# Site General > General Herp >  Terry Cullen raided

## bsd13

> WITI-TV, MILWAUKEE - It's a job that's going to take more than 24 hours to complete. Experts from animal control in Milwaukee, the DNR, Racine Zoo and fire and police officials are all taking part in the removal of hundreds of exotic animals from a building near 13th and Lincoln on the city's south side.


http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100...,6418101.story

http://www.fox6now.com/videobeta/baf...Milwaukee-home

----------


## ALTownsend1

No charges? Poor Tibetan Mastiffs...

----------


## loonunit

If that's the treatment the dogs got, I'm not real hopeful for the rest of the animals.

----------


## Step Johns

I don't understand why they are seizing all of his animals if there are no charges against him? That news broadcast is horrible, making it seem like the animals inside could at any time kill an innocent person. The ignorance of people makes me sick.

----------

9Catsz (05-18-2010),bamagecko76 (10-21-2010),capitalB (05-14-2010),_CoolioTiffany_ (05-16-2010),_djansen_ (05-14-2010),Flatheadhunter33 (07-07-2010),_Fraido_ (09-06-2016),_HypoPita_ (05-20-2010),_jsmorphs2_ (05-14-2010),MissDixie (05-16-2010)

----------


## BuckeyeBalls

Yea i would of posted it but i chose not to as last time i posted something with dogs getting shot in raids i got infracted lol. I seen this on rtbs forums.

From what i understand the dogs were "running loose" so they had to kill em?


Edit:

"They did shoot 2 dogs that were running through because they were concerned for their safety" from the reporter

----------


## mommanessy247

wow poor dogs. well hopefully the animals will have good homes from here on out. i saw that a zoo was involved in that raid, they'll probly take the alligators & the "500 lb" snake that was mentioned.

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

This is absolutely horrendous! No charges, no explanation on the warrant, he's a reptile expert that they have used many times in the past... Makes no sense at all. They cant legally keep those animals from him. Saying plastic tubs and water trough like its a bad thing. So he was keeping his animals in a correct and safe way, and the public, which is completely ignorant and has no knowledge of proper housing for reptiles, is being made to think he was doing something wrong??? Chinese alligators stay very small and docile. It shocks me that he has helped so many people and animals, doing things the right way, and they are being taken from him with no explanation. I'm utterly disgusted.   :Mad:

----------

green farmer (05-14-2010),monty's dad (05-20-2010)

----------


## Jeremy78

Very very sad...

----------


## johnsonw84

did a quick google and found this,lets hope the politicians in wa dont try to use this to try to pass more legislation against us.  
http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/93697954.html

----------


## mpkeelee

no saying y the raid happened n why the search warrant. two dogs dead. a neighborhood confused and scared for no reason. the police, game warden, chief, and everyone else involved should be investigated.

two dogs are dead because officers "feared for their safety", do u see them raiding and collecting dogs? NO! 

I have been to iraq and i've been Army for a long time now. and for what? so the people i work for can come take my beloved pets. HA good luck!!

----------


## rabernet

> Yea i would of posted it but i chose not to as last time i posted something with dogs getting shot in raids i got infracted lol. I seen this on rtbs forums.


At least tell the entire truth when trying to garner sympathy. You got infracted for in-appropriate language contained within the video that you posted.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------

BigBlue56 (05-14-2010),_BPelizabeth_ (05-14-2010)

----------


## BPelizabeth

Wow this is just terrible!  Granted I do not know the whole story but it amazes me that you can serve a warrant for some type of sexual offense  (that you are innocent of until proven guilty) and end up with 2 dead dogs and loosing all of your reptiles.  And his partner was arrested for animal neglect...again wow.  Let this be a warning to all of us ...even on the small scale.  They can take our animals at anytime ...clearly for anything.  Apparently it is abusive to house snakes in our racks.   :Wag of the finger:  

Anything can be misconstrued when it comes to our reptiles.  I have a 9 year old...plus I have TONS of kids over here everyday that help me to take care of them.  I can see the news now....she had over 10 animals....housed improperly....could get out at anytime and attack these poor little children.  Heaven forefend if they come in prior to me cleaning one of the lizards daily poos.  Then it would be...they were sitting in their own feces.  UGHHHHHHHHHH

----------


## joepythons

Holy cow he was at the Tinley show  :Surprised: .The idiots thinking the reptiles were going to kill the neighborhood kids at any time  :Mad: .

----------


## kellysballs

This is OUTRAGEOUS! These people who are carting away the animals probably have no idea what they are except "turtle, snake, alligator or croc" are you kidding me?!?! This guy works closely with endangered species and I believe he owns some as educational animals. I really hope that no harm falls to the animals they are (probably illegally) removing from his facility.

The following is the city code for milwauke as you can see the wording is pretty loose on what is considered a "dangerous" animal. But while there are restrictions on the number of cats and dogs you can have there are none for reptiles.


ANIMAL CONTROL

Various Animal control activities including licensing dog and cats, reporting dangerous animals dog and cats at large, farm animals in the city, pet shops and fanciers. Animal Bites, Dog/Cat Licensing, Animal Fancier, Animal Noise, Wild Animal Capture, Dangerous Animals, Dogs/Cats running at large and littering, Farm Animals in the City, Pet Shops, Pet Grooming, Kennels, Stables, Animal Keeper Fees and Prohibited Dangerous Animals Wild/Exotic Animals brought into the City

Action to take for Animal Bites.pdf-A guide to help determine the best course of action after an animal bite. Test your knowledge of rabies and how to avoid a greater risk of becoming infected.


[Return to top of Page]



ANIMAL BITES
(excluding birds, reptiles, or small rodents)

Any time an animal, residing in the City of Milwaukee, bites or scratches resulting in the skin being broken, the bite/scratch should be reported to the Department of Neighborhood Services at 286-2268. After normal business hours, contact the Milwaukee Police Department 933-4444. The person reporting the bite/scratch should have the following information available:

      Address of Animal, Name and Phone Number of Animal Owner (if known)

      Name, Address, Age and Phone Number of Victim

      Location of Wound (i.e. hand, leg, face, etc.)

      Circumstances surrounding the bite/scratch

Once the inspector receives the bite report, a visit will be made to the animal owner's home. The animal will be quarantined in the home for 10-14 days starting the date of the bite. After this period of time, the inspector will release the animal from quarantine by making another visit to the animal owner's home. At each visit, the animal must be observed by the inspector. During a quarantine period, no animal shall be taken for walks, left unattended outdoors, or be allowed to leave its premises for any reason. All animals are normally quarantined in their home unless the owner requests that the animal be taken to MADACC for quarantine, the animal was loose at the time of bite and apprehended by either the Police, Humane Officers or Health Officers, or the animal's owner does not obey quarantine restrictions and this is brought to the Department of Neighborhood Service's attention.

[Return to top of Section]

ANIMAL FANCIER

Any complaints regarding the number of animal residing in a dwelling unit can be sent to the Department of Neighborhood Services' Environmental Health and Nuisance Control Section at 286-2268.

No more than 3 adult dogs and/or cats are allowed in any one dwelling unit. In single and 2-family dwelling units, a fourth or fifth dog and/or cat can reside if the owner/tenant has an animal fancier permit obtained through our office. There is a cost to obtain the Fancier Permit and an annual inspection of the dwelling unit is required. More frequent inspections may be allowed on a complaint basis. Animal fancier permits are not allowed in multiple dwelling units. Anyone violating this will be subject to prosecution. For a current list of fees for animals, go to www.city.milwaukee.gov/animalfees

[Return to top of Section]

BARKING DOGS OR OTHER ANIMAL NOISES



All animal noise complaints should be referred to the Department of Neighborhood Services (DNS). A letter stating the animal's address, the complainant's name, address and phone number and a general description of the problem must be sent to DNSNuisance and Environmental Health Division, 4001 S. 6th St., Milwaukee, WI 53221. After the DNS verifies both addresses, a warning letter will be typed. The letter will be mailed to the animal owners home along with literature and a copy of the applicable ordinance. The landlord will also be notified if necessary. The complainant will then be sent a follow-up letter informing him/her of what was sent to the animal owner along with a petition for commencement of prosecution. If the noise problem continues after the complainant receives the petition, the complainant must document dates and times that it is occurring and return it to DNS. He/she should also try to get at least one person from another household, who is bothered by the noise, to sign the petition. Once DNS receives the petition a citation will be issued. A CITATION WILL NOT BE ISSUED UNLESS THE COMPLAINANT IS WILLING TO APPEAR IN COURT. To make further complaints call DNS at 286-2268.



[Return to top of Section]


PROHIBITED AND DANGEROUS ANIMALS (s. 78-23)

Any animal which, when unprovoked, bites or inflicts bodily harm on a person, domestic pet or animal on public or private property can be declared dangerous. Any animal which chases or approaches a person in a menacing fashion or apparent attitude of attack without provocation upon the streets, sidewalks or any public grounds or on private property without the permission of the owner or person in lawful control of the property can be declared dangerous. An animal with a known propensity, tendency or disposition to attack, to cause injury to, or to otherwise threaten the safety of humans or other domestic pets or animals can be declared dangerous. (An animal shall not be deemed dangerous if it bites defending its owner or caretaker, protecting its young or another animal, defends itself against any person or animal which has tormented, assaulted or abused it, or is defending it's owner or caretaker's property against trespassers.) When an animal has been declared dangerous by the Department of Neighborhood Services, a Dangerous Animal Order will be issued to the animal owner or caretaker. Within 7 days, the owner has two options: 1) to comply with Sections 78-23-1 through 7 and 10 of the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances, or 2) have the animal destroyed by MADACC or a licensed veterinarian as pursuant to Section 78-23-11 of the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances. Sections 78-23-1 through 7 and 10 of the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances are as follows: Whenever an owner or caretaker wishes to contest an order, he or she shall, within 72 hours after receipt of the order, deliver to DNS a written objection to the order. The Department of Neighborhood Services then convenes the dangerous animal hearing panel.

Special rules for owners of pit bulls and ROTTWEILER have recently been exacted in the City of Milwaukee. Learn more about this ordinance here ->Pit bull Brochure DNS-360.pdf

[Return to top of Section]

DOG/CAT LICENSING

All dogs and cats over the age of 5 months, residing in the City of Milwaukee, must be licensed annually. Lack of a dog/cat license for your pet could result in you receiving a citation for each unlicensed pet. Anyone interested in obtaining a dog/cat license should call the Milwaukee Area Domestic Animal Control Commission (MADACC) 414-649-8640.  For a current list of fees for animals, go to www.city.milwaukee.gov/animalfees

Dog and Cat License fees page.

[Return to top of Section]

WILD ANIMAL OR STRAYS CAPTURE

The City no Longer performs animal capture services. All requests for capture of nuisance animals such as skunks, raccoons, stray dogs or cats, etc. should be referred to an animal control service or pest control service. Stray dogs or cats, etc. should be referred to the new Milwaukee Area Domestic Animal Control Commission MADACC. It can be reached at 414-649-8640.

[Return to top of Section]

DOGS/CATS RUNNING AT LARGE AND LITTERING

All complaints regarding dogs and cats running at large and littering should be phoned in to 286-2268. The exact address of the violating animal and the complainant's name, address and phone number will be needed. After the addresses have been verified by the clerk, a warning letter mailed to the animal owner's home. The complainant will then be mailed a follow-up letter and a petition for commencement of prosecution. If the problem persists after the complainant receives the petition, the complainant must document dates and time get it to DNS. He/she should try to get at least one person from another household bothered by the problem to sign the petition. Once DNS receives the petition a citation will be issued.  A CITATION WILL NOT BE ISSUED UNLESS THE COMPLAINANT IS WILLING TO APPEAR IN THE CITY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE. To make further complaints call DNS at 286-2268.

If a stray animal is running loose at the present time, call MADACC at 649-8640 or call your local Police District.

[Return to top of Section]

FARM ANIMALS IN THE CITY

The following animals are prohibited within the city either temporarily or permanently: live bees, fowl, cows, cattle, horses, sheep, swine, goats, chickens, ducks, turkeys, geese or any other domesticated livestock. Exceptions are places approved by the Commissioner of Health for slaughtering, educational purposes, research purposes and for circuses or similar recreational events.

[Return to top of Section]

PET SHOPS, GROOMING ESTABLISHMENTS, KENNELS, STABLES

Any complaints regarding the above listed establishments should be directed to the Department of Neighborhood Services' Environmental Health and Nuisance Control Section at 286-2268. The above establishments are subject to yearly inspections, or more frequent inspections on a complaint basis. For a current list of fees for animals, go to www.city.milwaukee.gov/animalfees

[Return to top of Section]

ANIMAL KEEPER FEES

For a current list of fees for animals, go to www.city.milwaukee.gov/animalfees

[Return to top of Section]


PROHIBITED DANGEROUS ANIMAL (s.78-25)

An animal that is determined to be a prohibited dangerous animal under s. 78-25 of the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances include:

Any animal that kills a domestic pet or animal without provocation while off of the owner or caretaker's property.

Any animal that inflicts substantial bodily harm on a person without provocation on public or private property.

Any animal brought into Milwaukee from another Wisconsin city, village, town or county in which it has been declared dangerous or vicious, has been banished from the city, village, town or county or has been ordered to be destroyed.

Any dog that is subject to being destroyed under s. 174.02(3) of the Wisconsin Statutes.

Any dog trained, owned or harbored for the purpose of dog fighting.

When an animal has been declared a prohibited dangerous animal, a Prohibited Dangerous Animal Order will be issued on the animal owner. The animal must either be removed from the City of Milwaukee within 7 days of receipt of order or destroyed. The order may be appealed in writing within 72 hours of receipt of order to the Department of Neighborhood Services.

[Return to top of Section]

WILD/EXOTIC ANIMALS BROUGHT INTO CITY

Any person wanting to bring a horse, cow, wild cat, etc. into the city for a private party, special event, petting zoo, festival, etc. shall submit in writing to the Department of Neighborhood Services' Environmental Health and Nuisance Control Section a letter providing the following information:

How will the animal(s) be brought into the City and who will bring them in?

Where is the animal(s) usually kept?

How long will the animal(s) be here?

How will the animal(s) be held?

How will they take the animal(s) back?

When is the animal to enter and leave the City Limits?

They must guarantee us that the animal(s) will have food, water and shelter. Animal(s) must be kept 100 feet from a food service area or where food is being prepared. Feces must be picked up routinely, kept in covered containers and disposed of properly. If the animal bites, the bite must be reported to Environmental Health Section of DNS and also to the jurisdiction of where the animal resides. For more information call the Department of Neighborhood Services at 286-2268.

[Return to top of Section]


[Return to top of Page]



PEST CONTROL

The Department of Neighborhood Services can provide information, assistance and enforcement on pest issues.


    * Commercial Pesticide Applicator Registration
    * Migrating Roaches
    * Pigeons
    * Rats

[Return to Top of Page]


COMMERCIAL PESTICIDE APPLICATOR REGISTRATION

Any person who applies pesticides within the City of Milwaukee for profit must be registered with the Department of Neighborhood Services' Nuisance and Environmental Health Section. There is an annual registration of $55 plus a $27 late fee per person, if applicable. For more information or for a pre-application call 286-2268. Anyone caught applying pesticides in the City of Milwaukee without the City of Milwaukee's Commercial Pesticide Applicator Registration Certificate will be issued a municipal citation.

Click here and go to the FORMS page of the DNS website to download the Preapplication form for Commercial Pesticide Applicator.


Return to Top of Section

MIGRATING ROACHES

Migrating roach complaints should be directed to the Department of Neighborhood Service' Nuisance and Environmental Health Section at 286-2268. Migrating roaches are roaches seen moving from one home to another. An exact address must be given to the receptionist at the time of the complaint. The inspector will investigate and if confirmed, a one-time pesticide application will be made to the exterior of the property.

Return to Top of Section

PIGEONS

All pigeon complaints should be referred to the Department of Neighborhood Services' Nuisance and Environmental Health Section at 286-2268. For information on how to prevent pigeons from roosting on your own property, an instructional pamphlet is available for city of Milwaukee residents. For neighboring problems with roosting pigeons, an exact address is needed before the inspector can investigate and if necessary issue orders to pigeon proof the home. The Department of Neighborhood Services does not abate pigeons.

PROBLEMS WITH PIGEONS?-DNS-305.pdf A review of what problems pigeons create, how they breed, roost and spread other potential problems. Contains diagrams on how to protect your property from the birds, locate bird feeders, and how to minimize their negative impact. Also included is the code about creating harborages for nuisance animals.
RATS

All complaints about exterior rat activity should be called in to the Department of Neighborhood Services at 286-2268. An exact address must be given to the receptionist at the time of the complaint. An inspector will look for active rat infestations at that location and issue an order on the property owner if an infestation is found. The order instructs the property owner to either abate the nuisance themselves or hire an exterminator. When the inspector re-inspects 7 days later, if no abatement has been started, the inspector will place bait. The inspector will continue to place bait until there is no longer any acceptance. The cost of the abatement will then be placed on the property owner's tax bill at the end of the year.

Rats on the interior will be handled by the Residential Building Code Complaint section by calling 286-2268.

----------


## BPelizabeth

well good thing they excluded reptiles in the scratching thing...lol....my beardie and skink would be in a world of trouble....lol.... :Cool:

----------


## kitedemon

The question I have is what are they going to do with the seized animals? Does anyone whom is now responsible to look after them know how to do so correctly? There must have been a vast infrastructure to maintain proper habitats for them did they take that too? I bet that they will kill a whole bunch of them.

----------

_loonunit_ (05-14-2010)

----------


## Brunoheart

> PROHIBITED AND DANGEROUS ANIMALS (s. 78-23)
> 
> Any animal which, when unprovoked, bites or inflicts bodily harm on a person, domestic pet or animal on public or private property can be declared dangerous. Any animal which chases or approaches a person in a menacing fashion or apparent attitude of attack without provocation upon the streets, sidewalks or any public grounds or on private property without the permission of the owner or person in lawful control of the property can be declared dangerous. An animal with a known propensity, tendency or disposition to attack, to cause injury to, or to otherwise threaten the safety of humans or other domestic pets or animals can be declared dangerous. (An animal shall not be deemed dangerous if it bites defending its owner or caretaker, protecting its young or another animal, defends itself against any person or animal which has tormented, assaulted or abused it, or is defending it's owner or caretaker's property against trespassers.) When an animal has been declared dangerous by the Department of Neighborhood Services, a Dangerous Animal Order will be issued to the animal owner or caretaker. Within 7 days, the owner has two options: 1) to comply with Sections 78-23-1 through 7 and 10 of the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances, or 2) have the animal destroyed by MADACC or a licensed veterinarian as pursuant to Section 78-23-11 of the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances. Sections 78-23-1 through 7 and 10 of the Milwaukee Code of Ordinances are as follows: Whenever an owner or caretaker wishes to contest an order, he or she shall, within 72 hours after receipt of the order, deliver to DNS a written objection to the order. The Department of Neighborhood Services then convenes the dangerous animal hearing panel.



Charges should be brought against the officers that shot those dogs due to the above underlined statement in red.  What a shame.....

----------

bamagecko76 (10-21-2010),_jsmorphs2_ (05-14-2010),_loonunit_ (05-14-2010)

----------


## BallsUnlimited

> Charges should be brought against the officers that shot those dogs due to the above underlined statement in red.  What a shame.....


agreed my lawyer would be on there ass like a fly on poop

----------

_CoolioTiffany_ (05-16-2010)

----------


## BPelizabeth

I agree as it states right there.  I was just downstairs thinking about this and thought.....couldn't they of tasered the dogs instead of shooting them....I mean really.  And what does the animals have to do with sexual charges??  Maybe I am wrong but when you serve a search warrant aren't you suppose to only take stuff that is pertinent to the case???

