# Ball Pythons > BP Husbandry > Advanced BP Husbandry >  tanks vs tubs

## ballpythonluvr

Now I know that there is a lot of controversy over the whole tanks vs tubs argument.  I have my snakes in tanks but I am seriously thinking about swtiching to tubs.  I struggle with humidity a lot and the measures I have to take to remedy that with tanks just seems be real pain in the butt.  My snakes do not have bad sheds or anything but the measures I go through to prevent this are very extreme.  I have to admit also that when it comes time to do a complete cleaning of the tanks, moving them is a real pain in the butt also.  I am trying to convince my boyfriend that tubs are the way to go but he just is not buying into it.  I really need to hear from you guys the pros and cons of tanks vs tubs.  Thank you for your time and your input.

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## shadow120

theres a lot of threads on here about this already but you you got it.  tubs are easier to clean, keep humidity, and takes up less space.  the pros of tanks are they look pretty

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ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011),_satomi325_ (08-22-2011),willieshotg3 (06-03-2011)

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## llovelace

Hands down tubs are the way to go especially if you have multiple animals, they hold humidity better, easier & faster to clean, feeding time goes quicker.

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ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011)

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## Herp4life11

Ya, I just switched from tanks2tubs and everything is so much easier! 

YOU SHOULD SWITCH :Thumbs up:

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ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011)

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## jsmorphs2

Like most have said, tubs are the way to go! In the past I've used glass tanks but now I use racks with tubs. I'll NEVER EVER go back to glass tanks. They never had stable temps or humidity, the big ones are heavy and took up my whole room and they were a pain to clean. I remember spending tons of money on bulbs, lamps, heat pads just too keep the temps up. My electric bill suffered too. It almost doubled and we only had 8 or 9 reptile tanks at the time. 

I alway recommend tubs, especially to beginners. There is so much less to go wrong with them husbandry wise. If they are set up properly and have a GOOD lid or are in a rack, tubs are the way to go!  :Good Job: 

The only pro to glass tanks, some argue, is that the owner can view the snake. The truth is thats only a pro for the owner, its more of a CON for the snake. They are much happier being hidden and tubs provide more solitude for them. You can view your snake when you check them daily and handle them once in a while.

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ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011)

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## DarrinLowe

I would imagine they are much easier to sustain a reliable humidity in? 

More space = More water needed to keep humid?

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ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011)

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## shadow120

> I would imagine they are much easier to sustain a reliable humidity in? 
> 
> More space = More water needed to keep humid?


that and no screen lid

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ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011)

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## Animals As Leaders

Tanks really aren't that hard to hold in the humidity.  You just need to cover 3/4 of the screen with a piece of plexi,  and you should be good as long as you mist.  Also, try to use a low wattage light so your not sucking the humidity out.  Use a low wattage day light bulb, or one of those red heat bulbs.  Snakes are nocturnal and some get stressed from lights.

Another thing you should know about tubs is the ambient temp in the room they are in must be high.  I do recall reading some post about people who use tubs/lights but I am not sure.  I wouldn't use tubs unless you can keep the room warm.  Messing with lights for tubs must be a pain and thats a route I will not venture down.  I personally have two racks in my room right now, and I have a space heater to keep the temps up at around 78 degrees.  And I personally wouldn't have it any other way.  So simple to clean and maintain.  Good luck!!

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ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011),_darkbloodwyvern_ (02-06-2011)

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## anatess

Get a tub that is at least 8" tall, cut out a square on the side and stick a piece of plexiglass on it, decorate the tub to your heart's content...

You get the ambience of a glass tank in the easy-to-maintain tub set-up.  I can show you pictures but man, I think I've posted that same picture 20 times on here already!

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ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011)

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## snakesRkewl

I vote tubs 100% for ball pythons for all the reasons stated.
I ditched my tanks 2 years ago and you couldn't pay me to go back to tanks  :Razz:

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ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011)

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## doctor patches

for me, i don't find the measures to clean/maintain tanks that much. i use the reptile carpets, have two per tank and switch the carpet when it's soiled. for humidity, i have sphagnum moss in a metal bowl on the warm side of the tank, and i just have to spray during shed time. 

feedings are done either in a tub or on the carpet in the living room. i do it on the carpet once they're bigger, my mom had a BP who hit the side of the tub when trying to take a mouse and broke his jaw, died because he couldn't eat. so the baby BP stays in the tub, the adult corn i have eats in the open.

