Huge enclosure set-up

I put this post in another thread and got no answers. I dont have a big enclosure im just curious.

I still dont understand why you cant have a ball in a big enclosure?
hahaha maybe its just me but the way I see it is if its in the wild, would it not have the "whole world" to discover.
I can see some of your guys no's to it if its a baby and will have comfortability issues, but if its an adult why not have a huge oversized tank?
I know my baby is active at night looking around but sleeps all day. why cant i have a huge tank with multiple hides she can hide in?
Especially if in the wild they move from hide to hide not really staying in the same one too long.

To add to this post I actually dont see why a baby cant be in a big tank as well. Wouldn't they go around as pleased?
Have any of you tested this to see if a big tank really stresses a baby snake out or is everyone on this topic speaking from word of mouth?
Isnt the wild world a pretty big environment compared to the tank? don't babies do fine in the wild?

It would be great if someone can answer this question for me.
Just dont answer the question unless youve tested it personally, can provide a thorough explanation, or direct me to an article with a explanation.
I dont want to hear they like tight spaces because the world doesn't press against there sides, yes there hides might but there enclosures arent hides.
I do not except that as an explanation.

I also read the article in this thread that leads me to believe they might like bigger enclosures.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...n-eating-again

In my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a bigger set up for a ball python of any age. I have adult balls in 4x2x1 cages, I also have babies in CB70 tubs. They have hides for the daytime and they utilize every inch of the cage/tub at night.

Can an adult BP spend its whole life in a CB70 tub and be happy? Absolutely. If you are trying to fit as many animals as possible in a finite space (as most breeders and prospective breeders are) its a perfectly valid husbandry strategy. Now if keeping a huge collection isnt your cup of tea, and you'd like to see a little more active behavior from your snakes then a tub will provide, knock yourself out.

Personally I wont go bigger then 4x2x1 on my adult balls because its kind of a waste. They utilize all that space well, but any bigger is unnecessary

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk 2

yea I understand that if you need the space why do it. but Ive seen people on here strongly advise against it.
Does putting a baby ball in a 40 gallon enclosure really cause stress? It doesnt make sense to me that it would.

We have an adult healthy and happy female bp in a 100 gallon tank. I have custom lids to keep in humidty, she has three hides, good plant like stuff, a basking perch, a log for climbing and rubbing, a big 'ol water dish, some over head heat, some under heat, gets fed in her enclosure, sheds great, and eats like a champ. If the husbandry is there, they are eating....then what else matters. Surely not a dimension that may be right or wrong depending on who you ask.

enclosure sizes are guidelines. It's kind of like everyone saying 2 hides is "required", that isn't necessarily true, HOWEVER that being said a lot of people find this site that are new to reptiles, that have no experience and the guidlines are a good starting point for them, they are tried and true methods that will set you up for success when keeping your new reptile. As you become more accustomed to keeping reptiles and you have the very basics of husbandry down then you can branch out from said guidelines and see what works for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

yea I understand that if you need the space why do it. but Ive seen people on here strongly advise against it.
Does putting a baby ball in a 40 gallon enclosure really cause stress? It doesnt make sense to me that it would.

---

My baby (100 g) bp is in a 50 gallon enclosure. It is really cluttered (so it looks like a forest), but he is not stressed. He actually has become more active since I put him in there than he was in his 10 gallon enclosure. He moves all over the place, sometimes even during the day time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyByrd

My baby (100 g) bp is in a 50 gallon enclosure. It is really cluttered (so it looks like a forest), but he is not stressed. He actually has become more active since I put him in there than he was in his 10 gallon enclosure. He moves all over the place, sometimes even during the day time.

---

A lot of movement during the day tends to imply that the animal is not, in fact, comfortable with its surroundings. Somebody recently said that a happy BP is a hiding one, and although I'm pretty new to this myself, I'm discovering that to be true.

I think you should turn an entire room into your ball python enclosure.

I think the same im going to find a way to do it someday hahahah

There are several optimal ways to keep Ball Pythons, and several truly horrible ways to keep Ball Pythons; which leaves tons of room in the middle. The middle is neither good, or bad, just not always within what most keepers recognize as normal. While I don't think it's horrible to keep a BP, even a baby BP in a huge tank, I think you have to be responsive to YOUR individual animal. Some will do just fine in a large environment, and some will stress out to the point of going off food.

