woma lessers

ok so I personally think these are some of the most beautiful BPs around for being two completely different looking morphs. I keep hearing this and that about "hidden gene womas" blah blah blah. Technically speaking, if all womas have the same genes, (because they ARE womas, like a spider would have genes for being a spider, at least visually speaking) couldn't you just take any ol' woma and any ol' lesser and make one? Or am I missing something?

You are missing something :)

There appear to be 2 distinct populations of woma morph in captivity. Both of them have the "woma gene" but only one of them carries an additional gene, the so called "hidden" gene. As far as I know only NERD offers hidden gene woma

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Originally Posted by asplundii

You are missing something :)

There appear to be 2 distinct populations of woma morph in captivity. Both of them have the "woma gene" but only one of them carries an additional gene, the so called "hidden" gene. As far as I know only NERD offers hidden gene woma

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Ah...I see so if I wanted to do this I guess I should go to NERD then...damn...Thanks though!

you need hidden gene from both parents for a soul sucker. so you need a hidden gene carrier woma and a hidden gene carrier lesser.

even then there is a 1/16 chance of hitting the soul sucker. i think it works as a 1/4 chance, being as you have 1/4 chance of a woma lesser it would be 1/16 for a soul sucker wouldnt it? with it needing the woma lesser and 2 copies of the hidden gene?

Isnt the woma's hidden trait what created the "pearl"? Just curious, i know i have asked this before, but i have a horrible memory:rolleyes:

What is the soul sucker? Does anyone have pics?

http://www.exoticsbynature.com/tinley06/nerd8.jpg :gj:

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Originally Posted by juddb

Isnt the woma's hidden trait what created the "pearl"? Just curious, i know i have asked this before, but i have a horrible memory:rolleyes:

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yeah, it's a pretty snake but I hear that they have some kind of genetic defects and they don't really thrive.

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Originally Posted by joshthaxton

yeah, it's a pretty snake but I hear that they have some kind of genetic defects and they don't really thrive.

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Im not positive but i think only one was produced and died early on.

Yea woma lessers are really nice. NERD has the nicest i've seen though, check them out on this NERD page:
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ll-python.html

wow they are beautiful:)

Thanks for the pics...They are beautiful...

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Originally Posted by nelson77321

you need hidden gene from both parents for a soul sucker. so you need a hidden gene carrier woma and a hidden gene carrier lesser.

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I do not think that is accurate.

I could be wrong on this but IIRC the belief now is that the "hidden" gene is just another allele in the white snake (lesser/mojave/butter/Russo/Phantom/etc) complex. And, as such, if an animal had 2 copies of the "hidden" allele it would not be able to carry the lesser allele. So, basically, a SoulSucker is a Platinum (or PlattyDaddy to use Ralph's term) woma

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Originally Posted by asplundii

I do not think that is accurate.

I could be wrong on this but IIRC the belief now is that the "hidden" gene is just another allele in the white snake (lesser/mojave/butter/Russo/Phantom/etc) complex. And, as such, if an animal had 2 copies of the "hidden" allele it would not be able to carry the lesser allele. So, basically, a SoulSucker is a Platinum (or PlattyDaddy to use Ralph's term) woma

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But I just wanna make a regular lesser x woma (http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ll-python.html) I mean soul suckers are great, but its not like I'll ever be able to afford the 4,500$ price tag just for the woma, and on top of that the soul suckers themselves are like 20,000$. So again, could I just do it w/ a regular woma and lesser or would I still need the "hidden gene"?

If you want to make just a regular (and I use the term loosely) woma x lesser then you do not need the "hidden" gene. Only need the "hidden" for a SoulSucker.

Here's a picture from Exotics by Nature's site of a regular, non-hidden gene woma x lesser cross:

http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona06/bhb21.jpg

There's also been some mojave x woma crosses produced that look similar. As far as I know, the only one who's produced any combos with that hidden gene expressed has been NERD.

Also, the hidden gene in the woma is different from the one that is in platinums. If they were the same I would have expected to see platinums popping up in NERDs clutches as well.

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Originally Posted by jluman

Also, the hidden gene in the woma is different from the one that is in platinums. If they were the same I would have expected to see platinums popping up in NERDs clutches as well.

