# Site General > General Herp > Herp Broadcast >  Virginia Beach, VA - Woman killed by pet python

## elevatethis

They reference a "tiger python" in the article...my guess it was a Tiger Retic ?  Who knows, but to all the Giant Keepers out there...use a spotter or at least have a buddy around in case your snake decides to have its way with you....

http://www.nbc12.com/Global/story.asp?S=9228953

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## ohyeahnow

Great, and while the feds are trying ban pythons and boas. Hey Brad thanks for the post. I am also in Richmond.

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## snakecharmer3638

Sad situation for all involved. We all need to remember to be responsible snake keepers.

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## SoCaliSon

What a bummer.  I wonder if she was a member here.  With a big Tiger Ret I would not be suprised.  Tragic.

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## Freakie_frog

Responsible giant keepers know that once they get to be a certain size to have a second person their just in case stuff like that happens.

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## evil mechanic

i believe this is her http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...iendid=1444838

anyone know her? thats so sad.

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## monk90222

SO....there is a dead body, a loose snake.....and the husband found her there?....Sounds fishy my friends........lets not be so quick to blame the snake.....just sayin....

and if that is her myspace page, it was logged into today....

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_catawhat75_ (10-23-2008),_RoyalGuardian_ (10-24-2008)

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## evil mechanic

hmm it would be a good cover up wouldnt it...

he prolly logged in to reply to all the people asking if it was her!

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## xanaxez

even at 13 ft i dont really see the snake wrapping and killing her. ive had alot of friends with larger retics and burms then that and have really ticked them off but  they would just bite and run or clicmb back into the enclosures.  this could have happened but i think something fishy is up with this story. i think the husband is in the middle of it somewheres and blaming the poor snake.and most people know or should know regardless of how sweet or docile a pet of that size is  you never attempt messing with it alone. always have someone atleast in the next room that you could shout for if something for the worse  started to occur.

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## Bruce Whitehead

> even at 13 ft i dont really see the snake wrapping and killing her. ive had alot of friends with larger retics and burms then that and have really ticked them off but  they would just bite and run or clicmb back into the enclosures.  this could have happened but i think something fishy is up with this story. i think the husband is in the middle of it somewheres and blaming the poor snake.and most people know or should know regardless of how sweet or docile a pet of that size is  you never attempt messing with it alone. always have someone atleast in the next room that you could shout for if something for the worse  started to occur.


I guess we can hope that the family, friends, and spouse of this individual are not members, and are not sitting here reading this post... seriously not cool to speculate like this about a situation you know nothing about.

Perhaps a bit of sensitivity might be in order?

Bruce

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## waltah!

I was getting ready to say something similar. We just read a very short summary of the story and within just a few posts people are saying they think it's fishy and the husband is involved. That is just ridiculous. Let's show some respect for her family and friends who very well could be members here.

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## monk90222

> I was getting ready to say something similar. We just read a very short summary of the story and within just a few posts people are saying they think it's fishy and the husband is involved. That is just ridiculous. Let's show some respect for her family and friends who very well could be members here.



We're all entitled to our own opinions. I have mine, you have yours. Seeing that this is a public forum, we all have to right to post them here.

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_filly77_ (10-24-2008),_Gecko Den_ (10-24-2008),_mooingtricycle_ (10-25-2008)

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## bait4snake

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/play...50045&src=news

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## waltah!

Opinions are much different than speculations. It's a one paragraph story and people are jumping to CSI like conclusions. That's all i'm sayin. If that were your wife, sister or daughter you may feel a bit differently about it.

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kratos (10-25-2008)

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## monk90222

> Opinions are much different than speculations. It's a one paragraph story and people are jumping to CSI like conclusions. That's all i'm sayin. If that were your wife, sister or daughter you may feel a bit differently about it.


Were you there? If so, can you tell us what happened, to end all speculation?

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## waltah!

I don't believe any of us were there, Charlie. All I was saying is that some sensitivity may have been in order there. Not sure what crawled up your hole, but I assure you it was not me. Guess everything I said falls under the whole "we all have the right to post our opinions" thing you mentioned. Not sure why you are giving me crap about it though.

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_Bruce Whitehead_ (10-23-2008),_hoax_ (11-28-2008),reptile_jones (10-24-2008)

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## monk90222

> I don't believe any of us were there, Charlie. All I was saying is that some sensitivity may have been in order there. Not sure what crawled up your hole, but I assure you it was not me. Guess everything I said falls under the whole "we all have the right to post our opinions" thing you mentioned. Not sure why you are giving me crap about it though.


Pretty much, Walter,  the same reason you gave us crap about not "being sensitive"!

Isn't the 1st amendment great!  :Salute:

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## Rapture

Not trying to be insensitive here but really how many keepers have to die while medicating their large Retics before they realize it's not a good idea to do something like that alone?

So tragic and untimely, and sad...

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_Bruce Whitehead_ (10-23-2008),karbogast (10-28-2008),_Spaniard_ (10-24-2008),_Thor26_ (10-24-2008)

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## waltah!

I'm not arguing with you here, dude.

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## Adam_Wysocki

I like fried chicken!!!  :Rolleyes2: 

-adam

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## Bruce Whitehead

> Not trying to be insensitive here but really how many keepers have to die while medicating their large Retics before they realize it's not a good idea to do something like that alone?
> 
> So tragic and untimely, and sad...


These are always horrible to hear about.  :Sad: 

There are long lasting and serious ramifications on so many levels... to the person, the family, the hobby, legislators, the animal in question. Especially when it is a preventable situation.

Bruce

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## blackcrystal22

Though this could have been prevented, it was not.
And it happened, therefore the situation has become tragic. Though this situation doesn't sound 100% alright, it is possible.

I add my huge condolences to the family of this woman, as well as the friends and people who cared about her. Everyone makes mistakes, and hers didn't end up well. 
I guess I almost put myself in this situation, if one of my snakes that large killed me in the future, how my family would feel. It's a very painful thought.

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_reptile3_ (10-24-2008)

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## marmie

Sometimes animal lovers forget that their pets are animals and think they know their temperaments.  Unfortunately this had a horrible tragic ending.  

I've been to reptile shows where this guy displays a huge "tame" alligator and  he offered to take pictures if a child wanted to sit on it's back.  I'm sure a lot of you know the guy I'm talking about.  I personally would never put my child or grandchild on the back of that alligator because in the back of my mind I'm thinking "all that alligator needs is to have one bad day and the situation could turn very ugly".  Luckily it never happened and since I've hear the alligator unfortunately passed away.

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## bsd13

Very tragic. 

To those who were speculating (past tense because I assume you've come to realize based on what the experts have said you were wrong) it was the husband I'm curious what in the article even made you think that was possible?

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## Morphie

> I've been to reptile shows where this guy displays a huge "tame" alligator and  he offered to take pictures if a child wanted to sit on it's back.


ok at that point you're just asking for it  :Rage:

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## nchapa

Very sad for the poor lady and her family  :Sad: .

But it doesnt take CSI to think the husband had something to do with it.  In most cases husbands do have everything to do with it, and why would this be any different.  

We all know that police usually dont reveal to the media, what they dont want you to know, or what they dont want the real suspect to know what the police really knows.  So knowing that, if they even suspect the husband it could take a very long time to gather the evidence, and file charges, and even if the husband is a suspect, without sufficient evidence they will never charge him, and we go on living thinking that the snake killed the lady, but only the husband, the snake, and GOD knows what really happened.  

my .02

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## Peter Williams

"Reticulated Tiger Python", I'm really curious how the media managed to get ahold of the morph of the animal and misconstrue it to be the actual name of the species. I'm sure they interviewed the husband about what kind it was, but I can't imagine him saying anything but just "reticulated python". 