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## Alexandra V

For me, I use tanks for pets, especially the younger ones because it will allow me to monitor them without ripping out their entire home from a rack system to see how they're coming along.

Once I know they're well established, either I keep them in the tank setup for a while if I can keep up the humidity requirements, or move to a tub if I can't or if I run out of space/funds for keeping tanks (I don't just keep reptiles, I keep and care for the tanks they're in too LOL).

Breeders it's a whole other story though. For breeder's I'd prefer to keep them in tubs as much as possible. They won't be pulled out to be handled as much as a pet snake would be (necessarily).

It's all a matter of taste and depends on specific conditions in the area. Some people are able to keep them in tanks no problem, while others have to go through hell and high water to do so.

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_Anya_ (05-19-2011),ballpythonluvr (01-18-2011)

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## DarrinLowe

From what I've read with tubs, you cannot use a light for heating, and that seems logical. I mean, you CAN use one. 

If I were to ever switch to a rack system(which I will be when I move out this spring), I would be investing in some sort of proportional thermostat (Herpstat Pro) and some flexwatt, so that temperatures can be controlled on each level.

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## SlitherinSisters

I personally don't think there is a controversy over tanks or tubs. There is a clear advantage to tubs, but those who want the aesthetic look choose tanks. It's not impossible to keep BPs in a tank, it's just a lot more work. Tubs are so simple! A heat pad, a water dish, a hide, and substrate is all you need! I love my tubs, so simple! And if you want it to be 'pretty' it's still possible, get a little bigger tub that is clear plastic and add fake plants and such.

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## doctor patches

> I personally don't think there is a controversy over tanks or tubs. There is a clear advantage to tubs, but those who want the aesthetic look choose tanks. It's not impossible to keep BPs in a tank, it's just a lot more work. Tubs are so simple! A heat pad, a water dish, a hide, and substrate is all you need! I love my tubs, so simple! And if you want it to be 'pretty' it's still possible, get a little bigger tub that is clear plastic and add fake plants and such.


my tanks are part of the decoration in the living room, so tubs are a no go. but if i can maintain proper heat and humidity conditions in a tank in RENO!!! there shouldn't be a problem doing it anywhere else. reno is high desert, very dry. keeping humidity up was a problem until i started doing the sphagnum moss thing, then spray twice a day during the shed. the temperature swing from day to night is severe, keeping the house a consistent temperature is hard enough, but the tank is pretty consistent. 

"prior preparation prevents piss poor performance"
"keep it simple, stupid"

those are all i had when i started caring for snakes (babysitting my mom's corns, she's a teacher and sometimes i keep 'em over the summer when school is out. the snakes live in the classroom). did a bit of reading, asked some questions. but you don't need to be any kind of expert to execute basic husbandry, and you don't have to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination. snakes are, for the most part, very hearty and can tolerate some climate changes, a few missed feedings, etc. at the end of the day, they know what they need so if you provide choices then they'll be alright.

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_Anya_ (05-19-2011),stevebidw (03-15-2011)

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## anatess

> my tanks are part of the decoration in the living room, so tubs are a no go. but if i can maintain proper heat and humidity conditions in a tank in RENO!!! there shouldn't be a problem doing it anywhere else.


My tubs are part of the decoration in my office, so tubs are still a go.  In Reno, it's ALWAYS dry.  In North Florida, sometimes humidity is at 90, sometimes it is at 0.  Some days it is 30 degrees at night and 70 degrees at high noon.  Where I live, if you don't like the weather, wait 15 minutes.

So yeah, what works for you, doesn't necessarily work for everybody else.

Here's my tub:


And here's my tank:


Now you can stop pontificating because either way is ALL GOOD!

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_Anya_ (05-19-2011),ballpythonluvr (01-19-2011),_darkbloodwyvern_ (02-06-2011)

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## doctor patches

idk what pontificating means, so i'm gonna take that as an insult!  :Razz:

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## anatess

> idk what pontificating means, so i'm gonna take that as an insult!


 :Very Happy:  :Very Happy:  :Very Happy: 
Just wanting to point out that tubs are just as good as tanks.

You made me fall off my chair laughing.  You're a cool chap.

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## doctor patches

i think at the end of the day, it's a matter of preference. for some people, they can't handle the large flux of change in temp and humidity with a tank, some have found ways to make it work. for others, the tub IS the way to make it work, or they have so many snakes that a rack full of tubs is just more convenient. 

i think i just feel bad using the thing i keep old sweaters and christmas decorations in the garage as a habitat for a living creature  :Wink:  plus the black tank trim goes with my feng shui.

