# Site General > General Herp >  Semi graphic bite photos.

## Gio

First off let me say there are varying degrees of seriousness when it comes to snake bites, or for that matter all animal bites. There are feeding/prey bites, defensive bites, and depending on the animal, play and fight bites.

Snakes usually respond with a feeding bite, which can be very serious depending on the snake and size of it, or a defensive bite which can still be bad, but should not be as severe as a serious feeding response bite. For the purpose of this discussion I'm speaking only of non venomous snakes.

I've seen some horrible reticulated python bite photos with "feeding mistake" stories attached and they are certainly something to take note of, but they are generally rare. 

I have taken a few snake bites in the short time I've been into the hobby. The only semi photo worthy bite is from my boa constrictor.



Not to make light of it, but I lived. He was small, it was a feeding response bite but it was short lived. I reached in to take his news print off the substrate while he was still swallowing the tail of his rat. He decided to have another go thinking I was rat #2.






   I was almost hesitant to post the next photos because I've been an advocate of certain dogs ("bull breeds") for years. As a matter of fact, I feel every bit as strongly about preserving the American Pit Bull Terrier and the Presa Canario breeds as I do any species of snake. This is not an attempt to trash on dogs, far from it.

I just want to put some things into perspective when it comes to what are accepted as "safe animals", in this case dogs, VS what are normally considered dangerous, wild, exotic animals, snakes, for this purpose, and how either of them can leave a "mark".

This is NOT a "What's better" thread. Irresponsible behavior with any pet can have consequences. 

Some background:

I have been involved in handling and competing with protection dogs for about 15 years. I've been involved in the training and decoying as well. 

There is NO BAD BREED of dog! Just bad owners and handlers. I need to get that out of the way before continuing.

This next series of pictures is of an accidental training bite that I took from a Presa Canario. The dog didn't really want to bite me at all, but rather the bite sleeve we were using for training. I misjudged the slack in the handler's leash and paid the price.

The wound resulted from a prey/play bite that lasted less than a second. I'm guessing these are about 11-12 years old and are of poor quality. I had cleaned up prior to shooting these.

I'm not a small person, but the power this particular dog displayed in a split second was sobering and made me feel very humble. There is a big difference in your confidence level when you take a bite without a bite suit on. The photos were taken on the same day it happened. The following days looked much worse. What you don't see is the back of my thigh and top of my calf. The internal bleeding and settling of blood 2 days latter was ugly. 


I was wearing a pair of insulated tights, and regular blue jeans (basically 2 pairs of pants) during the training. We were not using a bite suit at the time because the dog was not that advanced and the exercise was focused on 2 decoys with 2 separate sleeves (long story). I basically got what I had coming for not paying closer attention.




The trauma actually got worse as the day went on.



I'll stop there as it isn't necessary to further. Obviously it was not a terrible bite, not at all, though it did hurt. 

My point here is that the bite and release was the same fraction of a second you'd get from a quick snake bite yet it resulted in much more damage. I'm very lucky this dog was in prey/play drive rather than fight or defensive drive. He would have easily ripped my quad muscle off. 

Uninformed people tend to have a misconception that ALL reptile bites are brutal and far more scary than simple dog bites, if the term "simple" can be used. This really was a simple dog bite IMO, and the dog was almost as surprised as I was. Both animals can certainly notch up the severity of a bite depending on the intention. But outside of the really big snakes you won't see trauma like this from a bite and release. 

Note I said bite and release. Things change dramatically with a very large snake and the act of constriction. It becomes a very level playing field then, and I'm not going down the worst case scenario road with this right now. There are cases involving both animals that have horrible outcomes, thankfully they are rare situations.

I want to make clear that this post is to make folks aware that ALL animals come with potential risks and certain responsibilities. We, the owners, are the ones who should prevent accidents. 


My intention here is not to elevate reptiles over dogs, any other pet or vice versa. If the discussion goes that way, I'll ask the moderators to remove the post. 


The photos are examples of bites that I have personally taken from two different animals and neither one was behaving in a manner that was "aggressive" specifically toward me. In actuality they were doing what they were supposed to do and I was not. 

Obviously the dog was much larger at about 120 pounds and the snake was just a little guy at the time. You'd have to have an enormous snake to come equal that dog bite, and the mechanics of the bite are much different so the results would differ. 

"Safe" is what you make it with any pet.

Bit of a rant???  Yeah, probably. But hopefully it made some sense.

Enjoy ALL of your pets, be good, responsible owners and stay away from those chompers LOL!

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_dkatz4_ (10-25-2016),Dtotheot (11-01-2016),_GoingPostal_ (10-25-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (10-25-2016),_redshepherd_ (10-25-2016),_voodoolamb_ (10-25-2016)

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## Prognathodon

Plus about eleven million. I've been bitten by a cat, a dog, a rat, a mouse, and snakes. The snake bites have been the least-bad. 

Years ago, a 65-lb husky and I were playing with a rope toy, she jumped up, missed the rope, and  got my arm instead. I'm lucky that she was both fast and smart, realized what had happened, and let go. Instead of missing a chunk of forearm muscle, I had two or three little-bitty bruises where her canines were.


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Gio (10-25-2016)

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## redshepherd

Yeesh!  :Surprised:  That's a bite... Maybe you can decoy for french ring instead. (jokes)

Definitely, this whole "aggressive dangerous bite" thing with snakes is just part of the whole misconception coming from myths and stories and tall tales posted in the news. Of course, a feeding bite from a retic is on the serious side, but the average person also has a REALLY BAD (I have found) gist of the size of a snake relative to its mouth. They hear "5 foot snake" and think the head is the size of my hand, when in reality it's the size of my thumb...

There was this one on humane society:

“May 1, 2011/Opelousas, Louisiana: A gardener cutting weeds in a client’s yard in a residential neighborhood encountered a 5-foot snake with an estimated 6-inch circumference, believed to be a python. As he reached to pick up the snake, the animal latched onto his hand and dragged the 6-foot, 143-pound man into the bushes, swallowing his hand and shredding the tops of his fingers. The snake escaped when authorities arrived.”

Officially listed as a "constrictor snake attack"... And a bunch of other exaggerated false reports. http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/...ke-attacks.pdf

It somehow dragged a man 30x its own weight and then just _disappeared into the wilderness._ And also, snake teeth don't shred things. That's not how their teeth work. LOL

And
"December 2, 2002/Marina, California: A female student was bitten on the finger by a3-foot boa constrictor kept in the middle school classroom.5"

They legit list this as a "dangerous constrictor snake attack" lol.

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Gio (10-25-2016),_PokeyTheNinja_ (10-25-2016)

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## voodoolamb

It's just this deep seated fear, my signif is petrified of how bad the bite from my little 300 gram is going to hurt and insists that he would rather be bit by one of the shepherds, and I'm like look at the size difference in the teeth SMH.

That presa bite is gnarly. I only had a dog 'miss the sleeve' once. Luckily for me it was a little mal female (I'm thinking the proper term for female dog might be censored here?) It hurt plenty. Don't want to think about how it would be if it was a dog that had 50 - 70 lbs on that girl.

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Gio (10-25-2016)

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## Gio

It is really all about how many people perceive reptiles. I cringe when I see kids outside walk up to dogs they don't know whether it be in a yard or on the street. I've seen their parents look on somewhat oblivious to the potential risks. 

A lot of the time those same types people will back up 10 feet at the sight of a little garter snake.

I've been bitten by a few other critters in my time as well. I'd say up to this point my snakes have been the least damaging. With more and more experience, the risk from getting bitten after you know your snakes diminishes significantly. I'm always aware and expecting something, but because of that and the precautions I take, I'll be rather surprised if I take another bite from one of my snakes.

Red Shep, we used to train French Ring, Mondio Ring and some other styles. Our first Presa was the first male Presa in the world to be titled in PSA. He passed away years ago. 

Snakes and dogs are my favorite pets, but I have an interest in birds of prey, and I am entertained by cats. 

We are all somewhat like minded folks here so I'm sure a lot of us enjoy animals for what they are.

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## Sauzo

That aint a snake bite Gio!! If only I had a camera back when Vicky did a 180 and latched onto the webbing between thumb and index finger. It was a feeding bite due to my stupidity. I was handling their food and figured I could reach in behind Vicky to move her hide before offering her her rat. Well the short answer is a snake can whip around 180 degrees and latch onto your hand faster than I could get my hand out of the cage. It was one of 2 bites that actually hurt, the other being when Dottie latched onto my whole index finger and tried to drag it into her hide to eat...again another stupid feeding mistake that required me dunking her head and my finger in the water bowl to get her to release. Now that dog bite looks like it hurt like heck.

