Line/Inbreeding

[Delilah]

I kinda started this topic in another thread, but feel that it is such an important issue it needed its own thread.
Inbreeding/line breeding- When is it ok, when do breeders take it too far, and what damage has been caused by continual inbreeding/line breeding of various morphs.
Wikipedia does a good job of defining the two terms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding (line breeding is linked there)
In spiders we have the wobble, in caramels we have kinks, there's the duckbills in super cinnamon and I think in a few other morphs as as well, right? What other genetic flaws are out there? How many of these flaws have been able to be corrected by responsible breeders who patiently out-cross generations of flawed snakes to healthy snakes to correct the damage? Many kudos and thanks to these breeders!
As a general rule, inbreeding or line breeding for a generation or two will not cause any harm. After about the third generation, you start getting retarded and deformed babies. If you see deformities showing up early, OUT-CROSS to unrelated animals! Then breed those babies together. Yes it takes longer to get the results you want, but you will have a stronger, healthier animal for future generations. What good is a pink snake if it crawls sideways and has a square head?
Here's an example of how serious this can get. In cockatiels, inbreeding was so prevalent that not only were there mutations like a bald spot on the head, thin, curled or missing feathers, and splayed legs, but the life expectancy dropped from 20 to 30 years down to around 5. It was such a serious problem that special arrangements were finally made with Australia to import a number of wild birds to save our captive population.
Genetic diversity is essential to a species' survival! So please, let's breed responsibly!

[Freakie_frog]

In spiders we have the wobble, in caramels we have kinks, there's the duckbills in super cinnamon and I think in a few other morphs as as well, right? What other genetic flaws are out there? How many of these flaws have been able to be corrected by responsible breeders who patiently out-cross generations of flawed snakes to healthy snakes to correct the damage? Many kudos and thanks to these breeders!

None - It's in there..no matter how hard you try to rationalize it morph are mutants, genetic and physiological freak. Your going to have some things that just might not be what you'd see in a "wild type". But why would you compare a genetic freak to a perfectly normal animal. You can't it's apples to oranges.

[Jay_Bunny]

As Freakie_frog said, none. These phenotypes (morphs) are the result of genetic MUTATIONS. These mutations will carry certain flaws with them on occasion (the wobble in spiders). It just goes with the territory. You will not successfully breed the wobble out of the spider. The wobble is attached to the spider gene. If the spider gene is present, the wobble is there. Kinks can happen with any morph due to environmental factors but they are also linked with certain genetic mutations.

You cannot teach a gene how to behave! A gene is like an instruction manual for a certain trait. When a snake inherits the spider gene that gene tells it to display a certain pattern and color AND it will cause the wobbling affect. You can't escape it. Sure there are varying degrees of the wobble, but that is not affected by the gene itself. It is random. A high wobble spider can produce low wobble offspring and the other way around.

Inbreeding is a useful tool to produce desired traits in snakes. You will not cause defects from breeding related animals. It CAN AND WILL happen if you line breed which is continuously breeding closer and closer related animals, but occasional inbreeding is not a problem and doesn't need to be avoided. Yes, genetic diversity is good but that does not mean no one should inbreed their snakes. Many breeders on here will say they inbreed their snakes but will not line breed. This does not make them bad breeders.

[nevohraalnavnoj]

I think there are several things to take into account. First, isn't it typically the case that more developed species are more susceptible to inbreeding than less developed species? I.e. humans versus ball pythons.

Second, I believe susceptibility to the negative aspects of inbreeding is related to how far a species typically travels after birth. Those species that wander far to find a mate are more likely to find less closely related mates than those that only travel a few miles. That being said, is there any data on how far ball pythons travel from the place they were hatched? If it is not very far, then one could expect a great deal of inbreeding in the wild, and so ball pythons would be adapted to deal with this.

JonV

[Delilah]

NOOOOO!!!!! *falls over* *cries*
This situation is worse than I thought! I may not know huge amounts about ball pythons yet as I am just getting into the industry, but I do know a LOT about genetics! If what I am hearing so far is the going opinion of snake breeders then your industry is going to be short lived! Read some books on genetics people! If careless breeding continues, more and more flaws are going to pop up!
Now, about the spider gene. Just because "all spiders wobble" does not mean that "the wobble is connected to the spider gene". This is faulty causal reasoning! The faulty gene that causes wobbling may be closely linked to the spider gene, but "spider" is a color gene and "wobble" would have to be something connected to the nervous system. So I can assure you, they are not the "same gene". Same will be true of kinks in caramels. "Caramel" is a color gene, "kinks" are apparently a flaw in spinal development. Again I assure you, from a scientific standpoint, these genes have NOTHING in common.
The problem with these flaws is that they are not just simple mutations. They do not behave as a basic dominant, co-dominant, or recessive gene would behave. They are far more complex. It is exactly like lines of computer code. Genes in the 'base code' are harder to change. The genes that define what and where eyes go, or how many vertebrae make up a spine are an example of base code. But there are other genes that are variables. These are built in to allow adaptation. COLOR and PATTERN are great examples of these variable genes. These are easily changed to allow for changes in the environment. The problem with repeated line or inbreeding is that it causes 'copy errors' in the base code. In spiders, the pattern is a variable gene, but the wobble is a copy error in the base code.
With responsible breeding to snakes that have correct base code, the error can be fixed while retaining the variable pattern gene. Same for caramels. With proper breeding, the kinks can be bred out while retaining the color morph. -This is of course being done. There are more and more kinkless caramels out there being bred by responsible out-crossing. And there ARE spiders out there that do not wobble.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Spiders are one of the most out bred morph and the wobbling has nothing to do with inbreeding.

