Reporting animal abuse/neglect - help please? DUW

This is the situation - I applied for a volunteer job working with this organization that houses and does educational shows with exotic animals. I was very excited since they have just about every animal you can think of - and today I interviewed and she invited me to go with her to one of the places they own to see the animals.

I got there and I was horrified - the small mammals had at least an inch or two of poop at the bottom of their tanks and many of the reptiles had empty/extremely dirty water bowls and only a small overhead lamp for heat, not to mention poop in their cases so long it looked petrified. These animals are kept in a warehouse like place that must have heat but is very cool - I was chilly in jeans and a long sleeve shirt.

I tried to get some pictures (below) when she was looking the other way - in this location they had 2 chinchillas, 2 ferrets, 2 small mammals I didn't know, 8 birds, a bunny, a red tail boa, a hognose snake, a ball python, 4 beardies in one tank about the size of a 20long, 4 other tanks with lizards I didn't recognize (including a gecco that had a broken heat lamp and she said he was fine.), and 2 separate tanks with some kind of turtles.

After this we went to one of the guy's house to feed his pets and in his house (where he has two little kids she told me) he had 6 dogs, 2 micro pot belly pigs, 3 cats, 6 birds, 8 rats, a fish tank so dirty you couldn't see the fish, a guinea pig and a wild chipmunk he caught. The female rat had spilled her water so I asked the girl if she was gonna clean it and she did and there was probably at least 3 or 4 inches of bedding that was wet and moldy and came out as one solid lump because of all the feces and everything in it. Also because they have exotic animal licence a catimundi (sp?) from the raccoon family - it reeked in the house - where the animals were split up there was urine and poop everywhere (4 of the dogs were kept in the back shed - 2 of the dogs and the 2 pigs kept in a back room).

As we were leaving he arrived back from his trip - with two more catimundi and two bobcats - one of which will go to live on their farm and one in their house. I shudder to think how bad the situation is for these pets at the farm - because even though these pets were just his and maybe that is just how he takes care of them - the girl I was with who runs half of it didn't seem to think anything was out of the ordinary. Can anyone give me information about these animals in the pics of things you know are wrong/unhealthy - I know some about BPs but I'm not sure what the other animals should or shouldn't have.

Most of the animals could not be handled either - she said they aren't friendly because they don't get hanlded much. As I said though - there are 4 beardies in one tank - (I didn't know if that was normal or not), all the snakes only have a small light on top for heating - the ball python only has a long leaning against another for his hide (you can see him circled in there - and the other things that are circled are 2 full sheds and petrified poop still in the tank), they obviously don't quarentine since the red tail they told me just got rescued a few weeks ago and is in with the other snakes - its water was black it was so dirty. That thing the hognose is in is a completely dry and full of bedding water bowl. The chinchillas had a dust bath house in there (they keep it in there) that was full of poop and they were just sitting in it.

How should I go about this - I don't know what to say to her about the volunteering (I pretended to think it was fine because I was tryign to get names and addresses) and I don't know exactly what I should do. Am I overexaggerating reporting them to aspca/humane society? They seem to care about animals - but these animals are in digusting conditions -she herself said that she has 3 squirrels and 6 cats in her apartment and they all run free - I'm sure that is quite healthy too... How should I go about this - am I overreacting? What would you do?

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Call them in!!! It sounds horrible! they arn't going to change just because you told them too. Letting the animals get this bad proves they don't actually care. They sound like hoarders to me.. very bad situation... please get them out of there!

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Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

Call them in!!! It sounds horrible! they arn't going to change just because you told them too. Letting the animals get this bad proves they don't actually care. They sound like hoarders to me.. very bad situation... please get them out of there!

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They actually have an organization with a exotic animal license. From what I gather they have alligators, bobcats, wolves, 3 different kinds of monkeys, many different kinds of small mammals, many more snakes and lizards (I've seen pics of the albino burmese), many kinds of birds - pigs, the list goes on and on. I'm not sure whether or not I should post the website for thier organization on here.

