TOFFEE Ball PROVEN

[albinosunlimited]

Though this makes sense genetically, why is it then that all other Toffee or Candy hatchlings that we have had examples of show some sort of this slight melanin production as hatchlings?
See where I'm coming from? I don't see any traces of melanin in that hatchling, which leads me to believe it's just an albino.

Paul is the only person to show a baby toffee or candy right out of the egg every other picture that has been posted is when the snakes are a few weeks or months old

[Toronto Python Gurus]

TALKING IN CAPS MAKES A POINT.
Calm down please.

People will simply skip over your post because your trying to yell, which is annoying. But here's the part that got me.

Where are you getting that from? If there have been toffees produced, then people have seen the hatchling version as well. I've seen some at shows too.
This is not a debate, because it is far too one sided. Experienced breeders are saying that they see an Albino, not anything else. They provide back-up information with their theory of why it's only an Albino, so please, give us some back up information of why it is a Toffee.
IF you can prove that it is in fact a Toffee, we'd all be very happy to know that it is in fact not an albino. We're not saying "It's an albino!" because that's what we want it to be..
No one is saying that it may not turn out to be an actual Toffee, but by the way it looks and the experience present, that it doesn't look too hopeful.

Toffee's haven't been produced yet that's why this is a debate on the OP's picture of an Albino looking snake, unless the Candy is the same as a Toffee, but IMHO there is something different between those two morphs, as far as I know the Urban Python Let 5 het pairs go in 2007 they haven't produced anything from Het x Het pairings and the Toffee x Het pairings didn't prove anything out either the females ended up being to small to produce a clutch

[twistedtails]

I'll tell you what is TOFFEE.......These golden brown, intensely sweet chunks in my bowl of ice cream.

[Toronto Python Gurus]

I'll tell you what is TOFFEE.......These golden brown, intensely sweet chunks in my bowl of ice cream.

you can only call that Toffee in your ice cream cuz it has been proven,

[blackcrystal22]

Toffee's haven't been produced yet that's why this is a debate on the OP's picture of an Albino looking snake, unless the Candy is the same as a Toffee, but IMHO there is something different between those two morphs, as far as I know the Urban Python Let 5 het pairs go in 2007 they haven't produced anything from Het x Het pairings and the Toffee x Het pairings didn't prove anything out either the females ended up being to small to produce a clutch

Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?

[waltah!]

Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?

Nope. They are assuming that it's a recessive trait.

[Turbo Serpent]

Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?

They had the wild-caught that has yet to reproduce. They made hets that they sold with a money back guarantee that they are simple recessive. Thus the entire reason why everyone is skeptical that these are toffees because nobody has EVER seen a toffee hatchling.

[Toronto Python Gurus]

Didn't the Urban Python produce Toffees or did they just have wild-caught animals and had never seen the hatchlings?

The original Toffee was a CH baby that Craig Stewart(Urban Python) got from the USA back in 2005 he got that Toffee upto breeding size and bred it for the first time in 2007. He bred the Toffee male to a bunch of Normal females and that's where the hets came from. Craig then let go of 5 het pairs in 2007(they went to the U.S.A, Europe and Canada), between now and 2007 as far as everyone knows there have only been hets produced, and this year should be the first year that Craig will be able to breed his 2005 Toffee male to the 100% het Toffee females that were not big enough to give him clutches last season.

[mainbutter]

It is entirely possible that one of the parents from the het toffee clutch was also het albino, and passed it on to both the hets that the OP has.

I am just saying this because if it turns out that the animal produce is an albino, it doesn't mean there was a screwup in the animals the OP was sent, it just means there was an unknown gene in the mix.

[The Urban Python]

All I can say is wow!!!! I apologize for the delayed response to this thread. I have been off with the flu and didn’t see this post until I got back into the office.

I think I need to state a few things for the record but before I do that I want to give a great big congratulation to Paul for proving out the Toffee. It’s a fantastic accomplishment and a huge leap forward for this exciting project. Great job buddy!!!

As the owner of the Toffee I would be lying if I said I wasn’t the least bit envious of Paul right now. As selfish as it may sound I wish I was the one posting those photos particularly considering what we’ve invested both financial and emotionally into this project. It cost us a total of $130,000 USD to acquire the Toffee Ball and when we initially got him into our facility in 2005 he didn’t feed for almost 9 months. Then if that wasn’t enough stress, once we got him established and feeding the 2006 breeding season was upon us and he had absolutely no interest in breeding. I can handle stress well but at this point I was ready to crack, which I think most of you would appreciate.

The only reason I am disclosing all this is because I think it’s important that people realize what goes on behind the scenes in developing a new project. Many of us have heard about these incredible amounts invested into single animals but they are usually passed on through the grapevine and it’s hard to believe it. So when I look at some of the pioneers of the ball python industry like Peter Kahl Reptiles, VPI, NERD, BHB, Ralph Davis Reptiles, Snake Keeper, Outback Reptiles and Reptile Industries to name a few I have a great deal of respect for these individuals . I’m not trying to put myself on their level, all I am trying to say is I can appreciate first hand what some of these guys have gone through. So I think you could imagine the relief we felt when we produced our fist het offspring in 2007. This was one huge milestone for us. We could finally breath normal once again knowing the genetics behind this animal had been passed on. In other words we had moved all of the eggs from one basket.