I think if a keeper must handle a large snake such as a retic alone, it's probably best to have a very large hunting knife within reach. Even if it's your prized tiger retic, in a situation like that, it's you or the snake.

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## reptile3

Sad for her husband & family...

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## Thor26

man that really sucks = [ 
i watch to much TV so of course all kinds of scenarios run through my mind and anything is possible. I have heard from "people" that 90% percent of the people who die from attacks from large constrictors are killed because they don't want to hurt the snake. al i have to say is if i'm wrapped.....it's on like donkey kong

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## bityrock24

I knew her, and for all of the other that have even suggested it, No her husband had nothing to do with it, he had told her to wait to do any thing with it until he got home.  They have determind that it was the snake and not him.  Not to mention he was at work the whole time, the snake was named Diablo, it was named that for a reason.  He has gone and gotten rid of all of the snakes they had because of this, and has given Animal control the green light to have the snake put down because of this.  It was 10 foot tiger retic, they had 5 retic's all together for a total of 8 snakes.  She worked at one of the local pet stores here in the Reptile department, she knew her stuff.  They are saying that she was trying to Med the snake but we do not know that for sure.  Just the same she is gone and it is tragic, we have lost 2herp lovers, her and her husband.

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ANCPYTHONS (10-24-2008),_anendeloflorien_ (10-24-2008),_Bruce Whitehead_ (10-24-2008),_hoax_ (11-28-2008),kratos (10-25-2008),Muze (10-27-2008)

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## AaronP

People that are THIS stupid are going to ruin it for everyone!

http://www.wavy.com/global/story.asp...srvc=leadstory

Cliff Notes:
Stupid person tries to give medication to a 'supposed' 10' tiger retic by herself, and she was found dead by her husband with a crush neck. Who wants to bet the moron put the snake around her neck to give the meds?  :Mad:

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## AaronP

What a moron...there is a reason why people say you NEED someone else around when you do any major handling of these size animals.  :Mad:

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## Wh00h0069

Everyone makes mistakes. This one cost this lady her life. You really should show respect for the dead.

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_daaangconcepts_ (10-24-2008),_hoax_ (11-28-2008),_Lateralus_Love_ (12-05-2008),_scoobyark_ (10-24-2008)

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## AaronP

> Everyone makes mistakes. This one cost this lady her life. You really should show respect for the dead.


I respect the dead, but I have the ability not to respect individuals, dead or not, this could have been EASILY prevented.

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_mooingtricycle_ (10-25-2008)

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## ANCPYTHONS

> I respect the dead, but I have the ability not to respect individuals, dead or not, this could have been EASILY prevented.


Regardless this is a very sad situation. I feel very bad for both the FAMILY and FRIENDS. :Please:

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## Samuel

My thoughts and prayers ar ewith both the womans family, and the jackholes in this thread.

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Dudelo560 (12-18-2008)

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## wilomn

> man that really sucks = [ 
> i watch to much TV so of course all kinds of scenarios run through my mind and anything is possible. I have heard from "people" that 90% percent of the people who die from attacks from large constrictors are killed because they don't want to hurt the snake. al i have to say is if i'm wrapped.....it's on like donkey kong


This begs the question: how do you know that 90% of the people who are KILLED by their snakes are DEAD because they didn't want to hurt the snake?




> Everyone makes mistakes. This one cost this lady her life. You really should show respect for the dead.


This is another one that's just begging.

Why?

Why do I need to show respect for someone for whom in real life I most likely did not have any respect for? I can see being kind or courteous or not mean, but why respect?

Because they managed to not be alive anymore? We will accomplish at least that much; it's veritably guaranteed. 

I so often see, especially with public figures, people praising the dead ONLY because they are no longer living.

Hypocrisy at it's best. 

Homey don't play dat.

One thing that is known is that many deaths by snake are alcohol and drug related. 

I haven't seen anything in regards to it, but was this girl sober when she died?

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_Beardedragon_ (10-24-2008),_dacalio_ (10-24-2008),_monk90222_ (10-24-2008),_mooingtricycle_ (10-25-2008),_Patrick Long_ (10-24-2008)

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## MasonC2K

Or so the story goes. It seems legit. However, I can imagine an overreactive panic button being pressed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,443830,00.html

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## scales owner

Yep heard this one! I am in Norfolk and I hear of this all the time. People getting into something that they are not sure about. It is a tragady for both noe I am sure there are going to be people gunning fo getting rid of these beautiful snakes. It is a shame do to prob. someone's "senseless"(and I do use that term loosley) act that now people are going to be upset and really going to want these "bigger" snakes banned from now our area. Juat my opinion but I hate snakes to get a bad rap due to someone elses mistakes.

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## Patrick Long

Said......yes


Her fault......yes


When someone does something stupid....like lets. say pours gas on themselves and lights the gas on fire. They die, from their own stupidity. Are we then supposed to feel sorry for them?

Where does one draw the line from being sorry to being....I cant think of the word.

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## Jay_Bunny

This is very sad and very unfortunate to happen when the reptile world is getting so much bad press already. She should have had someone with her. My house rule is if you are going even open the cage to a snake more than 6ft, have another person with you. 

Many of you are jumping to conclusions and doing nothing but disrespecting a dead woman. Yes, she was careless and should have waited to medicate the snake until her husband got home. This doesn't mean you should sit there and insult her and call her a moron. There are people out there who are far worse and they are still alive and keeping their snakes. This woman obviously was doing some things right if she was actually medicating the snake. A moron would have just let a snake die or suffer. But no, she was medicating the snake like any good keeper would do. Should she had someone with her at the time, yes, but from time to time keepers sometimes think they know the animal and feel comfortable being around it alone. 

So all you people out there who are suspecting her husband for killing her and calling her names and saying what a horrible person she is, shut up and have some respect for a fellow reptile keeper.

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_broadude_ (10-25-2008),Dudelo560 (12-18-2008),kratos (10-25-2008),reptile_jones (10-24-2008)

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## wilomn

> This is very sad and very unfortunate to happen when the reptile world is getting so much bad press already. She should have had someone with her. My house rule is if you are going even open the cage to a snake more than 6ft, have another person with you. 
> 
> Many of you are jumping to conclusions and doing nothing but disrespecting a dead woman. Yes, she was careless and should have waited to medicate the snake until her husband got home. This doesn't mean you should sit there and insult her and call her a moron. There are people out there who are far worse and they are still alive and keeping their snakes. This woman obviously was doing some things right if she was actually medicating the snake. A moron would have just let a snake die or suffer. But no, she was medicating the snake like any good keeper would do. Should she had someone with her at the time, yes, but from time to time keepers sometimes think they know the animal and feel comfortable being around it alone. 
> 
> So all you people out there who are suspecting her husband for killing her and calling her names and saying what a horrible person she is, shut up and have some respect for a fellow reptile keeper.


Nope.

She broke THE cardinal rule for keeping big snakes.

It is THE rule for just this reason.

