Intresting global warming story

Hi,

Ran across this story on el reg and thought you might find it enlightening.

Clicky. :D


dr del

well i'll tell you what i got out of it- even the big wigs in climate research still have no idea what the climate is doing.

also, after reading a little bit more, i get the feeling that the scientific community is rebelling against the status quo that gore established. you have hundreds of respected researchers now running away from the global warming theory to distance themselves from people like gore. i suspect over the next few years- unless some serious scientific proof comes out for either side- we will see the scientific community level out on the issue

I can't stand it when science gets mixed up with politics like this. Science should be science, and politicians should only be able to get at it from the outside... NOT the inside...

Now because of this, nobody is going to have a clear answer one way or the other, and whether or not global warming is caused by men, we sort of look like chickens running with our heads cut off right now...

I smile at things like this. I'd also like to point out, and I'll have to have a friend of mine dig it out, that most of those "scientists" who signed up for Global Warming were psychologists, and any Tom, Rick, or Harry who wanted to hop aboard. Gotta love it.

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Originally Posted by Melicious

I smile at things like this. I'd also like to point out, and I'll have to have a friend of mine dig it out, that most of those "scientists" who signed up for Global Warming were psychologists, and any Tom, Rick, or Harry who wanted to hop aboard. Gotta love it.

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True. You see the same thing with the anti-evolution crowd. They run around saying "we have a petition with 1000's of Ph.D's saying evolution is a farce" and then 99% of those Ph.D's aren't even in a related field. Both sides are always looking for ways to one up the other. So who really knows what the truth is?

No mention was made about any compensation or access to funds for personal research by any of those who once thought one thing, espoused it as truth, and have now changed their minds.

I'd like to know where the Earth has cooled. We are having hotter days more often than ever before. We'll be breaking records later this week as a matter of fact. Our rainfall is off severely.

How can the antarctic ice be growing when burgs the size of small cities are falling off daily? Has anyone looked at Iceland lately? The glaciers there have retreated, MELTED, for MILES AND MILES from where they were just a few years ago.

Who CARES if it's totally man made? The fact is, the Earth IS warming, the oceans are rising and whether you blame your neighbor or not changes NOTHING.

Also, that guy has been out of NASA for the last FIFTEEN years. I'm sure he is keeping right up with the forefront of research by all the reading he's been doing.

Let's hear from someone who's shoes have graced the halls of NASA in the last, oh.... let's say coupla years not decade and a half.

Politics aside, the world is changing. I don't see how 6 billion eating, breathing, pooping, farming, polluting occupants could effect something as big as the entire planet. Can you?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

No mention was made about any compensation or access to funds for personal research by any of those who once thought one thing, espoused it as truth, and have now changed their minds.

I'd like to know where the Earth has cooled. We are having hotter days more often than ever before. We'll be breaking records later this week as a matter of fact. Our rainfall is off severely.

How can the antarctic ice be growing when burgs the size of small cities are falling off daily? Has anyone looked at Iceland lately? The glaciers there have retreated, MELTED, for MILES AND MILES from where they were just a few years ago.


oh yea and for your information its greenland not iceland
Who CARES if it's totally man made? The fact is, the Earth IS warming, the oceans are rising and whether you blame your neighbor or not changes NOTHING.

Also, that guy has been out of NASA for the last FIFTEEN years. I'm sure he is keeping right up with the forefront of research by all the reading he's been doing.

Let's hear from someone who's shoes have graced the halls of NASA in the last, oh.... let's say coupla years not decade and a half.

Politics aside, the world is changing. I don't see how 6 billion eating, breathing, pooping, farming, polluting occupants could effect something as big as the entire planet. Can you?

