# Site General > Pet Related Laws & Legislation >  I Attended the HR2811 Hearing on July 29th

## ColinWeaver

The gist of the results of the hearing were summed up nicely in another post:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=98004

but I wanted to add a few more comments on what I observed today.

Lamar Smith (R, Texas) read the proposed bill and commented that 12 people have been killed by large constrictors since 1980.  He DID NOT attribute all the deaths to Burmese pythons.
Mr. Smith also brought up the death of the two-year old in Florida a few weeks ago.

Thomas Rooney (R, Florida) read the amendment that added Burmese pythons and African Rock pythons instead of the entire genus python.

Some things Mr. Rooney said in his statement:
He discussed the Everglades restoration efforts.  His language accused the Burmese python of being positioned to single-handedly undo their efforts (and the billion dollars already spent).
He said the Burmese pythons has no natural predators in the Everglades and took time to mention the famous photo of a Burmese pythons split open after eating a large alligator.
He said there are an estimated 100,000 Burmese in the Everglades and that they are thriving.
He said that multiple thousands of Burmese pythons have been imported into the country over the past 3 years (he did not give a specific number).
He said the two main concerns regarding Burmese pythons are 1) the Florida Everglades and 2) public safety.  He also said that there is NO controversy about Burmese being a threat to public health and human safety.
He said that after waiting for US Fish & Wildlife for 3 years to provide scientific results that Congress can no longer stand by without taking action.
Said that banning the import of Burmese & African Rock pythons is "a piece of the solution".

At first there were not enough delegates present to take a vote on the proposed amendment but they scrambled to get enough in the room and took a simple Yay/Nay vote.  I did not hear a "Nay".  By my count there were 23 delegates in the room.

A few comments:
1.  After the hearing adjourned I overheard a staff member talking to Mr. Rooney.  She said that many of the "snake people" who had been calling in were very rude.  I heard Mr. Rooney to say, "I wish I had known that yesterday."
Being rude when calling in and talking to staff members DOES make it back to the delegates.  If you can't keep your cool and be professional it will serve the community better if you don't call at all.
2. I overheard two staff members talking about all the snake people who were calling in opposition of the bill.  She said (paraphrasing) "The must not have lives and are spending all their time sitting at their computers and calling."  I had to smile at that.
3.  My delegate (Randy Forbes) is on the Judiciary Committee and during a break I went to his office to talk to him.  He wasn't in but I was able to have a good talk with a staff member who was knowledgeable about HR2811.  We discussed Mr. Forbes' position.  He asked me mine.  I do not support the bill in its original or amended form.  I told him I wanted the bill to go before the committee with expert testimony.  He responded that his office was open to it but didn't know what could be done since both sides were already in agreement on the amendment (HSUS and USARK).

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## DutchHerp

I think large constrictors should be banned in Florida and Georgia, at least.

Later, Matt

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## Russ Lawson

> I think large constrictors should be banned in Florida and Georgia, at least.
> 
> Later, Matt


Are you serious? They are already hard enough to keep in Florida with the ROC laws. If people weren't keeping them illegally there wouldn't be incidents like the one with that girl. There is no scientific evidence that suggests a ban would have any affect on anything to do with the burmese pythons in the Everglades, let alone there is no scientific evidence that proves their existence in the Everglades is even a problem.

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## Russ Lawson

By the way Colin, thanks for going and thanks for letting us know how it went. The information you've provided has been a huge help to me personally over the last few days.

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## DutchHerp

> Are you serious?


You betcha.

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## West Coast Jungle

All I can say is this thing has to be worded to allow captive bred burms. Anything less will be a great loss and I dont have burms or probably ever will.

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Muze (07-30-2009)

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## strikerratt

> I think large constrictors should be banned in Florida and Georgia, at least.
> 
> Later, Matt


that's just Ignorance at it's best to say that i for one am sick of people Bashing big snake owners and now some of the reptile community is turning it's back on us.....  just remember this after the government bans our pets your pets will be next and not just reptiles but dog's cat's and small pets too

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## DutchHerp

> that's just Ignorance at it's best to say that i for one am sick of people Bashing big snake owners and now some of the reptile community is turning it's back on us.....  just remember this after the government bans our pets your pets will be next and not just reptiles but dog's cat's and small pets too


Oh, please, don't call me ignorant.  Remember, the situation in the Everglades is due to IGNORANT snake owners.

Just because I care more about the ecosystems of southern Florida that your "pets" in cages.

No, it won't solve the problem in the Everglades, but at least it will prevent new populations in different areas.  

I love seeing photos of DOR burmese pythons.  I love snakes, I want to become a biologist and study these animals for the rest of my life - just in case you're thinking I'm a sadist.  These animals are competing with NATIVE wildlife.  Sweet.

Later, Matt

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_Oroborous_ (07-30-2009)

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## Russ Lawson

> Oh, please, don't call me ignorant.  Remember, the situation in the Everglades is due to IGNORANT snake owners.
> 
> Just because I care more about the ecosystems of southern Florida that your "pets" in cages.
> 
> No, it won't solve the problem in the Everglades, but at least it will prevent new populations in different areas.  
> 
> I love seeing photos of DOR burmese pythons.  I love snakes, I want to become a biologist and study these animals for the rest of my life - just in case you're thinking I'm a sadist.  These animals are competing with NATIVE wildlife.  Sweet.
> 
> Later, Matt


Do yourself a favor and read this before making accusations like that.
http://vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/O...compressed.pdf

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## DutchHerp

> Do yourself a favor and read this before making accusations like that.
> http://vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/O...compressed.pdf


What's your point?  I think it's a good idea to ban these pythons in Florida.

If the Barkers are right, then imported hatchlings "escaped" into Florida... so stop the importation of hatchlings to Florida, and new populations can be prevented.

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## Skiploder

> that's just Ignorance at it's best to say that i for one am sick of people Bashing big snake owners and now some of the reptile community is turning it's back on us.....  just remember this after the government bans our pets your pets will be next and not just reptiles but dog's cat's and small pets too


I have re-read all the posts in this thread and can't see where anyone bashed big snakes.  

The government is in OUR hobby because people in this hobby have acted ignorantly, irresponsibly and arrogantly.

It seems that even USARK and PIJAC, the defenders of reptile hobbyist's rights, are realizing that idiots in this community have just about ruined it for the rest of us.

That's why you see them assisting in passing legislation in North Carolina, in Florida and other places.  

While I don't support all of the verbiage in some of legislation that USARK has helped to pass, I at least see the wisdom in their approach - show the government and the people that the reptile hobby is willing and able to show restraint and act responsibly - something that the former owners of those burms, varanids and iguanas in Florida did not do.

As for the _government_ banning our dogs and cats - where's your proof?  

100,000 burms in the Everglades?  Disgusting.  Instead of pouting about the bill we should all step back and think about how THIS hobby is assisting in the deterioration of an amazing ecosystem.

Reptile people calling in and being rude?  We urinate on the carpet and then whine and stomp our feet when someone slaps a diaper on us.  Pathetic.

USARK and HSUS agreeing to the amendment?  What do you make of that?

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_DutchHerp_ (07-30-2009)

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## Adam_Wysocki

Representative Wasserman Schultz from Florida was the only vote to oppose the amendment. Her position is that all pythons should be banned. If you live in her district, you might want to educate yourself about when she's up for re-election and decide what you'd like to do with that information.

It's also worth noting that Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) CEO Wayne Pacelle was present for the beginning of the hearing. He was accompanied by Michael Markarian who is the president of the HSUS Legislative Fund (the branch of the HSUS that lobbys in Congress) as well as other members of the HSUS executive staff. These are the leaders of the most powerful and wealthiest animals rights organization in the world. It is no coincidence that they were at the markup meeting today ... they want the reptile industry gone ... and they're willing to do it one species at a time if they have to (obviously). For whatever it's worth, Wayne Pacelle called people who own exotic animals (like pythons) "foolish" in his blog a couple weeks ago and declared that exotic animal owners have no idea how to properly take care of their pets.

Please join USARK ... please join PIJAC ... please donate to either or both organizations ... even if it's only $1 ... please do anything and everything that you reasonably can to protect your rights. Even if you don't keep burms or african rock pythons, your pet of choice will probably be on the chopping block sooner or later. Send a message NOW that we as animal owners won't stand for it ... ever!

-adam

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## DutchHerp

Skippie gets it  :Smile:

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## Skiploder

> Representative Wasserman Schultz from Florida was the only vote to oppose the amendment. Her position is that all pythons should be banned. If you live in her district, you might want to educate yourself about when she's up for re-election and decide what you'd like to do with that information.
> 
> It's also worth noting that Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) CEO Wayne Pacelle was present for the beginning of the hearing. He was accompanied by Michael Markarian who is the president of the HSUS Legislative Fund (the branch of the HSUS that lobbys in Congress) as well as other members of the HSUS executive staff. These are the leaders of the most powerful and wealthiest animals rights organization in the world. It is no coincidence that they were at the markup meeting today ... they want the reptile industry gone ... and they're willing to do it one species at a time if they have to (obviously). *For whatever it's worth, Wayne Pacelle called people who own exotic animals (like pythons) "foolish" in his blog a couple weeks ago and declared that exotic animal owners have no idea how to properly take care of their pets.*
> 
> Please join USARK ... please join PIJAC ... please donate to either or both organizations ... even if it's only $1 ... please do anything and everything that you reasonably can to protect your rights. Even if you don't keep burms or african rock pythons, your pet of choice will probably be on the chopping block sooner or later. Send a message NOW that we as animal owners won't stand for it ... ever!
> 
> -adam


I am not a fan of HSUS or that idiot Pacelle.  I read his blog entry and could not find where he said that exotic animal owners had no idea how to properly take care of their pets - or was that not in the blog?

