If it's too good to be true....

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I guarantee you that there are plenty of people in your area that would be willing to pay you MORE then they would pay to the big breeders because you are local to them. They can meet you in person and look at your animals. They can ask you questions and get one on one customer service in person because you are THE local breeder.

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I agree with this part. I'd rather pay 25% on top of market price to be able to go to my local reptile specialty shop or local breeder and look at the babies they bred themselves than order off the internet. There are too many variables for me to feel comfortable doing that (shipping, DOA, not being able to see it, the breeder being out of state, etc.). I'm sure there are other buyers who feel the same way in your area :)

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Originally Posted by JLC

Why do people put such a spin on common marketing techniques? Does Rolex screw the little guy because they don't sell diamond and gold watches for the price of a Timex at Walmart?

YOU price your animals however you think best. Why not give them away for free? Not everyone can afford $25 for a snake...should they suffer or be "screwed" because they happen to not have that much money?

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i breed tropical first also and i have giving away plenty of offdpring to people that cant afford,i would give away a snake in a heartbeat to someone that would appreciate it.
i also would probably pay over market value for a snake i like,but does that mean there is a market in my area for that certain morph(no!)as i said before it depends on the market in your area,the petsmarts around here dont get balls because the dont sell,my local petstore still has the same normal juvies they haf for a while,an a few local breeders have had the same snakes advertise for a long time.
dont get me wrong if your area alllows you to charge higher prices,the by all means make your money,but any business has to adjust their market

I'm guessing you meant tropical fish.

The fish market sucks.

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Originally Posted by Slashmaster

I agree with this part. I'd rather pay 25% on top of market price to be able to go to my local reptile specialty shop or local breeder and look at the babies they bred themselves than order off the internet. There are too many variables for me to feel comfortable doing that (shipping, DOA, not being able to see it, the breeder being out of state, etc.). I'm sure there are other buyers who feel the same way in your area :)

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i agree with that part too,i would rather deal locally,but none of my local breeders had what i wanted.

@mike the average person who buys a normal baby from petco has no idea of kingsnake or the market. This is why they buy them. If they knew about the market then they would know they were getting screwed and would also know that they could get one for 12 to 18 bucks. Or they are complete impulse buyers and had no intention of buying one till they walked in there. I do agree with you about not undercutting yourself.

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

I'm guessing you meant tropical fish.

The fish market sucks.

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thanks for the correction.
just like in certain areas the bp market sucks,and in certan areas its great,thats how the world works,whats a good business in certain places may not be good in other places.
dont get me wrong i love bp,s and would keep them regardless even if i never breed them,but if your purpose is to breed to make money you have to adjust to your market.

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

i would give away a snake in a heartbeat to someone that would appreciate it.

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And there is nothing wrong with that. I have done it a few times... but I can tell you this much... they got a normal. NOT a $500 snake. LOL, even my mom... when she got one, do you know what she got? A male normal.

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

i also would probably pay over market value for a snake i like,but does that mean there is a market in my area for that certain morph(no!)

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I assure you, assuming your listed location is still your location, there are PLENTY of people in your immediate area that would be more then willing to pay for quality animals. I know that for a fact.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

@mike the average person who buys a normal baby from petco has no idea of kingsnake or the market. This is why they buy them. If they knew about the market then they would know they were getting screwed and would also know that they could get one for 12 to 18 bucks. Or they are complete impulse buyers and had no intention of buying one till they walked in there.

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Wrong. There is absolutely a dollar value for being able to find an animal and look at it an animal in person, and be able to buy it and take delivery immediately. Not everyone paying higher then internet prices at petco or petshops is unaware of kingsnake or the market. Not even most or average. I for one have NO problem buying a ball python at petco or the local pet shop for higher prices. Does that mean I am getting screwed? Does it mean I am an impulse buyer? Absolutely Not. It means there is good reason for being willing to fork out the extra bucks for that snake immediately.

if its a fact,then why dont any petstore around sell bps except one and they will only sell normals,because and i qoute"our average customer doesnt know what a morph is"the owner(who i deal with in fish)even went with me to hamburg(bought 8 normals to sell at his shop)he still has all except one and is selling them for 25,maybe in norfh jersey the market is better,but in south jersey the market sucks

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

And there is nothing wrong with that. I have done it a few times... but I can tell you this much... they got a normal. NOT a $500 snake. LOL, even my mom... when she got one, do you know what she got? A male normal.



I assure you, assuming your listed location is still your location, there are PLENTY of people in your immediate area that would be more then willing to pay for quality animals. I know that for a fact.



Wrong. There is absolutely a dollar value for being able to find an animal and look at it an animal in person, and be able to buy it and take delivery immediately. Not everyone paying higher then internet prices at petco or petshops is unaware of kingsnake or the market. Not even most or average. I for one have NO problem buying a ball python at petco or the local pet shop for higher prices. Does that mean I am getting screwed? Does it mean I am an impulse buyer? Absolutely Not. It means there is good reason for being willing to fork out the extra bucks for that snake immediately.

