Proof on the Spider gene. OWAL take a look

[Badgemash]

Let me just throw this out there. slugs were never at any point fertile. Fertilization happens when the snake ovulates or shortly after. So slug never saw genetic material from either parent. The more likely idea is that infertile eggs were "Super spiders" didn't make it past the first cellular division. However because we don't truly understand reptile DNA and the associated mutations of it we wont be able to say for sure that the morphs are determined at the time of the first division or even later on. it's more likely that the mutation kicks in later in the embryo's development since its things like pigment and what not that are effected. With all of that said I've long said that it's naive to think that the only thing these mutations effect physiologically is skin pigment, We see kinking, cleft jaws, small eye's wobble's, duck bills ect ect. All of those this are changes to the anatomy of the animal.

Still so much to learn and discover

I'm going to try to phrase my response carefully, because I don't want to come across as combative when I really just want to understand what you're saying. I'm sure a lot has changed since my last genetics course, and a lot of what I learned is probably outdated, but I'd appreciate some clarification on some of your points.

Where does your info for slugs having never been fertile come from?

Surely if they are in fact "super spiders" that didn't make it past cellular division (or possibly not very far into it), they have received genetic material from both parents?

Although things like skin pigment are not visible in the early stages of development, the genes for it are there. The genetic material that determines the morph is there from the point of meiosis. However I believe you are correct in stating that the mutation (assuming that in your statement mutation is synonymous with morph and any associated defects) can cause problems later in development as those genes are activated during the embryos development.

[Badgemash]

Thank you. I figure since I made this whole mess I should at least do it and follow through and see what happens.

It takes courage to stand up and take responsibility for our actions sometimes. I wish you all the best in your continued recovery.

[C&H Exotic Morphs]

I'm going to try to phrase my response carefully, because I don't want to come across as combative when I really just want to understand what you're saying. I'm sure a lot has changed since my last genetics course, and a lot of what I learned is probably outdated, but I'd appreciate some clarification on some of your points.

Where does your info for slugs having never been fertile come from?

Surely if they are in fact "super spiders" that didn't make it past cellular division (or possibly not very far into it), they have received genetic material from both parents?

Although things like skin pigment are not visible in the early stages of development, the genes for it are there. The genetic material that determines the morph is there from the point of meiosis. However I believe you are correct in stating that the mutation (assuming that in your statement mutation is synonymous with morph and any associated defects) can cause problems later in development as those genes are activated during the embryos development.

Slugs are slugs way before a female Ovys. The male or his sperm have nothing to do with slugs. There are numerous people(Jerry aka SnakesRKewl being the one I remember off the top of my head) that have stated they can actually palpate slugs along with viable follicles and there is a clear difference in how they feel.

As for what is really going on we don't have a clue. We are playing with the Phenotypes of these animals and have very little understand what is going on with the rest of the Genotype.


To the OP-
I commend you on getting your life together and making the changes that you want to make to improve it.
Also for coming on here and laying it all out there and apologizing.
Good luck in your journey and we look forward to seeing what comes.

[Badgemash]

Slugs are slugs way before a female Ovys. The male or his sperm have nothing to do with slugs. There are numerous people(Jerry aka SnakesRKewl being the one I remember off the top of my head) that have stated they can actually palpate slugs along with viable follicles and there is a clear difference in how they feel.

That is both really cool, and good to know, thank you.

[T&C Exotics]

Thank you all for the kind words. That honestly means a lot to me.

As to the gene questions. I do have a theory... First keep in mind that I will not be using any technical terms at all because I do not know them.

So what I think is going on. I do not think that there is a super spider at all and I also do not think it is lethal or anything like that. When the egg and sperm come together that is what makes the baby right? What I think happens here is one of 2 things. 1 being that an egg and sperm both carrying the spider gene are not "attracted" to each other, meaning the sperm will just pass that egg up and fertilize one that is normal. Or the second option I feel is possible is that if the egg and sperm both carry the spider gene then only one of them will be displayed genetically, essentially if both mom and pop pass along the same gene to one baby that would normally result in a super we get a spider that is just a normal spider... Hard to explain my thinking on the second one I guess you could say that one spider gene can only be present at one time and if 2 come into contact with eachother one wipes the other out leaving only 1 spider gene in the dna and a blank spot, the blank spot could then be "filled" or replaced with a normal gene.

I said both of these because honestly we do not know what the dna of a snake is able to do. It could heal its self in a way. I also think that the worst wobbles that we see in the spiders could possibly come from a line that was derived from spider x spider breedings... Possible I think so.

[RandyRemington]

Welcome back, stay clean!

[Spiritserpents]

I don't think either of those theories are plausible. First, sperm just aren't that 'smart', and the ovum is encapsulated with none of the DNA available for the sperm to peruse. Second, one gene will not entirely delete a gene from the other chromosome.

From what I've seen, most of you introduce the male to the female well before she ovulates which means she is storing sperm. This can act to partially negate the idea that slugs are follicles that are bad from the go. Or if not a cause of the slugs, what might be happening is that the spider-spider combo is simply so lethal that the female resorbs it entirely due to failure to develop at all.

[C&H Exotic Morphs]

I don't think either of those theories are plausible. First, sperm just aren't that 'smart', and the ovum is encapsulated with none of the DNA available for the sperm to peruse. Second, one gene will not entirely delete a gene from the other chromosome.

From what I've seen, most of you introduce the male to the female well before she ovulates which means she is storing sperm. This can act to partially negate the idea that slugs are follicles that are bad from the go. Or if not a cause of the slugs, what might be happening is that the spider-spider combo is simply so lethal that the female resorbs it entirely due to failure to develop at all.

Yes the female does store the sperm. But, it doesn't meet the follicle until the female Ovys and slugs are slugs well before Ovy. Second a female can't reabsorb an egg or slug after she has Ovulated.

[T&C Exotics]

Ok what I meant by the egg and sperm that both carry the spider gene not being attracted to each other was that maybe there is something in the protein of one or the other that does not allow the sperm to fertilize the egg. Could be a weaker sperm cell or a thicker egg membrane something such as that. I know it is grabbing at straws but it is imo something is at least possible.

[vankmen.]

Just grabbing at straws here but do any of the normal offspring from spider x spider carry the head wobble ?