Line/Inbreeding

[Jay_Bunny]

I've always viewed line breeding as breeding down the line of related animals. Breed father to daughter, breed those offspring together or to a relative, then breed those offspring to a relative, all in order to strengthen or duplicate a desired trait.

[Delilah]

I apologize profusely for my passion on this subject. I did not intend to be rude or offend anyone. I do admit again that I need to learn more about reptile genetics, but I will not go back on anything I have said about genetics in general or the fact that kinks and wobbles can (and have) been bred out. (Unless these reputable breeders are all lying and I doubt that is the case)
My spider does not wobble. So perhaps I will just hold my tongue on the subject and get back to it again in a few years after kinkless and wobbleless snakes are more well known. I can clearly see that this is an utterly pointless discussion. I think I will return to lurking for the time being.

[Matt K]

I'm not meaning to pick a side, so please don't take it that way, but I'm pretty sure it has been proven that Spiders with severe wobble can come from outcrossing a "wobble-less" Spider with any other morph, and vice versa. I mean we don't really know what kind of mutation causes the Spider phenotype to be produced. A frameshift mutation will effect the translation of more than one protein at once, and it very well could be that the proteins being effected involve both the pattern and color of the Spider and the dreaded wobble. If this is the case you would have to pray for a random missense mutation on the base pair that causes the wobble, leaving alone the pattern and color of the morph. I think this would be very unlikely, and even if it were to happen, you wouldn't necessarily catch it. As others have said sometimes the wobble is so subtle it's virtually nonexistent. It would take a great deal of luck in this case to identify the true, "wobble-less" Spider from a "seems to be wobble-less" Spider, and then breed it out over several generations to prove it out. It's obviously not a mutation on just one base pair though, as the wobble and pattern both are so apparent, even after much outcrossing. Hoping for a mutation on a mutation seems like a fools game, especially as most Spiders seem perfectly happy and functional even with wobble present. All that being said I really wouldn't want you to fall back into the shadows over this, I'm sure there is no animosity over this. Differences of opinion happen everywhere, and not one of us will go uncorrected here. Heck, haha, I'm likely to have said something off here that is in need of clarification. If you think you can identify and eliminate the "wobble gene" apart from the pattern, I'm sure we'd all be happy to be proven wrong. I will warn you though that wobblers can and most likely will come from non wobblers, so don't be discouraged if it doesn't work out. People just get touchy when you mention that they are contributing to the downfall of what they love most, unless there is solid evidence behind the statement. Having an apparently wobble-less Spider does not prove that the wobble can be line-bred out, it's just not enough. I wish you the best though, and hope you don't feel discouraged by everyones reactions, it's only natural.

Cheers,
-Matt

[starrlamia]

how many chromosomes do ball pythons have?
line breeding and inbreeding do have their uses when breeding for specific traits in any species. Dogs are a great example of that, but they have a lot more chromosomes then people, hence why there are less problems when they are inbred.

[BPelizabeth]

I have not been in this for long enough to really know much!! Just want to make that point early on!! However hasn't it already been proven that a spider with a little to no visible wobble can and have had babies with lots of wobbles and vice versa. It is what it is!! They still live normal lives...eat..poo...hunt and crawl around normal.

[rabernet]

I apologize profusely for my passion on this subject. I did not intend to be rude or offend anyone. I do admit again that I need to learn more about reptile genetics, but I will not go back on anything I have said about genetics in general or the fact that kinks and wobbles can (and have) been bred out. (Unless these reputable breeders are all lying and I doubt that is the case)
My spider does not wobble. So perhaps I will just hold my tongue on the subject and get back to it again in a few years after kinkless and wobbleless snakes are more well known. I can clearly see that this is an utterly pointless discussion. I think I will return to lurking for the time being.

Please don't go back to lurk mode. We're all passionate about these animals, many of us have been working with them for quite some time, and have discussed this with the industry leaders time and time again. Your claims are NOT what the industry leaders are saying, and so of course, people want to know how you came to your conclusions.