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Dudelo560 (12-18-2008),_filly77_ (10-24-2008),_monk90222_ (10-24-2008),_Patrick Long_ (10-25-2008),_Spaniard_ (10-24-2008)

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## filly77

While I do have sympathy for her & her family- especially the family!! 

but like wilomn said, that is the number 1 rule w/ owning large snakes! 

it gives the responsible herpers a bad name and an even worse name for the snakes. 

she should of just been responsible, had some patience and waited for her husband to come home. she paid the ultimate price, her life... (i hope she didn't have children)  :Sad:

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kratos (10-25-2008)

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## elevatethis

I hope that this serves as a heads up to new and existing keepers as far what these snakes are capable of.  That retic was still relatively small...I think that this really put what they're capable of into perspective, and whether or not your level of experience is adequate to own one.

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## redpython

This is a sad and tragic situation that could've been avoided.   I hope that people who think their snake knows and loves them, take a real look at this situation.   Not being disrespectful or a downer, but a lot of people keep and encounter snakes that can potentially harm them and handle them improperly over and over.

And in my opinion, that snake doesn't look to be ten feet....remember the media always exaggerates the length of snakes.

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## dsirkle

> Very sad for the poor lady and her family .
> 
> But it doesnt take CSI to think the husband had something to do with it.  In most cases husbands do have everything to do with it, and why would this be any different.  
> 
> We all know that police usually dont reveal to the media, what they dont want you to know, or what they dont want the real suspect to know what the police really knows.  So knowing that, if they even suspect the husband it could take a very long time to gather the evidence, and file charges, and even if the husband is a suspect, without sufficient evidence they will never charge him, and we go on living thinking that the snake killed the lady, but only the husband, the snake, and GOD knows what really happened.  
> 
> my .02


You and I clearly don't run with the same crowd as each other do.

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kratos (10-25-2008)

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## wilomn

> This is a sad and tragic situation that could've been avoided.   I hope that people who think their snake knows and loves them, take a real look at this situation.   Not being disrespectful or a downer, but a lot of people keep and encounter snakes that can potentially harm them and handle them improperly over and over.
> 
> And in my opinion, that snake doesn't look to be ten feet....remember the media always exaggerates the length of snakes.


I thought the same thing at first. Then I had a flashback to when I had a young retic. When that guy was seriously 10 feet long, in an 8 ft. cage all the way across the frong and part way back, he was about the thickness of a coke can. 

Retics can stay very skinny up into the 10-12 ft. range.

Some of the reports also said 13 and 15 feet. No even close.

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## SoCaliSon

Regardless of what the rules are, or whether or not she did the right thing handling it by herself, or if it could have been avioded(all these answers are easy)... This is a tragedy, where a human life was lost.  She made a mistake(Like ALL of us do at one time or another), and unfortuantely, she ultimately payed for it.  We do need to learn from incidents like this, but The fact is a life was lost... Regardless of whos fault it is... I do think we need to show some compassion for the fact that she can never come back from this one mistake.  At a funeral for a suicide case do we show any less compasion for the loss of life?  When someone dies of lung cancer, do we skip the mourning process because it was their own bad habit that did it?  :Wag of the finger:  No!   And that kind of attitude in a situation like this, I find obsurd!  Learn from these tragedies,  And swallow your pride... It is obvious she made a mistake... She is gone... Get over yourself and how right you know you are and show some compassion for human life.  I am sorry but the pompus attitude on this situation by some of the members has really suprised me.  

Something as simple as changing lanes at the wrong time could end your life... You never know when a tiny slip up is going to end it all, don't act like you are above this.

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## Colin Vestrand

i personally think that a lot of the responsibility lies with the people that are mass producing these things... i'm sure i'll get flamed, but ya gotta admit, it's pretty out of hand.

the other thing, not to defend the article, they aren't trying to say it's a 'tiger retic' they're using the original common name - which was a tiger python, this goes back to when the british colonized and explored SE Asia.

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_Chuck_ (10-24-2008)

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## wilomn

> Regardless of what the rules are, or whether or not she did the right thing handling it by herself, or if it could have been avioded(all these answers are easy)... This is a tragedy, where a human life was lost.  She made a mistake(Like ALL of us do at one time or another), and unfortuantely, she ultimately payed for it.  We do need to learn from incidents like this, but The fact is a life was lost... Regardless of whos fault it is... I do think we need to show some compassion for the fact that she can never come back from this one mistake.  At a funeral for a suicide case do we show any less compasion for the loss of life?  When someone dies of lung cancer, do we skip the mourning process because it was their own bad habit that did it?  No!   And that kind of attitude in a situation like this, I find obsurd!  Learn from these tragedies,  And swallow your pride... It is obvious she made a mistake... She is gone... Get over yourself and how right you know you are and show some compassion for human life.  I am sorry but the pompus attitude on this situation by some of the members has really suprised me.  
> 
> Something as simple as changing lanes at the wrong time could end your life... You never know when a tiny slip up is going to end it all, don't act like you are above this.


I'm going to assume you're confused and here's why.

There is no lack of compassion for this woman and her stupid though tragic end.

There is also no letting go of the fact that she knew better and broke THE most important rule of giant snake keeping.

When your kid gets his first speeding ticket do you tell him to be more careful where he speeds so he won't get caught or do you tell him to obey the RULES and he won't have to worry about being caught.

It's a damn shame she died. If she's contributed to the gene pool let's hope the offspring got some smarts from the dad.

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_AaronP_ (10-24-2008)

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## redpython

you can show as much compassion as you want to, but reality is reality.

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_monk90222_ (10-24-2008)

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## AaronP

> you can show as much compassion as you want to, but reality is reality.


Exactly!

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## SoCaliSon

> I'm going to assume you're confused and here's why.
> 
> There is no lack of compassion for this woman and her stupid though tragic end.
> 
> There is also no letting go of the fact that she knew better and broke THE most important rule of giant snake keeping.
> 
> When your kid gets his first speeding ticket do you tell him to be more careful where he speeds so he won't get caught or do you tell him to obey the RULES and he won't have to worry about being caught.
> 
> It's a damn shame she died. If she's contributed to the gene pool let's hope the offspring got some smarts from the dad.


*Ass*ume all you want... Your still miles from the mark.

You said..."There is no lack of compassion for this woman..."

And then you also said..."If she's contributed to the gene pool let's hope the offspring got some smarts from the dad."

Are you serious? That level of dense is almost not worth my time.

We all know that she made a mistake... The only difference is that it seems you enjoy rediculing the dead in an effort to pump your own ego... Like I said... but this time I will direct it directly at you *Get Over Yourself*...We know this was a mistake that ended tragically, that could have been avoided... We don't need you to tell us that... and we definatley don't need you taking witty shots and making light of the situation when someone has lost their life.  I could go on in response to your comment... But I personlly feel exchange of thoughts with you is no longer worth my time.

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## SoCaliSon

> you can show as much compassion as you want to, but reality is reality.


Your right you can have compassion for her family and freinds in this time... and it doesn't change the reality that a critical mistake casued her death.  Rediculing the deceased because of the mistake that was made *IS NOT* compassion, and actually shows a serious lack of compassion.

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bityrock24 (10-24-2008),_broadude_ (10-25-2008),kratos (10-25-2008),reptile_jones (10-25-2008)

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## wilomn

> *Ass*ume all you want... Your still miles from the mark.
> 
> You said..."There is no lack of compassion for this woman..."
> 
> And then you also said..."If she's contributed to the gene pool let's hope the offspring got some smarts from the dad."
> 
> Are you serious? That level of dense is almost not worth my time.
> 
> We all know that she made a mistake... The only difference is that it seems you enjoy rediculing the dead in an effort to pump your own ego... Like I said... but this time I will direct it directly at you *Get Over Yourself*...We know this was a mistake that ended tragically, that could have been avoided... We don't need you to tell us that... and we definatley don't need you taking witty shots and making light of the situation when someone has lost their life.  I could go on in response to your comment... But I personlly feel exchange of thoughts with you is no longer worth my time.