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## SlitherinSisters

> Here's my tub:


Oh wow I love your tub! That's the prettiest tub set up I've ever seen!  :Good Job: 

I live in Iowa and run a DEhumidifier year round. Most people don't even know what a dehumidifier is, lol. Even not using one in the summer when the humidity is out of control tanks are still hard to keep humid. Can you do it, sure, but for me personally, pass. I like the brainlessness of tubs  :Razz:  It's good for the newbies too, I consider tanks a set up for experienced keepers or very very devoted ones!

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_anatess_ (02-07-2011)

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## Donald M

[QUOTE=Animals As Leaders;1495103]Tanks really aren't that hard to hold in the humidity.  You just need to cover 3/4 of the screen with a piece of plexi,  and you should be good as long as you mist.  Also, try to use a low wattage light so your not sucking the humidity out.  Use a low wattage day light bulb, or one of those red heat bulbs.  Snakes are nocturnal and some get stressed from lights.

Another thing you should know about tubs is the ambient temp in the room they are in must be high.  I do recall reading some post about people who use tubs/lights but I am not sure.  I wouldn't use tubs unless you can keep the room warm.  Messing with lights for tubs must be a pain and thats a route I will not venture down.  I personally have two racks in my room right now, and I have a space heater to keep the temps up at around 78 degrees.  And I personally wouldn't have it any other way.  So simple to clean and maintain.  Good luck!![/QU

use heat tape never have an issuue with temps in tubs

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## mdfreak2

I have a ball python that I am looking into buying/building a snake rack. He is about 3 to 4 feet. I currently have him in a 55 gallon tank and it is hard to keep the humidity and heat up at the right temp. I am interested in building like a 5 drawer system nothing big at the moment of time. Also if any 1 has a female ball python under $125 for sale please send me a message. Thank you

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## darkbloodwyvern

I'm switching to a rack system.  I  a.) have too many snakes not to b.) am sick of dealing with the crappy locks on my snake's cages getting stuck c.) don't make the cages look all that nice ANYWAY d.) want something that takes up less space and makes it easier to harass my snakes that doesn't involve clips/keys and locks/ and messing with putting a lid somewhere so I can kick it around and bruise myself.  It just sounds easier and the humidty and temps fluxate where I live enough that something that is pretty stable sounds AWESOME!  I've tried pretty much everything and had the lest problem with plastic tubs and my snakes shed wonderfully in them.

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## Crazy4Herps

There's really nothing wrong with tanks; they're a pain in the butt, but, with the right setup and maintenance, can make excellent enclosures for snakes. Tubs are SO much easier for holding heat, humidity, cleaning, etc, they just look ugly.

Acrylic cages (AP, Boaphile, etc.) are the best way to go by far. They're great in terms of retaining heat/humidity, they're lightweight but sturdy, but also look realllllly nice and have good visibility while allowing a snake more privacy than a glass tank. I started out with glass tanks, found them too much of a hassle (especially with the dry climate here; our house is usually at 10% humidity), so I switched to tubs for a few years, then I discovered AP cages and I will never use anything else.  :Very Happy:

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## Raf702

Both are nice in my opinion. I personally went with tubs/plastic over glass tanks. Due to what I've read between using either one. They both have their pro's/con's, but at the end of the day it's just personal preference. And recently I've seen quality plastic/acrylic enclosures that look fairly decent. I even have my eye on this one brand of acrylic/plastic enclosures for a good price. And most likely will be sticking to them when I purchase more BP's in the future. Tanks alone look very nice, and I've seen amazing decorated ones and setups. But I still like the whole tub/plastics better, just my opinion.  :Smile:

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## kitedemon

Interesting topic I use a rack, an upright tank, a sideways tank, a vision and sly enclosures as well as a custom enclosure.

I don't feel one has a clear advantage over the others each has pros and cons.

The rack is harder to exactly control temps with the top slot is often warmer than the middle and bottom cooler than the middle. In a large system horizontal control is sometimes used over vertical control but on a small scale it simply isn't practical. Racks are less efficient heat wise they loose heat quickly. The time saving personally I don't notice really it is faster (about twice) to clean but I do a full wash twice as much that upper surface is a killer. They are very space efficient however there is likely nothing can beat them for that. doesn't look very nice.

