# Ball Pythons > BP Breeding >  Put it down already

## Mike Cavanaugh

This post is not directed towards anyone in particular.  It is just a topic that should bring some pretty interesting conversation if everyone keeps their cool.  

I am seeing more and more threads where people are going above and beyond to keep deformed / undeveloped / dying hatchlings alive for as long as possible...

Why are you doing this?  I think every case is different but in many cases it is just down right cruel and disgusting.  Bad kinks, deformities, snakes that refuse to even swallow on their own after a couple attempts are all good examples.  Quit thinking about your own heartbreak when you have to place the baby in the freezer and instead think about the hell you are putting that poor baby thru.  It's NOT about you.  Put the poor thing down already and move on!

 :Good Job:    you may now reply... keep your head about you and express your opinions on this touchy subject.

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## briz

I agree 100% with you. (Mike) Not every baby was meant to survive and there is no reason to prolong the inevitable. It's just natures way.

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## Fallguy

I feel the same. I think that after so much trying, you should be able to tell if the animal will be ok. We should all remember that we are in this for the animals, and we should do right by them.

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## wilomn

You FREEZE your babies?

You're an evil evil man.

Old Indians will haunt your dreams.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> You FREEZE your babies?
> 
> You're an evil evil man.
> 
> Old Indians will haunt your dreams.


LOL!   

When you get a chance Wes I would really be interested to hear your opinion on this subject.....

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## wilomn

I put them down. If it's kinked, not just bent a little, in the freezer. Same for any serious deformity, head, eyes, whatever. Fortunately it is rare, but I've been doing it long enough that I've seen a lot.

If it can't eat on it's own, drink by itself, move from warm to cold, it's culled.

Oh, by the way, going off the title of this thread, I was expecting something more along the lines of a Just say No thread.

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_mooingtricycle_ (08-27-2009),NorthernRegius (08-26-2009)

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## Bundu Boy

A question that I would ask myself is

"Would it survive in the wild?"

If the answer is no then it is a candidate for euthanasia....

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## bevilla

Hi, talking about putting down, which are your methods? Which do you think is the most humain?

Thank you and sorry for hijack ur post

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## blackcrystal22

If its clearly not going to live normally, eat normally, or defecate normally, then yes, I will put it down.

I agree with you Mike. Hatchlings with such a low life quality should not be forced to live.

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## mason

100% agree.

I also this the practice (that's getting more widespread) of egg cutting isn't right.

Getting out of the egg is part of the animals natural development process, it helps provide them with strength they will need further down the line.

Now even newbie breeders think egg cutting, purely to find out whats in there, is perfectly normal. Sometimes I think people completely lose sight of the fact that breeding animals is you being allowed to participate and observe a natural process. They really do just see their animals as egg machines  :Sad: 

I remember seeing pictures of a very, very well respected US breeders collection some years back (probably circa '99-00). one of his spiders was a corkscrewing trainwreck, his breeder male caramel albino was kinked like a golf club, I wonder what effect we'll see another 10 years down the line in this hobby from irresponsible practices and breeding.

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_Alice_ (08-26-2009),_fishmommy_ (08-26-2009)

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## m00kfu

I agree.  My only problem is I hate for things to go to waste.  It SHOULD be a while before I run into that situation much if at all, but I've been tossing around the idea of getting a blackhead python or something similar to feed them off to.

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## tbowman

Doesn't ralph davis have some pretty badly kinked caramel albinos that are living perfectly healthy?

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## MPenn

Mike, I agree with you 110%. If the animal will not or can not survive on its own, then it should be culled. There is a reason that snakes are the way they are and have survived all these years; it's called natural selection. Not every baby is meant to survive. Some are meant to be the decoys so that the healthy may escape predators.




> I agree.  My only problem is I hate for things to go to waste.  It SHOULD be a while before I run into that situation much if at all, but I've been tossing around the idea of getting a blackhead python or something similar to feed them off to.


Find someone with a cobra.

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## mason

> Doesn't ralph davis have some pretty badly kinked caramel albinos that are living perfectly healthy?



Just because it's survived (with who knows how much help at first) does not give anyone the right to knowingly breed defective animals like that. Give it away as a pet to someone trusted, keep it around the place but NEVER breed from it.

Nor does mere survival mean it's healthy and happy. For all we know that animal could be in pain, some a little or lots, of every minute of every day. Remember ball pythons have no way of saying "my spine causes me a small amount of pain every time I move".

Now don't get me wrong, it could also be perfectly healthy in every way. I'm not saying "i'm right and you're wrong" but I am definately saying animals like that should never be bred from. And I*KNOW* that they have been and probably are still being bred form by a great many.


Ever wonder how many kinked caramels and super cinnies end up in the freezer? I wonder if it's higher than the number of them that are just kept back and bred from?

With certain projects you know you are buying into a problem (if you've researched). I mean things like caramels kinking, super cinnies kinking and duckbilling, spider wobbling and spinning/corkscrewing).A responsible breeder will do anyhting possible to outcross, strenghten and minimise the bad traits where possible. The responsible ones.

How many are less repsonsible and don't see an animal they shouldn't sell or breed from but merely see it as $1000/2000/5000/10000 in a tub in a snake rack. 

Responsible breeders spend years outcrossing to try and alleviate these problems and all the while x% of breeders at the other end do the exact opposite because they couldn't possibly euthanise an $X000 animal but nor could they really sell an animal thats got a few bumps along it's back or a kink that "doesn't bother it" or a face thats not quite right so there it stays and it gets used in breeding.

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## grim reaper in NY

I'm of the mindset that if you decide to take on the responsibility of breeding ANY animal, you knowingly inherit the risks of dealing with underdeveloped and deformed babies.
Herp breeding is no different. It is up to each and every person who decides to breed these snakes to make a conscious decision to put down ANY snake that is not developed or has suffered deformities in order to preserve the integrity of the species. A failure to do so will only populate the python population with more and more deformed snakes and will eventually impact the overall breeding capability of pythons everywhere. We all must realize that, especially with new legislation forming almost daily now to try and rid pythons from captivity, we must ensure we breed the best possible specimens available for the sake of our hobby.
One thought to ponder here that hasn't been touched on. There are special interest groups worldwide who thrive on trying to shut down herp pet owning due to their own ignorance of the species. Imagine the fuel we would give these groups if they caught wind that there were breeders out there KNOWINGLY breeding deformed snakes all for the sake of turning a profit. They would have a field day with us and we could face even more legal battles trying to save our rights to own not only our beloved balls, but herps of all species. 
I, personally, have contemplated breeding pythons in the future and have started doing alot of research about what morphs lend themselves to more successful breeding practices and so forth. Anyone who decides to get itno this side of python ownership really needs to take their time, ensure they have the room and ability to properly breed these snakes, and be prepared to have to euthanize any snakes that don't develop properly. I also don't understand the cutting open of the eggs as I thought these snakes are fully capable of entering the world on their own. So, if I'm to understand what's been said here previously, we have people that, all for the sake of curiosity, they are taking it upon themselves to cut open eggs just to see what is inside? If that is indeed the case, then you are tampering with the natural process of reproduction and you are only mulitplying the chances of producing babies that are unable to survive on their own. 
Bottom line is this. If you want to breed these awesome animals, then breed them, but let nature take it's course and that includes letting these babies come into the world ON THEIR OWN. 
Sorry if I stepped on any toes here, but you can't reasonably expect to produce fully healthy babies by interfering with the natural order of things.

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_Mitch21_ (08-26-2009)

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## jglass38

Listen,  I fully agree with the practice of culling sick or underdeveloped/deformed babies.  I also agree that we should not breed kinked or deformed animals.  But I am not quite sure how cutting eggs even enters into this discussion.  Tampering with the natural process of reproduction?  Hardly.  A baby is either going to make it or it isn't.  Unless you are cutting eggs and popping the babies out to see what you have or moving the baby around in the egg, then how exactly are you multiplying the chances of producing non viable babies?

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> Hi, talking about putting down, which are your methods? Which do you think is the most humain?
> 
> Thank you and sorry for hijack ur post


Freezing.  Most believe it is the most humane way to put a reptile down.  This too has been its own subject of threads many times over.  There is a few ways to do it but the most commonly practiced by both breeders and veterinarians is freezing.




> 100% agree.
> 
> I also this the practice (that's getting more widespread) of egg cutting isn't right.
> 
> Getting out of the egg is part of the animals natural development process, it helps provide them with strength they will need further down the line.
> 
> Now even newbie breeders think egg cutting, purely to find out whats in there, is perfectly normal. Sometimes I think people completely lose sight of the fact that breeding animals is you being allowed to participate and observe a natural process. They really do just see their animals as egg machines 
> 
> I remember seeing pictures of a very, very well respected US breeders collection some years back (probably circa '99-00). one of his spiders was a corkscrewing trainwreck


Now his is where it gets a little complicated. 

Egg cutting.  I don't see any problems with it. It has no negative effect on the babies as long as it is done correctly and at the right time.  In my opinion the right time is once the first eggs pip, any that still haven't piped the next day get cut.  If the baby is deformed when the cut is done then back to my origional point.

Spiders.  Wobbling is a trait of the morph period.  There has been MANY threads on this so lets try not to get too hung up on it in this post. A wobbbling spider eats, drinks, reproduces, and lives just fine all by itself.  Its strange behavior is simply what a spider does.  Bottom line is, if you have a spider it wobbles, corkscrews, whatever you want to call it.  If your spider does not have the wobbles then either you haven't had it long enough, or you don't know what to look for.  IMHO the spider morph should not be considered a deformity for the purposes of this discussion.

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## Dalishar

Hard as it would be to shove a new baby in a freezer, I think if quality of life came into question I would try and make the right decision. Of course, I'm only a year into the hobby with three to go before I even have a chance of facing such a dilemma. 

Heh, to be honest it reminds me of a puppy my mom produced last year. I understand that it's not a reptile, but I do believe the story is relevant to the topic. My mother used to breed Australian Shepherds, and all the litters were 100% healthy until this last one. We had one puppy, a real runt, that took a little bit extra to get started (She wasn't breathing when she was born, but a lot of rubbing and other things got her going). She also looked a bit off, but we completely disregarded that - she was alive, she ate, she poo'd, and she crawled just like the rest of the litter. A month passed and everyone's eyes were open, and this little pup (now called Tiny) was still very obviously the runt of the litter. She'd grown a teensy bit, but nothing compared to her siblings. Shortly after her eyes opened, however, she started going down hill. She wouldn't eat, but we assumed it was due to the bigger pups pushing her out of the way so decided to hand feed her instead. After about a week of that, she didn't show much improvement - but she did eat, she did poo, and she did still walk around just like the others. Then one day she just started letting out these absolutely horrible, agonized screams. Within an hour of the first scream she was euthanized, and the only explanation the vet could give us was her liver had likely never developed correctly. 

Faced with a potentially similar situation in my snakes - an under developed baby - I would hope that at the first sign of difficulty (never eating, obvious defects, etc) I could get myself to cull the hatchling. I regret very much having not just let that puppy be "born dead", since she obviously died in a lot of pain. That was a creature that could tell me it was in pain too - how would I ever know if a snake was in that much agony until it finally just died?

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## grim reaper in NY

> Listen,    Tampering with the natural process of reproduction?  Hardly.


Do we do practice this technique with other animals or even humans?  No.  We do have ways of ensuring the maturity of babies in humans through modern medicine, hence allowing us to induce labor and so forth.
But, just because one snake egg pips doesn't mean all are ready to pip at the exact same time. Some may need an extra day or two to ensure or enhance their chance of survival before they attempt to enter the world. 
You can say that cutting eggs doesn't harm the newborn snakes, and you might be right. But how can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt it doesn't?

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## mason

my apologies, the egg cutting thing was just a side-rant. not related to the topic at hand. I just disagree when I see amateur routinely cutting eggs at day X. Wait for the damn things to pip  :Smile: 

Ditto with the spider, not using that as an example of a problem that responsible breeding can fix, merely listing all the known issues that came to mind of the top of my head,Perhaps I should have stuck to the relevant ones such as kinked super blacks/super cinnies, kinking caramels, duckbilling in certain supers etc etc.

BUT on the spider issue if people had been less willing to accept thier behavious as "ok" *OR* breeders had been more open and honest about their problems from the off then perhaps there wouldn't be so many thousands of spiders bred and more people would have just said "no thanks". Other than that you're right, it's not really a relevant topic for discussion in this thread.

Please don't let the small off topic parts of my post become the focus here, most of it was relevant.

We have culled in the apst, fortunately it's rare, certain morphs and projects just increase the chances.Some to the point of an almost certainty.

I'll say this final thing about egg cutting.

It DOES interfere. a python in the wild that could not pip on it's own would perish. IT also can cause harm to the snake in the egg. if you just attack it without knowing what you are doing it's possible to sever some blood vesels that the snake is still finding quite useful. IT's just not something I think should be shown to people as a "normal" thing to do. It's a bit like probing, something people should learn, but something they should be shown properly by someone with experience of it but unlike probing it shouldn't be seen as essential or normal.

Sorry for taking this off topic, back to the issue in hand.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

Thanks Dalishar, that was a good relevant story.  

Problem is, snakes can't scream out in main.  this is why common sense with the snakes condition must be used...  Dont' just force them to stay alive because they are not dead yet.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> But, just because one snake egg pips doesn't mean all are ready to pip at the exact same time. Some may need an extra day or two to ensure or enhance their chance of survival before they attempt to enter the world. 
> You can say that cutting eggs doesn't harm the newborn snakes, and you might be right. *But how can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt it doesn't?*


I have never heard of a ball python dying as result of someone cutting an egg.  There have even been documented case in this community where people have mistakenly cut eggs weeks early.  Still with proper care the babies turned out just fine.  




> BUT on the spider issue if people had been less willing to accept thier behavious as "ok" *OR* breeders had been more open and honest about their problems from the off then perhaps there wouldn't be so many thousands of spiders bred and more people would have just said "no thanks". 
> 
> 
> It DOES interfere. a python in the wild that could not pip on it's own would perish. IT also can cause harm to the snake in the egg. if you just attack it without knowing what you are doing it's possible to sever some blood vesels that the snake is still finding quite useful. IT's just not something I think should be shown to people as a "normal" thing to do. It's a bit like probing, something people should learn, but something they should be shown properly by someone with experience of it but unlike probing it shouldn't be seen as essential or normal.


Last time I will comment on this.  Spider wobbling is a trait of the morph. It does not interfere with their eating, drinking, reproducing or life.  Judging by their consistent very aggressive feeding response, they do not appear to be in any discomfort. The spider / wobble trait should not be seen as "problems"

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## jglass38

> Do we do practice this technique with other animals or even humans?  No.  We do have ways of ensuring the maturity of babies in humans through modern medicine, hence allowing us to induce labor and so forth.
> But, just because one snake egg pips doesn't mean all are ready to pip at the exact same time. Some may need an extra day or two to ensure or enhance their chance of survival before they attempt to enter the world. 
> You can say that cutting eggs doesn't harm the newborn snakes, and you might be right. But how can you say beyond a shadow of a doubt it doesn't?


Cutting eggs in snakes and inducing labor in humans is an apples to oranges comparison.  Whether I cut an egg on day 52 or wait until it pips at day 55, the baby still doesn't come out until it is ready.