I'm personally unaware of any reputable breeder who will claim that they have spiders (or know of spiders) where the wobble has been bred out. And spiders have been around for quite some time. As I mentioned in the other thread, Kevin McCurley of NERD has stated that all spiders spin, Ralph Davis has pubically stated that all spiders wobble/spin/ are tweaked. These guys have been working with ball pythons for a LONG time, and they've seen far more spiders than you and I have, and know far more people in the business than you and I do - and they still say all spiders spin (or wobble).

I'm also unaware of any reputable breeder that claims that they have a line (other than the Crider aka Ultramel) caramel albino's that don't kink, but then the Crider/Ultramel are considered a completely different morph than the traditional caramel albino. I do know that there's a lot of theory that caramel albino eggs need to be incubated a little cooler and a little drier than most clutches to reduce the incidence of kinking, but that has little to do with line breeding or in-breeding.

I had one of my spiders out last night after this topic was started to see if I could see his wobble. At first I couldn't see it at all, and then ever so slightly, even wondering if it was my hand shaking, I could see the slightest "tremor" in his head. I put him down on a stable surface to rule out my hand movement, and it was there.

I guess what frustrates me personally is that the spider is an awesome mutation, with a condition that "I" believe is genetically linked to the spider (only the spiders, not the normal siblings, spin/wobble). And so many people think that it's such a taboo thing that their spider might also spin/wobble. But those of us who keep spiders and have seen hundreds of spiders, know and believe without a doubt in our minds that all spiders are "tweaked" to varying degrees.

Spiders - you either love them, or you hate/fear them and their wobble. I personally LOVE my four and their uniquely spider personalities. I embrace them for what they are - spiders who wobble. I will never sell any of my spider offspring as "non wobblers" because I don't believe that to be true of any spider. I will take the time to educate my customers who may be new to ball pythons about spiders and what I know about them.

Please know, Delilah, I'm not mad or upset with you - nor taking any of this out on you - I think it's a great discussion - one that I'm passionate about as well.

You do have to recognize though, that mammalian genetics and reptile genetics are somewhat different when it comes to line/in breeding.

[mfkelly]

Long time dog breeders have pretty much followed the rule of 2 line breedings and then go out for 1. By out I mean, doing an outcross. The botton line is EVENTUALLY all that concentration of genes will start to make itself evident in shortened life spans, spins, duck bills, kinks, lowered disease resistance, yada yada yada. In purebred dogs we are seeing a huge increase in auto immune diseases. Some feel that it is linked to the prevalence of shots. The problem is that the weakness is there genetically. The shots just push the immune system over the edge. I don't know for sure but I think that certain snakes BP's, corns ,hogs, etc. will eventually start to have problems as well, its just a matter of how long. For that reason alone we should be keeping detailed breeding records of lineage and if you are bringing in new blood from Africa, know area of origin if possible. Easier said than done I fear! What is interesting is that the same genetic problems that affect a breed of dog here in the states, show up in other parts of the world in (supposedly) unrelated blood lines. My point is selective breeding continually concentrates genes, which might happen in the wild but the weak ones are eaten, killed, can't keep up etc.. We do the same thing in snakes.
Sorry so long and maybe a little off the original post, but hopefully helpful.
Mike Kelly

[OhhWatALoser]

the fact that kinks and wobbles can (and have) been bred out. (Unless these reputable breeders are all lying and I doubt that is the case) (

who?

[Jay_Bunny]

Yes, I would like to know who these "reputable" breeders are that are claiming they have bred the wobble out of spiders and kink out of the caramels.

[Tim Mead]

Heres my 2 cents for what its worth,
Hampsters are long said to be derived from VERY few founding animals,
Are there large scale defects in hampsters ? not to my knowledge..
The King ranch inbred/ linebred both their quarter horses and santa gertrudis cattle..The Horses were all in/linebred for high concentrations of "old sorrel" and they produced outstanding sorrel horses with little white..Genetic defects again not to my knowledge..Two frame type overo horses can be TOTALLY unrelated and produce a lethal white foal..The jaguar gene in carpet pythons is a co'dominant so it appears in the first generation..There has been no excessive inbreeding with them and they also stand a good chance of wobbling..Be it snakes,dogs or horses every organism has defective
properties which on occassion rears it head..We like to think we know alot, but "compared" to what there is to know, we know nothing..
What I do know,,is I always have an opinion or question...