is there a lethal gene?

is there a lethal gene when breeding certain colors of ball pythons together?

(I breed chinchillas) and if you breed a White (Mosaic or Silver) chinchilla with another White (Mosaic or Silver) chinchilla, you create a lethal gene that kills homo white babies (pure white).

So you either get a regular grey baby or a White (Mosaic or Silver) baby.

So basically i was wondering if that happens with certain colors of ball pythons too?

just curious :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by chinchillachic18

is there a lethal gene when breeding certain colors of ball pythons together?

(I breed chinchillas) and if you breed a White (Mosaic or Silver) chinchilla with another White (Mosaic or Silver) chinchilla, you create a lethal gene that kills homo white babies (pure white).

So you either get a regular grey baby or a White (Mosaic or Silver) baby.

So basically i was wondering if that happens with certain colors of ball pythons too?

just curious :rolleyes:

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Hmm, well I know that there has never been a homozygous Spider ball python created, as they have never survived.
I don't know about Pinstripes though. I think with unusual dominant genes, it gets tricky.

Hi,

There are certainly a couple of combo's that might qualify from all I've read - there is, as mentioned, the strange dearth of homozygous spiders and also the "failure to thrive" problem with homozygous womas (pearl).

The last one seems to be ok in combination with other morphs though. :confused:

Anyone able to give any more info on those or others?


dr del

When you say they never survive what do you mean? Like they never hatch? or they do, but then die soon after

It's almost certain that Spider and Pinstripe genes are lethal when paired.

If they are truly dominant genes, then a Pin X Pin breeding should average 75% pinstripes, and 25% normals. Same with a Spider X Spider breeding.

If they are co-dominant, than only 50% of the offspring should be pinstripe, and 25% should be normal--25% should be missing (lethal). That should mean smaller average clutches than when the female is paired with a normal male.

Obviously it's not going to be easy to determine with such close odds, from the odds alone. But consider this--if the gene is truly dominant, then 25% of the pin or spider offspring born SHOULD BE super-pin or super-spider. Identical to a normal pin or spider, but producing 100% pin or spider offspring when bred to a normal. To the best of my knowledge, that has never happened--at least, no one has mentioned it.

If there are no super-pins, and no super-spiders, why? The only answer I can think of is that they never hatch.

I agree that the public proven homozygous spider is overdue but there still could be other explanations. Maybe it's not a very presentable snake or there has been even less interest by breeders who would post the results in producing one that you would think. But it does seem likely if not proven at this point that spider is homozygous lethal (could never actually be proven beyond all doubt).

However pinstripe just might be the first proven dominant ball python mutation. In the 8/9 Reptile Radio interview at 66 minutes in BHB told about a pin that produced 22 pinstripe offspring in a row with no normals. He didn't actually say that the females where all normal for pinstripe but if they where the odds of a heterozygous pinstripe doing that would be over 1 in 4 million. Even if all the females where pinstripes the odds of not producing a normal would have been 1 in 560 and I think it's more likely he was testing his possible homozygous pinstripe male with non pinstripe females. He indicated the animal did not look different than a normal (heterozygous) pinstripe but didn't say anything about its behavior but it apparently was able to grow to breeding size and is a fairly good breeder.

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It's almost certain that Spider and Pinstripe genes are lethal when paired.

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How is it lethal its called a "spinner"

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If there are no super-pins, and no super-spiders, why? The only answer I can think of is that they never hatch.

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Brian of BHB claims to have produced a super Pin it looks the same as a regular Pin but throws all pinstripe offspring when bred to a normal. Brian is not the type to lie so I believe him

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To the best of my knowledge, that has never happened--at least, no one has mentioned it.

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Or you did not listen when it was mentioned about Pinstripe ;)

I'm a bit confused because it's a bit early for me, but if yous are talking about what I think yous are, then I don't think the Powerball (Spotnose x Spotnose) should be left out. From what I've heard, none have yet survived.

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Originally Posted by RKO

I'm a bit confused because it's a bit early for me, but if yous are talking about what I think yous are, then I don't think the Powerball (Spotnose x Spotnose) should be left out. From what I've heard, none have yet survived.

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No.. its not Lethal the first one just had a box fall on it an killed it. Tracy told that on Reptile Radio. Its only fatal when you drop heavy objects on them. :D

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

No.. its not Lethal the first one just had a box fall on it an killed it. Tracy told that on Reptile Radio. Its only fatal when you drop heavy objects on them. :D

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Must have missed that episode. I swear somewhere I've seen a picture of two side by side...

