# Site General > General Herp >  Culling Healthy Animals

## ShawnC

Let me first explain that I am not trying to start any fights, but I am trying to get some open, and honest debate going on a topic that I feel is long overdue in our Hobby.  It is my position, and it has been for a long time, that culling of perfectly healthy animals is a good thing when apposed to just dumping massive numbers of them into the public marketplace.

Below is a post that I made in another forum where we are debating this very thing.  I am begging you all PLEASE do not fight, and keep this in the tone that it is intended, which is a fair, and reasonable debate on the pro's and con's of what we, as serious hobbiest's do to our own hobby by breeding enourmous amounts of these animals every year.

I should preface this by saying that I do cull a small percentage of animals that I feel are better served by being used as feeders for my Monitor Lizard, and my Arrowanna fish, rather than sent out into the marketplace as junk snakes.  I should also point out that I work with Carpet pythons alot, so I am talking alot about hybridized, ugly brown carpets, but this arguement can be made for Normal Balls as well.  So here goes..please read below, and post what you think is right or wrong?

"I love this debate, because it's all about feelings. These are ANIMALS that we work with as a hobby. They are not my pet like my dog. I probably should have said I love my hobby, as that is much more accurate than I love my snakes. I don't cry and get all upset if I loose a snake...but I bawl when I loose a dog. They are two different things to me. A dog is a part of my family, my pet. My snakes are my hobby. This is a hobby that I enjoy, and I won't jeapordize my hobby to make you guys feel better about killing off unwanted animals (which is good for the hobby). There is ethically, absoutely, no difference, between breeding rats and feeding them off, and breeding snakes and feeding them off. Its done with hundreds if not thousand of species of animals all over the world, every day. Snakes are no different. You like snakes...so it doens't feel right, but ethically, it absolutely is.

I would take it one further and argue that, I am doing ugly snakes a service by ending their lives quickly rather than letting them changes hands from owner to owner dozens of times, until eventually they die from abuse or worse, they escape or are let loose (both hurt our hobby enormously). This is what happens to the majority of ugly, unwanted animals, including snakes. So under the guise of you loving your animals, you send tens of thousands of them (unwanted) off each year, to die much more prolonged deaths, than merely being eaten by a natural predator. This decision is about your feelings, not logical thinking and/or the betterment of the hobby. It's about your heart, whch I totally get, but is the reason the hobby is in the state that it's in. 

Now that all said. I think you guys think that I just kill off everything that I produce thats not a morph. Thats not what I said. I said if I have really ugly, unsellable stock, (which is a pretty small percentage) that has no chance of being purchased by someone that I know will care for the animal properly, I see no reason to not feed it to my lizard or my giant fish. Snakes are prey for both animals in the wild. Especialy baby snakes. It's completely normal. No different than deciding one day to throw them one of my mice or rats. 

BTW, before you call me money hungry only wanting to keep the best, easiest selling snakes, keep in mind that thats counterproductive. I can always find a jobber to buy my left overs each season for $40 per animals. 10 snakes times $40 each is still $400. Thats alot of cash. It's not about the money. It's about weather or not I think it's a good thing for the hobby to be sending out animals that I know are undesirable and, in most cases, destined to have not so great lives anyway. 

You guys want to see all of the designer stuff ,and you want to work on all the projects for double, triple, even quadruple mutations...then you have to deal with the truth which is that in order to make those, you produce lots of normal snakes (in every species, not just carpets). If you think dumping them into the marketplace is good for the animals, and good for the hobby, you'd be dead wrong."

S~

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_jknudson_ (09-17-2009)

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## Adam_Wysocki

I morally cannot get past the idea of killing a healthy animal that many many responsible people would gladly provide a forever home for.

I feel that if you are producing these animals, then you have taken on the responsibility of either keeping or finding responsible forever homes for every life that you produce.

To me, your analogy that feeding off these "less than acceptable" animals is no different than breeding rodents as feeders doesn't cut the mustard. If you were specifically breeding snakes for food (like rodent breeders do with rodents) or if your pets would not eat any other prey item than snakes I might be able to understand. But this is not the case, you are making a choice to end a life that doesn't have to be ended. You also are not feeding off ALL of your offspring, just the ones that you personally don't like.

Blaming the "irresponsible public" for the willful killing of a perfectly healthy animal has always been a perverted sense of logic that I've never been able to understand. Pointing a finger and saying that if I don't kill these animals someone else will or someone will let it go or someone will let it suffer is complete crap ... the exact same thing could happen with the animals that you put a high value on and decide not to kill. Maybe the solution is to screen your customers more thoroughly, maybe you shouldn't produce as many offspring, maybe you shouldn't breed at all. But I can say with absolute certainty that justifying the killing of a perfectly healthy animal by blaming the public at large is pathetic.

The bottom line is that I value life ... all life ... I despise the idea of ending a healthy life for any reason, even if that reason is feeding my animals ... but there is a cycle of life that I have respect for and until an alternative solution presents itself, I must follow. But playing god by picking and choosing which lives have value and which lives are acceptable to destroy is something that I personally don't believe that any person has the right to do.

Blessings,

-adam

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## Spaniard

Adam thank you for saving me a lot of typing  :Good Job:   I whole heartedly agree...

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## JLC

I'm gonna start off by letting folks know the staff will be watching this thread very closely.  It's a hot topic issue that can easily erupt into something very ugly.  If it does, it may get sent to QT, or it may get pulled entirely.  Just a heads up. 

As for the topic at hand...I see two issues I'd like to comment on based on the OP's initial statement.  

One...snakes as feeders:  This is something that can be emotionally difficult to deal with for those who emotionally love their snakes...but the OP is right in that it is no different than rodents (lots of folks love mice and rats just as much as we love our snakes)...lizards...frogs...and other feeder animals.  I may never choose to use a snake as a feeder animal (I'd never keep an animal that HAD to eat a snake)....but I also wouldn't hold it against anyone for using snakes as feeders for legitimate reasons. 

Two...loving the hobby vs. loving the animals: That, I find exception to.  The whole POINT of the hobby is the animals.  If a person is "into the hobby" but not in love with the animals....well, the only other reason I can fathom is the money.   :Confused2:   Maybe I misunderstood.  That disagreement with your statement doesn't change my opinion of the point of using snakes as feeder animals....but it DOES color my perception of your motivations for your argument.  

I think it's wrong to assume "ugly" animals are doomed to horrible lives just because they don't live up to your personal standards of beauty.  If we take on the task of breeding these animals, then we should ACCEPT the responsibility for the lives we bring into this world.  Unhealthy animals should be culled mercifully.  Healthy animals may be used for feeders _if necessary_.  But to justify culling healthy animals "for the good of the hobby" is little more than a flippant attitude about life that, unfortunately, is rampant in this and other animal-breeding hobbies.

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## ShawnC

> I feel that if you are producing these animals, then you have taken on the responsibility of either keeping or finding responsible forever homes for every life that you produce.


So when you produce 100 (i don't know if you do or not, its a rhetorical question) normal Ball pythons, and you wholsale them for $10 each to a jobber, does that qualify as taking responsibility, or is that just making a quick buck?  Be honest with yourself I emplore you.




> To me, your analogy that feeding off these "less than acceptable" animals is no different than breeding rodents as feeders doesn't cut the mustard.


Why not?  I am nto freezing them or chopping their heads off.  I am choosing to use them as feeders to care for my other animals. 




> Blaming the "irresponsible public" for the willful killing of a perfectly healthy animal has always been a perverted sense of logic that I've never been able to understand. Pointing a finger and saying that if I don't kill these animals someone else will or someone will let it go or someone will let it suffer is complete crap ... the exact same thing could happen with the animals that you put a high value on and decide not to kill. Maybe the solution is to screen your customers more thoroughly, maybe you shouldn't produce as many offspring, maybe you shouldn't breed at all. But I can say with absolute certainty that justifying the killing of a perfectly healthy animal by blaming the public at large is pathetic.


In your opinion.  My opinion is, it's more ethical of me to take the responsibility and make the choice to feed them off.  Why would I want to sell them off cheap, with no sayso on where they go and who cares for them, when they are, based on market value, not likely to have a high quality of life?  I would argue you are not taking responsibility when you do that.  It's much easier to just sell them.  (Again, you being the guy who may, or may not produce a bunch of unwanted snakes)  Expensive animals are much more likely to be cared for properly.  Thats just basic common sense.  There are exceptions to every rule...but you have to look at this from the majority point of view.  




> The bottom line is that I value life ... all life ... I despise the idea of ending a healthy life for any reason, even if that reason is feeding my animals ... but there is a cycle of life that I have respect for and until an alternative solution presents itself, I must follow. But playing god by picking and choosing which lives have value and which lives are acceptable to destroy is something that I personally don't believe that any person has the right to do.


You are already playing god by deciding to breed reptiles in captivity.  These animals do not need you to do that for them I assure you.  you do it for personal pleasure.  When you make that decision, you also make the decision to feed and care for them.  Why then are you not willing to take the next responsbile step, both for the animals and the hobby, and figure out a reasonalble way to  deal with the offspring...both desirable, and undesirable?  Is ti really a good idea, good for the animals, and good for our hobby to send out tens if not hundreds of thousands of cheap, ugly snakes into a marketplace full of impulse buyers?


S~

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## Muze

I understand breeding snakes as feeders.  Seems like a waste to me (considering rodents are so much cheaper).  However, I cannot understand how someone can breed anything as a hobby (be it fancy mice, dogs, snakes) and cull healthy animals because they are 'ugly'.  I would not purchase from a breeder that I am aware practices culling of healthy animals.  To me this exhibits a disrespect of life in general.

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## MsPrada

I'm not a breeder, but I am an avid fan of animal welfare so I'll chime in and share my feelings. I won't argue, but debate is never unwelcome.

As far as feeding snakes to other animals, I don't have a problem. I feel like breeding rats for consumption of animals is the same as breeding cows for us to eat. Theoretically, breeding snakes to feed animals isn't that much different. I feel, however, if its an animal that eats snake in the wild or as a natural food source, thats fine. I do disagree if you are breeding snakes to feed animals that like meat but do not eat snake meat. My only feeling is that you should feed the animal its normal food source and if you can not, then do not keep it as a captive animal.

Now, moving on to ugly snakes. I am an avid believer that the aesthetics of animals, or the beauty of them, is absolutely NO reason to cull a snake, or any animal for that purpose. In my opinion you can not be 100% sure that the animal will have a bad life if someone buys it. For example, pretend there is a breeder that breeds for designer animals, BPS for example, and ends up with a bunch of normals. I, as a buyer, would buy this animal and give a good life. Just because it is 'ugly' to you does not mean it is indicative that any potential buyer, me included, would not care for it. This is almost the same logic that people that don't pay for expensive bedding will not care for their snakes the same way that someone who pays $11 for a bag of bedding will. If you are taking the initiative to breed, period, then you need to be prepared for the consequences. Every clutch is not going to be 5 designer snakes. Thus, I feel that if you are breeding you need to be prepared BEFORE you begin with a plan for the "non-designer" animals. Just like you should if you are a breeder for dogs or cats or anything. These are lives that are being made because you want to make them, hobby or for money or what. You did it, not the animal. You took the creation into your own hands because these are your animals and you had to put them together to breed. So you need to know what to do with the "unwanteds" as you call them. I just don't think there is a real 100% opportunity for you to know that "...you'd be dead wrong." for selling these snakes. I don't see how it isn't good for the hobby to find a home for an unwanted. How does this jeopardize the hobby? Isn't the hobby breeding? Isn't there many a person that says breeding should be done for the betterment of the animal? In this case producing healthy morphs that may not have existed before? So, again, I don't understand how getting rid of this normal, passing it on to someone who may or may not care for it (again, you don't know) is going to harm the breeding and passing on of the designer morphs. 

Now, I understand this is a hobby for you, not a pet, but you must still understand these are lives, rather its a pretty snake or an ugly snake. It may not be your dog for you but the ones you cull that aren't pretty may be a dog to someone else. 

Thats just my opinion. I must say, I am mainly utilitarian as far as animals go (I do believe in relationships, however, with animals) so I get that these animals do something for you. I just have to weigh the pros and the cons, and in my opinion as far as ugly animals go, the cons don't weigh out.

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BabysMomma (09-17-2009)

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## mainbutter

So when you cull snakes, they become feeders?

As long as you're not being wasteful in ending the animals life, I'm ok with your actions.

The attitude towards the hobby and your animals however is a little unfortunate.  My reptiles are both my hobby and my pets.  I care for them every bit as much as I have cared for social, cuddly, fuzzy, warm pets I have had in the past.  They are not simply living art to me.

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## MsPrada

> Why would I want to sell them off cheap, with no sayso on where they go and who cares for them, when they are, based on market value, not likely to have a high quality of life?  
> S~


I'd like to know why you would have no say so when its your animals to give, and where is your proof that low market value=low quality of life.

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## ShawnC

I, like most of you, do not LIKE to kill things.  Even feeder rodents.  Thats why I feed/cull to other critters.  Somehow it feels more natural than just killing them for no purpose, and I don't feel so bad.  I just see this is as a cradle to grave reponsibility as a breeder.  If you want to breed snakes, you are going to have to deal responsibly with ALL of the offspring...not just the ones that sell well.  Dumping them into the marketplace I think is bad from every angle.  It just sucks to cull them, so we don't do it...but I think we should.  

S~

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## Stewart_Reptiles

Personally I would rather quit breeding all together than cull healthy animals simply because they are as you called them “ugly” ……….but again that might be just me  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

There is a difference between breeding for food and doing what you are doing. You are using the breeding for food as a justification, if that make you feel better about it, good for you but what you do is not breeding for food, you are breeding and disposing of what you consider not being worth your time.

And I will add you can do whatever YOU want I am not hear to tell people what they should do with THEIR animals howeer personnally I would never support someone who does this which means no business from me.

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## monk90222

> I'd like to know why you would have no say so when its your animals to give, and where is your proof that low market value=low quality of life.


I actually think that the people that spend $20 bucks on a normal male at an expo are buying a pet. They might actually get taken better care of in the long run.

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## Denial

I know of a few people that breed snakes to feed off to king cobras and corals that they can not get to switch to rats. I see nothing wrong with that. But alot of people want to get into snakes for the get rich quick theme and then they find thereselves with 100 pythons that they can not sell. And thats just something that you need to consider before you ever put anything together to lock up.

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## JLC

It sounds like you're expecting everyone to share your philosophy on "responsible" breeding.   :Confused:   You don't want an open debate...you want to convince everyone that what you're doing is "responsible."  Sorry, though...MOST of the folks who participate here (and on sites like this one) have a lot more respect for life than that.  

You accuse them of being irresponsible because they don't choose the _cheap and easy way out_ of raising, feeding, and marketing the "undesirables" in their clutches?  Seriously???

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## ShawnC

> I'd like to know why you would have no say so when its your animals to give, and where is your proof that low market value=low quality of life.


You don't have to be a genious to figure this out.  The price of something in dollars is a fairly good indicator of how popular (wanted) something is.  I am not saying that normals don't make excellent pets, or that you should not give these animals away.  All I am saying is that flooding the marketplace with them doens't do them, or us, any good.  It's not a money thing, it's a "whats best for the animals" thing.

Any math nerds out there?  I wish I could figure this out, but I am not a math guy.  If you go back 20 years, and figure the estimated numbers of normal ball pythons that have come into the countryeach year, and still do...then add to it how many are produced each year...then figure that the average lifespan across the board should be 12 years (they can live for twice that, so to include for early death due to disease and accidents) how many balls pythons should be in the US today?  I woud guess that it's tens of Millions, if not more.   And those would be adults over 3 years old..not counting babies. 

Do you really think there are that many?  What do you think happened to them all?  They are not valued they way you and I as snake nerds value them, and they are released into the wild (HR669 fighters), neglected, or flatly killed would be my assumption.

S~

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## ShawnC

> It sounds like you're expecting everyone to share your philosophy on "responsible" breeding.    You don't want an open debate...you want to convince everyone that what you're doing is "responsible."  Sorry, though...MOST of the folks who participate here (and on sites like this one) have a lot more respect for life than that.  
> 
> You accuse them of being irresponsible because they don't choose the _cheap and easy way out_ of raising, feeding, and marketing the "undesirables" in their clutches?  Seriously???


No not at all.  I am saying don't beat me up when I am doing what I think is better for the animals and the hobby.  A debate means you guys argue your points, and I argue mine.  I am supposed to try to convince you...that my job as the debator.  

And I think the easy way is to take all your unwanted animals and blow them out for $10 to every kid who probalby wants a pythons when he's 15...but when he's 20...he can't get rid of it...then what happens?  Thats all I am saying...there is life for these animals after they leave your possesion..that doesn't make you less responsible for them...you created them.  So what happens to them begins, and ends, because of you.

S~

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OnlyOneCanoli (12-06-2012)

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## Adam_Wysocki

> it's a "whats best for the animals" thing.


On what planet is death better for a living creature than life?

Blessings,

-adam

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## twistedtails

I could swing both ways on this issue.  I understand Adam's point and I understand the OP's point.  

Pertaining to the OP post: Back when I used to keep Burms, my number one source of food was from a rabbit breeder.  Not just any rabbit breeder, she bred for show.  She felt that these animals had no worth to her if they weren't show quality(can you blame her).  She was so caught up with maintaining show quality animals that she had no time for average looking animals, as long as the animal served life in some way it was ok with her.  

As for Adams arguement: Why would you breed animals if you didn't have room in your heart for every single one of them?  I myself, have created a place in my heart for every single one of my animals.  

In conclusion, I feel that if you choose beautiful animals in the beginning, the majority of your offspring will have desireable traits.  Especially if you choose to breed animals that you like, not what others like.  You can't help but have some kind of bond with all of them.  On the other hand, if you have other animals that *NATURALLY* prey on items that you are producing, then, why not give them a treat every now and then?

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## MsPrada

> You don't have to be a genious to figure this out.  The price of something in dollars is a fairly good indicator of how popular (wanted) something is.  I am not saying that normals don't make excellent pets, or that you should not give these animals away.  All I am saying is that flooding the marketplace with them doens't do them, or us, any good.  It's not a money thing, it's a "whats best for the animals" thing.
> 
> Any math nerds out there?  I wish I could figure this out, but I am not a math guy.  If you go back 20 years, and figure the estimated numbers of normal ball pythons that have come into the country, and still do...then add to it how many are produced each year...then figure that the average lifespan across the board should be 12 years (they can live for twice that, so to include for early death due to disease and accidents) how many balls pythons should be in the US today?  I woud guess that it's tens of Millions, if not more.   And those would be adults over 3 years old..not counting babies. 
> 
> Do you really think there are that many?  What do you thinkhappens to them all?  They are not valued they way you and I as snake nerds value them, and they are let go, neglected, or flatly killed would be my assumption.
> 
> S~


Wow. Are you insinuating that my intelligence is low because I do NOT share your opinions? Because I've personally seen normals that are treated well? Again, under your logic if someone spends less on something they don't care for it as much? So, I pay $10 for a blender that does the same thing as a $50 one and I treat it like junk? Thats your logic, not mine. A normal to ME and LOTS of other people, who you apparently just don't know, does the same as a morph if its for a pet. Its a snake, its a BP, it has a great personality and is still very BEAUTIFUL, and we can pay less for it. Don't try and force your logic on me or anyone else just because you don't have the proof I asked for.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> who probalby wants a pythons when he's 15...but when he's 20...he can't get rid of it...then what happens?


Where I come from, responsible breeders let their customers know that any animal they produce is welcome back at any point. Selling animals comes with moral responsibilities and making sure that animals you produce always have a home must be at the top of the list.

You produced them, and inevitably you're responsible for their lives ... forever.

Blessings,

-adam

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## JLC

> No not at all.  I am saying don't beat me up when I am doing what I think is better for the animals and the hobby.  A debate means you guys argue your points, and I argue mine.  I am supposed to try to convince you...that my job as the debator.  
> 
> And I think the easy way is to take all your unwanted animals and blow them out for $10 to every kid who probalby wants a pythons when he's 15...but when he's 20...he can't get rid of it...then what happens?  Thats all I am saying...there is life for these animals after they leave your possesion..that doesn't make you less responsible for them...you created them.  So what happens to them begins, and ends, because of you.
> 
> S~


Fair enough.  

I think your argument about the possibility of an animal ending up unwanted and therefore is better off dead is completely illogical, though.  And given all you've said so far, my impression is not of someone truly trying to figure out what is best for the animals or for the "industry"...but someone trying to justify his own lazy choices in dealing with extra babies.  

If you feel that strongly that death is preferable to a chance at life as a pet in someone's home, then maybe you shouldn't be producing any at all?  ALL the animals you produce and allow out of your own personal sphere of responsibility are now at risk for being neglected, abused, and abandoned.  How "pretty" you judge one animal to be over another has very little to do with those chances.  People spend lots of money on expensive toys all the time and then neglect and abandon them when they get bored with them.  Why should your "pretty" snakes be any different?  Why should they not just get put down for no other reason than that they were born at your direction???

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## MsPrada

> Where I come from, responsible breeders let their customers know that any animal they produce is welcome back at any point. Selling animals comes with moral responsibilities and making sure that animals you produce always have a home must be at the top of the list.
> 
> You produced them, and inevitably you're responsible for their lives ... forever.
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> -adam


x2. I know dog breeders that do the same. You can't keep it, you can bring it back. The person I got my NORMAL from had a customer that went into the armed forces and she took the snake back and found a new home and a new caretaker, I.E me.

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## ShawnC

I was not trying to insult you at all.  It's a fairly simple concept, thats the only point I was making.  I don't think I singled you out unfairly, but since you brought up the question, it's fair to answer it.  

S~

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## MsPrada

However, you didn't answer it. I asked for proof, of which you offered none. Thus, it is not as simple a concept as you believe.

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## ShawnC

[QUOTE=JLC;1163080]Fair enough.  

I think your argument about the possibility of an animal ending up unwanted and therefore is better off dead is completely illogical, though.  And given all you've said so far, my impression is not of someone truly trying to figure out what is best for the animals or for the "industry"...but someone trying to justify his own lazy choices in dealing with extra babies.  
QUOTE]


I guess my response to this would be that I have seen my animals in other peoples care, and the ones that I am most unhappy about, are always the ones that they value the least ie normals or non-pet snakes.  So unhappy that I feel badly for having sold them in the first place.  The answer to this would be to keep them all, but thats unreasonable, as I can't do that.  Most people, espcially big breeders, can't do that.

I have to take my kid to baseball.  I'll be back in a couple of hours.  Thank you all for hashing this out with me.  I appreciate the discussion.  8-)

S~

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## ShawnC

> However, you didn't answer it. I asked for proof, of which you offered none. Thus, it is not as simple a concept as you believe.



I did answer it.  Price is an excellent indicator of perceived value.  Thats your answer.  When you can't sell a snake for $30...that should tell you something...especially if you have 100 of them.

S~

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## p3titexburial

Not taking any sides here--but you know we do the whole "culling un-beautiful things" often. The ugly carrots go to the rabbits, for the ones who do breed their mice/rats as feeders en mass and keep a few as pets will usually keep the cutest/the ones worth more. Really, when it comes down to it, all life are equal--what would be the difference between eating a dog vs. a goat? After all, both are animals that can be used and raised for that purpose.

However unfair it may be, we do place value on certain things over others. I think it's up to the breeder to decide what they want to do. As long as it's humane, and no one tries to force this practice onto anyone else (or vice versa forcibly stop this practice) then there really wouldn't be an argument to begin with. I love snakes but I don't condemn people who eat them. Similarly, people who love chickens or bunnies usually don't condemn those who eat them as well.

I'm sure people who keep goats and who love goats as pets are mortified when they see it sold for food. Cows, horses, etc. How is it any different than when we're mortified to hear people eat snakes/other pet species?

Everything's a choice, we choose to keep snakes and therefore take on the burden that we must kill and feed them mice.  

Unfortunately, it can get extremely out of hand, as only in the history of humanity has any one species decided to destroy or place value on another simply out of personal prejudice.

In any case, no matter which way the wind blows, this sort of inequality exists whether we like it or not. There's no clear cut answer or solution, if there was one to begin with at all.

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_Seneschal_ (09-18-2009)

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## MsPrada

I stand by what I said, as of right now it seems as if you are dodging the asked for proof because you have none, thus your logic is not sound. As you said "your job is to convince us" and its not going to work without proof.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> life for these animals after they leave your possesion..that doesn't make you less responsible for them...you created them.  So what happens to them begins, and ends, because of you.


Best option than is not to breed at all because regardless of the paint job and/or the value of the animal once the animal is sold you no longer have control of what happen to the said animal.
If you think that because an animal is expensive he will not get dumped or neglected than think again.

If the excuse is to cull animals so they do not become "victims" than why not cull the more expensive ones?.........................Double standard because of the time and money involved? 

Do you seriously think that someone buying an albino will not abandoned it or neglect if he no longer has interest in it in 5 or 10 years?

So what do we do?

A/ Cull them all 
B/ Stop breeding them
C/ Have a little faith in people and give animals a chance

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_Jyson_ (09-18-2009)

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## Adam_Wysocki

> I'm sure people who keep goats and who love goats as pets are mortified when they see it sold for food.


I would offer that there's a huge difference between animals that are produced to feed people (and other animals) and animals that are killed for no other reason than that they're a financial burden to the breeder.

The former is called farming ... the latter is called unethical.

I understand that killing for the sake of a balance sheet is done in our society, but to get on a message board and try and convince people that it's being done for "the good of the hobby" just sickens me. Call it what it is and move on.

-adam

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## MsPrada

> Similarly, people who love chickens or bunnies usually don't condemn those who eat them as well.


Yes they do, most of the time. I.E the horse slaughter act. People who love horses condemned eating them so much that laws are now passed that have millions of unwanted horses suffering in the US.

I do have to say however, that the rat breeder knows that the rats are being bred for food, thus the ones she/he does not keep are not being produced uselessly. Also, our disagreement with this person is not that he thinks normals are ugly or anything, but that he is producing them and culling them without giving them a chance for a life or finding a use for them. He feeds some off, but overall anything that is not pretty and does not get fed off is just killed uselessly. 

As far as it being humane, I don't believe it was stated how the OP culls off animals that aren't fed. Also, it depends on the accepted def. of humane. To some it means that what happens happens for a purpose, ie killing animals for food or for a religious ceremony. Does culling animals for looks fall under humane? Thats for each and every individual to answer. 

And as far as I know, coming from the dog breeding community, animals that are not suitable for the purpose (show animals etc) are found homes and papers are signed to keep breeding from happening. Thus, while this inequality does exist, there is a sort of "golden" rule on how to handle it and keep it to a minimum. 

I just dont see how anyone can believe this is ok and believe we can't kill orphaned children because they are ugly and might not find a good home...

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## Raptor

;D Send me a rack and I'll take those normals off your hands.

I'm on the fence with this. I can, to a degree understand where this guy comes from. I breed goats. They're great animals. Smart, cute, and downright hilarious animals. However, I can't keep all of them and the ones that don't meet my requirements for breeding/registering has to go somewhere. Either into my freezer, or to the sale barn where they still might go to the freezer. Obviously, the animals born with defects should be culled with the idea that the issue could be passed on.

Despite how much I love my goats, if someone who owned a large snake came up to me and wanted a goat for his snake, all I'd need is the size. Chances are, I have a cull that'd fit (obviously, goat would need to be dehorned first for the safety of the snake, but that's beside the issue). I don't know. I'm fairly neutral on the issue. Like I said, I can see both sides of the argument.

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## p3titexburial

Oh dear, let me be a bit more precise. I think people are reading a little too into what the person might or might not be feeling and that's an assumption that will cause a lot of problems and twist this into something else.

As you said, with the horse slaughter act, horses that can't be sold off, are undesirable, etc, are now suffering simply because we are not allowed to eat them. It goes the same with dogs and cats--the hundreds of millions of strays/unwanted animals in shelters where they will be euthanized or dying on the street or even locked in someone's basement. Where is their justice? So what do you do? How does anyone solve this problem?

Of course it's easier to say then just don't breed them but in practice it won't ever stop. 

When I said humane, I mean generally as a whole on HOW an animal is euthanized. Not whether the entire issue is ethical or not.

Yup, it's done in practice with other animals, but I find it contradictory to turn a blind eye on that and only choose the sides of the coins we want to see. We seem to think, to some degree at least, if the animal is usually used for food it's alright (but isn't in some cases, like the goats.) We feel less guilty because we think they had an original purpose--but there is little difference in technicality.

There are always exceptions and I see no reason to have anyone say whether what he's doing is "right" or "wrong" when there is no such line to begin with.

We as people place a lot of value on the fact our actions don't make us monsters, our reasons do. But when it comes down to it, the consequences end up being the same.

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## West Coast Jungle

To me beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I know people with normals that  care more for their snakes then folks with double/triple co-doms. Why? One is a pet and the other is a $.

The assumption that what does not have value to one also does not have value to others is not necessarily correct and the flaw (IMO) with the OPs perspective.

There will always be animals in captivity that are not cared for correctly. That is just a fact of life. You must also remember in their natural setting 80-90%(generous %) of these animals will starve, suffer, die and never make it to adulthood, that is also a fact of life, nature is giving them that chance and you are not even though the odds in captivity are much more in their favor.

Assuming in captivity they will suffer needlessly so kill it first is assuming quite alot (and something you cant take back). In my opinion they are much better served giving them the opportunity then culling then based on what you assume is a pre-destined fate. 

I started keeping reptiles when I was just a boy in the 1970's. Back then husbandry knowledge was horrible and yes many animals died and suffered but looking back at the big picture, we learned ALOT from those mistakes. Today husbandry knowledge is WAY better, we share that knowledge online and the hobby has grown 100 fold. So what some may have percieved as senseless suffering of these poor animals in the long run was actually their salvation and a blessing to an exponetially larger amount of animals then anyone would ever have imagined.

Dont assume fate, create it!

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_scutechute_ (09-19-2009)

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## ShawnC

> He feeds some off, but overall anything that is not pretty and does not get fed off is just killed uselessly. 
> 
> As far as it being humane, I don't believe it was stated how the OP culls off animals that aren't fed.


I have 5 mins from home to post this, then I won't be back for a while.

Please dont' mis-state what I said.  When I choose to cull something, it gets fed to my Monitors lizard...A Blackthroat, or it gets fed to an arrowanna.  Everything that I decide is just better to cull is used as food in my snake room.  The end.  I don't just stomp on things heads when i deem them useless.  They have a purpose in the circle of life.  Their purpose just isn't to be sold to the masses for cheap.  As tends to happen, people are reading into what I am saying, but not reading WHAT I am saying.

S~

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## Eventide

I can see several different sides of this, though I agree with what most people are saying here.

Feeding snakes to other animals that eat/like to eat snakes seems fine to me.  Not in the context of the OP (because they're unwanted), however.  I would feel really bad about it, but that's why I'd never keep an animal that eats snakes....

I also understand the OP's argument that if something costs less, it probably isn't going to be cared as much as something that costs more.  It isn't absolute--i.e. it doesn't always happen--but it's pretty common.  That $300 iPhone is going to get a whole lot more protection from the rain you're running through than your $20 calculator.  I would never say this is always the case, but I would say that the majority of the time, this is how people treat things.  (A good example of this not always being the case is my first snake, which was a normal ball python.  She is still my favorite, even though I have since paid over $500 for some of my morphs.  They all get the same care no matter their price.)

Snakes and lizards are my cats and dogs.  I've cried my heart out at every leopard gecko I've lost, no matter how dumb I felt for crying over a little gecko in front of my vet and everyone in the lobby.  They're my family.  There is no way I would ever cull a healthy, normal/ugly animal.  For one, my idea of ugly is probably vastly different than anyone else's idea of ugly.  Even some combo morphs I find ugly, but I'm not going to cull it just because I think it's ugly.  

Also, producing "unwanted" animals (ugly, normal, whatever) is part of the hobby.  If one is going to be in a hobby like this, then one needs to take full responsibility for all the little lives we create.

I've thought about this a lot ever since I decided I wanted to breed ball pythons, and here's what I came up with for dealing with the "problem" of lots of normals.

1.  Selling the normals online, like the rest of my animals, increases the chance of them going to good homes.  If someone is willing to spend $50 to ship a $30 male ball python, then they're probably going to take care of it.  (I can also screen people I don't think will take good care of them if need be.)

2.  My breeding plans include producing the fewest amount of normals possible.  My first clutch will probably be a co-dom x normal, but after that, I would like to rarely (if ever) do more crosses like that.  A 50% normal fraction is too high for me.  If I want do reduce the amount of normals I have to sell, then I will reduce the fraction of normals I should get by crossing recessives/combos instead of base morphs crossed with normals.

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_Seneschal_ (09-18-2009)

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## Adam_Wysocki

> It goes the same with dogs and cats--the hundreds of millions of strays/unwanted animals in shelters where they will be euthanized


Actually it's not hundreds of millions, it's about 4-5 million.

That said, I have the same problem with people who choose to kill healthy adoptable animals in shelters each year that I do with the OP. 

Too many shelters are killing healthy kittens, puppies, dogs, and cats and blaming pet overpopulation and the so-called irresponsible public for doing so. 

The reality is that 17 million households will bring home new dogs and/or cats next year and 4-5 million healthy dogs and cats will be killed in shelters. Killed because most shelters are only open from 9-5 when people are at work. Closed on holidays and Sundays and only open a handful of hours on Saturdays when people are available to come adopt. They have requirements for adoption that exclude many families such as fenced in yards, no apartments, all family members present before they'll adopt animals out, and fees that are sometimes on par with or higher than local breeders. Many shelters refuse to work with rescues, limit volunteer responsibilities, and run minimal foster programs if even at all. They run 1 or 2 off-site adoption events per month while at they same time they are often located in the worst parts of town or remote locations away from where people shop and commute.

The point is that animals deserve life and it's much easier to point a finger and make an excuse for giving that animal the hot needle or feeding it off to a lizard than it is to actually do the work necessary to preserve that life. Because there's no doubt about it, it takes work to not kill ... killing is the easy way out. But I believe that anything less than doing that work and ensuring 100% that those animals live versus dying for some arbitrary excuse is morally corrupt.

