Line/Inbreeding

[Freakie_frog]

One final note I know for a fact that there are issues atributed to certain genes that when expressed alter other systems or development..Pearl's come to mind..

[Jay_Bunny]

Isn't a pearl a lethal morph? They don't survive long past hatching right, or is that a different morph I'm thinking about?

[Freakie_frog]

Isn't a pearl a lethal morph? They don't survive long past hatching right, or is that a different morph I'm thinking about?

Nope your right..

[Jay_Bunny]

Are there any pictures out there of a pearl? I tried googling it and could only find the lesser pearl, which apparently survives even though it is a pearl.

[Freakie_frog]

Are there any pictures out there of a pearl? I tried googling it and could only find the lesser pearl, which apparently survives even though it is a pearl.

I've got a Pearl pic..I'll see if I can find it..and no the Lesser Pearl also dies.

There is no known Pearl that is living.

[OhhWatALoser]

NOOOOO!!!!! *falls over* *cries*
This situation is worse than I thought! I may not know huge amounts about ball pythons yet as I am just getting into the industry, but I do know a LOT about genetics! If what I am hearing so far is the going opinion of snake breeders then your industry is going to be short lived! Read some books on genetics people! If careless breeding continues, more and more flaws are going to pop up!

Explain how I am about 6 generation down the line of constant inbreeding in my rats. females are still making lots of babies, everyone is still healthy, im still waiting for it to catch up to me, or the breeder I got the rats from in the first place, which he has been inbreeding the same rats for way longer than I have. he estimates hes about 15 generation down the line now. he started inbreeding just to prove a point to everyone who claims what your claiming.

Now, about the spider gene. Just because "all spiders wobble" does not mean that "the wobble is connected to the spider gene". This is faulty causal reasoning! The faulty gene that causes wobbling may be closely linked to the spider gene, but "spider" is a color gene and "wobble" would have to be something connected to the nervous system. So I can assure you, they are not the "same gene". Same will be true of kinks in caramels. "Caramel" is a color gene, "kinks" are apparently a flaw in spinal development. Again I assure you, from a scientific standpoint, these genes have NOTHING in common.

Any ball python breeder could prove you wrong, when 100% of your spiders wobble and 100% of the normals in the same clutch don't for the past 10 years.... whats that say to you?

The problem with these flaws is that they are not just simple mutations. They do not behave as a basic dominant, co-dominant, or recessive gene would behave. They are far more complex. It is exactly like lines of computer code. Genes in the 'base code' are harder to change. The genes that define what and where eyes go, or how many vertebrae make up a spine are an example of base code. But there are other genes that are variables. These are built in to allow adaptation. COLOR and PATTERN are great examples of these variable genes. These are easily changed to allow for changes in the environment. The problem with repeated line or inbreeding is that it causes 'copy errors' in the base code. In spiders, the pattern is a variable gene, but the wobble is a copy error in the base code.
With responsible breeding to snakes that have correct base code, the error can be fixed while retaining the variable pattern gene. Same for caramels. With proper breeding, the kinks can be bred out while retaining the color morph. -This is of course being done. There are more and more kinkless caramels out there being bred by responsible out-crossing.

I have yet to see proof of kinks being bred out other than luck of the draw. out-crossing has nothing to do with it. feel free to find info to prove me wrong, I wish outcrossing was the answer.

And there ARE spiders out there that do not wobble.

Sure there are, I own one, now I do not know if it wobbled as a baby because I got her around 400 grams. and for all the people going to jump on me for that statement, YES i can identify a wobble, I've seen more than enough examples, I know how normals snakes act, I own a jag carpet and she has a wobble, im not joking this spider shows nothing.

problem is everyone thats had a wobbleless spider, the offspring have it. I expect my spider to throw wobbling offspring. people have been trying for a long time to bred it out of them, I mean its a dominant morph, just because of that fact it get outcrossed alot. Now add the fact that you can't make a homozygous form. People almost never inbreed the spiders. It gets outcrossed by design.

IMO the spider gene is proof of everything your saying is wrong.

[Jay_Bunny]

Wow, that sucks because that is one beautiful morph (lesser pearl).

[cinderbird]

genetically, reptiles are much less complicated than mammals. I recall reading corn snakes have been line or inbreed for 11 generations and they have yet to see an issue related to that. With ball pythons i want to say its more like 6 generations.

While you can apply general genetic information to all living things, you can't apply mammalian genetics to reptilian genetics.

Spiders: they are one of THE most out bred morphs because there is no visible super. People aren't breeding spider to spider, or even spider sib to spider sib because they want multi gene animals (bees, spinners, lesserbees, etc).

