Genetic "flaws" associated with various morphs?

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Originally Posted by rbchesapeakeball

Where did Shimmer go?

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The dude only had 19 posts...drop in troll?

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

so do super cinnys always have that concave shape to the face, or do some have "normal" looking heads?

Does it just look different, or is it something that causes issues for them?

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perhaps alby can shed some light on the the cinny duckbill

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

LLL is a broker. they have ads on kingsnake all the time saying we will buy your offspring. they don't breed in the least. Ive herd many bad things about Clark, just check the BOI on fauna. and i wouldn't hessitate to buy from BHB!

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I wouldn't hesitate to buy from BHB either, but I would also by from Bob Clark.
I have a male fire from him that is great! He has only been kind and helpful to
me! In fact I am about to receive a 2nd ball python from him. I also haven't found 1 bad thing on the BOI about him.

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Originally Posted by BallPythons9

I wouldn't hesitate to buy from BHB either, but I would also by from Bob Clark.
I have a male fire from him that is great! He has only been kind and helpful to
me! In fact I am about to receive a 2nd ball python from him. I also haven't found 1 bad thing on the BOI about him.

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My het Pieds came from Bob and they proved out. I would certainly purchase from him again.

He's always been helpful and ethical.:)

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Originally Posted by broadude

My het Pieds came from Bob and they proved out. I would certainly purchase from him again.

He's always been helpful and ethical.:)

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Good to hear, and great your hets proved out! Bob has always seemed very professional to me!
Has anyone here actually had a bad experience with him THEMSELVES?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If you have had a transaction with Brian that wasn't resolved to your satisfaction, feel free to share that with others in our feedback section. But this thread is not the place to make unsubstantiated claims of "problems" with them based on what you've "heard".

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I would like to take this opportunity to make a statement that I have visited the BHB facility and was allowed to look where I wanted to look and make my own pick of a snake to purchase, which I did. I don't know where you could find a larger group of snakes to choose from or where you would be treated any better. Many others on this site have had the same experience.

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

I would like to take this opportunity to make a statement that I have visited the BHB facility and was allowed to look where I wanted to look and make my own pick of a snake to purchase, which I did. I don't know where you could find a larger group of snakes to choose from or where you would be treated any better. Many others on this site have had the same experience.

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Brian is great! :)

you guys are right. i did a search again and i made a mistake. ed clark is the one who had some issues with shipping animals packed with parasites. bob clark has no bad posts on his name.

ive never dealt with either of them.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

you guys are right. i did a search again and i made a mistake. ed clark is the one who had some issues with shipping animals packed with parasites. bob clark has no bad posts on his name.

ive never dealt with either of them.

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I'd highly recommend good ol ed clark.

If you want sick parasite ridden animals that he may or may not have produced, may or may not have medicated, may or may not have fed and may or may not have any recollection of selling to you.

Oh yeah, he's fantastic.

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Originally Posted by nixer

perhaps alby can shed some light on the the cinny duckbill

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I am starting to feel (as many other breeders do) that there never was a problem with the noses on Super Cinnamons and Super Black Pastels. I feel it is an optical illusion caused by the dark head color of the animal. This post has degenerated into "An" (I like Brian, I don’t) type of thread so I will start a new post about it sometime in the near future so the information doesn’t get lost in the shuffle.:gj:

I hope everyone has a Very Merry Christmas.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

you guys are right. i did a search again and i made a mistake. ed clark is the one who had some issues with shipping animals packed with parasites. bob clark has no bad posts on his name.

ive never dealt with either of them.

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for this reason you shouldnt be posting any experiences that you have read about them. let the customers who have actually dealt with them feel the responsibility to speak up.


anyways, a question:

if trainwreck spiders can produce regular spiders and regular spiders can produce trainwrecks i would assume that the degree of wobble or spin that the offspring may experience is a random occurrence.

non-kinked caramels can produce kinked caramels so if kinked caramels are bred to each other is there a higher chance that the offspring will also be kinked?

if kinking in caramels is random like the degree of spin and wobble in spiders and the degree of white displayed in piebalds then shouldnt it not matter if you were to breed kinked caramels as you would have similar chances of getting non kinked offspring as you would with getting regular spider offspring by breeding trainkwreck spiders?

