Genetic "flaws" associated with various morphs?

[envy_ld50]

Look ma no duckbill!

[covah]

So since I've been bit by the snake bug, I've been trying to plan what to get for my next snake or two..

I'm a little curious about some of the oddities encountered with some morphs, and what ones might look pretty but I might just want to stay away from, for now at least.

So I've read about spiders and spider combos, and the spinning that they do. Does this weird anyone out the way it weirds me out? Is there anyone here who doesn't keep spiders because of it? Also, what is the deal with no super spiders, do the super spider eggs go bad? Is the spider gene fatal when homozygous?

Also I've heard about "failure to thrive" for super womas(pearls? right?). Anyone want to speak more on this?

I also encountered someone mentioning funny shaped heads in super cinnamons.. what's this about?

If there's anything else I should know about specific morphs and possible problems or oddities associated with them, I'd love for someone to tell me!

Thanks!

i have a spider and a super cinny. neither i class as deformed. up to now my spider shows no sign of a wobble, my super cinny has the typical super head, and tbh it causes no problems. in fact i would go as far as to say she wouldnt look as gorgeous with a .normal. head, whatever 'normal' is!!!
both strike and eat like trains, not all my others do. is it 'normal' to starve yourself for months i wonder. have heard of the caramel kinks, but never seen these. have also heard albinos have trouble with eyes, but dont own one so wouldnt want to comment. my black pastel shows no sign of having the supers shape nose, but my yellow belly male does. and all are stunning snakes.

[Wh00h0069]

This is exactly why I challenged you on that. It is Human Nature for us to think someone that we respect words are true. When a Ball Python breeder of the caliber of Kevin McCurley, Tracy and Dave Barker, or Ralph Davis state something everyone takes it as the absolute truth. Ralph Davis was one of the earliest breeders to come out and declare a problem with the Super Black Pastel and Super Cinnamons. He states so in the link you have posted and has also posted like information on his Journal Pages. A lot of people have read this information you included. I think this is affecting your opinion. The fact that you evaluate photographs for a living makes it harder for me to believe you do. I look at the pictures at the link you are referring to and once again I am sorry but I do not see any problem with the Super Cinny in question.

As far as that goes Ralph Davis may be changing his original opinion also. When I hatched out my Silver Bullet (Super Cinnamon/Pastel) one of the first persons I sent the pictures to was Ralph. I asked him if he thought there was any problem with the nose on him. In case you do not know Ralph personally he likes to screw with you so this response was to be expected - “looks great Albey..........but if you can't see that he has the classic "platypus face"...........well...........your BLIND!! LOL........a big GRATS!!.............I love the pics of it while still in the egg. What makes them look so weird is that the head looks elongated and the cheeks not full enough...........it's an optical illusion”.

Here is said picture in egg.

Here's a good example I found on Exotics by Nature's website showing photos from Daytona 07. If you look at the link and page down, there is a group of super cinnamon photos. A good example can be seen in the head shot with the white background where you can clearly see the concave head shape. It's also easy to compare the profile with the photo above it where the snake's head is pretty much in the same position.

http://www.ballpythonmorphs.com/07daytonaphotos.html

If you check the site above, you can clearly see the duck-bill. Compare the pictures of the supers to others. It is very noticeable. Personally, I don't mind the duck bill thing. I think it makes them even more special, but I do not deny that some to have the duck bill.

[Slim]

The fact that you evaluate photographs for a living makes it harder for me to believe you do. I look at the pictures at the link you are referring to and once again I am sorry but I do not see any problem with the Super Cinny in question.

I can't tell if you misspoke in your first sentence:

1) Because it's not a gramatically correct enough sentence for me to interpret your meaning.

2) Because if you ARE trying to say that you can't believe the truth of what I'm stating about the pictures because I mensurate photos for a living, that's absurd.

I gave you the measurements I took, and povided you with the method by which I took them. I'm not looking at the picutres, I'm measuring the pictures. If you choose not to believe me, I would offer the following suggestions:

1) You can go get 24 years of mensuration experience, take your own measurements, and we can discuss the results as peers.

2) You can continue to let your eyes and heart fool you.

If you would like to continue to believe that Super Cinnys aren't showing up with abnormal snouts, that's your call. It's not my job to change your mind, I'm just presenting the facts of the measurements I took.

