Caramel Female on Eggs??? Photo???

There has been a bit of buzz of late on whether anyone has SEEN a PHOTO of a Caramel girl SITTING on a VIABLE clutch of eggs? :confused:

Having a few Caramel projects in the works, this question becomes important to me for future breeding.

At first glance, the Caramel on eggs seems like an "Of course there have been!!" question. I can't remember seeing a picture of one on any eggs. Many folks on this forum have been around far longer than I.

Any takers to put this (urban myth -- I HOPE!!! :)) to rest?

I can't remember ever seeing a picture but what is this buzz about? There have been caramel combos produced and I see ads for hatchlings all the time... :confused:

I bred a male Pin to a female Caramel last year...2 good eggs and 4 slugs...Don't have a pic of her on the eggs...I was to pissed when I saw the slugs to take any!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...aramel008l.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spaniard

I can't remember ever seeing a picture but what is this buzz about? There have been caramel combos produced and I see ads for hatchlings all the time... :confused:

---

The concern is that ALL the Caramel combos may have been from Het x Het breedings. :(

I see what you're saying...I hope that isn't the case though. Good luck Bill.

Based on a PM I received today, I feel the need to clarify my post.


A friend of mine and I were talking about 4 months back about my Caramel projects and what I might hold back this season. He mentioned that he can't remember seeing a Caramel girl on eggs or one producing eggs that hatched. That was news to me. Got me thinking though.

I am not breeding any Caramel females this season, but have a very good chance to produce some -- and a couple different visual combos. Are there considerations BEYOND the usual ones as to whether it would be wise hold back a girl for future breeding???

He, and I, are NOT :mad: saying/inferring they don't produce like any of the other recessive morphs. But I would feel MUCH better about MY projects if I were to see MULTIPLE photo and CREDIBLE reports of Caramel girls producing eggs/clutches from Codom visual and VISUAL females.

Caramels have been around going on 10 years. There must be MORE than one Caramel female produce eggs I would think???? :confused:

I will add that with my calculations, it is possible to make any of the Caramel combos and Doubles without a visual Caramel female -- I could be mistaken.

I am not trying to start trouble -- but IF there is there is some genetic SECRET being hidden -- it would certainly not be the first. I am working with three lines of Caramels, and therefore am not someone trying to cast a negative shadow on a morph I am/have no intention of working with in the future.

Has anyone checked Ralph Davis's clutch records yet? Seems like that would be a likely place to find the info you are looking for.

I decided to take a few minutes to see if I could find one quickly. I thought I had it when I came to '08 clutch #61, described as "From breeding a Piebald male to a Caramel Albino female."
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi...thons_7_08.asp

Now here is where the spooky music starts playing... I clicked on the "pic of mom on her eggs" link... and saw a pic of a pied! :O

And, just to add to the mystery, all eggs in the clutch reportedly went bad.

So I'll leave it up to all of you to decide if Ralph made a typo, linked to the wrong pic, or if this is part of some big conspiracy.

BTW, if anyone else wants to dig through more of Ralph's clutch records, I did all of '08, but nothing more than that.

Type in * caramel eggs* into the search bar on the forum, I found a few pictures of caramels on eggs right there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Type in * caramel eggs* into the search bar on the forum, I found a few pictures of caramels on eggs right there.

---

Tried both thread and gallery search. No Caramels on eggs that I could find. :)

I did find a few threads about slugs and infertile eggs though. :(

I found on Ralph Davis clutch records a Male Pied bred to a Caramel Female. I went to click on the link to Mom on Eggs and it was a female pied on eggs bred from a Caramel male. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FIREball

I found on Ralph Davis clutch records a Male Pied bred to a Caramel Female. I went to click on the link to Mom on Eggs and it was a female pied on eggs bred from a Caramel male. :rolleyes:

---

Gee, that sounds familiar. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kc261

I thought I had it when I came to '08 clutch #61, described as "From breeding a Piebald male to a Caramel Albino female."
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi...thons_7_08.asp

Now here is where the spooky music starts playing... I clicked on the "pic of mom on her eggs" link... and saw a pic of a pied! :O

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Type in * caramel eggs* into the search bar on the forum, I found a few pictures of caramels on eggs right there.