Truth hurts Boyo.

I have not taken any shots or been rude. If you think I have then the problem lies squarely with you.

You may not like what I say. I actually could not care less. However, what I say is the plain and simple truth.

There is no lack of compassion in my stating that if she has kids they got some smarts from dad. By the outcome it is obvious this woman was NOT smart enough to have that snake.

It's a doggone shame she wasn't smart enough. But she wasn't. There is no lack of compassion. I'm not glad she's dead. I'm kind of mad that she's helped fuel the fire for not keeping large constrictors as should all who keep or are even thinking about keeping them. Her stupidity can have a direct result on my ability to keep my snakes. I'm supposed to feel more sorry for her? 

Dream on man.

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## jotay

I haven't posted or been on in some time but when I read this article this morning in the Washington Post my first thought was not anything close to thinking foul play was the culprit.
So I figured I would come on here to see what others thought or if she was a member.
My first response was she made a owner mistake and it cost her the ultimate price. I said out loud why in the world was one person alone trying to give meds to a large snake?

If she did indeed work in a local reptile dept and had several snakes then all the more reason she should have known better. Before you keep giants you need to research and know what your dealing with.

I feel for her family and husband. My prayers go out to them.

On the other hand I get upset because it is just another nail in the coffin to take /ban reptiles from us. Poor judgement is what leads to most deaths, that and lack of knowledge in what your dealing with.

I understand everyone has their own opinion and if it was foul play involved once the ME's report is done then we will all know. I tend to think it was a case of bad animal mgmt. 
A split second choice that you can't take back.

Hope this serves as an eye opener to all who sometimes let their guards down or get complacent that sometimes the things we deal with can be unforgiving.

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_Bruce Whitehead_ (10-24-2008)

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## nchapa

> You and I clearly don't run with the same crowd as each other do.



everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but nice way to rack up posts.   :Good Job: 

Everyone makes mistakes, some people learn from them, and some people die.

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## dsirkle

> Very sad for the poor lady and her family .
> 
> But it doesnt take CSI to think the husband had something to do with it.  In most cases husbands do have everything to do with it, and why would this be any different.  
> 
> 
> 
> my .02


I was responding specifically to this part of your post because I found it to be a bizarre point of view. I don't see where learning from mistakes even enters into your thoughts about this.

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kratos (10-25-2008)

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## SoCaliSon

> Truth hurts Boyo.
> 
> I have not taken any shots or been rude. If you think I have then the problem lies squarely with you.
> 
> You may not like what I say. I actually could not care less. However, what I say is the plain and simple truth.
> 
> There is no lack of compassion in my stating that if she has kids they got some smarts from dad. By the outcome it is obvious this woman was NOT smart enough to have that snake.
> 
> It's a doggone shame she wasn't smart enough. But she wasn't. There is no lack of compassion. I'm not glad she's dead. I'm kind of mad that she's helped fuel the fire for not keeping large constrictors as should all who keep or are even thinking about keeping them. Her stupidity can have a direct result on my ability to keep my snakes. I'm supposed to feel more sorry for her? 
> ...


Like I said... We know this was a mistake, and we know that this was avoidable. You speaking the way you are about her... less than a week after her death...Calling her "stupid" and harping on her mistake...is not only is unecessary, but is actively showing a lack of compassion.   I am not saying that your statements are not true... Just that going on like that at this time is insensitive, unecessary, and overly self righteous.  We all make mistakes, we all break the rules now and then, and we all hope that it ends up in our best interest when we do.  I seriously doubt you are any different.  You are going pretty hard on her considering you are judging her based on a brief article and your own *ass*umptions.  Neither you or myslef knew her, or were in the room when it happened... So why do you think you are an expert on her death to the point where you know how stupid she was.  She could have been killed by a clever intruder with a perfect cover up... we just don't know and it is not our place to try and guess, or pass judgement on the case.  I can't imagine what her husband would think reading your statements having just lost his wife... Knowing your level of compassion I know you wouldn't care what he thought.  I hope your kids get their since of morality from someone else.

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_broadude_ (10-25-2008),_hoax_ (11-28-2008),_Jay_Bunny_ (10-25-2008)

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## Skiploder

http://kyherpsoc.org/patrick/

Remember this story?  Same species of snake - same scenario in terms of attempting to medicate a large animal without anyone to help out.

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## bsd13

"But by the grace of God there go I"

That's certainly true of each and every one of us who have handled a large animal of any kind (except maybe domestic dogs). I must say I'm shocked...  :Surprised:  ... at how many people are talking about how stupid she was and what a moron she was as if they've never done something stupid that could have cost them their lives. Only difference between any of us and her is that she got called to account for one of her mistakes and so far we haven't.

I'm just left with this bit of Biblicalesque wisdom to give - _Let he who is without mistakes cast the first stone_

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_broadude_ (10-25-2008),_hoax_ (11-28-2008),kratos (10-25-2008),_scoobyark_ (10-27-2008),Whodinidunit (10-27-2008)

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## waltah!

That's us... Bp.net: The friendliest online community.....who can only seem to talk about how stupid someone was to break a rule when it killed them. Yay us!

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_Bruce Whitehead_ (10-24-2008),_hoax_ (11-28-2008),kratos (10-25-2008),_Morphie_ (10-25-2008),_scoobyark_ (10-27-2008),_SoCaliSon_ (10-24-2008),_Sputnik_ (10-24-2008),Whodinidunit (10-27-2008)

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## bsd13

> That's us... Bp.net: The friendliest online community.....who can only seem to talk about how stupid someone was to break a rule when it killed them. Yay us!


Too true.

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## wilomn

> That's us... Bp.net: The friendliest online community.....who can only seem to talk about how stupid someone was to break a rule when it killed them. Yay us!


Tell me this.

When some guy gets killed for drag racing on public streets, what's the first thing that most of you think?

My guess is this: "that guy was an idiot," quickly followed by, "I feel so sorry for his family that his stupidity took his young life."

Choices were made, consequences were the result.

Doing it before or not has nothing to do with her dying. It was a STUPID thing to do. There is no way around that.

Eh, I'm not trying to convince any of you that I'm right and you're wrong. If there is a right or wrong it really makes no difference to her. She's still stupid and still dead.

If you don't want me to talk about you being stupid, don't do stupid things.

When I do stupid things, which I have and will again, feel free to talk about me or not. As you see fit is fine.

But don't try to force your morality or mores on me. I didn't ask for them, don't want them, and honestly am not really even interested in why you think what I think is so bad.

You all go right ahead and pat yourselves on the back and talk about how compassionate you are and how much you care about people you never met and how terrible those of us who disagree with you must be.

And when a ringneck snake is the only reptile you can keep because all the others pose a threat to STUPID people, you just come right on back to this thread pat each other some more.

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_monk90222_ (10-25-2008)

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## RoyalGuardian

That poor girl! I  think it sounds fishy but you never know....  She was so pretty! Its so sad.... :Sad:

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## mooingtricycle

i call foul play. 

Were there scratch marks or injury to the snake? Did the snake possibly bite her? 

