So what's the consensus on Spider x Spider?

I was under the impression that breeding a spider to another spider can result in dead hatchlings/is lethal? Same with Champagne to Spider? I talked to a breeder at Repticon today and asked him about it and he had no idea what I was talking about. Can you breed Spider x Spider safely?

There's a good blurb on spider x spider pairings at the bottom of this page: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

Personally, I wouldn't let it stop me from doing a pairing between snakes that both have the spider gene. I wouldn't do a plain Spider x Spider, because there's no genetic progress there, just more spiders. But perhaps two spider combos.
I'll admit though, that part of the reason I would do it is out of curiosity. Would I get a higher ratio of slugs? If so, maybe there's something to the theory that the combo is lethal.

Ive seen this discussion a few times, and no one has had personal experience with increased egg loss, failure to thrives or trainwreck babies from spider x spider. There was one case where a white snake was produced and died but I personally think that was a fluke as its never been reproduced even though breeders do spider x spider pairings every year.

Personally I think the pairing is fine from a health perspective. I believe people only avoid it because most of the time you arent gaining much genetically from pairing a single gene spider to another spider gene animal.

so it is possible that there are homo spiders out there that we just don't know about. Still, we would expect that f1 spider x spider crosses would produce 25% f2 homo spider, 50% het spider, 25% homo normal. Under these circumstances, breeding f2 spider together should give us at least some f3 clutches that are 100% spider. We have been breeding spiders for a long time and no pair of spiders has consistently produced 100% spider litters. This suggests that homo spiders are non existent. It should be noted that the spider gene is either responsible for, or closely linked to a gene that is responsible for a serious neurological defect. It is highly likely that a double dose of this gene make it impossible for a viable snake to form and thrive. It is very likely that homo spider is lethal. Since some f2 litters have more slugs than expected, it is likely that homo spider is lethal at a very early stage.

Making this more likely is the fact that other genes that have the same neurological disorder have been shown to be homozygous lethal. For example, both spider and champagne wobble, and spider champagne in lethal. Champagne wobbles and super champagne is lethal.

In Short, double wobble= dead baby ball python.

David

Okay, we have a Queen Bee Male (Lesser Pastel Spider) and a Bumble Bee girl (Spider Pastel).

We've been trying to get a new male without spider since we thought we could not breed these two together without producing dead babies. So now it is to my understanding that they will not produce dead babies (since a homozygous spider is perhaps not even possible); But, I've read that Spider x Spider produce more slugs? Any insight on that? Or experience with severe wobble babies from Spider x Spider It seems like very little people have actually bred two Spider genes together. The breeder at Repticon says he's seen someone that's bred Spider x Spider with no issues, but he also didn't know about the lethal combo of champagne x spider so I'm kind of taking what he says with a grain of salt. I've also never seen someone breed a spider gene bp to another bp with spider in it. Everything I've read so far from research seems like speculation with no solid answers still.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Okay, we have a Queen Bee Male (Lesser Pastel Spider) and a Bumble Bee girl (Spider Pastel).

We've been trying to get a new male without spider since we thought we could not breed these two together without producing dead babies. So now it is to my understanding that they will not produce dead babies (since a homozygous spider is perhaps not even possible); But, I've read that Spider x Spider produce more slugs? Any insight on that? Or experience with severe wobble babies from Spider x Spider It seems like very little people have actually bred two Spider genes together. The breeder at Repticon says he's seen someone that's bred Spider x Spider with no issues, but he also didn't know about the lethal combo of champagne x spider so I'm kind of taking what he says with a grain of salt. I've also never seen someone breed a spider gene bp to another bp with spider in it. Everything I've read so far from research seems like speculation with no solid answers still.

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Spider x Spider pairings arent that uncommon, but many people dont advertise the pairing because it still starts arguments. From what Ive seen, there isnt an increase of slugs/dead eggs/failure to thrives even after years of debate. There have been people swearing its lethal, youll get trainwrecks, increased slugs, failure to thrives since 2009 but no one has ever backed up that claim. NERD bred spider x spider for years trying for a super, and didnt seem to hit anything visually different, but also didnt get any of the negative issues people are concerned with (its in one of their videos, Ill try and find it).

