Do all morphs get "head wobble"?

[Genetics Breeder]

How noble of you to try to protect people by preventing them to get into spiders, I believe buyers should be educated and make decision for themselves

Oh and since you avoided my previous questions I'll ask again

I didn't avoid questions. I said it was not normal for spiders to vibrate their heads. You seem to still want an explanation for how to decide whether it is bad or not.

I will say it in a easier way to think of.
1. Pretend you don't know anything about reptiles, or breeding snakes. Pretend you went to a reptile show with someone trying to convince you to like/breed snakes. When you are at the show, a spider starts vibrating his head. The breeder tells you it is a neurological disorder associated with all spiders, with different levels of the problem in different animals. Now also think of you going to another section of the vendor's table, and seeing a caramel albino. He says the same thing about them having that problem.
Then you see TONS of spiders and spider combos, with ALL of them having the problem in different amounts.
NOW think of hearing people say "it isn't that bad, I actually think it is 'cute' and gives the animal personality".
You now know that it is NOT natural, but people breed it because either they like the pattern or want the money.
You know it affects the animal. Nobody can measure the exact amount it affects them, but it DEFINITELY isn't 'good' or AT ALL benefiting the animal.
Now, hopefully, you will be able to think of why it is not good for spider ball pythons to be bred.
Tell my ONE reason that people 'have' to own spiders, other than liking them. There are 133+ known single gene mutations, with over 1000 designer (2+ gene) morphs.http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/
Someone who has animals only for pets would see that easier than a breeder. People I know with pets only, or breeding on extremely small scale, rarely have screwed up animals. They usually only do if it was a rescue or from previous keepers not taking care of it.
You still avoid answering my question, of why it is a 'necessary' morph. Why don't people make the smart choice and buy pinstripe, genetic banded, or another pattern reducer morph instead? All you say is 'people can make their own choices', which I obviously know. I am asking why so many make the STUPID choice to breed a screwed up animal.

[Genetics Breeder]

You also 'avoided' answering this.
If an animal can't control their movements, how happy can they be? It's obvious that when they strike and miss, they aren't trying to miss.
I can also post a bunch of pictures of pretty, not screwed up animals. I will post the alternatives to the last posts' spider combo morphs.
Tiger Pin
Albino Pinstripe
Axanthic Pinstripe
Banana Pin
Boom Ball
Butter Pin
Dragon Fly
OG Pin
I could go down the whole list, but that's just Pinstripe combos, about the closest to spider.
You still don't say why people can't control their desire to have a pattern morph, but somehow take care of their animals patiently (waiting longer to breed, and just in general caring about their animals as PETS. Not objects to breed and make money from).

[dr del]

Hi,

You also 'avoided' answering this.
If an animal can't control their movements, how happy can they be? It's obvious that when they strike and miss, they aren't trying to miss.
I can also post a bunch of pictures of pretty, not screwed up animals. I will post the alternatives to the last posts' spider combo morphs.
Tiger Pin
Albino Pinstripe
Axanthic Pinstripe
Banana Pin
Boom Ball
Butter Pin
Dragon Fly
OG Pin
I could go down the whole list, but that's just Pinstripe combos, about the closest to spider.
You still don't say why people can't control their desire to have a pattern morph, but somehow take care of their animals patiently (waiting longer to breed, and just in general caring about their animals as PETS. Not objects to breed and make money from).

I get that you think pinstripes look like spiders - problem is they don't. At all. In combo morphs especially.

Those are in no way, shape or form alternatives to the spider morphs mentioned. If you think they are you need your eyes examined.

In your list you might want to remove Tiger pin given the fact that the possible problem with deserts is far more serious. And keeping, incubating at lower temps has been hyped as the fix for every problem that has cropped up in ball python morphs - it has never fixed one of them yet so don't be so quick to announce that fixed. Nobody has even tried it long enough for a preliminary judgement.

Let a lone announcing a cure.

I'd also read up on bananas - there have been some major developments lately you may be unaware of.

Also the bug eye rumour in super lesser/ butters.

To be honest your specific genetic knowledge of this species is nowhere near the level you need to buy a high horse let alone pontificate from the top of it.