Blessings,

-adam

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_Ash_ (09-18-2009),_jglass38_ (09-17-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),MsPrada (09-17-2009),Muze (09-17-2009)

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## ShawnC

> Actually it's not hundreds of millions, it's about 4-5 million.
> 
> The point is that animals deserve life and it's much easier to point a finger and make an excuse for giving that animal the hot needle or feeding it off to a lizard than it is to actually do the work necessary to preserve that life. Because there's no doubt about it, it takes work to not kill ... killing is the easy way out. But I believe that anything less than doing that work and ensuring 100% that those animals live versus dying for some arbitrary excuse is morally corrupt.
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> -adam


And for most of us as breeders, the work part comes when we take all of our undesirable animals and wholesale them in a lot to jobber for a tidy profit correct?  Thats what most...not all..but most of us do with them.  

Doesn't that make us alot like a puppy mill?  We are the guys who are providing tons of new animals each year, when there are already more out there than thier needs to be.  Thats kinda my point.

You are making it sound like we are all this noble group who makes sure our less than valuable animals find great homes...but thats not what we do.  We blow them out the door, and it's no longer our problem.  I think thats the part we needs to work on.  We either stop breeding...which we probably wont' do because we love it, or we find other ways to deal with those offspring.  I feed mine off, and I think thats a perfectly natural, ethical way to deal with it.

S~

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## mechnut450

I not read the entire topic (all the post) but I canunderstand the point  in the main post )  some animals will  end up  dying  do to the fact that asome people consider the snake  a thorw away pet.  The same can me said about cats and dogs.    It  can be a more humane  to kill a snake ( mutli snakes)   if the  chance is htey gonig ot end up in a wholeseller  price sheet for  the places like petco and such that don't givea rat's rear   if the snake makes it past their  7 day ganutee(spelling?? )   I should know how easy some people toss the snakes,  My collection of 21 snakes I have only purchased 7 of the snakes  the rest have come into my keep by people that lost interest in them.

I know that some never make it to a better provider( caregiver)and end up dying by the old farm way of a shovel to the head( sorry for the sicking  image).  I also get request to take in about 100 iguanas in a given year from people that no longer want them.  I have found homes for some  some have  died in my care due to the fact they were too far gone  by the time I gotten them.   

I seen people that were given up their snake to me, in  all kinds of shape  from  nice and healthy ( just lost th interest in them ) all the way ot some of the horror story we all ready about ( mutli  sheds, large pool amounts (out weighting the snakes)   and all kinds of  other issues.

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## p3titexburial

Unfortunately though, not everyone wants a shelter animal and an older one at that--including the fact that many of those 4-5 mil (whoops, I was going with hundreds of thousands and realized that was wrong and put in million. Brain fart.) will be grown animals--the ones that aren't adopted (or euthanized) will add onto the next year and the next year and so on. What happens then?

I'd prefer they screen potential owners as well. I do agree that yes, while killing is the easy way out and it isn't the *only* way out but what about people who adopt animals without caring properly for them, where they die of neglect more than anything else? We're digressing, but the point is there's no easy solution no matter what the plan is. 

Everyone has their own reasons and their own set of values, and it's really not up to us to say that anyone is sick or morally corrupt. What we think is acceptable for one thing may be taboo for someone else.

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## JLC

They are the OP's animals...and he can do with them as he chooses, so long as it is legal.  I respect his frankness with regards to his practice.  I'm sure there are other breeders out there who do things with their animals that we would find distasteful or even abhorrent, but they wouldn't dare admit it so openly. 

But the OP DID bring it up...and challenged folks to debate and discuss...and therefore, I feel perfectly free to make my feelings known about what I think of his practices.  

The world is filled with back yard breeders and puppy mills and and greedy snake breeders....most of whom operate within the bounds of the law...even if just barely.  That doesn't make what they do right.  And just because some people do that doesn't mean the rest of us should throw up our hands and say, "Oh well...world sucks, so why bother trying to do the right thing with my own animals?"  

So yeah...the guy can do whatever he wants with his animals.  But you can be darned sure that he won't ever make a sale to me, or to just about anyone I know.  All I can do is be responsible for my own animals....AND I can make responsible, educated choices about who I choose to give my money to.

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_bigballs_ (09-17-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-17-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-17-2009),dr del (09-17-2009),h00blah (09-18-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009),Muze (09-17-2009)

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## Muze

As I am reading the latest responses in this thread, I am cuddling my 'ugly' dog, Molly.  She is not a beauty.  Legs too long for her body, ears that are too short for her head.  She is a mixed breed dog that most would not find pretty.  And the thought that someone could have decided that she was too ugly to live and fed them to their pet retic or gator is horrible.  Yet Molly has lived a pretty good life with me for over 11 years now...hmmm...I know that is not the case for every dog like her, but it's a good enough reason for me to believe that culling healthy animals is ridiculous.

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## catawhat75

> And for most of us as breeders, the work part comes when we take all of our undesirable animals and wholesale them in a lot to jobber for a tidy profit correct?  That's what most...not all..but most of us do with them.  
> 
> Doesn't that make us alot like a puppy mill?  We are the guys who are providing tons of new animals each year, when there are already more out there than their needs to be.  Thats kinda my point.
> 
> You are making it sound like we are all this noble group who makes sure our less than valuable animals find great homes...but thats not what we do.  We blow them out the door, and it's no longer our problem.  I think thats the part we needs to work on.  We either stop breeding...which we probably wont' do because we love it, or we find other ways to deal with those offspring.  I feed mine off, and I think thats a perfectly natural, ethical way to deal with it.
> 
> S~



Speak for yourself and please don't speak for me (or likely, the VAST majority of members). I do not see normals or the "not pretty ones" as undesirable. I do not sell to jobbers, I do not cull healthy animals. If an animal doesn't sell, I keep it and care for it as I do for all others. What bothers me is the attitude, not the actions. 

I think the majority of breeders on this site DO make sure a knowledgeable home is provided, or offer to help. I know I do. There is a reason I frequent this board and the breeders here- their actions speak volumes to me. 

Judy, I couldn't have said it better, I know who I won't even think about buying from!

Adam, you know I adore you and agree on many points you made about shelters but I think that is one subject I will shy away from discussing with you!

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_Hulihzack_ (09-17-2009),_jglass38_ (09-17-2009)

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## Hulihzack

Thanks Judy and Adam, couldn't agree more.

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## jglass38

> Speak for yourself and please don't speak for me (or likely, the VAST majority of members). I do not see normals or the "not pretty ones" as undesirable. I do not sell to jobbers, I do not cull healthy animals. If an animal doesn't sell, I keep it and care for it as I do for all others. What bothers me is the attitude, not the actions. 
> 
> I think the majority of breeders on this site DO make sure a knowledgeable home is provided, or offer to help. I know I do. There is a reason I frequent this board and the breeders here- their actions speak volumes to me. 
> 
> Judy, I couldn't have said it better, I know who I won't even think about buying from!
> 
> Adam, you know I adore you and agree on many points you made about shelters but I think that is one subject I will shy away from discussing with you!



Thanks for posting this.  I couldn't agree more and definitely couldn't have articulated it as well.   :Good Job:

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_catawhat75_ (09-17-2009)

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## Raptor

> but it's a good enough reason for me to believe that culling healthy animals is ridiculous.


If you're trying to better a breed, culling healthy animals is needed. Not all of them are breeding quality. Three examples of culls that I have personally dealt with:

Chocolate: Had trouble standing up at birth and required a lot of help. Once he got over this, he was fine, was always a bit slow, but otherwise, decently healthy. He's still the same size that he was at about five months old. He was castrated due to being a low percentage and the issues that he had as a kid. The qualities he had at birth plus his extremely slow growth rate makes him a poor choice for breeding stock since he's a meat breed.

Fort: Always great, no issues whatsoever. Very independent, never sick. Castrated due to us not know his sire, and his small size. Also not good breeding stock, mainly due to his unknown pedigree (we unknowingly bought his dam pregnant).

Freezer: Never sick, very active. Aggressive and pushy. Castrated due to his low percentage, but mainly due to his aggressiveness. An aggressive male is not a good thing especially when they get massive horns and up to 200+ pounds.

The three above could have easily been kept intact and sold off as commercial sires. Would they have produced good offspring? Very unlikely. I'd also like to say that I don't show or anything.

As I said before. I'm neutral on the subject. I have no issue with owning animals and using them for food (goats, chickens), nor with raising animals that will eventually be fed to something else (mice). With breeding a large amount of animals, you're going to get undesirables/ones that just won't sell.

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## ShawnC

> Speak for yourself and please don't speak for me (or likely, the VAST majority of members). I do not see normals or the "not pretty ones" as undesirable. I do not sell to jobbers, If an animal doesn't sell, I keep it and care for it as I do for all others. What bothers me is the attitude, not the actions.


Then you would be a minority.  Mostlarge scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims.  I have been around a very long time.  There are no absolutes of course.




> I think the majority of breeders on this site DO make sure a knowledgeable home is provided, or offer to help. I know I do. There is a reason I frequent this board and the breeders here- their actions speak volumes to me.


Not if they produce a large number of animals they don't.  It's impossible, or next to impossible to do.  This is your opinion, but has no basis in fact in my opinion.  This is also why they do not comment on this thread...they have an image to uphold or it hurts sales.  Thats the facts.  I am one of those guys, I am just not afraid to tell the truth.

For years I kept my mouth shut, but I think it's time we be honest with ourselves.  It's patently foolish for us to act like a bunch of saints while the Govt. is trying to take our rights away as keepers and breeders when we won't be honest about whats going on, and how we don't deal with it.  Oh we can write letters, and complain, and call congressmen, but when it comes to taking real responsibility, we stop short.  I am not talking about all the folks that have a few clutches per year (although together you add up) I am talking about the guys who create hundreds or thousands of animals that their just isn't a market for.  They dont' do this on purpose...it's an unfortunate side effect of producing the animals we are trying to make...morph crosses etc.   You cannot send that many animals out into the world without there being an impact on the animals well being, and the well being of the hobby.  Dislike my points all you want, but they have merit, and warrant discussion.   Turning some of them into feeder animals is an extremely useful, ethical, and sound way to help your own hobby out.

And I hear you that some ugly ducklings become beloved pets.  I have owned my fair share of them over the years.  But now I think that, how many animals have suffered, and for how long, for that one that had a good life?  I suspect it's a scary high number.  With reptiles even more so.  Reptiles are much more disposable than a dog or a cat.  And there are far few too reptile rescues.

It's very easy to say you love yoru pets and you would never do such a terrible thing.  Thats also the easiest thing to do.  Sometimes the best, or right thing to do, isn't always the easiest.  Keep in mind, I know I came to a reptile forum to discuss this, but it's because I want their to be a voice out there for something other than mass production under the guise of "we love our snakes".  The two don't mix well, especially right now when we are under fire from all sides.

S~

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justind (09-17-2009)

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## jglass38

Shawn,

Who are you?  You seem to want to speak for the large breeders.  How many animals do you produce per year?  Has anyone heard of you?  Do you even know any of the big breeders?  Just curious as I think it is relevant to this thread.

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## rabernet

I don't believe for one minute that just because something has little to no monetary value that it won't be well taken care of. I'm giving two normal males to a local couple that just spent a nice tidy sum of money with Reptile Basics to get two heat mats, two thermostats, have called me every step of the way of setting up their enclosures, have come to my home to pick out their new babies, who are still here while they make sure that the enclosures have the proper temps and humidity dialed, who asked me if I would be willing to come to their home to check out their enclosures BEFORE they bring their babies home, are already considering breeding their own feeders on a small scale to ensure that they can control their prey quality. 

They first asked to come to my home to see the snakes to make SURE that they were ready to make the commitment to providing a forever home to a single snake and fell so in love with them are adopting two of them. 

Every single normal male I have produced, I have placed in free pet homes, and I screened each home as best that I could. I asked very pointed questions about housing, experience, and if they had no experience, pointed them to sites and caresheets to help them get started BEFORE they took their new pets home. 

Last year, one family adopted four normal males, one for each of their children, write to me to this day about how much they love their males, how devoted the entire family is to each one of them. They still send me pictures. 

Another normal male just went to a young gal who has been researching and looking for a YEAR for the right normal male ball python, had already purchased all the necessary equipment and is completely in love with her little guy. 

Yeah, I think my average normal males have it pretty good, at least better than in the belly of another animal because they weren't "pretty" enough or were "just" normal males.

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_catawhat75_ (09-17-2009),_jglass38_ (09-17-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009)

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## ShawnC

Not sure what to say here.  I am nearly 40, and have had reptiles my entire life since I was a kid in Florida.  In the past several years, my life has gotten so that I can afford more reptiles, and in that time, I have built one of the most comprehensive collections of Carpet Pythons(my favorite pythons) and their mutations in the world.  I also have been building a very nice collection of represetative animals of every python type in Austalia, with the exception of Oenpelli, Roughscale, and Darwin Carpets.  I produce upwards of 300 carpet pythons babies per year, and have this year, expanded into ball pythons.  I also happen to own (but I didn't found) a fairly wel known carpet python website which I will not link here, as it's not my place.  I am not bragging...I wasn't going to bring any of this up, but you asked.

I should point out to those who are not familiar with carpets that it's a difficult species to work with because many of the morphs are in different subspieces, so in order to cross them, you make hybrid "normal" offspring.  In essence...Mutts.  Rather than just send them into the world, muddying up the gene pool further and creating animals that are nothing other than pet quality snakes...I tend to take the ones I don't think will be very nice looking, and I feed them to a Lizard so they don't go out and become giant ugly brown snakes that noone wants, which is where this discussion comes from.  I got a very similar reaction on my own forum, and I though it might be fun to discuss it on a larger venue, and see what everyone else thinks.  Thank you all again BTW for making this a positive experience.

S~

----------


## WingedWolfPsion

My 2 cents, as I just spotted this thread:

Normal ball pythons are in high demand in the pet trade.  Morphs are in virtually 0 demand in the pet trade.  By providing quality (by which I mean healthy) normal ball pythons to the pet trade, we may potentially be reducing the demand for CH or wild caught ball pythons, which is desirable.

I have no sympathy for the notion that ugly snakes should be culled...in part because I think they are NOT ugly.  Normal ball pythons, for example, are beautiful animals.  I sell my normal males to a local pet store for a fair price--it's above wholesale.  The rest I sell to individuals locally as pets.  I have no problem selling my normal ball pythons.  Once I am producing very large numbers of them, of course I will have to sell them wholesale, instead, but they'll wind up in the hands of individuals who want them for pets.

Ball pythons don't breed like rats.  There is no good purpose served in culling them, it's just a waste of life.

----------


## ShawnC

> Every single normal male I have produced, I have placed in free pet homes, and I screened each home as best that I could. I asked very pointed questions about housing, experience, and if they had no experience, pointed them to sites and caresheets to help them get started BEFORE they took their new pets home.


I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true.  Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar, but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.

And even so, the point still remains.  I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.

S~

----------


## ShawnC

Seperately, I wanted to reiterate again, that I am not saying noone should ever produce normals and or other than top notch animals.  All I am saying is that it's ethically OK to use them, when you have too many, as a food animal for other species.  I think this is also good for the hobby as a whole, as it keeps there from being so many of these animals out there that noone really wanted, or intended, to make.  Most of the normal balls and Mutts carpets produced are the results of Morph crossings.  When there are too many, you are not obligated to sell them off.  It's better for the hobby if you don't IMHO.  There are already tons of them out there.

There is a demand for any animal at the right price, but the lower the price gets, the more disposable the animal becomes.  This is a fact...again...there are no absolutes.

S~

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## wilomn

> I should point out to those who are not familiar with carpets that it's a difficult species to work with because many of the morphs are in different subspieces, so in order to cross them, you make hybrid "normal" offspring.  In essence...Mutts.  Rather than just send them into the world, muddying up the gene pool further and creating animals that are nothing other than pet quality snakes...I tend to take the ones I don't think will be very nice looking, and I feed them to a Lizard so they don't go out and become giant ugly brown snakes that noone wants, which is where this discussion comes from.  I got a very similar reaction on my own forum, and I though it might be fun to discuss it on a larger venue, and see what everyone else thinks.  Thank you all again BTW for making this a positive experience.
> 
> S~


This is entirely different than culling because you have too many.

If you're working towards a goal and producing animals that do not contribute to that goal AND, here's the key, you don't want anyone else working with them muddying up what you're doing, then culling is the way to deal with your babies that don't fit the criteria you use for future breeders.

I personally don't have a problem with you feeding snakes to whatever will eat them, but I do think you're either confused yourself or just don't want to be totally totally honest.

You're culling to make what you want. That's cool. But why are you making what you want? Is it for the sheer joy of putting two snakes together to see what you get or is there a profit motive?

I can't see any way to validate your assumption that your ugly babies would suffer and die. They might. They might not. No one knows but you have decided they will be better off dead, without either total clarity or honesty, and feed them off.

Freeze em, feed em, give them away but be honest about why you're doing it. It really seems like you're trying to justify your "honesty" but not being honest with yourself, and thereby us, about why.

----------

MikeCurtin (09-22-2009),_mooingtricycle_ (09-20-2009)

----------


## wilomn

> There is a demand for any animal at the right price, but the lower the price gets, the more disposable the animal becomes.  This is a fact...again...there are no absolutes.
> 
> S~


This statement is invalid.

If there are no absolutes, then any facts are suspect.

You can't have it both ways in this situation.

----------


## wilomn

> I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.
> 
> S~


If Robin said she did, she does. Count on it. 

You make MANY assumptions. A theory based on an unproven assumption, which you are in no way trying to prove or disprove, is worthless.

----------

_catawhat75_ (09-17-2009),dr del (09-17-2009),_jglass38_ (09-17-2009),JLC (09-17-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),rabernet (09-17-2009),_Spaniard_ (09-17-2009),_waltah!_ (09-17-2009)

----------


## waltah!

> I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true.  Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar, but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.
> 
> And even so, the point still remains.  I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.
> 
> S~


I on the other hand, I don't doubt it for a second. You are right.....you don't know her.

----------

dr del (09-17-2009),rabernet (09-17-2009)

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## rabernet

> I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, but I seriously doubt the above to be true.  Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar, but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.
> 
> And even so, the point still remains.  I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.
> 
> S~


Stating that you seriously doubt it to be true IS calling me a liar. 

I'd bet within two years all of them will be continuing to thrive in the homes of the people I placed them with. Why? Because they all contact me from time to time to give me updates on their animals. They are beloved pets for them. AND, they know that I'll take them back if they ever find they can't or no longer wish to care for them. 

That's how I choose to run my small hobby business, and I won't produce a huge number of animals just because I can. I also happen to believe selective breeding is the future of ball pythons. Therefore, I may have some females ready to go, but they don't fit into that year's plans, because I don't think they compliment what I'm striving towards. Good for me, they get another year of maturity and growth until I'm ready to use them in a different project. 

Some of the animals that I produce may not have monetary value, but their lives hold GREAT value to me. I have turned down more homes than I've accepted for my normal males. I keep most of my normal females, and those I let go, so far have gone to other breeders that I know personally.  

Some of us really DO do this for the love of the animals and not the love of the dollar.

----------

_catawhat75_ (09-17-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-17-2009),dr del (09-17-2009),_Eventide_ (09-17-2009),Nae (09-18-2009)

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## waltah!

> And even so, the point still remains.  I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.
> 
> S~


I'm glad to see that you have so much faith in customers (and potential customers) to think that they can't keep an animal alive for 2 yrs. I'm assuming you don't sell any animals that you "like the looks of" as they only stand a 50% chance of making it.

----------


## ShawnC

> This is entirely different than culling because you have too many.
> 
> If you're working towards a goal and producing animals that do not contribute to that goal AND, here's the key, you don't want anyone else working with them muddying up what you're doing, then culling is the way to deal with your babies that don't fit the criteria you use for future breeders.
> 
> I personally don't have a problem with you feeding snakes to whatever will eat them, but I do think you're either confused yourself or just don't want to be totally totally honest.
> 
> You're culling to make what you want. That's cool. But why are you making what you want? Is it for the sheer joy of putting two snakes together to see what you get or is there a profit motive?
> 
> I can't see any way to validate your assumption that your ugly babies would suffer and die. They might. They might not. No one knows but you have decided they will be better off dead, without either total clarity or honesty, and feed them off.
> ...


I honestly don't understand what you are saying here.  How am I being dishonest exactly?  I am not being a smartass...I really don't get what you are saying.

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## Beardedragon

How about you just selectively breed the best quality animals and do not expect to produce "ugly" animals? If your truly that worried about not being able to sell normals, breed everything with recessives or supers.

----------


## ShawnC

> This statement is invalid.
> 
> If there are no absolutes, then any facts are suspect.
> 
> You can't have it both ways in this situation.


Of course you can.  It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care.  There are no absolutes means that there are always exceptions...but a minority of exceptions does not negate the rule.

S~

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## rabernet

I also want to add, I have a local pet store practically begging me for my "throw-away" normals. Because he has referred to them as "throw-aways", none of my animals will ever be offered in his store. I just simply tell him that I don't have any throw-away animals. 

Besides which, I DO enjoy taking the time to put that first ball python into the home of a new keeper and paying it forward to them with a nice, healthy, feeding animal vs. a Petco or Petsmart animal for $80, that may or may not feed for them, that may or may not have internal parasites, because they are farmed animals. 

I get great joy in sharing my love for these magnificent creatures with someone just starting out. My hobby started with one "ugly" normal male ball python who will always have a home in my collection until the day he dies (of a natural long life, I might add). 

I'd say that more than half of those homes where my normals have gone, are currently on my waiting list for their first morph.

----------

_Ginevive_ (09-20-2009)

----------


## rabernet

> Of course you can.  It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care.  There are no absolutes means that there are always exceptions...but a minority of exceptions does not negate the rule.
> 
> S~


Do you have ANY data that backs up your claims? So, because someone paid nothing for one of my normal males, (but spent well over $100 in purchases to set up their animal), it's less likely to be properly cared for? I would almost be willing to take an infraction to call cow manure!

----------

_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),_waltah!_ (09-17-2009)

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## wilomn

It seems, from what you have written, which is somewhat confusing, that you have two trains of thought. 

On the one hand, you say feeding your babies for food is ethical. No problem, I can see that.

To the left however, you say it is good for the breed, ie you the breeder who makes money off the morphs he sells, and is better for the snakes which is a baseless assumption.

If you're not confused, and I don't mean to insult you, you're either a good liar or you don't know yourself as well as you think.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

> And even so, the point still remains.  I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.


And what make you so sure that higher end animals those that you deem deserving of a second chance  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  (I mean those worth your time because they make money) wont be dead in 2 years also? 

If you were truly so concern about the future of your animals, don't you thinl you should worry about the other too? Do you seriously thing that because they are pretty or more expensive they cannot be abused, abandonned or die?

You can try to justify it all you want, whether it's the breeding for food, or you saving them from an atrocious future  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): , you are simply killing those animals because they are "ugly" not worthy or your time and might take longer to sell...................... it's that simple.

And don't get me wrong you can do what you want with your animals but at least be honest with yourself and the reason why you are really doing what you are doing.

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_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),_waltah!_ (09-17-2009)

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## ShawnC

> If Robin said she did, she does. Count on it. 
> 
> You make MANY assumptions. A theory based on an unproven assumption, which you are in no way trying to prove or disprove, is worthless.


And you speak in vagueries to sound intellegent.  Start naming the assumptions, and I'll explain why I think this way, and why I think it's good or bad for the hobby.

S~

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## JLC

> ...there are no absolutes.
> 
> S~


Absolutely. 

 :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## wilomn

> And you speak in vagueries to sound intellegent.  Start naming the assumptions, and I'll explain why I think this way, and why I think it's good or bad for the hobby.
> 
> S~


Sorry dude, that wouldn't further my need to "sound intelligent" nor would it enable you to be honest with yourself, be that by admitting you are solely motivated by profit or that you are not entirely sure that what you are doing IS alright and so seek justification from fellow keepers.

You know the assumptions, you're not stupid. I'm just not going down that road with you.

----------

_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-17-2009)

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## Adam_Wysocki

> Then you would be a minority.  Mostlarge scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims.  I have been around a very long time.  There are no absolutes of course.


Two points about the quote above ...

#1 ... "more than 100 animals per year" is not a "large scale breeder" by any stretch of the imagination. You should know better if you've been around for a "very long time"

#2 ... Ingrid is not in the minority. I produce over 100 animals a year by an order of magnitude and I make sure that EVERY animal I sell either goes to a good home or goes to a trusted friend that I know will find it a good home. I have dozens of friends in this business that produce as much and even more than I do that do the same. I don't know where you've been for this long time, but it's not in the same reptile hobby that I know.

It can be done. Just because you choose not to put forth the effort and choose to KILL healthy animals doesn't mean that the rest of the industry follows suit. I'm embarrassed for you that your mental picture of this business is a bunch of emotionless breeders that would rather kill healthy offspring than find them proper homes. I've been around a long time too, going on 30 years of keeping ball pythons, I've had the privilege of meeting thousands of reptile breeders, hobbyists, and enthusiasts, and while there is certainly a small fraction that does have the same flagrant disregard for how precious a life is that you seem to have the VAST MAJORITY care about their animals as much as most people care about a dog, or a cat, or a even a family member.

Shame on you for lumping all of the good people in this hobby into a pile with the careless scum that are 100% to blame for the problems we are having with state, local, and the federal governments ... Shame on you for not taking the time to get to know the side of the hobby that treasures every life no matter what it's financial value, as precious ... Shame on you for discounting the compassion, respect, and love for these animals that I see every day on these forums and in the phone calls and emails that I receive as something done for show or in order to make sales.

If you want to kill healthy animals, that's your choice. But don't try to sell it to people that actually care about life. No one is buying.

Blessings,

-adam

----------

_catawhat75_ (09-17-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-17-2009),_CLSpider_ (10-28-2011),_coldblooded_ (09-17-2009),dr del (09-17-2009),_Eventide_ (09-17-2009),gp_dragsandballs (09-18-2009),Jamie-n-Heith (09-18-2009),_jglass38_ (09-17-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),MsPrada (09-18-2009),_Spaniard_ (09-17-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (09-17-2009),_waltah!_ (09-17-2009)

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## ShawnC

> Do you have ANY data that backs up your claims? So, because someone paid nothing for one of my normal males, (but spent well over $100 in purchases to set up their animal), it's less likely to be properly cared for? I would almost be willing to take an infraction to call cow manure!


Someone a while ago used an excellent example.  I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator?  If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most?  For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go".  Just because that isn't what you would do, doesn't mean thats not what others will do.  Again, I applaude you for placing your animals so well.  Most people dont' take that time.

And do you have any data to back your claims?  I am not here to garner your approval.  I am here to state my position, and why I think it's a good idea for the hobby with, literally, the enemy at our gates.  I's very easy of you to question my logic because I don't have any facts, but it's just as easy for me to ask you about your facts?  Can you show me something that proves me wrong?  Go to your local animal shelter and ask them how many ball pythons they take in each year...and then ask them if they want more.  Why not curb that flow of animals a little?  Whats the harm?  It makes you feel bad?  You already feed animals to toher animals as a part of your hobby...the species being different makes you this upset?  How great will you feel when we can't keep any of our animals becuase we are not responsible with the ones we currently mass produce?

S~

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## waltah!

> Someone a while ago used an excellent example.  I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator?  If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most?  For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go".  Just because that isn't what you would do, doesn't mean thats not what others will do.  Again, I applaude you for placing your animals so well.  Most people dont' take that time.
> 
> And do you have any data to back your claims?  I am not here to garner your approval.  I am here to state my position, and why I think it's a good idea for the hobby with, literally, the enemy at our gates.  I's very easy of you to question my logic because I don't have any facts, but it's just as easy for me to ask you about your facts?  Can you show me something that proves me wrong?  Go to your local animal shelter and ask them how many ball pythons they take in each year...and then ask them if they want more.  Why not curb that flow of animals a little?  Whats the harm?  It makes you feel bad?  You already feed animals to toher animals as a part of your hobby...the species being different makes you this upset?  How great will you feel when we can't keep any of our animals becuase we are not responsible with the ones we currently mass produce?
> 
> S~


If I had to choose to lose my iPhone or one of my normal males I would be losing that iPhone. Just sayin...

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_bigballs_ (09-18-2009)

----------


## ShawnC

> It seems, from what you have written, which is somewhat confusing, that you have two trains of thought. 
> 
> On the one hand, you say feeding your babies for food is ethical. No problem, I can see that.


Yes this is my position exactly.




> To the left however, you say it is good for the breed, ie you the breeder who makes money off the morphs he sells, and is better for the snakes which is a baseless assumption.


I never said this.  I said it's good for the hobby to not mass produce low value snakes that end up in the everglades or dead because they are considered by many to be disposable.  I did say I think it's better for the snakes, not the breed, that they be used as a feeder animals early, than sent out into the world where they are more likely than not, to have a poor qualoity of life.  I am not a proponent of culling to better the breed.  I never have been.




> If you're not confused, and I don't mean to insult you, you're either a good liar or you don't know yourself as well as you think.


No, your reading INTO what I am writing, not reading WHAT I am writing.  There is a difference.  You are making assumptions based on what you think I am saying, not stating what I actually said, and mean.  I am using very specific language for a reason.

S~

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## ShawnC

> If I had to choose to lose my iPhone or one of my normal males I would be losing that iPhone. Just sayin...


OK thats just funny.  8-)

S~

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## waltah!

> OK thats just funny.  8-)
> 
> S~


Not funny, but true. You make lots of assumptions regarding the members here. Pets are pets. They're not electronics that are easily replaced so I don't think it's a good comparison. 
Luckily for you Mom and Dad didn't subscribe to these same ideals since there are plenty of babies in the world.

----------


## ShawnC

> If you were truly so concern about the future of your animals, don't you thinl you should worry about the other too?


I am, but they are far less likely to get poor care, because they are more expensive.




> Do you seriously thing that because they are pretty or more expensive they cannot be abused, abandonned or die?


No, I think it's much less likely.  Thats the best you can hope for really.




> You can try to justify it all you want, whether it's the breeding for food, or you saving them from an atrocious future , you are simply killing those animals because they are "ugly" not worthy or your time and might take longer to sell...................... it's that simple.
> 
> And don't get me wrong you can do what you want with your animals but at least be honest with yourself and the reason why you are really doing what you are doing.



This is a very common thought because it's the easiest to believe.  I can't change that excpet by beating the same drum over and over.   Ten years ago when I lived in Florida I was preaching that Burms and Retics would be a problem in South Florida, and it would slap the entire hobby.  Look where we are today?  I am saying now that, we have reduced some species of snakes, pythons in particular, to such cheap animals because they are mass produced, that they will in the long run do more harm that good for the hobby.  How many times do you think a politician will need to hear a shelter say they cant' take anymore ball pythons...and that it's a real, costly problem, before we can't keep them anymore?  is that really worth selling a baby snake for $10?

S~

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## wilomn

> I am, but they are far less likely to get poor care, because they are more expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I think it's much less likely.  Thats the best you can hope for really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ohhhhhh, now I get it.

YOU get to choose for all of us what we do. 

You have one point of view and do not see any other. 

I say yours is flawed and therefore invalid.

You have every right no only to have it, but to proclaim it from every forum that will let you.

That does NOT make it valid though. Nothing will.

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_waltah!_ (09-17-2009)

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## ShawnC

> Not funny, but true. You make lots of assumptions regarding the members here. Pets are pets. They're not electronics that are easily replaced so I don't think it's a good comparison. 
> Luckily for you Mom and Dad didn't subscribe to these same ideals since there are plenty of babies in the world.


I make assumptions regarding mankind, not anyone here.  Most of the folks here are like me, and care alot for their animals, and what happens to them when they leave our care.  The problem is that when we tire of an animal, or can't use it anymore we sell it or give it away for the most part.  This happens again, then again, especially with inexpensive animals.  At some point in that chain, less valuable animals ussually met an untimely end for one reason or another.  Reducing the number of them at hatching is good from every angle.  The smaller footprint we have in the eyes of the folks who want to takeour snakes away, the better.  The footprint I speak of is stories of released animals, and abused animals.

S~

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## rabernet

> Someone a while ago used an excellent example.  I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator?  If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most?  For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go".  Just because that isn't what you would do, doesn't mean thats not what others will do.  Again, I applaude you for placing your animals so well.  Most people dont' take that time.
> 
> And do you have any data to back your claims?  I am not here to garner your approval.  I am here to state my position, and why I think it's a good idea for the hobby with, literally, the enemy at our gates.  I's very easy of you to question my logic because I don't have any facts, but it's just as easy for me to ask you about your facts?  Can you show me something that proves me wrong?  Go to your local animal shelter and ask them how many ball pythons they take in each year...and then ask them if they want more.  Why not curb that flow of animals a little?  Whats the harm?  It makes you feel bad?  You already feed animals to toher animals as a part of your hobby...the species being different makes you this upset?  How great will you feel when we can't keep any of our animals becuase we are not responsible with the ones we currently mass produce?
> 
> S~


Yes, I do have the data to make the claims about MY animals that have placed, and your assumptions hold no water _in my personal experiences_. I keep in touch with all the homes they've been placed in, and all of them still love them as much as the day that they got them. No one has yet taken me up on my offer to take their animals back if they grow tired or bored of them.

As to my local shelters here in metro Atlanta, they don't get many. How do I know? Because they have my number to call me as soon as any are surrendered there. I've had less than 5 calls in the past year. And when I call them to check from time to time, they don't have any. 

I have no problem with feeder snakes. I do have a problem with devaluing the life of an animal and feeding it off for no other reason than it doesn't fit your definition of beauty, when there are many, many homes who would love the chance to own it as a pet. 

I just don't believe that you've looked that hard, or you are just choosing not to see that there are many good people out there, who do take the responsibility of pet ownership very seriously and not as casually as you claim
that they do. 

If you breed for the reason of creating feeder snakes, fine. I have no problem with that. But if you feed off animals for some higher "moral ground" that you've deigned needs to be there, I don't support that. 

I do take offense that you believe that my animals, who I've carefully chosen homes for, are somehow worse off than yours who you choose to feed off.

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

> Most of the folks here are like me


I've been a member of this site for 5 years and I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I know one thing with absolutely certainty ... this is the most untrue statement ever posted on this forum.

Even though we may not always see eye to eye about things like animal prices, husbandry methods, politics, or religion, most of the folks here are people that I consider friends and fellow enthusiasts and I can assure you ... you are the odd man out.

-adam

----------

_cinderbird_ (09-17-2009),dr del (09-17-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-17-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (09-17-2009),_waltah!_ (09-17-2009)

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## waltah!

