Caramels - Are they worth purchasing?

I'd like to get everybody's thoughts on Caramels. We all know the kinking issues but I saw on another thread that a lot of clutches aren't viable either. Are these worth working with or are there too many problems with them?

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic Exotic

I'd like to get everybody's thoughts on Caramels. We all know the kinking issues but I saw on another thread that a lot of clutches aren't viable either. Are these worth working with or are there too many problems with them?

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Buy a Crider AKA Ultramel. They are a different line of caramels and they dont have kinking problems. If i had the money i would definetly get one.

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Originally Posted by Pulcher

Buy a Crider AKA Ultramel. They are a different line of caramels and they dont have kinking problems. If i had the money i would definetly get one.

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And they blow away regular caramels in the looks department as well.

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Originally Posted by SPJ

And they blow away regular caramels in the looks department as well.

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Unfortunately, they also blow away regular caramels in PRICE:O:D

If Ultramels continue to show no signs of kinking or other problems, I think they will end up phasing out and replacing caramels.
Better looking + no defects= win.

i have a caramel male and het female both adults, and are proven breeders. both clutches they have produced have had babies with no kinks or defects at all. the secret is to out cross them. my male is from brian sharp which is a bell line.the het female was produced by 8ball pythons and is a nerd line, plus we incubate them a little drier medium tghan you would normally use. my male caramel has a slight kink,at the very tip of his tail but produces perfect kink free babies

There was a thread not long ago asking to see Caramel females on eggs. There have been a ton of male caramel X female het caramel pairings with lots of caramel babies. The question is the fertility rate on caramel females.

Is there a fertility problem with female caramels (no eggs, fewer eggs, bad eggs) ??

Does it get better if combined with another gene (Caramel Glow, Spider Caramel, etc) ??

I did hear on another thread that BHB's line doesn't have kinking issues but have not verified that. On the crossing of lines, NERD's book seemed to indicate there might be compatibility issues with different lines much like the axanthics. Has there been any evidence supporting that?

Are caramels worth purchasing? Only if you like amazing look animals and hot crosses.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

Are caramels worth purchasing? Only if you like amazing look animals and hot crosses.

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Nothing beats a Caramel Glow. :gj:

http://www.brockwagnerreptiles.com/i.../snake14-6.jpg

As far as I know, all caramels are prone to kinking, and BHB has some kinked caramels in his rack--he showed them off in a video once.

Its true that caramels kink but outcrossing them with other caramels has shown lines of caramels without any kinks. But I think they are a terrific morph to have in a collection, especially when crossed with other morphs.

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Originally Posted by EcToTh3rMiC215

Its true that caramels kink but outcrossing them with other caramels has shown lines of caramels without any kinks.

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I'd like to see proof of that (more than one or two clutches with no kinks).

I have always avoided them, not because I KNOW they are all prone to kinking, but because I do not know enough about them to decide either way.

Cannot deny they are a nice looking animal though.

bruce

I think it's one of the top MUST HAVE Morphs yaaaay yaaaeeh:gj:!

I love them and think they are one of the best looking base morphs as adults, but if you are going to work with caramels you just have to accept that at some point you are probably going to have to deal with kinked babies.

I think caramels are great morphs i have a male and a bunch of het babies. im just going to breed my hets to a pastel het caramel male instead of back to dad. I think you will get kinks either way. from what i know the ultraamel x caramel breeding was het x het and only from a 4 egg clutch thats what they are basing compatability on. I think caramels are cool reguardless kinda like spiders my male never wobbled he kinda spinned a lil but never really bad wobble i think some spiders have it some dont they all carry it and sooner or later you will get wobblers reguardless. I think if you like the morph work with them work with what you like. I think there are gonna be more caramel combos to come. All morphs are freaks if you think about it weather they have kinks spins just having different color they are freaks so i just say work with what you like and youl be happy

here is my slight tail kinked male,he is a bell line and here is one of his daughters from this year kink freehttp://i268.photobucket.com/albums/j...s/IMG_0466.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/j...s/IMG_0467.jpg[/IMG]

I will never breed Caramels. The kinking thing does bother me to the point that I just will never work with them. I will get the Ultramels eventually. Since there is an alternative to the kinked Caramels, I will get them instead.

