Converting from f/t to live....

[SoCaliSon]

I started stunning when I rescued a BP that was partially blind casue of badly capped eyes from poor husbandry. I wanted her to eat live... but she was at a disadvantage becasue of her sight... Now her eyes are all cleared up and she snipes active rats from almost 2 feet away. I have no prob feeding her active rats now considering she gets them right around the snout eachtime keeping there head bit shut, while she constricts.

[Jenn]

Shouldn't be a problem at all for you. I have switched all of my snakes from FT to live. Just pre-scent and when the snake begins to hunt just drop the prey in the other end. Easy peasy!!!

[SatanicIntention]

They don't use their eyes to capture prey, they use their heat pits.. That's what they are there for. A rescuer I know has a juvie Ball who doesn't have ANY eyes and that snake strikes and coils live prey like no one's business. They are very capable of what they do naturally.

Do not stun, it is inhumane and can easily cause more harm to your snake than good, especially if that prey item wakes up. It's going to be very scared, very much in pain, and very disoriented. Why would you want to expose your snake to that? Dropping in a calm, curious, and unsuspecting.

[SoCaliSon]

I have to disagree with only a few points. A snakes instinct to strike and coil is an instinct from birth. A snake raised on FT still knows how to strike and coil FT prey, although they may be a little awkward when they strike, they instinctively know what they are doing.

To the OP
In my experience, the snakes raised on FT are more excited and alert when given a live animal. They are usually the ones that will nearly take my head off, and squeeze the crap out of the rat. Mine have always overcompensated when introduced to a live animal, and as they get used to it, tend to relax more with experience and gain confidence in regards to energy expenditure to kill the rat.

It's not a use it or lose it talent in my humble opinion. I do heartedly disagree with stunning, but I have been down that path of debate, so let us keep on topic. I hope some of my experience is useful to the OP.

Just my .02 cents

I understand why some dont agree with stunning...And I won't drift to that topic anymore... I just wanted to point out one more thing.

I would think that in the big picture Evolution has proved that every animal behavior on planet earth is "use it or lose it". An animals behaviors and its means of living come from the environment around them and the most Basic Instict of all... Survival. If you take away an animals need to hunt... Eventually it will forget how to hunt. If you put a perfectly healthy person on a machine that breathes for them... And take them off of it 20 years later... Most likely they have lost touch with the preprogrammed part of our brain that tells us we need to breathe. Take a person who has been in bed for over a year... They need physical rehabilitation to be able to walk again, That is a muscualr and not a mental issue but may still apply. I have seen snakes fed only on F/T that eventually stop constricting... Why? Probably becasue they have learned they don't have to.

Anyway... The point I am getting at... Is animal instincts are programmed into them based on their needs for survival in the wild. Animals, ESPECIALLY CAPTIVE BRED, can loose touch with the preprogrammed behaviors if we take away the need for that behavior in the animals survival. Over time the captive animals will evelove in such a way that there will be a major difference from in the animal wild to captive. Look at dogs. These are animals that have drastically evolved from their basic inticts in the wild to life with humans. Every dog I ever owned couldn't hunt for a meal if it's life depended on it. Even though just a few generations back he would have been born a hunter. It doesn't take many generations to breed a behavior out of an animal.

Food for thought... I hope that makes some sense.

[Jenn]

Not true. I dropped a rat in with a full grown adult sunglow corn who was raised on FT and never had a live prey item. He struck and killed that rat like a champ and has been on live ever since.

[SoCaliSon]

They don't use their eyes to capture prey, they use their heat pits.. That's what they are there for. A rescuer I know has a juvie Ball who doesn't have ANY eyes and that snake strikes and coils live prey like no one's business. They are very capable of what they do naturally.

Do not stun, it is inhumane and can easily cause more harm to your snake than good, especially if that prey item wakes up. It's going to be very scared, very much in pain, and very disoriented. Why would you want to expose your snake to that? Dropping in a calm, curious, and unsuspecting.

You know... I knew that and for some reason still thought that it would inhibit her somehow... I guess you are right. My stunned rats are awake and kicking...Cause when I get them home in that paper bag... They are anything but calm and curious... They are freaking out... And if they go in totally live... You can see the moment where the Rat realizes he's not alone and that the snake is a threat... Most likely they wont get another breathe in after that point. It is obvious... a perfectly aware rat is more likely to fight back than one with it's wits knocked out.