> I make assumptions regarding mankind, not anyone here.  Most of the folks here are like me, and care alot for their animals, and what happens to them when they leave our care.  The problem is that when we tire of an animal, or can't use it anymore we sell it or give it away for the most part.  This happens again, then again, especially with inexpensive animals.  At some point in that chain, less valuable animals ussually met an untimely end for one reason or another.  Reducing the number of them at hatching is good from every angle.  The smaller footprint we have in the eyes of the folks who want to takeour snakes away, the better.  The footprint I speak of is stories of released animals, and abused animals.
> 
> S~


You certainly have made assumptions about members here. Apparently we are liars who would not put our own pets ahead of a piece of electronics made in China. 
You can of course do anything you like with your own animals, but you are truly inflexible when it comes to anyone else's ideals or opinions. 
I can just see all of those little pythons in the eggs thinking to themselves "Man, I hope I make the cut!"

----------


## ShawnC

> Ohhhhhh, now I get it.
> 
> YOU get to choose for all of us what we do.


I didn't say this.  You are letting emotions get to you and you are loosing credibility with each post like this.  I am telling you what I do to try and stem what I see as a problem, and would like to debate oposing opinions.




> You have one point of view and do not see any other.


No, I see your point, and I want to debate with you about why I think mine approach is better for the hobby.  Thats what debating is...putting forward opposite views, and backing them up with your thoughts and if you have them, facts.  I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion.  But if you postone, I get to rebute it.




> I say yours is flawed and therefore invalid.


You love to say things like this.  Your are not debating.  You are saying things that make you sound profound, but they mean and prove nothing.  The problem is your not saying anything to support your side of the arguement.  Your letting your emotions rule your thoughts and you are posting things that show it. Just because you say my logic is flawed (and don't explain how or why  mind you) does not make it so...LOL.  Disagree with my posts, post your thoughts, but don't try to invalidate mine with a God Statement.

S~

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## olstyn

The point about high-value items getting better care has some weight in my experience, at least with material things.  For example, how many pairs of crappy $10 sunglasses have you broken and not cared about?  OTOH, I've got a pair of Oakleys that I've had for coming up on 13 years now.  If they were crappy $10 sunglasses, I most likely would have lost or accidentally broken them by now, but because they cost me $145, I've taken good care of them and still have the original lens.  Admittedly, it has a few scratches now, but all in all, it's in very good shape for a lens that's seen near-daily use for 13 years.

I think this behavior pattern breaks down somewhat with regard to animals, at least for those of us who feel an attachment to them, but I also know that there are many people out there who severely mistreat every type of animal, regardless of how "disposable" it may be.  It's nigh-impossible for us to determine which of these two behavior patterns is prevalent in more people, especially given that most people would claim that they take good care of their animals, regardless of whether it's true.

With regard to the argument that reptiles are more "disposable" than "cute," furry animals, I wonder if I'm odd in thinking that reptiles are actually *less* disposable because they live longer and will therefore be in your life longer.  Example: my leopard gecko may live to be > 20 years old (is the record still 28?), but most dogs and cats have a maximum lifespan of 10-15 years.  BPs can live even longer (IIRC the record is 40+ years).

Especially because this discussion began with carpet pythons, I have to wonder what criteria the OP uses to determine which animals will be "ugly" in the first place.  Carpets are variable and unpredictable in appearance; an ugly hatchling may be a beautiful adult and vice versa.

A further question for the OP:  what percentage of your fish's meals are baby carpets?  Your monitor's meals?  (I assume that as a "large-scale" breeder, you keep feeding records for all of your animals.)  If it's a high percentage, you might as well admit to yourself that part of your *purpose* in breeding carpets is to feed your other animals.  I'm not necessarily condemning you for that if it's true, but it seems like it could be seen as a relevant point in the discussion by some.

----------


## ShawnC

> You certainly have made assumptions about members here. Apparently we are liars who would not put our own pets ahead of a piece of electronics made in China. 
> You can of course do anything you like with your own animals, but you are truly inflexible when it comes to anyone else's ideals or opinions. 
> I can just see all of those little pythons in the eggs thinking to themselves "Man, I hope I make the cut!"


I never said you were liars.  Not once.  I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did.  I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position.  Its not very fair of guys to keep trying to make me look bad by putting words in my mouth, but it does prove one thing.  You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement.  If we were talking about bugs...you wouldn't have anything to say.  

I'll say it again.  This topic is emotionally driven, espcially since we are all snake nerds.  I said this in my first post.  If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it, and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people.  We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers.  Thats all.

S~

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## wilomn

> I didn't say this.  You are letting emotions get to you and you are loosing credibility with each post like this.  I am telling you what I do to try and stem what I see as a problem, and would like to debate oposing opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I see your point, and I want to debate with you about why I think mine approach is better for the hobby.  Thats what debating is...putting forward opposite views, and backing them up with your thoughts and if you have them, facts.  I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion.  But if you postone, I get to rebute it.
> 
> 
> 
> You love to say things like this.  Your are not debating.  You are saying things that make you sound profound, but they mean and prove nothing.  The problem is your not saying anything to support your side of the arguement.  Your letting your emotions rule your thoughts and you are posting things that show it. Just because you say my logic is flawed (and don't explain how or why  mind you) does not make it so...LOL.  Disagree with my posts, post your thoughts, but don't try to invalidate mine with a God Statement.
> ...


You have based everything you have said on assumptions.

I have no need to prove anything. I'm not the one trying to prove a point of view.

I can and do say that you are postulating as true what is not. That invalidates what you say.

The proof is in this thread. You have been disagreed with on almost every assumption you have put forth. You refuse to see any point of view other than your own, which is not debate but defense.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, don't care enough to put that much effort into it. Without putting effort into it though, I can see that your logic is flawed. 

The proof of that is in this thread. Whether or not you acknowledge it is not my call to make.

----------


## waltah!

> I never said you were liars.  Not once.  I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did.  I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position.  Its not very fair of guys to keep trying to make me look bad by putting words in my mouth, but it does prove one thing.  You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement.  If we were talking about bugs...you wouldn't have anything to say.  
> 
> I'll say it again.  This topic is emotionally driven, espcially since we are all snake nerds.  I said this in my first post.  If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it, and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people.  We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers.  Thats all.
> 
> S~


The original comparison was an Iphone to a calculator. YOU replaced the "disposable" calculator with a ball python. You called Robin a liar and mockingly called me one with the "that's just funny" reply regarding the above comparison.
Nobody has to put any words in your mouth to make you look bad. You are doing a mighty fine job of that all on your own. You keep saying to "take the emotion out of it". It's tough to do that when the subject matter is pets (bp's to be precise) on a site called ballpythons.net. Being unemotional about it is really not an option unless your main goal is just to have the biggest collection which any idiot with a credit card could accomplish.

----------

_cinderbird_ (09-17-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009)

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## wilomn

> I never said you were liars.  Not once.  I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did.  I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position.  Its not very fair of guys to keep trying to make me look bad by putting words in my mouth, but it does prove one thing.  You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement.  If we were talking about bugs...you wouldn't have anything to say.  
> 
> I'll say it again.  This topic is emotionally driven, espcially since we are all snake nerds.  I said this in my first post.  If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it, and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people.  We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers.  Thats all.
> 
> S~


Let me just say this about this emotion thing you keep blaming those who rightfully disagree with you for using to much. First, that is yet ANOTHER assumption on your part.

You don't know me so I can't really blame you and in fact with most people it would be true, but with me, and I say this only because it is true, emotion has NOTHING to do with my posts or point of view.

----------


## ShawnC

> Especially because this discussion began with carpet pythons, I have to wonder what criteria the OP uses to determine which animals will be "ugly" in the first place.  Carpets are variable and unpredictable in appearance; an ugly hatchling may be a beautiful adult and vice versa.
> 
> A further question for the OP:  what percentage of your fish's meals are baby carpets?  Your monitor's meals?  (I assume that as a "large-scale" breeder, you keep feeding records for all of your animals.)  If it's a high percentage, you might as well admit to yourself that part of your *purpose* in breeding carpets is to feed your other animals.  I'm not necessarily condemning you for that if it's true, but it seems like it could be seen as a relevant point in the discussion by some.


Excellent Post.  Carpets are not that hard.  You can get a good idea when they are little what they have the potential to be once you work with them a bit.  Still, I don't just cull stuff right out of the egg.  Sometimes it's six months down the road before i can tell it's not a great example of the type.

I am not a big breeder.  Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.

I maybe cull 15 or 20 animals per year.  I am not feeding babies by the plateful.  I am just making educated guesses as to what the likelyhood is of how this animal will look as an adult, and how likely it will be to find a true, long term home.  If I have a Coastal/IJ/Jungle Cross...it's truely a mutt, so it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.

S~

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## wilomn

> it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.
> 
> S~


And you know this how?

----------


## Stewart_Reptiles

> If I have a Coastal/IJ/Jungle Cross...it's truely a mutt, so it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.


Says YOU?

And if so it's because you do not want to put in the work! 

Then if so just quit breeding mutts............... problem solved!

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_Jyson_ (09-18-2009)

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## ShawnC

> You have based everything you have said on assumptions.


Name a few please, or stop talking.




> I have no need to prove anything. I'm not the one trying to prove a point of view.


Yes you are.  You are trying to tell me I am wrong.  Gop back a few posts and read where you are tell me so. Then please tell me why I am, or just go away.




> I can and do say that you are postulating as true what is not. That invalidates what you say.


Like what, and why is it untrue, because you say so?  Thats called using a GodStatement, and that has no merit.  You have to have a reason why it's not true, or you have no point.




> The proof is in this thread. You have been disagreed with on almost every assumption you have put forth. You refuse to see any point of view other than your own, which is not debate but defense.


Go back and reread it.  There are nearly half that agree with me, or at least have no problem with it.  The vocal ones are the folks who disagree.  Thats not uncommon, and what I was hoping for.




> I'm not trying to convince you of anything, don't care enough to put that much effort into it. Without putting effort into it though, I can see that your logic is flawed.


Again...God Statement.  Why did you come here, disagree with me, not post anything with any merit, and then bow out because you "don't care"?   That means I won our debate.  Thank you.

S~

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## wilomn

> Name a few please, or stop talking.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you are.  You are trying to tell me I am wrong.  Gop back a few posts and read where you are tell me so. Then please tell me why I am, or just go away.
> 
> 
> 
> Like what, and why is it untrue, because you say so?  Thats called using a GodStatement, and that has no merit.  You have to have a reason why it's not true, or you have no point.
> ...


LOL

As you will.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> This topic is emotionally driven... If you try really hard to take the emotion out of it


Of course it's emotionally driven, we're talking about killing living creatures here ... these aren't widgets, iphones, ipods, or sunglasses ... there is a name for people that speak about killing without emotion ... they're called sociopaths.

I mean really, did you seriously just suggest that we need to kill "low value" animals in order to reduce our "footprint" in the eyes of the government? Do you seriously believe that the only way to protect our rights as pet owners and breeders is to accept the notion that it's ok to take a life in the name of a hobby?

Well, I'm ready for my first infraction in 5 years ... cause that's about the biggest load of horse doo doo I've ever heard. (sorry for the potty mouth mods)

Blessings,

-adam

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_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

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## ShawnC

> The original comparison was an Iphone to a calculator. YOU replaced the "disposable" calculator with a ball python.


No, that comparison was made by a member here other than me, but in this same thread.  It was a good analogy, so I reused it to explain my point, again, because it takes emotion out of the equation.  Didn't I just go over this with you?




> You called Robin a liar.


No, I said I didn't know her well enough to call her a liar, and said if she were being truthful with me, that she's the first ball breeder I ever met who cares that much to do what she does for her animals.  Others backed her up, and respect her for it, so now I do too.




> and mockingly called me one with the "that's just funny" reply regarding the above comparison.


Actually.  You said you'd rather let the Iphone get wet than the calculator.  That made me laugh, and I thought you were trying to be funny, and break the ice a little.  My bad I guess....sheesh.  Next time I won't politely laugh.




> Nobody has to put any words in your mouth to make you look bad. You are doing a mighty fine job of that all on your own. You keep saying to "take the emotion out of it". It's tough to do that when the subject matter is pets (bp's to be precise) on a site called ballpythons.net. Being unemotional about it is really not an option unless your main goal is just to have the biggest collection which any idiot with a credit card could accomplish.


Sir, you keep misqouting me.  Please read above in the last few exchanges I have had with you.  Thats not fair, and called putting words in my mouth.  I m not here to make friends, andif being truthful is making me look bad, then that OK with me.   

Yet again, I am not here to garner approval, and I am just saying what tons of people already think, but never talk about on a forum.  The really great thing is that you guys are helping me make my point.  Your not attacking my logic, your attacking me personally by misqouting me, and negating my thoughts with GodStatements.  Thats your emotions talking, which I totally get, and just keep trying to remind you that it's not about emotions, it's about whats best for the hobby.  And whats best is not always what is the easiest, or most fun.

S~

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## aSnakeLovinBabe

Well,  Don't kill baby snakes because it's MEAN!!! alright no, but seriously...


sorry but I'll just be very blunt here. I do not agree with culling healthy animals, even accidental hybrids, for any reason. If people have trouble homing snakes that they produce, they should not be producing them in the first place. I believe that once they are born their life is to be respected such as any other's would be. It is not their fault that they were produced and made they way they are, and they should not have to pay the ultimate price for it. This goes across the board, not just for snake keepers. People who cull healthy animals should maybe take a step back and look into a different hobby, one that does not involve choosing who is worthy of living, and who isn't. Breeding specifically for feeders is different and there's nothing wrong with it, but I am not aware of anyone personally that puts all the work into breeding snakes to use as feeders, because let's all be realistic here it IS a lot of work, and a heck of a LOT more to produce than any rodent or bird feeder, there are just so many other options that make SO much more sense. But still, I am not talking about breeding and using snakes as feeders, I am talking about the people who just opt for the easiest and cheapest way out of a situation that involves too many baby snakes. There is something wrong with people who will simply think nothing of killing off animals that are either not up to their personal standards, or that they are having too much trouble finding homes for. Most of the time, they are simply not trying hard enough or are trying to get something out of them in an effort not to lose money. Many dog and cat breeders think nothing of doing it. I have witnessed this personally and one of my customers owns a pefectly healthy beagle that was brought to her office to be put to sleep as a puppy because she was not "up to par", whatever that means. I am not angry because it's a cute little puppy, I am angry because some people have a serious god complex. Who is that person to decide that a healthy, thriving animal is sub-par? Who wrote that handbook? *I would like to meet this person. And then hit them.
* If you have quadruplets and you were only aiming to have a single baby, and the strain is really too much and one of those children has a very slight handicap, surely, you wouldn't cull that child. What I am trying to say is, respect life in all of it's forms. One life form should never be considered less valuable than another. 

This also continues to be a problem in cornsnakes, and probably BP's too, everyone is producing far too many and the animals are the only ones that suffer from it. If you truly love your animals, and you respect them and love them as you would your own family, then it should be the same for their offspring. I know and have met many, many, many people at expo's who I can clearly say, should be in a different hobby. Those would be the ones that treat animal keeping and collecting much the same they would stamp, trading card, and rock collecting. I simply can't stand it. They should not be treated as merchandise or product, it strips much of the true value of this hobby away, as does the short and to the point, recycled, synthetic-feeling responses you get from breeders and sellers who treat them as such. If you have to treat them like they are merchandise/products, you have too many. Where is the quality of life there?

 I keep snakes because I love them to pieces, every single one and I will do anything, even if I lose money, or even turn down a sale (I have, actually), to ensure that any snake I produce will have a bright future ahead. If I ever get to the point where I cannot handle everything on a personal level with time to dedicate to my snakes and customers on an individual, personalized basis I will know it's time to downsize. I wish more people would take that extra step and even maybe try to get a feel for each of their hatchlings on a one on one basis. To many people, that is absurd and completely unrealistic. But I know for a fact it is not. Give me a clutch of baby snakes that all look the same and in a few weeks I will know them as individuals... their sex, what they prefer to eat, how they'd like to eat it and what kind of temper they have. Try it, it gives you a distinct advantage: potential buyers love the fact that you actually care past having a successful transaction!

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_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

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## SilverWolf

If it's simply not for the money and you do care about the animal enough to worry what might happen to it in the future (because there are too many "normal" "ugly" snakes).
Then you would either not breed at all or breed very limited amounts so that you could be very careful with who gets those "normal" "ugly" snakes you produced while trying to get that "high end" "pretty" snake. 

Without having to cull any of them!  

Just my opinion.

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## ShawnC

> Of course it's emotionally driven, we're talking about killing living creatures here ... these aren't widgets, iphones, ipods, or sunglasses ... there is a name for people that speak about killing without emotion ... they're called sociopaths.
> 
> I mean really, did you seriously just suggest that we need to kill "low value" animals in order to reduce our "footprint" in the eyes of the government? Do you seriously believe that the only way to protect our rights as pet owners and breeders is to accept the notion that it's ok to take a life in the name of a hobby?
> 
> Well, I'm ready for my first infraction in 5 years ... cause that's about the biggest load of horse doo doo I've ever heard. (sorry for the potty mouth mods)
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> -adam


Yes, I seriously think that it's OK to use low value snakes as feeders.  I also think that in doing so, it helps our hobby.  I understand they are living things, but so are dogs and cats, and we kill tens of millions every year in shelters because they are unwanted...snakes are in the same boat.  There are way more out there already than need be.  So, lets take a moment before we decide to blow out a bunch of $10 snakes and ask if it's doing us any good as a hobby?  We are already under pressure.  Why make it worse on ourselves to make a few extra bucks.  it's not worht it IMHO.  

If I offered you an 18 foot brum right now, would you take it and keep it for the rest of your life?  Be careful of your answer, I might actually have one to send you.  What should I do with that burm now that I can't, or don't want to care for it?  This question comes up hundreds of times everyday already in the hobby.  Thanks to stuff being released...we are all fighting to keep our rights as hobbiests.  It'd be nice to show the govt. we are more than a bunch of money grubbing fools selling $10 mass produced snakes no matter what the cost I think.  Don't you?

S~

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## ShawnC

> If it's simply not for the money and you do care about the animal enough to worry what might happen to it in the future (because there are too many "normal" "ugly" snakes).
> Then you would either not breed at all or breed very limited amounts so that you could be very careful with who gets those "normal" "ugly" snakes you produced while trying to get that "high end" "pretty" snake. 
> 
> Without having to cull any of them!  
> 
> Just my opinion.


I completly agree with you.  The problem is, if I have to give up my hobby, it's not choice at all.  I'll cull snakes all day long rather than give it up.  I love working with my animals, and if that means I think a few should be used as feeders to make me feel better about what I am doing as a hobbiest, so be it.  Thats selfish I know.  But no more selfish in my view than someone who sells hundred lots of ball pythons for nothing so they can make a quick buck.  I think thats far worse than what I do.

S~

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> Most large scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims.  I have been around a very long time.





> I produce upwards of 300 carpet pythons babies per year, and have this year, expanded into ball pythons.





> I am not a big breeder.  Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.


So you are by your own definition a large scale breeder because you produce more then 100 animals per year.... And you have been around a long time.

But you also are NOT a big breeder because you only breed 300 babies per year, and that's not many.  

You just started working with ball pythons this year, but somehow we as a ball python forum should consider that you have been around for a long time.

*LOL*




> It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care.


This is an idiotic statement at best.   You obviously have NO clue what you are talking about.  This could not be further from the truth.  I am not even going to begin to try to argue my point on this because you have already made it clear that it would be a waste of time.




> Someone a while ago used an excellent example.  I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator?


So now you are comparing an animal that YOU produced to an electronic product? Or you are using this point that someone else made to back up your argument?  I wish there was a way to immediately ban you from being able to even keep reptiles... let alone breed them.  Luckily though sooner or later we will find out who you really are and your business will be in ruins without any outside help.

Welcome to the world of Ball Pythons.  I hope you enjoy your SHORT stay.

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## wilomn

> Thanks to stuff being released...we are all fighting to keep our rights as hobbiests.  
> 
> S~


Really? That's the only source of wild pythons in Fla?

You pick and choose, ignore and imply, yet you say the same thing over and over.

You don't want a conversation, you don't want a debate. You want us to tell you it's ok.

Good luck with that.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-17-2009)

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## ShawnC

"There is something wrong with people who will simply think nothing of killing off animals that are either not up to their personal standards, or that they are having too much trouble finding homes for."

And yet, they will continue to create thousands of them, and sell them to anyone with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can to keep them in.  See my point?  Which is worse?

S~

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## waltah!

> No, that comparison was made by a member here other than me, but in this same thread.  It was a good analogy, so I reused it to explain my point, again, because it takes emotion out of the equation.  Didn't I just go over this with you?
> 
> 
> 
> No, I said I didn't know her well enough to call her a liar, and said if she were being truthful with me, that she's the first ball breeder I ever met who cares that much to do what she does for her animals.  Others backed her up, and respect her for it, so now I do too.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually.  You said you'd rather let the Iphone get wet than the calculator.  That made me laugh, and I thought you were trying to be funny, and break the ice a little.  My bad I guess....sheesh.  Next time I won't politely laugh.
> ...


Actually I said I would rather lose my iPhone than one of my normal males. You just misquoted me. It's easy to do with this many posts in a thread, huh. 
Oh, and you did call Robin a liar. Calling her one flat out then saying "but I'm not calling you a liar" is still calling her a liar.
I think it's pretty obvious that we will not agree here. You won't find tons of members here who will completely agree with you as most of them put the animals first. As was said before, I believe that if you can't or are NOT WILLING to care for any animals that you intentionally bred then you shouldn't be breeding so many animals. 
You have mentioned how bad these "Godstatements" are, but you are playing God by picking and choosing who gets to live between  animals that you are solely responsible for bringing into the world. I'm not going to continue going back and forth with you. I will just have to hope that you only hatch out attractive babies I guess.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> You don't want a conversation, you don't want a debate. You want us to tell you it's ok.
> 
> Good luck with that.


LMAO   :Community:

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

> Yes, I seriously think that it's OK to use low value snakes as feeders.


Ahhh ... but here is where you implode. You have some posts that talk about using snakes as feeders, but you have many more posts that advocates the killing of low value animals in order to:

#1 save them from a potential owner that won't care for them because they're cheap

#2 save them from being released and being a potential liability to our hobby

#3 save our hobby from a possible pandemic of over production

So which is it? If it's just killing for feeders, I don't think this thread would be 9+ pages long. You're advocating killing for lack of value ... unless I missed the post where you were feeding $100+ snakes to lizards?




> I understand they are living things, but so are dogs and cats, and we kill tens of millions every year in shelters because they are unwanted...snakes are in the same boat.


The fact that shelters are killing cats and dogs doesn't not give the act moral justification. Killing is wrong. People that work in shelters will tell you the same thing. The difference is that people in shelters aren't breeding. You are killing AND breeding ... pointing at people and saying "look, they're doing it too" doesn't justify your actions, it makes you look defensive and sad.




> There are way more out there already than need be.


If that's true, then why do you continue to breed? I mean, if it's not about money for you as you said in your original post, what is it then. Not about money and too many snakes out there, yet you continue to produce over 300 snakes a year ... why? Is it because you get a kick out of killing?





> So, lets take a moment before we decide to blow out a bunch of $10 snakes


Why do you keep talking about "blowing out" a living creature? These aren't DVD players or big screen TV's ... we're talking about one of the most precious things on the planet ... a life. Why do you have such contempt and disrespect for animals?




> We are already under pressure.  Why make it worse on ourselves to make a few extra bucks.  it's not worht it IMHO.


So, it's worth it to kill cheap animals so that you can keep breeding and selling the valuable stuff? I see.





> If I offered you an 18 foot brum right now, would you take it and keep it for the rest of your life?  Be careful of your answer, I might actually have one to send you.  What should I do with that burm now that I can't, or don't want to care for it?


If you seriously need to find a home for a burmese python, there are resources available to help you. I know for a fact that USARK and PIJAC both have programs to help you and there are hundreds of rescues nationwide that will take in unwanted burms. If you don't know how to find such resources, I'd be happy to help you.




> It'd be nice to show the govt. we are more than a bunch of money grubbing fools selling $10 mass produced snakes no matter what the cost I think.


By showing them that we're so callous and have such a disregard for life that we're willing to kill in order to keep selling "high value" animals that we produce? I think not.

-adam

----------

ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-18-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-17-2009),dr del (09-18-2009),gp_dragsandballs (09-18-2009),_jglass38_ (09-18-2009),justind (09-18-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),_marct_ (09-19-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-18-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

----------


## ShawnC

"So you are by your own definition a large scale breeder because you produce more then 100 animals per year.... And you have been around a long time.

But you also are NOT a big breeder because you only breed 300 babies per year, and that's not many."

It's an attempt at being humble.  I know you understand this, but choose to nitpick it anyway.  Thats pretty telling.  There are people who produce WAY more than that.

"You just started working with ball pythons this year, but somehow we as a ball python forum should consider that you have been around for a long time"

What does species have to do with it?  I have been keeping snakes for 30 years.  We are using ball pythons because they are the most commonly kept, and popular pet snake...how does that not make sense?  Just because i decided to start working with them as a breeder doens't mean I have never seen them before, or know nohting about them.  Really?


"This is an idiotic statement at best.   You obviously have NO clue what you are talking about.  This could not be further from the truth.  I am not even going to begin to try to argue my point on this because you have already made it clear that it would be a waste of time. "

Please take a lesson from Wilomn.  If you can't debate me, then don't say anything or you risk weakening your own position.  Tell me why I have no clue, and then we are moving forward.


" I wish their was a way to immediately ban you from being able to even keep reptiles... let alone breed them.  Luckily though sooner or later we will find out who you really are and your business will be in ruins without any outside help"

Emotions are not your friend...I don't have a reptile business.  It's a hobby that I enjoy, and have for 30 years.  I own other sucessful business's that enable me to have a fun hobby.  I am not saying anything that hasn't been discussed multiple times by multiple people in private conversations.  I just have the guts to say it here, and invite a discussion, which a few of you are not capable of having without getting all worked up.  The funny thing is, most of the large breeders, so far, have had nothing to say...why do you think that it folks?

S~

----------


## wilomn

> The funny thing is, most of the large breeders, so far, have had nothing to say...why do you think that it folks?
> 
> S~


Because talking to you is much akin to cleaning a kennel. It may be necessary, but you still get crap on you just from doing it.

You're no better than anyone else. You're not braver. You're not breaking the mold, you're not much of anything other than someone who seems to need a LOT of attention.

Your 15 minutes are almost up.

----------

ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009)

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> "
> The funny thing is, most of the large breeders, so far, have had nothing to say...why do you think that it folks?
> 
> S~


LMAO, I will risk my perfect infraction points on this but you really are _misinformed_, and everyone in this forum is laughing at you.   :sploosh: 

Do you have ANY idea who some of the people are taking part in this conversation?

guess not.

Good Day.

----------


## waltah!

Exactly what larger breeders are you looking to hear from on this forum? Adam is one of the largest breeders that regularly posts here and he has no issues responding. The funny thing really is that he DOES do this as his business and is not willing to support this idea, but someone who does this as a hobby is willing to shove it down everyone's throats. That is kinda funny. You strike me as someone who wants to breed for specific things and is willing to just toss the rest. I'm willing to bet that you will stand here and hold your ground even though you will continue to get shut down by the other members,  and shortly everyone will forget all about it. When that happens you will get bored then take your ball and go home.

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

> and everyone in this forum is laughing at you.


I don't know about "everyone", but judging by the amount of PM's and TXT's I'm getting with the letters LOL in them ... it's a lot.  :Good Job: 

-adam

EDIT: sorry, that was supposed to be in a PM ... whoopsie.  :Razz:

----------


## wilomn

> you will continue to get shut down by the other members,  and shortly everyone will forget all about it. When that happens you will get bored then take your ball and go home.


Where it will be fed to his arawana and promptly forgotten.

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## waltah!

> Where it will be fed to his arawana and promptly forgotten.


Only if it's an unattractive ball :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## bad-one

> And yet, they will continue to create thousands of them, and sell them to anyone with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can to keep them in.


I think I speak for most people that frequent here: whether I buy a snake for $10 or $1,000 doesn't matter, they are both my pets and get treated the same.

My normal male that has no real value in $ but has a lot of value to me as a pet and gets treated with as much care as my $200+ morphs. There are people who will buy that "ugly" or "low value" snake and keep it as a valued, well cared for pet, as long as you take the time to wait for that person to come along.

I'm ok with feeding snakes as feeders and breeding them for that purpose.

I'm not ok with putting down a perfectly good animal that is "ugly", assuming the low price tag means a low quality of life. Imo, it is unnecesary and devalues life.

----------


## ShawnC

> Ahhh ... but here is where you implode. You have some posts that talk about using snakes as feeders, but you have many more posts that advocates the killing of low value animals in order to:
> 
> #1 save them from a potential owner that won't care for them because they're cheap
> 
> #2 save them from being released and being a potential liability to our hobby
> 
> #3 save our hobby from a possible pandemic of over production
> 
> So which is it? If it's just killing for feeders, I don't think this thread would be 9+ pages long. You're advocating killing for lack of value ... unless I missed the post where you were feeding $100+ snakes to lizards?


Neither.  I said long ago, and have continued to say, that I don't like to cull, and I only feel good about it when I use them as feeders for my lizards or my arrowanna.  At least that way I feel they have a purpose, and it's not useless death.  The reasons that I cull, are the reasons that you just listed.  they are completely related, and don't contradict at all.  






> The fact that shelters are killing cats and dogs doesn't not give the act moral justification. Killing is wrong. People that work in shelters will tell you the same thing. The difference is that people in shelters aren't breeding. You are killing AND breeding ... pointing at people and saying "look, they're doing it too" doesn't justify your actions, it makes you look defensive and sad.


So are you.  You are the puppy mill that chooses not to cull, and sell everything they proudce for whatever they can get for it.  I am the breeder who sells only what he thinks should be sold.  See the difference?  My method keeps animals out of shelters...that was my point sir.






> If that's true, then why do you continue to breed? I mean, if it's not about money for you as you said in your original post, what is it then. Not about money and too many snakes out there, yet you continue to produce over 300 snakes a year ... why? Is it because you get a kick out of killing?


Don't be foolish.  Why do you breed your animals?  I suspect for the same reasons I do.  Mostly, it's a ton of fun.  The difference is I cull, and you don't.  Thats it.  I don't enjoy it.  I just think it's better for the hobby.  thats all this is about.







> Why do you keep talking about "blowing out" a living creature? These aren't DVD players or big screen TV's ... we're talking about one of the most precious things on the planet ... a life. Why do you have such contempt and disrespect for animals?


You know what that means don't you?  Moving a large quantity of less than desireable animals at a discounted price?  Do i really need to say that?  Are you trying to make me look bad becuase I use a completely appriate phrase?  Really?  A life is a life this is ture.  My animals have a purpose.  If I don't think they have the potential to be a lifelong pet for someone, they have a purpose as a feeder animal.   In your model, they have two purposes.  to make you a quick ten bucks, and to, in most cases, live a subpar existance and maybe even be killed through neglect or euthanized at a shelter after years of neglect.  Man....I am evil.






> So, it's worth it to kill cheap animals so that you can keep breeding and selling the valuable stuff? I see.


No, I never said that.  I am not selling everything I produce.  You are.  Who is the money grubbing fiend?  All things being equal, you make more money than I do in that situation.  I do HAVE to cull if I want to keep breeding, but thats becuase I create the same normals and unwanted phenotypes that you do.  The difference is...I think selling the less valueable ones hurt the hobby...you dont' care, and make your money.







> If you seriously need to find a home for a burmese python, there are resources available to help you. I know for a fact that USARK and PIJAC both have programs to help you and there are hundreds of rescues nationwide that will take in unwanted burms. If you don't know how to find such resources, I'd be happy to help you.


Thats not true.  Thats sounds great an all, but most of those places that do take them are not no kill shelters.  So why would I send an animals there?  most of the no kill shelters are over run, and continue to be over run, byt people who dont' have the heart to cull their own stock before they "blow it out" for an easy sale.

S~

----------


## AaronP

> On what planet is death better for a living creature than life?
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> -adam


Not that I am arguing with you Adam, but what do you think PETA believes?  :Wink:

----------


## waltah!

> Not that I am arguing with you Adam, but what do you think PETA believes?


I didn't hear Adam supporting PETA anywhere in this thread.

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## cinderbird

> I am not a big breeder.  Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.
> 
> I maybe cull 15 or 20 animals per year.  I am not feeding babies by the plateful.  I am just making educated guesses as to what the likelyhood is of how this animal will look as an adult, and how likely it will be to find a true, long term home.  If I have a Coastal/IJ/Jungle Cross...it's truely a mutt, so it had better be a good looking animal, or it has little chance of finding a place where it will spend it's day in comfort.
> 
> S~





> Yes, I seriously think that it's OK to use low value snakes as feeders.  I also think that in doing so, it helps our hobby.  I understand they are living things, but so are dogs and cats, and we kill tens of millions every year in shelters because they are unwanted...snakes are in the same boat.  There are way more out there already than need be.  So, lets take a moment before we decide to blow out a bunch of $10 snakes and ask if it's doing us any good as a hobby?  We are already under pressure.  Why make it worse on ourselves to make a few extra bucks.  it's not worht it IMHO.  
> 
> If I offered you an 18 foot brum right now, would you take it and keep it for the rest of your life?  Be careful of your answer, I might actually have one to send you.  What should I do with that burm now that I can't, or don't want to care for it?  This question comes up hundreds of times everyday already in the hobby.  Thanks to stuff being released...we are all fighting to keep our rights as hobbiests.  It'd be nice to show the govt. we are more than a bunch of money grubbing fools selling $10 mass produced snakes no matter what the cost I think.  Don't you?
> 
> S~


I saw this thread before anyone replied to it, and knew it was going to end up a complete storm. I knew this because of how you brought this topic up in the first place, here. 

I COMPLETELY understand people using BPs for feeder animals for their cannibalistic snakes.  But like Adam said, if that was the original, actual point for this thread it would not be reaching 11 pages. 

You call yourself a big breeder, but then you're not a big breeder. If these animals have such a terrible quality of life that you chose to _kill_  them rather than to trust them in the hands of people YOU YOURSELF COULD HELP EDUCATE, I have nothing to say to you that would make you listen to me and the other people on this forum who have expressed the same exact concern in the past 11 pages of this mess. 

