Do all morphs have diffrent personalities?

I know spiders have head wobble besides that do certain morphs act diffrently from normal ballpythons?

it's not a personality, it's a gene error.. so to speak. Nature's way of saying that this animal isn't healthy or quite "right". Did they ever quite find out what exactly makes the spider wobble? Is it a balance-disturbance in the brain?

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Originally Posted by CamStatic

it's not a personality, it's a gene error.. so to speak. Nature's way of saying that this animal isn't healthy or quite "right". Did they ever quite find out what exactly makes the spider wobble? Is it a balance-disturbance in the brain?

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Spiders were healthy enough to survive in the wild in order to be imported here for the pet trade. They may not be quite "right" but they are still healthy animals. There are some extreme cases of wobbles that hinder the health of an animal but I think they are becoming the rarities now a days.

Adding the spider gene to a combo morph seems to strengthen it and reduces the frequency of wobbles appearing in combos vs. the spider gene on its own.

I personally feel that it is a neurological weakness that effects orientation. It becomes much more noticeable during times of high excitement, like feeding time.

What exactly is wobling and are all spiders affected ?

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Originally Posted by Darkwing_Angel

What exactly is wobling and are all spiders affected ?

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oh boy, not that can of worms again :P

i remember that topic being hotly debated before with some saying that ALL spiders wobble to some degree and others saying that isn't true.

I still haven't really made up my mind when it comes to spiders, as I own one myself, and her wobbling is very limited and hardly even there. Can go months before I see any wobbling at all.. so it seems that the degree of it varies a lot from spider to spider.

However, the question to breeding morphs that shows defects connected with that gene should be debated. Is it right to keep on breeding animals with defects, just because they are beautiful? And I'm not thinking mainly about spiders, but also other animals who suffers from humans aggressive ways of breeding beyond all common sense when it comes to their pets appearances. The English Bulldog and similar breeds are just a few of the examples where selective breeding has gone way too far and animals are suffering badly.

But, I'm gonna stay to the reptile-part for now.
This year, I've been testing out the morph enigma with Leopard geckos. I got 3 enigmas from Denmark, 1 female who seems perfectly fine, 1 male that seems a little delusional, and the last male who's really out trippin' and being crazy.
Enigmas have something called "circling", which makes them walk around in circles, some more than others. Everybody in the leopardgecko business told me not to worry about it. (I had never heard of it until I actually saw it in my own geckos and asked wth they were doing)
so, I bred the males to my females, and the babies started to hatch for about 1 month ago, and I still have 5 eggs left in the incubator from one of my enigmas.
About 2 months ago I tried to breed my albino female to one of the enigmas, as she was ready for some love. This was when I started to really worry and think twice if breeding this trait is a good idea after all... The male was circling, biting into the substrate (paper towels), trying to mount her the wrong way, and completely making an ass outta himself while he was struggling insanely. After 15 minutes I separated them and gave up. The male was still biting into the paper towels and trying to hump them..
His circling gets worse when he's excited, just like the spider morph..

Now, I know it may seem funny, but to me, it was devastating. This is not a healthy animal. He didn't know what was what, was completely deranged, not acting like a normal, healthy leopardgecko at all, even during a sexy-time try.

So the babies started to hatch out last month, all of them are very pretty and I have about 5 enigmas.. All except 1 have the circling part. And 2 of them seems to have a trouble with balancing overall, they hardly eat, and they are completely terrified of me even though I'm handling them very gentle. The normal gecko babies both this year and last calmed down pretty fast, but these enigmas are a :cens0r: to tame, and I'm really worried that they are eating so poorly.


So, my bottom line is that from now on, I won't support gene defects from a morph, no matter how pretty it is. I think as animal owners and as animal breeders, we should firstly think of the health of these animals. Seeing the enigma alone is a proof that many within the reptile business surely doesn't focus on the overall health at all, and that really worries me. We have let that go so far with the dog and cat breeds, and it will kill me to see that the reptile hobby seems to be going the same way. The selfishness that some people have, the obsession that completely overruns all common sense, is just disgusting.

I love morphs, as long as they are healthy! I haven't seen a very badly spider-wobbling just yet, as my spider shows almost little or none symptoms.. and compared to the enigmas, that wobbling is 100% possible to live with and still have a normal life. Circling, on the other hand, is animal cruelty without a doubt, and from my point of view shouldn't be bred on at all.

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Originally Posted by CamStatic

...
This year, I've been testing out the morph enigma with Leopard geckos. I got 3 enigmas from Denmark, 1 female who seems perfectly fine, 1 male that seems a little delusional, and the last male who's really out trippin' and being crazy.
Enigmas have something called "circling", which makes them walk around in circles, some more than others. Everybody in the leopardgecko business told me not to worry about it. (I had never heard of it until I actually saw it in my own geckos and asked wth they were doing)
...
I love morphs, as long as they are healthy! I haven't seen a very badly spider-wobbling just yet, as my spider shows almost little or none symptoms.. and compared to the enigmas, that wobbling is 100% possible to live with and still have a normal life. Circling, on the other hand, is animal cruelty without a doubt, and from my point of view shouldn't be bred on at all.