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I do not know that it is certain they are not the same. I thought I heard somewhere Kevin speculated they were the same (could easily be mistaken on that though.) Also, the absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence... NERD may have just missed making a platty in their breeding of "hidden" gene woma x lesser. After all, it is possible to breed 100% hets and not get a visual for 2 or 3 or 4 years... Or maybe NERD has made platty's and they just are not talking about it...

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Originally Posted by asplundii

I do not think that is accurate.

I could be wrong on this but IIRC the belief now is that the "hidden" gene is just another allele in the white snake (lesser/mojave/butter/Russo/Phantom/etc) complex. And, as such, if an animal had 2 copies of the "hidden" allele it would not be able to carry the lesser allele. So, basically, a SoulSucker is a Platinum (or PlattyDaddy to use Ralph's term) woma

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its a hidden gene in the woma's not the lessers that causes the soul sucker. but in order to get that you need to breed hidde gene woma x lesser. then hold the off spring back to breed for the soul sucker.

ive got this info from a reliable source, who owns the only other soul sucker outside of NERD.

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Originally Posted by nelson77321

its a hidden gene in the woma's not the lessers that causes the soul sucker. but in order to get that you need to breed hidde gene woma x lesser. then hold the off spring back to breed for the soul sucker.

ive got this info from a reliable source, who owns the only other soul sucker outside of NERD.

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I did not say the "hidden" gene was in the lesser. What I said was that the "hidden" gene that is in NERD's woma is the same (or very near the same) as the "hidden" gene that is in RDRs "daddy" animals and that from what I recalled the consensus was that this gene is an allele to the others in the white snake complex.

And the means by which you say you have to breed to get a SoulSucker are not mutually exclusive from what I have said. There is more than one way to skin a cat after all

Plus, I have said no less than 6 times that I am not 100% on anything I am saying. I am speculating based on the information that is available, which is really all any of us can do because the fact of the matter is that no one really knows what is going on with the "hidden" gene (or genes if you think there are more than one of them). It is all still work in progress. I know what I would like to see done that I think would settle the matter but I am not presumptuous enough to email Ralph and tell him what I think he ought to do. But until it does get done we are all just playing a guessing game.

I don't know anything about the woma "hidden" gene, but I thought I would clear up that a Pearl is a super woma. And they are fatal. For some reason they just don't survive long. But a Peral has is just from a woma x woma.

I wonder if the "hidden" gene would help the pearl survive...

Of course all of this is conjecture, but what might be even more likely than the Platty daddy gene would be the CRYSTAL. It is a very subtle morph when you see it on its own, thats why tom baker called the gene that makes a crystal the "special". I notice the soulsucker has blue eyes(at least as a baby) and yet it is not an all white snake? also, the crystal gene doesnt make a white snake but rather lets color come through. And finally, Kevin posted an angel of death or something and called it a ,"reverse engineered crytal". mmmmmm. i guess we will see.

Here's the thing I don't get about this whole "hidden gene" stuff:

If it is a "gene" and not just a segment of the Woma gene then when you breed it to another snake outside of the inbred super hidden gene womas you will wind up with het hidden genes (shush before you start saying dominant) which if you then bred that off with something you would produce possible het hidden gene offspring... i think you see where this is going...

So you breed a hidden gene Woma to a Lesser and you all of a sudden have a het hidden gene woma lesser. Goodie... Until you breed that to something. Lets say you interbreed them and breed 2 het hidden gene woma lessers together, well then half of the offspring will be het, a quarter will be homo and then the other quarter will be NO HIDDEN GENE

Then you have to think: all of a sudden you have hidden gene carrying lessers... or heck even het hidden gene carrying BELs... you start breeding these off... all of a sudden no one knows what carries which gene, who has it... just some people have better looking snakes? why? why not you? you both spent the same amount on the gosh darn snake, now why are you producing snakes that don't glow the same way as others, huh?

Then the hidden gene starts to infect more and more snakes... and people have to start killing eachother for hidden genes, what will you do in a world thrown upside down by random snakes with genes no one can tell are there until they make certain mixtures? AAAAAAAGH!!!

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Here's the thing I don't get about this whole "hidden gene" stuff:

If it is a "gene" and not just a segment of the Woma gene then when you breed it to another snake outside of the inbred super hidden gene womas you will wind up with het hidden genes (shush before you start saying dominant) which if you then bred that off with something you would produce possible het hidden gene offspring... i think you see where this is going...