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Yes it does mean your getting screwed cause if you knew the market then you would know the animals at petsmart are usually imports fresh out of the crate. petsmart and petco are not going to buy your 40 dollar normal captive bred babies and sell them for 80 bucks when they can buy them for 12 bucks or lower and sell them for 80 bucks. If you are trying to get these people to believe the quality is better at pet stores then from the breeder then good luck with that. I used to sell babies to pet stores. I would get baby balls for 8 bucks a piece by the hundred bags along with bags of emperor scorpions and 6 dollar savanah monitors freshly imported and sell them straight to the pet stores. I know what they buy. I stopped wholesaling and import flipping years ago but its still the same racket. You are net getting quality at all when you buy from big box pet stores.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Yes it does mean your getting screwed cause if you knew the market then you would know the animals at petsmart are usually imports fresh out of the crate. petsmart and petco are not going to buy your 40 dollar normal captive bred babies and sell them for 80 bucks when they can buy them for 12 bucks or lower and sell them for 80 bucks. If you are trying to get these people to believe the quality is better at pet stores then from the breeder then good luck with that. I used to sell babies to pet stores. I would get baby balls for 8 bucks a piece by the hundred bags along with bags of emperor scorpions and 6 dollar savanah monitors freshly imported and sell them straight to the pet stores. I know what they buy. I stopped wholesaling and import flipping years ago but its still the same racket. You are net getting quality at all when you buy from big box pet stores.

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LOL, how did I know this was coming... another explanation of how experienced you are.... While at the same time proving once again that you really don't have a clue.

So let me get this right... BECAUSE some petco snakes are imported, that means that if I find one that sparks my interest enough to pay the high petco prices, I am getting screwed? Oh yeah, and it means that I don't know the market too? Does this same logic apply when I decide to pay $300 for a female pastel from a local breeder on craigslist because she looks special or perfect to me? Am I getting screwed and don't know the market again because I am not paying the $150 kingsnake price?

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

if its a fact,then why dont any petstore around sell bps except one and they will only sell normals,because and i qoute"our average customer doesnt know what a morph is"the owner(who i deal with in fish)even went with me to hamburg(bought 8 normals to sell at his shop)he still has all except one and is selling them for 25,maybe in norfh jersey the market is better,but in south jersey the market sucks

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Correct me if I am wrong... you are basing your assumption that nobody wants ball python morphs in your area because your local fish store shop owner has not had success selling them in the past?

Post a craigslist post in community section advertising a morph at kingsnake plus 25% pricing. Post good pictures, with a good description. Give it some time. If it is a decent example of the morph you will get plenty of inquirys.

I wouldn't necessarily avoid a low priced snake, if the people I'm buying from seem to have it together. Having a good, professional website set up really goes a long way with me. I actually bought my bumblebee male from someone I found on a craigslist. They didn't have prices listed, but when I emailed them to check, they said $250 for the male (which was actually a discount from their original price). I wouldn't have bothered (and certainly wouldn't have driven 3 hours) if they hadn't had a website. I'm not saying that I wouldn't buy from someone without a website, it just makes me a lot more comfortable for some reason. But if I saw a $100 albino, I'd probably avoid it unless I knew them personally. XD

I'm glad I ended up driving up to get him. Aside from cutting me a good deal, they let me have my pick of the clucth (aside from one really nice male they had marked higher). I also got a 100% het albino female for $40 from them as well. The lady was really nice, showed me all of her breeders and answered all of my questions. I would buy again from them in a heartbeat. They're in the same situation as you, just started breeding recently.

Long story short, I agree with advertising locally. Even if you don't list rock-bottom prices on craigslist, I think people will be much more willing to take a chance on a new breeder that they can actually meet in person and see the snake and facility before purchasing.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Correct me if I am wrong... you are basing your assumption that nobody wants ball python morphs in your area because your local fish store shop owner has not had success selling them in the past?

Post a craigslist post in community section advertising a morph at kingsnake plus 25% pricing. Post good pictures, with a good description. Give it some time. If it is a decent example of the morph you will get plenty of inquirys.

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no not at all when i was looking to get into bps,i search locally for a long time included craigslist southjersey(which hardly ever has any bp ads)i ran into few local breeders(found them on fauna)but the selection was abit slim(although one local guy had some great black pastels)but i dont like black pastels.
i would love to deal locally(closest show to me is 2 hours each way)but the market just isnt there.believe me i have looked for a good local breeder,hell the money i dont spend on gas and shipping,and tolls,i could use to by more bps.

[QUOTE=Mike Cavanaugh;1672434]LOL, how did I know this was coming... another explanation of how experienced you are.... While at the same time proving once again that you really don't have a clue.

So let me get this right... BECAUSE some petco snakes are imported, that means that if I find one that sparks my interest enough to pay the high petco prices, I am getting screwed? Oh yeah, and it means that I don't know the market too? Does this same logic apply when I decide to pay $300 for a female pastel from a local breeder on craigslist because she looks special or perfect to me? Am I getting screwed and don't know the market again because I am not paying the $150 kingsnake price?[/QUOTE


