Reporting animal abuse/neglect - help please? DUW

[SecurityStacey]

You are missing the point completely. You should not just contact the police or the DEC just because you spot dirty cages, or even a dirty house and you want them to be checked out... ESPECIALLY when reptiles are involved.

I understand there are mamals involved to, but since this is a ball python forum, I will talk about the reptiles.

In a lot of places there are no clear cut rules about keeping reptiles. If the investigating officer determins based on his own opinion that the person has too many animals, or that they aren't being kept right, there are a lot of BAD things they can do... including attempting to take the animals away from their keepers!!!!

The way I see it you have 3 options:

1.) mind your own business and do nothing
2.) offer to help get things cleaned up and set up to what you see as correct.
3.) tell them that they need to fix things or you are going to report it... then give them a reasonable amount of time to fix things.

If you tell them to fix things, and they don't... then you can consider calling the authorities.

Yea, it is a ball python forum - but as you can see this is in the off topic section.

Also, as I pointed out - one of my major concerns was the state of his house where his kids live and there is not one reptile located at his house.

As for there being several ways and differing opinions on how to house reptiles - is there one reptile owner here that will argue that you don't need to clean poop out of their tanks? How often does a snake poop that they aren't cleaning it out? How often do they shed - that ball python had old poop and 2 different sheds in its tank. Will people argue that snakes don't need access to clean water?

I have repeatedly said that I would talk to them. As for correcting them - the reptiles and their husbandry is a small part. At his house, full of feces and urine, do you think he thinks that is normal prodcedure for having pets? And it goes beyond housing - these dogs, cats and pot belly pigs - how much time is he spending with them? I work at two local animal shelters that just have dogs and cats, so I'm not completely unaware of what kind of damage that is done to animals that are not played with, are not petted or have time spent with them. When you do this they are just property - just something to collect. The dogs and cats don't even have names and these are supposed to be his pets.

I'm not saying these people don't care about their animals, but that isn't enough. If I have a dog and I don't feed him because I can't afford it even though I care for it or I don't have time the result is the same as it would be if I didn't feed him because I just didn't care. I only have 3 pets - two mice and a snake - I would love to have more pets but I acknowledge that I don't have time for more between my job, the (other) shelters I volunteer at and my little brothers, and that I couldn't give them the time that they need, so I don't pick up more animals. People need to be able to recognize that.

[SamuraiZr0]

that just sucks!! no animal should be kept in an unclean unhealthy environment...

[Mike Cavanaugh]

What more could she have done to avoid you labeling that as a knee jerk reaction?

HMMM..

Lets see. She could have on the spot said something, or offered some of her "volunteer" time to help them keep up with things. She did not have to be confontational. She could have simply said, "wow, you guys have a lot of animals, and these tanks are a mess! I will be happy to help you catch back up!"

But no, her knee jerk reaction was to take the following steps:

1.) Take pictures of their animals WITHOUT permission.

2.) Immediately post the pictures she took WITHOUT permission on a public web site... once again WITHOUT permission.

3.) Then in the post with the pictures WITHOUT permission, she gives a very detailed description of how horrible they were doing things... and even goes so far as to question their parenting!!!

4.) Last, she even draws conclusions that ALL of their sites must be this bad, that they don't have the money to provide things properly, and that they don't have the manpower to correct the problems.

Yeah, I would say that her actions are a pretty good example of a "knee jerk reaction."

[littleindiangirl]

Yeah, I would say that her actions are a pretty good example of a "knee jerk reaction."

Not everyone has the clarity, high tolerance and wisdom you do Mike. She clearly didn't want to push the issue just meeting them. That IS confrontation, even though you dont see it that way... She would rather gather her thoughts and decide what to do after seeking advice. (amazing...)

I dont think it was deserving to mock her and her questions, once again you were NOT there. I think your posts just need to simmer down a little. It was a question on what to do, and she has clearly taken the advice to ask to help them. (that was in your little list there btw)

I dont know the full extent of what rights or laws are in place for taking pictures and posting them. I don't really care either but you just decided that this was somehow a knee jerk reaction. How is taking pictures a knee jerk reaction when you USE the pictures to seek further advice in to whether or not it IS abuse??? Sounds like she was using them to AVOID a knee jerk reaction.


It's my opinion that formulating an opinion or conclusion is not a knee jerk reaction, it is just an opinion and open to change.

Why can't you just see this thread for what it was? She wants help and advice, she wants to help them, and that's all so far she has done.

She has NOT called anyone to report them, so again, where are the knee jerk reactions you see that validate mocking her and belittling her efforts?

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Connie,

Did I date you or something in a previous life?