What's heavy? My mom dropped a 5lb hide cave thing on a ball pythons head some 6-7 years ago. It survived, had a flat head for quite a while, but still did great.

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Originally Posted by RKO

I swear somewhere I've seen a picture of two side by side...

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Jeremy Stone has some that I think are about a year old now give or take (probably 08's as well) ... I know that he's posted a picture of two of his side by side on kingsnake a couple of times.

-adam

Summary Post:

Spider x Spider = Unknown ATM (From what I'm told it's just more spiders, but no super, but I intend to test this myself in the future)

Pin x Pin = Super Pin with no visible difference between a Normal Pin except that when bred to a normal they produce 100% Pins. (God I hope that's right...and I intend to try it out myself)

I want to see a powerball!

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I want to see a powerball!

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Ask and Ye shall receive.

http://www.boaconstrictor.com/produc.../powerball.jpg

ok so what are all the combinations that never live?

or usually never live

That I know of its just the Pearl aka super woma

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Ask and Ye shall receive.

http://www.boaconstrictor.com/produc.../powerball.jpg

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That thing's insane! And I agree, the only one not to consistently survive is the Pearl Ball.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

How is it lethal its called a "spinner"

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Freakie, I do believe Randy was reffering to when Spiders and Pins are paired with each other and not a combo of the two different genes. I could be wrong, however Randy knows his stuff when it comes to genetics and I believe the sentence just came out wrong.

As for lethal genes, well considering how long it took for breeders to admit to the neuro problems with spiders, I wouldn't expect strait answers on this one. The breeders with the largest sample sizes, that may have answers, generally don't want those types of things made public for fear of bashing a project and upsetting those that have already spent money with them. There will be plenty of opinions, but not enough hard facts to back them up either way.

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Originally Posted by karbogast

Freakie, I do believe Randy was referring to when Spiders and Pins are paired with each other and not a combo of the two different genes.

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Ok I'm lost Randy didn't say that. WingedWolfPsion said that and to my knowledge when Spiders and Pins are paired with each other you have a 1:4 shot at producing a combo called a Spinner or are you saying that the non-combo offspring die. If so that's also not true to my knowledge.

Yes, I took WingedWolfPsion to mean homozygous spider or homozygous pinstripe, not the spider and pinstripe combo, but I see how it could be taken that way.

The latest info tends to eliminate pinstripe and spotnose as lethal but it should probably be considered a possibility for any new mutation until proven otherwise. Hard to say for sure on the spider and woma. Maybe the homozygous spiders never hatch or perhaps could never even get shelled/laid (not sure enough of the reproductive cycle to know if that is possible) and maybe one will yet be produced and proven out at long last. There have been a few rumors of hope for pearls but I haven't heard of any for sure adults.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Ok I'm lost Randy didn't say that. WingedWolfPsion said that and to my knowledge when Spiders and Pins are paired with each other you have a 1:4 shot at producing a combo called a Spinner or are you saying that the non-combo offspring die. If so that's also not true to my knowledge.

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I think I got lost there for a second and thought you were quoting from Randys post. Your right spider by pin makes spinners, pins, spiders, and normals. The potential lethal breeding would be spider x spider or pin x pin in Wolfs example.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

That I know of its just the Pearl aka super woma

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That is the one I was thinking of. Don't know how spotnose popped in there...:confused:

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Originally Posted by karbogast

I think I got lost there for a second and thought you were quoting from Randys post. Your right spider by pin makes spinners, pins, spiders, and normals. The potential lethal breeding would be spider x spider or pin x pin in Wolfs example.

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It's almost certain that Spider and Pinstripe genes are lethal when paired.

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Donna,

This is the first I've ever heard that it is almost certain that they are lethal. In fact, Brian at BHB may have a super pin (not visibly different, but threw all pins this year, no normals). Where did you find the data that they are "almost certain" lethal when paired together? :confused:

The only lethal gene that I have heard confirmed is the pearl (super woma).

There's a spider that breed to normal and produce all spider. One of the big breeder told my friend that, so I guess there's such a thing as a super spider...unless he(the breeder) got lucky 3 years in a row. :D

Don't know about pin though.

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Originally Posted by hgrub

There's a spider that breed to normal and produce all spider. One of the big breeder told my friend that, so I guess there's such a thing as a super spider...unless he(the breeder) got lucky 3 years in a row. :D

Don't know about pin though.