And while we're on the subject of stress, please allow me to make this point. While I agree that BPs in the wild have the whole world to explore, it's worth noting that they really only naturally occupy a small sliver of that world. And, even if you can successfully replicate that small sliver, in a 100 gallon tank, it's still a tank, and the animal is still in captivity. Both of which induce stress on the animal. No matter how comfortable you think your little Beeper is, there is stress involved with being in captivity for any wild animal. If your animal deals with that stress well enough to also handle a large enclosure, then good on both of you...have a ball, so to speak. But, this will not be the case for every animal. To talk of building super large enclosures before you even own an animal that will be comfortable in that type of environment is not only putting the two wheeled buggy in front of the equine, it's frankly selfish on the keepers part.

Too many times I see threads asking, "Why can't I keep my BP in a huge natural cage, for the good of the animal", when what the keeper really means is, I want my BPs to be cool display animals, and since they just don't do that well, I'm gonna' make a display out of their cage, and the animal will just have to deal with it...for it's own good.

This is one area where checking your ego at the door could benefit your snake in the long run.

Again. let me be clear. I'm not saying huge enclosures are inherently a bad thing, but if your snake does not thrive in that environment, you should be prepared to ego check out that situation and move the animal to an enclosure more suited to that individual snake.

Yes but im saying how do you know that a large enclosure will stress out the snake and why. I read what your saying but your saying that with what proof. It doesn't make any sense at all to me that a ball would stress out in a bigger environment. How do you know that a ball will stress out in a bigger environment. Is this common knowledge that someone started and everyone just spits out when the topic arises or have you tested it and have an actual reason. Are you just repeating what was told to you when you first started or are you making an actual knowledgeable statement. The way I see it is: if the husbandry is right and the snake is being properly treated for then why not? and yes it may be a small sliver of the world they cover in the wild but they definitely cover bigger than a 100 gal tank worth of space.

Baby snakes in the wild don't have enclosures. So why does a bigger enclosure cause them not to eat and how do you specifically know?
same question for adult snakes as above. How do you know that its bad for a snake? and if nobody knows and is spewing unchecked or untested "knowledge" then why should anyone speak against it except for its easier for a beginner to keep the husbandry right in a smaller enclosure.

The biggest issues with larger enclosures are providing appropriate environmental conditions and cleaning. Also, with animals that are fairly sedentary, having a larger enclosure is often considered a waste of space due to it being utilized less than 50% of the time.
I think that often when people have larger enclosures they are not providing adequate environmental conditions, which does stress the animal.

why does anyone think a big tank will stress the snake out?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gardenfiend138

The biggest issues with larger enclosures are providing appropriate environmental conditions and cleaning. Also, with animals that are fairly sedentary, having a larger enclosure is often considered a waste of space due to it being utilized less than 50% of the time.
I think that often when people have larger enclosures they are not providing adequate environmental conditions, which does stress the animal.

---

Ok that makes sense to me on that approach but what your saying with the proper conditions doesn't seem to be what others are addressing when they talk about enclosure size. And yea but its only a waste of space 50% of the time and if its not there it doesn't have the option. So can a snake possibly be less stressed in a bigger enclosure if conditions are proper?

I rarely do what I'm about to do, but since I've already put this one in the SMH category, here goes...

First and foremost, cheaversg, it's becoming clear to me that you already have all the answers you want, and are just looking for confirmation at this point. But before you continue with your Space Shuttle maintenance, please allow me to respond to your last post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

Yes but im saying how do you know that a large enclosure will stress out the snake and why.

---

Because I've seen too many cases where someone brings home a juvenile BP and puts it in a large tank, then comes on here having an aneurism because their snake won't eat. The advise is almost always to let the snake settle, put it in a smaller environment, and give it secure hides. And lo and behold, the darned ole' snake starts to eatin' their vittles...

Does this happen to all snakes? NO IT DOES NOT. Pretty sure I stated that. Can it happen, and should you be prepared to deal with it? YES YOU SHOULD. Pretty sure I stated that to.