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## Freakie_frog

the way I look at it is two fold 

1: I'm limited for space and as such I know that I can't keep every slightly deformed animal I will ever produce. I also know that selling these animals is not only unfair to the animal but to the person I'm selling it to. So with limited space and no way to move the product/animal I know I will be forced to cull some of the deformed animals simply in the interest of business. 

2: If the animal has the desire and drive to live. It eats and makes a whole hearten attempt at making a go of it I am of the opinion that I produce the animal intentionally and because of this I owe it the chance to survive in spite of its deformity.

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_Argentra_ (08-28-2009),_bad-one_ (08-26-2009),gp_dragsandballs (08-26-2009),_Ladydragon_ (08-26-2009),NorthernRegius (08-26-2009)

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## JasonG

> Cutting eggs in snakes and inducing labor in humans is an apples to oranges comparison.  Whether I cut an egg on day 52 or wait until it pips at day 55, the baby still doesn't come out until it is ready.


AMEN!

I agree with you 100%

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## grim reaper in NY

> AMEN!
> 
> I agree with you 100%


Well, I'm obviously way off base here so I'll just shut up and apologize for posting in this thread.

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## jglass38

> Well, I'm obviously way off base here so I'll just shut up and apologize for posting in this thread.


No need to apologize.  You made some good points!  You were on track until the cutting argument. In my opinion it just doesn't belong in a thread about culling sick or deformed animals.  There have been very valuable threads about cutting and what I would agree with is that many do it incorrectly.

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_Wild Bill_ (08-27-2009)

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## JAMills

I agree with you Mike!

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## Vypyrz

We defy the laws of "Natural Selection" when applied to ourselves, and it's not just snakes we do this to. I've seen plenty of messed up dogs and cats that people should have put down...

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## ladywhipple02

> 2: If the animal has the desire and drive to live. It eats and makes a whole hearten attempt at making a go of it I am of the opinion that I produce the animal intentionally and because of this I owe it the chance to survive in spite of its deformity.



Thanks for this! A few of you probably still remember when I took in a few animals that were deformed (some pretty badly). I fed them up and gave them some great homes as pets. I still have one boa myself... she is completely kinked, from right behind her head down to the bend in her tail. She would NOT survive in the wild (she can't contrict, nor move very fast), but she HAS survived here. She eats well every week, she sheds and poos like normal... she just has a little trouble getting around. And I try to make that as painless as possible for her. Fact is, she's six feet of absolute sweetness, one of the nicest snakes I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with.

So, my question to the those who cull: you brough an animal into the world. Where do you draw the line on it's life? You can't simply stand behind nature and say they wouldn't have survived otherwise. Very few carmels or super cinnys are born in the wild. WE create these animals... and, as long as they're willing to give it a fighting chance, I feel we have a responsibility in attempting to give them the care they deserve.

I'll step down from the soapbox now  :Embarassed:

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## Freakie_frog

> So, my question to the those who cull: you brought an animal into the world. Where do you draw the line on it's life? You can't simply stand behind nature and say they wouldn't have survived otherwise. Very few carmels or super cinnys are born in the wild. WE create these animals... and, as long as they're willing to give it a fighting chance, I feel we have a responsibility in attempting to give them the care they deserve.
> 
> I'll step down from the soapbox now


I guess that depends on the animal and what effect the deformity had on it's "quality of life" apart from human interaction. Every instance is going to be different.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

You say your snake has "trouble getting around"  what exactly does this mean?

Have you considered that maybe the reason it chooses not to move around much is because it experiences pain when it does?   

You say it is sweet and one of the nicest snake you have?  what behaviors / and or / characteristics in your opinion make it "sweet and nice?"  

Disclaimer... this is not a personal attack... just a reply to what you posted.

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## Stewart_Reptiles

I believe it is a personal call that each and every one of us need to learn how to make (its not easy).

Some people are trying too hard and do not realize that prolonging life is not always the best nor the most human option for the animal.

Culling does not (always) mean being heartless and cruel in some cases it means being human and having mercy still doesn't make it easy to do but it is one side of the hobby that anyone that breeds will have to face sooner or later.

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MrBig (12-18-2011)

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## tonkatoyman

When you determine that an animal of any kind should be put down, you are making a choice that should never be made lightly. It gives me great encouragement that while everyone for the most part agree on the need to euthanize, we all seem to approach it with the same extreem caution it deserves. Be sure and be careful any time you determine to end a life. Once it's gone, it's gone.

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_cinderbird_ (08-26-2009),Muze (08-26-2009),_oliverstwist_ (08-26-2009)

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## Jerhart

Mike I agree with you!

Do I dare throw another log on the fire, meh....can of worms?

What about breeding a trait which is known to exhibit neuro problems?

Example being Spiders.

I breed both Balls and Carpets, but I do not own any Spiders or Jags (Carpets) for this reason.  

I would have a hard time breeding a trait (spider) that I know tends to have neurological problems affecting the animal's motorskills.  Now you could add, this is where natural selection takes place and those unable feed will be put down.  I choose not to take that chance.  Because of this, I don't own any Spiders or Jags.  Now I know there are MANY spiders out there that exhibit no wobble, or little wobble but eat just fine.  That is great!  It is the few spiders that do hatch out with signs of neuro problems that keep me from breeding this particular morph.

_Disclaimer._  I am NOT against other people breeding spiders.  I don't want this post to be viewed as a "you are a bad person because you breed spiders" thread.  No way am I saying this.  I think spiders are a great looking morph.  I love looking at all the crosses that pop up every year.  I am just a but turned away from them due to the fact that SOME tend to exhibit neuro problems that may affect the snake's quality of life.  I know there are A LOT of people out there with spiders that are perfectly fine.  Cool.  Just knowing that this is a possibility; I, myself would just feel responsible if I bred spiders, and hatched out an animal that showed signs of severe neuro damage that had to be put down.

Now I know there are a going to be a lot of people who disagree.  Many of whom who own perfectly fine spiders.  I just thought I would throw this out there as I am sure I am one of the few who feel this way. 

That's all.  :Smile:

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## jglass38

> Mike I agree with you!
> 
> Do I dare throw another log on the fire, meh....can of worms?
> 
> What about breeding a trait which is known to exhibit neuro problems?
> 
> Example being Spiders.
> 
> I breed both Balls and Carpets, but I do not own any Spiders or Jags (Carpets) for this reason.  
> ...


Some good thoughts.  Although I am not sure that wobbling/spinning Spiders have a reduced quality of life.  All I have seen eat/grow/defecate and appear to have the ability to live a normal life.  My male Spider is slightly tweaked, but far from the worst I have seen.  His offspring so far are not showing signs of major issues. My Albino male is much worse.  For those that are uninformed, no, it's not just limited to Spiders.  I have seen normals that are absolute train wrecks.  You never know when it's going to pop up.

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## mason

> Some good thoughts.  Although I am not sure that wobbling/spinning Spiders have a reduced quality of life.  All I have seen eat/grow/defecate and appear to have the ability to live a normal life.  My male Spider is slightly tweaked, but far from the worst I have seen.  His offspring so far are not showing signs of major issues. My Albino male is much worse.  For those that are uninformed, no, it's not just limited to Spiders.  I have seen normals that are absolute train wrecks.  You never know when it's going to pop up.


True, but by breeding spiders you increase the chances of it happening from almost none (i've NEVER hatched a normal or another co-dom with Neuro problems) to very high. We decided not to work with the spider morph but thats just a personal choice. Let me put this to you:

If people are willing to accept spiders as "ok" then will this lead to/has this lead to the acceptance of other flaws for the sake of beauty?

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## jglass38

> True, but by breeding spiders you increase the chances of it happening from almost none (i've NEVER hatched a normal or another co-dom with Neuro problems) to very high. We decided not to work with the spider morph but thats just a personal choice. Let me put this to you:
> 
> If people are willing to accept spiders as "ok" then will this lead to/has this lead to the acceptance of other flaws for the sake of beauty?


I would have to question what criteria determines which flaws we accept and which we don't.  Is a flaw that doesn't affect how an animal lives really a problem?  I guess for some it is.  What would be an unacceptable trait in a dog to an AKC breeder may not be a problem for Joe Blow who just wants a dog for a companion.  

What other flaws have been accepted for the sake of beauty?

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## Jerhart

> I would have to question what criteria determines which flaws we accept and which we don't.  Is a flaw that doesn't affect how an animal lives really a problem?  I guess for some it is.  What would be an unacceptable trait in a dog to an AKC breeder may not be a problem for Joe Blow who just wants a dog for a companion.  
> 
> What other flaws have been accepted for the sake of beauty?


You know Joe Blow too!?!? He is my neighbor! 









Seriously...  :Smile:

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## jglass38

> You know Joe Blow too!?!? He is my neighbor! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course!  I didn't know we lived so close to each other.

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## ladywhipple02

> You say your snake has "trouble getting around"  what exactly does this mean?
> 
> Have you considered that maybe the reason it chooses not to move around much is because it experiences pain when it does?   
> 
> You say it is sweet and one of the nicest snake you have?  what behaviors / and or / characteristics in your opinion make it "sweet and nice?"  
> 
> Disclaimer... this is not a personal attack... just a reply to what you posted.



When I said she has trouble getting around: she doesn't NOT move. When you pick her up, she coils tightly, as if afraid of being dropped. You literally have to unwrap her from around your arm when you set her down. When you set her down, she coils around herself... it's like she has trouble unwinding. You can help her or leave her to her own devices, and she's goes where she wants (she can climb, etc). 

As for being "sweet and nice", yes, I was anthropomorphizing an animal that doesn't feel these emotions. These are things that I feel towards her because she has never hissed or tried to take a swing at me. I have taken her to shows for educational purposes, she is fine being handled by others. That's my definition.

I guess my point is this: every single one of us plays God just a little bit when we put two viable animals together. Natural selection doesn't play into it at all... natural selection didn't put those two animals together. So, if we as we are responsible for creating the babies that pip, aren't we responsible for taking care of them? All of them? 

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not going to let a creature suffer. If it literally can't move or take care of itself at all, then yes, by all means, your responsibility to that animal is to end its suffering!

It IS a case by case basis...

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## Turbo Serpent

> True, but by breeding spiders you increase the chances of it happening from almost none (i've NEVER hatched a normal or another co-dom with Neuro problems) to very high. We decided not to work with the spider morph but thats just a personal choice. Let me put this to you:
> 
> If people are willing to accept spiders as "ok" then will this lead to/has this lead to the acceptance of other *flaws* for the sake of beauty?


Is your definition of a flaw anything that would hinder it in the wild? If that is the case almost every morph would fall into this category.

The Normal/Wild Type is that way for a reason. It is perfectly camouflaged for its habitat. An albino is going to stand out like a sore thumb, as would a BEL, or any other bright BP. Easier for a predator to spot their bright beautiful meal.

So by your comments should we simply cull all of our morphs because they may not have survived in the wild?

If we get into Natural Selection... most of the animals we breed shouldn't survive/exist or be as large as they become as fast, because meals aren't always readily available, nor are there frozen thawed rats in the wild. Captivity changes everything.

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_accidental777_ (08-26-2009),Muze (08-26-2009)

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## h00blah

i havent read the entire thread, and i dont breed snakes, so idk if its worth anyones time to read wut I think, BUT:

i definately agree it's case by case. depending on how severe the "deformation" or "flaw" is, if its suffering, or if it cant eat on its own, or cant move, then put it down.

also, if I was breeding snakes, i would probably do EVERYTHING in my power to keep my babies alive, bc if YOU yourself put your hard work, dedication, time, and sweat into raising those adults to breed, praying for fertilized eggs, incubating those eggs, monitoring them closely, then awaiting that adorable little BP head to poke its head at you and greet u, rite there, uve gotten attached to the animal and u WILL do wut u need to in order to save it.

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## mason

> Is your definition of a flaw anything that would hinder it in the wild? If that is the case almost every morph would fall into this category.
> 
> The Normal/Wild Type is that way for a reason. It is perfectly camouflaged for its habitat. An albino is going to stand out like a sore thumb, as would a BEL, or any other bright BP. Easier for a predator to spot their bright beautiful meal.
> 
> So by your comments should we simply cull all of our morphs because they may not have survived in the wild?
> 
> If we get into Natural Selection... most of the animals we breed shouldn't survive/exist or be as large as they become as fast, because meals aren't always readily available, nor are there frozen thawed rats in the wild. Captivity changes everything.



Please donj't twist my words. MY definition of a flaw is something that makes a royal unable to act in it's normal manner or obvious things like deformity.

Your argument about morphs is rediculous, for starters royals will, in the wild, spend 80-90%+ of their time underground. How exactly do you think these morphs came to captivity? You think every single wild caught morph is a young hatchling? Well I can tell you there are WC ADULT, sub adult, yearling and hatchling morphs coming out of africa every year, MANY morphs first hit the scene as a WC adult. There was a good sized (8-900G WC albino male sold only this year in the UK. Fresh import. EVERY year you can aquire (if you have the contacts and the money) PLENTY of WC pastels, ghosts, basic co-doms and basic recessive morphs. They Can and do survive in the wild. 

 I'm not talking about natural selection, nor having the captivity/nature argument. 

But to answer your question succinctly: No, I do not mean anything that would hamper it in the wild (not that I consider being a different colour a problem for this species!). I mean anything that means the ball python cannot behave like a royal python be that neurological or physical.

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## Wh00h0069

Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.

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## mason

> Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.


We cull too if the need arises.

I keep retics along with the balls etc and seeing one eyed albinos for sale (mainly retics and burms, but some boas too) really saddens me, because the breeder tries to justify it by selling it a bit cheaper, but all this does it pretty much guarantee it's going to end up with someone who wants it for breeding which tucks the problem away for another breeder to deal with by producing what must effectively be considered poss het blind/poss het one eyed snakes!

But then things like this are exactly why (assuming you care about quality when it comes to your breeding animals and pets) buying from a trusted source should always be a higher priority than finding x animal/morph as cheaply as possible.

Good little on-topic-ish point that, the whole one eyed thing is quite common and must be considered one of the flaws that breeders should definately try not to encourage!

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## ladywhipple02

> Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.


I think a responsible breeder would not sell them. Or, if they do sell them, they know who they are selling them to, and for what purposes... ie, they sell them as pets ONLY, and NOT for profit. A good breeder is going to take a little time with their customers, anyway, so putting a little extra effort into making sure a snake gets a good, stable home shouldn't be that big a deal.

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## Turbo Serpent

> Please donj't twist my words. MY definition of a flaw is something that makes a royal unable to act in it's normal manner or obvious things like deformity.
> 
> Your argument about morphs is rediculous, for starters royals will, in the wild, spend 80-90%+ of their time underground. How exactly do you think these morphs came to captivity? You think every single wild caught morph is a young hatchling? Well I can tell you there are WC ADULT, sub adult, yearling and hatchling morphs coming out of africa every year, MANY morphs first hit the scene as a WC adult. There was a good sized (8-900G WC albino male sold only this year in the UK. Fresh import. EVERY year you can aquire (if you have the contacts and the money) PLENTY of WC pastels, ghosts, basic co-doms and basic recessive morphs. They Can and do survive in the wild. 
> 
>  I'm not talking about natural selection, nor having the captivity/nature argument. 
> 
> But to answer your question succinctly: No, I do not mean anything that would hamper it in the wild (not that I consider being a different colour a problem for this species!). I mean anything that means the ball python cannot behave like a royal python be that neurological or physical.


