I don't want in anyway to continue to pick at your posts but this does need addressed as well. This would mean that there's no explanation for a very well fed, bred for generations pet house cat to go outside and proceed to hunt and kill various birds, squirrels, etc. Yet year after year many pet cats that have never known a moment of hunger proceed to do so. Instinct is a VERY hard thing to breed out of any creature even after hundreds of years of captive and selective breeding.
When you not only read what I have to say, but you take the time to have an educated discussion on the topic ... I take it as a compliment. Please continue to dig at my ideas... It's why I take the time to think out loud on the forum... I've said it before... but discussions like this are the fuel for progressive thinking.

On another note... I love the topic you touched on about cats. Your completely right... The common house cat is the worlds #1 killer, killing more animals in the wild (like you said birds and what not) yearly than any other animal(captive or wild) on planet earth. But the valid point that you made about breeding certain behaviors into dogs is exactly the reason "a very well fed, bred for generations pet house cat" will "go outside and proceed to hunt and kill various birds, squirrels, etc." Because the common house cat was domesticated in the middle ages and bred for that exact purpose. They were exterminators, and they were rewarded for their kills. Thats why some cats will bring a kill and leave on your front porch or next to the slider door for you. They think they are doing you a favor. They are displaying there work. Maybe next time your cat does this you should give them a treat. It may be because of them being bred for this behavior (seeing as most documentation shows wild cats only kill for survival)... that house cats have been proven to be one of a small group of animals on earth that will kill for "fun". The well fed cats you refer to don't kill for hunger... They go inside for the whiskas for that. Maybe they kill it just out playfulness, or maybe its the remnants of the very reason cats were domesticated in the first place, but we know that it has nothing to do with any kind of survival instinct.

Actually I think I can explain that behaviour. Snakes constrict life prey until their well tuned senses tell them that prey is dead and of no further risk to them aka ready to eat. A snake being offered already dead prey may constrict it (I've actually seen them excessively constrict waiting apparently for signs of life that are not there) or may having sensed the prey is expired, simply eat it. They aren't losing any instincts if you think about it, they are simply using their instincts properly. Why constrict, therefore wasting precious energy, if constriction is not required. Snakes from what I've observed are very good about not expending energy needlessly.
You make good points... And what you said is correct. But I personally feel that it is not in the nature of snakes to consume dead prey. So while I agree that the snake has realized that the rat is already dead; therefore doesn't need to be constricted... At that point you have trained a natural predator to feed as a scavenger... Too far from their natural behavior for my liking! IMO if you feed p/k prey you should always find a way into fooling the snake that it is making a kill.



As a last note, and one that I'm not at all ashamed of. I have sat with a precious old breeder rat wrapped in a towel and shed tears as he or she passed away from old age. They may be "just" rats and never fully pets but they deserve my care and thanks for being such a vital part of why my family can keep the snakes we do. Being engaging, interesting animals in their own right allows me the luxury of understanding and enjoying their role in our home.
I understand what your saying... I gain an emotional attachment to any animal I spend extended time with. Actually this is part of the reason I don't breed my own feeders for my snakes (roaches for my lizards are another story). I've had pet rats before... and even a pet store feeder can be loved as a pet. I find it difficult feed off little mammals that I raised myself as I would probably become attached at some point. Now if I was lucky enough to have a collection like yours () I would defiantly be raising a nice healthy feeder colony.

26 times tonight I'll be feeding live rats and had I the ability I would show you that there is no rats screaming in pain, no rats doing much of anything other than immediately expiring in a manner that is likely far more humane and fast than most of the ways us humans pass from this life.
Hmmm... I don't know. In my experience I would have to disagree with that. Currently I feed a BP and a RTB weekly. I have cared for many different snakes in my ten years or so of herping and in my experience it is not uncommon to hear the rat squeal or screech when it gets snagged for dinner. And while i could see it being quick after the neck is snapped... I have never seen one living feeding result in "immediate" death. There is always kicking and squirming for at least a couple of seconds until circulation is completely lost. And if the neck gets snapped it is normally not until they have been completely constricted.. .after the squirming and kicking. While a human can't constrict like a snake... We can defiantly kill the rat in a quicker less traumatic way than constriction by quickly separating the spinal cord from the head.

Our society likes to shy away from death. Our society doesn't even want to realize that the burger we eat used to be a cow in a field. Our society in some ways prefers to think meat suddenly appears wrapped in plastic in a grocery store. I prefer to remember and honor where food animals come from whether that's for my family's table or my snake's weekly meals.
I completely agree with that... People have been sheltered from the oldest animal behavior on earth. A lot of people have lost touch with the reality that in order organism to live... another must die. It is like that for every organism on earth.


Wow... When I found this site I started typing the most I have since college. Thanks again for the discussion...

Oh and Frankykeno ... 26 snakes at home... One day... One Day