Your problem is that you haven't checked your ego at the door yet. You think that surely MY snake won't get stressed by a larger cage...why heck, they have the whole of the African Savannah to roam around in. In reality, in the wild, they live in small, tight, holes in the ground and move mostly because the need to in order to fulfill one or more basic needs, not because they want to go sight seeing. You see, on the African Savannah, sight seeing for the sake of sight seeing, will get you eaten.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

I read what your saying but your saying that with what proof.

---

Proof? Nothing scientific, but I'm saying it with 6 years of experience in my rear view mirror, and while that is many years less experience than some, I would venture to guess it's a lot more than you have. Not trying to be rude, but you did ask.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

It doesn't make any sense at all to me that a ball would stress out in a bigger environment.

---

You have make this point quite clear...:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

How do you know that a ball will stress out in a bigger environment.

---

As I clearly stated previously, not all of them will. But ask yourself this question, if yours does, what are you willing to do? Are you willing to move the animal to an enclosure more suited to that particular snake? Or will your ego rule the day and will you continue to house the animal in your Big Country Safari?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

Is this common knowledge that someone started and everyone just spits out when the topic arises or have you tested it and have an actual reason. Are you just repeating what was told to you when you first started or are you making an actual knowledgeable statement.

---

Common knowledge and common husbandry practices are common for a reason... Again, I'm giving you advice based on my experience and my knowledge. If you choose to take another path, that is your right. But I would always ask you to do what's right for your animal, before you do what's right for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

The way I see it is: if the husbandry is right and the snake is being properly treated for then why not?

---

I see it that way too. How did you manage to miss that point in my previous post? However, and let's just kick this around for giggles and grins, what happens if even with your husbandry being right, your snake shows signs of stress? What steps will you take to correct the situation? Do you even know what signs to look for? These are things worth thinking about before you build your "Born Free" exhibit and drop any ole' BP you might have laying around into it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

and yes it may be a small sliver of the world they cover in the wild but they definitely cover bigger than a 100 gal tank worth of space.

---

Really? How often? Where is your proof? Is this common knowledge that someone started and everyone just spits out when the topic arises or have you tested it and have an actual reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

Baby snakes in the wild don't have enclosures. So why does a bigger enclosure cause them not to eat and how do you specifically know?
same question for adult snakes as above. How do you know that its bad for a snake? and if nobody knows and is spewing unchecked or untested "knowledge" then why should anyone speak against it except for its easier for a beginner to keep the husbandry right in a smaller enclosure.

---

AGAIN, Baby snakes in the wild don't deal with the stress of being captive on a daily basis. Same goes for adult snakes. And please, for the freaking love of anything you hold dear, show me where I said this was always a bad idea? I made the point that every snake is an individual, and you need to do what's right for the individual animal. If that means keeping them in a 7,000 square foot slice of Africa, then build away and have a freakin' blast. But it might also mean your snake is most comfortable and shows the least signs of stress in a 36 qt tub. Are you willing to do what's right for your snake?

cheaversg....How long have you been raising Ball Pythons? Basically do what you want to do, but please for the sake of the animal, if you notice any stress, please fix the problem. When I first got into raising BP's I thought the same way you are right now. Needless to say, I had 1 snake stop eating for 10 1/2 months untill I decided to try a smaller home for it, then It started eating and grew like a weed. The snake you probably have Im sure was not born in the wild, so do you think it even knows what the world is like? Let it go outside and Im pretty sure it would be scared and rather hide as much as it could! Just my thoughts on this subject.

I find this thread shallow and pedantic :D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

alright no need for dissecting everything i say like that but okay. I actually have my baby ball in a 10 gal tank and not trying to put it in a huge tank any time soon because of lack of space. A ball python definitely covers more size than a 100 gal tank in the wild. And on something you've never tested whats your 6 years to me? Im not asking for some rude answer like that nor am i challenging your actual personal knowledge over mine.
I
f you don't want to humor my curiosity and instead just going to be a prick then don't answer me. Cause this is what this site is for for people to ask questions, communicate about reptiles or other pets, and talk right or wrong?

