Questions to Digest

Wheatley is doing absolutely great now! He's getting big quickly, had a successful shed, eats very well.

I have him on a current routine of every 5 days he gets a large mouse. He always has fresh water.

about a day after eating, once a day for three days he will pass urates, and the third day usually follows a poop. His urates are a healthy white, and his poop a healthy brown. This was routine, basically.

He refuses to use his tank as a bathroom. I had to work a lot one day and he made a small mess in his cage. He did not want anything to do with me for all of the next day, even after I cleaned his tank. He'd slink back to his strike position as if I startled him and smack me with his body. He did this only for a day, until after he passed another, this time out of his tank.

He and I are still getting used to each other. I'm beginning to be able to read him rather well now, although he catches me by surprise sometimes.

So today, was his usual day to poop. I wait for him to do this before feeding him, so typically this happens the day before he feeds. I had a 16 hour shift, and when I got home finally, he was in one of his hides. He came out a bit to see who was out there, but after figuring out it was me, he pulled back into his hide faster than a turtle does its shell.

I started checking his tank, looking for fecal matter, and couldn't find any. In the meantime, Wheatley is wound up, taking a semi-aggressive stance, which is abnormal for him. He's normally very calm. Hardly ever freaks out unless I manage to startle him, and that usually doesn't take long for him to recover from. He's usually a sweety. So I figure he REALLY needs to go. I pick him up gently, being careful not to startle him, and put him on a paper towel. After he calmed down, he pooped, I cleaned him up, and is currently cruising around in hunting mode.

Is it normal for a Ball Python to refuse to relieve him/herself in their tank? Not that I'm complaining, but I feel I might be spoiling him a bit. I'm a bit worried that he will retain it for too long and force himself into constipation.
Additionally, I want to know when to start spacing his food out from 5 days to 7 days.

if he is going into food mode right after a poop on the fifth day, I see no issue with feeding him. However, I don't know if this is just a routine he's used to which means I could still be overfeeding him, or if he's actually hungry.

When it comes to spoiling, I feel like I might be the worst. So I don't think that's the problem. If she's going while you hold her, maybe it's a temperature thing...? I'm not sure. I've not had this problem with mine. Sometimes mine will go in the water dish/pond. Is the poop normal?

I'd imagine that pooping outside the enclosure is more a direct result of the handling to take him out of the enclosure than anything else.

Snakes aren't going to hold it so long they become uncomfortable.

Your ball python will poop when it wants to poop. If it's pooping only when you handle/taking him out of his tank, that's a sign to stop handling. One of my snakes poops, on average, once a month and still eats consistently. A large mouse is probably too small for him as well. Ball pythons can eat live hopper mice straight out of the egg on average and mice aren't that nutritious compared to rats. They're sort of like candy for a ball python. Your ball python is, if I recall, way past being a hatchling and could probably handle eating rat pups or weans at this point.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Is it normal for a Ball Python to refuse to relieve him/herself in their tank? Not that I'm complaining, but I feel I might be spoiling him a bit. I'm a bit worried that he will retain it for too long and force himself into constipation.
Additionally, I want to know when to start spacing his food out from 5 days to 7 days.

if he is going into food mode right after a poop on the fifth day, I see no issue with feeding him. However, I don't know if this is just a routine he's used to which means I could still be overfeeding him, or if he's actually hungry.

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To answer your question, no - not normal. It is normal, though, for new keepers to think they should relieve themselves on a schedule. ;) Animals will relieve themselves in stressful situations. All of the signs you're pointing out could be his way of saying "that's too much for me right now".

If I were you, I'd basically ignore his bathroom habits and how they relate to his feeding schedule. BP metabolism is completely different than our own and if you try to anthropomorphize him, you'll end up getting frustrated. In short, he'll go when he needs to.

Feed him an appropriately sized meal every 4-5 days until he's big enough for small rats. Then you can back down to every 7 days. When he's being fed the right amount of food at the right time, he'll go the right amount. Simple as that. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

To answer your question, no - not normal. It is normal, though, for new keepers to think they should relieve themselves on a schedule. ;) Animals will relieve themselves in stressful situations. All of the signs you're pointing out could be his way of saying "that's too much for me right now".

If I were you, I'd basically ignore his bathroom habits and how they relate to his feeding schedule. BP metabolism is completely different than our own and if you try to anthropomorphize him, you'll end up getting frustrated. In short, he'll go when he needs to.

