Converting from f/t to live....

[SoCaliSon]

This is very true in nature it is use it or lose it, but not in a few yr span it happens over thousands of generations. Just as we don’t use our appendix, or tonsils, and giraffes have long necks.

You are speaking of physical charachteristics... I am speaking of instictual behaviors... It only takes a few generations to breed out a behavior.

[SoCaliSon]

As always I hope I did not step on anyones toes... Just enjoying chatting with some other experienced folks and sharing thoughts! And please if you don't agree... I really do love to know why... I always end up learning a lot from these convo's. Take Care...

[rabernet]

As always I hope I did not step on anyones toes... Just enjoying chatting with some other experienced folks and sharing thoughts! And please if you don't agree... I really do love to know why... I always end up learning a lot from these convo's. Take Care...

No toes stepped on here - I also enjoy a good discussion and helping to dispel myths.

[frankykeno]

I started stunning when I rescued a BP that was partially blind casue of badly capped eyes from poor husbandry. I wanted her to eat live... but she was at a disadvantage becasue of her sight... Now her eyes are all cleared up and she snipes active rats from almost 2 feet away. I have no prob feeding her active rats now considering she gets them right around the snout eachtime keeping there head bit shut, while she constricts.

As has been mentioned, but it's worth repeating again, ball pythons are not sight hunters. It would be pretty well useless to them to be sight hunters since their natural world deep in an wild rat burrow or in an african termite mound doesn't include much natural lighting in order to see their prey. There are studies out there that show that snakes with labial pits, as bp's have, are at a much greater disadvantage if their pits are inactive, but show almost no change in hunting pattern if their sight is impaired.

I would think that in the big picture Evolution has proved that every animal behavior on planet earth is "use it or lose it". An animals behaviors and its means of living come from the environment around them and the most Basic Instict of all... Survival. If you take away an animals need to hunt... Eventually it will forget how to hunt. If you put a perfectly healthy person on a machine that breathes for them... And take them off of it 20 years later... Most likely they have lost touch with the preprogrammed part of our brain that tells us we need to breathe. Take a person who has been in bed for over a year... They need physical rehabilitation to be able to walk again, That is a muscualr and not a mental issue but may still apply. I have seen snakes fed only on F/T that eventually stop constricting... Why? Probably becasue they have learned they don't have to.

Anyway... The point I am getting at... Is animal instincts are programmed into them based on their needs for survival in the wild. Animals, ESPECIALLY CAPTIVE BRED, can loose touch with the preprogrammed behaviors if we take away the need for that behavior in the animals survival. Over time the captive animals will evelove in such a way that there will be a major difference from in the animal wild to captive. Look at dogs. These are animals that have drastically evolved from their basic inticts in the wild to life with humans. Every dog I ever owned couldn't hunt for a meal if it's life depended on it. Even though just a few generations back he would have been born a hunter. It doesn't take many generations to breed a behavior out of an animal.

Food for thought... I hope that makes some sense.

This is all pretty fascinating stuff, however, some points you've skipped over. Evolution doesn't work in a few short years. Ball pythons haven't been kept in captive situations in any way, shape or form long enough for us measly humans to affect their evolutionary process. To think we have done that, is to be very overly impressed with ourselves I think.

Also evolution is not the same as physical inactivity of muscle structure as in your patient in bed example. That's a function of illness or inactivity - not evolution.

Dogs again are a poor example since their changes were achieved through selective breeding for specific physical change suited to a job or look humans wanted for them. Ball pythons are not being selectively bred for major physical changes. A high priced morph BP is nothing more than a normal BP with a slightly fancier paint job. Under that skin is p. regius with all the instincts and abilities nature put there.

Now as far as prey, whether or not you care for rats as far as I'm concerned, they deserve the respect of a prey animal that is the sole reason you are not sitting on a computer talking about your dead snake. Provide the most perfect enclosure, provide water, bedding, whatever....without that prey item....you've eventually got one dead snake. The predator/prey dynamic is the single most important aspect and both parties to that dynamic deserve the respect due them (at least in my not always so humble opinion).

You don't have to make a huge deal over the rodents, but treating them inhumanely, disregarding their vital role both in captive and wild environments is to my mind, a very short sighted way to look at things.