Only part of my argument was directed at you, and yes I understand that morphs come from the wild and that most of them are adults, I was simply trying to understand what you mean by flaws.

And most of the combos and supers we have, were created by our breedings and have never existed in the wild because of the rare possibility of morphs to pair and copulate in the wild.

I honestly have yet to produce any deformities so I have no personal experience with culling any of my animals, but if and when something happens I am not going to perpetuate the deformities in our hobby, it will be in my freezer.

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## oliverstwist

ij ustread five pages of posting and all i have to say is =I agree but qre you saying that Goober should have been culled?  :Sad:

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## Jay_Bunny

It is my first year breeding ball pythons and I'm guessing my issue with my hatchling contributed to your need to post this thread. So I feel I need to respond. 

I fully agree that once it is obvious an animal is suffering, humanely euthanizing it is the best thing for it. This is true for severely deformed animals that have no chance of living a comfortable life. 

Now, in the case of my hatchling, Rubiix, he has shown he has a will to live and I was told not to give up until it was obvious there was no saving him. Today I'm taking him to be fed by a pinky pump. He will also be tube fed. If it becomes obvious that he can't move food into his stomach or at the end of 1-2 weeks he hasn't gained any weight back, I will take him to the vet to be humanely euthanized. (I will not put a live animal in a freezer. This is my own belief and opinion, please do not tell me to do otherwise). I made the choice to breed my snakes and I am responsible for the hatchlings in every way, including ending their suffering if need be. For now, I'm still going to give him a last chance. Maybe I'm just one of those nature lovers that finds a miracle in every breath of life and this little hatchling is a miracle to me. I owe it to him to make every effort to help him survive and I also owe it to him to let him go if he decides he doesn't want to fight anymore. Some of you may say, he's just a snake, but to me, he's the first snake I ever hatched out. He's special to me and I am very attached to him.

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## Eventide

I believe in giving an animal every chance possible to live.  Doesn't matter if the snake has one eye, no eyes, kinks--whatever.  It's not the snake's fault it's deformed.

Now, if the deformity is severely interfering with the snake's quality of life, then yes, _humane_ euthanization is necessary.  I do not wish any animal to suffer just because _I_ want it to survive.

And no, putting it in the freezer is not a humane way of euthanizing a reptile.  Reptiles take much longer to die in the freezer than mammals due to their slower metabolism.  I would never want to make a reptile suffer like that.

Also, I don't think severe deformities should be bred and/or sold.  If I were to breed some pythons and find that one or both of the parents were passing on deformities, I would figure out which parent it is and stop breeding that snake, and I would either keep the deformed offspring or give them to loving homes as pets.  We, as breeders, do have a responsibility for passing on only the most healthy of snakes as future breeders.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> Sort of on topic. What are your opinions on people selling their deformed animals? There are a few ads on kingsnake now of people selling animals that are missing an eye. I personally cull deformed animals as soon as they are out of the egg.


Wow, i saw that add on kingsnake and i know who you are talking about.. Not personally, but he has delt with my 2 friends that are breeders.. I was surprised to see that add as well. As far as my friends (the breeders) are concerned, it shouldnt be allowed to be that way... They say yes its sometimes a hard decision but when you really care about the welfare of the animal and the entire genus as a whole, you dont let the seriously deformed ones out in public, where they may fall into the hands of someone who will breed it and pass on genetic problems..

I personally would find it hard to put down any animal but if its necessary i will. I had to put down an older painted turtle i had due to a blockage she had and she was suffering.. As for spiders.. I cant comment on that seeing as im getting a Bee.. But i will not be putting it to another spider or spider morph. I simply would not do that and risk creating snakes with serious problems.. Just my opinion..

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## jglass38

> As for spiders.. I cant comment on that seeing as im getting a Bee.. But i will not be putting it to another spider or spider morph. I simply would not do that and risk creating snakes with serious problems.. Just my opinion..


Not really going to make a difference unfortunately.  All Spiders are at least slightly tweaked.  Sometimes it is so subtle that it's hard to notice.  You'll have the chance of producing tweaked babies from pairing that bee with anything.

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> Not really going to make a difference unfortunately.  All Spiders are at least slightly tweaked.  Sometimes it is so subtle that it's hard to notice.  You'll have the chance of producing tweaked babies from pairing that bee with anything.


True. But i have read that if the wobble or spins, is noticable, the chances of it being even more noticable in the offspring can go up with each generation (if inbreeding). If the defects are not noticable in the parent snake then the babies are less likely to have a noticable defect. Im guessing this is just a theory as ive not seen any real evidence of breeding to prove this point.. But the bee im buying is very close to breeding size and shows no noticable signs of wobble or defect. So im hoping that will pas on to her babies..

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## jglass38

> True. But i have read that if the wobble or spins, is noticable, the chances of it being even more noticable in the offspring can go up with each generation (if inbreeding). If the defects are not noticable in the parent snake then the babies are less likely to have a noticable defect. Im guessing this is just a theory as ive not seen any real evidence of breeding to prove this point.. But the bee im buying is very close to breeding size and shows no noticable signs of wobble or defect. So im hoping that will pas on to her babies..


Do you have a link to where you read that?  I would guess you're right that it's just a theory.  Best of luck with the breedings!

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (08-27-2009)

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## Hock3ymonk3y

> A question that I would ask myself is
> 
> "Would it survive in the wild?"
> 
> If the answer is no then it is a candidate for euthanasia....


An albino would probably not live in the wild..... choose your words more carefully. 

I totally agree with you mike, some babies were not meant to live...

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## jglass38

> An albino would probably not live in the wild..... choose your words more carefully.


I'm pretty sure you know what he meant.  He meant a defect or deformity that would keep it from being able to successfully survive in the wild.   :Good Job:

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> Hi, talking about putting down, which are your methods? Which do you think is the most humain?
> 
> Thank you and sorry for hijack ur post


I know people who just put it in the freezer until its no longer alive. I personally dont do that. Being a reptile, i feel if its put in the fridge first its more humane. Puts them into a fast forced hibernation and they just fall asleep. I think putting them directly in the freezer would painful as the blood in their veins begins to freeze while they are still alive.. This is just the way i think of it but im sure many people will disagree..

As for people cutting eggs. I dont agree with that at all. At least one baby will be able to pip the egg itself. If not most or all of them. I dont think an egg should be cut until after the first couple pips. Then the "cutting" should not be a butcher job that opens up the egg completely. Only widening the slit the baby already made so it doesnt get stuck, and making a split slit in the eggs that have not pipped in case the baby lost an eggtooth. But never cutting open the entire top of the egg. 

There is a breeder on my friends list on myspace that i was very disappointed in when i saw he was cutting eggs before the first pip just to have the babies out in time for the show.. Thats not right and bad business practice. Im glad this person made it public though. Now i know who NOT to buy from..

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## jglass38

> As for people cutting eggs. I dont agree with that at all. At least one baby will be able to pip the egg itself. If not most or all of them. I dont think an egg should be cut until after the first couple pips. Then the "cutting" should not be a butcher job that opens up the egg completely. Only widening the slit the baby already made so it doesnt get stuck, and making a split slit in the eggs that have not pipped in case the baby lost an eggtooth. But never cutting open the entire top of the egg. 
> 
> There is a breeder on my friends list on myspace that i was very disappointed in when i saw he was cutting eggs before the first pip just to have the babies out in time for the show.. Thats not right and bad business practice. Im glad this person made it public though. Now i know who NOT to buy from..


I don't understand exactly what your issue is with cutting.  There is a big difference between a breeder that cuts eggs and one that cuts eggs and pulls the babies out before they are ready.  I cut eggs.  Every clutch, every time.  I can guarantee you that the hatchlings won't come out until they are ready, regardless of what day I cut.  I would never pull them out of the egg though.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (08-27-2009)

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## kellysballs

Okay here is how I feel about the issue.

I think if the deformity makes the animal unable to eat, breathe, deficate or move the animal should be humanly euthanized. (Not frozen that is another whole thread in itself).

Here is my issue with deformities (and it will probably ruffle some feathers). I am sure that all of us can agree that defomities in ball pythons are more prevalant in certain morphs. Now if that is true, wouldn't that make most of the deformities "genetic"? I understand that there can be incubation issues but you can't say that all 8ball duck bills, carmel kinks, spider wobbles, missing and deformed eyes are all due to improper incubation.

Now most breeders on here are stating that they cull severly deformed animals, and all of us pretty much agree that the deformed animal should not be bred. Here is the question...What about the parents, grandparents and siblings of these animals. 

If as stated before the deformed animal may pass on the trait, that means it aquired the trait in the first place from one or more of it's parents or grandparents, and that it's siblings may also carry the deformed trait hidden away in their genes. So unless you cull the entire line that produced the deformity you are adding possible carriers of deformities on to future generations. 

In reality very VERY few people will do this, all breeders have money invested in their animals (no matter if it is a hobby or business). Unfortunatley it is par for the course when working with genetic mutations. I have heard the "morphs came from the wild" alot, but if you think about it ALL morphs are in one way or the other a mutation of the commonly occuring wild type ball python. 

I personally don't have a problem with genetic mutation I find it extremely facinating and I LOVE breeding my ball pythons. I just wanted to share my opinion on the subject and  I hope that no one feels I am attacking them in anyway.

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Foschi Exotic Serpents (08-26-2009)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> I don't understand exactly what your issue is with cutting.  There is a big difference between a breeder that cuts eggs and one that cuts eggs and pulls the babies out before they are ready.  I cut eggs.  Every clutch, every time.  I can guarantee you that the hatchlings won't come out until they are ready, regardless of what day I cut.  I would never pull them out of the egg though.


OK but do you cut before day 54? or closer to day 60? Im pretty sure this guy was cutting the eggs right around day 50. Im just not thinking thats a good idea. The runt i lost did stay in his egg for almost 3 days but he still did not absorb any of the yolk. I didnt cut his egg until after the other 2 had pipped on day 56 i believe. 

How do you feel about the people who open up the entire top of the egg? To the point of actually removing most of the top of the egg? Ive seen pics people posted of this. Wouldnt that allow the yolk and to dry out too fast?

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## jglass38

> OK but do you cut before day 54? or closer to day 60? Im pretty sure this guy was cutting the eggs right around day 50. Im just not thinking thats a good idea. The runt i lost did stay in his egg for almost 3 days but he still did not absorb any of the yolk. I didnt cut his egg until after the other 2 had pipped on day 56 i believe. 
> 
> How do you feel about the people who open up the entire top of the egg? To the point of actually removing most of the top of the egg? Ive seen pics people posted of this. Wouldnt that allow the yolk and to dry out too fast?


I cut when I feel like it's safe to cut. Normally that is day 50-52 or so.  I make a small flap in the egg.  I get to satisfy my curiosity by seeing what is inside.  I then put the eggs back in the incubator.  Around day 56 or so I cut a larger opening.  I haven't noticed anything drying out or babies that are small or dehydrated.  All of them eat and shed normally. If I had concerns, I wouldn't do it.  Cutting an egg correctly is not going to keep the animal from absorbing any nutrients.  Trying to reposition an animal in the egg to see pattern or color or generally messing with it could cause problems.  I think everyone should do whatever they feel comfortable with.  If that means waiting until the first one pips, that is great.  If it means cutting at day 48, that is cool too.  I certainly wouldn't condemn someone for doing it.  Where I draw the line is cutting and forcibly removing a hatchling from the egg before it's ready.    If my egg cutting makes me a bad guy in someone's book then I believe they haven't looked around enough or read enough threads and seen what a real bad guy looks like.  Someone who sends sick or poorly packaged animals.  Someone that sends empty boxes or completely scams someone out of animals or money.  Those are the bad guys in this hobby, not someone who cuts an egg before an arbitrary day, whether it's 54, 56, 58 or 60.

----------

_AaronP_ (08-27-2009),_Fearless_ (08-26-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (08-27-2009),_monk90222_ (08-28-2009),rabernet (08-26-2009),Stewart_Reptiles (08-26-2009),_Turbo Serpent_ (08-26-2009)

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## Foschi Exotic Serpents

> Trying to reposition an animal in the egg to see pattern or color or generally messing with it could cause problems. Where I draw the line is cutting and forcibly removing a hatchling from the egg before it's ready.


Well at least we agree on something.

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## bad-one

I don't breed snakes yet but within 2-3 years I will be. 

I having nothing against culling animals when neccesary. If I end up ever producing an animal that simply doesn't thrive and has no "will" to do so it will end up in my fridge and then my freezer (and I'll probably cry like a baby when I do it). 

As for selling animals with obvious defects (one eye, no eyes, minor- severe kinks) it is a very poor practice indeed. Even worse is they are offered cheaper making it convenient for irresponsible breeders to buy. I believe animals like this should either go to a good friend who wouldn't breed it, be kept, or be put down. By selling animals like this you are only risking it being bred by someone.

Spiders are an interesting one. Imho, a bit of wobbling/tweaked behavior is to be expected but I would never breed a spider who consistently shows me extreme wobbling, corkscrewing, spinning. 

On a side note- I see nothing wrong with cutting eggs once one has pipped. The snake's will come out when they are ready on their terms.



> I cut when I feel like it's safe to cut. Normally that is day 50-52 or so. I make a small flap in the egg. I get to satisfy my curiosity by seeing what is inside. I then put the eggs back in the incubator. Around day 56 or so I cut a larger opening. I haven't noticed anything drying out or babies that are small or dehydrated. All of them eat and shed normally. If I had concerns, I wouldn't do it. Cutting an egg correctly is not going to keep the animal from absorbing any nutrients. Trying to reposition an animal in the egg to see pattern or color or generally messing with it could cause problems. I think everyone should do whatever they feel comfortable with. If that means waiting until the first one pips, that is great. If it means cutting at day 48, that is cool too. I certainly wouldn't condemn someone for doing it. Where I draw the line is cutting and forcibly removing a hatchling from the egg before it's ready. If my egg cutting makes me a bad guy in someone's book then I believe they haven't looked around enough or read enough threads and seen what a real bad guy looks like. Someone who sends sick or poorly packaged animals. Someone that sends empty boxes or completely scams someone out of animals or money. Those are the bad guys in this hobby, not someone who cuts an egg before an arbitrary day, whether it's 54, 56, 58 or 60.


I agree 100%!

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## rabernet

I cut all my eggs at Day 52, and I have no moral angst about doing so. I've seen at another breeder's location, two perfectly formed babies, that were unable to pip their eggs that drowned in their eggs - and you could see, when their eggs were opened, how they had thrashed about so much, they had ripped all the blood vessels off the top of the egg. 

To me, that seems much more cruel, to allow a baby to panic to death and drown when it's unable to pip its egg. That seems terribly inhumane to me. 

Some might say - they may not have been intended to make it then. And maybe they were intended to make it. Who's to say that something about the artificial incubation process didn't make that egg just a bit too tough for that baby to come out. 

I made a choice that day that I will cut all my eggs on Day 52. Pipped or not. The ONLY time I've pulled a baby out of the egg was when I saw that their umbilicus was twisted around their body. I got them enough out of the egg to untwist, and put them right back in the egg, where they stayed until they absorbed the yolk.