This question wasn't to cover common knowledge it was to find out knowledge that I haven't found on the internet and was actually curious because of another article read about snakes not eating. (did you read that article its attached)

Quite frankly you should check your ego if a question that actually challenges you to think of an answer or test a curious hypothesis causes you to answer that nastily then you got problems.

So let me rephrase my question if your gunna be a prick once again dont answer id rather not talk to you.

Why in your opinion or your experience does a large tank stress out some ball pythons?

Thank you roach that was more of an answer I was looking for cause of personal experience but everyone is caught up on the question and answering rudely when i started with my snake is in a small enclosure and ended with look at this article maybe they might like a larger enclosure better? But instead no one reads jumps to conclusion poses no facts really to me and still doesn't answer my question or thought. I trust everyone's experience here but which is why I have mine in a smaller enclosure because i am a first time owner but instead of answering my question everyone responds challenging my experience like why Still no one has answered my question and i bet none of you read the article and instead jumped on the question like ants to sugar just to force experience down someones throat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

Why in your opinion or your experience does a large tank stress out some ball pythons?

---

:stupidme::stupidme::stupidme::stupidme::stupidme::stupidme:

Because they tend to do better in smaller, tighter spaces that more closely replicate the rodent burrows they occupy in the wild.

Please feel free to ask this question again. You seem to miss the answers to your questions the first several times they are presented.


And if you're gonna' resort to vulgarities, you're gonna' quickly cut off any meaningful conversation. Please resume flashing in your pan, and performing science on your rocket.

:colbert2:

I had my hatchling in a 20 gallon tank and she wouldnt eat for a month. I moved her to a 15qt tub and she eats twice a week now and has gained 40 grams. she roams much less and spends more time relaxing in her hides rather than constantly seeking somewhere safer to be. that's all the proof I need that she is much more content and secure than in the 20gal, even if I couldnt see the floor for all the clutter I put in.

Sent from my warm hide using Tapatalk

tru tru tru do you think it would be different as it gets older seeing as how it would or could go on eating fasts which is my second question? If you want my basis for that question is on the article attached to the beginning of the thread the second comment though.

I think she's always going to prefer more enclosed spaces, if thats your question. my older beep has been in larger enclosures her entire life and never went on a strike, never became defensive, and never used more than her warm hide. the only reason I switched her to a tub is because I got sick of cleaning tanks. every snake is going to have different preferences, you need to be willing to accommodate that. my little one is more comfy in small spaces, and my bigger girl has proven that she doesnt care either way, so i'm able to use what I consider easier for myself.

Sent from my warm hide using Tapatalk

Slim from the first comment on the other post you've been nothing but rude.
You either cant read or idk. I DONT HAVE MY BALL IN A BIG ENCLOSURE.
DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE I BASED MY QUESTION OFF OF. no you probably didnt.
but w.e man how dare i question anything look at the first comments from non veterans, people who still probably know more than me still.
They read that I dont have my bp in a big enclosure and was just asking but i guess Veterans who know everything can be jerks about stuff like this.
You are the rudest person ive came across on this site by far and you should try being a lot nicer smh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

Slim from the first comment on the other post you've been nothing but rude.
You either cant read or idk. I DONT HAVE MY BALL IN A BIG ENCLOSURE.
DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE I BASED MY QUESTION OFF OF. no you probably didnt.
but w.e man how dare i question anything look at the first comments from non veterans, people who still probably know more than me still.
They read that I dont have my bp in a big enclosure and was just asking but i guess Veterans who know everything can be jerks about stuff like this.
You are the rudest person ive came across on this site by far and you should try being a lot nicer smh

---

I don't see where Slim was accusing you of putting your snake in a big enclosure? :confusd::confusd::confusd::confusd:

Also telling Slim to be nice is like telling a dog to not wag its tail, it's never going to happen.

I do agree with him, though, that you came into this conversation thinking you know all the answers.

It comes down to this: some animals will be okay in a big enclosure and some won't. You have to know how to read your animal to know if they're stressed or not.

calling someone out for being rude and then telling them that they can't read is really pretty rude in itself... :rolleyes:

Sent from my warm hide using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inarikins

I don't see where Slim was accusing you of putting your snake in a big enclosure? :confusd::confusd::confusd::confusd:

Also telling Slim to be nice is like telling a dog to not wag its tail, it's never going to happen.