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Gio (10-26-2016)

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## redshepherd

> Red Shep, we used to train French Ring, Mondio Ring and some other styles. Our first Presa was the first male Presa in the world to be titled in PSA. He passed away years ago. 
> 
> Snakes and dogs are my favorite pets, but I have an interest in birds of prey, and I am entertained by cats. 
> 
> We are all somewhat like minded folks here so I'm sure a lot of us enjoy animals for what they are.


That's awesome! I remember we talked about this before now (or at least, I read your post) I have zero first-hand experience in bitesport, just know the generals... I'm hoping to start in IPO (and/or hopefully french ring) with my next tervuren pup from working lines. The potential sire is a drivey dude in Europe, but the mom is very calm and sensible, so may not produce any puppies suitable for ring LOL... I'm excited, and we'll see...

"Snakes and dogs are my favorite pets, but I have an interest in birds of prey, and I am entertained by cats." That's exactly me too.  :Very Happy:

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Gio (10-25-2016)

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## Gio

Love it!

Dog sport is fun, but exceptionally time consuming.

I miss it a lot, but kids really took us out of the scene.

Snakes are so, so easy!!

Have fun with it! Trailing is very rewarding!!

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_redshepherd_ (10-25-2016)

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## Neal

Yea, that had to be painful. Ouch again.

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Gio (10-28-2016)

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## Gio

> Yea, that had to be painful. Ouch again.


Really,

Only the largest of snakes and the biggest mistakes by keepers will even get close to rivaling that dog bite.

I that dog was serious, I'd have been in real trouble. 

Again, getting a nip from anything is not fun, but putting things into perspective is often necessary when trying to educate folks about reptiles.

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_redshepherd_ (10-29-2016)

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## Fraido

I'd love to read about cases of feeding mistakes and bites from full grown giants, to be honest. 

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## KingWheatley

> I'd love to read about cases of feeding mistakes and bites from full grown giants, to be honest. 
> 
> Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


I know *of* a couple full grown retic owners who have scars from their mistakes.


Herp Derp

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## o.r hill

> I'd love to read about cases of feeding mistakes and bites from full grown giants, to be honest. 
> 
> Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk


Fraido:  I have had SFE bites from Balls,  a small burm, a  small retic, and my SD tiger.   The BP bite I could laugh off - a bunch of little holes like if I got caught in a stapler.  The burm bite was staple-wounds with nasty bruising.   The small retic was not bad at all.

The 8 footer that I have now has had a taste of me twice at this point.  One was not a strike but an engulfment: He was trying to swallow piece of bedding.   After getting it out of his mouth, he thought the ham of my thumb must be that drumstick that he had moment ago.   His teeth went through the skin like it was soft butter.   The second time was much worse after I absent-mindedly reached in his cage without tapping him first.   The phrase open like a can opener  is apt.   I lost feeling in the tip of my finger for a while.   I cant imaging what a bite from a giant with a man-hand sized head would be like. 

Still as Glo stated dog bites. (And cat bites! )  can be much, much worse.

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_Fraido_ (10-30-2016),Gio (10-31-2016)

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## butterballpython

> First off let me say there are varying degrees of seriousness when it comes to snake bites, or for that matter all animal bites. There are feeding/prey bites, defensive bites, and depending on the animal, play and fight bites.
> 
> Snakes usually respond with a feeding bite, which can be very serious depending on the snake and size of it, or a defensive bite which can still be bad, but should not be as severe as a serious feeding response bite. For the purpose of this discussion I'm speaking only of non venomous snakes.
> 
> I've seen some horrible reticulated python bite photos with "feeding mistake" stories attached and they are certainly something to take note of, but they are generally rare. 
> 
> I have taken a few snake bites in the short time I've been into the hobby. The only semi photo worthy bite is from my boa constrictor.
> 
> 
> ...


I disagree quite strongly with you regarding certain breeds of dogs.  Years ago I was a rep to the Arizona Dog Council when breed specific legislation began cropping up in California, and I was one of the people who fought against breed specific legislation.  Since then, I have educated myself on the topic (not via popular "poor misunderstood pit bull" propaganda, but by looking at statistics and amount of damage inflicted), and now regret having taken that stand in the past.  I highly recommend looking at the web site www.dogsbite.org for compiled statistics.  I've been threatened by stray pit bulls on my own property, and a coworker's grandson was the victim of an unprovoked pit bull mauling several weeks ago.  My neighbor's sheltie puppy was mauled to death by unleashed pit bulls while she was taking it out for a walk, and the pits went for her, too.  There are some breeds that are more dangerous than others, and need to be controlled.

On the other hand, I do agree with you that people fear snake bites way out of proportion to the actual damage inflicted--at least in the case of smaller to medium sized, non-venomous snakes.   :Smile:

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## Micki

Its kinda apples to oranges to compare an animal that weighs a few hundred grams to a hundred pound animal. 

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## KingWheatley

This is the only visible "bite" I've ever gotten. Barely any blood.


Herp Derp

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## Fraido

> Its kinda apples to oranges to compare an animal that weighs a few hundred grams to a hundred pound animal. 
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


But there are snakes that weigh the same, even more, than a hundred pound dog. Not to mention even my just under 50lbs dog can cause some serious damage if she were aggressive.

We're not just comparing a large dog to a small BP, we're comparing animals seen as safe to animals seen as dangerous. It was said at the beginning that it varies between different types of snakes/dogs and what-not.

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Gio (10-31-2016)

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## Micki

> But there are snakes that weigh the same, even more, than a hundred pound dog. Not to mention even my just under 50lbs dog can cause some serious damage if she were aggressive.
> 
> We're not just comparing a large dog to a small BP, we're comparing animals seen as safe to animals seen as dangerous. It was said at the beginning that it varies between different types of snakes/dogs and what-not.


I looked up some bites from large snakes, they aren't pretty. The thing is, a 120 lb dog is a safer pet than a 14 ft retic. An 8 ft boa only weighs 50 lbs. Large snakes should be owned by responsible experienced keepers.

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## Fraido

> I looked up some bites from large snakes, they aren't pretty. The thing is, a 120 lb dog is a safer pet than a 14 ft retic. An 8 ft boa only weighs 50 lbs. Large snakes should be owned by responsible experienced keepers.
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


Nobody said a large dog is not a safer pet than a giant python, and I think you underestimate the strength of an 8ft boa that weighs "only" 50lbs. :Wink: 

Obviously a large snake should only be owned by a responsible person. So should a large dog.

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## Micki

> Nobody said a large dog is not a safer pet than a giant python, and I think you underestimate the strength of an 8ft boa that weighs "only" 50lbs.
> 
> Obviously a large snake should only be owned by a responsible person. So should a large dog.


You said your less than 50 lb dog could deliver a serious bite, I compared it to weight appropriate snake. A lab can easily weigh 80lbs, it doesn't require an experienced owner to own a lab. An 80 lb snake requires an experienced keeper.  There really isn't a comparison to be made between a dog and a snake. They evolved completely different. 

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## Fraido

> You said your less than 50 lb dog could deliver a serious bite, I compared it to weight appropriate snake. A lab can easily weigh 80lbs, it doesn't require an experienced owner to own a lab. An 80 lb snake requires an experienced keeper.  There really isn't a comparison to be made between a dog and a snake. They evolved completely different. 
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


Okie dokie.

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## Gio

> I disagree quite strongly with you regarding certain breeds of dogs.  Years ago I was a rep to the Arizona Dog Council when breed specific legislation began cropping up in California, and I was one of the people who fought against breed specific legislation.  Since then, I have educated myself on the topic (not via popular "poor misunderstood pit bull" propaganda, but by looking at statistics and amount of damage inflicted), and now regret having taken that stand in the past.  I highly recommend looking at the web site www.dogsbite.org for compiled statistics.  I've been threatened by stray pit bulls on my own property, and a coworker's grandson was the victim of an unprovoked pit bull mauling several weeks ago.  My neighbor's sheltie puppy was mauled to death by unleashed pit bulls while she was taking it out for a walk, and the pits went for her, too.  There are some breeds that are more dangerous than others, and need to be controlled.
> 
> On the other hand, I do agree with you that people fear snake bites way out of proportion to the actual damage inflicted--at least in the case of smaller to medium sized, non-venomous snakes.