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gp_dragsandballs (08-26-2009),_jglass38_ (08-26-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (08-27-2009)

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## Dalishar

> Okay here is how I feel about the issue.
> Now most breeders on here are stating that they cull severly deformed animals, and all of us pretty much agree that the deformed animal should not be bred. Here is the question...What about the parents, grandparents and siblings of these animals. 
> 
> If as stated before the deformed animal may pass on the trait, that means it aquired the trait in the first place from one or more of it's parents or grandparents, and that it's siblings may also carry the deformed trait hidden away in their genes. So unless you cull the entire line that produced the deformity you are adding possible carriers of deformities on to future generations.


That seems a touch excessive, though, don't you think? Now I agree if it becomes a yearly thing. If the same pair is throwing eyeless, kinked, or otherwise "grossly" deformed babies every season then they should never be paired together again. If one of that pair keeps throwing deformed babies with other snakes, then that snake should be _retired_ from breeding. I'd go so far as to say the retired snake should never be sold; it becomes the breeder's responsibility to keep that snake from ever having the chance of reproducing again. 

Culling an entire line because of _one_ deformed baby doesn't make sense to me. That one baby lost the genetic lottery and happened to get a mash of poor genes, or a complication in the egg, and so ended up with a bad spine (or whatever else). If the parents and all other siblings are healthy then it's obviously not a dominant defect getting thrown around.

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## wilomn

> Culling an entire line because of _one_ deformed baby doesn't make sense to me. That one baby lost the genetic lottery and happened to get a mash of poor genes, or a complication in the egg, and so ended up with a bad spine (or whatever else). If the parents and all other siblings are healthy then it's obviously not a dominant defect getting thrown around.


Hmmm, not a snake but related.

I've been breeding rats on a small scale for years and gearing up for the last several months. I have a very standard policy which I will explain in a moment.

I can reach into any tub of rats I have bare handed, pull pinks, move fuzzies, remove adult by the body or tail and NEVER get bit. 

I don't get bit because of my policy.

IF a rat bites me, it is then food. If it is a mother, her babies are food. Same for a male, bite-food.

Knock on wood, I can't remember the last time I had a rat bite me.

I have heard many tales of rats that bite from people who don't cull the biters.

It bears thought.

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_Beto510_ (08-26-2009),MarkS (08-28-2009),_Mike Cavanaugh_ (08-27-2009)

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## NorthernRegius

I have had prior animal breeding experience in breeding & culling. Holland Lops (which I breed for awhile have an AMAZINGLY high cull rate as the dwarf gene is homozygous lethal). There's an easy solution to reduce the 50% adv cull rate; use bigger does & the small typey bucks. You don't produce as many champs that way, but you do reduce the culls down to about 1 in 4. To have culling be such a normal event is one of the reasons I got out of rabbits.

Working with snakes, proper husbandry results in way less culls. Before I bred snakes I discussed with my herp vet who also keeps snakes & other reptiles, the best way to "put one to sleep" so I'd know. And freezing is the method I use here if need be. 

I do pick my morphs based on what I think I can handle. I pass on T+ Albino projects although I love the morph. But even being selective, you get tangled babies, you get minor defects... and you get freezer pets as Kevin at NERD calls 'em. I've had 3 culls to date, but they all were for the best interests of the animal.

I will not hesitate to cull, I also will give an animal that has the ability to feed/function/defecate a chance. A local friend brought in a spider, a one-eyed snake that also had some kinking- "Can you help her?", he said. 

I told him we could try. After 2 assist-feedings she defecated & peed. She also lost most of the kinking that was from being tangled. After 3 months of assist feeding she began to take FT off tongs on her own. Her name is Alli & she is his daughter's pet. 

I will say Alli was in such bad shape that, had she hatched here, IDK... but helping someone else I did see 1st hand just how resilient these babies can be. It's given me a better idea of what can & can't heal. So if I think an animal has a chance I'll give it- but I won't let something suffer that has no chance either.

It's a tough call, but one as a breeder we all will have to face.

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## wolfy-hound

I think there's two things being discussed.
Culling and Mercy killing.
I will always agree with putting an animal down as a mercy.
Culling for perfection I disagree with.  In other words, if a pastel isn't bright enough, or a albino isn't crisp enough, putting the baby in the freezer I think is wrong.
Culling for defects I can agree with. Especially defects that affect the spine.  I will not say that YOU should cull your defective hatchlings.  But I've culled some here, that would not live(even with special care).
I currantly have some kinked hatchlings.  My miracle clutch was damaged.  The same heat that caused the others to lay slugs, must have affected the 'good clutch' I got too.  Out of 5 eggs, one was a train wreck, and culled immediately.  One had the "stepped on" look on one spot midway.  Two have tail tip kinks, and one looks fine.  Right now I have a call in to the local vet university to see if anyone is interested in a kinked hatchling for study(either the frozen one or the still living one).  If not, I may euthanize the severe one.  The tail tips I'll either keep or give as pets, and the normal looking one MIGHT be sold.. IF he eats for a long time, and develops normally.  But I happen to know there was a severe heat issue that caused other issues with other snakes at the same time.  I don't have to wonder "Is it from mom or dad?"

So.. after I've rambled on.. I do agree with culling, when something's wrong.

Oh.. and normally I cut eggs after one pips.  This clutch took so long that I cut the eggs, at day 61.  The babys still took a week before they had all emerged.  You can't rush them out of the egg, cutting or no.

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_jglass38_ (08-26-2009)

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> i would probably do EVERYTHING in my power to keep my babies alive, bc if YOU yourself put your hard work, dedication, time, and sweat into raising those adults to breed, praying for fertilized eggs, incubating those eggs, monitoring them closely, then awaiting that adorable little BP head to poke its head at you and greet u, rite there, uve gotten attached to the animal and u WILL do wut u need to in order to save it.


Wow, no offense to you personally my friend, but in this quote I think you have pretty much summed up everything I am talking about to a T.

Why would you do whatever you have to in order to "save it?"  Are you the only being in this situation that matters?  hint... you have feelings... you feel pain.. you suffer...  what about the snake?





> It is my first year breeding ball pythons and I'm guessing my issue with my hatchling contributed to your need to post this thread. So I feel I need to respond.


Don't flatter yourself.  Although I must admit, you did remind me of the subject. 




> I believe in giving an animal every chance possible to live.  Doesn't matter if the snake has one eye, no eyes, kinks--whatever.  It's not the snake's fault it's deformed.


Another fine example of what this thread is all about.  Not sure who said it but someone mentioned that natural selection is thrown out the window when snakes are intentionally bred.  Your right... in the scheme of things it is not the snakes fault it's deformed.... it's the breeders fault.  Exactly why it is the breeders responsibility to handle the problem they created. 





> I understand that there can be incubation issues but you can't say that all *8ball* duck bills


Just curious as to why you chose to call out a particular breeder on this....  Keep in mind a many people here know this breeder personally. can you say the same?

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## briz

> Just curious as to why you chose to call out a particular breeder on this....  Keep in mind a many people here know this breeder personally. can you say the same?




I think they were referring to the cinny x black pastel cross and not 8Ball Pythons.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (08-27-2009)

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## AaronP

> Just curious as to why you chose to call out a particular breeder on this....  Keep in mind a many people here know this breeder personally. can you say the same?


Mike, another name for the Super Cinny/Black Pastel is the 8 Ball.




> I think they were referring to the cinny x black pastel cross and not 8Ball Pythons.


See Above.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (08-27-2009)

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## Eventide

> Another fine example of what this thread is all about.  Not sure who said it but someone mentioned that natural selection is thrown out the window when snakes are intentionally bred.  Your right... in the scheme of things it is not the snakes fault it's deformed.... it's the breeders fault.  Exactly why it is the breeders responsibility to handle the problem they created.


Actually, it's not always the breeder's fault.  Random mutations occur with some frequency; it doesn't have to be something passed down from one or both parents.  It could just be that a particular baby lost the gene mutation lottery.

----------


## Meltdown Morphs

> I think there's two things being discussed.
> Culling and Mercy killing.
> I will always agree with putting an animal down as a mercy.
> Culling for perfection I disagree with.  In other words, if a pastel isn't bright enough, or a albino isn't crisp enough, putting the baby in the freezer I think is wrong.
> .


I don't know who in their right mind would cull a perfectly healthy baby  for that reason anyway thats just absurd :Weirdface: .

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## Dalishar

> Hmmm, not a snake but related.
> 
> I've been breeding rats on a small scale for years and gearing up for the last several months. I have a very standard policy which I will explain in a moment.
> 
> I can reach into any tub of rats I have bare handed, pull pinks, move fuzzies, remove adult by the body or tail and NEVER get bit. 
> 
> I don't get bit because of my policy.
> 
> IF a rat bites me, it is then food. If it is a mother, her babies are food. Same for a male, bite-food.
> ...


I'll happily admit to being a touch dense. I _think_ I understand your point, however. 

If we cull anything that has a deformity, then ideally we'll end up with stock with no deformities at all (or in the case of rats, no nippy buggers). So basically a zero tolerance policy. I like it, too - I was fully intending on following something similar when I began breeding rats. 

How do you adapt the same policy to snakes though? 
Hopefully deformed males and females would never be bred to begin with. So if they throw one defective baby, do you kill otherwise perfectly healthy adults? Do you cull the entire clutch? What if it only showed up in a second or third clutch - do you then go after the other babies and destroy them too? Where's the line drawn?

For rats specifically (and I hope this isnt too far off topic) - if a male bites you, do you then destroy ANY babies sired by him? Or only if the mother does? Do you only cull the litters if you're bitten by the mother while they're still pinks / fuzzies? What if they're adults already, and have never shown themselves as aggressive / defensive biters? (wee, can't tell I'm horrendously ignorant about this, can you?)

I think my problem is intention, silly as that sounds. It makes sense to follow such a policy with rats, as they're meant for food for my snakes. I do not want to deal with food that bites / has defects. These snakes, however, are meant to be pets. As much as I hate to contribute to future deformed babies, I would not be willing to go to such extreme lengths with my pets as I would with my pet's food. There goes my rights to the "animal lover" title, right?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I apologize if I come off that way - I find this topic fascinating and would like to learn as much as possible.

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## wolfy-hound

> I don't know who in their right mind would cull a perfectly healthy baby  for that reason anyway thats just absurd.


Dog and cat breeders have been known to do this for generations.  Drowning a perfectly healthy puppy because the coloring isn't proper, etc.  While I don't personally know of a breeder that does it to ball pythons, it's equally possible, since I doubt they'd talk about it.  But I brought it up becuase it's a practice in other species, even though those are more appealing cuddley fuzzy pets(to most public people).

What seems absurb to you might seem to be just plain quality control to them.

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## fishmommy

wow.....I never thought that this was true.  Disgusting if it is.




> Dog and cat breeders have been known to do this for generations.  Drowning a perfectly healthy puppy because the coloring isn't proper, etc.  While I don't personally know of a breeder that does it to ball pythons, it's equally possible, since I doubt they'd talk about it.  But I brought it up becuase it's a practice in other species, even though those are more appealing cuddley fuzzy pets(to most public people).
> 
> What seems absurb to you might seem to be just plain quality control to them.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> I think they were referring to the cinny x black pastel cross and not 8Ball Pythons.


LOL!  thank you for the clarification on that!!!!!  My apologies Kelly!  :Smile: 




> Actually, it's not always the breeder's fault.  Random mutations occur with some frequency; it doesn't have to be something passed down from one or both parents.  It could just be that a particular baby lost the gene mutation lottery.


If you are breeding snakes... you know, choosing who breeds with who and actually forcing them together so they will breed....  it is safe to say that you are the one that created the baby.  You get credit for that baby when it is the coolest new morph ever... you also get credit when it is a total trainwreck that needs to be put down.

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_cinderbird_ (08-28-2009),_fishmommy_ (08-27-2009)

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## wolfy-hound

> wow.....I never thought that this was true.  Disgusting if it is.


Oh yeah! Absolutely true.  Especially mismarked poodles(ones that were parti-colored, despite it being the original color for poodles), mismarked boxers, white patched dobermans.. there used to be practically a list of pups that would be put down at birth if they were mismarked, because it was such a black mark against the sire/dam that they threw mismarked dogs.

Same with kittens, mismarked, or not close enough to show perfection, and they'd put them down.  

Old school mentality was drown it at birth if it wasn't what you wanted.  Unfortunately, it still holds true today, to a lesser and more hidden degree.

Sorry I took it a little off topic.

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## oliverstwist

[QUOTE=wolfy-hound;1144621]Oh yeah! Absolutely true.  Especially mismarked poodles(ones that were parti-colored, despite it being the original color for poodles), mismarked boxers, white patched dobermans.. there used to be practically a list of pups that would be put down at birth if they were mismarked, because it was such a black mark against the sire/dam that they threw mismarked dogs.

Same with kittens, mismarked, or not close enough to show perfection, and they'd put them down.  

Old school mentality was drown it at birth if it wasn't what you wanted.  Unfortunately, it still holds true today, to a lesser and more hidden degree.


australian shepards can be born all white deqaf and blind. A breeder thr3ew one out in the snow at my friends  house instead of being responsible with it so i got her now her 5 years was amnazing but still seriously olets be responsible here (does that relate)

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## kellysballs

To Mike C. I was not "calling out a specific breeder" I was refering to the morph super cinny/super black pastel that is commonly refered to as an 8ball ball python. I was being lazy and not typing out the word eight.

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## kellysballs

Appology accepted Mike. Like I said I am not trying to attack just trying to help with a healthy debate. I have only had one instance of a deformed baby hatching out. I have spoke at length with my vet and two of my biology professors at stetson and the consensus is that it is a genetic defect. 

Now I have taken steps to make sure that it does not happen again (I will not breed those two snakes together again), and I will make sure this baby never enters the breeding gene pool. However I am left with a very difficult dilema, what to do with the siblings and parents. 

Some one stated that the hypothetical deformed baby "just lost the genetic lottery" but what that really means is most likely somewhere along that particular babies lineage one or more of it's parents, gparents...ect, carries the gene for what ever deformity has occured. With out extensive genetic testing there is no way to know. Think about breast cancer in humans, they now have a genetic test that will tell you if you posses the particular gene thought to cause it. 20 years ago this was unheard of. 

I personally will not cull the entire line because they may carry a gene that might cause a deformity (most people do not). How do the rest of you feel about it, breeders or not. If you produced an animal that was deformed would you sell the siblings or parents? Would you allow the siblings to enter the breeding gene pool, either your own or another persons?

