# Site General > General Herp >  The Pine Debate

## Skiploder

For many, many, many years I used kiln dried pine bedding for my snakes.

About 18 months ago, I got a line on Harlan Teklad Aspen and switched to that.  Last week, that supply dried up and I've gone back to pine.

It's cheaper, absorbs crappage better and doesn't mold up as quickly.  After going back to pine I decided that aspen plain sucks.  

I was reflecting on all of the breeders and hobbyists I know that use pine.  The East Bay Vivarium is an example - it's all they use for their snakes.  While  I don't want to "out" anyone in the great Pine Debate, some highly respected people in this hobby use it and have used it for decades.

Since the almighty internet has been up and running, I have read post after post after post condemning pine bedding as "toxic" and "harmful" to snakes.  As much as this claim is made, there is no supporting evidence, no studies and no first hand accounts of how pine is detrimental to snakes.

Or is there?

Two of my oldest snakes spent the majority of their lives on pine - we're talking 15 to 20 year old animals.  I kept so-called delicate species on it - even neonates with no ill-effects.  Most old time herpers used it for years and continue to do so.

So this begas the question - all of you who claim pine is toxic to reptiles, let's get this out here and now.  What is the basis of your claim?  What study are your warnings based on?  Remember, the effects of pine on naked mole rats, burrowing rectal beetles and horseshoe crabs doesn't count.  We're talking specifically about reptiles here.  And please, don't start quoting Melissa Kraplan.  Nothing will render your arguments or viewpoints irrelevant quicker than using her as a basis for an informed opinion.

You also are not allowed to quote an unfounded post by a third party.  It has to be an actual study with actual proof.  And no relating pine to cedar - two different trees.  No one disputes the toxicity or the irritant qualities of cedar.

It's okay if you can't cite a specific study.  If you have first hand experience with the dangers of pine bedding - post them.  Be careful though, proof that pine killed or shortened the lifespan of your animal is needed.

There are too many unfounded claims going around in the snake hobby.  Let's first address the veracity of the popular cry that pine is harmful for reptiles.  

Is it or isn't it harmful?

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_bad-one_ (06-09-2010),_CoolioTiffany_ (06-10-2010),_het.pied_ (06-10-2010),_Hulihzack_ (06-09-2010),_jben_ (06-09-2010),JLC (06-09-2010),_meowmeowkazoo_ (01-04-2012),_muddoc_ (06-09-2010),nahual (06-09-2010)

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## tonkatoyman

Sounds like you already have the answer. I have one question though. Have you in all these years found any scale or skin irritation due to the occasional rosin laden chip rubbing up against the animal?

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## Skiploder

> Sounds like you already have the answer. I have one question though. Have you in all these years found any scale or skin irritation due to the occasional rosin laden chip rubbing up against the animal?


I don't have the answer.  I'm one person with one opinion and one body of experience.  

There are hundreds of people advising against the use of pine bedding - many of whom have never used it.

Maybe they know something I don't.  

....and no - no cases of bedding-induced skin irritation.

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_tonkatoyman_ (06-09-2010)

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## tonkatoyman

> I don't have the answer.  I'm one person with one opinion and one body of experience.  
> 
> There are hundreds of people advising against the use of pine bedding - many of whom have never used it.
> 
> Maybe they know something I don't.  
> 
> ....and no - no cases of bedding-induced skin irritation.


i know you are just one, but that is how it starts. One goes against conventional wisdom, then two and before you know it knowledge is gained. Adam Wysocky and I were talking one day. He told me that Ball Pythons were originally kept in huge containers. People were thought to be cruel if they did any different until one person noticed the animals kept in one corner of their environment...fast forward to today and we keep them in 41qt tubs with a hide and some localized heat...so I know you are just one...

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## muddoc

Skip,
  Excellent post.  While I have not been in the hobby as long as you (I only have about 8 years under my belt currently, in this run, I used to keep many years ago when I was younger, but don't really remember what substrate I was using, although I want to lean toward corn cob bedding), I have steered clear of pine due to the rumors out there.  However, my beliefs are that the kiln drying process dehydrates the wood, and leaves any toxic compenents in a dry state.  This does not allow them to get on the animal from rubbing on it.  

With that said, I think if you were to use plain pine shavings, like we use for our rats, and have used the same shavings in our horse stalls and goat stall.  These shavings are not kiln dried, nor are they processed in any way.  They come fairly wet, and if not stored dry will mold and mildew rather quickly.  I think if you were to use some form of pine shaving that has not been processed, the "wet sap" from the pine could potentially cause some skin issues.  I think that the novice keeper is better suited to staying away from pine, unless they are very diligent about the quality of pine that they select for use.

Great post, and one for much discussion,

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## Kaorte

I personally don't use it and I probably never will simply because I don't like using loose bedding. 

I really don't see much of a problem with the kiln dried pine, its the regular pine I would stay away from. A lot of newbies might not know the difference and buy the wrong thing so it is sometimes better to not even suggest it.

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## Skiploder

> i know you are just one, but that is how it starts. One goes against conventional wisdom, then two and before you know it knowledge is gained. Adam Wysocky and I were talking one day. He told me that Ball Pythons were originally kept in huge containers. People were thought to be cruel if they did any different until one person noticed the animals kept in one corner of their environment...fast forward to today and we keep them in 41qt tubs with a hide and some localized heat...so I know you are just one...



I'm not sure what side is conventional wisdom in this debate - that pine is good or pine is bad.

I will throw this into the mix:

Jon and Owen at the EBV use pine.

Tim Spuckler uses it.

Brian Barczyk uses it.

I can go on and on.  

So is the conventional wisdom the current internet majority opinion (pine bad) or the old (pine good)?