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

They actually have an organization with a exotic animal license. From what I gather they have alligators, bobcats, wolves, 3 different kinds of monkeys, many different kinds of small mammals, many more snakes and lizards (I've seen pics of the albino burmese), many kinds of birds - pigs, the list goes on and on. I'm not sure whether or not I should post the website for thier organization on here.

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Then that really depresses me then! isn't there code for places like this. If there are regulations and inspections for restaurants there should be some for places like this.... I dunno... I guess your going to do what your going to do but I would say call them in. The animals don't deserve this.

ASPCA

Fish and Wildlife

Thats a start...maybe call the non emergency police number to see if they have any suggestions for you?

I have to say though the pics dont look bad I mean I clen my snake cages every time the go but really my beardies go poo all the time and I dont clean it every time it sounds really bad but then the pics confuse me because they look ok are the pics not of the bad things you saw?

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Originally Posted by sjsexotics

I have to say though the pics dont look bad I mean I clen my snake cages every time the go but really my beardies go poo all the time and I dont clean it every time it sounds really bad but then the pics confuse me because they look ok are the pics not of the bad things you saw?

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The pics of the reptiles were more about how they were being housed - I was tryign to get information about if those set ups are okay or not. All the water bowls in the snake tanks (except the hognose - that picture I got before) I cleaned and filled when the girl said they didn't need water every day.

I know the pictures aren't very clear - I only had my cell phone - but the snake tanks all had old poop in them and minimal heat. The ball pythons tank had 2 sheds in it as well as old poop - and the red tail had a shed in there as well that you could tell was more than a few days old. She also said the beardies ate thursday so they didn't need food today (saturday morning) - which I have no idea if they eat everyday or if they are like snakes. I couldn't get any of the mammals because she didn't leave in the room with them alone at all.

i would agree with luna in that they sound like horders. it might have started out with the best of intentions, then got out of hand, or they liked the attention that the "exotics" were bringing them. i would call aspca and tell them what you know. have them do a "drop in" where they arnt notified of an inspection, cuz if they know its going to happen, im sure they clean up in a hurry. best of luck

Is it possible that they have good intentions and have taken on more abandoned animals than they can handle? Could this be why they are seeking volunteers? Could you make a bigger difference by helping them care for the animals rather than just reporting them to somebody? I don't know the answers to these questions I am just posing them. If you really feel that they are an inappropriate organization you should report them.

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Originally Posted by sjsexotics

I have to say though the pics dont look bad I mean I clen my snake cages every time the go but really my beardies go poo all the time and I dont clean it every time it sounds really bad but then the pics confuse me because they look ok are the pics not of the bad things you saw?

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You do not clean your beardies cage every time it poops? If that is so then you really need to reconsider having one. That is way irresponsible and I cant imagine what your tank looks like. I'm sorry that im coming off blunt but that habit needs to be changed right now.

Are you also not seeing the main problem? FOUR beardies in a small tank, that is a recipe for disaster. You shouldn't even have ONE beardie that size in a tank that small. Not to mention I highly doubt she gives them the correct uvb and supplements, or the right amount of food. I can't believe that those are still alive, im guessing that they are all the same sex because if not she will have dead beardies very soon.
Id keep going but I do not want to write a caresheet...

To the op- Maybe ask if you can help change/correct things? And if they refuse your help then do something.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Are you also not seeing the main problem? FOUR beardies in a small tank, that is a recipe for disaster. You shouldn't even have ONE beardie that size in a tank that small. Not to mention I highly doubt she gives them the correct uvb and supplements, or the right amount of food. I can't believe that those are still alive, im guessing that they are all the same sex because if not she will have dead beardies very soon.
Id keep going but I do not want to write a caresheet...

To the op- Maybe ask if you can help change/correct things? And if they refuse your help then do something.

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Thanks for that information - like I said Idon't know anything about bearded dragons and I didn't know if that was normal practice or not.