LOL, you follow me around and argue with anything I EVER say or contribute. you sure do sound and act like a nagging X girlfriend would sound and act... however I do not recall the "good times"

She asked for an opinion, and I am giving her an opinion. Hopefully she has taken a minute to actually think about the things I am saying.

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As far as the pictures.... Sit back, relax, and seriously consider this hypothetical situation. I know it is long winded, but if you TRY you should understand the point.

You just returned from a two day trip to Daytona where you picked up two new snakes. Your good friend (Julie) comes by unexpectingly to drop off something. She has a girlfriend (stacey) with her that you don't know. You invite them in. Stacey notices one of your snakes and asks you about it because she thinks snakes are beautiful and very interesting. Stacey used to own a garter snake as a child and thinks she knows a lot about snakes. You start showing some more of your collection because she is obviously interested.

Stacey is secretly horrified. She can not believe you keep so many snakes. She thinks it is cruel that you keep them in tubs in a rack system. as you pull a few out of the tubs, she notices that a few of the tubs are soaked with urin. she sees huge logs of fecies in a few too. Some of the water bowls were empty because they had been tipped over. (Remember you just came in from out of town, and were about to go through the tubs when they came unexpectantly). Stacey thinks the smell is horrible. She can't believe you can't even afford substrate, and are using newspaper. And she sees that you just got two more snakes!!! She secretly HATES you at this point.

You excuse yourself for a second to use the restroom... while you are gone Stacey secretly takes pictures of YOUR animals, and YOUR racks... She even cracks open the poop and pee filled tubs and snaps pictures of the poor snakes. You come back from the bathroom and she just smiles and pretends that she is perfectly comfortable and nothing is wrong.

As soon as stacey gets home she downloads the pictures of YOUR stuff that she took without your permission, and posts the pictures on a PUBLIC K-9 web site that she frequents... When she posts the pictures, she openly discusses how discusting it was, and how cruel you were. She rambles on about how you obviously can't take care of all those snakes, and they are living in filth. She explains how your two young children were in the same room as the snakes, walking right past the urin soaked tubs. She suggests that you can't afford to take care of them, and that you don't have the manpower to keep up. And that you just got two more snakes when you obviously can not even take care of the ones you have already!

She tells her K-9 buddies that she is considering calling the authorities to have you checked out. Her K-9 friends agree that as long as you are doing everything right, you shouldn't have a problem when the animal Po-Po pays you a visit. So she calls to have you investigated.


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After reading this, do you think "so what! send the animal police to my house! I take care of my snakes by the book! my husbandry is by the book!!!"

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Wake up and smell the coffee.

Hopefully you have already considered this, but most towns / cities have BS local rules that you don't know about... The kind that says you can only keep so many pets in a home.... You know that you are doing everything by the book care wise, but the officer that visits you likely doesn't... however he is familiar with the rule that limits you to X number of snakes. Bye-bye snake collection.

MOST of us have way more snakes then those rules would allow. Most animal police are NOT familiar with the benefits of keeping Ball Pythons in tubs. MOST ANIMAL POLICE WOULD ASSUME VERY BAD THINGS THE MOMENT THEY HEAR YOU HAVE 30+ SNAKES!!!

[rabernet]

Mike, you've made your point several times. It's fine to be passionate about your point of view, it is not fine, however, to call names and insult others that disagree with you.

There are times that you can be articulate and kind at the same time, and then there are others, like this - that you tend to appear to lose yourself in your passion and it rages to the point that your message is lost in your anger.

You are welcome to continue to post in this thread, however, I caution you to take it down several notches and cease with the insults being slung at other members. Thanks in advance for your cooperation and understanding.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Mike, you've made your point several times.

LOL! well at least someone got my point!!!!

My work is done....

[Ponthieux]

LOL! well at least someone got my point!!!!

My work is done....

why do you think it is funny to be rude and abrasive? you must have a really tall computer desk to be able to reach your keyboard from atop your high horse. if your last 10 or so posts are what you call "your work", i think you should look for another job.

[Ginevive]

If they have kids, and the place is that bad.. I would just call child-protective-services.

[Inknsteel]

I can see Mike's point, but I don't think that's the case in this situation. I'm surprised that nobody has brought it up to this point, but if there was a bp in a tank with dried feces and TWO full sheds, it's probably safe to assume that the tank hadn't been cleaned in a month. Unless you have bps that shed twice while you're gone for a weekend...

As for the animals, I would probably offer to help clean some tanks for them, and to help with the husbandry. As for the children, if they're living conditions are as bad as it sounds from your description, I would be on the phone to child protective services and have someone drop in to check on them.