---

If you found them, pls post links to the threads, because I can't.

The closest I found was this one, which isn't exactly encouraging:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72721

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kc261

If you found them, pls post links to the threads, because I can't.

The closest I found was this one, which isn't exactly encouraging:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72721

---

Casey, At what point should getting agents Scully and Mulder involved in this mystery be a consideration???? :D;):confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bill buchman

casey, at what point should getting agents scully and mulder involved in this mystery be a consideration???? :d;):confused:

---

lol!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Casey, At what point should getting agents Scully and Mulder involved in this mystery be a consideration???? :D;):confused:

---

Very interesting post Bill.

That's odd on one thread they showed everything and plus showed the offspring.

Guess I should read the entire thread before posting something identical to another

Maybe Matt is referring to this thread:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=77441

It's an update on the thread already posted by Casey and Jeremy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LGL

Maybe Matt is referring to this thread:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=77441

It's an update on the thread already posted by Casey and Jeremy.

---

Thanks for finding and posting this thread Eric. :gj: Sadly, I find find myself no more encouraged. :(:(:(

I realize this thread is not yet 12 hours old. However, if I would have requested a visual female photo on eggs from ANY other recessive that has been worked with for at least the last 5 years -- how many replies/pics would have been posted within the next 48 hours??? Makes me wonder?? Time will tell -- or not!!! :colbert:

I talked to Brian Sharp and he's had clutches from Caramel females...No pics though.

Not sure if it helps, but my caramel female loves breeding, but she's not produced me a clutch yet :8::rofl:

Ditto, We crossed a male ghost to female caramel this year. Can't tell if she took or not, but if she does have a clutch we'll post pics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Thanks for finding and posting this thread Eric. :gj: Sadly, I find find myself no more encouraged. :(:(:(

I realize this thread is not yet 12 hours old. However, if I would have requested a visual female photo on eggs from ANY other recessive that has been worked with for at least the last 5 years -- how many replies/pics would have been posted within the next 48 hours??? Makes me wonder?? Time will tell -- or not!!! :colbert:

---

Sorry Bill, I really don't think so. Frankly I haven't seen any pics of g-stripes on eggs, super pastels on eggs, super Cinnamon/black pastels on eggs, Leucistics on eggs or a lot of other morphs that have been around for a while. (there may be some, I just haven't seen them) Frankly, I haven't even seen THAT many pics of albinos or axanthics on eggs either. I suspect that the lack of pics has less to do with the fertility of the animals in question, and more to do with the notion that by the time people with breedable size morph females get eggs out of them, the novelty of taking pics of every clutch has worn thin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

Sorry Bill, I really don't think so. Frankly I haven't seen any pics of g-stripes on eggs, super pastels on eggs, super Cinnamon/black pastels on eggs, Leucistics on eggs or a lot of other morphs that have been around for a while. (there may be some, I just haven't seen them) Frankly, I haven't even seen THAT many pics of albinos or axanthics on eggs either. I suspect that the lack of pics has less to do with the fertility of the animals in question, and more to do with the notion that by the time people with breedable size morph females get eggs out of them, the novelty of taking pics of every clutch has worn thin.

---

Mark, I respect your opinion and sure hope you are correct. I HOPE I am as WRONG AS WRONG CAN BE!!!! :salute:

Mark has a very good point. It made me curious, so I spent a little more time digging through Ralph Davis's clutch records. And I found pics of the following moms on their eggs: g-stripe, lavender albino, pied, albino, VPI axanthic, and even a platinum (yes, a real platty, not a lesser).

