# Feeders > Breeding Rats >  Pine Bedding Bad for Rats?

## Bellabob

I was reading up on rats (just got 3, 1 male 2 females) and the website I want to said: NEVER USE CEDAR OR PINE SHAVINGS AS THEY WILL CAUSE RESPITORY INFECTIONS AND WILL MAKE YOUR RAT(S) SICK. This was a pet rat website just btw, not a feeder rat website. All the feeder rat breeding instructions says you can use pine bedding, hell, the zoo I work for uses pine bedding in their rat house. So whats so bad about it? I'm asking this cause I'm keeping my rats on pine right now. I have a massive bag of it and I don't want to waste it.

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## jason79

I have been breeding rats on pine for many years and never had a problem. You do have to be careful not to get the pine with a lot of dust in it but I have never had a problem with using pine for rats.

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## snakesRkewl

I use Cozy Den pine shavings and have zero issues with sneezing or any kind of illness.
Kiln dried pine is perfectly safe with rats.

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## Rhasputin

Kiln dried dust free is supposedly safe. But don't medicate your rats if they're on pine. That can cause death due to changes in enzymes in the liver. I assume you're a feeder breeder, so that probably won't apply to you.

Being kiln dried is -very- important. Otherwise, you will end up with un-happy, and sick rats. 

Here's a long discussion we've recently been having on another board about whether or not it's safe to use pine shavings: http://mouselovers.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2348

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## Stewart_Reptiles

I have been using pine pellets (equine pine) and pine shaving (TSC brand) for years and never had any issues.

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## Krynn

Just curious, how much money do you save by using pine over an alternative such as carefresh or aspen or whatnot. Pine has been shown to cause RI in rodents (and other animals) due to the release of aromatic carbon compounds (phenols and such). 

Sure kiln dried pine may reduce the amount of phenols released by the bedding, so pine CAN be used without the occurance of RIs but why risk it?

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## wilomn

> Just curious, how much money do you save by using pine over an alternative such as carefresh or aspen or whatnot. Pine has been shown to cause RI in rodents (and other animals) due to the release of aromatic carbon compounds (phenols and such).


What source are you using to verify? Please provide it.

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ballpythonluvr (03-29-2011),_Powerspythons_ (03-29-2011)

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## jasbus

> What source are you using to verify? Please provide it.


I second that... Show the evidence, not internet "heresay"...
I've been breeding on pine since the mid 80's.  Both on personal and commercial levels.  I own a pet store, it's all I use, and I recommend it to my customers.  Of course, I don't turn down the sale if someone wants to buy Carefresh or the other more expensive stuff....  But, if they ask, I tell/sell them pine...

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## stratus_020202

It seems there is a lot of scientific proof that cedar is bad, and then it just goes on saying that pine is similar. Hmmm. There is actually a website that's called www.pineisfine.com. If you trust that as a source. It quotes the AVMA, so why not.

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## Rhasputin

There are scientific studies, and it's a fact that the phenols in pine can be respinsible for RIs, and enzyme changes in the livers of small animals.
This is why it is not used in laboratory settings.

HOWEVER. All studies were done on un-treated pine, and not treated pine. Supposedly the treated stuff is just as harmless as Aspen. 

Here is some information on the subject: http://buckysbunnies.tripod.com/Pine.html/

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## PghBall

I've been breeding my own feeders for the past 2+ years and have not had any issues with kiln dried pine shavings.

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## Krynn

> What source are you using to verify? Please provide it.


I will admit, i have never really looked at the references from people telling me that pine and cedar were bad. After you challenged my sources i decided that i would take a look at the scientific literature and see what i could find. One study by Ayars et al., 1989. (The toxicity of constituents of cedar and pine woods to pulmonary epithelium), shows that compounds in these woods have the ability to heavily damage tracheal and lung epithelial tissues. That being said, I could see how kiln dried pine and cedar may reduce that amounts of these compounds, as their boiling points are in the range of 200-300 degrees Celsius. This study was directed towards the issue of RIs developing in PEOPLE IN WOOD MILLS. 

Another study conducted by Buddaraju and Van :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:, 2003 showed that pine bedding causes an alteration of liver enzyme levels in rats, and this will have implications on drug metabolism and endocytosis (may have an implication on immune function?). 

I actually also found one study saying that pine, cedar, and carefresh all had no negative effects on mice.. maybe kiln dried pine isnt so bad after all

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## Rhasputin

> I've been breeding my own feeders for the past 2+ years and have not had any issues with kiln dried pine shavings.



