Genetic "flaws" associated with various morphs?

So since I've been bit by the snake bug, I've been trying to plan what to get for my next snake or two..

I'm a little curious about some of the oddities encountered with some morphs, and what ones might look pretty but I might just want to stay away from, for now at least.

So I've read about spiders and spider combos, and the spinning that they do. Does this weird anyone out the way it weirds me out? Is there anyone here who doesn't keep spiders because of it? Also, what is the deal with no super spiders, do the super spider eggs go bad? Is the spider gene fatal when homozygous?

Also I've heard about "failure to thrive" for super womas(pearls? right?). Anyone want to speak more on this?

I also encountered someone mentioning funny shaped heads in super cinnamons.. what's this about?

If there's anything else I should know about specific morphs and possible problems or oddities associated with them, I'd love for someone to tell me!

Thanks!

super cinnamons and silver bullets have a risk for "duck bill" and spinal problams there are a few others prone to that

Super cinnies and super blacks have the "platypus" head, personally does not bother me.

Pieds can have a lower feed response.

Spiders (and combos) spin. Supposedly there are no super spiders... no opinion on that. Would take breeding every spider from spider to spider breedings to know. I just take the consensus on that way (too interested in spidey combos to bother trying).

Caramels kink.

Pearls supposedly do not survive and do survive. I would aim for one myself. They are amazing.

Just depends on what you are comfortable with.

For me the only one on the list I won't touch are caramels. Just heard too many whispers regarding the genetics to want to deal with having to decide who is going in the freezer and who isn't.

Bruce

does any one know the odds for a super cinnie to have kinks or duck billing?

With spiders there is a wobble and there is spinning. Spinning being an extreme and a wobble sometimes un noticeable. I have 9 spiders and have never witnessed any spinning.

The reason there's is no super spider is because it is Dominate. Only co doms produce a super. Don't let some little things weird you out Spiders are great.

Super spiders... my bad, I should have said homozygous spiders (which if not fatal should exist).

bruce

by super spider, I mean "homozygous spider".

The pinstripe is a dominant gene, and there are "super pinstripes", meaning homozygous pinstripes that when bred to a normal BP will throw 100% heterozygous pinstripe babies.

bruce your post totally ninja'd mine!

I have an adult, subadult, and 2 hatchling spiders and I have never saw a spin or wobble.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

bruce your post totally ninja'd mine!

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Is that ice? HI-YA!!!

(do ninjas break ice?).

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

by super spider, I mean "homozygous spider".

The pinstripe is a dominant gene, and there are "super pinstripes", meaning homozygous pinstripes that when bred to a normal BP will throw 100% heterozygous pinstripe babies.

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That is not entirely proven yet. Brian claims to own one "super pinstripe" that produces all pins. Would be nice but I'm not totally convinced yet.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Is there anyone here who doesn't keep spiders because of it?

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Me. The original was twisted in the cranium, and so are all the following generations. I actually really like Spiders, but won't keep one due to the spin factor. I know a lot of people keep Spiders that spin, and love them, and I know that a lot of people say THEIR Spider doesn't spin, and I have no choice but to believe them. Still I won't have Spiders or Spider combos. My hobby, my choice.

Caramel Albinos? Only if they are kink free, the rest should go in the frezeer unless you are never going to offer them for sale.

I won't keep Black Pastels and Cinnys with the duck bill. In my opinion, the duckbill is a deformity, not a mutation like color.

Pieds that don't like to eat....I'll prolly take that risk when the time comes.

Even normals can have flaws. I had an extremely dark male normal that had been abused. His tail looked like someone came at him with a meat tenderizer. It was so bad I had to give him a bath so he could poop. He died from a stroke because of the abuse but he was an amazing snake.
Carmels are a morph I would stay away from even though they have varing degrees of kinking. I have heard that a good portion kink behind the head and in the neck.

Look at the family tree of the snake before you buy, the more inbreeding the more gentic problems. Most morphs were created by breeding the orginal with its offspring but if a breeder is keeping the pool small and shallow don't buy.