I'd like to try to help them - but that won't change all the animals he has living in his house which is unhealthy for both the animals and his children. Also, I'm worried that I won'tbe able to help with that much change - this was a tiny facility - theyhave a 11 acre or so farm with many more of the animals and then several keep them in their home- even with my help I honestly don't think they have the manpower or abilities to properly care for all these animals. I'm really trying to figure out the best way to do this for everyone involved, especially the animals.

This sounds like a case where a person is lonley so they take in a lot of animals. There are so many she doesn't have time to take care of them and doesn't know she is doing harm. Good luck helping the animals.

Also - the lady was telling me the "plans" for this organization and they are all over the place. I have no doubt that it will run itself into the ground in a couple years - and then what will happen to all the animals?

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Originally Posted by TheMolenater2

This sounds like a case where a person is lonley so they take in a lot of animals. There are so many she doesn't have time to take care of them and doesn't know she is doing harm. Good luck helping the animals.

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Its an organization - and from what she is telling me they have in the hundreds of animals between the 4 of them.

Stacey, since none of us were there to see (and likely smell) the state these animals were kept in, in the end it's going to be your gut instinct that gives you the right answer. If your gut says those animals were being improperly or even inhumanely kept then you likely want to let someone know. If they are "licensed" then notify that licensing agency (Fish & Game or whatever). Let your local animal protection agency know about your concerns.

Considering these folks do educational shows, if they are bringing animals that live in their own feces and moldy caging to shows, and allowing child to touch these animals, then a health concern to humans could also be present.

it started as hoarding then they got a license so it didn't look so bad to the public is my veiw.

Maybe I am just confused. What did you volunteer for? If everything were perfect and all the cages were clean... what exactly would you be volunteering to do?

Why would you want to turn them in?! they accepted YOU as a volunteer! That means:

#1 they know and admit they need help.
#2 they want YOU to help!

I think you even beginning to consider contacting the authorities at this point would be a knee jerk reaction. As you are "volunteering...." clean the tanks! help them fine tune their setups! Help them develop a schedule so things don't get so bad again! If you THINK you know something they don't tell them.

Now I am not suggesting that there are not things that obviously need to be corrected here, but also remember the golden rule.... don't assume your way of doing things is the only right way.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Maybe I am just confused. What did you volunteer for? If everything were perfect and all the cages were clean... what exactly would you be volunteering to do?

Why would you want to turn them in?! they accepted YOU as a volunteer! That means:

#1 they know and admit they need help.
#2 they want YOU to help!

I think you even beginning to consider contacting the authorities at this point would be a knee jerk reaction. As you are "volunteering...." clean the tanks! help them fine tune their setups! Help them develop a schedule so things don't get so bad again! If you THINK you know something they don't tell them.

Now I am not suggesting that there are not things that obviously need to be corrected here, but also remember the golden rule.... don't assume your way of doing things is the only right way.

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I actually volunteered to help with the computer and website side of it - she was showing me the animals to give me an idea of what they do. I was excited about the animals when I asked about volunteering and she told me that they have enough people for the animals and that they were looking for volunteers that were computer savvy to help with that.

Well if they think they have "enough" people I wonder what these "enough" people are doing since by what you said, it sure ain't cleaning tanks. :mad:

Look even if I was overwhelmed, I'd still bloody well tidy up the critters before I'd take a volunteer or anyone else through. That's just nasty to show off your animals while they sit there in their own waste products! However, since you were volunteering to do computer stuff and not direct animal care and by this person's response, well it sounds like they think their conditions are just nifty.

Like I said before, if your assessment is these animals are neglected or being cared for incorrectly....report these people. We don't need "educators" that can't educate themselves on proper husbandry for each species they keep.

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Originally Posted by mykaija

i would agree with luna in that they sound like horders. it might have started out with the best of intentions, then got out of hand, or they liked the attention that the "exotics" were bringing them. i would call aspca and tell them what you know. have them do a "drop in" where they arnt notified of an inspection, cuz if they know its going to happen, im sure they clean up in a hurry. best of luck

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ASPCA is going to need a search warrant and what is provided here is not nearly enough for that. It looks like the licenseing agency is going to be the NY Dept. of Environmental Services and they will be more than happy to look into it as I have talked with some of there officers. Good luck and.. cheers'

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

The pics of the reptiles were more about how they were being housed - I was tryign to get information about if those set ups are okay or not. All the water bowls in the snake tanks (except the hognose - that picture I got before) I cleaned and filled when the girl said they didn't need water every day.