Not disagreeing about kiln dried pine here. . . BUT. . . 

i am curious how long mice actually stay in your possession, alive?

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## stratus_020202

> Not disagreeing about kiln dried pine here. . . BUT. . . 
> 
> i am curious how long mice actually stay in your possession, alive?


Out of all the answers to this thread, why is this the one you question?

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## OhhWatALoser

here the proof with references

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html




> In mice these enzymes started rising after only 24 hours exposure to cedar shavings and only returned to normal when the mice were away from the shavings for 12 days (8). If pine or cedar shavings are heat-treated or soaked in a solvent, so that some of the phenols are removed, the effects are not as great, but still occur (8, 9).





> A study done in 1991 (1) found that mice kept on pine shavings for only a month had a more highly reactive immune response. Mice kept on pine shavings for 8 months developed abnormally enlarged livers. This same study found that mice housed on pine shavings also had a decrease in reproduction rate. When given free choice of beddings, rats and mice reject pine and cedar shavings in favor of any other type of beddings.

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## jasbus

I sell all of the other beddings.... Come on out and buy some from me! :Very Happy: 
Me, I'll be using pine until I decide to stop breeding.  Been using it for 20+ years with no ill effects.  Almost all the "evidence" shown in these studies are from cedar use.  When they do mention pine, it's always "slightly higher" or "increased" this or that.  And, they are almost all written by xxx, the rat lady.  Or, cousin xxx, mousier.  Me, I raise rodent for food.  They're tasty!
So, if in fact, we are all wrong about using pine...... and the mice or rats are growing larger livers.... who wins?  Well, the snakes... :Good Job:  more protein!

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## wilomn

here the proof with references

http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html

In mice these enzymes started rising after only 24 hours exposure to cedar shavings and only returned to normal when the mice were away from the shavings for 12 days (8). If pine or cedar shavings are heat-treated or soaked in a solvent, so that some of the phenols are removed, the effects are not as great, but still occur (8, 9).
A study done in 1991 (1) found that mice kept on pine shavings for only a month had a more highly reactive immune response. Mice kept on pine shavings for 8 months developed abnormally enlarged livers. This same study found that mice housed on pine shavings also had a decrease in reproduction rate. When given free choice of beddings, rats and mice reject pine and cedar shavings in favor of any other type of beddings.

Do you suppose those studies may be skewed to favor the outcome a pet rat keeper would like?

Here's a study for you. I've been doing this, on and off but never completely stopped, for over 40 years. I've been keeping snakes on pine for the same amount of time and breeding them on pine for almost 25. Multiple generations of fat healthy rats and mice and snakes.

The reputation of my animals is excellent. My rodents are top notch as well. 

So, my personal decades long experience has lead me to believe, because I have seen it with my own eyes, that while pine that is fresh cut or not dry is not so good, kiln dried is just fine.

I don't have an agenda. I don't need you to use pine. I'm not an advocate for pine usage.

Now, if you can find a truly neutral source that proves kiln dried pine is bad, I'll rethink my decades of experience. So far, I've not seen a single study that's both reputable and non-biased.

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## OhhWatALoser

> Do you suppose those studies may be skewed to favor the outcome a pet rat keeper would like?


if all these people are lying then i guess so...

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## jasbus

Hold on a minute...

I'll quick make a website and put all kinds of references on it, then post it.

I think I'll take my own chances, and like wilomn said, my decades of experience.
To each their own.  Like I said before, pet stores sell the expensive stuff too....it's your choice.

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## Krynn

> Hold on a minute...
> 
> I'll quick make a website and put all kinds of references on it, then post it.
> 
> I think I'll take my own chances, and like wilomn said, my decades of experience.
> To each their own.  Like I said before, pet stores sell the expensive stuff too....it's your choice.


Im going to assume that you didnt look at the references at all. All of the references that I, and one or two other people have posted are from scientific journals. This means that they are peer reviewed primary sources.




> Now, if you can find a truly neutral source that proves kiln dried pine is bad, I'll rethink my decades of experience. So far, I've not seen a single study that's both reputable and non-biased.


Now i want to clearly emphasize here that i am not just trying to argue for the sake of arguing, im just curious as to what you guys consider a reputable source?

The thought of a non biased source is an interesting concept here though, because it is quite valuable to consider why certain studies are done, and what the motive is.