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i dunno about your views on temps but here the temps are colder than the last few years. what i have seen is shifts from when it starts to get cold to when it warms up in the spring. on another note our planet rotates on more than one axis and personally i think our poles move somewhat over the years.
i have seen where they said ice has melted but yet there is also thickening of the ice in other places. heck at one time where i live was all ice im sure it will be eventually again in due time

I've never bought into global warming, though I was rooting for it so I could avoid winters like the one we are having now.

oh yes and its greenland not iceland

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Originally Posted by nixer

i dunno about your views on temps but here the temps are colder than the last few years. what i have seen is shifts from when it starts to get cold to when it warms up in the spring. on another note our planet rotates on more than one axis and personally i think our poles move somewhat over the years.
i have seen where they said ice has melted but yet there is also thickening of the ice in other places. heck at one time where i live was all ice im sure it will be eventually again in due time

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Do you wonder WHY temps are colder? What is making things different now than they were for the last hundred years or more that we have records for? We know that ice is melting. We know that you're having more ice and snow. I wonder if that would be the resting place for all that melting ice?

It's complicated. You can't just look at one little area to determine global changes.

Record lows, highs, droughts, floods, all on the increase.

Why? What's changed?

It's not about placing blame, it's about acknowledging facts. Things are changing. Fact. Not all of the changes are good for the continued welfare of mankind.

I'm sweating in Jan. here and you've got more snow and ice than ever.

How does that happen?

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Originally Posted by nixer

oh yes and its greenland not iceland

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This is EXACTLY why I generally ignore anything you say.

Had I meant Greenland I would have written Greenland.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This is EXACTLY why I generally ignore anything you say.

Had I meant Greenland I would have written Greenland.

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good then ignore it! you need to learn alot of geography! perhaps you should be heading off to rutgers now :colbert:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

No mention was made about any compensation or access to funds for personal research by any of those who once thought one thing, espoused it as truth, and have now changed their minds.

I'd like to know where the Earth has cooled. We are having hotter days more often than ever before. We'll be breaking records later this week as a matter of fact. Our rainfall is off severely.

How can the antarctic ice be growing when burgs the size of small cities are falling off daily? Has anyone looked at Iceland lately? The glaciers there have retreated, MELTED, for MILES AND MILES from where they were just a few years ago.

Who CARES if it's totally man made? The fact is, the Earth IS warming, the oceans are rising and whether you blame your neighbor or not changes NOTHING.

Also, that guy has been out of NASA for the last FIFTEEN years. I'm sure he is keeping right up with the forefront of research by all the reading he's been doing.

Let's hear from someone who's shoes have graced the halls of NASA in the last, oh.... let's say coupla years not decade and a half.

Politics aside, the world is changing. I don't see how 6 billion eating, breathing, pooping, farming, polluting occupants could effect something as big as the entire planet. Can you?

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It DOES matter. Sure, I'll take the argument that the earth IS warming. Not that I believe it... YET, we haven't had enough data gathering to prove one way or the other. Remember the global-cooling crowd of the 80's? But, the Ice Age came and melted and there's nothing to say that it won't happen again.
But, what REALLY MATTERS is when people try to force PUBLIC policy on a populus based on the unproven theory that what they are doing is causing global warming. I don't remember there being SUVs during the Ice Age meltdown. When the government passes a bill that you have to replace your roof within the next 5 years without provisions for how the job is going to be paid for (as happened in a city in Germany) to prevent global warming, that's when I say... HEY, wait a minute!
Or when nations come together in Kyoto and come up with a protocol that highly industrialized countries have to pass Kyoto standards of clean air to prevent global warming but others are exempt and American citizens start shouting on their rooftops about how America is a bad, bad country for not agreeing with it. That's when I say, okay guys, take your emotions aside and think about this for a minute. On one hand, Americans are complaining left and right about how they are losing their jobs, they can't afford this or that, gas is too expensive, the economy sucks (they've been saying this for years, not just last year). And then on the other hand, they want other nations to dictate their environmental policies.
Okay, I know some of you are not getting this, so let's put it at a simplistic hypothetical scenario. Say, Pencil-making company of Small-Town Alabama spends 10 cents to make one pencil. It used to cost only one penny but with the Federal government imposing EPA standards, now it costs him 10 cents. He sells the pencil to Walmart for 25 cents. Now, because of having to meet Kyoto protocol (mostly administrative paperwork and red-tape because EPA covers most of it already), it will now cost him 25 cents to make one pencil. So, to keep profit margins, he will have to sell the pencil to Walmart for 38 cents. So then here's Shanghai Pencil-Making Company in China and Bombay Pencil-Making Company in India. They are exempt from most of the Kyoto regulations because they are developing industries. So, they can keep on polluting the environment (no such thing as EPA in China or India), popping out pencils for a penny apiece, turns around and sells it to Walmart for whopping 25 cents making a killer profit margin. Of course Walmart is going to buy it from Shanghai Company or Bombay Company. Small-Town Alabama just got kicked out of the competition. So what does Small-Town Alabama Pencil-making company do? MOVE TO INDIA! DUH! And to top it all off, the air is still polluted.
So, yes, IT DOES MATTER.
What we need is to compete in the global market and WIN. Because with our EPA standards, we are BETTER than anybody else out there. If we can knock China or India out of the competition, then their production becomes limited and the air-polluting plants will be minimized.
We can keep the air clean, limit carbon emissions, recycle, be responsible earth-dwellers without needing the government to mandate it and tax it and whatever else they want to do with it that does nothing else but kill the American industry.
And know that you can do all this and the earth could still warm up. But then, so what? Then tourism in Maine will be high year-round with their white sandy warm beaches. Or maybe we can finally grow rice in Antarctica. My point is, all of us - plants and animals together - will adapt or will die. Just like the Siberian Tigers and the Wooly Mammoth and the dinosaurs who crapped much larger crap than our seemingly overpopulated humans and I'm sure emitted a tanker full of carbon dioxide every single time they farted.
But then, hey, this is all just my own ramblings from my own vat of inexpert opinions.