Feed him an appropriately sized meal every 4-5 days until he's big enough for small rats. Then you can back down to every 7 days. When he's being fed the right amount of food at the right time, he'll go the right amount. Simple as that. :gj:

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i was watching a YT called 1softkiss and some of the stuff she was saying made sense. She takes her snakes outside to go to the bathroom and she seems to read them very well. One of the things she does is wait until they poop to feed them, because getting backed up will kill them.

hes not quite big enough for the "small" rats they have at PetsMart. The large mice were Ok'd by the vet I took him to. Said for his weight it's perfect for now. (He's in good health) I'm nervous though about the rats because they smell different. If he doesn't take well to rats, is ok to feed mice? Or is it one of those things I might have to consider assist feeding rats at a certain stage?

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Your ball python will poop when it wants to poop. If it's pooping only when you handle/taking him out of his tank, that's a sign to stop handling. One of my snakes poops, on average, once a month and still eats consistently. A large mouse is probably too small for him as well. Ball pythons can eat live hopper mice straight out of the egg on average and mice aren't that nutritious compared to rats. They're sort of like candy for a ball python. Your ball python is, if I recall, way past being a hatchling and could probably handle eating rat pups or weans at this point.

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He is not showing any signs of stress. As a matter of fact, after he poops he wants to explore for a bit and after he's done doing that he comes up to me, finds a warm spot and falls asleep. He does not show any signs of fear, and there are ample places for him to hide if he was searching for a place to hide.

I appreciate that you are looking out for my snake for me :) but I promise I spend a lot of quality time with my pet and it's actually quite fine. He is doing very VERY well, is in good health, and is not stressed at all. ;)

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

He is not showing any signs of stress. As a matter of fact, after he poops he wants to explore for a bit and after he's done doing that he comes up to me, finds a warm spot and falls asleep. He does not show any signs of fear, and there are ample places for him to hide if he was searching for a place to hide.

I appreciate that you are looking out for my snake for me :) but I promise I spend a lot of quality time with my pet and it's actually quite fine. He is doing very VERY well, is in good health, and is not stressed at all. ;)

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What you are describing in the first post is a sign of stress. Please listen to the people who are telling you so.

First a lot of antropomorphism here in this thread.

BP do not go on schedule they go when they need too, it can be once a week, or once a month or every other month it varies on the individual and has no incidence on whether the animal can eat or not.

BP are VERY efficient whatever is not used as fuel or for growth is eliminated it's that simple, there is no avoiding doing it in it's tank just like there is no "not wanting anything to do with you".

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

What you are describing in the first post is a sign of stress. Please listen to the people who are telling you so.

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So, because he doesn't show any other sign of stress, the fact he is pooping in one certain location at one certain time and refuses to mess his tank is a sign of stress?

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Originally Posted by Deborah

First a lot of antropomorphism here in this thread.

BP do not go on schedule they go when they need too, it can be once a week, or once a month or every other month it varies on the individual and has no incidence on whether the animal can eat or not.

BP are VERY efficient whatever is not used as fuel or for growth is eliminated it's that simple, there is no avoiding doing it in it's tank just like there is no "not wanting anything to do with you".

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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Yea, no. Sorry, but you and seven-thirty are incorrect. He is not stressed out. ;) he eats just fine and he is in good health per the vet. I'll trust his word as a professional over someone spouting what they THINK is correct. :3 Wheatley is perfectly fine, and to top it off you're wrong about snakes not having emotions. Fear and stress are both emotions. ;)

You guys should really check out 1softkiss. But I bet you won't, because neither of you like being wrong.

I can't say a I blame you. What you do isn't wrong in of itself, but my little Wheatley is perfectly healthy, is a good weight, eats just fine, and does not show signs of stress. And this is all PER THE VET! :P

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

To answer your question, no - not normal. It is normal, though, for new keepers to think they should relieve themselves on a schedule. ;) Animals will relieve themselves in stressful situations. All of the signs you're pointing out could be his way of saying "that's too much for me right now".

If I were you, I'd basically ignore his bathroom habits and how they relate to his feeding schedule. BP metabolism is completely different than our own and if you try to anthropomorphize him, you'll end up getting frustrated. In short, he'll go when he needs to.

Feed him an appropriately sized meal every 4-5 days until he's big enough for small rats. Then you can back down to every 7 days. When he's being fed the right amount of food at the right time, he'll go the right amount. Simple as that. :gj:

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What weight would be "big enough" for the "small" rats from petsmart? I'd order online but I don't know how they'd keep it frozen. I've seen some of the shipping facilities (I've worked at several) and the refrigerated/freezer trailers tend to fail quite frequently...? Unless they package them differently?