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## tonkatoyman

Based on the heated arguments I have seen on this forum, conventional wisdom is Pine Bad...

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## Skiploder

> I personally don't use it and I probably never will simply because I don't like using loose bedding.


I personally don't like loose bedding either - but what I use for my snakes is a different matter.

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## Skiploder

> Based on the heated arguments I have seen on this forum, conventional wisdom is Pine Bad...


I agree.  Conventional wisdom is pine bad.

But, if BHB came on here and admitted using it, or Third Eye Herp, or someone of that stature, would the CW change?

Right now you have mean old Skippy and cantankerous Wilomn saying that back when they rode their velociraptors to school, pine bedding was all the rage - as was asbestos underwear and eating lead paint.

But would that change if a couple of people more palatable to the masses informed the forum they used it?

Methinks yes.

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_muddoc_ (06-09-2010)

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## tonkatoyman

There are many things the big boys do that for the sake of appearance they will never admit to. This may be one of them, until public opinion changes.

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## SansCera

> they will never admit to.



No need to admit to it. Just watch a single episode of SnakeBytes. Brian is VERY passionate about his animals and I'm sure would not use pine if it harmed his collection. 

I worked for a reptile pet store for ~6 years and we used kiln dried pine shavings for most of the snakes. No problems that I can remember. For snakes that wanted higher humidity we used cypress mulch. 

I personally use paper. For the same reason Kaorte does. I would really like something like shavings that didn't need so much servicing but I can't stand loose bedding all over the place. 

On another note. I really enjoy reading your posts Skip  :Good Job:

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## wilomn

Newbs make mistakes. They buy the wrong heating elements. They get the wrong cages. They purchase inferior equipment. I suppose, given all those possible mistakes just waiting for the freshonthescene herper, we should definitely remove from possibility even the slimmest of chances that one so poorly informed would purchase not only the dreaded pine shaving, but one that has not been properly dried in a kiln. Yes, we should do this .... because....ummmmmm, because they're smart enough to make all the other choices necessary to keep snakes but this one is beyond them? 

That doesn't make sense to me. 

How many of you have seen pine, not for horse stalls, that is still wet enough that it is obvious there was no drying?

I've got one snake, he will be 22 this year. I've kept him on a variety of beddings but 90% of his life has been on pine. I've got another who is going to be 17 in a couple of weeks. Pine. Several others in the 15 to 18 year range. All pine.

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JLC (06-09-2010),_minguss_ (06-09-2010),_tonkatoyman_ (06-09-2010)

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## WingedWolfPsion

I think the reason this started to begin with is that the volatile oils in pine clearly are toxic to rodents--rats and mice kept on pine suffer from increased incidence of respiratory ailments, and generally die at a younger age, showing signs of changes to their internal organs consistent with toxin exposure, such as elevated liver enzymes, as well as increased mortality rates in pups.

Therefore, it was concluded, if these volatile oils can be so harmful to rodents, they probably are not good for snakes either, since snakes tend to have fairly delicate respiratory systems.

But no--I've not heard of an actual study being done on snakes.

However, if true, then one would expect to see a somewhat increased incidence of RIs in snakes on pine, and one would expect them to generally die at a younger age than snakes kept on toxin-free substrates.  The problem is, ball pythons can live for up to 30 years, so what exactly is a 'younger age'?  A person with an old snake that dies may not bother to have it necropsied...and relatively few people have had a ball python for its entire 25 to 30 years of life.

The story of pine is simply one of 'playing it safe'.  Something proven harmful and toxic to other animals is best avoided until studies are done that prove it safe for snakes.  There is no reason to consider it safe until proven otherwise when it clearly kills rats.  It's cheaper, yes--but the bottom line of an extra few years of life for a python is worth more to a breeder than the bit of extra savings from using pine over aspen--even if you remove the ethical considerations entirely.

Or, to put it more simply, do you want to trust your female coral glow pied to a bedding that causes rats to wheeze and snuffle and die at half their usual lifespan?

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_minguss_ (06-09-2010)

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## Freakie_frog

> Or, to put it more simply, do you want to trust your female coral glow pied to a bedding that causes rats to wheeze and snuffle and die at half their usual lifespan?


If I had Skips experience and years of successfully doing so then sure why not..After all regardless of the paint job its still a ball python. Would I ever use pine, probably not simply because I'd have to know that I know that I know that my supplier is drying the stuff really well.. Hell I've gotten pine for rats that smells like smoke and has huge burned chunks in it..

I'm not comfortable with it..that's me,, I've heard Bailey talk about things he does that make my butt hole pucker..that's him he's comfortable doing it and has great success doing it..

I'm just not confident enough with my local product to try it..

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## Skiploder

Again Donna - name me one person you know that has had a snake suffer a decreased lifespan or has had an increased rate of respiratory distress due to keeping snakes on pine.

I mean if I take your word for it that feeders are becoming chronically ill from it, shouldn't snakes and their "fairly delicate" systems show obvious signs of trouble?

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## Skiploder

I only named breeders who have either discussed on their care sheets or on forums that they use or recommend pine.  Again, Barczyk and Spuckler are easy examples. 

I live by the East Bay Vivarium and have dealt with Owen and Jon for years.  Not only do they almost exclusively use pine (for caging, breeding, etc.) they recommend it even though they sell bulk aspen, bulk cypress, etc.

I could easily name another dozen well-respected people in the hobby who use it but considering the e-taboo on the stuff I'm not going to "out" anyone.

Why would people who make their bread and butter on the successful propagation of snakes use it if it was so damaging long term to their livelihood?

Tin foil hat theories welcome. 