I know the pictures aren't very clear - I only had my cell phone - but the snake tanks all had old poop in them and minimal heat. The ball pythons tank had 2 sheds in it as well as old poop - and the red tail had a shed in there as well that you could tell was more than a few days old. She also said the beardies ate thursday so they didn't need food today (saturday morning) - which I have no idea if they eat everyday or if they are like snakes. I couldn't get any of the mammals because she didn't leave in the room with them alone at all.

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ok well yes that is an issue beardies should always have veggies avalibable that being said though they dont look to be to thin ya snakes haveing more then one poop there cage is sad husbendry since they poop only once every week or two

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Well if they think they have "enough" people I wonder what these "enough" people are doing since by what you said, it sure ain't cleaning tanks. :mad:

Look even if I was overwhelmed, I'd still bloody well tidy up the critters before I'd take a volunteer or anyone else through. That's just nasty to show off your animals while they sit there in their own waste products! However, since you were volunteering to do computer stuff and not direct animal care and by this person's response, well it sounds like they think their conditions are just nifty.

Like I said before, if your assessment is these animals are neglected or being cared for incorrectly....report these people. We don't need "educators" that can't educate themselves on proper husbandry for each species they keep.

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Thanks.

The fact that she didn't even try to make excuses for it tells me that she doesn't think there is anything wrong with it. And even if they were receptive to me helping them there I still can't do anything about all the animals at his house since they aren't program animals.

Also, since this is such a small group whereas the other facility they have has 100s of animals I don't think they are capable of taking care of them - even if they knew what they should be doing. (and on that note - maybe they don't know the proper husbandry for reptiles - but anyone knows that poop should be cleaned up).

I'm going to talk to her tomorrow and ask her about the condition of the animals and the cages and see what she says - but even if they are receptive to my suggestions I don't think they have the manpower, time or money for all the animals they have - and even with the best of intentions that is a problem.

I don't think they have bad intentions but I don't think they are capable of taking care of these animals. In fact, she was telling me how she rents and the 3 squirrels she has are tearing up the place that she rents and she hopes the landlord doesn't find out - which is always a sign of a irresponsible pet owner - and if they can't take care of their animals at home I don't have much faith in them being able to take care of exotic animals that need special care.

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

I'm going to talk to her tomorrow and ask her about the condition of the animals and the cages and see what she says - but even if they are receptive to my suggestions I don't think they have the manpower, time or money for all the animals they have - and even with the best of intentions that is a problem.

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"security" stacy, sounds like you have already made up your mind. Are you going to help re-home all of these animals when the man comes and takes them away? You know, the animal cop guy who thinks someone clearly has a problem if they have more then 3 snakes....

I am sorry, but with everyting you described it would be absolutely unaceptable to "turn them in" without first mentioning your concerns, and second, allowing them time to reply or address your concerns.

Who are you? the animal police?!!! you see a few tanks that need to be cleaned out and assume they are not "fit" to care for their animals?! Even more, you assume that they don't have the manpower, time, or money for the animals they have?

Talkabout judgemental.... JEESH!

LOL!!!

Now it really makes sense that you want to report this guy to "the authorities...."

Please allow me to remind you of a thread that YOU just started!!!

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

I'm watching Animal Planet and they did a "bust" on someone’s place that had reptiles (I guess they aren't allowed in San Francisco) and they made it sound horrible. Usually animal planet does a good job but... the guy has mostly BPs (include a pretty pretty piebald), I might have seen a Burmese, rainbow boa, jcp, red tail and a couple I don't recognize (boas and pythons though, and no reticulateds) and there are only 26 - and the officer is saying that it is a dangerous collection that could kill or seriously injure a large grown man. AND that having that many means that the man has an unnatural obsession with snakes.

