Prices down?

[BigIan]

Simple, supply and demand is showing you that we have far far too many breeders for far too few customers.

I agree with this, everywhere I look-Kingsnake, Facebook, Fauna,, there are insane amounts of snakes up for sale and I often ask myself, are there really that many buyers to meet such a huge supply of snakes?

I think the guys that raise their animals to 'well started' i.e. $140g+, that was the buyer know they're buying a solid animal rather than one who has only eaten a max of 3 times and after the shipping stress could prove to be a finicky eater with not much body weight to support not eating for a few weeks to a month...

[Blue Apple Herps]

Welcome to the world of snakes. There are only so many buyers and yet many more people breeding. Unfortunately I think many of these people bought their spiders for $500 and a pastel for $300 a few years ago thinking they'd make a bunch of bees to sell at $1200 for an easy profit. However, that isn't the case. More stock = less demand = lower prices. Especially on single gene stuff that isn't that new (pastels, spiders, pins, etc).

And as others have said, some people just want to move their stock as fast as possible so they keep gutting prices.

Unfortunately, it's all nice and dandy to say you refuse to sell at the lower prices, but at some point you have to cut your losses. A snake is only worth what someone is willing to pay. If you disagree with that price, then you're going have that snake for a long long time. Just the way it goes.

The way it's going, double, triple, and even quad morphs are going to be the only things bringing in any decent price. I no longer have any normal females (except for my het pied breeder, who I will sell to make room for my female pied when she's up to size) so I don't get stuck with a bunch of normals and 1 gene animals. Sure I'll hatch some, but its greatly reduced by having all morph females.

I've thought for some time that the older single gene animals will become like amels and snows in corns where they will become so common their prices will be right a prices for normals.

Best thing to do is to figure out how to adapt to the market so you can keep pressing forward with your passion. Sitting back and complaining won't get you very far. I know it sucks, and I hear you, but we all have to adjust and move on.

[joebad976]

I agree with this, everywhere I look-Kingsnake, Facebook, Fauna,, there are insane amounts of snakes up for sale and I often ask myself, are there really that many buyers to meet such a huge supply of snakes?

I think the guys that raise their animals to 'well started' i.e. $140g+, that was the buyer know they're buying a solid animal rather than one who has only eaten a max of 3 times and after the shipping stress could prove to be a finicky eater with not much body weight to support not eating for a few weeks to a month...

Personally, I rather have the one that only has taken 3 meals so I can move him into my setup and get him accustomed to it. Don't get me wrong well started is great and all put not my first preference.

[gsarchie]

A lady and friend of mine who has sadly passed away gave me some sage advice after she successfully bred horses for many decades:
Breed the best to the best, and hope for the best.
With prices and a market like that, it tells me that anyone who intends to make a business of breeding and selling BP's should be pairing, at minimum, 2-3 gene males with 1-2 gene females, unless you're convinced you've found a new gene.

I disagree. The best doesn't mean a 20 gene animal but the best example of each gene. I have never bough a 2 gene animal. I buy the best examples of single genes and go from there. Does it take longer? Yes, but it gives me complete control over what I am working with.

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[Pythonfriend]

about the best way to adapt:

i think, if you want to make money, or if you are a professional and your income depends on it, you need to either be at the top or near the top, or you need to diversify. and with that i mean diversify across species.

breeding rats can cut down your cost of keeping BPs and other snakes. at the same time you can sell live and frozen thawed feeders of all sizes. at the same time you can produce pet-quality rats.

then there would be chameleons. hard to keep, even harder to breed, in females egg retention leading to death is not uncommon, but well-started captive bred chameleons can be worth double the price of an import subadult (taken out of nature), because the captive bred ones are more stable in captivity and healthier. no morphs here, they change color, they are colorful, what would be the point of having an albino or axanthic or hypo?

or hognose, or green tree pythons. or maybe even spiders. when 100 of these really tiny tarantula larvas hatch and you get 40 up to size for sale, thats a lot of money, but its REALLY hard to do.

also there are species that are critically endangered or even extinct in the wild, but present in the market due to captive breeding. not only does it generate intense warm fuzzy feelings deep inside when you manage to breed something that is extinct as a species in the wild and that only a handful of people on the planet breed, but you might also turn a decent profit.

People that successfully breed BPs and even turned a profit for a while are EXPERTS, its an ACCOMPLISHMENT to get it done. its sad when they then cannot sell their product and re-coup their costs because of an overheated market, BUT THEY ARE STILL EXPERTS. there are around 3000 species of snakes and only around a third of them are venomous. And most of them are small. Some are tiny. Many are endangered. Many are facing extinction in the wild.


So for all that are successfully breeding BPs but cannot get near the top, maybe the next project should not be bamboo or scaleless or GHI or sunglow, maybe the next project should be jacksons chameleons or green tree pythons or something even more unusual. There are so many species of geckos and lizards, so many species of snakes, so many species of lage spiders. I tried to find a source for these earthworm-like snakes, borrowing black snakes that do not get larger than earthworms, but they eat insects and, well, earthworms. I could not find a single person keeping or breeding them, only a few scientific studies in the lab based on wild caught specimens.

