Caramels - Are they worth purchasing?

[JMartin]

As someone who has bred a Caramel Het, albeit in a breeding loan situation, and as someone who does not have Caramels or Ultramels at this time, I think I have an ubiased opinion, and it is obvious where I stand on the subject.
Dave

My experience with Caramels:

I had an adult Het Caramel female, SK line, and did a breeding loan with someone who had a visual Caramel male, from the CV Exotics line. We got one Caramel and several Hets. The Caramel was deformed, and either put down, or died on its own. We were not sure if it was kinked, or just deformed. The Hets all looked normal, no physical deformities. The owner of the Caramel male also bred him to several female Hets, as I recall, from a few different lines. EVERY Caramel they produced from each female Het was deformed/ severly kinked.

That, combined with the fact that I talked to a somewhat big, or well known Ball breeder at a show, and they told me they were selling out of Caramels completly, due to producing a ton of kinked babies, made me get out of Caramels too, before I got in too far.

These comments show that you don't have an unbiased opinion. It's pretty obvious that your issues with caramels is drawn from these previous experiences.

[EmberBall]

Unbiased and uneducated are two different things. I have an ubiased opinion now, because I have niether animal now. My opinion is an educated one because I have had Caramels, so I am not going off of what I have heard, or read. I have first hand experience with Caramel breedings, and kinking.

If I had 5 Caramels to sell, my opinion would be biased. If I had $20K invested in Caramels, and hope to produce some this coming year, my opinion would be biased. I don't, I have nothing to gain one way or the other.

I know Caramels kink, from what I have seen, they can kink alot. From what I have heard from other breeders, quietly, 100% of the Caramels they hatched were kinked, to just some kinked. I can imagine after spending $10K on a project, and 2-4 years on a project, what it must be like to have 4 Caramels emerge from the eggs, with a big dent in their backs, or kinks along their bodies....it would suck! That is why they are not worth buying, to me. You can put in all this effort, all for nothing.

Dave

[JMartin]

You don't have to have financial interest in something to have a biased opinion. You stated that you have had a bad experience with caramels, and that you know others that have had the same experience. Your biased opinion is based on these bad experiences.

There are breeders every year that hatch plenty of caramels that are healthy, kink-free animals.

Don't misunderstand me though. I acknowledge the fact that caramels are prone to kinking. All I'm saying is I think your position on the subject is based on a worst case scenario.

[Bill Buchman]

Unbiased and uneducated are two different things. I have an ubiased opinion now, because I have niether animal now. My opinion is an educated one because I have had Caramels, so I am not going off of what I have heard, or read. I have first hand experience with Caramel breedings, and kinking.

If I had 5 Caramels to sell, my opinion would be biased. If I had $20K invested in Caramels, and hope to produce some this coming year, my opinion would be biased. I don't, I have nothing to gain one way or the other.

I know Caramels kink, from what I have seen, they can kink alot. From what I have heard from other breeders, quietly, 100% of the Caramels they hatched were kinked, to just some kinked. I can imagine after spending $10K on a project, and 2-4 years on a project, what it must be like to have 4 Caramels emerge from the eggs, with a big dent in their backs, or kinks along their bodies....it would suck! That is why they are not worth buying, to me. You can put in all this effort, all for nothing.

Dave

Riddle me this Dave???

My Mojave Het Caramel breeder is SK line. I bred him to 3 NERD Het females (CV Exotics works with NERD Caramels) which I purchased directly from Scott Seavey. All three girls produced Caramel Mojaves. 2 of the girls also produced Caramels. The exact same lines you bred produced 7 perfect visuals from my breeding.

Any fair-minded person would surely agree that my biased AND educated production of 7 perfect Caramels from 3 different females would trump 1 deformed one from from yours -- would you?

[EmberBall]

I would say you got good Caramels, we did not. Like I said before, the one we hatched was deformed, and not really what I would call kinked. So, it might be that the Caramel just had some incubation issues...maybe, maybe not. But the other breedings they did with the same male, different females, ALL were kinked like someone dropped a weight plate on their backs. From multiple females.

