# Colubrids > General Colubrids >  Small amount of blood after defecating

## aurum

I've noticed my kingsnake passing a little bit of blood after she poops a couple times now. The first was when she was in a tub while I was cleaning her tank, and she then shed about half and hour later. I was a little concerned but thought it might just have something to do with the shed and a sensitive vent, so I decided to wait and see if it would happen again. She pooped just fine a few times after that, but I noticed it again today. To clarify, the actual feces look very normal, the blood isn't passed with them, and it's just a tiny amount that comes out at the end. From some searching I've found a few situations that sound similar to mine, but I haven't been able to find many clear answers. What sounds most likely is overstraining or possibly parasites. Does anyone know why this is happening? Is a vet visit in order?

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022)

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## aurum

heres a picture to get an idea of what it looks like.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (04-04-2021)

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## Bogertophis

If it's not associated with a fresh shed, I'd suggest talking to a vet.  Agree it may be parasites* & if so, it's easy to treat & best not ignored.  (I've never heard of a snake with a hemorrhoid?)  *She probably just needs dosed with Flagyl (for protozoans) or something.

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aurum (04-04-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> ...What sounds most likely is overstraining or possibly parasites. Does anyone know why this is happening? Is a vet visit in order?


I've never heard of a snake "overstraining", btw, unless she's been constipated?  Even then it would most likely be irritation from dried urate stones, not actually straining?

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## aurum

> I've never heard of a snake "overstraining", btw, unless she's been constipated?  Even then it would most likely be irritation from dried urate stones, not actually straining?


I'm not exactly sure how that would work either, but it's the answer I saw most often when looking for people with similar situations.

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## Bogertophis

Please do keep us posted- I hope your little cutie will be okay, & if it's what I suspect, it's usually an easy fix.

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aurum (04-05-2021)

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## aurum

I was able to take her to the vet today and get a fecal sent out. She was a very good sport about the whole ordeal, and hopefully I should have more answers in a couple days when the lab results come back.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (04-14-2021)

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## Bogertophis

Thanks for the update- and  :Good Job:

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aurum (04-14-2021)

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## aurum

We got the fecal results back and it looks like she has pinworms. The vet prescribed some medication (I don't know the specific kind yet) to be given with a food item every two weeks for three doses. Is there anything else I can do to help treatment? I'm planning to switch her to paper towels and try to scrub everything down periodically so she can't somehow re-infect herself with the eggs. Do you have any suggestions for how frequent that should be?

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (04-20-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> We got the fecal results back and it looks like she has pinworms. The vet prescribed some medication (I don't know the specific kind yet) to be given with a food item every two weeks for three doses. Is there anything else I can do to help treatment? I'm planning to switch her to paper towels and try to scrub everything down periodically so she can't somehow re-infect herself with the eggs. Do you have any suggestions for how frequent that should be?


 :Good Job:   I would say that for now, change the paper towels any time she defecates.  You might ask the vet about this, as to their viability during her medication?

Actual worms tend to dry out & die on paper towels- when I've dewormed snakes, that's what I observed- some came out alive but didn't get very far. Gag.

But I've read that pinworm eggs can actually survive 2-3 weeks on surfaces (apparently they stick on rather well) and please remember that you can catch them too- pinworms are all too happy to infect people, so wash your hands very well & securely dispose of her bedding.  Might even want to use disposable gloves.

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aurum (04-20-2021),_dakski_ (04-21-2021),_Spicey_ (04-20-2021)

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## dakski

Aurum, 

Sorry to hear about the pinworms. You've got great advice from Bogertophis and it sounds like your vet is on top of it too. 

I would make sure the treatment last for a few doses if every 2 weeks. Did I understand that right? The dose is administered every 2-3 weeks? Bogertophis pointed out you want to kill the pinworms and their eggs. So if 2 doses kills all the pinworms, the third dose would presumably ensure that the eggs are dead too. Not an expert, but have dealt with parasites in newly acquired animals before. You want to give medication until all worms and eggs are dead. 

Once the treatment is done I would clean the heck out of her tank. Anything plastic - hides, etc. need to be cleaned with F10SC and/or Chlorhexidine solution. Anything that is that is not totally smooth - throw out!

Fake or real branches, rough style hides, vines, etc. All gone. If you absolutely are set on these items, I would soak them in F10SC solution for a while - like days, then rinse with water, let dry and then put back. 

However, I would recommend new furnishings. 

I would also plan to keep your snake on printless newspaper or paper towels for a while so you can spot any unusual waste easily. I would note that it might not get back to normal right away after medication even if the pinworms are gone. 

Finally, I would be changing your water frequently. If you normally change and clean your bowl weekly, do it every 3 days instead. Make sure your snake is staying hydrated with clean water. 

Good luck and keep us posted on the progress.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),aurum (04-29-2021)

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## Bogertophis

Besides paper towels, other paper (newspaper & such) is fine for substrate too, I just didn't think to mention it- maybe because my "newspaper" is now online & far less absorbent?   :Very Happy:

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aurum (04-29-2021)

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## aurum

> Aurum, 
> 
> Sorry to hear about the pinworms. You've got great advice from Bogertophis and it sounds like your vet is on top of it too. 
> 
> I would make sure the treatment last for a few doses if every 2 weeks. Did I understand that right? The dose is administered every 2-3 weeks? Bogertophis pointed out you want to kill the pinworms and their eggs. So if 2 doses kills all the pinworms, the third dose would presumably ensure that the eggs are dead too. Not an expert, but have dealt with parasites in newly acquired animals before. You want to give medication until all worms and eggs are dead. 
> 
> Once the treatment is done I would clean the heck out of her tank. Anything plastic - hides, etc. need to be cleaned with F10SC and/or Chlorhexidine solution. Anything that is that is not totally smooth - throw out!
> 
> Fake or real branches, rough style hides, vines, etc. All gone. If you absolutely are set on these items, I would soak them in F10SC solution for a while - like days, then rinse with water, let dry and then put back. 
> ...