This isn't what the topic is about.  Except your last paragraph. 

And, unfortunately you are looking at manipulated stats. That website has an agenda which I fully expected. By the way pit bulls are typically more difficult to protection train due to the fact that in their creation dogs that bit their handlers or others were culled or never used for breeding. They don't want to bite people generally. They are one of the most man friendly breeds out there. Pete The Pup from the Little Rascals TV show was the ultimate kids dog. He was the first dual registered American Pit Bull Terrier / Amstaff. 

It's not the breed of dog but irresponsible ownership that is the problem. Every instance you personally mentioned was with an unleashed dog or a dog not being supervised properly. Leash laws solve 95 % of all dog issues when followed. Maybe there are more "reported and sensationalized bites" puplisized but just like with snakes the media will run with what it can. ANY large dog can inflict significant damage. Try using a similar mindset with races of people and crimes committed and see how it flies when you want to categorize something.  It's the owners NOT the breed of dog or snake. It's the individual person, not the ethnic background of the person comitting the crime. I have dealt with more dogs than most people and can tell you where the problems come from and it's not breed specific. 

As I said earlier, if this topic starts to stray from its intended purpose I'll ask the moderators to remove it or delete comments negative toward snakes or dogs especially certain breeds. Do not infer that pit bulls are a problem breed because they are not. Nor are snakes owned by responsible people. 

As far as comparing bites, the purpose here is to show more often than not, the pet considered safe by the general public, will usually cause more damage biting than a bite from a snake which is considered wild and dangerous by the ill informed. Dogs generally outweigh snakes until you get into the larger constrictors. True giants in the snake world are potentially every bit as dangerous or more-so when in full feeding mode. 

Do not use this topic to defame pit bulls, bull breeds or any other dog breed for that matter. That is the EXACT mentality anti-reptile fanatics use to wage war on our snakes and I don't want it here.

If I didn't make that clear in the first post it should be now.

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_GoingPostal_ (10-31-2016)

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## voodoolamb

> You said your less than 50 lb dog could deliver a serious bite, I compared it to weight appropriate snake. A lab can easily weigh 80lbs, it doesn't require an experienced owner to own a lab. An 80 lb snake requires an experienced keeper.  There really isn't a comparison to be made between a dog and a snake. They evolved completely different. 
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


The spirit of the post isn't about comparing bites battle scar to battle scar. It's not about putting the two animals in the same weight class and figuring out which is the heavy hitter.

It's about comparing perceptions. 

That said not all dog breeds are created equal. I will take the 80 lb constrictor over an 80 lb Fila brasileiro every single friggin time.

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_Fraido_ (10-31-2016),Gio (10-31-2016)

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## Micki

> The spirit of the post isn't about comparing bites battle scar to battle scar. It's not about putting the two animals in the same weight class and figuring out which is the heavy hitter.
> 
> It's about comparing perceptions. 
> 
> That said not all dog breeds are created equal. I will take the 80 lb constrictor over an 80 lb Fila brasileiro every single friggin time.


The two just really aren't comparable. Can dogs bite hard, absolutely. But they are different types if pets. A snake bite can be dangerous. It is not safe for an average person to keep a monster snake, they are only safe for people experienced with large reptiles. Without abuse and very basic training most large dogs are fine for regular dog owners.

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## PitOnTheProwl

> I disagree quite strongly with you regarding certain breeds of dogs.  Years ago I was a rep to the Arizona Dog Council when breed specific legislation began cropping up in California, and I was one of the people who fought against breed specific legislation.  Since then, I have educated myself on the topic (not via popular "poor misunderstood pit bull" propaganda, but by looking at statistics and amount of damage inflicted), and now regret having taken that stand in the past.  I highly recommend looking at the web site www.dogsbite.org for compiled statistics.  I've been threatened by stray pit bulls on my own property, and a coworker's grandson was the victim of an unprovoked pit bull mauling several weeks ago.  My neighbor's sheltie puppy was mauled to death by unleashed pit bulls while she was taking it out for a walk, and the pits went for her, too.  There are some breeds that are more dangerous than others, and need to be controlled.
> 
> On the other hand, I do agree with you that people fear snake bites way out of proportion to the actual damage inflicted--at least in the case of smaller to medium sized, non-venomous snakes.


Your link and views are still skewed a little. A "Pit Bull" outnumbers all other dog breeds in our nation. 
This is a two sided coin because not all the dogs/attacks reported are true PBs, many cities classify a muscular build and short hair fall under the PB class.
I deal with the BSL ignorance almost on a daily basis and many people open their eyes after dealing with my dogs.
This is a whole decades long debate that really isn't for this thread or site.
My only point is don't believe everything you read or hear  :Wink: 




> A lab can easily weigh 80lbs, it doesn't require an experienced owner to own a lab.


Have you ever dealt with an untrained full grown lab? 
Owning any dog ,the owner should have some experience to train it......

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Gio (10-31-2016)

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## Micki

> Your link and views are still skewed a little. A "Pit Bull" outnumbers all other dog breeds in our nation. 
> This is a two sided coin because not all the dogs/attacks reported are true PBs, many cities classify a muscular build and short hair fall under the PB class.
> I deal with the BSL ignorance almost on a daily basis and many people open their eyes after dealing with my dogs.
> This is a whole decades long debate that really isn't for this thread or site.
> My only point is don't believe everything you read or hear 
> 
> 
> Have you ever dealt with an untrained full grown lab? 
> Owning any dog ,the owner should have some experience to train it......


Yea I live in the country. People get large mix dogs(mostly pit or lab mixes) and put them outside. They aren't leash trained or house trained and usually don't receive enough social interaction. Without abuse they are usually harmless.

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## KingWheatley

> You said your less than 50 lb dog could deliver a serious bite, I compared it to weight appropriate snake. A lab can easily weigh 80lbs, it doesn't require an experienced owner to own a lab. An 80 lb snake requires an experienced keeper.  There really isn't a comparison to be made between a dog and a snake. They evolved completely different. 
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


While I haven't yet come across an aggressive lab (I'm sure they are out there...) the Lab my roommate owns is still a puppy, is highly untrained, and literally gears into everything. My roommate and I would both agree that a lab requires plenty of dog owning experience.

Any large animal requires more experience than a small one, imo 

I'm pretty sure that's the similarity that was attempted to be drawn. Not in the handling/care taking.


Herp Derp

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## Gio

> Yea I live in the country. People get large mix dogs(mostly pit or lab mixes) and put them outside. They aren't leash trained or house trained and usually don't receive enough social interaction. Without abuse they are usually harmless.
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


So are snakes when caged and properly raised. Very few incidents ever occur. Your ideology suggests snakes are prone to bite and are by nature unsafe. 

A play puppy bite is more painful than most snake bites. If you read the first post from the start you'd see I was not giving a worst case scenario. In general play bites or nips from "safe" pets are more damaging. I noted the exceptions maybe you misunderstood the topic.

I was bitten by a small pet rat once and it hurt far more than any snake bite I've had. 

I also mentioned bite mechanics. Your apples to oranges point actually furthers mine. Snake mouths/teeth are designed to hold not crush or or chew. Hence the bites are generally less damaging. The whole point once again.

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KingWheatley (10-31-2016)

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## Micki

> While I haven't yet come across an aggressive lab (I'm sure they are out there...) the Lab my roommate owns is still a puppy, is highly untrained, and literally gears into everything. My roommate and I would both agree that a lab requires plenty of dog owning experience.
> 
> Any large animal requires more experience than a small one, imo 
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's the similarity that was attempted to be drawn. Not in the handling/care taking.
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


I get the point that was being made. I just don't feel the comparison is fair. Small dogs, in my experience, bite more often from fear than large dogs bite (people) from aggression.

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## Micki

> So are snakes when caged and properly raised. Very few incidents ever occur. Your ideology suggests snakes are prone to bite and are by nature unsafe. 
> 
> A play puppy bite is more painful than most snake bites. If you read the first post from the start you'd see I was not giving a worst case scenario. In general play bites or nips from "safe" pets are more damaging. I noted the exceptions maybe you misunderstood the topic.
> 
> I was bitten by a small pet rat once and it hurt far more than any snake bite I've had. 
> 
> I also mentioned bite mechanics. Your apples to oranges point actually furthers mine. Snake mouths/teeth are designed to hold not crush or or chew. Hence the bites are generally less damaging. The whole point once again.