So you breed a hidden gene Woma to a Lesser and you all of a sudden have a het hidden gene woma lesser. Goodie... Until you breed that to something. Lets say you interbreed them and breed 2 het hidden gene woma lessers together, well then half of the offspring will be het, a quarter will be homo and then the other quarter will be NO HIDDEN GENE

Then you have to think: all of a sudden you have hidden gene carrying lessers... or heck even het hidden gene carrying BELs... you start breeding these off... all of a sudden no one knows what carries which gene, who has it... just some people have better looking snakes? why? why not you? you both spent the same amount on the gosh darn snake, now why are you producing snakes that don't glow the same way as others, huh?

Then the hidden gene starts to infect more and more snakes... and people have to start killing eachother for hidden genes, what will you do in a world thrown upside down by random snakes with genes no one can tell are there until they make certain mixtures? AAAAAAAGH!!!

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oh my god thank you. That was the point I was trying to get across. If there even is "a hidden gene" in the womas, they would have been so vastly dispersed by now it should not be so hard to find. I'm not trying to call BS on NERD, but they cannot be the ONLY ones that have these "hidden gene womas". Think about it, what are the odds that a WC or CBB snake has a hidden gene? And on top of that, what are the odds that you'll breed it to something and then figure out 'Hey, this normal BP is het for something weird.' In my opinion it sounds more of a marketing ploy, than anything else. That's like saying my doberman pinscher has a hidden gene that will make his offspring hets, and you breed those together and get a purple doberman, AND I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS IT. Doesn't that just sound kinda sketchy?

I can guarantee you that NERD is not "sketchy".

No one has produced the Soul Sucker or Soul Sucker 2.0 except for NERD. I know that Kevin is going to be very particular about who he sells any woma's with the hidden gene to.

If the hidden gene had "infected" other morphs, you'd be seeing a lot more Soul Suckers.

It is fun watching everyone make wild speculations though! :gj:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I can guarantee you that NERD is not "sketchy".

No one has produced the Soul Sucker or Soul Sucker 2.0 except for NERD. I know that Kevin is going to be very particular about who he sells any woma's with the hidden gene to.

If the hidden gene had "infected" other morphs, you'd be seeing a lot more Soul Suckers.

It is fun watching everyone make wild speculations though! :gj:

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I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to say that NERD is sketchy, just the idea of a hidden gene sounds kinda....odd...for lack of a better word. I know that Kevin would be particular about who he sells his woma hidden gene BPs too, which is also a way of cornering a market, which he has every right to, especially if he discovered it. My theory is just that if he discovered that his woma had a hidden gene, what's there to say that a bunch of other WC or CB womas don't have the same hidden gene. That's all, I wasn't trying to call him a liar or say that he is sketchy. He has produced some of the most beautiful snakes I have ever seen.

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Originally Posted by joshthaxton

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to say that NERD is sketchy, just the idea of a hidden gene sounds kinda....odd...for lack of a better word. I know that Kevin would be particular about who he sells his woma hidden gene BPs too, which is also a way of cornering a market, which he has every right to, especially if he discovered it. My theory is just that if he discovered that his woma had a hidden gene, what's there to say that a bunch of other WC or CB womas don't have the same hidden gene. That's all, I wasn't trying to call him a liar or say that he is sketchy. He has produced some of the most beautiful snakes I have ever seen.

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It could also be a one of a kind thing too. Just like there's only been one spider ever found in the wild, and every spider today is a direct descendent of that founding animal.

Who's to say that there was only one woma that had the hidden gene and all hidden gene woma's will descend from Kevin's founding animal?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

It could also be a one of a kind thing too. Just like there's only been one spider ever found in the wild, and every spider today is a direct descendent of that founding animal.

Who's to say that there was only one woma that had the hidden gene and all hidden gene woma's will descend from Kevin's founding animal?

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That is exactly what I was trying to say

A few more things:

The hidden gene in the woma is not the same as the hidden gene in the platinum. A few years ago NERD was selling lessers that were hidden gene (from the woma/soulsucker) carriers. If the hidden gene from the platinum was involved, the lesser couldn't carry it. With that gene, a snake can be a lesser, or a hidden gene carrier, if both genes are present it would be a visual platinum.

The hidden gene in the woma or platinum lines isn't the same as what makes the crystals. BHB has produced snakes that look very similar to crystal using lessers. Here's a pic, from EBN's site again.

http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona06/bhb4.jpg

Also, Tom Baker produced a super of the morph that makes crystals when bred to a mojave. RDR produced I think 40+ eggs from hiden gene carrier to hidden gene carrier breedings and didn't get any visual morphs.