You say we need to "lower our production footprint" but you only euthanize 15-20 animals a year? How is this actually reducing a footprint? From what I understand about carpets, they have larger clutches than BPs but I have no research data on carpets because I have no plans to breed them. 

If you have such an accurate crystal ball to see into the future then you knew how people would react to this thread based on your ridiculous responses and accusations. You could also have tried to DO something about the burms in Florida. Instead, you sit here pu-pu-ing us for...not doing something. Honestly I think i lost your point on that one... Education is the KEY to saving our hobby.  

As for your 18 foot burm, hypothetical or not, there are people that can help you with that animal. Offering it (hypothetically or not) to another hobbiest who, as far as you know, has no interest in keeping such a large and taxing animal is JUST as irresponsible as what you accuse the keepers-that-never-were of doing. You know, those keepers whose possible snakes you culled because they'd apparently never take care of them because they are low value?  And on a tangent, if people were EDUCATED (theres that word again) about these animals before they purchased them, maybe they'd know that they arent an acceptable pet for them. Believe me, I know more than one person who was sold a Burmese python and told it was a BALL python. How does that help us?

My "most affordable" snake was 11 dollars. She was a rescue. She has a place here, for the rest of her life in my collection. She is JUST as important to me as the animals I paid more than 11 dollars for. She's priceless to me. 

Why can't you muster up a little more faith in humanity?

----------

_bad-one_ (09-18-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009),rabernet (09-18-2009)

----------


## Eventide

> The problem is, if I have to give up my hobby, it's not choice at all.  I'll cull snakes all day long rather than give it up.


Um, wow.  I'm really not sure what to say to this.  So...the hobby in and of itself is more important to you than the snakes are?  

Why do you breed snakes?  I truly want to know because it clearly isn't a love for the animals.  (I just want to satisfy my own curiosity.)




> And yet, they will continue to create thousands of them, and sell them to anyone with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can to keep them in.  See my point?  Which is worse?


How many people here have mentioned they find good homes for their "ugly, unwanted" snakes?  Who is this "they" you are referring to?

Yes, there are people who care more about the almighty dollar than the animals and will sell them to anyone "with a ten dollar bill and a coffee can."  I don't know what fraction of breeders fall into this category, but just from reading people's responses here and reading the "About" sections of many other breeders, I'd have to say it's the minority.

I do still think there is merit in the argument that something that costs less doesn't get the same care as something that costs more.  Again, I am referring to people and things in general, not everyone.  It's just human nature.  (I like the $10 sunglasses example!)

Then again, I've noticed that reptiles, in general, are more likely to be considered "throw-away" animals.  Again, I'm referring to the general public, here.  My vet tech friend tells me stories of people who don't want to treat their snake's RI or have surgery to save the life of their tortoise because "it's just a snake" or "it's just a tortoise."  She's even heard someone say that if it were their dog, they'd spend thousands to save it without thinking twice, but they weren't willing to spend a couple hundred to save their turtle.

However, just because a snake "might" end up in the wrong hands does not, in my opinion, justify killing said snake.  It might end up in a bad home (if one doesn't take the time/effort/money to make sure it doesn't) or it may not.  You may die a slow, painful death someday, or you may not.  Would you rather just die now instead of _maybe_ suffering a lot later?

You're free to think/do what you will, but I agree with others here who have said that you need to do it for the right reason, not for a false reason you want others to justify.  For example, rabernet (sorry, I don't know your name right offhand) values the lives of every snake she produces.  Therefore, she will spend extra time/money/effort to find good homes for them.  You, it seems, do not value the lives of _every_ snake you produce, so you prefer to feed it to your other pets.  If you did value the lives of all the snakes you produce, you'd either try hard to produce as few "throw-away" snakes as possible, be sure to find good homes for them, or you'd stop your hobby altogether.

I'd also like to know where all these shelters are that (1) actually accept reptiles and (2) are overflowing with unwanted snakes.  Even the herp societies around here don't have very many (as far as I know).

Oh, one more thing.  You say you cull your "ugly" animals because you think it will help our hobby against those who turn loose unwanted animals and lead to the legislative issues we've been having lately.  The only animals that are becoming problems are the big snakes (Retics, Burms, Rocks, etc.), and that problem is only occurring in Florida.  Culling "unwanted" ball pythons or jungle carpet pythons does not help this issue any at all.  No one's JCP or BP is going to survive for very long if turned loose, so your argument here is faulty.

----------


## AaronP

> I didn't hear Adam supporting PETA anywhere in this thread.


You misunderstand me Waltah!, I wasn't suggesting that he supports PETA, I am pointing out that that is what they believe.

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_waltah!_ (09-18-2009)

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## ShawnC

> I'm willing to bet that you will stand here and hold your ground even though you will continue to get shut down by the other members,  and shortly everyone will forget all about it. When that happens you will get bored then take your ball and go home.



Your right.  I came here to debate a point that, again, has been a hush hush topic for years.  It will be forgotten.  That's why I know I can come here and debate, and it won't affect my sales at all.  Noone knows who I am anyway right?  But I can promise that I'll come back when this overproduction problem bites us in the ass, and I'll say I told you so, and you'll eat crow.  And we will all be losers because we have lost some, if not all, of our rights as hobbiest's.  Mostly because you are overly sensitive, or you don't give a crap, and are out to make a buck for yourself, to hell with the hobby.

And I do know who some of the names are.  I see 3 people I'd call kinda large breeders.  I hope more post, and can be honest in thier thoughts.  I am not here for attention, to get yelled at.  I am here to tell people what I do, even though it sucks, with some of the animals that are byproduct offspring of some of my projects.  I think it's a much more feasible model than what most of you do now.  After this thread dies, I'll go back to lurking, which is really all I have time to do alot of...posting this much is a huge time sink.

S~

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## wilomn

> Why can't you muster up a little more faith in humanity?


I could answer that but then this thread would go on and on.

However, it's not about humanity in general but about his specifically.

He thinks only of himself, he is right, always, no matter the evidence to the contrary and will brook no one saying otherwise.

Hang on a second here, ...... one more, just one more annnnnnnnnd that's it.

Your 15 minutes are up.

See ya, wouldn't want ta be ya.

----------


## ShawnC

> I think I speak for most people that frequent here: whether I buy a snake for $10 or $1,000 doesn't matter, they are both my pets and get treated the same.


The people to worry about are not the people who come here.  We are the minority in my arguement.  I am the same way, and so are most of the people here I suspect.

S~

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## wilomn

> After this thread dies, I'll go back to lurking, which is really all I have time to do alot of...posting this much is a huge time sink.
> 
> S~


And then the big boys all ganged up on me and said mean things.....

Go. lurk, sink not. 

Please.

----------

_AaronP_ (09-18-2009),ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009)

----------


## ShawnC

> My "most affordable" snake was 11 dollars. She was a rescue. She has a place here, for the rest of her life in my collection. She is JUST as important to me as the animals I paid more than 11 dollars for. She's priceless to me. 
> 
> Why can't you muster up a little more faith in humanity?


Again, you are not the problem on the husbandry end.  None of us are that frequent places like this.  The problem is, the snakes end up in the "dude hold my beer while I go get my python" person's hand, who will untilmately lose interest.  Then what happens?  Why not keep back 10% and just use them as feeders, and avoid some of that crap?

My faith in humanity is blown, thats pretty clear.  People though, are predictable to a very high degree of probablility.  The life of a large, unattractive and god forbid, mean python, can be nearly as predictable IMHO.  Thats why I try to avoid that when and where I can.

S~

----------


## waltah!

> After this thread dies, I'll go back to lurking, which is really all I have time to do alot of...posting this much is a huge time sink.
> 
> S~


You're telling me. 
You say you can come here and debate this and not lose any sales. You have admonished folks here calling them "money grubbing fiends" I believe it was. The fact that you would think you would lose sales by discussing this in a venue where you are more well known kinda throws you in that category. I forgot to mention that I do know who you are. You have lots of carpets. You purchased an already established forum. Good for you.
BTW, I'm not sure if you are all too familiar with Mr. Wysocki, but in referring to him as a "money grubbing fiend" you could not be more wrong. 
When this goes away you can go back to killing healthy babies for your own selfish reasons and we will forget that you ever posted here. 
See there....we can agree to disagree. Hey, at least that's somethin.

----------


## Eventide

Okay, I have another question.

If you did not have any animals to feed your unwanted snakes to, would you still cull them?

----------


## cinderbird

> The people to worry about are not the people who come here.  We are the minority in my arguement.  I am the same way, and so are most of the people here I suspect.
> 
> S~





> Again, you are not the problem on the husbandry end.  None of us are that frequent places like this.  The problem is, the snakes end up in the "dude hold my beer while I go get my python" person's hand, who will untilmately lose interest.  Then what happens?  Why not keep back 10% and just use them as feeders, and avoid some of that crap?
> 
> My faith in humanity is blown, thats pretty clear.  People though, are predictable to a very high degree of probablility.  The life of a large, unattractive and god forbid, mean python, can be nearly as predictable IMHO.  Thats why I try to avoid that when and where I can.
> 
> S~



Except that there are a lot of breeders who are trying to change that. Rabernet has given you concrete examples,and I know for a fact that Adam is there LONG after the sale of his animals and that he takes calls from people who have never purchased anything from him just so he can help. There are a lot of other people who share the same views of the two aforementioned people.

I plan on breeding BPs starting in the next few years. And i've thought heavily about this. I am fully prepared to keep every animal i produce if I can't find it a home that meets my requirements. Any first time ball python owner will be getting a black and white copy of my book, my cell phone number and my e-mail so that they have the information they need and the means to get it. Like Rabernet, i will be there long after the animal finds a home in case someone needs me. Animals that are no longer wanted will be coming back to my collection to either stay with me or find a new home with another owner. 

Once again, education is the key.

----------

_bad-one_ (09-18-2009)

----------


## ShawnC

> And then the big boys all ganged up on me and said mean things.....
> 
> Go. lurk, sink not. 
> 
> Please.


Do you think you are making yourself look good?  I blew you away in our debate, and now all you do is insult me.  Wow...you have a ton of character.  not much has changed since the BOI way back when though I guess.  Same dude...same debating logic...same response when he loses.

S~

----------


## ShawnC

> Okay, I have another question.
> 
> If you did not have any animals to feed your unwanted snakes to, would you still cull them?


No.  Thats why I bought them.  They were purchased after I determined I shouldn't be dumping all of my offspring into the marketplace unwanted.  i don't have the heart to throw them in a freezer.

S~

----------


## cinderbird

> No.  Thats why I bought them.  They were purchased after I determined I shouldn't be dumping all of my offspring into the marketplace unwanted.  i don't have the heart to throw them in a freezer.
> 
> S~


on a slight tangent... if there is no freezer, how do you cull your animals?

----------


## ShawnC

> Y "money grubbing fiends" .


Mr. Wysoki intended to show that I was in this position to make money somehow.  I am pointing out clearly by using that term, that I am not the guy who is making more money with the less caring model...anyone who advocates creating tons of animals with no regard to where they will go and who will end up with them is in fact the evil doer.  Sorry you don't like the term, but if you are going to try to make me look like I am somehow in this for my own selfsish gains, then I have the right to come back at you.

S~

----------


## AaronP

> Do you think you are making yourself look good?  I blew you away in our debate, and now all you do is insult me.  Wow...you have a ton of character.  not much has changed since the BOI way back when though I guess.  Same dude...same debating logic...same response when he loses.
> 
> S~


This "Debate" isn't about winning or losing, no one goes home with a blue ribbon at the eventual end of this thread.   And you didn't "Blow" anyone away, you have a different opinion that varies greatly from Wes's. I fail to see, with all the logic that my pea sized brain can conjure, how that qualifies as "Blowing" away his.

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

> Neither.  I said long ago, and have continued to say, that I don't like to cull, and I only feel good about it when I use them as feeders for my lizards or my arrowanna.  At least that way I feel they have a purpose, and it's not useless death.  The reasons that I cull, are the reasons that you just listed.  they are completely related, and don't contradict at all.


So, for people that don't have lizards or fish to feed these so-called "low value" animals too, you feel that selling them is ok?





> So are you.  You are the puppy mill that chooses not to cull, and sell everything they proudce for whatever they can get for it.  I am the breeder who sells only what he thinks should be sold.  See the difference?  My method keeps animals out of shelters...that was my point sir.


You know absolutely nothing about me. I don't produce one animal more than I can place in a responsible home each season. Whatever I can get for it? Are you out of your mind? You know nothing about my business practices, what I sell, what I give away, what I donate to schools, and the values with which I live my life. 

You are the breeder that has so little regard for the life of an animal, you can spew off a dozens of justifications for killing and show absolutely no remorse. Your methods result in the death of a healthy animal. I see a HUGE difference.




> Don't be foolish.  Why do you breed your animals?  I suspect for the same reasons I do.  Mostly, it's a ton of fun.  The difference is I cull, and you don't.  Thats it.  I don't enjoy it.  I just think it's better for the hobby.  thats all this is about.


I breed ball pythons because I love and respect them. Not just the hottest morphs, not just the ones that I can get the most money for, all of them. I am fortunate enough to be able to take a life long passion and make a career out of it. I'm not wealthy, but I'm happy ... I live my life, raise my children, and run my business with a respect for the blessing that is life and if for one second I thought that killing was a requirement for doing what I do for a living ... I'd stop.





> Are you trying to make me look bad


Nope, you're doing a great job of that all by yourself.





> In your model, they have two purposes.  to make you a quick ten bucks, and to, in most cases, live a subpar existance and maybe even be killed through neglect or euthanized at a shelter after years of neglect.


How dare you. Who do you think you are to lay those claims on me? A quick ten bucks? Are you out of your friggen mind? You don't know anything about me let alone how I sell my animals. I've never sold any animal for a "quick" any amount of money and I work extremely hard to make sure every animal I sell goes to a great home with a responsible owner. I offer all of my customers the opportunity to return the animal to me if they can no longer care for it. I donate animals to fund raisers, schools, and charities and do whatever I can to promote our hobby and the centuries old tradition of keeping animals as pets. I do it not for myself, but for the animals ... they are my passion. It's a concept that I'm certain you'll never understand.





> Man....I am evil.


I think morally bankrupt would be a better description.





> You are.


No, I am not. You are just making things up at this point. It's pathetic really.




> All things being equal, you make more money than I do in that situation.


How would you have any idea what I make? You have absolutely no idea what my business practices are. Weren't you just puffing your chest a couple pages ago about your skills as a debater? And this is how you come at me?





> I do HAVE to cull if I want to keep breeding


That's only because you're either too lazy or inept to find the animals that you feel aren't worthy of your time or attention loving homes. If you feel that a good enough excuse for killing healthy animals, rock on.




> The difference is...I think selling the less valueable ones hurt the hobby...you dont' care, and make your money.


Killing is wrong. People like yourself that have no value for the life of animals that we should be bending over backwards to protect and care for hurt our hobby. People who can look at an animal in terms of its "value" and decide that it's not worth doing everything in their power to find and guarantee that that animal has a good home hurt our hobby. People like YOU hurt our hobby.





> Thats not true.


Yes, it is true. I've worked with PIJAC on their re-homing program and USARK is actively working on a new campaign for re-homing as well. Check your facts.




> Thats sounds great an all, but most of those places that do take them are not no kill shelters.


Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about? Show me one reptile rescue that is putting animals that they take in down. I speak with rescues all over the country week in and week out and they are all happy to take in animals and provide them with forever homes either in their own facility or through screened people that contact them.





> most of the no kill shelters are over run, and continue to be over run, byt people who dont' have the heart to cull their own stock before they "blow it out" for an easy sale.


Again, you have no idea what you're talking about and you're just making stuff up at this point. Almost all reptile rescues are not overrun ... they're short of resources for sure and could really use a lot more donations, but they're making it work with what they have. 

In closing, since you're SO concerned about this hobby, have you taken the time to join USARK and PIJAC yet? If you did great, if not I promise you that it's going to be more helpful than killing animals.


Blessings,

-adam

----------

ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-18-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-29-2009),dr del (09-18-2009),gp_dragsandballs (09-18-2009),justind (09-18-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-18-2009),_waltah!_ (09-18-2009)

----------


## Eventide

> ...anyone who advocates creating tons of animals with no regard to where they will go and who will end up with them is in fact the evil doer.


I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.  This is why most of us here create animals with the intention of trying to find good homes for the ones that will not or may not sell well.  When you keep pushing this argument, you infer that all of us here create "tons of animals with no regard to where they will go."

----------


## ShawnC

> Except that there are a lot of breeders who are trying to change that. Rabernet has given you concrete examples,and I know for a fact that Adam is there LONG after the sale of his animals and that he takes calls from people who have never purchased anything from him just so he can help. There are a lot of other people who share the same views of the two aforementioned people.


I know.  And I have enjoyed talking with those folks.  Like I said, there are always exceptions.  Look, if you are the kind of person who is really good at placing all of your animals, even the ones that are not that easy to place, more power to you.  All I am saying is that if you are not that kindof person, and it's not about just making a quick buck for you, culling is an option thats way better than dumping them for cheap, and hoping they do OK.  The stigma that surrounds culling is illogical, and purely an emotional response because we like snakes.

S~

----------


## JLC

> Let me first explain that I am not trying to start any fights, but I am trying to get some open, and honest debate going on a topic that I feel is long overdue in our Hobby.


You don't want honest debate...you want to proselytize your position. 




> "I love this debate, because it's all about feelings.


And yet you try to tell us to take feelings OUT of the equation? 




> This is a hobby that I enjoy, and I won't jeapordize my hobby to make you guys feel better about killing off unwanted animals (which is good for the hobby).


What makes you think ~I~, or anyone else, needs to "feel better" about you killing off your unwanted animals?




> I would take it one further and argue that, I am doing ugly snakes a service by ending their lives quickly rather than letting them changes hands from owner to owner dozens of times, until eventually they die from abuse or worse, they escape or are let loose


*ASSUMING* such a fate is the destiny of all "ugly" snakes.




> This is what happens to the majority of ugly, unwanted animals, including snakes.


*ASSUMING* this happens to those poor "ugly" animals.




> ...you send tens of thousands of them (unwanted) off each year, to die much more prolonged deaths,


*ASSUMING* this many snakes are affected in this manner each year.  Do you have statistical proof to back it up?  Or your own personal perceptions of the world around you?  The argument that it's "just logical" doesn't hold water.



> but is the reason the hobby is in the state that it's in.


*ASSUMING* the fact that every breeder isn't killing off all their "ugly" or "cheap" snakes is the reason our hobby is in "the state" that it is in?  




> You guys want to see all of the designer stuff ,and you want to work on all the projects for double, triple, even quadruple mutations..


*ASSUMING* that is all we're interested in?




> So when you produce 100 (i don't know if you do or not, its a rhetorical question) normal Ball pythons, and you wholsale them for $10 each to a jobber,


*ASSUMING* everyone who produces 100+ snakes must be wholesaling them to turn a quick buck?




> Why not?  I am nto freezing them or chopping their heads off.  I am choosing to use them as feeders to care for my other animals.


Your methods are not in question at this point...it's your motivation.



> There are exceptions to every rule...but you have to look at this from the majority point of view.


How very fascist of you.  How dare one life be given a chance simply because someone else's life might be hard?




> Why then are you not willing to take the next responsbile step, both for the animals and the hobby, and figure out a reasonalble way to  deal with the offspring...both desirable, and undesirable?


*ASSUMING* the person in question isn't being responsible simply because they don't choose YOUR method of "dealing with undesirable" offspring??? 



> Is ti really a good idea, good for the animals, and good for our hobby to send out tens if not hundreds of thousands of cheap, ugly snakes into a marketplace full of impulse buyers?


So you blame the irresponsible buyers for your inability to respect life enough to give it a chance?




> If you want to breed snakes, you are going to have to deal responsibly with ALL of the offspring...not just the ones that sell well.  Dumping them into the marketplace I think is bad from every angle.  It just sucks to cull them, so we don't do it...but I think we should.  
> 
> S~


*ASSUMING* folks who breed snakes don't already deal with the responsibility of their offspring.  *ASSUMING* they don't kill them just because "it sucks" to do so? ((Personally, my moral compass isn't guided by "what sucks" and "what feels good")) 




> No not at all.  I am saying don't beat me up when I am doing what I think is better for the animals and the hobby.  A debate means you guys argue your points, and I argue mine.  I am supposed to try to convince you...that my job as the debator.


Not doing a very good job of it, but I'm gonna ASSUME that you think you are. 





> I guess my response to this would be that I have seen my animals in other peoples care, and the ones that I am most unhappy about, are always the ones that they value the least ie normals or non-pet snakes.


So what are you doing selling snakes to folks that don't want them in the first place? 




> So unhappy that I feel badly for having sold them in the first place.


I thought emotion wasn't supposed to be involved in this?




> The answer to this would be to keep them all, but thats unreasonable, as I can't do that.


No, the answer is to work a little harder to sell them to folks that actually WANT them.




> I did answer it.  Price is an excellent indicator of perceived value.  Thats your answer.  When you can't sell a snake for $30...that should tell you something...especially if you have 100 of them.


You didn't answer, you *ASSUMED* your perception of price vs. value is the same for everyone else as it is for you.




> And for most of us as breeders, the work part comes when we take all of our undesirable animals and wholesale them in a lot to jobber for a tidy profit correct?  Thats what most...not all..but most of us do with them.


*ASSUMING* you know what everyone else is doing...and that they must be doing the same thing you are. 



> Doesn't that make us alot like a puppy mill?  We are the guys who are providing tons of new animals each year, when there are already more out there than thier needs to be.  Thats kinda my point.


If that is your point of view, then isn't it unethical for you to be breeding at all???




> You are making it sound like we are all this noble group who makes sure our less than valuable animals find great homes...but thats not what we do.


*ASSUMING* "we" do things the way you do.




> Mostlarge scale breeders..people who produce more than 100 animals per year, can not make these claims.


Just remember this one...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> This is also why they do not comment on this thread...they have an image to uphold or it hurts sales.  Thats the facts.


*ASSUMING* their silence is endorsement of your argument.  That's a rich one.




> I am one of those guys, I am just not afraid to tell the truth.


Just remember this one, too... 




> It's patently foolish for us to act like a bunch of saints while the Govt. is trying to take our rights away as keepers and breeders


So instead...we should act like a bunch of freaks who kill whatever doesn't live up to our personal standards? That'll endear us to the masses.




> I am talking about the guys who create hundreds or thousands of animals that their just isn't a market for.


*ASSUMING* there isn't a market for these animals.  




> They dont' do this on purpose...*it's an unfortunate side effect* of producing the animals we are trying to make...morph crosses etc.


This right here seals your point of view and makes it crystal clear to anyone who hadn't already gotten it.  These beautiful animals are nothing more than "an unfortunate side effect" because they're not what YOU wanted.



> I got a very similar reaction on my own forum, and I though it might be fun to discuss it on a larger venue, and see what everyone else thinks.  Thank you all again BTW for making this a positive experience.


Glad we could provide you your evening's entertainment.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 





> I really like hearing the good stories about those guy finding good homes, and good on you for doing that, *but I seriously doubt the above to be true.*


*ASSUMING* Robin is lying just because you can't believe someone would care that much.   




> Now I don't know you, so I am not going to call you a liar,


And yet, you did.




> but you would be the ONLY Ball Python breeder I have ever met that does this for EVERY normal animal.


You really need to get out more.




> And even so, the point still remains.  I'd bet within two years half of those animals are dead anyway.


That's not a POINT...that's YOUR *ASSUMPTION*.





> Of course you can.  It's pure common sense that the cheaper an animal is, the less likely it is to get appropriate long term care, and the more likely it is to die from that improper care.


How many seriously expensive pure bred (and even expensive non-pure breds like "puggles") dogs end up in shelters and rescues?  TONS.  How many "free" rescued dogs live beautiful, happy lives?  Most.  By your logic, ALL mutts should be put down before they even have a chance to find a good home, but those pure bred, expensive ones got it made in the shade.




> There are no absolutes means that there are always exceptions...but a minority of exceptions does not negate the rule.


There is no "rule" here...just your *ASSUMPTIONS*. 




> Start naming the assumptions,


They're bolded.  :Wink: 




> Someone a while ago used an excellent example.  I think is was a $300 Iphone and a $20 calculator?  If you are running in the rain, which one do you care about getting wet the most?  For MANY people, especially impulse buyers, the cheaper something is the easier it is for them to "let it go".


You're *ASSUMING* that "many" folks value life as little as they value dollars.




> Why not curb that flow of animals a little?  Whats the harm?  It makes you feel bad?


What's the harm in killing for convenience???? Seriously???




> I am not a proponent of culling to better the breed.  I never have been.


What's the difference??? 





> I make assumptions regarding mankind, not anyone here.  *Most of the folks here are like me*,...


You just seriously contradicted yourself in this one quote alone.  I can promise you that "most folks" HERE are NOT like you.





> I never said you were liars.  Not once.


You can protest all you want, but you DID call Robin a liar.  Maybe you've flipped around based on testimony that followed her statement, but you made it crystal clear that you did NOT believe her when she first posted.



> I also didnt' make the electronics analogy, one of your own did.  I just re-used it to try and take the emotion away from the thought process to better explain my position.


That's the problem...you're ASSUMING that emotions should not be involved in the argument (even though you stated at the very beginning that they must inevitably be so)  Electronics are NOT the same as animals and the analogy falls flat, at the very least.




> You guys are too emotional about it, and it affects your judgement.


Most of the folks here are truly passionate about the animals they care for...whether it is one, a handful, or hundreds.  Passion and emotion cannot be separated.  So, you're *ASSUMING* that folks are simply not buying your point of view (our judgment being affected) only because we're "too emotional". 



> ... and look at the points I am hitting over and over again, they make sense logically, even if it's a little uncomfortable because we are all snake people.


The reason they don't (and WON'T) make sense is because LIFE has VALUE.  A point YOU fail to grasp no matter how many times others have reiterated it.




> We can help our hobby with a little self control on what animals we release, and in what numbers.  Thats all.


If you really feel this strongly about it...and IF you truly valued the lives you claim to...then rather than kill them for the mere misfortune of being born, you would simply NOT BREED THEM in the first place.





> I am not a big breeder.  Maybe 300 babies per year...thats not that many.


Just go back and see how you defined "big breeder" earlier in the discussion.  And how you described yourself.




> There are nearly half that agree with me, or at least have no problem with it.


HALF?? HERE??  Show me who agrees with you.  While some may have agreed on the principle that under the right circumstances snakes are as much a viable feeder-animal as others.....I dare say that is FAR from agreeing with anything you are saying here.





> Actually.  You said you'd rather let the Iphone get wet than the calculator.


No...he said he'd rather lose a $300 phone than to lose a $20 ball python.  Because LIFE is far more valuable than any electronic trinket, no matter how pricey. 



> Sir, you keep misqouting me.


As you misquoted him.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 



> Yet again, I am not here to garner approval, and I am just saying what tons of people already think, but never talk about on a forum.


WHO are these "tons" of people?  And if no one ever talks about it, how can you *ASSUME* so many of us must be thinking it? 



> ... just keep trying to remind you that it's not about emotions, it's about whats best for the hobby.  And whats best is not always what is the easiest, or most fun.


*ASSUMING* your method is truly what is "best" for the hobby.

----------

_anatess_ (09-20-2009),_bad-one_ (09-18-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-18-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-18-2009),dr del (09-18-2009),_Eventide_ (09-18-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-18-2009),Nae (09-18-2009),rabernet (09-18-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (09-18-2009),_waltah!_ (09-18-2009)

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## ShawnC

> I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.  This is why most of us here create animals with the intention of trying to find good homes for the ones that will not or may not sell well.  When you keep pushing this argument, you infer that all of us here create "tons of animals with no regard to where they will go."


Point taken.  I feel like I keep having to say the ame things over and over, because people jump in without reading everything prior.

S~

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## wilomn

> This "Debate" isn't about winning or losing, no one goes home with a blue ribbon at the eventual end of this thread.   And you didn't "Blow" anyone away, you have a different opinion that varies greatly from Wes's. I fail to see, with all the logic that my pea sized brain can conjure, how that qualifies as "Blowing" away his.


Maybe his "pea" is bigger?

No doubt I shamed him in the past and he's got issues.

Not the first, doubtful he's the last.

Your logic is flawed shawnc. You base much on assumptions that others have proven are wrong. You ignore facts that point out you are in error.

There's no debate. You wanted to argue, you got an argument. 

Now you just look like a sore loser as well as a bit of an ass.

And no, I haven't changed. I'm still calling them like I see them. My integrity is still intact. I'm still glad I'm not you.

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ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-18-2009)

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## ShawnC

> This "Debate" isn't about winning or losing, no one goes home with a blue ribbon at the eventual end of this thread.   And you didn't "Blow" anyone away, you have a different opinion that varies greatly from Wes's. I fail to see, with all the logic that my pea sized brain can conjure, how that qualifies as "Blowing" away his.


He refuses to debate me, and just say "I am right because you are not"  you can't earn respect in an arguement when you don't make any valid points, and just try to insult people.

S~

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## Adam_Wysocki

> culling is an option thats way better than dumping them for cheap, and hoping they do OK.


See, and that's the part that explains why a lot of PM's and TXT's are going back and forth right now referring to you as a sociopath ... how about instead of killing them, you just don't breed. Because if in your mind, "dead" is better than mistreated, abused, neglected, or released ... I can guarantee you that "not born" is even better than dead.  :Good Job: 

-adam

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ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-18-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

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## AaronP

> He refuses to debate me, and just say "I am right because you are not"  you can't earn respect in an arguement when you don't make any valid points, and just try to insult people.
> 
> S~


Like I said, maybe my pea sized brain doesn't understand your comprehension of what is being said here.  I actually have a very different opinion than most about this topic, and I had to "pick sides"  I'd say I would be sitting somewhere in the middle.  I understand both sides of the argument, but I have only had to put down terminally ill animals, and not Healthy animals so frankly I cannot give what I would consider a credible opinion because I have never been put in that predicament.

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

> Not that I am arguing with you Adam, but what do you think PETA believes?


I think that PETA is probably sending this guy and honorary membership as we speak.  :Wink: 

-adam

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## ShawnC

> So, for people that don't have lizards or fish to feed these so-called "low value" animals too, you feel that selling them is ok?


If you don't have the heart to cull them some other way, then I guess thats the only option yeah.







> You know absolutely nothing about me. I don't produce one animal more than I can place in a responsible home each season. Whatever I can get for it? Are you out of your mind? You know nothing about my business practices, what I sell, what I give away, what I donate to schools, and the values with which I live my life.


Remember, at the begining of the thread, I said that "you" refers to everyone who is debating me.  i have to assume you are all, basically one person, in order to argue my pints without going on tangents.  I am not attacking you personally.  I have no idea who you are.




> You are the breeder that has so little regard for the life of an animal, you can spew off a dozens of justifications for killing and show absolutely no remorse. Your methods result in the death of a healthy animal. I see a HUGE difference.


Then this is where we differ as people you and I.  i'd rather cull animals I think are most likely doomed for poor quality lives right at the start.  You'd rather give them all a fighting chance.  I respect that.  I don't agree with it, but I respect it.






> I breed ball pythons because I love and respect them. Not just the hottest morphs, not just the ones that I can get the most money for, all of them. I am fortunate enough to be able to take a life long passion and make a career out of it. I'm not wealthy, but I'm happy ... I live my life, raise my children, and run my business with a respect for the blessing that is life and if for one second I thought that killing was a requirement for doing what I do for a living ... I'd stop.


OK fair enough.  But don't you think, even a little bit, that at some point, producing normals is doing more harm to the hobby than good?  These are the animals mostly likely to not find good permahomes.  






> I donate animals to fund raisers, schools, and charities and do whatever I can to promote our hobby and the centuries old tradition of keeping animals as pets. I do it not for myself, but for the animals ... they are my passion. It's a concept that I'm certain you'll never understand.


I understand it completely, and I commend you.  Do you think I have not done the same?  What you are not hearing from me is that I think that doing too much of that is a bad thing.  What you don't want to hear is that alot of those animals that you donate end up, eventually, in someone elses hands.  You have no control over them at that point.  So why freak out when you nip some of that in the bud by culling via feeding at the outset?  







> I think morally bankrupt would be a better description.


Be careful.  This is your emotions again.  You don't know anything about me other than I have a different approach to my hobby than you.  That one thing about me tells you nothing other than you and I have different philosophies.  Thats all.





> How would you have any idea what I make? You have absolutely no idea what my business practices are. Weren't you just puffing your chest a couple pages ago about your skills as a debater? And this is how you come at me?


I don't know.  Remember, "you" means the typical, sell everyting you can produce to make a buck breeder.  I am not attacking you personally.  And I never said I was a good debator, I just said debate me, don't insult me or dismiss me without stating a point of view.  Thats why I came here, to see what a larger forum thinks about this same topic.







> That's only because you're either too lazy or inept to find the animals that you feel aren't worthy of your time or attention loving homes. If you feel that a good enough excuse for killing healthy animals, rock on.


Thats just mean.  Again, you don't know me.  Because it's snakes, you are getting emotinal and making it personal.  I can assure you that culling is a last resort for any of my animals, but at the end of the day, it's the best thing for the animals, and the hobby IMHO.  Do you know how hard it is to find a permahome for a ten foot, muddied up, ugly brown carpet python who'd like to eat your face?  It's better for the animals to ind purpose as a feeder...just like the thousands of rats I am sure youhave fed over the years.  it's no different at all save for your emotions.






> Killing is wrong.


Yet you probably feed your snakes something other than tofu right?  Cmon...You can't own both sides of that arguement.  You are either for it, or against it.  Again, emotions.  Food is food...scales or not.  fi it keeps from flooding the marketplace, thats even better.

S~

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## AaronP

> I think that PETA is probably sending this guy and honorary membership as we speak. 
> 
> -adam


Nah, he'd have to want to cull EVERYONE'S animals for that to be the case.  This guy is....off, but PETA is down right bat crap crazy!

And to Clarify Shawn, I see where you're coming from in your OP, but I don't understand why you think everyone should agree with you.  The point of a debate is to state the facts and to persuade the audience, this is more of a heated conversation because the majority of the arguments being made are fueled by personal opinions, and by definition an opinion is not a fact.

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## waltah!