As far as the original question, there is an in between place which for Mike and I never includes stunning. If the OP wishes to feed live they can always offer live in the form of a rat fuzzy that has no erupted teeth. With the work beforehand to ask about and study how to live feed successfully, pre-scenting the area, introducting a basically harmles live prey item and good monitoring there's no common sense reason it will not work. As the snake is observed it can be ascertained how efficient it's hunting methods are on live prey and a feeding program tailored to it's needs.

We do this with any snake we have that we do not have information on it's previous life (rescues, adoptions, etc.). It allows us to assess the situation and make informed decisions for the snake. It seems to be working since we've been live feeding quite a while now on quite a number of snakes from three different species and I've yet to see a problem.

[SoCaliSon]

As has been mentioned, but it's worth repeating again, ball pythons are not sight hunters. It would be pretty well useless to them to be sight hunters since their natural world deep in an wild rat burrow or in an african termite mound doesn't include much natural lighting in order to see their prey. There are studies out there that show that snakes with labial pits, as bp's have, are at a much greater disadvantage if their pits are inactive, but show almost no change in hunting pattern if their sight is impaired.



This is all pretty fascinating stuff, however, some points you've skipped over. Evolution doesn't work in a few short years. Ball pythons haven't been kept in captive situations in any way, shape or form long enough for us measly humans to affect their evolutionary process. To think we have done that, is to be very overly impressed with ourselves I think.

Also evolution is not the same as physical inactivity of muscle structure as in your patient in bed example. That's a function of illness or inactivity - not evolution.

Dogs again are a poor example since their changes were achieved through selective breeding for specific physical change suited to a job or look humans wanted for them. Ball pythons are not being selectively bred for major physical changes. A high priced morph BP is nothing more than a normal BP with a slightly fancier paint job. Under that skin is p. regius with all the instincts and abilities nature put there.

Now as far as prey, whether or not you care for rats as far as I'm concerned, they deserve the respect of a prey animal that is the sole reason you are not sitting on a computer talking about your dead snake. Provide the most perfect enclosure, provide water, bedding, whatever....without that prey item....you've eventually got one dead snake. The predator/prey dynamic is the single most important aspect and both parties to that dynamic deserve the respect due them (at least in my not always so humble opinion).

You don't have to make a huge deal over the rodents, but treating them inhumanely, disregarding their vital role both in captive and wild environments is to my mind, a very short sighted way to look at things.

As far as the original question, there is an in between place which for Mike and I never includes stunning. If the OP wishes to feed live they can always offer live in the form of a rat fuzzy that has no erupted teeth. With the work beforehand to ask about and study how to live feed successfully, pre-scenting the area, introducting a basically harmles live prey item and good monitoring there's no common sense reason it will not work. As the snake is observed it can be ascertained how efficient it's hunting methods are on live prey and a feeding program tailored to it's needs.

We do this with any snake we have that we do not have information on it's previous life (rescues, adoptions, etc.). It allows us to assess the situation and make informed decisions for the snake. It seems to be working since we've been live feeding quite a while now on quite a number of snakes from three different species and I've yet to see a problem.

Great Points! You are right about the heat pits... At the time I thought that the heat pits were just there to assist the whole process. I was just trying to be carefull, with a sick snake that I had never fed before.

I thought of evolution...But I believe you are right... Maybe evolution has nothing to do with it. The point that I was trying to make is that animals, especially in captivity can lose touch with their instinctual behaviors, if you provide an environment where either they can't or don't have to practice that behavior in order to survive. Like I said... I have seen snakes stop constricting (Not all do), but I have seen it... from eating F/T weekly for years. In that case the F/T was just left laying in the bin, and the snake would just casually unhinge and start to swallow with as much as a strike or a wrap. Rare yes... but it can happen and it's not hard to understand why it would.