I will also go on the record and say the Spider wobble does not really bother me, because I have VERY SLIGHT wobblers. My adult female does not wobble at all, just does a slight head bob. The babies from her are the same, no wobble, just a slight head bob when feeding. I would say, if I had Spiders that tied themselves in knots, I might feel differently.

even if they are kinked they still can produce kink free babies as i just posted earlier. they key is to out cross and use drier incubating medium.

I LIKE ULTRAMELS -- ALOT!!!! :gj:

I will almost certainly be working them into my breeding within the next 2-3 years. However, I will be making Caramels one of the centerpiece morphs in my breeding over the next few years.

But the opinion that they Ultramels will make Caramels obsolete is ABJECTLY ABSURD. :rolleye2: ALL of the critical/negative/judgmental opinions about Caramels come for folks who either don't work with them at all, are working or plan on working on Ultramels, or have close breeder friends who are working with Ultramels. ;)

As most would agree, the Ultramel and Caramel are different in kind -- not compatible genetically. The age differently. I find the Ultramel to be a more "opaque" morph -- a more contrasted less translucent animal -- both as a hatchling and adult.

Other than the Carmello (Ultramel x Caramel) produced by Vin Russo, we have not seen any yet. Many people are talking as if it is a forgone conclusion that Ultramel combos will be FAR BETTER than Caramel combos. They might be? They might not be? It is all speculation at until some Ultramel combos start being produced.

The facts are that almost ALL the Ultramels sold in the U.S. thus far have been produced in Europe or Canada -- with most likely coming from Africa. What that means is that it will be 3-4 years before Ultramels/Ultramel combos are being produced domestically in any significant supply. You have got to have breedable Het girls -- that takes time.

Any idea what breeders that have a visual Caramel codom male with even a half-dozen breedable Caramel Het girls will be producing within that time period? It will be both genetically and visually AWESOME!!!

I have spoken to breeders who have told me that they have produced as many as 40 Caramels with NO KINKING and 120 Caramels with 3 minor kinks. Did they get lucky? Are they working with Caramel lines that are less prone to kinking? Were they incubating differently?

There are no real scientific studies done on why Caramels kink -- and what the percentage actually is. We have reports and incomplete reports from breeders willing to share results. I doubt that any degree of outcrossing, mixing with other morphs, incubating with lower temps, dryer/wetter incubation humidity is totally going to eliminate kinking in Caramels.

I produced 7 visual Caramels/Caramel combos this season -- with no kinking. Will I produce some kinked aniamls in future breeding? YES I WILL!!!!! What do "I expect the kinking percentage to be based on what info I have on others breeding and what small breeding sample I have thus far? I am expecting 10%. But lets say I am wrong and it is 20% -- I can live with that. ;) For me, it is cost of doing business/working with a morph that when paired with the right morph can create UNIQUE colors and "end animals" in one generation -- that GET BETTER WITH AGE!!!! How many morphs can you say that about????

The interesting thing with Ultramels -- did I say that I REALLY LIKE THEM!!!! :banana:
-- is that how easy it was for the Ball community to accept them NOT KINKING AT ALL as fact. :confused: Considering how closely they resemble Caramels and how limited the visual production sample has been outside of Africa -- I am personally puzzled by this.

I have what I consider a reliable source that has done A LOT of importing from Africa -- and therefore has inside info on production over there. He has direct info from a source that has worked MOST with Ultramels -- they also have produced KINKING. To what degree? Who knows?

I know that kinking will NOT keep me from acquiring an Ultramel at some point in the future. Like the Caramel, it will likely do some AMAZING combos when paired with the proper morph. :bow:

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Originally Posted by panthercz

If Ultramels continue to show no signs of kinking or other problems, I think they will end up phasing out and replacing caramels.
Better looking + no defects= win.