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That is the problem, it is always info that comes from the friend of a freind of a freind of a "big breeder". Until I hear it from the big breeder him/her-self I will continue to take these claims with a huge grain of salt!

Since the spider and caramel problems finally became more public a couple years ago, and the efforts to cover up the issues were disscussed, I have a level of trust in the "biggies" that is on par with my trust that the government will be frugal with my tax dollars.:taz:

fair enough man, I would think the same too if someone say that.

Regarding the lethal gene, I heard the super lesser got it too. Some of them just drop dead for no reason. Can anyone tell me is it true?

So if someone actually produced one, how much would it be worth? O.O
im guessing that would be one lucky person!! lol

and is there such a thing as an all black ball python?

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Originally Posted by chinchillachic18

and is there such a thing as an all black ball python?

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The super black pastel is the darkest solid colored ball. You can probably make it darker with other genes that add hyper xanthism.

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Originally Posted by hgrub

There's a spider that breed to normal and produce all spider. One of the big breeder told my friend that, so I guess there's such a thing as a super spider...unless he(the breeder) got lucky 3 years in a row. :D

Don't know about pin though.

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I was also told that there is definitely a homozygous spider that throws only spiders, and that it has for at least 2 years. Like it was mentioned, it was third party info so take it for what it's worth.

Anyone have a pic of the pearl?

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

That I know of its just the Pearl aka super woma

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Though it has been made with another gene added IIRC. The Lesser Pearl was done by Kevin McCurley no?

Robin

http://livingartreptiles.tripod.com/id65.html

Look through for Super Woma

You can't take pictures from that site, which is why I have to post the link instead :P

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

No.. its not Lethal the first one just had a box fall on it an killed it. Tracy told that on Reptile Radio. Its only fatal when you drop heavy objects on them. :D

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Thats aweful!!!! Poor snakie!!:tears:

I think the most lethal gene is the "Rumor" gene.... the Rumor gene lurked in the form of the Powerball being a fatal gene for a long time. It comes in many other shades and forms as well.... :)

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

I think the most lethal gene is the "Rumor" gene.... the Rumor gene lurked in the form of the Powerball being a fatal gene for a long time. It comes in many other shades and forms as well.... :)

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Well I have spoken to NERD myself and was told that pure Pearl die they fail to thrive and just keel over for no apparent reason. But can be strengthened by adding other genes into it.
The rumor about the power ball came when the first one died. Now the truth was that it died cause of an accident not because of genetics.

That's great if Pin has been proven a true dominant. I'm not sure I believe it about spiders, though, my understanding was a lot of people have tried to make super-spiders, and failed. Proven super-spiders would be pretty valuable animals, considering how popular they are for making combos. (And no, I didn't mean Pin X spider in my previous post, Randy was correct in his interpretation--just to clarify).

Does anyone know of any pearl combos that do survive?

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Originally Posted by karbogast

Freakie, I do believe Randy was reffering to when Spiders and Pins are paired with each other and not a combo of the two different genes. I could be wrong, however Randy knows his stuff when it comes to genetics and I believe the sentence just came out wrong.

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As for lethal genes, well considering how long it took for breeders to admit to the neuro problems with spiders, I wouldn't expect strait answers on this one. The breeders with the largest sample sizes, that may have answers, generally don't want those types of things made public for fear of bashing a project and upsetting those that have already spent money with them. There will be plenty of opinions, but not enough hard facts to back them up either way.

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Can you tell me more about this spider problem? I was considering getting a spider tobreed with my pastel,now I am a little nervous about it!!:(

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Originally Posted by Anaconda6769

Can you tell me more about this spider problem? I was considering getting a spider tobreed with my pastel,now I am a little nervous about it!!:(

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its nothing to scare you away from spiders but they have a head wobble that most times is pretty minor.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ghlight=wobble

I am new to breeding this year,have a pastel/normal pair and was thinking next year a spider or cinnamon with my pastel male!

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Originally Posted by Anaconda6769

Can you tell me more about this spider problem? I was considering getting a spider tobreed with my pastel,now I am a little nervous about it!!:(

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A homozygous lethal mutation isn't necessarily a problem when you only work with heterozygous animals.

As far as I know, womas (the heterozygous version of that mutation) do just fine and make nice combos. I don't actually have any womas of my own but haven't heard of them being problem animals. It's the homozygous version (pearl) that you want to avoid making but that's easy enough; just don't breed two womas together.

