Do all morphs get "head wobble"?

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

You even did so on another thread where the person was deciding between a spider and a pinstripe, arguing that the pinstripe didn't wobble, so it was the obvious choice.
That's not arguing. I said it wouldn't have problems if it was a pin. Other people said that also. EVERYONE else said that they would also get the pinstripe, and the person that started the thread was asking for oppinions. They ended up deciding to get the pinstripe. Go read the thread if you want.

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The OP of the other thread that you commented on was strickly asking which snake they should get. Nothing about that thread had anything to do with the spider wobble, except when YOU and YOU alone brought it up!
Me and the others were suggesting getting the pinstripe because the OP was already planning on getting a bumblebee so getting the pinstripe female would help diversify their collection and their future breeding plans.

AND I have talked to people about spiders, with many years of experience.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I think quality of life is an animal living happily. The people that posted above thought it meant that it was staying alive (eating, breeding, and growing)

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So how do you quantify happiness in a ball python? Most of us who work with them will quantify it with the fact that they eat, breed and grow. Unhappy = stressed. Stressed = not eating, not breeding, contracting illnesses as a result of a suppressed immune system from being stressed.

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Go read the thread if you want.

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I did read it.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

It's when they 'pretend' or 'lie' that the spider problems aren't as bad that it annoys me.

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I am not pretending nor lying. I tell everyone that all spiders spin. I also tell them that it's been my personal experience, working with them, that the majority of them are unaffected in their quality of life by this condition.

You don't own one, you've only observed them at shows. You have no hands on experience working with them that would lend you the legitimacy to determine that it's so bad.

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Originally Posted by AZmorphedballs

The OP of the other thread that you commented on was strickly asking which snake they should get. Nothing about that thread had anything to do with the spider wobble, except when YOU and YOU alone brought it up!
Me and the others were suggesting getting the pinstripe because the OP was already planning on getting a bumblebee so getting the pinstripe female would help diversify their collection and their future breeding plans.

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Either way, I was writing my opinion, which was the same as everyone else. A pinstripe. I didn't argue about it, I just wrote some good things about if they got a pinstripe. I put that it wouldn't wobble, then listed some of the morphs they could get. They posted later that they would get pinstripe to make jigsaws. I wrote that earlier in the thread.

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean others won't when they read this and personally I have better things to do than argue with you. You say one thing and claim another. Your denial, ignorance, and arrogance is out of control and this is obvious if you read the thread. Sorry to whoever started this thread. It wasn't my intention to jump in but i felt somebody had to. This guy/girl is a piece of work so have fun with him/her. Peace.
20

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

It seems like you are trying to make my sound bad instead of admitting the problems with spiders, affecting their quality of life.

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How exactly is it affecting their quality of life? Have you asked a spider how his/her quality of life is? Of course not. So how do you judge that their quality of life is inferior to any other ball python. Just because it has a movement that you don't like?

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean others won't when they read this and personally I have better things to do than argue with you. You say one thing and claim another.When did I do that? Write ONE time I did that. Quote it.
Your denial, ignorance, and arrogance is out of control and this is obvious if you read the thread.
You can keep repeating that, but you're not showing where I said it.Sorry to whoever started this thread. It wasn't my intention to jump in but i felt somebody had to. This guy/girl is a piece of work so have fun with him/her. Peace.
20
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hey rabernet, its a neverending battle over there. a wise person told me once "the fool bumps his gums while the wise move on."

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Originally Posted by rabernet

How exactly is it affecting their quality of life? Have you asked a spider how his/her quality of life is? Of course not. So how do you judge that their quality of life is inferior to any other ball python. Just because it has a movement that you don't like?

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I don't dislike the movement.
In the other thread, they said that their spider was already having problems. Quote:
Anyway, at the last Tucson Reptile Show we purchased 2 hatchling females from a local breeder we know. One, a spider would not eat anything for us and always seemed very skittish and easily stressed (for a ball even). We tried just about everything you can try to get a finicky ball to take a meal. Finally the breeder offered to take her back and get her eating.

If an animal can't control their movements, how happy can they be? It's obvious that when they strike and miss, they aren't trying to miss.

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

hey rabernet, its a neverending battle over there. a wise person told me once "the fool bumps his gums while the wise move on."

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It's only never ending because you never post what you accused me of, because you can't quote it by what I wrote.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

So how do you quantify happiness in a ball python? Most of us who work with them will quantify it with the fact that they eat, breed and grow. Unhappy = stressed. Stressed = not eating, not breeding, contracting illnesses as a result of a suppressed immune system from being stressed.
That doesn't always happen. A stressed animal could still eat, breed, and not contract illnesses. I'm sure they don't like having involuntary muscle movements. You can't deny that.



I did read it.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I am not pretending nor lying. I tell everyone that all spiders spin. I also tell them that it's been my personal experience, working with them, that the majority of them are unaffected in their quality of life by this condition.

You don't own one, you've only observed them at shows. You have no hands on experience working with them that would lend you the legitimacy to determine that it's so bad.

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What about the minority?

you said you were not trying to argue and have already contradicted that statement miserably. above and beyond that, the details are miniscule and irrelevant so im not going to quote you. it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread so quit referring to what im writing about in your response as if you want me to reply and just take it for what it is. that's all that needs to be said besides get a life.