Again yes and yes. You are not going to find anything intresting out of a petco import. There are guys in africa that hand pick the animals to be exported to the us. They grade them then they ship them. Then once hitting the states the importer then goes through them. If there was anything substantial then it would have been picked out therefore the animals that finally find themselves in the death cages of local big box stores are nothing more then 10 dollar normals so based on the quality your getting there you most certainlly are getting screwed if your paying those prices at the store. I run craigslist ads every year when i want to sell my normals that were peoduced in my breedings and i sell them for 25 bucks across the boards males or females. I know i can get that from craigslist. I cant get that on kingsnake cause there are peiple selling them for 18 bucks or lower and ya still got to factor shipping in. Therefore i price them aggresively on craigslist to blow em out. Heres another example, i sell my regular stuff that come out of clutches like the spiders and pastels at a lower then going market price so i can free up rack space and that way i dont have to feed animals longer so i can wait for a little more money. Am i crushing the market? No way. Are people sending me hate mail? No way. Am i selling em fast? Yes i am, are my customers happy? You bet they are. My quality is just as good as anyone elses but some animals just arent worth it to sit and hold on to them longer then i want to. The thing you have to and everyone else has to realize is that just cause you see a price tag, it doesnt mean the animals are selling for that. The market is based on what the animals sell for not what the asking prices are. So yes mike i do have a clue.

well people ,i have to sign off now.
(i am a guest artist at a local shop and have an 11 oclock appointment)
great debate hope it stays friendly and interesting lots of points of views,just shows how different we are yet we all love our bp's.
let me start this tattoo talk to you guys in the am.:)

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Again yes and yes. You are not going to find anything intresting out of a petco import. .... So yes mike i do have a clue.

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Ummmm....here's where you're messed up. You seem to think (based on your own words) that it's up to YOU how Mike (or anyone else) should value their animals. You don't "have a clue" how Mike chooses to value his animals or what he might look for and find value in even a typical petco type store. Just because YOU don't see value in those animals doesn't mean they don't have value.

Personally, I've seen a few examples over the years of very very nice "normal" ball pythons at petco and petsmart and even at petland (ick)....that had I been able to at the time, I would have gladly paid their retail price for. (Well, honestly I wouldn't buy ANYthing from petland, but that's an entirely different topic.)

Wow this has really helped me understand the ball python market. But I do have a concern, and it might be the reason why ASPCA and humane societies dont do reptile adoptions, kinda like houston spca uses a herp center to take in reptiles. My question is this.

A friend and I have stated a reptile rescue group, and we have been debating for about a month month now what a rehoming fee should be. At first we are talking $35 for a female spider, strick on not selling for breeding, how ever we understand this is not stoppable,and the chance of a breeder seeing it that low or some one that tthinks they can flip it and make money. Obviously we are unable to spay or nuetur the animals. We are putting together an application and interview program. for adoptees. We have brainstormed even providing propper enclosuers and other equipment needed as well as 4 feedings worth of food and upping the fee to maybe $85

Also, there's been cases right here on BP.net of someone going into a petco/petsmart/whatever chain store and coming out with a morph(low grade, but a morph). It happens on occasion. And some of the normals they get in are spectacular normals, I've seen some really nice ones. Does that mean it's a rip off?

And to begin with, saying that it's worth it for a person to be able to walk out with their snake, vs having it shipped, doesn't at all mean the QUALITY is better than online. Plenty of people even on here have popped up saying "I just got XX at my local store..." meaning they almost definitely overpaid if you compare to expo prices. But they're all happy because they SAW the snake, SAW the price and were happy to pay it. These are folks that have been to expos and know about online sales and still were happy to buy their animal locally.

Marking a price up from kingsnake's average to sell it locally is often still a bargain because it's safer to buy a "in hand" snake, vs trusting a seller online to ship it to you... and you save the shipping cost which now can run you $70+.

Selling normals (esp males) locally or to petstores as wholesale is almost the only way to move them, because they're so low priced to begin with. But that doesn't mean that you should dump all the prices to $5 each and assume there's no market for them.

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Originally Posted by crepers86

Wow this has really helped me understand the ball python market. But I do have a concern, and it might be the reason why ASPCA and humane societies dont do reptile adoptions, kinda like houston spca uses a herp center to take in reptiles. My question is this.

A friend and I have stated a reptile rescue group, and we have been debating for about a month month now what a rehoming fee should be. At first we are talking $35 for a female spider, strick on not selling for breeding, how ever we understand this is not stoppable,and the chance of a breeder seeing it that low or some one that tthinks they can flip it and make money. Obviously we are unable to spay or nuetur the animals. We are putting together an application and interview program. for adoptees. We have brainstormed even providing propper enclosuers and other equipment needed as well as 4 feedings worth of food and upping the fee to maybe $85

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It's going to be nearly impossible to enforce a "no breeding" rule. And honestly, why would you? If it's a healthy animal, and they have a market for the babies, why would you insist it remain only a pet? I've never quite understood it. I mean, I understand if it's a mutt dog of unknown origin(unknown genetics) and no real value to any pups produced, etc. But it's a python, and if it's a spider, it'll look like a spider and be a spider. There's not a ton of unknowns to a BP.

I would definitely think about providing a proper set up with each reptile you "adopt out". Put together what a person needs, add up the $$ amount you spend on it and add that to the adoption fee, or outright sell the set-up and include the animal as a "free adoption". You'll be certain they start out with the right set-up, they'll value the animal if they've spent a little money on it and the reputation of your rescue as someone who makes CERTAIN the animals are taken care of even after you adopt them will be worth it.

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Originally Posted by JLC

Ummmm....here's where you're messed up. You seem to think (based on your own words) that it's up to YOU how Mike (or anyone else) should value their animals. You don't "have a clue" how Mike chooses to value his animals or what he might look for and find value in even a typical petco type store. Just because YOU don't see value in those animals doesn't mean they don't have value.

