woma lessers

[roadrunner]

Of course all of this is conjecture, but what might be even more likely than the Platty daddy gene would be the CRYSTAL. It is a very subtle morph when you see it on its own, thats why tom baker called the gene that makes a crystal the "special". I notice the soulsucker has blue eyes(at least as a baby) and yet it is not an all white snake? also, the crystal gene doesnt make a white snake but rather lets color come through. And finally, Kevin posted an angel of death or something and called it a ,"reverse engineered crytal". mmmmmm. i guess we will see.

[Oxylepy]

Here's the thing I don't get about this whole "hidden gene" stuff:

If it is a "gene" and not just a segment of the Woma gene then when you breed it to another snake outside of the inbred super hidden gene womas you will wind up with het hidden genes (shush before you start saying dominant) which if you then bred that off with something you would produce possible het hidden gene offspring... i think you see where this is going...

So you breed a hidden gene Woma to a Lesser and you all of a sudden have a het hidden gene woma lesser. Goodie... Until you breed that to something. Lets say you interbreed them and breed 2 het hidden gene woma lessers together, well then half of the offspring will be het, a quarter will be homo and then the other quarter will be NO HIDDEN GENE

Then you have to think: all of a sudden you have hidden gene carrying lessers... or heck even het hidden gene carrying BELs... you start breeding these off... all of a sudden no one knows what carries which gene, who has it... just some people have better looking snakes? why? why not you? you both spent the same amount on the gosh darn snake, now why are you producing snakes that don't glow the same way as others, huh?

Then the hidden gene starts to infect more and more snakes... and people have to start killing eachother for hidden genes, what will you do in a world thrown upside down by random snakes with genes no one can tell are there until they make certain mixtures? AAAAAAAGH!!!

[joshthaxton]

Here's the thing I don't get about this whole "hidden gene" stuff:

If it is a "gene" and not just a segment of the Woma gene then when you breed it to another snake outside of the inbred super hidden gene womas you will wind up with het hidden genes (shush before you start saying dominant) which if you then bred that off with something you would produce possible het hidden gene offspring... i think you see where this is going...

So you breed a hidden gene Woma to a Lesser and you all of a sudden have a het hidden gene woma lesser. Goodie... Until you breed that to something. Lets say you interbreed them and breed 2 het hidden gene woma lessers together, well then half of the offspring will be het, a quarter will be homo and then the other quarter will be NO HIDDEN GENE

Then you have to think: all of a sudden you have hidden gene carrying lessers... or heck even het hidden gene carrying BELs... you start breeding these off... all of a sudden no one knows what carries which gene, who has it... just some people have better looking snakes? why? why not you? you both spent the same amount on the gosh darn snake, now why are you producing snakes that don't glow the same way as others, huh?

Then the hidden gene starts to infect more and more snakes... and people have to start killing eachother for hidden genes, what will you do in a world thrown upside down by random snakes with genes no one can tell are there until they make certain mixtures? AAAAAAAGH!!!

oh my god thank you. That was the point I was trying to get across. If there even is "a hidden gene" in the womas, they would have been so vastly dispersed by now it should not be so hard to find. I'm not trying to call BS on NERD, but they cannot be the ONLY ones that have these "hidden gene womas". Think about it, what are the odds that a WC or CBB snake has a hidden gene? And on top of that, what are the odds that you'll breed it to something and then figure out 'Hey, this normal BP is het for something weird.' In my opinion it sounds more of a marketing ploy, than anything else. That's like saying my doberman pinscher has a hidden gene that will make his offspring hets, and you breed those together and get a purple doberman, AND I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS IT. Doesn't that just sound kinda sketchy?

[rabernet]

I can guarantee you that NERD is not "sketchy".

No one has produced the Soul Sucker or Soul Sucker 2.0 except for NERD. I know that Kevin is going to be very particular about who he sells any woma's with the hidden gene to.

If the hidden gene had "infected" other morphs, you'd be seeing a lot more Soul Suckers.

It is fun watching everyone make wild speculations though!

[joshthaxton]

I can guarantee you that NERD is not "sketchy".

No one has produced the Soul Sucker or Soul Sucker 2.0 except for NERD. I know that Kevin is going to be very particular about who he sells any woma's with the hidden gene to.

If the hidden gene had "infected" other morphs, you'd be seeing a lot more Soul Suckers.

It is fun watching everyone make wild speculations though!

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to say that NERD is sketchy, just the idea of a hidden gene sounds kinda....odd...for lack of a better word. I know that Kevin would be particular about who he sells his woma hidden gene BPs too, which is also a way of cornering a market, which he has every right to, especially if he discovered it. My theory is just that if he discovered that his woma had a hidden gene, what's there to say that a bunch of other WC or CB womas don't have the same hidden gene. That's all, I wasn't trying to call him a liar or say that he is sketchy. He has produced some of the most beautiful snakes I have ever seen.