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## tomfromtheshade

I have a few thousand rats on pine right now. They're doing a lot better than the ones in the freezer LOL. Personally, if they breed well, and live at least 64 weeks, I don't care what happens to their liver. I use kiln dried pine and I have only lost one adult rat in the last as long as I can remember and she died in child birth. I did find a rat pup dead the other day with a bunch of shavings in his mouth, but I'm betting that he was just retarded and tried to eat a bunch of bedding. It happens sometimes.

For the record, I have had ZERO problems with pine shavings. I use kiln dried pine shavings and they are cheap, plentiful, and have worked for me 100% of the time.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> Pine has been shown to cause RI in rodents (and other animals) due to the release of aromatic carbon compounds (phenols and such). 
> 
> Sure kiln dried pine may reduce the amount of phenols released by the bedding, so pine CAN be used without the occurance of RIs but why risk it?


From MY experience I have NEVER had any rats or mice with RI.

How long do I keep my animals (since apparently some people think it is relevant) well it depends

Female mice are retired after 5 litters, males are retired and replaced every 6 months.

Female rats are retired when the production drops below 5 babies, males are retired and replaced every 8 months.

Retirement has nothing to do with health issue it has to do with production because I am breeding for food those are not pets so once they no longer produce they are retired.

So again from *MY* experience never had any issue with either pine pellets or shaving but than again I only produce a few thousands rats a year which is not very much, if I did have issue I would consider alternative bedding but I don't have any issue and my colony is VERY healthy.

Now my question is how many rats have you raised on pine shaving and out of those how many have you had develop RI, and are you positive every single time it was due to the bedding.

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## snakesRkewl

I've yet to have a rat get sick on pine and I certainly would not place my pet rat stock on kiln dried pine if I thought it would harm them.

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## PghBall

> Not disagreeing about kiln dried pine here. . . BUT. . . 
> 
> i am curious how long mice actually stay in your possession, alive?


My oldest male breeder (purchased him back in the fall of 08 along with his brother) just passed about 2 weeks ago (old age).  And I still have one of my original females I started my colony with.  Both spent their entire lives on kiln dried pine.  Both are/were well over 2 years old.  But to answer your question, mice do not stay in my possession long dead or alive, unless you count the days the field mice sit in my garbage can after the trap snaps their necks.  I only feed rats  :Wink:

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## Bellabob

Ok so the stuff I have is Premier Pet kiln dried softwood pine bedding. This is ok no?

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## jasbus

> Ok so the stuff I have is Premier Pet kiln dried softwood pine bedding. This is ok no?


In my own personal experience....yes.

No references needed, just 20+ years of experience...

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## Rhasputin

> My oldest male breeder (purchased him back in the fall of 08 along with his brother) just passed about 2 weeks ago (old age).  And I still have one of my original females I started my colony with.  Both spent their entire lives on kiln dried pine.  Both are/were well over 2 years old.  But to answer your question, mice do not stay in my possession long dead or alive, unless you count the days the field mice sit in my garbage can after the trap snaps their necks.  I only feed rats


Okay. My only point being, I wish there was some comprehensive evidence on long term kiln dried dust free pine use and rodents. And there really isn't  :Sad: 

I know people use the pellets, and consider that to be 100% safe, so I can only imagine that if the pellets are safe (being dried, baked, and dust free) then the treated shavings (dried, baked, dust free) would also be safe. . . 

I feel like the negatives are not strong enough to rule out pine at the moment, for me. I'm about to run out of aspen, and if the feed store doesn't get the shipment of specialty aspen I'm hoping they will, then I'm going to get the kiln dried dust free horse pine, and see if there are any changes in my mousery. As of now, it has been MONTHS since my last URI in any of the rodents, and it was caused by cedar I sprinkled in to kill off mites. 

So starting fresh, I hope to try pine, and see if I notice any differences in the way my mice live, and die.

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## reptilegirl07

Honestly, I think the experience of all the people here outweigh the supposed "scientific studies".  We have people here who have kept rats and mice on pine for decades.  These studies were probably conducted over the course of weeks, if that long. 

I have always used pine. I have never had an issue with it.  

I think there is plenty of sufficient research done to say that kiln dried pine is safe.  The fact that people keep rodents on this bedding for decades and the fact that people can keep their rodents on it until they die of old age is sufficient. Rats don't live very long, what, around 2-3 years.  Thus, if the rodents can live in pine for 2-3 years without issues, pine is safe. 

I'm sure, on this forum, there is more combined knowledge on the subject than actual "scientific" studies.

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snakesRkewl (03-30-2011)

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## Rhasputin

Reptilegirl whereas i agree with some of your points, your dismissal of scientific evidence is disturbing.