I really think spider is just dominant like pinstripe. Even though we know you can make healthy super pins and pinstripes are just as common as spiders, when was the last time you saw a super pin? It just takes too much time to prove out, most people are working on other projects and theres no way a buyer can know they are getting a super except by taking your work. You dont even see possible super pins that often. With all the stigma of the super spider, at this point I think that even if someone thought they had one they would be tempted not to advertize it. Who needs the argument?

What about spider x woma

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Here's a bit with Kevin talking about it
https://youtu.be/1SD9vNNQWC4?t=4m24s

Okay, so I'm curious now. If Spider x Spider pairings haven't produced a super spider, then how is it that the babies only inherit one copy of the gene? Statistically, there should have been some super spiders in there. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply prevents a zygote from thriving before it ever becomes an egg? I've had enough college and biology classes to think that logically, this shouldn't happen. There should have been some super spiders in all those experiments. The same thing applies to pinstripes.

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Originally Posted by ajmreptiles

Here's a bit with Kevin talking about it
https://youtu.be/1SD9vNNQWC4?t=4m24s

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On an unrelated note, at about 16:10 they mention "Don't go into your breeding season if your female is colossal. You want to feed trigger." They talk about how their huge 3500g females would never build follicles because they wouldn't trigger the process with food. What does this mean?

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

On an unrelated note, at about 16:10 they mention "Don't go into your breeding season if your female is colossal. You want to feed trigger." They talk about how their huge 3500g females would never build follicles because they wouldn't trigger the process with food. What does this mean?

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When the female is at a healthy weight and starts to build follicles, it will trigger more of a food response as she is wants to build some fat reserves to sustain herself through the breeding season. In the wild, when they are close to ovulation they probably don't eat until the eggs they have been incubating hatch.

back when breeders like Brian, Kevin, and the other pioneering BP breeders were starting out, there really wasn't that wealth of knowledge on breeding these animals in captivity that there is today, so they were figuring a lot of this out as they were going a long based on what they knew of breeding other python species

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Originally Posted by ajmreptiles

When the female is at a healthy weight and starts to build follicles, it will trigger more of a food response as she is wants to build some fat reserves to sustain herself through the breeding season. In the wild, when they are close to ovulation they probably don't eat until the eggs they have been incubating hatch.

back when breeders like Brian, Kevin, and the other pioneering BP breeders were starting out, there really wasn't that wealth of knowledge on breeding these animals in captivity that there is today, so they were figuring a lot of this out as they were going a long based on what they knew of breeding other python species

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So if I understand correctly, you want to keep your female at a healthy weight (not too large or small) so that you can feed her consistently around breeding season, as giving her food triggers follicular growth. So perhaps the breeders in the video were not feeding their females as much because they didn't need the food as often because they were already so large or the snakes were refusing because of already being overweight.

there are a bunch of triggers that breeders like Kevin and Brian use to educe strong folicular growth
Brian often talks about
Temperature (the slight cool down in temp but not nearly as drastic as colubrid hibernation)
copulation
food
and sometimes time of year
there's one other I believe but off the top of my it escapes me.

at the end of the day take their wisdom along with may others here to find out what works best for your animals.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixGate

Okay, so I'm curious now. If Spider x Spider pairings haven't produced a super spider, then how is it that the babies only inherit one copy of the gene? Statistically, there should have been some super spiders in there. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply prevents a zygote from thriving before it ever becomes an egg? I've had enough college and biology classes to think that logically, this shouldn't happen. There should have been some super spiders in all those experiments. The same thing applies to pinstripes.

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I'm coming late to this thread, but I don't think the quote was answered adequately.

Statistically, a spider x spider mating should produce some super spiders among the babies. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply kills a super spider zygote either before or shortly after the eggs are laid, long before hatching time. Maybe those dead eggs are simply lost in the shuffle among dead eggs from all causes. I've never expected a 100% hatch rate with my snake eggs. IMO, if everything is right, any rate over 80% is acceptable.

http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/...el/mendel5.htm

The above link discusses dominant yellow, a lethal mutant gene in mice. The genetics of the spider gene may be similar, even if the physiology is different.

For what it's worth, I do not think enough statistics have been collected for a consensus about the spider gene to be reached. I have never made a spider x spider mating because I've never had the snakes. But I would have no hesitation making a spider x spider mating. I have made that sort of matings with dominant lethal mutant genes in zebra finches and ringneck doves.