I also thought that he states that it was foolish to keep lions, chimps and burmese pythons as pets.  For the record, I agree with 66% of that statement.

Going back to his statement (whether written or otherwise) regarding exotic animal owners not being able to properly care for their pets - even a blind pig gets an occasional acorn. 

There are alot of dedicated and excellent reptile keepers - there are also a fair amount of people who buy reptiles with no idea how to care for them.  We see it on the forums all the time - don't we?  Some are lucky enough to come here and get advice from some very patient people that puts them on the right track before they kill or sicken their animals, but an untold number do not.

While someone seeking a ball-python morph may not fit into that category, I've seen an awful lot of young, inexperienced people getting into retics, burms and anacondas.

So while Pacelle is a jacka$$, his statement could easily be amended to be essentially correct - MANY exotic animal owners have no idea how to properly take care of their pets.  

A couple of weeks ago it was debated here that the legislation passed in North Carolina was unfair and restrictive.  While parts of the wording could be open to interpretation with respect to enforcement, I could not - for the life of me - understand why a responsible snake owner would have issue with being required to properly cage, transport or transfer ownership of venomous or giant snakes.  I'd say we were just about split on support of the concept of the bill.  

How do you feel about people's efforts to thwart sensible legislation backed by people in THIS hobby?

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The Vampire Osiris (08-01-2009)

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## DutchHerp

One thing really bugs me... the "Reptile Nation" won't take responsiblity for what they've done.

Take the Barkers, for instance.

They stay there are no records of people releasing burmese pythons in the wild of Florida.  Like the bastard that does will report himself, right?

Then, they try to blame it on a) hurricanes blowing down zoos and b) imported babies - yay, affecting even MORE ecosystems! - escaping from airports.

C'mon, people.

These snakes were released by irresponsible buttholes of reptile owners.

They are competing with the native wildlife - which is already having a tough time with all the other thousands of imported species - to survive in THEIR NATIVE HABITAT.

But hey, according to the Barkers, it cannot be said they'll have a negative impact on the Everglades!

Can you people do simple math?  Burmese pythons eat food... food that native species would eat... add these two together, and you'll figure out in a short time - well, unless you're not very bright - that native species will have an even harder time finding food.

The burms are there to stay.  Banning pythons won't stop that.

It will, however, *prevent other burmese/african rock/whatever pythons from populating yet another area*.

Instead of saving our right to *keep these animals in cages*, the Reptile Nation should *fight for natural ecosystems and preserve them*.

Later, Matt

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## Adam_Wysocki

> I am not a fan of HSUS or that idiot Pacelle.  I read his blog entry and could not find where he said that exotic animal owners had no idea how to properly take care of their pets - or was that not in the blog?
> 
> I also thought that he states that it was foolish to keep lions, chimps and burmese pythons as pets.  For the record, I agree with 66% of that statement.
> 
> Going back to his statement (whether written or otherwise) regarding exotic animal owners not being able to properly care for their pets - even a blind pig gets an occasional acorn. 
> 
> There are alot of dedicated and excellent reptile keepers - there are also a fair amount of people who buy reptiles with no idea how to care for them.  We see it on the forums all the time - don't we?  Some are lucky enough to come here and get advice from some very patient people that puts them on the right track before they kill or sicken their animals, but an untold number do not.
> 
> While someone seeking a ball-python morph may not fit into that category, I've seen an awful lot of young, inexperienced people getting into retics, burms and anacondas.
> ...


Here is a blog post that I wrote about HSUS's position on exotic (aka non-native) animals as pets. http://nohr669.com/blog/?p=321

As far as your question goes, I feel that people have the right to question and/or criticize anything that makes them uncomfortable. I don't believe in taking anything at face value. By questioning, debating, even criticizing legislation and proposed legislation whether introduced by the anti-pet movement or by our pro-pet advocates, we can only move forward in a positive direction. Silence and blind acceptance are the precursors to the death of democracy.

-adam

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## Adam_Wysocki

> One thing really bugs me... the "Reptile Nation" won't take responsiblity for what they've done.
> 
> Take the Barkers, for instance.
> 
> They stay there are no records of people releasing burmese pythons in the wild of Florida.  Like the bastard that does will report himself, right?
> 
> Then, they try to blame it on a) hurricanes blowing down zoos and b) imported babies - yay, affecting even MORE ecosystems! - escaping from airports.
> 
> C'mon, people.
> ...


If you're so convinced that pet owners are responsible for burms in the everglades and that HR2811 will prevent them from "populating yet another area" ... I have one simple question for you.

Why is it that there only seems to be a problem with burmese pythons in Florida? 

Is there something special about Florida burmese owners that compels them to release their snakes into the environment and yet burmese python owners in the other 47 continental US states are able to restrain themselves? 

If this was just a simple problem of snakes being released by pet owners and other areas are able to support burmese pythons like you suggest, wouldn't the same problem seen in the Everglades exist in those other areas already? 

Florida is the only state with a feral population of burmese ... according to your statements, there should be other states with the same problem but there are none.

Personally, I don't see any definitive evidence one way or the other (hopefully I'm entitled to my own opinions), but I do find it hard to believe that Florida is the only state where burmese python owners let their animals go into the environment. I can't help but wonder why other states that supposedly can support wild populations of burms don't already have a problem?

-adam

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## asplundii

> I think large constrictors should be banned in Florida and Georgia, at least.


...




> Oh, please, don't call me ignorant.  Remember, the situation in the Everglades is due to IGNORANT snake owners.


Ummm... Let's see... The Everglades are in Florida and are some 500 miles or so from Georgia. And the climate in Georgia (even S. Georgia) is not amicable to Burms. And yet you are calling for their ban in Georgia.


Yep, I think ignorant about sums it up.




> Do yourself a favor and read this before making accusations like that.
> http://vpi.com/sites/vpi.com/files/O...compressed.pdf


That is a good one Russ. I also like this one:

Claims of potential expansion throughout the U.S. by invasive python species are contradicted by ecological niche models by Pyron et al.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=18698351

Plus, it was published in a peer reviewed journal. Give it a bit more credibility. (Not that I do not think the Barkers are credible, they are. But the population at large is hesitant to "believe" unless it is published in a real journal.)




> What's your point?  I think it's a good idea to ban these pythons in Florida.


His point is that you need to educate your self on the facts of the matter before running your mouth off. If you want to think it is okay to ban these animals in Florida and Georgia then you better have a good reason why and right now your "good" reason is nothing more than the propaganda that HSUS and Bill Nelson are spouting.




> If the Barkers are right, then imported hatchlings "escaped" into Florida...


Dear god are you serious?? An unforeseen and unpredictable act of nature is the most likely cause of the population in the 'Glades. Holding facilities, zoos, road side menageries and homes were destroyed by that act of nature and from some of these a few Burms were unfortunately released. There is no way of knowing if they were imported hatchlings or long term captives or 4th generation adults from captive breedings. 




> so stop the importation of hatchlings to Florida, and new populations can be prevented.


Because everyone knows that if another act of nature were to roll through Florida and obliterate homes and collections that someones captive bred animal would be totally incapable of breeding should it be inadvertently freed...




> If you're so convinced that pet owners are responsible for burms in the everglades and that HR2811 will prevent them from "populating yet another area" ... I have one simple question for you.
> 
> Why is it that there only seems to be a problem with burmese pythons in Florida?


Adam raises a good question but I have a (to me at least) better one. Where do you get off dictating what ought to be legal/illegal in someone elses state when you yourself knowing, willingly and publicly violate the laws of your own state?

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Muze (07-30-2009),_Russ Lawson_ (07-30-2009)

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## wolfy-hound

> They stay there are no records of people releasing burmese pythons in the wild of Florida.  Like the bastard that does will report himself, right?
> 
> Then, they try to blame it on a) hurricanes blowing down zoos and b) imported babies - yay, affecting even MORE ecosystems! - escaping from airports.
> 
> C'mon, people.
> 
> These snakes were released by irresponsible buttholes of reptile owners.
> 
> Later, Matt



You seriously believe that people too irresponsible to keep or give away the giant snake suddenly develop a NEED to drive all the way down to the Everglades to release them? REALLY? Suddenly there's this stream of burm owners all driving across the country to the Everglades at the TIP of florida, just to turn that snake loose? Or do you seriously believe that only people near the Everglades own burms?

Yes I think the burms in the everglades are a issue, but pet owners didn't release them there. You can look at time-lines of hurricanes and where they hit, and how much damage and when burmese started appearing.

Also you can detail how banning everyone else's pets will somehow make the burms in the Everglades disappear? If that's true, we should take away YOUR car, because it will make all the drunk drivers stop hitting people.