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So had you already purchased the Enigmas before you first became aware of the circling?

Remember that all these morphs are something of defects and it's always going to be a judgment call on what are good defects, which can be lived with, and which are detrimental. To me the problem is when issues are hidden from the public so that potential buyers don't have the opportunity to make up their minds before purchasing.

I just wanted to add that my Enigma does not 'circle', and eats like a beast.

My spider does show a bit of abnormalities when it comes movement, but there is no spinning and it can only be noticed by my trained eye (just because I own her and have handled her so often, I can see the slight difference in her movement than my other ball pythons).

They all have something neurological that is genetic. Some show it a lot, some show it a little, and some may not show it at all. The fact is, that it comes with the gene and in almost all cases does not affect the life of the animal what-so-ever.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

So had you already purchased the Enigmas before you first became aware of the circling?

Remember that all these morphs are something of defects and it's always going to be a judgment call on what are good defects, which can be lived with, and which are detrimental. To me the problem is when issues are hidden from the public so that potential buyers don't have the opportunity to make up their minds before purchasing.

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Yeah, nobody told me about it before I purchased them, and when I later asked what was wrong with them, I got "oh, some enigmas do circle around, nothing to worry about".. o_O
And yeah, I think you're right. I wish people would tell more openly about the defects that come along with the animals. Especially if you're selling them..

thanks guys i was just wonderiing beause i know that these "orphs" are all genetic defects like the super cinny with kinks and the spiders head wobble so i was wondering if any others have other defects which is what i meant by personalities

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Originally Posted by th3jok3r

thanks guys i was just wonderiing beause i know that these "orphs" are all genetic defects like the super cinny with kinks and the spiders head wobble so i was wondering if any others have other defects which is what i meant by personalities

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Caramels are known for kinks not Cinnies.

oo yea thats right and supper cinniy's have something wrong with their heads or something i dont remeber

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Spiders were healthy enough to survive in the wild in order to be imported here for the pet trade.

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Were they? I believe only one wild spider has ever been found, and all of our captive spiders are descended from that one animal. I have no idea if he was an adult, or maybe even a CH, which would mean he never was in the wild at all. I suspect the wobbling issues may be related to why another wild spider has never been found. If he was CH, or if he was young when captured, maybe he is the original mutant, and just never got a chance to breed. Or maybe he is the original mutant, was able to survive ok, but his wobbling preventing him from breeding in the wild. Who knows? But even if spiders may not be able to survive and reproduce in the wild, that doesn't mean that most of them aren't plenty healthy enough to be just fine in captivity. Albinos don't do too well in the wild either, but just because they are an easy target for a predator doesn't have any negative affect on them in captivity at all.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Adding the spider gene to a combo morph seems to strengthen it and reduces the frequency of wobbles appearing in combos vs. the spider gene on its own.

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I've heard this before, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it makes no sense to me. It is not like a spider has fewer genes than a spider combo. Why would pastel, for example, reduce the wobbles any more than the normal gene on the pastel locus? I wonder if this is just a rumor, or if it is true, does anyone have any explanation for it?

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Originally Posted by CamStatic

Is it right to keep on breeding animals with defects, just because they are beautiful? And I'm not thinking mainly about spiders, but also other animals who suffers from humans aggressive ways of breeding beyond all common sense when it comes to their pets appearances. The English Bulldog and similar breeds are just a few of the examples where selective breeding has gone way too far and animals are suffering badly.

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I think there is a BIG difference between selecting for something like a deformed nose that interferes with the dog's ability to breathe, and selecting for a color pattern.

Also, you reported that one of your enigma leo babies does not circle. If selective breeding can keep the pretty color pattern, but reduce or eliminate the circling problem, do you still have a problem with breeding enigmas? (I don't actually know anything about enigmas, so I don't know how likely this is, but just asking if...)

I've not been aware of BP morphs for long enough to be sure, but it seems to be that there are fewer problems with caramels kinking than there used to be. Maybe all the outcrossing that has been done as people produce hets and combos has helped. Also, some people are trying to find ways to avoid it, for example I remember reading about someone (Tim Bailey maybe?) who was keeping track of some stuff regarding humidity during incubation because there may be a correlation.