I can see why you would want to "debate" this on a site where most don't have a clue who you are. I don't know anyone who would purchase anything from you after reading your comments in this thread.....luckily you're not in it for the money :Wink:  yeah, right.
When I have used the word "you" I mean YOU. Not the "collective" you. But just you.

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ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-18-2009)

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## Raptor

I still say if ya'll send me a snake rack, I'll take those icky normals  :ROFL:

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VegaBP (09-18-2009)

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## VegaBP

You don't even have to send me a rack, you don't want it? I'll give you my number and wire you the money to ship it to me.

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## Hulihzack

I happen to work in a store that gets our local breeders normal balls, normal corns etc.  And guess what, they get more than adequate care and we educate our customers to ensure the snake lives a healthy life.  I know we aren't the only ones who do this, and the fact that the breeder sold them to us for 15 bucks is irrelevent, they're still going to perfectly deserving keepers.  Of course there are some bad stores out there, but to say ALL cheap snakes are better off dead is absurd.  For someone who's been around as long as you, you should at least have seen some evidence of this.

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

> If you don't have the heart to *cull them some other way*, then I guess thats the only option yeah.


I see. So lets be clear. You ARE FOR the wholesale killing of animals that don't have any perceived value in your opinion. It has nothing to do with feeders.




> Remember, at the begining of the thread, I said that "you" refers to everyone who is debating me.  i have to assume you are all, basically one person, in order to argue my pints without going on tangents.  I am not attacking you personally.  I have no idea who you are.


Then don't quote my posts. Because my posts are my own and not from some ambiguous "YOU" that you prefer to address in mass. When you quote me directly, you make it very personal ... that's how forums work FYI.




> Then this is where we differ as people you and I.  i'd rather cull animals I think are most likely doomed for poor quality lives right at the start.  You'd rather give them all a fighting chance.  I respect that.  I don't agree with it, but I respect it.


Why do you even bother keeping animals? I mean, if you can give animals a good quality of life, why can't someone else? Do you think that highly of yourself that you believe that there aren't other people out there competent enough to provide animals with a great home? And why can't you do the work to find those people for the animals that you so easily talk about killing? Isn't busting you butt and tracking down good homes for an animal better than killing it?

You can't have it both ways ... you can't say that there are so many animals out there that we need to kill ... but then support breeding and making more animals. The sheer lack of ethics involved in that kind of logic is mind blowing.




> OK fair enough.  But don't you think, even a little bit, that at some point, producing normals is doing more harm to the hobby than good?


Absolutely not. 5 years ago, over 180,000 ball pythons were imported from Africa, this year that number is well below 100,000 ... I think reducing the numbers of imports through captive breeding is a good thing. If we start killing off normal ball pythons, the import numbers will go back up and animals will be killed needlessly during the import process which is bad. 




> These are the animals mostly likely to not find good permahomes.


That's your opinion. It's not true for the animals that I produce and the animals that many members of this forum produce. We work extremely hard to put our offspring in responsible homes ... and if it doesn't work out, I take them back no questions asked. The same argument you just made for "low value" animals could also be made for the animals that you choose not to cull. Sure, price makes it less likely, but if you're claim is that you can't control how an animal will be treated once you sell it, that claim would apply to ALL of the animals you produce ... so you might as well just "cull" them all.




> Do you think I have not done the same?


No. Your posts have given me the impression that you put zero value on animals that you can't sell for a high value. If that's not the case, you've done a really poor job of communicating otherwise.




> What you don't want to hear is that alot of those animals that you donate end up, eventually, in someone elses hands.


Why do you assume that I'm not involved with the animals that I sell or donate after the fact? Oh, I'm sorry is this the ambiguous global "YOU" that you're speaking to again? I'm confused because you've quoted me here. If it is the global "YOU" then well, that's pretty convenient. If not, you have no idea about my interactions with my customers and people that I donate animals to.




> So why freak out when you nip some of that in the bud by culling via feeding at the outset?


Because killing for the sake of killing is wrong. I'd think that a snake would rather bounce from one home to another a couple times than be dead. To me, it seems like dead is always bad and pretty darn permanent. And it's not just about feeding, lets give that part up ... you stated above that if a animal wasn't available to feed to, some other means of "culling" would be ok with you.




> Be careful.  This is your emotions again.  You don't know anything about me other than I have a different approach to my hobby than you.  That one thing about me tells you nothing other than you and I have different philosophies.  Thats all.


Yes, it is my emotions ... the ending of a life because it has "little value" is an emotional subject to me. You're right, the only thing that I know about you is that you have no problem justifying the killing of a healthy animal. Scary isn't it?




> I don't know.  Remember, "you" means the typical, sell everyting you can produce to make a buck breeder.  I am not attacking you personally.


But again, you did quote me. If you want to speak to the ambiguous YOU, please do it without quoting me directly.




> And I never said I was a good debator


But you did claim with an obvious sense of hubris that you were better than Wes ... do I need to find the post? ... hence attempting to turn this into some type of competition. All I'm saying is that if that's your goal, you're going to have to do a lot better than making stuff up. People kind of see through that BS pretty quick.




> Thats why I came here, to see what a larger forum thinks about this same topic.


Did you really not know that this is the response you would get? Give me a break. You trolled this one out to what? A dozen pages now? Your agenda is painfully obvious, but nice try.




> Thats just mean.


Right. And killing healthy animals is what? Wistful?




> Because it's snakes, you are getting emotinal and making it personal.


If you were talking about KILLING any animal because it wasn't worth much I'd be emotional. I'd hope that most people would. Killing is wrong.




> I can assure you that culling is a last resort for any of my animals


Now your story changes? For the last dozen pages you've been the proud "culler" saving the reptile hobby and giving animals a better existence with death ... now it's a last resort? Nice buckle.




> Do you know how hard it is to find a permahome for a ten foot, muddied up, ugly brown carpet python who'd like to eat your face?


I have no idea. But if you produced it, like it or not you're responsible for it's life and well being. If you can't handle that because it's "too difficult" to sell or keep ... then you should have thought about that before you paired those snakes up. 




> Yet you probably feed your snakes something other than tofu right?  Cmon...You can't own both sides of that arguement.  You are either for it, or against it.  Again, emotions.  Food is food...scales or not.  fi it keeps from flooding the marketplace, thats even better.


But it's not about food. You're flailing now ...

When I asked you directly




> So, for people that don't have lizards or fish to feed these so-called "low value" animals too, you feel that selling them is ok?


you replied




> If you don't have the heart to *cull them some other way*


and advocated killing in a way other than feeding (ie "some other way") as a perfectly acceptable option for low value snakes. 

Your propensity to run back to the "feeding" schtick when you get in a jam is pretty transparent.




> Yet you probably feed your snakes something other than tofu right? Cmon...You can't own both sides of that arguement. You are either for it, or against it. Again, emotions. Food is food...scales or not.


If you were producing snakes for the sake of creating feeders (just like I produce rodents for the sake of being feeders) and feeding them to animals that will only eat snakes (just like my animals only eat rodents) and if you were feeding off ALL of your snakes (just like I feed off ALL of my rodents) I probably wouldn't have a problem with what you're doing. But what you are doing (not the ambiguous YOU, but you specifically) is breeding snakes for profit and killing the ones that are a pain in the rear to place into good homes, plain and simple ... and it's just wrong.

Blessings,

-adam

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ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-18-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-18-2009),dr del (09-18-2009),_Hulihzack_ (09-18-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

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## jknudson

> I can see why you would want to "debate" this on a site where most don't have a clue who you are. I don't know anyone who would purchase anything from you after reading your comments in this thread.....luckily you're not in it for the money yeah, right.
> When I have used the word "you" I mean YOU. Not the "collective" you. But just you.


I have purchased from Shawn, and he's a great guy!  He actually cares a lot about his animals.  I can guarantee he's not in it just for the money.

On the subject of culling.... well, talk to some old school herpers, and you'll see it was much more common than it is now.  There are people that still do it, but don't talk about it because threads like this pop-up and they're made out to be soulless individuals.

I have mixed emotions on the subject, it can have its place.  It's not like Shawn is indiscriminately killing off animals, these are integrate carpets, and when you're dealing with them and selling them the lines can get awfully muddied up.  It's all too easy for someone to misrepresent such animals as "pure" species, which just further muddies up the bloodlines in the US, and with carpets, we're not getting new pure lines from Australia...

The designer carpets have their place for sure, but the problem lies when the non-visual morph siblings are produced, it's awfully hard without knowing the animals background to tell if they're a hybrid or not.  That's the problem of selling them, how can you guarantee that they'll be honestly represented, or if they're sold as pet only, that they'll never be bred?  You can't...that's where I understand Shawn and others' viewpoints.

I know, how is culling an animal better than taking those risks?.... but again, that's the emotional argument and not the logical argument.

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_Adam_Wysocki_ (09-18-2009),justind (09-18-2009)

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## ShawnC

> You don't want honest debate...you want to proselytize your position.


Not true, I have been open an honest with everyone, and have heard a few points of view that gave me pause.  Thats why I am here.  You are proselytizing yours though, by not allowing debate without accusation.





> And yet you try to tell us to take feelings OUT of the equation?


Exactly.  Snake people, more than any other animals type I have ever worked with, seem to get all bent out of shape when you talk about culling.  Which is funny, since they kill without thought when they feed their snakes rats and mice.  I understand the difference between the two, and it boils down to pure emotion.  I am sure you see this also.





> What makes you think ~I~, or anyone else, needs to "feel better" about you killing off your unwanted animals?


Because everytime this has come up, over the last three years, it always boils down to some people wanting other people to not cull because they think it's a despicable practice.  You may not care, but many others do, and get really charged about it.





> *ASSUMING* such a fate is the destiny of all "ugly" snakes.
> *ASSUMING* this happens to those poor "ugly" animals.
> *ASSUMING* this many snakes are affected in this manner each year.  Do you have statistical proof to back it up?  Or your own personal perceptions of the world around you?  The argument that it's "just logical" doesn't hold water.


These assumptions are based on Logic.  It's not unrealistic to make any of the statement I have made.  They are not far fetched in the least when you think it through and don't allow emotion to get in the way.  




> *ASSUMING* the fact that every breeder isn't killing off all their "ugly" or "cheap" snakes is the reason our hobby is in "the state" that it is in?


This isn't an assumption, it's my belief.  I can call your belief that I am wrong an assumption as well.  You and I disagree on this point.  I think there are too many animals being produced every year.  You don't.  These are not assumption, they are opposing opinions.  We can agree to disagree here.  I think it's a huge problem that will come back to haunt us. 




> [everyone who produces 100+ snakes must be wholesaling them to turn a quick buck?


I could be wrong here.  Seriously.  But I attend shows, was just at Daytona as a matter of fact...surf the web...and I see alot of really cheap ball pythons being sold in lots.  Thats not a great sign thats it's not happening alot is it?





> [How very fascist of you.  How dare one life be given a chance simply because someone else's life might be hard?


OK.  We are talking about animals here, not people.  This makes no sense. Do you eat chicken?  How very facist of you to decide to eat that chicken, it could live a happy life elsewhere...C'mon....





> [So you blame the irresponsible buyers for your inability to respect life enough to give it a chance?


You are asking me if I feel it's right to make more animals suffer prolonged abuse so that 1 may live a good life?  No i don't think it is.  I don't think it' unreasonable to assume that 6 out of ten animals probably die before they should due to neglect, especially when they are throw away ten dollar snakes.  I don't think it's cool for those 6 to suffer, for 4 to survive.   I think it more fair to just allow them a swift, clean end to their life before it begins, than to send them out into the world and hope for the best, which I think is a cop out.  Again, we disagree on a point, which is cool.





> [*ASSUMING* folks who breed snakes don't already deal with the responsibility of their offspring.  *ASSUMING* they don't kill them just because "it sucks" to do so? ((Personally, my moral compass isn't guided by "what sucks" and "what feels good"))


None of his is an assumption either.  It's also my opinion.  Why do you (meaning your side of the arguement) think its ethical to mass produce snakes that have a disadvantage at birth because they are less desirable, and will more than likely, at some point be kept in poor conditions that result in abandonment or death?




> No, the answer is to work a little harder to sell them to folks that actually WANT them.


Which you are assuming everyone does.  Thats not the case.  Most don't.  thats not an assumption, it's a fact.  I go to the same shows, see the same vendors, and see the same online adds.  I see the same bins, filled with dozens of babies for sale to anyone with wallet.  For what pupose?





> You didn't answer, you *ASSUMED* your perception of price vs. value is the same for everyone else as it is for you.


Again, not an assumption.  The way people value things in this country, even snakes, is by putting a dollar value on it.  Thats a fact, not an assumption.




> If that is your point of view, then isn't it unethical for you to be breeding at all???


Probably.  But I love this hobby more than I dislike culling a few animals that need to be culled.




> So instead...we should act like a bunch of freaks who kill whatever doesn't live up to our personal standards? That'll endear us to the masses.


Much more so than allowing them to escape into the everglades and cause massive, worldwide critisism yes.  Sorry, but it's the truth.  It sucks, but it's the truth.  Balls are not Burms, I get that, but shelters are full of ball Pythons...you don't think that makes us look bad when any 12 year old can go buy one with no education, no caging, no nothing? Just ten bucks and a  deli cup...thats it?  That makes us look terrible.





> *ASSUMING* there isn't a market for these animals.


This isn't an assumption.  Normal baby male ball pythons are very, very cheap.  Any cheaper, and they'd be free, which means there is no longer a market.  Thats a bad thing. 





> [This right here seals your point of view and makes it crystal clear to anyone who hadn't already gotten it.  These beautiful animals are nothing more than "an unfortunate side effect" because they're not what YOU wanted.


I challenge you to go onto youtube and watch some videos of people hatching their ball python clutches.  Listen to the disappointment when they get a normal that hatches out "Aw man!"  You turn this on me like I am unique?!?  Ball Python people produce more spin off normals in the persuit of morphs than any other species by far.  (except maybe corns)  I have no problem with this persuit.  I am just man enough to admit that when I do it, I create less than desirable animals as well, and I am willing to deal with them right away, rather than take the easy way out, and blast them into the market place for cheap and no longer be responsible, and make some cash to boot.  I think I morally have the high ground here.  You disagree.  Thats cool.




> [Robin is lying just because you can't believe someone would care that much.


Sigh...Assumed...I never said she was lying.  I said I didn't know her well enough to make that judgement, and I commended her if it were true.  Most people don't take that time.  It's a huge commitment. 




> [You really need to get out more.


Heh.  OK.  Insults are nice.  Emotions...Your setting yourself back...be careful.




> How many seriously expensive pure bred (and even expensive non-pure breds like "puggles") dogs end up in shelters and rescues?  TONS.


Not many.  Way more mutts or extremely common breds (hey like normal ball pythons!)than pure animals in shelters.  And even some pure animals are so heavily bred that they are worse than mutts.  How many $50 pit bulls ads can i find today in the paper....




> How many "free" rescued dogs live beautiful, happy lives?  Most.


This is a Lie, or at the very least, a regional difference.  Call any Shelter in this area, and they euthanize far more animals than are sucessfully adopted out.




> You're *ASSUMING* that "many" folks value life as little as they value dollars.


Again..not an assumption.  The value of a life has everything to do with what you will pay for it.  If I told you I had a turtle, and unless you paid me a $1000 ransom, I'd kill it...would you pay me $1000?  No way...I guess you don't value a life at $1000...how about $100?  $10?  $1?  You'd feel really bad if I killed it, but you don't really value it that much do you?  These are animals, not people.  Your are letting emotions affect your thought process again.




> You can protest all you want, but you DID call Robin a liar.  Maybe you've flipped around based on testimony that followed her statement, but you made it crystal clear that you did NOT believe her when she first posted.


Read the post.  I said, "I don't know you well enough to call you a liar"  that pretty much means I can't call her a Liar.  I didn't flip one bit.  My post has sat unchanged since I wrote it.  You just don't like that I pointed out that her position was a very unique one.  Most folks don't do what she does.  Please read WHAT I write, not INTO what I write.




> That's the problem...you're ASSUMING that emotions should not be involved in the argument (even though you stated at the very beginning that they must inevitably be so)  Electronics are NOT the same as animals and the analogy falls flat, at the very least.


Thats my points exactly.  This topic gets so nuts because people bring unrealistic emotions.  Most of you eat meat.  You feed animals to other animals already, but once you talk about killing baby snakes, you freak out.  Thats emotion.  From outside the box, it's no different what you feed to what, or why.

As far as electronics being different, they are not at all if you take that emotion out of the equation.  You already assign a dollar value to living things.  I just proved that to you above.  Remember the ransomed turtle?  





> Most of the folks here are truly passionate about the animals they care for...whether it is one, a handful, or hundreds.  Passion and emotion cannot be separated.  So, you're *ASSUMING* that folks are simply not buying your point of view (our judgment being affected) only because we're "too emotional".


Thats a crock of hoey.  Oh I am sure there are some folks here who have real, emotional attachments to their animals in smaller numbers.  But I dont' believe that the guys with hundreds of breeder animals "love them each in there special way"  C'mon with that.  You love them because you like working with them...and they make you some money.  Lets be honest here.  you insinuate that I am not passionate?  I am just as deeply interested in the propogation of the species that I work with as you are.  We just disagree on how to handle the offspring we both produce that are the spin offs of our breeding projects.  I think it's better to cull some, you thinkit's best to sell them all.   thats it.  Thats what this whole arguement is about.  Other than that, we are the same.




> The reason they don't (and WON'T) make sense is because LIFE has VALUE.  A point YOU fail to grasp no matter how many times others have reiterated it.


Like the Turtle?  You fail to grasp that you are a hypocrit.  Chickens have value.  So do cows.  Fish have value.  So do Deer, and Pigs...Do you eat any of those things?  Rats and Mice have value.  Buts thats OK right, because they are dying for a purpose.  Well in the current common model of python reproduction, we take animals and breed them with no natural choice of mates (because it benefits us), we then set up optimal incubation setups, and assist hatch all the eggs so none die in the eggs (because it benefits us).  Then, we take each animal, if it's really naturally fit or not (we dont really know, because we artificailly manipulated the whole process) and sell them (because we value their lives, but really because it benefit us).  Read that a couple of times and let me know if the sarcasm isn't getting through.  Please, please please be honest with yourself and get off your soap box.  





> Just go back and see how you defined "big breeder" earlier in the discussion.  And how you described yourself.


Again, I was always taught to try and be humble.  I breed a bunch of snakes out of my garage.  I wouldn't call myself a big breeder..but I probably should be considered one yes.





> HALF?? HERE??  Show me who agrees with you.  While some may have agreed on the principle that under the right circumstances snakes are as much a viable feeder-animal as others.....I dare say that is FAR from agreeing with anything you are saying here.


Go look.  I have not said anything other than one thing, over andover.  It's OK to cull your animals.  It's ethically not any different than feeding your snakes feeder rodents.   I gave you the resons why I cull, but thats not the point.  The point is that ethically, it's a completely ethical practice as compared to everything else we do as hobbiests.






> No...he said he'd rather lose a $300 phone than to lose a $20 ball python.  Because LIFE is far more valuable than any electronic trinket, no matter how pricey.


Unless it's a turtle?






> WHO are these "tons" of people?  And if no one ever talks about it, how can you *ASSUME* so many of us must be thinking it?


Like I said.  I am not new to the hobby.  I have had this discussion on the internet, and in person over the years with many different people.  The breakdown is always about the same.  This place hasn't been any different, though thee have been some good points made.  I'd link you to some of the threads from years ago, but I am not sure that allowed.




> *ASSUMING* your method is truly what is "best" for the hobby.


I think that it is (Opinion, not assumption). Thats why I brought it here.  When you look at keeping numbers of less desirable animals down, I think thats a good thing.  I wish I could continue to work on my projects without creating these animals, I really do.  But since i can't, I think dealing with them right away is a good, long term solution, even if it's not the most fun.

S~

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## ShawnC

> Maybe his "pea" is bigger?
> 
> No doubt I shamed him in the past and he's got issues.
> 
> Not the first, doubtful he's the last.
> 
> Your logic is flawed shawnc. You base much on assumptions that others have proven are wrong. You ignore facts that point out you are in error.
> 
> There's no debate. You wanted to argue, you got an argument. 
> ...


Look.  Debate me, or go away.  Please, I encourage anyone to go back and read my exchanges with this person and let me know if I am being unreasonable.  I asked, several times, to point something out that we could discuss.  Rather than do that, he uses phrases like "you are wrong, therefor, your arguement is invalid...."  Um...what?  Debate me, or go away.  I already showed you to be not up to the task.

And no, you never did anything to me, so I have nothing against you.  But, as I have said, I have been around for a long while, and I remember people like you.  People who pontificate a position with no substance to back it.  You crack me up, and have built a reputation for yourself that stuck in my brain.  Thats a goo dthing.  8-)

I a not the only person who has noticed this BTW.  Would you like me to send you the PMs that I have gotten since the thread started thanking me for putting you in your place?  

S~

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## ShawnC

> I happen to work in a store that gets our local breeders normal balls, normal corns etc.  And guess what, they get more than adequate care and we educate our customers to ensure the snake lives a healthy life.  I know we aren't the only ones who do this, and the fact that the breeder sold them to us for 15 bucks is irrelevent, they're still going to perfectly deserving keepers.  Of course there are some bad stores out there, but to say ALL cheap snakes are better off dead is absurd.  For someone who's been around as long as you, you should at least have seen some evidence of this.


I have.  But also having worked in similar stores...it's ussually not the store that is a problem.  It's the customers.  As I said...its' not abuse that happens right away...its the abuse that comes from apathy, after the whole "new pet snake" thing wears off.  I used to see alot of that, and we used to take alot of animals back because of it.  But for every one we got back, there were ten we dind't get back, and I bet more than have of those ended badly.  Can I prove it?  no, it's just a gut feeling.  Like I said, maybe I just lost faith in humanity at some level?

S~

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## ShawnC

> I can see why you would want to "debate" this on a site where most don't have a clue who you are. I don't know anyone who would purchase anything from you after reading your comments in this thread.....luckily you're not in it for the money yeah, right.
> When I have used the word "you" I mean YOU. Not the "collective" you. But just you.


Actually I debated it on my own site, several times, over the last three years.  I posted here because I like the forum, and I'd like some fresh perspectives because in person, I meet all sorts of people who agree with me, but from behind a keyboard, I am very often one of the few to admit to it.  I was hoping I'd find it a little different here, but I didn't, and thats not a surprise.   

I said I am not culling for money.  Again...read what I write, not whatyou think you read.  That doesn't make sense to cull for money in th eshort term.  Of couse I make some cash from my snakes.  Thats part of the fun of it.  So do alot of you.  Nothing wrong with that.  Too bad they eat so much!

S~

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## AaronP

> Look.  Debate me, or go away.


Sorry but this is killing me, you don't debate someone, you debate _with_ someone! And they don't debate you, they debate _with_ you. So don't say "Debate me, or go away" say "Have a debate with me, or go away."  Use the word properly or please don't use it at all!   :Wag of the finger:

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_Ash_ (09-18-2009)

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## irishanaconda

ok honestly i did not read every persons comments... i do however agree if i was a falconer and my falcon only ate ball pythons for whatever reason i dont see it being wrong to feed them ball pythons if it was what it wanted and also cost effective. and on that note .... when i post a youtube feeding vid, u know how many rat lovers post negitive stuff and rate my vid 1 star? i honestly cant be a hippocrate and say dont feed your animals ball pythons when i get the same damn thing from the rat lovers

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## Ash

What I don't understand is what the OP thinks he is saving the animal from when he throws it into an aquarium with a carnivorous fish and allows it to be torn to pieces in front of him. There's something genuinely creepy about that to me, especially when people normally own them because they love them. It's not really the same as feeders, because there was no personal attachment to those in the first place. Animals are not all just pieces of meat in my opinion, and I don't believe anybody in their right mind can say that with real conviction. From an objective point of view yes, but a person making that argument still wouldn't throw a puppy in with a burmese, and if not, then they couldn't really believe it to be true. What further confuses me is that the OP can then turn around, get on the computer, and pretend like his motives are not related to finances or business at all; try to pitch it as a morally responsible husbandry practice to a community who is fanatical about how beautiful and wonderful these animals are. What kind of reaction would you expect? 

Anyway, one argument I think you've been making since the beginning that I haven't seen anybody bring up yet is that somehow, by destroying the ugly snakes early on, you're preventing inexperienced keepers from breeding them and polluting the gene pool. Is that what you mean by "it's for the good of the hobby"? With regard to that, I honestly believe that anybody who knows what they're doing pertaining to genetics and breeding would be able to spot a poor investment animal a mile away; they wouldn't allow their high-end breeding stock to be contaminated with something that had serious problems, and those are the kinds of people that deserve to be successful in this business in the first place. Only the get-rich quick types and irresponsible kids who don't care enough to do real research would buy into an 'ugly' snake with intent to breed, which in the end would make the high-end, selectively bred stuff coming from responsible people all the more valuable. A market saturated with "defective" stock might, in the end, be GOOD for the hobby, especially for those people who actually care about, and put effort into what they're producing. It would make beautiful, well-bred reptiles a rare and valuable thing, and make good keepers really stand out. 

I also suspect that rather than really caring about the animal's well-being, you'd just rather kill a "ten foot, muddied up, ugly brown carpet python" than sell it to somebody, for the fear that if you did, they would only later realize what an unpleasant thing it is and then associate the negative experience with your good name. So, what I think you're doing is a business practice, driven by the profit-machine. Killing it means you don't have to clean it, feed it, advertise it, or ever think about it again. It also means you spend less money on real food for whatever you feed them off to. Are you sure things like that have nothing to do with your decision to kill your snakes?

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_cinderbird_ (09-18-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

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## Eventide

But see, what a lot of people here are trying to say is that breeding snakes _for the sole purpose of feeders_ is okay, but breeding snakes to sell and then using the unwanted/ugly ones as feeders is completely different and not okay.  Chickens, pigs, cows--all those fall under the "bred for food" category, like feeder mice or feeder snakes.  However, a lot of people here (myself included) feel that breeding snakes to sell and then culling the less desirable (but healthy!) ones is wrong.  

The key here is purpose.  If all the snakes are going to be feeders, then they all suffer the same fate.  If some are feeders and some are not, then things get fuzzy.  We start playing God:  this snake lives because it's worth a decent amount of money (whatever we define "decent" to be), but this snake doesn't because it's not worth enough (again, whatever we define "enough" to be) or because it _might_ suffer terribly depending on who gets it.  To those of us who truly love snakes, killing one for either of these reasons is wrong.  It's not the snake's fault it was born a normal--it was pure chance.  A roll of the proverbial dice.  Why should the snake not have a chance to live a long, healthy life just because it's a normal?

The point is not whether using a snake as a feeder is right or wrong; the point is the _reason_ behind using the snake as a feeder.

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_Ash_ (09-18-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-18-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

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## wilomn

> I a not the only person who has noticed this BTW.  Would you like me to send you the PMs that I have gotten since the thread started thanking me for putting you in your place?  
> 
> S~


Yes. Both of them if you could.

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ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-18-2009),_waltah!_ (09-18-2009)

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## AaronP

> What I don't understand is what the OP thinks he is saving the animal from when he throws it into an aquarium with a carnivorous fish and allows it to be torn to pieces in front of him. There's something genuinely creepy about that to me, especially when people normally own them because they love them.


I have a problem with this statement.  Regardless of what the OP does with his animals this seems to imply that by feeding off an animal that is traditionally thought of as a pet there is something creepy about you.   I used to keep gold fish as a child, in my teenage years I owned red ear sliders and part of their diet was, in fact, goldfish.  And yes I admit I enjoyed watching them chase down and eat the fish, the turtles were my pet and the fish was their food.

That said I know people who keep large snakes, retic, burms, african rocks, etc.  They also happen to breed guinea pigs and rabbits.   Both of these animals are selectively bred and sold but sometimes those animals don't exhibit the traits that people are looking for when buying those animals.  Most of those guinea pigs and rabbits are fed off to their large snakes, and the remaining "feeder" animals are frozen and sold to local pet shops.  Does that put them in the wrong? 

I personally keep a pet guinea pig, his name is Toby, and I love him to death.  But in the future if I acquired a large snake that needed guinea pigs for food, I have no qualms acquiring the food that animal needs to thrive.  Does that mean I will feed off Toby?  No but I have no issues with feeding off animals that are traditionally kept as pets (Within legal limits...you can't exactly buy a guinea pig from Petco and legally feed it to a snake...you actually sign a form that says you WON'T do that).

I'm not defending what the OP does with his animals, frankly they're his and I have no control over what he does with them.  But in the same breathe I don't want people to demonize those who feed off animals traditionally thought of as pets.


Besides...no one would feed a puppy to a burm.....a Burm wouldn't touch a puppy! 


Okay that was in poor taste, but seriously it's illegal anyway, I'm pretty sure that's considered animal cruelty.

----------


## pavlovk1025

Too many pages...eyes hurt....

My opinion for what little it's worth...

Feeding off your hybrids/unwanteds to save the hobby is a load of crap.
Feeding them off because they double as feeders is fair.
Feeding them off because they're not morphs or the result you wanted is jacked up.
Killing them and taking lives for no purpose other than saving yourself operating costs...wrong on all accounts and borderline cruel.

See, my whole thing with this is that he actually has animals that eat snakes, and he doesn't just kill his "unwanteds", he feeds them off.
Breeding for morphs in his business, he creates snakes he can sell and snakes he needs to put more effort into selling. "Fortunately" for him, he has animals that are snake eaters and he can save money on buying food for these animals by feeding his snakes that he feels arent worth his effort. Now, that may be wrong, but it makes sense. I think Id have an issue with this if he just took up all his normals/hybrids and stuck them in the freezer and then disposed of them because they require too much effort to house and feed. 

So, short version....he breeds snakes, creates snakes to sell and some to breed, and feeds off the rest. Love of the hobby is BS, love of the animals is BS, the intention behind the breeding is blatanly obvious...$. 

And to put it in the perspective I see it through:
In terms of ASF rats that I breed:
Undesirables (males, females of a color I already have) are sentenced to death by snake. 
Desirables(females of varying colors from what I already have) are kept and found new housing away from general population.
I relate to the OP based off of that. 

And for the record, I could never feed a snake to anything.

KUDOS to all for not taking this and getting it sentenced to QT btw.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Ok, I had a very good point here, but it was apparently lost in the noise.  I'll try again.

Ball pythons are BEING IMPORTED INTO THE US IN HUGE NUMBERS.  Every year.  Most of them are captive-hatched babies, but you get some wild caught animals coming in as well.

The above WILL NOT change if breeders produce fewer normals.  In fact, imports will naturally increase, as the value of those imports will increase, because the current demand is more than enough to account for the supply.

People like ball pythons.  People routinely pay between 60 to 80 bucks for a normal male ball python, to a pet store.  That ball python is usually an imported CH snake.  Perhaps from where you are standing, 60 bucks is a disposable amount of money, but I think it's actually a fair chunk of pocket change, and the average person will not deliberately allow harm to come to an animal with a price tag that high.  The fact these animals sell for $8 apiece wholesale doesn't mean that's what they retail for!

An increase in the production of captive bred snakes in the US MAY mean a reduction in the number of imports, as it becomes less financially sound to import them.  The only way to reduce the number of imports is to make ball pythons plentifully available in the US for those who want them.  Captive bred animals are generally healthier and fare better than CH babies do.  By increasing the supply of CBB babies, we may be leaving more ball pythons in the wild--one can hope.  If you decrease that supply, more balls will most certainly be yanked from the wild, because this entire business follows the law of supply and demand.  It doesn't matter if YOU think there are too many low-priced balls on the market--the market clearly disagrees!

Yes, I do sell my normal males to the pet trade.  I'll probably even wind up selling some normal females to the pet trade, eventually.  I consider doing so to be beneficial to the hobby (as more people who want pets get healthy snakes rather than parasitized wild caught ones), and beneficial to ball pythons in general (while wild populations are stable, they certainly won't stay that way if they pull more of them from the wild to meet an increasing demand).

Do some people mistreat animals?  Yes.  Should people be prevented from having animals because some of them MIGHT mistreat them?  That's exactly the mentality our hobby is battling at the moment!  The right to NOT be lumped in with people who commit crimes.  The solution is education, not banning, not restricting supply/access.  

Those who are just starting out should have a good experience, buying an animal that is already healthy and doesn't require more than a routine checkup rather than meds and intensive care.  Sick parasite-ridden animals in pet stores hurt our hobby.  They make the entire industry look cruel.  We should do all we can to make imports obsolete.

So, please address THIS argument--I have explained why NOT selling normal males is BAD for ball pythons, and BAD for the hobby.

----------

Crimpy (09-18-2009),_Eventide_ (09-18-2009)

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## abuja

I can see valid points in both opinions. 

If you had a dreamsicle and a normal and you had to choose which one you'd rather keep and the other one dies, you'd keep the dreamsicle.

Killing an animal because you're making assumptions about what will happen to it is just plain stupid. You don't know for sure where it will go, and if it will get taken care of.

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## JLC

Shawn, a big part of the problem with this "debate" is we're coming at it with two completely different paradigms about life.  

I believe life has value beyond whatever random $$$ might be associated with it.  I believe part of that value, for some lives, is to be food for others....even IF some of those animals are snakes.  

You believe that because it's OK to allow an animal to die for the purpose of becoming food, then it is therefore OK to kill an animal for whatever purpose or convenience suits your fancy. 

The difference might seem subtle, but it's worlds apart, and the two cannot be reconciled.  You simply can't comprehend my point of view...and frankly, I can't yours, either.  I can follow your arguments...sure...but I don't believe your "logic" can justify the lack of value that you place on life in general. 

And that value, or lack of it, is entirely your call to make...as I've already mentioned much earlier in this thread.  They're your animals, and you'll do with them as you see fit.  And I never said no one else does it.  I've no doubt that many do.  The "industry" is rife with people who are in it for the money and care little for the lives they choose to bring into the world.  And I might even be surprised (sadly so) by the discovery of the truth about what some "big breeders" do behind closed doors.  BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT, NO MATTER WHO IS DOING IT.

YOU are the one being hypocritical, by your own words.  YOU decide that for some animals, simply being born is a fate worse than death...and yet YOU willingly make the choice to continue to bring as many of these "unwanted" animals into the world as is necessary to meet your own hobby goals. 