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Further mathematics:

Better Looking + no defects = win - cost to get one = unattainable :salute:

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Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

I LIKE ULTRAMELS -- ALOT!!!! :gj:

I will almost certainly be working them into my breeding within the next 2-3 years. However, I will be making Caramels one of the centerpiece morphs in my breeding over the next few years.

But the opinion that they Ultramels will make Caramels obsolete is ABJECTLY ABSURD. :rolleye2: ALL of the critical/negative/judgmental opinions about Caramels come for folks who either don't work with them at all, are working or plan on working on Ultramels, or have close breeder friends who are working with Ultramels. ;)

As most would agree, the Ultramel and Caramel are different in kind -- not compatible genetically. The age differently. I find the Ultramel to be a more "opaque" morph -- a more contrasted less translucent animal -- both as a hatchling and adult.

Other than the Carmello (Ultramel x Caramel) produced by Vin Russo, we have not seen any yet. Many people are talking as if it is a forgone conclusion that Ultramel combos will be FAR BETTER than Caramel combos. They might be? They might not be? It is all speculation at until some Ultramel combos start being produced.

The facts are that almost ALL the Ultramels sold in the U.S. thus far have been produced in Europe or Canada -- with most likely coming from Africa. What that means is that it will be 3-4 years before Ultramels/Ultramel combos are being produced domestically in any significant supply. You have got to have breedable Het girls -- that takes time.

Any idea what breeders that have a visual Caramel codom male with even a half-dozen breedable Caramel Het girls will be producing within that time period? It will be both genetically and visually AWESOME!!!

I have spoken to breeders who have told me that they have produced as many as 40 Caramels with NO KINKING and 120 Caramels with 3 minor kinks. Did they get lucky? Are they working with Caramel lines that are less prone to kinking? Were they incubating differently?

There are no real scientific studies done on why Caramels kink -- and what the percentage actually is. We have reports and incomplete reports from breeders willing to share results. I doubt that any degree of outcrossing, mixing with other morphs, incubating with lower temps, dryer/wetter incubation humidity is totally going to eliminate kinking in Caramels.

I produced 7 visual Caramels/Caramel combos this season -- with no kinking. Will I produce some kinked aniamls in future breeding? YES I WILL!!!!! What do "I expect the kinking percentage to be based on what info I have on others breeding and what small breeding sample I have thus far? I am expecting 10%. But lets say I am wrong and it is 20% -- I can live with that. ;) For me, it is cost of doing business/working with a morph that when paired with the right morph can create UNIQUE colors and "end animals" in one generation -- that GET BETTER WITH AGE!!!! How many morphs can you say that about????

The interesting thing with Ultramels -- did I say that I REALLY LIKE THEM!!!! :banana:
-- is that how easy it was for the Ball community to accept them NOT KINKING AT ALL as fact. :confused: Considering how closely they resemble Caramels and how limited the visual production sample has been outside of Africa -- I am personally puzzled by this.

I have what I consider a reliable source that has done A LOT of importing from Africa -- and therefore has inside info on production over there. He has direct info from a source that has worked MOST with Ultramels -- they also have produced KINKING. To what degree? Who knows?

I know that kinking will NOT keep me from acquiring an Ultramel at some point in the future. Like the Caramel, it will likely do some AMAZING combos when paired with the proper morph. :bow:

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Love mine! she's pretty awesome:D

I would avoid female caramels and just stick to het females and get a caramel male. But personally I am leery of the whole project and would wait for ultras to get more established.

Just look at how cheap people are selling adult caramels for on KS. For what the caramel gene can do it is way too cheap for the females to be problem free in terms of kinking and / or bad clutches.

I am sure some caramel females produce good clutches and healthy babies but the problems are still there, its just varience on if she slugs out or you get kinked babies.

The talk that outcrossing Caramels and different lines to produce non kinked babies is just that, talk. I know of a male Caramel being bred to several Het Caramels from different lines, and the babies came out looking like someone karate chopped them in the middle.

