I am not a believer -do you think you can convert me?

[casperca]

This might be true when in a glass tank, but it is not true when the snakes are housed in a reptile cage (RBI, AP, etc.)

Right you are. I was thinking of a glass tank when I wrote this.

[littleindiangirl]

Like has been said many times, I just want to reiterate.

This website is gifted with many very experienced and helpful people, but anyone that has been here for more than a few months understands just how quickly this particular forum is growing on a day to day basis.

There are numerous new people to the hobby coming every single day with, what may seem like, the simplest of questions. Like has already been said by JLC and Bruce, many of us here are really trying the K.I.S.S (keep it simple!) method when addressing issues with the new comers.

So I guess this is where I'm a little confused... everyone here has beaten the horse to death on the two questions you asked, and it fits into the KISS style of keeping it from being complicated to better help the new comers have the best start in their new hobby.

That's I guess where I'm confused by you continuing to pose the same questions or "but if"'s after so many people have given some very level headed input, as if you really DO want us to convince YOU.

Any advice I ever give is in the respect that I am assuming the person I am responding to knows very little besides that a snake has no legs. Keeping the info simple when it's a very widely tried and true method is in no way regurge, but credit to those that have taken our hobby a thousand times farther than it was 10 years ago.

There will always be people who sometimes over enthusiastically propogate one kind of way as the "RULES", but really, with the animals needs and requirements for thriving always in the forefront, you can't rightly go too wrong with trying new things.

As always, the key word is the animal's "needs". I feel that in respect to furthering what we know about these animals, every person should have a basic understanding and be able to read their animals to know when they are suffering, or simply surviving, VS thriving in our care.

[icygirl]

The information I am gathering from the posts thus far is two fold.

First, some good points have been made that many (if not every) ball python are different. For instance, Eddie Strong, Jr had a snake go off feed when moved to a large 90 gallon tank. This was regardless of the hides. However, ohyeahnow is an example of someone who uses different hides and the snakes are feeding fine. Also, Alicia Holmes is an example of someone who has enclosures as low as 75 degrees and and a hot spot that does not get up to 90 degrees (also with no apparent ill effects).

Second, I gather ones willingness to deviate from the norm will likely be followed by extra work. For example, a large glass enclosure is going to require more hydro and tweaking to maintain heat and humidity. It appears however, if these factors are met, a snake should be fine. The key however is that the keeper must be willing to take the time to maintain proper health.

So, if you exclude irresponsible hobbyists who will likely have poor animals regardless, do you think snakes (ball pythons in particular) are more resilient than we give them credit for. Now, when I say resilient, I do not mean if you put them in a bucket in the corner they will survive. What I mean is if things where done different would they thrive and not simply survive. Case in point, I received a ball python that was kept in a large glass enclosure that had one hide over a heat pad that only reached 76 degrees. The remainder of the enclosure stayed at a room temperature of what I measured to be 69 degrees. This snake ate like you wouldn't believe; never refusing a meal (I took the keepers word for it because it ate fine when I got it and it had a healthy weight). I did however change it's set-up to a warm hide of 90, an identical cool hide of 80 and an ambient temperature of 78. Is this case an exception to the rule?

Food for thought,

Jimmy

P.S. if I am just beating this to death and you want to drop the subject, let me know .

I'll continue with this at the risk of beating the dead horse... Because I do think these are interesting points, and I enjoy discussing them.

I believe what you are now talking about is individual snake husbandry. Sure, it's very possible that you have a ball python that will eat and shed perfectly fine at 76 degrees. In fact, ball pythons are known to be a particularly hardy "beginner" snake species that can tolerate a range of temperatures.