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Originally Posted by Smith285

I've never bought into global warming, though I was rooting for it so I could avoid winters like the one we are having now.

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I wouldn't say global warming is not occuring or is occuring. If you look into research done by drilling down through thousands of years of ice building in the artic evidence exists that this has happened several times before as well as various degrees of ice age. I think it was back in the 70's or around then talk was we were entering a "mini" Ice age. What ever that meant. In the end regardless of what we do mother earth will be here. Just maybe not as we think it should be.

By the way I'm in Ohio and rooting for it as well. Speaking of which I got to get back to work so we can get this coal fired power plant back on line to help! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I wouldn't say global warming is not occuring or is occuring. If you look into research done by drilling down through thousands of years of ice building in the artic evidence exists that this has happened several times before as well as various degrees of ice age. I think it was back in the 70's or around then talk was we were entering a "mini" Ice age. What ever that meant. In the end regardless of what we do mother earth will be here. Just maybe not as we think it should be.

By the way I'm in Ohio and rooting for it as well. Speaking of which I got to get back to work so we can get this coal fired power plant back on line to help! :rolleyes:

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yes that was when we had the big blizzard of 79.(link provided for whoever wants to read about it)
http://www.super70s.com/Super70s/Tec...79-Chicago.asp

Global dimming

look it up, its an interesting phenomenon

global warming is really interesting to me. expecailly give my field. we are seeing northward migations of several native species. the boundraries of where these speices occur are gowing. one great examle is the upside down jelly fish. it was once a caribbean species and now streches above tampa bay. does this mean global warming exisits......maybe. just becasue its cold now doesn't mean its not cold elsewhere. as i recall we had record highs in america all over right before it got real cold. wilomn is right about the ice. ships can now go above canada through the artic sea year around. they used to only be able to go that way during summer months. where is the water????? guess!! why do you think hurricanes are getting stronger? why did the jetties fail?? water levels are getting higher! dont' believe me?!?! tell that to the people in New Symenra beach who lost their mulit million dollar homes as well as restaurant into the ocean this past hurricane season. did man cause all this.......(http://www.theoildrum.com/uploads/12/sst_global.jpg)

yes the earth fluctuates temps all the time. our axis is not stable and our rotation isn't always perfect but for these changes to happen, something big is causing it. so fine i will give you secptics that this may be a warm time for the earth but explain to me how oxygen levels have significantly dropped and carbon dioxide levels are increasing at a rapid rate? (http://www.globalwarminghoax.com/com...ment.news.83.1) (http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/acpp/imag..._woodshole.jpg).

