So i just found out...

[Freakie_frog]

she has every right to be upset, it sounds like it was (as usual) kept 'hush-hush' to a newbie until a sale was made.

Or perhaps the breeder figured the buyer did some research like we all should when spending loads of money on a pet or breeder and knew about the wobble

Basically spiders have this neurological problem, it is upto you to decide weather you think it's "fine" like everyone says.

There is no evidence to prove or disprove this its simply speculation

We personally chose not to work with (ie reproduce) the spider gene because of this flaw. It has however become commonly accepted because people think spiders are pretty and (like they have all said) spiders seem to manage ok (eat, poo, breed etc)

Every morph you work with is "Flawed" that's what makes them different from normals..It's hypercritical to say that you except every other genetic flaw in the hobby but this one. Then talk poorly about it simply because you don't like it.

To say it is not a big deal is wrong, I imagine it IS a big deal when you drop hundreds of dollars on your first ever ball morph only to find out about a well known neurological issue AFTER the purchase. You only say it's normal/acceptable because the breeders that are trying to sell these snakes say it is. Personally, just because they eat and shed (etc), it's no reason to class is as normal or acceptable for a ball python. Would you be happy with a normal that behaved like that?

Again there isn't anything proving or disproving that its neurological. The wobble is part of the spider gene, like pink eye's with albinos, or the duck bill thing with super cinni's. You either love them or you don't..but don't try and make the breeder out to be a bad guy like they sold a defective product.

The "spider wobble" is judged acceptable simply because it doesn't kill them, and because lots of breeders who invested $20-30 GRAND on their first spiders back in the late 90s wanted it to be a non issue and make their investments back.

It's judged acceptable because we can look past a slight motor function issue and see a wonderful morph..

If people bred mammals with such obvious defects they would be slated.

But we don't..We breed mutants, genetic freaks on purpose. Hip Displacea, heart problem, joint issues, nasal problems all of these are "common" problems in Dogs so yes they do still breed mammals with problems..

To just gloss it over to someone new to the hobby as "normal" and basically tell them to stop being upset is a little closed minded IMO.

Or simply trying to calm their fears that there is something wrong with their spider..

I would also suggest that someone with an attitude like this has never seen a spider with a real bad case of wither the wobbles or 'corkscrewing'. The worst ones are truly heartbreaking.

Some might not have..then others have seen them, hatched them, fed them, and can still say that its a spider

What will become "normal" and "acceptable" next? Will the up and coming breeders of ball morphs be telling people it's ok to breed kinked caramels and caramel combos? That it's ok to breed a super cinnamon males with a duck billed face and a kink in it's spine like a golf club?

There is no evidence that duck billing, kinking and the like is passed from parent to offspring. Over the last 8+ years it seems to only show up in the stuff you mentioned super's and caramels. With that said even normals get kinks, duck bills, little eye's big heads, cleft palates, no eyes and far far worse.

If the spider gene was discovered in the wild NOW with how the hobby is instead of being found right "back in the day" when the ball morph market was nuts would people still ignore this flaw? or would they say "we have so many other amazing looking morphs we'd prefer not to buy one that can't even tell which way is the correct way up". IMO if the spider gene was WC NOW, today, any responsible breeder would say "well this thing looks great, and it's genetic but if I can't fix this issue with new blood or outbreeding i'll leave it alone."

Maybe then again we'll never know..

Spiders: Love them, Hate them, breed them, or leave them alone..the choice is yours..
Me I love them and all their combos..

[mason]

There is no evidence to prove or disprove this its simply speculation


Every morph you work with is "Flawed" that's what makes them different from normals..It's hypercritical to say that you except every other genetic flaw in the hobby but this one. Then talk poorly about it simply because you don't like it.


Again there isn't anything proving or disproving that its neurological. The wobble is part of the spider gene, like pink eye's with albinos, or the duck bill thing with super cinni's. You either love them or you don't..but don't try and make the breeder out to be a bad guy like they sold a defective product.


It's judged acceptable because we can look past a slight motor function issue and see a wonderful morph..


But we don't..We breed mutants, genetic freaks on purpose.


Or simply trying to calm their fears that there is something wrong with their spider..


Some might not have..then others have seen them, hatched them, fed them, and can still say that its a spider


There is no evidence that duck billing, kinking and the like is passed from parent to offspring. Over the last 8+ years it seems to only show up in the stuff you mentioned super's and caramels. With that said even normals get kinks, duck bills, little eye's big heads, cleft palates, no eyes and far far worse.


Maybe then again we'll never know..