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## nixer

> Appology accepted Mike. Like I said I am not trying to attack just trying to help with a healthy debate. I have only had one instance of a deformed baby hatching out. I have spoke at length with my vet and two of my biology professors at stetson and the consensus is that it is a genetic defect. 
> 
> Now I have taken steps to make sure that it does not happen again (I will not breed those two snakes together again), and I will make sure this baby never enters the breeding gene pool. However I am left with a very difficult dilema, what to do with the siblings and parents. 
> 
> Some one stated that the hypothetical deformed baby "just lost the genetic lottery" but what that really means is most likely somewhere along that particular babies lineage one or more of it's parents, gparents...ect, carries the gene for what ever deformity has occured. With out extensive genetic testing there is no way to know. Think about breast cancer in humans, they now have a genetic test that will tell you if you posses the particular gene thought to cause it. 20 years ago this was unheard of. 
> 
> I personally will not cull the entire line because they may carry a gene that might cause a deformity (most people do not). How do the rest of you feel about it, breeders or not. If you produced an animal that was deformed would you sell the siblings or parents? Would you allow the siblings to enter the breeding gene pool, either your own or another persons?


just because you get one or more deformed babies does not mean its genetic it could be just incubation issues or even development issues with the eggs inside the mother

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## Eventide

> Some one stated that the hypothetical deformed baby "just lost the genetic lottery" but what that really means is most likely somewhere along that particular babies lineage one or more of it's parents, gparents...ect, carries the gene for what ever deformity has occured. With out extensive genetic testing there is no way to know. Think about breast cancer in humans, they now have a genetic test that will tell you if you posses the particular gene thought to cause it. 20 years ago this was unheard of.


But not every deformity is genetic, i.e. not every deformity is something that was passed down from the parents.  Some are completely random.  Now, a mutation being "random" does not mean that it cannot be passed down with the offspring (doesn't mean that it can, either).

...and also what Nixer said.   :Smile: 

EDIT:  I will soon have some citations as to why freezing and/or refrigerating reptiles is inhumane and causes the reptiles great suffering.

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_kellysballs_ (08-27-2009),_nixer_ (08-28-2009)

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## BallPythonGeek13

i agree but some people just want all of there babys to live

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## Eventide

Citations, as promised (from my vet tech friend):




> Quotes are from Reptile Medicine and Surgery, D. Mader, second edition, 2006
> 
> For reference the 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association Panel on Euthanasia was a panel formed of the foremost experts on reptile medicine and euthanasia in the country.  If we cant trust them, who do you trust?
> 
> Chapter 33
> 
> The 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Panel on Euthanasia has published several guidelines for euthanasia of reptiles
> 
> Rapid freezing, such as dipping in liquid nitrogen, is approved and effective in animals less than 40 grams.  Larger species may not be rendered unconscious rapidly enough to prevent discomfort.
> ...


It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

Someone said this has been discussed before, and I don't mean for the thread to get too far off topic, but it was brought up.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Yeah, I have to say, the idea that freezing is a humane method of euthanasia for reptiles isn't borne out by any actual science.  Freezing is a painful and relatively slow way to die.  I would never freeze any animal to kill it.

If you have to euthanize a reptile, please do research on it first, and do so humanely.

I see no reason not to try to save hatchlings with minor to moderate deformities.  Most of them will go to a pet home if they can be saved.  Caramels with extremely severe kinks have shown to be viable and live normally, so what looks terrible on the surface may not actually be life-threatening.

These things happen--through chance, through incubator temperature accidents, etc.  When they happen, we're responsible for dealing with the consequences.  I don't think it is right to kill something automatically simply because it is aberrant.  If it proves not to be viable, then yes--but if it can actually live, then why NOT save it?

Now, for the person who said they would not breed the parents of a deformed animal together again...while I can sympathize with the sentiment of not wanting to chance having another animal like that again, in truth, it might be better to do exactly that.  By pairing the same animals again, you will be able to determine whether or not the defective gene DID come from those animals.  If no further deformities arise after several such pairings, you can probably assume the parents are clean.  That's important for their future, and the future of the affected baby's siblings.

I also think it's important for breeders to learn about and recognize the genes that can cause specific deformities, so that carriers CAN be identified.  Now that there is a lineage database available, if people are honest, it may be possible to avoid crossing carriers of these problem genes.  When lineage is tracked, it is not always necessary to eliminate an animal that carries a problem gene from breeding--it just means avoiding breeding it or its offspring to another carrier.  We are a long way off from genetic testing for specific problem genes.  These tests exist for other species (such as cattle), but I don't think there's an economic incentive yet to have them for ball pythons, even if they could be devised.

More openness about genetic problems could arise when more information about them is available--it will no longer be easy for breeders to simply claim ignorance when selling an animal with a possible hidden genetic problem.  The high dollar values involved, and the lack of knowledge about the problem genes, encourages this at the moment.  Hopefully that will not always be the case.

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_Eventide_ (08-28-2009),_kellysballs_ (08-28-2009)

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## Jay_Bunny

> Don't flatter yourself.  Although I must admit, you did remind me of the subject.


Hey, I didn't mean it in a bad way. I'm glad you posted this thread as it makes for a good discussion. I just knew I'd been posting a lot on my little hatchling and several people have been telling me to put him down but I keep trying to save him.

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## wilomn

Citations, as promised (from my vet tech friend):

Quote:
Quotes are from Reptile Medicine and Surgery, D. Mader, second edition, 2006

For reference the 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association Panel on Euthanasia was a panel formed of the foremost experts on reptile medicine and euthanasia in the country. If we can’t trust them, who do you trust?

Chapter 33

“The 2000 American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Panel on Euthanasia has published several guidelines for euthanasia of reptiles”

“Rapid freezing, such as dipping in liquid nitrogen, is approved and effective in animals less than 40 grams. Larger species may not be rendered unconscious rapidly enough to prevent discomfort.”

“Reports have state that placement of a reptile in a conventional freezer is a viable technique for euthanasia (Frye, 1984). Cooper, Ewebank, and Rosenberg (1984) contest that the animals may experience pain as ice crystals form within the tissues and the skin. The AVMA Panel on Euthanasia does not consider this an acceptable or humane method for euthanasia, even if prior cooling is performed.”

American Veterinary Medical Association: 2000 Report of the AVMA panel on Euthanasia, Journal of the Veterinary Medical Association 218(5):669-696, 2001.

Frye FL: Eutahnasia, necropsy techniques and comparative histology of reptiles. In Hoff GL, Frye FL, Jacobson ER, editiors: Diseases of amphibians and reptiles, New York, 1984 Plenum Press.

Cooper JE, Ewebank R, Platt E., et al. Euthanasia of amphibians and reptiles, Potters Bar, England, 1989, Universities Federation for Animal Welfare.
It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.

Someone said this has been discussed before, and I don't mean for the thread to get too far off topic, but it was brought up. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the above is a quote from a previous post that I could not use the quote feature of this site to copy



I'd like to see the law that says it's illegal.

Also, do you see that key word MAY?

That means they don't know for sure.

My guess is that an animal in pain would not sit still, even if it were cold. We've all seen snakes that were far too cold to be healthy moving quite well.

Short of taking a hammer and doing some skull crushing, I'll stick with what I, personally as well as the vet I've been using for many many years, think is a good method for killing those who need to be dead.

I don't know who the vets you quoted are nor do I know their affiliations. For all I know they're petaphiles or work for hsus.

You can ALWAYS find some expert who agrees with your stand, no matter which side of an issue you're on.

I've put animals in the freezer, positioned as comfortably as I can make their final minutes, come back hours later to find them frozen solid in the EXACT same position that I left them in. This says to me that there was no pain involved in the deep cold sleep I put them into.

I HAVE seen snakes writhing in pain. I have NOT seen this in my freezer.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (08-28-2009)

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## monk90222

> I don't know who in their right mind would cull a perfectly healthy baby  for that reason anyway thats just absurd.


I've heard of one breeder (has a bad name in the industry) who puts all normal males in the freezer.

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## Jay_Bunny

That is just horrible. My favorite female is a normal and I have to admit, I have a soft spot for my male normal rescue. (I might keep him)

Normal males may not be part of someone's breeding plans but that is no reason to kill them. That makes me angry and sad.  :Mad:

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## MarkS

Interesting thread, I haven't read the whole thread yet so please excuse me if this has been covered already.  My question is where do you draw the line?

Should I freeze this one?  She seems healthy and active but she's missing an eye.  Eyes on snakes are overrated so it probably shouldn't cause her any problems though I'll never be able to sell her.



Should I have tried to save this one?  It was born alive, had no eyes, a deformed jaw, and quite a bit of kinking and had the belly attached back to itself in a few places.  I snapped some pics and put it in the freezer.  



How about this one?  It's a normal male from one of my dinking around projects.  This guy has some head rub from trying to test the limits of his shoe box.  It'll likely disappear after several sheds, but it's going to make it very difficult to sell even though he eats well and has a great calm yet inquisitive personality.  There are plenty of breeders that will stick healthy normal males in the freezer as a matter of course just because they're harder to sell and you can't make any money off of them so why waste the resources?  



So what do you euthanize?  What are the criteria and who makes the decisions? I'm also very active in the local reptile adoption program through our herp society.  We have ball pythons coming in every month, and fortunately we've been able to find homes for all of them, but there are other species like green iguanas and Burmese pythons where we HAVE had to put down some individuals because we were not able to place them after many months.  I can foresee a time where that may become necessary for ball pythons too.

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## wilomn

If it's my opinion you'd be interested in hearing, this is it.

You're doing fine. I would most likely have done the same. Some of your questions are identical to mine.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

> I don't know who the vets you quoted are nor do I know their affiliations. For all I know they're petaphiles or work for hsus.


LMAo!  Wes it is so fun reading your replies!!!!  thanks for chiming in.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

Mark my answer to your questions in my opinion.

The second one that is all jacked up... i would defiantely have put that one down because it obviously would never live a normal happy life. 

The third one with the head sore.  I would definately NOT put that one down.  There is nothing wrong with that snake other then a little skin blemish.  It will no doubt live and function like a normal BP its entire life.  If you don't want it, it shouldn't be hard to find someone that will come take him from you for free. 

The first one with the missing eye.  That is a tricky one, and in a situation like that it should be up to the breeder and the breeders lifetime plan for the snake.  

That said if it were mine, It would have been frozen...  Not so much because of it being an ugly snake, but because I would always suspect possible other damage and / or discomfort.   This is what i would think - what if that missing eye is because of an overall skull deformation?  It wouldnt be too far stretched to consider the fact that something like that can cause pressure in the snakes head that is out of the ordinary.  That pressure can certainly cause discomfort.  What if every day of that snakes life it has HORRIBLE headaches as result?  As long as it keeps eating, you would never know if it were suffering or not.  That uncertainty for me would be enough reason to freeze.


And for those that think freezing is so inhumane... PLEASE share what in your opinion would be a MORE humane way of putting a hatchling down?

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## Simpson Balls

> I've heard of one breeder (has a bad name in the industry) who puts all normal males in the freezer.


That breeder suck! You know there people out there that love snakes but can't afford a expensive morph and what something cheap like a Norm ball. Does this breeder not understand that if he does nt want them he can just sell them for 20 each and make a bit of money there? Wow if I could I would want to smack the breeder silly! Haha

Daniel

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## wilomn

> That breeder suck! You know there people out there that love snakes but can't afford a expensive morph and what something cheap like a Norm ball. Does this breeder not understand that if he does nt want them he can just sell them for 20 each and make a bit of money there? Wow if I could I would want to smack the breeder silly! Haha
> 
> Daniel


How old are you?

I ask because if you are young, then your stupidity is understandable.

If you're old enough to know better, then either you have no knowledge of business or you are simply happy in your ignorance and should be treated accordingly.

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## Simpson Balls

15??? All I am saying is there are people who will take Male Norms. There is not need to freeze them unless you are a huge breeder.

Daniel

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## Turbo Serpent

> 15??? All I am saying is there are people who will take Male Norms. There is not need to freeze them unless you are a huge breeder.
> 
> Daniel


This also explains your significant lies about breeding and such when you first joined the site, as "Ball Python Expert"  :sploosh:

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## ladywhipple02

[QUOTE=Mike Cavanaugh;1145647] That pressure can certainly cause discomfort.  What if every day of that snakes life it has HORRIBLE headaches as result?  As long as it keeps eating, you would never know if it were suffering or not.  That uncertainty for me would be enough reason to freeze.
[QUOTE]


Isn't saying a snake can have a headache kinda the same thing as saying that animal can be a sweetheart? Do we even know if these animals have the capacity to have headaches? Seems like a bit of anthropomorphizing to me....  :Smile:  

If we get a perfectly normal BP, but he's not eating, are we to assume that the temp in his enclosure is off? That he may be stressed by his surroundings? Or that he has internal damage? 

Fact is, we judge a lot of what we do based on how our animals are eating. If they are eating, it's a good sign and means all your temps are correct, he's not stressed, etc. Can't we assume the same in a snake that doesn't have an eye? 

Guess that's my judgement  :Embarassed:

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## Wh00h0069

All the people making accusations about breeders freezing their healthy normal males, who are the breeders? Can you substantiate your claims? From what I understand most big breeders sell them to pet stores.

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## NorthernRegius

The first thing I looked for_ PRIOR_ to breeding was buyers for the babies- Especially the normals. I'd no sooner put down a Healthy animal than shoot my foot! IMHO that's not the way to do things- I've always seen the higher cost we pay for "fancy snakes" aka morphs as a way to cover the overhead of producing normals. It's also why I think many of the base morph snakes produced today are sold way too cheaply.

Most on my normals are sold at wholesale to my local shop here after their 3rd meal. I'm lucky to break even on normals... if you don't count the time involved. But they are great snakes, well started on rats & my buyer will take anything he can get from me because the animals do well. I have him give out a NorthernRegius Key Chain with each snake & a care-sheet, so if the buyer has questions or is looking for morphs they'll see the care I put into all my babies. We may put a price-tag on the paint-jobs but _life is life_. Killing a perfectly healthy animal?!! Not in my little corner of the world!

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Tek48 (08-28-2009)

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## WingedWolfPsion

I do understand why some people would want to believe that freezing is humane--it's inconvenient to believe otherwise.
I'll go out on a limb and point out that instantaneous destruction of the brain actually is humane, though never approved by any veterinary standard, because it is perceived as being brutal (I've never understood that one--cattle are bolted through the brain to kill them for slaughter, after all).  

There are euthanasia drugs approved for use in reptiles, now, though.  If someone has to put down an animal, and they truly want to be humane, they should probably not freeze it to death.  Even the chance that this method is painful should be enough to make a person seek one of the several alternative methods that are known to not be painful.  The way it's always been done is not always the right way...or even usually the right way.  Look how far we've come with reptile care in the past few decades.

As for normal males, that is part of the operating expenses of being a breeder.  There are always people who want a nice pet python.  Some of mine go to a local pet store, and some are sold directly.  Down the road, I will probably find either more pet stores or a wholesaler to sell them to.  I do have high standards, though, and I will be sniffing them out thoroughly before I let my babies go there.  If that means keeping and feeding normal males for a while before I find buyers, well, that's a few more rats, and morph prices can easily absorb the costs of that.  Someone whose ONLY interest is the bottom line should not be allowed to own animals at all, in my opinion.

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_Eventide_ (08-28-2009)

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## jglass38

> I've heard of one breeder (has a bad name in the industry) who puts all normal males in the freezer.


You've heard of that person also??  Weird!

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_monk90222_ (08-28-2009)

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## jglass38

> All the people making accusations about breeders freezing their healthy normal males, who are the breeders? Can you substantiate your claims? From what I understand most big breeders sell them to pet stores.


Eddie:  It's not necessary for anyone to disclose who the person is.  All I will say is that the person isn't a "big breeder" and already has a suspect rep.  To disclose the name would do nothing but open people up to legal trouble.