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Originally Posted by bigballs

for this reason you shouldnt be posting any experiences that you have read about them. let the customers who have actually dealt with them feel the responsibility to speak up.


anyways, a question:

if trainwreck spiders can produce regular spiders and regular spiders can produce trainwrecks i would assume that the degree of wobble or spin that the offspring may experience is a random occurrence.

non-kinked caramels can produce kinked caramels so if kinked caramels are bred to each other is there a higher chance that the offspring will also be kinked?

if kinking in caramels is random like the degree of spin and wobble in spiders and the degree of white displayed in piebalds then shouldnt it not matter if you were to breed kinked caramels as you would have similar chances of getting non kinked offspring as you would with getting regular spider offspring by breeding trainkwreck spiders?

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Julian,

I'm not sure if the kinking can be compared to the randomness of spider wobbling severity and pied white. I believe that it is more genetic, and so I personally wouldn't breed a kinked animal or one that came from a clutch that expressed kinks.

Anyone who has worked with caramels, can you comment on it?

[QUOTE=bigballs;943163]for this reason you shouldnt be posting any experiences that you have read about them. let the customers who have actually dealt with them feel the responsibility to speak up.[QUOTE]


very true...thats what the BOI is for.

IMHO I agree that it looks like inbreeding is not the cause of kinking in caramels or even the problems with super cinnamon/black pastel.

RDR stated once that about half the imported caramels where kinked. If the kinking where caused by something other than the caramel mutation its self surely by now someone would have outbred enough to create a line without the problem. Initially trying to cull kinking out was a good idea and still might find some further mutation or some combination of other genes to get around the problem but I don't think it's going to be nearly as effective as it would have been if the kinking where caused by a 2nd gene and passed on by inbreeding which most seem to think. I suppose it could even be a closely linked 2nd gene where breeding hets might break the link but it seems more likely to me that whatever chemical abnormality the mutation causes both makes the caramel appearance and gives caramels a strong tendency to kink. At this point maybe we should be looking at environmental factors that might influence which caramels kink badly and which don't as a way to work around the problem.

With the super cinnamon/black pastel I've yet to hear good confirmation that breeding unrelated animals has helped with the problem. There was one poster on kingsnake recently that claimed it had but his evidence was based on seeing more good supers lately which could be the same odds as all along but just with more players now. I'd like to hear comments from people actually producing large numbers of supers as to what percentages are like and if they are seeing anything to improve those odds. The one very limited experience I have is seeing a clutch briefly a couple years ago with two supers. One was kinked and duck billed and the other looked fine to me but the breeder thought it had a little duck bill. You don't hear much about the kinking but I understand that is also common in the super cinnamon/black pastel. Few are willing to talk about problems or show pictures of deformed animals so it's really hard to get a feel for how common they are. I was told that the parents of these two where from unrelated lines but I don't remember the lines or if one was a black pastel. Weren’t the first two supers from the black pastels? I remember seeing comments from people who had seen them at a show that they had considerable snoot problems. But again, some seem much better and possibly perfect so if we could find the variable perhaps it could be used to greatly reduce the problem even if the tendency is part of the mutation like I suspect and can’t actually be outbred.

How many possible homozygous spiders have been produced and bred out is something I would love to know. NERD has posted information like "enough" to know there isn't a visually different super and that they didn't notice any increased incidence of bad eggs. I did hear from TSK that they are breeding spider X spider starting I think it was in 2007. I don't have access to the details right now but seems like it was several clutches and they didn't report noticing any different offspring. They did report a number of small eggs that didn't hatch that was close to 25% but the sample size wasn't big enough to prove that wasn't just a typical rate of duds. I believe they intended to breed spider X spider again in 2008 but I haven't seen if they did and of course as pointed out testing all the possible homozygous animals would be a big undertaking even once they are grown. I've also heard the rumor of someone having a proven homozygous spider but that bags the question as why they are unwilling to come forward with the animal.

