Caramels - Are they worth purchasing?

[Bill Buchman]

I LIKE ULTRAMELS -- ALOT!!!!

I will almost certainly be working them into my breeding within the next 2-3 years. However, I will be making Caramels one of the centerpiece morphs in my breeding over the next few years.

But the opinion that they Ultramels will make Caramels obsolete is ABJECTLY ABSURD. ALL of the critical/negative/judgmental opinions about Caramels come for folks who either don't work with them at all, are working or plan on working on Ultramels, or have close breeder friends who are working with Ultramels.

As most would agree, the Ultramel and Caramel are different in kind -- not compatible genetically. The age differently. I find the Ultramel to be a more "opaque" morph -- a more contrasted less translucent animal -- both as a hatchling and adult.

Other than the Carmello (Ultramel x Caramel) produced by Vin Russo, we have not seen any yet. Many people are talking as if it is a forgone conclusion that Ultramel combos will be FAR BETTER than Caramel combos. They might be? They might not be? It is all speculation at until some Ultramel combos start being produced.

The facts are that almost ALL the Ultramels sold in the U.S. thus far have been produced in Europe or Canada -- with most likely coming from Africa. What that means is that it will be 3-4 years before Ultramels/Ultramel combos are being produced domestically in any significant supply. You have got to have breedable Het girls -- that takes time.

Any idea what breeders that have a visual Caramel codom male with even a half-dozen breedable Caramel Het girls will be producing within that time period? It will be both genetically and visually AWESOME!!!

I have spoken to breeders who have told me that they have produced as many as 40 Caramels with NO KINKING and 120 Caramels with 3 minor kinks. Did they get lucky? Are they working with Caramel lines that are less prone to kinking? Were they incubating differently?

There are no real scientific studies done on why Caramels kink -- and what the percentage actually is. We have reports and incomplete reports from breeders willing to share results. I doubt that any degree of outcrossing, mixing with other morphs, incubating with lower temps, dryer/wetter incubation humidity is totally going to eliminate kinking in Caramels.

I produced 7 visual Caramels/Caramel combos this season -- with no kinking. Will I produce some kinked aniamls in future breeding? YES I WILL!!!!! What do "I expect the kinking percentage to be based on what info I have on others breeding and what small breeding sample I have thus far? I am expecting 10%. But lets say I am wrong and it is 20% -- I can live with that. For me, it is cost of doing business/working with a morph that when paired with the right morph can create UNIQUE colors and "end animals" in one generation -- that GET BETTER WITH AGE!!!! How many morphs can you say that about????

The interesting thing with Ultramels -- did I say that I REALLY LIKE THEM!!!!
-- is that how easy it was for the Ball community to accept them NOT KINKING AT ALL as fact. Considering how closely they resemble Caramels and how limited the visual production sample has been outside of Africa -- I am personally puzzled by this.

I have what I consider a reliable source that has done A LOT of importing from Africa -- and therefore has inside info on production over there. He has direct info from a source that has worked MOST with Ultramels -- they also have produced KINKING. To what degree? Who knows?

I know that kinking will NOT keep me from acquiring an Ultramel at some point in the future. Like the Caramel, it will likely do some AMAZING combos when paired with the proper morph.

[DrLew]

If Ultramels continue to show no signs of kinking or other problems, I think they will end up phasing out and replacing caramels.
Better looking + no defects= win.

Further mathematics:

Better Looking + no defects = win - cost to get one = unattainable

[DrLew]

I LIKE ULTRAMELS -- ALOT!!!!

I will almost certainly be working them into my breeding within the next 2-3 years. However, I will be making Caramels one of the centerpiece morphs in my breeding over the next few years.

But the opinion that they Ultramels will make Caramels obsolete is ABJECTLY ABSURD. ALL of the critical/negative/judgmental opinions about Caramels come for folks who either don't work with them at all, are working or plan on working on Ultramels, or have close breeder friends who are working with Ultramels.

As most would agree, the Ultramel and Caramel are different in kind -- not compatible genetically. The age differently. I find the Ultramel to be a more "opaque" morph -- a more contrasted less translucent animal -- both as a hatchling and adult.