Initially I wanted to hold back every single animal but due to the financial investment we had into this project we felt that we had to take some of the money off the table and sell a limited number of them. I was confident that the offspring would sell well but we did not expect them to sell as quickly as they did. We completely sold out of the 6 pairs and 3 single males we offered for sale in the matter of a few weeks. A couple pairs went into the US, a few overseas and some in Canada. We later decided to offer another pair for sale, which were purchased by Paul Angelides of the UK. This is the pair that produced Paul’s Toffee babies and the baby pictured within this thread.

The 2007/2008 breeding season had started and unfortunately the Toffee developed a very mild respiratory infection and we didn’t want to put him at risk so we pulled him out of cycling, treated him with antibiotics and wrote the season off. This moved us onto the 2008/2009 breeding season. Some of our het girls from 2007 were growing great and getting big so we figured we would give them a go in early 2009, which we did. Unfortunately none of them took. I can appreciate why some of you may be wondering why we didn’t produce offspring from these girls but if you have any experience with young females you would know that this is not uncommon. However we did produce a few het clutches this season so we were pleased with the overall results. The long and short of it is there are a very, very limited number of these het offspring around and from the results of this years sales, the hets continue to be in high demand. We were taking reservations on females before they had even hatched and I think from what I am about to describe that demand is going to increase even more.

While I was away with the flu a very excited Paul Angelides had contacted and spoken to Paul Begg, one of our team members here at The Urban Python. Paul explained that he had just pipped his four eggs from the 100% Het Toffee X 100% Het Toffee pairing and had revealed two Toffee babies. He explained that they did not look anything like the adult Toffee and were more similar looking to a normal albino but had the Toffee pattern and a bit different hue to them. I was contacted immediately and informed of this and I couldn’t believe it. Finally the project had officially been proved out thanks to Paul. Although I wish it was us that proved it out, Paul is a great guy and very passionate about his snakes so we are genuinely happy for him. I could only imagine what his reaction was when he piped those eggs. I don’t want this post to take away from the credit Paul deserves for proving the Toffee out. This is a huge accomplishment and we are grateful for the results of his efforts. Thanks again buddy!

So this brings us to current day where I was contacted by a friend and asked if I had seen this thread. I explained to him that I was away sick and hadn’t seen anything. I went onto to the forum to see the photos that Paul had posted and I have to say I was as surprised as everyone else. Other than the pattern of the animal looking Toffee, it appears to have the same qualities as a normal T- albino. I was very confused to say the least so I contacted Pete Kahl who obviously owns the Candy. Pete and I had spoken a bunch of times before about the Candy and Toffee. Pete has had the benefit of seeing both of them in person and we are absolutely confident that they are the same morph. They virtually have the same coloration, pattern and were collected in the same area in Benin. They are the same morph.

When I contacted him he knew exactly why I was calling and jokingly said to me, “Were you freakin’ out when you saw the photos of the baby Toffees?” I went on to explain that I was definitely confused and he laughed and said he should have let me stew a little longer.

Approximately 2 months earlier Pete had hatched out two babies that appeared exactly the same as the baby Toffee in the photo that Paul posted. His first thought was these are normal albinos and wondered what the heck was going on. However, they had the same pattern that the adult Candy and Toffee had so he figured that these must be baby Candy’s and they will go through some incredible color change. Well sure enough after the second shed they were starting to change and by the third shed he couldn’t believe what he was seeing. It was evident to him that this morph was even more remarkable than he had initially anticipated. The baby Candies were changing right in front of his eyes and he was blown away with how quickly it was happening. As we all know Pete has been working with reptiles for many, many years and has a great deal of experience. He went on to described that he has never seen anything like this and was excited to explain how this is not only a new morph but how it develops is very different that anything else he’s seen.

He and I couldn’t be more excited about the results of the Candy and the Toffee and what lays ahead for this morph. So for those of you that thought there’s no way this animal will morph out into an animal that looks like the yearling Candy think again because what Paul has posted is in fact a baby Toffee and hopefully he will continue to share his photos as he experiences the incredible ontogenesis of this morph. Man oh man I cannot wait to hatch out Toffee babies and experience this for myself. The thought of witnessing this morphs development is unlike any other Ball Python morph we know of. I will be speaking to Pete to get some photos posted of the color change of his baby Candy’s. Thanks for taking the time to read my long winded post and if anyone has anymore questions please feel free to contact me personally at 905 264-5557.

On another note we will be attending the North American Breeders Conference in Tinley Park next weekend. We have never done a US show before and we hear that this is an awesome show so if you can make it please drop by our booth and to say hi and let’s talk ball pythons. Thanks again and we look forward to seeing you.

Best regards,

Craig Stewart
The Urban Python
Tel: 905 264-5557