Caramels - Are they worth purchasing?

[Bill Buchman]

The talk that outcrossing Caramels and different lines to produce non kinked babies is just that, talk. I know of a male Caramel being bred to several Het Caramels from different lines, and the babies came out looking like someone karate chopped them in the middle.

Outcrossing MIGHT help in the long run, dry or moist incubation MIGHT help in the future, but I have talked to two big breeders about the issue, and one sold out of their Caramels completly. One is trying lower incubation temps, and less humid egg boxes.....

I will say that I feel the opposite is happening, not that the Ultramel owners are saying that Caramels kink, but that Caramel owners are saying they don't kink, or don't kink all the time.....

I know for a fact that Caramels kink, and that just because you outcross them, does not mean they will not kink.

Dave

Dave, The belief/opinion that Caramels kink, if not stated directly by Ultramel purchasers, is certainly directly implied.

Why else would would one pay $6000 for an Ultramel (roughly $5000 MORE than a Caramel) when it is just as likely to produce combos that are similar as they are to produce something dramatically different or better?

[EmberBall]

Bill, for me, the cost of an Ultramel is too high right now, especially with the economy the way it is. When Het Pairs are $1000, count me in. I think the only people who do not see the Ultramels as the obvious choice when it comes to Caramel looking snakes, are people that spent big bucks on Caramels, and have alot of time and money invested, and probably babies to sell.

As someone who has bred a Caramel Het, albeit in a breeding loan situation, and as someone who does not have Caramels or Ultramels at this time, I think I have an ubiased opinion, and it is obvious where I stand on the subject.

I guess some could argue that a Woma is a Spider substitute, and I would not really argue against that point. But I feel the Ultramel is by far the better choice if money was no object, and if money is the problem, I would choose waiting for an Ultramel to be affordable over buying a Caramel now.

Just my opinion.....

Dave

[Bill Buchman]

Bill, for me, the cost of an Ultramel is too high right now, especially with the economy the way it is. When Het Pairs are $1000, count me in. I think the only people who do not see the Ultramels as the obvious choice when it comes to Caramel looking snakes, are people that spent big bucks on Caramels, and have alot of time and money invested, and probably babies to sell.

As someone who has bred a Caramel Het, albeit in a breeding loan situation, and as someone who does not have Caramels or Ultramels at this time, I think I have an ubiased opinion, and it is obvious where I stand on the subject.

I guess some could argue that a Woma is a Spider substitute, and I would not really argue against that point. But I feel the Ultramel is by far the better choice if money was no object, and if money is the problem, I would choose waiting for an Ultramel to be affordable over buying a Caramel now.

Just my opinion.....

Dave

Dave, I see what you are saying and respect your position -- but is a position that is apples too my oranges. You cannot factor the Ultramel price tag out of the equation.

It is tantamount to saying "I prefer Deserts over Fires or Sulfers, but I am going to wait until Desert males are $500 rather than the $3000 (approx) they currently are -- however long that takes?? Whenever that $500 date is you will be "playing a different game" than those who purchased either a Desert or Fire or Sulfer at 09 prices -- and have been breeding/producing them. It is like that with nearly every newer morph and combo.

I would add that your perception, and others for that matter, that the Ultramel is the CLEAR choice over the Caranmel by nearly everyone in the hobby must certainly be rooted in the belief that ALL Caramel breeding will result in PROFOUND kinking (let's say 50% for arguments sake) and or, the combos from the Ultramel will clearly be superior to corresponding Caramel combos -- neither of those have been substantiated.

[EmberBall]

My experience with Caramels:

I had an adult Het Caramel female, SK line, and did a breeding loan with someone who had a visual Caramel male, from the CV Exotics line. We got one Caramel and several Hets. The Caramel was deformed, and either put down, or died on its own. We were not sure if it was kinked, or just deformed. The Hets all looked normal, no physical deformities. The owner of the Caramel male also bred him to several female Hets, as I recall, from a few different lines. EVERY Caramel they produced from each female Het was deformed/ severly kinked.

That, combined with the fact that I talked to a somewhat big, or well known Ball breeder at a show, and they told me they were selling out of Caramels completly, due to producing a ton of kinked babies, made me get out of Caramels too, before I got in too far.