Thanks for the note about still having abnormal waste even after medication, I was wondering about that. At that point, if that is happening, I'll probably check in with my vet again too to see what they say. And yes, treatment is given every 2 weeks, 3 times, for a total of six weeks. I gave her the first dose a couple days ago, and it is panacur by the way. 

So far I've scrubbed out her enclosure and everything else with clorhexidine, changed her over to paper towels, and taken out all decor except two hides, her water bowl, and some paper towel tubes. I also change her water almost daily anyway so it looks like I'm on track with that. 
I would preferably like to keep her other decor items, so I was actually thinking of getting a steam cleaner to really kill everything with the high heat. I think it would also be good investment for future tank cleaning and other jobs around the house. Does that sound effective as well?

I'm also wondering if there's better technique for injecting the panacur into the feeder rodent. This first time I tried to stick the syringe in the mouse's mouth and get the medication down its throat, but that was pretty messy since most did not go down and just kind of just spilled out of its mouth. My snake still got the full dose when she ate it, but if there is a neater way to do this I'd like to know  :Very Happy: 

Lastly, since I've read deworming basically decimates the gut flora, I was thinking about getting her this bird and reptile probiotic and mixing it into her water: https://www.amazon.com/Bene-Bac-Bird...0002ASS3E?th=1
I saw this recommended on an old old post on this forum. Would it hurt to try?

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (04-29-2021),_dakski_ (04-30-2021)

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## Bogertophis

When I've given Panacur, that's how I did it too- in the oral cavity of the rodent.  It's too thick to literally inject into the rodent, & a snake would literally choke on the stuff if it's not in a rodent.  

Agree with using Bene-Bac too (wait until after all treatments are done)- it's good stuff & probably helpful.  I've used it too, after antibiotic therapy, etc.   :Good Job: 

You might check with your vet, but I can't imagine any pinworm surviving a steam cleaner- sounds like a good idea to me.  Hang in there... :Cool:

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),aurum (04-29-2021),_dakski_ (04-30-2021)

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## aurum

Since my last post she's passed waste three or four times already. It doesn't contain any stool, and I don't even know if it's actual urates. If it is, they are not the urates I'm used to seeing. They're kind of a brownish white and more stringy (?) than clumpy in appearance, if that makes sense. They are also passed with a lot of liquid. 
I think this might just be her body's natural response to the dewormer, but the frequency and weird look is concerning me a little. Does this sound like what's expected?

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## Bogertophis

> Since my last post she's passed waste three or four times already. It doesn't contain any stool, and I don't even know if it's actual urates. If it is, they are not the urates I'm used to seeing. They're kind of a brownish white and more stringy (?) than clumpy in appearance, if that makes sense. They are also passed with a lot of liquid. 
> I think this might just be her body's natural response to the dewormer, but the frequency and weird look is concerning me a little. Does this sound like what's expected?


Hard to say, but probably normal under the circumstances (medication & all)- but you should ask your vet.  I've dewormed snakes but not for pinworms.

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## aurum

> Hard to say, but probably normal under the circumstances (medication & all)- but you should ask your vet.  I've dewormed snakes but not for pinworms.


Just contacted my vet - will update with their reply. On the slightly bright side, I forgot to add that I haven't seen any blood with her waste the past couple times she's gone.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (04-30-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> Just contacted my vet - will update with their reply. On the slightly bright side, I forgot to add that I haven't seen any blood with her waste the past couple times she's gone.


Good, & I think what you're seeing is normal but better to ask your vet.   :Good Job:   And no blood is definitely a win!

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022)

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## aurum

I'm still in the middle of correspondence with my vet. They do think this is abnormal, but we haven't come to any conclusions yet. In the meantime I'm trying to think of how she contracted pinworms in the first place. I'd like to think I've been pretty on top of hygiene for her because although I don't keep in the most sterile set up, I spot clean daily, change her water almost daily, scrub out the water bowl around every two weeks, change the substrate and disinfect everything with clorhexidine roughly every 2-3 months, and anything from outside that I've put in her tank has been scrubbed and baked. The only other thing I can think of is through her feeders, which I originally didn't consider since they're all frozen, but apparently pinworm eggs have been known to survive at 18*F, so I'm not going to rule that out completely. Any thoughts?

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022)

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## Erie_herps

> The only other thing I can think of is through her feeders, which I originally didn't consider since they're all frozen, but apparently pinworm eggs have been known to survive at 18*F, so I'm not going to rule that out completely. Any thoughts?


What temperature is your freezer, most are 0*F so they likely wouldn't survive. However if your freezer is a higher temperature it is a possibility.

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aurum (05-03-2021)

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## aurum

> What temperature is your freezer, most are 0*F so they likely wouldn't survive. However if your freezer is a higher temperature it is a possibility.


Just checked and yeah, it is around 1*F so it looks like I can get rid of that theory. Thanks for the info.

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## Bogertophis

> I'm still in the middle of correspondence with my vet. They do think this is abnormal, but we haven't come to any conclusions yet. In the meantime I'm trying to think of how she contracted pinworms in the first place. I'd like to think I've been pretty on top of hygiene for her because although I don't keep in the most sterile set up, I spot clean daily, change her water almost daily, scrub out the water bowl around every two weeks, change the substrate and disinfect everything with clorhexidine roughly every 2-3 months, and anything from outside that I've put in her tank has been scrubbed and baked. The only other thing I can think of is through her feeders, which I originally didn't consider since they're all frozen, but apparently pinworm eggs have been known to survive at 18*F, so I'm not going to rule that out completely. Any thoughts?


How long have you had this snake?  I believe she most likely had them already when she came to you.  Snakes are stoic & not everyone is an observant keeper- children can easily pass along pinworms to pets or vice versa, & snakes can have worms for a long time if no one is paying any attention or thinks that the minor symptoms are "normal".

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## aurum

> How long have you had this snake?  I believe she most likely had them already when she came to you.  Snakes are stoic & not everyone is an observant keeper- children can easily pass along pinworms to pets or vice versa, & snakes can have worms for a long time if no one is paying any attention or thinks that the minor symptoms are "normal".


