Touchy subject that i need some light shined on....

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Unfortunately for your position, biologists and herpetologists are in general agreement that other than breeding and opportunistic behavior, ball pythons do not benefit from living communally.

They may not "benefit" from it. But how do we know that?

How do we know that it is a disadvantage to them? Especially when they are found this way in the wild?

[rabernet]

They may not "benefit" from it. But how do we know that?

How do we know that it is a disadvantage to them? Especially when they are found this way in the wild?

During breeding season.

Mike, I think you intuitively KNOW that it's less stressful for them and better for them to be housed individually, and you can make up "what if" scenarios all day long, and it becomes an endless cycle.

I can't help but wonder if you aren't challenging what is widely accepted by all the experts with many, many years of combined experience amongst them, to make yourself feel a little better about a housing situation that you have no choice in at this time.

Which begs the question. With so little room available to you right now, how do you intend to house all the babies you hope to produce?

[jkobylka]

I lived in Benin for 10 months... between 2000-2001

The ball pythons I found in the wild outside of the breeding season were always solitary.

The locals kept adult ball pythons in a large room together... 20-30 adults in approx 15'x15'. Weather conditions were ideal, they were offered plenty of food... very few of them thrived in those conditions...

Take it as you will

Justin

[rabernet]

I lived in Benin for 10 months... between 2000-2001

The ball pythons I found in the wild outside of the breeding season were always solitary.

The locals kept adult ball pythons in a large room together... 20-30 adults in approx 15'x15'. Weather conditions were ideal, they were offered plenty off food... very few of them thrived in those conditions...

Take it as you will

Justin

Great information Justin, from real "in the wild" experience!

[NorthernRegius]

I going to say this- only as what I've done in general & for breeding.

Generally-
The most important reason I keep each snake in separate housing is to play to the weakest link & for records keeping. Most of my snakes are outgoing, many do not even need or use hides- some are such aggressive feeders they will come out of their enclosures for food & not because they aren't well fed. They feel safe, they've not even felt fear here & for most that IMHO makes a difference.

However some that I've bought seem anchored to their hides & won't even leave them to feed. They are timid & fearful I work with them at their pace, & they do improve. But in summation it's like Alphas & non's. Isolation is what the shy ones' crave.

In breeding,
I have cycled females together without males. I put girls without follicles together with ones who have them & it seems to kick the slower ones into developing follicles.

I have also left male & female pairs together for a whole season (my WORST brreding year BTW), separating only to feed.

From what I have seen, girls need space or they stress. They need breaks during breeding & I get more copulations by cycling as well.

Once gravid, females, especially new moms seem to want hides- even those who normally don't use them otherwise. So I provide hides.

The more secure I can make them feel, the better. That is what dictates what I do.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. The proof will be ultimately in how well they produce & it sounds like you will know if what you are trying is stressful or not.

[Adam_Wysocki]

They may not "benefit" from it. But how do we know that?

How do we know that it is a disadvantage to them? Especially when they are found this way in the wild?

Because there are experts in the field of herpetology and animal behavior that have spent decades learning all the ins and outs of these animals and documenting their findings for our benefit.

Field work and first hand accounts like Justins and others that have been to West Africa, captive observations, and experimentation all play a part in how we know.

As tempting as it may be to watch a couple of internet videos and justify keeping two ball pythons in an enclosure together ... that's not science, and it's not helping your animals any.

There have been volumes written by experts about basic and advanced aspects of animal behavior ... you should check some of them out.

-adam

[West Coast Jungle]

I have heard the in the wild and in captivity discussion before but the huge difference is the animals choice and control of where it wants to be which it can never do in captivity.

In the wild the large majority of ball pythons that actually hatch will die and never make it to adulthood and probably struggle and suffer during this natural process. This is not what we want to accomplish in a captive breeding situation so comparing the two may not always be whats best.

[kazboots]

We can think one way or another but until a scientific study is done, keeping accurate records on related animals housed both ways, the clutches split half raised together and half raised separately, and feeding and weights monitored for both ways. There isn't any proof if there is an effect. It is also possible that young animals would be okay while mature adults need their own space or vice versa.There are reptiles where the young do fine in groups and the adults do not.

[Adam_Wysocki]

but until a scientific study is done

Animal behavior has been studied for a very long time ... it's not a new science. If you took the time to do some research in the academic world, you'd find volumes of information on the subject.

In the case of reptiles, they're born entirely self sufficient so that they can be ... well ... self sufficient.

I don't think it can be any simpler to explain.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

-adam

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Because there are experts in the field of herpetology and animal behavior that have spent decades learning all the ins and outs of these animals and documenting their findings for our benefit.

Field work and first hand accounts like Justins and others that have been to West Africa, captive observations, and experimentation all play a part in how we know.

As tempting as it may be to watch a couple of internet videos and justify keeping two ball pythons in an enclosure together ... that's not science, and it's not helping your animals any.

There have been volumes written by experts about basic and advanced aspects of animal behavior ... you should check some of them out.

-adam

I don't know adam.... I have already read some of the volumes you speak of. For example, probably the holy bible of ball python keeping, Ball Pythons: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding by Dave and Tracey Barker.... Did you know that even the Barkers have been quoted as saying that Ball Pythons can be successfully kept together? Sure they pointed out that it was not recommended for the beginner keeper, and that the snakes needed to be of similar size. They also said that males should not be kept together, and females not yet of breeding size should not be kept together with males... But they said it can be done successfully without issue as many keepers have proven over the years.

What about me? I am in no way shape or form a Barker, or any other big name in the business... but what about my collection? I have females that have been house together for a LONG time! Some of those females SIBLINGS I keep by themselves. They are all growing and thriving just the same. Should I just dismiss my own observations and go only with what some of the pros say?