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_Alice_ (07-31-2009),_GregBennett_ (07-31-2009),Muze (07-30-2009),_sweety314_ (07-30-2009)

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## nixer

i highly suggest to everyone they start boycotting businesses that donate to the hsus and peta. ive done so quite some time ago.  and dont hesitate to ask your local petshops if they donate to them before purchasing items.  so far ive got one local petstore to stop all donations to hsus.

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_GregBennett_ (07-31-2009)

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## Skiploder

> Is there something special about Florida burmese owners that compels them to release their snakes into the environment and yet burmese python owners in the other 47 continental US states are able to restrain themselves? 
> 
> Florida is the only state with a feral population of burmese ... according to your statements, there should be other states with the same problem but there are none.
> 
> Personally, I don't see any definitive evidence one way or the other (hopefully I'm entitled to my own opinions), but I do find it hard to believe that Florida is the only state where burmese python owners let their animals go into the environment. I can't help but wonder why other states that *supposedly* can support wild populations of burms don't already have a problem?
> 
> -adam


"Supposedly" is the key word.  I think that the battle cry of the reptile nation has been that there is little chance of most other states being able to support a wild population.  

The Everglades (and Florida) in general has been able to support a wide variety of non-native species due to it's tropical climate.  Peacock bass, festae and other tropical fish are established as are varanids and iguanids.

Except for a few other southern states, where else would these animals have a chance of thriving?  According to the Reptile Nation - nowhere - and I agree.

It's a multi-faceted issue that deals with supposed threats to the environment and personal safety.  After going to few reptile shows and seeing what is being sold to whom, I am firmly of the belief that the sale and ownership of venomous snakes and large/potentially dangerous reptiles should be restricted.

As tot he threat to the environment, regardless of how Florida became populated non-native reptiles, it still illustrates how they can gain a toe-hold a thrive.  USARK is having to deal with a deck of cards with no aces - you can't explain away what's happened - non-reptile people don't want to hear it.

So they have to minimize the damage and save ball python and other boid owners by sacrificing some of the rights of the burm and afrock keepers.  I get it, I just wonder how long it will be before they aren't the voice of the Reptile Nation anymore.

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## Herp_Herp_hooray

Thanks Colin, great to know your on our side!!!  See you @ Hamburg!

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## Brewster320

> As for the _government_ banning our dogs and cats - where's your proof?


The government might not be pusing for it but organzations like PETA and HSUS are. Tey see it as a sort of animal slavery and people shouldn't be allowed to keep pets. If they just started with cats and dogs people would think there nuts. Wy do you think they supported HR669? They thought they'd start on the opposite side of the spectrum. They didn't realize that so many people would be against it tought so now tey are trying to start wit animals that are big and scarey, "monsterous alligator eating pytons". Then tey are going to push bills to ban other "dangerous animals". From there they are going to pus there way down te spectrum until tey reach cats and dogs and nobody and legally own any pet! Of course I seriously doubt tey would ever get that far but they will try. PETA and the HSUS are not what you think they are.

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_sweety314_ (07-30-2009)

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## dr del

Hi,

O.k - firstly this post contains *nothing but personal opinion*. I'm still allowed one so if anyone gets upset please target all missiles and barbs *at me alone.*




> One thing really bugs me... the "Reptile Nation" won't take responsiblity for what they've done.
> 
> Take the Barkers, for instance.
> 
> They stay there are no records of people releasing burmese pythons in the wild of Florida.  Like the bastard that does will report himself, right?
> 
> Then, they try to blame it on a) hurricanes blowing down zoos and b) imported babies - yay, affecting even MORE ecosystems! - escaping from airports.
> 
> C'mon, people. 
> ...


People would not have to "report themselves" for there to be a record - getting caught or even seen would do it. Heck, even third party gossip would likely be trumpeted from the rooftops in the current climate.

Now considering you are planning on studying these things I take it that means you can guestimate the intial numbers needed to create a population of 100,000+ within 20 years without any observed problems with genetic diversity?

Can you, even for a second, seriously believe that  it is less likely that hurricane damage in an area with import warehouses, zoos and breeders collections would release a large number of burmese pythons than the notion that the same number of individual keepers all spontaneously decided to drive to florida and release their snakes?

"C'mon" indeed.




> They are competing with the native wildlife - which is already having a tough time with all the other thousands of imported species - to survive in THEIR NATIVE HABITAT.
> 
> But hey, according to the Barkers, it cannot be said they'll have a negative impact on the Everglades!
> 
> Can you people do simple math?  Burmese pythons eat food... food that native species would eat... add these two together, and you'll figure out in a short time - well, unless you're not very bright - that native species will have an even harder time finding food.


Well, since I am apparently not very bright, can you explain why predators capable of eating an animal within the range eaten by a burmese throughout its life would be incapable of eating a baby or juvenile burmese? It is quite a large range of prey sizes when all is said and done and a baby burmese is hardly an invincible monster.

There are after all other reptiles of similar size that have been suffering predation in that area for some considerable time. Since this is an apparently exploding population it must logically be comprised of a higher amount of younger (therefore smaller ) examples than older mature animals - wouldn't that mean it is theoretically more likely that, numerically, burmese pythons are more of a food source than you are crediting?

And can you please stop insinuating that anyone who doesn't agree with you is not very bright or cannot do simple maths?

It is very annoying coming from someone plainly inhaling the fumes from the wrong end of his high horse.




> The burms are there to stay.  Banning pythons won't stop that.
> 
> It will, however, *prevent other burmese/african rock/whatever pythons from populating yet another area*.
> 
> Instead of saving our right to *keep these animals in cages*, the Reptile Nation should *fight for natural ecosystems and preserve them*.
> 
> Later, Matt


Which other area? Be specific if possible.

And if there are in fact 100,000+ animals already in situ then the number of animals that could be expected to be added by escapes or deliberate release by irresponsible keepers is statistically and practically utterly, *utterly* insignificant.

If the burms are here to stay then there is no pristine ecosystem that can be reverted to.

[RANT]
As a matter of fact there never was - ecosystems have been altered and shaped by mankinds actions since we planted the first crop. The everglades included - the billions they are spending are to try and revert it to a point in time they have chosen arbitrarily. 

To believe that any ecosystem can be isolated enough to be fully restored to a time before human intervention and preseved in a kind of stasis is the same kind of farcical, wooly minded miscomprehension of the natural world that fills the minds of the animal rights lunatics.

*Nothing* in nature is stable long term, there was no mythical Eden that we must strive to recreate and protect. If your plan and desire is to artificialy and arbitrarily create and maintain a false construct at least have the decency to admit it and refrain from denegrating people who do not share your desires.
[/RANT]

Once again, these are my views *not the views of BP.net*.


dr del

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## asplundii

> Once again, these are my views *not the views of BP.net*.


Well Dr. Del I can say that while the words typed my be your own the view is not yours exclusively because I, at least, agree with you. And I would guess more than a few others do as well

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## Muze

> Well Dr. Del I can say that while the words typed my be your own the view is not yours exclusively because I, at least, agree with you. And I would guess more than a few others do as well


Hear, hear!

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## Mendel's Balls

> ...
> 
> 
> Claims of potential expansion throughout the U.S. by invasive python species are contradicted by ecological niche models by Pyron et al.
> 
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=18698351
> 
> Plus, it was published in a peer reviewed journal. Give it a bit more credibility. (Not that I do not think the Barkers are credible, they are. But the population at large is hesitant to "believe" unless it is published in a real journal.)



The original USGS report  was severely flawed because it only looked at two climatic variables--mean temperature and mean precipitation.  This approach does not take into consideration the variability of local climate conditions--for example, the number of days with extreme low temperatures.

The paper on you cite above, on the other hand, considers 19 climatic variables and gives us a more accurate model of reality.  

From that paper's discussion:

"Figure 3 of Rodda et al. [2] illustrates the prediction for the Burmese python in its current native range, and includes vast areas where the python has never been recorded in modern times, including Afghanistan, Borneo and the Arabian peninsula. The fact that their model makes such inaccurate predictions of the current distribution in the native range of this species questions the use of their model in identifying potential areas of future invasion. Modeling the ecological niche of organisms solely as a function of mean temperature and precipitation omits the critical interactions between these variables that define the fundamental and realized niche which organisms inhabit [12], [13]. If species were able to expand into environments simply based on mean precipitation and temperature conditions similar to those in their native range, the continental United States should be overrun by the northward expansion of subtropical species such as the Boa Constrictor, found only 145 km south of the Texas border.

We do not intend to downplay the critical problems that invasive wildlife pose for native ecosystems, or the possible impact that global climate change may have on the environment. The establishment of the Burmese python in the Everglades poses a serious risk to the balance of the park's ecosystem. *However, the results from the ecological niche modeling suggest that the possibility for the expansion of the species into the rest of the United States is vastly overstated, and citizens throughout most of North America should have no fear of giant snakes invading their neighborhoods. Based on our results, the methods and predictions of Rodda et al. [2] seem particularly imprecise and do not appear to represent an accurate picture of the threat posed by the Burmese pythons. The alarmist claims made by the USGS could potentially hamper scientific discourse and inquiry into the problem, especially with regard to policy-making.* Here, we have demonstrated that the suitable niche for the Burmese Python in the United States is minimal, based on available data regarding the current distribution of the snakes. Additionally, global warming is projected to have a negative effect on the species' continued survival. Climate change models indicate that the effects of global warming will result in a drastic decrease in the suitable habitat for the Burmese python, both in the United States and its native range. These serious problems do not benefit from any potential exaggeration of possible threats to the public and the legislature."