I wonder how long until this goes to QT room? :rolleyes:

Do you (generally, not directed at anyone) know any people who have children with known family genetic problems? (ie. heart problems, diabetes, breast cancer?) I know heart disease and anxiety problems run in my family...my parents knew this too and here I am :)

IMO (I feel like I have to accentuate this is only my opinion) the spider wobble is much like a human genetic issue. My boyfriend is a diabetic, and I am well aware that if we have kids they could potentially be diabetic as well. My ex husband is ADD to the max, I knew this and now have a son with severe ADD. It happens, in our world and every other in the animal kingdom. Bull dogs are known to have severe hip and leg problems, yet thousands are sold each year and bred. Himalayan cats have sinus problems. This argument over whether the spider wobble is good or bad is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

you said you were not trying to argue and have already contradicted that statement miserably.
It takes 2 to argue.
above and beyond that, the details are miniscule and irrelevant so im not going to quote you.
lol you could also write there is NOTHING to quote
it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread so quit referring to what im writing about in your response as if you want me to reply and just take it for what it is.
Yes, I want you to reply with a list of all the 'minuscule and irrelevant details.'
that's all that needs to be said besides get a life.
Which makes you sound so much smarter!

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Originally Posted by LGray23

I wonder how long until this goes to QT room? :rolleyes:

Do you (generally, not directed at anyone) know any people who have children with known family genetic problems? (ie. heart problems, diabetes, breast cancer?) I know heart disease and anxiety problems run in my family...my parents knew this too and here I am :)

IMO (I feel like I have to accentuate this is only my opinion) the spider wobble is much like a human genetic issue. My boyfriend is a diabetic, and I am well aware that if we have kids they could potentially be diabetic as well. My ex husband is ADD to the max, I knew this and now have a son with severe ADD. It happens, in our world and every other in the animal kingdom. Bull dogs are known to have severe hip and leg problems, yet thousands are sold each year and bred. Himalayan cats have sinus problems. This argument over whether the spider wobble is good or bad is pointless.

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I was meaning that people lie about the problems with spiders, I think the bad part is when people lie about there being some extreme problems. There ARE a minority of spiders that have to be force fed or almost constantly wobble.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I don't dislike the movement.
In the other thread, they said that their spider was already having problems. Quote:
Anyway, at the last Tucson Reptile Show we purchased 2 hatchling females from a local breeder we know. One, a spider would not eat anything for us and always seemed very skittish and easily stressed (for a ball even). We tried just about everything you can try to get a finicky ball to take a meal. Finally the breeder offered to take her back and get her eating.

If an animal can't control their movements, how happy can they be? It's obvious that when they strike and miss, they aren't trying to miss.

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That's a finicky ball python, which can happen with any mutation. How is the snake's finickiness even related to the spider wobble? I've got a clutch of pastels that took their own sweet time to start eating. Some breeders at shows will sell freshly hatched ball pythons before they've even had their first meal. I do not agree with this practice and will not allow an animal to leave my collection until they've had three consecutive meals with me, and I'm confident that they are a strong feeder.

Your example is about a finicky snake. Just because it happens to be a spider doesn't mean squat for your argument.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

What about the minority?

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Every single mutation can have a problem in the clutch. It's not exclusive to spiders. What about the minority of normals that have a problem? What about the minority of lessers that have a problem?

Why do you seem so invested in the focusing just on the spider?

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I was meaning that people lie about the problems with spiders, I think the bad part is when people lie about there being some extreme problems. There ARE a minority of spiders that have to be force fed or almost constantly wobble.

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I will concede that. And as a breeder, there is a minority of any mutation that is not suitable to be sold. The ethical breeder will not sell an animal that has problems. The problem lies with the breeder, not the snake.

One thing we will all agree on is that spiders are NOT for everyone, however regardless of the mutation one thing that bothers me are people that cannot help themselves but to judge and look down on those that chose to work with a certain mutation.

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I think quality of life is an animal living happily. The people that posted above thought it meant that it was staying alive (eating, breeding, and growing)

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What is living happily? Beside eating, growing and breeding what do snakes with a good quality of life do that spiders don't? :confused: (Those are snakes they eat they grow they breed should you chose to breed them I am not aware of them doing anything more than that :rolleyes:)

More seriously how do YOU judge the quality of life of spiders and their combos, is that based on YOUR hand on experience working with spiders..........oh wait a minute that can't be since you don't want to work with them. :confuzd:

I can tell you I have a few spiders and spider combos and I am failing to see how their quality of life is any different than the snake in the next tub (the oldest spider has been with me for 5 years now) they don't have a horrible quality of life as you make it sound they don't just survive they THRIVE like any other snake in my collection.

So like I said they're not for everyone and they are not the only mutation that is not for everyone, the difference is that most people here understand without judging.

And talking about this

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I was meaning that people lie about the problems with spiders, I think the bad part is when people lie about there being some extreme problems. There ARE a minority of spiders that have to be force fed or almost constantly wobble.

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People? Who lies about wobble? Any names? 1 person? Everyone who breeds them? Who?

I have been on this forum a while and people who breed spiders will always be the first one to say that they whole spin to a degree, that stress can exacerbate it that it can diminish or increase with age etc............how is that lying?

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Originally Posted by Deborah

People? Who lies about wobble? Any names? 1 person? Everyone who breeds them? Who?