He had them all in a nice rack set up - he was breeding mice to feed them and every single one was able to be handled without so much as a tag or hiss and the show is making sound like it was this horrible underground black market trading ring. They say that with this many snakes he must be into *gasp* trading.

This isn't the first time either - they picked up a Burmese on another episode (animal cops) and the guy said he had picked one up that was like 20' before and it ate a 60 lbs pig (which the narrator then pointed out was the size of a 7 year old child).


They do such a good job of challenging myths about pitbulls, I wish they would do the same about snakes.

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LOL

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Originally Posted by mcavana

LOL!!!

Now it really makes sense that you want to report this guy to "the authorities...."

Please allow me to remind you of a thread that YOU just started!!!



LOL

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Because I had a problem with them taking animals from a guy that was taking good care of them and they were all healthy and treated well that means I shouldn't want them to take animals away from people that aren't taking care of them?

I'm sorry - I don't see the connection. They removed those snakes from that man because they are illegal to have in San Fransciso - not because they weren't being taken care of. And I was also not happy with them saying that the snakes were "deadly".

I don't see how that is the same as them having hundreds of animals in unsanitary conditions and me wanting them removed to better homes.

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

I don't see how that is the same as them having hundreds of animals in unsanitary conditions and me wanting them removed to better homes.

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Calling the animal po-po on reptile people should be a last ditch effort. Ultimately animal po-po often thinks that someone with say a 30 snake collection is sick in the head, and they automaticly assume there is a "problem" There is a BIG difference between having 30 dogs in a house, and having 30 snakes in a house! Many people without first hand experience do not understand that.

Don't make stuff up to try to strengthen your position. Your first thread very clearly explained that you only saw one property, and if I am adding things up correctly the guy had approx 30 animals, and 8 of them were rats!

So, other then the rats, this guy had 22 animals. How, with your expertise of having one snake, were you able to determine that these 22 animals with cages that needed to be cleaned automaticly mean that they have HUNDREDS of animals in unsanitary conditions?! LOL, oh yeah, and that they don't have the manpower, or the money to fix things if they knew as much as you knew.

Quit being a drama queen and talk to the lady about it. "Volunteer" to help. Be part of the solution, not the problem.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Don't make stuff up to try to strengthen your position. Your first thread very clearly explained that you only saw one property, and if I am adding things up correctly the guy had approx 30 animals, and 8 of them were rats!

So, other then the rats, this guy had 22 animals. How, with your expertise of having one snake, were you able to determine that these 22 animals with cages that needed to be cleaned automaticly mean that they have HUNDREDS of animals in unsanitary conditions?! LOL, oh yeah, and that they don't have the manpower, or the money to fix things if they knew as much as you knew.

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Listen, you really don't have to attack me. I came on here to find out how I should go about this and I said I was going to talk to the lady - I didn't say 100% they wouldnt have the time or manpower, but I'm guessing the won't.

Yes, the guy had 30 animals in his house - filled with pig, cat and dog poop and urine where his two little kids live. No reptiles here.

The other location had approx 24 animals - 7 mammals, the rest broke up between reptiles and birds. And I even said that I posted pictures of the reptile cages to find out if that was okay for them to be housed since I didn't know that much about reptiles.

I'm sorry you have an issue with the police. Informing the DEC to have a look at the place and make sure they are taking proper care of their animals shouldn't be a worry if they are taking care of their animals.

[QUOTE=
Yes, the guy had 30 animals in his house - filled with pig, cat and dog poop and urine where his two little kids live. No reptiles here.
.[/QUOTE]

Sorry people but a dog is a dog and a snake is a snake . . . If anyone should be called it's social services for the children. Under no circumstances should children be living in a house with animal crap and urine all over the floor. It is a health hazard and just plain gross.