The upright tank requires more tinkering to get humidly right and they also loose heat quickly.  If you move the tank much (I don't at all) it is a disaster. Once figured out it isn't a big deal I don't need to mist much anymore especially as it isn't 8% inside any longer (stupid rads). They require mods to get right the screened lid just isn't viable at least where I live. They do look good and generally a true gradient can be made rather than a hot spot/ cool spot with abrupt changes. Cheap too free often. Looks good.

Sideways tank needs construction but solves most of the tank issues and acts like an enclosure. The lid cost offsets the tank price. But still less cash than a purpose built plastic enclosure. Easily lockable, keeps kids out and snakes in. Looks better.

Purpose built enclosures hold temps well (at least mine do) and humidity well (the vision isn't stellar for than my Sly is better but harder to clean...) The cleaning is a bit harder than a upright tank bit still not hard. Easily lockable protects from the curious visitors and escapes. Expensive to buy and ship but cheaper to heat than my rack. Looks better as well. 

 anatess solution is quite elegant it looks to work very well solving most of the tub drawbacks. I am guessing it would lose heat quickly. 

The custom enclosure hold humidly well and heat in my case really really well. It drops 2 degrees an hour. (sorry quite proud of that I am...  :Very Happy:  ) It is ok to clean as far as that goes I don't think any stand up as being way easier to clean than any other I find them all about the same. Lockable, good to look at. Lots of work and costly materials in my case. 

I guess what I am saying is that every location is different and that a diligent keeper will have healthy snakes and a perfect enclosure. I don't believe any method is easier than any other they all have issues and problems to over come. There is no easy this makes it perfect, it is just a matter a balancing the situation and making it work.

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## SpottedBOA

Here is a question on tubs how do you give the snake heat without melting the tubs. I assume there is no basking light.

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## youbeyouibei

> Here is a question on tubs how do you give the snake heat without melting the tubs. I assume there is no basking light.


Flexwatt heat tape. You can get it from Big Apple Herp (www.bigappleherp.com) or Reptile Basics Inc. (www.reptilebasics.com). I've purchased that product as well as other from both retailers and have been happy with both. 

I do have to say that RBI is AWESOME in setting up the connections/custom sizing the tape to a specified order and then shipping it assembled as far as the connections being wired up and all. All it takes then is installing it on the racks under the tubs. If you do a query search of the forum topics you'll find a ton of info on setting up a rack and installing Flexwatt tape and whatnot.

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## SpottedBOA

So yeah, what works for you, doesn't necessarily work for everybody else.

Here's my tub:


And here's my tank:



 I love your tub also.  I am actually spottedBoa's wife.  We are looking into getting a couple of ball pythons, and just cleared out our 75 gallon aquarium to put a pair in.  However the more and more we read the more it appears to be a bad idea.  The tubs seem by far the easiest solution but the part that excites me is watching them.  That is what I enjoyed about the fish tank.  Don't get me wrong I am excited about the rest of it too, I just enjoy sitting in the dark and watching them go about climbing and such.  Your Tub is a beautiful solution to that.   How did you do that?  How do you lock it and heat it?  

Also we were planing on keeping the larges part of the Glass lid on the top with the reptile top over it to help keep humidity in.  Is the other reason plastic is better than glass is the insulation?  I was going to put black around 3 of the sides and I was considering getting some insulation sheeting from home depot and layering it between the black paper so it is pretty and insulated for heat.  Would that solve any of the problems?  

What is the best way for a newbie to get a rack system?

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## snakesRkewl

So you say your getting a *pair of set ups* for your pair of ball pythons your getting  :Wink:

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## lisafoster2510

I don't have alot of experience but I think the tubs look ugly. If I were to ever get tubs I would at least put a plexi glass. BP may hide all the time but in they are not surrounded by opaque wall. I don't think it can be ignored that an animal with site needs some visual stimulation. To me putting a pet in a newspaper lined plastic tub with a water bowl and two hides is more like storing them. I do like the custom made plastic and acrylic enclosures thos I would display in my house not plastic sweater boxes.