Large snakes don't kill by biting, dogs do. You showed a pick from a large breed dog with an above average bite force ( for even a dog) and compared it to a bite of a baby constrictor to prove snakes are less dangerous than dogs. A lot of snake behavior is instinctual. I have never been worried that one of my dogs would accidentally or out of fear bite me. I read multiple accounts on here of bad bad snake care( I'm a newb so I can only imagine what it sounds like to pros). Those mistakes they are making with baby balls and corn snakes would repeatedly earn them stitches and escapes from a Burmese, retic, or anaconda. 

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## Gio

> I get the point that was being made. I just don't feel the comparison is fair. Small dogs, in my experience, bite more often from fear than large dogs bite (people) from aggression.
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


Small dogs, large dogs, cats, birds. All considered safe and accepted by the majority. Snakes more often than not are considered high risk due to media and perception. 

Far more often than not a snake bite is less damaging. Fair has nothing to do with it. Watch videos of Snakebytes TV of Chewey getting bitten. Never serious. Doubt he does that with dogs.

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KingWheatley (10-31-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> I get the point that was being made. I just don't feel the comparison is fair. Small dogs, in my experience, bite more often from fear than large dogs bite (people) from aggression.
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


Define aggression then.

"I'm going to get you?"

"Stay away?"

I felt any bite, fear based or anger, was a state of aggression. They both mean "back off" regardless of if it's because they are being savage or wanting you to leave them alone....?


Herp Derp

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PitOnTheProwl (10-31-2016)

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## Micki

> Small dogs, large dogs, cats, birds. All considered safe and accepted by the majority. Snakes more often than not are considered high risk due to media and perception. 
> 
> Far more often than not a snake bite is less damaging. Fair has nothing to do with it. Watch videos of Snakebytes TV of Chewey getting bitten. Never serious. Doubt he does that with dogs.


Watch Chewie feeding the snakes at prehistoric pets. He doesn't allow those snakes anywhere near him. I agree the fear of snake bites exceeds the actual damage but the comparison here would be me showing a parakeets bite and comparing it to a retic to prove birds are safer bets. It just isn't really comparable.

Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk

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## Micki

> Define aggression then.
> 
> "I'm going to get you?"
> 
> "Stay away?"
> 
> I felt any bite, fear based or anger, was a state of aggression. They both mean "back off" regardless of if it's because they are being savage or wanting you to leave them alone....?
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


You could get a nip from a large dog while playing, accidental. Attacking is aggression. I'm not sure I consider defensive bites( still more prevalent with small dogs) aggression. You can corner and terrorize anything into biting.

Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk

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## GoingPostal

> It's not the breed of dog but irresponsible ownership that is the problem. Every instance you personally mentioned was with an unleashed dog or a dog not being supervised properly. Leash laws solve 95 % of all dog issues when followed. Maybe there are more "reported and sensationalized bites" puplisized but just like with snakes the media will run with what it can. ANY large dog can inflict significant damage. Try using a similar mindset with races of people and crimes committed and see how it flies when you want to categorize something.  It's the owners NOT the breed of dog or snake. It's the individual person, not the ethnic background of the person comitting the crime. I have dealt with more dogs than most people and can tell you where the problems come from and it's not breed specific.



This!  Pets in general are extremely safe, deaths are uncommon and almost always preventable.  In dogs it's almost always the unfixed guard/breeding dog that was not kept as a pet, usually with a history of aggression combined with irresponsible owners.  The breed is going to depend on what's the cheapest, most commonly backyard bred dogs around. Or prey deaths were people bring home a newborn and then leave it on the floor alone with your dog that's never been around kids which is more of any breed type of deal.  Rarely does an inside fixed dog kept as a loved pet kill anyone.  Rarely does a properly contained and owned reptile kill anyone.

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Gio (10-31-2016)

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## Gio

> Watch Chewie feeding the snakes at prehistoric pets. He doesn't allow those snakes anywhere near him. I agree the fear of snake bites exceeds the actual damage but the comparison here would be me showing a parakeets bite and comparing it to a retic to prove birds are safer bets. It just isn't really comparable.
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


I clarified all of this in the very first post which you seemed to be intenitionally missing. Jay has actually taken a few bites from his retics same with Brian. You are basically trying to put out the worst case scenario. I've used the term "generally" throughout this thread. The retic crowd is a more select group. 
But if you want to play worst case scenario I can tell you the dog that bit me was easily capable of taking me out. There are plenty of pets deemed safe causing problems. Almost every big snake biting issue is due to feeding mistakes which are easily avoided. 

Don't continue to disagree with people here and change the topic from its intended purpose  The majority of the members here are not large snake owners and it's easy to see that in the forums. Yet uninformed people feel as if owning a royal Python, boa constrictor or carpet Python is very dangerous based on fear and rumors. 

There are very very few instances where a snake's bite does more damage on average. 

Again ,,,,, noting like I have from the first post, there are exceptions. 

How can you not understand this being a snake owner yourself?

Your rebuttals are off base as you jump right into the largest snakes and the worst possible situations each time which isn't being done with the other animals. Average bite and release was the topic. 
It's been covered and mentioned here. Time to let it die.

When you have 16 plus years of experience handling, competing and putting protection titles and obedience titles on dogs maybe you will be able to recognize their capabilities even when offering a playful bite during a game of tug. 

Think I'm about done here.

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_Fraido_ (10-31-2016),KingWheatley (10-31-2016),_Prognathodon_ (11-01-2016)

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## Micki

> I clarified all of this in the very first post which you seemed to be intenitionally missing. Jay has actually taken a few bites from his retics same with Brian. You are basically trying to put out the worst case scenario. I've used the term "generally" throughout this thread. The retic crowd is a more select group. 
> But if you want to play worst case scenario I can tell you the dog that bit me was easily capable of taking me out. There are plenty of pets deemed safe causing problems. Almost every big snake biting issue is due to feeding mistakes which are easily avoided. 
> 
> Don't continue to disagree with people here and change the topic from its intended purpose  The majority of the members here are not large snake owners and it's easy to see that in the forums. Yet uninformed people feel as if owning a royal Python, boa constrictor or carpet Python is very dangerous based on fear and rumors. 
> 
> There are very very few instances where a snake's bite does more damage on average. 
> 
> Again ,,,,, noting like I have from the first post, there are exceptions. 
> 
> ...


We won't agree and that's OK. But you picked a large dangerous dog as your example and a baby snake as your example. I just feel comparing the two doesn't make any sense.

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## Gio

> We won't agree and that's OK. But you picked a large dangerous dog as your example and a baby snake as your example. I just feel comparing the two doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


Those were my 2 bites and it makes perfect sense. My boa could have been 50 pounds and not come remotely close to doing that damage.  As I later went on to explain and also did in the first post mentioned smaller animals still pack a punch.  My bother in law was shredded by a Bicion mix and had his hand stitched. 

My bite? Large dog yes but dangerous isn't a fitting label as that dog was very stable. An accidental bite was the issue. 

I mentioned birds rats and cats all common and well thought of pets being every bit as capable of doing damage. The truth is snakes are in cages most of the time and the likelihood of being bitten is minimal with precautions. 

There are plenty of snake bite pictures on the web and only a very few from the the largest of snakes show anything remarkable.  

It still holds true that snake bites are in MOST cases minor and cause less trauma than bites from other standard pets. It's indisputable and very much based on the mechanics and purpose of their mouths. 

Take your pick, as it was mentioned here by another member, an 80 pound dog or 80 pound snake. I can tell you which will damage you more. 

You've done a wonderful job draining the "general" point "spirit" of this topic. 

Enjoy having the last word as that appears to be your end goal.

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_Fraido_ (10-31-2016),_redshepherd_ (10-31-2016)

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## redshepherd

> You could get a nip from a large dog while playing, accidental. Attacking is aggression. *I'm not sure I consider defensive bites( still more prevalent with small dogs) aggression. You can corner and terrorize anything into biting.*
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


There's actually a real term for it in dogs, called fear aggression or fear biting. It is considered a form of aggression, just a different source. Any "fight" response is considered aggression.