In the mean time, chew on this.  Aspen (despite uninformed claims to the contrary) also contains phenols, catechols and salicins.  What do they use these for?  Just like pine - defense against potential predators.

So, has anyone figured out yet what the long term effects of these compounds on snakes is yet?

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## WingedWolfPsion

No, again--no one has done any studies on the effects of the volatile oils in pine on snakes--not that I am aware of.

Also, no one has done any studies to see if switching from another type of bedding over to pine has increased respiratory issues in their snakes.

That was my point.  Since we DON'T know, most people choose to play it safe, and not use something that causes harm in other species of animals.  You're promoting the idea that they should assume it is safe, because there's no direct evidence that it isn't safe.

It is irrelevant whether there is proof, or evidence, that it causes harm to snakes, because there is no proof, or evidence, that it does not.  There is no evidence one way or the other.  What large breeders choose to do is likewise not relevant, because THEY HAVE NO EVIDENCE, EITHER.

Snakes live for a very long time.  It's easy to see a pattern in animals that live for only 4 or 5 years, tops.  In animals that live to be 30, it's MUCH more difficult to see a trend in the form of shortened lifespans.  I would hazard that only someone with a HUGE collection running an actual experiment--using pine for half and newspaper or aspen for half--over a span of perhaps 60 years--could have a hope of providing a real answer on this.

However, in the short term, some lab student could easily conduct a test on liver enzymes in snakes kept on pine versus those kept on aspen or newspaper.  I would be VERY interested in seeing the results of such a test.

If the results showed that liver enzymes were not elevated in snakes on pine, I would switch to using pine myself.  But I need evidence before I risk my snakes--positive scientific evidence, not mere 'I didn't notice anything' by keepers.

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_minguss_ (06-09-2010)

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## wilomn

> No, again--no one has done any studies on the effects of the volatile oils in pine on snakes--not that I am aware of.
> 
> Also, no one has done any studies to see if switching from another type of bedding over to pine has increased respiratory issues in their snakes.
> 
> That was my point.  Since we DON'T know, most people choose to play it safe, and not use something that causes harm in other species of animals.  You're promoting the idea that they should assume it is safe, because there's no direct evidence that it isn't safe.
> 
> It is irrelevant whether there is proof, or evidence, that it causes harm to snakes, because there is no proof, or evidence, that it does not.  There is no evidence one way or the other.  What large breeders choose to do is likewise not relevant, because THEY HAVE NO EVIDENCE, EITHER.
> 
> Snakes live for a very long time.  It's easy to see a pattern in animals that live for only 4 or 5 years, tops.  In animals that live to be 30, it's MUCH more difficult to see a trend in the form of shortened lifespans.  I would hazard that only someone with a HUGE collection running an actual experiment--using pine for half and newspaper or aspen for half--over a span of perhaps 60 years--could have a hope of providing a real answer on this.
> ...


Hole in Theory Number 1.
     The liver is not the sole filter of the body.
Hole 2.
     There are those who have kept snakes for decades, maybe not six but more than three, on pine. Still doing fine, still breeding regularly, still looking fantastic. Personal experience.

I personally have not noticed detrimental effects from pine on any snake I've kept it on. I have kept thousands and thousands of snakes on pine. Not tens, not hundreds, thousands and thousands. Mice too. Rats as well.

If you're gotten snakes from me or seen them at a show....Pine. 
If you've gotten rats from me or seen them at a show.... Pine.

No sneezing, no sniffling, no coughing. Fat healthy snakes and their food.

All on pine.

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_bad-one_ (06-09-2010)

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## Skiploder

> Hole in Theory Number 1.
>      The liver is not the sole filter of the body.
> Hole 2.
>      There are those who have kept snakes for decades, maybe not six but more than three, on pine. Still doing fine, still breeding regularly, still looking fantastic. Personal experience.
> 
> I personally have not noticed detrimental effects from pine on any snake I've kept it on. I have kept thousands and thousands of snakes on pine. Not tens, not hundreds, thousands and thousands. Mice too. Rats as well.
> 
> If you're gotten snakes from me or seen them at a show....Pine. 
> If you've gotten rats from me or seen them at a show.... Pine.
> ...


*Hole in Theory #3 -* Elevated enzyme levels are a normal part of the detoxification process.  None of those oft quoted studies have ever correlated elevated enyzme levels to liver disease.

*Hole in Theory #4 -* While the debate rages on the safety of pine that is not heat treated, there really is no debate on heat treated or kiln dried pine.  I repeat, the safety of heat treated pine is not debateable.

Where am I getting that info?  Well, Wingy, go run around Google looking for the relevant studies.  When you get tired of not finding an easy answer, come back and maybe I'll throw ya a bone.  

*Hole in Theory #5* - Donna, you can't simultaneously claim that snakes have a more delicate respiratory system and then claim that rats and mice more readily show signs of pine induced stress.  I mean you can, but you do realize that those two claims contradict each other, don't you?

How does a delicate flower of a snake go 20 years on pine and not show any effects, but a hardy old rat becomes a pine-induced invalid within a short period of time?

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## Chuckels

I did not know that Pine was harmful to rodents. Ive been using Pine in my rodent cages for over 2 years now, and I have never had an issue.

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## Punkymom

Ok.  My reply does not have to do with reptiles, but I have been wondering about this for some time.  I have kept rabbits in the past.  I would always keep them on aspen because pine was not safe.  Well, then I was doing some Googling one day and was reading about Kiln Dried Pine.  Said it was different than "regular" pine.  Said it was safe to use with rabbits who have sensitive respiratory systems.  I bought some to use with my rabbit and I loved it!  Absorbant and much nicer than aspen.  And no breathing problems for my bun.  Ok so that doesn't really help, but after reading all this stuff about why not to use pine with snakes I've been wondering if the same arguement (pine vs kiln dried pine) is true for reptiles.