----------


## jglass38

> I do understand why some people would want to believe that freezing is humane--it's inconvenient to believe otherwise.
> I'll go out on a limb and point out that instantaneous destruction of the brain actually is humane, though never approved by any veterinary standard, because it is perceived as being brutal (I've never understood that one--cattle are bolted through the brain to kill them for slaughter, after all).  
> 
> There are euthanasia drugs approved for use in reptiles, now, though.  If someone has to put down an animal, and they truly want to be humane, they should probably not freeze it to death.  Even the chance that this method is painful should be enough to make a person seek one of the several alternative methods that are known to not be painful.  The way it's always been done is not always the right way...or even usually the right way.  Look how far we've come with reptile care in the past few decades.
> 
> As for normal males, that is part of the operating expenses of being a breeder.  There are always people who want a nice pet python.  Some of mine go to a local pet store, and some are sold directly.  Down the road, I will probably find either more pet stores or a wholesaler to sell them to.  I do have high standards, though, and I will be sniffing them out thoroughly before I let my babies go there.  If that means keeping and feeding normal males for a while before I find buyers, well, that's a few more rats, and morph prices can easily absorb the costs of that.  Someone whose ONLY interest is the bottom line should not be allowed to own animals at all, in my opinion.


Just to play devil's advocate here, it seems that you may not be existing in the same real world that others inhabit.  While it may be affordable for you to take the one baby you produce every year (if that) that needs to be culled to a vet for "humane" euthanasia, it wouldn't be affordable for the intermediate breeders who do 70 clutches and produce 7  babies that need to be culled or the big breeder who does 500 clutches and produces 50 babies that need to be culled.  Now I am clearly just pulling numbers out of my butt, but I think the logic is there.

I am not saying I disagree with all of your post, just playing devil's advocate as I tend to do.

Wes made some good points (yes, the snowball fight in hell is on for this weekend!).  First, there are two sides to every argument.  Whether in science, politics or at the office water cooler.  Who do we believe?  Second, he stated that he has put animals with full range of movement in a freezer and they were in the same position when he looked at them after they were dead.  One would think that an animal in pain would writhe around and change positions, not lay there quietly.  How do we explain that?

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_mooingtricycle_ (08-31-2009)

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## Muze

> Interesting thread, I haven't read the whole thread yet so please excuse me if this has been covered already.  My question is where do you draw the line?
> 
> Should I freeze this one?  She seems healthy and active but she's missing an eye.  Eyes on snakes are overrated so it probably shouldn't cause her any problems though I'll never be able to sell her.
> 
> 
> 
> Should I have tried to save this one?  It was born alive, had no eyes, a deformed jaw, and quite a bit of kinking and had the belly attached back to itself in a few places.  I snapped some pics and put it in the freezer.  
> 
> 
> ...


I'll keep it simple:

Would not euthanize the one with the missing eye.
Actually have euthanized one with very similar deformities to the one you had to put down.
I sell my males to the local reptile store (they are friends of mine that care very much about their animals).  However, I adopted a male from a member here because I wanted to buy his rack system but he needed to move very soon so I agreed to take the BP.  He will most probably always be with me because I have grown attached to him and it's hard to find good home for adult males.  
I am thoroughly disgusted about the rumor that some breeder(s) place males in the freezer (makes no sense to me really).  
If it is obviously going to suffer (not be able to eat, move, etc.) it needs to be put down.  But sometimes it's not so obvious and deserves a chance.  I say one has to use logic, common sense, and heart to make these decisions.

----------


## MarkS

> Mark my answer to your questions in my opinion.
> 
> The second one that is all jacked up... i would defiantely have put that one down because it obviously would never live a normal happy life. 
> 
> The third one with the head sore.  I would definately NOT put that one down.  There is nothing wrong with that snake other then a little skin blemish.  It will no doubt live and function like a normal BP its entire life.  If you don't want it, it shouldn't be hard to find someone that will come take him from you for free. 
> 
> The first one with the missing eye.  That is a tricky one, and in a situation like that it should be up to the breeder and the breeders lifetime plan for the snake.  
> 
> That said if it were mine, It would have been frozen...  Not so much because of it being an ugly snake, but because I would always suspect possible other damage and / or discomfort.   This is what i would think - what if that missing eye is because of an overall skull deformation?  It wouldnt be too far stretched to consider the fact that something like that can cause pressure in the snakes head that is out of the ordinary.  That pressure can certainly cause discomfort.  What if every day of that snakes life it has HORRIBLE headaches as result?  As long as it keeps eating, you would never know if it were suffering or not.  That uncertainty for me would be enough reason to freeze.
> ...


That 1st one I do plan on keeping around for a while. She certainly doesn't appear to be in any pain.  She's a new hatchling and is just going through her first shed now so I'll see how she eats afterward and make a determination at that time.  She's already got a name though so I'll probably keep her and use her in educational shows. 

The third one I don't plan on killing either, though over the years I've been getting more and more leery of the 'free' option.   It's sad but often true that many people seem to equate 'cost' with 'value' so therefore a free snake has less value to them then one that they may have spent a lot of money on and so may receive lesser quality care.  I've given away quite a few free snakes through the years and it does seem to me that when I inquire about them later that the free ones seem to have a higher mortality rate then the ones people have paid for.  

The second one was never a question in my mind.  I couldn't get him in the freezer fast enough, it was almost painful watching him trying to move. And yes, I do believe that freezing is a viable and humane option for euthanasia.  Maybe not for warm blooded creatures, but for cold blooded creatures I have no problem with it.

----------


## Eventide

> Also, do you see that key word MAY?
> 
> That means they don't know for sure.


Indeed it does.

Particulate substrate _may_ cause impactions and eye infections.  Pine bedding _may_ be unhealthy for your snake.  Hot rocks or under-tank heaters _may_ overheat and burn your snake.  And yet, if anyone here were to house their reptile on particulate substrate with a hot rock, they'd be verbally smacked up one side and down the other.  Why is this particular "may" different?




> My guess is that an animal in pain would not sit still, even if it were cold. We've all seen snakes that were far too cold to be healthy moving quite well.


You don't like "may" suffer, but you'd rather go with "my guess" than experts in reptile medicine?

Ever tried to type when your hands are cold?  Kinda hard to move them, isn't it?  And we're mammals--we create our own body heat!  What about an animal whose body temperature is basically a slave to environmental temperature?  Do you seriously think that not moving = no brain function?  Try putting one of your snakes in a 40- or 50-degree room and see how much the snake moves.  Do you think that the snake isn't feeling discomfort?

What about the time it takes for the snake to reach freezing?  Ever put a bottle of water in the freezer?  It takes a long time for it to freeze solid.  What about the time it takes for the cold to actually kill the snake?  This isn't some instantaneous thing like liquid nitrogen!

I'd like to see a cold snake moving well.  Dig up a rattlesnake during the winter here.  Let me tell you, they can barely move.  (Note that the winter temperatures here rarely go below zero.)




> I don't know who the vets you quoted are nor do I know their affiliations. For all I know they're petaphiles or work for hsus.


Actually, their names are right there.  That's the awesome thing about citations:  you can go look them up for yourself and find their credentials.




> You can ALWAYS find some expert who agrees with your stand, no matter which side of an issue you're on.


How many experts agreeing does it take, then?




> I've put animals in the freezer, positioned as comfortably as I can make their final minutes, come back hours later to find them frozen solid in the EXACT same position that I left them in. This says to me that there was no pain involved in the deep cold sleep I put them into.
> 
> I HAVE seen snakes writhing in pain. I have NOT seen this in my freezer.


Again, see my notes above.  Not moving does not equal not in pain.  Not moving does not equal not suffering.  Your argument makes no logical sense.

---

I've read others' arguments here--similar ones, I might add--arguing for freezing and arguing that having to take an animal to a vet to have it put down gets expensive.  Quite frankly, that is a terrible excuse.  You'd rather make your pets suffer (or possibly make your pets suffer) just because it's easier and cheaper for you?  Why is this okay, but putting multiple snakes in the same enclosure because it's cheaper for you bad?  Or why is this okay, but trying to treat a severe medical problem yourself without vet help because it's cheaper a terrible thing to do?  Don't we all say many, many times that people should not be in the hobby if they don't first and foremost care for the animals?

I'm sorry, but no matter how many animals I have to put down, I'm taking them to my vet for proper euthanization.  That's part of the cost of breeding reptiles, just like bedding, housing, heat, food, etc., and I will _absolutely not_ cut corners on care just because it's cheaper or easier for me.

----------

_kellysballs_ (08-28-2009),_ladywhipple02_ (08-28-2009)

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## wilomn

> 15??? All I am saying is there are people who will take Male Norms. There is not need to freeze them unless you are a huge breeder.
> 
> Daniel


AH HA!!!
I am sooo bad with names. I knew you irritated me from somewhere.

I'll just leave you be.




> I'm sorry


Apology accepted but there is still no excuse for your condemnation of those who DARE to think and do other than as you approve.

What, exactly, makes you better?

----------


## Aleria

I still haven't seen exactly what is considered "proper" euthanasia for snakes. I believe I saw mention of a new medication based euthanasia, but if that's the case and it's new, I'd assume that means it's not the same thing they use on dogs or cats, which would lead me to believe that you're most likely only going to find that option at a herp specific vet.

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## Eventide

> Apology accepted but there is still no excuse for your condemnation of those who DARE to think and do other than as you approve.
> 
> What, exactly, makes you better?


Condemnation?  You think I'm condemning people?  You think I'm arguing because I think I'm somehow above y'all?  Seriously?

I'm arguing for the health and well-being of these wonderful creatures called reptiles.  I'm trying to get people to think logically and critically.  I'm trying to get people to stop thinking about only what's best for themselves.

I guess if that makes me look like I think I'm better than others, then so be it.

----------


## MarkS

> All the people making accusations about breeders freezing their healthy normal males, who are the breeders? Can you substantiate your claims? From what I understand most big breeders sell them to pet stores.


There are probably more people who do this then is realized.  I've been told in confidence by people who do this, and no I'm not going to 'prove it' because I don't go around betraying confidences.  It's not something I would personally do, but I also don't believe that I have a right to make demands on how other people handle their animals.  As long as it's a 'humane' euthanasia, whatever their reasons for doing so, are THEIR reasons.

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_monk90222_ (08-28-2009)

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## wolfy-hound

Having worked next to a couple vets, and talked to several vets and several vet techs.. the whole "drug euthanisia" for reptiles SUCKS.  The animal takes forever to actually die.  I've been told of firsthand accounts of tortoises and boas and pythons all taking long long hours to die, and since the heart just refused to stop beating, they eventually PUT IT IN THE FREEZER.

If a vet who is supposed to know how to do it best, tells me he/she puts the animal in the freezer becuase it's quicker and more humane, and like Wes said, the animals do not move around trying to escape, then I'll go with that idea.

Just because you spend more money to kill the animal doesn't mean that it's less painful.  If you REALLY wanted to make a instantaneous death, you would brain the animal with a small(or large) sledgehammer, to cause instant brain disfunction.  Brutal? Yes.  But it's definitely the fastest death, and thus by timing, the least painful.

We can't tell really when a reptile is still feeling pain, or uncomfortable, or has a headache.  (I also don't think saying the snake has a headache is anthromorpizing it, it's saying the snake had pain in it's head, not that it's sad).  Reptiles don't show us much.

And as far as the "I heard.." unless the person told you "I do XXX" please discount it as typical rumor-mongering.  

Every person who breeds snakes has to make their own decisions.  Unless you personally have had a deformed baby hatch, then you'll have a very hard time saying what you yourself will or will not do.  I used to say "I'd give it every chance", but when you look at a deformed baby who obviously will never be 'right', you have to make the decision right then about what you see in front of you, not as a theory.

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_Mike Cavanaugh_ (08-30-2009)

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## Aleria

> Having worked next to a couple vets, and talked to several vets and several vet techs.. the whole "drug euthanisia" for reptiles SUCKS.  The animal takes forever to actually die.  I've been told of firsthand accounts of tortoises and boas and pythons all taking long long hours to die, and since the heart just refused to stop beating, they eventually PUT IT IN THE FREEZER.
> 
> If a vet who is supposed to know how to do it best, tells me he/she puts the animal in the freezer becuase it's quicker and more humane, and like Wes said, the animals do not move around trying to escape, then I'll go with that idea.
> 
> Just because you spend more money to kill the animal doesn't mean that it's less painful.  If you REALLY wanted to make a instantaneous death, you would brain the animal with a small(or large) sledgehammer, to cause instant brain disfunction.  Brutal? Yes.  But it's definitely the fastest death, and thus by timing, the least painful.
> 
> We can't tell really when a reptile is still feeling pain, or uncomfortable, or has a headache.  (I also don't think saying the snake has a headache is anthromorpizing it, it's saying the snake had pain in it's head, not that it's sad).  Reptiles don't show us much.


Now this I can understand. Considering it takes reptiles much longer to metabolize things than humans or other mammals then it would make sense that just injecting them with some drug to euthanize them could result in a very slow death, or not even complete death at all due to it taking so long for it to metabolize in their bloodstream.

I think too many people are thinking about how freezing affects humans or other warm blooded animals rather than how it would actually affect a cold blooded creature. Yes it takes humans quite a while to freeze to death and is very painful, but we also have a body that tries to fight the cold and keep us warm, reptiles don't. The extreme cold will kill them far faster than it would us, so I would tend to believe their systems would shut down long before they start suffering in pain.

I also agree that thinking a snake can't have a headache because it's not as smart as a human is kind of... well... stupid. Pain is pain no matter what type of living creature is feeling it, and a headache is a physical reaction, not an emotional one, so intelligence of the creature really would have no bearing on the matter. (thus not anthropomorphizing it)

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## wilomn

> It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia.


Upon what, specifically, is this statement based?

----------


## jglass38

I wanted to quickly address the medical euthanasia aspect.  Yes it exists.  I had a Brazilian Rainbow Boa that I rescued and over a few years it never did get better.  Turns out it had been starved for a long time and kept without water.  It was tested for everything possible, all negative.  In the end, the conclusion was that it suffered from irreversible kidney damage from the neglect.  Whether this is true or not, it just wasn't getting better.  I took it to the vet and had it medically euthanized.  I was there when it was given the injection and held it until it died in less than 2 minutes.  The vet checked for a heartbeat to insure it wasn't still alive.  So yes, it is possible.

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## Chocolate1

Originally Posted by Eventide  


It is against the law for vets to use freezing (other than liquid nitrogen as mentioned above) as a method for euthanasia. 




> Upon what, specifically, is this statement based?


It may not be against the law for a veterinarian to perform a reptile euthanasia via freezing, however, since the American Veterinary Medical Association has determined that it is inhumane to do so, there could be consequences for a veterinarian doing so.  If they were reported, they may be called before a board and reprimanded.  Repeat violations could jeopardize their license.