Personally, I've seen a few examples over the years of very very nice "normal" ball pythons at petco and petsmart and even at petland (ick)....that had I been able to at the time, I would have gladly paid their retail price for. (Well, honestly I wouldn't buy ANYthing from petland, but that's an entirely different topic.)

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I understand personal connection pet wise whatever. Forgive me if im wrong but this whole thread was about worth as in value $$$$$ and quality. Dollar for dollar if you are saying that those imported babies at petco are worth the 80 bucks people are spending. So to clear it up are we talking worth as in money or worth in some other way. All im saying is value wise your getting ripped off at those prices. Would you buy a pure bred dog from a pet store where you know they come from puppy mills or would you buy from a reputable breeder? Reptiles are no different. And this is why ive said in other threads i dont think pet stores should sell either. Thats just my oppinion. But again this thread was about market value and the balls at those stores are way below market value quality

Well, this was my first year breeding and I did not have any problems selling my snakes. I did not sell them at market value because I was not ready website, shipping, etc. I am using the money I have accumulated to get situated with the marketing side of my animals for 2012.

I also did not sell albinos for $100. I went the wholesale route this year with local pet stores that I have worked with and sold them snakes at the wholesale prices that they were paying from distributors. Most BP Morphs are not marked up 100% at Pet stores so you can much more than $100 for an albino.

Some of the customers even contact me now regarding genetics, breeding, husbandry, etc. So I am slowly but surely getting my name out there just not on the internet just yet.

If all else fails there are plenty of people out there willing to buy entire clutches. You have to give it a try before you sell for 1/3 the going price.

Even though it is a hobby at this time you should still sit down and try to come up with a sound business plan. Unfortunately, the thought process in this hobby extends past which male am I pairing with this female.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I understand personal connection pet wise whatever.

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I wasn't talking about some emotional connection to a pet. I was talking about business value. Yes, you have your opinion on the matter....but where you are going wrong is not your opinion...it's that you seem to insist on stating your opinion as some hard-and-fast rule that must apply to everyone who reads it.

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Forgive me if im wrong but this whole thread was about worth as in value $$$$$ and quality.

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Actually, the thread was originally about how should a "new breeder" price their animals in order to be able to make sales.

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But again this thread was about market value and the balls at those stores are way below market value quality

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Mike's point was merely that that fact that people are WILLING to spend $80 on a normal, unsexed, imported ball python from a pet store should be an indication that the market for local sales is strong.

After you attacked the premise with the left-field argument that all petstore purchases are ripoffs, some of us tried to demonstrate to you that not ALL such purchases are "ripoffs".

What you choose to take away from the discussion is entirely up to you. I get the feeling you rarely ever walk away from a discussion one word richer than the ones you yourself contributed.

First of all i never attacked. Second of all if a store is selling a product for alot more money then market value and that product is lesser quality then how can you say the people buying that product is not getting ripped off? Lol seriouslly. So in your argument it makes sence to buy a less quality animal for a higher price from petco? I understand the point mike made about the local pet store market being strong at petco and petsmart but thats also because they moved in and put the smaller mom & pop stores out so yes they sell their low quality animals to the unsuspecting customer. Now back to the original basis of this thread before it turns into another snake lab witch hunt by the usual locals, i dont see a problem with a newbie breeder or any breeder for that fact to sell some animals at a lower price. Maybe they need quick cash for projects, maybe they want or need the rack space, whatever the reason i dont think there is one big breeder that can crash any market at this stage of the game. The ball python industry alone is very strong and keeps getting stronger. My favorite time of the year is when its time to sell babies. I have a good base of customers that i deal with and people are generally easy to deal with. Its a great industry. I dont think anyone on this forum should tell someone what to price their animals for. Who cares if competition gets upset. Thats what happens in competitive markets.

What Mike is referring to is the concept of "impulse buying".

People are prone to impulse buy. It's in our genetics. If it is right in front of us, we don't have to wait, and it looks good, often we will spend the money and get it for instant gratification.

LOTS of people do this. Even those that are well informed. You ask how many people from this forum have paid to get a snake from a pet store. Even if it was just to "save" it. I'm sure there would be a decent list.

Believe me i understand impulse buying way too much. They put a bass pro down the street and i swear ive already put some of the kids that work there through college already. Yea i get the point and agree with it. I guess i am just so against the quality of the animals they have and how they keep them. Everytime i go in a petco to buy dogfood i always walk by the snakes and see poor examples of what they are selling. And because of the level of care and money i put into my collection there is no way i could justify spending the kind of money they charge. Now you guys may have better stores i dont know but every single one in the area here is horrible

Thanks Snake Lab. LOL @ bass pro story.

And some Petcos are actually a little better, mine is. Most aren't. Agree to that.

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

everyone doesnt have the ability to spend over market value for certain animals,so as a business person should i say screw the little guy because i feel as though becuase they dont have alot of money they dont desrve quality .

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I don't understand your point. I'm not going to de-value my animals because I'm worried about the little guy. If the "little guy" wants what I have to sell, he'll find a way. But I'm not lowering my price to help some mythical "little guy". My work, my animals are worth more than that.

I was a "little guy" once before, but I didn't whine and complain about the prices. I just planned ahead.

This generation is too wrapped up in instant gratification. Sometimes you have to work a little bit and wait a little bit to get what you want.