So I think there is lots of possibilities to reduce or eliminate some of the problems that are seen with some of the reptile morphs. Reptile breeding is still in its infancy compared to something like dog breeding. I actually think the reptile world is doing WONDERFULLY by selecting for colors. Compare it to such things as the already mentioned dog breeds, or long fins on fish which make it hard for them to swim, or quarter horses with tiny feet which often caused lameness issues, and you'll probably agree we could be doing a lot worse.

this has nothing to do with spider wobbles but i do know that the camel albino morph has common kinking.or maybe it was just carmels? either way carmel morphs are known for kinking

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I've heard this before, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it makes no sense to me. It is not like a spider has fewer genes than a spider combo. Why would pastel, for example, reduce the wobbles any more than the normal gene on the pastel locus? I wonder if this is just a rumor, or if it is true, does anyone have any explanation for it?

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This is a statement I've heard many times over the last couple years; is it rumor? I guess it could be.

We see many posts about people and their spiders exhibiting some sort of wobble? Where are all the bumble bee, honeybee, lesserbee etcs. that show wobbles? I can think of one post a member here had of a bumble bee with wobbles and thats all. The combos have become more common I would have expected some more threads on the topic if spider combos were showing wobble signs.

Maybe we should start a poll thread with the different spider combos and ask users to vote if they exhibit wobbles.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Caramels are known for kinks not Cinnies.

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Actually homozygous cinnamon have both tendencies to duck bill and kink going on. It's probably just easier to hide a kink in a picture.

I remember when the spinning thing first went public for spiders (years and years into the project) it was thought that the combos spun more because some of the first combos at shows where wobblers. My theory is that there where enough regular spiders to pick from that only non spinners where taken to the show but the first combos where so neat that they where taken even if spinning.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I've heard this before, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it makes no sense to me. It is not like a spider has fewer genes than a spider combo. Why would pastel, for example, reduce the wobbles any more than the normal gene on the pastel locus? I wonder if this is just a rumor, or if it is true, does anyone have any explanation for it?

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I am inclined to agree with you KC. "Wobble" comes from the spider gene, adding some other morph to the mix does not remove the spider gene. I think the reason we have this rumor is the same as the reason there is an identical rumor on Jag carpets when coupled with other morphs. The combo animals are higher cash animals and the last thing a breeder selling a lesserbee or a spinnerblast wants to contend with is losing a sale because of "wobble"...

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

We see many posts about people and their spiders exhibiting some sort of wobble? Where are all the bumble bee, honeybee, lesserbee etcs. that show wobbles? I can think of one post a member here had of a bumble bee with wobbles and thats all.

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There is a YouTube vid of a spinner that is going total spaz. And at shows I have seen multiple bees twirling. They are out there, you just have to look.

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The combos have become more common I would have expected some more threads on the topic if spider combos were showing wobble signs.

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As I said above, I think the combos do wobble but people just do not talk about it. Hell, there is still a fracas every time someone brings up their normal spider having "wobble", how big a tempest in a teacup do you think it would make if people were to start bringing up their train-wreck queenbees?? There is a stigma about the "wobble" in spiders. All spiders "wobble". Period. It may be minor, it may be major but it is always there. Kevin has said it. Ralph has said it. Why we can not just accept that and move on I do not understand. They live fine, they eat fine, they shed fine, they defecate fine. So why is it that everyone with a spider can not just accept that, yeah, they are a little tweak?? If you do not like the idea of an animal that "wobbles" then just do not get a spider. If you like the way the spider looks and you do not mind the "wobble" then go get a spider...

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Maybe we should start a poll thread with the different spider combos and ask users to vote if they exhibit wobbles.

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Maybe I am remembering wrong but I am pretty sure there is one on here somewhere...

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Originally Posted by kc261

Were they? I believe only one wild spider has ever been found, and all of our captive spiders are descended from that one animal. I have no idea if he was an adult, or maybe even a CH, which would mean he never was in the wild at all. I suspect the wobbling issues may be related to why another wild spider has never been found. If he was CH, or if he was young when captured, maybe he is the original mutant, and just never got a chance to breed. Or maybe he is the original mutant, was able to survive ok, but his wobbling preventing him from breeding in the wild. Who knows? But even if spiders may not be able to survive and reproduce in the wild, that doesn't mean that most of them aren't plenty healthy enough to be just fine in captivity. Albinos don't do too well in the wild either, but just because they are an easy target for a predator doesn't have any negative affect on them in captivity at all.

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The first spider was a WC Juvi if memory serves. Does this mean that he is the only spider ever produced in the wild..My thoughts would be no..Since its a "dominate" gene either its mom or dad had to look like a spider :O .

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I've heard this before, and I'm not saying you are wrong, but it makes no sense to me. It is not like a spider has fewer genes than a spider combo. Why would pastel, for example, reduce the wobbles any more than the normal gene on the pastel locus? I wonder if this is just a rumor, or if it is true, does anyone have any explanation for it?

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Because we don't know the exact reason that a spider wobbles it is possible that it is missing something on the genetic level that can be replaced by adding another gene in with it. We just don't know.