It's nice that you are trying to help Stacey but IMO the bigger issue are the children.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

"security" stacy, sounds like you have already made up your mind. Are you going to help re-home all of these animals when the man comes and takes them away? You know, the animal cop guy who thinks someone clearly has a problem if they have more then 3 snakes....

I am sorry, but with everyting you described it would be absolutely unaceptable to "turn them in" without first mentioning your concerns, and second, allowing them time to reply or address your concerns.

Who are you? the animal police?!!! you see a few tanks that need to be cleaned out and assume they are not "fit" to care for their animals?! Even more, you assume that they don't have the manpower, time, or money for the animals they have?

Talkabout judgemental.... JEESH!

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Mike I think your the one jumping to conclusions here.

You weren't there, and by her small sampling of pictures, (which she has explained she wanted opinions on for size husbandry issues etc), there isn't enough for any of us to jump to conclusions that she is just out to play hero here.

Knowing what I do of your personality, I think you would have confronted them right there and pulled out an answer, however not everyone is comfortable with confrontation. :rolleyes:

She has also said before you posted this that she will be asking them if they need help with the husbandry, because she does not feel that it is humane or acceptable.

Lets talk about knee jerk reactions Mike, yours seems to me to be the biggest knee jerk reaction. She was asking for some advice, voiced her concerns and is going to take the issue further with the licensed individuals. What more could she have done to avoid you labeling that as a knee jerk reaction? :confused:

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

I'm sorry you have an issue with the police. Informing the DEC to have a look at the place and make sure they are taking proper care of their animals shouldn't be a worry if they are taking care of their animals.

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You are missing the point completely. You should not just contact the police or the DEC just because you spot dirty cages, or even a dirty house and you want them to be checked out... ESPECIALLY when reptiles are involved.

I understand there are mamals involved to, but since this is a ball python forum, I will talk about the reptiles.

In a lot of places there are no clear cut rules about keeping reptiles. If the investigating officer determins based on his own opinion that the person has too many animals, or that they aren't being kept right, there are a lot of BAD things they can do... including attempting to take the animals away from their keepers!!!!

The way I see it you have 3 options:

1.) mind your own business and do nothing
2.) offer to help get things cleaned up and set up to what you see as correct.
3.) tell them that they need to fix things or you are going to report it... then give them a reasonable amount of time to fix things.

If you tell them to fix things, and they don't... then you can consider calling the authorities.

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Originally Posted by mcavana

You are missing the point completely. You should not just contact the police or the DEC just because you spot dirty cages, or even a dirty house and you want them to be checked out... ESPECIALLY when reptiles are involved.

I understand there are mamals involved to, but since this is a ball python forum, I will talk about the reptiles.

In a lot of places there are no clear cut rules about keeping reptiles. If the investigating officer determins based on his own opinion that the person has too many animals, or that they aren't being kept right, there are a lot of BAD things they can do... including attempting to take the animals away from their keepers!!!!

The way I see it you have 3 options:

1.) mind your own business and do nothing
2.) offer to help get things cleaned up and set up to what you see as correct.
3.) tell them that they need to fix things or you are going to report it... then give them a reasonable amount of time to fix things.

If you tell them to fix things, and they don't... then you can consider calling the authorities.

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Yea, it is a ball python forum - but as you can see this is in the off topic section.

Also, as I pointed out - one of my major concerns was the state of his house where his kids live and there is not one reptile located at his house.

As for there being several ways and differing opinions on how to house reptiles - is there one reptile owner here that will argue that you don't need to clean poop out of their tanks? How often does a snake poop that they aren't cleaning it out? How often do they shed - that ball python had old poop and 2 different sheds in its tank. Will people argue that snakes don't need access to clean water?

I have repeatedly said that I would talk to them. As for correcting them - the reptiles and their husbandry is a small part. At his house, full of feces and urine, do you think he thinks that is normal prodcedure for having pets? And it goes beyond housing - these dogs, cats and pot belly pigs - how much time is he spending with them? I work at two local animal shelters that just have dogs and cats, so I'm not completely unaware of what kind of damage that is done to animals that are not played with, are not petted or have time spent with them. When you do this they are just property - just something to collect. The dogs and cats don't even have names and these are supposed to be his pets.