Untreated pine does have harmful side effects, and that was what the tests were based on. The evidence supporting pine, is all for treated pine, not un-treated. 
Un-treated pine does in fact cause health issues in small mammals (comparable [since it's the same thing in a lower dose] to the effects of cedar on small mammals), which is why it is not used in laboratories (mainly the enzyme changes in the liver, which can effect the way an animal metabolizes medications, and reacts to testing).

 :Razz:

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PsychD_Student (03-31-2013)

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## Rhasputin

> In my own personal experience....yes.
> 
> No references needed, just 20+ years of experience...


If the hypotheses about kiln dried pine being safe are true (I see very little, if any reason to avoid kiln dried dust free pine), then yes.

Please do keep an eye on your animals, and report back on how they are doing. The more information we can get from 'tests' the better we can understand this bedding feud!   :Very Happy:

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## Krynn

After reading more of the studies that have directly addressed the toxicity of pine I am actually leaning more towards the side that "Pine is perfectly fine to use for rodents". Ill give my reasons in a tick.

I did want to say that it is driving me nuts to see the reasons why people are completely discarding these studies. You guys are claiming that these studies are not reputable, yet quite a number of them are coming from peer reviewed journals. I personally cannot think of a more "reputable" source then this so i am still curious as to what you guys consider reputable.

Reptilegirl07: no these studies are not conducted over the course of "weeks, if that long" or they would be ripped apart in the peer evaluation process. If you read the studies you will find they tend to average between 4 and 8 months. Even if you guys are completely on the opposite side of this argument, take the time to read these studies before you discard them.

Is there a bias to these studies? Yes, but likely not in the way you are thinking. These scientists arnt working for Carefresh trying to make you stop using pine for your pets, like some people seem to be insinuating. These guys are SCIENTISTS giving information to other SCIENTISTS doing research on pine beddings. Keep in mind that hundreds of thousands of rodents are being used each year for scientific studies. If you are doing any sort of pharmacological, or physiological testing on rodents, and their enzymes are changing in response to their bedding, this is no longer a controlled study! This is why these studies are done, and this is the context that they are done. 

Also keep in mind that there seems to be a bit of debate in the scientific community as well on the subject, as here is a paper claiming that there are no differences in overall health between mice house on carefresh, pine, or even cedar!:
Becker C.E., Mathur C.F., Rehnberg B.G.2010.The Effects of Chronic Exposure to Common Bedding Materials on the Metabolic Rate and Overall Health of Male CD-1 Mice. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science. 13:46-55.

So like i said, i am starting to lean towards the "Pine is ok" side now. One thing that i would keep in mind however, is that if you medicate your rats, take them off the pine for a while first!

Side note (rant):

Claiming that something is alright because "we have been doing it for years with no problem" isnt great evidence either (although it may be good enough reason for you to continue doing something yourself). In educational teaching labs 25-40 years ago we used alot of carcinogenic compounds without gloves, or fume hoods with no "ill effects". Years later it was determined that alot of these compound have a very high cancer risk associated with them. I know this example doesnt really relate to this example, but i think it illustrates the point. Not all ill effects are visual.

Hope i didnt piss to many of you off with my ranting, but i felt it needed to be done  :Razz: .

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PsychD_Student (03-31-2013),_Rhasputin_ (03-31-2011),starstrukk (03-31-2011)

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## jasbus

Dude, we're talking about rats here.
for snake food.

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## Krynn

Thanks for the clarification.

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## Rhasputin

Krynn, I think your post is the most clearly and logically thought out that I've heard. Thank you for sharing your view.  :Smile: 

Jasbus, even though it's snake food, it's still a living animal, and it's health should be a concern no matter what you're doing with it.

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_stratus_020202_ (03-31-2011)

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## jasbus

Well, you make it sound like people that use pine don't care about their animals...
Geez, the original question was:
Is it alright to use pine?

In my opinion, yes, I've never lost a rat due to a RI using pine.  Much less ever had a rat with a RI...
If you guys want to take this to a weird level of cancer and what happens over a period of time to a liver given a certain study in some lab half way across the world, then so be it.
If you want the opinion of a breeder/pet lover/pet store owner, then I just gave it.  To tell me that I don't care for my animals is just childish.  Even though they are being used as food, they get a quality life on some of the best diet, in clean cages.  In a building that probably costs more than your entire collection, that's just the building....  Exhaust fans, heaters, A/C, complete climate control, including humidity.  All of this for animals that according to the USDA don't even fall under the animal cruelty act.  Ask my USDA inspector what he thinks of my setup...He doesn't even need to look at them, because they are not considered a "pet" animal according to them, but he's always checking out my setups for all my animals because he knows that I do it right.
I use CO2 to euthanize, not a stick and a broken neck.
I keep my animals in the best of conditions, I just spent $100 on a friggin breeder male rat at the vet.  Guess what, I could of easily fed him off, but he will spend the rest of his life as my kid's pet.
So, in short, get off your high horse, and stop with the footnotes and independent studies...  There are plenty of people who raise breeders on pine, like myself, for decades and never had a problem with it.  
SO, YES, PINE IS FINE.

