Line/Inbreeding

[m00kfu]

can we stop saying "breeders" and drop some names people

who?

Dunno who others are (not) mentioning, but Greg Graziani comes to mind. Although from what he was saying on Reptile Radio, it sounds like he believes his success comes more from incubation technique than genetic diversity.

[Bill Buchman]

can we stop saying "breeders" and drop some names people

who?

The smaller breeder would be... me.

7 for 7 -- 5 Caramel Mojaves and 2 Caramels in 2009.

[RandyRemington]

Yes Bill, I was thinking of you. Probably shouldn't have characterized you as a small breeder as I have no idea how many snakes you have produced but just not a huge number of caramels, yet...

The big breeder was Marcus Jane from this thread:

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...t=12137&page=3

where Mr. Mandic reports producing 60+ caramels with no kinks.

I wasn't aware of Greg Gaziani's report. What did he say? Anyone know if his rats eat Mazuri 6F like the other two?

I also remember Morph King Reptiles from several years ago report to produce a large number of not kinked caramels. Interesting that even the people producing them have a lot of different theories on why but maybe with enough information sharing we can find the common link and find a workaround to revive this really cool morph. Otherwise I'm afraid caramel might get replaced by ultramel even though the look really isn't quite the same (nothing against ultramel, just would love to also see lots of healthy unkinked caramels available).

[Bill Buchman]

Yes Bill, I was thinking of you. Probably shouldn't have characterized you as a small breeder as I have no idea how many snakes you have produced but just not a huge number of caramels, yet...

The big breeder was Marcus Jane from this thread:

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...t=12137&page=3

where Mr. Mandic reports producing 60+ caramels with no kinks.

I wasn't aware of Greg Gaziani's report. What did he say? Anyone know if his rats eat Mazuri 6F like the other two?

I also remember Morph King Reptiles from several years ago report to produce a large number of not kinked caramels. Interesting that even the people producing them have a lot of different theories on why but maybe with enough information sharing we can find the common link and find a workaround to revive this really cool morph. Otherwise I'm afraid caramel might get replaced by ultramel even though the look really isn't quite the same (nothing against ultramel, just would love to also see lots of healthy unkinked caramels available).

Small breeder for sure Randy -- and still a novice as well really.

Greg was not specific about number/% of kinking. He did incubate a lower temps -- 86 I think.

There are indeed many theories. I know I will continue to do what I have done thus far: outcross as much as possible, feed Mazuri to feeders, cook at 87 and WET, and be open to anything that will aide in making healthy Caramels.

There are a few small breeders friends, and a larger one, who believe the Mojave gene could be lending a hand in prohibiting kinking. Mojaves are widely agreed to be a robust gene that feeds well, grows fast, and breeds early. Could it also "water down" the inclination for the Caramel gene to kink?

I agree that sharing information and looking for trends is the best course at this point. I will hopefully be producing/releasing some Caramel Mojaves and combo Caramel Hets this year -- and look forward to the success of others with the gene -- a VISUALLY UNIQUE gene.

[Russ Lawson]

Small breeder for sure Randy -- and still a novice as well really.

Greg was not specific about number/% of kinking. He did incubate a lower temps -- 86 I think.

There are indeed many theories. I know I will continue to do what I have done thus far: outcross as much as possible, feed Mazuri to feeders, cook at 87 and WET, and be open to anything that will aide in making healthy Caramels.

There are a few small breeders friends, and a larger one, who believe the Mojave gene could be lending a hand in prohibiting kinking. Mojaves are widely agreed to be a robust gene that feeds well, grows fast, and breeds early. Could it also "water down" the inclination for the Caramel gene to kink?

I agree that sharing information and looking for trends is the best course at this point. I will hopefully be producing/releasing some Caramel Mojaves and combo Caramel Hets this year -- and look forward to the success of others with the gene -- a VISUALLY UNIQUE gene.

Well if Mazuri 6F is what will keep me from hatching kinked caramels, I have nothing to worry about when I end up getting some, haha! It may not be a specific ingredient, just the quality overall. I've noticed the last several times I've been to my local pet store, the rats there just don't look as healthy as mine. They tend to be skinnier and ones around the same age there are always smaller than similar-aged ones I have (their small rats are around the same size as my weaned rats). Now I have no idea what their rodent supplier feeds, but I'd venture a guess to say it's likely not 6F.

As far as the mojave gene having an affect on kinking, I don't really think enough caramel mojaves have been hatched by enough people to draw any decisive conclusions. If the mojave mutation translates to a mutation of tyrosinase (or any other protein that may be involved in the kinking) in and of its own though, it is plausible there could be some affect. If that is the case, you could expect something similar in other members of the BEL complex when crossed with caramels. I doubt just being good feeders, fast growers, and early breeders would do much. In fact, I could see the fast growth contributing more to deformities.

[Bill Buchman]

Well if Mazuri 6F is what will keep me from hatching kinked caramels, I have nothing to worry about when I end up getting some, haha! It may not be a specific ingredient, just the quality overall. I've noticed the last several times I've been to my local pet store, the rats there just don't look as healthy as mine. They tend to be skinnier and ones around the same age there are always smaller than similar-aged ones I have (their small rats are around the same size as my weaned rats). Now I have no idea what their rodent supplier feeds, but I'd venture a guess to say it's likely not 6F.

As far as the mojave gene having an affect on kinking, I don't really think enough caramel mojaves have been hatched by enough people to draw any decisive conclusions. If the mojave mutation translates to a mutation of tyrosinase (or any other protein that may be involved in the kinking) in and of its own though, it is plausible there could be some affect. If that is the case, you could expect something similar in other members of the BEL complex when crossed with caramels. I doubt just being good feeders, fast growers, and early breeders would do much. In fact, I could see the fast growth contributing more to deformities.

Good insights Russ. We may never know if any of the kinking factors that we are analyzing are connected to kinking/reduced kinking?? I am a "scoreboard" guy at the end of the day. I ultimately don't need to "know" why my Caramel stock/production has a much lower kinking % -- as long it does.

If I produce 50 Caramels and Caramel combos over the next 3-4 years and fewer than 10 are kinked, I will have proven to be a HIGHLY successful Caramel producer based on prior reported numbers -- regardless of the reasons. The numbers are what counts -- SCOREBOARD.

Would I like to know the answer(s)"kinking mystery"? YES!!! But I don't need to. Kinking is clearly genetic, and it is my job as a breeder to NOT LET IT HAPPEN.

[Delilah]

I am busy doing more research on ball python genetics. One thing I should mention so far is this. It has been said that ball pythons in the wild inbreed naturally because they can't go far from where they were born. Well, I googled around some articles on wild ball pythons. One fascinating statistic is the shear numbers and population density of wild balls- though in some cases, the population is dwendling due to overharvesting. From what I have read, there would be plenty of oportunity for balls to find unrelated or distantly related partners in their area. And check this out!
http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/
I'm soooo going to get a copy!
Off to do more research!
Later!

[rabernet]

I am busy doing more research on ball python genetics. One thing I should mention so far is this. It has been said that ball pythons in the wild inbreed naturally because they can't go far from where they were born. Well, I googled around some articles on wild ball pythons. One fascinating statistic is the shear numbers and population density of wild balls- though in some cases, the population is dwendling due to overharvesting. From what I have read, there would be plenty of oportunity for balls to find unrelated or distantly related partners in their area. And check this out!
http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/
I'm soooo going to get a copy!
Off to do more research!
Later!

Take some Dramamine before you watch that!

It's an older DVD, with a LOT of shaking that some people have said makes them motion sick! LOL