Bottom line, I think spiders our outbred enough with relatively few attempts at inbreeding to produce a homozygous spider that the wobble almost has to be an example of a sporadic side effect of the mutation it's self and if spiders prove that possible then why couldn't it also be the case for caramel and super cinnamon/black pastel? Sure in one case you are talking hets and in the others homozygous but it seems like sporadic expression can happen in either.

My super cinny is perfect. You have to see solid colored balls in person sometimes their heads look weird without the pattern.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...0/IMG_2120.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

on his site he shows a albino with a pretty bad duckbill and it states that it was kept alive. for him this would be a less expensive animal.

again i should state that im in no way defending ralph or anything. im just saying i say the kinked carmel video and a post on his stie about the duckbill albino.

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Just because he is keeping an animal alive does not mean that he is keeping the animal. How do we know that he is not selling them for less?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I certainly dont see a need to cull an animal that lives, eats, poops and sheds like the rest of my animals, however I do wonder when these deformities start to hurt the animal, and when it is no longer humane to keep them alive. How could I tell that the animal was in pain?

That's my whole view on it, luckily I have never had to deal with the task of deciding what is best for a deformed or sick animal that can't express it's unease.

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I have cull two hatchlings. It was a hard decision, but one was severely deformed, and the other was born with no eyes. I chock it up to a power outage while they were incubating. I hope I will never have to make that decision again, but it is always a possibility every year.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

you guys are right. i did a search again and i made a mistake. ed clark is the one who had some issues with shipping animals packed with parasites. bob clark has no bad posts on his name.

ive never dealt with either of them.

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Man, I did also. I am sorry to Bob Clark. It was Ed Clark that I was referring too. I have never heard anything negative about Bob Clark, but I have about Ed.

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Originally Posted by Albey

I am starting to feel (as many other breeders do) that there never was a problem with the noses on Super Cinnamons and Super Black Pastels. I feel it is an optical illusion caused by the dark head color of the animal.

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The duckbills I've seen both in person and in pictures were NOT an visual illusion. The snakes were very tweeked. If it were a visual illusion, all Supper Cinny's would look that way, but the fact that normal looking ones do exist invalidates the visual illusion therory.

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Originally Posted by Slim

The duckbills I've seen both in person and in pictures were NOT an visual illusion. The snakes were very tweeked. If it were a visual illusion, all Supper Cinny's would look that way, but the fact that normal looking ones do exist invalidates the visual illusion therory.

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I am sorry but I don’t believe you, and I disagree with you whole-heartedly. Show me these pictures or direct me to the animals that you say look like that.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/silbul08_1rdr9.jpg

hey Albey do you need my address :D

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Originally Posted by Albey

I am sorry but I don’t believe you, and I disagree with you whole-heartedly. Show me these pictures or direct me to the animals that you say look like that.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images/silbul08_1rdr9.jpg

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This one short of looks likes a duck-bill as well. But its head isn’t black. Do you believe that the illusion can also apply for snakes with white heads?

http://ballroompythonssouth.com/cata...2c7c041f6af960

I didn't ask to take any pictures of the two outbred sibling supers I saw but one of them definitely had some nose problems along with the kinks. I don't know how common it is but the ones people are more willing to post photos of are probably the ones with little to no problem. The other one looked good to me but like I said the breeder thought it looked a little off too. I suppose the way to get to the bottom of the less obvious defects would be with some actual caliper measurements maybe of ratio of nose width to head length or something like that and see how it varies between normal, cinnamon/black pastel, and super cinnamon/black pastel siblings. I wouldn't expect a small amount of duckbilling to be a big deal but it sounds like some of the more extreme examples and the kinked ones are a possibility you need to consider when breeding for supers.

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Originally Posted by shimmer

Don't buy from BHB. I have seen and heard way to many problems with this company. They are like the Walmart of BP breeders and I personally would never buy from them. Ralph Davis, LLLReptile, and Mike Wilbanks/Bob Clark are all very good breeders. Ralph only does phone orders which shows he really does care about his animals. Don't Buy from Petco or Petsmart they get their stock from Rainbow Exotics and other Bad Breeders that often have bad breeding and caring conditions and practices.