[covah]

If you would like to continue to believe that Super Cinnys aren't showing up with abnormal snouts, that's your call. It's not my job to change your mind, I'm just presenting the facts of the measurements I took.
__________________
Slim


i wouldnt call them 'abnormal', they give the supers a real 'noble' look i think. and if it were bent backwards so stopping them breathing, that WOULD be abnormal. this causes no side effects whats so ever, so i think can be considered 'normal' to this morph. and an absolutely gorgeous morph it is, along with the spiders.
sorry i cant work out how to post pics, or i would let you see her.

[RandyRemington]

The stories of deformed snouts go back to the original two supers (Gulf Coast?). I'd really like to hear from someone who has produced a good number of super cinnamon/black pastel and get an idea on percentages. I've no doubt that you can find and buy supers that have normal or at least near normal snouts. It's been so long I can't remember for sure but I think the breeder of the siblings I saw where one looked fine to me and the other had very obvious snout problems thought the one might have a cleft pallet. I don't remember if he actually opened the mouth and confirmed that. With that and the kinking he was actually thinking of euthanizing the snake (a real shame as both supers where very stunning). I'll ask next time I get a chance to see if he happened to keep it and if so if the deformities appeared to have much effect on that super.

It's sounding like this might be like the spider spinning in that it can be argued if all supers have snout abnormalities (although at least in this case actual measurements could answer that question) or not but it also appears that it is at least so minor in some as to not be any problem to the snake. Although I've not personally seen the extreme spinning spiders I can confirm at least one extreme deformed super cinnamon/black pastel so along with the consistent reports of others I don't doubt that it's a real problem, I just don't know if it's like 50% of them or more like 10% or outside of either of those guesses.

[covah]

i have seen one spider who had bad 'wobbles'. i have seen 100's who have none at all. i have never heard of a cleft palate in supers. and surely your friends should have been seen by a rep vet before he euthanised(if he indeed did)to make sure it did. as you said he 'thought'.
it really makes me angry when i read people, who probably dont own these snakes, call them deformed. my spider, and any spider i have seen was not deformed, unless you call regular eating a deformity. my super cinny is certainly not deformed, and as i said before my yellow belly has this head, but my black pastel does not. funnily enough both the yb and the sc are prolific feeders too.
maybe the kinks in the caramel should be brought into this, as i would imagine kinks to impair these more. or the albinos eyesight.
it also makes me very angry when i read of people thinking snakes are disposable, that really annoys me.

[Dragnbaron]

Is that ice? HI-YA!!!

(do ninjas break ice?).

Hmm, i imagined a spider slicing ice while wobbling. I call it, "Snake Drunken Master-fu"

On a side note, i only have one spider, and she does wobble ALOT. Almost to the point where it looks like 'stargazing' but it's kind of cool because at times she'll just sit there and pretend to watch people while staying stretched out and very, very still. I really think she is a secret ninja. It would make sense. Maybe she will become the next spider/batman(woman). Now i'm just confusing things.

[wilomn]

How many of you actually own a super cinny or super cinny cross. Not alot of you and I know that for sure! Both me and Albey have shown that they do not have deformities like crazy. Their may have been a few documented cases but there is not enough to call it a morph trait. Sometime when I open the super cinnys tub his head looks odd its an illusion! Take a normal ball python and photoshop it a solid black color it distorts the head.

A FEW documented cases. Does this statement not confirm a genetic flaw?

If not the FEW, what number, exactly, will have to be CONFIRMED before you allow that it is genetic?

I'd also like to know what makes you think that an optical illusion cannot be disproved by measurements. If you say the nose isn't broader than average and measurements prove it is, doesn't that make you a liar? If you're lying, why should anything you say be taken as truth?

[Wh00h0069]

i have seen one spider who had bad 'wobbles'. i have seen 100's who have none at all. i have never heard of a cleft palate in supers. and surely your friends should have been seen by a rep vet before he euthanised(if he indeed did)to make sure it did. as you said he 'thought'.
it really makes me angry when i read people, who probably dont own these snakes, call them deformed. my spider, and any spider i have seen was not deformed, unless you call regular eating a deformity. my super cinny is certainly not deformed, and as i said before my yellow belly has this head, but my black pastel does not. funnily enough both the yb and the sc are prolific feeders too.
maybe the kinks in the caramel should be brought into this, as i would imagine kinks to impair these more. or the albinos eyesight.
it also makes me very angry when i read of people thinking snakes are disposable, that really annoys me.

I assume Randy was suggesting that his friend euthanized the snake because of the kinking, not the duck bill. I have had to euthanize two snakes because of deformities. I did not see any reason to take them to the vet. I feel that it is up to the breeder if the snake should be euthanized or not. I also feel that it is a responsibility of the breeder to euthanize snakes with severe deformities.