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Originally Posted by paulh

I'm coming late to this thread, but I don't think the quote was answered adequately.

Statistically, a spider x spider mating should produce some super spiders among the babies. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply kills a super spider zygote either before or shortly after the eggs are laid, long before hatching time. Maybe those dead eggs are simply lost in the shuffle among dead eggs from all causes. I've never expected a 100% hatch rate with my snake eggs. IMO, if everything is right, any rate over 80% is acceptable.

http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/...el/mendel5.htm

The above link discusses dominant yellow, a lethal mutant gene in mice. The genetics of the spider gene may be similar, even if the physiology is different.

For what it's worth, I do not think enough statistics have been collected for a consensus about the spider gene to be reached. I have never made a spider x spider mating because I've never had the snakes. But I would have no hesitation making a spider x spider mating. I have made that sort of matings with dominant lethal mutant genes in zebra finches and ringneck doves.

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The spider gene has been around since what 1999? Kevin I am guessing has done 100s if not more spider x spider breedings alone. Not to mention all the other breeders that have done it. All these years I have heard of one white snake that was dead in the egg. Which I have a feeling was just undeveloped. I have seen those a couple times myself with no spider involved. I think there is plenty of info out there to debunk the myth of spider x spider being lethal. We figured out the other morphs being lethal quick. Like champ x champ, HGW x HGW, etc......

the consensus is we are at a stand still in the debate.

There are scattered reports of more than expected slugs less than expected eggs, a couple white snakes. but nothing you can draw a solid conclusion off of. Any slugs or less than expect eggs or white snakes could be excused to "it happens" so you're never going to prove anything that way anyways. Then you have claims of 1209483897253247859 spider x spider breedings, only a handful are actually reported and none of them try to prove out a super spider, to prove the gene to be dominant. If you want to claim its not lethal you have to get an alive super spider or explain why its not lethal but also can't happen.

so simple answer is we don't know and there really hasn't been new information in years

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

the consensus is we are at a stand still in the debate.

There are scattered reports of more than expected slugs less than expected eggs, a couple white snakes. but nothing you can draw a solid conclusion off of. Any slugs or less than expect eggs or white snakes could be excused to "it happens" so you're never going to prove anything that way anyways. Then you have claims of 1209483897253247859 spider x spider breedings, only a handful are actually reported and none of them try to prove out a super spider, to prove the gene to be dominant. If you want to claim its not lethal you have to get an alive super spider or explain why its not lethal but also can't happen.

so simple answer is we don't know and there really hasn't been new information in years

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How many breedings will it take to prove it? Slugs don't mean anything a large amount of infertile eggs would probably though. A spider x spider statistically would be what 25% supers? I think there would be a lot of discussion if there was only 75% of spider x spider clutches surviving. I have only done a few myself never saw anything different about them but that is only a small amount for myself. Why would I or anyone else report their findings? I thought most thought of this as a myth.

So I guess it's safe to say that I can probably breed a python to spider in it with another python with spider in it and not expect anything awful to happen just because the parents both have spider in them.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

So I guess it's safe to say that I can probably breed a python to spider in it with another python with spider in it and not expect anything awful to happen just because the parents both have spider in them.

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I think it's safe to say that, yes.

Even if it isn't harmful, it isn't usually a particularly productive combination. Say I wanted queenbees when I currently have a male lesser bee and a female bumblebee. I could get my queenbees from breeding the two, but in the end I think it would be a more productive use of my female to put her to a different male and think about the queenbees in a later season. Since it's reasonable to assume at this point that super spiders don't exist, why would I double up spider genes when I have other options available? My males breeding potential as a two-gene animal are essentially being thrown away. I suppose I have increased odds of spider combos, but it still isn't enough to justify the pairing in my head when I have more appealing choices to pursue (my cinnapin or my calico pastel are certainly much more attractive mates for this girl!).