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## bad-one

I haven't used pine for my snakes, mainly because I love my newspaper.

However, I've only just started breeding rodents mid last year but I have exclusively used kiln dried pine for their bedding and I love it! My newly set up mice are healthy as can be and so are my rats who are doing just fine. No sniffling, sneezing, etc.

I have to agree that aspen sucks- used it for 3-4 years with my first bp, it barely absorbs anything  :projectile:

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## WingedWolfPsion

That's the problem, you can't take the individual experiences of a few people, and say 'oh, see, well that proves it, it's safe'.

If snakes aren't reacting to pine in a similar fashion to the way rats do, then they aren't very likely to show elevated liver enzymes if kept on pine, the way rats do.  If that is so, then it might be safe for them, but you cannot know until you test it.

Your argument simply makes no sense.
Rats carry mycoplasma, it makes them very sensitive to respiratory irritants.  Ball pythons have one large primary lung, and only a tiny secondary lung, and they have no diaphragm, so they can't cough--that makes them sensitive to respiratory issues as well, though possibly not as sensitive as rats.
But this isn't about a simple respiratory irritant, it's about toxins that affect other organ systems in the body.

Where is the logic in taking an unnecessary chance with the health of valuable animals that we care about?

Are you honestly trying to claim that 'so and so does it and he says he never had a problem' is equal to an actual scientific study?  Are you honestly trying to claim that because you haven't NOTICED a problem, that means there isn't one, period?

Why are you trying to promote pine as safe, when you have no scientific evidence to back it up?  Since we know pine is not safe for some other animals, FOR WHAT REASON would we take the risk without the data on whether or not it is completely safe for snakes?

That's what I'm asking her--my main question--WHY TAKE THAT RISK?

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_minguss_ (06-09-2010)

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## WingedWolfPsion

> I did not know that Pine was harmful to rodents. Ive been using Pine in my rodent cages for over 2 years now, and I have never had an issue.


If you're keeping a pet rat, it's a poor choice, as it will cause lots of sniffles, and they'll die at a younger age.
If you're keeping feeder breeders, they won't live long enough to die from complications due to being kept on pine.

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## wilomn

> If you're keeping a pet rat, it's a poor choice, as it will cause lots of sniffles, and they'll die at a younger age.
> If you're keeping feeder breeders, they won't live long enough to die from complications due to being kept on pine.


Your first sentence is a flat out lie. I've got over 100 adults here you can come listen to any time you like. They've never been on anything but pine. I've got to be 30 generations on pine.

You second sentence is pure balderdash. You may have studies to back it up but as has been said, kraplan isn't known for accuracy, honesty or intelligence. I've had pet rats live 3 or 4 years on pine.

Do you have ANY personal experience with it?

As far as your scientists and measurements go, I may not be going to that extreme but my snakes eat, breed, move, live long lives and have multiple generations all while living on pine from hatchling to old age. I have decades of experience with, as I said, thousands of snakes. My information, though it directly contradicts what you regurgitate, is true, accurate and time tested.

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_bad-one_ (06-09-2010),rabernet (06-09-2010)

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## rabernet

> Or, to put it more simply, do you want to trust your female coral glow pied to a bedding that causes rats to wheeze and snuffle and die at half their usual lifespan?


All of my rats are kept on pine (pellets for adults, shavings for nursing moms and babies) - none wheeze or snuffle, and my oldest was almost four years old before she died. I personally have seen no negative effects of using pine bedding for any of my rodents. In addition, it cuts the smell much better than aspen does.

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Skiploder (06-09-2010)

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## West Coast Jungle

I also keep many hundreds of rats on regular pine and have for 5+ years generation after generation with many of them as pets that are my wifes personal favorites. Never have had any respitory problems whatsoever.

Now what does cause respitory problems is keeping rodents in enclosed tanks with little ventilation caused by the the fumes from their constant peeing and pooping. The bedding is irrelevant. Some could very easily blame the bedding but the reality is they need cages with screened or grated tops that allow alot of air circulation. 

I have seen several theories on the internet that are based on assumptions more than facts, for instance, dont feed in the enclosure because they will bite you whenever you open the cage. This is bunk but still is believed and preached passionately by many.

I am a fulltime newspaper guy for BP's now but have kept my kings on dried pine and aspen with the same results, perfectly fine.

I dont use dried pine on the rats (even hairless) and for many years and have never had any problems at all, ever.

For snakes I would say only dried pine and you are fine, rodents either one :Wink:

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Skiploder (06-09-2010)

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## WingedWolfPsion

Sorry, I do not have faith.  I have to stick with the science, personally.

People will have to make up their own minds which they prefer.

But I really disagree with advocating a potentially hazardous bedding choice.

It's amazing to me that you have rats with no respiratory problems at all--since they all carry mycoplasma.  Unless you got yours from a special laboratory, delivered by C-section.

If you prefer to trust word of mouth over science...they're your critters, do it the way you want.  Just make sure the people you are talking to know enough to make an informed decision about it for themselves.

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## Skiploder

> Sorry, I do not have faith.  I have to stick with the science, personally.
> 
> People will have to make up their own minds which they prefer.
> 
> But I really disagree with advocating a potentially hazardous bedding choice.
> 
> It's amazing to me that you have rats with no respiratory problems at all--since they all carry mycoplasma.  Unless you got yours from a special laboratory, delivered by C-section.
> 
> If you prefer to trust word of mouth over science...they're your critters, do it the way you want.  Just make sure the people you are talking to know enough to make an informed decision about it for themselves.