I do agree with him, though, that you came into this conversation thinking you know all the answers.

It comes down to this: some animals will be okay in a big enclosure and some won't. You have to know how to read your animal to know if they're stressed or not.

---

He didnt say directly but he did if you use context clues.

And if he wants to be like that then dont comment on a thread like that if your just gunna think and treat everyone like idiots.
Second i asked for experience he just said it doesnt work then he said he has six years experience afterwards but still never gave me a personal example.
WHICH IS WHAT I ASKED FOR lol.
I didnt think I had all the answers but I did say unless you have proof then I wont accept your answer and he posed me no proof except rubbing 6 years in my face. and since he didnt ever meet my criteria for an acceptable answer he's useless to me.
Archimedes answered the question with exactly how I asked can you give me an experience or proof. I said if you dont dont bother answering.

SO basically he shouldn't have answered cause to criteria of the answer... HE HAD NO ANSWER.

AND yes it was rude but in response to a rude message when he didnt read what I had asked for and kept trying to give an answer that I stated I wouldnt accept.

Saying I have 6 years under my belt what do you have isnt proof to me of the answer to the question that I had asked. Which once again I said I wouldn't accept.

The answer he gave you was the one that answered your question. You not accepting it and instead stating that he was wrong because he used the words 'your snake' in a hypothetical way means that you are the one that is unable to read the context correctly. The reason people like Slim (and people like myself, tbh) don't have personal experience with snakes in huge enclosures is that we don't keep our snakes in huge enclosures. I keep mine in tubs and tbh i don't have enough floor space to keep them all in huge tubs. They get the size they need and an upgrade when they get too big. We're talking a switch from a 6qt tub to a 16 qt tub when the snake takes up more than half of the floor space of their 6 qt tub. I don't put a 100 gram snake in a 50 gallon tank because 1) temps are impossible to keep correct in a glass tank that big and 2) I'm more concerned with my snakes' happiness and wellness and less with a pretty cage. Is it possible to keep a 100 gram snake in a 50 gallon tank and have perfect husbandry and have a perfectly eating, hiding ball python? sure. It's also possible to put that 100 gram snake in a 6 qt tub that you have to black out all the sides because even that size is too big for it.

It's all about knowing your snake and doing what's best for them, instead of insisting you have all the answers and the snake had better fall in line, doesn't that snake know that you're a human and obviously you know what's best for it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

It would be great if someone can answer this question for me.
Just dont answer the question unless youve tested it personally, can provide a thorough explanation, or direct me to an article with a explanation.
I dont want to hear they like tight spaces because the world doesn't press against there sides, yes there hides might but there enclosures arent hides.
I do not except that as an explanation.

---

He didnt answer the question. IDC about your six years I wasnt asking how many years you have thats not proof. I asked and said prove it. common knowledge isnt proof six years isnt proof. What Archimedes gave me was proof I did this and this happened. AND THAT is what I asked for in the beginning. So He shouldn't have answered because he didnt have what i was looking for. He offered me no help. If he had said It was ok to do it with no proof except 6 years I would have done the same thing.

This wasnt a post directed like i already had the answer. He just didn't post a sufficient one meeting my standards cause he didn't read. I also asked a second question which he didnt answer because once again he didnt read or didnt have the experience to answer hypothetically. I see you trying to defend him but what he said was garbage to me because he didnt have proof which is what I asked for right off the bat.

I gave up on reading after my boy slim went in lmao ... If u want to put a snake in a tank the size of a room get a bci or something .I feel like I just posted abut this yesterday ..

well you wouldnt have answered my question either nor is that what i wanted to do either so both and your boy slims answers are useless lmao

nothing about what you just said has changed the fact that you are being rude just for the sake of it. go ahead, read up on some caresheets, and soak up some information. there's about 40,000 hours' worth of experience on this site, if you simply lurk and watch how other folks solve their problems.