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## kitedemon

lisafoster2510

The thing to remember is that there are a lot of breeders professional and hobby and that space is a huge issue, Tubs are super efficient space wise. I have both tubs in a rack and displays enclosures I actually rotate the animals from the rack to enclosure and enclosure to rack. I do find that the rack does feel a bit like storage at times but the animals can be well cared for in any system, it is the keeper whom makes the difference. My biggest complaint with the tub/tank/custom enclosure debate is that tubs are toated as being a solution for all the troubles, which simply isn't true. One set of problems are traded for another. Tubs have no thermal mass and heat and cool very very quickly and as a result cost more and require much more careful controls over heating.

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## AkHerps

Yeah I have my 2 snakes in tubs right now, and while they are kind of ugly, my snakes aren't ignored or stored.  I check on them daily, and never forget to feed them.  I am back and forth between tubs and tanks as tanks are easier to heat because you can use bulbs to help heat the air and use moss or a wetter substrate for humidity, and tubs seem to be hard to heat if your room temps are cold and you can't really use bulbs with them or use a space heater...

So, I'm unsure...haha.

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## lisafoster2510

I meant to add that I understood why breeders choose this method. Just seems like if it is a pet being kept long term like that a habitat where you try and add some of the things they have in nature would make for a happier snakes.  With the substrate I have been using and adding some water to a small area in the corner and lightly misting 1x daily my humidity has been staying  50-60. Using tin foil and a heat light my temps stay fine. The light will go away once it warms up I live on the waterso twptowns over it is alot warmer than where I am.

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## lisafoster2510

I could never keep tubs warm where I live. I can't deal if the heat gets over 65 in the house.

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## yeroc1982

I vote tubs!! I made the switch about 6 months ago and all I gotta say is it's soo much easier to do everything. I built a nice rack to hold 5 cb70 tubs, they all hold humidity and all stay at the same temp controlled by a herpstat.

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## yeroc1982

> I don't have alot of experience but I think the tubs look ugly. If I were to ever get tubs I would at least put a plexi glass. BP may hide all the time but in they are not surrounded by opaque wall. I don't think it can be ignored that an animal with site needs some visual stimulation. To me putting a pet in a newspaper lined plastic tub with a water bowl and two hides is more like storing them. I do like the custom made plastic and acrylic enclosures thos I would display in my house not plastic sweater boxes.


So your telling me it's more normal for a python to be able to see out of a glass tank, with people walking by and whatever else goes on in house, as opposed to a tub that's probably darker most of the time and it having newspaper and fogged plastic walls? I'm thinking the snake is more comfortable being in a tub setup. Also u don't need to use newspaper for substrate in tubs, it's just the most cheapest way to go and cleanup is simple and fast.

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## mdfreak2

is asking 250 for a 5 shelf vision arboreal snake rack with 6 new tubs, heat, and Johnson controls thermostat. Tubs are about 14" wide x 16" tall x 24" deep 
too much just wondering if it would be a good pick up

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## corgigirl9

On the tanks vs tubs subject, I don't really have an opinion if you have just a few bps  _as long as_ the husbandry is good. When you get into several or more BPs, I'd say tubs is the way to go to keep cleaning easy.  As far as tubs being ugly, I'll share a pic of the racks in my snake room and you can decide for yourself, although I think they look fantastic. Also for me, any new addition gets to spend a few months in tanks in a separate room until their quarantine vacation is over and they get a highly prized rack space.  I'd like to add that husbandry or escapes has NOT been an issue with my rack set up and I was always under the impression BPS liked tight dark spaces to hide. Also, every day possible unless after feeding or in shed, my snakes get checked over, handled, and an opportunity for some new visual stimulation.
[IMG][/IMG]

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_satomi325_ (08-22-2011)

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## corgigirl9

Ps. I did not make the above racks although I did call them my rack set up.

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## kitedemon

> So your telling me it's more normal for a python to be able to see out of a glass tank, with people walking by and whatever else goes on in house, as opposed to a tub that's probably darker most of the time and it having newspaper and fogged plastic walls? I'm thinking the snake is more comfortable being in a tub setup. Also u don't need to use newspaper for substrate in tubs, it's just the most cheapest way to go and cleanup is simple and fast.


You are on thin ice here comfortable is a human emotional term, applying it to a snake is very iffy. Do my snakes eat regularly, thermoregulate and display relaxed normal behaviour, yes they do. Do the ones in a rack do this yes, so do the ones in a tank and custom enclosure, there are the accepted markers if the snake is secure in its surroundings, comfortable if you wish to misuse the term. I believe that there is ample evidence that a tank can easily produce health well adjusted snakes for long period of time. If fact I can say longer lived than in tubs, many times, the 3 longest lived Royal pythons (at least 47 years, the oldest) were kept in a display enclosures and certainly not in tubs. Perhaps in twenty something years this will be challenged but currently there is no records of long lived royals in tubs (yet anyway).