You can dismiss all the opposing arguments you wish as "too emotional" or "misinterpreting your words"...but that doesn't change the fact that many, many people are morally opposed to the way you choose to run your business.  No amount of justification or "debate" is going to change that.

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_catawhat75_ (09-18-2009),dr del (09-18-2009),_Eventide_ (09-18-2009),gp_dragsandballs (09-18-2009),_jglass38_ (09-18-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009),rabernet (09-18-2009),_waltah!_ (09-18-2009)

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## WingedWolfPsion

I'll also state this--I don't necessarily think there is something wrong with feeding baby carpet or ball pythons to other animals, if that is what those other animals eat.  Rats, mice, rabbits, cows, sheep, whatever--they can all be part of the food chain.

My argument is with the idea that this is somehow better for the animal being fed off than going to a pet home would be.  I think that's an absurd idea.  I also think that a baby male normal ball python is an expensive meal for an arowana, when compared with feeder fish.  He dined well on a meal worth at LEAST $8.  (Probably $20 if you actually put a few local ads up).  And somewhere out there, a newbie herper bought a CH snake instead, and it died, and turned them off from keeping any more reptiles.

Is it unethical to feed them off?  No.  Is it ethical?  Nope.  Is it the right thing to do for the hobby?  Absolutely not--if the general public caught wind of such practices they would tar us all with the same brush and call the whole reptile nation cruel.  It doesn't matter that mice are used as feeders all the time, there are some animals that people find it acceptable to feed/eat, and some that they don't.  Pets are in the 'don't' category.  Even with rodents, people would be upset with the idea of feeding off a tame pet rat, instead of a feeder that was never handled.  Logical or not, that's the way it is.

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## ShawnC

> pitch it as a morally responsible husbandry practice to a community who is fanatical about how beautiful and wonderful these animals are. What kind of reaction would you expect?


I bring it here because this is the place that it matters themost.  IfO go to any other forum and talk about what we do, I'll get alot of people who agree with me, but thats only because they think any good snake is a dead snake.  Here, we all like snakes, but we also agree that our hobby in under serious threat, I am am pointing out that we could be hurting ourselves by what we are doing, and offered what I do (and what others have done or do, and don't like to talk about) as a solution.






> A market saturated with "defective" stock might, in the end, be GOOD for the hobby, especially for those people who actually care about, and put effort into what they're producing. It would make beautiful, well-bred reptiles a rare and valuable thing, and make good keepers really stand out.


In the case of carpet pythons this isn't true.  The reason is, unlike ball Pythons, we can't just go get more from the wild.  We have to work with what we have.  The more we muddy up the gene pool, the harder we make it to keep any line of carpet pure.  There are guys who make a good living selling well documented animals, but they will be the first to tell you that it's everyone else indiscriminately selling hybrid offspring for cheap that are ulitmately sold as a "jungle" or a "coastal" that in fact causes the problem.  As a by product...when there are ALOT of these animals out they...they have to end up someplace...and thats usually not a happy ending for the snake once people realize what they have is not what they thought.




> I also suspect that rather than really caring about the animal's well-being, you'd just rather kill a "ten foot, muddied up, ugly brown carpet python" than sell it to somebody, for the fear that if you did, they would only later realize what an unpleasant thing it is and then associate the negative experience with your good name. So, what I think you're doing is a business practice, driven by the profit-machine. Killing it means you don't have to clean it, feed it, advertise it, or ever think about it again.  Are you sure things like that have nothing to do with your decision to kill your snakes?


Not at all.  By the time that happens, most people have no idea who produced it.  When I wholesale a bunch of mutt babies...they get sold again, and again.  My name is never a part of the discussion, and is part of the problem.  I am just a supplier at that point, not a breeder.  I also don't feed off larger snakes because I can't stomach it.  It would require me whacking them on the head r some other such thing, and I can't stomach that.  Besides, it a useless death, which I don't feel really good about.





> So, what I think you're doing is a business practice, driven by the profit-machine. Killing it means you don't have to clean it, feed it, advertise it, or ever think about it again.  Are you sure things like that have nothing to do with your decision to kill your snakes?


So is selling 100 of them at once on the cheap to get rid of them.  It does exactly the same thing, and I actually make more money, not less.  

S~

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## ShawnC

> But see, what a lot of people here are trying to say is that breeding snakes _for the sole purpose of feeders_ is okay, but breeding snakes to sell and then using the unwanted/ugly ones as feeders is completely different and not okay.  Chickens, pigs, cows--all those fall under the "bred for food" category, like feeder mice or feeder snakes.  However, a lot of people here (myself included) feel that breeding snakes to sell and then culling the less desirable (but healthy!) ones is wrong.


I totally get that.  But the "why" it is wrong is an emotional response that's illogical.  Thats my point.  It feels wrong because we all like snakes, but, it's not.  I am not saying you have to do this.  I am saying you not should be stigmatized, or feel like an asshat if you are doing it.  Thats who those who do, never talk about it.

S~

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## Denial

Yes I would give the burm a home for the rest of its natural  life. Should I pm you my address?

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## Freakie_frog

> So is selling 100 of them at once on the cheap to get rid of them.  It does exactly the same thing, and I actually make more money, not less.  
> 
> S~



Wrong!!! Killing them *guarantee's* their life will never be anything more than a few quick breaths, bright lights, funny sounds and then man it's cold, Oh I hurt..and then darkness.. 

Selling them at least gives them the chance to make some child happy, educate some no-snake person, spark the passion that causes a life long career in herpticulture. 

Cull them all you want, tell your self what ever helps you sleep at night..But when the dust settles and all bets are off your killing healthy animals for the simple reason that you didn't like the way they turned out. 

And that is a down right BS reason to end a life.

Last note if you don't want to try and sell it.." DON'T BREED FOR IT"

----------

ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-18-2009),dr del (09-18-2009),_Eventide_ (09-18-2009),gp_dragsandballs (09-18-2009),_jglass38_ (09-18-2009),_Jyson_ (09-18-2009),NorthernRegius (09-18-2009),_waltah!_ (09-18-2009)

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## ShawnC

[QUOTE=pavlovk1025;1163490]

So, short version....he breeds snakes, creates snakes to sell and some to breed, and feeds off the rest. Love of the hobby is BS, love of the animals is BS, the intention behind the breeding is blatanly obvious...$. 
[/QOUTE]

Not what I said.  Its Blantantly obvious that you have not read what I have said, over and over.  I feed of a very small percentage of my animals that I feel have little to no chance of leading quality lives in captivity (this actually costs me money).  I produce normals that I opt to keep much more often than I produce animals that I choose to cull.  I bet I cull less than 10% of what we produce in normal hybrid offspring.  Please read what I say...not say what you think I mean.

S~

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## 2moores

:Snake:  :Mad:  :Confused:  :Snake:

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## wilomn

> I a not the only person who has noticed this BTW.  Would you like me to send you the PMs that I have gotten since the thread started thanking me for putting you in your place?  
> 
> S~


I'm still waiting.....

So, either your offer was full of crap, something you seem to have great familiarity with, you're a liar and don't have any, or you're a coward on top of being morally bankrupt.

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ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009)

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## ShawnC

> Ok, I had a very good point here, but it was apparently lost in the noise.  I'll try again.
> 
> Ball pythons are BEING IMPORTED INTO THE US IN HUGE NUMBERS.  Every year.  Most of them are captive-hatched babies, but you get some wild caught animals coming in as well.
> 
> The above WILL NOT change if breeders produce fewer normals.  In fact, imports will naturally increase, as the value of those imports will increase, because the current demand is more than enough to account for the supply.
> 
> People like ball pythons.  People routinely pay between 60 to 80 bucks for a normal male ball python, to a pet store.  That ball python is usually an imported CH snake.  Perhaps from where you are standing, 60 bucks is a disposable amount of money, but I think it's actually a fair chunk of pocket change, and the average person will not deliberately allow harm to come to an animal with a price tag that high.  The fact these animals sell for $8 apiece wholesale doesn't mean that's what they retail for!
> 
> An increase in the production of captive bred snakes in the US MAY mean a reduction in the number of imports, as it becomes less financially sound to import them.  The only way to reduce the number of imports is to make ball pythons plentifully available in the US for those who want them.  Captive bred animals are generally healthier and fare better than CH babies do.  By increasing the supply of CBB babies, we may be leaving more ball pythons in the wild--one can hope.  If you decrease that supply, more balls will most certainly be yanked from the wild, because this entire business follows the law of supply and demand.  It doesn't matter if YOU think there are too many low-priced balls on the market--the market clearly disagrees!
> ...


This is an excellent point.  I would like to see us not import at all, and the value of captive bred normals be at a higher point, to prevent them from becoming impulse buys.  Right now, we are doing BOTH.  You can't stop the importation until you get buyers to be willing to pay more for a captive hatched animal, which is next to impossible to do when you are competeing with imports.  Thats where some changes can be made as well.  I completely agree with you.  Education would be our only option at this point.  What would probably work best is limiting the supply of normals, but raising the price on them, and teaching people why they are more expensive than an imports.  Right now we are trying to beat import pricing...which is sort of counter productive I think.

S~

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## ShawnC

I am going to duck out for a while.  maybe a day or so, and see how things evolve.  I am at work now, and I am tryingt to respond to people and get things done at the same time, and it's not working well :Embarassed:   So, I am going to take a break until tonight or this weekend.  

I really do appreciate those of you who are going over this with me.  Like I said, it's an interesting topic becuase people get so wound up, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it.  Thank you Admin for allowing this thread to happen, and continue, and thanks for noone gettinsg warnings when they got a little worked up, and managed to keep it from exploding is a foolish post.  I am going to get some work done.  :Please: 

S~

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## ShawnC

> Shawn, a big part of the problem with this "debate" is we're coming at it with two completely different paradigms about life.  
> 
> I believe life has value beyond whatever random $$$ might be associated with it.  I believe part of that value, for some lives, is to be food for others....even IF some of those animals are snakes.  
> 
> You believe that because it's OK to allow an animal to die for the purpose of becoming food, then it is therefore OK to kill an animal for whatever purpose or convenience suits your fancy. 
> 
> The difference might seem subtle, but it's worlds apart, and the two cannot be reconciled.  You simply can't comprehend my point of view...and frankly, I can't yours, either.  I can follow your arguments...sure...but I don't believe your "logic" can justify the lack of value that you place on life in general. 
> 
> And that value, or lack of it, is entirely your call to make...as I've already mentioned much earlier in this thread.  They're your animals, and you'll do with them as you see fit.  And I never said no one else does it.  I've no doubt that many do.  The "industry" is rife with people who are in it for the money and care little for the lives they choose to bring into the world.  And I might even be surprised (sadly so) by the discovery of the truth about what some "big breeders" do behind closed doors.  BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT, NO MATTER WHO IS DOING IT.
> ...


I appreciate the frankness of this post Judy.  Thanks for being honest with me.  There will always be disagreement on this topic, but just the fact that you see my point for what it is, means alot.

S~

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## wilomn

> I am going to duck out for a while.  maybe a day or so, and see how things evolve.  I am at work now, and I am tryingt to respond to people and get things done at the same time, and it's not working well  So, I am going to take a break until tonight or this weekend.  
> 
> I really do appreciate those of you who are going over this with me.  Like I said, it's an interesting topic becuase people get so wound up, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it.  Thank you Admin for allowing this thread to happen, and continue, and thanks for noone gettinsg warnings when they got a little worked up, and managed to keep it from exploding is a foolish post.  I am going to get some work done. 
> 
> S~


translation:
I don't have the PMs I told you about, you caught me in a lie. I don't want you "schooling" me any more. I already look like a fool and you'll just make it worse.
end translation.

I can live with that. As I mentioned before, you're not the first to tuck tail and run run run away and doubtless you won't be the last.

Way to go there bucko.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> I bring it here because this is the place that it matters themost.


Or maybe because 6 months ago when you "brought it" to your own forum, so many people were disgusted by your ideas that you wanted to try and find acceptance somewhere else?




> I am am pointing out that we could be hurting ourselves by what we are doing, and offered what I do (and what others have done or do, and don't like to talk about) as a solution.


I'd like to point out something else that could be hurting ourselves ... indifference. Lack of compassion for life. Valuation over compassion. I'd like to offer this as a solution ... the faster we get rid of breeders that treat these precious animals as mere widgets, the better off we, this hobby, and this business will be. My suggestion is about as equally practical as your and with mine, no animals have to die. 




> In the case of carpet pythons this isn't true.  The reason is, unlike ball Pythons ...


But you said this in your first post ...




> but this arguement can be made for Normal Balls as well


You're flailing again.




> they have to end up someplace


And I would suggest that if you are not willing to find them good, responsible homes ... then you shouldn't be breeding. 

You want to justify killing of snakes by claiming that you're saving them from a miserable life, but you are the reason they have a life in the first place ... so if you're seriously that concerned about it, don't breed. (I think this sentiment was expressed time and time again on the thread in your forum that you keep talking about ... did you expect a different result elsewhere?)




> Besides, it a useless death, which I don't feel really good about.


All death is useless. In the case of farm product or animal feeders, some death is necessary, but I'd hope most would never consider it "meaningful". One of the huge problems that I see here is that you acquired animals to feed your "cull" to in order to justify killing snakes. That's more than a little disturbing when you really think about it. 




> So is selling 100 of them at once on the cheap to get rid of them.


Why do you keep assuming that that is how most animals are sold? Maybe in your jaded world of living creatures being on par with hand held electronics, but there is a gigantic segment of the herp community that actually cares about each and every animal that they produce. I'm sorry that you've been around for such a "LONG TIME" that you've lost touch with that and only see the herp community through the ugly glasses of volume and profit. That may be the way for some, but certainly not all, and I believe not most.





> It does exactly the same thing, and I actually make more money, not less.


Right. Money. Yup.

Blessings,

-adam

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## olstyn

> Or maybe because 6 months ago when you "brought it" to your own forum, so many people were disgusted by your ideas that you wanted to try and find acceptance somewhere else?


Just to clarify this point (I'm NOT on ShawnC's side), I tend to lurk his forum, as I have an interest in getting a carpet in the future, but don't have one yet, and there is lots of good discussion there. The most recent time he brought this topic up over there was actually yesterday.

(Hopefully I'm not violating the rules by linking to it, and if I am, admins, please edit my post to delete the link - I just wanted to provide a timestamped reference.)

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## rabernet

My stance is that I take issue with your position that your "culled" animals are somehow better off than the pet homes that I find for my normal males. Not the fact that you feed them off, but that you are so rigid in your belief that they are better served being fed off. 

You have provided no evidence that they would be better off dead than adopted out.

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## JLC

> (Hopefully I'm not violating the rules by linking to it, and if I am, admins, please edit my post to delete the link - I just wanted to provide a timestamped reference.)


Hey...just to clarify something for folks unfamiliar with our site...and for Shawn...

Links to outside sites are FINE so long as they are given to further a specific discussion or show something that is not available here at BP.net.  We're pretty generous with allowing links to other sites and not real picky.  

So, Shawn...if you say, "I could prove that, but I'd have to link to something and I'm not sure I'm allowed".....so long as it's not an adult-oriented site...link away.  Also, the site you own is no mystery and linking to it would not be against our TOS, so long as it's not done for the purpose of recruiting or allowing a forum-war to erupt.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> Just to clarify this point (I'm NOT on ShawnC's side), I tend to lurk his forum, as I have an interest in getting a carpet in the future, but don't have one yet, and there is lots of good discussion there. The most recent time he brought this topic up over there was actually yesterday.
> 
> (Hopefully I'm not violating the rules by linking to it, and if I am, admins, please edit my post to delete the link - I just wanted to provide a timestamped reference.)


I'm aware and I'm sure that there are probably many threads over there that might talk about killing healthy animals in order to "save them from a fate worse than death" or "save the hobby by reducing out footprint" or whatever the line of the day is ... I think my point was more that this isn't a fresh discussion that the OP just decided to "bring to the place that matters" as he claims ... he's been weaving this web for a long time and after 6 months of trying to sell it on his own forum (and failing miserably) he's decided to try and validate his actions by attempting to martyr himself in front a whole new group of people. 

Blessings,

-adam

----------


## olstyn

> I'm aware and I'm sure that there are probably many threads over there that might talk about killing healthy animals in order to "save them from a fate worse than death" or "save the hobby by reducing out footprint" or whatever the line of the day is ... I think my point was more that this isn't a fresh discussion that the OP just decided to "bring to the place that matters" as he claims ... he's been weaving this web for a long time and after 6 months of trying to sell it on his own forum (and failing miserably) he's decided to try and validate his actions by attempting to martyr himself in front a whole new group of people. 
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> -adam


Fair enough; it just wasn't 100% clear from your post that you knew about the exact situation regarding that discussion over there, so I thought I'd be sure we were all on the same page, so to speak.

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## Eventide

Okay, you work with carpets, so let's talk carpets.  If you're so concerned about keeping lines pure, why do you create mutts?  If you have to feed the mutts off to other creatures (for whatever reason), why do you create them in the first place?  It sounds to me like you're as much a part of the "purity" problem as anyone else who creates hybrids.

Then again, I don't really quite understand the difference between "mutts" and hybrids.  If everyone is so concerned about the purity of the lines, why do they cross different species of carpets?

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## mainbutter

> If everyone is so concerned about the purity of the lines, why do they cross different species of carpets?


There is demand for morphs, and combo morphs.  If someone wants an albino jaguar carpet python, it has to be a cross of subspecies.

In addition, aussie carpet pythons can no longer be exported, so except for illegal exportation there is no source for new morphs.  This means that designer breeding is limited to a few base morphs, selective breeding, and crossing subspecies.

The problem is that if someone is trying to create an albino jaguar carpet python, they will create "unwanted" crosses that don't even carry the morph genes.  These animals are a threat to purists where crosses like albino jags are not.  No one will mistake an albino jaguar for anything except what it is, they know it has to be a cross, and it will not be represented as anything except that.

The issue with carpet pythons is that there is a pretty big demand and interest in combo morphs, especially since base morphs are so limited.  However, the interest in normal looking "mutts" is worse than the interest in normal male ball pythons, it is considered by a number of people into carpet pythons to be detrimental to their hobby.

In short, breeders interested in selective breeding for looks are at odds with those interested in creating combo morphs, because the selective breeders generally prefer animals that are as pure as possible, to best represent their subspecies.  People who are interested in both combo morphs and selective breeding can be at odds with their own desires in the animals they produce.

I hope this answered your question..

A note: I am not a purist, I thoroughly enjoy some of the crosses that have been made and think they are quite interesting animals.  However, I do very much dislike animals being sold as anything other than what they are, and it gets hard to keep track of all crossings across many generations as animals pass from one person to another.

----------

_cinderbird_ (09-18-2009),_Eventide_ (09-18-2009),_olstyn_ (09-18-2009)

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## p3titexburial

Woah. 19 pages.

Uhh, I think both sides have their own beliefs and it should be up to their own personal choices to do what they'd like with their animals. This discussion is going reach a dead end--both sides are passionate with opposing views and beating eachother's posts to death isn't going to do anything. 

Can't we just say we know where each side's coming from and leave it at that?

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## olstyn

> Can't we just say we know where each side's coming from and leave it at that?


Are you kidding?  This is the internet; arguments don't die until someone mentions Hitler, if even then!   :Smile:

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## Adam_Wysocki

> Can't we just say we know where each side's coming from and leave it at that?


I'm sorry, but I cannot. I am morally opposed to the idea of the wholesale killing of healthy animals for no other reason than they're not worthy of investing the time needed to place them into a good, responsible home.

There are literally hundreds of husbandry practices and ideologies in this hobby/business that I don't agree with, but I accept ... but advocating the killing of "lesser" animals is wrong and something I will never accept.

These are not iPods, they're not "widgets", they're not some disposable product that can just be thrown away on a whim ... they are a life and they deserve better. 

Everyone else might be willing to shut up and just pretend that it's OK to kill healthy animals because they're "cheap", or hard to find a good home for, or a "mutt", or whatever excuse you want to make for it, but I am not. In my opinon, the mere idea is a reflection of everything that's wrong with this hobby/business.

Blessings,

-adam

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ballpythonluvr (09-18-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-18-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-18-2009),dr del (09-18-2009),JLC (09-18-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009),NorthernRegius (09-18-2009),rabernet (09-18-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (09-18-2009),_waltah!_ (09-21-2009)

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## Nae

So you create these hybrids to cross supspecies, thereby coming up with your morphs. So when you have a non-morph or ugly hybrid you kill it. How long is it then until you or someone else needs that same hybrid to breed? Have you even tried marketing them to other breeders? Think of the years they'd save by not having to create that hybrid.

You compare normal and hybrid "undesireables" to the dogs and cats in shelters. Saying there's too many and they are culled for much the same reason. The big difference here is those dogs & cats were adoptable in the shelter, on display with people coming daily to look at them. While the arguement over animal shelters and euthanasia is a whole different one this situation and yours, where you don't even try to home the snakes, arent't similar in the least. Those dogs & cats had a chance, your snakes never did.

You're not offering any proof, any concrete facts, about how this is "bettering the hobby." Where's the proof? Speculation is just that and I could sit here all day arguing the moon is made out of cheese and it must be true because you can't prove it's not cheese up there. You're speculating that the way a person would treat one thing versus another is the same for an animal. I disagree. People who keep pets, as would be the situation with a normal male, do form attachments to them. I'm sure there are situations of neglect and abuse with "low value" animals but can you prove to me there isn't any, or there is significantly less for more valuable ones? To the point that would justify never even giving the animal, or its possible happy owner, a chance?

The fact you feed snakes you breed is not what is being argued here. While a lot of readers and respondents wouldn't do so or perhaps disagree with it the arguement is over how you are handling your "undesireables." 

Your contradictions and speculations aren't gaining you any credibility. I sincerely hope that your full name or business name comes out here so that I can avoid your business like a plague.

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## h00blah

adam, jlc, rabernet, and wilomn are on FIRE  :Good Job: 

i admire shawnc for debating for what he believes in and wont give up, but i'd hafta agree with wilomn and adam, that u r just giving the WRONG thing a fancy name. as adam said "call it what you want", its still wrong  :Embarassed: 

good topic. 
this is the debate about the fine line between breeding for the love of the animals, and farming for the profit. very very VERY fine line.

saving all the points being made lol.  :Very Happy:

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## Eventide

Thanks for the explanation, Mainbutter!

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## WingedWolfPsion

It's a mistake to think that lowering the supply of CBB animals will somehow reduce the number of imports.  People in the US pay attention to the bottom line.  If we have a problem educating people NOW, why on earth would you think they will listen when you tell them they should pay more for a CBB baby instead of a CH baby from a chain pet store?

The only way you're going to reduce importation is by reducing the demand for imports.  The demand will ONLY go down when CBB animals are so plentiful that they are CHEAPER than imports.  When it is no longer economically wise for people to import ball pythons instead of buying them from US breeders, they will stop importing them.  It's not exactly free to send a crateload of snakes from Africa to the US.  The wholesalers do not care where they came from, as long as they can supply all the retailers who purchase in bulk from them.  So, ball pythons are worth 8 bucks apiece?  You can get a kitten for free.  That's not the point.

If you want to improve things for ball pythons in captivity, you must educate people.  You have to approach it on two fronts.  If you make the animals inaccessible to them, they won't care, and they won't pay attention.  The only way they will care is if they can have one themselves.  Reducing the supply and raising the prices accomplishes NOTHING.  The animals are not considered 'disposable' because they are cheap.  They're NOT actually cheap--I already made that point.  Have you checked the price in your local chain store for an ordinary ball python?  I'd be happy to get that price for a male pastel.  :Razz: 

Peoples' attitude towards reptiles in general has to be changed--they need to see them as living, feeling beings that deserve care as much as a cat or a dog does.  Right now, people care very little more for them than they do for goldfish (fish are treated most cruelly, especially when you consider they are vertebrates with full capability for feeling pain, and the same emotional range as reptiles).  An expensive koi may be looked after well, but it is still 'just a fish'.  
THAT is the attitude that has to be worked against.  By assuming that people will get veterinary care for an animal regularly, and making that assumption part of your speech, part of all your care sheets, part of your advice--by making sure they have proper care information available plentifully.  By publicly condemning retailers that have inadequate conditions for their animals.  By taking YOUR animals down to the public library and giving a talk on reptile care.  There are SO many ways you can help.  Of course, they all require more work than tossing a snake into a monitor cage and patting yourself on the back for saving it from being purchased by a newbie.

Now, on the other hand, the folks saying there is something inherently wrong about ending the lives of animals in a breeding program because you think they are imperfect--that's completely hypocritical coming from anyone who has a rat or mouse feeder colony, and culls any animal that shows signs of a problem, temperament issue, or just doesn't make the cut as a future breeder.  Which most of us who raise feeder colonies do routinely.  I completely deny there is any difference between this and raising an animal for any other purpose.  It certainly does not matter to the animals why you are raising them.  I don't think you get brownie points from the universe for valuing one animal higher than another, or treating it differently because you do.  I like rats.  I think they're cool animals.  I still raise them to feed my snakes, and I cull any of them that bite me immediately.  I cull the ones I don't like the colors of, that act too nervous, or that seem less healthy or less vigorous.  They all wind up as snake food.

I'm not disagreeing with culling normal ball pythons because I think they're more important than rats in the grand scheme of things.  I disagree with it because A) public perception would value them higher (whether it's right or wrong--of course, rat fanciers would disagree!), B) it's a waste of income, and inefficiency just bugs me C) it's bad for the hobby and detracts from efforts to end importation by increasing the supply of normal cbb balls available to pet stores (which used to be a very deliberate goal set forth by the reptile nation, and HAS worked with some species already), and D) the animals you're feeding them off to don't require snakes as food, and snakes are difficult to produce in comparison with readily available feeders that those animals can eat.

If you were feeding them to stubborn king cobras, I honestly wouldn't have any problem with it.  There are a number of ophiphagus species out there, and some individuals can be quite stubborn about refusing to accept rodent prey.  Ball pythons are fairly large at hatching, and thus would make more substantial prey items for such species--being cbb, they would be parasite-free, and thus safer than feeding WC garters or other wild caught species.  But that isn't the case here.
Heck.  You could contact people who keep ophiphagus species, and offer them your unwanted snakes at a discount, and I bet they would be glad for the offer.  That would still be a better choice than the one you're making.

This is a justification of wasting perfectly good ball pythons as food for animals that don't actually need to eat them, due to the mistaken idea that their lives have no other value.

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_cinderbird_ (09-29-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

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## accidental777

Hmm...I am not real sure where to start on this one. I think that the biggest part of this thread that was missing, was the part where the OP waited for so long to mention that hybridization was a factor of the culling. 
I have been an aquarium hobbyist for about 8 years now and I am still not sure where I stand on hybridization. I am sure many of you are wondering what that has to do with hybridization at all. Well.....just type in the words "flowerhorn" on any purist cichlid forum or mention the word hybrid and prepare to be flamed. 
It has gotten so bad in the hobby that there are very few sources of some species of fish that are pure. Amphilophus trimaculatus, Amphilophus citrinellus, Amphilophus labiatus, and Amphilophus festae are just a few species that have been so muddied, that in order  to get a pure strain you have to find someone who has wild caughts or f1 available. The day when you can walk into ANY pet store and find them has gone. Sure, petsmart and other places sell what they "call" a midas or a red devil, but it is simply a mislabled animal.
People have been creating these gorgeous, high selling hybrid fish, but at what cost to the hobby? I personally do not have an issue with hybridization as long as the animal is sold as it is, not as something it "looks like". 
I can see where the OP is coming from on this point of view. It would be very detrimental   to his hobby (carpet pythons specifically not bps) if he did not cull some of his animals. IME with fish, I have sold a hybrid fish (I didn't breed) to the pet store and told them exactly what it was only to have it mislabeled and sold as something else. It can be very disappointing to  buy an animal while thinking it is one thing then to have it identified as another. 
However, the question has to be asked....Why even bother hybridizing these animals if it could pose such a huge threat on the purity of these animals? What happens when pure strains of them are gone due to hybridizing? Why hybridize them at all if the end result is having to cull the ones that aren't the "what you wanted"?

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## wilomn

> However, the question has to be asked....Why even bother hybridizing these animals if it could pose such a huge threat on the purity of these animals? What happens when pure strains of them are gone due to hybridizing? Why hybridize them at all if the end result is having to cull the ones that aren't the "what you wanted"?


There are 3 answers to this question.

Number one: Money

Number two: More Money

Number three: Greed

That's it. There is NO other reason for these snakes to exist than to be sold. I don't know of a single person who cross breeds snakes and keeps all the offsrping. I don't know anyone who does this that gives away all their babies. I know more than a few, including the op here, who sell them which leads us directly to answers One, Two and finally, Three.

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## olstyn

> There are 3 answers to this question.
> 
> Number one: Money
> 
> Number two: More Money
> 
> Number three: Greed
> 
> That's it. There is NO other reason for these snakes to exist than to be sold. I don't know of a single person who cross breeds snakes and keeps all the offsrping. I don't know anyone who does this that gives away all their babies. I know more than a few, including the op here, who sell them which leads us directly to answers One, Two and finally, Three.


Of course they couldn't be doing it because they want to see the results...?

Obviously money is a big factor, but to characterize it as the only factor is myopic at best.  There are far better (and quicker) ways to get rich than breeding snakes, as you well know.  There must be at least some interest in snakes from the breeders or they wouldn't bother.

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## wilomn

> Of course they couldn't be doing it because they want to see the results...?
> 
> Obviously money is a big factor, but to characterize it as the only factor is myopic at best.  There are far better (and quicker) ways to get rich than breeding snakes, as you well know.  There must be at least some interest in snakes from the breeders or they wouldn't bother.


Nope. I said what I meant. In this instance, since there is no one I know of giving away his offspring, there may be but I don't know of anyone, every single breeder is selling excess offspring.

This isn't about getting rich, it's about making something, sometimes anything, back off and investment and hobby.

If any money at all changes hands, the snakes are a commodity, bought and sold for profit and loss.

IF you were in it to see what happens and that were the only reason, selling your babies, or culling the ugly ones, would not be a concern at all.

I can see where you could think I was referring to all carpet breeders, and in a round about way I am but in that I am referring to all of us who breed and make money off snakes but this guy in particular whose sole motivation is profit.

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## olstyn

I didn't claim that you didn't mean what you said, nor did I claim that money was not a motivating factor, nor do I think people should give away their offspring for free (in the general case, at least), but I stand by what I said before.  The idea that an enterprise of this sort is entered into solely for monetary reasons is just silly.

Also, the idea that the OP's sole motivation is profit is provably false.  If that were true, he'd sell every snake he produces; I don't know what a baby "mutt" carpet goes for wholesale, but it's gotta be more than a single feeder rat/fish/whatever he normally feeds his arrowanna and/or his monitor lizard.  Therefore, he *loses* some amount of money every time he culls a healthy snake.  If his sole motivation was profit, that would be unacceptable for him.

Note, however, that I do not support his actions - I'm just trying to get you to see that your apparently black and white view of the world may need a little bit of adjustment.

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## AaronP

> I'm just trying to get you to see that your apparently black and white view of the world may need a little bit of adjustment.


When you distill everything down to "Why" it really is that simple.  The sole purpose of a business is to make money, no matter how you look at it that is the end goal of that company.  The means in which they choose to make that money is a whole other ball game.

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## wilomn

> I didn't claim that you didn't mean what you said, nor did I claim that money was not a motivating factor, nor do I think people should give away their offspring for free (in the general case, at least), but I stand by what I said before.  The idea that an enterprise of this sort is entered into solely for monetary reasons is just silly.
> 
> Also, the idea that the OP's sole motivation is profit is provably false.  If that were true, he'd sell every snake he produces; I don't know what a baby "mutt" carpet goes for wholesale, but it's gotta be more than a single feeder rat/fish/whatever he normally feeds his arrowanna and/or his monitor lizard.  Therefore, he *loses* some amount of money every time he culls a healthy snake.  If his sole motivation was profit, that would be unacceptable for him.
> 
> Note, however, that I do not support his actions - I'm just trying to get you to see that your apparently black and white view of the world may need a little bit of adjustment.


I still disagree.

He's feeding them off because that is easier, cheaper, less hassle, all of which are factors in any business, than finding them good homes. 

I think he feels guilty about that and so threads like this one are started.

He's accepted responsibility for his own creations, well and good, but his reasoning is false.

In this instance in particular and to a large, perhaps exclusive degree, I think he's motivated by profit, or if not profit per se, what he can get for his snakes.

It's easier for him to feed an 8 dollar baby to his fish than it is to sell it, pack it, and ship it. That's business and I completely understand that.

Saying how brave and humble he is by doing that and having the nerve to talk about when mysterious others do the same yet remain silent is balderdash.

I see shades of grey. Not here, but I do see them.

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## accidental777

It might be "fun" to hybridize things to find out what you end up with, but it is not "fun" anymore when pure species start disappearing because of it. Like I said, look at the cichlid hobby, you will see what I mean. 
Like Wes posted, if it was a "project" to see what hybrid pairings produce and if he kept all of his offspring from such as, it would be different. 
For one, he is producing them to make a profit. Secondly, they are being sold to people who may breed them later on and sell them as a pure species. Third, he is using hybridization as an excuse to cull healthy animals.

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## olstyn

> I still disagree.
> 
> He's feeding them off because that is easier, cheaper, less hassle, all of which are factors in any business, than finding them good homes. 
> 
> I think he feels guilty about that and so threads like this one are started.
> 
> He's accepted responsibility for his own creations, well and good, but his reasoning is false.
> 
> In this instance in particular and to a large, perhaps exclusive degree, I think he's motivated by profit, or if not profit per se, what he can get for his snakes.
> ...


Well, I can actually agree with you on most of that.  I only take exception to the "cheaper," and *possibly* the "guilty," but that second one is very difficult to objectively evaluate, so I'll just let it go.  You're definitely right that what he's doing is easier than what rabernet does with her excess low-value babies.  (IMO her method is awesome, BTW; all baby snakes should be so lucky as to be born at her house.)

I also agree that it's not brave or humble or impressive to talk about what he's doing.

All that said, I still don't think he'd breed snakes at all if he didn't personally enjoy them at least somewhat.  I'm just not willing to believe that someone would willingly deal with the daily maintenance of a collection of snakes solely for money.  He must like them at least a little bit.

I'm not saying it's not the darkest shade of gray that you can differentiate from black, but it just can't be pure black and white.  Just about nothing in this world is.