Other than the Carmello (Ultramel x Caramel) produced by Vin Russo, we have not seen any yet. Many people are talking as if it is a forgone conclusion that Ultramel combos will be FAR BETTER than Caramel combos. They might be? They might not be? It is all speculation at until some Ultramel combos start being produced.

The facts are that almost ALL the Ultramels sold in the U.S. thus far have been produced in Europe or Canada -- with most likely coming from Africa. What that means is that it will be 3-4 years before Ultramels/Ultramel combos are being produced domestically in any significant supply. You have got to have breedable Het girls -- that takes time.

Any idea what breeders that have a visual Caramel codom male with even a half-dozen breedable Caramel Het girls will be producing within that time period? It will be both genetically and visually AWESOME!!!

I have spoken to breeders who have told me that they have produced as many as 40 Caramels with NO KINKING and 120 Caramels with 3 minor kinks. Did they get lucky? Are they working with Caramel lines that are less prone to kinking? Were they incubating differently?

There are no real scientific studies done on why Caramels kink -- and what the percentage actually is. We have reports and incomplete reports from breeders willing to share results. I doubt that any degree of outcrossing, mixing with other morphs, incubating with lower temps, dryer/wetter incubation humidity is totally going to eliminate kinking in Caramels.

I produced 7 visual Caramels/Caramel combos this season -- with no kinking. Will I produce some kinked aniamls in future breeding? YES I WILL!!!!! What do "I expect the kinking percentage to be based on what info I have on others breeding and what small breeding sample I have thus far? I am expecting 10%. But lets say I am wrong and it is 20% -- I can live with that. For me, it is cost of doing business/working with a morph that when paired with the right morph can create UNIQUE colors and "end animals" in one generation -- that GET BETTER WITH AGE!!!! How many morphs can you say that about????

The interesting thing with Ultramels -- did I say that I REALLY LIKE THEM!!!!
-- is that how easy it was for the Ball community to accept them NOT KINKING AT ALL as fact. Considering how closely they resemble Caramels and how limited the visual production sample has been outside of Africa -- I am personally puzzled by this.

I have what I consider a reliable source that has done A LOT of importing from Africa -- and therefore has inside info on production over there. He has direct info from a source that has worked MOST with Ultramels -- they also have produced KINKING. To what degree? Who knows?

I know that kinking will NOT keep me from acquiring an Ultramel at some point in the future. Like the Caramel, it will likely do some AMAZING combos when paired with the proper morph.

Love mine! she's pretty awesome

[euphuistical]

I would avoid female caramels and just stick to het females and get a caramel male. But personally I am leery of the whole project and would wait for ultras to get more established.

Just look at how cheap people are selling adult caramels for on KS. For what the caramel gene can do it is way too cheap for the females to be problem free in terms of kinking and / or bad clutches.

I am sure some caramel females produce good clutches and healthy babies but the problems are still there, its just varience on if she slugs out or you get kinked babies.

[EmberBall]

The talk that outcrossing Caramels and different lines to produce non kinked babies is just that, talk. I know of a male Caramel being bred to several Het Caramels from different lines, and the babies came out looking like someone karate chopped them in the middle.

Outcrossing MIGHT help in the long run, dry or moist incubation MIGHT help in the future, but I have talked to two big breeders about the issue, and one sold out of their Caramels completly. One is trying lower incubation temps, and less humid egg boxes.....

I will say that I feel the opposite is happening, not that the Ultramel owners are saying that Caramels kink, but that Caramel owners are saying they don't kink, or don't kink all the time.....

I know for a fact that Caramels kink, and that just because you outcross them, does not mean they will not kink.

Dave

[Bill Buchman]

The talk that outcrossing Caramels and different lines to produce non kinked babies is just that, talk. I know of a male Caramel being bred to several Het Caramels from different lines, and the babies came out looking like someone karate chopped them in the middle.

Outcrossing MIGHT help in the long run, dry or moist incubation MIGHT help in the future, but I have talked to two big breeders about the issue, and one sold out of their Caramels completly. One is trying lower incubation temps, and less humid egg boxes.....