----------


## Sariel

> I agree as it states right there.  I was just downstairs thinking about this and thought.....couldn't they of tasered the dogs instead of shooting them....I mean really.  And what does the animals have to do with sexual charges??  Maybe I am wrong but when you serve a search warrant aren't you suppose to only take stuff that is pertinent to the case???


I can understand the potential need to shoot before tazer, generally they probably have guns in hands and tazers would take  time to reach for. That said, they had to have known there were dogs on the property before hand. Why wasnt animal control called to come and remove the dogs properly? Why werent tazers ready when they opened the doors as Im sure the dogs had to be barking up a storm once they did the obligatory knock before barreling in. 
  Id also have to agree that while Im not a cop, I have never heard of staging a raid on a building because someone was accused of sexual assault. Theres alot more to this than we're being told. Im trying to reserve anger till all the facts are out, but the news reporters twittering their mock concern for the crowd about all the "dangerous animals" made me want to rage all over that station. 
 There was something said about considerations for possible animal neglect and federal charges about animals being shipped across state lines? which is the reason Im assuming they excused themselves to remove all the animals, but Im willing to bet someone with a widely known reputation like Mr Cullen hasn't been moving exotics illegally.

----------


## BPelizabeth

> but Im willing to bet someone with a widely known reputation like Mr Cullen hasn't been moving exotics illegally.


right there with you on that one......and someone well known for working with rescues I am willing to bet had his ducks in a row with licensing.

----------

_Sariel_ (05-14-2010)

----------


## twan

WOW i feel for his pets and family and they shot his:cens0r:TBM for what sad case my lawer would eat that case up.

----------


## Sariel

> right there with you on that one......and someone well known for working with rescues I am willing to bet had his ducks in a row with licensing.


Im going to watch how this unfolds now that I know about it. Im interested in seeing what the details are and who is really at fault.

----------


## wilomn

> right there with you on that one......and someone well known for working with rescues I am willing to bet had his ducks in a row with licensing.


Hopefully.

Until more facts are available though, well, it's just speculation. My roses are speculated enough for now.

----------


## Kaorte

Wow...that is just so sad...  :Sad:   :Sad:  

I don't even know what to say.

----------


## bsd13

The police were serving a warrant for a sexual assault according to this article
http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2...ssault_pro.php

Also I asked a friend who is a police officer and he said during a warrant raid it is pretty much standard ops that any dog doing anything except lying on the couch is going to get shot dead. They take absolutely no chance of an officer being injured.

It sounds like they served a warrant for one thing and found other law violations relating to the reptiles not that they went in looking for reptiles. Be interesting to hear both sides of the story. In there somewhere is the truth.

----------


## BuckeyeBalls

> Also I asked a friend who is a police officer and he said during a warrant raid it is pretty much standard ops that any dog doing anything except lying on the couch is going to get shot dead. They take absolutely no chance of an officer being injured.


See i dont agree with that. When a cop executes a no knock search warrant idc how much u trained your dog to not bark/growl when some1 knocks on the door but when they BUST down ur door its the dogs nature to bark or growl. I dont agree with they "HEY THAT DOG IS MOVING SHOOT IT!!!"

----------

_JeffFlanagan_ (08-30-2010),_joepythons_ (05-14-2010),_minguss_ (06-15-2010)

----------


## BigBlue56

This is sad and just goes to show you the country we really live in.

Those poor dogs.. Not to mention those "dangerous animals" are going to be mis handled and you can BET a good percentage of them will be dead within a month or two.  

Does anyone know Terry personally or people he is close too?  I cant wait to hear more.

I hope he did nothing wrong so he can sue the [****ens] out of those cops.

----------


## wolfy-hound

Actually the "dangerous animals" thing is to DEFINE a dangerous animal, it doesn't mean the police cannot shoot a dog that is behaving in a threatening manner.  It means that if said dog does bite someone while defending it's owner's home, you cannot classify it as "dangerous" and have it impounded.

If any animal is threatening an officer, they are well within their rights to shoot it.  Tasering a dog is usually not reccomended by any agency.  So if they went in on a legitimate warrent(which it seems they did) then they are within their rights to shoot the dogs if they were threatening, which they very well could have been, being mastiffs in their own territory.

I have no ideas of why the police would seize the animals though.  Is there a law or ordinace against keeping those species, keeping any certain number of animals, or running a business in that particular space?

If they just saw all the animals, assumed that they were not legal, and took them... then I would hope the animals would be returned.  It's really stressful on the animals to be moved and who knows what sort of place they are being held in, and what care they are getting.  I hope that the people who seized them had some sort of legitimate reason or that the animals are returned quickly so that they can get proper care.

----------


## bsd13

> This is sad and just goes to show you the country we really live in.
> 
> Those poor dogs.. Not to mention those "dangerous animals" are going to be mis handled and you can BET a good percentage of them will be dead within a month or two.  
> 
> Does anyone know Terry personally or people he is close too?  I cant wait to hear more.
> 
> I hope he did nothing wrong so he can sue the [****ens] out of those cops.


What's he going to sue the cops for? Doing their jobs? Officers don't have the luxury of sitting around the squad room debating the merits of a warrant. They are told to serve it and they do. Nothing more, nothing less. 

I don't agree with shooting the dogs. Don't agree at all. But the fact is someone did something that gave a court a reason to issue a warrant sending them to that location. If no law had been broken, no warrant, no dead dogs.

There's more news coming out of this:




> Hundreds of mice and rats blanketed the basement floor of a building on Milwaukee's south side where an estimated 200 exotic animals were housed, according to a police document released Friday.
> 
> Many of the animals - ranging from alligators and crocodiles to snakes and turtles - were unable to turn around because the containers in which they were kept were too small and filled with waste, the arrest report says.
> 
> Jane E. Flint, who told police she lived in the building at 2323 S. 13th St., was arrested Wednesday and is in custody at the Milwaukee County Jail. She is being held on suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species, according to the arrest report.
> 
> Source - and continues


It's also worth noting that they haven't found Terry Cullen yet. Surely he's heard about this by now...

----------

_Clear_ (05-15-2010)

----------


## alittleFREE

He's that guy that's in on all the Chinese Alligator conservation, right? 

Whatever happened, I feel bad. I'm not gonna jump to conclusions without knowing the exact situation. 

I do have to say that I would be surprised to find out that he mistreated his animals. However, it wouldn't be the first that I've been surprised, so who knows.

----------


## wolfy-hound

So it's implied by the media that there was violations of endangered or threatened species and that animals were mistreated.

Maybe-so, maybe-no.  Were the "endangered species" the crocs he owned legitmitately and the people doing the raid assumed they were an endangered species?  Were the animals mistreated by being kept in appropriately sized housing, or the cages might have had some waste in them, rather than being stuffed into a small box full of poo?

We don't know. We weren't there. We don't have pics.

I distrust the media reports in general.  After all, we've all seen the articles about the "5 foot ball python that could have eaten the owner"  or the "20 foot venomous cornsnake".  Not to mention the 100,000 burmese that are all released pets in the everglades from irresponsible owners that drove all the way to the tip of florida strictly to turn their venomous people-eating ecological disasters loose so they can invade michigan during winter.

Waiting to hear, and hoping there will be a good outcome of some sort.

BTW, I haven't found where the actual charges were stated... is that somewhere, or is it vague?

----------

Foschi Exotic Serpents (05-14-2010),jfreels (05-15-2010),_joepythons_ (05-14-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> BTW, I haven't found where the actual charges were stated... is that somewhere, or is it vague?


According to police statements it was a search warrant in conjunction with a sexual abuse investigation. The accusation of animal abuse is a result of the execution of that search warrant. Not the reason for it.

----------


## Christine

I dont trust the media either. But in regards to the shooting of dogs by police issuing a warrant. I dug up this article stating your 4th amendment rights. Since dogs are considered property. they vary from state by state. 
Here is a small snippet and a link to the full thing
III.  FOURTH AMENDMENT SEIZURES/TAKINGS

     The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable seizures, shall not be violated . . .


U.S. CONST. Amend. 4

     All too often incidents involving shooting of pets occur when police are executing search warrants, which bring them directly onto the property or into the homes of the pet owners.  Direct confrontations with pets can occur and the pets are usually the losers when they are injured or killed by the officers.  This brings us to the question of whether the injury or destruction of a pet can be classified as an unlawful seizure in violation of the pet owners rights to be free from unreasonable seizures of their property under the Fourth Amendment.

     Pets are classified as personal property under state statutes; however, a reading of the U.S. Constitutions Fourth Amendment does not include the term "personal property."  Does this mean that seizures of personal property are not covered?  Luckily for the pet owner, the answer is no.  The Supreme Court has held that personal property is considered an effect for purposes of being considered a seizure under the Fourth Amendment.  The Supreme Court has stated:

     . . . [I]n the context of personal property . . . our cases reveal some general principles regarding seizures.  In the ordinary case, the Court has viewed a seizure of personal property as per se unreasonable within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment unless it is accomplished pursuant to a judicial warrant issued upon probable cause and particularly describing the items to be seized.

United States v. Place, 469 U.S. 696, 701 (1983).  Further, the Supreme Court has stated unequivocally that a seizure of personal property occurs when there is some meaningful interference with an individuals possessory interests in that property.  United States v. Jacobsen, 466 U.S. 109, 113 (1984).  The destruction of property is considered meaningful interference constituting a seizure under the Fourth Amendment because the destruction of property by state officials poses as much a threat, if not more, to peoples right to be secure . . . in their effects as does the physical taking of them.  Id. at 124-5.

     Another question to be asked  does the Fourth Amendment only cover seizures of personal property that occur during a criminal search?  Again, the Supreme Court has clarified this issue and stated that the reason why an officer might enter onto a persons property or into a persons home does not vitiate the question of whether a seizure has occurred and whether the Fourth Amendment applies.  The reason can be for searches and seizures relating to both criminal and civil issues.  In our view, the reason why an officer might enter a house or effectuate a seizure is wholly irrelevant to the threshold question whether the Amendment applies.  What matters is the intrusion on the peoples security from governmental interference.  Sobal v. Cook County, 506 U.S. 56, 69 (1992)(emphasis added).

     Generally speaking, destruction of property that is not necessary to a law officials duties is considered an unreasonable seizure of property under the Fourth Amendment.  The courts, based on the individual facts of the case, will determine whether the destruction of the property was reasonable.  Although the courts will decide the reasonableness of a seizure on a case by case basis, the person considering filing a lawsuit for a pets death must have a general idea of whether the officers conduct in their particular case was unreasonable.  Addressing the issues relating to immunity can accomplish this.

IV.  IMMUNITY

     Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and the laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress . . .

42 U.S.C. § 1983.

A.     Municipal Immunity


     Common practice when filing a lawsuit against a police officer is to also name as co-defendants the police departments and the municipality employing the officer.  Although these entities are not immune from having suits filed against them, they are initially immune from liability unless that immunity can be defeated -- defeating that immunity is an extremely tough hurdle to clear.  Only if there is a direct casual link between a municipal policy or custom and the alleged constitutional deprivation can municipality immunity be defeated.  City of Canton v. Harris, 489 U.S. 378, 385 (1989).   

     The primary case regarding municipality immunity is Monell v. Department of Social Services of the City of New York, 436 U.S. 658 (1978) which disallowed suits filed against a municipality on a respondent superior theory but allowed suits where the government has established a policy or permitted a custom which deprives individuals of their rights.  The Supreme Court has clarified in later cases that this does not mean that a municipality cannot be sued under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 only that the municipality would not be liable unless a policy or custom caused the constitutional injury. A jury must be able to conclude that the actions arose from at least an informal governmental custom.

     Unfortunately, there are currently no cases relating to the shooting of pets where municipality immunity has been successfully defeated.  Although the issue of improper training has been raised in several cases involving pet shootings, under Canton only when failure to train amounts to deliberate indifference to the rights of persons with whom the police come into contact can immunity be defeated.  Canton, 489 U.S. at 388.  Deliberate indifference means that the municipality must make a deliberate or conscious choice to ignore peoples constitutional rights.  Errors or intentional behaviors on the part of an officer do not elevate to the deliberate indifference threshold for the municipality to have its immunity defeated.

     It should be noted that while a municipality will probably have immunity for liability in the case of a pet shooting, it does not automatically follow that the individual officer(s) involved in the shooting will also have immunity.
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/d...ootingpets.htm

----------

_minguss_ (06-15-2010)

----------


## wolfy-hound

So with all the legal speach....
Officers when executing a legal warrant can indeed shoot the dogs.  The owner can choose to sue for the value of the dogs, but it is not a given that they will be awarded anything by the judge.
Which to my mind is absolutely reasonable.  If police are doing their job in trying to execute a warrant(whether a search warrant, seizure warrant, or arrest warrant) they should be able to protect themselves from aggressive animals.  With the laws interpeted as that article says, the owner can sue for the value of the animals should they be killed, but the judge will be able to say yea or nay about whether the officers were in the right or the owner deserves recompenses in each individual case.

Reading legalese gives me headaches, but that's what it seems to say for real life incidents.

Of course, anyone can sue anyone for any reason whatsoever.  That's a given.  It's whether they have a chance of winning, or if the case will be dismissed immediately as unlawful or frivialous by the judge.

----------


## bsd13

> I dont trust the media either. But in regards to the shooting of dogs by police issuing a warrant. I dug up this article stating your 4th amendment rights. Since dogs are considered property. they vary from state by state. 
> Here is a small snippet and a link to the full thing
> 
>      It should be noted that while a municipality will probably have immunity for liability in the case of a pet shooting, it does not automatically follow that the individual officer(s) involved in the shooting will also have immunity.
> http://www.animallaw.info/articles/d...ootingpets.htm


What's really sad is that the individual officers are probably the only ones who should have immunity, not the municipality. The officers are doing what they've been told to do and trained to do and then the municipalities hang them out to dry.

I can see it looking something like this:



> "We never told Officer Smith to kill any dogs"
> 
> "But you did review and approve the police departments use of force guidelines concerning household pets, right?"
> 
> "Yes, but..."
> 
> "And Officer Smith was following those guidelines, right?"
> 
> "Yes, but..."
> ...

----------


## Sariel

Actually Wisconsin either has, or is in the process of removing pets from the "personal property status".  

 Just did a quick check and AB793 and SB580 are not passed yet. Its written by the HSUS too, go figure.

----------


## Adam Chandler

Oh my god! The reptiles were is plastic tubs?!? Thats sounds terrible! He was keeping animals that are not normally found in Milwaukee? That monster!
Thank goodness that Milwaukee police and animal control sprung into action and saved the lives of hundreds of the children in the neighborhood from the scary reptiles and dogs!


But seriously. if no one knew that the animals had been there for decades wouldn't that mean he has been taking proper care of them and not letting them escape?
I for one am hoping he gets a good lawsuit against the city for this ridiculousness.

----------


## wolfy-hound

AR groups want pets removed from "personal property" so that they can sue on the 'pet's behalf.  Think that's far-fetched? Overseas somewhere a AR group is sueing a fisherman on behalf of the FISH... because he took "overly long" to land the fish resulting in what they termed inhumane treatment.  

I'm kind of hoping it's in England, they have a lot of wacky stuff that seems to be reported over there that never morphs into real life issues.

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Well, I'm just trying to remain open minded for someone who has helped many exotic's in the past. I do wish things like this were video taped for legal and media purposes. Much of the time when someone says enclosures were too small or full of feces they are exaggerating (SP?). When it comes to reptiles that is. The general public has no idea how to properly house and care for these animals. Our "plastic boxes" and tubs would seem wrong to many simply due to their ignorance of the animal in question. 

I have wondered while reading all of this if he actually did neglect the animals. I have wondered if he actually did commit a sex crime. Both are possible. I have also wondered if someone set him up. If the organizations trying to get the snake bans passed are releasing snakes and then reporting it to gain more negative press for us, whats stopping them from going further? You have to wonder if someone who is a part of the HSUS/PETA crew knew he had all these animals and came up with a way to get him in trouble and have him and the hobby negativly plastered all over the media. 

I personally hope this man is not the bad guy they are trying to make him out to be. If it turns out he did commit a crime thats terrible news for all of us. The worst part is that no one would know who this guy was if it weren't for the animals. It would have been on the local news of that area and that would be that. The animals makes it *all* of our problem. The media will make sure of that. In the meantime, I don't believe we will _ever_ know the truth about the conditions the animals were being kept. If the conditions were good they would never say it. That would look bad for their criminal case.

----------


## bsd13

> But seriously. if no one knew that the animals had been there for decades wouldn't that mean he has been taking proper care of them and not letting them escape?
> I for one am hoping he gets a good lawsuit against the city for this ridiculousness.


I doubt the city would be taking up thousands of man hours to remove those animals from the property if there wasn't a reason.

As far as a lawsuit, for what? Taking his animals out of his care? He's not even there. According to the news reports the police are looking for him.

----------


## joepythons

> I doubt the city would be taking up thousands of man hours to remove those animals from the property if there wasn't a reason.
> 
> As far as a lawsuit, for what? Taking his animals out of his care? He's not even there. According to the news reports the police are looking for him.


So just because no one was in the building its ok to remove his reptiles? You had better never leave your home then  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .It would not be the first time these type of people over exaggerated things  :Mad: .

----------


## bsd13

> So just because no one was in the building its ok to remove his reptiles? You had better never leave your home then .It would not be the first time these type of people over exaggerated things .


No. It's ok to remove the reptiles *if* they were being kept in poor conditions. I'm assuming experts have, for reasons as yet unannounced, decided that the conditions are poor. I don't get the impression that the police decided that the animals had to be removed, but rather people who know something about animals and husbandry. Even the zoo is involved. If anyone has an idea of what is and isn't suitable conditions for reptiles to live in it's the zoo.

----------


## wolfy-hound

The news report said a "search warrant".  So what was the reason behind the search warrant? Where is the report of the sexual abuse warrant? Has any police or official report been released as to what charges this stems from?

Just because he wasn't there, doesn't mean that the animals were not being cared for.  After seeing the video(it's finally working for me), I've seen him at shows.  Seemed like a very nice man, very much caring for the chinese alligators and conservation.  Since it was a house, it could be they were not zoned for certain species.. we just don't know, because no one has released information that I've seen yet.

----------


## bsd13

> The news report said a "search warrant".  So what was the reason behind the search warrant? Where is the report of the sexual abuse warrant? Has any police or official report been released as to what charges this stems from?
> 
> Just because he wasn't there, doesn't mean that the animals were not being cared for.  After seeing the video(it's finally working for me), I've seen him at shows.  Seemed like a very nice man, very much caring for the chinese alligators and conservation.  Since it was a house, it could be they were not zoned for certain species.. we just don't know, because no one has released information that I've seen yet.


2nd to last paragraph. Source

Exact details haven't been made public that I've been able to find.




> Police discovered the animals at the house while executing a search warrant as part of an investigation into a sexual assault complaint, police said. Police have not publicly identified the target of the sexual assault allegation.


Other sources:
http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2...ssault_pro.php
http://www.aolnews.com/nation/articl...tiles/19478050

----------


## Sariel

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37134245/


This is the latest I can find on the matter, posted 13hours ago. 
 It still says no charges have been filed and the sexual assault charge is not only  alleged, but no one will confirm that Mr Cullen is even the one accused. 

 I find it interesting that they felt the need to invade his home and his residence on this charge. I know he also has property in FL so its possible thats where he is while all this is happening. 

