Quote Originally Posted by SoCaliSon View Post
You are speaking of physical charachteristics... I am speaking of instictual behaviors... It only takes a few generations to breed out a behavior.
I don't want in anyway to continue to pick at your posts but this does need addressed as well. This would mean that there's no explanation for a very well fed, bred for generations pet house cat to go outside and proceed to hunt and kill various birds, squirrels, etc. Yet year after year many pet cats that have never known a moment of hunger proceed to do so. Instinct is a VERY hard thing to breed out of any creature even after hundreds of years of captive and selective breeding.

Quote Originally Posted by SoCaliSon View Post
Great Points! You are right about the heat pits... At the time I thought that the heat pits were just there to assist the whole process. I was just trying to be carefull, with a sick snake that I had never fed before.
I applaud you for that. A sick snake that you are not sure of should be fed with extreme attention to detail.

I thought of evolution...But I believe you are right... Maybe evolution has nothing to do with it. The point that I was trying to make is that animals, especially in captivity can lose touch with their instinctual behaviors, if you provide an environment where either they can't or don't have to practice that behavior in order to survive. Like I said... I have seen snakes stop constricting (Not all do), but I have seen it... from eating F/T weekly for years. In that case the F/T was just left laying in the bin, and the snake would just casually unhinge and start to swallow with as much as a strike or a wrap. Rare yes... but it can happen and it's not hard to understand why it would.
Actually I think I can explain that behaviour. Snakes constrict life prey until their well tuned senses tell them that prey is dead and of no further risk to them aka ready to eat. A snake being offered already dead prey may constrict it (I've actually seen them excessively constrict waiting apparently for signs of life that are not there) or may having sensed the prey is expired, simply eat it. They aren't losing any instincts if you think about it, they are simply using their instincts properly. Why constrict, therefore wasting precious energy, if constriction is not required. Snakes from what I've observed are very good about not expending energy needlessly.

I am an animal lover... And I do love ALL animals and the roles they play! I know that without that rats death, my snake would die... And I do respect that. But you can't tell me that years and years of you sending these little rodents to their death had not desensatized you at least a little.
Actually, I'm more on the side of spoiling my rat colony to the point of naming and retiring valued adult breeders. I'm sure some here think I go far too far with that LOL. I see myself much as the farmers I grew up around. While I may name and value the permanent breeding stock, I know full well why they are there and why they are producing offspring.

Over the years of feeding off literally thousands of rats I'd say I'm even more impressed and honored to be part of this predator and prey interaction. There is nothing insensitive about recognizing my role in this and fulfilling it to the best of my ability - both for the snakes and for the rats that sustain them.

As a last note, and one that I'm not at all ashamed of. I have sat with a precious old breeder rat wrapped in a towel and shed tears as he or she passed away from old age. They may be "just" rats and never fully pets but they deserve my care and thanks for being such a vital part of why my family can keep the snakes we do. Being engaging, interesting animals in their own right allows me the luxury of understanding and enjoying their role in our home.

They are born prey items. I have total respect fo the rat as a prey item... And personally I actually find it a bit more humane for the rat to stun them prior to feeding. If I was going to be eaten... I probably wouldn't want to be concious for the last minutes. As a matter of fact... if I were being constricted by a giant anaconda I would probably be praying for a bullet to the head. Some might go as far to say that me stunning the rat is showing to much compasion or respect for the rat.
Being a person who always is nuts about research and deciding to live feed, I did some research. The act of constriction is so supremely well designed that I seriously do not feel any human can replicate it in a physical manner. We simply are not equipped with the reflexes and muscle structure inherent in constrictors. I've watched, week after week, snakes from 45 grams up to over 7 lbs in weight, hunt and kill their prey. 26 times tonight I'll be feeding live rats and had I the ability I would show you that there is no rats screaming in pain, no rats doing much of anything other than immediately expiring in a manner that is likely far more humane and fast than most of the ways us humans pass from this life.

Fact is if I stun I don't stun for the sake of the rat... Even though i think it makes it less traumatic for the rat, thats not why I do it. I take pride in the fact that my snakes eat fresh and not frozen... and at the same time I don't have to worry about that one freak incident where the rat will get the best of the snake. It's healthy... safe... and humane if you ask me. This is not my personal opinion but most of the general public will call you cruel for dumping a live rat in with a snake as the rat has no chance of escape and is doomed from the get go. People find it cruel that we instigate a situation where one animal is put in to be killed and eaten by another animal. They view it as cruel because the rat does suffer. I just don't understand how you could consider it inhumane to stun them... when you are about to send them to a pretty traumatic death as it is.
You should feed in the way you feel is best and that your snakes will accept willingly. That's always the best way. However, before you discount another method you need to understand it fully. Most of the "general public" think I'm a freak for having 26 snakes in our house and believe at any time they will all somehow get loose and eat my kids. In other words, the "general public" is generally ill informed and can't be bothered to learn before they form an opinion.

Again, the rat does not "suffer". A suffering creature as responsive and verbal as rats are would cry out. Current research on constriction has shown it is not purely strangulation. Strangling a prey item is a long process and puts the snake at risk. Constriction is more of a process of immediately shutting down circulatory systems, in effect causing a massive and immediate stopping of the heat and lungs. In larger constrictors there can also be a snapping of the spine. Basically an immediate, bloodless death and probably one of the cleanest, quickest kills in the animal kingdom.

It's no more "traumatic" than a massive heart attack would be to a human being or your neck being snapped. It's over and it's done and it's death. Death happens. Our society likes to shy away from death. Our society doesn't even want to realize that the burger we eat used to be a cow in a field. Our society in some ways prefers to think meat suddenly appears wrapped in plastic in a grocery store. I prefer to remember and honor where food animals come from whether that's for my family's table or my snake's weekly meals.

I really like your idea of feeding the fuzzies... actually alot better than stunning... I will keep that in mind for the future. I totally agree with using that method in this case. That makes perfect sense.
You might find it a handy thing to try. We've found it works here quite well.

And also in defense of myself... A rat in my feeder bin = prey, a rat outside in the yard is a wild rodent (serves many roles in the ecosystem). A rat loose in my house = PEST that is a risk of infestation and poses sanitary issue. I would never kill a rat that was outside in it's natural habitat minding it's own buisness, and I never disregard the role that these animals play in nature... Nor will I disregard the roll they are trying to play when they get into my walls and try to reproduce. I wish I could remember which thread i read it on but somebody made a funny comment saying that everytime before they thump that rat and drop 'em in they feel a sense of justice by saying "This is for the Black Plague."
Don't get me wrong or think I'm a PETA bunny/tree hugger LOL. I grew up country. We ate meat my father hunted. I learned to gut a duck at 8 years old because my hands were smaller than my brothers. I was taught very early about the respect hunters have for nature and her bounty but I also learned some animals are food and not just cute critters in a Disney movie

A rat or mouse in my house, chewing into my groceries, is a pest and it's dispatched. If it wants to live outside and go about it's business that's just fine. Come into my nice, clean kitchen - we're going to have issues LOL.[/Quote]

Thanks for the informative post!
You're very welcome. Part of the enjoyment of this site is that people that don't share the exact same ideas can have a respectable, interesting debate where everyone hopefully learns something.