Do you have a favorite seller for feeder rodents?

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

So, because he doesn't show any other sign of stress, the fact he is pooping in one certain location at one certain time and refuses to mess his tank is a sign of stress?

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Based on the other things you detailed in your first post, quite possibly, yes.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Yea, no. Sorry, but you and seven-thirty are incorrect. He is not stressed out. ;) he eats just fine and he is in good health per the vet. I'll trust his word as a professional over someone spouting what they THINK is correct. :3 Wheatley is perfectly fine, and to top it off you're wrong about snakes not having emotions. Fear and stress are both emotions. ;)

You guys should really check out 1softkiss. But I bet you won't, because neither of you like being wrong.

I can't say a I blame you. What you do isn't wrong in of itself, but my little Wheatley is perfectly healthy, is a good weight, eats just fine, and does not show signs of stress. And this is all PER THE VET! :P

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No idea what that has to do with anything oh well, and yeah I know soft kiss she has been around a long time on small forums no one cares about with people that have limited knowledge, if that is your reference and the example you want to follow well ok, the one eyed leading the blind .

BTW she is no professional breeder trust me.

Wonder why you keep asking questions here since people who are knowledgeable and experienced apparently know nothing (just like with your so called "Spider" people were so wrong because your breeder friend said it was a spider right?)

Must be nice to have 1 snakes for 1 month and know it all, if you can't handle the answers or are not willing to follow advice why bother asking.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No idea what that has to do with anything oh well, and yeah I know soft kiss she has been around a long time on small forums no one cares about with people that have limited knowledge, if that is your reference and the example you want to follow well ok, the one eyed leading the blind .

BTW she is no professional breeder trust me.

Wonder why you keep asking question here since people who are knowledgeable and experienced apparently know nothing (just like with your so called "Spider" people were so wrong because your breeder friend said it was a spider right?)

Must be nice to have 1 snakes for 1 month and know it all, if you can handle the answers or are not willing to ask my advice don't bother asking.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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Maybe this might come as a surprise to you, but i wasn't asking for your advice. I was asking people who actually take the time to get to know their pets as pets.

i honestly don't care much for you. Even if you had good information, you are rude, derogatory, and you do your best to bully people who actually know better about their pets and actually take the time to bond with them off the site. Anyone else is wrong but you. Oh trust me, you and your fellow "read something and preach it like you know everything" are actually quite infamous off site. Problem is this is the larger forum, because the majority of BP owners type in "ball python" and ball python is the name of this forum, which has been around longer than most.

so do me and yourself a favor and just stop talking to me? You aren't very professional as a mod, and to be honest, it speaks for the site itself when someone as rude, self-worshiping and "know-it-all" like yourself is in charge of anything.

Oh, but it's a crime to have a different opinion, not agree with you. So instead of simply letting things go, you continue to attack on any other question being asked.

youve preached that emotions do not exist in snakes, because some supposed research was done saying that snakes lack the part of the brain we use for emotions? And yet... somehow they still experience stress. Which is an emotion. Same as terror. Same as enjoyment of a certain food item.

its pathetic how misinformed you actually are on certain things, and you treat other people like absolute crap for having a different opinion than your "all-knowing" one.

seriously.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

What weight would be "big enough" for the "small" rats from petsmart? I'd order online but I don't know how they'd keep it frozen. I've seen some of the shipping facilities (I've worked at several) and the refrigerated/freezer trailers tend to fail quite frequently...? Unless they package them differently?

Do you have a favorite seller for feeder rodents?

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The online sellers of frozen rodents ship directly from their freezer facilities, and package the rodents with dry ice. So unless it's super hot in your area, or your box gets lost for several days, keeping it frozen shouldn't be an issue. I like Big Cheese personally.

Do you have a scale? Feeding 10%-15% of his body weight is a good, until he's big enough for small rats (when he's around 750 grams; small rats usually average about 75 grams). Then you just stick with small rats for his entire life.

If he's not big enough for the rats you can get, but still too big for a mouse, you can feed him 2-3 mice. It's more expensive but just as acceptable. Just offer another one once he gets the first one down the hatch.