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I bought a really healthy and beautiful spider from BHB. It ate within the first 5 hours of being at my house. Thats after being in a box for longer than 24 hours. I got my gtp from LLLReptile, and it had tons of mites, and a very large lump on its chest near its heart. What a hassle. I have never heard of any complaints from customers of BHB. They are Going to be one of the only breeders that I buy from, from now on. You have no idea what you are talking about.:colbert:

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Originally Posted by pythontricker

I bought a really healthy and beautiful spider from BHB. It ate within the first 5 hours of being at my house. Thats after being in a box for longer than 24 hours. I got my gtp from LLLReptile, and it had tons of mites, and a very large lump on its chest near its heart. What a hassle. I have never heard of any complaints from customers of BHB. They are Going to be one of the only breeders that I buy from, from now on. You have no idea what you are talking about.:colbert:

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People have to stop acting like they are in high school and trying to stick up for someone in a popularity contest.
You have no right to tell someone they have no idea what they are talking about. Do you have firsthand knowledge of every single transaction BHB or anyone else has ever taken part in? Of course not.
I am not saying anything negative about BHB but for you to come into a discussion and try to negate someone's opinion just because YOU haven't had a bad experience with the person makes you look like a moron that is just trying to suck up to a big breeder. Send them a friend request if you want to be their buddy so bad.
-Steven

imma go out and say this much ive heard all sorts of stories about all sorts of breeders big and small. im not going to get into that, but i have dealt with quite a few of them personally. im sure with so many snakes and sales your sure to have an issue every now and then.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I didn't ask to take any pictures of the two outbred sibling supers I saw but one of them definitely had some nose problems along with the kinks. I don't know how common it is but the ones people are more willing to post photos of are probably the ones with little to no problem. The other one looked good to me but like I said the breeder thought it looked a little off too. I suppose the way to get to the bottom of the less obvious defects would be with some actual caliper measurements maybe of ratio of nose width to head length or something like that and see how it varies between normal, cinnamon/black pastel, and super cinnamon/black pastel siblings. I wouldn't expect a small amount of duckbilling to be a big deal but it sounds like some of the more extreme examples and the kinked ones are a possibility you need to consider when breeding for supers.

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Randy --

In addition to measuring, maybe an impression of clay, wax or putty?? Everybody has heard theories and opinion about the super Blacks and Cinny's.. What I have gathered from the "they committee" is that Ians Black x Black have normal face. Also, his line of Black Pastel crossed with any line of Cinny will look good. Although, Albey hatched some Graziani Cinnys that looked good. Hardly scientific. ;) From the pics I have seen, the Super Black Pied looks to have a perfect face. Only time and a lot more breeding will tell I guess????

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Originally Posted by Albey

I am sorry but I don’t believe you, and I disagree with you whole-heartedly. Show me these pictures or direct me to the animals that you say look like that.

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I'm sorry, but you don't have to believe me, and disagreements make the world go around, whole-heartedly, and other wise.

Since you asked:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi...pythons_07.asp

Clutch Number 2...last pic on the right. You telling me this is a visual illusion?

I'm a Targeteer...I interpret images for a living...that is no illusion. Using the picture on the far left in that row I did a simple photo scale reciprical measurement. Measuring the width of the Super's nose with those of the two Cinny's shows that the Super's nose is, on average, 3.4mm wider at the widest part than the Cinny's at the widest part. In addition, using indirect ratio measurement, the Super's nose is .9mm taller than the two Cinny's on average. The combination of these two differences in width and height are what give it the duckbill look....not an illusion, a tweeked BP.

And before you ask, I checked my measurments against 3 other pictures showing multiple BP's in the same frame (constant photo scale) and all their measurements came out to within .2mm of eachother...well with in standard deviation error perimeters.

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Originally Posted by Slim

I'm sorry, but you don't have to believe me, and disagreements make the world go around, whole-heartedly, and other wise.

Since you asked:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi...pythons_07.asp

Clutch Number 2...last pic on the right. You telling me this is a visual illusion?

