I am not a believer -do you think you can convert me?

Okay, I write this post with respect and a willingness to learn. However, I am having a hard time believing the following "recycled" statements (both of which I happen to abide by):

1. Ball pythons need to have two identical hides. One on the cool side and one on the hot side. This is because if they prefer one over the other they will not thermoregulate properly. They will choose security over their own well being.

2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

I would argue against these two theories based on the life of ball pythons in their natural environments. Having said that, I understand there are things you would not allow to happen with captive animals that happen in the wild.

For instance, I understand that many feed f/t because of the fear of rodents biting the snake. In this case, the naturalist would argue that if they eat live in the wild they should be able to do the same in captivity? In theory, this is true. Snakes in the wild feed live and probably get bitten. The difference is, in the wild the snake dies and balance is maintained. However, in captivity the owner is out anywhere from 100-20,000 dollars! So, in that case I could see how the natural environment theory would not hold any water.

Nevertheless, I do not know if there is evidence or a good theory that could suggest that BP's in the wild are dying/living shorter lives because they could not find an identical burrow to hide in or that they will not eat anymore because they left their 3 - 4.5 square foot territory.

I am open to some new, out of the box, non recycled theories that would support the aforementioned statements (the hides, enclosure size and even the live vs. f/t statements).

I understand this post is long but I feel it could spark new knowledge about the hobby we all love so much.

Peace out,

Jimmy

Essentially, ball pythons live in rodent burrows for the majority of their lives. The rarely move to eat, as they are ambush predators. They rarely move at all in general. Some ball python owners choose to feed F/T or P/K because they just simply don't feel like taking the risk of a bite. Bites can be avoided while feeding live by simply sticking a cue-tip or chopstick into the mouse, or rats mouth. As for the hides, I use two different hides for some of my snakes and they use both. They seem to not care. Other snakes are different indeed. Though they are pretty domesticated and seem to be pretty stress free because they are used to me.
Did I miss anything? lol

I can understand the theory of identical hides, and think this may benefit the environment and snakes comfort in some cases. In my six cages no two, or more in some cases are alike. My BP in specific has two on opposite ends, three during shed time. If he is the shed process, he never leaves the hide until he sheds. As far as the other two hides go, he moves freely between both, as my other snakes move from hide to hide. The BP spends some time each day in each hide. If he did not, I would try two identical hides.

When I first started keeping snakes, the members of the herp society and and the Dr. Of biology all fed live. I purchased mice from my neighbor who fed all her snakes live as well. I never left a mouse unatended, and no snake was ever bitten. The benefits known with using f/t has caused me to only use f/t. 4 of my six snakes do not even wrap, if the even bite. Many will crawl up and eat. The one snake who has been on f/t wraps, but if the prey were alive, the place he strikes and the way he holds the prey would surely lead to a bite. My BP before I switched him, always struck and wrapped giving the mouse no opportunity to hurt him. So based on my observations, once a snake has regularly eaten f/t to switch back could cause the snake a harmful bite or scratch.

I believe the idea of keeping a snake in captivity in a smaller space with identicle hides is for his comfort, seeing that he is not in a natural setting. We pick our snakes up to handle or clean, and the snake realizes he is not immune to being picked up. For this reason it is important to make him feel as safe as possible. If he only feels safe in one hide, thermoregulation goes out the door. In this case two identical hides may help with a secure feeling and thermoregulation.

In the wild they live shorter lifes because of diseases, lack of food, road kill, and predators. These factors can all be controlled in captivity. Personally speaking IMO a large enclosure with plenty of hiding spots and temperature zones, a snake might do very well no matter how big his living area is, as long as his requirements are met.

Interesting discussion points.

There is fault to your statement. In the wild ball pythons can FET away from a prey item that is harmful when a snake in an enclosure can't. That is why some people don't feed live, but I know alot of people that dofeed live.

Hrm, the claim that a Ball will be more likely to be bit when eating f/t regularly seems a bit off in my experience. My adult male has gone extremely long periods of time only eating f/t and I have given him lives and he has had no problem killing them. And yes he will bite in the wrong place with f/t but he hits nicely every time he is offered a live.

I think there is a problem with ANY globalized generalization.
That said, there is also truth within globalized generalizations.

Example: I have 13 ball pythons. I have some in rack systems and some in 3x2x1 cages. There are some of my snakes who will not ever go into a cage given their seeming low level of security. I have 2 snakes who will not handle even a 32qt tub and so they are in 16qt tubs. Yes, one of them is small, but the other is the same size as others who happily inhabit a 32qt tub. When I put her into a bigger space she refuses food and this is a sign of stress.

All the snakes are a little bit different from the other. On this forum, it is wise to put out there the tried and true techniques so that new herpers can have near instant success with their snakes. Once these herpers gain a little experience and learn to read the snake's behaviors, then they go on with their education.

Just my thoughts..... :)

When I hear language such as "recycled" etc. it irks me.

This is not just random info that is being vomitted up for the sake of having something to type, but rather the collective qualitative experiences of myriad people that keep large numbers of BPs and have collections of thriving BPs.

Keep multiple BPs for an extended period, and throw caution to the wind and employ laissez-faire BP keeping and see how well they thrive.

If we were merely recycling info then all those early 80's manuals on BP husbandry would still be in print and not just being handed over when we rescue snakes that are near death.

The majority of these "recycled" guidelines are for new keepers that need a definitive set of rules that will ensure their snakes are well started and thriving. Most of us that promote them, may not even use them. Once you start keeping multiple snakes and you have a system that meets all the requirements, then you can start funking it up all you want while still meeting the snakes' needs.

The problems with people that are new, do not implement specific husbandry requirements, is that they make decisions on what they LIKE/WANT and not what the snake/s NEED.

That is a critical factor.

Stress is cumulative in a BP and without a proper understanding of BP behaviour and environmental needs, stress is often interpretated as "Look! The happy fuzzy lovey snakey wants to be picked up and draped around my shoulders while I shower it with kisses!!!"