Outcrossing MIGHT help in the long run, dry or moist incubation MIGHT help in the future, but I have talked to two big breeders about the issue, and one sold out of their Caramels completly. One is trying lower incubation temps, and less humid egg boxes.....

I will say that I feel the opposite is happening, not that the Ultramel owners are saying that Caramels kink, but that Caramel owners are saying they don't kink, or don't kink all the time.....

I know for a fact that Caramels kink, and that just because you outcross them, does not mean they will not kink.

Dave

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

The talk that outcrossing Caramels and different lines to produce non kinked babies is just that, talk. I know of a male Caramel being bred to several Het Caramels from different lines, and the babies came out looking like someone karate chopped them in the middle.

Outcrossing MIGHT help in the long run, dry or moist incubation MIGHT help in the future, but I have talked to two big breeders about the issue, and one sold out of their Caramels completly. One is trying lower incubation temps, and less humid egg boxes.....

I will say that I feel the opposite is happening, not that the Ultramel owners are saying that Caramels kink, but that Caramel owners are saying they don't kink, or don't kink all the time.....

I know for a fact that Caramels kink, and that just because you outcross them, does not mean they will not kink.

Dave

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Dave, The belief/opinion that Caramels kink, if not stated directly by Ultramel purchasers, is certainly directly implied.

Why else would would one pay $6000 for an Ultramel (roughly $5000 MORE than a Caramel) when it is just as likely to produce combos that are similar as they are to produce something dramatically different or better?

Bill, for me, the cost of an Ultramel is too high right now, especially with the economy the way it is. When Het Pairs are $1000, count me in. I think the only people who do not see the Ultramels as the obvious choice when it comes to Caramel looking snakes, are people that spent big bucks on Caramels, and have alot of time and money invested, and probably babies to sell.

As someone who has bred a Caramel Het, albeit in a breeding loan situation, and as someone who does not have Caramels or Ultramels at this time, I think I have an ubiased opinion, and it is obvious where I stand on the subject.

I guess some could argue that a Woma is a Spider substitute, and I would not really argue against that point. But I feel the Ultramel is by far the better choice if money was no object, and if money is the problem, I would choose waiting for an Ultramel to be affordable over buying a Caramel now.

Just my opinion.....

Dave

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

Bill, for me, the cost of an Ultramel is too high right now, especially with the economy the way it is. When Het Pairs are $1000, count me in. I think the only people who do not see the Ultramels as the obvious choice when it comes to Caramel looking snakes, are people that spent big bucks on Caramels, and have alot of time and money invested, and probably babies to sell.

As someone who has bred a Caramel Het, albeit in a breeding loan situation, and as someone who does not have Caramels or Ultramels at this time, I think I have an ubiased opinion, and it is obvious where I stand on the subject.

I guess some could argue that a Woma is a Spider substitute, and I would not really argue against that point. But I feel the Ultramel is by far the better choice if money was no object, and if money is the problem, I would choose waiting for an Ultramel to be affordable over buying a Caramel now.

Just my opinion.....

Dave

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Dave, I see what you are saying and respect your position -- but is a position that is apples too my oranges. You cannot factor the Ultramel price tag out of the equation.

It is tantamount to saying "I prefer Deserts over Fires or Sulfers, but I am going to wait until Desert males are $500 rather than the $3000 (approx) they currently are -- however long that takes?? Whenever that $500 date is you will be "playing a different game" than those who purchased either a Desert or Fire or Sulfer at 09 prices -- and have been breeding/producing them. It is like that with nearly every newer morph and combo.

I would add that your perception, and others for that matter, that the Ultramel is the CLEAR choice over the Caranmel by nearly everyone in the hobby must certainly be rooted in the belief that ALL Caramel breeding will result in PROFOUND kinking (let's say 50% for arguments sake) and or, the combos from the Ultramel will clearly be superior to corresponding Caramel combos -- neither of those have been substantiated.