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Originally Posted by Willowy

The online sellers of frozen rodents ship directly from their freezer facilities, and package the rodents with dry ice. So unless it's super hot in your area, or your box gets lost for several days, keeping it frozen shouldn't be an issue. I like Big Cheese personally.

Do you have a scale? Feeding 10%-15% of his body weight is a good, until he's big enough for small rats (when he's around 750 grams; small rats usually average about 75 grams). Then you just stick with small rats for his entire life.

If he's not big enough for the rats you can get, but still too big for a mouse, you can feed him 2-3 mice. It's more expensive but just as acceptable. Just offer another one once he gets the first one down the hatch.

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Appreciate the help! Thank you. :)


so happy to see people actually read whats being asked and answer the question er the question instead of attacking with misinformation over a small detail that is only a supportive detail to a question.

Wow. Mods abusing their powers because someone doesn't agree with them and has supportive evidence behind them?

i shouldn't even be surprised. 😂

To be honest, there is a difference between being blunt and being rude. Deborah is blunt.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Appreciate the help! Thank you. :)


so happy to see people actually read whats being asked and answer the question er the question instead of attacking with misinformation over a small detail that is only a supportive detail to a question.

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Right

You asked

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Is it normal for a Ball Python to refuse to relieve him/herself in their tank?

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I answered

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Originally Posted by Deborah

First a lot of antropomorphism here in this thread.

BP do not go on schedule they go when they need too, it can be once a week, or once a month or every other month it varies on the individual and has no incidence on whether the animal can eat or not.

BP are VERY efficient whatever is not used as fuel or for growth is eliminated it's that simple, there is no avoiding doing it in it's tank just like there is no "not wanting anything to do with you".

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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But that does not help, it is you giving human sentiment to your animal that leads you to believe that there is an issue the he refuses or avoid to go in his tank, like he is making a decision.

TO which I point that there is no schedule they go when they NEED to do, 1 week 1 month, 12 weeks it varies.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Wow. Mods abusing their powers because someone doesn't agree with them and has supportive evidence behind them?

i shouldn't even be surprised. ��

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I am not posting in this thread as a MOD but as a member which I have been for almost 10 years, when I post as a mod you will know.

As a member I provide advice and answer question, can't help if you don't like the answers.

So since I abuse my powers which is a pretty serious accusation (might want to read the TOS), did you receive an infraction or were you temporally banned because that would be abuse of power from a mod, me posting in your thread, posting my opinion, disagreeing with you, or even giving you a rep is not abuse of power it's what any and all member can do. BTW I am done

Can lead the horse to the water but.....

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Originally Posted by Fraido

To be honest, there is a difference between being blunt and being rude. Deborah is blunt.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

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There is a rather fine line. She was blunt to a point, however she's crested upon being rude after attacking someone else who has decent information and isn't even on site to defend herself just because she has opinions she has video proof of that doesn't match Deborah's.

instead of being open to the possibility that some of the things she says actually COULD be wrong, she instead abuses her mod powers, docks whatever the heck this reputation thing is from me, sends a message, and continues to respond to me despite my attempts to literally ignore her. Because she is a mod I'm unable to block her. Which gets on my nerves that someone like THAT is a mod. Not everyone gets along with a know-it-all. Especially another KNOW-it-all.

though, I'm very aware of my faults and I actually own up to them. There is a reason I don't attempt to be a moderator of anything because I understand I can actually be a bit too intense for people.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

One of the things she does is wait until they poop to feed them, because getting backed up will kill them.

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She can do as she pleases, but that's not a thing for ball pythons. If it were, you'd better believe that those of us that keep and breed them would have that in place as a best practice and educate new keepers of it.

I just went through every defication and every feeding for the 4 animals I've had the longest - that's 3.5 years worth of rats and poop while growing from hatchlings to adults. I could do the same for every animal in my collection, but I won't. ;) Here's a summary:

	Meals Between Poops (avg)	Meals Between Poops (median)	Meals Between Poops (max)	Meals Between Poops (min)
BP #1	3.64	3	12	1
BP #2	3.49	3	13	1
BP #3	2.71	2	6	1
BP #4	2.58	2	8	1

If I waited until they pooped to feed them, at a MINIMUM, they'd be getting about 1/3 as many meals assuming they still pooped on the same schedule. In reality, it'd be far less food than that because they wouldn't be deficating as often because they'd be eating less. I'm not about to care for my collection that way.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

hes not quite big enough for the "small" rats they have at PetsMart. The large mice were Ok'd by the vet I took him to. Said for his weight it's perfect for now. (He's in good health) I'm nervous though about the rats because they smell different. If he doesn't take well to rats, is ok to feed mice? Or is it one of those things I might have to consider assist feeding rats at a certain stage?