I do not implement the newbie guidelines, for my established snakes, but I do implement them to a T when I get a rescued BP, and I know that those recycled guidelines can guarantee that I will get even the most stubborn BP eating again. I have received snakes that had been off feed for close to a year, and they usually eat for me within two weeks.

My established snakes still get all their needs met, but within a minimilistic framework. But I also know how to meet those needs. Where did I learn this? From other more experienced keepers and through trial and error implementation.

My arrogance and desire to give my snakes novel experience has definitely cost them at times, but that was part of the learning experience, that is why I will always admit to those mistakes in the hopes that others can learn from them.

Just my 0.02 dollars.

Bruce

ill say what i do

I have mine in 32qts. One hide. Some none. I feed live.

My temps are 85-88 almost always. Never higher. cool end is 75 or so, depending on the day.

I keep them on cypress mulch, and feed in the tub.


No problems with my methods. :gj:

Bruce really said it beautifully. I can only add a couple of thoughts...

None of the "laws" you have chosen to ask to be converted to are "laws" at all. They are suggestions. Granted, not everyone is as skilled with words (or simply has the desire to put out the effort) to get that fact across, so their suggestions sometimes come across as hard-and-fast rules. But honestly....any thinking person can and should be able to read the caresheets and read the discussion threads and pick out which suggestions they think it smart to follow, and which they think they don't need.

Two identical hides: Of course a ball python can live just fine with two different hides...or three or four....or just one....or even none at all. BUT...if you are new to keeping these creatures and want to be sure to minimize as many different sources of stress or error as possible...then two identical hides is a perfectly logical suggestion. Then you eliminate the question about whether your snake is favoring one hide to the detriment of proper temps or whatever.

Enclosure size: There are some babies that do just fine in larger enclosures. But this OFTEN stresses them out. So, for a beginner who wishes to have as few worries as possible, it's perfectly logical to suggest that they use a smaller enclosure for their snake. As the snake gets older....it becomes more a matter of the keeper's convenience and how much work they want to put into maintaining proper temperatures and humidity in a really large enclosure...not to mention the effort of keeping it clean. So again...it's logical to suggest smaller enclosures, especially for larger collections....as the snakes thrive in them as well.

I could go on and on with the discussion of f/t or live feeding. It all boils down to the keeper making their own choices about what works best for them versus the risks involved.

You don't need to be "converted".....you just need to understand that there is nothing wrong with these things being suggested to someone just starting out who wants to learn to walk before they start running marathons. ;)

I bet if you ask a big breeder what size enclosure for an adult ball he would tell you the minimum size. Why? because look at what most breeders use, rack systems, they maximize their number of balls if they have them in the minimum size container. I am sure you can keep your ball in bigger enclsures and they will thrive just as well.

Is that bad? I don't know, I follow those suggestions, because they work. Breeders big or small will not jeopordize their $$$ collection, so there must be some truth to it.

Could you imagine if the minimum size container for a ball was 4'x4'x1', instead of having 50 to 100 breeder balls they would have 10 to 20.

I have also noticed that alot of breeders only use 1 hide, and some dont even have 1, so does it make a difference in the number of hides? i guess if you feel your ball is stressed and not feeding add hides and see if that works.

I personally use 2 hides, and even have a hide for my retics, even though retic keepers dont usually use them.

Like it was stated they are just sugestions, and variations there of should not make a big difference if any.

I dont have anything against breeders and the number of balls they have, the reason I used them as an example is because they have thousands of dollars invested in them and it would be silly for them to risk the life of a high end ball to save space.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

When I hear language such as "recycled" etc. it irks me.

This is not just random info that is being vomitted up for the sake of having something to type, but rather the collective qualitative experiences of myriad people that keep large numbers of BPs and have collections of thriving BPs.

Keep multiple BPs for an extended period, and throw caution to the wind and employ laissez-faire BP keeping and see how well they thrive.

If we were merely recycling info then all those early 80's manuals on BP husbandry would still be in print and not just being handed over when we rescue snakes that are near death.

The majority of these "recycled" guidelines are for new keepers that need a definitive set of rules that will ensure their snakes are well started and thriving. Most of us that promote them, may not even use them. Once you start keeping multiple snakes and you have a system that meets all the requirements, then you can start funking it up all you want while still meeting the snakes' needs.

The problems with people that are new, do not implement specific husbandry requirements, is that they make decisions on what they LIKE/WANT and not what the snake/s NEED.

That is a critical factor.

Stress is cumulative in a BP and without a proper understanding of BP behaviour and environmental needs, stress is often interpretated as "Look! The happy fuzzy lovey snakey wants to be picked up and draped around my shoulders while I shower it with kisses!!!"

I do not implement the newbie guidelines, for my established snakes, but I do implement them to a T when I get a rescued BP, and I know that those recycled guidelines can guarantee that I will get even the most stubborn BP eating again. I have received snakes that had been off feed for close to a year, and they usually eat for me within two weeks.

My established snakes still get all their needs met, but within a minimilistic framework. But I also know how to meet those needs. Where did I learn this? From other more experienced keepers and through trial and error implementation.

My arrogance and desire to give my snakes novel experience has definitely cost them at times, but that was part of the learning experience, that is why I will always admit to those mistakes in the hopes that others can learn from them.

Just my 0.02 dollars.

Bruce

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That was fairly well stated. This will work best if it is kept as a discussion. I can fully understand that there may be special rules for rescue situations. I especially like your point about starting out with guidelines at first and then with time, experimenting with changes. That said, I was by no means suggesting a laissez-faire rule.

To clerify my point about recycled information I would like to say that too often, we (and by we I mean mankind as a whole) make the mistake of taking others word as gospel. At the risk of seeming a little corny, I would like to tell a story I hope can clarify my point of view.

One day a woman was cooking a ham. Her daughter who was only 6 years old said, "Mommy, why do you cut the ends off the ham before you put it in the oven"? Her mother replied, "Well, I do it because it is how I learned to do it from your grandmother". The girl pondered her mothers response and went to the living room to see her grandmother. While she was there she said to her grandmother, "Grandma, why do you cut the ends off the ham before you put it in the oven"? Her grandmother replied, "Well, I do it because it is how I learned to do it from your great grandmother". The girl pondered her grandmothers response and went to the dining room to see her great grandmother. While she was there she said to her great grandmother, "Great grandma, why do you cut the ends off the ham before you put it in the oven"? Her great grandmother replied, "Because the ham was always too big for the pan".