Don't buy from BHB. I have seen and heard way to many problems with this company. They are like the Walmart of BP breeders and I personally would never buy from them. Ralph Davis, LLLReptile, and Mike Wilbanks/Bob Clark are all very good breeders. Ralph only does phone orders which shows he really does care about his animals. Don't Buy from Petco or Petsmart they get their stock from Rainbow Exotics and other Bad Breeders that often have bad breeding and caring conditions and practices.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

Super spiders... my bad, I should have said homozygous spiders (which if not fatal should exist).

bruce

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Bruce,
I am just curious, but why should a Homozygous Spider exist if not fatal? The reason I ask, is I only know of 3 or 4 breedings that were attempted, and never really heard any of the results from those breedings. I have heard from a pretty r4eliable source that somone has a Spider that has produced in the neighborhood of 80 offspring, with no Normals. Is it true, I don't know, but only time will tell. I myself think that it is still possibly a true dominant mutation (meaning the Heterozygous and Homozygous are identical in appearance), but not enough people have tried the breeding. Reason being, many were turned off, by what else can be made with their female Spiders, and the rest turned off by the fact that it would take many breedings of the offspring (that were well documented) to prove it either way.

Just my 2 cents, but I still believe there may be a shadow of doubt,

By the way,
I do have Spiders. Some spin some don't , but I love them all the same. I also have Caramels, and think they are too amazing looking as adults to risk never having the gene at all. I also have a Woma, and intend to shoot for Pearls, and also am breeding for Super Cinny's this year. I guess what I am trying to say is that I like to gamble a little, and will take my chances that I have to euthanize a few animals in the process of creating some beautiful animals.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

I guess what I am trying to say is that I like to gamble a little, and will take my chances that I have to euthanize a few animals in the process of creating some beautiful animals.

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This, I respect very much:gj:

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Originally Posted by shimmer

Don't buy from BHB. I have seen and heard way to many problems with this company. They are like the Walmart of BP breeders and I personally would never buy from them.

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This, I don't respect so much. If you had a bad experience with BHB, I hope you tried to work it out with Brian. I understand it's your opinion, and you are welcome to it, but I don't think you'll get much traction on this Forum calling BHB the Wal-Mart of BP breeders. The man has some amazing projects, and takes care of his animals.

Not to mention that trashing breeders is not what this thread is about.

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Originally Posted by muddoc

Bruce,
I am just curious, but why should a Homozygous Spider exist if not fatal? ...
Just my 2 cents, but I still believe there may be a shadow of doubt,

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I said that " if not fatal should exist"... in that if it is not fatal, then they should exist. So if even one exists, then that invalidates the theory that homozygous are fatal.

Personally I never bought that it was fatal, but I do not have enough experience with them to know (just got my first two spider girls this year).

It does not make sense to me that it could not exist in a homozygous form, but again, I have never bred spiders to know that for sure.

Bruce

PS: Did that make sense?

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Originally Posted by shimmer

Don't buy from BHB. I have seen and heard way to many problems with this company. They are like the Walmart of BP breeders and I personally would never buy from them. Ralph Davis, LLLReptile, and Mike Wilbanks/Bob Clark are all very good breeders. Ralph only does phone orders which shows he really does care about his animals.

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What an idiotic comment. You talk bad about BHB but recommend going with LLLReptile. Is LLL reptile even a breeder? I was always under the impression that they are a wholesaler. Since you mentioned it, what are some of the problems YOU have seen with BHB? I am honestly curious what kind of issues you have had with them.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

What an idiotic comment. You talk bad about BHB but recommend going with LLLReptile. Is LLL reptile even a breeder? I was always under the impression that they are a wholesaler. Since you mentioned it, what are some of the problems YOU have seen with BHB? I am honestly curious what kind of issues you have had with them.

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^^^

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Originally Posted by shimmer

Don't buy from BHB. I have seen and heard way to many problems with this company. They are like the Walmart of BP breeders and I personally would never buy from them. Ralph Davis, LLLReptile, and Mike Wilbanks/Bob Clark are all very good breeders. Ralph only does phone orders which shows he really does care about his animals. Don't Buy from Petco or Petsmart they get their stock from Rainbow Exotics and other Bad Breeders that often have bad breeding and caring conditions and practices.

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If you have had a transaction with Brian that wasn't resolved to your satisfaction, feel free to share that with others in our feedback section. But this thread is not the place to make unsubstantiated claims of "problems" with them based on what you've "heard".

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

Is that ice? HI-YA!!!

(do ninjas break ice?).

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:rofl:

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Originally Posted by shimmer

Don't buy from BHB. I have seen and heard way to many problems with this company. They are like the Walmart of BP breeders and I personally would never buy from them.

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I disagree!! I have never bought from BHB, but would in a hearbeat.

