Quality of breeding stock

[sorraia]

The reasoning I had for labeling the mid range and beginner breeder was this: many / most of your morph customers are looking to breed at some point. The mid range would be the bulk of your sales, and consist of snakes that represent the morph accurately, to the general mmorph standards (your pastel, for example.) But are not holymotherofgod amazing. They are still high enough quality to breed, but you would want to line breed and improve them. Where as superior quality would be the best of the best. Probably only aa handful of snakes the entire year, sometimes none at all.

That was just my concept, add another tier, switch around how you would standardize your babies. It's a work in progress

I could be wrong... but it seems to me the "superior" quality snakes may not even be available to newbie breeders, instead probably being traded among top breeders who know each other and work together, long before they even make it to the newbie. Like someone mentioned... what you see in the ads are generally seem to be the lower quality snakes, until you get toward the end of the season/start of next season when breeders start selling off their holdbacks they don't really want/need any more. (That was how I got my pastave! Dumb luck I saw the ad the day it was posted, and contacted the breeder on a whim/impulse.) But I might be wrong. This is generally how things went in the rat world... where most of the quality breeders (meaning those breeders producing show quality animals that WERE winning) only traded/sold their best quality animals with other quality breeders they knew and worked closely with.

[Luke Martin]

The snake market has already bottomed out for many morphs, supply and demand is king,
The only way to stand out these days is quality, quality, quality.

Not even close. Until you see mass amounts of morphs for $30-50 in pet stores, they're far from bottomed out. They may be bottomed out to you as you feel they're too cheap, pet stores are still buying them at near market value....not even wholesale value yet. The pet market is still almost completely void of ball python morphs, though some are making their way into them. Most still see even the cheaper morphs as too expensive that they'd sit on their shelves. Its all about perception

[RoseyReps]

I could be wrong... but it seems to me the "superior" quality snakes may not even be available to newbie breeders, instead probably being traded among top breeders who know each other and work together, long before they even make it to the newbie. Like someone mentioned... what you see in the ads are generally seem to be the lower quality snakes, until you get toward the end of the season/start of next season when breeders start selling off their holdbacks they don't really want/need any more. (That was how I got my pastave! Dumb luck I saw the ad the day it was posted, and contacted the breeder on a whim/impulse.) But I might be wrong. This is generally how things went in the rat world... where most of the quality breeders (meaning those breeders producing show quality animals that WERE winning) only traded/sold their best quality animals with other quality breeders they knew and worked closely with.

I disagree, as I feel the majority of my morphs are superior quality, and I am about as newbie as they get. But that is the thing, without a breed/morph standard, opinions will be the swaying factor in what goes in the "Beginner breeder" section, and the "superior quality" section.

Then again, if any of my single genes prove out to be multi genes, I'll have to eat my words...

[sorraia]

I disagree, as I feel the majority of my morphs are superior quality, and I am about as newbie as they get. But that is the thing, without a breed/morph standard, opinions will be the swaying factor in what goes in the "Beginner breeder" section, and the "superior quality" section.

Then again, if any of my single genes prove out to be multi genes, I'll have to eat my words...

That could be, and I'm sure it depends on when someone is looking too. Someone looking at ads at the beginning of the season when all the babies are hatching at ones, perhaps could be looking at lesser quality, compared to someone looking at the end of the season holdbacks.

But to confuse matters even more... how would one judge "hets"? I could just not be looking in the right places, but I haven't seen much in the way of long pedigrees (maybe parents and grandparents) complete with pictures. So without knowing what is in the animal's background, how does one judge a het? Is it worth taking the risk to buy a het, raise it up, breed it, and then possibly end up with a bunch of subpar recessive morphs? Is a newbie, or any breeder for that matter, better off just spending the extra money to buy the morph itself? Or what if it is a morph that seems so completely subjective (i.e. pied) that it doesn't really seem to matter any way?

[RobNJ]

For the most part, aside from the obvious morphs, quality is purely in the eye of the breeders/buyers/owners. People breed for different qualities....whether it be clean and reduced, busy, spotted up, dark, dirty, etc... And there are businesses in the industry that don't breed for quality much at all. Not to say they don't produce nice snakes, but they also produce plenty of not so nice ones. Of course, as prices drop, there is a host of newer people coming in buying up anything at rock bottom prices and breeding. And with the never ending race to produce new combos, quality does take a back seat, IMO. Ball pythons are still relatively young as a breeding hobby with all the morphs, so it's just as possible that top quality has not yet been achieved in any morph....it's something that takes generations and generations to reach, not just popping out a hot snake here and there. Now, as far as quality goes...

Let's take enchi quality as an example...I'm not a fan of busy patterned enchis, but I'll definitely take some spots on mine if the color is outstanding. I see a lot of really clean enchis that don't impress me at all because the coloration is too soft, which I don't find to be a desirable trait in an enchi.

Another thing I'm not a fan of is pastel albinos...the yellow is way too soft and fades a lot over time. When I'm looking at albinos, I want screaming yellow. I'd venture to guess that ugly browned out pastels would make albinos more to my liking than really bright pastels would.

And have a look at Jerry's(SnakesRkewl) yellowbellies...by far the best I've seen. Are they the nicest they'll ever be? I don't think so...with the way Jerry feels about breeding, 10-15 years down the line, he will have even a nicer yellowbelly.

[RoseyReps]

That could be, and I'm sure it depends on when someone is looking too. Someone looking at ads at the beginning of the season when all the babies are hatching at ones, perhaps could be looking at lesser quality, compared to someone looking at the end of the season holdbacks.