My wish is that people could use a little more critical thinking when tackling any new learning experience. Or at the very least, lets have a discussion and look at the possibility that theories are progressive and often change.

Jimmy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

Okay, I write this post with respect and a willingness to learn. However, I am having a hard time believing the following "recycled" statements (both of which I happen to abide by):

1. Ball pythons need to have two identical hides. One on the cool side and one on the hot side. This is because if they prefer one over the other they will not thermoregulate properly. They will choose security over their own well being.

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When I had 2 different hides for my Caspie, she did exactly as you described. She stayed in the one she preferred 24/7. In the wild she'd have a lot more selection in where she wants to be. But in her tub, I am forcing her to thermoregulate using two hides only. Now that I use two identical hides, she alternates between the two hides equally; that is proper thermoregulation.

Quote:

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2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

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Just look at WHERE your snake spends most of his time. Or, just take out a ball python and watch what he does. My own snakes quickly head for the tiniest, darkest places where it's impossible to get them out. I think many owners can attest to this too. That's simply how they feel most comfortable.

Now say you take a horse, and let him out for awhile. He probably won't try and stuff himself into some tiny crevice in the ground; rather he will prefer running about in pasture, grazing; furthermore he will be able to thrive with a social group of other horses.

Thus: Horse gets his pasture, and snake gets his hidey-holes. You wouldn't keep a horse in a tiny cramped cage, and you also shouldn't keep a ball python in a gigantic enclosure!

Quote:

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I would argue against these two theories based on the life of ball pythons in their natural environments. Having said that, I understand there are things you would not allow to happen with captive animals that happen in the wild.

For instance, I understand that many feed f/t because of the fear of rodents biting the snake. In this case, the naturalist would argue that if they eat live in the wild they should be able to do the same in captivity? In theory, this is true. Snakes in the wild feed live and probably get bitten. The difference is, in the wild the snake dies and balance is maintained. However, in captivity the owner is out anywhere from 100-20,000 dollars! So, in that case I could see how the natural environment theory would not hold any water.

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I think you have answered your own question. The snake's not in the wild; he's in an enclosure made by his owner. It is the OWNER'S responsibility to ensure the snake's health and well being. We try to SIMULATE the snake's natural environment, because the snake has evolved over millions of years to that environment, and that environment is where the snake will thrive. However, where the natural environment and the enclosure do not match up is where we have to adjust - see explanation about the two identical hides.

That being said, I feed frozen/thawed mainly because it is convenient to me and most of my snakes will accept it, and it is not any worse for them than live. I have one ball that will only accept live, and I have no issues feeding him live. I don't buy much into the argument that feeding live will cause serious injury to the snake, provided that the feeding is SUPERVISED and the rodent is not left in with the snake for extended periods of time. Like you said, the snake can't flee from the rodent, so we as KEEPERS must provide it with the protection it would gain from fleeing in the wild.

Quote:

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Nevertheless, I do not know if there is evidence or a good theory that could suggest that BP's in the wild are dying/living shorter lives because they could not find an identical burrow to hide in or that they will not eat anymore because they left their 3 - 4.5 square foot territory.

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You will quickly find out that most of the "community accepted" herp husbandry is not based on scientific evidence, but rather what has worked for hobbyists over long periods of time, and what has resulted in the healthiest animals who eat regularly and produce the best offspring. Herp-keeping is in fact the infant of the pet-keeping world.

All the advice I have given, and others have given, is advice we believe to be true and that has worked for our snakes. Like I said above, I am working under the philosophy that I must try and simulate my snakes' natural environment, but adjust my techniques for areas where husbandry and wild differ. But things can change, and there are some things that are not set in stone. I wouldn't go off thinking you can make up your own rules and have your snake thrive on them, but start out by taking advice from those snake-keepers before you and maybe you can build on them in future years as you gain more experience!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Hrm, the claim that a Ball will be more likely to be bit when eating f/t regularly seems a bit off in my experience. My adult male has gone extremely long periods of time only eating f/t and I have given him lives and he has had no problem killing them. And yes he will bite in the wrong place with f/t but he hits nicely every time he is offered a live.

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I could not speak on my BP. Once I switched him to f/t, I have not gone back. When eating live he has always had a good and safe wrap. I have had him less than a year and when he strikes a f/t my BP still has a good wrap. Perhaps because I warm it under a lamp after warming from the freezer on my cage to put off smell. The head is always closet to the light and that is where he strikes. I am glad you have not had a bad incident. My CA king on the other hand strikes it's prey anywhere, often in a manor that would be dangerous. As much as I would like to test this idea with my king and a live prey, the consequnces of a bite are not worth it to me.

Interesting that your BP strike sloppy on f/t and not live. Perhaps because I live mouse would give of more heat from his head?

I think it's because it's moving around more, he misses it from time to time, and it actually does things. Where as when he misses the frozen it's still there, it isn't running I just dangle it for him, and he'll grab its butt or it's side or wherever he lands the strike. He perks up a lot more when going after a live, he watches it and pays close attention to it, then he hits it, almost always on the side of the head/neck area, and then he constricts it. The back legs on the mouse/rat kick, but the rest of it can't move and it's face is never close enough to his body to bite him. He's never hit the back end of a live.

But man is he a lot more active when I feed him live.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

.... To clerify my point about recycled information I would like to say that too often, we (and by we I mean mankind as a whole) make the mistake of taking others word as gospel. At the risk of seeming a little corny, I would like to tell a story I hope can clarify my point of view. ....

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The difference between the information many folks here give out...and the "regurgitated" information in the "ham story" is that almost anyone here can tell you WHY it is suggested that two similar hides be used....or a smaller enclosure....or whatever.

There's nothing wrong with asking "Why???"....but it does bother me that someone (not necessarily you, but we've heard this before) suggests that we don't know what we're talking about just because the same basic guidelines are shared by so many.