[marshall]

I think both are worth working with. The Ultramel is a completely different morph. I have both and think both are worthwhile projects. The caramels will have some kinking. Here are pictures of them side by side. I think the caramel has the edge over the ultramel. I really like the purple tints and blushing of the caramel. I have produced 5 caramels and only one was kinked. Some from DH to DH and some from Visual to het. I have only produced hets from the ultramel.

Marshall

[JMartin]

As someone who has bred a Caramel Het, albeit in a breeding loan situation, and as someone who does not have Caramels or Ultramels at this time, I think I have an ubiased opinion, and it is obvious where I stand on the subject.
Dave

My experience with Caramels:

I had an adult Het Caramel female, SK line, and did a breeding loan with someone who had a visual Caramel male, from the CV Exotics line. We got one Caramel and several Hets. The Caramel was deformed, and either put down, or died on its own. We were not sure if it was kinked, or just deformed. The Hets all looked normal, no physical deformities. The owner of the Caramel male also bred him to several female Hets, as I recall, from a few different lines. EVERY Caramel they produced from each female Het was deformed/ severly kinked.

That, combined with the fact that I talked to a somewhat big, or well known Ball breeder at a show, and they told me they were selling out of Caramels completly, due to producing a ton of kinked babies, made me get out of Caramels too, before I got in too far.

These comments show that you don't have an unbiased opinion. It's pretty obvious that your issues with caramels is drawn from these previous experiences.

[EmberBall]

Unbiased and uneducated are two different things. I have an ubiased opinion now, because I have niether animal now. My opinion is an educated one because I have had Caramels, so I am not going off of what I have heard, or read. I have first hand experience with Caramel breedings, and kinking.

If I had 5 Caramels to sell, my opinion would be biased. If I had $20K invested in Caramels, and hope to produce some this coming year, my opinion would be biased. I don't, I have nothing to gain one way or the other.

I know Caramels kink, from what I have seen, they can kink alot. From what I have heard from other breeders, quietly, 100% of the Caramels they hatched were kinked, to just some kinked. I can imagine after spending $10K on a project, and 2-4 years on a project, what it must be like to have 4 Caramels emerge from the eggs, with a big dent in their backs, or kinks along their bodies....it would suck! That is why they are not worth buying, to me. You can put in all this effort, all for nothing.

Dave

[JMartin]

You don't have to have financial interest in something to have a biased opinion. You stated that you have had a bad experience with caramels, and that you know others that have had the same experience. Your biased opinion is based on these bad experiences.

There are breeders every year that hatch plenty of caramels that are healthy, kink-free animals.

Don't misunderstand me though. I acknowledge the fact that caramels are prone to kinking. All I'm saying is I think your position on the subject is based on a worst case scenario.

[Bill Buchman]

Unbiased and uneducated are two different things. I have an ubiased opinion now, because I have niether animal now. My opinion is an educated one because I have had Caramels, so I am not going off of what I have heard, or read. I have first hand experience with Caramel breedings, and kinking.

If I had 5 Caramels to sell, my opinion would be biased. If I had $20K invested in Caramels, and hope to produce some this coming year, my opinion would be biased. I don't, I have nothing to gain one way or the other.

I know Caramels kink, from what I have seen, they can kink alot. From what I have heard from other breeders, quietly, 100% of the Caramels they hatched were kinked, to just some kinked. I can imagine after spending $10K on a project, and 2-4 years on a project, what it must be like to have 4 Caramels emerge from the eggs, with a big dent in their backs, or kinks along their bodies....it would suck! That is why they are not worth buying, to me. You can put in all this effort, all for nothing.

Dave

Riddle me this Dave???

My Mojave Het Caramel breeder is SK line. I bred him to 3 NERD Het females (CV Exotics works with NERD Caramels) which I purchased directly from Scott Seavey. All three girls produced Caramel Mojaves. 2 of the girls also produced Caramels. The exact same lines you bred produced 7 perfect visuals from my breeding.

Any fair-minded person would surely agree that my biased AND educated production of 7 perfect Caramels from 3 different females would trump 1 deformed one from from yours -- would you?