Sent from my warm hide using Tapatalk

i wasnt looking for a solution to a problem. I was asking a hypothetical question to someone who can give an educated answer with proof it isnt hard to understand. if i had a problem sure i would accept his answer but if no one wants to read then i cant help you when i dont accept your answer. and frankly no one else cares if their rude and because their a veteran they can be rude to me? Nah i asked a question your boy didnt answer it you did so w.e to me ill say what i gotta say cause he did too.

the problem with alot of veterans (not all you've all helped a lot really) on this site is that they forget they were beginners trying to learn like everyone else and thats my biggest problem with the group of you. Your all smart and helpful but im going to be rude if you are. Im not gunna sit here and let some of yall talk to me like however just cause you have more experience just remember when you started is all. And I know im not the only one who has felt like that.

Lol just because we're "veterans" doesn't mean we know everything. We all started out not knowing what to do and turning to others for help. I did it, I'm sure Slim did it too. The issue lies in when the person asking for help (or "hypothetically" asking for help) goes ahead and ignores all the advice they're given. It happens a lot, when you've been on here for a while. The people that understand that we're worried for their snake and just want the best for them go on to stay and do well. Those that argue and fight and pretend they know better (even though they don't and that's why they've come and asked for help) seem to leave and not come back.

The difference lies in not the advice given but in how the advice is taken. Declaring people rude simply for providing advice based not on personal proof, but experience and years of being exposed to other herpers and their problems puts you in the second category I described above. Yelling at people and calling them rude simply for trying to help, and then getting mad when they get frustrated is pretty silly.

But no, go on and keep calling us rude. You're the one demanding advice and evidence then not accepting it because it doesn't find your narrow definition of what constitutes actual evidence.

:blowkiss:

A bit unfair that you get to spout 2nd hand knowledge but tertiary gets the stiff arm. I think you should do what you like and stop looking for approval when, judging by the tone of your original post, you already know it's extremely unlikely. Use your own observations and good judgement and if you're going to try to use someone else's for your arguments, at least make sure you understand them first. If you're going to keep referencing that article as your reason for giving ball pythons larger enclosures I think you should give it another read, or two, or three.

Here's a quick synopsis for you: Ball pythons are highly sedentary creatures. They park it in a mound or borrow and chill until the likelihood of food strolling into their new home falls below comfort levels - for whatever reason.

If you're going to follow that train of thinking wouldn't you say that the time they spend above ground, on the move, is when they are most stressed? I mean, this is when they are most vulnerable to predators and are all worried about where they gonna get their next meal ticket.

IF you are providing your ball python with everything it needs I doubt it will be doing much wandering at night except to get some water and do a bit of thermoregulating. I'm pretty sure that if a ball python found a burrow in the wild that was nice and snug, and rodents and water magically appeared to keep it well sated, and their poop magically disappeared to keep things sanitary, the creature would seldom leave. As an observer of my snakes, when I see a ball python being highly active at night, I try to figure out what I'm not providing. As a general rule, ball pythons don't slither around to stretch their legs and enjoy the scenery. An active ball python is either attempting to escape discomfort(bad temperature ranges, mites, toxins come to mind) or in search of food, water, a mate. Of course, there are those outlying weirdos that just seem to wander regardless. I lump them into the group of slow learners that are following instincts to find the next hide/meal/drink/mate despite them being provided regularly on a silver platter.

Here's what you do when you're working with an animal on which you can't find much info. You provide a crazy big enclosure with every option you can think of: Low basking spot, medium basking spot, high basking spot, low hide, medium hide, high hide, humid hide, dry hide, cold hide, hot hide, etc, etc, etc. You basically provide it all and observe. You do this because you aren't sure where this new animal will thrive. After a while, using your observations, you begin removing the options that are shunned by the habitant until you end up with the ideal habitat. I guess what I'm getting at is that the ideal habitat for ball pythons is not a mystery and knowing what we know about their habits the required size for a healthy, thriving ball python isn't either. Sure you can go bigger with success, you can also go bigger with failure. We advise people to do what works best in most cases and that is a smaller habitat.