I also find it interesting that of the few people who have spoken up, and the one pic I was able to find searching bp.net, every clutch that has been reported has had at least as many slugs as eggs. And in case anybody hasn't seen it, this same question was raised on kingsnake, and the one reply there was 3 eggs, 3 slugs, no pic. So that leaves us with only the vague "I talked to Brian Sharp and he's had clutches from Caramel females" reported by Jon at Cold Blooded Addiction, and while I totally believe him, that still doesn't specify that they were good clutches that had more eggs than slugs.

I too hope that this is just a combination of some bad luck for those that have had bad or no clutches from their caramel females, and the fact that most breeding age caramel girls are in the hands of those who don't bother to take pics of every clutch. I hope, and tend to believe, that Jon meant Brian had had GOOD clutches from caramel females; I just wish his wording had been a little more specific.

If anyone cares, here are the links:

KS thread:
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1705407,1705407

G-stripe
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/co...tch_mom_40.jpg

Lavender Albino
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/co...utch_mom_8.jpg

Pied
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/co...tch_mom_61.jpg

Albino
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/co...tch_mom_55.jpg

VPI Axanthic
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/co...tch_mom_56.jpg

Platinum
http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/co...tch_mom_76.jpg

man this line just seems to keep throwing curve balls!!

I believe Brock Wagner bred champagne x Caramel female and she totally slugged out.

Well shoot...looks like in couple years I'll be breeding my het caramel pair for pretty pets!

Well, here it is, our caramel girl produced a clutch yesterday, and yep, more slugs than eggs:( Nine total, 7 slugs and 2 eggs candled good. hopefully they will hatch.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...990_724174.jpg

http://theherpvault.com/images/colle...aramelCoil.jpg

sorry to hear that adam.

Dang!!!! Your girl looks to be good size. What is her age and ballpark ovulation weight. I am hoping that another gene will be with the Caramel female will solve the fertility problem -- IF there is one. :confused:

Congrats on the 2 eggs -- may they be girls. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Dang!!!! Your girl looks to be good size. What is her age and ballpark ovulation weight. I am hoping that another gene will be with the Caramel female will solve the fertility problem -- IF there is one. :confused:

Congrats on the 2 eggs -- may they be girls. :)

---

Thanks Bill. She is an 07 and her pre-ovulation shed weight was about 1800 g. She is a pos het ghost but I guess the chances of proving her are going to be kind of slim with two eggs.

Your caramel Mojos are awesome, what were the parents, and whats your experience with caramel females?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by astaley

Thanks Bill. She is an 07 and her pre-ovulation shed weight was about 1800 g. She is a pos het ghost but I guess the chances of proving her are going to be kind of slim with two eggs.

Your Caramel Mojos are awesome, what were the parents, and whats your experience with caramel females?

---

Thanks!!! My next clutch of 7 eggs from a Ph Glow girl is due 9-5-09. I can't wait -- but I must. :rolleye2:


All my Caramel Mojave clutches this year will be from Het Caramel girls. I currently have NO Caramel girls of any size. However, I won't hesitate to hold some back. :gj:

It is only a good thing that folks have become aware of Caramel fertility. Time/breedings will prove "yay or nay" as to whether there is "problem" with the Caramel girls. It does not make sense that there should be?? Genetic infertility is different in "kind" than kinking or spinning.

I feel that over the next 2-3 years Caramel females will prove to be no different than other morphs with regards to their fertility. But make no mistake -- I'll be watching!!! ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill Buchman

Time/breedings will prove "yay or nay" as to whether there is "problem" with the Caramel girls. It does not make sense that there should be?? Genetic infertility is different in "kind" than kinking or spinning.

---

Do you think so? I dunno ... I know nothing about the caramel morph aside from what I've read on the forums, but I think it is totally feasible that caramel females may have naturally lower fertility than other morphs. It could be that for whatever reason, their genetics dictates that they produce fewer ova per ovulation than the average female BP, the conformation of their oviduct may be somewhat off, or perhaps have a slightly less hospitable environment for sperm (too basic or too acid, or what have you) ... Who knows! (I sure don't -- it'll be a long dang time before I can afford a caramel female to prove it for myself :P )

If it does turn out to be the case that caramel females have low fertility, I don't think it'd be the end of the morph by a long shot -- it would just be another one of those morph "quirks" that breeders need to bear in mind, like not breeding albino to albino in boa morphs.