I've had her for a little over a year and a half now and she was only a couple months old when I got her. I never noticed any of the blood until recently and I am pretty observant of her. What are the other minor symptoms I could have missed though?

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## Bogertophis

> I've had her for a little over a year and a half now and she was only a couple months old when I got her. I never noticed any of the blood until recently and I am pretty observant of her. What are the other minor symptoms I could have missed though?


The first "thing" would be general "unwellness"- a vague sense that something's not right & underweight compared to her intake of food;  my guess is that if she's had them this long, that may be why you're still seeing what the vet considers to be abnormal stool.  Snakes are stoic & king snakes are typically such voracious eaters, there was probably nothing else you could have seen until you noticed the blood in her stool.  (As in the list below, I'm quite sure you'd have noticed, so don't beat yourself up.) 

 Has she ever been fed live or fresh-killed prey?  That could have been the source.  Frozen prey seems very unlikely.

Quick general search from "Dr. Google":
Among *reptiles*, the most common infections are *roundworms* (including ascarids), hookworms and *pinworms*.
...
*Reptiles with intestinal parasites frequently have the following symptoms:*

Poor appetite.Weight loss.Vomiting or regurgitation.Abnormal appearing stools.Diarrhea.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),aurum (05-03-2021)

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## aurum

> The first "thing" would be general "unwellness"- a vague sense that something's not right & underweight compared to her intake of food;  my guess is that if she's had them this long, that may be why you're still seeing what the vet considers to be abnormal stool.  Snakes are stoic & king snakes are typically such voracious eaters, there was probably nothing else you could have seen until you noticed the blood in her stool.  (As in the list below, I'm quite sure you'd have noticed, so don't beat yourself up.)  Has she ever been fed live or fresh-killed prey?  That could have been the source.
> 
> Quick general search from "Dr. Google":
> Among *reptiles*, the most common infections are *roundworms* (including ascarids), hookworms and *pinworms*.
> ...
> *Reptiles with intestinal parasites frequently have the following symptoms:*
> 
> Poor appetite.Weight loss.Vomiting or regurgitation.Abnormal appearing stools.Diarrhea.


Just for clarification, this abnormal waste only showed up after giving medication, and I have never seen anything like it from her before. Or were you saying that having parasites for so long would have caused a reaction like this to medication?

She has never seemed "unwell" to me. Even now when I know she's internally sick, she's very bright and responsive, and when the vet gave her an exam they said everything looked in really good shape externally. With weight, her body condition and growth rate has also always appeared fine to me but I don't have a lot of experience especially with normal growth rate. If it helps: she was about 10g and 1ft at a couple months old, and she is about 200g and 3ft now at a year and a half. 
It's possible that her breeder fed her live pinkies at some point, but I don't know that for sure and she has only ever eaten f/t with me.

Also, my vet responded, and the plan is to do another fecal to see how much the first dose helped reduce the parasite load. They don't really want to give her a second dose since she had such an abnormal reaction to it, so I guess this test would see if that would be necessary or not.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> Just for clarification, this abnormal waste only showed up after giving medication, and I have never seen anything like it from her before. Or were you saying that having parasites for so long would have caused a reaction like this to medication?
> 
> She has never seemed "unwell" to me. Even now when I know she's internally sick, she's very bright and responsive, and when the vet gave her an exam they said everything looked in really good shape externally. With weight, her body condition and growth rate has also always appeared fine to me but I don't have a lot of experience especially with normal growth rate. If it helps: she was about 10g and 1ft at a couple months old, and she is about 200g and 3ft now at a year and a half. 
> It's possible that her breeder fed her live pinkies at some point, but I don't know that for sure and she has only ever eaten f/t with me.
> 
> Also, my vet responded, and the plan is to do another fecal to see how much the first dose helped reduce the parasite load. They don't really want to give her a second dose since she had such an abnormal reaction to it, so I guess this test would see if that would be necessary or not.


You've got the right vet, sounds like to me.  And no, I didn't mean it was a reaction to the medication at all:  worms can do some damage, & my thought was that some tissue was sloughed off from the medication, not just worms being expelled.  But from your description, I suspect she'll be fine.  Her growth sounds normal to me.  And I can tell you that in the wild, these (speckled king snakes) are almost always heavily-parasitized, & yet they survive.

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aurum (05-03-2021)

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## aurum

Some not great updates: I started hearing whistley breathing from her today. I checked inside her mouth and there's no excess saliva or inflammation as far as I can tell, and she was quiet when I held her up to my ear. It seems like she only whistles when exerting herself or just breathing out a little harder. I thought it might be shed inside the nostrils, but considering she isn't at full health right now I'm much more concerned. I let my vet know right away, and I'll see if they want to examine her again. 
She also passed waste again. I'm very glad that the frequency has gone down, but this one still looked weird. More like actual stool than any of the others, but way too pale and mucous-y.
She did accept food today though, and like I've said before her behavior seems normal. I'm just so worried about her...I really want her to be okay.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (05-04-2021)

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## Bogertophis

I don't blame you one bit for wanting her to be 100% healthy as fast as possible (& so do I-), but unfortunately, it may take a little while for her body to make repairs & get back to normal.  The mucus & appearance of the stool is a tip-off- just keep your vet informed & see what they say.  Poor little snake has been thru a lot.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),aurum (05-04-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> How long have you had this snake?  I believe she most likely had them already when she came to you.  Snakes are stoic & not everyone is an observant keeper- children can easily pass along pinworms to pets or vice versa, & snakes can have worms for a long time if no one is paying any attention or thinks that the minor symptoms are "normal".


By the way, just to be clear, when I said "not everyone is an observant keeper", I wasn't referring to you- I meant whomever you got this snake from.   :Wink:

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aurum (05-05-2021)

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## aurum

Hooray! After this week's meal (no panacur) she gave me a very normal stool, no blood even, after a normal amount of time digesting. I still have a lot to figure out with her treatment and everything, but I am taking this as a good thing.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (05-07-2021),_dakski_ (05-07-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> Hooray! After this week's meal (no panacur) she gave me a very normal stool, no blood even, after a normal amount of time digesting. I still have a lot to figure out with her treatment and everything, but I am taking this as a good thing.