I am an animal lover... And I do love ALL animals and the roles they play! I know that without that rats death, my snake would die... And I do respect that. But you can't tell me that years and years of you sending these little rodents to their death had not desensatized you at least a little. They are born prey items. I have total respect fo the rat as a prey item... And personally I actually find it a bit more humane for the rat to stun them prior to feeding. If I was going to be eaten... I probably wouldn't want to be concious for the last minutes. As a matter of fact... if I were being constricted by a giant anaconda I would probably be praying for a bullet to the head. Some might go as far to say that me stunning the rat is showing to much compasion or respect for the rat. Fact is if I stun I don't stun for the sake of the rat... Even though i think it makes it less traumatic for the rat, thats not why I do it. I take pride in the fact that my snakes eat fresh and not frozen... and at the same time I don't have to worry about that one freak incident where the rat will get the best of the snake. It's healthy... safe... and humane if you ask me. This is not my personal opinion but most of the general public will call you cruel for dumping a live rat in with a snake as the rat has no chance of escape and is doomed from the get go. People find it cruel that we instigate a situation where one animal is put in to be killed and eaten by another animal. They view it as cruel because the rat does suffer. I just don't understand how you could consider it inhumane to stun them... when you are about to send them to a pretty traumatic death as it is.

I really like your idea of feeding the fuzzies... actually alot better than stunning... I will keep that in mind for the future. I totally agree with using that method in this case. That makes perfect sense.

And also in defense of myself... A rat in my feeder bin = prey, a rat outside in the yard is a wild rodent (serves many roles in the ecosystem). A rat loose in my house = PEST that is a risk of infestation and poses sanitary issue. I would never kill a rat that was outside in it's natural habitat minding it's own buisness, and I never disregard the role that these animals play in nature... Nor will I disregard the roll they are trying to play when they get into my walls and try to reproduce. I wish I could remember which thread i read it on but somebody made a funny comment saying that everytime before they thump that rat and drop 'em in they feel a sense of justice by saying "This is for the Black Plague."

Thanks for the informative post!

[frankykeno]

You are speaking of physical charachteristics... I am speaking of instictual behaviors... It only takes a few generations to breed out a behavior.

I don't want in anyway to continue to pick at your posts but this does need addressed as well. This would mean that there's no explanation for a very well fed, bred for generations pet house cat to go outside and proceed to hunt and kill various birds, squirrels, etc. Yet year after year many pet cats that have never known a moment of hunger proceed to do so. Instinct is a VERY hard thing to breed out of any creature even after hundreds of years of captive and selective breeding.

Great Points! You are right about the heat pits... At the time I thought that the heat pits were just there to assist the whole process. I was just trying to be carefull, with a sick snake that I had never fed before.

I applaud you for that. A sick snake that you are not sure of should be fed with extreme attention to detail.

I thought of evolution...But I believe you are right... Maybe evolution has nothing to do with it. The point that I was trying to make is that animals, especially in captivity can lose touch with their instinctual behaviors, if you provide an environment where either they can't or don't have to practice that behavior in order to survive. Like I said... I have seen snakes stop constricting (Not all do), but I have seen it... from eating F/T weekly for years. In that case the F/T was just left laying in the bin, and the snake would just casually unhinge and start to swallow with as much as a strike or a wrap. Rare yes... but it can happen and it's not hard to understand why it would.

Actually I think I can explain that behaviour. Snakes constrict life prey until their well tuned senses tell them that prey is dead and of no further risk to them aka ready to eat. A snake being offered already dead prey may constrict it (I've actually seen them excessively constrict waiting apparently for signs of life that are not there) or may having sensed the prey is expired, simply eat it. They aren't losing any instincts if you think about it, they are simply using their instincts properly. Why constrict, therefore wasting precious energy, if constriction is not required. Snakes from what I've observed are very good about not expending energy needlessly.

I am an animal lover... And I do love ALL animals and the roles they play! I know that without that rats death, my snake would die... And I do respect that. But you can't tell me that years and years of you sending these little rodents to their death had not desensatized you at least a little.

Actually, I'm more on the side of spoiling my rat colony to the point of naming and retiring valued adult breeders. I'm sure some here think I go far too far with that LOL. I see myself much as the farmers I grew up around. While I may name and value the permanent breeding stock, I know full well why they are there and why they are producing offspring.

Over the years of feeding off literally thousands of rats I'd say I'm even more impressed and honored to be part of this predator and prey interaction. There is nothing insensitive about recognizing my role in this and fulfilling it to the best of my ability - both for the snakes and for the rats that sustain them.

As a last note, and one that I'm not at all ashamed of. I have sat with a precious old breeder rat wrapped in a towel and shed tears as he or she passed away from old age. They may be "just" rats and never fully pets but they deserve my care and thanks for being such a vital part of why my family can keep the snakes we do. Being engaging, interesting animals in their own right allows me the luxury of understanding and enjoying their role in our home.

