Touchy subject that i need some light shined on....

[Mike Cavanaugh]

I can't help but wonder if you aren't challenging what is widely accepted by all the experts with many, many years of combined experience amongst them, to make yourself feel a little better about a housing situation that you have no choice in at this time.

1st to answer your question, I have enough hatchling racks to get me thru at least the next 3 years of breeding.

2nd, I am surprised at your accusation that I am only making an argument to make myself fell better. I also think it is very inaccurate that you claim I am going against what is "accepted by all the experts"

I would appreciate it if you would not judge me in your position of power on these forums, but instead contribute to the conversation at hand.

[Adam_Wysocki]

I don't know adam.... I have already read some of the volumes you speak of. For example, probably the holy bible of ball python keeping, Ball Pythons: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding by Dave and Tracey Barker.... Did you know that even the Barkers have been quoted as saying that Ball Pythons can be successfully kept together? Sure they pointed out that it was not recommended for the beginner keeper, and that the snakes needed to be of similar size. They also said that males should not be kept together, and females not yet of breeding size should not be kept together with males... But they said it can be done successfully without issue as many keepers have proven over the years.

What about me? I am in no way shape or form a Barker, but what about my collection? I have females that have been house together for a LONG time! Some of those females SIBLINGS I keep by themselves. They are all growing and thriving just the same. Should I just dismiss my own observations and go only with what some of the pros say?

Mike,

I'm not at all talking about ball python husbandry texts ... I'm talking about academic texts specifically on the subject of animal behavior ... there are hundreds and they're not too difficult to find if you're interested.

As far as your collection ... unfortunately the amount of animals you are working with, the length of time you've kept them, your methods of observation, and your lack of a control group make any findings you have just opinion and not science. And ya know what they say about opinions.

Blessings,

-adam

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Mike,

I'm not at all talking about ball python husbandry texts ... I'm talking about academic texts specifically on the subject of animal behavior ... there are hundreds and they're not too difficult to find if you're interested.

As far as your collection ... unfortunately the amount of animals you are working with, the length of time you've kept them, your methods of observation, and your lack of a control group make any findings you have just opinion and not science. And ya know what they say about opinions.

Blessings,

-adam

Ah, so I should not take into account the observations from my own collection that I work with daily because it is so small.... and I have not had them long enough to make basic observations.... And the opinion of the Barkers is not qualified enough to support my argument in your eyes...

And coming up with theories based on observation is not science...

Righto.

[rabernet]

1st to answer your question, I have enough hatchling racks to get me thru at least the next 3 years of breeding.

2nd, I am surprised at your accusation that I am only making an argument to make myself fell better. I also think it is very inaccurate that you claim I am going against what is "accepted by all the experts"

I would appreciate it if you would not judge me in your position of power on these forums, but instead contribute to the conversation at hand.

What does my position here have to do with my opinion and participation in this thread? Have I threatened you in any way, or was that just your feeble attempt to discredit my participation in this thread?

I made no accusations, I said "I can't help but wonder".

Carry on, and good luck with your collection.

[monk90222]

Why do you refuse to accept that maybe what you are doing is not up to industry standard?

[Adam_Wysocki]

Ah, so I should not take into account the observations from my own collection that I work with daily because it is so small.... and I have not had them long enough to make basic observations.... And the opinion of the Barkers is not qualified enough to support my argument in your eyes...

And coming up with theories based on observation is not science...

Righto.

If you comprehend the principles behind the scientific method at all ... then you are correct.

-adam

[kazboots]

Animal behavior has been studied for a very long time ... it's not a new science. If you took the time to do some research in the academic world, you'd find volumes of information on the subject.

In the case of reptiles, they're born entirely self sufficient so that they can be ... well ... self sufficient.

I don't think it can be any simpler to explain.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

-adam

Animal behavior is a broad term, there are Animal Behaviorist out there that couldn't identify a ball python much less care for one, most animal behaviorist work with the cute and furry, and quite frankly every animal is different, I have volunteered in a reptile lab on a college campus for 7 years now, I have my bachelors in Biology,speciallizing in zoological sciences over the human biology. I have lived in the academic world and have helped care for animals in other's research projects. As far as I know no one has studied the effects of ball pythons living communally in a research study. I will see if someone who still has access to the database can check but reptile research is not as common as cute and furry research. I don't have access now that I only volunteer and am not enrolled in classes.
There is a lot about reptiles that is unknown, or is simply 'well it worked for this person' .The balls in the lab are kept separately presumably because that is what is recommended,also it is easier to track every feeding and keep animals strait in a large collection if everyone has their own cage and card. I am just saying that until I see an actual study to prove one way or the other, and I have heard of babies doing fine communally, I am not sure I can condemn someone who seems to be having good luck doing it a different way. The issue is not whether they NEED to be housed together but if it will harm them to be housed together, and at what age would it become detrimental if at all. Since I have watched plenty of balls grow up separately that obviously works. It may also be an individual thing, some may thrive in groups and others may not do as well. I certainly wouldn't recommend a novice trying it since they would not have the experience to notice a snake is having problems if there were problems as soon as an experienced keeper might.

[Adam_Wysocki]

I am just saying that until I see an actual study to prove one way or the other, and I have heard of babies doing fine communally, I am not sure I can condemn someone who seems to be having good luck doing it a different way.

If someone told you that they were having luck force feeding their ball python cooked shrimp would you need to see a study to know that it was wrong?

I don't think that it's about condemning anyone ... from what I can tell it's about decades of accrued communal experience in ball python husbandry versus a couple of youtube videos. Seems like a no brainer to me ... but then again, I'm just a simpleton with a couple of snakes so I'm probably way off base on this one.

-adam

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Why do you refuse to accept that maybe what you are doing is not up to industry standard?

Why do you refuse to accept that popular opinion is not fact?

[Mike Cavanaugh]

If someone told you that they were having luck force feeding their ball python cooked shrimp would you need to see a study to know that it was wrong?


-adam

While I understand the point you are making, It is important to note that the subject we are talking has been observed in nature.


If there were Utube videos of the guys in Ghana catching BP's and it is discovered that there was shrimp or fish in their belly, it would certainly be worthy of a study would it not?