But to confuse matters even more... how would one judge "hets"? I could just not be looking in the right places, but I haven't seen much in the way of long pedigrees (maybe parents and grandparents) complete with pictures. So without knowing what is in the animal's background, how does one judge a het? Is it worth taking the risk to buy a het, raise it up, breed it, and then possibly end up with a bunch of subpar recessive morphs? Is a newbie, or any breeder for that matter, better off just spending the extra money to buy the morph itself? Or what if it is a morph that seems so completely subjective (i.e. pied) that it doesn't really seem to matter any way?

I ask for pictures of the parents. If they don't have that, I'm not buying the hets.

[Capray]

Excellent! This should be stickied in the breeding section.

[HypoLyf]

I ask for pictures of the parents. If they don't have that, I'm not buying the hets.

x2. I want pictures of the parents to see what they look like and I want pictures of the parents locked up. Without at least that, I'm not touching hets with a 10 foot pole.

[Anatopism]

This is a bit delayed, so I apologize if this is irrelevant.. I'm only a couple pages in so far...

Perhaps something like this -

Pet Quality - These are the pythons with the least favorable coloring/pattern, but the most affordable.

Beginner Breeding Quality - These pythons are mid range, showing decent coloration/pattern for the morph. The majority of our babies fall in this category. Market price.

Superior Quality - These pythons go above and beyond the morph standard, showing excellent coloring/pattern. Our breeders come from this group. Priced according to market, with additional quality mark up.

Holdbacks / Breeders - These are our personal stock. Sometimes we will have pythons here we have bred in the past, who have been replaced by their offspring. All of these are Superior Quality, and priced accordingly.

This already exists, but is not labeled, and the animals 'grade' is affirmed or rejected by the market. I already 'grade' my animals, as do many other breeders, whether they realize or not, noted by their differing price ranges compared to each other, or compared to the average going rate for that particular morph. I've sold stunning examples of a morph on the higher end of that range, while charging less for what I consider to be sub-par animals. It's not that this system doesn't exist, it's that it isn't labeled, and I don't necessarily think labeling it will change what already exists: Good breeders continuing to breed excellent quality animals, and selling off the ones that are not good enough for their breeding program, and lazy breeders, who continue to breed solely for profit, or out of apathy regarding quality. You know what will happen with each of these groups?

Good breeders will continue to maintain their customer base and be successful in the hobby. Their animals will maintain a level of excellence, or get better as a whole, over time.

Lazy breedres will continue taking shortcuts, or purchasing only poor quality animals, and continue breeding poor quality animals. Do you think an animal labeled as a D-Grade animal, wont be bred by lazy breeders simply because it's D-Grade? The types of people who perpetuate poor examples, are the same ones who say "I'll just get 2 D-Grade Fires instead of 1 A-Grade Fire, and spend less, but get MORE babies/money!". Anybody who falls into the respectable category noted above, will not buy the crappy animals from this person... so who are they left with? Other lazy, cheap breeders who will pay less and less for the animals being sold... to the point where the person selling the poor quality animals will either find no homes for his ugly animals, or he'll be slowly inched out of the hobby by a customer base that doesn't respect him or his animals. People who fall into this category are also more likely to drop out of the hobby due to lack of passion in the first place.

We don't need to make standards and grades for ball pythons - they already exist, and are maintained by quality breeders adhering to their own aesthetic standards, and the market who purchase them. People who breed quality animals naturally rise to the top, and those who don't, are buried in their own apathy.

[RoseyReps]

This is a bit delayed, so I apologize if this is irrelevant.. I'm only a couple pages in so far...



This already exists, but is not labeled, and the animals 'grade' is affirmed or rejected by the market. I already 'grade' my animals, as do many other breeders, whether they realize or not, noted by their differing price ranges compared to each other, or compared to the average going rate for that particular morph. I've sold stunning examples of a morph on the higher end of that range, while charging less for what I consider to be sub-par animals. It's not that this system doesn't exist, it's that it isn't labeled, and I don't necessarily think labeling it will change what already exists: Good breeders continuing to breed excellent quality animals, and selling off the ones that are not good enough for their breeding program, and lazy breeders, who continue to breed solely for profit, or out of apathy regarding quality. You know what will happen with each of these groups?

Good breeders will continue to maintain their customer base and be successful in the hobby. Their animals will maintain a level of excellence, or get better as a whole, over time.

Lazy breedres will continue taking shortcuts, or purchasing only poor quality animals, and continue breeding poor quality animals. Do you think an animal labeled as a D-Grade animal, wont be bred by lazy breeders simply because it's D-Grade? The types of people who perpetuate poor examples, are the same ones who say "I'll just get 2 D-Grade Fires instead of 1 A-Grade Fire, and spend less, but get MORE babies/money!". Anybody who falls into the respectable category noted above, will not buy the crappy animals from this person... so who are they left with? Other lazy, cheap breeders who will pay less and less for the animals being sold... to the point where the person selling the poor quality animals will either find no homes for his ugly animals, or he'll be slowly inched out of the hobby by a customer base that doesn't respect him or his animals. People who fall into this category are also more likely to drop out of the hobby due to lack of passion in the first place.

We don't need to make standards and grades for ball pythons - they already exist, and are maintained by quality breeders adhering to their own aesthetic standards, and the market who purchase them. People who breed quality animals naturally rise to the top, and those who don't, are buried in their own apathy.

I'll let you finish reading for my explanation





Or, to sum it up:
A standard won't work, as the opinions differ to greatly.
Labeling up front can help visualize for new breeders the difference.
It's not meant to STOP people from breeding pet quality, but if it makes them think about quality AT ALL, it's done it's job (for me).
This is just something *I* want to use on my personal website, I don't think everyone needs or should have to, call it an experiment