If it does turn out to be the case that caramel females have low fertility, I don't think it'd be the end of the morph by a long shot -- it would just be another one of those morph "quirks" that breeders need to bear in mind, like not breeding albino to albino in boa morphs.[/QUOTE]

Agreed!!! In fact, it might increase value of Caramel visuals and combos because you need to "creative" with pairings/projects because you can't count on the Caramel female being what would be considered "normally productive".

Quote:

---

Agreed!!! In fact, it might increase value of Caramel visuals and combos because you need to "creative" with pairings/projects because you can't count on the Caramel female being what would be considered "normally productive".

---

Also agree, plus, there will be less caramels produced.

my female (Bell line).
http://www.qualitysnakes.it/uploads/news/small/54.jpg
she's a '08 and was paired with a calico male

the clutch was composed by 3 fertile eggs and 4 slugs.

ps 2 years ago a friend of mine got 5 good eggs from a caramel female (Bell line like mine) bred with a pastel and he got 1.1 pastel het caramel and 2.1 het caramels. gotta ask if he still has pics

From my friend Els from Ballpythons.nl .

only one egg shows good veigns.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...gverkleind.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...gverkleind.jpg


I myself am waiting for a clutch from a PastelCaramel girl to a Pastel het. Caramel
male, I will show you when she has layed her clutch ;)

So, I'm a little bit of a nerd here.

Okay, more than a little bit.

I wanted to see what the actual numbers were, so I collected all of the clutch data that I could find to tally them up.

I included only clutches with numeric clutch data, provided by the breeder him or herself. I did not include photographs in which the exact number of eggs to slugs couldn't quite be quantified, and I did not include non-numeric anecdotes such as "I bred my caramel female last year and she slugged out," or "My buddy produced a good clutch from his caramel female."

Even using those inclusion criteria, I was surprised how many clutches I was able to tally. Here's what I have so far (I didn't write down whose clutch it was I tallied; should probably do that later to avoid future repetition ...):


Raw data

Clutch 1: 3 slugs, 2 eggs

Clutch 2: 4 slugs, 2 eggs

Clutch 3: 7 slugs, 2 eggs

Clutch 4: 5 slugs, 2 eggs

Clutch 5: 4 slugs, 1 eggs, 1 boob

Clutch 6: 7 slugs

Clutch 7: 6 slugs, 2 eggs

Clutch 8: 1 slug, 3 eggs

Clutch 9: 3 eggs

Clutch 10: 3 slugs, 1 boob

Clutch 11: 1 slug, 5 eggs


Total laid: 65

Total slugs: 41 (63%)

Total eggs: 22 (34%)

Total boobs: 2 (3%)


If you count the "boobs" as good eggs (since many are known to hatch), that bumps it up to 37% eggs, 63% slugs.

So, so far it looks like a little over 1/3 good, 2/3 slugs, with an average (or is it mean?) of two good eggs per clutch.

Please feel free to correct my math if you catch an error ...

where are my data?:confused:

ps my friends doesn't have a pic of the female on the eggs, but that female is due to lay again soon. I asked him for pictures.

Great work Serpent! Here is a link to another thread from BLBC, maybe you can cross reference and combine the data.

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=20146


I've noticed a lot of these girls have narrow heads, anyone else notice this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quality_Snakes

where are my data?:confused:

ps my friends doesn't have a pic of the female on the eggs, but that female is due to lay again soon. I asked him for pictures.