Here's the picture of the potential US range of the Burmese python their model predicts from global warming.

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## dkwalton

My personal opinion is that the truth lies somewhere between. The snakes may have gotten to the everglades from hurricaine damage and from idiots letting their snakes go. I live in Missouri and we just found out a nearbly man-made recreational lake has two large alligators alligators swimming around that they are trying to catch. I know how easy it is to buy a baby alligator online. Surely someone bought one and later realized they couldn't handle it...and let it go. If I was irresponsible enough to do something like that I would think I would still be smart enough to be sneaky about letting the alligators go. You can stop the car by the lake at night, somewhere out of the way with no other people...it would be a cinch. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to pull over on a busy road in broad daylight and drop-kick a 20-foot snake out of their trunk. 

Maybe the hurricaine contributed a little or a lot of the snakes...but I know there are a lot of irresponsible pet owners that just let them go. 

I have little kids and I don't want my neighbors owning potentially lethal animals  (whether they are lions, bears or burms) IF they don't know how to keep them. I think a workable law would allow licensed keepers to keep the animal if they passed regular inspections looking at their cage setup...

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## Clear

Each time there is a ban, its not just a ban, its a freedom being taken away from you. Give me Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

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## DutchHerp

You guys are probably going to view this as a "*****ing out" post...

I have an opinion, and I have my own arguments to support that.  

I have many, many paragraphs to attend if I indeed do want to defend myself... and then it'll start all over again.

Like me or dislike me, I couldn't care less.

The pet trade - whether the animals are in zoos or imported or kept in other cages - is responsible for the burmese problem.

Whether it's a hurricane or not, the burmese pythons "escaped" because they were already in captivity in Florida.

The Reptile Nation can take responsibility, or not...

Later, Matt

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## wolfy-hound

Well you ARE entitled to your opinion.  But according to your reasoning, the HR669 proposal was correct,since 90% of animals could live for at least a short period of time outside.

So to prevent any of the other 'exotics' from escaping, the pet trade shoudl cease to exist right now.  No birds, because most can survive in south florida and other more warm areas.  Since rats can survive nearly everywhere, most of the rodent pets probably could(or fake it good enough to pass the nonscientific tests), cats and dogs definitely out, rabbits definitely out, etc.

Just because burms are kept in the pet trade, doesn't mean that the people resonsibily keeping thier burms are at fault for the everglades burms.

Plus, I'd like to see even one piece of difinitive proof of a burmese in the everglades being a escaped(or loosed) pet.  A microchip(required in florida for the past couple years), or even a burn scar from a heat rock or lamp.
Anything?

Because if you will accept the idea that all the burms are escaped pets, without any proof, then I could say  my Congressman came to my house and stole my lizard.  Proof? I don't need proof.  After all, ya'll are passing a law without any proof.  Why should I have to have to produce any?

Drunk drivers killed a large number of people yesterday.  Do you drive a car? You're at fault.  Pony up the money and time in jail.  By the way, we're not going to let you drive ever again, because Joe Trash just killed Little Suzie after downing a gallon of booze and running her over.  What? He had a car, and a car caused the death.  You have a car, so you're at fault too.

Same logic.

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## dkwalton

I am all for personal property rights and the "pursuit of hapiness" as mentioned earlier...unless the pursuit impinges on someone else. Out of curiosity...if any limitation on owning, selling or importing burms is not the answer then what is?

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## Adam_Wysocki

> Whether it's a hurricane or not, the burmese pythons "escaped" because they were already in captivity in Florida.


That is your justification for punishing responsible burmese python owners in Nebraska, Oregon, and Vermont (as well as all over the country)? Some of whom have never even been to Florida? All of whom keep their animals responsibly and safely. Many of whom have had some of those animals for decades?

The only answer is to take it all away?

I'm sorry, I just can't accept that. This is the United States of America ... there are tons of brilliant people here ... the absolute best we can do for the good people that will be hurt the most by HR 2811 is say "too bad for you about those burms in the glades"?

No matter who or what started the problem, these aren't nuclear weapons we're talking about ... they're pets. They're animals that people care about ... animals that people have raised and loved ... animals that people have bonded with.

How is it ever OK for a government to take that away from it's citizens?

There has to be a better way.

-adam

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## DutchHerp

> That is your justification for punishing responsible burmese python owners in Nebraska, Oregon, and Vermont (as well as all over the country)? Some of whom have never even been to Florida? All of whom keep their animals responsibly and safely. Many of whom have had some of those animals for decades?
> 
> The only answer is to take it all away?
> 
> I'm sorry, I just can't accept that. This is the United States of America ... there are tons of brilliant people here ... the absolute best we can do for the good people that will be hurt the most by HR 2811 is say "too bad for you about those burms in the glades"?
> 
> No matter who or what started the problem, these aren't nuclear weapons we're talking about ... they're pets. They're animals that people care about ... animals that people have raised and loved ... animals that people have bonded with.
> 
> How is it ever OK for a government to take that away from it's citizens?
> ...


Adam, please, read my first post... I want them banned in Florida (and maybe Georgia)... I completely agree with it being dumb in any other states apart from maybe Louisiana and TX, although they get freezing temperatures.

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## Adam_Wysocki

> I am all for personal property rights and the "pursuit of hapiness" as mentioned earlier...unless the pursuit impinges on someone else. Out of curiosity...if any limitation on owning, selling or importing burms is not the answer then what is?


I think Florida is on the right track with micro chipping, secure enclosures, and licensing ... all of which prevent impulse buying that could result in irresponsible releases and allow responsible owners to continue doing what they've always done.

I think that the other side to that coin is serious scientific surveys of the burmese pythons in the Everglades (I've heard numbers everywhere from 10,000 - 250,000 ... they have to be just guessing at this point) ... trap programs ... and grant programs for open admission, licensed, giant snake rescues. 

In my opinion, each state should be able to determine what is best for it's own citizens and the ecosystems within that particular state. 

-adam

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_Denial_ (07-31-2009),_jsmorphs2_ (07-30-2009),_Mendel's Balls_ (07-30-2009)

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## Muze

> Adam, please, read my first post... I want them banned in Florida (and maybe Georgia)... I completely agree with it being dumb in any other states apart from maybe Louisiana and TX, although they get freezing temperatures.


So I suppose the logic is that if the snakes are kept in a climate that is uninhabitable should they escape, then it is ok to own them in that specific region.  Am I correct?  However, if this is indeed the logic, then we should ban all non-native species that would be able to thrive in a particular environment (reptiles from tropical areas, for example, should be banned in Florida) if/when they escape.

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## DutchHerp

> So I suppose the logic is that if the snakes are kept in a climate that is uninhabitable should they escape, then it is ok to own them in that specific region.  Am I correct?


Correct




> However, if this is indeed the logic, then we should ban all non-native species that would be able to thrive in a particular environment (reptiles from tropical areas, for example, should be banned in Florida) if/when they escape.


Ideally, yes.

Later, Matt

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## Brewster320

> Correct
> 
> 
> 
> Ideally, yes.
> 
> Later, Matt


Ok, then you have to give away your ball pythons and your carpet python. There is a slight chance they could thrive down there in Texas. So you have to give them to people like me who live up where its nice and cold. And I'll send you my firebelly toad, its nice, cool, and humid up here so if he escaped he could cause huge problems, if he escaped in Texas he'd surely dry up so you can have him.

Seriously?!

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## DutchHerp

Texas got freezing temperatures this year; snow actually.  If there was viable scientific evidence my pythons could cause ecological problems, then yes, I would relocate them.

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## Mendel's Balls

> Texas got freezing temperatures this year; snow actually.  If there was viable scientific evidence my pythons could cause ecological problems, then yes, I would relocate them.



Where is the scientific evidence that points to the Florida Burmese populations causing a net ecological and/or economic loss?  Point me to that peer-reviewed scientific paper please.

If you cant produce one, your assuming guilt before innocence.....seems like that rule then should apply to you and your animals as well then.

Furthermore, as Adam said this is a state issue...why are the feds pushing this?  Florida Wildlife officials were are dealing with the issue.

There is no evidence that populations exist in any other states or will exist in any other southern states with global climate changes models.

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_Alice_ (07-31-2009),_Brewster320_ (07-30-2009),Muze (07-30-2009)

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## rabernet

> Adam, please, read my first post... I want them banned in Florida (and maybe Georgia)... I completely agree with it being dumb in any other states apart from maybe Louisiana and TX, although they get freezing temperatures.


Georgia gets freezing temperatures as well. I live here, trust me - it gets damned cold here in the winter - we even get snow here - imagine that!

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## dkwalton

> I think Florida is on the right track with micro chipping, secure enclosures, and licensing ... all of which prevent impulse buying that could result in irresponsible releases and allow responsible owners to continue doing what they've always done.
> 
> I think that the other side to that coin is serious scientific surveys of the burmese pythons in the Everglades (I've heard numbers everywhere from 10,000 - 250,000 ... they have to be just guessing at this point) ... trap programs ... and grant programs for open admission, licensed, giant snake rescues. 
> 
> In my opinion, each state should be able to determine what is best for it's own citizens and the ecosystems within that particular state. 
> 
> -adam



Good points...