 I hate to be so caught up in something that doesn't really involve me, but considering the potential impact on our industry I just cant help it. Im also interested in the potential for bias profiling causing all of this. The media certainly isnt being very friendly towards him, I love the fact that the word hoarder is coming up again in this. Its all so exhausting :/.

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Something about this whole warrant thing doesnt fit.. It was an alleged sex crime warrant? Not a drug or illegal firearm warrant? Since when do the police break into your home on a sex warrant? They pick you up at work, in your car, when you are at home etc.. There would have been nothing in his home to sieze unless it was connected to a computer sex crime. Then they would take the computer. Something is missing here. In any other case we would have more info.

----------


## alittleFREE

To me, it seems weird that they would confiscate ALL of the animals that he kept, if the problem was only with the endangered ones that he allegedly was keeping without proper permits?

This whole thing is bothering me, too. Really just because I've seen a lot of videos of Cullen prior to this and he seemed to have a true passion and care for the animals, so like I said I would be surprised to hear that he was indeed mistreating them. However, some people do surprise you so I guess you never know.




> Something about this whole warrant thing doesnt fit.. It was an alleged sex crime warrant? Not a drug or illegal firearm warrant? Since when do the police break into your home on a sex warrant? They pick you up at work, in your car, when you are at home etc.. There would have been nothing in his home to sieze unless it was connected to a computer sex crime. Then they would take the computer. Something is missing here. In any other case we would have more info.


I agree, this sexual abuse warrant has me a bit baffled too. Especially because I believe it's been made clear that no one was actually charged with sexual abuse, it was just 'alleged' which to me sounds like they were just investigating it. In which case, why in the world would they issue a search warrant of the facility for that?

I don't want to jump to conclusions but I would not be completely shocked if it turned out to be some sort of a set up.

----------


## bsd13

Here's some of the city of Milwaukee's animal ordinances.
http://www.milwaukee.gov/Env#Anchor-Various-49575

And here's another news story about it.
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93816569.html

----------


## capitalB

how big/long would a 500lb snake have to be?? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## bsd13

I think I found the charge/reason for removing the animals.

http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100...,7900035.story



> One woman is now in custody facing charges of having endangered species without proper permits.

----------


## mechnut450

it all sounds fishy  like he was being set up.  specially with the   sex assualt part. i bet some one   got wind of the warehouse (another hsus/peta ) person and arranged a fake report to havea search done .

I say 9/10  with the bifg reptile showes  he  at one of them and does not even know, or is out in the rural area were acell does not work..

----------


## Aerial

Ooh lookie, I found him at a show. 6:20
YouTube - SnakeBytesTV "Reptiles Invade Chicago"

It angers me a lot to hear about this. More weight for congress to get our snakes banned. 

But uh, the articles said they saw animals running loose, cages filled with filth, majority of the animals _covered in mold_extremely foul smell, etc. My question -Is the guy keeping them incorrectly, is this lady or whoever is living in the place keeping them badly without him knowing, or is the media blowing this way out of proportion?

----------


## BPelizabeth

> No. It's ok to remove the reptiles *if* they were being kept in poor conditions. I'm assuming experts have, for reasons as yet unannounced, decided that the conditions are poor. I don't get the impression that the police decided that the animals had to be removed, but rather people who know something about animals and husbandry. Even the zoo is involved. If anyone has an idea of what is and isn't suitable conditions for reptiles to live in it's the zoo.


even the so called "experts" talk about "oh no...snakes in tubs" yada yada yada.  Just because it is a zoo doesn't mean they are experts on all reptiles!!

----------

_joepythons_ (05-15-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> even the so called "experts" talk about "oh no...snakes in tubs" yada yada yada.  Just because it is a zoo doesn't mean they are experts on all reptiles!!


I don't get the impression this has anything to do with snakes in tubs. Floors covered in feces and not licensed to have some of the animals that were there is quite a bit different if it turns out to be true.

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

Now that I see that video I remember that guy. That was the Oct show last year. With the way he was at the show I find it very hard to believe he was neglecting animals. I reached my hand out to touch the Chinese alligator right after a kid had touched it and Terry quickly backed out of reach. He wouldn't let anyone touch it unless they used hand sanitizer in front of him. He was very adamant about that alligator.  The report said feces on the floor? I thought I only saw a part where it said rodents on the floor of one level of the building.

----------


## Vilenica

If the warehouse had an ounce of unsanitary conditions they would have been wearing hazmat outfits! This looks like a bad warrant setup to me.  Whether its a good or bad warrant I hope Mr.Cullen sews there a's and wins for shooting the dogs.

----------

_BPelizabeth_ (05-15-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> Now that I see that video I remember that guy. That was the Oct show last year. With the way he was at the show I find it very hard to believe he was neglecting animals. I reached my hand out to touch the Chinese alligator right after a kid had touched it and Terry quickly backed out of reach. He wouldn't let anyone touch it unless they used hand sanitizer in front of him. He was very adamant about that alligator.  The report said feces on the floor? I thought I only saw a part where it said rodents on the floor of one level of the building.


These are the news reports coming out. I can't speak to how he handled the alligator at the show. He wouldn't be the first animal caretaker that let things get out of control. It's not unheard of that someone goes from advocate to hoarder and then they can't keep up with things. Don't know if that's what has happened here, but it's possible.




> "It wasn't a real safe environment," said DNR Conservation Warden Myles Gervis. "The floor's slippery. There's animal waste all over the place."


http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93816569.html




> The first police officers to enter the building encountered a repulsive scene, according to a report summarizing Flint's arrest.
> 
> "There was an overpowering stench of ammonia consistent with urine and feces throughout the residence," the report says.
> 
> "Dead animal carcasses were in close proximity to live animals, and animal waste was observed throughout the residence."
> 
> Mold and fungus were growing "on a vast majority of the animals," according to the report.
> 
> Police and other officials found the animals inside the building while executing a search warrant Wednesday, the report says.


http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/93800689.html

----------


## bsd13

> If the warehouse had an ounce of unsanitary conditions they would have been wearing hazmat outfits!


Unsanitary doesn't automatically mean it rises to the level of requiring hazmat suits. It just means it's unacceptable or below standards for animals.




> This looks like a bad warrant setup to me.  Whether its a good or bad warrant I hope Mr.Cullen sews there a's and wins for shooting the dogs.


I doubt it's a bad warrant. I'm pretty confident that we'll find a judge issued it. A legally seated judge. 

As far as the dogs. Sucks they died but nothing will come of it. It's standard op. when police are dealing with dogs in that kind of a situation. Happens everyday all over the country multiple times a day. No knocks, traffic stops, etc. We just don't hear about them.

----------


## BPelizabeth

well 2 poos on the floor and they tend to go overboard.  Many ppl have lizards that they let run around ...especially in that setting.  We have a local store here...they let their tegu go where he may.  They also have their iguana that is loose in the store.  They could defecate anywhere...and bam.  As far as mice...if you breed them in large numbers chances are something could get loose.  

Look I am not making excuses for anyone....however it is time and time again that the news blows things out of proportion.  It is not beyond Peta to edit things or to set ppl up for failure.  If it was an honest organization....with honest ppl working for them...I would never jump to these types of conclusions.  But lets remember....Peta also funds an organization that blows up research labs.  Proven in their financials!!  The money went to the leaders father!!!!  Is it really that much of a stretch that they set ppl up.  And look at that report...is it really that much of a stretch that the news organization makes a bigger deal out of it and influences ppl that it was a terrible situation and a danger to the public.  

All in all we are all at risk....little or big.  All I need is one phone call and I bet I would not only have the HOA at my house and animal control and etc.  I only have 7 reptiles and 2 large dogs.....and I am anal with keeping them....but walk in on any given day....though cleaned daily...and I bet you will find some poo in their enclosure.  And anyone can say snakes kept in plastic tubs...egads.  They untrained person would be agast.

----------

_Christine_ (05-15-2010),jfreels (05-16-2010),_minguss_ (06-15-2010),_Sariel_ (05-15-2010)

----------


## bsd13

I don't see how this could possibly be a peta setup if what the news is reporting is true.

In order for it to be a setup they would have had to found a willing dupe to falsely report a sexual assault and give the police enough information to help them convince a judge to issue a search warrant. They also would have had to get inside the building and trash it, thrown feces around, planted unlicensed animals in there, and "covered" the floor with dead rodents. Among whatever else has been found.

I don't know Terry Cullen, never met the guy and have only seen a few quotes attributed to him and a couple of video clips so my opinion of what is known is only based on the news reports concerning this particular issue. And as much as I can't stand peta I don't see how they would pull off what is alleged.

Eventually they'll find Terry Cullen and we'll get to hear his side of the story. I have an opinion on what he will say, but I don't see a need to put words in his mouth at this point. Regardless of what happens or has happened I think we all wish him and his reptiles well.

----------


## wolfy-hound

First, you'd be assuming the media has it's facts correct.  That's a big assumption right there when the story involves reptiles.
Second, Peta only has to feed the media reports, they don't have to go trash the place and throw dead rodents around.  They only have to twist things.  The building was 2 or 3 stories high? "Rodents found on one floor of the building" gets turned to "rodents found on the floor in the building".  Frozen feeder rodents in freezers, or thawed to be fed to animals sometime soon(and let's face it with a huge collection there's liable to be feeding going on most days) gets turned into "dead animals in proximinty to live ones."

It's all spin.  How do you say it? What wording do you use? What can you imply, that later you can innocently shrug your shoulders and say "Well what I said was xx, they just took it wrong.."

Not that I'm saying peta DID that.. or that the media has all of it wrong... but we don't know, and it is possible for the wrong spin to make a normal situation out to be a horrible situation.

If the woman was keeping the endangered species illegally, could it be she was caring for animals that Cullen owns rightfully with licenses?  Could be.  Or she could have illegal animals she isn't licensed for.  We don't know yet.  Most likely the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

----------

_Beardedragon_ (05-21-2010)

----------


## bsd13

I'm not assuming anything about the media. They could everything entirely wrong. Quite possible, perhaps even likely.

I am considering a few facts at this point however:

1) Even if this was a peta setup or spin of some kind the city of Milwaukee is spending thousands of man hours removing the collection, moving it, etc. They wouldn't be doing that without a good reason. 

2) Terry Cullen still appears to be MIA. In today's world that's not easy to do. Seems a little suspicious to me.

3) The police have arrested and charged his partner, Ms. Flint, for with animal cruelty. There's probably a reason for that. 

I don't know if what they allege rises to the level of neglect as the average reptile keeper would consider it. Like you pointed out, escaped food, rats lying out to thaw, etc happens. But it doesn't really matter what the average reptile keeper considers acceptable, it matters what the ordinances of the city of Milwaukee and the laws of the state of Wisconsin are regarding this particular issue.

All in all I do not believe for a minute that they would have started removing animals just for fun. There's a reason for it. There are reptile keepers and rescues all over the country and they don't get raided and their animals removed on a daily basis unless the circumstances require it.

----------

BloodyBaroness (05-19-2010)

----------


## wilomn

> I'm not assuming anything about the media. They could everything entirely wrong. Quite possible, perhaps even likely.
> 
> I am considering a few facts at this point however:
> 
> 1) Even if this was a peta setup or spin of some kind the city of Milwaukee is spending thousands of man hours removing the collection, moving it, etc. They wouldn't be doing that without a good reason. 
> 
> 2) Terry Cullen still appears to be MIA. In today's world that's not easy to do. Seems a little suspicious to me.
> 
> 3) The police have arrested and charged his partner, Ms. Flint, for with animal cruelty. There's probably a reason for that. 
> ...


Are you, by chance, a graduate of Rutgers?

----------


## bsd13

> Are you, by chance, a graduate of Rutgers?


Nope. Why?

----------


## BPelizabeth

It is not far off to think peta would put someone in place to cry sexual assualt to get the ball rolling.  Honestly......They fund ppl that blow up buildings!!  This would be chump change in comparision in my opinion.  Again I am not saying that is what is happening...but please don't think for one minute they have NOT done much much worse!!!

As far as man hours.....many think how we keep our snakes is wrong....inhumane even.  Lets say they see the above stated issue...rats lying out thawing.  That right there could warrent them to haul it all away coupled with a few poo's on the floor.  Again...this is my opionion

----------


## WingedWolfPsion

Or, perhaps Cullen disappeared before this warrant was issued, and the woman involved was stuck caring for that huge collection by herself, and simply could not keep up with it all.  It would be so easy to fall behind, and things could get pretty bad in a pretty short period of time without any help.

----------


## bsd13

> Or, perhaps Cullen disappeared before this warrant was issued, and the woman involved was stuck caring for that huge collection by herself, and simply could not keep up with it all.  It would be so easy to fall behind, and things could get pretty bad in a pretty short period of time without any help.


Bad enough that the building would be condemned? 

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93861754.html



> Cullen owns the warehouse at 2323 S. 13th Street, where it took two days to remove some 250 creatures. The building is now boarded up and condemned due to the amount of animal waste inside.

----------


## Kaorte

You know what....I have this weird feeling. 

My friend just told me he was going up to Wisconsin today to get some "free reptiles". Albino ball python, green tree python. I said no one who bought those animals would willingly give them away for FREE....But now I am leaning toward thinking that the animals he is getting are from the raid of Terrys place.

hmm

----------


## joepythons

> You know what....I have this weird feeling. 
> 
> My friend just told me he was going up to Wisconsin today to get some "free reptiles". Albino ball python, green tree python. I said no one who bought those animals would willingly give them away for FREE....But now I am leaning toward thinking that the animals he is getting are from the raid of Terrys place.
> 
> hmm


They can not legaly give away anything UNLESS they go thru the courts and are awarded them.Then IF they really care about them they will screen the adoptees and only after each reptile is cleared as being healthy they can adopt them out.They could not have done this process in 3 days.They also have to have Terry in court to give his side.

----------


## Kaorte

> They can not legaly give away anything UNLESS they go thru the courts and are awarded them.Then IF they really care about them they will screen the adoptees and only after each reptile is cleared as being healthy they can adopt them out.They could not have done this process in 3 days.They also have to have Terry in court to give his side.


Just speculation  :Razz:  He is going to Milwaukee today to get some "free reptiles". Milwaukee is where this "raid" just took place. I guess I will ask him when he comes back.

----------


## joepythons

> Just speculation  He is going to Milwaukee today to get some "free reptiles". Milwaukee is where this "raid" just took place. I guess I will ask him when he comes back.


Oh i figured that but was just putting the info out there  :Good Job:

----------


## WingedWolfPsion

> Bad enough that the building would be condemned? 
> 
> http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93861754.html


With that many animals?  I'd give it one month, maybe two months, tops, and it could most certainly get into that condition.

----------


## GoingPostal

> They can not legaly give away anything UNLESS they go thru the courts and are awarded them.Then IF they really care about them they will screen the adoptees and only after each reptile is cleared as being healthy they can adopt them out.They could not have done this process in 3 days.They also have to have Terry in court to give his side.


Just because they can't doesn't mean they won't.  One of the recent pit bull raids they put the guy's dogs down within 24 hours of the raid and he was found innocent.  Other people have had dogs disappear completely or die in care of the "authorities".  I would be curious where the animals are going since very few places are equipped or knowledgable to take reptiles.

----------


## wolfy-hound

There's a guy who had the HSUS come in and confiscate his 172(I think) dogs, even though the HSUS rep said on record the dogs didn't look bad, and the official inspector had been there TWO DAYS before and said everything was fine.  The judge has since ruled that the dogs were taken illegally, but something like 34 dogs have died while in the care of a rescue(of PARVO!!!! What rescue doesn't take precautions against parvo??).

So it does indeed happen.  Especially when any AR groups get involved, either in presenting evidence or making accusations to actually showing up and taking animals illegally.

----------


## joepythons

I would like to know where Terry is  :Confused:

----------


## bsd13

> I would like to know where Terry is


So would the cops and everyone else.

----------


## 9Catsz

If you watch the video where they're removing the animals, notice that the buildings are attached.  There is a building on either side of Terry's "warehouse".  

If there were mice running loose and the stench of ammonia and feces was so great, then why didn't ANY of those neighbors complain of 1) finding white/spotted, etc. mice running loose, and 2) of the smell.  They even interview the alderman who says he was just in one of the adjoining buildings recently and didn't know the animals were there.  That tells me the smell couldn't have been anywhere near what they're reporting. 

Click Here and then click WATCH THE VIDEO below the picture

----------


## joepythons

You know this whole "raid" sounds like a bunch of crap in my opinion.No judge is going to sign a warrant to raid someones storage building looking for a sexual assualt suspect.They have noted several times Terry is well known and has assisted them numerous times.So why are they taking his reptiles? I am sure he has EVERY permit needed.I think everyone needs to back off and wait until we hear from Terry  :Good Job:

----------


## jfreels

Well the warrant was for the home and personal property.  That also granted them the right into the "warehouse".

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

This isn't looking so good.. They are rubbing it in real good..

"Police raided what is believed to be 60-year-old Terry Cullen's residence on Monday and emerged carrying a frozen alligator. 

They also found a dead snake carcass, but no live animals. 

Neighbor Jim Sinicki watched police search the home and took pictures. 

"There's no telling what he had in there before the police came by," Sinicki said. "I just want to know some answers, like why is he doing this." 

Meanwhile, a warehouse used by Cullen is now boarded up and condemned by the city. 

Last week authorities removed some 250 exotic animals from the property and another 60 creatures from his girlfriend's home. 

Five giant anacondas were among the animals seized. 

Alderman Jim Witkowiak, who represents the near south side, is calling for Cullen to come forward. 

"A lot of the reptiles in here were basically neglected," Witkowiak said. "I just wish he would come forth and cooperate with the police." 

On a YouTube video, Cullen urges people to call him with donations for his reptile rescue fund. 

He answered that phone last week and told police he was in Connecticut, but has yet to turn himself in. 

An attorney who has represented Cullen said he had "no comment" when reached by a reporter Monday. 

Police began looking at the addresses as part of a sexual assault complaint, but have not named the target of that investigation. 


NBC"

http://www.ksdk.com/news/national/st...storyid=202327

----------


## MarkS

> They can not legaly give away anything UNLESS they go thru the courts and are awarded them.Then IF they really care about them they will screen the adoptees and only after each reptile is cleared as being healthy they can adopt them out.They could not have done this process in 3 days.They also have to have Terry in court to give his side.


Yes they can.  I read this in one of the articles. 'Cullen likely violated Milwaukee city ordinances that make it illegal to house non-domesticated or dangerous animals.'  If that's the case, they can confiscate his animals and do whatever they wish with them whether he's guilty of anything else or not.

----------

_bsd13_ (05-18-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> You know this whole "raid" sounds like a bunch of crap in my opinion.No judge is going to sign a warrant to raid someones storage building looking for a sexual assualt suspect.They have noted several times Terry is well known and has assisted them numerous times.So why are they taking his reptiles? I am sure he has EVERY permit needed.I think everyone needs to back off and wait until we hear from Terry


I'm willing to bet a judge will sign a warrant to go anywhere that a sexual assault suspect is believed to be, including a warehouse. 

Being well known, even highly regarded and respected doesn't somehow give anyone a free pass to break the law. I don't care if he fed 100 homeless children a night he's still accountable for whatever his actions might be.

If he had every permit needed part of the charges wouldn't be that he has animals he doesn't have permits to keep.

They are taking his reptiles because they were neglected, and he didn't have permits for a number of them. Nothing more, nothing less.