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I've not been aware of BP morphs for long enough to be sure, but it seems to be that there are fewer problems with caramels kinking than there used to be. Maybe all the outcrossing that has been done as people produce hets and combos has helped. Also, some people are trying to find ways to avoid it, for example I remember reading about someone (Tim Bailey maybe?) who was keeping track of some stuff regarding humidity during incubation because there may be a correlation.

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Or maybe because there is such a huge stink about the kinking that breeders are just not admitting they produce them or aren't showing them to people. There is a theory that the internal pressure of the egg can increase the risk of kinking in the Caramels. Tims idea is to lower the humidity and by doing so reducing the internal pressure of the egg. Its still just a theory..It also may be genetic like scoliosis in people

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So I think there is lots of possibilities to reduce or eliminate some of the problems that are seen with some of the reptile morphs. Reptile breeding is still in its infancy compared to something like dog breeding. I actually think the reptile world is doing WONDERFULLY by selecting for colors. Compare it to such things as the already mentioned dog breeds, or long fins on fish which make it hard for them to swim, or quarter horses with tiny feet which often caused lameness issues, and you'll probably agree we could be doing a lot worse.

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I agree I my mind we are doing better at trying to produce better quality animals. In time we may see some of the problems and oddity's we are now facing be bred out.

I haven't really done much searching on youtube, but I will. I've no doubt that spiders have wobbles or that combo morphs exhibit it as well. But I honestly thought the frequency in its occurance in combos was reduced.

I think its a shame that there is so much uncertainty and misinformation regarding such a commonly used combo trait. I'm sure I'm not the only one that thought combos were at a lower risk.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The first spider was a WC Juvi if memory serves. Does this mean that he is the only spider ever produced in the wild..My thoughts would be no..Since its a "dominate" gene either its mom or dad had to look like a spider :O .

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Not necessarily ... It's entirely possible that the first spider imported was one that arose through spontaneous mutation.

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Because we don't know the exact reason that a spider wobbles it is possible that it is missing something on the genetic level that can be replaced by adding another gene in with it. We just don't know.

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I tend to doubt that ... I guess it is theoretically possible, as we know so little about why, on a molecular level, most mutations manifest the way they do phenotypically, but I have a hard time envisioning that. For example, we could pretend that a spider looks like a spider because its neural crest cells migrate improperly (some NC cells being melanocyte precursors), and that this also somehow affects the migration of certain cells to some part of its nervous system, causing neuro signs. Now pretend that pastel occurs because the pastel has a mutation that decreases the amount of melanin produced. ... I just don't see how that pastel mutation (less melanin) is going to help make up for the improper NC cell/melanocyte migration mutation. (All of this is just speculation of course -- I have no idea what's going on on a molecular level to cause the spider phenotype -- but my point is that I have a hard time seeing a molecular reason that other mutations could "fix" the spider wobble.)

Does anyone know if the spider is truly just "dominant" -- meaning that homozygous spiders exist, and just look identical to the heterozygous form -- or if spider is homozygous lethal?

What I wonder is whether the wobble is caused by the spider mutation itself (some epistatic effect), or whether the "wobble gene" is just very close to the "spider gene" on the chromosome, so they're currently linked. If it's the former, I'm not totally sure how it would be possible to "breed out" the wobble -- seems like then it would just be a part of the spiders that we have to accept (or fail to accept, and therefore choose not to work with the mutation). If it's linkage, though, with enough outcrossing we could potentially get rid of that wobble gene ...

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I tend to doubt that ... I guess it is theoretically possible, as we know so little about why, on a molecular level, most mutations manifest the way they do phenotypically, but I have a hard time envisioning that. For example, we could pretend that a spider looks like a spider because its neural crest cells migrate improperly (some NC cells being melanocyte precursors), and that this also somehow affects the migration of certain cells to some part of its nervous system, causing neuro signs. Now pretend that pastel occurs because the pastel has a mutation that decreases the amount of melanin produced. ... I just don't see how that pastel mutation (less melanin) is going to help make up for the improper NC cell/melanocyte migration mutation. (All of this is just speculation of course -- I have no idea what's going on on a molecular level to cause the spider phenotype -- but my point is that I have a hard time seeing a molecular reason that other mutations could "fix" the spider wobble.)

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Because lets say the expressed spider gene causes a gap in the allele that is responsible for proper motor function. It is possible that since another mutation has the complete allele that it could fill the missing gap and in turn restore proper motor function. It's 100 percent possible that the gene that causes the spider mutation also causes other physiological like vertigo that can be corrected by additional gene's..It's done in other life forms all the time; I.E. Cows, vegetables, horses, people gene replacement or supplement therapy is a possible solution's to debilitating genetic disorders.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Not necessarily ... It's entirely possible that the first spider imported was one that arose through spontaneous mutation.