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## wilomn

> I'm not saying it's not the darkest shade of gray that you can differentiate from black, but it just can't be pure black and white.  Just about nothing in this world is.


Again I must, respectfully, disagree.

Right is right, wrong is wrong. Truth is truth and what isn't, isn't.

That's plain and simple and black and white.

There is nothing wrong with what he's doing.

The excuses he offers have been proven fallacious more than once. That either makes him terribly stupid, which you seem to think he is not, or a liar, which I am certain he is.

Whether or not he is a terribly stupid liar or just terribly stupid is no doubt the subject of many conversations in the last 2 days.

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## cinderbird

I've been waiting for a point to be brought up here, and it hasn't yet so I'll bring it up.

Ball pythons do not have the same hybridization problem that carpets have. Your issue with this hybrid problem (as it deals with BPs) is entirely null because _it does not happen_.   There are the occasional hybrids (super ball, carpall, etc) but those animals are so few in number and very rare in the hobby that they arent the same problem. Also, i own a hybrid carpet and I'd never think of getting rid of her, or culling her just because she isnt a pure blood animal.. Perhaps this is a scenario where microchipping could come in handy. (there is a thread on this in the BP advanced husbandry section if you'd like to view it). But it would cost you money. 

Shawn, i seriously can not comprehend why you came here (to the people that matter..?) to discuss this particular issue. 

Culling perfectly healthy animals because they aren't up to your standards is bogus. If all your animals were used for feeders, sure, i get that. If you held some back to create more feeders (much like people who breed feeder rats hold back colors they like or rats with certain personalities or those they bond to) to create more feeder rats, sure. But you pick and choose favorites based on morph, which only translates to money. Like you've been told a hundred times through this thread, you are NOT going to find someone who agrees with you on this.  Most of the people on this forum are here because they genuinely care about their animals and their lives, not making a quick buck.  People that are found out to be lying or cheating scum bags have no place here and I believe the admins do a very good job of seeing to that. This forum is here to spread information to anyone who bothers to look for it or is directed here. 

You are not a saint for this. And to me, you do VERY MUCH come off as "holier then thou" because you "cull 10% of your animals" to "save the hobby." You still haven't addressed the discrepancies with your "footprint." .. Culling 15-20 animals a year helps.....how? 

I'm not sure what kind of validation you're looking for for this, but I dont think youre going to find it here.

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## aSnakeLovinBabe

*



			
				You want to justify killing of snakes by claiming that you're saving them from a miserable life, but you are the reason they have a life in the first place ... So if you're seriously that concerned about it, don't breed.
			
		

*

Best thing I have read all day. That is all that needs to be said. 

I have never seen "reasoning" that was as bad as what is in this thread. You bring their lives into existence KNOWINGLY only to end it before they even have a CHANCE, while their brothers and sisters are allowed to continue because they may not be as "low value". Because the 10% of snakes you "cull" are... well, like you said..... _"unfortunate side effects"_. And absolutely, positively doomed no matter who you sell them to. Even though it is your fault in the first place that they ever had to be born to experience being "doomed" or ripped to shreds by a giant fish in the first place.

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_cinderbird_ (09-19-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

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## wilomn

> Best thing I have read all day. That is all that needs to be said. 
> 
> I have never seen "reasoning" that was as bad as what is in this thread. You bring their lives into existence KNOWINGLY only to end it before they even have a CHANCE, while their brothers and sisters are allowed to continue because they may not be as "low value". Because the 10% of snakes you "cull" are... well, like you said..... _"unfortunate side effects"_. And absolutely, positively doomed no matter who you sell them to. Even though it is your fault in the first place that they ever had to be born to experience being "doomed" or ripped to shreds by a giant fish in the first place.


In all honesty the Arawana is probably the easier of the two deaths he offers the ugly ones. They just swallow things whole.

Monitors tend to beat and thrash their food before eating it, often giving a few hefty chomps for good measure.

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## aSnakeLovinBabe

> In all honesty the Arawana is probably the easier of the two deaths he offers the ugly ones. They just swallow things whole.
> 
> Monitors tend to beat and thrash their food before eating it, often giving a few hefty chomps for good measure.


I would seriously rather be chomped than swallowed whole!! At least if I am chomped... it's done and over! Swallowed whole and that means I suffocate in stomach acid.  :Surprised:  I am looking to get an Arowana sometime soon.... won't be feeding it any sub-par baby garters though.

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_minguss_ (09-19-2009)

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## Shawn

> If I had to choose to lose my iPhone or one of my normal males I would be losing that iPhone. Just sayin...


this I know to be true.

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_waltah!_ (09-21-2009)

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## WingedWolfPsion

Hm, I do have to say, the reason I'm keeping neat patterns or coat types (like Rex) in my mouse and rat colonies isn't really for my personal pleasure, but in case I need to sell some of them off to reduce the colonies over the winter season.  If so, gold mice (satins) and pretty himalayan rex rats are going to be much easier to sell to pet stores as pets than brown or white ones would be.  Their value is higher, which is why I'm breeding for those colors, and why the other colors get fed off first.  I don't see a problem with this.  The fact I can open a bin and go 'oh, cool' is a pretty minor part of it.

Don't get me wrong, I love my normal male ball pythons, and would never feed them off to a lizard or fish.  If I were going to breed hybrid carpets (which I have no intention of doing, I just don't care for hybrids) I would chip the babies and roll it into their price tag.  I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either.  But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument.  There is this weird division people make in their minds between 'livestock' and 'pets'.  It's completely artificial.  It makes no difference to the animals why you value some more than others, or IF you do.  It makes no difference to the animals whether you consider them pets, food, or feeders, either.  They don't care about your motivations.  I don't think motivations are relevant here in the first place.  

It's hypocritical to have one set of moral standards for feeders, and a completely and totally different set for pets.  Animals are animals, and deserve respect no matter what your intended use for them is.  That doesn't mean you should stop using feeders.  It means you should not make a big division in your mind between them and your snakes.  Keep them in clean conditions with clean water and decent food, and do your best to be humane.  Don't be horrified if someone uses snakes as feeders, if it's NECESSARY.  If you're going to tell him he is wrong to do feed off his culls, you have to come up with a better argument than 'they're pets, so it's wrong'.  And a MUCH better argument than 'it's wrong to feed off only the ones you don't like or aren't worth as much because they're all equally alive'. 

You feed your snakes rats because rats aren't worth as much as your snakes.  If they were, you would probably be looking for an alternative food source pretty quick.  That's a value judgment based on $ as well.  Unless your moral reasoning is even more frivolous, such as "I like snakes better than rats".  If you're going to tell this guy he's wrong, you've got to make a logical argument, not an emotional one that doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

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p3titexburial (09-19-2009),_Raptor_ (09-19-2009),_rjk890_ (09-19-2009)

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## Shawn

I have not read this whole thread because IMO , I cant believe it lasted as long as it did. (this wont be politically correct and is not to offend but argueing like this and letting someone that has his views so different from the majority, with no chance of changing his views is retarded).  
   I can say from my own experiences that most people I know that have BP's as pets have the "UGLY normal one's" not the more expensive morphs.

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## wilomn

> Hm, I do have to say, the reason I'm keeping neat patterns or coat types (like Rex) in my mouse and rat colonies isn't really for my personal pleasure, but in case I need to sell some of them off to reduce the colonies over the winter season.  If so, gold mice (satins) and pretty himalayan rex rats are going to be much easier to sell to pet stores as pets than brown or white ones would be.  Their value is higher, which is why I'm breeding for those colors, and why the other colors get fed off first.  I don't see a problem with this.  The fact I can open a bin and go 'oh, cool' is a pretty minor part of it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love my normal male ball pythons, and would never feed them off to a lizard or fish.  If I were going to breed hybrid carpets (which I have no intention of doing, I just don't care for hybrids) I would chip the babies and roll it into their price tag.  I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either.  But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument.  There is this weird division people make in their minds between 'livestock' and 'pets'.  It's completely artificial.  It makes no difference to the animals why you value some more than others, or IF you do.  It makes no difference to the animals whether you consider them pets, food, or feeders, either.  They don't care about your motivations.  I don't think motivations are relevant here in the first place.  
> 
> It's hypocritical to have one set of moral standards for feeders, and a completely and totally different set for pets.  Animals are animals, and deserve respect no matter what your intended use for them is.  That doesn't mean you should stop using feeders.  It means you should not make a big division in your mind between them and your snakes.  Keep them in clean conditions with clean water and decent food, and do your best to be humane.  Don't be horrified if someone uses snakes as feeders, if it's NECESSARY.  If you're going to tell him he is wrong to do feed off his culls, you have to come up with a better argument than 'they're pets, so it's wrong'.  And a MUCH better argument than 'it's wrong to feed off only the ones you don't like or aren't worth as much because they're all equally alive'. 
> 
> You feed your snakes rats because rats aren't worth as much as your snakes.  If they were, you would probably be looking for an alternative food source pretty quick.  That's a value judgment based on $ as well.  Unless your moral reasoning is even more frivolous, such as "I like snakes better than rats".  If you're going to tell this guy he's wrong, you've got to make a logical argument, not an emotional one that doesn't bear up to scrutiny.


Huh? I'm pretty sure some of us made this distinction quite clear and used little to no emotion at all in providing that clarity.

He can feed all he wants to whomever he wants.

Telling us that he is ethically superior, brave and humble because he not only dares to do so but speaks publicly about it is crap. His reason is simple economics. It's cheaper and easier to feed off the ugly ones.

That too is fine. But don't hand me a shovel full of crap and tell me it's freshcut roses.

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_cinderbird_ (09-20-2009),JLC (09-19-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-20-2009),_minguss_ (09-19-2009),rabernet (09-19-2009),_rjk890_ (09-19-2009)

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## p3titexburial

> Hm, I do have to say, the reason I'm keeping neat patterns or coat types (like Rex) in my mouse and rat colonies isn't really for my personal pleasure, but in case I need to sell some of them off to reduce the colonies over the winter season.  If so, gold mice (satins) and pretty himalayan rex rats are going to be much easier to sell to pet stores as pets than brown or white ones would be.  Their value is higher, which is why I'm breeding for those colors, and why the other colors get fed off first.  I don't see a problem with this.  The fact I can open a bin and go 'oh, cool' is a pretty minor part of it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love my normal male ball pythons, and would never feed them off to a lizard or fish.  If I were going to breed hybrid carpets (which I have no intention of doing, I just don't care for hybrids) I would chip the babies and roll it into their price tag.  I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either.  But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument.  There is this weird division people make in their minds between 'livestock' and 'pets'.  It's completely artificial.  It makes no difference to the animals why you value some more than others, or IF you do.  It makes no difference to the animals whether you consider them pets, food, or feeders, either.  They don't care about your motivations.  I don't think motivations are relevant here in the first place.  
> 
> It's hypocritical to have one set of moral standards for feeders, and a completely and totally different set for pets.  Animals are animals, and deserve respect no matter what your intended use for them is.  That doesn't mean you should stop using feeders.  It means you should not make a big division in your mind between them and your snakes.  Keep them in clean conditions with clean water and decent food, and do your best to be humane.  Don't be horrified if someone uses snakes as feeders, if it's NECESSARY.  If you're going to tell him he is wrong to do feed off his culls, you have to come up with a better argument than 'they're pets, so it's wrong'.  And a MUCH better argument than 'it's wrong to feed off only the ones you don't like or aren't worth as much because they're all equally alive'. 
> 
> You feed your snakes rats because rats aren't worth as much as your snakes.  If they were, you would probably be looking for an alternative food source pretty quick.  That's a value judgment based on $ as well.  Unless your moral reasoning is even more frivolous, such as "I like snakes better than rats".  If you're going to tell this guy he's wrong, you've got to make a logical argument, not an emotional one that doesn't bear up to scrutiny.


That's the impression I got too, when I read these posts. Yes, the OP does this practice himself but I didn't get the impression that he said everyone else /should do it/--however, I did get the impression that many people were telling him he shouldn't and the reason was arbitrary in terms of talking about how it's for monetary gain vs how much he loved the animals vs the purpose of culling them--but no one really had a problem when the same principle applied to feeder animals.

Perhaps we were debating about completely different things to begin with.

No one here (unless somehow one of us is like totally awesomely omnipotent) can say there's one absolute truth--someone's truth could be someone else's lie, since the moment is gone and past, it comes down to "he says so because this happened" and "she says so because this happened." 

There is also no right or wrong--there is only /choice/. We say something is "right" based on our own principles and values, but that isn't always the same as someone else's--who is anyone to say their principles are more right than another's? 

Po-opinions, pro-decisions, without having someone tell you you're wrong or horrid or disgusting because they don't agree with your practices, isn't that what it means to have freedom?

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## wilomn

> That's the impression I got too, when I read these posts. Yes, the OP does this practice himself but I didn't get the impression that he said everyone else /should do it/--however, I did get the impression that many people were telling him he shouldn't and the reason was arbitrary in terms of talking about how it's for monetary gain vs how much he loved the animals vs the purpose of culling them--but no one really had a problem when the same principle applied to feeder animals.
> 
> Perhaps we were debating about completely different things to begin with.
> 
> No one here (unless somehow one of us is like totally awesomely omnipotent) can say there's one absolute truth--someone's truth could be someone else's lie, since the moment is gone and past, it comes down to "he says so because this happened" and "she says so because this happened." 
> 
> There is also no right or wrong--there is only /choice/. We say something is "right" based on our own principles and values, but that isn't always the same as someone else's--who is anyone to say their principles are more right than another's? 
> 
> Po-opinions, pro-decisions, without having someone tell you you're wrong or horrid or disgusting because they don't agree with your practices, isn't that what it means to have freedom?


So you would deny others the right to these strictures and boundaries?

Interesting.

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## p3titexburial

That's not what I said or meant. Everyone has the right to their own "truths" and "rights" and "wrongs" and can view the world in terms of black and white should they /choose/ to.

But I abhor it when people condemn others for their choices. Yes, they may be base and low and disgusting to one person, but the person who does so have their own circumstances, their own minds and the consequences of their actions are theirs.

We talked about educating people and that's all we can really do--if one day we tell a child 2+2 is 4, show him why, and he still insists it's 3, what do we do? Yell at the kid into submission? If shown all the alternatives and given all the information, people still walk their own roads, do we have the right to take away their rights if it doesn't hurt anyone else?

I'm just asking people to reflect, question, empathize. Why do we always have to be in extremes?

Under no circumstances have I been rude or disrespectful, and I make a lot of effort to not treat anyone sarcastically even if I don't agree with them. I'd like the same respect in return.

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## wilomn

> Under no circumstances have I been rude or disrespectful, and I make a lot of effort to not treat anyone sarcastically even if I don't agree with them. I'd like the same respect in return.


Good luck with that.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (09-20-2009)

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## WingedWolfPsion

Well, no...we explain why 2 + 2 is 4 again, and we make him work with little markers and number lines and other things until he actually understands that 2+2 IS 4.  Because mathematics isn't an opinion, it never changes.  And because he's a kid, and he needs to learn.  If he can't learn basic math, he sure isn't going to get very far in life.

A lack of critical thinking is a huge part of the problem...well, in the entire world, actually.
Sure, people have the right to be illogical, but they are stupid if they exercise it.  I have the right to recognize that.  :Wink:

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## h00blah

> Good luck with that.


ya lol, online forum trolls are ruthless. i wouldnt get my hopes up either  :Good Job: 




> Well, no...we explain why 2 + 2 is 4 again, and we make him work with little markers and number lines and other things until he actually understands that 2+2 IS 4.  Because mathematics isn't an opinion, it never changes.  And because he's a kid, and he needs to learn.  If he can't learn basic math, he sure isn't going to get very far in life.



perhaps math was a bad example, bc math IS about right and wrong  :Razz:  theres no opinion involved.

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## rabernet

> Yes, the OP does this practice himself but I didn't get the impression that he said everyone else /should do it/


No, he just said that my normal males that I very carefully chose homes for will be dead in two years, and he's "saved" his "castoffs" from that fate. 

My "dog in this fight" if you will, is that I don't happen to agree with him, that his fed off animals are better off because they were culled, as opposed to the choice that I make to place them in responsible pet homes.

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## p3titexburial

Yeah, that and I'm not particularly sure whether he's joking so it's better not to take offense to something that could easily be misinterpreted. There's no tone in posts ^^;;. 

It's not really about whether opinion in math is right or wrong but what to do in the case that someone is convinced it's that answer--you can (maybe, depending on how stubborn someone is) force them to tell you your answer is right, but whether they change their belief or not will be based on their experiences later and their choice to do so alone. Math was just the first thing that came to mind but not the best example.

The way the OP writes and composes his posts can really be confrontational and assuming and that's something that may or may not be intentional--and even though I don't agree with them personally, I can see where he's coming from and understand his right to make that decision--just like everyone else has to right to their own. But to go into a "I'm right" "no I'm right" argument gets nobody anywhere. I just thought it might be important to remember that. 

I noticed there's not a lot of responses to breeders of other species of animals in terms of whether what they're doing is right or wrong when the practices are essentially the same. We do hold double standards sometimes, but life is life--if we're counting value by species, we've got /our/ math wrong.

I'm not saying we stand by and do nothing when something violates our principles, but after you've said everything you could and the other person still chooses to go their way, it may be seen as hypocritical if you try to force them to see things your way--to imply their intelligence, their ethics, morals, and general attitude as a human being subpar to your own based on one idea they have.

It's different, is all.

I really enjoy the fact that things can remain civil even if the topic gets heated, and it becomes a way to organize thoughts and broaden our horizons just a little bit. =)

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## wuffielover

Ok, I'll dip my toes in...

I can see using snakes as feeders. I have a coworker who keeps some species of snakes which only eat lizards, and I know people who own snakes that will only eat other snakes. I have no problem with this, or with killing any animal which will be used for food. I, personally, would probably eat snake meat if I were hungry.

I do have a problem with the OP's argument that, since there is a *chance* that an 'ugly' or low-value snake (let's stick with BPs only and use normal males as the 'uglies' here) may suffer neglect and abuse, that the best solution is to kill these potentially unwanted snakes without going to any effort to try and find them homes. Although I don't have a problem with him feeding these snakes to other animals, I must disagree that this is the 'best' fate for them. In eighth grade, I bought my first snake. It was- guess what!- a normal male ball python. 10 years later I still have that snake, and I plan on keeping him for the rest of his natural life span. The OP would have (according to his logic) killed this snake because there was a chance, increased by the fact that I was a first-time snake owner, and a child, that I would neglect or abuse the snake once the 'new pet' factor wore off, or pass it off to someone else who would. He would have made this judgment based on no personal knowledge about me, with only his general lack of faith in humanity as a guideline. *This* is what I have a problem with. Sure, there are probably people who buy a cheap snake and neglect/abuse/abandon it when they lose interest. There are also people who get a cheap snake and because of that purchase, become interested in snakes for the rest of their lives, and keep that first snake very well for the rest of *its* life. The same could be said of cheap cats, or cheap dogs, or any 'cheap' animal. Does that mean we should euthanize every low-value animal because it *might* be abused, based on our own prejudices about other people, without ever giving the animal, or the person, a chance? ....I'll let ya'll answer that one.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> I wouldn't feed them to fish or lizards either.  But to say that it's wrong to do so BECAUSE they're less desirable only due to their lower price tag doesn't seem like a valid moral argument.


We've heard that they're being killed and used as feeders, but then we heard that the OP actually bought a lizard for the sole purpose of eating the "lesser valued" animals he produced.

We've heard that the OP feels he has to kill these animals to save them from a life of abuse, neglect, and misery.

We've heard that the OP feels that releasing these animals into the pet trade will "muddy" up a gene pool so in order to prevent that, they must be killed.

We've heard that the OP feels that killing "cheap" animals is imperative in order to reduce the hobby/businesses "footprint" and keep law makers off of our backs.

And finally, what we didn't hear is this gem (from the OP's own message board posted back in April of 09) 

_"This year, I expect to produce up to a couple of dozen normal appearing, IJ/Jag siblings, Het for Granite hybrids. Although they will be completely healthy, I think I am going to feed them all to my arrowanna at my office. No, I am not kidding. Why? I honestly do think that they will eventually be misrepresented as pure carpets, which they are not, and because they carry a gene that is desirable, this is more likely to occur than not. So, to prevent this ultimate eventuality, I am going to cull each and every one of them. It seems to me that the siblings that are hybrids will cause more problems than they are worth down the road, and I honestly would rather cull them than sell them. I understand that ultimately, this is a multiple thousand dollar decision, but at the end of the day, I think it's important to lead by example when I think something is right. And I think selling Mutt's that are very likely to do damage is something I no longer want to do." -ShawnC_

_I more consider [my snakes] as the basis for a hobby, and something to work with. Something to refine, and perfect. I want to perfect a high percentage Jungle granite. I want to perfect a high percentage IJ/Jag granite, but in order to get there, I'll need to produce literally hundreds of spin off normal sibling animals that will do alot of harm, and flood the market with essentially, what I would consider very poor quality snakes that will further damage carpet pythons in general. I dont' want to do that, and I am willing to sacrifice lots of baby snakes to keep that from happening. -ShawnC_

I personally enjoy these gems:
_
"more problems than they are worth" -ShawnC

"this is a multiple thousand dollar decision" - ShawnC

"important to lead by example" - ShawnC
_

It has nothing to do with using these animals as feeders ... that's just some sugar coated cover story to make people feel better about his decision to breed animals that will produce so-called genetically toxic "by-product" and kill them ... this is about protecting the OPs investment animals.

I understand that an argument can be made that killing rodents is also in a sense protecting an investment, but my question is if the next step after killing rodents is killing normal siblings or "genetic mutts", what's the step after that? Will we one day be advocating the killing of mousers? Or female ball pythons that don't make it to 1500 grams in 18 months? Or males that don't breed at six months of age? For once we decide that killing certain animals is "good for the hobby", you can't stuff that back into the box.

Blessings,

-adam

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_abuja_ (09-20-2009),_accidental777_ (09-20-2009),_anatess_ (09-20-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-20-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-20-2009),dr del (09-20-2009),_Eventide_ (09-21-2009),h00blah (09-20-2009),_jglass38_ (09-20-2009),JLC (09-20-2009),_monk90222_ (09-20-2009),_olstyn_ (09-20-2009),rabernet (09-20-2009),_Spaniard_ (09-20-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (09-20-2009),Tek48 (09-21-2009)

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## accidental777

This is what upsets me most. This whole time he has been passing this off as a noble cause, and or being responsible. What it all actually amounts to the OP profiting off of hybridization and line breeding. 
Once again, my question is asked. If it is so harmful for this hobby to produce these hybrids why even do it??? Especially when it leads to so many healthy animals being culled.

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## wilomn

> This is what upsets me most. This whole time he has been passing this off as a noble cause, and or being responsible. What it all actually amounts to the OP profiting off of hybridization and line breeding. 
> Once again, my question is asked. If it is so harmful for this hobby to produce these hybrids why even do it??? Especially when it leads to so many healthy animals being culled.


Actually, he was TRYING to pass it off as noble, but lacking honor, honesty and integrity, he failed. Miserably.

You notice he hasn't been back since he got his fanny whacked a couple of days ago.

The guy's a turd, through and through and he didn't fool ANYONE.

Except maybe himself, and really, how hard is it to fool a stupid person?

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ballpythonluvr (09-20-2009),h00blah (09-20-2009)

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## h00blah

> Actually, he was TRYING to pass it off as noble, but lacking honor, honesty and integrity, he failed. Miserably.
> 
> You notice he hasn't been back since he got his fanny whacked a couple of days ago.
> 
> The guy's a turd, through and through and he didn't fool ANYONE.
> 
> Except maybe himself, and really, how hard is it to fool a stupid person?


wow lol, this post is a sick BURN

i had to add it to my notepad of pwned.

---------------



> Math was just the first thing that came to mind but not the best example.


thats ALL i was saying  :Good Job: 





> But to go into a "I'm right" "no I'm right" argument gets nobody anywhere. I just thought it might be important to remember that.


the "im right" "no im right" would be a debate, which the OP invited:




> Let me first explain that I am not trying to start any fights, but I am trying to get some open, and honest debate going on a topic that I feel is long overdue in our Hobby.

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## accidental777

I guess I meant that he was trying to convince everyone that he was being noble or responsible. I have seen people doing this sort of thing for many years with fish, but it shocked and disgusted me a little more with the hybrid pythons.
I understand the curiosity in wanting to know what happens when pairing certain animals, but when you create those animals you are responsible for them. 
I also find it interesting that he waited sooooo long to mention that he was hybridizing animals. I just think maybe he should have been a little more upfront and honest about the whole situation. It seems there were a few facts left out.

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## rabernet

> Yeah, that and I'm not particularly sure whether he's joking so it's better not to take offense to something that could easily be misinterpreted. There's no tone in posts ^^;;.


The fact that he's repeated his belief that low valued animals will be neglected in a pet home, and suffer a fate far worse than being culled, many times throughout this thread would lead to the logical conclusion that he was not joking. 





> I'm not saying we stand by and do nothing when something violates our principles, but after you've said everything you could and the other person still chooses to go their way, it may be seen as hypocritical if you try to force them to see things your way--to imply their intelligence, their ethics, morals, and general attitude as a human being subpar to your own based on one idea they have.


And has he not done the same thing?

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_PigsnPythons_ (09-20-2009)

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## Jason Bowden

Petco sells or has sold normal color phase ball pythons for $29.99.  It will cost more to house the snake properly than the cost of the snake.  I don't think some first time snake keepers  realize this.  It's cool and I can afford that low price.  Not making sense:  how about when they sell ball pythons for $19.99.  Will all of those "cheap" snakes get proper care?  Most people on this forum have seen normals going for $10 at expos.  Do they get proper care?  We hope so.
  Interesting thread.

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## waltah!

> Petco sells or has sold normal color phase ball pythons for $29.99.  It will cost more to house the snake properly than the cost of the snake.  I don't think some first time snake keepers  realize this.  It's cool and I can afford that low price.  Not making sense:  how about when they sell ball pythons for $19.99.  Will all of those "cheap" snakes get proper care?  Most people on this forum have seen normals going for $10 at expos.  Do they get proper care?  We hope so.
>   Interesting thread.


I know people that have cats that were free or $15 that will spend $30 for a cat sweater and a $100 for an automated litter box....just sayin.
I'm sure most of those people buying those $29.99 normals are also being sold tons of overpriced husbandry items right off the bat anyway.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Exactly--the cost of the animal is irrelevent, it's about peoples' attitudes toward that animal.  The only way to fix that is education.

PetCo may sell baby ball pythons that low somewhere, or perhaps on sale, but locally they are at least $60 right now.
A decent setup is more like $120.  PetCo will certainly try to sell them one that costs more than that.  I'm not saying they're good guys, they tend to forget important things like TEMPERATURE CONTROLLERS, but it's still up to a prospective pet owner to read up on what is needed.

By the way, there is no logical reason to be ok with treating fish cruelly, and not ok with treating reptiles cruelly.  The primary difference between them is lungs versus gills, not mental capacity.  Fish are definitely getting the short end of the stick in life.

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## accidental777

Yeah.....fish get treated pretty badly. I wish I could change it, and I try the best I can to do so by trying to properly educate people. It is a loss 90% of the time. People don't learn until they flush a few fish. 
My favorite fish is a hybrid, he is 9 inches long, and likes attention. Nothing short of sticking his head up out of the water for a pat on his head. He makes a great fish ambassador, every time people come over and get to pet or interact with him, it leaves a lasting impression.  
I think the reptile world has it ten times as hard. For every ten good guys, it seems like there is one bad or irresponsible one that ruins it for them. I guess that means that we all just have to try twice as hard to be positive examples. 
As far as the OP is concerned, there are far better ways to hybridize his animals and still get what he wants. I believe it was mentioned in another post that these "mutts" or "ugly animals" could be micro chipped. Or maybe he could just do a better job of screening his potential customers. I think if he is going through the hassle of breeding these animals that he should at least have enough respect to find them a proper home if he can not provide it for them. 
Once again, they are his animals, he has the right to do with them as he sees fit. I just don't see why there can't be some way to do this better for the sake of the animals.

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## p3titexburial

> The fact that he's repeated his belief that low valued animals will be neglected in a pet home, and suffer a fate far worse than being culled, many times throughout this thread would lead to the logical conclusion that he was not joking. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And has he not done the same thing?


Woah, I was referring to H00blah's post after I was told "good luck with that." since it could be taken both ways.

I'm pretty sure the OP's not joking.

Ah, alright, I see where everyone's going now--it's not more so his actions that's unreasonable but his reasons which can't be tolerated. I was looking more towards why his actions were so repulsive when there are acceptable examples all over the world. Gotcha.

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## rabernet

> Ah, alright, I see where everyone's going now--it's not more so his actions that's unreasonable but his reasons which can't be tolerated. I was looking more towards why his actions were so repulsive when there are acceptable examples all over the world. Gotcha.


Exactly. He acquired the animals to feed off his un-desireable snakes to when he made the decision to "save" them from what he considers a far worse fate (a pet home). It wasn't a matter of creating these animals to be feeders, he acquired other animals in order to dispose of his undesireable offspring.

However, I think after not receiving much support on his own forum for this same idea, he then decided to justify his reasons for feeding off the "toxic byproduct" of his hybrid breeding, by claiming they would be neglected and abused as pets, therefore, becoming feeders was a far better fate for them.

But then he flips from the well-being of the animal to wanting to keep them out of the breeding pool and reducing the "footprint" of these unfortunate "byproducts" of his breedings. However, as many people asked him on his own forum, and I might have missed him answering - if his reasons behind the culling are really so "noble and honorable" as he wants us to believe, why doesn't he stop creating these hybrids and thus creating these "mutts" as he refers to them, and buy the animals he wants to add to his collection from other breeders?

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_cinderbird_ (09-20-2009)

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## olstyn

> However, as many people asked him on his own forum, and I might have missed him answering - if his reasons behind the culling are really so "noble and honorable" as he wants us to believe, why doesn't he stop creating these hybrids and thus creating these "mutts" as he refers to them, and buy the animals he wants to add to his collection from other breeders?


That would by necessity be supporting the creation of the same problem he's complaining about, as it would just mean that he was buying from someone who's doing the same thing.  I agree with your overall stance (and once again, what you do with your "low-value" babies is AWESOME), but this question was logically inconsistent, as buying the hoped-for end result of his breedings rather than doing the breedings himself would only take the process out of his control, rather than actually stopping it.  Many "mutts" would still be created in order for him to acquire an albino granite jag carpet python (3-subspecies double recessive co-dom, if that's what he's after).

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## wilomn

> Exactly. He acquired the animals to feed off his un-desireable snakes to when he made the decision to "save" them from what he considers a far worse fate (a pet home). It wasn't a matter of creating these animals to be feeders, he acquired other animals in order to dispose of his undesireable offspring.
> 
> However, I think after not receiving much support on his own forum for this same idea, he then decided to justify his reasons for feeding off the "toxic byproduct" of his hybrid breeding, by claiming they would be neglected and abused as pets, therefore, becoming feeders was a far better fate for them.
> 
> But then he flips from the well-being of the animal to wanting to keep them out of the breeding pool and reducing the "footprint" of these unfortunate "byproducts" of his breedings. However, as many people asked him on his own forum, and I might have missed him answering - if his reasons behind the culling are really so "noble and honorable" as he wants us to believe, why doesn't he stop creating these hybrids and thus creating these "mutts" as he refers to them, and buy the animals he wants to add to his collection from other breeders?





> That would by necessity be supporting the creation of the same problem he's complaining about, as it would just mean that he was buying from someone who's doing the same thing.  I agree with your overall stance (and once again, what you do with your "low-value" babies is AWESOME), but this question was logically inconsistent, as buying the hoped-for end result of his breedings rather than doing the breedings himself would only take the process out of his control, rather than actually stopping it.  Many "mutts" would still be created in order for him to acquire an albino granite jag carpet python (3-subspecies double recessive co-dom, if that's what he's after).


It may be supporting but it is not contributing.

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## Ginevive

To me, culling healthy animals, should not be resorted to. I don't like the idea of just unloading your offspring by culling. There could be an entry-level hobbyist, or a low-budget person who can't afford a more-expensive morph, who would take your unwanted animals as an adoption. I had several normals befoer we moved, who were not going to be big money-earners; they were normal males. I was able to find an awesome guy locally to take them in; I trusted the adopter, and it was a win-win, because he just wanted some BPs as pets; nothing fancy for breeding. If culling were acceptable; would it have been permissable for me, to just kill-off my healthy males because I no longer wanted them? Wow; if people did that with dogs and cats, they'd possibly be jailed!

I would at least make the effort to find a decent adoptee.Even if it's no $ gain on my part, I could go to bed knowing that that day, I made a snake-wanting human happy, and got a snake into a good home. Killing-off should be reserved for hopelessly ill or suffering animals. 

I should add: adoptees should be screened and quizzed. I am also not a fan of unloading unwanted animals onto low-income people who "can't afford to buy one for cash." They also can't afford potential vet bills.. the shoe has to fit, IMO, for an adoption.

As for the emotional aspect of this: I am a human, and I have emotions. To me, killing off a healthy animal who could have a chance at a better life somewhere else, feels Wrong.

The feeder aspect brings to light some other thoughts of mine that I will post about shortly.

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## olstyn

> It may be supporting but it is not contributing.


By buying combo morph animals, he would be creating additional demand for them, thus contributing to the "problem" of "mutt" offspring production.

I'm beginning to get the feeling that you just enjoy antagonizing people, and have chosen me as your new target since the OP seems to have vacated the premises.  Try to at least remember that while I've disagreed with you on some of the finer points, we're *basically* on the same side here.

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## Mike Schultz

Somebody will buy your animals... if not, lower the price. Simple as that.

Nothing wrong with feeding a cobra some extra normal baby ball pythons, but I dont feel theres any *need* for the actual methodical "culling" of snakes.

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## anatess

I may have missed this info after 24 pages of this thread... but what is this guy doing business as?  Or even, what is his name?  Where is this forum he has that everybody is referring to?  I just wanted to know because we might be purchasing another snake within the next 2 years and I want to be sure I don't get one from him.

I'm pretty disgusted at his allegation that just because we don't spend a lot of money on our snakes that our snakes would be dead in 2 years.  You tell my 8-year-old that and you'll be clobbered on the head with his lightsaber.