How hard would it be for a grown man to crush a womans throat with an arm? maybe it was someone else? maybe another object used instead? *would they leave visible marks as compared to a snake performing the same action?*

Im all for hearing how this could have happened like this. But i have a real hard time believing a 10 foot snake could kill a person without receiving injury to itself as well. I know i would be clawing at a snake around my neck and tearing it apart, among other things if my life depended on it. ( maybe not, but i have a hard time believing myself that i would go down without a fight) 

Would the coils of a snake that size, block off the bloodflow to the brain before they crushed the esophagus? 

Thanks for any answers to those that might be able to answer them for me. I am just, honestly, having a hard time believing this went down as it did. I suppose its a fault of mine, or learned practice to be skeptical.

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_monk90222_ (10-25-2008)

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## wilomn

> i call foul play. 
> 
> Were there scratch marks or injury to the snake? Did the snake possibly bite her? 
> 
> How hard would it be for a grown man to crush a womans throat with an arm? maybe it was someone else? maybe another object used instead? *would they leave visible marks as compared to a snake performing the same action?*
> 
> Im all for hearing how this could have happened like this. But i have a real hard time believing a 10 foot snake could kill a person without receiving injury to itself as well. I know i would be clawing at a snake around my neck and tearing it apart, among other things if my life depended on it. ( maybe not, but i have a hard time believing myself that i would go down without a fight) 
> 
> Would the coils of a snake that size, block off the bloodflow to the brain before they crushed the esophagus? 
> ...


Moo, I personally saw this happen.

I knew this guy who had a retic. It too happened to be about 10 feet long and not very thick, though it was a bit larger than the one in the pictures. 

This guy with the retic knew another guy. This other guy was small, maybe 5'7" and 145lbs dripping wet. Not exactly muscle bound but not a weakling by any means.

So, this little guy comes out wearing the retic. (I think I told this story on fauna once) We laughed when the snake pinned one of his arms. We chuckled with him when the snake looped his neck. We laughed some more when it sent a loop out and pinned his other arm to his chest.

Now the snake has both arms pinned and a loop around his neck. It's not a big snake by any means. Long and skinny.

He started turning red which just turned the laughter up. 

When he started turning purple we got up and unwrapped him.

The snake never bit him, never to upset, never really even moved fast. But it wrapped him up and would have killed him had he not followed THE rule for having large snakes.

I am in no way saying it wasn't intentional, that was my first thought. I am saying that I can see how a snake that size could kill a small person.

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_mooingtricycle_ (10-25-2008)

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## bsd13

> But don't try to force your morality or mores on me. I didn't ask for them, don't want them, and honestly am not really even interested in why you think what I think is so bad.


Welcome to the real world. Morality exists and we all have to deal with it.

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## waltah!

> Tell me this.
> 
> When some guy gets killed for drag racing on public streets, what's the first thing that most of you think?
> 
> My guess is this: "that guy was an idiot," quickly followed by, "I feel so sorry for his family that his stupidity took his young life."
> 
> Choices were made, consequences were the result.
> 
> Doing it before or not has nothing to do with her dying. It was a STUPID thing to do. There is no way around that.
> ...


I don't see anyone trying to push their morals on you here. You must be a little interested in why we think what you said was bad because you took the time to type this long reply. The people who just want to say how stupid she is keep saying "I have a right to my opinion". Guess what, so do I. I highly doubt that anyone is patting themselves on the back here. I agree that if this woman was handling a retic alone and it did kill her that it was a huge mistake. I don't see how calling her stupid over and over is gonna help anything.

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kratos (10-25-2008)

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## wilomn

> I don't see how calling her stupid over and over is gonna help anything.


Then perhaps you will lead the way in letting this go.

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## redpython

The snake that killed patrick turned out to be between nine and ten feet.

I am actually the one who created this page...i knew patrick and it was a horrible and tragic situation.  for his family and for the herp society.  

very similar situation, he was administrating medice to the snakes mouth by himself.

http://kyherpsoc.org/patrick/

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## AaronP

> The snake that killed patrick turned out to be between nine and ten feet.
> 
> I am actually the one who created this page...i knew patrick and it was a horrible and tragic situation.  for his family and for the herp society.  
> 
> very similar situation, he was administrating medice to the snakes mouth by himself.
> 
> http://kyherpsoc.org/patrick/


Ya know I do feel sorry for the family and friends of these people, because they have to deal with the emotions that comes with losing someone you're close to.  But it's hard for me to feel sorry for the actual person when the situation could have been prevented...

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kratos (10-25-2008)

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## frankykeno

I heartily dislike this back and forth jabbing at each other.  Why do you folks have to do this?  Do your ego's really need this boost of one upping each other on a daily basis? I do find it rather funny one of our more vocal posters was just as adament about taking the other side of the argument when it came to venomous snakes but that's a discussion for another time I suppose.  

I'm glad, however, that this thread was posted if it brings into focus the responsibility to be a safe, sane and responsible snake owner when you choose to own large snakes.  

We have only the one snake over 8 feet and she's certainly no giant but at over 3 feet longer than I am tall and made of pure muscle I'd be the worst kind of fool to think I could ever win out over Tequila's strength.  We have rules about her.  How we house her.  How we handle her.  Those rules were discussed, laid down and agreed to before we ever finalized her adoption from Jamie and Amy.  With kids in the house, with all of us a bit complacent with handling the other much smaller snakes, Mike and I felt it was imperative to make sure we showed the kids what we think of as the right way to deal with this beautiful big snake of ours.

I'm sorry this woman died.  I'm more sorry she made a horrific mistake that she was likely well aware of the consequences of but still chose to take that snake out and try to handle and medicate it alone.  Her family's loss is great.  The damage this sort of story does to us all in the greater herping community is pretty awful.  All in all a very horrible thing that could have and should have been avoidable. 

Can we simply focus on good snake keeping habits when it comes to larger snakes and leave the amateur CSIing and the insults out?  I'd rather we learned from this tragedy, wouldn't you?

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_bait4snake_ (10-25-2008),_broadude_ (10-25-2008),_Bruce Whitehead_ (10-30-2008),_bsd13_ (10-25-2008),_hoax_ (11-28-2008),_jotay_ (10-25-2008),Muze (10-27-2008),reptile_jones (10-28-2008),_scutechute_ (10-25-2008),Stewart_Reptiles (10-25-2008)

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## wilomn

> I heartily dislike this back and forth jabbing at each other.  Why do you folks have to do this?  Do your ego's really need this boost of one upping each other on a daily basis? I do find it rather funny one of our more vocal posters was just as adament about taking the other side of the argument when it came to venomous snakes but that's a discussion for another time I suppose.


Jab Jab Jab

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## TheKingInYellow

I'm still new to snakes and new to these forums, but if I can take a stab at it, I would say that people looking to blame the husband or the victim here are simply getting defensive about their hobby.  Look at the thread on the Gaboon Viper bite that happened here in Winnipeg and you see the same behaviour, but of course the outcome in that case was less drastic.

Given the current push in the US to ban these large and dangerous animals, you have some real cognitive dissonance going on here.  People know that the reality is that any snake over six or eight feet is a potential killer given unusual circumstances.  People know that snakes really aren't *ideal* pets.  People know that they make mistakes in their handling all the time.  Having said all that, people don't want to be told that what they are doing is potentially *wrong*.  