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

no not at all when i was looking to get into bps,i search locally for a long time included craigslist southjersey(which hardly ever has any bp ads)i ran into few local breeders(found them on fauna)but the selection was abit slim(although one local guy had some great black pastels)but i dont like black pastels.
i would love to deal locally(closest show to me is 2 hours each way)but the market just isnt there.believe me i have looked for a good local breeder,hell the money i dont spend on gas and shipping,and tolls,i could use to by more bps.

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Ok, so again, let me get this right. :D Now you are declaring that there is no local market to buy your hatchlings because 1.) your local fish store owner said he didn't have much luck selling morph ball pythons. and 2.) When you were in the market to buy a new morph yourself you had a hard time finding any quality animals in your area. Correct?

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Again yes and yes. You are not going to find anything intresting out of a petco import. There are guys in africa that hand pick the animals to be exported to the us. They grade them then they ship them. Then once hitting the states the importer then goes through them. If there was anything substantial then it would have been picked out.

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Ah, so the expert in africa and the export importer are the ones that are able to sort through thousands of normals, removing every possible snake worthy of a dinker project with any of my existing animals. Man, those guys must good.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I run craigslist ads every year when i want to sell my normals that were peoduced in my breedings and i sell them for 25 bucks across the boards males or females.

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So let me get this right... I am getting screwed and I don't know the market because I am willing to pay more then kingsnake prices locally... But your expert knowledge in the market tells you that your NOT getting screwed when selling your normals locally for $25 each on craigslist? You do realize that MANY of us get considerably more then that for normals on craigslist right? I made 42 normals this year. I sold all of them locally for $35 for males and $45 for females. As of today I have 2 left. Oh wait, let me guess... so now you think I am ripping people off right?

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Heres another example, i sell my regular stuff that come out of clutches like the spiders and pastels at a lower then going market price so i can free up rack space and that way i dont have to feed animals longer so i can wait for a little more money.

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Again, your the expert and I don't have a clue... You are selling your animals for less then "market". I am selling mine for on average 15 - 25% above kingsnake prices. Acording to you, that is because I either 1.) dont know the market or 2.) am ripping people off.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

thing you have to and everyone else has to realize is that just cause you see a price tag, it doesnt mean the animals are selling for that. The market is based on what the animals sell for not what the asking prices are. So yes mike i do have a clue.

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Thing you have to realize ESPECIALLY in the local market is when I have a snake for sale for $200, and you offer me $150 declaring that is the fair price because it can be purchased on kingsnake for $125, I can say "NO"... And there is nothing you can do about it.

Sure you can go elsewhere and pay the $125 kingsnake price and $50 shipping and get your animal in a couple weeks when the weather clears... That is fine with me.

Do you know why I can say No? I can say no because I have quality animals... I can say no because every single year I sell everything I make for what I want to sell it for. In fact, I have not had a single hatchling make it to the Christmas season yet. Hmmm... Maybe my prices are too low?!

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Originally Posted by JLC

Mike's point was merely that that fact that people are WILLING to spend $80 on a normal, unsexed, imported ball python from a pet store should be an indication that the market for local sales is strong.

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Thank you. Nice to see that someone understands what I am saying... :gj:

Yes mike there are guys that sort through the animals in africa and yes they are good at what they do. They arent bush wackers with no clue. They know the animals better then you or i. And unless you werent paying attention i blow certain animals out so i dont have to sit on them and feed them any longer then i have to. Its all about turn around. When breeding and producing large quantities of animals there are certain animals i have to blow out quick unless i have a show coming up then i will put them up on the tables and whatever doesnt sell i will try and wholesale em to other vendors. I totally get what your saying about local markets. I just dont get how you can say the petco animals are more quality animals then what a breeder of captive bred animals provides im not going to get into a pissing match with you over it because you come back every time with me qouting experience.

Okay, I have to chime in and back up Buddha. I'm in Jersey too, and when I started looking for morphs, I found very little in NJ in the way of breeders. I did my research and looked on fauna and kingsnake and here, basically just trying to find someone local where I can go and touch and see the animals, but there really, truly was nothing like there is in other states (god, I wish I lived in CA, FL or TX!!). I did EVENTUALLY find a random person here and there who happened to be selling something and I ran across a breeder who's somewhat local. But even that was difficult and complicated and they don't always have what I'm looking for.

But that ties in directly to what Mike said - if someone were local, I'd happily pay a little over market to avoid shipping nervousness and to actually go see the animals. Through bp.net, I've managed to network with a lot of NJ people, which is fantastic, so hopefully we can get something started here, lol!

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I don't understand your point. I'm not going to de-value my animals because I'm worried about the little guy. If the "little guy" wants what I have to sell, he'll find a way. But I'm not lowering my price to help some mythical "little guy". My work, my animals are worth more than that.

I was a "little guy" once before, but I didn't whine and complain about the prices. I just planned ahead.

This generation is too wrapped up in instant gratification. Sometimes you have to work a little bit and wait a little bit to get what you want.