I have been on this forum a while and people who breed spiders will always be the first one to say that they whole spin to a degree, that stress can exacerbate it that it can diminish or increase with age etc............how is that lying?

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The person that started this thread wanted a snake that would not wobble. People after that started saying that they liked the wobble, or that it was cute, or gave the snake personality. I said that they shouldn't underestimate how bad the spider problem can be. They were acting like it is perfectly normal for a snake to have something similar to Parkensons. I don't care if it gets better or worse with age, if an animal EVER has a problem like that, I don't think people should risk getting one with a bad problem by breeding them.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

The person that started this thread wanted a snake that would not wobble. People after that started saying that they liked the wobble, or that it was cute, or gave the snake personality. I said that they shouldn't underestimate how bad the spider problem can be. They were acting like it is perfectly normal for a snake to have something similar to Parkensons. I don't care if it gets better or worse with age, if an animal EVER has a problem like that, I don't think people should risk getting one with a bad problem by breeding them.

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Your agenda is very clear based on your participation in this thread. You wouldn't be the first and I'm sure you won't be the last. Thank goodness there are others who are able to think independently of you and will make their own decisions.

Post #1, A simple question is asked.

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Originally Posted by yeroc1982

Do all morphs get "head wobble"?

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Post #2, A simple answer is provided.

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Originally Posted by bsash

Nope, the only morph with the known genetic head wobble is the spider, and any of their combinations. Hope that helps some.

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Then this thread derails into 8 pages of :fishslap:

I have absolutely nothing useful or worthwhile to contribute to this thread. I'm just along for the ride... :popcorn:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

if an animal EVER has a problem like that, I don't think people should risk getting one with a bad problem by breeding them.

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How noble of you to try to protect people by preventing them to get into spiders, I believe buyers should be educated and make decision for themselves ;)

Oh and since you avoided my previous questions I'll ask again ;)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

What is living happily? Beside eating, growing and breeding what do snakes with a good quality of life do that spiders don't? :confused: (Those are snakes they eat they grow they breed should you chose to breed them I am not aware of them doing anything more than that :rolleyes:)

More seriously how do YOU judge the quality of life of spiders and their combos, is that based on YOUR hand on experience working with spiders..........oh wait a minute that can't be since you don't want to work with them. :confuzd:

I can tell you I have a few spiders and spider combos and I am failing to see how their quality of life is any different than the snake in the next tub (the oldest spider has been with me for 5 years now) they don't have a horrible quality of life as you make it sound they don't just survive they THRIVE like any other snake in my collection.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

The person that started this thread wanted a snake that would not wobble. People after that started saying that they liked the wobble, or that it was cute, or gave the snake personality. I said that they shouldn't underestimate how bad the spider problem can be. They were acting like it is perfectly normal for a snake to have something similar to Parkensons. I don't care if it gets better or worse with age, if an animal EVER has a problem like that, I don't think people should risk getting one with a bad problem by breeding them.

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I own spider's, I breed spider, I've produce spiders and multi-gene Spider combos and I can tell that if spiders aren't your thing, that is perfectly within your right as a keeper and a customer to avoid that gene. I can tell you however that your pissing in to the wind when it comes to trying to tell other people what you think they aught to do with their money based on your experience or lack there of..

I'll be an Honest breeder..Here are some things you need to know about spiders.

#1. They are Ball Pythons aka Royal Pythons
#2. They eat rodents as a diet
#3. They are beautiful animals to behold
#4. ALL SPIDER'S Wobble.
#5. When combined with other genetic deformity's aka morphs they make amazing looking combos like the ones below.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...DSC_0178-1.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...s/DSC_0712.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...mojospider.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...s/DSC_0302.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...p/DSC_0501.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...i/DSC_0064.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...i/DSCF6217.jpg

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I said that it WAS affected by the wobble. Read all of MY posts

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People don't know if it affects their quality of life.

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this is just one of your many contradictions. Which one is it? If I really cared and had so much time on my hands, I could pick apart all your posts, just as you have done to others and mine, all while missing the point as well, but I'm over it. I only revisited this thread because I received a notification and had a couple minutes before class.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

The person that started this thread wanted a snake that would not wobble. People after that started saying that they liked the wobble, or that it was cute, or gave the snake personality. I said that they shouldn't underestimate how bad the spider problem can be. They were acting like it is perfectly normal for a snake to have something similar to Parkensons. I don't care if it gets better or worse with age, if an animal EVER has a problem like that, I don't think people should risk getting one with a bad problem by breeding them.

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Having the wobble IS normal for spider ball pythons.

You risk getting a snake with a bad problem within EVERY morph.

Your constant comparison to Parkinson's is irrelevant. The spider wobble shares very few symptoms with Parkinson's, and snakes do not have complex enough brains to feel embarrassed, ashamed, frustrated, or unhappy. Comparing the wobble to a human disease is laughable, because humans and snakes experience life so differently from one another.