When the unthinkable happens, everyone immediately wants to distance themselves from the events and make the person who screwed up an outcast from the community.  When someone drag racing on a street kills a pedestrian, every guy who has ever floored it off a red light feels that little knot of doubt gnawing at their gut saying 'It could have been me.'

Look at what people are saying; 'She never should have', 'It must have been the husband', etc...  It's hard to simply say, 'I have an animal in my home that is equally lethal, and that could have been me on any day of the week'.  Burmese, coastals, retics, red-tails, bloods...  Any one of these could easily overpower an average human if they got around your neck, face or chest.

I think the only healthy response to this is compassion for her family and a renewed commitment to safety in our own homes.  No one wants to admit it, but the federal government probably has a point that these animals really don't belong in the hands of an average hobbiest.

Just my two cents.

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_broadude_ (10-25-2008),reptile_jones (10-28-2008),Skiploder (10-30-2008)

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## bsd13

TKiY - You make a good point.

We've all become to complacent and familiar with our animals. For whatever reason we've lost that natural instinct of immense respect and a realization that these large snakes are NOT household pets like any other. We don't treat them as they should be treated and that's in part because familiarity breed contempt. 

I mean if we had a pet bear we'd treat it as a potential killer at all times but when it comes to snakes we often treat them as if they were nothing but a kitten in a big body. How often do we see people describing their snakes as "gentle as a kitten", "would never hurt anyone", "friendly as a puppy", etc, etc, etc?

I can almost guarantee that had this woman truly realized that she was dealing with a wild animal that is by no stretch of the imagination domesticated and not a traditional pet except that it's a captive then she probably wouldn't have been killed. She would have not only been respectful of what it is but also would have been terrified of what it could potentially do. 

I mentioned a pet bear and I once had the opportunity to do a rehab with a bear. It was a tiny cub when we got it and for the longest time even when it weighed almost 400lbs I still visualized it as a tiny cub. Treated it that way too. Until one day I saw it take a "playful" swipe at a 120 pound bail of hay and send it skidding well over 10 yards along rocky uneven ground. That's when I realized this bear was a wild animal and though I could scratch it behind the ears and feed it from my hands it would absolutely destroy me if it got the thought in it's mind to do so and I'm 6'4" 250lbs.

All in all I'm just saying it might be time to start treating large snakes as the wild captive animals they are and not as little lap dogs.

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reptile_jones (10-28-2008)

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## wilomn

13, you make an excellent point.

That point leads me to this thought.

If we don't treat some of them like the kittens the pretend to be, if we don't take those and then get them to procreate in the hopes of making more kittenish snakes, if no one takes that chance of dying to tame and keep tame large snakes, then there is virtually no hope of there ever actually being large snakes as tame as kittens.

However, if some do take that chance, if they do go through tens or hundreds or maybe even thousands of individuals looking for "just the right one" to plug into a breeding project, and one of the goals of that project is to have kitten tame snakes, then eventually, someday, there is a very good possibility that that is exactly what will be produced.

Comparing apples to oranges here, if you can breed a dog to be aggressive, if you can breed it to have bug eyes and a curly tail, and do that successfully through successive generations, then it may well be possible to breed attitude into snakes.

I think it is well under way even now.

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_broadude_ (10-25-2008)

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## bsd13

wilomn - I see what you are saying and here's my thought. You're right to some extent. You mentioned dogs being bred to be aggressive so I'll use dogs as an example in what I'm going to say.

When breeders started to produce the lineage that was to become the American Pit Bull Terrier they had a few things in mind. Fearless, tenacious, drive, desiring to please no matter the cost and 100% docile towards humans. They used to give the pups something commonly known as a bite test. Which essentially was to see if they could get the animal to bite out of anger or fear. Any that did were immediately culled (that is killed) so they couldn't infect future dogs with a gene that might cause aggression. 

In the fight and bull baiting rings any dog that snarled or snapped or bit a human was killed on the spot. The people promoting APBTs had a very strict standard of the type of animal they wanted and selective breeding and a willingness to kill those animals that didn't meet that standard got them exactly what they set out to get.

Can you for one second imagine today someone doing anything similar with their snakes in an effort to insure that only the "best" genes were passed on? I can't. I mean imagine you stick you hand into a tank with a few baby retics and all but one strikes and hisses at you. You kill all but the one and set it aside to be used in bringing in future generations of snakes. I absolutely don't see anything like that happening with snakes and that's *one* reason I don't see them becoming domesticated.

Beyond that we have the backyard breeders. Just like they've all but destroyed the Pit Bull breed I can easily see that happening to snakes. Hell people are all but giving away burmese and retics even freshly hatched because everyone and their mother saw dollar signs when it came to breeding snakes. How often do you hear a hobbyist breeder say "You know there's too many retics out there right now so I'm going to take this breeding season off and maybe next."? Pretty much never or if they do it's a financial consideration more than anything.

But I digress. A woman is dead, killed by a wild animal that lives in a cage and she did something stupid. But how stupid are the rest of us for keeping wild animals in cages just a few feet from where we sleep?

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## icygirl

> However, if some do take that chance, if they do go through tens or hundreds or maybe even thousands of individuals looking for "just the right one" to plug into a breeding project, and one of the goals of that project is to have kitten tame snakes, then eventually, someday, there is a very good possibility that that is exactly what will be produced.
> 
> Comparing apples to oranges here, if you can breed a dog to be aggressive, if you can breed it to have bug eyes and a curly tail, and do that successfully through successive generations, then it may well be possible to breed attitude into snakes.
> 
> I think it is well under way even now.


I didn't know it was possible to breed aggression out of snakes? Do you know who, if anyone is attempting this project?

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## wilomn

13 and Icy,

I have been in the reptile business for several decades. I'm not bragging I just want you to know where I got my ideas from. I've been in retail, wholesale, import and breeder businesses.

I've seen multitudes of people pick a pet. One of the main things they ask about is attitude. Let's say it's important to 7 out of 10.

Of those 7 let's say only 2 raise up and then breed the snake they got in part because it was nice. Those 2 breeders then become proud parents and tell everyone how specail and neat their babies are and how, here's the key, they have such different personalities. 

Jimbob is so nice I can kiss him on the nose but that food bucket Abigal won't let me anywhere near her, she's just like her brother Abner. 

Out of the whole litter, only those two are really mean.

So, here we have the beginnings of weeding out aggression.

Note I do NOT mention domestication.

It may take, no will take, many years and many generations but I have no doubt there will be a visible difference between the average large snake produced and the average, attitude only now, snake produce in 20 to 30 years, which for some snakes will only be 4 to 6 generations; barely enough time for any change to evidence itself.

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## jotay

> wilomn -  But how stupid are the rest of us for keeping wild animals in cages just a few feet from where we sleep?


Not very if indeed they are kept in cages. The stupidity comes into play when you attempt to feed, med, or handle a large snake without someone else present.

My father worked at the National Zoo as a police officer and when on the night shift his favorite place to nap on break was in the reptile house amongst the venomous snakes. Which of course were in cages. Had he decide to let them out then he would have been stupid.

As for domestication of snakes I have to agree that is not going to happen simply I feel due to the size of the brain and thought process. Not much to work with there but instincts.

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## wilomn

Re: Virginia Beach, VA - Woman killed by pet python
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsd13 View Post
wilomn - But how stupid are the rest of us for keeping wild animals in cages just a few feet from where we sleep?
Not very if indeed they are kept in cages. The stupidity comes into play when you attempt to feed, med, or handle a large snake without someone else present.