My experience with Caramels:

I had an adult Het Caramel female, SK line, and did a breeding loan with someone who had a visual Caramel male, from the CV Exotics line. We got one Caramel and several Hets. The Caramel was deformed, and either put down, or died on its own. We were not sure if it was kinked, or just deformed. The Hets all looked normal, no physical deformities. The owner of the Caramel male also bred him to several female Hets, as I recall, from a few different lines. EVERY Caramel they produced from each female Het was deformed/ severly kinked.

That, combined with the fact that I talked to a somewhat big, or well known Ball breeder at a show, and they told me they were selling out of Caramels completly, due to producing a ton of kinked babies, made me get out of Caramels too, before I got in too far.

I think both are worth working with. The Ultramel is a completely different morph. I have both and think both are worthwhile projects. The caramels will have some kinking. Here are pictures of them side by side. I think the caramel has the edge over the ultramel. I really like the purple tints and blushing of the caramel. I have produced 5 caramels and only one was kinked. Some from DH to DH and some from Visual to het. I have only produced hets from the ultramel.

Marshall
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...8/img_0070.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...8/img_0071.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...8/img_0065.jpg

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

As someone who has bred a Caramel Het, albeit in a breeding loan situation, and as someone who does not have Caramels or Ultramels at this time, I think I have an ubiased opinion, and it is obvious where I stand on the subject.
Dave

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

My experience with Caramels:

I had an adult Het Caramel female, SK line, and did a breeding loan with someone who had a visual Caramel male, from the CV Exotics line. We got one Caramel and several Hets. The Caramel was deformed, and either put down, or died on its own. We were not sure if it was kinked, or just deformed. The Hets all looked normal, no physical deformities. The owner of the Caramel male also bred him to several female Hets, as I recall, from a few different lines. EVERY Caramel they produced from each female Het was deformed/ severly kinked.

That, combined with the fact that I talked to a somewhat big, or well known Ball breeder at a show, and they told me they were selling out of Caramels completly, due to producing a ton of kinked babies, made me get out of Caramels too, before I got in too far.

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These comments show that you don't have an unbiased opinion. It's pretty obvious that your issues with caramels is drawn from these previous experiences.

Unbiased and uneducated are two different things. I have an ubiased opinion now, because I have niether animal now. My opinion is an educated one because I have had Caramels, so I am not going off of what I have heard, or read. I have first hand experience with Caramel breedings, and kinking.

If I had 5 Caramels to sell, my opinion would be biased. If I had $20K invested in Caramels, and hope to produce some this coming year, my opinion would be biased. I don't, I have nothing to gain one way or the other.

I know Caramels kink, from what I have seen, they can kink alot. From what I have heard from other breeders, quietly, 100% of the Caramels they hatched were kinked, to just some kinked. I can imagine after spending $10K on a project, and 2-4 years on a project, what it must be like to have 4 Caramels emerge from the eggs, with a big dent in their backs, or kinks along their bodies....it would suck! That is why they are not worth buying, to me. You can put in all this effort, all for nothing.

Dave

You don't have to have financial interest in something to have a biased opinion. You stated that you have had a bad experience with caramels, and that you know others that have had the same experience. Your biased opinion is based on these bad experiences.

There are breeders every year that hatch plenty of caramels that are healthy, kink-free animals.

Don't misunderstand me though. I acknowledge the fact that caramels are prone to kinking. All I'm saying is I think your position on the subject is based on a worst case scenario.

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

Unbiased and uneducated are two different things. I have an ubiased opinion now, because I have niether animal now. My opinion is an educated one because I have had Caramels, so I am not going off of what I have heard, or read. I have first hand experience with Caramel breedings, and kinking.

If I had 5 Caramels to sell, my opinion would be biased. If I had $20K invested in Caramels, and hope to produce some this coming year, my opinion would be biased. I don't, I have nothing to gain one way or the other.

I know Caramels kink, from what I have seen, they can kink alot. From what I have heard from other breeders, quietly, 100% of the Caramels they hatched were kinked, to just some kinked. I can imagine after spending $10K on a project, and 2-4 years on a project, what it must be like to have 4 Caramels emerge from the eggs, with a big dent in their backs, or kinks along their bodies....it would suck! That is why they are not worth buying, to me. You can put in all this effort, all for nothing.