Hi,

Just a quick question - have you tried heating the head of the F/T more than the body to see if he keys in on that part?


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Just a quick question - have you tried heating the head of the F/T more than the body to see if he keys in on that part?


dr del

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Great point!

Worked for me. That was the only way my BP will regularly accept f/t

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oxylepy

Hrm, the claim that a Ball will be more likely to be bit when eating f/t regularly seems a bit off in my experience. My adult male has gone extremely long periods of time only eating f/t and I have given him lives and he has had no problem killing them. And yes he will bite in the wrong place with f/t but he hits nicely every time he is offered a live.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Just a quick question - have you tried heating the head of the F/T more than the body to see if he keys in on that part?


dr del

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

To clerify my point about recycled information I would like to say that too often, we (and by we I mean mankind as a whole) make the mistake of taking others word as gospel.

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I think you are seriously underestimating the amount of time, energy and reflexivity that goes into those that keep snakes...

The non-reflexive keepers are the ones that die a loud, fast, and fiery death on snake forums due to their inability to take in new information and evaluate it.

I consider myself to have impeccable husbandry and QT, and I firmly believe that I know enough about BPs to keep them healthy and thriving, but my first snake died from years of improper husbandry.

I got him and the information on how to keep him from someone that was doing everything counter to what was suggested. She just knew what it was he wanted and liked VS. what was considered gospel. I continued that. When I came online and found out it was all "wrong" I was indignant.

Snake was happy, snake was lovely, snake was eager to "play". Well snake died, and this was after I implemented proper husbandry and got him eating and unlearned all this misinformation.

I have no issue with people wanting to question husbandry information, but too often keepers come online and put the oenus (sp?) on US to teach them and convince them without doing their research.

People take the time and energy to "train" new keepers and those recieving the information may continually question it and take issue with it.

Answer those questions hundreds of times, and as Judy noted, you will quickly learn a short-hand method of disseminating information. I figure if someone asks and I give them that information, it is not up to ME to convince them WHY, but rather it is up the them to take that information and compare it to their own research.

THAT is what being a reflexive keeper is about.

Bruce

And yes... I consider this to still be a discussion...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

B
None of the "laws" you have chosen to ask to be converted to are "laws" at all. They are suggestions.

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In my defense :oops: Using " " may imply I said laws. That could get confusing if people are reading all the posts and forget what I actually said. Also, I want to clarify that the thread title I chose was meant to have a playful tone. I am always up for a friendly discussion/debate.

It is amazing how you really cannot tell what a person is feeling when you converse over the internet. For instance, you used a ;) at the end of your post. I am quite sure you were implying that you enjoyed the opportunity to join this discussion. However, at first I was thinking... what, did she just wink at me as if to say nice try buddy, quit being such a jerk. This is why I keep telling my mom and my sister to stop confronting each other over email... lol. I guess that is why it has taken me until I am 27 to use a forum.

Jimmy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

It is amazing how you really cannot tell what a person is feeling when you converse over the internet. For instance, you used a ;) at the end of your post. I am quite sure you were implying that you enjoyed the opportunity to join this discussion. However, at first I was thinking... what, did she just wink at me as if to say nice try buddy, quit being such a jerk. This is why I keep telling my mom and my sister to stop confronting each other over email... lol. I guess that is why it has taken me until I am 27 to use a forum.

Jimmy

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Much truth here....and my little winky face is always meant as a genuine smile and a wink. There are some days when I can type with perfect diplomacy....and other days I'm feeling a bit tired and/or grumpy and words come out more abruptly than I'd like...but I very rarely ever intend to be abrupt or sharp with anyone....and when I intend to, it's usually pretty unmistakable. :P

This IS a good discussion and one I'm not offended by or bothered by and have enjoyed participating in. It's always good to take the time to remind folks reading these threads that there are REASONS why we suggest the things we do...even if those reasons aren't always given every single time.

Okay, perhaps I approached this the wrong way and for that I apologize. I get the impression that I sounded a little arrogant or something. I still want to discuss the main points. Let me reword this:

Title: Looking to expand my skills.

I have often heard people on the internet say:

1. Ball pythons need to have two identical hides. One on the cool side and one on the hot side. This is because if they prefer one over the other they will not thermoregulate properly. They will choose security over their own well being.

2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

Are there other ways to provide a naturalistic enclosure for ball pythons without sacrificing their health or security. If so, what are they. This would be a good thread to debate the pros and cons of the standard method of husbandry and any other options.

Jimmy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

It's always good to take the time to remind folks reading these threads that there are REASONS why we suggest the things we do...even if those reasons aren't always given every single time.

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I think I am the type of person who wishes to learn the why behind the things I am learning. I think it originates from having a mom who always said, "because I said so". It is amazing the effects our parents can have on us. Even years after the fact :rolleye2: lol.

Jimmy

The "accepted" husbandry works. Other husbandry techniques can work, too. But its so easy and inexpensive to set them up with a tried and true method, that especially for a beginner, there should be no reason to have problems from the very beginning. Deviating from those "rules" is fine as long as you can still provide a safe and healthy environment for your animal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by halfwaynowhere

The "accepted" husbandry works. Other husbandry techniques can work, too. But its so easy and inexpensive to set them up with a tried and true method, that especially for a beginner, there should be no reason to have problems from the very beginning. Deviating from those "rules" is fine as long as you can still provide a safe and healthy environment for your animal.

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True. I would also add that beginners could learn a lot from reading discussions such as these. After all, if it were only beginners who used this forum, it would not be doing as well as it is :salute:.

Jimmy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

I consider myself to have impeccable husbandry and QT, and I firmly believe that I know enough about BPs to keep them healthy and thriving, but my first snake died from years of improper husbandry.

I got him and the information on how to keep him from someone that was doing everything counter to what was suggested. She just knew what it was he wanted and liked VS. what was considered gospel. I continued that. When I came online and found out it was all "wrong" I was indignant.

Snake was happy, snake was lovely, snake was eager to "play". Well snake died, and this was after I implemented proper husbandry and got him eating and unlearned all this misinformation.