My father worked at the National Zoo as a police officer and when on the night shift his favorite place to nap on break was in the reptile house amongst the venomous snakes. Which of course were in cages. Had he decide to let them out then he would have been stupid.

As for domestication of snakes I have to agree that is not going to happen simply I feel due to the size of the brain and thought process. Not much to work with there but instincts.
__________________
~ Johanna ~ aka Jody

"The greatness of a nation and it's moral progress can be measured by the way it's animals are treated"
~ Mahatma Gandhi~ 

Just for clarification's sake, the above quote was about sleeping near reptiles was solely 13's, not mine. I never said any such thing.

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## bsd13

> Not very if indeed they are kept in cages. The stupidity comes into play when you attempt to feed, med, or handle a large snake without someone else present.
> 
> My father worked at the National Zoo as a police officer and when on the night shift his favorite place to nap on break was in the reptile house amongst the venomous snakes. Which of course were in cages. Had he decide to let them out then he would have been stupid.
> 
> As for domestication of snakes I have to agree that is not going to happen simply I feel due to the size of the brain and thought process. Not much to work with there but instincts.


Woosh!

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## scales owner

Update incase if anyone didn't hear or cares. They put the snake down on Fri. I was so tempted to go and get it from there cause I was almost certin of what was going to happen. Kinnda kicking myself for not but I am not even sure if they would give it to me. The snake was put down per request of the husband.

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## Colin Vestrand

well there are hundreds more retics that need good homes, so all is not lost if you want to save one!

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## 92phantom

i no a girl on reptile geeks who knew this lady and said she was always careful and repectful to her snakes she had a couple more besides that retic. and she said that the retic was really docile but put a needle near me or retrain me to give me medicine i'm gonna fight to if i was snake. They don't know whats goin on just whether or not its feeding time.

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## monk90222

> The snake was put down per request of the husband.


Back to my original thought....eliminate some of the physical evidence.....

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## broadude

I have till now kept out of this, because I could see the rationale on both sides.

However, reading how she had experience and that reptiles were not new to her, I am of the mind that she wasn't "stupid,"  nor did she make a "stupid" mistake.  I would label it more "misplaced" concern.

She seemed to be more concerned about the animal's health than her own safety.  Perhaps she thought that she knew the snake well enough to be able to handle it on her own.  We will never know what behaviors that the animal was displaying that made her take that chance.

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## broadude

> Back to my original thought....eliminate some of the physical evidence.....


How in the world is the snake considered "evidence?"  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

It can't talk and investigators can't get anything from it unless it's dead, and since it is now dead, if the police decide that the snake is worth investigating, they now have a cadaver to work on...but it would show nothing other than to match up any "bruises" with the snakes size, perhaps scale indentations etc.

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## monk90222

> ...but it would show nothing other than to match up any "bruises" with the snakes size, perhaps scale indentations etc.



exactly....the husband requested the snake to be put down. The body of the snake can be disposed of....no more measuring the snake or other stuff you mentioned if there is no snake to measure/compare to....(this is just my opinion....and I have the right to have one... :Salute: )

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## Muze

> I have till now kept out of this, because I could see the rationale on both sides.
> 
> However, reading how she had experience and that reptiles were not new to her, I am of the mind that she wasn't "stupid,"  nor did she make a "stupid" mistake.  I would label it more "misplaced" concern.
> 
> She seemed to be more concerned about the animal's health than her own safety.  Perhaps she thought that she knew the snake well enough to be able to handle it on her own.  We will never know what behaviors that the animal was displaying that made her take that chance.


I agree with you.  Honestly, this thread should have been over a while ago.  Someone died trying to take care of their sick snake.  Her actions may not have been well thought out, but it wasn't as if she died trying to wrangle some deadly snake to impress others.

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## sho220

Wow...This thread is a great reminder of why I stopped coming here...some of you seem to have a firm grasp on reality, but I think you're still out-numbered by the insane, holier-than-thou, have never made a mistake in their life.

I'm gone...and don't worry, I'll be leaving so fast the door won't have time to hit me on the a$$!  :Good Job:

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## broadude

> Wow...This thread is a great reminder of why I stopped coming here...some of you seem to have a firm grasp on reality, but I think you're still out-numbered by the insane, holier-than-thou, have never made a mistake in their life
> 
> I'm gone...and don't worry, I'll be leaving so fast the door won't have time to hit me on the a$$!


The more good people are run off because of the "holier than thou..."  the fewer people with a "firm grasp on reality" left to hold them in check.

I hope you rethink your decision.

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## Colin Vestrand

> exactly....the husband requested the snake to be put down. The body of the snake can be disposed of....


yes, God forbid the man doesn't want the snake that killed his wife to ever be seen or to hurt anyone else...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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_broadude_ (10-29-2008)

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## Skiploder

Let's make no mistake about this - this is a tragedy -_ but an avoidable one_.  While my condolences go out to this woman's family, it doesn't change the fact that she was acting irresponsibly.

I continue to read articles and posts from people who talk about how "tame" their giants are.  Let's get back to reality -  they aren't tame, they don't "think", the concept of "trustworthy" should not be used in conjunction with any reptile and continuing to propagate these myths is doing nothing but putting our hobby in danger.

Too many giant reptiles, be it monitors or snakes, are being sold to people who have no business owning them.  When I see articles in magazines espousing that retics and burms make excellent captives, I cringe.  When people are using giants as "meet and greet" animals at kids parties and events, I cringe.  We sit here and wring our hands about the government stepping in and trying to regulate our hobby, but very few people are making any effort at self regulation.

It is a matter of time until something even more tragic happens.  What's everyone's reaction going to be when a burm or a retic constricts someone's kid because it smelled the family cat or bunny on them?   When the leading magazine in our hobby is running articles stating that they make good captives or showing pictures of children petting a 13' snake at a party - what message is being broadcast?

All this talk about "knowing" the animal or discussing that somehow her behavior was acceptable because it was docile is silly.  It's a giant, potentially deadly animal with a brain the size of a marble.  All you need to know is that if it's hungry or upset, all bets are out the window.

You can't make comparisons between taking a chance with a 5' ball python and an 11' retic.  While it's tragic that someone lost their life this way, asking people to censor their feelings on the issue out of respect for the dead is uncalled for.  It's incidents like this that are putting the future of our hobby on the line.

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## scales owner

> i no a girl on reptile geeks who knew this lady and said she was always careful and repectful to her snakes she had a couple more besides that retic. and she said that the retic was really docile but put a needle near me or retrain me to give me medicine i'm gonna fight to if i was snake. They don't know whats goin on just whether or not its feeding time.


Very true...also yes she did have more. I belive in adition to.... there was a Burm. Python, 2-3 GTP's A red tail boa, a king snake and I think maybe one more. They also said that she worked w/ reps. for a few years...no master but well aware enough to know the situation and if it was dangerous or not. Leading to this.......




> Back to my original thought....eliminate some of the physical evidence.....


I wouldn't be suprised if he WAS envolved in it. It is still under investagation as far as I know.

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## butters!

some of you guys are crazy! there is a girl dead and i hear she is stupid and a moron.if this was a relative of yours would you still call them stupid?or a moron?alot of you are just as cold blooded as the animals you keep!friggin makes me sick to even think of such BS.i would issue out bad reps but i dont have time .thats sad to say considering this is the friendliest reptile forum on the net

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## wilomn

> some of you guys are crazy! there is a girl dead and i hear she is stupid and a moron.if this was a relative of yours would you still call them stupid?or a moron?alot of you are just as cold blooded as the animals you keep!friggin makes me sick to even think of such BS.i would issue out bad reps but i dont have time .thats sad to say considering this is the friendliest reptile forum on the net


So then, let me see if I have a proper grasp of your point of view.