We'd all love to hear from Terry Cullen. Funny thing is he's not shown his face. And by now he has no excuse and no one can say "Maybe he doesn't know about it"

----------


## LoboGfx

Lil Update in the case, Cullen Finally in Wisconsin




> Here's the entire statement from Terry Cullen:"I have been trying to deal with this Machiavellian nightmare while out of town and gravely ill. Far from "being on the run" I have been back in town with my attorneys for the past two days engaged in the appropriate, necessary legal formalities. I am overwhelmingly concerned for the well being of our animals; the terrible stresses that they have been subjected to and their transport to utterly unfamiliar surroundings. My heart truly breaks at the very thought of the loss of my best friends and loyal companions, Pogo and Kong, our two dogs. You have no concept of our pain at their loss. While the much of the media has vilified and excoriated me with inaccuracies, half-truths and shameful sensationalism, the truth lies far, far from their irresponsible, knee-jerk rantings. Jane and I have devoted our all to conservation. Our shattered lives and reputations have been our reward." Terry Cullen


http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100...,6450177.story

----------

_BPelizabeth_ (05-21-2010),_Danounet_ (05-19-2010),Foschi Exotic Serpents (05-18-2010),_JeffFlanagan_ (08-30-2010)

----------


## wilomn

> They are taking his reptiles because they were neglected, and he didn't have permits for a number of them. Nothing more, nothing less.


I must have missed it. It sounds as if you are stating a well known and verified fact.

Could you show me this verification you seem so confident in?

Thank you.

----------

_JeffFlanagan_ (08-30-2010),wolfy-hound (05-18-2010)

----------


## joepythons

> I'm willing to bet a judge will sign a warrant to go anywhere that a sexual assault suspect is believed to be, including a warehouse. 
> 
> Being well known, even highly regarded and respected doesn't somehow give anyone a free pass to break the law. I don't care if he fed 100 homeless children a night he's still accountable for whatever his actions might be.
> 
> If he had every permit needed part of the charges wouldn't be that he has animals he doesn't have permits to keep.
> 
> They are taking his reptiles because they were neglected, and he didn't have permits for a number of them. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> We'd all love to hear from Terry Cullen. Funny thing is he's not shown his face. And by now he has no excuse and no one can say "Maybe he doesn't know about it"


How do you know whether or not he has the proper permits? Are you going by what the media is saying? Until i see the proof that he has neglected ANY reptiles i will still be on Terrys side.Today my friend Eric (green farmer here) and myself were talking about this.We both think this is PETA and those others that are trying to cease our hobby stunt.Who are they going to raid next with some hogwash excuse? NERD,Outback or another big name in our industry just to give us more bad reps  :Mad: .So before you burn Terry at the stake why not wait until we find out the WHOLE story not just the medias crap  :Wink:

----------

Pip (06-05-2010)

----------


## WingedWolfPsion

It's already occurred to me that the only practical way to have rodents running ALL over such a place is to knock over a rat rack, and let them out.

----------


## AaronP

> I don't get the impression this has anything to do with snakes in tubs. Floors covered in feces and not licensed to have some of the animals that were there is quite a bit different if it turns out to be true.


This.

The building ended up being condemned, there is a lot going on in this story.  I think that sometimes people are too trusting of individuals with similar interests.  

Think about it, as much as a lot of people dislike Big Daddy Whole Sales, and talk about how "filthy" his facility is, he hasn't been raided...




> It's already occurred to me that the only practical way to have rodents running ALL over such a place is to knock over a rat rack, and let them out.


Rodent's Escape, ask anyone who breeds them, it happens.  However if the rodents are not taken care of properly they're more likely to attempt to escape and will find a food source and breed outside of their controlled environment.

I'm neutral in this because I have no real interest in this story but I think people should keep an open mind about this.  Here are some more links related to this that were posted on Kingsnake:

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93861264.html

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93861754.html

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/93923674.html

----------


## joepythons

> It's already occurred to me that the only practical way to have rodents running ALL over such a place is to knock over a rat rack, and let them out.


Thank you! I bet the dead ones are being thawed out to feed the reptiles to

----------


## bsd13

> I must have missed it. It sounds as if you are stating a well known and verified fact.
> 
> Could you show me this verification you seem so confident in?
> 
> Thank you.


I think "mistreating" and "neglected" can safely be considered synonymous terms in this instance.

So here's a fact. Jane Flint was arrested for "suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species". This is according to an official document. An arrest report. Not a document made up by peta or the HSUS but an honest to God document created by an officer of the law. And before someone starts talking about police corruption, don't bother. There's too many agencies involved for it to be the police trying to set someone up.




> Jane E. Flint, who told police she lived in the building at 2323 S. 13th St., was arrested Wednesday and is in custody at the Milwaukee County Jail. She is being held on suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species, *according to the arrest report*.
> http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/93800689.html


This next part speaks for itself. Cullen himself claimed not to need a permit for exotics due to a consulting arrangement. The director of the Wisconsin Humane Society says some of the animals might have been covered, but not all of them.

If he claims not to need a permit chances are pretty good he doesn't have one. Time will tell to what extent the animals he kept were or were not covered under the consulting agreement. It will also tell if maybe he misunderstood the extent that the animals were covered under the agreement. 




> Cullen told investigators he doesn't need a permit for the exotic animals because of his consulting agreement with the Wisconsin Humane Society.
> 
> A limited number of Cullen's animals may have been covered by the humane society's licenses, *but certainly not all of them*, according to Executive Director Anne Reed. She said she is "surprised and concerned" about what authorities found at Cullen's properties.
> http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/93861264.html


I'm all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt and I understand the desire to circle the wagons to protect one of our own, but it seems like the evidence we have access to is mounting against the guy. No doubt we all look forward to hearing his side of the story, but in a nutshell this is what we have so far -

1) Police served a search warrant and found the place in shambles. I know there's been several comments about how the search warrant is probably illegitimate, but those accusations have no basis on anything solid that I've come across. They appear to be based on emotion and a dislike of peta/hsus in general. Some have even suggested that peta somehow setup Terry Cullen to make him look bad because they don't like people having pets. Which leads me to my next point...

2) The building has been condemned. If a health inspection condemned the building this quickly that a pretty good bet something is really amiss.

A few people have said that the conditions could get bad in very short order with that many animals and too little help. Sure they could get bad, but condemnation indicates a public health hazard. A few piles of snake poops and dead rats don't equate to condemnation. Something had to be going on over the long term. 

The question is how long has peta had an inside person going behind Terry Cullen, and Jane Flint spreading poop and the corpses of dead rodents around to the point where the building needs to be condemned?

3) They've removed somewhere between 250 and 300 animals and no reports indicate they were well cared for. Not from the zoo representatives, the police officers, the city workers, the neighbors, or even the humane society. Unless everyone involved is out to get Terry Cullen I'd expect there to be some kind of positive spin on this whole situation in his favor by someone. But I've not heard it, have you? 

4) Terry Cullen has himself said he doesn't need permits for the animals. Which is a pretty good indication he doesn't have them. If you claim not to need it you probably won't bother going through the time and expenses to acquire it.

----------


## bsd13

> Lil Update in the case, Cullen Finally in Wisconsin
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fox6now.com/news/witi-100...,6450177.story


Good to hear he's facing the problem. Despite what some might think I hope this all turns out to be a big misunderstanding.

----------


## wilomn

> I think "mistreating" and "neglected" can safely be considered synonymous terms in this instance.
> 
> So here's a fact. Jane Flint was arrested for "suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species". This is according to an official document. An arrest report. Not a document made up by peta or the HSUS but an honest to God document created by an officer of the law. And before someone starts talking about police corruption, don't bother. There's too many agencies involved for it to be the police trying to set someone up.
> 
> 
> 
> This next part speaks for itself. Cullen himself claimed not to need a permit for exotics due to a consulting arrangement. The director of the Wisconsin Humane Society says some of the animals might have been covered, but not all of them.
> 
> If he claims not to need a permit chances are pretty good he doesn't have one. Time will tell to what extent the animals he kept were or were not covered under the consulting agreement. It will also tell if maybe he misunderstood the extent that the animals were covered under the agreement. 
> ...


And this is the ONLY possible scenario?

Rather one dimensional, neh?

You see, without knowing, which you don't, all these statements as facts in evidence are..... not facts at all but guesses that you have made based on what you believe without being there, without talking to anyone involved, without any experience with large numbers of exotics but an over abundance of if the guys in charge say it's so then it must be so itis.

I don't have a problem prepping my rope prior to a hanging but I find it rather premature to have the gallows up and the noose hanging before we even know what's really going on.

I'm surprised you don't feel the same way.

----------


## wolfy-hound

"Suspician of neglect" is not "neglect".  

If he was told by an agency that he didn't need permits, then the agency is going to say "well SOME are covered by that.. but not all" then the agency sounds like they are backing out of a previous arrangement.

Again, nothing has said that the animals looked neglected in any of the things we've seen, and since the media seemed disturbed that some animals were housed in plastic bins and water troughs, which WE know are appropriate enclosures, I wouldn't expect for the MEDIA to get anything right.

And the police still haven't said who the person was that they were supposed to be searching for in the first place is.  Is it Terry and they just won't say because they are hoping he'll come in if he isn't certain it's him? Or was it some employee and some other people jumped the gun because they saw animals housed in what experianced people KNOW is a proper manner?

Why is the building condemned?  And if it's that bad, why isn't there more about the issues of the building? There's no way that dead animals and feces and such could be so bad that the whole building has to be condemned and the neighbors had no idea anything was being housed there.  We have a local lady with 15 cats in her house, and you can smell it from the street.  And her house isn't condemned.

IF he is guilty of some sexual crime, IF he neglected the animals, or left them in inadequate care to be neglected, IF he did not have permits and was NOT told that he did not need them, IF IF IF.. 

If he was housing the animals in an area that he was not allowed to do so accordingt o zoming, then yes, they coudl remove them, but the more normal way they do these things is to issue a warning and say "You have to get rid of these animals by XX date".  Not wholesale snatching them up and taking off with them.

----------

_joepythons_ (05-18-2010),Pip (06-05-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> And this is the ONLY possible scenario?
> 
> Rather one dimensional, neh?
> 
> You see, without knowing, which you don't, all these statements as facts in evidence are..... not facts at all but guesses that you have made based on what you believe without being there, without talking to anyone involved, without any experience with large numbers of exotics but an over abundance of if the guys in charge say it's so then it must be so itis.
> 
> I don't have a problem prepping my rope prior to a hanging but I find it rather premature to have the gallows up and the noose hanging before we even know what's really going on.
> 
> I'm surprised you don't feel the same way.


First off I'm not interested in hanging Terry Cullen any more than you are. I am interested in him being punished *IF* these accusations are correct. And punished without regard to who he is and/or what he might have done in the "reptile world" 

Having said that I don't believe anything is a conspiracy to set Cullen up. The police executed a search warrant totally unrelated to the welfare of these animals, but they found what they found. I'm not in the habit of accusing the police of lying and being part of some kind of a cover up involving a bunch of city agencies, at least one zoo and the Wisconsin humane society that is out to get Terry Cullen.

----------


## wilomn

> I'm not in the habit of accusing


Ahhh, my mistake then.

What DO you call what you've been assuring us must be what has happened and why it happened as you have assured us it has?

----------


## bsd13

> "Suspician of neglect" is not "neglect".


Granted but they wouldn't have arrested her for no reason. 

Opinion: The police don't really know what is considered neglect in regards to reptiles so they arrested her while the investigate and find out.




> If he was told by an agency that he didn't need permits, then the agency is going to say "well SOME are covered by that.. but not all" then the agency sounds like they are backing out of a previous arrangement.


Or he took a great amount of liberty with the agreement, far beyond what was intended when it was made.




> Again, nothing has said that the animals looked neglected in any of the things we've seen, and since the media seemed disturbed that some animals were housed in plastic bins and water troughs, which WE know are appropriate enclosures, I wouldn't expect for the MEDIA to get anything right.


Well there is this:




> http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/93704999.html
> The decomposed bodies of several animals were found in the building, Berg said. Among the living animals, some were in "subpar condition," but most should be able to make a full recovery, Christie said.
> 
> The inside of the brick building was a cluttered mess of animal cages and tanks, according to police officers, firefighters and others who had been inside.
> 
> Many reptiles were kept in horse troughs filled with foul water, Berg said.
> 
> Police officers spotted a 4-foot crocodile loose in the building when they entered, said Richard Kaiser, chief of the Milwaukee Fire Department's fourth battalion.
> 
> ...





> And the police still haven't said who the person was that they were supposed to be searching for in the first place is.  Is it Terry and they just won't say because they are hoping he'll come in if he isn't certain it's him? Or was it some employee and some other people jumped the gun because they 
> saw animals housed in what experianced people KNOW is a proper manner?


The warrant search is mutually exclusive from the animals. One has no bearing on another. If the police kick in a persons door with a warrant searching for a missing child even if they find no child, or even evidence of a missing child the meth lab in the basement is going to get them in trouble regardless.

It's also an active warrant at this point as far we know. So why would they announce to the world the man or woman they hunting? That doesn't even make sense.




> Why is the building condemned?  And if it's that bad, why isn't there more about the issues of the building? There's no way that dead animals and feces and such could be so bad that the whole building has to be condemned and the neighbors had no idea anything was being housed there.  We have a local lady with 15 cats in her house, and you can smell it from the street.  And her house isn't condemned.


You'll have to ask the inspectors why they don't condemn your neighbors house. Have you called and asked them to go take a look at it or otherwise reported her? Do they know about the problem? 

As for Terry Cullen's building, it was condemned because someone with a lot more knowledge than myself (and probably you) when it comes to these kind of things made an educated determination that it needed to be condemned.




> IF he is guilty of some sexual crime, IF he neglected the animals, or left them in inadequate care to be neglected, IF he did not have permits and was NOT told that he did not need them, IF IF IF..


Indeed if.




> If he was housing the animals in an area that he was not allowed to do so accordingt o zoming, then yes, they coudl remove them, but the more normal way they do these things is to issue a warning and say "You have to get rid of these animals by XX date".  Not wholesale snatching them up and taking off with them.


Every city and state works differently. I'm going to assume that they are following the procedures set for the city of Milwaukee

----------


## bsd13

> Ahhh, my mistake then.
> 
> What DO you call what you've been assuring us must be what has happened and why it happened as you have assured us it has?


Don't misquote people. It makes it look like they said something they didn't. What I said was: I'm not in the habit of accusing the police of lying and being part of some kind of a cover up involving a bunch of city agencies, at least one zoo and the Wisconsin humane society that is out to get Terry Cullen.

----------


## wilomn

> Don't misquote people. It makes it look like they said something they didn't. What I said was: I'm not in the habit of accusing the police of lying and being part of some kind of a cover up involving a bunch of city agencies, at least one zoo and the Wisconsin humane society that is out to get Terry Cullen.


And what I heard was, "I'm not in the habit of questioning those in authority. In fact, I will agree to follow their lead even if there is no proof to substantiate any claims at the time I make them simply because they have said it is so, which must be true so I will tell you it's true because I think it is so it must be."

Heh, not at all alike. 

The fault must be mine though, no doubt of that.

----------


## bsd13

> And what I heard was, "I'm not in the habit of questioning those in authority. In fact, I will agree to follow their lead even if there is no proof to substantiate any claims at the time I make them simply because they have said it is so, which must be true so I will tell you it's true because I think it is so it must be."
> 
> Heh, not at all alike. 
> 
> The fault must be mine though, no doubt of that.


Then you need to get your hearing checked if that's what you heard. There's a time and a place to question "authority". There are reasons to question how they've conducted themselves. Case in point: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/18/...ex.html?hpt=T2

There's no indication anywhere that they did anything wrong in this case. Nothing at all. So why would I question them in this case? Do you have a reason aside from they are the authorities and we just shouldn't ever trust the authorities?

You're the one questioning their integrity. I'm not. 

What facts do you have to show anyone that they have somehow mishandled this incident, or lied, or obfuscated anything in regards to it?

----------


## blackcrystal22

> Here's the entire statement from Terry Cullen:
> 
> "I have been trying to deal with this Machiavellian nightmare while out of town and gravely ill. Far from "being on the run" I have been back in town with my attorneys for the past two days engaged in the appropriate, necessary legal formalities. I am overwhelmingly concerned for the well being of our animals; the terrible stresses that they have been subjected to and their transport to utterly unfamiliar surroundings. My heart truly breaks at the very thought of the loss of my best friends and loyal companions, Pogo and Kong, our two dogs. You have no concept of our pain at their loss. While the much of the media has vilified and excoriated me with inaccuracies, half-truths and shameful sensationalism, the truth lies far, far from their irresponsible, knee-jerk rantings. Jane and I have devoted our all to conservation. Our shattered lives and reputations have been our reward." 
> Terry Cullen

----------


## wilomn

> What facts do you have to show anyone that they have somehow mishandled this incident, or lied, or obfuscated anything in regards to it?


Like you, I have no facts. 

Unlike you, I won't hang a man because someone in "authority" says I should.

You've convicted, hung, drawn and quartered this guy, who may or may not deserve such treatment, before you've got anything other than news reports.

That gives you the right to an opinion, but this wholesale "he WAS arrested BECAUSE..." when you have no facts to back it up is basically pandering to the crowd and quite possibly lying.

Are you consistently pre-mature in other areas of your life or is it limited to this incident?

----------

Foschi Exotic Serpents (05-19-2010)

----------


## wolfy-hound

If anyone here who I've seen on the forums taking pride in their animals and showing concern for their well being had police come in and confiscate their animals, get charged with neglect or not having permits.. I would give them benefit of a doubt and believe that there was some mistake.  

Even if it was bsd.  Yep.  Even if I heard at a show or online that YOU had your animals taken away for neglect.. I'd still say "I doubt he'd do that." And I'd tell people that they should give a chance for the truth to be shown, rather than jumping to the conclusion that you were guilty of the charges.  Why? Because I've seen postings from you that make me believe that you take good care of your critters and you wouldn't neglect or harm them.

I know you even LESS than I "know" Cullen, because at least I've met him in person once or twice at a show.  But I would give you benefit of a doubt.  Innocent people get charged with things all of the time.. and the media gets stuff wrong all of the time.  If every person who had charges brought up was automatically guilty, we wouldn't need a court system.

Give the guy a chance to prove his innocence before you get the pitchforks and torchs out.  I'm sure most people on here would give you that chance, why doesn't Cullen deserve that chance too?

----------

_joepythons_ (05-19-2010),_minguss_ (06-15-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> Like you, I have no facts. 
> 
> Unlike you, I won't hang a man because someone in "authority" says I should.
> 
> You've convicted, hung, drawn and quartered this guy, who may or may not deserve such treatment, before you've got anything other than news reports.
> 
> That gives you the right to an opinion, but this wholesale "he WAS arrested BECAUSE..." when you have no facts to back it up is basically pandering to the crowd and quite possibly lying.
> 
> Are you consistently pre-mature in other areas of your life or is it limited to this incident?


When did I say he was arrested? His "partner" was arrested and that is indisputable. She has also been released on $15,000 bond and not officially charged yet. If you missed the part about these not being my opinion, but various media reports that's not my problem. Read more carefully.

Where have I even stated my opinion about anything that has happened? Go ahead, point it out for me. I'll wait...

You can't, because I've not said stated any opinions about what Terry Cullen has or hasn't done, what he should or should not be charged with. I've said what the reports say and used some common sense. 

For example I utterly dismiss the idea that PETA set him up by filing a false police report regarding a sexual assault to get officer to his location. Even if they had done something like that they didn't put the places in such disrepair that at least one of them was condemned.