 :Good Job:   Great news!  "Normal" is exactly what we want to see.   :Smile:

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aurum (05-07-2021)

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## aurum

The second fecal we did came back negative for pinworms, which is good, but I also don't know if I can trust it completely, since the stool sample I submitted was the weird, grayish, goopy one and not a normal stool. Based on the results though, my vet recommended that I don't give her the second dose of Panacur and just monitor and update them with any changes. Restarting treatment is an option in the future if necessary. I think this sounds like a good plan for now, and just for my peace of mind I'll also request another fecal in a few weeks.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (05-09-2021)

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## Bogertophis

I think the "grayish goopy stool" is probably just an upset tummy from the medication, but I agree wholeheartedly with your plan.  When I've de-wormed snakes, I dosed on the light side too, knowing how sensitive snakes can be to various medications.  You can always dose again IF you need to.  It comes down to "First, do no harm."   :Good Job:

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),aurum (05-09-2021)

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## Bogertophis

How is she doing now?  any change?

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## aurum

Her symptoms are largely the same: normal stool with a tiny amount of or no blood, and normal healthy behavior. I've been waiting for her to pass waste a few more times so I have some more data for the vet and then get their thoughts on what to do moving forward. I'd ask for the fecal then too.

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*Bogertophis* (05-24-2021)

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## Bogertophis

Rats, I was hoping & thought there'd be no more bleeding.  But it's good she's eating & acting normal, maybe just needs some healing?  It's hard to "rest" the GI tract.  Fingers crossed for her.

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aurum (05-24-2021)

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## aurum

Getting another fecal sent out tomorrow, and unfortunately there was some dried blood with this one too. Another thing I'm concerned about is her whistle-y breathing. I've been keeping an eye on it ever since I first noticed and it is definitely still there, maybe even more frequent. The thing is I've also been checking her mouth periodically and I can't see any excess saliva as far as I can tell? I think I'll just book an exam and get a culture done for an RI anyway though, I don't know what else could be causing this and kingsnakes aren't known for being naturally "noisy".

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (06-02-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> Getting another fecal sent out tomorrow, and unfortunately there was some dried blood with this one too. Another thing I'm concerned about is her whistle-y breathing. I've been keeping an eye on it ever since I first noticed and it is definitely still there, maybe even more frequent. The thing is I've also been checking her mouth periodically and I can't see any excess saliva as far as I can tell? I think I'll just book an exam and get a culture done for an RI anyway though, I don't know what else could be causing this and kingsnakes aren't known for being naturally "noisy".


Sorry to hear that you're still seeing a bit of blood.  Wonder what the vet will say about that?  :Confused:  

I hate to say this but snakes can get worms in their lungs too.  Do ask your vet.  Search for lung worms in snakes- lots of links such as-

http://www.animalplanet.com/pets/oth...s/pentastomes/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996842/

https://wildlife.org/watch-invasive-...lorida-snakes/

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),aurum (06-04-2021)

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## aurum

Thanks for the links, I sent an email out to my vet about the lung worms, but unfortunately he's not going to be in the office until June 10th. I really hope she doesn't have them though, it looks like there's basically no treatment  :Sad:

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*Bogertophis* (06-04-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> Thanks for the links, I sent an email out to my vet about the lung worms, but unfortunately he's not going to be in the office until June 10th. I really hope she doesn't have them though, it looks like there's basically no treatment


I hope that's not her problem also, & I hesitated to mention it, but figured your own research could easily turn that up anyway.  Sorry your vet is absent for a while, I know how badly you want some answers & help for your sweet snake.

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aurum (06-04-2021)

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## aurum

Got the results from the fecal back and she does still have some pinworms. Given that she also still has a little bit of blood with her stool my vet recommended we deworm again even though she did have an abnormal reaction the first time, and to try and prevent that we are lowering the dose this time. 
I haven't gone in for an exam for her respiratory issues yet, but one thing I've been thinking about is if nido is a possibility here? I know it's much more common in pythons, but colubrids can have it too, and based on some things I've heard about it, it can sit and be asymptomatic for years and then pop up as an RI when the snake is exposed to enough stressors. I just feel like that matches what I've seen with my snake where the respiratory issues only popped up after the stress of dealing with the deworming medication. No other husbandry factors had changed to incite a bacterial infection and kingsnakes aren't usually prone to those anyway. I'm not sure though, and it might just be my anxiety trying to find a scary answer before I have any real ones, so I thought I'd ask the forum.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (06-11-2021)

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## Bogertophis

Sorry to hear you're still dealing with this (pinworms) but it's not too surprising, considering the symptoms she still has.  

I don't personally know enough about nido to answer that- I've happily never dealt with it, but you might ask the vet too.  It's a great question that needs asking.  Then again, it's easy for any of us to be anxious when our pets aren't well & when the treatment doesn't immediately resolve the issue.

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aurum (06-11-2021)

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## aurum

I gave her the last dose of Panacur a few days ago and it seems to have helped somewhat? Sometimes I do still see a tiny amount of blood and sometimes I don't. I think I'll watch her stool for another couple feedings and then talk to my vet again if nothing improves. They recommended possibly doing a fecal culture or ultrasound if the Panacur treatment didn't work, so I might end up going ahead with that. 
As for her respiratory issues I'm not really sure what to do about them. I was originally going to take her in for a culture to see if it was anything bacteria related, but the sounds I'm hearing are more like an occasional whistle than the wheezing and popping I normally hear about, and every time I check her mouth for excess saliva it looks normal to me. I guess I just don't know if there will be anything to find, and I don't want to put her through another vet visit if I don't have to.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (07-14-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> I gave her the last dose of Panacur a few days ago and it seems to have helped somewhat? Sometimes I do still see a tiny amount of blood and sometimes I don't. I think I'll watch her stool for another couple feedings and then talk to my vet again if nothing improves. They recommended possibly doing a fecal culture or ultrasound if the Panacur treatment didn't work, so I might end up going ahead with that. 
> As for her respiratory issues I'm not really sure what to do about them. I was originally going to take her in for a culture to see if it was anything bacteria related, but the sounds I'm hearing are more like an occasional whistle than the wheezing and popping I normally hear about, and every time I check her mouth for excess saliva it looks normal to me. I guess I just don't know if there will be anything to find, and I don't want to put her through another vet visit if I don't have to.