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Originally Posted by Daigga

Even if it isn't harmful, it isn't usually a particularly productive combination. Say I wanted queenbees when I currently have a male lesser bee and a female bumblebee. I could get my queenbees from breeding the two, but in the end I think it would be a more productive use of my female to put her to a different male and think about the queenbees in a later season. Since it's reasonable to assume at this point that super spiders don't exist, why would I double up spider genes when I have other options available? My males breeding potential as a two-gene animal are essentially being thrown away. I suppose I have increased odds of spider combos, but it still isn't enough to justify the pairing in my head when I have more appealing choices to pursue (my cinnapin or my calico pastel are certainly much more attractive mates for this girl!).

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I get what you are saying. However if I want queenbees I wouldn't buy a lesser male to breed to the bumblebee. If I have a lesserbee I would breed and increase my chances of getting the spider gene. Some people might only have 1 or 2 males and don't necessarily have different options.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I get what you are saying. However if I want queenbees I wouldn't buy a lesser male to breed to the bumblebee. If I have a lesserbee I would breed and increase my chances of getting the spider gene. Some people might only have 1 or 2 males and don't necessarily have different options.

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True, and if you don't have those more appealing options available then I suppose there really isn't any reason not to go for it. Though I wouldn't say I have a large collection, only 8 breeding individuals. For me it would just make more sense to pair offspring from the next generation I produce if I wanted those queenbees. A pewter blast or a super pastel calico just seem like they would pair better with a lesser bee in my situation. I'm always preaching patience, may as well practice my own advice, yeah?

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Originally Posted by nightrainfalls

so it is possible that there are homo spiders out there that we just don't know about. Still, we would expect that f1 spider x spider crosses would produce 25% f2 homo spider, 50% het spider, 25% homo normal. Under these circumstances, breeding f2 spider together should give us at least some f3 clutches that are 100% spider. We have been breeding spiders for a long time and no pair of spiders has consistently produced 100% spider litters. This suggests that homo spiders are non existent. It should be noted that the spider gene is either responsible for, or closely linked to a gene that is responsible for a serious neurological defect. It is highly likely that a double dose of this gene make it impossible for a viable snake to form and thrive. It is very likely that homo spider is lethal. Since some f2 litters have more slugs than expected, it is likely that homo spider is lethal at a very early stage.

Making this more likely is the fact that other genes that have the same neurological disorder have been shown to be homozygous lethal. For example, both spider and champagne wobble, and spider champagne in lethal. Champagne wobbles and super champagne is lethal.

In Short, double wobble= dead baby ball python.

David

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Put the drugs down and step away! You are clueless! Give Kevin at NERD a call,since he imported the original,and can educate you.;) Spider x spider is not lethal.

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Originally Posted by bondo

How many breedings will it take to prove it? Slugs don't mean anything a large amount of infertile eggs would probably though. A spider x spider statistically would be what 25% supers? I think there would be a lot of discussion if there was only 75% of spider x spider clutches surviving. I have only done a few myself never saw anything different about them but that is only a small amount for myself. Why would I or anyone else report their findings? I thought most thought of this as a myth.

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Make enough spider to spider matings to produce 25 or more spider babies. Raise all of them to maturity and mate them to normal ball pythons. If one of those spider to normal matings produces 10 or more spider babies and no normal babies, then the spider is classed as having a pair of spider genes. If any normal babies occur, then the spider parent has a spider gene paired with a normal gene.

If each of the spider parents in the above matings has a spider gene paired with a normal gene, then the odds are over 99% that two spider genes is lethal.

I'd also like to see the numbers of normal babies and spider babies from about 50 clutches of eggs. The expectation is 50/50 spider and normal. But even one spider gene might be disadvantageous. That would produce a skewed ratio.

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

.... Spider x spider is not lethal.

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Does spider x spider mean a mating of spider to spider, or does it mean a ball python with two spider genes?

Spider x Spider sounds like a risky idea ....surely the risk of 'wobble' will raise dramatically !!??

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Spider x Spider sounds like a risky idea ....surely the risk of 'wobble' will raise dramatically !!??

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Not a risky idea. Also the wobble is part of the gene so not sure how the risk can raise when it is there regardless.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Make enough spider to spider matings to produce 25 or more spider babies. Raise all of them to maturity and mate them to normal ball pythons. If one of those spider to normal matings produces 10 or more spider babies and no normal babies, then the spider is classed as having a pair of spider genes. If any normal babies occur, then the spider parent has a spider gene paired with a normal gene.