I'm not saying these people don't care about their animals, but that isn't enough. If I have a dog and I don't feed him because I can't afford it even though I care for it or I don't have time the result is the same as it would be if I didn't feed him because I just didn't care. I only have 3 pets - two mice and a snake - I would love to have more pets but I acknowledge that I don't have time for more between my job, the (other) shelters I volunteer at and my little brothers, and that I couldn't give them the time that they need, so I don't pick up more animals. People need to be able to recognize that.

that just sucks!! no animal should be kept in an unclean unhealthy environment...

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

What more could she have done to avoid you labeling that as a knee jerk reaction? :confused:

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HMMM.. :rolleyes:

Lets see. She could have on the spot said something, or offered some of her "volunteer" time to help them keep up with things. She did not have to be confontational. She could have simply said, "wow, you guys have a lot of animals, and these tanks are a mess! I will be happy to help you catch back up!"

But no, her knee jerk reaction was to take the following steps:

1.) Take pictures of their animals WITHOUT permission.

2.) Immediately post the pictures she took WITHOUT permission on a public web site... once again WITHOUT permission.

3.) Then in the post with the pictures WITHOUT permission, she gives a very detailed description of how horrible they were doing things... and even goes so far as to question their parenting!!!

4.) Last, she even draws conclusions that ALL of their sites must be this bad, that they don't have the money to provide things properly, and that they don't have the manpower to correct the problems.

Yeah, I would say that her actions are a pretty good example of a "knee jerk reaction."

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Originally Posted by mcavana

Yeah, I would say that her actions are a pretty good example of a "knee jerk reaction."

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Not everyone has the clarity, high tolerance and wisdom you do Mike. She clearly didn't want to push the issue just meeting them. That IS confrontation, even though you dont see it that way... She would rather gather her thoughts and decide what to do after seeking advice. (amazing...)

I dont think it was deserving to mock her and her questions, once again you were NOT there. I think your posts just need to simmer down a little. It was a question on what to do, and she has clearly taken the advice to ask to help them. (that was in your little list there btw)

I dont know the full extent of what rights or laws are in place for taking pictures and posting them. I don't really care either but you just decided that this was somehow a knee jerk reaction. How is taking pictures a knee jerk reaction when you USE the pictures to seek further advice in to whether or not it IS abuse??? Sounds like she was using them to AVOID a knee jerk reaction.


It's my opinion that formulating an opinion or conclusion is not a knee jerk reaction, it is just an opinion and open to change.

Why can't you just see this thread for what it was? She wants help and advice, she wants to help them, and that's all so far she has done.

She has NOT called anyone to report them, so again, where are the knee jerk reactions you see that validate mocking her and belittling her efforts?

Connie,

Did I date you or something in a previous life?

LOL, you follow me around and argue with anything I EVER say or contribute. you sure do sound and act like a nagging X girlfriend would sound and act... however I do not recall the "good times"

She asked for an opinion, and I am giving her an opinion. Hopefully she has taken a minute to actually think about the things I am saying.

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As far as the pictures.... Sit back, relax, and seriously consider this hypothetical situation. I know it is long winded, but if you TRY you should understand the point.

You just returned from a two day trip to Daytona where you picked up two new snakes. Your good friend (Julie) comes by unexpectingly to drop off something. She has a girlfriend (stacey) with her that you don't know. You invite them in. Stacey notices one of your snakes and asks you about it because she thinks snakes are beautiful and very interesting. Stacey used to own a garter snake as a child and thinks she knows a lot about snakes. You start showing some more of your collection because she is obviously interested.

Stacey is secretly horrified. She can not believe you keep so many snakes. She thinks it is cruel that you keep them in tubs in a rack system. as you pull a few out of the tubs, she notices that a few of the tubs are soaked with urin. she sees huge logs of fecies in a few too. Some of the water bowls were empty because they had been tipped over. (Remember you just came in from out of town, and were about to go through the tubs when they came unexpectantly). Stacey thinks the smell is horrible. She can't believe you can't even afford substrate, and are using newspaper. And she sees that you just got two more snakes!!! She secretly HATES you at this point.

