the only dumb question.....

is the one you don't ask!!

why do they call it axanthic and not anery when talking about ball pythons?

Because ball pythons have the yellow xanthophores and not the red/orange erythrophores :)

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Because ball pythons have the yellow xanthophores and not the red/orange erythrophores :)

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Hey, Doc...long time. Do you think its possible that pteridine pigments and carotinoids, because they can be found in the same organelle, may both be present in ball pythons but at much differing concentrations so that the red/orange is masked by an abundance of xanthin (and melanin)? I'm just wondering where the reddish brown hues come from. Because the pigments (pteridine and carotine) are found together in organelles of many species of snake, might a gene that knocks out xanthism also knock out erythrism? And if erythrophores are in small supply, would their visual detection be almost negligible? Just speculation, but I know that you could provide some insight on this.

that made my head hurt,,,,answer in short,,,thats just how it,,because they said so,,,,

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

is the one you don't ask!!

why do they call it axanthic and not anery when talking about ball pythons?

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This is an excellent question. Glad you asked. I don't think the answer is as easy as it seems.

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Originally Posted by RebelYell83

that made my head hurt,,,,answer in short,,,thats just how it,,because they said so,,,,

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Sorry, Rebel, didn't mean to kill your Friday. This is a topic that I started working on with Greg Graziani a year or so ago, but I dropped the ball because I got overwhelmed in trying to find contract electron microscopy laboratories that didn't charge a "caramel glow" for a couple of pics. Actually, its not THAT expensive, but still beyond my budget right now.

Hey Pirate,

I do not see any reason that both pigments could not be present in the chromatophore, like you noted, it is not at all uncommon that chromatophores contains more than one type of pigment, it is just that there is usually a significant abundance in one pigment type so it is the only one you see.

As far as BPs in specific all I can do is speculate. Without an complete BP genome or a detailed enzymology scan we really can not say anything with any certainty. So, bearing in mind that I am doing nothing more than speculating, the reddish hue in BPs could indeed be in part due to the presence of carotenoids in the chromatophores. I would guess there probably are carotenoids in the xanthophores and I would venture to say that the "high contrast" albinos have a higher concentration of carotenoids in the xanthophores than "low contrast" animals have. There may be carotenoids in the melanophores but it is also possible that the reddish hue is just an artifact of their melanin/melanophores and has no relation to carotenoids (I am inclined to think this more likely as the T- albinos show no trace of red blushing on the areas that lack xanthophores.)

I do not think axanthism would necessarily knock out the "erythrism". Been a long time since I have done any reading on chromatophores but IIRC pigment mutations do not tend to disrupt the chromatophore, instead they disrupt the pigment production. So I believe that even in axanthic animals the xanthophore is actually present, it is just that the pteridine pigments are not being produced/transported to the chromatophore. And since the chromatophore is still there then there should still be a place for carotenoids to be housed.

I'll bend my brain on this more over the weekend and see if I can come up with any more ideas.

And I'd love to hear more about what you and Greg were working at/on

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Hey Pirate,

I do not see any reason that both pigments could not be present in the chromatophore, like you noted, it is not at all uncommon that chromatophores contains more than one type of pigment, it is just that there is usually a significant abundance in one pigment type so it is the only one you see.

As far as BPs in specific all I can do is speculate. Without an complete BP genome or a detailed enzymology scan we really can not say anything with any certainty. So, bearing in mind that I am doing nothing more than speculating, the reddish hue in BPs could indeed be in part due to the presence of carotenoids in the chromatophores. I would guess there probably are carotenoids in the xanthophores and I would venture to say that the "high contrast" albinos have a higher concentration of carotenoids in the xanthophores than "low contrast" animals have. There may be carotenoids in the melanophores but it is also possible that the reddish hue is just an artifact of their melanin/melanophores and has no relation to carotenoids (I am inclined to think this more likely as the T- albinos show no trace of red blushing on the areas that lack xanthophores.)

I do not think axanthism would necessarily knock out the "erythrism". Been a long time since I have done any reading on chromatophores but IIRC pigment mutations do not tend to disrupt the chromatophore, instead they disrupt the pigment production. So I believe that even in axanthic animals the xanthophore is actually present, it is just that the pteridine pigments are not being produced/transported to the chromatophore. And since the chromatophore is still there then there should still be a place for carotenoids to be housed.

I'll bend my brain on this more over the weekend and see if I can come up with any more ideas.