I get that you are passionate in your opinion that they should not be bred. But that's just it - it's an opinion and people are allowed to disagree with you. And most of the people in this thread who have actually kept the animals do.

It's pointless rechewing and re-resenting your argument. It's not that we don't understand it - we just think you are wrong. Or at least have no danged right to try and tell anyone your opinion is more valid than theirs.

You are, effectively, telling everyone they have lower moral standards than you.

Bear in mind some of them have 5-10 years of direct, eyes and hands on, experience to stack up against your precisely zero quanity of the same. Can you see how that might be contrued as an insult or at the very least extremely rude?

At the end oif the day, without actual direct understandable comunication nobody can be truly certain on the "happyness and stress" leves of any other organism.

Since that is only possible with human beings that presents a major problem. I certainly wouldn't go around asking people born with deformities or medical conditions if they would have been happier if they had never been born - and I don't recommend you try it either.

So, you have no direct knowledge or observational experience, and the other people, who have no direct knowledge but do have observational experience, disagree with you.

Does this sound like a situation that will ever be comprehensively answered to you?

Incidently - that dog in your avatar it looks like a Chihuahua?

I assume you don't think they should be bred or allowed to exist either?

You know, because of these problems?



dr del

[C&H Exotic Morphs]

I didn't avoid questions. I said it was not normal for spiders to vibrate their heads. You seem to still want an explanation for how to decide whether it is bad or not.
Actually since the wobble is attached to the spider gene and all spiders have the wobble to some degree, it is completely normal for them to wobble.

I will say it in a easier way to think of.
1. Pretend you don't know anything about reptiles, or breeding snakes. Pretend you went to a reptile show with someone trying to convince you to like/breed snakes. When you are at the show, a spider starts vibrating his head. The breeder tells you it is a neurological disorder associated with all spiders, with different levels of the problem in different animals. Now also think of you going to another section of the vendor's table, and seeing a caramel albino. He says the same thing about them having that problem.
Then you see TONS of spiders and spider combos, with ALL of them having the problem in different amounts.
NOW think of hearing people say "it isn't that bad, I actually think it is 'cute' and gives the animal personality".
You now know that it is NOT natural, but people breed it because either they like the pattern or want the money.
You know it affects the animal. Nobody can measure the exact amount it affects them, but it DEFINITELY isn't 'good' or AT ALL benefiting the animal.
Now, hopefully, you will be able to think of why it is not good for spider ball pythons to be bred.
Tell my ONE reason that people 'have' to own spiders, other than liking them. There are 133+ known single gene mutations, with over 1000 designer (2+ gene) morphs.http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/
Yes there are now over 1000 designer morphs out there and the spider gene is a part of almost 10% of them.
Someone who has animals only for pets would see that easier than a breeder. People I know with pets only, or breeding on extremely small scale, rarely have screwed up animals. They usually only do if it was a rescue or from previous keepers not taking care of it.
You still avoid answering my question, of why it is a 'necessary' morph.
Why is it necessary for us to own any of the different animals we keep as pets? It is actually pretty simple we do it because we LIKE them. Not a single animal that we as humans keep as PETS is necessary.
Why don't people make the smart choice and buy pinstripe, genetic banded, or another pattern reducer morph instead? All you say is 'people can make their own choices', which I obviously know. I am asking why so many make the STUPID choice to breed a screwed up animal.

And for the most important part. Where do you get off telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do!?
Expressing your opinion is one thing but calling anyone "STUPID" because they disagree and keep an animal that you personally don't like is incredibly rude and immature.

[Genetics Breeder]

Hi,



I get that you think pinstripes look like spiders - problem is they don't. At all. In combo morphs especially.

Those are in no way, shape or form alternatives to the spider morphs mentioned. If you think they are you need your eyes examined.
I said they look the most similar. Use brazilian rainbow boas as an example. They have 3 morphs. Hypo, Anery, and Ghost. You can't make more morphs of them than there already are. You have a choice of those 3. Now pretend that happened with all problematic ball pythons. You can still have hundreds of morphs. Just exclude the problematic ones.
In your list you might want to remove Tiger pin given the fact that the possible problem with deserts is far more serious. And keeping, incubating at lower temps has been hyped as the fix for every problem that has cropped up in ball python morphs - it has never fixed one of them yet so don't be so quick to announce that fixed. Nobody has even tried it long enough for a preliminary judgement.
I haven't heard about the desert problems, but I haven't been reading about them, because they are out of my budget right now anyways. I thought that was a tiger (dominant morph) pinstripe.

