What do we know about breeding Bananas?

[RandyRemington]

... There is also a third part to the story, however, that as far as I can tell from skimming the Internet hasn't yet been revealed, and that seems to be the "key" to consistently making a bunch of male CGs. ... If you're lucky enough to stumble upon it. ... I don't know if that's all that appropriate to share at this time or not so for now I'll just leave it at that. (Sorry, I'm not trying to play the "neener neener I know more" game -- just don't want to blab someone else's information.) I really don't think there's any conspiracy though.

(PS. I will also say that it doesn't seem to be sex-linked recessive -- that was one of my first thoughts, too )

The trick isn't breeding normal looking sons of banana/coral glow females back to the banana/coral glow females? Because that's the sex linked recessive in males and dominant in females theory we came up with years ago and got shot down with the information that was shared at the time.

[JoeEllisReptiles]

What if you breed the normal female daughters to the male bananas? Would you get more male bananas?

[Serpent_Nirvana]

The trick isn't breeding normal looking sons of banana/coral glow females back to the banana/coral glow females? Because that's the sex linked recessive in males and dominant in females theory we came up with years ago and got shot down with the information that was shared at the time.

Nope, that's not it. I asked in no uncertain terms if there could be some recessive thing at work here, and was told that that positively does not seem to be the case.

... Really, the thing of it is that unless there's a piece of the puzzle that I wasn't given, there really is no "trick" to it as far as what to breed to what. It's either luck -- and knowing what to hold back if you hit on that luck -- or knowing what to buy if you don't ....... If you can find one for sale.

(Again, assuming there isn't some additional thing that I don't know, which is never outside the realm of possibility )

[xFenrir]

Now that WOULD be a surprise!! (RTB's don't lay eggs. )

Whoops, just realized my mistake! I was thinking of my BP at the time, I got them mixed up. I said it right on Facebook! If any surprise eggs end up in my boa's tub, I'll be sure to freak out on here first though.

[wwmjkd]

Nope, that's not it. I asked in no uncertain terms if there could be some recessive thing at work here, and was told that that positively does not seem to be the case.

... Really, the thing of it is that unless there's a piece of the puzzle that I wasn't given, there really is no "trick" to it as far as what to breed to what. It's either luck -- and knowing what to hold back if you hit on that luck -- or knowing what to buy if you don't ....... If you can find one for sale.

(Again, assuming there isn't some additional thing that I don't know, which is never outside the realm of possibility )

not to stir the pot, and I do not intend to sound accusatory in any way, but doesn't that vitiate your post from yesterday about there being a third 'piece' that hasn't been released to the public? it seemed like you were alluding to information that isn't being disseminated at the moment (and that's definitely what Niel was implying last week). no conspiracy theories certainly, but something that breeders are considering to be essentially a trade secret? if luck or banana-specific breeding expertise alone is the key, this discussion seems rather moot.

if I'm off base or out of line, I do apologize.

[RandyRemington]

I remember now from the old thread why a standard sex linked Z mutation didn't work, because the original female banana produced at least some banana daughters first breeding. I don't remember if we found a reason it couldn't be sex influenced (a mutation NOT on the gender chromosome but which behaves differently in males and females). In that theory it's still recessive in males and dominant in females. Not sure if in the old thread we could get enough breeding results to confirm or refute that theory. Whatever it is I think we have to have lots of good reliable breeding results info to figure it out. I wouldn't necessarily trust the characterization that it's not a recessive thing just because this would be such a different variation of non sex influenced recessive that the breeder could just disagree with the terminology (sort of like the term "lethal" in spider discussions). Eventually we'll get a banana or coral glow breeder who will answer specific questions about what was bred and what the outcome was and then we'll all know how it works.

[OhhWatALoser]

I remember now from the old thread why a standard sex linked Z mutation didn't work, because the original female banana produced at least some banana daughters first breeding. I don't remember if we found a reason it couldn't be sex influenced (a mutation NOT on the gender chromosome but which behaves differently in males and females). In that theory it's still recessive in males and dominant in females. Not sure if in the old thread we could get enough breeding results to confirm or refute that theory. Whatever it is I think we have to have lots of good reliable breeding results info to figure it out. I wouldn't necessarily trust the characterization that it's not a recessive thing just because this would be such a different variation of non sex influenced recessive that the breeder could just disagree with the terminology (sort of like the term "lethal" in spider discussions). Eventually we'll get a banana or coral glow breeder who will answer specific questions about what was bred and what the outcome was and then we'll all know how it works.

There also has to be room in the theory for the homozygous banana, since albinos unlimited made one (would be nice to know if it was male or female). I believe with what your saying with your theory would mean only females could be the "super" but males have to be homozygous? if i'm understanding correctly? also do we know how many males have produced males? is it the same males doing it, or was it like a 1 or 2 time thing?

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...7-Super-Banana

[Serpent_Nirvana]

not to stir the pot, and I do not intend to sound accusatory in any way, but doesn't that vitiate your post from yesterday about there being a third 'piece' that hasn't been released to the public? it seemed like you were alluding to information that isn't being disseminated at the moment (and that's definitely what Niel was implying last week). no conspiracy theories certainly, but something that breeders are considering to be essentially a trade secret? if luck or banana-specific breeding expertise alone is the key, this discussion seems rather moot.

if I'm off base or out of line, I do apologize.

I can see what you're saying -- but yeah, what I was getting at is that as far as I know there's no "collusion" of any kind -- breeders aren't all getting together and agreeing not to sell males or anything of that nature, and certainly aren't killing them. That was the original reason I made my post knowing that it might be ill-perceived as being another "neener neener I know more than you but I'm not telling" -- because I do feel strongly that this isn't a collusion or conspiracy as has been implied. I honestly think it's just a danged confusing mode of inheritance.

In fact, I don't even know if any breeders have explicitly agreed not to disseminate the information that I was given. I'm just trying to err on the side of caution, because I would rather not say something that I could have said rather than say something inappropriately and violate someone's trust. Y'know?

There is one more piece of the puzzle (that I'm aware of), but frankly I don't think it will be a secret for very long. My impression of the situation is that this piece is a fairly new development -- or at least, seeing it in high enough numbers to be statistically significant -- and since I really don't think there's a conspiracy, I think it will be revealed soon.

... At any rate, there is a bit of a clue on NERD's website ...

Randy, one thing I can say is that I've tried and tried to come up with a theory for inheritance of this gene and simply can't do it. In fact, in my mind the last piece of information just makes it that much more confusing. ... I think that it may point to some sort of sex-linked inheritance with occasional crossing-over ... I just don't know.

[wwmjkd]

that is the single most clarifying and consice post I can recall on this subject. thanks.

since my only vested interest in this is idle curiosity, I suppose I can afford to wait it out and see what happens.