the fact is we are more than likely the casue. we can't prove it because it is extemely hard to prove. i can't find the one graph but it shows the temp increse sence the industrial revolution to now and the climb is more severe than it has ever been. it also showed the drop in oxygen and the rise in carbon dioxied during the same period.

the problem is not too many people want to do anything about it so they will make excuses. oil drives the economy has for the last 8 years we have had someone in charge directly related to oil. ethanol is a perfect fuel that is east to make and renewable but we have to process it. wind energy is on the rise again but is being fought by many. it sad that we as a people can destory a planet but aren't willing to try and make it better. and dont' say that we didn't. because we surely did!!

some info on 2008's record highs (http://weather.about.com/od/globalwa...mer08temps.htm)

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This is EXACTLY why I generally ignore anything you say.

Had I meant Greenland I would have written Greenland.

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Originally Posted by nixer

good then ignore it! you need to learn alot of geography! perhaps you should be heading off to rutgers now :colbert:

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I did a search for "Iceland glaciers global warming" and "Greenland glaciers global warming" and both search results had many articles and videos about the glaciers melting at a rapid rate.

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

I did a search for "Iceland glaciers global warming" and "Greenland glaciers global warming" and both search results had many articles and videos about the glaciers melting at a rapid rate.

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This is true.

I, however, was speaking specifically of Iceland, which I knew when I posted it.

The water has warmed, the ice is melting, things are changing. The one new element since the last ice age ended thousands of years ago is the population; us.

Just bringing some new info to the plate.

Global Warming is very real (obviously). The reason why we are only hearing about its effects in Antartica and areas of large glaciers and not here (in our backyards sorta speak) is simple and is somewhat recently discovered. The ice in Antartica (and in other glaciers that contains ice that is 1000s of years old) contains frozen carbon, which when melted goes in the air and creates the green house effect. What we ,carbon emissons wise, did was give a lil nudge, a nudge that is now creating a snowball effect in those said areas. Sooo basically, what is happenin in Antartica and other places like it, is just a taste of whats in store for us in the future.

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Originally Posted by Jyson

Just bringing some new info to the plate.

Global Warming is very real (obviously). The reason why we are only hearing about its effects in Antartica and areas of large glaciers and not here (in our backyards sorta speak) is simple and is somewhat recently discovered. The ice in Antartica (and in other glaciers that contains ice that is 1000s of years old) contains frozen carbon, which when melted goes in the air and creates the green house effect. What we ,carbon emissons wise, did was give a lil nudge, a nudge that is now creating a snowball effect in those said areas. Sooo basically, what is happenin in Antartica and other places like it, is just a taste of whats in store for us in the future.

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Yeah, I know I watch waayyy too much Discovery channel. :D

Right now for a local weather change, we've had several freezes overnight in florida, but overall it's been way warmer than a normal winter! To me it's not that it's overall colder, or warmer but that it's more unstable.

The weather is so in flux that the temps fly up and down, and are extra hot in one region, and super cold in another. Does mean global warming is occuring? Could a overall warmer temp make more unstable weather patterns? Of course.

I don't know if I believe man is to blame for the global warming, but I am against polluting the air, seas, and land, in any case. I don't think the US should bow to any policys from the outside however. We should be changing our ways to a greener manner for our own good, not becuase france says we be shorting out the ozone layer. If other countries make their goods cheaper but don't do any poluttion control, then we should levy fees and tariffs on their products, so they stay at a competitive price with our own home-produced goods.

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Right now for a local weather change, we've had several freezes overnight in florida, but overall it's been way warmer than a normal winter! To me it's not that it's overall colder, or warmer but that it's more unstable.

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Very True.
The Global warming is basically just that. All its going to do is make the weather more intense and more unstable. Which is bad, remember the hurricanes, that will be child's play in the future with the rate we are going.

Personally, I'm more in favor of this set of beliefs:

http://goantigreen.com/page/2/

Remember people, for every 5 subscribers, they'll pour a bottle of bleach on a tree!