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I was wondering what it was that you were doing wrong. While the information may be of a sad nature I believe that it is through the mistakes of the past that one can learn the most. When shown what will lead to negative outcomes we may see the severity of bad husbandry.

Its this simple:

There are two major ways to determine a snake's health and stress level: their feeding history and their shed history.

1.) Snakes that are unhealthy do not shed in one piece.
2.) Snakes that are stressed do not eat.

If they are not eating, and/or if they are shedding in patches, there is some flaw in how they are kept (aside from perhaps being handled way too often).

That said, if you have a snake that is shedding good and eating good, you're doing something right and probably don't need to worry about changing anything.

Its a hobby, not a science. What works for some doesn't work for everyone. Just let your snakes tell you if you're keeping them right.

I think this is a good discussion. I learned every aspect of snake husbandry pretty much from this and a couple of other forums. And because I was (& still am) a newbie, I stick to what the veterans tell me to do. As I've acquired more experience, and gotten to know each of my snakes on an individual level (because they each have their own quirks), I have modified things here & there. But I am a firm believer in 'learning to walk (or crawl) before you can run'. Especially when I am dealing with living creatures.

I will not go over the original questions again since everyone has done such a great job with them. I will only say that I feed all of my 15 BPs F/T without refusals. They all strike and coil. I prefer to feed F/T. IMHO, it is a matter of preference. If you prefer to feed live & are willing to sit there and watch to make sure there are no injuries (because there can & have been. This is not the wild. The snake is TRAPPED in a relatively small enclosure with a scared rodent), then go ahead and feed live. If you prefer to feed F/T and are willing to take the time to thouroughly defrost the prey item and to mimic live prey for the snake, then go ahead and feed F/T. I don't really think one way is better than the other. The success of the feeding method lies in the manner in which it is executed. An unattended live feeding is a possible injury (maybe death) waiting to happen. A partially thawed prey item is indigestion (possibly death) waiting to happen.

I do not use hides in my enclosures; although, I do not keep my ball pythons in glass aquariums either. I keep all of my ball pythons in tubs (rack systems.) These tubs are tight, and dark, so I do not believe that hides are necessary.

At one time, I had a ball python that I kept in a 20 long glass enclosure. At about six years of age, I moved him into a 90 glass aquarium with one hide on the hot side. He was fine for about two weeks, but then he stopped eating. After about two months, I added a hide to the cool side, which was not the same type as the other hide. He used the second hide occasionally. He still would not eat. He did not eat for approximately six to eight months. I decided to move him into a rack system, because people told me that it may help. By the end of that week, he was eating again. He has eaten every two weeks since then. That was about two years ago.

At this point, I own 34 ball pythons, which I house in tubs. All eat without issue.

I will not comment on the use of hides, because I do not use them. I will say that if a ball python becomes stress out, he or she will not eat. I do know that if a ball python is kept in a large glass aquarium, it will most likely become stressed out.

I feed all of my ball pythons live rats, and none has ever been harmed. I do not feed them anything larger than small rats.

Hope this answers your questions.

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

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This is an excellent thread Jimmy. Thank you for bringing these points up. I agree with what others have said already, but would like to add something that hasn't been mentioned (or I missed when reading) in regard to #2. Often, the bigger the enclosure, the more difficult it is to keep the temperature gradient and humidity constant and in the proper ranges. If the snake doesn't have these choices available to him/her, he/she is likely to go off feed just as if they are freaking out because they have nowhere to hide. This suggestion is often made in order to prevent both of these potential problems.

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Originally Posted by casperca

This is an excellent thread Jimmy. Thank you for bringing these points up. I agree with what others have said already, but would like to add something that hasn't been mentioned (or I missed when reading) in regard to #2. Often, the bigger the enclosure, the more difficult it is to keep the temperature gradient and humidity constant and in the proper ranges. If the snake doesn't have these choices available to him/her, he/she is likely to go off feed just as if they are freaking out because they have nowhere to hide. This suggestion is often made in order to prevent both of these potential problems.

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This might be true when in a glass tank, but it is not true when the snakes are housed in a reptile cage (RBI, AP, etc.) ;)

The information I am gathering from the posts thus far is two fold.

First, some good points have been made that many (if not every) ball python are different. For instance, Eddie Strong, Jr had a snake go off feed when moved to a large 90 gallon tank. This was regardless of the hides. However, ohyeahnow is an example of someone who uses different hides and the snakes are feeding fine. Also, Alicia Holmes is an example of someone who has enclosures as low as 75 degrees and and a hot spot that does not get up to 90 degrees (also with no apparent ill effects).

Second, I gather ones willingness to deviate from the norm will likely be followed by extra work. For example, a large glass enclosure is going to require more hydro and tweaking to maintain heat and humidity. It appears however, if these factors are met, a snake should be fine. The key however is that the keeper must be willing to take the time to maintain proper health.

So, if you exclude irresponsible hobbyists who will likely have poor animals regardless, do you think snakes (ball pythons in particular) are more resilient than we give them credit for. Now, when I say resilient, I do not mean if you put them in a bucket in the corner they will survive. What I mean is if things where done different would they thrive and not simply survive. Case in point, I received a ball python that was kept in a large glass enclosure that had one hide over a heat pad that only reached 76 degrees. The remainder of the enclosure stayed at a room temperature of what I measured to be 69 degrees. This snake ate like you wouldn't believe; never refusing a meal (I took the keepers word for it because it ate fine when I got it and it had a healthy weight). I did however change it's set-up to a warm hide of 90, an identical cool hide of 80 and an ambient temperature of 78. Is this case an exception to the rule?

Food for thought,

Jimmy

P.S. if I am just beating this to death and you want to drop the subject, let me know :D.

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

So, if you exclude irresponsible hobbyists who will likely have poor animals regardless, do you think snakes (ball pythons in particular) are more resilient than we give them credit for.

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Yes, I do believe that snakes are much more resilient than we give them credit for. I know that it is possible to keep snakes in room temperature, with low humidity, but I also believe that they will have a much more healthy life if they are kept in proper conditions. With low heat, they may not be able to digest their food properly. They would also digest their food much more slowly. This would cause them to go off food because they would not be hungry. They would have bad sheds, which could cause them to stress out. Without hides, they would likely become stressed out, and stop eating.