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

Quality of life-
noun
your personal satisfaction (or dissatisfaction) with the cultural or intellectual conditions under which you live (as distinct from material comfort); "the new art museum is expected to improve the quality of life"

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I am curious about this definition you posted. Since when do snakes concern themselves with the "cultural or intellectual conditions under which they live"? If only I had known my snakes wanted to go to an art museum. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

I am curious about this definition you posted. Since when do snakes concern themselves with the "cultural or intellectual conditions under which they live"? If only I had known my snakes wanted to go to an art museum. :rolleyes:

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You make a very good point. That very definition is irrelevant in this case. They don't have a cultural or intellectual awareness, so it doesn't even apply. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

How noble of you to try to protect people by preventing them to get into spiders, I believe buyers should be educated and make decision for themselves ;)

Oh and since you avoided my previous questions I'll ask again ;)

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I didn't avoid questions. I said it was not normal for spiders to vibrate their heads. You seem to still want an explanation for how to decide whether it is bad or not.

I will say it in a easier way to think of.
1. Pretend you don't know anything about reptiles, or breeding snakes. Pretend you went to a reptile show with someone trying to convince you to like/breed snakes. When you are at the show, a spider starts vibrating his head. The breeder tells you it is a neurological disorder associated with all spiders, with different levels of the problem in different animals. Now also think of you going to another section of the vendor's table, and seeing a caramel albino. He says the same thing about them having that problem.
Then you see TONS of spiders and spider combos, with ALL of them having the problem in different amounts.
NOW think of hearing people say "it isn't that bad, I actually think it is 'cute' and gives the animal personality".
You now know that it is NOT natural, but people breed it because either they like the pattern or want the money.
You know it affects the animal. Nobody can measure the exact amount it affects them, but it DEFINITELY isn't 'good' or AT ALL benefiting the animal.
Now, hopefully, you will be able to think of why it is not good for spider ball pythons to be bred.
Tell my ONE reason that people 'have' to own spiders, other than liking them. There are 133+ known single gene mutations, with over 1000 designer (2+ gene) morphs.http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/
Someone who has animals only for pets would see that easier than a breeder. People I know with pets only, or breeding on extremely small scale, rarely have screwed up animals. They usually only do if it was a rescue or from previous keepers not taking care of it.
You still avoid answering my question, of why it is a 'necessary' morph. Why don't people make the smart choice and buy pinstripe, genetic banded, or another pattern reducer morph instead? All you say is 'people can make their own choices', which I obviously know. I am asking why so many make the STUPID choice to breed a screwed up animal.

You also 'avoided' answering this.
If an animal can't control their movements, how happy can they be? It's obvious that when they strike and miss, they aren't trying to miss.
I can also post a bunch of pictures of pretty, not screwed up animals. I will post the alternatives to the last posts' spider combo morphs.
Tiger Pin
Albino Pinstripe
Axanthic Pinstripe
Banana Pin
Boom Ball
Butter Pin
Dragon Fly
OG Pin
I could go down the whole list, but that's just Pinstripe combos, about the closest to spider.
You still don't say why people can't control their desire to have a pattern morph, but somehow take care of their animals patiently (waiting longer to breed, and just in general caring about their animals as PETS. Not objects to breed and make money from).

Hi,

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

You also 'avoided' answering this.
If an animal can't control their movements, how happy can they be? It's obvious that when they strike and miss, they aren't trying to miss.
I can also post a bunch of pictures of pretty, not screwed up animals. I will post the alternatives to the last posts' spider combo morphs.
Tiger Pin
Albino Pinstripe
Axanthic Pinstripe
Banana Pin
Boom Ball
Butter Pin
Dragon Fly
OG Pin
I could go down the whole list, but that's just Pinstripe combos, about the closest to spider.
You still don't say why people can't control their desire to have a pattern morph, but somehow take care of their animals patiently (waiting longer to breed, and just in general caring about their animals as PETS. Not objects to breed and make money from).

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I get that you think pinstripes look like spiders - problem is they don't. At all. In combo morphs especially.

Those are in no way, shape or form alternatives to the spider morphs mentioned. If you think they are you need your eyes examined.

In your list you might want to remove Tiger pin given the fact that the possible problem with deserts is far more serious. And keeping, incubating at lower temps has been hyped as the fix for every problem that has cropped up in ball python morphs - it has never fixed one of them yet so don't be so quick to announce that fixed. Nobody has even tried it long enough for a preliminary judgement.

Let a lone announcing a cure.

I'd also read up on bananas - there have been some major developments lately you may be unaware of.

Also the bug eye rumour in super lesser/ butters.

To be honest your specific genetic knowledge of this species is nowhere near the level you need to buy a high horse let alone pontificate from the top of it.

I get that you are passionate in your opinion that they should not be bred. But that's just it - it's an opinion and people are allowed to disagree with you. And most of the people in this thread who have actually kept the animals do.

It's pointless rechewing and re-resenting your argument. It's not that we don't understand it - we just think you are wrong. Or at least have no danged right to try and tell anyone your opinion is more valid than theirs.

You are, effectively, telling everyone they have lower moral standards than you.

Bear in mind some of them have 5-10 years of direct, eyes and hands on, experience to stack up against your precisely zero quanity of the same. Can you see how that might be contrued as an insult or at the very least extremely rude?

At the end oif the day, without actual direct understandable comunication nobody can be truly certain on the "happyness and stress" leves of any other organism.

Since that is only possible with human beings that presents a major problem. I certainly wouldn't go around asking people born with deformities or medical conditions if they would have been happier if they had never been born - and I don't recommend you try it either.

So, you have no direct knowledge or observational experience, and the other people, who have no direct knowledge but do have observational experience, disagree with you.

Does this sound like a situation that will ever be comprehensively answered to you?

