Line/Inbreeding

[RandyRemington]

I also believe that the wobbles and kinking are just another tendency of the respective mutations just like the color and in the case of spider also pattern.

However, I have seen a posts by large breeders (at least one of whom I trust) of large number of caramels with no kinks and a smaller breeder with a good run of non kinked caramels started.

While I think the tendency to kink is part of the mutation I think there must be some environmental factor that is reducing the chances of the kinks actually showing up in these collections (I’ve not heard of their customers having any better than average luck with kinking). Not much of a sample size but both of those breeders I'm told feed rats that are fed Mazuri 6F. Perhaps the caramel mutation causes ball pythons to need or not tolerate a nutrient non caramel ball pythons don't need or can tolerate.

It would be interesting to know if the caramels in these no kinking collections are more normal colored at hatching as if the Mazuri compensates for the caramel defect that causes kinking then perhaps it also compensates for the caramel defect that causes the caramel color. Maybe you would want to feed your breeders one diet and then switch the for sale babies to another to maximize color after you are past the spinal development stage.

[Freakie_frog]

I also believe that the wobbles and kinking are just another tendency of the respective mutations just like the color and in the case of spider also pattern.

However, I have seen a posts by large breeders (at least one of whom I trust) of large number of caramels with no kinks and a smaller breeder with a good run of non kinked caramels started.

While I think the tendency to kink is part of the mutation I think there must be some environmental factor that is reducing the chances of the kinks actually showing up in these collections (I’ve not heard of their customers having any better than average luck with kinking). Not much of a sample size but both of those breeders I'm told feed rats that are fed Mazuri 6F. Perhaps the caramel mutation causes ball pythons to need or not tolerate a nutrient non caramel ball pythons don't need or can tolerate.

It would be interesting to know if the caramels in these no kinking collections are more normal colored at hatching as if the Mazuri compensates for the caramel defect that causes kinking then perhaps it also compensates for the caramel defect that causes the caramel color. Maybe you would want to feed your breeders one diet and then switch the for sale babies to another to maximize color after you are past the spinal development stage.

Fascinating.. I wonder then if simply adding some supplement to the parents diet would lessen the chance of kinking.

Great point Randy..

[Jay_Bunny]

Definitely something to ponder and experiment with. (an excuse to get me some caramels....). I wonder then if maybe the Spider's wobble could be some kind of deficient nutrient.

[Tim Mead]

Certainly a possibility..Our rodent chow has added copper and a warning not to feed to sheep..Good thinking..

[RandyRemington]

Tim, what brand of feed is that?

A disclaimer here, this is a WILD theory with very little evidence. I know almost nothing about nutrition and even less about organic chemistry. From links like the following I pick out words like tyrosinase and organic copper and think they may have something to do with Tyrosine (the T in T+/- albinos).

http://www.soulpurposechiropractic.c...r/vitaminc.htm

I don't even know if that website is a reliable source much less the implications of what they are saying.

Anyway, if I eventually try to produce caramels (I have three daughters of the first possible het caramel I saw for sale but no male to breed them to) I'll probably try the Mazuri JUST IN CASE since it's all the same to me and that is actually the brand easiest for me to get. However, just this weekend I was talking to someone who hatched 4 caramels with a 50% kink rate and they would have to actually do something to try the Mazuri (switch wire size on rat feeders) so maybe not worth the effort as unsure as it is to help.

[Russ Lawson]

A disclaimer here, this is a WILD theory with very little evidence. I know almost nothing about nutrition and even less about organic chemistry. From links like the following I pick out words like tyrosinase and organic copper and think they may have something to do with Tyrosine (the T in T+/- albinos).

Tyrosinase is the enzyme which catalyses tyrosine. It contains copper in its active site, so it is plausible that there is connection between the amount of copper intake and the production of tyrosinase. However, that would only account for differences in pigment production. On another note, tyrosinase is responsible for the catalysis of other proteins including melanin. I am not certain, though, if there is any connection between this particular enzyme and something akin to a calcium deficiency or otherwise, which would result in kinking.

[Russ Lawson]

Thought about it a bit more, and wanted to add this bit of information. If a tyrosinase deficiency is responsible for the kinking in caramel albino ball pythons, I have no explanation as to why regular albinos do not have kinking to a far worse extent than caramel albinos, as typical albinism is caused by a tyrosinase deficiency (no tyrosinase = no catalysis of melanin). The difference in caramels is that the tyrosinase is present, but that a mutation causes it to be unable to catalyze melanin. Just some food for thought.

[Russ Lawson]

Ahh, I was thinking about this more and I may have an explanation for my prior statement about regular albinos not having kinking. Suppose the caramel albino's mutated gene translates to a mutation in tyrosinase. The primary affect of this mutation is the obvious failure to produce melanin. On another hand, this mutation could occasionally cause the tyrosinase enzyme to react with another protein that directly impacts the skeletal development in the embryo, resulting in spinal deformities. Though, if this is the case, if you are still to assume copper content in diet has anything to do with the production of tyrosinase, then it may not be the best idea to feed high-copper diet rats to caramel albinos at all if you are attempting to avoid kinking. Now everything stated here is just speculation, but I think it might be important to take into consideration if trying an experiment as such.

Anyway, my apologies for completely derailing the thread and turning it into a cellular biology conversation with myself. I am just completely fascinated with these ideas, to the point that it's been keeping me awake tonight.

[Tim Mead]

Russ and Randy, although speculation, it is active brain matter and thats
definitly to be commended..Whats been stated "could be right"..
We feed an off brand manufactured for Bob Clark, Its said to be dupped from another rat chow..Russ, snake thoughts keep us awake regularly..

[OhhWatALoser]

However, I have seen a posts by large breeders (at least one of whom I trust) of large number of caramels with no kinks and a smaller breeder with a good run of non kinked caramels started.

can we stop saying "breeders" and drop some names people

who?