I'm a Targeteer...I interpret images for a living...that is no illusion. Using the picture on the far left in that row I did a simple photo scale reciprical measurement. Measuring the width of the Super's nose with those of the two Cinny's shows that the Super's nose is, on average, 3.4mm wider at the widest part than the Cinny's at the widest part. In addition, using indirect ratio measurement, the Super's nose is .9mm taller than the two Cinny's on average. The combination of these two differences in width and height are what give it the duckbill look....not an illusion, a tweeked BP.

And before you ask, I checked my measurments against 3 other pictures showing multiple BP's in the same frame (constant photo scale) and all their measurements came out to within .2mm of eachother...well with in standard deviation error perimeters.

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This is exactly why I challenged you on that. It is Human Nature for us to think someone that we respect words are true. When a Ball Python breeder of the caliber of Kevin McCurley, Tracy and Dave Barker, or Ralph Davis state something everyone takes it as the absolute truth. Ralph Davis was one of the earliest breeders to come out and declare a problem with the Super Black Pastel and Super Cinnamons. He states so in the link you have posted and has also posted like information on his Journal Pages. A lot of people have read this information you included. I think this is affecting your opinion. The fact that you evaluate photographs for a living makes it harder for me to believe you do. I look at the pictures at the link you are referring to and once again I am sorry but I do not see any problem with the Super Cinny in question.

As far as that goes Ralph Davis may be changing his original opinion also. When I hatched out my Silver Bullet (Super Cinnamon/Pastel) one of the first persons I sent the pictures to was Ralph. I asked him if he thought there was any problem with the nose on him. In case you do not know Ralph personally he likes to screw with you so this response was to be expected - “looks great Albey..........but if you can't see that he has the classic "platypus face"...........well...........your BLIND!! LOL........a big GRATS!!.............I love the pics of it while still in the egg. What makes them look so weird is that the head looks elongated and the cheeks not full enough...........it's an optical illusion”.

Here is said picture in egg.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...r3.30.08_2.jpg

How many of you actually own a super cinny or super cinny cross. Not alot of you and I know that for sure! Both me and Albey have shown that they do not have deformities like crazy. Their may have been a few documented cases but there is not enough to call it a morph trait. Sometime when I open the super cinnys tub his head looks odd its an illusion! Take a normal ball python and photoshop it a solid black color it distorts the head.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...0/IMG_2123.jpg

Look ma no duckbill!

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

So since I've been bit by the snake bug, I've been trying to plan what to get for my next snake or two..

I'm a little curious about some of the oddities encountered with some morphs, and what ones might look pretty but I might just want to stay away from, for now at least.

So I've read about spiders and spider combos, and the spinning that they do. Does this weird anyone out the way it weirds me out? Is there anyone here who doesn't keep spiders because of it? Also, what is the deal with no super spiders, do the super spider eggs go bad? Is the spider gene fatal when homozygous?

Also I've heard about "failure to thrive" for super womas(pearls? right?). Anyone want to speak more on this?

I also encountered someone mentioning funny shaped heads in super cinnamons.. what's this about?

If there's anything else I should know about specific morphs and possible problems or oddities associated with them, I'd love for someone to tell me!

Thanks!

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i have a spider and a super cinny. neither i class as deformed. up to now my spider shows no sign of a wobble, my super cinny has the typical super head, and tbh it causes no problems. in fact i would go as far as to say she wouldnt look as gorgeous with a .normal. head, whatever 'normal' is!!!
both strike and eat like trains, not all my others do. is it 'normal' to starve yourself for months i wonder. have heard of the caramel kinks, but never seen these. have also heard albinos have trouble with eyes, but dont own one so wouldnt want to comment. my black pastel shows no sign of having the supers shape nose, but my yellow belly male does. and all are stunning snakes.