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Originally Posted by joshthaxton

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That is exactly what I was trying to say

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No, not really:

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but they cannot be the ONLY ones that have these "hidden gene womas".

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My point is that they CAN be the only ones that have these hidden genes, if their animal was the only one that ever came out of Africa with that gene - just like there was only one spider that ever came out of Africa.

If Kevin hasn't sold anyone hidden gene woma's (and if he has, it's only been to very select people), then it would make sense that only Kevin has woma's with the hidden gene.

With all the woma's out there, no one else has been able to produce the Soul Sucker and Soul Sucker 2.0 (though many have tried) with the woma's that are widely available. To me, that only proves that Kevin's woma's DO have something different.

That, and I've talked with Kara at length about their woma's, as I hope to one day be able to add a hidden gene woma to my collection.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

No, not really:



My point is that they CAN be the only ones that have these hidden genes, if their animal was the only one that ever came out of Africa with that gene - just like there was only one spider that ever came out of Africa.

If Kevin hasn't sold anyone hidden gene woma's (and if he has, it's only been to very select people), then it would make sense that only Kevin has woma's with the hidden gene.

With all the woma's out there, no one else has been able to produce the Soul Sucker and Soul Sucker 2.0 (though many have tried) with the woma's that are widely available. To me, that only proves that Kevin's woma's DO have something different.

That, and I've talked with Kara at length about their woma's, as I hope to one day be able to add a hidden gene woma to my collection.

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That is close to what I was trying to say. I don't believe that there was only one woma to ever come out of africa. Ball python breeding has been around for decades, and who is to say that they didn't find another WC african woma? How would you know that a normal looking woma wouldn't carry the hidden gene, unless you proved it out by breeding it to a lesser? Along w/ that, how would kevin have known that a woma x lesser made a soul sucker? In his earlier days he could have been trying to produce something else w/ a woma, and instead sold the "hidden gene" womas by accident as normal looking womas. If that happened, the "hidden gene" womas could be all over the world and no-one knows it. On top of that, how many people (specifically) do you know that have tried to produce soul suckers w/ regular womas and lessers? I think the "hidden gene" theory is just BS. I think to make a soul sucker it is a combination of genes, like a triple co-dom, rather than 2 co-doms + hidden gene.

Speaking purely about genetics, if all ball pythons have the same DNA (to be a Ball Python), then Womas will have the DNA to be a ball python, but their phenotype (color/pattern) would be to be a Woma. Going w/ that analogy, all womas would have the DNA to be a ball python, and the expressive phenotype for a woma. Womas should then also carry the "hidden gene" along w/ their phenotype, simply because it was in their DNA to start with.

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I don't believe that there was only one woma to ever come out of africa. Ball python breeding has been around for decades, and who is to say that they didn't find another WC african woma? How would you know that a normal looking woma wouldn't carry the hidden gene, unless you proved it out by breeding it to a lesser?

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I never said that there was only one woma to come out of Africa. I said it was possible that only one woma with the hidden gene could have come out of Africa.

I'm quite sure when the Soul Sucker was first produced that most people who had woma's and lessers in their collections have tried and failed to re-produce it. Why has no one else produced it? Hidden gene woma.

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Along w/ that, how would kevin have known that a woma x lesser made a soul sucker? In his earlier days he could have been trying to produce something else w/ a woma, and instead sold the "hidden gene" womas by accident as normal looking womas.

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Well of course he wouldn't know it would make a soul sucker until he produced it. Just like he didn't know he'd make an inferno until he put three genes together. Until the first one is produced, you won't know what you're going to get.

Kevin has told me that hidden gene womas have markers that set them apart from "normal" woma's. That's how he knew it was different. Kevin is a professional with years of experience and an eye to be able to tell when an animal is special or different from the norm.

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I think the "hidden gene" theory is just BS. I think to make a soul sucker it is a combination of genes, like a triple co-dom, rather than 2 co-doms + hidden gene.

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You are entitled to your opinion. However, knowing Kevin and Kara as I do as friends, I will choose to believe what they tell me is true. And I'm so willing to believe it, that I'm also going to be willing to pay MUCH more for a hidden gene woma from Kevin when I'm ready for one, than a "normal" woma.