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It's fine to feed mice long term - you're just going to be feeding a lot of them. There's no reason to assist feed an animal that's eating well on its own.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I am not posting in this thread as a MOD but as a member which I have been for almost 10 years, when I post as a mod you will know.

As a member I provide advice and answer question, can't help if you don't like the answers.

So since I abuse my powers which is a pretty serious accusation (might want to read the TOS), did you receive an infraction or were you temporally banned because that would be abuse of power from a mod, me posting in your thread, posting my opinion, disagreeing with you, or even giving you a rep is not abuse of power it's what any and all member can do.

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*points at my rep bar* That wasn't you?

I thought that was a mod thing. If it isn't then I am wrong about that and I will apologize for that misunderstanding.

however, my firmness that I disagree with you on snakes not having emotions. They don't experience happiness, or love. But they DO have the capacity for emotions like stress and fear, dislike and like. Snakes can be smarter than they get credit for. They aren't pigs, chimps, or dolphins. But they are certainly more advanced than a mouse is.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

There is a rather fine line. She was blunt to a point, however she's crested upon being rude after attacking someone else who has decent information and isn't even on site to defend herself just because she has opinions she has video proof of that doesn't match Deborah's.

instead of being open to the possibility that some of the things she says actually COULD be wrong, she instead abuses her mod powers, docks whatever the heck this reputation thing is from me, sends a message, and continues to respond to me despite my attempts to literally ignore her. Because she is a mod I'm unable to block her. Which gets on my nerves that someone like THAT is a mod. Not everyone gets along with a know-it-all. Especially another KNOW-it-all.

though, I'm very aware of my faults and I actually own up to them. There is a reason I don't attempt to be a moderator of anything because I understand I can actually be a bit too intense for people.

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I didn't mean to thank this post. There should really be a way to unthank things, not sure why you can't.

But back on point, it is a fine line, and she did not cross it. She has opinions, and they are based on fact.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

...But they are certainly more advanced than a mouse is...

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I disagree with this so much. I really believe this is incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

She can do as she pleases, but that's not a thing for ball pythons. If it were, you'd better believe that those of us that keep and breed them would have that in place as a best practice and educate new keepers of it.

I just went through every defication and every feeding for the 4 animals I've had the longest - that's 3.5 years worth of rats and poop while growing from hatchlings to adults. I could do the same for every animal in my collection, but I won't. ;) Here's a summary:

	Meals Between Poops (avg)	Meals Between Poops (median)	Meals Between Poops (max)	Meals Between Poops (min)
BP #1	3.64	3	12	1
BP #2	3.49	3	13	1
BP #3	2.71	2	6	1
BP #4	2.58	2	8	1

If I waited until they pooped to feed them, at a MINIMUM, they'd be getting about 1/3 as many meals assuming they still pooped on the same schedule. In reality, it'd be far less food than that because they wouldn't be deficating as often because they'd be eating less. I'm not about to care for my collection that way.

It's fine to feed mice long term - you're just going to be feeding a lot of them. There's no reason to assist feed an animal that's eating well on its own.

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Hm... That makes sense... could it simply be that just because he's growing that he's popping out poops more often? Or perhaps he knows it's feeding day, so he makes room? Is that something they can do?

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Originally Posted by Fraido

I didn't mean to thank this post. There should really be a way to unthank things, not sure why you can't.

But back on point, it is a fine line, and she did not cross it. She has opinions, and they are based on fact.

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You can, actually. It's the same location as the thank button is if you're using the site. I don't know about any apps though.

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Originally Posted by Fraido

I disagree with this so much. I really believe this is incorrect.

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Mice don't have any capacity of intelligence other than running around, pooping, eating, and reproducing.

they are stupid animals that don't seem to recognize danger unless they are wild. It's as if they don't have any proper instincts at birth.

I may be mixing information about mice and hamsters though...

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

You can, actually. It's the same location as the thank button is if you're using the site. I don't know about any apps though.

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Yeah, it doesn't work on Tapatalk.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

*points at my rep bar* That wasn't you?

I thought that was a mod thing. If it isn't then I am wrong about that and I will apologize for that misunderstanding.

