Caramel Pastel Mystery

Hopefully you all remember the thread a couple days ago in which we uncovered the mystery of the "miraculous" pastel het caramel. Ok, I got all the photos-judge for yourselves:

First, the hatchling "pastel" het Caramel, along with a normal het Caramel hatchlinghttp://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/99190pashet-med.jpg

Now the Caramel (pastel?) sire of above:http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/...ramale-med.jpg

So, is he a pastel Caramel? Before you answer, look at his parents below (both caramel hets):http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/99190cardam-med.jpg
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/...arsire-med.jpg
I did not take a pic of the het caramel mother of this clutch-but she is entirely normal-looking.

So, what say you all?

I say: Prove it out! If it is really just a caramel and you breed it to a normal, then you shouldnt get a pastel. Right?

The parents both look normal. But SOMEHOW in the wacky world of ball python genes, you got a pastel in that clutch.....:rolleyes: I can't wait till some more people chime in.

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Originally Posted by Hock3ymonk3y

I say: Prove it out! If it is really just a caramel and you breed it to a normal, then you shouldnt get a pastel. Right?

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That's the problem-I DID breed it to a normal (het caramel), and I DID get a pastel! The second clutch he sired just now pipped-2 eggs, both normal caramel hets. Not enough eggs to begin to prove anything though...

That's certainly odd. That bottom pic, (one of the original parents)

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/...arsire-med.jpg

Doesn't look entirely normal. But doesn't really look that pastel like either. But that baby really DOES look like a pastel. Could it be something new? Or maybe a vanilla or fire or some other light type morph? If it were me, I'd be keeping them all.

I forget... have we addressed the possibility of retained sperm?

I dunno.

The "pastel" baby certainly looks like it is SOMETHING.

The 2nd pic of the 2 parents of the (pastel?) caramel doesn't look like your average normal/het, but doesn't look very pastel either. Any idea if that pic was taking when she was glowing? Or is that her everyday coloration?

We can't even speculate that it is a hidden gene that interacts with the caramel het, because that would show up in either the grandparents, or the het mother, depending on which side it was inherited from.

Hmmmm.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I forget... have we addressed the possibility of retained sperm?

I dunno.

The "pastel" baby certainly looks like it is SOMETHING.

The 2nd pic of the 2 parents of the (pastel?) caramel doesn't look like your average normal/het, but doesn't look very pastel either. Any idea if that pic was taking when she was glowing? Or is that her everyday coloration?

We can't even speculate that it is a hidden gene that interacts with the caramel het, because that would show up in either the grandparents, or the het mother, depending on which side it was inherited from.

Hmmmm.

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This was that female's very first breeding-she has never been caged with any other ball-only the above male Caramel for mating. Also, the female is the first pic-the male is the bottom.

All these pics were taken today.

That does not look like a pastel Caramel and I doubt anyone would produce one and not know it. If she really has never been with another male than however unlikely what sometimes happens in a termite mound in Ghana just happened in your incubator. These morphs come from freek mutations in nature.

Ryan Young

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Originally Posted by Ryan Young

That does not look like a pastel Caramel and I doubt anyone would produce one and not know it. If she really has never been with another male than however unlikely what sometimes happens in a termite mound in Ghana just happened in your incubator. These morphs come from freek mutations in nature.

Ryan Young

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WOAH! That never crossed my mind....... Consider yourself LUCKY man!

Does anyone out there have a Pastel Caramel we can compare the OP's male caramel to?

Wow...how exciting!! It will be interesting to see him ones he sheds(or has he yet?)!

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

Does anyone out there have a Pastel Caramel we can compare the OP's male caramel to?

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I found these with a quick google search:
http://www.morphmakers.com/index.php...d=28&Itemid=37
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1697640,1697640

Could you post pictures of the "pastel's" mother?

Could the male be a vanilla caramel and the mother a vanilla, that would make the baby a super vanilla? Even though its not quite a super vanilla either. :confused: It totally looks like a pastel.

My brain hurts...

Gotta love BP genetics! This is defiantly a mystery and I'm excited for you! I too would keep the clutch as who knows what you have going on. Congrats!!

I say we wait till that "pastel" gets some weight on it's bones ;).

Well guys/gals-I'm beginning to think that we actually have a case of spontaneous mutation here. I plan on keeping that snake and a couple sibs. Plus I will repeat the same pairing next year. So stay tuned, hopefully this story won't get any more "interesting":)

I would have to agree, you have a random spontaneous mutation, it is not common, but has happened before.

I had a friend (who is a biological scientist) breed a pr. of normal Argentine boas together and get a caramel albino in the litter of 12 babies. The parents were normal looking, and in future breedings produced a total of 54 babaies with only 1 caramel, so it was determined to be a random spontaneouse mutation that popped up.

On the plus side, you now have a truly new/fresh line of pastel that is unrelated to anything else on the market.

Congrats.

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

I would have to agree, you have a random spontaneous mutation, it is not common, but has happened before.

I had a friend (who is a biological scientist) breed a pr. of normal Argentine boas together and get a caramel albino in the litter of 12 babies. The parents were normal looking, and in future breedings produced a total of 54 babaies with only 1 caramel, so it was determined to be a random spontaneouse mutation that popped up.