---

Hmmm, that's weird -- annnd this is why I need to go through and label the clutch data with whose clutch it is -- I would've sworn I included yours, but obviously I didn't!

jsmorphs I did comb the thread from BLBC -- I'm going to go over both threads again tomorrow, though, and annotate the data so I know whose clutch is whose. That'll also make it easier for others to add to the list, I think.

I know that for awhile Brock Wagner had some infertile caramel clutches posted on his blog/breeding records, but I couldn't find the blog on his new site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsYbiPXi6XM


Here's a caramlel on 3 good eggs one slug

alright i have been watching this thread and thought i would look for myself and after watching people look for photos i went and looked for videos which personally i think is better but heres the second video to the link above lol 3 eggs and 1 slug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9_SQpZ4Rqw&NR=1

Okay, new tally, with annotations.

I couldn't for the life of me figure out where I got Clutch 5 from, so I didn't include it in the data. I left it in there with a question-mark though, in case someone else can figure out where it came from ... :confused:

I also realized that I'd overlooked a couple in the threads, plus duplicated one clutch that was double-posted by husband and wife in two different threads.

Again, my inclusion criteria was: numberic clutch data posted by the breeder. I didn't make pictures a requirement as long as there was actual, numeric data posted by the breeder him or herself. I also did not include any clutches that only had a picture, but no numbers, since I don't have x-ray vision to see under the coiled female :rolleyes:

So, here's the revised version -- the actual percentages are very similar to the first go-round.

Internet caramel female statistics:

Clutch 1 (Els via Saskia): 3 slugs, 2 eggs

Clutch 2 (Jon Courtney): 4 slugs, 2 eggs

Clutch 3 (Adam Staley): 7 slugs, 2 eggs

Clutch 4 (hgrub): 5 slugs, 2 eggs

Clutch 5 (????): 4 slugs, 1 eggs, 1 boob

Clutch 6 (George at Morphmadness): 7 slugs

Clutch 7 (Sean Bradley): 1 slug, 3 eggs

Clutch 8 (Sean Bradley – same female as above): 3 eggs

Clutch 9 (Tim Bailey): 3 slugs, 1 boob

Clutch 10 (dzbreptiles): 1 slug, 5 eggs

Clutch 11 (Quality Snakes): 4 slugs, 3 eggs

Clutch 12 (Dustan): 8 slugs, 1 egg


Clutches with only pictures (no numeric data):

TSK: 6-7 slugs, 1-2 eggs
CV exotics: 2-3 slugs, 2-3 eggs (difficult to tell from pic)


Total laid: 67

Total slugs: 43 (64%)

Total eggs: 24 (36%)

^clutch 12.....i would be devasted......i dont think im ever going to breed my 09 caramel female :( im selling her anyways i guess

I also got a second clutch of all slugs from the Caramel female I bred...

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...el-Female-Laid......

Yikes! Well, thanks for compiling all that information! Hopefully it will save some people from heartbreak, or at least prepare people to deal with the possibility of all/mostly slugs!

Yeah, the interesting (and especially lousy) part is, even though the data comes out at right around 2:1 slugs to eggs (Jon's 2nd clutch brings it much closer to exactly 2/3 slugs and 1/3 eggs) -- it seems like no matter the size of the clutch, you can expect no more than 2-3 good eggs.

The best so far is dzbreptiles' clutch with five eggs (and yes, that one had picture proof ;) ).

So, I dunno. I will say that mine is a mostly academic interest, though I do have a very lovely caramel male (that I actually added after learning about the caramel females' fertility issues) that I'm hoping to use towards caramel mojaves. I am sort of wondering what to do with that project's way in the future female caramel offspring, though ...

Looking at the data I've compiled so far, my thought is that it'll be worth it to raise up those caramel daughters even if they only give me a couple of eggs, as long as they're bred to a powerful enough male. (I mean, hey, mares and cows only give one baby a year!) If I figure the cost of raising up a female from a baby is a couple hundred bucks, using the right male, she could still potentially pay for her board with one or two offspring -- if she does produce those 2-3 eggs that are statistically expected.