Incidently - that dog in your avatar it looks like a Chihuahua?

I assume you don't think they should be bred or allowed to exist either?

You know, because of these problems?



dr del

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I didn't avoid questions. I said it was not normal for spiders to vibrate their heads. You seem to still want an explanation for how to decide whether it is bad or not.
Actually since the wobble is attached to the spider gene and all spiders have the wobble to some degree, it is completely normal for them to wobble.

I will say it in a easier way to think of.
1. Pretend you don't know anything about reptiles, or breeding snakes. Pretend you went to a reptile show with someone trying to convince you to like/breed snakes. When you are at the show, a spider starts vibrating his head. The breeder tells you it is a neurological disorder associated with all spiders, with different levels of the problem in different animals. Now also think of you going to another section of the vendor's table, and seeing a caramel albino. He says the same thing about them having that problem.
Then you see TONS of spiders and spider combos, with ALL of them having the problem in different amounts.
NOW think of hearing people say "it isn't that bad, I actually think it is 'cute' and gives the animal personality".
You now know that it is NOT natural, but people breed it because either they like the pattern or want the money.
You know it affects the animal. Nobody can measure the exact amount it affects them, but it DEFINITELY isn't 'good' or AT ALL benefiting the animal.
Now, hopefully, you will be able to think of why it is not good for spider ball pythons to be bred.
Tell my ONE reason that people 'have' to own spiders, other than liking them. There are 133+ known single gene mutations, with over 1000 designer (2+ gene) morphs.http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/
Yes there are now over 1000 designer morphs out there and the spider gene is a part of almost 10% of them.
Someone who has animals only for pets would see that easier than a breeder. People I know with pets only, or breeding on extremely small scale, rarely have screwed up animals. They usually only do if it was a rescue or from previous keepers not taking care of it.
You still avoid answering my question, of why it is a 'necessary' morph.
Why is it necessary for us to own any of the different animals we keep as pets? It is actually pretty simple we do it because we LIKE them. Not a single animal that we as humans keep as PETS is necessary.
Why don't people make the smart choice and buy pinstripe, genetic banded, or another pattern reducer morph instead? All you say is 'people can make their own choices', which I obviously know. I am asking why so many make the STUPID choice to breed a screwed up animal.

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And for the most important part. Where do you get off telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do!? :rage:
Expressing your opinion is one thing but calling anyone "STUPID" because they disagree and keep an animal that you personally don't like is incredibly rude and immature.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,



I get that you think pinstripes look like spiders - problem is they don't. At all. In combo morphs especially.

Those are in no way, shape or form alternatives to the spider morphs mentioned. If you think they are you need your eyes examined.
I said they look the most similar. Use brazilian rainbow boas as an example. They have 3 morphs. Hypo, Anery, and Ghost. You can't make more morphs of them than there already are. You have a choice of those 3. Now pretend that happened with all problematic ball pythons. You can still have hundreds of morphs. Just exclude the problematic ones.
In your list you might want to remove Tiger pin given the fact that the possible problem with deserts is far more serious. And keeping, incubating at lower temps has been hyped as the fix for every problem that has cropped up in ball python morphs - it has never fixed one of them yet so don't be so quick to announce that fixed. Nobody has even tried it long enough for a preliminary judgement.
I haven't heard about the desert problems, but I haven't been reading about them, because they are out of my budget right now anyways. I thought that was a tiger (dominant morph) pinstripe.

Let a lone announcing a cure.
I don't know what you mean about lower temperature incubation.
I'd also read up on bananas - there have been some major developments lately you may be unaware of.

Also the bug eye rumour in super lesser/ butters.
These two I haven't heard of, probably because I wasn't going to buy the morphs.
To be honest your specific genetic knowledge of this species is nowhere near the level you need to buy a high horse let alone pontificate from the top of it.
I research the ones I will buy or think of buying. I just recently heard about the spider problem (luckily) by seeing it in person and asking about it. NO ads on kingsnake warn about it, very few morph guides do, and the only other thing is that some ads say 'it doesn't have a wobble', and I didn't know what that meant.
I get that you are passionate in your opinion that they should not be bred. But that's just it - it's an opinion and people are allowed to disagree with you. And most of the people in this thread who have actually kept the animals do.
And, if they have kept the animals, I'm sure they are not going to want to agree with me about how bad breeding spiders is.
It's pointless rechewing and re-resenting your argument. It's not that we don't understand it - we just think you are wrong. Or at least have no danged right to try and tell anyone your opinion is more valid than theirs.
You are the first person to say that you understood it. But still, nobody said why they weren't able to avoid buying spiders with all the alternative morphs.
You are, effectively, telling everyone they have lower moral standards than you.
I think they do, at least with the spider morph.
Bear in mind some of them have 5-10 years of direct, eyes and hands on, experience to stack up against your precisely zero quanity of the same. Can you see how that might be contrued as an insult or at the very least extremely rude?
How do you know how long I've had reptiles? Do you think everyone joins a forums the day they get their first pet? That still doesn't change what someone can learn in a week. It doesn't take 5-10 years to learn about a morphs problems.
At the end oif the day, without actual direct understandable comunication nobody can be truly certain on the "happyness and stress" leves of any other organism.
You don't have to be. If it stressed an animal just a little each time it strikes and misses, or wobbles, it is different that a normally functioning animal.
Since that is only possible with human beings that presents a major problem. I certainly wouldn't go around asking people born with deformities or medical conditions if they would have been happier if they had never been born - and I don't recommend you try it either.
[B]So you think that snakes that were never born are going to be sad? You talk about asking a LIVING PERSON that. Not an animal that was never born. What if person A and person B had a kid, but never a second kid? Do you think their non-existent sibling would be 'sad' or 'missing out' because they were never born? Another difference is that you PLAN for spiders to have problems. People say 'if it's in the bad form of the problem, we'll just KILL IT. What's the difference? If you 'understand' like you wrote above, you agree to planning on killing animals that YOU bred, then killing them if they do not meet your standards of having limited problems. Now try to tell me that Pinstripes can't be an alternative, they don't look similar enough (for you), and that I need MY [B]MY eyes checked.
So, you have no direct knowledge or observational experience, and the other people, who have no direct knowledge but do have observational experience, disagree with you.
I have 'observed' them at reptile expos, and 'have knowledge' of their problems as much as anyone else.
Does this sound like a situation that will ever be comprehensively answered to you?
If you read everything I wrote, yes. It is bad, stupid, wrong, whatever you want to call it, to breed spiders.
Incidently - that dog in your avatar it looks like a Chihuahua?