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Anyone has the ability to give reputation - either positive or negative. There's a +R- button at the bottom of every post for this purpose. Vindictive use of this system is not permitted, and is stated as much in the site's TOS.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Mice don't have any capacity of intelligence other than running around, pooping, eating, and reproducing.

they are stupid animals that don't seem to recognize danger unless they are wild. It's as if they don't have any proper instincts at birth.

I may be mixing information about mice and hamsters though...

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"...They are highly social, playful, curious, affectionate, capable of learning and can be taught tricks. You can teach them to recognize their name and sit up for food..." I have owned pet mice in the past and find this to be very accurate.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

But they DO have the capacity for emotions like stress and fear, dislike and like. Snakes can be smarter than they get credit for. They aren't pigs, chimps, or dolphins. But they are certainly more advanced than a mouse is.

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More advanced than a mouse? Hardly.

I'd like to see your sources for that statement.

There has been countless studies on mice intelligence. They are very capable problem solvers and are capable of learning tasks. Other closely related species have proven to be megacognitive (rats) and even use tools (Degus). As highly social creatures they have a full emotional spectrum as well.

Snakes are no where even close.

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Originally Posted by Fraido

Yeah, it doesn't work on Tapatalk.

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Thats a doofy feature... being able to like/thank something but not including a feature to remove it...:taz:

There seems to be some confusion here with regards to the snake being stressed. A snake can be stressed due to improper environment to the point that it will refuse to eat because it does not feel secure. It can also be stressed temporarily while you are handling it, but will calm back down when returned to its enclosure. I seriously doubt your snake just can't wait to see you when you walk in the room and is so eager to be held by you. My BPs tolerate me. I'm pretty sure they're stressed out when I take them out - I can see their breathing increase and they try to slither away from me. They're not in total fear, or they'd probably stay balled up, but they want to find a place to hide. Your snake sounds healthy - it eats well, puts on weight and hides most of the day. But, when you take it out, it probably does get stressed, and may pass a bowel movement as a result.

I didn't realize PetSmart even sold feeders. If you want live, you're better off finding someone locally on Craigslist or a pet shop geared towards reptiles.


And as far as emotion goes:
noun 1. an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear, hate, or the like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness.
2.any of the feelings of joy, sorrow, fear, hate, love, etc.
3. any strong agitation of the feelings actuated by experiencing love, hate, fear, etc., and usually accompanied by certain physiological changes, as increased heartbeat or respiration, and often overt manifestation, as crying or shaking.

I suppose by this definition most animals have some level of emotion since they experience fear; it's a fundamental response for survival. Snakes do not love or hate. They do not feel sorrow or joy. These emotions would serve no purpose for a solitary animal like a ball python.

And lastly, chill out. People are just trying to help. If you disagree, then just disregard. If you're so reliant on what your vet says, why would you even ask the question here since you already know the answer and anything contradictory is wrong. Perhaps you'll realize one day that veterinarians and doctors don't always know what they're talking about. They have an extensive education, but use that to make an educated guess. They're not always right.

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Originally Posted by voodoolamb

More advanced than a mouse? Hardly.

I'd like to see your sources for that statement.

There has been countless studies on mice intelligence. They are very capable problem solvers and are capable of learning tasks. Other closely related species have proven to be megacognitive (rats) and even use tools (Degus). As highly social creatures they have a full emotional spectrum as well.

Snakes are no where even close.

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I might be talking out my butt on this one then... I'm not sure to be honest where I got that from. Maybe my stepmom who is absolutely terrified of rodents... I knew Rats were smart.

well, I meant snakes aren't stupid. They're well developed for what they are meant for, but since they aren't domesticated...

Time for more reading.... Bugs can't be the only animal more stupid than a snake...:weirdface

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Yea, no. Sorry, but you and seven-thirty are incorrect. He is not stressed out. ;) he eats just fine and he is in good health per the vet. I'll trust his word as a professional over someone spouting what they THINK is correct. :3 Wheatley is perfectly fine, and to top it off you're wrong about snakes not having emotions. Fear and stress are both emotions. ;)

You guys should really check out 1softkiss. But I bet you won't, because neither of you like being wrong.

I can't say a I blame you. What you do isn't wrong in of itself, but my little Wheatley is perfectly healthy, is a good weight, eats just fine, and does not show signs of stress. And this is all PER THE VET! :P

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Oh boy. If you're willing to ignore advice, like in the numerous threads you've started, why do you keep asking them? You only respond to things you want to hear. For the record, fear and stress are responses to negative stimuli.