And I'd love to hear more about what you and Greg were working at/on

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That was clear as mud but it does cover the ground:confused: However I'm so glad there are people out there researching our industry. This can only be good for all of us. By the way you already bent my brain:D

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Hey Pirate,

I do not see any reason that both pigments could not be present in the chromatophore, like you noted, it is not at all uncommon that chromatophores contains more than one type of pigment, it is just that there is usually a significant abundance in one pigment type so it is the only one you see.

As far as BPs in specific all I can do is speculate. Without an complete BP genome or a detailed enzymology scan we really can not say anything with any certainty. So, bearing in mind that I am doing nothing more than speculating, the reddish hue in BPs could indeed be in part due to the presence of carotenoids in the chromatophores. I would guess there probably are carotenoids in the xanthophores and I would venture to say that the "high contrast" albinos have a higher concentration of carotenoids in the xanthophores than "low contrast" animals have. There may be carotenoids in the melanophores but it is also possible that the reddish hue is just an artifact of their melanin/melanophores and has no relation to carotenoids (I am inclined to think this more likely as the T- albinos show no trace of red blushing on the areas that lack xanthophores.)

I do not think axanthism would necessarily knock out the "erythrism". Been a long time since I have done any reading on chromatophores but IIRC pigment mutations do not tend to disrupt the chromatophore, instead they disrupt the pigment production. So I believe that even in axanthic animals the xanthophore is actually present, it is just that the pteridine pigments are not being produced/transported to the chromatophore. And since the chromatophore is still there then there should still be a place for carotenoids to be housed.

I'll bend my brain on this more over the weekend and see if I can come up with any more ideas.

And I'd love to hear more about what you and Greg were working at/on

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Knew I could count on you. I'll think more about what you said this weekend, too, and get back with you.

Wow I need to break out my VPI book and re-read that Skin and Color section...my head-o-phores are going to explode!

I can't quite follow all of what gene pirate and asplundii are talking about, but I will say it sure is refreshing to see a thread that goes a lot deeper than "if I pair my het pied with my pastel, will I get pastel pieds?"

Thanks guys!

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Originally Posted by GenePirate

This is an excellent question. Glad you asked. I don't think the answer is as easy as it seems.



Sorry, Rebel, didn't mean to kill your Friday. This is a topic that I started working on with Greg Graziani a year or so ago, but I dropped the ball because I got overwhelmed in trying to find contract electron microscopy laboratories that didn't charge a "caramel glow" for a couple of pics. Actually, its not THAT expensive, but still beyond my budget right now.

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You should have posted here if you were looking for some SEM imaging. I have access to one, for free.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Wow I need to break out my VPI book and re-read that Skin and Color section...my head-o-phores are going to explode!

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Head-o-phores--that's classic! LOL I won't soon forget that one! :rofl:

i need to pick up this VPI book. does it cover pigmentation and how its expressed in the different morphs?

My book is in my desk at work, so when I get in on monday I will look through it and see. Nothing in detail, that much I can remember. Its a beautiful book though lots of great pictures and good information. Well worth the $75 bucks IMO.

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Originally Posted by tonkatoyman

That was clear as mud but it does cover the ground:confused: However I'm so glad there are people out there researching our industry. This can only be good for all of us. By the way you already bent my brain:D

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Sorry I bent your brain and was clear as mud, I do tend to lapse into jargon when I am talking with someone who is in my field.

I can work to keep it at a more layman level if you like.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I can't quite follow all of what gene pirate and asplundii are talking about, but I will say it sure is refreshing to see a thread that goes a lot deeper than "if I pair my het pied with my pastel, will I get pastel pieds?"

Thanks guys!

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Always glad to hear that people appreciate the deep stuff even if it is a little jargon filled. Thanks :gj:

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Originally Posted by GenePirate

Knew I could count on you. I'll think more about what you said this weekend, too, and get back with you.

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Well, I thought on it and I did not come up with a lot more. Considering all the types of albino (T- and all the different T+) I am leaning more toward my speculation that there is some character of the BP melanin itself that lends to the overall reddish tint on the animals. I do not know how best to articulate my reasoning but the lack of any red cast in the T- albino but the obvious purple/red hue to the various T+ albinos just makes me lean toward that being the most likely explanation.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

i need to pick up this VPI book. does it cover pigmentation and how its expressed in the different morphs?

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Hey Lucas,

I checked my book and they do not go over how the pigmentation is expressed in morphs. They do you a couple pages worth of information on melanophores, xanthophores, and iridophores.