Caramels - Are they worth purchasing?

[EmberBall]

Unbiased and uneducated are two different things. I have an ubiased opinion now, because I have niether animal now. My opinion is an educated one because I have had Caramels, so I am not going off of what I have heard, or read. I have first hand experience with Caramel breedings, and kinking.

If I had 5 Caramels to sell, my opinion would be biased. If I had $20K invested in Caramels, and hope to produce some this coming year, my opinion would be biased. I don't, I have nothing to gain one way or the other.

I know Caramels kink, from what I have seen, they can kink alot. From what I have heard from other breeders, quietly, 100% of the Caramels they hatched were kinked, to just some kinked. I can imagine after spending $10K on a project, and 2-4 years on a project, what it must be like to have 4 Caramels emerge from the eggs, with a big dent in their backs, or kinks along their bodies....it would suck! That is why they are not worth buying, to me. You can put in all this effort, all for nothing.

Dave

[JMartin]

You don't have to have financial interest in something to have a biased opinion. You stated that you have had a bad experience with caramels, and that you know others that have had the same experience. Your biased opinion is based on these bad experiences.

There are breeders every year that hatch plenty of caramels that are healthy, kink-free animals.

Don't misunderstand me though. I acknowledge the fact that caramels are prone to kinking. All I'm saying is I think your position on the subject is based on a worst case scenario.

[Bill Buchman]

Unbiased and uneducated are two different things. I have an ubiased opinion now, because I have niether animal now. My opinion is an educated one because I have had Caramels, so I am not going off of what I have heard, or read. I have first hand experience with Caramel breedings, and kinking.

If I had 5 Caramels to sell, my opinion would be biased. If I had $20K invested in Caramels, and hope to produce some this coming year, my opinion would be biased. I don't, I have nothing to gain one way or the other.

I know Caramels kink, from what I have seen, they can kink alot. From what I have heard from other breeders, quietly, 100% of the Caramels they hatched were kinked, to just some kinked. I can imagine after spending $10K on a project, and 2-4 years on a project, what it must be like to have 4 Caramels emerge from the eggs, with a big dent in their backs, or kinks along their bodies....it would suck! That is why they are not worth buying, to me. You can put in all this effort, all for nothing.

Dave

Riddle me this Dave???

My Mojave Het Caramel breeder is SK line. I bred him to 3 NERD Het females (CV Exotics works with NERD Caramels) which I purchased directly from Scott Seavey. All three girls produced Caramel Mojaves. 2 of the girls also produced Caramels. The exact same lines you bred produced 7 perfect visuals from my breeding.

Any fair-minded person would surely agree that my biased AND educated production of 7 perfect Caramels from 3 different females would trump 1 deformed one from from yours -- would you?

[EmberBall]

I would say you got good Caramels, we did not. Like I said before, the one we hatched was deformed, and not really what I would call kinked. So, it might be that the Caramel just had some incubation issues...maybe, maybe not. But the other breedings they did with the same male, different females, ALL were kinked like someone dropped a weight plate on their backs. From multiple females.

I am not saying some people do not produce flawless Caramels, the question was asked, are they worth it? I say no, that if there is an alternative, and there is, I would get the Ultramels instead.

Don't get me wrong, visually, the Caramel is one of my favorite morphs, and it pains me not to have any, but I weighed the options, the good, the bad, and made my decision. It is not worth the risk of producing just kinked animals, with all that time and money invested.

[EmberBall]

Where do you live Bill, come on down to Temecula and let's talk about Caramels over some microbrews at the Yardhouse

Dave

[Ryan Young]

Ok a few things. One if you like a morph to the point you can live with its quirks than get it. Weather it is spiders spinning, womas with no viable super, Super lessers having bug eyes, or caramels possibly kinking. If you like the snake and you are willing to deal with the possible consequences of that morph get it. I love Caramels and got a pair when I felt I could deal with the risk at a certain price point.

Who ever feels that Ultramels/criders are a new line of caramels they need to get there head checked. They are not the same morph which has been proven with double hets as well as the 1 in 16 combos. I think it is easy for guys who keep Caramels to start throwing mud so as to try and scare keepers away from them. If they are not the same morph why would you expect them to have the same issues? I have both and love them for what they are. Different morphs that do different things as well as go great together.