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## redshepherd

> We won't agree and that's OK. But you picked a large dangerous dog as your example and a baby snake as your example. I just feel comparing the two doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk


(Sorry, couldn't edit my last post more)

Even if you don't think it makes sense, I think you are missing the whole point of the OP's first post here. We're all on the boat that the baby boa's bite is harmless and the dog's prey/play bite can do a lot of damage, but the point is that _the general public would_ rather consider the baby boa to be the more dangerous and high-risk one. The topic is of the general person's misconception about snakes, even small ones.

Check out this link of the human society's list of "constrictor snake attacks". Anyone who knows a thing or two about snakes can see that probably 30% of them are bogus and made-up tales or incompetent owners, and another percentage are just harmless. http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/...ke-attacks.pdf

*"December 2, 2002/Marina, California: A female student was bitten on the finger by a 3-foot boa constrictor kept in the middle school classroom.54"
*
They literally list this as a constrictor ATTACK... Why not list the thousands of hamsters and rats who have bitten people on the finger then too? LOL


ETA: I posted the same things in my first post in this thread, woops.

----------


## voodoolamb

> By the way pit bulls are typically more difficult to protection train due to the fact that in their creation dogs that bit their handlers or others were culled or never used for breeding.


This is incorrect. I'm actually a huge pit bull advocate. I've been involved in breed rescue and have lived with game bred pits. 

If you actually read accounts of dogmen - going all the way back to the 1800s - there were plenty of dogs in breeding programs that were man biters. Big names in early 20th century pit bull breeding - Tudor, Jones, Carver, even Colby had dogs in their programs that bit. Colby's nephew was killed in a "yard incident" by his dogs way back in 1909. 

No serious dog man lculled a champion fighter for biting. I'd be very very interested in seeing a verifiable account of it being a common practice. I do believe that there was natural pressure against human aggression - the dogs that focused on the other dogs became fighters - but no culling of good fighters.

30 years of Fighting Dogs by George Armitage (published in 1935) is a fascinating read if you're interested in history of the American Pit Bull terrier. 




> It's not the breed of dog but irresponsible ownership that is the problem.


Pit bulls need a different kind of responsible ownership than your average dog. So not only do you have the idiots who see pit bulls in rap videos and want a big tough dog for status - you get people who you would normally consider a responsible dog owner getting pits and then accidents happen. I was speaking with someone who competes heavily in OB. They where at a competition. A pit that was actually working on a higher title was leaving the ring and it attacked another dog unprovoked. It was brutal. 

The problem was that the owner trained the OB with a high energy and tug reward for flashy performances the dog was pushed into prey drive. She didn't pick up on the signs of the impending attack - because in general pit bulls have far more subdued body language then other dog breeds thanks to their gladiator ancestory. Then she wasn't carrying a break stick so the attack was prolonged. 

Then you get your average owner who believes it's just how you raise them and are completely ignorant of the genetic aggression and let their pits run amok in dog parks...

Pits are zero mistake dogs.




> ANY large dog can inflict significant damage.


But not every large breed have been selectively bred for bite and hold death grips. 

When pit bulls bite they tend to inflict far more damage than comparable sized dogs. Genetics.




> Do not use this topic to defame pit bulls, bull breeds or any other dog breed for that matter. That is the EXACT mentality anti-reptile fanatics use to wage war on our snakes and I don't want it here..


This was not an attempt on me to defame pit bulls. As I said before I LOVE them. I want the breed preserved.

However, I do believe that the "it's just a dog" mentality and spreading the positive myths such as nanny dogs and that biters were culled - is just as damaging to the breed as a whole. It puts dogs in situations where the owners are ignorant of the dog's capabilities. 

Pits are sweet, loving and goofy, but they are also Tenacious, powerful, high drive fighters with a lot of inherent aggression (mostly of the dog aggression variety). Considering the popularity of the dogs we are all lucky that most tend to be fairly high threshold dogs.

Breed matters. A lot.

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_cletus_ (10-31-2016),PitOnTheProwl (10-31-2016)

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## Gio

No it is not incorrect.
A great many dogs were culled and it is documented. I was also referring to protection training in that portion of the thread. Unless you have trained, trialed and handled these dogs on the field you can't really comment. Their drives are quite different from traditional sporting breeds.

There are very few APBT/Amstaffs walking around with titles because of their typical good nature toward man. It is changing but the true game bred pit is not wha t you see today in the muscled bully breeds.

Jimmy Boots was written about by Richard F Stratton. Boots was considered very good with people and even with other animals and was raised as a family dog.

Louis B Colby and Diane Jessup also mention this in Colby's book. Some of the most "game" dogs lived the quiet, comfortable lives with other dogs and people.

It is a reality. More often than not the dogs were man friendly and many were even dog friendly.

Howard Heinzl was thrilled with the Colby line of dogs as they were all very stable.

Cammett's Flash was another wonderful family dog back in 1941. Family dog.

These are NOT myths it is documented as fact. 

Colby's Demo would not bother another dog unless attacked. These and many more from the Colby line were well know for stability around people and often other animals.

Again,,,, where does this relate to my topic that I asked politely to stay away from bashing dogs or snakes?

You focus solely on pit bulls again. There are plenty of capable dogs. Tosa Inu, Presa Canario, Cane Corso, and many other bull breeds. NONE are any better or worse than the next.

I have a whole library of literature on the subject and filed experience. I don't have time to delve into it, nor should I be asked to do so as that was not the intention of this recently and drastically misguided post.

"Just another Dog" what does that even mean? 

ALL animals require certain responsibilities. 

There are a great many large and small dog breeds that have committed "crimes" against humans.

NOT THE TOPIC here.

ANY legislation against a breed, which is also proven not to work infringes on my rights and the rights of others.

Idiots will do what they do and I can't prevent that.

Responsible people should be able to own the dog they want.

The post has reached and end.

I posted 2 photos and tried to suppress the grossly exaggerated claims of reptile/snake bites being the end of the world.

That was all.

Dog threads are for a completely different part of the board.

NOT here.

I don't have time to go into my years of training experience.

Just not interested in that on a snake/reptile board.

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## KingWheatley

Since we are talking about snake bites...

To get back on topic (if that's alright?), has anyone received a food bite?

Is it typical for the snake to coil and hang on for a while? Or is it more typical for them to bite, hold on for just a moment then let go?


Herp Derp

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Gio (10-31-2016)

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## Gio

> Since we are talking about snake bites...
> 
> To get back on topic (if that's alright?), has anyone received a food bite?
> 
> Is it typical for the snake to coil and hang on for a while? Or is it more typical for them to bite, hold on for just a moment then let go?
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


Bingo!

Thanks for bringing this to where it should be.

Post some various bite photos or mention your experiences with snake bites. Minor or serious.

It is really what I was getting at in the first place.

This other rubbish has detracted from the topic.

Thanks Here Derp for getting back on track.

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## voodoolamb

> No it is not incorrect.
> A great many dogs were culled and it is documented.


Can you please post a source of this documentation? I am legitimately interested.




> We tossed for corners and I won. When we went to weigh Rowdy, he acted like a wild animal. He wanted to eat anyone that came near him but his own owner and trainer, and even they could not get him weighed. They suggested weighing him after the battle, and of course I would not agree to his. A dog loses weight during a battle, and besides it wasn't hurting my cause any for Rowdy to be upset and acting like the Tasmanian Devil, so I let them wrestle with the problem of how to get him weighed. They finally decided to tie together one leg of a pair of overalls, and then put Rowdy head first into the other leg, and got him on the scales. He was under the required weight all right.We washed the dogs and after the washing each man agreed to turn his own dog loose, - I didn't want to have to hold that man-eater.



- From 30 years with fighting dogs by George Armitage




> [/COLOR]He would then laugh like and angel flying too close to the ground, he would speak up and say, it was the English dogs Don, you can hear these know it alls talk about the Irish dogs and they were good ones, but the English dogs was where it was at.  Red eyed dogs as red as a ruby.  Wild to go very hot dogs that would eat up a person, and Flo would speak up and say “Lord yes,” as she pulled up her long cotton dress to her knees and pulled her knee socks down to her ankles to show her scars from dog bites.



- From an interview with Earl Tudor by Don Mayfield back in 1982. Full story found here: http://www.gamedogshistory.com/earl-tudor-the-oklahoma-kid/

There's a few BIG names in pit bull history. No culling of biters. [/FONT]




> These and many more from the Colby line were well know for stability around people and often other animals.