Dave

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Riddle me this Dave???

My Mojave Het Caramel breeder is SK line. I bred him to 3 NERD Het females (CV Exotics works with NERD Caramels) which I purchased directly from Scott Seavey. All three girls produced Caramel Mojaves. 2 of the girls also produced Caramels. The exact same lines you bred produced 7 perfect visuals from my breeding.

Any fair-minded person would surely agree that my biased AND educated production of 7 perfect Caramels from 3 different females would trump 1 deformed one from from yours -- would you?

I would say you got good Caramels, we did not. Like I said before, the one we hatched was deformed, and not really what I would call kinked. So, it might be that the Caramel just had some incubation issues...maybe, maybe not. But the other breedings they did with the same male, different females, ALL were kinked like someone dropped a weight plate on their backs. From multiple females.

I am not saying some people do not produce flawless Caramels, the question was asked, are they worth it? I say no, that if there is an alternative, and there is, I would get the Ultramels instead.

Don't get me wrong, visually, the Caramel is one of my favorite morphs, and it pains me not to have any, but I weighed the options, the good, the bad, and made my decision. It is not worth the risk of producing just kinked animals, with all that time and money invested.

Where do you live Bill, come on down to Temecula and let's talk about Caramels over some microbrews at the Yardhouse:)

Dave

Ok a few things. One if you like a morph to the point you can live with its quirks than get it. Weather it is spiders spinning, womas with no viable super, Super lessers having bug eyes, or caramels possibly kinking. If you like the snake and you are willing to deal with the possible consequences of that morph get it. I love Caramels and got a pair when I felt I could deal with the risk at a certain price point.

Who ever feels that Ultramels/criders are a new line of caramels they need to get there head checked. They are not the same morph which has been proven with double hets as well as the 1 in 16 combos. I think it is easy for guys who keep Caramels to start throwing mud so as to try and scare keepers away from them. If they are not the same morph why would you expect them to have the same issues? I have both and love them for what they are. Different morphs that do different things as well as go great together.


Ryan Young

Crider line on top Caramel on the bottom.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...melcompare.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ryan Young

Ok a few things. One if you like a morph to the point you can live with its quirks than get it. Weather it is spiders spinning, womas with no viable super, Super lessers having bug eyes, or caramels possibly kinking. If you like the snake and you are willing to deal with the possible consequences of that morph get it. I love Caramels and got a pair when I felt I could deal with the risk at a certain price point.

Who ever feels that Ultramels/criders are a new line of caramels they need to get there head checked. They are not the same morph which has been proven with double hets as well as the 1 in 16 combos. I think it is easy for guys who keep Caramels to start throwing mud so as to try and scare keepers away from them. If they are not the same morph why would you expect them to have the same issues? I have both and love them for what they are. Different morphs that do different things as well as go great together.


Ryan Young

Crider line on top Caramel on the bottom.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...melcompare.jpg

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Great photo Ryan. :gj:

As I said in previous posts -- DIFFERENT morphs -- apples and oranges.

One point of yours I would take issue with. I see that it is OVERWHELMINGLY "Ultramel" devotees that are promoting the Ultramel as the "New Caramel -- without the pandemic kinking"!! It promises to do everything a Caramel can do -- and more!! And most are implying "fuzzy kinking %" to boot. :colbert:

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

I would say you got good Caramels, we did not. Like I said before, the one we hatched was deformed, and not really what I would call kinked. So, it might be that the Caramel just had some incubation issues...maybe, maybe not. But the other breedings they did with the same male, different females, ALL were kinked like someone dropped a weight plate on their backs. From multiple females.

I am not saying some people do not produce flawless Caramels, the question was asked, are they worth it? I say no, that if there is an alternative, and there is, I would get the Ultramels instead.

Don't get me wrong, visually, the Caramel is one of my favorite morphs, and it pains me not to have any, but I weighed the options, the good, the bad, and made my decision. It is not worth the risk of producing just kinked animals, with all that time and money invested.