I do watch 1softkiss and enjoy her videos. I don't agree with some of the things she says but I do believe that a lot of the things she does with her snakes is a result of conditioning, not because a snake inherently doesn't want to mess up its enclosure. Not to mention a lot of the snakes that she takes outside are much older than yours and more accustomed to being handled, especially her ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by BPGator

There seems to be some confusion here with regards to the snake being stressed. A snake can be stressed due to improper environment to the point that it will refuse to eat because it does not feel secure. It can also be stressed temporarily while you are handling it, but will calm back down when returned to its enclosure. I seriously doubt your snake just can't wait to see you when you walk in the room and is so eager to be held by you. My BPs tolerate me. I'm pretty sure they're stressed out when I take them out - I can see their breathing increase and they try to slither away from me. They're not in total fear, or they'd probably stay balled up, but they want to find a place to hide. Your snake sounds healthy - it eats well, puts on weight and hides most of the day. But, when you take it out, it probably does get stressed, and may pass a bowel movement as a result.

I didn't realize PetSmart even sold feeders. If you want live, you're better off finding someone locally on Craigslist or a pet shop geared towards reptiles.


And as far as emotion goes:
noun 1. an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear, hate, or the like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness.
2.any of the feelings of joy, sorrow, fear, hate, love, etc.
3. any strong agitation of the feelings actuated by experiencing love, hate, fear, etc., and usually accompanied by certain physiological changes, as increased heartbeat or respiration, and often overt manifestation, as crying or shaking.

I suppose by this definition most animals have some level of emotion since they experience fear; it's a fundamental response for survival. Snakes do not love or hate. They do not feel sorrow or joy. These emotions would serve no purpose for a solitary animal like a ball python.

And lastly, chill out. People are just trying to help. If you disagree, then just disregard. If you're so reliant on what your vet says, why would you even ask the question here since you already know the answer and anything contradictory is wrong. Perhaps you'll realize one day that veterinarians and doctors don't always know what they're talking about. They have an extensive education, but use that to make an educated guess. They're not always right.

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because the question I was asking didn't get answered until much later, and some users were offering unrelated answers, in my opinion.

i do NOT want live. O_O my ex had a BP when he was a kid he fed live and it traumatized the snake so much apparently it died. How true this is, I'm not sure, but it has me nervous enough to feed F/T.

also, 100% agree with you about the love/hate/sorrow/joy thing. I don't see BPs jumping up and such. Curious, perhaps. But certainly doesn't have preferences...

Temporary stress, huh? This makes a lot more sense to me as a possibility... hmm... I usually regard stress as a long term thing..

Omg.... "reptile dysfunction."

Ok I'm laughing... :8: That's actually funny.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Oh boy. If you're willing to ignore advice, like in the numerous threads you've started, why do you keep asking them? You only respond to things you want to hear. For the record, fear and stress are responses to negative stimuli.


I do watch 1softkiss and enjoy her videos. I don't agree with some of the things she says but I do believe that a lot of the things she does with her snakes is a result of conditioning, not because a snake inherently doesn't want to mess up its enclosure. Not to mention a lot of the snakes that she takes outside are much older than yours and more accustomed to being handled, especially her ball pythons.

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Come to think of it... aren't her featured snakes generally boas? Are they much different than ball pythons other than being a different species?

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Anyone has the ability to give reputation - either positive or negative. There's a +R- button at the bottom of every post for this purpose. Vindictive use of this system is not permitted, and is stated as much in the site's TOS.

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Ah. In that case, disregard my claim of rudeness. That was a misinformed assumption.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

I might be talking out my butt on this one then... I'm not sure to be honest where I got that from. Maybe my stepmom who is absolutely terrified of rodents... I knew Rats were smart.

well, I meant snakes aren't stupid. They're well developed for what they are meant for, but since they aren't domesticated...

Time for more reading.... Bugs can't be the only animal more stupid than a snake...:weirdface

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Yes. Definitely talking out the back side on that one.

Here is a recent ish study on the "Covariation of learning and “reasoning” abilities in mice"

Long story short they were found to be able to use various techniques for both deductive and inductive reasoning. Analogous to human cognition.

Snakes are primitive. They haven't changed much in the fossil record at all, their brains are under developed compared to mammals and birds. They very likely are physically incapable of higher reasoning skills. They literally just don't have those parts to their brain.