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Originally Posted by Albey

This is exactly why I challenged you on that. It is Human Nature for us to think someone that we respect words are true. When a Ball Python breeder of the caliber of Kevin McCurley, Tracy and Dave Barker, or Ralph Davis state something everyone takes it as the absolute truth. Ralph Davis was one of the earliest breeders to come out and declare a problem with the Super Black Pastel and Super Cinnamons. He states so in the link you have posted and has also posted like information on his Journal Pages. A lot of people have read this information you included. I think this is affecting your opinion. The fact that you evaluate photographs for a living makes it harder for me to believe you do. I look at the pictures at the link you are referring to and once again I am sorry but I do not see any problem with the Super Cinny in question.

As far as that goes Ralph Davis may be changing his original opinion also. When I hatched out my Silver Bullet (Super Cinnamon/Pastel) one of the first persons I sent the pictures to was Ralph. I asked him if he thought there was any problem with the nose on him. In case you do not know Ralph personally he likes to screw with you so this response was to be expected - “looks great Albey..........but if you can't see that he has the classic "platypus face"...........well...........your BLIND!! LOL........a big GRATS!!.............I love the pics of it while still in the egg. What makes them look so weird is that the head looks elongated and the cheeks not full enough...........it's an optical illusion”.

Here is said picture in egg.

http://www.albeysreptiles.com/images...r3.30.08_2.jpg

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Originally Posted by aahmn

Here's a good example I found on Exotics by Nature's website showing photos from Daytona 07. If you look at the link and page down, there is a group of super cinnamon photos. A good example can be seen in the head shot with the white background where you can clearly see the concave head shape. It's also easy to compare the profile with the photo above it where the snake's head is pretty much in the same position.

http://www.ballpythonmorphs.com/07daytonaphotos.html

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If you check the site above, you can clearly see the duck-bill. Compare the pictures of the supers to others. It is very noticeable. Personally, I don't mind the duck bill thing. I think it makes them even more special, but I do not deny that some to have the duck bill.

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Originally Posted by Albey

The fact that you evaluate photographs for a living makes it harder for me to believe you do. I look at the pictures at the link you are referring to and once again I am sorry but I do not see any problem with the Super Cinny in question.

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I can't tell if you misspoke in your first sentence:

1) Because it's not a gramatically correct enough sentence for me to interpret your meaning.

2) Because if you ARE trying to say that you can't believe the truth of what I'm stating about the pictures because I mensurate photos for a living, that's absurd.

I gave you the measurements I took, and povided you with the method by which I took them. I'm not looking at the picutres, I'm measuring the pictures. If you choose not to believe me, I would offer the following suggestions:

1) You can go get 24 years of mensuration experience, take your own measurements, and we can discuss the results as peers.

2) You can continue to let your eyes and heart fool you.

If you would like to continue to believe that Super Cinnys aren't showing up with abnormal snouts, that's your call. It's not my job to change your mind, I'm just presenting the facts of the measurements I took.

If you would like to continue to believe that Super Cinnys aren't showing up with abnormal snouts, that's your call. It's not my job to change your mind, I'm just presenting the facts of the measurements I took.
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Slim


i wouldnt call them 'abnormal', they give the supers a real 'noble' look i think. and if it were bent backwards so stopping them breathing, that WOULD be abnormal. this causes no side effects whats so ever, so i think can be considered 'normal' to this morph. and an absolutely gorgeous morph it is, along with the spiders.
sorry i cant work out how to post pics, or i would let you see her.

The stories of deformed snouts go back to the original two supers (Gulf Coast?). I'd really like to hear from someone who has produced a good number of super cinnamon/black pastel and get an idea on percentages. I've no doubt that you can find and buy supers that have normal or at least near normal snouts. It's been so long I can't remember for sure but I think the breeder of the siblings I saw where one looked fine to me and the other had very obvious snout problems thought the one might have a cleft pallet. I don't remember if he actually opened the mouth and confirmed that. With that and the kinking he was actually thinking of euthanizing the snake (a real shame as both supers where very stunning). I'll ask next time I get a chance to see if he happened to keep it and if so if the deformities appeared to have much effect on that super.