I am not saying some people do not produce flawless Caramels, the question was asked, are they worth it? I say no, that if there is an alternative, and there is, I would get the Ultramels instead.

Don't get me wrong, visually, the Caramel is one of my favorite morphs, and it pains me not to have any, but I weighed the options, the good, the bad, and made my decision. It is not worth the risk of producing just kinked animals, with all that time and money invested.

[EmberBall]

Where do you live Bill, come on down to Temecula and let's talk about Caramels over some microbrews at the Yardhouse

Dave

[Ryan Young]

Ok a few things. One if you like a morph to the point you can live with its quirks than get it. Weather it is spiders spinning, womas with no viable super, Super lessers having bug eyes, or caramels possibly kinking. If you like the snake and you are willing to deal with the possible consequences of that morph get it. I love Caramels and got a pair when I felt I could deal with the risk at a certain price point.

Who ever feels that Ultramels/criders are a new line of caramels they need to get there head checked. They are not the same morph which has been proven with double hets as well as the 1 in 16 combos. I think it is easy for guys who keep Caramels to start throwing mud so as to try and scare keepers away from them. If they are not the same morph why would you expect them to have the same issues? I have both and love them for what they are. Different morphs that do different things as well as go great together.


Ryan Young

Crider line on top Caramel on the bottom.

[Bill Buchman]

Ok a few things. One if you like a morph to the point you can live with its quirks than get it. Weather it is spiders spinning, womas with no viable super, Super lessers having bug eyes, or caramels possibly kinking. If you like the snake and you are willing to deal with the possible consequences of that morph get it. I love Caramels and got a pair when I felt I could deal with the risk at a certain price point.

Who ever feels that Ultramels/criders are a new line of caramels they need to get there head checked. They are not the same morph which has been proven with double hets as well as the 1 in 16 combos. I think it is easy for guys who keep Caramels to start throwing mud so as to try and scare keepers away from them. If they are not the same morph why would you expect them to have the same issues? I have both and love them for what they are. Different morphs that do different things as well as go great together.


Ryan Young

Crider line on top Caramel on the bottom.

Great photo Ryan.

As I said in previous posts -- DIFFERENT morphs -- apples and oranges.

One point of yours I would take issue with. I see that it is OVERWHELMINGLY "Ultramel" devotees that are promoting the Ultramel as the "New Caramel -- without the pandemic kinking"!! It promises to do everything a Caramel can do -- and more!! And most are implying "fuzzy kinking %" to boot.

[Bill Buchman]

I would say you got good Caramels, we did not. Like I said before, the one we hatched was deformed, and not really what I would call kinked. So, it might be that the Caramel just had some incubation issues...maybe, maybe not. But the other breedings they did with the same male, different females, ALL were kinked like someone dropped a weight plate on their backs. From multiple females.

I am not saying some people do not produce flawless Caramels, the question was asked, are they worth it? I say no, that if there is an alternative, and there is, I would get the Ultramels instead.

Don't get me wrong, visually, the Caramel is one of my favorite morphs, and it pains me not to have any, but I weighed the options, the good, the bad, and made my decision. It is not worth the risk of producing just kinked animals, with all that time and money invested.

Dave, I wish I subscribed to your "good Caramel theory". lol

Genes are genes -- I feel.

And while some Caramel lines might be stronger, mixing with a codom gene is beneficial, outcrossing is likely good, and incubation modifications may help. Breeders working with Caramels are going to encounter kinking at some point in time.

Like I have said, "Cost of working with a morph that can create colors that most morphs cannot". There are MANY choices for breeders who want to to work with morphs that are not problematic.

Hurray for the difference!!!!!!

[JayCee]

I still haven't seen much discussion about the rumored fertility issues associated with Caramels.

If it isn't a rumor, then it is much more important than kinking IMO.