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Beat me to it LOL

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Does anyone know if the spider is truly just "dominant" -- meaning that homozygous spiders exist, and just look identical to the heterozygous form -- or if spider is homozygous lethal?

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No, no one seems to know. There is a "rumor" of a homozygous spider but I keep hearing it and never seeing any one willing to ante up more than "I know someone who knows someone who knows someone..."

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What I wonder is whether the wobble is caused by the spider mutation itself (some epistatic effect), or whether the "wobble gene" is just very close to the "spider gene" on the chromosome, so they're currently linked. If it's the former, I'm not totally sure how it would be possible to "breed out" the wobble -- seems like then it would just be a part of the spiders that we have to accept (or fail to accept, and therefore choose not to work with the mutation). If it's linkage, though, with enough outcrossing we could potentially get rid of that wobble gene ...

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Considering the spider is probably the most outcrossed morph out there if it was possible to break "wooble" from the pattern phenotype then we ought to have seen it by now. I am betting it is one and the same gene and we will not see them separated.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Because lets say the expressed spider gene causes a gap in the allele that is responsible for proper motor function. It is possible that since another mutation has the complete allele that it could fill the missing gap and in turn restore proper motor function.

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Ummm, no. The spider gene has a dominant effect over the WT gene so you can not "replace" it by breeding to another morph any more than you can replace it by breeding to a WT. Unless you somehow get a gene duplication event in your breeding you will have a mutant copy and a WT copy of the gene and the mutant copy is the dominant acting source of the "wobble". And duplication events rarely, if ever, copy single genes but instead copy whole blocks of genes which is more likely to cause genetic carnage...

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It's 100 percent possible that the gene that causes the spider mutation also causes other physiological like vertigo that can be corrected by additional gene's..

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Again, no. If breeding to "morphs" in general is the cure then you ought to see it happen breeding to a WT. I refuse to believe that every morph out there has this magical curative effect and that WT ball do not have it. It is just bogus.

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It's done in other life forms all the time; I.E. Cows, vegetables, horses, people gene replacement or supplement therapy is a possible solution's to debilitating genetic disorders.

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No. Supplement therapy does not "cure" the mutant gene, it is still there and still exerts its effect in the absence of the supplement. And in gene replacement therapy you are adding in an exogenous functional copy of a defective gene. And it does not actually replace the defective gene, it inserts, via viral means, randomly into the chromosome and functions from those sites. Additionally, in those cases where it is implemented it is with recessive genes where a single WT copy of the gene can exert an effect. It has not been done to correct dominant type defects, which is what the spider mutation is.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Considering the spider is probably the most outcrossed morph out there if it was possible to break "wooble" from the pattern phenotype then we ought to have seen it by now. I am betting it is one and the same gene and we will not see them separated.

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And yet I've been told first hand by the people that have bred more spider combos than any one that they have seen normal spider sibs that wobble. :O

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Ummm, no. The spider gene has a dominant effect over the WT gene so you can not "replace" it by breeding to another morph any more than you can replace it by breeding to a WT. Unless you somehow get a gene duplication event in your breeding you will have a mutant copy and a WT copy of the gene and the mutant copy is the dominant acting source of the "wobble". And duplication events rarely, if ever, copy single genes but instead copy whole blocks of genes which is more likely to cause genetic carnage...

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I never said replace it I was implying strengthening the gene by adding in something genetically that its lacking that causes the wobble.
Then if this is 100% true and the spider gene is the only reason for wobbling then it puts to rest the idea that there are spiders that don't wobble.

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Again, no. If breeding to "morphs" in general is the cure then you ought to see it happen breeding to a WT. I refuse to believe that every morph out there has this magical curative effect and that WT ball do not have it. It is just bogus.

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Again I never said every morph has some curative effect I never said that any morph had a curative effect. But you can't deny that there are things in the gene's of these animals that we don't understand. So to say that it isn't out there also isn't true.

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No. Supplement therapy does not "cure" the mutant gene, it is still there and still exerts its effect in the absence of the supplement. And in gene replacement therapy you are adding in an exogenous functional copy of a defective gene. And it does not actually replace the defective gene, it inserts, via viral means, randomly into the chromosome and functions from those sites. Additionally, in those cases where it is implemented it is with recessive genes where a single WT copy of the gene can exert an effect. It has not been done to correct dominant type defects, which is what the spider mutation is.

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So your saying that by adding addition working copy's of genetic code in to the DNA of the animal the defective gene can be corrected, not eliminated but corrected in that individual?

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The first spider was a WC Juvi if memory serves. Does this mean that he is the only spider ever produced in the wild..My thoughts would be no..Since its a "dominate" gene either its mom or dad had to look like a spider :O .

