Caramels - Are they worth purchasing?

[Hypnotic Exotic]

Ok a few things. One if you like a morph to the point you can live with its quirks than get it. Weather it is spiders spinning, womas with no viable super, Super lessers having bug eyes, or caramels possibly kinking. If you like the snake and you are willing to deal with the possible consequences of that morph get it. I love Caramels and got a pair when I felt I could deal with the risk at a certain price point.

Who ever feels that Ultramels/criders are a new line of caramels they need to get there head checked. They are not the same morph which has been proven with double hets as well as the 1 in 16 combos. I think it is easy for guys who keep Caramels to start throwing mud so as to try and scare keepers away from them. If they are not the same morph why would you expect them to have the same issues? I have both and love them for what they are. Different morphs that do different things as well as go great together.


Ryan Young

Crider line on top Caramel on the bottom.

First off, and this is strictly my opinion, of the mentioned morph genetic problems, kinking in caramels to me is hands down the most bothersome. Secondly, I think the Ultramels I'm seeing blow away caramels so if they also don't have the genetic issues, I think I'm going to hold off for those and blow off the caramels. Not trying to offend anyone that does keep caramels, just my opinion after researching as well as reading the responses.

[Ryan Young]

I hate the history of this morph as for a long time it was thought to be another line of caramel and it did not help any (at first) that they were bred to eachother and the two guys who first made Ultramel/criders had double hets wich made both types of babies adding to the confusion. It has since been proven to not be the same morph at all and as such I find it odd I keep hearing Caramel keepers say they think it will kink as well. I have to question the motives on that one. I like the Ultramels more myself as well but I also really like Caramels so I have both. I have had friends who think I am nuts for working with Caramels when I have Criders/Ultramels but what can I say I like what each one has to offer. If you like Caramels they are at great prices right now and even if you get a few kinked ones your buy in will not have been great so you can deal with it. If you breed snakes long enouph you will hatch a deformed one at some point.

Ryan Young

Male Ultramel

[Hypnotic Exotic]

My issue is that I have no interest whatsoever in producing any morph in great numbers. It's all about combos with me. As such, it is really frustrating to work with a recessive on combos that is likely to throw a lot of deformities (since recessive combos take a lot more effort). Granted, anything can throw a deformity but seems like caramels are more prone to. On another note, has the Ultramel Glow been produced? Would love to see a picture of one next to a Caramel Glow.

[RandyRemington]

I keep going back and forth on the caramels. I bought the fist 66% chance het male I saw for sale. Took way to long to produce possible possible het females. Gave several away. And took way to long to grow up the ones I kept. By then the ultramel's finally came to light and I also thought they would replace caramel so wasn't even going to try breeding my pos pos het females to a caramel gene male. But Marshall's point about each morph having its merits has me thinking more about something that has been bothering me for some time about caramels.

On both the kinking and the more recent rumor of possible female egg quality issues I've heard very mixed reports. I've even heard that half the imported caramels where kinked. I think if the problem could have been breed out it would have been by now. But how do you reconcile the reports of high rates of problems from some breeders and no problem at all from others?

Of the reports of no kinks out of large numbers of caramels there is a report from a breeder a trust. So I think there must be a variable between collections other than just genetics.

The theory I keep coming back to is nutrients. I've run this theory by people who actually know something about organic chemistry (I don’t) and frankly not gotten much back for encouragement so keep in mind this is just a wild unsubstantiated theory.

1. From "Nutrition and feeding of fish By Tom Lovell":

"Curvature of the spinal column is a prominent, early sign of vitamin C deficiency in finfishes." page 54

2. From http://www.becomehealthynow.com/glos...tamin_cbh.htm:

"In addition to these, the C complex contains enzymes, the outstanding one being tyrosinase. That's organic copper, an adrenal activator, If you want to rate vitamin C according to one thing, it would be logical to rate the tyrosinase. We have found that the products containing the most tyrosinase produce the best clinical results. But all of these other factors are important for the reasons mentioned, In addition to all these factors, the vitamin C complex also contains ascorbic acid. To say that ascorbic acid is vitamin C is like looking at a wheel and saying that it is an automobile, while it is just a small part of an automobile"

3. Nutritional deficiencies, both in animals and in humans, are known to alter melanin production. Copper and zinc deficiencies have been reported to induce hypopigmentation in various animals. Hypopigmentation of the skin and hair results from copper deficiency in humans; the depigmentation associated with chronic excessive molybdenum intake is related to a decreased storage of copper in the liver. Copper would seem of prime importance because tyrosinase is a known copper-requiring enzyme." Vitiligo and Other Hypomelanoses of Hair and Skin, by Jean-Paul Ortonne, M.D., Plenum Medical Book Company, NY.

So maybe the difference between breeders who report high rates of caramel kinking and bad eggs from caramel females and those that report no kinking and good eggs has to do with what brand of rat food their feeders eat?

From a little reading I've done it sounds like most animals can make their own vitamin C with the exception of the group of primates including humans, most bats, and at least some fish and guinea pigs. What if most ball pythons can make vitamin C but the caramel mutation interferes with this causing both the spinal problems and the caramel color? Since rats normally don't need vitamin c maybe some rodent foods don't contain much if any but other brands just happen to have it (maybe in case you want to feed it to your monkey or guinea pig).

[CritterVet]

I like your thinking, Randy. Definitely a ton we don't know about the morphs, and most of what we do know is anecdotal and speculative.

[TaylorS]

Nothing beats a Caramel Glow.

http://www.brockwagnerreptiles.com/i.../snake14-6.jpg

Agreed

[Ouroboros]

I'm leaning towards to the caramel - based on the photo of the ultramel next to a caramel. I don't know whether I'm getting one myself some day but I wouldn't doubt it. The caramel glow rocks!

The colors on an ultramel almost gets too 'melty' compared to a caramel. Especially on that photo with two of them only showing some of their back.

Just because some of the offspring gets a 'huge back'/'kink' then it does not mean that every single animal gets it. It's the same thing when pairing two pieds together. Just because you have two high-white parrents then it does not mean that all of the offspring is going to be high-white or even coconuts.

I'm almost certain that ultramels won't blow caramels away. They are two different animals (colors) - both looks nice and I would be glad to own one of these beautys.

[WingedWolfPsion]

I put "well, person X's caramels don't kink" in the same category as "person X's spiders don't wobble".

That category is "maybe". I don't believe it. I don't disbelieve it. I'm not going to bet money on it. Time will tell.

[Haydenphoto]

The talk that outcrossing Caramels and different lines to produce non kinked babies is just that, talk. I know of a male Caramel being bred to several Het Caramels from different lines, and the babies came out looking like someone karate chopped them in the middle.

Outcrossing MIGHT help in the long run, dry or moist incubation MIGHT help in the future, but I have talked to two big breeders about the issue, and one sold out of their Caramels completly. One is trying lower incubation temps, and less humid egg boxes.....

I will say that I feel the opposite is happening, not that the Ultramel owners are saying that Caramels kink, but that Caramel owners are saying they don't kink, or don't kink all the time.....

I know for a fact that Caramels kink, and that just because you outcross them, does not mean they will not kink.

Dave

I really think you need to do more research on what your saying !

[J.Vandegrift]

I really think you need to do more research on what your saying !

Not sure why? He is right. Caramels kink. Not every single one obviously, or not even one in every clutch, but if you produce enough caramels sooner or later you are going to produce some kinked ones.