All in all, I think that it is possible to keep them in improper conditions, but I do not see any reason too. I want my pets to be as happy as possible, so I keep them in the correct conditions.

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Originally Posted by Ophiuchus

Its a hobby, not a science.

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I would argue that our hobby and science can be one in the same. Science does not mean what many think it means. Science is first, hypothesizing a theory (snakes need two identical hides). Second, testing that theory (providing different hides). Third, measuring the results (is the snake still eating/shedding). Finally, if your theory is right you can test to see if there are any other variables that influenced the results (one of the different hides was too small/big). Also, if your theory is wrong you could try to replicate the 'experiment' with other snakes and see what you get.

The key to remember is that even scientific theory is rarely 'done'. There is always other things that can be done to alter the experiment thus altering the results.

I am not currently interested in breeding snakes. To keep me interested in the hobby I would have to have a lot of money to keep buying/housing more and more snakes. For this reason, I choose to experiment with the ones I already have. That is how I define my hobby. I think it is cool :D and perhaps some day I will give breeding a try (I would like the challenge of breeding green tree pythons).

Jimmy

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

I would argue that our hobby and science can be one in the same. Science does not mean what many think it means. Science is first, hypothesizing a theory (snakes need two identical hides). Second, testing that theory (providing different hides). Third, measuring the results (is the snake still eating/shedding). Finally, if your theory is right you can test to see if there are any other variables that influenced the results (one of the different hides was too small/big). Also, if your theory is wrong you could try to replicate the 'experiment' with other snakes and see what you get.

The key to remember is that even scientific theory is rarely 'done'. There is always other things that can be done to alter the experiment thus altering the results.

I am not currently interested in breeding snakes. To keep me interested in the hobby I would have to have a lot of money to keep buying/housing more and more snakes. For this reason, I choose to experiment with the ones I already have. That is how I define my hobby. I think it is cool :D and perhaps some day I will give breeding a try (I would like the challenge of breeding green tree pythons).

Jimmy

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I agree with you here. I do not see anything wrong with experimenting, as long as you are not harming the animals, which it does not sound to me like you are at all.

Breeding is definitely great. I love it. I bred balls last season, and am in the process of breeding my boas. It is an expensive hobby, but I love it.

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

I would argue that our hobby and science can be one in the same. Science does not mean what many think it means. Science is first, hypothesizing a theory (snakes need two identical hides). Second, testing that theory (providing different hides). Third, measuring the results (is the snake still eating/shedding). Finally, if your theory is right you can test to see if there are any other variables that influenced the results (one of the different hides was too small/big). Also, if your theory is wrong you could try to replicate the 'experiment' with other snakes and see what you get.

The key to remember is that even scientific theory is rarely 'done'. There is always other things that can be done to alter the experiment thus altering the results.

I am not currently interested in breeding snakes. To keep me interested in the hobby I would have to have a lot of money to keep buying/housing more and more snakes. For this reason, I choose to experiment with the ones I already have. That is how I define my hobby. I think it is cool :D and perhaps some day I will give breeding a try (I would like the challenge of breeding green tree pythons).

Jimmy

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I can agree with that. Like I said, when we're dealing with such relatively resilient animals such as snakes, there's any number of ways to achieve your goal (that being a healthy snake that sheds and eats good). Kind of an "ends justifies the means."

I recently experimented myself.

Its long been a general rule that all lizards, with the exception of geckos, require UV lighting. However, in recent years, talking with several keepers, their consensus was that many lizards do not require it, and they have great success with their animals eating and breeding.

So when we acquires a baby BTS in January, I didn't provide him with any UVB, In fact, he's never been exposed to it to this day. He is practically fullgrown and not even a year old!

Now, there are definitely other factors to consider, such as providing a proper diet. But my conclusion (along with others) is that UV lighting isn't as critical as originally believed.

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

Okay, perhaps I approached this the wrong way and for that I apologize. I get the impression that I sounded a little arrogant or something. I still want to discuss the main points. Let me reword this:

Title: Looking to expand my skills.

I have often heard people on the internet say:

1. Ball pythons need to have two identical hides. One on the cool side and one on the hot side. This is because if they prefer one over the other they will not thermoregulate properly. They will choose security over their own well being.

2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

Are there other ways to provide a naturalistic enclosure for ball pythons without sacrificing their health or security. If so, what are they. This would be a good thread to debate the pros and cons of the standard method of husbandry and any other options.

Jimmy

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Im sure its already been said but, i believe you can house a ball python in any enclosure you want too, as long as you provide the required temp/humidity needs of the animal, with some secure hides here and there, and it should do fine. Its all just easier to manage in a plastic tub for most. Great thread by the way!:gj:

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Originally Posted by Ophiuchus

So when we acquires a baby BTS in January, I didn't provide him with any UVB, In fact, he's never been exposed to it to this day. He is practically fullgrown and not even a year old!

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Wow. That is a bold one. Are there ways one can determine they have enough vitamin D (which I assume you are supplementing). Can one determine if it has bones strong enough to support it into adulthood and beyond. I have minimal experience with lizards (I had a bearded dragon for 5 months).

Very interesting none the less.

Jimmy

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

Wow. That is a bold one. Are there ways one can determine they have enough vitamin D (which I assume you are supplementing). Can one determine if it has bones strong enough to support it into adulthood and beyond. I have minimal experience with lizards (I had a bearded dragon for 5 months).

Very interesting none the less.

Jimmy

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Hard to say if they're getting "enough' because no one really knows how much is "enough" to begin with.

He gets fed Zupreme canned monitor diet (which says it already contains vD3) mixed with veggies 2x weekly and once a week, he just gets a little veggie salad with some vitamins sprinkled on top.

He is large, but not obese. And I always examine him to make sure he is not suffering from any form of MBD.

I've talked with several breeders doing this with bearded dragons and monitors, providing no exposure to UV lighting, and their animals breed like crazy and produce viable offspring year after year.