I will say that I feel the opposite is happening, not that the Ultramel owners are saying that Caramels kink, but that Caramel owners are saying they don't kink, or don't kink all the time.....

I know for a fact that Caramels kink, and that just because you outcross them, does not mean they will not kink.

Dave

Dave, The belief/opinion that Caramels kink, if not stated directly by Ultramel purchasers, is certainly directly implied.

Why else would would one pay $6000 for an Ultramel (roughly $5000 MORE than a Caramel) when it is just as likely to produce combos that are similar as they are to produce something dramatically different or better?

[EmberBall]

Bill, for me, the cost of an Ultramel is too high right now, especially with the economy the way it is. When Het Pairs are $1000, count me in. I think the only people who do not see the Ultramels as the obvious choice when it comes to Caramel looking snakes, are people that spent big bucks on Caramels, and have alot of time and money invested, and probably babies to sell.

As someone who has bred a Caramel Het, albeit in a breeding loan situation, and as someone who does not have Caramels or Ultramels at this time, I think I have an ubiased opinion, and it is obvious where I stand on the subject.

I guess some could argue that a Woma is a Spider substitute, and I would not really argue against that point. But I feel the Ultramel is by far the better choice if money was no object, and if money is the problem, I would choose waiting for an Ultramel to be affordable over buying a Caramel now.

Just my opinion.....

Dave

[Bill Buchman]

Bill, for me, the cost of an Ultramel is too high right now, especially with the economy the way it is. When Het Pairs are $1000, count me in. I think the only people who do not see the Ultramels as the obvious choice when it comes to Caramel looking snakes, are people that spent big bucks on Caramels, and have alot of time and money invested, and probably babies to sell.

As someone who has bred a Caramel Het, albeit in a breeding loan situation, and as someone who does not have Caramels or Ultramels at this time, I think I have an ubiased opinion, and it is obvious where I stand on the subject.

I guess some could argue that a Woma is a Spider substitute, and I would not really argue against that point. But I feel the Ultramel is by far the better choice if money was no object, and if money is the problem, I would choose waiting for an Ultramel to be affordable over buying a Caramel now.

Just my opinion.....

Dave

Dave, I see what you are saying and respect your position -- but is a position that is apples too my oranges. You cannot factor the Ultramel price tag out of the equation.

It is tantamount to saying "I prefer Deserts over Fires or Sulfers, but I am going to wait until Desert males are $500 rather than the $3000 (approx) they currently are -- however long that takes?? Whenever that $500 date is you will be "playing a different game" than those who purchased either a Desert or Fire or Sulfer at 09 prices -- and have been breeding/producing them. It is like that with nearly every newer morph and combo.

I would add that your perception, and others for that matter, that the Ultramel is the CLEAR choice over the Caranmel by nearly everyone in the hobby must certainly be rooted in the belief that ALL Caramel breeding will result in PROFOUND kinking (let's say 50% for arguments sake) and or, the combos from the Ultramel will clearly be superior to corresponding Caramel combos -- neither of those have been substantiated.

[EmberBall]

My experience with Caramels:

I had an adult Het Caramel female, SK line, and did a breeding loan with someone who had a visual Caramel male, from the CV Exotics line. We got one Caramel and several Hets. The Caramel was deformed, and either put down, or died on its own. We were not sure if it was kinked, or just deformed. The Hets all looked normal, no physical deformities. The owner of the Caramel male also bred him to several female Hets, as I recall, from a few different lines. EVERY Caramel they produced from each female Het was deformed/ severly kinked.

That, combined with the fact that I talked to a somewhat big, or well known Ball breeder at a show, and they told me they were selling out of Caramels completly, due to producing a ton of kinked babies, made me get out of Caramels too, before I got in too far.

[marshall]

I think both are worth working with. The Ultramel is a completely different morph. I have both and think both are worthwhile projects. The caramels will have some kinking. Here are pictures of them side by side. I think the caramel has the edge over the ultramel. I really like the purple tints and blushing of the caramel. I have produced 5 caramels and only one was kinked. Some from DH to DH and some from Visual to het. I have only produced hets from the ultramel.

Marshall