Let a lone announcing a cure.
I don't know what you mean about lower temperature incubation.
I'd also read up on bananas - there have been some major developments lately you may be unaware of.

Also the bug eye rumour in super lesser/ butters.
These two I haven't heard of, probably because I wasn't going to buy the morphs.
To be honest your specific genetic knowledge of this species is nowhere near the level you need to buy a high horse let alone pontificate from the top of it.
I research the ones I will buy or think of buying. I just recently heard about the spider problem (luckily) by seeing it in person and asking about it. NO ads on kingsnake warn about it, very few morph guides do, and the only other thing is that some ads say 'it doesn't have a wobble', and I didn't know what that meant.
I get that you are passionate in your opinion that they should not be bred. But that's just it - it's an opinion and people are allowed to disagree with you. And most of the people in this thread who have actually kept the animals do.
And, if they have kept the animals, I'm sure they are not going to want to agree with me about how bad breeding spiders is.
It's pointless rechewing and re-resenting your argument. It's not that we don't understand it - we just think you are wrong. Or at least have no danged right to try and tell anyone your opinion is more valid than theirs.
You are the first person to say that you understood it. But still, nobody said why they weren't able to avoid buying spiders with all the alternative morphs.
You are, effectively, telling everyone they have lower moral standards than you.
I think they do, at least with the spider morph.
Bear in mind some of them have 5-10 years of direct, eyes and hands on, experience to stack up against your precisely zero quanity of the same. Can you see how that might be contrued as an insult or at the very least extremely rude?
How do you know how long I've had reptiles? Do you think everyone joins a forums the day they get their first pet? That still doesn't change what someone can learn in a week. It doesn't take 5-10 years to learn about a morphs problems.
At the end oif the day, without actual direct understandable comunication nobody can be truly certain on the "happyness and stress" leves of any other organism.
You don't have to be. If it stressed an animal just a little each time it strikes and misses, or wobbles, it is different that a normally functioning animal.
Since that is only possible with human beings that presents a major problem. I certainly wouldn't go around asking people born with deformities or medical conditions if they would have been happier if they had never been born - and I don't recommend you try it either.
[B]So you think that snakes that were never born are going to be sad? You talk about asking a LIVING PERSON that. Not an animal that was never born. What if person A and person B had a kid, but never a second kid? Do you think their non-existent sibling would be 'sad' or 'missing out' because they were never born? Another difference is that you PLAN for spiders to have problems. People say 'if it's in the bad form of the problem, we'll just KILL IT. What's the difference? If you 'understand' like you wrote above, you agree to planning on killing animals that YOU bred, then killing them if they do not meet your standards of having limited problems. Now try to tell me that Pinstripes can't be an alternative, they don't look similar enough (for you), and that I need MY [B]MY eyes checked.
So, you have no direct knowledge or observational experience, and the other people, who have no direct knowledge but do have observational experience, disagree with you.
I have 'observed' them at reptile expos, and 'have knowledge' of their problems as much as anyone else.
Does this sound like a situation that will ever be comprehensively answered to you?
If you read everything I wrote, yes. It is bad, stupid, wrong, whatever you want to call it, to breed spiders.
Incidently - that dog in your avatar it looks like a Chihuahua?

I assume you don't think they should be bred or allowed to exist either?

You know, because of these problems?
You somehow seem to know my pets so well already.
Yes, I have 3 chihuahuas. All 3 were fixed ASAP. We never considered breeding them.
The first is a deerface, what people breeding chihuahuas don't want, because she doesn't barely have an 'apple head' at all.
She got in a fight one time and had her hip dislocated, and we couldn't tell other than her slightly limping and crying if you touched her leg. It was better by the end of the day and hasn't happened since then. The second has never had any of those problems. The most recent was given to us by the vet taking care of her, who had her for 2 weeks. He was hit by a car, then surrendered, because the owner couldn't pay for the medical bills ($1000). His entire front leg was amputated. He has none of the problems. Food is available constantly to them, so they have no chance of getting hypoglycemia.


dr del

[Genetics Breeder]

And for the most important part. Where do you get off telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do!?
Expressing your opinion is one thing but calling anyone "STUPID" because they disagree and keep an animal that you personally don't like is incredibly rude and immature.