A slight whistle might just be normal for her- just like some people may have a deviated septum or other imperfection, it's possible your snake does too.  And maybe it's just enough to trap water or debris that make the sounds?

Sorry that you're still seeing a tiny bit of blood when she defecates- that's a really stubborn issue, unusually-so.  I agree that your vet can best help you if it continues.  I was hoping it would have been all cleared up by now.   :Confused:

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),aurum (07-14-2021)

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## aurum

After updating my vet they recommended another exam to try and figure out what else might be going on since the panacur wasn't working for her. They were very booked up, so the soonest I was able to take her there was yesterday. 
She did well on her physical exam and instead of any further testing we decided to first try a new medication. My vet's theory is that the pinworms showing up in her fecal may actually be rodent pinworms from her food and are not what's affecting her, so the idea is that the new medication might be able to target something bacterial or parasitic that is not being reported on the standard fecal and could be the actual cause of her symptoms. The med is metronidazole/flagyl, and if this treatment doesn't work either our next step is a more in-depth fecal (I think he called it a fecal smear) that should hopefully reveal more about what's going on in her GI tract.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (09-25-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> After updating my vet they recommended another exam to try and figure out what else might be going on since the panacur wasn't working for her. They were very booked up, so the soonest I was able to take her there was yesterday. 
> She did well on her physical exam and instead of any further testing we decided to first try a new medication. My vet's theory is that the pinworms showing up in her fecal may actually be rodent pinworms from her food and are not what's affecting her, so the idea is that the new medication might be able to target something bacterial or parasitic that is not being reported on the standard fecal and could be the actual cause of her symptoms. The med is metronidazole/flagyl, and if this treatment doesn't work either our next step is a more in-depth fecal (I think he called it a fecal smear) that should hopefully reveal more about what's going on in her GI tract.


Good choice- I've used Flagyl in the past, it's pretty safe & effective- I sure hope this takes care of her lingering issue.   :Good Job:

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aurum (09-27-2021)

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## aurum

Huge breakthrough today!
To summarize the past few weeks: we did the flagyl treatment, and it went better than the panacur in that she had no weird reaction to it, but it still didnt solve the problem of blood specks. We then did a fecal float, but that didnt show any parasites that would need treatment, so my vet recommended we come in for blood work and/or crypto testing which is what we went in for today. 
During her exam though they actually found what looks like the true cause of her issue. One of the scent glands in her cloaca (the ones that produce musk) is enlarged and inflamed, and any sort of abrasion makes it bleed slightly.
So it seems like her GI tract is just fine and the specks of blood are coming from when her stool passes over that scent gland. 
We are still checking bloodwork and now cytology to see if the mass is cancerous, and its likely this will end with getting her scent glands surgically removed, but its still such a relief to finally know whats going on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (11-20-2021)

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## Bogertophis

Wow, that really took some doing to finally figure this out.  Makes total sense- it was so frustrating to keep putting her thru medications & their side effects.  It's a very rare issue, & even if the tissue found isn't currently cancerous, it might still be best to remove it to prevent that possibility, or further abrasion that could cause a lot more bleeding suddenly (like if she swallowed a bit of  something she couldn't digest, the bleeding might be severe from trying to pass it).  You're a great owner for sticking with this to get to the bottom of the mystery, &  :Good Job:  to your vet also.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),aurum (11-23-2021)

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## aurum

> Wow, that really took some doing to finally figure this out.  Makes total sense- it was so frustrating to keep putting her thru medications & their side effects.  It's a very rare issue, & even if the tissue found isn't currently cancerous, it might still be best to remove it to prevent that possibility, or further abrasion that could cause a lot more bleeding suddenly (like if she swallowed a bit of  something she couldn't digest, the bleeding might be severe from trying to pass it).  You're a great owner for sticking with this to get to the bottom of the mystery, &  to your vet also.


Thank you! And yes, it took a lot of trial and error and vet bills, but it's all worth it now. I'm honestly just glad it's something fixable--my vet has even performed this specific surgery before, so I'm pretty hopeful that everything will turn out alright. Another thing to be happy about this is that my vet cleared her to go back to her normal setup with loose substrate and decor, so she can get back to burrowing and climbing after all these months  :Smile:

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (11-23-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> Thank you! And yes, it took a lot of trial and error and vet bills, but it's all worth it now. I'm honestly just glad it's something fixable--my vet has even performed this specific surgery before, so I'm pretty hopeful that everything will turn out alright. Another thing to be happy about this is that my vet cleared her to go back to her normal setup with loose substrate and decor, so she can get back to burrowing and climbing after all these months


That's wonderful news- especially that your vet has done this surgery before too.   :Good Job:   I would think that after the surgery though, she'll be on paper towels for a little while again?  When are you having it done?

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## aurum

> That's wonderful news- especially that your vet has done this surgery before too.    I would think that after the surgery though, she'll be on paper towels for a little while again?  When are you having it done?


Yes, I am planning on putting her back on paper towel after the surgery, and I really don't mind reassembling, disassembling, then reassembling again. I think I miss her old enclosure more than she does  :Very Happy: 
I don't know exactly when we're going to do the surgery, but I'm assuming it'll be discussed after her test results come in later this week. Then there will probably be a bit of a wait depending on appointment availability.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (11-24-2021)

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## Bogertophis

I know what you mean- it's nice to watch our snakes enjoying their "home furnishings".

At least now you know what's going on- a little wait is no big deal, compared to the uncertainty you've had.