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## Redneck_Crow

I've had tanks and tubs.  I like the tanks because I see the snakes more, and I see them at night quite a bit being a long term evening/night shift worker.  But I notice that the snakes seem to do better in the tubs.  At least for me they shed much better and eat better.

When I buy a house, I'll probably have a few display cages simply because I like to look at snakes.  I'll be keeping the majority of my animals in tubs for the convenience.

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## Focal X

I didn't read the whole thread, but I've had both and nothing has pleased me more than front end enclosures.  They have held heat and humidity better than both.  The only disadvantage is feeding.

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## LonelyGhost

lol i like the fact that you can buy a clear 50 Quart tub for only $16 cuz Tanks are so much more expensive...


When my collection grows and i have more money and more than 2 snakes im actually gonna buy a whole rack system or 2... its also really cheap to make one yourself using shelving and tubs from like walmart etc...

You should look into do it yourself reptile rack projects

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## Egapal

> Now I know that there is a lot of controversy over the whole tanks vs tubs argument.  I have my snakes in tanks but I am seriously thinking about swtiching to tubs.  I struggle with humidity a lot and the measures I have to take to remedy that with tanks just seems be real pain in the butt.  My snakes do not have bad sheds or anything but the measures I go through to prevent this are very extreme.  I have to admit also that when it comes time to do a complete cleaning of the tanks, moving them is a real pain in the butt also.  I am trying to convince my boyfriend that tubs are the way to go but he just is not buying into it.  I really need to hear from you guys the pros and cons of tanks vs tubs.  Thank you for your time and your input.


Well I think that you are setting up a false dichotomy.  There are many more options and one big one that you have left out is molded plastic cages.  They keep humidity well and make for a nice display cage.  If you have a large collection price can certainly be an issue but if you have the cash its a great way to go.  http://www.reptilebasics.com/2x3x14-cage

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## Skiploder

> Well I think that you are setting up a false dichotomy.  There are many more options and one big one that you have left out is molded plastic cages.  They keep humidity well and make for a nice display cage.  If you have a large collection price can certainly be an issue but if you have the cash its a great way to go.  http://www.reptilebasics.com/2x3x14-cage


I don't think Rich is making cages anymore.

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## Aes_Sidhe

> I don't think Rich is making cages anymore.


yea I noticed that Reptile cage section disappeared from his Page... maybe is a temporary thing.. I gonna see him next month in White Plains will ask him what's going on...

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## DellaF

I started out using tanks and after reading about tubs I switched over. I like the tubs so much better. My snakes are doing well in them. Perfect sheds every time, eating well. I will say do the tubs look pretty NO! I'm hoping to switch them to a rack system soon. I have seen pictures of some peoples snake rooms on here that have rack systems and I think they look really nice. I'm not knocking tanks either because I have seen pictures of peoples tank setups on here also and they are nice as well. It's all in what you like.

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## Egapal

> I don't think Rich is making cages anymore.


I noticed that his link was down on the main page.  Regardless of whether this is a permanent thing or not, Rich isn't the only game in town.  There are a lot of good plastic enclosures that can in my opinion give you some of the benefits of tubs without sacrificing the view.

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_Redneck_Crow_ (06-04-2011)

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## Skiploder

> I noticed that his link was down on the main page.  Regardless of whether this is a permanent thing or not, Rich isn't the only game in town.  There are a lot of good plastic enclosures that can in my opinion give you some of the benefits of tubs without sacrificing the view.


I think it's permanent.

Rich was the only guy you didn't have to wade through 6 to 8 weeks of waiting and crappy customer service to get a good one piece cage.

I take that back - Barr's was/is in the same league.

Craigslist is wonderful for finding used plastic cages on the cheap.

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## kitedemon

Not that it pertains to the original post but I found that looking at the design of most enclosures like the RB linked that any small custom plastic manufacturer can build one the size and shape you want for not any more than buying one with the shipping inclusive. It is simply a matter of either designing one or providing the dimensions and photos of examples to the shop. Just other source over the build to order ones that we see on line.

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## isanta666

I wish i could use tubs but my room gets too cold in the winter and a is not sufficient to maintain proper temps.

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