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## rabernet

> Where is the scientific evidence that points to the Florida Burmese populations causing a net ecological and/or economic loss?  Point me to that peer-reviewed scientific paper please.


He can't - but isn't it ironic that he requires scientific proof to give up HIS animals?  :Confused:

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_Jyson_ (07-30-2009),_Kara_ (07-31-2009),_Mendel's Balls_ (07-30-2009),_waltah!_ (07-30-2009)

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## Skiploder

> The government might not be pusing for it but organzations like PETA and HSUS are. Tey see it as a sort of animal slavery and people shouldn't be allowed to keep pets. If they just started with cats and dogs people would think there nuts. Wy do you think they supported HR669? They thought they'd start on the opposite side of the spectrum. They didn't realize that so many people would be against it tought so now tey are trying to start wit animals that are big and scarey, "monsterous alligator eating pytons". Then tey are going to push bills to ban other "dangerous animals". From there they are going to pus there way down te spectrum until tey reach cats and dogs and nobody and legally own any pet! Of course I seriously doubt tey would ever get that far but they will try. PETA and the HSUS are not what you think they are.


How do you know what I think they are?

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## wolfy-hound

I got freezing temps several times this year here in Florida too, but you want it illegil in the whole state. So since YOUR animals could live in parts of texas, you should immediately relocate them.

It's hypocritical to declare that Florida/Georgia should be penelized, when your own state gets similar temps.

And again, why is it ok to punish all the law-abiding owners that haven't ever had any issues?

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_Alice_ (07-31-2009),_Jyson_ (07-30-2009),_Russ Lawson_ (07-30-2009),_sweety314_ (07-30-2009)

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## Jyson

> Georgia gets freezing temperatures as well. I live here, trust me - it gets damned cold here in the winter - we even get snow here - imagine that!


Same here for North Central Fl., past 3-4 years during winter temps got as low as 20 F, once it even dropped to 18!

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## DutchHerp

The paper that was linked written by the Barkers is biased and non-scientific.

I don't have a paper to link, I'm sorry.

But whatever, I have my opinion and you have yours.

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## sweety314

First off, Colin: Thx for going out of your way to attend the hearing meeting and letting the rest of us know how things went.

Second, Thx to Adam for continuing re: HR669.

Now.....I live in podunk Oregon....Waaay the He** away from Florida. Am I pushing to kill HR 669 and HR2811 stuff?  HE** yeah!!!!!! Why? B/c once it's banned in FL, then it (eventually) works it's way to HERE, and right now, should HR669 pass, 28 of my 35 will become illegal. And 14 of those are RESCUES/ REHOMED. It's claimed they'll be grandfathered in, but once one dies, I won't be allowed to replace it. Btwn the militant animal rights groups (NOT animal WELFARE groups) and Big Brother don't believe everything you're told.

I've purchased animals with the intent to breed for the recessives that I can't afford to buy. I plan to sell the hets for pets. This all becomes a waste of time & money should these resolutions become law. So much for my trying to become not-so-pinched financially (after being laid-off by a Fortune 500 company 10 months ago).

I specifically started doing rescue since there are ppl who didn't know or didn't care enough to take PROPER care of the animals. 4 balls from one woman, just b/c she wanted more "interaction, like my beardies who come when I call".  :Confused:  WTF?!? Okay, so now I have 3.1 balls who were (additonally) in a 72* room with no hotspots and stopped eating. I ended up with 1.1 yellow annies, (which are actually 0.2) B/C THEY BITE! Well, duuuuuuuuuuuuh! He had them 2-3 months, they weren't eating (again too cold in the backyard with only one heat lamp.) Obviously the _pillock_ didn't know the care and husbandry. At least w/my rehoming them, it didn't take them all winter to get RIs and eventually die. Even should it NOT snow in the W. Valley (and it does), it gets wicked cold and is always wet w/the rain and wind during the winter. It would have been only a matter of time before these two annies perished.

Do U actually think that should HR669 and HR2811 were to pass, it would keep doofus ppl like this from owning a giant????? Or any snake at all????NOPE.....they'll just get them from someone who isn't being "policed" or honest. Ever hear of Prohibition and Speakeasies????? Or maybe banned weapons that ppl can buy on the black market? That will happen with the giants too. Some ppl are actually of the mentality that banned only means that they HAVE TO HAVE IT, that much more.

Yes, due to idiots and God's hurricanes, there is a problem in the Glades. (At least MAN has finally come to realize that he has to stop draining the Glades for land and is trying to "restore" and correct past mistakes.) And maybe for certain areas of FL and TX (NC maybe?) microchipping and licensing is necessary to help mitigate these issues. But DON'T punish ME!! b/c of this......and a FEDERAL law (i.e. HR669 or HR2811 and other such ilk/garbage) is doing exactly that.

Another thought in this rant....so I microchip my two annies. I sell them, change and leave the record updates to the buyer. He doesn't but sells them and they get flipped and turned loose.....< I > as last recorded owner gets punished??? I don't think so, but I also wouldn't be able to fight the fines or jail time financially. So will the actual criminals get punished? No, they'll come for me. My only saving grace will be if I keep forever the record/proof that I sold to Joe Shmoe and maybe HE was the one that turned them loose/let them escape. And U and I as tax payers will be paying for aaaaall this additional bureaucratic BS and paper-pushing.

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Yodaaz (07-30-2009)

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## DutchHerp

I actually want to reword what I said earlier.

In an ideal world, people would never have taken animals from the wild to put in cages, to keep as pets, etc.  Hence, I said that ideally all animals that could cause problems would be banned.

I'm not saying that's a solution.  Banning pythons is definitely not the ideal solution, but if it's been a ban or no ban, I choose ban. 

I like the microchipping idea, but then again, an escaped python could already cause problems before capture.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want a ban on pythons, even though it seems like I do.

Between the two choices right now though, I choose ban.

Later, Matt

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## qiksilver

I think if prices were raised, some of this would be avoided.  Raise the prices of large pythons enough that they're not 'expendable' this way every jerk who thinks they're tough won't buy one, and the people actually interested will put down the money.  Make it a large python tax or something.  

Things like this happen when people think that just because it's cheap it's expendable, and they can do as they please with it.

There's no way to make your average schmoe more responsible, so it's a bit of a catch 22.  I see both sides of this argument making sense, but come on people, legislation is a slippery slope, and I don't think vilifying the animals is the way to go.  If only there was a way to make keepers more responsible... but there isn't.  And so around we go until everyone is arguing with everyone.

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_Denial_ (07-31-2009)

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## Mendel's Balls

> I actually want to reword what I said earlier.
> 
> In an ideal world, people would never have taken animals from the wild to put in cages, to keep as pets, etc.  Hence, I said that ideally all animals that could cause problems would be banned.
> 
> I'm not saying that's a solution.  Banning pythons is definitely not the ideal solution, but if it's been a ban or no ban, I choose ban. 
> 
> I like the microchipping idea, but then again, an escaped python could already cause problems before capture.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't want a ban on pythons, even though it seems like I do.
> ...


 :Confused:  Seriously, I dont think anyone can even follow you anymore..... :Weirdface:

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_sweety314_ (07-30-2009)

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## DutchHerp

> Seriously, I dont think anyone can even follow you anymore.....


Tight, I don't care.

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## daniel1983

Personally, I think there are too many 'opinions' and not enough facts. Opinions are dictating this legislation.

It is like a battle of opinions...

...someone needs to organize an effort to actually study the conditions these animals can actually endure. Then produce legislation based on fact.

As of this moment, the only thing we know is that burms can survive in south Florida. I don't think that is enough support to ban them nationwide.

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## DutchHerp

> Personally, I think there are too many 'opinions' and not enough facts. Opinions are dictating this legislation.
> 
> It is like a battle of opinions...
> 
> ...someone needs to organize an effort to actually study how the conditions these animals can actually endure.


The Aiken study  :ROFL:

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## Skiploder

> I think if prices were raised, some of this would be avoided.  Raise the prices of large pythons enough that they're not 'expendable' this way every jerk who thinks they're tough won't buy one, and the people actually interested will put down the money.  Make it a large python tax or something.


Interesting.  I think it would work but many in the Reptile Nation would not accept it.

How do I know?  Well, it looks like USARK and PIJAC are seeing the writing on the wall and coming to the table to assist in penning laws that will satisfy the general public but preserve the majority of our rights.

..........and while people are still flying the USARK banners on their sigs, they are apparently not really paying attention to what USARK is doing.

Which, for the record, I support.  This arguing back and forth about whether or not there is a problem when there IS a problem is a waste of time.  We have an image problem and we have a discipline problem in this hobby.  USARK is doing something very proactive - I just wonder when people will realize that this is not a take no prisoners war - it's a war of taking the bullets out of your opponents gun before he can shoot you with them - or in the case of Florida - performing a surgical amputation of a foot before you lose the whole leg.

Except for the fuzziness about enforcement, the NC bill was a step in the right direction.  Add in a large python tax and we may actually be able to keep dangerous animals out of the hands of  people who can't properly care for them.