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Originally Posted by shimmer

LLLReptile, and Mike Wilbanks/Bob Clark are all very good breeders.

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I have heard the complete opposite from many other people. Personally, I would not buy from any of the above.

LLL is a broker. they have ads on kingsnake all the time saying we will buy your offspring. they don't breed in the least. Ive herd many bad things about Clark, just check the BOI on fauna. and i wouldn't hessitate to buy from BHB!

now back to what the actual thread was about....ive herd about all the defects assocaited with the morphs. but come on! does it get better than bees?!?!? i mean any of them?!?! they are really stunning animals and if i have to have a wobbily spider to get some then so be it! from what i herd, the wobbles for the most part don't affect the animal too much.

carmels and kinks.....i'd still shoot for them! i love this morph and hopefully, one day get into it. Im suprised you don't see more combos with this morph!

and i love the super cinnys and hope to one day have those. i too like to gamble only i disagree stongly with euthinizing an animal that can live even if it is defected. just because the animal isn't going to make you money (and in this case this is what it boils down to) by being a breeder doesn't mean you should kill it. as a breeder it is your responsibility to care for this animal! ralph davis does it! and i saw a you tube video of a guy (not sure but it might be davis) who had several kinked carmels that he kept because they eat and poop and shed fine but he doesn't breed them. don't forget that we are supposed to be breeding because we love these animals and if you are doing it for the money, then get another hobby! i HIGHLY disagree with putting an animal down if it can't be a breeder. now if the animal is too deformed to go through life properly.....like it can't eat or is prone to infections ect. then maybe something should be done.

just my .02 cents on something that really bothers me!!

I recently bought 17 ball pythons from Brian and I couldn't be happier with them. And for the record I live in Sweden and the shipping went perfect as well, can't see what the problems with Brian would be. In my world Brian is a stand up guy who is VERY service minded, grade A purchase from beginning to end. I would recommend him to anyone.

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Originally Posted by shimmer

Don't buy from BHB. I have seen and heard way to many problems with this company. They are like the Walmart of BP breeders and I personally would never buy from them. Ralph Davis, LLLReptile, and Mike Wilbanks/Bob Clark are all very good breeders. Ralph only does phone orders which shows he really does care about his animals. Don't Buy from Petco or Petsmart they get their stock from Rainbow Exotics and other Bad Breeders that often have bad breeding and caring conditions and practices.

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This is full of stupidity. I have never dealt with BHB personally but I have never heard any thing but good about him. I would buy from BHB in a heart beat.

Ralph Davis is the only other breeder I have heard extensively about and I would buy from Ralph just as fast as BHB.

I am currently dealing with Adam Wysocki over at 8ball. He has stated that ALL spiders wobble. He made this comment some time ago I do not know if this is how he still feels.

I would never buy from petsmart or petco. I know that petsmart sells CH BPs. I would not want to buy a CH or WC simply because there are plenty to buy that are CB. I think as a whole we should try to preserve the native species and try to only buy CB if at all possible. I do know that to some extent we do need WC in our hobby to introduce new morphs.

I personally have heard nothing about the duck bill problem with some of the morphs this is most likely due to my ignorance. If some one could help me understand this I would be grateful.

As far as the kinks in the caramels I would like to work with them due to their potential but I do not want to have to risk throwing an animal in the freezer I would not like to keep an animal that is kinked it would be taking up space that I would need for useful breeding animals. I would have one to just keep and enjoy but I do not think I would want to breed them.

I would be willing to work with a good line of spiders. I will be buying spiders in the future to produce some of the great morph that require them. I also think that spiders are beautiful on their own and would like to produce them.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

I said that " if not fatal should exist"... in that if it is not fatal, then they should exist. So if even one exists, then that invalidates the theory that homozygous are fatal.

Personally I never bought that it was fatal, but I do not have enough experience with them to know (just got my first two spider girls this year).

It does not make sense to me that it could not exist in a homozygous form, but again, I have never bred spiders to know that for sure.

Bruce

PS: Did that make sense?

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Bruce,
Made perfect sense. I was just thinking you may have some info that I didn't know about. I am always on the quest for as much knowledge as I can soak up.

Thanks for the reply,

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

It does not make sense to me that it could not exist in a homozygous form, but again, I have never bred spiders to know that for sure.

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Slightly tangential. There are traits that are stable as heterozygous form but lethal as homozygous form. The Jaguar morph of carpet pythons is one of these. The jag phenotype is a result of the heterozygous condition. A homozygous jag is very much a dead animal.