Humane? I care about my snakes well being... I could care less about the rat that was bred for food. When I find a rat from outside in my house I kill it. A lot of pepole think feeding my snake live is inhumane... That is their opinion, But it is up to me to make sure I am doing what is best for my snake.

SatanicIntention: You made some good points that make sense while supporting YOUR OPINION. I don't agree with the WAY you state your OPINION like it is the only acceptable way. I know many responsible keepers who stun their rats because... In their opinion... It is what is safest for their snakes. Frankly your opinion on that point makes no sense to me... But I respect that you have formed your own oppinion through your own research and experiences. I don't state anything in absolutes...

If someone says "Don't feed your snake live aware prey, It could fight back and seriously injure your snake." I don't agree with that statement either... But the fact is there are thousands of responsible herpers on both sides of that line... Lets just make sure we keep both sides of the coin in mind.

[Inknsteel]

I have a question that I don't see was posed before in this thread. Exactly what kind of live prey item are you wanting to offer? If your snake is 500g, I would think you wouldn't need to offer anything bigger than a weaned rat. If this is the case, it is my understanding that a live weaned rat isn't really capable of harming the snake. Of course, you'll still want to supervise the feeding from start to finish, but I don't see any danger, nor any need to stun the rat.

From my very limited experience, being that I only own one snake and have converted her from f/t to live, I had no problem at all. I started with live adult mice. Dropped the mouse in the tub with my snake and within about 30 seconds she had the mouse coiled... If you are feeding larger prey and/or are worried about harm to your snake, you could offer the live prey with feeding tongs. Adam (8ballpythons) has a great video showing this method... Whatever you end up doing, good luck with it!

[771subliminal]

I would think that in the big picture Evolution has proved that every animal behavior on planet earth is "use it or lose it".

This is very true in nature it is use it or lose it, but not in a few yr span it happens over thousands of generations. Just as we don’t use our appendix, or tonsils, and giraffes have long necks.

[rabernet]

Anyway... I completly agree that your method should be safe... For a snake USED to feeding Live. I recommend stunning in the beggining simply as a safety precaution for what might happen. Better safe than sorry, and once something happens it is already too late. There will ALWAYS be a risk while feeding live aware prey... The same danger exists in the wild.

Every snake that's been brought into my collection is offered live, even if they've been life long f/t feeders. In my own sampling of over 3000 live prey fed off, I've never had an injury to any of my snakes, including those who have been raised their entire lives on f/t. I've said it before, even if I'd had just ONE injury, that risk calculates to .0003% chance of injury from live, un-stunned prey being fed off.

I hear the arguments of the danger of offering, as you put it "live aware prey" from many people - but my own experiences just don't validate the risk.

I also am not feeding medium and large adult rats to my snakes either - they are getting no larger than a small/small live rat. If they are exceptionally big girls, they may get two small/small live rats. The rats have no clue that the snake poses any danger to them until it's too late. They're usually quite content to sit in a corner and groom themselves or explore the enclosure if I have a snake that's just not interested that week.

To sum it up - in my personal experience I have not experienced any difference in the level of killing prowess from a lifelong f/t feeder offered their first live prey, or those who have been lifelong live feeders.

With that said - I'm not encouraging anyone to feed live over f/t, nor am I encouraging anyone to feed f/t over live. I think either works just as well for what the keeper is most comfortable with. What I am trying to discourage is the over-dramatized "danger" of feeding live, when if done as outlined above is a negligable risk.

[SoCaliSon]

Not true. I dropped a rat in with a full grown adult sunglow corn who was raised on FT and never had a live prey item. He struck and killed that rat like a champ and has been on live ever since.

I was by no means saying that all snakes raised on F/T would not know how to handle live prey. I was not speaking in absolutes... I was saying that there is more of a chance that the snake would not know how to handle it if it was raised only on F/T... And just as a safety precaution should should ease them into it becasue we all know what does sometimes and could happen. Most snakes will do just as you said... But all it takes is one instnance to confirm the opposite. Ever heard of better safe than sorry? I am all for feeding live... But I just recommend easing a snake into it because of the potential risk especially if the snake has been raised feeding as a scavenger and not as a predator.