But you know what, maybe you're right. Maybe it's a big conspiracy by the animal hating people from the police, fire, two zoos involved, miscellaneous city works, neighbors, and Wisconsin humane society. Maybe they're all out to get Terry Cullen...  :Weirdface:

----------

BloodyBaroness (05-20-2010),sho220 (05-20-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> If anyone here who I've seen on the forums taking pride in their animals and showing concern for their well being had police come in and confiscate their animals, get charged with neglect or not having permits.. I would give them benefit of a doubt and believe that there was some mistake.  
> 
> Even if it was bsd.  Yep.  Even if I heard at a show or online that YOU had your animals taken away for neglect.. I'd still say "I doubt he'd do that." And I'd tell people that they should give a chance for the truth to be shown, rather than jumping to the conclusion that you were guilty of the charges.  Why? Because I've seen postings from you that make me believe that you take good care of your critters and you wouldn't neglect or harm them.
> 
> I know you even LESS than I "know" Cullen, because at least I've met him in person once or twice at a show.  But I would give you benefit of a doubt.  Innocent people get charged with things all of the time.. and the media gets stuff wrong all of the time.  If every person who had charges brought up was automatically guilty, we wouldn't need a court system.
> 
> Give the guy a chance to prove his innocence before you get the pitchforks and torchs out.  I'm sure most people on here would give you that chance, why doesn't Cullen deserve that chance too?


If this was one little police department trying to malign one guy I could easily see dismissing their claims. But it's not. It's multiple people from multiple agencies and civilian businesses. It's his neighbors even. At some point you have to acknowledge at least that much. 

I simply do not subscribe to the notion that this is some great conspiracy to bring Terry Cullen down. They kicked in his door to serve a warrant and found what they found. Can you give me one good, solid reason that they would lie and convince so many other people to lie about it as well? 

I'm all for giving him a chance. It's the American way, let him have his day in court. Like I said I'll *continue* to withhold my opinion either in favor or against him until a decision is rendered in court or the legal officials decide not to pursue charges.

As far as me being accused of something, I would hope you would consider the evidence at hand. If my house was raided, 200 animals taken and the place condemned I hope that would be a major factor in your considerations. I've had the misfortune of being with a humane society that has had to clean up the mess from an animal lover who let things get out of control. It happens. Not all the time but it does. And I guess that's why unlike so many others on here I don't find this totally unbelievable. Because I've seen it first hand with cats, dogs, and livestock.

----------


## mainbutter

> Innocent people get charged with things all of the time..


I can personally attest to this.

----------


## Christine

Here is a article on police raids going wrong and animals being killed for no reason.They do make mistakes.

If this is happening  then there should be some sort  of procedure to change it. To just say hay thats what police do and is wrong. 

http://wjz.com/pets/botched.raids.wjz.2.854006.html

----------

_minguss_ (06-15-2010)

----------


## Danounet

I dont care what anyone says the law says, shooting 2 dogs with no real reason is just wrong, it doesn't matter if it's the government's fault or the officers. Isn't that why we have animal control??!  :Rage:  :Taz:

----------

_joepythons_ (05-19-2010),_Sariel_ (05-19-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> I dont care what anyone says the law says, shooting 2 dogs with no real reason is just wrong, it doesn't matter if it's the government's fault or the officers. Isn't that why we have animal control??!


On the one hand I agree completely with you. 

On the other I can't say there was "no real reason" because I wasn't there for the raid. The Columbia Missouri swat raid had me absolutely livid, still upsets me, but once again I wasn't there to see if the dog that was shot and killed posed any threat whatsoever to any officers life or limb. 

Columbia SWAT raid: 

**link removed for language and content**

If you chose to watch that video can you say that the dog posed no threat whatsoever to any officer's life or limb? In criminal courts the officers are almost always cleared of any wrong doing when it comes to shooting an animal. Sad, but true.

----------

_Danounet_ (05-19-2010)

----------


## Ralphieeeee

Saw that video a week or so ago. It made me rage inside.  :Rage:

----------


## Danounet

Thanks, but you missed my point anyways, If it is known that there are animals in there specially dogs, why not bring animal control along? Why are things done this way??

----------


## 2kdime

That post is going to get pulled.

The video doesnt agree with this site's TOS

Unless its been edited

----------


## bsd13

> That post is going to get pulled.
> 
> The video doesnt agree with this site's TOS
> 
> Unless its been edited


Probably so. Regardless it is still a valid point.




> Thanks, but you missed my point anyways, If it is known that there are animals in there specially dogs, why not bring animal control along? Why are things done this way??


Seriously? You want animal control on a SWAT team? What are they going to do?

"Stop everyone I need to restrain this dog with my pole. Hey Smith, could you help me out here? I know you're covering the door but it'll only take a minute... Ok guys keep going."

----------

sho220 (05-20-2010)

----------


## Danounet

What swat team?? With a warrant??

YOU are talking about a video that has nothing to do with Cullen, you are mixing up 2 different issues here.

----------

_BPelizabeth_ (05-21-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> What swat team?? With a warrant??
> 
> YOU are talking about a video that has nothing to do with Cullen, you are mixing up 2 different issues here.


You asked why they didn't take animal control with them. 




> If it is known that there are animals in there specially dogs, why not bring animal control along?


I assumed your question was in a general sense why don't the police, when serving a warrant, have animal control with them.

----------


## wilomn

> I assumed


No facts necessary...

----------


## Jeremy78

> I dont care what anyone says the law says, shooting 2 dogs with no real reason is just wrong, it doesn't matter if it's the government's fault or the officers. Isn't that why we have animal control??!


You nailed it! Don't worry though, the four foot alligator running free around the building was left unharmed.
I don't know about you but WTF! If I saw a 4 foot alligator I'm pretty sure I'd be a littlemore defensive toward that then the dogs.
Also, don't dogs bark? Knock knock knock, reply "woof woof" cops "ok boys get yur guns ready"

put yourself in his shoes... This guy is I'll out of state, he just heard he's been accused of sexual assualt I think? Just found out his two dogs were killed (this guys an animal lover) (wait two dogs and they get along with a 4 foot alligator?) see what I mean? I'll trust what Terry says until I'm proved wrong. But I have seen the news be wrong before. On a daily bases, on an hourly bases. (ball python is burm...) until they are charged I'll be on there side.

----------


## MarkS

> Even if it was bsd.  Yep.  Even if I heard at a show or online that YOU had your animals taken away for neglect.. I'd still say "I doubt he'd do that." And I'd tell people that they should give a chance for the truth to be shown, rather than jumping to the conclusion that you were guilty of the charges.  Why? Because I've seen postings from you that make me believe that you take good care of your critters and you wouldn't neglect or harm them.
> 
> I know you even LESS than I "know" Cullen, because at least I've met him in person once or twice at a show.  But I would give you benefit of a doubt.  Innocent people get charged with things all of the time.. and the media gets stuff wrong all of the time.  If every person who had charges brought up was automatically guilty, we wouldn't need a court system.
> 
> Give the guy a chance to prove his innocence before you get the pitchforks and torchs out.  I'm sure most people on here would give you that chance, why doesn't Cullen deserve that chance too?



AAAAAmen Sister......  Give the man his day.... Let him speak his peace...  None of us have the right to judge him unless they've been selected for jury duty.... I've got opinions, you've got opinions, we've all got opinions.... but unless it's been heard by a judge it's just opinion... an it don't mean squat...

----------

Jeremy78 (05-20-2010),_minguss_ (06-15-2010)

----------


## bsd13

> AAAAAmen Sister......  Give the man his day.... Let him speak his peace...  None of us have the right to judge him unless they've been selected for jury duty.... I've got opinions, you've got opinions, we've all got opinions.... but unless it's been heard by a judge it's just opinion... an it don't mean squat...


I fail to see how anyone is judging the guy. Everything stated has been based on the reports. Could they be wrong? Sure. They probably are. But time will tell in which "direction" they are wrong. 

Regardless, I still maintain that you wouldn't see zoos, police, fire depts, humane societies, miscellaneous city workers and the guys neighbors conspiring against him at the behest of peta.

----------


## bsd13

> You nailed it! Don't worry though, the four foot alligator running free around the building was left unharmed.
> I don't know about you but WTF! If I saw a 4 foot alligator I'm pretty sure I'd be a littlemore defensive toward that then the dogs.
> Also, don't dogs bark? Knock knock knock, reply "woof woof" cops "ok boys get yur guns ready"


An alligator isn't likely to chase down an officer. A dog defending it's home is very likely. Which means an alligator poses very little risk to life and limb in comparison with a dog in this kind of situation. 

When it comes to self defense human limbs are always considered more valuable than animal life. The only exception that I'm aware of is a police k9 in the performance of official duties and following commands. Sucks but it's true.

----------


## MarkS

> I fail to see how anyone is judging the guy. Everything stated has been based on the reports. Could they be wrong? Sure. They probably are. But time will tell in which "direction" they are wrong. 
> 
> Regardless, I still maintain that you wouldn't see zoos, police, fire depts, humane societies, miscellaneous city workers and the guys neighbors conspiring against him at the behest of peta.


We're all judging the guy whether you like it or not... It's human nature to judge... Whether or not we're correct in our judgment is left up to the legal system... And thankfully none of OUR opinions matter unless they're heard before a jury.    And yes, it's very possible that you could see zoo's, police, fire departments, humane societies conspiring against him.  NOT because they're against Terry, but because they are government agencies that are expected to 'fall in line' because if they don't they might find their funds slashed by the powers that be...

----------

Jeremy78 (05-20-2010),_minguss_ (06-15-2010)

----------


## Jeremy78

> An alligator isn't likely to chase down an officer. A dog defending it's home is very likely. Which means an alligator poses very little risk to life and limb in comparison with a dog in this kind of situation. 
> 
> When it comes to self defense human limbs are always considered more valuable than animal life. The only exception that I'm aware of is a police k9 in the performance of official duties and following commands. Sucks but it's true.


I'm sorry but i find this horrible. They had absolutely NO right killing those dogs. Unless it is life or death why did they have to barge in. And if they didn't barge in then why didn't the woman (sorry I forget er name) lock them up? Makes no sence to me. 
You don't find it a tad bit suspicious that these dogs were living with a 4 foot alligator and getting along? News makes no sence, twists things around, not one to be trusted. 
And in a case like this isn't it proper for the police to find absolutely any charge they can hold a person with so that they have a hold of them? So they can't run or get away? Hence the suspician of cruelty or w/e?
There's a lot of ways around it,(killing the dogs) we don't know half of the story. All we have to go on is half baked news reports.

----------

_joepythons_ (05-20-2010)

----------


## wolfy-hound

The cops had a warrant which does indeed "allow them" to go barging in.  That's what warrants do.. otherwise, cops would have to stand politely outside a suspect's home and hope he decided to come out nicely.
When the cops went in, if the two mastiffs were behaving in a aggressive manner, yes the cops are within their rights to shoot the dogs.  While a lot of mastiffs are big sweethearts, some are protective, especially when a group of strangers comes running in.  Again, the cops can't just say "Well, there's a couple 200 lb dogs here, we can't go get the guy we're arresting."
Not having been there, or seen video tape explicitly showing the confrontation, I can't say whether the cops paniced and shot the dogs or did so only when they felt truly threatened, but they do have that right to protect themselves when they are serving a warrant in the process of their sworn duties.

Whether the warrant was justified only falls on the judge and accusers, not the cops.  

I believe the place they found all the animals was more than one story, so it's possible the alligator and the dogs were on seperate areas, with the alligator contained in some manner to a certain room or rooms.

----------

BloodyBaroness (05-20-2010),sho220 (05-20-2010)

----------


## BloodyBaroness

> The cops had a warrant which does indeed "allow them" to go barging in.  That's what warrants do.. otherwise, cops would have to stand politely outside a suspect's home and hope he decided to come out nicely.
> When the cops went in, if the two mastiffs were behaving in a aggressive manner, yes the cops are within their rights to shoot the dogs.  While a lot of mastiffs are big sweethearts, some are protective, especially when a group of strangers comes running in.  Again, the cops can't just say "Well, there's a couple 200 lb dogs here, we can't go get the guy we're arresting."
> Not having been there, or seen video tape explicitly showing the confrontation, I can't say whether the cops panicked and shot the dogs or did so only when they felt truly threatened, but they do have that right to protect themselves when they are serving a warrant in the process of their sworn duties.
> 
> Whether the warrant was justified only falls on the judge and accusers, not the cops.  
> 
> I believe the place they found all the animals was more than one story, so it's possible the alligator and the dogs were on seperate areas, with the alligator contained in some manner to a certain room or rooms.


Thank you for that post. Everyone is crying and blaming the cops for killing those dogs and what they fail to see is they were not there and have no clue what happened. I've worked in narcotics control and have been charged at several times by dogs that were "total sweethearts" and I've been bitten before. If a dog charges you and you feel threatened human nature is to react, not wait and see if it's simply running up to lick you. Since I do really care about animals my first instinct is to reach for pepper foam, but I can't say that's always the case. 

This whole thing is a terrible, terrible event and I do hope the facts get sorted out in the end. I can say that I am willing to bet my pay check there are MANY, MANY facts, charges and claims the general public has no knowledge of in this case.

----------


## WingedWolfPsion

However, if the warrant had ANYTHING to do with animal welfare at all, then shooting the dogs was 100% inappropriate.

----------


## bsd13

> However, if the warrant had ANYTHING to do with animal welfare at all, then shooting the dogs was 100% inappropriate.


The warrant had nothing to do with any animals whatsoever for any reason as far as anyone knows. It was a search warrant for that location in connection with some kind of sexual assault. Animals had nothing to do with the warrant.

----------


## 9Catsz

They accuse Terry of animal abuse and they're going to kill every last reptile they have confiscated.  Did you watch the video of when they were taking the animals?  Everyone had coats on and they were loading the reptiles into the back of a big truck...No heat for them.  Most of them probably are already in the first stages of respiratory infection.

New article:

_MPD defends its care of exotic animals

By Ryan Haggerty of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: May 19, 2010 |(63) Comments

The Milwaukee police lieutenant leading the investigation into last week's discovery of more than 250 reptiles found living in squalid conditions said Wednesday that the animals are being kept in safe locations and are receiving proper care.

The man who was responsible for the animals, Terry Cullen, said in an interview Tuesday that he had been told most of the animals are being kept in unheated city garages. He said cold weather can harm the animals.

"To me, the utter cruelty is beyond belief," Cullen said of the treatment of the animals since they were discovered.

"It's a patent lie," police Lt. Paul Felician said of Cullen's comments. "It's not true. (The animals) are in much better condition than they were when we (found) them."

Most of the animals, ranging from boa constrictors and anacondas to alligators and crocodiles, were found last week in a house in the 3400 block of S. 17th St. and a building at 2323 S. 13th St.

Hundreds of mice and rats blanketed the basement floor of the building, where more than 200 of the animals were kept, according to a police report released last week.

Most of the animals were kept in tanks or horse troughs, according to police and others who were inside the building. Many animals were unable to turn around because the containers in which they were kept were too small and filled with waste, according to an arrest report released last week.

"Dead animal carcasses were in close proximity to live animals, and animal waste was observed throughout the residence," according to the report. Mold and fungus were growing "on a vast majority of the animals," the report says.

Felician said all the animals have been cleaned and have been well-fed since they were removed from the house and building. Reptile experts from area zoos and other institutions have examined all the animals, he said.

No animals have died since they were removed, and the animals that were in the worst shape are beginning to improve, Felician said. Authorities hope to find safe, permanent homes for the animals, he said.

"We want to make sure that they go to places that can appropriately care for them," Felician said.

Police have not said where the animals are being kept because they consider the animals to be evidence. However, three crocodiles and an alligator snapping turtle are being housed temporarily at the Racine Zoo.

The building on S. 13th St. where most of the animals were found is listed in tax records as the location of a nonprofit organization called Cullen Vivarium Wildlife Conservancy Inc.

Cullen is listed in the tax records as the organization's president and director. His girlfriend, Jane E. Flint, is listed as the organization's secretary and treasurer.

Flint, 50, was arrested May 12 on suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species. She was released Friday from the Milwaukee County Jail after posting $15,000 bail, according to jail records. She has not been charged.

Cullen has not been arrested. He said in an interview Tuesday that he is in the Milwaukee area, but police spokeswoman Anne E. Schwartz said investigators do not know where Cullen is.

Cullen has not contacted police, Schwartz said.

Prosecutors could begin reviewing the case later this week, Milwaukee County Deputy District Attorney Kent Lovern said.

The case began last week when officers investigating a sexual assault complaint found the reptiles at the house on S. 17th St., which is owned by Flint, and the building on S. 13th St.

Officers shot and killed two dogs while executing a search warrant at one of the addresses, Schwartz said.

Police haven't identified the target of the sexual assault investigation.

The investigation into the reptiles spread to a third location Monday, when police found the carcasses of an alligator and a snake in a house in the 3300 block of S. Kinnickinnic Ave. that is listed in court records as Cullen's residence.

Search warrants executed during the investigation have been sealed.

Cullen said Tuesday that he has devoted his life to animal conservation. He has kept reptiles for years, has spoken at conventions for people who keep reptiles and has consulted with several local agencies that work with reptiles, including the Wisconsin Humane Society._

----------


## BPelizabeth

call me blonde but this doesn't make sense....

Flint, 50, was arrested May 12 on suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species. She was released Friday from the Milwaukee County Jail after posting $15,000 bail, according to jail records. She has not been charged.


How can you be arrested on suspicion of mistreating animals and yada yada....have to post bail....but yet not be charged with anything.  I can see be taken in for questioning....but why do you have to post bail when you have not been charged??

----------


## Sariel

> call me blonde but this doesn't make sense....
> 
> Flint, 50, was arrested May 12 on suspicion of mistreating animals and violating regulations regarding endangered or threatened species. She was released Friday from the Milwaukee County Jail after posting $15,000 bail, according to jail records. She has not been charged.
> 
> 
> How can you be arrested on suspicion of mistreating animals and yada yada....have to post bail....but yet not be charged with anything.  I can see be taken in for questioning....but why do you have to post bail when you have not been charged??


Ive been debating that myself as well. I always thought you had to be charged for those events to take place.

----------


## joepythons

Ok i had this video sent to me from utube.It seems they DROPPED ALL CHARGES on the lady they arrested and NO charges are being sought on Terry.So here it is from viperkeeper.                       YouTube - Terry Cullen.mpg

----------

_BPelizabeth_ (05-22-2010),Seru1 (05-22-2010)

----------


## joepythons

> The warrant had nothing to do with any animals whatsoever for any reason as far as anyone knows. It was a search warrant for that location in connection with some kind of sexual assault. Animals had nothing to do with the warrant.


Well the warrant was bogus in my opinion now.Since the video i supplied confirms that NO charges either sexual nor animal cruelty are being sought against ANYONE.So now what do you have to say?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  I suggest everyone write the mayor at the email addy viperkeeper supplies and make him aware WE DO NOT like what happened to Terry  :Mad: .

----------


## Sariel

At this point till we hear more from Mr Cullen himself or the others directly involved I'd just like to offer my humble advice to those who choose to email Milwaukee's mayor. Alot of us have been sent enough letters to understand emotion and accusation get you no where even if you are in possession of all the facts. Please, please tread carefully with these letters because even as it looks suspicious and many people know and respect Mr Cullen we simply dont know right now. A bunch of angry letters from reptile enthusiasts could easily be turned to reflect poorly on us in this touchy situation. 
   Personally I'm going to wait to write anything to anyone untill I have more information on what actually happened.