I mean think about it. Evolution took away their limbs. They aren't capable of manipulating their environment. Something that all 'intelligent' animals do. They choose efficency over intelligence on the evolutionary chain. It's worked for them. They are a very successful order!

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Come to think of it... aren't her featured snakes generally boas? Are they much different than ball pythons other than being a different species?

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Carpet pythons, boas, and colubrids. There's an immense difference between every snake species. Even within the same genus. A retic is immensely different from a ball python in terms of size as well as behavior. You cannot expect all species of snakes to be the same.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Come to think of it... aren't her featured snakes generally boas? Are they much different than ball pythons other than being a different species?

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I personally find them to be very different in behaviour. I find them to be a lot more explorative, "curious," and just a lot more fun to handle. They like to move around, whereas a ball python prefers to chill in one spot and hide.

To me a boa has more "personality" than a ball python. I don't own ball pythons for that reason, that and their tendency to go on food strikes.

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Originally Posted by Seven-Thirty

Carpet pythons, boas, and colubrids. There's an immense difference between every snake species. Even within the same genus. A retic is immensely different from a ball python in terms of size as well as behavior. You cannot expect all species of snakes to be the same.

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Gotcha. That clears up a bunch.

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Originally Posted by voodoolamb

Yes. Definitely talking out the back side on that one.

Here is a recent ish study on the "Covariation of learning and “reasoning” abilities in mice"

Long story short they were found to be able to use various techniques for both deductive and inductive reasoning. Analogous to human cognition.

Snakes are primitive. They haven't changed much in the fossil record at all, their brains are under developed compared to mammals and birds. They very likely are physically incapable of higher reasoning skills. They literally just don't have those parts to their brain.

I mean think about it. Evolution took away their limbs. They aren't capable of manipulating their environment. Something that all 'intelligent' animals do. They choose efficency over intelligence on the evolutionary chain. It's worked for them. They are a very successful order!

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Itty bitty dinos... hmm... Wonder why mammals and birds developed but snakes haven't...

lizards have, though? Bearded dragons seem to have the capacity to bond?

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Itty bitty dinos... hmm... Wonder why mammals and birds developed but snakes haven't...

lizards have, though? Bearded dragons seem to have the capacity to bond?

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Lizards and snakes are completely different just because they're both reptiles doesn't mean they developed they should act the same.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Temporary stress, huh? This makes a lot more sense to me as a possibility... hmm... I usually regard stress as a long term thing..

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Think of it as acute stress vs chronic stress

Chronic stress would be from an improper environment and poor diet. Acute stress would be from handling.

Everytime you pick up Wheatley he is getting mildly stressed. It's an instinctive reaction to being reached for and picked up. He thinks he is going to be eaten. With frequent handling they can be conditioned that being picked up doesn't mean they are going to be a snack. As they grow larger handling is less stressful because each foot they put on the closer to the top of the food chain they get and the less stuff is going to eat them.

I said up the thread that the frequent pooping outside the cage is probably related to the handling itself. It's very very common for snakes to evacuate their bowels as a defense mechanism.

To anthromorphising a bit here's what I imagine Wheatley is going through:

La la la I'm a cute snek.

*gets picked up*

Ahhh! Pls don't eat me!!! I don't taste good! Imma poop all over myself to make sure of it! - oh. Wait. You aren't gonna eat me. I remember this. Ok. Cool *snakes around a bit*

Oh. Actually. About that pooping thing... yeah. I got all cocked and loaded so I might as well go through with it.

*poops*

And back to being a cute snek. Snaking around. La la la.

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Originally Posted by KingWheatley

Hm... That makes sense... could it simply be that just because he's growing that he's popping out poops more often? Or perhaps he knows it's feeding day, so he makes room? Is that something they can do?

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I just went through the same exercise with only the first year that I had these animals, and the information didn't change significantly. They just don't poop between every meal. And, if you're thinking, "Hey, maybe he's not feeding appropriately sized meals," I'll let you in on a guilty confession - to this day I still weigh every single prey item before feeding it off. Trust me - they're appropriately sized. :D

For your other question about him "knowing" - I doubt it. We do know that their brain's aren't nearly as evolved as our own, and that kind of foresight would be beyond what they're likely capable of. I suppose anything's possible, but again - I doubt it.

Also, and I don't mean any ill-intentions by saying this, vet's shouldn't always be the end-all-be-all experts. I work with several every single day. The good ones will be the first to tell you when their education ends and their experience begins. Often times they'll defer to those with vast amounts of practical experience over relying solely on their studies.