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snakesRkewl (04-01-2011)

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## Rhasputin

Jasbus this quote from you, "Dude, we're talking about rats here. for snake food." made it seem like you didn't care about the facts.


Nobody's on a high horse, especially not me. I just bought some pine. . .

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## jasbus

Well I apologize for the rant, but it just gets so old when people assume things. 
Yes, we breed them for food. But it doesn't mean they should be tortured. 
The whole point is/was, is it ok to use pine. Probably 99% of the breeders out there use pine, with no ill effects at all. 
It just gets irritating when people use one thing to twist another.

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_Rhasputin_ (04-04-2011)

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## jasbus

You know what the ironic thing is, in my case?  
I just saved the life of a old geezer male breeder that my kids love(ok and me too) by spending tons of money and time on him, and I don't think twice about putting 50 rats in a death chamber. Sometimes you do need to remember that they are living beings....
How messed up is that?

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## SlitherinSisters

I've also been using it for years without issue.

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## twh

just for the record there is no such thing as "dust free" kiln dried pine or any other type of bedding commonly used for small animals.like saying ASFR's are "odor free" just not so.

in the past i have called numerous producers of pine bedding and they all have told me kiln drying reduces moisture content in the bedding to 4%-8%,so any phenols would have to be in that small %,bottom line is that there is no reason to use much more expensive bedding.low dust kiln dried pine is a good product for rodent bedding.cedar on the other hand is to be avoided at all cost.have fun.

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_Rhasputin_ (04-04-2011)

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## snakesRkewl

> just for the record there is no such thing as "dust free" kiln dried pine or any other type of bedding commonly used for small animals.like saying ASFR's are "odor free" just not so.
> 
> in the past i have called numerous producers of pine bedding and they all have told me kiln drying reduces moisture content in the bedding to 4%-8%,so any phenols would have to be in that small %,bottom line is that there is no reason to use much more expensive bedding.low dust kiln dried pine is a good product for rodent bedding.cedar on the other hand is to be avoided at all cost.have fun.


As with aspen some have more dust than others, I have found cozy den pine shavings to be the best I've found anywhere.
I open the bag when I get it home to allow a little extra dry time.
ASF's smell free  :ROFL:  that's a big misnomer, let them go ten days in a tank and stick your nose anywhere close to that tank and tell me they are "odor free". NOT

They "might" smell less than mice but I doubt it.

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## Rhasputin

We came up with a pretty interesting solution to getting the dust out of bedding, on a mouse forum. 

Take a big plastic bin, and like with bin cages, cut out a pannel on the bottom, and maybe the sides, and replace the pannels with very fine mesh window screening. Then dump in your bedding and go out side and shake shake shake!


. . . Honestly, the bedding I buy has almost all of the dust at the bottom of the bag, and it's really not worth going through that trouble. But it's useful info if you need it!  :Good Job:

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snakesRkewl (04-05-2011)

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## Amaya K

I know this is a very old thread, but i felt like adding: 
The reason that all of these scientific studies have gone on about the respiratory problems pine causes is because the rats are inhaling PINE DUST. Pine DUST is bad for inhaling. 



Pine itself actually holds moisture different than say, aspen. It creates a different moisture content in the cage.

Now I volunteer at a rat rescue, dedicated to the long lives of PET rats. The lady who ran it heard from a breeder that pine was actually better than other options. So what does she do? She tries it. We had an old, sick rat named Eddie who had PRE EXISTING respiratory problems. He didn't have more than a few weeks before kicking it. We switched his bedding to pine and he actually got better. You could hear the difference in his breathing. He ended up living months longer than we ever imagined he would. 

So I don't know about their livers, and I personally don't usually give much credit to studies that are older than 20 years; let's not forget all of the food studies they used to do about healthy or unhealthy foods that are the opposite five years later. And I have yet to find a pine study reference earlier than 1990. 


I am still wary of using pine with my snakes, but honestly, I really think my rats love it and it has been good for them.

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