But imagine now that you're a breeder, and you have 200 snakes. At what temperature would you set all of your thermostats? Say you decide to set them all to 76. What do you imagine your success rate will be? Probably you'll have some snakes, like yours, that will be able to eat and live at 76 degrees. However, you'll probably have a lot more issues with snakes not eating, shedding poorly, and developing infections. I'm sure that in the very early days of ball python breeding, there were people that tried keeping all their balls at 76 degrees and found that it didn't give them the highest percentage of healthy animals. The point is, the temperature ranges that you see repeated on this forum are not pulled out of a hat - these temperatures are the ones at which you are MOST likely to have success raising a healthy animal.

Now you might say, "if he's healthy, can't I just go on keeping him at 76?" I'd argue that what you can SEE is the ball python eating. But what you can't see is that he might have a lot more trouble digesting it at this low temperature, putting him at risk for regurgitation.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier: Stick with the tried-and-true methods put forth by longtime hobbyists, and once you are comfortable with them, then maybe you can try tweaking things.

[SamuraiZr0]

Okay, I write this post with respect and a willingness to learn. However, I am having a hard time believing the following "recycled" statements (both of which I happen to abide by):

1. Ball pythons need to have two identical hides. One on the cool side and one on the hot side. This is because if they prefer one over the other they will not thermoregulate properly. They will choose security over their own well being.

2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

I would argue against these two theories based on the life of ball pythons in their natural environments. Having said that, I understand there are things you would not allow to happen with captive animals that happen in the wild.

For instance, I understand that many feed f/t because of the fear of rodents biting the snake. In this case, the naturalist would argue that if they eat live in the wild they should be able to do the same in captivity? In theory, this is true. Snakes in the wild feed live and probably get bitten. The difference is, in the wild the snake dies and balance is maintained. However, in captivity the owner is out anywhere from 100-20,000 dollars! So, in that case I could see how the natural environment theory would not hold any water.

Nevertheless, I do not know if there is evidence or a good theory that could suggest that BP's in the wild are dying/living shorter lives because they could not find an identical burrow to hide in or that they will not eat anymore because they left their 3 - 4.5 square foot territory.

I am open to some new, out of the box, non recycled theories that would support the aforementioned statements (the hides, enclosure size and even the live vs. f/t statements).

I understand this post is long but I feel it could spark new knowledge about the hobby we all love so much.

Peace out,

Jimmy

TOO FRIGGIN FUNNY... But I agree A snake only needs one hide(if Any) to thermo regulate a snake has to go to a warm spot. who says it has to be in a buttow or under a flower pot.

I understand that Bp's are reclusive but again to Jimmy's point a snake never died because it lefe it's 4 ft b4 four foot space i.e. They hunt if necessary (I know they usually ambush). also think of where they are from Africa!! that's alot of space not just a small area..

any way that's my two cents.. lol Great post Jimmy!

[jimmyfoxca]

Now you might say, "if he's healthy, can't I just go on keeping him at 76?" I'd argue that what you can SEE is the ball python eating. But what you can't see is that he might have a lot more trouble digesting it at this low temperature, putting him at risk for regurgitation.

This is true. Who is to say that the aforementioned snake that was kept at 76 would live a long life had I not made changes.

Having said that, are there many people who have had many snakes for the duration of their healthy lives (i.e. "I had the same 10 snakes for 25 years before they died")? I would love to hear the evolution of you care over the years.

Also, is the condition/frequency of fecal mater a good indication of how well a snake is digesting? When I say condition, I am not referring to tests done by vets. Rather, I am talking about nice, thick and solid logs .

Jimmy

[Ophiuchus]

also think of where they are from Africa!! that's alot of space not just a small area..

Africa is large, no doubt. But there's now way you can perfectly simulate the type of environment BPs naturally dwell in (and I'm not just talking about landscaping, either).

As someone mentioned earlier, a BP may spend its entire life in an area the size of a football field or two. A lot of space, you say, compared to a 32-qt tub. However, these snakes move about out of necessity, whether to hunt, breed, escape predators, etc.