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_Eventide_ (08-28-2009)

----------


## Chocolate1

> Having worked next to a couple vets, and talked to several vets and several vet techs.. the whole "drug euthanisia" for reptiles SUCKS.  The animal takes forever to actually die.  I've been told of firsthand accounts of tortoises and boas and pythons all taking long long hours to die, and since the heart just refused to stop beating, they eventually PUT IT IN THE FREEZER.
> 
> If a vet who is supposed to know how to do it best, tells me he/she puts the animal in the freezer becuase it's quicker and more humane, and like Wes said, the animals do not move around trying to escape, then I'll go with that idea.
> 
> Just because you spend more money to kill the animal doesn't mean that it's less painful.  If you REALLY wanted to make a instantaneous death, you would brain the animal with a small(or large) sledgehammer, to cause instant brain disfunction.  Brutal? Yes.  But it's definitely the fastest death, and thus by timing, the least painful.
> 
> We can't tell really when a reptile is still feeling pain, or uncomfortable, or has a headache.  (I also don't think saying the snake has a headache is anthromorpizing it, it's saying the snake had pain in it's head, not that it's sad).  Reptiles don't show us much.
> 
> And as far as the "I heard.." unless the person told you "I do XXX" please discount it as typical rumor-mongering.  
> ...


I think we should keep in mind that it is not just the TIME it takes for a reptile to die, but the sensory experience as well.  While a euthanasia performed by a veterinarian may take longer, the drugs used do not create pain in the animal; indeed, the do the opposite, they are powerful analgesics.  So, if a veterinarian gives a lethal injection of a drug with the intent of euthanasia, analgesia will take place before death.  This means that the animal will not experience pain, but will slowly lose consciousness, followed by the cessation of heart function and brain function.  The route of the injection will determine how long this process takes.  If it is directly in the blood stream it is quicker than if it is in the body cavity or liver, for example.  

Freezing may be quicker in some cases, but there is no analgesia involved.  The types of tissues most affected by cooler temperature are the cells involved in muscle function, not nervous function.  So while the reptile may not be able to move, there is still neurological function, and having your tissues freeze is certainly painful.  Even at very low temperatures reptile species retain consciousness.  Indeed, there have been many scientific studies conducted on pain and function at low temperatures. 

Again, I emphasize that there have been scientific studies conducted on reptile pain.  And yes, we do know things about what reptiles feel and whether it is painful.  Many people do research on this kind of stuff for a living.

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_Eventide_ (08-28-2009)

----------


## Eventide

Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994:  http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

AVMA Guidelines for Euthanasia (freezing is discussed on page 21):  http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf

Duke University:  http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sia_agents.htm

UC Berkeley:  http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/assets/...euthanasia.pdf

http://www.mtsu.edu/iacuc/documents/...Guidelines.doc

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## wilomn

> Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994:  http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html
> 
> AVMA Guidelines for Euthanasia (freezing is discussed on page 21):  http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf
> 
> Duke University:  http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sia_agents.htm
> 
> UC Berkeley:  http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/assets/...euthanasia.pdf
> 
> http://www.mtsu.edu/iacuc/documents/...Guidelines.doc


So, there is no law.

Which makes you a liar.

Since you will lie so freely, I choose view ALL that you post with a high degree of  suspicion.

----------


## wilomn

> I think we should keep in mind that it is not just the TIME it takes for a reptile to die, but the sensory experience as well.  While a euthanasia performed by a veterinarian may take longer, the drugs used do not create pain in the animal; indeed, the do the opposite, they are powerful analgesics.  So, if a veterinarian gives a lethal injection of a drug with the intent of euthanasia, analgesia will take place before death.  This means that the animal will not experience pain, but will slowly lose consciousness, followed by the cessation of heart function and brain function.  The route of the injection will determine how long this process takes.  If it is directly in the blood stream it is quicker than if it is in the body cavity or liver, for example.  
> 
> Freezing may be quicker in some cases, but there is no analgesia involved.  The types of tissues most affected by cooler temperature are the cells involved in muscle function, not nervous function.  So while the reptile may not be able to move, there is still neurological function, and having your tissues freeze is certainly painful.  Even at very low temperatures reptile species retain consciousness.  Indeed, there have been many scientific studies conducted on pain and function at low temperatures. 
> 
> Again, I emphasize that there have been scientific studies conducted on reptile pain.  And yes, we do know things about what reptiles feel and whether it is painful.  Many people do research on this kind of stuff for a living.


You know, for a fact, that anesthesia is used prior to lethal injection? I'm curious about these studies you quote as well.

Or perhaps you are saying that the injection intended to kill the snake is somehow going to numb the reptile prior to it's dying but post injection?

You're using awfully big words and I'm not familiar with all of them. Please clarify.

----------


## Eventide

> So, there is no law.
> 
> Which makes you a liar.
> 
> Since you will lie so freely, I choose view ALL that you post with a high degree of  suspicion.


I do not intentionally lie, thank you very much.  I also find it fascinating that instead of arguing logically with my comments and the sources I cited, you prefer, instead, to personally attack me and take the easy route and just dismiss me without any shred of evidence that what I have been saying about freezing is wrong.  Way to go.

My friend stated the "against the law" comment.  I will ask her for additional citations.

----------


## wilomn

> i do not intentionally lie, thank you very much.  I also find it fascinating that instead of arguing logically with my comments and the sources i cited, you prefer, instead, to personally attack me and take the easy route and just dismiss me without any shred of evidence that what i have been saying about freezing is wrong.  Way to go.
> 
> My friend stated the "against the law" comment.  I will ask her for additional citations.


lol

----------


## accidental777

I just had the unpleasant experience of having a pet euthanized about two years ago. Actually for the same reason this thread originally started. A breeder sold Buster (springer spaniel) after beating him severely or knowing that he was born with a neurological problem. 
Buster was dumped by his previous owners, my family and I made an attempt to take him in as a family pet. Buster was a fearful animal, fearful of men, his water/food bowl, leafs, everything. Towards the end, he had bitten my brother twice, unprovoked. We decided, that after a year of hard work that it would be best to have him put down. 
He was taken to our vet where he was first given a sedative. The sedative made him start to have convulsions (proof of brain trauma, or genetic malfunction). Then, the "lethal" injection was given. 
In the end we made the right decision. Clearly, this animal (through abuse or otherwise) was finally put out of his misery. I actually feel a lot of guilt because I tried for so long to  help him. He lived a very unpleasant life, even after provided with a good home.

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## wilomn

> I just had the unpleasant experience of having a pet euthanized about two years ago. Actually for the same reason this thread originally started. A breeder sold Buster (springer spaniel) after beating him severely or knowing that he was born with a neurological problem. 
> Buster was dumped by his previous owners, my family and I made an attempt to take him in as a family pet. Buster was a fearful animal, fearful of men, his water/food bowl, leafs, everything. Towards the end, he had bitten my brother twice, unprovoked. We decided, that after a year of hard work that it would be best to have him put down. 
> He was taken to our vet where he was first given a sedative. The sedative made him start to have convulsions (proof of brain trauma, or genetic malfunction). Then, the "lethal" injection was given. 
> In the end we made the right decision. Clearly, this animal (through abuse or otherwise) was finally put out of his misery. I actually feel a lot of guilt because I tried for so long to  help him. He lived a very unpleasant life, even after provided with a good home.


This goes far towards being a Good Person. You did it for the dog and suffered throughout, but did it anyway.

----------


## wilomn

> Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994:  http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html
> 
> AVMA Guidelines for Euthanasia (freezing is discussed on page 21):  http://www.avma.org/resources/euthanasia.pdf
> 
> Duke University:  http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sia_agents.htm
> 
> UC Berkeley:  http://www.acuc.berkeley.edu/assets/...euthanasia.pdf
> 
> http://www.mtsu.edu/iacuc/documents/...Guidelines.doc


I'm going to guess that your friend gave you these as well.

Do you favor parrots, by chance?

----------


## Serpent_Nirvana

> You know, for a fact, that anesthesia is used prior to lethal injection? I'm curious about these studies you quote as well.
> 
> Or perhaps you are saying that the injection intended to kill the snake is somehow going to numb the reptile prior to it's dying but post injection?
> 
> You're using awfully big words and I'm not familiar with all of them. Please clarify.


I have no idea whether anesthesia is used for lethal injection in human beings.

I can tell you than in animal euthanasia, the animal is put under general anesthesia prior to intracardiac injection. If someone was sticking a giant needle directly into your heart, you wouldn't want to be conscious for it, either.

Mader et. al. states that RAPID freezing (being dipped in liquid nitrogen) is considered an acceptable method of euthanasia for small reptiles (<40 grams). Larger animals may feel pain with this method, so it is not suggested for larger reptiles.

The one author states that freezing in a conventional freezer is an unacceptable method due to the potential for painful formation of ice crystals in the muscle tissue. 

I agree that freezing a larger animal would be inhumane due to the fact that the body would take so long to freeze, the animal would most likely experience a long and uncomfortable death. For a smaller animal, I really wonder if the nerves are still capable of firing by the time ice crystals are forming. 

I do agree strongly that it is better to cull deformed babies rather than attempting to nurse them through life. Even if they are capable of living a perfectly normal life (such as one-eyed or no-eyed snakes), selling it as a "pet" may be a great way to perpetuate the trait if the animal later falls into the hands of unscrupulous breeders. The only way to ensure that the trait isn't passed on is to keep it or cull it. Even the best-intentioned pet owner may have a change of life plans, especially with an animal that lives 20+ years, and you never know who might end up with it.

----------


## wilomn

> I have no idea whether anesthesia is used for lethal injection in human beings.
> 
> I can tell you than in animal euthanasia, the animal is put under general anesthesia prior to intracardiac injection. If someone was sticking a giant needle directly into your heart, you wouldn't want to be conscious for it, either.
> 
> Mader et. al. states that RAPID freezing (being dipped in liquid nitrogen) is considered an acceptable method of euthanasia for small reptiles (<40 grams). Larger animals may feel pain with this method, so it is not suggested for larger reptiles.
> 
> The one author states that freezing in a conventional freezer is an unacceptable method due to the potential for painful formation of ice crystals in the muscle tissue. 
> 
> I agree that freezing a larger animal would be inhumane due to the fact that the body would take so long to freeze, the animal would most likely experience a long and uncomfortable death. For a smaller animal, I really wonder if the nerves are still capable of firing by the time ice crystals are forming. 
> ...


So far, I believe, this is the first mention of intracardial injection.

As such, either a further clarification by previous experts, er rumor mongers, is necessary, or this thread is just going to spiral on and on, with no one actually knowing what anyone else is talking about.

I have assumed that we have been discussing injection of lethal drugs into a vein or artery, not directly into the heart. For that I am unaware of any anesthesia prior to injecting in reptiles. I am not considering anything but reptiles in this thread.

----------


## Chocolate1

> You know, for a fact, that anesthesia is used prior to lethal injection? I'm curious about these studies you quote as well.
> 
> Or perhaps you are saying that the injection intended to kill the snake is somehow going to numb the reptile prior to it's dying but post injection?
> 
> You're using awfully big words and I'm not familiar with all of them. Please clarify.


I would be happy to clarify.  In lay terms, analgesic drugs prevent pain responses from reaching the brain.  That is why you don't feel pain during surgery, or if you take a mild analgesic, it decreases your pain.  When a vet euthanizes an animal, they can give them an OVERDOSE of an analgesic.  Or, they give them an analgesic prior to another drug that causes death.  The same types of drugs used to euthanize animals via overdose are used in lesser doses to treat pain, or do surgery.   Freezing, decapitating, and pithing are all acceptable methods of euthanasia ONLY IF an analgesic (or anesthetic) is given before hand because these all cause pain.  The animal should be at a surgical plane of anesthesia for any of these methods.  Many reptile veterinarians use a pentobarbital drug that the inject directly in the heart for euthanasia.  However, before they do it, they usually use an gas anesthetic, like isoflurane, or another sedative to render the animal unconcious.  The usually use an intracardiac injection because reptile veins are relatively difficult to hit as contrasted with mammals.   There are many variations on this theme though, and each veterinarian will have their preference.  However, there are always first be analgesia or anesthesia, and then if first isnt an overdose that results in death,  and if the animal is at a surgical plane of anesthesia, then they must perform a second step.  This can be freezing, pithing, decapitating, pentobarbital intracardiacally, etc, again, as long as the animal is unconcious.  And, just to be clear, cooling an animal in a refridgerator does not quailfy as sufficient anesthetic to then freeze them.  A cooled down animal can still feel pain.

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## Eventide

> I'm going to guess that your friend gave you these as well.
> 
> Do you favor parrots, by chance?


Um, actually, no.  I did a little thing that I like to call _research_.  Have you actually read any of the many citations I've posted in this thread, or do you prefer to remain in ignorance so you can insult those who disagree with you?

Also, as to the against the law thing, I will put it in Philosophy 101 terms for you.

Premise 1:  The AMVA says that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is inhumane.

Premise 2:  "Inhumane" is another way of saying "cruel."

Premise 3:  Animal cruelty is against the law and punishable by the law.

Conclusion:  Freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is against the law.

Ta da.

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## WingedWolfPsion

Again--if there is a question about whether or not a method of euthanasia is painless, don't use it.  The entire point is to put the animal out of its misery, not to create more of it.

I won't even dignify the idea that a larger breeder can't afford to have a vet euthanize deformed hatchlings.  If they can't afford that, can they also not afford vet care for their normal females?  I've heard of this, too.  They shouldn't be in business at all if their priorities lie in that direction.  If they can't afford to care for all of their animals properly, their animals should be legally seized.  That is the way it works when people keep animals but refuse proper care for them.

But the bottom line is that the animals shouldn't be suffering.  If you have to euthanize them yourself, then have the decency to hit them over the head with a rubber mallet.  Don't freeze them.
At least the rubber mallet definitely isn't cruel, provided you use a proper amount of force.  Either method is legally questionable, so you might as well use the painless method.  If you don't have the cajones to do that, then take them to the vet.

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_Eventide_ (08-28-2009)

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## HeartAche

> Um, actually, no.  I did a little thing that I like to call _research_.  Have you actually read any of the many citations I've posted in this thread, or do you prefer to remain in ignorance so you can insult those who disagree with you?
> 
> Also, as to the against the law thing, I will put it in Philosophy 101 terms for you.
> 
> Premise 1:  The AMVA says that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is inhumane.
> 
> Premise 2:  "Inhumane" is another way of saying "cruel."
> 
> Premise 3:  Animal cruelty is against the law and punishable by the law.
> ...


You do realize that there are no laws against cruelty to reptiles right? Not supporting euthanasia by freezing but I just wanted to make sure you are aware of that

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## wilomn

> Um, actually, no.  I did a little thing that I like to call _research_.  Have you actually read any of the many citations I've posted in this thread, or do you prefer to remain in ignorance so you can insult those who disagree with you?
> 
> Also, as to the against the law thing, I will put it in Philosophy 101 terms for you.
> 
> Premise 1:  The AMVA says that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is inhumane.
> 
> Premise 2:  "Inhumane" is another way of saying "cruel."
> 
> Premise 3:  Animal cruelty is against the law and punishable by the law.
> ...


So, you lie AND use faulty logic.

Where Is that ignore button.....

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## WingedWolfPsion

I'm afraid you're wrong.  Existing animal cruelty laws DO cover reptiles (at least in some places), and people have been arrested on animal cruelty charges for cruelty to reptiles on a number of occasions in the US.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-...animal-cruelty

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## HeartAche

> I'm afraid you're wrong.  Existing animal cruelty laws DO cover reptiles (at least in some places), and people have been arrested on animal cruelty charges for cruelty to reptiles on a number of occasions in the US.
> 
> http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-...animal-cruelty


Alright I see that but Im looking for the actual written law for it and I'm not finding anything. I saw stuff for mammals and other warm-blooded animals but I saw no mention of reptiles.