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Actually, no. Once upon a time, there WAS a spider that did not have either a spider mom or dad. It was the first spider, where the spontaneous mutation occurred. This has to be true. Whether or not the one that was caught and imported is that original spider, we can only speculate.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

There is a theory that the internal pressure of the egg can increase the risk of kinking in the Caramels. Tims idea is to lower the humidity and by doing so reducing the internal pressure of the egg. Its still just a theory.

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I understand it is only a theory. That is why I said "people are trying to find ways to avoid it" instead of that a way to avoid it has already been found. I wasn't trying to say anything specific about caramels so much as illustrate the point that even when some morphs have problems, there may be ways to eliminate those problems.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Because lets say the expressed spider gene causes a gap in the allele that is responsible for proper motor function. It is possible that since another mutation has the complete allele that it could fill the missing gap and in turn restore proper motor function. It's 100 percent possible that the gene that causes the spider mutation also causes other physiological like vertigo that can be corrected by additional gene's..It's done in other life forms all the time; I.E. Cows, vegetables, horses, people gene replacement or supplement therapy is a possible solution's to debilitating genetic disorders.

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:confused: I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. What is "a gap in the allele"?

Also, I am a LONG way from an expert on this, but from my limited understanding, gene replacement therapy would replace a mutated gene with a normal copy of that same gene. I don't think replacing it with a different gene on a different locus is likely to do any good at all.

I can see how possibly some genes are redundant or close to redundant. For example, the spider morph and the pinstripe morph have a lot of similarities, even though they are on different loci. So maybe whatever those genes do, it is similar and possibly somewhat redundant. However, in that case, I would expect a spinner to be MORE likely to have problems with wobbles, rather than less. A normal, spider, pin, and spinner all have a total of 4 genes on those 2 loci. So a spinner doesn't have "more" genes; the only thing it has more of is mutated genes. Why would the pinstripe gene do a better job of filling in that gap in the allele (which I still don't really know what you mean by that, so forgive me if this makes no sense) than the normal gene on the pinstripe allele does? If anything, I would think that since the spider and pinstripe morphs have similarities, that a spinner would wobble MORE than a regular spider, because it has less normal genes, and more mutations.

And as far as an apparently totally unrelated gene, such as pastel, helping, I just don't see why or how it could. You said scoliosis is genetic in people, so I'm going to use that example even though I don't personally know if it is or not. Assume there is some sort of genetic therapy to treat scoliosis in people where they give a person a pill with some extra genes (again, I don't know if there is or not, and I don't think gene therapy is really just a pill, but simplifying in order to make a point). Do you think that what they do is put genes for blue eyes in that pill? Or give them normal copies of the gene of which they have a mutated version that causes the scoliosis?

OK, I've had to answer 3 phone calls while writing this reply, so I've really lost my original train of thought and may have missed some of what I wanted to say. I hope it still makes sense. In any event, I'm not trying to argue here. I'm quite sure some of you know more than I do. I'm just trying to understand, and some things aren't making sense to me.

EDIT: I really should learn to check for new replies when I get interrupted and take an exceptionally long time to finish a post. Sorry if this repeats and/or ignores a couple of the most recent posts.

What I'm meaning by the "gap" and since we don't know its merely a theory. If you imagine DNA like a ladder with two sides one side having the info for the spider and the other the WT. If the spider gene is missing half of a rung that is responsible for motor function. Now lets just say the normal gene has its half of the info needed to make proper motor function happen but since the spider side doesn't it wobbles. Now lets say you add pastel in the mix again just for an example. You still have the WT side that makes motor function happen but now you also have the pastel gene in the mix that might match complete the gene needed for motor function.

It's just a theory no one really knows how or why they do the wobble thing but its fun to think about the ways it might happen.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

And yet I've been told first hand by the people that have bred more spider combos than any one that they have seen normal spider sibs that wobble. :O

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"Wobble" can happen in any morph and it is not necessarily associated with spider breedings. I saw a lesser spinning it's little head off at a show and actually asked the guy if it was from a spider clutch and he said no but I was the third person to ask him that.

I have never heard the information you posted, based on your "more spider combos than any one" I can take a wild stab at who you are referring to and if I am correct then I guess I should not be surprised I have not heard this info before... So, now there may be cases with this one breeder, where spider and "wobble" have been un-linked. Are there others? (Not saying there are not, I just have this thing about a sample size of 1...)

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I never said replace it I was implying strengthening the gene by adding in something genetically that its lacking that causes the wobble.

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I apologize if I am sounding dense here but how can you "strengthen the gene" without adding the gene itself back in?

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Then if this is 100% true and the spider gene is the only reason for wobbling then it puts to rest the idea that there are spiders that don't wobble

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Like the Jag carpets this is asking to prove a negative which cannot be done. Spiders that are not "wobbling" today may well "wobble" tomorrow, or next week, or next year... Or never if the proper stress event does not trigger them.

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Again I never said every morph has some curative effect I never said that any morph had a curative effect.