Of course I 'personally don't like' the spider trait. It's not the animals fault for having problems, it's the breeder that bred for that trait! I think it is 'incredibly rude and immature' to breed animals, knowing that you will KILL THEM if they have the problem in the extreme. Don't say people don't kill them. I read all the time, written by people I consider STUPID: If a spider shows the problem in the extreme state, a good breeder will not sell it. It will be 'culled'. What do YOU think that means? Here, let me show you an easier way to help you comprehend it. Exchange the first to letters for K and I:
C U lled
K I lled
and you have magically transformed the word! It even sounds similar! Why would a 'good breeder' breed for then kill their animals? Try to answer that.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Why would a 'good breeder' breed for then kill their animals? Try to answer that.[/B]

Based on that no one should breed any reptiles or animals of any kind for that matter because unless you are that naive sooner or later YOU will have to cull an animal, that what happens when you breed them sooner or later you will be faced with the decision of having to cull an animal.

Funny how you still fail to explain how bad their quality of life is compare to other snakes that also eat, poop, grow, breed also miss when they strike (because unless you didn't know noy only spider do that )

I guess your vast experience based on observation at shows and your readings makes you so much more experienced than others on the subject who actually have hands on experience.

Buy yeah keep insulting and bashing other fellow breeders for the animals they chose to work with at least you're good at that.

[Reakt20]

Desert females can't produce babies that thrive. Some say lower temps will correct this problem but it doesn't or at least hasn't been proved. Womas look way more similar to spiders than pinstripes. Pinstripes don't look anything like a spider.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

You now know that it is NOT natural, but people breed it because either they like the pattern or want the money.

When did the spider gene, and its characteristics become "Not Natural"? I don't recall the first spider coming about as a result of some test tube experiment... Nope, in fact it was captured from the wild... If humans didn't exist there would be a full breeding population of them in the wild right now...

And yes, people usually do produce morphs "because either they like the pattern or want the money." This is true for normals too. Your point?

You know it affects the animal. Nobody can measure the exact amount it affects them, but it DEFINITELY isn't 'good' or AT ALL benefiting the animal.
Now, hopefully, you will be able to think of why it is not good for spider ball pythons to be bred .

If you actually owned and cared for spiders for years, and have bred them and their combinations for years, like many of us have, you might have a clue. But since you haven't, you don't have a clue. See how it works?

MANY people with hands on experience will tell you that spiders are often the best eaters in a collection. I can tell you for a fact that my top 3 eaters are all spiders or spider combos. So how exactly are you able to determine that the spider gene "definately isn't good or at all benefiting the animal?"

I am asking why so many make the STUPID choice to breed a screwed up animal.

Like I said, you don't have a clue.

[rabernet]

You are the first person to say that you understood it. But still, nobody said why they weren't able to avoid buying spiders with all the alternative morphs.

Why in the world should I HAVE to avoid buying spiders? I happen to like....no, scratch that...LOVE spiders.

How do you know how long I've had reptiles?

Your own admitted lack of knowledge about the spider wobble before you went to a show, when it's one of the most talked about topics in the ball python community, as well as your admitted non-knowledge about other well known problems with other morphs.

I don't own deserts, but I know very well the discussions around them.

You may have kept reptiles longer, but you definitely haven't worked with ball pythons very long, nor have you done as much research about them as you try to come across as, or none of this would have been a surprise to you.

Your arguments in this entire thread are weak, you've back pedaled when you've been unable to define "happiness" in a snake, you "assume" that they are unhappy when they miss on a strike (guess what, normals also miss on strikes, maybe ball pythons shouldn't exist at all - they're all so stressed from missing a strike).

You're nothing more than a keyboard warrior based on observations at a reptile show, which gives you the authority now to judge everyone who chooses to work with spiders.

I hope that you you change that attitude before you plan to breed yourself and try to market yourself, because you've surely alienated yourself from a lot of potential future customers by being so smug and judgemental.