Questions to Digest

[KingWheatley]

Oh boy. If you're willing to ignore advice, like in the numerous threads you've started, why do you keep asking them? You only respond to things you want to hear. For the record, fear and stress are responses to negative stimuli.


I do watch 1softkiss and enjoy her videos. I don't agree with some of the things she says but I do believe that a lot of the things she does with her snakes is a result of conditioning, not because a snake inherently doesn't want to mess up its enclosure. Not to mention a lot of the snakes that she takes outside are much older than yours and more accustomed to being handled, especially her ball pythons.

Come to think of it... aren't her featured snakes generally boas? Are they much different than ball pythons other than being a different species?

[KingWheatley]

Anyone has the ability to give reputation - either positive or negative. There's a +R- button at the bottom of every post for this purpose. Vindictive use of this system is not permitted, and is stated as much in the site's TOS.

Ah. In that case, disregard my claim of rudeness. That was a misinformed assumption.

[voodoolamb]

I might be talking out my butt on this one then... I'm not sure to be honest where I got that from. Maybe my stepmom who is absolutely terrified of rodents... I knew Rats were smart.

well, I meant snakes aren't stupid. They're well developed for what they are meant for, but since they aren't domesticated...

Time for more reading.... Bugs can't be the only animal more stupid than a snake...

Yes. Definitely talking out the back side on that one.

Here is a recent ish study on the "Covariation of learning and “reasoning” abilities in mice"

Long story short they were found to be able to use various techniques for both deductive and inductive reasoning. Analogous to human cognition.

Snakes are primitive. They haven't changed much in the fossil record at all, their brains are under developed compared to mammals and birds. They very likely are physically incapable of higher reasoning skills. They literally just don't have those parts to their brain.

I mean think about it. Evolution took away their limbs. They aren't capable of manipulating their environment. Something that all 'intelligent' animals do. They choose efficency over intelligence on the evolutionary chain. It's worked for them. They are a very successful order!

[Seven-Thirty]

Come to think of it... aren't her featured snakes generally boas? Are they much different than ball pythons other than being a different species?

Carpet pythons, boas, and colubrids. There's an immense difference between every snake species. Even within the same genus. A retic is immensely different from a ball python in terms of size as well as behavior. You cannot expect all species of snakes to be the same.

[Fraido]

Come to think of it... aren't her featured snakes generally boas? Are they much different than ball pythons other than being a different species?

I personally find them to be very different in behaviour. I find them to be a lot more explorative, "curious," and just a lot more fun to handle. They like to move around, whereas a ball python prefers to chill in one spot and hide.

To me a boa has more "personality" than a ball python. I don't own ball pythons for that reason, that and their tendency to go on food strikes.

[KingWheatley]

Carpet pythons, boas, and colubrids. There's an immense difference between every snake species. Even within the same genus. A retic is immensely different from a ball python in terms of size as well as behavior. You cannot expect all species of snakes to be the same.

Gotcha. That clears up a bunch.

[KingWheatley]

Yes. Definitely talking out the back side on that one.

Here is a recent ish study on the "Covariation of learning and “reasoning” abilities in mice"

Long story short they were found to be able to use various techniques for both deductive and inductive reasoning. Analogous to human cognition.

Snakes are primitive. They haven't changed much in the fossil record at all, their brains are under developed compared to mammals and birds. They very likely are physically incapable of higher reasoning skills. They literally just don't have those parts to their brain.

I mean think about it. Evolution took away their limbs. They aren't capable of manipulating their environment. Something that all 'intelligent' animals do. They choose efficency over intelligence on the evolutionary chain. It's worked for them. They are a very successful order!

Itty bitty dinos... hmm... Wonder why mammals and birds developed but snakes haven't...

lizards have, though? Bearded dragons seem to have the capacity to bond?

[Seven-Thirty]

Itty bitty dinos... hmm... Wonder why mammals and birds developed but snakes haven't...

lizards have, though? Bearded dragons seem to have the capacity to bond?

Lizards and snakes are completely different just because they're both reptiles doesn't mean they developed they should act the same.

[voodoolamb]

Temporary stress, huh? This makes a lot more sense to me as a possibility... hmm... I usually regard stress as a long term thing..

Think of it as acute stress vs chronic stress

Chronic stress would be from an improper environment and poor diet. Acute stress would be from handling.

Everytime you pick up Wheatley he is getting mildly stressed. It's an instinctive reaction to being reached for and picked up. He thinks he is going to be eaten. With frequent handling they can be conditioned that being picked up doesn't mean they are going to be a snack. As they grow larger handling is less stressful because each foot they put on the closer to the top of the food chain they get and the less stuff is going to eat them.

I said up the thread that the frequent pooping outside the cage is probably related to the handling itself. It's very very common for snakes to evacuate their bowels as a defense mechanism.

To anthromorphising a bit here's what I imagine Wheatley is going through:

La la la I'm a cute snek.

*gets picked up*

Ahhh! Pls don't eat me!!! I don't taste good! Imma poop all over myself to make sure of it! - oh. Wait. You aren't gonna eat me. I remember this. Ok. Cool *snakes around a bit*

Oh. Actually. About that pooping thing... yeah. I got all cocked and loaded so I might as well go through with it.

*poops*

And back to being a cute snek. Snaking around. La la la.

[Eric Alan]

Hm... That makes sense... could it simply be that just because he's growing that he's popping out poops more often? Or perhaps he knows it's feeding day, so he makes room? Is that something they can do?

I just went through the same exercise with only the first year that I had these animals, and the information didn't change significantly. They just don't poop between every meal. And, if you're thinking, "Hey, maybe he's not feeding appropriately sized meals," I'll let you in on a guilty confession - to this day I still weigh every single prey item before feeding it off. Trust me - they're appropriately sized.

For your other question about him "knowing" - I doubt it. We do know that their brain's aren't nearly as evolved as our own, and that kind of foresight would be beyond what they're likely capable of. I suppose anything's possible, but again - I doubt it.

Also, and I don't mean any ill-intentions by saying this, vet's shouldn't always be the end-all-be-all experts. I work with several every single day. The good ones will be the first to tell you when their education ends and their experience begins. Often times they'll defer to those with vast amounts of practical experience over relying solely on their studies.