> NEWBURYPORT, Feb 2, 1909 -- Bert, the 2-year-old son of Mr and Mrs Walter Leadbetter of Lynn, was killed this afternoon by a fighting bull terrier, owned by his uncle, John P. Colby, at 36 Franklin st.





> Mrs Leadbetter and her son had come here to visit her brother, who is a dog fancier. The little fellow wandered into the yard where the kennels are.
> The dog sprang at the child's neck and growling ferociously shook him like a rag. Then the savage animal, dropping its prey, snapped at other portions of the body, inflicting a number of wounds.
> Mr Colby ran out, drove the dog a



From the Boston Daily Globe Febuary 3rd 1909 




> Again,,,, where does this relate to my topic that I asked politely to stay away from bashing dogs or snakes?


I am in no way bashing pit bulls. Just refuting something commonly touted as "fact" that isn't true based on historical accounts of breed history. 




> You focus solely on pit bulls again. There are plenty of capable dogs. Tosa Inu, Presa Canario, Cane Corso, and many other bull breeds. NONE are any better or worse than the next.


I focused on Pit Bulls simply because of mis information on that breed being spread on this thread. I actually mention the Fila myself in a post further up.





> "Just another Dog" what does that even mean? 
> 
> ALL animals require certain responsibilities.


Some breeds require a higher level of responsibility than others. Pit Bulls, Presas, Tosas, Filas, Ovcharkas, Dogos, and other bull/molosser/guardian breeds are zero mistake dogs and should NOT be owned by your typical pet dog owner. 

How many breeds out there do owners need to carry a break stick for? 




> There are a great many large and small dog breeds that have committed "crimes" against humans.


Yes, but fatal maulings tend to come from just a handful of breeds




> ANY legislation against a breed, which is also proven not to work infringes on my rights and the rights of others.
> 
> Idiots will do what they do and I can't prevent that.
> 
> Responsible people should be able to own the dog they want.


I am against BSL for the same reasons. 

However, with Pit Bulls, a breed I champion and love there is a LOT of propaganda out there. Anti pit bull people tout them as evil, soul less, killing machines. Pro pit bull advocate that they are just like any old dog! It all matters how you raise them, that they were nanny dogs! That human aggressive pits were typically and consistently culled from the breeding programs. 

Like most things in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. 

The pro pit bull propaganda is just as dangerous to the breed. People who are not capable of handling the responsibility of owning a genetically aggressive, powerful high prey/fight and incredibly driven breed buy into it and end up with a dog that kills another pet or even a child.

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## PitOnTheProwl

Semi true...... Human aggression is/was not allowed in the ring/pit. The dogs that attacked anything other than the other fighter did have a chance to die.
I have had some major lines and I am still mad about the girl I lost to cancer, this also caused me to miss out on some Remy pipetts
My Carver girl has a high game drive, sometimes too high. She is also the smallest weighing in at 35 pounds.
Too many people don't realize that you have to and should work these dogs. 
A tired bully is a great bully.  :Wink:

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_voodoolamb_ (10-31-2016)

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## Micki

> (Sorry, couldn't edit my last post more)
> 
> Even if you don't think it makes sense, I think you are missing the whole point of the OP's first post here. We're all on the boat that the baby boa's bite is harmless and the dog's prey/play bite can do a lot of damage, but the point is that _the general public would_ rather consider the baby boa to be the more dangerous and high-risk one. The topic is of the general person's misconception about snakes, even small ones.
> 
> Check out this link of the human society's list of "constrictor snake attacks". Anyone who knows a thing or two about snakes can see that probably 30% of them are bogus and made-up tales or incompetent owners, and another percentage are just harmless. http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/...ke-attacks.pdf
> 
> *"December 2, 2002/Marina, California: A female student was bitten on the finger by a 3-foot boa constrictor kept in the middle school classroom.54"
> *
> They literally list this as a constrictor ATTACK... Why not list the thousands of hamsters and rats who have bitten people on the finger then too? LOL
> ...


Its not I don't agree that average pet snakes are harmless. I just feel the comparison to be illogical. 

Sent from my C6743 using Tapatalk

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## AbsoluteApril

> Is it typical for the snake to coil and hang on for a while? Or is it more typical for them to bite, hold on for just a moment then let go?


I've had both happen. Only time it was a full on grab and coil was with my largest boa and was a SFE, two hands, one holding cage door slightly open, other had f/t rat on tongs, the door slipped out of my hand, she saw the movement and went for that hand instead of the rat. 




> Post some various bite photos or mention your experiences with snake bites. Minor or serious.


After this thread: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-feeding-posts
I decided to agree with them and no longer post my snake bite photos.

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## Gio

> Can you please post a source of this documentation? I am legitimately interested.
> 
> 
> - From 30 years with fighting dogs by George Armitage
> 
> 
> - From an interview with Earl Tudor by Don Mayfield back in 1982. Full story found here: [/FONT][/COLOR]http://www.gamedogshistory.com/earl-tudor-the-oklahoma-kid/
> 
> There's a few BIG names in pit bull history. No culling of biters. [/FONT]
> ...


Simply annoying and off topic. Though a semi recovery from early.

I didn't say ALL were culled but it is not misinformation that it occurred.

You have completely taken this whole post off the original topic.

Richard Stratton has written about it, Colby has written about it. Dieter Fleig (The world of Fighting Dogs) covers background and history.

The fact that I have personally competed with them is legit grounds for the statement as they are not readily programmed to bite humans like most sources say.

Have you titled a dog in French Ring, Mondio Ring, PSA or anything protection relate? Have you worked with dogs in law enforcement?

I never said any old bloke should own one. I did however say legislation was ineffective and really a violation of rights. 

Your first post on this said you wished you hand't supported the breed, at least that's what I got from it.

I have a wonderful pit rescue that my kids are in love with. I never strayed from responsible ownership.

Again, I ask that you stay with the topic I originally brought up.

I already mentioned Colby dogs said to be family and dog friendly earlier. The information was from Colby's book.


Micki,,
It is not a direct comparison. READ the original thread before you comment.

It is all mentioned in there.

You are missing the entire point. Otherwise,, you go!!

Done here.

Total train wreck.

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## KingWheatley

The point is that cuddly animals the average public is ok with have equally or more painful/dangerous bites than your typical and highly misunderstood snake.


Herp Derp

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Gio (10-31-2016)

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## voodoolamb

> Simply annoying and off topic. Though a semi recovery from early.





> I didn't say ALL were culled but it is not misinformation that it occurred.




You said;

" By the way pit bulls are typically more difficult to protection train due to the fact that in their creation dogs that bit their handlers or others were culled or never used for breeding."

The implication of "in their creation dogs that bit were culled or never used for breeding" is "ALL". That is simply what I am correcting. Dogmen didn't select against biting. They selected for the best fighters. The best fighters were the ones that focused on the job at hand and didn't redirect to handlers while in the pit. That is very very different then breeders selecting specifically for docility. 





> Have you titled a dog in French Ring, Mondio Ring, PSA or anything protection relate? Have you worked with dogs in law enforcement?




Yes. I have. IPO. See post #4 of this thread. Working dogs is also part of my livelihood - scent detection in the private sector. 




> I never said any old bloke should own one. I did however say legislation was ineffective and really a violation of rights.



Which I agree with. I am against BSL. Which I have previously stated.




> Your first post on this said you wished you hand't supported the breed, at least that's what I got from it.




Um no. You must have me confused with someone else. My first post on this thread was commiserating because my boyfriend was afraid of getting bit by my 300g ball but has no issues with the idea of getting bit by our shepherds. He's even stated he'd rather work the dogs without a suit then handle my snappy 300g snake. My second post was disagreeing with someone who brought up labs and weight, saying I'd rather deal with an 80 lb constrictor than an 80 lb fila. The rest of my posts were simply an conversation disagreeing with you about pit bull breed history. 


I have repeatedly emphasized my love for the breed. I lived with several. Over the last 20 ish years - 4 of my personal dogs were pits or pit mixes. My heart dog was a little brindle boy who's ashes are 2 feet away from me with a picture of his goofy smiling face as we speak. I fostered 19. Of those fosters I put CGCs on 17 of them. To make them more adoptable. Because they were pits. Some of them had baggage. 2 were emaciated by the time they got to me. I cooked for them daily. A few were heartworm positive. I climbed into their crates with them since they needed to be exercise restricted but I didn't want them to be lonely, sat cramped up for a few hours every day reading with a pit on my lap. One was doused in gasoline and set on fire. I changed his bandages daily. Another was kept in such a small crate and was so malnourished while growing, she had had musco-skeletal disorders the dog version of rickets. I carried her in my arms every day until she was strong enough for physical therapy. I have even been a volunteer and helped to organize weight pull contests in inner cities as an alternative to dog fighting. Throwing out my back tossing bags of kibble or cinder blocks around. 