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My point is you dont have to devalue your animals they are your animals put as much value on them as you want.
but your value of them and my value of them are totally different.
for example i dont like black pastels and i dont care how much you put a value on them i wont buy it.
now as for them "mythical" little guy,hell i still consider myself the little guy and i own three businesses and am about to open my forth(a tattoo shop),i dont devalue the hard working little guys because i believe with out the mythical little guy there would not be any of alot of industries(bp's,tattoos,walmart,pet supplies etc).
how much would your spectacular pastel top show quality morph be worth if no one bought it(money wise its worthless)to you as a pet it might be priceless but thats to you.
i have always tried to remain humble and am very greatful for all the blessings i have worked hard to get,and i try to treat each an every customer with respect and just because i made it i would never place myself above the little guy,the little guy buying the $25 tattoo of his childs name means just as much to me as the guy paying me by the hour to get his entire back done.
guess my view on how to treat my customers is not standard business practice.
i dont see any problem with give people a break sometimes,people work hard for their money and would like to enjoy certain things in life(as i do)and i feel better about reducing my prices alittle bit to accomadate a wider range of people than haveing people walk away because i am not flexable.
i love competition, if the tattoo shop a few blocks away starts doing 20 dollar names and there customer are happy with the quality do you think i am not going to try to beat him at his own game(yes i will)business is business.
Good quality for a good price will give you a good reputation everytime.
Of course you still have to make a profit so you can only go but so low.but if you can go lower an still make a profit why not.
If i buy a pair of hets proven breeders(for albino)for 150 dollars and they produces 6 eggs(2 albinos maybe 4 hets)and i sell the 4 hets for 50=200 and then sell the albinos for 150 each=300 thats 350 i made from 150(of course minus food say for exaample sake minus 100,)thats 250,i just doubled my money and still was able to sell below market value. can some one explain why that would be wrong(mind you this is just and example i know the odds might not happen that way)

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I just dont get how you can say the petco animals are more quality animals then what a breeder of captive bred animals provides im not going to get into a pissing match with you over it because you come back every time with me qouting experience.

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You can't get it because no one said it. He used the petco example to demonstrate the strength of a market and the value of a hands-on purchase...then when you twisted those words around to change the argument, he answered your new argument to say that you CAN SOMETIMES find genuine quality animals worth spending $80. No one said all petco ball pythons are more valuable than captive bred from good breeders...but that seems to be the point you want to argue.

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Originally Posted by JulieInNJ

... and when I started looking for morphs, I found very little in NJ in the way of breeders. ...

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In that case, it sounds to me like you've got an excellent opportunity to build a business in a market with a void. I wouldn't see that as a down-side at all. :gj:

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

....,and i try to treat each an every customer with respect and just because i made it i would never place myself above the little guy,the little guy buying the $25 tattoo of his childs name means just as much to me as the guy paying me by the hour to get his entire back done.
guess my view on how to treat my customers is not standard business practice.

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Where did anyone here indicate that they don't value EVERY customer (those that can spend small dollars as well as those that can spend bigger). Why do you think anyone here doesn't treat their customers with respect and gratitude?

Based on your earlier post, you should be giving that full back tat away for $25 to the guy who could only afford the name. Are you being disrespectful or ungracious because you don't do his full back for $25?

No one ever said there was anything wrong with giving breaks to people either...but such things are done on a case-by-case basis. You don't build a successful business by giving your product away to everyone who wants it but can't afford it.

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Originally Posted by JulieInNJ

Okay, I have to chime in and back up Buddha. I'm in Jersey too, and when I started looking for morphs, I found very little in NJ in the way of breeders. I did my research and looked on fauna and kingsnake and here, basically just trying to find someone local where I can go and touch and see the animals, but there really, truly was nothing like there is in other states (god, I wish I lived in CA, FL or TX!!). I did EVENTUALLY find a random person here and there who happened to be selling something and I ran across a breeder who's somewhat local. But even that was difficult and complicated and they don't always have what I'm looking for.

But that ties in directly to what Mike said - if someone were local, I'd happily pay a little over market to avoid shipping nervousness and to actually go see the animals. Through bp.net, I've managed to network with a lot of NJ people, which is fantastic, so hopefully we can get something started here, lol!

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i think mike thinks because were he lives the market is good that it is like that every were,but it is not,i too have connected with a few folks from nj that feels the same as i do the bp market around us is just almost none existent,if it wasnt for shows or online vendors i wouldnt even be on this forum.
I already stated i would rather deal locally and i would pay a little more but it would have to be what i wanted,most breeders i ran into had spiders,normals,pastels,and black pastels and i did run into a breeder that had one fire but it was a male and i really am looking for a nice female.
so in our area i doubt very seriously that there is a big market for 1200 dollar bps.
I am just glad this is a hobby for me and not a way of life because if it was in this area that would be a rough road to travel.

jlc
i also stated that you still have to make a profit(if you are going to quote me quote the whole thing)but if you can go lower and still make a profit why not.
I can give away tattoos and still make a living,just did a portrait for a fellow who lost his child to an accident i didnt know him i just heard him talking about it(costme three hours,4 needles a ounce of ink. Cost him nothing the gratitude when he looked at it for the first time in the mirror was payment enough,so dont pretend to know me by qouting parts of what i said.
In the long run business is business of course,no i couldnt give away all my tattoos for free,but i damn sure and do them with just as much quality and meaning for Under market value(dictated by some one elses version of market value) i am not an will not charge what another tattoo artist or shop says i should so they dont have to lower their prices.If they cant deal with the competition than they dont need to be in a competative business.