On the plus side, you now have a truly new/fresh line of pastel that is unrelated to anything else on the market.

Congrats.

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I'm a moron-I had not even considered that aspect! That might be the most exciting part of this whole thing. I have one more clutch sired by this male due to hatch in about ten days-if that one has no pastels then that will strongly favor the "spontaneous mutation" hypothesis.

If you get more "pastels" it could also be that your caramel is the spontaneous mutant.

Paternity tests would be so helpful in areas like this. If it does end up seeming like the caramel is also pastel then you could double check that his reported parents are indeed really his parents and if so pretty much nail down exactly where the mutation took place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jnjreptiles

I would have to agree, you have a random spontaneous mutation, it is not common, but has happened before.

I had a friend (who is a biological scientist) breed a pr. of normal Argentine boas together and get a caramel albino in the litter of 12 babies. The parents were normal looking, and in future breedings produced a total of 54 babaies with only 1 caramel, so it was determined to be a random spontaneouse mutation that popped up.
...

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Did that caramel albino baby go on and prove to be genetic? Was it recessive or some type of dominant? I would think most recessive mutations would first produce a het and then the first visual would be later after inbreeding. Maybe one of the Argentine parents was a het and something unexpected happened to get two copies in that one baby.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

If you get more "pastels" it could also be that your caramel is the spontaneous mutant.

Paternity tests would be so helpful in areas like this. If it does end up seeming like the caramel is also pastel then you could double check that his reported parents are indeed really his parents and if so pretty much nail down exactly where the mutation took place.

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I agree-I've double and triple checked this guy's parentage. His parents are definitely the individuals pictured above. We'll be watching these future hatchings and breedings VERY carefully, and I'll keep everyone posted.

It is unlikely that this guy has a pastel parent, unless that slightly odd looking one that was pictured is just the most unpastel-like pastel ever. I considered the possibility of retained sperm in that breeding, but it would have had to be pastel het caramel, and I suspect if the breeder had one of those available, he would not have been breeding the pair that was "just" het caramel.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I considered the possibility of retained sperm in that breeding, but it would have had to be pastel het caramel, and I suspect if the breeder had one of those available, he would not have been breeding the pair that was "just" het caramel.

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I have heard of someone breeding a mojave and a spider male to the same normal female and producing both mojave and spider babies (different sperm fertilized different eggs)- so retained sperm could have been the answer, had the female been locked up with a pastel before the caramel father. The fact that it was a virgin female makes it very interesting...

I was referring to the parents of the caramel father, so the grandparents of the pastel that showed up in this clutch. Sorry I wasn't clear enough.

Ah ok ;)

Congratulations. That is a nice pastel! It will be interesting to see what comes of the same breeding next year.

only issue with that would be,the pastel gene,would have to show up in the caramel produced from the het to het,also impossible,we KNOW it is a caramel dad and het girl,the caramel doesnt appear to be a pastel caramel,and it neight parent was direct pastel het caramel,then it is impossible,

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Originally Posted by RebelYell83

only issue with that would be,the pastel gene,would have to show up in the caramel produced from the het to het,also impossible,we KNOW it is a caramel dad and het girl,the caramel doesnt appear to be a pastel caramel,and it neight parent was direct pastel het caramel,then it is impossible,

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Not impossible, improbable. How do you think morphs come in to being in the first place? Morphs are nothing more than genetic "mishaps" that randomly occur. I personally think the prospect of a spontaneous mutation occurring in a captive bred environment is extremely exciting, especially if it's a co-dom animal.

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Originally Posted by kc261

I was referring to the parents of the caramel father, so the grandparents of the pastel that showed up in this clutch. Sorry I wasn't clear enough.

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this is what i was referencing,,,not the likelyhood of it suddenly happening,,as thats how ALL morphs had to happen

i was addressing the poster saying the het caramel mother retained sperm from a pastel,when it produced the caramel in question

Well, I'm not commenting one way or the other on whether or not he is a pastel caramel vs just caramel based on his looks, because I don't know enough about what a pastel caramel would look like.

However, I did say that if it was an issue of retained sperm, it would have had to be from a pastel het caramel, so I'm not really sure why you are saying that is impossible?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kc261

I considered the possibility of retained sperm in that breeding, but it would have had to be pastel het caramel

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by kc261

Well, I'm not commenting one way or the other on whether or not he is a pastel caramel vs just caramel based on his looks, because I don't know enough about what a pastel caramel would look like.

However, I did say that if it was an issue of retained sperm, it would have had to be from a pastel het caramel, so I'm not really sure why you are saying that is impossible?

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didnt even see that part,or i should say,mis read it,sorry,

I got what seems to be the same thing on 7/13. Out of 5 eggs I got 6 babies (one set of twins) 4 out of 6 of these are very very clean pastel looking animals. I say "pastel looking" because i'm not 100% sure they're pastels, but they definitely look like it. I have pics of the parents breeding, her ovulating 2 days later, and the offspring. How do I post pics on this site if I don't already have them posted on the net?? I also came home today to an albino head sticking out of a clutch I figured was going to hatch tonight. 3 eggs- 2 albinos, 1 het albino.
~Matt Oakley

i upload to photobucket,then insert the img code on here