So what's the consensus on Spider x Spider?

[paulh]

Okay, so I'm curious now. If Spider x Spider pairings haven't produced a super spider, then how is it that the babies only inherit one copy of the gene? Statistically, there should have been some super spiders in there. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply prevents a zygote from thriving before it ever becomes an egg? I've had enough college and biology classes to think that logically, this shouldn't happen. There should have been some super spiders in all those experiments. The same thing applies to pinstripes.

I'm coming late to this thread, but I don't think the quote was answered adequately.

Statistically, a spider x spider mating should produce some super spiders among the babies. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply kills a super spider zygote either before or shortly after the eggs are laid, long before hatching time. Maybe those dead eggs are simply lost in the shuffle among dead eggs from all causes. I've never expected a 100% hatch rate with my snake eggs. IMO, if everything is right, any rate over 80% is acceptable.

http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/...el/mendel5.htm

The above link discusses dominant yellow, a lethal mutant gene in mice. The genetics of the spider gene may be similar, even if the physiology is different.

For what it's worth, I do not think enough statistics have been collected for a consensus about the spider gene to be reached. I have never made a spider x spider mating because I've never had the snakes. But I would have no hesitation making a spider x spider mating. I have made that sort of matings with dominant lethal mutant genes in zebra finches and ringneck doves.

[bondo]

I'm coming late to this thread, but I don't think the quote was answered adequately.

Statistically, a spider x spider mating should produce some super spiders among the babies. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply kills a super spider zygote either before or shortly after the eggs are laid, long before hatching time. Maybe those dead eggs are simply lost in the shuffle among dead eggs from all causes. I've never expected a 100% hatch rate with my snake eggs. IMO, if everything is right, any rate over 80% is acceptable.

http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/...el/mendel5.htm

The above link discusses dominant yellow, a lethal mutant gene in mice. The genetics of the spider gene may be similar, even if the physiology is different.

For what it's worth, I do not think enough statistics have been collected for a consensus about the spider gene to be reached. I have never made a spider x spider mating because I've never had the snakes. But I would have no hesitation making a spider x spider mating. I have made that sort of matings with dominant lethal mutant genes in zebra finches and ringneck doves.

The spider gene has been around since what 1999? Kevin I am guessing has done 100s if not more spider x spider breedings alone. Not to mention all the other breeders that have done it. All these years I have heard of one white snake that was dead in the egg. Which I have a feeling was just undeveloped. I have seen those a couple times myself with no spider involved. I think there is plenty of info out there to debunk the myth of spider x spider being lethal. We figured out the other morphs being lethal quick. Like champ x champ, HGW x HGW, etc......

[OhhWatALoser]

the consensus is we are at a stand still in the debate.

There are scattered reports of more than expected slugs less than expected eggs, a couple white snakes. but nothing you can draw a solid conclusion off of. Any slugs or less than expect eggs or white snakes could be excused to "it happens" so you're never going to prove anything that way anyways. Then you have claims of 1209483897253247859 spider x spider breedings, only a handful are actually reported and none of them try to prove out a super spider, to prove the gene to be dominant. If you want to claim its not lethal you have to get an alive super spider or explain why its not lethal but also can't happen.

so simple answer is we don't know and there really hasn't been new information in years

[bondo]

the consensus is we are at a stand still in the debate.

There are scattered reports of more than expected slugs less than expected eggs, a couple white snakes. but nothing you can draw a solid conclusion off of. Any slugs or less than expect eggs or white snakes could be excused to "it happens" so you're never going to prove anything that way anyways. Then you have claims of 1209483897253247859 spider x spider breedings, only a handful are actually reported and none of them try to prove out a super spider, to prove the gene to be dominant. If you want to claim its not lethal you have to get an alive super spider or explain why its not lethal but also can't happen.

so simple answer is we don't know and there really hasn't been new information in years

How many breedings will it take to prove it? Slugs don't mean anything a large amount of infertile eggs would probably though. A spider x spider statistically would be what 25% supers? I think there would be a lot of discussion if there was only 75% of spider x spider clutches surviving. I have only done a few myself never saw anything different about them but that is only a small amount for myself. Why would I or anyone else report their findings? I thought most thought of this as a myth.

[Galaxygirl]

So I guess it's safe to say that I can probably breed a python to spider in it with another python with spider in it and not expect anything awful to happen just because the parents both have spider in them.

[KitaCat]

So I guess it's safe to say that I can probably breed a python to spider in it with another python with spider in it and not expect anything awful to happen just because the parents both have spider in them.

I think it's safe to say that, yes.

[paulh]

How many breedings will it take to prove it? Slugs don't mean anything a large amount of infertile eggs would probably though. A spider x spider statistically would be what 25% supers? I think there would be a lot of discussion if there was only 75% of spider x spider clutches surviving. I have only done a few myself never saw anything different about them but that is only a small amount for myself. Why would I or anyone else report their findings? I thought most thought of this as a myth.

Make enough spider to spider matings to produce 25 or more spider babies. Raise all of them to maturity and mate them to normal ball pythons. If one of those spider to normal matings produces 10 or more spider babies and no normal babies, then the spider is classed as having a pair of spider genes. If any normal babies occur, then the spider parent has a spider gene paired with a normal gene.

If each of the spider parents in the above matings has a spider gene paired with a normal gene, then the odds are over 99% that two spider genes is lethal.

I'd also like to see the numbers of normal babies and spider babies from about 50 clutches of eggs. The expectation is 50/50 spider and normal. But even one spider gene might be disadvantageous. That would produce a skewed ratio.

.... Spider x spider is not lethal.

Does spider x spider mean a mating of spider to spider, or does it mean a ball python with two spider genes?

[Daigga]

Make enough spider to spider matings to produce 25 or more spider babies. Raise all of them to maturity and mate them to normal ball pythons. If one of those spider to normal matings produces 10 or more spider babies and no normal babies, then the spider is classed as having a pair of spider genes. If any normal babies occur, then the spider parent has a spider gene paired with a normal gene.

If each of the spider parents in the above matings has a spider gene paired with a normal gene, then the odds are over 99% that two spider genes is lethal.

I'd also like to see the numbers of normal babies and spider babies from about 50 clutches of eggs. The expectation is 50/50 spider and normal. But even one spider gene might be disadvantageous. That would produce a skewed ratio.


Does spider x spider mean a mating of spider to spider, or does it mean a ball python with two spider genes?

The logic here isn't quite right. Bear in mind that people have tried to prove out a homozygous pinstripe for about as long as spider, and such a snake simply doesn't exist. Obviously no one here is debating over genes like pinstripe or calico being fatal in double doses, so it's fair to assume lack of super does not equate to lethal genetics.