They are born prey items. I have total respect fo the rat as a prey item... And personally I actually find it a bit more humane for the rat to stun them prior to feeding. If I was going to be eaten... I probably wouldn't want to be concious for the last minutes. As a matter of fact... if I were being constricted by a giant anaconda I would probably be praying for a bullet to the head. Some might go as far to say that me stunning the rat is showing to much compasion or respect for the rat.

Being a person who always is nuts about research and deciding to live feed, I did some research. The act of constriction is so supremely well designed that I seriously do not feel any human can replicate it in a physical manner. We simply are not equipped with the reflexes and muscle structure inherent in constrictors. I've watched, week after week, snakes from 45 grams up to over 7 lbs in weight, hunt and kill their prey. 26 times tonight I'll be feeding live rats and had I the ability I would show you that there is no rats screaming in pain, no rats doing much of anything other than immediately expiring in a manner that is likely far more humane and fast than most of the ways us humans pass from this life.

Fact is if I stun I don't stun for the sake of the rat... Even though i think it makes it less traumatic for the rat, thats not why I do it. I take pride in the fact that my snakes eat fresh and not frozen... and at the same time I don't have to worry about that one freak incident where the rat will get the best of the snake. It's healthy... safe... and humane if you ask me. This is not my personal opinion but most of the general public will call you cruel for dumping a live rat in with a snake as the rat has no chance of escape and is doomed from the get go. People find it cruel that we instigate a situation where one animal is put in to be killed and eaten by another animal. They view it as cruel because the rat does suffer. I just don't understand how you could consider it inhumane to stun them... when you are about to send them to a pretty traumatic death as it is.

You should feed in the way you feel is best and that your snakes will accept willingly. That's always the best way. However, before you discount another method you need to understand it fully. Most of the "general public" think I'm a freak for having 26 snakes in our house and believe at any time they will all somehow get loose and eat my kids. In other words, the "general public" is generally ill informed and can't be bothered to learn before they form an opinion.

Again, the rat does not "suffer". A suffering creature as responsive and verbal as rats are would cry out. Current research on constriction has shown it is not purely strangulation. Strangling a prey item is a long process and puts the snake at risk. Constriction is more of a process of immediately shutting down circulatory systems, in effect causing a massive and immediate stopping of the heat and lungs. In larger constrictors there can also be a snapping of the spine. Basically an immediate, bloodless death and probably one of the cleanest, quickest kills in the animal kingdom.

It's no more "traumatic" than a massive heart attack would be to a human being or your neck being snapped. It's over and it's done and it's death. Death happens. Our society likes to shy away from death. Our society doesn't even want to realize that the burger we eat used to be a cow in a field. Our society in some ways prefers to think meat suddenly appears wrapped in plastic in a grocery store. I prefer to remember and honor where food animals come from whether that's for my family's table or my snake's weekly meals.

I really like your idea of feeding the fuzzies... actually alot better than stunning... I will keep that in mind for the future. I totally agree with using that method in this case. That makes perfect sense.

You might find it a handy thing to try. We've found it works here quite well.

And also in defense of myself... A rat in my feeder bin = prey, a rat outside in the yard is a wild rodent (serves many roles in the ecosystem). A rat loose in my house = PEST that is a risk of infestation and poses sanitary issue. I would never kill a rat that was outside in it's natural habitat minding it's own buisness, and I never disregard the role that these animals play in nature... Nor will I disregard the roll they are trying to play when they get into my walls and try to reproduce. I wish I could remember which thread i read it on but somebody made a funny comment saying that everytime before they thump that rat and drop 'em in they feel a sense of justice by saying "This is for the Black Plague."

Don't get me wrong or think I'm a PETA bunny/tree hugger LOL. I grew up country. We ate meat my father hunted. I learned to gut a duck at 8 years old because my hands were smaller than my brothers. I was taught very early about the respect hunters have for nature and her bounty but I also learned some animals are food and not just cute critters in a Disney movie

A rat or mouse in my house, chewing into my groceries, is a pest and it's dispatched. If it wants to live outside and go about it's business that's just fine. Come into my nice, clean kitchen - we're going to have issues LOL.[/Quote]

Thanks for the informative post!