I know that the hidden gene is not BS, but if you've decided it is, there's not much that can be said to change your mind. :rolleyes:

Alright but the thing I wanna know is:

Is it really a "hidden" gene, aka an entirely different gene than the Woma gene, OR is their Woma gene just a higher end mutation. I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to produce combos and breed them off and take tallies of which offspring show the signs of the hidden gene and which offspring show no signs of the hidden gene.

Also what is all this Soul Sucker 2.0 jazz?

Oh and by making tallies of which show signs of it I mean: If any of the ones that SHOULD show signs of it do not, then it is a different gene, if you can never produce one that doesn't show signs of it then it should be viewed as a higher end version of the Woma gene.

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Alright but the thing I wanna know is:

Is it really a "hidden" gene, aka an entirely different gene than the Woma gene, OR is their Woma gene just a higher end mutation. I suppose the only way to know for sure would be to produce combos and breed them off and take tallies of which offspring show the signs of the hidden gene and which offspring show no signs of the hidden gene.

Also what is all this Soul Sucker 2.0 jazz?

Oh and by making tallies of which show signs of it I mean: If any of the ones that SHOULD show signs of it do not, then it is a different gene, if you can never produce one that doesn't show signs of it then it should be viewed as a higher end version of the Woma gene.

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I think you are making some valid points. Its so interesting that people think the "hidden gene" came from the Woma. It DIDNT!! The Woma that sired the Soulsucker was 3nd or 4th generation, produced from a "weird" female.That Female is the Key not the Woma! The woma was first produced by NERD in 1999. THe Soulsucker was made in 2005. The math tells all. And of course, NO ONE has made a soulsucker from lesser to woma. Not Jeremy stone, not BHB, not Snakekeeper, etc. And those are from Woma's that came from Nerd.

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Originally Posted by roadrunner

I think you are making some valid points. Its so interesting that people think the "hidden gene" came from the Woma. It DIDNT!! The Woma that sired the Soulsucker was 3nd or 4th generation, produced from a "weird" female.That Female is the Key not the Woma! The woma was first produced by NERD in 1999. THe Soulsucker was made in 2005. The math tells all. And of course, NO ONE has made a soulsucker from lesser to woma. Not Jeremy stone, not BHB, not Snakekeeper, etc. And those are from Woma's that came from Nerd.

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I couldn't have stated it better myself, thanks :banana:

Even more perplexing than the mysterious ingredients of the Soul Sucker, is that one of the great marketing strategies in ANY market has gone unnoticed!!!

I would argue that it matters less whether or not we know/think we know what any of Kevin's "clandestine gene combos" truly are. Mattering most is that we continue to revisit any number of Kevin's creations to ponder their ingredients!!!

Truth be told, most would agree there are more than a few morphs and combos equal to NERDS in visual beauty. I find no less than a dozen that I find MORE attractive/compelling to my eye.

However, it is the "cloak of mysterious ingredients" that Kevin's animals wear that DEMANDS our attention. As the saying goes, "Any pub is good pub -- just make sure you spell the name right."

A valuable lesson learned for this beginning breeder -- BIG TIME!!! Withheld ingredients = high project interest!!! The Evil Morph God is without question a breeding visionary. Moreover, I would humbly submit that he sits alone atop Mount Olympus when it comes to project marketing and management...:bow::bow::bow:

Thank you for that background, I was not aware of any of that info. Just going off what Kevin said on Reptile Radio I got the impression they were the same "hidden" gene. What you say would indicate otherwise.

More projects for the genetics mill...

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Originally Posted by jluman

A few more things:

The hidden gene in the woma is not the same as the hidden gene in the platinum. A few years ago NERD was selling lessers that were hidden gene (from the woma/soulsucker) carriers. If the hidden gene from the platinum was involved, the lesser couldn't carry it. With that gene, a snake can be a lesser, or a hidden gene carrier, if both genes are present it would be a visual platinum.

The hidden gene in the woma or platinum lines isn't the same as what makes the crystals. BHB has produced snakes that look very similar to crystal using lessers. Here's a pic, from EBN's site again.

http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona06/bhb4.jpg

Also, Tom Baker produced a super of the morph that makes crystals when bred to a mojave. RDR produced I think 40+ eggs from hiden gene carrier to hidden gene carrier breedings and didn't get any visual morphs.

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