The only reason I do not have a pit now is the youngest shepherd (who just received is BH this month and will be going for his IPO I in march) is a jerk with other dogs and I don't have the energy for the rotating crate game or micro managing interactions anymore so I won't be taking on a dog aggressive breed until this guy's senior years or until he's crossed the bridge. Maybe by that time I might switch to mini bull terriers instead of an APBT. Very similar personalities but I'll be an old git by then and might want a smaller dog. 

I have never said and never will say "I wish I hadn't supported pit bulls." 




> I have a wonderful pit rescue that my kids are in love with. I never strayed from responsible ownership.




Pits can be great family dogs - when paired with a dog savvy owner who understands and accepts their genetics. Sadly the vast majority of pit owners do not and that is why the breed that I love ends up topping the statistic charts in terms of fatalities. Too many pit bull advocates try to dismiss the claims of those statistics and that is not helpful to preservation of the breed  :Sad:

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## Gio

> You said;
> 
> " By the way pit bulls are typically more difficult to protection train due to the fact that in their creation dogs that bit their handlers or others were culled or never used for breeding."
> 
> The implication of "in their creation dogs that bit were culled or never used for breeding" is "ALL". That is simply what I am correcting. Dogmen didn't select against biting. They selected for the best fighters. The best fighters were the ones that focused on the job at hand and didn't redirect to handlers while in the pit. That is very very different then breeders selecting specifically for docility. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mostly agree  but they did cull and it was not a secret. They ARE not typically good P/P trial dogs.

Great IPO is a standard test for the breed it was designed for.

The stats are flawed as mentioned by Pit On The Prowl earlier.

I don't have further time for this but I see you have more of a liking for them than I thought.

----------


## Gio

> You said;
> 
> " By the way pit bulls are typically more difficult to protection train due to the fact that in their creation dogs that bit their handlers or others were culled or never used for breeding."
> 
> The implication of "in their creation dogs that bit were culled or never used for breeding" is "ALL". That is simply what I am correcting. Dogmen didn't select against biting. They selected for the best fighters. The best fighters were the ones that focused on the job at hand and didn't redirect to handlers while in the pit. That is very very different then breeders selecting specifically for docility. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I owe you a bit of an apology. I did have you mixed up with somebody else.

Too much BS in this thread.

I will give you the information WHICH IS CORRECT about the culling and not passing man aggressive tendencies on.

It is from Richard F. Stratton's _THE TRUTH ABOUT THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER._

I can't get into page specifics at this time but there IS NO DOUBT that the earliest and best game dogs were man friendly and desired.

Handlers separating pit dogs didn't want the dogs to turn on them.

It is well documented and makes complete sense. It also was what led to the general happy, go lucky attitude of the breed early on.

If needed I'll provide a page number as well when I have time. I know my stuff and really should not have to prove anything here in a snake post. However I thought you were a different poster and was confused since the post went off track. 

I will also find it in the Colby book, and probably _THE WORLD OF FIGHTING DOGS_ and other media I have.

The simple fact that I have done field work with them and been with others who have as well is also very telling.



TRUE game bred pits were family dogs for the most part and EXTREMELY man friendly.

Wanna be dog men have ruined the breed, destroyed their reputation and created a completely different animal which is now crucified by the media.

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## KingWheatley

Staying on this tangent... Pits have always come across to me as just big loyal lovable dummies with huge hearts and an intense need to please.

I doubt the animal is that much different. Just that people used and abused the "practically undying loyalty" aspect to train the empty headed muscle machines to be aggressive/defensive.

That is just how I view it. Nothing but personal experience with many members of the breed, and none professional.


Herp Derp

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## voodoolamb

> I owe you a bit of an apology. I did have you mixed up with somebody else.
> 
> Too much BS in this thread.
> 
> I will give you the information WHICH IS CORRECT about the culling and not passing man aggressive tendencies on.
> 
> It is from Richard F. Stratton's _THE TRUTH ABOUT THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER._
> 
> I can't get into page specifics at this time but there IS NO DOUBT that the earliest and best game dogs were man friendly and desired.
> ...


If you get the time I would be interested - I still have my copy of Colby's book. I don't think I have ever read Stratton's though. 

I think this is one of those mythos where the truth lies somewhere in the middle. My opinion is based on match reports, interviews with dog men, old gazette articles and pedigree research. Heck even old classifieds from the early 1900s touting the bull terriers as watch dogs.

I am content to let this be an agree to disagree thing. 

Believe it or not we are 100% on the same side. Both pit bull loving people that wants what is best for the breed. We might disagree with what that is exactly and we definitely disagree on breeding practices 50 - 100 years ago but at heart are both fanciers of the dogs and it sounds like we've both had pretty amazing ones in our lives.

I've owned game bred pits - i once had to use a break stick on a boy while playing with a tether pole. He landed on a baby copper head and got bit. Latched onto that tug and would not let go. (How's that for gameness?!) Had to break him off to take him to the emergency vet. Silly goose of a dog. He was an amazing and sweet boy. Actually he saved my life once. Fell asleep with my TV on and it caught fire!  :Surprised:  He woke me up. 

It's the same with snakes (getting back on topic!). Not every snake is right for every snake owner and some complete *insert BP-net inappropriate mean word here* get ones they are in no way, shape or form capable of owning then a tragedy happens... and it ruins it for those of us who are responsible. 

Which is probably about 85% of the reason I an a total misanthrope :p

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## voodoolamb

> Staying on this tangent... Pits have always come across to me as just big loyal lovable dummies with huge hearts and an intense need to please.
> 
> I doubt the animal is that much different. Just that people used and abused the "practically undying loyalty" aspect to train the empty headed muscle machines to be aggressive/defensive.
> 
> That is just how I view it. Nothing but personal experience with many members of the breed, and none professional.
> 
> 
> Herp Derp


You can't really train a non aggressive dog to be aggressive. There is a HUGE genetic component. 

If a dog has the drives to be aggressive you can train it to use its aggression at your discretion. 

But there is a reason that labradors aren't used as patrol dogs and why poodles were never used in blood sports.

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## KingWheatley

> You can't really train a non aggressive dog to be aggressive. There is a HUGE genetic component. 
> 
> If a dog has the drives to be aggressive you can train it to use its aggression at your discretion. 
> 
> But there is a reason that labradors aren't used as patrol dogs and why poodles were never used in blood sports.


Actually... Labs are used as patrol dogs.

My ex's department has two Labs, one German shepherd, and one other dog who I don't remember the breed of.

Also Lexington Metro Police Department just got a new Chocolate Lab as a K-9. 

Herp Derp

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## voodoolamb

> Actually... Labs are used as patrol dogs.
> 
> My ex's department has two Labs, one German shepherd, and one other dog who I don't remember the breed of.
> 
> Also Lexington Metro Police Department just got a new Chocolate Lab as a K-9. 
> 
> Herp Derp


No they are not. Labs are used as single purpose detection dogs in K9 units. NOT for patrol work aka bite work. 

Single purpose dogs are cheaper and less of a liability which us why some police departments have them. Labs being hunting dogs have a great sense of smell and good prey/ball drive so they make swell detection K9s.

The patrol dogs are always of a breed that was selected to be civil (meaning it has a willingness to bite a person). Shepherds, malinois, and Dutch shepherds being most common. A handful of other herding and guardian breeds can be found but they are pretty rare.

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## KingWheatley

> No they are not. Labs are used as single purpose detection dogs in K9 units. NOT for patrol work aka bite work. 
> 
> Single purpose dogs are cheaper and less of a liability which us why some police departments have them. Labs being hunting dogs have a great sense of smell and good prey/ball drive so they make swell detection K9s.
> 
> The patrol dogs are always of a breed that was selected to be civil (meaning it has a willingness to bite a person). Shepherds, malinois, and Dutch shepherds being most common. A handful of other herding and guardian breeds can be found but they are pretty rare.


"Patrol dogs." These dogs do go on patrol. But both departments do not have what they would call "bite dogs."