If each of the spider parents in the above matings has a spider gene paired with a normal gene, then the odds are over 99% that two spider genes is lethal.

I'd also like to see the numbers of normal babies and spider babies from about 50 clutches of eggs. The expectation is 50/50 spider and normal. But even one spider gene might be disadvantageous. That would produce a skewed ratio.


Does spider x spider mean a mating of spider to spider, or does it mean a ball python with two spider genes?

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The logic here isn't quite right. Bear in mind that people have tried to prove out a homozygous pinstripe for about as long as spider, and such a snake simply doesn't exist. Obviously no one here is debating over genes like pinstripe or calico being fatal in double doses, so it's fair to assume lack of super does not equate to lethal genetics.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Not a risky idea. Also the wobble is part of the gene so not sure how the risk can raise when it is there regardless.

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Well the wobble is an unwanted defect and most breed them with non Spider gene morphs so at least it's watered down to 50:50 chances but presumably if it's a Spider x Spider the gene is 100% going to be passed onto the offspring !??

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well the wobble is an unwanted defect and most breed them with non Spider gene morphs so at least it's watered down to 50:50 chances but presumably if it's a Spider x Spider the gene is 100% going to be passed onto the offspring !??

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You can't water down the wobble, it's attached 100% to the spider gene (and the other wobble genes as well). If you have a spider, it has a wobble. End of story. It may not be severe, but it's certainly there.

I've heard wobble is just chance, and not passed on genetically? What I mean is, if a spider parent has bad wobble, that doesn't mean it'll pass it's bad wobble to its hatchlings. The hatchlings could be spider and with no wobble at all.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I've heard wobble is just chance, and not passed on genetically? What I mean is, if a spider parent has bad wobble, that doesn't mean it'll pass it's bad wobble to its hatchlings. The hatchlings could be spider and with no wobble at all.

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Close, but no. ALL spiders have a wobble, but the degree to which they wobble is not determined by the severity of the wobble in the parents. You can have a really bad wobbler that produces seemingly normal offspring, or a seemingly normal parent that produces trainwreck wobblers. However, as I said before, if you have a spider, it has a wobble.

I have a lesser bee and a bumblebee, so two spiders. My lesser bee is a mess and the most flamboyant wobble example I have ever seen. My bumblebee doesn't seem to wobble hardly at all. The lesser bee can produce snakes like the bumblebee and the bumblebee can produce snakes like the lesser bee, but there is always a wobble attached to the spider gene.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well the wobble is an unwanted defect and most breed them with non Spider gene morphs so at least it's watered down to 50:50 chances but presumably if it's a Spider x Spider the gene is 100% going to be passed onto the offspring !??

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The wobble is there regardless what you breed. You can't make it stronger or weaker or remove it. However if you breed say a spider and sable then you have an extreme issue there. Same with champ, HGW, etc.... There are morphs that don't work crossed to a spider it does equal lethal or extremely messed up. Spider x spider is not one of those breedings though.

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Originally Posted by bondo

How many breedings will it take to prove it? Slugs don't mean anything a large amount of infertile eggs would probably though. A spider x spider statistically would be what 25% supers? I think there would be a lot of discussion if there was only 75% of spider x spider clutches surviving. I have only done a few myself never saw anything different about them but that is only a small amount for myself. Why would I or anyone else report their findings? I thought most thought of this as a myth.

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To prove super spider exists, it only takes one breeding in theory. To prove it is lethal, well how many spider x spider breeding do we have real numbers for? I doubt I could find 15 if I looked. As I already said, anything lethal can be wrote off as "it happens" so what proof can you really provide? I did spider x spider this year, I was waiting for eggs to hatch to report my clutch, but we are having the discussion already so why not. She laid 6 eggs, 2 didn't have veins, so we can just forget about them. out of the 4 eggs, 1 egg went bad. In the thread here, I talk about cutting open the egg, It was a very under developed snake. Could it be a super? sure. could it be something that happens? sure. can I prove it either way? nope. im still waiting on the remaining 3 to hatch.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I get what you are saying. However if I want queenbees I wouldn't buy a lesser male to breed to the bumblebee. If I have a lesserbee I would breed and increase my chances of getting the spider gene. Some people might only have 1 or 2 males and don't necessarily have different options.