Ryan Young

Crider line on top Caramel on the bottom.

[Bill Buchman]

Ok a few things. One if you like a morph to the point you can live with its quirks than get it. Weather it is spiders spinning, womas with no viable super, Super lessers having bug eyes, or caramels possibly kinking. If you like the snake and you are willing to deal with the possible consequences of that morph get it. I love Caramels and got a pair when I felt I could deal with the risk at a certain price point.

Who ever feels that Ultramels/criders are a new line of caramels they need to get there head checked. They are not the same morph which has been proven with double hets as well as the 1 in 16 combos. I think it is easy for guys who keep Caramels to start throwing mud so as to try and scare keepers away from them. If they are not the same morph why would you expect them to have the same issues? I have both and love them for what they are. Different morphs that do different things as well as go great together.


Ryan Young

Crider line on top Caramel on the bottom.

Great photo Ryan.

As I said in previous posts -- DIFFERENT morphs -- apples and oranges.

One point of yours I would take issue with. I see that it is OVERWHELMINGLY "Ultramel" devotees that are promoting the Ultramel as the "New Caramel -- without the pandemic kinking"!! It promises to do everything a Caramel can do -- and more!! And most are implying "fuzzy kinking %" to boot.

[Hypnotic Exotic]

Ok a few things. One if you like a morph to the point you can live with its quirks than get it. Weather it is spiders spinning, womas with no viable super, Super lessers having bug eyes, or caramels possibly kinking. If you like the snake and you are willing to deal with the possible consequences of that morph get it. I love Caramels and got a pair when I felt I could deal with the risk at a certain price point.

Who ever feels that Ultramels/criders are a new line of caramels they need to get there head checked. They are not the same morph which has been proven with double hets as well as the 1 in 16 combos. I think it is easy for guys who keep Caramels to start throwing mud so as to try and scare keepers away from them. If they are not the same morph why would you expect them to have the same issues? I have both and love them for what they are. Different morphs that do different things as well as go great together.


Ryan Young

Crider line on top Caramel on the bottom.

First off, and this is strictly my opinion, of the mentioned morph genetic problems, kinking in caramels to me is hands down the most bothersome. Secondly, I think the Ultramels I'm seeing blow away caramels so if they also don't have the genetic issues, I think I'm going to hold off for those and blow off the caramels. Not trying to offend anyone that does keep caramels, just my opinion after researching as well as reading the responses.

[Ryan Young]

I hate the history of this morph as for a long time it was thought to be another line of caramel and it did not help any (at first) that they were bred to eachother and the two guys who first made Ultramel/criders had double hets wich made both types of babies adding to the confusion. It has since been proven to not be the same morph at all and as such I find it odd I keep hearing Caramel keepers say they think it will kink as well. I have to question the motives on that one. I like the Ultramels more myself as well but I also really like Caramels so I have both. I have had friends who think I am nuts for working with Caramels when I have Criders/Ultramels but what can I say I like what each one has to offer. If you like Caramels they are at great prices right now and even if you get a few kinked ones your buy in will not have been great so you can deal with it. If you breed snakes long enouph you will hatch a deformed one at some point.

Ryan Young

Male Ultramel

[Kristian]

I fell like chiming in. I am relatively new to ball python breeding. My son's interest sparked my interest. We have exactly 3 normal females, 1 male fire, 1 male lemon pastel, and 1 female pinstripe.
After much discussion, we decided to not purchase a spider, even though bumble bees were the original inspiration for my son's interest. This was due to the wobble issue. I couldn't reproduce that with a clear conscience realizing that every animal I produce is in existence because of me. I don't care about the percentage of probability. I don't care about profit potential. I don't want to see an animal wobble or spin because of my own desires to produce something I think looks cool. I will not be working with any caramels for the same reason. I do not know enough about the ultramel to say anything other than it is completely out of my price range. Both are beautiful and I wish there wasn't these kink issues. I'm not in it for the money, and I couldn't do it knowing in advance that there is a good probability that there could be issues.
I just thought some prospective from the purely hobby end might help with the business end prospective. If I am out of line commenting here, please disregard.