That all said, I think a person could create as large a habitat as they like to house a ball python or even group of ball pythons. If done right, I doubt the stress levels of these animals would be any lesser or greater than those of snakes kept in an appropriately set up tub. The person doing such would be doing it for their own benefit and enjoyment, the inhabitants I doubt give two farts either way - long as they get their 3 hots and a cot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

why does anyone think a big tank will stress the snake out?

---

Because big open spaces makes them more susceptible to predators. Thus they are insecure and afraid of big open spaces. If your big enclosure wasn't properly fitted with clutter and hides, a snake sure can stress from being afraid and insecure. That stress and insecurity can lead to unnatural hunger strikes, which can lead to more health issues and potentially death.

Ball pythons spend 90% of their time holed up in rodent burrows and termite mounds. Very very small spaces. The typically sit waiting for prey and journey out to find another burrow or mound to wait and ambush new prey. Or depending on the season, leave to breed. If all their necessities were provided, I doubt they would move much as someone also mentioned.

But in general, they're not exploring the great African grasslands if that's what you are implying. Ball pythons are a shy species. They prefer to hide and thrive in small spaces, which is why they make terrible display animals.

With that said, a large enclosure can work if you can provide the necessary requirements like make sure the large enclosure is full of clutter and hides. The point is to make sure it doesn't make the snake feel open or vulnerable. Its that feeling of insecurity that is bad and not necessarily the size. However, a lot of large enclosures usually aren't decorated correctly and leave a snake out in the open. You don't want an insecure snake. That just makes them go on a hunger strike and become more defensive/nippy.


My ball pythons don't get large enclosures. But even if they did, my personal animals wouldn't utilize the space. I've tried it. They're in their hides every time I check up on them. They don't even utilize the space I provide them. Maybe one out of 10 at the most. My BPs only come out of their hides to eat, shed, or thermoregulate. But other than that, they spend the majority of the time holed up in their hides. They're not given the name 'pet rocks' for a reason. I give my other species larger spaces because I know they would utilize such spaces and aren't as sensitive to stress or enclosure size as ball pythons.

And when upgrading enclosure sizes, some of my more sensitive BPs have gone off feed and only started eating again when put back into a smaller enclosure.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

well you wouldnt have answered my question either nor is that what i wanted to do either so both and your boy slims answers are useless lmao

---

I think ur question has been answered very well by very knowledgeable people ... balls do not need a lot of space ..there live in rodent holes in the wild and come out to hunt or find new living quarters .. all ur doing is looking for acceptance for what ur doing and really at the end of the day its ur snake no one elses so do what u must .. but if u happen to run into problems make sure this post is the 1st thing u check .. and if it happens to workout for u then congrats u own a bp that loves his space ...

I type 6 words a minute so i have nothing to say :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MonkeyShuttle

I type 6 words a minute so i have nothing to say :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

lmao .. what are u talking about monkey .. im so tired ... I hate working overnights

Shrug... 4 am here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yea here too .. I don't get done with grown up life until 4pm

- - - Updated - - -

still got another 12hrs .. cant wait to go home and sleep

im to go sleep in the back

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

Slim from the first comment on the other post you've been nothing but rude.
You either cant read or idk. I DONT HAVE MY BALL IN A BIG ENCLOSURE.
DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE I BASED MY QUESTION OFF OF. no you probably didnt.
but w.e man how dare i question anything look at the first comments from non veterans, people who still probably know more than me still.
They read that I dont have my bp in a big enclosure and was just asking but i guess Veterans who know everything can be jerks about stuff like this.
You are the rudest person ive came across on this site by far and you should try being a lot nicer smh

---

Yes, clearly I've been the rude one in this thread...:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inarikins

I don't see where Slim was accusing you of putting your snake in a big enclosure? :confusd::confusd::confusd::confusd:

---

Very True, but I think he went right past that fact into the land of make believe...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inarikins

Also telling Slim to be nice is like telling a dog to not wag its tail, it's never going to happen.

---

Oh, if brutal honesty just weren't soooooo darn brutal...:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

Second i asked for experience he just said it doesnt work then he said he has six years experience afterwards

---

:confusd::confusd::confusd::confusd::confusd:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheaversg

He just didn't post a sufficient one meeting my standards

---

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

OP, the veterans on this board have given you sufficient answers over and over again. Dude, I've only been a snake hobbyist for 2 and a half years and even I can tell you they prefer smaller spaces. I look in my enclosures and where are my snakes? Inside their hides, in little balls...not all stretched out. They are, after, called ball pythons... It's kinda in the name.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well first of all OP, you can't tell people not to post. It's the internet. Just because you start a thread, doesn't mean you can control who posts on it. Everybody is welcome to posting and their opinions/answers.

Secondly, you aren't going to find many with "large cage experience" here, because nobody does it. Because it typically is not the optimal housing situation for a ball python. If you want to talk to someone with experience throwing a baby ball into a 50 gallon tank, just go ask Petco. I'm sure they know. ;)

The short answer is we're not raising wild intelligent animals. They aren't exposed to it and forced to experience (however, don't throw a hatchling in a huge cage and expect it to work).

This goes back to a nature vs nurture effect, and I'm of the opinion that we've bred the nature out.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kodieh

The short answer is we're not raising wild intelligent animals. They aren't exposed to it and forced to experience (however, don't throw a hatchling in a huge cage and expect it to work).

This goes back to a nature vs nurture effect, and I'm of the opinion that we've bred the nature out.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

---

I disagree
We haven't really bred the 'nature' out. Captive BPs are still quite the same as their wild counter parts. BPs are a docile species by nature, in general. They haven't been captive bred long enough to be drastically different from the wild ones other than the paint job. They aren't domesticated. Ball pythons aren't that intelligent to begin with, but the natural survival instincts are still there. If you left CB snakes out in the wild, I bet many of them could still survive. They're still the same genetically. A WC baby could be just as tame as a CB.
Our snakes aren't that much removed from the wild since imports and new mutations from the wild keep coming in and constantly bred into the the captive population.

I do agree, however, on that our captive animals do not experience or forced to live as they do in the wild.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Im only going to give one more response on this thread and leave it be after that.

The OPs question is "why cant I put my baby ball in a 40 gallon tank, and where does the idea that they require small spaces when young come from?"

To consider this we need to look at the natural instincts and habitat of a wild hatchling ball python. Pythons do not nurture their young. After the leave the egg they are on their own, and are a very inviting meal to a LOT of predators. For a ball python to survive very long in the wild (this pretty much applies to any non nurtured babies, but snakes and lizards especially) the number one most important thing is to protect itself from predators. This takes priority over everything else. Food, water, temperature, everything. Hatchling mentality is "dont get eaten no matter what. Ill focus on that other stuff after im sure nothing will eat me." So if you keep a hatchling ball python in an environment that keeps it constantly on gaurd for predators and unsuccessfully attempting to locate a more secure location, it wont eat because it hasn't met the basic instinct of "safety first." An all glass top opening display aquarium of any size does not do a particularly good job of meeting this safety first requirement. The difference between a small opaque tub in a rack and a 40+ gallon display aquarium, to the snake, is the difference between being buried deep in a rocky crevice, rodent burrow, or termite mound, and being stuck in the middle of an open field with nothing but one single rock to hide under. That hand reaching down on it from above even looks a heck of a lot like a bird of prey's talons swooping down for a meal.

As a snake gets older it has a couple of things going for it that make it more likely to thrive in that same glass aquarium. It has grown significantly, so it has many fewer predators to worry about. It also has years of experience with the fact that in its captive environment there are no predators, and that hand that looked like death a few years ago looks more like the delivery of a meal or an opportunity to explore some new territory.

Pythons are also masters of conservation of energy. They move only as much as is neccicary to meet their basic requirements for safety, food, water, temperature, and mating later in life. In nature they can, and will, travel significant distances in order to satisfy those basic requirements. But they will not cover any significant ground just for the fun of it. If their basic requirements are comfortably satisfied in their environment they have absolutely no incentive to leave, and wont.

Ive been keeping a small number of snakes, both BPs and others, for years. At one point or another ive used every manner of glass aquarium, tub, rack, DIY cage, and PVC cage. There is a reason all my snakes are now in either racks with tubs or solid sided front opening enclosures. They just work better for a million reasons, the level of security that the snake experiences is very high on that list.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk 2