If someone went out to the Serengeti (or wherever these snakes hail from), dropped an ASF in the burrow once a month, stood guard with a rifle against predators and at the right time of the year, threw a snake of the opposite sex down the hole.....I would wager that BP would rarely if ever venture out of its burrow. After all, why would it, if all its needs were brought to its doorstep in a routinely manner?

So unless you planning to build a football field-sized enclosure, landscape it with termite mounds and rodent burrows to look like the African savannah, establish a colony of gerbils in there, and then put your BP in there.....the "well, they have tons of open space in Africa" argument doesn't fly, IMHO.

If all its needs are met, you don't need a huge cage to make your BP happy and healthy.

[jimmyfoxca]

I would wager that BP would rarely if ever venture out of its burrow. After all, why would it, if all its needs were brought to its doorstep in a routinely manner?

Are we using the hides we provide or the enclosure (tub or otherwise) to simulate a rodents burrow. I ask this because it is not uncommon to see well fed snakes outside of their hide exploring. Especially at night.

Jimmy

[Ophiuchus]

Are we using the hides we provide or the enclosure (tub or otherwise) to simulate a rodents burrow. I ask this because it is not uncommon to see well fed snakes outside of their hide exploring. Especially at night.

Jimmy

I would say the entire tub.

I'm beginning to think the "requirement for hides" probably came about from the usage of glass tanks in the earlier years of the hobby. An enclosed, dark tub eliminates the need for additional hides one would normally suggest for a spacious open aquarium.

\And when you say "well-fed", are you referring to a snake that just ate or snakes that feed well in general?

I know every snake I have ever owned that just ate, immediately goes to hide, unless they get a quick drink of water first. The only time I see snakes become really active outside their hides is when they're hungry or getting a shed off.

[LGL]

There are some very well put points in this thread and all in a very respectful manner.

So, if you exclude irresponsible hobbyists who will likely have poor animals regardless, do you think snakes (ball pythons in particular) are more resilient than we give them credit for. Now, when I say resilient, I do not mean if you put them in a bucket in the corner they will survive. What I mean is if things where done different would they thrive and not simply survive. Case in point, I received a ball python that was kept in a large glass enclosure that had one hide over a heat pad that only reached 76 degrees. The remainder of the enclosure stayed at a room temperature of what I measured to be 69 degrees. This snake ate like you wouldn't believe; never refusing a meal (I took the keepers word for it because it ate fine when I got it and it had a healthy weight). I did however change it's set-up to a warm hide of 90, an identical cool hide of 80 and an ambient temperature of 78. Is this case an exception to the rule?

Food for thought,

Jimmy

P.S. if I am just beating this to death and you want to drop the subject, let me know .

I don't remember anyone else mentioning anything about the possibility of long term effects. Someone said that the low temperature might cause them to not be able to digest their prey properly, or at the very least, the low belly temperature would slow down their digestion. A snake may be housed under specific conditions, such as a lower basking and ambient temperature, for a long period of time with no apparent ill effects. Since Ball Pythons can live over 40 years, I'd think that conditions like those may cause health problems later in life. Perhaps they'd experience digestive problems from years and years of poor digestion due to the lack of proper belly heat?

[ohyeahnow]

When I was a kid I never heard of f/t. Everyone in the herp society fed live, as did the bioligist at the local college. I did this for years and never had a problem. The only reason I feed f/t is to reduce the chance of parasites. I also do not trust local pet shops to much, and that is where I would have to get live. I prefer to feed live, I like the hunt. I feed f/t for my snakes health.

I have no problem with temps or humidity in any of my aquariums. Of course three sides and the top is wraped in refectix. The top has "hatch doors" to allow for air circulation and to get my humidity LOWER if needed. I know tanks are hard to keep in humidity and maintain ambient temps, but my tanks do both just fine.

Some of snakes go into their hides after feeding, some never do as if roaming for more food (regardless of how well fed they are) and one is so unpredictable you never know what he might do. His most frequent act after feeding is to curl up in his water bowl. Couldn't begin to figure out why.