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

Personally, I'm more in favor of this set of beliefs:

http://goantigreen.com/page/2/

Remember people, for every 5 subscribers, they'll pour a bottle of bleach on a tree!

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LOL, Idk, that looks too expensive. Rip out your insulation so your AC will run harder, and keep your Christmas lights on all year.:rolleye2::taz:

It's a huge joke anyway, or should I say hoax?

Yeah dudes, haven't you heard?? There's no such thing as global warming. It's all a big ruse started by a bunch of fern-fondling, crystal-licking greenies. Obviously.

I just love it when people with no clue pretend to be smart.


~Kat

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Yeah dudes, haven't you heard?? There's no such thing as global warming. It's all a big ruse started by a bunch of fern-fondling, crystal-licking greenies. Obviously.

I just love it when people with no clue pretend to be smart.


~Kat

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wow look at all the graphs i linked to then come back with it.

http://www.globalwarminghoax.com/news.php

Theres always a jerk that likes to think they know it all:rofl:

Guys keep in mind that the earth will only rise a few degrees fahrenheit in the next 100 years or so; it will barely be noticeable.

However, there are higher carbon emissions, and with a growing population on earth, they will keep rising. It's not going to stop at a few degrees.

It's not just about the temperatures either; wetter areas will get wetter and drier areas will get drier. The sea will rise. Ecosystems will get polluted.

Whether humans are causing global warming or not, they're definitely adding to it. Of course the earth has fluctuated in its temperatures, but it's not just the temps that are going up, it's a significant increase of greenhouse gases.

The media is getting into this trying to scare people, yes, some of the main supporters are not scientists. But like it or not, the earth's temperature is rising.

I think it's funny that we as humans entertain ourselves with the idea that we have some minute understanding of how this world works. The only parts we've figured out is what we've screwed up.

Totally off-topic: A herd of cows produces more methane in one year than humans do with our noxious fumes! Go cows!:cow::cow::cow::cow::cow:

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Totally off-topic: A herd of cows produces more methane in one year than humans do with our noxious fumes! Go cows!:cow::cow::cow::cow::cow:

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Didn't you hear? They're proposing taxing farmers a lot more now for every cow they own. Not kidding...

Here ya go:
http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...230165231.aspx

I'm ambivalent to global warming - but I do actively practice conservation and green living just because I think it's the right thing to do whether the earth is warming or not.

But stories like the above is what PISSES ME OFF and puts me on the anti side of these global warming issues!

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Originally Posted by Melicious

Totally off-topic: A herd of cows produces more methane in one year than humans do with our noxious fumes! Go cows!:cow::cow::cow::cow::cow:

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???

How many cows in a herd? How many humans are you comparing to this imaginary herd? Is it a one to one basis?

You are aware that the large the vat the greater the quantity of methane produced, right? It seems to me that bovine digestion, what with the cud chewing, the four stomachs, the diet being mostly non-animal in nature and the simple tonnage involved might have something to do with the amount of methane produced but, since I have NO clue exactly what you are referring to, I must simply say, huh?

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Originally Posted by anatess

Didn't you hear? They're proposing taxing farmers a lot more now for every cow they own. Not kidding...

Here ya go:
http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...230165231.aspx

I'm ambivalent to global warming - but I do actively practice conservation and green living just because I think it's the right thing to do whether the earth is warming or not.

But stories like the above is what PISSES ME OFF and puts me on the anti side of these global warming issues!

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i agree there goes milk prices up another 2$ a gallon

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Originally Posted by anatess

Didn't you hear? They're proposing taxing farmers a lot more now for every cow they own. Not kidding...

Here ya go:
http://www.businessandmedia.org/arti...230165231.aspx

I'm ambivalent to global warming - but I do actively practice conservation and green living just because I think it's the right thing to do whether the earth is warming or not.

But stories like the above is what PISSES ME OFF and puts me on the anti side of these global warming issues!

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ANPR Advanced NOTICE of Proposed Rules

It's sort of like the guys coming out and putting paint marks on the street where a stop sign might someday in the future be placed.

It is not a guarantee. It is merely advanced notice of something that may or may not happen.