----------

wolfy-hound (05-21-2010)

----------


## wilomn

You know, that viperkeeper guy, is a load of crap.

He is no better than the guy who wanted to hang Terry from the get go. He has no facts, just more speculation.

There may or may not be charges coming, you notice he says "as far as we know, as far as is known," but makes no definitive statements. 

He's also, instead of looking for reasons, fanning the flames over the dogs being killed. While that is a tragedy, it's not the main point of this confiscation.

I'll keep holding off on jumping on ANY bandwagon until there is something more than an email from someone saying something that no one can as yet verify.

Personally, if it were me, and that fat load of crap viperkeeper was vouching for me, I'd ask him to shut the heck up.

----------

wolfy-hound (05-21-2010)

----------


## wolfy-hound

I hate to put it this way, because I would love to hear all charges were dropped.. but who is viperkeeper? Just some random guy on the internet? I admit, I didn't listen to his whole video, because frankly the long pauses were driving me batty and once he started about the "terrorist tactics" of the police serving the warrant, I quit listening.  Right at the beginning when it shows him using a bare hand to open a venomous rack with a hot striking at him.. sorry! No watchy stupid hot keeper tricks!  

Is he some authority? DId he quote a official source that we can confirm? If HE heard this from some official source, it should be available, right?

Wilomn, I'd rep point you, but I gotta spread some love first apparently.  Agreed totally, I wouldn't want that guy on my side, just from the couple minutes I listened to.

----------


## joepythons

> I hate to put it this way, because I would love to hear all charges were dropped.. but who is viperkeeper? Just some random guy on the internet? I admit, I didn't listen to his whole video, because frankly the long pauses were driving me batty and once he started about the "terrorist tactics" of the police serving the warrant, I quit listening.  Right at the beginning when it shows him using a bare hand to open a venomous rack with a hot striking at him.. sorry! No watchy stupid hot keeper tricks!  
> 
> Is he some authority? DId he quote a official source that we can confirm? If HE heard this from some official source, it should be available, right?
> 
> Wilomn, I'd rep point you, but I gotta spread some love first apparently.  Agreed totally, I wouldn't want that guy on my side, just from the couple minutes I listened to.


He was quoteing a lady(forgot her name but its in the video) on info she sent him

----------


## wolfy-hound

So he was quoting a third party? Who's the third party? Is SHE official or was she talking from another third party(fourth party?)?  Info sent to him? Is he an official PR guy for Cullen? Or did he get some email forwarded from some woman who might have written it or might have gotten it as a forward.. etc?

I'd want more definitive word before embarking on a potentially embarrassing email flood to an official who MIGHT be considering leniancy or stepping in to correct some wrongs, but would get irked over a bunch of angry letters of people telling him what he SHOULD or MUST do.  Just me, though.

----------


## wilomn

> Just me, though.


I think not my Lizardkeeping friend, I think not.

----------


## Seru1

I am a big fan of viperkeeper personally, I love his videos and he's actually very knowledgeable and responsible. Personally I don't see why you guys are bashing him. It's really not cool. No offense meant but he's a good guy I am sure your both cool to. No reason to flame a good guy like viperkeeper.


It's awful what happened to terry. I hope he and his animals are okay  :Sad:

----------


## wilomn

> I am a big fan of viperkeeper personally, I love his videos and he's actually very knowledgeable and responsible. Personally I don't see why you guys are bashing him. It's really not cool. No offense meant but he's a good guy I am sure your both cool to. No reason to flame a good guy like viperkeeper.
> 
> 
> It's awful what happened to terry. I hope he and his animals are okay


Actually, he's not. 

This is not the place to go into it.

----------


## wolfy-hound

I don't know viperkeeper from Adam's housecat.. I just don't believe that any responsible hot keeper should START his videos with a great close up shot of him opening a hot bin with a bare hand so that the snake is striking at his bare hand.  It's irresponsible.  Other than that, I don't agree that police coming into a place to serve a warrant is "terrorist tactics" just because they were going after someone who keeps reptiles(assuming that Cullen is the one in the warrant, which they never confirmed).  He's not very good on the video as a "public speaker", and combined with the irresponsible behavior in the first minute, the ranting against safe police tactics, and the FACT that he is not any authority or official spokesman for any of the involved parties, I'm not inclined to listen to him.

If you like him, wonderful for you.  I didn't see much redeeming in the few minutes I watched though.  At any rate, in this particular circumstance, he's merely repeating rumor as far as I can see.

----------


## Seru1

> I don't know viperkeeper from Adam's housecat.. I just don't believe that any responsible hot keeper should START his videos with a great close up shot of him opening a hot bin with a bare hand so that the snake is striking at his bare hand.  It's irresponsible.  Other than that, I don't agree that police coming into a place to serve a warrant is "terrorist tactics" just because they were going after someone who keeps reptiles(assuming that Cullen is the one in the warrant, which they never confirmed).  He's not very good on the video as a "public speaker", and combined with the irresponsible behavior in the first minute, the ranting against safe police tactics, and the FACT that he is not any authority or official spokesman for any of the involved parties, I'm not inclined to listen to him.
> 
> If you like him, wonderful for you.  I didn't see much redeeming in the few minutes I watched though.  At any rate, in this particular circumstance, he's merely repeating rumor as far as I can see.


He's not captain charisma but the warning on his video and all the lunges are to show people that even experianced HOT keepers have close calls.


Hey it's a free country and you guys are more than welcome to your opinions. I am a big fan, I just don't think flaming is necessary. Wolfy and wilo you know I respect you two and I don't want any hard feelings. I hope you both don't lose respect for me either


Anyway thats not what this thread is about. My prayers to terry and his animals.

----------


## joepythons

Has anyone heard anything new  :Confused:

----------


## 9Catsz

Now he's being charged with sexual assault and kidnapping!?!?  WTH is going on?

LINK to STORY

_"Terry Cullen turns himself in to police in connection with Milwaukee exotic animal case
May 26, 4:26 PMMilwaukee City Buzz ExaminerCherie Burbach

Terry Cullen, president of the Cullen Vivarium Wildlife Conservancy at 2323 S. 13th Street, turned himself in to Milwaukee police today. Police were first called to the building to investigate a sexual assault complaint. What they found were over 200 exotic animals being held in less than ideal conditions. In addition to the exotic animals, there were also "hundreds of mice and rats" along the entire floor of the building.

The animals included over 24 boa constrictors and 12 crocodiles. Cullen's girlfriend, Jane E. Flint, is also connected with the Conservancy and was arrested for mistreatment for animals on May 12th, when police first made the grisly discovery. She posted $15,000 bail and was released.

Cullen Arrested for Sexual Assault and Kidnapping

Cullen was arrested in connection with the original investigation, and booked on "two counts of sexual assault and one count of kidnapping," according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. He was released shortly after turning himself in today. Charges for both Cullen and Flint are expected tomorrow.

For raw video of neighbors reactions to Terry Cullen's arrest, check out TMJ4."_

----------


## _Venom_

How Odd.

----------


## SlitherinSisters

What the heck.....

----------


## ColdBloodedCarnival

Charged with 2 counts of sexual assault and 2 counts of kidnapping and then released? Guess Milwaukee is the place to go if you're into kidnapping...

Doesn't make much sense....

----------


## joepythons

Self-described reptile expert Terry Cullen, whose collection of snakes, crocodilians and turtles were seized by Milwaukee police earlier this month, was charged Thursday with trapping and sexually assaulting a woman in his fetid south side home.

Cullen, 60, also was charged with a dozen counts of animal abuse and violations of endangered and exotic species regulations.

An associate of Cullen, Jane E. Flint, 50, was charged with seven counts of animal abuse and violations of endangered and exotic species regulations.

According to a criminal complaint:

Cullen met a 24-year-old woman in February at a reptile swap south of Chicago. Cullen, who had brought with him a crocodilian named Mooshu, told the woman that he represented Cullen Vivarium Wildlife Conservancy and agreed to interview her for an internship in Milwaukee.

The woman lives in a small community near Chicago. About a week later, the woman's mother drove her to a restaurant on Milwaukee's south side, where the woman met with Cullen.

As the mother sat at another booth, Cullen spoke to the woman about an internship, then shifted the conversation to personal matters. He told her he had been born on a small island and had gone to medical school, where he specialized in gynecology. He was unable to finish school, he said, because an abusive father burned his dissertation. The complaint notes that medical students do not typically write dissertations.

The woman's internship began Feb. 27.

Her mother dropped her off at a south side restaurant, and Cullen picked her up. Before she began work, the woman told police, Cullen had her sign various contracts in which she promised she was not a member of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals or a PETA spy. She also promised not to reveal where he lived.

Cullen took her to his home, which is in the 3400 block of S. 17th St., and showed her five large anaconda snakes in basement tubs. After a dinner in which he touched her and told her, according to the complaint, that intimate relationships "have no boundaries," he took her to a building in the 2300 block of S. 13th St.

According to tax records, the building on S. 13th St. is the home of Cullen Vivarium Wildlife Conservancy Inc. Cullen is listed as the nonprofit's president and director. Flint, who lives in the building, is listed as the organization's secretary and treasurer.

Cullen showed the 24-year-old woman four large dogs that he said were tamed wolves. While using a filthy bathroom, the woman told police, she was startled by a free-roaming crocodilian.

The woman told police she was scared and, being unfamiliar with Milwaukee, did not know where she was. Cullen took her back to his house on S. 17th St., which he told her was in an extremely dangerous neighborhood. She told police she sat down on a mattress in what seemed like an office area and began to cry. Cullen, the complaint says, turned down the lights, lighted candles and assaulted her.

The woman told police Cullen insisted she stay the night, and he drove her home the next day, the complaint says.

The woman did not report the assault until earlier this month.

Milwaukee police, responding to the sexual abuse allegation, searched the S. 13th location on May 12.

"Investigators were overcome by a strong and putrid odor of urine, feces and decomposing animals," the complaint says.

More than 200 animals, most of which were exotic reptiles and many of which were protected or considered endangered species under federal and state law, were removed.

The carcasses of dead animals intermingled with live animals, the complaint says. Mice and rats cannibalized each other. Turtles had mold growing on them, according to the complaint. Some crocodilians inhabited tanks so small that their snouts were pushed against the glass.

Investigators found a wading pool filled with dirt that appeared to be used for breeding crocodilians.

Besides the counts related to animals, Cullen also is charged with one count of second-degree sexual assault, one count of third-degree sexual assault and one count of false imprisonment.

After an initial appearance hearing Thursday, Cullen's attorney, Stephen Glynn, adamantly denied the sexual assault charges.

"That's a flat not-guilty," Glynn said.

"That's a: 'I am not guilty. I did not do this. I will go to trial on it. I've got nothing to do with that.' "

Glynn also defended Cullen's work with animals.

"This is a guy who has spent his life dealing with these kinds of animals," Glynn said.

"He's got a local, statewide, national and even international reputation for doing good things with these creatures. He's never been involved in the sales of these animals. He's never been involved in their exploitation. He's involved in educational stuff."

----------


## joepythons

What a load of crap!  :Mad:  This lady says she was raped in Feb but did not report it until MAY  :Weirdface: .How many ways can i say BULLCRAP  :Mad:

----------


## Kaorte

Joe, Don't be so quick to call BS. Many sexually assaulted victims do not even report the crime. Some take months or years to report it. 

I don't know about you but I know nothing about his personal life or if this is true or not. I suspect you don't really know either  :Wink: 

I guess we will just have to see what the court decides.

----------

BloodyBaroness (06-04-2010),loxocemus (05-29-2010),sho220 (06-04-2010)

----------


## joepythons

> Joe, Don't be so quick to call BS. Many sexually assaulted victims do not even report the crime. Some take months or years to report it. 
> 
> I don't know about you but I know nothing about his personal life or if this is true or not. I suspect you don't really know either 
> 
> I guess we will just have to see what the court decides.


You are right i dont know him personally.I find it hard to believe though he "rapes" her then she stays the night.Then he drops her off for her mom to pick her up.Then 3 months later she cries rape  :Confused: .I would think she would say something the minute her mom picked her up.It would not shock me if she found out he has money and will ask for some "hush" money to drop charges.

----------


## akaangela

I am going to keep this short so I don't rant.

Many rape victims don't report the assault.  It is not like a mugging or even being carjacked.  There are a LOT of people that say "It was your fault" or "you deserved it" or other malicious things to the victim of rape that they would never say to a person mugged.  

What surprises me is that she had the courage to come forward at all, not that it took her so long to. 

I think we should wait to pass judgment on the rape and assult charges till we know more.  

Did he do it?  I don't know.  It is obvious he was up to shady things, so what would be one more to him?

----------

BloodyBaroness (06-04-2010),_catawhat75_ (06-03-2010),loxocemus (05-29-2010)

----------


## BPelizabeth

Well the description of the story is weird...she is 24 ...her mom is taking her places.  She goes to do an internship....her first day...her mom drops her off...and then she is gone all night??  No cell phone...if that were my kid I would be calling everyone involved to find out where she is.  And 24 is a little old to have your Mom carting you around.  I know..maybe she did not have a car....but even at 24 my Mom would of kicked my bootey had I not come home and didn't call.

Not saying at all that it did not happen and yes I agree....victims typically wait.  But it sounds like a lot of weirdness in the story.  ??  Im sure it will all come out in court and then we will see from there.  What ever the true story is it is a sad day for all parties involved.  If he is guilty...sad for the girl.  If he is innocent unfortunately his life will never be the same.

----------


## punkoldschool

> I am going to keep this short so I don't rant.
> 
> Many rape victims don't report the assault.  It is not like a mugging or even being carjacked.  There are a LOT of people that say "It was your fault" or "you deserved it" or other malicious things to the victim of rape that they would never say to a person mugged.  
> 
> What surprises me is that she had the courage to come forward at all, not that it took her so long to. 
> 
> I think we should wait to pass judgment on the rape and assult charges till we know more.  
> 
> Did he do it?  I don't know.  It is obvious he was up to shady things, so what would be one more to him?


id have to agree with your full statement apart from the last line. 
the one thing is why was he let go for the time being if he has charges for sexual assault and false imprisonment? thats just asking for a guilty person to do a runner

----------


## joepythons

> Well the description of the story is weird...she is 24 ...her mom is taking her places.  She goes to do an internship....her first day...her mom drops her off...and then she is gone all night??  No cell phone...if that were my kid I would be calling everyone involved to find out where she is.  And 24 is a little old to have your Mom carting you around.  I know..maybe she did not have a car....but even at 24 my Mom would of kicked my bootey had I not come home and didn't call.
> 
> Not saying at all that it did not happen and yes I agree....victims typically wait.  But it sounds like a lot of weirdness in the story.  ??  Im sure it will all come out in court and then we will see from there.  What ever the true story is it is a sad day for all parties involved.  If he is guilty...sad for the girl.  If he is innocent unfortunately his life will never be the same.


THANK YOU! Well which ever way this goes i am sure those PETA idiots will say all reptile people are this way  :Mad: .

----------


## joepythons

> id have to agree with your full statement apart from the last line. 
> the one thing is why was he let go for the time being if he has charges for sexual assault and false imprisonment? thats just asking for a guilty person to do a runner


Well innocent people will not run  :Wink: .I would like to know what evidence they have?

----------


## joepythons

Well here is a copy of the police report. I think its even MORE of a made up story now!                      http://media.journalinteractive.com/...nts/Cullen.pdf

----------

_llovelace_ (06-08-2010)

----------


## nixer

> Well here is a copy of the police report. I think its even MORE of a made up story now!                      http://media.journalinteractive.com/...nts/Cullen.pdf


id say very interesting.  i dont know what to think of it.

----------


## blackcrystal22

This just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

----------


## Wh00h0069

> Well here is a copy of the police report. I think its even MORE of a made up story now!                      http://media.journalinteractive.com/...nts/Cullen.pdf


I read through the full police report, and it sounds very straight forward to me. I would not be surprised if he is convicted on all charges. IMO, he will get what he deserves.

----------


## joepythons

> I read through the full police report, and it sounds very straight forward to me. I would not be surprised if he is convicted on all charges. IMO, he will get what he deserves.


Cmon she goes to a 4 hour interview(never had one last that long nor over dinner).Then she goes overnight for the first day of work(same as above comment).Then text boyfriend BUT does not say a word.Once dropped off sees mom and boyfriend starts crying BUT not one word why she is crying.Then tells boyfriend and he does NOTHING  :Surprised: .Sorry i would have been at that persons house without the police and handed down MY punishment if that were my girlfriend  :Mad: .Then i would have called the police.I am not being harsh on the lady but cmon i smell tuna here  :Weirdface:

----------


## Wh00h0069

> Cmon she goes to a 4 hour interview(never had one last that long nor over dinner).Then she goes overnight for the first day of work(same as above comment).Then text boyfriend BUT does not say a word.Once dropped off sees mom and boyfriend starts crying BUT not one word why she is crying.Then tells boyfriend and he does NOTHING .Sorry i would have been at that persons house without the police and handed down MY punishment if that were my girlfriend .Then i would have called the police.I am not being harsh on the lady but cmon i smell tuna here


I see where you are coming from, but she had just been sexually assulted, and was scared. I'm sure she was very mixed up, and wasn't really sure where to turn. From my understanding, this happens to many females that have been sexually assulted. Many do not report being assulted, or have to be talked into going to the police. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens in court.

----------


## Kaorte

> Cmon she goes to a 4 hour interview(never had one last that long nor over dinner).Then she goes overnight for the first day of work(same as above comment).Then text boyfriend BUT does not say a word.Once dropped off sees mom and boyfriend starts crying BUT not one word why she is crying.Then tells boyfriend and he does NOTHING .Sorry i would have been at that persons house without the police and handed down MY punishment if that were my girlfriend .Then i would have called the police.I am not being harsh on the lady but cmon i smell tuna here


As I said before, many victims of sex crimes DO NOT report the crime AT ALL. So  the reason why YOU think this story is fishy is because the girl didn't immediately report the crime. What if he threatened her if she said anything? What if she was so emotionally traumatized that she didn't want to share this information with anyone? What if she was so embarrassed that she fell for such a scam? These are all things that I would personally feel if such a thing had happened to me. 

That is quite a thorough police report. I still don't know what happened though or how much of it is true. That is ultimately up to the court to decide. 

Before all this drama I met Terry, he seemed like a very nice and knowledgeable person. But people aren't always as nice as they seem on the outside. Just because your opinion of him is one thing, doesn't mean he isn't completely capable of another identity. 

At first this story seemed a bit fishy. It doesn't seem fishy at all now. If it were a bunch of BS there wouldn't have been this lengthy police report and all these charges filed against him.

----------

loxocemus (06-04-2010)

----------


## BPelizabeth

> As I said before, many victims of sex crimes DO NOT report the crime AT ALL. So  the reason why YOU think this story is fishy is because the girl didn't immediately report the crime. What if he threatened her if she said anything? What if she was so emotionally traumatized that she didn't want to share this information with anyone? What if she was so embarrassed that she fell for such a scam? These are all things that I would personally feel if such a thing had happened to me. 
> 
> That is quite a thorough police report. I still don't know what happened though or how much of it is true. That is ultimately up to the court to decide. 
> 
> Before all this drama I met Terry, he seemed like a very nice and knowledgeable person. But people aren't always as nice as they seem on the outside. Just because your opinion of him is one thing, doesn't mean he isn't completely capable of another identity. 
> 
> At first this story seemed a bit fishy. It doesn't seem fishy at all now. If it were a bunch of BS there wouldn't have been this lengthy police report and all these charges filed against him.