Spiders: Love them, Hate them, breed them, or leave them alone..the choice is yours..
Me I love them and all their combos..

Where to start with that?First off (as I stated), it's simply my opinion and personal choice. Neither am I trying to flame a breeder.

Right. No evidence it's neurological? What else can it be? Spiders are not fully in control of their movements. Motor function is controlled by the brain. is it by definition neurological. Even if it is not neurological it IS non-normal behaviour for a ball python. Other morphs do not cause non normal behavior. That is why I don't like it.

I also completely disagree with you about all morphs being flaws, that is complete rubbish. They are different to normals, yes but not flawed. We breed genetic mutations NOT flaws. No other royal python gene has a problem linked with it in this way.To compare spiders wobble to pink eyes in albinos is laughable. Totally different.

I did not try to calm the OP, because it was clear form their first post they had accepted it and did not need "calming down".

I wasn't trying to take a dig at a breeder, I know i'm almost alone in my choice not to breed spiders. I wasn't judging, insulting or suggesting anyone has done something wrong in this case.

[unspecified42]

she has every right to be upset, it sounds like it was (as usual) kept 'hush-hush' to a newbie until a sale was made.


Basically spiders have this neurological problem, it is upto you to decide weather you think it's "fine" like everyone says.

We personally chose not to work with (ie reproduce) the spider gene because of this flaw. It has however become commonly accepted because people think spiders are pretty and (like they have all said) spiders seem to manage ok (eat, poo, breed etc)

To say it is not a big deal is wrong, I imagine it IS a big deal when you drop hundreds of dollars on your first ever ball morph only to find out about a well known neurological issue AFTER the purchase. You only say it's normal/accpetable because the breeders that are trying to sell these snakes say it is. Personally, just because they eat and shed (etc), it's no reason to class is as normal or acceptable for a ball python. Would you be happy with a normal that behaved like that?

The "spider wobble" is judged acceptable simply because it doesn't kill them, and because lots of breeders who invested $20-30 GRAND on their first spiders back in the late 90s wanted it to be a non issue and make their investments back.

If people bred mammals with such obvious defects they would be slated.

To just gloss it over to someone new to the hobby as "normal" and basically tell them to stop being upset is a little closed minded IMO.

I would also suggest that someone with an attitude like this has never seen a spider with a real bad case of wither the wobbles or 'corkscrewing'. The worst ones are truly heartbreaking.

What will become "normal" and "acceptable" next? Will the up and coming breeders of ball morphs be telling people it's ok to breed kinked caramels and caramel combos? That it's ok to breed a super cinnamon males with a duck billed face and a kink in it's spine like a golf club?

If the spider gene was discovered in the wild NOW with how the hobby is instead of being found right "back in the day" when the ball morph market was nuts would people still ignore this flaw? or would they say "we have so many other amazing looking morphs we'd prefer not to buy one that can't even tell which way is the correct way up". IMO if the spider gene was WC NOW, today, any responsible breeder would say "well this thing looks great, and it's genetic but if I can't fix this issue with new blood or outbreeding i'll leave it alone."

I just fail to see how it's reasonable to get terribly upset over a trait that is endemic to a morph and isn't affecting it's quality of life at all. If the breeder specifically misled the buyer then I would be upset, or if the snake had a particularly bad wobble as you are describing (which I have seen). I think people overreact to this too much and research too little.

You are so very wrong about similarities to mammals, also. There are plenty of examples of breed-specific illnesses that exist in dogs. Daschunds have hip and disc issues, great danes have bad hearts, english bulldogs often have difficulties whelping, etc etc etc. And yet we breed and sell these animals without qualm. The only difference is that, unlike a spider's mild wobble, these traits actually DO cause health problems. It's up to the buyer to research what they are buying, IMO.

[unspecified42]

Right. No evidence it's neurological? What else can it be? Spiders are not fully in control of their movements. Motor function is controlled by the brain. is it by definition neurological. Even if it is not neurological it IS non-normal behaviour for a ball python. Other morphs do not cause non normal behavior. That is why I don't like it.

Musculoskeletal, possibly. It does look neurological, but it would be interesting to know for sure.

[Freakie_frog]

Where to start with that?First off (as I stated), it's simply my opinion and personal choice. Neither am I trying to flame a breeder.

I respect that I was simply offering another opinion.

Right. No evidence it's neurological? What else can it be? Spiders are not fully in control of their movements. Motor function is controlled by the brain. is it by definition neurological. Even if it is not neurological it IS non-normal behavior for a ball python. Other morphs do not cause non normal behavior. That is why I don't like it.