Here's another.

The world may or may not end tomorrow.

There's your advance notice on that possibility too.

I heard Monday on National Public Radio that the German Government has officially asked Germans to reduce their consumption of meat. They said that the average German's diet consists of 39% meat and the average Italian diet consists of 24% meat. The keeping of livestock to feed the Germans was creating too much methane gas in the form of farts. They wanted the German people to emulate the eating habits of the Italians. I had to wonder if I was listening to a Saturday Night Live skit or something but it was real.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

ANPR Advanced NOTICE of Proposed Rules

It's sort of like the guys coming out and putting paint marks on the street where a stop sign might someday in the future be placed.

It is not a guarantee. It is merely advanced notice of something that may or may not happen.

Here's another.

The world may or may not end tomorrow.

There's your advance notice on that possibility too.

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Completely different. The advanced notice of the possibility of the world ending tomorrow does not give Congress cause to potentially destroy an American Industry. Amen.

Might be time to take a deep breath and check if intelligence is getting overrun by emotion...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...58/ai_82554146

This is interesting too. http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/methane.htm

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Originally Posted by anatess

Completely different. The advanced notice of the possibility of the world ending tomorrow does not give Congress cause to potentially destroy an American Industry. Amen.

Might be time to take a deep breath and check if intelligence is getting overrun by emotion...

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they have destroyed industry for less

The government is not known for warning that they are looking into taxing something and then saying "Aww.. no. We decided not to tax it after all."
There's also a way to harness cow poo and make your own energy. Green energy if you're already keeping cows. Then since you're burning the methane, you don't "emit" methane as a industry, and you also get free power.

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

I heard Monday on National Public Radio that the German Government has officially asked Germans to reduce their consumption of meat. They said that the average German's diet consists of 39% meat and the average Italian diet consists of 24% meat. The keeping of livestock to feed the Germans was creating too much methane gas in the form of farts. They wanted the German people to emulate the eating habits of the Italians. I had to wonder if I was listening to a Saturday Night Live skit or something but it was real.

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That's too funny. Especially cause you know those politicians aren't going to.

Does it matter what governments like Germany's are doing? At least they're doing something to try to reduce greenhouse gas emissions!

Make fun of it all you want, these people are trying to make a change and everyone should be doing it. Even if you don't believe in global warming; it definitely won't do earth any harm.

Is it really that hard to go to the grocery every (other) week instead of whenever you need to? Or to buy nalgene or camelbak water bottles instead of the entire pallets of plastic bottles?

I think we should do as much as possible to reduce global warming, as we all love herps here and frogs are going extinct and endangered all over the world.

Thanks for reading,

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

wow look at all the graphs i linked to then come back with it.

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Wow. I love that you assumed I was after you. Head swell much? What 'field' is that you are in again??


~Kat

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Wow. I love that you assumed I was after you. Head swell much? What 'field' is that you are in again??


~Kat

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What does that have anything to do with this topic?

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Wow. I love that you assumed I was after you. Head swell much? What 'field' is that you are in again??


~Kat

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i am a marine biologist that is currently working on a study that is looking at the human impacts on the indian river lagoon system in florida. this study takes all types of samples into consideration including temperature. there is a wealth of historical data showing that lagonal temps are on the rise and that algeas are inceasing in number choking out sea grasses which are important nurisery habitats for many comerical speices. we are looking at sea grass populations to analyize their densities, what grows on them and around them, and what animals are assoicated with the sea grass in terms of reducing epiphyte load.

i worked at another lab for the past 2.5 years doing similar work only looking at power plant effects on the surround habitats. i worked at 3 different plants as part of EPA mandated studies to analyize the effects of the thermal plume generated by the plant, as well as, the die off associated with the intake of water from the surrounding water ways for cooling the plant. i also was part of a study that looked at possible effects of taking water from the manatee, braden, and peace rivers for human comsumption. this project was to show the habitat shift associated with the taking of the fresh water. i also was part of a study that showed the northward migration of the upside jellyfish (Cassiopeia) in florida. during my time at this lab (mote marine if you must know...they still have me on their site as a staff member) i helped identify a juvenile florida stony lobster which are also possibly making a northward migration. eveidence is poor on this one but it may be happening.

now that you have seen my resume, what do you do again?