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I apologize if I misread but you seemed to be supporting the statement made early in the thread:

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Adding the spider gene to a combo morph seems to strengthen it and reduces the frequency of wobbles appearing in combos vs. the spider gene on its own.

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That is making a blanket statement that morphs in general are a cure all for "wobble". I disagree with that statement. I do not think morphs make any difference, spiders will "wobble" if they are normal or albino or bee or what ever...

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But you can't deny that there are things in the gene's of these animals that we don't understand. So to say that it isn't out there also isn't true.

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No I cannot deny that there are things in the genes of these animals that we do not understand. But I would follow that up with the caveat that snakes are not some genetic black box and what happens in one type of animal quite likely happens in another cause that has been show to be the case. So what we know about mutant phenotypes in other animals can give us a pretty good idea what is going on in our snakes.

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So your saying that by adding addition working copy's of genetic code in to the DNA of the animal the defective gene can be corrected, not eliminated but corrected in that individual?

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No. I am saying that if you take something like cystic fibrosis, which is recessive so a person suffering from it has no functional gene, and add a WT copy of the gene in to the appropriate cells, then you can correct the defective phenotye in those cells. You do not correct the defective gene, it is still there and always will be (for the time being anyways cause we do not have a technology that can rewrite the DNA in every cell of a body.)

By this same token, you cannot use gene therapy to "cure" sickle cell because the mutant allele is dominant. No matter how many normal copies of the allele you introduce you will still have the mutant being expressed and exerting its effect.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I can see how possibly some genes are redundant or close to redundant. For example, the spider morph and the pinstripe morph have a lot of similarities, even though they are on different loci. So maybe whatever those genes do, it is similar and possibly somewhat redundant. However, in that case, I would expect a spinner to be MORE likely to have problems with wobbles, rather than less. A normal, spider, pin, and spinner all have a total of 4 genes on those 2 loci. So a spinner doesn't have "more" genes; the only thing it has more of is mutated genes. Why would the pinstripe gene do a better job of filling in that gap in the allele (which I still don't really know what you mean by that, so forgive me if this makes no sense) than the normal gene on the pinstripe allele does? If anything, I would think that since the spider and pinstripe morphs have similarities, that a spinner would wobble MORE than a regular spider, because it has less normal genes, and more mutations.

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You posit an interesting idea there KC. Just because the spider and pin (and woma and GRP) are similar in phenotype they are not necessarily similar in genotype. Off hand I can think of a few different ways to alter pattern that are not genetically related so there would be no shared function between them and you would not therefore see any cumulative effect.

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And as far as an apparently totally unrelated gene, such as pastel, helping, I just don't see why or how it could. You said scoliosis is genetic in people, so I'm going to use that example even though I don't personally know if it is or not. Assume there is some sort of genetic therapy to treat scoliosis in people where they give a person a pill with some extra genes (again, I don't know if there is or not, and I don't think gene therapy is really just a pill, but simplifying in order to make a point). Do you think that what they do is put genes for blue eyes in that pill? Or give them normal copies of the gene of which they have a mutated version that causes the scoliosis?

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Yes, this is the point I was trying to make. You blue eye genes (pastel) is not going to fix the mutation of scoliosis (spider)..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

What I'm meaning by the "gap" and since we don't know its merely a theory. If you imagine DNA like a ladder with two sides one side having the info for the spider and the other the WT. If the spider gene is missing half of a rung that is responsible for motor function. Now lets just say the normal gene has its half of the info needed to make proper motor function happen but since the spider side doesn't it wobbles. Now lets say you add pastel in the mix again just for an example. You still have the WT side that makes motor function happen but now you also have the pastel gene in the mix that might match complete the gene needed for motor function.

It's just a theory no one really knows how or why they do the wobble thing but its fun to think about the ways it might happen.

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You can not have DNA floating around single stranded like that in the cell. DNA that is "missing" half a rung is damaged and repaired immediately. DNA repair is quite well studied.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Yes, this is the point I was trying to make. You blue eye genes (pastel) is not going to fix the mutation of scoliosis (spider)..

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I think we are just missing each other. I totally understand what your saying but I must be looking at it differently.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

You can not have DNA floating around single stranded like that in the cell. DNA that is "missing" half a rung is damaged and repaired immediately. DNA repair is quite well studied.

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Really?? very cool I did not know that..I wonder what effect if any that repaired DNA would have on the animal?

So I've gone back and looked up some threads in hopes that I would find the mention of combos showing less wobbles. I know I've read it numerous times and was trying to see who the source was just out of my own curiousity. I couldn't find anything (figures) but I know I didn't pull the information out of the air.

After searching through many threads I did find mention of quite of few combo morphs that showed wobble symptoms. Its seems that a few of the breeders that I respect believe that the combos are equally viable to show wobble symptoms as spiders.

I know when I'm wrong and for the record I would like to retract this statement made above...