I assume you don't think they should be bred or allowed to exist either?

You know, because of these problems?
You somehow seem to know my pets so well already.
Yes, I have 3 chihuahuas. All 3 were fixed ASAP. We never considered breeding them.
The first is a deerface, what people breeding chihuahuas don't want, because she doesn't barely have an 'apple head' at all.
She got in a fight one time and had her hip dislocated, and we couldn't tell other than her slightly limping and crying if you touched her leg. It was better by the end of the day and hasn't happened since then. The second has never had any of those problems. The most recent was given to us by the vet taking care of her, who had her for 2 weeks. He was hit by a car, then surrendered, because the owner couldn't pay for the medical bills ($1000). His entire front leg was amputated. He has none of the problems. Food is available constantly to them, so they have no chance of getting hypoglycemia.


dr del

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AZmorphedballs

And for the most important part. Where do you get off telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do!? :rage:
Expressing your opinion is one thing but calling anyone "STUPID" because they disagree and keep an animal that you personally don't like is incredibly rude and immature.

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Of course I 'personally don't like' the spider trait. It's not the animals fault for having problems, it's the breeder that bred for that trait! I think it is 'incredibly rude and immature' to breed animals, knowing that you will KILL THEM if they have the problem in the extreme. Don't say people don't kill them. I read all the time, written by people I consider STUPID: If a spider shows the problem in the extreme state, a good breeder will not sell it. It will be 'culled'. What do YOU think that means? Here, let me show you an easier way to help you comprehend it. Exchange the first to letters for K and I:
C U lled
K I lled
and you have magically transformed the word! It even sounds similar! Why would a 'good breeder' breed for then kill their animals? Try to answer that.:rage:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

Why would a 'good breeder' breed for then kill their animals? Try to answer that.:rage:[/B]

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Based on that no one should breed any reptiles or animals of any kind for that matter because unless you are that naive sooner or later YOU will have to cull an animal, that what happens when you breed them sooner or later you will be faced with the decision of having to cull an animal.

Funny how you still fail to explain how bad their quality of life is compare to other snakes that also eat, poop, grow, breed also miss when they strike (because unless you didn't know noy only spider do that ;) )

I guess your vast experience based on observation at shows and your readings makes you so much more experienced than others on the subject who actually have hands on experience.

Buy yeah keep insulting and bashing other fellow breeders for the animals they chose to work with at least you're good at that. ;)

Desert females can't produce babies that thrive. Some say lower temps will correct this problem but it doesn't or at least hasn't been proved. Womas look way more similar to spiders than pinstripes. Pinstripes don't look anything like a spider.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

You now know that it is NOT natural, but people breed it because either they like the pattern or want the money.

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When did the spider gene, and its characteristics become "Not Natural"? I don't recall the first spider coming about as a result of some test tube experiment... Nope, in fact it was captured from the wild... If humans didn't exist there would be a full breeding population of them in the wild right now...

And yes, people usually do produce morphs "because either they like the pattern or want the money." This is true for normals too. Your point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

You know it affects the animal. Nobody can measure the exact amount it affects them, but it DEFINITELY isn't 'good' or AT ALL benefiting the animal.
Now, hopefully, you will be able to think of why it is not good for spider ball pythons to be bred .

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If you actually owned and cared for spiders for years, and have bred them and their combinations for years, like many of us have, you might have a clue. But since you haven't, you don't have a clue. See how it works?

MANY people with hands on experience will tell you that spiders are often the best eaters in a collection. I can tell you for a fact that my top 3 eaters are all spiders or spider combos. So how exactly are you able to determine that the spider gene "definately isn't good or at all benefiting the animal?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I am asking why so many make the STUPID choice to breed a screwed up animal.

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Like I said, you don't have a clue.

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You are the first person to say that you understood it. But still, nobody said why they weren't able to avoid buying spiders with all the alternative morphs.

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Why in the world should I HAVE to avoid buying spiders? I happen to like....no, scratch that...LOVE spiders.

Quote:

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How do you know how long I've had reptiles?

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Your own admitted lack of knowledge about the spider wobble before you went to a show, when it's one of the most talked about topics in the ball python community, as well as your admitted non-knowledge about other well known problems with other morphs.