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

jlc
i also stated that you still have to make a profit(if you are going to quote me quote the whole thing)but if you can go lower and still make a profit why not.
I can give away tattoos and still make a living,just did a portrait for a fellow who lost his child to an accident i didnt know him i just heard him talking about it(costme three hours,4 needles a ounce of ink. Cost him nothing the gratitude when he looked at it for the first time in the mirror was payment enough,so dont pretend to know me by qouting parts of what i said.
In the long run business is business of course,no i couldnt give away all my tattoos for free,but i damn sure and do them with just as much quality and meaning for Under market value(dictated by some one elses version of market value) i am not an will not charge what another tattoo artist or shop says i should so they dont have to lower their prices.If they cant deal with the competition than they dont need to be in a competative business.

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And that's all well and good. I know many people who have given away free snakes to those who lost snakes in tragedies...even expensive morphs are sometimes given away for free.

What gets to me about your arguments is not that you are generous or you feel a need to price your service lower than "market value"....it's that you imply that everyone else should do the same, and if they don't, then they are somehow bad people (not grateful and not respectful of their customers) if they place a higher value on their product than you do.

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Originally Posted by JulieInNJ

Okay, I have to chime in and back up Buddha. I'm in Jersey too, and when I started looking for morphs, I found very little in NJ in the way of breeders. I did my research and looked on fauna and kingsnake and here, basically just trying to find someone local where I can go and touch and see the animals, but there really, truly was nothing like there is in other states (god, I wish I lived in CA, FL or TX!!). I did EVENTUALLY find a random person here and there who happened to be selling something and I ran across a breeder who's somewhat local. But even that was difficult and complicated and they don't always have what I'm looking for.

But that ties in directly to what Mike said - if someone were local, I'd happily pay a little over market to avoid shipping nervousness and to actually go see the animals. Through bp.net, I've managed to network with a lot of NJ people, which is fantastic, so hopefully we can get something started here, lol!

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

i think mike thinks because were he lives the market is good that it is like that every were,but it is not,i too have connected with a few folks from nj that feels the same as i do the bp market around us is just almost none existent,if it wasnt for shows or online vendors i wouldnt even be on this forum.
I already stated i would rather deal locally and i would pay a little more but it would have to be what i wanted,most breeders i ran into had spiders,normals,pastels,and black pastels and i did run into a breeder that had one fire but it was a male and i really am looking for a nice female.
so in our area i doubt very seriously that there is a big market for 1200 dollar bps.
I am just glad this is a hobby for me and not a way of life because if it was in this area that would be a rough road to travel.

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Ok, I have to jump in here as a NJ BPer. I do believe that the NJ market is stronger than it appears. There are some really good BP breeders here who I think just keep a low or non-existent online profile. I've gotten all of my BPs from local breeders.

I've gotten 11 out of 14 of my snakes (i have 2 new BP's on hold :D) from Tom Agosta/8 Legs Plus who is right in central NJ. Two of my snakes I got through Tom from this guy Steve who is in NNJ. I got one of my snakes from Frank Martin who I believe is also central NJ (I grabbed it at the White Plains show). I really can't say enough good things about Tom and the quality animals he produces (BP's, colubrids, spiders). He'll be at Hamburg on Saturday. Definitely grab one of his cards.

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Originally Posted by Chris633

Ok, I have to jump in here as a NJ BPer. I do believe that the NJ market is stronger than it appears. There are some really good BP breeders here who I think just keep a low or non-existent online profile. I've gotten all of my BPs from local breeders.

I've gotten 11 out of 14 of my snakes (i have 2 new BP's on hold :D) from Tom Agosta/8 Legs Plus who is right in central NJ. Two of my snakes I got through Tom from this guy Steve who is in NNJ. I got one of my snakes from Frank Martin who I believe is also central NJ (I grabbed it at the White Plains show). I really can't say enough good things about Tom and the quality animals he produces (BP's, colubrids, spiders). He'll be at Hamburg on Saturday. Definitely grab one of his cards.

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Fantastic info!!! Thanks a million billion times!!!

You guys and gals that are saying "mike doesn't know what he is talking about... the local BP market here is awefull... I can't find a local breeder with quality animals anywere close to me...." are missing the point completely.

The lack of breeders is the REASON why you should be able to move your animals very easily with the locals.

Lets not forget about John Stranahan(JasBalls) in NJ, who has close to 700 ball pythons. Nj has A LOT of breeders there, just cause you dont see them for sale locally, dont mean their not there.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Lets not forget about John Stranahan(JasBalls) in NJ, who has close to 700 ball pythons. Nj has A LOT of breeders there, just cause you dont see them for sale locally, dont mean their not there.

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I tried to contact him. He blew me off. But that brings up a good point. How DO you find them? I did all kinds of searches and came up empty.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

You guys and gals that are saying "mike doesn't know what he is talking about... the local BP market here is awefull... I can't find a local breeder with quality animals anywere close to me...." are missing the point completely.

The lack of breeders is the REASON why you should be able to move your animals very easily with the locals.

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I agree completely, especially since a lot of this discussion has been centering around NJ. There are great breeders locally who keep a low profile here in NJ. So the market is wide open for those who want to be out in the open. And I plan on taking full advantage of that in a few years :D

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Originally Posted by JulieInNJ

I tried to contact him. He blew me off.

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Hes not computer savy, can be slow to reply to messages as he gets a lot of them daily. Just keep contacting him, and say Rich sent you.