It does turn out that spiders (most and maybe all are heterozygous for the spider mutation) have this tendency to flip their heads upside down but they can still be great feeders and breeders so it doesn't seem to bother most of them much at all. Breeding a spider to a pastel you have no chance of making a homozygous spider so even if spider does turn out to be a homozygous lethal mutation it doesn't mater in that breeding. The rumors of surviving homozygous spiders might even be true but if so you have to wonder why the owner(s) haven't gone public with their proven homozygous spiders. I strongly suspect that spider is homozygous lethal but it’s really hard to prove something by it’s absence so we might never know for sure.

Pearl is known to be the homozygous lethal form of the hidden-gene "woma" mutation. (At least according to this thread, it is not yet known if the homozygous regular woma has the same problem.) AFAIK, these animals are born but fail to thrive and die shortly after hatching. (I believe I recall being told that they are extra super loopy, with wicked neurological problems.)

For this reason, I would never want to breed HG woma x HG woma for ethical issues -- not wanting to produce an animal that I knew was going to die. (Of course, this is assuming I could get my hands on two HG womas ... :P)

However, I have never once heard of any sickly, dying snakes coming out of spider x spider or pinstripe x pinstripe clutches. I know breeders often keep secrets, but these morphs have been around awhile now, and plus, the lethal pearl isn't a secret anymore ...

This suggests to me that either A., spider and pinstripe are both dominant (which sounds like a possibility for pinstripe, but I tend to doubt it for spider) or B., the embryos are dying before hatching.

In chinchillas, the option in both homozygous lethal mutations (mosaic, and another mutation called TOV) is B.. There are no sickly homozygous mosaic or TOV babies; they just aren't born.

I do know people who have bred mosaic x mosaic without problems. However, I would never ever risk it. Why? Because in a mammal, if the baby dies before term, it gets resorbed, and can form "mummies" and block up the female's reproductive tract. Thus, when breeding mosaic x mosaic, not only is there a 25% chance that each baby will die pre-term (which is an especially big deal in an animal that gives birth to only 1-2 kits), but you run the risk of serious birth complications for your dam, as well.

In snakes, I dunno if I'd be as worried about that. Snakes pass slugs just as easily as they pass regular eggs, maybe even easier. So while you would, most likely, get 25% fewer viable babies in that clutch, the dead ones likely wouldn't hurt your dam.

So, unlike with chins, where mosaic x mosaic or TOV x TOV pairings should ALWAYS be avoided, I don't really know if there's any real reason to avoid spider x spider or pin x pin pairings ... Except that you may get 25% fewer viable babies. Your theoretical breakdown would be 25% normals, 50% spiders, 25% unborn.

Of course, even if these genes were true dominant, and not homozygous lethal, and there WAS a homozygous spider or homozygous pinstripe ... As a breeder, I don't know if I'd want to produce those anyway. Why? Because there's no way to tell the difference between the heterozygous spiders and the more valuable homozygous spiders. They'd all be, basically, "possible het normal."

So, your spider x spider clutch would be, in theory, 25% normal, 75% "possible homozygous spiders" ... And they'd all just look like normal spiders.

Whereas pairing a spider with the cheapest morph around, the pastel, has a theoretical yield of 25% normals, 25% spiders, 25% pastels and 25% bumblebees -- coming down in price, but still more valuable than a spider alone, still a DANG hot looking snake and integral to some really kickass triple combo morphs.

So, while I'm not really sure what I'll be pairing my spider gal with when she's ready ... It wont be another spider, regardless of the true nature of the homozygous spider form.

WOW:O I just wanna say great thread I am learning alot:gj:

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Originally Posted by Dr_Gonz0

Though it has been made with another gene added IIRC. The Lesser Pearl was done by Kevin McCurley no?

Robin

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Do you know that those snakes are still alive? I doubt it. That theory made zero sense. There is no reason genetically that a lesser or any other morph would make the pearls survive. It looks to be a doomed project though I would like to see someone try a pairing of one of nerds womas to one of the other lines.

Interesting read
http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

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Originally Posted by andyroof1979

Interesting read
http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

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The last post in this thread, before yours, was in August 2009 - almost 5.5 years ago. The thread was actually started in October 2008. Just sayin'... ;)

Lol...I thought it was '13. Nevertheless i am snowed in and bored so was doing some reading and came across the link i posted, as well as this thread and shared my find.

I am also now very confused. If a spider and pinstripe combo is lethal then how do you get a spinner blast. I was told that a spider bred to a pin stripe is a spinner, then the spinner to a pastel will give you a spinner blast, which is what i have. am i correct or is the breeding sequence wrong. I am new to snake genetics.