Now, dog breeder/selling may have different lingo, however I am VERY familiar with police especially around here.

Terms are as follows:

"Bite dog" a take down dog. Lexington Metro to my knowledge has none. UKPD absolutely has none. They are too much of a liability to the college.

"Patrol dog" a dog who is making rounds with their handler. Usually going to be a lab or "friendly breed." Especially at U.K. They are ALL about appearances, and not looking too intimidating, so the German Shepherd is never out as a patrol dog.

Then the usual sniffer and terms associated with the different sniffing talents.


Herp Derp

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## voodoolamb

> "Patrol dogs." These dogs do go on patrol. But both departments do not have what they would call "bite dogs."





> Now, dog breeder/selling may have different lingo, however I am VERY familiar with police especially around here.
> 
> Terms are as follows:
> 
> "Bite dog" a take down dog. Lexington Metro to my knowledge has none. UKPD absolutely has none. They are too much of a liability to the college.
> 
> "Patrol dog" a dog who is making rounds with their handler. Usually going to be a lab or "friendly breed." Especially at U.K. They are ALL about appearances, and not looking too intimidating, so the German Shepherd is never out as a patrol dog.
> 
> Then the usual sniffer and terms associated with the different sniffing talents.
> ...




You must live in an outlier area. That is not the typical lingo even amongst police departments. Perhaps it is used colloquially at that department to refer to any police dog. 

"Patrol Dog" is the name of a certification. Check out the United State's Police K9 Association's (A large national organization which many police departments use to certify their teams) certification requirements:

http://www.uspcak9.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/PATROL-DOG-I-CERTIFICATION-RULES-2016.pdf

As you can see the "Patrol Dog" certification includes a section on criminal apprehension aka bite work. The other North American k9 associations use similar terminology. Detection dogs have their own certifications that don't use that terminology.

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KingWheatley (11-01-2016)

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## KingWheatley

> You must live in an outlier area. That is not the typical lingo even amongst police departments. Perhaps it is used colloquially at that department to refer to any police dog. 
> 
> "Patrol Dog" is the name of a certification. Check out the United State's Police K9 Association's (A large national organization which many police departments use to certify their teams) certification requirements:
> 
> http://www.uspcak9.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/PATROL-DOG-I-CERTIFICATION-RULES-2016.pdf
> 
> As you can see the "Patrol Dog" certification includes a section on criminal apprehension aka bite work. The other North American k9 associations use similar terminology. Detection dogs have their own certifications that don't use that terminology.


That makes sense. Perhaps instead of referring to the certification, they are simply referring to what they are actively assigned to. Like one officer that's assigned to the Paddy Wagon wouldn't be called a "patrol officer" but "garbage pick up...." (a joke, of course)


Herp Derp

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_voodoolamb_ (11-01-2016)

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## Gio

> If you get the time I would be interested - I still have my copy of Colby's book. I don't think I have ever read Stratton's though. 
> 
> I think this is one of those mythos where the truth lies somewhere in the middle. My opinion is based on match reports, interviews with dog men, old gazette articles and pedigree research. Heck even old classifieds from the early 1900s touting the bull terriers as watch dogs.
> 
> I am content to let this be an agree to disagree thing. 
> 
> Believe it or not we are 100% on the same side. Both pit bull loving people that wants what is best for the breed. We might disagree with what that is exactly and we definitely disagree on breeding practices 50 - 100 years ago but at heart are both fanciers of the dogs and it sounds like we've both had pretty amazing ones in our lives.
> 
> I've owned game bred pits - i once had to use a break stick on a boy while playing with a tether pole. He landed on a baby copper head and got bit. Latched onto that tug and would not let go. (How's that for gameness?!) Had to break him off to take him to the emergency vet. Silly goose of a dog. He was an amazing and sweet boy. Actually he saved my life once. Fell asleep with my TV on and it caught fire!  He woke me up. 
> ...



Strattons' book is an excellent read and doesn't contain any myths. You are starting a bit later on in the history of the breed. The practice of culling is centuries old within the earliest formation of the breed. He (Stratton) regularly read the Pit Bull Gazette and 35 Years of Fighting Dogs is also favorably mentioned in his writing. Unfortunately I can't site anything again because I'm not by the books.

We don't disagree at all on breeding practices at least I never got that impression. The point I made was the traits that were sought after beyond being a gamer by some of the folks. I don't believe I went further into my views on breeding. 

I'll PM you the info in the book and also look at the rest of my materials.

I've been doing most of this tread on a cell phone which has been very frustrating and I'm not near my books.

I will give you a few other books as well.

There is a big reason these (Pits) were the ultimate family dog back in the day.

Gameness is only part of it though it is the largest part. Quality breeding for stability was a trait that was preferred.

You simply can't deal with a "pit situation" with a completely erratic animal.

The dogs were focused on the job/task at hand, and when being broken up or restarted it was always preferred, but not always the case to have something handleable.

Back then a 60 pound dog was considered a larger animal as well.

Today's dogs are not the same for the most part.  

I'm glad you pointed out that I had you confused with another poster.

I'll PM you today or tomorrow.

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## Gio

In the event anybody is still interested or was doubting my earlier comments about the early creation of the APBT and how "man biters" were not desired and often culled you can read the info in an article that mentions Richard F. Stratton. (Page 20) He is what I would call an expert on the history of these dogs, and also well know in the game dog scene.

His research and involvement in the breed can't really be questioned. He names the names and the dogs from the past and shares his views whether you agree with them or not, he is more than qualified.

The online article is here:
http://arizona.openrepository.com/ar...182_sip1_m.pdf

Younger people may not understand that this breed dates way back. Richard is no spring chicken himself. He is one of the most passionate men when it comes to the TRUE American Pit Bull Terrier.

An interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwCkcnccXmw

Again I have no doubt that the information I passed on was legit, and it is sited in more than one source. Some may disagree but you are more than likely speaking of the exceptions rather than the rule. These were very sound dogs.


I own 2 of the 4 books here and both discuss the culling/euthanizing of pit dogs that bit man.
https://www.amazon.com/Book-American.../dp/0866227199

 As a general rule it was an oddity to have man biters. That is not to say they didn't exist, but they were not as desired as stable game dogs.

It is flat out documented in both books. As a matter of fact a portion of a quote on page 80 from Stratton's first book reads like this. _"old dog men called them (man biters) screwballs and had them euthanized."_ 

Though not flat out stated in this book although it could be I didn't have time to read it all over again, the underlying theme is that man biters were frowned upon and it is certainly implied if you read through. Colby is probably the most influential name in the foundation of the breed. My first pit was 1/2 Colby lines.

https://www.amazon.com/Colbys-Book-A.../dp/079382091X

These are NOT myths. The breed, at one time was one of the most confident, loyal and loving dog breeds to walk the planet. Some of the best champion dogs were able to live with other animals in complete harmony and were more than affectionate and loyal to their families. They were one of the breeds least likely to bite people. Back in the day dogs often roamed and there were no leash laws. A good, confident pit knew its place and rarely caused problems according to much of these writings.

There is a reason for it and it has a lot to do with breeding history. Common sense should tell a person that any dog breeding line should contain stability. Erratic behavior generally took away from the goal and made resetting and tending to the dogs challenging.


I have several others books on this breed and many other "fighting" breeds and some field experience in various dog sport and personal protection trials. I'm not making any of this up and if you doubt me, I urge you to read about the breed history (old old history), and the old dog men and come to your own conclusion.

While pits can and do excel at dog sport and protection sports today, they are far outnumbered by the tradition breeds. Sheps, Mals, Dutchies and so on. 
It isn't the true nature of a pit bull to want to bite man. Centuries leading up to and during the creation of the breed have an influence.

That said I was able to get our female into the sports but she was far more interested in kisses and pets from bystanders in our training group. I miss her dearly as she was our first and I was able get her OB title in PSA.

Voodoolamb,

I certainly consider you an asset to the breed and decided to post the books here for you, and others if they are genuinely interested in pit bulls.

I felt it more educational than a PM if others wanted to research the breed. 

Somebody earlier in this thread took an unwarranted shot at the breed and I felt compelled to jump in with facts. Having owned pits, worked and titled one and now owning a wonderful, racey, built, (old school body type) black pit rescue I can attest to the REAL temperament of these dogs.

So much for the part about snakes in my lost thread  : )

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