Unless it's an equilibrium issue, or their labial pits are over active, or they have double vision..We simply don't know..

I also completely disagree with you about all morphs being flaws, that is complete rubbish. They are different to normals, yes but not flawed. We breed genetic mutations NOT flaws. No other royal python gene has a problem linked with it in this way.To compare spiders wobble to pink eyes in albinos is laughable. Totally different.

Every mutation has a genetic problem, Every signal one of them! And yes they there are. Caramels Kink, Super cinni's have duck bills, Pearl's die, Granite Albinos have head deformations, even seen Woma's that wobble.

I did not try to calm the OP, because it was clear form their first post they had accepted it and did not need "calming down".

Agreed..

I wasn't trying to take a dig at a breeder, I know i'm almost alone in my choice not to breed spiders. I wasn't judging, insulting or suggesting anyone has done something wrong in this case.

Ok it just felt like that with the "hush hush" comment.. I respect that you wont work with Spider's nothing wrong with that.

Hope I didn't offend or come off harsh or hard..not my intent..

[unspecified42]

Unless it's an equilibrium issue, or their labial pits are over active, or they have double vision..We simply don't know..

Hmm, that is interesting. When I bred/kept rats (as pets) I sometimes ran into issues with them that looked similar to a spider wobble because of poor eyesight. They bob and weave their heads back and forth to compensate for very poor eyesight (pretty common in albinos).

[RockyTop]

I see both sides of the argument. It's your choice.


Personally, it is why I won't ever buy a spider.

My loss? Maybe.

But, I don't think it is something I want to promote when there are dozens of other beautiful morphs out there that aren't tied to the "wobble".

To each his own though, they are beautiful and obviously can live a healthy life.

[Freakie_frog]

Hmm, that is interesting. When I bred/kept rats (as pets) I sometimes ran into issues with them that looked similar to a spider wobble because of poor eyesight. They bob and weave their heads back and forth to compensate for very poor eyesight (pretty common in albinos).

I've seen that also in our colony.. RI's in rats will also cause it almost like an inner ear infection.. Like I said we simply don't know why they do it they just do..

[MJVbps]

When I first got my spider, he had the "wobbles" pretty good. Three years later, he doesn't "wobble" anymore and is my best breeder male. The female he has sired doesn't "wobble" at all.

[Melissuhhh]

she has every right to be upset, it sounds like it was (as usual) kept 'hush-hush' to a newbie until a sale was made.


Basically spiders have this neurological problem, it is upto you to decide weather you think it's "fine" like everyone says.

We personally chose not to work with (ie reproduce) the spider gene because of this flaw. It has however become commonly accepted because people think spiders are pretty and (like they have all said) spiders seem to manage ok (eat, poo, breed etc)

To say it is not a big deal is wrong, I imagine it IS a big deal when you drop hundreds of dollars on your first ever ball morph only to find out about a well known neurological issue AFTER the purchase. You only say it's normal/accpetable because the breeders that are trying to sell these snakes say it is. Personally, just because they eat and shed (etc), it's no reason to class is as normal or acceptable for a ball python. Would you be happy with a normal that behaved like that?

The "spider wobble" is judged acceptable simply because it doesn't kill them, and because lots of breeders who invested $20-30 GRAND on their first spiders back in the late 90s wanted it to be a non issue and make their investments back.

If people bred mammals with such obvious defects they would be slated.

To just gloss it over to someone new to the hobby as "normal" and basically tell them to stop being upset is a little closed minded IMO.

I would also suggest that someone with an attitude like this has never seen a spider with a real bad case of wither the wobbles or 'corkscrewing'. The worst ones are truly heartbreaking.

What will become "normal" and "acceptable" next? Will the up and coming breeders of ball morphs be telling people it's ok to breed kinked caramels and caramel combos? That it's ok to breed a super cinnamon males with a duck billed face and a kink in it's spine like a golf club?

If the spider gene was discovered in the wild NOW with how the hobby is instead of being found right "back in the day" when the ball morph market was nuts would people still ignore this flaw? or would they say "we have so many other amazing looking morphs we'd prefer not to buy one that can't even tell which way is the correct way up". IMO if the spider gene was WC NOW, today, any responsible breeder would say "well this thing looks great, and it's genetic but if I can't fix this issue with new blood or outbreeding i'll leave it alone."

Thats why i was kind of upset when i found out. My favorite morphs go back to spiders, and i wanted to breed out my own but i don't want to pass this on to any babies. If the wobble condition was severe in any i would feel terrible!! Just because it looks just like dying snakes with ibd.