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aurum (11-24-2021)

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## aurum

Her test results came back today. The cytology read as inflammation, nothing cancerous, but the bloodwork showed an elevated white blood cell count, so they think this might be associated with the inflamed scent gland and want to treat with injectable antibiotics first before we consider other treatments.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (11-27-2021),_dakski_ (11-27-2021)

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## Bogertophis

> Her test results came back today. The cytology read as inflammation, nothing cancerous, but the bloodwork showed an elevated white blood cell count, so they think this might be associated with the inflamed scent gland and want to treat with injectable antibiotics first before we consider other treatments.


Oh, your poor little snake!  I'm not saying their advice doesn't make sense though- it does.  I just feel bad for your little angel- hopefully this too shall pass soon, with her return to full HEALTH.   :Please:

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aurum (11-30-2021)

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## aurum

> Oh, your poor little snake!  I'm not saying their advice doesn't make sense though- it does.  I just feel bad for your little angel- hopefully this too shall pass soon, with her return to full HEALTH.


Yes, I also feel bad for her, it's been quite a long run figuring this out. Hopefully now that we have more insight things will progress faster since we're treating for the right cause. In a way though, this whole ordeal with her has been helpful putting reptile, and specifically snake, ownership into perspective for me. My species wishlist is definitely still extensive lol, and I do want more snakes in the future, but my realistic expectations for just how many I can handle, resource and time-wise, has scaled back quite a bit.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),*Bogertophis* (11-30-2021)

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## Bogertophis

You didn't have such good luck with this one, in terms of "issues", but that's just it- we never know.  Most of the time, most snakes are healthy for a long time.  But we never know.

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_Albert Clark_ (02-02-2022),aurum (12-12-2021)

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## Albert Clark

Wow! What a saga. Congrats on your vigilance and persistence with the vet to get to the etiology of this kingsnake’s condition. Curious as to the updates on this case. Has the vet recommended bumping up the optimal temperature in the enclosure to give the reptile immune system a boost? Also can you describe your setup for the reptile? Temps, warm side and cool side and any humidity levels you have? Are you working with a thermostat?          :Smile:

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## Albert Clark

Also, consider more frequent water bowl changes because that will help eliminate a possible vector for contamination and illness to the reptile. Preferably daily but certainly every couple of days. Reptiles heal slowly. Partly due to being cold blooded and compromised immune systems.

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## Albert Clark

Here is one of Mr. Applegates bibles on the kingsnake and milksnake. Enjoy and keep us posted!          :Good Job:

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*Bogertophis* (02-02-2022)

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## aurum

Hello everyone, it's been a while due life just taking me away from this forum. Sorry for the (long) wait, but essentially the medication was successful and we're no longer having problems with her irritated scent glands and passing blood.

However, unfortunately, the thing that brings me back here is that she's started biting her own tail recently, not unlike the snake in this thread (https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...iting-himself)). There's no weird stool or strangulation, but it's very concerning and stressful all the same. I don't know how long she might have been doing this for, but I found out because I woke up to a thrashing sound and found her biting her tail and acting as if she'd just gotten a mouse. I had no idea what to do, so I tried spraying her with water (like a cat I guess) but that wasn't very effective. Eventually she let go, but a few minutes later she did it again! 

It looks kind of like a food response to me, she'll crawl over her tail, see it move, then get all excited and bite it, either tensing and thrashing afterwards or coiling and trying to constrict herself. Then after she lets go she is kind of quick and darty, very reactive to stimuli outside the tank, much like she acts when she knows there's a mouse coming. I don't know why there would be a sudden spike in food response out of no where though, I fed her two days ago, and generally she is on a schedule of one mouse the width of her body per week. I just have no idea what to when she does this, is there anything I can do to stop her? I tried picking her up too, and it didn't do much in terms of breaking the "food mode" behavior or uncoiling her. 

I don't think the problem is overheating since my heat mat has a thermostat and the bottom of her enclosure is currently 83° right now. Her secondary heat source, a halogen light on a dimmer turned down as low as it can, gets about 88° on the basking platform, so I don't think that's the problem either. It's possible it could be worms/parasites in her GI tract, but she's already gone through tests and dewormers, so I don't know if it's realistic that she would've gotten them between then and now. The other option is internal pain, possibly from impaction, which bogertophis mentioned in the other thread I linked, and this seems most plausible to me. She's on a sand/soil substrate but there are some smaller wood chips on the surface that sometimes stick to the mouse when she eats. I never really thought this was a problem since I've seen other keepers' snakes ingest similar amounts from what just sticks to the prey item, and they don't seem to have any issues, but if it turns out this is the issue it would make the most sense to me. 

The last thing I want to reiterate though is that, I know snakes don't exactly have clear pain responses, but her behavior seems most like she is looking for food. If I didn't know better, I would just think she was hungry and mistaking herself for food. The only weird thing is that it's happening over and over again, and she shouldn't have a reason to be this hungry. I hope this forum can help me out again, I just want her to be okay.

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*Bogertophis* (05-25-2022),_Homebody_ (05-25-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Have you been adding reptile probiotics to her food, after being on medication for infected scent glands?  I sure would.  It might be that she is feeling stomach irritation as "hunger" & let's face it, some king snakes are "eating machines" anyway- it doesn't take much for some of them to chase their tails (or their owners, lol).  

I'd also stop using those wood chips as substrate, just in case she's swallowing some.

Does she have a big enough water bowl to bathe in?  When she bites herself, what I'd do is quickly put her in the water bowl- it won't hurt anything but should "change the channel".  Water spray was too subtle for this king snake, obviously.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   She does sound like she has a hyper-active prey drive but I hope you can calm her down- I'd not want to see any snake of mine doing this either.

I've only had one snake* that ever bit their own tail- it was an elderly albino cal-king, & she only did it once.  She seemed a bit senile att, & she passed away about a year after that.  

*Another was a w/c turned over to me- sadly a brief acquaintance- a longnose snake that suddenly kept biting itself & then died quickly- apparently from parasites from their herp diet in the wild.