Unfortunately I have to agree there are a lot of very pointed details.   I certainly hope that this isn't true as this industry doesn't need ANOTHER public mess.  And I certainly feel for the parties involved as their lives will truly never be the same.  It is a very sad situation either way it goes.

----------


## Quiet Tempest

The police report seems pretty straight forward. She was afraid of what he might do to her and ashamed/embarrassed by what happened. That plus the fact she was quite young - only 24 - makes me believe this all happened just as she said it did, when she said it did.

----------


## BPelizabeth

well I hate to say this but just like in the wild....a predator will look for the weakest to attack.  Typically not always...but typically ....women that have suffered that type of thing as a child will be vunerable to it again as an adult.  Also predators can make you feel like it was your fault....hence the waiting time.  

But like I said...I hope it is not true for all parties involved.

----------


## joepythons

The one big thing that sticks out is how the heck was she going to get to work daily? One more thing you would think someone would wonder why she needed to stay overnight.We will see how the courts and the jury view everything.No matter how this goes it will hurt us all in the publics eyes.I feel sorry for the reptiles also  :Sad:

----------


## wilomn

The thing that sticks out, for me, is that we don't know squat about the girl.

If he did it, put him away. But before we do that let's see if any of her claims pan out. Has she done this before? Is she looking to even a score for herself or someone else? Did he perhaps make promises he didn't keep and so she has done this?

I don't know and neither do any of you.

How many times have we seen police reports filed that were later dropped? Too many to just assume a report is equal to guilt.

----------


## jfreels

She confided in him to tell him that she was sexually assaulted by her father at the interview.  You'd think she'd have someone else to confide in to tell that she was just sexually assaulted again.  I'm just sayin'.  

Other than that, I hope he gets what he deserves. Report was thorough and I really don't doubt any of it, but someone did know...very shortly after it happened.

----------


## joepythons

> She confided in him to tell him that she was sexually assaulted by her father at the interview.  You'd think she'd have someone else to confide in to tell that she was just sexually assaulted again.  I'm just sayin'.  
> 
> Other than that, I hope he gets what he deserves. Report was thorough and I really don't doubt any of it, but someone did know...very shortly after it happened.


In all my years of working i have NEVER heard of someone sharing they were molested as a kid in any interview  :Weirdface:

----------

jfreels (06-03-2010),_llovelace_ (06-08-2010)

----------


## jfreels

Agreed.  That was kind of my point, if she opened up to a stranger (even if she considered him a roll model), why couldn't she tell anyone for months?

----------


## Sariel

> She confided in him to tell him that she was sexually assaulted by her father at the interview.  You'd think she'd have someone else to confide in to tell that she was just sexually assaulted again.  I'm just sayin'.  
> 
> Other than that, I hope he gets what he deserves. Report was thorough and I really don't doubt any of it, but someone did know...very shortly after it happened.


I does state that before she confided in him, he confided that he himself was abused by his stepfather and encouraged her to share her past. 
  While I agree thats not something Id share with a stranger and someone telling me that on an initial interview would weird me out... I can see where she is valid in sharing her drama if he opened the window first.

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

From a woman's point of view, I can understand wanting to be able to confide in someone. I also understand the fear part. BUT what I don't understand is why in the world she would open up to someone at an interview. A 4 hour interview. Hours away! For a job? Really none of this makes sense. From a psychological point of view, people who were sexually abused at a young age are also the ones more likely to develop issues other than being vulnerable. They are more likely to become sexual predators them selves. Develop unusual sexual fetishes or fantasies. Be more sexually active and be more attracted to much older or much younger people. Hmmm...

Also, a woman is much more likely to go hours out of her way for someone she is interested in.

Think about it. All of it. Its still 50/50 here. I still can't make a judgment on this one because none of it falls into a textbook version of sexual predation. Especially when you look very closely at both sides and all the details which would have made anyone else say WTH??

----------


## BPelizabeth

And Monica you have a great point too.  Just like Wilomn stated....could just go any way.  It is just so disturbing on so many levels.

----------


## wolfy-hound

I could see this as she went and had sex with the guy, then once she's back home with the BOYFRIEND, suddenly it's all "Oh he forced me by.. intimidation.. and I didn't want to, but I did.."
I could also see where he could have done exactly what she says he did.  She wiated a long time to report it, but then some victims wait a long time to report sexual crimes.  Could this be a disgruntled woman, angry and regretting something she did of her own free will? Or could it be a pushy aggressive guy who saw a woman he could coarce into sex?
I don't know either of the people involved.  No one knows the truth, or where in the middle of all this the truth lies.  Were the animals in really bad conditions? Were the animals in proper conditions and it's misreported because the people don't understand proper husbandry?  Insuffient ventilation? What? He didn't have a commercial vent fan to raise rats.. or the rats were all kept in ziploc containers? The rats didn't have space to move? How exactly do you pack live rats into a holding bin so tight that they can't move, but they aren't all dead within minutes from overheating and suffacation? 

Why is there so many spelling, grammer and other errors in the report?  I don't mean the occasional typo, but there's a lot of errors, including one tense error that changes the meaning of the sentance to say he didn't do wrong, when it's obvious it's suposed to say he did do wrong.

If he did wrong, then I hope he's convicted and punished.  If he did not do wrong, then I hope he's cleared of all charges.  Since I wasn't there, and didn't see, I don't know.

----------


## joepythons

Ok now this p me off.                            http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/95564899.html

----------

green farmer (06-04-2010),_rjk890_ (06-04-2010)

----------


## Jeremy78

> Ok now this p me off.                            http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/95564899.html


Wow, those pics are pretty bad. Even if he was gone for a month there's no way things could have gotten THAT bad.

----------


## joepythons

> Wow, those pics are pretty bad. Even if he was gone for a month there's no way things could have gotten THAT bad.


I agree! I understand when you have a large collection your place will have messes from time to time BUT having dead animal bones in the enclosures  :Mad: .

----------


## WickedBalls

Hmmm? Makes me wonder what else he has been doing! Maybe my fascination with a couple Rob Zombie movies is getting my mind wandering a bit!? I wouldn't be suprised if a few more victims step up,or maybe even found!

----------


## jfreels

I'm sure the crocs have already digested them  :Surprised:   :Razz:

----------


## Beardedragon

Who knows if those pictures are even real.

----------


## wolfy-hound

I'd discount the dead rodents, because a lot of places can have dead rodent carcasses.

The dead croc.. I'd disallow ONLY if he was de-fleshing it to use as a skeleton, which frankly is a stretch looking at the picture, it doesn't look as if it's set up for de-fleshing, it just looks like a dead croc that was left to rot.

The dead snake is a dead snake in a filthy enclosure.  Sorry, no way to stretch that to be understandable.  

The more proof that comes out, the less defensible the position looks.  Hopefully the situation gets resolved and the full truth comes out.  I'd expect to see a lot more pics of the situation, since it was described as dire for all the animals.  There should have been pictures of everything on the site.

----------


## Tochigi_R

That's dissapointing.. I really wanted to give Terry the benefit of the doubt, just because he seemed so dedicated, but those pictures are rage inspiring. Like the poster before me, it's not the pictures of the rodents, but that snake and gator. 

Part of me wants to be able to say those photos could be a big misunderstanding, but how do you explain that away? Especially with the way the media is going on about things. I don't know... I'm just in awe that someone who's so outspoken about protecting and preserving reptile species would allow those animals to live and die in those conditions.

As far as the sexual allegations go, who knows. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I'll be interested in seeing how things turn out.

----------


## loxocemus

this thread has went from 

one of our own being setup, travesty

probably peta involved somewhere

maybe she's lying and dangerously close to maybe she asked for it

to i hope he gets what he deserves.

people are back peddling at quite the speed it seems

im sure in a few days it will reach the lets lynch him point

----------


## WakoNako

It is digusting seeing those pictures. One thing I don't get is why they're so small though. You can't really see much in them.
I hate how this story is taking so long to get to the bottom of though.

----------


## BPelizabeth

> this thread has went from 
> 
> one of our own being setup, travesty
> 
> probably peta involved somewhere
> 
> maybe she's lying and dangerously close to maybe she asked for it
> 
> to i hope he gets what he deserves.
> ...


Well I think in leiu of how it all went down....the first part sounded rather vague.....then came this even more vague crazy story, then came the police report which was very detailed....then the pics.  Like the other poster stated...I totally get de-fleshing those items for educational purposes...but if you look at the snake alone...not really a set up for that...it more looked like it was left there after it died.  So yes we are seeing pictures and reading a one sided police report that sounds pretty convincing.  However we have not seen his defense yet.  I don't think there is one person here that hopes this is true.  I know I certainly hope that there is a rational explanation for all of this.

----------


## joepythons

> this thread has went from 
> 
> one of our own being setup, travesty
> 
> probably peta involved somewhere
> 
> maybe she's lying and dangerously close to maybe she asked for it
> 
> to i hope he gets what he deserves.
> ...


I have not changed my thoughts about the rape part at all.Now after seeing those pics thats another thing  :Mad: .If he really has done those things and allowed reptiles to suffer it will not only be him paying the price but us all  :Sad: .This will give those wanting to end our hobby some major leverage since he is well known in the world.Whats really weird is we know more info concerning the rape part then we do the reptile parts  :Confused: .I wonder why they are being hush hush? If this turns out to be a total setup i hope he cleans out everyone involved bank accounts  :Wink: .

----------


## wolfy-hound

I don't consider it to be back-pedaling to change an opinion when you're given new facts.  You can say the soup is great, until you find out there's pee in it, then you change your mind(I'll bet).  We got a partial story which no one would WANT to be true, and it's filled in some with hard facts(pictures), although we're still missing a lot of the story.

I'll still wait to hear the end results, and as I said, IF he's guilty, I'd want him punished, and if he's not, I'd want him cleared.  I still think the girl's story sound a bit wacko, and it's going to end up a "he said, she said" from what I see.  I don't know how anyone would have evidence of him doing all that from months ago, which makes me wonder how they are bringing charges just on someone's word.  I mean.. I could pick some guy at random and say "Oh, he raped me" and they'll just go charge him? With all those details in the report, what evidence did they get to bring actual charges?

All the animal stuff stems from the sex charge warrant, so if that charge turns up bogus, they might end up having to throw out all the evidence of neglect if the warrant was based on nothing.  Hopefully if there was indeed neglect(which at least that snake looks like) he'll get charged for it.

----------

jfreels (06-08-2010)

----------


## joepythons

More pics released .                                            http://www.wisn.com/slideshow/slides...17/detail.html

----------


## joepythons

Ok i just posted something on fauna concerning this.I wish we had someone that we trust that could get us the whole story instead of this bits and pieces we have been getting.I mean cmon if this place really looked like this dont you think the neighbors would have complained before now  :Confused: .The smell alone would be enough  :Weirdface:

----------


## Kaorte

That is pretty filthy. And I believe the photos to be accurate. Joe, how can you just sit there and say all of this is BS? Those pictures can't be fake. Where would they have gotten the pictures from? Why are you convinced the neighbors would smell it? If the buildings don't share an air supply system then there is really no way the neighbors could smell it.

----------


## NotaMallard

I agree entirely with Kaorte. It's impossible for those photos to be faked, and I honestly don't understand how some people can be so stubborn as to not admit that.

----------


## joepythons

> That is pretty filthy. And I believe the photos to be accurate. Joe, how can you just sit there and say all of this is BS? Those pictures can't be fake. Where would they have gotten the pictures from? Why are you convinced the neighbors would smell it? If the buildings don't share an air supply system then there is really no way the neighbors could smell it.


Well i am not the only one that questions the photos and you can see for yourself over on fauna.I would think the stench would be let out when they opened a door to leave or something.

----------


## Kaorte

> Well i am not the only one that questions the photos and you can see for yourself over on fauna.I would think the stench would be let out when they opened a door to leave or something.


Come on. Do you really think that people not smelling it before hand is enough to say this is all BS?

Were you there? Did you actually not smell anything?

Yeah you can doubt it but they would have to go through a lot of trouble to get fake pictures like that.

----------


## joepythons

> Come on. Do you really think that people not smelling it before hand is enough to say this is all BS?
> 
> Were you there? Did you actually not smell anything?
> 
> Yeah you can doubt it but they would have to go through a lot of trouble to get fake pictures like that.


How do we know those pics are REALLY from Terries place? Did you take them?

----------


## Kaorte

> How do we know those pics are REALLY from Terries place? Did you take them?


Well if they weren't from his place then where on earth are they from? If they are from some other nasty facility then surely that place would also be in the news? 

I believe that the pictures are in fact from his place.

----------


## joepythons

> Well if they weren't from his place then where on earth are they from? If they are from some other nasty facility then surely that place would also be in the news? 
> 
> I believe that the pictures are in fact from his place.


Maybe PETA released there pics by accident  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .If this does infact turn out to be how Terry really treated reptiles in my opinion he needs to be punished not only by the law but by us as a community.

----------


## Kaorte

Believe me, I don't want him to be guilty but the evidence that I have seen so far tells me that he is.

----------


## Raptor

> That is pretty filthy. And I believe the photos to be accurate. Joe, how can you just sit there and say all of this is BS? Those pictures can't be fake. Where would they have gotten the pictures from? Why are you convinced the neighbors would smell it? If the buildings don't share an air supply system then there is really no way the neighbors could smell it.


Ever had experience with a building like that? I have. Had an abandoned house on the property. My uncle had been kicked off the land so it was time to clean. The house had rotting trash, dirty diapers, and various other nasty things. Could stand outside it with the doors/windows shut and smell the stench.

----------


## WakoNako

It does seem a little bit weird that no one smelt it... especially after seeing the pictures.

And those pictures could of in fact been easily faked/taken elsewhere, but who would go to all the trouble of 'framing' terry cullen?

It is most likely, like 99%, that those are actual pictures taken from inside his building.

----------


## WingedWolfPsion

Actually, I remember reading one of the neighbors commenting that they could smell it.  How did you conclude that no one noticed the stench?

----------


## Kaorte

> Actually, I remember reading one of the neighbors commenting that they could smell it.  How did you conclude that no one noticed the stench?


in one news report, a few random people from the neighborhood said they didn't smell anything. That is all I remember of the matter.

----------


## BloodyBaroness

In an area of the city like there are all kinds of smells that float around. The neighbors may have in fact smelled it, but not realized the source. Plus with it's own air system, and depending on how the exhaust fans go, it may have been blowing up and out, with not much at street level. 

It's hard to watch a respected pillar of reptile keeping fall, but there is no doubt in my mind those pictures are real. It's a tough pill to swallow but it looks like the care claims are true.

----------


## llovelace

I just read through all of this, whew this is my couple pennies worth: When the news first started coming out about this the zoo personel & animal control reports stated that the animals were not kept in the best of conditions, but not the worst either, from what I gathered, now these pics are popping up? very questionable indeed.
I know a picture says volumes, but I question the validity of them.

I just think that sometimes, people want to do the right thing as I believe he did as far as the animals go, but "you can't bring them all home to care for", you'll quickly get in over your head, which may be the case here, or not.  That's for a jury to decide.

As far as the other, well......





> Cmon she goes to a 4 hour interview(never had one last that long nor over dinner).Then she goes overnight for the first day of work(same as above comment).Then text boyfriend BUT does not say a word.Once dropped off sees mom and boyfriend starts crying BUT not one word why she is crying.Then tells boyfriend and he does NOTHING .Sorry i would have been at that persons house without the police and handed down MY punishment if that were my girlfriend .Then i would have called the police.I am not being harsh on the lady but cmon i smell tuna here


I agree. Last I checked most cell phones have gps tracking, and if I thought I were in a situation like that, I'd have called 911 from the bathroom she used, is this woman a little slow?  In this day and age kids as young 8 know to dial 911




> I see where you are coming from, but she had just been sexually assulted, and was scared. I'm sure she was very mixed up, and wasn't really sure where to turn. From my understanding, this happens to many females that have been sexually assulted. Many do not report being assulted, or have to be talked into going to the police. I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens in court.


Again, this is a 24 y/o woman, I'm having a hard time buying it.




> As I said before, many victims of sex crimes DO NOT report the crime AT ALL. So  the reason why YOU think this story is fishy is because the girl didn't immediately report the crime. What if he threatened her if she said anything? What if she was so emotionally traumatized that she didn't want to share this information with anyone? What if she was so embarrassed that she fell for such a scam? These are all things that I would personally feel if such a thing had happened to me. 
> 
> You ever of the boy who cried wolf?
> 
> That is quite a thorough police report. I still don't know what happened though or how much of it is true. That is ultimately up to the court to decide. 
> If it were a bunch of BS there wouldn't have been this lengthy police report and all these charges filed against him.


Oh really now?






> In an area of the city like there are all kinds of smells that float around. The neighbors may have in fact smelled it, but not realized the source. Plus with it's own air system, and depending on how the exhaust fans go, it may have been blowing up and out, with not much at street level. 
> 
> It's hard to watch a respected pillar of reptile keeping fall, but there is no doubt in my mind those pictures are real. It's a tough pill to swallow but it looks like the care claims are true.


As I stated before, no one claimed any of this in the beginning, and didn't I read where one of the charges was poor ventilation for the animals?

----------


## joepythons

Ok since we are having some doubt whether or not the pics are legit or not i have something.This is NOT really a pic from anyones home i have ever been to its only to prove a point.I found this pic while doing a search on animal hoarders.Ok i went to Mary had a little lamb place and this is how it looked :rolleyes.

----------


## joepythons

See how easy it is to find pics and say they are from someone elses home  :Wink:

----------


## rabernet

> Cmon she goes to a 4 hour interview(never had one last that long nor over dinner).Then she goes overnight for the first day of work(same as above comment).Then text boyfriend BUT does not say a word.Once dropped off sees mom and boyfriend starts crying BUT not one word why she is crying.Then tells boyfriend and he does NOTHING .Sorry i would have been at that persons house without the police and handed down MY punishment if that were my girlfriend .Then i would have called the police.I am not being harsh on the lady but cmon i smell tuna here


Joe, I know that I'm late to this, I've been out of town. But until you're a woman who has been sexually assaulted (and I am), you cannot pass judgement on what the correct "behavior" should be after said assualt. 

My assaulter was also the son of a foreign diplomat - and he had diplomatic immunity. Knowing that, I told no one, and suffered that abuse on my own for many years. Only in the past ten years have I ever spoken of it to anyone. 

Don't be so quick to judge someone who waited three months to report this.

----------

_Beardedragon_ (06-08-2010),BloodyBaroness (06-09-2010),El_Dorado (07-09-2010),_JeffFlanagan_ (08-30-2010),Kaorte (06-08-2010),NotaMallard (06-08-2010)

----------


## wilomn

> See how easy it is to find pics and say they are from someone elses home


Joe, your loyalty is admirable.

However, you have no more facts than anyone else. Instead of constantly fanning the flames, which only serves to keep this foremost in the minds of many, why not get some FACTS?

Those might be pictures from his place. The fact is, YOU don't know if they are or not. Maybe, instead of just yelling about how it MIGHT be fake, you do some fact finding?

Seriously Joe, I know you don't care, but you're looking like someone stuck in denial. 

Give that some thought.

----------


## Kaorte

Joe, if those pictures are fake and from "some other facility" then it would be just as easy for me to search and find duplicates somewhere on the internet. 

Find me those exact pictures somewhere else referring to a different event and we will talk.

----------


## anthonym

I really wish this thread would get locked and everyone would shut up and stop speculating about stuff they know nothing about other than what they have read. Seriously... you guys are ridiculous on both ends.
 :Mad:

----------


## wilomn

> I really wish this thread would get locked and everyone would shut up and stop speculating about stuff they know nothing about other than what they have read. Seriously... you guys are ridiculous on both ends.