I don't own deserts, but I know very well the discussions around them.

You may have kept reptiles longer, but you definitely haven't worked with ball pythons very long, nor have you done as much research about them as you try to come across as, or none of this would have been a surprise to you.

Your arguments in this entire thread are weak, you've back pedaled when you've been unable to define "happiness" in a snake, you "assume" that they are unhappy when they miss on a strike (guess what, normals also miss on strikes, maybe ball pythons shouldn't exist at all - they're all so stressed from missing a strike).

You're nothing more than a keyboard warrior based on observations at a reptile show, which gives you the authority now to judge everyone who chooses to work with spiders.

I hope that you you change that attitude before you plan to breed yourself and try to market yourself, because you've surely alienated yourself from a lot of potential future customers by being so smug and judgemental.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

You somehow seem to know my pets so well already.
Yes, I have 3 chihuahuas. All 3 were fixed ASAP. We never considered breeding them.
The first is a deerface, what people breeding chihuahuas don't want, because she doesn't barely have an 'apple head' at all.
She got in a fight one time and had her hip dislocated, and we couldn't tell other than her slightly limping and crying if you touched her leg. It was better by the end of the day and hasn't happened since then. The second has never had any of those problems. The most recent was given to us by the vet taking care of her, who had her for 2 weeks. He was hit by a car, then surrendered, because the owner couldn't pay for the medical bills ($1000). His entire front leg was amputated. He has none of the problems. Food is available constantly to them, so they have no chance of getting hypoglycemia.

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I can't understand why you chose to keep chihuahuas as PETS when there are so many other dog breeds that don't have these problems. Why there are hundreds of other breeds out there to choose from that don't have these problems.

Hypocrite much?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

Of course I 'personally don't like' the spider trait. It's not the animals fault for having problems, it's the breeder that bred for that trait! I think it is 'incredibly rude and immature' to breed animals, knowing that you will KILL THEM if they have the problem in the extreme. Don't say people don't kill them. I read all the time, written by people I consider STUPID: If a spider shows the problem in the extreme state, a good breeder will not sell it. It will be 'culled'. What do YOU think that means? Here, let me show you an easier way to help you comprehend it. Exchange the first to letters for K and I:
C U lled
K I lled
and you have magically transformed the word! It even sounds similar! Why would a 'good breeder' breed for then kill their animals? Try to answer that.:rage:

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And you believe that chihuahua breeders woudn't dare cull a problem puppy? :rofl:

How dare they breed them - and how dare you keep them to support the market and encourage breeders to continue to fill demand?

"seeing them at a show" is not experience. Just recently reading about the wobble doesn't not qualify you as "experienced." Maybe if spider owners and breeders were stating everything you were stating, other people would take it as advice. However, you are talking out of your "you know what" and nobody is going to take advice from YOU because like mike said " you don't have a clue." The more you talk, the more apparent it is.

and quit using the term "happy" snakes dont have emotions like that. it makes you sound very uneducated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I will say it in a easier way to think of.
1. Pretend you don't know anything about reptiles, or breeding snakes.

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He wants you step in his shoes! :rofl::rofl:

Edit: joking, sorry, not very nice but easy shot, so I took it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I can't understand why you chose to keep chihuahuas as PETS when there are so many other dog breeds that don't have these problems. Why there are hundreds of other breeds out there to choose from that don't have these problems.

Hypocrite much?

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So you think there might be people out there telling others not to buy Chihuhuas because they have issues? You don't think people like that would call those who chose to get a chihuhua stupid and look down on them do you? :rolleyes:

Oh wait who would do such a thing about any animal? :rolleyes:

I guess it might all come back down again to make an educated purchase but of course some would rather bash than educate. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genetics Breeder

I said they look the most similar. Use brazilian rainbow boas as an example. They have 3 morphs. Hypo, Anery, and Ghost. You can't make more morphs of them than there already are. You have a choice of those 3. Now pretend that happened with all problematic ball pythons. You can still have hundreds of morphs. Just exclude the problematic ones.

I haven't heard about the desert problems, but I haven't been reading about them, because they are out of my budget right now anyways. I thought that was a tiger (dominant morph) pinstripe.

I don't know what you mean about lower temperature incubation.

These two I haven't heard of, probably because I wasn't going to buy the morphs.

I research the ones I will buy or think of buying. I just recently heard about the spider problem (luckily) by seeing it in person and asking about it. NO ads on kingsnake warn about it, very few morph guides do, and the only other thing is that some ads say 'it doesn't have a wobble', and I didn't know what that meant.

And, if they have kept the animals, I'm sure they are not going to want to agree with me about how bad breeding spiders is.

You are the first person to say that you understood it. But still, nobody said why they weren't able to avoid buying spiders with all the alternative morphs.

I think they do, at least with the spider morph.

How do you know how long I've had reptiles? Do you think everyone joins a forums the day they get their first pet? That still doesn't change what someone can learn in a week. It doesn't take 5-10 years to learn about a morphs problems.

You don't have to be. If it stressed an animal just a little each time it strikes and misses, or wobbles, it is different that a normally functioning animal.