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Originally Posted by Chris633

I agree completely, especially since a lot of this discussion has been centering around NJ. There are great breeders locally who keep a low profile here in NJ. So the market is wide open for those who want to be out in the open. And I plan on taking full advantage of that in a few years :D

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Well better have good locks on your collection. Being well known is one thing, but being well known locally and where collection resides is asking for trouble with thieves.

I think there are so many new people coming into this hobby everyday that it really doesn't matter whether you're new or not.

Newbs don't know what to look for and newb sellers are there every spring.

Do what you feel is right and ignore everyone else. If you're happy with what you're doing nothing else is important.

Look at KS or Fauna, even here to a smaller extent, and you'll first time breeders with prices that are pretty much market. So long as the seller knows what they're talking about, can take a decent picture and doesn't have a bad guy thread on the BOI, they ALL seem to sell.

Worrying now over what may or may not happen someday may not be the best use of your snake time.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Hes not computer savy, can be slow to reply to messages as he gets a lot of them daily. Just keep contacting him, and say Rich sent you.

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Yeah, that's the ONLY reason he'd blow someone off....

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Hes not computer savy, can be slow to reply to messages as he gets a lot of them daily. Just keep contacting him, and say Rich sent you.

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Thanks! ...wonder if he's interested in hiring someone who IS computer savy and loves bps, lol!!!

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Well better have good locks on your collection. Being well known is one thing, but being well known locally and where collection resides is asking for trouble with thieves.

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And this is why I have two guard dogs... LOL!

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Well better have good locks on your collection. Being well known is one thing, but being well known locally and where collection resides is asking for trouble with thieves.

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Fair point. I guess it is all about striking a balance. Being known but also not be careless/reckless. I don't think I would ever want to invite strangers into me home for just that reason.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

You guys and gals that are saying "mike doesn't know what he is talking about... the local BP market here is awefull... I can't find a local breeder with quality animals anywere close to me...." are missing the point completely.

The lack of breeders is the REASON why you should be able to move your animals very easily with the locals.

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We have the opposite problem here. We have alot of local breeders like outback, sharp,kahl, morph makers, just to name a few so its pretty competitive on the morphs but our local big box stores are horrible. So it does allow for dumpin normals pretty easy. And mike i apoligize you do have a clue lol

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Originally Posted by buddha1200

My point is you dont have to devalue your animals they are your animals put as much value on them as you want.
but your value of them and my value of them are totally different.
for example i dont like black pastels and i dont care how much you put a value on them i wont buy it.
now as for them "mythical" little guy,hell i still consider myself the little guy and i own three businesses and am about to open my forth(a tattoo shop),i dont devalue the hard working little guys because i believe with out the mythical little guy there would not be any of alot of industries(bp's,tattoos,walmart,pet supplies etc).
how much would your spectacular pastel top show quality morph be worth if no one bought it(money wise its worthless)to you as a pet it might be priceless but thats to you.
i have always tried to remain humble and am very greatful for all the blessings i have worked hard to get,and i try to treat each an every customer with respect and just because i made it i would never place myself above the little guy,the little guy buying the $25 tattoo of his childs name means just as much to me as the guy paying me by the hour to get his entire back done.
guess my view on how to treat my customers is not standard business practice.
i dont see any problem with give people a break sometimes,people work hard for their money and would like to enjoy certain things in life(as i do)and i feel better about reducing my prices alittle bit to accomadate a wider range of people than haveing people walk away because i am not flexable.
i love competition, if the tattoo shop a few blocks away starts doing 20 dollar names and there customer are happy with the quality do you think i am not going to try to beat him at his own game(yes i will)business is business.
Good quality for a good price will give you a good reputation everytime.
Of course you still have to make a profit so you can only go but so low.but if you can go lower an still make a profit why not.
If i buy a pair of hets proven breeders(for albino)for 150 dollars and they produces 6 eggs(2 albinos maybe 4 hets)and i sell the 4 hets for 50=200 and then sell the albinos for 150 each=300 thats 350 i made from 150(of course minus food say for exaample sake minus 100,)thats 250,i just doubled my money and still was able to sell below market value. can some one explain why that would be wrong(mind you this is just and example i know the odds might not happen that way)

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To address the end of your post .... not to be blunt, but why WOULDN'T you price them a little closer to value to make more profit?

I mean, I'm one of those crazy ladies that sits there with her snake, adoring it and calling it cute even though it could give a rat's ... tail .. and then eat it. LOL, but seriously. I still see the value in my potential hatchlings and would rather make the proper amount of money for them. I bought quality breeders and therefore will produce quality animals, so why not? I'm not doing it for the money, but the money keeps me in the hobby and helps me grow my business. There are special cases yes, where if you feel the need to donate or reduce price for someone that deserves it, it is fine, but why for everyone? Why not turn more profit yourself? I just don't see the logic behind this.

You are advocating for making less money with the same amount of time invested, just because some people can't afford the higher dollar morphs (WHICH you can ship, so don't use that local argument, it's fairly easy to do so with SYR). I just don't get what your point is. They can get a pastel or a normal. Give it to them free for all I care. But why would you want to give them something you can get a little or a lot of money back into your hobby from?

if i saw something on here for a low price, id be more willing to buy it, but if it was on kingsnake, probably not. either way my biggest problem is i would have to trust that the pictures im seeing are the exact snake i would be buying