> There's no way to make your average schmoe more responsible, so it's a bit of a catch 22.  I see both sides of this argument making sense, but come on people, legislation is a slippery slope, and I don't think vilifying the animals is the way to go.  If only there was a way to make keepers more responsible... but there isn't.  And so around we go until everyone is arguing with everyone.


We're already halfway down that slippery slope.  USARK has helped pen  legislation in NC and is negotiating with HSUS and Nelson in Florida.  

Pay attention folks because this will happen in more and more places.  This is the price we all pay for a few bad apples.  State by state, USARK and PIJAC will be forced to sit down and help craft legislation that does it's best to cut the baby down the middle.

Are burms on the loose in Florida because of a hurricane or because of irresponsible owners?  Doesn't matter.  You can slap each other in the face with insults and throw studies back in forth until everyone is looking for "peer-reviewed" papers and climate change models.  While you're doing that, the bills are piling up and new rules are being set.

So take the time to give PIJAC and USARK some feedback on the work they are doing.  Read the bills, and understand that your fight now may not really be a fight, but an attempt to make the laws coming down the pipe easier to bear.

I've taken the time to give feedback to USARK about the work they are doing.  How about some of you take a break from piling on Matt and do the same?

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_Denial_ (07-31-2009),_DutchHerp_ (07-31-2009)

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## GregBennett

> Tight, I don't care.


You sound like one of those nut job PETA or Trout Unlimited People.

<RANT ON>

If the founding fathers of this country could see what it has become today, they would roll over in their graves.

I personally have had enough of our good for just about nothing government telling me what I can and can't do. It seems like today the only purpose of the government is to take our rights away and waste our money feverishly.

<RANT OFF>

A few quotes to think about people.

- They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
- He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.
- He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
- People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.
- If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both.
- Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
- He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.
- Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.
- Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.

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_sweety314_ (07-31-2009)

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## DutchHerp

> You sound like one of those nut job PETA or Trout Unlimited People.


 :ROFL: 

I am a Person Enjoying Tasty Animals, indeed!  Had some lovely Alaskan king crab just now, quite delicious in the harbor of Seward.

Later, Matt

----------


## asplundii

> Texas got freezing temperatures this year; snow actually.  If there was viable scientific evidence my pythons could cause ecological problems, then yes, I would relocate them.


Obviously you do not know much about the environments that carpet pythons inhabit. Better do your research and then pack those babies up and ship them to someone else.




> Where is the scientific evidence that points to the Florida Burmese populations causing a net ecological and/or economic loss?  Point me to that peer-reviewed scientific paper please.


There is not one. We all know that. (Well all of us except him it seems...)




> He can't - but isn't it ironic that he requires scientific proof to give up HIS animals?


It is ironic. What I find more ironic is that the young lad here lives in Texas where road cruising is *illegal* and yet he actively practices the habit and posts pics on every forum he is on about it and then defends his actions when called out on it. And here he is telling all of us what ought to be illegal in other states...




> I got freezing temps several times this year here in Florida too, but you want it illegil in the whole state. So since YOUR animals could live in parts of texas, you should immediately relocate them.


Like I said above, he needs to learn a little bit more about the native habitats of the carpet python he keeps




> The paper that was linked written by the Barkers is biased and non-scientific.
> 
> I don't have a paper to link, I'm sorry.


Well I posted a link to a scientifically valid peer reviewed paper. You might want to read it and get yourself properly educated on the matter before you run your mouth off.




> But whatever, I have my opinion and you have yours.


Yes, we have educated opinions and you have propaganda-based ignorant opinions.




> I actually want to reword what I said earlier.
> 
> In an ideal world, people would never have taken animals from the wild to put in cages, to keep as pets, etc.  Hence, I said that ideally all animals that could cause problems would be banned.
> 
> I'm not saying that's a solution.  Banning pythons is definitely not the ideal solution, but if it's been a ban or no ban, I choose ban. 
> 
> I like the microchipping idea, but then again, an escaped python could already cause problems before capture.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't want a ban on pythons, even though it seems like I do.
> ...


Based on what you said there, then by your own words you ought not be keeping any pets. So, box them up and ship them out.




> Personally, I think there are too many 'opinions' and not enough facts. Opinions are dictating this legislation.
> 
> It is like a battle of opinions...


I agree but I would add that it is also a battle of emotions. Fear and scare tactics are big power in this fracas we find ourselves in.




> ...someone needs to organize an effort to actually study the conditions these animals can actually endure. Then produce legislation based on fact.


They are doing that up in the Carolinas right now.




> As of this moment, the only thing we know is that burms can survive in south Florida. I don't think that is enough support to ban them nationwide.


You are correct, it is not enough support to ban them. There is no justification for a ban, a ban is not going to fix the problem. What is needed is regulation. Something that works to keep impulse buying down and responsible, educated buying safe.

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## qiksilver

> How about some of you take a break from piling on Matt and do the same?


Er, I'm pretty sure I wasn't piling on anything, but alright.  I think it's too late to change any minds anywhere, in or out of our community, and I think that Matt brings up solid points on the protection of ecological niches... But that being said, it's not like those making the laws truly care about that.  Everyone is being so reactive to everything that there's no way we can all work together.  It's just too bad individuals can't take responsibility for their own actions (snake owners and politicians alike).  I find it a little ridiculous that no one gave a damn about the ecology of the everglades until they found a convenient scapegoat.

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## snakemastercanada

Here is a link to a bunch of quotes from those people that Dutchherp so idolizes so much . 
http://www.naiaonline.org/body/artic...ightsquote.htm

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## Skiploder

> Er, I'm pretty sure I wasn't piling on anything, but alright.  I think it's too late to change any minds anywhere, in or out of our community, and I think that Matt brings up solid points on the protection of ecological niches... But that being said, it's not like those making the laws truly care about that.  Everyone is being so reactive to everything that there's no way we can all work together.  It's just too bad individuals can't take responsibility for their own actions (snake owners and politicians alike).  I find it a little ridiculous that no one gave a damn about the ecology of the everglades until they found a convenient scapegoat.


I wasn't referring to you, Mike.

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## Skiploder

> Obviously you do not know much about the environments that carpet pythons inhabit. Better do your research and then pack those babies up and ship them to someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> There is not one. We all know that. (Well all of us except him it seems...)
> 
> 
> 
> It is ironic. What I find more ironic is that the young lad here lives in Texas where road cruising is *illegal* and yet he actively practices the habit and posts pics on every forum he is on about it and then defends his actions when called out on it. And here he is telling all of us what ought to be illegal in other states...
> ...


Congratulations.  You have just continued an argument that does nothing for this community.  Have you checked your state government site to see what bills may be coming down the pipe that will affect your hobby?  Don't rely on the USARK and PIJAC websites, in some cases they have been several months out in warning people about upcoming legislation.......

Enjoy your point-by-point debate with Dutchherp.  In the meantime, a sensationalist media, a gullible public, a reactionary political system and well-organized and funded machines like PETA and HSUS are nibbling away at your rights.  Let me give you all a pointer here:  they don't care about facts.  You can e-pontificate until your fingers fall off and counter every point they make..........people outside this hobby (in general) don't care - it doesn't affect them and they don't like reptiles.

As large as this hobby may seem, we are still on the fringe.  Joe Sixpack and his Suburban driving ex-prom queen wife don't care to be educated on the potential migratory routes of pythons in Florida and they sure as heck don't care about whether all those man-eating burms were released on purpose or on accident.  Most people support the HSUS - they save cuddly kittens and puppies with big mournful eyes - right?

At what point does the fact that USARK and PIJAC are now passing legislation and working on amendments to these bills clue you in to the fact that these laws are something that can't be argued away?

While USARK did an admirable job in writing law in NC, the provisions for enforcement that they helped pen should worry everyone here.  How many of you have given USARK and PIJAC feedback about the work they are doing?  How many people actually know what your defenders are doing?  How many of you know what legislation is coming down the pipe in your state that may affect your hobby?  How about neighboring states?

Don't you think addressing those things, or better yet educating yourself on these points, helps the cause more than debating each other point by point?

Let me clue some people in here - there are quite a few of us that have seen this coming for awhile.  This hobby has arrogantly assumed that we could keep whatever we want, anyway we want and in general, act irresponsibly with no consequences.  Well, the bill is now coming due.  USARK and PIJAC are having to deal with steaming pile of crap that WE made.  Some of the most vocal supporters of USARK and PIJAC are the same arrogant jerks who indiscriminately sold giants and hots to people who had no business owning them......it makes me sick.

We've had years to organize to self-regulate and we did nothing.  Now we have had to organize to save ourselves from the consequences of our actions.

While I don't keep giant pythons, I do keep rear-fanged colubrids, some of which have already made the banned lists in, for example, Connecticut.  It's a matter of time before legislation surfaces that will affect my ability to keep my beloved pets in my state.  I will work as diligently as possible to assist USARK and PIJAC in crafting legislation that may require other keepers to house, transport and account for their animals in a more responsible way.

More importantly, I continue to keep my eye on legislation occurring in other states and provide feedback to the defenders of my rights so that we have a future model for preventing what is now happening in Florida.