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Dave, I wish I subscribed to your "good Caramel theory". lol

Genes are genes -- I feel.

And while some Caramel lines might be stronger, mixing with a codom gene is beneficial, outcrossing is likely good, and incubation modifications may help. Breeders working with Caramels are going to encounter kinking at some point in time.

Like I have said, "Cost of working with a morph that can create colors that most morphs cannot". ;) There are MANY choices for breeders who want to to work with morphs that are not problematic.

Hurray for the difference!!!!!! :banana::banana::banana:

I still haven't seen much discussion about the rumored fertility issues associated with Caramels.

If it isn't a rumor, then it is much more important than kinking IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryan Young

Ok a few things. One if you like a morph to the point you can live with its quirks than get it. Weather it is spiders spinning, womas with no viable super, Super lessers having bug eyes, or caramels possibly kinking. If you like the snake and you are willing to deal with the possible consequences of that morph get it. I love Caramels and got a pair when I felt I could deal with the risk at a certain price point.

Who ever feels that Ultramels/criders are a new line of caramels they need to get there head checked. They are not the same morph which has been proven with double hets as well as the 1 in 16 combos. I think it is easy for guys who keep Caramels to start throwing mud so as to try and scare keepers away from them. If they are not the same morph why would you expect them to have the same issues? I have both and love them for what they are. Different morphs that do different things as well as go great together.


Ryan Young

Crider line on top Caramel on the bottom.
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...melcompare.jpg

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First off, and this is strictly my opinion, of the mentioned morph genetic problems, kinking in caramels to me is hands down the most bothersome. Secondly, I think the Ultramels I'm seeing blow away caramels so if they also don't have the genetic issues, I think I'm going to hold off for those and blow off the caramels. Not trying to offend anyone that does keep caramels, just my opinion after researching as well as reading the responses.

I hate the history of this morph as for a long time it was thought to be another line of caramel and it did not help any (at first) that they were bred to eachother and the two guys who first made Ultramel/criders had double hets wich made both types of babies adding to the confusion. It has since been proven to not be the same morph at all and as such I find it odd I keep hearing Caramel keepers say they think it will kink as well. I have to question the motives on that one. I like the Ultramels more myself as well but I also really like Caramels so I have both. I have had friends who think I am nuts for working with Caramels when I have Criders/Ultramels but what can I say I like what each one has to offer. If you like Caramels they are at great prices right now and even if you get a few kinked ones your buy in will not have been great so you can deal with it. If you breed snakes long enouph you will hatch a deformed one at some point.

Ryan Young

Male Ultramel
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3.../Ultramel1.jpg

My issue is that I have no interest whatsoever in producing any morph in great numbers. It's all about combos with me. As such, it is really frustrating to work with a recessive on combos that is likely to throw a lot of deformities (since recessive combos take a lot more effort). Granted, anything can throw a deformity but seems like caramels are more prone to. On another note, has the Ultramel Glow been produced? Would love to see a picture of one next to a Caramel Glow.

I keep going back and forth on the caramels. I bought the fist 66% chance het male I saw for sale. Took way to long to produce possible possible het females. Gave several away. And took way to long to grow up the ones I kept. By then the ultramel's finally came to light and I also thought they would replace caramel so wasn't even going to try breeding my pos pos het females to a caramel gene male. But Marshall's point about each morph having its merits has me thinking more about something that has been bothering me for some time about caramels.

On both the kinking and the more recent rumor of possible female egg quality issues I've heard very mixed reports. I've even heard that half the imported caramels where kinked. I think if the problem could have been breed out it would have been by now. But how do you reconcile the reports of high rates of problems from some breeders and no problem at all from others?

Of the reports of no kinks out of large numbers of caramels there is a report from a breeder a trust. So I think there must be a variable between collections other than just genetics.

The theory I keep coming back to is nutrients. I've run this theory by people who actually know something about organic chemistry (I don’t) and frankly not gotten much back for encouragement so keep in mind this is just a wild unsubstantiated theory.