Wingy, you got poo all over your shoe and you are tracking it on the rug.  Go back out the front door and wipe it off on the lawn.  We'll deal with the mess on the carpet.

Again, SCIENCE says that elevated liver enzymes doth not disease make.

SCIENCE shows us that aspen also contains phenols.

The only word of mouth being flopped about here is your strident claim that pine may be bad.  You have not one shred of proof and worse, when people come forth and prove to you they've been using it on rats and snakes for decades with no issue, you go turtle.  When it's shown that the some of the demi-gods of the snakedom use and recommend it, you go ostrich,  and when you are finally backed into a corner you begin spewing nonsensical comments like the one quoted above.  We call that going moonbat.

At the beginning of this thread I asked for proof.  You are creating a mish-mash response from crappage strewn all over the wasteland of the internet.  

See, I can Google the same JSTOR abstracts and the same BS pseudo-science detritus from a bunch of wanna-be biologists and grad students, barefoot and toothless rodent nuts and vomit it word for word here.  Point is that the abstracts are the tip of the iceberg and the studies don't mean jack without an understanding of science and a full reading and understanding of the data. 

To whit - the cornerstone of the "pine bad" argument is the elevated liver enzyme studies.  I've seen too many people running around with that data in the air thinking it's a smoking gun.  The problem with hacks is that they don't understand that elevated liver enzymes are a normal part of the detoxification process and unless a manifestation of liver disease is seen it means NOTHING.  Smoking gun?  More like a partially lit fart.

So enough with your full thread derailment.  Crap or get off the pot.  Where is your proof that pine bedding is harmful to reptiles?  Where is your proof that an elevation of liver enzymes is (a) attributable to pine phenols and (b) that this elevation is a marker of future disease or a shortened lifespan?

Proof, Wingy.  Show it or do us a favor and quietly exit the backdoor.  You are doing nothing but propagating the same tired old BS bandied about on every snake site.  I didn't ask for a rehash of every pine bedding rumor from the past five years, I asked for proof.  

I will welcome proof and firsthand accounts of pine carnage.  Your flip flops, back flips and mental cart wheels are amusing when it comes to politics, mildly irritating when it comes to social issues and down right hair rending when it comes to science.  Embarrass yourself no further please.

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BILLB OKC (06-10-2010),_Buttons_ (06-10-2010)

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## Skiploder

> All of my rats are kept on pine (pellets for adults, shavings for nursing moms and babies) - none wheeze or snuffle, and my oldest was almost four years old before she died. I personally have seen no negative effects of using pine bedding for any of my rodents. In addition, it cuts the smell much better than aspen does.





> I also keep many hundreds of rats on regular pine and have for 5+ years generation after generation with many of them as pets that are my wifes personal favorites. Never have had any respitory problems whatsoever.
> 
> Now what does cause respitory problems is keeping rodents in enclosed tanks with little ventilation caused by the the fumes from their constant peeing and pooping. The bedding is irrelevant. Some could very easily blame the bedding but the reality is they need cages with screened or grated tops that allow alot of air circulation. 
> 
> I have seen several theories on the internet that are based on assumptions more than facts, for instance, dont feed in the enclosure because they will bite you whenever you open the cage. This is bunk but still is believed and preached passionately by many.
> 
> I am a fulltime newspaper guy for BP's now but have kept my kings on dried pine and aspen with the same results, perfectly fine.
> 
> I dont use dried pine on the rats (even hairless) and for many years and have never had any problems at all, ever.
> ...





> Your first sentence is a flat out lie. I've got over 100 adults here you can come listen to any time you like. They've never been on anything but pine. I've got to be 30 generations on pine.
> 
> You second sentence is pure balderdash. You may have studies to back it up but as has been said, kraplan isn't known for accuracy, honesty or intelligence. I've had pet rats live 3 or 4 years on pine.
> 
> Do you have ANY personal experience with it?
> 
> As far as your scientists and measurements go, I may not be going to that extreme but my snakes eat, breed, move, live long lives and have multiple generations all while living on pine from hatchling to old age. I have decades of experience with, as I said, thousands of snakes. My information, though it directly contradicts what you regurgitate, is true, accurate and time tested.




Look at the dozens of people who have come forward on this thread citing the horrors of pine bedding and it becomes obvious you three have all had rare streaks of luck.......

.......year after year after year after year........

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## rabernet

> It's amazing to me that you have rats with no respiratory problems at all--since they all carry mycoplasma.  Unless you got yours from a special laboratory, delivered by C-section.


It amazes you that mine don't wheeze and snuffle on pine because they all carry mycoplasma? 

You argue that pine causes wheezes and snuffles (have you ever tried it with your rats?), but then in the next breath are amazed that mine do not on pine - because they all carry mycoplasma. By that argument, they would wheeze and snuffle on any bedding.  :Confused:

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## WingedWolfPsion

Occasionally, one would expect it--most any immune challenge can trigger a myco flare up.  
It's a compliment, actually--you must take excellent care of your rats to have avoided this.

Actually, I keep my rats on pine.  I see a lot less snuffles since I stopped adding new animals to the colony, but I do spot some occasionally.  I have 1 3/4 full racks of rats, though.

It's the most economical choice for rats, which are all fed off before they're a full year old anyhow.  Scientific studies show that pine releases toxins--some individual animals will be able to withstand that better than others, so I'm not surprised that you get the occasional elderly rat, even on pine.

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## wilomn

> occasional elderly rat, even on pine.


Occasional? As in not very often? As in changing what someone else wrote to suit your side of the argument?

Well, that does seem to be all you have in your arsenal....

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## CoolioTiffany

A while back I heard something about a snake swallowing some of the pine bedding and the snake ended up acting odd with CNS problems.