I only have one BP so far, and she has one hide. It is big enough for her to be on the warm side or the cool side, or somewhere in between. Many will say it is too big, and I should offer two smaller hides. But I will stick with my method until I have a snake who shows signs of stress from not having 2 smaller identical hides.

It's all about what works for you and your snakes. We do what we can to look for signs of stress and signs of comfort, but we can only do so much. Until we figure out a way to communicate with animals doctor doolittle style we just have to observe and interpret behaviors. There are many methods to keep a BP successfully, and you need to use trial and error to find what works for you. Aside from some basic requirements there are very few black and white answers to BP husbandry questions. Most are in that grey area that is subject to personal opinion and preference.

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Originally Posted by starmom

This might be true when in a glass tank, but it is not true when the snakes are housed in a reptile cage (RBI, AP, etc.) ;)

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Right you are. :P I was thinking of a glass tank when I wrote this.

Like has been said many times, I just want to reiterate.

This website is gifted with many very experienced and helpful people, but anyone that has been here for more than a few months understands just how quickly this particular forum is growing on a day to day basis.

There are numerous new people to the hobby coming every single day with, what may seem like, the simplest of questions. Like has already been said by JLC and Bruce, many of us here are really trying the K.I.S.S (keep it simple!) method when addressing issues with the new comers.

So I guess this is where I'm a little confused... everyone here has beaten the horse to death on the two questions you asked, and it fits into the KISS style of keeping it from being complicated to better help the new comers have the best start in their new hobby.

That's I guess where I'm confused by you continuing to pose the same questions or "but if"'s after so many people have given some very level headed input, as if you really DO want us to convince YOU.

Any advice I ever give is in the respect that I am assuming the person I am responding to knows very little besides that a snake has no legs. Keeping the info simple when it's a very widely tried and true method is in no way regurge, but credit to those that have taken our hobby a thousand times farther than it was 10 years ago.

There will always be people who sometimes over enthusiastically propogate one kind of way as the "RULES", but really, with the animals needs and requirements for thriving always in the forefront, you can't rightly go too wrong with trying new things.

As always, the key word is the animal's "needs". I feel that in respect to furthering what we know about these animals, every person should have a basic understanding and be able to read their animals to know when they are suffering, or simply surviving, VS thriving in our care.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

The information I am gathering from the posts thus far is two fold.

First, some good points have been made that many (if not every) ball python are different. For instance, Eddie Strong, Jr had a snake go off feed when moved to a large 90 gallon tank. This was regardless of the hides. However, ohyeahnow is an example of someone who uses different hides and the snakes are feeding fine. Also, Alicia Holmes is an example of someone who has enclosures as low as 75 degrees and and a hot spot that does not get up to 90 degrees (also with no apparent ill effects).

Second, I gather ones willingness to deviate from the norm will likely be followed by extra work. For example, a large glass enclosure is going to require more hydro and tweaking to maintain heat and humidity. It appears however, if these factors are met, a snake should be fine. The key however is that the keeper must be willing to take the time to maintain proper health.

So, if you exclude irresponsible hobbyists who will likely have poor animals regardless, do you think snakes (ball pythons in particular) are more resilient than we give them credit for. Now, when I say resilient, I do not mean if you put them in a bucket in the corner they will survive. What I mean is if things where done different would they thrive and not simply survive. Case in point, I received a ball python that was kept in a large glass enclosure that had one hide over a heat pad that only reached 76 degrees. The remainder of the enclosure stayed at a room temperature of what I measured to be 69 degrees. This snake ate like you wouldn't believe; never refusing a meal (I took the keepers word for it because it ate fine when I got it and it had a healthy weight). I did however change it's set-up to a warm hide of 90, an identical cool hide of 80 and an ambient temperature of 78. Is this case an exception to the rule?

Food for thought,

Jimmy

P.S. if I am just beating this to death and you want to drop the subject, let me know :D.

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I'll continue with this at the risk of beating the dead horse... Because I do think these are interesting points, and I enjoy discussing them.

I believe what you are now talking about is individual snake husbandry. Sure, it's very possible that you have a ball python that will eat and shed perfectly fine at 76 degrees. In fact, ball pythons are known to be a particularly hardy "beginner" snake species that can tolerate a range of temperatures.

But imagine now that you're a breeder, and you have 200 snakes. At what temperature would you set all of your thermostats? Say you decide to set them all to 76. What do you imagine your success rate will be? Probably you'll have some snakes, like yours, that will be able to eat and live at 76 degrees. However, you'll probably have a lot more issues with snakes not eating, shedding poorly, and developing infections. I'm sure that in the very early days of ball python breeding, there were people that tried keeping all their balls at 76 degrees and found that it didn't give them the highest percentage of healthy animals. The point is, the temperature ranges that you see repeated on this forum are not pulled out of a hat - these temperatures are the ones at which you are MOST likely to have success raising a healthy animal.

Now you might say, "if he's healthy, can't I just go on keeping him at 76?" I'd argue that what you can SEE is the ball python eating. But what you can't see is that he might have a lot more trouble digesting it at this low temperature, putting him at risk for regurgitation.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier: Stick with the tried-and-true methods put forth by longtime hobbyists, and once you are comfortable with them, then maybe you can try tweaking things.

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

Okay, I write this post with respect and a willingness to learn. However, I am having a hard time believing the following "recycled" statements (both of which I happen to abide by):

1. Ball pythons need to have two identical hides. One on the cool side and one on the hot side. This is because if they prefer one over the other they will not thermoregulate properly. They will choose security over their own well being.

2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

I would argue against these two theories based on the life of ball pythons in their natural environments. Having said that, I understand there are things you would not allow to happen with captive animals that happen in the wild.

For instance, I understand that many feed f/t because of the fear of rodents biting the snake. In this case, the naturalist would argue that if they eat live in the wild they should be able to do the same in captivity? In theory, this is true. Snakes in the wild feed live and probably get bitten. The difference is, in the wild the snake dies and balance is maintained. However, in captivity the owner is out anywhere from 100-20,000 dollars! So, in that case I could see how the natural environment theory would not hold any water.