Wobbling cannot be bred out, spiders all spin to different degrees, in some it is hardly noticeable especially to people who do not know what to look for, while some other spiders are serious train wrecks.

A spider can spin severely as hatching and barely exhibit the problem full grown and vice versa.

Use the search function to find spider threads.

As a general rule, inbreeding or line breeding for a generation or two will not cause any harm. After about the third generation, you start getting retarded and deformed babies.

And this is based on? Do you have an articles or know any specific breeder that will confirm this.

Have you bred yourself and notice a higher rate of deformed hatchlings after 3 generations? If so what was the percentage?

Do you know that line breeding in corns has been done for way more than just 3 generations without any problem?

Do you know that the same is done with Leos and other reptiles?

Remember that line breeding / inbreeding cold blooded creatures is very different from line breeding / cross breeding other animals.

Does that mean you should never add new blood of course not you should whenever you have the opportunity to however line breeding is not the evil you think it is.

[dr del]

Hi,

I kind of have to say prove it at this point.

Every large breeder who breeds spiders say all spiders wobble - the people who don't and claim their spiders don't wobble can generally be placed in one of two groups, a few people who may not be able to recognise it and some outright crooks.

Spider is a colour and pattern gene - I freely admit to knowing very little about genetics but I do know pattern is developed fairly early in the egg compared to colour.

Also the wobble could be balance related or vision related as well as neurological couldn't it?

The problem with declaring a snake a non-wobbler is that it is already known that the severe, more noticeable, symptoms can start (apparently randomly ) in a snake that has shown no sign of them for years and suddenly stop in a snake that has shown them for years. So, once you snake has lived a full lifespan of 20-30 years you could say it never wobbled but not before.

This makes seperating the potentialy different traits a very longterm endeavour that would demand extremely accurate recording of lineages and breedings.

And this has held true for every combo morph produced that has spider as part of the make up - and that is a lot of outbreeding that has been done over the years.

Does that make sense?

**edit**

Just to clarify something;

I thought copy errors were the result of breeding full stop?

The problem with line/ in breeding is not that it increases the errors in the process but reduces the chances of a "correct" version of the code being involved in the pairing and therefore increases the chance of the error being fixed in later generations isn't it?

Or have I totally misunderstood?

**end edit**


dr del

[Jay_Bunny]

Genetics and how genetics works varies from species to species. You freely admit you do not know a lot about ball pythons. So, you may know a lot about mammal genetics but the genetics of a ball python may be vastly different than that of a mammal. Unless you have SCIENTIFIC proof that you can breed the wobble out of a spider, I'm not going to believe you. I am a responsible breeder and out in the wild, inbreeding happens, especially in organisms that do not travel far to seek mates (ball pythons don't roam Africa far and wide looking for a mate.)

And to insinuate that we are irresponsible breeders because we inbreed (to a degree. I will personally NEVER line breed my animals) is really rude and is not founded in FACT. Bring me a spider that has NO wobble what so ever, not just a breeder saying the spider does not wobble. Bring me a spider that is 20+ years old that has never wobbled and I might believe you. ALL spiders wobble to some degree at SOME point in their life. The spider gene has not been around long enough in captivity to prove that there is NO wobble in spiders.

[Jay_Bunny]

And genes can have more than one effect on an organism. The spider gene clearly shows it affects color AND pattern, so a single gene can affect more than one thing.

[Freakie_frog]

NOOOOO!!!!! *falls over* *cries*
Now, about the spider gene. Just because "all spiders wobble" does not mean that "the wobble is connected to the spider gene".

I lost if all spiders wobble and the normal offspring don't how is it not tied to the gene.

This is faulty causal reasoning! The faulty gene that causes wobbling may be closely linked to the spider gene, but "spider" is a color gene and "wobble" would have to be something connected to the nervous system.

To my knowledge no gene sequencing has been done to prove that the mutation that causes the "spider" variation effect no other system in the body. So there is a chance that the gene does effect other things. Untill proved others wise both sides are merely speculating

Same will be true of kinks in caramels. "Caramel" is a color gene, "kinks" are apparently a flaw in spinal development. Again I assure you, from a scientific standpoint, these genes have NOTHING in common.

'Caramel" a name given to describe a complex genetic mutation in a reptile. Again no study's have been done to prove that the mutation that cause's the skin color change doesn't effect any other system in the body. If the mutation cause the body to not produce a certain pigment it's also possible that the mutation also hinders the body's ability to properly develop bone structures. We know this more than likely the truth because Het caramels don't run the same risk of kinking. Only the homozygous form of the mutation.

With responsible breeding to snakes that have correct base code, the error can be fixed while retaining the variable pattern gene.

Your thinking is flawed..there is no way short of gene splicing to do this..we simply don't have that kind of control over the animals genetics through simple breeding..

Same for caramels. With proper breeding, the kinks can be bred out while retaining the color morph.

It has long been a hope but after almost 15 years and thousands of offspring that statement is looking bleak.

This is of course being done. There are more and more kinkless caramels out there being bred by responsible out-crossing.

Since you seem to have some inside track on loads of info, and can state such things with absolute certainty. What then is the total number of caramels hatched in 2009 and of those what is the ratio of kinked caramels hatched in 2009 to the number of non kinked. Please also present this same info since Caramels first showed up on the scene. This way we can also know that there are more and more kinkless being produced.

Or please hook us up with the info you do have that proves this fact..