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> So far, I believe, this is the first mention of intracardial injection.
> 
> As such, either a further clarification by previous experts, er rumor mongers, is necessary, or this thread is just going to spiral on and on, with no one actually knowing what anyone else is talking about.
> 
> I have assumed that we have been discussing injection of lethal drugs into a vein or artery, not directly into the heart. For that I am unaware of any anesthesia prior to injecting in reptiles. I am not considering anything but reptiles in this thread.


I will admit that I haven't seen many euthanasias in reptiles, so I'm going by what's written in Mader et. al, which is considered by many herp vets to be the definitive reference on reptile medicine. 

I honestly don't think it is terribly common. Usually the patients are either going to get better, or we can't keep them alive and euthanasia will be unnecessary. I know that a gecko had to be euthanized last week at the clinic because its stitches kept coming out after surgery. I'll have to ask the tech what method was used the next time I see him.

According to Mader et. al., intracardiac injection can be used for euthanasia in reptiles. So can intracranial. So can pithing. So can decapitation. In all of these methods, anaesthesia should be induced prior to euthanasia. 

It may be possible to do intracardiac injection on a very very weak, basically unconscious, patient. However, intracardiac is going to be difficult on a patient in this state as the heart may be difficult to find. If the animal is active and alert, the vet is probably going to administer anaesthesia beforehand to render it unconscious. 

It is possible to do IV injection of euthanasia solution, yes, and IM is possible, too, but these are going to be VERY slow deaths and probably not the method of choice.

What you do is going to vary from patient to patient. As was already mentioned by the patient with the poor, epileptic dog, euthanasia is not always quiet, painless and gentle even if you make every effort to make it that way. The goal is just to put the animal out of its misery as quickly and painlessly as possible.

I'd like to see the research that was done to conclude that freezing small reptiles is inevitably painful. Reptiles and amphibians DO feel pain, that's certain, but it seems that they may register some types of pain differently than birds and mammals. This is suggested by the fact that reptiles will sometimes incur massive burns sitting on heat mats or other heating elements without moving away from the source of the burn. I wonder if freezing SMALL babies that will be solid and dead fairly quickly is really all that inhumane. I'm not saying that it ISN'T, but I'm not totally convinced that it is. Especially when you figure that ANY method of euthanasia has the potential to be drawn-out and uncomfortable for the animal.

Also, FYI, the AVMA is not the end-all be-all of the veterinary world (even though they like to think they are). The AVMA is an industry auto-regulatory body that sets guidelines for veterinary practice. Most veterinarians are members of the AVMA, but enrollment is not mandatory. 

The AVMA also does not support feline declawing or canine tail docking or ear cropping, either, but these are both done on a regular basis and are not illegal in most jurisdictions. 

AFAIK animal cruelty laws vary on a state-by-state basis.

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_Eventide_ (08-30-2009),_jglass38_ (08-29-2009)

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## HeartAche

> I will admit that I haven't seen many euthanasias in reptiles, so I'm going by what's written in Mader et. al, which is considered by many herp vets to be the definitive reference on reptile medicine. 
> 
> I honestly don't think it is terribly common. Usually the patients are either going to get better, or we can't keep them alive and euthanasia will be unnecessary. I know that a gecko had to be euthanized last week at the clinic because its stitches kept coming out after surgery. I'll have to ask the tech what method was used the next time I see him.
> 
> According to Mader et. al., intracardiac injection can be used for euthanasia in reptiles. So can intracranial. So can pithing. So can decapitation. In all of these methods, anaesthesia should be induced prior to euthanasia. 
> 
> It may be possible to do intracardiac injection on a very very weak, basically unconscious, patient. However, intracardiac is going to be difficult on a patient in this state as the heart may be difficult to find. If the animal is active and alert, the vet is probably going to administer anaesthesia beforehand to render it unconscious. 
> 
> It is possible to do IV injection of euthanasia solution, yes, and IM is possible, too, but these are going to be VERY slow deaths and probably not the method of choice.
> ...


Ahhh I seee. I had been looking at the Animal Welfare Act so no wonder I couldn't find it. Sorry to hijack the thread

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## Serpent_Nirvana

The only other thing I'd like to add re: taking culls to a vet to be euthanized versus somehow trying to _humanely_ do it yourself is that some vets may not be willing to euthanize an animal that is deformed, but otherwise healthy. It depends on the vet.

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## Eventide

> The only other thing I'd like to add re: taking culls to a vet to be euthanized versus somehow trying to _humanely_ do it yourself is that some vets may not be willing to euthanize an animal that is deformed, but otherwise healthy. It depends on the vet.


Very good point.  My vet wouldn't do that, per se, but I know he won't put down a reptile just because the owners don't want it anymore (and it doesn't have a life-threatening condition).  I wouldn't doubt that some would do what you say.

As for the AMVA, I never said they were the be-all and end-all of the whole freezing debate.  That is why I posted multiple citations, including some scientific papers on the subject.

As for the animal cruelty laws, it does indeed vary state by state.  I went looking for summaries of cruelty laws 'cause I wouldn't doubt that some don't count reptiles (grr).  Arizona (my state) specifically says "any animal under the person's custody or control."  Looks like some other states do too, but sadly, some don't.  Makes me sad.

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## dmaricle

i feel that i am one of the reasons this thread was started and i am just going to stay out of it.

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> Very good point.  My vet wouldn't do that, per se, but I know he won't put down a reptile just because the owners don't want it anymore (and it doesn't have a life-threatening condition).  I wouldn't doubt that some would do what you say.
> 
> As for the AMVA, I never said they were the be-all and end-all of the whole freezing debate.  That is why I posted multiple citations, including some scientific papers on the subject.
> 
> As for the animal cruelty laws, it does indeed vary state by state.  I went looking for summaries of cruelty laws 'cause I wouldn't doubt that some don't count reptiles (grr).  Arizona (my state) specifically says "any animal under the person's custody or control."  Looks like some other states do too, but sadly, some don't.  Makes me sad.


Thanks for posting those -- somehow I missed the actual papers. I'll definitely have to go back and read them.  :Smile: 

Not that I'm hoping to have to put any babies down any time soon -- oh gosh, that would be awful! Of course, the other option, assuming it isn't suffering, is just to keep it around as a pet -- as long as it stays in your custody, you know nobody's breeding it!

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## Eventide

> i feel that i am one of the reasons this thread was started and i am just going to stay out of it.


I'm sorry.  Please don't feel pressured into not posting because of the drama that occurred here.  I'm not angry at anyone, and I don't get mad when people disagree with me.  I am also more than willing to listen to others' opinions and admit when I'm wrong.  I just get a bit annoyed when people attack me instead of my arguments.   :Smile: 




> Thanks for posting those -- somehow I missed the actual papers. I'll definitely have to go back and read them. 
> 
> Not that I'm hoping to have to put any babies down any time soon -- oh gosh, that would be awful! Of course, the other option, assuming it isn't suffering, is just to keep it around as a pet -- as long as it stays in your custody, you know nobody's breeding it!


No worries!   :Smile: 

Exactly!  But yeah, I don't really want to contemplate when I might have to make that decision either.  I've already had to make it with a couple leopard geckos....  I'd rather not do it anymore.   :Sad:   Alas, I know if I'm going to be breeding pythons, it's going to come up sooner or later.

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## SlitherinSisters

I agree, put it down. 

Although, if the kink is minor and the snake can eat and develop just fine I wouldn't put it down. Personally I wouldn't waist a bunch of time assist feeding a baby for months on end either. I don't want a snake that needs to be assist fed for the next 30 years. If a cat needed to have food forced down its' throat every day most people would let the poor thing go, same goes for a snake.

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## Mike Cavanaugh

You know... you "people" that are so quick to declare that freezing a reptile is inhumane.... Why have you refused to answer my one question?  If freezing is so bad, what* is* a humane way to put down a reptile?  What studies have been done to show that the way you mention is in fact less painful / stressful to a reptile then freezing?

What do you mean a snake can't have a headache?  Are you kidding me?  Are they some kind of superior being that is not capable of feeling pain?

Finally, I think a lot of the people holding hands and chanting "don't freeze, it hurts" genuinely don't have a clue, and aren't living in the real world.  *I am no way shape or form suggesting that freezing a reptile is inhumane.*  See below for what I mean about you kiddies not having a clue. 

It is 7:00pm on a Sunday.  The hobbyist ball breeder checks on his eggs and they have piped!!!!!  He is so excited and filled with absolute happiness, until he sees the one in the corner is completed and totally jacked up.  its face is all twisted up and its back is as crooked as a corkscrew.  It keeps banging its head into the side of the tub... It looks like it is trying to open its mouth but its jaw is so crooked it can't open it.  

What would you do?  Keep in mind it is 7:00pm on a Sunday night.  Going to the vet on Monday is out of the quesiton because you have to work Monday morning, and it is of course the busiest day of the week.  You also have to do all the normal stuff of taking the kids to school and going to practice the second you get home from work.  Tuesday probably isn't going to work either.   Oh yeah, and keep in mind the snake is still banging its head against the wall.

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## wilomn

> Oh yeah, and keep in mind the snake is still banging its head against the wall.


I say we get a miniature drumset for it to beat its head on, attach a sound track, add some soulful lyrics and put it on Youtube.

We should be rich by the end of the week.

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## SlitherinSisters

> You know... you "people" that are so quick to declare that freezing a reptile is inhumane.... Why have you refused to answer my one question?  If freezing is so bad, what* is* a humane way to put down a reptile?  What studies have been done to show that the way you mention is in fact less painful / stressful to a reptile then freezing?
> 
> What do you mean a snake can't have a headache?  Are you kidding me?  Are they some kind of superior being that is not capable of feeling pain?
> 
> Finally, I think a lot of the people holding hands and chanting "don't freeze, it hurts" genuinely don't have a clue, and aren't living in the real world.  *I am no way shape or form suggesting that freezing a reptile is inhumane.*  See below for what I mean about you kiddies not having a clue. 
> 
> It is 7:00pm on a Sunday.  The hobbyist ball breeder checks on his eggs and they have piped!!!!!  He is so excited and filled with absolute happiness, until he sees the one in the corner is completed and totally jacked up.  its face is all twisted up and its back is as crooked as a corkscrew.  It keeps banging its head into the side of the tub... It looks like it is trying to open its mouth but its jaw is so crooked it can't open it.  
> 
> What would you do?  Keep in mind it is 7:00pm on a Sunday night.  Going to the vet on Monday is out of the quesiton because you have to work Monday morning, and it is of course the busiest day of the week.  You also have to do all the normal stuff of taking the kids to school and going to practice the second you get home from work.  Tuesday probably isn't going to work either.   Oh yeah, and keep in mind the snake is still banging its head against the wall.


I'd freeze it

Oh and add the fact that most vets don't deal with reptiles and they might mess things up even more. We have a local vet, Dr. Killmore (Keemore is his given name) and he has sent DOGS home to be buried that came back alive and brain dead. I would rather freeze than take that baby to any vet around here, none of them deal with reptiles in a 40 mile radius of me, possibly even a bigger radius than that! Although I'd freeze if there was a vet that knew a thing or two about reptiles. That's just my opinion.

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## wilomn

> I just get a bit annoyed when people attack me instead of my arguments.


Yes, because we all know that what type of person you are, whether you are the type to bother to check anything, to take the time to verify or negate claims made, or just believe wholesale what ever you are told, puking up misinformation or outright lies, should have NO bearing on whether or not anyone believes you when you make outrageous or flat out fallacious statements. 

Should it?

I get a bit annoyed when people lie to me. I get a bit annoyed when they spread misinformation. I get a bit annoyed when they lie, spread misinformation and then get all butthurt when I get annoyed.

I'm sure your annoyance at being caught lying and spreading rumors, unfounded and false rumors, trumps my mere annoyance at your.... shall we be generous and call it an enthusiasm for attention....

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## accidental777

This kind of pertains to this thread (kind of joking as well)....Does anyone know if they still use nitrous oxide in cool whip cans? If anyone has ever read the book "frog salad" they get it.

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## SlitherinSisters

I was also thinking, on this freeze debate, would people rather to simply chop off their heads or break their necks? That's quick and painless......and it's exactly how you off a chicken. I don't see why snakes would have any higher status that would require a vet, it's just the humane factor. 

Personally I'd prefer to freeze.....it's less bloody. Then again I'm a farm girl who butchered half a dozen chickens the old fashioned way a few weeks ago.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## accidental777

Hmm....they use hydroflourocarbons in cool whip cans now (and in cooking spray). Anyways....is there anyway to somewhat dull the pain of freezing ball python without a vet issues anesthetic? I know that fish keepers will sometimes use clove oil to tranquilize a large fish or to humanely euthanize them.

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> I was also thinking, on this freeze debate, would people rather to simply chop off their heads or break their necks? That's quick and painless......and it's exactly how you off a chicken. I don't see why snakes would have any higher status that would require a vet, it's just the humane factor.


It is recommended to do this anyway, regardless of the method of euthanasia, to make sure the animal is really dead ...

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## Oroborous

I haven't read all the way through this thread, but I've seen enough...I thought this was a rather straight forward question. My opinion is simple, if the animal manages to eat, drink, poo, and move to thermoregulate, then it should be allowed to survive. A lot of animals can live with slight deformities without being in constant discomfort. Someone was saying if they should put a ball python down for missing an eye, or for having a skin blemish, to me this wouldn't even be a quetion. Some breeders or collectors may not want to buy a snake like that, but I would, I think it gives the animal some character...
It is sad when people start caring more about the money they make than the snakes they produce....

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## SlitherinSisters

> It is recommended to do this anyway, regardless of the method of euthanasia, to make sure the animal is really dead ...


Oh wow, I didn't know that. I assume you do this after you freeze it so technically it's not dying from the head being removed.

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## berliner11

i agree 100%

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## Serpent_Nirvana

> Oh wow, I didn't know that. I assume you do this after you freeze it so technically it's not dying from the head being removed.



I know this is a two year old thread, but this is important enough to justify clarifying ...

You are correct -- *please*, no one use decapitation as a method of reptile euthanasia. Reptiles may well maintain consciousness for quite awhile after being decapitated, so this is NOT a humane method!

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## mr.spooky

> I know this is a two year old thread, but this is important enough to justify clarifying ...
> 
> You are correct -- *please*, no one use decapitation as a method of reptile euthanasia. Reptiles may well maintain consciousness for quite awhile after being decapitated, so this is NOT a humane method!


   lol,, where  did you get this info?  is it from a scientific study,, or is it just out of your mind? do you have any references ?  
 spooky

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## mr.spooky

> I know this is a two year old thread, but this is important enough to justify clarifying ...
> 
> You are correct -- *please*, no one use decapitation as a method of reptile euthanasia. Reptiles may well maintain consciousness for quite awhile after being decapitated, so this is NOT a humane method!


Decapitation is an easy way to kill a reptile in that no special equipment or drugs are necessary. Nevertheless, the brain of a decapitated reptile may remain active for up to an hour, so decapitation by itself is inhumane. It may be used if the brain is pithed, or destroyed by the insertion of a probe, immediately afterwards. Some of you may have pithed leopard frogs in high school biology prior to their dissection.
 taken from here :   http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html
 spooky

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