So you think that snakes that were never born are going to be sad? You talk about asking a LIVING PERSON that. Not an animal that was never born. What if person A and person B had a kid, but never a second kid? Do you think their non-existent sibling would be 'sad' or 'missing out' because they were never born? Another difference is that you PLAN for spiders to have problems. People say 'if it's in the bad form of the problem, we'll just KILL IT. What's the difference? If you 'understand' like you wrote above, you agree to planning on killing animals that YOU bred, then killing them if they do not meet your standards of having limited problems. Now try to tell me that Pinstripes can't be an alternative, they don't look similar enough (for you), and that I need MY MY eyes checked.

I have 'observed' them at reptile expos, and 'have knowledge' of their problems as much as anyone else.

If you read everything I wrote, yes. It is bad, stupid, wrong, whatever you want to call it, to breed spiders.

You somehow seem to know my pets so well already.
Yes, I have 3 chihuahuas. All 3 were fixed ASAP. We never considered breeding them.
The first is a deerface, what people breeding chihuahuas don't want, because she doesn't barely have an 'apple head' at all.
She got in a fight one time and had her hip dislocated, and we couldn't tell other than her slightly limping and crying if you touched her leg. It was better by the end of the day and hasn't happened since then. The second has never had any of those problems. The most recent was given to us by the vet taking care of her, who had her for 2 weeks. He was hit by a car, then surrendered, because the owner couldn't pay for the medical bills ($1000). His entire front leg was amputated. He has none of the problems. Food is available constantly to them, so they have no chance of getting hypoglycemia.

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As mentioned above woma looks the most similar but also acts nothing like a spider in combination. This is why people aren't using "alternatives" - because there aren't any. Nothing else makes anything that looks like a bumblebee or a lesser spinner.

The problem with the desert gene took years to be known - a 30 minute look at a show wouldn't have shown you it. Some of them do take years. The recent discoveries about the banana gene also took multiple generations.

The fact you watched a snake in a stressful situation ( the show ) entitles you to say nothing more than you once went to a snake show. I'm not kidding.

How they act under stressful conditions can be totally different from how they behave in their proper environment. Your "experience" is litterally none despite your inflated opinions on the matter.

Tell you what, since there are so many genetic weaknesses in dogs, why don't you go persuade them to stop breeding or keeping any breed with a problem - if you succeed in that come back to us. When they point out your hypocracy in keeping three dogs while telling everyone else they shouldn't be allowed to breed or keep them do us the courtesy of shutting up until you know what you are talking about.

Incidently the reason no ads on kingsnake mention it (or adverts for dogs etc) is because you are supposed to research before buying. You are currently sitting in a position of almost total ignorance insulting people. That's not nice.

Your comment on your moral superiority and stating that because they keep them they will never agree with you is flat out insulting. Especially since you are guilty of exactly the same thing you are berating them for from the top of your moral donkey.

You are supporting the breeding of animals with known genetic weaknesses by owning them. You can claim charity and kindness all you want - someone bred the animals you own which should have been a concept as abhorrent to you as people breeding spiders. One of them ironically has a mobility problem which could be causing it stress.

Does this mean you will be having it PTS?

Quote:

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You don't have to be. If it stressed an animal just a little each time it strikes and misses, or wobbles, it is different that a normally functioning animal.

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And your right, I don't know how long you have been keeping reptiles, but I do know how long you have been keeping spiders and I have a fairly good grasp of how very little you actually know about ball python morphs too. And, above I gave two examples where it did, indeed, take that length of time to understand the problems and quirks associated with a morph.

The last point I can't believe I am going to have to explain.

You wish to deny all future spiders the chance to be hatched. in the parallel I gave I mentioned asking people who have lived with problems in the hope you would understand that they may be able to tell you about their quality of life. The idea of this was to explain to you that your understanding was such that you have no right to decide for any living creature whether they get to experience life in the first place.

The fact you managed to miss that is either sarcasm or idiocy - you pick one and get back to me.

As already mentioned everyone who breeds animals faces the possibility of producing an animal that needs to euthanased due to incubation abnormalities, genetic incompatibility ( happens with normals too and is unpredictable ) or injury.

dr del

Of course all of them could have problems. Spiders are KNOWN for having problems. People admit that ALL of them do. I said already that my dogs were from a humane society. I don't care if people kept spiders as pets. It's when they breed them that they know there is a chance of it being messed up. I never knew where my dogs were born. If I did I DEFINITELY wouldn't say that they should breed more of them.
The humane society DOESN'T BREED DOGS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

and quit using the term "happy" snakes dont have emotions like that. it makes you sound very uneducated.

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So they don't have emotions? How do you know? What lab did you test emotional responses and keep track of records in? I know my leopard geckos could be 'happy' or the reptile equivalent by how they act. I don't have a scientific answer, but neither do you. People know that they probably don't get lonely, that doesn't mean they don't have emotions. Emotions are critical to making decisions and survival.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

So you think there might be people out there telling others not to buy Chihuhuas because they have issues? You don't think people like that would call those who chose to get a chihuhua stupid and look down on them do you? :rolleyes:

Oh wait who would do such a thing about any animal? :rolleyes:

I guess it might all come back down again to make an educated purchase but of course some would rather bash than educate. :rolleyes:

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I already said, I don't care if people buy problematic animals. I DO if they BREED them. My dogs are ALL FIXED. I NEVER considered breeding them. I said it was stupid for people to buy and breed spiders, meaning buying a spider only to plan on breeding it, before they even bought one.