Yes, make them all be quiet, afterall they don't agree with you, do they. They must be wrong. Why tolerate?

----------


## anthonym

> Yes, make them all be quiet, afterall they don't agree with you, do they. They must be wrong. Why tolerate?



Huh...? What are you talking about? 

Has nothing to do with agreeing/disagreeing with me. I never even stated my thoughts on this topic. I'm talking about all the speculation on both sides of the argument.

This entire discussion in general is nothing but heresy and speculation on both sides at this point. Even though no one on either side has any proof about anything. Its getting old.

----------


## Kaorte

> Huh...? What are you talking about? 
> 
> Has nothing to do with agreeing/disagreeing with me. I never even stated my thoughts on this topic. I'm talking about all the speculation on both sides of the argument.
> 
> This entire discussion in general is nothing but heresy and speculation on both sides at this point. Even though no one on either side has any proof about anything. Its getting old.


So what? If its getting old then don't read the thread. No one is holding a knife to your throat.  :Confused:

----------


## anthonym

> So what? If its getting old then don't read the thread. No one is holding a knife to your throat.


So.. are you arguing that it would be more productive to just keep speculating back and forth on the matter? 

You were also just asking for someone to provide proof and stop speculating just a few posts ago. I think we are on the same side..  :Confused:

----------


## Kaorte

> So.. are you arguing that it would be more productive to just keep speculating back and forth on the matter? 
> 
> You were also just asking for someone to provide proof and stop speculating just a few posts ago. I think we are on the same side..


It doesn't matter. I am not just going to stop talking about it because YOU want me to because "speculating" is annoying to YOU. I happen to like speculating.

As for what I was asking, I was asking Joe to provide me another source from where those pictures could have been procured since he seems to think it is so easy to just fake that kind of stuff.

----------


## Foschi Exotic Serpents

I'm holding _all_ of you in contempt! Bailiff! Take em away!    :Bonk:   :Rolleyes2:

----------

BloodyBaroness (06-09-2010)

----------


## anthonym

> Joe, your loyalty is admirable.
> 
> However, you have no more facts than anyone else. Instead of constantly fanning the flames, which only serves to keep this foremost in the minds of many, why not get some FACTS?
> 
> Those might be pictures from his place. The fact is, YOU don't know if they are or not. Maybe, instead of just yelling about how it MIGHT be fake, you do some fact finding?
> 
> Seriously Joe, I know you don't care, but you're looking like someone stuck in denial. 
> 
> Give that some thought.


This quote from wilomn is pretty much the same thing I am saying.. so why are you guys getting defensive when I say that speculation is bad, and we need actual facts. But when someone else says it, its totally accepted.. I'm confused here..

----------


## Kaorte

> This quote from wilomn is pretty much the same thing I am saying.. so why are you guys getting defensive when I say that speculation is bad, and we need actual facts. But when someone else says it, its totally accepted.. I'm confused here..


no, you said this topic should be locked and not discussed at all.

----------


## anthonym

> no, you said this topic should be locked and not discussed at all.


I said I *WISHED* it would be locked and that people would stop speculating. Sorry for expressing my opinion about it. Why are you getting so defensive about it? Have I insulted you in some way? If I have I apologize Kaorte.

----------


## Kaorte

> I said I *WISHED* it would be locked and that people would stop speculating. Sorry for expressing my opinion about it. Why are you getting so defensive about it? Have I insulted you in some way? If I have I apologize Kaorte.


Nah I am not insulted. I just don't see the point of wanting a thread locked because you don't like what is being discussed when you can simply not look at it. The content is not breaking the rules so why lock it or delete it? Another thread will just be made. 

I like this thread. I like the updates and I like the conversation, whether it be speculation or fact.

----------


## anthonym

> Nah I am not insulted. I just don't see the point of wanting a thread locked because you don't like what is being discussed when you can simply not look at it. The content is not breaking the rules so why lock it or delete it? Another thread will just be made. 
> 
> I like this thread. I like the updates and I like the conversation, whether it be speculation or fact.


The point was more so that by speculating we are starting to spread mis-information and non factual data which is never a good thing. I think the guy is a piece of crap at this point. But that's besides the point. Inversely, if thats how you feel about my post, you could have just ignored it as well. But like me, you chose not to, and to voice your opinion as well.  :Smile: 

I see nothing wrong with discussing the topic. It's very relevant to all of us. But speculation by its very definition as a transitive verb is not the same as discussion.

----------


## Kaorte

> The point was more so that by speculating we are starting to spread mis-information and non factual data which is never a good thing. I think the guy is a piece of crap at this point. But that's besides the point. Inversely, if thats how you feel about my post, you could have just ignored it as well. But like me, you chose not to, and to voice your opinion as well. 
> 
> I see nothing wrong with discussing the topic. It's very relevant to all of us. But speculation by its very definition as a transitive verb is not the same as discussion.


Touche   :Very Happy:

----------


## BPelizabeth

> Huh...? What are you talking about? 
> 
> Has nothing to do with agreeing/disagreeing with me. I never even stated my thoughts on this topic. I'm talking about all the speculation on both sides of the argument.
> 
> This entire discussion in general is nothing but heresy and speculation on both sides at this point. Even though no one on either side has any proof about anything. Its getting old.


Then don't read it :Good Job:

----------


## wilomn

> I really wish this thread would get locked and everyone would shut up and stop speculating about stuff they know nothing about other than what they have read. Seriously... you guys are ridiculous on both ends.





> Yes, make them all be quiet, afterall they don't agree with you, do they. They must be wrong. Why tolerate?





> Joe, your loyalty is admirable.
> 
> However, you have no more facts than anyone else. Instead of constantly fanning the flames, which only serves to keep this foremost in the minds of many, why not get some FACTS?
> 
> Those might be pictures from his place. The fact is, YOU don't know if they are or not. Maybe, instead of just yelling about how it MIGHT be fake, you do some fact finding?
> 
> Seriously Joe, I know you don't care, but you're looking like someone stuck in denial. 
> 
> Give that some thought.





> This quote from wilomn is pretty much the same thing I am saying.. so why are you guys getting defensive when I say that speculation is bad, and we need actual facts. But when someone else says it, its totally accepted.. I'm confused here..


I don't think you're saying what I am. You're complaining about people being able to complain. I get your point, but mine was that it's all or nothing, no one can tell anyone else to stop. You can ask them, as I did with Joe, but to take that ability away, as would locking this thread, but that isn't the way it should be, it's not right.

I do wish guys like Joe, and I mean no disrespect here Joe, would just shut the heck up. The defense is almost as bad as the charges. Bringing it up time and again without sound proof to either contradict the charges or prove them somehow in error, can only hurt guys like terry. Deservedly so or not is an entirely different subject.

----------


## joepythons

> I don't think you're saying what I am. You're complaining about people being able to complain. I get your point, but mine was that it's all or nothing, no one can tell anyone else to stop. You can ask them, as I did with Joe, but to take that ability away, as would locking this thread, but that isn't the way it should be, it's not right.
> 
> I do wish guys like Joe, and I mean no disrespect here Joe, would just shut the heck up. The defense is almost as bad as the charges. Bringing it up time and again without sound proof to either contradict the charges or prove them somehow in error, can only hurt guys like terry. Deservedly so or not is an entirely different subject.


Hey Wes if you dont like what i have to say you know how to use the ignore button  :Wink: .This is America and i have the right to say whatever i like when ever i choose  :Salute:

----------


## wilomn

> Hey Wes if you dont like what i have to say you know how to use the ignore button .This is America and i have the right to say whatever i like when ever i choose


Just as you have the right, one which you have once again used improperly, to misunderstand any thing any time any place.

You're welcome. You don't know what for, but you are.

----------


## BILLB OKC

6any thing new with this case?

----------


## jfreels

Actually, yes.

Video of raid (mostly pics and interviews) http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/97629914.html


Girlfriend wants seperate trial: http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/97895599.html

----------


## Kaorte

Looks like these animals need foster homes. It would be great if some of our members here could pitch in!

I live a little far  :Sad:

----------


## chris4554

So what are the charges that this guy got? He didn't look to me as he really did anything wrong. They said he was keeping way to many animals in a small space but it looked like a big building and firemen had to pry the door off but people in the neighborhood were scared of there kids if animals escaped? This just seems dumb.

----------


## Kaorte

> So what are the charges that this guy got? He didn't look to me as he really did anything wrong. They said he was keeping way to many animals in a small space but it looked like a big building and firemen had to pry the door off but people in the neighborhood were scared of there kids if animals escaped? This just seems dumb.


did you not see the pictures or the video of this "facility"?

----------


## chris4554

No sorry I just started looking at this thread and 23 pages is a lot to go through. I saw he got searched for a sexual assault charge or something but not much about why they had to take all of these animals.

----------


## Kaorte

> No sorry I just started looking at this thread and 23 pages is a lot to go through. I saw he got searched for a sexual assault charge or something but not much about why they had to take all of these animals.


Check some of the more recent articles and the new video (a few posts back). 

It is pretty awful. There were a lot of dead and rotting animals, the place wasn't very clean at all...It was just pretty gross.

----------


## chris4554

Oh wow I guess I missed a lot through all those pages. That was pretty bad. Well hopefully the living animals will receive better care now. He seems like he became to addicted to keeping all these animals and ran out of the room and time to properly care for them all.

----------


## jfreels

> Check some of the more recent articles and the new video (a few posts back). 
> 
> It is pretty awful. There were a lot of dead and rotting animals, the place wasn't very clean at all...It was just pretty gross.


And don't forget about the sexual assault.

----------


## Kaorte

> And don't forget about the sexual assault.


I think the sexual assault charges are a little bit more fishy then the video and pictures of dead rotting animals. 

The assault charge is just based off what the woman said. Though it is doubtful (in my mind) that he is innocent on that charge.

----------


## chris4554

I saw a little about the sexual assault part. Who knows since there wasn't any real proof besides a persons word. I don't want to start up a big debate like the first 23 pages haha but maybe the girl just didn't get what she wanted. The easiest thing for women to do to get bad at men is say they sexual harassed or assaulted them courts always believe that stuff. At least they did find these animals and help them whether he did or didn't do anything else.

I remember something like that happened at my high school. It could have happened I guess but it probably didn't just knowing the guy that was accused and the girl that said it happened. But what can you do?

----------


## Dragoon

> Looks like these animals need foster homes. It would be great if some of our members here could pitch in!
> 
> I live a little far


i have yet to hear anything about the animals as far as fostering.   being evidence for a criminal trial i doubt i will hear anything

----------


## bsd13

Interesting. I can't help but wonder why people at the beginning were all ready to defend this guy to the death, even despite the charges of false imprisonment and sexual assault, but many turned against him when the pictures and details of the animals came out.

Am I the only person who sees something wrong with this?

----------


## joepythons

> Interesting. I can't help but wonder why people at the beginning were all ready to defend this guy to the death, even despite the charges of false imprisonment and sexual assault, but many turned against him when the pictures and details of the animals came out.
> 
> Am I the only person who sees something wrong with this?


Well the answer is simple.The pictures and videos were proof of wrong doings.The other part that seems to have been removed from his list of charges were just hear say  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## tonyaltn

> Actually, yes.
> 
> Video of raid (mostly pics and interviews) http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/97629914.html


Pause the video at 1:42.....is that alligators jaws deformed ? They look like they are curved up, maybe from being in to small of a tank for to long, or is it just the video making it look odd ?

----------


## h00blah

don't quite know what to make of the sexual assault case...

i really hope this wasn't true... any woman who decides to lie and say they were sexually assaulted are crying wolf and it sucks because it hurts the other women who really have been sexually assaulted and could not provide proof... extremely horrible... if some form of undeniable proof comes that shows the girl was lying, i think she should go to prison  :Mad: ... 


as for the reptile part of the story, it's your average "just another irresponsible reptile owner" case... i don't care how popular he is or how much good he's done. that facility is unacceptable  :Wag of the finger: .

----------


## BPelizabeth

> Interesting. I can't help but wonder why people at the beginning were all ready to defend this guy to the death, even despite the charges of false imprisonment and sexual assault, but many turned against him when the pictures and details of the animals came out.
> 
> Am I the only person who sees something wrong with this?


Well as with anything as proof is produced your opinions can change!!

----------


## j_h_smith

I would hope and pray that everyone would come to this guys side until such time that the evidence indicates he's guilty.

After all, isn't that what our freedom is predicated on?  Innocent until proven guilty.  Far too many times we as a society, have this backwards.  

Good luck to the guy, but if he is guilty, he should have to pay his dues.
Jim Smith

----------


## bsd13

> Well the answer is simple.The pictures and videos were proof of wrong doings.The other part that seems to have been removed from his list of charges were just hear say


They dropped the sexual assault and false imprisonment charges?

----------


## bsd13

> Well as with anything as proof is produced your opinions can change!!


True, but that's not what I was getting at. There were and still *seem* to be people in this thread and other places that have this twisted notion that the false imprisonment and sexual assault charges aren't that big of a deal, but the animal neglect charges are a huge, huge problem. That's what I was getting at.

----------


## wolfy-hound

That's probably because the false imprisonment and sexual assault charges are based on he said/she said, without proof posted.  The animal neglect is backed up by a few photos and video, although again.. most of what I saw wasn't abuse(snakes in tupperware isn't abuse), there was a lot of very bad stuff, like the dead croc and dead snake.  

I can't speak for everyone, but I base my opinions on posted proof, not on hearsay.  Trust me, if some person popped up and said you sexually assaulted them, I'd have the same opinion of "is there proof?". I'm all for rapists getting punished, there's no excuse for raping someone.  But I won't leap onto a person if there's no proof of it.  I also find the "false imprisonment" charge to be a bit of a reach, since the victim didn't say he restrained her or forced her to stay, he didn't lock her in where she couldn't get out.  IF it's true as she stated it, he told her it was dangerous outside, and she decided it was better to stay than to try to leave.  If I thought a guy was going to sexually assault me, I think I'd leave, no matter how dangerous HE said it was outside.  But then.. I'm not her.. I wasn't there.. I don't know whether she's making up stuff to sound like she's a victim, or if he was intimidating, or what.  So I only react to the stuff with proof.  The abuse and neglect.

----------

_anthonym_ (07-11-2010)

----------


## BPelizabeth

so did I miss something.....were the sexual assualt charges dropped?? :Confused:

----------


## MarkS

> Pause the video at 1:42.....is that alligators jaws deformed ? They look like they are curved up, maybe from being in to small of a tank for to long, or is it just the video making it look odd ?


It definatly looks bad, I noticed that too.  It does look deformed but it also looks very narrow and long and not at all like an alligator, I was wondering if it might be some species of crocodille or maybe a gharial?  Kind of hard to tell other then it looks really wrong.

----------


## BILLB OKC

anything new on this?

----------


## valleysnakeguy

It's funny when the "experts" are caught red-handed. Hahaha!

----------


## dsirkle

> It's funny when the "experts" are caught red-handed. Hahaha!


A real scream  :Confused:

----------


## j_h_smith

> It's funny when the "experts" are caught red-handed. Hahaha!


Not one of the Dale Carnegie quotes I remember.  

Jim Smith

----------


## ER12

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/reptile...h-terry-cullen





> We're sitting down with Terry Cullen, to talk about the nightmare that he's currently living. That nightmare being bankrupt, facing life in prison, outcast by an industry he's devoted his life's work to. Is this really what happens with you cross the HSUS? Do we as an industry automatically ASSUME the Government and the HUSU are telling us the whole story? Not me.... Ive been contacted by some very prominent members of the herpetological scientific community whom have expressed the huge impact this situation will have on crocodilian conservation worldwide. One member said, we can expect at least 5 species of crocodilians to become extinct (Gone for gone!) if/when Terry goes to prison.

----------


## bcr229

Yes, I realize this is a necro thread but there is an update after five long years, proving yet again that the wheels of justice grind slowly, but grind exceedingly fine.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwauk...378647821.html 

Six years after Milwaukee police broke into Terry Cullen's properties, killed his dogs and seized hundreds of lizards, snakes and crocodiles, the internationally known reptile expert has asked a federal court to award him more than $4.4 million in damages.

The May 2010 raids made national news, as police and wildlife officials claimed the exotic animals were being illegally possessed or mistreated, all claims disputed by Cullen, who was ultimately cleared of a variety of charges. 

Cullen's lawsuit accuses police of lying to get search warrants, ignoring less destructive options for conducting their investigation, and leaving his business and reputation in tatters, all in violation of his civil rights.

The raids were prompted by an Illinois woman who told authorities that Cullen had assaulted her during a visit to one of his Milwaukee residences to discuss an internship with his reptile rescue and rehabilitation operation.

In 2012, prosecutors acknowledged the victim had serious credibility issues, and agreed to dismiss two felonies based on the woman's claims and several misdemeanors related to Cullen's care and storage of the animals, in exchange for Cullen pleading no contest to fourth-degree sexual assault, a misdemeanor, as part of a deferred prosecution. After he met various conditions of the agreement, the conviction was vacated.

Cullen's friend and business associate, Jane Flint, was also arrested and charged in 2010, but prosecutors later dismissed all charges against her. She filed her own civil rights suit against the city in 2014 over the execution of the dogs, Tibetan mastiffs named Tong and Pogo. That case recently settled.

Many of the seized animals later died.

Cullen blamed a lack of knowledge about the creatures, many of them exotic snakes, lizards and alligators, many on loan from zoos.

His lawsuit estimates the value of all the seized wildlife inventory at $2 million. It also accuses police of taking guns, computers, tools, cash and jewelry from the four residences they searched without waiting for offered assistance from Cullen's staff.

"Instead Defendants deliberately and recklessly rushed to conclusions and took actions that were patently unfair and which violated Plaintiffs' clearly established constitutional rights including their rights to due process, and freedom from unreasonable searches, seizures and permanent deprivations; amongst others," the suit reads in part.

In addition to the damages sought for the lost animals, Cullen seeks another $2 million in lost income, and more than $400,000 for his costs to repair damage to his four properties caused by the raids and subsequent alleged failure by the city to secure them adequately, and for repairing his reputation on the internet, where stories of his case spread around the reptile conservation world.

It also seeks unspecified punitive damages.

Police knew for about a week before they served a search warrant at one residence owned by Cullen, where Flint was staying, that there were four large dogs inside. The day of the search, Flint told detectives she would come home immediately from work to confine or remove the dogs before officers conducted the search for endangered reptiles, or could have a friend get the dogs sooner.

But officers, including members of a tactical team, did not wait. After they entered, they shot two of the dogs with assault rifles, shortly before Flint arrived. The surviving dogs, Mung and Shombu, were led out in catch nooses.

Contrary to Milwaukee police policy, no use of force report was written about the shooting of the dogs until months later, according to Cullen's suit, and video being taken by police stops right before the dogs are killed before restarting again after they're dead.

The suit names as defendants two police officers, several yet to be named individuals in the Police Department, the city and a yet to be identified insurance company. The city attorney's office does not comment on pending litigation.

----------

dr del (09-06-2016),_Fraido_ (09-06-2016),_GoingPostal_ (09-06-2016),John1982 (09-06-2016),_MasonC2K_ (09-07-2016),OhhWatALoser (09-06-2016),_Prognathodon_ (09-07-2016),wolfy-hound (09-06-2016)

----------


## OhhWatALoser

Still terrible that it happened,  but glad things got set straight in the eyes of the law. Makes me sick thinking of losing my small collection,  could only imagine a 2 million dollar business.

----------