[T&C Exotics]

about the best way to adapt:

i think, if you want to make money, or if you are a professional and your income depends on it, you need to either be at the top or near the top, or you need to diversify. and with that i mean diversify across species.

breeding rats can cut down your cost of keeping BPs and other snakes. at the same time you can sell live and frozen thawed feeders of all sizes. at the same time you can produce pet-quality rats.

then there would be chameleons. hard to keep, even harder to breed, in females egg retention leading to death is not uncommon, but well-started captive bred chameleons can be worth double the price of an import subadult (taken out of nature), because the captive bred ones are more stable in captivity and healthier. no morphs here, they change color, they are colorful, what would be the point of having an albino or axanthic or hypo?

or hognose, or green tree pythons. or maybe even spiders. when 100 of these really tiny tarantula larvas hatch and you get 40 up to size for sale, thats a lot of money, but its REALLY hard to do.

also there are species that are critically endangered or even extinct in the wild, but present in the market due to captive breeding. not only does it generate intense warm fuzzy feelings deep inside when you manage to breed something that is extinct as a species in the wild and that only a handful of people on the planet breed, but you might also turn a decent profit.

People that successfully breed BPs and even turned a profit for a while are EXPERTS, its an ACCOMPLISHMENT to get it done. its sad when they then cannot sell their product and re-coup their costs because of an overheated market, BUT THEY ARE STILL EXPERTS. there are around 3000 species of snakes and only around a third of them are venomous. And most of them are small. Some are tiny. Many are endangered. Many are facing extinction in the wild.


So for all that are successfully breeding BPs but cannot get near the top, maybe the next project should not be bamboo or scaleless or GHI or sunglow, maybe the next project should be jacksons chameleons or green tree pythons or something even more unusual. There are so many species of geckos and lizards, so many species of snakes, so many species of lage spiders. I tried to find a source for these earthworm-like snakes, borrowing black snakes that do not get larger than earthworms, but they eat insects and, well, earthworms. I could not find a single person keeping or breeding them, only a few scientific studies in the lab based on wild caught specimens.

The problem with what you proposed here is appeal. Most people do not want a snake that is not appealing visually so they do not want a snake that is never seen and is very small. Also most people that keep snakes do so because they are a lot easier than lizards for the most part. Most people want something they can take out and hold and show off and all of that fun stuff but also have ease of care. The ball python fits all of that perfectly where no lizard does.

To make it in this industry is quite simple. Produce the best examples of the morphs, be a stand up person and stand by every animal, have exceptional customer service, and offer animals in every price range from a cheap normal male to a bamboo or scaleless.

A lot of people are to stuck on this or that aspect of breeding to look at the market realities of it. Almost no one markets animals well to be quite honest. The best thing to do is reach out in multiple ways, various adds on different sites as well as a website, to market everything and provide details of each individual animal. An example of the information would be hatch date, weight, what it is feeding on, shed dates, dates of feedings, genetics, pictures from multiple angles, prey item size, and pictures of parents. That is a lot of work on the breeders behalf but I as a buyer would be way more interested in that animal from joeblow than a animal listed from Mr. Top breeder with the basics of gender, genetics, and if you are lucky weight.

Those are just my thoughts.

[gsarchie]

also there are species that are critically endangered or even extinct in the wild, but present in the market due to captive breeding.

I would love to know of an example of this.

[Darkbird]

The problem with what you proposed here is appeal. Most people do not want a snake that is not appealing visually so they do not want a snake that is never seen and is very small. Also most people that keep snakes do so because they are a lot easier than lizards for the most part. Most people want something they can take out and hold and show off and all of that fun stuff but also have ease of care. The ball python fits all of that perfectly where no lizard does.

Sadly there is a lot of truth in this. BP- plastic tub, heatsource, bedding, temp/humidity guage. Bearded Dragon- good sized cage, special lighting, more complicated food, etc. A lot of casual keepers would rather have the low maintenance pet.

[Pythonfriend]

I would love to know of an example of this.

without much hope to find anything useful i started my search...

and i found there are exactly two species of reptiles with the official status "extinct in the wild":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Soft-shell_Turtle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seychelles_giant_tortoise

there will be many more in captivity that are endangered or critically endangered, but i fail to find a list, a list of endangered or critically endangered species is easy to find, but finding out which of these are bred in captivity is hard.

here a complete list of critically endangered species:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Re...%28Animalia%29

i see 11 species of coloubrids, 17 species of iguanas, 9 species of vipers, 13 turtles, 4 skinks, 13 species of some other sub-order of lizards, 4 crocs, 1 alligator, and more random stuff. all critically endangered.

and finally, after a long search, a hit: only 230 are estimated to exist in the wild, its a viper, and its bred in captivity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_unicolor

EDIT: this one is also critically endangered, but there are references to breeding/keeping in captivity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_catalinensis

[Crazymonkee]

If you read on that softshell turtle it states they have been found in the wild since 2002

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