The failure to thrive of the super jaguar carpet python (leucistic carpet) is thought to be a genetic issue. you CANT solve all genetic problems by out breeding. Like freaky frog said, all spiders wobble. Spider sibs dont wobble. how do you explain that? The wobble and the spider gene are linked.

Just because a gene influences something we see (color/pattern/etc) doesn't mean its not influencing things we dont see. Genetics is not NEARLY that simple. I've taken genetics courses. There are a thousand ways things can happen. I mean look at eye color in humans, there are at LEAST 4 different genes that are linked to assigning eye color and other things. Greated that is mammalian, and we're taking reptilian.

There have been no studies on the genealogy of ball pythons.

[rabernet]

Inbreeding is a useful tool to produce desired traits in snakes. You will not cause defects from breeding related animals. It CAN AND WILL happen if you line breed which is continuously breeding closer and closer related animals, but occasional inbreeding is not a problem and doesn't need to be avoided. Yes, genetic diversity is good but that does not mean no one should inbreed their snakes. Many breeders on here will say they inbreed their snakes but will not line breed. This does not make them bad breeders.

I think you have the definition of linebreeding and inbreeding reversed:

Inbreeding is a breeding technique which pairs closely related animals, such as father-daughter, brother-sister, or cousins. However, the strict scientific definition of inbreeding counts all relationships that are duplicated on both sides of the pedigree. Animal breeders by tradion consider distantly related crosses to be linebreeding rather than inbreeding, but the scientific basis of this concept is not obvious. Linebreeding is in essence a moderate form of inbreeding.

[Jay_Bunny]

I kinda started this topic in another thread, but feel that it is such an important issue it needed its own thread.
Inbreeding/line breeding- When is it ok, when do breeders take it too far, and what damage has been caused by continual inbreeding/line breeding of various morphs.
Wikipedia does a good job of defining the two terms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding (line breeding is linked there)
In spiders we have the wobble, in caramels we have kinks, there's the duckbills in super cinnamon and I think in a few other morphs as as well, right? What other genetic flaws are out there? How many of these flaws have been able to be corrected by responsible breeders who patiently out-cross generations of flawed snakes to healthy snakes to correct the damage? Many kudos and thanks to these breeders!
As a general rule, inbreeding or line breeding for a generation or two will not cause any harm. After about the third generation, you start getting retarded and deformed babies. If you see deformities showing up early, OUT-CROSS to unrelated animals! Then breed those babies together. Yes it takes longer to get the results you want, but you will have a stronger, healthier animal for future generations. What good is a pink snake if it crawls sideways and has a square head?
Here's an example of how serious this can get. In cockatiels, inbreeding was so prevalent that not only were there mutations like a bald spot on the head, thin, curled or missing feathers, and splayed legs, but the life expectancy dropped from 20 to 30 years down to around 5. It was such a serious problem that special arrangements were finally made with Australia to import a number of wild birds to save our captive population.
Genetic diversity is essential to a species' survival! So please, let's breed responsibly!

First of all line breeding and inbreeding are NOT the same thing. You can not LINE BREED for a generation or two. Line breeding involves continuously breeding down the line of related animals while in breeding can be as simple as breeding two distantly or closely related animals once or for a generation or two. Line breeding will certainly give you defects but simple inbreeding will not.

Secondly, I would like to see your PROOF that by the THIRD generation, you WILL begin to see defects. I want recorded proof from several different sources.

Thirdly, you CAN NOT compare avian genetics, mammalian genetics, amphibian genetics, to reptile genetics. Every species is different in how genes interact with an organism.

Fourthly, I do not take kindly to the fact you are pretty much saying any breeder who breeds related individuals (pretty much the MAJORITY of reptile breeders) are not responsible breeders and do not care about the health and quality of their animals.

You need to back up what you are saying with proof and not just "This breeder told me the spider doesn't wobble". Even kinks can be so slight they are almost undetectable but they are still there. I bred two unrelated snakes and either due to incubation problems or genetic problems (we are not sure yet) I lost all of the babies of that clutch, some during incubation, one right before hatching and one after hatching. The one that died right before hatching had SEVERE kinking and was missing an eye. The one that survived a while after hatching had slight kinks (some we didn't even notice were there until later) but did not thrive (could not eat). That was breeding two UNRELATED animals.

My spider wobbles. Will I breed him? You bet! To two females this season actually. Will any spider's he throws wobble? Yes they will. All spiders wobble and you will never be able to breed it out. Spiders have not been around very long and so there is no way you can say there are spiders that do not and will never wobble. Some spiders may not begin wobbling until they are 20 years old! But it is clear that the spider gene is linked to the wobble and if the spider gene is present, you WILL have an animal that wobbles.