Not sure if that would be caused from the pine, or from a disease.

I don't want anyone to take that story and immediately believe that, "Oh, that's evidence!" because it doesn't prove much since I didn't hear about a necropsy done with the snake after it died.

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## mainbutter

Skip I think your original post nailed one of the big points.. people confuse pine and cedar.

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## WingedWolfPsion

A quick internet search will reveal the results from experiments with keeping rodents on pine versus other beddings.

There is a reason why the keepers of high-end show rats and mice do not use pine.  

For feeders, it doesn't matter.  But I don't trust pine for my valuable snakes, because even a small chance of a toxic reaction from it is too much chance.

I'm not sure what people think I'm lying about.  Google is your friend, go look it up.  .edu sites are best.

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## j_h_smith

I'm going back almost 20 years, but I seem to remember that pine itself wasn't the issue, but pine needle bedding.  Maybe I'm losing it, but I seem to remember the offending bedding was pine needle bedding.

As for pine shaving bedding, as long as it has the resin cooked out of it, I'm sure it should be fine.  I would think that the pine resin would be hazardous to more than just snakes and other reptiles.  After getting the resin on my hands, I couldn't imagine injesting that stuff.

I have no chemical analysis but just the stickiness of the resin would have ill effects on the digestive system. 

Just my opinion!
Jim Smith

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## Raptor

I kept pet hamsters on cedar. Not pine, cedar. From what I've heard, cedar is thee worst of the bunch, or at least, is as "evil" as pine. I never got a single repiratory issue. They all lived long lives. Most of them ended up dieing from tumors..But that seems to be a common problem with hamsters.

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## kitedemon

Hmm I am going to add my two cents to this. I don't know for sure but as I found this interesting I asked a colleague of mine and was told two things of interest. If it smells of pine it has phenols. He didn't know of any studies with reptiles but here is an article on human studies.

https://ietd.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstre...llchapters.pdf

"Workers exposed to pine and fibre dust have more respiratory problems and a greater risk of airway obstruction, since their FVC showed a significant inverse correlation with exposure (Choubrace, 1991). Several types of wood dust, especially western red cedar wood, was reported to cause occupational asthma in carpenters and timber workers"

Raw pine has tons of studies that seem to point to toxic effects in mammals. I have not found any that state anything about kiln dried. The OHSS doctor I asked said if it smells of pine there is phenols I have found no hard evidence on that so it is up for debate. I don't know myself. 

I remember when I was first working a guy I worked with up to his arm pits in PCBs. Now you need a has-mat suit. He still lives around the corner from my family s house and just turned 95. He worked with PCBs for 50 years. Times change and ideas change aluminum pots good or bad I don't know anymore. My point is ideas change. 

The kiln dried pine debate is just that a debate. I know and can back up with articles that raw untreated pine has phenols and that phenols cause respiratory issues in mammals. I also know that most of the wood in my house is rough pine and I don't have respiratory problems. 

Most of the people whom have posted keep their snakes on pine even if they don't know it. Newspaper is made of (in north america anyway) Pine and spruce with some hemlock, larch an bits of hardwoods too. White paper is bleached, but newsprint is just natural. Washed and dried, chewed up and a handful of other things but it is still wood in there. Is it toxic? I don't know either.

I think there is no conclusive proof with kiln dried pine, toxic or not. My worry would be am I sure it is kiln dried and not air dried pine chips. I don't know if there is a way of telling and kiln drying is expensive and drying a low value product seems rather odd to me. I would be concerned with getting a mix. I certainly understand why it would be a great choice of bedding. 

Alex

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## stratus_020202

Here is what About.com says:




> Bottom Line 
> Based on the studies that implicate the compounds from cedar in allergic and respiratory diseases as well as the impact on liver enzymes, it seems it may well be prudent to avoid cedar shavings as bedding or litter, especially since alternatives are available. 
> 
> With pine shavings, the problem isn't as clear cut. Pine shavings emit similar volatile compounds as cedar, but the risks aren't clear. It is thought that heat treating pine shavings may reduce the levels of aromatic hydrocarbons that have been implicated as a potential concern, so that products such as kiln dried pine are safe (many pet products are heat treated). 
> 
> Since the information about the problems is circumstantial and hasn't been evaluated in the context of health problems in exotic pets, I'm hesitant to make firm recommendations. That said, it has been my personal choice to avoid cedar; I have used pine in the past, though recently I have been trying out many of the alternatives available on the market instead.


Here is the link: http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/guine...odshavings.htm

I prefer to keep mine on paper towels. I think it's cheap, fluffy, and comfortable. That way I don't have to go through a whole investigative process to find out if a certain bag of pine is safe. When in doubt, throw it out.

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## kitedemon

stratus_020202 good point however...

There are questions asked about almost everything. When in doubt, throw it out. There is a question about some plastics (BPA) that may or may not be in the plastics around your collection. White paper products may (likely do in fact) contain one or more of the various dioxin compounds. They are arguably the most toxic industrial by product known at 0.0006 mg/kg (LD50 lethal dose that kills 50% of a given population of guinea pigs) Your paper towels may contain dioxin an argument could be made about that too. 

I guess my point is almost everything can be called into question in a modern society. You can't just avoid all things that maybe an issue so the question is how much of an issue is it? 

That I think is part of the point of this thread. Pine has questions of how toxic is it, so does all papers and almost everything else. As I stated I would be concerned about using raw air dried pine and I would always question if my chips I was being supplied with were kiln or air dried ones. It is a cheap absorbent and more environmentally responsible choice. Personally I have questions and locally for me kiln dried pine chips shavings is next to impossible to find anyway. So I'll not use pine at all, I can see the attraction to it.