It's sounding like this might be like the spider spinning in that it can be argued if all supers have snout abnormalities (although at least in this case actual measurements could answer that question) or not but it also appears that it is at least so minor in some as to not be any problem to the snake. Although I've not personally seen the extreme spinning spiders I can confirm at least one extreme deformed super cinnamon/black pastel so along with the consistent reports of others I don't doubt that it's a real problem, I just don't know if it's like 50% of them or more like 10% or outside of either of those guesses.

i have seen one spider who had bad 'wobbles'. i have seen 100's who have none at all. i have never heard of a cleft palate in supers. and surely your friends should have been seen by a rep vet before he euthanised(if he indeed did)to make sure it did. as you said he 'thought'.
it really makes me angry when i read people, who probably dont own these snakes, call them deformed. my spider, and any spider i have seen was not deformed, unless you call regular eating a deformity. my super cinny is certainly not deformed, and as i said before my yellow belly has this head, but my black pastel does not. funnily enough both the yb and the sc are prolific feeders too.
maybe the kinks in the caramel should be brought into this, as i would imagine kinks to impair these more. or the albinos eyesight.
it also makes me very angry when i read of people thinking snakes are disposable, that really annoys me.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

Is that ice? HI-YA!!!

(do ninjas break ice?).

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Hmm, i imagined a spider slicing ice while wobbling. I call it, "Snake Drunken Master-fu"

On a side note, i only have one spider, and she does wobble ALOT. Almost to the point where it looks like 'stargazing' but it's kind of cool because at times she'll just sit there and pretend to watch people while staying stretched out and very, very still. I really think she is a secret ninja. It would make sense. Maybe she will become the next spider/batman(woman). Now i'm just confusing things.

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

How many of you actually own a super cinny or super cinny cross. Not alot of you and I know that for sure! Both me and Albey have shown that they do not have deformities like crazy. Their may have been a few documented cases but there is not enough to call it a morph trait. Sometime when I open the super cinnys tub his head looks odd its an illusion! Take a normal ball python and photoshop it a solid black color it distorts the head.

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A FEW documented cases. Does this statement not confirm a genetic flaw?

If not the FEW, what number, exactly, will have to be CONFIRMED before you allow that it is genetic?

I'd also like to know what makes you think that an optical illusion cannot be disproved by measurements. If you say the nose isn't broader than average and measurements prove it is, doesn't that make you a liar? If you're lying, why should anything you say be taken as truth?

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Originally Posted by covah

i have seen one spider who had bad 'wobbles'. i have seen 100's who have none at all. i have never heard of a cleft palate in supers. and surely your friends should have been seen by a rep vet before he euthanised(if he indeed did)to make sure it did. as you said he 'thought'.
it really makes me angry when i read people, who probably dont own these snakes, call them deformed. my spider, and any spider i have seen was not deformed, unless you call regular eating a deformity. my super cinny is certainly not deformed, and as i said before my yellow belly has this head, but my black pastel does not. funnily enough both the yb and the sc are prolific feeders too.
maybe the kinks in the caramel should be brought into this, as i would imagine kinks to impair these more. or the albinos eyesight.
it also makes me very angry when i read of people thinking snakes are disposable, that really annoys me.

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I assume Randy was suggesting that his friend euthanized the snake because of the kinking, not the duck bill. I have had to euthanize two snakes because of deformities. I did not see any reason to take them to the vet. I feel that it is up to the breeder if the snake should be euthanized or not. I also feel that it is a responsibility of the breeder to euthanize snakes with severe deformities.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I assume Randy was suggesting that his friend euthanized the snake because of the kinking, not the duck bill. I have had to euthanize two snakes because of deformities. I did not see any reason to take them to the vet. I feel that it is up to the breeder if the snake should be euthanized or not. I also feel that it is a responsibility of the breeder to euthanize snakes with severe deformities.

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law must be differant in the usa, and i would rather give my vet the chance to see the reptile and advise me off what he would do, than think i am godlike and decide what lives and what dies. he said the snake had a cleft palate and his friend decided he may euthanise.
i once took a hatchling to my vet, myself expecting him to put her to sleep. i listened to his advice, followed it, and that snake is now a stunning 657gram royal. if i was prone to deciding who lived and who died, she might well have not been here today. as it is, it is not my right to euthanise and for that i am so glad.

i too would like to see the measurements. im not saying you are a liar either. but i just can't see the difference in the pics. ive looked at every link everyone has posted and i just can't see it.

is there a way you can post you measurements? and BTW that must be a fun job! do you pick where the missles actually go?