Since your opinion is not "gospel" some of us are less than you?

How interesting.

Does it get lonely up on that pedestal you've glued your backside to?

Coldblooded does not equate to honest. 

Are you inferring that this dead girl, stupidly and moronically dead by the way, was not acting in a stupid or moronic fashion? Was she exhibiting extreme intelligence? Was she above THE rule for handling large constrictors? Because she's dead we shouldn't speak the truth?

How stupid and moronic is that?

You're welcome to your feelings but you are no better, and probably no worse, though that remains to be seen since you seem to want to restrict the ability of those who think other than you to post those feelings in public, than anyone else here.

You should try to remember that.

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## butters!

i am in no way riding the high horse.just upset with wat some are saying.its disrespectful and pointless.its one thing to say she made a mistake and try to prevent this from happening to someone else,not drill into the ground how dumb,stupid and moronic she is.

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## wilomn

> i am in no way riding the high horse.just upset with wat some are saying.its disrespectful and pointless.its one thing to say she made a mistake and try to prevent this from happening to someone else,not drill into the ground how dumb,stupid and moronic she is.


Your opinion and you're entitled to it.

But I'd be willing to bet you do not soon forget this thread and what was said in it, both positive and negative.

Ever wonder if that was the point, the not forgetting, of any of the posters?

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## butters!

> Your opinion and you're entitled to it.
> 
> But I'd be willing to bet you do not soon forget this thread and what was said in it, both positive and negative.
> 
> Ever wonder if that was the point, the not forgetting, of any of the posters?


you are right about not forgetting this thread......but dont you think there is another way besides bashing her,and accusing the husband of killing her and blaming the snake?

ill never forget this thread because it shows that this may be the friendliest reptile forum on the net as long as your snake doesnt kill you

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## hoax

Wow this thread went down hill fast...

I think that we are all entitled to our own opinions.

I just think there is a right and a wrong way to say things. I have done it both ways on here and now I try to be more positive than negative.

I know that a lot of herp lovers come here for support during times of hardship. When I lost my hatchling male this is the first forum I came to. I know it is not the same thing by any means. I just hope that the people related to this lady didn't try to come here for support they would have been ridiculed and attacked for the actions of their "stupid" friend.

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## wilomn

> I just hope that the people related to this lady didn't try to come here for support they would have been ridiculed and attacked for the actions of their "stupid" friend.


I disagree.

No one was attacked but the people expressing opinions, particularly those not showing sympathy for someone who did something stupid.

Accusations of murder were pure speculation, no facts, just guesses.

Her breaking THE rule is FACT. The rest is written and there for any to see.

Just because the truth hurts does NOT mean it should be covered up or mentioned only in whispers or, even worse, excused because the stupidity lead to the death of an otherwise, so far as we have been told, nice girl.

Unless I've missed a post or two, no one related to her was attacked, accused of murder, but not attacked for having an opinion.

If calling this woman stupid a hundred times keeps one doofus from doing what she did ....... where as praising her for her wanting to help a sick snake lead to her dying makes someone else think THEY could do it for what ever reason and ads yet another stupid death to the toll....

Well, you all do as you like. When it all goes wrong I'm sure we'll hear about it and comment in threads about it.

If you don't want the world knowing that you're stupid, don't do stupid things.

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## hoax

I agree I think it was marvelously stupid...

I just don't think we should be fighting amongst us.

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## wilomn

Someone in this thread mentioned something about lung cancer and suicide and how those deaths are treated.

I know two people who killed themselves. I will kick both of their asses so badly when I see them again that if they ever get the chance to off themselves again, they won't. I cried at both funerals and am angry and sad and disappointed to this day and it's been years.

My friends made STUPID mistakes. I understand why, just as I understand why this woman made HER stupid mistake, they made them.

I'll not be sugar coating it and making excuses. I'm all the things I mentioned, which some of you seem to think is necessary and ALL that should be felt for and thought of the dead.

I simply disagree.

Let's talk lung cancer. Let's compare nicotine addiction to stupidity.

You KNOW it is addicting in the EXTREME. 

You KNOW it is LIKELY, not possible but PROBABLY GOING TO HAPPEN, that your LIFE will be SHORTENED by injesting this drug.

You KNOW you may well DIE by injesting this drug.

You have seen friends and strangers DIE by injesting this drug.

No one made you take it. No one is forcing you to continue taking it.
Don't EVEN come crying to me about how hard it is to quit, YOU started this habit KNOWING it would be but you probaly thought you were the one it a hundred who could quit just because you wanted to. YOU did it to YOU.

Tell me again why I should feel sorry for you STUPID action?

I've got a brother who has smoked for over 30 years. He's younger than me and looks older, his lungs are full of crap, his teeth are yellow and his gums are in bad shape. His skin is wrinkled and he stinks all the time from his smoking. 

For over 30 years I've told him it was a stupid habit. If he dies from it I will at his wake lament the fact that he was addicted to a drug that he knew could well be a serious detriment to his health and that because of that I don't have my little brother anymore. That doesn't mean I don't care or won't miss him, it just means that truth is important. If you cover up the truth you do a disservice to your fellow man. For my own self I can't do that in this type of situation. 

Be it snakes or drugs or driving fast or what have you, when someone dies by making a STUPID mistake, not a newbie mistake or a mistake all unknowing, others can benefit from the knowledge of how that mistake was made. They, your fellow man, will learn nothing if it is glossed over or covered up.

So again, if you would, explain to me why saying this woman did a STUPID thing is rude? It may not be kind, but it's the truth. If she didn't want it to be the truth she should have followed THE RULE.

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_monk90222_ (11-28-2008)

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## hoax

I agree with you 100% I just think there is a better way of saying it. I know it is just splitting hairs with words. I just think that you could say she broke the #1 rule with dealing with large harps and being alone and people would know what you meant. Or something similar. I think it was the people who were automatically accusing the husband of killing her (which is absolutely STUPID) and then the bluntness of your comment that really started this. I agree with you you can be sympathetic while still pointing out the truth. I just don't really see the benefit of having that argument here.

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## wilomn

There never really was an argument from my point of view.

It was basically semantics and not fitting into the boxes other people insist on living in.

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## monk90222

> I think it was the people who were automatically accusing the husband of killing her (which is absolutely STUPID)


Why would you say that? I was one of those people who believe there is more to this story than what has been published. Were you there?...Did you see the snake kill her?....You weren't.....so you do not know.

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## Lateralus_Love

> I heartily dislike this back and forth jabbing at each other.  Why do you folks have to do this?  Do your ego's really need this boost of one upping each other on a daily basis? 
> 
> Can we simply focus on good snake keeping habits when it comes to larger snakes and leave the amateur CSIing and the insults out?  I'd rather we learned from this tragedy, wouldn't you?


 :Bowdown:

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## hoax

> Why would you say that? I was one of those people who believe there is more to this story than what has been published. Were you there?...Did you see the snake kill her?....You weren't.....so you do not know.


I am kinda drunk so i am going to say this plainly.

I could care less if the cat killed her. I was simply responding to this stupid jabbing back and fourth over nothing.

Its pointless and kinda dumb.

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