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It would only increase your odds if the gene is not lethal, if it is lethal it would have the same chance of spiders and less non-spider offspring.

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Originally Posted by grcforce327

Put the drugs down and step away! You are clueless! Give Kevin at NERD a call,since he imported the original,and can educate you.;) Spider x spider is not lethal.

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Funny I've asked him to educate me and discuss it, shoots it down everytime, in person, on the phone, publicly on facebook, or in email. Apparently I am supposed to blindly take his word that "it's fine", and thats all he ever shares about it.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

The logic here isn't quite right. Bear in mind that people have tried to prove out a homozygous pinstripe for about as long as spider, and such a snake simply doesn't exist. Obviously no one here is debating over genes like pinstripe or calico being fatal in double doses, so it's fair to assume lack of super does not equate to lethal genetics.

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BHB has produced a homozygous pin and evan stahl currently owns one. What are you talking about? I also did a pin x pin breeding this year,7 or 8 eggs cooking right now (bad that I can't remember exactly) hopefully I can prove a homozygous pin out also sometime. Calico x calico on the other hand I have only found 1 reported calico to calico breeding and it never followed up with proving out any of the babies. If no one is doing the breedings, you are not going to hear much discussion about it.


A lack in super is a lack of actually knowing how the gene behaves.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

I've heard wobble is just chance, and not passed on genetically? What I mean is, if a spider parent has bad wobble, that doesn't mean it'll pass it's bad wobble to its hatchlings. The hatchlings could be spider and with no wobble at all.

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Yes, all spiders have the potential to wobble. the wobble can be graded on a scale of 0-10. that number appears to be randomly selected at birth. *edit* and that number can change through its life.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

Close, but no. ALL spiders have a wobble, but the degree to which they wobble is not determined by the severity of the wobble in the parents. You can have a really bad wobbler that produces seemingly normal offspring, or a seemingly normal parent that produces trainwreck wobblers. However, as I said before, if you have a spider, it has a wobble.

I have a lesser bee and a bumblebee, so two spiders. My lesser bee is a mess and the most flamboyant wobble example I have ever seen. My bumblebee doesn't seem to wobble hardly at all. The lesser bee can produce snakes like the bumblebee and the bumblebee can produce snakes like the lesser bee, but there is always a wobble attached to the spider gene.

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Exactly right. I have had snakes with the spider gene that go 5 years and show pretty much no sign. Then bang one day the snake is holding it's head sideways and missing strikes. I agree that ALL spiders hold the wobble gene. Some show it some don't. Some will get worse some won't.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Funny I've asked him to educate me and discuss it, shoots it down everytime, in person, on the phone, publicly on facebook, or in email. Apparently I am supposed to blindly take his word that "it's fine", and thats all he ever shares about it.



BHB has produced a homozygous pin and evan stahl currently owns one. What are you talking about? I also did a pin x pin breeding this year,7 or 8 eggs cooking right now (bad that I can't remember exactly) hopefully I can prove a homozygous pin out also sometime. Calico x calico on the other hand I have only found 1 reported calico to calico breeding and it never followed up with proving out any of the babies. If no one is doing the breedings, you are not going to hear much discussion about it.

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So you don't trust Kevin's word but you believe the word of Brian and Evan. It doesn't matter to me either way. Just thought that was kind of odd. Don't get me wrong Kevin has given some wrong info in his time. After 16 years of breeding spiders I would think his info should be pretty good by now though. Also considering the spider gene is worth very little now so no reason to bs people. Like I said I have done the breeding myself a few times. Do I have proof, documentation, pictures, etc.? No I don't because I felt there was no reason to because it isn't lethal. Trust me if anything weird would of happened I would of posted it everywhere.

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Originally Posted by bondo

So you don't trust Kevin's word but you believe the word of Brian and Evan. It doesn't matter to me either way. Just thought that was kind of odd. Don't get me wrong Kevin has given some wrong info in his time. After 16 years of breeding spiders I would think his info should be pretty good by now though. Also considering the spider gene is worth very little now so no reason to bs people. Like I said I have done the breeding myself a few times. Do I have proof, documentation, pictures, etc.? No I don't because I felt there was no reason to because it isn't lethal. Trust me if anything weird would of happened I would of posted it everywhere.