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## Raptor

> Hmm I am going to add my two cents to this. I don't know for sure but as I found this interesting I asked a colleague of mine and was told two things of interest. If it smells of pine it has phenols. He didn't know of any studies with reptiles but here is an article on human studies.
> 
> https://ietd.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstre...llchapters.pdf
> 
> "Workers exposed to pine and fibre dust have more respiratory problems and a greater risk of airway obstruction, since their FVC showed a significant inverse correlation with exposure (Choubrace, 1991). Several types of wood dust, especially western red cedar wood, was reported to cause occupational asthma in carpenters and timber workers"
> 
> Raw pine has tons of studies that seem to point to toxic effects in mammals. I have not found any that state anything about kiln dried. The OHSS doctor I asked said if it smells of pine there is phenols I have found no hard evidence on that so it is up for debate. I don't know myself. 
> 
> I remember when I was first working a guy I worked with up to his arm pits in PCBs. Now you need a has-mat suit. He still lives around the corner from my family s house and just turned 95. He worked with PCBs for 50 years. Times change and ideas change aluminum pots good or bad I don't know anymore. My point is ideas change. 
> ...


Any kind of dust is going to cause respiratory issues..

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Skiploder (06-29-2010)

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## kitedemon

Granted, the results do point that pine dust causes a stronger reaction than some other woods. I am not saying pine is good or bad just there is evidence that points to an issue with the phenols and that there is a reduction in the phenol content after drying. I still question are you sure that the chips you are buying have been dried after chipping. In my area the one wood yard I used to work with told me they don't dry pine chips at all they just chip the branches and end cuts.

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## Raptor

Then same can go for aspen. How do you know it's being dried?

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## kitedemon

I don't, but the phenol count of aspen (white poplar around my area) is way less. It has some but nothing I can detect personally. phenols smell, smelly wood like pine, rose wood, cedar have much more phenol content. Pine is oily feeling waxy almost that is pine oil which is a disinfectant and insecticide, it kills stuff, that is the issue, long tern exposure has a debatable effect. Aspen is almost free of smell and oil some but super low dried or not it is less than kiln dried pine. No substrate is free of trace toxins it is just how much. 

I really am trying to add something useful pine looks like a great option a natural insect repellent (mites) and disinfectant (think Pine-sol, hell pine oil kills salmonella, mold, mildew and a lot of other things) if you can be sure it is dried. My personally worry is are you sure?

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## Skiploder

We've established that pine and cedar and aspne all contain phenols.  What we haven't established is whether the phenols in pine pose a health risk to snakes.

What has also been established is that paper beddings - especially Carefresh, unlike wood bedding, do a piss-poor job of inhibiting the bacterial degradation of urine into ammonia.

Like phenols, ammonia has been implicated in all sorts of respiratory and other health ailments.

Sooooooo - while we're discussing the bugaboo that is pine, let's bring in the proponents of Carefresh and other paper beddings and ask if they've noticed an increase in health issues.

..........and let's pose some questions to the group:  Keeping these things in mind - We can smell the phenols in pine.  We can't smell the phenols in aspen.  There are no phenols in paper beddings.  Paper beddings are almost completely ineffective at inhibiting the conversion of urine into ammonia.

(1)  What is the difference in phenol levels in pine and aspen?  (Kids, don't go spouting BS that aspen doesn't contain phenols - they do.  Not everything you read on the internet is true).

(2)  At what level do phenols become a health hazard?

(3)  Does that level kick in before the human olfactory system can detect it?

(4)  Should the ability of a bedding to block or inhibit the conversion of urine to ammonia factor into bedding choice?

(5)  If phenols are established as a health concern, and ammonia is established as a health concern - why do we demonize the purported phenol risks but blithely ignore those associated with ammonia?

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## wilomn

> We've established that pine and cedar and aspne all contain phenols.  What we haven't established is whether the phenols in pine pose a health risk to snakes.
> 
> What has also been established is that paper beddings - especially Carefresh, unlike wood bedding, do a piss-poor job of inhibiting the bacterial degradation of urine into ammonia.
> 
> Like phenols, ammonia has been implicated in all sorts of respiratory and other health ailments.
> 
> Sooooooo - while we're discussing the bugaboo that is pine, let's bring in the proponents of Carefresh and other paper beddings and ask if they've noticed an increase in health issues.
> 
> ..........and let's pose some questions to the group:  Keeping these things in mind - We can smell the phenols in pine.  We can't smell the phenols in aspen.  There are no phenols in paper beddings.  Paper beddings are almost completely ineffective at inhibiting the conversion of urine into ammonia.
> ...


While these are excellent questions and I too am curious, I must wonder if perhaps your wife is on vacation.

You seem to have a LOT of time for thought this last week or so. LOL

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## Skiploder

> While these are excellent questions and I too am curious, I must wonder if perhaps your wife is on vacation.
> 
> You seem to have a LOT of time for thought this last week or so. LOL



My wife and kids are in Oregon visiting the in-laws and I'm working nights.  

In addition to my increased posting I re-did the joists on the decks, installed a new dishwasher and installed new hardwood floors in the living and dining rooms.  I also re-organized the herp building, built a new large arboreal cage and am working on an incubator made out of the old dishwasher.

The new cage before I sealed it and installed the sliding glass (4' tall, 3' wide and 2' deep).







They'll be back next week..........

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## WingedWolfPsion

Does pine ACTUALLY inhibit the conversion of urine into ammonia, or does it merely mask the odor of ammonia?

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## kitedemon

That is nice work Skip!

Ok so after some reading and a walk to the chem lab...