[rabernet]

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to say that NERD is sketchy, just the idea of a hidden gene sounds kinda....odd...for lack of a better word. I know that Kevin would be particular about who he sells his woma hidden gene BPs too, which is also a way of cornering a market, which he has every right to, especially if he discovered it. My theory is just that if he discovered that his woma had a hidden gene, what's there to say that a bunch of other WC or CB womas don't have the same hidden gene. That's all, I wasn't trying to call him a liar or say that he is sketchy. He has produced some of the most beautiful snakes I have ever seen.

It could also be a one of a kind thing too. Just like there's only been one spider ever found in the wild, and every spider today is a direct descendent of that founding animal.

Who's to say that there was only one woma that had the hidden gene and all hidden gene woma's will descend from Kevin's founding animal?

[joshthaxton]

It could also be a one of a kind thing too. Just like there's only been one spider ever found in the wild, and every spider today is a direct descendent of that founding animal.

Who's to say that there was only one woma that had the hidden gene and all hidden gene woma's will descend from Kevin's founding animal?

That is exactly what I was trying to say

[jluman]

A few more things:

The hidden gene in the woma is not the same as the hidden gene in the platinum. A few years ago NERD was selling lessers that were hidden gene (from the woma/soulsucker) carriers. If the hidden gene from the platinum was involved, the lesser couldn't carry it. With that gene, a snake can be a lesser, or a hidden gene carrier, if both genes are present it would be a visual platinum.

The hidden gene in the woma or platinum lines isn't the same as what makes the crystals. BHB has produced snakes that look very similar to crystal using lessers. Here's a pic, from EBN's site again.

http://www.exoticsbynature.com/daytona06/bhb4.jpg

Also, Tom Baker produced a super of the morph that makes crystals when bred to a mojave. RDR produced I think 40+ eggs from hiden gene carrier to hidden gene carrier breedings and didn't get any visual morphs.

[rabernet]

[/B]

That is exactly what I was trying to say

No, not really:

but they cannot be the ONLY ones that have these "hidden gene womas".

My point is that they CAN be the only ones that have these hidden genes, if their animal was the only one that ever came out of Africa with that gene - just like there was only one spider that ever came out of Africa.

If Kevin hasn't sold anyone hidden gene woma's (and if he has, it's only been to very select people), then it would make sense that only Kevin has woma's with the hidden gene.

With all the woma's out there, no one else has been able to produce the Soul Sucker and Soul Sucker 2.0 (though many have tried) with the woma's that are widely available. To me, that only proves that Kevin's woma's DO have something different.

That, and I've talked with Kara at length about their woma's, as I hope to one day be able to add a hidden gene woma to my collection.

[joshthaxton]

No, not really:



My point is that they CAN be the only ones that have these hidden genes, if their animal was the only one that ever came out of Africa with that gene - just like there was only one spider that ever came out of Africa.

If Kevin hasn't sold anyone hidden gene woma's (and if he has, it's only been to very select people), then it would make sense that only Kevin has woma's with the hidden gene.

With all the woma's out there, no one else has been able to produce the Soul Sucker and Soul Sucker 2.0 (though many have tried) with the woma's that are widely available. To me, that only proves that Kevin's woma's DO have something different.

That, and I've talked with Kara at length about their woma's, as I hope to one day be able to add a hidden gene woma to my collection.

That is close to what I was trying to say. I don't believe that there was only one woma to ever come out of africa. Ball python breeding has been around for decades, and who is to say that they didn't find another WC african woma? How would you know that a normal looking woma wouldn't carry the hidden gene, unless you proved it out by breeding it to a lesser? Along w/ that, how would kevin have known that a woma x lesser made a soul sucker? In his earlier days he could have been trying to produce something else w/ a woma, and instead sold the "hidden gene" womas by accident as normal looking womas. If that happened, the "hidden gene" womas could be all over the world and no-one knows it. On top of that, how many people (specifically) do you know that have tried to produce soul suckers w/ regular womas and lessers? I think the "hidden gene" theory is just BS. I think to make a soul sucker it is a combination of genes, like a triple co-dom, rather than 2 co-doms + hidden gene.

Speaking purely about genetics, if all ball pythons have the same DNA (to be a Ball Python), then Womas will have the DNA to be a ball python, but their phenotype (color/pattern) would be to be a Woma. Going w/ that analogy, all womas would have the DNA to be a ball python, and the expressive phenotype for a woma. Womas should then also carry the "hidden gene" along w/ their phenotype, simply because it was in their DNA to start with.