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

i too would like to see the measurements. im not saying you are a liar either. but i just can't see the difference in the pics. ive looked at every link everyone has posted and i just can't see it.

is there a way you can post you measurements? and BTW that must be a fun job! do you pick where the missles actually go?

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I use a system called Socet Set GXP. It's pretty basic photogrametry, but if you want to read more about the tool, click the link:

http://www.socetgxp.com/docs/educati...ogrammetry.pdf

The system will work on everything from overhead Target photos to hand held images.

Yes, these days I pick out where weapons impact...when I was active, I guided them from the ground. It's not just a fun job, it the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

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Originally Posted by envy_ld50

My super cinny is perfect. You have to see solid colored balls in person sometimes their heads look weird without the pattern.
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n...0/IMG_2120.jpg

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did you get that super from neil Golli?

(just curious!)

The laws in the US are getting more European all the time. I used to work with a guy who left the UK so he could keep guns. Hopefully he'll be able to keep them the rest of his life and you'll also be able to keep pythons in the UK the rest of yours but with these trends who knows. If you can't humanly euthanize a suffering animal who is to say you can feed it humanely treated rodents?

He did ask my opinion on the kinked and platypus nosed super cinnamon and I recommended a wait and see but I don't know what he decided or if he took it to a vet. I did once hatch out a badly kinked corn snake and after it proved it could eat and defecate I took it to my vet for his opinion. It just so happens that my local vet is a published herp expert but I know that many don't have an experienced reptile vet available. He thought my corn snake moved like it was NOT in pain (just stiff). However, my kinked corn snake only lived about 6 years so I'm not sure the kinking didn't cause some sort of suffering after all.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

did you get that super from neil Golli?

(just curious!)

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Yeah I got this guy from neil.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

The laws in the US are getting more European all the time. I used to work with a guy who left the UK so he could keep guns. Hopefully he'll be able to keep them the rest of his life and you'll also be able to keep pythons in the UK the rest of yours but with these trends who knows. If you can't humanly euthanize a suffering animal who is to say you can feed it humanely treated rodents?

He did ask my opinion on the kinked and platypus nosed super cinnamon and I recommended a wait and see but I don't know what he decided or if he took it to a vet. I did once hatch out a badly kinked corn snake and after it proved it could eat and defecate I took it to my vet for his opinion. It just so happens that my local vet is a published herp expert but I know that many don't have an experienced reptile vet available. He thought my corn snake moved like it was NOT in pain (just stiff). However, my kinked corn snake only lived about 6 years so I'm not sure the kinking didn't cause some sort of suffering after all.

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oh we can euthanise. we have a special tool to do it! its called a vet. and my vet is highly specialised in exotics.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

What an idiotic comment. You talk bad about BHB but recommend going with LLLReptile. Is LLL reptile even a breeder? I was always under the impression that they are a wholesaler. Since you mentioned it, what are some of the problems YOU have seen with BHB? I am honestly curious what kind of issues you have had with them.

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I have to agree with you fully on this. People like BHB,RDR,VPI and many others have pinnacle animals and have done alot for the industry and how you could compare BHB to LLL is corny.

That super is hot bro

i heard that, and its most likely false, but if you get a nice line carmel, like

1.1 Het Carmels, and they are say, VPI line...

is there a less chance they would kink for having a line carmel?

i know spiders spin and wobble, mine wobbles, not bad but still noticable...
she is still a great functioning snake, and she is a great eater :]

our pied eats like a champ too... ive never heard pieds were problem feeders...

and...
pearls are cool, IF THEYD SURVIVE...
and even if there was that rare occasion, that one does...
it will be the only one, and then your stuck with the one, and more and more people will try to breed, and fail... my .02


and is duck billing the only genetic thing with black pastels?
i heard its bad, if you have a black pastel, with a super in its past....