1. From "Nutrition and feeding of fish By Tom Lovell":

"Curvature of the spinal column is a prominent, early sign of vitamin C deficiency in finfishes." page 54

2. From http://www.becomehealthynow.com/glos...tamin_cbh.htm:

"In addition to these, the C complex contains enzymes, the outstanding one being tyrosinase. That's organic copper, an adrenal activator, If you want to rate vitamin C according to one thing, it would be logical to rate the tyrosinase. We have found that the products containing the most tyrosinase produce the best clinical results. But all of these other factors are important for the reasons mentioned, In addition to all these factors, the vitamin C complex also contains ascorbic acid. To say that ascorbic acid is vitamin C is like looking at a wheel and saying that it is an automobile, while it is just a small part of an automobile"

3. Nutritional deficiencies, both in animals and in humans, are known to alter melanin production. Copper and zinc deficiencies have been reported to induce hypopigmentation in various animals. Hypopigmentation of the skin and hair results from copper deficiency in humans; the depigmentation associated with chronic excessive molybdenum intake is related to a decreased storage of copper in the liver. Copper would seem of prime importance because tyrosinase is a known copper-requiring enzyme." Vitiligo and Other Hypomelanoses of Hair and Skin, by Jean-Paul Ortonne, M.D., Plenum Medical Book Company, NY.

So maybe the difference between breeders who report high rates of caramel kinking and bad eggs from caramel females and those that report no kinking and good eggs has to do with what brand of rat food their feeders eat?

From a little reading I've done it sounds like most animals can make their own vitamin C with the exception of the group of primates including humans, most bats, and at least some fish and guinea pigs. What if most ball pythons can make vitamin C but the caramel mutation interferes with this causing both the spinal problems and the caramel color? Since rats normally don't need vitamin c maybe some rodent foods don't contain much if any but other brands just happen to have it (maybe in case you want to feed it to your monkey or guinea pig).

I like your thinking, Randy. Definitely a ton we don't know about the morphs, and most of what we do know is anecdotal and speculative.

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Originally Posted by Pulcher

Nothing beats a Caramel Glow. :gj:

http://www.brockwagnerreptiles.com/i.../snake14-6.jpg

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Agreed

I'm leaning towards to the caramel - based on the photo of the ultramel next to a caramel. I don't know whether I'm getting one myself some day but I wouldn't doubt it. The caramel glow rocks! :)

The colors on an ultramel almost gets too 'melty' compared to a caramel. Especially on that photo with two of them only showing some of their back.

Just because some of the offspring gets a 'huge back'/'kink' then it does not mean that every single animal gets it. It's the same thing when pairing two pieds together. Just because you have two high-white parrents then it does not mean that all of the offspring is going to be high-white or even coconuts.

I'm almost certain that ultramels won't blow caramels away. They are two different animals (colors) - both looks nice and I would be glad to own one of these beautys. ;)

I put "well, person X's caramels don't kink" in the same category as "person X's spiders don't wobble".

That category is "maybe". I don't believe it. I don't disbelieve it. I'm not going to bet money on it. Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

The talk that outcrossing Caramels and different lines to produce non kinked babies is just that, talk. I know of a male Caramel being bred to several Het Caramels from different lines, and the babies came out looking like someone karate chopped them in the middle.

Outcrossing MIGHT help in the long run, dry or moist incubation MIGHT help in the future, but I have talked to two big breeders about the issue, and one sold out of their Caramels completly. One is trying lower incubation temps, and less humid egg boxes.....

I will say that I feel the opposite is happening, not that the Ultramel owners are saying that Caramels kink, but that Caramel owners are saying they don't kink, or don't kink all the time.....

I know for a fact that Caramels kink, and that just because you outcross them, does not mean they will not kink.

Dave

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I really think you need to do more research on what your saying !

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Originally Posted by Haydenphoto

I really think you need to do more research on what your saying !

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Not sure why? He is right. Caramels kink. Not every single one obviously, or not even one in every clutch, but if you produce enough caramels sooner or later you are going to produce some kinked ones.