My spider "spins". The behavior or defect is only noticeable if she is climbing up something. It almost seems like she has a loss of balance. While climbing she will start going up (say up my arm) then as she gets to a vertical surface her head will go back words and she usually turns to go another direction. It doesn't affect her in any way so I have not worried about it. I would only caution that if you have a spider with balance/climbing issues to keep a close eye and good grip on it when its being handled to prevent a fall.

well if you guys would quit feeding the spiders burbon soaked feeders they'd be fine! its just a myth on that being a trick to getting them to eat! :D

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

i too like to gamble only i disagree stongly with euthinizing an animal that can live even if it is defected. just because the animal isn't going to make you money (and in this case this is what it boils down to) by being a breeder doesn't mean you should kill it. as a breeder it is your responsibility to care for this animal! ralph davis does it! and i saw a you tube video of a guy (not sure but it might be davis) who had several kinked carmels that he kept because they eat and poop and shed fine but he doesn't breed them. don't forget that we are supposed to be breeding because we love these animals and if you are doing it for the money, then get another hobby! i HIGHLY disagree with putting an animal down if it can't be a breeder.

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Interesting take on things. Are you really saying that as a breeder, one who is NOT in it for the money (HA), that you feel no responsibility to better the breed by culling those with obvious defects?

If you actually LISTEN to ralphs video with the caramels he never says he WON'T breed them. Which means he might which means he probably has.

And phthbbbtt to you and your condemning anyone who breeds just for money. Who the bloody hell are YOU to tell anyone what to do? Don't your very heros sell reptiles for money? LLL, broker and NOT a breeder and KNOWN to sell crap disguised as snakes.

BHB is the model all of you should be emulating, especially those of you, like this guy I quoted, who don't know spit from shinola.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Interesting take on things. Are you really saying that as a breeder, one who is NOT in it for the money (HA), that you feel no responsibility to better the breed by culling those with obvious defects?

If you actually LISTEN to ralphs video with the caramels he never says he WON'T breed them. Which means he might which means he probably has.

And phthbbbtt to you and your condemning anyone who breeds just for money. Who the bloody hell are YOU to tell anyone what to do? Don't your very heros sell reptiles for money? LLL, broker and NOT a breeder and KNOWN to sell crap disguised as snakes.

BHB is the model all of you should be emulating, especially those of you, like this guy I quoted, who don't know spit from shinola.

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Ahhh paraphrasing in that last statement, I see! ;) But I happen to agree with you.:)

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

i too like to gamble only i disagree stongly with euthinizing an animal that can live even if it is defected. just because the animal isn't going to make you money (and in this case this is what it boils down to) by being a breeder doesn't mean you should kill it. as a breeder it is your responsibility to care for this animal! ralph davis does it!

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Do you honestly believe that Ralph Davis keeps and takes care of all of the deformed animals that he produces?

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Do you honestly believe that Ralph Davis keeps and takes care of all of the deformed animals that he produces?

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Well, there are the kinked caramels. But I too seriously doubt he keeps the less expensive morphs that hatch deformed.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Interesting take on things. Are you really saying that as a breeder, one who is NOT in it for the money (HA), that you feel no responsibility to better the breed by culling those with obvious defects?

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I see where you are coming from with this. these lines need to be cleaned up a bit so to speak. there are carmels out there without kinks and spiders that don't show spinning or wobbels as much as others. i feel extra care should go into breeding these morphs to keep these defects from happening. less sibXsib breeding with these.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

If you actually LISTEN to ralphs video with the caramels he never says he WON'T breed them. Which means he might which means he probably has.?

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i don't know ralph personally nor do i speak for him or against him. i was unaware that it was him in the video. but i would think that a breeder as large as ralph woudn't have to breed the defected animals as he probably has many unkinked ones in his collection. i was simply pointing out the fact that a breeder as large as he shows compasion to these animals and doesn't kill them becasue of defects.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And phthbbbtt to you and your condemning anyone who breeds just for money. Who the bloody hell are YOU to tell anyone what to do? Don't your very heros sell reptiles for money? LLL, broker and NOT a breeder and KNOWN to sell crap disguised as snakes.

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im not condemning anyone just stating what i belive on this matter. it is a sore subject with me the way some people just kill animals because and only because they won't make good breeders. in my post you will notice i did say if they will have a hard time living or are prone to issues then something should be done. i am a biologist and value all living things defected or not. heck i even have a hard time killing feeders.

and i never backed LLL in anyway. i only stated that they were a broker.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

BHB is the model all of you should be emulating, especially those of you, like this guy I quoted, who don't know spit from shinola.