You're very welcome. Part of the enjoyment of this site is that people that don't share the exact same ideas can have a respectable, interesting debate where everyone hopefully learns something.

[soy.lor.n]

not to be picky (albeit quite off topic lol) but *doesn't* evolution occur almost exclusively over just a small number of years?

That's the way they always present it in bio classes. Nothing happens for millions of years and then BAM! And as for humans influencing evolution, just look at the peppered moth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

But anyway, things that are learned are, basically, not passed on to the offspring. So evolution still isn't really important to this topic, I don't think. However, if the keeper is a f/t feeder, and the snake has something in its genetic code to make it better at eating f/t than the wildtype snakes....then evolution might play a role lol

[SoCaliSon]

I don't want in anyway to continue to pick at your posts but this does need addressed as well. This would mean that there's no explanation for a very well fed, bred for generations pet house cat to go outside and proceed to hunt and kill various birds, squirrels, etc. Yet year after year many pet cats that have never known a moment of hunger proceed to do so. Instinct is a VERY hard thing to breed out of any creature even after hundreds of years of captive and selective breeding.

When you not only read what I have to say, but you take the time to have an educated discussion on the topic ... I take it as a compliment. Please continue to dig at my ideas... It's why I take the time to think out loud on the forum... I've said it before... but discussions like this are the fuel for progressive thinking.

On another note... I love the topic you touched on about cats. Your completely right... The common house cat is the worlds #1 killer, killing more animals in the wild (like you said birds and what not) yearly than any other animal(captive or wild) on planet earth. But the valid point that you made about breeding certain behaviors into dogs is exactly the reason "a very well fed, bred for generations pet house cat" will "go outside and proceed to hunt and kill various birds, squirrels, etc." Because the common house cat was domesticated in the middle ages and bred for that exact purpose. They were exterminators, and they were rewarded for their kills. Thats why some cats will bring a kill and leave on your front porch or next to the slider door for you. They think they are doing you a favor. They are displaying there work. Maybe next time your cat does this you should give them a treat. It may be because of them being bred for this behavior (seeing as most documentation shows wild cats only kill for survival)... that house cats have been proven to be one of a small group of animals on earth that will kill for "fun". The well fed cats you refer to don't kill for hunger... They go inside for the whiskas for that. Maybe they kill it just out playfulness, or maybe its the remnants of the very reason cats were domesticated in the first place, but we know that it has nothing to do with any kind of survival instinct.

Actually I think I can explain that behaviour. Snakes constrict life prey until their well tuned senses tell them that prey is dead and of no further risk to them aka ready to eat. A snake being offered already dead prey may constrict it (I've actually seen them excessively constrict waiting apparently for signs of life that are not there) or may having sensed the prey is expired, simply eat it. They aren't losing any instincts if you think about it, they are simply using their instincts properly. Why constrict, therefore wasting precious energy, if constriction is not required. Snakes from what I've observed are very good about not expending energy needlessly.

You make good points... And what you said is correct. But I personally feel that it is not in the nature of snakes to consume dead prey. So while I agree that the snake has realized that the rat is already dead; therefore doesn't need to be constricted... At that point you have trained a natural predator to feed as a scavenger... Too far from their natural behavior for my liking! IMO if you feed p/k prey you should always find a way into fooling the snake that it is making a kill.

As a last note, and one that I'm not at all ashamed of. I have sat with a precious old breeder rat wrapped in a towel and shed tears as he or she passed away from old age. They may be "just" rats and never fully pets but they deserve my care and thanks for being such a vital part of why my family can keep the snakes we do. Being engaging, interesting animals in their own right allows me the luxury of understanding and enjoying their role in our home.

I understand what your saying... I gain an emotional attachment to any animal I spend extended time with. Actually this is part of the reason I don't breed my own feeders for my snakes (roaches for my lizards are another story). I've had pet rats before... and even a pet store feeder can be loved as a pet. I find it difficult feed off little mammals that I raised myself as I would probably become attached at some point. Now if I was lucky enough to have a collection like yours () I would defiantly be raising a nice healthy feeder colony.

26 times tonight I'll be feeding live rats and had I the ability I would show you that there is no rats screaming in pain, no rats doing much of anything other than immediately expiring in a manner that is likely far more humane and fast than most of the ways us humans pass from this life.