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Does it matter what governments like Germany's are doing? At least they're doing something to try to reduce greenhouse gas emissions!

Make fun of it all you want, these people are trying to make a change and everyone should be doing it. Even if you don't believe in global warming; it definitely won't do earth any harm.

Is it really that hard to go to the grocery every (other) week instead of whenever you need to? Or to buy nalgene or camelbak water bottles instead of the entire pallets of plastic bottles?

I think we should do as much as possible to reduce global warming, as we all love herps here and frogs are going extinct and endangered all over the world.

Thanks for reading,

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Hi Mat, we are not making fun of Germany. We are trying to put forth an example out there of a government that we try not to have in the US. Yes, Germany is trying to live green or practice conservation or what have you... but you shouldn't have a government that IMPOSES it on the population. We can achieve the same results with education while keeping the freedom of the people to choose for themselves how to apply these principles.

See, the problem is, if you give government that kind of mandate, they can then use that same mandate to put themselves in a position of more power until finally, the population become devoid of independent thought. It is already happening in America. Britain is already deep in it and you know how they are struggling now. A good illustration of this is the lightbulb. It is considered bad for the environment for some reason that I haven't figured out the truth of why quite yet. They want it replaced by flourescent. But another faction out there is saying flourescent has its own problems that causes health issues as well... So, if I'm a FREE independent citizen, I HAVE THE LUXURY of researching all these issues of the incandescent versus flourescent lightbulb and then deciding for myself what I feel is the appropriate choice for my dwelling. But, if you have a government that mandates, YOU MUST USE FLOURESCENT, then that freedom of choice is removed from my hands. Now, we all know government - of any shape, size, or form - is never perfect and is always open to corruption. Let's say, Big-Shot Neon Lightbulb Company, is owned by this guy who is buddies with some people in Congress. So then, Big-Shot forms a lobby, puts enough big money to pay somebody's re-election campaign, and somehow manages to extract promises from enough people in Congress to support his Neon lightbulb. All of a sudden, Congressman Smith launches a campaign for Neon lightbulbs, all the people (now devoid of independent thought) jumps up and down over P. Diddy's new Neon rap song, and BAMM. New Law: YOU MUST USE NEON.

That, Matt, is the danger of having a government tell me when I can go to the grocery. Now, if YOU, as a concerned citizen, would encourage me to go to the grocery less often, or avoid buying truckloads of plastic bottles, then by all means, let's talk and educate me on the benefits. Just keep the government out of it.

Hi,

I'd be offended by that if I was capable of independant thought. :rolleyes:

Just an FYI;

The "problem" associated with standard incandecent lightbulbs is their inefficiency when compared to the light output and energy requirements of flourecents.

The "problems" associated with flourecents are the fact they contain hazardous materials and connot legally be disposed of through our current household refuse collection service ( which nobody told us) , emit the wrong kind of light thus causing partially sighted people more problems than incandecents (which nobody apparently knew ) and cost over five times as much to purchase (which nobody earning £60,000+ as a politician gives a damn about ).

We can still buy incandecents in the stores though some are beginning to phase out 100 watt bulbs. There is a large amount of discussion and investigation going on about the issue so it is by no means clear that the proposed ban will ever take place. I tend to think it would be a serious mistake if it were to take place.

The problems with the money and elections isn't really as big an issue over here as all election funding is heavily scruitinized and there is a system of parity imposed to prevent the budgets giving too much of an advantage to any side. You cannot buy more newspaper adverts or television time than your opponents for example.

We also have strict rules preventing anyone from changing the law to help their supporters for money - there is currently an investigation going on about several members of the house of lords (our second chamber ) who are accused of doing precisely that. As you say corruption is sadly universal.

I am also sad to say your government controls your grocery shopping just as firmly as mine - they may not be as blatant about it or tell you anything about it but a simple search on banned food additives or chemicals should show you what they prevent any retailers from offering.


dr del