Nevertheless, I do not know if there is evidence or a good theory that could suggest that BP's in the wild are dying/living shorter lives because they could not find an identical burrow to hide in or that they will not eat anymore because they left their 3 - 4.5 square foot territory.

I am open to some new, out of the box, non recycled theories that would support the aforementioned statements (the hides, enclosure size and even the live vs. f/t statements).

I understand this post is long but I feel it could spark new knowledge about the hobby we all love so much.

Peace out,

Jimmy

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TOO FRIGGIN FUNNY... But I agree A snake only needs one hide(if Any) to thermo regulate a snake has to go to a warm spot. who says it has to be in a buttow or under a flower pot.

I understand that Bp's are reclusive but again to Jimmy's point a snake never died because it lefe it's 4 ft b4 four foot space i.e. They hunt if necessary (I know they usually ambush). also think of where they are from Africa!! that's alot of space not just a small area..

any way that's my two cents.. lol Great post Jimmy!

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Originally Posted by icygirl

Now you might say, "if he's healthy, can't I just go on keeping him at 76?" I'd argue that what you can SEE is the ball python eating. But what you can't see is that he might have a lot more trouble digesting it at this low temperature, putting him at risk for regurgitation.

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This is true. Who is to say that the aforementioned snake that was kept at 76 would live a long life had I not made changes.

Having said that, are there many people who have had many snakes for the duration of their healthy lives (i.e. "I had the same 10 snakes for 25 years before they died")? I would love to hear the evolution of you care over the years.

Also, is the condition/frequency of fecal mater a good indication of how well a snake is digesting? When I say condition, I am not referring to tests done by vets. Rather, I am talking about nice, thick and solid logs :D.

Jimmy

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Originally Posted by SamuraiZr0

also think of where they are from Africa!! that's alot of space not just a small area..

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Africa is large, no doubt. But there's now way you can perfectly simulate the type of environment BPs naturally dwell in (and I'm not just talking about landscaping, either).

As someone mentioned earlier, a BP may spend its entire life in an area the size of a football field or two. A lot of space, you say, compared to a 32-qt tub. However, these snakes move about out of necessity, whether to hunt, breed, escape predators, etc.

If someone went out to the Serengeti (or wherever these snakes hail from), dropped an ASF in the burrow once a month, stood guard with a rifle against predators and at the right time of the year, threw a snake of the opposite sex down the hole.....I would wager that BP would rarely if ever venture out of its burrow. After all, why would it, if all its needs were brought to its doorstep in a routinely manner?

So unless you planning to build a football field-sized enclosure, landscape it with termite mounds and rodent burrows to look like the African savannah, establish a colony of gerbils in there, and then put your BP in there.....the "well, they have tons of open space in Africa" argument doesn't fly, IMHO.

If all its needs are met, you don't need a huge cage to make your BP happy and healthy.

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Originally Posted by Ophiuchus

I would wager that BP would rarely if ever venture out of its burrow. After all, why would it, if all its needs were brought to its doorstep in a routinely manner?

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Are we using the hides we provide or the enclosure (tub or otherwise) to simulate a rodents burrow. I ask this because it is not uncommon to see well fed snakes outside of their hide exploring. Especially at night.

Jimmy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

Are we using the hides we provide or the enclosure (tub or otherwise) to simulate a rodents burrow. I ask this because it is not uncommon to see well fed snakes outside of their hide exploring. Especially at night.

Jimmy

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I would say the entire tub.

I'm beginning to think the "requirement for hides" probably came about from the usage of glass tanks in the earlier years of the hobby. An enclosed, dark tub eliminates the need for additional hides one would normally suggest for a spacious open aquarium.

\And when you say "well-fed", are you referring to a snake that just ate or snakes that feed well in general?

I know every snake I have ever owned that just ate, immediately goes to hide, unless they get a quick drink of water first. The only time I see snakes become really active outside their hides is when they're hungry or getting a shed off.

There are some very well put points in this thread and all in a very respectful manner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmyfoxca

So, if you exclude irresponsible hobbyists who will likely have poor animals regardless, do you think snakes (ball pythons in particular) are more resilient than we give them credit for. Now, when I say resilient, I do not mean if you put them in a bucket in the corner they will survive. What I mean is if things where done different would they thrive and not simply survive. Case in point, I received a ball python that was kept in a large glass enclosure that had one hide over a heat pad that only reached 76 degrees. The remainder of the enclosure stayed at a room temperature of what I measured to be 69 degrees. This snake ate like you wouldn't believe; never refusing a meal (I took the keepers word for it because it ate fine when I got it and it had a healthy weight). I did however change it's set-up to a warm hide of 90, an identical cool hide of 80 and an ambient temperature of 78. Is this case an exception to the rule?

Food for thought,

Jimmy

P.S. if I am just beating this to death and you want to drop the subject, let me know :D.

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I don't remember anyone else mentioning anything about the possibility of long term effects. Someone said that the low temperature might cause them to not be able to digest their prey properly, or at the very least, the low belly temperature would slow down their digestion. A snake may be housed under specific conditions, such as a lower basking and ambient temperature, for a long period of time with no apparent ill effects. Since Ball Pythons can live over 40 years, I'd think that conditions like those may cause health problems later in life. Perhaps they'd experience digestive problems from years and years of poor digestion due to the lack of proper belly heat?

When I was a kid I never heard of f/t. Everyone in the herp society fed live, as did the bioligist at the local college. I did this for years and never had a problem. The only reason I feed f/t is to reduce the chance of parasites. I also do not trust local pet shops to much, and that is where I would have to get live. I prefer to feed live, I like the hunt. I feed f/t for my snakes health.

I have no problem with temps or humidity in any of my aquariums. Of course three sides and the top is wraped in refectix. The top has "hatch doors" to allow for air circulation and to get my humidity LOWER if needed. I know tanks are hard to keep in humidity and maintain ambient temps, but my tanks do both just fine.

Some of snakes go into their hides after feeding, some never do as if roaming for more food (regardless of how well fed they are) and one is so unpredictable you never know what he might do. His most frequent act after feeding is to curl up in his water bowl. Couldn't begin to figure out why.