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Both brian and evan gave me their numbers. Kevin just says its fine. When it comes down to it, proof is only going to be peoples words, documentation or picture can be manipulated in ways. What would you considered weird? As I said before there are scattered reports of things suggesting lethal. My breeding I just did could suggest it. Is there hard proof? absolutely not. and the lingering question, How do you explain a non lethal non homozygous situation?

Your clear cut answer of it's not lethal doesn't have solid evidence, just like the lethal side of the debate. So why pretend like there is a clear cut answer? Theres not.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Both brian and evan gave me their numbers. Kevin just says its fine. When it comes down to it, proof is only going to be peoples words, documentation or picture can be manipulated in ways. What would you considered weird? As I said before there are scattered reports of things suggesting lethal. My breeding I just did could suggest it. Is there hard proof? absolutely not. and the lingering question, How do you explain a non lethal non homozygous situation?

Your clear cut answer of it's not lethal doesn't have solid evidence, just like the lethal side of the debate. So why pretend like there is a clear cut answer? Theres not.

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You are right there is no 100% positive yes or no. It will probably not ever happen. Because to answer it there will have to be a super made. Just like some think a desert female can still lay a viable egg. I can't say 100% I am positive. However there comes a point when something has been tried multiple times and it doesn't happen you just say yup pretty sure now.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Well the wobble is an unwanted defect and most breed them with non Spider gene morphs so at least it's watered down to 50:50 chances but presumably if it's a Spider x Spider the gene is 100% going to be passed onto the offspring !??

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A spider ball python (with a spider gene paired to a normal gene) mated to a non-spider ball python is expected to produce 50% spider with wobble and 50% non-spider without wobble. That's not watering down, it's just statistics.

What is a spider x spider?

Is it a spider with two spider genes in the gene pair? If so, then mating it to a normal will produce 100% spider babies (snakes with a spider gene paired with a normal gene).

Or is spider x spider the mating of a spider ball python to a spider ball python (each with a spider gene paired with a normal gene)? Doing a Punnett square for this mating gives the following expected results:
25% normal (with 2 normal genes) -- alive
50% spider with wobble (with a spider gene paired with a normal gene) -- alive
25% appearance unknown, AKA super spider (with a gene pair containing 2 spider genes) -- possibly dead

IMO, when Kevin says spider x spider is fine, he means the second -- spider ball python mated to spider ball python. And it is fine because most of the expected babies hatch out, and those babies are just as healthy as babies from a spider ball python (with one spider gene) mated to a normal.

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Originally Posted by paulh

A spider ball python (with a spider gene paired to a normal gene) mated to a non-spider ball python is expected to produce 50% spider with wobble and 50% non-spider without wobble. That's not watering down, it's just statistics.

What is a spider x spider?

Is it a spider with two spider genes in the gene pair? If so, then mating it to a normal will produce 100% spider babies (snakes with a spider gene paired with a normal gene).

Or is spider x spider the mating of a spider ball python to a spider ball python (each with a spider gene paired with a normal gene)? Doing a Punnett square for this mating gives the following expected results:
25% normal (with 2 normal genes) -- alive
50% spider with wobble (with a spider gene paired with a normal gene) -- alive
25% appearance unknown, AKA super spider (with a gene pair containing 2 spider genes) -- possibly dead

IMO, when Kevin says spider x spider is fine, he means the second -- spider ball python mated to spider ball python. And it is fine because most of the expected babies hatch out, and those babies are just as healthy as babies from a spider ball python (with one spider gene) mated to a normal.

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The wobble is in ever snake with spider in it. There is no spider with out a wobble. Some just display it some dont. Some will have no wobble for years then It will start wobbling for no reason.


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Originally Posted by bondo

You are right there is no 100% positive yes or no. It will probably not ever happen. Because to answer it there will have to be a super made.

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I think we can agree there, the "alive" side of the debate hasn't produced a super spider, the "doesn't exist" side of the debate can't explain the no homozygous no lethal part and the "lethal" side doesn't have good evidence. I don't see how the question can be answered anytime soon, besides a proven super spider coming to light. Which honestly, while i think it is unlikely, I don't think is completely out of the question. I mean whens the last time you heard about someone trying to prove one out? because I've never heard of anyone trying it, even NERD. We all assume they would of, but again all I've heard about it, is they are fine lol.