope this tragedy dont affect the reptile community here in texas.
> it would be sad to have reptiles bans :/


We don't want it to effect any state. You've gotta fight whatever bans/regulations come no matter what state. United front.

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## theoremofgoats

I saw a video yesterday with the animal control guy saying it was hit by a car-I'll post the link if I can find it again.  :Sad:

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## bcr229

There's an update to this story - the death was ruled a suicide:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/13...?intcmp=hplnws

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## gameonpython

I heard that the kid took the cobra and a tarantula from the exotics store he works at. While in his car he purposely "gave" his arm to the cobra in order to kill himself. The guy had history of suicidal ideation. I don't know how but apparently the cobra is dead as well. 


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## StillBP

well if it was a suicide I can only hope that the reptile community does not have to pay for this young mans choices

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