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i agree with you fully on this! again i never said a bad word about BHB. not sure if this was directed at me.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Do you honestly believe that Ralph Davis keeps and takes care of all of the deformed animals that he produces?

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on his site he shows a albino with a pretty bad duckbill and it states that it was kept alive. for him this would be a less expensive animal.

again i should state that im in no way defending ralph or anything. im just saying i say the kinked carmel video and a post on his stie about the duckbill albino.

I certainly dont see a need to cull an animal that lives, eats, poops and sheds like the rest of my animals, however I do wonder when these deformities start to hurt the animal, and when it is no longer humane to keep them alive. How could I tell that the animal was in pain?

That's my whole view on it, luckily I have never had to deal with the task of deciding what is best for a deformed or sick animal that can't express it's unease.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

I see where you are coming from with this. these lines need to be cleaned up a bit so to speak. there are carmels out there without kinks and spiders that don't show spinning or wobbels as much as others. i feel extra care should go into breeding these morphs to keep these defects from happening. less sibXsib breeding with these.

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Just as an FYI - rarely does anyone breed spider siblings together - in fact, being classified (thus far) as a dominant trait, it's one of the most out-crossed morphs. To make more spiders, you only need to breed to normals.

Just as a low white pied can throw high white and vice versa, spiders with very minimal wobblers can throw trainwrecks, and trainwrecks can throw low wobblers.

robin-very true. i was more speaking of the carmel albinos than the spiders.

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Originally Posted by Lucas339

on his site he shows a albino with a pretty bad duckbill and it states that it was kept alive. for him this would be a less expensive animal.

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IIRC that was from his "granite" albino female so he may be keeping that cause it is a project animal and may have the "something special" in its genes so that would make it more "important" than a typical albino. Also, IIRC that animal had no eyes.

The clutch was the result of a mother x son clutch so the inbreeding factor might have more to do with those defects than anything directly related to the albino trait. Who knows

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Originally Posted by asplundii

IIRC that was from his "granite" albino female so he may be keeping that cause it is a project animal and may have the "something special" in its genes so that would make it more "important" than a typical albino. Also, IIRC that animal had no eyes.

The clutch was the result of a mother x son clutch so the inbreeding factor might have more to do with those defects than anything directly related to the albino trait. Who knows

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Isn't backstory wonderful?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Isn't backstory wonderful?

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Indeed :)

If anyone is interested here is the link, scroll down to clutch 13:

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/bi.../pythons_2.asp

Wilomn not sure why you have it out for me but whatever. i expressed my views and they obviously aren't shared by you but they are mine none the less. to say "i dont know spit from shinola" (whatever that means) is entirely rude and ignorant on your behalf just because my veiw differs from yours. if you have issues with me directly, then contact me directly. i would give you that same respect.

Wes is always out to make the bestest of friends. :wuv:

seems as such

so do super cinnys always have that concave shape to the face, or do some have "normal" looking heads?

Does it just look different, or is it something that causes issues for them?

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

so do super cinnys always have that concave shape to the face, or do some have "normal" looking heads?

Does it just look different, or is it something that causes issues for them?

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That is a good question.
A theory of at least one major breeder is that there is no defect. The appearance is caused by an optical illusion thanks to the colour of the animal's head. Makes the jaw-line look extra narrow and the snout to appear widened.
That is the opinion of a major breeder that I would bet has atleast a few specimens in his collection.
-Steven

As far as spiders go, IDK, but I am the kind of person who's willing to prove it himself if plausable. Chances are I'll take a chance at the spider game in the next couple years. Besides the idea of breeding a Super Spider to a Super Pastel and get an entire clutch of Bees sounds very enticing...

Where did Shimmer go?

I have never bought an animal from BHB, but I have talked to him at Daytona this year and last year, that man has the passion and loves these animals.

We have 4 adult spiders and 2 juvy bees, and have produced about 20 spiders. I have never seen one spin, but I have seen some wobble at feeding time.

This year we bred het caramel m to a ph caramel f, all the same line, but different sires and dams, 6 eggs, 5 possible hets and 1 kinked caramel male.
That male will never be bred, we have bought another male from a different line and will attempt breeding him this year to our females, update in a few months.

Rich