You've done everything possible for this snake, it's not fair that you've had so many crazy issues with one snake, & now this again?  What an ordeal.

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aurum (05-25-2022),_Homebody_ (05-25-2022)

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## aurum

She bit her tail again this morning and has spent the last six hours wrapped around one of the fake plants in her enclosure. She noses the ground and her coils like she's looking for whatever she thinks she caught, and just now she even decided to bite her actually body after nosing it for a little. She's never had a food drive anywhere close to this before, it feels like it came out of nowhere. 
(And now as I'm writing this post, she got so erratic and excited by the vibrations from the garage door opening, which is not a response she normally has)

The probiotics are a good call, I tried adding them to her water a while ago, but it didn't seem very effective so I stopped. I'll try putting them directly on her food. I am also planning to change her to paper towel and clean everything in there, just in case something smells like mouse. I'll email my vet as well, but I'm just not sure what they can really do about it besides another fecal and blood panel. 

It is a little disappointing to be dealing with another weird issue, especially one with no clear cause. Ultimately though, I just want to give her a good life. She really is such a nice snake and pet otherwise.

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*Bogertophis* (05-25-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> She bit her tail again this morning and has spent the last six hours wrapped around one of the fake plants in her enclosure. She noses the ground and her coils like she's looking for whatever she thinks she caught, and just now she even decided to bite her actually body after nosing it for a little. She's never had a food drive anywhere close to this before, it feels like it came out of nowhere. 
> (And now as I'm writing this post, she got so erratic and excited by the vibrations from the garage door opening, which is not a response she normally has)
> 
> The probiotics are a good call, I tried adding them to her water a while ago, but it didn't seem very effective so I stopped. I'll try putting them directly on her food. I am also planning to change her to paper towel and clean everything in there, just in case something smells like mouse. I'll email my vet as well, but I'm just not sure what they can really do about it besides another fecal and blood panel. 
> 
> It is a little disappointing to be dealing with another weird issue, especially one with no clear cause. Ultimately though, I just want to give her a good life. She really is such a nice snake and pet otherwise.


No, don't dilute probiotics in her water (it's too weak, unless you temporarily use a really small water bowl so it's more concentrated- & they'll spoil, so you'll have to replace daily), or apply to the rodent's fur (most falls off).  Before you feed, pry open the rodent's mouth & stuff in as much powder as you can, or if it will dilute in water, try injecting it into the rodent's body.  I don't recall what size prey she's eating- there's not much room in a mouse's mouth, especially if not full-grown.  (You could also liquify them just enough to tube-feed them into her, if you're comfortable doing that.  You could make it a "meal" by mixing in some Carnivore Care or Gerber's Chicken baby food.)

Good luck- you've been so diligent to get her healthy.  And her issues are quite unusual.

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aurum (05-25-2022),_Homebody_ (05-25-2022)

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## aurum

She's gotten a bit calmer over the last couple days, although she did try to give a small bite to her tail in the holding tub today while I was cleaning her tank. She's on paper towel now to keep her tail cleaner while it's wounded, and with less decor so she has less stuff to hit herself against if she starts thrashing again. I also sprayed some vetericyn on her tail and will continue to monitor her. I'm not sure what else I can do besides that. The vet emailed back, but all they said was that this can be caused by pain, which I already knew, and that they might need to see her in person to figure out what's going on.

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*Bogertophis* (05-27-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> She's gotten a bit calmer over the last couple days, although she did try to give a small bite to her tail in the holding tub today while I was cleaning her tank. She's on paper towel now to keep her tail cleaner while it's wounded, and with less decor so she has less stuff to hit herself against if she starts thrashing again. I also sprayed some vetericyn on her tail and will continue to monitor her. I'm not sure what else I can do besides that. The vet emailed back, but all they said was that this can be caused by pain, which I already knew, and that they might need to see her in person to figure out what's going on.


I'm so sorry to hear this is still going on.   :Sad:   Maybe she has some sort of neurological problem- like a phantom pain, maybe from a 'birth defect' or later injury that wasn't obvious & noticeable?   :Confused: 
Pain has always been the first thing that comes to my mind, but I wish it wasn't so hard to track down.  Poor little snake!

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## aurum

Good news, she hasn't displayed any weird/overly reactive behavior since my last post. She went into shed almost immediately (probably her body trying to heal herself) so all she did was hide, then after she shed I fed her so she spent a couple days hiding and digesting, and now it's been a couple days of her exploring as usual and she seems to be back to normal. Assuming the behavior doesn't come back, I'm willing to write this off as some bizarre fluke since I really can't think of what would have caused it.

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*Bogertophis* (06-08-2022),_dakski_ (06-08-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> Good news, she hasn't displayed any weird/overly reactive behavior since my last post. She went into shed almost immediately (probably her body trying to heal herself) so all she did was hide, then after she shed I fed her so she spent a couple days hiding and digesting, and now it's been a couple days of her exploring as usual and she seems to be back to normal. Assuming the behavior doesn't come back, I'm willing to write this off as some bizarre fluke since I really can't think of what would have caused it.


That's great to hear, I sure hope this is the "new normal".  Maybe she had some sort of neurological pain that has resolved- perhaps if she was a human, she'd be a hypochondriac, who knows?   :Very Happy:

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aurum (06-11-2022),_dakski_ (06-08-2022)

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## aurum

Well, out of nowhere she entered food mode overdrive again and just now bit her tail, except this time it was down her throat and she was trying to swallow it. It took spraying her in the face and dunking her head in the water bowl several times to get her to let go. I still have no idea what's wrong with her or what I can do about this, so taking her to the vet and getting some tests done is the only thing I can think of. 
The problem is that I am leaving on a pretty long trip in a couple of days, and even if I get an appointment through the emergency room, I don't know if that will be enough time to figure everything out. Also, one of my parents will be home while I'm gone to take care of her, but if she ends up needing injections again or something, I don't know if that's something they can take care of. Any advice for how to move forward? I'm feeling kind of stuck.