You excuse yourself for a second to use the restroom... while you are gone Stacey secretly takes pictures of YOUR animals, and YOUR racks... She even cracks open the poop and pee filled tubs and snaps pictures of the poor snakes. You come back from the bathroom and she just smiles and pretends that she is perfectly comfortable and nothing is wrong.

As soon as stacey gets home she downloads the pictures of YOUR stuff that she took without your permission, and posts the pictures on a PUBLIC K-9 web site that she frequents... When she posts the pictures, she openly discusses how discusting it was, and how cruel you were. She rambles on about how you obviously can't take care of all those snakes, and they are living in filth. She explains how your two young children were in the same room as the snakes, walking right past the urin soaked tubs. She suggests that you can't afford to take care of them, and that you don't have the manpower to keep up. And that you just got two more snakes when you obviously can not even take care of the ones you have already!

She tells her K-9 buddies that she is considering calling the authorities to have you checked out. Her K-9 friends agree that as long as you are doing everything right, you shouldn't have a problem when the animal Po-Po pays you a visit. So she calls to have you investigated.


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After reading this, do you think "so what! send the animal police to my house! I take care of my snakes by the book! my husbandry is by the book!!!"

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Wake up and smell the coffee.

Hopefully you have already considered this, but most towns / cities have BS local rules that you don't know about... The kind that says you can only keep so many pets in a home.... You know that you are doing everything by the book care wise, but the officer that visits you likely doesn't... however he is familiar with the rule that limits you to X number of snakes. Bye-bye snake collection.

MOST of us have way more snakes then those rules would allow. Most animal police are NOT familiar with the benefits of keeping Ball Pythons in tubs. MOST ANIMAL POLICE WOULD ASSUME VERY BAD THINGS THE MOMENT THEY HEAR YOU HAVE 30+ SNAKES!!!

Mike, you've made your point several times. It's fine to be passionate about your point of view, it is not fine, however, to call names and insult others that disagree with you.

There are times that you can be articulate and kind at the same time, and then there are others, like this - that you tend to appear to lose yourself in your passion and it rages to the point that your message is lost in your anger.

You are welcome to continue to post in this thread, however, I caution you to take it down several notches and cease with the insults being slung at other members. Thanks in advance for your cooperation and understanding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Mike, you've made your point several times.

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LOL! well at least someone got my point!!!! :8:

My work is done....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcavana

LOL! well at least someone got my point!!!! :8:

My work is done....

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why do you think it is funny to be rude and abrasive? you must have a really tall computer desk to be able to reach your keyboard from atop your high horse. if your last 10 or so posts are what you call "your work", i think you should look for another job.

If they have kids, and the place is that bad.. I would just call child-protective-services.

I can see Mike's point, but I don't think that's the case in this situation. I'm surprised that nobody has brought it up to this point, but if there was a bp in a tank with dried feces and TWO full sheds, it's probably safe to assume that the tank hadn't been cleaned in a month. Unless you have bps that shed twice while you're gone for a weekend...

As for the animals, I would probably offer to help clean some tanks for them, and to help with the husbandry. As for the children, if they're living conditions are as bad as it sounds from your description, I would be on the phone to child protective services and have someone drop in to check on them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

If they have kids, and the place is that bad.. I would just call child-protective-services.

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I said the exact same thing in a post below. I'm surprised that hardly anyone caught on to that. I don't care if the person was on vacation for a week. Crap and urine on the floor in the house for longer than it takes to notice it is disgusting.

Hi Stacey. I didn't read every reply you got but here is what I would do. Report it to animal control and leave it to the animal control to judge if the animals receive adequate care. Don't worry about the rest. Just report them to animal rescue as fast as you can. You're doing the right thing and tell them you don't want your name to be used.

And please give me an update. You can send me a personal message.

Have a nice day! :)