I am not gong to waste my time trying to educate a deaf public to the fact that my thelatornis or rhabdophis pose no threat to the them.  They don't care about delivery systems of venomous reptiles, they don't care about three-finger toxins - they've already made up their minds.  As Quiksilver stated - it's too late to change the minds of people.  We all have differing opinions on what should be done, but the reality is that the focus is now on dealing with, heading off and amending _legislation_.

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_bsd13_ (08-03-2009),_Denial_ (07-31-2009),_DutchHerp_ (07-31-2009),_GregBennett_ (07-31-2009),JLC (07-31-2009),_Mendel's Balls_ (07-31-2009)

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## asplundii

> Congratulations.  You have just continued an argument that does nothing for this community.


I fail to see how a divisive element within the community who obviously does not have all the facts has nothing to do with the community. If people in the community can make the same arguments as HSUS how does that have nothing to do to the community??

Also, it is all well and good you pointing your finger at me but I hope you realize that by doing that you are sitting right here with me continuing this "worthless" argument...




> Have you checked your state government site to see what bills may be coming down the pipe that will affect your hobby?  Don't rely on the USARK and PIJAC websites, in some cases they have been several months out in warning people about upcoming legislation.......


As best I can, yes. Though it is not a daily thing for me. AS it is, so much is prohibited here it is not hard to keep up with...




> Enjoy your point-by-point debate with Dutchherp.


This is my style of replying, it is how I think straight. If you search the forum for my posts you will see that I do it for debate or discussion or whatever. It is just my style, I do not care whether or not you like it.




> In the meantime, a sensationalist media, a gullible public, a reactionary political system and well-organized and funded machines like PETA and HSUS are nibbling away at your rights.


You will get no argument from me on that




> Let me give you all a pointer here:  they don't care about facts.  You can e-pontificate until your fingers fall off and counter every point they make..........people outside this hobby (in general) don't care - it doesn't affect them and they don't like reptiles.


It is not their ignorance of facts that bothers me. It is people within this hobby, like Dutch, who are willfully ignorant that bother me. There are valid, peer reviewed scientific articles that refute a number of his points and he willfully turns a blind eye to them. 




> As large as this hobby may seem, we are still on the fringe


Something I already knew




> Joe Sixpack and his Suburban driving ex-prom queen wife don't care to be educated on the potential migratory routes of pythons in Florida and they sure as heck don't care about whether all those man-eating burms were released on purpose or on accident.


Having done more than a few reptile presentations for schools I disagree to an extent. If you can pique the interest of Joe Sixpack and his wife then often times you can get them to listen and they really are interested in what you have to say. The problem is that for every one family you can reach that way there are 5000000000 more being reached by the media hype. The war of attrition...




> At what point does the fact that USARK and PIJAC are now passing legislation and working on amendments to these bills clue you in to the fact that these laws are something that can't be argued away?


You presume to know me. Never once have I said these bills are going to be argued away. I have felt and still feel that we have been playing a game of catch up for too damn long. 




> While USARK did an admirable job in writing law in NC, the provisions for enforcement that they helped pen should worry everyone here.  How many of you have given USARK and PIJAC feedback about the work they are doing?


Well I for one have emailed USARK with suggestions and recommendations numerous times. Both positive and negative feedback.




> Don't you think addressing those things, or better yet educating yourself on these points, helps the cause more than debating each other point by point?


Yeah, addressing those matters is important. However I do not think someone within the community, who has an obvious lack of understanding on the matter, spreading derisiveness is doing us one bloody bit of good either. HSUS, PETA, and the like probably love seeing us at each others throat, it makes their job so much easier.




> Let me clue some people in here - there are quite a few of us that have seen this coming for awhile.  This hobby has arrogantly assumed that we could keep whatever we want, anyway we want and in general, act irresponsibly with no consequences.  Well, the bill is now coming due.  USARK and PIJAC are having to deal with steaming pile of crap that WE made.  Some of the most vocal supporters of USARK and PIJAC are the same arrogant jerks who indiscriminately sold giants and hots to people who had no business owning them......it makes me sick.


Well I am sick to death of all these people who talk about how they saw this coming and use every opportunity to say that. Great, you saw it coming... What the heck were you doing about it back then other than seeing it coming? A Cassandra Complex does not do us any good. So you saw it coming. And yet you did nothing about it back when you saw it coming. You are just as guilty for this mess we are in as the rest of us so take that finger you are pointing at us and turn it right back on yourself.




> I am not gong to waste my time trying to educate a deaf public to the fact that my thelatornis or rhabdophis pose no threat to the them.


That is your choice. I still find that, on an individual level the public can be educated and turned to our side. However, when I see someone within the community being willfully ignorant I will step up. Like I said above, divisiveness within is more destructive than pressure from without.




> We all have differing opinions on what should be done, but the reality is that the focus is now on dealing with, heading off and amending _legislation_.


Actually, I think that amending legislation is just continuing to play the catch up game. We, as a community need to start _making_ the legislation. We have to start regulating ourselves because that is the surest way to keep others from deciding to step in and regulate us.

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Muze (07-31-2009)

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## Skiploder

So who is up-to-date on California AB112?

It was all the rage awhile ago, but fell off of the radar.  Despite the fine job that USARK does, they haven't update on it's progress in awhile.

Let me illustrate and example of how easily it is to have your attention diverted elsewhere with potentially disastrous results.

When AB1122 was introduced, the Reptile NAtion decried it as an attempt to put the kibosh on reptile shows.  Oh, it was cleverly concealed, but it was there.

I argued that I had read up on the bill's history and that while the wording was ambiguous, the intent of the bill was to ban the sale of animals on street corners - a very specific problem in some urban areas of northern and southern California.  

These animals are often smuggled in from Mexico and are in horrible condition.

NO NO NO screamed some people who had never even read the bill (but had gotten the latest USARK e-mail bulletin), this is a well-crafted and orchestrated attempt to shut down the reptile business.

Posts were put up all over the major forums, inciting people to write their legislators and to put a stop to this malevolent attempt to kill our hobby.

I actually called the office of the sponsor (Ted Lieu) and spoke to an aide.  She was astonished that people thought that Mr. Lieu was trying to shut down dog, bird, cat and reptile shows.

Had they received alot of feedback from the vaunted Reptile Nation?  No, not really.  They had heard from the Democracy of Dogs, the Confederacy of Cats and the Bird Consortium, heck, they even had heard from the Associated of Swap Meets and (I'm not making this up) a contingent of concerned citizens who run the coral frag swaps.  Oh - animal rescue groups also voiced their concerns - let's not forget them.

The Reptile Nation - well, a few call here and there, but nothing of note.  Do reptiles even have shows?  Yes, I said, we have expos.  Oh.......

So here we are, and like most bills, this one has gone through many amendments and iterations.  Mr. Lieu has refined his bill to reflect the concerns of groups that thought they would be devastated by this bill.

The latest amendment, from the July 7th senate hearing, now contains provisions that exempt:

a.  Cat shows
b.  Dog shows
c.  Bird shows
d.  Rescue groups
e.  Swap meets were removed from prohibited sale locations


The last paragraph of the amendment now reads:

_Amendments Since June 23 Hearing  

This bill has been amended since it was heard in this Committee on June 23rd in order to address some of the concerns raised.  Specifically, it makes clear that the prohibition on display is to display for sale and makes exceptions for the sale of fish or  shellfish off a boat at a pier and for sales of animals at dog, cat, or bird shows.  Are these amendments sufficient to address the concerns raised?_

I'd say not.  Where are reptiles in this?  Where is your voice?  The might Bird Lobby preserved their rights?  How about us?

While I am a supporter of USARK and PIJAC, what does it say about them and more importantly  us as a group, that  while people were decrying this as an attempt to stuff the sale of every pet in California, very other group of hobbyists had their voices heard but us?

I'll tell you what it says.  We're pathetic.  Until some of you wake up and pull your heads out of your rear ends we can even more expect nasty, embarrassing surprises like this in the future.

So bravo - while Matt has been thoroughly educated as to the how worthless his opinion is, us folks in California may not be able to go to a herp show in the near future.

So go ahead and hit me with some negative rep or a nasty, witty remark for this post.  All I ask is that first you take 30 minutes of your time and do something vaguely constructive - call Mr. Lieu's office (or e-mail him) and let him know that all of the concerns have not been addressed.

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## asplundii

> So go ahead and hit me with some negative rep or a nasty, witty remark for this post.  All I ask is that first you take 30 minutes of your time and do something vaguely constructive - call Mr. Lieu's office (or e-mail him) and let him know that all of the concerns have not been addressed.


Skip, just an FYI for you, I have never once dolled out negative rep to anyone and I am not about to now. Quite honestly I do not have anything negative to say or think about this post. It makes a very good point. And I will happily draft up a note to Mr. Lieu.

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## Skiploder

> You presume to know me. Never once have I said these bills are going to be argued away. I have felt and still feel that we have been playing a game of catch up for too damn long.


Actually, I don't know you and presume nothing.  The "you" in my post was everyone who would rather argue than do something constructive.  If you fit this description - then I am not sorry.  I you do not - my sincere apologies.




> I am sick to death of all these people who talk about how they saw this coming and use every opportunity to say that. Great, you saw it coming... What the heck were you doing about it back then other than seeing it coming? A Cassandra Complex does not do us any good. So you saw it coming. And yet you did nothing about it back when you saw it coming. You are just as guilty for this mess we are in as the rest of us so take that finger you are pointing at us and turn it right back on yourself.