Hmmm... I don't know. In my experience I would have to disagree with that. Currently I feed a BP and a RTB weekly. I have cared for many different snakes in my ten years or so of herping and in my experience it is not uncommon to hear the rat squeal or screech when it gets snagged for dinner. And while i could see it being quick after the neck is snapped... I have never seen one living feeding result in "immediate" death. There is always kicking and squirming for at least a couple of seconds until circulation is completely lost. And if the neck gets snapped it is normally not until they have been completely constricted.. .after the squirming and kicking. While a human can't constrict like a snake... We can defiantly kill the rat in a quicker less traumatic way than constriction by quickly separating the spinal cord from the head.

Our society likes to shy away from death. Our society doesn't even want to realize that the burger we eat used to be a cow in a field. Our society in some ways prefers to think meat suddenly appears wrapped in plastic in a grocery store. I prefer to remember and honor where food animals come from whether that's for my family's table or my snake's weekly meals.

I completely agree with that... People have been sheltered from the oldest animal behavior on earth. A lot of people have lost touch with the reality that in order organism to live... another must die. It is like that for every organism on earth.


Wow... When I found this site I started typing the most I have since college. Thanks again for the discussion...

Oh and Frankykeno ... 26 snakes at home... One day... One Day

[frankykeno]

Feel free to come home clean up the snake poop, urates, sheds and so forth from the 26 LOL. They aren't hard creatures to care for but once you pass 20 of them, it is a fair bit of daily work and record keeping.

You make a lot of interesting points and it's been interesting considering it all.

The point you made about cats though again illustrates my idea that there is only so much instinct that human driven conditioning can breed out of any creature. Cat's weren't bred to hunt mice for us, we simply took advantage of their instincts to do so. Even over all the time cats have been in human contact, even with no need to hunt to fill their bellies, quite a lot of cats will still hunt and do it with deadly efficiency. They will still bring half-dead prey home to their kittens in almost the exact same manner a cheetah female brings home a struggling gazelle calf to teach her cubs the rudiments of hunting, even though our pet cat's kittens will never need to know how to hunt to eat.

I think we humans in our usual manner believe we have a far greater affect on mother nature's creatures than we likely do.

With snakes, conditioning them to take f/t or p/k prey isn't turning them into scavengers in my opinion. A true scavenger eats cold dead things, things that may even be rotting (i.e. buzzards, etc.). Some hunting animals do scavenge to keep their bellies full if prey isn't found. Ball pythons for me aren't a true scavenger because their non-dead prey must show some signs of life for them to see them as prey. When it comes to f/t feeders, that's usually heat and we see a lot of owners here feeding f/t incorrectly and getting refusals. Once they make sure the f/t prey is warm enough, or wiggle it on tongs, the snake reacts. A true scavenger wouldn't care....food is food...warm and "alive"...or cold and dead.

Conditioning a behaviour for our convenience is one thing, having long term effect on evolution in a creature so basic and perfectly designed already, I'm not so sure of, that remains to be seen.

[littleindiangirl]

I feel like I have to jump in a little bit here.

Instincts and drives and behaviors and habits are all different things.

Humans have no instincts. All we have are drives. Drives to reproduce, drives to eat, drives to clean ourselves, drives to survive. None of those are instincts. That is the first thing taught in most psychology classes.

Since I'm bad at describing things, I got this from dictionary.com (I have no psych books in front of me at the moment)
An instinct is a propensity prior to experience, and independent of instructions and Specif., the natural, unreasoning, impulse by which an animal is guided to the performance of any action, without of improvement in the method

I think that is a perfect description of instinct.

Behavior and habit resemble instincts, but is still different because it can be modified and changed from experiences, and I believe can be modified on a micro basis for generations or on a single basis.

Everything your describing to me socali is micro evolution and modifying behaviors in this animal for a satisfactory reaction to certain stimuli. (i.e. Tap on head with hook to notify snake we are not feeding)

We can modify their behaviors, but I don't believe that we are at all changing their instincts.

Like I said, that is what little I remember from psych. I think you are describing something closely in great detail to behavior modification, but giving it the wrong label of evolution and breeding out instincts. If that makes sense.

Ok, carry on.