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## MsPrada

> would it have been permissable for me, to just kill-off my healthy males because I no longer wanted them? Wow; if people did that with dogs and cats, they'd possibly be jailed!



I do have to say this. It is actually permissible to kill off your cats and dogs if you don't want them. It must be done in a humane way, such as gun shot to the head or throat slitting, but It is perfectly legal. I am in no way saying I'd do this, but depending on where you are most states allow it.

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## rabernet

> That would by necessity be supporting the creation of the same problem he's complaining about, as it would just mean that he was buying from someone who's doing the same thing.  I agree with your overall stance (and once again, what you do with your "low-value" babies is AWESOME), but this question was logically inconsistent, as buying the hoped-for end result of his breedings rather than doing the breedings himself would only take the process out of his control, rather than actually stopping it.  Many "mutts" would still be created in order for him to acquire an albino granite jag carpet python (3-subspecies double recessive co-dom, if that's what he's after).


I see your point, BUT, his culling "part" of the clutch HE produces, only reduces this "footprint" he talks about, much less than if he didn't produce at all. If he didn't produce that clutch at all, how many more babies aren't contributing to the footprint now? If he produces and only culls undesireables, then he's still ADDING to the footprint of carpets and not reducing a thing, vs not breeding at all. 

Hope that made sense.

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## ShawnC

> It has nothing to do with using these animals as feeders ... that's just some sugar coated cover story to make people feel better about his decision to breed animals that will produce so-called genetically toxic "by-product" and kill them ... this is about protecting the OPs investment animals.
> 
> I understand that an argument can be made that killing rodents is also in a sense protecting an investment, but my question is if the next step after killing rodents is killing normal siblings or "genetic mutts", what's the step after that? Will we one day be advocating the killing of mousers? Or female ball pythons that don't make it to 1500 grams in 18 months? Or males that don't breed at six months of age? For once we decide that killing certain animals is "good for the hobby", you can't stuff that back into the box.
> 
> Blessings,
> 
> -adam


This is a misrepresentation of what I am saying as fact.  If I opt to sell hybridized normal appearing siblings to keep them from being sold as pure animals at some point in the future, that is protecting the pure lines of carpet pythons in the hobby already (since we can't get more...this is REALLY important).  I LOSE money by not selling them.  It has nothing to do with protecting my investment.  If that were the case, I'd keep all the hets and breed them, but I don't, because they can, ultimatly be represented by someone else as something they are not...ie a coastal...or an IJ...

In order to protect from this eventuality, the best I can do is label them as hybrid f I sell them BUT, some will, eventually be sold as pure by someone who doesn't know any better.

And I stick to my guns.  I see lots of big, brown snakes out there, that are obvious hybrids...that people can't hardly give away.  They are doomed to very poor quality lives...so why would I make that problem worse?

S~

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## Adam_Wysocki

> so why would I make that problem worse?


I'm sorry, I forget ... what is the so-called problem this time?

I thought (based on your own words) you were killing these animals to be used as feeders? You know, you're whole blame the people that feed rodents to justify your killing thing.

I thought (based on your own words) you were single handedly saving the reptile hobby by killing worthless snakes and reducing our so-called "footprint" so that the legislators will leave us alone? You know, you're whole blame the irresponsible people letting animals go in the everglades as well as politicians to justify your killing thing.

I thought (based on your own words) that you were saving these animals from a life of neglect at the hands of irresponsible keepers that you are so absolutely sure are out there waiting to buy your animals and abuse them. You know, you're whole blame the irresponsible public that abuses animals to justify your killing thing.

Now it's genetic purity again? We shouldn't blame you for killing, we should blame the people that you'd sell these animals to that would end up misrepresenting them? It's they're fault you have to kill these snakes? 

Gotcha.

Blessings,

-adam

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_cinderbird_ (09-21-2009),_Ginevive_ (09-21-2009)

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## Ginevive

> I do have to say this. It is actually permissible to kill off your cats and dogs if you don't want them. It must be done in a humane way, such as gun shot to the head or throat slitting, but It is perfectly legal. I am in no way saying I'd do this, but depending on where you are most states allow it.


I was unaware of that; thanks for clearing it up. I know of someone who put their sick dog down with a single shot to the head (it was instantaneous) and they went about it by being secretive, so I was unsure if it were legal or not.

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## ShawnC

Sorry for the abscence, but sometimes it's good to let a thread develop a little on it's own so that it doesn't turn into a parsing match.  besides...weekends are for downtime.

This discussion was started 3 years ago at another forum ,which I now own, but didn't found.  The interesting thing in the Carpet Python hobby right now is there are several new morphs.  The problem with morphs, is that peole want to combine them, and in carpet pythons...they occure in different subspecies:  Here is an example

Jaguar:  Coastal
Zebra:   Jungle
Granite:   Irian Jaya
Caramel:  Coastal
Tiger:  Coastal
Striped:  Bredli
Albino:  Darwin
Axanthic: Coastal
I am sure i am forgeting 1 or two, but you get the idea.

Althought these are all carpet pythons...they are all distinct subspecies (although the arguement can, and has been made, that thay should not be, as they are not distinct enough, with the exception of Bredli)

So the problem arises when you combine these animals, you have "normal" appearing offsping as well.  Spining these off to the public, labels correectly or not, muddies the gene pool for those looking for "pure" animals.

Hence, what happens is, later in their lives if they live that long, you see big, brown, obvious hybrid carpet pythons that are very, very hard to find homes for.

This is a problem that is almost unique to Carpets right now, as the morph craze has bled over into carpet pythons.  As a hobbiest who see's the value  on both sides (I really do enjoy crossing morphs to see what will be created) I have to spin off hybrid or "Mutt" offspring ass well.  This means I am part of the problem of muddying up the gene pool when i create these.  I used to just sell them off as what they were, but have learned personally, that this just doesn't work, as it's REALLY bad for the captive gene pool of carpets (which is already really  messed up BTW) because many are just sold as a "jungle" or a "coastal" when they want to resell them, which is inaccurate...and sucks if you are a purist.

As we spin off lots of these siblings (remember, carpets can have up to 40 eggs per clutch, depending on the subspecies) they can do lots of damage, and may, if not most of them will have lives that will end badly (again, IMHO).

I tried to adapt this arguement for ball pythons since this is a Ball Python forum.  You guys have no problems with hybridization, but you produce a TON of normals.  I wondered if any of you thought along the lines that I do, that it may be better to just cull some of your offpsring.  Resoundingly with you guys, that answer is no, but you respect my choice to do what I want as an idividual.  No matter how well I tried to play devil's advocate.   8-)  I suspect that many of you are pet owners, and have not yet crossed into the realm of breeding lots of babies, but when you do, it does create its own set of ethical challenges, and I thought it would be interesting to hear what you all thought.  I have bee challenged by the position that I put myself in, and I am trying my best to do what I feel is right for my animals and my hobby daily.

Thank you all for allowing this discussion, and thanks to those of you who have been respectful in your questions and answers.  All posts like this are intended for is to discuss things that may, or may not, be completely popular with everyone, and see what sorts of ideas can come from it, and see if any solutions can be suggested, if anyone has one?

Lastly, I want to say that, I am in the minority of Carpet People.  Like most of you, most of the carpet python community, even if they agree that we have a problem, don't have the heart to cull a healthy animal, even if it's a hybrid.  In truth, I don't either, which is why I started to feed them to something else.  It's a more comgfortable solution to me than just freezing them, and just makes it "acceptable" to me on some level, though I don't like it.

Anyway thanks again for the input guys, and thanks forum Admins for allowing the discussion.  It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion.  I am not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable.  

I'll go back to lurking now.  

S~

----------


## Ginevive

Sure, large and small breeders, will produce alot of normals. What better way to build up future clientele, then to nurture your normals (the same,exact way that you'd nutrure and feed your morphs) and sell them to entry-level hobbyists? Instead of just wasting the snakes and feeding them off.

If you view them as expendible commodities in an over-flooded market, then to me, you should not breed them!

Also, to me,culling-off "ugly normals" is one step away from neglecting them. If you have some pretty morphs,and the normals will die anyway, how hard is it to rationalize the "well, then I won't feed the normals as much.. they're just going to the canners anyway." I don't believe that I am far off-base with this one.. 

Seems like, if someone wants to cull.. maybe they're too lazy or stingy to care for a snake until it can be found a good home. To me, everyone who breeds, has a responsibility to keep their offspring until it can be sold or adopted out into a great home. Just my thoughts on it; no one has to agree.

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Caskin (09-21-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-29-2009)

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## jglass38

Wow!

Ok, let's see:

Your argument held no water
You were soundly beaten in the "debate"
You had your bare bottom smacked like a petulent youngster  

Now, exit stage left.  Shocking...

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_Adam_Wysocki_ (09-21-2009),_Ginevive_ (09-21-2009),_Jyson_ (09-22-2009),_waltah!_ (09-21-2009)

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## SRX

> It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. I a not one to block free speech on a topic just because it's uncomfotable


So it's ok for YOU to come here and perpetuate a 20+ page post, yet you not only lock, but erase my posting leading the Morelia crowd to YOUR discussion here????  What the hell Shawn?  I wish there was a [ B.S. ] insert quote here [ /B.S ] option.

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_jglass38_ (09-21-2009),_waltah!_ (09-21-2009)

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## Adam_Wysocki

> obvious hybrid carpet pythons that are very, very hard to find homes for.


Well how about, try harder, breed less, or don't breed at all? Because "it's too hard to find them good homes" shouldn't be an excuse for killing anything.




> As a hobbiest who see's the value  on both sides (I really do enjoy crossing morphs to see what will be created) I *HAVE TO* spin off hybrid or "Mutt" offspring ass well.  This means I am part of the problem of muddying up the gene pool when i create these.


That's not true. You don't "HAVE TO" do it. You CHOOSE TO and then you CHOOSE TO kill the less desirable offspring. There are alternatives ... you could only work with homozygous x homozygous pairings (or double/triple homozygous) ... if they don't exist yet, wait. You make it sound like there is no other option than to kill these animals and that is a lie. It's your choice, and try as you will, it is not justified.




> Resoundingly with you guys, that answer is no, but you respect my choice to do what I want as an idividual.


Are we reading the same thread? You lost me with the whole "respect" part.




> I am trying my best to do what I feel is right for my animals


By KILLING them?




> Lastly, I want to say that, I am in the minority of Carpet People.


Thank god.




> Like most of you, most of the carpet python community, even if they agree that we have a problem, don't have the heart to cull a healthy animal, even if it's a hybrid.  In truth, I don't either, which is why I started to feed them to something else.  It's a more comgfortable solution to me than just freezing them, and just makes it "acceptable" to me on some level, though I don't like it.


For someone that doesn't "like it", you sure have come up with a whole lot of justification to continue to do it ... so obviously, you don't "not like it" enough to think about stopping or focusing your energy on solutions that don't involve the killing of healthy animals.




> Here is an example
> 
> Jaguar:  Coastal
> Zebra:   Jungle
> Granite:   Irian Jaya
> Caramel:  Coastal
> Tiger:  Coastal
> Striped:  Bredli
> Albino:  Darwin
> Axanthic: Coastal


I'll give you an A+ for creating this thread here to market your business and forum though, even if I am completely disgusted by your ethics, you're marketing is pretty clever albeit completely transparent. 

Blessings,

-adam

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_cinderbird_ (09-21-2009),_jglass38_ (09-21-2009),_Jyson_ (09-22-2009),matt71915 (09-21-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (09-21-2009),_waltah!_ (09-21-2009)

----------


## Adam_Wysocki

> Originally Posted by ShawnC
> 
> It's nearly taboo on my own forums as well, but one that every year or so comes up, and always ends with an extremely interesting discussion. *I a not one to block free speech* on a topic just because it's uncomfotable
> 
> 
> So it's ok for YOU to come here and perpetuate a 20+ page post, yet you *not only lock, but erase my posting leading the Morelia crowd to YOUR discussion here????*  What the hell Shawn?  I wish there was a [ B.S. ] insert quote here [ /B.S ] option.


WOW ... more lies ... shocker.

-adam

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## wilomn

> Sorry for the abscence, but sometimes it's good to let a thread develop a little on it's own so that it doesn't turn into a parsing match.  besides...weekends are for downtime.
> 
> This discussion was started 3 years ago at another forum ,which I now own, but didn't found.  The interesting thing in the Carpet Python hobby right now is there are several new morphs.  The problem with morphs, is that peole want to combine them, and in carpet pythons...they occure in different subspecies:  Here is an example
> 
> Jaguar:  Coastal
> Zebra:   Jungle
> Granite:   Irian Jaya
> Caramel:  Coastal
> Tiger:  Coastal
> ...


I'm so glad you appreciate the attitude here, that will comfort me on sleepless nights.

If you care so deeply about muddying the gene pool, stop breeding mutts.

If you really want to see only pure lines, only breed pure animals.

Blaming the mutts you create for making you have to kill them is somehow just not right. It seems to me that your desire for your morphs outweighs your dislike of killing. So, the question then becomes, what is so desirable about these morphs that you will kill normal looking offspring in order to obtain said morphs? 

If you only wanted one or two of each of these morphs, display animals so to speak, being the well heeled man you've presented yourself as, you would simply purchase them from a breeder who specialized in carpets and was hopefully holding true to breeding true.

But you haven't even come close enough to that one to have missed it by a mile.

You don't want a couple of each just because they're pretty or rare or neat to have or you wouldn't be breeding them. You're not philanthropic about your breeding or you wouldn't be charging money for the babies you don't kill. Therefore, I must take the chance and assume, you're in it for the money.

If you didn't want the money more than you didn't want to kill baby snakes, you wouldn't be breeding them at all.

It just seems like you're lying.

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## jglass38

> WOW ... more lies ... shocker.
> 
> -adam


It is an honor to know you, Mr. Wysocki.  I feel enlightened by what I have learned from you in this very thread.  I am proud to call you a friend!  

I am also truly humbled to have spent 5 glorious years as a member of this great forum that allows us to speak our minds and learn from each other to grow not only as people, but as animal owners and caretakers.

What more can I do with my 10,000th post on this forum but to use that privilege provided to me by bp.net to speak my mind and say to Shawn C...

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!  

In light,

Jamie

P.S. Joe: You have some catching up to do!  :Wink:

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_waltah!_ (09-21-2009)

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## ShawnC

> WOW ... more lies ... shocker.
> 
> -adam


SRX's thread was deleted because we have one rule at our forum.  Play nice, and be respectful.  SRX was intentionally picking fights with me because he doesn't like the new format on our boards, and whenever I would shut him down with an answer, he would come up with something else he doesn't like.  All of our threads are still available to comment on, including the culling threads, with the exception of one, which I locked because the forum members requested it.  SRX was not blicked from my site, which is an option, I just deleted a thread that had nothing to do with culling, and everything to do with him complaining about the new format.  Yes, he tried to bring people to this thread, which I am fine with im linking, I have never made any bones about my thoughts about culling.

S~

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## wilomn

> SRX's thread was deleted because we have one rule at our forum.  Play nice, and be respectful.  SRX was intentionally picking fights with me because he doesn't like the new format on our boards, and whenever I would shut him down with an answer, he would come up with something else he doesn't like.  All of our threads are still available to comment on, including the culling threads, with the exception of one, which I locked because the forum members requested it.  SRX was not blicked from my site, which is an option, I just deleted a thread that had nothing to do with culling, and everything to do with him complaining about the new format. 
> 
> S~


And having caught you in several lies here, on this site, we should just believe you.....why?

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## ShawnC

> And having caught you in several lies here, on this site, we should just believe you.....why?


Name 1?

S~

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## SRX

> SRX's thread was deleted because we have one rule at our forum.  Play nice, and be respectful.  SRX was intentionally picking fights with me because he doesn't like the new format on our boards, and whenever I would shut him down with an answer, he would come up with something else he doesn't like.  All of our threads are still available to comment on, including the culling threads, with the exception of one, which I locked because the forum members requested it.  SRX was not blicked from my site, which is an option, I just deleted a thread that had nothing to do with culling, and everything to do with him complaining about the new format. S~


Shawn.  Stop.  I was not intentionally picking fights with you and stop making it sound like it was alot of numerous posts.

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## ShawnC

> Shawn.  Stop.  I was not intentionally picking fights with you and stop making it sound like it was alot of numerous posts.


You didn't post a thread about the new format?  Thats the thread i deleted, and after a week or so of no coments, and me basically answering your claims, you start up again by bringing that thread back to the top and posting a link to this thread, which again, you can post in a seperate thread, without bring up the original one where you are complaining.

S~

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## wilomn

> Name 1?
> 
> S~


You don't remember?

You're saying everything you've written is the truth?

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## ShawnC

> You don't remember?
> 
> You're saying everything you've written is the truth?


Sigh...again with the accusations and no proof.  I think this makes 3 times... in this thread alone?

Guys, I said my peace, and thanked you all for the discussion.  thats about thebest I cna do.  I won't keep bantering withthe guys who say "I won" when there was only a debate/discussion, and not a competition.  For those of you who are offended, I am sorry.  for those of you who sent me PM's thanking me for being the whipping post on a tough subject...thanks.  8-)

S~

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## wilomn

> Sigh...again with the accusations and no proof.  I think this makes 3 times... in this thread alone?
> 
> Guys, I said my peace, and thanked you all for the discussion.  thats about thebest I cna do.  I won't keep bantering withthe guys who say "I won" when there was only a debate/discussion, and not a competition.  For those of you who are offended, I am sorry.  for those of you who sent me PM's thanking me for being the whipping post on a tough subject...thanks.  8-)
> 
> S~


So, you did forget.

Your act was good, but I don't think martyr is your defining role.

Whining schoolboy is more you.

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## waltah!

> Sigh...again with the accusations and no proof.  I think this makes 3 times... in this thread alone?
> 
> Guys, I said my peace, and thanked you all for the discussion.  thats about thebest I cna do.  I won't keep bantering withthe guys who say "I won" when there was only a debate/discussion, and not a competition.  For those of you who are offended, I am sorry.  for those of you who sent me PM's thanking me for being the whipping post on a tough subject...thanks.  8-)
> 
> S~


I'm gonna go out on a limb here as a member of the staff (speaking for himself only). You sir, are full of crap. 
Good day.

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ballpythonluvr (09-21-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-21-2009),_jglass38_ (09-21-2009),_Jyson_ (09-22-2009)

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## Adam_Wysocki

> I won't keep bantering withthe guys who say "I won"


You still don't get it ... as long as healthy animals are being killed for no other reason than because they are your so called by-product from your quest to make designer mutations to be sold for big bucks ... no one wins.

Blessings,

-adam

----------

ballpythonluvr (09-21-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-21-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-21-2009),_Jyson_ (09-22-2009),_monk90222_ (09-21-2009),rabernet (09-21-2009),_waltah!_ (09-21-2009)

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## MikeCurtin

I'll try to be breif here, but there are a few points I'd like to make.

This whole euthanasia to spare suffering or low quality of life concept is not new. It was quite prevalent in both Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia. Of course there is a difference, but that difference is only on scale.

This discussion started, Shawn, as one based upon purity, morphs, and the market. Now you are trying to compare these animals to ones intentionally bred for food. Never mind the fact that you have no shortage of food for the animals they feed, nor do you have any animals that require snakes as food. It seems to me that you feed these to your other animals because it eases your conscience more than if you just killed them outright. 

As far as price/beauty is concerned, I paid $1200 on a female Leary Jag a few years ago. Upon receipt, the animal was malnourished, dehydrated, and mite infested. This was an 18 month old animal that undoubtedly cost more originally than what I paid for it. There goes that whole value=care theory.

Last season, you produced at least one clutch of very nice Jungle Jag mutts, didn't you? What happened to all the normal siblings? Were they spared a miserable existence, or did you send them off to lives of ultimate suffering? Why in the world would someone so concerned about the lives of "low value" animals put two animals together to produce low value animals? That doesn't make sense.

I recently sent an UGLY "mutt" American ratsnake integrade to a woman in Texas. It cost me more to send her this gift than what I made on the actual sale animal I shipped it with. My reward was a heart-warming video of these animals on the news as part of an educational program. Well cared for, loved, and appreciated.

Why on earth would you close the thread on your own website about this topic only to open one here? Again, it doesn't make sense, and in my opinion, it's borderline schizophrenic. Perhaps in the future you can do us all a favor and preface an argument such as this with the disclaimer that you do not represent the vast majority of the carpet python community, but you are rather an exception to the rule...and a rather disheartening one at that.

Mike Curtin

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_Adam_Wysocki_ (09-21-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-21-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-21-2009),dr del (09-21-2009),_Ginevive_ (09-22-2009),_jglass38_ (09-21-2009),_Jyson_ (09-22-2009),Mattyboy525 (09-22-2009),MsPrada (09-22-2009),rabernet (09-21-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (09-21-2009),_waltah!_ (09-21-2009)

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## ShawnC

> Why on earth would you close the thread on your own website about this topic only to open one here? 
> 
> Mike Curtin


Actually I opened this one within a day of the other being opened because I was curious to see what another community would say.  I closed the one on the Carpet forum because, simply, a couple of people asked me too, and the discussion had run it's course.  It's all right there in the thread.  The very first one we started, years ago, was a very long thread, much like this one.  I think it's still open actually, it just died on it's own...I think it's 3 or 4 years old now.

S~

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## Eventide

Okay, so let's run with the "I don't want people mis-representing animals so I cull them" argument, except with ball pythons.

The very same thing can be done to ANY ball python (though it probably happens more often with normals).  People can say an animal is het for whatever and sell it for more money, whether it truly is or not.  Many scumbags in the hobby do this with their normals in an effort to get rid of them and/or get more money for them.  Should we cull all the normal ball pythons because they might be mis-represented in the future?  What about all of the other morphs--they can be mis-represented just as easily!

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## MikeCurtin

> Actually I opened this one within a day of the other being opened because I was curious to see what another community would say.  I closed the one on the Carpet forum because, simply, a couple of people asked me too, and the discussion had run it's course.  It's all right there in the thread.  The very first one we started, years ago, was a very long thread, much like this one.  I think it's still open actually, it just died on it's own...I think it's 3 or 4 years old now.
> 
> S~



My mistake, Shawn...I apologize. Any response to my other points? I tried to keep the tone down on MP just because I thought it was in the best interest of everyone not to let the discussion get too out of control. It seems that this debate now has some legs, and I would really like to know your thoughts.

Mike

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## SRX

I waited a bit to see if you would post it here as well.  Guess not, so no real way to know without asking.  And since you are so trigger happy with the "blicking", I'll ask here.....Was your posting true that you do not even own an arrowana or any white throats (might have been you own a very small one?), or was that a fabrication that was conveniently and quickly deleted on moreliapythonsdotcom?

----------


## Ginevive

> It is an honor to know you, Mr. Wysocki.  I feel enlightened by what I have learned from you in this very thread.  I am proud to call you a friend!  
> 
> I am also truly humbled to have spent 5 glorious years as a member of this great forum that allows us to speak our minds and learn from each other to grow not only as people, but as animal owners and caretakers.
> 
> What more can I do with my 10,000th post on this forum but to use that privilege provided to me by bp.net to speak my mind and say to Shawn C...
> 
> BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!  
> 
> In light,
> ...


Great post  :Smile:  Happy 10,000th!  :Smile: 
Thanks for calling-out Adam on being awesome in this thread; I second that.

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## accidental777

Your whole post describing why you have to cull the snakes you create because they are mutts is crap. 
You take the pretty mutts and sell them. When you do this, you take the same amount of risk (muddying purity) of an animal being mislabeled or being used to breed more mutts. 
You just cull the ugly ones because they won't bring in as much profit, and you can prevent others from being able to make a profit when the animal becomes breedable. 
If you are sooooo worried about the purity of your carpet pythons, because you can not get anymore then stop breeding them and you will stop contributing to the problem.

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MikeCurtin (09-22-2009)

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## MikeCurtin

> Your whole post describing why you have to cull the snakes you create because they are mutts is crap. 
> You take the pretty mutts and sell them. When you do this, you take the same amount of risk (muddying purity) of an animal being mislabeled or being used to breed more mutts. 
> You just cull the ugly ones because they won't bring in as much profit, and you can prevent others from being able to make a profit when the animal becomes breedable. 
> If you are sooooo worried about the purity of your carpet pythons, because you can not get anymore then stop breeding them and you will stop contributing to the problem.


And that's when we get to the heart of things. It's not about culling animals based on deformities, defects, or "weak" genetics. If anything, the genetics on the animals Shawn is killing is better and more diverse than "pure" animals because these animals have been outcrossed with different gene pools. 

I think we all know that if we breed 2 different subspecies together, the result will be integrades. If you don't want integrades, don't put the animals together...PERIOD!!! Don't tell me about how you are killing these animals for their own good or to protect the purity or genetics of the captive carpet population. Again, if you hate killing these animals so much, stop producing them.

Notice that I only used the word "cull" when referring to deformed/weak  animals. What Shawn is talking about is not culling....it's killing.

Mike Curtin

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_Adam_Wysocki_ (09-22-2009),ballpythonluvr (09-23-2009),_catawhat75_ (09-22-2009),_cinderbird_ (09-22-2009),HeartAche (09-22-2009),_Jyson_ (09-22-2009)

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## jdmls88

No offense but dude youve got some screws loose, and its ok cuz I said no offense  :Very Happy:

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## TheOtherLeadingBrand

No way- if I had more normals than I could find homes for, I wouldn't breed them anymore, honestly. This makes me feel depressed. I have normals hatching as we speak. They're not worthless extras. They're living, breathing beings. Two are going to live (for free) with long time (years and years) friends of mine with proven histories of caring pet ownership. The third will find a good home or stay with us. When we had a male adult ball we had no need for in our breeding, I gave him to yet another of my long time friends, and he's an important and loved part of their family.

Certain dog breeds have histories of culling too- simply for color and markings! Even in breeds where those markings are acceptable (just not the current show ring fad). Ugh, ugh, and ugh! If there aren't enough pet homes for mismarked dogs or normal ball pythons, then simple- stop making more.

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## Jerhart

So...how's it going everyone?













 :Smile:

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## Colin Vestrand

couple points, one - i do not agree with shawn.
two, it is not at all appropriate to villify him just because you don't agree with him.  a parallelism could easily be made between this and the pro-life/pro-choice debate.  believe what you want, people, but don't pass judgement...

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_Eventide_ (09-23-2009),_mainbutter_ (09-23-2009),MarkS (09-23-2009),_python.princess_ (09-23-2009)

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## Nae

> couple points, one - i do not agree with shawn.
> two, it is not at all appropriate to villify him just because you don't agree with him.  a parallelism could easily be made between this and the pro-life/pro-choice debate.  believe what you want, people, but don't pass judgement...


No it's more like being anti-abortion and going ahead and getting pregnant intentionally then ending it in abortion while saying "It's ok the world is overpopulated anyway."

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## wilomn

> couple points, one - i do not agree with shawn.
> two, it is not at all appropriate to villify him just because you don't agree with him.  a parallelism could easily be made between this and the pro-life/pro-choice debate.  believe what you want, people, but don't pass judgement...


I don't think judgement was passed based on what he's doing.

I think it was more the lies and bullcrap he piled up on his various theories why it's better to kill than keep.

And for that, yeah, he's _not a hero_. Not for feeding snakes to whatever, just his reasoning, more like excuses, to do so.

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## Colin Vestrand

i guess i just disagree... there were insults, accusation, and insinuations from the start.  i'm not saying everyone did it, a lot of people (especially the mods) did not.  but... i guess i wasn't referring to everyone here.

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_python.princess_ (09-23-2009)

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## wilomn

> i guess i just disagree... there were insults, accusation, and insinuations from the start.  i'm not saying everyone did it, a lot of people (especially the mods) did not.  but... i guess i wasn't referring to everyone here.


Nope, reckon not.

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## Adam_Wysocki

COLOR ME GUILTY!

Yup, I judged ... and will continue to do so. Not only do I disagree with someone that kills healthy snakes for the sake of creating a "sustainable model" for his/her business when there are perfectly good options for preserving those snakes lives, but I feel that they are morally bankrupt as well.

No different than when I watched a guy in a car the other day swerve into on coming traffic in order to run over a turtle in the road and I chased him down just to let him know what a scum bag I thought he was.

If it will save the life of even one healthy animal from dying for no other reason than the callousness of a human beings greed, I'll judge all day long and be good and loud and annoying about it.

And if the OP were to change his ways and stop advocating the killing of healthy animals for the sake of a sustainable business model ... then I'll judge him as a better person.

Blessings,

-adam

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## cinderbird

> COLOR ME GUILTY!
> 
> No different than when I watched a guy in a car the other day swerve into on coming traffic in order to run over a turtle in the road and I chased him down just to let him know what a scum bag I thought he was.


tangent time:

SOMEONE SERIOUSLY DID THIS?! what is WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE. 

Kudos to you for going after him for this. 

/end capslock and tangent time.

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## lps2

Ok, so I am gonna come at this from both a business and ethical sense, and I don't think ShawnC's decision meets the criteria of either.

So it is understood that despite the inherent beauty of all snakes, morph or normal, in the eyes of potential buyers there is a large difference (both aesthetically and monetarily). Now for the good of being able to cover the costs of one's hobby, one needs to sell the higher demand morphs and whatnot first. Once those bases are covered its on to the "ugly" (hate that term, they are just in less demand, they are certainly NOT ugly!) ones. 

To make the assumption that selling the normals/less desired snakes at a lower cost means that the prospective owner will value it any less and thus provide a lower quality of life is a FAR stretch. If they are sold at wholesale to a chain, etc... than look at who will be buying them, people who want them as PETS. Though ShawnC doesn't seem to view them as pets, the majority of individuals who will be in the market for a normal snake doesn't care about morphs/doesn't know, so they are equally as valuable to them as your prized Lavender Albino, they love them the same. Sure there will be some bad owners or more common owners that simply do not know any better. So i think the argument that to use them as feeders is better for the SNAKE just doesn't fly

Now on to cost, i think that it is perfectly reasonable to use snakes as feeders IF it is natural for that animal to eat snakes AND the potential cost of the snakes by weight is lower than the cost of comparable food source by weight. for instance if they can/do eat mice and snakes and the potential market price of the 120 gram snake is $10 while 120 grams worth of mice is $12 assuming all other nutritional needs are met, I find it acceptable to use the snakes as feeders just as people use mice as feeders. However, I think that in most all cases either snakes are not the natural food source of the animal, snakes would not provide all the same nutritional value, and the cost of alternative food sources is cheaper. 

I think that the OP's view towards his snakes as different from his dogs is upsetting, I would be equally upset if I lost Aldous or my dog Mischa. However, I do understand the financial decisions that have to be made, but since the discussion seems to have gravitated towards ethical reasons rather than financial reasons I don't think that the risk that the snake might have a lower quality of life justifies the killing of that animal especially when there are willing buyers for them!

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## Samuel

5 days old .. this isn't "necroposting" is it?

I just wanted to say that my male normal I paid $70 for about a year and a half ago is my all time favorite snake.  The dude was bought as a pet, treated as a pet, and loved as a pet.  He is the jewel of my collection as far as I am concerned.  I have several awesome snakes, some look killer and some are just normal, but they all have their own personalities .. and they are all cared for as if they were the only one in existence because .. well, they are.

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_mooingtricycle_ (09-28-2009)

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## mooingtricycle

> tangent time:
> 
> SOMEONE SERIOUSLY DID THIS?! what is WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE. 
> 
> Kudos to you for going after him for this. 
> 
> /end capslock and tangent time.


Unfortunately, people do it all the time. Theyre jerks. 

I saw a MASSIVE snapping turtle out here, in the middle of the road, dead ( I turned around because i thought it was crossing, and i was going to help it get where it was going safely, but one look at its shell told me all i needed to know.) i know someone purposely hit that animal. there was no way NOT to avoid it, it was the biggest snapper ive ever personally seen around here wild.

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## tiexecutioner

my opinion (without reading the whole thread it to long  :Razz: ) That killing perfectly healthy snakes because their not that valuable or ugly is WRONG if you don't want to sell them give them away and trust me people would love to have a normal as a nice pet. How would you fell if your mom killed you  because you were ugly? Im not tying to insult at all but just think about this.

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## MarkS

> my opinion (without reading the whole thread it to long ) That killing perfectly healthy snakes because their not that valuable or ugly is WRONG if you don't want to sell them give them away and trust me people would love to have a normal as a nice pet. How would you fell if your mom killed you  because you were ugly? Im not tying to insult at all but just think about this.


Posts like this are what really bother me.... We are NOT talking about people...  We are talking about ANIMALS... Please do NOT get the two confused, they are NOT the same thing...

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_abuja_ (09-28-2009),_Eventide_ (09-28-2009),h00blah (09-28-2009)

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## wilomn

> my opinion (without reading the whole thread it to long ) That killing perfectly healthy snakes because their not that valuable or ugly is WRONG if you don't want to sell them give them away and trust me people would love to have a normal as a nice pet. How would you fell if your mom killed you  because you were ugly? Im not tying to insult at all but just think about this.





> Posts like this are what really bother me.... We are NOT talking about people...  We are talking about ANIMALS... Please do NOT get the two confused, they are NOT the same thing...


No matter how you "fell" about it.

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## _Venom_

Why does everyone get so mad when someone on here posts that their snake died because of a mistake then? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## wilomn

> Why does everyone get so mad when someone on here posts that their snake died because of a mistake then?


Perhaps it's just me, but what does this question have to do with this thread?

Start a new one if you really want to know.

And, once again, you've ass umed in error.

Not everyone gets mad about those things.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

This is just a reduculas thread... My "opinion" on this matter is this.. I would only cull if the snake was deformed in mouth, face or body, noticably kinked or any other obvious abnormalities or health issues.. Only the ones that would hurt the market, endanger future breeding projects or otherwise cause the snake to have a short and unhealthy life...

If its just a normal that looks "ugly" in your opinion, i would just sell them off wholesale or at low "normal" prices.. 

I see no reason to kill just because its ugly. A few very cheap meals of pinky mice or rats, a few sheds, and you can sell it without losing any profit at all. A hobby is something you love to do. That means every aspect of it. 

What do you consider "ugly"? Thats the real question. Is it simply brown & black with no special markings? How can any normal be "ugly" when its just a normal? Even with other types of snakes. What is ugly if there is nothing physically or cosmetically wrong with it?  :Confused:

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_mooingtricycle_ (10-13-2009)

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