Not only have I been spouting off my dire prediction of doom for awhile, I have actually tired to do something about it. Believe me, any attempts to self-regulate in this industry have fallen on deaf ears.  Go ask PIJAC about how they are being rewarded by the Reptile Nation for trying to be proactive and kick-start some self-regulation.  It has been met with contempt and suspicion.  There's a healthy tin-foil hat contingent in this hobby that refuses to take any responsibility for their actions and throws hissy-fits any time we try self-regulation and I am freaking sick of it.

I'm guilty of many things, but contributing to this mess - no, I'm not guilty of that.




> , I think that amending legislation is just continuing to play the catch up game. We, as a community need to start _making_ the legislation. We have to start regulating ourselves because that is the surest way to keep others from deciding to step in and regulate us.


I would direct you to efforts by PIJAC to establish some best management practices and how badly that was received by this community.  The complaints ranges from "no way, you can't make us" to "you are trying to open it up to the big box breeders to run us out" to "this is being backed by the Free Masons".  

In other words, people have tried and this community has rejected even the vaguest of efforts to attempt some sort of reform.  

I'm older, I have a good paying job and I can afford whatever permits are required to keep my animals safe and happy.  I am not a breeder.  In short, any concessions that are made I can weather - but I still stay involved - as it seems, do you.

As to making legislation....well, I fear that we are incapable of coming to a consensus as a group.  USARK's efforts in North Carolina attest to that.  Many people in this hobby were miffed at what was legislated there.  I think that we are doomed to have laws stuffed down our throats because we are so crappy at uniting and mobilizing - what's going on with AB 1122 in California is an embarrassing testament to that.

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## asplundii

> Actually, I don't know you and presume nothing.  The "you" in my post was everyone who would rather argue than do something constructive.  If you fit this description - then I am not sorry.  I you do not - my sincere apologies.


My apologies as well. Because you opened by quoting my post I assumed that you were directing your reply to me alone.




> Not only have I been spouting off my dire prediction of doom for awhile, I have actually tired to do something about it. Believe me, any attempts to self-regulate in this industry have fallen on deaf ears.


Again, my apologies. I went off a little half cocked. I have just heard so many people spout the Cassandra line that right now I figure anyone saying "I have seen it coming" is just one more on the list.




> Go ask PIJAC about how they are being rewarded by the Reptile Nation for trying to be proactive and kick-start some self-regulation.  It has been met with contempt and suspicion.  There's a healthy tin-foil hat contingent in this hobby that refuses to take any responsibility for their actions and throws hissy-fits any time we try self-regulation and I am freaking sick of it.


I saw what happened with PIJAC and I still see it happening even now. It bothers me but beyond offering up my ideas to and supporting PIJAC and USARK I do not know what to do. I wish I knew why the word "regulation" is looked on with such contempt. 




> As to making legislation....well, I fear that we are incapable of coming to a consensus as a group.  USARK's efforts in North Carolina attest to that.  Many people in this hobby were miffed at what was legislated there.  I think that we are doomed to have laws stuffed down our throats because we are so crappy at uniting and mobilizing - what's going on with AB 1122 in California is an embarrassing testament to that.


I would agree with you. And that is kind of what I was trying to get at. There is enough division in the community right now that we do not need more thrown at us by people without enough knowledge on the topic deciding what ought and ought not be done. That kind of behavior just widens the chasms within the community.

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## DutchHerp

> Here is a link to a bunch of quotes from those people that Dutchherp so idolizes so much . 
> http://www.naiaonline.org/body/artic...ightsquote.htm


16 posts on this board and already judging me.  

Sit back and learn, young grasshopper, and until then don't go posting your opinions around about people on a public board.

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## waltah!

> 16 posts on this board and already judging me.  
> 
> Sit back and learn, young grasshopper, and until then don't go posting your opinions around about people on a public board.


First off, only having 16 posts here has nothing to do with anything. Being new here does not necessarily make that person new to the hobby. 
Secondly, most of what is typed on public boards is opinion. If you open yourself up public opinion, you cannot complain when you start reading them. 
Lastly, when last I checked this was not Dutchherp.net, so everyone here has the right to post their opinions as long as they keep it clean and relevant.

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## DutchHerp

> First off, only having 16 posts here has nothing to do with anything. Being new here does not necessarily make that person new to the hobby. 
> Secondly, most of what is typed on public boards is opinion. If you open yourself up public opinion, you cannot complain when you start reading them. 
> Lastly, when last I checked this was not Dutchherp.net, so everyone here has the right to post their opinions as long as they keep it clean and relevant.


His opinion of me was wrong, as I don't idolize those folks with the quotes.

But you're right, opinions are what this board is all about.

You gotta understand though, that it's not nice to be called ignorant when you want the best for this hobby.

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## qiksilver

> Here is a link to a bunch of quotes from those people that Dutchherp so idolizes so much . 
> http://www.naiaonline.org/body/artic...ightsquote.htm


yet you're the one who knows exactly where to find said quotes... funny.  


This thread turned into quite the debacle.  There's no right answer, we're not a tight knit group, and we're rude to the people who we need to win over.  The whole divide and conquer tactic works perfectly.  

Honestly, like I said earlier, I think the worry over the Everglades by law makers is contrived, they have no interest in the ecological stability.  If they did, they would have worried more about appropriate uses of land, buying back the land, habitat conservation, water conservation etc. and not banning snakes.

The only thing this thread proves is that we like to pit ourselves against each other instead of working together, and that if I need an informed opinion you can bet your ass I'm asking Skiploder.

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## wolfy-hound

I called the people in California, and was told "You don't live here so shove off" in slightly more polite terms.  I did politely tell them that not having a reptile expo in California meant all the people from all over the US wouldn't be coming into CA to spend their money(and therefor taxes) there.  It should BE a concern for cash strapped states.

I've done every call, every email, every idea I could.  No, I didn't know these things were in the works, I don't normally go looking for someone who might be about to kick my butt, I normally assumed that no one was.  Boy howdy was I wrong.  Now I try to stay up to date, but it's not easy as the legislations stay under wraps until they have it ready to toss at representatives to have them vote on it.

I actually loved the PIJAC plan they had, except for the amounts of money they wanted seemed a bit high.  Especially when it's just a hobby breeder with a handful of snakes.  But I thought it was a cool idea, and sent a email saying so, addressing the idea that the fees might be lower for hobbyiests.  I even posted on this website here, saying about the same thing, and defending it as a voluntary program.  

In short, I've been busting my butt working to help the reptile population, and so have tons of people on this site, and on other sites.  If there's more to be done, POST IT!! I won't know, if someone don't say so!

If writing ANOTHER letter to the CA dude's office would help, I'll do that too.  I stay polite and I try to address issues in a way that the politician will understand also.  Not just "I love snakes!" but how it will economically HELP the state and country overall.

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## Skiploder

> I called the people in California, and was told "You don't live here so shove off" in slightly more polite terms.  I did politely tell them that not having a reptile expo in California meant all the people from all over the US wouldn't be coming into CA to spend their money(and therefor taxes) there.  It should BE a concern for cash strapped states.
> 
> I've done every call, every email, every idea I could.  No, I didn't know these things were in the works, I don't normally go looking for someone who might be about to kick my butt, I normally assumed that no one was.  Boy howdy was I wrong.  Now I try to stay up to date, but it's not easy as the legislations stay under wraps until they have it ready to toss at representatives to have them vote on it.
> 
> I actually loved the PIJAC plan they had, except for the amounts of money they wanted seemed a bit high.  Especially when it's just a hobby breeder with a handful of snakes.  But I thought it was a cool idea, and sent a email saying so, addressing the idea that the fees might be lower for hobbyiests.  I even posted on this website here, saying about the same thing, and defending it as a voluntary program.  
> 
> In short, I've been busting my butt working to help the reptile population, and so have tons of people on this site, and on other sites.  If there's more to be done, POST IT!! I won't know, if someone don't say so!
> 
> If writing ANOTHER letter to the CA dude's office would help, I'll do that too.  I stay polite and I try to address issues in a way that the politician will understand also.  Not just "I love snakes!" but how it will economically HELP the state and country overall.


At this point I don't know what to do either.

If the all mighty cat show and bird show lobby was able to get exempted, maybe we need to pop over to their forums to see how to get it done.

As an aside I appreciate your getting involved in California - I wish more Californians did the same.

When it comes to hype, USARK does a good job of it.  I don't know if I'd call the rear-guard action in Florida a victory - more like telling your old man that "yeah that bully beat the crud out of me but you ought to see the damage my face did to his fist."

The claim is now that we have a voice.  Well, let's start hearing it in California with AB 1122.  That bill is written vaguely enough that it could harm us.  The voices of the other lobbies were heard loud and clear as is evidenced by what I quoted in my other post.

Then again, USARK has a limited budget and manpower.  A lobby is only as organized as it's members and I don't think we are that organized.  A lot of people who supported PIJAC took offense at the fracas that some of the USARK zealots started awhile back and.....well........you know the rest of the story.

Anyway, Theresa, let me thank you again for getting involved here in our fight on the left coast.

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