Phenol levels in pine wood I have no absolute information but I have had an opinion that it would be around 8-9 mg/m3. That is an opinion. We can smell the phenols in pine so lets say that aspen is somewhat lower that 8mg. Fair? that same can be said for oils in the wood you can feel pine oils where Aspen is noticeably less. 

There are a huge amount of industrial uses of phenol and it is hard to find data on raw phenols in pine. The best info I can find is the limit value is about 35mg/m3 and that is raw. So lets say the safe limit is 10mg/m3 that is a guess! long tern exposure is less than that again. So my best guess raw pine would be at the very high end of safe. Kiln dried would be something lower than that but again it is a guess as to how much lower.

We can detect levels in pine so lets say at least 8mg/m3 we can smell. 

Ammonia has very similar issues as phenols. The question is how long does urine take to become ammonia? I have not found that answer yet. Personally I check daily for urine and other things :-) so it is not likely to stay in the environment for long. it is more of an issue I would think the more snakes you have. So this is a yes and no. Yes it matters if there is a chance of urinates sitting for longer than 24 hours  and no if it is shorter. 

The other issue with paper substrates is the ammonia that is in the paper to start with and the trace dioxin. Carefresh has lots of info all conflicting and nothing based in evidence so it is impossible to make an informed opinion. 

Phenols are demonized because of media hype. Why is dioxin ignored and PCDs demonized? Dioxin will kill you dead, pcbs might give you cancer. 

What substrates are completely safe? I have no idea I am sure that with digging there is some issue with them all. Personally I use Cyprus coco husk mix (eco earth) I know how completely sad the cyprus issues are, I have been thinking of a switch to Aspen. Or just eco earth. Again I don't have answers only more questions. I can't find kiln dried pine chips that are free of bark and bit of junk. The bits I looked at was full of bark and aphids, ants and who knows what else. The pine chips where I am are kept outside in open piles. Clean kiln dried pine that is in sealed bags after it has been dried and doesn't smell super piney would likely be ok. I can't find any. 

Interesting debate but to my mind there is no clear answer.

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## wilomn

> Does pine ACTUALLY inhibit the conversion of urine into ammonia, or does it merely mask the odor of ammonia?


I don't use carefresh, being a Pine guy myself, but I know of many who do. When it gets wet, it stays wet. I think it stays wet longer than Pine does in similar circumstances. Since there is no chance of ammonia conversion in a dry environment I would "guess" that Pine would promote less ammonia.

Of course my guess, is just that. 

Now if you keep or allow your Pine to stay wet, then sure, ammonia is inevitable. But in the short term, knowing only my own cages and their keeping intimately enough to comment, I have no worries with Pine.

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## Skiploder

> Does pine ACTUALLY inhibit the conversion of urine into ammonia, or does it merely mask the odor of ammonia?



Masking the odor would have no effect on measurable ammonia levels.  Beddings that slow or retard the growth of ammonia do so by absorption or by controlling the bacteria that breaks urine down into ammonia.

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## Skiploder

> That is nice work Skip!
> 
> Ok so after some reading and a walk to the chem lab...
> 
> Phenol levels in pine wood I have no absolute information but I have had an opinion that it would be around 8-9 mg/m3. That is an opinion. We can smell the phenols in pine so lets say that aspen is somewhat lower that 8mg. Fair? that same can be said for oils in the wood you can feel pine oils where Aspen is noticeably less. 
> 
> There are a huge amount of industrial uses of phenol and it is hard to find data on raw phenols in pine. The best info I can find is the limit value is about 35mg/m3 and that is raw. So lets say the safe limit is 10mg/m3 that is a guess! long tern exposure is less than that again. So my best guess raw pine would be at the very high end of safe. Kiln dried would be something lower than that but again it is a guess as to how much lower.
> 
> We can detect levels in pine so lets say at least 8mg/m3 we can smell. 
> ...


My local Ace Hardware is selling the two cubic foot blocks of coco coir for $3.99 each.  I stocked up on some.  They store real easily.

I have issues with aspen.  It molds really easily and I've gotten some really smelly loads of it.

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## WingedWolfPsion

I realize that masking the odor of ammonia is different from reducing the level of ammonia, which is why I asked which pine actually does.  Are there any studies on this?

I do recall a number of folks reporting skin infection problems with coconut coir bedding, possibly because it holds moisture a bit too well, remaining damp.  Or perhaps they did not thoroughly dry it before using it.  Still, is it economical at that price?

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## kitedemon

The coco hold moisture like crazy I usually mix up what I need with water press out as much as I can then crumble in dry and mix it really well. I'll then let it dry out on a sheet for a day or two before I use it. Even at that I'll hit 65-75 % for the first day or so that is why I have been mixing cyprus in to it the cyprus is drier and drops it back. Yes it is a pain in the butt doing all that.

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## Raptor

I've noticed a big difference between aspen and pine pellet bedding. The aspen, even with just two or three mice in a ten gal tank would turn over and die roughly every week and a half. The pine pellet bedding as no smell lasts twice this long. I have a male mouse all by his lonesome and I can't remember the last time I had to clean his tank. There's no smell and the urination area dries before it can become too much of an issue. The more mice, the quicker I need to change. Even then, it'll last several weeks unless I have a water bottle leakage.

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## Skiploder

> I realize that masking the odor of ammonia is different from reducing the level of ammonia, which is why I asked which pine actually does.  Are there any studies on this?
> 
> I do recall a number of folks reporting skin infection problems with coconut coir bedding, possibly because it holds moisture a bit too well, remaining damp.  Or perhaps they did not thoroughly dry it before using it.  Still, is it economical at that price?



Numerous studies have been conducted on ammonia levels and bedding.  The key is to look at the ones that studied "static" systems as opposed to ventilated systems.

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