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Adding the spider gene to a combo morph seems to strengthen it and reduces the frequency of wobbles appearing in combos vs. The spider gene on its own.

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I agree with asplundii saying it was too much of a blanket statement. I am however happy that this spurred the discussion it did since I think some good information was shared.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

I am however happy that this spurred the discussion it did since I think some good information was shared.

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x2! This has been a great discussion! :gj:

Damm what a mind storm... LOL
You know i just think that if some people say that every spider wobble you can say that every ball wobble a liitle bit. Dont You think so ??

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Really?? very cool I did not know that..I wonder what effect if any that repaired DNA would have on the animal?

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In theory, repaired DNA should have no effect as it should be just that -- repaired, fixed, same as normal :)

If the repair fails, the cell cycle should abort and the cell should be destroyed. If this fails, that's when you get mutation ...

It IS possible to have an "insertion mutation," in which you have extra base pairs inserted into the middle of a gene, or a deletion, in which case base pairs are deleted. However, I still don't see how another mutated gene could somehow "fix" that mutation, unless the mutation was recessive and the mutated gene just happened to miraculously code for the same protein as is defective in the first mutation. ... Just don't see that happening with the spider/neuro mutations.

That's very interesting that there are phenotypically normal spider sibs that show neuro signs -- definitely puts up a "plus one" to the linkage theory in my book ...

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Really?? very cool I did not know that..I wonder what effect if any that repaired DNA would have on the animal?

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

In theory, repaired DNA should have no effect as it should be just that -- repaired, fixed, same as normal :)

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Serpent beat me to it but he is correct. Repaired DNA should be no different from what it looked like before. There are some cases where the repair system glitches and you get a point mutation. However, for DNA damage to happens in every cell at the exact same place at the exact same time would be an almost impossible occurrence and to have all those damaged areas mis-repaired in the exact same way would be bordering on the near to infinitely impossible... So, the only way one of these mismatch point mutations is going to become obvious is if it occurs in a gamete and is later passed on. In most cases this is not going to make an obvious change but in some cases it may be the cause of a spontaneous mutation.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

So I've gone back and looked up some threads in hopes that I would find the mention of combos showing less wobbles. I know I've read it numerous times and was trying to see who the source was just out of my own curiousity. I couldn't find anything (figures) but I know I didn't pull the information out of the air.

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I never thought you pulled this idea out of thin air :gj: I have heard this rumor tossed around a few times. I think it is just something that is bound to happen when you are discussing a topic as volatile as the "wobble" in spiders. Like I said in an earlier post, the "wobble" is a stigma in this morph. In reality it probably should not be and if it had not been kept a "secret" in the early days then it probably would not have been. I think the best thing for the hobby in general would be to just embrace the fact that "wobble" goes with spider. If everyone just accepted it then there would not be a need for rumors to pop up around it.

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I know when I'm wrong and for the record I would like to retract this statement made above...

I agree with asplundii saying it was too much of a blanket statement. I am however happy that this spurred the discussion it did since I think some good information was shared.

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I was not trying to beat you down and I apologize if I came off that way. Sometimes I get a little overzealous.

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Originally Posted by kc261

x2! This has been a great discussion! :gj:

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You will not get any argument from me. It has been a great discussion and I have enjoyed it

No problem, a beat down here and there never hurt anybody :)

i heard somewhere that spiders have quite a voracious feeding response, mine has never missed a feed since i got it as a baby, (apart from breeding)

My male spider ate like a blood python. My female seems to want live :( but I'm hoping I can convert her over ...

I'm curious, though -- I had thought that the OP was asking if individual morphs have different personalities (as in, spiders are friendly, albinos are jerks, etc) ... Has anyone noticed this to be the case? I have heard that pieds tend to be terrible eaters, but that's about the only "personality" type association I've heard of.

(I know of course all of that is total hearsay, no scientific basis whatsoever, but I am curious as to what trends other morph owners may have noticed...)

When I got my woma I asked the breedier if the morph had any quirks and he said that like spiders they were vicious eaters.

I have heard the rumor that pied could be difficult.

Beyond those and the already mentioned caramels and supper cinny/black pastels I have not heard of any morph quirks

The breeder I got my mojave from said BHB told him all his mojaves are great eaters. I only own one but she never turns down a meal. I think she would stuff herself to the rim if I let her.

all of you have been amazing with information!! I am glad i started this thread it has beeen so helpful filled with great responses i thought i was going to get a simple answer but instead i got more information than my brain can digest!! i find myself reading it over and over to make sense of it all. I dont like the thought that out there in the wild or someones dinker project can form another gorgeous python with some type of neurological disorder or any disorder for that fact that might be sever to the point the ball python cant survive we might run into it we might not but you never know again thanks for all the great input guys! i have alot of + rep to give out lol :gj: