TOFFEE Ball PROVEN

Rabernet.

On my screen it says your an ADMIN and also Waltah a MOD and a bunch of others.So I just generalized ADMIN/MODS (im not saying you two, just giving an example of the first 2 names that I saw that wasnt JUDY'S)...I also said HINTING a mistake.. I didnt say Judy called so-n-so a liar. My message was not directed at any one personally (Judy, You, or Waltah). Its only purpose was to show that almost 7 pages of post were almost all negative. Obviously, not every post!!! There are a bunch of other supporters!!! Im sure a bunch of people feel the way I do. (maybe maybe not). There were a bunch of people that also said. "they'd like to see pics as it grows" which I FULL agree with!!! I think comments like those are what helps the community to grow... not comments like "You got scammed"

P.S. Im not going to reread the 7 other pages to find the exact quotes or who the posters are.

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Originally Posted by adogunnaike

Its only purpose was to show that almost 7 pages of post were almost all negative. Obviously, not every post!!! There are a bunch of other supporters!!!

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Until it looks like the toffee not many people are going to believe it, that is how I feel and I am sure many other of the 'Pessimists' feel as well.

No negativity just disbelief as someone else said earlier. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

Until it looks like the toffee not many people are going to believe it, that is how I feel and I am sure many other of the 'Pessimists' feel as well.

No negativity just disbelief as someone else said earlier. :gj:

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I totally understand/agree with that... Thats the same way I felt!!! I just didnt like all the other comments about the OP needing to get his money back, return the snake, or even THATS NOT A TOFFEE. Esp, since theres not another baby toffee to compair it to. I could understand if other pictures show toffee babies looking a lot different.

Whoops See below.

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Originally Posted by adogunnaike

How many of us (SMALL TIME BREEDERS) could wait a few months, watch the color change...then post... "Here is the first Toffee... Look how the color changes over time"... realistically most (including myself) cant.

Nobody (you, me, or the next breeder) wants to hear that their 'prize project' must be wrong by people who have no idea what they're talking about... A few weeks ago I was reading a post from some saying that Justin's Lavender babies are regular albinos, because they have no purple. Its easy to mistake a baby high contrast albino and a Lavender...

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If it upsets you then maybe you aren't taking everyone's level of experience into consideration? Justin is a good friend of mine and he is well aware that as hatchlings someone could easily misidentify the Lavender Albino to be a "regular" albino. That said how many people do you think could pick out a butter from a Lesser Platinum? Or a Mocha from a Normal, or a Het. Russo from a Normal? How about a real tough one; An adult axanthic that has browned out compared to a normal?

If this upsets you then you may want to re-evaluate how you perceive opinions. As far as everyone saying that his "Toffee" looks like a regular Albino, well can you blame them!? Look at it! I would NEVER in a million years guess that is a "Toffee"! And having seen Candy Balls in person, it makes it even more difficult to imagine that.

As myself and others have said before, Congrats to the OP I really hope that I'm wrong and that he does in fact have the first CB Toffee, especially in Canada, but until the pretty little bugger ages, no one will know.

Your right...Ill just stick to reading messages and keep my comments/ opinions to myself... I noticed that there are a bunch of newbies as well as some old timers here... A lot of the time newbies think they're pro's and try to give breeding advice to other newbies when the dont even have a breeder sized female yet..:taz: makes me laugh... but oh well... Good luck on everyones clutches this season... No hard feelings... :gj: Happy Herpin

here Is the best way i can descride what is going on. The toffee, candys are albinos. But they are albinos that for some reason are able to make small amouts of melanin over time. hence the color change I have seen this in albino turtles I own. There are also other animals that have done this. Another example are lavander albinos they start producing small amounts of melanin which gives them the purple color as they grow.


Easy example
take 5 gallon bucket of white paint open the the can and its white as day. 2 days later add a drop of black paint not much of a differance but add a drop of paint every day in a few months your going to have gray. the animals finally stop changing when you stop adding the drops of black.

We Know that ball pythons develope more melanin as they grow thats why ligth colored or bright colored babys get darker as they grow.

This is my 2 cents take it as you want

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Originally Posted by albinosunlimited

here Is the best way i can descride what is going on. The toffee, candys are albinos. But they are albinos that for some reason are able to make small amouts of melanin over time. hence the color change I have seen this in albino turtles I own. There are also other animals that have done this. Another example are lavander albinos they start producing small amounts of melanin which gives them the purple color as they grow.


Easy example
take 5 gallon bucket of white paint open the the can and its white as day. 2 days later add a drop of black paint not much of a differance but add a drop of paint every day in a few months your going to have gray. the animals finally stop changing when you stop adding the drops of black.

We Know that ball pythons develope more melanin as they grow thats why ligth colored or bright colored babys get darker as they grow.

This is my 2 cents take it as you want

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Though this makes sense genetically, why is it then that all other Toffee or Candy hatchlings that we have had examples of show some sort of this slight melanin production as hatchlings?
See where I'm coming from? I don't see any traces of melanin in that hatchling, which leads me to believe it's just an albino.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

The Candy and Burgundy albino look similar, but the toffee stands out. It has a much different pattern than the other two.

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I agree, if you look at the pictures, the Candy and Burgundy Albino have the same pattern and colour and the Toffee has pretty much the same colour but the pattern is definately different, I don't see a snake that looks like a regular albino changing that drastically.

Maybe it's a form of T+ albino??
T+ is the Caramel Albino, I mean I guess the Toffee could be an albino T+ but then wouldn't it look more like a Caramel Albino rather than the Toffee which has no yellow at all(well the adult doesn't), unless it's possible to have more of the tyrosinase enzyme(T+) than a Caramel Albino

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Originally Posted by adogunnaike

My feathers are all plucked lol... Id be heated if everyone told me my baby toffee is a only a regular albino... and maybe I should call the breeder back to get my money!!! Only because nobody has ever seen a baby TOFFEE


BELIEVE ME... I'M NOT UPSET, I'M NOT GOING TO LOOSE ANY SLEEP, THIS IS MY HOBBY... THIS IS A DEBATE... I'M A DEBATER...ITS JUST WHAT I DO.

I DONT HAVE ANY HARD FEELINGS FOR ANYONE...I WISH EVERYONE LAVENDER ALBINO PIEDS (MY DREAM SNAKE)

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TALKING IN CAPS MAKES A POINT.
Calm down please.

People will simply skip over your post because your trying to yell, which is annoying. But here's the part that got me.

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Only because nobody has ever seen a baby TOFFEE

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Where are you getting that from? If there have been toffees produced, then people have seen the hatchling version as well. I've seen some at shows too.

This is not a debate, because it is far too one sided. Experienced breeders are saying that they see an Albino, not anything else. They provide back-up information with their theory of why it's only an Albino, so please, give us some back up information of why it is a Toffee.
IF you can prove that it is in fact a Toffee, we'd all be very happy to know that it is in fact not an albino. We're not saying "It's an albino!" because that's what we want it to be..
No one is saying that it may not turn out to be an actual Toffee, but by the way it looks and the experience present, that it doesn't look too hopeful.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Though this makes sense genetically, why is it then that all other Toffee or Candy hatchlings that we have had examples of show some sort of this slight melanin production as hatchlings?
See where I'm coming from? I don't see any traces of melanin in that hatchling, which leads me to believe it's just an albino.

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Paul is the only person to show a baby toffee or candy right out of the egg every other picture that has been posted is when the snakes are a few weeks or months old

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

TALKING IN CAPS MAKES A POINT.
Calm down please.

People will simply skip over your post because your trying to yell, which is annoying. But here's the part that got me.

Where are you getting that from? If there have been toffees produced, then people have seen the hatchling version as well. I've seen some at shows too.
This is not a debate, because it is far too one sided. Experienced breeders are saying that they see an Albino, not anything else. They provide back-up information with their theory of why it's only an Albino, so please, give us some back up information of why it is a Toffee.
IF you can prove that it is in fact a Toffee, we'd all be very happy to know that it is in fact not an albino. We're not saying "It's an albino!" because that's what we want it to be..
No one is saying that it may not turn out to be an actual Toffee, but by the way it looks and the experience present, that it doesn't look too hopeful.

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Toffee's haven't been produced yet that's why this is a debate on the OP's picture of an Albino looking snake, unless the Candy is the same as a Toffee, but IMHO there is something different between those two morphs, as far as I know the Urban Python Let 5 het pairs go in 2007 they haven't produced anything from Het x Het pairings and the Toffee x Het pairings didn't prove anything out either the females ended up being to small to produce a clutch

I'll tell you what is TOFFEE.......These golden brown, intensely sweet chunks in my bowl of ice cream.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I'll tell you what is TOFFEE.......These golden brown, intensely sweet chunks in my bowl of ice cream.

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you can only call that Toffee in your ice cream cuz it has been proven, :)

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Originally Posted by Toronto Python Gurus

Toffee's haven't been produced yet that's why this is a debate on the OP's picture of an Albino looking snake, unless the Candy is the same as a Toffee, but IMHO there is something different between those two morphs, as far as I know the Urban Python Let 5 het pairs go in 2007 they haven't produced anything from Het x Het pairings and the Toffee x Het pairings didn't prove anything out either the females ended up being to small to produce a clutch

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Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?

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Nope. They are assuming that it's a recessive trait.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?

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They had the wild-caught that has yet to reproduce. They made hets that they sold with a money back guarantee that they are simple recessive. Thus the entire reason why everyone is skeptical that these are toffees because nobody has EVER seen a toffee hatchling.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?

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The original Toffee was a CH baby that Craig Stewart(Urban Python) got from the USA back in 2005 he got that Toffee upto breeding size and bred it for the first time in 2007. He bred the Toffee male to a bunch of Normal females and that's where the hets came from. Craig then let go of 5 het pairs in 2007(they went to the U.S.A, Europe and Canada), between now and 2007 as far as everyone knows there have only been hets produced, and this year should be the first year that Craig will be able to breed his 2005 Toffee male to the 100% het Toffee females that were not big enough to give him clutches last season.

It is entirely possible that one of the parents from the het toffee clutch was also het albino, and passed it on to both the hets that the OP has.

I am just saying this because if it turns out that the animal produce is an albino, it doesn't mean there was a screwup in the animals the OP was sent, it just means there was an unknown gene in the mix.

All I can say is wow!!!! I apologize for the delayed response to this thread. I have been off with the flu and didn’t see this post until I got back into the office.

I think I need to state a few things for the record but before I do that I want to give a great big congratulation to Paul for proving out the Toffee. It’s a fantastic accomplishment and a huge leap forward for this exciting project. Great job buddy!!!

As the owner of the Toffee I would be lying if I said I wasn’t the least bit envious of Paul right now. As selfish as it may sound I wish I was the one posting those photos particularly considering what we’ve invested both financial and emotionally into this project. It cost us a total of $130,000 USD to acquire the Toffee Ball and when we initially got him into our facility in 2005 he didn’t feed for almost 9 months. Then if that wasn’t enough stress, once we got him established and feeding the 2006 breeding season was upon us and he had absolutely no interest in breeding. I can handle stress well but at this point I was ready to crack, which I think most of you would appreciate.

The only reason I am disclosing all this is because I think it’s important that people realize what goes on behind the scenes in developing a new project. Many of us have heard about these incredible amounts invested into single animals but they are usually passed on through the grapevine and it’s hard to believe it. So when I look at some of the pioneers of the ball python industry like Peter Kahl Reptiles, VPI, NERD, BHB, Ralph Davis Reptiles, Snake Keeper, Outback Reptiles and Reptile Industries to name a few I have a great deal of respect for these individuals . I’m not trying to put myself on their level, all I am trying to say is I can appreciate first hand what some of these guys have gone through. So I think you could imagine the relief we felt when we produced our fist het offspring in 2007. This was one huge milestone for us. We could finally breath normal once again knowing the genetics behind this animal had been passed on. In other words we had moved all of the eggs from one basket.

Initially I wanted to hold back every single animal but due to the financial investment we had into this project we felt that we had to take some of the money off the table and sell a limited number of them. I was confident that the offspring would sell well but we did not expect them to sell as quickly as they did. We completely sold out of the 6 pairs and 3 single males we offered for sale in the matter of a few weeks. A couple pairs went into the US, a few overseas and some in Canada. We later decided to offer another pair for sale, which were purchased by Paul Angelides of the UK. This is the pair that produced Paul’s Toffee babies and the baby pictured within this thread.

The 2007/2008 breeding season had started and unfortunately the Toffee developed a very mild respiratory infection and we didn’t want to put him at risk so we pulled him out of cycling, treated him with antibiotics and wrote the season off. This moved us onto the 2008/2009 breeding season. Some of our het girls from 2007 were growing great and getting big so we figured we would give them a go in early 2009, which we did. Unfortunately none of them took. I can appreciate why some of you may be wondering why we didn’t produce offspring from these girls but if you have any experience with young females you would know that this is not uncommon. However we did produce a few het clutches this season so we were pleased with the overall results. The long and short of it is there are a very, very limited number of these het offspring around and from the results of this years sales, the hets continue to be in high demand. We were taking reservations on females before they had even hatched and I think from what I am about to describe that demand is going to increase even more.

While I was away with the flu a very excited Paul Angelides had contacted and spoken to Paul Begg, one of our team members here at The Urban Python. Paul explained that he had just pipped his four eggs from the 100% Het Toffee X 100% Het Toffee pairing and had revealed two Toffee babies. He explained that they did not look anything like the adult Toffee and were more similar looking to a normal albino but had the Toffee pattern and a bit different hue to them. I was contacted immediately and informed of this and I couldn’t believe it. Finally the project had officially been proved out thanks to Paul. Although I wish it was us that proved it out, Paul is a great guy and very passionate about his snakes so we are genuinely happy for him. I could only imagine what his reaction was when he piped those eggs. I don’t want this post to take away from the credit Paul deserves for proving the Toffee out. This is a huge accomplishment and we are grateful for the results of his efforts. Thanks again buddy!

So this brings us to current day where I was contacted by a friend and asked if I had seen this thread. I explained to him that I was away sick and hadn’t seen anything. I went onto to the forum to see the photos that Paul had posted and I have to say I was as surprised as everyone else. Other than the pattern of the animal looking Toffee, it appears to have the same qualities as a normal T- albino. I was very confused to say the least so I contacted Pete Kahl who obviously owns the Candy. Pete and I had spoken a bunch of times before about the Candy and Toffee. Pete has had the benefit of seeing both of them in person and we are absolutely confident that they are the same morph. They virtually have the same coloration, pattern and were collected in the same area in Benin. They are the same morph.

When I contacted him he knew exactly why I was calling and jokingly said to me, “Were you freakin’ out when you saw the photos of the baby Toffees?” I went on to explain that I was definitely confused and he laughed and said he should have let me stew a little longer.

Approximately 2 months earlier Pete had hatched out two babies that appeared exactly the same as the baby Toffee in the photo that Paul posted. His first thought was these are normal albinos and wondered what the heck was going on. However, they had the same pattern that the adult Candy and Toffee had so he figured that these must be baby Candy’s and they will go through some incredible color change. Well sure enough after the second shed they were starting to change and by the third shed he couldn’t believe what he was seeing. It was evident to him that this morph was even more remarkable than he had initially anticipated. The baby Candies were changing right in front of his eyes and he was blown away with how quickly it was happening. As we all know Pete has been working with reptiles for many, many years and has a great deal of experience. He went on to described that he has never seen anything like this and was excited to explain how this is not only a new morph but how it develops is very different that anything else he’s seen.

He and I couldn’t be more excited about the results of the Candy and the Toffee and what lays ahead for this morph. So for those of you that thought there’s no way this animal will morph out into an animal that looks like the yearling Candy think again because what Paul has posted is in fact a baby Toffee and hopefully he will continue to share his photos as he experiences the incredible ontogenesis of this morph. Man oh man I cannot wait to hatch out Toffee babies and experience this for myself. The thought of witnessing this morphs development is unlike any other Ball Python morph we know of. I will be speaking to Pete to get some photos posted of the color change of his baby Candy’s. Thanks for taking the time to read my long winded post and if anyone has anymore questions please feel free to contact me personally at 905 264-5557.

On another note we will be attending the North American Breeders Conference in Tinley Park next weekend. We have never done a US show before and we hear that this is an awesome show so if you can make it please drop by our booth and to say hi and let’s talk ball pythons. Thanks again and we look forward to seeing you.

Best regards,

Craig Stewart
The Urban Python
Tel: 905 264-5557

Well looks like that settles it.Congrads on hatching the first Toffee Ball!!:gj:
Could you please post pics after each shed so we can witness the change in color?:please:

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Originally Posted by rhachead

well looks like that settles it.congrads on hatching the first toffee ball!!:gj:
Could you please post pics after each shed so we can witness the change in color?:please:

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+1

Thanks for clearing that up Craig!

Congrats Paul, I shall now remove my foot from my mouth!!

Great job buddy!

It's a TOFFEE !

I am happy of this. Just sad I won't be able to buy one until a few years pass probably.

Well, methinks congrats are in order! :D

Please, please, please post pics of these two as they age? I'm anxious to see this color change!

That is proof enough for me. :gj:

Congrats Paul, and of course Urban Python!

It would be neat to take a picture the toffee side-by-side with a regular albino hatchling and see if the difference in their hues shows up on camera. From these pics the white on the toffees looks more pink, not a bright clear white. Pictures can be tricky though.

Very cool project!! One of my favorite morphs for sure.

Cool,:)

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Originally Posted by albinosunlimited

here Is the best way i can descride what is going on. The toffee, candys are albinos. But they are albinos that for some reason are able to make small amouts of melanin over time. hence the color change I have seen this in albino turtles I own. There are also other animals that have done this. Another example are lavander albinos they start producing small amounts of melanin which gives them the purple color as they grow.


Easy example
take 5 gallon bucket of white paint open the the can and its white as day. 2 days later add a drop of black paint not much of a differance but add a drop of paint every day in a few months your going to have gray. the animals finally stop changing when you stop adding the drops of black.

We Know that ball pythons develope more melanin as they grow thats why ligth colored or bright colored babys get darker as they grow.

This is my 2 cents take it as you want

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So it's not a T- or a T+ but more of a T-Meh? :giggle:

Maybe a T~ ?


dr del

Craig, thank you so much for stepping in and giving us such a thorough overview of not only the history and personal side of the Toffee story, but your feelings about these babies as well. I, personally, would like to apologize for our pessimism that dragged you out of your sick bed to have to do that!

It does, indeed, sound like one of the most exciting morph projects to come down the pike in quite some time and I am anxious to see it play out and watch those babies grow.

To Paul...my apologies for being such a "Doubting Thomas" on this one. It's not that I didn't trust YOU...just that my eyes were convinced that they were looking at ordinary albinos. I hope you'll share many more pictures with us as they grow and change. I'll look forward to that dish of crow. :P

Poor Paul, he hatches out a Toffee and most of us say "Uhh...no, that's an albino dude". :oops:

Congrats to both Paul and Craig on the Toffee project! :salute:
Also Paul, plz keep us updated with photo's of how it progresses or better yet, send me the Toffee and I'll take as many free photo's as you want! :D ;)

Wow we might all have to eat our words. Now we just need the time to fly by so we can see his snakes after a few sheds!!! :gj:

Thanks Craig for your updates and sharing your story. Paul everyone knows I hope you continue to send pictures!!!! Im really glad this story was cleared:taz:.

Good on ya paul

Like I said before hope you proved people wrong.

Good luck with this fantastic project .

Also congrats to craig for making it all possible!

James

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Originally Posted by patrick long

maybe the original toffee was bred to an albino, and you got two het albino babies lol

im not trying to be the stick in the mud, but do you have pictures of other toffee babies?

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there are no other toffee babies

Yep, Ive read thru all 14 pages. Still don't believe they are anything more then normal albinos. There is nothing out of the ordinary in regards to their normal albino eyes, and their normal patterns and colors.

I know colors can change... but I don't see how the eyes could possibly change from normal albino eyes to the Toffee eyes. I will definitely keep up with this, and if the color change ever happens, I will be a believer. But until then, they are just plain old albinos.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Yep, Ive read thru all 14 pages. Still don't believe they are anything more then normal albinos. There is nothing out of the ordinary in regards to their normal albino eyes, and their normal patterns and colors.

I know colors can change... but I don't see how the eyes could possibly change from normal albino eyes to the Toffee eyes. I will definitely keep up with this, and if the color change ever happens, I will be a believer. But until then, they are just plain old albinos.

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I would admit that photo looks like an Albino Mike. I don't have an opinion about eye color change? Craig must have been pretty sure about the Toffee's genetics to give that kind of 100% money-back promise. I believe Craig believed in the markers he was seeing in ALL the founding Toffee offspring.

I picked up on the markers from the 07 Het pictures on Craig's website a couple of years ago. I also know someone who has a Het Toffee male and markers are consistent when bred to normals -- 50% of offspring have them.

I have a recessive project I have been working with the last 2 years/holding back lots of girls -- I EXPECT to prove it this spring. ALL of the 45+ hatchlings have the same 5 subtle markers and "LOOK" about them -- regardless of the light/dark color of normal girl that produced them. Can 45 hatchlings all be wrong????

Recessive Hets can display markers if you have entire clutches/mult. babies to compare.

Colors CAN change quickly. :)

The girl on the right is 250 grams in this photo and was the same color as the girl in the middle (after first shed) right after her first shed. The older girl has shed twice since this photo and has colored-up even more. :cool:

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...e_9_636984.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...m_update_1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Yep, Ive read thru all 14 pages. Still don't believe they are anything more then normal albinos. There is nothing out of the ordinary in regards to their normal albino eyes, and their normal patterns and colors.

I know colors can change... but I don't see how the eyes could possibly change from normal albino eyes to the Toffee eyes. I will definitely keep up with this, and if the color change ever happens, I will be a believer. But until then, they are just plain old albinos.

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I see where you could think it's an Albino, but c'mon if Pete Kahl is backing this then I don't know how you could say "No". I know the Toffees and Candies have yet to be bred together to prove compatibility but still we're not talking about Amateurs making random guesses here.

Food for thought: I wonder if the Candy/Toffee are compatible with "regular" albinos. See my idea comes from Retics. Retics have 3 forms of Albino; White Phase, Lavender, and Purple, but they're all compatible. I understand that Lavender Albino and Regular Albinos are not compatible but they look very different as hatchlings and see as how Toffees/Candies apparently don't then maybe they can be reproduced using just Albinos.

Of course it's just a Theory with no evidence to really back it up, but I guess we'll know when someone eventually breeds Toffee/Candy to Albino :).

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Still don't believe they are anything more then normal albinos.

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In no time at all, you'll believe differently. I promise. :gj:

-adam

I believed it all along. I can't wait to see what they turn out like.:rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

In no time at all, you'll believe differently. I promise. :gj:

-adam

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I sure hope so! If that happens, I WANT ONE!!!

Well I was VERY doubtful, but never the less awesome to see!! It'll be very interesting to see how they mature into their colors.

I think next up is definitely testing them against other albinos.

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

Well I was VERY doubtful, but never the less awesome to see!! It'll be very interesting to see how they mature into their colors.

I think next up is definitely testing them against other albinos.

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I wonder if it will play out like the specials or mystics do with the Mojave?

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Originally Posted by Blue Apple Herps

Well I was VERY doubtful, but never the less awesome to see!! It'll be very interesting to see how they mature into their colors.

I think next up is definitely testing them against other albinos.

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x2

It will be sweet to see them colored up.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

I wonder if it will play out like the specials or mystics do with the Mojave?

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They are like that because they are 'diluted' BEL genes.

Man, I'm glad I decided to wait until now to post here. I'm no longer flexible enough to get my foot in my mouth.

Big congrats, Paul! And congrats to Craig, too! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I sure hope so!

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No need to hope, you can count on it. ;)

-adam

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Originally Posted by tonkatoyman

Looking at the above picture the eyes are not red>:gj: of the verified candys

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they are too red, maybe nor bright red but I do a sense of burgundy red tint!! look closer!:rolleyes:

I'll try and get some pics up by the weekend on this thread so keep watching. I'll get the 2 toffee so u can compare as the smaller one is slightly darker and the marked sibling to compare along with the parents hopefully.
Paul

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

They are like that because they are 'diluted' BEL genes.

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Well it sure look like this Toffee gene has something to do with the albino gene. Maybe it is a "diluted" albino gene.

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Well it sure look like this Toffee gene has something to do with the albino gene. Maybe it is a "diluted" albino gene.

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I was thinking the same thing!!! I thought it was some type of diluted lavender mix when i first saw it... It kinda reminded me of Grants' (lavenderalbino.com)
Genevieve (faded female lavender albino). I cant find any pictures to save my life lol