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*Bogertophis* (06-26-2022)

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## Bogertophis

I'm so sorry to hear this keeps happening with her.  Many king snakes (including MBKs) have crazy-strong food drives- I'm wondering if she's just "wired a bit wrong", due to perhaps some genetic quirk- possibly some inbreeding, as some breeders do, either intentionally for optimal appearance, or without realizing it, what with all the captive-breeding done these days.  I'm starting to doubt  there's any solution from your vet at this point- you've ruled many things out.  

When dogs chew on things they aren't supposed to, some use products that taste bad to make them stop- I'm trying to think of something you could apply SAFELY to her tail to make it really  unappealing (taste bad)- otherwise, one of these days, she just may go too far at self-harming?  King snakes do eat other snakes, & apparently her food drive is winning out over common sense or any perception of pain?   :Rolleyes2: 

Have you tried bathing her after she eats?  Not immediately after, but maybe a day or so- to make sure all rodent scent (left from constricting prey) is gone from her body & her enclosure?  Maybe clean her enclosure totally after each meal too?

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_Homebody_ (06-27-2022)

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## aurum

Yeah, it sure lines up with her being a kingsnake, but she actually had a really calm food drive before this--basically nonexistent unless there was a mouse around. I feel like if this was because of genetic hardwiring it would have shown up earlier. Although for what it's worth she does have one "split" belly scale which is supposedly a sign of inbreeding. 

Making her tail taste bad is a good idea. I am really concerned about her taking this too far after seeing her swallow her tail. All the sources I've read say that a snake truly trying to eat itself will probably die. It's hard thinking of what could go on there though, it needs to stick, preferably not rub off, and also not irritate the existing wounds. 

I also thought that maybe she was smelling mouse somewhere and that's what was keeping her in food mode, but she ate 8 days ago and was acting normal up until now, when any mouse smell should theoretically be weakest, especially since I'm cleaning her enclosure throughout the week whenever she poops. I fed her today as well right after she bit herself and she's acting the same before and after she ate. Baths and more thorough cleaning are definitely worth a try though, they certainly can't hurt. Just not sure how it's going to go with me not at home since my parents basically never deal with the snake.

As for the vet, I also have no idea what they can do or find in a phys exam that will be new, but part of me is wondering if maybe somehow in the past couple months she contracted some kind of parasite and ordering yet another fecal could be worth it.

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## Bogertophis

It's up to you if you want another fecal done.  I really don't know what to tell you at this point- & if I get any great ideas for a non-toxic substance that would taste bad on her tail, I'll let you know- I'm sure there must be something that would be a turn-off?  Do you grow tomatoes, by any chance?  I do, & when I touch the leaves or stems, I get the strong scent of green tomato plants on my skin- something like that might work?  I don't think it would be harmful, or wash off easily, & hopefully might be a deterrent.  All you can do is try- good luck! 

As far as her having a calm food drive before this- maybe that's because she's been fed rodents & she truly prefers snake, or at least something other than what she's been eating?   :Surprised:    But if that was the case, even if you fed her "feeder snakes" it probably wouldn't stop her "tail fixation".   :Confused:   Goofy snake.  I've had a couple of MBKs in the past, never had this problem with them- but that was a long time ago- & since then, they've been breeding them for a more perfect jet black appearance (mine were not so perfect)- so perhaps they've also retained traits that would not have survived in the wild.  That's the problem with breeding so many for the pet trade- we help them along, breeders are chosen for appearance, & none are weeded out as they are in the wild.  If you bought yours from a breeder, have you tried talking with them?

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_Homebody_ (06-27-2022)

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## Bogertophis

Actually, just to clarify- it's not so much that something you apply to her tail has to "taste bad" but just so long as it distracts her & keeps her from thinking "can I eat this?"   :Wink:   Green tomato leaves/stems are fairly pungent & as far as I can tell, smell nothing like anything a king snake would eat.  There may be other substances too, anyone have any other ideas?

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aurum (07-28-2022)

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## aurum

I just got back from my trip, and from what my parents have observed she's been acting normal, although today I already saw her try to bite herself a couple times while I was cleaning her tank. No latching on like before, but it seems like this behavior might not be something that just goes away. I also did end up making an appointment with the vet. Even if they don't have any answers, I want them to check on the scent glands she was having a problem with before because I'm wondering if they might've gotten inflamed again and that's what's hurting her?

Bogertophis, the green tomato plants sound like a great idea, but unfortunately we don't grow any vegetables ourselves. Hopefully the veterycin can work somewhat as a deterrent. Having a breeder to talk to would probably help as well, but I bought her from an expo and didn't end up getting the seller's contact info, so I'm out of luck there. Something to learn from if I ever buy from expos again. 
(Also I don't know if you were under the impression that she is an MBK, but she is a speckled kingsnake  :Wink: )

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*Bogertophis* (07-28-2022)

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## Bogertophis

> I just got back from my trip, and from what my parents have observed she's been acting normal, although today I already saw her try to bite herself a couple times while I was cleaning her tank. No latching on like before, but it seems like this behavior might not be something that just goes away. I also did end up making an appointment with the vet. Even if they don't have any answers, I want them to check on the scent glands she was having a problem with before because I'm wondering if they might've gotten inflamed again and that's what's hurting her?
> 
> Bogertophis, the green tomato plants sound like a great idea, but unfortunately we don't grow any vegetables ourselves. Hopefully the veterycin can work somewhat as a deterrent. Having a breeder to talk to would probably help as well, but I bought her from an expo and didn't end up getting the seller's contact info, so I'm out of luck there. Something to learn from if I ever buy from expos again. 
> (Also I don't know if you were under the impression that she is an MBK, but she is a speckled kingsnake )


Oh sorry, I was under the impression that she's an MBK- maybe I confused with another thread, but it doesn't matter in terms of care & advice, not one bit.  Ask your vet what you might safely use topically that would be a taste "turn-off".
Or post a free ad, or ask around, or go to a farmer's market- for someone who grows tomatoes to share a piece of stem they don't need- hey, if you were closer...

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aurum (08-01-2022)

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